41200 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta and abhidhamma Hello Philip, I just wrote to you that we are missing you (maybe your screen was just then still black), and there you are. Thanks for your input again. Just as Joop, I like this: rise and fall away in a very momentary way long before we have begun > to develop insight that will bring us proof through direct experience > of this rising and falling, for example. > The intellectual understanding also helps a lot, indeed. Nina 41201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi Howard and Jon, op 22-01-2005 18:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ³Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into >> homelessness, service to one¹s parents.² >> Jon: I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular >> forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything >> in particular. >> > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > My point with regard to this sutta was the use of 'prescribed'. What > is prescribed or recommended to be done is not just *described* as being > useful. N: I quickly looked at the Thai Co. It seems to suggest three things that are beneficial. It is not like: 'You *must* do this.' When I have time I continue with the suttas. Howard, I liked your reaction to the suttas you sent to me. As to the words energy and effort, viriya, I like to add: courage and perseverance, these are implied by viriya. The latter words are more inspiring to me than only effort. But that is personal, it maybe because of previous readings. I had a discussion with Lodewijk about this subject of prescription or description several people used to debate about. He is inclined to see the Buddha's words as an advice. This can be more or less strong. I am not inclined to think in terms of prescription //description. Lodewijk and I discussed that even the five precepts are not prescribed: we have to train ourselves... Not: thou shall not... Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed themselves to the rules of discipline. Lodewijk sees this as a tremendous task. That was why he was so impressed while addressing 120 monks in Sarnath. When he looked at all those serious monks sitting there he was deeply touched and had even difficulty in talking, realizing their task. When reading suttas we have to see whether monks alone are addressed. I know many times it is also for laypeople, but at times it only concerns the monks who have the duty to become arahats. Like the sutta on sitting until the bones dry up. Nina. 41202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta and abhidhamma Dear Joop, I am glad you are interested at Abh. Sangaha. op 22-01-2005 16:34 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > My problem is not that the Abhidhamma is dry (I liked to study dry > stuff like mathematics). My problem is that the Dhamma is frozen, > made a system in which nothing is skipped, that there is not a drip > of anarchy in it. And that it's a body of knowledge that can not > change (any more). N: If we do not see the Abhidhamma as a body of knowledge we will not find it rigid. It is the link to daily life we should never lose. We investigate for ourselves cittas, mental factors, bodily phenomena. Then Abhidhamma is quite a different matter. Thank you for the article which I shall read when I have time. Harvey Aronson shall also send me a book Buddhist Practice on Western Ground. Howard gave me his address. So that is again the same subject as you. Nina. 41203 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/22/05 3:35:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Jon and Howard, > I find especially important what Jon writes: the relating of what has been > heard and properly > understood to the present moment. ==================== I agree that what you quoted of Jon's is very good. (I add it at the end of this post). Hearing the Dhamma is incredibly important. We, in fact, should make great effort to do so! (Note: A deliberate activity.) I also believe that other deliberate activity, as *prescribed* by the Buddha, is of enormous importance. With metta, Howard _____________________ Jon's words: > The necessary conditions for insight development as explained in the > texts are: hearing the teachings about insight knowledge presented > in a way that is appropriate for our particular level of > understanding and accumulated wrong views; reflecting on what has > been heard; and the relating of what has been heard and properly > understood to the present moment. I believe that if these conditins > have been met then awareness can arise and insight can be developed, > without the need for anything further in the way of > conscious/deliberate `practice' on the part of the individual. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41204 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi, Nina (and Jon) - I do get your point. By 'prescribe' I meant "recommend. So, when a physician - and the Buddha has been called The Great Physician - prescribes medition it is usually more of a recommendation han a command. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/22/05 3:36:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, vango rko@x... writes: > Hi Howard and Jon, > op 22-01-2005 18:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >³Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into > >>homelessness, service to one¹s parents.² > >> > Jon: I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular > >>forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything > >>in particular. > >> > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >My point with regard to this sutta was the use of 'prescribed'. What > >is prescribed or recommended to be done is not just *described* as being > >useful. > N: I quickly looked at the Thai Co. It seems to suggest three things that > are beneficial. It is not like: 'You *must* do this.' When I have time I > continue with the suttas. > Howard, I liked your reaction to the suttas you sent to me. As to the words > energy and effort, viriya, I like to add: courage and perseverance, these > are implied by viriya. The latter words are more inspiring to me than only > effort. But that is personal, it maybe because of previous readings. > I had a discussion with Lodewijk about this subject of prescription or > description several people used to debate about. He is inclined to see the > Buddha's words as an advice. This can be more or less strong. I am not > inclined to think in terms of prescription //description. Lodewijk and I > discussed that even the five precepts are not prescribed: we have to train > ourselves... Not: thou shall not... > Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed themselves to > the rules of discipline. Lodewijk sees this as a tremendous task. That was > why he was so impressed while addressing 120 monks in Sarnath. When he > looked at all those serious monks sitting there he was deeply touched and > had even difficulty in talking, realizing their task. > When reading suttas we have to see whether monks alone are addressed. I know > many times it is also for laypeople, but at times it only concerns the monks > who have the duty to become arahats. Like the sutta on sitting until the > bones dry up. > Nina. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41205 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > To Ken H I will say: is it correct to say "I THANK PAST CONDITIONS > (for allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma)" ? I don't think so, > for me that expression is too much like "Thank God". And the > expression "Thank God" is many times used on a hypocritical way. > Hi Joop (Ken O and James), It was coincidental that Ken O wrote about thanking conditions: just a day earlier, I had been thinking in the same way. A young driver had cut in front of me in a particularly discourteous, inconsiderate manner. Judging from the way he was casually chatting with his passenger, I guessed that, to them, it was normal behaviour. I thanked the conditions that made my behaviour more acceptable. It was an incident of road-calm (as opposed to road-rage). :-) I was thinking in Abhidhamma terms: Since the present moment was purely nama and rupa, the causes of the present moment were purely nama and rupa. So it seemed inappropriate to thank concepts (parents, teachers and my own past actions). When I wrote the message you are referring to, my motives were more dubious. Perhaps your word, "hypocritical," would apply. I had been stirred up by James' reference to pretentious showing off amongst DSG's Pali users. My attachment to the people concerned gave way to dosa (as lobha invariably does). I tried to give my message a positive slant, but it might have been better not sent at all. :-) Ken H 41206 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:23am Subject: Typo Corrections Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi again, Nina (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/22/05 3:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Nina (and Jon) - > > I do get your point. By 'prescribe' I meant "recommend. So, when a > physician - and the Buddha has been called The Great Physician - prescribes > medition it is usually more of a recommendation han a command. > > With metta, > Howard > =========================== The contents of the foregoing were intended to be as follows: ____________________ I do get your point. By 'prescribe' I meant "recommend". So, when a physician - and the Buddha has been called The Great Physician - prescribes medication it is usually more of a recommendation than a command. ----------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41207 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta and abhidhamma Hi Nina > I just wrote to you that we are missing you (maybe your screen was just then > still black), and there you are. Thanks! I was missing you all as well, but it was also nice to be reminded (have it confirmed) that I could feel enthusiastic and confident about Dhamma without having anyone to discuss it with - for awhile at least. I sometimes suspected that in a sense Dhamma (in particular Abhidhamma) was just a strategy for me to belong to a group and make friends but I've learned that this is not the case. And the computer is working this morning as well. Very mysterious but I'll enjoy it while I can. I'm looking forward to reading your series on the India pilgrimage. All my best to Lodewijk and your father and the music-loving dog. Metta, Phil 41208 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India, 1 b Hello Nina, and all > Acharn Sujin emphasized that we should not merely think of the words of the > texts, but that we should have firm understanding of the characteristics of > realities that appear. But not too "firm", I guess, because that is surely beyond us now. Glimpses of understanding that come and go like glimpses of the moon through racing clouds. It certainly is easy to get caught up in words, words, words and forget about the realities. I like the way sati is sometimes defined as non-forgetfullness. > We should not dwell on the past that has gone already, nor think of the > future that has not come yet. I have found it helpful these days to be able to see these thoughts of past and future as lures that are dangled before my mind by Mara, as taught in that sutta about the fisherman. Again and again I find myself gently saying "don't take the lure" and dropping it. Basic stuff, but so helpful. We're moving in February, to a very nice area of Tokyo, and to an apartment with much better light. So easy to fall into anticipations of how much "better" things will be there, how I'll be able to be much more productive etc but I find myself using the above teaching to drop such foolish anticipations. > There can be awareness and understanding of > the dhammas appearing at this moment. *Can* be. I keep thinking of the image of the black curtain that K Sujin uses in the audio clip in the files. There has been so much ignorace accumulated over many lifetimes. We can be very grateful for the rare moments when the clouds part and we catch a glimpse of the moon. Metta, Phil 41209 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi All, > N: energy and effort, viriya, I like to add: courage and perseverance, these > are implied by viriya. The latter words are more inspiring to me than only > effort. But that is personal, it maybe because of previous Kel: Continuous effort is how the meaning is conveyed in Burmese too. I think courage and perseverance are essential parts of viriya when applied correctly. > N : Lodewijk and I > discussed that even the five precepts are not prescribed: we have to train > ourselves... Not: thou shall not... Kel: In some sense I don't see a difference. Even if they're commands, people can still obey or not since Buddha is not there to judge them. Sila to me is very simple, good actions that leads to no regrets, fears or anxieties. Bad actions cause tension and disturbance in the mind so it becomes dull. Regardless it's up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions whether past or present. > Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed Kel: I don't think it's so different if we are able to guard all three actions. We can be committed to dhamma while fulfilling our worldly duties. > When reading suttas we have to see whether monks alone are addressed. I know > many times it is also for laypeople, but at times it only concerns the monks > who have the duty to become arahats. Like the sutta on sitting until the > bones dry up. Kel: Maybe it's a difference in background but I for one take the whole teaching as for me. Buddha laid out what one should do and how one should practice. Whether or not one's capable of following everything is a separate issue. Everyone's goal should be to become an arahat asap. I think Joop's point of trusting and basing on one's own experience and understanding is right on. No matter how good a teacher we have, they cannot directly show us the way. So I don't see how we have a choice but to use our body and mind as it is the only reference. One of the thing I find is you learn to know "yourself" very well. How we react in certain situations or to certain stimulus. How the association of certain thing, action or person causes an intense reaction. Then as that association's strength lessens, the reaction naturally decreases. You can precisely take a position of a scientist and through repetitive experiments see the law of nature for what it is. When I saw the defiled nature of the mind, I was disgusted and ashamed. It would not be something I can proudly show to others and definitely don't want to call it "mine". But after the retreat was over, I can see the mind is back to it's old ways. Being proud of who I am and what I know etc. There's no ending to suffering it seems. As right now, the negative tendencies in my mind are still too strong. I look forward to another long retreat when positive tendencies might win the battle once again. Buddha taught us to fulfill our duties to family first. Once I have done that, I can finally go to a quiet and secluded place and practice with my upmost ability. The results I cannot control but I can for sure work on renunciation and determination. Ultimately what is so precious about this body that I can't sit until the bones dry up? The fact I can't do it now just tells me those particular paramis are weak in me. - kel 41210 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:19pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Ken H, Ken: I had been stirred up by James' reference to pretentious showing off amongst DSG's Pali users. My attachment to the people concerned gave way to dosa (as lobha invariably does). James: Hmmm…you were able to remain calm when cut off on the highway- an action that could have killed you- and yet you couldn't remain calm by a remark I made in a post? Odd. Really, you shouldn't pay me that much heed. Someone made an off-hand remark about `those who think they are jhana masters and sotapannas' and I knew it was directed at me (can't remember who wrote it and don't want to search now). And you know what I did? I smiled and ignored it. Who cares what people think about me? You shouldn't care what I think about others either. Metta, James Ps. BTW, I don't think that everyone here who uses Pali does so in a pretentious manner, only a few, and only sometimes. For example, Sarah and Nina use a lot of Pali and I don't find it pretentious… however, they still don't use Pali at the skill level of Kel. 41211 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:27pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard > said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, including > Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from "deliberate > cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. > Hi Tep and Howard, The Buddha warned us that his Dhamma was extremely profound and that it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. And we need to know that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and totally inadequate for vipassana. How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. --------------- > "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. > --------------- Tep, do you agree with Howard? I think he is sidestepping the question of anatta. In what way or ways can we choose to influence future experiences? Where is the being that chooses? Aren't there just conditioned dhammas? ---------------------- > "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. > ----------------------- Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? ------------------------ > If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? > ------------------------- Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the arising of panna. --------------------------------- > Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people? > ---------------------------------- Dhamma practice, satipatthana, is on a different level of reality from "torturing people." One is a paramattha dhamma and the other is a concept. Did anyone other than the Buddha suspect Angulimala had the potential to become an arahant? No, because his appearance was the antithesis of an ariyan. But concepts have no influence over dhammas. In the same way, adopting the appearance of an ariyan, sitting cross- legged, smiling and intending to have wholesome consciousness are concepts with no influence over satipatthana, or samatha, or any other dhamma. ----------------------- > Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? > ----------------------- If I understand the question correctly, I suppose the answer is, "No, there is no ultimate difference." Furthermore, I suspect the first category - those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching - could include people who advocate wrong view. That is, the view that enlightenment is attained through "striving" in the conventional sense of the word (as in the Ogha Sutta). But people who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" do not necessarily believe that "standing still " (doing nothing), is the way. We can be conscientious worldling Dhamma students without subscribing to either of the wrong views. --------------------- > If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? > --------------------- There is no Dhamma practice until the paramattha dhamma "panna" arises to take another paramattha dhamma as its object. There is no control over the arising of panna, but we have been taught the factors that condition it (see, e.g., Jon's recent, much-quoted, post). Ken H 41212 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:00am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 105 - Concentration/ekaggataa (a) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå, concentration or one-pointedness, is another cetasika among the seven 'universals' which arises with every citta: with kusala citta, akusala citta, vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta. It arises with all cittas of all planes of consciousness, but, as we will see, its quality is different as it arises with different cittas. The characteristic of citta is cognizing an object and thus, every citta which arises must have an object. There is no citta without an object and each citta can know only one object at a time. Ekaggatå is the cetasika which has as function to focus on that one object. Seeing-consciousness, for example, can only know visible object, it cannot know any other object and ekaggatå focuses on visible object. Hearing-consciousness can only know sound, it cannot know visible object or any other object and ekaggatå focuses on sound. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41213 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi all, Kel: Time to interject into this anatta argument again I guess. > it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms > with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. Kel: Sounds like too much self-deprecation to me. Conceit is even present in anagamis so it is a great danger. At the same time, you need confidence and strength to walk the path. > Ken H: that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and > totally inadequate for vipassana. Kel: Yet at the same time, these convential things and knowledge are the objects to utilize in our path to panna. Observing and analyzing superficial things to penetrate the aberrant truth they represent. > Ken H: How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? > It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer > (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. Kel: There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow backwards so can only alter the future course. > > "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not > possible he would not say it is. > > ----------------------- > > Ken H: Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does > cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise instead. Similarly with kusala vipaka cittas, they can cause kusala javana cittas to keep arising instead of lobha. It's realizing what cannot be changed (past) and what can be changed (present), amoha. It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. This is more technial argument for the same thing Howard said. > Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the > Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the > arising of panna. Kel: Buddha exhausted him physically while letting his mind to calm down to receive dhamma. Purely speaking of vithis, akusala javana and kusala javana cannot arise in the same vithi. So by definition the akusala cetana or whatever it was, already had no control before panna arose. Like the story of a woman who was so grief-stricken with the death of her son, she cannot receive dhamma even with enough capacity to. So Buddha sent her off to find a household with no deaths in the family and to bring back an item which can be use to resurrect her son. She went around the whole city and found no such households. The journey calmed her mind and reduced intensity of the grief so she's no longer blinded by it. Then when she came back with a convential understanding that no one is free from death of a loved one, she can finally understand Buddha's words to become an ariya. On the other hand, story of a married coupled can be recounted. They were both born into rich families so grew up spoiled with no understanding of how to run their family business. The parents felt that their wealth was so great, the kids didn't need the worry about trivial things. When they were old enough, they were married. As luck would have it, both sets of parents died leaving just the married couple. The husband made friends who wanted to leech off him and took him to places of sensuous pleasures. He would send servants home to get money from his wife who also didn't know better so kept on giving. As time went by he went through the whole fortune which was thought to be inexhaustible. Anyway, they ended up beggers at one of Buddha's monastery. When Buddha saw them and smiled, Ashin Ananda asked why. Buddha says look at those two, if they had come into my Dhamma during first stage of their lives, they would be arahats. If they had come in the second stage, they would be anagamis. If they had come in the third stage, they would be sakagamis or sotapannas. But now their minds are so dull since it was never developed in this life that they cannot receive dhamma. So even for such people with enough paramis and conditions to become arahats in this very life, without a proper use of opportunity to learn dhamma even during a living Buddha's time can be wasted. - kel ps. sorry, turned out to be a bit verbose post. 41214 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep and Howard My inital reaction is that difficult is the path, difficult to understand that the believe that a deliberate action is also a subtle clinging. Because this concept of one deliberate action is always portray in the the sutta says that monks, do this or do that. Unless one sees the flood as a stream of conditions, there is no liberation. When one halt, one is attached, when one struggled one is also attached, only when one dont halt and dont struggled, noticing the flood with the three characteristics, then one is on the path. > Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from > "deliberate cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. k: Citta is the king, the forerunner. It does not mean it can be deliberately control of it. If it is possible to control citta, then we would be always happy, we will not grow old or sad, in sum we will not have affliction. There is no stopping in this stream of citta, even if one think we can stop it, there is delusion because Buddha has said it clearly in the dependent origination, when this arise, that arise. It is stream of continuous citta, it is a stream as long as kamma permits it. > > > "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular > sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, > influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. > "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. k: Definitely it is possible only with the arisen of the knowledge of anatta. This sound very ironic, on one hand, citta comes and goes without any self involved yet on the other hand there is always this believe one can control the flow. In fact the penetrative knowledge of conditions in the three characteristics acutally helps solve the problem of cyclic rebirth. > "What is it that determines in a person whether or not s/he "just > knows them as they arise"? What is it that results in pa~n~na being > operative. If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people. Is there no difference in > "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? k: There is world of difference between knowing them arise with knowledge of them of three characterisitcs and one who observe them as a third party like a socialogists. I remember I read this sutta about even when armed robbers saw you limb by limb, one should not be angry? Why, because, how would one be angry if there is no one to be found in the first instance. If physical pain does not belong to be mine, where is there one to be angry. Physical pain is just another condition, so without halting to the craving of I, where is there fire to support the growth of anger. Without the support the three latency of the three roots, there is no more I around for it burn for endless samasara. If there is no lantency of I around to feed the three roots, it is impossible for one to commit any akusala behaviour. It is only when our latency is dormant and feeding the three roots, one commit akusala. Hence to me, when the one see conditions with the three characteristics, akusala will eventually stop on its own as there is no more wood for the fire to burn. Since these people as describe by you are still does not known the three characteristics, the fire still burning in them, so naturally these type of situation arise. Ken O 41215 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep Attaining jhanas is not right concentration, because Buddha also attain jhanas before he is buddha after learning from his two teacher. When Buddha say right concentration, it must have been conditioned by panna. If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been enlighted earlier. His two teachers would have been Arahants. That is why to me one must see the commentary after seeing the sutta or the likelihood of erring is very high. Ken O 41216 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/23/05 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > >Hi, all - > > > >In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard > >said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, > including > >Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > >actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > >practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > >do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes > from "deliberate > >cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. > > > > > Hi Tep and Howard, > > The Buddha warned us that his Dhamma was extremely profound and that > it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms > with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. And we need to know > that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and > totally inadequate for vipassana. > > How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? > It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer > (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. > --------------------------------------- Howard: How can there be eating when there is no being who can eat? How could there have been the Dhamma taught when there was no Buddha to teach it, no beings to have been taught, and no thing that is the Dhamma? Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut-abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the reality, and they are not confused. Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is acting". There IS acting. There IS willing. Moreover, all true conventional statements that are made are, indeed, TRUE. They have to be properly understood, not taken at literal face value, but *not* just dismissed as false. ---------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > >"Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular > sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, > but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, > influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. > > --------------- > > Tep, do you agree with Howard? I think he is sidestepping the > question of anatta. In what way or ways can we choose to influence > future experiences? Where is the being that chooses? Aren't there > just conditioned dhammas? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed, just conditioned dhammas - and even they are wrongly understood as little self-existent actors! No being is required. But to speak of beings and other "things", which the Buddha did all the time, is useful speech. An arahant, were s/he to decide to directly communicate only reality, would abandon the attempt at communcating entirely, and simply remain silent. There is no communication that conveys only reality to worldlings and lesser ariyans. ------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------- > >"There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not > possible he would not say it is. > > ----------------------- > > Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does > cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? > > ------------------------ > > >If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed > robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? > > ------------------------- > > Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the > Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the > arising of panna. > > --------------------------------- > >Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib > prison engaged in practice while torturing people? > > ---------------------------------- > > Dhamma practice, satipatthana, is on a different level of reality > from "torturing people." One is a paramattha dhamma and the other is > a concept. Did anyone other than the Buddha suspect Angulimala had > the potential to become an arahant? No, because his appearance was > the antithesis of an ariyan. But concepts have no influence over > dhammas. > > In the same way, adopting the appearance of an ariyan, sitting cross- > legged, smiling and intending to have wholesome consciousness are > concepts with no influence over satipatthana, or samatha, or any > other dhamma. > ------------------------------------ Howard: But what DOES have influence? (And if cetana has no consequences, what does it "do for a living"?? ;-) The answer to what has influence usually given here is "hearing the Dhamma" or "hearing and contemplating the Dhamma". But this is conventional speech, Ken. Yes, that conventional action is one of many conventional actions that a conventional person can conventioally decide to conventionally carry out. In *actuality* there is no being who can hear or contemplate the Dhamma, and in actuality there is no reality called "the Dhamma". So, Ken, don't even try to hear, read, discuss, or contemplate the Dhamma, because there is no Ken to do it, and there is no reading, there is no discussing, and there is no Dhamma! N'est ce pas? ------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------- > >Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to > follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? > > ----------------------- > > If I understand the question correctly, I suppose the answer > is, "No, there is no ultimate difference." > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh. I think I'll just go out and have a drink, a bit of illicit sex, and a stupifyingly satisfying meal. Oh, and if anger should arise and I should physically attack someone, well, hey, conditions will arise as they arise, with no "me" to do anything about that. And all the while, this is practicing!! (I recall that there was a sect at the time of the Buddha that took the position that to run someone through with a sword is no problem, because the body doesn't truly exist. The Buddha, of course, dismissed this!) Ken, I find your position to lend itself quite easily to an extreme of Buddhist antinomianism. ------------------------------------ > > Furthermore, I suspect the first category - those who attempt to > follow the Buddha's teaching - could include people who advocate > wrong view. That is, the view that enlightenment is attained > through "striving" in the conventional sense of the word (as in the > Ogha Sutta). > > But people who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" do not > necessarily believe that "standing still " (doing nothing), is the > way. We can be conscientious worldling Dhamma students without > subscribing to either of the wrong views. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense. There is no "we" to do anything! ---------------------------------- > > --------------------- > >If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, > whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? > > --------------------- > > There is no Dhamma practice until the paramattha dhamma "panna" > arises to take another paramattha dhamma as its object. There is no > control over the arising of panna, but we have been taught the > factors that condition it (see, e.g., Jon's recent, much-quoted, > post). -------------------------------------- Howard: So Dhamma practice begins only when pa~n~na arises, but pa~n~na arises independently of conventional actions. This means that whether or not Dhamma practice begins is, conventionally speaking, completely random! Mmm, good. That sure gets "me" off the hook. It is EASY to be a Buddhist. There is no need to do anything any differently from anyone else. Que sera, sera. Whatever will be, will be. Time for a snooze! Or some booze! ------------------------------------ > > Ken H > ------------------------------------- Howard: Who? What? No Ken, no Howard, no discussion. ZZZZZZZZZ (snoozing) =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41217 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Ken O, Ken O: Attaining jhanas is not right concentration James: Jhanas are Right Concentration. See this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Ken O: because Buddha also attain jhanas before he is buddha after learning from his two teacher. James: The Buddha had learned the immaterial attainments from his previous teachers, not the jhanas. Ken O: If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been enlighted earlier. James: The only time the Buddha had practiced the jhanas is when he was a child and he spontaneously entered the first jhana, after that he never practiced them again. Actually, he had been afraid to practice them because they produced pleasurable sensations and he had forsaken pleasure in all forms: "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities…" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn036.html Metta, James 41218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali users Hi James and Ken, This post today really gave me a good laugh :-)) I knew whom James remark was directed to :-)) But I do not laugh all the time. I just continue with my Pali because I committed myself to Larry's project although it takes time and it is difficult. Nobody knows how often I am sighing over the Pali. But inspite of this, I find it useful and I learn a lot from it. For every student of Pali it is the easiest thing in the world to know that one is not an expert. I think with whatever we do, and this does not only concern Pali, conceit is bound to arise so long as we are not arahats. We may think: I know this, the others do not know this, and it can happen with any post we write. But we do not stop writing because of this. It is good to realize conceit and how often it arises. He and me, and there is already conceit. The test of one's understanding is daily life. Nina. op 23-01-2005 00:19 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Ken: I had been stirred up by James' reference to pretentious > showing off amongst DSG's Pali users. J: Who cares what people think about me? 41219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. Hi Kel, (and Htoo at end) op 23-01-2005 00:13 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: quote: Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed > Kel: I don't think it's so different if we are able to guard all > three actions. We can be committed to dhamma while fulfilling our > worldly duties. N: There is an immense difference between the monk and the lay person. Kh Sujin said that it is like heaven and earth. The Co. states that becoming a monk is like a new birth. The rules are directed towards arahatship, and if the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct of a monk who is non-arahat and arahat. It is progress to see one's faults. It is helpful to realize that akusala cittas are conditioned. I quote something from Pilgrimage India: I have a small matter that only concerns terms or names. You spoke about phala samaapatti. This is not the same as the arising of the phalacittas succeeding the magga-cittas when enlightenment is attained. Those are only two or three moments. Phala samaapatti can only be attained by ariyans who developed both jhana and vipassana and have masteries of jhanas, as Htoo explained. For them phalacittas can arise again many times during their life. This is abiding in bliss here, now. I quote again from the Dhamma Issues in Thai: Htoo explained these three. Htoo, as I understood, you called nirodha samaapatti upadisesa nibbana, but I understood that the nirodha samaapatti is not lokuttara citta. I thought that only the arahat's lokuttara citta is nibbana with the substratum of life remaining, and that the moment of his passing away is anupadisesa nibbana. I felt somewhat at a loss. Nina. 41220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: deliberate, intention, etc. Hi Howard, I have no trouble with your words deliberate or effort, or intention. You very, very often (you said before: ad nauseam) explained that you realize that these are all qualities that are conditioned, not belonging to a self. Lodewijk suggested the word encouragement in the context of recommendation. Prescribed, you added, recommended. It is of no use to fall over words. For me, I am not inclined to debates about them. I found it liberating for myself to hear from Kh Sujin that we do not have to force ourselves to certain difficult practices, but can develop understanding naturally in daily life. To me this makes a lot of sense. Daily life is the test for our understanding she said. But what is forced for one person is not forced for someone else. Let everyone decide for himself. I do something similar to what you do and some people may think this forced: my alarm goes at 5.30 on weekdays. I am getting old and time flies more and more quickly. If I do not get up early, with a certain discipline, I would have no time for listening to Dhamma, just could not fit it in. Yes, a certain discipline. As you said before, human nature is weak, and we easily get into the habit of sleeping long, of sluggishness. Still, I do not feel forced with a certain amount of discipline, otherwise nothing gets done. I like the Buddha's texts to the monks on sluggishness, being attached to sleep. I see those as a recommendation, encouragement, whatever you call it, I do not fall over words. I am glad you see the importance of listening, there are so many texts in the suttas about this. Nina. op 22-01-2005 21:44 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I agree that what you quoted of Jon's is very good. (I add it at the > end of this post). Hearing the Dhamma is incredibly important. We, in fact, > should make great effort to do so! (Note: A deliberate activity.) I also > believe > that other deliberate activity, as *prescribed* by the Buddha, is of enormous > importance. 41221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:17am Subject: Re:Joop's article on Western Buddhism Dear Joop, Your article is well written, not too long. Some points are good for discussion here, like: engaged Buddhism, this is a point Chris brought up in India. So, it is international. I think it is a reaction to the idea that Buddhists should not be engaged, but the Dhamma is also the application of metta and karuna. Kh sujin had doubts about it that another kind of Buddhism, engaged Buddhism is necessary. You can hear this on the sound tract Jon gave. I think that if we understand that the essence of the Dhamma is developing wisdom to know yourself, to know seeing, hearing, attachment etc. there is no need for Western Buddhism. Everyone can apply the Dhamma in his own situation and culture. No need to throw away one's culture. Seeing is universal, hearing is universal. The texts deal with these realities. But do bring your points in English here, suitable for discussion. Nina. 41222 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/23/05 7:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Tep > > Attaining jhanas is not right concentration, because Buddha also > attain jhanas before he is buddha after learning from his two > teacher. When Buddha say right concentration, it must have been > conditioned by panna. If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would > have been enlighted earlier. His two teachers would have been > Arahants. That is why to me one must see the commentary after seeing > the sutta or the likelihood of erring is very high. > > > Ken O > =========================== There is the following: ______________________ > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- > enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed > thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & > pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in > equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & > pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he > enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." > >> -- SN XLV.8 > ----------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41223 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > As preamble, I think I'll just say that we certainly disagree on this >one, and there seems little prospect of a rapprochement in sight! ;-)) I'll >add just a couple brief comments below. > > In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by ‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) > Howard: > > That's correct. This sutta [No. 1] does not discuss method. But it >*does*instruct the hearer to abandon evil, and states that it is possible to do so. > > I think ‘recommend’ (rather than 'instruct') would aptly describe the import of the Buddha’s words in this sutta, too. Is that how you would see it? We should also bear in mind that the suttas were audience- and occasion-specific to a degree, and what was taught on a given occasion was the appropriate 'medicine' for that audience on that occasion. >Howard: > But you ignore the opening phrase: "Thus should one train oneself". I >take that to mean exactly what it says. > > But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for), which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being recommended here? Jon 41224 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pali users Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James and Ken, > This post today really gave me a good laugh :-)) I knew whom James remark > was directed to :-)) No, I don't think you did because it wasn't directed to you. And, yes, I agree with you that conceit is very subtle and it comes out in many ways. Really, I had brought up this whole Pali issue a long time ago when I first joined this group. I stated that I wasn't going to use obscure Pali in my posts because it was being used in a pretentious way by some members. I also balked at looking up Pali words just to 'fit in'. This is nothing new. From this group, I got a bad taste of Pali use. But then I saw Kel using Pali in a way that was natural and unpretentious and I realized that I was wrong. I have also read some of the writings of Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw which also use extensive Pali in a good way. Now I am not so opposed to Pali use if it helps one to better learn and express the dhamma- but I doubt that I could ever learn to use Pali in such a natural way. Metta, James 41225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry Larry wrote: >L: A quick look at "The Buddhist Dictionary" yields the definition >of 'bhavana' as literally 'producing'. Would you like to add anything >to that? How does 'intention' contradict 'produce'? > > In very general terms, I was saying that kusala can, and does at times, arise without our intending it to do so. Have you ever (a) found yourself pondering over dhamma issues as you go about your daily routine, or (b) refrained from an adverse comment to someone because the thought popped into your mind that it just isn't necessary to say that, or (c) offered a friendly or reassuring comment to someone who appears to be uncomfortable or upset, or (d) on the spur of the moment offered your time or expertise to someone for their benefit? These are all instances of kusala arising without any sense of it being part of a 'practice' or something to be made to occur. So when it comes to the *minimum necessary* requirements (forgetting for the moment about whether some circumstances are 'better' that others), an appreciation of the value of kusala, especially when supported and reinforced by useful reminders such as we find in the texts, is sufficient 'motivation' to perform/develop/produce kusala. There is no *absolute* requirement for intention at the conscious level. This of course assumes that we have all developed kusala in the past, and so what we are in fact talking about is merely the arising of existing accumulated tendencies that are usually overshadowed by the far stronger accumulated tendencies for akusala. In the case of insight development, there needs to be in addition to the factors mentioned above an on-going exposure to the teachings on insight development presented in a form that is 'right' for us. But if we are fortunate enough to have this then the necessary conditions for insight development are complete. Of course, it takes a certain amount of confidence in the teachings to accept that no further input on our part is needed, since there are no instant results in the form of insight moments to verify what we have learnt from our study of the suttas and other texts (and which may run counter to our deeply held, intuitive views on what constitutes spiritual progress). But there are other aspects of the teachings that we can verify for ourselves and these can be the basis for confidence in what is said about insight development. >L: I think it is 'an intention' sometimes. When that is the case we >have two results, the kammic consequences of an intention and the >results of an action. These results of an action of body, speech, or >mind are often not what one originally intended (desired). But >sometimes they are. We often attribute these successful actions to >skill. I tried to find the Pali for 'skill' but all I could find >is 'kusala' as a definition. I'm not sure where that leaves the >argument, but if one's intention is to 'do good' then the vipaka will >be kusala regardless of how the action turns out, won't it? > > To take a specific example (if I have understood you correctly), where A's act is a kusala one (for example, A helps B to move his furniture), but the conventional result is unpleasant for B (A breaks B's furniture, or drops it on B's foot), that 'unpleasant' result for B has no effect on the likelihood of A's kusala act bringing its kusala vipaka for A. (However, we have to be careful about making any assumption that what we think of as an 'intention to do good' on our part is necessarily kusala; it may not be, depending on a number of factors.) >L: I would say 'self' prompted kusala is, by definition, kusala. > > Agreed. I was just trying to say we cannot go further and say, OK, in that case a good way of having more kusala would be to do more self-prompting. I think you can see that that actions performed arising from that kind of 'practice' would not be in the same class as actions that are self-prompted in the natural, non-deliberative way that first occurred. >L: I would say power is a level of skill, whatever that is. > > Power in any skilful (kusala) quality is a level of kusala. Power in any unskilful (akusala) quality is a level of akusala. >L: I would say to resolve to abandon belief in a self will have a >salutary (kusala) result because it is a salutary resolution. >However, I agree that more often than not the result of whatever >action one takes as a means to accomplish that abandonment will be >unsuccessful. Hence the necessity for repeated application and also >the cultivation of concentration skills and contemplation of the >dhamma. > > Unfortunately, we cannot assume that a resolve on our part to abandon belief in a self will necessarily be kusala. This is because it could be motivated by akusala, such as a desire for results, or just wrong view about what is meant by 'abandoning a belief in self'. In which case repeated application may not necessarily be such a skilful thing. However, with repeated contemplation of the dhamma such as you mention there will be times when this kind of resolve occurs naturally and spontaneously, and that is much more likely to be kusala I would say. Jon 41226 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: deliberate, intention, etc. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/23/05 8:18:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I have no trouble with your words deliberate or effort, or intention. You > very, very often (you said before: ad nauseam) explained that you realize > that these are all qualities that are conditioned, not belonging to a self. > Lodewijk suggested the word encouragement in the context of recommendation. > Prescribed, you added, recommended. It is of no use to fall over words. For > me, I am not inclined to debates about them. ------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. So long as we pretty much understand what the other means, the conversation is good. ------------------------------------- > I found it liberating for myself to hear from Kh Sujin that we do not have > to force ourselves to certain difficult practices, but can develop > understanding naturally in daily life. To me this makes a lot of sense. > Daily life is the test for our understanding she said. But what is forced > for one person is not forced for someone else. Let everyone decide for > himself. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. A middle-way approach, tailored to the needs of the individual - a "relaxed firmness" of approach. ------------------------------------ > I do something similar to what you do and some people may think this > forced: > my alarm goes at 5.30 on weekdays. I am getting old and time flies more and > more quickly. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, you've noticed that. ;-) I'm a bit younger than you, and I have been observing that the weeks just FLY by!!!! So fast it is hard to believe. Even at the conventional level, as one ages impermanence is right in front of one all the time. --------------------------------- If I do not get up early, with a certain discipline, I would> > have no time for listening to Dhamma, just could not fit it in. Yes, a > certain discipline. As you said before, human nature is weak, and we easily > get into the habit of sleeping long, of sluggishness. > -------------------------------- Howard: I think that this practice of yours is wonderful! Anumodana!! -------------------------------- Still, I do not feel> > forced with a certain amount of discipline, otherwise nothing gets done. I > like the Buddha's texts to the monks on sluggishness, being attached to > sleep. I see those as a recommendation, encouragement, whatever you call it, > I do not fall over words. > -------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! ------------------------------- > I am glad you see the importance of listening, there are so many texts in > the suttas about this. > Nina ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41227 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/23/05 8:38:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > > > As preamble, I think I'll just say that we certainly disagree on this > >one, and there seems little prospect of a rapprochement in sight! ;-)) I'll > > >add just a couple brief comments below. > > > > > > In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by > ‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, > too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) > --------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps not. 'Recommend' is definitely what I mean. The Buddha put forward a variety of conventional practices as useful and conducing to the good. -------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > > That's correct. This sutta [No. 1] does not discuss method. But it > >*does*instruct the hearer to abandon evil, and states that it is possible > to do so. > > > > > > I think ‘recommend’ (rather than 'instruct') would aptly describe the > import of the Buddha’s words in this sutta, too. Is that how you would > see it? > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. ------------------------------------- > > We should also bear in mind that the suttas were audience- and > occasion-specific to a degree, and what was taught on a given occasion > was the appropriate 'medicine' for that audience on that occasion. > > > >Howard: > > But you ignore the opening phrase: "Thus should one train oneself". I > >take that to mean exactly what it says. > > > > > > But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train > oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We > shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a > straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for) > -------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely that the Buddha was not simply advising "Just say no!" or "Just don't do it!" The conventional practices recommended by the Buddha - and I agree that there was some variation in them, tailored to individual needs - were many, complex, and often quite subtle. --------------------------------------- > > which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to > break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being > recommended here? > --------------------------------------- Howard: In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from akusala as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging kusala as possible. --------------------------------------- > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, op 22-01-2005 01:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was translated > from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on > watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on > outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken > care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually > become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea > in the Potthila Thera's story. N: When I read suttas, I cannot help getting the impression that the Buddha speaks all the time about six doorways, the objects experienced through them and the cittas that experience them. Nina. 41229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - D.O. and the sotapanna. Dear Tep, op 22-01-2005 02:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > T: The Vera Sutta does not specifically states that all stages of insight > knowledge must be realized before the D.O. can be "truly understood". > Looking at the description of the D.O. knowledge in the Vera Sutta, I > think it is not deep -- there is no clue that relates to "all stages of > insight > knowledge". Here is how it goes: > > "And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly > ferreted out through discernment? N: My PTS translation has instead of: : . Reading the context, it is about a sotapanna. Unwavering confidence, and the other attributes: virtues unbroken, generous. A sotapanna has gone through all stages of insight. Tep quotes: > "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When > this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When > this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of > that. [endquote] N: After that the D.O. is explained in detail. Nina. 41230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, op 22-01-2005 03:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: The passage > from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me > another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What > is the title of this publication? N: It was just a post written to Lars. Maybe you could find it under Lars? T: You use the term satipatthana rather than sati (mindfulness) or samma- > sati. Is there a special meaning about satipatthana beyond the Four > Foundations of Mindfulness [DN 22]? T: Good you ask. Satipatthana can mean: 1: the objects of sati sampajañña, nama and rupa, classified as the four satipatthanas 2: sati of the level of satipatthana which is mindful of those objects. Then it is actually sati sampajañña, because sati without understanding is not very meaningful. 3. The Path the Buddha and his great disciples walked. This is explained in the Sutta as not being delighted when people listen nor being downcast when they do not listen. See: ³Middle length Sayings² III, no 137 : Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field. 2.The Papañcasúdaní, Commentary to the Satipaììhånasutta, Middle Length Sayings. 3. The Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division). Satipatthana no 2, when it is developed, is actually samma-sati and it must go together with samma-ditthi, right understanding. Thus usually when I say: satipatthana is being developed I mean no 2. I could also say: vipassana, or, the eightfold Path, meaning samma-sati and samma-ditthi together. As to no 1: this is very momentary, depending on where citta with mindfulness goes. When a rupa appears, there can be the first application, and so on for feeling, no specific order. Nobody there to direct it. This is good, otherwise we would not understand the nature of satipatthana as anatta. > T: Is sama-nana the Pali for "right understanding"? There is no samma- > nana in the Eightfold Path and neither samma-ditthi nor samma- > sankhappa is a good fit for right understanding, at least from my > understanding. N: sammaa-ññaa.na is not used for "right understanding", but samma-ditthi is. Pañña is of different levels and in different contexts specific terms are used. Vijjaa, amoha and ñaa.na are other words for paññaa, but all of them are amoha cetasika. T: Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when > vipassana develops also samadhi develops. N: When studying conditions we know that conascent dhammas condition one another. Mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are among the indriyas, and when these develop they become powers, balas, unshakable. See K.S. V, Kindred Sayings on the Powers (S.N. 50) T: Even in the case of > those who do not develop jhana."? N: Also those who do not develop jhana develop the stages of insight and become sotapanna. For them also there is the power of concentration together with the other powers. T: I only know the suttas that say > samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). N: For some samma-samadhi is of the degree of jhana, for others not. Nina. 41231 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken O. (also Howard, Kel, and Ken H) - I am so glad that you spent more time deliberating a reply to my mail. I must admit that this message # 41214 of yours is the clearest one I have ever seen. So I thank you much for that effort. --------------------------------------- KO: My inital reaction is that difficult is the path, difficult to understand that the believe that a deliberate action is also a subtle clinging. Because this concept of one deliberate action is always portray in the the sutta says that monks, do this or do that. Unless one sees the flood as a stream of conditions, there is no liberation. When one halt, one is attached, when one struggled one is also attached, only when one dont halt and dont struggled, noticing the flood with the three characteristics, then one is on the path. T: I cannot completely disagree with your statement, "a deliberate action is also a subtle clinging", Ken. The exception also exists. You're right about the Buddha's persuasion that his monks should do this, but not that, and that they should follow the Teachings with conscientious efforts. But there can be deliberation, attempt, exertion and effort along with right view and right mindfulness. So the end goal (Path consciousness) can be attained. ---------------------------------------- > T: Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from > "deliberate cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. KO: Citta is the king, the forerunner. It does not mean it can be deliberately control of it. If it is possible to control citta, then we would be always happy, we will not grow old or sad, in sum we will not have affliction. There is no stopping in this stream of citta, even if one think we can stop it, there is delusion because Buddha has said it clearly in the dependent origination, when this arise, that arise. It is stream of continuous citta, it is a stream as long as kamma permits it. T: Citta -- stream of consciousness -- is not permanent; it arises and disbands because of paccaya. Cetana can influence citta, and right efforts in the sense of deliberate cultivation of sila, samadhi and panna, do influence citta. Kelvin said it clearly in his message # 41213, "It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine". Very well said, Kelvin. --------------------------------- Howard: > There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were > not possible he would not say it is. KO: Definitely it is possible only with the arisen of the knowledge of anatta. This sound very ironic, on one hand, citta comes and goes without any self involved yet on the other hand there is always this believe one can control the flow. In fact the penetrative knowledge of conditions in the three characteristics actually helps solve the problem of cyclic rebirth. T: Doesn't cetana influence the "direction of mind", regardless of the knowledge of anatta? ------------------------------- > Howard: After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no > controlling of it, right? KO: There is world of difference between knowing them arise with knowledge of them of three characterisitcs and one who observe them as a third party like a socialogists. I remember I read this sutta about even when armed robbers saw you limb by limb, one should not be angry? Why, because, how would one be angry if there is no one to be found in the first instance. If physical pain does not belong to be mine, where is there one to be angry. Physical pain is just another condition, so without halting to the craving of I, where is there fire to support the growth of anger. Without the support the three latency of the three roots, there is no more I around for it burn for endless samasara. If there is no lantency of I around to feed the three roots, it is impossible for one to commit any akusala behaviour. It is only when our latency is dormant and feeding the three roots, one commit akusala. Hence to me, when the one see conditions with the three characteristics, akusala will eventually stop on its own as there is no more wood for the fire to burn. Since these people as describe by you are still does not known the three characteristics, the fire still burning in them, so naturally these type of situation arise. T: The sociologists may disagree! But I do agree with you about the latent tendency feeding of lobha, dosa and moha. Moreover, who can deny your following words of wisdom? : "...when one sees conditions with the three characteristics, akusala will eventually stop on its own as there is no more wood for the fire to burn". Very well said, Ken O.. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep and Howard > > My inital reaction is that difficult is the path, difficult to > understand that the believe that a deliberate action is also a subtle > > > Ken O > 41232 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. > the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct of a monk who > is non-arahat and arahat. Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. A layperson can become an arahat, just can't stay as a layperson then. The reasons vinaya rules were added incrementally is because the order grew and many non-ariyas joined causing problems. For an ariya the rules are already natural part of their living style. Therefore, anyone who's properly training to become an ariya should have similar quality of conduct or they probably have no hope of becoming one. People say a sotapanna has perfect sila; I say to become a sotapanna one needs to have perfect sila. > Through satipatthåna we learn that whatever is experienced are only nåmas > and rúpas arising because of conditions. > Kel: yes? I'm not sure if there's any point you're trying to make here except saying basic principles. > I have a small matter that only concerns terms or names. You spoke about > phala samaapatti. This is not the same as the arising of the phalacittas > succeeding the magga-cittas when enlightenment is attained. Those are only > two or three moments. Kel: it was a simple point from classification of consciousness that magga and phala are expanded in the same exact way. Thus no matter in magga vithi or samapatti vithi they should be understood in the same way. > Phala samaapatti can only be attained by ariyans who developed both jhana > and vipassana and have masteries of jhanas, as Htoo explained. For them > phalacittas can arise again many times during their life. This is abiding in > bliss here, now. Kel: well I verified with my Abhidhamma teacher and he said obviously phala samapatti can be realized without attainment of mundane jhanas. As I said, mastery of mundane jhanas involves being able to advert and acquire the nimittas. If you can acquire nibbana through lakkhanas then one can very well lack nimittas but still be able to achieve phala samapatti. Next week my teacher might provide technical references to prove this point. > I quote again from the Dhamma Issues in Thai: > fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti 15) which > are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to > attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained > enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different > stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta > (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with > the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non- returner and > arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and > arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. > Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different > attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations.> Kel: I already read all these Dhamma issue threads and I don't agree with the logic. Every lokuttara cittas are accompanied by factors of different jhanas, with the least being first jhana. So I don't see how the "therefore" is reached. Also I remember the argument those threads drew with Suttas on recollections and how obviously its not in the "pleasant abiding" enumerated, the logic is flawed. The argument of access concentration for certain objects forgets that one can switch the object once it reach access to accomplish absorption. - kel 41233 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:44am Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep/ Are Jhanas not Right Concentration? Hi Ken O. and James - We have a few issues here that should be clarified. 1. Jhanas taught by yogis before the Budha's Enlightenment are not Right concentration (sama-samadhi) which is defined in Maha- satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) and Jhana Sutta (AN IX.36). 2. Sama-samadhi as a Path factor arises only with the support of the other 7 Path factors. Please read Maha-cattarisaka Sutta < Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with these seven factors is called noble right concentration together with the means and the accessories. ... To one with right mindfulness arise right concentration.To one with right concentration arise right knowledge. To one with right knowledge arise right release.> Ken O. : If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been enlighted earlier. His two teachers would have been Arahants. That is why to me one must see the commentary after seeing the sutta or the likelihood of erring is very high. T: Ken, could you please kindly show the commentary that says that jhanas, as defined in the Jhana Sutta (AN IX.36) or DN 22, are not right concentration? Also, if you can, explain why the Right concentration defined in DN 22 is not "jhanas"? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > Ken O: Attaining jhanas is not right concentration > > James: Jhanas are Right Concentration. See this link: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > Ken O: because Buddha also attain jhanas before he is buddha after > learning from his two teacher. > > James: The Buddha had learned the immaterial attainments from his > previous teachers, not the jhanas. > > Ken O: If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been > enlighted earlier. > > James: The only time the Buddha had practiced the jhanas is when he > was a child and he spontaneously entered the first jhana, after that > he never practiced them again. Actually, he had been afraid to > practice them because they produced pleasurable sensations and he > had forsaken pleasure in all forms: > > "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, > and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental > qualities -- I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on > that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to > do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' > I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing > to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental > qualities…" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn036.html > > Metta, > James 41234 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:13am Subject: Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi Jon, I don't think there is any real disagreement in our understandings of the difference between prompted and unprompted consciousnesses. The unprompted variety is more potent, but even a sutta is a prompt. You wrote: "Unfortunately, we cannot assume that a resolve on our part to abandon belief in a self will necessarily be kusala." I disagree. There could, and almost certainly will be akusala cittas arise with this resolution simply because we are not arahants and an arahant wouldn't make this kind of resolution. However, I think there are certain prescribed kusala intentions that conform with the paramis and these are necessarily kusala. There could, of course, be the case where one is merely paying lip service to kusala intentions and not really intend anything of the kind. One little knot I found in my own logic is where I was talking about two kinds of result of an intention, the kamma result sometime in the future and the result of the action more or less in the present. That result of an action is actually a kamma result of a past intention, not the intention that initiated the action. If you think about it this is extremely counter intuitive: the cup of tea that I supposedly made I did not really make, rather, the cup of tea is the result of an unknown intention that arose possibly in a former life. I don't know what to say about this except that it points out the impractical nature of the kamma theory. Any ideas? Larry 41236 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken H., Kelvin and Howard - Thank you all for the great discussion that is at the core of the Dhamma. Here I have combined three messages togther, # 41211, 41213, and 41216, to give a single reply/discussion below. Because of the combination, this message is rather long. I apologize for that. ------------------ KH: The Buddha warned us that his Dhamma was extremely profound and that it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. And we need to know that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and totally inadequate for vipassana. How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. Kel: Yet at the same time, these convential things and knowledge are the objects to utilize in our path to panna. Observing and analyzing superficial things to penetrate the aberrant truth they represent. ... There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow backwards so can only alter the future course. Howard: Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut- abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the reality, and they are not confused. Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is acting". There IS acting. There IS willing. Moreover, all true conventional statements that are made are, indeed, TRUE. They have to be properly understood, not taken at literal face value, but *not* just dismissed as false. T: I believe both conventional knowledge and ultimate-realities knowledge must work to support each other in order that the practitioner (I rather say "meditator") may be able to progress from the worlding level [where the anatta truth is not comprehended, and the conventional truth is the only way of communication] to the mundane (lokiya) level [where the basic understanding of the right view is mature and the Path is near], and finally to supra-mundane(lokuttara) level of the Ariyas where the anatta truth is fully penetrated at the end. ---------------------- > Howard: "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular > sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, > but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, > influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. KH: Tep, do you agree with Howard? I think he is sidestepping the question of anatta. In what way or ways can we choose to influence future experiences? Where is the being that chooses? Aren't there just conditioned dhammas? Howard: Indeed, just conditioned dhammas - and even they are wrongly understood as little self-existent actors! No being is required. But to speak of beings and other "things", which the Buddha did all the time, is useful speech. An arahant, were s/he to decide to directly communicate only reality, would abandon the attempt at communcating entirely, and simply remain silent. There is no communication that conveys only reality to worldlings and lesser ariyans. T: Ken, I agree with Howard. The disagreement you have possibly stems from the diametrically different viewpoint - paramattha desana (explanation true in the highest sense) versus vohara desana (conventional exposition). --------------- Howard:> "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not > possible he would not say it is. KH: Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise instead. Similarly with kusala vipaka cittas, they can cause kusala javana cittas to keep arising instead of lobha. It's realizing what cannot be changed (past) and what can be changed (present), amoha. It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. This is more technial argument for the same thing Howard said. Howard: Yes, that conventional action is one of many conventional actions that a conventional person can conventioally decide to conventionally carry out. In *actuality* there is no being who can hear or contemplate the Dhamma, and in actuality there is no reality called "the Dhamma". T: Howard and Kelvin are right, Ken. ----------------------- KH: Furthermore, I suspect the first category - those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching - could include people who advocate wrong view. That is, the view that enlightenment is attained through "striving" in the conventional sense of the word (as in the Ogha Sutta). But people who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" do not necessarily believe that "standing still " (doing nothing), is the way. We can be conscientious worldling Dhamma students without subscribing to either of the wrong views. T: Do the people 'who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" ' believe in right effort (samma-vayama)? Please notice that right effort means right exertions as stated in the sutta quote: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." --- [MN 44 ] So it should be very clear that without the "right effort" there is no right mindfulness of the four foundations (body, feeling, mind, mind-object). Without right mindfulness (satipatthana) how could we condition panna (penetration of the Truths) to arise? Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 1/23/05 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 1/23/05 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: 41237 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Nina - > N: When I read suttas, I cannot help getting the impression that the >Buddha speaks all the time about six doorways, the objects >experienced through them and the cittas that experience them. T: Thank you for gently disagree with concept of "keeping awareness inside" while shutting off the other 5 doors. It is true that no less than 99.99% of the suttas, one of which is the Maha-salayatanika Sutta, is about the six doorways, "the objects experienced through them and the cittas that experience them", like you said. However, the lack of majority support does not mean that Upasika Kee was wrong. Have you read the Potthila Thera's story yet? Another evidence of this special "way to Arahatship" is given by Venerable Ananda Thera in AN IV.170, Yuganaddha Sutta. "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? ... ... ... "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 22-01-2005 01:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. 41238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' Hi Jon and Larry, and Joop, op 23-01-2005 14:45 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@n...: Hi Jon, I had to laugh about moving the furniture with kusala citta, bumping on a toe etc. I like your examples of spontaneous kusala, and these are exactly what Larry does, I have noticed. Especially c and d I noticed. He helped someone who was in trouble and I appreciated this. He gave the link to Soma Thera, he types Visuddhimagga himself considering this as bhavana. So this helps with 1 also, while he is working. J: In very general terms, I was saying that kusala can, and does at times, > arise without our intending it to do so. Have you ever (a) found > yourself pondering over dhamma issues as you go about your daily > routine, or (b) refrained from an adverse comment to someone because the > thought popped into your mind that it just isn¹t necessary to say that, > or (c) offered a friendly or reassuring comment to someone who appears > to be uncomfortable or upset, or (d) on the spur of the moment offered > your time or expertise to someone for their benefit? These are all > instances of kusala arising without any sense of it being part of a > Œpractice¹ or something to be made to occur. N: Good examples for daily life, appreciating the value of kusala. I am thinking of Joop who likes the social aspect of Dhamma. I discussed with Lodewijk that by knowing that we all are citta, cetasika and rupa, arising because of conditions, our attitude to others changes. We become more tolerant, although at times we fail. We at least see the value of thinking less of self and more of others. L: Hence the necessity for repeated application and also >> the cultivation of concentration skills and contemplation of the >> dhamma. N: concentration skills: this should be together with pañña. When the Buddha speaks about concentration this is always implied. It is different from before the Buddha's time. Jhana is not for everybody, we have to study the Visuddhimagga, lest we take for jhana what is not truly jhana. J: However, with repeated contemplation of the dhamma such as you mention > there will be times when this kind of resolve occurs naturally and > spontaneously, and that is much more likely to be kusala I would say. Nina. 41239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali users Hi James, thank you for your post. I am glad about your thoughts re Pali. In Myanmar and Sri Lanka children learn chanting, learning texts by heart. That is such a great help, then you do not forget. It becomes very natural. Nina. op 23-01-2005 14:40 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > No, I don't think you did because it wasn't directed to you. 41240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kelvin, op 20-01-2005 21:34 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: > Kel: It's clear what is known by each tender insight due to their > descriptions. But how come people who reached the tender insights > (even sankharupekkha) go backs to their akusala ways? N: Because akusala is not eradicated, and different kinds are eradicated at the stages of insight. It seems to me very discouraging if the person who attains sotapatti magga does not even know this. What are we doing then, developing right understanding? And the result is not known? K: So to me > magga is nothing more than mature panna that one cannot lose > anymore. Every sotapanna no longer have potential to commit akuala > that will lead to 4 lower realms and the cetasikas that are source > of such actions. N: Right. But Magga paññaa is altogether different from mundane pañña. K: That doesn't mean every sotapanna know what has > taken place and can declare themselves to be such and such. This > would account for the fact you get different kinds of sotapannas > with varying degrees of lingering in different lokas. N: Yes, there are many different kinds of sotapannas. Some have only one rebirth, but anyway they have not more than seven rebirths. >> N: From the Tipitaka I get it that the order of the four stages is > fixed, >> think of the four pairs of men, indicating the magga-cittas and > phalacittas >> of the four stages. > Kel: I was referring to reviewing nanas which some put right > after magga-vithi. My point was it can happen right away, many days > later or never as they might've already achieved higher maggas. I > think it's basic knowledge that 8 happen in order precisely because > of the phala cittas following magga citta. N:I was mentioning this, because some people believe that phalacitta does not follow immediately upon magga-citta. There were some debates. **** Nina. 41241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Howard, well said. I especially like: Otherwise we delude ourselves. But, it is difficult, cittas go so fast. Of course, it depends on pañña. You said kind words, but I do not have a wonderful practice, that is said too much. Just a beginner with a lot of forgetfulness. But I had some helpful reminders because in August Lodewijk was not well at all. I thought we better have more sutta reading since he was not inclined to read himself. So I started reading aloud twice a day after meals, we call it our 'holy lecture'. Sickness has positive sides. But since India everything is better. He now reads suttas also for himself. And after some technical hurdles he reads Perfections in the recorder at Kh Sujin's request to him. Nina. op 23-01-2005 15:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as > best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from akusala > as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging kusala > as possible. 41242 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 a Pilgrimage India 3 a Chapter 3. Satipatthåna Satipatthåna pertains to our conduct in every day life. The goal of the teachings is detachment from the concept of self and from all akusala. When we cling less to the idea of self there are more conditions for wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Mindfulness and right understanding of all dhammas that appear lead to detachment from the concept of self. Sati and paññå are realities that can only arise when there are the right conditions, nobody can cause their arising at will. This will be clearer when we consider the different levels of sati. Sati arises with dåna, with síla and with bhåvanå, including samatha and vipassanå. Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, it arises with each kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for generosity, sati is heedful, non-forgetful, so that this opportunity is not wasted. When sati does not arise, we are forgetful of kusala and we are unable to be generous. When there is an opportunity for dåna, we are often neglectful and we waste this opportunity. When sati does not arise, we are unable to give, we are stingy. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Also reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. In order to understand what sati of satipatthåna is, we have to know what its object is. The Buddha speaks about all realities we can experience one at a time through the six doors. He speaks about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, attachment, anger. These dhammas occur in daily life, and we can thoroughly penetrate their true characteristics only by mindfulness and understanding when they appear at this moment. Therefore, we should ask ourselves: what does paññå understand at this moment? Does it understand what seeing is, what hearing is? After seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions defilements arise on account of what we experience. We should realize all such moments as conditioned dhammas. **** Nina. 41243 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:40pm Subject: remaining calm / was: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi James, -------------- > James: Hmmm…you were able to remain calm when cut off on the highway- an action that could have killed you- and yet you couldn't remain calm by a remark I made in a post? Odd. > ------------------------- Maybe it's not so odd: I can think of several possible reasons. The thoughtless motorist was unknown to me; you, on the other hand, are one of a small group of people I spend half my life with. -------------------------------- J: > Really, you shouldn't pay me that much heed. -------------------------------- How much heed should I pay to your telling me not to pay you that much heed? :-) Nothing's ever simple, is it? We shouldn't get angry, we should do this, we shouldn't do that, but things just seem to happen against our will. I think it is because we don't really know what we are talking about. To really, deeply, understand why we shouldn't get angry, we have to understand that there are only dhammas. ------------- J: > Someone made an off-hand remark about `those who think they are jhana masters and sotapannas' -------------- I wonder who that could have been. :-] (innocent face) ----------------------- J: > and I knew it was directed at me (can't remember who wrote it and don't want to search now). And you know what I did? I smiled and ignored it. Who cares what people think about me? You shouldn't care what I think about others either. ----------------------- The only reason I shouldn't care is because there are only dhammas. If there really were an entity called James, or Ken H, then of course I should care. But, again, there is no point in pretending to understand just because we should understand. We should be arahants, but we aren't. And it is important to know that we haven't even begun to be arahants - that is, we aren't sotapannas. We are a long way from being sotapannas because we have hardly even begun to know that there are only dhammas. That's that way I see it, anyway. Ken H 41244 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:17pm Subject: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hi all I asked this the other day: >>I can't remember now which Nikaya it is in, but there is in my opinion a very impportant sutta that gets at this issue. It is about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. Does anyone know the sutta I'm referring to? Since then, I've looked through my sutta anthologies and googled the above title phrase but with no avail. It must not have been "protecting" the truth, I know I did read a sutta with a similar gist (unless I completely misunderstood it, quite possible.) Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 41245 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Vism.XIV,133 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [ACCORDING TO ASSOCIATION WITH CONSCIOUSNESS] 133. I. (1) Herein, firstly, those associated with the first sense-sphere profitable consciousness (1) amount to thirty-six, that is to say, the constant ones, which are twenty-seven given in the texts as such, and the four 'or-whatever-states',59 and also the five inconstant ones (cf. Dhs.1). Herein, the twenty-seven given as such are these: (i) contact, (ii) volition, (iii) applied thought, (iv) sustained thought, (v) happiness (interest), (vi) energy, (vii) life, (viii) concentration, (ix) faith, (x) mindfulness, (xi) conscience, (xii) shame, (xiii) non-greed, (xiv) non-hate, (xv) non-delusion, (xvi) tranquility of the [mental] body, (xvii) tranquility of consciousness, (xviii) lightness of the [mental] body, (xix) lightness of consciousness, (xx) malleability of the [mental] body, (xxi) malleability of consciousness, (xxii) wieldiness of the [mental] body, (xxiii) wieldiness of consciousness, (xxiv) proficiency of the [mental] body, (xxv) proficiency of consciousness, (xxvi) rectitude of the mental body, (xxvii) rectitude of consciousness. The four 'or-whatever-states' are these: (xxviii) zeal (desire), (xxix) resolution, (xxx) attention (bringing to mind), (xxxi) specific neutrality. And the five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. These last arise sometimes [but not always], and when they arise they do not do so together. ------------------------------- Note 59. Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1). Cf. also M.i,85. 41246 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: remaining calm / was: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Ken: Maybe it's not so odd: I can think of several possible reasons. The thoughtless motorist was unknown to me; you, on the other hand, are one of a small group of people I spend half my life with. James: Interesting. I still don't consider myself as a member of the `group' you describe. I see myself as an outsider…maybe that is because I want to be an outsider. Hmmm…hard to say. But anyway, I am really, really sorry if I upset you too much (though I meant to upset you a little bit…that is the Zen in me ;-)) Ken: How much heed should I pay to your telling me not to pay you that much heed? :-) James: Oh, a koan. I like it! ;-)) Seriously, I just wish you wouldn't pay me that much heed (then I can remain the outsider), it wasn't a command. Ken: To really, deeply, understand why we shouldn't get angry, we have to understand that there are only dhammas. James: If that works for you, okay. Personally, I try to not get angry because it causes suffering for me and for others. Different perspective than yours, but the same end result, hopefully. Ken: I wonder who that could have been. :-] (innocent face) James: Oh, you rascal! ;-) No big deal. Ken: The only reason I shouldn't care is because there are only dhammas. If there really were an entity called James, or Ken H, then of course I should care. James: No, you shouldn't care what people think because then you become their prisoner. There are entities called James and Ken H., and they deserve love, respect, and compassion. Ken: But, again, there is no point in pretending to understand just because we should understand. We should be arahants, but we aren't. And it is important to know that we haven't even begun to be arahants - that is, we aren't sotapannas. We are a long way from being sotapannas because we have hardly even begun to know that there are only dhammas. That's that way I see it, anyway. James: Okay, if that's the way you see it. But, if you don't believe that you are a sotapanna then you had better get to work quickly to become one, because this lifetime could be your only chance. You could be reborn into one of the other realms of existence, never come across a Buddha's teaching again, and be lost forever in samsara. It's not a very pleasant perspective is it? What qualifies one as a sotapanna is a very controversial subject because there are different opinions. To keep things simple, I just turn to what the Buddha said: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks." James: The first three fetters are personality belief, belief in rites and rituals, and skeptical doubt. Now Ken, you obviously don't believe in the existence of a self (a bit of overkill on that one ;-)), you don't believe in rites and rituals leading to purification, and I don't see any evidence that you have doubt as to the Buddha's teachings. Now, to my understanding, you qualify as a sotapanna. I am hearing of all kinds of other qualifications from the commentaries: like no jealousy, no wrong views, and perfect sila, but I don't believe any of it. A sotapanna could live for up to seven more lifetimes and I am supposed to believe that this entity would never experience jealousy, wrong views, and would always keep perfect sila? I don't buy it. Just think about today's world. For example, as a gay man living in the Middle East I have to sometimes lie about my sexuality or risk being put in jail. I don't want to lie but I have to. How may other such situations could an entity expect to find itself in in seven different lifetimes? Does that mean I'm not a sotapanna because I lie about my sexuality sometimes? Well, you may think so but I don't. I go back to what the Buddha taught. If I'm wrong...well, I hope I don't meet you in hell. ;-) Metta, James 41247 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Hi James, Christine and all This is a topic that always interests me and I was involved in the last discussion so let me jump on in. > Now, Roja probably responded so quickly and so strongly because it > was the Buddha radiating this metta! We can all radiate this type > of metta to people, and help them (influence them toward good), I keep going back and forth on this one. I still think it's better if the metta arises in an unexpected way, due to conditions. I am often aware of this sort of thing going on in daily life, the way I'll be irritable one minute and quite suddenly feel a friendliness arise due to something going on, often something I see, often less clear why. I really find this kind of "suprised by metta" feeling very precious and I still tend to feel that sitting at home and intentionally generating metta *might* take away from a very rare experience, an experience which allows me a glimpse of the conditioned nature of realities. On the other hand, I also do know from experience that reflecting on metta in the morning will condition more of it to arise in a much more predictable way during the day, and this will help me to be harmless towards others. No doubt about that. So why not do it? I guess it still feels sometimes like a coping mechanism, a comfort zone, and I really do believe the BUddha did not intend us to be comfortable in a predictable way - he intended us to learn from any reality that arises, be it pleasant or unpleasant. As for the second part, about helping other people towards good through radiating metta towards them, again how much more helpful it is to others when the friendliness arises from us, through us, in a natural way. The other day at work I was irritable and didn't feel like teaching two consecutive classes of low level students. (I work at a school where my schedule changes day by day, with different students much of the time.) But there was a fellow in there who was just beaming, and in a real way (I'm sure we all know people whose friendliness feels insincere) and almost immediately I felt my irritablilty ease away thanks to him. And that conditioned friendliness on my part that I was able to share with students I met later in the day. So yes, he did help me towards good. I think it's safe to say, however, that he had no intention of doing so. I'm going to keep thinking about this, but for now I still think it is best not to intentionally radiate metta (just my opinion of course.) If we did it *might* be a case of seeking to imitate the Buddha in a way for which we are not yet prepared and which might only lead us down a pleasant garden path. (snip) > This is why I stress the importance of metta meditation, because it > benefits not only oneself but also others. (I know the harsh > language I use in posts may make it seem like I am a real jerk > sometimes, but I am not really that way. I wish metta for everyone, > everyday. We share an interest in uprooting the unwholesome roots and cultivating the wholesome roots. We all share that interest. I think it was Ayya Khema who said "we all have the same job to do" or words to that effect when referring to the above. Our different approaches to this job come from different conditions and accumulations, that's all. Non-radiated Metta, Phil 41248 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Nina:> the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct of a > monk who > > is non-arahat and arahat. =========== > Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a > difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. Dear Kel, I might have this wrong but I think an Anagami has absolutely no sense desire. They can't have sex, enjoy wearing good clothes, etc. I take that any serious Buddhist layepople must also be like this? RobertK 41249 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:18pm Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Hello Phil, James and all, It has been said that radiating/pervading the Brahma Viharas - in particular, metta and karuna - is the nearest equivalent to prayer in the Theravada tradition. Here is an interesting three page article from the New York Times: "Can Prayers Heal? Critics Say Studies Go Past Science's Reach" October 10, 2004 By BENEDICT CAREY http://tinyurl.com/65o3j metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi James, Christine and all > > This is a topic that always interests me and I was involved in the > last discussion so let me jump on in. > > > Now, Roja probably responded so quickly and so strongly because it > > was the Buddha radiating this metta! We can all radiate this type > > of metta to people, and help them (influence them toward good), > > I keep going back and forth on this one. I still think it's better > if the metta arises in an unexpected way, due to conditions. I am > often aware of this sort of thing going on in daily life, the way > I'll be irritable one minute and quite suddenly feel a friendliness > arise due to something going on, often something I see, often less > clear why. I really find this kind of "suprised by metta" feeling > very precious and I still tend to feel that sitting at home and > intentionally generating metta > *might* take away from a very rare experience, an experience which > allows me a glimpse of the conditioned nature of realities. > > On the other hand, I also do know from experience that reflecting > on metta in the morning will condition more of it to arise in a much > more predictable way during the day, and this will help me to be > harmless towards others. No doubt about that. So why not do it? I > guess it still feels sometimes like a coping mechanism, a comfort > zone, and I really do believe the BUddha did not intend us to be > comfortable in a predictable way - he intended us to learn from any > reality that arises, be it pleasant or unpleasant. > > As for the second part, about helping other people towards good > through radiating metta towards them, again how much more helpful it > is to others when the friendliness arises from us, through us, in a > natural way. The other day at work I was irritable and didn't feel > like teaching two consecutive classes of low level students. (I work > at a school where my schedule changes day by day, with different > students much of the time.) But there was a fellow in there who was > just beaming, and in a real way (I'm sure we all know people whose > friendliness feels insincere) and almost immediately I felt my > irritablilty ease away thanks to him. And that conditioned > friendliness on my part that I was able to share with students I met > later in the day. So yes, he did help me towards good. I think it's > safe to say, however, that he had no intention of doing so. > > I'm going to keep thinking about this, but for now I still think it > is best not to intentionally radiate metta (just my opinion of > course.) If we did it *might* be a case of seeking to imitate the > Buddha in a way for which we are not yet prepared and which might > only lead us down a pleasant garden path. > > (snip) > > > > This is why I stress the importance of metta meditation, because it > > benefits not only oneself but also others. (I know the harsh > > language I use in posts may make it seem like I am a real jerk > > sometimes, but I am not really that way. I wish metta for > everyone, > > everyday. > > We share an interest in uprooting the unwholesome roots and > cultivating the wholesome roots. We all share that interest. I think > it was Ayya Khema who said "we all have the same job to do" or words > to that effect when referring to the above. Our different approaches > to this job come from different conditions and accumulations, that's > all. > > Non-radiated Metta, > Phil 41250 From: seisen_au Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hi Philip, Canki Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya #95 If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. Steve. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > >>I can't remember now which Nikaya it is in, but there is in my > opinion a very impportant sutta that gets at this issue. It is > about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith > while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. > Does anyone know the sutta I'm referring to? 41251 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Nina, > > Kel: It's clear what is known by each tender insight due to their > > descriptions. But how come people who reached the tender insights > > (even sankharupekkha) go backs to their akusala ways? > N: Because akusala is not eradicated, and different kinds are eradicated at > the stages of insight. It seems to me very discouraging if the person who > attains sotapatti magga does not even know this. What are we doing then, > developing right understanding? And the result is not known? Kel: It's not really eradicated at the roots by tender insights, just temporarily lessened. If given a chance and time, the small seed will again accumulate akusala tendencies. Magga citta we agree is what destroys the seed once and for all. As for sotapanna, what does knowing the result give you? Can you do anything about it either way? No, you just do what you need to do by continuing the practice. So I personally don't see it as discouraging at all. If anything I fear a false positive because it might stop the practice. Like the story of an elder who fancied himself an arahat and when asked to create an elephant that came toward him; he forgot it's his own creation and started to run. Ashin Sariputta I believe caught him by the robes and asked would an arahat still have fear in them? > K: So to me > > magga is nothing more than mature panna that one cannot lose > > anymore. Every sotapanna no longer have potential to commit akuala > > that will lead to 4 lower realms and the cetasikas that are source > > of such actions. > N: Right. But Magga paññaa is altogether different from mundane pañña. Kel: Not so different really, a fully mature mundane panna leads to magga panna. > K: That doesn't mean every sotapanna know what has > > taken place and can declare themselves to be such and such. This > > would account for the fact you get different kinds of sotapannas > > with varying degrees of lingering in different lokas. > N: Yes, there are many different kinds of sotapannas. Some have only one > rebirth, but anyway they have not more than seven rebirths. Kel: Not exactly true as it's only maximum seven rebirths in sensual realms. The lowest sotapanna is guaranteed to be reborn in same or higher realm only. Hence they can never fall to the lower 4 lower miserable realms since a sotapanna would be in at least the human realm. In fact, owing to this is why arupa realms are no longer bad realms to be reborn into for sotapannas as they can keep progressing. My main point was that not all sotapannas are created equal, in fact not all arahats are either. They have differing degrees of knowledge and power. - kel 41252 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. Hi Robert, > Nina:> the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct > of a > > monk who > > > is non-arahat and arahat. > =========== > > Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a > > difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. > Dear Kel, > I might have this wrong but I think an Anagami has absolutely no > sense desire. They can't have sex, enjoy wearing good clothes, etc. > I take that any serious Buddhist layepople must also be like this? Kel: heh, you got me there Robert. I chose to use the highest attainable stage for layperson for illustration only. Sotapannas and sakagamis still enjoy the sensual pleasures of course, why else do they come back to the realms. :) I believe Goenka's assistant teachers all take vow of celibacy. Quite a few of them are married couples who actually work together for courses, including himself. He said it should be a natural part of the practice, there just comes a time when those intense craving such as sex will just reduce. Not to say willful suppression is the way because that will lead to problems. For a really seriously layperson, it MIGHT be a sign of their progress with no definitive implication. It should be a natural celibacy and non-desire for sensual pleasures, not fake or forced. In some sense, we waste a lot of time chasing after those pleasures and it can be spent better. - kel 41253 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:09pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Kel, I was saying we needed to "acknowledge our ignorance." You wrote: -------------------- > Sounds like too much self-deprecation to me. Conceit is even present in anagamis so it is a great danger. At the same time, you need confidence and strength to walk the path. > -------------------- At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd like to point out that only kusala consciousness can be a part of Dhamma practice. Intellectual understanding of ignorance can be kusala, and direct experience of the [just fallen away] moha-cetasika, can be kusala (with or without panna). On the other hand, neither self-deprecation nor conceit is kusala, and they cannot lead to enlightenment. So, when you said "Conceit . . . is a great danger. At the same time you need confidence and strength to walk the path," I don't think you meant a little bit of conceit could be a good thing. Did you? ------------- > Ken H: that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and totally inadequate for vipassana. > Kel: > Yet at the same time, these convential things and knowledge are the objects to utilize in our path to panna. Observing and analyzing superficial things to penetrate the aberrant truth they represent. --------------- Sorry to be argumentative all the time, but I wonder if 'observation of conventional reality' really is a part of the way. I know in the Tipitaka, for example, a housewife attained enlightenment when she realised she had burnt the curry, but I wonder if the Buddha recommended 'mindfulness of curry.' I don't think so. Many other teachers would recommend mindfulness of curry, but the Buddha's teaching was always profound. It was always about absolute reality. ----------------------- > Ken H: How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? > It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer > (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. > Kel: There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow backwards so can only alter the future course. ------------------------- I'm not so sure about the river analogy. The present moment can be properly understood as being part of a continuous stream of moments - there have been moments in the past and there will be moments in the future - but no actual stream of moments exists. You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question' but we need to be pretty strict with this one. :-) ---------------- KH: > Does cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? > Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise instead. -------------- I know cetana is a universal cetasika and so, without it, there can be no consciousness at all. But I'm not at all sure of what you are saying here. ------------------------- Kel: > Similarly with kusala vipaka cittas, they can cause kusala javana cittas to keep arising instead of lobha. > It's realizing what cannot be changed (past) and what can be changed (present), amoha. -------------------------- If there are the conditions (including the accumulated tendency) for kusala citta to arise in the given circumstances, then it will arise. But there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be willed to arise. ---------------------------------- Kel: > It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. -------------------------------- Well maybe it is in effect, but the teaching is to know the present reality. It is not to have concern for the future. ---------------- KH: > > Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the > Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the > arising of panna. > Kel: Buddha exhausted him physically while letting his mind to calm down to receive dhamma. -------------------------- No, the idea of a mind that calms down over a period of time is just a conventional reality. The real mind (citta) arises, lives and dies in a tiny fraction of a second. -------------------------- Kel: > Purely speaking of vithis, akusala javana and kusala javana cannot arise in the same vithi. So by definition the akusala cetana or whatever it was, already had no control before panna arose. -------------------------- Exactly! But that is part of the point I have been making. --------------- Kel: > Like the story of a woman who was so grief-stricken with the death of her son, she cannot receive dhamma even with enough capacity to. So Buddha sent her off The journey calmed her mind and reduced intensity of the grief so she's no longer blinded by it. Then when she came back with a convential understanding that no one is free from death of a loved one, she can finally understand Buddha's words to become an ariya. -------------------- We need a thorough understanding of Abhidhamma before we can understand suttas. For example, we need to know that the story of a bereaved mother was just that - a story. In reality, there were moments of thinking with grief, followed by moments of bhavanga, followed perhaps by some moments with audible object and pleasant feeling, more bhavanga, and then more moments with grief, and so on. I understand the Buddha's teaching always applies to the present moment. If the present moment is a moment of extreme grief, then that can be the object of satipatthana. There is no putting it off until a more convenient time. Putting off will never condition satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. I don't think the rest of your post was imperative to the point you were making, so I'll snip it for brevity. Glad to see you back in the "anatta argument." Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Kel: Time to interject into this anatta argument again I guess. > > 41254 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:57pm Subject: Re: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hi all Thanks Steve! > Canki Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya #95 > > If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite > conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To > this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To > this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the > safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the > truth. I may have misinterpreted this, but it seems important and encouraging for me in my Abhidhamma studies. There is so much there that must be swallowed whole, if you will. If I try to confirm empirically whether there are bhavanga cittas or not, for example, I won't get anywhere. It helps to believe in very subtle/sublime dhammas whole-heartedly, even before we can possibly know them to be true. It seems to me that this is the only way for beginners to approach Abhidhamma - otherwise we get stuck in an excess of rational investigation. Does this sound like a proper interpretation of the above? Metta, Phil 41255 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > Nina:> the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in > conduct > > of a > > > monk who > > > > is non-arahat and arahat. > > =========== > > > Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a > > > difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. > > Dear Kel, > > I might have this wrong but I think an Anagami has absolutely no > > sense desire. They can't have sex, enjoy wearing good clothes, > etc. > > I take that any serious Buddhist layepople must also be like this? > > Kel: I believe Goenka's assistant > teachers all take vow of celibacy. Quite a few of them are married > couples who actually work together for courses, including himself. > He said it should be a natural part of the practice, there just > comes a time when those intense craving such as sex will just > reduce. ================= Dear Kel, So have all of Mr. Goenka's teachers have naturally given up sensual desire? If they have why do they need to take a vow, or are you assuming they do? I haven't read of all serious laypeople doing that in the Buddha's time, but I only know a few texts. Robertk 41256 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:58pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 106 - Concentration/ekaggataa (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** The word 'object' (årammaùa) as it is used in the Abhidhamma does not have the same meaning as the word 'object' or 'thing' we use in common language. In common language we may call a thing such as a vase an object. We may think that we can see a vase, touch it and know that it is a vase all at the same time. In reality there are different cittas which know different 'objects' (årammaùas) through their appropriate doorways. These cittas arise one at a time and know only one object at a time. The citta which sees knows only visible object, it cannot know tactile object or a concept. Visible object is that which is experienced through the eyes. What is seen cannot be touched. We may understand this in theory, but the truth should be verified by being mindful of different objects which appear one at a time. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41257 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, Howard and Ken O, Ken, perhaps you meant `Sujin' and not `Sukin' in your post about the dinosaurs? But even though I don't feel like I am one, admire them dinosaurs, I surely do! ;-) And Tep, when you urge all of us to applaud (perhaps you mean Sadhu, after all `applause' feels quite akusala doesn't it?) the mentioned post by Howard (though I like many of his other ones), I think I would be disloyal to the dinosaurs if I did. ;-) I am quite behind in my reading of the posts, and perhaps others have already given good and satisfactory answers. Hope you don't mind some comments from me anyway. Tep: > In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard > said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, including > Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from "deliberate > cultivation", It is to Howard that I once stated that as followers of the Buddha's Teachings, most of us have the impression that we are more or less *on* the middle course. So looking from where we are, other so called Buddhists are either on the left or the right side of this Middle Path. But maybe it is us who are on say, the left, and so even someone in the middle would appear right, no? But I think this is because our understanding of the Buddha's Teachings is still quite superficial and the way we consider it is mostly philosophical and often speculative. This is so even when we have come to the conclusion that `direct experience' is what matters as against `intellectual appreciation'. Because not knowing in practice the difference between concept and reality, we end up being quite taken in by conventional ideas of `practice' and so on. The common Thai usage of the word `patipatti' for instance, means `sitting practice', but this is not the meaning of the Pali. In Pali it is equivalent to a moment of `satipatthana', and in this there is no `person' who is doing any sitting practice. The question of `how to practice' is I think misplaced. There are only conditioned realities, some of which point to the wrong direction and some to the right. Appreciating the value of those dhammas that are positive is itself, positive. And if indeed there is any appreciation of the anatta and other conditioned nature of these same dhammas, then other positive dhammas may arise, like samvega, patience and courage. There is certainly no call for `sitting' nor is there any `reason' to `deliberately look'. From the stand point of someone who believes in "doing" something, this will be perceived as thinking, "Let be, let it be" in a fatalistic way, but samvega and khanti are accompanied by viriya too, no? Who knows which particular dhammas are conditioned to arise subsequently, there may even be many, many moments of sati and panna. Tep, these moments are the only real Middle Path, i.e. Satipatthana - Vipassana - Magga. The rest of the time we can talk about a lot of things, however I think that our view is consistent with this path of practice and with the conditioned nature of realities, particularly them being anatta, anicca and dukkha, in so far as we do not give importance to any particular time, place and posture and have any conventional idea about `practice'. The only real obstacle to satipatthana is miccha ditthi and one manifestation of this is the idea of `formal sitting' or that "Panna comes from "deliberate cultivation"". Panna does indeed require `development', in Thai `charoen', however this has nothing to do with what we understand by `intention' or `deliberateness'. As Jon has pointed out to Howard or Larry, this is all an aspect of `thinking'. We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather "panna" in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of `self', `other' and `activity', then even this is wrong. Some think that the objection to formal practice is `lobha' cetasika. No, the objection is towards `miccha ditthi', though this is accompanied by lobha. Also I note that those who believe in formal practice, they seem to over stress the need to practice sila. It is not that I don't think sila is important, but because `straightening of view' is primary, and part of this is being alert to `self view', drawing particular attention to other kusala does not occur. What I am trying to say is that even sila is mixed with `self view' by those who believe in "doing" and this makes the following of the precepts less pure. Enough for now. Excuse me for the bluntness, today I am feeling O.K. after six days of feeling quite unwell, implication; I read some of the posts here with irritation. :-) Metta, Sukin. 41258 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the feedback also. Here we may see a bit of a storm > brewing ;-). … S: Well, I took shelter for the weekend, but back to face it ;-) …. > James: This sounds fine to me, except I think you are missing > something: the eighth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: Jhana. …. S: I hope the present chapter on concentration from 'cetasikas' helps clarify why I'm not stressing jhana. We have something of an impasse here. …. > I read something in an article that best expresses what I want to say, > so I will just quote it. From "Practical Advice for Meditators" by > Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > > "One hears such remarks as, "What's the use of books and study?" Or > even, "The development of calm is a waste of time! One should only > develop insight." … S: Now assuming for the moment that you see what I (and some others) say to be represented by the second half of this statement, let me comment straight away that calm is present with every moment of wholesome consciousness. For example, at moments of giving, at moments of abstention from bad speech or killing, at moments of wise reflection on the Triple Gem or at moments of awareness (satipatthana), there is calm. Should we make a point of developing calm (samatha)? If we just try to have more calm by focusing on an object such as breath without any real understanding of the difference between wholesome and unwholesome moments of consciousness , then it's highly unlikely there will be any development of calm, however pleasant and tranquil the feelings may seem. If, on the other hand, we learn more about the distinction between calm with pleasant feeling, attachment with pleasant feeling and other mental states which follow each other so very closely, then calm will develop as a consequence of such understanding. Even at times of giving, reflecting on the Triple Gem or sitting quietly,mental states change rapidly and are bound to be very mixed. Calm will not be developed by desiring it or trying to have it arise with an idea of self in the hot-seat. …. <…> >Books and their study are useful to > some people who wish to gain a good background of what Lord Buddha > really said, before taking up more intensive practice. …. S: If we wait for another time or occasion or have an idea of an 'intensive practice' to develop satipatthana, it's bound to be motivated again by an idea of self or of certain practices being the way, rather than understanding the Dhamma. I like the Sappurisa Sutta (The True Man) a lot. Here is just one quote for now (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "Moreover, an untrue man who is learned…who is expert in the Discipline…who is a preacher of the Dhamma….who is a forest dweller…who is a refuse-rag wearer…an alms-food eater..a tree-root dweller….a charnel-ground dweller…an open-air dweller…a continual sitter….an any-bed user…a one-session eater considers thus: 'I am a one-session eater; but these other bhikkhus are not one-session eaters.' [the same for these are 9 of the 13 ascetic practices]. So he lauds himself and disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of an untrue man. "But a true man considers thus: 'It is not because of being a one-session eater that states of greed, hatred, or delusion are destroyed. Even though someone many not be a one-session eater, yet if he has entered upon the way that accords with the Dhamma, entered upon the proper way, and conducts himself according to the Dhamma, he should be honoured for that, he should be praised for that.' "So, putting the practice of the way first, he neither lauds himself nor disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of a true man." ***** S: Now you will rightly say, we're not talking about being a one-session eater, an ope-air dweller, a continual sitter and so on. But anytime we have the idea that being in 'accord with Dhamma' has anything to do with particular actions we follow or even association or identification with particular states, including jhanas, as the sutta continues to elaborate on, then there is no development of detachment from conditioned realities and no living according to the Dhamma. Even when we talk about association with wise friends in other suttas(sappurisa is also used), it is the quality of wisdom developed by the ariyans that is being referred to. I wrote about this in a detailed post before. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32824 …. >As for the > other assertion, no real insight (only delusive ideas) will arise to > the person whose mind has no experience of calm. Such views as > these, which are usually based on some peculiar experience of > those "teachers" who originate them, are apt to mislead many, since > the craving for quick results coupled with the dislike of the > necessary hard work, are easily stirred up. … S: I agree with this comment about 'craving for quick results' anyway. … > Sarah: Because there is no Andrew or Sarah in truth to do anything. > > James: Then who is writing this post to me signing her > name "Sarah"? Are you an alien who has taken over Sarah's body? > Give it back!! ;-)) … ;-)) Just namas and rupas. Certainly an alien way of seeing the truth, I agree. …. I believe that anatta means that there is no > abiding essence, no permanent self, no separate existence; it > doesn't mean that `Sarah' or `Andrew' doesn't exist. You arise, > persist, and pass away…you exist as a process, ever changing. …. S: And how is this process of 'Sarah' or 'Andrew' or 'James' experienced? Is it seen? Is it heard? Is it smelt? Is it tasted? Is it touched? Or……is it thought about? Metta, Sarah ======= 41259 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, I'm not sure I can add anything. As I mentioned before, I recommend you take a look at the posts under 'Fruition' (phala samapatti) in U.P. Nina has also added more. --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Let's take Abhidhamma classification into 5 basic jhanas. The > only difference between 5th rupa jhana and 4 arupa jhanas is the > object; the mental factors accompanying the jhanas cittas are the > same. Similiarly, 1st rupa jhana and 1st-jhana based 8 lokuttara > magga/phalas (in 121) have the same factors, just a different > object. So one can call them lokuttara jhanas, it's just a naming > convention to make things consistent (or prove sama samadhi). …. S: I'm not sure I'm with you here. The jhana cittas have the same factors and same objects in both cases, but of course the lokuttara cittas have different factors and different lokuttara phala. As Htoo explained, the jhana cittas have completely fallen away when the lokuttara cittas arise. Regardless of whether jhana has ever been experienced before or whether it is 'in the vicinity', it is still samma-samadhi at all moments of path development and lokuttara samma-samadhi accompanying lokuttara cittas. …. > The way I see your argument is, magga can be achieved without > mundane jhanas but phala-samapatti cannot be. Is that right? …. S: Yes. Also, the two or three phala cittas which always follow magga cittas are not dependent on prior jhana experience. As Nina indicated, we need to differentiate these phala cittas from phala samapatti (fruition abiding). …. > Otherwise we're just arguing about the name and definition of > jhana. When I write jhana, I mean mundane jhanas. Obviously if you > also include lokuttara cittas in the word jhana then there would be > no argument. …. S: I don't include 'lokuttara citta in the word jhana'. It doesn't make sense to me. …. > >S: But for these sukkha vipassakas, there can be no further phala > > samapatti or nirodha samapatti (even for anagamis or arahants). > Kel: I think you're combining phala-samapatti and niroda-sampatti > unncessarily. Here's a reference by mahai sayadaw about phala- > samapatti. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch7.18 > > His method is basically to meditate on the three lakkhanas > until "power of concentration has reached perfection". This is > achieving absorption concentration by using lakkhanas as objects as > oppose to nimittas. The way and the skill acquired by meditator is > the same because it mostly concerns samadhi. …. S: The way you describe it here is not the development of satipatthana as I understand it. Kel, I haven't looked at the particular link as yet, but am very familiar with mahasi Sayadaw methodology. …. >So if one is already > skilled in mundane jhanas before becoming an ariya, it'll be easy to > reach phala-samapatti. For dry-insight workers, they can use the > lakkhanas to practice and maintain phala-samapatti without mundane > jhanas and nimittas. …. S: I don't see any of this substantiated in the texts. For example, see these posts from the series Nina translated: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18141 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18204 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18317 … >Without mastery of all 5 rupa and 4 arupa > jhanas, there's no possibilty of obtaining nirodha samapatti for > anagamis and arahats. There's no arguing about that as it's crystal > clear in the texts. … S: Yes - good! We can drop this. … >To me, phala and nirodha samapattis are MILES > apart in terms of the skill required to obtain and you can't combine > them. Again phala-samapatti just requires an ability to acquire the > object (nibbana) and to stay absorbed in the object. This is very > much the same sequence as mundane jhana acquiring the object > (nimitta) and to stay absorbed. Nirodha has no object because > there's no citta hence no sanna, beating 4th arupa jhana's "sorta- > sanna". …. S: A question: Why are you so interested in this particular topic, if you don't mind me asking? What is the purpose of concentrating on any object? Please elaborate a little more on the importance of such a practice as you see/find it. Surely, concentrating on the three lakkhanas has little (if anything) to do with the development of understanding which will really lead to the direct and full realisation of the lakkhanas? Pls help explain your view on this to me as I feel I'm missing your point. Metta, Sarah ======= 41260 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:56am Subject: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Htoo, Glad for your further comments on any of these points: #DT40542 "The middle 5 javana cittas are so strong that the kamma that arises because of these middle cittas is able to give rise to effect or result for the whole samsara……from the third life…. So strong are those 5 middle javana cittas that they do carry the potentials or kamma along with each and every rising citta." S: I know what you mean and we've discussed the different javana cittas. The potential or accumulation is also carried by each citta as you say, but, as we've discussused, not all javana cittas are capable of bringing results - only when kamma patha factors are present as I understand. So I don't know that we can make such a blanket statement. ….. #mass destruction 40597 "Maha-karuna was so great that even after pasing away (mahaparinibbana) it was still working…" You then give the account of when MahaKassapa comes to Kusinara and how the feet of the Buddha came out to touch him on the forehead. … S: There's lots more detail in the comy to the Mahaparinibbana sutta and the power of MahaKassapa's resolve. (I know there is lots of other detail in later texts),.but I don't think we can talk about the Buddha's karuna here!! [In Kusinara on our recent trip, I found it so special to bow low at the feet of the statue and sit there for a while….it was hard for me to move away]. Also, all the detail about the distribuition of relics into eight is given in the commentary in a lot of detail. I'm not sure the comments you gave about the distribution are correct(??) You wrote about the river and the enemies on each side and the stopping of the war. I don't see this at a glance in the sutta or commentary. ….. Concepts & Qus discussion with TG & Howard S:I understood what TG and Howard were saying in this case about Culapanthaka - even the simplest instructions involve concepts. Also he's listened to Abhidhamma in previous lives and to his brother in this life, even if he had kept missing the point or not been able to retain any detail. As they said, we use concepts for communication. Of course, he directly understood the paramattha dhammas involved. No dispute about that! You mentioned that 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalent. I couldn't follow you. Anyway, it was a good discussion you all had. Unlike TG, I think it's essential to understand the difference between concepts and realities, but he knows that;-). I have some other comments, but maybe later. In the DT series, I think you need to keep giving lots of repetition and explanation. It helps a lot when you explain the Pali terms as well. We always have beginners or those who are new to the list as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 41261 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:06am Subject: Re:Joop's article on Western Buddhism Dear Nina and all The question of Nina "But do bring your points in English here, suitable for discussion" is not so easy. My (draft) article for a dutch journal is about 'Western buddhism'; or - the name I prefer "Global buddhism'. Perhaps 'dutch buddhism' is better because more modest, but we are talking about ideas, not about something that (already) exists. The readers of that journal are buddhists of different traditions (much Tibetan and Zen) or no traditions at all and people who are hardly interested in the Teachings of the Buddha like Zen-meditators. But I try to translate in a double way, in English and in short statements and question that maybe DSG-participants. The question was: is there coming a Western buddhism like there did, after centuries, grow a Chinese buddhism; both can be seen as a mixture of Chinese culture/philosopy (for exemple Daoism) and Indian buddhism. Joseph Goldstein (an author of may Insight meditation books) is an optimist in his book 'One Dharma': Goldstein believes that, as the categories of Asian Buddhism collapse, the practice of westerners in various Buddhist traditions is converging. The West, he suggests, has come into contact with the Buddhist tradition as a whole, not just one strand of it, so westerners who encounter Buddhism face a dilemma. On the one hand it is artificial to engage with a single Asian tradition to the exclusion of the others. On the other hand an eclectic sampling of numerous traditions risks superficiality and misunderstanding. Goldstein suggests that the resolution of this dilemma has been achieved in the actual experience of western practitioners such as himself, who have individually worked through the encounter between `the diversity and depth of the ancient Buddhist culture … [and] the openness and pragmatism of our contemporary western culture." Donald Lopez (in 'Modern Budhism') is in my eyes more a realist: "It is perhaps best to consider modern Buddhism not as a universal religion beyond sectarian borders, but as itself a Buddhist sect. There is Thai Buddhism, there is Tibetan Buddhism, there is Korean Buddhism, and there is Modern Buddhism. . . Like other Buddhist sects, modern Buddhism has its own lineage, its own doctrines, its own practices. . . And like other Buddhist sects, modern Buddhism has its own canon of sacred scriptures" In making a prediction there is always the possibility of wishful thinking; for that reason it's good first to formulate what one hopes and wishes before making a prediction. My "global buddhism" must still be buddhism, psychotherapy using some meditation techniques or NewAge using some (half understood) buddhist concepts should be critisised (one of the words I'm using too is 'critical buddhism', dutch buddhists are too nice, never criticise each other or bad developments in society). It can be mixed with other elements of (western/global) culture but not diluted. Anatta, anicca and dukkha must stay central terms, maybe in other words; and buddhism is not only meditation or only ritual but also ethics and dharma-study; (most Zen buddhists and many Tibetan don't like talking about ethics so that's a difficult point too). What I and some buddhist friends of me wish is that there exist 'secularised and multi-traditional sanghas' in our country where buddhist of different tradition can practice, study texts and discuss. And where rituals are developed which are a mixture of Asian ones and the metaphores belonging to our western culture. I know I don't use the term 'sangha' in the right orthodox Theravada way, as 'a group of monks'. I'm thinking of (a) a building, a little bit a temple and (b) a community, a group of people One of the practical activities that buddhist of different denominations can do together is that of 'engaged buddhism': done as a individual in in groups/organisation. But that is another discussion, that's should not especially be an attitude of global buddhism. Any comments? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Joop, > Your article is well written, not too long. > Some points are good for discussion here, like: engaged Buddhism, this is a > point Chris brought up in India. So, it is international. I think it is a > reaction to the idea that Buddhists should not be engaged, but the Dhamma is > also the application of metta and karuna. Kh sujin had doubts about it that > another kind of Buddhism, engaged Buddhism is necessary. You can hear this > on the sound tract Jon gave. > I think that if we understand that the essence of the Dhamma is developing > wisdom to know yourself, to know seeing, hearing, attachment etc. there is > no need for Western Buddhism. Everyone can apply the Dhamma in his own > situation and culture. No need to throw away one's culture. Seeing is > universal, hearing is universal. The texts deal with these realities. > But do bring your points in English here, suitable for discussion. > Nina. 41262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hello Phil. B.B. footnote to co to Perfections, khanti (The All-Embracing Net of Views, p. 258);: dhammanijjhaanakkhanti: <...used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the understanding...It is a suspension of disbelief born of trust...> It is a kind of patience. You have confidence in the Dhamma, but, say, you do not understand all that is said about rupas, such as life faculty or nutrition. Still, you do not reject what you do not quite understand. on p. 283, anulomiyam khantiyam .thito: acquiescence in conformity. This is in the development of insight. op 24-01-2005 01:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > It is > about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith > while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. 41263 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, I just wish you to know that I hadn't read your recent post to Nina (was behind on my reading from the weekend)on phala samapatti in which you said you'd read her series etc, were not convinced of the logic and were planning to get back on it after speaking to your abhidhamma teacher. Pls ignore my further recommendations to read the series. Apologies. Metta, Sarah --- sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Kel, > > I'm not sure I can add anything. As I mentioned before, I recommend you > take a look at the posts under 'Fruition' (phala samapatti) in U.P. Nina > has also added more. 41264 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:03am Subject: Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah, To be honest, you often remind me of a used car salesman trying to convince me that a car of inferior quality is just as good as a high priced vehicle. In this analogy, the car of lesser quality is mindfulness without concentration practice (jhana or vipassana) and the high priced vehicle is mindfulness with concentration practice. Is your cheaper vehicle going to get a person to nibbana? Possibly. But it is guaranteed to be an unpleasant journey with several breakdowns (akusala mental states), poor gas mileage (influence of the five hindrances), and poor speed (random and infrequent insights). The one advantage that your cheaper vehicle has is that it is cheaper-- in other words, it is easier. It doesn't require any sacrifices, changes in lifestyle, or any of that painful sitting in meditation for hours and hours. Unfortunately, the Buddha's path isn't supposed to be easy, it is supposed to be effective. Sarah: Now assuming for the moment that you see what I (and some others) say to be represented by the second half of this statement, let me comment straight away that calm is present with every moment of wholesome consciousness. For example, at moments of giving, at moments of abstention from bad speech or killing, at moments of wise reflection on the Triple Gem or at moments of awareness (satipatthana), there is calm. James: Does the Abhidhamma list these particular types of wholesome actions (by name) and state that the calm they produce is equal to the calm of jhana and/or vipassana practice? I think I already know the answer: no. This is an assumption on your part. (Inflate the quality of your product: Sales technique). Sarah: If we wait for another time or occasion or have an idea of an `intensive practice' to develop satipatthana, it's bound to be motivated again by an idea of self or of certain practices being the way, rather than understanding the Dhamma. James: This is another huge assumption on your part. Everything is controlled by conditions, so please explain the conditions (as you see them) which will make such practice `bound to be' motivated by the belief in a soul or belief in rites and rituals, and that there will be a lack of understanding the dhamma. (Demonize competing product: Sales technique). Sarah: Now you will rightly say, we're not talking about being a one- session eater, an ope-air dweller, a continual sitter and so on. But anytime we have the idea that being in `accord with Dhamma' has anything to do with particular actions we follow or even association or identification with particular states, including jhanas, as the sutta continues to elaborate on, then there is no development of detachment from conditioned realities and no living according to the Dhamma. James: Jhana practice is not equalivent to the types of `rites and rituals' described in this sutta. Jhana practice can lead to purification of the mind, as taught by the Buddha, while these other ascetic practices will not. You are comparing apples and oranges and saying they are the same (Bait and switch: Sales technique). Metta, James Ps. BTW, I support the development of jhana because the Buddha taught it, not because it specifically reflects my own practice. I have spent years meditating but I only did vipassana practice (believing secondary sources that jhana practice is dangerous without reading the suttas for myself…very stupid on my part!) With my new practice, I doubt that I have even come close to achieving the first jhana…so I don't claim to be a `jhana master' by any means. 41265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hello Philip, very well expressed. I should have added something to my post. So long as we have not reached stages of insight we do not clearly know nama and rupa, we know them by name. Some dhammas we find easier to accept intellectually than others. Such as lobha, dosa, we all have. Seeing or hardness, they are real, though they are not known yet through insight. We can experience them but we do not penetrate their true nature yet. For one person bhavanga may be harder to accept, for another rupakkhandha, for another D.O. or the stages of enlightenment, and this is very understandable. We are different, with different accumulations. The idea of patient acquiescence, dhammanijjhaanakkhanti, is beneficial. It reminds us that we cannot understand all at once. It helps us to correct our attitude, and we all need this kind of patience. Listening again and again helps us. I rendered to Azita what I heard on tape about mind-door and bhavanga from Kh Sujin, but perhaps your computer was off? Can you find it in the recent messages? Or if you have more Q on bhavanga, Kh Sujin explains a lot on the MP3 I am hearing. You are welcome. Nina. op 24-01-2005 04:57 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I may have misinterpreted this, but it seems important and > encouraging for me in my Abhidhamma studies. There is so much there > that must be swallowed whole, if you will. If I try to confirm > empirically whether there are bhavanga cittas or not, for example, I > won't get anywhere. It helps to believe in very subtle/sublime > dhammas whole-heartedly, even before we can possibly know them to be > true. It seems to me that this is the only way for beginners to > approach Abhidhamma - otherwise we get stuck in an excess of rational > investigation. 41266 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, Glad for your further comments on any of these points: #DT40542 "The middle 5 javana cittas are so strong that the kamma that arises because of these middle cittas is able to give rise to effect or result for the whole samsara……from the third life…. So strong are those 5 middle javana cittas that they do carry the potentials or kamma along with each and every rising citta." S: I know what you mean and we've discussed the different javana cittas. The potential or accumulation is also carried by each citta as you say, but, as we've discussused, not all javana cittas are capable of bringing results - only when kamma patha factors are present as I understand. So I don't know that we can make such a blanket statement. ….. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, I think we have discussed about this before. I do not think that is the blanket. You quote kamma patha factor. What I believe is that all javana cittas if they are not kiriya cittas they do have kamma production. Even in ordinary thinking if it is lobha or dosa or moha related akusala thinking citta, that thinking does have kamma production. There are many ordinary vipaka cittas arise in daily life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: #mass destruction 40597 "Maha-karuna was so great that even after pasing away (mahaparinibbana) it was still working…" You then give the account of when MahaKassapa comes to Kusinara and how the feet of the Buddha came out to touch him on the forehead. … S: There's lots more detail in the comy to the Mahaparinibbana sutta and the power of MahaKassapa's resolve. (I know there is lots of other detail in later texts),.but I don't think we can talk about the Buddha's karuna here!! [In Kusinara on our recent trip, I found it so special to bow low at the feet of the statue and sit there for a while….it was hard for me to move away]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just included karuna as a side-track. It worths another thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Also, all the detail about the distribuition of relics into eight is given in the commentary in a lot of detail. I'm not sure the comments you gave about the distribution are correct(??) You wrote about the river and the enemies on each side and the stopping of the war. I don't see this at a glance in the sutta or commentary. ….. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding relics 'Mahaparinibbana suttas' and commentaries will tell you more. I just forgot the name of the river. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Concepts & Qus discussion with TG & Howard S:I understood what TG and Howard were saying in this case about Culapanthaka - even the simplest instructions involve concepts. Also he's listened to Abhidhamma in previous lives and to his brother in this life, even if he had kept missing the point or not been able to retain any detail. As they said, we use concepts for communication. Of course, he directly understood the paramattha dhammas involved. No dispute about that! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. TG , Howard and others in that thread are all good. It would be a matter of wording. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sara continued: You mentioned that `idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalent. I couldn't follow you. Anyway, it was a good discussion you all had. Unlike TG, I think it's essential to understand the difference between concepts and realities, but he knows that;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said that because 'idea' is more than naming. 1 and 1 makes 2. 1 is naming. 'and' is naming. 'makes' is another name. 2 is also a name. So the whole sentence is full of names. There is no '1' as paramattha dhamma. And nor other words 'and' 'makes' and '2'. But that sentence carries idea. That idea penetrates what it should. If you do not have panna or wisdom then you will not know that '1 and 1 makes 2'. That idea '1 and 1 makes 2' is part of panna. That is why I said 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: I have some other comments, but maybe later. In the DT series, I think you need to keep giving lots of repetition and explanation. It helps a lot when you explain the Pali terms as well. We always have beginners or those who are new to the list as well. Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will stick to. Thanks Sarah for your kind comments and all the support including computer assistence that you organized Kom to helped me. With respect, Htoo Naing 41267 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (242) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 'bhumi catukka' or in 'four kinds of bhumi or realm' there are 31 realms. These 4 kinds are 1. apaya bhumis or woeful planes of existence 2. kama sugati bhumis or sensuous planes of existence 3. rupa bhumis or rupa brahma realms or fine-material realms 4. arupa bhumis or arupa brahma realms or immaterial realms Apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existences are 1. niriya bhumi or hell realms 2. tiracchanna bhumi or animal realms 3. peta bhumi or hungry ghost realms 4. asurakaya bhumi or demon realms As soon as reaches these bhumis the first citta in these bhumis or realm is patisandhi citta and this citta is only one kind. It is 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta'. Upekkha means 'indifferent feeling' here. Saha means 'along with' 'at the same time' 'in parallel with' and gata means 'to go'. Ahetuka means 'no hetu or no root dhamma'. This citta is vipaka citta. Niraya means 'far away from good thing, wholesome things, happy thing'. tiracchanna is made up of 'ti' 'channa or chandha'. So animals are those who have 3 wishes. They are 1.to sleep or rest, 2.to eat, 3.to have sex. Tiracchanna the word basically derived from these words even though there are some exceptions regarding chandhas or wishes. There are many hell stations like there are many countries all over the world. There are many animal worlds. There are many peta worlds. And there are many asurakaya worlds. Dibbacakku will be able to see all these sattas in their respective realms. All these 4 apaya bhumis or all these 4 woeful planes of existence have the same kind of linking consciousness or patisandhi citta. It is 'upekkha santirana citta of akusala vipaka'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41268 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:13pm Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 b Pilgrimage India 3 b Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a time. When there is understanding of visible object as a dhamma experienced through the eyesense, there can be correct thinking of it. At such a moment we do not pay attention to the image of a whole or the details. When we are dreaming it seems that we see people and things, but in a dream our eyes are closed and we do not see, there is no visible object impinging on the eyesense. We merely remember what was seen before. Visible object has completely gone and what is left is only an image or concept we think of. Also when we are awake we often live as it were in a dream. Time and again it seems that we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, we are usually lost in thinking about people and events. But Dhamma is our island when we can begin to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa. As the Buddha said in the ³Mahå-Parinibbåna sutta² : be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge...² The Buddha taught us the Dhamma so that we can develop our own understanding. It is essential to know the difference between the moments when we are lost in thinking of concepts and when there is awareness of just one characteristic appearing through one doorway at a time. When awareness arises the characteristic of the reality that appears at the present moment is the object of awareness, and in this way one knows the difference between a moment of awareness and a moment without awareness. **** Nina. 41269 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Ken H: > KH : On the other hand, neither self-deprecation nor conceit is > kusala, and they cannot lead to enlightenment. > > KH: So, when you said "Conceit . . . is a great danger. At the same time > you need confidence and strength to walk the path," I don't think > you meant a little bit of conceit could be a good thing. Did you? No, it's not a good thing. But even anagamis still have it, that's how powerful it is. So sotapannas still have it in bunches and so even worse for normal people. The danger of confidence and strength is it can easily lead to conceit. But one can realize the danger and still have faith in the path without going overboard. I just don't think "we don't know anything" is a good stance. > KH: 'observation > of conventional reality' really is a part of the way. I know in the > Tipitaka, for example, a housewife attained enlightenment when she > realised she had burnt the curry, but I wonder if the Buddha > recommended 'mindfulness of curry.' I don't think so. Many other > teachers would recommend mindfulness of curry, but the Buddha's > teaching was always profound. It was always about absolute Kel: No but understanding the convential truth is what leads to higher understanding of the absolute truth. As an example, one of my teachers keep telling us to observe the mind. He said once it's really pure, all the associated intense vedana will fall away. I thought my mind looks pure, and repeated observation wasn't doing anything to vedana. Then one day I was sweeping the floor of dhamma hall and it looked clean. But after a few strokes, there was a pile of dirt. The more I keep sweeping the dirt keeps accumulating and I understood what the teacher meant then. It just looks clean to my untrained eye but repeated observing is same as repeated sweeping and hopefully slowly cleaning the dirt in the mind. I'm just saying for me that's how I understood the teaching with a convential example. > > Kel: There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's > just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to > change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow > backwards so can only alter the future course. > ------------------------- > > I'm not so sure about the river analogy. The present moment can be > properly understood as being part of a continuous stream of moments - > there have been moments in the past and there will be moments in the > future - but no actual stream of moments exists. > > You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question' but we Kel: You can give a river a name and it exists. There's a definite path it takes. But ask if it's the SAME river then the answer is no as its always in a flux. If a snapshot can be taken in time and space of the river and ask if it exists then it most certainly does. > Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn > the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) > cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise > instead. > -------------- > I know cetana is a universal cetasika and so, without it, there can > be no consciousness at all. But I'm not at all sure of what you are > saying here. Kel: I'm saying the difference between kusala and akusala vithis are in the javana cittas and the cause of it is volition. > If there are the conditions (including the accumulated tendency) for > kusala citta to arise in the given circumstances, then it will > arise. But there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can > be willed to arise. Kel: There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be predestined. > ---------------------------------- > Kel: > It's setting up conditions for a positive future without > attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. > -------------------------------- > Well maybe it is in effect, but the teaching is to know the present > reality. It is not to have concern for the future. Kel: Because knowing the present moment leads to no attachment of a particular future. Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything? > We need a thorough understanding of Abhidhamma before we can > understand suttas. Kel: Don't think so. Otherwise Buddha would've taught the technical details to disciples instead of suttas. > I understand the Buddha's teaching always applies to the present > moment. If the present moment is a moment of extreme grief, then > that can be the object of satipatthana. There is no putting it off > until a more convenient time. Putting off will never condition > satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. Kel: The point is when akusala is at full power, it's like trying to stop a moving train. You'll just crushed instead. You need to stop it in the beginning when the momentum is low or before it even starts. A proper practice will prevent it from gaining full power. Once it's there, only time will dissipate it. - kel 41270 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Sarah, No problem, I know you have to read things from beginning. I think you asked why I keep posting about the topic, only because replies were directed to me. I'm a technical person and so I will respond to what I feel are opinion pieces stated as facts. But I guess the topic has ran it's course for me so I'll just leave it at that. - Kel 41271 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. Hi RobertK > Dear Kel, > So have all of Mr. Goenka's teachers have naturally given up sensual > desire? If they have why do they need to take a vow, or are you > assuming they do? > I haven't read of all serious laypeople doing that in the Buddha's > time, but I only know a few texts. Kel: They take a vow but I don't know the details. Let's be clear though, it's just sexual relations not sensual desire or pleasures as a whole. To me it's like taking percepts as we do in Burma, it's only as deep as the person wants make it to be. As for his assistant teachers, they pretty much devote their lives to it. When they're not conducting courses, they'll doing their own courses. So I'm assuming they must be committed enough to do it. Of course with any big organizations, you hear about a few that goes on power trips or what not. Everything I say would be assumptions unless I can read minds. In the city of Kuru during Buddha's time, all the citizens practice satipatthana supposedly. For uposatha days, a lot of Burmese take the 8 percepts and that includes sensual pleasures. It depends if they're following it for mental actions or not too I would think. Most I'm sure barely do it for physical or verbal if even. The percepts are mostly designed to improve one's practice anyway. - kel 41272 From: Philip Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 88 - Volition/cetanaa (r) Hi all I've fallen behind in the Cetasikas corner. I'd like to try these questions. > i There is cetan?Ealso when we are sound asleep. What is its > function at such a moment? Co-ordinating the other cetasikas to help them to perform their functions. Cetana has a kind of double funciton sometimes co- ordinating, sometimes being the volition that is kamma. > ii When we observe sú‰a what is the function of cetan?E That would be wholesome (kusala) kamma, I guess. > > iii Which cetasika is akusala kamma or kusala kamma? Cetana (volition.) Is that a trick question? > iv How can a deed performed in the past produce a result later > on? Because they are accumulated with each citta. This is the point that I still have trouble understanding, no matter how often Nina explains it to me. I still see cittas completely falling away, so don't know how anything can be accumulated. But that's OK. Conditions and accumulations make it easier for us to understand some points and less easy to understand others. I will take this on faith. It's not necessary to understand everything rationally. If we insist on doing so, we won't get anywhere. > v What kind of result can be produced by akusala kamma > patha (unwholesome course of action) which is completed? > vi What are the other forms of vipåka produced by kamma, > apart from rebirth-consciousness? These two questions look the same to me. Vipaka can be in the form of rebirth-consciousness or it can come through many moments of seeing, hearing and the other six door sense objects in daily life, though our lifetime. The "completed" above means that many of the necessary conditions have been fulfilled to make it kamma patha. Otherwise wholeseome and unwholesome deeds of mind, speech and action are accumlated and lead to accumulated tendencies (anusayas) but not vipaka because they are not "completed" by the fulfillment of conditions that will make them kamma patha (?) > vii What is the effect of the accumulation of tendencies to good > and evil? The tendencies become deeper and thicker and more difficult to eradicate? And they can reappear at unpredictable times when the conditions are right. For example, we can feel quite proud and confident about having made progress on the surface, but the tendencies are there and we will get many rude reminders in life that there is deep, deep clinging and they are very difficult to eradicate. There is the simile of the cloth. You can wash it and get the visible stains out, but the smell of dung clings subtly. > > viii When we laugh is there akusala citta? I would guess there usually is. There is usually lobha involved. But there can be the arising of wholesome laughter as well. > ix When we are daydreaming can there be akusala citta? How could there be anything but? Daydream is a form of longing for things to be different than they are. That is lobha. I wouldn't call reflection on Dhamma, on the Buddha "daydreaming." But I think such reflections, if they arise in a natural way, are the only form of applied thinking that don't involve some form, even very subtle, of lobha. > x What are the conditions for kusala citta to arise more often? Hearing the Dhamma, discussion with good friends. Appreciation of kusala citta when it arises, if it arises, in daily life. We fail to appreciate the importance rare moments of wholesomeness and cling to more dramatic results, but the moments of kusala cittas (often in the form of abstaining from unwholesome thoughts, speech, deeds) condition the arising of more, sooner or later, if we are patient. Please comment or provide correction, all. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 41273 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Howard, Thanks for your reply: ----------------------- > Howard: How can there be eating when there is no being who can eat? How could there have been the Dhamma taught when there was no Buddha to teach it, no beings to have been taught, and no thing that is the Dhamma? > ------------------------- I agree that these are the right questions, and I have offered some answers many times, but how do your answers differ from mine? -------------------------- H: > Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. ------------------ I agree with that. However, you are talking about levels of discourse: you still haven't answered your questions. ------------------------------- H: > Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut- abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the reality, and they are not confused. ------------------------------ Fair enough! But we are coming to the iffy bit now: ----------------- H: > Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. ------------------ This is where I can help you! You think the Buddha taught a conventional Dhamma practice. By way of example, you might say that riding a bike can be learnt by getting on, falling off, getting on, falling off, until bike riding skills have been developed. But that analogy does not fit with 'conventional Dhamma practice.' Bike riding cannot be learnt by practising calligraphy (for example). And that is what you are, in effect, suggesting when you say that formal meditation develops real meditation (bhavana). Formal meditation is to bhavana as calligraphy is to bike riding, or as chalk is to cheese. Ruling out formal meditation, the question remains: Is there a practice of some sort that leads to satipatthana? The nearest thing would be 'kusala consciousness in which the Dhamma is heard, explained and considered.' But that, too, has to be correctly understood! ---------------------- H: > Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. ---------------------- I'd agree with that except for one thing: The people you are referring to know that 'mulling over their intellectual understanding' can be wrongly understood. Certainly, it is what the Buddha taught (unlike formal meditation, which he did not teach) but there is no self who can do it. If we have wrong understanding (belief in control over dhammas), as we practise *formal* mulling- over, then we are going backwards. --------------------------- H: > In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is acting". ---------------------------- No, those people pay *great* attention to, "there is acting." If there is acting but no actor then there must be some profound meaning to the word "acting" that only a Buddha can teach. Perhaps we need to mull over our understanding of the cetasika, cetana. It is the conditioned nama that performs the function of willing (including willing to act), and it bears the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. In the rest of your post you discuss the nature of cetana. I think you give it too much credit (with regard to possible Path functions), but that is no great problem. Discussing and learning about paramattha dhammas is what we are here for (I think). Ken H 41274 From: Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 3 b Nina: "Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a time." Hi Nina, I agree this is the way experience seems, so what is experience? According to the texts reality actually works quite differently. Many cetasikas arise at the same time and perform their functions [I wonder if we could say instead 'express themselves'.] At any rate we never experience most of these cetasikas. This suggests to me that reality is not an object of panna because panna can have only one object at a time, but in reality many dhammas arise at a time. However, that is a side issue. I'm mostly interested in what is experience. If experience is consciousness how do we experience the cetasikas? If experience is consciousness and an object do we experience both at the same time? Larry 41275 From: Hugo Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Back to the list, sharing experiences. I took some time off from the list and "took with me" some topics that popped up during my participation in this and other mailing lists. Some new questions arose and even some old questions came up again looking for a revisit. I share with you some of the interesting things I found after having visited 3 Buddhist temples (besides the one I normally visit), spoken with 3 monks (besides my teacher), read 1.5 books and many web-published articles/books, meditate, reflect and live my everyday household life. I will create different threads as to keep topics "contained" and make it easier to follow up and discuss. Greetings, -- Hugo 41276 From: Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/24/05 6:58:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your reply: > > ----------------------- > >Howard: How can there be eating when there is no being who can > eat? How could there have been the Dhamma taught when there was no > Buddha to teach it, no beings to have been taught, and no thing that > is the Dhamma? > > ------------------------- > > I agree that these are the right questions, and I have offered some > answers many times, but how do your answers differ from mine? ----------------------------------------- Howard: My answer follows in the remainder of my post, in discussing two truths, the conventional and the ultimate, with the ultimate truth underlying the conventional truth. ---------------------------------------- > > -------------------------- > H: >Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of > discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, > and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the > usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such > speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. > ------------------ > > I agree with that. However, you are talking about levels of > discourse: you still haven't answered your questions. > > ------------------------------- > H: >Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut- > abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of > the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality > overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the > reality, and they are not confused. > ------------------------------ > > Fair enough! But we are coming to the iffy bit now: > > ----------------- > H: >Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying > reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the > Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. > ------------------ > > This is where I can help you! You think the Buddha taught a > conventional Dhamma practice. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I sure do. ---------------------------------- By way of example, you might say that > > riding a bike can be learnt by getting on, falling off, getting on, > falling off, until bike riding skills have been developed. But that > analogy does not fit with 'conventional Dhamma practice.' > > Bike riding cannot be learnt by practising calligraphy (for > example). And that is what you are, in effect, suggesting when you > say that formal meditation develops real meditation (bhavana). > Formal meditation is to bhavana as calligraphy is to bike riding, or > as chalk is to cheese. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. The Buddha taught and urged meditation. He taught mindfulness of breathing, the use of kasinas, metta meditation, and the mastery of the jhanas. ------------------------------------- > > Ruling out formal meditation, the question remains: Is there a > practice of some sort that leads to satipatthana? The nearest thing > would be 'kusala consciousness in which the Dhamma is heard, > explained and considered.' But that, too, has to be correctly > understood! -------------------------------------- Howard: Right here you are turning the Dhamma into a form of gnani yoga. You are rewriting the Dhamma. There is no way in the world that the Buddha taught merely to listen to his teachings and think about them. -------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > H: >Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying > reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there > are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do > nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. > ---------------------- > > I'd agree with that except for one thing: The people you are > referring to know that 'mulling over their intellectual > understanding' can be wrongly understood. Certainly, it is what the > Buddha taught (unlike formal meditation, which he did not teach) but > there is no self who can do it. If we have wrong understanding > (belief in control over dhammas), as we practise *formal* mulling- > over, then we are going backwards. > ------------------------------ Howard: I have no clue as to what formal mulling over is supposed to be. For that matter, I don't know what *formal* meditation is either. There is just meditation, IMO. ------------------------------ > > --------------------------- > H: >In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring > their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being > to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect > that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure > at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but > there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is > acting". > ---------------------------- > > No, those people pay *great* attention to, "there is acting." If > there is acting but no actor then there must be some profound > meaning to the word "acting" that only a Buddha can teach. > ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't get the profundity other than there being no actor. Are you afraid that maybe there is? Do you find it hard to conceive of action without an actor? I do not. I don't think there is an actor, or thinker, or doer, or agent of any sort. ---------------------------------- > > Perhaps we need to mull over our understanding of the cetasika, > cetana. It is the conditioned nama that performs the function of > willing (including willing to act), and it bears the > characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. > ------------------------------------ Howard: It *is* willing, and it is an event that occurs - a phenomenon. And it is indeed impermanent, unsatisfying and unworthy of being clung to, and impersonal. So? ------------------------------------- > > In the rest of your post you discuss the nature of cetana. I think > you give it too much credit (with regard to possible Path > functions), but that is no great problem. Discussing and learning > about paramattha dhammas is what we are here for (I think). ----------------------------------------- Howard: I think we are here to learn the tilakkhana in all dhammas, and to learn to let go. ----------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41277 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, You wrote: -------------------- > Ken, I agree with Howard. The disagreement you have possibly stems from the diametrically different viewpoint - paramattha desana (explanation true in the highest sense) versus vohara desana (conventional exposition). > -------------------- No, Tep, there is no disagreement over means of expression. But the Dhamma expresses profound truths. I am saying we must not reject profound truth, which we don't really understand, in favour of conventional truth, which we do understand. For example, when the Buddha said "Meditate," he meant "Directly experience a present paramattha dhamma with right understanding." That is a profoundly difficult thing to do. On the other hand, sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, dukkha and anatta is easy. There are many meditation teachers who want us to throw out the difficult version and replace it with the easy one. ----------------------------- T: > Do the people 'who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" 'believe in right effort (samma-vayama)? ------------------------------ Yes. In many suttas, the Buddha's language is indistinguishable from the language of other teachers: If we are not careful - if we forget our Abhidhamma - we can be convinced he was promoting conventional wisdom. In one instance (as you will know), he was speaking to a jhana meditator whose daily routine included walking back and forth. Many people would swear that the Buddha was saying right effort was a simple matter of not walking too much (making the feet bleed) and not walking too little (taking it easy). But Abhidhamma scholars know that the world is nothing more than a single citta, a small number of cetasikas and a smaller number of rupas. It could only have been one of those cetasikas (samma-vayama) that the Buddha was describing and promoting. Samma-vayama does not arise in a citta that contains eternity view ("walks too much"), nor in one that contains annihilation view ("walks too little" (or is it the other way around?)): it arises in a citta with right view - samma-ditthi- cetasika of the Middle Way. Ken H 41278 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:53pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Sukinder - Welcome back to the forum. Yes, you are "quite behind' regarding the discussion here that has branched out into several directions already. However, I'll try to respond to your questions as well as I can. Sukin: But maybe it is us who are on say, the left, and so even someone in the middle would appear right, no? But I think this is because our understanding of the Buddha's Teachings is still quite superficial and the way we consider it is mostly philosophical and often speculative. This is so even when we have come to the conclusion that `direct experience' is what matters as against `intellectual appreciation'. Tep: Since your understanding of the Teachings is still quite superficial, then how can you understand what the "direct experience" is? Don't you think you must first start with some "intellectual appreciation" of the Dhamma through reading the texts? First thing first, right? Sukin: The common Thai usage of the word `patipatti' for instance, means `sitting practice', but this is not the meaning of the Pali. In Pali it is equivalent to a moment of `satipatthana', and in this there is no `person' who is doing any sitting practice. Tep: I don't think the Thai monks and lay people are misled like you said, Sukin. Most Thais understand that 'patipatti' means the practice of the Buddha's Teachings, and it consists of dana, sila, and bhavana. In bhavana they do both samatha and vipassana. Further, sitting and walking meditations are included in the bhavana. Sukin: The question of `how to practice' is I think misplaced. There are only conditioned realities, some of which point to the wrong direction and some to the right. Appreciating the value of those dhammas that are positive is itself, positive. And if indeed there is any appreciation of the anatta and other conditioned nature of these same dhammas, then other positive dhammas may arise, like samvega, patience and courage. Tep: Is the act of "appreciating the value" of the "conditioned realities" same as contemplation of the their three characteristics(ti-lakkhana) when you are alone? (it doesn't matter whether you are sitting or not) Or, is it just some kind of casual reflection on the Dhamma while going through your daily life activities? Sukin: There is certainly no call for `sitting' nor is there any `reason' to `deliberately look'. From the stand point of someone who believes in "doing" something, this will be perceived as thinking, "Let be, let it be" in a fatalistic way, but samvega and khanti are accompanied by viriya too, no? Tep: How strong is your viriya during a practice? Is it strong enough to be Right exertion (a Path factor) to develop insight knowledges? Just read the following sutta excerpt to get the idea. Note that it doesn't have to be "fatalistic"! "There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions. "Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines to the east, in the same way when a monk develops & pursues the four right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to Unbinding. -- SN XLIX.1 Sukin: The only real obstacle to satipatthana is miccha ditthi and one manifestation of this is the idea of `formal sitting' or that "Panna comes from "deliberate cultivation"". Panna does indeed require `development', in Thai `charoen', however this has nothing to do with what we understand by `intention' or `deliberateness'. Tep: Part of the above sutta quote is "monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ...". All these words (desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, uphold and exert intention) points to "deliberate cultivation". Note that cultivation is the same as development (look it up in a dictionary yourself). The word deliberate implies something is done by choice, or intention, and that its consequences are clearly understood. Further, the four right exertions above show clearly that the monk has an intention, a purpose to develop and culminate his arisen skillful qualities (kusala dhammas) towards Nibbana (as the goal). I think you are talking about the one who is able to "know and see things the way they really are", not about the mind of a worldling who has not reahed that state. Before getting "there" you need "an act of will" with right exertions; once there, no need for intention. "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are". [Anguttara Nikaya XI.2 Cetana Sutta] By the way, how would you, a worldling, develop Panna without intention? Intention and othe nama dhammas like exertions are like the raft that one uses to cross a river (attainment of lokuttara panna). But when the river is crossed, there is no need for the raft anymore. Sukin: We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather "panna" in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of `self', `other' and `activity', then even this is wrong. Tep: Sure, you have to have "panna" in the present moment in order to talk with friends and understand what they are talking to you, Sukin. But this is not the wisdom that penetrates the Noble Truths. So you are still unable to eradicate the personality views, regardless of what you think about your panna. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Howard and Ken O, > ... ... ... ... ... > Enough for now. Excuse me for the bluntness, today I am feeling O.K. > after six days of feeling quite unwell, implication; I read some of > the posts here with irritation. > :-) > > Metta, > Sukin. 41279 From: Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/24/05 10:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > On the other hand, > sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, > dukkha and anatta is easy. There are many meditation teachers who > want us to throw out the difficult version and replace it with the > easy one. > ====================== That's a straw man, Ken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41280 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken H. - Thank you for originating the discussion about the two different ways of practice: the conventional way (wrong?) and the Abhidhamma way (right?). This series of dicussion is worthwhile. KH : when the Buddha said "Meditate," he meant "Directly experience a present paramattha dhamma with right understanding." That is a profoundly difficult thing to do. On the other hand, sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, dukkha and anatta is easy. T: It is profoundly difficult because that end-product of "direct seeing and knowing" is not a castle built in the air, it requires several stages of development starting from solid Sila to nama-rupa-pariccheda nana and beyond. But there are many real stories of those virtuous monks who could achieve this insight knowledge from samatha-vipassana and contemplation of the ti-lakkhana of the five aggregates (panca khandha). The contemplation is, of course, not some idle thinking of the three characteristics. KH: In many suttas, the Buddha's language is indistinguishable from the language of other teachers: If we are not careful - if we forget our Abhidhamma - we can be convinced he was promoting conventional wisdom. T: I think Howard and I have stressed that conventional wisdom is necessarey while one is training toward sotapatti-magga-nana. I doubt it very much if anyone can start right away at seeing and knowing the Paramattha dhamma, i.e. bypassing the conventional way. It is just purely illogical to me. KH: But Abhidhamma scholars know that the world is nothing more than a single citta, a small number of cetasikas and a smaller number of rupas. It could only have been one of those cetasikas (samma- vayama) that the Buddha was describing and promoting. Samma- vayama does not arise in a citta that contains eternity view ("walks too much"), nor in one that contains annihilation view ("walks too little" (or is it the other way around?)): it arises in a citta with right view - samma- ditthi-cetasika of the Middle Way. T: In the following sutta, the Buddha described how the Path factors work together toward the insight knowledge penetration. The language is based on the conventional truth (vohara-sacca) and it is clear to a worldling like me. Why didn't he use the Abhidhamma language? "The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? "Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. ... ... ... ... "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the Arahant with ten. From ... Majjhima Nikaya 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, The Great Forty Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > You wrote: > -------------------- > > Ken, I agree with Howard. The disagreement you have possibly > stems from the diametrically different viewpoint - paramattha desana > (explanation true in the highest sense) versus vohara desana > (conventional exposition). > > -------------------- > (snipped) > > Ken H 41281 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:17pm Subject: The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? A curious & puzzled friend asked: What are the 10 questions where Buddha kept silence ? Buddha did not answer these 10 questions: Why not ? Because they are indeterminable & thus rightly unanswerable. Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. Because they thus obstruct & destroy the only Way to Final Peace. What are the 10 Indeterminable Questions ? 1: Is the Universe Finite ? 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? 5: Is the Vitality of Life the same as the Body ? 6: Is the Vitality of Life different from the Body ? 7: Do a Well-Gone-One exist after Death ? 8: Do a Well-Gone-One not exist after Death ? 9: Do a Well-Gone-One both exist & not exist after Death ? 10: Do a Well-Gone-One neither exist nor not exist after Death ? Questions like these are based on false a priori assumption & are absurd & thus wrongly formulated. Bertran Russel gave another good example of these logic traps: Is the French King bald ? Initially the question seems to point to absence of hair, yet closer analysis reveal that since there exist no French King now so how can he ever be bald or anything else for that matter ... ;-) Also there the Buddha would have kept silence... Hehehe : - ] Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka 41282 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:53pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 107 - Concentration/ekaggataa (c) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** When we speak about an årammaùa, an object, we have to specify which kind of årammaùa. There is visible object which is known through the eye-door. There is sound which is known through the ear-door. Smell, taste and tactile object are known through their appropriate sense-doors. Through the mind-door all these objects can be known as well. Everything which is real and also concepts and ideas, which are not real in the absolute sense, can be known through the mind-door. Thus we see that the word 'object' in the Abhidhamma has a very precise meaning. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41283 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, Somehow the gist of my message got lost in the storm, but thank you for your well-written analogy none the less. Let me take the liberty of spelling out that gist once more in simple terms . No need to 'buy' it, I assure you. 1.Before we fantasise about Porsches and Ferraris (ways of attaining nibbana), let's see if we need to learn to walk first in baby steps (learn about namas and rupas). 2.When we've got a little more idea about making these baby steps, even though we may well still be at the toddler stage (wobbly and occasional arising of sati only), we need to start learning about left and right (the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states) and how to cross the road at the zebra crossing, traffic lights or with the assistance of the 'lollipop lady'*(develop satipatthana, samatha and all kinds of kusala). 3.If we find ourselves dreaming about the various cars we may drive when we grow up, that's fine, as long as we know we're just dreaming and don't get into one of them and turn the ignition switch. That could be very dangerous.(strong wrong views about attainments lead to many problems). 4.Who knows? By the time we really look like having some kind of choice about purchasing a Porsche, a Ferrari or one of those inferior, uncomfortable used cars, we may even find out that the choice is purely imaginary and that conditions such as budget, availability, family demands rule (all conditioned dhammas, including jhana states, are sankhara and anatta - so no need to be concerned about making the right decision, James). Metta, Sarah p.s I also 'support the development of jhana'. We differ in how we understand the development of samatha which may or may not eventually lead to jhana, however. No, I'm not making difficult sacrifices or having 'painful sitting in meditation',but then I believe the development of any kind of kusala (with calm naturally) is light, free of torment and not about beating oneself up in anyway. The Middle Path. *just English terminology - the lollipop lady used to help us school children cross the road, holding a big round STOP sign to traffic . ======================================== 41284 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to the list, sharing experiences. Hi Hugo, Good to see you back, just as you indicated (end of Jan), I believe. Now you're someone who knows all about training toddlers to walk and cross roads (I loved your bicycle analogy before), so I look forward to all your threads (new or second-hand;-). You've obviously been considering a lot in your absence. Metta, Sarah p.s Happy New Year to you and your family! --- Hugo wrote: > > > I took some time off from the list and "took with me" some topics that > popped up during my participation in this and other mailing lists. > Some new questions arose and even some old questions came up again > looking for a revisit. 41285 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ straw men Hi Howard, --------------------------------------- KH: > > . . . how do your answers differ from mine? > > > Howard: > My answer follows in the remainder of my post, in discussing two truths, the conventional and the ultimate, with the ultimate truth underlying the conventional truth. > ---------------------------------------- Maybe I don't try hard enough to understand your point of view. You probably find that frustrating and you accuse me of putting up straw men. I know how you feel! :-) ------------------------------------- KH: > > Formal meditation is to bhavana as calligraphy is to bike riding, or as chalk is to cheese. > > Howard: > I disagree. The Buddha taught and urged meditation. He taught mindfulness of breathing, the use of kasinas, metta meditation, and the mastery of the jhanas. ------------------------------------- You say, " The Buddha taught and urged meditation," as if I have been denying he taught and urged bhavana (samatha and vipassana). Have you not been reading my posts, or was that a deliberate straw man? You say, "He taught mindfulness of breathing" as if I have been denying there are suttas on Anapanasati. I know they are there - we have discussed them a hundred times - but you and I have very different interpretations of those suttas. The same goes for kasinas? I know they get a mention in the Tipitaka, although, as with breathing meditation, there are no actual instructions. (The instructions are in the Commentaries.) And 'metta meditation' and 'the mastery of jhanas' - I have never denied them: I believe they are conditioned moments of consciousness. The thing I deny is the efficacy of mimicking them by reproducing their outward, conventional, appearance. These straw men can be annoying can't they? :-) -------------------------------------- Howard: > Right here you are turning the Dhamma into a form of gnani yoga. You are rewriting the Dhamma. There is no way in the world that the Buddha taught merely to listen to his teachings and think about them. -------------------------------------- A straw man if ever there was one! "The Buddha taught satipatthana and only satipatthana." I have been saying that with monotonous regularity and I have been ridiculed for doing so (most notably by the person calling himself "Nutcracker"). The Buddha taught satipatthana and only satipatthana: he did not teach listening and thinking. They are not the Middle Way. If there is listening, then listening can be known with right understanding (satipatthana) - as is always the case with the present moment. The same goes for "wise consideration" and "association with good friends." According to the Buddha, they are THE conditioning factors for satipatthana, and I think (not sure) that they can be directly known 'as conditions' (in a moment of satipatthana). But I repeat; he didn not teach listening and wise consideration: he taught satipatthana. ------------------------------ Howard: > I have no clue as to what formal mulling over is supposed to be. For that matter, I don't know what *formal* meditation is either. There is just meditation, IMO. ------------------------------ In that case, I'd like to explain "formal" again. It is the idea, as opposed to the genuine momentary reality, of bhavana (or of wise consideration). It is a mere concept, and, as such, it has no conditioning power in absolute reality. ---------------------------------- Howard: > I don't get the profundity other than there being no actor. Are you afraid that maybe there is? Do you find it hard to conceive of action without an actor? I do not. I don't think there is an actor, or thinker, or doer, or agent of any sort. ---------------------------------- Of course I find it hard! Do you think right understanding is simple? Normally that would be a ridiculous question, but I ask it with some seriousness after learning that James, and others, think enlightenment is simple (at least to the stage of Stream-entry). Regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 1/24/05 10:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > On the other hand, > > sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, > > dukkha and anatta is easy. There are many meditation teachers who > > want us to throw out the difficult version and replace it with the > > easy one. > > > ====================== > That's a straw man, Ken. > > With metta, > Howard 41286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 0:45am Subject: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Htoo, #40690, DT219 You wrote several very useful (but v.difficult) posts on clear and faint objects etc. As Nina knows, I get confused with the very greats and the greats and the translations vary too, so sometimes it's not clear (to me) whether we're talking about sense door or mind door objects out of context (but you provide the context). Now you mention a few times (and I'm sure you're right) that 'actually these objects do not have to be very clear or clear or faint or very faint. It is the arising of vithi cittas and their number..' As you say, if there is no cakkhu vatthu, there cannot be any visual object experienced and so on. Now,does the clarity just depend on the number? Surely it also depends on other factors such as light, the nature of that vatthu (blind person, for example) and so on? In the mind door process, we know that lokuttara cittas are 'absorbed' because of the nature of the object (nibbana) to give an obvious example…..??? ….. #40779 DT222 Several times you say vipaka cittas arise 'RIGHTLY' but javana cittas may vary. I follow you and I like the Burmese expression 'Vipaka's right, javana may not be right'. You gave an example of how smelling or seeing rotten flesh is definitely a disagreeable object or see or hear about a disaster. I discussed this topic before with other friends. As a general rule, what you say is correct, but in fact, it depends on the vipaka at that moment whether really anything unpleasant is seen, heard or smelt. Again, I'd be wary of such 'blanket' or definite rules. Similarly, when it comes to golden images or even a Buddha statue, it would depend on the result of kamma at that very moment of seeing or touching, whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. For most people, I agree - that's why we read these examples in the texts. ….. #40782 DT223 You continue with this topic and say that if it is a highly agreeable object, the next javana cittas will all be mahakusala or mahakiriya, followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana. Are you sure this is true? Ah, you go on to say there are some exceptional cases. Devadatta, surely. But still, you may be right (that the immediately following javana cittas would have to be kusala and it is only the following series of javanas that are full of hatred. I'd need to see the textual refs on this. I may check sometime too. …. #40842. DT225 My biggest 'problem' or disagreement to date with anything in your great series has been on jhana and kasina kamatthana. For example, here you talk again about 'look into the whole circle' etc. Yes, kasina means 'whole', but I believe it has more to do with understanding our attachment to colour (or white in this case) and really understanding the insignificance of colour than it has to do with any concentration of a 'whole circle'. Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? We can look at any white object (or any other colour for that matter) as I see it and begin to learn just a little about the attachment and lack of calm at that moment. This in itself can be a condition for wise reflection and calm and their characteristics can be known as being quite distinct from the usual attachment and restlessness. When it comes to all the details about the processes involved in jhana attainment and so on, I'm very happy to learn from what you write and have no quibbles. (I should say for nearly all the DTs I just learn and have no quibbles and appreciate what you write). I also liked your #40864 DT227 a lot in which you stressed 'classwise lokuttara cittas and rupavacara cittas or arupavacara cittas are totally different. But samadhiwise both kinds of citta have appana Samadhi……….because magga cittas are absorbed in nibbana.' Etc. To be contd Metta, Sarah ===== 41287 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > What I believe is that all javana cittas if they are not kiriya > cittas they do have kamma production. > > Even in ordinary thinking if it is lobha or dosa or moha related > akusala thinking citta, that thinking does have kamma production. > > There are many ordinary vipaka cittas arise in daily life. ... S: We agree they (cetana with javana cittas) are all kamma, but when it comes to 'production' or being capable of bringing results, we do seem to have a different understanding. If as you say, any lobha, dosa or moha related thinking can bring a result by kamma condition, what is the difference between kamma condition and pakatu-upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition)? What is the difference between the round of kilesa and the round of kamma? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I just included karuna as a side-track. It worths another > thread. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. I'm curious to read this thread! ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Regarding relics 'Mahaparinibbana suttas' and commentaries will > tell you more. I just forgot the name of the river. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mentioned it, because I know there have been many, many accounts written which are not in the ancient texts and I wondered about yours. .... > Htoo: > > I said that because 'idea' is more than naming. > > 1 and 1 makes 2. 1 is naming. 'and' is naming. 'makes' is another > name. 2 is also a name. So the whole sentence is full of names. > > There is no '1' as paramattha dhamma. And nor other > words 'and' 'makes' and '2'. > > But that sentence carries idea. That idea penetrates what it should. > > If you do not have panna or wisdom then you will not know that '1 and > 1 makes 2'. > > That idea '1 and 1 makes 2' is part of panna. > > That is why I said 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalents. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I may misunderstand you, but it seems to me that what you call 'idea' here and in #40747 would come under the pannatti umbrella. In brief, if it's not citta, cetasika or rupa, then it's pannatti, wouldn't you agree? If it's not pannatti, what reality is it? You refer there to 'pannindriya cetasikas loaded cittas..', but there is no idea in panna. Understanding can have pannatti as objects, for example when there is wise reflection or the development of samatha, but the ideas are not 'part of pannindriya' (faculty of understanding). Am I missing something you're saying here? Metta, Sarah ===== > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I will stick to. Thanks Sarah for your kind comments and all the > support including computer assistence that you organized Kom to > helped me. .... S: I've forgotten, but you're most welcome and the 'kind comments' are very sincerely meant. I appreciate your contributions a lot. 41288 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, (Howard, Htoo & All), This chat with Htoo about concepts and pannatti and mention of the discussion you and Howard were having with him (which I referred to yesterday) reminded me of a couple of points I'd wished to add to your posts before. As I said to Htoo, I followed your logic more easily than his on the story about Culapandika and also recently referred to a couple of your other posts I liked. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I believe Howard has successfully shown that even in the most extreme > case, a > case that certainly doesn't apply to anyone in this group, concepts > still > played a roll. The incredible roll they play with folks actively > studying Sutta, > Abhidhamma, and related commentaries and subjects; and discussing those > ideas > with others in a group like this ... is virtually incalculable. .... S: Of course I agree here! .... > There are some who have an idea that -- 'concepts don't play any roll in > my > practice.' Now someone may get to that point, but it still has a > foundation > partially built on concepts. ... S: Yes. .... > I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown > yet. > Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to > affect > states. ... S: I don't remember anyone addressing this. I don't believe the 'nonexistent concepts' do have any power. It is the thinking, reflecting, marking and wise or unwhise consideration of them that has the power. Nonexistenct concepts which are not conceptualised are just that - nonexistent concepts. When they are conceptualised, like now, it is only the thinking about them, the particular marking and remembering etc that are real. .. > For myself, I don't think discerning "realities" in the sense of -- > 'what's > more real than something else' is the theme of the Buddha's teaching. I > don't > think he cares if you think concepts are the most real or unreal things > in the > world. I think he wants you to break attachments that lead to > suffering. > Hey...if rubbing a cloth will do the job, that's fine with him! ... S: I understand your point. I think, however, that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things as they are. Why else would he stress the importance of understanding the seeing and the seen, the hearing and the heard and so on for all the senses? Why bother to stress the understanding of the khandhas and on and on? How are the Buddha's teachings different from all other teachings on non-attachment? Is it the rubbing of the cloth that did it or the understanding which penetrated the truths while rubbing the cloth (or burning the curry or changing position....etc)? In another post at about the same time, you referred to the well-known verse about 'form is like a lump of foam' etc and suggested it is also 'a perfectly good way to view concepts as well'. Maybe, but the point of the verse is to point out the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, insubstantiality or non-self surely? Concepts don't have these characteristics, because as you said above they are 'nonexistent'! You mentioned that the Buddha wouldn't have wanted 'a mind...to reify these things as 'ultimate realities'. When we say rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are insubstantial or impermnanent etc, how are they reified? Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your comments on attachments to the Abhidhamma or other teachings. You wrote at the end (I don't have the post no) 'That's what makes these historical-type discussions quite redundan in the end, isn't it?' You had good points. And when you aded that 'one should not be attached to it in such a way that disputes or vexations would arise from such attachments', there is plenty in both the suttas and Abhidhamma to support your point. Where of course we disagree was in the very last line where you wrote 'Whatever arises is just all absolutely pure conditioned processes. Even concepts'. It's just that 'even concepts' that I have a problem with. I'd be glad to look at any references or discuss further. Metta, Sarah ====== 41289 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:19am Subject: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah, Sarah: Somehow the gist of my message got lost in the storm, but thank you for your well-written analogy none the less. James: Oh Sarah, there's no storm. ;-) It's just the same old, tired banter of me trying to get you to loosen up on your attachment to your views, and you absolutely refusing to budge. You won't even entertain for a second that you might be mistaken. That is some strong attachment! I hope I am not like that- but if I am feel free to tell me. Anyway, thanks for the compliment about `well-written' . Sarah: Let me take the liberty of spelling out that gist once more in simple terms. No need to `buy' it, I assure you. James: This is nice of you but I would have preferred it if you had stuck to the specific issues you and I addressed in the other post. Now this thread is becoming a mess and difficult to follow. Sarah: Before we fantasise about Porsches and Ferraris (ways of attaining nibbana), let's see if we need to learn to walk first in baby steps (learn about namas and rupas). James: Ugh! A poor mixing of metaphors: cars and baby steps! ;-)) Anyway, I don't consider the Buddha's teaching or attaining nibbana to be a fantasy. If you consider it a fantasy or just way too beyond you, that's too bad for you. Honestly, I don't know why you bother then. Sarah: When we've got a little more idea about making these baby steps, even though we may well still be at the toddler stage (wobbly and occasional arising of sati only), we need to start learning about left and right (the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states) and how to cross the road at the zebra crossing, traffic lights or with the assistance of the `lollipop lady'* (develop satipatthana, samatha and all kinds of kusala). James: This is the dhamma according to Sarah; what about the dhamma according to the Buddha? What `steps' does he recommend? Take for example this sutta where the Buddha describes the stages in reverse order: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html#sangha James: So, the dhamma according to the Buddha begins with mindfulness of in and out breathing. That is the first baby step (to use your analogy) and yet you don't believe in the value of being mindful of in and out breathing: "Oh, that is being selective about the object of awareness. Oh, that reinforces the idea of a `self' which can do something. Oh, oh, oh…" Sarah, you aren't even taking the first baby steps, you are just talking. I'm going to skip some of your other points because they are really repetition of the same point. Sarah: No, I'm not making difficult sacrifices or having `painful sitting in meditation',but then I believe the development of any kind of kusala (with calm naturally) is light, free of torment and not about beating oneself up in anyway. The Middle Path. James: No, that is not the middle path- that is the self-indulgent path. I can be self-indulgent also, but I at least admit it- and don't confuse that with real practice. You should call a spade for spade. Metta, James 41290 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ straw men Hi Ken H., Ken: Of course I find it hard! Do you think right understanding is simple? Normally that would be a ridiculous question, but I ask it with some seriousness after learning that James, and others, think enlightenment is simple (at least to the stage of Stream-entry). James: Excuse me? I didn't say that. Don't go using me for another one of your straw men. ;-) Metta, James 41291 From: Jhanananda Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:04pm Subject: Jhana Sources Jhana Sources Hello my good friends who follow a contemplative life, I thought you might like to have some resources for the meditative absorption states. Within a Southern (Nikayan) Buddhist context the meditative absorptions are known as Jhana, this however does not mean that these subjective states are any different from what Christian mystics, like Teresa of Avila, called the religious ecstasies. In fact one will find every contemplative tradition has some context for these states. The current issue of Tricycle (Winter 2004) has a special section titled 'The Jhanas: Perfecting States of Concentration'. Articles and contents are: Mary Talbot: WHAT ARE THE JHANAS? Bhante Henepola Gunaratana: THE PATH OF SERENITY AND INSIGHT Leigh Brasington: A MIND PURE, CONCENTRATED, AND BRIGHT Christina Feldman: OPENING THE GATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS Thanissaro Bhikkhu: SEEING FOR YOURSELF Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo: ABSORBED IN THE BREATH plus selection from the Pali Canon http://www.tricycle.com/new.php?p=articles&id=280 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& other S O U R C E S for J H A N A GREAT WESTERN VEHICLE In an effort to provide support for those seeking to cultivate the jhanas the Great Western Vehicle offers two services to the jhana bound contemplative. They provide an archive of articles on the subject of jhana. The Jhana archive is at this URL: http://www.geocities.com/jhanananda/jhanaarticles.htm JHANA SUPPORT GROUP A peer level support group for supporting people who have. or think they are experiencing the symptoms or conditions of ecstatic absorption (jhana). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ BHAVANA SOCIETY Maháthera Henepola Gunaratana http://www.bhavanasociety.org/ Articles on Jhana by Maháthera Henepola Gunaratana http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas00.htm LEIGH BRASINGTON's Web site: http://home.attbi.com/~leighb/ METTA FOREST MONASTERY (WAT METTAVANARAM) Thanissarro Bhikku (Tan Geoffrey) http://here-and-now.org/watmetta.html The Jhanas By Ajahn Brahmavamso http://www.geocities.com/jhanananda/thejhanas.pdf May you become enlightened in this very life-time, Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks) http://www.geocities.com/jhanananda/ 41292 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James & all - especially those living in the Eastern United States --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Oh Sarah, there's no storm. ;-) .... Thx for telling me ;-) I appreciated the warning too. Howard and all, just watched the News about all your storms in NY and other states. Hope no probs for any of you in your parts of the world. Metta, Sarah ========= 41293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:43am Subject: Right Effort Dear Friends, This is always a good topic and I'm glad to read the on-going threads and not intending to butt in.....:-/ I just wish to share again with any newcomers this extract from a post of Dan's which deserves a regular airing in my view.. Dan: "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: [Dhs. 13] "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment and understanding. Is this done via ritual? I don't think so." ***** For the full message and another of Dan's I quickly found: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13176 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8187 Also, plenty more excellent posts from the archives(in my view) in Useful Posts under Effort-right (files section). Metta, Sarah ======== 41294 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Dear Bhante - In a message dated 1/25/05 12:40:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, bhikkhu_ekamuni@y... writes: > A curious &puzzled friend asked: > > What are the 10 questions where Buddha kept silence ? > > Buddha did not answer these 10 questions: > > Why not ? > Because they are indeterminable &thus rightly unanswerable. > Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. > Because they thus obstruct &destroy the only Way to Final Peace. > > What are the 10 Indeterminable Questions ? > > 1: Is the Universe Finite ? > 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? > 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? > 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? > 5: Is the Vitality of Life the same as the Body ? > 6: Is the Vitality of Life different from the Body ? > 7: Do a Well-Gone-One exist after Death ? > 8: Do a Well-Gone-One not exist after Death ? > 9: Do a Well-Gone-One both exist ¬ exist after Death ? > 10: Do a Well-Gone-One neither exist nor not exist after Death ? > > Questions like these are based on false a priori assumption &are > absurd &thus wrongly formulated. Bertran Russel gave another > good example of these logic traps: Is the French King bald ? > Initially the question seems to point to absence of hair, yet > closer analysis reveal that since there exist no French King now > so how can he ever be bald or anything else for that matter ... ;-) > Also there the Buddha would have kept silence... Hehehe > > : - ] > > > Friendship is the Greatest! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka > > ========================= Bhante, you point to these as being indeterminable due to their having false presuppositions. While I can think of some additional reasons, depending on circumstances, for the indeterminicity of the 1st four, I believe you are correct about false presuppositions being the primary reason. I think it would be very useful were it possible to discern in each case what those false presuppositions are. I have some ideas on a couple of these, but not all. In any case, I would prefer to hear and learn about this rather than just put forward my own guesses. I would greatly appreciate it if you and others could state what you see as the false presuppositions, giving Suttic, Abhidhammic, or commentarial support when and if possible. (Please note: This is just a request, not an assignment! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41295 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ straw men Hi, Ken - Okay, my friend. We are looking at the same things, but we are not seeing the same things. And there doesn't seem to be much likelihood of our coming to agreement. There is an apparently insurmountable gulf between our understandings, at least at this point in time. Well, what is, is. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/25/05 2:52:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --------------------------------------- > KH: >>. . . how do your answers differ from mine? >> > > > Howard: >My answer follows in the remainder of my post, in > discussing two truths, the conventional and the ultimate, with the > ultimate truth underlying the conventional truth. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Maybe I don't try hard enough to understand your point of view. You > probably find that frustrating and you accuse me of putting up straw > men. > > I know how you feel! > > :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41296 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (243) Dear Dhamma Friends, As repeatedly said before, at any given time there is a citta and it is associated with many cetasikas and the whole mixture has to home on a ground or a base or vatthu and the whole mixture also has to hook at an object or arammana which is one of 6 kinds. These 7 kinds are 1.rupa or sight (form, shape) or 'things that are able to be seen' 2.sadda or sound or 'things that are able to be heard' 3.gandha or smell or 'things that are able to be smelled' 4.rasa or taste or 'things that are able to be tasted' 5.photthabba or 'things that are able to be touched' 6.dhammas or 'things that are able to be thought out' 1 to 4 are 4 paramattha rupas. 5 is one or the other of 3 paramattha rupas. 6 is one or the other of 6 kinds of dhamma. Paramattha = parama + attha Parama or 'parama.m' means 'higher' 'superior'. Attha means 'essence' 'meaning'. Paramattha means 'superior essence' 'superior meaning' 'higher meaning'. This means that ''no other things or definitions are right rather than these 'superior meaning'.'' 1 to 4 are things that can be confirmed by anyone whoever is intelligent or foolish, highly intelligent or unlearned, well- perfected or just-beginner. 5 is one or the other of 3 paramattha rupas. These 3 paramattha rupas are 1.pathavi or 'the essence that has the character of hardness- softness/roughness-smoothness', 2.tejo or 'the essence that has the character of warmth-cold-hotness', 3.vayo or 'the essence that has the character of pressing/being-pulled/moving/vibrating/supporting. 6 is one or the other of 6 kinds of dhamma. Again when it is a kind that kind,when serves as an object, has to be one or the other in the whole range of dhammas within that kind. These 6 kinds are a) 5 pasada rupas So when 1 pasada rupa is serving as an object the others do not involve. This is what I have said 'has to be one or the other in the whole range of dhammas within that kind'. Here the whole range is 1.cakkhu-pasada, 2.sota-pasada, 3.ghana-pasada, 4.jivha-pasada,5.kaya- pasada. b) 16 sukhuma rupas or 16 subtle materials Again when one serves as an object the other subtle materials do not involve. c) 89 cittas or 121 cittas[89 kinds of consciousness or 121 kinds] When one citta is serving as an object, the others do not involve. d) 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors When one serves as an object the other cetasikas do not involve e) 1 nibbana or 'liberation' f) 1 pannatti When one idea or concept serves as an object there is no other ideas or concepts. If that given citta is 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' and it is the very first citta in a given life then that citta is 'linking consciousness' in a being who is born in one of 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence. 'Upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' This is a citta. It is santirana citta. Santirana means 'investigating'. It gets this name because it can do the job of investigating. But in the above name when it serves as linking consciousness it is not a santirana citta or investigating consciousness. It is patisandhi citta or linking consciousness. It is santirana citta. It is a vipaka citta. Vipaka means 'resultant' 'cooked result'. Again this vipaka or result is the result of 'bad-doing' or 'akusala' or 'unwholesome'. So it is akusala vipaka santirana citta. It does not have any root of 6 root dhammas or 6 roots. These 6 roots are 1.lobha or 'attachment' 2.dosa or 'aversion' 'hatred' 3.moha or 'ignorance' 4.alobha or 'non-atachment' 5.adosa or 'non-aversion' 6.amoha or 'non-ignorance' or 'panna' or 'wisdom' The above citta does not have any of these 6 dhammas. So it is ahetuka citta. Upekkha here means 'indifferent feeling'. Saha means 'together with'. Gata means 'to go'. Upekkha saha gata means 'in association with indifferent feeling'. This citta 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' is a single citta. This citta can do as many as 5 jobs. They are 1. the job of linking [cuti citta of previous life with 1st bhavanga citta of current life] or patisandhi kicca. Pati means 'again' and sandhi means 'to link' kicca means 'function' or 'job'. 2. the job of 'continuing the current life' or bhavanga kicca. Bhavanga = bhava + anga. Bhava means 'existence' and anga means 'limb' 'part' 'component'. 3. the job of 'ending the current life' or cuti kicca. Cuti means 'move from the current existence' 4. the job of 'investigating the object' or santirana kicca. Santirana = sam + tirana. Sam means 'very well' 'without fault' and tirana means 'investigate'. 5. the job of 'retaining the object' or tadarammana kicca. Tadarammana = tada + arammana. Tada means 'then' 'the' 'afterwards'. Arammana means 'object'. Arammana = Aa + rammati + mana. Rammati means 'enjoy'. Arammanas are 'where mana or mind or citta enjoy'. If the given citta is 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' and it is at the very first moment in a life or if it is performing linking function then that linking is said to be 'rebirth in one of 4 woeful planes of existence'. When does it come from? No one dictates this citta to arise. But the conditions favour arising of this citta. So what are the conditions? The conditions are 1. ending of the previous life [disappearance of cuti citta of previous life] 2. having done unwholesome actions in the past near or far in the whole samsara like 1.killing,2.stealing,3.lying, 4.sexual intrusion etc. 3. having arisen akusala javana cittas as last javana cittas in the previous life etc etc. 11 of 12 akusala cittas [ 8 lobha cittas, 2 dosa cittas, and 2 moha cittas ] can give rise to apaya patisandhi or rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence. Upekkha saha gatam uddhacca sampayutta moha mula akusala citta does not give rise to 'apaya patisandhi' or 'rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence'. But this uddhacca citta does give rise to other pavatti- vipaka cittas which are not patisandhi cittas. Sotapams, sakadagams and anagams do have uddhacca cittas at some time and they are not reborn in 4 woeful planes of existence. So why are sattas in 4 woeful planes of existence reborn in their respective realm? Because of kamma patha actions of akusala in the immediate past life or previous lives far away and far to be accessed. They are called katatta kamma. That is kamma that has been done once in a life which may be kappas long or more than that. Miccha-ditthi can give rise to 'rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41297 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah (and TG) - In a message dated 1/25/05 4:42:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > >I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown > >yet. > >Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to > >affect > >states. > ... > S: I don't remember anyone addressing this. I don't believe the > 'nonexistent concepts' do have any power. It is the thinking, reflecting, > marking and wise or unwhise consideration of them that has the power. > Nonexistenct concepts which are not conceptualised are just that - > nonexistent concepts. When they are conceptualised, like now, it is only > the thinking about them, the particular marking and remembering etc that > are real. > .. > ======================== I agree with you here, Sarah, definitely. But I also think there is more. Actually I addressed this issue briefly in a post to someone though I don't recall who that someone was. Obviously, what does not exist does not serve as condition. In fact, to say that it does or does not is, in each case, without meaning, because there *is* no "it". However, there *is* a huge collection of experiential realities (paramattha dhammas) that serves as the basis for projecting the concept, and those dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas upon which we impute further concepts. So the reality is of dhammas conditioning dhammas, but our thinking process views it differently in a way that usually obscures the reality, but does not in the case of an arahant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41298 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:12am Subject: Snowstorm Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/25/05 8:11:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Howard and all, just watched the News about all your storms in NY and > other states. Hope no probs for any of you in your parts of the world. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================= Thanks, sarah. It was a bit of a blizzard in the New York area - a good amount of snow & high winds, but we have seen worse. In our area of western Long Island, we only had about 15" of snow, but there was a lot of drifting, also, due to the high winds. Further east on the island, there was closer to two feet of snow, with drifts way higher. In any case, there were very few power outages, the roads were cleared quickly and well, and, overall, this wasn't very "bad". The temperature has been the biggest problem, in the single digits, and with the wind-chill factor in negative territory. Thanks again for asking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41299 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Sarah, I snipped away all other unused old messages. I hope you do not mind that and if this does not make full sense please refer to the original one when I replied. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We agree they (cetana with javana cittas) are all kamma, but when it comes to 'production' or being capable of bringing results, we do seem to have a different understanding. If as you say, any lobha, dosa or moha related thinking can bring a result by kamma condition, what is the difference between kamma condition and pakatu-upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition)? What is the difference between the round of kilesa and the round of kamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a good question. 1) kamma condition or 'kamma paccaya' There are 2 kinds of condition in kamma paccaya. They are a) sahajaata kamma paccaya and b) naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya Sahajaata kamma paccaya a) causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma is 'cetana cetasika in 89 cittas' b) conditioned dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma is 89 cittas along with their cetasikas [52], cittaja rupas, and patisandhi kammaja rupas c) conditionality is called 'kamma paccaya' and it is sahajata kamma paccaya Naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya a) causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma are 14 akusala cetasikas and 19 sobhanasaadhaarana cetasikas all together 33 cetasikas and these are cetasikas that arisen in the past when kusala or akusala were being done. b) conditioned dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma is 36 vipaka cittas and their associated cetasikas, all cittaja rupas that derived from these 36 vipaka cittas except 2 vinatti rupas and patisanbdhi kammaja rupas. c) conditionality is called 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. If you are thinking with akusala cittas then there are akusala cetasikas along with those akusala cittas and they condition later dhamma as 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. This does not need to be kamma patha. Pakati-upanissaya paccaya or pakatu-panissaya paccaya or natural decisive support condition has a wide range of conditions. Among them there include raga or lust, dosa or hatred, moha or ignorance, maana or conceit, ditthi or wrong-view, pattana or expectation are some part of natural decisive support condition. The difference is that kamma paccaya is related to akusala and kusala dhamma when it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. If cetana cetasika arise along with kiriya cittas then those 19 cetasikas (sobhasaadhaarana cetasikas) do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya because it is kiriya and not akusala or kusala. When you are just thinking with kusala or akusala then it is not kiriya and it does have kamma effect and it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. It does not need to be kamma patha to be repeated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: I just included karuna as a side-track. It worths another > > thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. I'm curious to read this thread! ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I was just refering to the effect. Karuna just lasts a moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Regarding relics 'Mahaparinibbana suttas' and commentaries will > > tell you more. I just forgot the name of the river. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mentioned it, because I know there have been many, many accounts written which are not in the ancient texts and I wondered about yours. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just drew out from my memory. I am not good at story. So there might be some inaccuracies and if someone wants details they are advised to go further research. I just tried to touch as many dhamma areas as possible and this is my main reason that I am writing in different Yahoo Groups. I am just a beginner. When I was told that I was advanced I just smiled. I have told Joop what are my references and he now accepted what my references are. Abhidhammatthasangaha is just a summary. It is called 'little-finger- athakatha' or concise commentary. I based on that and extended if needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > I said that because 'idea' is more than naming. > > 1 and 1 makes 2. 1 is naming. 'and' is naming. 'makes' is another > > name. 2 is also a name. So the whole sentence is full of names. > > There is no '1' as paramattha dhamma. And nor other > > words 'and' 'makes' and '2'. > > But that sentence carries idea. That idea penetrates what it should. > > If you do not have panna or wisdom then you will not know that '1 and 1 makes 2'. > > That idea '1 and 1 makes 2' is part of panna. > > That is why I said 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I may misunderstand you, but it seems to me that what you call 'idea'here and in #40747 would come under the pannatti umbrella. In brief, if it's not citta, cetasika or rupa, then it's pannatti, wouldn't you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But what TG and Howard referred was different and that is why I responded in that way. Dhamma is larger, wider, deeper than great oceans. Again panna which is just one of Dhamma is also limitless and larger, wider, deeper than great oceans [see sabbaannuta nana]. As you said if 'something' is not citta, not cetasika, not rupa and not nibbana then it has to be 'pannatti'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: If it's not pannatti, what reality is it? You refer there to 'pannindriya cetasikas loaded cittas..', but there is no idea in panna. Understanding can have pannatti as objects, for example when there is wise reflection or the development of samatha, but the ideas are not 'part of pannindriya' (faculty of understanding). Am I missing something you're saying here? Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think something is missing even though you are right to say 'if something is not citta, not cetasika, not rupa and not nibbana, it has to be pannatti'. I will post at some point regarding this when idea arises. It comes like a flash of light and I just catch that flash and then I posted most of the time. It here means 'idea of what to write' 'what to post'. Example is 2 teams of forces that support the king citta. Obviously saddha is like a leader and I appointed him as a commander (army and navy) and appointed in both teams. 12 cetasikas are easy to group. From 7 when saddha is removed as it is already appointed as general or admiral there left 6 cetasikas and I group them into 2 of 3 cetasikas. These idea just came as a flash of light and I caught it and jotted down for later use. That simile is for easy remembrance and not to dilute or dissuade or deviate the already existing Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41300 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 > Htoo: > > > > I will stick to. Thanks Sarah for your kind comments and all the > > support including computer assistence that you organized Kom to > > helped me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I've forgotten, but you're most welcome and the 'kind comments' are very sincerely meant. I appreciate your contributions a lot. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Sorry I forgot to reply this part and accidently deleted this part. That assistence was 'how to snip away'. Kom taught me with e-mail. That was your indirect help in my computer matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41301 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 1/25/05 9:55:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Actually I addressed this issue briefly in a post to someone though I > don't recall who that someone was. Obviously, what does not exist does not > serve > as condition. In fact, to say that it does or does not is, in each case, > without meaning, because there *is* no "it". However, there *is* a huge > collection > of experiential realities (paramattha dhammas) that serves as the basis for > projecting the concept, and those dhammas serve as conditions for other > dhammas > upon which we impute further concepts. ===================== I have found my prior (partial) addressing of this matter, and it happens to have been in a post to Jon! What I wrote there was "We begin in the midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is with regard to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his listeners within the suttas. There he taught them to conventionally engage in conventional actions. The realities that underlie such actions are what have consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But we worldlings do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the conventional, conceptual level." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41302 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:55am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dialogue II. Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, #40690, DT219 You wrote several very useful (but v.difficult) posts on clear and faint objects etc. As Nina knows, I get confused with the very greats and the greats and the translations vary too, so sometimes it's not clear (to me) whether we're talking about sense door or mind door objects out of context (but you provide the context). Now you mention a few times (and I'm sure you're right) that `actually these objects do not have to be very clear or clear or faint or very faint. It is the arising of vithi cittas and their number..' As you say, if there is no cakkhu vatthu, there cannot be any visual object experienced and so on. Now,does the clarity just depend on the number? Surely it also depends on other factors such as light, the nature of that vatthu (blind person, for example) and so on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Pali word 'mahanta' and 'ati-mahanta' in these 6 visaya-pavatti or 'arising of objects' means the amount of 'vithi citta'. Ati-mahanta-arammana means 'the arammana or object that has very(ati) great(mahanta) amount of vithi cittas. There are a total of 14 vithi cittas. This is very great amount of vithi citta compared to paritta- arammana or mahanta-arammana. Again this 'ati-mahanta-arammana' 'mahanta-arammana' 'paritta- arammana' and 'ati-paritta-arammana' are not referring directly to object. It refers to 'arising' or pavatti. So it is called visaya- pavatti. They are not objects. But they are conditions of objects. The conditions do invlove light, media, air, saliva, nerve and conditions of vatthu. 1. ati-mahanta-arammana 14 vithi cittas 2. mahanta-arammana 12 vithi cittas 3. paritta-arammana 6 vithi cittas 4. ati-paritta-arammana 0 vithi cittas 12 is great. 6 is fewer than 12 and it is paritta or less/few. 14 is very great. 0 is very few. It is too few to count any vithi cittas. So according to Pali it is 'number based' but as you said conditions such as life, vatthu do have effects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: In the mind door process, we know that lokuttara cittas are `absorbed' because of the nature of the object (nibbana) to give an obvious example…..??? ….. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding mind door process there are 2 kinds. One is kama kind and another is appana kind. All appana javana are vibhuta-arammana or obvious object and there is no 2 kinds of visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object'. Again vibhuta avibhuta refers to number of vithi cittas and not directly to the object. Appana javanas are always vibhuta-arammana and there is no 2 kinds if I have to repeat again. This means that after manodvaravajjana citta there are 7 javana cittas in jhana javana, magga javana, abhinna javana and uncountable javana citta when in jhana-samapatti and phala- samapatti. All appana javana cittas arise in vibhuta-arammana of visaya-pavatti. In kama javana vithi vara there are 2 kinds and one is vibhuta- arammana and another is avibhuta-arammana. Here in vibhuta-arammana there are 10 vithi cittas ( 1 manodvaravajjana, 7 javana cittas, 2 tadarammana cittas ) while in avibhuta-arammana there are only 8 vithi cittas. So compared to 8, 10 vithi cittas is greater in number than 8. So 10 vithi cittas comprise in vibhuta-arammana or obvious object and 8 vithi cittas comprise in avibhuta-arammana or non-obvious object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: #40779 DT222 Several times you say vipaka cittas arise `RIGHTLY' but javana cittas may vary. I follow you and I like the Burmese expression `Vipaka's right, javana may not be right'. You gave an example of how smelling or seeing rotten flesh is definitely a disagreeable object or see or hear about a disaster. I discussed this topic before with other friends. As a general rule, what you say is correct, but in fact, it depends on the vipaka at that moment whether really anything unpleasant is seen, heard or smelt. Again, I'd be wary of such `blanket' or definite rules. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not my blanket. It is written in Abhidhammatthasangaha by Venerable Anuruddha of Tumuulasoma Monastry of Celon or Sri Lanka. 'Sabbatthaapi panettha anitthe aarammane akusalavipakaaneva pancavinnana sampaticchana santirana tadaarammanaani' 'Itthe kusalavipakaani' 'Ati-itthe pana somanassa saha gataa neva santirana tadaarammanaani' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Similarly,when it comes to golden images or even a Buddha statue, it would depend on the result of kamma at that very moment of seeing or touching, whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. For most people, I agree - that's why we read these examples in the texts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again Venerable wrote here like this.. 'Tatthaapi somanassa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane somanassa sahagataa neva tadaarammanaani bhavanti' 'upekkhaa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane ca upekkhaa sahagataa neva honti'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: ….. #40782 DT223 You continue with this topic and say that if it is a highly agreeable object, the next javana cittas will all be mahakusala or mahakiriya, followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana. Are you sure this is true? Ah, you go on to say there are some exceptional cases. Devadatta, surely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have quoted above. If the perception is felt through mahakusala or mahakiriya then 2 following tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka and they cannot be [CANNOT BE] akusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. I did show the example of Devadattha. In that case, vipaka is still right. I means after the kiriya citta of panca-dvara-avajjana there follow 3 cittas which are all vipaka cittas. They are panca-vinnana citta, sampaticchana citta and santirana citta. Votthapana citta or manodvara-avajjana citta is a kiriya cittas. Between 2 kiriya cittas there are 3 vipaka cittas. Vipaka is right for all. Even for Devadattha they are kusala vipaka cittas. But manodvara-avajjana which functions as votthapana citta decides to fully apperceive as domanassa then all 7 javana cittas will be domanassa saha gatam patigha sampayutta asankharika cittas and sasankharika cittas. But tadarammana vipaka cittas are no more somanassa cittas but upekkha cittas. These upekkha cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. After akusala there follow abyakata dhamma according to samanantara paccaya. Akusala cittas of Devadattha's dosa javana is followed by abyakata dhamma vipaka tadarammana cittas. These vipaka are kusala vipaka. [quote Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: But still, you may be right (that the immediately following javana cittas would have to be kusala ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I think you confused with kusala and abyakata dhamma. Tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. They are not kusala dhamma. But they may well be abyakata dhamma derived from kusala or akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: and it is only the following series of javanas that are full of hatred. I'd need to see the textual refs on this. I may check sometime too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Textual reference is already quoted above. Domanassa javana cittas are akusala dhamma. But tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: …. #40842. DT225 My biggest `problem' or disagreement to date with anything in your great series has been on jhana and kasina kamatthana. For example, here you talk again about `look into the whole circle' etc. Yes, kasina means `whole', but I believe it has more to do with understanding our attachment to colour (or white in this case) and really understanding the insignificance of colour than it has to do with any concentration of a `whole circle'. Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because there is sati, saddha, and other components of kusala dhamma including panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: We can look at any white object (or any other colour for that matter) as I see it and begin to learn just a little about the attachment and lack of calm at that moment. This in itself can be a condition for wise reflection and calm and their characteristics can be known as being quite distinct from the usual attachment and restlessness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The practitioner already drives out attachment, restless and has developed good nature concentrating on the object and that does work because there is panna who knows this is lust, this is aversion, this is ill will, this is restlessness, this is sluggishness, this is doubt, this is worry etc. Both teachers of Bodhisatta did not penetrate anicca-dukkha-anatta and they both were reborn in arupa brahma realms as puthujana arupa brahmas. As they are puthujana they will not be able to become sotapams and so other magga nana cannot be atained as long as in arupa brahma bhumis. But they did have panna which know bad things as bad things like lust, hatred, worry etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: When it comes to all the details about the processes involved in jhana attainment and so on, I'm very happy to learn from what you write and have no quibbles. (I should say for nearly all the DTs I just learn and have no quibbles and appreciate what you write). I also liked your #40864 DT227 a lot in which you stressed `classwise lokuttara cittas and rupavacara cittas or arupavacara cittas are totally different. But samadhiwise both kinds of citta have appana Sa madhi……….because magga cittas are absorbed in nibbana.' Etc. To be contd Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said so because they are not the same. When jhana cittas are poorly understood this problem arises. Let us re-examine again these appana cittas. 1st kind Rupavacara 1st jhana citta If in 1st jhana-samapatti vithi vara will be BBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ J here is 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam rupaavacara 1st jhana rupakusala citta'. It is obviously kusala citta. This kusala citta is jhana kusala and the object is 'the object of rupavara rupa jhana' and it is not nibbana. So if as long as the object os 1st jhana citta is not released that 1st jhana citta cannot take any lokuttara dhamma and so it is never lokuttara citta. This is right even in the case of arahat when they are in 1st jhana-samapatti. Their samapatti will be rupavacara 1st rupa jhana kiriya cittas in succession and this is obviously not lokuttara citta. So do other rupavacara rupa jhana cittas. They all are kusala cittas when they arise in non-arahats and they are kiriya when they arise in arahats. They are not lokuttara. By the same token when arupa jhanas arise they are arupavacara arupakusala cittas if non-arahats and arupavacara arupakiriya cittas if in arahats. They are never lokuttara cittas. They do not see nibbana. 2nd kind Lokuttara cittas 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMPUAGMPPBBBBB 2nd M is magga citta while 1st M is manodvara-avajjana citta. Magga citta is immediately followed by 2 phala cittas if the practitioner is mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or intelligent person then it will be like this 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMUAGMPPPBBBBB There are 7 javana cittas in both series. In the 1st 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotrabhu, 5.magga, 6. phala, 7 2nd phala. In the 2nd 1.upacara, 2.anuloma, 3. gotrabhu, 4. magga, 5.1st phala, 6.2nd phala, 7.3rd phala Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not jhana object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is they take nibbana as their object. Parikamma, upacara, anuloma are preparatory, proximate and facilitating citta. They see paramattha dhamma and see anicca, dukkha, anatta. Magga citta is not conditioned through asevana paccaya but other paccaya in this 7 javana cittas. There is no object of rupa jhana which are all panatti. If in phala samapatti then vithi vara will be.. BBB...BBBMUPAGPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPBB..BBBB All these phala citta see nibbana. They do not see any of rupa jhana object. So they all are lokuttara cittas as they see nibbana which is beyond lokas and not related to lokiya matters. 3rd kind. 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam pathamajjhana sotapatti magga citta' Again it is quite clear that this lokuttara jhana citta is not rupavacara jhana citta. It is said it is magga citta. It is lokuttara kusala citta. But that kusala citta does have 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata' and as it is well calm it has the quality of 1st jhana as once Kel said. But it is clear that this lokuttara jhana citta is not rupavacara jhana citta which is a lokiya citta while lokuttara jhana citta is always lokuttara citta and lokuttara citta always take nibbana as its object and no other object. When cittas are not well understood there always are problems of debate whether lokuttara cittas are jhana cittas or not. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41303 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo and Kel, Htoo, I personally hope your DT series continues to 1000. Thank you for accommodating various requests to go at a slower pace. More to add on them later, to show there's dialogue going on as you say;-). (Kel, I liked the comments you wrote to Joop (#41078) on the ti- lakkhana. `When you truly understand anicca, you understand anatta' etc.) Like Nina, the comments you've both been making about not knowing sotapatti magga nana etc having occurred seem rather strange. You'd have to show me one example from the texts of this - someone who didn't know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, this is my late reply. Some passed sotapatti magga gate and they do not practise phala samapatti because they do not have jhana and they do not practise phala-samapatti. As they attained sotapatti magga with dry method or without jhana they may not know when they pass sotapatti magga gate. This does not means sotapatti magga citta does not know it enters ariyan area. But the person as we know does not know fully his status but he is totally free of doubt or suspicion, free of wrong view and free of rituals [silabbattaparamaasa]. Sotapatti magga is a single point. Do you ever remember a single point in the middle of billions of different citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: The sotapanna has no doubt at all. Anyway, Kel and Nina are already discussing this issue. On the 3 kinds of samapatti, you may also like to look at past messages in U.P. under `fruition'. Here's an extract from one of Nina's (part of a translated series): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18583 "Dhamma Issues 2, Fruition Attainment, no 7 There are three kinds of attainments, samåpatti: jhåna-attainment, fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti [15) which are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non-returner and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation- attainment. Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations." ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thank you Sarah. Nina's posts are clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Htoo, I liked your post on `nirodha-samapatti' very much. Many people have misunderstandings. Your breakdown of terms is very helpful. I think the passage above indicates that for phala-samapatti, the enlightenment had to occur with jhana and for nirodha samapatti, the anagami or arahant must have full mastery of all jhanas and the 8 attainments which were not common even in the Buddha's time, as I understand. You mentioned about how in nirodha samapatti there is no citta or cetasika or cittaja rupa. "So from the outside if these arahats are seen by other beings they will be like statues." This also reminded me of a passage from Dispeller 2588(Sammohavinodani)which always makes me smile (we used to play a party game as children called `Statues';-)). This is referring to the realm where only anagamis can be reborn. "Asa~n~nasattaana.m (`of the non-percipient beings'): of the beings devoid of perception. For some, after going forth in a sectarian sphere and seeing a fault in consciousness because lusting, hating and being deluded depends upon consciousness, imagine that `The consciousless state is good, this is nibbaana in the present existence;' and they generate the fading away of greed for perception and, developing the fifth attainment in conformity therewith, they are reborn there. At the moment of their rebirth the materiality aggregate alone is reborn. If he is reborn standing, he stands only; if reborn sitting, he sits only; if reborn lying down, he lies only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding asannisatta certain super intelligent one said there are 2 cittas that arise in asannisattas and they are patisandhi citta and cuti citta. These 2 are exceptions and in the middle there is no citta at all. I do not believe so. Asannisattas are reborn with rupa-patisandhi and they die with rupa-cuti. Any thought on these 2 cittas? Do cittas arise in asannisattas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: They remain for five hundred aeons like painted statues. At their end the material body vanishes; sense-sphere perception arises. Through the arising of that perception here [in this sphere] those deities notice (pa~n~naayanti) that they have passed away from that [material] body." ***** I hope to come back to other threads later. I hope you don't have to leave the internet meanwhile;-). Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further adding: Asannisattas are like abhinna, I think. When jhanalabhis do iddhividdha abhinnana, there arise 1000 bodies as soon as a single abhinna javana arises. BBB...BBBPUAGAb............ In case of asannisatta, the previous life marana-asanna-javana will be like BBB...BBBPUAGJC |______Asannisattas__________|PBBBBBB.... J is 5th rupa jhana citta. It is a single citta. And it is like abhinnana. Marana-asanna-javana has 5 javana cittas. Here they are 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotabhu, 5.5thrupa jhana this is followed by cuti citta and then followed by rupa-patisandhi and then rupa-bhavanga throught out the life and die with rupa-cuti. | rupa-patisandhi. rupa-bhavanga.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RC | PBBBBB There seem to be no changes during asannisattas' life. But there are changes. Why? These are rupa dhammas and they arise and fall away. The changes that can be noted in asannisatta is arising of lahutaadi- ekadasaka-rupa-kalapa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's PS: p.s I liked your poetry and humour in one post to `Great Larry'and your other answers to questions.I think Nina added all the extra detail on D.O. and we're all in accord. I've shared my views on labeling in other threads;-)..Your 'mass-destruction' post was very good too. I meant to add more on that as well. We can read more about the destruction of the world by floods and other causes as you say in Vism and in suttas too.As you also said, 'The Buddha left the medicine, the food, the shelter. It is the Dhamma.' ============= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I said that 'Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind'. Some see and some do not see. The Buddha helped others to see this Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41304 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/25/2005 1:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown > yet. > Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to > affect > states. ... S: I don't remember anyone addressing this. I don't believe the 'nonexistent concepts' do have any power. It is the thinking, reflecting, marking and wise or unwhise consideration of them that has the power. Nonexistenct concepts which are not conceptualised are just that - nonexistent concepts. When they are conceptualised, like now, it is only the thinking about them, the particular marking and remembering etc that are real. Hi Sarah I'm going to try to send two e-mails in response to yours because I don't like it when these things get too long. In this one, you missed my point above (which was easy to do). I am not saying concepts are non-existant. I am not taking about concepts that haven't arisen. I am imparting that viewpoint to those in this group who do not believe that (arisen) concepts are real. I am asking, from their point of view, how something that isn't real can affect things that are real. How can the principle of Dependent Origination account for that? You mention thinking, reflection, marking, wise conderation; are the powers that actually affect things. These states you mention are dependent on concepts (with possible minimal exceptions). What is thought...other than mental activity engaging a concept? How can a "reality" be supported by a "non-reality"? This is the point I was making. In my view, your comments support that viewpoint (without supporting it). ;-) TG 41305 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your adding. Your message is changing my memories. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Correction. Your message is charging my memories. And memories become full in power again. quote ---> Uraga With respect, Htoo Naing 41306 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 c Pilgrimage India 3 c Paññå leads to detachment from the idea of self and also from all objects we experience. I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about Lodewijk¹s health and she answered that worry is only nåma. I found this answer like a cold shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the truth. Even when we understand the truth in theory, we may not be ready yet to accept the truth. We find our problems most important and we are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but we should remember that there is the island of Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that we should understand the real meaning of dukkha: the truth that there are only elements which do not last. We should not try to have less clinging, less worry, but understanding can be naturally developed of whatever dhamma occurs. We should have understanding of worry as only a conditioned dhamma that is already past, otherwise we cling to the idea of ³my worry². What she said is deep, it is wise, it is most effective. When we were going around the Stupa in Kusinåra which commemorates the Buddha¹s parinibbåna, Acharn Sujin reminded me that through the development of understanding there can be detachment from visible object and also from thinking. When I said that I find detachment most difficult, she stressed: ³It has to be developed!² First we have only intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa, but understanding can be developed so that direct understanding can arise. It is bound to take a long time to become detached from realities. *** Nina. 41307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas. Volition Hello Phil, I thought of you seeing the questions, I almost wanted to hint, but then I restrained myself, not wanting to force you. I snipped very little, since I like to keep your answers. op 24-01-2005 23:34 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> i There is cetanaa, also when we are sound asleep. What is its >> function at such a moment? > > Co-ordinating the other cetasikas to help them to perform their > functions. Cetana has a kind of double funciton sometimes co- > ordinating, sometimes being the volition that is kamma. >> ii When we observe sila what is the function of cetanaa? > That would be wholesome (kusala) kamma, I guess. N: Good. >Ph: iii Which cetasika is akusala kamma or kusala kamma? > Cetana (volition.) Is that a trick question? N: no, but people do not realize that kamma is cetana cetasika, they merely think of the outward appearance of deeds. It is intention that makes the deed, it is mental and thus it can be accumulated. Ph: iv How can a deed performed in the past produce a result later >> on? > > Because they are accumulated with each citta. This is the point > that I still have trouble understanding, no matter how often Nina > explains it to me. I still see cittas completely falling away, so > don't know how anything can be accumulated. N: Each citta falls away, but the citta that falls away conditions the succeeding one by way of contiguity-condiiton, anantara paccaya and samananatara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas. This is the key. Accumulations are passed on, but with this expression of passing on we have to be careful. There is not a constant that is passed on, every dhamma changes. Also accumulations, all the time new qualities and new experiences are added. There is no end. > Ph: v What kind of result can be produced by akusala kamma >> patha (unwholesome course of action) which is completed? >> vi What are the other forms of vipåka produced by kamma, >> apart from rebirth-consciousness? > These two questions look the same to me. Vipaka can be in the form > of rebirth-consciousness or it can come through many moments of > seeing, hearing and the other six door sense objects in daily life, > though our lifetime. > > The "completed" above means that many of the necessary conditions > have been fulfilled to make it kamma patha. Otherwise wholeseome and > unwholesome deeds of mind, speech and action are accumulated and lead > to accumulated tendencies (anusayas) but not vipaka because they are > not "completed" by the fulfillment of conditions that will make them > kamma patha (?) N: Yes. Also when completed kamma is performed, there are many moments of kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising before or after a deed which are also accumulated as tendencies. The word anusaya is reserved for specific akusala latent tendencies. It is most intricate. When you give it is kusala kamma that will produce result, but when you regret your gift afterwardssuch akusala cittas influence the vipaaka, this will be less superior. I learnt this from Visuddhimagga and tiika. Ph: > vii What is the effect of the accumulation of tendencies to good >> and evil? > > The tendencies become deeper and thicker and more difficult to > eradicate? And they can reappear at unpredictable times when the > conditions are right. For example, we can feel quite proud and > confident about having made progress on the surface, but the > tendencies are there and we will get many rude reminders in life that > there is deep, deep clinging and they are very difficult to eradicate. > There is the simile of the cloth. You can wash it and get the > visible stains out, but the smell of dung clings subtly. N: Right. The last one is said of subtle conceit not yet eradicated. Also kusala is accumulated and this will condition the arising of kusala citta later on. Ph: viii When we laugh is there akusala citta? > > I would guess there usually is. There is usually lobha involved. > But there can be the arising of wholesome laughter as well. N: Then it would be smiling. But we can smile with disdain or conceit. The citta has to be knonw at that moment. When there is a sound I think it would be akusala. Ph; ix When we are daydreaming can there be akusala citta? > > How could there be anything but? Daydream is a form of longing for > things to be different than they are. That is lobha. I wouldn't call > reflection on Dhamma, on the Buddha "daydreaming." But I think such > reflections, if they arise in a natural way, are the only form of > applied thinking that don't involve some form, even very subtle, of > lobha. > >> x What are the conditions for kusala citta to arise more often? > > Hearing the Dhamma, discussion with good friends. Appreciation of > kusala citta when it arises, if it arises, in daily life. We fail to > appreciate the importance rare moments of wholesomeness and cling to > more dramatic results, but the moments of kusala cittas (often in the > form of abstaining from unwholesome thoughts, speech, deeds) > condition the arising of more, sooner or later, if we are patient. N: Very good answers, inviting to more reflection. We do not have to go far to look for opportunities for kusala, we are with people very often. I liked Jon's examples in his dialogue with Larry. It gives us more ideas for kusala. Abstaining from idle talk is a good one to remember. We are not arahats, we are not monks, but it is good to realize what kind of talking we are wasting our time with. Kusala can be performed in a natural way. As you say, we should not cling to more dramatic results. Kh Sujin always stresses: do not expect anything. With appreciation of your kusala citta, Nina. 41308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Pilgrimage India 3 b Hi Larry, op 25-01-2005 01:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a > time." > I agree this is the way experience seems, so what is experience? > According to the texts reality actually works quite differently. Many cetasikas arise at the same time and perform their functions [I wonder > if we could say instead 'express themselves'.] N: They perform their functions while they share the same object as the citta they accompany. They also experience, but eachof them in their own way. L: At any rate we never experience most of these cetasikas. N: it depends on the individual's paññaa. What is real *can* be experienced. L: This suggests to me that reality is not an object of panna because panna can have only one object at a time, but in reality many dhammas arise at a time. N: Each citta, be it accompanied by paññaa or not, can experience only one object at a time. Many dhammas arise at a time, true, but sati can be aware of only one at a time, and if paññaa accompanies the citta it can understand the nature of that dhamma. All that is real can be an object of paññaa. When seeing appears and is object of paññaa there is visible object at the same time, and there is eyebase, and there is phassa, feeling, many other dhammas. At another moment visible object can be object of paññaa. It does not matter that only one object at a time can be known, paññaa can understand whatever object appears to sati. This is an important principle for the development of satipatthana. I can explain again in another way if I did not make myself clear. L:However, that is a side issue. N: No, it is important. L:I'm mostly interested in what is experience. If experience is > consciousness how do we experience the cetasikas? N:It helps to go back to basics. Which of the four paramattha dhammas is experience: citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbana? Citta and cetasika. They experience an object. In order to understand this, we should not mix Abhidhamma with what we learnt in philosophy, for instance with notions of subject and object. This does not lead to detachment form the idea of self. L: If experience is consciousness and an object do we experience both at the same time? N: Citta experiences an object, and another citta arising later on can know a former citta, or the object it experiences, but not two dhammas at the same time. This I heard on MP3 and may be of help to understand citta, object and doorway: We know when there is seeing, because seeing is dependent on the eyedoor, it knows visible object through the eye-door. We know when there is hearing, we do not confuse seeing with hearing. But of course, without insight their different characteristics are not realized precisely. It helps to compare cittas that are dependent on a doorway with cittas not depending on any doorway. The bhavangacitta is not dependent on any doorway, and thus we cannot know what object it experiences. We do not know now when there is exactly bhavangacitta. In between processes there is also citta, the bhavangacitta, but we do not realize this yet. It is like a moment of deep sleep. By insight this citta can be known. That is why Kh Sujin said: the whole day there are moments of being awake, when we experience objects through the six doorways, and moments of deep sleep: awake, asleep, awake, asleep. We are thinking a lot, but where does it come from? It is dependent on what we experienced through the sense-doors, visible object, sound, etc. It originates from remembrance, sañña. We remember what is experienced through the sensedoors and then we think about it. Nina. 41309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to the list, sharing experiences. Hi Hugo, You spent your time well. Looking forward to your input, Nina. op 24-01-2005 22:36 schreef Hugo op eklektik@g...: > I took some time off from the list and "took with me" some topics that > popped up during my participation in this and other mailing lists. 41310 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika CETASIKAS OF SANKHAARAKKHANDHA ACCORDING TO ASSOCIATION WITH CONSCIOUSNESS Text Vis. 133. I. (1) Herein, firstly, those associated with the first sense-sphere profitable consciousness (1) amount to thirty-six, that is to say, the constant ones, which are twenty-seven given in the texts as such, and the four 'or-whatever-states'[ 59], and also the five inconstant ones (cf. Dhs.1). ========== N: The first type of mahaa-kusala citta is associated with paññaa, accompanied by happy feeling and unprompted. The Vis. text now enumerates the thirty-six cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, that may associate with this type of citta. Thus, it does not mention here feeling and saññaa which accompany each citta and which are each a separate khandha. Twenty-seven cetasikas are expressively mentioned in the text of the Dhammasangani, Œgiven in the text as such¹ and in addition there are the four 'or-whatever-states'. ============ Note 59. Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1) ============ N: The list of cetasikas in the Dhammasangani is not exhaustive. There are four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors. These are: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara), evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). These cetasikas are mentioned in the Anupada sutta (M. N. no 111). The Expositor (p. 174, 175) deals with these, but includes also the five cetasikas which do not arise with every kusala citta, thus it classifies the supplementary factors as ninefold. The Visuddhimagga enumerates first twentyseven cetasikas and then adds the four supplementary facors, thus together these are thirty-one cetasikas included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha that accompany the first type of mahaa-kusala citta that is associated with paññaa. These are constant or fixed (niyata), they always arise with this type of citta. Moreover, there are five sobhana cetasikas that are inconstant, they do not always accompany mahaa-kusala citta and if they do, they arise only one at a time. =========== Text Vis.: Herein, the twenty-seven given as such are these: ======== N: the Tiika states: that have been handed down in the text just as such (paa.liyaa saruupeneva aagataa). Only these are enumerated in the Dhammasangani, but there are others, namely the supplementary factors. That is why the Dhammasangani states after the enumeration: ŒOr whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen dhammas there are too on that occasion'. =============== Vis text: (i) contact, (ii) volition, (iii) applied thought, (iv) sustained thought, (v) happiness (interest), (vi) energy, (vii) life, (viii) concentration, (ix) faith, (x) mindfulness, (xi) conscience, (xii) shame, (xiii) non-greed, (xiv) non-hate, (xv) non-delusion, (xvi) tranquility of the [mental] body, (xvii) tranquility of consciousness, (xviii) lightness of the [mental] body, (xix) lightness of consciousness, (xx) malleability of the [mental] body, (xxi) malleability of consciousness, (xxii) wieldiness of the [mental] body, (xxiii) wieldiness of consciousness, (xxiv) proficiency of the [mental] body, (xxv) proficiency of consciousness, (xxvi) rectitude of the mental body, (xxvii) rectitude of consciousness. The four 'or-whatever-states' are these: (xxviii) zeal (desire), (xxix) resolution, (xxx) attention (bringing to mind), (xxxi) specific neutrality. And the five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. These last arise sometimes [but not always], and when they arise they do not do so together. ========= N: The Tiika adds to the word sometimes: ³they are not fixed (aniyata) because they arise only sometimes, and when they arise they do not arise together.² Thus, altogether thirtysix cetasikas are dealt with here, thirtyone that are constant and five that are inconstant. Remark: Many conditions are necessary for the arising of the first type of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. The sobhana cetasikas which are constant have to assist mahaa-kusala citta associated with paññaa, and each of them performs its own task. All of them are necessary so that mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa can arise just for a moment and perform its function, and then citta and cetasikas fall away together. The cetasikas condition the citta by way of conascent-condition and by several other conditions. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. It arises when the right conditions are present and then it falls away immediately, nobody can cause it to last. All the sobhana cetasikas that fall away are accumulated from moment to moment so that there are conditions for the arising again of kusala citta. ***** Nina. 41311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Potthila and Yuganaddha Dear Tep, op 23-01-2005 20:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: . Have you read the Potthila Thera's story yet? N: This was the first text Rob K and I corresponded about in a series of more or less hundred letters handwritten, in the pre-internet time. I explained that Potthila could not have become an arahat if he had only be aware of nama. One cannot forego the first stage of insight: distinguishing nama from rupa. Nama should be realized as pure nama, not mixed with rupa. That is why in the arupa-brahma planes one cannot become a sotapanna. There is no rupa there to be aware of. And we read that P. after the instruction 'concentrated on the material body'. What do you think about this interprettaion: he guarded the six doorways by mindfulness and thus he was not troubled by sense impressions. These could not overwhelm him. This is my own idea, the text does not mention details. But in another sutta I read that detroying your senses is not the way. A monk was wondering about that. Yuganaddha sutta, coupled, A.n. IV, 170: we had many posts on that, pulling out texts, also the Path of Discrimination. It is very clear. Tep: "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? ... ... ... > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the > path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his > obsessions destroyed. N: The fourth way is insight, vipassana imperfections are mentioned. The Path of Discrimination also sees it from the aspect of lokuttara citta, the concentration and calm with lokuttara citta. We have to investigate this point when we read about calm and insight. There is the highest calm with phalacitta, since defilements are eradicated. See archives for this sutta. Looking at the Path of Discrimination, I saw a text on enlightenment factors, which factors we discussed before: (p. 306): These develop on and on until arahatship. I like this text. Nina. 41312 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: Right Effort Dear Sarah - Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? Dan said, " It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise". How was he able to "discern clearly" about these two opposite words? Couldn the difference be caused by a printing error? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > This is always a good topic and I'm glad to read the on-going threads and > not intending to butt in.....:-/ > > I just wish to share again with any newcomers this extract from a post of > Dan's which deserves a regular airing in my view.. > > Dan: > "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the > components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five > faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the > noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam > tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty > of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor > (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, > endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost > exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having > sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, > discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, > power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of > endeavor." > > Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This > is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- > cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya > cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: [Dhs. 13] "What > at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is > mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder > and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking > zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering > endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not > relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as > the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that > time is the faculty of endeavor." > > The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph > contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to > toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is > critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" > or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment > and understanding. Is this done via ritual? I don't think so." extract> > ***** > For the full message and another of Dan's I quickly found: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13176 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8187 > > Also, plenty more excellent posts from the archives(in my view) in Useful > Posts under Effort-right (files section). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 41313 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/25/2005 1:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > For myself, I don't think discerning "realities" in the sense of -- > 'what's > more real than something else' is the theme of the Buddha's teaching. I > don't > think he cares if you think concepts are the most real or unreal things > in the > world. I think he wants you to break attachments that lead to > suffering. > Hey...if rubbing a cloth will do the job, that's fine with him! ... S: I understand your point. I think, however, that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things as they are. Why else would he stress the importance of understanding the seeing and the seen, the hearing and the heard and so on for all the senses? Why bother to stress the understanding of the khandhas and on and on? How are the Buddha's teachings different from all other teachings on non-attachment? Is it the rubbing of the cloth that did it or the understanding which penetrated the truths while rubbing the cloth (or burning the curry or changing position....etc)? In another post at about the same time, you referred to the well-known verse about 'form is like a lump of foam' etc and suggested it is also 'a perfectly good way to view concepts as well'. Maybe, but the point of the verse is to point out the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, insubstantiality or non-self surely? Concepts don't have these characteristics, because as you said above they are 'nonexistent'! You mentioned that the Buddha wouldn't have wanted 'a mind...to reify these things as 'ultimate realities'. When we say rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are insubstantial or impermnanent etc, how are they reified? Metta, Sarah Hi Sarah Sarah: I think, however, that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things as they are. TG: I disagree with the word "only". First of all, he did not actually say this. So the statement is an interpretation...which is fine, but needs to be clear. Second of all, "seeing things the way they are" has more to it than analyzing states as "realities." (I much prefer calling things aggregates and elements, as the Buddha did; rather than realities. "Realities" is another one of those interpretations. If you keep interpreting interpretations enough, pretty soon your chanting Nam Yo Ho Ren Gei Kyo in order to get a new car...and thinking its the Buddha's teaching.) ;-) (It amazes me that so many in this group want such perfect accuracy that they insist on using Pali terms to get that "perfection"...and yet they use terms such as "realities" or claim the Buddha taught "realities" which is utterly unaccurate. Its just an interpretation. Back to the action...) In my mind, "seeing the way things are" is also of crucial importance. But I don't believe seeing things as "namas" and "rupas" is seeing things the way they really are. That dividing mentality in 52 mental factors, or consciousness into 17 processes, is seeing things the way they really are. I think these are just a particular set of models in order to develop the ability of insight. Personally I think these are good models, but they become a hindrance when given too much credence. I think seeing things the way they really are is "intuitive realization of impermanence...with the knowledge of suffering and no-self linked with it." What is impermanent? ... Anything conditioned. Sarah: Why else would he stress the importance of understanding the seeing and the seen, the hearing and the heard and so on for all the senses? Why bother to stress the understanding of the khandhas and on and on? How are the Buddha's teachings different from all other teachings on non-attachment? TG: He stressed these things, and he stressed other things as well. Make no mistake, I believe mindfulness of states as they arise, transform, and cease is of utmost importance! But I see it as one part of the process and I don't look to discount the other ways the Buddha taught in lieu of it. Sarah: Is it the rubbing of the cloth that did it or the understanding which penetrated the truths while rubbing the cloth (or burning the curry or changing position....etc)? TG: I would suspect that if someone became enlightened by rubbing a cloth, that both a conceptual understanding and a direct realization of impermanence were accomplished and a realization of the Path to purity. Sarah: In another post at about the same time, you referred to the well-known verse about 'form is like a lump of foam' etc and suggested it is also 'a perfectly good way to view concepts as well'. Maybe, but the point of the verse is to point out the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, insubstantiality or non-self surely? Concepts don't have these characteristics, because as you said above they are 'nonexistent'! TG: Concepts arise due to conditions, they are impermanent, they are suffering if attached to, and they are not-self. Yep, they got it covered. (Remember, I didn't say that they were non-existent, I was arguing against that opinion.) Sarah: You mentioned that the Buddha wouldn't have wanted 'a mind...to reify these things as 'ultimate realities'. When we say rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are insubstantial or impermnanent etc, how are they reified? TG: Along the lines of the following -- “Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it toward the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.’ Standing upon that, he attains destruction of the taints.â€? (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 540, The Greater Discourse to Malunkyaputta, Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta, #64) Whatever can be experienced has arisen. Even a fantasy is is an arisen fantasy. It arises, tranforms, and ceases. It makes no since to talk about realities as if there were non-realites of experience. The Buddha does not talk about "realities." He talks about conditions. Because he talks about conditions, he did not obscess over what was real and what wasn't real. He did not worry about the "existence or non-existence" of concepts. He taught about conditions. Conditions are anything within the "field of experience" including inferential knowledge (which may be right or may be wrong.) Which is why his teaching applies to concepts as well and freely uses them without apology. True, the enlightened mind overcomes concepts...but ultimately it overcomes all conditions! Even the so called "realities." TG: I wrote a little piece that I wasn't going to send but because its very related I'll send it right after this post. Its called -- "Inferential Analysis is Also Important" I'm going to tack-on the above paragraph because I think it will get lost in this post. TG 41314 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:52am Subject: Inferential Analysis is Also Important Hi Sarah, All Although it is important be to aware of actual states as they arise, transform, and fall...change; it is also an important part of the Buddha's teaching to be able to analyze things inferentially. Perhaps every bit as important. The Buddha taught interesting things such as -- "it is good to image the mind as being liberated from time to time." Hummm, pure imagination is recommended by the Buddha to assist the mind toward enlightenment. The Buddha sometimes taught impermanence by way of imagining past deceased family members. By imagining the wearing away of mountains, the wearing away of adze handles, by imagining the ones body in various state of decomposition. These are not directly experiencable states. Nor were these things being taught to idiots. These are ideas, concepts, that are being utilized to lead the mind to the truth...impermanence, suffering, no-self. Seriously, I could fill a whole book on all the things the Buddha taught that need the imagination (as concepts, inferences) as part of what he taught to lead the mind to enlightenment. Based on this, I could go around saying -- the Buddha taught imagination as a way to become enlightened. And I'd have grounds to support that claim! The fact of the matter is, the Buddha taught these methods, as well as directly knowing the changing nature of actual experience, as methods to overcome attachment. They are both important. The goal is not to understand "realities." Discerning the impermanence of conditioned states is a skill used to discern impermanence. Its a good and needed skill... and so are the inferential and analytical aspects of the Buddha's teaching. But getting too bogged down into "reality details" is not something to obsess over. The point is to know these states so as to abandon these states, not to "play around" with them as the "ultimate realities." Whatever can be experienced has arisen. Even a fantasy is is an arisen fantasy. It arises, tranforms, and ceases. It makes no since to talk about realities as if there were non-realites of experience. The Buddha does not talk about "realities." He talks about conditions. Because he talks about conditions, he did not obscess over what was real and what wasn't real. He did not worry about the "existence or non-existence" of concepts. He taught about conditions. Conditions are anything within the "field of experience" including inferential knowledge (which may be right or may be wrong.) Which is why his teaching applies to concepts as well and freely uses them without apology. True, the enlightened mind overcomes concepts...but ultimately it overcomes all conditions! Even the so called conditioned "realities." (As far as Nibbana being a "reality" that's for another discussion.) TG 41315 From: Hugo Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:21am Subject: Experiences at various Temples in California 1) Wat Lao Saophuth Only one monk spoke English, and he was from the Pure Land tradition (even though the monastery is Lao and Theravada, according to the website where I got the information from). He was very nice and agreed on opening the gates for me every day early in the morning to go and meditate in the meditation hall. He was surprised but very glad on having a westerner coming to the temple and specially making this kind of request. Unfortunately he said that he wasn't able to answer the questions I had very good because he is not fluent in English, he could speak Lao and Thai, though. He gave me three books too and told me to visit again next time I am on vacation over there. 2) Wat Sacramento Buddhavanaram This monastery is from the same tradition as the one I normally go when at home (i.e. Theravada Thai Forest tradition), so I felt "at home", they even knew my teacher. Unfortunately all of them spoke English just enough to get along but not for Dhamma questions. There was a lay lady who tried to be an interpreter between the Ajahn and myself but it wasn't working that good, I noticed that she was answering on her own without relying my question to the Ajahn, and her answer was more of an "Introduction to Buddhism" rather to what I was really asking ("what attains Nibbana?"). She also told me that she just recently started visiting the monastery because her husband does. The Ajahn gave me 4 books and one chanting book, then he got a phone call, so I decided to part. There was a monk standing in the back observing my interaction with the Ajahn and the lady. Once the Ajahn went off to speak on the phone the monk came forward and gave me a little book, more like a booklet with a bright yellow-orange cover with a Buddha image on it and the title in Thai. I noticed that the title was in Thai, but I took it anyway and thanked the monk, then left the monastery. On my way out, the lady walked with me and told me that she can read minds, I decided not to ask any further questions, thanked her and left to the next monastery..... 3) Wat Posrisattanat This is not a new monastery (10 years) and it is a combination of Lao, Thai and I think Cambodian, but I am not sure about the last one. Only one monk spoke English, but he was ordained only three years ago and when I asked "What attains Nibbana?" he struggled a little as if looking for the answer written somewhere in his mind and then asked me to repeat the question, then a little more struggling, then honestly replied "I don't know" (the good thing is that he didn't make up an answer). He was nice and we exchanged a few more sentences, he told me that there were senior monks who should know the answer but none of them spoke English, he told me of one who ordained when he was like 12 and now he is 60 years old. So, still with my question unanswered I decided to do some walking meditation in one aisle of the main square (it is a big piece of land they have there, it seems that they do big celebrations around this big square. They have three big Buddha images out there, one is completely black except for some details in gold or white I can't remember). More than meditation it was reflection, I felt kind of disappointed, I felt down, but this experience (and another where a friend of mine who was born in a Buddhist family (Vietnam), couldn't tell me if she practiced Mahayana or Theravada or what, she just said Buddhism, then I found out it was Zen and she mentioned that they had a "Bible" that they used to read, but she didn't do any meditation until recently) made me put my feet back to the earth and stop all thinking that because anybody labels themselves as a Buddhist or wears a robe it means they know the truth. It seems as if my ego had some kind of boost by thinking "hey now I am a Buddhist, Buddhism is the Truth, all the Buddhists can see the truth" and now it felt betrayed. Well, no, all the Buddhists are not practicioner Buddhists, even if they consider themselves Buddhists since they were born, they might have the label but they don't practice what the Buddha taught. I also remembered what Phil (from DSG) described about the sorry state of Buddhism in Japan in one of his posts where he said that some Japanese think of Christianity as more "pure" than Buddhism because of the corruption that has invaded some people there wearing the robes that are supposed to be the robes of a Buddhist Bhikkhu. I kept walk-meditating-reflecting until my mind settled and came out with a resolution to practice, practice, practice. I went back to my car and curiosity arose...."why did the monk in the previous monastery gave me a book in Thai?, he certainly noted that I didn't speak Thai"......so, before starting up my car I took a look at the book, yes, inside it was Thai also, I keep turning the pages and voila!, half of the book was Thai, but the last half was in English!!! And guess what! it was exactly what I was looking for! The essay is titled "Citta is Buddha" and I think is exactly the answer to my question (What attains Nibbana?), at least I felt my question answered. I will elaborate on this in another thread. As a result of this jouney through three different monasteries I had much better appreciation of having an English-speaking monk living near my home. So if you have this great fortune, go to that monk and thank him for being and staying there, I certainly did thank my teacher for coming from Thailand. In the topic of thanks, I would like to thank Ven. Vimalaramsi and many other Bhikkhus (e.g. those at SanghaOnline) who share their experience on-line. -- Hugo 41316 From: Hugo Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Hello Howard, On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:14:33 EST, upasaka@a... wrote: > rather than just put forward my own guesses. I would greatly appreciate it if you > and others could state what you see as the false presuppositions, giving > Suttic, Abhidhammic, or commentarial support when and if possible. (Please note: > This is just a request, not an assignment! ;-) I guess the main supposition is that of a self. -- Hugo 41317 From: cosmique1000 Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:39pm Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 > > Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not jhana > object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is they > take nibbana as their object. Dear Htoo, When one says "magga citta sees nibbana", does it mean that "that magga citta exists while seeing nibbana", or does "the act of seeing" occur after magga citta arises after the absorbtion in nibbana? The reason I am asking this question is that some theravada books say that when a practitioner "sees" or "touches" nibbana-dhatu his mind is suspended or ceased. In other words they equate nibbana and perception & feeling nirodhi. With metta, Cosmique 41318 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Hi, Hugo, Bhante, and all - In a message dated 1/25/05 5:25:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, eklektik@g... writes: > I guess the main supposition is that of a self. =================== I agree as regards #7 through #10, Hugo. In the ultimate sense, there is no being, no entity, known as the Tathagata to begin with. I suppose one might also take the same "ultimate" approach with regard to extension in space and time of "the universe" and in terms of "the body" being the same as or different from vitality of life, because in ultimate terms, like the "self" and the traditional chariot to which it is likened, universe and body are literally nonexistent. BTW, I assume that "vitality of life" is what is also called "physical life force". This is something the reality of which I have questioned in talking with Nina. I now see that it is a notion that the Buddha directly references in the Sutta Pitaka. So, perhaps it is a reality. On the other hand, perhaps it is a fact, and one that the Buddha knew, that there actually is no such thing, with its being a reality being a false presupposition involved there. It may well be that in talking to people of his period the Buddha often tolerated some of the common understandings of the time such as Mount Sumeru and life force for purposes of driving home certain points. Even today, a physicist whose area is quantum mechanics will still "speak Newtonian" for certain purposes, and to do so would not be considered lying. But with these 10 questions being laid right out for confirmation or denial, the Buddha presumably felt it necessary to give the only possible replies that didn't mislead because of existential presuppositions. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41319 From: Philip Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: Experiences at various Temples in California Hi Hugo I really enjoyed this! Thanks a lot. And welcome back. Now that my computer is working again I can track down the location of the Theravada temple in Tokyo (I think there's only one) and hopefully visit it soon and report in the same way. Hopefully posting this intention will condition actually doing it! Metta, Phil > As a result of this jouney through three different monasteries I had > much better appreciation of having an English-speaking monk living > near my home. So if you have this great fortune, go to that monk and > thank him for being and staying there, I certainly did thank my > teacher for coming from Thailand. > > In the topic of thanks, I would like to thank Ven. Vimalaramsi and > many other Bhikkhus (e.g. those at SanghaOnline) who share their > experience on-line. > > -- > Hugo 41320 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Pilgrimage India 3 b Hi Nina, N: "It does not matter that only one object at a time can be known, paññaa can understand whatever object appears to sati. This is an important principle for the development of satipatthana. I can explain again in another way if I did not make myself clear." L: I'm afraid we're going to have to say that reality is a concept because it can't be experienced in its simultaneity. That is to say the notion of many cetasikas arising at one time is a concept. Maybe we have to say consciousess or cetasika arising _with_ an object or cognizing an object is also a concept. As to the question of how do we experience cetasikas, maybe I should rephrase it and ask when do we experience cetasikas. Is it only in mind door processes? Does the cetasika have to be an object of consciousness in order to be experienced? Can we separate object and consciousness and only experience object? The root consciousnesses are consciousnesses infused with particular cetasikas. Does that same infusion of cetasika and consciousness occur when we experience vedana or sanna? If so, in what sort of citta process does this experience arise? Larry 41321 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika Hi Nina, I didn't understand what the basis of being supplementary is (refering to the 4 or-whatever-states). They don't look particularly different from the other 27. Is this possibly just a stylistic flourish in the categorization? Is there any significance to the order of this list of 27? Larry 41322 From: Philip Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:03pm Subject: QRe: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 104 - Volition and Cycle of ...(quiz answers) Hello all I've just read this chapter and found it very stirring, very encouraging. Life is so fluid, so momentary. Every moment there is life and death of citta. "When there is hearing, life is a moment of hearing", for example. I only know this in theory, but again, knowing it in theory even is so liberating. I think of this quotation from Ayya Khema (I'm pretty sure - I tend to be careless about the things I jot down in my pocket notebooks. Maybe it is Nina, or Nanamoli Thera - of course, it doesn't really matter who it is.) "All is fluid - at every moment you may add to suffering or contribute to peace. There are conditions, but right attention brings more freedom, gradually." It is not possible (in line with right understanding, at least) to *decide* to contribute to peace or abstain from adding to suffering moment by moment, but we find it happening more and more, and we can be encouraged when it does. Nina, I'll take a shot at the answers, even though I've just read your comments on my answers in the previous chapter. There is no telling how long the computer will work, so I will strike while the iron is hot. Sorry if this makes too much work for you. Please take your time in getting back to me, and thanks in advance. > i How can we know that there is a next life? By examing our life now. Moment by moment, cittas are born and fall away again. My insight is not developed in a way that allows me to know this except in theory, but I can see it mroe directly in the way mental mood moments come and go. One minute I am a foul-mouthed crank, bitching about students. The next minute I find myself awash in warm feelings towards them. This is very crude, but still helps me to see how there is a different "Phil" moment by moment, a different gathering of khandas with slightly altered accumulations. Also we can know that there is a next life because it is taught by the Buddha. We learn things from the Buddha and hold them with faith long before we can confirm them through experience. > ii Which kinds of cetan?Eare a link in the Dependant > Origination? Both kusala and askula kamma. At first I wouldn't have thought that kusala kamma could be conditioned by ignorance, but because it leads to a continuation of the cycle of birth and death, it is. Kusala kamma is not accompanied by ignorance at the time it is done, but in the sense of Dependent Origination it is still conditioned by ignorance. (BTW, the other day I made a funny typo "ignorace" - quite true, the way we race through life spurred on by ignorance) > > iii Why is cetan?Ewhich accompanies magga-citta not kammaformation? I guess because there is no result, no vipaka? The fuel has burned out? To be honest, I always skip over material/discussions related to magga-cittas, stages of enlightenment etc. It seems so very far away, not a matter of relevance in this lifetime. But as with all things, it would be good to understand in theory. > iv Kusala kamma is capable of producing vipåka and thus it is > a link in the Dependant Origination. Why does it still make > sense to perform kusala kamma? Well, I tend to see kusala kamma in terms of abstaining from akusala kamma, so in this sense a moment of kusala kamma deprives unwholesome roots of being nourished. I like this phrase, maybe from Thich Nhat Hahn: "The leaf nourishes the roots." A moment of kusala kamma (the leaf) nourishes the wholesome roots and deprives the unwholesome roots of nourishment that would make their sap run thicker and stronger. So these kusala moments (as abstaining from akusala) condition more of the abstaining from akusala, and the unwholesome roots get weaker and weaker, ever so gradually. Our purpose should be eradicating akusala rather than accumulating kusala, I think. If we think about the latter, there is too much self-gratification involved. Of course there is kusala that is not abstaining from akusala, but for beginners like myself it is easier to think in terms of abstention, in my opinion. Metta, Phil 41323 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Re: Right Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah - > > Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it > is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? > > Dan said, " It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and > the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they > are "right" or "wrong" as they arise". How was he able to "discern > clearly" about these two opposite words? Couldn the difference be > caused by a printing error? > > >============== Dear Tep, I think there is no printer's error, what made you wonder if there could be? Robertk 41324 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi RobertK - Thank you for asking, which indicates your willingness to correct my misunderstanding (if any). Why did I think about a printer's error? Because it is easier to see that both paragraphs are identical when 'wrong' is replaced by 'right'. However, it is not so easy to see that there could be two opposing viriyas (depending on whether akusala or kusala citta arises) that are exactly the same "up to that point" when the word 'wrong' appears. By the way, could the same reasoning apply to nana -- i.e. is there miccha nana that is identical in every aspect to samma-nana, except for the associated akusala/kusala citta? Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I think there is no printer's error, what made you wonder if there > could be? > Robertk 41325 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort, wrong effort. Dear Tep, 376: wrong endeavour (also wrong concentration, etc.) because it accompanies akusala citta. Akusala cetasikas accompanying akusala citta are dealt with in Ch VI: dvaadasa akusalacittaani. We see that it may accompany lobha-mulacitta and we may not notice it, very tricky. This is what Dan wanted to stress. Without satipatthana we cannot be sure. Nina. op 25-01-2005 20:29 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...:> > Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it > is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? 41326 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:23pm Subject: Myanmar photos Hello all, For those who were on the Myanmar trip a year or so ago, and found their cameras just couldn't do justice to the beautiful country, this website was posted on Buddha-L recently. This site holds a beautiful, high resolution slide show in both color and B&W of photographs taken in Myanmar (Burma) by photographer Len Gao. There are many scenes of Buddhist pagodas and temples as well as of the everyday life of the people. http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/mukto-mona/Articles/len/burma1.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 41327 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, > Welcome back to the forum. ----------------- S> Thanks, but I wasn't away, only I didn't have the stamina to read more than one or two posts at a time. --------------------- > Sukin: But maybe it is us who are on say, the left, and so even > someone in the middle would appear right, no? But I think this is > because our understanding of the Buddha's Teachings is still quite > superficial and the way we consider it is mostly philosophical and often > speculative. This is so even when we have come to the conclusion that > `direct experience' is what matters as against `intellectual appreciation'. > > Tep: Since your understanding of the Teachings is still quite > superficial, then how can you understand what the "direct experience" > is? Don't you think you must first start with some "intellectual > appreciation" of the Dhamma through reading the texts? First thing first, > right? S> Yes, but I was talking about the minimal understanding which at least appreciates the difference between direct and intellectual understanding. Yet coming to this conclusion can be from quite different understandings. Some, for some reason conclude that theory (pariyatti) can and should be dropped all together at some point. Others give pariyatti a more important significance, as a particular condition, panna, which is the necessary factor for patipatti. From my perspective, pariyatti is inferior to patipatti only in that the latter is direct knowing of that which the former points to. However, any decision which says to the effect that pariyatti should be abandoned, is in my opinion, based on wrong understanding. ----------------------------------------- > Tep: I don't think the Thai monks and lay people are misled like you > said, Sukin. Most Thais understand that 'patipatti' means the practice of > the Buddha's Teachings, and it consists of dana, sila, and bhavana. In > bhavana they do both samatha and vipassana. Further, sitting and > walking meditations are included in the bhavana. S> Yet were anyone to claim being a follower of the Buddha's Teachings and did not spend time to meditate, he would be reminded about `patipatti'. ;-) How many monks and laypersons do you know who equate patipatti with a moment of satipatthana, and how many of them would not think that to practice means to sit and meditate? Besides dana and sila without sati and panna to know the moment are just that, I don't think these should be considered patipatti otherwise. Parami is parami only in so far as there is knowing the moment for what it is, otherwise it just conditions a habit. -------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: The question of `how to practice' is I think misplaced. There are > only conditioned realities, some of which point to the wrong direction > and some to the right. Appreciating the value of those dhammas that > are positive is itself, positive. And if indeed there is any appreciation of > the anatta and other conditioned nature of these same dhammas, then > other positive dhammas may arise, like samvega, patience and > courage. > > Tep: Is the act of "appreciating the value" of the "conditioned realities" > same as contemplation of the their three characteristics(ti- lakkhana) > when you are alone? S> One may consider the difference between kusala and akusala or one may think about the visesa lakkhana of various dhammas or one may think about other conditions and any other aspects of Teachings. But yes, I think it is important to keep in mind the three characteristics. But why did you ask, "when you are alone"? ----------------------------------- > Tep continued: (it doesn't matter whether you are sitting or not) Or, > is it just some kind of casual reflection on the Dhamma while going > through your daily life activities? S> I wouldn't want to make this or any other aspect of the Teachings into `daily meditations' sort of thing. Otherwise the `self' would surely come in to try to arrange things. We don't know what level of akusala will arise at any given moment, likewise what level of sati and panna. This is why it is good to listen and consider more and more, because we need all sorts of reminders. We do however need to know the difference between samatha and vipassana. We should see the importance of developing panna as taught particularly by the Buddha. Also it is important to know clearly their difference. Else we may think that they are related in a way that could condition wrong practices. ------------------------------------------- > Sukin: There is certainly no call for `sitting' nor is there any `reason' to > `deliberately look'. From the stand point of someone who believes > in "doing" something, this will be perceived as thinking, "Let be, let it > be" in a fatalistic way, but samvega and khanti are accompanied by > viriya too, no? > > Tep: How strong is your viriya during a practice? Is it strong enough to > be Right exertion (a Path factor) to develop insight knowledges? S> Why the question of strength? And why be concerned about the `insight knowledge' at this point, or for the matter at any point? Are you thinking that there is some `short cut method', one that will bypass any lack of accumulated parami? Many people view meditation practice, particularly `jhana', in this way. They think that these are special techniques taught by the Buddha and developed by later `masters' (Zen, Dzogchen etc) for the purpose of getting to enlightenment `in this very life'. I think this is all symptomatic of `attachment to self'. ---------------------------------------------- > Tep: Just read the following sutta excerpt to get the idea. Note that it doesn't have > to be "fatalistic"! > > "There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case > where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the > abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of > the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the > maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right > exertions. > > "Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines > to the east, in the same way when a monk develops & pursues the four > right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to > Unbinding. -- SN XLIX.1 S> This is an oft quoted passage on dsg. As you do now, it has always been made to support the need for any `deliberate effort'. But do we have to interpret any of this as being but about the present moment. As you will agree, this is `vohara sacca'. More comments below. -------------------------------------- > Sukin: The only real obstacle to satipatthana is miccha ditthi and one > manifestation of this is the idea of `formal sitting' or that "Panna comes > from "deliberate cultivation"". Panna does indeed require > `development', in Thai `charoen', however this has nothing to do with > what we understand by `intention' or `deliberateness'. > > Tep: Part of the above sutta quote is "monk generates desire, > endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ...". All > these words (desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, uphold and exert > intention) points to "deliberate cultivation". S> Does it? I think they point to dhammas, all of them kusala and each performing their particular functions. The viriya here can't arise without sati and panna and none can arise without saddha. Cetana performs its very important function, but panna is the leader of a moment of satipatthana, which is what this passage is pointing to. -------------------------------------------- > Tep continued: Note that cultivation is the > same as development (look it up in a dictionary yourself). The word > deliberate implies something is done by choice, or intention, and that > its consequences are clearly understood. S> This is the "uninstructed worldling's" outlook. One of my favourite passages often quoted by Robert: << Thein Nyun in his preface to the Dhatu Kathu writes: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1. the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2. the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3. "I can perform" and 4. "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time and span of duration to carry out such functions".>> (end quote) I don't think that it is possible for a worldling to "clearly understand the consequence" of anything. ---------------------------------------------- > Tep: Further, the four right exertions above show clearly that the monk has > an intention, a purpose to develop and culminate his arisen skillful > qualities (kusala dhammas) towards Nibbana (as the goal). I think you > are talking about the one who is able to "know and see things the way > they really are", not about the mind of a worldling who has not reahed > that state. Before getting "there" you need "an act of will" with right > exertions; once there, no need for intention. S> No! I am talking about a "correct" intellectual grasp of the `way things are'. I am talking about the value of such moments, weak as they might be in terms of panna, that it sees the danger in "wrong practice" and is able to avoid it. I see this as requiring patience and courage and `self' not being drawn to "do" something. I think the difference between a Sotapanna and me is that I understand `intellectually' and quite superficially, what he understands in `experience' and deeply. However the theory must match the reality of practice. They must not conflict at any point of time. And at any time there is a `self' with an idea of "doing", I think such instances, the conflict is there and this expresses itself in silabattaparamasa. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep quotes: "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act > of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of > things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things > as they actually are". [Anguttara Nikaya XI.2 Cetana Sutta] S> The kind of concentration that is developed and fits the above description is one which has been trained to grow increasingly familiar with the characteristic of paramattha dhammas, i.e. satipatthana. This is not got from concentrating on concepts, including the objects of jhana. ------------------------------------------------------ > Tep continued: By the way, how would you, a worldling, develop Panna without > intention? Intention and othe nama dhammas like exertions are like the > raft that one uses to cross a river (attainment of lokuttara panna). But > when the river is crossed, there is no need for the raft anymore. S> Even the thought about "using as rafts", is conditioned. Dhammas like, sati, panna, viriya, samadhi, saddha and so on do the functions which lead to the goal, there is no `one' standing back "using" those dhammas. However the dhammas which underlie such a thought is I think, often quite inimical to the development of panna. ------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, > associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according > to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather "panna" > in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four > factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of `self', `other' and > `activity', then even this is wrong. > > Tep: Sure, you have to have "panna" in the present moment in order to > talk with friends and understand what they are talking to you, Sukin. But > this is not the wisdom that penetrates the Noble Truths. So you are still > unable to eradicate the personality views, regardless of what you think > about your panna. S> But a moment of understanding does accumulate and develop and it has to start from some where…… ;-) Thanks Tep for spending the time to respond and giving me the opportunity to reflect some more. Metta, Sukinder 41328 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: Lately I've been reconnecting to my Japanese language study, > so am trying to read Dhamma material in Japanese. This means > Mahayana, and I am finding some interesting variations. (It > seems "emptiness" often appears as a fourth characteristic) But I > will have to make a trek to the only Theravada temple in Tokyo to > pick up something, and will ask Rob K to send along the Japanese > translation of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" that his students are > working on. (He did before, but alas I lost it when the computer went > down in December.) ... S: Yes, Hugo shares your writing skills - I also enjoyed his account of his visits to the temples and I know yours will be memorable too:-).* Meanwhile, does this help: http://www.j-theravada.net/ Also, I think you have the English CMA. Maybe you'd be interested in the chinese copy- I think you'd follow without difficulty as the Pali is in Roman script, followed by the Chinese. (I think most Japanese readers can more or less follow...). It can be obtained FREE from this add: The PENANG Buddhist Association 168, Anson Road, 10400 Penang, Malaysia Metta, Sarah * James posted a nice pic in the photo album of himself in front of the temple he used to spend time in the States. Perhaps you,Hugo or anyone else might consider doing the same, just IF you happen to visit with your cameras, of course.... ====== 41329 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 0:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 108 - Concentration/ekaggataa (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå which has as function to focus on an object is translated as ‘one-pointedness’ or concentration. When we hear the word concentration we may believe that ekaggatå only occurs in samatha, tranquil meditation, but this is not so. It is true that when calm is developed ekaggatå also develops, but ekaggatå does not only occur in samatha. Ekaggatå accompanies every citta , although its quality is different as it arises with different cittas. Even when we are, as we call it in common language, ‘distracted’, there is ekaggatå arising with the akusala citta since it arises with every citta. It focuses on the object which is cognized at that moment. For example, when there is moha-múla-citta (citta rooted in ignorance) accompanied by uddhacca (restlessness), there is also ekaggatå cetasika accompanying that citta. There is ekaggata arising with all types of akusala citta. When we enjoy a beautiful sight or pleasant music there is ekaggatå cetasika with the lobha-múla-citta. At that moment we are absorbed in the pleasant object and enslaved to it. There is concentration when one performs ill deeds. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41330 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Dear Bhante, Howard, Hugo and all The Bhante mentions three reasons: why the Buddha did not answer the 10 questions: - Because they are indeterminable & thus rightly unanswerable. - Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. - Because they thus obstruct & destroy the only Way to Final Peace. I'm not sure all these three are mentioned in the Suttas, I thought only the third of them, is that correct? Because I've studied astrophysics, I have some problems with the first two answers about question 1-4: 1: Is the Universe Finite ? 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? I guess the main supposition for this four is that we have no information and cannot get it. These were indeterminable and thus rightly unanswerable 2500 years ago. But know we have enough information to give an answer (we think the Universe is finite, not eternal to the past and eternal to the future) So the second answer should be changed: - Because they can lead to truly endless speculative views. And the third is still correct. Metta Joop 41331 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi Tep & All, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Sarah - > > Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it > is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? …. S: As Nina has indicated, Dhs 13 falls under sobhana states and 376 under akusala states. A few more examples (From C.Rhys Davids’ transl of Dhammasangani): *** Part 1 ***Good*** States of Consciousness [5] What on that occasion is volition (cetanaa)? The volition, purpose, purposefulness, which is born of contact with the appropriate element of representative intellectation – this is the volition that there then is. * [7] What on that occasion is application of mind (vitakko)? The discrimination, the application, which on that occasion is the disposing, the fixing, the focusing (appanaavyappanaa), the superimposing of the mind (cetaso abhiniropanaa=aaramma.necittam….pati.t.thapeti), right disposing – this is the application that there then is. * [9] What on that occasion is zest (piiti)? The zest which on that occasion is joy, rejoicing at, rejoicing over, mirth and merriment, felicity (vitti), exultation, transport of mind (attamanataa cittassa) – this is the zest that there then is. * [11] what on that occasion is self-collectedness (cittass’ ekaggataa)? [Cy: ‘a name for concentration (samaadhi)’] The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet (samatho), the faculty and the power of concentration, right concentration – this is the self-collectedness that there then is. ======= Part 11 ***Bad*** States of Consciousness What on that occasion is….volition (cetanaa)…..? Answer as in [5] (above) * …..applied thought ((vitakko) Answer as in [7] (above), substituting ‘wrong intention (application etc)’(michaasankappo) for ‘best intention’. * …joy (piiti) Answer as in [9] (above) *……self-collectedness ((cittass’ ekaggataa)? Answer as in [11] (above), substituting ‘wrong concentration’ for ‘best concentration’. And of course, here for effort we read: * What on that occasion is the faculty of energy (viriyindriya.m)? Answer as in [13] (given in Dan’s message below), substituting ‘wrong endeavour’ for ‘best endeavour’. * In the Atthasalini (Cy to Dhammasangani) under ‘Immoral Consciousness’, we read further about (akusala) viriya: “And energy (viriya) is called the controlling faculty of energy by way of the controlling faculties, wrong endeavour by way of the Path factors, ‘strength’ of energy by way of the ‘strengths’, and support by way of the Final Pairs* –thus one state is referred to four categories.” *Dhs #1254 (pi.t.thiduka.m) about states to be put away and not put away. [Note: path (& jhana ) factors can be wholesome or unwholesome] Metta, Sarah >[Dhs. 13] "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. ========================== 41332 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > No problem, I know you have to read things from beginning. I > think you asked why I keep posting about the topic, only because > replies were directed to me. I'm a technical person and so I will > respond to what I feel are opinion pieces stated as facts. But I > guess the topic has ran it's course for me so I'll just leave it at > that. ... S: I appreciate and certainly see your keen interest in the details and persistence with these threads - I learn a lot from your questioning and responding(even if it's just to find out how little I really understand:-/). I'm sure all the points will come up again and I'll be genuinely interested to hear any more about the textual refs or details you or your abhid teacher raise on any threads. Metta, Sarah ======= 41333 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Right Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Why did I think about a printer's error? Because it is easier to see that > both paragraphs are identical when 'wrong' is replaced by 'right'. > However, it is not so easy to see that there could be two opposing > viriyas (depending on whether akusala or kusala citta arises) that are > exactly the same "up to that point" when the word 'wrong' appears. > > By the way, could the same reasoning apply to nana -- i.e. is there > miccha nana that is identical in every aspect to samma-nana, except > for the associated akusala/kusala citta? > > > ============= Dear Tep, I checked the English translations by C.A.F. Rhys davids (Pali Text Society) and also the one by U Kyaw Khine (Dept. for the promotion of the Sasana , Yangoon). Also what I could make of the Pali all confirm that the passage Dan quoted was well translated, with no printers errors. I repeat the passage: We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." You ask about miccha nana? yes indeed micchaanaa.na.m (translated as wrong knowledge in the text below): Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; .. .. from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......" Micchatta.m, bhikkhave, aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, micchatta.m aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa? Micchaadi.t.thikassa, bhikkhave, , micchaavaayaa..... massa micchaasati pahoti, micchaasatissa micchaasamaadhi pahoti, micchaasamaadhissa micchaa~naa.na.m pahoti, micchaa~naa.nissa ‚04 micchaavimutti pahoti When I was at a temple in thailand in the 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous) home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of pilgrimage and having heard about this temple came to stay. He had been there for about 6 weeks when I arrived and I was interested to meet him because I was thinking about visiting his center in the following year. He told me that when he first met the teacher where we were, he was asked about his understanding and experiences; when it became clear that the monk thought he had experienced nibbana the teacher told him he was simply fooling himself, (self-hypnosis he called it). Anyway over the next few weeks the monk came to see that he was indeed fooling himself and he was able to let go of the idea of being sotapanna or sakadagami or whatever he had thought. I got to know him well (apart from the teacher he and another long term resident were the only people I was permitted to talk to - a very strict temple). Anyway over the next month he had some more struggles-because the teacher insisted that not only had he not not attained nibbana, but he had not reached any stage of vipassana- including the first- namarupaparichedda. Eventually he accepted that and could start again, he saw how profound it is even to have a moment when the difference between nama and rupa is seen. The monk had had miccha nana and miccha vimutti (wrong knowledge and wrong release ). Robertk - 41334 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: Jhana Sources --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jhanananda wrote: > > Jhana> GREAT WESTERN VEHICLE > In an effort to provide support for those seeking to cultivate the jhanas > the Great Western Vehicle offers two services to the jhana bound > contemplative. Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks) ========== Dear Sotapanna Jhanananda, Welcome back to the list, I think the last time you were posting you were going to ordain as a Theravada monk. Am I reading right that you are now the leader (president?, not sure of the word) of a new branch of Buddhism? Robertk 41335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects Hi Larry, op 26-01-2005 02:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "It does not matter that only one object at a time can be known, > paññaa can understand whatever object appears to sati. This is an > important principle for the development of satipatthana. I can explain > again in another way if I did not make myself clear." > > L: I'm afraid we're going to have to say that reality is a concept > because it can't be experienced in its simultaneity. That is to say the > notion of many cetasikas arising at one time is a concept. N: When seeing arises, there are also rupas: visible object and eyesense, all these are there at the same time. They are real. The fact that they arise at the same time does not change them into a concept. Citta never arises alone, it needs cetasikas and these condition citta. Cetasika never arises alone, it accompanies citta and other cetasikas. Whatever arises is conditioned by other dhammas. When we consider different conditions it helps to understand that several dhammas arise together. Expositir, p. 90: explains about the King and his retinue, evenso citta does not arise singly but has its attendants. Another matter is: they can be experienced or understood by pañña only one at a time. Why? Because each citta can experience only one object. Seeing can only experience visible object, not sound. L: Maybe we have to say consciousess or cetasika arising _with_ an object or cognizing an object is also a concept. N: Citta and cetasika are real and the object experienced can be a reality or a concept. The object conditions citta and cetasikas by being their object, by way of object-condition. > L: As to the question of how do we experience cetasikas, maybe I should > rephrase it and ask when do we experience cetasikas. Is it only in mind > door processes? N: Yes, it is nama and nama is experienced only through the mind-door. Rupa can be experienced through a sense-door and then through the mind-door. L: Does the cetasika have to be an object of consciousness > in order to be experienced? N: Yes, no other way. L:Can we separate object and consciousness and only experience object? N: We, or rather, citta can experience another citta, and that is then the object at that moment. We better make an example. Seeing experiences visible object, and I think that you ask: can we separate the two and only experience visible object? When sati sampajañña arises in a following process it can understand one at a time: seeing or visible object. Just the characteristic that appears, and there is no need to think of the processes. No thinking about *when*, in which process, is necessary, that only complicate matters. L: The root consciousnesses are consciousnesses > infused with particular cetasikas. Does that same infusion of cetasika > and consciousness occur when we experience vedana or sanna? If so, in > what sort of citta process does this experience arise? N: I do not quite understand your question. Experience can be understood in different ways. The experience of vedana can be with ignorance and aversion: we just notice unpleasant feeling, or have aversion about it. Or it can be with pañña: it can be realized as only a conditioned dhamma, not mine. Roots pertain to our life now. It is hard to experience the characteristics of cetasikas and differentiate them from citta, only insight can. So long as the first stage of insight has not been reached, the characteristics of cetasikas cannot be known precisely. You realize that you only know them by thinking and that is why you believe that they are only concepts. Is that not so? Nina. 41336 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions, Bhante Samahita. Hi Howard, op 26-01-2005 00:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > BTW, I assume that "vitality of life" is what is also called "physical > life force". This is something the reality of which I have questioned in > talking with Nina. I now see that it is a notion that the Buddha directly > references in the Sutta Pitaka. So, perhaps it is a reality. N: It is a subtle rupa and these are difficult to understand for all of us. Hardness we all understand, but not the subtle rupas. Yes, in the M.N. 43, Mahaavedallasutta there is a reference: the five sense organs depend on vitality, aayusankhaara. The Co explains elsewhere the term aayu as jiivitindriya. But we cannot expect the mentioning of all rupas in the Suttas. As to nutrition, this is well explained in the sammaa-ditthisutta: four kinds of nutrition and one is physical nutrition. They are ahaara-paccaya. H:On the other hand, perhaps it is a fact, and one that the Buddha knew, that there actually is no such thing, with its being a reality being a false presupposition involved there. It may well be that in talking to people of his period the Buddha often tolerated some of the common understandings of the time such as Mount Sumeru and life force for purposes of driving home certain points. N: When reading the above-mentioned suttas I do not think so. We have to study what points the Buddha wanted to explain in which sutta. In the Mahaavedallasutta the difference between someone in the stopping of perception and feeling and a dead person is shown. A corpse does not have life faculty as I said before. In the sammaditthisutta ahaara-paccaya is shown. The rupa nutrition that pervades the body, arising and falling away, conditions other rupas, it maintains them. As to the ten points mentioned by Bhante Samahita, I had not seen them before and I am also curious to know where they are explained. Nina. 41337 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] QRe:Cetasikas' study corner 104 - Volition and Cycle of ...(quiz answers) Hello Phil, op 26-01-2005 03:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Every moment there is > life and death of citta. "When there is hearing, life is a moment of > hearing", for example. I only know this in theory, but again, knowing > it in theory even is so liberating. N: It reminds us not to get drowned in the ocean of concepts, concepts of our life we are so involved in. PH: Nina, I'll take a shot at the answers... I will strike while the > iron is hot. N: I will also strike while the iron is hot. Ph: > i How can we know that there is a next life? > > By examing our life now. Moment by moment, cittas are born and fall > away again. My insight is not developed in a way that allows me to > know this except in theory, but I can see it more directly in the way > mental mood moments come and go. ... > Also we can know that there is a next life because it is taught by > the Buddha. We learn things from the Buddha and hold them with faith > long before we can confirm them through experience. N: The first moment of life did not arise without conditions, it was conditioned by the past life. There is birth and death of citta at each moment and evenso the last citta will be succeeded by the next citta, the first citta of a following life. Only through insight will this be realized more clearly. Now we still may have moments of doubt or fear. > Ph: ii Which kinds of cetanaa are a link in the Dependant Origination? > > Both kusala and akusala kamma. At first I wouldn't have thought that > kusala kamma could be conditioned by ignorance, but because it leads > to a continuation of the cycle of birth and death, it is. Kusala > kamma is not accompanied by ignorance at the time it is done, but in > the sense of Dependent Origination it is still conditioned by > ignorance. N: There is the latent tendency of ignorance also when kusala citta arises. Ph: iii Why is cetanaa which accompanies magga-citta not kammaformation? > I guess because there is no result, no vipaka? The fuel has burned > out? To be honest, I always skip over material/discussions related to > magga-cittas, stages of enlightenment etc. It seems so very far away, > not a matter of relevance in this lifetime. But as with all things, > it would be good to understand in theory. N: Magga-citta leads to liberation from the cycle. Cetana in kusala citta and akusala citta leads to heaping up, like a wall built up by bricks. And magga-citta is like knocking down what was heaped up (Expositor, II, p 290), demolishing decease and rebirth. It is good to have some understanding of it, it helps us to see what the goal is. And the way. Magga-citta has a result: the fruition arising in the same process. But it is different from all other kinds of vipaaka. Magga-citta does not produce rebirth. Ph: iv Kusala kamma is capable of producing vipåka and thus it is >> a link in the Dependant Origination. Why does it still make >> sense to perform kusala kamma? > > Well, I tend to see kusala kamma in terms of abstaining from akusala > kamma, so in this sense a moment of kusala kamma deprives unwholesome > roots of being nourished..... > So these kusala moments (as abstaining from akusala) condition more > of the abstaining from akusala, and the unwholesome roots get weaker > and weaker, ever so gradually. Our purpose should be eradicating > akusala rather than accumulating kusala, I think. If we think about > the latter, there is too much self-gratification involved. N: This is very good. Any kind of kusala, not only abstention, helps to wear out defilements, if we see this as our purpose. If we do not want any gain for ourselves. Then kusala is purer, it is a perfection. Dana helps to wear out stinginess and egoism, for example. Appreciation of others' kusala is dana. We can do that wholeheartedly with gladness. Thank you for bringing up all these points, Nina. 41338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika, the list. Hi Larry, Excellent remarks, I am glad you mention these things. op 26-01-2005 03:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I didn't understand what the basis of being supplementary is (refering > to the 4 or-whatever-states). They don't look particularly different > from the other 27. Is this possibly just a stylistic flourish in the > categorization? Is there any significance to the order of this list of > 27? N: Abhidhamma Studies Ch IV, Ven. Nyanaponika helped me here. If it is on line perhaps Howard could help. The Expositor (p. 178) mentions someone who says: an unintelligent list, no connection or order. The Co refutes this. It is not a mere formal grouping, or a rigid classification. When taking up the Dhammasangani we shall see that several cetasikas are listed more than once under different aspects, such as understanding as faculty, or as power. The list ends with: sampajañña (sati and pañña), samatha, vipassanaa, paggaaha (grasp, which is the faculty of energy), avikkhepa (balance, self-collectedness, another word for ekaggata cetasika, one-pointedness or concentration). Thus, it is not a mere summing up, but it points to development, it is a dynamic list. Therefore, it does not need to be exhaustive. Ven. Nyanaponika states : If we understand this, it will help with our study of the Abhidhamma, also with other topics. These lists have to do with life, with development. They point to the goal. The Pentad of phassa (phassa-pañcaka), mentioned in the Expositor: these are the first five of the list of the Dhammasangani: contact, feeling, saññaa, volition and citta. These five are mentioned together with the or-whatever-dhammas in the Anupada sutta, after the jhana-factors, where Sariputta penetrates with insight the jhana-citta and cetasikas. Ven. Nyanaponika: Citta, feeling and saññaa are each a separate khandha, as we have seen. He states about the aggregate of mental formations: Thus, phassa and cetanaa. He explains that this points to the inseparableness of the four nama-khandhas. The Visuddhimagga, therefore, begins the list of sankharakkhandha with contact, and then volition, and after that the other cetasikas. All this illustrates the meaning of the list of the Dhammasangani; it points to the goal of our study, the development of pañña in order to attain liberation. This is inspiring. Does this answer your Q as to the order of the list of 27 the Visuddhimagga gives? If not, I can add more. There are 52 cetasikas in all, and we have to subtract the fourteen akusala cetasikas. Also feeling and sañña are not mentioned here, since the Vis. explains only formations. Thus, thirtysix are left. 27+4 supplementaries+ 5 inconstants=36. Nina. P.S. One remark about contact and feeling. Ven. Nyanaponika refers to Expositor p. 143, that explains that contact is mentioned first in the order of teaching. One could also say: there is feeling and contact, etc. There is no sequence in them, they arise together. While they arise together they condition one another. 41339 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: Experiences at various Temples in California --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > > And guess what! it was exactly what I was looking for! > > The essay is titled "Citta is Buddha" and I think is exactly the > answer to my question (What attains Nibbana?), at least I felt my > question answered. I will elaborate on this in another thread. > > > As a result of this jouney through three different monasteries I had > much better appreciation of having an English-speaking monk living > near my home. So if you have this great fortune, go to that monk and > thank him for being and staying there, I certainly did thank my > teacher for coming from Thailand. > > In the topic of thanks, I would like to thank Ven. Vimalaramsi and > many other Bhikkhus (e.g. those at SanghaOnline) who share their > experience on-line. > > -- > Hugo Hello Hugo, all, Perhaps I'm missing something here ... If your question was "What attains Nibbana'?" ... then I don't think a correct answer is "Citta is Buddha". Would you care to post a little more from the book the monk gave you to help us understand what the connection is? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 41340 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cosmique1000" wrote: > > Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not jhana > > object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is they > > take nibbana as their object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Title : Dialogue 2 Topics : Related topics raised by Sarah [and may be others] Now, the topic is magga citta and nibbana Participants: Sarah, Htoo, Cosmique (3rd participant now ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique wrote: Dear Htoo, When one says "magga citta sees nibbana", does it mean that "that magga citta exists while seeing nibbana", ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly. It does 4 jobs. Seeing nibbana is just one of 4 jobs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: or does "the act of seeing" occur after magga citta arises after the absorbtion in nibbana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not after. It is at the same time. Absorption arises at the same time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: The reason I am asking this question is that some theravada books say that when a practitioner "sees" or "touches" nibbana-dhatu his mind is suspended or ceased. In other words they equate nibbana and perception & feeling nirodhi. With metta, Cosmique ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think they are referring to nirodha-samapatti or cessation- attainment. If it is nirodha-samapatti or cessation-attainment it is yes. If not nirodha-samapatti then it is not like that. Because there are other dhammas like 36 cetasikas. In nirodha-samapatti there is no sankhara dhamma except kammaja-rupa or kamma-derived materials and aharaja-rupa or nutrment-derived materials. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41341 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions, Bhante Samahita. Hi, Nina - Thanks very much for the relevant feedback. In a message dated 1/26/05 5:46:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 26-01-2005 00:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >BTW, I assume that "vitality of life" is what is also called "physical > >life force". This is something the reality of which I have questioned in > >talking with Nina. I now see that it is a notion that the Buddha directly > >references in the Sutta Pitaka. So, perhaps it is a reality. > N: It is a subtle rupa and these are difficult to understand for all of us. > Hardness we all understand, but not the subtle rupas. Yes, in the M.N. 43, > Mahaavedallasutta there is a reference: the five sense organs depend on > vitality, aayusankhaara. The Co explains elsewhere the term aayu as > jiivitindriya. But we cannot expect the mentioning of all rupas in the > Suttas. > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41342 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (244) Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding niriya bhumi or hell realms all description would seem mythical or unreal. But divine eyes can see these hell realms. And there were different time and period that niriya bhumi or hell realms can be directly see by ordinary people. This portion can be skipped if do not want to read. Even though hell realm is talked as a single bhumi actually there are many hell places. In terms of suffering there are 8 different degrees or 8 different places or 8 different bhumis of niraya. They are 1.sinjiva niraya bhumi, 2.kalasutta niraya bhumi, 3.sanghaata niraya bhumi, 4.taapana niriya bhumi, 5.maha-taapana niriya bhumi, 6.yoyuva niraya bhumi, 7.maha-yoyuva niraya bhumi, and 8.avici niraya bhumi. Sometimes avici bhumi is referred to as maha- avici for stress or emphasis. There are 5 small hell stations in each face of east, west, south, and north of each of these 8 bhumis. So there are 20 substations or 20 small hell stations in each of 8 niraya bhumis and there are a total of 160 substations. There are 8 major stations or 8 main stations. All together there are 168 hell stations. There are beings who are responsible to handle hell beings. For example they arrange changing of hell rooms or hell stations. They punish hell beings with immeasurable suffering-giving punishment. There are also hell-dogs. They are gigantic dogs. There are razor-trees, razor-mountains and the handlers there have hell beings climb those razor-trees and if hell beings do not climb they punish them with whips or something like that. Sometimes these handlers have hell beings stay in burning ash ans sometimes they make hell beings stay in foul-smelling excreta pits. Avici is the worst of all. Avici is made up of 'a' and 'vici'. Vici means stoppage or interval when sufferings stop for a while. But in avici there is no such interval and hell beings in avici have to suffer from uninterrupted and continuous suffering. There is little chance to do kusala in niraya bhumi so called it is niraya. Ni means 'no' and 'rammati' means 'enjoy'. Niraya means 'nothing enjoyable exists'. It is said there is little chance. At a time there is a chance to see other realms and they see human realm, deva realms and their old kusalas are remembered and when their punishments are enough then they have to leave niraya bhumis. There is a king who rules the whole matter of niraya bhumis and he is known as Yamaraaja. Whenever a being arrives at hell stations he or she is asked what sort of kusala he or she has done and what sort of akusala he or she has done. If kusalas are many and he or she remembers the kusalas and when they were done with pure mind becuase of this they MAY be reborn in sugati bhumis again when they have to leave niraya bhumi immediately. This is something like some Islemic belief. The Buddha preached that the lifespan of hell beings are not fixed like devas and brahmas. Beings with unfixed lifespan are 1. hell beings 2. animals 3. hungry ghosts 4. demons 5. human beings Human lifespans are changing over time and era. It is said that human beings may live as short as 10 years to as long 100,000 years. Some may think that these are unthinkable and unimaginable. But world cycles are not permanent. When this current earth planet is totally destroyed by any reason then all the data currently recorded with respect to this planet earth will no more be valid and right. For example 24 hours a day will not be right. In actual term or in stricter sense 24 hours is not equal to a day. There are extra minutes each day and these minutes are corrected in each leap year. When this earth is destroyed another planet which might be the ground for beings may have 20 hours a day or 100 hours a day or anything. So all 4 woeful planes and human realms do not have fixed lifespan. Hell beings, petas or hungry ghosts, asurakaya or demons, devas, brahmas, human beings of the early earth (planet of dwelling) are born with fully matured forms and it is called opaapatika patisandhi. In niraya bhumis as soon as a being is there he or she is actually reborn there. If he or she has to leave soon then that means he or she dies and has to be reborn in other realm. As long as we are free of 12 akusala with respect to citta-uppada or arising of citta or free of 10 akusala with respect actions we will be free of rebirth in niraya bhumi or hell realm. 10 akusala kamma patha dhammas are 1. killing 2. stealing 3. sexual intrusion (having sex with married/nominated partner) 4. telling lies 5. telling divisive speech 6. telling hurting harsh speech 7. telling unfruitful tale-bearing speech 8. wishing to own other people's properties 9. wishing desturction of other people's lives, properties, fame etc 10.having wrong belief These 10 are kamma patha dhamma and as soon as these are done the cetana that arises in each javana citta serves as kamma and these kamma can give rise to effect as 1.patisandhi 2.pavatti Patisandhi is rebirth. This rebirth is apaya patisandhi or rebirth in 4 woeful planes. That vipaka citta is ahetula akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta. Pavatti means 'arising at dvara' or it is events that arise during the life time except patisandhi kala or rebirth time. These effects are 1. seeing- or eye-consciousness of bad things (cakku-vinnana citta) 2. hearing (sota-vinnana citta) 3. smelling (ghana-vinnana citta) 4. tasting (jivha-vinnana citta) 5. touching (kaya-vinnana citta) 6. receiving consciousness (sampaticchana citta) 7. investigating consciousness(santirana citta) Santirana citta does the job of linking and causes rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence. In pavatti kala or during life time santirana citta does the jobs of 1. bhavanga kicca or life-continuing function 2. cuti kicca or life-ending function 3. santirana kicca or investigating function 4. tadarammana kicca or retaining function We have done many akusalas in our past including this life. This is no doubt. But we do not need to worry. Because worrying adds further akusala. The most important thing is that 'not to be reborn in 4 woeful planes of existence'. If akusalas are not anantaariya kammas they are deferrable and even avoidable as unhappy-rebirth. Anantaariya kammas are akusala kammas that cannot be remediable by other means except being punished in avici niraya bhumi. Even The Buddha could not help His brother-in-law Devadattha who did many anantaariya kamma. Anantaariya kammas are 1. killing own father 2. killing own mother 3. killing arahats 4. division of Sangha 5. bruising to The Live Buddha May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Experiences at various Temples in California Hi Hugo, thank you for your interesting report. op 25-01-2005 16:21 schreef Hugo op eklektik@g...: > It seems as if my ego had some kind of > boost by thinking "hey now I am a Buddhist, Buddhism is the Truth, all > the Buddhists can see the truth" and now it felt betrayed. N: A very wise conclusion. Kh Sujin sometimes asks: who is a Buddhist. A label does not mean much. Do we practise what he taught, at this very moment, being mindful of nama and rupa? Yes, it is citta that attains nibbana. Good you were searching for the answer. You described that very well. Nina. 41344 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Experiences at various Temples in California --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Hugo, thank you for your interesting report. > > op 25-01-2005 16:21 schreef Hugo op eklektik@g...: > > > It seems as if my ego had some kind of > > boost by thinking "hey now I am a Buddhist, Buddhism is the Truth, all > > the Buddhists can see the truth" and now it felt betrayed. > N: A very wise conclusion. Kh Sujin sometimes asks: who is a Buddhist. A > label does not mean much. Do we practise what he taught, at this very > moment, being mindful of nama and rupa? > Yes, it is citta that attains nibbana. Good you were searching for the > answer. You described that very well. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Hugo and All, When I analysed Hugo's question 'What attains Nibbana?', I can see 3 representative words and their connection. 1. what 2. attains 3. nibbana 'What' is the answer that Hugo was looking for and let us assume it has not been answered. 'Attains' is an activity word for the subject 'what'. What may be animate or inanimate and it may be a single thing or many things. There are words like 'attain' 'contain' 'detain' 'obtain' 'retain' 'sustain' etc. All these indicte 'what the subject does'. So 'attains' in Hugo's question indicates 'gains' 'reaches' 'comes to' 'accomplishes' 'achieves'. 'Nibbana' is I think 'Hugo seems to be saying what all Buddhists refer to as nibbana. When this question is followed closely there will be 2 answers. 1. conventional answer 2. ultimate answer (which might be non-sense for some) For onventional answer, the question should have been 'who attain nibbana?' or 'who attains nibbana'. Answer 1: He who attained arahatta magga nana attains nibbana when he dies. Those who attained arahatta magga nana attain nibbana when they die. The marginal point that should be considered is 'the end of cuti citta of arahat or arahats'. When this marginal point is taken into consideration there is no one that attains nibbana even in conventional sense because everything ceases. That cessation is nibbana. Answer 2: There is no person at all. There is no other thing except 'citta' 'cetasika' 'rupa'. As each is a separate entity, no one attains anything. Citta attains citta, cetasika attains cetasika, rupa attains rupa. So nibbana will attain nibbana or nibbana will be attained by nibbana. As nibbana is not related to sankhara dhamma and sankhata dhamma nibbana is nothing to do with citta, cetasika, and rupa. When we are at this side we will still be dealing with citta, cetasika, and rupa. When we are at the other side we will not be dealing with anything. What is called 'to shift from this side to the other side'? It is called magga or Path. When we are talking nibbana at this side it is just interaction of dhamma and indicating way to attain nibbana. But when actual nibbana comes there is nothing except nibbana. So there is no khandha. There is no citta, no cetasika, no rupa and there is no one and there is not a thing. So 'what attains nibbana?' question has to be answered as answer 2: None attains nibbana. Or no one attains nibbana. I think 'conventional answer should be taken in this respect. Because the answer 2 is hard to believe but it is understood when dhamma is understood. If attainment of nibbana is thought at the time of arising of magga citta Nina is right. But if nibbana is anupadisesa nibbana no one or 'no thing attains nibbana'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41345 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:38am Subject: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 Dear Dhamma Friends, At another site which is run by Khanti Khema called 'dhammasukha' Khema wrote an article. It is nice. I replied her regarding her article. Here I post most of my replies there. Htoo wrote at dhammasukha: There is a forest. In that forest there are many many living things including animals and plants. Regarding animals there are many different kinds of animal. All the same there are many different kinds of plant in that forest. a)First we have to survey the forest and its geographical characteristics. Then choose a define site. b)Tall and large trees have to be cut down first. When this has been done there is a rough view that there will soon be a nice place to dwell. c)There are some short trees and bushes. These are also to be cleared away. After finishing this there is a good view that it is no more a forest at that site but it looks more like the dwelling place for mankind. d)There are still some low-lying grass and similar small plants and their seedling in the ground. All these have to be cleared away and then constructions are ready. Without survey we will never know the forest and then we will never know how to clear the forest. Our survey is to study Dhamma as 'pariyatti'. There are 3 saasanaa or 3 kinds of Buddha-teachings. They are pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. While theory or 'pariyatti' spells with 'pari', the other teachings spell with 'pati'. Pari or parikamma means 'preparation'. So theoretical learning is just preparation for the practice. Other 2 teachings spell with 'pati'. Pati or patti means 'achievement' 'come to' 'reach'. There are 2 kinds of reaching. The first is 'pati' + 'pati' or 'patipatti'. This means practically reaching that is 'reaching on practice'. The third kind is 'pativedha'. This is practical and penetration through all dhamma. Without preparation we cannot build the site. If the preparation is not enough then there are possibilities that disasters might happen. Example is if the site choose is close to oceans or close to volcanoes or anything like that. Example is dhamma is leaving out 'Abhidhamma' and just studying selected suttas. When practical terms come, this starts with cutting down of large trees and tall trees. This is like taking 5 precepts. People who are keeping 5 precepts are like noble ones but inside their mind there may still be bad things. This is like some trees and many kinds of bushes. These have to be cleared away by jhanas. When there are no more trees, small trees, bushes it is quite clear that the site is quite ready for dwelling. But when closely check there are different kinds of grass and weeds and their seedlings and some remaining roots of potential trees. If the site is to be free of destrction then all the remaining potentials have to be cleared away. This is like vipassana-panna. This is just a simile and this does not means jhana and panna are separate or together. Regarding clearing large trees, as KK said it is said that some keep precepts only in retreat period. This is wrong. There are many different approaches. But I would say that 'without survey' the constructions will not be successful. Even if successful, it will be destroyed at some point because of lack of proper survey. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41346 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 Dear Dhamma Friends, The conversation between Khanti Khema and Htoo Naing continued at dhammasukha site. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo wrote: Dear KK, Thanks for your reply. You wrote: Dear Htoo, I understand how strongly you support the position of Abhidhamma being taught in isolation first from the practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are not my exact words. This is your interpretation of my whole message. Did I say that 'abhidhamma being taught in isolation first from the practice'? I did not say so. This is your own remark and your own interpretation and I can see that you drew such a conclusion. But your conclusion does not represent my message. When you re-read my message you will clearly see what I meant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: However the three parts were meant to be taught as woven together and not separated and reading through the suttas one can relate to this conclusion. Also, I do not mean by reading a couple of suttas either. I am speaking of deep, methodical studying of hundreds of suttas related to the path and the approach to successful meditation. The separation of the parts of the path practices came in modern times, meaning from about 1,000 years ago. I am referring to: There are 3 saasanaa or 3 kinds of Buddha-teachings. > They are > pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see what you were referring to. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: One of the unique things about the Buddha was that he was not a confirmist to his modern day patterns of teaching. His way was a departure and a new middle way. Listeningn to Dhamma alone is not going to do it in most casses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you say 'in most cases' it may be right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Meditation in an isolated unfed sense will not either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the point that I have been discussing frequently. Simile here is sea-going practice. Meditation from the start without any knowledge is like going to sea without knowledge of sea and he will face with deadly danger, no doubt. Studying books without meditation is like someone who never goes to sea at all. [quote: Sir William Osler's phenomena of diseases and sea- going.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK wrote: Reading and studying and thinking will not do it either. As I have said before, it is only in embracing the connectedness or interwoven nature of the teachings that they will produce the end product. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But you are longing for end-product as far as I can see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: This is part of what has happened today. The teaching have become disconnected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Where happens? Which part of the world? Who disconnects the teachings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: I think a part of the reason this has occured is that there has a been a loss of teachers who can teach in the way the original teachers taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is your thought. This is your conclusion. This is your interpretation of situation. If you were being trained by an arahat I bet you would not be saying 'a loss of teachers'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: One cannot argue that there are many ways through which this could have taken place over time. If one part of the teachings was preserved better than another at apoint following disater, war,or famine, then that part would have come to the forefront for preservation and become dominent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are referring to some specific teaching [materials rather than teachings or contents of teaching]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: This simile you give us is a good example of the deviation in some ways. If I did all that you say to prepare my building site, I would not be exercising the muscles I needed in order to build my house (sit in meditation). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Similes are not the exact copies of referenced situations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Having trained so hard with thinking, my mind would be so full of information and it would be more difficult to let go of everything, stop thinking, and to learn to meditate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I would say it is totally wrong. Why? Because you have already said that you did not mean to study a couple of suttas but 100 or so suttas have to be learned. This is quite contrary to what you said here just above 'Having trained so hard with thinking, my mind would be so full....' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: You have seen how long people spend on a topic and how they love to go on about it. One thing leading to another concept and another and another.... When does it stop? At what pint do you turn it off and watch and discover for yourself? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmmm. This is a bit ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: As we say in here, when do you get down to the nitty gritty part? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is that? You are not saying in childish manner, I believe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: I will say one thing, it's a great excuse not to sit still. :-) I had one person tell me that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Like you, I would feel shocked to hear such thing 'not to sit still'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: There was a modern day teacher, pretty well known, who went to study in Asia I think in the late 70's and he went to find a meditation teacher. The teacher realized right off that he was operating totally intellectually and was reading tremendous amounts of information and studying and thinking a whole lot. After a couple of days, he told him that he was not to read at all. The guy was mortified/shocked! He had been consumed with the information! Then the teacher told him that he could spend 1/2 as much time reading that he spent time sitting in meditation. This was very difficult. He had a very hard time with letting go of all Abhidhamma immense complexities and getting back to the simple base of no thinking for good meditation. He had to let it go totally. He had a lot of trouble with this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as this part of your message approached I thought that this is no more 'you' even though it may still be you. Because the tone changes and number flaws appear fewer and fewer. This is a point that made me remember 'learning how to play a harp in 2 people' 'milking of goats' and many other things. The idea behind these 'milking goats' and 'learning harp-playing' sounds near-right. But in actual term it is wrong and it is totally wrong to assume in such way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: I read in one post on the DSG site that one well respected teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not advocate meditation as a part of this path at all! There is no question that this is a departure from the intended balanced approach of the three parts of training. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: The thing is that Abhidhamma originally meant "Higher Learning" and, in my opinion, can be valuable to the meditation student who has an established successful practice and is secure is releasing all thoughts first. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thought releasing? Someone thought that it is hard to do so. That is why he used a simile that zero-knowledge student will cost £50 while 2-year-learned student will cost £500. Because $450 is for erasing the existing knowledge. This is wrong in dhamma setting. But if already-packed knowledge were maccha-nana or wrong things this may be used right here. But if already-existing knowledge is right one then the whole simile does not work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Once the student can see the rpocess clearly at the bare simple level, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I believe this is you, KK. :-) Because --- see! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: then if they feel they want to stretch their minds to go into more complexities about it. I do not believe it was used in the beginning stages of teaching as a preparatory method for the practice and may even be detrimental by filling the mind with so much information. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is utterly wrong. If so why are you studying more than 100 suttas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: It is so full of thinking, sorting, and that sort of thing. However, different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Puccheyya - should ask. Cinteyya - should think out. Suteyya - should learn. Dhareyya - should bear or practise. Are you destroying part of Path? If so how will the bridge work when it is destroyed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Preparatory work for simultaneously done with the Meditation practice involves the purification of mind and body. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there is no understanding of 'what impurities are' how one will stay in purity or stay with 'purification of mind and body'? I do not think so one can [without understanding]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK wrote: y carrying out the parts of the 8-fold path in a relationship to the practice, one comes well down the road to understadning the purpose of the purification and attaing results which are fully applicable into life. Discussing the 8-fold path in this way is for another conversation I think. If the practice of the path is leading the practitioner to harmonious practice of meditation and good balance or harmony in their lives then it is working correclty. I enjoyed your comments and hope we continue to share approaches and interpretations. Much Metta. KK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, this time your messages have only a few typos. Otherwise they are perfect. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the end of the current conversation. If there are more conversations then I would share with you for studying Dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41347 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 3 c On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:56:28 +0100, nina wrote: > I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about Lodewijk¹s health > and she answered that worry is only nåma. I found this answer like a cold > shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the truth. The following excerpt (or transcript) was taken from a Dharma talk present by Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso during the Global Buddhist Conference 2000 in Singapore, which was held on the 3rd and 4th June 2000. That is why when someone comes to a Buddhist monk with a problem, they don't usually get too much sympathy, "Oh, you poor thing!". I would say "What are you doing about it?". See what you can do to make it a worthwhile lifestyle. Excerpt taken from the last paragraph at: http://www.geocities.com/heartland_sg/homosexnqueerness.htm Greetings, -- Hugo 41348 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:11am Subject: Re: Q. Experience of objects Hi Nina (and Larry), If I may butt into this conversation: Nina: Citta never arises alone, it needs cetasikas and these condition citta. Cetasika never arises alone, it accompanies citta and other cetasikas. Whatever arises is conditioned by other dhammas. When we consider different conditions it helps to understand that several dhammas arise together. Expositir, p. 90: explains about the King and his retinue, evenso citta does not arise singly but has its attendants. James: This is precisely why I have questioned the existence of cetasikas. If cetasikas never arise alone, how does one know that they exist? In your opinion, why does the Abhidhamma contain this kind of classification? The Abhidhamma could simply list the various types of cittas, which would consider their different characteristics, and not bother with creating this type of separate category. What is the point? Am I making myself clear? For some reason, I doubt that I am. Okay, to get more technical, the introduction to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha by Bhikkhu Bodhi states: "One is the employment, in the main books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, of a matika -- a matrix or schedule of categories -- as the blueprint for the entire edifice. This matrix, which comes at the very beginning of the Dhammasangani as a preface to the Abhidhamma Pitaka proper, consists of 122 modes of classification special to the Abhidhamma method. Of these, twenty-two are triads (tika), sets of three terms into which the fundamental dhammas are to be distributed; the remaining hundred are dyads (duka), sets of two terms used as a basis for classification.[3] The matrix serves as a kind of grid for sorting out the complex manifold of experience in accordance with principles determined by the purposes of the Dhamma. For example, the triads include such sets as states that are wholesome, unwholesome, indeterminate; states associated with pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neutral feeling; states that are kamma results, productive of kamma results, neither; and so forth. The dyads include such sets as states that are roots, not roots; states concomitant with roots, not so concomitant; states that are conditioned, unconditioned; states that are mundane, supramundane; and so forth." James: Now, it seems to me reasonable to distinguish cittas based on the triads and dyads as described above because these are classifications where are clearly separate. In other words, a pleasant feeling isn't ever going to also be a painful feeling (at the same time) and a root condition isn't ever going to be a non- root condition (at the same time), etc. However, cittas and cetasikas occur at the same time. What is there to differentiate between them? Why aren't they seen as just different types of cittas? The introduction that I just quoted has this to say about cittas and cetasikas: "A second distinguishing feature of the Abhidhamma is the dissection of the apparently continuous stream of consciousness into a succession of discrete evanescent cognitive events called cittas, each a complex unity involving consciousness itself, as the basic awareness of an object, and a constellation of mental factors (cetasika) exercising more specialized tasks in the act of cognition." James: I'm not entirely sure what a `constellation of mental factors' is supposed to mean. This description, to use an analogy, reminds me of mixtures of things: like ice cream with nuts-candy- fruit, or soup with vegetables-meat-pasta, etc. However, in each of these cases, the various ingredients can be separated. We can say "Here is the ice cream and here are the nuts" or "Here is the soup base and here are the vegetables". But can the same thing be said for cittas and cetasikas? Can one say "This is the citta and this is the cetasika"? If they can never be separated, I don't see how. What really exists are various types of cittas and the additional category of cetasika seems to be for organization's sake rather than an actual dhamma. What do you think? (Beyond a restatement of the fundamentals?) This has perplexed me since I first read about cetasikas. Metta, James Ps. If you tell me that cetasikas can only be differentiated from cittas by `insight', I would like you to explain precisely what you mean. Otherwise, you might as well just say "It's MAGIC"! ;-)) 41349 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:05am Subject: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 24 conditions. There are 24 paccaya. There are 24 conditioning conditions. Among them sahajata paccaya or co-nascence condition is an interesting condition. There are cause and effect in Dhamma. In sahajata paccaya or conascence condition these cause and effect arise together. 'Sahajata paccayo 'ti - cattaaro khandhaa aruupino annamannam sahajata paccayena paccayo'. Saha means 'together' 'in parallel with' 'at the same time' 'coming together'. Jati or jata means 'arising' or 'coming up'. Sahajata means 'coming together up'. Paccaya means 'support' 'condition' 'supported condition' 'cause' 'the cause'. So sahajata paccaya means 'the condition that come together with the result'. 'ti or iti means 'like this' 'as such' . So 'sahajata paccayo' are '' cattaaro khan--- -- -- -- paccyo''. Cattaaro means 'these 4 dhammas'. Khandhaa means 'aggregates'. Aruupino means 'non-material'. So cattaaro-khandhaa-aruupino means 'these four non-material aggregates are'. Annamannam is made up of 'anna' and 'annam'. This means 'each other'. That is one is to another and that another is to the former one and this is 'each other'. It can be said they are acting 'one aonther'. These 4 khandhas serves as 'annamanna sahajata paccaya'. This means that one serves as paccaya dhamma to other three khandhas. Again each of other 3 khandhas also serves as paccaya dhamma to the other three khandhas. To understand this it is essential to understand 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates, without knowledge of these 5 khandhas sahajata paccaya especially annamanna sahajata paccaya will not be understood. Five khandhas or panca-kkhandhas are 1. rupa-kkhandha or material aggregates 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling-aggregates 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception-aggregates 4. sankhara-kkhandha or formation-aggregates 5. vinnana-kkhandha or consciousness-aggregates It is easy to write in simple English. But they will need further explanations. Material aggregates will not mean anything to non- Buddhists if it is left unexplained. In the realm of nama-rupa interaction rupa also have a clear role. Without rupa, cittas and cetasikas cannot arise with a few exception when in arupa brahma realms. In the setting of nama-rupa interaction, we need to take an example. Let us take an example of an event of seeing. You see something or someone sees something. There happen arising and falling away of dhammas. They are vanna or colour of different shapes and different forms serving as 'rupaarammana' or 'the object for eye-consciousness or seeing-consciousness or cakkhu-vinnana citta. That vanna is a rupa and it is rupa-kkhandha or material aggregate. In the same process there has to arise cakkhu pasada or cakkhuppasada or eye-sense-base. It is another rupa or material and it is also material aggregate or rupakkhandha. While vanno or colour is serving as 'aarammana' or object, cakkhu pasada rupa is serving as dvara or door for the whole series of cittas. Cakkhu pasada rupa also serves as a vatthu or ground for related cittas and cetasikas. Through out the process there are 14 vithi cittas. 1. pancadvaravajjana citta has 'upekkha vedana' or indifferent feeling. 2. pancavinnana citta or cakkhuvinnana citta here has 'upekkha vedana' or indifferent feeling. 3. sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness also has upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling. 4. santirana citta or investigating consciousness may have upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling or may have somanassa vedana or mental joy. There are 3 santirana cittas or 3 investigating consciousness. One is upekkha santirana of akusala vipaka and another is upekkha santirana of kusala vipaka and still there is a third santirana and it is kusala vipaka and it has somanassa vedana or mental pleasure. 5. votthapana citta or determining consciousness which is manodvara- vajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. It has upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling. This 5th vithi citta is followed by 7 successive javana cittas. 6 to 12. javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness. As this example is pancadvara vithi vara javana cittas will be those of pancadvara vithi vara. There are 29 javana cittas at 5 sense doors. These 29 javana cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 1 hasituppada citta, 8 mahakusala cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas. Among them 4 lobha cittas are somanassa cittas or consciousness with mental pleasure, 1 hasituppada citta is a somanassa citta, 4 mahakusala cittas are somanassa cittas and 4 mahakiriya cittas are somanassa citta. So there will be 13 somanassa kama javana cittas. 2 dosa cittas are domanassa cittas and they have mental displeasure. All other remaining cittas in 29 cittas are upekkha cittas and they are 4 upekkha lobha cittas, 2 upekkha moha cittas, 4 upekkha mahakusala cittas and 4 upekkha mahakiriya cittas. So there are 13 somanassa cittas ( 4 lobha, 1 hasituppada, 4 mahakusala, 4 mahakiriya ), 2 domanassa cittas ( 2 dosa mula cittas, and 14 upekkha cittas ( 4 lobha, 2 moha, 4 mahakusala, 4 mahakiriya). The vedana cetasika in these cittas are vedana-kkhandha or feeling- aggregates. After 7th javana citta there follow 2 successive tadarammana citta or 2 retention-consciousness. These 2 cittas just retain the existing 'arammana' until the 2nd tadarammana citta passes away. These tadarammana cittas are 11 cittas ( 3 santirana cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas ). Again they do have vedana or feeling. One santirana is somanassa citta and another 2 santirana cittas are upekkha cittas. 4 of mahavipaka cittas are somanassa cittas and other 4 are upekkha cittas. So there are 5 somanassa cittas and 6 upekkha cittas in 11 tadarammana cittas. The vedana in each of these 11 cittas are vedana-kkhandha or feeling-aggregates. Again each citta in above example has sanna or perception and they are called sanna-kkhandha or perception-aggregate. There are 52 cetasikas in total in terms of character. One is vedana and another is sanna each of which has separate khandha and there left 50 cetasikas. In the above example vithi vara there are 14 vithi cittas. After exclusion of vedana and sanna what left is sankhara-kkhandha or formation-aggregates. Formations are like viriya or effort, manasikara or attention, dosa or aversion etc etc and they are forming their specific roles and so they are called formation or sankhara-kkhandha. All 14 vithi cittas here in this example are vinnana or consciousness and they all are known as vinnana-kkhandha or consciousness-aggregates. After exclusion of rupa-kkhandha all other 4 khandhas known as nama- kkhandhas serve as 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' to each other. That is vinnana-kkhandha or consciousness-aggregates serve as conascence condition for vedana-kkhandha or feeling-aggregates. Vinnana are here in above example 14 vithi cittas also serve as conascence condition for sanna-kkhandha or perception-aggregate. Each of 14 cittas has sanna or perception. This perception is conditioned by vinnana-kkhandha as conascence condition. By the same token vinnana-kkhandha or these 14 cittas also serve as conascence condition for their associated cetasikas except vedana and sanna who are separate aggregates. As each khandha serves to each other to other 3 khandhas this kind of conditional relationship is known as 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality-conascence condition'. Patthana Dhamma page 64 and page 65 are now ready to serve. This whole message is from page 65 and there are extra words after the passage 'After exclusion of rupa- kkhandha -- -- to each other'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41350 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Experiences at various Temples in California On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:14:49 -0000, Philip wrote: > > I really enjoyed this! Thanks a lot. And welcome back. > Now that my computer is working again I can track down the > location of the Theravada temple in Tokyo (I think there's only one) > and hopefully visit it soon and report in the same way. Hopefully > posting this intention will condition actually doing it! The Phil I refered to in my posting is you, BTW. :-) I will be waiting for your report, hopefully that will help you actually write the report, consider it a friendly Dhamma imposition. :-) -- Hugo 41351 From: nina Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 d Pilgrimage India 3 d Through satipatthåna we shall have more understanding of life and death. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (V, Mahåvagga, Book III, Ch 2, § 3, Cunda) that the novice Cunda was in attendance on Såriputta who passed finally away. Cunda and Ånanda came to see the Buddha and told him about Såriputta¹s passing away. Ånanda said that he was distressed by his death. The Buddha asked him whether when Såriputta passed away he took with him the constituents of virtue, concentration, wisdom, release and release by knowing and seeing. Ånanda answered that he did not and spoke the following words: ³But he was to me an adviser, one who was well grounded. He was an instructor, one who could arouse, incite and gladden. He was unwearied in teaching the Norm [Dhamma]. He was the patron of those who lived the righteous life along with him. We bear in mind that essence of the Norm, that patronage of the Norm possessed by the venerable Såriputta, lord.² ³Have I not aforetime declared to you this, Ånanda, - how in all things that are dear and delightful there is the nature of diversity, the nature of separation, the nature of otherness? How is it possible, Ånanda, in the case of what is born, what is become, what is compounded, what is transitory,- how is it possible to have one¹s wish fulfilled: Oh! may it not perish? Nay, such a things cannot be.² We then read that the Buddha exhorted Ånanda to be an island to himself, a refuge to himself, taking no outer refuge, but to take the Dhamma as his refuge in developing satipatthåna. Through satipatthåna we can gradually learn that in the ultimate sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, nåma and rúpa. Acharn Sujin asked me: before becoming Nina, what was there? There was a previous life but we do not remember this now. From the moment of our birth we lead our present life, we are ³this person², and we experience happiness and suffering. However, in the ultimate sense, no person exists, neither in this life nor in the preceding life. There are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Each citta that arises falls away immediately to be succeeded by the next citta. This can be seen as momentary death and birth. Thus, when it is time to depart we do not lose anything, it is the same as the departure at the end of our former life. In the next life there will be again the experience of different objects, nåma and rúpa, which arise and fall away. It is fortunate that in this life we still have the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. **** Nina 41352 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inferential Analysis is Also Important On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:52:05 EST, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Although it is important be to aware of actual states as they arise, > transform, and fall...change; it is also an important part of the Buddha's teaching to > be able to analyze things inferentially. Perhaps every bit as important. [...] > Based on this, I could go around saying -- the Buddha taught imagination as a > way to become enlightened. And I'd have grounds to support that claim! > > The fact of the matter is, the Buddha taught these methods, as well as > directly knowing the changing nature of actual experience, as methods to overcome > attachment. They are both important. The Buddha taught the Middle Way, so for those who are walking on the left he told them "go to the right", for those who are walking on the right he told them "go to the left". Therefore we can't take any single technique/method and say that is the only way because if we just look at one single technique/method, we might end up at any of the sides of the way and not the middle. The key part is to develop wisdom so we can find out if, when, how and for how much time any technique/method is useful. For those who don't think and keep behaving like animals just satisfying the desires generated by the kilesas, he said "think!", for those who think too much and get lost in the ocean of mental fermentations he said "stop thinking!", which one then is the right answer.....both or none. Wisdom will tell you when and how to think. Greetings, -- Hugo 41353 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hello Sarah, On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:11:12 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > * James posted a nice pic in the photo album of himself in front of the > temple he used to spend time in the States. Perhaps you,Hugo or anyone > else might consider doing the same, just IF you happen to visit with your > cameras, of course.... I haven't visited any temple with a camera yet, but there are pictures of the monastery I visit available at: http://mambo.dhammasala.us/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=105&catid=2 The website is still under construction though. On the topics of photos, I went to a ceremony (requisites offering) where one of the monks took pictures of us :-) The monks sitting on their little platform just before the ceremony starts and all the laypeople sitting on the ground, then one of the monks pulls out a camera and takes a couple of pictures. It was funny, this is the first event I have seen where the "panelists" take photos of the "audience". Greetings, -- Hugo 41354 From: cosmique Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 ----In nirodha-samapatti there is no sankhara dhamma except kammaja-rupa or kamma-derived materials and aharaja-rupa or nutrment-derived materials.---- Dear Htoo, Thanks for your answer. It is rather clear on the one hand, on the other hand I am even more confused now. I thought the highest goal in Buddha-dhamma was to reach or realize the state of nibbana. And I believed nirodha and nibbana were the same state. 1. Then what is the purpose of nirodhi-sammapati? 2. Is it a higher achievement than nibbana? 3. Is magga citta present in parinibbana or after arahant’s death? The question 3 is posed for the following reason: if after the arahant’s death there is no more any citta left, therefore this state is equivalent to the state of nirodhi-samapatti where there is no citta either. And in reverse order, if nibbana seen by magga-citta is not the same as nirodhi-samapatti, then parinibbana after the arahant’s death is not just mindless state. Thanks, With mahametta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. --------------------------------- Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail 41355 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Experiences at various Temples in California Hello Christine, On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:02:23 -0000, Christine Forsyth wrote: > Perhaps I'm missing something here ... > If your question was "What attains Nibbana'?" ... then I don't > think a correct answer is "Citta is Buddha". If you read Buddha as "Gotama Sidhatta", it doesn't look like a correct answer, but read on. Actually once I returned home I found out that the booklet is one of the many teachings of Luang Pu Dun and also found out that my teacher had translated the same teaching and something more: Source: http://dhammasala.org/theheart.htm And my teacher added this translation note: With regard to the talks and anecdotes here, the first, "Citta is Buddha" is by far the best known. It is this talk that forms the title of this book, "The Heart is Knowing". The word "Heart" is not a totally satisfactory rendering of the Pali word "Citta" but it does accord with much of the same meanings and senses as used in English. For those who prefer, the word "Mind" may also be used as a translation for the word "Citta". Through most of the translation I have usually used the Pali word "Citta" without translating it.. The word "Buddha" in this talk does not refer to the Lord Gotama Buddha but means "knowing", "understood", "Enlightenment". It is important to understand this before reading that particular talk. I found my answer, exactly as Htoo described it!!! (I liked the analysis) I agree with you Htoo, except maybe for answer #1: Htoo: He who attained arahatta magga nana attains nibbana when he dies. I think you can attain Nibbana when "you are alive". I didn't have much time to ask my teacher but I asked if first you get Enlightenment and then you attain Nibbana, trying to imply that you get Enlightened when you are alive and you "get" Nibbana once you die. He said that Enlightenment and Nibbana are the same, therefore I conclude that you can attain Nibbana while alive. On the other hand if Nibbana is the cessation of everything, and "you are alive" means that 5 khandas are still walking around, that seems to imply that you attain Nibbana only ofter you die. I have scanned the booklet and made a PDF file out of it, if you want it, let me know, or you can read it on-line from the translation written by my teacher. Greetings, -- Hugo 41356 From: seisen_au Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Dear Htoo and All, Is rupa and citta/cetasika ever considered annamanna sahajata paccaya? I'm thinking of examples such as the heart base and citta or the eye base and seeing consciousness? Thanks Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 24 conditions. There are 24 paccaya. There are 24 > conditioning conditions. Among them sahajata paccaya or co-nascence > condition is an interesting condition. > > There are cause and effect in Dhamma. In sahajata paccaya or > conascence condition these cause and effect arise together. 41357 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects Hi Nina, You said we experience a cetasika only when it is an object of consciousness and only in a mind door process. Would that be mind-door adverting consciousness adverting to a cetasika that is the experience of a cetasika? Wouldn't this be two experiences, adverting and the cetasika? Also you brought up the case of sati identifying rupa as distinct from 5 door consciousness. How would this work? Say there is a 5-door process with visible data as object. Then the mind door process begins with adverting to visible data, followed by sati javana cittas identifying this as visible data. However, there doesn't seem to be an experience of visible data separate from consciousness. At best there is only an understanding of visible data as separate from consciousness. I don't see how this understanding can be anything other than a reasoned understanding, though words may not be necessary. N: "So long as the first stage of insight has not been reached, the characteristics of cetasikas cannot be known precisely. You realize that you only know them by thinking and that is why you believe that they are only concepts. Is that not so?" L: Yes and no. We all experience cetasikas but it is difficult to fit that experience into citta process. Also, I don't see how anyone, even the Buddha, can know through direct experience that 2 dhammas arise at the same time. Surely this also is a matter of reasoned analysis. Larry ps: What is desired is as close as what is rejected. What is rejected is as far as what is desired. [Just something I was thinking about today.] L. 41358 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika, the list. Hi Nina, Thanks for the exensive reply regarding matika. I can see I'm going to have to get a Dhammasangani. Larry 41359 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Vism.XIV,134 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 134. Herein, (i) it touches (phusati), thus it is 'contact' (phassa). This has the characteristic of touching. Its function is the act of impingement. It is manifested as concurrence. Its proximate cause is an objective field that has come into focus. [As to its characteristic], although this is an immaterial state, yet it occurs with respect to an object as the act of touching too.60 And [as to its function], although it is not adherent on any one side61 as eye-cum-visible-object and ear-cum-sound are, yet it is what makes consciousness and the object impinge. It is said to be manifested as concurrence because it has been described as its own action, namely, the concurrence of the three [(cf. M.i,111), that is, eye, visible object, and eye-consciousness]. And it is said to have as its proximate cause an objective field that has come into focus because it arises automatically through the appropriate [conscious] reaction and with a faculty when the objective field is presented. But it should be regarded as like a hideless cow (S.ii,99) because it is the habitat62 of feeling. ---------------------- Note 60. ' "As the act of touching too": by this he shows that this is its individual essence even though it is immaterial. And the characteristic of touching is obvious in its occurrence in such instances as, say, the watering of the mouth in one who sees another tasting vinegar or a ripe mango, the bodily shuddering in a sympathetic person who sees another being hurt, the trembling of the knees in a timid man standing on the ground when he sees a man precariously balanced on a high tree branch, the loss of power of the legs in one who sees something terrifying such as pisaaca (goblin)' (Pm. 484-85). Note 61. For 'non-adherent' see par. 46. ' "On any one side" means not sticking (asa'msilissamaana). It is only the impact without adherence that contact shares with visible data and sound, not the objective field. Just as, though eye and ear are non-adherent respectively to visible data and sounds still they have the word "touched" used of them, so too it can be said of contact's touching and impinging on the object. Contact's impingement is the actual concurrence (meeting) of consciousness and object' (Pm. 485). Note 62. Adhi.t.thaana--'habitat' (or site or location or foundation): this meaning not given in P.T.S. Dict. 41360 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:58pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Kel, We agreed that conceit could not help us to practise satipatthana. Nor can any other akusala mental activity. That's why I can't see deliberate practices as having any effectiveness. Moreover, as Sukin points out, belief in a deliberate practice reinforces wrong view - it denies the laws of conditionality. ----------------------------- Kel: > No but understanding the convential truth is what leads to higher understanding of the absolute truth. As an example, one of my teachers keep telling us to observe the mind. He said once it's really pure, all the associated intense vedana will fall away. I thought my mind looks pure, and repeated observation wasn't doing anything to vedana. > ------------------------------ I don't necessarily disagree with what you say here. Sati and panna can observe the mind, but there is no deliberate (conventionally real) practice by which we can make it happen. Citta is too fast. ----------------- Kel: > Then one day I was sweeping the floor of dhamma hall and it looked clean. But after a few strokes, there was a pile of dirt. The more I keep sweeping the dirt keeps accumulating and I understood what the teacher meant then. It just looks clean to my untrained eye but repeated observing is same as repeated sweeping and hopefully slowly cleaning the dirt in the mind. I'm just saying for me that's how I understood the teaching with a convential example. ------------------ Thanks, I like that example. I think it is about 'understanding' rather than about 'deliberate practice.' ------------- KH: > > You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question [of anatta]' but we > Kel: You can give a river a name and it exists. There's a definite path it takes. But ask if it's the SAME river then the answer is no as its always in a flux. If a snapshot can be taken in time and space of the river and ask if it exists then it most certainly does. -------------- If, by 'snapshot of the river' you are alluding to the presently arising five khandhas, then I concede you are not sidestepping the question. :-) If, however, you mean a [still] image of a living being - with arms, legs, eyes and ears - then, no, that would not be the reality taught by the Buddha. There is no being with the power to touch, see and hear. --------------------------------- KH: > > there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be willed to arise > > Kel: > There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be predestined. ------------------------------------ Fair enough, but let's not sidestep anatta by seeing the equivalent of a self in cetana: it is just a conditioned dhamma. --------------- KH: > > but the teaching is to know the present reality. It is not to have concern for the future. > > Kel:> Because knowing the present moment leads to no attachment of a particular future. Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything? -------------------- Good question! Why do anything when there is no self to reap the rewards? The Dhamma is not about doing anything: it is about understanding the present moment. The present moment is all that exists, so it is all there is to understand. ------------- KH: > > Putting off will never condition > satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. > > Kel: >The point is when akusala is at full power, it's like trying to stop a moving train. You'll just crushed instead. You need to stop it in the beginning when the momentum is low or before it even starts. A proper practice will prevent it from gaining full power. Once it's there, only time will dissipate it. > ------------- If that is what the Buddha taught then, I agree, that is what we should understand. But is it? I think there is a lot of confusion between vipassana and jhana. Jhana requires the meditator to concentrate on the same concept for many consecutive cittas. So the meditator needs a quiet remote place with no distractions. However, in vipassana practice there is no need to concentrate on concepts even for a moment. (Except, perhaps, for a tiny, elite group of disciples who could take jhana citta as an object of vipassana.) Regards, Ken H 41363 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Another Attempt Hi all - Twice I have tried to forward to the list Bahnte's reply that was intended for DSG bu inadvertently mailed directly to me. The forwarding didn't work. So this time I'm doing a cut & paste! ;-) Bhante's post is copied at the end. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) **************************************** Subj: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable Questions. Date: 1/26/05 1:50:37 AM Eastern Standard Time From: bhikkhu_ekamuni@y... To: upasaka@a... Sent from the Internet (Details) Howard asks: > I think it would be very useful if it were possible to discern in > each inderterminable case what those false presuppositions are! OK here some of them come: > > 1: Is the Universe Finite ? > > 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? A) Let's say you by mind could travel beyond the speed of light out there in the mighty space. Whether you hit or did not hit any sort of boundary: What could you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further out 'behind this' percieved boundary! B) As the 'ALL' and thereby also 'The Universe' really is nothing but a constructed perception & as such a kind of 'Internal' phenomena; What can you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further 'internal' hidden inside, behind & beyound the mere imaginary appearance of this perception! > > 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? However long one wait to see by direct experience that the Universe is Eternal, one can never be absolutely sure that it will not end & stop even tomorrow!!! BUM FINALE hehehe ;-) > > 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? If one perceive an 'End' like a 'BIG IMPLOSION', how can one ever know for sure that the Universe will not begin Again by a new 'BIG BANG... That is actually the case. A 'Harmonica' of expansion-implosion...;-) > > 5: Is the Vitality of Life the same as the Body ? > > 6: Is the Vitality of Life different from the Body ? Since any observation, designation, definition, reference and way of speaking of phenomenon 'Vitality of Life' is connected to, and associated with phenomenon 'physical body' or more broader the 'Kaya=Group=5Khandas' one cannot ever make any separate observation of 'Vitality of Life' independent of & disassociated from 'Body' or 'Khandha Group'. This makes the distinction whether these phenomena are separate yet connected or a 'unified one' really impossible... > > 7: Do a Well-Gone-One exist after Death ? > > 8: Do a Well-Gone-One not exist after Death ? > > 9: Do a Well-Gone-One both exist ¬ exist after Death ? > > 10: Do a Well-Gone-One neither exist nor not exist after Death ? All these suppose that there even BEFORE DEATH Actually Existed an 'unchanging same' & thus 'definable entity' behind the mere 'Name' "Well-Gone-One".. However, neither inside nor outside nor in between these 5 drifting clusters of clinging, continously changing have there ever existed, will there ever exist, nor do there exist now anything else that a transient flux, that never is fit to be designated 'Self' or anything else except for mere conventional labeling... For all 10 questions please check out Buddha's explanation in the 24th Ditthi-Samyutta SN III [202ff]. The grouped sayings on Views. 41364 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG & Howard, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In this one, you missed my point above (which was easy to do). I am not > saying concepts are non-existant. I am not taking about concepts that > haven't > arisen. I am imparting that viewpoint to those in this group who do not > believe > that (arisen) concepts are real. I am asking, from their point of view, > how > something that isn't real can affect things that are real. How can the > principle of Dependent Origination account for that? …. S: I don’t think I missed your point. Howard replied to exactly the same comments of mine with the following which I thought was very well said indeed. Do you have any comments on it? H: >I agree with you here, Sarah, definitely. But I also think there is more. Actually I addressed this issue briefly in a post to someone though I don't recall who that someone was. Obviously, what does not exist does not serve as condition. In fact, to say that it does or does not is, in each case, without meaning, because there *is* no "it". However, there *is* a huge collection of experiential realities(paramattha dhammas) that serves as the basis for projecting the concept, and those dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas upon which we impute further concepts. So the reality is of dhammas conditioning dhammas, but our thinking process views it differently in a way that usually obscures the reality, but does not in the case of an arahant.< S: Please know that when I am referring to realities, I’m also referring to (paramattha) dhammas too. Some people don’t like to see the Pali used. TG:> You mention thinking, reflection, marking, wise conderation; are the > powers > that actually affect things. These states you mention are dependent on > concepts (with possible minimal exceptions). …. S: I wouldn’t say so. Concepts can never act as dependence (nissaya) condition, but they are ‘projected’ as Howard said. It is the thinking or projection that does the affecting, not the ‘purple elephant’ or ‘ story about the tree’ itself, other than serving as objects of such projections. … TG:>What is thought...other > than mental > activity engaging a concept? How can a "reality" be supported by a > "non-reality"? This is the point I was making. In my view, your > comments support that > viewpoint (without supporting it). ;-) … S: Ah, but you are the one talking about being ‘supported by a “non-reality” ‘, not us;-). I’m actually delighted to read Howard’s comments above, because I know we’ve discussed this topic at length before. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, glad you had no probs so far from the blizzards. We think it’s cold here when the temp sinks to near 10 C!! ===== 41365 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi again, Howard, Now here, it’s back to our usual kind of dialogue without such full agreement;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I have found my prior (partial) addressing of this matter, and it > > happens to have been in a post to Jon! What I wrote there was "We begin > in the > midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is > with regard > to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his > listeners within the suttas. …. S: Hmmm … >There he taught them to conventionally > engage in > conventional actions. …. S: Here I’d like to quote back KenH;-). As I understand it, the Buddha taught the Truth, the 4NT in various ways. What’s right and what’s wrong, what leads to what result and so on. As we’ve all discussed many times, he used conventional speech (as we all do), but there was no misunderstanding of the message about (paramattha) dhammas for the wise. He stressed that the knowing of the ‘all’ are just these paramattha dhammas – the khandhas (and nibbana). …. >The realities that underlie such actions are what > have > consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But > we worldlings > do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the > conventional, conceptual level." …. S: From my point of view, you’re half right here. Yes, there are only realities. Whether we see them for what they are or not, there are only realities. As we read in one of those suttas in the AN anthology, whether a Buddha comes along or not, the Truths remain the same. In other words, just because we ignorantly take concepts for being truths or think our conventional world is the real one, does not alter the facts about what is really being experienced right now. Ignorance is one such reality to be known. Yes, we use concepts and ‘operate at the conventional, conceptual level’, but such ‘operating’ can be with or without wrong view about dhammas at any given moment. Clearly, for the ariyans, when talking about purple elephants or trees in the garden, there would have been no illusion that these were anything but conceptual terms used for expression. Metta, Sarah p.s old post of yours on Poetyr, Negations and Dukkha (Dec21), you said H:‘ “All conditioned dhammas are impermanent” does not say that conditioned dhammas change. It says they do not remain – no conditioned dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change ever mean?’ S:I understand dhammas are changing all the time. As soon as they are arising, they’re changing and falling away. When we read about the 3 phasesof cittas (which Htoo often writes about), each phase conditions the next phase. Like dominoes, as soon as they’re set in motion, they have to change and fall away. So they change and do not remain. With regard to the speed of citta in another post of yours to me on the same date (see how behind I get!), I believe the speed is both in reference to the speed of rupas (as you suggest) and also as a general comment that nothing changes as fast as the mind or citta regardless. This would even be true in arupa jhana states or realms! ============== 41366 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG (Howard & All), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Sarah: I think, however, that he taught that the only > way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see > things as they are. > > TG: I disagree with the word "only". First of all, he did not > actually say > this. … S: Ok, he taught just or only the 4 Noble Truths, do you agree? I think we read this in many suttas. Also, no other truths: “ ‘I shall set aside this truth of suffering and make known another truth of suffering’- that is not possible’ “etc And then on ‘seeing things as they are’ (yathaa bhuuta): SN 35:1 “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be *seen as it really is*(yathaa bhuuta) with correct wisdom…..etc” And then of course are the suttas about the ‘all’. "‘Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all’ –that would be a mere empty boast…." Etc. SN35:27 (5) ‘Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. “And what , bhikkhus, is the all….? “The eye and forms and eye-consciousness…..etc” So it is only by understanding the realities (dhammas) or khandhas (dukkha – in brief the 5 khandhas) , the cause of suffering and the path leading to cessation, that attachment can ever be eradicated. …. >So the statement is an interpretation...which is fine, but needs > to be > clear. Second of all, "seeing things the way they are" has more to it > than > analyzing states as "realities." … S: Seeing things as they are (yathaabhuuta) always has to do with the development of satipatthana or vipassana, not with analysis which I’ve never suggested. What are dhammas (realities)? The dhatus, the khandhas, nama and rupa as included in the foundations of mindfulness. SN52:16 (6) “Further, friends, it is because I have developed and cultivated these four establishments of mindfulness that I understand as it really is the way leading everywhere.” …. (I much prefer calling things > aggregates and > elements, as the Buddha did; rather than realities. "Realities" is > another > one of those interpretations. …. S: No problem. To be honest, I forget who likes ‘aggregates and elements’, who likes ‘paramattha dhammas’ and who likes ‘realities’. When I use realities, it is a translation of (paramattha) dhammas or of aggregates and elements. No difference, except ‘aggregates’ never includes nibbana. I'll try to avoid 'realities' if I'm writing directly to you, but no promises;-). I’m in a quoting mood, as Phil would say: SN35:244 (7) “Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu understands as they really are (yathaa bhuuta) the origin and the passing away of all states (dhammas) whatsoever that entail suffering, then sensual pleasures have been seen by him in such a way that as he looks at them sensual desire, sensual affection, sensual infatuation, and sensual passion do not lie latent within him in regard to sensual pleasures:..” S: Is my statement at the outset , “that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things[i.e dhammas] as they are.” still so very off-track in your view? … >If you keep interpreting interpretations > enough, > pretty soon your chanting Nam Yo Ho Ren Gei Kyo in order to get a new > car...and thinking its the Buddha's teaching.) ;-) … S: Just don’t mention cars and baby steps;-) …. > (It amazes me that so many in this group want such perfect accuracy that > they > insist on using Pali terms to get that "perfection"...and yet they use > terms > such as "realities" or claim the Buddha taught "realities" which is > utterly > unaccurate. Its just an interpretation. Back to the action...) … S: This is the action, TG!! Now BB translated dhammas in the passage above as ‘states’. Do you prefer ‘states’ for namas and rupas? We can leave dhammas as dhammas, but the difficulty is when someone like yourself comes along and suggests that concepts also share the 3 characteristics which is where I see the inaccuracy coming in:-/ …. > In my mind, "seeing the way things are" is also of crucial importance. > But I > don't believe seeing things as "namas" and "rupas" is seeing things the > way > they really are. …. S: ‘a bhikkhu understands as they really are……all states whatsoever that entail suffering’ etc as quoted above. ‘All states’ are namas and rupas or khandhas if you prefer. Seeing them as they are is seeing them as such, i.e clearly distinguishing between seeing and visible object, between hearing and sound and so on. …. >That dividing mentality in 52 mental factors, or > consciousness into 17 processes, is seeing things the way they really > are. I think these > are just a particular set of models in order to develop the ability of > insight. .. S: Yes., I agree at last! We’re not talking about analysis but about direct understanding of what we’ve read or heard at a pretty basic level. …. >Personally I think these are good models, but they become a > hindrance when > given too much credence. I think seeing things the way they really are > is > "intuitive realization of impermanence...with the knowledge of suffering > and > no-self linked with it." What is impermanent? ... Anything conditioned. …. S: I’ve already agreed with some of your other comments in other posts on this. The credence is not the problem, but if there is an idea that analysis in itself will lead to nibbana, there is a problem. However, when we say ‘anything conditioned’, we have to be a lot more precise. You say all dreams and fantasies and any concepts are conditioned. Please give me your sutta quotes for this. …. > TG: He stressed these things, and he stressed other things as well. > Make > no mistake, I believe mindfulness of states as they arise, transform, > and cease > is of utmost importance! But I see it as one part of the process and I > don't > look to discount the other ways the Buddha taught in lieu of it. … S: What other ways did the Buddha teach in lieu of satipatthana? …. > TG: I would suspect that if someone became enlightened by rubbing a > cloth, > that both a conceptual understanding and a direct realization of > impermanence > were accomplished and a realization of the Path to purity. … S: Yes, no problems here. … > TG: Concepts arise due to conditions, they are impermanent, they are > suffering if attached to, and they are not-self. Yep, they got it > covered. …. S: Looking forward to discussing any sutta on this. …. S: You quoted from this: > (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 540, The > Greater Discourse to Malunkyaputta, Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta, #64) I only saw the passage you quoted as supporting what I had said about ‘rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are sinsubstantial or impermanent etc’ and not as being reified as you suggested. … > Whatever can be experienced has arisen. Even a fantasy is is an arisen > fantasy. It arises, tranforms, and ceases. … S: Conventionally speaking only. Ask Howard;-) … >The Buddha does > not talk > about "realities." He talks about conditions. …. S: We read throughout the teachings about dhammas (realities) to be known just as they are. It is these same dhammas that are conditioned. There cannot be any understanding of conditions without understanding the dhammas in the first place. …. >Because he talks about > conditions, he did not obscess over what was real and what wasn't real. > He did not > worry about the "existence or non-existence" of concepts. … S: He taught about eyebase, seeing, visible object, contact and so on. He taught about the khandhas, the ayatanas (wholes sections in SN devoted just to these), the dhatus, the objects of mindfulness. What is not included in these groupings is the ‘non-existent’ world of concepts. We don’t need to hear a Buddha to learn about concepts, passing dreams and so on. This post is already long and I haven’t even got to your other ‘piece’. Hopefully later, unless I can encourage others to respond to it in the meantime. I think these are important points to discuss and look further to hearing any more of your or other ideas. Metta, Sarah ======= 41367 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:01am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 109 - Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå which accompanies akusala citta is also called ‘micchåsamådhi’, wrong concentration. Ekaggatå which accompanies kusala citta is also called ‘sammå-samådhi’, right concentration. Samådhi is another word for ekaggatå cetasika. Although wrong concentration and right concentration are both ekaggatå cetasika their qualities are different. Sammå-samådhi focuses on the object in the right way, the wholesome way. There are many levels of right concentration. The Atthasåliní (1, Part IV, Chapter 1. 118, 119) states about ekaggatå, and here it deals actually with sammå-samådhi (1): * "This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has nonscattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent states as function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said: ‘He who is concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.’ It is distinguished by having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause (2). Like the steadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so should steadfastness of mind be understood." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 139) gives a similar definition, except that it mentions only peace of mind as manifestation, not knowledge. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §11. 2) Pleasant feeling, sukha, is a jhåna-factor arising only in four stages of rúpa-jhåna. It supports samådhi in focusing on the meditation subject. In the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna pleasant feeling is abandoned and indifferent feeling accompanies the jhåna-citta instead. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41368 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Cosmique and Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cosmique1000" > wrote: > > > > Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not > jhana > > > object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is > they > > > take nibbana as their object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Title : Dialogue 2 > Topics : Related topics raised by Sarah [and may be others] > Now, the topic is magga citta and nibbana > Participants: Sarah, Htoo, Cosmique (3rd participant now ) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Hopefully, others will join in our discussions too!! Cosmique, welcome to the group - I'm very impressed that you're following our discussions (sometimes I get lost;-)). You're asking great questions too. If you feel inclined anytime, pls let us know a little more about your Theravada background, where you live etc. Htoo - I plan to get back on our dialogues and have more to start, but it'll be tomorrow or next week (I hope!!). thanks for your very detailed considerations. Metta, Sarah ======== 41369 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > Dear Nina - > > I am glad to read your message # 41165 which is a detailed > explanation of things that were unclear to me in the past. The passage > from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me > another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What > is the title of this publication? ... S:I think this is the message of Nina’s below in full which you were asking where the extract was from. You may also like to review some of the earlier discussion in the thread with Lars which started at about #20248.Please raise any points, comments or questions about anything you find of special interest. You can find the booklet Nina refers to below on: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/, or http://www.zolag.co.uk/, Metta, Sarah p.s if you put ‘lars’ or ‘adhi’ in the first search engine here, it will take you to the 20,000s and then to the relevant posts too. http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ ============================ 20398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: sila, samadhi, panna, no 2. Dear Lars, Now follows more from my "In Asoka's Footsteps". Note also what I wrote about citta, concentration and higher concentration, adhicitta. You will see in the Co (to which we return later on) that with this kind of siila the lokuttara samaadhi is reached. Thus, it really is far-reaching. Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Potthila and Yuganaddha Hi Tep, Nina & All, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Yuganaddha sutta, coupled, A.n. IV, 170: we had many posts on that, > pulling > out texts, also the Path of Discrimination. It is very clear. .... > N: The fourth way is insight, vipassana imperfections are mentioned. The > Path of Discrimination also sees it from the aspect of lokuttara citta, > the > concentration and calm with lokuttara citta. We have to investigate this > point when we read about calm and insight. There is the highest calm > with > phalacitta, since defilements are eradicated. See archives for this > sutta. ... S: From Useful Posts -Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN 1V.170 3905, 7821, 19388, 27712, 30594, 31565 ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 41371 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: Fwd: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable Questions. Dear Howard, Nina, Bhante and all I have found the "10 indeterminable question" or "10 unanswerable questions" three times in the Suttas: (1) In the 'Connected Discourses with Vacchagotta' (SN ch XII, 33; page 1031 in BB's translation) called "Because of Not Knowing" Here the Buddha answered: "It is, Vaccha, because of not knowing form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation that those various speculative views arise in the world: 'The world is eternal' …" (2) In MN 63, Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, The answer of the Buddha is long, first about the wrong expectations of Mulankyaputta and then (in the translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): "And why are they [the 10 question] undisclosed by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undisclosed by me. "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. These arguments of the Buddha are in my opinion a bit the second and most the third but not the first of the three, the Bhante mentioned: - Because they are indeterminable &thus rightly unanswerable. - Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. - Because they thus obstruct &destroy the only Way to Final Peace. In the message we got via Howard (41363 Another attempt) the Bhante explained the being indeterminableness of the first four questions in a scientific way and not in a soteriological way; see quote below. And I'm sorry to say: it's a oldfashioned quasi-scientific way, there is much more astrophysical information, there are better mathematical based theories then he uses. I will say: the Bhante is an expert but not at the topic he is talking about. (3) The source the Bhante mentions is 24th Ditthi-Samyutta SN III [202ff]. The grouped sayings on Views. On page 997-999 of BB's translation we find another time the 10 questions. As far as I understand, the core reason the Buddha gives for being no good of (first four of) these questions is: "When there is form, bhikkhus, when there is feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, by clinging to consciousness, by adhering to consciousness, such a view as this arises: 'The world is eternal' …" For me the Buddha doesn't say these questions are indeterminable but that no good to speculate about them, for soteriological reason. My conclusion: we can have a scientific discussion about these questions now, with arguments, with empirical facts that can (of course) been interpretated in different ways, but …But speculation about these questions, building kind of metaphysical phantasies on it, doesn't bring me further on my buddhistic path (but can be a innocent way of spending my leisure time). Metta Joop OK here some of them come: > > 1: Is the Universe Finite ? > > 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? A) Let's say you by mind could travel beyond the speed of light out there in the mighty space. Whether you hit or did not hit any sort of boundary: What could you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further out 'behind this' percieved boundary! B) As the 'ALL' and thereby also 'The Universe' really is nothing but a constructed perception & as such a kind of 'Internal' phenomena; What can you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further 'internal' hidden inside, behind & beyound the mere imaginary appearance of this perception! > > 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? However long one wait to see by direct experience that the Universe is Eternal, one can never be absolutely sure that it will not end & stop even tomorrow!!! BUM FINALE hehehe ;-) > > 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? If one perceive an 'End' like a 'BIG IMPLOSION', how can one ever know for sure that the Universe will not begin Again by a new 'BIG BANG... That is actually the case. A 'Harmonica' of expansion-implosion...;-) 41372 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Sarah and TG, Sarah: You say all dreams and fantasies and any concepts are conditioned. Please give me your sutta quotes for this. James: Concepts are conditioned by the mind's tendency to mental proliferation (In Pali: Papanca). From SN 18 "The Honeyball": "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye. (…Continued for the other sense spheres). Sarah: Seeing things as they are (yathaabhuuta) always has to do with the development of satipatthana or vipassana, not with analysis which I've never suggested. What are dhammas (realities)? The dhatus, the khandhas, nama and rupa as included in the foundations of mindfulness. James: The Buddha's path of liberation also includes being mindful of concepts and consequently not being lead astray by them. From SN 131 "A Single Excellent Night": Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; 1212 1212: MA: He should contemplate each presently arisen state, just where it has arisen, by way of the seven contemplations of insight (insight into impermanence, suffering, non-self, disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, relinquishment). To my reading, "state" here doesn't necessarily apply to namas and rupas in there raw sense, but to any state. From the Honeyball Sutta one can see that mental proliferations (concepts) are often states that arise at the moment. Sakyong Mipham in his book `Turning The Mind Into An Ally' describes how mindfulness of each presently arisen state takes the mind deeper and deeper into awareness and calmness. He describes these levels: 1. Conventional Life 2. Fantasies 3. Emotions 4. Discursive Thoughts 5. Subtle Thoughts 6. Peaceful Abiding Metta, James 41373 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, Most of the points you raised in this post have since been covered in your discussion with Sukin. But I'd like to continue, all the same. We were talking about experiencing a presently arisen dhamma with right understanding: You wrote: ---------------------------- > It is profoundly difficult because that end-product of "direct seeing and knowing" is not a castle built in the air, it requires several stages of development starting from solid Sila to nama-rupa- pariccheda nana and beyond. > ----------------------------- Yes, the end product you are talking about does require a lot of preparation. But, even now, there can be a degree of right understanding. To the extent that we have studied the true Dhamma, there can, at least, be right *intellectual* understanding of the present dhammas. I doubt a beginner like me would ever have moments of direct understanding. They would have to be of an extremely weak level. (I remember DSG has discussed this before, but can't remember what we concluded. :-) ) ------------------------------------- T: > But there are many real stories of those virtuous monks who could achieve this insight knowledge from samatha-vipassana and contemplation of the ti-lakkhana of the five aggregates (panca khandha). > -------------------------------------- There certainly are. I doubt there are any samatha-vipassana meditators (people who can use jhana as a vehicle for insight) today, but there must be some bare-vipassana meditators. ----------------- T: > The contemplation is, of course, not some idle thinking of the three characteristics. ------------------ Certainly not, and direct knowledge of the khandhas (and their characteristics) must not be confused with the experiencing of concepts. Anyone, even and animal, can concentrate on a part of the body or on a state of mind. To equate that sort of mindfulness with mindfulness of nama and rupa would be a grave misunderstanding. --------------------------- <. . .> T: > I think Howard and I have stressed that conventional wisdom is necessarey while one is training toward sotapatti-magga-nana. I doubt it very much if anyone can start right away at seeing and knowing the Paramattha dhamma, i.e. bypassing the conventional way. It is just purely illogical to me. > ---------------------------- I agree entirely except for one thing: We may have different ideas on the correct conventional way. To me, the correct conventional way is a theoretical knowledge of the five khandhas. I think the incorrect conventional way is to equate concepts with khandhas. This occurs in formal meditation where the meditator concentrates on, for example, a pain in the leg or a feeling of hardness where the body touches the floor, or the ideas that spring to mind, etc. Some DSG people maintain that this sort of practice, even though not the real satipatthana, will at least lead to the real thing. I don't see why it would. And I can think of many reasons why it wouldn't. ----------------- T: In the following sutta, the Buddha described how the Path factors work together toward the insight knowledge penetration. The language is based on the conventional truth (vohara-sacca) and it is clear to a worldling like me. Why didn't he use the Abhidhamma language? ----------------- The way I see it, the intention of the teaching is that the learner should see absolute reality wherever the uninstructed worldling sees conventional reality. The suttas were mostly (not always) in conventional language, and the audience (no doubt well schooled in Abhidhamma) would see the absolute reality to the best of their ability. Even though the Buddha didn't like to use Abhidhamma language in conjunction with conventional language (e.g., "The five khandhas were walking down the street"), the example you give comes pretty close to it, I think. My very limited understanding is that it starts with the cetasika samma-samadhi by explaining the conditions (supports and requisites) for it's momentary arising and persisting. The first condition is the presence of samma-ditthi. Even though all eight path-factors arise together in one citta, some depend on others to be the forerunner etc. Having arisen, they all support each other (by co-nascence condition, I think). Further on, the sutta reads; "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view. This is one's right mindfulness." (end quote) I would assume that those lines are describing the kilesa-destroying functions of the path factors. (All very Abhidhamma). Regards, Ken H 41374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Attempt, life faculty. Hi Howard, thanks for your third attempt. I looked up the text. I have a footnote to life: it is the animating principle, 'animal-soul'. It is in contrast to the body. Thus here it is actually speculation about body and soul: the life (soul) is one thing, the body another, etc. There are many speculations about this subject, with clinging to a self, or taking things for permanent. The rupa that is life faculty is rupakkhandha. It arises and falls away immediately. op 27-01-2005 06:18 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Subj: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable > Questions. > From: bhikkhu_ekamuni@y... > To: upasaka@a... 41375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, books. Hi Larry, op 27-01-2005 01:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for the exensive reply regarding matika. I can see I'm going to > have to get a Dhammasangani. N: Good, but the English Transl is not always so clear. But ask when it is unclear, because I can compare with the Pali. In the footnotes there is reference to its Co, the Expositor (Atthasalini), and this is helpful. You might as well get this, to read the texts side by side. It is useful to get a catalogue from PTS. If you become a member the books are cheaper. Nina. 41376 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Experience of objects Hi James, appreciating your remarks that make me consider cetasikas more. op 26-01-2005 19:11 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Nina: Citta never arises alone, it needs cetasikas and these > condition citta.... > James: This is precisely why I have questioned the existence of > cetasikas. If cetasikas never arise alone, how does one know that > they exist? N: We experience them all the time but we do not know that they are mere dhammas. (see below). J: In your opinion, why does the Abhidhamma contain this > kind of classification? ... Am I making myself clear? N: Yes, I understand your q. We do not need to call them cetasikas, this is only a reference term. We can also say, different qualities, and among them good ones and bad ones. Many occur in the suttas, though not in so much detail as in the Abhidhamma. J:... the introduction to the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha by Bhikkhu Bodhi states: >.... > For example, the triads include such sets as states that are > wholesome, unwholesome, indeterminate; states associated with > pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neutral feeling; .... > > James: Now, it seems to me reasonable to distinguish cittas based on > the triads and dyads as described above because these are > classifications where are clearly separate. In other words, a > pleasant feeling isn't ever going to also be a painful feeling (at > the same time) and a root condition isn't ever going to be a non- > root condition (at the same time), etc. N: Quite right. < a pleasant feeling isn't ever going to also be a painful feeling (at > the same time)>. You understand cetasikas now, they have different characteristics and appear one at a time. Feeling is cetasika, or, feeling khandha. J: However, cittas and cetasikas occur at the same time. What is there to differentiate > between them? Why aren't they seen as just different types of > cittas? N: You say, What is there to differentiate between them? Good question. Answer: the cetasikas. Citta merely cognizes an object but the accompanying cetasikas are a condition that they are so different. When Kh Sujin spoke about citta and cetasika (there are 52) she said it could also be seen that there are 53 cetasikas, counting citta as an extra one. When we consider seeing or hearing, these are cittas, cognizing an object. They have the minimum cetasikas, only seven and these are not so prominent. When citta with lobha arises after seeing, lobha is more obvious, we can come to know lobha cetasika. James quotes: ...(snip) a > succession of discrete evanescent cognitive events called cittas, > each a complex unity involving consciousness itself, as the basic > awareness of an object, and a constellation of mental factors > (cetasika) exercising more specialized tasks in the act of > cognition." > James: I'm not entirely sure what a `constellation of mental > factors' is supposed to mean. N: The accompanying cetasikas. James:This description, to use an analogy, > reminds me of mixtures of things: like ice cream with nuts-candy- > fruit, or soup with vegetables-meat-pasta, etc. However, in each of > these cases, the various ingredients can be separated. We can > say "Here is the ice cream and here are the nuts" or "Here is the > soup base and here are the vegetables". But can the same thing be > said for cittas and cetasikas? Can one say "This is the citta and > this is the cetasika"? N: Very good remark. Questions of Milinda: someone goes to the ocean and takes a handful of water, but he does not know this is water from the Ganges, this from the Jamuna, this from the Aciravati river. But the Blessed One did a difficult thing, separating the citta and the different cetasikas. For us this is very hard. But it is not impossible when paññaa is developed. Otherwise, what is the use of studying all these different dhammas? They have been taught so that they can be realized. Had the Buddha not taught citta and cetasikas we would not know anything. J: If they can never be separated, I don't see > how. What really exists are various types of cittas and the > additional category of cetasika seems to be for organization's sake > rather than an actual dhamma. What do you think? N: They are actual dhammas, not in the book. When you are angry, anger is a cetasika, it is a root. When you are attached, attachment is a cetasika, it is a root. Satipatthanasutta, mindfulness of citta: citta with lobha, citta with anger. Why is it said: citta *with* lobha (saraga-citta) or dosa? To show that the root, a cetasika, makes citta so different. You experience pleasant or unpleasant feeling: cetasikas. You experience generosity when you anumodana, it is different from anger. The citta is entirely different, it is conditioned by many good qualities: there is calm, pliancy, wieldiness, gentleness, alobha, adosa. This shows that citta is conditioned by many cetasikas at the same time. (Your Q and Larry's overlap here somewhat). The suttas are full of cetasikas, though the name cetasika does not occur. But the qualities, the characteristics are mentioned. Terms are not so important. Contact, feeling, attachment, perception or remembrance, etc. They all occur in the suttas. And take remembrance, sañãa: without it we would not know the meaning of all things we use in daily life, or we could not walk on the street without stepping on dirt or falling into a hole. J: (Beyond a > restatement of the fundamentals?) This has perplexed me since I > first read about cetasikas. N: Yes, I understand. But good you read about them, it helps the foundation knowledge for the practice. And also those who develop jhana and vipassana as a pair: they have to realize the jhanafactors (cetasikas again!) as non-self when they emerge from jhana. The three characteristics have to be applied to rupa, citta and cetasika, or in other words, to the five khandhas. J: Ps. If you tell me that cetasikas can only be differentiated from > cittas by `insight', I would like you to explain precisely what you > mean. Otherwise, you might as well just say "It's MAGIC"! ;-)) >N: Sati can be aware of one dhamma at a time, and then paññaa can gradually know different characteristics of dhammas that appear. No need to name citta or cetasika, just characteristics that appear. That is the way. Later on citta can be differentiated from cetasikas, but for me still a long way. But the subject is worth discussing more, perhaps Rob K, Sarah, Mike or anyone else can add something. I like some input to discuss further. Nina. 41377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 2. Hi Larry, op 27-01-2005 01:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > You said we experience a cetasika only when it is an object of > consciousness and only in a mind door process. Would that be mind-door > adverting consciousness adverting to a cetasika that is the experience > of a cetasika? N: The following javanacittas consider the object or think about it, or name it. In the case of non-arahats, this considering or thinking is either in the wholesome way or in the unwholesome way. It can be with pañña or without it. It can be with clinging or wrong view. The mind-door adverting consciousness is one very short moment that merely adverts to a new object after the bhavanga-cittas that have their own object have fallen away. L:Wouldn't this be two experiences, adverting and the > cetasika? N: So, not only the adverting consciousness but the whole mind-door process. Nama can know another nama. Feeling, anger, attachment: if there were no mind-door process we would not possibly know them or recognize them. Certainly not in a sense-door process. L: Also you brought up the case of sati identifying rupa as distinct from 5 > door consciousness. How would this work? Say there is a 5-door process > with visible data as object. Then the mind door process begins with > adverting to visible data, followed by sati javana cittas identifying > this as visible data. N: Correct. L: However, there doesn't seem to be an experience of > visible data separate from consciousness. N: I think you mean: separate from seeing? They have different characteristics, one being rupa, one being nama, and although they are both present, sati is aware of the characteristic that presents itself to the sati. I understand that this is hard to swallow. It can be understood when there is a short moment of sati. Hardness may present itself. Sati may happen to be aware of it. This is a moment different from body-consciousness that experiences hardness. Body-consciousness is merely vipaakacitta, whereas sati arises with kusala citta. Sati experiences in a detached way, there is also alobha. There is no idea of self: I try to have sati, I experience. Very hard in the beginning. I am mostly repeating what I heard. Listening and listening conditions sati. L: At best there is only an understanding of visible data as separate from consciousness. I don't > see how this understanding can be anything other than a reasoned understanding, though words may not be necessary. N:Yes, by inference, but this does not matter, it is intellectual understanding, and that is a good beginning. The late Phra Dhammadhari used to say: it does not matter, and this is very important. He was indicating that clinging does not work. He did not mean being lazy. > N: ...(snip) You realize that > you only know them by thinking and that is why you believe that they are > only concepts. Is that not so?" > > L: Yes and no. We all experience cetasikas but it is difficult to fit > that experience into citta process. N: See above, not difficult intellectually, in theory. L: Also, I don't see how anyone, even > the Buddha, can know through direct experience that 2 dhammas arise at > the same time. Surely this also is a matter of reasoned analysis. N: See my answer to James, the Q. of Milinda. We understand by inference that many dhammas arise at the same time, and also that they arise because of different conditions. But each citta can know only one object at a time. Sati cannot be aware of several characteristics at a time. But shortly one after the other is possible. Take the first stage of tender insight. There are several mind-door processes and both nama and rupa are known shortly one after the other. Thus, their difference can be realized. But, it is all very fast, Kh Sujin said. There is no counting this process and then that process. No naming. Nina. 41378 From: Philip Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: Hi from Phil Hi Sarah > Meanwhile, does this help: > http://www.j-theravada.net/ Thanks for this. It is the place I was thinking of, and by clicking around I found a Japanese language Dhammapada on line - which is what I was hoping to find at the temple. It's not far from the place we'll be moving to next month, so we'll see. The Sri Lankan elder has written some interesting looking books and teaches beginner's classes once a month or so. Metta, Phil 41379 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/27/05 2:12:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > p.s Howard, glad you had no probs so far from the blizzards. We > think it’s cold here when the temp sinks to near 10 C!! > ====================== Ahh, 50 F - Springtime!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41380 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/27/05 2:39:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi again, Howard, > > Now here, it’s back to our usual kind of dialogue without such full > agreement;-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Yay! Back to the familiar! ;-) ---------------------------------- > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > I have found my prior (partial) addressing of this matter, and it > > > >happens to have been in a post to Jon! What I wrote there was "We begin > >in the > >midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is > >with regard > >to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his > >listeners within the suttas. > …. > S: Hmmm > … > >There he taught them to conventionally > >engage in > >conventional actions. > …. > S: Here I’d like to quote back KenH;-). As I understand it, the Buddha > taught the Truth, the 4NT in various ways. What’s right and what’s wrong, > what leads to what result and so on. As we’ve all discussed many times, he > used conventional speech (as we all do), but there was no misunderstanding > of the message about (paramattha) dhammas for the wise. He stressed that > the knowing of the ‘all’ are just these paramattha dhammas – the khandhas > (and nibbana). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: When he talked to his followers about guarding the senses, and clenching the teeth, and sitting with back straight and attention to the fore, and seeking out good Dhamma friends who are the whole of the holy life etc, etc etc. he was speaking of conventional actions. Those who were high ariyans certainly understood the realities underlying all this conventional speech, as they did the realities underlying this entire projected world of concept, but most of his followers did not, nor did they need to in order to follow his instructions. They went right ahead and did as instructed, bu what actually occurred was not what they thought, but was a conditioned flow of experiential realities they were largely unaware of. ------------------------------------------------ > …. > >The realities that underlie such actions are what > >have > >consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But > >we worldlings > >do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the > >conventional, conceptual level." > …. > S: From my point of view, you’re half right here. Yes, there are only > realities. Whether we see them for what they are or not, there are only > realities. As we read in one of those suttas in the AN anthology, whether > a Buddha comes along or not, the Truths remain the same. In other words, > just because we ignorantly take concepts for being truths or think our > conventional world is the real one, does not alter the facts about what is > really being experienced right now. Ignorance is one such reality to be > known. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. I agree entirely. ------------------------------------ > > Yes, we use concepts and ‘operate at the conventional, conceptual level’, > but such ‘operating’ can be with or without wrong view about dhammas at > any given moment. Clearly, for the ariyans, when talking about purple > elephants or trees in the garden, there would have been no illusion that > these were anything but conceptual terms used for expression. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I agree completely! (So, why was I only "half right"? ;-) ----------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s old post of yours on Poetyr, Negations and Dukkha (Dec21), you said > H:‘ “All conditioned dhammas are impermanentâ€? does not say that > conditioned dhammas change. It says they do not remain – no conditioned > dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change ever mean?’ > > S:I understand dhammas are changing all the time. As soon as they are > arising, they’re changing and falling away. When we read about the 3 > phasesof cittas (which Htoo often writes about), each phase conditions the > next phase. Like dominoes, as soon as they’re set in motion, they have to > change and fall away. So they change and do not remain. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps. I am aware that this is said about cittas in the commentaries. Actually, the growth, peaking, and declining (in intensity) of a mindstate, like a wave, makes perfectly good sense to me, and I have no problem with that - in fact it appeals to me. But I don't think of that sort of change as very important. When dhammas arise or cease, pa~n~natti that we project onto the dhammic stream seem to change, but the reality of the matter is that dhammas themselves, don't turn into other dhammas - they don't change their nature. When a dhamma ceases, it is *gone*. When a dhamma arises, it is brand new - never "on the scene" before. It may seem that we hear a changing melody. But "the melody" is conceptually projected upon a multitude of sounds, each of which arises anew and then ceases, never to repeat. There is *always* something new under the sun!! (My variation on a theme of Ecclesiastes! ;-) That is what I was alluding to. ----------------------------------------- > > With regard to the speed of citta in another post of yours to me on the > same date (see how behind I get!), I believe the speed is both in > reference to the speed of rupas (as you suggest) and also as a general > comment that nothing changes as fast as the mind or citta regardless. This > would even be true in arupa jhana states or realms! ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41381 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James James as far as my memory on the texts, one cannot attain immaterial jhanas without first attaining the materials jhanas Give you an extract : it is about the recollection of Buddha. << When a disciple recollects the Tathagatha thus, on that occassion his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred or delusion, his mind is straight, with the Tagathat as its object. A noble disciple whose mind is straight gain inspiration of the meaning, the inspiration of hte Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened, rapture arises; for one uplifted by rapture of the body becomes calm, one calm in body feels happy; for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated.....>> AN (VI,10) It shows that gladness of the dhamma that cause rise of rapture, then in turns, calm, happy then at least concentrated ;-) They are many ways a person can become concentrated and not necessary by jhanas, further the Buddha way is always about panna first and not the other way around. Then go to AN [IV, 123] The Jhanas and Rebirth - where it shows a difference between one whos is Noble one and one is not. Beings that live in Braham realm and not those who are Noble ones, will after passing away from braham realm will rebirth in the lower realms while the Nobles one will gain enlightment. Another point, this sutta also shows that there is no need to attain the four jhanas in order to be liberated. Ken O 41382 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep > > Here sama-samadhi is not just samadhi, although the two terms have > been interchangeable by some translators of the suttas. Sama- > samadhi is right concentration and is defined by the four jhanas as Samma Samadhi is only application during stages of enlightement where all the eightfold factors are right. Please read the email I send to James on the difference on jhanas by an ariyan and a ordinary person. The jhanas are the same but the result are different because one is pre-conditioned by panna while the other is just kusala behavior without panna. Ken O 41383 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Attempt, life faculty. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/27/05 9:23:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > thanks for your third attempt. I looked up the text. I have a footnote to > life: it is the animating principle, 'animal-soul'. It is in contrast to the > body. Thus here it is actually speculation about body and soul: the life > (soul) is one thing, the body another, etc. There are many speculations > about this subject, with clinging to a self, or taking things for permanent. > The rupa that is life faculty is rupakkhandha. It arises and falls away > immediately. > ====================== Ahh, thank you for clarifying the matter! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41384 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Tep Cetana can influence citta, and right > efforts in the sense of deliberate cultivation of sila, samadhi and > panna, do influence citta. k: We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. T: Doesn't cetana influence the "direction of mind", regardless of the knowledge of anatta? k: Cetana does not influence the direction of mind. It is the roots of kusala and akusala that influence the direction of the mind. If we look at D.O., it is ignorance + craving that is the force of the continual existence, kamma can only exist as long as latency exist. Cetana is a volition, it cannot influence. All actions of our speech or bodily actions are resulted by the action of the mind which in turns influenced by the roots. Ken O 41385 From: Hugo Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:25am Subject: Books written by monks about monk's life and practice. While most of you will agree that reading the Tipitaka is the authoritative instruction from The Buddha and that there is all that is needed to know in order to attain Enlightenment, a lot of people will have a lot of questions not only on what was the message The Buddha was trying to convey but also on how to apply those teachings to our everyday life, specially those of us who still have a long way to go before reaching Enlightenement. I have found that reading about the life and mode of practice of different monks is a very useful thing to do in order to enhance my own practice. It gives me the opportunity to learn how these people have brought the teachings of Buddha into their own lives, and how their lives have been shaped by the teachings of Buddha until their lives and the teachings become one. I have read many anecdotes of monks here and there on the web, but the following books provide you with a lot of anecdotes in one single place. 1) Patipada or the mode of practice of Venerable Acharn Mun http://www.luangta.or.th/english/site/book6_patipada.html The name suggests only one monk (Ven. Acharn Mun) but it really talks about many of his students. It is written by one of them who is still alive. Unfortunately the on-line version is not ready yet but if you can get a hold of it (in a monastery, or by ordering it), read it, it is long but entertaining, not boring. My teacher told me that there was some concern by some monks on having it available for laypeople as it describes some things that might confuse them, so keep this in mind. More books from the same author: http://www.luangta.or.th/english/site/books.php 2) Living Dharma http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570621381/103-2026048-3364621 Don't be mislead by the title, it is about Theravada teachers, why the author used Dharma and not Dhamma, I don't know. I learned a lot from this book, one particular inspiring bit that brought some insight to my practice is the chapter about one nun (forgot her name), it helped me realize the First Noble Truth. 3) Food for the Heart: The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0861713230/qid=1106842420/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-2026048-3364621 I haven't finished this one yet, but so far, it is great, simply great. Some of the questions that have arisen on my practice are asked there, even with the same words, and the best is that they are answered. Some of the teachings included in this book are available on the web, but I think not all of them, in any case the money spent on it is well spent. I will post some excerpts from the books related to some of the topics that that came up on the mailing list and "I took with me" during my time off-list. Remember, everything is a tool, it takes wisdom to know how, when and for how long you use it. -- Hugo 41386 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/27/05 11:37:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > T: Doesn't cetana influence the "direction of mind", regardless of > the knowledge of anatta? > > k: Cetana does not influence the direction of mind. It is the roots > of kusala and akusala that influence the direction of the mind. If > we look at D.O., it is ignorance + craving that is the force of the > continual existence, kamma can only exist as long as latency exist. > Cetana is a volition, it cannot influence. All actions of our speech > or bodily actions are resulted by the action of the mind which in > turns influenced by the roots. > ===================== As I understand it, Ken, cetana fabricates - in fact, it is the chief fabricating cetasika. It certainly influences; in fact, it is a major participant in constructing. You speak of "the action of the mind". Cetana is a significant part of that. Cetana is, exactly, kamma. Do you claim that kamma has no influence? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41387 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Sarah In a message dated 1/26/2005 11:12:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: Hi TG & Howard, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In this one, you missed my point above (which was easy to do). I am not > saying concepts are non-existant. I am not taking about concepts that > haven't > arisen. I am imparting that viewpoint to those in this group who do not > believe > that (arisen) concepts are real. I am asking, from their point of view, > how > something that isn't real can affect things that are real. How can the > principle of Dependent Origination account for that? …. S: I don’t think I missed your point. Howard replied to exactly the same comments of mine with the following which I thought was very well said indeed. Do you have any comments on it? TG: Once the reader believes he or she knows the authors meaning better than the author, and that belief is in full disagreement with the author, even when the author tries to clarify it by saying -- "you don't understand my position," what can be said? TG:> You mention thinking, reflection, marking, wise conderation; are the > powers > that actually affect things. These states you mention are dependent on > concepts (with possible minimal exceptions). …. S: I wouldn’t say so. Concepts can never act as dependence (nissaya) condition, but they are ‘projected’ as Howard said. It is the thinking or projection that does the affecting, not the ‘purple elephant’ or ‘ story about the tree’ itself, other than serving as objects of such projections. … TG: And just what are "conceptual projections"? Where are they projected? Is this a notion you're going to want to support? Isn't this letting delusion lead your thinking? Please read the following closely... Concepts are formed from memories. These are mental objects. It is impossible to have a concept not based on memory. You may say..."I have no memory of a purple elephant." Actually, you do. You have learned about purple and you have learned about elephants. They are both memories and you are just combining them. All fantasies, concepts, imaginations, and so called creativity; are just combinations of things we have previously experienced. It is impossible for states to arise without a "conditional basis." If you believe that a concept is supposed to actually be the purple elephant, than you are confusing "concept" with "purple elephant." A concept of a purple elephant isn't supposed to BE a purple elephant...it is supposed to BE a concept. Randon House College Dictionary definition of "Memory:" the mental capacity or faculty of retaining and reviving impressions, or the recalling or recognizing of previous experience. Concepts are part and parcel of this process. TG:>What is thought...other > than mental > activity engaging a concept? How can a "reality" be supported by a > "non-reality"? This is the point I was making. In my view, your > comments support that > viewpoint (without supporting it). ;-) … S: Ah, but you are the one talking about being ‘supported by a “non-realityâ€? ‘, not us;-). TG: This is patently false and absurd!!! I'm the one saying all possible states of experience are conditioned! It is your quarter who takes the possition that concepts do not exist (or are not real). And in addition to that, when it comes to Nibbana, your quarter claims it is a Nama. Even though it is clearly defined by the Buddha as the complete cessation of feeling, perception, and consciousness. Seems that that the current state of Abhidhamma Studies believes that ... things that arise (concepts) are non-existent (or not real), and things that don't arise (unconditioned Nibbana) exist as a Nama. Wow. For me this alone shows some serious flaws in contemporary Abhidhamma Studies. These conclusions coincide with a belief system that sees things as being too substantial. This entire topic has virtually nothing to do with the Buddha's teachings and wouldn't be necessary at all if it were not for "substantialists" trying to dissect "realities." I will continue to study Abhidhamma now and then, but very cautious of its "substantialist" tendencies. I’m actually delighted to read Howard’s comments above, because I know we’ve discussed this topic at length before. Metta, Sarah TG 41388 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:28am Subject: Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: Dear Htoo and All, Is rupa and citta/cetasika ever considered annamanna sahajata paccaya? I'm thinking of examples such as the heart base and citta or the eye base and seeing consciousness? Thanks Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Steve, Annamanna sahajata paccaya or 'mutuality conascence condition' has specifics relations to dhammas. Your examples are not right. They may be other conditions like prenascence condition or postnascence condition. Or may be vippayutta paccaya or dissociation condition. Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence condition' the relationship can be seen in between a) 4 nama-kkhandhas b) 4 mahabhuta rupas c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. a) Vinnana-kkhandha depends on sanna-kkhandha. Without sanna citta cannot arise. They arise together and depend on each other and so do other nama-kkhandhas. b) Tejo cannot exist without pathavi and vice versa. This is mutuality and again pathavi and tejo arise at the same time. So 4 mahabhuta rupas are in the conditional relationship of 'mutuality conasence condition'. c) At rebirth or at the exact time of patisandhi or linking period there is hadaya vatthu and patisandhi nama-kkhandha. Again they arise together and they depend on each other. This is 'mutuality conasence condition'. But cakkhu vatthu and cakkhuvinnana citta does not relate in such a way of 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence condition'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41389 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: ----In nirodha-samapatti there is no > sankhara dhamma except kammaja-rupa or kamma-derived materials and aharaja-rupa or nutrment-derived materials.---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique wrote: Dear Htoo, Thanks for your answer. It is rather clear on the one hand, on the other hand I am even more confused now. I thought the highest goal in Buddha-dhamma was to reach or realize the state of nibbana. And I believed nirodha and nibbana were the same state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nirodha = nibbana and nibbana = nirodha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique wrote: 1. Then what is the purpose of nirodhi-sammapati? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The purpose is to have nibbana, simply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique question 2: 2. Is it a higher achievement than nibbana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nibbana is nirodha and nirodha is nibbana. So your question has already been answered. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique question 3: 3. Is magga citta present in parinibbana or after arahant's death? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In parinibbana there is no magga citta. Magga cittas arise once and once only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: The question 3 is posed for the following reason: if after the arahant's death there is no more any citta left, therefore this state is equivalent to the state of nirodhi-samapatti where there is no citta either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why it is said that in terms of 'santi' or existence there is only one and only one nibbana. I have to repeat nibbana is nirodha and nirodha is nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: And in reverse order, if nibbana seen by magga-citta is not the same as nirodhi-samapatti, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. The direction and angle of viewing is different here. At the time magga citta arises there is a knower and there also is knowee. Knower is magga citta and knowee is nibbana. As there is a knowee this is not equal to cessation which is norodha-samapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: then parinibbana after the arahant's death is not just mindless state. Thanks, With mahametta, Cosmique ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Nibbana cannot be thought out with logic. It is not the subject of logic. But it is the subject of attainment by meditative practice which again needs a lot of energy and full perfections that is when all conditions are right. For your above arguement please consider asannisattas or non- percipient beings. They do not have any mind or any citta at all. But it is not nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41390 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread (245) Dear Dhamma Friends, It is sometimes hard to think of hell beings, some animals that are not described in zoological classification system like naaga (serpentine species) and supanna (avian species), ghosts, and demons. But once one is reborn in any of these 4 woeful planes of existence it is a great loss. Arising of patisandhi citta in any of these four realms already determines what species one should be. This arising is not without a cause. Venerable Assaji said to Upatissa 'Ye dhammaa hetuppabhava, tesam hetum tathagato aaha. Tesanca yo nirodho evam vadi maha samano 'ti.' All arising have a cause. Arising of apaya patisandhi citta (ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta) has the reason. As it is vipaka citta or resultant consciousness there must have been something at the time of cooking. Vipaka dhammas are cooked results. Who are cooking things? And who are no more cooking anything? Non-arahats are still cooking things. They may be cooking good food or bad food. When it is cooked the resultant dhammas or cooked results are vipaka dhammas. Good cooking are performing of kusala actions at kaya-dvara, vaci- dvara, and mano-dvara. Bad cooking are performing of akusala actions at kaya-dvara, vaci- dvara, and mano-dvara. When bad cooking is being done this means akusala dhammas are being carried out. There are 12 akusala cittas and 14 akusala cetasikas. These 14 akusala cetasikas when arise in akusala cittas are also associated with universal cetasikas and some particular cetasikas. But the main culprit are akusala cetasikas and the chief is akusala citta. As long as akusala cittas can arise there are still creating kamma and these kamma will give rise to akusala vipaka cittas. But for rebirth the akusala kamma is worse than any other kamma. When a being is just going to die this may be one of many different states. Because there are many mode of death. Time delay from a point of clear knowledge of 'going to die' to the point of death is different in different dying beings. Whatever the case whether sudden death or down-going death or planned death any death has sequence of events of nama and rupa. When dying, there start to race many kamma. Yes. They are racing. These kamma may be kamma done near dying or may be kamma done in a life time or even kamma done in the far former lives. Just before the death one kamma wins the other and that kamma definitely gives rise to next life patisandhi citta and patisandhi rupa- and nama-kkhandha. There are 10 akusala kamma patha dhamma as described in the previous post. If these akusala dhammas were repeatedly practised in that life they may come up near dying and they start to race and if one succeeds then it is dead sure that the being is going to be reborn in one of 4 woeful planes of existence or 4 apaya bhumis. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41391 From: nina Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:24am Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 e Pilgrimage India 3 e Ignorance is like a black curtain, it conceals the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. There are three ways of wrong thinking that prevent us from seeing the truth. Clinging to the postures of walking, standing, sitting and lying down prevent us from realizing the arising and falling away of the rúpas of the body. We think, for example, of ourselves as sitting. It is saññå which remembers that we are sitting, but we do not realize that what we take for the body which sits consists of rúpas that arise and fall away. Secondly, we are misled by the continuity or succession (santati) of nåma and of rúpa. They arise and fall away immediately to be followed by a succeeding one and therefore we think that they are lasting. It seems that we are seeing people, and that seeing lasts, but in reality many cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another. It seems that paying attention to shape and form occurs at the same time as seeing, but these are different moments. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, translated in Wheel no. 155-158) that the Buddha said: ³No other thing do I know, O monks, that so quickly changes as the mind: Inasmuch that it is not easy to give an illustration for the mind's quick change.² We believe that we see persons, and this prevents us from realizing the impermanence of visible object. Thirdly, we are also misled by remembrance of a ³group², gana saññå. We experience nåmas as a group, a whole, and rúpas as a group. We see only a ³whole² of different dhammas. We cling to the idea of a person who exists, whereas in reality a person is only citta, cetasika and rúpa which arise and fall away immediately. **** Nina. 41392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Hi Steve, I am just butting in if I may. At the moment of rebirth-consciousness the heartbase arises together with citta and they condition one another by way of sahajaata-paccaya and aññamañña-paccaya, but not during life. Then the heartbase has to arise before the citta it conditions. Also eyebase has to arise before seeing consciousness because rupa is too weak at its arising moment to serve as base or as object. Nina. op 27-01-2005 00:51 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > Is rupa and citta/cetasika ever considered annamanna sahajata > paccaya? I'm thinking of examples such as the heart base and citta or > the eye base and seeing consciousness? 41393 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 > The conversation between Khanti Khema and Htoo Naing continued at > dhammasukha site. kel: Interesting conversion but I don't think either of you will budge from your positions. I'm noticing the same pattern in various threads of people over-generalizing their position and expecting everyone to think in the same way. Khema's points are obviously from their teacher since it's repetition of his book. I don't see why to show merits of a particular way or technique, one has to devalue others? Is it because it's insufficient by itself and by lowering everything else it can be seen as higher? Everyone is at their own stage of development and as long as they're trying to follow the teachings, I don't see a problem with it. I'm feeling like a waste of time to discuss these finer points as they really have no impact on one's ultimate goal. I did remember one categorization of suitability of four satipatthana methods for different types of people. Kaya - high tanha and low wisdom Vedana - high tanha and high wisdom Citta - high ditthi and low wisdom Dhamma - high ditthi and high wisdom Maybe some people prefer anatta because it's directly opposite of ditthi and so emphasis is on dhammanupassana. That is perhaps reflected in their inclination to see the ultimate realities. I guess it's hard to not show bias in everything we discuss. Perhaps we're too quick to blame the techniques without considering our incompatibilities or inadequacies. Quite a few people in Burma go from one center to another surveying different techniques. Then they argue the pros and cons of different approaches without really having tried them to the fullest. The worst is probably making conjectures of something they never even tried but somehow are experts of it. - Kelvin 41394 From: connie Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:38pm Subject: liking it when things go my way Dear Friends ;) Most of my 'good intentions' towards the meditation group with its Tibetan flavour went by the wayside and I just quit going altogether for the most part. Guess I just don't have much interest in being the most disagreeable person around all the time. But as it turns out, the group decided to split into two, Tibetan Tuesdays and the rest of us on Wednesdays, so I said I'd start coming again even though I tend to disagree with most of 'the rest', too. I forgot all about it last week and they decided we'd start reading "Old Path, White Clouds: Walking in the Footsteps of the Buddha", which as I understand, is Thich Nhat Hanh's translation/compilation of the Majjhima Nikaya from Pali, Sanskrit and Chinese sources and the only one of his books I think I might be interested in reading, but when I went back to the meeting last night, I took Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" and we started reading it instead. To make it even better to my mind, last night was the first time everyone took more than one turn reading. Here's hoping we make it to "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" one of these days and I end up hanging out with a bunch of disagreeable dinosaurs off-line, too. Thank you, Nina! peace, connie 41395 From: Philip Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 109 - Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Hello all > Samådhi is another word for ekaggat?Ecetasika. Although wrong > concentration and right concentration are both ekaggat?Ecetasika > their qualities are different. Samm?Esamådhi focuses on the object > in the right way, the wholesome way. Getting ahead of things, but can anyone explain in a nutshell what the difference is between this wise concentration and wise attention, another cetasika, which we will be seeing in an upcoming chapter? > The Atthasålin?E(1, Part IV, Chapter 1. 118, 119) states about > ekaggat?E and here it deals actually with samm?Esamådhi (1): > * > "This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has nonscattering > (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as > characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent states as > function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and peace of > mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said: `He who is > concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.?EIt is distinguished by > having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause (2). Like the > steadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so should steadfastness of > mind be understood." Like most beginner Westerners would I come to this group with the idea of concentration being something that is maintained over a longer period of time, by a kind of will power, rather than something that arises with every citta in a conditioned way, and is either wholesome or unwholesome, depending on conditions. Therefore I must say, predictably, that concentration as a universal cetasika that arises with every citta doesn't satisfy my culturally- conditioned assumption of what the Buddha meant by Right Concentration. But if I think of Right Concentration as a series of citta processes that follow one after another with ease (sukha) as condition (along with the fulfillment of the many other conditions that are necessary for kusala) it is easier to understand. If 15 minutes of concentration on a wholesome Dhamma related topic arises it is actually a very long chain of very brief moments of right concentration conditioned by one another? (Of course with many, many moments where there is wrong concentration when the wholesome topic falls away again and again?) And for there to be right concentration in this sense, there must be right understanding of realities? Therefore, right concentration in this sense would be a very rare thing. Again, this would go against my cultural assumptions, but having one's cultural assumptions broken down is central to understanding Dhamma. Metta, Phil 41396 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, > when it comes to Nibbana, your quarter claims it is a Nama. Even though it is > clearly defined by the Buddha as the complete cessation of feeling, perception, > and consciousness. > ... > don't arise (unconditioned Nibbana) exist as a Nama. Kel: I don't think this part of your message is true? The model is nama has Nibbana as the object for the 4 magga and 4 phala cittas. While the 5 khandas still exist as a being, complete cessation can't really be achieved. The closest one can get while alive is niroda-sampatti which does have absence of mind and mind- caused matter. But the kamma given body is still there, persisting and interacting with the environment. Unlike normal conditioned phenomena, nibbana isn't caused by the magga/phala cittas. It exists and the mind merely adverts to it. For arahats after final death, the nibbana obtained is as you described. But let's not confuse the context and different ways of attaining or experiencing nibbana. Niroda is really about emulating actual experience (final attainment/death) of Nibbana while still being alive. Phala sampatti is mostly seeking solace from conditioned phenomena while being alive by taking the object that is unconditioned and thus unchanged in nibbana. Notice jhana samapatti functions the same way except that object is artificially created by the mind. - kel 41397 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Howard Kamma is just cause and effect. If kamma can influence the mind, it will be kamma first and not ignorance first as in D.O. The exhaustion of rebirth is only through the extinguishing of kamma which in turns is only possible through the eradication of the latency of the roots. In one of the sutta, I remember it was said that the view that our present action is determined by the cause of our past action is a false view. Ken O 41398 From: seisen_au Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Dear Htoo, Nina and All, Thank you for your replies. wrote: > Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence > condition' the relationship can be seen in between > > a) 4 nama-kkhandhas > b) 4 mahabhuta rupas > c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa > > These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. Are these 3 examples the only situations where annamanna sahajata paccaya can be found? Thanks Steve 41399 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 2. Hi Nina, I don't think we are communicating on this question. The problem might be different ways of understanding the word 'experience'. When I ask when in mind door process do we experience a cetasika you answer in the javana series. What this says to me is that we react to a cetasika in the javana series. Let's simplify and ask when do we experience a feeling? Suppose there is the experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. Where do we locate that experience of feeling in citta process? Alternately, suppose I dislike that feeling. Where do we locate in citta process the experience of unpleasant mental feeling that arises with the dislike? Does that mental feeling as experience arise in a following citta process after the citta process in which the dislike arose? In the case of neither the bodily feeling nor the mental feeling is feeling an object of consciousness when it first arises. Does that mean it is not experienced then? Is dislike experienced when it first arises? It also is not an object of consciousness at that time. Larry