39800 From: Date: Tue Dec 14, 2004 0:23pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. In a message dated 12/14/2004 3:55:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/14/04 5:50:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I've heard you say this a lot. I've spent considerable time in photographic > > "dark rooms," though not recently, my recollection is that they were "pitch > black." > > In other cases, when light is present to some degree, and the eye lids are > closed, light still can go through the lids and show up as faint visual > impressions. I don't recall those impressions in the "dark room." > > Darkness to me is not seeing. Darkness is the abscence of seeing. (I'm not > > sure where you're coming from on this one.) With no light, there is nothing > > to see as there is no contact with visual object. Any analysis or > interpretation that might arise due to darkness is a mind-object. That's > the way I see it. > > TG > ======================== When I am not unconscious in a pitch black room, without an iota of light, and if it is a moment that I am neither hearing, tasting, touching, or experiencing mind-object, then I AM seeing - and the content is blackness. Hi Howard The lack-of-contact as a cause for experience? I don't know what you're taking but ship some out my way would ya? ;-) TG 39801 From: Date: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/14/04 8:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > The lack-of-contact as a cause for experience? I don't know what you're > taking but ship some out my way would ya? ;-) > > TG > ========================= Yeah, it's on the way, TG. Very good "stuff". I got into it when I gave up materialism and found the Buddha connection! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39802 From: AlanLam Date: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: Hello. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Alan Lam > wrote: > > > > Hi, I am a newbie here. Hope to learn from all of you. > > Thanks in advance and Metta. Alan > > > ... > > I'm glad you've made it here! I know we can all learn a lot from you > and your keen interest in the Dhamma too. > > With regard to your other message, unfortunately the list doesn't > accept attachments, so would you mind re-sending it as text in a > message? Many thanks in advance. > > I'd also be especially glad to hear where you live and anything > about your background interest in the Teachings. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s look forward to further discussion on the 'Jhana and Lay > Disciple' thread.... apologies for any delays in advance. > ========================== Hi, Sarah, Thanks indeed for your warmth. Noted message do not accept attachement. I am from here Bangkok itself and noted that the founder of this website being the Aunt (Khun Sujin) of a close friend. I am a Buddhist just like any of the readers here and look forward to learn from them. With best regards and Metta. Alan 39803 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Concept and Reality/Rob M. Friend Rob M., Good News! I got the book that you mailed to me: Concept and Reality; in Early Buddhist Thought by Bhikkhu Nanananda. I was surprised to get it so fast because the mail in Egypt is practically non-existent (I don't even have a mailbox!). It was the first time in a year that I have seen a mailman! ;-)) Anyway, thanks a lot and I will give it a read and post my impressions. Metta, James 39804 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:34pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hi James, and all > > > Sorry to have misquoted but I don't see a big difference > > between "What are you seeing now?" and "Is there seeing now?" The > > second is simply crouched in politically correct non-atta terms. > > I think there is a big difference. And if you think about it you will too. > Obviously, "what are you seeing now?" is the the thing seen, and "is there > seeing now?" > is the seeing-consciouness. (or "eye-consciousness" as translator below puts > it) You said a while back that you think knowing the difference > between nama and rupa is a very basic thing but unless you wrote the above > without > thinking carefully, you had better go back to square one on rupa and nama! Oh, thank you so much for pointing out my apparent stupidity! Or, sa my father would say, "Boy, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground!" LOL! > > I'm sure you've read the Fire Sutta: > > "The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, > eye-contact is burning" > > Phil : Which of the above are nama and which are rupa? Do you see the > difference between those > two questions now? Ah...ah...ah...next question please. ;-) > > "also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or > neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its > indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning > with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I > say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with > lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs." > > Phil: People here have said that "the flavour of Abhidhamma is anatta." To > me these days, it seems the flavour > of Dhamma in general is burning! Proliferation. Effluents. All this lunging > and leaping and slithering of the mind > in pursuit of objects and thoughts that please, all this mental movement > that represents the strengthening > of the roots of lust, hate and delusion. Now you're speaking my language!! > > K Sujin is just one of many Dhamma teachers who help us in one of many > different ways to see into > this process. Her question is very helpful for this reason, though since as > you say it is a bit like a koan > it can be helpful to different people in different ways. For me, it helps in > understanding proliferation. For others > it will help in different ways. I agree, as I said she just doesn't do anything for me. If she increases your understanding, or if you believe that she does, good for you! > > On with the sutta: > > "Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he > finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds > estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye- contact, and > whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor- pleasant > that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he > finds estrangement. > > Estrangement in the eye. Cooling. Cessation. The fire begins to die down. It > won't go out for many lifetimes, in all probability, but it is already > dying down, moment by moment, thanks to thoughtful and patient consideration > of Dhamma. > > > But, you have delighted me with your two posts on this question > > because you have proven my point: The question is silly! ;-) > > I wonder if you still think so? What do you think? > > >If you think about this question deeply, in every possible aspect, you > will > > soon come to the conclusion that there isn't an answer. > > And I say to you that if you think about it, you'll see that there is. > Reflect on the > Fire Sutta. Reflect on the Honeyball Sutta. Reflect on any number of suttas > that deal with the sense doors. Most importantly, reflect on your own > experience. Preach it brother! Preach it! ;-) (just kidding). > Perhaps you will come to take note, as I did, of the way you find that your > eye > has locked on certain objects, and that it does so consistently, and not on > others. > In my case, it is women, Me too!! ;-))))))))) and for me it is irrefutable evidence of > proliferation that has already ocurred > when the conventionally-insighted person would say "I see a woman." The > difference between finding that > one is looking at something and has seen something. > > "See" is never used in the progressive continuous tense. > We never say "I am seeing." - but perhaps we should, because it better gets > at how quickly seeing > is rising and falling away, beyond our control. Good points. I have a question for you, which I have been thinking about recently: Of the Noble Eightfold Path, is Right View "right seeing" or is it something else? > > K Sujin's question helps us understand this. Well, it helped me! Great! > > Metta, > Phil Metta, James 39805 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 0:03am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 74- Volition/cetanaa (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** As regards the manifestation of cetanå which is directing, the Atthasåliní compares cetanå with the chief disciple who recites his own lessons and makes the other pupils recite their lessons as well, with the chief carpenter who does his own work and makes the other carpenters do their work, or with the general who fights himself and makes the other soldiers take part in the battle, “…for when he begins, the others follow his example. Even so, when volition starts work on its object, it sets associated states to do each its own.“ The cetanå which accompanies vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta merely coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does not ‘will’ kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or unwholesome deeds. For example, seeing-consciousness, which is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma, is accompanied by cetanå and this cetanå is also vipåka. The cetanå which accompanies seeing-consciousness directs the tasks which the accompanying dhammas have to fulfil with regard to visible object. It directs, for example, phassa which contacts visible object, vedanå which feels and saññå which marks and remembers visible object. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39806 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Dear Joop, I appreciate your input and deep reflections on different topics. Honestly speaking, I don’t know what an ‘orthodox Theravadan view’ is. We’re all just groping in the dark most the time in our unorthodox ways. As Howard would say we just pick out useful reminders here and there which we can discuss and learn from. We were reminded in India not to cling to particular texts and materials, but we can just test out what is right according to our limited understanding and leave those parts of the texts which are beyond our wisdom to appreciate for now. Can we say that only the ariyans have an ‘orthodox view’ without any wrong views clouding the issues? Why did the commentators use ‘sabhava’? I don’t know but let me repeat Nina’s comment which you liked: “I am just wondering whether you see too much behind this term sabhava…….It just means: each dhamma has its own characteristic, and speaking of conditioned dhamma, it falls away immediately. No question of essentialism.” Why don’t we use the same English language as Shakespeare? Simply, language and ways of explanation evolve. I don’t attach any great significance to differences in language between the commentaries and the Nikayas, for example. Language is merely a tool to communicate. Back to this thread. Thanks for your input here: --- jwromeijn wrote: > > I like this thread Sarah, because it touches one of the themes that > occupy me: is doing insight-meditation enough or had I also to reach > jhana concentration ? > (Enough for what ? For getting enlightened; the term I prefer) …. S: I see people posing this question often, but I ‘m not sure it’s valid. (I can elaborate further, but won’t for now). …. > Two questions: > In the article of Bhikkhu Bodhi the 'right concentration' as one of > the parts of the eightfold path is mentioned many times. The 'right > mindfulness' (samma sati) not at all. > And it is this 'right mindfulness' that plays a central role in the > so called insight meditation (also called in Europe 'vipassana'), > based on the Satapathana Sutta > I don't understand why 'right mindfulness' is not mentioned; to > me 'right concentration' is not more important (for getting > enlightenend) than 'right mindfulness'? …. S: Good point. Without any right mindfulness or awareness (samma sati) , there won’t be any samma Samadhi. And there won’t be any samma sati arising without a clear comprehension of the objects of samma sati or of what it is. This is why in the Satipatthana Sutta we always read about sati-sampajanna (right awareness and understanding) together. The other factors of the fivefold or eightfold path are also implied. …. > The second question: the article of BB is about lay-people. But we > are talking about fundamental things; and social-spiritual roles like > being a monk, a nun or a layman/laywoman doesn't play a role at that > level ? …. S: Yes, I agree with you. Cittas don’t discriminate between whether one is a male or female, a monk or a layman or woman. In other words, when it comes to the development of satipatthana, the path is the same for all – one path, consisting of the various path factors. No monk or layperson involved. …. > PS the Pali-terms were no problem: I skip them when I don't recognize > them, thinking: "Pali-words are just words, and words are symbols, > and symbols are concepts." …. S: This was a kind comment. I think it’s natural to adjust one’s language or terminology according to who one is addressing. So, I try to avoid Pali as much as possible if I’m writing to friends who are likely to be put off by it and use it more for particular terms if I’m responding to someone who prefers to use Pali expressions. Btw, what do you mean by insight and insight meditation ? Metta, Sarah ======= 39807 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same' And absabhava = pannatti ? Hi, Larry In fact you explain the function of 'asabhava', and the existence of the word 'sabhava' only as a consequence. Sounds logic, but I'm not sure that was the historical reason. But that is a kind of problem I can forget. Thanks Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Joop: "And a unanswered question to me still is: WHY did the > commentators introduce the word sabhava ? " > > Hi Joop, > > One possible answer is that a concept/reality distinction was necessary > in order to eradicate attachment to concepts. We can directly see that a > reality is not graspable by witnessing its impermanence first hand. For > example, happiness is a reality; it is a pleasant mental feeling. We can > see this is ungraspable and therefore not truly desirable by seeing how > quickly it arises and ceases. We can't say the same thing about a > concept, such as a person, for example. Conventionally speaking, we say > a person is born, lives for maybe 80 years and dies. This kind of > impermanence is not going to discourage grasping. We have to see that a > person is ultimately a relational being composed of many properties with > countless relationships with the rest of the 'world' (also a concept). > Because all a person is is this interrelatedness there isn't really > anything there that could be experienced as a person in the same way as > happiness can be experienced as happiness. This lack of an experiencable > being is asabhava, no self-nature. It doesn't particularly have anything > to do with impermanence. Sabhava (self-nature) is what is impermanent > (nibbana is an exception). > > Larry 39808 From: AlanLam Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Joop, > > I appreciate your input and deep reflections on different topics. Honestly > speaking, I don't know what an `orthodox Theravadan view' is. We're all > just groping in the dark most the time in our unorthodox ways. As Howard > would say we just pick out useful reminders here and there which we can > discuss and learn from. We were reminded in India not to cling to > particular texts and materials, but we can just test out what is right > according to our limited understanding and leave those parts of the texts > which are beyond our wisdom to appreciate for now. Can we say that only > the ariyans have an `orthodox view' without any wrong views clouding the > issues? > > Why did the commentators use `sabhava'? I don't know but let me repeat > Nina's comment which you liked: > > "I am just wondering whether you see too much behind this term > sabhava…….It just means: each dhamma has its own characteristic, and > speaking of conditioned dhamma, it falls away immediately. No question of > essentialism." > > Why don't we use the same English language as Shakespeare? Simply, > language and ways of explanation evolve. I don't attach any great > significance to differences in language between the commentaries and the > Nikayas, for example. Language is merely a tool to communicate. > > Back to this thread. Thanks for your input here: > > --- jwromeijn wrote: > > > > I like this thread Sarah, because it touches one of the themes that > > occupy me: is doing insight-meditation enough or had I also to reach > > jhana concentration ? > > (Enough for what ? For getting enlightened; the term I prefer) > …. > S: I see people posing this question often, but I `m not sure it's valid. > (I can elaborate further, but won't for now). > …. > > Two questions: > > In the article of Bhikkhu Bodhi the 'right concentration' as one of > > the parts of the eightfold path is mentioned many times. The 'right > > mindfulness' (samma sati) not at all. > > And it is this 'right mindfulness' that plays a central role in the > > so called insight meditation (also called in Europe 'vipassana'), > > based on the Satapathana Sutta > > I don't understand why 'right mindfulness' is not mentioned; to > > me 'right concentration' is not more important (for getting > > enlightenend) than 'right mindfulness'? > …. > S: Good point. Without any right mindfulness or awareness (samma sati) , > there won't be any samma Samadhi. And there won't be any samma sati > arising without a clear comprehension of the objects of samma sati or of > what it is. This is why in the Satipatthana Sutta we always read about > sati-sampajanna (right awareness and understanding) together. The other > factors of the fivefold or eightfold path are also implied. > …. > > The second question: the article of BB is about lay-people. But we > > are talking about fundamental things; and social-spiritual roles like > > being a monk, a nun or a layman/laywoman doesn't play a role at that > > level ? > …. > S: Yes, I agree with you. Cittas don't discriminate between whether one is > a male or female, a monk or a layman or woman. In other words, when it > comes to the development of satipatthana, the path is the same for all – > one path, consisting of the various path factors. No monk or layperson > involved. > …. > > PS the Pali-terms were no problem: I skip them when I don't recognize > > them, thinking: "Pali-words are just words, and words are symbols, > > and symbols are concepts." > …. > S: This was a kind comment. I think it's natural to adjust one's language > or terminology according to who one is addressing. So, I try to avoid Pali > as much as possible if I'm writing to friends who are likely to be put off > by it and use it more for particular terms if I'm responding to someone > who prefers to use Pali expressions. > > Btw, what do you mean by insight and insight meditation ? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Hi jwromeijn, Your question on "doing insight-meditation enough or having to reach jhana ?". For Vipassana Meditation or Insight Meditation, it is better to have jhana state of mind first and then change track like a railway line, to Vipassana. Without jhana state what one contemplates is just mundane or relative truth only. Whereas when one reaches the jhana stage (be it 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th), when contemplating the dharma factors, one contemplating the supra-mundane or ultimate truth. The General of meditation Ven. MahaMogallana having reached the 4th jhana stage and contemplate the Dharma factors (the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 objects of craving). That's why he is the one with the best magical powers of all Arhats then. However, irrespective of whichever jhana stage, when one cut off rebirth, the nibanna is the same. However, the Ven. Mahasi of Burma teaches Vipassana with "Access Concentration" or "Entering Concentration" which is excellent for beginners with just enough concentration, before reaching jhana, to use for contemplation of Dharma factors. When one progresses then diligently, one could achieve jhana state then. hana is like the mercury of the thermometer, it goes up and down. Hence, for beginners, one will not achieve jhana state each and every time when one meditates. Howver, constancy is the key to success. One should promise oneself not to miss even one day's meditation irrespective even if one were on travel. One will progress very well then. Today, many Vipassana meditator used to query as to why the Sathipathana Sutta promised if not 7 day, but 7 months and yet why still one do not achieve "Stream Enterer". The problem lies with one who did the Vipassana but forgot the 8 fold noble path, still with harsh words etc. as today's society is much more complex than those Buddha's day. During the Buddha's time, should one were to leave home to become a Bhikkhu and hold the full precepts, it is like one pulling a 'Rubber-Band" just 8 inches apart and then release it. One do not get the pain from the elastic band hitting on one's hand. As the society then was very simple without much comfort or distraction. However, today, should one wish then to renounce and become a Bhikkhu, it will be like one pulling the "Rubber-Band" 18 inches apart. When relaesed, it snapped and sharp pain will be felt. Yet, here we do not mention the holding of the full monk's vinaya then. I sincerely hope my above view do met with your kind acceptance and should you have a clearer concept, please do comment so that I could learn it too. Thanking you. Kindest regards and Metta. Alan 39809 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] The jhaanas and the Lay Disciples Dear Alan, I’m not sure I’ll be able to do justice to your comments, but let’s see. I assure you that my ‘command’ of any of the texts is very limited indeed! First of all, let me quote from BB’s article and then my comments to help me revisit the context. I apologise for the length of this post as a consequence. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34202 The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (3) BB:>Since the lay stream-enterer or once-returner is thus well equipped with the wisdom of insight but is not typically described as a jhaana attainer, this implies that attainment of jhaana is not normally expected or required of him. From this we can also conclude that at these early stages of the path liberative wisdom does not depend on a supporting base of jhaana. >(5) A text in the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta gives credit to this conclusion. At SN 55:40/V 398–99, the Buddha explains to the Sakyan Nandiya how a noble disciple dwells diligently (ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii). He says that a noble disciple should not become complacent about possessing the four factors of stream-entry but should use these qualities as starting points for contemplation: "He is not content with his confirmed confidence in the Buddha (etc.), but strives further in seclusion by day and in retreat by night. As he dwells diligently, gladness arises ... (as above) ... for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest. It is with the manifestation of phenomena to him that he is reckoned as 'one who dwells diligently.'"[31] >The expression "manifestation of phenomena" (dhammaana.m paatubhaava) indicates that the disciple is engaged in contemplating the rise and fall of the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and so forth. Thus this passage shows how the disciple proceeds from concentration to insight, but it does not describe this concentration in terms suggesting it occurs at the level of jhaana. Since the sequence switches over from concentration to insight without mentioning jhaana, it seems that the concentration attained will be tantamount to access concentration, not jhaana, yet even this suffices to support the arising of insight. …. S: Actually, this is a very interesting sutta. We are inclined to think that on reaching sotapatti magga, the work is done, but here we read a description of the nble disciple ‘who dwells negligently’ and the one ‘who dwells diligently’. I wrote: S:>7.In an earlier section of the article under ‘The Stream-enterer and Jhaana’, you refer to SN 55:40. ‘When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest….’Panna and Samadhi surely condition each other and arise together in the development of satipatthana. Indeed, at [and subsequent to] stages of vipassana ~nana, they are ‘yoked’ together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. The object is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent.This contrasts with the beginning of satipatthana, otherwise there’s no different level. However, even at vipassana ~nana [and subsequently], it must be khanika samadhi, not appanaa (access) as I believe you suggest. The objects of the samadhi and panna are still characteristics of reality (i.e 4 foundations of mindfulness). …. S: Actually, here it is the sotapanna’s wisdom being described with panna and samadhi clearly yoked together. Also see 35:97. Now to some of your comments: --- AlanLam wrote: > SN55.40/V398-99 > > Quote : He is content with his confirmed confidence in the Buddha > (etc.). But strives further in seclusion by day and in retreat by night. > As > he dwells diligently, gladness arises (as above)... for one who is happy > > the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, > phenomena become manifest. It is with manifestation of phenomena to > him that he is reckoned as "one who dwells diligently". (31). Unquote. > Here please allow me to address the above point by point as follows; > > "But strives further in seclusion by day" : "strives" could mean > he "energetically meditated" in seclusion by day. Buddha always remind > his disciples to stay in meditation in seclusions, i.e. in a forest > under the > tree or in empty building ….. S: See 35:97 under sa.laayatanasa.myutta. We’re discussing the development of insight and as I said, at higher stages, samadhi and vipassana are yoked together, conditioning each other. I’m not sure that the use of seclusion is physical seclusion here as you indicate. Seclusion or (pa)viveka can refer to bodily or mental seclusion. We read elsewhere about viveka-sukha, the happiness of seclusion/detachment or enlightenment. We’d need to look at all the terms very carefully here. Strives or vaayamati (I think) as in samma vaayaamo (right effort). Meditates or jaayati as in develops samatha and vipassana. Dwells diligently (appamaadavihaarii hoti). Perhaps someone with more Pali knowledge can help further. 31. SN V 398–99: Idha Nandiya ariyasaavako Buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagato hoti ... So tena Buddhe aveccappasaadena asantu.t.tho uttari.m vaayamati divaa pavivekaaya ratti.m pa.tisallaanaaya. Tassa eva.m appamattassa viharato paamujja.m jaayati ... sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. Samaahite citte dhammaa paatubhavanti. Dhammaana.m paatubhaavaa appamaadavihaarii tveva sa,nkha.m gacchati.... Eva.m kho Nandiya ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii hoti > ….. > "in retreat by night". : "retreat" always mean "meditation practise in > seclusions" without disturbance. And retreat could also mean "working > very ernestly in meditation". It is a full time meditation process > during a > retreat. > > Hence, here it should mean that he is "in strict and diligent meditation > > by day and by night". Working ernestly hard in meditation. …. S: BB gives ‘seclusion at night’ and as I say, viveka can refer to mental detachment (citta viveka), detachment from sensuous objects. Pls see ‘solitude’ or ‘seclusion’ in Useful Posts if you have time. …. > "As he dwells diligently, gladness arises" : "dwell" here could > mean "engrossed", "fully concentrated" and "energetically meditating", > lasting for a period of time. > > "gladness arises" : Here "gladness" is a distinct mark called "piti" > or "raptures". For one who ernestly meditates and achieving a state of > continuous samadhi djyana, there will be stages of piti or raptures, …. S: Also, there can be great piti with insight or higher wisdom. … <…> > Hence, here he has achived samadhi djyana state and thus NOT, I > would like to repeat, NOT "Access Concentration" and or "Entering > Concentration" as you have commented. As either of the two (2) > (Access or Entering Concentration) does not and will not, come with the > mark of piti or raptures. Only prolonged djyana does have this mark of > piti/raptures. …. S: I appreciate your logical conclusions, but as BB stated, I don’t think this is necessarily the case. There is no mention of jhana here. BB mentioned access concentration but I’m not convinced of this as I wrote in my comments above. I believe the entire sutta is about the development of higher and higher insights. The neglighent sotapanna is the one that is not developing the further wisdom which leads to higher ariyan states surely? Satipatthana and insights are accompanied by khanika samadhi …. > > I would then greatly appreciate if you could again please cross-check > and advise if you do agree to the above analysis. ….. S: Alan, we have plenty to discuss here. As I say, my knowledge is very limited and I’ll be glad for any assistance or correction. Maybe some of our Pali experts will also be able to help a little or if anyone has access to the commentary. Please keep discussing all these terms. It’s very interesting and I can learn from it. As I say, sometimes I’m slow to respond, so don’t be deterred. Metta, Sarah p.s So you live in Bkk and know one of K.Sujin’s nephews or nieces?? I knew all her nieces and nephews when they were young and used to visit the house where she lived with her father, as I used to stay there when I visited Bkk. Have you ever visited the Foundation? A couple of our members here like Sukin and Betty go regularly to the Saturday afternoon English discussions. Recommended! You may also like to listen to the audio tapes we’ve edited and uploaded. Many of these points are raised on them (Patna Board Room and Lumbini discussions from memory). http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ ============================================== 39810 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:42am Subject: Concept and Reality/ Rob M Friend Rob M. and all, I have begun to read the book `Concept and Reality' and I wanted to give an update. It is a very rich book, packed with details, and I don't think that just one update would do it justice. Therefore, I will give some updates as I am inspired during my reading. I agree with the central thesis of the author which states, in brief, that mental (or conceptual) proliferation will befall the worldling in a `subject-object' manner predominately due to the tyranny of language combined with the limitations of the sensory apparatus. It cannot be emphasized enough that words and thoughts have a symbiotic relationship and because language is so `public' and apparently stable, mental proliferation with link conceptualization of the past, present, and future to create a web and a trap of `subject-object' duality. This is the very beginning of the creation of the ego. From the Honeyball Sutta: Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. "Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises... "Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises... "Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises... "Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises... "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future ideas cognizable via the intellect." http://www.seattleinsight.org/sutta.aspx?id=6 The author then goes on to explain that, unfortunately, Buddhaghosa in his commentaries ignores the symbiotic relationship between conceptualization and language, directly revealed in the syntax of the teachings themselves, and instead chooses to focus on the reasoning of concepts. This breaks down and compartmentalizes the dependent origination aspect so essential in the Buddha's original teaching. My conclusion from this reading: those who strictly adhere to the viewpoint of Buddhaghosa and his commentaries will emphasize the danger in concepts themselves rather than the danger in the process of conceptualization leading to the proliferation of conceptualization. I believe that this difference in viewpoint is revealed so strikingly in the debates we so often see in DSG. Additionally, I believe it is very important for the Buddhist to have a critical awareness of how language influences thought and vice versa. Metta, James 39811 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:29am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi James, and all Well, James, I must admit I was afraid you'd get snorky in response to those corrections, but you proved me wrong. I'm glad they were appreciated. It gave me a chance to return the favour for the times you've helped me out. > I agree, as I said she just doesn't do anything for me. If she > increases your understanding, or if you believe that she does, good > for you! Right. As long as you don't go around designating her for hell anymore! > Good points. I have a question for you, which I have been thinking > about recently: Of the Noble Eightfold Path, is Right View "right > seeing" or is it something else? I tend to think that the Path falls into place if we are practicing correctly, but we can't practice the Path correctly by knowing what the factors are and aiming for them, if you know what I mean. In other words, I don't know! An embarassing confession, but I never think about the 8FP, though I have a rough idea what the factors are. The wholesome and unwholesome deeds seem easier to understand for me. And the Noble Truths more fruitful for reflection. So I guess I stop after Three! But I guess Right View wouldn't be seeing, because seeing is vipaka. The Path should surely have to do with the productive side of things. We don't do any fresh harm, or good, by seeing. It is a resultant. It is the mental action that follows where we get into trouble. So I would say Right View has to do with faith in and respect for the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and belief in the Noble Truths, and the view that there is indeed harm that ensues from unwholesome thoughts, speech and deeds, and good that comes from the wholesome. But not seeing. How can we see in a "right" way? It is a result of our kamma, technically speaking. Looking is another thing. After that moment of seeing consciousness, the looking begins. And that's where we get into trouble if we don't have wise attention. Taking the old clliche "you can look but you'd better not touch!" a step further. "You can look but you'd better not look with ayoniso manasikara!" Not that we want to go through life with our eyes on the ground. More middle way. Metta, Phil 39812 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: D.O. avija -> sankharas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Agrios and Sarah, > I went through my file and cannot resist requoting a quote by Rob K who > wrote a long article on it before. It really refers to basics here in order > to have right understanding of D.O. We should not start the wrong way when > we begin to study it. Hi Nina and Sarah, I've done some reading and do have some general picture of whole process. > involved in this > description of conditions. The paticcasamupada is > simply a description of > changing processes. Thus it is not "we" who are having > ignorance, nor is it > "us" who is being reborn or dying. > The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge > of anatta, not-self, becomes. right. > Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle. > However, at the > parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions > for it to continue. > All namas and rupas cease arising. > > Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja, > ignorance. Visuddhimagga > XVII 43: " it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of > collection in the > aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the > bases(ayatanas)…..the > meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents > knowing the meaning of > dukkha described in the four ways as `oppression > etc'..Furthermore it is > ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and > objects of > eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination." > In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true > nature of paramattha > dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each > other.> If I am interested in avija and what Buddha meant by it, I'd rather read Buddhas explanations and not this monstrous buddhist encyklopedias or commentaries. I have no interest in them other then historical. There is one text I've found thanks to Sarah, but have no idea where is it from: `...This too is said; `Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms formations of merit, forms formations of demerit, forms formations of the imperturbable. As soon, bhikkhus, as a bhikkhu's ignorance is abandoned and clear vision is arisen, bhikkhus, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he does not form even formations of merit.'(cf Sii 82)." can't figure out what cf Sii 82 is. Could someone help me here? I am mainly interested in the process of coming to be, in exact mechanism of avija -> sankharas formation as I read yours Nina and RobsM explanation of 3fold moha/avija and have no problem spotting it at all :) What interests me is how it triggers sankharas. whole lota of metta, Agrios 39813 From: Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 74- Volition/cetanaa (d) Hi, Sarah (and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 12/15/04 3:05:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] > ***** > As regards the manifestation of cetanÃ¥ which is directing, the > AtthasÃ¥linÃcompares cetanÃ¥ with the chief disciple who recites > his own lessons and makes the other pupils recite their lessons as > well, with the chief carpenter who does his own work and makes > the other carpenters do their work, or with the general who fights > himself and makes the other soldiers take part in the battle, > > “…for when he begins, the others follow his example. Even so, > when volition starts work on its object, it sets associated states to > do each its own.“ > > The cetanÃ¥ which accompanies vipÃ¥kacitta and kiriyacitta merely > coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it > does not ‘will’ kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome > or unwholesome deeds. > > ======================== Here is a question: When, in functional mindstates, the cetana does not "will" kusala or akusala consequences, is it still the case that it "wills" states that are neutral, i.e. the cetana is non-kammic but still can be deemed as a "willing"? I ask this, because I particularly have in mind the arahant, who, if I'm not mistaken, has only kiriyacitta for mindstates. Certainly, the Buddha, Sariputta, and other well known arahants engaged in conventional volition, which suggests to me that cetana did operate in them in more than a mere coordinating fashion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39814 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (180) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 14 functions of citta or consciousness. They are 1. patisandhi kicca or linking function 2. bhavanga kicca or life continueing function 3. avajjaja kicca or adverting function 4. dasana kicca or seeing function 5. savana kicca or hearing function 6. ghayana kicca or smelling function 7. sayana kicca or tasting function 8. phusana kicca or touching function 9. sampaticchana kicca or receiving function 10.santirana kicca or investigating function 11.votthapana kicca or determining function 12.javana kicca or mental impulsing function 13.tadarammana kicca or retention function 14.cuti kicca or last-existing function or dying function The first 3 functions have been explained. 4th to 8th functions will depend on what object has arisen. If vanna or ruparammana or visual object, cakkhuvinnana citta arises and does the function of seeing. If sadda or sound or saddarammana or auditory object arises, sotavinnana citta arises and does hearing. If gandha or smell, ghanavinnana citta arises and does smelling. If rasa or taste, jivhavinnana citta arises and does tasting. If photthabba or touch, kayavinnana citta arises and does touching. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39815 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same' Hey Howard, E> To try to describe nibbana in prose would be to say something > like...it is pure awareness without a subject or object. > > =================== H> But why say "awareness"? Awareness of what, if there is no object? I think that with regard to nibbana, to say anything is already to say too much. I sometimes want to say that nibbana is "that", or is "the real". But these don't really say anything, do they? Silence is best, I think. Silence is awareness without subject and object. I think awareness is important in that Nibbana may be unselfconscious but it is not 'unconscious'. Otherwise a hit on the head with a hammer would suffice. PEACE E 39816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala and akusala Dear friend James, I still did not answer your letter, but meanwhile I enjoyed reading your dialogues with Phil. Phil gave already many answers about seeing! Maybe I do not add much. op 13-12-2004 06:01 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...:> > Here is my last word to you on this subject: I don't think you > should be so afraid of "atta belief" entering your practice. Doing > that is like being afraid of your own shadow! As you move closer to > the light (nibbana), and the light is directly overhead, the shadow > will be gone. Until then, make peace with it. N: Yes, lobha is like a shadow following us everywhere. We should not be afraid of this shadow, but realize it, face it with understanding. Otherwise more and more is accumulated and that is dangerous. J: ps. I think you should listen more to Lodewijk than Kh. Sujin. N: Lodewijk had conceit on account of your remark! I shall consult him more often when you bring up a point. He said that it is very understandable that Kh. Sujin's words do not appeal to you, it is very personal. He mentioned that in the beginning, for many years, he had great difficulty in understanding Kh. Sujin's words. But he gradually discovers that what she says is the truth. He also thinks that for a Thai audience her words are less difficult to understand. Nina. 39817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies. Hi Howard, op 14-12-2004 19:26 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> H: If one were to say that anusaya are deep-seated cetasikas that may >>> be strengthened and weakened, but otherwise tenaciously replicate >> themselves >>> from moment to moment, and that manifest as outflowings, that would be an >>> explanation that is sufficiently detailed and credible for me to "buy". > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > But if they are "underlying microbes that are with each citta arising > and falling away," then they do replicate themselves each moment, do they not? > (I don't mean *exact* replication.) > --------- N: I would like to be careful here, in the use of the word replication, because this whole process is much more complex. Many more factors than we would ever think are involved. I give an illustration. We read in the Maha-Sutasoma Jataka (no. 458), that Angulimala in a former life was King Brahmadatta. His cook could not obtain meat and therefore he served him part of a human body. The King had been a Yakka in a former birth and had accumulated liking for human flesh. He could not resist having humans killed to obtain human flesh. The flavour of human flesh was the object in particular that he could not resist. We see here that there are many factors involved. The object has to be the right object for desire, he had accumulated strong desire for it. But also feeling is accumulated. Feeling accompanying desire can be pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. Feeling has many different intensities, it never is the same. Also sañña is involved: it remembers former pleasant experiences. Also ignorance, another latent tendency, plays its part. Ignorance of dhammas is deeply accumulated. If we do not realize that ignorance is also accumulated in kusala citta we cannot understand D.O. We learn about different types of citta and cetasikas, and cittas are classified in different ways. We learn about citta rooted in ignorance and attachment, and even if we take one type of citta that is classified as one of the eight cittas rooted in attachment, we should know that it never is the same. There are many different intensities and it likes different objects. We like all sense objects, but liking for specific objects can be strongly accumulated. Many conditions are operating when a dhamma arises. This will help us to see that conditioned dhammas cannot be permanent and that they are subject to change. This illustrates that the subject of latent tendencies is most intricate and when I study it more I realize how little I understand. We do not know exactly how it all works, but we know that we have latent tendencies, all of them. The akusala cittas that are condiotend by them may arise in a way that is unforeseeable, unexpectantly. Suddenly anger may appear and take one by surprise. In India we discussed this subject and I was thinking about the danger of latent tendencies that ever become more, life after life. Would this not be the condition for terrible clashes, outbursts of anger, violence, and so on in the present life? The answer was that it depends on many other conditions whether strong akusala has the opportunity to appear. But we never know what will happen in our life. Studying the Abhidhamma, I like to repeat, gives us a sense of urgency to develop understanding of what appears now, including akusala. Nina. 39818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: Vis. studies. T.G. Hi TG, very good. I would like your input in our Vis studies. It is useful if you bring forward what you found hard to understand. Larry and I shall soon start with feeling khandha. Before that one section more about dying-consciousness and the cycle. Looking forward, Nina. op 15-12-2004 02:01 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > I've spent years studying the Abhidhamma and contrary to what some > people might think, I consider it beneficial. I've even read the > Visuddhimagga > cover to cover about 10 times...that's not too shabby. And it even has a > couple > of pages that instruct on how to practice as I recall. ;-) (Of course that > doesn't mean I understood a lick of it.) I primarily use Suttas as examples > because I consider them the "prime authority." 39819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi TG, op 14-12-2004 20:54 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > Is there any realitivly "hard evidence" of this in the Suttas? N: No. In the Expositor it is explained that nibbana is arupa, thus, nama, but not nama which experiences. It is experienced, it bends citta and cetasika towards it (namati: to bend). In the same way, viññaana in this context has the meaning of to be known (like vineyya). We could ask Suan if he has time, to help us find the Co. passage. Nina. 39820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Phra Dhammadharo, Phil Hello Phil, I like your letter with comments. I take up one point. op 13-12-2004 00:55 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > I'm not sure if tiredness is a rupa or a nama - Htoo gave me some > interesting > comments but I'm afraid I can't remember them- but in any case my thinking > about > it is nama. N: I quite agree that we have to hear again, again, and again that our thinking we find so important is only nama. Tiredness: a situation, but there are nama and rupa. One reminder I heard:when you feel tired you have clinging to the idea of self. In India Kh. Sujin had bodily tiredness, but all the same she would not give in and kept on explaining Dhamma. Nina. 39821 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. avija -> sankharas Hi Agrios see my post to James, where I quote. When you get used to the terms they are not so monstruous as you think. op 15-12-2004 15:11 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > If I am interested in avija and what Buddha meant by it, > I'd rather read Buddhas explanations and not this monstrous > buddhist encyklopedias or commentaries. > I have no interest in them other then historical. > > There is one text I've found thanks to Sarah, > but have no idea where is it from: > > `...This too is said; `Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms > formations of merit, forms formations of demerit, forms formations of > the > imperturbable. t what cf Sii 82 is. N: Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, 6, Tree Suttas, § 51. A: I am mainly interested in the process of coming to be, > in exact mechanism of avija -> sankharas formation as I read > yours Nina and RobsM explanation of 3fold moha/avija > and have no problem spotting it at all :) > What interests me is how it triggers sankharas. N:So long as there is ignorance one still commits kamma (here: sankhara or formations) that produces rebirth and results during life. Read Sarah's quote about the threefold sankhara. Also when performing kusala kamma ignorance is still a latent tendency so long as one is not an arahat. Sarah:, Dispeller: “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four truths in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering called the fruit of merit (S: i.e kusala vipaka) which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. “Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth falling into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking the honey-smeared knife-edge. Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit occurring in the three doors, like a child who plays with filth and like one who wants to die and eats poison. Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion (vipallasa) of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc, he initiates the formation of the imperturbable (S: profitable volitions of immaterial sphere (kusalaa cetanaa aruupaavacara])which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city.> ***** Sarah: So ignorance of dependent origination and of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all formations, including wholesome or profitable volitions, even of arupa jhanas, propels the cycle continuously from moment to moment, life to life ‘like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city’. Nina. > 39822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ŒCetasikas' study corner 74- Volition/cetanaa (d) Hi Howard, A good point. I have to think. op 15-12-2004 15:19 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Here is a question: When, in functional mindstates, the cetana does > not "will" kusala or akusala consequences, is it still the case that it > "wills" > states that are neutral, i.e. the cetana is non-kammic but still can be deemed > as a "willing"? I ask this, because I particularly have in mind the arahant, > who, if I'm not mistaken, has only kiriyacitta for mindstates. Certainly, the > Buddha, Sariputta, and other well known arahants engaged in conventional > volition, which suggests to me that cetana did operate in them in more than a > mere > coordinating fashion. N: The arahat acts, speaks and thinks with kiriyacittas accompanied by sobhana, beautiful cetasikas. He extends metta to all, has compassion, etc. Also his cetana is kiriya, it cannot produce any result. The conditions are such. We can use the word volition, his volition is directed towards the sobhana, what is righteous and noble, but we should remember that this is inoperative, thus, not producing vipaka. Therefore it is not kusala kamma. When he has smiling-consciousness it is kiriyacitta without roots. (see Htoo's series and the discussion). Nina. 39823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept and Reality/ Rob M Dear James, Thank you for your remarks. I have a feeling that there is a misunderstanding here that can easily cleared up. Such contoversies are usually unnecessary. The article says: Buddhaghosa , I do not see this, on the contrary. Take the Dispeller, of Delusion, the Co to the Abh Book of Analysis: <642. That is to say, knowledge is understanding. It (i.e. Understanding) makes known and plain the four truths with each meaning and each cause. But this ignorance when it arises does not allow that [understanding] to make that [Dhamma] known and plain; thus, because of it opposition to knowledge, it is unknowing. > It explains Ignorance. Any problem? A quote by Ken O; in the Visud, Chapter XX 96 - 103 He understand thus “there is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to it arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. After knowing the above knowledge, he sees arising of materiality with the arising of ignorance, with the arising of craving, with the arising of kamma, with the arising of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). He sees the fall of the materiality in the sense of condition cessation with the cessation of ignorance, with the cessation of craving, with the cessation of kamma, with the cessation of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). Likewise the same for the other three mentality aggregates, change the nutriment to contact for feelings, preception and formaton aggregates as for consciousness, change the nutriment to mentality-materiality. When he thus see rise and fall in the two ways, according to condition, according to instant, the several truths (i.e. 4NT), aspect of the dependent origination, methods and and characteristics become evident to him.> Any problem? Thus, I think that the writer of the article should give some examples of quotes. Nina. op 15-12-2004 13:42 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > My conclusion from this reading: those who strictly adhere to the > viewpoint of Buddhaghosa and his commentaries will emphasize the > danger in concepts themselves rather than the danger in the process > of conceptualization leading to the proliferation of > conceptualization. I believe that this difference in viewpoint is > revealed so strikingly in the debates we so often see in DSG. 39824 From: Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. studies. T.G. In a message dated 12/15/2004 11:03:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Hi TG, very good. I would like your input in our Vis studies. It is useful if you bring forward what you found hard to understand. Larry and I shall soon start with feeling khandha. Before that one section more about dying-consciousness and the cycle. Looking forward, Nina. Hi Nina Quick comment of the Visuddimagga. Of course a complete masterpiece. But what I find the most invaluable are the last six chapters that specify details of the Path processes. They correspond beautifully with Suttas and provide more clarity as to how they function. Bhikkhu Nanamoli is one of my favorite translators. TG 39825 From: Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. In a message dated 12/15/2004 11:04:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Is there any realitivly "hard evidence" of this in the Suttas? N: No. In the Expositor it is explained that nibbana is arupa, thus, nama, but not nama which experiences. It is experienced, it bends citta and cetasika towards it (namati: to bend). In the same way, viññaana in this context has the meaning of to be known (like vineyya). We could ask Suan if he has time, to help us find the Co. passage. Nina. Hi Nina I have the Expositor, a page number would be great if anyone has it handy. I find the above description fascinating. A Nama that doesn't experience? I guess that's like a Rupa that doesn't have the Four Great Elements. ;-) TG 39826 From: Egbert Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:47pm Subject: Re: To all of Nina Hi Nina, Thank you for your kind comments. I have added some more ruminations below. Perhaps it is too scientific, but sense > > base does not arise in a vacuum, it also requires many other > > conditions for its arising. > N: Yes. Instead of nervous system I am more inclined to use the word rupas > arising because of their appropriate conditions. > > H: I agree with you if you mean that the ego Nina is not a substantial > > entity. ... the story of Nina the actor that negotiates through the > > conflicts. These thoughts are real, but they have no foundation. > > Nina, the thought, does not, and cannot, do anything. > N: Agreed, it is a story we think of, a whole. I would leave out the term > conflicts. In reality there are only changing nama elements and rupa > elements. > But, in practice it is hard to swallow. Bitter medicine! I have the Channovada Sutta (M144)on my mind lately. What is left for Channa, for whom all story telling has ended? A body racked with unpleasant feeling. With the ceasing of the mental effluents there remains this far-from-neutral sack of skin and bones. There is, happily for Channa, the assurance that by ending the life of the body, there will be the ending of all unpleasantness. It is bitter medicine indeed! Kind Regards Herman 39827 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:21pm Subject: A Hello from Member #480 Hi, every one - I became member # 480 a moment ago, when the newest message number shown was 39,820. That's mean it is impossible for me to catch with what happened since day 1 here. Perhaps a quick review of 50 - 100 messages back should be adequate. Any recommendation, please? Regards, Tep ======== 39828 From: Egbert Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi TG and all, > > Is there any realitivly "hard evidence" of this in the Suttas? > N: No. In the Expositor it is explained that nibbana is arupa, thus, nama, > but not nama which experiences. It is experienced, it bends citta and > cetasika towards it (namati: to bend). In the same way, viññaana in this > context has the meaning of to be known (like vineyya). > We could ask Suan if he has time, to help us find the Co. passage. > Nina. > > > I have the Expositor, a page number would be great if anyone has it handy. I > find the above description fascinating. > > A Nama that doesn't experience? I guess that's like a Rupa that doesn't have > the Four Great Elements. ;-) > > TG > The Nibbana of the Nikayas is markedly different from the Nibbana of the commentators. This is what the PTS dictionary has to say: N. is the untranslatable expression of the Unspeakable, of that for which in the Buddha's own saying there is no word, which cannot be grasped in terms of reasoning and cool logic, the Nameless, Undefinable (cp. the simile of extinction of the flame which may be said to pass from a visible state into a state which cannot be defined. Thus the Saint (Arahant) passes into that same state, for which there is "no measure" (i. e. no dimension): "atthangatassa na pamanam atthi . . . yena nan vajju: tan tassa n' atthi" Sn 1076. The simile in v. 1074: "acci yatha vata--vegena khitto atthan paleti, na upeti sankhan: evan muni namakaya vimutto atthan paleti, na upeti sankhan"). Yet, it is a reality, and its characteristic features may be described, may be grasped in terms of earthly language, in terms of space (as this is the only means at our disposal to describe abstract notions of time and mentality); e. g. accutan thanan, paran, amatan padan, amata (& nibbana--) dhatu. -- It is the speculative, scholastic view and the dogmatising trend of later times, beginning with the Abhidhamma period, which has more and more developed the simple, spontaneous idea into an exaggerated form either to the positive (i. e. seeing in N. a definite state or sphere of existence) or the negative side (i. e. seeing in it a condition of utter annihilation). Yet its sentimental value to the (exuberant optimism of the) early Buddhists (Rh. Davids, Early Buddhism, p. 73) is one of peace and rest, perfect passionlessness, and thus supreme happiness. Kind Regards Herman 39829 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:09pm Subject: Re: A Hello from Member #480 Dear Tep, You are warmly welcome. I would like to recommend to read useful messages and give your comments on them here. Yours, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, every one - > > I became member # 480 a moment ago, when the newest message > number shown was 39,820. That's mean it is impossible for me to catch > with what happened since day 1 here. Perhaps a quick review of 50 - > 100 messages back should be adequate. > > Any recommendation, please? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======== 39830 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:11pm Subject: Re:kusala and akusala Friend Nina, Nina: I still did not answer your letter, but meanwhile I enjoyed reading your dialogues with Phil. Phil gave already many answers about seeing! Maybe I do not add much. James: I think that you did give me one post about this letter, which I read but I didn't respond because I didn't have much to say in response. Nowadays, since this list is so busy, I use my intuition to decide when to read the posts and when to respond. Sometimes I hit the nail on the head and sometimes I miss (especially since I have to correspond somewhat in secret due to the influence of my close friends…no one likes to give up attention! ;-). Phil has had a lot to say about seeing, and you, and Sarah, and Howard, and many others…and I still ask myself, "What in the heck are all of these people talking about? What does this have to do with the Noble Eightfold Path?" You see, I try to always bring things back to the Eightfold Path; otherwise it is just more mental proliferation…more nonsense. I guess I am very strict in this regard but I don't like to waste any time. Nina: Yes, lobha is like a shadow following us everywhere. We should not be afraid of this shadow, but realize it, face it with understanding. Otherwise more and more is accumulated and that is dangerous. James: I wasn't talking about lobha, I was talking about atta belief (forgive me but I don't know the Pali for that). This is funny because I did a Google search to find out what "lobha" means and the third entry, traditionally listed by the most significant entry in regards to usage and applicability (in Internet terms) is an article by Kh. Sujin!: http://www.dhammastudy.com/words7.html What does this mean? I've been caught in a Kh. Sujin trap!! Hehehe… Nina: Lodewijk had conceit on account of your remark! James: Hehehe…and I bet he was the one to tell you that wasn't he? Good for him! I also avoid praise; praise is Mara in disguise. Nina: I shall consult him more often when you bring up a point. He said that it is very understandable that Kh. Sujin's words do not appeal to you, it is very personal. James: Glad to know that someone is on my side! ;-)) Nina: He mentioned that in the beginning, for many years, he had great difficulty in understanding Kh. Sujin's words. But he gradually discovers that what she says is the truth. James: Yeah, maybe. Or maybe he just got tired of fighting with you about it! ;-)) Nina: He also thinks that for a Thai audience her words are less difficult to understand. James: Yes, this could be true as well as being an easy out. Let's just say that I don't understand her as much because I am not Thai. Metta, James 39831 From: Egbert Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:14pm Subject: Re: 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi TG and all, While on the topic of PTS and Nibbana: "Nibbana is purely and solely an ethical state, to be reached in this birth by ethical practices, contemplation and insight. It is therefore not transcendental. The first and most important way to reach N. is by means of the eightfold Path, and all expressions which deal with the realisation of emancipation from lust, hatred and illusion apply to practical habits and not to speculative thought. N. is realised in one's heart; to measure it with a speculative measure is to apply a wrong standard." Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > A Nama that doesn't experience? I guess that's like a Rupa that > doesn't have > > the Four Great Elements. ;-) > > > > TG > > 39832 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:21pm Subject: Welcome to Pubbarama and Tep! (wasRe: A Hello from Member #480) Hello Alan (pubbarama) and Tep (buddhistmeditator), Welcome! Nice to see you both here. I know you will both bring with you a keen enthusiasm, knowledge of Dhamma and an enjoyment of stimulating discussion. :-) If you go to the Files section via the link below, and then select Useful Posts (fourth topic from the top) you will find a linked alphabetic index of subjects and some hyperlinked posts (selected for relevance by the Moderators, Jon and Sarah). You can spend many happy hours wandering around in there, and anything you are unsure of or disagree with can be re-discussed anytime on dsg. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine (cooran) ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39833 From: Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. In a message dated 12/15/2004 2:03:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: It is the speculative, scholastic view and the dogmatising trend of later times, beginning with the Abhidhamma period, which has more and more developed the simple, spontaneous idea into an exaggerated form either to the positive (i. e. seeing in N. a definite state or sphere of existence) or the negative side (i. e. seeing in it a condition of utter annihilation). Yet its sentimental value to the (exuberant optimism of the) early Buddhists (Rh. Davids, Early Buddhism, p. 73) is one of peace and rest, perfect passionlessness, and thus supreme happiness. Kind Regards Herman Hi Herman (good comments!) Re: annihilation: the way I see it, for something to be annihilated it would have to be a "something unto itself" for it to be a "thing to be annihilated." If conditions are ever changing phenomena, dependently structured by things that are also not "things unto themselves," what's to be annihilated? Its only our self-view that thinks there is something to be annihilated. If self-view is overcome, there's no basis for the annihilation-view to arise. The "annihilation rap" only comes from those who are saddled with self-view. The Buddha in essence says that the 5 aggregates are a system that generate more suffering than they're worth. If there's no-self to the 5 aggregates, they are just a "suffering machine." So if the experiences of the 5 aggregates come to an end...all that has happened is an unnecessary "suffering machine" has come to an end. And that's a good thing. Any "search" for some type of experience within Nibbana or Parinibbana is just that good o'l rascal self-view trying to find a way to keep the "system" afloat. And it does try so hard. TG 39834 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:43pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Phil, Phil: Well, James, I must admit I was afraid you'd get snorky in response to those corrections, but you proved me wrong. I'm glad they were appreciated. It gave me a chance to return the favour for the times you've helped me out. James: Hehehe…actually my responses were very snorky...as usual ;- ). But I guess I was too subtle for you. If Joyce was here, her and I could really exchange some barbs of words! ;-)) (But that wouldn't be too pretty. ;-). Phil: Right. As long as you don't go around designating her for hell anymore! James: LOL! Well, I meant what I said. The teaching of the dhamma is a very, very, very serious matter because the kamma consequences are so significant and grave. This is an important issue (and I realize that even though my joking may seem otherwise). Will Kh. Sujin go to hell for what she is teaching? I'm not sure; but if she does, she can join Buddhaghosa there! ;-)) (just kidding). Phil: An embarassing confession, but I never think about the 8FP, though I have a rough idea what the factors are. James: I really respect you for admitting this, but what are you going to do about it? Are you going to continue to defend Kh. Sujin, a woman you have never met, possibly in order to win the approval of the majority of the members of this list, or are you going to focus on what the Buddha taught? The Noble Eightfold Path is everything! (and I agree with Bhante Vimalaramsi when he suggests that abbreviating the Noble Eightfold Path into "8FP" or any other such derivative is disrespectful of the Buddha's teaching). Phil: How can we see in a "right" way? It is a result of our kamma, technically speaking. James: What we see is a result of our kamma and also not, it is a mixture, but what we "see" from the inside, from our mental processing, is the important area. As you have concluded, and as I have also concluded, "Right View" is not necessarily `right seeing', so why get all excited about it? Metta, James 39835 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept and Reality/ Rob M Friend Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Thus, I think that the writer of the article should give some examples of > quotes. > Nina. The writer of this book gave many quotes and analysis but I did not include them in my short summary. The writer, Bhikkhu Nanananda, writes in the preface to this book, "On the other, it might engender an unreasonable distrust leading to a sweeping condemnation of the commentaries as a whole. This work has failed in its purpose if its critical scrutiny of the occasional shortcomings in the commentarial literature makes anyone forget his indebtedness to the commentaries for his knowledge of the Dhamma." You see, the author has no axe to grind when it comes to Buddhaghosa, and that is very commendable, but I do have an axe to grind! Why? I don't want to explain now because I have on numerous occassions in the past. In this context, let's just say that I don't have to answer to anyone; I am a free agent. I can say what I want to say about Buddhaghosa (unless I am unfairly moderated) and I like it that way! Anyway, I shouldn't debate with you from the author's perspective because I am not the author. Realize that everything I write is from my perspective and it will be biased as a result. Metta, James 39836 From: Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:03am Subject: Vism.XIV,124 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 124. And after death there is rebirth-linking again; and after rebirth-linking, life-continuum. Thus the conscious continuity of beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of consciousness], and abode [of beings] occurs without break. But when a man attains Arahantship here, it ceases with the cessation of his death consciousness. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the consciousness aggregate. 39837 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:55am Subject: good health. Hello dhamma friends, Currently spending most of my time recuperating, so I was intrigued when I read about 'proficiency - paagunnataa' in CMA p87. Proficiency-paagunnataa is one of the 19 sobhana cetasikas that arises with every kusala citta. It states "the 2fold proficiency has the characteristic of healthiness of mental body [cetasikas] and citta, respectively. Its function is to crush unhealthiness of cetasikas and citta. It is manifested as absence of disability. Its proximate cause is the cetasikas and citta. It should be regarded as opposed to lack of faith etc. which cause unhealthiness of the cetasikas and citta." Thinking about this, I decided that good health is probably only a momentary occurrence, when kusala citta arises along with these 19 wholesome cetasikas, [including other wholesome cetasikas that aren't amongst these universals.] If this is the case, then the opposite must be: akusala is bad health. From Nina who was explaining to Mike:....with the arising of each akusala citta the underlying sickness [latent tendencies] gets worse. But on the other hand, by wisdom they can also wear out....... When the sense of urgency arises, I wonder if its kusala or if its aversion to the idea of continuing endlessly in Samsara, but of course only the development of right understanding of the presently arising dhammas will ever really know. 'I' can't, there is no 'I' Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 39838 From: plnao Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi James James: Hehehe.actually my responses were very snorky...as usual ;- ). But I guess I was too subtle for you. Phil: hehe back. I knew you were and even wrote "Is this gentle James setting a trap for me?" but then erased it. But I knew your seemingly innocuous question was a trap. Still, you took my corrections without getting defensive, and that was appreciated. I thought afterwards that assuming that people will behave a certain way is an example of wrong view. People are inconstant. Of course, there are accumulations that lead to character. I'm sure we haven't had our last mutual-snork fest! But I imagine they will become rarer and rarer. Phil: Right. As long as you don't go around designating her for hell anymore! James: LOL! Well, I meant what I said. Phil: But then the next day you took it back and if I'm not mistaken admitted that you had mistook her teaching. I know our understanding changes day by day. That's to be expected. But if you are going to bounce back and forth on sending K Sujin to hell I think you yourself should be aware of the possible consequences. Maybe you will get a bunk bed under Buddhaghosa! I wonder if he snores? James: The teaching of the dhamma is a very, very, very serious matter because the kamma consequences are so significant and grave. This is an important issue (and I realize that even though my joking may seem otherwise). Will Kh. Sujin go to hell for what she is teaching? I'm not sure; but if she does, she can join Buddhaghosa there! ;-)) (just kidding). Phil: Yes, the teaching of Dhamma is very serious, you're right. I can see that. That's why I get so saddened by the kind of Dhamma I see in Japan. The variations within Theravada are so subtle compared to the big leap in wrong view we see elsewhere that I really wonder why people get upset about them. We are all keen on the Pali canon. I'm sure you have discussed Dhamma with people who think that quoting the Buddha is intellectual wankery. That's the kind of wrong view you should go after, in my opinion. Phil: An embarassing confession, but I never think about the 8FP, though I have a rough idea what the factors are. James: I really respect you for admitting this, but what are you going to do about it? Phil: Nothing, for now. As I said, I reflect on the Noble Truths every morning. Trying to understand suffering, and understanding the origination of suffering, is enough for me now. I believe the path factors will fall into place. What good does it do to understand what Right Speech is if you are incapable of applying it because of conditions? You wrote a very convincing series on the Eightfold Path for teens, including right speech, but I'm sure you yourself would be the first to admit that you don't follow it. You spoke of the conditions that were set by your father's influence. (You posted that e-mail message from him.) Knowing the definitions of the path factors doesn't have all that much to do with giving rise to them, in my opinion. When I first came across Dhamma, I spent so much time trying to figure out what Right Mindfulness is, and why some translations said Right Intention and others said Right Thinking. And that sort of thing. I don't think about that anymore. When the time comes for me to think about it, I will know. For know, The Noble Truths are enough. James::Are you going to continue to defend Kh. Sujin, a woman you have never met, possibly in order to win the approval of the majority of the members of this list, Phil: Oh yes! Sweet sweet approval. Or as Homer Simpson would say "MMM Approval!" Seriously, Nina's books have had a revolutionary impact on my life. Well, Abhidhamma has. Nina wouldn't have written those books without K Sujin, so yes, if I see her dissed in an unthoughtful way I will leap in to her rescue, cape aflow! James: or are you going to focus on what the Buddha taught? Phil: Well, I am a Triple Basket man myself, so I believe Abhidhamma is Very Good Dhamma. You don't, and that's fine. Abhidhamma is not for everyone. James: The Noble Eightfold Path is everything! (and I agree with Bhante Vimalaramsi when he suggests that abbreviating the Noble Eightfold Path into "8FP" or any other such derivative is disrespectful of the Buddha's teaching). Phil: As I said above, understanding the Fst and Snd NTs should come first! I disagree about forms of language. It is the citta that is important. You don't know my citta when I write 8FP and I don't know yours when you write Eightfold Noble Path Phil: How can we see in a "right" way? It is a result of our kamma, technically speaking. James: What we see is a result of our kamma and also not, it is a mixture, Phil: Technically speaking, no. It is vipaka. But as I laid out in the previous posts there is already so much proliferation going on through kusala and akusala cittas by the time we *think* "I see a woman" that it would seem like a mixture. James: but what we "see" from the inside, from our mental processing, is the important area. Phil: Stress on the quotation marks. We don't see it, we think it. Seeing is vipaka. Nina stresses again and again how important it is to know the jati of a citta. (ie whether it is vipaka or kamma) James: As you have concluded, and as I have also concluded, "Right View" is not necessarily `right seeing', so why get all excited about it? Phil: You're the one who gets excited about it James! You are ready to send people to hell over it! I just find it to be a very helpful teaching that helps me to understand the processes that lead to proliferation, that help me to understand anatta a little bit better. Untrained, run of the mill people (as the Buddha calls them) think that they control seeing. We know better. K Sujin's teaching helps us there. (Or doesn't, depending on one's accumulations.) I enjoy these slightly sarcastic but also affectionate exchanges with you, James. You are a good Dhamma friend, even when you irritate me! That's what friends are for - sometimes! Metta, Phil 39839 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same' And absabhava = pannatti ? Hi Joop A very good question :) My own opinion, twofold a. because each aggregates has their own unique characteristics for eg feeling is the flavour of an object b. because each aggregates is real as compare to concepts as concepts do not have characteritics of their own, concepts changed with individual but aggregates are the same regardless what planes or what individual that experiences them Ken O 39840 From: AlanLam Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: The jhaanas and the Lay Disciples --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Alan, > > I'm not sure I'll be able to do justice to your comments, but let's see. I > assure you that my `command' of any of the texts is very limited indeed! ... > Please keep discussing all these terms. It's very interesting and I can > learn from it. As I say, sometimes I'm slow to respond, so don't be > deterred. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s So you live in Bkk and know one of K.Sujin's nephews or nieces?? I > knew all her nieces and nephews when they were young and used to visit the > house where she lived with her father, as I used to stay there when I > visited Bkk. Have you ever visited the Foundation? A couple of our members > here like Sukin and Betty go regularly to the Saturday afternoon English > discussions. Recommended! You may also like to listen to the audio tapes > we've edited and uploaded. Many of these points are raised on them (Patna > Board Room and Lumbini discussions from memory). > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > ============================================== Dear Sarah, Thank you for the kind respond. It is better late then never. I am happy with your respond, as I have no knowledge of Pali language at all. I am just a pure cultivator. I spoke from just my Vipassana experience only. And, yes, I hope some others could enlighten us further on this topic. On Khun Sujin, my friend being the nephew, from the 1st mother who has passed away. He is the oldest among the children. I heard they have made an arrangement to meet for New year Dinner gathering. I used to hear from him about his Aunt's Dharma activites and another E-Sangha member that visit the centre once or twice a year to discuss dharma activities. But no, I did not and have not visit to the centre as yet. I do presumed I will do so most probably after this year then. With warm regards and Metta. 39841 From: AlanLam Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:13am Subject: Welcome to Pubbarama and Tep! (wasRe: A Hello from Member #480) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Alan (pubbarama) and Tep (buddhistmeditator), > > Welcome! Nice to see you both here. I know you will both bring > with you a keen enthusiasm, knowledge of Dhamma and an enjoyment of > stimulating discussion. :-) ... > metta and peace, > Christine (cooran) Hi Cooran, Here we meet again. Thanks for the kind gesture. I have just mentioned to Sarah that you do visit to Khun Sujin's place for Dharma discussion etc. Best regards with Metta too. > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39842 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:28pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi James > > James: Hehehe.actually my responses were very snorky...as usual ;- > ). But I guess I was too subtle for you. > > Phil: hehe back. I knew you were and even wrote "Is this gentle James > setting a trap for me?" but then erased it. But I knew your > seemingly innocuous question was a trap. > > Still, you took my corrections without getting defensive, and that > was appreciated. > I thought afterwards that assuming that people will behave a certain way > is an example of wrong view. People are inconstant. Of course, there are > accumulations that lead to character. > I'm sure we haven't had our last mutual-snork fest! But I imagine they > will become rarer and rarer. > > Phil: Right. As long as you don't go around designating her for hell > anymore! > > James: LOL! Well, I meant what I said. > > Phil: But then the next day you took it back and if I'm not mistaken > admitted that you had mistook her teaching. I know our understanding > changes day by day. That's to be expected. But if you are going to bounce > back and forth on sending K Sujin to hell I think you yourself should be > aware > of the possible consequences. Maybe you will get a bunk bed under > Buddhaghosa! I wonder if he snores? I wrote to you before that it exhausts me to have to defend positions I didn't make, but I guess I will do it again. In my first post on this subject I questioned, get that QUESTIONED (as in not sure), if Kh. Sujin was teaching something dangerous to the dhamma. Nina replied with a post that explained what Kh. Sujin was teaching, how it didn't correspond to the concerns I put forth, and I was satisfied with Nina's answers. I concluded that even though I may not agree with some of what Kh. Sujin teaches or it may not impress me terribly, it still isn't dangerous to the dhamma. At no time did I `designate' Kh. Sujin for hell! LOL! I wrote that rebirth in hell is a possibility for teaching something dangerous to the dhamma, like one who splits the sangha, and I simply mentioned that. So, again, I meant what I wrote the first time, and the second time, and the third time…I have not been switching positions. The problem is, and I don't mean this in a rude way, you are not paying careful attention to the subtle meanings of my posts. The rest of your post somewhat revolves around this issue, and I have to get ready for work, so I will stop there. I also enjoy these exchanges with you because you aren't afraid to show your human side and I believe you have a kind heart. Metta, James 39843 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "AlanLam" wrote: ... Hallo Alan, Thanks for your message. Sarah has given a reaction from her big Theravada-knowledge. I will give a more personal one. I think we should practice all the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path, thus concentration/absorption and mindfulness/insight. The ideal exact mix doesn't exist: depend on the personality of the individual and the cultural context. And to much experimenting (special without a teacher) and spiritual shopping is not good. There are many school in (Theravada-based) meditation, and many claim that their system is the best, bringest us the most far in the path to enlightenment. For this reasons and the fact I have found good vipassana teachers (insight-meditation, Mahasi-style) and don't know (Theravada-based) teachers that can guide me in jhanic meditation, I'm doing now vipassana ombined with metta-meditation. That vipassana is only for beginners: that's only an opinion, doesn't bother me, I will experience in some years. But there is more in your message about what I have another opinion: I don't want to be any more result-oriented in my professional careeer and I don't want to be result-oriented in my spiritual life. That the meditation of Ven. MahaMoghallana can give me the best magical powers of all Arhats: I'm not interested in getting magical powers at all ! That easy because I don't believe such powers exist. You state: "Without jhana state what one contemplates is just mundane or relative truth only. Whereas when one reaches the jhana stage …, when contemplating the dharma factors, one contemplating the supra- mundane or ultimate truth." Well, I don't know that so sure. I know the "two truth theory": conceptual truth versus absolute truth but that not the same as mundane versus supra-mundane, talking about supra-mundane is transcendentalism and (for me) the Buddha was a realist, not a transcendentalist. The second part of your message was in itself clear, but I don't understand the relation of it with the first part, and with my question. Maybe you can explain that a little. Metta Joop 39844 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Joop, ... Dear Sarah Thanks for your kind letter to me. I will react on two topics: 1 Is sabhava, translated as self-nature, not a form of atta-belief ? That was my question, based on the wellknown article of Karunadasa. I have already reacted on the answer a year ago of Nina, because Christine and Ken told me this discussion has alreay been in the dsg. In this place I say: when Nina is right and sabhava means 'characteristics' than I have no problem, I even think it can than even better be translated with 'properties' of dhammas in the same way that in physics particles like an electron have properties. But like the Mahayana-term 'Buddha-Nature' also the term 'self- nature' mades me suspicous: that the very strong and many time unconscious working atta-belief in the dominant Hindu culture of India has been working, and even has influenced commentators. (I don't have his books with me now but I think Kalupahana has influenced me in this topic). 2 What is an orthodox Theravadan view? You are really to humble talking about your limited understanding. - Perhaps it's not nice of nice but exact talking about limited understanding of a 'normal' human being belongs to orthodoxy. To me that term means that there is a big body of knowledge existing outside individual human beings to which I (not enlightened) can only partly get access. - A body of knowledge in the second place that can no more get changed, not under the influence of new empirical facts and not under the infuence of deeper insight; in one of my first messages I said I need a new citta (the 90/122 to to say), a 'social citta', with the content "being aware of and feeling connected with another sentient being, especially with another human being". I got the impression that proposing a new citta, or proposing a change in the system of the 28 (?) rupa's is not possible. - In the third place is, in general terms, an orthodox view a 'greedy view': difficult to be a partly Theravadin and combine that with ideas of Mahayana, natural science and agnosticism. Of course it is possible in this DSG, you have assured me but still it is difficult with so much orthodoxy in the dsg that I think many times: I don't belong in this Forum. - In the fourth place the discussions don't have enough a 'historical dimension', perhaps that is something beling to the Indian culture. It is nearly denied that there is any difference between the Teachings of the Buddha and the Abhidhamma, that there is any difference between the Tipitaka and the commentaries. And when it is not denied it is found found important that and why such differences existed. To me there is an analogy between historical processes and individual processes so it's not just an intellectual but also a spiritual need to know the history of ideas. That's enough for this moment, I think. In another post, to Alan, I have said some things about insight meditation. Metta Joop 39845 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:18pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi James James : I wrote to you before that it exhausts me to have to defend positions I didn't make, but I guess I will do it again. (snip) At no time did I `designate' Kh. Sujin for hell! LOL! Phil: Ok James, you're right. I read too much into that statement. Sorry about that. I know you care about people, and Dhamma, that's why you wrote that - just like the time you asked Jon if he was sure he wasn't in the service of Mara! (I'm afraid I've never been able to see him quite the same way since....) And it's true that I often read people's posts in a very subjective way, assigning meaning to them based on my expectations/needs. Of course, I do that with Dhamma as well. All beginners do. That's the danger of studying the Suttanta without feedback from good Dhamma friends. That's another topic. Metta, Phil 39846 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Life inside a Bottle ... !!! Friends: The Way to Escape: Life is like being caught up inside an empty bottle... Even buzzing much around like a housefly one gets actually nowhere & quite often ends up stone dead, lying heaped up among other corpses on the bottom... The only Way out is Upwards, towards the Light and through the always apparent yet as if hidden hole & out into the open & free space !!! 'Inside the Bottle' signifies the repeated round of rebirth & death, again & again in this Samsara - 'Buzzing Around' signifies the useless & futile urge craving, & monotonic restless stress of life itself! 'Upwards' signifies progress along increased morality, absorbed concentration & insight of understanding! 'The Light' signifies the Buddha-Dhamma to follow & utilize like a guiding lighthouse & torch in the dark... 'The Hole' signifies the Noble 8-fold Way to initiate, develop, expand, refine, purify, complete & perfect! 'Open & Free Space' signifies the Deathless Nibbana; silent & still, safe & same, even & eternal Peace & Bliss !!! Come Along, friends! I'll show it to you! Directly !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 39847 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:18pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 75- Volition/cetanaa (e) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta has a double task, it is ‘exceedingly energetic’. Apart from coordinating the other dhammas, it ‘wills’ kusala or akusala and when it has the intensity to motivate a deed through body, speech or mind, it is capable of producing the result of that deed later on. When we speak about kusala kamma or akusala kamma we usually think of courses of action (kamma pathas) which can be performed through body, speech or mind. However, we should remember that when we perform wholesome or unwholesome deeds it is actually the wholesome or unwholesome volition or intention which motivates the deed and this is the activity of kamma which is accumulated and can produce its appropriate result later on. Thus, akusala kamma and kusala kamma are actually akusala cetanå and kusala cetanå. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39848 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Hello from Member #480 Hi Tep, I remember you and was sorry when you left us. I'm glad to see you back! As I recall, you're Thai American and live in Texas? I also remember you're well-read and have studied the teachings for a long time. I'll look forward to your contributions again. I see you know Chris and others already too. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I became member # 480 a moment ago, when the newest message > number shown was 39,820. That's mean it is impossible for me to catch > with what happened since day 1 here. Perhaps a quick review of 50 - > 100 messages back should be adequate. > > Any recommendation, please? ... Yes, we've all been busy here in your absence;-). Lots of new faces for you to get to know. I suggest you (and any other new members) just start your own threads and then pick up others slowly according to your interests. If you wish to ever read through parts of the archives like a novel, the best way to do this is at the back up site: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Here, you can scroll through easily (off-line if you download) without any ads. In case you are confused at all, there are two on-going texts (in addition to Htoo's series): 1) Visuddhimagga, ch XiV posted by Larry in installments with Nina's summary from the Tika (commentary). They're always delighted if anyone joins in with queeries, comments or even disagreements! 2) 'Cetasikas' by Nina which I'm posting in short installments. At the moment we're working through the Universal Cetasikas - phassa, vedana, sanna and now cetana. I'm always glad when friends chip in here in any shape or form too. Let us know if you have any other qus or comments. Metta, Sarah ========= 39849 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same' Dear Nina, Christine & All, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I remember. Suan wrote about nibbaana and viññaa.na. Here, viññaa.na > means: > what can be known. Thus, in this context it is not consciousness. > Nibbana > can be known by the lokuttara citta which experiences it. .... Thanks for the prompt on Suan's messages. Here are some which friends may like to check (mostly Suan's but one of mine too)which discuss the lines I referred to: vi~n~naa.na /nibbana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16857 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16916 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16922 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16945 This post of yours (Nina's) also includes the Atth detail and reference on Nibbana as nama: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25554 Metta, Sarah ======= > sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > there are just two lines in the Tipitaka > > which particularly have been used (some might say abused!) for much of > the > > Mahayana edifice and these kinds of ideas. One of these is the line > about > > luminous mind (AN1:10)just referred to in my letter to BB (see > 'luminous' > > in UP for more) and the other is the line where vinnana refers to > nibbana > > (and not consciousness) which was discussed in detail before. (I've > just > > forgotten the sutta, MN49, I think). 39850 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:54am Subject: note from an old friend - Gayan! Dear Nina, Sir Mike (!), RobK and old DSGers, Gayan sent me this note about the audio recording from India which I said I'd like to share with you: G:>Downloading everything available in http://www.dhammastudygroup.org , not even missing a single megabyte :) Probably you have been hearing some disturbing news from Sri Lanka.. Monks protesting..Bombs...deaths etc very un-buddhist but still buddhist when we take into account what buddha was warning about time and again. Wish you happy holidays! Metta, Gayan. .... --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > P.s. Gabi will join the next India trip! .... S:Very good news! I hope other DSG friends will consider it too. When I got back, my doctor said I should avoid all such trips in future because of my 'acute allergic reactions', but I said I'd already promised a friend (you!), I'd be joining the next one;-). As you said, K.Sujin is a good model when it comes to not dwelling on one's tiredness/sickness etc. I didn't tell you, but when I went to pick her up after breakfast in Sikkhim, she mentioned she'd been waiting for me to arrange the discussion for quite some time, even though she was quite sick then. One could see that the Dhamma was the best medicine (even if it's bitter for us at times!). In Varanasi she said she'd been waiting for us too;-. Good to hear of Lodewijk's improved health and interest to join again. Metta, Sarah ======== 39851 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > Just by way of complement/contrast, modern science holds that > hearing is the "first" sense, in that it is the first to develop in > the womb, and the last to disappear in the final stages of death. > (Rites for the dying all around the world acknowledge this fact) .... S: I'm not sure there is necessarily any conflict here.... .... > > It is also considered the most immediate sense, in that there is no > escaping sound. The eyes may be closed so that unwanted sights can > be excluded, but no matter how one averts the head, sound is there. .... S: I hear you, Herman. We can only say 'sound is there' when it is heard. Of course, this seems to be all the time, but it isn't. Sense and mind door processes follow each other so rapidly and whilst it seems there is seeing, hearing and thinking at the same time, we know this isn't true. The texts suggest that visible objects are the most commonly experienced, followed by sounds and this is how it would seem to me. Which sense are we most attached to or proliferate most about? I'm sure there are individual differences here. Obviously, as a musician, you're very keenly alert to sounds. We had a discussion (in Jetavana) about which realities people have most difficulty in comprehending and several mentioned visible object for the reasons we've been discussing, but Jon and I answered differently. Different accumulations, that's all. I had kept one of your old posts in which you brought up a very good point about flashes of light and squinting (I forget the details now as I no longer had it). I think it related to some discussions we had in India and subsequently on list with Howard about different moments of seeing visible object and experiencing with unpleasant feeling through the body-sense (which can be in the eye too). I don't know how long you've been following the discussions, but I can try to find the posts on this that we wrote if you like. I know you don't like to be welcomed back, Herman, so I'll just say it's been noted;-). Metta, Sarah ====== 39852 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept and Reality/ Rob M Dear friend James, I understand what you mean. Let us not debate now. Nina. op 15-12-2004 23:58 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > You see, the author has no axe to grind when it comes to > Buddhaghosa, and that is very commendable, but I do have an axe to > grind! Why? I don't want to explain now because I have on numerous > occassions in the past. 39853 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: D.O. avija -> sankharas Hi Nina and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > > There is one text I've found thanks to Sarah, > > but have no idea where is it from: > > > > `...This too is said; `Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms > > formations of merit, forms formations of demerit, forms formations of > > the > > imperturbable. t what cf Sii 82 is. > > N: Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, 6, Tree Suttas, § 51. > > still can't find it. can't even find Samyutta Nikaya on Cause. is it available somewhere on the net? lost, Agrios :) 39854 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: A Hello from Member #480 Hi Sarah, Christine, and Htoo - I am amazed by Sarah's excellent memory. Well, that is definitely an advantage for me; I do not have to re-introduce myself. Thank you all for the warm welcome and the useful tips you gave for this new-again member to get ready here-- an unusual Forum where the information flow is quite rapid. I have noticed the change in Christine's last name. Congratulations! Best wishes to everybody, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I remember you and was sorry when you left us. I'm glad to see you back! > As I recall, you're Thai American and live in Texas? I also remember > you're well-read and have studied the teachings for a long time. I'll look > forward to your contributions again. I see you know Chris and others > already too. > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > I became member # 480 a moment ago, when the newest message > > number shown was 39,820. That's mean it is impossible for me to catch > > with what happened since day 1 here. Perhaps a quick review of 50 - > > 100 messages back should be adequate. > > > > Any recommendation, please? > ... > Yes, we've all been busy here in your absence;-). Lots of new faces for > you to get to know. I suggest you (and any other new members) just start > your own threads and then pick up others slowly according to your > interests. > > If you wish to ever read through parts of the archives like a novel, the > best way to do this is at the back up site: > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > Here, you can scroll through easily (off-line if you download) without any > ads. > > In case you are confused at all, there are two on-going texts (in addition > to Htoo's series): > > 1) Visuddhimagga, ch XiV posted by Larry in installments with Nina's > summary from the Tika (commentary). They're always delighted if anyone > joins in with queeries, comments or even disagreements! > > 2) 'Cetasikas' by Nina which I'm posting in short installments. At the > moment we're working through the Universal Cetasikas - phassa, vedana, > sanna and now cetana. I'm always glad when friends chip in here in any > shape or form too. > > Let us know if you have any other qus or comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= 39855 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi TG, op 15-12-2004 22:08 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: Lets go first to the Dhammasangani, English, p. 342, 343. , but this is a transl of arupa. Do you have the Pali, that is much better. Then p. 341: form (rupa) and nibbana are without objects of thought. Expositor, p. 501. You will see: explaining meanings of nama. The nama-khandhas bend towards(namati) the object and cause one another to bend towards the object. Nibbana bends kusala cittas onto itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object. Nina. > I have the Expositor, a page number would be great if anyone has it handy. I > find the above description fascinating. > > A Nama that doesn't experience? I guess that's like a Rupa that doesn't have > the Four Great Elements. ;-) 39856 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] good health. Dear Azita, I am glad to see you again, I was thinking about you. op 16-12-2004 01:55 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > If this is the case, then the opposite must be: akusala is bad > health. N: In her book on the perfections Kh. Sujin also says that we are like sick people who cannot travel. But on our long journey to the other shore we need the perfections as a medicine. >A: When the sense of urgency arises, I wonder if its kusala or if > its aversion to the idea of continuing endlessly in Samsara, but of > course only the development of right understanding of the presently > arising dhammas will ever really know. 'I' can't, there is no 'I' N: It is good you remind us that a sense of urgency can also be a kind of fear, and that only direct understanding can know. Best wishes for your health, Nina. 39857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Hello from Member #480 Dear Tep and Htoo, Tep, Htoo mentioned your name sometimes and I had the impression that you both had very good and useful Dhamma conversations. Welcome, nice to have you here. Looking forward to your input. Nina. op 15-12-2004 23:09 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:> > You are warmly welcome. I would like to recommend to read useful > messages and give your comments on them here. 39858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. avija -> sankharas Hi Agrios, I use the PTS edition, hardcover. It is the second book of the Kindred Sayings (This has five books). ATI may have it on line. Perhaps Chrisitine could give you a link. Nina. op 16-12-2004 15:14 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: 39859 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:42am Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Phil, Phil: just like the time you asked Jon if he was sure he wasn't in the service of Mara! (I'm afraid I've never been able to see him quite the same way since....) James: LOL! I don't think I asked if he was in the `service' of Mara; that makes him sound like a devil worshipper or something! ;-) I believe I asked him if he was being unduly influenced by Mara (or something to that effect)- because of his rather dogmatic insistence that the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta wasn't really about mindfulness of breathing (it seems to be just too obvious to me to be a difference of opinion). But anyway, we are all influenced by Mara so you really shouldn't see Jon any differently because of my question. I am influenced by Mara, you are influenced by Mara, even Kh. Sujin is influenced by Mara! We are all dancing with the devil! ;-)) The Buddha taught that the only way for the unenlightened to escape the influence of Mara, when Mara cannot read the mind and cause havoc, is during jhana. There's another good reason to cultivate Jhana! ;-) Metta, James 39860 From: Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi, Nina (and TG) - In a message dated 12/16/04 2:18:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi TG, > op 15-12-2004 22:08 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > Lets go first to the Dhammasangani, English, p. 342, 343. form>, but this is a transl of arupa. Do you have the Pali, that is much > better. > Then p. 341: form (rupa) and nibbana are without objects of thought. > Expositor, p. 501. You will see: explaining meanings of nama. The > nama-khandhas bend towards(namati) the object and cause one another to bend > towards the object. Nibbana bends kusala cittas onto itself by means of the > causal relation of the dominant influence of object. > Nina. > >I have the Expositor, a page number would be great if anyone has it handy. > I > >find the above description fascinating. > > > >A Nama that doesn't experience? I guess that's like a Rupa that doesn't > have > >the Four Great Elements. ;-) > > =================== If I may add a personal observation: I don't think that all namas must take an object. Nibbana is an instance of a nama that does not. I think there are other instances as well; for example, I don't think emotions such as happiness, sadness - emotional states of mind, in general - always have objects. If I'm "feeling blue", that sadness need not have an object, though, of course, it has a cause. I'm not at all sure that thoughts have objects in the sense of actual arammanas. To me, a nama is exactly whatever is knowable *only* through the mind door. Of course, the rupa of "water" is, according to Abhidhamma, an exception to my rule. But what good rule doesn't have an exception!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39861 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Sarah (and Herman), Sarah: The texts suggest that visible objects are the most commonly experienced, followed by sounds and this is how it would seem to me. James: I am not so sure that "seeing" is the most important sense sphere simply because it is listed first in the traditional listing, often times in suttas the most important element is listed last. This makes sense because at the end of a rather lengthy list, the last item is going to be the one which remains most fresh in the minds of the listeners and would be the one the Buddha wanted to emphasize most. In this case, "Intellect and Ideas" is traditionally listed last in the six sense spheres. From my perspective, "Intellect and Ideas" is much more significant and occurs more frequently than "Eye and Forms". It just makes more sense to me. Metta, James 39862 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,124 Dear Larry, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Consciousness aggregates happen in this way, how amazing! It arises and passes away. Another thrones and disappears. Next appears and falls away. But Arahatta cuti citta stops the circle. So clear. Thanks. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 124. And after death there is rebirth-linking again; and after > rebirth-linking, life-continuum. Thus the conscious continuity of beings > who hasten through the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of > consciousness], and abode [of beings] occurs without break. But when a > man attains Arahantship here, it ceases with the cessation of his death > consciousness. > > This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the > consciousness aggregate. 39863 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 0:57pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (181) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 14 functions of consciousness. There are 14 functions of citta. The first 8 functions have been discussed in the previous post. They are 1.linking, 2.life-continueing, 3.adverting, 4.seeing, 5.hearing, 6.smelling, 7.tasting, 8.touching. These functions are carried by separate consciousness or citta. No 2 cittas will not be identical and there are a lot of variations. But when we think of character, we will see that there are 89 kinds of consciousness or 89 cittas. Different cittas ( of 89 cittas ) perform different functions. But when their functions are categorized, there will be only 14 functions of citta. So far we have discussed on the first 8 functions. 9th function is receiving function ( sampaticchana kicca ). There is a flow og bhavanga cittas. There arises a rupa. There arises another rupa. The first rupa serves as arammana or object. The second rupa serves as sense door. Both arise at the exact time. As rupa serving as arammmana or object is a clear one, the work of rupa as an object becomes evident in 2nd momental life of arisen rupa. Even those rupa arises and is serving as an object, bhavanga cittas or life continuums are still flowing and they have to arrest and stop at the completion of the 3rd momental life of rupa. Now the rupa approaches its 4th momental life. In the 4th moment, adverting consciousness arises and it adverts the object to next consciousness pancavinnana citta or 5-sense- consciousness. Depending on the rupa which serves as an object, its respective sense-consciousness will arise and will stay for the whole 5th moment. Then it falls away and 5th momental life of rupa lapses. Now it sets in 6th moment. As 5th moment passes away, pancavinnana citta or 5-sense- consciousness passes away. But the object is taken by the next arising citta called sampaticchana citta. This citta just receives the object which has been sensed by pancavinnana citta or 5-sense- consciousness. This new citta,sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness takes the whole 6th moment and then passes away. Now the rupa becomes 6 moments old and approaches the 7th moment. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39864 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:09pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (182) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 14 functions of consciousness. There are 14 functions of citta. The first 9 functions have been discussed in the previous post. They are 1.linking, 2.life-continueing, 3.adverting, 4.seeing, 5.hearing, 6.smelling, 7.tasting, 8.touching, and 9.receiving functions. Now the rupas both rupa which serves as an object and rupa which serves as a sense-base or sense-door become 6 moments old and they both approach their 7th moment of life. The receiving consciousness passes away at the end of the 6th moment. Next arise another citta or consciousness called santirana citta. While sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness just receives the object, santirana citta explores the object. It investigates what the object is like, what it is, how it is and so on. So it is called investigating consciousness. This function can be done by one of 3 santirana cittas. They do the 10th function. Again this citta called 'santirana citta' or investigating consciousness passes away and 7th moment also passes away. Now both rupa of object and rupa of sense-base become 7 moments old and they are approaching their 8th moment of life. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39865 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Phil, .....snip..... But anyway, we are all influenced by > Mara so you really shouldn't see Jon any differently because of my > question. I am influenced by Mara, you are influenced by Mara, even > Kh. Sujin is influenced by Mara! We are all dancing with the > devil! ;-)) The Buddha taught that the only way for the > unenlightened to escape the influence of Mara, when Mara cannot read > the mind and cause havoc, is during jhana. There's another good > reason to cultivate Jhana! ;-) > > Metta, James Hello James and Phil, Sure, but jhanas are conditioned and impermanent just like every other reality [except Nibbana]. As soon as jhanacittas fall away there are conditions for akusala [Mara] to arise and 'have its way'. I see no protection in the jhanas, at least not any lasting protection from Mara. IMHO it can only come from realizing the truth in the dhammas that arise and fall in this present moment. Why run away from this reality and go 'create' another one, in a sense. If the jhanas were part of 'my' accumulations, then I would probably be 'doing' Jhana, or rather jhanacittas would be arising and falling away now. THat doesn't appear to be the case, so I'm content to develop the awareness and understanding of this very moment, seeing, hearing, flavour, hardness, pain etc. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 39866 From: Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. In a message dated 12/16/2004 11:18:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Hi TG, op 15-12-2004 22:08 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: Lets go first to the Dhammasangani, English, p. 342, 343. , but this is a transl of arupa. Do you have the Pali, that is much better. Then p. 341: form (rupa) and nibbana are without objects of thought. Expositor, p. 501. You will see: explaining meanings of nama. The nama-khandhas bend towards(namati) the object and cause one another to bend towards the object. Nibbana bends kusala cittas onto itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object. Nina. Hi Nina I read the references and thanks. To me it sounds like people trying to describe how it works, but don't really know. For myself, I don't think Nibbana bends anything or that it is anything to be bent towards. Conditions support suffering. Nibbana is a term (not a thing or place) that describes -- conditions that are "put out." It is only a "reality" in the sense that "conditions can be put out." Its not a thing of itself. To describe Nibbana as "engaged" with conditions, at any level, to any degree; is to make it a "something." In my mind, that goes against the grain of what the Buddha taught in the Suttas. TG 39867 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (183) Dear Dhamma Friends, In a life, the first citta to arise is linking consciousness or patisandhi citta and the last to arise is cuti citta or dying consciousness. Linking is the 1st function and dying is the last function of citta. As there are 14 functions of citta, cuti citta will do the 14th function. We have discussed on the first 10 functions in the previous post. They are 1.linking, 2.life-continueing, 3.adverting, 4.seeing, 5.hearing, 6.smelling, 7.tasting, 8.touching, 9.receiving, and 10.investigating functions. Now the rupas both 'rupa which serves as an object' and 'rupa which serves as a sense-base or sense-door' become 7 moments old and they both approach their 8th moment of life. The investigating consciousness passes away at the end of the 7th moment. After that next arises another citta or consciousness called votthapana citta or determining consciousness. While santirana citta or investigating consciousness just explores and investigates the object, votthappana citta or determining consciousness decides or determines how the next arising cittas should behave. This citta do the 11th function. This 11th function called determing function or votthapana kicca is done by manodvaravajjana citta or mind-sense-door-adverting consciousness of 89 cittas. This citta called 'votthapana citta' or determining consciousness passes away and 8th moment also passes away. Now both rupa of object and rupa of sense-base become 8 moments old and they are approaching their 9th moment of life. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39868 From: Egbert Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:01pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Sarah and James and all, > Hi Herman, > > > Just by way of complement/contrast, modern science holds that > > hearing is the "first" sense, in that it is the first to develop in > > the womb, and the last to disappear in the final stages of death. > > (Rites for the dying all around the world acknowledge this fact) > .... > S: I'm not sure there is necessarily any conflict here.... > .... I agree, no conflict, but James raised a worthwhile point.... > > > > It is also considered the most immediate sense, in that there is no > > escaping sound. The eyes may be closed so that unwanted sights can > > be excluded, but no matter how one averts the head, sound is there. > .... > S: I hear you, Herman. We can only say 'sound is there' when it is heard. > Of course, this seems to be all the time, but it isn't. Sense and mind > door processes follow each other so rapidly and whilst it seems there is > seeing, hearing and thinking at the same time, we know this isn't true. > The texts suggest that visible objects are the most commonly experienced, > followed by sounds and this is how it would seem to me. I see what you mean :-) This seems like an appropriate spot to make the following point, which has been stewing for a few years (perhaps a bit overcooked by now :-)) Seeing is the knowing of visible object, hearing the knowing of sound etc. This is immediate, unmediated, non-reflexive. Knowing seeing, or knowing hearing etc is not-immediate, it is mediated, it is reflexive, it is the knowing of a knowing, it is consciousness of a consciousness. Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. When it is said that cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. When Freud posited the unconscious, he meant that the unconscious was unconscious relative only to the ego, not to itself. That the mind-generated ego is aware (consciousness of consciousness) of only one consciousness at a time does not mean there is only one consciousness at a time. From the ability of people to drive through a maze of fast-moving objects, whilst being reflexively aware of only their next post to dsg, it is clear that there is a level of knowing which operates very effectively without needing to be known again by itself. What are visible object and sound other than visible object and sound? Are they something lesser than what they are before they are known as having been seen or heard? This is not a metaphysical question. But there is room to doubt the validity of any suggestion that sound becomes sound by virtue of being heard (reflexively in a secondary consciousness) or likewise that visible object becomes so by virtue of being seen. The need for liberation is the need to be liberated from the clutching at reflexive knowing of what has already been and gone and been duly known by itself. Comments very welcome. > > Which sense are we most attached to or proliferate most about? I'm sure > there are individual differences here. Good point! I don't know how long you've been following > the discussions, but I can try to find the posts on this that we wrote if you like. Thanks, but I wouldn't worry about it :-) > > I know you don't like to be welcomed back, Herman, so I'll just say it's > been noted;-). :-) Kind Regards Herman > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 39869 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Hello Azita,(James, Phil) all, Good post Azita. Imo, in jhana (a pleasant abiding), temporary suppression of defilements occurs - not eradication. Eradication requires seeing things as they really are, insight wisdom. So many of the suttas have as their last line: "Then Mara the Evil One -- sad & dejected at realizing, "[name of arahant/disciple] knows me" -- vanished right there." Here is just one example: http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/sn5-10.htm metta and peace, Christie ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi Phil, > .....snip..... > > But anyway, we are all influenced by > > Mara so you really shouldn't see Jon any differently because of my > > question. I am influenced by Mara, you are influenced by Mara, > even > > Kh. Sujin is influenced by Mara! We are all dancing with the > > devil! ;-)) The Buddha taught that the only way for the > > unenlightened to escape the influence of Mara, when Mara cannot > read > > the mind and cause havoc, is during jhana. There's another good > > reason to cultivate Jhana! ;-) > > > > Metta, James > > Hello James and Phil, > > Sure, but jhanas are conditioned and impermanent just like every > other reality [except Nibbana]. As soon as jhanacittas fall away > there are conditions for akusala [Mara] to arise and 'have its way'. > I see no protection in the jhanas, at least not any lasting > protection from Mara. > IMHO it can only come from realizing the truth in the dhammas > that arise and fall in this present moment. Why run away from this > reality and go 'create' another one, in a sense. > > If the jhanas were part of 'my' accumulations, then I would > probably be 'doing' Jhana, or rather jhanacittas would be arising and > falling away now. THat doesn't appear to be the case, so I'm content > to develop the awareness and understanding of this very moment, > seeing, hearing, flavour, hardness, pain etc. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 39870 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Hello from Member #480 Dear Mrs. Van Gorkom, Thank you very much for being so kind to write me this nice welcome message. My knowledge of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, simply looks so small when you are around; something like a candle's light being overwhelmed by the sun. Indeed, I am the one who looks forward to reading your posts (both old and new ones) in order to learn more Dhamma that I have not learned before. With deepest respect, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Htoo, > Tep, Htoo mentioned your name sometimes and I had the impression that you > both had very good and useful Dhamma conversations. Welcome, nice to have > you here. Looking forward to your input. > Nina. > op 15-12-2004 23:09 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:> > > You are warmly welcome. I would like to recommend to read useful > > messages and give your comments on them here. 39871 From: Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Azita - In a message dated 12/16/04 4:21:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > If the jhanas were part of 'my' accumulations, then I would > probably be 'doing' Jhana, or rather jhanacittas would be arising and > falling away now. THat doesn't appear to be the case, so I'm content > to develop the awareness and understanding of this very moment, > seeing, hearing, flavour, hardness, pain etc. > ====================== If you have worked on cultivation of jhanas, consistently and intensely, but have made no progress, then, indeed, they may not be "your thing" at this time. However, if you have not attempted to cultivate them, I would say that there is no reason to presume that you have no knack for them. In any case, the Buddha certainly recommended their cultivation as something very much worth doing, and, so, it might be worthwhile to not readily dismiss them simply due to their not being permanent states. They do serve to usefully cultivate the mind, making it a fit tool. Also, if you think about it, neither is path consciousness permanent! ;-)) So dismissal on the basis of impermanence is not such a great idea. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39872 From: plnao Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:19pm Subject: The 37 factors as Fourth Noble Truth? Heresy or helpful? Hello all These days I'm thinking about something I was discussing with James. Why is it that my "mind doesn't leap up" when it comes to The Noble Eightfold Path? These days I'm wondering if the 37 factors (I forget the Pali) which includes the Noble Eightfold Path doesn't inspire me more directly as a Fourth Noble Truth. The 4 Right Efforts, for example (included in the 37 factors) make my mind leap up and lead to practice here and now in a way that the Noble Eightfold Path doesn't, for some reason. Anyways, that's what I'm thinking about today. A passage from SN XXII81: Then Ven. Ananda went with those monks to where the Blessed One was staying in Parileyyaka, at the root of the Auspicious Sal Tree, and on arrival, after bowing down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, the Blessed One instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged them with a talk on Dhamma. Now, on that occasion this train of thought appeared in the awareness of one of the monks: "Now I wonder -- knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents?" The Blessed One, perceiving with his awareness the train of thought in the monk's awareness, said to the monks, "I have analyzed & taught you the Dhamma, monks. I have analyzed & taught you the four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, & the noble eightfold path. And yet, even though I have analyzed & taught you the Dhamma, still there appears this train of thought in the awareness of one of the monks: 'Now I wonder -- knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents?' (BTW, that final question is a nice one to leave hanging for you! :) ) I note that the Buddha defines his teaching in terms of these 37 factors rather than the Eightfold Noble Path alone. I am feeling that while the Eightfold Path points at our destination, these 37 factors point at a practice that can be developed (patiently, of course, without hunger for results) in order to move towards that destination. I wonder if anyone else has ever wondered about this. Why does the Buddha defines his teaching in these terms to the monks in this sutta, and why doesn't he do so in his exposition of The Four Noble Truths. If a person were to take these 37 factors as his or her Fourth Noble Truth rather than The Eightfold Noble Path alone, what would the dangers or benefits be? To me, these 37 factors feel much more inspiring and "mind-leaps up"-ing than the Eightfold Noble Path alone. BTW, it seems that Naomi has decided that it is time to tackle the problem we've been having with our computer, so she is disabling all our programs. I don't know the details, but we'll be off e-mail while we do this, and... ...anyways, I will be away for a while, or so it seems. Or perhaps the problem with be fixed tout de suite. In case it takes longer, wishing you all well, and welcome to our new member Tep. Metta, Phil 39873 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 76- Volition/cetanaa (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Akusala cetanå and kusala cetanå can have many intensities, they can be coarse or more subtle. When they are more subtle they do not motivate kamma pathas, courses of action, through body, speech or mind. For example, when we like our food there is lobha-múla-citta and it is accompanied by akusala cetanå. Although the lobha-múla-citta does not motivate an unwholesome course of action, it is not kusala but akusala; it is different from kusala citta with generosity, from kusala citta which observes síla or from kusala citta which applies itself to mental development. Whenever we do not apply ourselves to dåna, síla or bhåvanå, we act, speak or think with akusala cittas. Thus, there is likely to be akusala citta very often in a day, since the moments we apply ourselves to kusala are very rare. There is likely to be akusala citta when we take hold of objects, eat, drink or talk. When we laugh there is lobha-múla citta. We may not realize that there is akusala citta when the degree of akusala does not have the intensity of harming others, but in fact there are countless moments of akusala citta. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39874 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:02pm Subject: Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Sarah In the first place, we should ask are jhanas as described in the Nikayas towards the culimination of enlightement is mundane or supramundane. If the jhanas in MN are the same as mundane, then Buddha would have become enlighted much earlier when he study mundane arupas jhanas from his past two teachers before he was a Buddha. In MN 1 (which is loved by Rob M :-) ), Buddha talks about jhanas all the way to arupa jhanas and he says there is a difference between a worlding, a noble one (who have not yet reach Arahant), an Arahant and Buddha himself. It is very clear in that sutta that even though a worlding can attain arupa jhanas or the 4th jhanas, he still will not fully understand as really it is. To exert that it is not supradmundane jhanas then the whole of Nikayas will be at stake because there are many instances where Buddha describe a difference between mundane and supramundane jhanas. Another sutta to show the difference A (IV, 123), The Jhanas and Rebirth <> [My note - this is the same till the four jhanas] I have still not discuss whether is right concentration just only jhanas - there are many suttas quote about right concentration - that is for another dicussion, if we wish to explore it further. Ken O 39875 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 0:42am Subject: Suravira (was : Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) Dear Suravira, You made a number of interesting comments in a post under this subject heading to Howard, et al#38971 I meant to respond at the time, but was rather hoping others would be;-). I'll just list a number of points that I think need clarification and be happy to discuss any of them further. I apologize in advance for any misunderstanding - sometimes I'm not always clear on your meaning. You were referring in part to a book of Sujin's translated by Nina, maybe 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'?? (Pls post any extracts for discussion if it helps). ***** 1. You mention that in some translations, 'absolute reality' is 'promoted as 'the truth' '. Absolute reality (paramattha dhamma) refers to what truly arises and falls at this very moment as we speak. The words are not important, but seeing, hearing, like, dislike, feeling and so on are all examples. 2. You say 'conventional reality' is 'addressed as if it were debased relative to 'absolute reality' '. A cup, a person, a tree are conventional realities. I have no idea about them being 'debased' but they are not 'absolute realities' that can be directly experienced. 3.You say that 'as we refine perception (panna) through the bodhisattva discipline of meditation, our awareness of the nature of paramattha dhammas, as they arise and fall away, becomes enhanced.' I'd just like to stress that the Buddha did not encourage us to 'refine.....through the bodhisattva.......'. He taught us to develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear. 4. You refer to abiding inside and outside a state of insight with a different mode of consciousness and false views abating for a moment at stream entry. At stream entry, as you know well, false views are eradicated for good. So, yes, a sotapanna uses a 'conventional perspective of truth' but no wrong views associated with them. 5.You continue to talk about the subject-object duality and I get rather lost. I'd just like to stress that the realities, the paramattha dhammas of life, are the same regardless of whether there is any understanding of them or not. Seeing or hearing are seeing and hearing whether or not there is ever any awareness of knowing about them or not. 6. You say 'the conventional and absolute are NOT separate'. Again, I'm missing your point. Hearing, sound and ideas of a sound are all quite different and separate. The various ideas we have, the concepts about a sound, cover up the true realities. 7. You say it is 'within the conventional perspective that we undertake the refinement of perception so that we are capable of realizing the nature of paramattha dhammas'. This makes it sound as if realities can be known by thinking and by a self or 'we' doing something. Paramattha dhammas can only ever be known or realized by directly understanding their characteristics when they appear, now. 8.You go on to say that as unenlightened people, 'our perspective, intention and understanding are not rooted in this truth -nirvana'. However, when we're talking here about paramattha dhammas and the development of understanding, we're not talking about nibbana/nirvana. I think you are introducing Mahayana ideas into what you read in A.Sujin's books etc. Nibbana (the unconditioned reality) is eventually realized according to the Buddha's teaching by understanding conditioned realities for what they are. This is why there are 4 Noble Truths. 9. Again you say that 'our daily life forms upon the paramattha dhammas - forms upon nirvana'. The Buddha doesn't say that seeing or hearing 'form upon nirvana'. We cannot say this. Again, it's a Mahayana idea not found in the Tipitaka as I understand it. To be honest, it doesn't make any sense to me regardless of the source. 10. Finally, and the main point in what you wrote I think, you say that you object to the word 'reality' instead of 'perspective' which doesn't carry the same 'existential baggage'. It's true that no words are ideal. However, if we again use the examples of seeing, hearing, sound, like, dislike and so on, 'perspective' would suggest some idea or orientation. Seeing or hearing are 'real' and directly knowable at this very moment. They can be tested out and proven whereas a perspective will depend on our ideas only. We can just use 'dhamma' as others have suggested, but make it clear that it has nothing in this context to do with perspective or conventional/conceptual ideas. 11. Finally, in another post #38703, you asked me about feelings from 'Cetasikas' and Howard already responded. I think it's very important to clearly distinguish between namas and rupas. Feelings are always namas, so while it's true that usually there are pleasant feelings on account of pleasant objects and vice versa, I'm not sure we can talk about feelings 'conveying an aspect of the object' experienced. Seeing is accompanied by a neutral feeling only when it experiences a pleasant or unpleasant object. Subsequent pleasant and unpleasant feelings follow, but the seeing, the visible object and the feelings all have they own characteristics and conditions for arising. Metta, Sarah ====== 39876 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Howard, … --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Warning to the casual reader: The following involves a lot of > technical analysis and theorizing that may well be disconcerting if not > outright > upsetting. …. S:;-) Anyway, I was glad to read it – I know you don’t mind if I’m slow to respond… …. > Howard: > If a conditioning force were a reality, not imagined, then it > would be > either rupa, citta, cetasika, or nibbana. …. S: Yes …. Also, a "conditioning force", > if > there were such a beast, would not itself be a relation, but a cause for > a > relation. …. S: Yes. Back to the intro to the Patthana: “Force (satti). It is that which has the power to bring about or accomplish…..the force of root condition (conditioning force) inherent in the state of greed, which is one of the six roots, cannot exist apart from that state.” In other words., the root condition is merely the nature or characteristic of lobha in this case. This root or lobha condition has the power to affect other cetasikas and cittas and also rupas. …. > In any case, notions of "conditioning forces" at the level of > reality > must be very suspect. The Buddha replaced the old, substantialist ideas > of > hidden forces of causality by conditionality, which simply comes down to > "When > this is, that is, and when this arises, that arises". This is part of > what > distinguished the Buddha's notion of idappaccayata from the > substantialist > causality theories of his predecessors. …. S: Yes, no problem. When there is lobha (as root condition), it has the power or force to bring about/condition various dhammas. No self or thing or essence involved. …. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The force of greed cannot exist apart from *what* state? Greed > cannot > exist apart from greed? I don't get what is being said here. … S: If there is no greed, there is conditioning factor or force of greed. That’s all. It’s just to show that the conditioning force is not a mere concept separate from the reality. …. >If by > "state" is > meant the citta as mindstate, as opposed to citta as the operation of > awareness (vi~n~nana), then what exactly is a mindstate? …. S: In this example, it was referring to lobha, the cetasika or root. There cannot be a greedy citta which is not rooted in lobha. …. >It seems to be > a collection > consisting of co-occurring awareness (citta in the 1st sense - > vi~n~nana), > cetasikas, and arammana. But any collection is pa~n~natti. Is then the > root > condition of greed, as a relation, a relation between a nama dhamma > (greed) and a > pa~n~natti (the mindstate)? In any case, the *force* of greed, whatever > sort of > thing that is supposed to be, is not itself a relation. It seems to me > that no > matter how any of this matter is turned, it doesn't bear scrutiny very > well. …. S: See above;-). The relation is nothing other than the conditioning ‘state’ (here lobha) and the conditioned ‘state’, here lobha too. To give an analogy (which may or may not work) – the relation between me and my little great niece is a concept we use for convenience. Really, it’s just a way of explaining the particular connection between me and the baby only. In the case of lobha conditioning lobha, the’ relation’ is a concept based on the characteristics of the realities involved. ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay, so the "force" terminology is superfluous. We are talking > about > greed. What is the greed related to by the greed-root-relation, and in > exactly > what way? That is - what exactly is the relation being talked about, and > is > that relation merely concept or is it reality? If it is reality, it must > fall > into one of the categories of rupa, citta, cetasika, and nibbana. > ----------------------------------------- .... S: As I said, the relation is a concept based on the nature and function of these particular realities. You often rightly refer to how namas cannot arise without rupas in the sense sphere realm. This is another example of conditions. Seeing (a nama) has to experience visible object (a rupa) and has to have eye-base as support. We speak about the relations or various conditions involved conceptually, but in fact they are all aspects of the dhammas involved. The nature of seeing is that it needs various ‘supports’ in order to arise. This is not imagined. …. > Howard: > Ahh, okay. Here we are starting to zero-in on matters. There is > nothing more than the conditioning and conditioned states. That means > that *there > are no relations*. There are relations only in a manner of speaking. …. S: Yes – just like the analogy of me and the great niece. …. > Relations > are (well grounded) concepts, and nothing more. Okay. That may well be > so! > Relations may well be not events of the type I hypothesized, > multi-phenomenal and > often trans-temporal events. But, then, they are actually nothing at > all. We > can make true statements of syntactically relational form about dhammas, > but we > may not countenance such "things" as actual relations. I will definitely > buy > that! …. S: Good! At the same time, I don’t think we should underestimate what deepened insight can know directly about these particular aspects of realities, such as their conditioned nature. Without the right causes, they cannot come to be. …. >But what does that tell us about concepts? It says to me that at > least > until we are arahants, there is no proper grasping of reality that does > not > indispensably depend on concepts. > ------------------------------------------------ …. S: We need to use concepts to explain and discuss, but at moments of awareness, no concept involved. By developing awareness and understanding, we’ll be less and less reliant on conceptual understanding. …. > Howard: > Okay. But look at what would be not known without the concepts > that > take us beyond these dhammas to their characteristics and the relations > among > them. The so called characteristics "to be conditioned, function and > manifest" > in certain ways (of the dhamma, greed, for example) are not the dhamma > itself. > These are to be known by inference by us. Moreover, these > characteristics are > actually nothing at all - as you say. They are concept only. All there > actually are are the dhammas (e.g., greed). … S: Again. let me stress that many of the details we read about with regard to the complexities of conditional relations can only ever be fully understood by a Buddha and maybe a few key disciples. Everything is taught, but not because it all has to be directly known. However, these characteristics or truths about dhammas such as the way they are conditioned, function and manifest, are not mere concepts. They are inherent in the dhammas being referred to. For example, the accumulating aspect of lobha each time it arises is a truth about it which can be directly known when it arises, if panna has been developed. In our own simple way, we can prove it in daily life. Like Phil gave the example before on reflecting or dwelling on anger, I think, and how it just let to more thinking and dwelling on anger. …. > Howard: > Okay. So you agree that contiguity relation is pa~n~natti. … S: I don’t think I agreed that;-). It’s pannatti now as we discuss it, but the law of cittas following cittas is not merely pannatti, it is their nature to condition each other. …. >That > looks > to me like pa~n~natti are essential aspects of "reality", no? …. S: No. …. >If we > throw out > pa~n~natti as mere illusion, then we throw out the tilakkhana and all > properties and relations. …. S: No, …. >Doesn't it start to seem to you, Sarah, that > all this > analysis is an empty house of cards, and that no matter how we try to > describe > reality, the description falls apart? … S: No;-) … > It does to me. All that I am > starting to see > left is that this is a world of empty appearance, with nothing to hold > onto, > nothing independent, nothing substantial or self-existent, and all > worthy only > of relinquishment. (Nagarjuna is looking more and more attractive to me > at > this moment.) … S: This is mere thinking and more pannatti – nothing to do with understanding dhammas (realities), my main objection to Nagarjuna from the little I’ve read. …. S:> > The relation or niyama is merely a way of describing the cittas and > > cetasikas (4 or the 5 khandhas), to explain one of the ways in which > they > > are conditioned to arise. The conditioned nature is an integral aspect > of > > all dhammas (apart from nibbana) and is clearly comprehended directly > (not > > by thinking or calculating) at the second stage of insight. > > > > To stress, there is no relation apart from the relating and related > > realities (paramattha dhammas) here. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. I buy that! :-) > -------------------------------------- S: Wow! Time to stop;-_ … > Howard: > In a way, I feel obliged to apologize for pushing with regard to > these > matters. I'm afraid it may be upsetting to some. But I feel that it is > important to scrutinize carefully, and to seriously question in this > area. I see > some real problems here, and not the least of them being the inherent > inadequacy > in all analytical, conceptual, inferential schemes, including > Abhidhamma. > ------------------------------------- … S: Howard, I honestly don’t know why any of this would be in the slightest bit upsetting to anyone here. I think it’s a good and important topic and you’re raising excellent questions – all ones I’ve sstruggle with raised with K.Sujin in the past too. (I’m not suggesting I have all the answers now, and appreciate the opportunity to reflect further with you). Discussing such areas and aspects of the Abhidhamma (and the rest of the Tipitaka of course) is just what we’re all here for. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your comments to Antony on guarding the sense doors #39558 Re the film you mentioned, we can see the extremes of wrong view and practice! I’m glad ‘the implication was that his efforts were poorly directed’. Middle Way understanding again, rather than moving around the deck-chairs or poking out eyes in the extreme. ========= 39877 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:25am Subject: Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Azita, Azita: I see no protection in the jhanas, at least not any lasting protection from Mara. James: These are two different statements: 1. I see no protection the the jhanas; 2. I see no lasting protection in the jhanas. Concerning number one, this is a false statement. The jhanas do provide protection from Mara. The Buddha taught that the jhanas make Mara "blind". Concerning the second statement, I agree with you that they don't provide lasting protection, only enlightenment provides lasting protection. However, until enlightenment, some protection is better than none, right? Azita: IMHO it can only come from realizing the truth in the dhammas that arise and fall in this present moment. Why run away from this reality and go 'create' another one, in a sense. James: The jhanas make the mind strong and pliable to do the work of seeing the dhammas of the present moment, that one of the reasons why the Buddha extolled his bhikkhus and laypeople to practice them. Not only that, sometimes the worldling would like to take a break from this banal existence and the jhanas would be a much better alternative than drugs and alcohol, right? Azita: If the jhanas were part of 'my' accumulations, then I would probably be 'doing' Jhana, or rather jhanacittas would be arising and falling away now. James: I'm not sure who told you this (Kh. Sujin?) but it isn't true. Jhana doesn't arise spontaneously; jhana takes proper effort and a concentration subject (kasina) which would be most appropriate for your accumulations. Azita: THat doesn't appear to be the case, so I'm content to develop the awareness and understanding of this very moment, seeing, hearing, flavour, hardness, pain etc. James: Okay. If you are content with that level of awareness (mundane) then I wish you luck in your practice. However, I hope that you haven't reached this decision because you have sold yourself short based on false information. Metta, James 39878 From: AlanLam Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > In the first place, we should ask are jhanas as described in the > Nikayas towards the culimination of enlightement is mundane or > supramundane. If the jhanas in MN are the same as mundane, then > Buddha would have become enlighted much earlier when he study > mundane arupas jhanas from his past two teachers before he was a > Buddha. > > In MN 1 (which is loved by Rob M :-) ), Buddha talks about jhanas > all the way to arupa jhanas and he says there is a difference > between a worlding, a noble one (who have not yet reach Arahant), an > Arahant and Buddha himself. It is very clear in that sutta that even > though a worlding can attain arupa jhanas or the 4th jhanas, he > still will not fully understand as really it is. > > To exert that it is not supradmundane jhanas then the whole of > Nikayas will be at stake because there are many instances where > Buddha describe a difference between mundane and supramundane > jhanas. Another sutta to show the difference <.....> Hi Ken, I have read many of your interesting articles. I am in reply to your respond to Ms. Sarah on the following. Hope this exchange we could learn from each other, especially from you more. I am 100% in total agreement with you that if used 100% just only Jhaana, it leads one to nowhere, but just Bramah realm or the Heaven realm as described in various suttas, and your comments above too. I also fully do agree with you that if just Jhaanas itself, Buddha would have been enlightened with his previous 2 teachers. What I am saying here in my previous response, is to CHANGE TRACK once, after having achieved Jhaana to Vipassana. Here one need not have to achieve 2nd, 3rd or 4th Jhaana, but with either Access or Entering Concentration or with 1st Jhaana. For example, When one needs to cut a tree down faster and effectively, one needs a "HEAVY" Axe with a "SHARP" Edge. The 'HEAVINESS" being the "JHAANA" and the "SHARPNESS" being the "VIPASSANA". Ven. Mahasi taught the excellent way using "Access and or Entering Concentration", with just enough power to be mindful of the arising and dissolution of the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 objects of craving. When one's breath is very, very still and subtle, one's mind will be very mindfully alert and sharp. This is the right moment to then mindfull of all the arising and or dissolution of the Dharma factors. Before that when those objects does arise, one just comtemplate "mindful" , "mindful of sound", mindful of Vedhana", "mindfull of smell", mindfull of thoughts", Mindfull of sights" etc. without contemplating its rapid arsing and dissolution in details each object. The Vipassana path starts once the mind is still, clear and sharp. Yes, that's is the right moment then. As one pursue on with Vipassana mindfullness, and master over it, one will then eventually does achieve Jhaana while in the process of being mindful of those objects and subjects rapidly arising and dissolution, bbeing aggreagates and being NamRupa etc. Hence, what I was trying to convey above earlier, was implying that it is better to have Jhaana and then start to pursue Vipassana mindfullness. From your kind respond, it seems you did not perceive this criteria but just on the issue of sole Jhaana only. Thanking you in advance for your kind opinion. With best regards and Metta. Alan 39879 From: Egbert Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Dear Joop, Sorry for butting in here... > - In the third place is, in general terms, an orthodox view a 'greedy > view': difficult to be a partly Theravadin and combine that with > ideas of Mahayana, natural science and agnosticism. Of course it is > possible in this DSG, you have assured me but still it is difficult > with so much orthodoxy in the dsg that I think many times: I don't > belong in this Forum. If you don't belong here, than most of us don't. It is less and less that I get the idea that dsg is the vehicle for pushing a particular view, and more and more I get the idea there is an honest exchange happening here. ( I haven't heard anyone sputtering about the moderators for what seems like an eternity :-)) Personally, I appreciate your posts very much. I also respect greatly the Great Philosophical (deliberate capitals) Traditions in which you are obviously very well versed. If there was less of Joop here, there would be more orthodoxy. The conclusion is obvious :-) Kind Regards Herman 39880 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: lost again :) Hi Agrios, I hope you don't mind me replying to the list. I quite understand, the references can be very confusing and they vary from one translation to the next. Sometimes the refs are to the Pali. --- agriosinski wrote: > could you please link for me your post Nina is reffering to > in D.O. avija -> sankhara thread? > The one with: > Sarah: So ignorance of dependent origination and of the inherent > unsatisfactoriness of all formations, including wholesome or > profitable > volitions, even of arupa jhanas, propels the cycle continuously from > moment to moment, life to life `like one who has lost his way and > takes > the road to a goblin city'. .... S: This reference of mine was from the Dispeller of Delusion (translation of the Sammohavinodanii), comy to the Vibhanga (Abhidhamma text, PTS,Classification of the Structure of Conditions, 662. At the end of the quote, it said: "This too is said: 'Not knowing, bhikkhus, as a bhikkhu's ignorance is abandoned and clear vision is arisen, bhikkhus, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he does not form even formations of merit' (cf Sii 82). As Nina, said, this is a reference to Samyutta Nikaya, Nidanasamyutta. In the B.Bodhi translation it's under V1 Suffering (or the Tree), 12:51(1), p.586: "Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance generates a meritorious volitional formation, consciousness fares on to the meritorious; if he generates a demeritorious......imperturbable......But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious....imperturbable....Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbana......" Agrios, there is a wealth of detail in the section of the Dispeller I quoted from before. I can try to find more if you have any particular qus/comments. Hope this helps. Excellent questions and I'm glad to look at the sutta. Metta, Sarah ======== 39881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg]Nibbana Hi TG, op 16-12-2004 22:17 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...:> > I read the references and thanks. To me it sounds like people trying to > describe how it works, but don't really know. For myself, I don't think > Nibbana bends anything or that it is anything to be bent towards. Conditions support > suffering. Nibbana is a term (not a thing or place) that describes -- > conditions that are "put out." It is only a "reality" in the sense that > "conditions can be put out." Its not a thing of itself. N: I agree with you. Nibbana is not a self. Only the term bending needs more clarification. The text is < Nibbana bends kusala cittas onto itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object.> The text only says that nibbana is the object of the citta that experiences it. It conditions citta by way of object-condition, object-predominance condiiton (Guide to Conditional Relations, u. Narada, p. 97), object strong dependence-condition. Thus, we should not think of something that does something. Nibbana is nama, it is not rupa. But it is not a conditioned nama like citta and cetasika. It does not experience an object, but it is experienced. That is all that the text explains, using the word namati, to bend. The Dhsg text repeats: asankhata dhatu: the unconditioned element. TG: To describe Nibbana as "engaged" with conditions, at any level, to any > degree; is to make it a "something." In my mind, that goes against the grain > of what the Buddha taught in the Suttas. N: Of course, nibbana is not doing something. When the time is ripe the unconditioned dhamma can be experienced by lokuttara cittas. As we read in the Visuddhimagga text, after the dying-consciousness of the arahat there are no more conditions for the traversing of the round. As you say: conditions are put out. Nina. 39882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana Hi Howard, op 16-12-2004 21:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: ... I don't think that all namas must > take an object. Nibbana is an instance of a nama that does not. I think there > are other instances as well; for example, I don't think emotions such as > happiness, sadness - emotional states of mind, in general - always have > objects. If I'm "feeling blue", that sadness need not have an object, though, of > course, it has a cause. N: Cittas, feelings, emotions, arise and fall away incredibly fast. We cannot trace what object each of these experience. But they experience something, they are not dead matter. That something is an object. Feeling sad or uneasy: at such moments there is a combination of many sensations and these also condition bodily unpleasant feeling, such as a pain in the chest. We have immediately aversion of our aversion, then aversion is the object of annoyance. Or unhappy feeling is the object. We feel unhappy about unhappy feeling. When pañña can know dhammas that appear one at a time there will be more clarity. H: I'm not at all sure that thoughts have objects in the sense > of actual arammanas. > To me, a nama is exactly whatever is knowable *only* through the mind > door. N: Right, nama can only be known through the mind-door. H: Of course, the rupa of "water" is, according to Abhidhamma, an exception > to my rule. But what good rule doesn't have an exception!! > ;-)) N: Sense objects such as sound are known through a sense-door and then through the mind-door. But there are many other rupas that can be known only through the mind-door.Take for instance earsense. Seeing sees what is visible, hearing hears sound. It sounds simple, but it is difficult to have right understanding of nama and rupa. Still, it is basic for the development of insight. We hear this: Do we really understand this? Nina. 39883 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:40am Subject: Vis. XIV, 124 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 124 and Tiika Vis. text: And after death there is rebirth-linking again; and after rebirth-linking, life-continuum. Thus the conscious continuity of beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of consciousness], and abode [of beings] occurs without break. N: ...of beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming, in Pali: sa.msaramaanaana.m sattaana.m. The word sa.msarati means:come again and again, traverse one life after the other. As to the words, the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of consciousness], and abode [of beings], the Tiika mentions: three kinds of becoming, five destinies, six states of consciousness and nine abodes of beings, but it does not give details. These can be found elsewhere. In the Recital (D, III, p. 209, XXI): three planes of rebirth, bhava, : of sense desires, of ruupajhaana, of aruupajhaana. Five destinies, gati, : of hell, animal world, ghosts (petas), mankind, devas (Recital (D, III, p. 225). Six states of consciousness: Co to D. III, Recital, (p. 1034): seeing-consciousness, the kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka that is dependent on eyesense, and so for the other four sense-cognitions, and the sixth is mind-consciousness, mano-viññaa.na (see D III, p. 230, VI, 1). Nine abodes of beings, avaasa, : the place where they are reborn. The Gradual Sayings refers to some of these: the place of birth of men, of some devas, of demons, the brahma worlds where those are born who cultivated stages of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana. The texts remind us of the danger of rebirth. We do not know which kamma will produce which kind of rebirth at a particular moment in the cycle. Vis. text: But when a man attains Arahantship here, it ceases with the cessation of his death consciousness. N: The Tiika explains that the word , etthaa, refers to the beimgs who go around in the cycle. Tiika text: as to the words, but he who has accomplished arahatship (yo pana arahatta.m paapu.naati) this means, by the right practice which is in accordance with it For the arahat there is indeed cessation because there is no more rebirth (tassa arahato niruddhameva hoti citta.m appa.tisandhikabhaavato). N: For the attainment of arahatship, there must be the right practice so that this goal can be reached. Paññaa has to be developed until it eradicates all latent tendencies. Vis. Text: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the consciousness aggregate. N. Before we realize it the process of cittas is over, it is followed by bhavanga-cittas and then another process begins again. And so it is life after life. Until ignorance has been eradicated when arahatship is attained. The study of the processes of cittas and the bhavangacittas that arise in between teaches us that dhammas roll on without a doer. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p.212) compares this with the rolling on like the wheel of a cart in due order. <[They] occur, rolling on, until the roots of the round of rebirths are completely cut off...> This can give us a sense of urgency to develop understanding at this moment so that ignorance can be eradicated. Thus far the Vis. has dealt with the khandha of consciousness. We learnt about the different classifications of citta. They can be classified according to jaati or nature, as kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. They can be classified according to plane of citta, as sensuous plane, ruupa-jhaana citta, aruupajhaanacitta and lokuttara citta. They can be classified in accordance with the plane of existence where they arise, with the accompanying roots, hetus, with the accompanying feelings. They can be classified according to the functions they perform in the processes, and outside the processes. The Vis.XIV, 81 states: N: Citta and cetasikas are classified as four naama-khandhas, they are dhammas that experience an object. Citta cognizes an object and the accompanying cetasikas share the same object, but citta is the principal or forerunner in cognizing an object. The naama-khandhas that arise together are of the same nature (jaati) of kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. They are of the same plane of citta: sense sphere, rupa-jhana, arupa-jhana or lokuttara. Thus, if the consciousness aggregate is understood first, the other three naama khandhas will be understood more easily. In the following sections the Vis. will deal with the other naama-khandhas which are the cetasikas. **** Nina 39884 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > If you don't belong here, than most of us don't. It is less and less > that I get the idea that dsg is the vehicle for pushing a particular > view, and more and more I get the idea there is an honest exchange > happening here. ( I haven't heard anyone sputtering about the > moderators for what seems like an eternity :-)) > > Personally, I appreciate your posts very much. I also respect > greatly the Great Philosophical (deliberate capitals) Traditions in > which you are obviously very well versed. If there was less of Joop > here, there would be more orthodoxy. The conclusion is obvious :-) > > Kind Regards > > Herman Dear Herman Thanks. I will not say again "perhaps I leave this dsg. I leave or leave not (or lurk a time, like you did) And, more important, I contnue my buddhistic path, with steps in Theravada and steps in Mahayana. And I( hope tot get to a western, a modern, a global, a critical Buddhism in one day Metta Joop 39885 From: Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:42am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/17/04 4:39:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > … --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Warning to the casual reader: The following involves a lot of > >technical analysis and theorizing that may well be disconcerting if not > >outright > >upsetting. > …. > S:;-) Anyway, I was glad to read it – I know you don’t mind if I’m slow to > respond… > …. > >Howard: > > If a conditioning force were a reality, not imagined, then it > >would be > >either rupa, citta, cetasika, or nibbana. > …. > S: Yes > …. > Also, a "conditioning force", > >if > >there were such a beast, would not itself be a relation, but a cause for > >a > >relation. > …. > S: Yes. Back to the intro to the Patthana: > > “Force (satti). It is that which has the power to bring about or > accomplish…..the force of root condition (conditioning force) inherent in > the state of greed, which is one of the six roots, cannot exist apart from > that state.â€? > > In other words., the root condition is merely the nature or characteristic > of lobha in this case. This root or lobha condition has the power to > affect other cetasikas and cittas and also rupas. > …. > > In any case, notions of "conditioning forces" at the level of > >reality > >must be very suspect. The Buddha replaced the old, substantialist ideas > >of > >hidden forces of causality by conditionality, which simply comes down to > >"When > >this is, that is, and when this arises, that arises". This is part of > >what > >distinguished the Buddha's notion of idappaccayata from the > >substantialist > >causality theories of his predecessors. > …. > S: Yes, no problem. When there is lobha (as root condition), it has the > power or force to bring about/condition various dhammas. No self or thing > or essence involved. > =========================== My understanding of your take on relations is the following: 1) It is a fact that conditions are such that the coming together of certain ones of them are occurrences that are necessary and sufficient for the arising, at the same time or later, of various other conditions. 2) Conditions (dhammas), together with their features, are what are realities. 3) The characteristics of some conditions to lead to others when in proper combination with other conditions, as well as the characteristics of some conditions to depend, for their arising, upon such other groups of conditions, are among the important features of dhammas. Relations, per se, are not realities, but are merely conventional ways of thinking and speaking about the conditioning and conditionable features of dhammas as outlined above. 4) The Patthana, while ostensibly about "conditional relations", is actually about dhammas and their characteristics of serving as conditions for other dhammas and as owing their existence to the simultaneous or earlier occurrence of other conditions. 5) When you speak of "forces" and the "power" to make other dhammas arise, this is only a manner of speaking. You are not presuming hidden, substantial forces and powers. This is just a way of speaking about conditionality in the sense of "when this is, that is. When this arises, that arises", where the conditionality is regular, dependable, and objective. (Again, I think of the example of a farmer explaining that a sprout has the power to grow into a plant, and then looking askance at the city dweller who asks him where in the sprout that power is to be found! ;-) If my understanding expressed above of your position is on target, then I do think that your position is quite reasonable and certainly quite Buddhist. Still I wonder a bit about possible alternatives that confer more than mere conventional reality to relations. It is certainly clear to me that general relations such as "temporal predecessor relation" and "cooccurrence relation" are merely well-founded concepts. For that matter, general rupas such as "hardness" and "warmth" and general dhammas such as "pleasant feeling" and "anger" are also merely well-founded concepts. Any specific hardness or warmth or pleasant feeling or anger is an actual experiential occurrence, and is not concept. Likewise, it seems possible to me that any specific co-occurring of dhammas and any specific preceding of a dhamma by another are experiential realities as well. I'm afraid that if we accord only 2nd class status to (concrete) relations, that is, to specific instances/occurrences of "relations", then we may be committing ourselves, except conventionally, to a static view of things. There is certainly a problem with reifying relations - there is no doubt about that. But there is also a problem with according them only conventional reality, which means actually denying them any existence at all from an ultimate perspective. I think there may be the need for some sort of middle-way perspective on this matter. One possible approach, that I'm not prepared at this point to dismiss outright, may be that of viewing concrete relations as kinds of real events, specifically multi-phenomenal events that occur either trans-temporally or uni-temporally, as compared to paramattha dhammas which, if viewed as events, must be viewed as events that are uni-phenomenal and uni-temporal. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39886 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread (184) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are discussing on functions of citta. Citta is not permanent. And it cannot stand alone but stands together with different cetasikas and these cetasikas give different names to citta. Because of co-arising cetasikas, there are 89 kinds of consciousness or 89 cittas. Functionwise there are only 14 kinds of citta. 1. patisandhi citta / linking-consciousness 2. bhavanga citta / life-continueing-consciousness 3. avajjana citta / adverting-consciousness 4. cakkhuvinnana citta/seeing-consciousness 5. sotavinnana citta / hearing-consciousness 6. ghanavinnana citta/ smelling-consciousness 7. jivhavinnana citta/ tasting-consciousness 8. kayavinnana citta / touching-consciousness 9. sampaticchana citta/receiving-consciousness 10.santirana citta / investigating-consciousness 11.votthapana citta / determining-consciousness 12.javana citta / impulsing-consciousness 13.tadarammana citta / retaining-consciousness 14.cuti citta /last-living-consciousness or dying-consciousness In the previous post, we have discussed on votthapana citta or determing consciousness. The 8th moment of life of object-rupa and sense-base-rupa has passed away. Now both rupas are approaching the 9th moment of their life. 1st was taken up by atita-bhavanga-citta or past life-continuum, 2nd was taken up by bhavanga-calana-citta or vibrating life-continuum, 3rd by bhavanguppaccheda-citta or arresting life-continuum, 4th by sense-door-adverting-consciousness or panca-dvara-avajjana citta, 5th by panca-vinnana citta or 5-sense-consciousness, 6th by sampaticchana or receiving-consciousness, 7th by santirana citta or investigating- consciousness, and 8th by votthapana citta or determining- consciousness. Votthapana citta or determining-consciousness passes away and next arise the 1st javana citta or the 1st impulsing-consciousness. Javana means 'swiftness' 'alacrity' 'quickness' 'fastness' 'rapidness' and this function of citta is the stage when a full perception of the object occurs. It is apperception of the whole object. As this kind of citta arises 7 times, it seems like very swiftly moving and sometimes some authors translate javana as 'running through'. But real function is apperception of the whole object. Atita-bhavanga-citta or past-lifecontinuum does not know the current object but knows its past object. So do the other two successive bhavanga cittas called bhavanga-calana-citta or vibrating lifecontinuum and bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting life-continuum. The first citta in vithi vara that know the current object_which now becomes in its 4th moment of life_ is panca-dvara-avajjana-citta or 5- sense-door-adverting-consciousness. But its knowledge is just that there is an object. It has to pass to the next citta by adverting. So it is called adverting-consciousness. Next citta is panca-vinnana-citta or 5-sense-consciousness. As the name implies, this citta knows the sense that is the current sense and no other senses. This citta is unique in this function. Avajjana citta or adverting-consciousness does not know the sense. It just knows that there is an object. Again panca-dvara-avajjana-citta does not know the sense-object in full essence. It just knows the sense of their type. Next citta is sampaticchana citta or receiving-consciousness. This citta does not advert, does not know sense but it receives very well which has been sensed by sense-consciousness and it passes it to the next citta. Next citta is santirana citta or investigating-consciousness. This citta does not advert, does not know senses, and it is not a just a receiver. But as soon as it arises, it investigates the object and it has to pass away. Next citta is votthapana citta or determining-consciousness. This citta does not advert, does not know senses, but as the object is already investigated, this citta determining-consciousness has to decide or determine on how to perceive the whole object in its fullest essence. In performing these functions, the stated cittas do not create any kamma or potentials for arising of resultant effects. Because the 1st vithi citta is panca-dvara-avajjana-citta and it is a kiriya citta or functional consciousness or inoperational consciousness. As it just does the job of just knowing that there is an object, this is not a sin and not committing anything. The following 3 cittas are all vipaka cittas or resultant consciousness. They are panca-vinnana-citta or 5-sense-consciousness, sampaticchana citta or receiving-consciousness, and santirana citta or investigating-consciousness. Looking into these 3 cittas, there cannot be found any sins or any wholesome actions or unwholesome actions. So these 3 are also not creating any kamma. The 5th vithi citta ( 1st avajjana, 2nd panca-vinnana, 3rd sampaticchana, 4th santirana ) is votthappana citta. This function of votthapana kicca or determining function is done by manodvara- avajjana citta of 89 cittas. This citta is a kiriya citta. It just determines how to perceive the whole object. But it does not perceive the whole object in its fullest essence. As it just does its job, it is just a kiriya citta and it is not creating anything kamma. 8th moment of the life of both object-rupa and sense-base-rupa passes away along with votthapana citta or determining consciousness. Now both rupas are in their 9th moment of life. And next arises 1st javana citta or impulsing-consciousness. This citta apperceives the whole object in its fullest essence. As soon as this citta arises, there arises kamma at the same time if the arising javana citta is not kiriya citta. Votthapana citta does not apperceives the object. 1st javana citta apperceives the whole object. As it is the first of all javana cittas, it is the weakest of all javana cittas. Votthapana does not perceive. 2nd javana citta does perceive but as the object is aleardy sensed or perceived by the 1st javana citta, 2nd javana citta is stronger than 1st javana citta. 3rd javana citta is more stronger than 2nd javana citta. 4th javana citta is much more stronger than the 3rd javana citta. This is asevana paccaya or repetitive condition. But 7th javana citta is not like 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th javana citta in the strength. Because javana function has to stop and 7th javana citta becomes weaker as if growing old. But this 7th javana citta is stronger than the 1st javana citta. Because 1st javana citta is not preceeded by any javana citta who otherwise would have apperceived the whole object. And 7th javana citta is preceeded by 6 of javana cittas who already apperceived the whole object in its fullest essence. 9th moment was taken up by 1st javana citta, 10th moment by 2nd javana citta, 11th moment by 3rd javana citta, 12th moment by 4th javana citta, 13th moment by 5th javana citta, 14th moment by 6th javana citta, and 15th moment of life of object-rupa and sense-base- rup is taken up by 7yh javana citta. This 7th javana citta just lasts a moment and it passess away again. 15th moment of life passes away and now both rupa of object and rupa of sense-base are approaching 16th moment of their rupa-life. Next arising citta is called tadarammana citta or retaining-consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39887 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread (185) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now the arisen object which is a rupa becomes 16 moment old. So does the sense-base rupa. In citta niyama, there are 7 javana cittas and these cittas cannot arise more than 7. Both rupas have left 2 moments of life. The object is already apperceived by 7 javana cittas or impulsing- consciousness to its fullest essence. So the remaining 2 moments cannot taken by such kind of citta. In these 2 positions vipaka cittas arise. These vipaka cittas or resultant consciousness are not sense- consciousness or panca-vinnana cittas. These 2 cittas just retain the object. For retention, they do not produce any kamma as they are vipaka cittas or resultant consciousness and they just retain and not impulse. They do not involvement in any commitment. These 2 cittas are called tadarammana citta or retaining- consciousness. They can also be called as retention-consciousness. This function of citta, retention can be performed by 8 mahavipaka cittas and 3 santirana cittas. These 11 cittas ( 8 + 3 = 11 ) are called tadarammana cittas or retaining-consciousness. There are 4 upekkha mahavipaka cittas and 4 somanassa mahavipaka citta. There are 2 upekkha santirana cittas and 1 somanassa santirana citta. If the preceeding javana cittas are upekkha cittas then upekkha tadarammana cittas follow them. If the preceeding javana cittas are somanassa cittas then somanassa tadarammana cittas follow them. But if the preceeding javana cittas are domanassa cittas that is if they are dosa mulsa cittas, then upekkha tadarammana cittas have to follow these domanassa javana cittas. In this visayapavatti or in this vithi vara, there do arise tadarammana cittas. Because the object is the clearest object ever. As tadarammana cittas can arise in this vithi vara, there is no problem for both upekkha patisandhi and somanassa patisandhi puggalas or beings. Because there are upekkha tadarammana that can follow domanassa javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Explanation of golssary: Visaya means 'object'. Pavatti means 'arising'. Visayapavatti means 'arising of object'. There are 4 kinds of arising of object at pancadvara and 2 kinds of arising of object at manodvara. Vithi means 'serial'. Vara means 'turn'. Vithi vara means 'serial turn'. This takes the exact order. This turn is for this citta, that turn is for that citta, and so on. PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39888 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:54am Subject: Dhamma Thread (186) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 16th moment and the 17th moment of object rupa and sense-base rupa are taken up by 1st tadarammana citta and 2nd tadarammana citta. At the disappearence of 2nd tadarammana citta both rupas have to pass away as they both are old enough to live further moments. As there is no current object (rupa), next arising citta is bhavanga citta. Bhavanga citta has to arise because there are kamma still left and these kamma cause vipaka cittas to arise and then bhavanga cittas or life-continueing consciousness have to arise indefinitely as long as there is no further object to attend. In the previous post, we discussed on vithi vara or 'serial turn' and visayapavatti or 'arising of object'. What we described in the previous post is 'arising of a very clear object' and it is called 'ati-mahanta-arammana'. This visayapavatti takes 17 moments and the object works early. So there are maximum of vithi cittas in this vithi vara. In ati-mahanta-arammana vithi vara, there are 14 vithi cittas. 1. 1 panca-dvara-avajjana-citta 2. 1 panca-vinnana-citta 3. 1 sampaticchana-citta 4. 1 santirana-citta 5. 1 votthapana-citta 6. 7 javana-cittas 7. 2 tadarammana-cittas ----------------------- 14 vithi cittas altogether and there are 7 kinds of vithi citta. Please see number ( that is 1 to 7 ). If visayapavatti or 'arising of object' is not atimahantarammana or the arising object is not very clear as in atimahantarammana, there cannot arise any tadarammana cittas. So at the end of javana cittas, bhavanga cittas have to follow. Vithi vara will be discussed later. When javana cittas are domanassa javana cittas, and when there is no tadarammana citta, there arises a problem for beings with somanassa patisandhi. Because their bhavanga cittas will always be somanassa bhavanga cittas. Foregoing javana cittas are domanassa javana cittas. Domanassa cannot condition somanassa. This is the rule. So the problem does arise here. To solve this problem, there has to arise 'aagantuka bhavanga citta' or 'visiting life-continuum'. Foregoing cittas are domanassa javana cittas. As there is no tadarammana citta and no upekkha tadarammana citta is available, next arising citta has to be bhavanga citta. But bhavanga cittas of beings who are reborn with somanassa patisandhi are all somanassa. Aagantuka bhavanga citta or visiting life-continuum arises once just after 7th domanassa javana citta and just before original somanassa bhavanga cittas of the being. This new bhavanga citta is upekkha bhavanga citta. Upekkha bhavanga citta can follow domanassa javana citta. As this upekkha bhavana citta is not of somanassa bhavanga citta of being with somanassa patisandhi, it is called 'visiting bhavanga citta' or 'aagantuka bhavanga citta'. This is in line with 'anantara paccaya'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39889 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:43am Subject: Re: The 37 factors as Fourth Noble Truth? Heresy or helpful? Hello, Phil - Thank you for welcoming me (at the bottom of your long message). Your thought about why the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma (as a group) does not inspire you as the 4 Noble Truths (one member of the group) does, is interesting. But isn't the Noble Eightfold Path a member (or subset) of the Four Noble Truths? And, curiously enough, why does this subset fail to inspire you? So it seems your inspiration does not depend on the scale factor (i.e. a subset is easier to inspire than the whole). Then, what does your inspiration depend on? For me my inspiration is strongest when I see a huge benefit within my capability, i.e. Sotapatti (stream entry) rather than Arahat. It follows that the 4 Noble Truths inspires me more than the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. And I don't have any problem embracing the Noble Eightfold Path. You asked, "Why does the Buddha define his teaching in these terms to the monks in this sutta, and why doesn't he do so in his exposition of The Four Noble Truths?" I guess it was because the Great Sage aimed high for his students (like all great teachers); he always encouraged his noble disciples not to be contented easily and stopped before reaching the final goal: the Arahat. Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > These days I'm thinking about something I was discussing with James. > Why is it that > my "mind doesn't leap up" when it comes to The Noble Eightfold Path? These > days I'm > wondering if the 37 factors (I forget the Pali) which includes the Noble > Eightfold Path doesn't > inspire me more directly as a Fourth Noble Truth. The 4 Right Efforts, for > example (included in > the 37 factors) make my mind leap up and lead to practice here and now in a > way that the Noble Eightfold Path > doesn't, for some reason. > > Anyways, that's what I'm thinking about today. > > A passage from SN XXII81: > > Then Ven. Ananda went with those monks to where the Blessed One was staying > in Parileyyaka, at the root of the Auspicious Sal Tree, and on arrival, > after bowing down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, the > Blessed One instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged them with a talk on > Dhamma. > Now, on that occasion this train of thought appeared in the awareness of one > of the monks: "Now I wonder -- knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does > one without delay put an end to the effluents?" > > The Blessed One, perceiving with his awareness the train of thought in the > monk's awareness, said to the monks, "I have analyzed & taught you the > Dhamma, monks. I have analyzed & taught you the four frames of reference, > the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the > five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, & the noble eightfold path. > And yet, even though I have analyzed & taught you the Dhamma, still there > appears this train of thought in the awareness of one of the monks: 'Now I > wonder -- knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay > put an end to the effluents?' > > (BTW, that final question is a nice one to leave hanging for you! :) ) > > I note that the Buddha defines his teaching in terms of these 37 factors > rather than the Eightfold Noble Path alone. > > I am feeling that while the Eightfold Path points at our destination, these > 37 factors point at a practice that can be developed (patiently, of course, > without > > hunger for results) in order > > to move towards that destination. > > I wonder if anyone else has ever wondered about this. Why does the Buddha > defines his teaching in these terms to the monks in this sutta, and why > > doesn't he do so in his exposition of The Four Noble Truths. If a person > were to take these 37 factors as his or her Fourth Noble Truth rather than > The Eightfold Noble Path alone, what would the dangers or benefits be? To > me, these 37 factors feel much more inspiring and "mind-leaps up"- ing than > the Eightfold Noble Path alone. > > BTW, it seems that Naomi has decided that it is time to tackle the > problem we've been > > having with our computer, so she is disabling all our programs. I don't know > the details, > but we'll be off e-mail while we do this, and... > > ...anyways, I will be away for a while, or so it seems. Or perhaps the > problem with be fixed tout de suite. > > In case it takes longer, wishing you all well, and welcome to our new member > Tep. > > Metta, > > Phil > 39890 From: Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah In a message dated 12/17/2004 12:43:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: 3.You say that 'as we refine perception (panna) through the bodhisattva discipline of meditation, our awareness of the nature of paramattha dhammas, as they arise and fall away, becomes enhanced.' I'd just like to stress that the Buddha did not encourage us to 'refine.....through the bodhisattva.......'. He taught us to develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear. 4. You refer to abiding inside and outside a state of insight with a different mode of consciousness and false views abating for a moment at stream entry. At stream entry, as you know well, false views are eradicated for good. So, yes, a sotapanna uses a 'conventional perspective of truth' but no wrong views associated with them. Hi Sarah I had problems with some of this. Starting with # 4... Are you saying that Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ? That's what it sounds like. Only the "grossest" types of false views are eradicated by the Stream Entrant: False-belief in Self, skeptical doubt, and attachment to rules and ritual. # 3. Your partial quote of Suravira's remarks kind of skewed them to mean something less than what was really being said. Nevertheless, I agree with your criticism that the Buddha did indeed not teach in those words. It is only Suravira's interpretation that leads him or her to use such words. However, you proceed and do the exact same thing that you criticise Suravira for doing. You claim that: -- "He taught us to develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." No he did not teach that. That is your interpretation. The Buddha never said (according to any record I know of) that -- "I want you to develop awareness and understanding of paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." If he had said that, I'd be agreeing with you 100%. Since he didn't say that, I'm not agreeing with you 100%. After the painstaking manner in which the dhamma was preserved and recorded by the Bhikkhus, and who ever else had a hand in preserving them...let's please not go putting words into the Buddha's mouth that he did not state. It is fine that you believe the intent of the Buddha was to teach us to: develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear. That's fine if that's what you believe. But it should be stated in that manner...i.e., that: -- "I believe" the intent of the Buddha was to....etc., etc. That way the truth is "preserved." Because when you say that the Buddha taught us to "develop awareness of paramattha dhammas" etc. That's, not a true statement. It may or may not be a fact, but its not a true statement. Since the Buddha didn't even use the term "paramattha dhamma" (to my knowledge), it is only your belief that was his intent or the way he wanted Dhamma understood. My feeing is that what the Buddha said, he said for a reason, and what he didn't say, he didn't say for a reason. The Buddha could have easily catagorized the Dhamma into paramattha dhammas if that was his intent. In my view, it was much harder to not catagorze the dhamma in that manner. And since he didn't didn't catagorize dhamma in that manner, it raises a "red flag" when people not only state that he meant to do it that way, but actually put the words into his mouth as "doing it that way." The Buddha did teach about elements, he did teach about aggregates, and to say he did would be fine. But he did not teach about paramattha dhammas. The latter is an interpretive view. Just as Suravira's remark about Bodhisattva meditation made you obviously uncomfortable because it was something you knew the Buddha didn't say...so too, when I hear people say that the Buddha taught paramattha dhammas I think a lot of knowledgable Buddhist investigators would feel equally uncomfortable and see it in exactly the same way as the Bodhisattva meditation remark. I'd be interested in your comments because I think both you and I and everyone in this group are interested in the truth and the most effective way to go about eliminating suffering. Different methods work better for different people and that's fine (even though I know mine is the best.) ;-) But it would lend credence to those who like the paramattha dhamma idea to understand, that teaching in that manner is at the stage of commentarial interpretation, and not the actual teaching of the Buddha. It would be wonderful if it would be treated as such. That doesn't make it less right or wrong, but it does "preserve the truth." (Nice Sutta on Preserving the truth in Majjhima Nikaya.) :-) TG 39891 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (186)Htoo. Dear Htoo, You explained it very clearly. it is in the Expositor, and I always found it difficult. In English also the word adventitious bhavanga is used. Nina. op 17-12-2004 17:54 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Aagantuka bhavanga citta or visiting life-continuum arises once just > after 7th domanassa javana citta and just before original somanassa > bhavanga cittas of the being. This new bhavanga citta is upekkha > bhavanga citta. Upekkha bhavanga citta can follow domanassa javana > citta. As this upekkha bhavana citta is not of somanassa bhavanga > citta of being with somanassa patisandhi, it is called 'visiting > bhavanga citta' or 'aagantuka bhavanga citta'. 39892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo, thank you. I have been reflecting when the Vis. study came to this. When a very great object (atimahanta) experienced during the viithi is unpleasant, there are akusala vipaakacittas before the javanas, such as seeing, etc. and the javanas are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. After that the vipaakacittas which are tadaaramma.nacittas arise, these are also vipaakacittas. But, since they are mostly produced by the same kamma that produced rebirth, they can, in the case of a human, not be akusala vipaakacittas. Is this right, and do you have a way to check? I also understand that mostly, but not always the tadaaramma.nacittas are produced by the same kamma that produced rebirth. Is this right? I have been reading about the subject in the Co. to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha. Nina. op 17-12-2004 17:29 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > In this visayapavatti or in this vithi vara, there do arise > tadarammana cittas. Because the object is the clearest object ever. > As tadarammana cittas can arise in this vithi vara, there is no > problem for both upekkha patisandhi and somanassa patisandhi puggalas > or beings. Because there are upekkha tadarammana that can follow > domanassa javana cittas. 39893 From: Suravira Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira -> khantikhema Dear Khanitkhema, I appologize for not responding sooner but other responsibilities have had my attention. > 2. Only one phenomena can occur at a time. [Suravira] We can be conscious of one dhamma at a given moment. > ... The only thing that goes from one life into the next in Buddhism in "kamma". this is different than individuality. [Suravira] Yes atta does not go from one life into the next, i.e., reincarnation is not the Dhamma. > > 4. If the consciousness you are speaking of a mind consciousness of voidness, then the voidness is, in and of itself, an object here. [Suravira] I am not speaking nama-vinanna of shunyatta, i.e, shunyatta as the object of nama-vinanna. Let me try to express it in this way: Because visual-consciousness is shunyatta, shapes and forms are seen. Because auditory-consciousness is shunyatta, sounds are heard. Because olfactory-consciousness is shunyatta, scents are smelled. Because gustatory-consciousness is shunyatta, flavors are tasted. Because tactile-consciousness is shunyatta, sensations are felt. Because nama-vinanna is shunyatta, myriad dhammas are perceived. > 5. Consider the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth. According to that > doctrine, continuity of consciousness occurs between the death of > one body (one bag of rupa) and the conception in another body > (another bag of rupa). In that no two bags of rupa can occupy the > same point in space at the same point in time, then how is rebirth > occuring? > > Could you please tell me where this doctrine appears within the suttas or the vinaya? [Suravira] That there is continuity of nama between rebirth is Dhamma. The question possed is to engage our critical intellect in order to explore the process of rebirth. What is it that is said to have continuity between lives, and how does it move through space/time? With metta, Suravira 39894 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 0:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (186)Htoo. Dear Mrs. Gorkom and Htoo, Although I have been impressed by the many concepts and complexities of the Abhidhamma, I can't help wondering about practical values of the knowledge about the various kinds of citta; e.g.the 7th domanassa javana citta, aagantuka bhavanga citta, and so on. How may we verify that these cittas really exist, not just only in the book? Further, can such detailed information about citta help a vipassana meditator to make better progress than other meditators who don't have the knowledge? Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > You explained it very clearly. it is in the Expositor, and I always found it > difficult. In English also the word adventitious bhavanga is used. > Nina. > op 17-12-2004 17:54 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Aagantuka bhavanga citta or visiting life-continuum arises once just > > after 7th domanassa javana citta and just before original somanassa > > bhavanga cittas of the being. This new bhavanga citta is upekkha > > bhavanga citta. Upekkha bhavanga citta can follow domanassa javana > > citta. As this upekkha bhavana citta is not of somanassa bhavanga > > citta of being with somanassa patisandhi, it is called 'visiting > > bhavanga citta' or 'aagantuka bhavanga citta'. 39895 From: Suravira Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 0:38pm Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Dear Sarah, I apologize for not responding sooner but other responsibilities had my attention. > clear on your meaning. You were referring in part to a book of Sujin's > translated by Nina, maybe 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'?? (Pls post any [Suravira] Yes, that is one of the articles. > 1. You mention that in some translations, 'absolute reality' is 'promoted > as 'the truth' '. Absolute reality (paramattha dhamma) refers to what > truly arises and falls at this very moment as we speak. The words are not > important, but seeing, hearing, like, dislike, feeling and so on are all > examples. > > 2. You say 'conventional reality' is 'addressed as if it were debased > relative to 'absolute reality' '. A cup, a person, a tree are conventional > realities. I have no idea about them being 'debased' but they are not > 'absolute realities' that can be directly experienced. > > 3.You say that 'as we refine perception (panna) through the bodhisattva > discipline of meditation, our awareness of the nature of paramattha > dhammas, as they arise and fall away, becomes enhanced.' I'd just like to > stress that the Buddha did not encourage us to 'refine.....through the > bodhisattva.......'. He taught us to develop understanding and awareness > of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear. [Suravira] If we look at the discipline of the practice of bodhisattva paramittas, for example the practice of kshanti (non- violence and forbearance; stoic endurance of hardship) cultivates mindfulness and insight into the powers karma and mental afflictions (e.g., greed, anger and ingnorance) relative to the circumstances of daily life as well as adversities that arise. Through the cultivation of kshanti mental afflictions are illuminated - we see their nature and those insights develops prajna (transcendent wisdom). > > 4. You refer to abiding inside and outside a state of insight with a > different mode of consciousness and false views abating for a moment at > stream entry. At stream entry, as you know well, false views are > eradicated for good. So, yes, a sotapanna uses a 'conventional perspective > of truth' but no wrong views associated with them. [Suravira] Stream entry is an incomplete enlightenment, it is not a terminus as ignorance is deeply rooted and persistent. As such all false views are not eradicated for good at that moment (however, the false views of individuality, doubt in the Dhamma and confidence in rituals are eradicated). For example, the false views related to anger is not eradicated until arhatship. A person becomes an aryan at stream entry, but not all aryans are arhats. It is imperative that the aryan continue to 'enter the stream' over and over again in order to develop the capacity of liberate themselves from the powers of unwholesome kamma and mental afflictions - even into the layer of latent tendencies. As the Buddha taught in the Dhammapada verse 398: 'Just as a tree, though cut down sprouts up again if its roots remain uncut and firm, even so, until the craving that lies dormant is rooted out, suffering springs up again and again.' > > 5.You continue to talk about the subject-object duality and I get rather > lost. [Suravira] Can you pin-point the location in the message where my presentation is not cogent? I will attempt to clarify the message. > I'd just like to stress that the realities, the paramattha dhammas > of life, are the same regardless of whether there is any understanding of > them or not. [Suravira] Yes, the nature of paramattha dhammas is not dependent upon valid cognition. > Seeing or hearing are seeing and hearing whether or not there > is ever any awareness of knowing about them or not. [Suravira] I imagine you are, by analogy, stating that the tree falls in the woods even when there is no one there to hear or see that tree fall? > > 6. You say 'the conventional and absolute are NOT separate'. Again, I'm > missing your point. [Suravira] This point I attempted to make is that the absolute and the conventional are not antithetical. > Hearing, sound and ideas of a sound are all quite > different and separate. The various ideas we have, the concepts about a > sound, cover up the true realities. > > 7. You say it is 'within the conventional perspective that we undertake > the refinement of perception so that we are capable of realizing the > nature of paramattha dhammas'. [Suravira] The conventional perspective is the context in which we begin the process of cultivating the bodhisattva paramitta, e.g., generosity, virtue, kshanti, the 4 brahmaviharas, meditation and prajna. > This makes it sound as if realities can be > known by thinking and by a self or 'we' doing something. [Suravira] I think I have misunderstood your point here as it appears to me that you are promoting nihilism - not the middle way. > Paramattha > dhammas can only ever be known or realized by directly understanding their > characteristics when they appear, now. [Suravira] The absolute is imponderable and incalculable by discriminating perception (sanna). > > 8.You go on to say that as unenlightened people, 'our perspective, > intention and understanding are not rooted in this truth -nirvana'. > However, when we're talking here about paramattha dhammas and the > development of understanding, we're not talking about nibbana/nirvana. [Suravira] Nibbana is one of the four paramattha dhammas (the other three being citta, cetaseka and rupa). Refer to Sujin's large book translated by Nina. > I > think you are introducing Mahayana ideas into what you read in A.Sujin's > books etc. Nibbana (the unconditioned reality) is eventually realized > according to the Buddha's teaching by understanding conditioned realities > for what they are. [Suravira] Conditioned dhamma are comprehensible and it is imperative that we understand that which is being negated - the nature of which is anatta, is shunyatta. Nibbana is imponderable to the discriminating perception. Only at stream entry is one provided a glimpse of the nature of nibbana. > This is why there are 4 Noble Truths. > [Suravira] I am sorry but I am unable to grasp the reason(s) implicit within this point. I am imagining that you are pointing to the truth of cessation, which is naturally present due to anatta and shunyatta. > 9. Again you say that 'our daily life forms upon the paramattha dhammas - > forms upon nirvana'. The Buddha doesn't say that seeing or hearing 'form > upon nirvana'. We cannot say this. Again, it's a Mahayana idea not found > in the Tipitaka as I understand it. To be honest, it doesn't make any > sense to me regardless of the source. [Suravira] Nama-vinanna experience the 'meaning' of the paramattha dhamma - this meaning is a concept, a thought (pannattis dhamma). > > 10. Finally, and the main point in what you wrote I think, you say that > you object to the word 'reality' instead of 'perspective' which doesn't > carry the same 'existential baggage'. > > It's true that no words are ideal. However, if we again use the examples > of seeing, hearing, sound, like, dislike and so on, 'perspective' would > suggest some idea or orientation. Seeing or hearing are 'real' and > directly knowable at this very moment. They can be tested out and proven > whereas a perspective will depend on our ideas only. [Suravira] It is sanna that supports perspective. As sanna is present with every citta, then perspective is always present in each conscious moment of consciousness. > We can just use > 'dhamma' as others have suggested, but make it clear that it has nothing > in this context to do with perspective or conventional/conceptual ideas. > [Suravira] This is so, only as long as it is understood that nibbana is imponderable to the discriminating perception. Thank you for your considered questions. It is always a pleasure to discuss the Dhamma with you. With metta, Suravira 39896 From: agriosinski Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:06pm Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: [...] > …. > S: Yes, no problem. When there is lobha (as root condition), it has the > power or force to bring about/condition various dhammas. No self or thing > or essence involved. Sarah, plaese expalain how can we have lobha without self being involved. By "thing or essence" you mean dhammas or something else? metta, Agrios 39897 From: guyjz Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 0:21pm Subject: Visuddhimagga online? Dear friends, Is there an online or downloadable version of the Vis. anywhere? (i.e. one that I can use a search function with) Metta, Guy 39898 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:47pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/cetanaa (g) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** When we are lying or slandering the degree of akusala is more coarse and at such moments akusala cetanå motivates akusala kamma patha (course of action) through speech. The akusala cetanå directs the other dhammas it accompanies so that they perform their own tasks and it ‘wills’ akusala. Moreover, it is able to produce the appropriate result of the bad deed later on, since the unwholesome volition or kamma is accumulated. Each citta which arises falls away but it conditions the succeeding citta. Since our life is an uninterrupted series of cittas which succeed one another, unwholesome and wholesome volitions or kammas are accumulated from moment to moment and can therefore produce results later on. There are ten kinds of akusala kamma patha, courses of action, which are performed through body, speech or mind (1). They are: killing, stealing, sexual misbehaviour, lying, slandering, rude speech, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong view. The akusala cetanå (or akusala kamma) which motivates such a deed is capable of producing akusala vipåka in the form of rebirth in an unhappy plane of existence or it can produce akusala vipåka which arises in the course of one’s life, vipåkacittas which experience unpleasant objects through the senses. *** 1) Abhidhamma in Daily Life Chapter 5 ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39899 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: The 37 factors as Fourth Noble Truth? Heresy or helpful? Hello Tep, and all > Thank you for welcoming me (at the bottom of your long message). Welcome again. > Your thought about why the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma (as a group) > does not inspire you as the 4 Noble Truths (one member of the group) > does, is interesting. Interesting and embarassing in this case! >But isn't the Noble Eightfold Path a member (or > subset) of the Four Noble Truths? And, curiously enough, why does this > subset fail to inspire you? So it seems your inspiration does not > depend on the scale factor (i.e. a subset is easier to inspire than the > whole). Then, what does your inspiration depend on? I think my problem is/was that I am too hungry for results. I've just received two Sutta anthologies (SN and MN) and as I predicted, they've thrown me into a bit of a sutta reading frenzy, which resulted in the basically pretty silly (though you were kind enough to respond to it) question. I am so keen on the 4 right efforts these days that it didn't even occur to me that they are Right Effort! Still, at least I have outgrown the kind of thinking that says that by knowing what Right Speech is, for example, we can decide to have it. There are so many conditions at work, and it takes so much time. > For me my inspiration is strongest when I see a huge benefit within my > capability, i.e. Sotapatti (stream entry) rather than Arahat. Yes. For me, it is to become an instructed worldling rather than an uninstructed one, in this lifetime. I am not confident about my capability to shed wrong view of self in this lifetime - which I believe is the first requirement for stream entry, but my way is to start with humble aspirations and practice in that way, and we will see what unfolds from there. > It follows that the 4 Noble Truths inspires me more than the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Oh yes, definitely. I'm always absorbed in the First Three Truths these days, but for some reason hadn't been grabbed by the Fourth Truth of the Path, hungering as I was in an impatient way for a more readily applicable way, and the bodhipakkhiya looked more directly applicable. > And I don't have any problem embracing the Noble Eightfold Path. Yes, you're right, of course. I was in a sutta devouring frenzy when I posted that question. You will see me doing that quite often, alas. Thank you in advance for your help! Thanks also to James for having me started to think more about what the Noble Eightfold Path means to me and for having encouraged me to place more importance on it. > You asked, "Why does the Buddha define his teaching in these terms > to the monks in this sutta, and why doesn't he do so in his exposition of > The Four Noble Truths?" I guess it was because the Great Sage aimed high for his students (like > all great teachers); he always encouraged his noble disciples not to be > contented easily and stopped before reaching the final goal: the > Arahat. Also, as you said, they were monks, not beginners like myself. I can still benefit from knowing about the bodhipakkhiya but first things first. Thanks again. Metta, Phil P.s Sarah, and all. The computer is fixed. I'm now back at the website rather than receiving e-mail. Nice to be able to get back into the useful posts. I want to read about the satipatthana sutta and how satipatthana is practiced here and now. 39900 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi TG, I'll get a quick word in while we are waiting for Sarah's reply. You wrote: -------------- > I had problems with some of this. Starting with # 4... Are you saying that Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ? That's what it sounds like. Only the "grossest" types of false views are eradicated by the Stream Entrant: False-belief in Self, skeptical doubt, and attachment to rules and ritual. > ----------------------- I don't think you are using "false views" (micchi-ditthi) in the way it is used in the Tipitaka. Which false views do you have in mind when you say they are not eradicated at Stream-entry? ----------------- TG: > # 3. Your partial quote of Suravira's remarks kind of skewed them to mean something less than what was really being said. Nevertheless, I agree with your criticism that the Buddha did indeed not teach in those words. It is only Suravira's interpretation that leads him or her to use such words. However, you proceed and do the exact same thing that you criticise Suravira for doing. You claim that: -- "He taught us to develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." No he did not teach that. That is your interpretation. The Buddha never said (according to any record I know of) that -- "I want you to develop awareness and understanding of paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." If he had said that, I'd be agreeing with you 100%. Since he didn't say that, I'm not agreeing with you 100%. After the painstaking manner in which the dhamma was preserved and recorded by the Bhikkhus, and who ever else had a hand in preserving them...let's please not go putting words into the Buddha's mouth that he did not state. > --------------------- Is it Sarah or the Ancient Commentators who are, in your opinion, putting words into the Buddha's mouth? I think you will find Sarah's views are in accordance with the Ancient Commentaries, and their views, in turn, are in accordance with the Tipitaka. Modern Buddhism has become a terrible mishmash of misinterpretations, many of them involving outright charlatanism. Anyone can set himself up as a guru or a meditation master and have loyal followers. He needs only to give an occasional sutta reference - real or imaginary - and begin his utterances with "the Buddha said." The teacher who gives the most pleasing interpretation gets the most followers. A tiny minority of Buddhists (notably K Sujin and her students) are leading a resurgence of the ancient commentaries. Those Ancient Commentaries add nothing new to the Dhamma, but they do put the kybosh on the self-styled gurus and charlatan 'meditation masters.' -------------------------------- TG: > It is fine that you believe the intent of the Buddha was to teach us to: develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear. That's fine if that's what you believe. But it should be stated in that manner...i.e., that: -- "I believe" the intent of the Buddha was to....etc., etc. That way the truth is "preserved." Because when you say that the Buddha taught us to "develop awareness of paramattha dhammas" etc. That's, not a true statement. It may or may not be a fact, but its not a true statement. Since the Buddha didn't even use the term "paramattha dhamma" (to my knowledge), it is only your belief that was his intent or the way he wanted Dhamma understood. > -------------------------------- It *is* a true statement! How many references and explanations do you want? The DSG archives are chock-a-block with them! ----------- TG: > My feeing is that what the Buddha said, he said for a reason, and what he didn't say, he didn't say for a reason. The Buddha could have easily catagorized the Dhamma into paramattha dhammas if that was his intent. > ------------ He constantly categorised the Dhamma into the five khandhas and the elements etc. Later, someone gave those dhammas the name "paramattha" to distinguish them from pannatti. They didn't need to do this, and, if you like, you can use the words, 'dhammas' 'khandhas' 'nama and rupa' 'dathus' and so on. ---------------------------- TG: > In my view, it was much harder to not catagorze the dhamma in that manner. And since he didn't didn't catagorize dhamma in that manner, it raises a "red flag" when people not only state that he meant to do it that way, but actually put the words into his mouth as "doing it that way." The Buddha did teach about elements, he did teach about aggregates, and to say he did would be fine. But he did not teach about paramattha dhammas. The latter is an interpretive view. > ---------------- There is no difference between paramattha dhammas and elements (or khandhas). If you are so adamant that there is a difference, you should state what that difference is. --------------------- TG: > Just as Suravira's remark about Bodhisattva meditation made you obviously uncomfortable because it was something you knew the Buddha didn't say...so too, when I hear people say that the Buddha taught paramattha dhammas I think a lot of knowledgable Buddhist investigators would feel equally uncomfortable and see it in exactly the same way as the Bodhisattva meditation remark. > --------------------- Are these "knowledgeable Buddhist investigators" superior to Buddhagosa and his predecessors? Why are they so keen to discredit them? Do they have a vested interest in maintaining the guru industry? (There is a lot of power, status and money involved.) ------------ TG: > I'd be interested in your comments because I think both you and I and everyone in this group are interested in the truth and the most effective way to go about eliminating suffering. Different methods work better for different people and that's fine (even though I know mine is the best.) ;-) ------------ Before you rush into one of these so-called 'different methods' (none of which are in the Tipitaka) why don't you see what the Tipitaka is saying? When there is confusion over the meaning of any section, why not be guided by the official Theravada commentaries? Why do you prefer the opinions of yourself and other modern-day authorities? ------------------------------------ TG: > But it would lend credence to those who like the paramattha dhamma idea to understand, that teaching in that manner is at the stage of commentarial interpretation, and not the actual teaching of the Buddha. It would be wonderful if it would be treated as such. That doesn't make it less right or wrong, but it does "preserve the truth." (Nice Sutta on Preserving the truth in Majjhima Nikaya.) :-) ----------------------------------- Who says it is not the actual teaching of the Buddha? I must be missing the point: surely you wouldn't be saying these things if it was just about terminology - the use of the word 'paramattha' to refer to nama and rupa. Please explain! Ken H 39901 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:49pm Subject: Re: $BA$(Betasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/cetanaa (g) Hello all > The akusala cetan$B!&(B(or akusala kamma) which motivates such a deed > is capable of producing akusala vip$BiL(Ba in the form of rebirth in > an unhappy plane of existence or it can produce akusala vip$BiL(Ba > which arises in the course of one$BCT(B life, vip$BiL(Bacittas which > experience unpleasant objects through the senses. Also, it leads to accumulation. So the unwholesome deed is more likely to arise again, not necessarily as a result of kamma, but because of latent accumulations, which is not the same thing as vipaka. Is that right? A question - does it depend on the gravity of the deed whether the vipakacitta arises in this lifetime or with the rebirth citta, or is that one of the imponderables? Thanks in advance for you help with these two questions. Metta Phil 39902 From: Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online? Hi Guy, No, there is no on-line version of Visuddhimagga but you can buy it here: http://www.pariyatti.com/frontpage.cgi Look for it under "Path of Purification" if you want the translation. Larry 39903 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:55pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi James (and Phil) --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Phil, > > Phil: just like the time you asked Jon if he was sure > he wasn't in the service of Mara! (I'm afraid I've never been able to > see him quite the same way since....) ;-)) > James: LOL! I don't think I asked if he was in the `service' of > Mara; that makes him sound like a devil worshipper or something! ;-) > I believe I asked him if he was being unduly influenced by Mara (or > something to that effect)- because of his rather dogmatic insistence > that the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta wasn't really about > mindfulness of breathing (it seems to be just too obvious to me to > be a difference of opinion). Hmmmm. Have I ever said that? Must've been under the influence of more than just Mara. But anyway, we are all influenced by > Mara so you really shouldn't see Jon any differently because of my > question. I am influenced by Mara, you are influenced by Mara, even > Kh. Sujin is influenced by Mara! We are all dancing with the > devil! ;-)) The Buddha taught that the only way for the > unenlightened to escape the influence of Mara, when Mara cannot read > the mind and cause havoc, is during jhana. There's another good > reason to cultivate Jhana! ;-) Hmmm again. Cultivating jhana is easier said than done. How about instead having the ideal of cultivating any form of kusala (i.e., dana, sila, samatha or vipassana)? Jon 39904 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and TG) - > If I may add a personal observation: I don't think that all namas > must take an object. Nibbana is an instance of a nama that does not... We've heard you claim to have experienced jhana, but I think this is the first time we've heard you claim to have personally experienced nibbana ;-)) (Sorry, couldn't resist that one.) Jon 39905 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:18pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Herman --- Egbert wrote: ... > This seems like an appropriate spot to make the following point, > which has been stewing for a few years (perhaps a bit overcooked by > now :-)) > > Seeing is the knowing of visible object, hearing the knowing of > sound etc. This is immediate, unmediated, non-reflexive. > > Knowing seeing, or knowing hearing etc is not-immediate, it is > mediated, it is reflexive, it is the knowing of a knowing, it is > consciousness of a consciousness. I'm not sure if by 'knowing seeing' here you mean (a) awareness of seeing, which I would regard as direct and immediate (or, in your terms, unmediated), or (b) thinking about (i.e. 'processing') the moments of seeing, which I understand to be non-direct 'analysis' of those moments. > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. When it is said that > cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another > level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. ... > From the ability of people to drive through a maze of fast-moving > objects, whilst being reflexively aware of only their next post to > dsg, it is clear that there is a level of knowing which operates > very effectively without needing to be known again by itself. But there are limits and, from recent reports, apparently enforcement of the 'off-side' rule in soccer requires an ability beyond that limit! > What are visible object and sound other than visible object and > sound? Are they something lesser than what they are before they are > known as having been seen or heard? > > This is not a metaphysical question. But there is room to doubt the > validity of any suggestion that sound becomes sound by virtue of > being heard (reflexively in a secondary consciousness) or likewise > that visible object becomes so by virtue of being seen. According to my understanding of the texts, the opposite is suggested, namely, that sound must have arisen already for it to become the object of hearing consciousness. > The need for liberation is the need to be liberated from the > clutching at reflexive knowing of what has already been and gone and > been duly known by itself. An interesting spin on the purpose and goal of the teachings. I'll have to think about that... Jon PS Apologies for not having replied to your earlier post. Will do so this weekend. 39906 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Jon: Hmmmm. Have I ever said that? Must've been under the influence of more than just Mara. James: I'm pretty sure you did. If I remember correctly, your argument was that breathing isn't an ultimate reality and therefore can't be directly experienced; therefore the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta isn't really about mindfulness of breathing. Sound familiar? However, if you have changed your mind and now believe that the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta is about mindfulness of breathing, then great! You must have defeated Mara! ;-)) Jon: Hmmm again. Cultivating jhana is easier said than done. How about instead having the ideal of cultivating any form of kusala (i.e., dana, sila, samatha or vipassana)? James: I wonder if anyone ever said to the Buddha, "Hey, what you're teaching is easier said than done!"? ;-) I stress the development of jhana because it is a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: jhana is Right Concentration. Additionally, practicing Jhana doesn't preclude practing dana, sila, samatha (do you mean mundane samatha, since jhana is samatha?) and vipassana also. It doesn't have to be either or. Metta, James 39907 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (186)Htoo. Hi, Tep A good question. I look forward to the discussion on this point. My own view is that there is much in the teachings that is needed for background information but that is not necessarily to be directly known and realised for oneself. But I look forward to responses from the Nina and Htoo (and others). Jon PS Welcome back to the list from me, too. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Dear Mrs. Gorkom and Htoo, > > Although I have been impressed by the many concepts and > complexities of the Abhidhamma, I can't help wondering about > practical values of the knowledge about the various kinds of citta; > e.g.the 7th domanassa javana citta, aagantuka bhavanga citta, and so > on. How may we verify that these cittas really exist, not just only in > the > book? Further, can such detailed information about citta help a > vipassana meditator to make better progress than other meditators > who don't have the knowledge? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep 39908 From: Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/17/04 10:02:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, Nina (and TG) - > > If I may add a personal observation: I don't think that all namas > >must take an object. Nibbana is an instance of a nama that does not... > > We've heard you claim to have experienced jhana, but I think this is the > first time we've heard you claim to have personally experienced nibbana > ;-)) --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, no, it's not that, Jon. I think it's just that I've been on DSG for so long, I've picked up the habit of talking authoritively of things I've only read about! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- > > (Sorry, couldn't resist that one.) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Happens to the best of us!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ====================== With directly experienced metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39909 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:23pm Subject: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Azita, Howard, Alan, > Azita: If the jhanas were part of 'my' accumulations, then I would > probably be 'doing' Jhana, or rather jhanacittas would be arising and > falling away now. THat doesn't appear to be the case, so I'm content > to develop the awareness and understanding of this very moment, > seeing, hearing, flavour, hardness, pain etc. ====================== Sukin: I am not sure what the influence would be had someone developed jhanas in previous lives to such proficiency that he could readily replicate any 'learnt' meditation object in his mind. Could there be conditions in this life whereby such an image would arise and cause him to experience moments of jhana? I don't know. However, don't you think that generally jhana is not a matter simply of concentrating on an object and being able to subsequently reproduce a similar object in the mind? Does not jhana involve panna of a very high level, though this is not the same as vipassana panna? Were jhana cittas to arise and fall as part of your experience wouldn't this imply the level of understanding which sees great danger in sense impressions, and therefore show in your general attitude towards experiences? And especially after you have tasted jhana cittas, would not most of your experience in this bhumi appear rather unrefined and unattractive? What I am trying to say is that I believe Jhana is sublime, second only to Lokuttara, and that it involves panna of a level second only to Vipassana. And just as Vipassana involves development starting from lower levels up to higher ones, so too jhana starts from lower level of development before any level of jhana can be reached. In this case, one starts with seeing the difference between akusala citta and kusala citta, the danger in the former and the benefit of the latter. The jhana practitioner has so much developed his discerning capacity, that more and more subtle levels of lobha are seen and suppressed. I believe that you and I are still much of the time incapable of detecting moderate levels of akusala and even some of the very crude ones. Also he (the jhana expert) is aware of the particular characteristic of dhammas such as vitakka, vicara, piti and so on, do you know anyone who is so discerning? However, even though so much panna is involved, I don't think there is any direct relationship between this kind of understanding and that which has been taught by the Buddha, namely the conditioned nature of realities including the tilakkhana. And so I don't agree with what Howard has said below (nothing new ;-)) and what Alan is saying in another thread. Also I don't think Bhikkhu Bodhi's question about the relevance of jhana, no matter whether or not it is in fact required for Arahata magga should be raised. More about this below. ------------------------------------- Howard: If you have worked on cultivation of jhanas, consistently and intensely, but have made no progress, then, indeed, they may not be "your thing" at this time. However, if you have not attempted to cultivate them, I would say that there is no reason to presume that you have no knack for them. In any case, the Buddha certainly recommended their cultivation as something very much worth doing, and, so, it might be worthwhile to not readily dismiss them simply due to their not being permanent states. They do serve to usefully cultivate the mind, making it a fit tool. Also, if you think about it, neither is path consciousness permanent! ;-)) So dismissal on the basis of impermanence is not such a great idea. -------------------------- Sukin: Based on my above conclusion, I don't see any reason why someone who has heard the Teachings should give any particular importance to the development of kusala for the purpose of attaining Jhana. This is not to say that Jhana is of no value. However, with the understanding that the Buddha's Path has an objective quite different and far superior to jhana, I think if we entertain the thought about "using" jhana to develop vipassana, then we are at those moments missing the point of the Dhamma. And if we insist upon it and developing this into a view about what constitutes patipatti, then I believe that this is wrong view. As I said above, both the development of vipassana and jhana revolves around panna coming to understand the present moment better and sati of the corresponding level also being developed more and more. In the case of jhana, because its development at a later stage depends on repeated taking of an object of meditation, what conventionally manifests as "concentration" needs to be developed, however this is not without help from other mental factors such as vitakka and vicara. So it is clear that the concentration of jhana, lead by panna with a different objective and having as its object a 'concept', can't be *used* for insight into paramattha dhammas. Even if one were to look at this in terms of suppression of the hindrances, still it would require the level of panna which will *detach* from the present reality (here jhana citta) and instead see into the conditioned nature, particularly "anatta" of these same cittas. And if indeed there is any understanding (even intellectual) of this kind, then obviously the starting and ending point of dhamma practice would be the development of panna. And the only sensible conclusion would be to develop it "Now" and not having any idea about another time, place or particular pre-condition. Panna leads to the development of Sati and these two can only arise with kusala cittas. Concentration on the other hand, arises with all cittas and there is no such thing as the development of 'concentration' as far as the Buddha's path is concerned. One important realization to be made is that dhammas are arising all the time (and this to me is the relevance of K. Sujin's "Is there seeing now?"), only instead of sati and panna, there is avijja. *But there is always a beginning level of understanding from which one starts and develops further*. There is no need to doubt this and think instead that one's mind must first be calm and concentrated. In fact if we look closely, we might see that such ideas about doing this or that first is the product of this very avijja!! So with regard to Bhikkhu Bodhi's question, I think if we understand the Teachings correctly, then it becomes irrelevant whether an Anagami would require to practice jhana or not so as to give rise to Arahata magga. The Anagami no more has any kind of reaction towards sense objects, so I presume that if he were not experiencing satipatthana all the time, then he would easily be going in and out of jhana. But whatever be the case, I think however that to conclude that jhana is needed here is to underestimate this level of panna and giving undue importance to jhana. Had other points to make, but all slipped out of mind ;-). Anyway, Alan, this Saturday it may already be too late, but I would like to encourage you to come to the foundation next week. No formalities are involved, people can just walk in and out as they want. The Saturday English group starts at 2 PM and if you like more info, call me at 01-8254012 or email me off-list. Metta, Sukin. 39910 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:58pm Subject: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Hello Howard, James, Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita - ....snip..... > the Buddha certainly recommended their cultivation as something very much > worth doing, and, so, it might be worthwhile to not readily dismiss them simply > due to their not being permanent states. They do serve to usefully cultivate the > mind, making it a fit tool. Also, if you think about it, neither is path > consciousness permanent! ;-)) So dismissal on the basis of impermanence is not > such a great idea. > > With metta, > Howard To Howard, the impermanent citta that experiences Nibbana far outweighs the impermanent jhanacitta IMO. but its not the point I particularly want to stress. I believe the life I live right here and now is perfect for developing insight: the 5 sense doors and the mind door, function appropriately - altho some would argue the opposite :-/ You and others are Kalayanamits with whom I can discuss dhamma. I read and listen to Dhamma as taught by wise people IMO, and I comtemplate what I've learnt. At the moment of kusala citta, which includes insight and jhana, there is tranquillity - passadhi- which has the characteristic of quietening down of disturbance in the metal body and consciousness. There is malleability - mudutaa - which has the characteristic of subsiding of rigidity in the mental body and consciousness. There is lightness - lahutaa. Why bother to attempt jhana when awareness and understanding of the characteristics of a presently arising dhamma are accompanied by calm, malleability, lightness. The Buddha's teachings are about detachment - complete detachment/cessation is Nibbana. Insight leads to understanding of the 3 characteristics of all conditioned phenomena; anatta, anicca, dukkha. When panna has developed to the stage of knowing these tilakkhana, not just theoretically, then attachment is slowly, slowly eradicated. I cannot be convinced at this point in time, to change my 'perfect' life and attempt something that I know little about, am not too interested in, won't eradicate defilements, even tho jhana suppresses them and is a very great type of kusala. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 39911 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > Well, no, it's not that, Jon. I think it's just that I've been on > DSG > for so long, I've picked up the habit of talking authoritively of things > I've only read about! ;-)) > --------------------------------------------- Well, talking (whether authoritatively or otherwise) about things one has only read about may or may not be a problem, depending on where one has been doing one's reading! ;-)) And an even greater problem in my view is talking about things that one mistakenly thinks have been directly and personally experienced ;-)). On the general subject of talking about things mentioned in the teachings, there is of course a difference between (a) talking about what the texts have to say on the matter and (b) talking about the matter based on one's (necessarily limited) personal experience, or expressing a personal view on the matter. Speaking for myself, I make a point of limiting my comments to the former as far as possible, although I am aware that my posts are routinely (mis)taken by some as being in the latter category. I say as far as possible because there is much in the suttas that is open to interpretation, and we do not have extensive commentary material in English for much of the sutta pitaka, so there is inevitably a degree of 'personal' interpretation involved at times. But in principle I'm happy to be talking only about the tripitaka and commentaries (and other ancient texts), as these hold the key to the further development of intellectual understanding and direct insight for anyone who has a sound basic understanding and sees the urgency of the task. [You may see this as one of those statements that involve a degree of personal interpretation, but I could find plenty of supporting textual authority for it if pressed ;-))] Jon 39912 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Alan Actually I was not saying about your mail, rather what Ven B Bodhi said in this article he wrote which I like to discuss with Sarah. To me what he write shows an impressive intellectual logical reasoning yet this type of reasoning have many flaws that are not consistent with the whole nikayas (dont even need to involve abhidhamma or commentary to argue that his article has serious flaws), just by showing nikayas I can counter discuss his article for the flaws. There are two basis of serious flaws in his article first the assertation that the jhanas experiene in the culmination of enlightment are not supramundane and the second taking jhanas as the de facto right concentration as said in the 8NP using DN 22 as a basis. Others are like not taking seriously when at some sutta there is support for one to be enlighted even after coming out of 1st jhanas as what you wrote below (his assertation that one can only become arahat only through the practise of four jhanas), he also forget that one can also become enlighted after the arupa jhanas also. Why should there be after fourth then can one be an Arahant, which is show in the nikayas not a de facto condition. > What I am saying here in my previous response, is to CHANGE TRACK > once, after having achieved Jhaana to Vipassana. Here one need not > have to achieve 2nd, 3rd or 4th Jhaana, but with either Access or > Entering Concentration or with 1st Jhaana. k: Yes there are sutta support that about coming out of 1st Jhana one can be totally be enlighted. > Ven. Mahasi taught the excellent way using "Access and or Entering > Concentration", with just enough power to be mindful of the arising > and dissolution of the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 objects of > craving. k: Sorry I do not need to sit down one corner to observe the six fold sense objects, every moment is a practise if one can see the three characteristics to all cittas, regardless kusala or akusala > When one's breath is very, very still and subtle, one's mind will > be very mindfully alert and sharp. This is the right moment to then mindfull of all the arising and or dissolution of the Dharma factors. k: How do one guage ones breath very subtle, I am not trying to be sarcastic but we have to be clear what do you mean by subtle. A baby sleeping peacefully can also have subtle breath. > > As one pursue on with Vipassana mindfullness, and master over it, > one will then eventually does achieve Jhaana while in the process of being mindful of those objects and subjects rapidly arising and > dissolution, bbeing aggreagates and being NamRupa etc. k: Can one master over cittas that are anatta? Even Buddha cannot master his own kamma of cuti-citta that will come eventually to all rebirth in the six realms, so how are we going to master it. In the D.O, Buddha always say "I arise" is not a valid question, "from ignorance arise" is a valid question. Ken O 39913 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 0:23am Subject: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > ...(snip) Hallo Azita Although I have not read the whole thread "Is there seeing now' and although I don't know much of me, a reaction. To me your message sounds very wise, in general and about the (old) discussion jhana - vipassana. But I have one question. You wrote: " At the moment of kusala citta, which includes insight and jhana, there is tranquillity - passadhi- which has the characteristic of quietening down of disturbance in the metal body and consciousness. There is malleability - mudutaa - which has the characteristic of subsiding of rigidity in the mental body and consciousness. There is lightness - lahutaa. Why bother to attempt jhana when awareness and understanding of the characteristics of a presently arising dhamma are accompanied by calm, malleability, lightness." Do you really think we have two bodies: a metal body and a mental body ? And what then is 'metal' ? Do be clear: I don't believe in two (or more) kinds of body and I don't think it's in the teachings, is it ? Metta Joop 39914 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi Jon, I'm all for good humour, and, though it may surprise, I'm not inclined to speak emphatically of late. I am not sure that this post of yours is entirely humourous, though. Your reply to Howard's reply seems to bear this out. In this instance, I am reminded of some words of Jesus, who at times was given to speaking rather emphatically. Matthew 23:13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." It should not surprise you, given your position in this forum, that some may take their lead from you. But if there is no particular place you can lead anyone to, I would ask that you make that very emphatically clear each time you quote "the law" to deny personal experience to an audience that may include the less-well- established. That you doubt the attainability of jhana or nibbana for yourself is no reason at all to radiate this outwardly. A point to consider: a sottapanna does not doubt the Dhamma, though they may well doubt the Tipitaka and its blessed commentaries (the law for the experientally challenged). (By way of explanation; There were sottapannas well-before the Tipitaka came into being. Sottapannas have no doubt regarding the Dhamma. Therefore......the Dhamma is not the Tipitaka) I am sorry if this is harsh. It would be good if you could tone it down whilst reading it :-) Kind Regards Herman PS Looking forward to your reply re absolutes --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina (and TG) - > > If I may add a personal observation: I don't think that all namas > > must take an object. Nibbana is an instance of a nama that does not... > > We've heard you claim to have experienced jhana, but I think this is the > first time we've heard you claim to have personally experienced nibbana > ;-)) > > (Sorry, couldn't resist that one.) > > Jon 39915 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:21am Subject: The Pure Way ... !!! Friends: The 3 Universal Characteristics: All Constructions are Transient ! When one fully Understands that; One Turns Away from what is Bad. That become the Way to Purity !!! All Constructions are Miserable ! When one fully Realizes that; One Turns Away from what is Ill... Thus is the Way to mental Purity !!! All Phenomena are Impersonal ! When one fully Comprehends that; One Turns Away from what is False... This is the Way to Purification !!! Dhammapada 277-79 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 39916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The 37 factors as Fourth Noble Truth? Heresy or helpful? Hello Phil, So you are on line, inspite of computer problems. I am glad. op 18-12-2004 01:29 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: quotes Tep: >> Your thought about why the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma (as a group) >> does not inspire you as the 4 Noble Truths (one member of the > group) >> does, is interesting. Nina: We should not think of names and classifications. Satipatthana, vipassana, the development of the eightfold Path, it all amounts to the development of right understanding at this moment. The factors of enlightenment, they all develop together so that enlightenment can be attained. We should not cling to the names. It seems that there are doubles in this long list, but these terms show different aspects. The five spiritual faculties of confidence, energy, sati, samadhi and pañña are indriyas, but become powers, balas, when they are more developed. As right understanding is developing, these factors are developing also, no need to do something about them. The Buddha showed so many aspects to remind us of the truth in different ways. For instance, he taught about khandhas, elements, aayatanas, just to show: these are dhammas to be understood directly. We read in the suttas about seeing, visible object, this is what he taught. Thus, dhammas as khandhas, etc. You were speaking of not being inclined to enthusiasm about the eightfold Path. It does not matter whether there is enthusiasm or not, it cannot always arise, we cannot make it arise. But I am sure you have found this out for yourself. Nina. 39917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online? Hi Larry, op 18-12-2004 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > No, there is no on-line version of Visuddhimagga but you can buy it > here: http://www.pariyatti.com/frontpage.cgi > Look for it under "Path of Purification" if you want the translation. N: I thought part of it is on line, on Rob K's web. But Larry, are you typing out all those chapters yourself??? I am always wondering where you get them from. I know you type out all those footnotes. Anumodana for all your work. Another question. Does anyone have the other transl. of the Vis., namely by Pe Maung Tin, The Path of Purity, P.T.S. Sometimes I would like to consult this, since the English is quite difficult at times. Nina. 39918 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (186)details. Dear Tep, Just call me Nina, we use first names. That is much easier. Thank you for your kind words, and also for your excellent question, that is very much to the point. op 17-12-2004 21:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Although I have been impressed by the many concepts and > complexities of the Abhidhamma, I can't help wondering about > practical values of the knowledge about the various kinds of citta; > e.g.the 7th domanassa javana citta, aagantuka bhavanga citta, and so > on. How may we verify that these cittas really exist, not just only in the > book? N: Yes, I am also thinking of the practical value when studying the Vis. and Tiika. I am always thinking: what lesson can I get here. Aagantuka is very detailed, and the question is, who can experience that. But such details give us a picture of the intricacy of all the different conditions for cittas. At first I skipped this subject and I did not mention it in my Vis. and Tiika study, because like you, I was wondeirng about the practical value. But now, thanks to Htoo's clear explanation and also your question about it, I considered more the value of knowing details. This point of aagantuka shows us that after domanassa, unpleasant feeling, there cannot be immediately pleasant feeling. It shows more clearly that each citta that falls away conditions the next one by way of contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya. It is so useful to understand even a little more about the different types of conditions. It all helps to understand anatta, even if it is only intellectual understanding. It helps as foundation. The condition of contiguity shows us that there is no break between cittas, that this life and the next lives are one long, uninterrupted stream of cittas. That is why good and bad tendencies and kamma can be accumulated from moment to moment, that is why kamma long ago can produce result today. The javanacitta that is rooted in aversion with unpleasant feeling: this is quite useful to know. We all have domanassa and it has different conditions. There are two types, one spontaneous and one induced. This is very actual. I quote from my Vis. studies: We read in the Expositor (II, p. 344): < The tenth, because it is induced Œby external aid¹, arises in one urged by others, one who remembers the offence of anothers, one who by himself keeps remembering others¹ offences and gets angry.> So, we only can find out the truth at the moment the citta with dosa arises. I quote a sutta: There are nine bases of dosa. We read in the Gradual Sayings Book of the Nines, Ch III, § 9, IV, 406): ³Monks, there are these nine bases of strife. What nine? (The thought): He has done me harm-stirs up strife; so also the thoughts: he is doing me harm; he will do me harm; he has done harm to a dear and loved one of mine; he is doing harm to such an one; he will do harm to him; he has done good to one who is not dear or loved by me; he is doing good to such an one; he will do good to him...² The Dhammasanga.ni gives the same nine bases, but adds the cases that dosa arises groundlessly, when there is too much or too little rain, when the sun is too hot or not hot enough, etc. We are inclined to believe that the causes of dosa are outside ourselves, with other people or the circumstances. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant objects and when we do not obtain them we have aversion. The circumstances or other people are not as we would like them to be.> T: Further, can such detailed information about citta help a vipassana meditator to make better progress than other meditators who don't have the knowledge? N: It depends on the individual's inclination how many details he wants to study. We cannot experience all realities that are taught directly, but, as I said, they help for an over all picture, can help to understand conditions, they illustrate the anattaness. But, when we study, we should never forget the goal. It is good you remind us of this. We cannot measure who makes more progress. Perhaps, it would be better not to think of progress. That kind of thinking distracts from our task right now. Also progress is dependent on conditions. I am enjoying your questions, and these help me to consider the reason for my study. Nina. 39919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: $BA$(Betasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/cetanaa (g) Hello Philip, op 18-12-2004 01:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> The akusala cetan$B!&(B(or akusala kamma) which motivates such a deed >> is capable of producing akusala vip$BiL(Ba in the form of rebirth in >> an unhappy plane of existence or it can produce akusala vip$BiL(Ba >> which arises in the course of one$BCT(B life, vip$BiL(Bacittas which >> experience unpleasant objects through the senses. > > Also, it leads to accumulation. So the unwholesome deed > is more likely to arise again, not necessarily as a result of kamma, > but because of latent accumulations, which is not the same > thing as vipaka. Is that right? N: When we commit akusala kamma, many akusala cittas are involved. The cetana is accumulated and is kamma-condition for result. The akusala cittas are accumulated as latent tendencies and are natural strong dependency for the arising again of akusala citta. We can verify this in our life. Bad habits are formed and are very tenacious. Ph: A question - does it depend on the gravity of the deed whether > the vipakacitta arises in this lifetime or with the rebirth citta, or > is that one of the imponderables? N: It is complex, because many akusala cittas are involved. If someone kills his parents it gives result in the next rebirth: rebirth in a hell plane. As to other kinds of kamma, see Nyanatiloka's Dict p. 72, 73. You see that there are many types. Such as supportive kamma, counteractive kamma, etc. As to priority of result: weighty, habitual, death-proximate, stored-up kamma. It is intricate. In a dream there may be akusala cittas, and these do not produce rebirth as result. But they are fortified by other akusala cittas and in that way there can be result. Quote from my Vis. studies: I also mentioned before that the result of kusala kamma can be less abundant because of akusala cittas (stinginess) arising after the deed of generosity. Thus, we have to consider many cittas when speaking of a good or bad deed. This to illustrate the intricacy of kamma. Nina. 39920 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi Ken, I hope there are plenty of big waves and no white pointers about. > > Is it Sarah or the Ancient Commentators who are, in your opinion, > putting words into the Buddha's mouth? I think you will find Sarah's > views are in accordance with the Ancient Commentaries, and their > views, in turn, are in accordance with the Tipitaka. > Are you aware that "the Ancient Commentaries" are in fact only "some Ancient Commentaries"? It may well be that the commentaries that John West rejects make John West the best, but then again .... Why take your lead from "some ancient commentaries" ? You have a problem with the words of the Buddha, mate? Believe me, your surfing body will die, regardless of how parramattha your dhammas are :-) Kind Regards Herman 39921 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:58am Subject: Obstetrics Hi all, A quick straw poll to be conducted in the privacy of your own samsara. Does one need to become an obstetrician before one can become pregnant? (Commentary; does knowing how babies are conceived bring about pregnancy? Are obstetricians a necessary condition for babies, or is it vice-versa.) Kind Regards Herman 39922 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ?etasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/cetanaa (g) Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/04 5:41:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > N: When we commit akusala kamma, many akusala cittas are involved. The > cetana is accumulated and is kamma-condition for result. The akusala cittas > are accumulated as latent tendencies and are natural strong dependency for > the arising again of akusala citta. We can verify this in our life. Bad > habits are formed and are very tenacious. > ======================= Would you please be so kind as to explain, in Abhidhamma terms, exactly what the kammic seeds, accumulations, or accumulated tendencies (anusaya) are? I presume they are specific sorts of cetasika that are modified in various ways and "passed along" (actually replaced) from mindstate to mindstate, as I cannot think of any other category of paramattha dhamma that is appropriate. It may well be that this has already been answered, perhaps even multiple times, in which case I apologize. There is so much information disseminated on the list that I lose track at times. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39923 From: AlanLam Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <....> > k: Can one master over cittas that are anatta? Even Buddha cannot > master his own kamma of cuti-citta that will come eventually to all > rebirth in the six realms, so how are we going to master it. In the > D.O, Buddha always say "I arise" is not a valid question, "from > ignorance arise" is a valid question. > > > Ken O > >Dear Ken, I am apologetic for wrongly reply to your "reply" However, I would like to respond to your last paragraph ass "Can one master Citta that are Anatta ?: Yes, Beacuse "The arising and extingushing of Citta" one has no control over it. It is thus Anatta !!!!! If a house or car belongs to one, one could sell or give away as one wishe, But the arising of "Thoughts" one has no control over it, thus it is Anatta. So does "Pain" that one has no control or command it to stop, it is non-self, no "Soul", "He". "She", "Ego: etc. Regards and Metta. I wish to add only on your last paragraph " > 39924 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: lost again :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: [...] > Agrios, there is a wealth of detail in the section of the Dispeller I > quoted from before. I can try to find more if you have any particular > qus/comments. > > Hope this helps. Excellent questions and I'm glad to look at the sutta. > thank you Sarah, it gives me some picture. It seems to me at this point that whole D.O. runs in namarupa and not in "the world" as it is analized by various comentaries. In this perspective, I perceive avija -> sankharas relation as a mental development of "ME" into namarupa. metta, Agrios 39925 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments and questions. Please see below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: Dear Htoo, thank you. I have been reflecting when the Vis. study came to this. When a very great object (atimahanta) experienced during the viithi is unpleasant, there are akusala vipaakacittas before the javanas, such as seeing, etc. and the javanas are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. After that the vipaakacittas which are tadaaramma.nacittas arise, these are also vipaakacittas. But, since they are mostly produced by the same kamma that produced rebirth, they can, in the case of a human, not be akusala vipaakacittas. Is this right, and do you have a way to check? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: [later addition after editing]-- 7th domanassa javana citta is akusala. I do not think akusala will be followed by kusala as contiguity condition. Dear Nina, you already included 'mostly'. Yes, when tadarammana cittas arise they are 'mostly' the same citta like patisandhi citta in terms of character of bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma. But not the same arammana with patisandhi citta. I here also include 'mostly'. Because this happen most of the time. But not always. Because there are 11 cittas that can perform as a tadarammana citta. Patisandhi citta in a life is just one of them. All these 11 cittas are kama cittas. This is also why tadarammana cittas only arise in kama sattas or sensuous beings and they never arise in rupa brahmas and arupa brahmas. Because rupa brahmas and arupa brahmas are reborn with rupavipaka cittas and arupavipaka cittas respectively. But in kama bhumi, in kama sattas or sensuous beings when there are conditions for arising of tadarammana cittas, most of the time these tadarammana cittas will be the same as their respective patisandhi citta. But not always. There are 11 cittas that can perform the job of tadarammana citta. Most of the time tadarammana citta will be the same citta like patisandhi citta. But as I said, arammana will not be the same. But very occasionally, other cittas of 11 tadarammana cittas can perform the job of tadarammana citta. If beings are born with upekkha patisandhi, there will not be any problems. But when beings are born with somanassa patisandhi, tadarammana cannot be somanassa after 7th domanassa javana citta. Here, upekkha tadarammana citta will arise which is not the same character of patisandhi citta. So far, it has not been complicated. But when there are no tadarammana cittas, then 7th domanassa javana citta has 'apparently' to be followed by somanassa bhavanga citta. But this is not in line with anantara paccaya. Domanassa cannot be followed by somanassa as contiguity condition. So the first re-arising bhavanga citta has to be as you said 'adventitious' bhavanga citta or visiting bhavanga citta. Aagantuka means 'visiting' not 'adventitious' but it still makes sense. When beings are born with upekkha patisandhi, their tadarammana cittas will be most of the time upekkha tadarammana cittas. But when 7th javana citta is somanassa, then somanassa tadarammana cittas have to arise. Again here it is also most of the time or 'mostly'. But not always. The reason why somanassa santirana is there is that to perform somanassa function. Somanassa santirana is not patisandhi citta. You already know that. But somanassa santirana can perform santirana function and it can also perform tadarammana function. In beings with upekkha patisandhi, this somanassa santirana or one of 4 somanassa mahavipaka cittas takes the position of tadarammana citta. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: I also understand that mostly, but not always the tadaaramma.nacittas are produced by the same kamma that produced rebirth. Is this right? I have been reading about the subject in the Co. to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mostly. But not always. Yes. I have already explained above. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To Christine: Dhamma Threads are primarily typed directly at DSG web site. Then I forward them to JourneyToNibbana, triplegem, and dhamma- list Yahoo Groups. So far up to 3pm or 15.00 GMT 18.12.04, there is no further Dhamma Threads by me ( Htoo Naing ). Christine you can check this at JourneyToNibbana and triplegem where all messages are moderated. I will deal with the problem later. Sarah, forgive me for this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > op 17-12-2004 17:29 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > In this visayapavatti or in this vithi vara, there do arise > > tadarammana cittas. Because the object is the clearest object ever. > > As tadarammana cittas can arise in this vithi vara, there is no > > problem for both upekkha patisandhi and somanassa patisandhi puggalas > > or beings. Because there are upekkha tadarammana that can follow > > domanassa javana cittas. 39926 From: guyjz Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online or for download? I found the first 90 pages or so on abhidhamma.org, the Bhikkhu Nanamoli translation. Why isn't there the rest of it? I have access to the book, but my point is to have computerized searching... It seems to me very likely that someone somewhere had typed it in (or scanned+OCRd) the book. So the question is does anyone know where I can get it? (I be happy with any translation I can get, but preferably Bhikkhu Nanamoli's) metta, Guy 39927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi, Herman Having difficulty figuring out just what your concern is. It seems you think I am preaching a gospel of despair, in that I "doubt the attainability of jhana or nibbana" for myself. Have I got it right? Let me ask you this: If a person who had studied the Dhamma for most of their adult life came to the conclusion that their own awareness was still weak and relatively undeveloped, would they necessarily be wrong? It may well be that that person has a different idea to you as to exactly what amounts to awareness or insight. Perhaps this would be a fruitful area for further discussion (you don't have to quote from the Tipitaka if you don't want to, but neither should there be any constraint on doing so for those who see value in it). Looking forward to your further comments. Jon --- Egbert wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > I'm all for good humour, and, though it may surprise, I'm not > inclined to speak emphatically of late. > > I am not sure that this post of yours is entirely humourous, though. > Your reply to Howard's reply seems to bear this out. > > In this instance, I am reminded of some words of Jesus, who at times > was given to speaking rather emphatically. > > Matthew 23:13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you > hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You > yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying > to." > > It should not surprise you, given your position in this forum, that > some may take their lead from you. But if there is no particular > place you can lead anyone to, I would ask that you make that very > emphatically clear each time you quote "the law" to deny personal > experience to an audience that may include the less-well- > established. That you doubt the attainability of jhana or nibbana > for yourself is no reason at all to radiate this outwardly. > > A point to consider: a sottapanna does not doubt the Dhamma, though > they may well doubt the Tipitaka and its blessed commentaries (the > law for the experientally challenged). > > (By way of explanation; There were sottapannas well-before the > Tipitaka came into being. Sottapannas have no doubt regarding the > Dhamma. Therefore......the Dhamma is not the Tipitaka) > > I am sorry if this is harsh. It would be good if you could tone it > down whilst reading it :-) > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman 39928 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread (187) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have discussed upto 13th function of citta. There are 14 functions of citta. 1. patisandhi kicca or linking function 2. bhavanga kicca or life-continuing function 3. avajjana kicca or adverting function 4. dasana kicca or seeing function 5. savana kicca or hearing function 6. ghayana kicca or smelling function 7. sayana kicca or tasting function 8. phusana kicca or touching function 9. sampaticchana kicca or receiving function 10.santirana kicca or investigating function 11.votthapana kicca or determining function 12.javana kicca or impulsing function 13.tadarammana kicca or retaining function 14.cuti kicca or last existing function or dying function The last function of citta is to perform as the last moment of a life as existing. Cuti means 'move'. Life moves to another. Cuti citta arises as the last existence. As soon as it passes away, there is no more citta arises in what we think of a being. As it is last citta and its disappearence apparently seems like death, it is called dying consciousness or cuti citta. Dhamma Thread starts with basic terminology and explanation on basic Pali words and explanation on basic dhammas. We started some classification of citta as initiation. Then each dhamma citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatti are each explained. Cittas are explained in their 89 existences. Cetasikas are explained in their 52 existence. Rupas are explained in their 28 existence. Nibbana is explained to have some general idea of what Nibbana is. Pannatti is also explained as a necessary dhamma. Then we moved to molecular level of dhamma. That is each citta and their associated cetasikas are discussed. Now we are discussing on classifications of citta again. 1st classification is on vedana classification, 2nd on hetu classification, 3rd on bhumi classification, and then 4th on jati classification. Before moving to next classification, 14 functions of citta are discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39929 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:15am Subject: Two or four stages of liberation ? Dear all, The article of Bhikkhu Bodhi that did arise the thread "Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..'" has as base the assumption that there are four sequential stages of liberation: Sotapanna, Sakadagamin, Anagamin, Arahat. These four are mentioned in many sutta's, but not in all ! PhD-research on four Nikayas (AN, DN, MS, SN) of B.J. Manné of Utrecht University made clear also a two-stage model or a three-stage model is used. Especially the Sakadagamin (Once-returner) is given mimimal attention in the sutta's. Also passages devoted to defining the psychology or the mental state of the Anagamin (Non-returner) are rare; and the difference with another word of this stage (Opapatika) is vague. "The stage anagamin contradicts the basic buddhistteaching that enlightenment is attainable in the present lifetime. This discrepancy shows that this stage was invented later, and most likely after the time of the Buddha." She concludes that "the stages sotapanna and arahat can be regarded as pertaining to early buddhism. In the beginning, therefore, there were just two stages: that of the converts and those who had attained the goal. During the development of Buddhism the issue of rebirth came to be increasingly important, and with it, probably developing in parallet, the issue of wether liberation was attained during the lifetime or after death. ." My intuition is that this conclusion of Manne sounds logical and soteriological well. Getting a sotapanna in this life is in this way of reasoning not very very very difficult. Thousands or millions (it's difficult to count) human beings living in this moment (nearly 2005 CE) on this planet are sotapanna. (I'm afraid I'm not yet: the samyojana (fetter) of doubt/skepticism is still existing in me) Any comments ? Metta Joop 39930 From: Larry Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 18-12-2004 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > No, there is no on-line version of Visuddhimagga but you can buy it > > here: http://www.pariyatti.com/frontpage.cgi > > Look for it under "Path of Purification" if you want the translation. > N: I thought part of it is on line, on Rob K's web. > But Larry, are you typing out all those chapters yourself??? > I am always wondering where you get them from. I know you type out all those > footnotes. > Anumodana for all your work. > Another question. Does anyone have the other transl. of the Vis., namely by > Pe Maung Tin, The Path of Purity, P.T.S. Sometimes I would like to consult > this, since the English is quite difficult at times. > Nina. Hi Nina, The Path of Purity is available from Pariyatti (above) and also directly from PTS. I just type a little at a time and its a good bhavana ;-) Larry 39931 From: Larry Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online or for download? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "guyjz" wrote: > > > I found the first 90 pages or so on abhidhamma.org, the Bhikkhu > Nanamoli translation. Why isn't there the rest of it? > I have access to the book, but my point is to have computerized > searching... > It seems to me very likely that someone somewhere had typed it in > (or scanned+OCRd) the book. > So the question is does anyone know where I can get it? (I be happy > with any translation I can get, but preferably Bhikkhu Nanamoli's) > metta, > Guy Hi Guy, Buddhist Publication Society gave Robert permission to post those first 90 pages and they gave DSG permission to post short pieces but otherwise they want to retain their copyright. I think there is an on- line Pali version that Nina is using. Larry 39932 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo, thank you, this is clear. But, if the object of the javanacittas is an unpleasant object, the tadaramana-cittas, in the case of a human being are still kusala vipakacittas, is this right? This in contrast to the former vipaakacittas in that same process, which were in this case akusala vipaakacittas, experiencing an unpleasant object. See, the problem is now the object that is experienced. I think that then santirana-citta that is akusala vipakacitta accompanied by upekkha does the job. op 18-12-2004 15:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: you already included 'mostly'. Yes, when tadarammana > cittas arise they are 'mostly' the same citta like patisandhi citta > in terms of character of bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma. > But not the same arammana with patisandhi citta. 39933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online or for download? Hi Guy, Robert Kirkpatrick first had the whole, but this was not permitted, author's right. So he had to take off part, as I understood. Maybe you can ask him. Nina. op 18-12-2004 15:23 schreef guyjz op guyjz@y...: > I found the first 90 pages or so on abhidhamma.org, the Bhikkhu > Nanamoli translation. Why isn't there the rest of it? 39934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online? Hi Larry, I am really amazed, and admiring you. It is such a large book. With great appreciation, also for the bhavana, NIna. op 18-12-2004 19:28 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I just type a little at a time and its a good bhavana ;-) 39935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ?etasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/latent tendencies. Hi Howard, don't apologize, I cannot get enough from talking on latent tendencies. Too glad to have an opportunity. op 18-12-2004 14:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: ======================= > Would you please be so kind as to explain, in Abhidhamma terms, > exactly what the kammic seeds, accumulations, or accumulated tendencies > (anusaya) > are? N: I quote: n the ³Abhidhammatthavibhåviní² the Commentary to the ³Abhidhammatthasaògaha², Ch 7, we read: ³There are seven latent tendencies: sense desire (kåma-råga), aversion (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for existence (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå).² We read in the Abhidhammatthasaògaha : ³The latent tendencies are just six.² Thus, the seven latent tendencies are actually six kinds of cetasikas. To conclude from the foregoing explanations of latent tendencies: the latent tendencies, anusayas, are subtle akusala dhammas which are powerful and which lie persistently in the succession of beings¹ cittas (anu can be translated as following closely and saya as sleeping). Anusaya is a reality which is powerful because it can only be eradicated by the noble Path (which is lokuttara). As we have seen, the latent tendencies are six kinds of cetasikas: attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå) and ignorance (moha) . What is the meaning of the fact that the latent tendencies pertain to feelings and objects? Conclusion: When there are still latent tendencies there are conditions for the arising of pariyutthåna defilements (medium defilements arising with the akusala citta) and these must be accompanied by feeling and other conascent dhammas. There must also be an object that is appropriate for that kind of pariyutthåna defilement, and when that defilement attaches weight to that object, it is strong. When it has fallen away, it conditions the accumulation of that kind of defilement to go on as latent tendency. > Latent tendencies condition the arising of akusala citta again and again by way of natural strong dependence condition. Kamma-condition is another type of condition. Kusala and akusala cetana are accumulated from citta to citta and can produce result later on. But, apart from kamma condition, also natural strong dependence-condition is necessary for a particular kamma to be able to produce result. By way of natural strong dependence-condition kusala conditions kusala, kusala conditions akusala (when you have aversion being tired of your good works), akusala conditions kusala (you are afraid for bad results and are then motivated to do kusala), kamma conditions vipaaka, vipaaka conditions kusala or akusala (painful feeling conditions aversion, or wisdom) etc. many factors are involved. Nina. 39936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga online or for download? Hi Guy and Larry, yes, Jim got the Pali for us and after that Connie helped me. It is only Pali. Also the Tiika. For my iMac the decoding is not easy. http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. Guy, you can search part now in the dsg archives. And I always like to encourage others to take part in our study with remarks and input. Next week we start with the feeling khandha. Nina. op 18-12-2004 19:43 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I think there is an on- > line Pali version that Nina is using. 39937 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ?etasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/latent tendencies. Hi, Nina - Thank you very much for all the excellent detail in the following. I will be saving this post of yours. I have just one question with regard to your summation, "As we have seen, the latent tendencies are six kinds of cetasikas: attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå) and ignorance (moha)" There does seem to be a case of redundancy among these "six". Are not mana, ditthi, and vicikicca all aspects of moha? (Or is the term 'moha' actually more restricted than 'avijja', with 'avijja meaning "ignorance" but 'moha' meaning only "confusion", which could be considered a particular species of "ignorance"?) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/18/04 2:31:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > don't apologize, I cannot get enough from talking on latent tendencies. Too > glad to have an opportunity. > op 18-12-2004 14:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ======================= > >Would you please be so kind as to explain, in Abhidhamma terms, > >exactly what the kammic seeds, accumulations, or accumulated tendencies > >(anusaya) > >are? > N: I quote: > n the ³Abhidhammatthavibhåviní² the Commentary to the > ³Abhidhammatthasaògaha², Ch 7, we read: > > ³There are seven latent tendencies: sense desire (kåma-råga), aversion > (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire > for existence (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå).² > > We read in the Abhidhammatthasaògaha : ³The latent tendencies are just six.² > Thus, the seven latent tendencies are actually six kinds of cetasikas. > To conclude from the foregoing explanations of latent tendencies: the latent > tendencies, anusayas, are subtle akusala dhammas which are powerful and > which lie persistently in the succession of beings¹ cittas (anu can be > translated as following closely and saya as sleeping). Anusaya is a reality > which is powerful because it can only be eradicated by the noble Path (which > is lokuttara). As we have seen, the latent tendencies are six kinds of > cetasikas: attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) conceit (måna), wrong view > (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå) and ignorance (moha) . > > What is the meaning of the fact that the latent tendencies pertain to > feelings and objects? > Conclusion: When there are still latent tendencies there are conditions for > the arising of pariyutthåna defilements (medium defilements arising with the > akusala citta) and these must be accompanied by feeling and other conascent > dhammas. There must also be an object that is appropriate for that kind of > pariyutthåna defilement, and when that defilement attaches weight to that > object, it is strong. When it has fallen away, it conditions the > accumulation of that kind of defilement to go on as latent tendency. > > > Latent tendencies condition the arising of akusala citta again and again by > way of natural strong dependence condition. > Kamma-condition is another type of condition. Kusala and akusala cetana are > accumulated from citta to citta and can produce result later on. But, apart > from kamma condition, also natural strong dependence-condition is necessary > for a particular kamma to be able to produce result. By way of natural > strong dependence-condition kusala conditions kusala, kusala conditions > akusala (when you have aversion being tired of your good works), akusala > conditions kusala (you are afraid for bad results and are then motivated to > do kusala), kamma conditions vipaaka, vipaaka conditions kusala or akusala > (painful feeling conditions aversion, or wisdom) etc. many factors are > involved. > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39938 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (186)details. Dear Nina, Thank you very much for allowing me to be on the 'first-name basis' with you. And, most important, thank you for answering my questions fully and sincerely without any trace of being offended. This ability to be open-minded and unattached to the Abhidhamma clearly shows that you practice Anatta the same way that you are preaching it. From your kind and clear answer about the practical value of the study of cittas, I can deduce the following : -- It gives a map of the various states of citta. -- It gives the conditions that support the arising and falling away of citta. -- It assists us in trying to understand the various kinds of paccaya. -- It helps us understand Anatta ("even if it is only intellectual"). -- It illustrates the condition of contiguity; the stream of cittas that continues uninterruptedly. -- It explains "why good and bad tendencies and kamma can be accumulated from moment to moment". -- It is useful to know those kinds of citta that are rooted in aversion and other akusala dhamma, so that we learn to avoid them. It is really interesting to know that dosa can arise groundlessly -- maybe like that in a mind of a terrorist? About some advantages which the citta study may bring to vipassana meditators, I agree with you that some of the items in my list above are helpful for the yogi to understand the conditions that enhance his/her meditation (if applied correctly without letting the thought about progress interfere with the meditation). I appreciate your humbleness, Nina. Today I have learned that humbleness is a measure of successfulness in one's Anatta practice. Warm regards, Tep May your persistence be aroused & not lax; your mindfulness established & not confused; your body calm & not aroused; your mind centered & unified. ---[AN III.40] ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Just call me Nina, we use first names. That is much easier. Thank you for > your kind words, and also for your excellent question, that is very much to > the point. > op 17-12-2004 21:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > Although I have been impressed by the many concepts and > > complexities of the Abhidhamma, I can't help wondering about > > practical values of the knowledge about the various kinds of citta; > > e.g.the 7th domanassa javana citta, aagantuka bhavanga citta, and so > > on. How may we verify that these cittas really exist, not just only in the > > book? > N: Yes, I am also thinking of the practical value when studying the Vis. and > Tiika. I am always thinking: what lesson can I get here. > Aagantuka is very detailed, and the question is, who can experience that. > But such details give us a picture of the intricacy of all the different > conditions for cittas. At first I skipped this subject and I did not mention > it in my Vis. and Tiika study, because like you, I was wondeirng about the > practical value. But now, thanks to Htoo's clear explanation and also your > question about it, I considered more the value of knowing details. > This point of aagantuka shows us that after domanassa, unpleasant feeling, > there cannot be immediately pleasant feeling. It shows more clearly that > each citta that falls away conditions the next one by way of > contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya. It is so useful to understand even a > little more about the different types of conditions. It all helps to > understand anatta, even if it is only intellectual understanding. It helps > as foundation. The condition of contiguity shows us that there is no break > between cittas, that this life and the next lives are one long, > uninterrupted stream of cittas. That is why good and bad tendencies and > kamma can be accumulated from moment to moment, that is why kamma long ago > can produce result today. > The javanacitta that is rooted in aversion with unpleasant feeling: this is > quite useful to know. We all have domanassa and it has different conditions. > There are two types, one spontaneous and one induced. This is very actual. > I quote from my Vis. studies: > We read in the Expositor (II, p. 344): < The tenth, because it is induced > Œby external aid¹, arises in one urged by others, one who remembers the > offence of anothers, one who by himself keeps remembering others¹ offences > and gets angry.> > So, we only can find out the truth at the moment the citta with dosa arises. > I quote a sutta: > > There are nine bases of dosa. We read in the Gradual Sayings Book of the > Nines, Ch III, § 9, IV, 406): > ³Monks, there are these nine bases of strife. What nine? > (The thought): He has done me harm-stirs up strife; so also the thoughts: he > is doing me harm; he will do me harm; he has done harm to a dear and loved > one of mine; he is doing harm to such an one; he will do harm to him; he has > done good to one who is not dear or loved by me; he is doing good to such an > one; he will do good to him...² > The Dhammasanga.ni gives the same nine bases, but adds the cases that dosa > arises groundlessly, when there is too much or too little rain, when the sun > is too hot or not hot enough, etc. We are inclined to believe that the > causes of dosa are outside ourselves, with other people or the > circumstances. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant > objects and when we do not obtain them we have aversion. The circumstances > or other people are not as we would like them to be.> > > T: Further, can such detailed information about citta help a vipassana > meditator to make better progress than other meditators who don't have the > knowledge? > > N: It depends on the individual's inclination how many details he wants to > study. We cannot experience all realities that are taught directly, but, as > I said, they help for an over all picture, can help to understand > conditions, they illustrate the anattaness. But, when we study, we should > never forget the goal. It is good you remind us of this. > We cannot measure who makes more progress. Perhaps, it would be better not > to think of progress. That kind of thinking distracts from our task right > now. Also progress is dependent on conditions. > I am enjoying your questions, and these help me to consider the reason for > my study. > Nina. 39939 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:17pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Jon, Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. > > I'm not sure if by 'knowing seeing' here you mean (a) awareness of seeing, > which I would regard as direct and immediate (or, in your terms, > unmediated), or (b) thinking about (i.e. 'processing') the moments of > seeing, which I understand to be non-direct 'analysis' of those moments. At a very basic level, there is no differentiation between sound or hearing. The words are interchangeable and simply denote the same experience. Of course, at a more fundamental level, there is no differentiation between any of the senses. But in the quest to capture the uncapturable there is the mapping of structure onto experience, which leads to the possibility of mistaking the structure for the experience. For here we are, talking about experience as though it happens in terms of subject - object. Awareness is already reflexive. Awareness of hearing is preceded by hearing - no subject, no object. Sound is consciousness. This sound is not heard. It is not known by anything else except it self (sorry about the words, it is very difficult to explain non-duality in terms of duality) Awareness of sound is consciousness of consciousness. It is subject - object. Consciousness as a building block in a re-iterative process has no upper limit. The lego-structure of consciousness of consciousness of consciousness to the nth degree may be reflected in the thought "The heavens and all its hosts rejoice as I am hearing this high-pitched whistle". But apart from this thought there is only ............... Likewise, the distinction between nama and rupa is thinking only. What is there when there is no thinking? I suggest a word for it may be nibbana. No hearing of sound, no seeing of sights and so forth. > > > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. When it is said that > > cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another > > level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. > ... > > From the ability of people to drive through a maze of fast- moving > > objects, whilst being reflexively aware of only their next post to > > dsg, it is clear that there is a level of knowing which operates > > very effectively without needing to be known again by itself. > > But there are limits and, from recent reports, apparently enforcement of > the 'off-side' rule in soccer requires an ability beyond that limit! This sounds very interesting. Could you elaborate some more? > > > What are visible object and sound other than visible object and > > sound? Are they something lesser than what they are before they are > > known as having been seen or heard? > > > > This is not a metaphysical question. But there is room to doubt the > > validity of any suggestion that sound becomes sound by virtue of > > being heard (reflexively in a secondary consciousness) or likewise > > that visible object becomes so by virtue of being seen. > > According to my understanding of the texts, the opposite is suggested, namely, that sound must have arisen already for it to become the object of hearing consciousness. Yes, I agree, with you, and with the texts if that's what they say :- ) The sound does not need to heard. It is just sound. Having been sound, it does not need to know again it was sound. The unnecessary iterative processes that follow sound ARE samsara. Samsara is learnt. It can be unlearnt. Guarding the senses comes to mind. Samsara is not nibbana, but it happens in the midst of it. > > > The need for liberation is the need to be liberated from the > > clutching at reflexive knowing of what has already been and gone and > > been duly known by itself. > > An interesting spin on the purpose and goal of the teachings. I'll have > to think about that... > Cheers, Herman 39940 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Nina, How interesting the Dhamma is when we investigate them in detail! If object is anittharammana normally cittas will be akusala vipaka cittas. But vedanawise ( when in javana ), vedana of javana cittas may be somanassa, domanassa, or upekkha vedana. Everyone knows rotten flesh is not a good one. Let us investigate three beings. 1. vulture, 2. ordinary man, 3. arahat Pancadvaravajjana citta is kiriya citta. But when cakkhuvinnana citta arises, it is ahetuka akusala vipaka cakkhuvinnana citta for all 3 beings ( vulture, ordinary man, and arahat ). Sampaticchana citta and santirana citta will both be ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas. Manodvaravajjana citta who does the job of votthapana citta is a kiriya citta. This is abyakata dhamma. According to 'anantara paccaya', abyakata dhamma can be followed by akusala dhamma or kusala dhamma or abyakata dhamma. In case of the vulture, lobha mula cittas will follow this abyakata citta. And vedanawise they may be somanassa vedana. As lobha citta is akusala dhamma, all javana will be akusala dhamma. Again tadarammana citta will be upekkha santirana of akusala vipaka citta. Somanassa can be followed by upekkha. Bhavanga cittas will all be akusala vipaka no doubt because he is an animal. In case of the man, dosa mula citta may arise as javana citta. Votthapana citta is kiriya and upekkha. Domanassa javana cittas are all akusala dhamma. So tadarammana cittas will be upekkha and not somanassa. If there is no tadarammana 'adventitious bhavanga citta has to arise to fill up 'anantara paccaya'. In case of the arahat, votthapana citta is kiriya. All javana cittas will also be kiriya cittas. But they will not be somanassa mahakiriya cittas but upekkha mahakiriya cittas. Then tadarammana cittas will be upekkha. When there is no tadarammana cittas, then adventitious bhavanga citta has to arise to link with somanassa bhavanga if the patisandhi of arahat is somanassa patisandhi. We need to be careful that vipaka cittas are abyakata dhammas. They are not akusala dhammas or kusala dhammas even though they are results of akusala dhammas or kusala dhammas. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: Please see below for in line text reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: Dear Htoo, thank you, this is clear. But, if the object of the javanacittas is an unpleasant object, the tadaramana-cittas, in the case of a human being are still kusala vipakacittas, is this right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rotten flesh is an unpleasant object. Tadarammana cittas will follow 7th domanassa javana citta. They are not somanassa. So they may be one of 4 upekkha mahavipaka cittas, or one of 2 upekkha santirana cittas. But I do not know and I do not think as you said. What is sure is that the man will have kusala vipaka bhavanga cittas. I think tadarammana may be any of 11 cittas but have to comply with preceeding dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: This in contrast to the former vipaakacittas in that same process, which were in this case akusala vipaakacittas, experiencing an unpleasant object. See, the problem is now the object that is experienced. I think that then santirana-citta that is akusala vipakacitta accompanied by upekkha does the job. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I used a simile of 2 gate-keepers. One is pancadvaravajjana citta and another gate-keeper is manodvaravajjana citta doing votthapana citta's job. Both are not kusala or akusala. But both are abyakata dhamma. When object is anittharammana or unsighty view here cakkhuvinnana citta, sampaticchana, and santirana cittas will all be akusala vipaka citta. Before is abyakata dhamma that is pancadvaravajjana citta. After is also abyakata dhamma that is manodvaravajjana citta doing votthapana citta's job. Javana cittas may differ according to individual's accumulation. There are some who read Dhamma Threads with domanassa javana cittas. Some will read with upekkha javana cittas. Some will read with somanassa javana cittas. This difference is because of their accumulation. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >op 18-12-2004 15:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > you already included 'mostly'. Yes, when tadarammana > > cittas arise they are 'mostly' the same citta like patisandhi citta > > in terms of character of bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma. > > But not the same arammana with patisandhi citta. 39941 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Is there seeing now? kusala and akusala./Sukin Hello Sukin, hope things are going well for you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Howard, Alan, > > Sukin: > I am not sure what the influence would be had someone developed > jhanas in previous lives to such proficiency that he could readily > replicate any 'learnt' meditation object in his mind. Could there be > conditions in this life whereby such an image would arise and cause him > to experience moments of jhana? I don't know. > However, don't you think that generally jhana is not a matter simply of > concentrating on an object and being able to subsequently reproduce a > similar object in the mind? Does not jhana involve panna of a very high > level, though this is not the same as vipassana panna? Were jhana > cittas to arise and fall as part of your experience wouldn't this imply the > level of understanding which sees great danger in sense impressions, > and therefore show in your general attitude towards experiences? And > especially after you have tasted jhana cittas, would not most of your > experience in this bhumi appear rather unrefined and unattractive? Azita: some great points here Sukin. I understand what you're stating here and its the last sentence that hits home the most. Bec. jhana cittas do seem to be very 'attractive', sublime, refined, peaceful; could there possible be an attachment to them? That contradicts what you have stated a little later about "seeing the difference bet. akusala citta and kusala citta, the danger in the former, the benefit in the latter", and further, you state "more and more subtle levels of lobha are seen and suppressed". Maybe conditions are such that as jhana cittas are developed to higher and higher degrees, there are more conditions to remain in jhana for longer and longer periods, thereby keeping defilements suppressed. What I am trying to say is that I believe Jhana is sublime, second only to > Lokuttara, and that it involves panna of a level second only to > Vipassana. And just as Vipassana involves development starting from > lower levels up to higher ones, so too jhana starts from lower level of > development before any level of jhana can be reached. In this case, one > starts with seeing the difference between akusala citta and kusala citta, > the danger in the former and the benefit of the latter. > The jhana practitioner has so much developed his discerning capacity, > that more and more subtle levels of lobha are seen and suppressed. I > believe that you and I are still much of the time incapable of detecting > moderate levels of akusala and even some of the very crude ones. Also > he (the jhana expert) is aware of the particular characteristic of > dhammas such as vitakka, vicara, piti and so on, do you know anyone > who is so discerning? Azita: certainly not my next door neighbours :-) Again, good points. I wonder if anyone who is so discerning, would be out and about doing everyday things? Esp not doing Xmas shopping :-/ altho I don't xmas shop but i'm not a discerning jhana practioner!!!!! To be honest, I know little about jhana. I realize that the panna involve3d in jhana is very highly developed; but its not the panna that knows dhammas as they really are and it cannot eradicate defilements. As you say: ....snip..... > So it is clear that the concentration of jhana, lead by panna with a > different objective and having as its object a 'concept', can't be *used* > for insight into paramattha dhammas. Even if one were to look at this in > terms of suppression of the hindrances, still it would require the level of > panna which will *detach* from the present reality (here jhana citta) > and instead see into the conditioned nature, particularly "anatta" of > these same cittas. And if indeed there is any understanding (even > intellectual) of this kind, then obviously the starting and ending point of > dhamma practice would be the development of panna. And the only > sensible conclusion would be to develop it "Now" and not having any > idea about another time, place or particular pre-condition. Panna leads > to the development of Sati and these two can only arise with kusala > cittas. > Metta, > Sukin. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 39942 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:38pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (186)details. Dear Jon, Tep, Nina and All, As Nina has answered the best there is no further point to add from me. But I may answer if the same questions arise in other threads at later time. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for allowing me to be on the 'first-name basis' > with you. And, most important, thank you for answering my questions > fully and sincerely without any trace of being offended. This ability to be > open-minded and unattached to the Abhidhamma clearly shows that > you practice Anatta the same way that you are preaching it. > > From your kind and clear answer about the practical value of the study > of cittas, I can deduce the following : > > -- It gives a map of the various states of citta. > -- It gives the conditions that support the arising and falling away of citta. > -- It assists us in trying to understand the various kinds of paccaya. > -- It helps us understand Anatta ("even if it is only intellectual"). > -- It illustrates the condition of contiguity; the stream of cittas that > continues uninterruptedly. > -- It explains "why good and bad tendencies and kamma can be > accumulated from moment to moment". > -- It is useful to know those kinds of citta that are rooted in aversion and > other akusala dhamma, so that we learn to avoid them. > > It is really interesting to know that dosa can arise groundlessly - - > maybe like that in a mind of a terrorist? > > About some advantages which the citta study may bring to vipassana > meditators, I agree with you that some of the items in my list above are > helpful for the yogi to understand the conditions that enhance his/her > meditation (if applied correctly without letting the thought about > progress interfere with the meditation). > > I appreciate your humbleness, Nina. Today I have learned that > humbleness is a measure of successfulness in one's Anatta practice. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > May your persistence be aroused & not lax; your mindfulness > established & not confused; your body calm & not aroused; your mind > centered & unified. ---[AN III.40] > ======== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Just call me Nina, we use first names. That is much easier. Thank you > for > > your kind words, and also for your excellent question, that is very > much to > > the point. > > op 17-12-2004 21:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Although I have been impressed by the many concepts and > > > complexities of the Abhidhamma, I can't help wondering about > > > practical values of the knowledge about the various kinds of citta; > > > e.g.the 7th domanassa javana citta, aagantuka bhavanga citta, and > so > > > on. How may we verify that these cittas really exist, not just only in > the > > > book? > > N: Yes, I am also thinking of the practical value when studying the Vis. > and > > Tiika. I am always thinking: what lesson can I get here. > > Aagantuka is very detailed, and the question is, who can experience > that. > > But such details give us a picture of the intricacy of all the different > > conditions for cittas. At first I skipped this subject and I did not mention > > it in my Vis. and Tiika study, because like you, I was wondeirng about > the > > practical value. But now, thanks to Htoo's clear explanation and also > your > > question about it, I considered more the value of knowing details. > > This point of aagantuka shows us that after domanassa, unpleasant > feeling, > > there cannot be immediately pleasant feeling. It shows more clearly > that > > each citta that falls away conditions the next one by way of > > contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya. It is so useful to understand > even a > > little more about the different types of conditions. It all helps to > > understand anatta, even if it is only intellectual understanding. It helps > > as foundation. The condition of contiguity shows us that there is no > break > > between cittas, that this life and the next lives are one long, > > uninterrupted stream of cittas. That is why good and bad tendencies > and > > kamma can be accumulated from moment to moment, that is why > kamma long ago > > can produce result today. > > The javanacitta that is rooted in aversion with unpleasant feeling: this > is > > quite useful to know. We all have domanassa and it has different > conditions. > > There are two types, one spontaneous and one induced. This is very > actual. > > I quote from my Vis. studies: > > We read in the Expositor (II, p. 344): < The tenth, because it is induced > > Œby external aid¹, arises in one urged by others, one who remembers > the > > offence of anothers, one who by himself keeps remembering others¹ > offences > > and gets angry.> > > So, we only can find out the truth at the moment the citta with dosa > arises. > > I quote a sutta: > > > > There are nine bases of dosa. We read in the Gradual Sayings Book > of the > > Nines, Ch III, § 9, IV, 406): > > ³Monks, there are these nine bases of strife. What nine? > > (The thought): He has done me harm-stirs up strife; so also the > thoughts: he > > is doing me harm; he will do me harm; he has done harm to a dear > and loved > > one of mine; he is doing harm to such an one; he will do harm to him; > he has > > done good to one who is not dear or loved by me; he is doing good > to such an > > one; he will do good to him...² > > The Dhammasanga.ni gives the same nine bases, but adds the > cases that dosa > > arises groundlessly, when there is too much or too little rain, when the > sun > > is too hot or not hot enough, etc. We are inclined to believe that the > > causes of dosa are outside ourselves, with other people or the > > circumstances. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to > pleasant > > objects and when we do not obtain them we have aversion. The > circumstances > > or other people are not as we would like them to be.> > > > > T: Further, can such detailed information about citta help a vipassana > > meditator to make better progress than other meditators who don't > have the > > knowledge? > > > > N: It depends on the individual's inclination how many details he > wants to > > study. We cannot experience all realities that are taught directly, but, > as > > I said, they help for an over all picture, can help to understand > > conditions, they illustrate the anattaness. But, when we study, we > should > > never forget the goal. It is good you remind us of this. > > We cannot measure who makes more progress. Perhaps, it would > be better not > > to think of progress. That kind of thinking distracts from our task right > > now. Also progress is dependent on conditions. > > I am enjoying your questions, and these help me to consider the > reason for > > my study. > > Nina. 39943 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Is there seeing now? kusala and akusala./Joop Hello Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > Hallo Azita > > Although I have not read the whole thread "Is there seeing now' and > although I don't know much of me, a reaction. > To me your message sounds very wise, in general and about the (old) > discussion jhana - vipassana. > But I have one question. You wrote: > " At the moment of kusala citta, which includes insight and jhana, > there is tranquillity - passadhi- which has the characteristic of > quietening down of disturbance in the metal body and consciousness. > There is malleability - mudutaa - which has the characteristic of > subsiding of rigidity in the mental body and consciousness. There is > lightness - lahutaa. Why bother to attempt jhana when awareness and > understanding of the characteristics of a presently arising dhamma > are accompanied by calm, malleability, lightness." > > Do you really think we have two bodies: a metal body and a mental > body ? And what then is 'metal' ? Do be clear: I don't believe in two > (or more) kinds of body and I don't think it's in the teachings, is > it ? > > Metta > > Joop Azita: LOL. only if you think you are "I Robot" or "Terminator Man" or some Hollywood sci-fi creation :-0 Its actually a typo error. It should all read as 'mental body'. Altho. the idea of a metal body appeals to my rather bizare sense of humour, I could force my way thro Xmas shoppers without sustaining any injuries at all. I could become a "Steel Shiela" Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 39944 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Samsara and Nibbana are the same', TG, Suan. Hi Jon, > Hi, Herman > > Having difficulty figuring out just what your concern is. It seems you think I am preaching a gospel of despair, in that I "doubt the attainability of jhana or nibbana" for myself. Have I got it right? > > Let me ask you this: If a person who had studied the Dhamma for most of their adult life came to the conclusion that their own awareness was still weak and relatively undeveloped, would they necessarily be wrong? >It may well be that that person has a different idea to you as to exactly what amounts to awareness or insight. Perhaps this would be a fruitful area for further discussion (you don't have to quote from the Tipitaka if you don't want to, but neither should there be any constraint on doing so for those who see value in it). Yes, I see and accept what you are saying. I see the program of the Buddha to be fundamentally at odds with the program of the Abhidhammists and commentators. I see the program of the Buddha, having discovered the structure of "thinking", as being the teaching of how to unlearn "thinking". On the other hand, I see the program of the Abhidhammists and commentators as an unparalleled exercise in the expansion of "thinking". Ne'er the twain shall meet. In your reply to Howard's reply to what started as a humurous enough exchange, you make it clear that you are unwilling to contemplate the suttas without a trusty commentary by your side, and you express your conviction that your particular method of studying the texts holds the key to the further development of intellectual understanding and direct insight (sorry if I have misrepresented you). You also express above that it would be possible to have studied most of one's adult life and still have awareness that is weak and relatively undeveloped. Persistence with a goal and persistence with a method that doesn't seem to be getting one anywhere suggests a contentment with the state of personal affairs. And your regular rejections of suggestions from anyone re the attainability of jhana and nibbana in the here-and-now as being "talking about the matter based on one's (necessarily limited) personal experience, or expressing a personal view on the matter" seem to be based on unawareness that samsara and the way out are entirely a matter of personal experience. I am happy that you are happy, Jon. A bit of mudita at the personal experiences of group members is always a possibility, as is the rejection of those experiences on "textual grounds". In the end, whatever call is made will bear its fruit. That sounds a bit threatening, but it really is just the way it is, isn't it? Kind Regards Herman > > Looking forward to your further comments. > > Jon > All the best Herman 39945 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (186)Htoo. Hello, Jonothan - Thank you for your encouragement; it shows the open-mindedness of an exceptional moderator. My two questions may not be acceptable by a biased moderator who thinks that I am attacking Abhidhamma believers. I am glad you don't feel that way. > My own view is that there is much in the teachings that is > needed for background information but that is not necessarily > to be directly known and realised for oneself. Yes, I agree with you that some "background information" is needed as foundation to build more advanced knowledges. I even questioned vipassana meditators about "direct knowing" that they claimed they had. My study of the Tipitaka indicates that "seeing and knowing", without a thought, is supposed to be an Ariya's capability, not something that belongs to ordinary meditators. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Tep > > A good question. I look forward to the discussion on this point. My own > view is that there is much in the teachings that is needed for background > information but that is not necessarily to be directly known and realised > for oneself. But I look forward to responses from the Nina and Htoo (and > others). > > Jon > > PS Welcome back to the list from me, too. > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mrs. Gorkom and Htoo, > > > > Although I have been impressed by the many concepts and > > complexities of the Abhidhamma, I can't help wondering about > > practical values of the knowledge about the various kinds of citta; > > e.g.the 7th domanassa javana citta, aagantuka bhavanga citta, and so > > on. How may we verify that these cittas really exist, not just only in > > the > > book? Further, can such detailed information about citta help a > > vipassana meditator to make better progress than other meditators > > who don't have the knowledge? > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > Tep 39946 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:54pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (188) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas. Each citta has accompanying cetasikas. There are 14 functions of citta. Even though there are 89 cittas, a citta may do as many as 5 functions or as few as one function only. 1. Patisandhi kicca or linking function a) 2 upekkha santirana cittas b) 8 mahavipaka cittas c) 5 rupavipaka cittas d) 4 arupavipaka cittas ---------------------- 19 cittas These 19 cittas can perform the job of linking of previous life's cuti citta and the present life's 1st bhavanga citta. As they can do this job, these 19 cittas are sometimes called 19 patisandhi cittas. 2. Bhavanga kicca or life-continuing function a) 2 upekkha santirana cittas b) 8 mahavipaka cittas c) 5 rupavipaka cittas d) 4 arupavipaka cittas ---------------------- 19 cittas These 19 cittas can perform the job of life-continuing function. They are sometimes called 19 bhavanga cittas. 3. Avajjana kicca or adverting function Pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta can perform the job of adverting function. When cittas are in the 5-sense-door process, pancadvaravajjana citta does adverting. When vithi cittas are in the mind-sense-door process or manodvara vithi, then manodvaravajjana citta does adverting. These 2 cittas are called avajjana cittas. 4. Dasana kicca or seeing function Ahetuka akusala vipaka cakkhuvinnana citta and ahetuka kusala vipaka cakkhuvinnana citta do the job of seeing function. These 2 cittas are also called dvi-cakkhuvinnana cittas. 5. Savana kicca or hearing function Ahetuka akusala vipaka sotavinnana citta and ahetuka kusala vipaka sotavinnana citta do the job of hearing function. These 2 cittas are also called dvi-sotavinnana cittas. 6. Ghayana kicca or smelling function Ahetuka akusala vipaka ghanavinnana citta and ahetuka kusala vipaka ghanavinnana citta do the job of smelling function. These 2 cittas are also called dvi-ghanavinnana cittas. 7. Sayana kicca or tasting function Ahetuka akusala vipaka jivhavinnana citta and ahetuka kusala vipaka jivhavinnana citta do the job of tasting function. These 2 cittas are also called dvi-jivhavinnana cittas. 8. Phusana kicca or touching function Ahetuka akusala vipaka kayavinnana citta and ahetuka kusala vipaka kayavinnana citta do the job of touching function. These 2 cittas are also called dvi-kayavinnana cittas. 9. Sampaticchana kicca or receiving function Ahetuka akusala vipaka sampaticchana citta and ahetuka kusala vipaka sampaticchana citta do the job of receiving function. These 2 cittas are called 2 sampaticchana cittas. 10. Santirana kicca or investigating function Ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta and 2 ahetuka kusala vipaka santirana cittas ( one upekkha and one somanassa )do the job of investigating function. These 3 cittas are called 3 santirana cittas. 11. Votthapana kicca or determining function Only manodvaravajjana citta can do the job of determining function. 12. Javana kicca or mental-impulsing function There are 55 cittas who do this job of mental impulsion. This is apperception. This is the stage of full perception. Javana means 'swift' 'fast' 'quick'. As they happen in 7 successive moments, they sound like running through 7 moments. These 55 cittas are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 1 ahetuka kiriya hasituppada citta c) 8 mahakusala cittas d) 8 mahakiriya cittas e) 5 rupakusala cittas ( 5 rupa jhanas of non-arahats ) f) 5 rupakiriya cittas ( 5 rupa jhanas of arahats ) g) 4 arupakusala cittas( 4 arupa jhanas of non-arahats ) h) 4 arupakiriya cittas( 4 arupa jhanas of arahats ) i) 4 lokuttara kusala cittas ( 4 magga cittas ) j) 4 lokuttara vipaka cittas ( 4 phala cittas ) ----------------------------- 55 javana cittas A)12 cittas are akusala javana cittas. B)21 cittas are kusala javana cittas ( 17 loki and 4 lokuttara ) C)18 cittas are kiriya javana cittas ( 9 kama, 5 rupa, 4 arupa ) D) 4 cittas are vipaka javana cittas ---------------------------------- 55 javana cittas There are a total of 20 kiriya cittas. But 2 kiriya cittas cannot perform the job of javana cittas. They are pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta. Unlike other vipaka cittas who can never perform javana cittas as they all are the result of past akusala or kusala, lokuttara vipaka cittas CAN perform the job of javana cittas. Because these 4 lokuttara vipaka cittas are ,unlike other vipaka, the highest of all other cittas and because of the power of lokuttara they CAN perform the job of javana cittas. This is the only exception for vipaka cittas who do javana function. 13. Tadarammana kicca or retaining function There are 11 cittas who can do the job of retention. They are 3 santirana cittas ( 2 upekkha and 1 somanassa )and 8 mahavipaka cittas ( 4 upekkha and 4 somanassa ), altogether 11 cittas. These 11 cittas are also called 11 tadarammana cittas. All these 11 cittas are patisandhi, bhavanga, or cuti citta of kama sattas and this is why only kama sattas can have tadarammana cittas. There is no tadarammana citta in rupa brahma bhumis or fine material realms and arupa brahma bhumis or immaterial realms. 14. Cuti kicca or last-existing function or dying function a) 2 upekkha santirana cittas b) 8 mahavipaka cittas c) 5 rupavipaka cittas d) 4 arupa vipaka cittas -------------------- 19 cittas These 19 cittas can perform the job of last-living or last-existing or dying function. They are sometimes called 19 cuti cittas. So there will be functionwise 1. 19 patisandhi cittas ( repeated in cuti cittas ) 2. 19 bhavanga cittas ( repeated in cuti cittas ) 3. 2 avajjana cittas ( 1 citta is repeated as votthapana citta ) 4. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas 5. 2 sotavinnana cittas 6. 2 ghanavinnana cittas 7. 2 jivhavinnana cittas 8. 2 kayavinnana cittas 9. 2 sampaticchana cittas 10. 3 santirana cittas ( 2 upekkha santiranas are repeated in cuti) 11. 1 votthapana citta 12. 55 javana cittas 13. 11 tadarammana cittas ( 8 in cutis and 3 in santiranas ) 14. 19 cuti cittas -------------- 141 cittas - ( overlapping cittas ) = 89 cittas Overlapping cittas are 1. 19 patisandhi cittas 2. 19 bhavanga cittas 3. 3 santirana cittas ( somanas santirana has to be re-added ) 4. 1 votthapana citta 5. 11 tadarammana cittas ------ 53 cittas ( - somanassa santirana to be re-added ) = 52 cittas 141 cittas - ( 52 overlapping cittas ) = 89 cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39947 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (189) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are cittas who can perform up to 5 functions. A. 2 pancakiccaka cittas 2 upekkha santirana cittas can perform 1. santirana kicca or investigating function 2. tadarammana kicca or retaining function 3. patisandhi kicca or linking function 4. bhavanga kicca or life-continuing function 5. cuti kicca or last-living function or dying function. B. 8 catukiccaka cittas 8 mahavipaka cittas can perform 1. tadarammana kicca or retaining function 2. patisandhi kicca or linking function 3. bhavanga citta or life-continuing function 4. cuti kicca or last-living function or dying function. C. 9 tikiccaka cittas 9 cittas that is 5 rupavipaka cittas and 4 arupa vipaka cittas altogether 9 cittas can perform 1. patisandhi kicca or linking function 2. bhavanga kicca or life-continuing function 3. cuti kicca or last-living function or dying function D. 2 dvikiccaka cittas a) somanassa santirana citta can perform 1. santirana kicca or investigating function 2. tadarammana kicca or retaining function b) manodvaravajjana citta can perform 1. avajjana kicca or adverting function 2. votthapana kicca or determing function E. 68 ekakiccaka cittas a) 55 javana cittas can perform javana kicca only. b) 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas can perform dasana kicca only. c) 2 sotavinnana cittas can perform savana kicca only. d) 2 ghanavinnana cittas can perform ghayana kicca only. e) 2 jivhavinnana cittas can perform sayana kicca only. f) 2 kayavinnana cittas can perform phusana kicca only. g) 2 sampaticchana citta can perform sampaticchana kicca only. h) 1 pancadvaravajjana citta can perform avajjana kicca only. --------------------------- 68 ekakiccaka cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39948 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hi Joop, I also find the proliferation of names for the rungs on the spiritual ladder curious to say the least. I think by the time of the Mil. there are as many as 8 levels. Perhaps my thinking is too narrow, but I have never quite understood who, apart from a wordling, would use the term "sotapanna" (the base rung). Certainly, the sentence "I am a sotapanna" is ridiculous. And, who but a wordling, who wouldn't know what it meant anyway, would say "S/he is a sotapanna"? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > > Dear all, > > The article of Bhikkhu Bodhi that did arise the thread "Letter to > B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..'" has as base the > assumption that there are four sequential stages of liberation: > Sotapanna, Sakadagamin, Anagamin, Arahat. > These four are mentioned in many sutta's, but not in all ! > PhD-research on four Nikayas (AN, DN, MS, SN) of B.J. Manné of > Utrecht University made clear also a two-stage model or a three- stage > model is used. > > Especially the Sakadagamin (Once-returner) is given mimimal attention > in the sutta's. > Also passages devoted to defining the psychology or the mental state > of the Anagamin (Non-returner) are rare; and the difference with > another word of this stage (Opapatika) is vague. > "The stage anagamin contradicts the basic buddhistteaching that > enlightenment is attainable in the present lifetime. This discrepancy > shows that this stage was invented later, and most likely after the > time of the Buddha." > > She concludes that "the stages sotapanna and arahat can be regarded > as pertaining to early buddhism. In the beginning, therefore, there > were just two stages: that of the converts and those who had attained > the goal. During the development of Buddhism the issue of rebirth > came to be increasingly important, and with it, probably developing > in parallet, the issue of wether liberation was attained during the > lifetime or after death. ." > > My intuition is that this conclusion of Manne sounds logical and > soteriological well. Getting a sotapanna in this life is in this way > of reasoning not very very very difficult. Thousands or millions > (it's difficult to count) human beings living in this moment (nearly > 2005 CE) on this planet are sotapanna. > (I'm afraid I'm not yet: the samyojana (fetter) of doubt/skepticism > is still existing in me) > > Any comments ? > > Metta > > Joop 39949 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two or four stages of liberation ? Hi Joop This "two stage" scholarship didn't make any sense to me. If one reads the Suttas often enough to be familiar with what's in them, then one would know that "4 stages" are spoken of often and are not rare. I have never seen anything in the Suttas that would give the impression that "2 stages" of liberation would constitute some type of catagory. TG In a message dated 12/18/2004 8:16:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: Dear all, The article of Bhikkhu Bodhi that did arise the thread "Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..'" has as base the assumption that there are four sequential stages of liberation: Sotapanna, Sakadagamin, Anagamin, Arahat. These four are mentioned in many sutta's, but not in all ! PhD-research on four Nikayas (AN, DN, MS, SN) of B.J. Manné of Utrecht University made clear also a two-stage model or a three-stage model is used. Especially the Sakadagamin (Once-returner) is given mimimal attention in the sutta's. Also passages devoted to defining the psychology or the mental state of the Anagamin (Non-returner) are rare; and the difference with another word of this stage (Opapatika) is vague. "The stage anagamin contradicts the basic buddhistteaching that enlightenment is attainable in the present lifetime. This discrepancy shows that this stage was invented later, and most likely after the time of the Buddha." She concludes that "the stages sotapanna and arahat can be regarded as pertaining to early buddhism. In the beginning, therefore, there were just two stages: that of the converts and those who had attained the goal. During the development of Buddhism the issue of rebirth came to be increasingly important, and with it, probably developing in parallet, the issue of wether liberation was attained during the lifetime or after death. ." My intuition is that this conclusion of Manne sounds logical and soteriological well. Getting a sotapanna in this life is in this way of reasoning not very very very difficult. Thousands or millions (it's difficult to count) human beings living in this moment (nearly 2005 CE) on this planet are sotapanna. (I'm afraid I'm not yet: the samyojana (fetter) of doubt/skepticism is still existing in me) Any comments ? Metta Joop 39950 From: Egbert Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hi TG, Joop and all, From PTS on anagamin: "We have only two cases in the canon of any living persons being called anagamin. Those are at S v.177 and 178. The word there means one who has broken the lower five of the ten bonds, & the individuals named are laymen. At D II.92 nine others, of whom eight are laymen, are declared after their death to have reached the third stage (as above) during life, but they are not called anagamins. At It 96 there are only 3 stages, the worldling, the Anagamin, and the Arahant; and the Sanyojanas are not referred to. It is probable that already in the Nikaya period the older, wider meaning was falling into disuse. The Abhidhamma books seem to refer only to the Sanyojana explanation; the commentaries, so far as we know them, ignore any other. " I don't know whether this constitutes a consistent and common usage. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Joop > > This "two stage" scholarship didn't make any sense to me. If one reads the > Suttas often enough to be familiar with what's in them, then one would know > that "4 stages" are spoken of often and are not rare. I have never seen anything > in the Suttas that would give the impression that "2 stages" of liberation > would constitute some type of catagory. > > TG > > > In a message dated 12/18/2004 8:16:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, > jwromeijn@y... writes: > Dear all, > > The article of Bhikkhu Bodhi that did arise the thread "Letter to > B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..'" has as base the > assumption that there are four sequential stages of liberation: > Sotapanna, Sakadagamin, Anagamin, Arahat. > These four are mentioned in many sutta's, but not in all ! > PhD-research on four Nikayas (AN, DN, MS, SN) of B.J. Manné of > Utrecht University made clear also a two-stage model or a three- stage > model is used. > > Especially the Sakadagamin (Once-returner) is given mimimal attention > in the sutta's. > Also passages devoted to defining the psychology or the mental state > of the Anagamin (Non-returner) are rare; and the difference with > another word of this stage (Opapatika) is vague. > "The stage anagamin contradicts the basic buddhistteaching that > enlightenment is attainable in the present lifetime. This discrepancy > shows that this stage was invented later, and most likely after the > time of the Buddha." > > She concludes that "the stages sotapanna and arahat can be regarded > as pertaining to early buddhism. In the beginning, therefore, there > were just two stages: that of the converts and those who had attained > the goal. During the development of Buddhism the issue of rebirth > came to be increasingly important, and with it, probably developing > in parallet, the issue of wether liberation was attained during the > lifetime or after death. ." > > My intuition is that this conclusion of Manne sounds logical and > soteriological well. Getting a sotapanna in this life is in this way > of reasoning not very very very difficult. Thousands or millions > (it's difficult to count) human beings living in this moment (nearly > 2005 CE) on this planet are sotapanna. > (I'm afraid I'm not yet: the samyojana (fetter) of doubt/skepticism > is still existing in me) > > Any comments ? > > Metta > > Joop > 39951 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hi Herman, Joop, all Stream-winners, once returners, non-returners, and arahats (of course) are cited often throughout the Suttas. In a brief cursory galnce at the Majjhima Nikaya (MLDB english), I found two Suttas that list and extensively deal with all four and two other Suttas that dealt with non-returners. That makes 4 Suttas in the Majjhima Nikaya that mention non-returners, with about 20 minutes of effort looking. I'm sure there are many others. And they are translated as stream-entrants (winners), once-returners, non-returners, and arahats, except in 73 where they are talked about as being born into pure abodes will attain final Nibbana without ever returning from there. (Sounds like a non-returner to me.) Majjhima Nikaya Suttas #34 and #68 deal with all four. Majjhima Nikaya Suttas #52 and #73 also deal with arahtas and non-returners. Sutta #73 makes the point that there are more that 500 lay men and 500 lay women who are non-returners. I believe the scholarship Joop was citing was trying to make a case that non-returner references in the Suttas are rare. They are not rare. TG In a message dated 12/18/2004 6:10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: Hi TG, Joop and all, From PTS on anagamin: "We have only two cases in the canon of any living persons being called anagamin. Those are at S v.177 and 178. The word there means one who has broken the lower five of the ten bonds, & the individuals named are laymen. At D II.92 nine others, of whom eight are laymen, are declared after their death to have reached the third stage (as above) during life, but they are not called anagamins. At It 96 there are only 3 stages, the worldling, the Anagamin, and the Arahant; and the Sanyojanas are not referred to. It is probable that already in the Nikaya period the older, wider meaning was falling into disuse. The Abhidhamma books seem to refer only to the Sanyojana explanation; the commentaries, so far as we know them, ignore any other. " I don't know whether this constitutes a consistent and common usage. Kind Regards Herman 39952 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two or four stages of liberation ? Joop: "...the samyojana (fetter) of doubt/skepticism is still existing in me) Any comments ?" Hi Joop, The satipatthana solution is to simply recognize doubt as doubt. At some point it will dawn on you that doubt is not self. Then the latent tendency of doubt will be swept away. Larry 39953 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Vism.XIV,125 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE FEELING AGGREGATE] 125. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of being felt is feeling itself, according as it is said, 'It is felt, friend, that is why it is called feeling' (M.i,293). 39954 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Gethin in Bangkok Greetings all, I am just delurking to make an announcement for list members living in Bangkok. The current PTS president, Rupert Gethin, is in town and will be delivering two public lectures on the 20th and 21st of this month. The venue is Room 105, Mahachula Building, Chulalongkorn University, Henri Dunant Road, Pathumwan District. There are conflicting reports of whether the lectures will begin at 1:30 or 2:00 pm, so I suppose it would be better to show up at the earlier time. The first lecture is on the historical Buddha and the second on meditation and mythology. Best wishes, Dhammanando 39955 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:13pm Subject: Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi Herman, ------------------- H: > I hope there are plenty of big waves and no white pointers about. ------------------- Have you seen Noosa on the TV news? Stinking black algae and weed have invaded our beaches. The chance of seeing a shark would be a fine thing. ------------- <. . .> H: > Why take your lead from "some ancient commentaries" ? You have a problem with the words of the Buddha, mate? ------------- I will treat that question with the disdain it deserves. :-) ------------------------- H: > Believe me, your surfing body will die, regardless of how parramattha your dhammas are :-) -------------------------- :-) Right understanding of the former leads to happy rebirth: right understanding of the latter leads to Nibbana. Ken H 39956 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:47pm Subject: Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hello Herman, TG, Joop, all, You quote from a PTS definition of 'anagamin'- See full definition at: http://tinyurl.com/6k8m6 ... but the PTS dictionary is just that, a dictionary, and merely points out the occurences of the particular word 'anagamin'. Other words are used to allude to that state, for instance, as an example, in DN Sutta 6 v. 13 the word Opapaatika is used and given the specific sense of Non-Returner (anaagaamii). "Again, a monk who has abandoned the three fetters, and has reduced his greed, hatred and delusion, becomes a Once-Returner who, having returned to this world once more, will make an end of suffering. Again, a monk who has abandoned the five lower fetters takes a spontaneous rebirth [in a higher sphere] and, without returning from that world, gains enlightenment." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi TG, Joop and all, > > From PTS on anagamin: "We have only two cases in the canon of any > living persons being called anagamin. Those are at S v.177 and 178. > The word there means one who has broken the lower five of the ten > bonds, & the individuals named are laymen. At D II.92 nine others, > of whom eight are laymen, are declared after their death to have > reached the third stage (as above) during life, but they are not > called anagamins. At It 96 there are only 3 stages, the worldling, > the Anagamin, and the Arahant; and the Sanyojanas are not referred > to. It is probable that already in the Nikaya period the older, > wider meaning was falling into disuse. The Abhidhamma books seem to > refer only to the Sanyojana explanation; the commentaries, so far as > we know them, ignore any other. " > > I don't know whether this constitutes a consistent and common usage. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 39957 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 12/19/04 1:13:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > H: >Believe me, your surfing body will die, regardless of how > parramattha your dhammas are :-) > -------------------------- > > :-) Right understanding of the former leads to happy rebirth: right > understanding of the latter leads to Nibbana. > ======================= Ken, I can't let this go by without commenting on it: That was VERY well said!! I really like it a lot. Of course I could add on a lot of stuff about how it is important to know what is what first hand, and not just intellectually, and also how critically important it is to see directly that the paramattha dhammas aren't all that "paramattha", being empty of self-existence, fully dependent for their very "life" on other equally foam-like phenomena, fleeting, and completely unworthy of grasping, even painful. But I won't say any of that ;-)), because I really do want to emphasize that I truly like what you had to say! Hmm - Herman, there was a very old film entitled "How Green is My Valley". Maybe they should produce a new film entitled "How paramattha are My Dhammas"! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39958 From: Date: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:12pm Subject: An Interesting Meditation Hi, all - A brief report: I had a short meditation this evening, just for 30 minutes. I settled down quickly, becoming quite calm, relaxed, and alert. About 10 minutes in, all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted, and a combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed, which "brought me out". The thinking that brought me out was a conceptual understanding of what had been happening during the meditation. I realized that during the meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance, there were no "stories", and there were no conventional objects or things observed; but there was the very clear seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of experience. Also, as I think back about it now, there was no sense at all of knowing subject - just the experiential flow. Very interesting, this was. For too long of a while now, my meditations have been calm and reasonably clear when not bogged down by sloth & torpor, but nothing very interesting or promising - a lengthy period of apparent stagnation. This evening's was the first sitting in a long time that had something a bit more to it. It was quite encouraging. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39959 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is there seeing now? kusala and akusala./Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Joop, ... You make me happy. I thought you were using some new age idea about gros-material and fine-material Metta Joop 39960 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hallo TG TG: " I believe the scholarship Joop was citing was trying to make a case that non-returner references in the Suttas are rare. They are not rare." Joop: No, not rare, see my quote. But not all suttas use the four- stage-model, and especially not the oldest suttas. You remember the many suttas in which the audience of the Buddha got arahats ? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Herman, Joop, all > > Stream-winners, once returners, non-returners, and arahats (of course) are > cited often throughout the Suttas. In a brief cursory galnce at the Majjhima > Nikaya (MLDB english), I found two Suttas that list and extensively deal with > all four and two other Suttas that dealt with non-returners. That makes 4 > Suttas in the Majjhima Nikaya that mention non-returners, with about 20 minutes of > effort looking. I'm sure there are many others. And they are translated as > stream-entrants (winners), once-returners, non-returners, and arahats, except > in 73 where they are talked about as being born into pure abodes will attain > final Nibbana without ever returning from there. (Sounds like a non-returner to > me.) > > Majjhima Nikaya Suttas #34 and #68 deal with all four. Majjhima Nikaya > Suttas #52 and #73 also deal with arahtas and non-returners. Sutta #73 makes the > point that there are more that 500 lay men and 500 lay women who are > non-returners. > > I believe the scholarship Joop was citing was trying to make a case that > non-returner references in the Suttas are rare. They are not rare. > > TG > > > In a message dated 12/18/2004 6:10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > Hi TG, Joop and all, > > From PTS on anagamin: "We have only two cases in the canon of any > living persons being called anagamin. Those are at S v.177 and 178. > The word there means one who has broken the lower five of the ten > bonds, & the individuals named are laymen. At D II.92 nine others, > of whom eight are laymen, are declared after their death to have > reached the third stage (as above) during life, but they are not > called anagamins. At It 96 there are only 3 stages, the worldling, > the Anagamin, and the Arahant; and the Sanyojanas are not referred > to. It is probable that already in the Nikaya period the older, > wider meaning was falling into disuse. The Abhidhamma books seem to > refer only to the Sanyojana explanation; the commentaries, so far as > we know them, ignore any other. " > > I don't know whether this constitutes a consistent and common usage. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > 39961 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: Gethin in Bangkok I have now been sent the full titles of the lectures: Monday: "In Quest of the Historical Buddha" Tuesday: "Meditation & Mythology from the Mahasudassana Sutta to the Sukhavativyuha Sutra". A note for any non-Thais who are planning to attend: if you are planning to go by taxi, Henri Dunant Road is pronounced "thanon ang-ree doo-nang". The Mahachula Building is just opposite the Royal Sports Club. Best wishes, Dhammanando 39962 From: Philip Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Howard Congratulations on this good meditation experience, Howard. I remember reading about 6 months ago about your determination to make progress and feeling mudita, and I feel it again. >I realized that during the > meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance there were no "stories" I'm aflood in an ocean of stories these days, both from my own life and from all the suttas I've been reading. I can be aware of all this thinking, and am aware of it, but it's so effusive, so rampant, so raging that I can hardly feel detached and I certainly don't have any control over it. The desire to meditate in order to try to impose order is quite strong, but I have not taken that step yet - I may during my upcoming holiday. Yes, wrong view of self will be involved in trying to impose order, but there are times I think "so be it." I've been thinking of a metaphor of the difference between standing in a middle of a forest fire and trying to figure out what fuels are feeding the fire, and observing the fire from an observation deck. I haven't meditated enough to know if this metaphor could apply. I know that you are talking about a level of concentration that I don't aspire to, and I know and well understand the reasons why Nina and others advise against formal meditation, and yet I am still interested. I have such respect for people like Nina who find insight with such courage and patience in daily life. It would take a lot of courage for me to continue to be subject to the raging currents of thought without doing something about it, to patiently wait for ever- so-gradually developing mindfulness to lead to a subsiding of the currents. Courage and faith. I may find it. Or maybe I'll just put the suttas away for awhile, or take a break from Dhamma discussion for awhile. I find myself spending my daily life *thinking* about suttas about bare experience! But so little bare experience. Patience, I know. Patience with good things like the Dhamma as well as with unpleasant things. The level of interest I have in meditation could be a good thing or a bad thing. If I expect results, or solace from the sea of thoughts, I will be operating from self. On the other hand, it could lead to meditation which brings benefits that I am depriving myself of because I take what my Dhamma friends tell me to be the truth without testing it for myself. I really think I should try meditating again. If I don't, the attachment to the idea of meditating will still be with me. If I try, I can find out for myself whether it brings benefits or not, and either release the attachment by discarding meditation, or develop it in a skillful way. The third possibility, that I'll take to meditation in a subtly unskillful way that creates obstacles to true mindfulness, is also a real possibility, of course. Quite possibly the most likely result for someone working without a teacher. Yes, I think I should try over the holidays. There is too much reading and too much thinking about Dhamma going on these days in this head of mine. I won't expect it to bring insight, but I will expect it to give my brain a break from generating stories in such a rampant way. I have given up meditation in the past - and this was *before* I joined this group and heard from others who also gave up meditation - so I will be able to do so again if it is not for me. Anyways, congratulations, Howard. It would be ungenerous of anyone to doubt that the meditation unfolded the way you say it did. Metta, Phil 39963 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: Gethin in Bangkok Greetings Ven Sir, Many thanks for this information. Unfortunately we (Sarah and I) will not be in Bangkok on those dates, otherwise we would make a point of going along. We appreciate very much Professor Gethin's contribution to Pali scholarship, including his role as president of the PTS. We make frequent use on this list of the translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and its main commentary that he co-translated. Thanks again for sharing this information. Respectfully Jon PS If there is any chance of a brief summary of the talks finding its way onto the list that would be much appreciated. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Greetings all, > > I am just delurking to make an announcement for list members > living in Bangkok. The current PTS president, Rupert Gethin, > is in town and will be delivering two public lectures on the > 20th and 21st of this month. The venue is Room 105, > Mahachula Building, Chulalongkorn University, Henri Dunant > Road, Pathumwan District. There are conflicting reports of > whether the lectures will begin at 1:30 or 2:00 pm, so I > suppose it would be better to show up at the earlier time. > The first lecture is on the historical Buddha and the second > on meditation and mythology. > > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando 39964 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two or four stages of liberation ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > The satipatthana solution is to simply recognize doubt as doubt. At some point it will dawn on you that doubt is not self. Then the latent > tendency of doubt will be swept away. > > Larry Thanks Larry, that will be great I think I'm not a believer after that Metta Joop 39965 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:05am Subject: RE: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi, Herman -----Original Message----- From: Egbert [mailto:hhofman@t...] Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 2:37 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... H: ... I am wondering about your usage of the terms "absolute" and "same". In the way I would use the terms, no thing can be the same as an absolute, and if it were, it would render the absolute relative. Am I misreading your usage? J: 'Absolute' (sometimes 'ultimate') is a translation of the Pali term 'paramattha' from the commentaries. Let me explain my understanding of what the term means in this context. All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in fact defines what a dhamma is). So the dhamma that is, say, attachment is recognisably (to panna) of the same esesntial characteristic whenever it arises, that is, for all beings at all times, regardless of the object, intensity or other circumstances of any particular experience. Likewise, the experience of hearing sound is in essence the same for everyone at all moments of the bare experiencing of audible object, before there is any recognition of the 'source' or 'meaning' or 'direction' etc of the sound (in the texts this is referred to as attention to the general appearance and detail of the sense-door object). Now saying that the moment of bare experience of the sense-door object is in essence the same does not of course mean that everyone's experience on hearing the 'same' sound is subjectively identical, since what we mean by an 'experience' in this context is not the actual moment of hearing of sound but later mind-door moments or processes during which the previously experienced audible data is processed (i.e., attention is paid to the general appearance and detail). In short, 'absolute' has a specific meaning in the context, so whether or not one agrees with the choice of term, it needs to be considered in that light. H: And what is to be said about the visual experiences of a colour- blind being and a not colour blind being sitting in a room with every surface painted red? I can see that whatever is experienced individually is absolutely experienced, but in which way are their experiences the same? J: The same can be said about this as can be said about different moments of visual experience by the same person: the moments of bare sense-door experience share the same essential characteristic, namely, the experience of visible object through that doorway. Hoping that this clarifies the usage of the term 'absolute'. Not to be thought of in terms of its usage in other contexts. Jon 39966 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:30am Subject: RE: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Howard The passage that follows, taken from Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Roots of Existence'translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, has I think a direct bearing on your comments relating to the question of dhammas bearing their own characteristics. ******************* Sutta: "the exposition of the root of all things" (sabbadhamma) Cy: Here the word [dhamma] occurs in the sense of things endowed with a specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkha.na"m dhaarentii ti dhammaa). Sub-Cy: "They bear their own characteristics": although there are no dhammas devoid of their own characteristics, this is still said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributions as that of a "being" etc. ... And though there is no real distinction (between these dhammas and their characteristics), still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device (upacaaramatta). Or else they are borne, they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas (dhaariiyanti vaa yathaasabhaavato avadhaariyanti ~naayanatii ti dhammaa). ******************* Does this answer any of your concerns on these points? I have some comments on other parts of your post but will write separately and I have limited time at the moment. Jon -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:41 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - ... The expression 'bear their own characteristic' isn't clear. Is the dhamma one thing and the characteristic another? At the level of paramathha dhamma, I do not think so. A hardness doesn't "bear" the characteristic of hardness. Hardness *is* hardness, and there is nothing more to say. ... Seeing doesn't have the *characteristic* of experiencing visible object. Seeing *is* the experiencing of visible object. ... At the level of paramattha dhammas, there are just the dhammas, not characteristics of them. If there is a dhamma and also a characteristic of the dhamma that is not the dhamma itself, and if the characteristic is not imagined - if it is a reality, then that characteristic must be either a rupa, a citta, a cetasika, or nibbana according to Abhidhamma.This kind of close "quantum reality" analysis, Jon, just falls apart the deeper we get into it. We are talking in all this great detail about something we have no direct experience with whatsoever as though we *know* what we are talking about. But when it all starts to dissolve as the analysis gets too fine, we ought to take that as a warning, I think, and back off a bit. 39967 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hello, howard and Phil -- I think it is always a great benefit for us to discuss meditation practices in addition to Sila and Panna, since they are all related. Thank you for frankly telling us about your interesting meditation experience. Please allow me to ask you a number of questions in order to understand the mental phenomena during that short meditation. I hope you'll forgive me if you don't feel comfortable with any of these questions. 1. How would you describe your state of mind before the meditation started? What did you do to prepare the mind, or to "condition" it, for that wonderful result? 2. What would you call the mental quality, or mental state, that was thought-free and with "great calm and great clarity" during those 10 solid minutes? For example, did you have rapture (piti) or not?; did you have strong mindfulness with equanimity (ubekkha)? Does "great clarity" mean attainment of a vipassana-nana? If so, what kind of insight knowledge was it? 3. The following 'standard questions'[AN IV.94], if you don't mind answering them, will help me (and Phil) to fully understand your meditation experience during the 10 minutes: 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications(citta-sankhara) be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' Thank you very, very much, Howard. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A brief report: I had a short meditation this evening, just for 30 > minutes. I settled down quickly, becoming quite calm, relaxed, and alert. About > 10 minutes in, all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted, and a > combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed, which > "brought me out". > The thinking that brought me out was a conceptual understanding of > what had been happening during the meditation. I realized that during the > meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance, there were no "stories", and there > were no conventional objects or things observed; but there was the very clear > seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, > sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of > experience. Also, as I think back about it now, there was no sense at all of > knowing subject - just the experiential flow. > Very interesting, this was. For too long of a while now, my > meditations have been calm and reasonably clear when not bogged down by sloth & torpor, > but nothing very interesting or promising - a lengthy period of apparent > stagnation. This evening's was the first sitting in a long time that had something > a bit more to it. It was quite encouraging. :-) > > With metta, > Howard > 39968 From: Suravira Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Dear Ken, Thanks for joining this discussion. > I don't think you are using "false views" (micchi-ditthi) in the way > it is used in the Tipitaka. Which false views do you have in mind > when you say they are not eradicated at Stream-entry? > [Suravira] Refer to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha I-28: wrong view of individuality, doubt in the Dhamma and clinging to rites and rituals; IV-26: wrong view of individuality and doubt in the Dhamma. You will find concordant comments in the Visuddhimagga. > ----------------- > TG: > # 3. Your partial quote of Suravira's remarks kind of skewed > them to mean something less than what was really being said. > Nevertheless, I agree with your criticism that the Buddha did indeed > not teach in those words. It is only Suravira's interpretation that > leads him or her to use such words. > [Suravira] Everyone, without exception, interprets what they perceive - that is the natural function of the critical intellect - a faculty the Buddha highly recommended each of us use regarding religious teachings (refer to Anguttara Nikaya, chapter 3, sutta 65, the Kalama Sutta). If it were appropriate and sufficient to merely parrot what the Buddha taught then he would have given that instruction in an explicitly clear and comprehensive manner. To the contrary, in the Kalama Sutta the Buddha explicitly states "... NOR UPON WHAT IS IN A SCRIPTURE ... " > However, you proceed and do the exact same thing that you criticise > Suravira for doing. You claim that: -- "He taught us to develop > understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly when > they appear." No he did not teach that. That is your interpretation. [Suravira] It is never appropriate to discredit another person's inalienable right to engage their critical intellect. It is a time tested technique of cults to discredit individual acts of critical thinking. This technique is one of the ways that the cult leader moves the mark away from trusting their own personal experiences and critical intellect, so that they are dependent upon the cult leader who then tells them the 'right' things to think, say and do. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought without having to defend that right to anyone else. Furthermore, everyone has the right to express those thoughts without concern for another's abridgement of that right. Without freedom of thought there is no freedom of religion. Without freedom of religion, it is not possible to walk the path of enlightenment. > A tiny minority of Buddhists (notably K Sujin and her students) are > leading a resurgence of the ancient commentaries. Those Ancient > Commentaries add nothing new to the Dhamma, but they do put the > kybosh on the self-styled gurus and charlatan 'meditation masters.' > [Suravira] Wow! This is exactly the mindset of the Catholic Inquisition! No difference whatsoever. Everyone, without exception, puts their own spin on the Dhamma. K. Sujin is not an exception to this very human limitation. No one has omniscience! Does K Sujin have omniscience? No one is completely enlightened. Is K Sujin completely, and throughly enlightened? > and not the actual teaching of the Buddha. [Suravira] No one alive today can state what the actual teaching of the Buddha is. No one alive today can state that any sutta is the actual teaching of the Buddha. To assert that a given sutta is an actual teaching of the Buddha is nothing more than an act of faith - and there is nothing wrong with faith just so long as it is not blind. In addition, even if one were to be in possession of a literal, and throughly accurate, documentation of a teaching of the Buddha, there is still the (almost insurmountable) barrier of their ignorance to overcome. To claim, with any integrity, that they know the teaching of the Buddha, one must of necessity be a fully enlightened Buddha. > but it does > "preserve the truth." (Nice Sutta on Preserving the truth in > Majjhima Nikaya.) :-) [Suravira] And, are you the one who will inform the world of what 'the truth' is? If you desire to erradite your doubts in the Buddha's teachings on bodhisattva meditations and practices, a careful study of the Pali cannon will reveal a multitude of instructions by the Buddha on bodhisattva practices. I recommend that you review 'The Ten Perfections - A Study Guide' by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/perfections.html That is a very good place to start. I then recommend 'The Four Sublime States - Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity' by Nyanaponika Thera, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html Within your diatribe there exists a deep and strong fundamentalism. Fundamentalism has historically harmed humanity is ways that continue to re-define man's inhumanity to man. There is not now, and there never has been anything of even remedial value in fundamentalism. Underlying fundamentalism is hatred, under hatred is anger, under anger is fear, and under fear is ignorance. With mudita, Suravira 39969 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,125 Dear Larry, Which one do you prefer from 2 alternatives of translation of the meaning of 'Visuddhimagga'; 'path of purity' and 'path of purification'? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > [THE FEELING AGGREGATE] > > 125. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of being > felt should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate' > (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of being > felt is feeling itself, according as it is said, 'It is felt, friend, > that is why it is called feeling' (M.i,293). 39970 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Phil - In a message dated 12/19/04 6:00:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > > Hi Howard > > Congratulations on this good meditation experience, Howard. I > remember reading about 6 months ago about your determination to make > progress and feeling mudita, and I feel it again. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Phil. I don't mean to make too much of this. It was just one brief meditation. The next 100 could be filled with distraction, aversion, and lots of thinking! ;-)) It's just a small encouragement for me, a reminder that this practice does carry some potentiality that expreses itself in small ways at times. Just to be clear, this was no "enlightenment experience", not even close. It was merely an instance of conditions coming together in such a way to make for a more effective meditation than usual. What I liked so much about it, and where the real encouragement comes from, is that it involved a level of experience that was closer to "paramatthic" than usual, and it enabled me to see with a closer view, if not 100% directly, the correctness of the khandhic and anattic description of reality - to Anglicize a couple Pali words. Every once in a while, reality gives one a tiny pat on the back so as to say "Hey! It's for real. So keep it going, brother." ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > >I realized that during the > >meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance there were > no "stories" > > I'm aflood in an ocean of stories these days, both from my own > life and from all the suttas I've been reading. I can be aware of > all this thinking, and am aware of it, but it's so effusive, so > rampant, so raging that > I can hardly feel detached and I certainly don't have any control > over it. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure! Me too. The best we can do for the most part, I think, is to condition fewer and weaker arisings of akusala, to not feed them when they arise, and to avoid acting on them, and, of course, to encourage the arising of kusala. Frankly, it most of the time we can just avoid acting on our akusala impulses we are doing well!! :-( -------------------------------------- The desire to meditate in order to try to impose> > order is quite strong, but I have not taken that step yet - I may > during my upcoming holiday. Yes, wrong view of self will be involved > in trying to impose order, but there are times I think "so be it." ----------------------------------- Howard: I pretty much meditate just as a thing to do - like brushing my teeth. :-) I try to keep goals/aims out of it. ----------------------------------- > > I've been thinking of a metaphor of the difference between standing > in a middle of a forest fire and trying to figure out what fuels are > feeding the fire, and observing the fire from an observation deck. I > haven't meditated enough to know if this metaphor could apply. I know > that you are talking about a level of concentration that I don't > aspire to, and I know and well understand the reasons why Nina and > others advise against formal meditation, and yet I am still > interested. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I think meditation is basic to the Dhamma. It is also quite harmless if not much craving or expectation is invested in it. ------------------------------------ I have such respect for people like Nina who find insight> > with such courage and patience in daily life. It would take a lot of > courage for me to continue to be subject to the raging currents of > thought without doing something about it, to patiently wait for ever- > so-gradually developing mindfulness to lead to a subsiding of the > currents. Courage and faith. I may find it. Or maybe I'll just put the > suttas away for awhile, or take a break from Dhamma discussion for > awhile. --------------------------------------- Howard: It's very easy for us toover-do almost anything. So easy to go to extremes. --------------------------------------- > > I find myself spending my daily life *thinking* about suttas about > bare experience! But so little bare experience. Patience, I know. > Patience with good things like the Dhamma as well as with unpleasant > things. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Ongoing mindfulness is a *tough* practice! Maybe the hardest!!! -------------------------------------- > > The level of interest I have in meditation > could be a good thing or a bad thing. If I expect results, or solace > from the sea of thoughts, I will be operating from self. On the other > hand, it could lead to meditation which brings benefits that I am > depriving myself of because I take what my Dhamma friends tell me to > be the truth without testing it for myself. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Most important for us, I think, is to keep relinquishment at the forefront of the mind. --------------------------------------- > > I really think I should try meditating again. If I don't, the > attachment to the idea of meditating will still be with me. If I try, > I can find out for myself whether it brings benefits or not, and > either release the attachment by discarding meditation, or develop it > in a skillful way. The third possibility, that I'll take to > meditation in a subtly unskillful way that creates obstacles to true > mindfulness, is also a real possibility, of course. Quite possibly > the most likely result for > someone working without a teacher. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Why not start out doing a little, without giving it all that much thought? Take it lightly. -------------------------------------- > > > Yes, I think I should try over the holidays. There is too much > reading and too much thinking about Dhamma going on these days in this > head of mine. I won't expect it to bring insight, but I will expect it > to give my brain a break from generating stories in such a rampant > way. I have given up meditation in the past - and this was *before* I > joined this group and heard from others who also gave up meditation - > so I will be able to do so again if it is not for me. > > Anyways, congratulations, Howard. It would be ungenerous of anyone > to doubt that the meditation unfolded the way you say it did. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Well, it's almost always true that things as perceived by us didn't occur exactly that way. So, those who might think so, likely have some justification. Still, I'm not terribly out of touch with what goes on with "me". ;-) In any case, it was no big deal at all - just a small encouragement. ----------------------------------- > > Metta, > Phil > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39971 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? In a message dated 12/19/2004 1:11:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: Joop: No, not rare, see my quote. But not all suttas use the four- stage-model, and especially not the oldest suttas. You remember the many suttas in which the audience of the Buddha got arahats ? Metta Joop Hi Joop, Since I did my searching in Majjhima Nikaya, and the one example Christine cited was from the Digha Nikaya, and as far as I know those are supposed to contain the oldest Suttas, I don't see the basis for the claim of that scholar you were citing. What's important is not debating this issue, but to read the Suttas on a regular basis. (So that we don't need scholars to tell us (rightly or wrongly) what's in the Suttas.) TG 39972 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/19/04 9:35:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > > > The passage that follows, taken from Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Roots of > Existence'translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, has I think a direct > bearing on your comments relating to the question of dhammas bearing their > own characteristics. > > > > ******************* > > Sutta: "the exposition of the root of all things" (sabbadhamma) > > > > Cy: Here the word [dhamma] occurs in the sense of things endowed with a > > specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own > > characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkha.na"m dhaarentii ti > > dhammaa). > > > > Sub-Cy: "They bear their own characteristics": although there are no > > dhammas devoid of their own characteristics, this is still said for the > > purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with their specific > > natures devoid of such attributions as that of a "being" etc. ... And > > though there is no real distinction (between these dhammas and their > > characteristics), still, in order to facilitate understanding, the > > exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device > > (upacaaramatta). Or else they are borne, they are discerned, known, > > according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas (dhaariiyanti > > vaa yathaasabhaavato avadhaariyanti ~naayanatii ti dhammaa). > > ******************* > > > > Does this answer any of your concerns on these points? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The sub-cmy is encouraging. --------------------------------------- > > > > I have some comments on other parts of your post but will write separately > > and I have limited time at the moment. > > > > Jon > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39973 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two or four stages of liberation ? These four are mentioned in many sutta's, but not in all ! PhD-research on four Nikayas (AN, DN, MS, SN) of B.J. Manné of Utrecht University made clear also a two-stage model or a three-stage model is used. Especially the Sakadagamin (Once-returner) is given mimimal attention in the sutta's. Also passages devoted to defining the psychology or the mental state of the Anagamin (Non-returner) are rare; and the difference with another word of this stage (Opapatika) is vague. "The stage anagamin contradicts the basic buddhistteaching that enlightenment is attainable in the present lifetime. This discrepancy shows that this stage was invented later, and most likely after the time of the Buddha." She concludes that "the stages sotapanna and arahat can be regarded as pertaining to early buddhism. In the beginning, therefore, there were just two stages: that of the converts and those who had attained the goal. During the development of Buddhism the issue of rebirth came to be increasingly important, and with it, probably developing in parallet, the issue of wether liberation was attained during the lifetime or after death. ." My intuition is that this conclusion of Manne sounds logical and soteriological well. Getting a sotapanna in this life is in this way of reasoning not very very very difficult. Thousands or millions (it's difficult to count) human beings living in this moment (nearly 2005 CE) on this planet are sotapanna. (I'm afraid I'm not yet: the samyojana (fetter) of doubt/skepticism is still existing in me) Any comments ? Metta Joop 39974 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Tep (and Phil) - In a message dated 12/19/04 10:13:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > > Hello, howard and Phil -- > > I think it is always a great benefit for us to discuss meditation practices > in addition to Sila and Panna, since they are all related. Thank you for > frankly telling us about your interesting meditation experience. Please > allow me to ask you a number of questions in order to understand the > mental phenomena during that short meditation. I hope you'll forgive > me if you don't feel comfortable with any of these questions. > > 1. How would you describe your state of mind before the meditation > started? What did you do to prepare the mind, or to "condition" it, for > that wonderful result? ---------------------------------------- Howard: "Pleasant" result might be better. (Certainly less than "wonderful". ;-) Well, let's see: We were about to go out for the evening, and time was short. I sat for meditating in an already relaxed state, and knowing how little time there was, I was really free of expectation. --------------------------------------- > > 2. What would you call the mental quality, or mental state, that was > thought-free and with "great calm and great clarity" during those 10 > solid minutes? For example, did you have rapture (piti) or not?; did you > have strong mindfulness with equanimity (ubekkha)? Does "great > clarity" mean attainment of a vipassana-nana? If so, what kind of insight > knowledge was it? --------------------------------------- Howard: There was considerable ease, a calm rapture, and almost effortless attention and clarity, and *impersonal*. No - "great clarity" doesn't necessarily mean vipassana-nana, although I can't say that it wasn't that either. I don't know. The clarity could definitely have been greater, though - it could have been more "microscopic". In retrospect, I can see that. --------------------------------------- > > 3. The following 'standard questions'[AN IV.94], if you don't mind > answering them, will help me (and Phil) to fully understand your > meditation experience during the 10 minutes: > > 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle > down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How > should fabrications(citta-sankhara) be regarded? How should they be > investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt there are good standard answers to these "standard questions". But I don't have them. I don't claim anything about this particular mediation sitting more than to say that it "went well". For the most part, I would characterize it as having gone "on its own", without any "me" interfering! ;-) ------------------------------------- > > Thank you very, very much, Howard. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39975 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:18am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Dear Howard, You posted a good report. Experiential knowledge is always amazing unlike intellectual thinking and reasoning. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, all - A brief report: I had a short meditation this evening, just for 30 minutes. I settled down quickly, becoming quite calm, relaxed, and alert. About 10 minutes in, all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted, and a combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed, which "brought me out". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Settling down of all mental dirt causes such a mental state. Settling down happens because of conditions. I bred possible conditions. But they did not work. But when they worked without my involvement, I felt it was amazing. I did not count the minute. But that state last round about your case. Say it was roughly 10 minutes. Normally, I sit for a full hour every night. On some occasions, I sat up to 4 or 5 sessions. I was on practice in intersessional period. I found a bit strange when I saw the message like 'formal sitting' 'formal meditation' and discouraging of 'formal meditation'. The initial wish might have a good reason. But immature ones may think in the immature way and this might lead to loss of precious time. Howard, you said, 'all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted, and a combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed.' And you said that it brought you out. Yes. It seems like 'thinking stops'. Here I think 'thinking' should be defined to talk clearly. I also found this kind of mental state. I saw all very clearly. There was no 'I' and there was no seer. But what I saw was very clear. It was serene and stood with great clarity and persisted. That state was not rupa jhana. I mean it is not a jhanic state. But it can be equated with jhana. My opinion is that this state is in line with any of 8 jhanas in terms of clarity of mind but much more alert then all 8 states of jhana. I think you are talking 'thinking' to refer to 5 kinds of thinking; 1.sensuous thinking, 2.aversive thinking, 3.sluggish thinking, 4.restless thinking, 5.suspicious-tentative thinking. As there did not arise, you thought there was no thinking. But remember all mental states do have 7 cetasikas. Among them mental impulsion or javana states do have more cetasikas. They may be refered to as 'thinking'. This is the point where I want to put 'the definition of thinking'. Without 'attention' no mental state can arise. Is 'attention' thinking? Or isn't 'attention' thinking? You said, 'thinking resumed,'. My opinion is that you seem to be saying 'another mental activity arose'. As Nina said I do not worry whether I have progress or not. Because we cannot create conditions. Once I slipped into a mental state. I assumed it as a jhana state. But I did not sharpen it and instead I follow satipatthana. Why I said jhana is that I remembered 'a complete silence'. And I knew that mind state that it was working. Normally I am sensitive to sound. In a split second, I may hear ( remember that I hear ) up to 6 different sound objects. But at that time, there was a complete silence. No smell at all. I do not remember what was in my eye. I mean whether I saw darkness or dim-red or dim-pink light in my closed eyes. No taste was remember. Even touch was out of contact. At that time, I saw clearly. But that clarity is not like clarity of satipatthana, which is much more alert and active. You said you were brought out. Actually I think it was arising of another mental activity. So you were no more in your former mental state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: The thinking that brought me out was a conceptual understanding of what had been happening during the meditation. I realized that during the meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance, there were no "stories", and there were no conventional objects or things observed; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: but there was the very clear seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, this is real. As you were in mental activities, there were no cakkhuvinna cittas or eye-consciousness. But you described it as 'the very clear seeing of the ...' . Dhammacakkappavattana says 'cakkhu.m udapaadi, nanaa udapaadi, pannaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aloko udapaadi'. The Buddha mentioned all these as He saw. When He sat under the Bo tree, He closed His eyes and He was in mental activities and there is no chance to arise cakkhuvinnana cittas or eye-consciousness. But as The Buddha saw The Dhamma as if He was seeing with His physical eyes, He preached 'cakkhu.m udapaadi'. ''Seeing arises'. Other 4 words are also similar but much more meaningful than simple words. Nanaa udapaadi. Knowledge arises. This is also seeing with 'mind- eyes'. Pannaa udapaadi. Wisdom arises. This is also seeing with 'mind-eyes' but much much more penetratively. Vijjaa udapaadi. Penetration arises. This is also pannaa or wisdom and it is similar to 'seeing with mind-eyes'. But much much more powerful than ordinary seeing. Aloko udapaadi. Light arises. This is also the same. But descriptionwise this is the highest. Light arises mean darkness goes away. That darkness is avijja or moha. It goes away wihtout leaving any residual piece. I write these 5 words to explain on 'seeing with mind-eye very clearly'. I am not comparing you and The Buddha. The Buddha mentioned these 5 words with regard to 'suffering' 'cause of suffering' 'cessation of suffering' and 'way leading to cessation of suffering'. We are just talking on the matter that we reach some stage of mental clarity. I think once you attain such a mental state, it will become more ready to arise next time. But again, this will depend on conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Also, as I think back about it now, there was no sense at all of knowing subject - just the experiential flow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. But I think it will be better to say 'no sensuous things at all' because there is a mind-sense or dhammarammana. Yes. It is flowing. Amazing!! Once when I came out of such state, I was directed by myself to look at the exact present. This sounds like bookish knowledge, which Bhante Vimalaramsi would reject. But even though there is no 'I', the thought directed me to see at the very present and the present was seen and at the same time the flow was seen. How amazing!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Very interesting, this was. For too long of a while now, my meditations have been calm and reasonably clear when not bogged down by sloth & torpor, but nothing very interesting or promising - a lengthy period of apparent stagnation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not count any stagnation. I just follow diligently what The Buddha said in His teachings. I do not expect 'I must have progress' but just follow The Dhamma. Once I listed myself in Swan's list at triplegem just to see who sincerely would join. In real, different being may have different goal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: This evening's was the first sitting in a long time that had something a bit more to it. It was quite encouraging. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not snip out your favourite Sutra. When I presented in a continuous style of meditation, some denied it. But I was doing. Even when I am speaking, I am on practice. I am amazed at myself even though there is no self at all. When I speak, I see idea with my mind- eyes and even tougue movements, lip movements are noted just before they move. This is intersessional practice. You may call this 'informal' and sitting at night as 'formal meditation'. Both are equally good. I am still wondering why 'formal meditation is discouraged'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 39976 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/19/04 1:22:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: Dear Howard,> > > You posted a good report. Experiential knowledge is always amazing > unlike intellectual thinking and reasoning. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > =========================== Thank you for your detailed reply. (I am not copying your entire post here.) What you had to say about your own experiences is very interesting and well described. I will touch on a few points below. The first thing I want to comment on is your repeated use of the woed 'amazing' in discussing meditative experience. It is, indeed, amazing - especially when one sees first hand what is otherwise known only theoretically. What a difference direct observation makes! ------------------------- Htoo: Settling down of all mental dirt causes such a mental state. Settling down happens because of conditions. I bred possible conditions. But they did not work. But when they worked without my involvement, I felt it was amazing. ------------------------ Howard Reply: Yes, that is amazing. During long periods of apparent stagnation in one's practice, cultivation does go on, and conditions are set which eventually bear fruit, though usually very small fruit, like crab-apples! ;-) ------------------------ Htoo: Howard, you said, 'all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted, and a combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed.' And you said that it brought you out. Yes. It seems like 'thinking stops'. Here I think 'thinking' should be defined to talk clearly. I also found this kind of mental state. I saw all very clearly. There was no 'I' and there was no seer. But what I saw was very clear. It was serene and stood with great clarity and persisted. - - - - - - - - - - - - H: Yes. The same. - - - - - - - - - - - - That state was not rupa jhana. I mean it is not a jhanic state. But it can be equated with jhana. My opinion is that this state is in line with any of 8 jhanas in terms of clarity of mind but much more alert then all 8 states of jhana. - - - - - - - - - - - - H: I agree except with regard to the state being *more* alert. In my case, that was not so. My very limited jhanic experiences involved a clarity that was at *least* as great. --------------------------------------------- Htoo: Without 'attention' no mental state can arise. Is 'attention' thinking? Or isn't 'attention' thinking? You said, 'thinking resumed,'. My opinion is that you seem to be saying 'another mental activity arose'. ------------------------------------------- Howard Reply: The attention involved during the "peak period" of the sitting wasn't volitional - it just flowed. I don't consider it thinking. It was the resumption of a stream of concepts and (subtle) volitional processing of them that I consider to have been the thinking that resumed. Certainly it was the case that 'another mental activity arose'. ------------------------------------------- Htoo: Howard wrote: but there was the very clear seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of experience. Dear Howard, this is real. As you were in mental activities, there were no cakkhuvinna cittas or eye-consciousness. But you described it as 'the very clear seeing of the ...' . ------------------------------------------ Howard Reply: Actually, there was literal seeing - fluctuations of light and color went through my closed eyelids . ----------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not snip out your favourite Sutra. When I presented in a continuous style of meditation, some denied it. But I was doing. Even when I am speaking, I am on practice. I am amazed at myself even though there is no self at all. When I speak, I see idea with my mind- eyes and even tougue movements, lip movements are noted just before they move. This is intersessional practice. You may call this 'informal' and sitting at night as 'formal meditation'. - - - - - - - - - - - - H: I think that the ongoing meditation you speak of here is the most demanding. I commend you for having the ability to engage in that at the level you describe. This is the mode of "meditation" that Nina and some others here primarily practice, and I consider it very important, but alaso very difficult. - - - - - - - - - - - - Both are equally good. I am still wondering why 'formal meditation is discouraged'. - - - - - - - - - - - - H: I agree that both are good! In any case, all kusala action is good, including study and contemplation, conditioning the mind in a useful way. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39977 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (190) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas. 81 cittas are loki cittas or mundane consciousness and 8 cittas are lokuttara or supramundane consciousness. If these 8 lokuttara cittas arise in the power of 5 jhanas, lokuttara cittas will be in total 40 cittas. Then total cittas will be 121 cittas. A. Vedana classification on citta 1. 62 somanassa cittas or 62 consciousness with joy 2. 1 sukha citta or 1 consciousness with physical pleasure 3. 1 dukkha citta or 1 consciousness with physical displeasure/pain 4. 2 domanassa cittas or 2 consciousness with mental displeasure 5. 55 upekkha cittas or 55 consciousness with indifferent feeling ----- 121 total cittas B. Hetu classification on citta ( classification of roots ) 1. 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 rootless consciousness 2. 2 ekahetuka cittas or 2 single-rooted consciousness 3. 22 dvihetuka cittas or 22 double-rooted consciousness 4. 47 tihetuka cittas or 47 triple-rooted consciousness ------------ 89 total cittas C. Bhumi classification of cittas a) 89 total cittas 1. 54 kamavacara cittas or 54 sensuous-plane consciousness 2. 15 rupavacara cittas or 15 fine-material-plane consciousness 3. 12 arupavacara cittas or 12 immaterial-plane consciousness 4. 8 lokuttara cittas or 8 supramundane consciousness ---------- 89 total cittas b) 121 total cittas 1. 54 kamavacara cittas 2. 15 rupavacara cittas 3. 12 arupavacara cittas 4. 40 lokuttara cittas ( 8 lokuttara cittas >< 5 jhanas ) ----------- 121 total cittas D. Jati classification of cittas or classification by kind a) 89 total cittas 1. 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness 2. 21 kusala cittas or 21 wholesome consciousness 3. 36 vipaka cittas or 36 resultant consciousness 4. 20 kiriya cittas or 20 functional consciousness ------------ 89 total cittas b) 121 total cittas 1. 12 akusala cittas 2. 37 kusala cittas ( 17 loki kusala + 20 lokuttara kusala ) 3. 52 vipaka cittas ( 32 loki vipaka + 20 lokuttara vipaka ) 4. 20 kiriya cittas ------------- 121 total cittas E. Kicca classification on citta 1. 19 patisandhi cittas or 19 linking consciousness 2. 19 bhavanga cittas or 19 life-continuing consciousness 3. 2 avajjana cittas or 2 adverting consciousness ( panca and mano ) 4. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas or 2 eye-consciousness 5. 2 sotavinnana cittas or 2 ear-consciousness 6. 2 ghanavinnana cittas or 2 nose-consciousness 7. 2 jivhavinnana cittas or 2 tongue-consciousness 8. 2 kayavinnana cittas or 2 body-consciousness 9. 2 sampaticchana cittas or 2 receiving-consciousness 10. 3 santirana cittas or 3 investigating-consciousness( 2 u, 1 so ) 11. 1 votthapana citta or 1 determining-consciousness 12.55 javana cittas or 55 impulsing-consciousness(29 panca, 26 mano ) 13.11 tadarammana cittas or 11 retaining-consciousness(8 mahavi,3 san) 14.19 cuti cittas or 19 last-living consciousness or dying cons ----- 141 - ( overlapping cittas ) = 89 cittas Overlapping cittas are 19 patisadhis, 19 bhavangas, 1 manodvaravajjana, 11 tadarammanas ( somanassa santirana is to be re- added ), and 3 santiranas altogether 53 cittas. 1 somanassa santirana is to be re-added because it does not include in patisandhi,bhavanga,and cuti cittas. So there are 52 overlapping cittas. 141 - 52 = 89 total cittas. F. Multifunctional classification on cittas 1. 2 pancakiccaka cittas ( 2 upekkha santirana cittas )/5 functions 2. 8 catukiccaka cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas )/ 4 functions 3. 9 tikiccaka cittas(5rupavipaka and 4 arupavipaka cittas)/3functions 4. 2 dukiccaka cittas( 1 somanasa santirana, 1 manodvaravajjana citta) 5.68 ekakiccaka cittas( 3 manodhatu, 10 dvipancavinnana, 55 javanas ) ------- 89 total cittas G. More classifications are coming.. These are for later reference. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39978 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Dear Howard, I snipped out all except the following paragraph because I agree all you replied. But I have something to say on the following. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard Reply: The attention involved during the "peak period" of the sitting wasn't volitional - it just flowed. I don't consider it thinking. It was the resumption of a stream of concepts and (subtle) volitional processing of them that I consider to have been the thinking that resumed. Certainly it was the case that 'another mental activity arose'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, there are 5 khandhas. 4 khandhas are namakkhandhas. Apart from vedana cetasika and sanna cetasika all other 50 cetasikas are included in sankharakkhandha. But you said, '..wasn't volitional'. I see 'volitional' here as sankharakkhandha. Thought is not just confined to cetana or volition. 1. attention(manasikara) is a part of thought/sankhara 2. contact(phassa) is a part of thought/sankhara 3. volition(cetana) is a part of thought/sankhara 4. one-pointedness(ekaggata) is a part of thought 5. and many other Only in nirodha samapatti, all thought process cease completely. This is my understanding. Am I wrong here,Howard? With much respect, Htoo Naing 39979 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/19/04 2:37:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Only in nirodha samapatti, all thought process cease completely. > > This is my understanding. Am I wrong here,Howard? > > =================== I don't know! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39980 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (191) Dear Dhamma Friends, Before going to the next classification on citta ( G. ), the following dhammas should be borne in mind so that there is a clear base to build up. There are nama and rupa as conditioned dhamma. For those who much more readily understand rupa dhamma than nama dhamma, it is better to study dhammas on dvara. Dvara means 'door'. Consciousness has to arise with the aid of these doors. They are called sense-doors or dvara. There are 6 dvaras or 6 sense-door. 5 dvaras or 5 doors are all rupa dhamma and the 6th dvara or the 6th door is nama dhamma. 5 rupa and 1 nama. So dvara dhammas are more suited to those who have better understanding on rupa rather than nama. There are 6 dvaras or chadvara. They are 1. cakkhu-dvara or eye-sense-door 2. sota-dvara or ear-sense-door 3. ghana-dvara or nose-sense-door 4. jivha-dvara or tongue-sense-door 5. kaya-dvara or body-sense-door 6. mano-dvara or mind-sense-door. Cakkhu-dvara here is the rupa which is cakkhu pasada. Sota-dvara here is the rupa which is sota pasada. Ghana-dvara here is the rupa called ghanappasada rupa. Jivha-dvara here is the rupa called jivhappasada rupa. Kaya-dvara here is the rupa which is kayappasada. Mano-dvara is not a rupa dhamma. It is a nama dhamma. In a given life, the whole life starts with patisandhi citta and ends with cuti citta. In between are bhavanga cittas. An example of citta flow_PBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBC_ P for Patisandhi citta and C for Cuti citta. In between are B for bhavanga cittas. This flow is when there is no vithi cittas at all. But when there arise vithi cittas, the flow will be like _BBBBBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBB_ B for Bhavanga citta, M for Manodvaravajjana citta, J for Javana cittas, T for Tadarammana cittas. B are original cittas. So M-to-T is like a block of vithi-cittas. This block of mano-vithi cittas comes in through the door of B for Bhavanga citta just before M for Manodvaravajjana citta. Or Bhavangupaccheda citta can be called as mano-dvara or mind-sense-door. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39981 From: Egbert Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 0:54pm Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Good for you , Howard !!! Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A brief report: I had a short meditation this evening, just for 30 > minutes. I settled down quickly, becoming quite calm, relaxed, and alert. About > 10 minutes in, all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted, and a > combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed, which > "brought me out". 39982 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A brief report: I had a short meditation this evening, just for 30 > minutes. Friend Howard, Congratulations on the worthwhile meditation experience and thank you for sharing it. Your description of your experience reminded me of the Upanisa Sutta, which I will quote in part. Seems that you are on the right track!: Upanisa Sutta While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said: "The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs. "The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply. "Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply. "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply. "Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply. "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply. "Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply. "Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply. "Tranquillity, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' should be the reply. "Rapture, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' should be the reply. "Joy, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' should be the reply. "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply…. Metta, James ps. Keep in mind that this meditation experience too was impermanent and it can never be recaptured. Don't try, even though it was a success. Just let the experiences come as they come and go as they go; they are all different, impermanent, and non-self. 39983 From: Egbert Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:54pm Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Phil, Thank you for sharing with us all. > > I'm aflood in an ocean of stories these days, both from my own > life and from all the suttas I've been reading. I can be aware of > all this thinking, and am aware of it, but it's so effusive, so > rampant, so raging that > I can hardly feel detached and I certainly don't have any control > over it. The desire to meditate in order to try to impose > order is quite strong, but I have not taken that step yet - I may > during my upcoming holiday. Yes, wrong view of self will be involved > in trying to impose order, but there are times I think "so be it." > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. No need to attack the foundations of wrong views of self when the current view is from the 30th floor. In fact, better not to. Self- views are in the basement, and if you manage to weaken those foundations with the whole superstructure still in place, things get very messy. The Buddha saw the disadvantage even in consciousness. But we labour where we are. And that's where the disadvantage is to be found. With regards to your naturally arising resolution, good on you, Phil!!!!! Kind Regards Herman 39984 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, James - In a message dated 12/19/04 4:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > > A brief report: I had a short meditation this evening, just > for 30 > >minutes. > > Friend Howard, > > Congratulations on the worthwhile meditation experience and thank > you for sharing it. Your description of your experience reminded me > of the Upanisa Sutta, which I will quote in part. Seems that you > are on the right track!: > Upanisa Sutta > > While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said: > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the material in that sutta is more than just a little grandiose to associate with my meditation. ;-) But if there are elements that remind you of that sutta, that's fine. What really "excited" me about the sitting was that I saw it as experiential verification of what some might call the "paramattha-dhamma nature" of reality, so that the experience was such that the conceptual "surface structure" (or overlay) was absent. I think this has actually been experienced many times by me while meditating, but rarely as clearly and calmly, and not with the after-the-fact understanding of what had actually transpired. Basically, it was just a "very good meditation," a saddha-producing one. ---------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > ps. Keep in mind that this meditation experience too was impermanent > and it can never be recaptured. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: One hundred percent correct! I've been told that before, by someone who I think really knows whereof he speaks - not that you do not! ;-), with regard to previous "experiences" of mine. First of all, "special" states or experiences are typically not all that important. As I mentioned before, one very "good" meditation may be followed by a hundred "terrible" ones. And who is so certain, really, before the entire card game is completed, which meditations are really the trump cards, and which are of little value! We may not know until the game is close to completion. What is important, I think, is the ongoing cultivation of the mind, a process often quite plodding and drab ;-). When the mind is well cultivated and one dispenses with expectations, then useful events will occur as conditions allow. The surest way to sabotage the process is by craving, clinging, and pushing. ------------------------------------------------- Don't try, even though it was a > > success. Just let the experiences come as they come and go as they > go; they are all different, impermanent, and non-self. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed! A beautiful little bird that alights on one's hand will just be crushed to death if held too hard. Letting go is the key. Nothing can be held onto at all, in fact. Hey, that reminds me of the following: ______________________________ The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it -- Omar Khayyam ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39985 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi Suravira, You wrote: ------------------ > Within your diatribe there exists a deep and strong fundamentalism. Fundamentalism has historically harmed humanity in ways that continue to re-define man's inhumanity to man. There is not now, and there never has been anything of even remedial value in fundamentalism. Underlying fundamentalism is hatred, under hatred is anger, under anger is fear, and under fear is ignorance. > ----------- Well said, and entirely accurate. I kid myself that I can get away with 'excessive language' occasionally. But there is no excuse for it. In this thread, Sarah replied to a message from you, TG replied to Sarah's message, and I replied to TG's message. Now you have replied to my message, and it is a bit hard to see what is being attributed to whom. I should quickly take back what I said about K Sujin and her students. It is purely from my own perspective that they (however indirectly) are waging a war on charlatanism. I have never seen anything written by any of them on that subject. They are concerned only with studying and practising Dhamma. My first 25 years of Dhamma study followed the ususal pattern - reading modern-day populist accounts of the Dhamma and Buddhist meditation. Even then, I was a fundamentalist - wanting to dissociate myself from any hint of religiosity and superstition. I tried several mindfulness techniques and finally settled on one that I had adapted to suit my needs. Of course, I believed I had discovered the real method taught by the Buddha. :-) When I found DSG and learned about the Abhidhamma and the Ancient Commentaries, I felt I had begun my Dhamma studies for the first time. I felt the previous 25 years had taught me nothing! This may have led to some recriminations and ill feelings - akusala but understandable in the circumstances. To put a charitable slant on my anti-guru-fake-meditation-master fundamentalism, I am only trying to help others to avoid the mistakes I made and wasting the time I wasted. Assuming we are still on speaking terms, I will return to the beginning of your message. I had written to TG: ---------------------------- > > I don't think you are using "false views" (micchi-ditthi) in the way > it is used in the Tipitaka. Which false views do you have in mind > when you say they are not eradicated at Stream-entry? > > ----------------------------- I think you missed the point of this. You listed the false views that are eradicated at Stream-entry: I wanted the ones that are (supposedly) not. Then you responded to a number of points made by Sarah, TG and myself, but they all seem to be attributed to one person. I will own up to the boorish, opinionated bits, but perhaps we should start the discussion again. :-) Ken H 39986 From: Philip Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Herman > Thank you for sharing with us all. Thanks. It's helpful to get it down in words now and then though. > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. I thought last night that I could be encouraged by knowing that my sensitivity to how much thinking I'm doing is a good thing. In the past I wouldn't have been aware of it as an unskillful thing. In the past I would be reading these suttas and feeling pride about how much wisdom I was aquiring through them. Now I know that there is just a lot of thinking, though seeds of insight are possibly also being planted. Probably being planted. > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. I know! There is a lot of that, isn't there? It *can* be a good thing. I find that things that have been raised on the list can help to condition small insights in daily life. Of course they can. We've all experienced that. But as you say, usually this "why didn't I say this instead of that?" or even replaying with pride good points one made. That can be wholesome as well, but usually isn't. Then of course there are the times I am irritated by someone's posts and carry that with me as well. But it's not as common as it used to be. > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. Hmm. Easier said than done. In my case it is so difficult to stop myself from devouring suttas. Reading them at a patient pace and reflecting on each one is good. But I don't and can't do that. So the Dhamma inferno gets fed more and more. It's easier to let go of unwholesome thoughts related to troubles in daily life by reflecting on the worldy concerns. > No need to attack the foundations of wrong views of self when the > current view is from the 30th floor. In fact, better not to. Self- > views are in the basement, and if you manage to weaken those > foundations with the whole superstructure still in place, things get > very messy. I have been using a similar metaphor these days, but the foundation I think of is what goes on with the unwholesome roots of desire, aversion and delusion. The book I read "the Roots of Good and Evil" was very good indeed and Nina suggested that I share some of it with the group. That would be a good exercise to stay in the foundation. > The Buddha saw the disadvantage even in consciousness. But we labour where we are. And that's where the disadvantage is to be found. Well, to tell the truth I've lost you here, Herman, but I think we'd both agree that not trying to figure out exactly what you mean what be a good example of letting go of thinking! This is not to say that you haven't made a good point - just that I will not try to figure it out now. > With regards to your naturally arising resolution, good on you, > Phil!!!!! Thanks for your encouragememnt. The above about letting go of fiuguring out the point you were making was one of those naturally arising resolutions. Like you said earier, wisdom guides us to let go of thinking now and then. Patience and faith that that will continue to happen. On the other hand, wisdom will also let us know when it is time to bear down hard on something we haven't figured out. Metta, Phil 39987 From: Philip Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:02am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hello again, Howard > I realized that during the > meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance This is one thing that caught my eye the first time I read your post, but didn't ask about last time as I got caught up in my own story. Could you expand very briefly on this "were held in abeyance?" By a kind of will power? As a result of concentration? And does "held in abeyance" mean that they subsided, or were cut off completely? It would seem to me that the concepts would keep arising, but could be let go again and again. But, as I said before, you are talking about a degree of concentration that I am not at all familiar with. And how can you be sure that when "there was the very clear seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of experience" that there was not concepts involved here? How does one know the difference between directly experience a bodily sensation, say, and thinking about it? Indeed, how can one say one has experienced a bodily sensation without having thought about it? I know that you say the conceptual thinking related to this came about after the concetration lifted, but still I wonder how you can be sure concepts weren't involved throughout. I don't mean this to be taking back what I said about "it would be engenerous to doubt that the meditation unfolded as you said" but you know I am curious about meditation and am asking in an interested way, not in a doubting way. Metta, Phil 39988 From: Philip Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:21am Subject: Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hello all There is a well-known sutta (SN XXXXVII.7) about a monkey who gets trapped in the monkey trap through his foolishness. It warns of the "five cords of sensual pleasure" but I wonder why it isn't six? The mind is considered a sense door in Dhamma. Isn't it the mind that gets us into the most trouble? Doesn't wise attention to whatever sense objects arise through the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense circumvent unwholesomenss that is likely to arise through the mind? Is it because that while this wise attention to sense objects happens for enlightened people, for worldlings it is best to assume that the five cords will lead to trouble, that wise attention is unlikely to arise at the mind door? And then there are other times that one is aware of the opportunity to enjoy thoughts in a sensual way, thoughts that have arisen not directly in response to sensory objects, those daydreams of past and future that arise in a conditioned way suddenly, and which often offer us an opportunity to choose (or at least seem to choose) whether to indulge in them or not. (Again, wise attention will be involved or not involved.) Daydreaming seems to be a form of sensual pleasure through the mind door. Why doesn't this and other suttas talk of six cords of sensual pleasure? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 39989 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi "Suravira", Are you the same "Suravira" referred to as "Kalyanamitta Suravira...a Willow Oak Lineage Holder, founder and spiritual director of the Willow Oak Buddhist Center, and...its resident minister" at http://deerparksangha.org/aboutus.htm? As you seem to be here to instruct, I thought it might be useful if you could tell us a little about your past, your ordination(?) and how you've come to conflate Mahayana and Theravada ideas. A Google search ( http://www.google.com/search?q=%22charles+B.+Clifford%22+dharma&hl=en&lr=&filter=0 ) displays a list of (apparantly defunct) web pages copyrighted 'Charles B. Clifford, M.Sc.'--would you be that same Mr. Clifford? Personally I find it helpful when contributors check their noms de plume at the door, so to speak, and communicate on a collegial basis. I believe we may have a few other M.Sc.'s on the list who might be interested in your academic background, too. Thanks for your contributions and best wishes to your (and our) continuing education in the Buddhadhamma. mike 39990 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Howard, You wrote: ----------------------- > That was VERY well said!! I really like it a lot. ----------------------- Thanks, Howard, it's nice of you to say so. ------------------------------- H: > Of course I could add on a lot of stuff about how it is important to know what is what first hand, and not just intellectually, -------------------------------- That's very wise, I'm sure, but I will argue the point anyway. :-) In a strict manner of speaking, intellectual knowledge is sufficient. Strictly speaking, right intellectual understanding is kusala citta with panna. Any other, so-called, understanding would be akusala with lobha and miccha-ditthi, so we are not referring to that when we talk about 'knowing the Dhamma intellectually.' I'd like to quote a sutta that says; "He who understands the Dhamma intellectually, practises Dhamma. And he who practises Dhamma penetrates the Dhamma." But, I'm not sure there is such a sutta. :-) ------------------ H: > and also how critically important it is to see directly that the paramattha dhammas aren't all that "paramattha", being empty of self-existence, fully dependent for their very "life" on other equally foam-like phenomena, fleeting, and completely unworthy of grasping, even painful. But I won't say any of that ;-)), because I really do want to emphasize that I truly like what you had to say! ----------------- Thank you again. And thank you for not saying what you just said. :-) In return, I will not say "Panna has to know what it is looking for. If we tell panna that paramattha dhammas are 'not all that paramattha' - that there is just a Nagarjunaian flux that can be interpreted as containing dhammas if we feel inclined to interpret it that way - then panna will not know what it is looking for. And it will never know a paramattha dhamma." ------------- H: > Hmm - Herman, there was a very old film entitled "How Green is My Valley". Maybe they should produce a new film entitled "How paramattha are My Dhammas"! ;-)) ------------- I'm sure Herman will admit they are absolutely absolute realities. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 12/19/04 1:13:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > H: >Believe me, your surfing body will die, regardless of how > > parramattha your dhammas are :-) > > -------------------------- > > > > :-) Right understanding of the former leads to happy rebirth: right > > understanding of the latter leads to Nibbana. > > > ======================= > Ken, I can't let this go by without commenting on it: 39991 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Phil - In a message dated 12/19/04 7:04:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello again, Howard > > >I realized that during the > >meditation, all concepts were held in abeyance > > This is one thing that caught my eye the first time I read > your post, but didn't ask about last time as I got caught up in > my own story. > > Could you expand very briefly on this "were held in abeyance?" > By a kind of will power? As a result of concentration? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No. Simply no concepts arose, at least not at the threshhold of awareness. --------------------------------------- And > > does "held in abeyance" mean that they subsided, or were cut off > completely? It would seem to me that the concepts would keep arising, > but could be let go again and again. --------------------------------------- Howard: None were experienced. ---------------------------------------- But, as I said before, you are > > talking about a degree of concentration that I am not at all familiar > with. > > And how can you be sure that when "there was the very clear > seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal > sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and > ceasing in a stream of experience" that there was not concepts > involved here? > --------------------------------------- Howard: I can *not* be sure. But none was evident. There was no characterizing going on, no naming, no evident thinking. I'm not saying that sa~nn~a was inoperative, however. There was no mistakng of body sense from ear sense, for example. ------------------------------------ How does one know the difference between directly > > experience a bodily sensation, say, and thinking about it? Indeed, how > can one say one has experienced a bodily sensation without having > thought about it? I know that you say the conceptual thinking related > to this came about after the concetration lifted, but still I wonder > how you can be sure concepts weren't involved throughout. > -------------------------------- Howard: I cannot be sure. But I think not. (That is - I think that I thought not! ;-)) -------------------------------- > > I don't mean this to be taking back what I said about "it would be > engenerous to doubt that the meditation unfolded as you said" but you > know I am curious about meditation and am asking in an interested way, > not in a doubting way. > ------------------------------- Howard: There's no problem with doubting. I'm not certain, myself. To be certain I'd have to be either a saint or a fool! ;-)) ------------------------------- > > Metta, > Phil > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39992 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: Re:Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Sarah, Wonderful, Sarah, thanks. I respect BB's position and admire his open-mindedness and courtesy. He seems an excellent bhikkhu to me and his correspondence seems to exemplify mudutaa among other sobhana cetasikas... mike >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "sarah abbott" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 2:58 AM >> Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple >> > >> > Dear Friends, >> > >> > Yesterday I received a reply from B.Bodhi to the letter I copied to >> the >> > list recently: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39500 [Ven. Bodhi]: >> > Your comments represent a "synthetic view," that is, an interpretation >> > that synthesizes sutta, Abhidhamma, and commentaries, along with the >> mode >> > of interpreting these developed by K. Sujin. In my paper, I wanted to >> > confine myself to the strict standpoint of the Nikayas. To do so is >> not to >> > devalue the contributions the other sources make to our understanding, >> but >> > to limit one's sources to those that can reasonably be assigned to the >> > earliest period of Buddhist textual composition. On that basis I do >> not >> > see any text that explicitly admits the possibility of attaining the >> last >> > two stages of realization, non-return and arahantship, without the >> first >> > jhana as a minimum. >> > >> > One can find ways to affirm such attainments as rational >> possibilities, as >> > you have done, but to do so one has to apply to the texts certain >> > presuppositions and modes of interpretation that cannot be derived >> from >> > the suttas themselves. I wouldn't reject them, and in fact I respect >> the >> > commentarial recognition of a dry-visioned arahant. This type of >> arahant >> > is also admitted in the North Indian Abhidharma system, under the name >> > "dry-wisdom arhat"; apparently, since they both use the word 'dry', >> they >> > likely derive from a common source and thus perhaps go back to a >> period >> > before the two systems became divided. But the fact remains that such >> a >> > type does not explicitly appear either under that name or under some >> > synonymous term or description in the Pali Nikayas. >> > >> > There are also no texts that say that the sotapannas and sakadagamis >> don't >> > have any jhana. This, again, is a conclusion that has to be derived by >> > reasoning from the texts. But the fact that the suttas do not >> routinely >> > ascribe jhanas to them gives strong support to this conclusion, as do >> > certain other considerations militate (particularly, the fact that >> they >> > take rebirth in the human and deva worlds, which seems unlikely for >> one >> > who has mastered the jhanas). 39993 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,125 Htoo: "Which one do you prefer from 2 alternatives of translation of the meaning of 'Visuddhimagga'; 'path of purity' and 'path of purification'?" Hi Htoo, I prefer "purification" over "purity" because purification is a process while purity is a state or accomplishment. However, each of the seven stages of purification could be said to be an accomplishment. As you know, the idea of dividing the path into 7 stages comes from the Rathavinita Sutta, MN 24 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html There it is said that one accomplishes each stage in turn before going on to the next. It is also said one abandons each stage before going on to the next. Ven. Matara Sri ~Nanarama writes, "In the case of the seven purifications, the purity implied is reckoned in terms of the elimination of the unwholesome factors opposed to each purification. 'Purification of Virtue' implies the purity obtained through the abstinence from bodily and verbal misconduct as well as from wrong likelihood. 'Purification of Mind' is the0purity resulting from cleansing the mind of attachment, aversion, inertia, restlessness and conflict, and from securing it against their influx. 'Purification of View' is brought about by dispelling the distortions of wrong views. 'Purification by Overcoming Doubt' is purity through the conquest of all doubts concerning the pattern of samsaric existence. 'Purification of Knowledge and Vision of What is Path and Not-Path' signifies the purity attained by passing beyond the alluring distractions which arise in the course of insight meditation. 'Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way' is the purity resulting from the temporary removal of defilements which obstruct the path of practice. And lastly, 'Purification by Knowledge and Vision' is the complete purity gained by eradicating defilements together with their underlying tendencies by means of the supramundane paths. Purification by Knowledge and Vision consists of the knowledges of the four paths--the path of Streamentry, the path of Once-return, the path of Non-return and the path of Arahantship." See also Vism.I,5 Herein, 'purification' should be understood as nibbana, which being devoid of all stains, is utterly pure. 'The path of purification' is the path to that purification; it is the means of approach that is called the 'path'. Vism.XIV,32 How is it [understanding, panna] developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the 'soil' of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its 'roots', while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the 'trunk'. Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in brief.The detail is as follows. L: This is where we are now in chapter XIV, "learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' ", the aggregates, bases, etc., preparatory to *studying* the purification of view. What are your ideas on the best way to translate "Visuddhimagga"? Larry 39994 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/19/04 7:49:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I'd like to quote a sutta that says; "He who understands the Dhamma > intellectually, practises Dhamma. And he who practises Dhamma > penetrates the Dhamma." But, I'm not sure there is such a sutta. :-) > ================== LOL! Yeah, I also often find myself in the position of wanting to quote suttas that I just "know" must exist but somehow manage to keep themselves maddeningly elusive! Mara must have these really good hiding places!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39995 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Howard > > Congratulations on this good meditation experience, Howard. I > remember reading about 6 months ago about your determination to make > progress and feeling mudita, and I feel it again. > >> Anyways, congratulations, Howard. It would be ungenerous of anyone > to doubt that the meditation unfolded the way you say it did. > > ===== Dear Phil, Thanks for writing this, I was just going to make some comments, now I know not too. Robert 39996 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Phil: "Why doesn't this and other suttas talk of six cords of sensual pleasure?" Hi Phil, I've been thinking about your question and here are a few ideas. Desire for mind-door objects is usually, but not always, listed separately as a matter of views (ditthi), personality view, and "desire" for jhana states (rupa raga, arupa raga) and "process" or "becoming" (bhavaraga). Additionally, the words kama and raga are said to be synonyms for lobha but I think kama and raga are more limited and pertain to a certain kind of enjoyment or pleasure, as you said, while lobha is more general, including both desire because of not having and enjoyment. As such, the object of desire because of lack or want has to be a concept while enjoyment is enjoyment of a present reality, either sensuous (kama) or spiritual (raga), imo. Ironically, kama is somewhat of a misperception as we discussed a few weeks ago as it is due more to accumulations than to the feeling that accompanies sense consciousness, except body consciousness. Larry 39997 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/19/04 10:35:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Phil, > Thanks for writing this, I was just going to make some comments, now > I know not too. > Robert > ======================= Well, I for one would very much appreciate your comments, Robert, in whatever direction they may go. This is because I always value your perspective, whether it matches mine or not, and also because I have nothing whatsoever "riding" on how I or anyone else views that particular meditation experience. What I found most of value in the experience was seeing some of the "paramattha-dhamma theory" apparently confirmed by my personal experience. Whether I was off in my interpretation of events or not I really can't say, but if was, well, so be it. ;-) So, in any case, I look forward to hearing further from you, if you are so inclined. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39998 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation --- Thanks Howard, This is very kind of you, it allows me to comment freely. Actually nothing negative to say - more of a 'let's wait and see'. I will try to write later tonight but first perhaps you could compare this experience with the one where you wrote on TG "My experience has been evaluated by Leigh Brassington, a student of Ayya Khema, as probably a shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas. I *have* read that the jhanas are, with the exception of piti, purely mind-door experiences. But I cannot say as a general fact that the jhanas are basically mind-door only. All I can tell you is that was my experience." (I see this thread is now also on TG so I think it is Ok to bring in this point here). I am assuming that the one we are discussing today was quite different from the previous one? RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 12/19/04 10:35:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > Dear Phil, > > Thanks for writing this, I was just going to make some comments, now > > I know not too. > > Robert > > > ======================= > Well, I for one would very much appreciate your comments, Robert, in > whatever direction they may go. This is because I always value your > perspective, whether it matches mine or not, and also because I have nothing whatsoever > "riding" on how I or anyone else views that particular meditation experience. > What I found most of value in the experience was seeing some of the > "paramattha-dhamma theory" apparently confirmed by my personal experience. > Whether I was off in my interpretation of events or not I really can't say, but if > was, well, so be it. ;-) > So, in any case, I look forward to hearing further from you, if you > are so inclined. > > With metta, > Howard > 39999 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi Mike (& Suravira), I'll be glad to hear anything more from Suravira too of course. But I'd just like to mention that he has made it clear before that he is Charles Clifford, mentioned the website and reasons for it, the meaning of his (new) name and also more on his understanding of Mahayana/Theravada. (I just mention this in case there's any suggestion that Suravira hasn't been 'upfront' with us here). Whilst waiting for anything more that Suravira would like to add/discuss, you may like to look at these brief messages I just fished out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22967 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33017 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32676 I agree that when someone takes a long break from the list that it would be helpful if they'd introduce themselves again or remind us, as Tep did recently;-). Suravira, whilst looking for these posts, I see we also discussed before the eradication of all wrong views at Stream Entry and I quoted from Nyantiloka's dictionary on this;-). I'll see if there's anything more to add later. Thx for all your other comments - plenty to discuss. Perhaps Mike will also help us;-). Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, thx for posting your appreciation of BB's kind comments - I hope you have a chance to meet him one day too. ======================================== --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi "Suravira", > > Are you the same "Suravira" referred to as "Kalyanamitta Suravira...a > Willow > Oak Lineage Holder, founder and spiritual director of the Willow Oak > Buddhist Center, and...its resident minister" at > http://deerparksangha.org/aboutus.htm? > > As you seem to be here to instruct, I thought it might be useful if you > could tell us a little about your past, your ordination(?) and how > you've > come to conflate Mahayana and Theravada ideas. > > A Google search ( > http://www.google.com/search?q=%22charles+B.+Clifford%22+dharma&hl=en&lr=&filter=0 > > ) displays a list of (apparantly defunct) web pages copyrighted 'Charles > B. > Clifford, M.Sc.'--would you be that same Mr. Clifford?