41400 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:47pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, It took you a long time to respond to this thread. I hope you are not too busy and are keeping well. The teachers Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta did not teach the Buddha the four jhanas. Again, the Buddha had only achieved the first jhana while a child- I already gave you the appropriate sutta quotation regarding this. What do you have to say about this sutta quotation? One does not need to go through the four jhanas to attain the immaterial attainments- however, one can achieve them from the fourth jhana (though that isn't recommended by the Buddha because it could result in rebirth in those realms). Jhana is the eight factor and the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path- there is simply no getting around that. Anyone who is familiar with the original teachings of the Buddha has to admit that or he/she is clearly in denial. Also, you gave some sutta references; would you mind quoting the specific parts of those suttas which are applicable to the points you make? Metta, James ps. Have you ever practiced meditation of ANY type? If not, it is unlikely that you will ever understand this subject. (What is written in books doesn't match actual experience and you would have no experience to use as a reference point.) 41401 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/27/05 1:09:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Concepts are formed from memories. These are mental objects. =================== I do know what you mean. I had thought about this matter exactly as you do, but I've come to see what I think of as a problem with it. When I "see a tree", there is seeing - perhaps multiple "seeings", and there is also a mental process that leads me to "see a tree". It leads me to project a concept of tree upon the sequence of actual rupic and namic events. That process no doubt involves many mindstates. But it is not at all clear to me where in that process is to be found a single mental object that is "concept of tree". It is not only that I don't find a tree as an actual thing; I don't see a "tree concept" as a single mental object either. What seem to me to be the case is that there is a rapid but complex mental process consisting of a multitude of function-events, but nowhere in that do I come across a pinpointable single idea or mental object that is "the concept of tree". (Of course, perhaps I'm not looking carefully enough. That is certainly possible.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41402 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Nibbana and Abhidhamma/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > TG: This is patently false and absurd!!! It is your quarter who takes the > possition that concepts do not exist (or are not real). And in addition to that, > when it comes to Nibbana, your quarter claims it is a Nama. Even though it is > clearly defined by the Buddha as the complete cessation of feeling, perception, > and consciousness. > > Seems that that the current state of Abhidhamma Studies believes that ... > things that arise (concepts) are non-existent (or not real), and things that > don't arise (unconditioned Nibbana) exist as a Nama. Wow. For me this alone > shows some serious flaws in contemporary Abhidhamma Studies. ================== Dear TG, A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are really Buddha vacca. I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called vinnanam for this same reason. Robert 41403 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/27/2005 5:03:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I do know what you mean. I had thought about this matter exactly as you do, but I've come to see what I think of as a problem with it. When I "see a tree", there is seeing - perhaps multiple "seeings", and there is also a mental process that leads me to "see a tree". It leads me to project a concept of tree upon the sequence of actual rupic and namic events. That process no doubt involves many mindstates. But it is not at all clear to me where in that process is to be found a single mental object that is "concept of tree". It is not only that I don't find a tree as an actual thing; I don't see a "tree concept" as a single mental object either. What seem to me to be the case is that there is a rapid but complex mental process consisting of a multitude of function-events, but nowhere in that do I come across a pinpointable single idea or mental object that is "the concept of tree". (Of course, perhaps I'm not looking carefully enough. That is certainly possible.) With metta, Howard Hi Howard All states are "multifaceted." We can't speak of anything if we want to take the point of view that there is "no single thing." However, the Buddha managed to break it down into -- mind-object, mind, and mind-consciousness. Concepts are mind-object. I agree that things are occuring as a sequence of processes and a multitude of function-events. That's almost common sense, but certainly easily backed up by Sutta and abhidhamma, or science for that matter. I don't see any of these considerations to be a problem at all with the analysis. TG 41404 From: jonoabb Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions TG (and Howard) I'd just like to add my 2 bits to this interesting discussion. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: ... > Hi Howard > > All states are "multifaceted." We can't speak of anything if we want to take > the point of view that there is "no single thing." However, the Buddha > managed to break it down into -- mind-object, mind, and mind- consciousness. > Concepts are mind-object. As you say, concepts are mind-object, meaning that they are object of a moment of consciousness. But, and this is the important difference, they are also a creation of that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. All other mind-objects are dhammas of one kind or another that are arising and falling away independently of being the object of consciousness at that moment. This is readily seen I think (intellectually) in the case of dhammas such as visible object and sound, but applies equally where the mind-object is another (immediately past) moment of consciousness or an aspect of it such as anger or attachment or feeling. So I would see concepts as being in a different category to all other mind-objects. Jon 41405 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, Just on these first few lines- --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Sarah > TG: Once the reader believes he or she knows the authors meaning > better > than the author, and that belief is in full disagreement with the > author, even > when the author tries to clarify it by saying -- "you don't understand > my > position," what can be said? …. S: You’re quite right. All I can say is I apologise – of course I don’t know your meaning better than you!! What I meant was that I thought your initial comments were perfectly clearly expressed (your posts are usually very clear) and that I had no doubt that what you clarified (i.e that you were not saying that ‘concepts are non-existent’ etc) was your viewpoint and I understood you were ‘imparting that viewpoint’ to others of us who ‘do not believe that (arisen) concepts are real’ and that you were asking from our ‘point of view how something that isn’t real can affect things that are real’.etc. I answered accordingly and I’m sure it was my reply that didn’t make this clear - I can see why. Of course, I appreciate there were probably all sorts of other aspects behind your words that I didn’t take account of or was not aware of. Again, I’m sorry for any frustration conditioned by my words (ah, and before you think I may have switched sides - that’s short-hand for any thinking about concepts on account of what is seen when you read my posts), which is certainly not intended at all. Metta, Sarah p.s I may get back on other points next week, but I’m glad to see others have taken some of them up in the meantime. I do value the discussions we all have with you TG. ====================== 41406 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:16pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 110 - Concentration/ekaggataa (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Sammå-samådhi is one of the jhåna-factors which are developed in samatha in order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhåna(1). The jhåna factors of applied thought (vitakka), sustained thought (vicåra), enthusiasm (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and samådhi have to be developed together in order to attain jhåna. All the jhåna-factors assist the citta to attain tranquillity by means of a meditation subject. Some people take wrong concentration for right concentration of samatha. They want to try to concentrate on one point with the desire to become relaxed. Then there is akusala citta with clinging to relaxation. The aim of samatha is not what we mean by the word ‘relaxation’ in common language, but it is the temporary elimination of defilements. In order to develop samatha in the right way, right understanding of its development is indispensable. Right understanding should know precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta and it should know the characteristic of calm so that it can be developed. There are different stages of calm and as calm becomes stronger, samådhi also develops (2). *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life Chapter 22. 2) In the beginning stage of calm there is still preparatory concentration (parikamma-samådhi) (Vis. IV, 31-33). When calm has reached the degree that it is approaching jhåna there is access-concentration (upacåra-samådhi). When jhåna has been attained there is at that moment samådhi which is attainment-concentration(appanå-samådhi). ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41407 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:40:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: As you say, concepts are mind-object, meaning that they are object of a moment of consciousness. But, and this is the important difference, they are also a creation of that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. All other mind-objects are dhammas of one kind or another that are arising and falling away independently of being the object of consciousness at that moment. This is readily seen I think (intellectually) in the case of dhammas such as visible object and sound, but applies equally where the mind-object is another (immediately past) moment of consciousness or an aspect of it such as anger or attachment or feeling. So I would see concepts as being in a different category to all other mind-objects. Jon Hi Jon I think its being made overly complicated by most of these arguments/positions. I see it differently than you put it above. (Unfortunately, the below paragraph a little complicated too.) The mind stores memories as "potential concepts." (The concepts are potential, but the memories are real impressions.) These "potential concepts" arise as a cognitive event (arisen concepts) when the mind pays attention to them (the memory impressions) and such contact is established. Just as a "potential visual object" (that is not currently being seen) becomes an "arisen visual object" when the mind pays attention to it and such contact is established. There's no difference. They are both formed and experienced as forces and conditions. Just as a "mountain" (as an example) is altering according to conditions, and changing accordingly; so too are memories altering according to conditions, and changing accordingly. Different conditions alter at different rates. Though a concept may seem to last only a brief moment, and a mountain might appear relatively unchanged for hundreds of years, they are both subject to change. There's nothing "magically different" about concepts. They're just another type of condition. They conform to the principles of Dependent Origination. One might think that concepts disappear and make no lasting impression. But I still have Sarah's "purple elephant" in my head. ;-) The techologies that are at our "beck and call" could not have arisen without concepts. That's a lot of "lasting" impact. TG 41408 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Larry, op 28-01-2005 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I don't think we are communicating on this question. The problem might > be different ways of understanding the word 'experience'. N: I see what you mean, the word experience is very wide. For precision, let me review classes of objects (see my ADL, Ch 16): five classes include the sense objects. The sixth class is dhammaarama.na, that can be experienced only through the mind-door. This class includes: the five sense organs, subtle rupas, citta, cetasika, nibbaana and concepts. The word experience may denote: noting, cognizing without pañña or with pañña, or thinking of it. I catch myself thinking of I who notices, but in fact it is only citta that notices. We are so used to a self who notices, even though we do not realize this. It happens unknowingly. Here the classifcations of the Abhidhamma can help us. Which citta experiences which object and when. L: When I ask > when in mind door process do we experience a cetasika you answer in the > javana series. What this says to me is that we react to a cetasika in > the javana series. > Let's simplify and ask when do we experience a feeling? Suppose there is > the experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. N: Unpleasant bodily feeling arises and it experiences an unpleasant tangible object. It is only one moment of vipaakacitta accompanied by this feeling that is also vipaaka. Feeling itself experiences this object. But we are so used to think of me who experiences that we ask ourselves when and where. Let us consider the whole subject in an impersonal way, otherwise we become confused. This is quite a correction of attitude and not easy. That is why I started with the above classification. We should apply this when we consider experiences. The aim is to see anatta. But had the Buddha not taught this, we would not know and be confused forever. L: Where do we locate that experience of feeling in citta process? N: Experience of feeling, this can be interpreted in different ways. 1: The experience which is feeling: if it is bodily feeling it accompanies body-consciousness and arises in the body-door process. Also in that process there are javanacittas which may be akusala cittas (dislike of the unpleasant object) or kusala cittas. 2. I think you refer to this meaning of . Feeling, in this case bodily feeling, can be the object of cittas arising later on in a mind-door process, and these may notice the bodily feeling that just arise before. But, first there is a mind-door process of cittas that experience the same unpleasant object as the preceding sense-door process. Thus, many processes follow upon each other extremely fast, and there are bhavangacittas in between. There is bound to be confusion, because it all seems to occur at the same time. But in reality it does not. L: Alternately, suppose I dislike that feeling. Where do we locate in citta > process the experience of unpleasant mental feeling that arises with the > dislike? N: You dislike a feeling, whatever it may be, or citta with aversion takes as object feeling. In a mind-door process. See classification above: it helps for orientation. Otherwise we may get lost in our thinking. L: Does that mental feeling as experience arise in a following > citta process after the citta process in which the dislike arose? N: Suppose in a sense-door process javanacittas with aversion and unpleasant mental feeling arise after the body-consciousness accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling. Cittas arising in a following mind-door process can cognize or note, thus take as object: dosa or unpleasant mental feeling, or unpleasant bodily feeling, or the unpleasant hardness or heat. Many objects, but only one at a time is cognized by citta. Nobody can direct cittas and objects, it is all very fast. Impermanent and anatta. L In the case of neither the bodily feeling nor the mental feeling is > feeling an object of consciousness when it first arises. Does that mean > it is not experienced then? N: Feeling always accompanies citta and it shares the same object as the citta, any of the six classes of objects, see above. At that very moment citta does not cognize itself, nor its accompanying feeling. They just experience the object that has presented itself. Feeling at that moment experiences, it experiences the flavour of the object. When you have the idea that you notice feeling right when it arises, this means, citta arising in a following process cognizes feeling. Again, quite a correction of our usual ideas. L: Is dislike experienced when it first arises? > It also is not an object of consciousness at that time. N: The same as above. Citta accompanied by aversion and unpleasant feeling experience an object they dislike. That object is experienced at that moment. The citta that is accompanied by dislike could not take that very dislike as object, because citta and cetasikas can experience only one object at a time. Nina. 41409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. Dear Steve, op 28-01-2005 01:27 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > wrote: >> Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence >> condition' the relationship can be seen in between >> >> a) 4 nama-kkhandhas >> b) 4 mahabhuta rupas >> c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa >> >> These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. > > Are these 3 examples the only situations where annamanna sahajata > paccaya can be found? N: The condition which is sahajaata-paccaya concerns many dhammas, and the mutuality condition only a few. As to c, there is a differentiation. At the first moment of our life, three dasakas, groups of rupa arise at the same time as rebirth-consciousness, but only the heart-base and the rebirth-consciousness condition one another by way of mutuality condition. It cannot be said of the bodysense or sex decad that arise at that time. The 4 great elements are related to each other by way of sahajata paccaya and mutuality but as to the derived rupas that arise together with these, there is no mutuality relation between the four great Elements and the derived rupas. You may like to get Guide to conditional Relations, U Narada. Nina. 41410 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Steve, > op 28-01-2005 01:27 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > > wrote: > >> Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence > >> condition' the relationship can be seen in between > >> a) 4 nama-kkhandhas > >> b) 4 mahabhuta rupas > >> c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa > >> These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. > > Are these 3 examples the only situations where annamanna sahajata > > paccaya can be found? N: The condition which is sahajaata-paccaya concerns many dhammas, and the mutuality condition only a few. As to c, there is a differentiation. At the first moment of our life, three dasakas, groups of rupa arise at the same time as rebirth- consciousness, but only the heart-base and the rebirth-consciousness condition one another by way of mutuality condition. It cannot be said of the bodysense or sex decad that arise at that time.The 4 great elements are related to each other by way of sahajata paccaya and mutuality but as to the derived rupas that arise together with these,there is no mutuality relation between the four great Elements and the derived rupas.You may like to get Guide to conditional Relations, U Narada. Nina. > > Thanks > > Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your answer. With respect, Htoo 41411 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Steve, > I am just butting in if I may. > At the moment of rebirth-consciousness the heartbase arises together with > citta and they condition one another by way of sahajaata-paccaya and > aññamañña-paccaya, but not during life. Then the heartbase has to arise > before the citta it conditions. Also eyebase has to arise before seeing > consciousness because rupa is too weak at its arising moment to serve as > base or as object. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Steve and All, Thanks Nina. I never assume dhamma discussion as butting in. Yes. It is only at the very time of patisandhi. So it is already modified as 'okkantikkhana'. Otherwise rupa and nama condition each other in other conditional relationship like prenascence or postnascence or other conditions. With respect, Htoo Naing 41412 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > The conversation between Khanti Khema and Htoo Naing continued at > dhammasukha site. kel: Interesting conversion but I don't think either of you will budge from your positions. I'm noticing the same pattern in various threads of people over-generalizing their position and expecting everyone to think in the same way. Khema's points are obviously from their teacher since it's repetition of his book. I don't see why to show merits of a particular way or technique, one has to devalue others? Is it because it's insufficient by itself and by lowering everything else it can be seen as higher? Everyone is at their own stage of development and as long as they're trying to follow the teachings, I don't see a problem with it. I'm feeling like a waste of time to discuss these finer points as they really have no impact on one's ultimate goal. I did remember one categorization of suitability of four satipatthana methods for different types of people. Kaya - high tanha and low wisdom Vedana - high tanha and high wisdom Citta - high ditthi and low wisdom Dhamma - high ditthi and high wisdom Maybe some people prefer anatta because it's directly opposite of ditthi and so emphasis is on dhammanupassana. That is perhaps reflected in their inclination to see the ultimate realities. I guess it's hard to not show bias in everything we discuss. Perhaps we're too quick to blame the techniques without considering our incompatibilities or inadequacies. Quite a few people in Burma go from one center to another surveying different techniques. Then they argue the pros and cons of different approaches without really having tried them to the fullest. The worst is probably making conjectures of something they never even tried but somehow are experts of it. - Kelvin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thank you very much for your kind and fully revealed message. I understand what you want to mean. I know. Khema has a good nature. But when I cannot reveal her as you did now to us (Khema and me) I have just to say 'things are going on their own'. You know. I avoided here Pali equivalent. Some old members even think that 'things are going on their own' is a swearing word. When layers are very thick they have to break with dynamite. At that time there do have hurting. But I hardly use dynamite. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: The pair tried to promote but when not succeed they retreated.:-) 41413 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (246) Dear Dhamma Friends, In a dying being there is a racing competition of kamma. Actaully these events are part and parcel of arising and passing away matter of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. If arising is 'at the very beginning of a life' that arising is called 'patisandhi'. Pati means 'again' and 'sandhi' means 'linking' 'sticking' 'joining'. At other time these arising and passing away of dhamma are said to be 'happening at pavatti kala'. Kala means 'time' 'era' 'period'. When a being is just going to die there is a racing of kamma. Once there was a rich man and he did a lot of kusala in his life time. But because of his old akusala there arose akusala vipaka as suffering of a deadly disease. All his children supported him to pass away at ease. They did kusala actions on behalf of their father. They invited sanghas or monks to their father's home and offered feeding to those monks. Monks gave a good blessing and preached dhamma. At that time the father is dying. They invited monks to create good marana-asanna kamma. In the middle of dhamma preaching the father shouted 'Please stop! Please stop!'. The monks stop preaching dhamma. At that time the father asked why they stopped dhamma preaching and again monks bearing compassion continued to preach dhamma. Again the father shouted 'Please stop! Please stop!'. The monks stopped. The father asked why they stopped dhamma preaching. Soon he passed away. He had a good nature. He did kusala in his life time. He had enough kusala kamma to be reborn in sugati bhumi or profitable realm. His children were all worried because of their father behaviour. Actually the father is seeing 'a deva vehicle driven by devas and devas were waiting for him'. This is rupa-arammana. Actually he stopped devas for a while because he was listening to dhamma preaching. But no one saw devas and they believed their father was confused and weak and out of mental order and so he stopped the monks. The father was reborn in deva realm. Near dying there is a racing competition of kamma. Regarding these kamma there are 4 kinds of kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma 2. asanna kamma 3. acinna kamma 4. katattaa kamma Lahu means 'light' while garu means 'heavy'. Garuka kamma are very heavy kamma. They are so heavy that no other kamma can hinder them. Example kamma are rupa jhana kusala kamma and arupa jhana kusala kamma. They give rise to rebirth in rupa brahma and arupa brahma respectively. Regarding akusala kamma there are anantariya kamma. They are 1. killing own father 2. killing own mother 3. killing arahats 4. division of the Sangha 5. bruising to The Live Buddha These akusala kamma are so heavy that as soon as being concerned die they have to be reborn in avici-niraya bhumi or hell realm of the worst station. If there is no such garuka kamma then 'kamma' that have been done near dying come first. If there is no such kamma then 'kamma' that were committed in this life time but not necessarily near dying come first. If there is no such many kamma then 'kamma' in the previous lives including the whole samsara in the past come up. Again as there were many many kamma they race and finally one kamma succeeds over the other and it serves as final kamma in this life time by creating marana-asanna-javana citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41414 From: nina Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:45am Subject: Pilgrimage India, 3 f Pilgrimage India, 3 f Nåma and rúpa are impersonal elements. We should remember the words of the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the third Book of the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on Elements (Dhåtu-Kathå, P.T.S.): "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have brought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions." When I was standing next to Acharn Sujin in Savatthí near the place of the Buddha¹s dwelling, I said that I kept on thinking with attachment to whatever I experience. She answered that it is helpful to remember that there are conditions for all dhammas that occur, and that thinking is only a conditioned dhamma. All situations in our life can be a test for our understanding, no matter we have pleasant or sorrowful experiences. Satipatthåna can be developed naturally in daily life so that we come to understand our accumulated wholesome and unwholesome inclinations. Eventually these can be known as non-self. Through satipatthåna we learn that whatever is experienced are only nåmas and rúpas arising because of conditions. The four applications of mindfulness are not theory, but pertain to everyday life and basic human behaviour. The understanding of our life as nåma and rúpa will lead to more patience when we face difficult situations and to more tolerance in our dealings with others. If we do not develop understanding we shall be lost in pleasure, we shall stay in the ocean of ignorance and clinging. Dhamma should be our island in this ocean. ******* Nina. 41415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'- Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Hello Phil, op 28-01-2005 00:07 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Getting ahead of things, but can anyone explain in a nutshell what > the difference is between this wise concentration and wise attention, > another cetasika, which we will be seeing in an upcoming chapter? N: Manasikaara cetasika arises with each citta, kusala, akusala, or indeterminate. The word wise attention is not used for this cetasika, but, as we shall see, wise attention refers to citta, the mind-door adverting consciousness which is then followed by kusala cittas. There are three manasikaaras, two are cittas, one is cetasika. Also the Tiika of the Vis. deals with these. Manasikaara cetasika joins citta and cetasika to the object whereas concentration sees to it that each citta focusses on only one object. >> Ph: ....(snip) I must > say, predictably, that concentration as a universal cetasika that > arises with every citta doesn't satisfy my culturally- conditioned > assumption of what the Buddha meant by Right Concentration. N: Right concentration is wholesome, it is developed in samatha and in vipassana it arises with right understanding, by conditions. In samatha the aim is calm that is freedom from infatuation with sense objects. In vipassana it is a factor of the eightfold Path that arises together with right understanding of the eightfold Path. Ph: But if I > think of Right Concentration as a series of citta processes that > follow one after another with ease (sukha) as condition(along with > the fulfillment of the many other conditions that are necessary for > kusala) it is easier to understand. N: Pleasant feeling, sukha, is mentioned as a jhanafactor. We have to consider it in this context. It is the proximate cause of samadhi in the case of four stages of rupa-jhana, not the fifth stage. Ph: If 15 minutes of concentration on > a wholesome Dhamma related topic arises it is actually a very long > chain of very brief moments of right concentration conditioned by one > another? (Of course with many, many moments where there is wrong > concentration when the wholesome topic falls away again and again?) N: I would rather stress understanding, also in samatha. Precise, thorough understanding of kusala citta as being different from akusala citta. The subject itself is not kusla and it does not fall away since it is a concept. Ph: And for there to be right concentration in this sense, there must > be right understanding of realities? N: sati-sampajañña, sati and right understanding of the level of samatha. Thus, understanding of one's different cittas and of true calm, and of the way how to attain calm with the meditation subject. Ph: Therefore, right concentration > in this sense would be a very rare thing. Again, this would go > against my cultural assumptions, but having one's cultural > assumptions broken down is central to understanding Dhamma. N: Yes, the outlook is altogether different. But some people like to adapt the Dhamma to their way of thinking. It is hard to give up what one is used to. Nina. 41417 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:23pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James and Ken O., > Jhana is the eight factor and the culmination of the Noble Eightfold > Path- there is simply no getting around that. Anyone who is familiar > with the original teachings of the Buddha has to admit that or > he/she is clearly in denial. James, the above passage ( from your message # 41400) assures me of my correct understanding that sama-samadhi is the attainment of the four rupa-jhanas that are supported by the previous 7 Path factors. Indeed, the Buddha repeated such definition over and over in several discourses. He did not say anything like Ken O. stated in his message # 41382 as follows: > Please read the email > I send to James on the difference on jhanas by an ariyan and a > ordinary person. The jhanas are the same but the result are different > because one is pre-conditioned by panna while the other is > just kusala behavior without panna. So it may have been Ken's own extension beyond the Buddha's words. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > It took you a long time to respond to this thread. I hope you are > not too busy and are keeping well. > > The teachers Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta did not teach the 41418 From: nowtide Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:37am Subject: Greetings Greetings and appologies to those of you who may be on another list and have already received a similar e-mail from me but Im hoping to find the best fit for me in terms of a group to discuss practice issues. My name is Chris, Ive just signed up and am looking forward to practicing with this virtual Sangha. My reason for joining is related to my wanting to re start my meditation practice after about a year. About 1.5 years ago I had a very intense experience on a Vipassana retreat. I have done a few but never had anythin that intense happen before. After that experience I felt myself rejecting Buddhism and meditation in general. I switched practices and began focussing on a Jhana practice with some success. I am ready to begin doing Vipassana again and am hoping to get some advice and clarification related to my exoerience, is this an acceptable forum to discuss such experiences? A question that has arisen out of my Shamatha practice after reading something by Bhante Gunaratana. Bhante G says that it is beneficial to access first Jhana before turning to Vipassana. My question is: Is it possible to practice Vipassana IN first Jhana? Or does one enter first Jhana and then retract into Access COncentration at which point one can turn to Vipassana? From my experience with Jhana it does not seem so compatible with Vipassana inthat I am unable to observe the three characteristics in anything while in absorption. I find doing so deminishes the experience and I find myself in Access concentration. Chris 41419 From: nowtide Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 0:49pm Subject: jhanas My question is related to the dry vs. wet Vipassana debate. From those who I have spoken to that have done the dry insight practice. That is Vipassana without Jhana practice as taught in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. They describe an experience that sounds a lot like my experience of being in Jhana- actually the bliss and intensity sounds like it is much deeper than what I feel when in Jhana. My question is: Is this Jhana? Can momentary concentration from the Mahasi method result in Jhana? If it is not Jhana then what exactly are they experiencing given that their description matches that of Jhana? Chris 41420 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/27/05 7:17:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Kamma is just cause and effect. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Kamma, as the Buddha described it, is intention - not more nor less. There are other causes (better - "conditions") besides one's kamma. ------------------------------------ If kamma can influence the mind, it> > will be kamma first and not ignorance first as in D.O. ----------------------------------- Howard: No reason for that at all. Kamma is indeed conditioned by ignorance. ----------------------------------- > The > exhaustion of rebirth is only through the extinguishing of kamma > which in turns is only possible through the eradication of the > latency of the roots. ------------------------------------ Howard: So? Indeed, ignorance is to be uprooted. ------------------------------------ In one of the sutta, I remember it was said> > that the view that our present action is determined by the cause of > our past action is a false view. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't get the point. ----------------------------------- > > Ken O > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41421 From: Philip Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 b Hello Nina and all > Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black curtain, > they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. When we see, it always > seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only visible object > can impinge on the eyesense. It seems unlikely that this will change in the short run (ie a few lifetimes.) How can it when it is so deeply accumulated? And there is our cultural environment that only makes it more difficult. The truth that in the absolute sense there are no people is basic Dhamma that can be learned from one's first brush with the Khandas, but there is such resistance to it. We have to live in the world and deal with the world's values (most of us) and this will be far more likely to darken the curtain. This is why the Buddha stressed heedfulness in his final words. Moment by moment by moment our ignorance is deepening rather than lightening - unless we are heedful. There is no time to waste. Even during the minute or so it took me to type this there has been so much ignorance even though I might think that typing a Dhamma-related paragraph involves wisdom. Well, there is some of that too. Moha and amoha coming and going, beyond my control, due to conditions. Heedfulness with respect to this! The world is on fire through the six doors. >We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but > when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of Dhamma, > the island of satipatthåna. We read in the Parinibbåna Sutta (Wheel > Publication, 67-69) that the Buddha spoke about his old age, and exhorted > Ånanda: > > ³Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto > yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, > the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... I must admit that this is one of the teachings that I never quite "get." The idea of refuge is a bit dangerous, I think, if it is not accompanied by right understanding, and for me there is not enough right understanding to be able to have refuge yet. There is no refuge except right understanding of realities, and that doesn't happen because the Buddha tells us to do it. We can be heedful because the Buddha tells us to do it, if the conditions are right. In reality, isn't the island an island which is constantly being overswept by giant waves of ignorance, which recede and leave us on dry land momentarily before they come roaring up to drown out right understanding again and again and again? That's the way it feels for me, anyways. There is not yet anything a true refuge from the subtle suffering caused by feeding on thoughts of past and future, even if I say that I have taken refuge in the Buddha's teaching. > Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical phenomena > and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them as > non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away > immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but > because of saññ?E remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and > things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, > att?Esaññ These remembrances and anticipations. They consume me all day, with only very rare moments when something resembling right understanding (in theory) returns to subdue them momentarily. And then they return. Don't get me wrong. I'm not discouraged. Being able to see the way this goes on is already a step in the right direction. Metta, Phil p.s thanks for your responses in the Cetasika corner, Nina. I've printed them out and will be reflecting on them. 41422 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/ Hi, Robert (and TG) - In a message dated 1/27/05 8:19:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear TG, > A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was > invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are > really Buddha vacca. > I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: > The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is > "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, > Kevatta Suttam, > Silakkhandhavagga, > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Robert, I never expected to see the day that you would be quoting that consciousness-unmanifestive-luminous-all-around material in defense of anything! ;-) I agree that nibbana might well be thought of as a mode of luminous, boundless experience with no manifestation of knowing subject. And that would be nama. ----------------------------------------- > If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it > being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? > It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by > citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called > vinnanam for this same reason. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Here I disagree. Hardness and sights are known by citta as well, right? So they should also be classified as nama by that line of reasoning. ----------------------------------------- > Robert > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41423 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon (and TG) - In a message dated 1/27/05 10:39:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > > TG (and Howard) > > I'd just like to add my 2 bits to this interesting discussion. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > ... > >Hi Howard > > > >All states are "multifaceted." We can't speak of anything if we > want to take > >the point of view that there is "no single thing." However, the > Buddha > >managed to break it down into -- mind-object, mind, and mind- > consciousness. > >Concepts are mind-object. > > As you say, concepts are mind-object, meaning that they are object > of a moment of consciousness. But, and this is the important > difference, they are also a creation of that very moment of > consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of > consciousness of which they are the object. > > All other mind-objects are dhammas of one kind or another that are > arising and falling away independently of being the object of > consciousness at that moment. This is readily seen I think > (intellectually) in the case of dhammas such as visible object and > sound, but applies equally where the mind-object is another > (immediately past) moment of consciousness or an aspect of it such > as anger or attachment or feeling. > > So I would see concepts as being in a different category to all > other mind-objects. > > Jon > ========================= I don't see this matter at all as you do, Jon. The way you describe concepts here is almost *exactly* the way I would describe paramattha dhammas. (That is: Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object.) And I do not accord even this degree of reality to concepts! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41424 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Nina, Here's the way I see it: N: "1: The experience which is feeling: if it is bodily feeling it accompanies body-consciousness and arises in the body-door process." This is exactly what I am talking about. Feeling IS experience. It is misleading to say feeling experiences some other dhamma. An object of consciousness is a condition for the arising of that consciousness (or cetasika), but, as object, the object is not an experience. An unpleasant bodily feeling arises as experience and conditions the arising of aversion. When aversion arises there is no experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. Similarly, the experience which is bodily feeling is not the experience that is body consciousness and the experience that is body consciousness is not rupa, and rupa is not an experience. If we take this view it seems to me there are multiple simultaneous experiences that are cetasikas arising in any given moment. I think the reason it seems like we experience only one thing at a time is because of deluded perception. Perception will take one dhamma of many that arise to act as symbol or sign to represent the 'whole' group. Often this one sign then becomes a condition for the arising of another group of experiences (cetasikas). There may be problems with the role of perception here. Maybe there is a better way to explain it. In the specific case of 'taking an object of consciousness', as in jhana, perhaps we could say a repeated clear sign is the condition for the jhana factors to arise (simultaneously) rather than saying the jhana factors experience the sign. The sign is an experience and the jhana factors are experiences but it doesn't make sense to me to say one experience experiences another experience. Larry 41425 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings Hi Chris, Welcome to the group. C: "My question is: Is it possible to practice Vipassana IN first Jhana? Or does one enter first Jhana and then retract into Access COncentration at which point one can turn to Vipassana?" L: My understanding is that it is not possible to practice vipassana while in jhana except for one special case, when emptiness is the object of jhana. Emptiness here is the experience that is the reality of empty of permanence, or empty of desire, or empty of self. This is not an ordinary object condition so it might take some time and study to develop it. Larry 41426 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/ In a message dated 1/27/2005 5:19:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear TG, A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are really Buddha vacca. I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called vinnanam for this same reason. Robert Hi Robert I didn't see your post until I happened to read Howard's reply. I'm flattered that you would think that I know Pali well enough to be able to understand a whole line of very complex material without needing an English translation. But unfortunately not. I'm going to comment on your comments in the post Howard responded to and use his translation there as a base. Cya there. TG 41427 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert In a message dated 1/28/2005 3:59:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, Robert (and TG) - In a message dated 1/27/05 8:19:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear TG, > A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was > invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are > really Buddha vacca. > I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: > The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is > "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, > Kevatta Suttam, > Silakkhandhavagga, > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Robert, I never expected to see the day that you would be quoting that consciousness-unmanifestive-luminous-all-around material in defense of anything! ;-) I agree that nibbana might well be thought of as a mode of luminous, boundless experience with no manifestation of knowing subject. And that would be nama. ----------------------------------------- > If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it > being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? > It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by > citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called > vinnanam for this same reason. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Here I disagree. Hardness and sights are known by citta as well, right? So they should also be classified as nama by that line of reasoning. ----------------------------------------- > Robert > ===================== With metta, Howard Hi Robert (and Howard) Here's the whole passage translated to English by Walshe.... "Where do earth, fire, water, and air no footing find? Where are long and short, small and great, fair and foul -- Where are name-and-form wholly destroyed? The answer is: "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous, That's where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing, There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -- There name-and-form are wholly destroyed. With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed." End Quote The all-luminous passage is a curiousity. I think it may occur only twice in the Suttas. And according to Walshe's note, the translation of "luminous" is in question. However, assuming that it is accurate, this is the only indication I am aware of in the Suttas that even suggests or hints at some "continuing state" beyond parinibbana. But I'll admit that it is fodder for that viewpoint. ("Luminous" may also be a way of saying "pure" but I'm speculating.) With that said, if the quote is examined, it can be seen that twice it says that -- "name-and-form are WHOLLY DESTROYED." It also says that -- "With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed." # 1 If I compare the obscureness of "luminous" with these direct clearly stated pronouncements...I'll go with the directly stated pronouncements. # 2 I don't see how a "nama" that is wholly destroyed, can still be considered a nama. # 3 The vast majority of the Canon that speaks to this issue speaks about the cessation of name-and-form. These are the reasons I base my thinking on. With this said, I wonder what your reflections are on the matter? TG 41428 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 111 - Concentration/ekaggataa (g) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå cetasika which accompanies rúpåvacara citta (rúpajhånacitta) is altogether different from ekaggatå arising with kåmåvacara citta, citta of the sense-sphere. In each of the higher stages of jhåna there is a higher degree of calm and thus ekaggatå becomes more refined. Ekaggatå which accompanies arúpåvacara citta is different again: it is more tranquil and more refined than ekaggatå arising with rúpåvacara citta. There is also sammå-samådhi of vipassanå. As we have seen, the second manifestation of ekaggatå cetasika or samådhi mentioned by the Atthasåliní is knowledge or wisdom. When paññå knows a nåma or a rúpa as it is, there is at that moment also right concentration performing its function. Sammå-samådhi is one of the factors of the eightfold Path. When paññå knows, for example, the visible object which presents itself as only a rúpa appearing through the eyes or the seeing which presents itself as only a nåma which experiences visible object, there is also right concentration at that moment: sammå samådhi focuses on the object in the right way. When sammå-samådhi accompanies lokuttara citta, sammå-samådhi is also lokuttara and it focuses on nibbåna. Then sammå-samådhi is a factor of the supramundane eightfold Path (lokuttara magga). ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41429 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > Like most beginner Westerners would I come to this group with the > idea of concentration being something that is maintained over a > longer period of time, by a kind of will power, rather than something > that arises with every citta in a conditioned way, and is either > wholesome or unwholesome, depending on conditions. Therefore I must > say, predictably, that concentration as a universal cetasika that > arises with every citta doesn't satisfy my culturally- conditioned > assumption of what the Buddha meant by Right Concentration. _____________________ Dear Phil, Good points. It is not difficult to have concentration- you can take any object, such as breath, and focus on it; do it with enough energy and poerful levels of concentration will occur. What is difficult is having right concentration. So its useful to know what wrong concentration is: In the Dhammasangani under Akusala dhammas 386- What is the power of concentration? That which is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, unshakeableness, non-distraction, imperturabilty, tranqulity of mind, the faculty of concentration, power of concentration, WRONG concentration- this is at that time the power of concentration. This type of wrong concentration is tranquil and powerful - but it arises with lobha (attachment). It can be very nice and peaceful. Robertk 41430 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:09pm Subject: Universal Friendliness ... !!! Friends: The 11 Advantages of cultivating Friendliness, Amity & Goodwill. The 11 benefits, 11 profits, 11 effects, the 11 results of developing the: The four Brahma Viharas The four Divine States The four Supreme States The four Boundless States in short METTA The Blessed Buddha said: 'Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it, frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the base, the medium , the foundation, by persisting in it, by making it a good habit, by being well established in it. What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes up Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison nor Weapon ! One swiftly Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment nor Panic ! One reappears after death as a Divine Brahma if gone no higher here! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Unlimited & Universal Friendliness, by cultivating Infinite, Immeasurable & Inestimable Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making it Endless & Limitless, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by maintaining it continuously, by properly consolidating it, securing it, stabilizing it, by thoroughly undertaking it, refining & perfecting it, by making it a familiar habit, an automatic reflex by so being indeed quite well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected...!' Source: The Numerical Sayings (Anguttara Nikaya) V [342]. The book of the elevens. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 41431 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings Hi Chris (N), Welcome to DSG. You're most welcome to discuss your experiences and ask any questions here. I'll look forward to any following discussions. --- nowtide wrote: > My reason for joining is related to my wanting to re start my > meditation practice after about a year. > > About 1.5 years ago I had a very intense experience on a Vipassana > retreat. I have done a few but never had anythin that intense > happen before. After that experience I felt myself rejecting > Buddhism and meditation in general. I switched practices and began > focussing on a Jhana practice with some success. > > I am ready to begin doing Vipassana again and am hoping to get some > advice and clarification related to my exoerience, is this an > acceptable forum to discuss such experiences? .... S: I think it might be helpful for you and others to look a little deeper at what is meant by some of the terms you use here (meditation, vipassana, jhana etc) a little more deeply. For example, vipassana (as used in the Buddhist texts) refers to the development of wisdom or insight. Rather than reading about 'vipassana retreats' or 'doing vipassana', we read about developing insight at the present moment by developing awareness and understanding of present dhammas. Meditation practice or bhavana in Pali refers to the development of samatha (calm) and vipassana (insight). Do you think we can talk about meditation at this moment when there are very ordinary experiences now as we read and type? I mention this because I think the practice always has to come back to the present moment, rather than special times with special experiences. What do you say? In any case, please 'hang in' with us here, just read the posts which are meaningful to you initially and follow your own threads as you're doing. Best wishes and metta, Sarah ========= 41432 From: cosmique Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert ----------The all-luminous passage is a curiousity. I think it may occur only twice in the Suttas. And according to Walshe's note, the translation of "luminous" is in question. However, assuming that it is accurate, this is the only indication I am aware of in the Suttas that even suggests or hints at some "continuing state" beyond parinibbana. But I'll admit that it is fodder for that viewpoint. ("Luminous" may also be a way of saying "pure" but I'm speculating.)----------- Dear Dhamma-friends, In his book “Concept & Reality” Bhikkhu Nanananda identifies this luminous state and the above verse about no-fire, no-earth, etc. with arahatta-phala-samadhi. Destruction or cessacion of nama–rupa according to his interpretation is nothing but destruction of concepts of nama-rupa in that state of consciousness. Fire, earth etc. that find no footing means absence of the concepts of fire, earth, etc. in that state of mind. In general, he interprets the deep verses about nibbana (like Udana 80) psychologically rather than metaphysically which can solve a great deal of misunderstandings. With metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41433 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Meditation - Pali terms Hi Htoo (& KK), You posted a comment that 'in one post on the DSG site..one well respected teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not advocate meditation as a part of this path at all!...' ...and your reply, Htoo, was ":-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth'. But smiling and shutting your mouth says a lot already :-). Now I don't think these would be A.Sujin's (or Nina's) words. What you will often hear A.Sujin asking is 'what is meditation?' or 'what do you mean by meditation?' 'Can there be meditation now?' etc. Nina will also start looking at the meaning of the Pali words such as samatha, vipassana, bhavana and so on. Why don't you help us all out by giving more detail and breakdown of all the Pali terms as used in the texts and Abhidammattha Sangaha which you understand to be translated as 'meditation' when you smile and shut your mouth :-) (lots of smiling meditation here, I see - fond memories of smiling conversations;-)) so that we can check whether there is any disagreement or not. Perhaps we can also learn more about what meditation really is, especially at the present moment (which as you'll agree, is of course all there ever is). Thx in advance. Look forward to your clarifications and explanations. Metta, Sarah ====== 41434 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:15am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 b Dear Phil, Nina and all, have'nt been at the computor for what seems like ages due to sore eyes, among other excuses :-) but hopefully new glasses will assist..... so hope I'm not going over old ground here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Nina and all > > > Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black > curtain, > > they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. > When we see, it always > > seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only > visible object > > can impinge on the eyesense. > > It seems unlikely that this will change in the short run (ie a few > lifetimes.) How can it when it is so deeply accumulated? > > Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical > phenomena > > and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them > as > > non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls > away > > immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, > but > > because of saññ?E remembrance of former experiences, we think of > people and > > things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, > > att?Esaññ > > These remembrances and anticipations. They consume me all day, > with only very rare moments when something resembling right > understanding (in theory) returns to subdue them momentarily. And > then they return. > Don't get me wrong. I'm not discouraged. Being able to see the way > this goes on is already a step in the right direction. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: the 'they consume me all day' hit a chord in me, and rather than being discouraged, I was confused. A few events over the past 2 weeks have 'brought out the worst in me' so to speak. Despite thinking 'but I should know better, I'm a student of the Dhamma, why am I being so mean to this person', I continued to be mean to that person. I hated myself for it which did not help, and now the mean feelings have gone and I'm pleasant to that person. I recall thinking during that time, that this is what uncontrollability is all about. Also, I remembered Acharn Sujin saying 'take all names away' and for me that meant that what was left was these unpleasant feelings, dosa, stinginess [oh, and occasionally I was nice to others :-) ], which produced pleasant feelings, kusala or akusala - who knows - only wisdom. And of course, there was lots of seeing, hearing etc in between. My lift to the movies has arrived - more later. Azita. 41435 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: Meditation - Pali terms Dear Htoo,Sarah, all Me too. :-):-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo (& KK), > > You posted a comment that 'in one post on the DSG site..one well respected > teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not > advocate meditation as a part of this path at all!...' > ...and your reply, Htoo, was ":-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth'. > > But smiling and shutting your mouth says a lot already :-). > > Now I don't think these would be A.Sujin's (or Nina's) words. What you > will often hear A.Sujin asking is 'what is meditation?' or 'what do you > mean by meditation?' 'Can there be meditation now?' etc. Nina will also > start looking at the meaning of the Pali words such as samatha, vipassana, > bhavana and so on. > > Why don't you help us all out by giving more detail and breakdown of all > the Pali terms as used in the texts and Abhidammattha Sangaha which you > understand to be translated as 'meditation' when you smile and shut your > mouth :-) (lots of smiling meditation here, I see - fond memories of > smiling conversations;-)) so that we can check whether there is any > disagreement or not. Perhaps we can also learn more about what meditation > really is, especially at the present moment (which as you'll agree, is of > course all there ever is). Thx in advance. > > Look forward to your clarifications and explanations. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 41436 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Robert (and Howard) > > Here's the whole passage translated to English by Walshe.... > > "Where do earth, fire, water, and air no footing find? Where are long and > short, small and great, fair and foul -- Where are name-and-form wholly > destroyed? > > The answer is: > > "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous, > That's where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing, > There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -- There > name-and-form are wholly destroyed. With the cessation of consciousness this is all > destroyed." End Quote > > The all-luminous passage is a curiousity. I think it may occur only twice in > the Suttas. And according to Walshe's note, the translation of "luminous" is > in question. However, assuming that it is accurate, this is the only > indication I am aware of in the Suttas that even suggests or hints at some > "continuing state" beyond parinibbana. But I'll admit that it is fodder for that > viewpoint. ("Luminous" may also be a way of saying "pure" but I'm speculating.) > > With that said, if the quote is examined, it can be seen that twice it says > that -- "name-and-form are WHOLLY DESTROYED." It also says that -- "With the > cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed." > > # 1 If I compare the obscureness of "luminous" with these direct clearly > stated pronouncements...I'll go with the directly stated pronouncements. # 2 I > don't see how a "nama" that is wholly destroyed, can still be considered a > nama. # 3 The vast majority of the Canon that speaks to this issue speaks about > the cessation of name-and-form. > > These are the reasons I base my thinking on. With this said, I wonder what > your reflections are on the matter? > > TG > ++++++++++++++++++ Dear TG, In fact of course yoiu are correct. Although in the suttas one of the name of Nibbana is Vinnanam, that does not mean it is any time of consciousness. It is the same situation as why the abhidhamma classifies it under nama (doesn't in anyway mean it is a type of mentality). After the khandha parinibbana of the arahant there is no more consciousness, no more mentaility, there are only the physcial remains (relics) Robertk 41437 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: Meditation - Pali terms --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo (& KK), You posted a comment that 'in one post on the DSG site..one well respected teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not advocate meditation as a part of this path at all!...' ...and your reply, Htoo, was ":-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just for not to hurt anyone including myself and KK. When I am pouring down water that means 'I am pouring down water'. [Not idiom]. And when other person like KK pours down water that also means pouring down water. But the result of each action will not be the same. Because there are many conditions in performing so and so actions. I have heard from someone 'repeatedly saying the importance of meditating'. I also think out in the same way as you mentioned as A Sujin's and Nina's words. Without proper understanding any action will not be in right order. Sometimes there were challenging invitations. How dare you behave in this way! Come on! Let us compete how long we can sit still right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: But smiling and shutting your mouth says a lot already :-). Now I don't think these would be A.Sujin's (or Nina's) words. What you will often hear A.Sujin asking is 'what is meditation?' or 'what do you mean by meditation?' 'Can there be meditation now?' etc. Nina will also start looking at the meaning of the Pali words such as samatha, vipassana, bhavana and so on. Why don't you help us all out by giving more detail and breakdown of all the Pali terms as used in the texts and Abhidammattha Sangaha which you understand to be translated as 'meditation' when you smile and shut your mouth :-) (lots of smiling meditation here, I see - fond memories of smiling conversations;-)) so that we can check whether there is any disagreement or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I got a message and stored. It is someone's admission that he or she is not proficient in Pali. I am not saying that I am proficient in Pali. I am just a beginner. This is not just self-humiliating remark to show my conceitlessness. I am really a beginner in Pali. As you know all 'Teachings of The Buddha' are in Pali as originality. Up to 6th Buddhists Council all teachings are in Pali. But in the 6th there were 2 sets for each of participant country. One is in Pali and another is in their respective own language. There is little difference in between these 5 countries of Sri Lanka, Thai, Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. They use bilingually. Whenever I saw a message that 'jhana' appear 'such and such times' in Suttas and 'vipassana' does not appear to that extent, I was thinking what he or she was referring to Tipitaka. Actually I think these sort of people are doing research with the aid of computer among translated pure English texts. But in real term or actual term they seem not understand what jhana means, what vipassana means, what bhavana means, what kammatthana means, what kasina means etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Perhaps we can also learn more about what meditation really is, especially at the present moment (which as you'll agree, is of course all there ever is). Thx in advance. Look forward to your clarifications and explanations. Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I had been attacked severely that I was not proficient in English and I had problems with communication and I did not believe that matter I could ask someone who were native speakers like Christine, Robert K etc etc. When essential messages are not rightly extracted it will be futile to set up self-corrected self-adapted Buddhism. I said these because there are many who believe that it is sensible to adapt and change some parts of teaching to accommodate own culture. I do not believe so. In Myanmar Sayadaws teach in three methods regarding theory. One is in pure Pali and the second is in alternative Pali and Myanmar and the third is pure Myanmar. They do not change Pali. But they may change pure Myanmar as languages are always moving and changing. Examples are 'bad words' become 'good words' and 'decent words' become 'bad words'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41438 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup "nowtide" wrote: > > > I have a question related to the dry vs. wet Vipassana debate. > > From those who I have spoken to that have done the dry insight > practice. That is Vipassana without Jhana practice as taught in the > tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. They describe an experience that > sounds a lot like my experience of being in Jhana- actually the > bliss and intensity sounds like it is much deeper than what I feel > when in Jhana. > > My question is: Is this Jhana? Can momentary concentration from > the Mahasi method result in Jhana? > > If it is not Jhana then what exactly are they experiencing given > that their description matches that of Jhana? > > Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Chris, This will depend on how you understand different dhammas in the setting of realities that everyone can prove themselves. Jhana in simple word means 'staying still and unperturbed'. There are different jhanas. Examples 1. When someone has determined to get something with very strong attachment he will be striving to get what he wants and at the time of striving no one will be able to disturb him. When a thief has determined to steal the golden knife of the king, he will try everything possible to get it and when he is approaching to the place where the golden knife is placed, he is well in his lobha jhana. This is because there is a powerful jhanaga. It is called somanassa jhana and somanassa is one of jhananga of 7 jhananga dhammas. 2. When someone has determined to destroyed something for example to destroy a city by atomic bomb, he will try to do so. No one can hinder him and he is unperturbed and still in his dosa or anger. It is because there is a jhanaga called domanassa. When someone is in such state of continuous outburst of anger then he will be in that state for some time as long as conditions permit. He is unperturbed by any good advice or anything and he will still be in his domanassa jhana for some time. 3. When someone is doing good things like offering he will be happy to do so and no one can hinder him not to offer things to his intended person of destination. In such state of mind there are many many cetasikas and cittas happen and they are associated with jhanaga and still this is a state of unperturbable setting and it can be called jhana again. Regarding meditative states there are many different conditions that make the meditators in stillness. Some stillness is really smart and nothing can perturb that state and it can be called jhana. So you questions need specific points to address what is for what etc etc. If jhanas are thought in connection with abhinna then it is obvious and evident that momentary concentration is not such jhana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41439 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James Please look at a sutta in MN known as the noble search where Buddha learnt the jhanas from the two masters. One must go through the material jhanas before entering the immaterial jhanas. I have not seen a sutta quote where one can directly go to the immaterial jhanas without going through the material jhanas. If you come across one, please let me know, because it will good to know such things do happen. Jhanas is right concentration if and only if the first seven are right, which means there must be right understanding first. One cannot enter a jhana (a buddhist jhana) without at least the aloof of sensual pleasure which means there must be right understanding, right sila etc. Jhana without right understanding as a percusor, is the same as the jhanas experience by the brahims at Buddha times. Ken O p.s. please look at other definition of samadhi :-) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html 41440 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (247) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are continuous changing. One being dies here while another being is born there and if these events were seen it would be very shocking [sanvega]. There are many dying people around us. Let us think about a man dying with cancer. He is dying. In his last days there will be many thoughts arise in him. And he may or may not express these thoughts. If he express his thoughts they may indicate whay he had done in the current life. For example a retired professor is dying with cancer. In his last days he is frequently murmuring about his old work. It is a research work and he created disease models in small animals like guinea pigs and mice. He is seeing sufferings of those animals. So he shouted 'it is guinea pigs and not man'. This is the beginning of racing of kamma. At a time he may be thinking his goodness in invention of potent drugs and he will be smiling with the feeling that that is he who could do such work. Thoughts are racing endlessly. But near death one thought wins over other and marana-asanna-javana cittas arise taking respective object and then followed by cuti citta and then dies in the current life and the current life ceases to exist. As there are still many kamma there has ti continue another life as vipaka or result. When kamma are racing, the thoughts may have 'the same feeling as if he is committing the same kamma at the moment of dying'. In some people there arise different objects. For example the objects of associating kamma. If the kamma is paanaatipaata or killing then the being concerned may experience at the time of dying as 1. feeling as if he is committing that killing right now at the time of dying. 2. seeing of weaponry used in that killing, or seeing of beings who were killed. 3. seeing of the same kind of animal, its utrine wall, its surrounding, seeing of great fire etc etc. The number one is kamma. The number 2 indicates kamma-nimitta and the number 3 indicates gati-nimitta. When this happens then marana-asanna-javana cittas arise taking one of these objects and after the 5th marana-asanna-javana if there is no more extra moment there has to arise cuti citta or dying consciousness and after disappearance of that citta, the current life ceases to exist. Cuti citta in that current life and marana-asanna-javana cittas are not the same. Next life patisandhi citta has to arise because of these 5 marana-asanna-javana cittas. Because these 5 javana cittas are kamma generating cittas and because of this kamma there has to arise vipaka citta called patisandhi citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41441 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:09am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Tep Right concentration is not just concentration along. If it is concentration alone, a number of brahims will have been enlighted even before Buddha. It is only through wisdom that one is liberated. If concentration produces wisdom then those brahims will again as I said have been liberated as they attain the material and immaterial jhanas. Ken O 41442 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Howard Kamma is neuter, its good and bad depends on the roots that condition it. If kamma determines our future direction of the mind, then it will be kamma conditioning the arisen of wisdom or ignorance. If that is true, then kamma will determine our future good and bad action. That is Budda refuted as false view. It is not kamma that determines the direction of the mind, it is the roots that determine our direction of the mind. Ken O 41443 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:25am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon and Howard, >... Lodewijk said that some people are naturally inclined to some quiet time in >the morning, or they want time to think quietly. Like I try to listen early >morning to MP3. I need this as a reminder, otherwise I forget to relate >Dhamma to the present moment. But also in daily life itself, reading the >news, we receive reminders. My father says, he is losing his identity, and >this is a reminder: we all do, each split second. And he is old gae >personified. >And you listen while walking. Everybody has his own conditions. > > Yes, I listen to dhamma talks while walking, but of course that does not preclude wrong view coming into the picture (and it does!). And I think setting aside a time of day for a 'practice' of some kind, even a simple reflective kind of practice, is likely to be motivated by attachment to results and wrong view. But only the person him/her self can know to what extent wrong view is involved. I'm inclined to think that wrong view is present at a 'sub-conscious' level much of the time, meaning that it is arising and influencing our thinking but not arising so frequently or strongly as to be apparent to our (weak) awareness or understanding. Jon 41444 From: Waters Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: jhanas Can you explain what you mean by dry vs. wet vipassana? I've never heard of vipassana being referred to as those terms. Regarding to your question, I think it takes a whole lot of practice to attain the first jhana, lifetimes even. Of course there are in rare cases like Gautama who reached the first jhana (If i'm not mistaken) at the age of 7. I also think that you should not dwell so much in the fact whether you have attained a certain jhana for that might lead to craving and attachment. :) []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nowtide" wrote: > > > My question is related to the dry vs. wet Vipassana debate. > > From those who I have spoken to that have done the dry insight > practice. That is Vipassana without Jhana practice as taught in the > tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. They describe an experience that > sounds a lot like my experience of being in Jhana- actually the > bliss and intensity sounds like it is much deeper than what I feel > when in Jhana. > > My question is: Is this Jhana? Can momentary concentration from > the Mahasi method result in Jhana? > > If it is not Jhana then what exactly are they experiencing given > that their description matches that of Jhana? > > Chris 41445 From: Waters Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:25am Subject: Hi! Greetings all Dhamma Friends, My name is Maya. I was born in Indonesia, but is currently living however I now reside in the US. I have been practicing vipassana for 4 years. Now, I am interested in learning more satipatthana, the Vipassana technique taught by Mahasi, and also the abhidhamma. :) []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 41446 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/29/05 7:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Tep > > Right concentration is not just concentration along. If it is > concentration alone, a number of brahims will have been enlighted > even before Buddha. It is only through wisdom that one is liberated. > If concentration produces wisdom then those brahims will again as I > said have been liberated as they attain the material and immaterial > jhanas. > > > > Ken O > ========================== The Buddha defined right concentration as the first 4 jhanas. Right concentration is one out of eight as regards the 8-fold path. It *is* a requisite condition for liberation. It cannot be dispensed with. It is not, however, a *sufficient* condition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41447 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by > >>‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, >>too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) >> >> >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Perhaps not. 'Recommend' is definitely what I mean. The Buddha put >forward a variety of conventional practices as useful and conducing to the good. >-------------------------------------- > > Yes, I know this is your contention about the teachings in general, but I think you would now agree that this sutta is not an example of the putting forward of such conventional practices. I say this not to prove any point but to pose the question why suttas often turn out to be saying something quite different from what we first took them to be saying. >>But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train >>oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We >>shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a >>straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for) >> >> >-------------------------------------- >Howard: > I agree completely that the Buddha was not simply advising "Just say >no!" or "Just don't do it!" The conventional practices recommended by the >Buddha - and I agree that there was some variation in them, tailored to individual needs - were many, complex, and often quite subtle. >--------------------------------------- > > But again, no such 'conventional practices' are actually recommended in this sutta (contrary to what you might have thought at the outset). >>which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to >>break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being >>recommended here? >> >> >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as >best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from akusala >as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging kusala >as possible. >--------------------------------------- > > But none of these are things mentioned in this sutta. It's interesting how, when one looks closely and carefully at what is said in the suttas, what we take at first sight to be an instruction to do conventional actions turns out to be neither an instruction nor a reference to conventional actions. This just bears out what we know already, that we are inclined to read suttas as supporting our own particular viewpoint. I think I've been very fortunate in having much of my own misreadings brought to my attentoin over the years. Jon 41448 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/29/05 7:21:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Kamma is neuter, its good and bad depends on the roots that condition > it. > --------------------------------------- Howard: That is analogous to saying that consciousness is neutral - that its being eye consciousness or ear consciousness etc depends on the conditioning sense door, with the implication that all consciousness is just consciousness. Not all consciousness is the same. Likewise not all kamma is the same. Ignorance conditions cetana (kamma), and the manner in which it is conditioned effects the nature of that cetana, and that in turn effects its consequences. If two dhammas are differently conditioned, it is not the case that the dhammas are the same but their conditioning "roots" different - the dhammas are then different as well. ------------------------------------------- If kamma determines our future direction of the mind, then it> > will be kamma conditioning the arisen of wisdom or ignorance. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Ignorance conditions kamma, and through that, all else. But recall that D.O. is a cyclic, not linear. The conditioninbg is manifold and complex. ----------------------------------------- If> > that is true, then kamma will determine our future good and bad > action. That is Budda refuted as false view. > --------------------------------------- Howard: What is false view is that ones past kamma *determines* current and future kamma. But it certainly conditions it. The point is that there are other factors at work as well, else that is past-action determinism in effect. Our being born as humans involves a host of conditions that affect our current volitions. That human birth was kamma vipaka. Thus, the prior kamma that led to this human birth was a distant condition affecting our current kamma. It is false that our current intentions, volitions, and actions are independent of prior intentions, volitions, and actions. There clearly is a dependency. What there is *not* is a deterministic, sole dependency. Conditionality is complex and multifaceted. ------------------------------------------------- It is not kamma that> > determines the direction of the mind, it is the roots that determine > our direction of the mind. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's like saying that it is not Saddam Hussein who tortured people, but his parents who gave birth to him. If marble A hits marble B, knocking it into marble C, it does not become false that marble B hot marble C. (Imagine if there is a line of colliding marbles with no beginning! Then your argument would conclude that there are no collisions at all.) ------------------------------------------------ > > Ken O > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41449 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry Larry wrote: >One little knot I found in my own logic is where I was talking about >two kinds of result of an intention, the kamma result sometime in the >future and the result of the action more or less in the present. That >result of an action is actually a kamma result of a past intention, >not the intention that initiated the action. If you think about it >this is extremely counter intuitive: the cup of tea that I supposedly >made I did not really make, rather, the cup of tea is the result of >an unknown intention that arose possibly in a former life. I don't >know what to say about this except that it points out the impractical >nature of the kamma theory. Any ideas? > > Well I'd certainly agree that much that we come across in the teachings is counter-intuitive, and in my own case that has usually indicated the presence of wrong view of one kind or another. Let's face it, knowing even the little we have come to know so far, it's obvious that our intuition is a most unreliable guide! Regarding your example of the cup of tea, we need to keep in mind that it is *experiencing through the sense-doors* that is the result of the former intention, for example, the seeing of visible object, tasting of taste, experiencing of heat, softness, etc. through the body-sense. So the cup of tea itself can never be the *result* of previous intention. I don't know if this makes the kamma theory any less 'impractical'? Jon 41450 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - Please forgive me. At this point it's been quite a while since this thread was initiated. I'm not certain which of the suttas you are asking about. I think you are pointing to #4? In any case, I no longer have the reference. Would you please provide the sutta to me. I'll look it it over to decide whether I think it - that particular sutta, taken as it is, without reading anything extrinsic into it - recommends conventional actions to be taken, and I'll report back to you. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/29/05 9:14:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by > > > >>‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, > >>too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) > >> > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Perhaps not. 'Recommend' is definitely what I mean. The Buddha put > >forward a variety of conventional practices as useful and conducing to the > good. > >-------------------------------------- > > > > > > Yes, I know this is your contention about the teachings in general, but > I think you would now agree that this sutta is not an example of the > putting forward of such conventional practices. I say this not to prove > any point but to pose the question why suttas often turn out to be > saying something quite different from what we first took them to be saying. > > >>But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train > >>oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We > >>shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a > >>straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for) > >> > >> > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I agree completely that the Buddha was not simply advising "Just say > >no!" or "Just don't do it!" The conventional practices recommended by the > >Buddha - and I agree that there was some variation in them, tailored to > individual needs - were many, complex, and often quite subtle. > >--------------------------------------- > > > > > > But again, no such 'conventional practices' are actually recommended in > this sutta (contrary to what you might have thought at the outset). > > >>which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to > >>break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being > >>recommended here? > >> > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as > >best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from > akusala > >as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging > kusala > >as possible. > >--------------------------------------- > > > > > > But none of these are things mentioned in this sutta. > > It's interesting how, when one looks closely and carefully at what is > said in the suttas, what we take at first sight to be an instruction to > do conventional actions turns out to be neither an instruction nor a > reference to conventional actions. This just bears out what we know > already, that we are inclined to read suttas as supporting our own > particular viewpoint. I think I've been very fortunate in having much > of my own misreadings brought to my attentoin over the years. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41451 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' Hi, Nina (and Larry and Phil) Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon, I had to laugh about moving the furniture with kusala citta, bumping >on a toe etc. >I like your examples of spontaneous kusala, and these are exactly what Larry >does, I have noticed. Especially c and d I noticed. He helped someone who >was in trouble and I appreciated this. He gave the link to Soma Thera, he >types Visuddhimagga himself considering this as bhavana. So this helps with >1 also, while he is working. > > Yes, I've noticed this also (and I tried to chose examples that Larry would find easy to relate to). I also liked Phil's comment recently of how we may overlook the everyday kusala in our desire to have more samatha or vipassana. Samatha especially can only be developed by learning more about the nature of the moments of kusala that occur naturally in our life now. >J: In very general terms, I was saying that kusala can, and does at times, > > >>arise without our intending it to do so. Have you ever (a) found >>yourself pondering over dhamma issues as you go about your daily >>routine, or (b) refrained from an adverse comment to someone because the >>thought popped into your mind that it just isn¹t necessary to say that, >>or (c) offered a friendly or reassuring comment to someone who appears >>to be uncomfortable or upset, or (d) on the spur of the moment offered >>your time or expertise to someone for their benefit? These are all >>instances of kusala arising without any sense of it being part of a >>Œpractice¹ or something to be made to occur. >> >> > >N: Good examples for daily life, appreciating the value of kusala. >I am thinking of Joop who likes the social aspect of Dhamma. I discussed >with Lodewijk that by knowing that we all are citta, cetasika and rupa, >arising because of conditions, our attitude to others changes. We become >more tolerant, although at times we fail. We at least see the value of >thinking less of self and more of others. > > I think this is quite so, and is very encouraging to notice in oneself (by reflecting on changes that have occurred over a period of time). > N: concentration skills: this should be together with pañña. When the > Buddha > >speaks about concentration this is always implied. It is different from >before the Buddha's time. >Jhana is not for everybody, we have to study the Visuddhimagga, lest we take >for jhana what is not truly jhana. > > Yes, and also because, although jhana is not for everyone, samatha does occur naturally in daily life just like other forms of kusala, and it is useful to know more about this at an intellectual level first. Thanks for the reminders. Jon 41452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >The mind stores memories as "potential concepts." (The concepts are >potential, but the memories are real impressions.) These "potential concepts" arise >as a cognitive event (arisen concepts) when the mind pays attention to them >(the memory impressions) and such contact is established. Just as a "potential >visual object" (that is not currently being seen) becomes an "arisen visual >object" when the mind pays attention to it and such contact is established. > >There's no difference. They are both formed and experienced as forces and >conditions. Just as a "mountain" (as an example) is altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly; so too are memories altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly. > > I'm sure this is a reasonably tenable position to take. But since your position is I assume more in the nature of an educated guess (although of course a well-educated one ;-)) than something verified by direct experience, I'm puzzled by the strength of your conviction that the 'abhidhamma' position is wrong. I'm wondering if the answer could lie in some deeply entrenched view you hold that clashes with the abhidhamma in some respect. There are for everyone such views that are not apparent but that nevertheless pervade the conscious thinking/reasoning. Just a thought. >One might think that concepts disappear and make no lasting impression. But >I still have Sarah's "purple elephant" in my head. ;-) The techologies that >are at our "beck and call" could not have arisen without concepts. That's a >lot of "lasting" impact. > > I think you explained before how the concept of "purple elephant" was first formed by the mind from 'separate' memories of (a) purple and (b) elephant. It's not clear to me how that concept could have any previous existence, presence or whatever you want to call it, whether as a 'cognitive event' or however, before the moment of its original conception by the mind. Jon 41453 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard Thanks for adding your comments to this thread. upasaka@a... wrote: > I don't see this matter at all as you do, Jon. The way you describe >concepts here is almost *exactly* the way I would describe paramattha dhammas. >(That is: Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they >are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' >outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object.) And I do not >accord even this degree of reality to concepts! > > We've probably been over this ground before ;-)), but what is the basis for the assertion that objects of consciousness are created at the very moment of consciousness, and have no 'existence' outside that moment? (Of course, I understand the position you take as a matter of principle that nothing outside the immediate moment of consciousness can be verified by direct experience, but that does nothing to support an assertion such as the one you make here). Jon 41454 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon (and TG) - In a message dated 1/29/05 10:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > think you explained before how the concept of "purple elephant" was > first formed by the mind from 'separate' memories of (a) purple and (b) > elephant. It's not clear to me how that concept could have any previous > existence, presence or whatever you want to call it, whether as a > 'cognitive event' or however, before the moment of its original > conception by the mind. > ====================== Jon, I'm really confused by your position. You seem to be saying that a concept exists at the moment of its mental conception, but that it has no prior existence. So what? That is precisely the case for any citta as well, is it not? All of a sudden I seem to be seeing you as taking concepts to be actual momentary phenomena. Am I misunderstanding you? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41455 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/29/05 10:14:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > We've probably been over this ground before ;-)), but what is the basis > for the assertion that objects of consciousness are created at the very > moment of consciousness, and have no 'existence' outside that moment? > (Of course, I understand the position you take as a matter of principle > that nothing outside the immediate moment of consciousness can be > verified by direct experience, but that does nothing to support an > assertion such as the one you make here). > ===================== Well, the point is that of course there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of experience, but they are, in principle, unexperienced - being outside of experience. We can hypothesize such, but if they do exist, we can never know it. I see the Bahiya Sutta and especially the Sabba Sutta as making exactly this point. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41456 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:44am Subject: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Kel - In your message # 40384 I have learned a number of useful things about indriya, concentration, sama-samadhi, object of lokuttara citta, and viriya that is associated with lobha (trying too hard). At the end of the post the 'bojjhanga' is briefly mentioned as follows. Kel : You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced. T: Since balancing the 5 indriyas to achieve the "bojjhanga quality" is very important, could you please elaborate the above comment further? I truly appreciate the clear answers you gave in #43084. Kindest regards, Tep ============== 41457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:11am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: sotapanna ---------- Van: Nina van Gorkom Datum: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:44:14 +0100 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: sotapanna Dear Yong Peng, op 28-01-2005 11:50 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: Nina, I have an additional question. What does the Tipitaka say about the realisation of a sotapanna? N: Samyutta Nikaya, Mahaavagga, Book XI , Sotaapatti Samyutta. Many suttas about this subject. For example the first one: Raajah, about four dhammas the sotaapanna is endowed with: unshakable confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and as the fourth:'He is possessed of the virtues loved by the ariyans, virtues unbroken... which lead to concentration of the mind.' The sotaapanna is described as having the dustless eye of Dhamma, or dwelling with generosity. He has no stinginess at all. Although he has not eradicated all defilements, he has eradicated wrong view, stinginess, jealousy. He has no conditions to transgress the five precepts and cannot commit kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. Thus, sense desire and aversion are not as gross as in the case of the non-ariyan. He will have at most seven more rebirths. Y.P.: How and when does a person know he has become a sotapanna? N: He must develop the right cause leading to this stage of enlightenment. This is a long learning process. He must develop all stages of insight. He should have friendship with the wise, listen to the Dhamma and consider it wisely. Then intellectual understanding of mental phenomena, naama, and material phenomena, ruupa, can grow, and this is pariyatti. Just as the Buddha explained to Raahula that he should realize the truth of the five khandhas, ruupakkhandha and the four naamakkhandhas. Intellectual understanding, pariyatti, is the foundation of patipatti, the practice, vipassanaa, which is awareness and direct understanding of naama and ruupa. Rahula had to be mindful of visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, of all objects appearing through the six doors, one at a time. Thus he could realize that they were truly impermanent and non-self. Patipatti will lead to the realization of the truth, pativedha, and this occurs at the moment of enlightenment. The sotaapanna has not eradicated desire, aversion and ignorance but he truly understands that dhammas arise because of their appropriate conditions and are non-self. When desire or anger arises he can face them with understanding, he knows that they are mere impersonal elements. No matter whether he is praised or blamed, he knows that his life is only conditioned namas and rupas. He knows that daily life is the test for one's understanding. When a person develops the right conditions to become a sotaapanna, he goes through all the stages of vipassanaa, beginning with precise understanding of the difference between the characteristic of naama and of ruupa, he penetrates more and more the true nature of conditioned dhammas, and he gradually sees the disadvantages of them. When he attains enlightenment he experiences nibbaana, the unconditioned element (asa"nkhataa dhaatu) for the first time. He has no doubt about that. At that moment there is lokuttara paññaa. However, people may delude themselves and believe that they have reached stages of insight or even attained enlightenment. Even in between the stages of insight there are the upakilesa of vipassana: one clings to the calm or assurance due to vipassana and one does not continue to develop understanding. It is most important to realize when there is clinging to the goal. If one realizes that whatever arises is due to conditions it can help one to continue with the right Path. It does not matter what arises, calm or clinging, they are only conditioned dhammas. This leads to detachment. When many akusala cittas arise in a day, there is no need to become disheartened, they are all conditioned dhammas and can be understood as such. Nina. 41458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Pilgrimage India 2 b Hello Phil, thanks for your feed back. op 29-01-2005 00:52 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black > curtain...., ... > It seems unlikely that this will change in the short run (ie a few > lifetimes.) How can it when it is so deeply accumulated? And there is > our cultural environment that only makes it more difficult. N: I think above all our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. The real cause is not the environment, although it has influence. Ph: The truth > that in the absolute sense there are no people is basic Dhamma that > can be learned from one's first brush with the Khandas, but there is > such resistance to it. We have to live in the world and deal with the > world's values (most of us) and this will be far more likely to > darken the curtain. N: Social life is a point Lodewijk stresses very much: it is the Dhamma that helps us in our social life. We have to become an understanding person, Kh Sujin says. We learn to understand also others' accumulated tendencies, how they behave they do. More tolerance, more matte and compassion if understanding is developed. Understanding nama and rupa is eventually the condition for less defilements. Also in our dealings with our fellowmen. Ph: snipped.... quotes: We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but >> when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of > Dhamma, >> the island of satipatthåna.>> ³Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto >> yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your > island, >> the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... > Ph: I must admit that this is one of the teachings that I never > quite "get." .... There is no > refuge except right understanding of realities, and that doesn't > happen because the Buddha tells us to do it. We can be heedful > because the Buddha tells us to do it, if the conditions are right. N:< There is no refuge except right understanding of realities>, that is right, satipatthana. Even if we are only beginners. Ph: . There is not yet anything a true refuge from the subtle > suffering caused by feeding on thoughts of past and future, even if I > say that I have taken refuge in the Buddha's teaching. N: But you learnt already, it is different from the time you had not heard about the Dhamma. Is this not a refuge? Nina. 41459 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 7:46:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Well, the point is that of course there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of experience, but they are, in principle, unexperienced - being outside of experience. We can hypothesize such, but if they do exist, we can never know it. I see the Bahiya Sutta and especially the Sabba Sutta as making exactly this point. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I understand but it seems to me you are unnecessarily putting "blinders" on. For example. Lets say you hear crash while your in a room. You go outside and see a car "wrapped" around a tree. Do you feel only able to hypothesize that the car ran into the tree. I understand that in an ultimate sense that is what is happen. But any practical sense would allow a person to "have knowledge" that the tree was hit by a moving car. Do we make ourselves unnecessarily stupid by asserting that such a conclusion is beyond our knowledge? If you feel that such an assertion is really beyond our knowledge, I want you as my lawyer if I'm ever on trial. ;-) Seriously though...isn't the knowledge of impermanence partly "hypothetical." (I would call it inferential.) Besides just "feeling" things as impermanent, don't we need to draw conclusions about the impermanence as an underlying factor of all formations. That death is imminent. Isn't the knowledge of suffering a "hypothetical formulation" to some degree, especially at times when one is experiencing pleasure? I don't think we can rule out the importance of inferential knowledge and I certainly don't think the Buddha did. The Buddha often made statements based on principles (not direct experience because sometimes he was talking about the future) and used those to teach people...to inculcate impermanence, suffering, and no-self perspectives. It seems to me from some posts I've seen that a "pure" phenomenological point of view is unnecessarily limiting useful perspectives in seeing the things we need to see in order to overcome suffering. I think its important to know what is really happening. But I think we also need to allow for the reasonable certainty of knowledge that can be well founded and varafiable by other means, as being considered knowledge and useful. How can direct experience allow you, while living, to make any reasonable conclusions about death? It can only be hypothesized. And I think that kind of hypothesis is crucial to attaining success in the Buddha's teaching. TG 41460 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/29/05 2:30:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I understand but it seems to me you are unnecessarily putting "blinders" on. > > For example. Lets say you hear crash while your in a room. You go outside > and see a car "wrapped" around a tree. Do you feel only able to hypothesize > > that the car ran into the tree. I understand that in an ultimate sense that > is > what is happen. But any practical sense would allow a person to "have > knowledge" that the tree was hit by a moving car. Do we make ourselves > unnecessarily > stupid by asserting that such a conclusion is beyond our knowledge? ------------------------------------- Howard: Of course I would conclude the same as you that "The car ran into the tree." I don't think we mean exactly the same thing by that, but this is just too complex a mess of stuff ot get into. ------------------------------------- > If you > feel that such an assertion is really beyond our knowledge, I want you as my > > lawyer if I'm ever on trial. ;-) > -------------------------------------- Howard: It's my son who's the lawyer. I'm just a retired academic. ------------------------------------- > > Seriously though...isn't the knowledge of impermanence partly > "hypothetical." > (I would call it inferential.) > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, partly but not completely. I don't mind inference - in fact I depend on it. But when something is *in principle* unverifiable, I pragmatically dismiss it. ------------------------------------- Besides just "feeling" things as > > impermanent, don't we need to draw conclusions about the impermanence as an > underlying > factor of all formations. That death is imminent. Isn't the knowledge of > suffering a "hypothetical formulation" to some degree, especially at times > when one > is experiencing pleasure? > > I don't think we can rule out the importance of inferential knowledge and I > certainly don't think the Buddha did. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Neither do I, nor the importance of intellect. The internet is not a paramattha dhamma!! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- The Buddha often made statements based > > on principles (not direct experience because sometimes he was talking about > the > future) and used those to teach people...to inculcate impermanence, > suffering, and no-self perspectives. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: But direct knowing was the bottom line. (See the Kalama Sutta re distrust of reason.) ---------------------------------------- > > It seems to me from some posts I've seen that a "pure" phenomenological > point > of view is unnecessarily limiting useful perspectives in seeing the things > we > need to see in order to overcome suffering. I think its important to know > what is really happening. But I think we also need to allow for the > reasonable > certainty of knowledge that can be well founded and varafiable by other > means, > as being considered knowledge and useful. > > How can direct experience allow you, while living, to make any reasonable > conclusions about death? It can only be hypothesized. And I think that > kind of > hypothesis is crucial to attaining success in the Buddha's teaching. > > TG > > ========================= The bottom line is that I depend on reason just as you. For all but possibly arahants it is needed for full understanding of what is what. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41461 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Jon In a message dated 1/29/2005 7:01:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: TGrand458@a... wrote: >The mind stores memories as "potential concepts." (The concepts are >potential, but the memories are real impressions.) These "potential concepts" arise >as a cognitive event (arisen concepts) when the mind pays attention to them >(the memory impressions) and such contact is established. Just as a "potential >visual object" (that is not currently being seen) becomes an "arisen visual >object" when the mind pays attention to it and such contact is established. > >There's no difference. They are both formed and experienced as forces and >conditions. Just as a "mountain" (as an example) is altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly; so too are memories altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly. > > I'm sure this is a reasonably tenable position to take. But since your position is I assume more in the nature of an educated guess (although of course a well-educated one ;-)) than something verified by direct experience, I'm puzzled by the strength of your conviction that the 'abhidhamma' position is wrong. I'm wondering if the answer could lie in some deeply entrenched view you hold that clashes with the abhidhamma in some respect. There are for everyone such views that are not apparent but that nevertheless pervade the conscious thinking/reasoning. Just a thought. As far as the 7 Abhidhamma texts are concerned, I don't have any problem with them that I can remember. Haven't read them all the way cover to cover other than the Vibhanga. However, the way that the abhidhamma approaches the subject matter has a liability to lead to interpreting states as being "more substantial" than I think is beneficial. But I really don't think an anti-abhidhamma bias has any bearing on what I state above. It is the way I understand and see conditional principles working that leads to the type of conclusions formed above. I am a hard core D.O. person. Everything that arises in bound to conditions. I don't believe something can arise that is non-existent. I don't even believe in conventional or absolute truths. Its true or it isn't...period. >One might think that concepts disappear and make no lasting impression. But >I still have Sarah's "purple elephant" in my head. ;-) The techologies that >are at our "beck and call" could not have arisen without concepts. That's a >lot of "lasting" impact. > > I think you explained before how the concept of "purple elephant" was first formed by the mind from 'separate' memories of (a) purple and (b) elephant. It's not clear to me how that concept could have any previous existence, presence or whatever you want to call it, whether as a 'cognitive event' or however, before the moment of its original conception by the mind. Its a condition Jon. Just as a mountain is a condition for downhill skiing. The things we have learned in the past, are memories that are "tapped into" when the appropriate conditions arise. The mountain doesn't "just appear" when someone skies on it...its a "potential ski slope" Memories are "potential concepts" when the conditions arise that activate them. As such conditions arise, the memories are slightly altered according to the new impacting conditions. Just like the mountain will be slightly altered due to the contact of the skier. For example...now when I think of "purple elephant," I'll have the condition of Sarah's comment and this post as new conditions that will modify that memory. The next time I hear purple elephant, it might make my mind associate it with thoughts of Sarah and Jon; whereas it would have never done that befiore. If I was totally unfamiliar with the word and concept of "purple," and totally unfamiliar with the word and concept "elephant," my mind would have registered a big "blank" when I read purple elephant. But because I had learned those terms in the past and they were memories, I was able to "conceptualize" what Sarah said. Otherwise, no concept would have arisen. At least none that were appropriately associated with purple elephant. Jon TG 41462 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 11:52:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: The bottom line is that I depend on reason just as you. For all but possibly arahants it is needed for full understanding of what is what. With metta, Howard I feel much better now and agree with all you said. :-) TG 41463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India 2 b Dear Azita, such things can happen, it is natural. We should not mind whatever appears, it has appeared already. Kusala, akusala, pleasant, unpleasant, happy feelings, unhappy feelings. There are conditions for all of them. If we do not mind what appears there are conditions for awareness. We do not select any object, we are not choosy. Nina. op 29-01-2005 09:15 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > A few events over the past > 2 weeks have 'brought out the worst in me' so to speak. Despite > thinking 'but I should know better, I'm a student of the Dhamma, why > am I being so mean to this person', I continued to be mean to that > person. I hated myself for it which did not help, and now the mean > feelings have gone and I'm pleasant to that person. 41464 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. and Kel - The unfinished discussion between you two is very interesting to me. The concept of 'no self' seems to be intertwined with goal/direction/time and several other things like ultimate truth (paramattha) and conventional truth (vohara sacca). Please allow me to get involved in the discussion, O.K.? ------------------------ KH: > > there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be willed to arise > > Kel: > There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be predestined. KH: Fair enough, but let's not sidestep anatta by seeing the equivalent of a self in cetana: it is just a conditioned dhamma. --------------- KH: > > but the teaching is to know the present reality. It is not to have concern for the future. > > Kel:> Because knowing the present moment leads to no attachment of a particular future. Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything? KH: Good question! Why do anything when there is no self to reap the rewards? The Dhamma is not about doing anything: it is about understanding the present moment. The present moment is all that exists, so it is all there is to understand. ----------------------- T: Right now, at this cross-section in time, there exist Ken H., Kel and other 'beings'. If Ken does not exist, why does he care to practice the Dhamma in order to understand the 'sabba dhamma' in the present moment? If Ken is not concerned with the eradication of cravings (so that he may be free from the samsara in the future: the hidden goal of his practice), then why is he trying to practice the Dhamma right now? Yes, it is a Truth that states 'sabba dhamma anatta'. And without the real penetration of this Truth, there will be no hope for release(vimutti) in the future. Therefore, Kel was not wrong in saying, "Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything?". I think Kel is using the 'goal' as a conventional truth. Remeber the Bodhisatta's goal to become a Buddha? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Kel, > > We agreed that conceit could not help us to practise satipatthana. > Nor can any other akusala mental activity. That's why I can't see > deliberate practices as having any effectiveness. Moreover, as Sukin > points out, belief in a deliberate practice reinforces wrong view - > it denies the laws of conditionality. > > ----------------------------- > > Kel: > No but understanding the convential truth is what leads to > higher understanding of the absolute truth. As an example, one of > my teachers keep telling us to observe the mind. He said once it's > really pure, all the associated intense vedana will fall away. I > thought my mind looks pure, and repeated observation wasn't doing > anything to vedana. > > ------------------------------ > > I don't necessarily disagree with what you say here. Sati and panna > can observe the mind, but there is no deliberate (conventionally > real) practice by which we can make it happen. Citta is too fast. > (snipped) ------------- > KH: > > You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question [of > anatta]' but we > > > Kel: You can give a river a name and it exists. There's a > definite path it takes. But ask if it's the SAME river then the > answer is no as its always in a flux. If a snapshot can be taken in > time and space of the river and ask if it exists then it most > certainly does. > -------------- > > If, by 'snapshot of the river' you are alluding to the presently > arising five khandhas, then I concede you are not sidestepping the > question. :-) If, however, you mean a [still] image of a living > being - with arms, legs, eyes and ears - then, no, that would not be > the reality taught by the Buddha. There is no being with the power > to touch, see and hear. > > --------------------------------- > KH: > > there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be > willed to arise > > > > Kel: > There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to > change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be > predestined. > ------------------------------------ (snipped). > > ------------- > KH: > > Putting off will never condition > > satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. > > > > Kel: >The point is when akusala is at full power, it's like trying > to stop a moving train. You'll just crushed instead. You need to > stop it in the beginning when the momentum is low or before it even > starts. A proper practice will prevent it from gaining full power. > Once it's there, only time will dissipate it. > > ------------- > (snipped) > Regards, > Ken H 41465 From: nowtide Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: jhanas Wet Vipassana is Vipassana that employs te use of Jhana (Bhante Gunaratana, Buddhadasa Bikkhu) Dry Vipassana is Vipassana that does not use Jhana (ie Mahasi style Vipassana, Goenka, Ajahn Tong). I am not so much concerned with reaching Jhana, and in fact have done so under the guidance of a teacher on retreat and during my own home practice- I must not have asked my question properly. Let me try again: The reason I ask if one can reach Jhana through "dry Vipassana" is because the main critique of the Mahasi method id that it does not use Jhana and therefore misses Samma Samadhi of the 8 fold path. So my question is a more theoreticla one, and I ask it in an attempt to better understand this debate between the two groups. From my own experience with Jhana and in talking with practitiones of Mahasi Vipassana I find that they experience something identical to my experience with Jhana. If those practicing Mahasi style Vipassana do in fact reach Jhana as part of the practice then that would change the debate entirely, and perhaps even resolve it. 41466 From: Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions I don't think the buddha forbids us to make hypothesis or inferences. I think he encourages us to rationalize what we see, hear, or read...or else he wouldn't have told the Kalamas in the Kalama Sutta "not to believe in everything one see, hear, or reads." It is only through experience that one can only believe if something is worthwhile, but again, one must see if it is beneficial to others and ourselves....only then can we accept. I think the Buddha allows us to make hypothesis, inferences, and associations, just as long as we're not attached to these ideas/concept that we fall into the wrong view. []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions > I don't think we can rule out the importance of inferential knowledge and I > certainly don't think the Buddha did. The Buddha often made statements based > on principles (not direct experience because sometimes he was talking about the > future) and used those to teach people...to inculcate impermanence, > suffering, and no-self perspectives. > > It seems to me from some posts I've seen that a "pure" phenomenological point > of view is unnecessarily limiting useful perspectives in seeing the things we > need to see in order to overcome suffering. I think its important to know > what is really happening. But I think we also need to allow for the reasonable > certainty of knowledge that can be well founded and varafiable by other means, > as being considered knowledge and useful. > > How can direct experience allow you, while living, to make any reasonable > conclusions about death? It can only be hypothesized. And I think that kind of > hypothesis is crucial to attaining success in the Buddha's teaching. 41467 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:06:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Dear Dhamma-friends, In his book “Concept & Realityâ€? Bhikkhu Nanananda identifies this luminous state and the above verse about no-fire, no-earth, etc. with arahatta-phala-samadhi. Destruction or cessacion of nama–rupa according to his interpretation is nothing but destruction of concepts of nama-rupa in that state of consciousness. Fire, earth etc. that find no footing means absence of the concepts of fire, earth, etc. in that state of mind. In general, he interprets the deep verses about nibbana (like Udana 80) psychologically rather than metaphysically which can solve a great deal of misunderstandings. With metta, Cosmique Hi Cosmique Nibbana with residue is a temporary cessation of nama. It is not Wholly Destroyed. Also, no need to speak of rupa being destroyed in that case because the lack of concepts, without Nama, is obvious. Another translation translates...paraphrasing... that -- "Name and form" cease without remainder. Both "wholly destroyed" and "cease without remainder" indicate parinibbana. I don't know if he is solving misunderstandings or generating them. But there seems to be two solid reasons for not agreeing with his interpretation. His interpretation requires considerable "creative license" in order to hold water. Perhaps his thinking is "too mentality oriented" or perhaps I'm dead wrong. The way I see...the Four Great Elements find no footing because there is no craving to hold them together. Name and form are wholly destroyed because they are destroyed. But as far as the word "luminous" goes in this context, I don't have a basis for understanding it. TG 41468 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (247) Dear Htoo, Thank you for this. It has become very clear for me - these dying moments. Anumodana for your sharing of your knowledge. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are continuous changing. One being dies here while another > being is born there and if these events were seen it would be very > shocking [sanvega]. There are many dying people around us. ....snip..... > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. 41469 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, I'm going to paste some of Ledi sayadaw's words. I can also give some illustration from experience of how to balance them if that's what you were asking. > T: Since balancing the 5 indriyas to achieve the "bojjhanga quality" is > very important, could you please elaborate the above comment > further? This is from http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6f.htm, discussing the bala nature of the indriyas. If any one of these five bala is weak and unable to dispel the respective patipakkha dhamma,[116] work in samatha and vipassanana cannot be very successful as far as neyya individuals are concerned. ** neyya are the people who must practice to achieve enlightenment Hence, at the present day, some persons can emerge out of the realm of tanha because of their strength in saddha-bala. They are rid of the attachments to paccaya amisa and worldly dignities and honours. But since they are deficient in the other four bala, they are unable to rise above the stage of santutthi (state of being contented). Some persons can emerge out of the realm of tanha and kosajja because they are strong in saddha-bala and viriya-bala. They are constant in the observance of the santosa dhamma[117] in residence among hills and forests, and in the practice of the dhutanga (ascetic practices). But because they are weak in the other three bala, they are unable to practise kayagata-sati, or do the work of samatha and vipassana. Some persons are strong in the first three bala and thus can rise up to the work of kayagata-sati. They achieve concentration in out- breath, or in the bones of the body. But since they are deficient in the other two bala, they cannot rise up to the work of the jhana and vipassana. Some persons can rise up to the attainment of jhana samapatti because they are strong in the first four bala, but since they are weak in panna-bala, they cannot rise up to the work of vipassana. Some persons are strong in panna-bala. They are learned in the Dhamma and the Pitakas. They are wise in the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities). But because the back is broken in the four other bala, they cannot emerge from the realm of tanha, kosajja, mutthasacca and vikkhepa. They live and die within the confines of these akusala. In this way, whenever one is deficient in any one of the bala, one cannot emerge out of the realm of the respective patipakkha. Of the five bala, viriya-bala and panna-bala are also iddhipada. Hence, if these two bala are strong and co-ordinated, it does not happen that one cannot rise up to the work of vipassana because of the weakness of the other three bala. Then you can look at http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6g.htm where he talks about Bojjhangas. When these seven characteristics or sambodhi are acquired in a balanced manner, the yogavacara can rest assured that there is no deficiency in his kayagata-sati. He can rest assured that there is no deficiency in his perception of anicca or anatta, and in his mental and bodily energy. Because his mind is set at rest in regard to these three factors, he experiences joy in the knowledge that he can now perceive the light of Nibbna which has never before appeared to him in the past infinite samsara, even in his dreams. Because of that joy and ease of mind, his attention on the kammatthana objects becomes extremely calm and steady and upekkha (equanimity) which is free from the anxieties and efforts for mindfulness, perception of anicca and anatta, and the necessity to evoke energy, arises. All the above statements are made with reference to the stage at which the sambojjhanga are in unison with one another and their respective functions are specially clear. As far as ordinary sambojjhahga are concerned, from the moment kayagata-sati is set up, the dhamma such as sati are known as sambojjhanga. When the Buddha said that the seven sambojjanga must be practised, as in: Satisambojjhangam bhaveti, viveka nissitam, viraga nissitam, nirodha nissitam, vossaggaparinamim... upekkha sambojjhangam bhaveti, viveka nissitam, viraga nissitam, nirodha nissitam, vossaggaparinamim', [127] it is meant that in the ordinary course, the process of setting up kayagata-sati (such as out-breath and in- breath) amounts to the setting up of the seven bojjhanga. For the distinctive and specific setting up of the bojjhanga, see the Commentary on the Bojjhanga Vibhanga.[128] - Kelvin 41470 From: Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas I see...well I do not know if through Dry Vipassana one can reach Jhanas or not. However, one thing that I do know is that Vipassana requires samma samadhi, concentration, although at a much lesser degree than Wet vipassana. You see, sila samadhi and panna are like iron triangles, one does not work without the other. One must have perfected sila to have peace of mind to practice samadhi and one must have sufficient samma samadhi in order to attain panna (Vipassana leads to panna). Vipassana requires one to observe nama and rupa as it is, equanimously, if one does not have samma samadhi, then one can not observe nama and rupa with equanimity, in fact one may not be able to meditate at all without concentration. Panna (wisdom) makes the practice of sila (morality) much stronger. I believe the Buddha attained certain levels of jhanas (I believe the 9th jhana if i'm not mistaken), but he only needed the first jhana to practice Vipassana and became fully enlightened. Jhana makes one very peaceful, sharp, and in some cases able to perform supernatural acts, however, one does not become wise and one will never attain enlightenment...there is still ego, lobha dosa moha (hatred, greed, ignorance). I suspect that Vipassana does not enable one to attain Jhana, only samantha bhavana (meditation of concentration, like samma samadhi) will do that. But don't take my word for it, I don't know for sure. I think now the question lies in whether you would like to attain certain levels of equanimity and able to become powerful/ supernatural feats or are you more concerned with developing wisdom, and full realization to attain arahantship. Hope that info was clear and useful =) []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ----- Original Message ----- From: "nowtide" To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 7:52 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas > > > > Wet Vipassana is Vipassana that employs te use of Jhana (Bhante > Gunaratana, Buddhadasa Bikkhu) Dry Vipassana is Vipassana that does > not use Jhana (ie Mahasi style Vipassana, Goenka, Ajahn Tong). > > I am not so much concerned with reaching Jhana, and in fact have > done so under the guidance of a teacher on retreat and during my own > home practice- I must not have asked my question properly. > <....> 41471 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:08pm Subject: Re: jhanas Hi, > From my own experience with Jhana and in talking with practitiones > of Mahasi Vipassana I find that they experience something They're very much similar experience because it's mostly due to the calmness arising from strong samadhi. Here I quote Ledi sayadaw: The samadhi-dhamma called sammadhindriya, sammadhi-bala, and samadhi- magganga, is called samadhi-sambojjhanga. Alternatively, the parikamma-samadhi, upacara-samadhi, appana-samadhi, or the eight sammapatti, associated with the work of samatha and citta-visuddhi, and sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi, appanihita-samadhi, associated with panna-visuddhi, are called samadhi-sambojjhanga. The samadhi that accompanies vipassana-nana, or magga-nana and phala- nana, are called by such names as sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi and appanihita-samadhi. > If those practicing Mahasi style Vipassana do in fact reach Jhana as > part of the practice then that would change the debate entirely, and > perhaps even resolve it. Unlikely it'll be resolved for following reasons. Most people are only proficient in one method and like to think theirs is the "correct" one. Or they have tried one method and found it didn't work for them so it must be "wrong". When they discover one that fits better with them, they automatically reject all other ones. Or color everything with their tinted glasses and present everything from that perspective insisting it has to be seen that way. Only a Buddha is a master of all methods not even chief disciples, much less ordinary arahats. We've had numerous threads stating that magga citta is not possible without at least 1st jhana quality samadhi. If you believe in Abhidhamma then there's just no arguing about it. There are different ways of getting there and different objects one can utilize. There's also different emphasis on what to cultivate, samadhi versus sati. I can give you the message numbers if you're willing to wade through the material. Bottom line is it doesn't matter, just take one method by a good teacher and apply it. If you do it properly, you'll get to Nibbana. - Kel 41472 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi, > > > From my own experience with Jhana and in talking with practitiones > > of Mahasi Vipassana I find that they experience something > They're very much similar experience because it's mostly due to > the calmness arising from strong samadhi. Here I quote Ledi sayadaw: > > The samadhi-dhamma called sammadhindriya, sammadhi-bala, and samadhi- > magganga, is called samadhi-sambojjhanga. Alternatively, the > parikamma-samadhi, upacara-samadhi, appana-samadhi, or the eight > sammapatti, associated with the work of samatha and citta-visuddhi, > and sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi, appanihita-samadhi, > associated with panna-visuddhi, are called samadhi-sambojjhanga. The > samadhi that accompanies vipassana-nana, or magga-nana and phala- > nana, are called by such names as sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi > and appanihita-samadhi. > > > If those practicing Mahasi style Vipassana do in fact reach Jhana > as > > part of the practice then that would change the debate entirely, > and > > perhaps even resolve it. > Unlikely it'll be resolved for following reasons. Most people > are only proficient in one method and like to think theirs is > the "correct" one. Or they have tried one method and found it > didn't work for them so it must be "wrong". When they discover one > that fits better with them, they automatically reject all other > ones. Or color everything with their tinted glasses and present > everything from that perspective insisting it has to be seen that > way. Only a Buddha is a master of all methods not even chief > disciples, much less ordinary arahats. > We've had numerous threads stating that magga citta is not > possible without at least 1st jhana quality samadhi. If you believe > in Abhidhamma then there's just no arguing about it. There are > different ways of getting there and different objects one can > utilize. There's also different emphasis on what to cultivate, > samadhi versus sati. I can give you the message numbers if you're > willing to wade through the material. Bottom line is it doesn't > matter, just take one method by a good teacher and apply it. If you > do it properly, you'll get to Nibbana. > > - Kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Chris, and All, Thanks Kel. It is very clear answer and it is also very clever answer. Yes. The problem is that green glassess. Some hold this and some hold that and they are just arguing. If on the path there is no way that one cannot reach nibbana. That is one must reach nibbana. With respect, Htoo Naing 41473 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:28pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Tep) - ========================== The Buddha defined right concentration as the first 4 jhanas. Right concentration is one out of eight as regards the 8-fold path. It *is* a requisite condition for liberation. It cannot be dispensed with. It is not, however, a *sufficient* condition. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Are you sure? Are the last 4 jhanas also 'right concentration'? That is are the 4 arupa jhanas right concentration? With respect, Htoo Naing 41474 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Tep, Kel and All, Just butting in. These 5 bala dhammas or these 5 indriya dhammas are the chief in achieving enlightenment. There are 31 realms. In terms of enlightenment leaving manussa realm, the highest realms are rupa brahma realms. There may be arahats, anagams, and sakadagams in arupa brahma bhumis. But unlike other realms, 5 pure abode or 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumis are all the realms of ariyas. All are anagams or arahats. There are 5 realms. They are 5. akanittha 4. sudassii 3. sudassaa 2. atappaa 1. avihaa The highest is akanittha 4th jhana brahma bhumi. These ariya brahma have strongest panna. Sudassii brahmas have strongest samadhi. Sudassaa brahmas have strongest viriya. Atappaa brahmas have strongest sati. Avihaa brahmas have strongest saddha. There are reborn in there because they had balanced these 5 even though they started with their strongest power. As Kel mentioned quoted from Ledi's when there are not all these to the fullest power then there are breakages. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Kel - > > In your message # 40384 I have learned a number of useful things > about indriya, concentration, sama-samadhi, object of lokuttara citta, > and viriya that is associated with lobha (trying too hard). At the end of > the post the 'bojjhanga' is briefly mentioned as follows. > > Kel : You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading > the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. > By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So > once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced. > > T: Since balancing the 5 indriyas to achieve the "bojjhanga quality" is > very important, could you please elaborate the above comment > further? > > I truly appreciate the clear answers you gave in #43084. > > > Kindest regards, > > > Tep > > ============== 41475 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:55pm Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: sotapanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > ---------- > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:44:14 +0100 > Aan: > Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: sotapanna > > Dear Yong Peng, > op 28-01-2005 11:50 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: > > Nina, I have an additional question. What does the Tipitaka say about the > realisation of a sotapanna? > > N: Samyutta Nikaya, Mahaavagga, Book XI , Sotaapatti Samyutta. Many suttas > about this subject. For example the first one: Raajah, about ..snip.. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much for forwarding this message. It is very helpful. With respect, Htoo Naing 41476 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (248) Dear Dhamma Friends, Niraya bhumis have been discussed to some extent. Akusala marana- asanna-javanas and arising of duggati patisandhi has been related in the previous post. Tiracchanna or animals are another apaya bhumi or another woeful plane of existence. Some may already know that there are some fortunate animals and they are gaining profits as actors in films and movies, circus, armies etc. But they do have limitation and they are beings of woeful plane. Tiracchanna derives from 'Ti' and 'Channa' or 'Chandha'. They generally have three chandha or 3 wishes. They are animal instincts. Sleeping, eating, having sex are three wishes of animals. Animals are reborn with 'ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta' and this is the same citta that serves as patisandhi citta of hell beings. There are enormous amount of animals and they are countless and uncountable. Even though there are some exceptions, animals are generally dealing with akusala daily. So it is shocking to be reborn as an animal. Why? Because once one is reborn in animal realms then he or she is hardly escape from those realms. Because again they are doing akusala all the time even though some few animals may have some chances to do kusala dhamma. They have constant worry of being attacked by other animals and men. They have constant worry of not having enough food. They have to fight the same animals of the same sex for their sex life as there is no rules in animal realms. As they do have enough panna their dying is always with suffering like domanassa. If they are being killed by other animals like a deer killed by a tiger they have to die with pain and anger and this akusala again leads to another rebirth at woeful planes. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41477 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi all, I have a couple of thoughts to add to this thread. Concepts are either words or signs. Since words are forms of signs we can say concepts are signs. They act as identifiers. All identities are signs or are signaled by signs. In one important way signs make an error in identifying the conditioned as unconditioned (there are other identity errors as well). Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently unconditioned is conditioned. I wouldn't say signs are nonexistent, but rather the error that signs signal is nonexistent. The question is, how do signs signal that the conditioned is unconditioned, i.e., permanent? Why is this problem pervasive? How can we counteract it? Larry 41478 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (249) Dear Dhamma Friends, Hell beings do not have a defined lifespan. So they may live just a minute to many many kappas. Animals also do not have a stable lifespan. Peta or petta or hungry ghosts also do not have a defined lifespan. They may live just for a day to kappas long. So do asurakaaya or demons. Human beings also do not have a stable lifespan. There are many kinds of peta even though it is counted as one realm of 4 woeful planes of existence. Peta should not be confused with low power devas who are beings of kama sugati bhumi. Examples are rukkha- jiva or tree-dwelling devas, bhumma-jiva or ground-dwelling devas and many other wandering low power devas. These devas are beings of sugati bhumi. Petas are always hungry. There are different kinds of peta. Some have very hugh body but have very small mouth. So they cannot eat enough to fulfil their hugh body. Some peta do not have skin and they have been suffering from intense weathering like cold and heat. Some petas have open stomach or open abdomen according to their akusala. So their internal organs and viscera are exposed and crows are pricking and shearing their organs. Some petas have only bones and they do not have to eat anything and they have been suffering since they have been born there as skeleton- ghosts or petas. Some petas have rotating razors on their heads which is constantly cutting their scalp and causing constant bleeding without every being weak but continue to suffer as long as their kamma dictate them to stay there in that peta realm. Like hell beings most petas are reborn with oppapaatika patisandhi or rebirth with full-blown body. The margin between the previous life cuti and current life patisandhi is so thin that some do not recognise that they have died in the previous life and they are no more in the previous realm. In the new realm [peta] here, some look at other beings [petas] and feel that such and such beings are beautiful [in their eye] because they are wearing beautiful on their heads. As this thought pushes them they approach those petas with rotating razors on their heads and ask for to give them that beautiful flower. When the old kamma is used up the turn is finished and that particular peta gives the razors-rollers to others who asked for. But they have to go to another areas for further suffering as long as they still have akusala kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41479 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:18pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi James > > Please look at a sutta in MN known as the noble search where Buddha > learnt the jhanas from the two masters. > > One must go through the material jhanas before entering the > immaterial jhanas. I have not seen a sutta quote where one can > directly go to the immaterial jhanas without going through the > material jhanas. If you come across one, please let me know, because > it will good to know such things do happen. > > Jhanas is right concentration if and only if the first seven are > right, which means there must be right understanding first. One > cannot enter a jhana (a buddhist jhana) without at least the aloof of > sensual pleasure which means there must be right understanding, right > sila etc. Jhana without right understanding as a percusor, is the > same as the jhanas experience by the brahims at Buddha times. > > > Ken O > p.s. please look at other definition of samadhi :-) > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html Well, you still have not responded to the sutta quote I already gave you about the only time, prior to enlightenment, the Buddha had achieved the first jhana when he was a child. How many times do I need to ask you? You ask me for sutta quotes about various and sundry items but I am not going to provide them until you answer my first question. Remember, you don't call the shots here. This is supposed to be an equal exchange. Thanks for the links to other suttas about samadhi but I had read them previously. What would you like to say about them? I have one thing to say about them: In AN IV. 41 "Samadhi Sutta" the Buddha states, ""Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?..." He then goes on to explain the four possible developments of concentration. You will notice that he list the four jhanas but he doesn't list the four immaterial attainments. Why? Do you think he just forgot them? No, he didn't list them because they are not attained through concentration and they are not necessarily linked to the jhanas. Again, what the Buddha had learned from his former teachers was not in any way associated with the jhanas. Metta, James 41480 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi Jon, Regarding where a cup of tea comes from, you wrote: J: "Regarding your example of the cup of tea, we need to keep in mind that it is *experiencing through the sense-doors* that is the result of the former intention, for example, the seeing of visible object, tasting of taste, experiencing of heat, softness, etc. through the body-sense. So the cup of tea itself can never be the *result* of previous intention." L: Maybe we could say the cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa in that it is a group of rupas arranged by present intention. However, in some mysterious way this cup of tea fulfills kamma initiated by previous intention and there will possibly be a subsequent fulfillment of the kamma involved in the intentional production of the cup of tea. See CMA p.172: "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipaakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face." If we don't say a cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa then is there no intention responsible for producing it? I have a feeling I am missing some abhidhamma regarding the mechanics of intentional action. Do you know anything about this? Larry 41481 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:32pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (250) Dear Dhamma Friends, There is a fourth woeful plane called asurakaaya bhumi or demon realm. They are very much like human beings and they have same characteristics like human beings. They are reborn with a patisandhi citta of 'ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta' which is the same as those of hell beings, animals, and petas. Again these asurakaayas are also reborn with full-blown matured size beings and they are said to be oppapaatika patisandhi that is they are reborn with full-blown body. But they always have some defect and they have been suffering almost always all the time. Some asurakaayas do not have any water to drink and they are always thirsty all the time. This is because of their akusala kamma which were done in their past lives. Some asurakaaya do not have eyes and some do not have ears. Some do not have legs or feet. Some are happily live in the day time and they have to undergo bad suffering at night time as their kamma dictate. They have to do so as long as there are kamma that dictate such happening and such events. Some asurakaayas are being eaten by hugh dogs without even dying but constantly suffering from being eaten away. Some asurakaayas are taking, scratching, nibbing their own flesh and eat for themselves and this is as dictated by their old kamma. Some asurakaayas are doing jobs in the day time and at night they flock together and then they go for a place where there is a great fire created by themselves and then they each step into that great fire at each night. This is as their old kamma dictate and they will be in that state as long as their kamma are still there. They are mostly away from kusala dhamma and they are almost always in the state of great suffering. This suffering again adds further akusala and once in that realm it is hard to escape from that realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41482 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon (and Howard), To jump in here: Jon: It's interesting how, when one looks closely and carefully at what is said in the suttas, what we take at first sight to be an instruction to do conventional actions turns out to be neither an instruction nor a reference to conventional actions. This just bears out what we know already, that we are inclined to read suttas as supporting our own particular viewpoint. I think I've been very fortunate in having much of my own misreadings brought to my attentoin over the years. James: Jon, you are being very general so I will respond in a very general way. I don't believe that you are fortunate at all to have your mind twisted away from the true meaning of the suttas. The Abhidhamma is simply a description for reality; it doesn't advocate or describe a practice. The suttas, however, do advocate and describe various practices for liberation. When one tries to warp the meaning of the suttas to fit the approach of the Abhidhamma, the result is that the dhamma is lost. The Buddha said that he only taught suffering and the way to end suffering- from your approach one would conclude that he only taught suffering. Metta, James 41483 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Howard --------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is analogous to saying that consciousness is neutral - > that its being eye consciousness or ear consciousness etc depends on the conditioning sense door, with the implication that all consciousness is just consciousness. > Not all consciousness is the same. Likewise not all kamma is the same. Ignorance conditions cetana (kamma), and the manner in which it is conditioned effects the nature of that cetana, and that in turn effects its consequences. If two dhammas are differently conditioned, it is not the case that the dhammas are the same but their conditioning "roots" different - the dhammas are then different as well. k: Yes citta is neutral. Citta is different depend largely on our reaction to the object. Likewise, dhammas are only different as what you say due to the roots, this is the same for kamma, it is only different due to the roots. It is the root that will condition the direction of the mind and not kamma. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ignorance conditions kamma, and through that, all else. But > recall that D.O. is a cyclic, not linear. The conditioninbg is manifold and complex. > What is false view is that ones past kamma *determines* > current and future kamma. But it certainly conditions it. The point is that there are other factors at work as well, else that is past-action determinism in effect. Our being born as humans involves a host of conditions that affect our current volitions. That human birth was kamma vipaka. Thus, the prior kamma that led to this human birth was a distant condition affecting our current kamma. It is false that our current intentions, volitions, and actions are dependent of prior intentions, volitions, and actions. There > clearly is a dependency. What there is *not* is a deterministic, sole dependency. Conditionality is complex and multifaceted. k: Kamma is twofold in the D.O. First as what we known as vipaka kamma that is where we are born human etc. The other is what we known as cetana. Being born as human is due to vipaka kamma. The prior kamma that leads to the birth as vipaka kamma is cetana what we have done. However it is not kamma that says this is a kusala or akusala. Cetana will act kusala or akusala only because of the roots. If cetana is the cause of kusala and akusala, then cetana will determine our future actions. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's like saying that it is not Saddam Hussein who > tortured people, but his parents who gave birth to him. If marble A hits marble B, knocking it into marble C, it does not become false that marble B hot marble C.(Imagine if there is a line of colliding marbles with no beginning! Then your argument would conclude that there are no collisions at all.) > ------------------------------------------------ k: Nope. Saddam Hussein cetana in this way because of its roots. Your this example actually illustrate that if cetana is the cause of kusala and akusala, than Saddam Husseein can blame his parents and his past births. Ken O 41484 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James > Well, you still have not responded to the sutta quote I already > gave you about the only time, prior to enlightenment, the Buddha had achieved the first jhana when he was a child. How many times do I need to ask you? k: Oops sorry James. Nope, Buddha did practise jhanas as I said in MN titled "the Noble Search" from the brahim masters. If the first jhana he attained during childhood is with wisdom, then he will be at least a stream entrant at that time. The jhanas he remember is the same he has been practising for countless lives, mundane jhanas - of no use - only lead to kusala birth. j: Remember, you don't call the shots here. This is supposed to be an equal exchange. k: I believe in equality ;-). > > Thanks for the links to other suttas about samadhi but I had read > them previously. What would you like to say about them? I have > one thing to say about them: In AN IV. 41 "Samadhi Sutta" the Buddha states, ""Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?..." He then goes on to explain the four possible developments of concentration. You will notice that he list the four jhanas but he doesn't list the four immaterial attainments. Why? Do you think he just forgot them? No, he didn't list them because they are not attained through concentration and they are not necessarily linked to the jhanas. k: The four jhanas are listed while the immaterial jhanas are not listed because any being during enlightment will experience the material jhanas (If my memory does not fail me). Whether one experience immaterial jhanas or not that will depend on the person accumulations ;-). Again, what the Buddha had learned from his former teachers was not in any way associated with the jhanas. k: hmmmm, maybe you like to quote the text to prove that I am getting old and my memory is getting bad (ahhh impermance). Ken O 41485 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:54pm Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 1/29/05 7:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Are you sure? > > Are the last 4 jhanas also 'right concentration'? That is are the 4 > arupa jhanas right concentration? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= I'm sure of almost nothing. I'm just reporting what I read the Buddha as saying. I have also heard that the 4 higher jhanas are actually refinements of the 4th jhana. If I'm not mistaken, the Buddha attained Arahanthood from the base of the 4th jhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41486 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/29/05 10:24:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > It is > false that our current intentions, volitions, and actions are > dependent of prior intentions, volitions, and actions. ========================= Somehow something got lost in your quoting me here, Ken. What I wrote was "independent", not "dependent". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41487 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 5:40:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. Hi Larry If errors happen, how can they be non-existent? Why are they by definition non-existent? If I see a mirage that looks like water...that's an error in interpretation or misperception, but the conditions for the mirage are still there. And the misperception really did arise... based on conditions. Curious to what you mean. TG 41488 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry L: Concepts are either words or signs. Since words are forms of signs we can say concepts are signs. They act as identifiers. All identities are signs or are signaled by signs. In one important way signs make an error in identifying the conditioned as unconditioned (there are other identity errors as well). Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently unconditioned is conditioned. I wouldn't say signs are nonexistent, but rather the error that signs signal is nonexistent. The question is, how do signs signal that the conditioned is unconditioned, i.e., permanent? Why is this problem pervasive? How can we counteract it? k: Identities are not signal by sign, they are marked by sanna. Signs dont make error, they are just objects. It is our latency roots that make the error, identifying them as pleasurable, or not or neutral or identifying them as permanent or belongs to onself. The problem is pervavise because this habit has been with us for countless lives. The only way to counteract is development of wisdom, knowing them as anicca, anatta and dukkha. k: When Buddha says that the origination of dukkha is craving, it is very clear that it is craving that cause the pervavise problem of us clinging to object. Objects is not the cause, it is our reactions to the object is the cause. Similarly, when Buddha is still alive, he still hear, see etc like ordinary person. But his roots are uprooted, there is no more craving to be found, hence no more wood to add to the fire of rebirth. If signs are the cause of our rebirth, then no one can be liberated. It is the reactions of the sign that matters and not the sign itself. The development of the path is about developing panna so as to see the signs as they really are. Ken O 41489 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, TG: "If errors happen, how can they be non-existent? Why are they by definition non-existent? If I see a mirage that looks like water...that's an error in interpretation or misperception, but the conditions for the mirage are still there. And the misperception really did arise... based on conditions. L: If you see a mirage that you identify as water the nonexistent error is the nonexistent water but the error (misidentification) really did arise. Similarly if a thought is identified as self the error is self identity. There is no self but the error conditions dukkha. If an error were nonexistent there wouldn't be an error. If an error were existent there wouldn't be an error. Error is both existent and nonexistent (being careful about the word 'existent'). There must be some philosophical lingo for this logic. Larry 41490 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken O, K: "Identities are not signal by sign, they are marked by sanna." L: See the analysis of sanna below. Vism.XIV,130. "But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men." Larry 41491 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! Hi Maya, --- Waters Illusion wrote: > > Greetings all Dhamma Friends, > > My name is Maya. I was born in Indonesia, but is currently living > however I now reside in the US. I have been practicing vipassana > for 4 years. Now, I am interested in learning more satipatthana, > the Vipassana technique taught by Mahasi, and also the abhidhamma. :) ... S:Thanks for introducing yourself here. Very glad to hear that you're so interested in satipatthana and abhidhamma :). There are a few other Indonesians here - mostly in lurk mode, I think. > > []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} > > "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that > is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ... S: Only now do I see that you have signed off with your name and a great signature tag. I also thought you made a good comment when you said: "I also think that you should not dwell so much in the fact whether you have attained a certain jhana for that might lead to craving and attachment :)." I look forward to more of your contributions. Metta, Sarah. ======= 41492 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry > > Vism.XIV,130. "But though classed in the same way as consciousness, > nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the > characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a > condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as > carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men." k: does that contradict what I have said. If there is, please point out. I dont see any difference because no object can be identitfied without sanna. Ken O 41493 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert Well, I think this question is one of the most difficult and the disputes over it will go on as long as Buddhism exists. As far as I understand, Nanananda’s approach is not very orthodox. Nevertheless, it is also an attempt to shed some light on the deep doctirnes in the Canon. As for parinibbana, he describes it as complete cessation of being, annihilation, or bhavanirodha. Here are some of his remarks on the lustrous mind: When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it penetrates through the net of nama-rupa out into infinitude and “viewpoints” give place to an all-encompassing vision. In this respect it is described as “lustrous-all-round” and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a fading away of all objects, which earlier appeared to be “significant” due to the bewitching gleam of consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as “the cessation of the six sense-spheres” (salayatana-nirodha). Elsewhere he writes “hence they (concepts) pale away and shrunk into insignificance, as do twilight stars on the advent of the moon, or the moon at sunrise. Yet, in its lustre, wisdom supersedes seven the sun, for the suttas tell us that even the latter pales before it. Then he quotes Udana 9: There, where earth, water, and wind no footing find….. In his opinion this state is anna–phala-samadhi, or anidassana-vinnana (the non-manifistative consciousness). “It is a gaze that is neither conscious nor non-conscious, … a gaze that knows no horizon”. After the arahant dies this state ceases in parinibbana. With metta, Cosmique TGrand458@a... wrote: In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:06:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Dear Dhamma-friends, In his book “Concept & Realityâ€? Bhikkhu Nanananda identifies this luminous state and the above verse about no-fire, no-earth, etc. with arahatta-phala-samadhi. Destruction or cessacion of nama–rupa according to his interpretation is nothing but destruction of concepts of nama-rupa in that state of consciousness. Fire, earth etc. that find no footing means absence of the concepts of fire, earth, etc. in that state of mind. In general, he interprets the deep verses about nibbana (like Udana 80) psychologically rather than metaphysically which can solve a great deal of misunderstandings. With metta, Cosmique Hi Cosmique Nibbana with residue is a temporary cessation of nama. It is not Wholly Destroyed. Also, no need to speak of rupa being destroyed in that case because the lack of concepts, without Nama, is obvious. Another translation translates...paraphrasing... that -- "Name and form" cease without remainder. Both "wholly destroyed" and "cease without remainder" indicate parinibbana. I don't know if he is solving misunderstandings or generating them. But there seems to be two solid reasons for not agreeing with his interpretation. His interpretation requires considerable "creative license" in order to hold water. Perhaps his thinking is "too mentality oriented" or perhaps I'm dead wrong. The way I see...the Four Great Elements find no footing because there is no craving to hold them together. Name and form are wholly destroyed because they are destroyed. But as far as the word "luminous" goes in this context, I don't have a basis for understanding it. TG The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41494 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry Objects can conditioned lobha but they are not lobha. It is lobha tha matters and not the object be it concepts or rupa. Rupa and concepts are neutral, they are not akusala by nature, they only become akusala when citta reacted the object with akuasala roots conditioned by latency (less the vipaka cittas that arise with rupa). Buddha like us has sanna, also perceives concepts like us, also identify concepts like us. So it is not the identification that matters, it is the kusala and akusala paramatthas that arise with the identification that matters. Just like a bar of pure gold can conditioned lobha to arise, but lobha is not the pure gold, neither does the sign of gold is lobha. It is lobha that matters not pure gold. Ken O 41495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Larry, op 29-01-2005 01:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "1: The experience which is feeling: if it is bodily feeling it > accompanies body-consciousness and arises in the body-door process." > > This is exactly what I am talking about. Feeling IS experience. N: Yes, it is experience, it is different from dead matter that does not experience anything. It is naama, not ruupa. It is one of the naama-kkhandhas. L: It is > misleading to say feeling experiences some other dhamma. N: Since it is naama it must experience an object. Feeling may be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. In the case of bodily feeling it is vipaaka, result of kamma. When it is akusala it experiences in an unwholesome way. =========================== Review of feeling khandha: =========== L: An object of > consciousness is a condition for the arising of that consciousness (or > cetasika), but, as object, the object is not an experience. N: An object may be: citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana or concept. Remember the six classes of objects. Citta can experience another citta that has just fallen away, or a cetasika such as feeling. L:An unpleasant bodily feeling arises as experience and conditions the > arising of aversion. N: Right. L:When aversion arises there is no experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. N: Citta rooted in aversion can experience as object the bodily pain that has just fallen away, why not? Don't we experience pain with aversion? It is natural. =========== A review of feeling khandha: ============= L:Similarly, the experience which is bodily feeling is not the experience that is body consciousness and the > experience that is body consciousness is not rupa, and rupa is not an > experience. N: Right. bodily feeling and body consciousness are different types of nama. The first is cetasika and the second is citta. The cetasika accompanies the citta. L: If we take this view it seems to me there are multiple simultaneous > experiences that are cetasikas arising in any given moment. N: No problem. L: I think the reason it seems like we experience only one thing at a time is because > of deluded perception. N: Citta can experience only one object at a time, not two objects. This is the truth. L: Perception will take one dhamma of many that > arise to act as symbol or sign to represent the 'whole' group. Often > this one sign then becomes a condition for the arising of another group > of experiences (cetasikas). > There may be problems with the role of perception here. Maybe there is a > better way to explain it. N: I do not follow you here. Also saññaa has to accompany citta, thus, it experiences one object at a time, it marks and remembers one object at a time. This object may be a concept of a whole of impressions. L: In the specific case of 'taking an object of consciousness', as in > jhana, perhaps we could say a repeated clear sign is the condition for > the jhana factors to arise (simultaneously) rather than saying the jhana > factors experience the sign. N: When these cetasikas are developed as jhanafactors they can arise with jhanacitta that experiences the meditation subject. Then citta and cetasikas are not kaamavaccara, but rupaavacara. Another plane of citta. They are not involved with sense impressions. L: The sign is an experience and the jhana > factors are experiences N: The sign, say, a kasina, is not an experience. It is not naama. But it can be experienced with absorption by the jhanacitta and accompanying cetasikas. L: but it doesn't make sense to me to say one > experience experiences another experience. N: I do not see any problem here. =========== Review of feeling khandha: When we read in the Satipatthaana Sutta the words: we should remember the real meaning of these words as explained above. They point to the truth of anatta.> =============== When we think, I have as experience feeling, feeling is an experience I have, then, before we know it, there may be a notion of self, of: I am sitting here, and I note feeling. We are so used to this idea. It can be corrected by remembering the basics of Abhidhamma and above all by satipatthana. Nina. 41496 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26am Subject: Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Intro. The Visuddhimagga now proceeds explaining all the cetasikas that are included in sa.nkhaarakkhandha, to begin with phassa, contact. The Expositor p. 143 explains that contact is mentioned first in the order of teaching. One could also say: there is feeling and contact, etc. There is no sequence in them, they arise together. While they arise together they condition one another. Text Vis. 134. Herein, (i) it touches (phusati), thus it is 'contact' (phassa). This has the characteristic of touching. Its function is the act of impingement. It is manifested as concurrence. Its proximate cause is an objective field that has come into focus. [As to its characteristic], although this is an immaterial state, yet it occurs with respect to an object as the act of touching too [60]. And [as to its function], although it is not adherent on any one side [61] as eye-cum-visible-object and ear-cum-sound are, yet it is what makes consciousness and the object impinge. ---------------------- Note 60 taken from the Tiika: ' "As the act of touching too": by this he shows that this is its individual essence even though it is immaterial. And the characteristic of touching is obvious in its occurrence in such instances as, say, the watering of the mouth in one who sees another tasting vinegar or a ripe mango, the bodily shuddering in a sympathetic person who sees another being hurt, the trembling of the knees in a timid man standing on the ground when he sees a man precariously balanced on a high tree branch, the loss of power of the legs in one who sees something terrifying such as pisaaca (goblin)' (Pm. 484-85). N: With these similes the Tiika illustrates that there is phassa without adherence, without there being the physical contact between two things. It is mental contact, aruupa-dhamma as the Tiika emphasizes. We read in the Expositor (p. 143): < There is no impinging on one side of the object [as in physical contact], nevertheless contact causes consciousness and object to be in collision....> The cetasika contact does not impinge on a sense organ, it merely accompanies citta while it as it were Œtouches¹ the object so that citta can experience it. The naama-dhamma phassa touches in a way different from a rupa that impinges on a sense organ. Note 61 from the Tiika.(For 'non-adherent' see par. 46.) ' "On any one side" means not sticking (asa'msilissamaana). It is only the impact without adherence that contact shares with visible data and sound, not the objective field. Just as, though eye and ear are non-adherent respectively to visible data and sounds still they have the word "touched" used of them, so too it can be said of contact's touching and impinging on the object. Contact's impingement is the actual concurrence (meeting) of consciousness and object' (Pm. 485). N: This clarifies the difference between impact of, for example, visible object on eyesense and the impact of contact, which is the concurrence of citta and visible object. Text Vis.: It is said to be manifested as concurrence because it has been described as its own action, namely, the concurrence of the three [(cf. M.i,111), that is, eye, visible object, and eye-consciousness]. N: This is the activity of contact: to be the condition for the coming together of eye, visible object, and seeing, etc. The Tiika refers to a simile taken from the ŒQuestions of Milinda¹ (I, 60) about two hands that are clapping against each other, comparing their collision with contact. The Expositor (p. 144) elaborates on this, stating that one hand represents the eye, the other hand visible object and their collision contact. It also mentions the simile of two rams that fight and two cymbals that are struck. These similes illustrate that contact has the characterisits of touch and the function of impact when it arises in a sense-door process. The Expositor explains that contact arising in a mind-door process only has the characteristic of touch, not the function of impact. In the mind-door process there is not the impact of ruupa on another ruupa, the sense-base. We have to remember that phassa is mental, no matter whether it arises in a sense-door process or a mind-door process. The Tiika adds that contact of the citta with the object should be seen as only cetasika dhamma. Thus, phassa is cetasika, it is mental. Text Vis.: And it is said to have as its proximate cause an objective field that has come into focus because it arises automatically through the appropriate [conscious] reaction and with a faculty when the objective field is presented. N: The Expositor (p. 145) explains in a way similar to the Tiika: Text Vis.:But it should be regarded as like a hideless cow (S.ii,99) because it is the habitat [62] of feeling. Note 62. Adhi.t.thaana--'habitat' (or site or location or foundation). N: The Vis. and also the Tiika refer to the text in the Kindred Sayings II, 99 (Child¹s Flesh) where contact is explained as nutriment-condition. A cow with a sore hide would be bitten by creatures, no matter in what place she would be. This illustrates that contact conditions feeling. *** Remark: contact conditions feeling that arises at the same time and they experience, each in their own way, the same object as the citta they accompany. The Dhammasangani mentions the first type of mahaa-kusala citta of the sense-sphere with its accompanying cetasikas. They arise together and have as object: visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object, object of thought (dhammaarama.na) or whatever object there is. It states: Pleasant and unpleasant objects are experienced one at a time, as they present themselves through the six doors. Whatever object appears, phassa contacts it so that citta can experience it. We find it very important to experience pleasant objects and we cling to pleasant feeling. However, nobody can arrange what object presents itself at a given moment. When one hears disagreeable words, the sound is only an object impinging on the earsense and phassa contacts it so that it can be heard. When understanding arises and it realizes sound as only a kind of ruupa, phassa contacts the object in a wholesome way, and also the accompanying feeling and the other accompanying dhammas are kusala. When there is aversion towards the sound, phassa contacts the object in an unwholesome way, and also the accompanying feeling and the other accompanying dhammas are akusala. Learning about phassa that contacts objects one at a time as they present themselves through the six doors, reminds us of the truths of impermanence and anattaa. ***** Nina. 41497 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Dear Nina, I need squillions of reminders just like this, and even then - not enuff. Its never enuff until arahat - I guess. BTW, I like Lodewijk's comments, via you, that I read on some of your posts. His comments sound very wise. Thank you again, Nina, for all your help. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > such things can happen, it is natural. We should not mind whatever appears, > it has appeared already. Kusala, akusala, pleasant, unpleasant, happy > feelings, unhappy feelings. There are conditions for all of them. If we do > not mind what appears there are conditions for awareness. We do not select > any object, we are not choosy. > Nina. 41498 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 b Hi Azita > Azita: the 'they consume me all day' hit a chord in me, and rather > than being discouraged, I was confused. A few events over the past > 2 weeks have 'brought out the worst in me' so to speak. Despite > thinking 'but I should know better, I'm a student of the Dhamma, why > am I being so mean to this person', I continued to be mean to that > person. I hated myself for it which did not help, and now the mean > feelings have gone and I'm pleasant to that person. It's fascinating, isn't it, to have the uncontrollability driven home? In the past we would feel lousy about it, or fret, or regret, but now we know that this is just a confirmation of the Buddha's teaching and it can be an opportunity for gratitude for His teaching. Of course, there are moments of feeling lousy as well. > I recall thinking during that time, that this is what > uncontrollability is all about. Also, I remembered Acharn Sujin > saying 'take all names away' and for me that meant that what was left > was these unpleasant feelings, dosa, stinginess [oh, and occasionally > I was nice to others :-) ], which produced pleasant feelings, kusala > or akusala - who knows - only wisdom. And of course, there was lots > of seeing, hearing etc in between. We can be surprised by detachment, by distance from telling the stories and personalizing things. For example, when I was walking home in a cold rain the other day, without an umbrella, I found myself thinking "there is coldness" instead of "I am cold" - and I found myself relaxed and not struggling against the elements. The key is that it happened without my intending it to. If on the next cold rainy day I look out the window and say "I think I'll try that 'there is coldness' thing again", the result will be quite different. It will be all about self trying to control things, in vain. "I recall thinking during that time, that this is what uncontrollability is all about." I can relate to that for sure. Aware of it. And the awareness arises, it's not something we try to have. And then there are days - like today -during which there is hardly any awareness at all. I visited the area where we'll be moving and was lost the whole time in anticipations of how good it will be. And then went to work, without any awareness as the day flew by. But there was patience with students, friendliness, now that I think of it, a lot of it. Hope it was a good movie. I saw all three "Lord of the Rings" over three days for the first time a few weeks back. Very stirring. Metta, Phil 41499 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >Hi all, > >I have a couple of thoughts to add to this thread. Concepts are either >words or signs. Since words are forms of signs we can say concepts are >signs. They act as identifiers. All identities are signs or are signaled >by signs. In one important way signs make an error in identifying the >conditioned as unconditioned (there are other identity errors as well). > > Does a sign make errors, or is it the mind that makes the sign that makes the error? If the latter, then the problem you describe below does not arise. Jon >Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of >errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly >know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see >how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently >unconditioned is conditioned. > >I wouldn't say signs are nonexistent, but rather the error that signs >signal is nonexistent. The question is, how do signs signal that the >conditioned is unconditioned, i.e., permanent? Why is this problem >pervasive? How can we counteract it? > >Larry > > 41500 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Dear Htoo (and all) In the end of your message you say: "When the old kamma is used up …" That reminds me on a question I've a longer time. So out of the context of your Dhamma Thread 249 I will ask it: All phenomena are conditioned, except Nibbana, the arise and fall away after some time that is different for different kinds of phenomena. But, is my question, how about kamma? I have read somewhere that the question "where is kamma made of, is it a nama or a rupa or an energy etc ?" should not be asked (acinteyya: the four unthinkables). But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens or hundreds or billions of years ? I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can never be reborn in higher sentient beings. And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for it, automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or shorter); or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when conditions for that falling away occur ? Or means 'used up": only when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of it? If you answer: please not to much Pali and not a to broad context. Metta Joop 41501 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Dear Azita (& Nina), --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Dear Nina, > > I need squillions of reminders just like this, and even then - > not enuff. .... ...and remember all those discussions in India (like in the Gangtok hotel garden) where we were reminded that it's useless to think about whether the cittas that have gone already are kusala or akusala or to try and be aware of them when they arise, because it's all just going to be about *self* once more - clinging again to a 'purer me'. Far more important is the development of understanding of present dhammas as not-self with detachment from whatever is conditioned. Namas have to be known as namas and rupas as rupas over and over again. Yes, when we're 'fussy' about what arises, it shows the attachment to self again. Hope you're recovered from your surgery, Azita. Appreciating all the good reminders from our discussions in your series, Nina, with the sutta quotes too. Metta, Sarah ======= 41502 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:13am Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Rob Thanks for the feedback. > So its useful to know what wrong concentration is: > In the Dhammasangani under Akusala dhammas > 386- What is the power of concentration? > That which is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, > unshakeableness, non-distraction, imperturabilty, tranqulity of > mind, the faculty of concentration, power of concentration, WRONG > concentration- this is at that time the power of concentration. > Not quite clear about what this is saying. Surely not that stability of mind etc always involve wrong power of concentration? It is saying that stability of mind etc that result from concentration is akusala if it's WRONG concentration? But the passage above doesn't make it clear to me what wrong concentration is. I'm very sleepy, I must admit. Thanks for any further classification. > This type of wrong concentration is tranquil and powerful - but it > arises with lobha (attachment). It can be very nice and peaceful. I guess many meditators in the West (especially) mistake this nice and peaceful feeling for a kind of liberating wisdom. Defilements have been supressed, so there is a sense of having cut through the cloud of ignorance, but that's not the case. When the concentration is removed, the defilements will spring back up with the same force they had before (when conditions are there) and perhaps even fortified because there is added ignorance. These days I am not fretting whatsoever about not meditating because I can see what would be behind meditation for me at this point - temporary peace of mind. But I expect I will attend vipassana classes at that Tokyo temple Sarah was kind enough to link me to. Thanks in advance for any further clarification of the Dhammasangani passage, when you have time. I don't know if I've made my question clear. Metta, Phil 41503 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Jon, you are being very general so I will respond in a very >general way. I don't believe that you are fortunate at all to have >your mind twisted away from the true meaning of the suttas. The >Abhidhamma is simply a description for reality; it doesn't advocate >or describe a practice. The suttas, however, do advocate and >describe various practices for liberation. > I don't see the kind of dichotomy you do. The realities described by the Abhidhamma include those involved in the path to liberation as described in the suttas, while the path to liberation described in the suttas is in essence the understanding of the realities that are described in the Abhidhamma. As I see it, each reflects the contents of the other, but as described from a different perspective. > When one tries to warp >the meaning of the suttas to fit the approach of the Abhidhamma, the >result is that the dhamma is lost. > I'm afraid I have no idea which of the suttas topics I've been involved in lately you have in mind here, but if you'd care to give an example or two, I'd be happy to respond (defend myself ;-)). > The Buddha said that he only >taught suffering and the way to end suffering- from your approach >one would conclude that he only taught suffering. > > Well, this observation about 'my' approach is the perception of those who read the suttas as calling for the undertaking of conventional practices being the only proper development of the path. This is why it is necessary to keep discussing particular suttas and other texts. There is much more to them than at first sight appears. Time to stop being general and get specific? Jon 41504 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:33am Subject: Further India and Thailand discussions with A.Sujin Dear Friends, 1. India There will be another Pilgrimage to India with A.Sujin along similar lines to the last one, but ending in Kashmir from 8th-23rd Oct this year. Nina definitely intends to go and we are also planning to. I think Christine is also hoping to. I know there is already a waiting list, but if anyone has any interest at all to join, pls let me know *off-list* for any details. If you wish to be put on the waiting-list let Betty, Sukin or I know asap. 2. Thailand I've just spoken with A.Sujin and she is very kindly arranging time for dhamma discussions with us in Bangkok (or possibly out of Bkk) on March 29th, 30th and tentatively 31st (just after Easter weekend). If anyone else is able to join, pls let me know off-list too. Highly recommended for anyone here! Metta, Sarah ======== 41505 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > > Thanks in advance for any further clarification of the > Dhammasangani passage, when you have time. I don't know if I've made > my question clear. ... I'll look forward to any further discussion you have with Rob too. When I recently quoted from Dan's old message which included the passages on right and wrong effort and so on, I mentioned it to him off-list. Anyway, he sent this short further comment which he said I was welcome to share. I think it's neat: Dan: "Effort, view, concentration, action, etc. are all distinct, but understanding the distinction between 'samma' and 'miccha' is the same, whether the samma/miccha applies to effort, view, etc.--is there an underlying commitment to a "Self"? And that question cannot be answered by looking at "externals" such as "...exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor..." or facility with conceptual formulations (i.e., words and models of reality)." Metta, Sarah ===== 41506 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard Here is your original post with references, and my response giving the relevant content of 3 of the 4 suttas. The fundamental issue here is whether, according to the teachings, the carrying out of conventional practices is necessary for the development of insight and the attainment of enlightenment. Jon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Howard:] With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I think are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: (II, i, 5) (II, ii, 9) (III, 32) (III, 45) (IV, 12) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41036 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Jon:] Thanks for bringing up some specific suttas for discussion. Here is the relevant part of each of suttas No 2, 3 and 4 from your list and my comments on them (these are not exact quotes from the translation but are based closely on it): **************************************** No. 2 "Abandon evil! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness. Cultivate good! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness." I see the message here as being, that the abandoning of akusala and the cultivation of kusala is indeed possible and is the way to happiness. However, I do not see this sutta as saying anything about the means whereby evil is abandoned and good cultivated. **************************************** No. 3 "Thus should one train oneself: 'We shall not entertain any I-making [wrong view], mine-making [craving] or underlying tendency to conceit [conceit]; and we shall enter and dwell in the liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, so that we are no longer subject to I-making, mine-making and the underlying tendency to conceit.' 'When a monk [achieves this] he is called a monk who has cut off craving and removed the fetters, one who, by fully breaking through conceit, has made an end to suffering." I would see this sutta as identifying wrong view, craving and conceit as bonds that tie us to continued existence, and as identifying the factor of wisdom as the way to break those bonds. I would not read it as advocating any particular conventional action or behaviour, for instance resolving/repeating 'I shall not entertain any I-making'; I believe that would be an overly-literal reading of the sutta. **************************************** No. 4 "Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one's parents." I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything in particular. **************************************** Howard, no doubt we have different views on these suttas ;-)) If you see them as prescribing conventional actions, practices or behaviour as part of the development of insight, I'd be interested to know what that would be in each case. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41187 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > Please forgive me. At this point it's been quite a while since this >thread was initiated. I'm not certain which of the suttas you are asking about. >I think you are pointing to #4? In any case, I no longer have the reference. >Would you please provide the sutta to me. I'll look it it over to decide >whether I think it - that particular sutta, taken as it is, without reading anything >extrinsic into it - recommends conventional actions to be taken, and I'll >report back to you. > >With metta, >Howard > > 41507 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/30/05 5:28:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > L: It is > >misleading to say feeling experiences some other dhamma. > N: Since it is naama it must experience an object. ======================= So, in that case, what object does nibbana experience? :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41508 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert Hello TG As far as I understand, Nanananda’s approach is not very orthodox. Nevertheless, it is also an attempt to shed some light on the deep doctirnes in the Canon. As for parinibbana, he describes it as complete cessation of being, annihilation, or bhavanirodha. Here are some of his remarks on the lustrous mind: When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it penetrates through the net of nama-rupa out into infinitude and “viewpoints” give place to an all-encompassing vision. In this respect it is described as “lustrous-all-round” and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a fading away of all objects, which earlier appeared to be “significant” due to the bewitching gleam of consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as “the cessation of the six sense-spheres” (salayatana-nirodha). Elsewhere he writes “hence they (concepts) pale away and shrunk into insignificance, as do twilight stars on the advent of the moon, or the moon at sunrise. Yet, in its lustre, wisdom supersedes seven the sun, for the suttas tell us that even the latter pales before it. Then he quotes Udana 9: There, where earth, water, and wind no footing find….. In his opinion this state is anna–phala-samadhi, or anidassana-vinnana (the non-manifistative consciousness). “It is a gaze that is neither conscious nor non-conscious, … a gaze that knows no horizon”. After the arahant dies this state ceases in parinibbana. With metta, Cosmique (Andre) The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41509 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken, Sanna makes an error that only panna can correct. This error has to do with the nature of sign itself. Sanna without panna is ignorance. This is the basic, primordial ignorance of the first link of dependent arising, the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, more pervasive than moha. Sanna, unlike moha arises with every consciousness. See the definition of vipallasa from the "Buddhist Dictionary", below: "vipallása: 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either of perception (saññá-vipallása), of consciousness (citta v.) or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); what is without a self (anattá) as a self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A. IV, 49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path- knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, 68)." Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Larry > > Objects can conditioned lobha but they are not lobha. It is lobha > tha matters and not the object be it concepts or rupa. Rupa and > concepts are neutral, they are not akusala by nature, they only > become akusala when citta reacted the object with akuasala roots > conditioned by latency (less the vipaka cittas that arise with rupa). 41510 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - Thanks for sending this on to me, Jon. In a message dated 1/30/05 8:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Hi, Howard > > Here is your original post with references, and my response giving the > relevant content of 3 of the 4 suttas. > > The fundamental issue here is whether, according to the teachings, the > carrying out of conventional practices is necessary for the development > of insight and the attainment of enlightenment. > > Jon > ======================== Jon, as goes my general opinion (which I think you know by now), I believe the Buddha taught conventional actions to be taken, and that doing these constitutes Buddhist practice, and that they are the only way to enlightenment. As regards these specific suttas, I definitely see them as recommending conventional action. To me it is crystal clear. And I know that to you the opposite is crstal clear. So it is. ;-) The 4th sutta was the main one you were questioning me about, I believe. I had posted that one mainly because it speaks of "prescribing", and not just "describing". But as regards conventional actions, look at the quote "Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one's parents." These are three conventional actions, and obviously so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41511 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Kelvin (also Htoo, Nina and Sarah) - Many thanks for the excerpt from the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's article and for its Web link. As usual, I have a few questions for you to ponder over and please answer whenever it is convenient to you (I know that you have urgent 'school works' to do). Thank you very much. I) I assume that the "respective patipakkha dhammas" are those things opposing to the five balas. For example, is tanha a patipakkha dhamma to saddha bala and, if it is so, why? II) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says that people who have saddha bala, viriya bala, and sati bala can achieve samadhi in kaya-gatasati (e.g. anapanasati). And because such people are weak in samadhi bala and panna bala, he says they won't be successful in jhana and vipassana-nana. That makes sense. But he does not mention if sati bala is important for the success in jhana or vipassana-nana. In Sayadaw's view is sati bala the same as satipatthana? [Please read Nina's "far-reaching" definition of satipatthana from one of her recent mails to me: Nina: Good you ask. Satipatthana can mean: 1: the objects of sati sampajanna, nama and rupa, classified as the four satipatthanas 2: sati of the level of satipatthana which is mindful of those objects. Then it is actually sati sampajañña, because sati without understanding is not very meaningful. 3. The Path the Buddha and his great disciples walked. This is explained in the Sutta as not being delighted when people listen nor being downcast when they do not listen.] III) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says, "Some persons are strong in panna-bala. They are learned in the Dhamma and the Pitakas. They are wise in the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities). But because the back is broken in the four other bala, they cannot emerge from the realm of tanha, kosajja, mutthasacca and vikkhepa. They live and die within the confines of these akusala. In this way, whenever one is deficient in any one of the bala, one cannot emerge out of the realm of the respective patipakkha. ... Of the five bala, viriya-bala and panna-bala are also iddhipada. Hence, if these two bala are strong and co-ordinated, it does not happen that one cannot rise up to the work of vipassana because of the weakness of the other three bala". Does the venerable mean that Abhidhamma and Pitaka scholars must have both viriya bala and panna bala, if they want to "rise up to the work of vipassana"? But, again, why is sati bala not included? (IV) "As far as ordinary sambojjhahga are concerned, from the moment kayagata-sati is set up, the dhamma such as sati are known as sambojjhanga". Is sati-sambojjhanga at the higher level (closer to Arahat-magga) than satipatthana? Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I'm going to paste some of Ledi sayadaw's words. I can also give > some illustration from experience of how to balance them if that's > what you were asking. > 41512 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:18:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: L: If you see a mirage that you identify as water the nonexistent error is the nonexistent water but the error (misidentification) really did arise. Similarly if a thought is identified as self the error is self identity. There is no self but the error conditions dukkha. Hi Larry The way I see it, the water never occurred and is a non-facter as far as existing or non-existing. But the delusion did occur and is a factor that alters mental states and physical ones if one "drags oneself" to the water only to be disappointed. I completely agree with your last two sentences. TG 41513 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana In a message dated 1/30/2005 9:07:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Hello TG As far as I understand, Nanananda’s approach is not very orthodox. Nevertheless, it is also an attempt to shed some light on the deep doctirnes in the Canon. As for parinibbana, he describes it as complete cessation of being, annihilation, or bhavanirodha. Here are some of his remarks on the lustrous mind: When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it penetrates through the net of nama-rupa out into infinitude and “viewpointsâ€? give place to an all-encompassing vision. In this respect it is described as “lustrous-all-roundâ€? and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a fading away of all objects, which earlier appeared to be “significantâ€? due to the bewitching gleam of consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as “ the cessation of the six sense-spheresâ€? (salayatana-nirodha). Elsewhere he writes “hence they (concepts) pale away and shrunk into insignificance, as do twilight stars on the advent of the moon, or the moon at sunrise. Yet, in its lustre, wisdom supersedes seven the sun, for the suttas tell us that even the latter pales before it. Then he quotes Udana 9: There, where earth, water, and wind no footing find….. In his opinion this state is anna–phala-samadhi, or anidassana-vinnana (the non-manifistative consciousness). “It is a gaze that is neither conscious nor non-conscious, … a gaze that knows no horizonâ€?. After the arahant dies this state ceases in parinibbana. With metta, Cosmique (Andre) Hi Cosmique This is fascinating. Thanks for posting it. If I understand it, this incompassing luminous vision is the "experience" of Nibbana when an arahat is experiencing it while alive? And all experiences come to cease at the time of death? TG 41514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India Dear Azita, thanks for your kind words, I tell Lodewijk. Not only you, everyone needs squillions of reminders. You can also help with these when you share now and then what you heard on the sound tracks Jon posted. Useful for everybody, including me, Nina. op 30-01-2005 11:31 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I need squillions of reminders just like this, and even then - > not enuff. > Its never enuff until arahat - I guess. 41515 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:07am Subject: Pilgrimage India 4 a Pilgrimage India 4 a Chapter 4. The Brahma Vihåras. Lodewijk read during our long bus trips the sutta of the ³Divine Messengers² (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch IV, § 35, translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158, B.P.S. Kandy). The Buddha spoke to the monks about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. A person who has immoral conduct in deeds, words and thoughts is reborn in hell. The warders take him and bring him before Yama the Lord (of Death). We read that they said: ³This man, O majesty, had no respect for father and mother, nor for recluses and priests, nor did he honour the elders of the family. May your majesty inflict due punishment on him.² Then, monks, King Yama questions that man, examines and addresses him concerning the first divine messemger: ³Did you not see, my good man, the first messenger appearing among men?² And he replies:²No, Lord, I did not see him.² Then King Yama says to him: ²But, my good man, did you not see among people a woman or a man, aged eighty, ninety or a hundred years, frail, bent like a roof gable, crooked, leaning on a stick, shakily going along, ailing, his youth and vigour gone, with broken teeth, with grey and scanty hair or none, wrinkled, with blotched limbs?² And the man replies, ³I have seen it, Lord.² Then King Yama says to him: ³My good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to old age and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind¹?² ³No Lord. I could not do it, I was negligent.² *** Nina 41516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Howard, well, you know. This was in the context of conditioned dhammas. Nina. op 30-01-2005 17:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > So, in that case, what object does nibbana experience? :-) 41517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, Do you have Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka? If you look under bala it gives many good explanations. I have a book with articles of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw and he is clear about rupas, conditions etc. But here the explanation as given below is somewhat complicated for me. Nina. op 30-01-2005 19:17 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Many thanks for the excerpt from the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's article 41518 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:24am Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Howard and Htoo - Howard wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, the Buddha attained Arahanthood from the base of > the 4th jhana. > Tep: The Buddha's Awakening process is described in MN 19 [Dvedhavitakka Sutta ] and may be summarized in the following 'arrow diagram': Abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, ill will and harmfulness (akusala vitakka) and pursuing only the opposite ones ---> Steadying his mind within (settled, unified and concentrated) ---> Persistence aroused and mindfulness established ---> Withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful mental qualities(akusala dhammas) ---> Entered and remained in the first jhana --->... 2nd, 3rd.... --->Entered and remained in the fourth jhana ---> Directed concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished mind toward the knowledge of recollecting past lives ---> ...the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings ---> ...the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. "I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [MN 19] So, Howard's memory was very good. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 1/29/05 7:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Are you sure? > > > > Are the last 4 jhanas also 'right concentration'? That is are the 4 > > arupa jhanas right concentration? > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > ========================= > I'm sure of almost nothing. I'm just reporting what I read the Buddha > as saying. I have also heard that the 4 higher jhanas are actually refinements > of the 4th jhana. > If I'm not mistaken, the Buddha attained Arahanthood from the base of > the 4th jhana. > > With metta, > Howard > 41519 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Nina - Thank you for your suggestion. The Nyanatiloka's definition of the five balas is that they are 'powers' of the 5 spirtual faculties (Indriya) by the fact "that they are unshakable by their opposites" and they represent "the aspect of firmness in the spiritual faculties". I am not sure what unskable and firmness mean in the practical sense. Nyanatiloka added, "According to A.V.15, the power becomes manifest in the 4 qualities of the Stream-winner, in the 4 right efforts, in the 4 foundations of mindfulness, in the 4 absorptions, (and) in the (full comprehension of the) 4 Noble Truths". So, Nina, how does the power become manifest in the four foundations of mindfulness, and especially in the "satipatthana", according to the three meanings you have explained to me earlier? Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Do you have Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka? If you look under bala it > gives many good explanations. > I have a book with articles of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw and he is clear about > rupas, conditions etc. But here the explanation as given below is somewhat > complicated for me. > Nina. > op 30-01-2005 19:17 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Many thanks for the excerpt from the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's article 41520 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:03pm Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon and Howard, > believe the Buddha taught conventional actions to be taken, and that doing these > constitutes Buddhist practice, and that they are the only way to > enlightenment. From following this thread I got general questions. Why can't both ways work? If one is able to see paramattha dhammas directly then they would work with that. If not they can work with pannatti and work toward paramattha. Also if someone is able to be completely within present moment during everyday activities then do that. If other people need quiet and dedicated sessions of meditation to get to that level then let them do that. Or mix and match the two as required. Why does it all have to be one way or another? - Kel 41521 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep/ Useful Information -Adhisila, etc. Hi Sarah (and Nina) - Thank you for your helpful effort to direct me to the message # 20248 (to Lars) and other Nina's booklets. I truly appreciate all this. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Nina - > > > > I am glad to read your message # 41165 which is a detailed > > explanation of things that were unclear to me in the past. The passage > > from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me > > another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What > > is the title of this publication? > ... > S:I think this is the message of Nina's below in full which you were > asking where the extract was from. You may also like to review some of the > earlier discussion in the thread with Lars which started at about > #20248.Please raise any points, comments or questions about anything you > find of special interest. You can find the booklet Nina refers to below > on: > http://www.vipassana.info/ > http://www.abhidhamma.org/, > or > http://www.zolag.co.uk/, > > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s if you put `lars' or `adhi' in the first search engine here, it will > take you to the 20,000s and then to the relevant posts too. > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > ============================ > > 20398 > > From: nina van gorkom > Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:04am > Subject: sila, samadhi, panna, no 2. > > > Dear Lars, > Now follows more from my "In Asoka's Footsteps". Note also what I wrote > about citta, concentration and higher concentration, adhicitta. You will (snipped) 41522 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Right Understanding, Right View, and Full Understanding Dear Nina - I have a few confusions about certain terms that I hope you might help me clear them out. N: Sammaa-nnaa.na is not used for "right understanding", but samma- ditthi is. Panna is of different levels and in different contexts specific terms are used. Vijjaa, amoha and naa.na are other words for pannaa, but all of them are amoha cetasika. T: But, Nina, the term "right understanding" in Anattalakkhana Sutta is different. Just review the following: "So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.' ..." I think the Pali for right understanding in the above passage is samma- panna with regard to yathabhuta-nana dassana, not samma-ditthi as you have said. The term right understanding in the samma-panna sense seems to be similar to the term "full understanding" (parinna). < Without (i) fully known, without comprehending the all, monks, without (ii)detaching himself from, without (iii) abandoning the all, a man is incapable of extinguishing dukkha...> ( from message # 40267) N (message #40375) : "Each element (except nibbana, which is the uncondiitoned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we may not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampajanna. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows". T: If right understanding (instead of right view) is the right translation for samma-ditthi, then I am not sure what the "firm understanding" and "direct understanding" above are supposed to mean. Are they related to "full understanding" (parinna), or not at all? Kindest regards, Tep ============ 41523 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana TGrand458@a... wrote: Hi Cosmique This is fascinating. Thanks for posting it. If I understand it, this incompassing luminous vision is the "experience" of Nibbana when an arahat is experiencing it while alive? And all experiences come to cease at the time of death? TG Dear TG, Unfortunately, you are exactly right. After the arahant’s death his/her luminous mind ceases. Therefore, parinibbana according to Nanananda is complete disappearance and nothingness. He does not make any reservations concerning parinibbana as some transcendental state. It is cessation of any being. With metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41524 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:05pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, > I) I assume that the "respective patipakkha dhammas" are those things > opposing to the five balas. For example, is tanha a patipakkha > dhamma to saddha bala and, if it is so, why? Yes, 5 opposites. Even kusala actions like dana are motivated by tanha in desiring to be born to higher realms. Full strength saddha is one that can overcome craving for any kind of existence. The beginning of that article goes into some details about it. Forgive me as I paste more stuff: It is bhavana-saddha, which has its genesis in the successful practice of kayagata-sati, such as out-breath and in-breath until the disappearance of the dissettlement and distraction of the mind, that can dispel tanha which takes pleasure and enjoyment in the three kinds of amisa. In the matter of the bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma, it is this saddha that should be acquired. It is only bhavana-viriya, such as being satisfied with the minimum of sleep, being always alert and active, being fearless, being bold and firm in living alone, being steadfast in mental advertence, that can dispel kosajja. In the matter of the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma, it is this bhavana-viriya that should be acquired. The antithesis of sati is the akusala kamma called mutthasacca. Mutthasacca means inability to become absorbed in the work of samatha- bhavana--such as in kayagata-sati--or in the work of vipassana-bhavana inability to concentrate, inability to control one's mind, and the wandering of thoughts to objects other than the object concentrated on. The pakati-sati that one possesses in its natal state from birth cannot dispel mutthasacca. It is only bhavana- sati that can dispel it. The antithesis of samadhi is the akusala kamma of vikkhepa[114] (restlessness of mind). It consists of the inability to concentrate, and of unquietness and restlessness of mind in the work of bhavana manasikara. It is the arising of thoughts on objects other than the object of concentration. It is the inability to control the mind and keep its attention fixed on one object. Pakati-samadhi cannot dispel that akusala kamma of vikkhepa. Only bhavana-samadhi can dispel it. The antithesis of panna is the akusala kamma of sammoha.[115] It consists of ignorance, lack of clarity, mistiness, and absence of light of the mind. It is the darkness that surrounds the mind. This sammoha cannot be dispelled by pakati-panna, nor by pariyatti-panna which may comprise a knowledge of the whole of the Ti-Pitaka. It is only bhavana- panna that has set up kayagata-sati which can gradually dispel sammoha. > II) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says that people who have saddha bala, viriya > bala, and sati bala can achieve samadhi in kaya-gatasati (e.g. > anapanasati). And because such people are weak in samadhi bala > and panna bala, he says they won't be successful in jhana and > vipassana-nana. That makes sense. But he does not mention if sati > bala is important for the success in jhana or vipassana-nana. > In Sayadaw's view is sati bala the same as satipatthana? They're all important right, need all 5. The scenario he's describing here is what if only 3 are strong and 2 remains weak. So sati is already there as a necessary condition, he's saying it's not sufficient. One also needs ability to STAY on object of meditation and SEE it with FULL clarity. In general he likes to use kayagatasati as a basic step of establishing satipatthana. He says after this step, you go to citta vissudhi, purification of the mind or samatha. He doesn't really use satipatthana beyond this step. > III) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says, "Some persons are strong in panna- bala. > They are learned in the Dhamma and the Pitakas. They are wise in > ... Of the five bala, viriya-bala and panna-bala are also > iddhipada. Hence, if these two bala are strong and co-ordinated, it > does not happen that one cannot rise up to the work of vipassana > because of the weakness of the other three bala". > > Does the venerable mean that Abhidhamma and Pitaka scholars must > have both viriya bala and panna bala, if they want to "rise up to the > work of vipassana"? But, again, why is sati bala not included? Here's definition on what iddhipadas are http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6d.htm So only viriya and panna are in iddhipada and indriya/bala. His main point is when these two are strong, others have to come along due to the strength of primary two. Essentially if you ever tried to practice 18-24 hrs a day for a few days, you'll see how viriya really just establishes sati. It becomes so automatic and natural, there's no longer a need to 'do', it just is aware. Once sati is continuous like that, samadhi just comes along because it gets momentum from that continuity. During a retreat, one is putting full effort while mundane activities like eating or showering. To some extend, walking sessions too by doing it without stoping for one hour straight. Then when you go to sitting sessions, there's a big difference. The mind tendency is now to stay on the object and remain aware continuously leading to strong samadhi. > (IV) "As far as ordinary sambojjhahga are concerned, from the moment > kayagata-sati is set up, the dhamma such as sati are known as > sambojjhanga". > > Is sati-sambojjhanga at the higher level (closer to Arahat-magga) than > satipatthana? No, i wouldn't say that. Sambojjhangas are pretty close to all the corresponding magga and phala cittas. It is still ordinary for someone still working toward any magga. I guess you can call these factors in magga citta itself as supramundane. - Kel 41525 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:58:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Dear TG, Unfortunately, you are exactly right. After the arahant’s death his/her luminous mind ceases. Therefore, parinibbana according to Nanananda is complete disappearance and nothingness. He does not make any reservations concerning parinibbana as some transcendental state. It is cessation of any being. With metta, Cosmique Hi Cosmique My understanding is that it is only considered unfortunate from our "clinging to self and craving for continuance" point of view. When it is fully understood that conditioned states are mere suffering, then I don't think 'unfortunate' will apply. If experience is no longer seen as pleasant, but is only seen as painful; then the end of experience would probably look pretty good. Unfortunately (a new unfortunately), it probably does not take on that viewpoint with much strength until we are very very close to being fully enlightened. Which makes letting go such a hard thing to do. And why the power of impermanence and no-self insight and reflecting on foulness and suffering are so important. TG 41526 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Hi Joop, I'll attempt to give a simple model that I have for workings of kamma. Htoo will give his own I'm sure. > But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens > or hundreds or billions of years ? > I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can never > be reborn in higher sentient beings. No, unfortunately not. Every being carries that kamma baggage until it has a chance to give results. This baggage is made out of middle 5 out of 7 javana cittas from every kusala/akusala vithis. This is of course until one becomes an ariya then the rebirth quality kamma into lower realms are eliminated but note lesser intensity kammas remain. Now I'll go into a bit of detail so bear with me. Let's say someone committed patricide or some heinous crime in a previous life (not current). We know there's millions or billions of akusala vithi for such act. Exactly one vithi (5 cittas together) is used for rebirth-linking for that person to be born into hell then it's given result so it's gone. The power of that vithi will determine what realm of hell and how long the life expectancy is etc. Now the remaining million will act as "support" kamma. They'll keep that person there in that realm, keep on suffering and getting used up in the process (possibly lower intensity vithis). They also might cause that person to repeatedly reborn into that realm, using up even more vithis/kamma. Now let's also say that person built stupas for some Buddha in yet another previous life. They have another million of kusala kammas. Those kusala kammas might give result to lessen the suffering in hell existence. One example is being a pet in America. Some of them have truly luxurious lives but alas they are still in animal world without a chance to get dhamma. So the kusala vithis can act as "interferring" kamma to lessen the blow of akusala kamma. They can also act as "destructive" kamma to put an end to the existence given by akusala kamma too. Regardless of what mode they give result in, they are used up. Htoo mentioned in his dhamma threads of different kammas competiting for a chance to give resultant. When they don't win, they'll go back to latent stages. The winner is used up as I said. > And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for it, > automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or > shorter); or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when > conditions for that falling away occur ? Or means 'used up": only > when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of > it? Kamma as soon as it's given the result, falls away The effect of the result remains, ie this body/existence. The remaining kammas will either prolong or shorten that effect. - Kel 41527 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana Hi TG, i agree. i am just joking about "unfortunately". with metta, cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41528 From: Illusion Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) - Definition of Pali Words For those of you,including myself :), who do not understand the meaning of these pali words posted by Htoo Naing in the Dhamma Thread, here are the definitions that I looked up in the Buddhist Dictionary. Hopefully it is beneficial. MARANASANNA-JAVANA: marana meaning "death" means the disappearance of the vital faculty confined to a single life-time. But strictly speaking, death is continuously occuring through repeated dissolution and vanishing of each momentar physical-mental combination, so it takes place every moment. (more info on momentary existence, see Visuddhi Magga VIII) In the absolute sense, beings have only a very short moment to live, life lasting as long as a single moment of consciousness lasts. Just as a cart-wheel, whether rolling or whether at a standstill, at all times only rests on a single point of its periphery, even so the life of a living being lasts only for the duration of a single moment of consciousness. As soon as that moment ceases, the being also ceases. For it is said: 'The being of the past moment of consciousness has lived, but does not live now, nor will it live in future. The being of the future moment has not yet lived, nor does it live now, but it will live in the future. The being of the present moment has not lived, it does live just now, but it will not live in the future.' VIPAKA: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action. (Note: kamma meaning action, so the action we perform now does not depend on the past kamma) CUTI-CITTA: 'death-consciousness', lit. 'departing consciousness', is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-kicca q.v.). NIMITTA: mark, sign; image; target, object; cause, condition. Sign of (previous) kamma' (kamma-nimitta) and 'sign of (the future) destiny' (gati-nimitta); these arise as mental objects of the last karmic consciousness before death (maranásanna-kamma; s. karma, III,3). PATISANDHI: lit. 'reunion, relinking', i.e. rebirth, is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-kicca, q.v.). It is a karma-resultant type of consciousness and arises at the moment of conception i.e. with the forming of new life in the mother's womb. Immediately afterwards it sinks into the subconscious stream of existence (bhavangasota, q.v.), and conditioned thereby ever and ever again corresponding states of subconsciousness arise. Thus it is really rebirth-consciousness that determines the latent character of a person. This consciousness has not come from the previous existence to this present existence, yet that it has come into existence by means of conditions included in the previous existence. This fact may be illustrated by various things, such as the echo, the light of a lamp, the impression of a seal, or the image produced by a mirror. For just as the resounding of the echo is conditioned by a sound, etc., and nowhere a transmigration of sound has taken place, just so it is with this consciousness. []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} (Maya Putra) "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 41529 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > Jon, I'm really confused by your position. You seem to be saying that >a concept exists at the moment of its mental conception, but that it has no >prior existence. > Yes, I can see how my post could be read that way, but in fact I was using the term 'exist' without agreeing that that was the case, since the focus of the post was TG's reference to prior/previous 'existence' of concepts before the moment of their becoming object of mind-consciousness. > So what? That is precisely the case for any citta as well, is >it not? All of a sudden I seem to be seeing you as taking concepts to be actual >momentary phenomena. Am I misunderstanding you? > > Sorry for the confusion. No, if something was an actual momentary phenomena then it would not fall within the meaning of the term 'concept'. Jon 41530 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > Well, the point is that of course there may well be phenomena/events > >arising outside of experience, but they are, in principle, unexperienced - >being outside of experience. We can hypothesize such, but if they do exist, we can >never know it. I see the Bahiya Sutta and especially the Sabba Sutta as >making exactly this point. > > You say here that 'there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of experience' which are unexperienced. However, I was asking about a statement you made in relation to presently experienced phenomena, to the effect that these phenomena 'are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object'. I was wondering what was the basis for that statement, (and it's implication that those phenomena are created by the consciousness, if that is also implied). Jon 41531 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana In a message dated 1/30/2005 1:55:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Hi TG, i agree. i am just joking about "unfortunately". with metta, cosmique Got it :-). 41532 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hi Sarah, and all For some reason, Sarah, the following stuck me as a little too discouraging of ways of making progress. > ...and remember all those discussions in India (like in the Gangtok hotel > garden) where we were reminded that it's useless to think about whether > the cittas that have gone already are kusala or akusala OK, I can see this. Useless to dwell on them, or regret them. But I think there can be a kind of mental noting. It happened. There was akusala. Now it's gone. I think we can take note in this way at times, as long as we don't become too intentional about. If the noting happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Also, we know how important it is to know the jati of a citta. If we don't look at what has happened, briefly, how do we develop our understanding of whether something is/was kamma or vipaka? >or to try and be > aware of them when they arise, How about stressing the importance of not trying to be aware of them *before* they arise. I mean, not going out into the world with the intention "I'm going to be aware of my akusala cittas today" which would be about self seeking control. But if an awareness of them arises, we should try to be aware, in that moment. If not, what is the Buddha's all-important "heedfulness" (I forget the Pali) refer to? What does being heedful mean if it is not trying to be aware. Yes, we will be aware if there are conditions for it, and only if there are conditions for it, but that doesn't mean awareness is a completely passive process, as we know. I know there is great danger in being too intentional about things, but the above just strikes me as discouraging. I know if I talked with Kh Sujin it is what she would tell me, though. >because it's all just going to be about > *self* once more - clinging again to a 'purer me'. But we do want to purify the flow of cittas, ever so gradually, don't we. That's not necessarily about "me." But being aware of akusala cittas when and immediately after (well, with my degree of insight it can only be immediately after, at the soonest) conditions a weakening of the akusala roots, ever so slightly, which purifies the citta flow ever so slightly, doesn't it? >Far more important is > the development of understanding of present dhammas as not-self with > detachment from whatever is conditioned. Yes. And if the awareness rises due to conditions in our daily life, there needn't be self involved - even if we take note of it (the awareness) or so it seems to me. >Namas have to be known as namas > and rupas as rupas over and over again. Not as easy as some would believe. > > Yes, when we're 'fussy' about what arises, it shows the attachment to self > again. Fussy suggest being obsessive, but if we're concerned in a moderate way it shows devotion to the Buddha's teaching (he taught us to be concenred) and not necessarily attachment to self. I just felt a bit discouraged by the above. Yes, there is great, subtle danger in thinking we can take control of cittas, and in predicting awareness by doing certain kinds of practices or having certain kinds of intentions, but there *is* awareness that arises, and even after the fact I think it can help us. I mean, don't you ever reflect back on incidents and see things more clearly thanks to this reflection? > Hope you're recovered from your surgery, Azita. Me too, Azita. Metta, Phil 41533 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Jon: "Does a sign make errors, or is it the mind that makes the sign that makes the error? If the latter, then the problem you describe below does not arise. Jon L: "Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently unconditioned is conditioned." Hi Jon, I'm not following you; can you elaborate? It might be better to say a sign _is_ an error and it arises according to conditions. I probably should have said 'interpretation of signs' is just a sequence of signs that arises according to conditions. There is no interpreter. Larry 41534 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:38pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep (and Kel), ------------------ T: > The unfinished discussion between you two is very interesting to me. ------------------ Thank you, it is very interesting to me too. Kel thinks we should agree to disagree, but I don't agree with that at all. :-) ----------------------- T: > The concept of 'no self' seems to be intertwined with goal/direction/time and several other things like ultimate truth (paramattha) and conventional truth (vohara sacca). Please allow me to get involved in the discussion, O.K.? ------------------------ Please do. Anatta is certainly intertwined with those topics - as it is with every other topic of Dhamma study. ----------------------- T: Right now, at this cross-section in time, there exist Ken H., Kel and other 'beings'. ----------------------- I wouldn't say that, but I would agree that 'non-existence of beings' only makes sense when we know about paramattha dhammas. It is the dhammas - not the beings - that possess the characteristic, anatta. --------------------------------------- T: > If Ken does not exist, why does he care to practice the Dhamma in order to understand the 'sabba dhamma' in the present moment? -------------------------------------- That point can be made without relying on the existence of living beings. They and their 'caring to practise Dhamma' can all be described in terms of nama and rupa. ------------------- T: > If Ken is not concerned with the eradication of cravings (so that he may be free from the samsara in the future: the hidden goal of his practice), then why is he trying to practice the Dhamma right now? -------------------- Not only is it unnecessary to see reality in this conventional way, it can also be misleading. Like you, I must have accumulated some tendencies for Dhamma study, but is it accurate to say I am "concerned with the eradication of cravings (so that I may be free from the samsara in the future)?" 99.99 per cent of the time I am concerned with pleasure - and total cessation doesn't appeal to me at all! The Dhamma doesn't tell me to be ashamed of my worldling reality or to want to replace it with something more commendable. All it requires is that the present reality is understood. ------------------- T: > I think Kel is using the 'goal' as a conventional truth. Remember the Bodhisatta's goal to become a Buddha? ----------- Yes, the Bodhisatta's vow expressed the greatest possible goal requiring the greatest possible sacrifice. But even that must be understood in terms of fleeting, unsatisfactory, non-self dhammas. Kind regards, Ken H 41535 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/30/05 2:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > well, you know. This was in the context of conditioned dhammas. > Nina. ================== Okay. Point taken! :-) Actually, the way I usually distinguish nama from rupa (for my own benefit) is that nama is what is knowable *only* through the mind door. (The only trouble with that, unfortunately, is the water element, which, according to Abhidhamma, is a rupa known only through the mind door. However, if there is going to be an exception to a definition, I would rather it be the water element that is the exception than nibbana. :-) With metta, Howard > op 30-01-2005 17:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >So, in that case, what object does nibbana experience? :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41536 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Nina, Do you see a difference between "feeling experiences tangible data" and "feeling is an experience conditioned by tangible data"? I think you are using a subject/object model in your understanding of the role of objects. This leads to a belief in self, as you know. If one nama cognizes another dhamma, then that nama is playing the role of subject, a doer. I agree that some of the wording of abhidhamma suggests a subject/object model, but I think we have to reason our way around that obstacle and see it in a different way. This is what commentators do ;-) Larry 41537 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Kel (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/30/05 3:06:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, kelvin_lwin@y... writes: > From following this thread I got general questions. Why can't > both ways work? If one is able to see paramattha dhammas directly > then they would work with that. If not they can work with pannatti > and work toward paramattha. Also if someone is able to be > completely within present moment during everyday activities then do > that. If other people need quiet and dedicated sessions of > meditation to get to that level then let them do that. Or mix and > match the two as required. Why does it all have to be one way or > another? > > - Kel > > ==================== Well, of course. But the "paramatthic person" ypu speak of is quite a rarity, and doesn't have far to go. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41538 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Hi Nina, In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures nibbling on the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare this to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in the same sutta. This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or subtle consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to all the cetasikas that arise? Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html 41539 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. - I clearly understand and agree with you about the following (basic) concepts: 1) the dhammas possess the characteristic called 'Anatta', because of 'sabba dhamma anatta' (including the Nibbana); 2) all beings and their desires (to practice or do whatever) are describable in terms of rupa and nama. The comment that most of the time you are concerned with pleasure is beside the point! :-) It is the lack of penetrating insights that makes the continuous streams of arising/passing away of realities look and feel like there is a self (atta) involved-- it is an illusion. KH: All it requires is that the present reality is understood. T: If you mean 'understood' in terms of adhi-panna, then it will be a long while for me before the ultimate realities are seen the way they really are. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Kel), > > ------------------ > T: > The unfinished discussion between you two is very interesting > to me. > ------------------ > > Thank you, it is very interesting to me too. Kel thinks we should > agree to disagree, but I don't agree with that at all. :-) > (snipped) 41540 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? Hi all I've been curious about this passage from an Ayya Khema Dhamma talk: "All happenings act as triggers for us - but there are only two reactions - equanimity and craving." I also seem to remember learning that there is no dosa that is not preceded by lobha, or words to that effect. So, let's say I'm walking down the street and someone shoves me. Of course, a reaction of aversion will quickly arise. It would seem to the conventional mind that it is this aversion which is the first response. But in fact it is preceded ever so briefly by lobha? Attachment to what? Calm? Metta? Not being shoved by passing strangers? That's a crude example, but... Is dosa always at least partially conditioned by lobha that precedes it? Metta, Phil 41541 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 4 a your messengers? Hi all >The Buddha spoke to the monks > about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. It seems to me that there are also messengers that serve to teach us about the Second Noble Truth, about clinging. Let me tell you about a messenger I think about a lot. When I was about 9 I was walking along a street with my mother and I saw an old man on a stoop (front steps) eating an ice-cream cone. I can still remember suddenly being overcome by a strong sense of compassion for him. He wasn't *that* old - the compassion was related to the sight of him eating ice cream. Why would a little kid feel compassion instead of desire to eat ice cream? Until I was in my late 20s, I never had any similar experiences. But I think about him a lot. I think he was a messenger in some way, and that moment of insight into the way people crave comfort in a kind of lovable way conditioned my current interest in Brahma-Viharas. I still feel copmpassion and affection when I see people eating junk food or drinking alcohol. People are so lovable, so pathetic - myself included, of course - in the way they seek comfort and reassurance, often in ways that are bad for them. Do you all have certain messengers that stick out in your mind? Metta, Phil p.s Seems to be a lot of ice-cream talk here. Rob K's story about being so uptight about lobha early on that he resisted eating ice- cream, Rob M feeding ice cream to the monks.... 41542 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, Well, you don't need to defend yourself necessarily, but I was just reacting to what you wrote. I know it seemed kinda strong but I don't mince words ;-). If you state things along the lines of "Oh, I once thought the suttas were advocating conventional actions and then I learned the error of my ways" you are likely to get a response from me. (For the same reason I am always after your wife for her "Oh, I once thought that meditation was helpful and then I learned the error of my ways" stance ;-)) Jon: I don't see the kind of dichotomy you do. James: I know you don't, that is the problem. But the Abhidhamma and the Suttas do have two different approaches. Allow me to quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi to demonstrate that I am not the only one who sees this: "This difference in technique between the two methods also influences their respective terminologies. In the Suttas the Buddha regularly makes use of conventional language (voharavacana) and accepts conventional truth (sammutisacca), truth expressed in terms of entities that do not possess ontological ultimacy but can still be legitimately referred to them. Thus in the Suttas the Buddha speaks of "I" and "you," of "man" and "woman," of living beings, persons, and even self as though they were concrete realities. The Abhidhamma method of exposition, however, rigorously restricts itself to terms that are valid from the standpoint of ultimate truth (paramatthasacca): dhammas, their characteristics, their functions, and their relations. Thus in the Abhidhamma all such conceptual entities provisionally accepted in the Suttas for purposes of meaningful communication are resolved into their ontological ultimates, into bare mental and material phenomena that are impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen, empty of any abiding self or substance." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html Jon: I'm afraid I have no idea which of the suttas topics I've been involved in lately you have in mind here, but if you'd care to give an example or two, I'd be happy to respond (defend myself ;-)). James: Nope ;-) You made the generalization first. If you care to give some specific examples of when you "saw the light", so to speak, then I can respond to those. Metta, James 41543 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry When you talk about perversion of preception, perversion only happen if and only if sanna is associated with the akusala roots. Sanna by itself is neuter, only becomes kusala or akusala due to its association with the roots. It is not the cause of error, it is the arising of lobha and moha associated with sanna that is the cause of the error. Similarly a Buddha and a worlding see the same concept, why would a Buddha react with wisdom and me 99.9% of the time with ignorance. Think about it ;-) Cheers Ken O 41544 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/30/05 5:34:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Jon, I'm really confused by your position. You seem to be saying that > >a concept exists at the moment of its mental conception, but that it has no > > >prior existence. > > > > Yes, I can see how my post could be read that way, but in fact I was > using the term 'exist' without agreeing that that was the case, since > the focus of the post was TG's reference to prior/previous 'existence' > of concepts before the moment of their becoming object of > mind-consciousness. > > > >So what? That is precisely the case for any citta as well, is > >it not? All of a sudden I seem to be seeing you as taking concepts to be > actual > >momentary phenomena. Am I misunderstanding you? > > > > > > Sorry for the confusion. No, if something was an actual momentary > phenomena then it would not fall within the meaning of the term 'concept'. > > Jon > ===================== Whew! (Expression of relief!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41545 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:39pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, Ken O: Nope, Buddha did practise jhanas as I said in MN titled "the Noble Search" from the brahim masters. James: Nope, the Buddha didn't practice the jhanas, the practiced the immaterial attainments (I will explain the difference below). I think that maybe you should re-read the sutta you are referencing; maybe quoting from it, when you want to prove something, would help your memory. Ken O: If the first jhana he attained during childhood is with wisdom, then he will be at least a stream entrant at that time. James: Who says so? The first jhana isn't a requirement for sotapanna as far as I know (it seems that list of requirements for sotapanna just keeps growing and growing! ;-) KenO: The jhanas he remember is the same he has been practising for countless lives, mundane jhanas – of no use - only lead to kusala birth. James: The sutta doesn't mention that, it only mentions his remembrance of his childhood experience of jhana. If you have textual support that he practiced the jhanas in previous lifetimes, I would be very interested to read that. In other words, please quote that textual support. KenO: The four jhanas are listed while the immaterial jhanas are not listed because any being during enlightment will experience the material jhanas (If my memory does not fail me). James: Huh? That sutta was about samadhi (concentration) and the four possible practices and outcomes. The immaterial attainments (sometimes called immaterial jhanas, even though they aren't jhanas) are not listed because they are not attained through concentration practice. Again, they are not jhanas. KenO: hmmmm, maybe you like to quote the text to prove that I am getting old and my memory is getting bad (ahhh impermance). James: Actually, I shouldn't have to quote any text because you are the first one to say that the Buddha's former teachers taught him the jhanas. I said they didn't. Therefore, it is your responsibility to show that they did because you made the original argument. However, since you seem to have an allergy to quoting material ;-)), I will do it: "Having thus gone forth in search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I went to Alara Kalama and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Kalama, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'… 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness… "In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.'… I went to Uddaka Ramaputta and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Uddaka, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'… So I went to Uddaka and said, 'To what extent did Rama declare that he had entered & dwelled in this Dhamma?' When this was said, Uddaka declared the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception…. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left. James: Therefore, you should be able to see from the quoted material that the Buddha didn't learn the four jhanas from his former teachers, and he didn't even learn all four immaterial attainments, he only learned `dimension of nothingness' and `dimension of neither perception or non-perception". Now, what is the difference between the jhanas and the immaterial attainments? First, as I have shown, the jhanas rely heavily on concentration while the immaterial attainments do not. This is how the Buddha described to achieve the immaterial attainments: "Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One. "Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, thinking, 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One…etc. for the other four immaterial attainments. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn026.html James: Therefore, the immaterial attainments require the meditator to remove his mind from the perceptions of the body and to project his mind to the realm of infinite space by thinking "Infinite Space", to the realm of infinite consciousness by thinking `Infinite Consciousness'.etc. for the other immaterial attainments. Therefore, the jhanas are not required for the immaterial attainments- yet the immaterial attainments can be achieved from the fourth jhana because it is while in the fourth jhana that perceptions of the body cease through concentration. The other significant difference is that the jhanas produce pleasure while the immaterial attainments do not. The Buddha hadn't practiced them previously because he was an ascetic and ascetics were not supposed to experience pleasure. Metta, James 41546 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/30/05 5:39:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > You say here that 'there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of > experience' which are unexperienced. However, I was asking about a > statement you made in relation to presently experienced phenomena, to > the effect that these phenomena 'are created at that very moment of > consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness > of which they are the object'. I was wondering what was the basis for > that statement, (and it's implication that those phenomena are created > by the consciousness, if that is also implied). > > Jon > ================== The *experienced* object (*as* experienced object) was created at the moment of its being experienced, with the object and the awareness of it co-arising. As to whether or not there is an unexperienced something-or-other "underlying" the object of awareness (i.e., underlying the seen sight, heard sound, or tasted flavor, or whatever) at the time of the arising of that object of awareness or preceding it is unknowable, and, in my opinion, is pragmatically ignorable. But I was not addressing an imagined underlying something-or-other. I was speaking of the experiential object, and an object of experience is mutually dependent on and co-arising with the experience of it. I hope I'm making myself clear on this. It isn't easy to do do. Oh, one more thing. I was *not* implying that consciousness creates its objects. I see consciousness and its object as mutually dependent and co-arising. If anything, I give more weight to the experienced object - which I prefer to call "experiential content" - than I do to the experiencing of it, because I consider the experiencing of an object to be merely experiential presence of the object. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41547 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 4 a your messengers? Hi, Phil - No comments below by me, Phil. I just wanted to let you know that I think this is a perfectly lovely post of yours!! Beautiful and moving. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/30/05 8:36:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > > Hi all > > >The Buddha spoke to the monks > >about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. > > It seems to me that there are also messengers that serve to teach > us about the Second Noble Truth, about clinging. > > Let me tell you about a messenger I think about a lot. > > When I was about 9 I was walking along a street with my mother and > I saw an old man on a stoop (front steps) eating an ice-cream cone. I > can still remember suddenly being overcome by a strong sense of > compassion for him. He wasn't *that* old - the compassion was related > to the sight of him eating ice cream. Why would a little kid feel > compassion instead of desire to eat ice cream? Until I was in my late > 20s, I never had any similar experiences. But I think about him a lot. > I think he was a messenger in some way, and that moment of insight > into the way people crave comfort in a kind of lovable way > conditioned my current interest in Brahma-Viharas. I still feel > copmpassion and affection when I see people eating junk food or > drinking alcohol. People are so lovable, so pathetic - myself > included, of course - in the way they seek comfort and reassurance, > often in ways that are bad for them. > > Do you all have certain messengers that stick out in your mind? > > Metta, > Phil /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41548 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken, If this is the way it is I guess I made a mistake. Btw, the difference between the Buddha's perception and yours is nibbana. They aren't the same. Larry ------------------------- Ken: "Hi Larry When you talk about perversion of preception, perversion only happen if and only if sanna is associated with the akusala roots. Sanna by itself is neuter, only becomes kusala or akusala due to its association with the roots. It is not the cause of error, it is the arising of lobha and moha associated with sanna that is the cause of the error. Similarly a Buddha and a worlding see the same concept, why would a Buddha react with wisdom and me 99.9% of the time with ignorance. Think about it ;-) Cheers Ken O" 41549 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? In a message dated 1/30/2005 5:25:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: Hi all I've been curious about this passage from an Ayya Khema Dhamma talk: "All happenings act as triggers for us - but there are only two reactions - equanimity and craving." I also seem to remember learning that there is no dosa that is not preceded by lobha, or words to that effect. So, let's say I'm walking down the street and someone shoves me. Of course, a reaction of aversion will quickly arise. It would seem to the conventional mind that it is this aversion which is the first response. But in fact it is preceded ever so briefly by lobha? Attachment to what? Calm? Metta? Not being shoved by passing strangers? That's a crude example, but... Is dosa always at least partially conditioned by lobha that precedes it? Metta, Phil Hi Phil There are three types of craving that arise due to three types of feeling... 1) Craving for sensual pleasure ... which arises during neither-pleasurable-nor-unpleasureable feeling 2) Craving for continuance ... which arises during pleasurable feeling. 3) Craving for dis-continuance ... which arises during unpleasant feeling. Craving has three aspects, the last one listed being aversion. No need to think of lobha as somehow "jumping in front." TG 41550 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 112 - Concentration/ekaggataa (h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Some people believe that in the development of vipassanå they should try to focus on particular nåmas and rúpas in order to know them as they are. If concentration accompanies a citta with desire for result it is wrong concentration. So long as one has not become a sotåpanna ( the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment) the inclination to wrong practice has not been eradicated. We may still be led by desire and then we are on the wrong way. When a nåma or rúpa appears through one of the six doors there can be mindfulness of it and then, at that moment, right understanding of that reality can be developed. Right understanding is accompanied by right concentration ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41551 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana Hi TG & Cosmique, I wrote a series of posts ages ago with lots of quotes from the commentary to the Udana on the verses you are discussing. (see Useful Posts in files – Udana-Nibbana). You may find the quotes helpful for reference or comparison. This is from one of them #8908: ================================= S:> Udana VIII.1 > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... S:> note that in the Masefield translation and Com notes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) ******************** (p.1012 Udana com): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these lines are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of the elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even so, all ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are also absent.< ======================================== Metta, Sarah ======== 41552 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:15pm Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Robert: So its useful to know what wrong concentration is: > > In the Dhammasangani under Akusala dhammas > > 386- What is the power of concentration? > > That which is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, > > unshakeableness, non-distraction, imperturabilty, tranquility of > > mind, the faculty of concentration, power of concentration, WRONG > > concentration- this is at that time the power of concentration. ==================================== > > > Phillip: Not quite clear about what this is saying. Surely not that > stability of mind etc always involve wrong power of concentration? It > is saying that stability of mind etc that result from concentration > is akusala if it's WRONG concentration? But the passage above doesn't > make it clear to me what wrong concentration is. ============== Dear Phil, it is simply describing the characteristics of miccha samadhi, wrong concentration. One can concentrate on the breath, for instance, and eventually feel very tranquil with strong concentration- but have developed only Miccha Samadhi associated with subtle lobha. That is one reason why objects such a death (maranasati) are recommended:?@meditation on breath is subtle and can easily be done with attachment, whereas the object of death is not so refined and does not encourage attachment (although of course it can). ----------------------------------------------- > I guess many meditators in the West (especially) mistake this nice > and peaceful feeling for a kind of liberating wisdom. Defilements > have been supressed, so there is a sense of having cut through the > cloud of ignorance, but that's not the case. When the concentration > is removed, the defilements will spring back up with the same force > they had before (when conditions are there) and perhaps even > fortified because there is added ignorance. =============== here you are talking about genuine right concentartion at the level of samatha, which does supress defilements. BUT the dhammasangani is talking about pure lobha, desire. The defilements are not supressed, they are being increased during miccha samadhi. Robertk 41553 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. Dear Htoo, Nina & Steve, I thought your discussion on these conditions was very helpful. A good post from Htoo and excellent qus from Stever and clarifications from Nina. Look forward to more joint efforts. I agree with Nina, U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations (PTS)is an extremely helpful book and not too difficult to follow at all. Metta, Sarah > N: The condition which is sahajaata-paccaya concerns many dhammas, > and the mutuality condition only a few. > As to c, there is a differentiation. At the first moment of our life, > three dasakas, groups of rupa arise at the same time as rebirth- > consciousness, but only the heart-base and the rebirth-consciousness > condition one another by way of mutuality condition. It cannot be > said of the bodysense or sex decad that arise at that time.The 4 > great elements are related to each other by way of sahajata paccaya > and mutuality but as to the derived rupas that arise together with > these,there is no mutuality relation between the four great Elements > and the derived rupas.You may like to get Guide to conditional > Relations, U Narada. > Nina. 41554 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:00am Subject: Comments invited Dear Group, A good friend on another list asked me four questions - 1. >who do you think you are? 2. >who do you think this "self" is? 3. >where do "you" come from? 4. >where will "you" go when you depart? I would be sincerely interested in anyone's reply regarding my current understanding, with respect to the Buddha's teachings, and their own views as well: CJF: "1. I note that you requested the reply to be in my own words - 'not what some scribe wrote down 2000+ years ago'. But ... whatever each of us is, is merely the accumulation, the consequence, of everything that has been experienced before. Our current personalities, our ethics, our political beliefs, the way we see the world, our spiritual beliefs are all conditioned by, and are a direct result, of our past - the parents, the family, the ethnic group, the nation, the time period into which we are born, and what has happened to us since birth. It also depends on the genetic inheritance of this material form, this body, and its capabilities both mental and physical. So ... I could recite a litany covering all of the above concerning myself, but still not be aware of all of the main influences that formed "me". 2. and 3. I once believed in a soul, an awareness, who was eternal, who inhabited this body like a letter in an envelope. I accepted the whole X-tian deal. I was baptised, went to sunday school, church, youth groups, taught sunday school in my turn, married a X-tian, worked hard to pay for private X-tian schooling for my son and daughter who began to repeat the above pattern. I was hazy about how I came to be, but accepted the theistic view of an omnipotent being who created all. I don't believe that now. I believe this 'self' is nothing substantial, merely a temporary combination of temporary phenomena - never static, always changing, nothing that stays. 4. I don't think there is a departing of anything - the body of Christine will die, the mental factors of Christine will extinguish. Nothing of Christine will remain. As to what happens after that ... currently I go along with what I think the Buddha taught - that the energy of craving and unextinguished kamma/vipaka will instantly seek a new physical vehicle, not necessarily human. Nothing that can be called another version of Christine, nothing of which it could be said 'this is mine, this I am, this is my self'." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 41555 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Htoo, Sorry for delays as usual. I've snipped your points where there's no controversy and we're in agreement (just leavin a little for context). --- htootintnaing wrote: > 1) kamma condition or 'kamma paccaya' > > There are 2 kinds of condition in kamma paccaya. They are > > a) sahajaata kamma paccaya and > b) naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya <...> > Naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya > > a) causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma are > > 14 akusala cetasikas and 19 sobhanasaadhaarana cetasikas all > together 33 cetasikas and these are cetasikas that arisen in the past > when kusala or akusala were being done. > > b) conditioned dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma is > > 36 vipaka cittas and their associated cetasikas, all cittaja rupas > that derived from these 36 vipaka cittas except 2 vinatti rupas and > patisanbdhi kammaja rupas. > > c) conditionality is called 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. > > If you are thinking with akusala cittas then there are akusala > cetasikas along with those akusala cittas and they condition later > dhamma as 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. This does not need to be > kamma patha. .... S: ...and when it is not kamma patha (even partial factors), I understand they are conditioning later akusala cittas and cetasikas by pakatupanissaya (natural decisive support condition), not kamma condition. .... > Pakati-upanissaya paccaya or pakatu-panissaya paccaya or natural > decisive support condition has a wide range of conditions. Among them > there include raga or lust, dosa or hatred, moha or ignorance, maana > or conceit, ditthi or wrong-view, pattana or expectation are some > part of natural decisive support condition. ... S: Yes, exactly. ..... > > The difference is that kamma paccaya is related to akusala and kusala > dhamma when it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. If cetana cetasika > arise along with kiriya cittas then those 19 cetasikas > (sobhasaadhaarana cetasikas) do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma > paccaya because it is kiriya and not akusala or kusala. ... S: We’re not discussing kiriya cittas here. With regard to the accumulation of kusala and akusala, how do you differentiate between these two conditions if you say none of the kamma patha factors need be present for naanaakkhanika-kamma-paccaya (asychronous kamma condition) to operate? …. .When you are > just thinking with kusala or akusala then it is not kiriya and it > does have kamma effect and it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. It > does not need to be kamma patha to be repeated. …. S: To be repeated or accumulated, it doesn’t need kamma patha, but I don’t think this is by kamma paccaya. The cetana and all other factors are accumulating by pakatupanissaya and other conditions, I believe. As I asked before, otherwise, why differentiate between kilesa vatta (round of defilements) and kamma vatta (round of kamma)? …. > S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. > I'm curious to read this thread! > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. I was just refering to the effect. Karuna just lasts a moment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I’d have to think about this. So you’re saying that when the Buddha’s feet ‘came out’ after his parinibbana, it was by the effect of his previous karuna, not the effect of Maha Kassapa’s cittas? Maybe a combination – this was only for Maha Kassapa. This is what it says in the comy to the Parinibbana Sutta (just before the funeral pyre caught fire by itself), ‘ “Then the Venerable Mahaakassapa went to Kusinaaraa …he saluted with his head”: the elder, they say, having circumambulated the pyre, noticed on careful observation: “Here are the feet. “ Then, standing near the feet, he attained the fourth jhana which is the basis of intuitive knowledge (abhi~n~naa-paada) and emerged from it. Then he determined, “Let the feet of the One of the TenPowers, decorated with the mark of a wheel with a thousand spokes, split in two the hundered pairs of cloth with layers of cotton, and the golden vessel, and the pyre of sandalwood, and be placed on my head.” At his resolve, the feet emerged splitting in two those pairs of cloths and the other things, like the full moon coming out from amidst the clouds. The elder stretched out his hands like blossoming red lotuses wide, and tightly grasped the gold-coloured feet of the Teacher as far as the ankles, and put them on his noble head. So it is said, “uncovering his feet, he worshipped the feet of the Blessed One with his head”.’ …. > 2 teams of forces that support the king citta. Obviously saddha is > like a leader and I appointed him as a commander (army and navy) and > appointed in both teams. 12 cetasikas are easy to group. From 7 when > saddha is removed as it is already appointed as general or admiral > there left 6 cetasikas and I group them into 2 of 3 cetasikas. These > idea just came as a flash of light and I caught it and jotted down > for later use. > > That simile is for easy remembrance and not to dilute or dissuade or > deviate the already existing Dhamma. … S: I appreciate all these helpful efforts of yours. Please don’t be concerned about mistakes with English and so on. Even we native speakers make them;-). Conveying the true Dhamma and discussing it as we are doing is what counts . Metta, Sarah p.s As I said, I thought the sahajata paccaya discussion was v.useful. I particularly liked the first page of your intro, expaining all the terms. One detail I'm not sure of here: Htoo: "Cakkhu pasada rupa also serves as vatthu or ground for related cittas and cetasikas. Throughout the process there are 14 vithi cittas." S: Surely, cakkhu pasada rupa is the vatthu or ground only for cakkhu vinnana citta (seeing consciousness), even though it's the door for the whole process? ========= 41556 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, I'm glad we agree on the basics. There seems to have been some disagreement where I said:"All [the Dhamma] requires is that the present reality is understood." ------------- T: If you mean 'understood' in terms of adhi-panna, then it will be a long while for me before the ultimate realities are seen the way they really are. ------------- Maybe so, but, if there are only dhammas (no us), does it matter? We think it matters because of moha (we don't know there are only dhammas). We are dissatisfied with our lot because of moha and dosa. And we want to do something about it because of moha and lobha. I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? Let's enjoy it! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Ken H. - > > I clearly understand and agree with you about the following (basic) > concepts: 1) the dhammas possess the characteristic called 'Anatta', > because of 'sabba dhamma anatta' (including the Nibbana); 2) all > beings and their desires (to practice or do whatever) are describable > in terms of rupa and nama. 41557 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Htoo, Again I’ve snipped your interesting and helpful comments which we have no disagreement about. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Sarah continued: > > #40779 DT222 > > Several times you say vipaka cittas arise `RIGHTLY' but > javana cittas > may vary. I follow you and I like the Burmese expression > `Vipaka's > right, javana may not be right'. You gave an example of how > smelling > or seeing rotten flesh is definitely a disagreeable object or see or > hear about a disaster. I discussed this topic before with other > friends. > > As a general rule, what you say is correct, but in fact, it depends > on the vipaka at that moment whether really anything unpleasant is > seen, heard or smelt. Again, I'd be wary of such > `blanket' or > definite rules. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is not my blanket. It is written in Abhidhammatthasangaha by > Venerable Anuruddha of Tumuulasoma Monastry of Celon or Sri Lanka. > > 'Sabbatthaapi panettha anitthe aarammane akusalavipakaaneva > pancavinnana sampaticchana santirana tadaarammanaani' > > 'Itthe kusalavipakaani' > > 'Ati-itthe pana somanassa saha gataa neva santirana tadaarammanaani' …. S: If I understand, you are quoting the text which indicates that if an undesirable object is experienced, it is akusala vipaka and vice versa. (translations in future, please, otherwise we’ll get complaints!!) Of course, there’s no disagreement on this. My point was that we can say in general that when we see rotten flesh or hear about a disaster, that’s it’s akusala vipaka, but this is just speaking conventionally. In reality, it depends at that very instant whether there are conditions for kusala or akusala vipaka to arise and experience a desirable or undesirable object. When we hear about a disaster, for example, only sound is experienced. It may be a pleasant sound when a news broadcaster speaks gently. The unpleasantness may just be in the subsequent thinking with dosa. …. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah continued: > > Similarly,when it comes to golden images or even a Buddha statue, it > would depend on the result of kamma at that very moment of seeing or > touching, whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. For most people, I > agree – that's why we read these examples in the texts. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Again Venerable wrote here like this.. > > 'Tatthaapi somanassa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane somanassa > sahagataa neva tadaarammanaani bhavanti' > > 'upekkhaa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane ca upekkhaa sahagataa neva > honti'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: If I follow you (with trouble), you’ve missed my point here. We’re not talking about tadarammana cittas. … > Sarah continued: > ….. > #40782 DT223 > > You continue with this topic and say that if it is a highly agreeable > object, the next javana cittas will all be mahakusala or mahakiriya, > followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana. Are you sure this is true? Ah, > you go on to say there are some exceptional cases. Devadatta, surely. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I have quoted above. If the perception is felt through mahakusala or > mahakiriya then 2 following tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka and > they cannot be [CANNOT BE] akusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. … S: No problem, but we were talking about the javana cittas, not the tadarammana cittas as I understood. …. > > I did show the example of Devadattha. In that case, vipaka is still > right. I means after the kiriya citta of panca-dvara-avajjana there > follow 3 cittas which are all vipaka cittas. They are panca-vinnana > citta, sampaticchana citta and santirana citta. Votthapana citta or > manodvara-avajjana citta is a kiriya cittas. Between 2 kiriya cittas > there are 3 vipaka cittas. … S: Yes, but again we were talking about the javana cittas. … > Vipaka is right for all. Even for Devadattha they are kusala vipaka > cittas. But manodvara-avajjana which functions as votthapana citta > decides to fully apperceive as domanassa then all 7 javana cittas > will be domanassa saha gatam patigha sampayutta asankharika cittas > and sasankharika cittas. … S: Yes, akusala cittas following the kusala vipaka. This was my point. No disagreement, here, perhaps a misunderstanding. …. > > But tadarammana vipaka cittas are no more somanassa cittas but > upekkha cittas. These upekkha cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana > cittas. After akusala there follow abyakata dhamma according to > samanantara paccaya. Akusala cittas of Devadattha's dosa javana is > followed by abyakata dhamma vipaka tadarammana cittas. These vipaka > are kusala vipaka. [quote Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha] … S: Yes, exactly right. I also found a long section in the Atthasalini on this topic too (very detailed). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah continued: > > But still, you may be right (that the immediately following javana > cittas would have to be kusala > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. I think you confused with kusala and abyakata dhamma. > Tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. They are not kusala > dhamma. But they may well be abyakata dhamma derived from kusala or > akusala. … S: But I wasn’t talking about tadaarammana cittas!! …. > Htoo: > > Textual reference is already quoted above. Domanassa javana cittas > are akusala dhamma. But tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. … S: No disagreement on any of this or on anything to do with tadaarammana cittas;-). I had no trouble with what you wrote about them from the outset. …. ***** S:> Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Because there is sati, saddha, and other components of kusala dhamma > including panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: So it is the cittas and accompanying mental factors that are kusala. Please explain why they are kusala just by concentrating on a ‘whole circle’. If we concentrate on a ‘whole circle’ now, would it be kusala? In other words, there has to be understanding of how the object of samatha conditions calm, otherwise the wholesome cittas can never be developed in this way. … > Htoo: > > The practitioner already drives out attachment, restless and has > developed good nature concentrating on the object and that does work > because there is panna who knows this is lust, this is aversion, this > is ill will, this is restlessness, this is sluggishness, this is > doubt, this is worry etc. > > Both teachers of Bodhisatta did not penetrate anicca-dukkha-anatta > and they both were reborn in arupa brahma realms as puthujana arupa > brahmas. As they are puthujana they will not be able to become > sotapams and so other magga nana cannot be atained as long as in > arupa brahma bhumis. > > But they did have panna which know bad things as bad things like > lust, hatred, worry etc etc. … S: OK, all agreed, but you haven’t said anything about the significance of the ‘whole circle’ or white kasina as an object of samatha here. … **** All your details on the jhana and lokuttara processes are very clear and detailed. No quibbles, but I don’t understand this: > 2nd kind > > Lokuttara cittas > > 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMPUAGMPPBBBBB > > 2nd M is magga citta while 1st M is manodvara-avajjana citta. Magga > citta is immediately followed by 2 phala cittas if the practitioner > is mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or > intelligent person then it will be like this > > 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMUAGMPPPBBBBB > > There are 7 javana cittas in both series. > > In the 1st 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotrabhu, 5.magga, 6. > phala, 7 2nd phala. > > In the 2nd 1.upacara, 2.anuloma, 3. gotrabhu, 4. magga, 5.1st phala, > 6.2nd phala, 7.3rd phala … S: I’m not familiar with these terms ‘ mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or intelligent person’, but I don’t see it as being of any concern for a good long while;-). Just curious about the words ‘less intelligent’ here…. Metta, Sarah ====== 41558 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Dear Sarah, this is my late reply. Some passed sotapatti magga gate > and they do not practise phala samapatti because they do not have > jhana and they do not practise phala-samapatti. As they attained > sotapatti magga with dry method or without jhana they may not know > when they pass sotapatti magga gate. ... S: This last line is not how I understand the passages from the Abhidammattha Sangaha and its comy which I quoted recently. Are you saying there is no knowledge of having realized nibbana as you understand the texts? I can quote the passages again if you missed them. ... > > This does not means sotapatti magga citta does not know it enters > ariyan area. But the person as we know does not know fully his status > but he is totally free of doubt or suspicion, free of wrong view and > free of rituals [silabbattaparamaasa]. ... S: Also no doubt about attainment. Even for vipassana nanas. ... > Sotapatti magga is a single point. Do you ever remember a single > point in the middle of billions of different citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: But here the single point is with the full wisdom of the eightfold path and with nibbana as object, appana samadhi etc. ... ***** > Htoo: > > Regarding asannisatta certain super intelligent one said there are 2 > cittas that arise in asannisattas and they are patisandhi citta and > cuti citta. These 2 are exceptions and in the middle there is no > citta at all. > > I do not believe so. Asannisattas are reborn with rupa-patisandhi and > they die with rupa-cuti. > > Any thought on these 2 cittas? Do cittas arise in asannisattas? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: You're right, of course. It's like nirodha samapatti, which is the temporary suspension of all cittas, cetasikas and mind-produced rupas as you've explained at length.When the anagami or arahant emerge from nirodaha samapatti they experience the phala citta (fruition consciousness) conditioned by the previous citta (before suspension of namas etc)by anantara paccaya (proximity condition). In the same way, in the asanna-satta realm where there is similarly only rupa, only when that lifespan is over, rebirth in the following sensuous realm is conditioned (anantara paccaya again) by the previous dying consciousness in the life before birth in the sanna-satta realm. So there is always continuity. .... > In case of asannisatta, the previous life marana-asanna-javana will > be like > > BBB...BBBPUAGJC |______Asannisattas__________|PBBBBBB.... > > J is 5th rupa jhana citta. It is a single citta. And it is like > abhinnana. Marana-asanna-javana has 5 javana cittas. Here they are > > 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotabhu, 5.5thrupa jhana > > this is followed by cuti citta and then followed by rupa-patisandhi > and then rupa-bhavanga throught out the life and die with rupa-cuti. > > | rupa-patisandhi. rupa-bhavanga.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RC | PBBBBB > > There seem to be no changes during asannisattas' life. But there are > changes. Why? These are rupa dhammas and they arise and fall away. ... S: Excellent (as I understand, of course!!). ... > Htoo: > > Once I said that 'Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind'. Some see and > some do not see. The Buddha helped others to see this Dhamma. ... S: Thx for helping us to see. Metta, Sarah ======== p.s I have lots for Dialogue 3, but also lots of other unanswered posts I wish to respond to.....:-/ I'm a bit slow.... 41559 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hello Sarah and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Azita (& Nina), > ....snip.... > ...and remember all those discussions in India (like in the Gangtok hotel > garden) where we were reminded that it's useless to think about whether > the cittas that have gone already are kusala or akusala or to try and be > aware of them when they arise, because it's all just going to be about > *self* once more - clinging again to a 'purer me'. Far more important is > the development of understanding of present dhammas as not-self with > detachment from whatever is conditioned. Namas have to be known as namas > and rupas as rupas over and over again. > > Yes, when we're 'fussy' about what arises, it shows the attachment to self > again. Azita: totally agree, and I like the 'clinging to a purer me'. That is a perfect description. Actually, those times that the 'less purer me' arises, are great lessons to show me more about latent tendencies. To be surprised by strong akusala shows me that I have this idea that I am beyond that type of behaviour - what a fool, eh? > Hope you're recovered from your surgery, Azita. A; thank you, I feel great, even tho I'm mean and nasty :-)) Back at work and looking forward to our next get together. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41560 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? Hi, TG - The following is wonderfully clear! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/30/05 11:10:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > There are three types of craving that arise due to three types of > feeling... > 1) Craving for sensual pleasure ... which arises during > neither-pleasurable-nor-unpleasureable feeling > 2) Craving for continuance ... which arises during pleasurable feeling. > 3) Craving for dis-continuance ... which arises during unpleasant feeling. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41561 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited In a message dated 1/31/2005 12:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Dear Group, A good friend on another list asked me four questions - 1. >who do you think you are? 2. >who do you think this "self" is? 3. >where do "you" come from? 4. >where will "you" go when you depart? I would be sincerely interested in anyone's reply regarding my current understanding, with respect to the Buddha's teachings, and their own views as well: CJF: "1. I note that you requested the reply to be in my own words - 'not what some scribe wrote down 2000+ years ago'. But ... whatever each of us is, is merely the accumulation, the consequence, of everything that has been experienced before. Our current personalities, our ethics, our political beliefs, the way we see the world, our spiritual beliefs are all conditioned by, and are a direct result, of our past - the parents, the family, the ethnic group, the nation, the time period into which we are born, and what has happened to us since birth. It also depends on the genetic inheritance of this material form, this body, and its capabilities both mental and physical. So ... I could recite a litany covering all of the above concerning myself, but still not be aware of all of the main influences that formed "me". 2. and 3. I once believed in a soul, an awareness, who was eternal, who inhabited this body like a letter in an envelope. I accepted the whole X-tian deal. I was baptised, went to sunday school, church, youth groups, taught sunday school in my turn, married a X-tian, worked hard to pay for private X-tian schooling for my son and daughter who began to repeat the above pattern. I was hazy about how I came to be, but accepted the theistic view of an omnipotent being who created all. I don't believe that now. I believe this 'self' is nothing substantial, merely a temporary combination of temporary phenomena - never static, always changing, nothing that stays. 4. I don't think there is a departing of anything - the body of Christine will die, the mental factors of Christine will extinguish. Nothing of Christine will remain. As to what happens after that ... currently I go along with what I think the Buddha taught - that the energy of craving and unextinguished kamma/vipaka will instantly seek a new physical vehicle, not necessarily human. Nothing that can be called another version of Christine, nothing of which it could be said 'this is mine, this I am, this is my self'." metta and peace, Christine Hi Christine My answer to the four questions would go along the lines of -- They are asked from a false premise and they don't apply. Then I would turn it to a discussion on conditions. This is basically what you did and I like your answers. I might also point out that "my own words" are also conditioned from past learning (as is the questionnaire's) and therefore "freely tap into" whatever source those things I have learned have come from. 2000 years ago or not. TG 41562 From: Hugo Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 4 a your messengers? On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:35:14 -0000, Philip wrote: > I still feel > copmpassion and affection when I see people eating junk food or > drinking alcohol. People are so lovable, so pathetic - myself > included, of course - in the way they seek comfort and reassurance, > often in ways that are bad for them. > > Do you all have certain messengers that stick out in your mind? Little kids. How incredibly fast they attach to things. How they keep doing something that gives them the complete opposite result than the one they want. > p.s Seems to be a lot of ice-cream talk here. Rob K's story about > being so uptight about lobha early on that he resisted eating ice- > cream, Rob M feeding ice cream to the monks.... That reminds me that I ran out of Ice Cream.......gotta go to the supermarket....I am not doing it because I crave for it, I am doing it for Phil, so he can exercise his 4 Brahma Viharas. Phil, you can experience Metta and Karuna now that you know I will be buying Ice Cream, you can experience Mudita when I am enjoying the Ice Cream and finally you can experience Upekkha when you know that I won't give you any Ice Cream (you are too far). :-) -- Hugo 41563 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken, You made a statement about how the dhammas should be practiced : > KH: > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt > to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? > Let's enjoy it! :-) But it sounds like a plan to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a rowboat. Good luck! Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I'm glad we agree on the basics. There seems to have been some > disagreement where I said:"All [the Dhamma] requires is that the > present reality is understood." > > > ------------- > T: If you mean 'understood' in terms of adhi-panna, then it will be > a long while for me before the ultimate realities are seen the way > they really are. > ------------- > > Maybe so, but, if there are only dhammas (no us), does it matter? We > think it matters because of moha (we don't know there are only > dhammas). We are dissatisfied with our lot because of moha and dosa. > And we want to do something about it because of moha and lobha. > > > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt to the > present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? Let's enjoy > it! :-) > > Ken H > > 41564 From: Hugo Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited Dear Christine, I can't think on anything I would say differently, except for the details regarding Sunday school. -- Hugo 41565 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Howard's suttas, 2. Sutta no 3. Hi Howard, Jon and all, PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' "Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one's parents." Verse (P.T.S. translation): Giving and harmlessness and self-restraint, Control of sense and service to the parents And holy ones who live the righteous life,- If anyone be wise to do these things By good men favoured, an Ariyan Clear-sighted, will attain the world of bliss. N: the Co states as to prescribed: what the wise prescribe, declare, exhort to. Prescribe: the word paññatti, which can mean regulation, is used here. Thus, these are strong wordings. 'Wise', sappurisa, the Co adds: mahaa-purisa, great men, a term for ariyans. It is repeated: they prescribe, declare, exhort to these things. As to harmlessness, ahimsa, this is compassion and the foundation of it. Control of sense: sa.mvara siila: the guarding of the sense-doors, indriyas. It is said that one trains oneself by means of the uposatha siila. Siila observed on vigil days. Service to mother and father: to take care of them, to protect them, to serve them. Holy ones, this is the translation of santa, calm. The Co states that in other texts this word refers to the Buddha, the Solitary Buddha and all ariyans who are calm. In this context it refers to those who serve their parents. The ariyans are calm in the highest sense, they live the righteous life, brahmacaariya, the superior way of life. The Co. explains that we should understand that the service to one's parents the wise regulate, declare, exhort to, is superior. An Ariyan is clear-sighted: endowed with wisdom (dassana, seeing). Because of the three conditions that are mentioned in the sutta one is an ariyan, a noble person. The Co adds: this word does not denote here a Buddha, etc. or a sotapanna, etc. N: these three conditions are: Giving and harmlessness and self-restraint, control of sense and service to the parents. Harmlessness and self-restraint, control of senses, is summarized in the Sutta as going forth. It is a way of renunciation. It is said that those who serve mother and father are ariyans, noble ones. They are clearsighted. They will have rebirth in heavenly planes. Remark: this sutta reminds us to practice virtues dear to the ariyans, such as service to one's parents. The Co. repeats this with much emphasis. Actually, this sutta points to satipatthana in daily life. Guarding of the sense-doors is achieved by mindfulness of whatever object presents itself through one of the six doorways. At the same time we should practise generosity and compassion. In that way we practise the righteous living, brahmacaariya, namely the development of the eightfold Path and this will lead to becoming an ariyan in the sense of an enlightened person. The wise prescribe, declare, exhort to these things. We are usually heedless, lazy and attached to our own confort. Such strong exhortations are most beneficial to remind us to develop satipatthana and all good qualities, such as helping our parents and our fellowmen. Nina. 41566 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Pilgrimage India 4 b Pilgrimage India 4 b We then read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. We read that King Yama then questioned him about the second divine messenger: ³Did you not see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing among men?² ³No, Lord, I did not see him.² ³But, my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who was sick and in pain, seriously ill, lying in his own filth, who had to be lifted up by some, and put to bed by others?² ³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.² ³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to sickness and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?² ³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.² We read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. King Yama then questioned him about the third divine messenger: ³But my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who had died one day ago or two, or three days ago, the corpse being swollen, discoloured and festering?² ³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.² ³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to death and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?² ³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.² We then read that he had to suffer as the result of his evil deeds grievous torments in hell. This sutta exhorts us not to be negligent in kusala, but to perform good deeds through body, speech and mind whenever there is an opportunity. *** Nina 41567 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 31-01-2005 02:21 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w..., > In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures nibbling on > the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare this > to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in the > same sutta. N: Contact is mental nutrition. It stresses here that it conditions feeling that is dukkha. Citta that is vipaaka is also a mental nutriment. The disadvantage is shown in this sutta. The sutta explains the D.O. L:This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or subtle > consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does > contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to all > the cetasikas that arise? N: Contact is not citta, it is cetasika, and it accompanies each citta. Without contact citta cannot experience any object. Contact also applies to all the accompanying cetasikas, they all share the object that citta experiences. Nina. 41568 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 4. Hi Larry, op 31-01-2005 01:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Do you see a difference between: 1. "feeling experiences tangible data" and >2: "feeling is an experience conditioned by tangible data"? N: I would phrase it in a more precise way: feeling is a type of nama and it is conditioned by tangible data by way of object-condition. 1 and 2 say that feeling experiences an object, but 2 refers to object-condition. L: I think you are using a subject/object model in your understanding of > the role of objects. This leads to a belief in self, as you know. N: I understand what you think here. Actually, this happens all the time, no matter what we are doing, even when performing kusala. The latent tendency of wrong view has not been eradicated. We can also read the whole Tipitaka in the wrong way, thinking of self who studies, who meditates who notes realities. It helps to be on the alert of this. L: If one nama cognizes another dhamma, then that nama is playing the role of > subject, a doer. I agree that some of the wording of abhidhamma suggests > a subject/object model. N: That happens if we read and understand it in the wrong way. L: but I think we have to reason our way around > that obstacle and see it in a different way. This is what commentators > do ;-) N: No need for reasoning around it. In the Tipitaka itself there are many guidelines for us to correct wrong view. We should keep in mind the Buddha's words about the khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas that are impermanent and not self. What arises only for a short moment by a concurrence of conditions has to fall away, how could that be self? Object in the Tipitaka is different from object in some philosophical ways of thinking, referring to subject/object relation. Object arising by a concurrence of conditions falls away immediately, so does the naama that experiences it. I am thinking of Rob K's and my favorite quote about the elements, a text by the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the third Book of the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on Elements (Dhåtu-Kathå, P.T.S.): "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have brought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions."> The Aayatanas help us, they show that there is a momentary association of object and sense-door which conditions the experience of that object, also very momentary. A concurrence of conditions: without the eye-door adverting-citta that is the first citta of the eye-door process there could not be seeing. Kamma produces seeing that is vipaaka. Without contact there could not be seeing. As to feeling, we have to remember the satipatthana sutta: see feeling in feeling, not self. No matter whether it is pleasnat, unpleasant or indifferent feeling. A review about occasion, samaya (Dhannasanagani: at that occasion arises mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa associated with pleasant feeling and the all the other accompanying cetasikas): Another review: <...the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out 'the extreme rarity of such moments'. It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: 'as difficult for the mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning-flash, because of its extremely short duration.' > Nina. 41569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects,mind-door. Hi Howard, op 31-01-2005 01:46 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Actually, the way I usually distinguish nama from rupa (for my own > benefit) is that nama is what is knowable *only* through the mind door. (The > only trouble with that, unfortunately, is the water element, which, according to > Abhidhamma, is a rupa known only through the mind door. However, if there is > going to be an exception to a definition, I would rather it be the water > element> that is the exception than nibbana. :-) N: I am sorry to disappoint you, but water is not the only rupa. The only rupas that are experienced through the sense doors are: three great elements that are tangible object, visible object, sound, odour and flavour. They can be experienced through the relevant sense-door and the mind-door. All the other rupas cannot be experienced through a sense-door. Take nutrition, life faculty, the senses, etc. these are experienced only through the mind-door. I think to distinguish nama (not talking now about nibbana) from rupa is to remember: nama experiences and rupa does not experience anything. This is important. No danger of subject/object relation here, if one remembers what the Buddha stressed all the time (see my mail to Larry). I know Dan mentioned subject/object, but it need not be any issue or problem. In this way one gets used to characteristics and there is no need to think of doorways. Nina. 41570 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:33am Subject: Sarah: Ven. Nanananda and Nibbana Hi Sarah I accidentally deleted the comments or references you posted regarding the topic Cosmique and I were discussing. If not too much trouble, would you please send again. Thanks. TG 41571 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:42am Subject: Dhamma Thread (251) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 woeful planes of existence or 4 apaya bhumis. All these 4 realms have been discussed in the previous posts. Regarding 'rebirth' or 'patisandhi' arising in any of these 4 realms is called 'apaya patisandhi'. There are 7 profitable realms or 7 kama sugatai bhumis or 7 sensuous planes that are profitable for beings. These 7 realms are 1. manussa bhumi or 'human realm' 2. catu-maha-rajika bhumi or 4-deva-king realm 3. tavatimsa bhumi or 33-devas realm 4. yaamaa bhumi or yaamaa deva realm 5. tusitaa bhumi or tusitaa deva realm 6. nimmanarati bhumi or deva realm of creation 7. paranimmita-vassavati bhumi or deva realm of occupying others' creation All these 7 kama sugati bhumis are profitable for beings if they can use the time properly in these realms. These realms are where beings are reborn with 9 patisandhi cittas. These 9 patisandhi cittas are 1 ahetuka kusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta and 8 mahavipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41572 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:23pm Subject: Get more dukkha! Hello everyone This morning, over breakfast, Sandra was reminding me of things I have to do today. One of these instructions was "get more dukkha". Not being fully awake, my mind struggled to comprehend. Was she cursing me? Was there some new-fangled theory that more dukkha was desirable? Then it dawned on me. She was talking about "duccah", a mixture of seeds that is sprinkled over warm bread and olive oil. So there you go, kind DSG folk, one and all, a hearty breakfast of dukkha/duccah will give you all the energy you need for the arising of right effort. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 41573 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited Hi Christine, Another way to look at this question, "who do you think you are?" is to ask "who do I think I am right now?" In other words how is self view manifesting right now. This is a useful meditation, to just look at self view as it evolves and changes from moment to moment; but clarity can be hard to come by and divergences very tempting. Larry 41574 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Vism.XIV,135 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 135. (ii) It wills (cetayati), thus it is 'volition' (cetanaa); it collects, is the meaning. Its characteristic is the state of willing. Its function is to accumulate. It is manifested as coordinating. It accomplishes its own and others' functions, as a senior pupil, a head carpenter, etc., do. But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associated states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on. 41575 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Kel - Thank you for replying to my questions, some of which I did not have to ask at all, if I had studied the Sayadaw's article beforehand. Kel: Full strength saddha is one that can overcome craving for any kind of existence. The beginning of that article goes into some details about it. Forgive me as I paste more stuff:... T: I am sorry that I was a little lazy and failed to read the article before asking the above question. After seeing "the stuff" you had copied from the article I went to the source and read it over. It is really beneficial for me to keep a copy of the following passage (from this article) at hand; it reminds me about the great value of viriya bala. And it is beyond any doubt that viriya bala that belongs to the 'serious' practitioners is not a wrong effort. The pakati-viriya is actually the wrong effort. "Of the two kinds of viriya, pakati-viriya which has no development practice, associates with kosajja (laziness) according to occasion and produces the pakati-kusala-kamma of dana, the study of the sacred texts, etc. This pakati-viriya cannot dispel kosajja subdues pakati- viriya. When beings encounter a Buddha Sasana, they acquire the knowledge that in the past infinite samsara they have been the kinsfolk of sakkaya- ditthi, the duccarita, and the apaya loka. The sacred Pali Texts clearly prescribe the method of the ariyavamsa, which consists of dispelling kosajja (laziness) and devoting the whole time to bhavanarama (delight in meditation) till release from such state is attained". "It is only bhavana-viriya, such as being satisfied with the minimum of sleep, being always alert and active, being fearless, being bold and firm in living alone, being steadfast in mental advertence, that can dispel kosajja. In the matter of the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma, it is this bhavana-viriya that should be acquired". Kel: In general he likes to use kayagatasati as a basic step of establishing satipatthana. He says after this step, you go to citta vissudhi, purification of the mind or samatha. He doesn't really use satipatthana beyond this step. T: Yes. The Venerable explained that the bhavana panna that "set up the kayagata-sati" was the only panna that can dispel sammoha. He said that anapanasati is the "work of satipatthana". "A person who is afflicted with a major disease, such as leprosy, has no desire to take an interest in the ordinary affairs and undertakings of the world. But if after taking the proper medicines and treatment, the great sickness is gradually cured and he is aroused from his apathy. This is inevitable. The group of five akusala kamma of tanha, kosajja mutthasacca, vikkhepa, and sammoha, resemble five major sicknesses.[120] In the Sasana the work of samatha and vipassana- bhavana resembles the affairs and undertakings of the world. The work of satipatthana, such as anapana-sati, resembles the taking of proper medicines and treatment. The rest of the comparison can be easily recognised". [Footnote 120. Five major sicknesses are: 1. leprosy, 2. boils, 3. tuberculosis, 4. apoplexy, 5. excema.] T: Here, mutthasacca means "inability to become absorbed in the work of samatha- bhavana--such as in kayagata-sati--or in the work of vipassana-bhavana inability to concentrate, inability to control one's mind, and the wandering of thoughts to objects other than the object concentrated on", and vikkhepa means "the inability to concentrate, and of unquietness and restlessness of mind in the work of bhavana manasikara. It is the arising of thoughts on objects other than the object of concentration". Thank you for everything, Kelvin. Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > I) I assume that the "respective patipakkha dhammas" are those > things > > opposing to the five balas. For example, is tanha a patipakkha > > dhamma to saddha bala and, if it is so, why? > Yes, 5 opposites. Even kusala actions like dana are motivated by > tanha in desiring to be born to higher realms. Full strength saddha > is one that can overcome craving for any kind of existence. The > beginning of that article goes into some details about it. Forgive > me as I paste more stuff: > 41576 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:02pm Subject: for James from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the cetasika of initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system." 41577 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hi Phil (Azita, KenH, Sukin & All), --- Philip wrote: > For some reason, Sarah, the following stuck me as a little too > discouraging of ways of making progress. … S: I do understand. What is sweet medicine for one (Azita in this case as I thought it would be for her), is bitter medicine or no medicine for another. Similarly, Ken H’s recent reminders which seemed discouraging to some, were very sweet to me. He wrote: “We are dissatisfied with our lot because of moha and dosa. And we want to do something about it because of moha and lobha. I think “There are only dhammas” is the knowledge we need to acquire….” … S:When we dwell on ‘I was so mean’ or ‘I have so much attachment’, the clinging to self can be seen right then and there. Awareness and understanding can’t know about what’s gone and it’s useless to cling more to past experiences. Only by being aware now, not just thinking, will there be less and less attachment to signs and details as we were reminded again and again on our trip. In the Gangtok garden discussion I mentioned last time, just this point came up. Nina, I think it was, mentioned the difficulties we’d all experienced and chatted about while we were sitting on long bus rides. K.Sujin just interrupted and asked:‘what about now?’. Gradually by developing awareness, it gets used to realities, rather than stories about past or future experiences. In this way, there will be less agitation when there’s akusala of any kind. The stories can be cut just like that. The bus rides, the bumps, the difficulties, the unwholesome thinking – all gone at a moment of awareness. We have to become more and more detached from places, people, special routines and so on as being more suitable too, otherwise there will never be the development of awareness and understanding of present realities. I liked Sukin’s reminders a lot when he stressed we have to examine everything we read and hear (sweet/bitter medicine?): Sukin: ”We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather “panna” in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of ‘self’, ‘other’ and ‘activity’, then even this is wrong.” .... S:As far as I’m concerned, when it comes to an understanding of dhammas as anatta and *not doing anything* in order to develop awareness, what we read or hear can never be extreme enough. Sukin also wrote: “It is not that I don’t think sila is important, but because ‘straightening view’ is primary, and part of this is being alert to ‘self view’, drawing particular attention to other kusala does not occur.”. ..... S:I would add, it's not so much that it 'does not occur', but that there can be more and more detachment from whether the present cittas are kusala or akusala. It reminds me of an occasion a while back when I started to ask K.Sujin about developing metta. She just jumped in before the question was finished with ‘clinging to self’. It was the best bitter medicine at the time. She meant that just by asking the question, it was apparent that it was motivated by attachment and she was right of course. We may feel discouraged or fear that without taking special actions that we will just become meaner and have less metta or even really 'go to the dogs', so to speak. I think the opposite is true. With less thought or concern about oneself or one’s mental states and more understanding about all dhammas, there is the development of higher sila, generosity, metta, understanding of others and so on in addition to satipatthana. We learn more and more about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. [We read in a sutta somewhere that it’s only by living closely with someone for a long time that one will really know their sila. In this regard I’m very fortunate to live with a model example of someone who has never even hinted at the need for any special intentions or efforts to ‘do’ anything and yet who has always kept excellent sila in all regards since I’ve known him with great confidence in all kinds of kusala.] It’s true that we all have different accumulations as you (Phil) always stress, but whatever our ‘lot’, detachment from an idea of self and acceptance with awareness of presently conditioned dhammas is the only way. Higher sila, higher concentration or calmness and eventually higher wisdom can only be perfected by the development of vipassana – the clear ‘seeing’ and penetration of dhammas. Sukin also wrote: “However the theory must match the reality of practice. They must not conflict at any point of time. And at any time there is a ‘self’ with an idea of “doing”, I think such instances, the conflict is there and this expresses itself in silabattaparamasa.” ..... S: I think the path is very subtle and more and more subtle kinds of wrong view and practice become apparent, even as Sukin suggests, while reading dhamma texts, reflecting on past experiences and so on. In the same discussion I referred to last time, K.Sujin was also talking about patipatti (practice). She mentioned that people are attached to patipatti, to practice, but what is it? Who is practicing? What is the object of understanding? Without clear understanding, it can be so far away from an understanding of present dhammas or reality. What is conditioned right now is arising and falling away for good, never to come back. The next moment is already conditioned as it is, kusala or akusala, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not ‘me’ or ‘I’ who is aware. It’s awareness itself which can arise anytime by conditions and be aware. Don’t expect to have more or follow the wrong path with attachment. She also stressed at this time about developing wise attention of visible object and other realities. Viriya (right effort) is there already. By understanding dhammas, we can get to know what viriya is, *not* by doing something else. No one can do or create any viriya. It’s already there, arising and falling away. Slowly understanding can get to know moments with and without awareness, without thinking and speculating or trying to be aware or clinging to Azita’s or Phil’s stream of cittas being a certain way. Metta, Sarah ======== 41578 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > I'll attempt to give a simple model that I have for workings of > kamma. Htoo will give his own I'm sure. Hallo Kel Thanks for your answer, it was difficult enough: difficult to belief. But first a informational question. You say: "Every being carries that kamma baggage until it has a chance to give results. This baggage is made out of middle 5 out of 7 javana cittas" So kamma is made out of cittas. But what I understood till now is that cittas are arising and falling away, even in a rather quick way: within milliseconds. So how can the kamma-bearing-cittas travel through time ? But even when kamma is continuously transported from a set of cittas to the next set, it's not clear to me how these cittas can carry so much kamma-information: billions of bits? This is where "I don't understand" changes in "I don't belief": I know your big knowledge of Abhidhamma but this sounds so mechanical, not spiritual at all. It does not resonate in me in a manner of "this must be true" like many other parts of the Teachings (as anicca, anatta and the three roots) do resonate. It is like kamma works as 'momentum' and 'energy' in particle physics: one (kamma-)citta moving (=creating) another at the moment it falls away, and all this independent of the physical body to which to kamma is connected. Maybe there are other descriptions, other metaphores that can do the resonating work better on a agnostic westerner? Metta Joop > > But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after > tens > > or hundreds or billions of years ? > > I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can > never > > be reborn in higher sentient beings. > No, unfortunately not. Every being carries that kamma baggage > until it has a chance to give results. This baggage is made out of > middle 5 out of 7 javana cittas from every kusala/akusala vithis. > This is of course until one becomes an ariya then the rebirth > quality kamma into lower realms are eliminated but note lesser > intensity kammas remain. > Now I'll go into a bit of detail so bear with me. Let's say > someone committed patricide or some heinous crime in a previous life > (not current). We know there's millions or billions of akusala > vithi for such act. Exactly one vithi (5 cittas together) is used > for rebirth-linking for that person to be born into hell then it's > given result so it's gone. The power of that vithi will determine > what realm of hell and how long the life expectancy is etc. Now the > remaining million will act as "support" kamma. They'll keep that > person there in that realm, keep on suffering and getting used up in > the process (possibly lower intensity vithis). They also might > cause that person to repeatedly reborn into that realm, using up > even more vithis/kamma. Now let's also say that person built stupas > for some Buddha in yet another previous life. They have another > million of kusala kammas. Those kusala kammas might give result to > lessen the suffering in hell existence. One example is being a pet > in America. Some of them have truly luxurious lives but alas they > are still in animal world without a chance to get dhamma. So the > kusala vithis can act as "interferring" kamma to lessen the blow of > akusala kamma. They can also act as "destructive" kamma to put an > end to the existence given by akusala kamma too. Regardless of what > mode they give result in, they are used up. Htoo mentioned in his > dhamma threads of different kammas competiting for a chance to give > resultant. When they don't win, they'll go back to latent stages. > The winner is used up as I said. > > > And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for > it, > > automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or > > shorter); or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when > > conditions for that falling away occur ? Or means 'used up": only > > when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results > of > > it? > Kamma as soon as it's given the result, falls away The effect of > the result remains, ie this body/existence. The remaining kammas > will either prolong or shorten that effect. > > - Kel 41579 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:20am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 113 - Concentration/ekaggataa (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Right understanding is accompanied by right concentration which has arisen because of the appropriate conditions and which performs its function without the need to think of focusing on a particular object. Mindfulness, right understanding and right concentration are realities which arise because of their own conditions, they are anattå. There is no self who can direct the arising of any citta or who can regulate the experiencing of a particular object. But the conditions for right mindfulness and right understanding can be cultivated; they are: studying the realities the Buddha taught and considering them when they appear in daily life. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41580 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James Aiya, I said before already, one cannot go into immaterial jhanas without going through the material jhanas ;-). > James: Who says so? The first jhana isn't a requirement for > sotapanna as far as I know (it seems that list of requirements for > sotapanna just keeps growing and growing! ;-) k: Usually in the sutta, the first jhanas in the Buddha dhamma is always associated with sotapanna, may not be always true :) > James: The sutta doesn't mention that, it only mentions his > remembrance of his childhood experience of jhana. If you have > textual support that he practiced the jhanas in previous lifetimes, > > I would be very interested to read that. In other words, please > quote that textual support. k: James if jhanas is the cause of enlightment as I said again, many brahims will have been enlighted way before. Why do some practitioners become enlighted while some dont even though they experience the same jhanas. Ken O 41581 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread (252) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 11 kama bhumis or 11 sensuous planes of existence. They are 1. niraya bhumi or hell realm 2. tiracchana bhumi or animal realm 3. peta or petta bhumi or hungry ghost realm 4. asurakaya bhumi or demon realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm 6. catu-maha-rajika bhumi or 4-great-king deva realm 7. tavatimsa deva bhumi or 33-devas deva realm 8. yaamaa deva bhumi or yaamaa deva realm 9. tusitaa deva bhumi or tusitaa deva realm 10.nimmanarati deva bhumi or creating-deva realm 11.paranimmita-vassavati deva bhumi or occupier-of-creation deva realm In these realms 54 kamavacara cittas are dominant and most frequently arising cittas. The first 4 realms are called apaya bhumis or woeful realms. Akusala santirana vipaka citta serves as rebirth-consciousness in these 4 realms. The other 7 realms are called kama-sugati realms. In these 7 realms kusala vipaka santirana citta and 8 mahavipaka cittas serve as rebirth-consciousness or patisandhi-cittas. To be reborn in manussa bhumi or human realm one of these 9 patisandhi cittas has to arise as patisandhi citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41582 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, > > KH: > > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt > > to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? > > Let's enjoy it! :-) > Tep: > But it sounds like a plan to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a rowboat. > > Good luck! ------------- That is hardly the enthusiastic response I was hoping for. :-) How would you have responded had you been one of the merchants mentioned in the suttas (I think I can find the exact sutta if you want): They asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, and his answer was, ""As to the teaching of the Tathagata, profound, deep in meaning, concerned with anatta . . ., from time to time we shall spend our days learning it." That is how you should live your lives." Ken H 41583 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry Sorry for being too crytic at times because sometimes I just do not have inspiration to write better, like a writer block ;-) I have find an extract from a sutta, SN III, Khandhasamyutta, Nakulapita <> My notes: In this sutta, Buddha states that when perceptions associated with me, mine and myself. There arise suffering. In this way we can see that perceptions associated with the three roots are the cause of suffering. Then later in the same sutta, the Buddha said that <<"He does not regard perception as self or self as possessing perception or perection as in self or self as in perception.............there do not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair">> This indicates that perception will arise to a person who is enlighted. By joining the two paragrah, a preception itself is not the cause of suffering, the associated roots is the caused. Ken O 41584 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'- Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Dear Nina (& Phil), When I spoke to K.Sujin at the weekend about arrangements, I also asked her about yoniso/ayoniso manasikara as the line was unusually clear and she was free!. (Pls note, I was making notes while discussing, so it's a summary of the notes put together below only). We’ve had several discussions and I think our understanding is a little different on this point(but still, I wouldn’t like to say I’m sure of anything!!). --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Manasikaara cetasika arises with each citta, kusala, akusala, or > indeterminate. The word wise attention is not used for this cetasika, > but, > as we shall see, wise attention refers to citta, the mind-door adverting > consciousness which is then followed by kusala cittas. > There are three manasikaaras, two are cittas, one is cetasika. Also the > Tiika of the Vis. deals with these. … S: We agree about the three manasikaaras in the texts and as we discussed in India. My question to K.Sujin was whether *yoniso/ayoniso* manasikara (wise/unwise attention) referred to: a) manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) preceding kusala/akusala cittas b) the cetasika, manasikara in the javana process c) a combination of cittas and cetasikas. ... KS: ‘when kusala citta has arisen, yoniso manaskikara must accompany it (also for ayoniso). If it’s ‘yoniso’ it has to be kusala.' ... S: So we cannot say it’s the manodvaravajjana citta? ... KS: ‘We can say its ‘yoniso’ when it’s the same mano dvara (mind door)series including the preceding manodvaravajjana citta, but yoniso must be kusala manasikara accompanying the citta.’ ... She then stressed the simile about the foolish attendant who doesn’t know anything about the greatness of the king, referring to the manodvaravajjana citta. Its function, she said, is just to precede the javanas which arise by pakatupanaissaya (natural decisive support condition). In other words, as I understand, the kusala and akusala states including yoniso and ayoniso manasikara, arise because of accumulations, not because of this one citta which precedes it. ... KS: ‘That’s all. Yoniso must refer to kusala. Manodvaravajjana citta doesn’t know anything about kusala or akusala. It’s ahetuka citta, quite different from kusala. It’s just one citta, not accompanied by any wholesome cetasikas. It’s just a condition indirectly for yoniso or ayoniso. So it can be called yoniso condition, but the main condition is pakatupanissaya.’ ... S: So yoniso and ayoniso manasikara must refer to the cetasika?’ ... KS: ‘That’s what I understand. But when there’s awareness, we cannot pinpoint cittas and cetasikas.’ ... This was what she also said about manodvaravajjana citta and votthapana citta (determining consciousness) before in Kaeng Krajan, as I recall, when we raised Rob M’s points on this too. Also,it’s the same as in the comment you repeated before from mp3 where she says: “Kusala citta itself is yoniso, aksuala ayoniso” (S: i.e yoniso and ayoniso refer to manasikara arising with kusala and akusala citta, not manodvaravajjana citta). “Each citta is anantara paccaya for the next one, it is fast. Kusala and akusala citta arise because of natural dependence condition.” (S: i.e they follow manodvaravajjana citta as Archarn Sompon said, but no need to stress this as it’s not the main cause for wise/unwise attention. It is the 'way-paver' (as you mentioned from Vis X1V, 152) or javana pa.tipaada’ in terms of preceding them only). I hope this helps. I can raise anything further in Bkk or we can together in India if we all make it there. Metta, Sarah ======== 41585 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: Ven. Nanananda and Nibbana Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > I accidentally deleted the comments or references you posted regarding > the > topic Cosmique and I were discussing. If not too much trouble, would > you please > send again. Thanks. ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41551 This should work. Metta, Sarah ======= 41586 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Rob > it is simply describing the characteristics of miccha samadhi, wrong > concentration. > One can concentrate on the breath, for instance, and eventually feel > very tranquil with strong concentration- but have developed only > Miccha Samadhi associated with subtle lobha. > That is one reason why objects such a death (maranasati) are > recommended:?@meditation on breath is subtle and can easily be done > with attachment, whereas the object of death is not so refined and > does not encourage attachment (although of course it can). > ----------------------------------------------- Does death as a meditation object refer to contemplations on corpses etc or does it have to do with death as a release of the khandas. When we die the conditioned factors that we have clung to with such desperation through that lifetime vanish. What was Phil is no longer, just like that. Is it that kind of thing, or is it more concrete, reflecting on the worm-food left behind? > phil: When the > concentration > > is removed, the defilements will spring back up with the same > force > > they had before (when conditions are there) and perhaps even > > fortified because there is added ignorance. > =============== > here you are talking about genuine right concentartion at the level > of samatha, which does supress defilements. BUT the dhammasangani is > talking about pure lobha, desire. The defilements are not supressed, > they are being increased during miccha samadhi. Today I was walking in the park and without intending to fell into a kind of walking meditation (at normal speed) that I developed a couple of years ago when I was reading a lot of Thich Nhat Hahn. It happens a lot when I walk in the park, walking along with awareness on the breath. It's not something I would intentionally do now, but when it happens I stay with it. And I must admit that while I am doing it, I am a very harmless fellow. Hostile thoughts, lustful thoughts are supressed. I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with insight, but it does make me more harmless to others while I'm doing it. I remember when we talked at the airport you referred to the sutta about the tree, about how some people are satisfied to go away with a handful of branches, and other's get the bark, and the wood, and a few get right to the pith. I have been seeing lately very clearly that I might be a handful of branches kind of person. Walking in Tokyo, I saw a graffit that read "check ur motivations" and it made me think about how shallow my Dhamma motications are. Do I really want to be liberated from samsara, or is my interest in Dhamma just aimed at trying to make this lifetime more pleasant, at gaining a little bit of peace of mind in this one lifetime? Practices like the one described above do make life more pleasant, and do condition a reduction in the crudest manifestations of lust and hatred, but they don't lead towards the pith, I know that. Thus I am very grateful to have come across teachings that are much subtler and call for more patience and a release of expectations re results in this one lifetime. Just a ramble there, Rob. No need to respond. Thanks again for your feedback. Metta, Phil 41587 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? Hi TG. Thanks for the feedback. > I've been curious about this passage from an Ayya Khema Dhamma > talk: "All happenings act as triggers for us - but there are only two > reactions - equanimity and craving." > > I also seem to remember learning that there is no dosa that is > not preceded by lobha, or words to that effect. (snip) > > Is dosa always at least partially conditioned by lobha that > precedes it? > TG > There are three types of craving that arise due to three types of feeling... > 1) Craving for sensual pleasure ... which arises during > neither-pleasurable-nor-unpleasureable feeling > 2) Craving for continuance ... which arises during pleasurable feeling. > 3) Craving for dis-continuance ... which arises during unpleasant feeling. > > Craving has three aspects, the last one listed being aversion. No need to > think of lobha as somehow "jumping in front." > This threefold craving is not the same as the threefold craving for sensual pleasures, becoming and annihilation, right? Is there any parallel between them? (I've never really understood what the craving for annihilation means.) But we know that at the time of aversion, there are cittas rooted in moha and dosa, right? There isn't lobha at that time. So again I'm thinking chronoligically and getting confused. Are there also cittas with all three roots? You're saying that "craving for discontinuance" *is* aversion, right? Again, that confuses me, because aversion is dosa and craving is lobha. (or is craving tanha, which is different from lobha?) Do lobha and dosa arise together in the case of 3) above. That's not possible, is it? Sorry for the jumble of questions. I really should look at these kind of things in the morning. Sleepy now. Metta, Phil 41588 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. - KH: > How would you have responded had you been one of the merchants > mentioned in the suttas (I think I can find the exact sutta if you > want): They asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, and > his answer was, ""As to the teaching of the Tathagata, profound, > deep in meaning, concerned with anatta . . ., from time to time we > shall spend our days learning it." That is how you should live your > lives T: This sutta deserves a careful study, Ken. If you can give the title and reference (e.g. MN, AN, or whatever, with the number) then I would be thankful. My opinion based on the above quote is that merchants those days traveled a lot and did not have time (or strong saddha) to practice earnestly. Therefore, they only had to slowly and occasionally chew the Teachings (that are profound/deep in meaning/concerned with anatta) and be contented at that level of study. Thank you for your friendly and constructive attitude, partner. Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > KH: > > > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > > > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > > > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > > > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt > > > to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? > > > Let's enjoy it! :-) > > > Tep: > But it sounds like a plan to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a > rowboat. > > > > Good luck! > ------------- > > That is hardly the enthusiastic response I was hoping for. :-) ." > > > Ken H 41589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >Hi Jon > > >... >As far as the 7 Abhidhamma texts are concerned, I don't have any problem with >them that I can remember. Haven't read them all the way cover to cover other >than the Vibhanga. > I'm very impressed, TG. And I can tell from your posts of late that you've given a lot of thought to things. >I am a hard core D.O. person. Everything that arises in bound to >conditions. I don't believe something can arise that is non-existent. > That's just it. Names and meanings are mind-created and do not arise. As you read this message to yourself, what is arising, following the seeing and visible object, is thinking consciousness only. This thinking consciousness is able to 'decipher' letters from the visible data then words and then meaning, but none of those thoughts actually arise in the sense of have any existence separate from the moment of thinking consciousness of which they are the object. > I don't >even believe in conventional or absolute truths. Its true or it >isn't...period. > > An absolute truth, as the name implies, is one that holds good for all time, all occasions and all beings. / /I think you'll find that conventional truths do not meet this test. The other distinguishing factor is that an understanding of conventional truths does not lead to escape from samsara -- only an understanding of absolute truths can do that. >The things we have learned in the past, are memories that are "tapped into" >when the appropriate conditions arise. The mountain doesn't "just appear" when >someone skies on it...its a "potential ski slope" Memories are "potential >concepts" when the conditions arise that activate them. As such conditions >arise, the memories are slightly altered according to the new impacting >conditions. Just like the mountain will be slightly altered due to the contact of the skier. > > I am not disagreeing with the idea that 'memories' are constantly changing. But I'm sorry I don't see the connection between that and the question of whether ideas do or do not arise separately from the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. Jon 41590 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: for James Hi Connie (and Ken O., Htoo) - This commentary summary is very concise and should be read over several times so that confusions concerning the true meanings of the Path factors will be put to rest. Thank you very much for this contribution. Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary > ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 > "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view > (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the > Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the cetasika of > initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, > and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three > abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right > mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right > concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta > system." 41591 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >L: Maybe we could say the cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa in >that it is a group of rupas arranged by present intention. However, in >some mysterious way this cup of tea fulfills kamma initiated by previous >intention and there will possibly be a subsequent fulfillment of the >kamma involved in the intentional production of the cup of tea. > > These are 2 different kinds of fuflillment -- the second one is a purely conventional idea of fulfilment, nothing to do with vipaka as result of kamma. But there is no guarantee of (conventional) fulfilment of the original intention. The cup of tea may not taste pleasant like it should, or we may get burnt by it, or it may spill, or whatever. >See CMA p.172: "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an >undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is >governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the >opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of >consciousness (vipaakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the >nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a >facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face." > > As this passage clearly states, the nature of the experience in relation to the cup of tea will be governed by one's past kamma (i.e., not by one's intention at the time of making the cup of tea). >If we don't say a cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa then is >there no intention responsible for producing it? > >I have a feeling I am missing some abhidhamma regarding the mechanics of >intentional action. Do you know anything about this? > > Sure, intentional action plays a (conventional) role, but may not there be other conditioning forces at work that perhaps are not readily apparent to us in our present state of undeveloped understanding? Jon 41592 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Sarah, I think we are missing something. That is you missed something or I missed something. Because my replies seem to be related to tadarammana cittas and you said you are not talking tadarammana cittas. I also quoted what I referred without any translation because I believed you already know all these. Please see the discussions below. Apology for my delay. Time did not allow me at that time to respond straight away. As usual I snip away some. So the followings are just main points. You wrote: Dear Htoo, Sorry for delays as usual. I've snipped your points where there's no controversy and we're in agreement (just leavin a little for context). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: ...and when it is not kamma patha (even partial factors), I understand they are conditioning later akusala cittas and cetasikas by pakatupanissaya (natural decisive support condition), not kamma condition. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Sahajaataa cetanaa sahajaataanam naamaruupaanam, naanaakkhanikaa cetana kammaabhinibbattaanam naamaruupaanam kamma vasena,...' Cetana in each and every citta (89 cittas) supports or conditions those 89 cittas, and their associated 51 cetasikas after excluding cetana cetasika, and cittaja ruupa or consciousness-derived materials, patisandhe kammaja ruupa or rebirth-kamma-derived materials. This is sahajata kamma paccaya or 'conascence-kamma condition'. Those 19 kusala cetasikas and 14 akusala cetasikas in those particular past condition 'kammaja vipaka chattimsa[36]' and namakkhandha, patisandhi kammaja ruupa and pavatti kammaja ruupa with the condition called 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. I know pakati-upanissaya paccaya or 'natural decisive support condition'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah agreed: >Pakati-upanissaya paccaya or pakatu-panissaya paccaya or natural >decisive support condition has a wide range of conditions. Among them there include raga or lust, dosa or hatred, moha or ignorance, maana or conceit, ditthi or wrong-view, pattana or expectation are some part of natural decisive support condition. ... S: Yes, exactly. ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You agree this because this is the largest condition. Patthana dhamma is a wide subject. 24 conditions are just a summary of the conditions. Actually there are 24 different patthana texts and these 24 texts are not of each condition but their separate texts and description. Again when these 24 summary paccayas or conditions are further summarised there left only 4 paccayas or 4 conditions. 'Aarammanupanissaya kammatthi paccayesu ca sabbepi paccayaa samodhaanam gacchanti'. Aarammana, upanissaya, kamma, atthi paccayas are the most concise summary of all these conditions. You may notice that even among these 4 concise summary of conditions there are upanissaya and kamma. So it is not unusual that kamma and upanissaya are mixed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's old post as quoted by Sarah: >The difference is that kamma paccaya is related to akusala and kusala dhamma when it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. >If cetana cetasika arise along with kiriya cittas then those 19 cetasikas (sobhasaadhaarana cetasikas) do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya because it is kiriya and not akusala or kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We're not discussing kiriya cittas here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I already know that you are not discussing kiriya cittas. But I had to include them because those 19 cetasikas which are abyakata dhamma do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya but they serve as upanissaya paccaya as you mentioned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: With regard to the accumulation of kusala and akusala, how do you differentiate between these two conditions if you say none of the kamma patha factors need be present for naanaakkhanika-kamma-paccaya (asychronous kamma condition) to operate? …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As long as dhamma are not abyakata they will be kusala or akusala. If akusala or kusala why should they not have naanaakkhanika kamma condition or 'asynchronous kamma condition'. If I were thinking with hatred to destroy something or someone repeatedly in my mind, should these thought be freed from kamma condition. I was not killing anyone but was thinking killing someone. I even did not say a word for killing but still thinking to kill. Should those thoughts be freed from verdict of kamma paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: > .When you are > > just thinking with kusala or akusala then it is not kiriya and it > > does have kamma effect and it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. It > > does not need to be kamma patha to be repeated. …. S: To be repeated or accumulated, it doesn't need kamma patha, but I don't -- accidental snip-- by pakatupanissaya and other conditions, I believe. As I asked before, otherwise, why differentiate between kilesa vatta (round of defilements) and kamma vatta (round of kamma)? …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. There are 3 rounds or 3 vattas. Kilesa vatta or 'round of defilements', kamma vatta or 'round of kamma' and vipaka vatta or 'round of vipaka'. There have to be 3 separate rounds because they rotate and operate on their axle. Arahats stop kilesa vatta and kamma vatta. But they cannot stop vipaka vatta and this happen till cuti citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To dig up again about karuna of The Buddha: > > S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. > > I'm curious to read this thread! ... > Htoo: > No. I was just refering to the effect. Karuna just lasts a moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I'd have to think about this. So you're saying that when the Buddha's feet `came out' after his parinibbana, it was by the effect of his previous karuna, not the effect of Maha Kassapa's cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hard to say thing. Maha Kassapa did have such power. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Maybe a combination – this was only for Maha Kassapa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a special point. And I do not know. I have to agree with your statement of 'maybe a combination'. In Myanmar I heard a story that there were 3 brothers. One was Gotama Buddha-to-be, another is Maha Kassapa-to-be, and the third was Arimmetteyya Buddha-to-be. Their connections made Gotama Buddha exchanged 'His Pansuku Civara' or 'random robe' with Pippali's robe, which represented that Kassapa would be the representative of The Buddha Gotama. Even though there did Mahaparinibbana touching of the feet to the forehead of Kassapa seemed farewell to Kassapa. Again because of akusala, the corpse of Maha Kassapa could not be cremated and it has been still there as a corpse there somewhere onn this earth and the corpse will live Kappas long. Kassapa-to-be once arranged a playing ceremony of funeral to a dead animal and he had not finished the ceremony because he forgot to continue. For this even his corpse, which is the house of an arahat, could not be cremated by anyone and by any mean with a single only exception. The exception is that the Future Buddha, The Buddha Arimmetteyya, who was once the youngest of three brothers will arise and the corpse will be burnt on the palm of The Furture Buddha Arimmetteyya. These are hard to believe and difficult to prove and many will say this might be just a make-up story. But I did not make up anything. As once I said I just draw out from my old memories which were essentially impregnated by learned monks and Elderly. So 'coming out of feet' matter may well be Kassapa's power or The Buddha Gotama's predetermined power or both or others and I do not have any idea which was working at that time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: This is what it says in the comy to the Parinibbana Sutta (just before the funeral pyre caught fire by itself), ` "Then the Venerable Mahaakassapa went to Kusinaaraa …he saluted with his head": the elder, they say, having circumambulated the pyre, noticed on careful observation: "Here are the feet. " Then, standing near the feet, he attained the fourth jhana which is the basis of intuitive knowledge(abhi~n~naa-paada) and emerged from it. Then he determined, "Let the feet of the One of the TenPowers, decorated with the mark of a wheel with a thousand spokes, split in two the hundered pairs of cloth with layers of cotton, and the golden vessel, and the pyre of sandalwood, and be placed on my head." At his resolve, the feet emerged splitting in two those pairs of cloths and the other things, like the full moon coming out from amidst the clouds. The elder stretched out his hands like blossoming red lotuses wide, and tightly grasped the gold-coloured feet of the Teacher as far as the ankles, and put them on his noble head. So it is said, "uncovering his feet, he worshipped the feet of the Blessed One with his head".' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. This is the exact copy of what I read and heard many years ago. The only difference is that here you quoted in 'English'. I read in Myanmar, Pali and now in English. Essentially all versions are the same with little difference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- …. > > 2 teams of forces that support the king citta. Obviously saddha is > > like a leader and I appointed him as a commander (army and navy) and Dhamma. … S: I appreciate all these helpful efforts of yours. Please don't be concerned about mistakes with English and so on. Even we native speakers make them;-). Conveying the true Dhamma and discussing it as we are doing is what counts . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. Yes, of course. No one is perfect. You already showed me that as a native speaker you wrote below 'expaining all the terms'. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Metta, Sarah p.s As I said, I thought the sahajata paccaya discussion was v.useful. I particularly liked the first page of your intro, expaining all the terms. One detail I'm not sure of here: > > Htoo: "Cakkhu pasada rupa also serves as vatthu or ground for related > cittas and cetasikas. Throughout the process there are 14 vithi cittas." S: Surely, cakkhu pasada rupa is the vatthu or ground only for cakkhu vinnana citta (seeing consciousness), even though it's the door for the whole process? ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here is the wording problem. I used 'related cittas and cetasikas'. This means all cakkhu-vinnana cittas and their associated cetasikas that is 7 universal cetasikas in each of them. I also feel a bit unusual that while all other cittas have to house on hadaya vatthu these 10 panca-vinnana cittas have to house on panca-vatthus only. So in process-free and processing cittas series like below there are many cittas basing on hadaya but they stop homing on hadaya when panca-vinnana cittas arise. BBBBBB...BBBTCUPGSRVJJJJJJJDDB...BBBB B = bhavanga citta T = aTita-bhavanga citta C = bhavanga Calana citta U = bhavanga-Upaccheda citta P = Panca-dvara-avajjana citta G = Ghana-vinnana citta ( instead of Cakkhu-vinnana to avoid overlap) S = Sampaticchana citta R = santiRana citta V = Votthapana citta J = Javana citta D = taDarammana citta There is a gap in the whole flow of citta. That gap is panca-vinnana cittas who do not house on hadaya vatthu. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41593 From: Larry Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures nibbling on > the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare this > to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in the > same sutta. This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or subtle > consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does > contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to all > the cetasikas that arise? > > Larry > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html Hi Nina, One of the reasons I made this association is because in a mind-door process the object isn't present, even if the object is a memory. How does contact function in a mind-door process? Larry 41594 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > The 4th sutta was the main one you were questioning me about, I >believe. I had posted that one mainly because it speaks of "prescribing", and not >just "describing". But as regards conventional actions, look at the quote "Three >things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, >service to one's parents." These are three conventional actions, and obviously >so. > > I'd like to suggest that, with the knowledge of the teachings we have gained through study, we can say that what is being referred to here are 3 kinds of kusala. Take the first one, giving (dana). Dana may be performed through body, speech or even mind. Of course, every instance of dana through body or speech will have a name by which it can be described, and to that extent could be considered to be a conventional action of one kind or another, but the factor common to all instances of dana will be moments of kusala consciousness accompanied by certain mental factors. So what is recommended by the wise is the development of kusala of the kind that is dana (and the same for the other 2, going forth and service to one's parents). Jon 41595 From: Larry Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Larry > > Sorry for being too crytic at times because sometimes I just do not > have inspiration to write better, like a writer block ;-) > > I have find an extract from a sutta, SN III, Khandhasamyutta, > Nakulapita > > < perception as in self, or self as in perception. He live obsessed by > the notions: 'I am perception, perception is mine.' As he lieves > obsessed by these notions, that perceptions of his changes and > alters. With the change and alteration of perception, there arise in > him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair.>> > > My notes: In this sutta, Buddha states that when perceptions > associated with me, mine and myself. There arise suffering. In this > way we can see that perceptions associated with the three roots are > the cause of suffering. > > Then later in the same sutta, the Buddha said that <<"He does not > regard perception as self or self as possessing perception or > perection as in self or self as in perception.............there do > not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and > despair">> > > This indicates that perception will arise to a person who is > enlighted. By joining the two paragrah, a preception itself is not > the cause of suffering, the associated roots is the caused. > > Ken O Hi Ken, I follow your reasoning and agree with most of it, but I don't think this sutta is talking about sanna vipallasa. Rather, it is talking about identifying with sanna. This is a different, but related issue. As I see it the question is, is there misperception in a kusala citta process that arises without panna. I would say there is, but I agree that it does make sense to say sanna vipallasa only arises in an akusala process. Larry 41596 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Tep, op 30-01-2005 20:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: The Nyanatiloka's definition of the five > balas is that they are 'powers' of the 5 spirtual faculties (Indriya) by the > fact "that they are unshakable by their opposites" and they > represent "the aspect of firmness in the spiritual faculties". I am not > sure what unskable and firmness mean in the practical sense. N: the indriyas have been developed more, so that they have gained in strength. T: Nyanatiloka added, "According to A.V.15, the power becomes > manifest in the 4 qualities of the Stream-winner, in the 4 right efforts, in > the 4 foundations of mindfulness, in the 4 absorptions, (and) in the (full > comprehension of the) 4 Noble Truths". > > So, Nina, how does the power become manifest in the four foundations > of mindfulness, and especially in the "satipatthana", according to the > three meanings you have explained to me earlier? N: The indriyas and powers develop together. Many terms are used here, and they are useful to a certain extent, but we should not get lost in terms. We can verify the dhamma by being mindful of the characteristics of realities that appear one at a time, not by thinking of names. The 4 foundations of mindfulness as objects of sati and paññaa are nothing else but nama and rupa appearing one at a time through the six doors. As I see it, there is no need to think : is this mindfulness of body, that mindfulness of feeling. The question is: what characteristic appears now. The satipatthanasutta reminds us that whatever we are doing, whatever posture we assume, wherever we are, there are only nama elements and rupa elements and these can be object of awareness. We may be distracted and heedless, but this sutta brings us back to reality. I heard this morning:< When we are touching something it seems that hardness was there all the time, but when it appears it has just before arisen and it falls away. Also the rupa that is body-door at that moment: it seems that it is there all the time, but it has just arisen. > We never know what the next moment will bring. It is useful to remember this in daily life when we experience praise or blame. Who knows what vipaaka is next? Evenso with regard to the object of sati: we never know the next moment. The elements have no time to arrange for anything, they are merely conditioned, they have no owner. They arise because of a concurrence of conditions. In this way we come to know the meaning of anatta. I did not answer your Q how the powers become manifest in satipatthana. When there is unshakable confidence that this is the right way: mindfulness and understanding of whatever appears now. When there is firm understanding of what the right Path is. Nina. 41597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Dear Joop, Kel answered and I shall also add something. op 30-01-2005 12:33 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens > or hundreds or billions of years ? .... Or means 'used up": only > when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of > it? N: The cittas which perform a deed fall away immediately, but the good or bad intention which motivated the deed is accumulated, and this is actually kamma that is accumulated. We have to remember that life is a continuous stream of cittas, succeeding one another. Generally we think of kamma as a deed, but it is mental, it is intention or volition. Kamma that is accumulated can produce result much later. U Narada in Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 52, 53) explains: He explains that it is present like the latent tendencies. He says: He then gives some similes. A person borrows money and he has the responsibility to repay the loan. Evenso, Does this answer your question? Nina. 41598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Understanding, Right View, and Full Understanding Dear Tep, Again, I think we should not get lost in terms. There are so many synonyms for pañña. Pañña may be intelletual understanding, or insight that is developing, or direct realization of the truth. I can give other terms, like abhisamaya, realization. I will not analyse here all these terms. But I have not seen Sammaa-ñaa.na or sammaa-paññaa you mentioned. I have seen ñaa.na dassana. But it does not matter. I shall elaborate somewhat on pariñña. Kh Sujin gave a useful explanation. Insight is developed in stages, and each stage is like the passing of an examination. In between you have to review what you learnt so that you can pass the next stage. So are the pariññas. They are like the reviewing of what was realized at the moment a stage of insight was reached. Understanding of the known, of investigation, of abandoning. See Buddhist Dict. These are names, but they denote a development of understanding towards detachment. Nina. op 30-01-2005 21:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...:> > N: .... Panna is of different levels and in different contexts specific > terms are used. (snipped) >.... The term right understanding in the samma-panna sense seems to be > similar to the term "full understanding" (parinna). 41599 From: Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, jon (and TG) - In a message dated 2/1/05 9:07:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > That's just it. Names and meanings are mind-created and do not arise. > As you read this message to yourself, what is arising, following the > seeing and visible object, is thinking consciousness only. This > thinking consciousness is able to 'decipher' letters from the visible > data then words and then meaning, but none of those thoughts actually > arise in the sense of have any existence separate from the moment of > thinking consciousness of which they are the object. > > ======================== Jon, everything that arises does so only momentary. Moreover, everything that arises does so due to conditions, and mental construction is just a category of condition. On the basis of what you have written, names and meanings seem no less real than anything else! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)