40200 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 83- Volition/cetanaa (m) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] > ***** > Kusala kamma which is bhåvanå comprises studying and teaching > Dhamma, samatha, tranquil meditation, and vipassanå, the > development of right understanding of realities. The development > of right understanding is the highest form of kusala kamma because > it leads to the eradication of ignorance. When ignorance has been > eradicated there are no more conditions for rebirth in a next life, > one is freed from the cycle of birth and death. > > We have accumulated different degrees of kusala kamma and > akusala kamma and they are capable of producing their appropriate > results when there is opportunity for it. We may be inclined to > think that the term "accumulation" only pertains to kamma, but > not only kamma is accumulated, also tendencies to kusala and > akusala are accumulated. When one steals, akusala kamma is > accumulated which is capable of producing vipåka later on. > > However vipåka is not the only effect of this unwholesome deed. > Also the tendency to stealing is accumulated and thus there are > conditions that one steals again. We have the potential in us for > all kinds of bad deeds and when there is an opportunity akusala > cetanå can motivate a bad deed through body, speech and mind. > ***** > [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hello Sarah and others at dsg. Its the last sentence that I wish to comment on. I remembered having a discussion with you Sarah, in Gangtok, about how, even if we think we lead basically good lives, this is no guarantee that there won't be conditions, even in this life, to do something drastic. Remembering some of the nasty things I've done to various people in this very existence, I sometimes wonder of what I'm really capable. It isn't of much benefit to worry about it tho; and I have just realised that I'm far less concerned these days about the results of my past bad deeds. What is done has gone, and even if I make all the 'good' resolutions to 'behave', these habits persist eg. a swear word slips out when I want to impress a point - even if in jest, not anger. Maybe the up-side of my being aware of my bad habits could be that there are lots of opp9ortunities to refrain, however, this refraining is conditioned I believe, by accummulations. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 40201 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Htoo and all, I've been away for a day and just catching up on this discussion. It seems to have devolved into the question can past or future object be a paramattha dhamma. I must say I agree with Howard that to say yes sounds like a Sarvastivada solution which is essentially eternalistic. My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next. So the object of 5-door javana, for example, would be votthapana (determining consciousness) and the object of a following mind-door adverting would be the preceding 5-door javana or possibly preceding tadarammana. And we just conventionally say the object of all this is the original rupa. There is still a problem of past informing present which I don't see how to resolve, even if we use the "concept" solution. Maybe we could just say "it's magic". ;-)) Furthermore, I'm experimenting with the idea that consciousness _is_ its object in experience. There is a certain appeal to this, but also problems. Larry 40202 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (205) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta Puggala or beings are 12 kinds. 1. Arahatta phalatthana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthana puggala 3. anagami phalatthana puggala 4. anagami maggatthana puggala 5. sakadagami phalatthana puggala 6. sakadagami maggatthana puggala 7. sotaapatti phalatthana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthana puggala These 8 puggalas are called 'atthapurisa puggala esa bhagavato savaka sangho'. They are real Sanghas. Phalatthana is made up of 'phala' and 'thana'. Thana means place. So this being is at the place of arahatta phala. All these 8 people are ariyas. 1. arahatta phalatthana puggala is also known as 'asikkha puggala'. They are no more candidate. They are no more student. They all have atained arahatta magga and become arahats. From 2 to 8 are candidates ariya but they have not yet attained arahatta magga nana. They are called 'sikkha puggala' or 'candidate' or 'student'. 9. puthujjana tihetuka puggala ( has potential to attain magga nana) 10.puthujjana dvihetuka puggala( no potential to attain nibbana) 11.putthujjana sugati ahetuka puggala (blinds and the deaf) 12.puthujjana duggati ahetuka puggala ( apaya beings ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40203 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Larry, Howard and All, There are many many areas that we do not understand. Another question is 1. Can 'newly arisen citta' take itself as its object? This question was asked at triplegem long time ago. regarding citta A and citta B, I remember dhammaarammana. There are 6 kinds of dhammaarammana or mind-object. They are 1. 5 pasada rupas 2. 16 sukhuma rupas 3. 89 cittas 4. 52 cetasikas 5. 1 nibbana and 6. 0 pannatti There is no paramattha dhamma called panatti. So I gave it '0'. But pannatti can serve as an object in the power of paramattha dhamma. Arammana or objects have to be pancaarammana or dhammaarammana. Here 89 cittas are included in dhammaarammana. They are definitely not pannatti. So how can they be the object of citta? Why are they in dhammaarammana if cittas cannot be object of another citta? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Htoo and all, > > I've been away for a day and just catching up on this discussion. It > seems to have devolved into the question can past or future object be a > paramattha dhamma. I must say I agree with Howard that to say yes sounds > like a Sarvastivada solution which is essentially eternalistic. > > My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next. So the > object of 5-door javana, for example, would be votthapana (determining > consciousness) and the object of a following mind-door adverting would > be the preceding 5-door javana or possibly preceding tadarammana. And we > just conventionally say the object of all this is the original rupa. > There is still a problem of past informing present which I don't see how > to resolve, even if we use the "concept" solution. Maybe we could just > say "it's magic". ;-)) > > Furthermore, I'm experimenting with the idea that consciousness _is_ its > object in experience. There is a certain appeal to this, but also > problems. > > Larry 40204 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is time ? Hi Joop, We've been discussing for years the very delicate question, "is impermanence real". Admittedly my proposal is a bit of a stretch because if the water element is time it would have to cross the insurmountable barrier between nama and rupa. Maybe there are two times, rupa time and nama time, with nama time being a matter of that mysterious word "sankhara". Larry 40205 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,126 "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." (SN XXXVI.3) Hi Phil, You asked how one could tell when a sutta is talking about path consciousness. Nina pointed out the pattern "he is not aware...he is aware". Another clue is any talk of tendencies (anusaya). Tendencies are always present until enlightenment. Larry 40206 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/25/2004 12:10:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, however. Metta, Sarah Hi Sarah No agreement at all. For I consider a "view" of something to be the way it is being seen, perceived, realized, interpreted, etc. If the "view" contains delusion, then its a false view. Period. The only thing a streamwinner has gotten rid of is the gross "belief" that that these things are self. They still have the "view" of them as being "mine," "I am." etc. That's still a self view and that's a false view. You've already made statements on the order of (paraphrasing) ..."A sotapanna has eliminated the roots of false views, but still deeper roots remain." Doesn't that type of contradiction alarm you when you type it or think it? We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the only one I've seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently eliminated all false views. The only demonstrations I have seen you provide from Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support the position I'm taking. You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. You are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still flourish even after the mind has been cleansed of false views. That astounds me but stranger things have happened. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm still not a convert. ;-) At any rate, the main thing is to practice conditionality insight, the false views will be dealt with according to natural cause and effect relations; in spite of our "views" as to when it will happen. :-) TG 40207 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:21pm Subject: ICARO Icaro!!! Where have you been??? The last time you wrote you were in Toronto with unpleasant mental feeling. Larry 40208 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: ICARO Hello Larry!!, Icaro!!, (and anyone else !! with a solution [or even a wild guess] to the mystery), I'm not so sure it was Icaro in Toronto, (though I know trains DO go there, and, with a great deal of game-losing re-routing it COULD be a roundabout route from Darwin to Brisbane) I know Toronto was mentioned - but did he mean Tonto? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33989 I have this vague memory of Icaro quite seriously discussing Rocky, Bullwinkle and Dhamma - but maybe it was all a dream ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Icaro!!! > > Where have you been??? The last time you wrote you were in Toronto with > unpleasant mental feeling. > > Larry 40209 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:10pm Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hello TG and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2004 12:10:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya > ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and > clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, > however. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > Hi Sarah > > No agreement at all. For I consider a "view" of something to be the way it > is being seen, perceived, realized, interpreted, etc. If the "view" contains > delusion, then its a false view. Period. The only thing a streamwinner has > gotten rid of is the gross "belief" that that these things are self. They still > have the "view" of them as being "mine," "I am." etc. That's still a self > view and that's a false view. Azita: I can see how you are using 'view' here. However I understand in Abhidhamma terms, Is that all wrong view [micca ditthi] is eradicated at the moment of sotapatimaggacitta. You've already made statements on the order of > (paraphrasing) ..."A sotapanna has eliminated the roots of false views, but > still deeper roots remain." Doesn't that type of contradiction alarm you when you > type it or think it? > > We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm > concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the only one I've > seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently > eliminated all false views. Azita: well, I'll put my hand up here, so I'm the second one arguing this point. The only demonstrations I have seen you provide from > Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support the > position I'm taking. > > You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. Azita: Mana - conceit, is not ditthi - view. There is Micchaditthi and Sammadhitti. Wrong view, right view. Again, Abhidhamma terms. It actually took me quite a while to understand how a Sotapanna can have no more idea of self as a lasting entity, but can still have lust. what it did for me, was help me understand [theoretically] how anatta works. you see, if the 5 khandhas are the very things we take for self, for something lasting and therefore worthy of having, and then at stage of sotapanna, the view that its lasting etc. is eliminated, but a lot remain, eg lobha, mana, dosa - but not the degree that can perform really evil deeds, rupa. Somehow it helped me understand the anattan- ness of the khandhas. You > are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still flourish even > after the mind has been cleansed of false views. That astounds me but > stranger things have happened. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm still not a > convert. ;-) > > At any rate, the main thing is to practice conditionality insight, the false > views will be dealt with according to natural cause and effect relations; in > spite of our "views" as to when it will happen. :-) > > TG > > Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 40210 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 0:38am Subject: Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand Thinking of all our friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and elsewhere in S.E. Asia with metta and karuna after hearing of the earthquakes and resultant Tsunamis. May you and your relatives all stay safe and well. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40211 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:24am Subject: Fw: Re: Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand Dear friends, This post was received from mettamoc, so I forward it here. metta, Christine ----- Original Message ----- From: "mettamoc" Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: >> >> Thinking of all our friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and >> elsewhere in S.E. Asia with metta and karuna after hearing of the >> earthquakes and resultant Tsunamis. May you and your relatives all >> stay safe and well. >> >> metta and peace, >> Christine >> ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ===================================================================== > Dear Dharma friends in the forum, > May all of you be well, happy . > > Metta > 40212 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG (& Azita), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > No agreement at all. For I consider a "view" of something to be the way > it > is being seen, perceived, realized, interpreted, etc. If the "view" > contains > delusion, then its a false view. Period. …. I apologise if anything I’m saying is unclear or confusing in anyway. By false or wrong view, are you referring to ditthi? By delusion, are you referring to moha? The deepest roots of all are those of moha and lobha (without ditthi) which are only eradicated by the arahant. The roots with ditthi have to be eradicated first. Perhaps by false/wrong views here, you are referring to perversions without ditthi (:-/) or lobha ( sometimes accompanied by conceit). As you know I'm sure, conceit and wrong view (ditthi) cannot arise at the same time. They arise with different cittas, but both are rooted in lobha. Is it helpful to look at the vipallasa (perversions) here, where it is clear that those with ditthi (wrong view) are eradicated at sotapatti magga? From Nyantiloka’s dictionary: ***** • Vipallása 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either: • of perception (saññá-vipallása), • of consciousness (citta v.) • or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard: • what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; • what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); • what is without a self (anattá) as a self; • what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A.IV.49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path-knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, ***** >The only thing a streamwinner > has > gotten rid of is the gross "belief" that that these things are self. > They still > have the "view" of them as being "mine," "I am." etc. That's still a > self > view and that's a false view. …. These are perversions of sanna and citta accompanying attachment and conceit, but not wrong views (ditthi) of self or ‘the world’ as elaborated on in the Sallekha Sutta, James referred us to. (Even he acknowledges that the commentary makes it clear all wrong views are eradicated at sotapatti magga. James, I plan to discuss your posts and the sutta later in detail). …. > We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm > concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the > only one I've > seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently > eliminated all false views. The only demonstrations I have seen you > provide from > Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support > the > position I'm taking. …. S: I’m rather mystified. Unless you’re giving false views here another connotation to refer to other perversions and not to ditthi, I haven’t seen anyone else or any sutta or comy supporting your position apart from James (and as I say, even his position is a little different, which I’ll respond to later). You’d have to elaborate. … > You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. > You > are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still > flourish even > after the mind has been cleansed of false views. That astounds me but > stranger things have happened. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm > still not a > convert. ;-) … S: See Azita’s and Nina’s posts too with further examples and explanations. Even now, when we compare another’s wealth or health, have attachment for any sense objects, have anger or just no knowing with ignorance, there doesn’t need to be any false view involved at all. While a child is playing for hours on the beach, mostly there’s just attachment and ignorance – no views about truths and realities at all. Of course, straight after the conceit or the attachment or other cittas, there can be 'false view' when we take the other person or thing or ourselves for ‘Self’ or ‘Something’ very easily and commonly. …. > At any rate, the main thing is to practice conditionality insight, the > false > views will be dealt with according to natural cause and effect > relations; in > spite of our "views" as to when it will happen. :-) …. S: I think it’s important as Azita said to understand a little about the characteristics of ditthi, mana and lobha in theory at least so that awareness can be aware of them when they arise and the distinctions clearly understood. I’m happy to continue discussing this thread as I think it’s important to clear up any misunderstandings of substance or language here. Metta, Sarah p.s I meant to say before, that I thought your comments to Phil on the use of the 5 and 6 sense doors were very good.- i.e attachment to objects through the 5 senses and thinking on account of them. If you 'speak' to Ray H, please encourage him to join in our thread here too! ======== 40213 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: ICARO > > Hello Larry!!, Icaro!!, (and anyone else !! with a solution [or even > a wild guess] to the mystery), > > I'm not so sure it was Icaro in Toronto, (though I know trains DO go > there, and, with a great deal of game-losing re-routing it COULD be > a roundabout route from Darwin to Brisbane) Hello Chris!!!!! One of these days I was watching a copy I have of the first episode of the old Gerry & Sylvia Anderson series "UFO". There were a nurse on the scene, in duty of open cirurgically the guts and bowels of one hostile alien captured out by the SHADO....I remember you! Opening the guts of an alien, while reciting the Digha Nikaya...she´s must be only the unique Christine Forsyth!!!!! By the fact, here in Rio de Janeiro there are few opportunities to realize Dana in benefit for the Sangha...only a tiny Theravada Temple at the other side of the town, taking at full Buddhaghosa´s advice to only rising monasterties at places of difficult access... > I know Toronto was mentioned - but did he mean Tonto? Well, I usually do this way: first a double track rail line from Edmonton to Calgary, and after - if the market is O.K. - an expansion to Regina or Saskatoon,making a lot of money on the way. So,I launch a dire advance to Fort Vermillon or Dawson Creek and I get the Bronze Medal for my diligent efforts! In other scenery, I linked out Toront to Chicago, and after rise a line Toronto-Chicago-St.Louis, but it never worked out properly...is there any good canadian soul at this room to give a helpful hand to a poor Railroad Tycoon II Player ?? > I have this vague memory of Icaro quite seriously discussing Rocky, > Bullwinkle and Dhamma - but maybe it was all a dream ... :-) Dhamma penetrates and fills every aspect of the world, Chris.Many times I thought of the interplay of external objects and its movementes with our sense and mind door, as a flow of sketches on a cartoon or something alike. Buddhistic countries as Japan and Korea supports with a very national passion its own cartoon productions - the Animes. Perhaps there are more Dhamma at the Rocky & Bullwinkle show that can conceive our silly philosophies!!!! Mettaya and kisses, Chris! Ícaro 40214 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:12am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 84- Volition/cetanaa (n) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** We should distinguish the condition for vipåkacitta from the condition for kusala citta or for akusala citta. Accumulated kamma which produces vipåka is one type of condition. The accumulated tendencies to good and evil due to which kusala citta and akusala citta arise are another type of condition. Thus, there are different types of condition which play their part in our life. Tendencies to all kinds of defilements are accumulated. When, for example, lobha-múla-citta arises, the tendency to lobha is accumulated and thus there are conditions for the arising again of lobha-múla-citta. We are bound to be attached because we have accumulated such an amount of lobha. Not only unwholesome tendencies, but also wholesome tendencies can be accumulated. When there is a moment of right mindfulness of the reality which appears now, it is a condition for the arising of mindfulness again, later on. We tend to be attached rather than to be mindful, but when mindfulness has been accumulated more it will be less difficult to be mindful. Whatever tendency is accumulated now will bear on our life in the future(1). *** 1) See also Abhidhamma Studies V, 3, by Ven. Nyanaponika, B.P.S. Kandy 1976. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40215 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:11am Subject: Apologies Hi everyone, I sincerely regret having expressed myself lately in a way that may have been unacceptable for some people. I have sincerely regretted existing for quite a while longer. I am not interested in keeping the dream alive. As to a precise definition of sotapanna, who gives a shit? Kind Regards Herman 40216 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: ICARO > Where have you been??? The last time you wrote you were in Toronto with > unpleasant mental feeling. By the six Buddhistic Hells!!!! I´ve tried to link Toronto to Chicago and after to St. Louis at Railroad Tycoon II, but I didn´t got any success!!!! They don´t want me to be famous! They don´t want me to be a Tycoon!!! What´s the problem to be famous anyway ? I can put down rail tracks from here to Thailand!!! Is there any good canadian soul to give me a helping hand at Virtual Railroad Big Market ? Mettaya, Ícaro 40217 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo and Nina Htoo - You said that since due to manusaa patisandhi, it means that the tadarammana cittas should be also kusala vipaka. I like to know the source of this statement Nina, I love technical details, the more complex, the more fun it will going to be. Ken O 40218 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Phil > Ph: What does the Thai commentary say about this "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that appears so often. Why doesn't it mention not-self? In the Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Bases << 237. But what is taught by the Tathagatha in this Suttanta Division? The characteristic of no-self in the twelve bases. For the Fully Enlightened One, when teaching the characterisitic of no-self, teaches it by means of impermanent, or by means of suffering, or by means of [both] the impermanent and suffering. >> Ken O 40219 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies Dear Friends Herman & James, I'm sure we all appreciate your kind words, Herman, I don’t have much time now, but I’m prompted by your message to try and respond to some of your concerns and also James’s helpful comments on the Sallekha Sutta, MN8. Herman, I hope you'll agree that all the problems in life come down to our distorted perceptions and views about the world appearing through the 6 senses. Therefore, if any of our discussions here can help to turn a spotlight on these perceptions and views and thus be a condition for developing awareness and a view of these worlds which is not distorted, it will lead slowly to a lifting of the tenacious hold that such perversions (vipallasas) have. I think that some of the reasons I'm discussing sotapannas might be for reasons discussed in the sutta, including the danger (as I see it of course) of distorted ideas about attainments: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel061.html#ch2 Let me just post a few brief extracts with some of Nyanaponika’s notes: ***** The Discourse on Effacement Introduction (by Nyanaponika) <…> >(Secs. 1-11) This warning against an overestimation of one's position links up with the first sections of our text which we have still to consider. They likewise deal with the overrating of one's achievements, here in the fields of insight and meditative absorptions. >Even initial steps in these fields may result in experiences having such a strong impact on the mind that it is psychologically understandable if they lead to overestimation. This does not necessarily mean overrating oneself through pride, but overrating the position of one's achievements on the path of progress. One may believe them to be complete in their field while they are only partial or to be final while they are only temporary suppressions. <…> >Misconceptions of self and world, which may be quite instinctive and un-philosophical, are deeply anchored in man's nature. They are rooted not only in his intellectual opinions (ditthi), but also in his cravings (tanha) and in his pride and self-assertion (mana). All these three roots of wrong attitudes identify the alleged self or ego with the five aggregates (khandha) comprising personality-and-environment. >These wrong attitudes towards self and world may manifest themselves on various levels: as casual thought-arisings, as a habitual bias, and in words and deeds (see Note 8). Only if the self-identification with the actual "objects of wrong views," i.e., the five aggregates, is radically dissolved on the stage of stream-entry, can it be said that wrong views of self and world have been totally eliminated, together with the bias towards them. <….> >The entire discourse seems to be designed to meet, in a very thorough manner, two opposite psychological obstacles on the path: discouragement in the face of its difficulties, and overrating of partial results. The first part of the discourse (Sees. 1-11) deals with the latter extreme, by stressing the limitations of initial and partial progress. >But for meeting any discouragement caused by these warnings, the Compassionate Master speaks of the value of seemingly simple ethical virtues and stresses the importance of the heart's earnest resolve (Sec. 13) as the first step which anyone can take who is serious about treading the path of actual effacement. <….> The Discourse on Effacement Sallekha Sutta <….> >3. "Venerable sir, there are these various views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines or world-doctrines.[2] Does the abandoning and discarding of such views come about in a monk who is only at the beginning of his [meditative] reflections?"[3] >"Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[4] these views arise, in which they underlie and become active,[5] is seen with right wisdom[6] as it actually is,[7] thus: 'This is not mine,[8] this I am not,[9] this is not my self'[10] -- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding,[11] takes place in him [who thus sees]. …. S:[James – ‘those several views’ is a translation of anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo meaning many, various or manifold wrong view. As I quoted from another sutta, when self doctrines or views are eradicated, so are all other wrong views.] … >(From the Sutta again)The Eight Attainments >4. "It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'[12] **** S:Herman & James, I want to quote some of the useful notes Nyanaponika refers to above in the sutta, but I’ll put them at the end of this post after signing off. James, as I say, this is more rushed than intended. I’ll be glad to discuss this sutta further. Herman, please consider any other aspects of the Dhamma that might seem more relevant and helpful to discuss further, if these comments miss the target. You have many good friends here. Let us help and share the little knowledge we have about the Buddha's Teachings with each other. It's a rare opportunity, I think. Wishing you very well for the New Year. Metta, Friend Sarah ========= >Notes 2. Self-doctrines or world-doctrines (atta-vada, lokavada). According to Comy., this refers: (a) to the twenty types of personality-belief (sakkaya-ditthi), i.e., four for each of the five aggregates (khandha); (b) to eight wrong views about self and world, as being eternal, not eternal, both eternal and not eternal, neither eternal nor not eternal, and the same four alternatives concerning finite and infinite. 3. In a monk who is only at the beginning of his (meditative) reflections (adim-eva manasikaroto). Comy.: "This refers to one who is at the beginning of his insight-meditation (vipassana-bhavana) and has not yet attained to stream-entry," when the fetter of personality-belief is finally eliminated. The beginner's insight-practice extends from the "discernment of mentality and corporeality" (namarupa-pariccheda) up to the "knowledge of rise and fall" (udayabbaya-ñana), on which see Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chs. XVIII, XX, XXI. According to the Comy., the Thera's question concerns those who overrate the degree of their achievement, i.e., those who believe that, in their meditative practice, they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. Overestimation (abhimana), in that sense, "does not arise in ignorant common people (bala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly life, nor does it arise in Noble Disciples (ariya-savaka); because in a stream-winner the overestimation does not arise that he is a once-returner, etc. Self-overestimation can occur only in one who actually practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by way of tranquillity or insight. Maha-Cunda Thera, being an arahant, was no self-overrater himself, but in formulating his question, he put himself in the place of one who is; or, as others say, there may have been such "self-overraters" among his pupils, and for conveying to them the Buddha's reply, he put his question. 4. (The object) in which (yattha). Comy.: yattha (where) = yasmim arammane. The object, or basis, the five aggregates, because all false views on self and world can refer only to the five aggregates or to one of them. See Discourse on the Snake Simile (Wheel No. 47/48), p. 8, and Anatta and Nibbana, by Nyanaponika Thera (Wheel No. 11), p. 18 (quotation). 5. In which these views arise (yattha uppajjanti), i.e., arise for the first time, without having occurred earlier (Comy.). Underlie (anusenti), i.e., habitually occur (cf. anusaya, "tendency," which may be latent or active). Comy.: "This refers to views which, having been indulged in repeatedly, have become strong and have not been removed." Sub.Comy.: "By ultimate elimination (samuccheda-vinaya-vasena)." Become active (samudacaranti). Comy.: "Wrong views have arrived at the (action-) doors of body and speech," i.e., which have found expression in words and deeds. 6. With right wisdom (sammappaññaya). Comy.: "With insight-wisdom, ending with the knowledge pertaining to the path of stream-entry." [Go back] 7. As it actually is (yatha-bhutam). Comy.: "Because the five aggregates exist only in that manner (i.e., as something 'that is not mine,' etc.). But if conceived in the way 'It is mine,' etc., it simply does not exist (n'ev'atthi)." 8. This is not mine: hereby craving (tanha) is rejected. 9. This I am not: this refers to the rejection of conceit (mana). 10. This is not my self: this refers to the rejection of false views (ditthi). 11. Abandoning... discarding (pahanam... patinissaggo). Comy.: "Both terms are synonymous with the ultimate eradication of wrong views, taking place at stream-entry when the fetter of personality belief is destroyed." 12. Now the Buddha speaks, on his own, of another type of "self-overrater," i.e., of those who have realized any of the eight meditative attainments (samapatti) and believe that this signifies true "effacement" (sallekha). The common meaning of sallekha* is austere practice or asceticism; but in the Buddha's usage it is the radical "effacing" or removal of the defilements. <…> 40220 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep > T: Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it > is only a sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do you have any helpful 'tips' ? k: When panna arise to see dhammas as not I, not me, not myself, sati has also arise together with panna. So there is no need to summon both mindfulness and understanding at the same instant as they arise together. ;-) isn't panna cetasika wonderful, make practise simple. k: Anatta is important because it leads to salvation. But that does not mean the other two characteristics (dukkha and anicca) are not important, both dukkha and anicca helps one to penetrate the meaning of anatta during the Buddha sasana. Ken O 40221 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi, Herman Egbert wrote: >>All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same >> >> >esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in >fact defines what a dhamma is). > > >H : >Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas >(things). The critical thing about relations is that their >characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations >inhere in a third-party observation. > >For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger >than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain >external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the >moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. > > I agree with all you say here but do not see it as having any application to the kind of relations being discussed. Would you not agree that the gravitational pull between the sun and its planets inheres in the sun? >To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is >also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. > > The assertion being made is that each dhamma has a characteristic that is unique to that particular class of dhamma. Another way of saying that is that the unique characteristic of dhammas of the same class is the same. If you are saying that because sameness is a relative concept (which of course I agree is so) dhammas cannot be 'absolute', then I'm afraid I do not see the force of that reasoning. >So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence >is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". > >That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is >also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and >comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to >know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their >relationship of sameness. > > We should not confuse characteristic(s) with relations. The two are different. Characteristics are known first, as I understand it. For example, nama dhammas are known as nama dhammas, and rupa dhammas as rupa dhammas. Knowledge of the conditioning factors that hold between dhammas is a much more advanced level of understanding (of course I am just parroting here). >Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party >observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is >always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object >framework on what is experienced. > > I hope I have explained why not all relationships can be so characterised. >As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- >evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana >as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the >necessity to come to know the inherent and relational >characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. > > I would be interested to hear what your idea of the development of awareness or understanding at the present moment is, if it has nothing to do with the arising dhammas of that moment ;-)). >The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It >ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in >any way. > >Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 > >"Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up >(another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those >who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not >[have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to >either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another >existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on >investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the >seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. >That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be >identified in the world? " > > A good quote. I'd like to know what the original term here translated as 'view' is. I do not believe the Buddha taught a path of refraining from having a view about anything. That would not be consistent with the teaching on conditioned dhammas and 'not-self', as I understand that teaching. Jon 40222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Azita - >... > > > I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is >important to look as closely and carefully as one can. When I do so, what seemed >solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more closely with >reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, there >is a different sort of falling apart. The reasoning itself falls apart, and >dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's >capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, that >perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I think that >one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the point >that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. > >With metta, >Howard > > I am going to disagree with you here.;-)) I would see a danger in the kind of 'looking' and 'reasoning' you refer to. That danger is that it is at base nothing more than a kind of thinking about things, and so likely to be informed by the accumulated wrong view and other akusala that lies latent in all consciousness moments. When there is looking there is a looking at something. But that something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are directly visible only to panna. Thus, as and when panna arises, dhammas can be known; not, by looking panna is conditioned to arise. As concisely as I can put it. ;-)) Jon 40223 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/26/04 8:34:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Azita - > >... > > > > > > I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is > >important to look as closely and carefully as one can. When I do so, what > seemed > >solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more > closely with > >reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, > there > >is a different sort of falling apart. The reasoning itself falls apart, and > > >dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's > > >capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, > that > >perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I > think that > >one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the > point > >that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > > > I am going to disagree with you here.;-)) > > I would see a danger in the kind of 'looking' and 'reasoning' you refer > to. That danger is that it is at base nothing more than a kind of > thinking about things, and so likely to be informed by the accumulated > wrong view and other akusala that lies latent in all consciousness > moments. > > When there is looking there is a looking at something. But that > something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are > directly visible only to panna. Thus, as and when panna arises, dhammas > can be known; not, by looking panna is conditioned to arise. > > As concisely as I can put it. ;-)) > > Jon > > =========================== I'm not really sure you doentirely disagree with me. I'm not speaking about reasoning as yielding truth. I'm speaking about exhausting our reasoning, seeing the ultimate futility of it, seeing through it as ultimately impotent, and developing a distaste for it to the extent that one turns away from it and towards reality. I am also not saying that such is "the way". I'm saying that such is a skillful means. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40225 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation/ Ken's Happy New Year, Ken O. Your comment is interesting : > When panna arise to see dhammas as not I, not me, not myself, > sati has also arise together with panna. So there is no need to > summon both mindfulness and understanding at the same instant > as they arise together. > ;-) isn't panna cetasika wonderful, make practise simple. > Could you please explain a little more along the following lines: 1) In case of a worlding, if sati and panna arise together (like cheese and sausage in an ordered pizza), then what dhamma conditions them to arise in the first place? Or do sati and panna automatically arise in any non-Ariya person? 2) When you refered to sati and panna, did you really mean sati- sampajanna or sati and vipassana-nana ? 3) Is the 'knowing and seeing things the way they really are' same as panna that arises together with sati for a worldling? Or is it true only for an Ariya? Thank you so much for the interesting thought, Ken. Warmest regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > T: Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it > > is only a sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many > billion times more I have to make mental noting like this before it > finally sticks. Do you have any helpful 'tips' ? > > k: When panna arise to see dhammas as not I, not me, not myself, > sati has also arise together with panna. So there is no need to > summon both mindfulness and understanding at the same instant as they > arise together. ;-) isn't panna cetasika wonderful, make practise > simple. > > k: Anatta is important because it leads to salvation. But that does > not mean the other two characteristics (dukkha and anicca) are not > important, both dukkha and anicca helps one to penetrate the meaning > of anatta during the Buddha sasana. > > > > > Ken O > 40226 From: mlnease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:50am Subject: Sudden Change Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity not to be taken for granted. mike 40227 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sudden Change Hi, Mike (and Christine and all) - In a message dated 12/26/04 10:51:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. > > mike > ====================== I would like to add my voice to those voicing grief, and all those feeling grief, at this terrible tragedy. This is inexpressibly sad. May the people directly affected somehow manage to find a degree of peace. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40228 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep > 1) In case of a worlding, if sati and panna arise together (like > cheese and sausage in an ordered pizza), then what dhamma conditions them to arise in the first place? Or do sati and panna automatically > arise in any non-Ariya person? k: Faith and listening to dhamma (including - reading etc) will conditioned panna to arise. Sati can arise without panna but when panna arise, sati will arise. This arisen of panna and sati is applicable to worldings and ariyan. Frankly, to me doing mindfulness without panna is basically wasting our time, not conducive to the path. In short doing mindfulness without knowing the three characteristics does not help us out of samasara. So the best way is still wise attention (understand the three characteristics of all dhammas = panna) > 3) Is the 'knowing and seeing things the way they really are' same > as panna that arises together with sati for a worldling? Or is it true only for an Ariya? k: Not the same. MN 1 Mulapariyaya sutta shows there is a difference. Knowing and seeing things the way they really are - I prefer the word fully understand - is applicable to Arahants only. Even Noble disciples that are still learning, may fully understand but do not completely fully understand as an Arahant. Worldings like me, does not understanding it, so knowing and seeing the ways they really are is definitely not applicable to me, but there is a way out - again - wise attention > 2) When you refered to sati and panna, did you really mean sati- > sampajanna or sati and vipassana-nana ? k: I am not good at pali terms, can someone please explain these two terms - sati-sampajanna and vipassana-nana. Ken O 40229 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:18am Subject: Re: Sudden Change The same wishes from me. I think of all the people in South East Asia Metta and karuna for them Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlthatnease" wrote: > > Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. > > mike 40230 From: Larry Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:57am Subject: Re: Apologies Herman: "I sincerely regret having expressed myself lately in a way that may have been unacceptable for some people." Hi Herman, Instead of regret you could practice the mindfulness of the dhamma of the six sense bases, noticing that this fetter arose dependent on this sense base, most notably the eye base and visible object encountered in reading emails. Of course there is no need to stop reading emails or even stop reacting to them. Then you would run out of a handy object of meditation. It would be good though to recognize the fetter as a fetter, in this case dosa, dislike or hatred. Larry 40231 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/26/2004 2:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: S: I’m rather mystified. Unless you’re giving false views here another connotation to refer to other perversions and not to ditthi, I haven’t seen anyone else or any sutta or comy supporting your position apart from James (and as I say, even his position is a little different, which I’ll respond to later). You’d have to elaborate. Hi Sarah I'm sure this is the discrepency. I am using "view"as used in English, not as used in Pali perhaps. I am saying, that a mind that still thinks "mine," and I am," is not free from "seeing things" in relation to a self-view. I will call this a "sense-of-self" instead of calling it self view. Is that easier to swallow? Since you brought up Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, let's look at the definition of Ditthi... "Ditthi (lit.: 'sight',; dis to see): View, Belief, Speculative Opinion, Insight. Nyanatiloka defines Sakkaya-Ditthi as "Personality Belief." This is the "belief" that a streamwinner eliminates. That fits with the way I see it just fine. Is it a view?, yes, if a view is limited to being seen as a "belief." I have been using "view" in a much broader sense than that. Perversions of perception... If ignorance is the most fundamental delusion upon which all others are based, the question becomes -- what is ignorance ignorant of? You correctly were pointing out ignorance is ignorant of the impermanent, suffering, and selfless aspects of phenomena. This means ignorance still has the inherent tendency to see things as self at some level or another. To me this means there is still a sense-of-self. To overcome sense-of-self is the hardest delusion to overcome, not the easiest one to overcome. If I descrive it in this way, does that more accord with the way you are seeing it? TG 40232 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. > 'This is mine' refers to > craving,taking objects as belonging to self. 'This am I' refers to mana > and 'This is my self' refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, > identified with the 5 khandhas. > . >>See#25213 for my comments. Here 'this am I' refers to mana. Sorry to have missed this the first time around, this "This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am" from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59) (and many others, I think), is really valuable--I hadn't sorted these out in this way before. Really an important distinction--is this explained per se in the Abhidhamma? Thanks, mike 40233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, Phil, just adding one point: latent tendencies do not arise, but they condition akusala cittas. Perhaps the word present could confuse some people, suggesting that they arise, but they lie dormant in ech citta, they are accumulated from one citta to the next. Nina. op 26-12-2004 03:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the > tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, if one does not > understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." (SN XXXVI.3) > > Hi Phil, > > You asked how one could tell when a sutta is talking about path > consciousness. Nina pointed out the pattern "he is not aware...he is > aware". Another clue is any talk of tendencies (anusaya). Tendencies are > always present until enlightenment. > 40234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Dear TG, Sarah, Azita, See my last post on this, TG, where I tried to explain. The confusion may be now just on the words that are used. The pali can clear this up. Wrong view is unwholesome but not all unwholesomeness is wrong view. Micchaditthi, wrong view, includes sakkayaditthi, personality view, and several kinds that Sarah listed quoting from Nyanaponika's notes. It does not include conceit, mana, delusion, moha, those are different akusala cetasikas. The three ways of attachment to self, let me repeat: In the suttas we often read: this is mine, eta.m mama, this am I , esoham asmi, this is myself, eso me attaa. The Book of Analysis and the Co explain these as: lobha, conceit and ditthi. See B.B. Root of Existence, p. 10. Asmi mana is one form of conceit. There are many forms. Also the commentaries explain it this way. The sotapanna can be angry but he does not take it for my anger and that is already a great benefit. As Azita explains, it does not lead to a real bad deed or speech. It is very encouraging to know this. It shows that it is a long way to arahatship, but that it *can* be done. The sotapanna is sure to reach final liberation. This is also stated in the suttas. He has crossed over doubt, and, without someone else's help. He had to develop his own understanding. Nina. op 26-12-2004 05:10 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: Azita: I can see how you are using 'view' here. However I > understand in Abhidhamma terms, Is that all wrong view [micca ditthi] > is eradicated at the moment of sotapatimaggacitta. > > Azita: well, I'll put my hand up here, so I'm the second one arguing > this point. 40235 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] subject to change. Hi Phil, Ken O, I needed time to think. Subject to change: vipari.naama. This is an aspect of dukkha, also explained in the Dispeller of Delusion. Dukkha has different aspects and the following three can be discerned: dukkha/dukkha, physical pain and mental suffering, domanassa. dukkha as subject to change, vipari.naama dukkha: pleasant feeling changes, that is unsatisfactoriness. Sankhara dukkha: the dhammas that arise because of conditions and fall away are dukkha. This is dukkha in the deepest sense and hard to see. Depending on the capability of people to be led to enlightenment, the Buddha would speak about different levels of dukkha. Nina. op 26-12-2004 13:31 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > Hi Phil > >> Ph: What does the Thai commentary say about this "all form is > impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that appears so often. > Why doesn't it mention not-self? > > > In the Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Bases > << 237. But what is taught by the Tathagatha in this Suttanta > Division? The characteristic of no-self in the twelve bases. For > the Fully Enlightened One, when teaching the characterisitic of > no-self, teaches it by means of impermanent, or by means of > suffering, or by means of [both] the impermanent and suffering. >> > Ken O 40236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Ken O and Tep, sati sampajañña: they are the cetasikas sati and pañña. Sampajañña is translated also as clear comprehension. The Co to the Satipatthana sutta explains four kinds: (See the Way, Ven. Soma translation, and also other commentaries): in short: you know to what purpose you are developing samatha and/or vipassana; you know whether what you do is suitable (such as knowing whether the place where you stay is suitable), clear comprehension of resort, which is the object of samatha and/ or vipassana, and non-delusion as to the object. There is much more to say, but that is too long now. Sati sampajañña is necessary in samatha and in vipassana, it is not theoretical or just intellectual understanding. Vipassana ñana: stages of insight. See Path of Discrimination and Visuddhimagga. I spoke with Philip about the first stage, knowing what the mind-door is, not just in theory, and I think we need more discussions about this subject. This will also be helpful for myself to have points clarified. Tep, I need more time to think of an answerto your question how to prepare for reaching stages of insight. Your points raised to Ken O are very good. Nina. op 26-12-2004 17:45 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > k: I am not good at pali terms, can someone please explain these two > terms - sati-sampajanna and vipassana-nana. 40237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi Herman and Larry, Herman, better not leave. Then I have to think of you again to make you come back, that happened several times. Imagine, my father's dog used to leave the room when we played Schubert, he only likes Bach and baroque. But now he gets used to Schubert. For Christmas we played quatre mains Schubert (Grand Rondo) and the dog liked it and listened. I found your example so useful telling the difference when you were not reading mails and when you were involved. We think of many odd things, but when we read Dhamma we think more of Dhamma. In case of stopping, as Larry said:Then you would run out of a handy object of meditation. I find that it helps me to try to answer mails and to correspond. Indeed it is a way of bhavana. Nina. op 26-12-2004 18:57 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > Herman: "I sincerely regret having expressed myself lately in a way > that may have been unacceptable for some people." > > Hi Herman, > > Instead of regret you could practice the mindfulness of the dhamma of > the six sense bases, noticing that this fetter arose dependent on > this sense base, most notably the eye base and visible object > encountered in reading emails. Of course there is no need to stop > reading emails or even stop reacting to them. Then you would run out > of a handy object of meditation. It would be good though to recognize > the fetter as a fetter, in this case dosa, dislike or hatred. > > Larry 40238 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 0:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is time ? Nama time being a matter of sankhara ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > We've been discussing for years the very delicate question, "is > impermanence real". Admittedly my proposal is a bit of a stretch because > if the water element is time it would have to cross the insurmountable > barrier between nama and rupa. Maybe there are two times, rupa time > and nama time, with nama time being a matter of that mysterious > word "sankhara". > > Larry Hallo Harry L: Maybe there are two times, nama time and rupa time. J: Yes, maybe. But do you still think rupa time is the water element ? (I don't, I think time is a rupa-like ultimate reality) And nama-time and (in another dimension) rupa time may be an explanation why a rupa is existing 17 times longer than a nama, they exist in different time-realities so to say. New to me is the question : what is nama time? Maybe it's a matter of that mysterious word "sankhara", you say. My first thought reading was you made a typo and did mean "samsara": the wheel of samsara turning in time, while in nibbana time doesn't exist any more. That's a good idea too but not what you meant. I think I had to studie more "sankhara" before evaluating your possibility. Metta Joop 40239 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG and Sarah, Hope you'll pardon my butting in: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. > We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm > concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the only > one I've > seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently > eliminated all false views. The only demonstrations I have seen you > provide from > Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support > the > position I'm taking. I've been involved in some rather circular discussion regarding 'views' and have come to the tentative conclusion that they've mainly (if not entirely) been based on differing translation of 'views'. > You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. I think Sarah's right--two completely different and even antithetical factors. > You > are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still flourish > even > after the mind has been cleansed of false views. I would certainly take that position. Unless one defines 'views' to include the three unwholesome roots in a very general way, there is no problem here. The 'di.t.thi' here that Sarah's referring to is a unique mental factor (or one of a set); it IS different from maa.na, not a generality or a way of just referring to all and any 'unenlightened' cittas/cetasikas. So it seems to me, anyway... Just my two cents' worth, hope I haven't misunderstood. mike 40240 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:46pm Subject: Re: Meditation Hello Ken O. (and Nina), First, let me thank Nina for kindly defining the pali terms (sat- sampajanna and vipassana-nana) for us, namely: sampajanna is clear comprehension (which is also a panna) and vipassana-nana means stages of insight. I assume it is alright for me now to continue our unfinished discussion business. You made the following assertions in Message # 40228 [You know, I like your no-nonsense style in answering dhamma questions.]: 1. "Frankly, to me doing mindfulness without panna is basically wasting our time, not conducive to the path. In short doing mindfulness without knowing the three characteristics does not help us out of samasara. So the best way is still wise attention (understand the three characteristics of all dhammas = panna)". 2. "Knowing and seeing things the way they really are - I prefer the word fully understand - is applicable to Arahants only". When I think of 'sati', it is always the mental quality which is the seventh factor of the Eightfold Path and, as such, it is not an island. Being the 7th Path factor, it is accompanied by sampajanna as explained in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's introduction of DN 22 : "The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path. To make an analogy, Awakening is like a mountain on the horizon, the destination to which you are driving a car. Mindfulness is what remembers to keep attention focused on the road to the mountain, rather than letting it stay focused on glimpses of the mountain or get distracted by other paths leading away from the road". I think "knowing and seeing things the way they really are", or yatha- bhuta-nana-dassana, belongs to the Strem-entry level, and it is not the same as full understanding (parinna). Further, full understanding is the quality of all 4 Ariyas-- not that of the Arahat only. There is another term, direct knowledge (see MN 149), that I believe is the supramundane insight knowledge at the Arahat level. However, I am not 100% sure! Anyone who knows that I am inaccurate here, please correct me. Thank you. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > > 1) In case of a worlding, if sati and panna arise together (like > > cheese and sausage in an ordered pizza), then what dhamma > conditions them to arise in the first place? Or do sati and panna > automatically > > arise in any non-Ariya person? > > k: Faith and listening to dhamma (including - reading etc) will > conditioned panna to arise. Sati can arise without panna but when > panna arise, sati will arise. This arisen of panna and sati is > applicable to worldings and ariyan. Frankly, to me doing > mindfulness without panna is basically wasting our time, not > conducive to the path. In short doing mindfulness without knowing > the three characteristics does not help us out of samasara. So the > best way is still wise attention (understand the three > characteristics of all dhammas = panna) > > > 3) Is the 'knowing and seeing things the way they really are' same > > as panna that arises together with sati for a worldling? Or is it > true only for an Ariya? > > k: Not the same. MN 1 Mulapariyaya sutta shows there is a > difference. Knowing and seeing things the way they really are - I > prefer the word fully understand - is applicable to Arahants only. > Even Noble disciples that are still learning, may fully understand > but do not completely fully understand as an Arahant. Worldings like > me, does not understanding it, so knowing and seeing the ways they > really are is definitely not applicable to me, but there is a way out > - again - wise attention > > > > 2) When you refered to sati and panna, did you really mean sati- > > sampajanna or sati and vipassana-nana ? > > k: I am not good at pali terms, can someone please explain these two > terms - sati-sampajanna and vipassana-nana. > > > Ken O 40242 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi Jon and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... > When there is looking there is a looking at something. But that > something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are > directly visible only to panna. Really--this is new to me. Moha, lobha, dosa can't take paramattha dhammas as objects and misunderstand them? Do they always take only pa.n.natti? > Thus, as and when panna arises, dhammas > can be known; not, by looking panna is conditioned to arise. This does make sense. mike 40243 From: kullawat khantikoon Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand thank for ur nice wish from thailand 40244 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/26/2004 11:59:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Dear TG, Sarah, Azita, See my last post on this, TG, where I tried to explain. The confusion may be now just on the words that are used. Hi Nina, Sarah , Mike, all Can a streamwinner -- "view things falsely," but not have "false view?" If the answer is yes, then the word "view" in "false view" needs to be changed to "belief" to make it acceptable in the English language IMO. If a streamwinner cannot "view things falsely," then how can they still have perversions-of-perception regarding permanence, pleasurableness, and self? TG 40245 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (206) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta In puggala classification on citta, cittas are 1. 44 asikkha cittas 2. 56 sikkha cittas 3. 54 puthujjana cittas Asikkha cittas or cittas that can arise in arahats are a) 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas b) 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas c) 8 sahetuka kusala vipaka cittas( 8 mahavipaka cittas ) d)20 kiriya cittas e) 1 arahatta phala citta ----- 44 cittas No other citta can arise in arahats apart from these 44 cittas. 20 kiriya cittas are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas, and 4 arupakiriya cittas. Sikkha cittas or cittas of ariyas excluding arahats are a) 23 kamavacara vipaka cittas( 7 aku + 8 ahetu ku + 8 sahetu ku ) b) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas ( pancadvaravajjana and manodvaravajjana) c) 21 kusala cittas ( 8 mahaku + 5 rupaku + 4 arupaku + 4 lokuttraku) d) 7 akusala cittas (4 ditthi cittas and 1 vicikiccha citta excluded) e) 3 phala cittas ( 1 arahatta phala citta is excluded ) ----------- 56 cittas Apart from these 56 cittas no other citta can arise in these 7 ariyas ( 1.arahatta maggatthana puggala, 2. anagami phalatthana puggala, 3. anagami maggatthana puggala, 4. sakadagami phalatthana puggala, 5. sakadagami maggatthana puggala, 6. sotapatti phalatthana puggala, and 7. sotapatti maggatthana puggala ). Puthujjana cittas are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 17 kusala cittas ( 8 mahakusala + 5 rupakusala + 4 arupakusala ) c) 23 kamavacara vipaka cittas(7 akusalavi+ 8 kusalavi+ 8 mahavipaka) d) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas ( panca- and mano-dvaravajjana cittas ) ------ 54 cittas These cittas can arise in putthujana puggalas. So in most of us these 54 cittas can arise. Again 5 rupakusala and 4 arupakusala are rupa jhanas and arupa jhanas. If we do not have any jhana, then only 45 cittas will be possible to arise in puthujjana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40247 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:22pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (207) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta N. patisandhi classification on citta 1. 1 apaya patisandhi citta( ahetuka akusala upekkha santirana citta) 2. 9 kama sugati patisandhi cittas( 1 santirana + 8 mahavipaka cittas) 3. 5 rupa patisandhi cittas ( 5 rupavipaka cittas ) 4. 4 arupa patisandhi cittas ( 4 arupavipaka cittas) 5.70 anapatisandhi cittas ( 70 vithi cittas ) ---- 89 cittas in total 19 cittas can do the function of linking and they are called patisandhi cittas or linking consciousness. Ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta is the patisandhi citta of hell beings, animals, petas, and asurakayas. 1 ahetuka kusala upekkha santirana citta is the patisandhi citta of some human beings who are born with congential blindness, born with congenital deafness and some of lower devas. 8 mahavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas of human beings and devas. 5 rupavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas of rupa brahmas. 4 arupavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas of arupa brahmas. 0 citta is present in asannisatta rupa brahma. They are born with rupa-patisandhi. They never have any citta at all for their whole life. Once I read someone has written that asannisattas have 2 cittas and one is patisandhi citta and another citta is cuti citta. These are the only cittas in asannisattas. This cannot be true. Asannisatta rupa brahmas do not have any citta for their whole life as long as they are asannisattas. They are born with rupa-patisandhi and they die with rupa-cuti. This is because of bhavana power of marana-asanna- javana-rupakusala-cittas of immediate past life. When this kamma expires another patisandhi citta has to arise and samsara has to continue.[Many things to discuss at this point.] 70 Anapatisandhi cittas or 70 vithi cittas do not involve in patisandhi function, life-continuing function and cuti function. Actually these 70 cittas are not patisandhi cittas. So they are anapatisandhi cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40248 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (208) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta N. patisandhi classification on citta O. frequency classification on citta There are 89 total cittas. 8 cittas are supramundane consciousness or 8 lokuttara cittas and they are highest consciousness ever exist. Other cittas are mundane consciousness or loki cittas. When loki cittas are investigated only 54 kamavacara cittas are abundant and 27 cittas just arise in few beings. Yes. They arise in just few beings. According to frequency of arising there are a) 54 kamavacara cittas or 54 kama cittas b) 27 mahaggata cittas or 27 jhana cittas c) 8 lokuttara cittas ---------- 89 cittas in total These 89 cittas can also be classified as a) 54 kama cittas b) 27 majjhima cittas c) 8 panita cittas or uttara cittas ---- 89 cittas in total Many classifications of citta have been discussed. Any citta of interest can be put under one of these classification. There are illusionary lives as we define them but actually in ultimate sense there are only cittas, cetasikas, rupas, and nibbana. A life as we all know starts with patisandhi citta, which has to home on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis or beings with 5 khandha. And that life ends after passing away of cuti citta, which again has to home on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis or beings with 5 khandhas. In between these 2 cittas are cittas. These cittas if they are process-free they are all bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness and all these life-continuinbg cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis. When cittas are in process or when they are in vithi varas, most cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu. This hadaya vatthu is not a single rupa. It lasts only 17 cittakkhanas or 17 moments. Some cittas have to depend on pancavatthus. That is cakkhuvinnana citta has to depend on cakkhu vatthu and sota on sota, ghana on ghana, jivha on jivha, and kaya on kaya vatthu. Cittas have to arise grounding on vatthu and they have to hold an arammana or object. Citta is like a pole putting on a base or ground and leaning against something like wall, rope, tree, house, or any other supporters. Without rupa ground or rupa base, no citta can arise except cittas or arupa brahmas. And by the same token without supporter like wall, rope, tree the pole cannot stand and has to collapse. There is no citta that does not have any arammana or object. When citta is functioning as patisandhi citta, that citta is generally assumed as consciousness of certain beings. 19 kinds of patisandhi cittas mark 31 realms of existence or 31 bhumis and each is known as a being or satta. But these beings or sattas are just pannatti and there are only citta, cetasikas, rupa and nibbana. But as conventionally known there are human beings and animals as we definitely see. Superhumans like beings with abhinna or superpower they can see all 31 realms. These are called pavatti. Pavatti means 'arising of cittas and cetasikas'. When these arising are the very first in a life, they serve as patisandhi cittas and depending on these cittas, there have to exist 31 bhumis or 31 planes of existence. These patisandhi cittas are not vithi cittas and their arising or 'pavatti' is known as 'vithimutta-pavatti'. All bhavanga cittas and all cuti cittas are also 'vithimutta- pavatti'. 31 realms or 31 bhumis or 31 planes of existence will be discussed later on. In 'vithi-pavatti' or arising of vithi cittas there are many different processes or many different vithi varas. These will be discussed in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40249 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo and Nina > > Htoo - You said that since due to manusaa patisandhi, it means that > the tadarammana cittas should be also kusala vipaka. I like to know > the source of this statement > > Nina, I love technical details, the more complex, the more fun it > will going to be. > > Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, There are 10 kusala vipaka cittas that can do the job of tadarammana cittas. But there is only ONE CITTA of akusala vipaka that can do the job of tadarammana citta. Anyway tadarammana cittas are not akusala or kusala cittas. Tadarammana cittas are all vipaka cittas. As there are 11 tadarammana cittas, in terms of frequency most may be kusala vipaka cittas. In hell beings, in animals, in petas, and in asurakayas when somanassa arise then somanassa tadarammana may follow somanassa javana cittas. There is a rare time when fire of hell stops temporally. There is time for animals when they are delighted. There is time for petas when they are delighted. There is time for asurakaya when they are delighted. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40250 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:15pm Subject: Re: Sudden Change --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote: > > Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. > > mike Dear Mike and others, living at sea level as I do, and often threatened by cyclones, the thought occurs to me during the cyclone season, that maybe I won't be here when the cyclone has gone. It is a stark reminder as you say, Mike, but if only we could remember this every day bec. destruction and mayhem can strike so suddenly, anytime, anywhere. May those beings affected by this disaster, not have to suffer for long. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 40251 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo that is logical reasoning by assuming that due to a manusaa patisandhi the tadarammana cittas should be kusala vipaka. The one citta of aksuala vipaka that can do the job of tadarammana citta does not mean that the tadarammana cittas of a human should be kusala vipaka since there are more kusala vipakas citta than akusala vipaka cittas. By assuming this type of logical reasoning, I think there is likely for us to err. Still I like to have the source of this statment Ken O 40252 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep and (Nina) T: When I think of 'sati', it is always the mental quality which is > the seventh factor of the Eightfold Path and, as such, it is not an island. Being the 7th Path factor, it is accompanied by sampajanna as explained in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's introduction of DN 22 : "The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path. To make an analogy, Awakening is like a mountain on the horizon, the destination to which you are driving a car. Mindfulness is what remembers to keep attention focused on the road to the mountain, rather than letting it stay focused on glimpses of the mountain or get distracted by other paths leading away from the road". k: Sati does not arise alone. In each arisen of alobha and adosa, sati will arise. However it does not mean that panna will arise when sati arise. Again sati will arise with panna but not vice versa. I would prefer to use those definition written by Nina on Cetasikas quoting from Abhidhamma texts, << The Atthasalini then gives another definition of mindfulness: ... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sanna) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-past from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses. The definition of mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 141) is similar to this definition. Mindfulness is non-forgetful of what is kusala and it keeps us from akusala. Also those who do not know about the Dhamma are able to perform wholesome deeds, but it is through the Dhamma that one can know more precisely what is kusala and what is akusala. Association with the good friend in Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma and considering it are most helpful conditions for mindfulness in the field of dana, sila, samatha and insight, thus, for all levels of mindfulness. The generosity, the patience and all the other good qualities of the true friend. in Dhamma can remind one to develop such qualities as well. >> k: In short sati is non-forgetfulness, it is not panna. It does not have the function to understand the three characterisitics. Panna is to me equated as sampajanna. That is why the practise is always sati-sampajanna. T - I think "knowing and seeing things the way they really are", or > yatha- bhuta-nana-dassana, belongs to the Strem-entry level, and it is not the same as full understanding (parinna). Further, full understanding is the quality of all 4 Ariyas-- not that of the Arahat only. There is another term, direct knowledge (see MN 149), that I believe is the supramundane insight knowledge at the Arahat level. However, I am not 100% sure! Anyone who knows that I am inaccurate here, please correct me. k: thanks for correcting me. Yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, interesting word. Nina - could you help again on this term. thanks. I think it is good to quote the pali rather than the English term then we are able to be concise. It helps in the understanding of suttas. k: Full understanding only belongs to Arahant and not the rest of the Noble disciple(they are also refer to learners, need further learning). Arahant are considered those that do not need further learning. For MN 149, will check out later as I am not at home right now. Ken O 40253 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sudden Change Hi Azita, ----- Original Message ----- From: "gazita2002" To: Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Sudden Change > It is a stark reminder as you say, Mike, but if only we could > remember this every day bec. destruction and mayhem can strike so > suddenly, anytime, anywhere. Yes, and acutally does every time, everywhere... > May those beings affected by this disaster, not have to suffer > for long. Yes--and for all disasters always. mike 40254 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:17pm Subject: Fierce Powers ... !!! Friends: Comparison of Destruction: 4000 people have so far been counted as killed here on Sri Lanka due to high Tsunami Waves following the major earthquake deep in Indian Ocean. Fishermen living in huts along the coast were most badly hit. Quite tragic! May all who looks for merit, help the victims in whatever way they can, by supporting the helping organisations... However, the destruction of lust, anger & confusion are killing millions of people ao. beings prematurely each day !!! These mental forces are much more destructive than any earthquake! The vibrations of the major earthquake could be sensed during meditation. So can these fierce forces of Greed, Hate & Ignorance... These invisible 'killers' though, never hit the worldwide attention on Television!!! May they in the future achieve a proper consideration... Floods: Friends, there are these four floods. Which four? The flood of sensing, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance. These are the four floods... Samyutta Nikaya XLV.171 Surprise: Death carries off the man while distracted by gathering the flowers of sense-pleasures, exactly & even so as a great flood carries away a sleeping village. Dhammapada 47 Off Guard: Death sweeps away the man distracted, not yet had his fill of sensual pleasures, even as he gathers these flowers. Dhammapada 48 Engaged-Encaged: When a man is in love with sons, friends & family, his mind is passionately absorbed therein. So distracted, the King of Death carry him off as a raging wave sweeps away the sleeping village. Dhammapada 287 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40255 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Mike m. nease wrote: >Hi Jon and Howard, > > > >>When there is looking there is a looking at somethin?. But that >>something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are >>directly visible only to panna. >> >> > >Really--this is new to me. Moha, lobha, dosa can't take paramattha dhammas >as objects and misunderstand them? Do they always take only pa.n.natti? > > As I understand it, paramattha dhammas can indeed be the object of akusala consciousness, and are regularly so, but in that case they are not seen as they truly are (and the same applies for that matter when dhammas are the object of kusala consciousness that is not accompanied by panna, or of vipaka or kiriya consciousness). It is for this reason that we live in a world of concepts, meaning that we take to be real what is not in fact real but is a conceptual idea of reality. (For the enlightened being, conceptual thinking still occurs, but it is not mistaken for reality.) To pick up on another thread of yours, this mistaking for real what is not real is not the same as the mental factor that is 'wrong view'. Wrong view involves holding to a view about something, but (mis)taking for real what is not does not necessarily involve any holding to a view; it necesarily involves only not seeing clearly what is actually what (= ignorance). Jon 40256 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James I replied the other day with a question about mundane jhana as Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. I'd now like to reply to the rest of your post. buddhatrue wrote: >Friend Jon, > >Jon: What I have said, however, is that in my view it is not a 'how >to' for the beginner. > >James: Okay, sorry to have misquoted you then. But now I have >another question for you: In Buddhism, who is a beginner, who is >intermediate, and who is advanced? (Just wondering what these things >mean to you). > > I was just speaking conventinally. I know that I am definitely in the 'beginner' category, since awarenss and indight are weak and undeveloped. Many of those to whom the suttas were addressed must have been in the advanced caegory, since they became enlightened in that lifetime. There are some interesting references to beginner'beginning level of insight etc in the Sallekha Sutta materila that Sarha has quoted in her post to you. >Jon: On my reading of the texts, it would be a mistake to equate >Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path with mundane jhana. > >James: Jon, that is what the Buddha said is Right Concentration! How >could it be a mistake to equate Right Concentration with Jhana when >the Buddha taught that? I am not sure what texts you are reading >(maybe you could quote them?) but they must not be the right ones. >Here is what the Buddha said: > >"An Analysis of the Path" > >"AND WHAT IS RIGHT CONCENTRATION? There is the case where a monk -- >quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) >qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure >born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. >With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & >remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, >unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- >internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in >equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of >pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the >Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable >abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the >earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains >in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither >pleasure nor pain. THIS IS CALLED RIGHT CONCENTRATION." (caps mine) >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > >Right concentration is jhana, plain and simple, and nothing is left >open for interpretation. It cannot get any more obvious. Black and >White…plain as the nose on your face…etc., etc., ;-)) > >Jon: For one thing, the path factors do not arise as individual >dhammas, but only in combination and with right awareness as their >leader. The development of the path factor of Right Concentration >occurs at any moment of the development of insight. > >James: I do not believe in "path factors" which all arise at the >same moment. This is a theory invented by Buddhaghosa, by taking >one line of one sutta out of context, and it doesn't match the >suttas. Read the above link for a proper understanding of the Noble >Eightfold Path. > The sutta itself is silent on the question of whether the path factors are descriptive of the moment of path entry or development of the path, or are factors to be developed separately and individually, so either explanation involves an element of interpretation. All the ancient texts that I am familiar with either state or assume that the Noble Eightfold Path designates the actual moment of enlightenment (at any 1 of the 4 stages), when all 8 path factors are present. Some of these texts also refer to mundane insight as moments when some but not all path factors are present. To my knowledge, the idea of each of the 8 path factors being in and of itself an aspect of 'practice' is a relatively recent one. There is some interesting material on all this in the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of SN. I hope to get around to citing some of it in a later post. Jon 40257 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends Herman & James, > > I'm sure we all appreciate your kind words, Herman, I don't have much time > now, but I'm prompted by your message to try and respond to some of your > concerns and also James's helpful comments on the Sallekha Sutta, MN8. > Friends Sarah and Herman, Thanks for the apology to everyone, Herman, but I don't think that what you wrote was as bad as all that! Sarah once compared me to a wild wolf who attacks people with my words. ;-)) (Hey, what do you expect me to be with all these tasty, blind sheep following the commentaries?? ;-)) Anyway, I didn't quite understand what you wrote but I thought the imagery was interesting. Sarah, I will give you a detailed response later, but I first want to read two rather lengthy articles by Thanissaro Bhikkhu on stream- entry: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html I want to really make sure that I have all the information possible. This was TG's fight, and I even suggested that he drop it, but now I find myself sucked into this discussion. Oh well, it is always educational for me and of benefit to have to defend my understanding of the Buddha's teaching. I'm sure that if we agreed I wouldn't learn nearly as much. Just a quick comment though, I have read your post and I don't see any quotes from the suttas. If you can't support your position with the commentaries AND the suttas, then it isn't very strong; especially since I am claiming that the commentaries can't be trusted regarding this issue. Metta, James 40258 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 126 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 126 and Tiika Text: Ch. XIV, 126. But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of being felt, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, it should be understood that when associated with the profitable consciousness described in the way beginning '(1)-(8) that of the sense sphere is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting' (par.83), it is 'profitable'; [54] that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable'; that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. ------------------------ Note 54, taken from the Tiika; . 'This should be regarded as a secondary characteristic (upalakka.na) of profitable feeling, that is to say, the fact that whatever profitable feeling there is, is all associated with profitable consciousness. That, however, is not for the purpose of establishing its profitableness. N: Establishing, the Pali has: sa.msiddhi: successful, accomplished. Text: Tiika Text: For the profitableness of profitable feeling is not due to its association with profitable consciousness, but rather to wise attention and so on. That is why he said "as to kind (jaati)". So too in the case of the unprofitable and so on' (Pm.481). N: As to kind: as to jaati: the jatis of kusala, akusala and indeterminate, which includes vipaaka and kiriya. The Tiika emphasizes here right attention, yoniso manaasikara, as the main reason for kusala feeling to be kusala and unwise attention, ayoniso manaasikara, for akusala feeling to be akusala. We read in the Expositor (I, 84) that the proximate cause of kusala citta is right attention, yoniso manasikaara. The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 350) states as to wholesome consciousness that this arises The four favorable conditions are dwelling in a suitable country, the support of good people, right aspirations, past practice of meritorious deeds. Pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling can be kusala as well as akusala. Pleasant feeling can accompany kusala citta as well as akusala citta rooted in attachment and one may easily take feeling that is akusala for feeling that is kusala. Akusala cittas may arise very shortly after kusala cittas. When sati and paññaa arise the different characteristics of kusala and akusala can be realized. There has to be right attention, yoniso manasikaara. Indifferent feeling can accompany citta rooted in attachment and citta rooted in ignorance. Usually indifferent feeling is unnoticed, we are ignorant of it. When there is unwise attention this conditions feelings to be akusala. So long as we do not distinguish the characteristic of naama from the characteristic of ruupa we do not understand feeling as it is. We confuse bodily phenomena and feeling. Through the development of right understanding feelings can be known as naama, different from ruupa. When paññaa develops further there will be less delusion about dhammas, including feeling. Paññaa can understand feeling as it is, as an impersonal element. The Tiika adds that although feelings can be classified according to three jaatis, it can also be classified as eightynine-fold since they accompany all eightynine cittas. Each type of citta is different and thus also its accompanying feeling is different. Even cittas of the same type are different and thus also feeling can never be the same. **** Nina. 40259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Ken O and Tep, op 27-12-2004 06:23 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, interesting > word. Nina - could you help again on this term. thanks. I think it > is good to quote the pali rather than the English term then we are > able to be concise. It helps in the understanding of suttas. N: yathaa: just as, like . bhuuta: what has become, what really is. ñaa.na-dassana: knowledge and vision. Take S.N. II, Nidaanavagga, Upanisa sutta, Transcendental Dependent Arising, Wheel 277/278, Transl and notes by B.B. Concentration conditions knowledge and vision of things as they really are. And this is the development of insight, vipassanaa bhaavana. There are many levels of knowledge and vision of things as they really are. As to the Sutta on the Great Sixfold Sensefield (M.N. 149), this stresses a gradual development: anxieties and torments decrease. At the end arahatship is referred to. But all 37 factors of enlightenment develop together as satipatthana is developed. The Co also indicates that there may be calm at one moment, insight at another moment, but as regards the ariyamagga, they are together, at the same time. They are apair. The sutta ends with vijjaa and vimutti, and this refers to the arahatta magga. As to pariñña, Tep mentions, this is closely connected with the stages of insight. I save this for our thread on vipassana ñaa.na. There are three degrees of pariññaa. Nina. 40260 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo and Ken O, Yes, but the question is still not answered. Htoo, maybe you can ask your Myanmar teachers. You have Mianmar sources that we do not have. Thus, O.K. tadarammana cittas maybe mostly kusala vipaakacittas, but again, that means that these mostly do not experience disagreeable rupas, even when these are the object of a sense-door process. Right or wrong? I had understood that the tadarammana cittas are two more moments of experiencing a rupa in a sense-door process. But even though I am a human being, I do not only experience pleasant objects, I also very often experience unpleasant objects. Nina. op 27-12-2004 03:48 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > There are 10 kusala vipaka cittas that can do the job of tadarammana > cittas. But there is only ONE CITTA of akusala vipaka that can do the > job of tadarammana citta. > > Anyway tadarammana cittas are not akusala or kusala cittas. > Tadarammana cittas are all vipaka cittas. As there are 11 tadarammana > cittas, in terms of frequency most may be kusala vipaka cittas. 40261 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, I see now that we cannot avoid Pali for conciseness. Lets use English and Pali together. It is important to know which English word represents which akusala cetasika. Otherwise we go in circles. op 27-12-2004 00:03 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > If a streamwinner cannot "view things falsely," then how can they still have > perversions-of-perception regarding permanence, pleasurableness, and self? N: Not regarding permanence, and self. But he can still take for sukha, pleasure, what is dukkha. He still has ignorance, moha, but not micchaa di.t.thi. When the word di.t.thi is used, it sometimes represents right view, in connection with the Path. Sometimes wrong view, in connection with lobha-muula-citta, citta rooted in attachment. I think we have to stress a gradual development towards arahatship. All ariyans realize the four noble Truths at the moment of enlightenment, but there are different levels, and only the arahat realizes them fully, at the highest level, so that all defilements are eradicated. The four noble Truths are deep and difficult to see. Moha, delusion or ignorance arises with each akusala citta. The sotapanna still has akusala cittas, he can laugh, cry, die of a broken heart. He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala citta. But when the akusala citta has fallen away he can realize, with paññaa, its true nature of non-self. When we use the word delusion, we should know that this is the translation of moha, ignorance. Only the arahat has eradicated all levels of ignorance. Moha, di.t.thi and maana are different akusala cetasikas. They should be distinguished, at least to begin with, intellectually. Nina. 40262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Abhidhamma. Hi Mike. op 26-12-2004 20:47 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Sorry to have missed this the first time around, this "This is mine. This is > my self. This is what I am" from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya > XXII.59) (and many others, I think), is really valuable--I hadn't sorted > these out in this way before. Really an important distinction--is this > explained per se in the Abhidhamma? N: Book of Analysis. It is now at the bookbinders, completely read to pieces. So, I cannot give the exact location. Also many Co explain it. Nina. 40263 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:45am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 85- Volition/cetanaa (o) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** In the Jåtakas (Birth Stories, Khuddaka Nikåya) we find many examples of people who committed the same deeds again and again in successive lives. For example, Devadatta who tried to kill the Buddha had tried to kill him before, in many former lives when the Buddha was still a Bodhisatta. We read in the ‘Dhammaddhaja Jåtaka’ (220) that the Buddha said: “This is not the first time Devadatta has tried to murder me and has not even frightened me. He did the same before.” We read in the ‘Dúta Jåtaka’ (260) about a monk who was very greedy. Also in former lives he had been greedy. The Buddha said to him: “You were greedy before, monk, as you are now; and in olden days for your greed you had your head cleft with a sword.” The Buddha related a story of one of his past lives: he had such a craving for the dainty food of a king that he took a piece of rice from the king’s dish and this nearly cost him his life. After the Buddha had told this story he explained the four noble Truths and the greedy monk became an anågåmí (the noble person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment). While he listened to the Buddha he must have been mindful of nåma and rúpa and his paññå developed to the degree that all clinging to sensuous objects could be eradicated. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40264 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... > As I understand it, paramattha dhammas can indeed be the object of > akusala consciousness, and are regularly so, but in that case they are > not seen as they truly are (and the same applies for that matter when > dhammas are the object of kusala consciousness that is not accompanied > by panna, or of vipaka or kiriya consciousness). > It is for this reason that we live in a world of concepts, meaning that > we take to be real what is not in fact real but is a conceptual idea of > reality. Yes, just right-- > (For the enlightened being, conceptual thinking still occurs, > but it is not mistaken for reality.) Yes, samaasankappa of the eightfold path, then just kiriya-- > To pick up on another thread of yours, this mistaking for real what is > not real is not the same as the mental factor that is 'wrong view'. > Wrong view involves holding to a view about something, but (mis)taking > for real what is not does not necessarily involve any holding to a view; > it necesarily involves only not seeing clearly what is actually what (= > ignorance). Incredible but true (I think) that even the views of stream entrants, once-returners and non-returners are perverted, tainted and fettered... Even our grail, sammaasati, until arahatta...but di.t.thi is something else. Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential. (That's 'me'). Dhammapada 11 mike 40265 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. > Hi TG, > I see now that we cannot avoid Pali for conciseness. Lets use English and > Pali together. Dear Nina: We ought not to mix planes here. We use English and Pali together because the circunstances here got this course of events, and not, for example Pali and Russian(accursed language and accursed people! From the Oder to Kamchatka, death to all russians!) or Pali and Bahasya Indonesia (and its muslins and tsunamis). It is important to know which English word represents which > akusala cetasika. Otherwise we go in circles. One of the merits of South School of Buddhism is the care with detailed classifications. It would be a kind of challenge compose a table of concordances between english words and Kusala and Akusala cetasikas, as a Buddhistic Thesaurus ( with Russian language such task is impossible, because all russians words are akusala cetasika) Mettaya, Ícaro 40266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fierce Powers ... !!! Venerable Bhante, very impressive texts and good reminders. With respect, Nina. op 27-12-2004 05:17 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu_samahita@y...: > > > Surprise: > Death carries off the man while distracted > by gathering the flowers of sense-pleasures, > exactly & even so as a great flood carries > away a sleeping village. Dhammapada 47 > > > Off Guard: > > Death sweeps away the man distracted, > not yet had his fill of sensual pleasures, > even as he gathers these flowers. Dhammapada 48 > > > Engaged-Encaged: > > When a man is in love with sons, friends & family, > his mind is passionately absorbed therein. > So distracted, the King of Death carry him off as a > raging wave sweeps away the sleeping village. > > Dhammapada 287 40267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hi Tep, op 25-12-2004 15:44 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: quotesN: >> The mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process. >> When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, >> it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. >> Then one knows what a mind-door process exactly is, >> not before that. .... T: I am interested in the interval between the state in which "the mind-door > process is concealed by the sense-door process" and the state "when > the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama > and rupa through the mind-door". You have hinted that "it is only panna > itself that works its way". > What are the supporting conditions for panna so that it can work its way > until the first ray of insight knowledge appears? Is contemplating nama- > rupa as " not mine, not 'I', not my 'self' " both necessary and sufficient? N: That is the end result, not the beginning. Insight knowledge is not satipatthana. Satipatthana is developed any time there is mindfulness and a degree of understanding of whatever nama or rupa appears. It can develop, it can grow. Insight knowledge, even the first stage, is a result, a fruit, of the development of satipatthana. Insight knowledge consists of several moments of clearly realizing the nama and rupa that appear. I know very little about this subject but I heard this from a discussion in Hua Hin, Thailand: A. Sujin explained it this way: whatever one has learnt when a stage of insight arose has to be reviewed again and again, so that a following stage can arise. This shows us how gradual the development of insight is. Pariñña means: full understanding, but there are degrees. There are three pariññas: 1. ñaata pariñña, or full understanding of the known. This is actual from the first stage of tender insight knowledge up to the second stage, direct discernment of nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. The penetration of the specific characteristics predominates. (such as hardness, visible object, etc.) 2. tiira.na pariñña, or full understanding as investigation. This goes from the third stage of tender insight up to the first principal insight: realization of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Here the penetration of the three general characteristics predominates. 3. Pahaana pariñña, full understanding as abandoning. From the first stage of principle insight onwards. Pañña becomes more and more detached, it turns away from conditioned dhammas so that finally nibbaana, the unconditioned dhamma, can be realized. (See Vis. XX, 4). Before we know it we get lost in terms, but all this is not theory, it is practice. It is a gradual development. Sutta: K.S. IV, Ch 3 on the All, § 26, Comprehension. I mentioned this sutta some time ago. The sutta is very short but the Co explains about the three pariññas. Sutta; It is asked what all? The eye, objects, etc. Herein is the clue, the preparation you asked for. Mindfulness and understanding has to be developed of all objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. We have to know the difference between concept and reality, only realities are objects of satipatthana. The khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas. Or in short: dhammas, paramattha dhammas. Doubts may arise: how can I ever reach it. Here we could continue our thread about the hindrance of doubt. Doubt arises until we are sotapannas. Nina. 40268 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Nina Nina : (Re: Sotapanna) He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala citta. TG: Your last post on this subject is pasted at the end. What I gather from your above statement and your post below is that the only ignorance a Sotapanna has is that of the perversion of pleasure. Is that what you meant? Why would someone laugh or cry unless they had the capacity to see things in terms of self? How could someone die of a broken heart without viewing things falsely? Why would the Buddha and Sariputta stress treachings about impermanence and no-self to noble disciples (streamwinner, once-returner, non-returner)... if they have completely mastered those false views? (See following example...) The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non-returner as the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels? My only explaination is that these ways of regarding the aggregates have not been perfected by these noble disciples. TG (BTW, this back and forth has been very useful for me and I want to thank you and Sarah and others for it.) In a message dated 12/27/2004 3:04:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Hi TG, I see now that we cannot avoid Pali for conciseness. Lets use English and Pali together. It is important to know which English word represents which akusala cetasika. Otherwise we go in circles. op 27-12-2004 00:03 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > If a streamwinner cannot "view things falsely," then how can they still have > perversions-of-perception regarding permanence, pleasurableness, and self? N: Not regarding permanence, and self. But he can still take for sukha, pleasure, what is dukkha. He still has ignorance, moha, but not micchaa di.t.thi. When the word di.t.thi is used, it sometimes represents right view, in connection with the Path. Sometimes wrong view, in connection with lobha-muula-citta, citta rooted in attachment. I think we have to stress a gradual development towards arahatship. All ariyans realize the four noble Truths at the moment of enlightenment, but there are different levels, and only the arahat realizes them fully, at the highest level, so that all defilements are eradicated. The four noble Truths are deep and difficult to see. Moha, delusion or ignorance arises with each akusala citta. The sotapanna still has akusala cittas, he can laugh, cry, die of a broken heart. He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala citta. But when the akusala citta has fallen away he can realize, with paññaa, its true nature of non-self. When we use the word delusion, we should know that this is the translation of moha, ignorance. Only the arahat has eradicated all levels of ignorance. Moha, di.t.thi and maana are different akusala cetasikas. They should be distinguished, at least to begin with, intellectually. Nina. 40269 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fierce Powers ... !!! > Venerable Bhante, > very impressive texts and good reminders. > With respect, > Nina. Respectfully butting in, Nina and B.Samahita. Death is only one aspect of impermanence. "Vitae janua Mors" is only one mode of expression,like "Mors janua Vitae" (that´s latin, a language much more respectable than inutile trash, A.k.a.Russian language). The facts: at South Asia people died and muslim properties were damaged... and the Universe as a whole didn´t moved a bit for it. (well, it could continuing to behave at this way even with a russian maffiosi shouting at full power of his well feeded lungs, or shooting his top-line hand gun or paying the entire St.Petesburg Opera´s Chorus to singing a Mujik song to a telescope). Fortunately for all of us Dukkha, Anicca and anatta are well grounded truths, despite the claims fo the usual Russian "capo". Mettaya, Ícaro 40270 From: dacostacharles Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. TG, I like what you are saying in this post. However, I have to think a little more about your statement that: "... ignorance is the most fundamental delusion upon which all others are based, ..." I can see how you come to this conclusion. However, I have always believed that there is more to Delusion than just ignorance (this comes from when I use to have debates with Mahayana Buddhist -- so I could be wrong). Charles DaCosta a new comer to this group. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/26/2004 2:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: I’m rather mystified. Unless you’re giving false views here another > connotation to refer to other perversions and not to ditthi, I haven’t > seen anyone else or any sutta or comy supporting your position apart from > James (and as I say, even his position is a little different, which I’ll > respond to later). You’d have to elaborate. > > Hi Sarah > > I'm sure this is the discrepency. I am using "view"as used in English, not > as used in Pali perhaps. I am saying, that a mind that still thinks "mine," > and I am," is not free from "seeing things" in relation to a self- view. I will > call this a "sense-of-self" instead of calling it self view. Is that easier > to swallow? > > Since you brought up Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, let's look at the definition > of Ditthi... > "Ditthi (lit.: 'sight',; dis to see): View, Belief, Speculative Opinion, > Insight. > > Nyanatiloka defines Sakkaya-Ditthi as "Personality Belief." This is the > "belief" that a streamwinner eliminates. That fits with the way I see it just > fine. Is it a view?, yes, if a view is limited to being seen as a "belief." I > have been using "view" in a much broader sense than that. > > Perversions of perception... > > If ignorance is the most fundamental delusion upon which all others are > based, the question becomes -- what is ignorance ignorant of? You correctly were > pointing out ignorance is ignorant of the impermanent, suffering, and selfless > aspects of phenomena. This means ignorance still has the inherent tendency to > see things as self at some level or another. To me this means there is still > a sense-of-self. To overcome sense-of-self is the hardest delusion to > overcome, not the easiest one to overcome. > > If I descrive it in this way, does that more accord with the way you are > seeing it? > > TG 40271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Larry, op 26-12-2004 02:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: It > seems to have devolved into the question can past or future object be a > paramattha dhamma. I must say I agree with Howard that to say yes sounds > like a Sarvastivada solution which is essentially eternalistic. N: We discussed this subject with A. Sujin once, during a session about not so classifiable objects, navattabbaaramma.na. I asked about this. A dhamma that has fallen away is not a concept. It is past rupa or past nama. But it cannot be object of satipatthana which has only present objects. L: My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next. N: shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya? L:So the > object of 5-door javana, for example, would be votthapana (determining > consciousness) and the object of a following mind-door adverting would > be the preceding 5-door javana or possibly preceding tadarammana. And we > just conventionally say the object of all this is the original rupa. N: we are speaking now about a sense-door process, and these cittas experience only rupa as you also suggest. It could not be a citta. In a mind-door process arising later on a preceding citta could be the object. It does not matter that they have just fallen away. It is all so fast, for all practical purposes the characteristic of a citta just fallen away can still be the object. L: There is still a problem of past informing present which I don't see how > to resolve, even if we use the "concept" solution. Maybe we could just > say "it's magic". ;-)) N: Fortunately there is no magic. Nina. 40272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. different individuals Hi Phil, op 24-12-2004 23:04 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > >> N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways > of >> liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of > liberated >> individuals, such as body witness, etc. > > When you have a moment, could you teach me (very briefly!) about > the three ways of liberation (is that depending on which of the three > characteristics arises?) N: Three vimokkhas, liberations. Path of Discrimination, p. 265. You are right, Phil, it depends on which characteristic is predominant. When he gives attention as impermanent, the signless liberation (animitta) is dominant; when he gives attention as dukkha, the desireless (appanihita) liberation is dominant; when he gives attention asanattaa, the void liberation is dominant. But further on these are combined differently. Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence can be seen even under these three aspects. Different aspects and angles again! Now the seven individuals: in the Path of Discrimination (p. 254, etc), also in the Abhidhamma, puggala paññatti (human types) and Visuddhimagga XXI, which is summarized in Nyanatiloka dict. p.19 : faith devotee, faith-liberated one, body-witness, twice liberated, Dhamma devotee, vision-possessed, wisdom-liberated. What we can learn: individuals are very different. Some developed samatha even to the arupajhanas, some did not. But they all became noble disciples. There are no rules to be followed. Whatever we do is conditioned by our accumulations, also in former lives. Nina. 40273 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 0:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... > > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" > "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend > to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a > disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as > disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, > it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) > > This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non- returner as > the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that has > eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be > intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher > levels? Gosh, I was going to quote this sutta in a post to Sarah! You have stolen my thunder! ;-)) (just kidding). Anyway, I tire of this debate; I may just leave the baton to you. Metta, James 40274 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 0:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. different individuals > There are no rules to be followed. Dear Nina, This would be very confortable for the usual Ruski Capo de Tutti Cappi Maffiosi(Oh sorry! Will I try to keep an English/Pali use here) or to the muslim slaver: no rules of course, only the wild will of these criminals! The Russian Maffia will love it, Nina!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 40275 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 0:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. I may just leave the baton to you. You can buy it, James!!!! "Buy the Baton...Buy the Baton... you must buy the baton..." Mettaya, Ícaro 40276 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, James (and TG) - In a message dated 12/27/04 3:04:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > >stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" > >"Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should > carefully attend > >to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as > suffering, as a > >disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as > alien, as > >disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu > who is a > >stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates > subject to clinging, > >it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." > (Connected > >Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) > > > >This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non- > returner as > >the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that > has > >eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and > no-self, need to be > >intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to > attain higher > >levels? > > > Gosh, I was going to quote this sutta in a post to Sarah! You have > stolen my thunder! ;-)) (just kidding). Anyway, I tire of this > debate; I may just leave the baton to you. > > Metta, > James > ======================== TG, you questioned "Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels?" The answer, IMO, is that even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. Only is an arahant completely free of sense of self in the conventional person and in all dhammas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40277 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, James & TG - I omitted the important word 'not' in the following! ;-)) It should read "... has NOT eliminated ... ." With metta, Howard > The > answer, IMO, is that even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, > > because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40278 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. In a message dated 12/27/2004 12:23:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: TG, you questioned "Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels?" The answer, IMO, is that even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. Only is an arahant completely free of sense of self in the conventional person and in all dhammas. With metta, Howard Hi Howard The question is a "rhetorical" to try to find out how Nina is coming to the conclusion that a streamwinner, once-returner, and non-returner, has no pervervion-of-perception concerning self and permanence. I agree completely and this is what I have been arguing for the last week. I hand the baton to you. LOL TG 40279 From: Raymond Hendrickson Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand I am also thinking of those in S.E. Asia. There are some excellent sources for giving helping on the CNN and MSNBC websites. If others know of groups not mentioned on those web sites, this might be a good place to put the links....Metta...Ray > [Original Message] > From: christine_forsyth > To: > Date: 12/26/2004 12:38:50 AM > Subject: [dsg] Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand > > > > Thinking of all our friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and > elsewhere in S.E. Asia with metta and karuna after hearing of the > earthquakes and resultant Tsunamis. May you and your relatives all > stay safe and well. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40280 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/27/04 4:19:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > The question is a "rhetorical" to try to find out how Nina is coming to the > conclusion that a streamwinner, once-returner, and non-returner, has no > pervervion-of-perception concerning self and permanence. I agree completely > and this > is what I have been arguing for the last week. I hand the baton to you. > LOL > > TG > ===================== Ah, I see. Well, I agree that until arahanthood there is still perversion of perception. But that isn't quite what is meant by "wrong view", the "wrong view" that is eliminated at stream entry. That "wrong view", as I understand it, is a matter of *belief*. Once one is a stream entrant there is no longer any possibility of *belief* in self or in the efficacy of mere rules and rituals nor is there any sceptical doubt with regard to the Buddha and his Dhamma. What is uprooted then is the possibility of such beliefs - because one has SEEN! But other defilements, including *sense* of self, remain. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40281 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:35:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Ah, I see. Well, I agree that until arahanthood there is still perversion of perception. But that isn't quite what is meant by "wrong view", the "wrong view" that is eliminated at stream entry. That "wrong view", as I understand it, is a matter of *belief*. Once one is a stream entrant there is no longer any possibility of *belief* in self or in the efficacy of mere rules and rituals nor is there any sceptical doubt with regard to the Buddha and his Dhamma. What is uprooted then is the possibility of such beliefs - because one has SEEN! But other defilements, including *sense* of self, remain. With metta, Howard Hi again Howard. That is exactly what I have been arguing for this last week. Nina (and I think Sarah) seem to making the point that a streamwinner has completely, and in all respects, eliminated any kind of sense-of-self of sense-of-permanence. I'm still trying to clarify how this can be. TG 40282 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/27/04 7:10:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > > Hi again Howard. > > That is exactly what I have been arguing for this last week. Nina (and I > think Sarah) seem to making the point that a streamwinner has completely, > and in > all respects, eliminated any kind of sense-of-self of sense-of-permanence. > I'm still trying to clarify how this can be. > > TG > ================= I'm sure this is not a difference in content but in terminology. I'm certain that Nina and Sarah are aware that the *sense* of self only fully goes with complete enlightenment. The last fetter to go is avijja, which can be understood as the disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40283 From: Philip Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:42pm Subject: Re: Q. different individuals Hello Nina, and all > >> N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways > > of > >> liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of > > liberated > >> individuals, such as body witness, etc. > > > > When you have a moment, could you teach me (very briefly!) about > > the three ways of liberation (is that depending on which of the three > > characteristics arises?) > N: Three vimokkhas, liberations. Path of Discrimination, p. 265. > You are right, Phil, it depends on which characteristic is predominant. When > he gives attention as impermanent, the signless liberation (animitta) is > dominant; when he gives attention as dukkha, the desireless (appanihita) > liberation is dominant; when he gives attention asanattaa, the void > liberation is dominant. > But further on these are combined differently. Knowledge of contemplation of > impermanence can be seen even under these three aspects. Different aspects > and angles again! Phil: All these different aspects and angles offer us different aspects and angles by which to move toward detachment. I feel so grateful for this wealth, whether it is found in the Suttanta, or Abhidhamma, or in the commentaries. Am I right in assuming that once we know in theory about this arising of the characteristics at enlightenment, that it is not necessary to consider which characteristic one is most likely to experience? Well, that's an obvious question - the answer is "yes Phil, you're right. No need to think about that." (I can see myself thinking, "well, I understand impermanence - that's an easy one - I had better concentrate on suffering until spring comes, and then maybe move on to anatta after that.") 2> Now the seven individuals: in the Path of Discrimination (p. 254, etc), also > in the Abhidhamma, puggala paññatti (human types) and Visuddhimagga XXI, > which is summarized in Nyanatiloka dict. p.19 : > faith devotee, faith-liberated one, body-witness, twice liberated, Dhamma > devotee, vision-possessed, wisdom-liberated. > What we can learn: individuals are very different. Some developed samatha > even to the arupajhanas, some did not. But they all became noble disciples. > There are no rules to be followed. Whatever we do is conditioned by our > accumulations, also in former lives. Phil: Again, I assume that for the beginner or "uninstructed worlding" such as myself there is no need to think about the above too much, though it's good to understand in theory. On the other hand, I *might* benefit from considering another way of classifying individuals by tendencies - a simpler way - based on the hetus. I quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial note #47 in the Khandasamyutta: "The verb anuseti implies anusaya, the seven underlying tendencies (see SN 4:175) or, more simply, the three underlying teddencies of lust, aversion and ignorance. Spk: If one has an underlying tendency towards form by way of sensual lust, etc., then one is described in terms of that same underlying tendency as "lustful etc." But when that underlying tendency is absent, one is not reckoned thus." Yet again, for the beginner there is such danger in thinking too much about what kind of person one is because it invites wrong view of self as fixed. But there *are* tendencies, and the verb "usually" is used in the translation of one sutta (can't dig it up at the moment) to encourage us to consider what we "usually" think about. Is it possible to know where one's tendencies lie and is this encouraged by the Buddha? Yes. Is it easy to take advantage of knowing where one's tendencies lie in a skillful way? No. More opportunity to cultivate patience here. (Sorry for any redundancy here - I know there has been a long thread related to the tendencies but I haven't had time to follow it.) BTW, what does everyone think about this next bit of the Bhikkhu's commentary?: "Additionally, we might suppose, one is reckoned not only by way of the defilements, but even more prominently by way of the aggregate with which one principally identifies. One who inclines to form is reckoned a "physical" person, one who inclines to feeling a "hedonist", one who inclines to perception "an aesthete" (or fact- gatherer?) -- one who inclines to volition a "man of action" one who inclines to consciousness a thinker etc." Is this commentary just speculation on the Bhikkhu's part or is there any such teaching? I must respectfully say that it sounds a bit dubious. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks for all your great feedback in other threads, Nina. I don't have time to respond to it all now, but it will be gathered and printed out for reflection. I feel so very grateful to be getting so much helpful guidance from you! (And from others, of course.) 40284 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Larry: "My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next." Nina: "shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya?" Hi Nina, This works for me if we understand that a particular votthapana citta conditions a particular javana citta. Although it is still a mystery how that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and each citta modifies that information. We could say the information is _about_ an object but it makes me nervous to think that two dhammas are in the same place at the same time as subject and object, particularly when there is a 5-door process followed by a mind-door process. Maybe it is more like gossip being passed from one person to another rather than scientific analysis. One problem is what does contact (phassa) contact. Votthapana conditions javana but it doesn't contact it. If they both contact the rupa what is accomplished? They can't cognize the rupa like sense consciousness. In a mind-door process what does the javana contact? Mind-door adverting is gone when it arises. Is contact the sequential arising of adverting and javana in the mind-door? Is the mind-door the base for 5-door process after the initial contact between external rupa and sensitive matter? Maybe contact has to do with cognitively maintaining the same object but accumulating information is more a matter of conditioned arising raher than passing information through contact as initially happens with external object and sensitive matter. These two rupas can arise at the same time, unlike two consciousnesses. Larry 40285 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Hi Joop, In order to find one time that is applicable to both nama and rupa maybe we have to look for the characteristics of the four primary elements in the four nama khandhas. Earth, Water, Fire, Air Texture, Coherence, Causation, Energy Feeling, Perception, Formation, Consciousness Following the idea that the water element is time, we could say coherence (relatedness) of different events is time. However, perception only perceives similarity. Insight understands difference in similarity. Insight is a factor of causation. So we need both fire and water to make time, similarity and difference. Plus, fire is responsible for there being multiple events in the first place. Those events are events of texture (feeling) and have an aspect of solidity or reality. Energy drives this whole machine and, in some sense, _is_ the machine, as it manifests as the continuity of these processes (sandhaana)*. So, there you have it, time. Time is reality, but only part of reality. The other part is timeless. Larry * See CMA p. 29 for characteristics of consciousness. 40286 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Sarah, Catching up: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:27 PM Subject: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) >...proper attention (yoniso > manasikara) fortunately doesn't depend or not depend on our making any > gaffes. I remember feeling embarrassed when I realised I'd got the Chucks > mixed up, but even at such a time there can be wise attention and > awareness of such embarrassment, conceit and other unwholesome qualities - > none of them 'Me' fortunately;-). Right! >...Surely, when the universals such as phassa and vedana arise with akusala > cittas, they are akusala and their qualities are inherently different from > those arising with sobhana cittas? I don't think so--they are 'known by the company they keep' I think, that is they are designated akusala or sobha.na depending on the various conditions (hetu etc.) and on the other cetasikas that arise with them--unless I'm simply wrong, of course. > In other words, they are of the same > jati as the cittas and other cetasikas they arise with and therefore vary > considerably accordingly. In one context 'jaati' means 'birth' or 'rebirth' and in another, 'kind' or 'sort'. (The jaati of pa.tisandhi e.g. can be kusala (must be for us) but we still experience all 'kinds' or 'sorts' of cittas/cetasikas.) The fact that the jaati is the same (meaning 'kind' or 'sort' in this case) doesn't change the function of the phassa or vedanaa, whether momentarily or over a lifetime--or so it seems to me. > In other words, phassa and vedana can be kusala, > akusala, vipaka or kiriya even though they still have the common > characteristics of contacting or feeling. Don't all 'actually' kusala and akusala kammas occur in javana processes? While attending any of these, it seems to me that vedanaa and phassa always have exactly the same function, to feel and to contact. When attending vipakka, they, like the vipakka, seem to me to be called 'akusala' or 'kusala' only as a designation, like 'akusala vipakka'. In other words, isn't the vipakka actually avyaakata and called kusala or akusala based only on the kamma of which it is the result? In other words, I guess I think of them as essentially neutral agents. If I'm misunderstanding this I'm doing so in some detail and would appreciate the correction. > (In the section on vedana from > 'Cetasikas' there were some examples such as how the pleasant feeling > accompanying cittas rooted in lobha is quite different from the pleasant > feeling accompanying cittas rooted in generosity). I think the experience 'feels' different--but not because sukha vedanaa is itself different, but rather because it is attended by different cetasikas (like lobha 'sticking like meat in a hot pan' e.g.). > Furthermore, I understand the cetasikas to condition each other as well as > the citta they accompany Yes, but in what way? That is, mightn't they be conascent or whatever but without actually changing each other? I DO think of co-arising cetasikas as (at least sometimes) conditioning each other, but not as changing each other in any way. Of course, I may be completely wrong about this... > and anusayas (latent defilement tendencies) to be > carried by the accompanying cetasikas (not just those listed under > anusayas such as greed or conceit), as well as by the cittas. 'Carried'--really! Is this consistent with the Paali texts? (Silly question, probably...) > For example, > when greed accumulates, there is also the tendency to have a certain kind > of pleasant feeling on account of certain objects I can see that pleasant feeling differs in terms of pleasant tastes, smells, thoughts etc., that is that the experience partakes of pleasant feeling together with a particular door, base, object etc.--but it still seems to me that it's the overall experience that differs and not its individual components. > and for sanna and phassa > to mark and contact these objects at the same time, all conditioning each > other by sahajata paccaya I believe. Yes, this is conascence condition isn't it? So as above. > Mike, I'd be very glad for any comments you might add here - it's not a > simple matter at all. No--thanks for helping me to work this out. The fact that my ideas about this seem rather fixed strikes me as ominous. > Also, you mentioned' the correlation between the (akusala) javana process, > akusala kamma and pa.ticcasamuppaada. The second link, sankhara, refers to > abhisankhara or kamma of the degree of kamma patha that can bring results > of the degree of rebirth consciousness. Isn't pa.ticcasamuppaada operant at a kha.nika level? This is another old opinion of mine, that sankhaara and the other links are not once-in-a-lifetime occurrences but occur with every single contact etc., in other words truly countless times every day. If it's a bad one, guess it's time I got over it...some Paali texts would help if this notion does want debunking... > This is the condition for vinnana > or consciousness of course. Of course--but for every dvipa~ncavi~n~naa.na, constantly, no? > But kamma cannot bring its resuilt without > the assistance of many other conditions, particularly decisive support > condition and this of course is the way that accumulated latent tendencies > perpetuate or accumulate in the flow of cittas, including vipaka cittas. This all seems just right. I've been going over the paccaya chapter of STA, they just get more and more interesting. > Have I missed the point? I doubt it--I may have! > There's a lot of great detail in ch 6 of Dispeller, Classification of the > Structure of Conditions. Please let me know if I've missed your points at > all or if anything here seems questionable or wrong! I always value your > comments and opinions of course., so don't retreat into lurker-land!! Thanks Sarah, yes it was the Dispeller that you and Jon sent me ages ago. I'll get it out and try to make more sense of all this. Thanks for all the help. mike 40287 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MIke- Wise attention & Infections : -> Hi Azita, ----- Original Message ----- From: "gazita2002" To: Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:56 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: MIke- Wise attention & Infections : -> > I relate to this "lurkers' dilemma", so smiled when I read > this post Mike. Glad to've been amusing, at least...! > For me, your posts are pleasing to read and helpful, so I join > with Sarah here and ask you not to lurk for too long. Thanks, as you see my resolution was short-lived (as mine usually are...) > It is hard for me to keep up with all the posts, and when I do > read one that I want to reply to, I often take a while to construct > my comment and by then it seems too late. I know the feeling well, in fact am experiencing it presently... > It is wonderful that we are all different, just imagine if we > were all prolific posters.......my head would surely explode! The effect on your keyboard alone is too dreadful to imagine. Cheers, mike 40288 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 2:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. > Hi Mike, > Oh no! Don't lurk!!! > If you flag mails you want to answer you may not come to actually write. You're right, I've proven that many times Nina so here you are and Een Gulukkig Niewjaar Voor Ledereen! mike 40289 From: shakti Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sudden Change -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote:Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. mike Dear Mike and others, living at sea level as I do, and often threatened by cyclones, the thought occurs to me during the cyclone season, that maybe I won't be here when the cyclone has gone. It is a stark reminder as you say, Mike, but if only we could remember this every day bec. destruction and mayhem can strike so suddenly, anytime, anywhere. May those beings affected by this disaster, not have to suffer for long. Patience, courage and good cheerAzita__________________________________________________ Dear Friends in SE Asia, My thoughts and good wishes are with all of you effected by the earthquakes and tsunami. May you and your families be safe and free from danger. This is such a stark reminder of the fragility of life. One never knows what the next moment will bring. With metta, Shakti 40290 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Simon and friend :-) Hello James (and Simon), Nice picture in the 'Significant Others' folder James, of you and Simon. :-) What a cutie Simon is! What are his particulars ... breed, age, and where did you get him? What's his personality like? Just asking these on behalf of Rusty you understand. :-) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40291 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 0:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, TG - Ah, I see. Well, I agree that until arahanthood there is still > perversion of perception. But that isn't quite what is meant by "wrong view", the > "wrong view" that is eliminated at stream entry. That "wrong view", as I > understand it, is a matter of *belief*. Once one is a stream entrant there is no > longer any possibility of *belief* in self or in the efficacy of mere rules and > rituals nor is there any sceptical doubt with regard to the Buddha and his > Dhamma. What is uprooted then is the possibility of such beliefs - because one has > SEEN! But other defilements, including *sense* of self, remain. > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard, According to my reading of the suttas, the Buddha would sometimes teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at those times. What do you think: Did the sotapannas have a *belief* in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that belief a `wrong view'? Metta, James 40292 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi all, I am new to this forum. I saw this and felt it was a good chance to get started. My pali sucks and often my dictionaries do too so bare with me if it seems I don't know what you are talking about when pali is used. Larry you said: {... Although it is still a mystery how that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and each citta modifies that information. We could say the information is _about_ an object but it makes me nervous to think that two dhammas are in the same place at the same time as subject and object, particularly when there is a 5-door process followed by a mind-door process. Maybe it is more like gossip being passed from one person to another rather than scientific analysis. } If you believe there are levels of thinking outside of conscious awareness (i.e., unconscious, subconscious, etc. what ever) then you will have a second place where "Information is conveyed from one citta (thought) to another and each citta modifies that information." And, "two dhammas can appear to be in the same place at the same time as subject and object, ..." particularly when there are 6 entry points (the six sense gates). The idea of multiple dhammas being present proves the dhamma (i.e., object) is compounded. The object in the case of a subject and object being present is really the "sentence." And focus can change so that you can also "see" (realize) there is subject and object too. I was taught that "Contact contacts a thought only, and the though is a concoction of the desired object." This is explained by the fact that if there is no representation of an object in the mind, you can't cling to it. In your mind, it will not exist. Charles DaCosta ----- Original Message ----- From: LBIDD@w... <...> Larry: "My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next." Nina: "shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya?" Hi Nina, This works for me if we understand that a particular votthapana citta conditions a particular javana citta. Although it is still a mystery how that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and each citta modifies that information. We could say the information is _about_ an object but it makes me nervous to think that two dhammas are in the same place at the same time as subject and object, particularly when there is a 5-door process followed by a mind-door process. Maybe it is more like gossip being passed from one person to another rather than scientific analysis. One problem is what does contact (phassa) contact. <...> 40293 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi all, I think TG asked: {Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be instructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels?} Ignorance is not the only problem; things like: laziness, forgetfulness, temptation, lack of mindfulness, etc. will also rob you of fruition. "Seeing" (realizing, understanding) the teachings is only part of the problem. This is pointed to by the fact that, according to the 8-fold path, morality and concentration (self-discipline) are also important, not just wisdom. Charles D ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:01 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... > > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" > "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend > to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a > disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as > disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, > it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) <....> 40294 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:07pm Subject: Certain Confidence ... !!! Friends: The Four Kinds of Faith (Saddha): 1: Faith as Resort: The resort, refuge, recourse & resource here is the actual reality of the perfectly supreme Enlightenment of the Buddha 2531 years ago! 2: Faith as Attainment: Is the quite Noble achievement of eradicating all Sceptical Doubt in the Buddha's awakening, his Dhamma & the Noble Sangha. Emergence of such irreversible & imperturbable conviction is entering the stream to Nibbana. (Sottapatti) 3: Faith as Serenity: Is the tranquil Joy that emerges when thinking on the Buddha, Dhamma & the Noble Sangha... Or when one offers or bows before a Shrine, or when worshipping an worthy Elder Thera. 4: Faith as Trust: Is the Stable Calm one gets after Deciding with firm Determination to place Trust and Confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha, without giving up any criteria of verification by direct personal experience after training! Faith is the first of five Spiritual Abilities! Faith is the first of five Spiritual Powers! Source: The Buddha's Last Days. Commentary on the DN16: The Mahaparinibbana Sutta.The Great Going Beyond: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=134059 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40295 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: Simon and friend :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello James (and Simon), > > Nice picture in the 'Significant Others' folder James, of you and > Simon. :-) What a cutie Simon is! > What are his particulars ... breed, age, and where did you get him? > What's his personality like? Just asking these on behalf of Rusty > you understand. :-) > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta and peace, > Christine Friend Christine, ;-)) Thanks for asking about Simon. He is in my shirt pocket right now as I type this! ;-)) I got Simon at a local pet store here in Cairo. He is a Siamese mix I had quite an experience after buying him at a pet store. He almost died because he was too young to be taken from his mother, unbeknownst to me (4 weeks). I had to take him to the vet several times to get fluids in him because his temperature dropped too quickly. Thankfully he is okay now and very playful. I have to keep him next to me all the time to keep him warm. You know, he taught me something recently about the fragility of life. I was very worried about him dying and did my best to keep him alive, and then I read about how earthquakes in Asia, and subsequent tidal waves, killed over 22,000 people so quickly. It0is a really sad situation and I almost want to take some days of silence to grieve for them; and yet I can't feel too sad because MY kitten survived and is alive. There is life and death, life and death, over and over again. Lessons to make one let go just a little bit more…. Metta, James ps. Simon says Hi to Rusty! ;-) 40296 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Charles, Welcome to DSG - I'm glad to see you've made yourself at home and you're already contributing to different threads. --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I am new to this forum. I saw this and felt it was a good chance to get > started. My pali sucks and often my dictionaries do too so bare with me > if it seems I don't know what you are talking about when pali is used. ... Do ask for further explanations anytime - you'll be doing everyone a favour. Also you may like to print out the simple Pali glossary in the Files section to have handy. I'm sure you're also familiar with the Nyantiloka dictionary on line which is very handy too for key terms. Also, if you wish to scroll through any of the archives or search anytime, we have the archives in a back-up site here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ I'll look forward to talking further - I'm a bit rushed these few days and for now all the batons are in other good hands;-). By the way, we'd be glad if you'd share anything else on your background/interest in Dhamma such as where you live. Metta, Sarah ======= 40297 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:11am Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, Herman and all Jon, you replied to Herman re the value of thinking about matters being dicussed on list. He had said that during the period that he wasn't posting, there was less thinking of these matter. Jon: > On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and > particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking > down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development > (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). It's an interesting matter. I do notice that during the days on which I have not been posting, there is less thinking about Dhamma and *possibly* more bare awareness. It is still shallow awareness, but I don't get caught up in concepts to quite the same degree. I found this the other day, from the Devasamyutta (SN I.20) "Being who perceive what can be expressed become established in what can be expressed Not fully understanding what can be expressed they come under the yoke of death." Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes say this about the above: "What can be expressed are the five aggregates. (snip) When ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are affected by the ideas of permanence, pleasure and self, elsewhere called "distortions." (vipasalla) These distorted perceptions then provoke the defilements, on account of which beings "become established in what can be expressed." I take this to mean that because of defilements, our thinking about the aggregates can just subtly strengthen our clinging to them if we're not aware of the danger of thinking too much. I think this is why I was so encouraged and calmed-down by hearing that audio clip of K Sujin, and I think this is why she always gets people back to asking themselves about the realities of them moment. It must be frustrating in a sense for beginners to discuss Dhamma with her because we have all our speculative theories that we carry around with us from reading, and want to have them confirmed, but she spares us from that. Nina is also very helpful there. On the other hand, as you remind us here, the Buddha did stress the importance of Dhamma friendhsip and discussion: Jon: >There are > plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been > heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part > of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. > > Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking > about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very > kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim > withdrawing from this kind of thinking. But we have to remain well aware of the dangers of too much thinking as well. After all, we know the way dosa and lobha lead us to remove our attention from the present object. There are so many times during my busy days that I take shelter in Dhamma thoughts when things are unpleasant - when I feel anxiety, or irritation, or fatigue. Of course it's good that I don't let myself be carried away with the akusala thoughts, but I am aware of a tendency to run away from them into thoughts about the Buddha and his teaching. If I always do that I will not come to see that all feelings and thoughts are annica, dukkha and anatta, and I will not be liberated from them in a more lasting way. More middle way. Having access to the audio of talks with K Sujin will help me a lot with my accumulated tendency to read read read and think think think. Metta, Phil 40298 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:45am Subject: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew L, As I said (off-list), I was really glad to hear from you and to hear of your continued keen interest in the Abhidhamma too. Thank you for allowing me to reply to your letter on list. I hope others also add their comments on any of your good questions too. You have many friends here as I mentioned. …. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I know I haven't been active in DSG the past few months.. I wasn't > sure where Abhidharma fit in, especially in the context of the four > foundations of mindfulness. I have been wanting to practise from a > practise guide I have (Swallowing the River Ganges, by Michael > Flicksteni), but it hasn't been so easy, so I've looked at a few > titles from the book's bibliography. The one I've gotten so far is "A > Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidharma" by Bhikku Bodhi. …. S: Many of us refer to this text a lot on DSG…I think I even recommended it to you before when you asked about Abhidhamma texts. It is a translation of a very famous compendium of Abhidhamma (the Abhidhammattha Sangaha), a summary of the main Abhidhamma texts which has been referred to my Theravada communities for centuries. (See B.Bodhi’s intro). B.Bodhi has also compile helpful extra notes based on the commentaries. The four foundations of mindfulness are simply various namas and rupas as classified in this text. The Abhidhamma reading helps one to understand them better. Do ask any questions. …. >It goes through > the different types of consciousness from the perspective of it as a > science, although it does sometimes include examples of how each > consciousness might manifest itself in daily life -- similar to Nina's > works in that respect, but the book describes their nature in a more > precise manner. It does contain information and charts on the seven > stages of purificiation and insight knowledges, but not about the > nature or conditions of insight knowledges as I had hoped. …. S: I think you’ll find it’s all contained there in various sections. For example, ch V111 on Conditions. It’s not simple, I agree. There are various factors and conditions involved, such as natural decisive support condition which explains how wisdom can be accumulated in order for it to become insight knowledge. No self involved. I’d be happy to go through this or any section with you. I’m sure I’d learn a lot. Very precise as you say. …. > Do you think it would be possible to apply my knowledge of the > different types of citta and cetasikas as the third foundation of > mindfulness, which Ven. U Silananda, in his book, "The Four > Foundations of Mindfulness" states (he writes very briefly for this > stage and says knowledge of abhidharma is necssary). And then go on > with contemplation of body, four elements, and mindfulness of > feelings, and dhammas. …. S: I think it helps a lot to learn about all kinds of citta, cetasikas and rupas too, but one can read about them in any order. The most important thing is to clearly understand the distinction between namas (cittas and cetasikas) and rupas so that there isn’t any confusion or idea of self mixed up in them. We don’t need to think of an order of application or of applying anything. Let it happen naturally, otherwise the strong will and wish will be an impediment to awareness in itself. …. >If not, this book probably contains enough > that I could put together a better understanding in combination with > other materials I have than I could have with the works alone. > > Tell me what you think. … S: I agree with you. I think this text contains everything we need to know IF we read it wisely and don’t try to memorise lists or experience particular states we’re reading about. As I mentioned, the charts were done by U Silananda, so you may find these helpful as well, though I’m not really a chart person myself. Having said that, I’m looking as I write at a helpful section on the 3 Rounds in ch V111, #8 with a useful little chart: “The three rounds exhibit the cyclic pattern of existence in samsara. The most fundamental round is the round of defilements. Blinded by ignorance and driven by craving, a person engages in various unwholesome and mundane wholesome activities. Thus the round of defilements gives rise to the round of kamma. When this kamma matures it ripens in the resultants, and thus the round of kamma gives rise to the round of resultants,. In response to these resultants – the pleasant and painful fruits of his own actions – the person still immersed in ignorance is overcome by craving to enjoy more pleasant experiences, clings to those he already has, and tries to avoid the painful ones. Thus the round of resultants generates another round of defilements. In this way the three-fold round turns incessantly until the ignorance at its base is removed by the wisdom of insight and the supramundane paths.” ***** You’ll ask me how such wisdom of insight arises and it is by discussing, considering and being aware of dhammas (realities) as they appear now in daily life without any special selection or choosing. Understanding these dhammas with detachment from whatever is being experienced is the way that we’ll be less blinded by ignorance as I see it. Let me know how this sounds and if there are any parts of the book you’ve been looking at. I’m very interested to hear your comments and I know everyone will be very glad to hear from you again, Andrew. Just take your time to settle back. …. > Thanks, > A.L. … Metta, Sarah ======= 40299 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi again Andrew. --- "Andrew C. Levin" wrote: > > > Sarah, > > This was not the only reason, my inability to see where Abhidharma fit > in. It did seem like a different path though, one that I couldn't quite > get enough of a feel for to be certain it was the one for me, but after > reading the Introduction and first chapter of ACM I can get an idea of > how valuable it may be. .... S: I think the Abhidhamma is very, very useful (indispensible imho), but only if one sees it referring to the present experiences in life. You mentioned you've had a pretty tough time for the last couple of months or so and I was very sorry to hear this. But even at such times, there are still only cittas,cetasikas and rupas and it helps a lot to realize this. No Andrew at all;-). I'm so glad that things are looking better now.So much depends on our mental attitude don't you think? If we're lost or fixated in a story about what is seen or heard, for example, there is no awareness at all of any of those namas or rupas (mental or physical realities) appearing. So our goal is not to find another reality or truth, but to understand the ones being experienced right now. Slowly, slowly. As I said, I'm very glad to hear from you in good form and I know Nina and everyone else will be so glad too. (Jon sends his warm regards).I know there will be ups and downs, but please let us all support each other with the Dhamma here. It is the only long term solution. Thank you again for writing and letting me share some of your letter with your good friends on DSG. Metta, Sarah ======= 40300 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, James - In a message dated 12/28/04 3:17:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard, > > According to my reading of the suttas, the Buddha would sometimes > teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move > the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One > could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at > those times. What do you think: Did the sotapannas have a *belief* > in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that > belief a `wrong view'? > > Metta, > James > ========================= I haven't any assurance as to what people at that time actually believed. There are plenty of people who go to churches, synagogues, and temples today who read about and even pray to a creator god who bestows good or bad fortune. I'm not sure how many of them really *believe* in such a being. In any case, the wrong views that a stream entrant is disabused of are rather specific: existence of self, undependability of the tiratana, and dependability of rite & ritual as a means of salvation. On the other hand, I have little doubt that most of the populace believed the Mount Sumeru cosmology extant at the time. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40301 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi, Andrew - I'm just writing to add my words of greeting to Sarah's below. I'm really happy to have you back on DSG, and I'm pleased that all goes well with you. With regard to Abhidhamma, I'm not much for all the detail, I question its origins, and I don't "buy" everything I come across in it ;-)), but I must say, and I really emphasize this, that its overall perspective has been very useful to me, and I am a better Buddhist for having been exposed to it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/28/04 5:02:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi again Andrew. > > --- "Andrew C. Levin" wrote: > > > > > >Sarah, > > > >This was not the only reason, my inability to see where Abhidharma fit > >in. It did seem like a different path though, one that I couldn't quite > >get enough of a feel for to be certain it was the one for me, but after > >reading the Introduction and first chapter of ACM I can get an idea of > >how valuable it may be. > .... > S: I think the Abhidhamma is very, very useful (indispensible imho), but > only if one sees it referring to the present experiences in life. You > mentioned you've had a pretty tough time for the last couple of months or > so and I was very sorry to hear this. But even at such times, there are > still only cittas,cetasikas and rupas and it helps a lot to realize this. > No Andrew at all;-). > > I'm so glad that things are looking better now.So much depends on our > mental attitude don't you think? If we're lost or fixated in a story about > what is seen or heard, for example, there is no awareness at all of any of > those namas or rupas (mental or physical realities) appearing. > > So our goal is not to find another reality or truth, but to understand the > ones being experienced right now. Slowly, slowly. > > As I said, I'm very glad to hear from you in good form and I know Nina and > everyone else will be so glad too. (Jon sends his warm regards).I know > there will be ups and downs, but please let us all support each other with > the Dhamma here. It is the only long term solution. > > Thank you again for writing and letting me share some of your letter with > your good friends on DSG. > > Metta, > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40302 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Howard, Howard: In any case, the wrong views that a stream entrant is disabused of are rather specific: existence of self, undependability of the tiratana, and dependability of rite & ritual as a means of salvation. James: I agree with you here. My argument has been with those who use the commentaries to state that ALL wrong views are eliminated by the sotapanna. That is not what the Buddha stated and no one has produced a sutta quote yet. Now, if the sotapanna in the Buddha's time had the view that the sun and moon were moved by gods in the heavens, that was a wrong view, belief, ditthi, or whatever you want to call it (which I don't believe the Buddha had because he was omniscient; but he didn't mind using these beliefs if they were effective teaching tools…after all, there were many things he didn't teach, gravity and solar systems being one of them.). Metta, James 40303 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Time is reality, but only part of reality. The other > part is timeless. Hi Larry! Your definition of time clashes with Visudhimagga´s, Chp.XIV n.71 and Chp.XVII, n.3 (BPS Pariyatti edition). Mettaya, Ícaro 40304 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Time is reality, but only part of reality. The other > > part is timeless. > > > Hi Larry! > Your definition of time clashes with Visudhimagga´s, Chp.XIV n.71 > and Chp.XVII, n.3 (BPS Pariyatti edition). > > Mettaya, Ícaro Hallo Icaro Your message is not clear: a. Perhaps it's not to difficult for you to give an abstract of the passages you're thinking of b. Why do they clah ? c. And if they clash with the definition of Larry, who is right: Larry or Buddhaghosa ? Are you an expert in the philosophy of time ? Metta Joop 40305 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L, and Howard Dear Andrew L, Sarah, Nina, Mike, Robert K, Howard and all How are you? As you are all educated westerners, I am sure you would have at least a nodding understanding of science. Every field of science has the same behaviors, namely, study of basic units of reality relevant to that filed and how we can manipulate them through legitimate methods, which usually involve the optimal use of conditions for, and relations between, those realitiy units. If new comers to Gotama's Taming System (Saasanaa), commonly known as Theravada Buddhism, are able to keep in mind the above behaviors of sciences, they would have more appreciation of the Buddha's teachings in general and the Third Pitaka in particular, namely, Abhidhamma Pitaka. Every teaching segment of the Buddha deals with reality units and how to manipulate them. If any of you found them to be otherwise, please report that particular segment to me. I will discuss the matter further to your satisfaction. And any teaching segment of the Buddha that highlights reality units, their conditions and relations is abhidhamma in disguise, and can be shown to support the Third Pitaka. To my knowledge, the most essential teachings of the Buddha found in Suttam Pitaka deal with reality units and different approaches to their manipulation. Thus, any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma in disguise. Now, Howard, the origin of Abhidhamma Pitaka is Gotama the Buddha as the Three Pitakas are coherent system of teachings involving the reality units, their conditions and relations in various ways of presentation for the sole purpose of taming and transforming our minds for eventual awakening. Andrew L, as any Suttam you read is abhidhamma in another format, direct study of abhidhamma texts proper will get you to unusual heights of insight. So keep up the good work! :-) With regards Suan www.bodhiology.org -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Andrew L, As I said (off-list), I was really glad to hear from you and to hear of your continued keen interest in the Abhidhamma too. Thank you for allowing me to reply to your letter on list. I hope others also add their comments on any of your good questions too. You have many friends here as I mentioned. …. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I know I haven't been active in DSG the past few months.. I wasn't > sure where Abhidharma fit in, especially in the context of the four > foundations of mindfulness. I have been wanting to practise from a > practise guide I have (Swallowing the River Ganges, by Michael > Flicksteni), but it hasn't been so easy, so I've looked at a few > titles from the book's bibliography. The one I've gotten so far is "A > Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidharma" by Bhikku Bodhi. …. S: Many of us refer to this text a lot on DSG…I think I even recommended it to you before when you asked about Abhidhamma texts. It is a translation of a very famous compendium of Abhidhamma (the Abhidhammattha Sangaha), a summary of the main Abhidhamma texts which has been referred to my Theravada communities for centuries. (See B.Bodhi's intro). B.Bodhi has also compile helpful extra notes based on the commentaries. > Thanks, > A.L. … Metta, Sarah ======= 40306 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? > > Your message is not clear: > a. Perhaps it's not to difficult for you to give an abstract of the > passages you're thinking of > b. Why do they clah ? I will try to clarify it, pal. At Visuddhimagga, chapters VII, XIV and XVII, Buddhaghosa stated clearly that time is a mode of extension, somewhat similar to space, bounded at its extremes by impermanent events. Our good Larry matches time with water categories, for example, and it has a consequence: you get time as a category limited, with time and "no- time", as water bounded by air or solid matter. Time is real, space is real and their borders ( events) take us not to a "no-time" domain, but to another time or space segment. At my readings of Buddhaghosa´s Visuddhimagga, mainly at BPS Pariyatti notes, it had seemed to me perfectly clear. > c. And if they clash with the definition of Larry, who is right: > Larry or Buddhaghosa ? If we are discussing Buddhaghosa´s text, Buddhaghosa is the rule. But if Larry has some "Critique" about it, grounded on scientific propositions, that would be interesting comparing it out with Buddhaghosa´s work, that´s very clever in this questions. > > Are you an expert in the philosophy of time ? Ah...don´t. I am only a layman on these matters... Mettaya, Ícaro 40307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. Hi Mike, thanks for delurking and good wishes. The same to you! May it be a year full of Dhamma. How do you know dutch?? Nina. op 28-12-2004 04:17 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > You're right, I've proven that many times Nina so here you are and > > Een Gulukkig Niewjaar Voor Ledereen! 40308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, op 27-12-2004 19:58 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: (BTW, this back and forth has been very useful for me and I want to > thank you and Sarah and others for it.) N: I also find it useful and inspiring. You have excellent points, well worth going into these more deeply. We may talk about the idfference between wrong view, ditthi and ignorance, but only when ditthi arises and there can be awareness of it doubts can be cured. > Nina : (Re: Sotapanna) He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala > citta. > > TG: Your last post on this subject is pasted at the end. What I gather > from your above statement and your post below is that the only ignorance a > Sotapanna has is that of the perversion of pleasure. Is that what you meant? N: No, more than that. He still has all three roots, but they do not motivate bad deeds. We should remember that there are many degrees and many kinds of ignorance. At the moment of akusala citta, suppose it is citta rooted in averison, we do not see the disadvantage of aversion, dosa. That is ignorance or delusion, in Pali avijjaa or moha. As to the perversions, they are present whenever there is akusala citta. But for the sotapanna, there are no longer the akusala cittas rooted in lobha which are accompanied by ditthi, wrong view. Thus, he has only four types of lobha-mula-cittas out of the eight types. Here you see that it is useful to classify cittas. It seems that we are thinking of numbers, but they pertain to realities, dhammas. They help us not to have confusion about defilements. TG: Why would someone laugh or cry unless they had the capacity to see things in > terms of self? How could someone die of a broken heart without viewing things > falsely? N: This is a fundamental issue, touching on the way we practise. Yes, even a sakadagami, once returner, died of a broken heart. (Rob K gave this example). All the stages of insight knowledge have to be developed so that one can reach enlightenment and become a sotapanna. The first three stages are tender insight, and then after that there are the stages of principal insight. The latter are called vipassana as power, balava vipassana. This means: awareness and understanding can arise no matter in what circumstances. Nothing distracts or disturbs, even when laughing and having fun, or when crying bitterly. For us now this is difficult, but the sotapanna has learnt. No matter what appears, be it kusala or akusala, be it pleasant or most unpleasant: all that appears is only dhamma, a reality. It is a dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. He knows: dhamma has no possessor, it arises already because of conditions, it is anatta. We have to learn, we still think of a self who is a controller. My lobha, my dosa. The sotapanna leads his life in a natural way, outwardly we cannot see whether someone is a sotapanna. This teaches us that satipatthana is to be developed naturally, no matter we laugh or cry, no matter we are angry or attached. See satipatthana sutta under citta: citta with attachment (sa-raaga citta), etc. This is classified under the objects of mindfulness. There are nama and rupa. Akusala citta is real, feeling is real, and when there is motion in the face or body, it can be known that through the bodysense hardness or motion may appear. The elements of earth or wind. TG: Why would the Buddha and Sariputta stress treachings about impermanence and > no-self to noble disciples (streamwinner, once-returner, non-returner)... if > they have completely mastered those false views? N: Also ariyans like to listen to the Dhamma, even arahats did, it is their nature. It is the truth, one can listen with appreciation. The cittas of different people who listen are different: people who are non-ariyans and ariyans listened. TG: The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... N: I love this sutta. K.S. III, Last Fifty, II, § 122) I included it in my ! > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer should carefully attend to?" > "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend > to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as > a > disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as > disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to > clinging, > it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) T.G. This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non-returner as > the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that has > eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need > to be instructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher > levels? > My only explaination is that these ways of regarding the aggregates have not > been perfected by these noble disciples. N: Yes, they have to continue being aware of the five khandhas, that is, all nama and rupa appearing through the six doors. Conditioned dhammas, that are impermanent, non-self, and misery, not a pleasure. Ariyans who are not arahats still have clinging and ignorance, but they have realized impermanence and the truth of non-self. When impermanence and non-self are mentioned concerning the five khandhas, it does not imply that they do not know this. They are just properties of the five khandhas, that is all. But see, added are the words, a tumor, a dart, misery, etc. N: Now see the end: (PTS transl.) What else can the arahat do? He has eradicated defilements, but he can contemplate Dhamma. Dhamma is Dhamma, it is the truth. Realities arise and fall away, they are impermanent, no matter a Tathaagatha arises in the world or not. No matter one realizes it or not. Also arahats pay respect to the truth, to Dhamma. Like the Buddha after his enlightenment. He said, I have no teacher to whom I shall pay respect. I pay respect to the Dhamma. The khandhas, nama and rupa appearing now, do not change their nature of impermanence and anatta, but pañña that develops sees the truth of nama and rupa more clearly. It is pañña that eradicates defilements. We can be reminded that the objects of awareness are just what appears now. Understanding of nama and rupa can develop until arahatship is attained. Nina. 40309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Howard Hi Howard, I would like to add something. op 28-12-2004 01:36 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The last fetter to go is avijja, which can be > understood as the disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. N: You rightly said that avijja is eradicated last, but I would not say, disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. Also the sotapanna has realized nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. But I would rather say: there are different degrees of realizing the truth. Pañña develops on and on and as it becomes more accomplished, it is able to eradicate latent tendencies, until all ignorance is completely gone. H: even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. Only is an arahant completely free of sense of self in the conventional person and in all dhammas. N: Yes, this sense of self is conceit, maana. A cetasika different from ditthi. We can think of the clean cloth returned from the washerman, Khemaka sutta. No smell left. People will have no confusion if it is kept in mind that we can cling to an idea of self with wrong view, with attachment that is not connected with wrong view and with conceit. Wrong view: includes eternalism and annihilation view. The twenty kinds of personality belief. Clinging without wrong view: I like the khandhas that are arising and falling away. The sotapanna knows that there is no person, only impermanent khandhas, but because of accumulated clinging he can still be attached to them. Conceit: the khandhas here are better than those over there. Book of Analysis, second book of the abh, p. 504: ...one gets the wish ,,,, the wrong view ...the conceit ... There are these obsessions, or or . .. These three ways of clinging are illustrated with examples. A person thinks I am a ruler, a Brahmin, and he can think with these three papañcas. Nina. Nina. 40310 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/28/04 9:59:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > N: You rightly said that avijja is eradicated last, but I would not say, > disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. Also the sotapanna has realized > nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. But I would rather say: > there are different degrees of realizing the truth. Pañña develops on and on > and as it becomes more accomplished, it is able to eradicate latent > tendencies, until all ignorance is completely gone. > ====================== Yes, I understand. When I wrote "to realize", I meant something far deeper than just "to understand as true". By 'realization' I mean an understanding that is in the bones - in the very marrow, so that not even a whiff of questioning remains, not even the barest inclination. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40311 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:05am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > As I said (off-list), I was really glad to hear from you and to hear of > your continued keen interest in the Abhidhamma too. Thank you for allowing > me to reply to your letter on list. I hope others also add their comments > on any of your good questions too. You have many friends here as I > mentioned. > …. OK. Hopefully this will serve to get us all more knowledgeable about the Buddha's teachings so that we can practise correctly and acheive further realization. > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I know I haven't been active in DSG the past few months.. I wasn't > > sure where Abhidharma fit in, especially in the context of the four > > foundations of mindfulness. I have been wanting to practise from a > > practise guide I have (Swallowing the River Ganges, by Michael > > Flicksteni), but it hasn't been so easy, so I've looked at a few > > titles from the book's bibliography. The one I've gotten so far is "A > > Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidharma" by Bhikku Bodhi. > …. > S: Many of us refer to this text a lot on DSG…I think I even recommended > it to you before when you asked about Abhidhamma texts. It is a > translation of a very famous compendium of Abhidhamma (the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha), a summary of the main Abhidhamma texts which has been referred > to my Theravada communities for centuries. (See B.Bodhi's intro). B.Bodhi > has also compile helpful extra notes based on the commentaries. > > The four foundations of mindfulness are simply various namas and rupas as > classified in this text. The Abhidhamma reading helps one to understand > them better. Do ask any questions. > …. Well, I can understand that the Abhidharma will go into details about the nature of material form, the four elements (I have not studied this far yet but I can glean this from the introduction), the different types of consciousness and accompanying feelings and their concommitants, but it seems to me, even though we may be understanding different namas and rupas, that since the Buddha only gave assurance of attainment to one who practises the four foundations of mindfulness for such and such a period of time (7 years down to 7 days), one must practise in accordance with the sutta's instructions, that is, to know you have a pleasant feeling when you have a pleasant feeling, to know you have a painful feeling when one exists, and to know neutral feelings, we have to be mindful of *all* nama and rupa eventually, or all rupas under one classification for a period of time, and then more namas or rupas (for instance, one could practise contemplation on the four elements to eliminate the concept of a living being, then go on to be mindful of feelings either at the same time or separately), so we (or at least I am) are looking at a future of intense practise. Personally, I see my practise moving into the streets and being 'mindful in the present moment' as Joe Goldstein has termed it, along with some formal meditation sessions at home to augment my practise. I may take up a lot of exercises from a practise guide I have (Matthew Flickstein's "Swallowing the River Ganges") which goes through the seven stages of purification using exercises from all the four foundations of mindfulness, and the insight knowledges (see also Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification and the Insight Knowledges), as well as exercises designed to illuminate the validity of truths expressed in the Noble Eightfold Path. It is this structure that seems to me to be solid, that is, practising continually, as presecribed in the sutta, and with a practise guide that can affirm your progress along each step (the insight knowledges and some additional analyzation-knowledges Flickstein adds under the heading of 'Insight Knowledges'), really has me believing that it is possible to walk a path knowing with a reasonable degree of certainty that one is definitely making progress towards the end goal, enlightenmenet. Some of you may take it to be one nama or rupa at a time, but I see the material in the chapter on compendium of consciousness to be known as it appears in reality, as part of my practise, specifically related to the section of the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta regarding contemplation on consciousness. > >It goes through > > the different types of consciousness from the perspective of it as a > > science, although it does sometimes include examples of how each > > consciousness might manifest itself in daily life -- similar to Nina's > > works in that respect, but the book describes their nature in a more > > precise manner. It does contain information and charts on the seven > > stages of purificiation and insight knowledges, but not about the > > nature or conditions of insight knowledges as I had hoped. > …. > S: I think you'll find it's all contained there in various sections. For > example, ch V111 on Conditions. It's not simple, I agree. There are > various factors and conditions involved, such as natural decisive support > condition which explains how wisdom can be accumulated in order for it to > become insight knowledge. No self involved. Purification of view, the first stage of purification, looks to me like it is geared towards eliminating wrong view of self, but the same psych-physical organism can create the causes and conditions for insight knowledges to arise based on the forces of the universe. EG, I was walking along the streets one day, and I felt my mind-stream could flow down into the sewer, so I immediately remembered a suggestion by the Buddha to his monks that on guarding the sense doors, one can go to heaven, or by neglecting to guard the sense doors, one can go to hell, so I began guarding my sense doors. Similarly, there are certain factors in my life that are going to drive me to practise different exercises from this book with the insight-knowledges acting as landmark to show me where I am. I will value a greater understanding of all the namas and rupas involved in the process, including the nature of all four foundations of mindfulness, and the insight knowledges (especially how these two are related to each other - Flickstein has taken results from his experience with meditation students over the years to combine the two, but I would feel funny practising mindfulness of the body in the body (especially breathing) for a long time and not knowing what to expect in terms of insight knowledges or the wisdom that will liberate me, but it seems to me that we have to practise to a higher degree than a nama here and a rupa there if we want to acheive enlightenment. But then again, I havent studied very far in Bhikku Bodhi's "ACM" of Abhidhamma. This has been my general view for a long time, but I think I have a greater understanding of how knowledge of the Abhidhamma could help me along. > I'd be happy to go through this or any section with you. I'm sure I'd > learn a lot. Very precise as you say. > …. > > Do you think it would be possible to apply my knowledge of the > > different types of citta and cetasikas as the third foundation of > > mindfulness, which Ven. U Silananda, in his book, "The Four > > Foundations of Mindfulness" states (he writes very briefly for this > > stage and says knowledge of abhidharma is necssary). And then go on > > with contemplation of body, four elements, and mindfulness of > > feelings, and dhammas. > …. > S: I think it helps a lot to learn about all kinds of citta, cetasikas and > rupas too, but one can read about them in any order. The most important > thing is to clearly understand the distinction between namas (cittas and > cetasikas) and rupas so that there isn't any confusion or idea of self > mixed up in them. We don't need to think of an order of application or of > applying anything. Let it happen naturally, otherwise the strong will and > wish will be an impediment to awareness in itself. > …. > >If not, this book probably contains enough > > that I could put together a better understanding in combination with > > other materials I have than I could have with the works alone. > > > > Tell me what you think. > … > S: I agree with you. I think this text contains everything we need to know > IF we read it wisely and don't try to memorise lists or experience > particular states we're reading about. > > As I mentioned, the charts were done by U Silananda, so you may find these > helpful as well, though I'm not really a chart person myself. > > Having said that, I'm looking as I write at a helpful section on the 3 > Rounds in ch V111, #8 with a useful little chart: > > "The three rounds exhibit the cyclic pattern of existence in samsara. The > most fundamental round is the round of defilements. Blinded by ignorance > and driven by craving, a person engages in various unwholesome and mundane > wholesome activities. Thus the round of defilements gives rise to the > round of kamma. > > When this kamma matures it ripens in the resultants, and thus the round > of kamma gives rise to the round of resultants,. In response to these > resultants – the pleasant and painful fruits of his own actions – the > person still immersed in ignorance is overcome by craving to enjoy more > pleasant experiences, clings to those he already has, and tries to avoid > the painful ones. > > Thus the round of resultants generates another round of defilements. In > this way the three-fold round turns incessantly until the ignorance at its > base is removed by the wisdom of insight and the supramundane paths." > ***** > You'll ask me how such wisdom of insight arises and it is by discussing, > considering and being aware of dhammas (realities) as they appear now in > daily life without any special selection or choosing. Understanding these > dhammas with detachment from whatever is being experienced is the way that > we'll be less blinded by ignorance as I see it. > There is a verse in Dhammapada about the nature of ignorance, and even telling you to 'free yourself from it.' Bhikku Bodhi in his introduction to Majjhima Nikaya even states full penetration of the four noble truths (contemplation of dhammas in dhammas) can break the cycle of dependent origination, that is, through ending ignorance. So I think there can be different approaches and it would be good to reconcile them over time, with proper understanding, but this is how my understanding of practise is right now, even if many in the group do not see it the same way. peace, al > Let me know how this sounds and if there are any parts of the book you've > been looking at. I'm very interested to hear your comments and I know > everyone will be very glad to hear from you again, Andrew. Just take your > time to settle back. > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 40312 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi again Andrew. > > --- "Andrew C. Levin" wrote: > > > > > > Sarah, > > > > This was not the only reason, my inability to see where Abhidharma fit > > in. It did seem like a different path though, one that I couldn't quite > > get enough of a feel for to be certain it was the one for me, but after > > reading the Introduction and first chapter of ACM I can get an idea of > > how valuable it may be. > .... > S: I think the Abhidhamma is very, very useful (indispensible imho), but > only if one sees it referring to the present experiences in life. You > mentioned you've had a pretty tough time for the last couple of months or > so and I was very sorry to hear this. But even at such times, there are > still only cittas,cetasikas and rupas and it helps a lot to realize this. > No Andrew at all;-). Yes this sounds similar to Ayya Khema's advice in "Being Nobody, Going Nowhere" about how we try to escape from the three characteristics of reality, or wriggle out of them, but the only way out is to accept, understand, and become them, and that when we are aware we are only energy particles and the four elements, who is there to have a problem? If no one is there to have a problem, there is no problem. So I practise on the bed in the waiting room before I got a room in the hospital. May I continue to practise like this with success. > > I'm so glad that things are looking better now.So much depends on our > mental attitude don't you think? If we're lost or fixated in a story about > what is seen or heard, for example, there is no awareness at all of any of > those namas or rupas (mental or physical realities) appearing. > > So our goal is not to find another reality or truth, but to understand the > ones being experienced right now. Slowly, slowly. > Our goal is to extinguish our defilements and attain the supramundane paths, no? Is your goal of experiencing namas and rupas one way at a time aimed towards this same goal? If so, maybe we can explore the territory between your approach and mind. > As I said, I'm very glad to hear from you in good form and I know Nina and > everyone else will be so glad too. (Jon sends his warm regards).I know > there will be ups and downs, but please let us all support each other with > the Dhamma here. It is the only long term solution. > > Thank you again for writing and letting me share some of your letter with > your good friends on DSG. > Glad to be back, Sarah. I still don't feel quite at home with all this yet, this is why I have gotten a practise guide and now that I have ACM my interest level has risen up and given me a line on which I can begin my study and then take it through all the other material from the Tipitaka I have and that is available to me and try to understand how my practise will lead to enlightenment eventually. peace, a.l. 40313 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L, and Howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 12/28/04 10:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > To my knowledge, the most essential teachings of the Buddha found in > Suttam Pitaka deal with reality units and different approaches to > their manipulation. Thus, any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma > in disguise. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas. ------------------------------------- > > Now, Howard, the origin of Abhidhamma Pitaka is Gotama the Buddha as > the Three Pitakas are coherent system of teachings involving the > reality units, their conditions and relations in various ways of > presentation for the sole purpose of taming and transforming our > minds for eventual awakening. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree that Abhidhamma was created with the teachings of the Buddha as basis. If that is what you mean, then I agree. ========================= With metta, and saddha in the Tiratana, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L, and Howard Dear Suan and Andrew L, Suan, thank you for your words of encouragement to all of us. The more we read suttas, the more we see the Abhidhamma in the sutta. A great help for the development of understanding now. Andrew, welcome back. I am so glad to see you here again, looking forward to your input, Nina. op 28-12-2004 15:27 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma > in disguise. 40315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Simon and friend :-) Hi James, You expressed that very well. I like your photo very much. You did a good work to look after this kitten. Nina. op 28-12-2004 09:35 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > There is life and death, life and > death, over and over again. Lessons to make one let go just a > little bit more…. 40316 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] contact Hi Larry, op 28-12-2004 02:50 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Larry: "My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next." > > Nina: "shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya?" L: This works for me if we understand that a particular votthapana citta > conditions a particular javana citta. N: The citta that falls away conditions the succeeding one. Not merely the above mentioned cittas. In this way kamma and also tendencies are accumulated from moment to moment. L: Although it is still a mystery how > that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and > each citta modifies that information. N: I would not use the word info, nor modification. There is much more to that, see above. Kamma can produce result even after aeons. Kamma that is done cannot be modified. > L: ... (snipped) One problem is what does contact (phassa) contact. Votthapana conditions > javana but it doesn't contact it. N: The cetasika contact, phassa is a universal, it accompanies each citta and just contacts the object so that citta can know it. Votthapana is accompanied by contact that only contacts the rupa experienced by it in that process. L: If they both contact the rupa what is > accomplished? They can't cognize the rupa like sense consciousness. N: votthapana-citta determines the object, determines whether it will be followed by kusala citta or akusala citta. A function different from just seeing. Seeing does not determine anything. It only sees. They are, all of them, assisted by contact cetasika. L:In a > mind-door process what does the javana contact? Mind-door adverting is > gone when it arises. N: To be more precise, the Q, should be: In a mind-door process what does the contact accompanying javana-citta contact? Answer: the object experienced at that moment. A rupa or a nama. Or a concept. L:Is contact the sequential arising of adverting and > javana in the mind-door? N: Contact is a cetasika, see above. L:Is the mind-door the base for 5-door process > after the initial contact between external rupa and sensitive matter? N:Mind-door process follows upon sense-door process usually. (The rest snipped,) contact is a cetasika, see above. L:.... contact as initially happens with > external object and sensitive matter. These two rupas can arise at the > same time, unlike two consciousnesses. N: Contact cetasika is mental. It is different from physical contact. External object which is rupa and sensitive matter which is impinged on must be present to each other. That is right. Nina. 40317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Howard Hi Howard, very good. Kom and I once discussed this expression, in the bones, used in Thai. Because Kh. Sujin had said that understanding has to be in the very bones, and then it can be a condition for the arising of satipatthana, direct awareness and understanding. It shows how firm it should be. I found it a good reminder. Nina. op 28-12-2004 16:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > By 'realization' I mean an > understanding that is in the bones - in the very marrow, so that not even a > whiff of > questioning remains, not even the barest inclination. 40318 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:59am Subject: I Think It is Time Hi, all - The death toll in the tsunami tragedy is at 52,000 and climbing. Whatever any of us may take 'pray' to mean, I think it is time for prayer and deeds. The deeds, for those of us not near the affected areas, is to make donations as we are able. My prayers are general but also very specifically for members of this list. I pray that none "here" have come to harm. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40319 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: I Think It is Time Hello all, For those wishing to donate: Lots of Aid Agencies in a number of countries http://tinyurl.com/6qs32 OR http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? showtopic=10490&st=0&p=139276&#entry139276 Red Cross http://www.redcross.org/ Buddhist Peace Fellowship http://www.bpf.org/html/whats_now/events/tsunami.html Medecins Sans Frontieres - International http://www.msf.org/ Oxfam http://www.oxfam.org.au/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The death toll in the tsunami tragedy is at 52,000 and climbing. > Whatever any of us may take 'pray' to mean, I think it is time for prayer and > deeds. The deeds, for those of us not near the affected areas, is to make donations > as we are able. My prayers are general but also very specifically for members > of this list. I pray that none "here" have come to harm. > > With metta, > Howard > 40320 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Indroduction Hi all, my name is Charles DaCosta, I live in Denmark. I was born and razed in the USA (east coast) but have lived in Denmark since 97. I am 43 years old, had a good Christian upbringing (training that is), and been involved in Buddhism since 1974. At different times I had planed to be Christian minister, a monk (Therevadin), and a Lama. However, life has not seen it fit for me to do either for more than teaching a class here and there. I have also trained in Zen. I practice martial artist (Chinese mainly) most of my life, and I tend to use it as a vehicle to teach Buddhism and Taoism. By profession I am a software engineer with several different types of degrees. Charles D ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Charles, Welcome to DSG - I'm glad to see you've made yourself at home and you're already contributing to different threads. 40321 From: Egbert Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:09pm Subject: Re: I Think It is Time Hi all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The death toll in the tsunami tragedy is at 52,000 and climbing. > Whatever any of us may take 'pray' to mean, I think it is time for prayer and > deeds. The deeds, for those of us not near the affected areas, is to make donations > as we are able. My prayers are general but also very specifically for members > of this list. I pray that none "here" have come to harm. > I second and third those prayers. And may this event prompt a recognition of the universal and shared nature of suffering, whether times are good or bad. May this be an end to the butchery between Sinhalese and Tamils in Sri Lanka, Muslims and Buddhists in Thailand, cessasionists and government loyalists in Aceh. Kind Regards Herman > With metta, > Howard 40322 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Icaro: "Hi Larry! Your definition of time clashes with Visudhimagga´s, Chp.XIV n.71 and Chp.XVII, n.3 (BPS Pariyatti edition)." Hi Icaro, If you are saying that there is nothing in these notes about time being fire and water, I agree. Otherwise, I don't see that these notes say much of anything about time. What do you mean??? Larry 40323 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Icaro: "Time is real, space is real and their borders ( events) take us not to a "no-time" domain, but to another time or space segment." Hi Icaro, Ah! I see what you are getting at now. By "timeless" I was refering to nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Insight extinguishus time. All that is left is the no-time domain. Larry 40324 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Charles (and Nina), I have nothing useful to add but wanted to say "hi" and welcome you aboard. You have an interesting perspective but I would like to pick up on it a little more before making a comment. Larry 40325 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:00pm Subject: Vism.XIV,127 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 127. It is fivefold according to the analysis into [bodily] pleasure, [bodily] pain, [mental] joy, [mental] grief, and equanimity. Herein, 'pleasure' is associated with profitable resultant body-consciousness (38) and 'pain' with unprofitable resultant body-consciousness (54). 'Joy' is associated with 62 kinds of consciousness, namely, as to sense sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (1)-(4), with 4 resultant with root-cause (42)-(45),with 1 resultant without root-cause (40), with 4 functional with root-cause (73)-(76), with 1 functional without root-cause (72), and with 4 unprofitable (22)-(25); and as to the fine-material-sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (9)-(12), 4 resultant (57)-(60), and 4 functional (81)-(84), leaving out that of the fifth jhana in each case; but there is no supramundane without jhana and consequently the [eight] kinds of supramundane (18)-(21) and (66)-(69) multiplied by the five jhanas make forty; but leaving out the eight associated with the fifth jhana, it is associated with the remaining 32 kinds of profitable resultant. 'Grief' is associated with the two kinds of unprofitable (30)-(31). 'Equanimity' is associated with the remaining fifty-five kinds of consciousness. 40326 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:17pm Subject: XIV 154 154. (xxxii)-(xxxiii) 'Compassion' and 'gladness' should be understood as given in the Description of the Divine Abodes (Ch.IX,92,94,95), except that those are of the fine-material sphere and have attained to absorption, while these are of the sense sphere. This is the only difference. Some, however, want to include among the inconstant both lovingkindness and equanimity. That cannot be accepted for, as to meaning, non-hate itself is lovingkindness, and specific neutrality is equanimity. 40327 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 154 Please disregard this one. It's for later. Sent it to the wrong address. Larry 40328 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:17pm Subject: Re: For Nina: 20 Jan 02's Bay Area Study Topics Hello all I've been interested lately in vipallasa (perversions.) They are the illusions which prevent us from seeing the truth of suffering. Here is a passage from Roots of Good and Evil which I am still reviewing with great interest: "The truth of suffering is hidden by the four distortions of reality, vipallasa, the four great illusions of seeing permanence in the impermanent, happiness in what is truly suffering, selfhood in what is void of a self and beauty in the unbeautiful. THese distortions, powerful universal manifestations of ignorance and delusion shut out an understanding of the truth of suffering, and therby obscure the other truths, too." The following is a Useful Post sent by Kom on the topic of Vipallasa. It might be helpful in your ongoing consideration of the elimination of wrong view by sotapanna etc. Metta, Phil p.s I noticed that there is no mention of vipallasa in either of my sutta anthologies. (MN and SN) Is it introduced elsewhere in the Suttanta, or is it a teaching that comes from Abhidhamma or the commentaries? If the latter is the case, more evidence that a teaching needn't be explicitly featured in the Suttanta in order to deepen our understanding of the Noble Truth of suffering. Now here is Kom's post. If the chart doesn't come out well, you can find this as the first of the Useful Posts on "vipallasa": > Dear Nina, > > I am assigned to post some (not sure how much) information > about what the Bay Area's dhamma study group discussed this > week. On the 20th, we generally discussed 2 topics: > vipallasa (perversions), and citta-vithi (panca-dvara only, > haven't got to mano-dvara yet.) > > As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: > 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) > 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) > 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) > > Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the > 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with > micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta > vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans > exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana > (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu > cetasikkas) cittas. > > The objects of the vipalassa are four: > 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance > 2) Seeing dukha as sukha > 3) Seeing anatta as atta > 4) Seeing asubha as subha > > The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes > an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as > followed: > > Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > Satipathana eliminates the vipallasa gradually. Different > kinds of satipatthana eliminate different kind of vipallasa > as followed: > > Kaya-nupassana eliminates asubha vipallasa > Citta-nupassana eliminates impermanence vipallasa > Vedana-nupassana eliminates dukha vipallasa > Dhamma-nupassana eliminates anatta vipallasa > > K. Jack mentioned that a type of satipatthana, even though > it eliminates a type of vipallasa as its main function, it > also eliminates other vipallasa, but not as its main > function. > > The rest of the session we spent discussing vithi-cittas. > > Nina, we also taped the entire session (for the first > time!). I am not sure of the sound quality of the tapes, > but it you like to have them, I can send them to you. > > kom 40329 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Vipallasa (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 65 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (l) Hello all In the previous post, I said that I couldn't find vipallasa in index of my SN anthology, but reading on in the Useful Posts I found this recent one from "Cetasikas": > We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Chapter V, §9, > Perversions) about four perversions (vipallåsas) of saññ?E citta and > di?Ehi: > *** > -Monks, there are these four perversions of perception (saññ?E, four > -perversions of thought (citta), four perversions of view (di?Ehi). What > -four? > -To hold that in the impermanent there is permanence, is a > -perversion of perception, thought and view. To hold that in dukkha > -there is not-dukkha, is a perversion of perception, thought and view. > -To hold that in the not-self there is self, is a perversion of > -perception, thought and view. To hold that in the foul there is the > -fair, is aperversion of perception, thought and view. These are the four > -perversions of perception, thought and view?E> *** Metta, Phil 40330 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:55pm Subject: Re: Meditation [Tep's reply to message # 40259] Hi, Nina - In the Visuddhimagga 'yathabhutananna-dassana', the first correct vision of nama and rupa, is defined as follows: "..when there are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging, there comesto be the mere term of common usage 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or ' I '; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality- materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision" [VM XVIII,28]. As to the development of this 'correct vision' by samatha meditation I have found Acariya Mun Bhuridatta Thera's method in "A Heart Released" very methodically explained, step by step. Acariya Mun emphasized using the body as the great frame of reference to develop nimittas and "have it analyzed minutely into all of its parts that are composed of the properties (dhatu) of earth, water, fire, and wind -- this is called patibhaga". This lecture is very interesting because he also connected this 'correct vision' to the next level of insight, i.e. 'this is not mine, not I, not my self'. Please read the following two extracted paragraphs from the lecture, and I would very much appreciate to know what you think. "Separate the body into the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind, examining it until you really see it in those terms. At this stage, you may use any strategies of your own devising that are agreeable to your temperament, but you must not in any event abandon the original reference point that first appeared to you. When you are investigating at this stage, you should work at it and develop it repeatedly. Don't investigate once and then let it go for half a month or a month. Investigate in and out, back and forth, again and again. In other words, withdraw inward to quiet the mind and then come out again to investigate the body. Don't exclusively investigate the body or exclusively quiet the mind. "When you have investigated in this way until you have it thoroughly mastered, what happens next is what comes of its own accord. The mind is bound to converge in a big way; and the instant it converges, everything will appear to converge, being one and the same. The entire world will be nothing but elements. At the same time, an image will appear of the world as being level as a drum head, because the entire world is of one and the same inherent nature. Forests, mountains, people, animals -- even you yourself -- will all ultimately have to be leveled down in one and the same way. Together with this vision, knowledge arises, cutting off all doubts in the heart. This is called yatha- bhuta-ñana-dassana vipassana: the clear insight that both knows and sees things for what they actually are. "This step is not the end point. It is the beginning of the next stage we have to practice, which we as earnest meditators are to work at and develop repeatedly in order for heightened awareness to be mastered and complete. Then we will see that the mental fashionings that suppose, 'This is mine... That is me,' are inconstancy; and that because of attachment they are suffering -- for all elements have been the way they are all along: arising, aging, growing ill, and dying, arising and deteriorating since before we were born". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/released.html Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken O and Tep, > > op 27-12-2004 06:23 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > > Yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, interesting > > word. Nina - could you help again on this term. thanks. I think it > > is good to quote the pali rather than the English term then we are > > able to be concise. It helps in the understanding of suttas. > N: yathaa: just as, like . bhuuta: what has become, what really is. > ñaa.na-dassana: knowledge and vision. > Take S.N. II, Nidaanavagga, Upanisa sutta, Transcendental Dependent > Arising, Wheel 277/278, Transl and notes by B.B. Concentration conditions > knowledge and vision of things as they really are. And this is the > development of insight, vipassanaa bhaavana. > There are many levels of knowledge and vision of things as they really are. > As to the Sutta on the Great Sixfold Sensefield (M.N. 149), this stresses a > gradual development: anxieties and torments decrease. At the end arahatship > is referred to. But all 37 factors of enlightenment develop together as > satipatthana is developed. The Co also indicates that there may be calm at > one moment, insight at another moment, but as regards the ariyamagga, they > are together, at the same time. They are apair. The sutta ends with vijjaa > and vimutti, and this refers to the arahatta magga. > As to pariñña, Tep mentions, this is closely connected with the stages of > insight. I save this for our thread on vipassana ñaa.na. There are three > degrees of pariññaa. > Nina. 40331 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Reminder – trim those tails! Dear All, Just a reminder to trim *all parts* of previous posts that are not necessary for your reply. Also, please put your reply at the beginning rather than at the end of long messages wherever possible. These points assist those reading in digest form, those who print out messages or those reading in haste. Thanks, Jon & Sarah (who also forget at times) Any comments off-list only! 40332 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 86- Volition/cetanaa (p) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** In the ‘Tila-Muììhi Jåtaka (252) we read about a monk who fell easily into a rage and spoke roughly. The Buddha said: “This is not the first time, monks, that this man has been passionate. He was just the same before.” He then related a story of one of his past lives. After the discourse the Buddha explained the four noble Truths and the passionate monk became an anågåmí. He eradicated anger completely. Even though one has strong inclinations to greed and anger, accumulated for many lives, the paññå of the eightfold Path can eventually eradicate defilements. The greedy monk and the angry monk in the above mentioned Jåtakas could attain enlightenment because they had also accumulated sati and paññå. Listening to the Buddha was the right condition for them to attain the stage of the anågåmí. If we understand that our behaviour now is conditioned by accumulated inclinations we had in the past we will be less inclined to take it for ‘my behaviour’. Each reality which arises is conditioned. Generosity which arises is conditioned by generosity in the past, it is not ‘my generosity’. Anger which arises is conditioned by anger in the past, it is not ‘my anger’. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40333 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Ken O, I was glad that you came in on this thread and you made some good points which I agree with. Of course, B.Bodhi is very familiar with the same suttas you refer to;-). ... > I have still not discuss whether is right concentration just only > jhanas - there are many suttas quote about right concentration - > that is for another dicussion, if we wish to explore it further. … S: Please elaborate further if you wish. I agree with the point that you made in your post to Alan about taking the default reading as being one of jhanas being necessary or implied. Why not take the default reading that they are not necessary? You mentioned his assertion that the ‘jhanas experience in the culmination of enlightenment are not supramundane’, but I think you’d need to quote from his article for this and some of the other comments you make. He clearly explains that rt concentration arising at path moments is referred to as jhana because of it’s equivalence to first jhana intensity, but not because jhana has necessarily been developed. You said ‘he also forget that one can also become enlightened after the arupa jhanas also’. I think again, you’d need to give us refs and links because it’s hard for me to check or follow these comments. I agreed with your other comments to Alan. I especially liked these: “k: Sorry I do not need to sit down one corner to observe the six fold sense objects, every moment is a practice if one can see the three characteristics to all citas, regardless kusala or akusala.” “k:Can one master over cittas that are anatta? Even Buddha cannot master his own kamma of cuti-citta that will come eventually to all rebirth in the six realms, so how are we going to master it.” …. I’m happy to continue any discussion of the article, but please give some references or quotes if so. Metta, Sarah ===== 40334 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Andrew T, (Nina, Suan & All) Writing to AndrewL yesterday reminded me that I’d kept a couple of your posts aside (yes, Mike, the flagged syndrome;-)) to return to some time. Now is sometime and I hope you’re still reading. (Btw, Thanks also for the Cooran discussion update – much appreciated). --- Andrew wrote: > During my evening read of Dhamma last night, I came across SN II 12 > (Bodhi p 680)- a conversation between Mahakassapa and Sariputta. > Sariputta asks whether after death the Tathagata exists/does not > exist/both exists & does not exist/neither exists nor not exists. > Mahakassapa answers that the Tathagata did not declare these > things "because this is unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals > of the holy life, and does not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to > cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to > Nibbana." > > Is anyone aware of any reference where it is said that the Tathagata > did not declare whether dhammas exist or not exist for the reasons > listed by Mahakassapa? …. S: Others are much more familiear with the suttas than I am, but surely the point of the discussion above was to show that it’s meaningless to talk about the Tathagata existing/not existing (as Antony wrote about before) because no self, no Tathagata. On the otherhand, the Tipitaka is entirely about dhammas (existing) and to be known (as opposed to concepts about them). I think I must be missing your point, but perhaps I’m at least throwing the thread back into the ring at the risk of the Cooranites smiling;-). … > I know this concerns the good old ontology issue: when faced with > those who believed "nothing exists", why didn't the Buddha tell them > that issues of existence/nonexistence are "unbeneficial, irrelevant > to the fundamentals of the holy life ..."? …. S: Doesn’t it depend on whether the question is about a self or thing or idea existing/not existing and a dhamma such as seeing or visible object existing? Please elaborate further. I’m beginning to see why possibly no one else bought into this one;-). Another thread of yours which I was also v.interested in was #37846. You always have difficult questions and I don’t have the answer here. You refer to a note BB gives referring to the commentary to SN, NidanaVagga,12:32(2) The Kalaara, where Sariputta discusses the way in which he became an arahant, which was also referred to in the Dighanakha sutta we discussed before, when the Buddha talked about the various feelings. Anyway, the particular cy note you asked about says: “Spk: “ ‘the taints do not flow within me (aasavaa naanussavanti): <..> “ ‘And I do not despise myself (attaana~n ca naavajaanaami)’ BB translates and says this means ‘the abandoning of self contempt (omaana) is indicated’. As we know, at this stage of arahantship, all conceit is eradicated and I don’t know why only the latter would be suggested. I’d be glad if Nina, Suan or any other Pali expert could help with the last phrase or suggest if it’s a standard phrase. (Nina and Suan, this was a post of Andrew’s when we were in India. His actual question was: “Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or inferiority conceit..? ‘ You may like to look at his original message too.) Andrew, some people like Nina don’t have BB’s translation which is why I’ve added the relevant Pali phrases. Metta, Sarah p.s Suan, I’m glad to see your contribution yesterday. Hoping you’re well. ====== 40335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: For Nina: 20 Jan 02's Bay Area Study Topics Hi Phil. Thanks, I have to hurry. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch 5 (Rohitassa), § 9. other notation: II, 51). Four Perversions. Path of Discrimination, Kuddhaka Nikaya, Ch 8 (p. 277), and Co I have in Thai. Nina. op 29-12-2004 02:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > p.s I noticed that there is no mention of vipallasa in either of my > sutta anthologies. 40336 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 154, Larry. Hi Larry, you certainly look ahead of time. I have a very long Tiika of Vis. 127, have to sort out what I use. But you had a lot of typing for this one too! Sorry friends for delay answering upcoming Emails. These days we need to see my father more often. Nina. op 29-12-2004 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Please disregard this one. It's for later. Sent it to the wrong address. 40337 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? By "timeless" I was refering to > nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Insight extinguishes time. All that > is left is the no-time domain. Buddhaghosa, in Vis. Chapt. IX ( I am quoting it by memory, but I can give to you all at DSG the right paragraphs later), that the Octuple Noble Path IS the Own Nibbana. So, Larry, as a matter of text interpretation I could disagree with you about Nibbana being as a Timeless Domain. The Noble Path has its existence embedded in a time-context... and so is the Nibbana. At my opinion it suggests a different kind of time, as real as our mundane counting off about seconds,minutes, hours, days, etc. In resume, an other kind of time, but not a timeless domain. What do you think about it ? Corrections are welcome! Mettaya, Ícaro 40338 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo > > that is logical reasoning by assuming that due to a manusaa > patisandhi the tadarammana cittas should be kusala vipaka. The one > citta of aksuala vipaka that can do the job of tadarammana citta does > not mean that the tadarammana cittas of a human should be kusala > vipaka since there are more kusala vipakas citta than akusala vipaka > cittas. By assuming this type of logical reasoning, I think there is > likely for us to err. Still I like to have the source of this > statment > > Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, I have answered that there are 11 tadarammana cittas. Any of these 11 tadarammana cittas can perform tadarammana function depending on conditions. My logical thoughts are just contemplation on these matters that there are 10 kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas and only one akusala vipaka tadarammana citta. Yes. This does not necessarily mean all human tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. And I said, if there are somanassa javana cittas, then somanassa tadarammana citta can follow them. Here there is no somanassa akusala vipaka tadarammana citta at all. All somanassa tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. If preceeding javana cittas are domanassa javana cittas, upekkha tadarammana cittas will follow. In this case, there are 4 upekkha kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas, and one upekkha akusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. Here any of 5 upekkha tadarammana cittas can perform the job of tadammana. As all are vipaka cittas, any of these 5 tadarammana cittas are not kusala or akusala dhamma at all. When the object is anittharammana, this does not mean anittharammana is akusala. Because anittharammana is rupa. All rupa dhammas are abyakata dhamma. Rupas are not akusala dhamma or kusala dhamma. But because of anittharammana, arising vipaka cittas are akusala vipaka cittas. Pancavinnana cittas, sampaticchana cittas, santirana cittas all will be akusala vipaka cittas. But pancadvaravajjana and votthapana or manodvaravajjana citta are kiriya cittas while javana cittas are akusala dhamma or kusala dhamma in non-arahats. In pancadvara vithi vara at anittharammana 1. kiriya citta starts to arise ( pancadvaravajjana citta) 2. akusala vipaka cittas ( pancavinnana, sampaticchana, santirana ) 3. kiriya citta again ( votthapana citta of manodvaravajjana citta ) 4. akusala javana cittas ( if not mindful ) and kusala javana cittas ( if mindful even though it is anittharammana) 5. vipaka tadarammana cittas If javana cittas are kusala citta ( example bad smell are recognized through mahasatipatthana and the meditator is developing kusala bhavana) then there is no reason that kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas cannot arise especially in human beings. But if ignorant people are viewing on such anittharammana like seeing of rotten dead bodies or smelling of rotten dead bodies, they will develop akusala javana cittas of domanassa vedana. In that case, somanassa tadarammana will not follow. Instead upekkha tadarammana will follow. Again there are 5 upekkha tadarammana. Even though manussa or human beings are born with one of 8 mahavipaka citta, akusala vipaka tadarammana can still do the job. Kusala vipaka tadarammana can equally do the job. But tendencies are more likely that kusala vipaka tadarammana may follow because all bhavanga cittas are kusala vipaka cittas. But this is not always. Akusala vipaka tadarammana can also do the job. Nina already said 'the question has not been answered'. I know that. I will not provide the source. Because there are many many dhammas and there are many many details. Dhammas are going on according to conditions. There is no dhamma that is outside of these conditions. It is patthana dhamma. Regarding disappearance of Buddha's teaching, patthana dhamma will be the first to disappear. Because it is so profound that ordinary unleanred people will not understand. Because of complexity they will put aside patthana dhamma. I regret to say I cannot provide the detail that you want that is 'the source for specific detail'. I do hope this message will serve you well in understanding of dhammas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40339 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Nina wrote: Dear Htoo and Ken O, Yes, but the question is still not answered. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, I have responded to Ken O. Yes. The question is still not answered. I already answered to Ken O that I will not provide the source as there are so many details in dhamma and there are so many books on different topic. So it is hard to pinpoint. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: Htoo, maybe you can ask your Myanmar teachers. You have Mianmar sources that we do not have. Thus, O.K. tadarammana cittas maybe mostly kusala vipaakacittas, but again, that means that these mostly do not experience disagreeable rupas, even when these are the object of a sense-door process. Right or wrong? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here disagreeable objects are called anittharammana. In pancaarammana all objects are rupas. Rupas are abyakata dhammas. They are not kusala dhamma or akusala dhammas. Example is bad smell arisen from rotten dead bodies is definitely not agreeable object. But if mindful, there still can arise kusala javana cittas.[Arahats will always have kiriya javana cittas.] I have discussed the detail in the reply to Ken O under this heading. You can then decide right or wrong after reading the discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: I had understood that the tadarammana cittas are two more moments of experiencing a rupa in a sense-door process. But even though I am a human being, I do not only experience pleasant objects, I also very often experience unpleasant objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In pancarammana all objects are rupa dhamma. Rupa dhamma are abyakata dhamma. They are not akusala dhamma. They are not kusala dhamma. But their arising cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise initially. Votthapana citta which is kiriya citta decide how to feel or realize or fully apperceive the anittharammana or disagreeable object. Because of this manodvaravajjana citta who is performing votthapana function or determing function, javana cittas have to follow. Here depending on accumulation there can be 1. domanassa akusala javana cittas 2. somanassa akusala javana cittas(inappropriate but arise/vultures) 3. upekkha akusala javana cittas ( uddhacca not vicikiccha ) 4. upekkha kusala javana cittas ( in mahasatipatthana /no somanassa) 5. upekkha kiriya javana cittas ( in arahats/no somanassa ) Jhana cittas do not reside on anittharammanas. Magga and phala cittas do not reside on anittharammana. Among kamavacara cittas there are three kinds of javana cittas. 1. akusala javana cittas ( 1,2,3 above) 2. kusala javana cittas (4) 3. kiriya javana cittas (5) Even when we experience anittharammana or disagreeable object, there can still follow kusala vipaka tadarammana citta. Equally akusala vipaka tadarammana can also do the job here. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. op 27-12-2004 03:48 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: 40340 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:41am Subject: Thinking of friends in Sri Lanka and elsewhere... This is a note from Gayan in Sri Lanka. Like everyone else here, both Jon and I sincerely hope any DSGers, families and friends have not suffered in the areas affected by the tsunami. Metta, Sarah. ==================================================== Hi Sarah/Mike, Thanks very much for the mails. I am OK, and my immediate family members are OK as well. (yes I am in SL) But as you know a lot of people were not that lucky.. (yes, luck , kamma and all stuff ) This was a total surprise , and I have been using the following to explain that to others.. This was like having to face an avalanche of snow in the middle of sahara,. I was able to contact Ranil and he and his family are OK..and they very much appreciate your concern. (CC'ed Ranil's working email) Hopefully DSG'ers in other affected countries are OK as well.. Pls Take care, Gayan 40341 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Sarah > > “Spk: “ ‘the taints do not flow within me (aasavaa naanussavanti): > <..> “ ‘And I do not despise myself (attaana~n ca naavajaanaami)’ > > BB translates and says this means ‘the abandoning of self contempt > (omaana) is indicated’. k: I like to add, when one despise oneself, it is dosa mula citta. so that is why "and I do not despise myself" Ken O 40342 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (209) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 'vithi-pavatti' or 'arising of vithi cittas' there are many different processes or many different vithi varas. There are 2 different kinds of vithi varas namely panca-dvara vithi vara and mano- dvara vithi vara. [vithi means 'serial'. When you travel from a city to another city by road, there are many landmarks of small towns and small villages. The road takes from number one to 100 for example. Your car will travel through 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on. This serial is called 'vithi'. The car will not go 8, 2, 78, 33, 94 or in any mad manners but from 1 to 100 serially.] Pavatti means 'arising of cittas and cetasikas'. In a life nama- dhamma starts as patisandhi citta. This citta also comprises cetasikas with it. That particular time is called 'patisandhi kala'. Kala means 'time' 'era' 'age' 'point' etc. Patisandhi Pali word is made up of 'pati' which means 'again' and 'sandhi' which means 'link'. Patisandhi citta links the cuti[dying] citta of immediate past life and the 1st bhavanga[life-continuing] citta of this life. This linking is not physical one. And it is temporal linking. Temporal linking is like this; now look at you second hand of your watch or look at the dial of clock displaying numbers. 1 second, 2 second, 3 second. This is just an example. Second 2 is linking second 1 and second 3. Patisandhi does this linking function. Placewise 'second-one may be at heaven[deva] and 'second-two' may be on the top of a mountain or in a velly. Apart from patisandhi kala [explained], all other arising of cittas and cetasikas are known as 'pavatti-kala'. Vara means 'the turn' 'the exact frequency of the turn'. For example, you have 4 different meals. 1.breakfast, 2.lunch, 3.dinner, and 4.supper. The frequencies are four in number. The exact frequency of breakfast is 'one' or its turn is 'turn one'. Lunch is 'two' or 'turn two' and so on. So vithi vara means 'the turn of serial cittas arising'. This turn may be for seeing visual object. That turn may be hearing auditory object and another turn may be thinking or reasoning at past objects. These are vithi varas. Except patisandhi kala, cittas arise in process free if bhavanga cittas and cittas arise in vithi varas if not process free. There are many vithi varas. They may be panca-dvara [5-door] vithi vara or mano-dvara[mind-door] vithi vara at a vara[turn]. Pancadvara vithi varas are all realetd to kama [sensuous] objects. That is 5 physical senses[1.colours, 2.sounds, 3.smells, 4.tastes, 5.touches]. Mano-dvara vithi vara can take any object out of 6 kinds. These 6 kinds are 1. 5 pasada rupas [5 clear materials] 2. 16 sukhuma rupas [16 subtle materials] 3. 89 cittas [89 states of consciousness] 4. 52 cetasikas [52 mental factors] 5. 1 nibbana [1 absolute peace] 6. 0 pannatti [naming/names] There are many different mano-dvara vithi varas. They are 1. kama javana vithi vara [sensuous impulsion serial-cittas' turn] 2. appana jhana javana vithi vara [close-absorptive impulsion sc turn] 3. magga-phala appana javana vithi vara[path-frution-close impulsion] 4. jhana abhinna vithi vara[absorptive-suprapower serial-cittas' turn] 5. jhana samapatti vithi vara[absorption-reaching serial-cittas' turn] 6. phala samapatti vithi vara [fruition-reaching serial-cittas' turn] In actual term or in real term, there is no being at all but cittas and cetasikas are arising and falling away along with arising and falling away of rupas even though they are not mixed and they are separate matters. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 2. This post Dhamma Thread (209) is especially formulated. All Pali words used here in this post are well explained. If still there is confusion, do not hesitate to ask or reply. 3. Dhamma Thread (001) to (208) are about citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatti, their co-arising, their functions and different classifications on citta. Citta is classified in different ways so that citta can well be understood. 4. There are few errors and there are some typos. For Dhamma Thread (001) to (208) I would advise you to join JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group. This is not for promotion. But JourneyToNibbana is a place where Dhamma Threads can easily be tackled. 5. Discussionwise please post replies to any of these Dhamma Threads at DSG[dhammastudygroup], d-l[dhamma-list], Triplegem Yahoo Group or at JourneyToNibbana. I will try my best as long as I am available at internet. 6. There are some remarks that regarding use of Pali there are 3 kinds of users. One uses many Pali words without ever explaining anything, another one uses Pali words with explanations in parenthesis, and the third one uses Pali words explained and then uses without explanation further. 7. The reason that I am using many Pali words is to maintain their accuracy. Anyway, I do hope this post Dhamma Thread is very clear to any kinds of readers with different backgrounds. 40343 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Ken O,(Htoo & Nina) --- Ken O wrote: > > “Spk: “ ‘the taints do not flow within me (aasavaa naanussavanti): > > <..> “ ‘And I do not despise myself (attaana~n ca naavajaanaami)’ > > > > BB translates and says this means ‘the abandoning of self contempt > > (omaana) is indicated’. > > k: I like to add, when one despise oneself, it is dosa mula citta. > so that is why "and I do not despise myself" ... S: I agree with you that as we usually use this phrase, dosa would be implied (eradicated at the stage of anagami). But here, BB goes on to say omaana (inferiority conceit) is indicated. As you know, all kinds of conceit including omaana only arise with attachment (eradicated at the stage of arahant). So what exactly does the Pali in the comy suggest? While I'm talking to you, have you looked at the references for tadarammana details in Dispeller? There's a lot of detail. In particular, look at 690-699 and 835-835 in vol 1 and let us know if helps. In the last reference it talks about the sense door contact and mind door contact with manodvaravajjana citta (mind door adverting) being a decisive support condition for the feelings arising with tadarammana. It's all a little beyond me and I've seen but not read the last posts between you and Htoo, so I'll keep quiet now. Metta, Sarah ======= 40344 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:42am Subject: 5-door-processing cittas Dear Dhamma Friends, A life as we conventionally know is composed of nama and rupa. Regarding nama, it is not a single entity. It is a mixture. Nama is made up of 4 vipaka-nama.kkhandhas or 4 resultant mental aggregates. They are 1. vedana.kkhandha or feeling aggregates 2. sanna.kkhandha or perception aggregates 3. sankhara.kkhandha or formation aggregates 4. vinnana.kkhandha or consciousness aggregates Vinnanakkhandha or consciousness aggregates are fianlly 89 kinds of mental states or 89 cittas. Vedanakkhandha or feeling aggregate is vedana cetasika or feeling. Sannakkhandha or perception aggregate is sanna cetasika or perception. Sankhara.kkhandha or formation aggregate is all cetasikas except 'vedana' and 'sanna' which are separate khandhas. So all in all, nama.kkhandhas or mental aggregates are citta and cetasikas combinations. As all cetasikas have to depend on citta, I used to discuss focussing on citta. In a life the first citta is called patisandhi citta (linking consciousness) and the last is cuti citta (dying consciousness). In between when there is no specific object to be attended, there will only be bhavanga cittas (life-continuing consciousness). Patisandhi citta, bhavanga cittas, and cuti citta are process-free cittas that is they are not in any specific processing but they are just continuous flow of citta one after another like the flow of a river. That is they are not vithi cittas. They do not take the current object but they just take the past object. When the current objects are being taken, then arising cittas are called vithi cittas or serial-cittas or conscious-mind. The turn of their arising is called vithi vara. When the object is one of 5 physical senses, then vithi vara will be pancadvara vithi vara or 5-sense-door citta process. In this process BBB...BBBACUPKSTVJJJJJJJDDBBB...BBBBBB B = Bhavanga cittas A = Atita bhavanga citta ( passed bhavanga citta ) C = Bhavanga calana citta( vibrating bhavanga citta ) U = Bhavanguppaccheda citta( arresting bhavanga citta) P = Pancadvaravajjana citta( 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) K = Kayavinnana citta ( body-consciousness, touch sense ) S = Sampaticchana citta ( receiving consciousness ) T = Santirana citta ( investigating consciousness ) V = Votthapana citta ( determining consciousness ) J = Javana citta ( mental impulsion, this is swift mental sensing ) D = Tadarammana citta ( retention consciousness ) Here P for Pancadvaravajjana citta arises at kaya-dvara. Kaya-dvara is kaya-vatthu and it is a rupa. It serves as a door for sense consciousness. Kaya pasada rupa which is kaya-vatthu serves as door-way for photthabba-arammana or object of touch. It can also be called a gate. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40345 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:01am Subject: Mind-door processing cittas Dear Dhamma Friends, At mind-door there arise cittas which are a bit different from 5-door processing cittas. At mind-door process or manodvara vithi vara, cittas are not the same. BBB...BBAAACUMJJJJJJJDDBB....BBBBBB B = Bhavanga cittas ( life-continuing consciousness ) A = Atita bhavanga cittas ( passed bhavanga cittas ) C = Bhavanga calana ( vibrating bhavanga citta ) U = Bhavanguppaccheda citta ( arresting bhavanga citta) M = Manodvaravajjana citta ( mind-door-adverting consciousness ) J = Javana cittas ( mental impulsion ) D = Tadarammana cittas ( renetion-consciousness ) Here there is no rupa as object or arammana. And there is no rupa- dvara or physical door. The mind sense door here is assumed to be U or Bhavanguppaccheda citta. It is mind door. To compare with 5-door process this 6th door or mano-dvara or mind- door is nama dhamma while in 5-doors all are rupa dhammas. A life is nama-rupa.[ Avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya nama-rupa ]. A life is a whole of life- processes of arising and passing away of nama and rupa. The first to arise in a conventional life is patisandhi citta and its sampayutta[co-arising] rupa hadaya vatthu. Patisandhi citta is a mixture of pure citta and cetasikas. The last to arise is cuti citta or dying consciousness. The last rupa to arise is hadaya vatthu of 17 moments away back from cuti citta. In between are all bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness if there is no current object. These bhavanga cittas take their defined object of past object, which is the object of marana-asanna-javana-cittas[ death-frequenting- impulsive-consciousness] of immediate past life. So the whole block of cittas has patiandhi citta at the top and cuti citta at the bottom and in between are all bhavanga cittas provided there is no current object. When there is current object, how does that object come in contact with citta. Cittas that know that current object are all vithi cittas. In mind-door the whole series is started with manodvaravajjana citta and the series ends with 2nd tadarammana citta or retention consciousness. As this new block of cittas of vithi vara or processing consciousness do exist in the total original block of citta, it can be assumed that the new block starts with manodvaravajjana citta. So the old block is made hole by new block. Where does this new block come in. It comes in through mind-door. So mind-door may be assumed as a citta just before manodvaravajjana citta. It is a bhavanga citta and it is bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting bhavanga citta. All these cittas processed at mind-door have to depend on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis or when in realms with 5 khandhas that is one rupa.kkhandha and 4 nama.kkhandhas. But when in catuvokara bhumi or when in realms without any rupa there will be only 4 nama.kkhandhas of feeling, perception, formation and consciousness. All these 4 nama.kkhandha do not depend on any rupa at all because of the power of arupa jhana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40346 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: ... Icaro stated: "So, Larry, as a matter of text interpretation I could disagree with you about Nibbana being as a Timeless Domain. The Noble Path has its existence embedded in a time-context... and so is the Nibbana. At my opinion it suggests a different kind of time, as real as our mundane counting off about seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc.In resume, an other kind of time, but not a timeless domain. " I have no problems with this way of expressing things and I think Larry doesn't either. In my first message about this topic I said: "The idea that there is "one time dimension". There are in conventional physics three space dimensions and in modern physics four or even ten. So why isn't it possible that there are two (or more) time-dimensions ? When something is happening in one time- dimension it can be the 'now', the 'present moment' during that happening in another time-dimension. Thinking that there is just one time-dimension is conventional thinking." (To avoid misunderstanding: I'm not talking about the 'three times' used often in Buddhism: history, present time and future because that's about periods in one time-dimension) I think now Larry, Icaro and me agree (although we use different technical languages) on the conclusion: Each of the four ultimate realities has its own time- dimension. 'Time' happens in the four independent of each other (maybe there are only three time-dimensions, that citta and cetasika hacve the same). Nibbana has its own time-dimension, although mundane human beings can have the perception that nibbana is a timeless domain. (To use a metaphore: a black hole is a astrophysical phenomena; for somebody living inside a black hole - physically not possible but in similes everything is possible - time is something totally different as for somebody outside that black hole and looking at it) Another question is: does this talking about time-dimensions have a soteriological meaning or is it only a philosophical game? To me it has meaning. In the first place it is an exercise to free myself from conventional thinking (perhaps it's more an exercise in Zen-Buddhistic way but that's no problem to me) In the second place it helps me (a little bit) to understand the relation between nama and rupa because evry time again in my western trained mind I translate these two in the pair mind and matter of Descartes although I know that that is not correct. More general: thinking about the question: do we have a kind of clock in us for counting off about seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc - as Icaro is saying - for another time-dimension than the rupa one ? Metta Joop 40347 From: Frank Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:37am Subject: aid for Sri Lanka (letter from Bhikkhu Bodhi) I received this from Bhavana Society [info@b...] =================================================== December 28, 2004 Dear Kind Friends, As probably you might have already known, the worst ever disaster has happened in Sri Lanka. Global news media has reported at least 18,706 people have lost their lives and billions upon billions dollars worth of properties have been destroyed by the huge tidal waves caused by the under sea earthquake of 9.00 magnitude in Jakarta. The worst hit is Sri Lanka, a country that has been devastated by the war between 1983 and 2002. Sri Lanka, already poor and trying to recover from chaos and unrest from the war, now hit by this unspeakable earthquake causing enormous degree of suffering to millions of people, needs your help. There is a massive task ahead: removing and disposing 18,706 dead bodies, treating the wounded, the sick; providing food, clean water, and temporary shelters for millions of people who have lost their homes. If you wish to donate any other material things like cloths, medicine, food items please send to: Bhante K. Uparatana at 2600 Elmont Street, Wheaten, MD. 20902-27 Please read Bhikkhu Bodhi's letter below. With Metta, Bhante Gunaratana Bodhi Monastery 67 Lawrence Road Lafayette N.J. 07848 December 27, 2004 Dear Dharma Friends, The terrible tsunami that swept over large parts of south and southeast Asia on Sunday morning caused unimaginable destruction and a horrific death toll that continues to spiral upwards each day. The country hardest hit by the tidal wave was Sri Lanka, the island-nation off the southeast tip of India directly opposite the earthquake's epicenter. Sri Lanka is the country where I received monastic ordination and spent twenty-three years of my thirty-two years as a Buddhist monk. Since the third century B.C., Sri Lanka has maintained a continuous Buddhist heritage, beginning when the monk Mahinda and the nun Sanghamitta, son and daughter of the Indian Buddhist emperor Ashoka, brought the Buddha's teachings there from India. Buddhism has profoundly shaped all aspects of Sri Lankan life and culture, and even today Sri Lanka can claim some of the world's foremost exponents of the Dharma. The tidal wave killed at least 12,000 people along the coasts of Sri Lanka. It has left up to a million people homeless, bereft of all their life's possessions, lacking even the simplest necessities. To cope with this emergency, the country is in desperate need of all the amenities of life: dry food rations, tents, medical supplies, mosquito nets, etc. There is even a shortage of sanitary drinking water. The nation's economy has been severely damaged by the quake, and it will take a long time before it can recover from this calamity. At Bodhi Monastery we are collecting funds to send to Sri Lanka to provide emergency aid to the victims of the tsunami. From deep in my heart I appeal to you to make a donation. The money we collect will be sent to the Permanent Mission of Sri Lanka at the United Nations, which has established a special relief fund for this purpose. Please kindly make your check payable to Bodhi Monastery and mark it: Tsunami Relief for Sri Lanka. Please send your donation promptly, as we would like to present the check to the Sri Lankan Mission by the end of the first week of January. We will issue receipts for all donations received. Donations can be either sent by post to the monastery, given to me personally (with your name & address attached so we can issue a receipt), or given to Kathy Wu, who has offered to collect funds on behalf of the monastery (again, attach your name & address). I thank you in advance for your help. Please remember that generosity, according to the Buddha, is the root and foundation of all wholesome qualities - the first basis of merit and the first of the six and ten paramitas. May the merit serve you as a source of happiness in this life and a cause for spiritual progress in future lives. With metta and blessings of the Holy Triple Gem, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Please note no e-mail addresses will be sent to any organization, this is the only e-mail you will receive. ===== frank@4... 40348 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Hi, Joop! That´s the point! The Noble Path is the true Nibbana, with its own time (I could say "measureless", like a Heiddeger´s quote on "Being and Time", but it would only add more complicated notes to this question!). Call it "Timeless" ís only a matter of concept...these "concept" I do think that disagrees with Buddhaghosa´s propositionson Visuddhimagga, for example, since it could suggest something different of time itself at its event´s frontiers. (To use a > metaphore: a black hole is a astrophysical phenomena; for somebody > living inside a black hole - physically not possible but in similes > everything is possible - time is something totally different as for > somebody outside that black hole and looking at it) Dear Joop, This "Black Hole" example is a very apt one indeed. Have you ever felt such "dilation of time" when reading an interesting book or chatting with a dearly intimate ? It´s very similar: following the octuple path gives you another perspective at your life and society, a better care of the matters concerning your own life. Mettaya, Ícaro 40349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Sarah, Ken O, avajaanaati, to despise: from avajja: low, inferior, blamable. B.B. is right. But often we also have dosa, there are several moments: despising oneself with dosa and thinking oneself inferior, with clinging to the importance of self. Nina. op 29-12-2004 14:30 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > k: I like to add, when one despise oneself, it is dosa mula citta. >> so that is why "and I do not despise myself" > ... > S: I agree with you that as we usually use this phrase, dosa would be > implied (eradicated at the stage of anagami). But here, BB goes on to say > omaana (inferiority conceit) is indicated. As you know, all kinds of > conceit including omaana only arise with attachment (eradicated at the > stage of arahant). So what exactly does the Pali in the comy suggest? 40350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo, thank you for your answer to Ken O and me. I do understand that we cannot find out all details. Nina. op 29-12-2004 13:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: Dear Nina, I have responded to Ken O. Yes. The question is > still not answered. I already answered to Ken O that I will not > provide the source as there are so many details in dhamma and there > are so many books on different topic. So it is hard to pinpoint. 40351 From: Egbert Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Jon, I have decided not to let this slip through after all :-) > ... HH > > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. > > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. === J > Right, there was none of that particular kind of reflecting (namely, reflecting on > matters being discussed on the list); but there would have been thinking about other > matters, since that is the nature of the mind. Even the arahant continues to think, > but without akusala. === H > The major issue I have with the possible implications of the above (there is no suggestion that you have implied them) is that the mind is posited as a thing with its own nature. I accept that it is very difficult or impossible to make very precise statements that are also short. I would just like to make some brief counterpoints. Thinking (reflexive mind) is unique to humans. Thinking is conditioned. Language is a condition for thinking. Language is conditioned. Society is a condition for language as language is a condition for society. This is borne out by the fact that people not exposed to or removed from society loose their capacity for speech/thinking. The holy life is lived under the Blessed One for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. Secular society is a mass of clinging that teaches/learns clinging by way of discursive thinking. The holy life of the Blessed One is the antithesis of secular society. This is of necessity, because discursive thinking militates against the most basic development of mind. The fruits of the holy life are not harvested in thinking conditioned by a social setting. My discursive thoughts only, now back to some silence Kind Regards Herman > > > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to > > the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. > > On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and > particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking > down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development > (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). There are > plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been > heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part > of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. > > Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking > about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very > kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim > withdrawing from this kind of thinking. > > Jon > > [A similar post was sent previously but does not seem to have showed up on the list. > Apologies for any duplication that may occur.] 40352 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi All, Dear James, you posed an interesting question, it is as follows: "... the Buddha would sometimes teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at those times. ... Did the sotapannas have a *belief* in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that belief a `wrong view'?" There are two points I want to make to answer these questions: (1) Indian mythology was used by most teachers in India, even by those that did not believe the gods were real, to explain history and the facts of life. Every culture in the world has taken this approach, especially when it comes to teaching children. Myths often use symbolism and allegory as nice stories and fables to educate. (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. Charles DaCosta ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue <....> Friend Howard, According to my reading of the suttas, the Buddha would sometimes teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at those times. What do you think: Did the sotapannas have a *belief* in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that belief a `wrong view'? <....> 40353 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Larry I understand ----- Original Message ----- From: LBIDD@w... <..> Hi Charles (and Nina), I have nothing useful to add but wanted to say "hi" and welcome you aboard. You have an interesting perspective but I would like to pick up on it a little more before making a comment. Larry 40354 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:07pm Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >In a message dated 12/25/04 9:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, >dsgmods@y... writes: > > >... > >Howard: > I understand an assertion that whenever conditions of types A, B, C, >and D arise, also a condition of type E arises or will arise. The question is >whether a true assertion of such a sort is claiming the existence of a type of >relation. If so, there then arises the question of exactly what sort of >phenomenon a relation is. > My original statement was: Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These relations are termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). To give an example, the present moment of the seeing consciousness is said to be conditioned (a) by a previous moment of cetana by way of kamma condition, and also (b) by its object (visible object) by way of object condition. I do not see that this need give rise to any idea of 'existence'. This introduces an unnecessary complication. Relationships are properties that hold between things. There is no question of there being any phenomena (dhamma) other than the 3 already mentioned (seeing consciousness, cetana, visible object). >One answer is that there are no such phenomena as >relations. That they are concept-only, and to speak of relations is to engage in >mewrely conventional speech. This seems to be the approach that Sarah is taking, >and I'm increasingly persuaded that that is correct. > > It seems to me that the relationships that pertain between dhammas are no more conceptual than are the individual characteristics of those dhammas. A characteristic of a dhamma is not itself a dhamma, but neither is it a concept. The same goes for relationships, I suppose. >Howard: > My point was the following: If characteristics and conditions exist >but they are neither pa~n~natti nor (paramattha) dhammas, then they fall into a >new category! > > As above, I think the introduction of the concept of 'existence' is an unnecessary complication here. As far as I know, characteristics and conditions are not said to 'exist'. To my way of thinking, they pertain to or between dhammas. Jon 40355 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. Why? > > Charles DaCosta Metta, James 40356 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: For Nina: 20 Jan 02's Bay Area Study Topics Hi Phil and Nina, Here's another, Phil: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-049.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch 5 (Rohitassa), § 9. other notation: II, 51). Four Perversions. Path of Discrimination, Kuddhaka Nikaya, Ch 8 (p. 277), and Co I have in Thai. Nina. op 29-12-2004 02:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > p.s I noticed that there is no mention of vipallasa in either of my > sutta anthologies. 40357 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, Excellent points IMHO, particularly (2). As I see it micchaadi.t.thi has a very specific meaning in the texts and does not refer simply to incorrect ideas in general. By the way, I think micchaadi.t.thi can be either paramattha dhamma or pa.n.natti. I'd welcome any comments on this idea. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. > (1) Indian mythology was used by most teachers in India, even by those > that did not believe the gods were real, to explain history and the facts > of life. Every culture in the world has taken this approach, especially > when it comes to teaching children. Myths often use symbolism and allegory > as nice stories and fables to educate. > > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from > suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. 40358 From: Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/29/04 5:13:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 12/25/04 9:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >dsgmods@y... writes: > > > > > >... > > > >Howard: > > I understand an assertion that whenever conditions of types A, B, C, > >and D arise, also a condition of type E arises or will arise. The question > is > >whether a true assertion of such a sort is claiming the existence of a type > of > >relation. If so, there then arises the question of exactly what sort of > >phenomenon a relation is. > > > > My original statement was: > > Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These relations are > termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). > > > To give an example, the present moment of the seeing consciousness is > said to be conditioned (a) by a previous moment of cetana by way of > kamma condition, and also (b) by its object (visible object) by way of > object condition. > > I do not see that this need give rise to any idea of 'existence'. This > introduces an unnecessary complication. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: So far I agree with you. There are no events or phenomena called relations or properties. To speak of them is just a way of speaking. To *believe* in them as existing is an unnecessary reification. -------------------------------------- Relationships are properties > > that hold between things. ------------------------------------- Howard: Not quite. If a relation is a property, then it doesn't hold *between* things - it holds *of* things.Properties hold *of* things. If a relation holds among A, B, C, D, and E, and we want to think of that relation as a kind of *property*, it would be a property that holds of the 5-tuple (A, B, C, D, E). That is the approach that mathematicians take. But, you see, that requires already positing tuples as things. So one gets into concept upon concept upon concept. I think that properties, relations, tuples, and collections are all concept-only. They do give understanding about the way things are, but they are mental constructs - all of them. ------------------------------------------ > There is no question of there being any > phenomena (dhamma) other than the 3 already mentioned (seeing > consciousness, cetana, visible object). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think that is correct. And then, also realizing, fully, that no dhammas are self-existent, the entire experiential edifice is seen to be a house of fragile glass cards that with the final enlightenment that is the end of the card game comes crashing, shatteringly, down. ------------------------------------------ > > >One answer is that there are no such phenomena as > >relations. That they are concept-only, and to speak of relations is to > engage in > >mewrely conventional speech. This seems to be the approach that Sarah is > taking, > >and I'm increasingly persuaded that that is correct. > > > > > > It seems to me that the relationships that pertain between dhammas are > no more conceptual than are the individual characteristics of those > dhammas. > ------------------------------------ Howard: That's quite so. They are all concept-only. ------------------------------------ A characteristic of a dhamma is not itself a dhamma, but > > neither is it a concept. The same goes for relationships, I suppose. ---------------------------------- Howard: If not a dhamma and not a concept, then what? That's all there is, Jon. ----------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > My point was the following: If characteristics and conditions exist > >but they are neither pa~n~natti nor (paramattha) dhammas, then they fall > into a > >new category! > > > > > > As above, I think the introduction of the concept of 'existence' is an > unnecessary complication here. As far as I know, characteristics and > conditions are not said to 'exist'. To my way of thinking, they pertain > to or between dhammas. > --------------------------------------- Howard: They don't exist. That's right. But what does not exist does not pertain to anything. As I see it, you are trying to eat your cake and still have it, Jon. ;-) I understand very well your doing that. The impulse to do so is nearly irresistable. I feel it too - very strongly. It is SO hard to truly let go, to drop all attachment to the existence of things that we hold onto to them at the same time we push them away. I can't manage the letting go that is required - not yet, not even close. I remember the one time at a retreat that I lost all sense of self for a while. It was GONE, and I knew it was unreal, and yet I desperately searched all over until I got it back. We are like prisoners who really love our cells, even as we seem to hate them and claim to want a jailbreak! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40359 From: Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Hi Icaro and Joop, I am afraid I do not agree with you fellows that there is some kind of time in nibbana dhatu. This seems impossible to me. Following a meandering reasoning I came to the conclusion that time is the reality of the 5 khandhas. If there is time in nibbana then nibbana is impermanent. What's the point of that? I can see arguing that there is no real time or anything else in the 5 khandhas precisely because they are conditionally arising. In this sense we could say the khandhas are timeless and therefore nibbana because they both, khandha and nibbana, are anatta. We could also say that nibbana is conditioned by the khandhas insofar as it is the cessation of the khandhas. But this is just a way of undermining the clinging to the concept of nibbana. Once you have experienced the irrevocable cessation of a latent tendency (anusaya) where is the time in that cessation? What time is it in nibbana? Not even "the present". Time doesn't apply. Icaro, I would be interested to see what exactly you are referring to below: I: "Buddhaghosa, in Vis. Chapt. IX ( I am quoting it by memory, but I can give to you all at DSG the right paragraphs later), that the Octuple Noble Path IS the Own Nibbana." Larry 40360 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Sarah Thank you for your post. The Christmas holidays are our "rush hour" with cats galore and visitors so I have only had a chance to skim DSG occasionally. If I remember correctly, the post about what the Tathagata has not declared was sent when the ontology issue raised by Rob M was being discussed and needs to be assessed in that context ie if ontology was irrelevant to the Dhamma, why didn't the Buddha declare as he did in the sutta I quoted? That thread has long since gone dormant - from your later comments, I gather that further analysis of the commentaries would be required to get to the bottom of it. Re the omana question, it struck me as strange when reading it. Perhaps as you postulate, it may just be a stock phrase (but not one I have come across before). Our best wishes & support to all those affected by the tsunami disaster. Bye for now Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew T, (Nina, Suan & All) > > "Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or inferiority > conceit..? 40361 From: Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:22pm Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Dear Icaro, You probably don't know me because I rarely write in, and I read the posts in the form of digests rather infrequently. However, I was intrigued by the wonderful example you gave of clinging to self with conceit: your outburst against all things Russian. As soon as a comparison is made, in this case the statement that Russians are accursed, with the implication that "we" are not Russian nor accursed, is conceit, and is akusala, pure and simple. Note too that words (quote: . . .all Russian words are akusala. . .) are only concepts created from sound as the object of a mind door process following a sense door process where that particular sound was also the object. Though sound can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka, that depends on the accumulations and conditions arising at the time for a particular "person". Once sound is recognized as words, seeminly instantaneously, it is in the realm of concept and an "object" of clinging. This is one of the wonderful things about the study of abhidhamma: it helps us to "see", through deep thought and contemplation, how all of that which we take for "self" is merely the interaction of various phenomena because of conditions. There is nothing for "us" to attach to because there is no "us", nor are there "things" because these are only concepts created by the mind. This thought, when it arises, is a great aid to realizing, and then, letting go of "our" defilements, i.e., those things "we" are attached to (including that which we don't like since we are also "attached" to getting away from what "we" don't like). So, when anything under the concept "Russian" is interpreted in "your" mind door processes, if the thought arises that it is only a concept, not self, (not permanent and dukkha, too) you will see how quickly the akusala will abate as well. Lord Buddha asked us to "check it out" (ehipasiko) for ourselves and see if it is not true. metta, Betty ---------------------- > Dear Nina: We ought not to mix planes here. We use English and Pali together because the circunstances here got this course of events, and not, for example Pali and Russian(accursed language and accursed people! From the Oder to Kamchatka, death to all russians!) or Pali and Bahasya Indonesia (and its muslins and tsunamis).... Mettaya, Ícaro 40362 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 87 - Volition/cetanaa (q) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** There is no self who can force citta to be kusala citta, but conditions can be cultivated so that kusala citta can arise more often. Important conditions for the arising of kusala citta with paññå are friendship with a person who has right understanding of the Dhamma and who can explain the Dhamma in the right way, listening to the teachings and studying them, and above all mindfulness of the reality which appears now. We should consider why we want to perform kusala kamma. Is our aim kusala vipåka? Kusala kamma produces kusala vipåka because this is the natural course of things, but if we want to perform kusala kamma in order to have a pleasant result, such as a happy rebirth, there is clinging. The aim of the Buddha’s teachings is the eradication of defilements. Wholesome deeds will be purer if we perform them because we see the benefit of eliminating defilements. Since human life is very short we should not lose any opportunity for dåna, síla or bhåvanå. If we develop the eightfold Path there will eventually be purification of all defilements. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40363 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > Excellent points IMHO, particularly (2). As I see it micchaadi.t.thi has a > very specific meaning in the texts and does not refer simply to incorrect > ideas in general. What is the very specific meaning in the texts? You see, I have already shown where the Buddha gave a relative explanation of the wrong views eliminated by the sotapanna, and he said that the views based on a wrong belief in self are eliminated. Then the commentaries state that ALL wrong views are eliminated by the sotapanna; now, to me *all* means all. What else could `all' mean? If the commentaries state that all wrong views are eliminated then in order to be correct, every single solitary wrong view would have to be eliminated. Remember, Buddhism isn't just a philosophy; it is about life, all of reality. What is taught must apply to all of reality. Anyway, I am not tenaciously holding onto this view of mine; I could easily drop it if either you or Charles would provide a logical explanation and not just statements. > > By the way, I think micchaadi.t.thi can be either paramattha dhamma or > pa.n.natti. I'd welcome any comments on this idea. Well, it would depend on if the cittas in question simply have an incorrect object or if they arise due to the latent tendencies and/or root conditions. Then again, I don't believe either one of these categories really mean anything. (six of one, half dozen of another) ;-)) > > mike Metta, James 40364 From: Egbert Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi John, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Herman > > Egbert wrote: > > >>All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same > >> > >> > >esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in > >fact defines what a dhamma is). > > > > > >H : > >Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas > >(things). The critical thing about relations is that their > >characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations > >inhere in a third-party observation. > > > >For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger > >than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain > >external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the > >moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. > > > > > > I agree with all you say here but do not see it as having any > application to the kind of relations being discussed. Would you not > agree that the gravitational pull between the sun and its planets > inheres in the sun? ==== H> The whole idea of force and action at a distance, of which gravity is an example, is to me a highly theoretical area and I would prefer to avoid answering that specific question :-) My point was simply that comparisons are a relation that are based on at least three components, and that the relation cannot be deduced from any one or even two of the components on their own. ==== > > >To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is > >also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. > > > > > > The assertion being made is that each dhamma has a characteristic that > is unique to that particular class of dhamma. Another way of saying > that is that the unique characteristic of dhammas of the same class is > the same. If you are saying that because sameness is a relative concept > (which of course I agree is so) dhammas cannot be 'absolute', then I'm > afraid I do not see the force of that reasoning. ===== H> I think we agree that identity is a comparitive relation. "A=A" seems pretty straightforward, but it hasn't always been so. Without the formal logic put forward by Aristotle, statements of identity are pretty flimsy. The division of dhammas into classes is certainly possible. The number of classes into which dhammas can be divided is limited only by imagination. This classification is not an experiential process, it is very much an after-the-fact, thinking only, artifice. When attributing membership of dhammas to certain classes I do not think it is possible to avoid the same difficulties as one encounters when attempting to pigeonhole the Tathagata. Is it the same Tathagata that wakes in the morning as the one who went to sleep the night before? Is it the same dhamma now as a previous occasion? The whole point about avoiding such classifications is the wrong views that lurk on all sides. "A=A" does not apply in Buddhism. Given the three characteristics, perhaps at best (but still doubtful) we can say "A was". I agree with you that experience is absolute, but precisely because of that, a classification system is a complete denial of that absoluteness. I see no neccesity in classifying, but certainly a need to see that classification is happening. ======= > > >So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence > >is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". > > > >That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is > >also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and > >comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to > >know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their > >relationship of sameness. > > > > > We should not confuse characteristic(s) with relations. The two are > different. Characteristics are known first, as I understand it. For > example, nama dhammas are known as nama dhammas, and rupa dhammas as > rupa dhammas. Knowledge of the conditioning factors that hold between > dhammas is a much more advanced level of understanding (of course I am > just parroting here). ===== H> As Howard and I discussed before (not implying that Howard agrees with me BTW :-)) the experience is the knowing. It is an absolute event. Nothing else happens. Any knowing after that is a ?elective apprehension of a selected past. It is story-telling. I do not agree that what is later called eg sound has a characteristic of belonging to any classification or group. Classification is completely arbitrary. The "classes" have no existence. Just like the khandas, they are just explanatory devices. The following two quotes are from Nyanatiloka on "Khandas" "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness" "Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and - mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities." > > >Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party > >observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is > >always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object > >framework on what is experienced. > > > > > > I hope I have explained why not all relationships can be so characterised. ===== H > I hope we are not discussing at cross purposes here :-) ==== > > >As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- > >evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana > >as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the > >necessity to come to know the inherent and relational > >characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. > > > > > > I would be interested to hear what your idea of the development of > awareness or understanding at the present moment is, if it has nothing > to do with the arising dhammas of that moment ;-)). ======== H> I tend to think of mental development as a natural deconstructive process. Rather than building at a superstructure of layer upon layer of non-existent classifications, I see value in becoming aware of how even what seems to be bare awareness is also formed of mistaking non-existent classifications for something that actually happened. > > >The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It > >ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in > >any way. > > > >Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 > > > >"Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up > >(another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those > >who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not > >[have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to > >either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another > >existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on > >investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the > >seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. > >That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be > >identified in the world? " > > > > > > A good quote. I'd like to know what the original term here translated > as 'view' is. I do not believe the Buddha taught a path of refraining > from having a view about anything. That would not be consistent with > the teaching on conditioned dhammas and 'not-self', as I understand that > teaching. ==== H > Perhaps someone in the know could help out with the Pali ? I think what the Buddha taught Bahiya does not need to be improved upon. 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. ' Thanks and Kind Regards Herman > > Jon 40365 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Mike, You raised many helpful points for me to consider more. I'll consider the discussion on the nature of universal cetasikas such as vedana (feeling) here. --- "m. nease" wrote: S:> >...Surely, when the universals such as phassa and vedana arise with > akusala > > cittas, they are akusala and their qualities are inherently different > from > > those arising with sobhana cittas? > M:> I don't think so--they are 'known by the company they keep' I think, > that is > they are designated akusala or sobha.na depending on the various > conditions > (hetu etc.) and on the other cetasikas that arise with them--unless I'm > simply wrong, of course. …. S: First of all by ‘jaati’ (classes), cittas as we both know can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya, the cetasikas being of the same jaati as the citta they arise with, not just by name but by kind too. Furthermore, the citta and accompanying cetasikas all condition each other. The quality of the pleasant feeling accompanying kusala cittas is different from that accompanying akusala cittas and so on. In Narada’s Under sahajata paccaya (conascence condition) in ’Guide to Conditional Relations’ p24 it refers to how the feeling aggregate conditions the remaining 3 mental aggregates and so on for the other mental aggregates. They all affect each other in many different combinations. In Nina’s ‘Conditions’, under conascence condition (sahajata paccaya) and mutuality condition (annamanna paccaya), she writes: “Lobha-muula-citta has as roots moha and lobha, and these roots condition the accompanying dhammas by way of conascence-condition and also by way of root-condition. Phenomena can condition other phenomena by way of several relations. Lobha-mula-citta may be accompanied by pleasant feeling. Feeling is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and when it accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala. Pleasant feeling which is akusala has a characteristic which is quite different from pleasant feeling which is kusala.” A little later, she writes: “Citta and cetasikas can be of four ‘jaatis’ (classes), they can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. Some cetasikas can accompany cittas of four jaatis, but in each case they are completely different since they are conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany. Manasikaara, attention, for example, is a cetasika which arises with each citta, but it is quite different when it accompanies lobha-mula-citta which clings to the object which is experienced, or when it accompanies kusala citta which is intent on generosity or on the observance of siila. Viriya, energy or effort, can be energy exerted in an unwholesome way, such as effort to steal, or it can be energy for what is wholesome. Thus there is a great variety of citta and cetasikas which mutually support one another….” ***** There are also many references I could add from the Atthasaalinii (transl as the Expositor, PTS). Just a couple of brief ones: From Triplets in the Maatikaa: ”In the triplet of ‘Corrupt [kilesa] and corrupting,’ ‘corrupting’ means ‘that which corrupts’ (i.e. oppresses or torments a being). ‘Corrupt’ means ‘arisen or occurring together with the corruptions.’ ….” From ‘Analysis of Terms’: “ ‘Accompanied by joy’: this means ‘gone into the state of a common origin with joy, in the sense of enjoying pleasure like honey.’ This word ‘accompanied’ (sahagata) has the meanings of ‘corresponding nature,’ ‘mingled’, ‘dependence,’ ‘object,’ ‘associated with,’ ‘this craving produces repeated births and is accompanied by passionate delight [Siii 158] – here sahagata means ‘of corresponding nature.’ The meaning is that craving has become passionate delight.” ***** > Don't all 'actually' kusala and akusala kammas occur in javana > processes? > While attending any of these, it seems to me that vedanaa and phassa > always > have exactly the same function, to feel and to contact. … S: Yes. They always have these same functions, but each feeling or contact or attention is different in degree and kind according to the citta and other cetasikas they arise with. In SN 36:22 (2) we read about the six types of joy based on the household life and the six types base on renunciation and then about the i08 feelings. Of course, feeling at each moment is quite different and distinct, even though it has the common function you refer to. … >When attending > vipakka, they, like the vipakka, seem to me to be called 'akusala' or > 'kusala' only as a designation, like 'akusala vipakka'. In other words, > > isn't the vipakka actually avyaakata and called kusala or akusala based > only > on the kamma of which it is the result? … S: Yes, this is quite different from the kusala and akusala qualities in the javana cittas. …. > I think the experience 'feels' different--but not because sukha vedanaa > is > itself different, but rather because it is attended by different > cetasikas > (like lobha 'sticking like meat in a hot pan' e.g.). … S: Both as I understand. In the end, the proof will only be in the ‘tasting’ or awareness of that ‘tasting’. Does the pleasant feeling accompanying lobha seem the same to you as that accompanying generosity or abstention from unwholesome speech or understanding, for example? When it’s accompanied by lobha and restlessness, I think it’s quite different from that accompanied by calm and without lobha, though I agree that it’s very easy to be fooled and take more subtle attachments and unwholesome pleasant feeling for calm and wholesome feeling. Only the development of sati and panna can really tell. Thank you for helping me to consider further. Useful points for discussion I think. Metta, Sarah ====== 40366 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Mike, A little more on the accumulations and sankhaa parts of your post: --- "m. nease" wrote: > 'Carried'--really! Is this consistent with the Paali texts? (Silly > question, probably...) ... S: ;-). I should have stuck to ‘accumulated’ or ‘conveyed’ perhaps which Charles gave. I liked his analogy of gossip (#40292). At the back of my mind I had in mind that you'd once objected to the frequent use of 'accumulated', but that's the last time I try going off the beaten path;-). .... S:> > For example, > > when greed accumulates, there is also the tendency to have a certain > kind > > of pleasant feeling on account of certain objects > M:> I can see that pleasant feeling differs in terms of pleasant tastes, > smells, > thoughts etc., that is that the experience partakes of pleasant feeling > together with a particular door, base, object etc.--but it still seems > to me > that it's the overall experience that differs and not its individual > components. .... S: Both, I think. The overall being made up of the individual... ... M:> Isn't pa.ticcasamuppaada operant at a kha.nika level? This is another > old > opinion of mine, that sankhaara and the other links are not > once-in-a-lifetime occurrences but occur with every single contact etc., > in > other words truly countless times every day. .... S: Well, momentary like now, but only cetana or kamma now that is of the degree of being able to bring results of this degree is included in this link (not once in a lifetime occurrences by any means, but any moments of kamma-patha). This is abhisankhara ..... M:>If it's a bad one, guess > it's > time I got over it...some Paali texts would help if this notion does > want > debunking... …. S:I’m not sure this will do the trick, but from Nyantiloka’s dictionary under sankhara "1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S.XII.2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to • (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), • (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), • (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S.XII.51; D.33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere." ***** S: When I’ve discussed it further with K.Sujin, she’s stressed that in D.O. the abhisankhara only refers to kamma patha with all factors present capable of bringing results in another life rebirth consciousness. Yes, it’s momentary, like all other cittas. As I said, Sammohavinodani gives lots more detail too. I think I’ve responded to most the points. You asked for a couple of references to support my comments in other threads, but I think Nina has given some useful ones. Pls let me know if there were others. Metta, Sarah p.s I looked in the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis) which Nina mentioned for the Abhid reference for the kinds of attachment. I didn't find the same phrase we were discussing that is explained in the commentaries ('This is mine' etc) but what I found quickly is from ‘Analysis of Small Items’ 919f which gives details about kinds of tanha. Under ‘three types of seeking’ – seeking pleasure, becoming and supreme practice (Pali not handy) and then ‘three types of conceitedness’ etc. Under ‘seeking supreme practice’ it has: “Extremist view and the bad bodily action, verbal action and mental action occurring therewith…..” Also 816 ‘Latent tendency of beings’ “The seven latent tendencies are: Latent tendency to sensuous lust…repulsion…conceit…wrong view….doubt …lust for existence…ignorance… That which in the world is an unlovely thing, unpleasant thing, the tendency of bengs to repulsion for that lies latent. Thus in these two states it should be understood that ignorance continuously occurs, and coupled therewith, conceit, wrong view and doubt. This is the latent tendency of beings.” ====== 40367 From: AlanLam Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Alan > > Actually I was not saying about your mail, rather what Ven B Bodhi > said in this article he wrote which I like to discuss with Sarah. To > me what he write shows an impressive intellectual logical reasoning > yet this type of reasoning have many flaws that are not consistent > with the whole nikayas (dont even need to involve abhidhamma or > commentary to argue that his article has serious flaws), just by > showing nikayas I can counter discuss his article for the flaws. > There are two basis of serious flaws in his article first the > assertation that the jhanas experiene in the culmination of > enlightment are not supramundane and the second taking jhanas as the > de facto right concentration as said in the 8NP using DN 22 as a > basis. Others are like not taking seriously when at some sutta there > is support for one to be enlighted even after coming out of 1st > jhanas as what you wrote below (his assertation that one can only > become arahat only through the practise of four jhanas), he also > forget that one can also become enlighted after the arupa jhanas > also. Why should there be after fourth then can one be an Arahant, > which is show in the nikayas not a de facto condition. > > > What I am saying here in my previous response, is to CHANGE TRACK > > once, after having achieved Jhaana to Vipassana. Here one need not > > have to achieve 2nd, 3rd or 4th Jhaana, but with either Access or > > Entering Concentration or with 1st Jhaana. > > k: Yes there are sutta support that about coming out of 1st Jhana > one can be totally be enlighted. > > > Ven. Mahasi taught the excellent way using "Access and or Entering > > Concentration", with just enough power to be mindful of the arising > > and dissolution of the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 objects of > > craving. > Hi Ken, > k: Sorry I do not need to sit down one corner to observe the six > fold sense objects, every moment is a practise if one can see the > three characteristics to all cittas, regardless kusala or akusala > ***Here I do agree only when you are performing the 8-fold path only, that every moment is a practise, mindfulness all the time. 100% I concur with you. ***However, one still needs to sit down one corner to contemplate the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 Objects of craving, after having achieved stillness of breath, its arising and dissolution. This is Vipassana. Only through this that one's insights or wisdom arises. This is what is mentioned in Sathipattana Sutta. > > When one's breath is very, very still and subtle, one's mind will > > be very mindfully alert and sharp. This is the right moment to > then mindfull of all the arising and or dissolution of the Dharma > factors. > > k: How do one guage ones breath very subtle, I am not trying to be > sarcastic but we have to be clear what do you mean by subtle. A baby > sleeping peacefully can also have subtle breath. > **** Yes, a baby's breath can be subtle too. But there's no mindfullness in the sleeping baby. He is either in deep sleep or in dream. Whereas, when one's breath is very subtle in meditation, one's mindfullness is very alert and highly conscious of the object of contemplation. Subtleness in breath means it is very still, very soft, and one's heart-beat will be slowed down tremendously from 72 beats per seconds to, may be, 30+ to 40+ depending on one's command of one- pointedness concentration. Metta. Alan. <...> 40369 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Alan > > ***However, one still needs to sit down one corner to contemplate > the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 Objects of craving, after having > achieved stillness of breath, its arising and dissolution. This is > Vipassana. Only through this that one's insights or wisdom arises. This is what is mentioned in Sathipattana Sutta. k: Personally I think a lot of people misunderstand that Vipassana can only develop during meditation. Vipassana in simple terms is understanding of the three characteristics, as I said when there is sati-sampajanna, there is Vipassana. When an object arise in the six doors, if there is sati-sampajanna, there is Vipassana. > Whereas, when one's breath is very subtle in meditation, one's > mindfullness is very alert and highly conscious of the object of > contemplation. Subtleness in breath means it is very still, very > soft, and one's heart-beat will be slowed down tremendously from 72 beats per seconds to, may be, 30+ to 40+ depending on one's command of one- pointedness concentration. k: Why there is a need to obtain subtle breathing? Bhavana is not about achieving a certain mental concentration, it is about development of the mind. Hence another misunderstood word, bhavana. A lot of translator take this as meditation. To me, it is mental development. Ken O 40370 From: dsgmods Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:45am Subject: #40368 from Icaro All, If you received this last message from Icaro in your in box or digest, please ignore it. We consider it very offensive and inappropriate for DSG. It has been deleted from the archives. Jon & Sarah 40371 From: Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 12/30/04 6:51:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > It´s not only Akusala but I don´t give it a buck anyway!!! > All Russians deserve to die! Without exceptions! From the Oder to > Kamchatka, from New Zemlya to Bokhara, Death to all Russians!!!! > And that people fool enough to work for Russian > Maffia...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! After all the globetrotting > tourism (they couldn´t be allowed to travel outside Russia without > the holy blessings of the usual Russian Capo Maffiosi), all the > meeting with interesting people and so on, there are six entire > planes of Hell waiting for them!!!!! > ======================= Perhaps you are in a manic joking mood, in which case you might be useful, I believe, for you to realize that you are being misperceived as not joking, and that the "joke" is too raw to be amusing. On the other hand, if due to personal experiences you are quite serious, you might want to consider some samatha meditation to "take the edge off" a bit. ;-) Just some thoughts from an idle but interested observer. I hope all is well, and I wish you all the best for 2005. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40372 From: Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Hi, all - In a message dated 12/30/04 8:51:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Perhaps you are in a manic joking mood, in which case you [This should be > "it", not "you"] might be useful, I believe, for you to realize that you are > being misperceived as not joking, and that the "joke" is too raw to be > amusing. On the other hand, if due to personal experiences you are quite serious, > you might want to consider some samatha meditation to "take the edge off" a > bit. ;-) Just some thoughts from an idle but interested observer. > I hope all is well, and I wish you all the best for 2005. > > With metta, > Howard > ======================= I wrote & mailed this before reading the moderator message. I'm sorry that it appeared on the list, because I included in it some quoted material that would better have been unrepeated. I have skipped that material in this post, and I would heartily approve of the moderators expunging from the archives my reply that included the quoted material should they wish. (I approve expunging this message as well should they wish.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40373 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (210) Dear Dhamma Friends, Arising of citta [consciousness] and cetasikas [mental factors] along with rupas [materials] is called 'pavatti'[arising]. There are 2 kinds of pavatti [arising] or 2 kinds of arising of these dhammas. They are vithi-pavatti and vithi-mutta-pavatti. Vithi as explained in the Dhamma Thread (209) means 'serial'. This seriality is in an exact order for a given road or given path or given way or given track. As cittas are being talked then we may assume 'vithi' here as 'an exact order of arising of cittas in a mind track'. The arising of these vithi cittas [processing consciousness] that is 'cittas in any vithi' is called vithi-pavatti [arising of processing consciousness]. All arising of citta is pavatti. Pavatti means 'arising'. When this arising is when in vithi varas [turns of arising of exact orders of cittas] the pavatti is called vithi-pavatti or arising of vithi cittas. Another pavatti is vithi-mutta-pavatti. Mutta means 'free'. So these is no vithi or free of vithi or free of processing of consciousness. So there is no order of arising of different cittas. But only one kind of citta that is bhavanga citta [if initial in a life it becomes patisandhin citta and if final in a life it becomes cuti citta_otherwise the only citta arise is bhavanga citta and there is no ther citta and no other kinds of citta]. If one bhavanga citta passes away then another bhavanga citta has to arise in its place as long as there are kamma. As this happen as long as there is no vithi vara it is like a flow of bhavanga citta like a river. As there is no order of arising of cittas these cittas are vithi-mutta cittas and their arising [arising of these bhavanga cittas] is called vithi-mutta-pavatti. Even though these 19 bhavanga cittas are dhammas those who could not see rightly view them as such is such being and such are such beings and so on. Depending on patisandhi cittas there are 31 different realms or 31 planes of existence. These will be discussed later. When in process or when in vithi varas, cittas may be of pancadvara vithi vara or manodvara vithi vara. In pancadvara vithi vara there are 5 different kinds of vithi varas. They are 1. cakkhudvara vithi vara or cakkhuvinnana vithi vara 2. sotadvara vithi vara or sotavinnana vithi vara 3. ghanadvara vithi vara or ghanavinnana vithi vara 4. jivhadvara vithi vara or jivhavinnana vithi vara 5. kayadvara vithi vara or kayavinnana vithi vara The cittas of these vithi varas take panca-arammana or 5-sense-object. Depending on arammana or object that causing vithi cittas there are 6 different kinds of object in terms of 'arising of object' or 'visaya- pavatti'. Visaya means 'object where cittas enjoy'. These 6 visaya-pavatti or arising of object are 4 kinds for pancadvara vithi cittas and 2 kinds for manodvara vithi cittas. They are 1. atimahanta-arammana or very-clear object 2. mahanta-arammana or clear object 3. paritta-arammana or faint object 4. atiparitta-arammana or very-faint object for pancadvara vithi cittas and 5. vibhuta-arammana or specially-obvious object 6. avibhuta-arammana or obvious object for manodvara vithi cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:. different individuals, sutta. Hi Phil, This morning I came across a sutta you will like. We talked about the seven individuals: faith devotee, faith-liberated one, body-witness, twice liberated, Dhamma devotee, vision-possessed, wisdom-liberated. Gradual Sayings, book of the Tens, Ch II, §6: Worshipful. Here are ten persons. In addition to the seven there are a Buddha, a Pacceka Buddha and the person who has change of lineage, gotrabhuu. As to change-of-lineage, this is the citta arising just before the lokuttara magga-citta. It experiences nibbana, but it does not eradicate defilements, it is not lokuttara. It is one moment of citta and it is sure to be followed by the magga-citta. The point here is that it is called person. A person is a moment of citta. The next moment that person is no longer the same, he is an ariyan. The Co calls gotrabhuu the culmination of vipassana. Some people find it difficult to understand that there are four pairs of ariyans, eight persons. These are eight cittas. The path-consciousness of the sotapanna will be followed immediately by the fruition-consciousness. Two different persons means two different cittas. When one comes to think of it, it is not strange. Nina. 40375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, I read the article. A. Mun said: The mind is bound to converge in a big way; and the instant it converges, everything will appear to converge, being one and the same. The entire world will be nothing but elements. > N: What is the world? the five khandhas. True, there are only elements, dhatus, devoid of self. He then says: < At the same time, an image > will appear of the world as being level as a drum head, because the > entire world is of one and the same inherent nature. Forests, mountains, > people, animals -- even you yourself -- will all ultimately have to be > leveled down in one and the same way. Together with this vision, > knowledge arises, cutting off all doubts in the heart. This is called yatha- > bhuta-ñana-dassana vipassana: the clear insight that both knows and > sees things for what they actually are. > N: I am reticent in critizing others' articles. I want to go now straight to the Suttas. I shall repost partly what I wrote before: < ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, that he spoke to Ananda about the elements: ³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is skilled in the elements.¹ ² All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the sense-cognitions. We then read about the element of mind (mano dhåtu), which includes the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness (the first citta in a sense-door process), the receiving-consciousness (vipåkacitta, arising in a process after the sense-cognition of seeing. etc) and the determining-consciousness (votthapana, arising in a sense-door process just before the javana-cittas that are kusala or akusala). As to the element of ³mental states² (dhamma dhåtu), these are the dhammas that are experienced through the mind-door: all rúpas other than the sense objects, cittas, cetasikas and nibbåna. As to the element of mental consciousness (manoviññåna dhåtu), this includes all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas and dying-consciousness. All these elements are realities of our daily life. They arise all the time but we do not realize that they are elements, devoid of self... We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse, all these elements appear clearly, just as the reflection of his face clearly appears to someone using a mirror. Therefore, the Buddha said to Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the ³Mirror of Dhamma². We have many defilements and we are troubled by many kinds of contrarieties in our life. We think of other persons who treat us in a disagreeable way. However, we can learn that, in the ultimate sense, there is not ³me², not the other person, but that there are only elements or dhammas. Dhammas can appear as clearly as the reflection in a mirror.... We need endless patience and perseverance in the development of vipassanå. We have to consider nåma and rúpa and be aware of them so that we become familiar with their different characteristics. It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not experience anything. > I find the suttas very clear and direct. Abhidhamma is taught in the suttas, as Suan recently stressed. Why is that? To help us in the development of direct understanding of what is real at this moment. As we read: there are the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness. The impinging of visible object on the eyesense is the condition for seeing. Each element (except nibbana, which is the uncondiitoned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we may not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampajañña. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows. Nina. op 29-12-2004 04:55 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Please read the following two extracted paragraphs from the lecture, > and I would very much appreciate to know what you think. 40376 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Sarah and Mike, I wrote this to Howard: ,,,, the wrong view ...the conceit ... There are these obsessions, or or . .. These three ways of clinging are illustrated with examples. A person thinks I am a ruler, a Brahmin, and he can think with these three papañcas.> Nina. op 30-12-2004 10:48 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > p.s I looked in the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis) which Nina mentioned for > the Abhid reference for the kinds of attachment. I didn't find the same > phrase we were discussing that is explained in the commentaries ('This is > mine' etc) 40377 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:03pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Thanks for getting back to me concerning my questions and comments. Jon: I was just speaking conventinally. I know that I am definitely in the 'beginner' category, since awarenss and indight are weak and undeveloped. James: Thanks for answering, but I didn't really want a personal analysis. I wanted something more general. However, since you did reply on a personal basis, I don't know how you could say that about yourself! Are you just being modest or are you being serious? I would consider someone very far from the Buddha's teachings (ohhhh… maybe, Anna Nicole Smith? ;-)) to be in the `beginner' category with weak insight and awareness. You have been a practicing Buddhist for how many years? And you still think you have weak awareness and insight? Come on!! As the Buddha taught: "And how is a monk one with a sense of himself? There is the case where a monk knows himself: 'This is how far I have come in conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick- wittedness.' If he didn't know himself -- 'This is how far I have come in conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick- wittedness' -- he wouldn't be said to be one with a sense of himself. So it's because he does know himself -- 'This is how far I have come in conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick-wittedness' -- that he is said to be one with a sense of himself. This is one with a sense of Dhamma, a sense of meaning, & a sense of himself." Jon: The sutta itself is silent on the question of whether the path factors are descriptive of the moment of path entry or development of the path, or are factors to be developed separately and individually, so either explanation involves an element of interpretation. James: Well, that could be, but the Buddha didn't need to explain so explicitly what the Noble Eightfold Path is, since it is rather common sense. For example, Right Speech and Right Livelihood are ongoing path factors and therefore couldn't be a moment of `path entry'. Perhaps you could go through each of the path factors and explain how they each arise at path entry? Honestly, I am very curious about this because I don't understand. A part of me agrees with you and a part of me doesn't. After all, I believe that all eight path factors must be in play at the same moment of enlightenment, or one couldn't realize the Four Noble Truths. However, I think that this is different than what you are suggesting. Could you be so kind as to explain further? Metta, James 40378 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:28pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, Thank you for this response to my post, and I apologize for my delay in responding. Sarah: James – `those several views' is a translation of anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo meaning many, various or manifold wrong view. As I quoted from another sutta, when self doctrines or views are eradicated, so are all other wrong views.] James: Anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo means many, various or manifold wrong view. Okay. Does it mean ALL wrong view? Again, what is the sutta stating. Sarah: As I quoted from another sutta, when self doctrines or views are eradicated, so are all other wrong views. James: What other sutta did you quote from which stated that?? Please quote that sutta again, please. Sarah: Herman & James, I want to quote some of the useful notes Nyanaponika refers to above in the sutta, but I'll put them at the end of this post after signing off. James: Sarah, no offense, but you quote far too much material as it is! Please only quote those things that are relevant or, if you feel that other information is relevant, please provide your own analysis explaining why it is relevant. For example, in my previous post on this thread I quoted two stanzas of the Sallekha Sutta with one note of commentary and you have responded in this post with six paragraphs of the introduction by Nyanaponika, three stanzas of the sutta, and 10 commentary notes! And in-between all of this onslaught of information you have only given me one paragraph of personal analysis (which I have already quoted in this post…that's all I have to work with!). Sarah: James, as I say, this is more rushed than intended. James: I could understand that; I have been there also. BTW, did you personally type all of this information or copy paste from somewhere else? Metta, James ps. Happy New Year to you and everyone!! 40379 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 88 - Volition/cetanaa (r) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Questions i There is cetanå also when we are sound asleep. What is its function at such a moment? ii When we observe síla what is the function of cetanå? iii Which cetasika is akusala kamma or kusala kamma? iv How can a deed performed in the past produce a result later on? v What kind of result can be produced by akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) which is completed? vi What are the other forms of vipåka produced by kamma, apart from rebirth-consciousness? vii What is the effect of the accumulation of tendencies to good and evil? viii When we laugh is there akusala citta? ix When we are daydreaming can there be akusala citta? x What are the conditions for kusala citta to arise more often? ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa)finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 40380 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew L, Good to be discussing the Dhamma with you again! --- Andrew Levin wrote: > OK. Hopefully this will serve to get us all more knowledgeable about > the Buddha's teachings so that we can practise correctly and acheive > further realization. … S: I feel the same Thank you very much for sharing all the detail about how you view the Abhidhamma, the Satipatthana Sutta and how you see your practice ‘moving into the streets and being ‘mindful in the present moment’ ‘.There’s plenty to discuss here. I'll just extract a few parts now. > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: <….> > Some of you may take it to be one nama or rupa at a time, but I see > the material in the chapter on compendium of consciousness to be > known as it appears in reality, as part of my practise, specifically > related to the section of the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta regarding > contemplation on consciousness. …. S: It’s a good idea to compare the contents of the Abhidammattha Sangaha (as we are reading it in CMA) with the Satipatthana Sutta and to relate it to practice. So in the first text, after the introduction, we read that: “The things contained in the Abhidhamma, spoken of therein, are altogether fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbana.” These are the only dhammas that can ever be understood or realized. Consciousness (citta) is included in cittaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa, the third and fourth foundations of mindfulness. Mental factors (cetasikas) are included in vedanaanupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa Matter (rupas) are included in kaayaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa (Nibbana is not included in these four foundations because the development of satipatthana as described in the sutta is concerned with the development of mundane awareness and wisdom.) So these are all the same namas and rupas being described which can only be known when they are experienced. For example, the first kind of consciousness mentioned in the sutta is ‘the consciousness with lust’. This can only be known when it arises, though we can read and theoretically understand more details about it anytime. Is there attachment now? If so, there can be awareness of it immediately without any special concentration or attention. This is how satipatthana can be understood. From the sub-commentery to the Satipatthana Sutta: “In the consciousness with lust, lust occurs as a mental concomitant arising and passing away along with a conscious state and sharing with that conscious state the object and basis of consciousness.” In other words, we’re used to thinking of ourselves or others as being greedy or having attachment, but we learn in both the Abhidhamma and the suttas that there are just these cittas and cetasikas arising and passing away and that it’s quite possible for awareness to be aware of these states from time to time. .... <...> >...I immediately remembered a > suggestion by the Buddha to his monks that on guarding the sense > doors, one can go to heaven, or by neglecting to guard the sense > doors, one can go to hell, so I began guarding my sense doors. …. S: And the meaning of guarding the sense doors is the understanding and development of satipatthana when objects or dhammas impinge on these sense doors. First of all there has to be the understanding of what the dhammas (realities) in our life are so that they can be known, rather than being swept away by trains of thinking about concepts which are purely imagined. Like you say later ‘if no one is there to have a problem, there is no problem.’ In other words, the problems in life are those problems conceptualized and imagined. Even lust or hatred are not problems in the sense that they can be known. They can be the objects of awareness when they arise and are seen as merely conditioned elements, not a person. … <...> > There is a verse in Dhammapada about the nature of ignorance, and > even telling you to 'free yourself from it.' …. S: We can say ‘free yourself from ignorance’, but in truth it is the development of the eightfold path with right understanding as leader which does the freeing. So we have to distinguish our convenrional use of language from the strict understanding of the real meaning behind the words which we read about in the Abhidhamma. Most importantly, we have to remember there’s no self ever. As you say, ‘our goal is to extinguish our defilements and attain the supramundane paths’, but this will only ever happen by the patient development of satipatthana. You asked whether my goal ‘of experiencing namas and rupas one way at a time is aimed towards this same goal’. The answer is 'yes' as I’ve tried to explain above. Satipatthana is the experiencing and awareness of namas and rupas one at a time. Only one is ever the object of the cittas when awareness and understanding can arise. If it’s a citta with attachment or lust, it’s not the time to be aware of anger. If it is hardness being experienced as one types, it’s not the time to be aware of feeling or attachment. If my understanding of practice makes my life more complicated or difficult, I question the understanding. It’s not about having another kind of experience, but of understanding what is being experienced now very naturally, whether out in the street or sitting in the waiting room as you describe. As Nina wrote to another friend yesterday: “Each element (except nibana, which is the unconditioned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we many not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampaja~n~na [which we read about in the Satipatthana Sutta]. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows.” Look forward to your feedback. Maybe we can quote little bits from CMA as we go along and as you suggest in effect, look at ways of narrowing our different understandings of what we read. Metta and Best Wishes for the New Year. Sarah ========> 40381 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Indroduction Hi Charles, I just wished to thank you for kindly giving the extra intro details. Very interesting! --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi all, my name is Charles DaCosta, I live in Denmark. I was born and > razed in the USA (east coast) but have lived in Denmark since 97. > > I am 43 years old, had a good Christian upbringing (training that is), > and been involved in Buddhism since 1974. At different times I had > planed to be Christian minister, a monk (Therevadin), and a Lama. > However, life has not seen it fit for me to do either for more than > teaching a class here and there. I have also trained in Zen. .... S: You obviously developed an interest at a very young age and it's curious how life works out so differently from our plans and dreams! .... > > I practice martial artist (Chinese mainly) most of my life, and I tend > to use it as a vehicle to teach Buddhism and Taoism. > > By profession I am a software engineer with several different types of > degrees. .... S: You'll get on well with Engineer RobM's analogies here.....;-). Enjoying all your posts and reflections, Charles Metta, Sarah ===== 40382 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Hi Betty & Howard, Both your letters to Icaro were very kind, compassionate and understanding as usual. --- mombetty@y... wrote: <...> > This is one of the > wonderful > things about the study of abhidhamma: it helps us to "see", through deep > > thought and contemplation, how all of that which we take for "self" is > merely the interaction of various phenomena because of conditions. There > is > nothing for "us" to attach to because there is no "us", nor are there > "things" because these are only concepts created by the mind. This > thought, > when it arises, is a great aid to realizing, and then, letting go of > "our" > defilements, i.e., those things "we" are attached to (including that > which > we don't like since we are also "attached" to getting away from what > "we" > don't like) .... Betty, these are all great reminders and we should thank Icaro for bringing you out of lurking mode;-). Lookin forward to more in the New Year. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, your posts were perfectly fine in all regards. Don't worry. ======================================= 40383 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 0:17am Subject: Happy New Year 2005!!! Hello all, Happy 2005!!! Turn up the volume & make sure to pop all the ballons -- enjoy! http://web.icq.com/friendship/swf/0,,16961_rs,00.swf Hope everyone has a wonderful and Happy New Year!!!! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40384 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Thank you for this response to my post, and I apologize for my delay > in responding. … S: You’ve caught the British and Candian apology syndrome;-). Actually, I’ve got several of your posts in front of me waiting for replies – you’ve been very patient. I’ll try to stick to your specific questions and find a middle path between not giving ‘a personal analysis’ (see yr comment to Jon) and ‘providing (my) own anyalysis ‘(see yr comment to me);-). … > James: Anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo means many, various or manifold wrong > view. Okay. Does it mean ALL wrong view? Again, what is the sutta > stating. ….. S: Yes. That’s why I overloaded you with commentary detail and Nyanaponika’s comments about that detail as I knew you wouldn’t be impressed by just my take!! … > James: What other sutta did you quote from which stated that?? > Please quote that sutta again, please. …. S:This is from my post on the 23rd Dec to TG. I’ve referred to it twice recently and also to several other suttas in my discussion: >S: As you’ve agreed, all other wrong views depend on sakkaya-ditthi and when it is eradicated, so are they: From SN 41:3 Isidatta (2), Bodhi transl: “Now, householder, are you asking thus: ‘Venerable elder, there are various views that arise in the world: “The world is eternal”….- these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?’ “ “Yes, venerable sir.” “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’….-These as well as the sixty two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.” …. S:All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong view of self) is eradicated. …. >J:….For example, in my previous > post on this thread I quoted two stanzas of the Sallekha Sutta with > one note of commentary and you have responded in this post with six > paragraphs of the introduction by Nyanaponika, three stanzas of the > sutta, and 10 commentary notes! … S: it was a bit of overkill, I agree. Even then I was having a hard time not adding another 10 comentary notes in addition;-). It all seemed very relevant to me to our discussions and to points you and Herman were raising. If there’s anything you’d particularly like further personal analysis on, just let me know. … >And in-between all of this onslaught > of information you have only given me one paragraph of personal > analysis (which I have already quoted in this post…that's all I have > to work with!). … S: To be honest, James, I didn’t realize you were so interested in my analysis. I’d already made many comments on the same topic in my thread with TG, but I’ll try to find the right balance for you in future. Btw, I didn’t type it all, it was from a wheel on line, I believe at the link you gave us. The other suttas quoted from in the thread with TG (looking at your other post which says I haven’t given any quotes from suttas) were the Khemaka Sutta and Anathapindika Sutta. I understand that your interpretation may well be different and if you prefer not to refer to the commentary in such a case, that’s no problem. Your recent set of posts have all been full of good material for reflection and further consideration btw. In another post to me (#40140) you quote from a sutta which refers to the fetters eradicated by a stream-winner as being ‘self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts and practices…’. So clearly even in these suttas, self views are totally eradicated and thereby (see sutta above) all wrong views. The commentaries merely confirm this. As wrong views are totally eradicated so is the (wrong) grasping at any wrong practices. There is no doubt about the further development of satipatthana and the understanding of conditioned dhammas. No self to do anything at all. And how are such wrong views eradicated? For this, looking at the first part of the Upanisa Sutta you quoted, we read: >Upanisa Sutta >While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said: "The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs.< .... S: In other words, the understanding of the khandhas, of the various namas and rupas when they appear and can be known. And yes (in answer to other qus you raised in post #40056), when I wrote ‘This is why seeing and visible object and the other sense experiences and objects have to be known for what they are’, I mean ‘seeing’ with the help of the eye-base here as opposed to understanding as in the sutta passage above. However, it's not the physical eye that does the seeing in this sense. Why? Because the eye-base is a rupa (or ever changing rupas) and rupas cannot experience anything. They merely support the seeing consciousness which experiencs the visible object which is contacted. (Ignore that part if it's too Abhidhamma for your likeing). Why is it given so much emphasis in the suttas? I think as Phil put it, this is where the ‘fire starts’ (#40041). He quoted this one: “On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its signs and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil, unwholesome states of consciousness and grief might invade him, he practices the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty.” (from MN 27:15). Gosh, now you’re going to tell me I’m providing over-kill on the suttas and analysis now, so I’d better stop. James, thanks again for your contributions and efforts to keep me on your tracks. I look forward to your further comments. Have a wonderful New Year yourself with lots of wisdom. Metta, Sarah ======== 40385 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Agrios, I never replied to this message of yours - apologies too. --- agriosinski wrote: > > S: Yes, no problem. When there is lobha (as root condition), it has > the > > power or force to bring about/condition various dhammas. No self or > thing > > or essence involved. > A:> Sarah, > plaese expalain how can we have lobha without self being involved. > By "thing or essence" you mean dhammas or something else? .... S: What I mean is that whether or not we've ever heard the Buddha's teachings, there are only the 5 khandhas at work with no self or thing anywhere except in our minds. For example, seeing is not self, hearing is not self, thinking is not self, feeling is not self and so on. Just different namas and rupas involved conditioning and being conditioned by each other in multiple complex ways. Now it's true that often when there is attachment there is also a wrong view of self involved too. But it's only ever a wrong view. It doesn't exist. By 'thing or essence' here, I meant that lobha is just lobha, it's not something lasting or with any self or substance involved. It's just a dhamma or element which arises when there are the right conditions and then falls away. Good questions. I was also interested in your comment in another post (#39924) to me, but you'd need to elaborate as I wasn't quite clear of your meaning.You wrote "that whole D.O. runs in namarupa and not in "the world" as it is analyzed by various commentaries." Also there is no ME to turn into namarupa as you seemed to suggest, but I may have misunderstood. Happy New Year. Metta, Sarah ==== 40386 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Nina & Mike,(KenH at the end;-), Thank you for the extract below, Nina. I had got behind with my reading and only read your other post to Howard today! It helps to keep up-to-date so that one doesn't go looking in the text for something just quoted! Also your post #40258 on feelings is exactly on the topic of what I was writing yesterday. Mike, I'm sure you've read it now too. "Tiika Text: For the profitableness of profitable feeling is not due to its association with profitable consciousness, but rather to wise attention and so on. That is why he said "as to kind (jaati)" So too in the case of the unprofitable and so on' (Pm 481)." Lots more in it. Of course, manasikara is a universal too which arises with all jaatis and when it is kusala or akusala conditions the accompanying feeling etc, Mike. I also see that you (Nina) adds: "The Tiika adds that although feelings can be classified to three jaatis, it can also be classified as eightynine-fold since they accompany all eightynine cittas. Each type of citta is different and thus also its accompanying feeling is different. Even cittas of the same type are different and thus also feeling can never be the same." Again, I could have just quoted your post and references here! I think it helps a lot to appreciate how different feelings are from moment to moment - so there's no clinging to any idea of a fixed feeling or constant feeling arising with particular states. The same functions and characteristics in common, but each one is as different as each visible object, each sound or each moment of thinking, for example. Happy New Year to both of you and Lodewijk and everyone here, Metta, Sarah p.s KenH, I meant to add a little more on our thread - I agree that your choice of translation from Sn was a better one than mine. I tend to use Saddhatissa's because I have the hard copy of his text and because he was always so kind to me;-). ... --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Mike, > I wrote this to Howard: > ...one gets the wish ,,,, the wrong view ...the conceit am>... > There are these obsessions, or or otherwise>. .. > These three ways of clinging are illustrated with examples. A person > thinks > I am a ruler, a Brahmin, and he can think with these three papañcas.> 40387 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:49am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Text: It is fivefold according to the analysis into [bodily] pleasure, [bodily] pain, [mental] joy, [mental] grief, and equanimity. N: The Tiika states that this fivefold classification merely takes into account the nature of feeling, beginning with pleasure, not the accompanying dhammas, the plane of citta, or the object that is experienced. The Tiika explains that pleasure, sukha, causes happiness (sukhayati, makes happy) to the body and the accompanying dhammas, whereas pain, dukkha, causes unhappiness (dukkhayati) to the body and afflicts the accompanying dhammas. We read that a question is asked why unpleasant feeling is classified as bodily and mental, and pleasant feeling as bodily and mental, but upekkhaa, indifferent feeling as single fold? The answer is that upekkhaa is only mental. There is no indifferent feeling that accompanies body-consciousness. The impact of tangible object (three great elements) on the bodybase is forceful and direct, just as when cottonwool is placed on an anvil and is struck with a hammer, the hammer goes through the cottonwool and strikes the anvil. Therefore, when body-consciousness experiences an unpleasant object it is accompanied by painful bodily feeling, and when it experiences a pleasant object it is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling. It is not accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Expositor (II, p. 349) explains <... But in the door of the bodily surface the external great essential itself [the great Element] as the object strikes the internal sentient organism and impinges on the [internal] great essentials which are the cause of the [internal] sensory stimulation. As when the cotton lump, placed on top of the anvil, is struck with a hammer, the hammer breaks through the cotton and ³takes² the anvil, and the friction is strong, so the friction of the impact is strong.> We read in the Co to the Abhidhammaatha Sangaha (T.A. p. 22): Dependent ruupas (upada ruupas) or derived rupas are all ruupas other than the four great elements. Text Vis: Herein, 'pleasure' is associated with profitable resultant body-consciousness (38) and 'pain' with unprofitable resultant body-consciousness (54). N: The Tiika explains that the object of body-consciousness accompanied by pleasant feeling has an object that is desirable or moderately desirable. 'Text Vis: Joy' is associated with 62 kinds of consciousness, namely, as to sense sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (1)-(4), with 4 resultant with root-cause (42)-(45),with 1 resultant without root-cause (40), with 4 functional with root-cause (73)-(76), with 1 functional without root-cause (72), and with 4 unprofitable (22)-(25) N: These are: four of the eight mahaa-kusala cittas, four mahaa-vipaakacittas that are their results, one type of ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta that is santiira.na-citta, investigating-consciousness (when the object is very desirable), four mahaa-kiriyacittas, one ahetuka kiriyacitta, that is the smile-producing consciousness of the arahat, and four akusala cittas rooted in attachment. These kaamavacara cittas are eighteen types. Text Vis: and as to the fine-material-sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (9)-(12), 4 resultant (57)-(60), and 4 functional (81)-(84), leaving out that of the fifth jhana in each case; but there is no supramundane without jhana and consequently the [eight] kinds of supramundane (18)-(21) and (66)-(69) multiplied by the five jhanas make forty; but leaving out the eight associated with the fifth jhana, it is associated with the remaining 32 kinds of profitable resultant. N: four ruupaavacara kusala cittas (of four jhaanas), four ruupaavacara vipaakacittas, four ruupaavacara kiriyacittas. The fifth stage of ruupajhaanacitta is not accompanied by happy feeling, but by indifferent feeling. When lokuttara cittas are counted as lokuttara jhaanacittas, that is, accompanied by jhaanafactors, there are, instead of eight lokuttara cittas, forty lokuttara cittas. Also for those who attain enlightenment without having developed jhaana, concentration accompanying lokuttara citta has the strength of jhaana; it can be counted as lokuttara jhaanacitta accompanied by the factors of the first stage of jhaana. Thirtytwo types of lokuttara cittas are accompanied by happy feeling since jhaanacitta of the fifth stage is accompanied by indifferent feeling. There are sixtytwo cittas in all accompanied by happy feeling. Text Vis.: 'Grief' is associated with the two kinds of unprofitable (30)-(31). ' N: The two types of dosa-muulacittas are the only types accompanied by unhappy feeling. Text Vis: Equanimity is associated with the remaining fifty-five kinds of consciousness. N: When lokuttara jhaanacittas are taken into account, cittas are counted as hundred and twentyone. When we subtract sixtytwo cittas with happy feeling, the two kinds of bodyconsciousness with bodily feelings of pain and pleasure and the two cittas rooted in dosa accompanied by unhappy feeling, there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Conclusion: ====== It is useful to classify feelings, this helps us to know when feeling is kusala, akusala or indeterminate. For example, we should remember that body-consciousness and its accompanying feeling are vipaaka, the result of kamma. We should not confuse bodily painful feeling and pleasant feeling with unhappy feeling and happy feeling accompanying akusala cittas. When we have pain akusala cittas with dislike are bound to arise very rapidly after the vipaakacittas. When we experience pleasant bodily feeling such as an agreeable temperature, lobha-muulacittas are bound to arise soon after the vipaakacittas. The conditions for happy feeling accompanying kusala citta are different from the conditions for happy feeling accompanying lobha-muulacitta. Conditions for happy feeling accompanying kusala citta are understanding of what kusala is, an abundance of confidence in the benefit of kusala, and in the case of generosity a suitable object to be given and someone to receive the gift. Conditions for happy feeling that accompanies lobha-muulacitta are rebirth-consciousness accompanied by happy feeling and a desirable object. Lobha-muulacitta can also be accompanied by the wrong view that there is no danger in sense pleasures. One may pursue them with happy feeling and wrong view. It is useful to know that four types of lobha-muulacitta are accompanied by pleasant feeling and four types by indifferent feeling. When feeling is indifferent we may think that there is no attachment but we should remember that for example immediately after seeing attachment is bound to arise. When attachment is accompanied by indifferent feeling we do not notice it. All classifications of feelings remind us that they each have their own conditions for their arising and that they are without owner. They are mere elements devoid of self. ***** Nina. 40388 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread (211) Dear Dhamma Friends, Depending on the number of arising of vithi cittas or 'consciousness in procession' there are four different types of object recognized. They are 1. atimahanta-arammana or 'very clear object' 2. mahanta-arammana or 'clear object' 3. paritta-arammana or 'faint object' 4. atiparitta-arammana or 'very faint object' in 5-door citta processions or pancadvara vithi vara. Ati means 'excess' 'great' 'very' and mahanta means 'great'. So atimahanta means 'very very great' or 'very clear'. Arammana means 'object'. Paritta means 'weak' 'faint' 'unclear' 'lesser' 'fewer'. Actually these objects are taken into account depending on total number of vithi cittas or consciousness in procession in a given object. Otherwise all objects are the same in terms of performing their function of serving as arammana or object of consciousness. In very clear object, there are maximal number of vithi cittas in that given object as compared to other 3 kinds of object. An object just lasts 17 moments or 17 citta-kkhanas. In a very clear object, 14 cittas out of 17 possible cittas are vithi cittas. This is the highest number of cittas among different kinds of object. Rupa cannot serve as an object as soon as it appears because it is still weak in its initial arising or formation. In this object of very clear or atimahanta-arammana, after 3 bhavanga cittas pass away the first vithi citta can arise. There are 3 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas in the name of atita bhavanga citta or past bhavanga, bhavanga calana or vibrating bhavanga and bhavanguppaccheda or arresting bhavanga citta. At the time when the last vithi citta passes away, the object rupa also passes away. [3 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas + 14 vithi cittas = 17 cittas = 1 rupa] In clear object or mahanta-arammana, 12 vithi cittas out of 17 possible cittas arise. This is not as many as in the object of atimahanta-arammana. So it is just called mahanta-arammana. Ati means 'excess' 'great'. After passing away of 4 bhavanga cittas or 5 bhavanga cittas, the first vithi citta-pancadvaravajjana citta is able to take the current object [rupa] which is now 5-moment-old or 6- moment-old. There are 4 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas followed by 12 vithi cittas and 1 post-vithi bhavanga citta. At the time when post-vithi bhavanga citta passes away the original object rupa also passes away. Another possible mahanta-arammana or clear object is that there are 5 pre- vithi bhavanga cittas followed by 12 vithi cittas. At the time when the last vithi citta passes away the original object rupa also passes away. a)[4 pre-vithi bhavanga + 12 vithi cittas +1 post-vithi bhavanga = 17] b)[5 pre-vithi bhavanga + 12 vithi cittas +0 post-vithi = 17 cittas] In faint object or paritta-arammana, there are only 6 vithi cittas out of 17 possible vittas during the existence of that object. There are 4 atita-bhavanga cittas followed by bhavanga calana citta and bhavanguppaccheda citta just before arising of vithi cittas. So there are 6 bhavanga cittas before vithi cittas. After that follow pancadvaravajjana citta, pancavinnana citta, sampaticchana citta, santirana citta, and 2 votthapana cittas altogether 6 vithi cittas. After this follow another 5 bhavanga cittas. There are 6 possible paritta-arammanas or 6 possible faint objects. 1.6 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas + 6 vithi cittas + 5 post-vithi bhavanga 2.7 pre-vithi bhavanga + 6 vithi cittas + 4 post-vithi bhavanga 3.8 pre-vithi bhavanga + 6 vithi cittas + 3 post-vithi bhavanga 4.9 pre-vithi bhavanga + 6 vithi cittas + 2 post-vithi bhavanga 5.10 pre-vithi bhavanga +6 vithi cittas + 1 post-vithi bhavanga 6.11 pre-vithi bhavanga +6 vithi cittas + and at the disappearance of the last vithi citta the object rupa also falls away. In very faint object or ati-paritta-arammana there is virtually none of vithi cittas at all. But there are 2 bhavanga calana cittas. This vithi vara is called mogha vara. Mogha means 'without things' 'useless' 'without-value'. Here it means 'without any vithi cittas'. But unlike normal bhavanga cittas there does have effect of object in bhavanga citta serial flow. That is 2 bhavanga calana cittas. There are 6 possible kinds of atiparitta-arammana or very faint object. 1.10 pre-calana bhavanga + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 5 post-calana 2.11 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 4 post-calana 3.12 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 3 post-calana 4.13 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 2 post-calana 5.14 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 1 post-calana 6.15 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + and at the time the 2nd bhavana calana citta passes away the original object rupa also passes away. I think, this is my own opinion, that there is no clear object or faint object from perspective of rupa side. All rupa of panca- arammanas are the same in terms of their life span that is 17 citta- kkhanas. The classification of very clear, clear, faint, and very faint are from the view point of viewers or perceivers. This means that any object is fully apperceived after the end of 7th javana cittas. When javana cittas can arise the given object is called clear object or mahanta-arammana and when there are 2 tadarammana cittas along with 7 javana cittas that object is named very clear object or atimahanta-arammana. So this is from the view point of possibility of arising of javana cittas who are full apperceivers. Objects are the same whether javana cittas arise or not. They all will just last 17 citta-kkhanas. In faint object or paritta-arammana there is no javana cittas at all. There are some vithi cittas but they end up with votthapana cittas who are still unable to determine how to apperceive. The object is the same at any given time that is they will last 17 citta-kkhanas. Rupa does not need to be clear or be faint. But as javana cittas cannot arise here it is called faint object from view point of perceivers cittas. Votthapana cittas which is manodvaravajjana citta cannot apperceive fully and it does not realize the object. The last object called 'very faint object' or 'atiparitta-arammana' does not have any vithi cittas. All 17 cittas during the existence of rupa arebhavanga cittas. But there does have vibration or tremulousness or shakiness because of arising of rupa. This object is also counted in visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40389 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, Sarah: You've caught the British and Canadian apology syndrome ;-). James: Hehehe…that could be. BTW, I was tutoring a college student for semester exams and I ran across something in a college textbook that I thought was funny and it reminded me of DSG and our frequent failures to communicate. From `English for Business Communication' (Published in England by Simon Sweeney and being used at a Canadian College in Cairo): "Remember too that different cultures have different ways of using language. Some speak in a very literal way so it is always quite clear what they mean. Others are more indirect, using hints, suggestions and understatement,(for example `not very good results' = `absolutely disastrous') to put over their message. North America, Scandinavia, Germany and France are `explicit' countries, while the British have a reputation for not making clear exactly what they mean. One reason for this seems to be that the British uses language in a more abstract way than most Americans and continental Europeans. In Britain there are also conventions of politeness and a tendency to avoid showing one's true feelings. For example, if a Dutchman says an idea is `interesting' he means that it is interesting. If an Englishman says that an idea is `interesting' you have to deduce from the way he says it whether he means a good idea or a bad idea." Sarah: That's why I overloaded you with commentary detail and Nyanaponika's comments about that detail as I knew you wouldn't be impressed by just my take!! James: Of course I would be impressed by your take. I am having a conversation with you, not Nyanaponika. ;-) Sarah: As you've agreed, all other wrong views depend on sakkaya- ditthi and when it is eradicated, so are they: From SN 41:3 Isidatta (2), Bodhi transl: James: Ah, hah! Now this idea is very, very `interesting'! ;-)) I did not agree that all wrong views are based on sakkaya-ditthi; that has been what I am arguing. Please provide a quote from the Buddha which states that all wrong views, past, present, and future, are based on personality belief and then I will believe you and I will agree with the commentaries (BTW, I also agree with TG that it is quite possible that some derivatives of wrong view based on personality belief might slip into the mind stream of the sotapanna, since the roots are not yet destroyed, as is suggested by the sutta by Sariputta. But I am not going to argue that since I don't have a lot of evidence in support). Sarah: All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong view of self) is eradicated. James: Okay, now I want more than just your personal opinion. Where did the Buddha state that ALL wrong views are included in these 62 speculative views? These are speculative views based on a belief in self; however, ignorance could produce some additional wrong views. Sarah: it was a bit of overkill, I agree. Even then I was having a hard time not adding another 10 comentary notes in addition;-). James: LOL! Yeah, I know how you are. You showed great restraint by not giving me even more information (directly relevant or not)! ;-)) Sarah: I'd already made many comments on the same topic in my thread with TG, but I'll try to find the right balance for you in future. James: Well, you don't have to knock yourself out to please me, just tell me how what you quote is relevant to what we are discussing. Just chalk it up to me being a lazy American...I don't like to think on my own. ;-)) Sarah: The other suttas quoted from in the thread with TG (looking at your other post which says I haven't given any quotes from suttas) were the Khemaka Sutta and Anathapindika Sutta. James: You haven't given any quotes from suttas which prove your point exactly. You have only quoted commentary notes which state your point exactly and the suttas you have quoted give relational types of statements. Sarah: Have a wonderful New Year yourself with lots of wisdom. James: You too! Happy 2005! Metta, James 40390 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James buddhatrue wrote: >Jon: Is it your understanding of this passage that the first jhana >is sufficient, and if not then why is it mentioned here? Put another >way, why are all 4 jhanas mentioned rather than just the level that >is sufficient? > >James: I am not quite sure what you mean by "sufficient", but I am >going to assume you mean `sufficient to be deemed Right >Concentration'. Yes, the first jhana would be sufficient enough to >be considered Right Concentration, but one who achieves the first >jhana should not be satisfied with simply that. The four jhanas are >really one jhana, it is just a greater purification of the jhana. >In the first jhana the concentration is more gross and unsteady and >then it becomes more and more refined all the way up to the fourth >jhana. Therefore, to be really right Right Concentration, all four >jhanas should be achieved. Does this answer your question? > > What I meant to ask was whether, on your reading of Right Concentration of the Nobel Eightfold Path, the attainment of the first jhana was sufficient to support enlightenment. I ask this because if it is then there should be no need to also mention the other, higher jhanas. >Metta, >James >Ps. Happy Holidays to you and everyone! > > Thanks, James. And the same to you. Jon 40391 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:40am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Text: It is fivefold according to the analysis into ..snip.. ..snip..snip... N: When lokuttara jhaanacittas are taken into account, cittas are counted as hundred and twentyone. When we subtract sixtytwo cittas with happy feeling, the two kinds of bodyconsciousness with bodily feelings of pain and pleasure and the two cittas rooted in dosa accompanied by unhappy feeling, there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Conclusion: ====== It is useful to classify feelings, this helps us to know when feeling is kusala, akusala or indeterminate. For example, ..snip.. They are mere elements devoid of self. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, In your opening of this mail the numbers are right. But later, you said 'there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling'. There are 55 upekkha cittas out of 121 total cittas. 62 are somanassa cittas, 1 sukha citta, 1 dukkha citta, 2 domanassa cittas (121 - 66 = 55 cittas not 52 cittas). Thanks for your tiika and explanation on feeling of different cittas. The whole post is very clear. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40392 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend James, Just briefly... --- buddhatrue wrote: James: Hehehe…that could be. BTW, I was tutoring a college student > for semester exams and I ran across something in a college textbook > that I thought was funny and it reminded me of DSG and our frequent > failures to communicate. > .... S: Yes funny and accurate;-).I could give lots of examples....i hope you understand now why I go in circles;-). .... > James: Ah, hah! Now this idea is very, very `interesting'! ;-)) I > did not agree that all wrong views are based on sakkaya-ditthi; that > has been what I am arguing. Please provide a quote from the Buddha > which states that all wrong views, past, present, and future, are > based on personality belief and then I will believe you ... S: Ah now the goal posts are being moved!! It's no longer good enough to hand you a perfect quote from a sutta if it's not the Buddha himself speaking. If it was good enough for the arahants at the First Council, why isn't it good enough for you? LOL! "when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be." .... > Sarah: All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views > mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong > view of self) is eradicated. > > James: Okay, now I want more than just your personal opinion. Where > did the Buddha state that ALL wrong views are included in these 62 > speculative views? These are speculative views based on a belief in > self; however, ignorance could produce some additional wrong views. .... S: In the Brahmajala Sutta itself, given by the Buddha and the very first sutta recited at the First Council;-). At the end of each section, The Buddha says: "Outside of these there is none". They are all -inclusive.This is why it is called Brahmajala or 'The All-embracing Net of Views'. In his introduction to the sutta, B.Bodhi writes: "Just as a fisherman casting his net over a small pond can be sure that all fish of a certain size will be caught within the net, so the Buddha declares, whatever thinkers speculate about the past or the future can with certainty be found within the net of his teaching." Only a Buddha could determine and sort all these particular views - it's said to be one of the 4 times the extent of a Buddha's wisdom is evident along with the Vinaya, the classification of dhammas and the teaching of conditions and dependent origination, I believe. Ok, I'll leave you to prepare for the New Year. For us, it's going to be an early bed and an early hike looking for some frost on the mountain tops. Metta, Sarah ======= 40393 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > I'm not really sure you do entirely disagree with me. I'm not speaking > about reasoning as yielding truth. I'm speaking about exhausting our > reasoning, seeing the ultimate futility of it, seeing through it as > ultimately impotent, and developing a distaste for it to the extent > that one turns away from it and towards reality. I am also not saying > that such is "the way". I'm saying that such is a skillful means. I think what you're saying is something like 'using reasoning to get beyond reasoning'. To my understanding the consequence of that line of thinking or practice is to unwittingly reinforce the (wrong) idea of the efficacy of reasoning, and in this respect it is similar to the idea of 'using self to see no-self'. As far as I'm aware there is no such 'skilful means' mentioned in the texts. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by turning away from reasoning and towards reality. Moments of reasoning are already moments of reality, surely ;-)). With the development of direct awareness and understanding of dhammas, however, what we take for reasoning will be seen as just another form of thinking, and probably mostly akusala thinking at that. Developed panna will know what needs to be turned away from, I believe. Jon 40394 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (212) Dear Dhamma Friends, From the perspective of arising of vithi cittas or consciousness-in- procession objects are classified into 2 major groups; one for panca- dvara vithi cittas or 5-sense-door-processing-consciousness and another for mano-dvara vithi cittas or mind-sense-door-processing- consciousness. There are 4 different visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' for panca- dvara cittas. Visaya means 'object where citta enjoys and frequently visits. Pavatti means 'arising'. So visaya-pavatti means 'arising of object'. Four different type of these arising of object are 1. atimahanta-arammana or very clear object 2. mahanta-arammana or clear object 3. paritta-arammana or faint object 4. atiparitta-arammana or very faint object Actually rupas are not very clear or clear or faint or very faint. They just arise and last 17 moments of citta or 17 citta-kkhanas and there is no difference in terms of timing or life-span and clearity in real. But very clear, clear, faint and very faint are viewed from the perspective of receivers of object. This means that the cittas who fully apperceive are javana cittas. When javana cittas can arise for a given object then that object is said to be clear. When there are 2 extra cittas serving as retention consciousness or tadarammana cittas then the given object is viewed as very clear object. Object itself is the same. It is not very clear or clear but it just arises and lasts 17 citta-kkhanas. When rupas which can serve as arammanas or objects for attention of cittas arise they just last 17 citta-kkhanas. These 17 citta-kkhanas again comprise 51 anukhanas or 51 sub-moments. Among these 51 submoments of rupa the first sub-moment is so weak that rupa cannot still serve as an object for citta. It becomes powerful to serve as an object starts from 2nd sub-moment till 50th sub-moment. The 51st submoment becomes weak again because it is disappearing or aniccata of that given rupa. As soon as 1st sub-moment of rupa passes away the same 1st sub-moment of a citta passes away. While the rupa cannot still serve as an object there is no current object yet and the arisen citta is still bhavanga citta and it is called atita bhavanga citta or past life- continuing consciousness. In that atita bhavanga citta the last 2 sub- moments are warning shots for citta that rupa is ready and serving as an object. But atita bhavanga citta cannot take that current object. Next citta is bhavanga calana citta or vibrating bhavanga citta. 2 warning shots have been given. The third warning shot that 'I am here serving as an object' message hits next arising bhavanga citta [now bhavanga calana citta] and that citta becomes vibrated, shaken, invigorated, disturbed by those warning shots and so it becomes bhavanga calana citta. This citta is still bhavanga citta and cannot take the current object. Like a marathon man bhavanga cittas are running in uninterrupted succession like the flow of the water of a river. The man cannot dead- stop as soon as he receives warning shot to stop immediately. Instead he has to overshoot for a few steps. Like this 2 sub-moments warning shots hit atita bhavanga citta. But it did not vibrate but passed away and next citta has to vibrate. As warning shot has been received this citta is preparing to stop immediately but it could not and another citta has to arise. It is bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting bhavanga citta. This bhavanga citta is the last bhavanga citta which are pre-vithi citta when rupa which serves as an object exists and persisting as an object. All three bhavanga cittas cannot take the current object. But as soon as the last bhavanga citta passes away next arises the first vithi citta called panca-dvara-avajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness. This citta is the first to notice that there is an object. But it still cannot fully apperceive the object and it does not know what exactly that current object is. But it knows that there is an object and it immediately advert the object to next citta. Panca-dvara-avajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness is like a tower-watcher of an army camp. When the object 'a truck' in the high-way or motor-way of bhavanga cittas approaches the army compound the tower-watcher knows there is a truck [an object]. But he does not know what are inside of the truck. But as it knows it is a truck comes to the army he advert the information to 5-door-keepers or panca-vinnana cittas. If it is visual then to cakkhu and if auditory to sota, if aromatic to ghana, if gustatory to jivha, and if tangible to kayavinnana citta. Panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness does not fully know the object what it is like. But it just know and advert it to one of 5 sense gate keepers. Advert means 'turning the attention to'. This citta turns 'the attention' to panca-vinnana citta. As it is just adverting and nothing more than that this citta is just performing and it is a kiriya citta. Karana karana.m kiriyaaya kiriya. Just doing or performing is kiriya action or functional action or inoperative action. This citta is not a vipaka citta or resultant citta but a kiriya citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40395 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:57am Subject: The All & Nibbana Hi, all - The Sabba Sutta spells out all that there is as follows: ---------------------------------------- "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1 ] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." ---------------------------------------- I'm not so pleased with the use of the phrase 'intellect & ideas' in the foregoing translation. I believe that 'mind door & mind-door objects' would heve been better. (I don't know what the Pali is - perhaps 'mano'?) In any case, I know that Abhidhamma includes nibbana among the mind-door objects, and that is fine with me, though in a way, it seems to constrain the unconstrained or make conditioned the unconditioned. But there is another possible problem, it seems, with the idea of nibbana as mind-door object. Consider, if you will the following sutta: -------------------------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.24 Pahanaya Sutta To Be Abandoned Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned. "The ear is to be abandoned. Sounds are to be abandoned... "The nose is to be abandoned. Aromas are to be abandoned... "The tongue is to be abandoned. Flavors are to be abandoned... "The body is to be abandoned. Tactile sensations are to be abandoned... "The intellect is to be abandoned. Ideas are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the intellect is to be abandoned. Contact at the intellect is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned. "This is called the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned." --------------------------------- Now, if we are to be consistent, and understand 'intellect' simply be a poor alternative for 'mind', and 'ideas' a poor alternative for 'mind-door object', and if nibbana is to be considered a mind-door object, then this talks about abandoning nibbana, an idea that might be found objectionable, for why should the one true refuge be abandoned! A couple attempt at solutions present themselves to me, as follows: 1) To abandon nibbana means to not grasp onto it; to relinquish even that, because to fully realize nibbana, our relinquishing must be complete, without remnant. 2) To abandon may mean more than just to not grasp at; it may mean literally to leave in the dust, *but* the phrase "to be abandoned" is, and Jon will love this, descriptive, and not prescriptive. Nibbana, in its full and final realization, *will* be entirely abandoned, because in the very realizing of nibbana, all is abandoned. This "solution" is reminiscent of Nagarjuna's "emptiness of emptiness" - that even ultimate emptiness is empty. I, myself, prefer the first "solution", as I see it as simpler, less metaphysical, and quite adequate. Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40396 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:04am Subject: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - - To Howard Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Mike, Andrew L, Ken O and all How are you? And Happy New Year! Howard wrote: (For context, please see Howard's original post below.) "I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas." I think I was not able to clearly convey to you my message about the primacy of abhidhamma in Gotama's Taming System that is Theravada Buddhism. Or you missed the point I was making in my original post. You seemed to be thinking that abhidhamma was a later development. That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings. Traditional understanding of typecasting between Suttam and Abhidhamma is to do with the style of presentation, not with their contents. The contents of both Suttam Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka are the same dhammaa - the four ultiamte realities: mind, mental associates, matter and nibbaana. As Atthasaalinii put it, "Suttantañhi patvaa pañcakkhandhaa ekadeseneva vibhattaa, na nippadesena; abhidhammam patvaa pana suttantabhaajaniiya abhidhammabhaajaniiya pañhapucchakanayaanam vasena nippadesato vibhattaa." Nidaanakathaa, Atthasaalinii. "When getting to Suttanta, the five aggregates are analysed only partially, not fully. When getting to Abhidhamma, though, they are analysed exhaustively by means of Suttanta analysis, Abhidhamma analysis and Questioning methods." ... (Continue with other groupings of dhammaa such as Venues (Aayatana), Elements (Dhaatu), Truths (Saccaa) and so on...) Page 2, Introduction, Atthasaalinii. And, I have been proposing to regard the four ultimate realities as units of abhidhamma wherever they are found textually - be they in Suttanta Pitaka, or Vinaya Pitaka, or Abhidhamma Pitaka. In short, I have been declaring the reality units, their conditions and relations as abhidhammaa. Now, Howard, how do you feel about such a proposal and such a declaration. Happy New Year To All! With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Suan - In a message dated 12/28/04 10:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > To my knowledge, the most essential teachings of the Buddha found in > Suttam Pitaka deal with reality units and different approaches to > their manipulation. Thus, any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma > in disguise. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas. ------------------------------------- > > Now, Howard, the origin of Abhidhamma Pitaka is Gotama the Buddha as > the Three Pitakas are coherent system of teachings involving the > reality units, their conditions and relations in various ways of > presentation for the sole purpose of taming and transforming our > minds for eventual awakening. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree that Abhidhamma was created with the teachings of the Buddha as basis. If that is what you mean, then I agree. ========================= With metta, and saddha in the Tiratana, Howard 40397 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (213) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness passes away next arises panca-vinnana citta. This is citta is a vipaka citta or resultant consciousness. Unlike other 87 cittas, 2 cittas of cakkhuvinnana cittas knows 'seeing-object'. Seeing is the function of these 2 vinnana cittas. So do other 4 pairs namely 2 dvi-sota-vinnana cittas for hearing, 2 dvi-ghana-vinnana cittas for smelling, 2 dvi-jivha-vinnana cittas for tasting and 2 dvi- kaya-vinnana cittas for touching. While other 79 cittas do their jobs, these 10 cittas known as dvi- panca-vinnana cittas do their job each. Their jobs are dassana or seeing function or job for cakkhu-vinnana cittas, savana or hearing function or job for sota-vinnana cittas, ghayana or smelling function or job for ghana-vinnana cittas, sayana or tasting function or job for jivha-vinnana cittas, and phusana or touching function or job for kaya-vinnana cittas. They each know their respective senses. But they just know the senses ans they do not fully apperceive the object what it is like in its fullest essence. Again panca-vinnana citta or 5- sense-consciousness has to pass away. Next arises sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness. These 2 cittas one for akusala vipaka and another for kusala vipaka just receive the information from panca-vinnana citta. Panca-vinnana citta or 5-sense-consciousness or 5-gate-keeper opens the gate and the truck [object] comes in the army compound. After the gate-keeper knows what is inside of the truck he refers the truck to receiving centre called sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness. Again the receiver consciousness just receives the object and he transfers the truck to investigating centre. Receiving consciousness or sampaticchana citta is just to know that he receives the object what panca-vinnana knows and immediately transfers it to the investigator. So it unlike other citta just knows the object and as it is just receiving that citta is called mano-dhatu while all other following cittas are named as mano-vinnana-dhatus. It passes away and next arises santirana citta or investigating consciousness. The investigating centre investigate what are inside of the truck. They know to some extent that something is inside of the truck and it is food. But they cannot decide on what to do with this food and the investigating centre transfers the truck to the commender who is votthapana citta or determining consciousness. There are 3 santirana cittas and all are vipaka cittas. 1 akusala vipaka and 2 are kusala vipaka cittas. Again kusala vipaka santirana cittas are one upekkha and another somanassa santirana citta. Unlike panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness who just adverts and sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness who just receives, these 3 santirana cittas know the truck contents or about the object more than former 3 cittas [1 panca- dvara-avajjana-citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas]. So santirana cittas are known as mano-vinnana-dhatus while former 3 cittas are just mano- dhatus. Panca-vinnana cittas sampaticchana cittas and santirana cittas are all vipaka cittas. Now the commender decides that the food inside of the truck has to be shared among all soldiers and army officers and make them eat. This commender is votthapana citta or determining consciousness and it decides or determines how to fully feel or fully apperceive the object. But it just decides and it itself does not fully apperceive the object at that moment. So there is still no commitment yet. This citta votthappana citta is manodvara-avajjana-citta and it is a kiriya citta and it does not create any kamma or it does not grow any seeds yet. It passes away and next arise the 1st javana citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40398 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (211) Hi, Htoo - As I understand the following, the sort of "clarity" being dealt with pertains not to individual cittas or their arammanas, but to sequences/processes of cittas, and is a matter of how many in a process have the same "current object" as object. Am I correct in my understanding. If I am correct or at least close to correct, then it seems to me that this notion of "clarity", as opposed, perhaps, to the clarity of clear comprehension, is a conventional property of a conventional reality, because a sequence of cittas is not a dhamma, and a characteristic of a sequence of cittas based on the "total number of vithi cittas or consciousness in procession in a given object" is also not a dhamma nor a characteristic of a dhamma. Is that not so? With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/31/04 6:21:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Depending on the number of arising of vithi cittas or 'consciousness > in procession' there are four different types of object recognized. > > They are > > 1. atimahanta-arammana or 'very clear object' > 2. mahanta-arammana or 'clear object' > 3. paritta-arammana or 'faint object' > 4. atiparitta-arammana or 'very faint object' > > I think, this is my own opinion, that there is no clear object or > faint object from perspective of rupa side. All rupa of panca- > arammanas are the same in terms of their life span that is 17 citta- > kkhanas. The classification of very clear, clear, faint, and very > faint are from the view point of viewers or perceivers. > > This means that any object is fully apperceived after the end of 7th > javana cittas. When javana cittas can arise the given object is > called clear object or mahanta-arammana and when there are 2 > tadarammana cittas along with 7 javana cittas that object is named > very clear object or atimahanta-arammana. So this is from the view > point of possibility of arising of javana cittas who are full > apperceivers. > > Objects are the same whether javana cittas arise or not. They all > will just last 17 citta-kkhanas. In faint object or paritta-arammana > there is no javana cittas at all. There are some vithi cittas but > they end up with votthapana cittas who are still unable to determine > how to apperceive. > > The object is the same at any given time that is they will last 17 > citta-kkhanas. Rupa does not need to be clear or be faint. But as > javana cittas cannot arise here it is called faint object from view > point of perceivers cittas. Votthapana cittas which is > manodvaravajjana citta cannot apperceive fully and it does not > realize the object. > > The last object called 'very faint object' or 'atiparitta-arammana' > does not have any vithi cittas. All 17 cittas during the existence of > rupa arebhavanga cittas. But there does have vibration or > tremulousness or shakiness because of arising of rupa. This object is > also counted in visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object'. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40399 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/31/04 9:22:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Also, I'm not sure what you mean by turning away from reasoning and > towards reality. Moments of reasoning are already moments of reality, > surely ;-)). > > =================== You are mixing levels of speech here, Jon. Of course moments of reasoning are moments of reality. Whatever arises, arises. My point is that reasoning is a poor substitute for pa~n~na. It is not a direct knowing of reality. It is at best a not overly deceptive, indirect pointing to reality, but at worst it is a seriously deceptive and defective charlatan, led by and embodying all our defilements, and posing as a shedder of light. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)