44000 From: "alpha16draconis" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2005 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? alpha16draconis I found it a reference to it in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada pg. 142 Cittuppada, literally means a genesis of Citta. Here the term means consciousness itself. In other instances it implies the collection of mental states together with consciousness. I think it is just a synonym for citta, but another text translated it as state of consciousness, which confused me. Stephen. 44001 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends, Precepts, Books, and sayings christine_forsy... Hello Jon, all, Thank you for your additional explanation, but, doesn't it seem that something more than a fleeting mind moment is meant in these suttas ... about being an Actor, about being a Soldier; about dealing in business of weapons, living beings, meat, intoxicants, and poisons; and long lists of the varieties of Wrong Livelihood for Contemplatives http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-002.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-003.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-177.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html#livelihood metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Chris > > Thanks for the report and impressions of Bangkok. I'm glad you found it > useful, as I did too. > > Just a further comment on the right livelihood issue. > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > Well, have to say I still don't quite understand the Right > > Livelihood part ... Jon tried to explain to me about how 'you can > > work in an abattoir and still have RL ... in all the moments that > > you aren't actually slaughtering an animal, or performing other > > akusala ..' > > Right speech, r. action and r. livelihood are all restraints, that is to > say, they occur at the moment of restraint from wrong speech, action or > livelihood. > > In the case of r. livelihood in particular, this is restraint of speech or > action that occurs in the furtherance of one's livelihood. > > Where a person's livelihood is slaughtering animals, it is inevitable that > there will be a lot of moments of wrong livelihood. But the pursuit of > any livelihood also involves, for example, opportunities for > honesty/dishonesty, so a moment of restraint from dishonesty by the person > would be a moment of right livelihood, regardless of the nature of the > occupation being followed. > > Conversely, a person may be engaged in a very commendable occupation, but > have poor speech and general moral conduct, in which case there could be > many moments of wrong livelihood. > > I hope this is clearer. > > Jon 44002 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in the City gazita2002 Hello Rob, A profitable time, and I came home with a CD of the whole three days. Ummm, I have seen The Matrix and I do remember thinking while watching, that there were reminders for me about some aspect or other of Dhamma, but cannot now remember what. I guess dhamma reminders need not be limited to actually listening to dhamma. A point that I think many of us forget or at least, for me, at the times when clinging to trying to understand a 'sticky point'. Right understanding has to arise as naturally as the clinging arises - anywhere and anytime given the right conditions. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Sounds like you had a profitable time. > To me The Matrix movie gives a analogy of what insight is. > Robert > > 44003 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: Dhamma in the City rjkjp1 Send IM --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > > days. > Ummm, I have seen The Matrix and I do remember thinking while > watching, that there were reminders for me about some aspect or other > of Dhamma, but cannot now remember what. > I guess dhamma reminders need not be limited to actually > ---- HI Azita, One nice scene is when Neo returns to the matrix for the first time . He sees a cafe where he used to frequent and says something about how real it still seems - even though he knows it is an illusion. He asks Trinity what that means (his feeling). Trinity: "It doesn't mean anything, just that the Matrix can't show you who you really are". So we live our lives in this conceptual world, trying to make our mark (or just trying to survive), but all our actions are only expressions of of avijja (ignorance) , and Tanha(greed). Those are the elements we need to understand, along with the other realities. robertk 44004 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:15am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 dear Nina and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 01-04-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > N: Firm sanna is the proximate cause of sati of satipatthana. We learn > > again and again about nama and rupa, about their different > > characteristics. And when we listened and considered a great deal, and > > intellecual understanding has been accumulated sufficiently, it can be > > immediately known when nama appears to the sati and when rupa. No need > > to say it or define it. > > Azita: On reading this again, another aspect of Sanna occurred to me, in relation to the 5th precept - refrain from intoxicants. If it takes firm rememberance of intellectual understanding, to be a conditon for sati to arise in some future time, then the taking of intoxicants hinders that remembrance, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the being, I suppose. What do you think? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 44005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jonoabb Hi Charles --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Jon, > > This is a tough one (the idea) so I understand why you could be feeling > lost. > > "In a nut shell" > > The point of not suffering even though there is clinging is based on the > principle of transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening > one. This takes wisdom concentration, and morality/basic goodness. > > An example of this is the practice of single pointed meditation that is > fixed on an object. We are actually clinging to the object. > > Does that help?? Thanks. Two questions of clarification, please: 1) You mention 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one'. Can you put that in more specific terms (preferably by reference to something in the suttas or other texts)? 2) You seem to be saying that single-pointed concentration on an object must involve clinging. If so, what do you understand by the development of samatha/jhana? Jon 44006 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Hi Charles --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi Jon > ... > If you remove consciousness you could not tell if you were thinking, nor > would you be able to sense objects. I would think, you would have no > reason to think since without consciousness there is no-awareness. And > keep in mind that consciousness and concoting/thinking are seperate > aggregets. To my understanding, 'thinking' is a conventional term for a particular kind of consciousness, that is to say, vinnana and its accompanying cetasikas, thus, all 4 nama-khandhas. Jon 44007 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "alpha16draconis" wrote: > > I found it a reference to it in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada > pg. 142 > > Cittuppada, literally means a genesis of Citta. Here the term means > consciousness itself. In other instances it implies the collection of > mental states together with consciousness. > > I think it is just a synonym for citta, but another text translated it > as state of consciousness, which confused me. > > Stephen. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding 'cittuppaada', it is made up of 'citta' and 'uppaada'. Uppada has a middle 'a' and this 'a' has a bar over it and pronounced as 'aa' which is a long vowel. So I spell it as 'uppaada'. Citta is '' ceto + atta ''. Atta is existence. Ceto means 'mind' or mind-related. Citta is a moment of consciousness which exists(atta) as a mental(ceto) phenomenon. Uppaada means 'arising' 'appearing' 'coming into existence'. Examples of 'cittuppaada'. When a man is angry, there is a series of akusala vithi vara called 'dosa javana'. There are 7 successive dosa mula cittas. So there are 7 cittuppaadas. There is little difference between 'citta' and cittuppaada'. But they are not synonyms. Cittuppaada indicates 'occurrence' while citta indicate 'existence' of mental body. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 150 and Tiika nilovg Hi Larry, op 04-04-2005 02:14 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: What is vipaka chanda? N: Chanda does not arise with ahetuka cittas, thus not with ahetuka vipaakacittas, such as seeing, receiving-consciousness etc. It accompanies all sobhana cittas, thus also mahaavipakacittas, mahaa-kiriyacittas. As we learnt, mahaa-vipakacittas are accompanied by wholesome roots, sobhana hetus, they are the results of mahaa-kusala kamma. Rebirth-consciousness that is mahaa-vipakacitta is accompanied by alobha and adosa and it may be accompanied by paññaa. This kind of vipaakacitta is also accompanied by chanda. This is not an active wish to do, but merely result. We have to remember Vis. Ch XIV, 100: The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they occur, they have the meaning of being active.> Nina. 44009 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends, Precepts, Books, and sayings jonoabb Hi Chris I think the problem here is one of context. I took your question to be about Right Livelihood as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Suttas about 'types of business that should not be engaged in' are on a slightly different, though related, point (I think you'll find they do not actually equate following a specific occupation with Wrong Livelihood of the NEP). For those of us who are fortunate enough not to be engaged in any of the 'types of business that should not be engaged in', questions of Right Livelihood may still arise (some examples: dishonesty regarding hours of attendance or reason for absence from work, unauthorised use of employer's property for personal matters, mis-statement of fact in report sheet, bad-mouthing of colleague for personal advancement, etc). Jon --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > Hello Jon, all, > > Thank you for your additional explanation, but, doesn't it seem that > something more than a fleeting mind moment is meant in these > suttas ... about being an Actor, about being a Soldier; about > dealing in business of weapons, living beings, meat, intoxicants, > and poisons; and long lists of the varieties of Wrong Livelihood > for Contemplatives > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-002.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-003.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-177.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html#livelihood > > > metta and peace, > Chris 44010 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? nilovg Hi Stephen and Jon, op 04-04-2005 05:01 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@...: > > Cittuppada is not a term I'm familiar with, but you may find something of > interest in the message at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12008?ordered=1&simpl e=> 1 N: I met this term also. Dhammasangani Pali: 1418, not translated in English. But Sarah has it. Which dhammas are present objects... dasa cittuppaadaa... I am inclined to see it as cittas that have arisen. Htoo has a very good explanation, thank you, Htoo. I look at T.A. (Co to Abh. Sangaha, p. 67): I think the emphasis is on that it arises. And also: it cannot arise without cetasikas. Maybe Mike would perhaps look under consciousness, arising of consciousness at the index. There is more, but I have little time today, almost off. Nina. 44011 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 150 and Tiika jonoabb Hi Nina Many thanks for this post, which is full of very interesting material. Of special interest to me is the close connection between chanda and right effort (and yoniso manasikara). We may be inclined to see an intention to perform kusala as being a necessary or useful supportive factor, but I think the passages (including the one from STA) make it clear that chanda is the factor that performs the function in question. Jon --- nina wrote: ... > Tiika: Therefore he said ŒIt should be regarded as the extending of the > mental hand in the apprehending of an object.¹ When this has arisen with > kusala dhammas it is called kusala chanda, because it has originated > from right attention (yoniso manasikaara). > > N: When there is right attention to the object, the javana cittas are > kusala and thus accompanied by kusala chanda. > We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 57) which > translates chanda as purpose: is > the state of wanting an object. It has the characteristic of desiring to > act. Thus it is said that it is like the reaching out of the hand of > consciousness to take hold of an object. At the time of offering alms, > it is > wanting something that can be offered, like an archer wanting to take up > arrows in order to shoot.> 44012 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? jonoabb Nina, Stephen, Htoo Just a further reference or two I've turned up (apologies for any repetition of points already made). 'Cittuppadapa' is the name of one of the Divisions (Kanda) of the Dhammasnagani: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tipintr4.htm The compound ceta cittuppada is regarded by some as a synonym for citta, mana, mano, vinnana: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon1.htm In the context of the paramis, it is used to refer to the act of consciousness that constitutes an aspiration for Buddhahood: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Stephen and Jon, > N: I met this term also. Dhammasangani Pali: 1418, not translated in > English. But Sarah has it. 44013 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: What is citta? htootintnaing Dear Tep and DSG members, Actually, this post 'What is citta' is just an old post at my own web site, which I frequently linked. It is at 'www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html'. A total of 78 pages have been written. I will answer you questions below. Tep wrote: Dear Friend Htoo (and other DSG members) - I think your message (#43934) is one of the many reprints you have made on this subject. May I suggest that you kindly consider expanding the text to include answers to the following questions: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: It is the nature that is aware of its object. No other dhamma or no other nature can know anything including themselves. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- T: Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because it is its own nature. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: A citta arises, it passes away immediately after its arising. > Another citta arises, and again it falls away. Next arises and dies > out immediately. This kind of uninterruptedness is the manifestation > of citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- T: Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because it is its own manifestation. Example; your mind is not static. This is always right. Even if you have jhanas, your mind is still not static. One citta arises and then immediately falls away. Without interruption, there arise another citta. Once U Han Tun (Triplegem member) posted at Triplegem that-- 'He was looking at a painting. Suddenly he hearda familiar voice of his friend, who was calling him. He was shocked to know the 'successiveness of 2 different cittas' in a short time. He equated that phenomena as 'cuti citta of last life and patisandhi citta of current life'. Your question 'Why?' has to be answered as 'because it is its own manifestation'. I will have no answer if you ask 'why cakkhuvinnana sees rupaarammana'? :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: And what makes it behave that way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is citta niyama. No one or nothing makes it behave that way. When niyama dhamma are not understood, some appoint God as if God is creating such and such thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: There are 89 cittas in total. T: How could this statement be practically (experimentally) verified? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you want to practically verify you will need to have experienced all cittas in this life with the exception of 9 cittas, which are 5 rupavipaka cittas and 4 arupavipaka cittas. These 9 cittas are not yours and these are also not of The Buddha. The Buddha in His Buddhahood did not have these 9 cittas. These 9 cittas are patisandhi, bhavanga citta and cuti citta of brahmas. Leaving these 9 cittas there left 80 cittas. You can experience these 80 if you are arduously, diligently try to have all 8 jhanas and all 8 magga cittas, which means you will have to be a jhanalabhii arahat to experience all these. If you do not believe, verify yourself my trying to become jhanalabhi arahat. As jhanalabhi there will have abhinna. So you will have see or perceive other bahiddhika cittas as well. This is for verification. Otherwise verification will have to be less strong. But the other way to see these cittas are by taking your mind as a base and then analyse them as far as you can. Example cittas have been written in my old posts and I have been posting them with different heading. 1. You can have lobha citta or lobha mula citta with happy mind and unprompted and without wrong view. 2. sometimes with wrong view 3. sometimes with prompt like lobha arise only after stimulation. 4. sometimes you may not have gross happiness and your feeling may be just indifferent. 5. likewise dosa cittas have 2 forms. One is unpromptednness and another is with prompt. 6. moha mula cittas have 2 kinds. One is spreading mind and another is suspicious mind. And many other cittas. When you have 1st jhana, you will experience 1st jhana or 1st jhana rupakusala citta. If you end up with 1st jhana and you become an arahat, then you will experience 1st jhana rupakiriya citta. Likewise 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th rupakusala and rupakiriya will be experienced. The same applies to 4 arupakusala cittas and 4 arupakiriya cittas. You will never have 5 rupavipaka cittas and 4 arupavipaka cittas. When you experienced arahatta phala citta, then you will already have experienced all lower 7 lokuttara cittas and they will never arise again but arahatta phala will arise when you were in arahatta-phalka- samapatti. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. There are 4 arupa jhanas. So there are 4 arupakusala cittas. And there are 4 arupakiriya cittas. They resultant cittas arupavipaka cittas are patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta of arupa brahma and not of deva or human or other brahmas or other beings. The same applies to 5 rupa jhanas. As there are 5 rupa jhana, there are 5 rupakusala cittas. If arahats have attained rupa jhanas, then there may arise 5 rupakiriya cittas. But rupavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas, bhavangacittas, and cuti cittas of rupa brahmas and not of human or deva or arupa brahmas or other beings. SO there are a) 8 lokuttara cittas b)12 arupavacara cittas c)15 rupavacara cittas -------------------- 35 cittas are higher cittas and difficult to attain. 89 - 35 = 54 cittas are kaamaavacara cittas. By analysis you may (or may not be) become happy to accept these cittas. 54 kaamaavacara cittas are nothing but those cittas at arise at 5 panca-dvara of cakkhu pasada, sota pasada, ghana pasada, jivha pasada, and kaya pasada. How do they become 54 ? At cakkhu dvara there are 46 cittas. At sota dvara there are 46 cittas. At ghana dvara there are 46 cittas. At jivha dvara there are 46 cittas. At kaya dvara there are 46 cittas. At cakkhu pasada there are 46 cittas that can arise at. 44 cittas are the same at other dvaras. But 2 new cittas at each new dvara. They are 2. 2 cittas of sotavinnana cittas(1 kusalavipaka and 1 akusalavipaka) 3. 2 cittas of ghanavinnana cittas ,, 4. 2 cittas of jivhavinnana cittas ,, 5. 2 cittas of kayavinnana cittas ,, 46 cittas at cakkhu dvara + 8 extra cittas at 4 other dvaras make 54 total kaamaavacara cittas ( 46 + 8 = 54 ). How do they become 46 cittas. Example; cakkhudvara vithi vara ( cakkhuvinnana vithi vara ) a) bhavanguppaccheda citta ( 19 bhavanga cittas ) b) pancadvara avajjana citta ( 1 ahetuka kiriya citta) c) cakkhu vinnana citta ( 2 cakkhu vinnana cittas) d) sampaticchana citta (2 sampaticchana cittas) e) santirana citta (3 santirana cittas) f) votthapana citta ( 1 manodvara avajjana citta ) g) javana citta(29 kama javana citta_12 aku,8 mahaku,8 mahaki,1 hasi) h) tadaarammana cittas (11 cittas, 8 mahavi and 3 santirana) -------------------------------- 46 cittas a) 10/19 bhavanga cittas ( 2 santirana, 8 mahavi for kama satta) 9 cittas are for rupa and arupa brahmas b) 1 pancadvaravajjana citta c) 2 cakkhu vinnana cittas d) 2 sampaticchana cittas e) 1/3 santirana cittas f) 1 manodvara avajjana citta g) 29 kaama javana cittas h) 0/11 tadarammana citta ------- 46 cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: How is such fact (given that it is true) useful for insight knowledge development? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you really know lobha mula citta in its fullest essence, it will not develop in you mind at all. This is just an example how insight may develop in your mind because of studying of abhidhamma. But just studying and reflecting will not be enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: If you could answer the above questions in a straightforward fashion, then the subject "What is citta?" would become more interesting (at least to me). Kindest regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have answered straight forward. I hope these help you develop a good mind. With Metta, Htoo Naing > > ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > From four realities, first, citta needs to be understood. It is the > > nature that is aware of its object. No other dhamma or no other > > nature can know anything including themselves. But citta can know > > everything possible including cittas. > > 44014 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) htootintnaing Dear Kel, Mike and All, Thanks Kel for your explanation. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > I find it useful to remember it's 3 value logic, not 2. Your > question make it sound like you think other jhanas can be > accompanied by miccha-samadi. All akusala won't be accompanied by > samma-anything. Some are accompanied by miccha and some doesn't > have either. Hence the 3 value are like: pleasant, unpleasant and > neutral feelings. By the same token all kusala won't be accompanied > by miccha-anything. Some might lack samma but it falls > into "neutral" category which lacks both. Technically though all > kusala cittas are accompanied by sati. Also all jhana cittas have > panna, only 4/8 maha-kusala cittas lack panna. > > - kel > > > covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas-- > with > > paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if > unaccompanied by > > sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? 44015 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) htootintnaing Mike wrote: Hi Htoo and Nina, Thanks Htoo, I found this very helpful and interesting too. Sorry if you've covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas- -with paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if unaccompanied by sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? Thanks in advance, mike -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Mike, I have a feeling regarding your question. What I understand is that you asked '2nd or 4th arupa jhana while taking paramattha object' may not still have sammaa-samaadhi and sammaa- sati of Noble Eightfold Path. 2 teachers of Bodhisatta had 2nd arupa jhana. The sammaadhi they has is good. But their sammaadhi is not of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma even though they are not micchaa-samaadhi. I hope this makes clear. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44016 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: Vipassana / Tep htootintnaing Dear Ken H and Tep, Sorry for my butting in. Duutinga are the practice that suit to individuals who have different caritas or habit. Lustful beings have to practise differently from angry-typed beings and so on. There are 13 duutingas and they are described in visuddhimagga. With Metta, Htoo Naing -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thank you for your encouraging words. I am glad to accept your > suggestion to re-examine the issues. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > T: > For this mail I have just one concern about your opinion on > the "jhana meditators". > > KH: Isn't it true that sitting for long periods with a straight back > while living in a cemetery or at the base of a tree applies only to > jhana meditators? 44017 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:05am Subject: Atthakatha, tiikaa, anutiikaa & ? madhutiikaa htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > you make me hungry for anutiika, but where to get it? Can you add from it? > Translating it from Burmese? That would be wonderful. > Nina. > op 02-04-2005 12:31 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Thanks for your reply. Tiika is good. Anutiika is also good to learn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Atthakatha and tiikaa are ancient commentaries and subcommentaries and I believe they were passed over by genuine arahats bhikkhus. Even all tiikaa are not available in full translations including Myanmar, English and others. Anutiikaa are finer subcommentaries that arose round about 3rd and 4th Buddhists' Councils and they were written by learned and practising bhikkhus and all are in Pali. Still there are other tiikaas. I remember one of my teacher said there are 'madhutiikaas'. It is also 1000 years old. With respect, Htoo Naing 44018 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread (296) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 non-material absorptive stillings or 4 arupa jhanas. 1. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa jhana 2. vinnaanancaayatana arupa jhana 3. akincinnaayatana arupa jhana 4. n'evasannaanaasannaayatana arupa jhana Dhamma Threads is currently discussing on beings and cittas in arupa brahma bhumis or non-material realms. Just before discussing on 'cittas in arupa brahmas' 12 different cittas of arupavacara cittas will be explained here. There are 4 arupa jhanas. Please see above and previous posts. When human beings who are intelligent enough to attain arupa jhanas or when deva beings who are intelligent enough to attain arupa jhana or when rupa brahma attain arupa jhana or when arupa brahma are in arupa jhana-samapatti there develop these 4 arupa jhanas. When such development happen, cittas in such events are all arupakusala cittas. As kusala cittas they will have the power of giving rise to arupavipaka cittas later in next lives if they are reborn in arupa brahma realms. As there are 4 arupa jhanas, there are 4 arupakusala cittas. They are 1. akasanancayatana arupakusala citta 2. vinnanancayatana arupakusala citta 3. akincinnayatana arupakusala citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupakusala citta. When arahats have attained arupa jhanas and when they are in arupa jhana-samapatti, the cittas in that jhana-samapatti will all be arupakiriya cittas. As there are 4 arupa jhanas there will be 4 arupakiriya cittas. They are 1. akasanancayatana arupakiriya citta 2. vinnannancayatana arupakiriya citta 3. akincinnayatana arupakiriya citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupakiriya citta. Any one of human beings or deva beings or rupa brahma beings, all of whom have attained arupa jhana and die with that arupa jhana will be reborn with their respective arupavipaka cittas. If arupa brahmas die with arupakusala cittas they will be reborn in the same arupa brahma realm or to higher realms but not to lower arupa brahma realms. When beings are reborn in 4 separate arupa brahma realms, their citta will be one of these 4 arupavipaka cittas. 1. akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta 2. vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta 3. akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupavipaka citta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44019 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (297) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 non-material absorptive stillings or 4 arupa jhanas. 1. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa jhana Aa-kaa-saa-nan-caa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the 'boundless space' 2. vinnaanancaayatana arupa jhana Vin-naa-nan-caa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the 'boundless consciousness' 3. aakincinnaayatana arupa jhana Aa-kin-cin-naa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the sphere of 'nothingness' 4. n'evasannaanaasannaayatana arupa jhana Ne-va-san-naa-naa-san-naa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the sphere neither perception nor non-perception'. All these 4 non-material absorption or 4 arupa jhana are cittas. They are absorptive mind or absorptive consciousness. These jhana cittas are cittas that frequently arise in arupa brahma realms even though they may also arise in human beings, deva beings and rupa brahma beings. As they are more frequent in arupa brahmas they are called arupavacara cittas. Arupa brahmas are reborn with 1. akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 1st arupa bhumi or akasanancayatana bhumi. 2. vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 2nd arupa bhumi or vinnanancayatana bhumi. 3. akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 3rd arupa bhumi or akincinnayata bhumi. 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 4th arupa bhumi or nevasannanasannayatana bhumi. As soon as they are reborn these 4 cittas each perform as patisandhi citta for each of 4 realms of arupa brahmas. These arupa patisandhi or non-material rebirth consciousness are immediately and uninterruptedly followed by 1st bhavanaga citta, which has the same characteristics and the same accompaniments as patisandhi citta or linking consciousnesness or rebirth consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44020 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:54am Subject: Akusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, After discussion on 4 of 8 lobha mula citta or 8 attachment-rooted consciousness, the remaining lobha cittas or attachment-consciousness will be discussed along with 2 dosa mula cittas or 2 aversion-rooted consciousness and 2 moha mula cittas or 2 ignorance-rooted consciousness. The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is listening his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly happy because he does not fully understand adult's speech. But as there is lobha he is listening actively. There is wrong view as he does not know kamma well. And no one is urging him to listen. The sixth lobha citta is seen as in case of a child while he is receiving a present and being told that it is for him. He is not particularly happy. This is upekkha. He does not know kamma. But he is told that the present is for him. Before he hears this, lobha citta does not arise. When told, it arises. This is sasankharika or being urged. The seventh lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of money. He is not particularly happy as this amount of money is nothing to do with somanassa. He knows kamma well. No one is urging him in his action. The eighth lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of other people's money when he is told that the notes he is counting is for him. Amount is not much and he has to be urgerd. So this is sasankharika lobha citta. There are 2 dosa mula cittas. They are _ 1.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam asankharika cittam 2.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam sasankharika cittam. Domanassa means unpleasant feeling in mind. Patigha means destroying, hurting, impinging, hitting. The first dosa citta can be seen in most of dosa cittas where people apparently behaving aggressively like killing, hitting, pounding, kicking, swearing etc etc. The second dosa citta can be seen in the case when a man is told something and he did not hear that. A friend told that it was you who is foolish. Then he becomes angry. He has to be prompted. So this is sasankharika citta. There are 2 moha mula cittas. They are_ 1.upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha samyutta cittam 2.upekkha sahagatam uddhcca samyutta cittam The first moha citta is seen in a case of undecisiveness when a person cannot decide right or wrong and he has suspicion on the matter. The second moha citta can be seen in most people while they are wandering thinking fancily. This can be seen especially in case of grief reaction. When someone lost, then there is restlessness and people concerned are upseted. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44021 From: "mnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? mlnease Hi Nina, Stephen and Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? > Maybe Mike would perhaps look under consciousness, arising of consciousness > at the index. There is more, but I have little time today, almost off. I'll be glad to when I have time but have to be off early and back late myself today through Wednesday--I'll get back to you when time permits. mike 44022 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (298) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as reborn in one of 4 arupa brahma realms, the first citta in beings in any of 4 arupa brahma realms is patisandhi citta or rebirth- consciousness. These rebirth-consciousness or patisandhi citta do the job of linking. The cittas that do the job of linking here are 1. akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of 'boundless space' 2. vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of 'boundless consciousness' 3. akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of 'nothingness' 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of neither 'perception' not 'non-perception' What do they link? Akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanaga citta of akasanancayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanaga citta or life-continuing consciousness of vinnanancayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanaga citta or life continuing consciousness of akincinnayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Nevasanna-na-sannayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanga citta of nevasannanasannayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Bhavanga cittas ( here arupavipaka cittas ) have the same characterisitics, the same accompanying dhamma, the same object, the same footing or the same ground as in case of patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness (here arupavipaka cittas ). The only difference is the function. Patisandhi citta or rebirth- consciousness does the job of linking as mentioned above while bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness does the job of continuation of life as there are still kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44023 From: "mnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) mlnease Hi Htoo, ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:50 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) > Dear Mike, I have a feeling regarding your question. > > What I understand is that you asked '2nd or 4th arupa jhana while > taking paramattha object' may not still have sammaa-samaadhi and > sammaa- > sati of Noble Eightfold Path. > > 2 teachers of Bodhisatta had 2nd arupa jhana. The sammaadhi they has > is > good. But their sammaadhi is not of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma even though > they are not micchaa-samaadhi. > > I hope this makes clear. This does help and makes sense I think, thanks--I'll look into it further and get back to you if I have more questions. mike 44024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) nilovg Hi Mike, true jhana has to be accompanied by sati and paññaa, otherwise it is not real jhana, but only what may be erroneaously taken for jhana. Nina. op 03-04-2005 20:44 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > Thanks Htoo, I found this very helpful and interesting too. Sorry if you've > covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas--with > paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if unaccompanied by > sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? 44025 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta and abhidhamma. nilovg Hi TG, Yes, very necessary to also read and consider suttas, I could not agree more. I like your remarks, I just thought of the sense objects this morning. We learn in the Abhidhamma about the objects experienced through the six doors, but we have to apply this in life through the development of insight. We had on the Pali list the sutta: Here is AN 6.01.05,6 and 7 A"nguttaranikaayo The Gradated Collection Chakkanipaatapaa.li Group of Sixes 1. Aahuneyyavaggo Group One: Worthiness of Adoration 5. Pa.thama-aajaaniiyasutta.m ...Here, o Bhikkhus, a king's lucky, thoroughbred horse is patient in regards to sights, patient in regards to sounds, patient in regards to smells, patient in regards to tastes, patient in regards to sensations, and is endowed with beauty. ... Here, o Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is patient in regards to sights, patient in regards to sounds, patient in regards to smells, patient in regards to tastes, patient in regards to sensations, patient in regards to ideas.... The PtS transl: he endures these objects. The sutta gives us an extra stimulant to be aware now of the objects appearing through the six doors. These objects are not always so pleasant. There were conditions for me to experience an unpleasant object, some harsh speech, but the sutta reminded me to face it with understanding. We cannot yet escape from nama and rupa! You use the word sensibility, true, the sutta reminds us: all this is our life now. All we learn about the sensedoors are to be applied by developing insight. Nina. op 04-04-2005 03:17 schreef TGrand458@... op TGrand458@...: > I have respect for the Abhidhamma as being an ingenius systemization of the > Buddha's teaching. I take Abhidhamma as being an assist to understanding the > Suttas. The Buddha's teaching in the Suttas have a very carefully crafted > sensibility to them that is lacking in Abhidhamma. If one studies Abhidhamma > without deeply ingraining the overall sensibility found in the Suttas, I > believe > it is very easy to go off on a wrong tangent. (Its easy enough anyway.) 44026 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Azita - Thank you for initiating the discussion. It is true that firm rememberance - an aspect of sanna - is weakened by intoxicants like alcoholic drinks. Some friends of mine can drink several glasses (even mixing drinks of different kinds) and still can drive back home safely. I think they might counterbalance the alcohol effect by sati on the danger of drunk driving. So, in them the sanna of danger arose and the alcoholic effect was lessened. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > dear Nina and Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > op 01-04-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > > N: Firm sanna is the proximate cause of sati of satipatthana. We > learn > > > again and again about nama and rupa, about their different > > > characteristics. And when we listened and considered a great > deal, and > > > intellecual understanding has been accumulated sufficiently, it > can be > > > immediately known when nama appears to the sati and when rupa. No > need > > > to say it or define it. > > > > > Azita: On reading this again, another aspect of Sanna occurred to > me, in relation to the 5th precept - refrain from intoxicants. If it > takes firm rememberance of intellectual understanding, to be a > conditon for sati to arise in some future time, then the taking of > intoxicants hinders that remembrance, to a greater or lesser degree > depending on the being, I suppose. What do you think? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 44027 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Times TGrand458@... In a message dated 4/3/2005 8:10:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonoabb@... writes: Your closing remark is a point well made. The crux of the matter here is whether the Buddha taught the importance of knowing as they are the different kinds of consciousness and their objects. Jon Hi Jon I agree with this statement. What we may not completely agree on is -- what the Buddha wanted us to know about them... or ... in how to know them so that samsara is overcome. TG 44028 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:03pm Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) kenhowardau Dear Htoo, Thank you for continuing the discussion: -------------------------------------- H: > When I saw the sentence 'Breathing in long, he knows he breathes in long', I was shocked. Like you I did not accept in my mind regarding that sentence. If you re-read 'Vipassana' post (the source of this discussion) you will see what I have written on the whole matter. --------------------------------------- You agreed in an earlier post that vipassana was not a 'set of steps to be followed,' and so I know that you look beyond conventional understanding when studying suttas. A conventional understanding assumes that satipatthana begins with mindfulness of concepts, which leads to mindfulness of nama and rupa, which leads to mindfulness of Nibbana. In fact, there is only the present moment: there is no time for preliminary steps. --------------------------- KH: > > You should also have stressed that *strenuous* practice is not > > good effort. Htoo: > Is Venerable Ananda's *strenuous* practice not good effort? He was already a sotapanna at that time while he was strenuously practising vipassana in order to rocket up to arahatta magga. > ---------------------------- I was suggesting that anyone who strives (in the conventional sense) to attain enlightenment is not on the right path. As I understand the suttas, striving involves the idea of a self who can be annihilated, while laziness (standing still) involves the idea of a self who can live forever. The Middle Way is kusala citta with joy or equanimity plus right understanding. Right effort is not strenuous in the sense of being burdensome: it is "lovely at the beginning, lovely at the middle and lovely at the end." ---------------- KH: > > An example is someone sitting stoically and happy with his or her own sitting power. It might be subtle lobha and it might also be wrong view (of control over dhammas - belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual). Htoo: > I will leave this part. ---------------- If you don't want to talk about, I won't badger you. However, you were a little bit critical of people who did not practise sitting meditation - suggesting there was subtle lobha for intellectual understanding. I was suggesting that the danger can be even greater for people who do practise sitting meditation. ------------------ KH: > > You will have noticed that the majority of DSG members believe in formal sitting. Htoo: > If so, I will be really happy. But what I noticed was some were in the middle of lokiiya mess like 'driving' 'swimming'. ------------------ Do you mean some go about their normal daily-life activities? I think that is the only option - considering vipassana is 'right understanding of the present moment' and there is no preliminary set of steps. -------------------------- H: > I think you are talking 'daily life vipassana'. But when I wrote on 'Vipassana' post, I just went through mahasatipatthana sutta and just fit with my vipassana experience. In the later part 'sight and sound' will be involved. But what I discussed was that 'when concentrating on movement phenomena of the body all other sense doors are apparently shut. I did not say 'sight and sound' has to be thrown away. > -------------------------- I find the first part of the sutta hard to follow. That's why I would like you to write about it again - identifying the individual cittas involved. But doesn't that first part describe the normal daily life of bhikkhu who has mastered jhana (with breath as object) and who practises jhana and vipassana in tandem? ------------------------------------------------- H: > > > Did The Buddha say 'Vipassana must be allowed to arise > > > naturally at any time in daily life'? KH: > > See my above quote from the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Htoo: > You did not quote a sutta. -------------------------------------------------- I was referring to where I quoted: " . . . when looking toward & looking away...when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, . . ." There is no supernatural power by which we can decree, "Let there be vipassana now!" So a bhikkhu carries on as normal, allowing right understanding to arise to the extent that conditions permit. ------------------- Htoo: > Anaagam Saya Thet Kyi taught Sayagyi U Ba Khin. Sayagyi U Ba Khin taught SN Goenka. But I have no idea why you said 'it is contrary to the Dhamma'. Which words, which part of instructions or teachings are contrary to the Dhamma? ------------------- I have only heard audiotapes and seen a couple of videotapes of SN Goenka, and he struck me as a wise, witty, charismatic, compassionate man. I know now, however, that he made the same mistake that all of us are prone to make when we cannot see the Middle Way: he believed in trying to control dhammas. In particular, he taught formal meditation. :-) Ken H 44029 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) kenhowardau Hi Carl, I am flattered to be mentioned in the same sentence as Htoo. Unfortunately, however, my Abhidhamma studies are still at the introductory level. Enthusiasm for anatta gives me the confidence to mix it with the best of them. :-) Ken H > Carl writes: I hope this discussion will continue. I very much > appreciate Htoo posting "vipassana". The strong points being raised > are very instructive to me as a lay student. I would wish for no one > to become frustrated in views. It is good (for me) to see such > learned Abhidhamists "butting heads" over something as important as > vipassana "practice". 44030 From: "alpha16draconis" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? alpha16draconis > Htoo Naing, Thank you for clarifying that distinction. Stephen. 44031 From: "mnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) mlnease Hi Nina, Thanks, with Htoo's comments this is beginning to make sense. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) Hi Mike, true jhana has to be accompanied by sati and paññaa, otherwise it is not real jhana, but only what may be erroneaously taken for jhana. Nina. op 03-04-2005 20:44 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > Thanks Htoo, I found this very helpful and interesting too. Sorry if you've > covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas--with > paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if unaccompanied by > sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? 44032 From: "mlnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) mlnease Hi Kel, Please excuse the slow response: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > I find it useful to remember it's 3 value logic, not 2. Your > question make it sound like you think other jhanas can be > accompanied by miccha-samadi. All akusala won't be accompanied by > samma-anything. Some are accompanied by miccha and some doesn't > have either. Hence the 3 value are like: pleasant, unpleasant and > neutral feelings. By the same token all kusala won't be accompanied > by miccha-anything. Some might lack samma but it falls > into "neutral" category which lacks both. Technically though all > kusala cittas are accompanied by sati. Also all jhana cittas have > panna, only 4/8 maha-kusala cittas lack panna. Yes, '3 value' is the key I think, this dovetails nicely with Htoo's and Nina's explanations. (Funny, this was the solution to a long- sought database problem I had years ago...) Thanks again. mike 44033 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Times jonoabb Hi TG --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > In a message dated 4/3/2005 8:10:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > jonoabb@... writes: > Your closing remark is a point well made. The crux of the matter here > is whether the Buddha taught the importance of knowing as they are the > different kinds of consciousness and their objects. > > Jon > > Hi Jon > > I agree with this statement. It's good to find some agreement ;-)). > What we may not completely agree on is -- what > the Buddha wanted us to know about them... or ... in how to know them so > that samsara is overcome. Before we can discuss what is to be known about 'them', we need to be agreed about what 'them' is, and it seems to me that it is on this that we do not completely agree. To me, the 'different kinds of consciousness and their objects' is a way of summarising the ayatanas and/or the elements, and these in turn are ways of classifying dhammas. To give a example, at the moment of seeing closet door, the dhammas appearing could be either seeing, visible object, or thinking (but not hardness, and not a composite state). Only a dhamma that is actually appearing can be known as it truly is. A composite state has no individual characteristic by which it can be known/experienced. Jon 44034 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges jonoabb Hi Andrew --- Andrew Levin wrote: ... > After the service, which was based on Samyutta Nikaya 75-77 (I don't > have a copy so I don't know if this is enough to identify the sutta, > but it was regarding a deity asking the Buddha about the nature of > things in the world.), I waited for a spot, and got down on my knees > in front of him, told him I'd been reading his book, "The Noble > Eightfold Path," and had gotten most of the supplementary reading. > Now he had written that volume not in exhaustive detail, (the reason > for the recommended reading was added in the back), and I was unclear > on the best way to proceed with mindfulness of breathing, > specifically towards acheiving the insight knowledges. I asked if he > had any ideas on what to read further on that or any alternative > ideas than described in either his book or the others, and he told me > that mindfulness of breathing is *not* the only contemplation that > will elicit the insight knowledges. So I take this to mean that > other contemplations, like the contemplation on the repulsive nature > of the body, or the contemplation on the four elements, could yield > the desired result, too. In addition, he told me to continue with > mindfulness of breathing, even though it is a difficult meditation > subject. ... You were very fortunate to have the opportunity to listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi. He has a considerable knowledge of the texts, and a pleasant, unassuming manner. I think it's unfortunate you did not have the chance to put specific questions to BB, of the kind we discuss here. But I appreciate that the format of the occasion was fixed; in the circumstances, you made the most of the opportunities available. While I have a lot of respect for Bhikkhu Bodhi's scholarship, I think when it comes to 'practice' one needs to consider any advice given very carefully against the whole of the Tipitaka. In particular, I think that advice given in the circumstances of your meeting should be taken as something to reflect on and consider, rather than to 'go out and do', and I'm sure this would have been how it was intended by BB himself. Just a couple of points about mindfulness of breathing. First, this is not a practice that was recommended by the Buddha for all and sundry. If you read the sutta references carefully, you'll see it was mentioned in the context of monks who were leading a certain lifestyle and in whom mindfulness and concentration were already highly developed. Secondly, although mindfulness of breathing can be developed in conjunction with insight, it is not itself the development of insight. My suggestion would be to focus your effort on your own study of the texts, rather than placing too much reliance on the writings or opinions of others. I think you'll find that much of what is contained in 'practice guides' is the author's own idea and is not directly supported by the texts. Hope you find this helpful. Jon 44035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas nilovg Dear Htoo, thank you for answering about anutiika. Just a remark about the child's wrong view. It is so dofficult to tell, unless the child speaks out: there is no kamma. But here there may perhaps be only moha. He is too small for expressing wrong view or even think of kamma and vipaaka. I am just going away and cannot attend to your answer this week. Nina. op 04-04-2005 14:54 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@...: > The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is listening > his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly happy because he > does not fully understand adult's speech. But as there is lobha he is > listening actively. There is wrong view as he does not know kamma well. And no > one is urging him to listen. 44036 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 10:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, Thanks for your reply, and don't worry about being too busy to post: there is no hurry. --------------------- KH: > > I see what you mean, however, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha), is not blind faith: it is confidence in wholesomeness. Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.' ............................................. C: > It is blind when the faith is not based on the "experience" (i.e., seen, heard,etc...) as the truth. When you think it is true because it is logical, or a teacher --including the Buddha--, etc..., convinces you of its truth. I have no-clue what you could mean by: "Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.'" ------------- I agreed that faith, in the ordinary sense of the word, could be wholesome or unwholesome. When it is unwholesome [blind] faith it can, as you said, "block you from seeing the truth." Then I said, "However, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha) is not blind faith; it is confidence in wholesomeness." Do you see the difference? An absolute reality always has the same characteristics, function and manifestation. Saddha can only be kusala: it can never be akusala. So, for example, it could never "block you from seeing the truth." --------------------------------- KH: > > . . . Therefore, it is not justifiable to think of faith or doubt <. . .> in those ways. To think of either of them, "This is mine," is to have attachment (lobha); "This am I" is to have conceit (mana), and, "This is my self," is to have wrong view (miccha-ditthi). They are unwholesome (akusala) misconceptions. .............................................. C: > I don't understand what you are trying to say. ------------------- I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says. There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? ------------------------------- KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. The Dhamma, however, requires purely kusala study and purely kusala practice. .............................. C: > Wrong again, I know of killers who use Dhamma to sharpen their skills as killers. Now if you consider killing as wholesome, well ... What is a "purely kusala study and purely kusala practice?" -------------------- If we are listening to a Dhamma talk for the wrong reasons - attachment, aversion or ignorance - then that listening will not lead to insight. Killers might listen to a Dhamma talk in order to sharpen their killing skills, but that is not Dhamma study: it won't increase their insight, and it won't lead to enlightenment. As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. ---------------- C: > Have you experienced this as true, or do you except this by faith? Often, faith and doubt, is what keeps you trapped; lost in I, me, and mine. ---------------- I am trying to say that I don't see Dhamma study and Dhamma practice in quite the same way you do. Rather than have conventional theories about faith, doubt, love, hate, and all the other mental factors, I just want to understand the actual dhammas; saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on. So for me, Dhamma study is the study of dhammas. That might seem dry and impersonal, but it is the only way to go (in my opinion). ------------------------- C: > > > So you disagree with the Kalama suttra? A case in point: The Buddha claimed that experience is the truth you should accept as real (Ref:Kalama Suttra). However, scientist today have proven that the senses can be fooled, therefore what you experience may not be real. This is a contradiction, and you should be asking your- self, "So what can be relied on as Truth/real?" ------------------------- K: > > I like that, and I agree entirely. ................................................ C: > So are you ready to go for the Masters? ------------------ I agreed for reasons that you might consider wrong reasons. And then I rambled on with a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean much to me - now that I look at it again. The Kalama Sutta is hard to interpret. At first sight, it seems to be saying that doubt (vicikiccha) can be a good thing. But vicikiccha is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing. As you have often said, difficulty in explaining indicates a shaky grasp of the subject matter. I might leave it to others to explain my understanding of the Kalama Sutta. :-) I will just say that the KS is frequently misquoted. Contrary many popular interpretations, it does not tell us to value our own experiences above the teaching of a Buddha. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > I am back to work so posting will be slow again. > > 44037 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 11:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 christine_forsy... Hello KenH, Charles,and all, This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on "A look at the Kalama Sutta" "On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he likes. But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we meet in these claims just another set of variations on that egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever notions are congenial to oneself -- or to those to whom one is preaching?" http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/look_at_kalama_sutta.php metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" < C: > > > So you disagree with the Kalama suttra? > A case in point: > The Buddha claimed that experience is the truth you should accept as > real (Ref:Kalama Suttra). However, scientist today have proven that > the senses can be fooled, therefore what you experience may not be > real. This is a contradiction, and you should be asking your- > self, "So what can be relied on as Truth/real?" > ------------------------- > K: > > I like that, and I agree entirely. > ................................................ > > C: > So are you ready to go for the Masters? > ------------------ > > I agreed for reasons that you might consider wrong reasons. And then > I rambled on with a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean much to me - > now that I look at it again. The Kalama Sutta is hard to interpret. > At first sight, it seems to be saying that doubt (vicikiccha) can be > a good thing. But vicikiccha is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - > it can never be a good thing. > > As you have often said, difficulty in explaining indicates a shaky > grasp of the subject matter. I might leave it to others to explain > my understanding of the Kalama Sutta. :-) > > I will just say that the KS is frequently misquoted. Contrary many > popular interpretations, it does not tell us to value our own > experiences above the teaching of a Buddha. > > Ken H 44038 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Nina, You wrote: Dear Htoo, thank you for answering about anutiika. Just a remark about the child's wrong view. It is so dofficult to tell, unless the child speaks out: there is no kamma. But here there may perhaps be only moha. He is too small for expressing wrong view or even think of kamma and vipaaka. I am just going away and cannot attend to your answer this week. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, When you are back this message will be ready for you. The example of the child case is just ordinary example. There are many possibilities when there is rapid flow of cittas in succession. Thinking of kamma etc is not the case. It is just for understanding of beginners. Example child, if he is a born sotapanna will not have any ditthi or wrong view. Here there need not any thinking. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44039 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff (and Matthew) Just a comment on your discussion about consciousness vs. brain. --- sunnaloka wrote: ... > The sum *is* greater than its parts. Consciousness as a > phenomenon `is more than' its component material processes > precisely > because it has interior subjectivity/depth, which its parts could > never have because they are of a lower level of organization. That > is, they are exterior surface phenomena. No molecule or even complex > arrangement of molecules `possesses' consciousness. > Consciousness is > a higher order phenomenon, which in human beings is capable of not > only appreciating the organic complexity of the human brain, but is > also capable of employing fantastic qualitative measurements > involving logic and truth status and ethical priority, etc.. In the Dhamma, 'consciousness' is the name given to a particular class of phenomena that can be directly expereinced. It is not to be confused with the conventional concept of consciousness (and it has nothing to do with brain, which is not a phenomenon that is experienced at all in our life). The seeing that is occurring right now is a kind of consciousness. It is a phenomenon of a kind completely different from the visible object that is seen now -- that phenomeneon does not experience an object. > But this doesn't (necessarily) make consciousness any more real > than > brain. Consciousness, because it is dependent upon it's parts, is > therefore empty of any inherently existing own-nature (to use > Madhyamika phrasing). Just as the brain is dependent upon cells. And > cells are dependent upon molecules. The 'phenomena' of the Dhamma have no component parts -- if they did then those component parts, and not the compounded entity, would be the phenomena spoken of ;-)) Jon 44040 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. jonoabb Hi Tep (and Azita) --- Tep Sastri wrote: ... > It is true that firm rememberance - an aspect of sanna - is weakened > by intoxicants like alcoholic drinks. Some friends of mine can drink > several glasses (even mixing drinks of different kinds) and still can > drive back home safely. I think they might counterbalance the alcohol > effect by sati on the danger of drunk driving. So, in them the sanna > of danger arose and the alcoholic effect was lessened. This sounds like a classic case of alcohol-induced mis-perception (and/or post-event rationalisation)! I don't like their chances of successfully defending a drunk-driving charge ;-)) Jon 44041 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) htootintnaing Dear Ken H, Thanks for your reply. As I agree almost all parts of the message, I will not reply as 'my usual way'. The only area is 'I will leave it'. There you commented that I was a bit critical about 'not practising'. Now I know your point. I am flexible one. I like your smile :-) regarding 'formal meditation'. And I agree that 'formal meditation' may well be ritual. But I am still not well digested regarding this point of 'formal meditation' even though I accept your explanation. Sarah could not help me clear in that matter like you. Amara of DSList accused me of 'such thing'. She also could not help people clearly. When I wrote 60 messages which were just conventionalising of mahasatipatthana sutta, some did not agree and there were many complaints. The worst is one who is not the current member of DSG. I will leave it alone. I have a plan to check all my 60 messages with second approach as if I had not written them. I have a plan to write on 'mahasatipatthana sutta' with original Pali, their translations, their interpretation with abhidhamma terms and so on. But I am not sure I will have enough time. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Thank you for continuing the discussion: > > -------------------------------------- > H: > When I saw the sentence 'Breathing in long, he knows he > breathes in long', I was shocked. Like you I did not accept in my > mind regarding that sentence. If you re-read 'Vipassana' post (the > source of this discussion) you will see what I have written on the > whole matter. --- snip --- snip --- In particular, > he taught formal meditation. > :-) > > Ken H 44042 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan (and KenH) --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > Ken > > In your post you state: > > I should add that, in my humble opinion, there are no genuine jhana > meditators in the world today. > > Could you please elaborate on this because I don't understand your > meaning here. I think what KenH may mean is that there are lots of people nowadays who claim to have attained jhanas (and who even claim to be able to teach it in a course!) but that if you look at what they have to say about the development of samatha/jhana, it doesn't match with the ancient texts on the subject. Jon 44043 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Mike, true jhana has to be accompanied by sati and paññaa, otherwise it is not real jhana, but only what may be erroneaously taken for jhana. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Mike, Nina, and interested members, Yes. Jhanas are always accompanied by 'sati' and 'panna'. Otherwise they are not real jhana. In Myanmar 'jhana' is used as an ordinary term sometimes. Example is 'He is in jhana of reading' 'He is in jhana of fishing' 'He is in jhana of love-making' etc etc. There are 7 jhanangas 1. vitakka 2. vicaara 3. piiti 4. somanassa 5. domanassa 6. ekaggataa 7. upekkhaa Domanassa is a jhananga. It is also a compoent of jhana. But here it is akusala jhana. When wars were going to happen, the leaders did have this 'domanassa jhananga' and this led to breaking out of wars. So usage has to be confined to specific things. When we talk jhana in the setting of 'Theravada Buddhism' it is rupavacara rupa jhana and arupavacara arupa jhana. Jhana is not akusala in that setting. Again, even in that 'realm of citta' that is rupavacara rupa jhana and arupavacara arupa jhana, they may not be Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Example jhanas are jhanas of ancient hermits and jhanas of 2 teachers of Bodhisattas. Their jhanas were full of kusala. There were sati and panna. But they lacked 'anicca-sanna, anicca-panna, anatta-sanna, anatta-panna'. So their jhana even though they were genuine 'arupavacara arupa jhana' which were kusala dhamma are not 'samma-samaadhi' of Noble Eightfold Path of 37 Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Because they never obtained Bodhi Nana at all. Even true jhana may not be 'right-concentration' or 'samma-samaadhi' when there is no 'right-view' or 'samma-ditthi'. Here again, jhanalabhii do not have ditthi when they are in jhana. But if they are not of the disciples of The Buddha or if they themselves are not Paccekkabuddhas, their jhanas are not 'samma-samaadhi'. Akusala jhanas are no way to be assumed as 'samma-samaadhi'. With respect, Htoo Naing 44046 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (300) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Arupa brahma beings and their patisandhi cittas or rebirth consciousness, their bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness, and their cuti cittas or life-ending consciousness have been discussed in the previous post. As soon as they are reborn in arupa brahma bhumis or realm, the first citta is one of 4 arupavipaka cittas serving as patisandhi citta or linking consciousness, which is in the place of rebirth consciousness. This citta just lasts a moment and it is immediately followed bt many mnay bhavanga cittas, which are also the same citta like the patisandhi citta. But entity-wise, timing-wise bhavanga cittas are totally different from the patisandhi citta and function also differs. At a point, the flow of bhavanga cittas stops and there arises the first vithi citta. Even though these arupa brahma beings are beings without any rupa they do have cittas or consciousness. Their namakkhandhas are called 4 namakkhandhaa. Because there are 'vedanakkhandhas, sannakkhandhas, sankharakkhandhas, and vinnanakkhandhas' only and there is no rupakkhandha at all. Vedanakkhandha is (vedana + kkhandhaa) and vedana is feeling, khandhaa is aggregate. Sanna is perception. Sankhara is mental formations such as volition (cetana), attention (manasikara), contact (phassa) etc etc. And vinnanaa here is 'citta' in the purest form. But no citta exists in a single entity but there always is 4 namakkhandhas of vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana and these 4 are inseparable and they behave as if a kind of juice which composes water, sugar, salt, taste etc and inseparable. This is according to 'sampayutta paccaya' as The Buddha preached in Patthana. What is the first vithi citta in arupa brahmas? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44047 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (299) htootintnaing Dear Mods, I just re-post DT (300) because the heading was not changed. Could you please delete the exact copy of 300 with the heading '299' ? Thanks in advance. Htoo Naing 44048 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 3:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (301) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, What is the first vithi citta in arupa brahmas? The first vithi citta that arises in arupa brahmas is manodvara- avajjana citta. This citta which is mind-door-adverting consciousness just passes away and it is immediately followed by the first jhavana series in respective arupa brahmas. This javana citta is not arupavacara citta even though the host being is an arupa brahma. But the citta which is the first javana citta in that arupa brahma is kaamaavacara citta and it is akusala citta. This akusala citta is lobha mula citta. There are 7 successive lobha javana cittas. Depending on accumulation of the respective arupa brahma there may or may not follow continuing lobha javana cittas. If arupa brahma in question is a puthujana arupa brahma he may continue to have lobha javana in vithi after vithi inbetween which are arupa bhavanga cittas of arupavipaka cittas. If arupa brahma in question is anagami arupa brahma there will not be very long lobha javana as in case of puthujana arupa brahma. When paccavakkhana javana arises and looks into the foregoing cittas and find that it is just kaamaavacara javana, the arupa brahma with greater accumulation will contemplate on the matter and he will soon switch on arupa jhana as arupakusala javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44049 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 4:02am Subject: Non-Beautiful Consciousness htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness are also non-beautiful consciousness. They are 8 lobha mula citta or attachment-rooted consciousness, 2 dosa mula citta or aversion-rooted consciousness and 2 moha mula cittas or ignorance-rooted consciousness. Other non-beautiful cittas are 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 root-less consciousness. Even though they are not akusala cittas they are called non-beautiful consciousness because they do not carry any hetu or root as in beautiful consciousness like dvihetuka sobhana cittas or double-rooted consciousness and tihetuka sobhana cittas or triple-rooted consciousness. Hetu or root-dhamma are 1.alobha or non-attachment, 2.adosa or non-aversion, which is also known as metta, 3.amoha or non-ignorance, which is also known as panna or wisdom, 4.lobha or attchment, 5.dosa or aversion, and 6.moha or ignorance. When all of these 6 root dhammas do not arise in cittas they are called rootless consciousness or ahetuka citta. As they do not have beautiful cetasikas like alobha, adosa, and amoha they are called asobhana citta or non-beautiful consciousness. Again these 18 ahetuka cittas or rootless consciousness can be divided into three separate groups. They are 7 akusala vipakacittas or 7 unwholesome-resultant consciousness, 8 kusalavipakacittas or 8 wholesome-resultant consciousness and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 rootless-functional consciousness. Ahetuka means rootless that is absence of all 6 roots. Vipaka means the results. Kiriya means ' just performance and there is no kammic force left due to that performance'. There are 7 ahetuka akusala vipakacittas. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam cakkhuvinnana citta 2. upekkha sahagatam sotavinnana citta 3. upekkha sagagatam ghanavinnana citta 4. upekkha sahagatam jivhavinnana citta 5. dukkha sahagatam kayavinnana citta 6. upekkha sahagatam sampaticchana citta 7. upekkha sahagatam santirana citta Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Vinnana is made of 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means distinctinct, particular, special. Nana means knowledge. So vinnana are special knowledge. When a citta arise at eye while seeing a colour, that citta particularly knows the colour. No other citta can know the colour. So it is a form of vinnana citta. Sota means 'related to ear', ghana means 'related to nose', jivha means 'related to tongue', kaya means 'related to physical body'. Dukkha means ' feeling of hard to bear' or bodily pain or discomfort . Sampaticchana is made up of sam which means 'well' and paticchana which means ' receiving'. So sampaticchana citta is well-receiving consciousness that receives the object transferred by the former citta which arose just before its arising. Santirana is made up of san which means ' well ' and tirana which means 'appropriately investigating'. So santirana citta is a consciousness that looks into the object of sampaticchana to work out what it is. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44050 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 4:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Ken > > In your post you state: > > I should add that, in my humble opinion, there are no genuine jhana > meditators in the world today. > > Could you please elaborate on this because I don't understand your > meaning here. > > Hi Evan, Many people base their Buddhist practices on jhana, but it seems that they do so in spite of ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them. Jhana is much harder than commonly thought. It is theoretically possible only for those humans and heavenly beings whose rebirth (patisandhi) citta is accompanied by all three noble root-conditions (alobha, adosa and amoha). Satipatthana, by comparison, is less demanding: it can be practised by beings with only amoha and adosa root-conditions. My knowledge of the subject comes only from DSG discussions. There are several relevant posts in the files, and, rather than put them into my own words, I will simply cut and paste from one of them. It was alleged that some DSG people were discouraging others from practising jhana. In message 11565, Kom listed ten possible reasons why that might not be such a bad thing. Kom did not say definitely that no one on the world today was practising genuine jhana. That was my opinion, but I based it on the same type of information that he gives here: ----------- > Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to dissuade people from Jhana: 1) Satipatthana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibbana.Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point as far as I know. 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already overwhelming to some of us. 3) Beyond studying realities and satipatthana, it is important to develop all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly falls within this parameter. 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people with the right accumulations can develop this. 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intiricacies of Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing this. 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana b) Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. b) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking / exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick you kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. b) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. Kom > ---------------------- Kind regards, Ken H 44051 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Jon, Thanks for explaining that. I have come across people who claim to attain jhana regularly in practice but I remember thinking at the time that their description of what their jhanic state was did not coincide with the suttas and other descriptions I had read. Thanks, Evan Hi Evan (and KenH) --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > Ken > > In your post you state: > > I should add that, in my humble opinion, there are no genuine jhana > meditators in the world today. > > Could you please elaborate on this because I don't understand your > meaning here. I think what KenH may mean is that there are lots of people nowadays who claim to have attained jhanas (and who even claim to be able to teach it in a course!) but that if you look at what they have to say about the development of samatha/jhana, it doesn't match with the ancient texts on the subject. Jon 44052 From: "rahula_80" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:20am Subject: Meditation/Stess/Research rahula_80 Hi, Can anyone give me a few references to researches (in journal etc) that supports the view that meditation reduces stress. Thanks, Rahula 44053 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Ken, I'd like to address some of the points you make and get your thoughts on them: -- Ken Hi Evan, Many people base their Buddhist practices on jhana, but it seems that they do so in spite of ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them. -- Evan So many of the suttas have the Buddha explaining that a bukkhu totally secluded from sense pleasures etc... attains first jhana, second.... fourth jhana... and then other attainments. So as far as I can see, the Buddha is exhorting us to practice the jhanas. -- Ken Jhana is much harder than commonly thought. It is theoretically possible only for those humans and heavenly beings whose rebirth (patisandhi) citta is accompanied by all three noble root-conditions (alobha, adosa and amoha). Satipatthana, by comparison, is less demanding: it can be practised by beings with only amoha and adosa root-conditions. -- Evan There is no question that for a householder, especially in the western world which is drowning in sense pleasure, this is an exceedingly difficult task. Possibly, however, on a reasonably long retreat with a suitable experienced Buddhist monk as the teacher, one could attain jhana (for what it's "worth"). -- Ken My knowledge of the subject comes only from DSG discussions. There are several relevant posts in the files, and, rather than put them into my own words, I will simply cut and paste from one of them. It was alleged that some DSG people were discouraging others from practising jhana. In message 11565, Kom listed ten possible reasons why that might not be such a bad thing. Kom did not say definitely that no one on the world today was practising genuine jhana. That was my opinion, but I based it on the same type of information that he gives here: -- Evan I think that there are many Theravadin Buddhist monks who can attain jhana without difficulty - up to fourth jhana and beyond. Rather than reproduce the rest of the email response and respond on a line by line basis, I would like to make a general comment that I was under the impression that the 8-fold noble path was divided into 3 broad areas: virtue, concentration and wisdom. Even though each is not independent of the other, they do tend to build on each other. One that has not practiced virtue and therefore has an agitated mind can find it extremely difficult to develop concentration. Concentration provides support for the development of wisdom. It allows the mind to "see" processes that one cannot see clearly in our everyday state of mind. If one can attain jhana and sit and notice each and every thought as it arises, as it sustains and as it falls then wait for long periods of time between these thoughts and then notice the same process occurring again and again with no seeming connection between thoughts and no "self" behind the generation of these thoughts, surely there the mind is picking apart the veil of delusion. Noticing the mind in that way begins to pull apart the delusion of a self and of permanence - as one sits noticing each and every thought rise and fall. Surely this is what it is all about? Noticing processes in our everyday mind state is far less effective because our mind is too dull to notice enough. Development of concentration helps to support the development of wisdom because finer and finer processes can be noticed. Anyway, I think I have made my point. Let me know what you think. Kind Regards, Evan 44054 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 7:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on "A look at the Kalama Sutta" > "On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha > has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all > doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit > to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he > likes. But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we > meet in these claims just another set of variations on that > egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever > notions are congenial to oneself -- or to those to whom one is > preaching?" Joop: That in fact what I said, of other persons, but also as a description of wishful thinking, in #43874 of the thread "Re: Buddha Nature / Luminous Citta": And about the beautifull sutta: "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is defiled by incoming defilements." … If the Buddha did mean Buddha-Nature with "this luminous mind" (citta): I don't know; so I do not believe the (Theravada-) commentatators like Bhikkhu Bodhi: they don't like suttas they don't understand so it's possible that they re-interpretate them because they understand that interpretation… … interpretation of luminous mind as the bhavanga-citta? My answer: I don't know, but I don't think so: saying that it is a bhavanga-citta is making this sutta harmless and less incomprehensible, less 'mystical'. But without more proof for any interpretation a honest answer (with a scientific attitude) should say: we don't know what this sutta means. Metta Joop 44055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:09am Subject: Decisive Support Condition htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 24 conditions that serve as conditional relations between different kinds of dhamma. These 24 conditions are also known as 24 paccayas or 24 causes or 24 supporting dhamma. In the widest sense, among these 24 conditional relationships upanissaya paccaya or decisive-support condition has the widest relations between and among different dhamma. ''Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam akusalaanam dhammaanam kesanci upanissaya paccayena paccayo''. There are instants that kusala dhammas are being developed as a good deed or wholesome deed or meritorious deed. So it can be said that the beginning is started with wholesome actions. This can be seen in case when we do great offering to others. When we are offering we are happy and we are sincere that we do good things to other people. But 'sometimes' during that wholesome actions or around that wholesome actions that arise thinking that are not appropriate for kusala dhamma and this may finally lead to opposite called akusala dhamma. When there is a good start but there is a bad ending. This happen sometimes and the foregoing wholesome actions or kusala dhamma serves as 'decisive support condition' or 'upanissaya paccaya' for later unwholesome actions or akusala dhammas. Purima means 'front' 'before' 'foregoing'. Here kusala dhamma such as offering and kusala cittas that do the offering are foregoing dhamma or purima dhamma. When they go before what follow after them is pacchima dhamma. Pacchima means 'back' 'last' 'following'. Here pacchima dhammas are akusala dhamma. So kusala dhamma may serve as upanissaya paccaya for akusala dhamma in some way (kesanci). Here the condition is not proximity condition or anantara paccaya or it is also not contiguity condition or samanantara paccaya. So it is not necessary that the foregoing kusala dhammas have to be immediately followed by akusala dhamma. This cannot happen. Because kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma cannot be neighbour and they never arise in proximity condition or contiguity condition. But as explained above kusala dhamma may in some way support akusala dhamma and this sometimes happen. As in above example when offerings are being carried out there are kusala dhamma. But the merit doers may have inappropriate thinking on his own deeds. For example they may develop lobha or attachment to their own deeds and this attachment may further leads to other akusala dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44056 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:32am Subject: Non-Beautiful Consciousness Continue htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness. It is no doubt that 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness are ugly and non-beautiful. But still there are 18 non-beautiful consciousness or 18 asobhana cittas. Some of them are not ugly but they are not beautiful. So it will appropriate if they are called non-beautiful consciousness. 7 ahetuka akusalavipaka cittas or 7 root-less unwholsome-resultant consciousness are 5 vinnana cittas or 5 sense-consciousness of bad results namely cakkhu-vinnana citta or eye-consciousness, sota-vinnana citta or ear-consciousness, ghana-vinnana citta or nose-consciousness, jivha-vinnana citta or tongue-consciousness, and kaya-vinnana citta or body-consciousness. There are 2 more cittas and these 2 extra cittas are sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness and santirana citta or investigating consciousness. So there are altogether 7 cittas that are resultant consciousness derived from akusala actions in the past lives. There are 8 ahetuka kusalavipaka cittas . These are 8 rootless wholesome resultant consciousness. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka cakkhuvinnana citta 2. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka sotavinnana citta 3. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka ghanavinnana citta 4. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka jivhavinnana citta 5. sukha sahagatam kusalavipaka kayavinnana citta 6. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka sampaticchana citta 7. somanassa sahagatam kusalavipaka santirana citta 8. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka santirana citta They cittas are the resultant cittas supported by kusala kamma or wholesome deeds. Sukha means 'physical pleasure'. There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 root-less functional or inoperational consciousness. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam pancadvaravajjana citta 2. upekkha sahagatam manodvaravajjana citta 3. somanassa sahagatam hasituppada citta Panca means 'five'. Dvara means 'door'. Avajjana is made up of 'aa' and 'vijjana'. Avaijjana means 'contemplating on the object' 'adverting the object' 'turning the attention to the object'. Pancadvaravajjana citta is a consciousness that turns the attention to ruparammana or sight (colour-light) saddarammana or sound, gandharammana or smell, rasarammana or taste, and photthabbarammana or touch-senses (which may be pathavi-hardness, tejo-temperature, or vayo-supportiveness). Ruparammana is the object of colour or sight. Saddarammana is the object of sound. Gandharammana is the object of smell. Rasarammana is the object of taste. And Photthabbarammana is the object of bodily touches like consistency, temperature and movement or pressure or supportiveness. Manodvaravajjana citta is a citta that arise at manodvara or mind door. It turns the attention to mind object or dhammarammana. Dhammarammana includes 89 cittas or 89 consciousness, 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors, 5 pasada rupa or 5 sense-door bases, 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle materials, nibbana, and pannatta or names. Pasada is the nature that has clearing effect on rupa that are collected together. Sukhuma means 'subtle'. Pannatta means 'concepts' or 'conceptualisation'. Hasituppada comes from ' hasi' and 'uppada'. Hasa or hasi is humour or sense of humour. Uppada means 'arising'. Hasituppada means 'arising of humourous sense'. Hasituppada citta is the citta that arises when arahats smile. This citta is kiriya citta. So it has no kammic force. It is rootless citta. These three consciousness are also rootless consciousness like the first 7 akusala-vipaka cittas and then 8 kusala-vipaka cittas. They all make ( 3 + 7 + 8 = 18 ) 18 root-less consciousness and they are non-beautiful consciousness. Along with 12 akusala cittas, there are a total of 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44057 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan (and All in a PS) --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > Jon, > > Thanks for explaining that. I have come across people who claim to > attain jhana regularly in practice but I remember thinking at the time > that their description of what their jhanic state was did not coincide > with the suttas and other descriptions I had read. > > Thanks, > > Evan Yes, although I was referring mainly to their description of the development of samatha leading to the supposed jhana. Most people equate concentration with samatha. Jon PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via Bangkok (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators return). 44058 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:49pm Subject: (No subject) Evan_Stamatopou... To those that believe the brain is everything or the brain is mind, the link below is to a talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso (about 6MB download) in which he describes a meditator who while in Jhana was about to be pronounced dead. My question is: how can one be "dead" but still have a mind if it is the brain that provides the mind? http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Kind Regards, Evan 44059 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Dear Group, The first two diary entries have been seen by some of you before. This is long, but I needed to write it. Twelve years or more ago, I forget exactly when, a stray dog - a Great Dane/Alsatian cross-breed, a gentle giant we called Rusty - came into the lives of myself and my family. He was to stay for only one night 'until we find his owner' ... but we never did, and he never moved on. Nothing very special about him - just a dog. Changes inevitably came, children grew up, finished school, went to University, moved out of home - the dog and I lived companiably together on a small rural property. He was good natured, gentle, obedient mostly - except when hiding at bath-time, and disobeying the rule about not going on carpets by entering the study to listen whenever he heard the Sound Files of the BrahmaViharas being chanted. ================== 2nd week of September, 2004. This morning, just before I left for work, he started fitting. I panicked a little but, looking back over today, what seems strange is that I somehow found the strength alone to lift a 46g kilogram fitting dog into the hatch-back of my small car. It took four of us to lift him out at the Veterinary Hospital. An anxious day, many tests, no definite conclusions - but, what there is doesn't bode well. The Vet says "Chris, it's something we've never seen before in our combined forty years of practice, so I'm taking the CT Scan results to the University tonight, we'll know something definite by mid-morning tomorrow - I want you to be prepared to make some decisions ..." Rusty is on a valium/phenobarb./wide spectrum antibiotic drip, in 'twilight' sleep. There is so much 'important' suffering in the world, brutal, horrific, unfair, and seemingly ever increasing - and I see so much grief and trauma everyday at the hospital. Trying to get things in perspective here. Just a dog. But I keep remembering scenes from the past. Rusty - as a pup whirling round and round on the rotary clothes hoist when his teeth caught in a towel he had been trying to pull off; Rusty - as a young dog bailed up by a scotty bantam hen (one tenth his size) with her a dozen chicks behind her outstretched wings; as an inquisitive black and tan pup making a nuisance of himself when my son was milking our house cow and having his furry face painted white with an accurate squirt from a teat; at Christmas time proud of his red santa hat and cotton wool beard with tinsel round his collar; a hullaballoo in the front paddock, Rusty running fast towards the house, couldn't see what was chasing him, thought it might be a goanna or a red- bellied black snake ... turned out to be a Chihuahua named Dolores who was visiting next door. Just a dog. I don't know what the decisions are that I will need to be "prepared to make" - not exactly. But I can guess ... My daughter, who was eleven years old when we found him under our car after a Debating contest one night at the school, took time off work to sit with us today. My son is wandering in India, somewhere south of Goa, last we heard, and he will be fiercely against what I know the Vet will be asking ... As a follower of the Teachings, I always look to them to see how I am to live. The First Precept is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from killing living beings" In the Dhammapada v.246-7, the Buddha says: "Whoever destroys living beings, ..... whatever man indulges thus extirpates the roots of himself even here in this very world." Somehow - though this is very clear - it is against what every compassionate person I know will be expecting me to do .... ============================ 3rd week of September, 2004 On Wednesday, I explained to a kindly Veterinarian that I wouldn't have Rusty 'put down', but would prefer further investigations. I said that only if he couldn't be kept comfortable while 'allowing nature to take it's course' would we need to discuss 'other options' again. Today, I visited Rusty at the Animal Hospital. He has had most of the back of his neck shaved, has drips connected to each front paw and a catheter connected elsewhere. He is feeling very sorry for himself (and I am too!). But he knew I was there, which is more than he has known for the last couple of days. The CT scan showed no tumours, but, instead, a 1/2 cm space across the back of the top of the cranium filled with air, indicating that he has brain degeneration - he also has inflammatory meningitis. It may be that in a few days time he can come Home, and continue treatment orally instead of by drip. The hospital staff - the receptionists, the cleaners, the veterinary doctors, the university trainees, were all beaming and coming by continually to say how glad they were to have such an 'unexpected win'! So ... brain degeneration ... that's sad, yes, and no one would deny it ... but that's just the way it is ... and, really, how much brain does a furry chap need in order to lie on the grass in the morning sun, and under a shady tree in the afternoon; to chase hares and magpies across the paddocks; to come when called for dinner; and to know who it is that loves him unconditionally? :) :) :) :) :) =========================== Wednesday 6 April, 2005 For a week I had been with spiritual friends in Bangkok and on Sunday 3 April, I flew back into Brisbane after a long night flight via Sydney. I was met by my daughter, and after the usual luggage retrieval, we moved towards the car - "Oh, by the way, Mum - there's is something I have to tell you ..." Rusty had become ill in the kennels and had been taken to the local veterinarian - my son and daughter wouldn't allow the Vet to euthanise him. He was sent to the Animal Hospital. And so began a round of tests (some under general anaesthetic), x-rays, biopsy, ultrasounds, in a fruitless quest to find the cause and the cure. After being in intensive care and 'specialed' for three days and nights, he was not improving and the Veterinarian said there was not a good chance that he ever would. I decided to end his suffering. I thought of him dying there in the sterile atmosphere of the hospital with the moans and cries of sick and fretting animals. I thought of him dying there with no contact with the warm earth, without the scents of his home wafting on an afternoon breeze, without the sounds he was used to, of crows, magpies, and ducks on the dam; of cows lowing, horses whinneying, and the rustle of small animals in the undergrowth. So I gathered some reminders - eucalptus leaves and those of the lemon-scented tea tree - where he always lay in the shade on a hot summer's afternoon as he waited for me to come home from work; some grasses and herbs from the garden where he buried his bones, and branchlets from the sacred bamboo on which he rubbed his back. My son and daughter and I were taken to be in a room with him - he was on the floor on a mattress and covered up to the neck by a blanket. We knelt beside him and kissed his swollen face and held him and told him we loved him. We cried, but not too much ... 'let him only feel love, not our own self-pity' ... I crumpled the leaves and grass near his face so that the scent would be strong for him - we all placed our hands on him and gently stroked him. The vet did what had to be done, and when he died the change was so imperceptible that we had to be told he was gone. Such a mystery is Death - such a mystery is life. Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever .. Just a Dog .. Chris 44060 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 1:14am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via Bangkok > (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators return). Dear Sarah and Jon I don't understand exactly what you mean with this remark; but I think you want again spend much time on your DSG-moderator activities. Maybe a part of it is to restructure and revitalize DSG, and I hope this will be the case. Some suggestions - More than one field of discussion. For example:  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - Buddhaghosa - Sujin  Technical questions about that frame of reference  Discussions about but not totally wihin that frame of reference  Broader Buddhistic discussions - More thread-discipline (on this moment many participants are too lazy to change the name of the thread if they start another topic) - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no personal information of participants) Metta Joop 44061 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 1:42am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Sorry Joop - perhaps you are referring to my post which came immediately before yours, about the death of my sole companion of many years, and the fact that it was my decision that ensured his death. With no Buddhist friends closer than 200 kms, I found little real understanding of how I was feeling in those colleagues I see each day. An animal's death is difficult - a Christian society's reaction makes it such an unvalidated or 'disenfranchised' grief. And I looked to the internet for understanding and support from those who view life from a Buddhist perspective. I didn't realise it would be viewed as inappropriate content for this list. I had assumed dsg was for those interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka. The Present Moment, to me, most certainly includes what happens in Daily Life, the joys and the heartbreaks of ordinary life. But if as you put it, it should have " - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no personal information of participants" then it is not the place for me. May you always be well and happy Joop, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > ... > > PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via > Bangkok > > (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators > return). > > > Dear Sarah and Jon > > I don't understand exactly what you mean with this remark; but I > think you want again spend much time on your DSG-moderator activities. > Maybe a part of it is to restructure and revitalize DSG, and I hope > this will be the case. > Some suggestions > > - More than one field of discussion. For example: >  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - > Buddhaghosa - Sujin >  Technical questions about that frame of reference >  Discussions about but not totally wihin that frame of reference >  Broader Buddhistic discussions > > - More thread-discipline (on this moment many participants are too > lazy to change the name of the thread if they start another topic) > > - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no > personal information of participants) > > Metta > > Joop 44062 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever sarahprocterabb... Hi Chris (SarahF & Luke), --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever .. Just a Dog .. > ... Just back to the luxury of a computer -- I didn't have Jon's ingenuity (and patience perhaps:-))to get around the sloooow connections, regular losses of connections and non-working keys in Samui, though I did try a couple of times --- We were very sorry to just read about Rusty and send our condolences and best wishes to you, SarahF and Luke too. We all know how much a part of your family he's been for so long, and like you said to Nina about her father, he's also become part of our extended DSG family too (photo in 'Significant Others' album for newbies to see). You gave him the best life that a dog can have and let's hope that all that listening to brahma vihara recordings, time being surrounded by Dhamma books and all the pleasure he gave you all may just lead to happy results:-). Perhaps he (or that continued stram of cittas) may rejoice in our offerings of dhamma too.... I'm very glad you were back in time to be with him and collect all those favourite, familiar twigs and leaves and so on. It sounds like Sarah and Luke (your children) handled everything beautifully in your absence and so sensitively on your arrival back. Perhaps you or Connie could re-post the link to that great letter she wrote to Rusty too:-) And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible object. This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. Thinking of you all...keep sharing your feelings, reflections and diary musings. We'll be glad to read them. Perhaps SarahF may like to share her reflections and any questions on life/death too. Metta Sarah (& Jon) p.s All, I have lots of musings from our recent trip - perhaps I'll try to write a brief summary of one a day. Any requests for clarifications or comments will be most welcome. =============== 44063 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:47am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 158- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (h) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 120,121) gives a definition of viriya which is similar to the one given by the Visuddhimagga. Apart from this definition it gives first another one and here it deals with viriya under the aspect of “controlling faculty” or indriya . The Påli term “indriya” means “governing or ruling principle”. When kusala viriya has been developed it becomes a “controlling faculty”. The controlling faculty of viriya “controls” or inhibits laziness, a defilement opposed to energy (1). We read in the Atthasåliní: * "From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of predominance …Its characteristic is strengthening, and grasp or support. As an old house stands when strengthened by new pillars, so the aspirant (meditator), when strengthened by energy, does not fall off or deteriorate as to moral states. Thus should the characteristic of strengthening be understood…" * The Atthasåliní then uses a simile of a small army which, if it goes to battle, might be repulsed. However, when they are supported by a strong reinforcement sent by the king, they can defeat the hostile army. We read: * "… thus energy does not allow associated states to recede, to retreat; it uplifts, supports them. Hence it has been said that energy has the characteristic of supporting." * *** 1) See Dhammasangaùi §13, and for its explanation: Atthasåliní I, Part IV, Chapter 2, 146. There are five indriyas which should be developed together. They are the “spiritual faculties” which are the following wholesome qualities: saddhå (confidence), viriya, sati, samådhi (concentration) and paññå. These faculties control or overcome the defilements which are their opposites. When indriyas have been developed to the degree that they are “unshakable”, they are “powers” or “strengths”, balas. Powers cannot be shaken by the defilements which are their opposites. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44064 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Hello Sarah, and (Connie), Thank you for your comforting letter - you are very kind. I am feeling O.K. at the moment, though I expect there to be ups and downs. I will pass your letter on to SarahF and Luke. The Dhamma is a safety net - and a little understanding is better than a lot of self pity .. but, no control, you know :-). Yes, I have kept Connie's letter, and it still brings a smile. Thank you Connie. :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37046 metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Chris (SarahF & Luke), > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever .. Just a Dog .. > > > ... > Just back to the luxury of a computer -- I didn't have Jon's ingenuity > (and patience perhaps:-))to get around the sloooow connections, regular > losses of connections and non-working keys in Samui, though I did try a > couple of times --- > > We were very sorry to just read about Rusty and send our condolences and > best wishes to you, SarahF and Luke too. We all know how much a part of > your family he's been for so long, and like you said to Nina about her > father, he's also become part of our extended DSG family too (photo in > 'Significant Others' album for newbies to see). > > You gave him the best life that a dog can have and let's hope that all > that listening to brahma vihara recordings, time being surrounded by > Dhamma books and all the pleasure he gave you all may just lead to happy > results:-). Perhaps he (or that continued stram of cittas) may rejoice in > our offerings of dhamma too.... > > I'm very glad you were back in time to be with him and collect all those > favourite, familiar twigs and leaves and so on. It sounds like Sarah and > Luke (your children) handled everything beautifully in your absence and so > sensitively on your arrival back. > > Perhaps you or Connie could re-post the link to that great letter she > wrote to Rusty too:-) > > And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of > seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no > awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible > object. > > This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, > likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. > > Thinking of you all...keep sharing your feelings, reflections and diary > musings. We'll be glad to read them. Perhaps SarahF may like to share her > reflections and any questions on life/death too. > > Metta > > Sarah (& Jon) > p.s All, I have lots of musings from our recent trip - perhaps I'll try to > write a brief summary of one a day. Any requests for clarifications or > comments will be most welcome. > =============== 44065 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread (302) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are cittas that can arise in arupa brahmas and there are other cittas that cannot arise in arupa brahmas. There are 12 akusala cittas. But 2 dosa mula cittas or 2 aversion- rooted consciousness cannot arise in arupa brahma as all brahmas rupa or arupa never have any dosa. Why? This happens because all jhanas rupa or arupa become jhanas only after complete clearing of dosa. So arupa brahmas can have 10 akusala cittas out of 12 akusala cittas. They do not have any rupas and so they do not have eye, ear, nose, tongue, body. So there is no 10 panca-vinnana cittas or 10 or 5 pairs of sense-consciousness. As these is no panca-vinnana cittas, there is no receiving consciousness or 2 sampaticchana cittas and no investigating consciousness or 3 santirana cittas. So arupa brahmas do not have 15 ahetuka vipaka cittas. As they do not have sense organs, they do not have pancadvaravajjana citta. So out of 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas, only 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas can arise in them. Out of 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness, 10 akusala cittas and 2 ahetuka cittas can arise in them. So there are 12 asobhana cittas that can arise in arupa brahmas. There are 24 kama sobhana cittas. But 8 mahavipaka cittas, which serve as patisandhi, bhavanga, and cuti citta of kama sattas cannot arise in arupa brahmas. When they do non-jhana kusala, they have 8 mahakusala cittas or if they are arahatta arupa brahma, then they will have 8 mahakiriya cittas. So there are 16 kama sobhana cittas that can arise in arupa brahmas. Arupa brahmas do not do any rupa jhanas. What they do regarding jhana is their level arupa jhana or higher arupa jhanas. So they do not have any of 15 rupavacara cittas ( 5 rupakusala, 5 rupavipaka, 5 rupakiriya ). They can have 12 arupavacara cittas ( 4 arupakusala, 4 arupavipaka, 4 arupakiriya ). Arupa brahmas can have the following cittas. a) 10 akusala cittas (8 lobha, 2 moha ) b) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (1 manodvaravajjana, 1 hasituppada) c) 16 kama sobhana cittas (8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas) d) 12 arupavacara cittas (4arupakusala,4 arupavipaka,4 arupakiriya) e) 7 lokuttara cittas (sotapatti magga citta never arises there) ---------------- 47 cittas Again, akasanancayatana brahmas do not have higher arupavipaka cittas and any arupa brahma do not have arupavipaka cittas which is not of their realm. So there will be 44 maximal possible cittas in arupa brahmas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread (303) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In arupa brahmas, possible vithi varas are 1. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of lobha 2. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of moha 3. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of hasa or smile 4. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of kama-kusala 5. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of kama-kiriya 6. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of arupakusala 7. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of arupakiriya 8. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of lokuttara kusala 9. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of lokuttara vipaka (fruition) Mano or mana means 'mind' 'mind-related'. Dvara means 'door'. Manodvara means 'mind-door'. Manodvara is the last bhavanga citta just before the first vithi citta of any vithi vara. Kama means 'sensuous things like sight, sound, smell, taste,touch'. Javana means 'swift'. Here javana means 'javana cittas'. Javana cittas are cittas that arise in 7 successive moments when in kama- javana and infinite moments when in appana-javana in samapatti or attainment. Appana means 'close'. It is so close that it is hard to say whether there is any space between the object and the citta'. Vithi means 'serial'. Vara means 'a turn' or 'the turn'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44068 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:37am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Sorry Joop - perhaps you are referring to my post which came > immediately before yours, about the death of my sole companion of > many years, and the fact that it was my decision that ensured his > death. Dear Christine Sorry for your dog (and your grief) and for my message that was crude to you. My remark about 'personal' things had nothing to do with your message but more with James who had the feeling that otherrs members are the favorites of the 'elders', that's a kinf of family-emotions. Metta Joop 44069 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:53am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Dear Joop, Thank you for clarifying and settling any misunderstanding. I am a little more reactive than usual at the moment and appreciate your patience. metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Sorry Joop - perhaps you are referring to my post which came > > immediately before yours, about the death of my sole companion of > > many years, and the fact that it was my decision that ensured his > > death. > > > Dear Christine > > Sorry for your dog (and your grief) and for my message that was crude > to you. > My remark about 'personal' things had nothing to do with your message > but more with James who had the feeling that otherrs members are the > favorites of the 'elders', that's a kinf of family-emotions. > > Metta > > Joop 44070 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, I wrote: ------------- > > Many people base their Buddhist practices on jhana, but it seems that they do so in spite of ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them. ------------ And you replied: ---------------------------- > So as far as I can see, the Buddha is exhorting us to practice the jhanas. ------------- As you know, there were, in the Buddha's day, many men and women with "little dust in their eyes." Some of them (a small fraction, I think) were living as strict ascetics and practising jhana. They were exhorted to continue with their practice. Others were living as householders, but had the wisdom and ascetic tendencies that made them capable of jhana. Many of those people were exhorted to leave their homes, go to a remote forest, or cemetery (etc.) and develop jhana (and vipassana, of course). But you probably know all this better than I do. When I said people today aspire to jhana "in spite of the ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them." I meant they have not studied the meaning of jhana, and they think it is something ordinary people are capable of. By the way, there was typo in my previous message: I meant to say a dvihetu-patisandhika (person born with only two of the three noble root conditions) was born with alobha and adosa - not amoha and adosa. ---------------------- <. . .> E: > There is no question that for a householder, especially in the western world which is drowning in sense pleasure, this is an exceedingly difficult task. Possibly, however, on a reasonably long retreat with a suitable experienced Buddhist monk as the teacher, one could attain jhana (for what it's "worth"). ----------------- Possibly, yes, but I would think it extremely unlikely. The hard part of jhana development is not so much living in rags at the foot of a tree in the middle of nowhere: the hard part is getting to the stage where taking up that lifestyle would be a beneficial thing to do. For us ordinary people, hunger, cold, biting insects, isolation, etc., etc., would be the last things to bring about tranquillity. This is what Kom was driving at with his examples of how hard it is to become "established in morality" (and to know karuna from attachment, etc.). It takes many lifetimes to accumulate that kind of wisdom. Unlike in the Buddha's day, there aren't many saintly people around, and those that are around would be more interested in developing vipassana than in developing jhana. --------------- <. . .> E: > I think that there are many Theravadin Buddhist monks who can attain jhana without difficulty - up to fourth jhana and beyond. ---------------- People of all persuasions (Buddhist and non-Buddhist) can bring about amazing results from intensive meditation, prayer, sensory deprivation, self-hypnosis, physical endurance, and so on. Who is to say when it is jhana and when it is not? ----------------------- E: > Rather than reproduce the rest of the email response and respond on a line by line basis, I would like to make a general comment that I was under the impression that the 8-fold noble path was divided into 3 broad areas: virtue, concentration and wisdom. Even though each is not independent of the other, they do tend to build on each other. One that has not practiced virtue and therefore has an agitated mind can find it extremely difficult to develop concentration. Concentration provides support for the development of wisdom. It allows the mind to "see" processes that one cannot see clearly in our everyday state of mind. ------------------------------------------ Without disagreeing with what you say, I would like to remind you there are only dhammas: In a moment of vipassana, there are dhammas that represent virtue, concentration and wisdom. For that split second of virtuous kamma, there is right concentration (the dhamma, samma-samadhi) that is providing support for right wisdom (the dhamma, sama-ditthi (panna)). ------------------------------------------------------------ E: > If one can attain jhana and sit and notice each and every thought as it arises, as it sustains and as it falls then wait for long periods of time between these thoughts and then notice the same process occurring again and again with no seeming connection between thoughts and no "self" behind the generation of these thoughts, surely there the mind is picking apart the veil of delusion. Noticing the mind in that way begins to pull apart the delusion of a self and of permanence - as one sits noticing each and every thought rise and fall. ------------------------------------------------------------- That is an excellent description of the kind of formal practice commonly mistaken for jhana. However, the texts describe jhana very differently. Its object is a kasina (or sometimes, the breath), so thoughts are never observed by jhana consciousness. Rise and fall are never observed by jhana consciousness - just the kasina (as I understand it). --------------------------------- E: > Surely this is what it is all about? --------------------------------- Here, I think you are saying, "This is what the Buddha's teaching is all about." If so, I would have to disagree. Satipatthana is all about conditioned dhammas (most notably, samma-ditthi and samma- sati) perceiving another conditioned dhamma (any dhamma that becomes the object of consciousness) as it really is - i.e., as being a conditioned, mental or physical phenomenon with the three characteristics; anicca, dukkha and anatta. Dhammas last less than a billionth of a second, and so there is no conventional technique that could ever perceive one. Therefore, a practice of sitting still and quiet has no more advantages than would a practice of running wildly and shouting. Samma-sati and panna will arise to perform their functions at any moment in daily life when the right conditions are present. The factors that lead to the right conditions' being present are; association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma and wise consideration of the true Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------- E: > Noticing processes in our everyday mind state is far less effective because our mind is too dull to notice enough. Development of concentration helps to support the development of wisdom because finer and finer processes can be noticed. --------------------------------------------------- It is important to know that right understanding can arise to know one of the dhammas that are arising *here and now.* Even if there is sloth and torpor, panna can arise to know sloth or torpor or any other, co-arising, dhamma. --------------------------------------------- E: > Anyway, I think I have made my point. Let me know what you think. --------------------------------------------- Thanks for the chance to talk about it. I look forward to your further comments. Ken H 44071 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:12am Subject: RE: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Or they forget to put a subject at all for new threads (like I did). Kind Regards, Evan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via Bangkok > (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators return). Dear Sarah and Jon I don't understand exactly what you mean with this remark; but I think you want again spend much time on your DSG-moderator activities. Maybe a part of it is to restructure and revitalize DSG, and I hope this will be the case. Some suggestions - More than one field of discussion. For example:  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - Buddhaghosa - Sujin  Technical questions about that frame of reference  Discussions about but not totally wihin that frame of reference  Broader Buddhistic discussions - More thread-discipline (on this moment many participants are too lazy to change the name of the thread if they start another topic) - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no personal information of participants) Metta Joop 44073 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:39am Subject: Musings1: "It is by discussion ....that his wisdom is to be known...." sarahprocterabb... Hi Chris, Evan, Ken H & All, Chris quoted the following: 'One has to know someone for a very long time to know what their Sila is.' We discussed how little can be known by outer appearances and indeed we’ve discussed SN3:11 Seven Jatilas before on DSG (with James) in which the Buddha is speaking to King Pasenadi which ends with the verses: “A man is not easily known by the outward form Nor should one trust a quick appraisal, For in the guise of the well controlled Uncontrolled men move in this world. “Like a counterfeit earring made of clay, Like a bronze half-pence coated with gold, Some move about in disguise: Inwardly impure, outwardly beautiful.” ***** We may look for teachers or practitioners with apparent calm, concentration, non-reactivity or apparent wisdom or dignity, but would we know? Earlier in the sutta we read the lines which I referred to, (but couldn't find the reference for): “It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. “It is by dealing with someone, great king, that his honesty is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. “It is in adversities, great king, that a person’s fortitude is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. “It is by discussion with someone, great king, that his wisdom is to be known, , and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” ***** Without discussing, questioning and attending wisely for a long time, there is no way we can have any idea about another wisdom. In another discussion we also considered how we cannot appreciate the virtues we don’t have ourselves and how our respect and appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues can only be according to our very limited wisdom. (to be contd) Metta, Sarah ======= 44074 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 8:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (304) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads talk about 'citta'. Cittas are discussed to some details. Cittas are classified according to their specific components and their borne characters. Cetasikas are also discussed in Dhamma Threads. Cetasika the word has 'ceta' and 'ika'. Ceto or ceta or cittameans 'mind' 'consciousness' or mind-related. Ika is a grammatical suffix and it is related to position. Example; dvara means 'door' and dvarika means 'at door' or 'things at the door'. Cetasikas are 'things at the citta'. So they are called 'mental factors' or 'things in the mind'. Rupa are also discussed to some extent. Nibbana is discussed sensitively. Pannatti or 'names' are also discussed. Still there may be problems related to 'pannatti'. Citta and cetasikas combinations are discussed later on in the earlier posts of Dhamma Thread. Processing of different citta in a series of procession is also discussed as vithi. After that different vithi varas are discussed to some details. When close to number 300, Dhamma Threads are about bhumis or realms and cittas that can arise in these bhumis or realm. So far different bhumis have also been discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44075 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 11:22am Subject: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew > > You were very fortunate to have the opportunity to listen to Bhikkhu > Bodhi. He has a considerable knowledge of the texts, and a pleasant, > unassuming manner. > > I think it's unfortunate you did not have the chance to put specific > questions to BB, of the kind we discuss here. But I appreciate that the > format of the occasion was fixed; in the circumstances, you made the most > of the opportunities available. Jon, all the stuff on Abhidharma-- I have learned here and from Nina's ADL-- has been plain and simple so far. Mostly the same with what I have been reading from the Bhikshu's CMA. With the exception of what I've been discussing about the nature of mundane right view, and understanding dhammas as they are present to understand kamma and vipaka (if this type of understanding is indeed necessary for right view, which I glean from his talk that I might), there aren't any questions I have pertaining to Abhidhamma that I could ask, nothing I've been trying to figure out or anything, frankly because I think there are things we can do, as practitioners, to cultivate the factors of the path, actively working as a person, be we made up of namas or rupas or not, to attain stages of enlightenment. This is a point you may see in my discussions with Sarah (the thread "new view on satipatthana"). This has been brought up by people here other than myself, including someone raising the point that the Buddha told some of his order "That's how you should train yourselves." For me, this is not a new spec of information that might change the way I look at things, it is something extra that shows what I believe *lots* of scripture references- purposeful action. This includes the gradual training, the sutta on mindfulness of the body, the (Maha-) Satipatthana sutta, the Potthapada sutta, and more I could cite. The Buddha gives instructions to them all on how to practise. It's clear as day. And he declared very many of his order (if not all) and very man of his lay followers to have reached enlightenment during his ministry. That's why I don't see eye to eye with people here, where it seems one is encouraged to practise only a few nama or rupa on occasion, and to acheive enlightenment in scores, hundreds, or eons of lives and years away. With all the enlightened ones in this dispensation, who's to say we don't have the same chance? We may not all have sufficient meritorious deeds in our past to acheive in this lifetime, but we all still have a reasonable chance of acheiving it within this dispensation if we practise well in this and future lifetimes. > While I have a lot of respect for Bhikkhu Bodhi's scholarship, I think > when it comes to 'practice' one needs to consider any advice given very > carefully against the whole of the Tipitaka. In particular, I think that > advice given in the circumstances of your meeting should be taken as > something to reflect on and consider, rather than to 'go out and do', and > I'm sure this would have been how it was intended by BB himself. Well the book gave pretty specific instructions and referred to specific passages in other words about how to practise right mindfulness. I quote from B.B.'s "Noble Eightfold Path": >>>The fourth step, "calming the bodily function," involves a progressive quieting down of the breath and its associated bodily functions until they become extremely fine and subtle. Beyond these four basic steps lie more advanced practices which direct mindfulness of breathing towards deep concentration and insight. <<< This is in accord with my understanding and the content a few other books I have read (and many I have not) where mindfulness of breathing is the chief 'producer' or 'bringer' or insight. He says it right there. > Just a couple of points about mindfulness of breathing. First, this is > not a practice that was recommended by the Buddha for all and sundry. If > you read the sutta references carefully, you'll see it was mentioned in > the context of monks who were leading a certain lifestyle and in whom > mindfulness and concentration were already highly developed. You'll have to show me where this was the case. If you tell me that the sutta on mindfulness of the body (MN 119) was like this because he was giving it to the order of monks, I would not say that that proves that these instructions were only given to monks who were already developed in mindfulness and concentration on other areas. If it were the case, we'd see where they would start somewhere in the texts, but, I do not believe they do, because we can start with mindfulness of breathing, of the body, and of feelings, mental states, and dhammas. Even my personal experience accords with this- I have talked to someone on an online forum on which there is a consensus this person is enlightened - has done it by simple walking and sitting meditation. A good friend established in dharma, practising the noble eightfold path, tells me he has friends who have acheived the third stage of awakening. I realize I am coming on strong here, but everything in my experience, especially the modern books and practise guides on meditation, go on the same basis. > Secondly, > although mindfulness of breathing can be developed in conjunction with > insight, it is not itself the development of insight. I see it as the vehicle for the development of insight, from what I have read. I had been having some difficulties with the practise of it, which is why I brought it up to Bhikkhu Bodhi. He told me to continue practising even though it's difficult, and I understood the rest of his reply to mean that other contemplations can elicit the insight-knowledges as well. This leaves a small area of uncertainty and doubt for me - that is, how essential mindfulness of breathing is, and its place and cultivating insight, especially in relation to the other contemplations which can do the same. Personally I have acheived some virtue and wisdom with mindfulness of breathing for a greater or lesser period of time. Granted, nothing as far as vipassana nanas, enough to convince me that it's a very feasible option for laypeople and monastics alike. > My suggestion would be to focus your effort on your own study of the > texts, rather than placing too much reliance on the writings or opinions > of others. I think you'll find that much of what is contained in > 'practice guides' is the author's own idea and is not directly supported > by the texts. > > Hope you find this helpful. > > Jon Jon, my own study does not go well, as I am not well, but I have had occasion to read the nikayas and develop some preliminary understanding of how things are to be done. Speaking with the high monk at my temple and on occasion seeing the noble one(s), and reading works by those who are said to be accomplished, has been pretty much in line with my understanding of how things are to be done. I do know that Nina has cited some text or another which says mindfulness of breathing is intended for some special order of monks only, and I do not have access to these texts (I only have two of the Nikayas as far as the canon is concerned, then the Vissudhimagga and some other modern and modernish books, no sub-commentaries or anything), but I would still say the preponderance of evidence suggests we practise the noble eightfold path or the four foundations of mindfulness. Abhidhamma to me means knowing the exact realities, at the same level, or an even deeper level, than the contemplations on the elements, contemplation on consciousness, and so on, rather than a method or vehicle of practise on its own. Eg. I think it was Sarah who said she had spent some time in the order and was labeling states of consciousness with words, and we both agreed that a deeper understanding of the exact realities would be more effective than mere labeling. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. peace, alevin 44076 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Hello KenH, Thank you for your kind wishes - I do think I did the compassionate thing - he has really been failing since last September and I didn't expect him to live out this coming winter. I'm actually feeling O.K. - though I expect there will be more moments like when I came home, opened the fridge to get the milk .. and found the dog food. The Five Recollections will have an added insight each morning: I am of the nature to grow old, I have not gone beyond old age. I am of the nature to become ill, I have not gone beyond sickness. I am of the nature to die, I have not gone beyond death. All that is dear and delightful to me will change and vanish. I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related to my actions, abide supported by my actions, whatever action I do, whether good or evil, of that I will become heir. An animal's death is difficult, society's reaction and assessment of the value of an animal makes it such an unvalidated or 'disenfranchised' grief - in a similar vein to that of the death of a same-gender partner, or a miscarriage or still-birth. Hard for anyone, not just a buddhist. May he (and each one of us) have a fortunate re-birth. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Sorry about dear old Rusty. I liked the idea of having gum leaves and > other familiar things there for him. He would have known you were > trying to help. > > Also; thanks for helping out with the Kalama Sutta - again. > > Ken H 44077 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... ------------------------------------------------------------ E: > If one can attain jhana and sit and notice each and every thought as it arises, as it sustains and as it falls then wait for long periods of time between these thoughts and then notice the same process occurring again and again with no seeming connection between thoughts and no "self" behind the generation of these thoughts, surely there the mind is picking apart the veil of delusion. Noticing the mind in that way begins to pull apart the delusion of a self and of permanence - as one sits noticing each and every thought rise and fall. ------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ken That is an excellent description of the kind of formal practice commonly mistaken for jhana. However, the texts describe jhana very differently. Its object is a kasina (or sometimes, the breath), so thoughts are never observed by jhana consciousness. Rise and fall are never observed by jhana consciousness - just the kasina (as I understand it). -- -- Evan Hi Ken, Entering jhana requires that the mind concentrate on a kasina but once in Jhana, three things happen to the mind. It becomes extremely tranquil, it becomes extremely joyous and it becomes extremely powerful, able to notice phenomena at a much greater depth than ever before. What also happens is that the sensation of a body disappears, the sensation of space and where you are disappears, the mind seems to expand (this is noticed particularly coming out of jhana). So, yes you are right that the kasina is important for entering jhana but once jhana has been entered, the nimita becomes the focus because there is no more breath. I have supplied a url in another post of a talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso on jhana. In it there is an interesting story about a person who entered jhana (about 10-12 minutes in the talk). Download it and listen to the whole talk. I did that yesterday and found it very interesting. http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Kind Regards, Evan 44078 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 7:17pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Dear Tep, Ooooh, not agreeing with you on this one, Tep. Sounds to me like a whole lot of thinking going on. "they counterbalance the effect of alcohol by sati". I, of course, can't know what others can do, but this doesn't sound like true Sati to me. Sounds like the bravery that comes along with being intoxicated. Sure, we say Sati can arise anytime, anywhere, however I doubt very much that Sati would arise when one is intoxicated. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Azita - > > Thank you for initiating the discussion. > > It is true that firm rememberance - an aspect of sanna - is weakened > by intoxicants like alcoholic drinks. Some friends of mine can drink > several glasses (even mixing drinks of different kinds) and still can > drive back home safely. I think they might counterbalance the alcohol > effect by sati on the danger of drunk driving. So, in them the sanna > of danger arose and the alcoholic effect was lessened. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: > > > > dear Nina and Tep, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > wrote: > > > op 01-04-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > > > > N: Firm sanna is the proximate cause of sati of satipatthana. We > > learn > > > > again and again about nama and rupa, about their different > > > > characteristics. And when we listened and considered a great > > deal, and > > > > intellecual understanding has been accumulated sufficiently, it > > can be > > > > immediately known when nama appears to the sati and when rupa. No > > need > > > > to say it or define it. > > > > > > > > Azita: On reading this again, another aspect of Sanna occurred to > > me, in relation to the 5th precept - refrain from intoxicants. If it > > takes firm rememberance of intellectual understanding, to be a > > conditon for sati to arise in some future time, then the taking of > > intoxicants hinders that remembrance, to a greater or lesser degree > > depending on the being, I suppose. What do you think? > > > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > > Azita. 44079 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 8:36pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Ooooh, not agreeing with you on this one, Tep. Sounds to me like > a whole lot of thinking going on. > "they counterbalance the effect of alcohol by sati". I, of > course, can't know what others can do, but this doesn't sound like > true Sati to me. Sounds like the bravery that comes along with being > intoxicated. > Sure, we say Sati can arise anytime, anywhere, however I doubt > very much that Sati would arise when one is intoxicated. > > ======= Dear Azita, There is the Dhammapada 142 commentary Santati the minister: For seven days, the king's minister enjoyed himself to his heart's content, getting intoxicated with drink and infatuated with the young dancer. On the seventh day, riding the ornamented royal elephant, he went down to the riverside for a bath. On the way, he met the Buddha going on an alms-round, and being drunk, he just bowed casually, as a sign of respect to the Buddha. Santati and his party spent the whole day at the riverside, bathing, eating, drinking and thus thoroughly enjoying themselves. In the evening the minister and his party went to the garden to have more drinks and to be entertained by the dancer. The dancer, on her part, tried her best to entertain the minister. For the whole week she was living on reduced diet to keep herself trim. While dancing, she suffered a severe stroke and collapsed, and at that instant she died with her eyes and mouth wide open. The minister was shocked and deeply distressed. He went to the Buddha, accompanied by his followers, and related to him about the grief and anguish he suffered on account of the sudden death of the dancer. He then said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! Please help me get over my sorrow; be my refuge, and let me have the peace of mind." To him the Buddha replied, "Rest assured my son, you have come to one, who could help you, One who could be a constant solace to you and who will be your refuge. The tears you have shed due to the death of this dancer throughout the round of rebirths is more than the waters of all the oceans."The Buddha then instructed the minister in verse. The meaning of the verse is as follows. "In the past there has been in you clinging (upadana) due to craving; get rid of it. In future, do not let such clinging occur in you. Do not also harbour any clinging in the present; by not having any clinging, craving and passion will be calmed in you and you will realize Nibbana." After hearing the verse, the minister attained arahatship" RobertK 44080 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 9:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Ken, I have just found another description of the jhanas and this is also by Ajahn Brahmavamso. It makes for VERY interesting reading. Hope you like it too. http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf Kind Regards, Evan 44081 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:10am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 159- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (i) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] The word “energy” as it is used in conventional language does not render the precise meaning of viriya. When we for example say that we are full of energy, what do we mean? Energy for what? Is it energy accompanying akusala citta or energy accompanying kusala citta? Besides, there are also vipåkacittas and kiriyacittas which are accompanied by viriya. We are inclined to take energy for self, but energy is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Energy is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies and thus there is a different kind of energy with different cittas. In order to have more understanding about viriya we should study which types of cittas it accompanies. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44082 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:50am Subject: Musings2 - Recollection of the Buddha's virtues sarahprocterabb... Dear All, I wrote that ‘in another discussion we also considered how we cannot appreciate the virtues we don’t have ourselves and how our respect and appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues can only be according to our very limited wisdom’ We discussed how when the recollection of the Buddha is an object of samatha(calm)development, only access concentration can be attained and this degree of concentration only by an ariyan. Simply put, any development of samatha has to be accompanied by the wisdom which understands how the object (in this case the Budha’s virtues) can condition calm. A non-ariyan cannot sufficiently appreciate or respect these virtues. With more understanding of the Path, there will be more and more reflection and this will be deeper and deeper. The same applies to all the six recollections (anussati)as objects of samatha, i.e 1)recollection of the Buddha (buddhaanussati), 2) the Dhamma (dhammaanussati), 3) the Sangha (sanghaanussati), 4) sila (siilaanussati), 5) dana (caagaanussati), 6) heavenly beings (devataanussati). As quoted in Nyantiloka’s dictionary, we read that ‘the noble disciple’ recollects: *** >(1) "The noble disciple, Mahánáma, recollects thus: 'This Blessed One is holy, a fully Enlightened One, perfected in wisdom and conduct, faring happily, knower of the worlds, unsurpassed leader of men to be trained, teacher of heavenly beings and men, a Buddha, a Blessed One.' (2) 'Well proclaimed by the Blessed One is the Doctrine (dhamma), directly visible, with immediate fruit, inviting investigation, leading on to Nibbána, to be comprehended by the wise, each by himself.' (3) 'Of good conduct is the Community (Sangha) of the Blessed One's disciples, of upright conduct, living on the right path, performing their duties, to wit: the 4 pairs of men or 8 individuals (s. ariya puggala). This Community of the Blessed One's disciples is worthy of offerings, worthy of hospitality, worthy of gifts, worthy of reverence with raised hands, the unsurpassed field for doing meritorious deeds.' (4) "The noble disciple further recollects his own morality (síla) which is unbroken, without any breach, undefiled, untarnished, conducive to liberation, praised by the wise, not dependent (on craving or opinions), leading to concentration. (5) "The noble disciple further recollects his own liberality (cága) thus: 'Blessed truly am I, highly blessed am I who, amongst beings defiled with the filth of stinginess, live with heart free from stinginess, liberal, open-handed, rejoicing in giving, ready to give anything asked for, glad to give and share with others.' (6) "The noble disciple further recollects the heavenly beings (devatá): 'There are the heavenly beings of the retinue of the Four Great Kings, the heavenly beings of the World of the Thirty-Three, the Yámadevas ... and there are heavenly beings besides (s. deva). Such faith, such morality, such knowledge, such liberality, such insight, possessed of which those heavenly beings, after vanishing from here, are reborn in those worlds, such things are also found in me.' " (A. III,70; VI,10; XI,12). "At the time when the noble disciple recollects the Perfect One ... at such a time his mind is neither possessed of greed, nor of hate, nor of delusion. Quite upright at such a time is his mind owing to the Perfect One ... With upright mind the noble disciple attains understanding of the sense, understanding of the law, attains joy through the law. In the joyous one rapture arises. With heart enraptured, his whole being becomes stilled. Stilled within his being, he feels happiness; and the mind of the happy one becomes firm. Of this noble disciple it is said that amongst those gone astray, he walks on the right path, among those suffering he abides free from suffering. Thus having reached the stream of the law, he develops the recollection of the Enlightened One...." (A.VI.10).< ***** S: We’re bound to contemplate or meditate on some of these recollections from time to time and there is samatha (calm) with any wholesome moments, but any such reflections or samatha development can only be according to our limited understanding of the Buddha’s qualities and the other objects at this time. Not even an arahant can fully fathom the Buddha’s knowledge and attain jhana with these objects of samatha. Several times it was discussed how our comments about the difficulty of comprehending the Four Noble Truths can be in fact a kind of praise and appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues at such a time. We also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be developed by paying special attention to particular objects. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah ==== 44083 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread (305) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When Dhamma in its essence is seen, there will not be much attachment to those illusionary things of today's worldly things. This is even true for intellectual contemplation let alone direct knowledge and realization. 'Seen' here speaks loud and bears many meanings. If it is at pativedha level or realization level, there is no need to say anyhting regarding Dhamma as realizers already seen everything related to Dhamma in its essence. 'Seen' here also means 'simple understanding on the matter'. This understanding will at least help 'not doing unwholesome things'. And this kind of understanding lessen 'madness at worldly things'. 'Puthujanno ummattakko'. All worldly beings are not free of illusionary concepts. They will have some forms of madness more or less however they are intelligent. Citta and cetasikas always co-arise and pass away at the same time in every single moment. Is it difficult to see these citta and cetasikas? This will depend on how much have we perfected in many of past lives including this current life learning in real Dhamma. Citta and cetasikas, which co-arise is collectively known as 'nama dhamma'. There are also rupa dhamma. These rupa do not have to be confused with our concepts in physical matters. As concepts are concepts and they are not real matter. Early in Dhamma Thread, citta has been discussed in some details. Cetasikas in their each entity have been discussed to some extent. Cittas have their name because of co-arising cetasikas and these different combinations are named as 89 cittas or 121 cittas. This citta has these cetasikas and that citta has those cetasikas and these matters have also been discussed in the earlier posts of Dhamma Thread. When cetasikas are centred, different calculation of cittas in comparison with each cetasika has been discussed in the earlier posts. Examples are 'vitakka' can arise in 55 cittas or 121 cittas and it cannot arise in other 66 cittas. These combinations or nama dhamma, which comprises 'pure citta' and 'different combinations of cetasikas' are also discussed as they are functioning to work their different jobs. While each citta is performing its specific job, their approximation and their occurence in a serial manner constitutes a series called 'vithi vara'. Different vithi varas are also explained in the earlier posts. After these different vithi varas or 'processions of consciousness', different beings of different realms and their consciousness are discussed to some extent. Rupa are enumerated and each has been explained. Their arising, their lifespan, their aggregates and their passing away in beings are all discussed in the previous posts. Nibbana and pannatti are also discussed frequently. Current Dhamma Thread just finishes at bhumis or realms and the cittas in those 31 bhumis or realms have been discussed in last few posts. To summerise, there are 4 sets of 4 or 'catu-catukka dhamma'. 1. 4 bhumis or 4 realms or catu-bhumi 2. 4 rebirth or 4 patisandhi 3. 4 kinds of 4 kamma 4. 4 kinds of death or 4 maranuppatti May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44084 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Hi Joop, I have some posts which I had planeed to reply to before going away, but ran out of time. So back to this old thread of ours:-). --- Joop wrote: >S: Of course this refers to wrong views....As it says in the >dictionary "The rejection > of speculative views and theories is a prominent feature in A chapter > of the Sutta-Nipáta, the Atthaka-Vagga." This is the chapter of > Eights which the Paramatthaka Sutta is from." > > Joop: Nothing of course; 'of course' does not exist. Yes, the sutta > is about rekecting speculative views and theories, but the text of it > states more than that. More than is stated in some other Teachings of > the Buddha. I accept the tension that exists between suttas and I > know many people cannot handle this kind of inconstistencies. ... S: I accept we may interpret suttas a little (or a lot at times perhaps) differently and I know my own understanding of many suttas changes with more input from the commentaries and explanations from friends like yourself. Personally,I don't mind any apparent inconsistencies or difficulites, but have confidence that these are due to either a) my own lack of understanding or b)limited Pali,translation and commentary resources. In this case, I don't see any inconsistency, but may well be missing something. ... > Sarah: "2. When there is samma ditthi (right view), there is of > course no speculation, conceit or greed involved, but instead the > direct knowledge (or panna, understanding) of paramatha dhammas > (highest truths)." > > Joop: I agree, but I should stop this statement > with "understanding)"; because one can think to easy about the lists > of 89 cittas, 28 (or another number) rupas etc when you talk > about 'paramatha dhammas'. .... S: Fair enough. Actually, when there is any kind of right view or any kind of kusala (wholesome consciousness) at all, there is no speculation, conceit or greed. I expect I made my comment because we were discussing 'ditthi', but samma ditthi doesn't have to be satipatthana. When we discuss namas and rupas or paramattha dhammas, no need to count or list these. It's just a matter of what can be directly known as reality or truth. ... > Sarah: "4. I'd like to stress that samma ditthi (right view) is a > synonym for panna (right understanding). In other words, right view > is not a speculative opinion of any kind, but direct knowledge of > dhammas." > > Joop: Yes, that's very important. But that's only true from the > moment I experience any 'right view' from within. Till that moment > they are, when I read about them in dsg or other texts, theories that > may be correct. And I take this vague notion that thy are correct, > with me in my meditation/comtemplations, with the open mind and the > attitude that these - in essence still conventional theories - got > right views in the highest sense TO ME. > (I add that 'TO ME' to it because 'right views' don't exist as such - > that essentialism - they can only exist in individuals) ... S: Yes, theories may be correct and if reflections are right, at moments of wise reflection, there is a level of right view and this is not what is being referred to as speculations or views in the sutta as I read it. At the moment any kind of right view arises, it exists. (The same for wrong views or any other dhammas for that matter). As soon as these states fall away, they no longer exist. What we refer to conventionally as speculations or views are actually the non-existent concepts or ideas that are conceived by various cittas and cetasikas. I'm still a bit 'fuzzy-headed', so I'm probably not making much sense. ... > > In fact that more or less the same as what you say: > "Of course there are many degrees and kinds of panna or right view, > not just direct insight. Reflecting wisely on kamma or on the Truths, > even at a theoretical level can be with right view or panna. This is > pariyatti (wise reflecting and consideration) which has to develop in > order for patipatti(direct knowledge or understanding) to arise and > develop." .. S: Oh, good, I said it better before. ... <...> > Joop: You talk about wrong views and right views. That one dichotomy. > But when I use in my brains the (dutch word for) view, I think many > time more 'opinion' or 'theory' and than the dichotomy is: correct > view versus incorrect view. And 'incorrect' is a theory when it's > falsified (Popper). > When I say that as an effect of my meditation I less and less have > opinions, then a third dichotomy is playing a role: useful opinions > and useless opinions. .... S: Let's be clear that samma and micha ditthi (right and wrong view) refer to 'real' cetasikas (mental factors) which arise momentarily, accompanying a citta and then fall away. What you are referring to are concepts (pannati) which are 'thought' about either wisely or unwisely. (See 'thinking' in U.P.) ... > > Let's for example take the opinion I had for years and still have not > left behind me totally: 'George W. Bush is an dangerous idiot" > I have arguments that this is a correct theory (his refusal to > participate in the Kyoto-protocol for example; Irak) > It was a useful opinion two years ago when I with others tried to > prevent that the Netherlands participated in the Irak-war. But now I > feel it's useless, because it's futile. > That why it's a wrong view, because there is hate in me when I state > this opinion. .... S: Right. This is just thinking and opinions like this are quite useless, especially when conceived or proliferated with ignorance, attachment or aversion. It always comes back to the present state of mind and as you say, hate is always 'wrong', even if the idea itself can scientifically or in other terms can be proved to be correct. Wrong view (micha ditthi)does not necessarily enter the picture while you have these ideas however. It depends if there is any view about truths and realities. Probably it's there, because there's an idea of the people existing and being responsible for others' kamma. Only wisdom can know at such times. .... > > Another example, from Joseph Goldsteins book 'One Dhamma: the > emerging Western Buddhism' (I only have a dutch translation so I had > to translate it back to english) about attachment to opinions. It's > about a Tibetan Rinpoche of whom was stated that he was an > incarnation of Sariputta. He thought: that is not possible because > Sariputta was (according the Pali Canon) an arahat so he is not > reborn so nobody in this century can be an incarnation of him. So > after some time thinking about that he concluded to have no opinion > about this topic anymore. ... S: this is an example of what I just wrote about in Musings2 - how we can only appreciate the Buddha's and arahants' qualities and the Truths according to our limited wisdom at the time. Yes, there can be no reincarnations of arahants. ... > I still have problems with that, I think Goldstein is - partly > without realizing that - converted from a Theravada to a Tibetan > Buddhist. But maybe he is firther on his path than I am. .... I always have some interest in his writings/teachings because we both studied with the same teacher in India initially (Munindra), but we all read, reflect and practise according to where our right and wrong understandings take us. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your suggestions of areas of discussion.I think everyone raises and 'buys into' areas of interest. I appreciate your broader topics and deep reflections a lot, Joop. I don't see the keeping of a thread name as indicating any laziness. Some people prefer to keep the same subject heading so it's easy to search back threads, others like to change them and make them relevant. So we leave this to everyone's discretion and just insist there is a subject heading. As for the family-like communication - well, it's always been like this and as Chris indicated, there is some support for it, but we all just post in our own styles. Mine is very different from Jon's, for example. You have your own friendly and kind style and I was glad you shared some personal details initially and told us you were going into hospital and wouldn't be around. More on 'luminous' later. 44085 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (306) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 or 'catu-catukka dhamma'. 1. 4 bhumis or 4 realms or catu-bhumi 2. 4 rebirth or 4 patisandhi 3. 4 kinds of 4 kamma 4. 4 kinds of death or 4 maranuppatti 4 bhumis or 4 sphere of dwellers are 1. apaaya bhumis or woeful planes of existence (4 realms) 2. kaama sugati bhumis ( 1 manussa, 6 deva bhumis_ 7 realms) 3. rupa bhumis ( 16 rupa brahma bhumis_16 realms) 4. arupa bhumis ( 4 arupa brahma bhumis-4 realms) and altogether there are 31 bhumis or 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 4 rebirths or 4 patisandhis are almost the same with these 4 bhumis. They are 1. apaaya patisandhi or woeful rebirth 2. kaama sugati patisandhi or happy sensuous rebirth 3. rupa patisandhi or fine material rebirth 4. arupa patisandhi or non-material rebirth If different cittas are understood, there is no way that one cannot understand these 4 bhumis, 4 patisandhis and 31 bhumis or 31 realms and 31 representative beings of each realm. This representative beings are just an illusionary concept. Kamma is a wide subject and it will be discussed at some time. In the coming posts 4 kinds of death or 4 maranauppatti will be discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44086 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:52am Subject: Vipassana & Mahasatipatthana Sutta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Mahasatipatthana sutta, which is preached in Kuruu is described in 'Digha Nikaaya- Mahavagga' DN-22. With the exception of introductory passage, all other words are The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. Here are The Buddha's words in original forms. Venerable Ananda's words in introductor passage are _ 'Evam me sutam _ Ekam samayam bhagavaa kuruusu viharati kammaasadhammam naama kuruunam nigamo. Tatra kho bhagava bhikkhu aamanesi 'Bhikkhavo'ti. 'Bhaddante'ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosum. Bhagavaa etadavo ca_' This introductory passage is followed by The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. They are _ 'Ekaayano ayam bhikkhave maggo sattaanam visuddhiyaa soka paridevaanam samatikkamaaya dukkha domanassaanam atthangamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, yadidam cattaaro satipatthaanaa.' This is followed by 'uddeso' and then followed by 'kaayaanupassanaa aanaapaana pabba'. In aanaapaana pabba, The Buddha described like this. 'Kathanca pana bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassi viharati. idha bhikkhave bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamuulagato vaa sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallinkam aabhujitva ujum kaayam panidhaaya parimukham satim upatthapetva. So satova assasati, satova passasati.' 1.'Diiham vaa assasanto 'diigham assasaamii' ti pajaanaati, diigham vaa passasanto 'diigham passasaamii' ti pajaanaati. 2.'Rassam vaa assasanto 'rassam assasaamii' ti pajaanaati, rassam vaa passasanto 'rassam passasaamii' ti pajaanaati.' 3.'Sabba kaayapatisamvedii assasissaamii' ti sikkhati, 'sabba kaayapatisamvedii passasissaamii' ti sikkhati.' 4.'Passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram assasissaamii' to sikkhati, 'passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram passasissaamii' ti sikkhati.' These are so subtle that ordinary scholars do not fully understand this part of sutta. Among above numbered 'passages', there is no mention of 'tension' by The Buddha. There is no mention of 'release' by The Buddha. There is no word that mentions as 'let it go' by The Buddha. Mahasatipatthana comprises 4 anupassana. Kaayanupassana is just a part of mahasatipatthana. Among kaayanupassana, aanaapaana pabba is just a part of kaayaanupassana only. May you all benefit from The Buddha's genuine words. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44087 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop, > .... Dear Sarah Thanks, no problem that it took more time than usual >S: Of course this refers to wrong views.... > Joop: Nothing of course; 'of course' does not exist. … .. S: I accept we may interpret suttas a little (or a lot at times perhaps) differently and I know my own understanding of many suttas changes with more input from the commentaries and explanations from friends like yourself. Personally, I don't mind any apparent inconsistencies or difficulites, but have confidence that these are due to either a) my own lack of understanding or b)limited Pali translation and commentary resources. In this case, I don't see any inconsistency, but may well be missing something. Joop: Yes, you did miss something - the most important - of my point: WE EVEN SHOULD NOT HAVE RIGHT VIEWS. Or said in another rather buddhistic (but perhaps more Nagarjuna than Theravada) way: even right views are a raft we should leave behind us ! Or to say in the best way, to avoid that this opinion refers to itself: An effect of my insight-meditation is that I less and less need any view, right or wrong. With the rest of what you wrote on the topic 'Having no opinions' I have no problems. But your "ps" that's about my message 'Back': I do not hope that's the only thing Jon and you as dsg-moderators have to say about it and James' leaving. I really hope the structure and part of the culture of dsg changes because - as ever - the root of my annoyance is within me but I still try to avoid external things that annoy me. Saying something about oneself can give information so somebody else can understand messages of that person better, OK. But in an Forum in which not-atta and not-attach are so central, the need to do so is doubtful. Family-communication: when you praise somebody that his or her message is very good, somebody else (for example James) can think: why does she never praise me? That's the danger of this mechanism. Metta Joop 44088 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:49am Subject: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Ken, > > I have just found another description of the jhanas and this is also by > Ajahn Brahmavamso. It makes for VERY interesting reading. Hope you like > it too. > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > Hi Evan, Judging from the little I have read so far, I can't say I like it. It contradicts my understanding that; (1) jhana is not unique to the teaching of a Buddha; (2) jhana is not necessary for the attainment of enlightenment;(3) the Bodhisatta was taught jhana by his two teachers, and (4) he proved that it did not lead to final release from dukkha. If you are not clear on any of those points, I think it would be well worth your while to raise them on DSG. I might briefly make one other criticism: In arguing that jhana cannot be the object of clinging the author says: "It should be pointed out that the Buddha's word for attachment, upadana, only refers to attachment to the comfort and pleasure of the five-senses or world or to attachment to various forms of wrong view (such as a view of self). It never means attachment to wholesome things, like Jhana." I am sure that is wrong. Any wholesome conditioned dhamma (with the exception of Path-consciousness) can become the object of [unwholesome] clinging consciousness. Ken H 44089 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: --- snip --- I am sure that is wrong. Any wholesome conditioned dhamma (with the exception of Path-consciousness) can become the object of [unwholesome] clinging consciousness. Ken H -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Ken H, Evan and All, That is upanissaya paccayo. Please visit www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana78.html. Wholesome conditioned dhamma may be a supporting dhamma (paccaya dhamma) for clinging consciousness. But this paccaya is not like anantara paccaya. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44090 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Ken, Great isn't it? It challenged a lot of my preconceptions too (the first 3 you mention I also understood about jhana). I am re-evaluating what I understand about jhana and its "position" in Buddhism. As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. Kind Regards, Evan -- Ken wrote Hi Evan, Judging from the little I have read so far, I can't say I like it. It contradicts my understanding that; (1) jhana is not unique to the teaching of a Buddha; (2) jhana is not necessary for the attainment of enlightenment;(3) the Bodhisatta was taught jhana by his two teachers, and (4) he proved that it did not lead to final release from dukkha. If you are not clear on any of those points, I think it would be well worth your while to raise them on DSG. I might briefly make one other criticism: In arguing that jhana cannot be the object of clinging the author says: "It should be pointed out that the Buddha's word for attachment, upadana, only refers to attachment to the comfort and pleasure of the five-senses or world or to attachment to various forms of wrong view (such as a view of self). It never means attachment to wholesome things, like Jhana." I am sure that is wrong. Any wholesome conditioned dhamma (with the exception of Path-consciousness) can become the object of [unwholesome] clinging consciousness. Ken H 44091 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Dear Htoo, Thanks for helping out. I was thinking a wholesome nama (jhanna- citta, for example) might condition clinging mind-door consciousness by way of arammana-paccaya. Ken H > > > --- snip --- > > Dear Ken H, Evan and All, > > That is upanissaya paccayo. Please visit > www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana78.html. > > Wholesome conditioned dhamma may be a supporting dhamma (paccaya > dhamma) for clinging consciousness. But this paccaya is not like > anantara paccaya. > 44092 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Hi Joop (& James), --- Joop wrote: > > Joop: Yes, you did miss something - the most important - of my point: > WE EVEN SHOULD NOT HAVE RIGHT VIEWS. > Or said in another rather buddhistic (but perhaps more Nagarjuna than > Theravada) way: even right views are a raft we should leave behind > us ! .... S: If by 'RIGHT VIEWS' you are referring to samma ditthi or panna, then the Buddha had right views most the time and it is this same samma ditthi or panna that needs to be cultivated as I read the texts. When we read about the raft simile, it is the attachment to such views that needs to be discarded. Attachment is the 2nd Noble Truth - the cause of Suffering. (see 'Raft' in U.P. if you have time). ... > Or to say in the best way, to avoid that this opinion refers to > itself: > An effect of my insight-meditation is that I less and less need any > view, right or wrong. ... S: This is not how I understand the teachings or the effect of insight-meditation (vipassana bhavana). By clearly understanding dhammas, the objects of satipatthana, then samma ditthi or sampajanna (clear comprehension) grows and becomes firmer and firmer so that stages of insight and eventually stages of enlightenment can be attained with samma ditthi. ... > With the rest of what you wrote on the topic 'Having no opinions' I > have no problems. ... S: I'll be glad to look at and discuss any references, such as the raft simile later. ... > But your "ps" that's about my message 'Back': I do not hope that's > the only thing Jon and you as dsg-moderators have to say about it and > James' leaving. ... S: Anything I write here under my own name is as a member, just like you, not as a moderator. For mod issues/comments, pls write to us off-list if you have any Qs or comments. In any case I thought James told Nina he was just going quiet and reading posts. That's all I've heard, but I'm glad to read about your concern for him. On a personal level, we've always felt very friendly to James and always had his best interests at heart, to the extent that we've been accused of showing favourtism to him:-). I've also often praised posts he's written such as his kind one to Azita just before we went away, though as KenH would say, I can't think anyone would be fussed either way by any comments or praise I might give. From my perspective, we've had many excellent discussions too. As Nina pointed out, we're all subject to the 8 worldly conditions and yes, the cause of our problems is within us. I liked some comments Kel made when he suggested our practice can be tested as we read and respond to messages too (or something to that effect. Indeed mudita (sympathetic joy) is one of the brahma viharas that we have many opportunities to develop at these times. Can we be glad when others receive gains, praise or good fortune? With an appreciation of the way that kamma and accumulations work, I think it's easier. While we read through the messages in our absence, we thought they were really great quality and very 'dynamic', so I can only thank everyone for the contributions. I appreciate that you may have different opinions on this too, so we can just agree to differ:-). James mentioned that the list is often better when we're away and I'm very happy to hear this.....just as I was happy to hear Htoo praising some comments Ken H had made which were more helpful than some of mine:-). (Look f/w to your continued discussions, Htoo and Ken H, like others have mentioned while I consider my next trip to the waves:-). Joop & James, seriously, I have no interest in being a leader and as I told someone recently, see myself more as a coordinator or sign-post (who makes lots of mistakes and often gets it wrong for the record:-)) I can also see that you or others might not like my style, but I just do my best. As you rightly say, there is no Joop, James or Sarah - just a combination of ever changing cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Developing more understanding of these dhammas is what we're here for as far as I'm concerned too. Metta, Sarah ======= 44093 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Having no opinions buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Joop, Sarah: In any case I thought James told Nina he was just going quiet and reading posts. James: Yes, that is right, I haven't left the group. I am just reading posts and seeing how things develop. Sarah: On a personal level, we've always felt very friendly to James and always had his best interests at heart, to the extent that we've been accused of showing favourtism to him:-). James: Now, some may think that this contradicts my assertions about the dynamics of this group, but it actually supports them. Think about it: Why would certain members accuse you of showing favoritism to me? After all, this is a discussion group; I don't get treats or money from you. Here is how I see it: it is because in the past you, as recognized leader, communicated with me in a friendly style (even when disagreeing) while those other members saw me as the `enemy'. Now, because of that criticism, you communicate with me in a cool and distant style. If you really had my best interests at heart, you wouldn't be so strongly influenced by what other people demand of you. Like it or not, you are being forced into being the leadership of a closed faction in this group. While this exists, there will never be open communication and I will feel uncomfortable to participate. Sarah: I can't think anyone would be fussed either way by any comments or praise I might give. James: Don't be so sure. Why do you think you were criticized for showing me favoritism? Is it because of those cuddle sessions we have once a month in Bali? ;-)) (Just kidding, Jon) Sarah: I liked some comments Kel made when he suggested our practice can be tested as we read and respond to messages too (or something to that effect. Indeed mudita (sympathetic joy) is one of the brahma viharas that we have many opportunities to develop at these times. James: I liked what Kel had to say about that also. He had his head on straight. Unfortunately, I am not so magnanimous. Metta, James 44094 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:24am Subject: Kusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 54 kamavacara cittas or 54 sensuous consciousness, 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness and 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 rootless consciousness are collectively called asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 12 akusala cittas are ugly dead sure no doubt. But 18 ahetuka cittas are also called asobhana cittas because they lack beautiful cetasikas such as alobha, adosa, and amoha. After 30 asobhana cittas, there left 24 kamavacara cittas. They are called 24 kama sobhana cittas. Alobha is non-attachment or source of offering or dana. Adosa is non-hurting nature and it can be called metta or loving kindness. Amoha is non-delusion or non-ignorance or panna or wisdom. These 24 kamasobhana cittas can be divided into three groups according to their origin or jati. They are 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas. There are kama kusala which arise in kama bhumis. Rupakusala are kusala that arise in connection with rupa jhana. And arupakusala are kusala that arise in connection with arupa jhana. Kama is sensuous things that are related to five senses. Kusala is wholesome. Bhumi means 'the place where sattas with similar characters arise and dwell'. To differentiate kama kusala from other kusala such as rupakusala, arupakusala, and lokuttara kusala which are magga cittas, kamavacara cittas are named as mahakusala cittas. Maha means 'great'. Mahakusala are cittas that arise as kusala cittas in kama bhumi. Mahavipaka cittas are just vipaka cittas or resultant consciousness. There are also ahetuka vipaka cittas. These ahetuka vipaka cittas are asobhana cittas. Sobhana vipaka cittas are also called sahetuka vipaka cittas because they have hetukas or roots. To differentiate kama from ahetuka vipaka, rupavipaka, and arupavipaka, kamavacara vipaka cittas are called mahavipaka cittas. By the same token, to differentiate kamavacara cittas from rupakiriya and arupakiriya, kamavacara cittas are called mahakiriya cittas. Vipaka cittas are resultant consciousness and they will not give rise to any kammic force or effects. So do kiriya cittas. Kiriya cittas are just performance and they do not have any kammic force. There are 8 mahakusala cittas. They are_ 1.somanassa sahagatam nana samyuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 2.somanassa sahagatam nana samyuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 3.somanassa sahagatam nana vippayuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 4.somanassa sahagatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 5.upekkha sahagatam nana samyuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 6.upekkha sahagatam nana samyuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 7.upekkha sahagatam nana vippayuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 8.upekkha sahagatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 8 mahavipaka cittas are all the same with the exception just to change the name mahavipaka instead of mahakusala. And 8 mahakiriya cittas are also the same names with the exception to replace mahakiriya citta. Here, nana means panna or wisdom. It is amoha cetasika. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44095 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:42am Subject: Guardian Meditations htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are caturarakkha dhamma or 4 guardian dhamma. They protect the bearers. What are they? These caturarakkha dhamma or 4 guardian dhamma or 4 guardian meditations are 1. Buddhaanussati 2. Mettaasati 3. Asubhasati 4. Maranassati The best reference is The Buddha. The Buddha is completely free of all defilements and all fetters and The Buddha is free of vaasanaa or habit. No one is superior to The Buddha. So 'the mindfulness with reference to The Buddha and The Buddha's attributes' are the best dhamma and this will protect the bearer of this dhamma who grow 'the mindfulness in The Buddha and The Buddha's attributes'. People who always live with metta have a good guardian. That guardian is metta. Metta guards them. Metta helps out to be free from enemies. This happens because metta is the opposite of enemies. Enemies include intrinsic and extrinsic or internal and external. Internal enemy is dosa or hatred. This enemy is the chief. If we can tackle him we will conquer all enemies. External enemies are like 'weapon, fire, poison, animals' etc etc. Metta protects the bearers of metta. Asubhasati also protects those who bear 'the mindfulness on beings regarding as 'foul' 'unattractive' 'disgusting' 'non-beautiful' etc. Subha sanna or 'the idea that attractive, beautiful, desirable' knock down the Dhamma practitioners if they are not mindful on Dhamma. When this sati or mindfulness is always with us, it will protect us. Maranassati or 'the mindfulness that death is inevitable' is also a good dhamma. Almost everyone is full of maana or conceit and this again adds many other akusala if not mindful. Maana or conceit encroaches in different forms and different intensities. Only arahats will be totally free of conceit or maana. Otherwise all other beings are full of maana or conceit. Marana or death is the best tool to deal with 'maana' or conceit. Maranassati protects the bears of 'the mindfulness on death'. These 4 caturarakkha dhamma should be borne daily and as frequently as possible. Whatever kind of meditation is being performed, all these 4 caturarakkha dhamma should be borne with us. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44097 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi everyone, According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical precident for this understanding would be??? As always any help is greatly appreciated, Geoff 44098 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Forward from MomBetty (Re: Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever) christine_forsy... Dear Group, I received this beautiful comforting letter off-list but thought, as there is permission to do so, that I would share it with you all. metta, Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: mombetty@... To: Christine Forsyth Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: sincere condolences Dear Chris, What can I say; I'm no good with words. As I read your beautiful eulogy about Rusty tears came to my eyes, but not so much out of sadness because that is attachment, but rather of joy for the love, care and respect you, Sarah and Luke gave him in his last days in this life. You made his passing as comfortable as it could possibly be in remembrance for the love and companionship he so freely gave you in this life. There is no better illustration of metta and karuna (and maybe upekha later, when you finally feel at peace), from you and your family given to Rusty in those last hours spent with him. And that was truly kusala. Than Ajarn told us many times that there is no control over the last javanas that arise just before the cuti citta, the javanas that help determine what the very next life is to be. But I truly believe that the last hours and minutes spent with Rusty, letting him smell the familiar scents of leaves and your being with him, stroking him, telling him you love him must have provided conditions for those last javana cittas to bring "him" to life again in a "sobhana" realm. I cannot possibly know for sure, but I take comfort in that it might be so. I'm sorry that one of the list members felt your beautiful eulogy was not fitting for DSG. But then, of what use is Dhamma if it is divorced from everyday life? Your entire eulogy was filled with Dhamma: a life of dana by Rusty and the wonderful arising of metta and karuna during Rusty's last hours by making his passing as comfortable as it could possibly be. It was a lovely lesson for all of us. With lots of anomodhana for this truly beautiful act of dana, much love, Betty PS: I felt I should send this to you directly, but if you wish to share it with DSG, then by all means do so. ________________________________________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Bangkok 10900, Thailand 44099 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Re: Meditation/Stess/Research bupleurum Rahula: > Can anyone give me a few references to researches (in journal etc) > that supports the view that meditation reduces stress. > The following site has a huge, searchable database (100's of references) of research on the physical and psychological effects of meditation. It also has a series of on-line articles which summarize the research to date: http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch_intro1.htm Best wishes, Matthew 44100 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > In the Dhamma, 'consciousness' is the name given > to a particular class of phenomena that can be > directly expereinced. It is not to be confused with > the conventional concept of consciousness (and it has > nothing to do with brain, which is not a phenomenon > that is experienced at all in our life). The brain is that which experiences. It has everything to do with dhamma. All mental activities (including dhamma practice) occur in the brain. The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. The Buddha did not have access to this evidence, but would surely have elaborated a different theory of consciousness if he were born today instead of 2500 years ago. > The 'phenomena' of the Dhamma have no component parts > -- if they did then > those component parts, and not the compounded entity, > would be the phenomena spoken of ;-)) Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" which has no component parts? Matthew 44101 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:18pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew, I will use material from an earlier post of mine to respond to this. In a talk given by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he relates a story of one of his lay followers who went into meditation and after hours was sent to hospital presumed dead. He was put on an ECG and EEG and no signal could be measured. The doctors tried to resuscitate him by applying a number of electric shocks to no avail. The meditator decided to exit his meditation feeling fine but was confused as to why he woke up in a hospital. So if the brain is where the mind "resides" or is in fact the mind, what happened to this meditator when his heart and brain showed no electrical activity whatsoever for a number of hours? I believe that once the brain does not receive oxygenated blood for a period of 6 minutes it is likely that the person will experience some sort of brain damage. What about a few hours? Death must surely be the outcome here. Anyway, check out Ajahn Bramavamso's talk (the story is relayed about 10-12 minutes into the talk). http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Kind Regards, Evan -- Jon > In the Dhamma, 'consciousness' is the name given > to a particular class of phenomena that can be > directly expereinced. It is not to be confused with > the conventional concept of consciousness (and it has > nothing to do with brain, which is not a phenomenon > that is experienced at all in our life). -- Matthew The brain is that which experiences. It has everything to do with dhamma. All mental activities (including dhamma practice) occur in the brain. The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. The Buddha did not have access to this evidence, but would surely have elaborated a different theory of consciousness if he were born today instead of 2500 years ago. 44102 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, --------------------------- E: > Great isn't it? It challenged a lot of my preconceptions too -------------------------- I don't share your enthusiasm for Ajahn Brahmavamso's teaching. Opinions similar to those raised in his book have already been discussed on DSG. So the four points I listed weren't just preconceptions, they were also post-conceptions. :-) ------------------------------------------------ E: > (the first 3 you mention I also understood about jhana). ------------------------------------------------- I wonder why you left out the fourth - "the Bodhisatta proved that jhana did not lead to final release from Dukkha." I was simply referring to the historical account where Gotama took leave of his jhana instructors, convinced that they had not shown him Nibbana. Here's a quote from 'The Buddha and His Teachings' by Narada Maha Thera: "Still he felt that his quest for the highest truth was not achieved. He had gained complete mastery of his mind, but his ultimate goal was far ahead. He was seeking for the highest, the Nibbana, the complete cessation of suffering, the total extinction of all forms of craving. Dissatisfied with this doctrine too, he departed thence, content therewith no longer. "He realised that his spiritual aspirations were far higher than those under whom he chose to learn. He realised that there was none capable enough to teach him what he yearned for - the highest truth. He also realised that the highest truth is to be found within oneself and ceased to seek external aid." In order to support his opinions, Ajahn Brahmavamso had to show that the Buddha had not learnt jhana under his two former teachers. He relied on the fact that the Bodhisatta later remembered having attained jhana as a small child. I admit, that does suggest his teachers had taught him something else. But do other writers draw that conclusion? Naradha certainly didn't, nor do any others I can think of. If I had to take a wild guess, I would say it related to the fact that the Buddha was entirely self-taught. It was a little bit like instances in our own lives where we have heard an explanation and said, "Oh yes, that's true! I knew that. It just slipped my mind." :-) --------------------------------------------- E: > I am re-evaluating what I understand about jhana and its "position" in Buddhism. --------------------------------------------- Changing the subject for a moment: I was suggesting to Charles recently that it was better to hear, discuss and consider the Dhamma, as found in the chosen texts, rather than to be interested in one's own understanding. Do you see the point I was getting at? --------------------------------------------------------- E: > As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. ---------------------------------------------------------- I agree that every bhikkhu should be respected for his dedication, but there is no reason to believe his understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. Besides, every meditation teacher (bhikkhu or not) seems to contradict every other mediation teacher in one way or another. Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) Ken H 44103 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan wrote: > In a talk given by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he relates a story of > one of his lay followers who went into meditation and > after hours was sent to hospital presumed dead. He was put > on an ECG and EEG and no signal could be > measured. > check out Ajahn Bramavamso's talk > http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/audio_downloads.htm Thanks for the link, Evan. I listened to the recording by Ajahn Brahmavamso. A very interesting anecdote. But, from a scientific point of view, that's all it is -- an anecdote. If someone were to reproduce what Brahmavamso claims occured (no EKG or EEG signal whatsoever, for hours) this would be an extraordinary discovery indeed. But as Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I am very skeptical of Brahmavamso's story, and for a number of reasons. First of all, a voluminous amount of research has been done on meditation (you can find a large database of research here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44099) Since the 1930s, scientists have been doing empirical studies of yoga and meditation. Many of the early researchers travelled throughout India with electro-encephalographs and accessory instruments to record respiration, skin temperature, skin conductance, and finger blood- volume changes in meditating yogis. There is a large amount of documentation of their findings, much of it summarized at the website above. Studies have confirmed that meditating yogis can produce remarkable changes in their autonomic functions. They can lower their EKG and pulse to very low levels. Amazing changes also occur in their EEG readings, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second. Similar studies have been done on practitioners in other traditions, including Japanese Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, TM and Theravadan Vipassana. However, none of these studies has ever documented a practitioner who was able to actually cease *all* of the electrical activity in the heart and/or brain. This would indeed be a miraculous feat since only a few minutes of oxygen deprivation is enough to do permanent brain damage. I don't believe that the frantic emergency room described in Brahmavamso's story is a very reliable source of information. It should not be difficult to reproduce those events under more controlled conditions. But based on all the evidence we have from a great many other studies, I wouldn't hold my breath. Matthew P.S. With the advent of modern imaging techniques, such as PET and MRI, research on the physiology of meditation has gone way beyond mere EEG and brain waves. See this article for a summary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 44104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew --- Matthew Miller wrote: ... > The brain is that which experiences. It has everything to do with > dhamma. All mental activities (including dhamma practice) occur in > the brain. The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. The presently arising phenomena do not include a 'brain'. The existence of a brain at this moment can only be inferred. It is not part of the 'world' that appears and can be verified by direct experience. > The Buddha did not have access to this evidence, but would surely have > elaborated a different theory of consciousness if he were born today > instead of 2500 years ago. What in particular do you think would be different about the 4 Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the 5 khandhas, the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc, if the Buddha were born today insttead of 2500 years ago? > > The 'phenomena' of the Dhamma have no component parts > > -- if they did then > > those component parts, and not the compounded entity, > > would be the phenomena spoken of ;-)) > > Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" which has no component > parts? Some examples are: seeing consciousness, the object experienced by seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness, the object experienced by hearing consciousness, hardness, attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa). Jon 44105 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 7:53 pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear RobertK (and Azita) - The drunken Santati's attainment of Arahantship in such a short period of time was a huge step change - an incredible transformation. Wasn't it an unusual case, Rob? I think Santati must have no other faults beside the drinking and clinging to sensuality. How would you explain this incredible story? Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > There is the Dhammapada 142 commentary > Santati the minister: For seven days, the king's minister enjoyed > himself to his heart's content, getting intoxicated with drink and > infatuated with the young dancer. On the seventh day, riding the > ornamented royal elephant, he went down to the riverside for a bath. > On the way, he met the Buddha going on an alms-round, and being > drunk, he just bowed casually, as a sign of respect to the > Buddha. Santati and his party spent the whole day at the > riverside, bathing, eating, drinking and thus thoroughly enjoying > themselves. (snipped) The Buddha then instructed the minister in verse. > The meaning of the verse is as follows. > > "In the past there has been in you clinging (upadana) due to > craving; get rid of it. In future, do not let such clinging occur in > you. Do not also harbour any clinging in the present; by not having > any clinging, craving and passion will be calmed in you and you will > realize Nibbana." > > After hearing the verse, the minister attained arahatship" > RobertK 44106 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 8:41 pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 160- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya accompanies all akusala cittas and all sobhana cittas (1) (including jhånacittas and lokuttara cittas), but it does not arise with all vipåkacittas and with all kiriyacittas. Viriya does not accompany the dvi-pañca-viññåùas, the sense-cognitions. Seeing or hearing do not need viriya in order to experience their objects. The mind-door adverting-consciousness, mano-dvåråvajjana-citta and the hasituppåda-citta which causes smiling in the case of arahats are the only ahetuka cittas (rootless cittas) which are accompanied by viriya (2). We read in the Visuddhimagga that the function of viriya is to consolidate conascent states. Viriya strengthens, supports the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies so that they can carry out their work and do not “collapse”. *** 1) Sobhana cittas, beautiful cittas, are cittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. They include not only kusala cittas but also vipåkacittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas and kiriyacittas (of the arahat) accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. The sobhana cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara sobhana cittas, are: mahå-kusala cittas, mahå-vipåkacittas and mahå-kiriyacittas. “Mahå” means: ”great”. Sobhana cittas also include jhånacittas and lokuttara cittas. 2) For details see Appendix 4. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44107 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear RobertK (and Azita) - > > The drunken Santati's attainment of Arahantship in such a short period > of time was a huge step change - an incredible transformation. Wasn't > it an unusual case, Rob? I think Santati must have no other faults > beside the drinking and clinging to sensuality. > > How would you explain this incredible story? > > > --------------- Dear tep, not so incredible I think. He had developed the right path for aeons, it was time. The commentary to this sutta notes that the alcohol in his blood was burned away as insight grew. This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong path it will only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future lives. Robertk 44108 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Dear Htoo, Chris, Azita, RobK & All, I mentioned that ‘we also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be developed by paying special attention to particular objects’. We were reminded that there is no need for any particular reflections, such as reflections on the Buddha’s virtues or recollections on death, for example. Otherwise, again there’s bound to be attachment when there’s any idea of specially thinking of any object in order to have calm and attachment is likely to arise after such reflections too. As we know, the path is subtle and we may not be aware of the attachments and expectations creeping in at these times. Even at such times of special attending, however, there can be moments of satipatthana, understanding the mental states when there’s such ‘trying to think’ with attachment. Of course, this doesn’t mean there cannot naturally and spontaneously be wholesome reflections on the Buddha’s virtues or death or other objects in our ordinary daily life, but I think it’s easy to misunderstand passages such as the following one as suggesting instructions to follow, rather than a description of the wise as we’ve discussed in other contexts: "The monk devoted to this recollection of death is at all time indefatigable, gains the idea of disgust with regard to all forms of existence, gives up delight in life, detests evil, does not hoard up things, is free from stinginess with regard to the necessities of life, the idea of impermanence (anicca) becomes familiar to him; and through pursuing it, the idea of misery (dukkha) and of impersonality (anattá) become present to him .... Free from fear and bewilderment will he pass away at death; and should he not yet realize the Deathless State in his life-time, he will at the dissolution of the body attain to a happy course of existence" (Vis.M. VIII). ***** As we were reminded in this context, it’s very easy to stick to the words of the teachings, without any understanding at this moment. We can talk about maranussati (recollection of death) for example or set aside a time for these reflections, but what about this moment? It’s only thinking, not understanding the present dhammas, or the arising and falling away of these dhammas now. We also discussed how there cannot be any growth of samatha (calm) or developed wholesome concentration, such as access(upacara), without momentary calm being apparent first. If we give or have metta now, the calm may not be apparent. But when there’s more development of these or other kinds of wholesome states, the calm shows up and becomes more and more apparent in ordinary life. Again, this is not by any wishing or special attention. So the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences between the development of concentration and calm. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah ========= 44109 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocterabb... Hi Andrew L, (Tep, AN inquirer see* at end of post) Thank you for being patient – I believe I replied to 3 of your big posts before I went away, but have another couple which I didn’t get to in front of me:-). I was also very glad to see you having discussions with Connie, Jon and others and to read your reports on your meeting with B.Bodhi* As usual, in this post you raise good questions: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Creating more metta will still be a challenge, as will maintaining it, > but reading about metta and > harmlessness has helped. I have sent out thoughts of harmlessness to my > ex's, over a mile past my > house from my bedroom when I was first being introduced to dharma. Less > rigid thought patterns, > and getting metta to flow, was how it was done. .... S: We had a big laugh in Bkk last week when one friend was talking about the metta he had for Jon when he was far, far away (as opposed to sitting near him in a dhamma discussion:-)). The point was that metta is friendliness or kindness, without it being any special person when we’re on the bus, in the same room, going to the store and so on. It’s like generosity – we can think about it in our bedroom, but what about the actual sharing and giving when we have opportunities? (This doesn’t mean you can’t have kind thoughts or metta even at other times on your own, but whether on our own or with people, the near enemy of attachment is always nearby, I think). .... > This brings me to a point I should have made earlier. I still want you > to know that I think people can > follow the instructions from a book, from an online PDF, and create > metta, and do contemplations and > meditations as found in Vism. and countless other, modern, and ancient > texts. In the Vism, do we not > have the statement that for repulsiveness of the body meditation one > should go to a good friend, and > learn the skills? One has to recite the names of the body parts orally > and mentally for just under a year > and learn other skills as well. Then one goes to a secluded place and > begins contemplating on each of > the body parts until one becomes clearest. .... S: This is not how I understand the passages. See my last message (Musings3). I think such following of instructions are motivated by clinging to Self – trying to have metta, repulsiveness for the body and so on, rather than understanding what is conditioned at this very moment of trying so hard. ..... > I brought up the additional example of having read a PDF where the > instructor recommended one find > a characteristic or manifestation of each element in a specific part of > the body, say, the mouth, and go > on to try to detect similar qualities throughout the body to eventually > be mindful of the elements > throughuot the entire body. This, too, is sort of done by a person > intentionally, a deliberate practise. > However this is not just waiting for conditions to come up. ... S: As you point out, this is ‘done by a person intentionally’. It is not the understanding of elements as anatta, as conditioned dhammas. Awareness and understanding have to develop with detachment, not selection. .... > Additionally, you can look at the nine charnel contemplations as an > example of something we must > deliberately do (if we choose to do it, that is), not just fit into > daily life. And even if we do do > Abhidhamma in 'daily life' I read in Nina's book that we are to be > mindful of realities appearing in the > moment. Isn't this similar to what I proposed, being mindful in the > present moment, only making my > practise the focus of my life, not having my practise be recognizing > something here and there in a > completely diferent life. .... S: When it’s something ‘we must deliberately do’, it’s not understanding in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo on this topic? It was very good. Being aware of realities appearing now is not the same as having a special practice as you describe. No self can be aware and if there’s any trying to be aware, the reality is attachment, not awareness. .... > I have given you the example of sati, of how I have established > mindfulness of the entire body, which > transfers over to mindfulness in sitting meditation. Nina proposes to > counter ignorance or aversion we > need mindfulness. Again, what do you see this mindfulness as. .... S: What you describe as mindfulness, I see as a special focusing. The mindfulness which counters ingnorance or aversion is not any focusing, but the momentary awareness which arises, is aware of any dhamma appearing (without any selection) and falls away immediately. If there is a wish or intention for it to arise or be aware of a particular object such as sensations in the body, this will be a hindrance, as I see it. .... >And how > would you distinguish the > kind of mindfulness I talk about, being aroused intentionally, vs the > kind of mindfulness that you > speak about that is for one nama or rupa, but does not have the four > foundations of mindfulness as its > proximate cause (instead discussing the teachings?)? .... S: the four foundations are the proximate cause: hardness, softness, heat, cold, feeling, anger, attachment, seeing, visible object – these are examples of dhammas included in the four foundations. Without the arising of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears (i.e is the object of the javana cittas). It’s impossible for mindfulness or any other dhamma to be ‘aroused intentionally’ except in our imaginations. .... >Please forgive me > if I addressed this in one of > the other two posts on this thread, I just feel it's an essesntial > point. If you can, please go back to > where I described this originally and think about it. We should be able > to reconcile these two views, > don't you think? ... S: I agree it is THE essential point. Whilst we continue to think that dhammas can be controlled or that there is a self to do this, there won’t be any awareness of namas and rupas as elements. I don’t honestly think there is any reconciliation between the ideas of following a manual to be aware of particular objects (often not even dhammas) in order and understanding what satipatthana really means. <....> > Right but can't we endeavor to learn about different realities by way of > thinking ourselves into learning > about them, say, by reading about the characteristics of dosa, moha, and > lobha, in > Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life?' .... S: It’s helpful, very helpful, to read and reflect on different realities as you’re doing. I’m not exactly sure of your Qu, but if you’re wondering if we can think ourselves into being aware of dhammas, then the answer is no. We can read and consider in order to understand dhammas as anatta better, but not specially try to experience what we read about. .... > I'm with you for non-conceptual awareness, but would you believe me if a > noble one told me to > note 'aversion, aversion' where it appears? .... S: I would say, be wary of any advice in the name of ‘a noble one’. See my Musings2 post. Noting ‘aversion, aversion’ where it appears is not the development of satipatthana as I understand. Andrew, please don’t be misled by what you’ve heard about others’ attainments. ... > Sorry if this one's a little messy, I had to rush to get the post in. > 45-50 minutes for computer group. ... S: It wasn’t messy at all. Good points and I enjoy our discussions. I apologise for sounding so emphatic at times. Metta, Sarah *Tep and Andrew, sometimes I draw B.Bodhi’s attention to particular posts here, so I will do this with your report of the meeting and Tep’s Qus. He may or may not respond, but if he does, I’ll forward any response to the list. (I’ll try to do it next week sometime). If anyone has anything else they’d like me to draw to his attention, pls let me know here in the next few days. Someone (I forget who- Geoff?) asked about the translations of Anguttara Nikaya. The only complete translation for now is the PTS one, but BB has been working on his complete translation (expanding the excellent anthology ‘Numerical Discourses’) for sometime. The work has been hampered a lot by his long-standing headaches. As I write this, I’ve just remembered that there is a translation of AN on line here, along with the Pali: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html ==== 44110 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 2 sarahprocterabb... Hi Andrew L, Here’s the second one: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I do not know that sati arises with all kinds of wholesome > consciousness, at all. I know that it can > maintain wholesome states and prevent negative, unwholesome states but > it is new to me that it arises > with all wholesome states. If this is true. ... S: We need to distinguish between sati (awareness) which arises with all wholesome consciousness – any moment of dana, sila or bhavana—and sati in satipatthana which only aware of a nama or rupa and is always accompanied by right understanding. .... > It seems to me that if wise reflection can condition sati, or reflecting > on the nature of a nama or rupa > after discussion about it or reading the dhamma, it is not such a long > jump to say that sati can be > conditioned intentionally, through sitting meditation. .... S: It can never be conditioned intentionally by any means in that it arises dependent on conditions such as wise reflection, not on a wishing or special intention to have it arise. There is a big difference between atta view and anatta view. .... >At the least, > wholesome deeds conditioning sati > can get a good portion of it going. What other methods are there for > the arising of sati, that you > acknowledge, and do I get you right, that it is your position that sati > can be mindful of nama and rupa > by discussing the nature of that particular nama or rupa? This would > seem to contradict your position > that we have to wait for whichever nama and rupa comes to the fore on > any given occasion to be > mindful of it. ... S: More good questions. I know it may seem contradictory but it’s not. Remember, it’s not self that performs good deeds, discusses namas and rupas or waits. The discussion is merely for the purpose of understanding that whether we do this or that, there are in fact only conditioned namas and rupas arising and falling away and not in anyone’s control. Right now as we speak there is seeing and visible object. There can be immediate awareness of one of these when their characteristics appear. When seeing appears and awareness arises (not by any trying), there is no other world, no thinking, no hearing, no Andrew or Sarah at all. It’s just the dhamma which experiences what is seen. Likewise, if there’s awareness of what is seen (i.e visible object), there is no sound, no thought, nothing else appearing at that moment. There are no problems, no disturbances, no clinging to details. No one can choose to have seeing, visible object, hearing or any other dhamma appear at any instant. Now there may be a subtle attention or trying to experience seeing, but this is another dhamma – thinking or attachment—and these too can be known. .... > There is some correlation here with your view and mine, for instance, if > wrong views arise, or moha > or dosa, it is said (in ADL, and by inference I assume that you agree > with this stance) that being > mindful of it is the way to eradicate these defilements. .... S: yes. If wrong view, moha or any other defilement doesn’t appear, it can’t be known and gradually eradicated. So instead of being dismayed, we can welcome any defilements as objects of satipatthana. (btw, sometime I wan’t to correct something I said before about wrong view and kamma patha, but will do so later, maybe in a Musing). .... > Please describe further how the sati that you describe can be cultivated > and what other function(s) it > has. Certainly one moment of sati conditions the next, but there must > be an initial cause. .... S: Here we are talking about sati of satipatthana. It develops by firstly understanding its characteristic and then beginning to understand when it arises. This may sound simple but it isn’t because there is so little and it’s so weak in the beginning, surrounded by lots of ignorance. So it’s common for there to be doubts and uncertainties. (KenH & Charles,: in the Kalama sutta, it reads ‘you may well doubt’ {i.e it’s natural to doubt], not ‘you should doubt’ – as you say, doubt is always unwholesome). The initial cause for sati is reflection or ‘firm remembrance’ whilst reflection on the teachings as Azita and Nina have been discussing. If we don’t hear/read and consider carefully about namas and rupas, there won’t be any development of sati. If we reflect and try to have sati arise, there also won’t be any sati:-). .... > Certainly right view does not encompass complex theories about the > detailed workings of worlds, but > it has been said that right view should include knowledge that beings > are reborn spontaneously, and or > in accordance with their deeds (kamma & vipaka) and it should include > knowledge of suffering and its > origin, cessation, and way to practise for its cessation (ie, reflection > on the four noble truths, mundane > right view.) .... S: It has to develop. If there is no clear understanding of namas and rupas directly, there cannot be any higher understanding. .... >I would like to discuss this more with you, as right view > is the first path factor that should > be cultivated in the Noble Eightfold Path, and in one of the books I am > reading to foster right view, > ("The Four Noble Truths" by Francis Story) the author talks about the > psychological mechanism > whereby suffering is suppressed from coming to the fore of our > consciousness and we therefore take > refuge in pleasure and pleasurable experiences. .... S: Before there can be any understanding of the Truth of Suffering as inherent in all conditioned dhammas, those dhammas have to be directly known first. In other words, if there is no awareness of seeing or visible object, there won’t be any understanding of the impermanence of those dhammas or the suffering as a result of such impermanence. ... >I have seen suffering > of other people and recognized > my own, but reflecting on this, and the principles of kamma, to create > something that can qualify as > right view, is not an easy task. ... S: Right. This is just thinking about suffering and kamma rather than directly understanding them. If you look in U.P. under ‘dukkha’, you’ll see there are 3 kinds of dukkha. What you see and experience is the first kind, ‘dukkha, dukkha’ (unpleasant mental and bodily experiencies), rather than the second kind (of change) or the third kind which is the inherent dukkha of all conditioned dhammas. It’s good you appreciate the difficulty. ... > I again would disagree that wrong view of self is the cause of all wrong > views. ... S: When wrong view of self is eradicated, so are all other wrong views. We can discuss this further, but this is getting too long now, so I’ll wait for any replies from you to any of my earlier posts or these ones first. Many thanks for all your other helpful comments which I’ve had to snip. Look forward to hearing how any of mine sound and where you see the differences now. Metta, Sarah ====== 44111 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Ken, > > I > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > Kind Regards, > > Evan >======== Dear Evan, wow, I just read the article. Surprisng that a Theravada monk would write something like this. Do you know him, maybe you can help him to drop his beliefs? Robertk 44112 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] I am new and Learning sarahprocterabb... Dear Inga (and any other Newbies), --- ingafrankie wrote: > For someone who is very new and wanting to learn more. What would you > suggest for myself to read and study. > Thanks for any help ... Firstly, a belated welcome from me to DSG!. Please consider telling us a little more about yourself and where you live. I know Jon and Nina gave brief replies. I'd suggest: 1) Ask your own questions (the simpler the better) and just follow these threads or others in simple language until you have more familiarity with Pali terms and the various ideas being discussed here. 2) As Jon suggested, look at the posts under 'New to the list and new to Dhamma' in Useful Posts in the files section. 3) Look at either of these books by Nina Van Gorkom: 'Buddhism in Daily Life' or 'The Buddha's Path' and see if you find them helpful. If so, consider downloading them for easier reading: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 4) Print out the simple Pali glossary in the files section 5)Keep a link to Nyantiloka's dictionary handy for understanding more about key terms or concepts: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html 6) Let us know how you're getting one. We've all been new to it all and you'll do us a favour by asking any questions or making any comments of your own. Metta, Sarah ======== 44113 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H sarahprocterabb... Hi KenH (& Evan), You're having a good discussion. --- kenhowardau wrote: > > By the way, there was typo in my previous message: I meant to say a > dvihetu-patisandhika (person born with only two of the three noble > root conditions) was born with alobha and adosa - not amoha and > adosa. ... S: I didn't notice the typo, but wasn't sure that it was correct to suggest those with two roots could develop satipatthana. It's a bit of a sensitive one as I know someone else (maybe Kel) has suggested that those with two roots can attain to the highest insights, but not become sotapannas. This was contrary to my understanding, so I asked for a reference which I'm patiently waiting for:-). Meanwhile, I don't believe that any development of satipatthana is possible for them in this life, though other kinds of kusala, such as dana and sila are, which may act as supporting conditions for satipatthana in future. Some people listened to the Buddha but didn't develop any understanding. In any case, it's not an important point and easily leads to speculations about things we can have no idea about:-/. ... > Possibly, yes, but I would think it extremely unlikely. The hard > part of jhana development is not so much living in rags at the foot > of a tree in the middle of nowhere: the hard part is getting to the > stage where taking up that lifestyle would be a beneficial thing to > do. For us ordinary people, hunger, cold, biting insects, > isolation, etc., etc., would be the last things to bring about > tranquillity. .... :-)) Metta, Sarah p.s Evan, are you in Australia too?Y ======== 44114 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Hi James (& Joop), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and Joop, > > Sarah: In any case I thought James told Nina he was just going quiet > and reading posts. > > James: Yes, that is right, I haven't left the group. I am just > reading posts and seeing how things develop. ... S:Thanks for clarifying and for your other comments. Now Bali – how about a DSG get together there if India and Thailand don’t work for you???:-). Seriously, I thought I always communicated with everyone here in a friendly style, but you’ve pointed out the delusion I must work with:-/ Let’s hope things don’t go rapidly downhill now that we’re back to ‘control and overshadow things’. Sounds most ominous. It’s actually a bit of a mystery to me as to whether you’re really happy or sad when we go away, but no need to answer that. ... > James: I liked what Kel had to say about that also. He had his head > on straight. Unfortunately, I am not so magnanimous. .... S: Oh well, we all have different strengths and weaknesses. As Nina pointed out, you have your own good qualities, most importantly, a very keen studying and questioning of the Teachings and great confidence in them. No need to compare oneself with others, otherwise most likely mana (conceit) will be there again as it is for all of us so much more often than we like to admit. Perhaps we can just learn to appreciate any examples of magnanimity or other good states we see and this in itself is a kind of ‘anumodana’ or rejoicing in others’ good fortune, a kind of mudita (sympathetic joy) which I referred to yesterday. I find it makes life so much easier when there is more mudita in daily life ( it’s free and doesn’t depend on anyone’s praise:-)). I think it's a very important quality that is not discussed much outside Buddhist countries or communities - rejoicing in others generosity, good sila, kindness, good fortune of any kind and so on. Some of your comments reminded me of some similar ones that another friend made a long time ago. Here are the links to a couple of replies which I found helpful by Kom and Betty, following some reminders of Howard’s which I also found useful and compassionate: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12884 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12887 Just ignore them if they don’t work for you. I’m always very glad to hear any of your reflections on any aspects of the Dhamma, James and once again, I apologise for any of my short-comings. Let me know if there are any Dhamma topics you’d like to discuss anytime. Metta, Sarah ========> 44115 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Madness: Seeing with the Tongue sarahprocterabb... Hi Matthew*(RobM & James), Another oldie- I'm actually very interested to see where your various threads lead. Many of the articles you point to are in areas where I have an interest as I mentioned, but the difference is that I don't see them as having any bearing on understanding any Truths of any real significance in life (i.e for understanding the 4 Noble Truths) which is why I turned to the dhamma, paticularly the abhidhamma when I became disillusioned with psychology and cognitive science as being able to really make sense of the world. --- Matthew Miller wrote: > From a scientific point of view, abhidhamma is based on 1) scriptural > authority, and/or 2) personal observation of one's own consciousness > (introspection). While useful, these are actually the two poorest > forms of evidence. The difficulties with scriptural authority should > be obvious, so I'll focus on introspection. ... S: From a scientific point of view, yes. From an understanding of (abhi)dhamma, I'm not sure I see it being based on either of these. .... > At best, introspection is one tool among many for learning about the > mind. But it is not without its flaws. > > Some have held that introspective access to one's mental states cannot > be erroneous or, at least, that it overrides all other evidence. > Descartes is famous for this. The Abhidhamma seems to fall in this > camp as well, with its insistence that nama/rupa arising in > consciousness are "ultimate realities." ... S: I agree that introspection is very unreliable. I don't equate the development of satipatthana with introspection (a kind of thinking about experiences). Namas and rupas can be proved by the development of satipatthana to be 'ultimate realities' or any other name. Seeing can be tested and proved right now to be a nama without any self in it. Visible object can be proved to be the dhamma which is seen, the only light reality. If it wasn't possible, the Buddha wouldn't have taught the path. it can never be understood through scientific research. Incidentally, I tried to find (without success)a detailed post I wrote to RobM in a good discussion we had on another area of research you touched on relating to areas of the brain which researchers conclude is related to 'self' and 'non-self' awareness. Rob, can you give a link to our earlier discussion or my post as I think Matthew might find it interesting. James may have also participated. If either of you have any further comments, I'd be glad of your input here too. .... > But introspection can be very erroneous. Psychological research has > found that, in introspection, we often misrepresent our own mental > states. Many introspective judgments result from confabulation. > People literally invent mental states to explain their own behavior in > ways that are expected or acceptable. Daniel Dennett and others have > argued that all introspective reports can be treated as reports of > useful fictions. ... S: I agree with all this - it has no connection with insight as far as I know. It's like when people discuss their meditative experiences without having heard about namas and rupas. .... > Blindsight is a well-documented phenomenon in which a blind person can > accurately point to an object. In the time of the Buddha, this would > certainly have been taken as a example of ESP or mystical power. .... S: I'm not so sure at all.....I think there may well be other explanations. Metta, Sarah *When some of us referred recently to meeting Matt in Bkk, it was to Matt R, not to Matthew M, addressed here as Matt also by some. ===== 44116 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 11:00pm Subject: Away for Weekend upasaka_howard Hi, all - I will reply to any posts intended for me after the weekend. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44117 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:20am Subject: OK - Kalama Sutta - Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles I see some thing needs to be clarified that is a tad off a point I was trying to make. http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay09.html There is some truth to this link. The Goal of the Kalama Sutta is to point people (free thinkers and bounded thinkers) to what is really important and true, and that they should not be ignore what is really important and true just because .... What is true and important "When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them." " Now ask your self -- does doctrine, ...etc. fall under this, no. Therefore it is ok to doubt. However don't doubt those things that are bad, blamable, ...etc. This means it is ok to doubt the doctrine of no-self, but don't doubt that it is bad to steal, ...etc. Don't doubt the effects of morality and immorality. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Forsyth <...> Hello KenH, Charles,and all, This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on "A look at the Kalama Sutta" "On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he likes. But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we meet in these claims just another set of variations on that egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever notions are congenial to oneself -- or to those to whom one is preaching?" http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/look_at_kalama_sutta.php <...> 44118 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, KH: > > I see what you mean, however, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha), is not blind faith: it is confidence in wholesomeness. Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.' ---------------------------- C: > It is blind when the faith is not based on the "experience" (i.e., seen, heard,etc...) as the truth. When you think it is true because it is logical, or a teacher --including the Buddha--, etc..., convinces you of its truth. I have no-clue what you could mean by: "Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.'" ------------------- KH: I agreed that faith, in the ordinary sense of the word, could be wholesome or unwholesome. When it is unwholesome [blind] faith it can, as you said, "block you from seeing the truth." Then I said, "However, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha) is not blind faith; it is confidence in wholesomeness." Do you see the difference? An absolute reality always has the same characteristics, function and manifestation. Saddha can only be kusala: it can never be akusala. So, for example, it could never "block you from seeing the truth." ............................................. Faith is empty (neither wholesome or unwholesome), what you have faith-in can be considered wholesome or unwholesome. So, is your faith/confidence in the no-self doctrine "blind" or based on what you have experienced as true? **************************** KH: > > . . . Therefore, it is not justifiable to think of faith or doubt <. . .> in those ways. To think of either of them, "This is mine," is to have attachment (lobha); "This am I" is to have conceit (mana), and, "This is my self," is to have wrong view (miccha-ditthi). They are unwholesome (akusala) misconceptions. ------------------- C: > I don't understand what you are trying to say. ------------------- K: I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says. There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? ......................................... If at the moment of conception, with the three (I, my-self, mine), you are place/born in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are right. However, if it does not place "you" in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are wrong. Remember the real issues are "desire" and "attachment." Therefore, if you understand how to transform/transmute these two so that you can avoid the cycles of suffering, even when the three (I, my-self, mine) are born, you have the Right Understanding. ******************** KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. The Dhamma, however, requires purely kusala study and purely kusala practice. ----------------------------------- C: > Wrong again, I know of killers who use Dhamma to sharpen their skills as killers. Now if you consider killing as wholesome, well ... What is a "purely kusala study and purely kusala practice?" -------------------- KH: If we are listening to a Dhamma talk for the wrong reasons - attachment, aversion or ignorance - then that listening will not lead to insight. Killers might listen to a Dhamma talk in order to sharpen their killing skills, but that is not Dhamma study: it won't increase their insight, and it won't lead to enlightenment. As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. .............................................. This is also true (90%) for any type of study, science and music included, not just Dharama. I say 90% because if you look at that "insight" as just clear understanding alone then ... Now if that clear understanding is rooted in morality then, you are 100% correct. ***************** C: > Have you experienced this as true, or do you except this by faith? Often, faith and doubt, is what keeps you trapped; lost in I, me, and mine. ---------------- KH: I am trying to say that I don't see Dhamma study and Dhamma practice in quite the same way you do. Rather than have conventional theories about faith, doubt, love, hate, and all the other mental factors, I just want to understand the actual dhammas; saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on. So for me, Dhamma study is the study of dhammas. That might seem dry and impersonal, but it is the only way to go (in my opinion). ..................................... What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" ********************* C: > > > So you disagree with the Kalama suttra? A case in point: The Buddha claimed that experience is the truth you should accept as real (Ref:Kalama Suttra). However, scientist today have proven that the senses can be fooled, therefore what you experience may not be real. This is a contradiction, and you should be asking your-self, "So what can be relied on as Truth/real?" ------------------------- K: > > I like that, and I agree entirely. ------------------------- C: > So are you ready to go for the Masters? ------------------ KH: I agreed for reasons that you might consider wrong reasons. And then I rambled on with a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean much to me - now that I look at it again. The Kalama Sutta is hard to interpret. At first sight, it seems to be saying that doubt (vicikiccha) can be a good thing. But vicikiccha is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing. As you have often said, difficulty in explaining indicates a shaky grasp of the subject matter. I might leave it to others to explain my understanding of the Kalama Sutta. :-) I will just say that the KS is frequently misquoted. Contrary many popular interpretations, it does not tell us to value our own experiences above the teaching of a Buddha. ......................................... When you say "... doubt (vicikiccha) ... is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing." I am force to say, you are being one dimensional, extreme. You have lost sight of the Middle Path. What the KS does tell us. If a teaching of any type, including a Buddha's, contradicts what you know to true, value what you know to be true more. ChgarlesD 44119 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] dacostacharles Hi Evan, You asked: {To those that believe the brain is everything or the brain is mind, the link below is to a talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso (about 6MB download) in which he describes a meditator who while in Jhana was about to be pronounced dead. My question is: how can one be "dead" but still have a mind if it is the brain that provides the mind? } I am sure that Ajahn Brahmavamso would agree that when one is in the high Jhana, there is very little mind activity. When there is very there is very little mind activity, there is very little brain activity. If your brain activity is well below normal (not necessarily 0), you would be pronounced dead. However, sciences has admitted that there are still discoveries to be made (they don't know it all). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 06 April, 2005 02:49 Subject: [dsg] http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Evan 44120 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing with the Tongue dacostacharles Hi Andrew, You say "The point I was trying to make - and didn't do a very clear job of it - is that it is a mistake to equate "natural" with "ethical". " I agree 100% but then I am not a complete evolutionist. In the evolutionist camp, what is natural is ethical, but what is natural is different for each species. For example, it would be unnatural for a primate child to eat its mother. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew <...> Andrew: In schoolbooks in Elizabethan England, children were encouraged to copy the "good" behaviour of bees and ants - "working hard", "devotion to a Queen", "thrift" and so on. But that was, of course, people superimposing their own ethical outlook on nature. As Gould pointed out, none of these schoolbooks ever dealt with creatures that DIDN'T fit with the ethical ideas of the authors e.g. there is a species of wasp in which the newly born young devour their mother! Nobody ever told the school kiddies that this was "natural" behaviour and therefore "good". Charles, with your comments, you are merely superimposing your own ethical ideas onto nature and saying "this is good" but "that is bad". The point I was trying to make - and didn't do a very clear job of it - is that it is a mistake to equate "natural" with "ethical". <....> 44121 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Jon, You ask the following good questions: { 1) You mention 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one'. Can you put that in more specific terms (preferably by reference to something in the suttas or other texts)? 2) You seem to be saying that single-pointed concentration on an object must involve clinging. If so, what do you understand by the development of samatha/jhana? } The Idea of 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one' is a Mahayana concept. And, from a Therevadin prospective, it is based on something call the Radiant Wheel of Dependant Origination. I am sorry to say I can't remember the suttra references, but hopefully I will be vesting a Tai (Forest monk tradition) center in a few weeks, so I intend on getting the book on DO that talks about the Radiant Wheel. Samatha/jhana is not a natural state, you work at creating and preserving it. If you have to work at keeping the state, you are clinging to it (Mahayanist like to call this transformed clinging). The analogy of the monkey mind is more natural. I am defining clinging very broadly, "to resist separation from, or the changing of." CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 04 April, 2005 10:28 Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Charles DaCosta wrote: > This is a tough one (the idea) so I understand why you could be feeling > lost. > "In a nut shell" > > The point of not suffering even though there is clinging is based on the > principle of transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening > one. This takes wisdom concentration, and morality/basic goodness. > > An example of this is the practice of single pointed meditation that is > fixed on an object. We are actually clinging to the object. > > Does that help?? 44122 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections htootintnaing So the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences between the development of concentration and calm. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah ========= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, I think there is needed to penetrate conventional things. Ultimate things cannot voice itself. But through conventional things. I know 'someone is going to a forest and sit under a tree with crossed leg with erect body and trying to develop sati and panna'. With Great Compassion, Htoo Naing 44123 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing Hi, Will deal with later. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and > rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? > > I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that > jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical > precident for this understanding would be??? > > As always any help is greatly appreciated, > > Geoff 44124 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: Seeing with the Tongue bupleurum Andrew: > Charles, with your comments, you are > merely superimposing your own ethical ideas onto nature and > saying "this is good" but "that is bad". > it is a mistake to equate "natural" with "ethical". I agree with you about superimposing primate ethics onto the behavior of ants and bees. However, these ethics are not just anyone's "own ethical ideas." Our ethical instincts are those of primates and they evolved in the natural world. We are communal creatures, and we evolved an ethics which reflects the demands of a interdependence between highly intelligent creatures. Our own ethical behavior is based on thoughts and feelings of guilt, reciprocity, obligation, expectations, rules, and community concern which are adaptations to our unique primate social situation. This situation evolved over millions of years. Like dogs, elephants and other communal creatures, we are remarkably trainable since we have adapted to a rule-based social order. Dogs are an example of another species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores. On the other hand, our moral sensibilities are often appalled by the behavior of animals less similar to us, such as cuckoos. Cuckoos are parasitic birds that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds, which then act as unknowing foster parents. After hatching, the baby cuckoo will throw the host's own chicks out of the nest. From our primate point of view, cuckoos violate all kinds of precepts :-) In behaving this way, are cuckoos accumulating bad karma? If someone were to answer yes, then I would suggest that they are "superimposing" primate morality on a cosmic scale. Matthew 44125 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 7:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread (307) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of death or 'catu maranuppatti'. Death is cessation of life. 'Aayukkhayena, kammakkhayena, ubhayakkhayena, upacchedaka kammunaa ceti catudhaa maranuppatti naama'. Aayu means 'lifespan' 'life' 'existence'. Khaya means 'used up' 'emptied' 'expiration'. Ubhaya means 'both' 'two'. Upacchedaka is 'cutting up when both lifespan and kamma still allow further staying or further living or further existing'. Ceti = Ca + iti = such Catu means 'four' and catudhaa means 'four folds'. Marana means 'death' and uppatti means 'arising'. Maranuppatti means 'arising of death' or 'occurrence of death'. There are 4 kinds of death. They are 1) aayukkhayena or using-up / expiration of lifespan 2) kammakkhayena or using-up of kamma that allows a limited stay 3) ubhayakkhayena or using-up of both lifespan and kamma 4) upacchedaka or cutting up of life while both lifespan and kamma are still there. People or beings are all subjected to death. Regarding death, there are 4 kinds which cause death of beings. The first kind of death is that all beings have to die when the lifespan of their species ends. This is almost always explained with a simile of oil-lighting. In a small earthern cup, tripod wisp of cotton is placed and then the cup is filled with oil. The cotton wisp is soaked with oil starts from their pods or feet and the oil ascend up the stem and to the top. The top part is then lighted with a fire and there is oil-lit fire. If the wisp is burnt, there will be no more fire. This is compared with aayukkhayena. When there is no more lifespan, beings cannot live any more. Example is we are in the era where the lifespan hardly exceeds beyond 120 years. Most die between 70 years to 90 years. This is aayukkhayena or expiration of lifespan. The second kind of death is kammakkhayena or expiration of kamma. Even though natural lifespan is 100 years in human being todays, some human beings just have 20 years to live as their kamma just allows for 20 years. In that case, they cannot live longer than their kamma admit them to stay. This is compared with oil in the oil-lit fire. When there is no more oil, the fire begins to cease firing or lighting. The third kind of death is ubhayakkhayena or expiration of both lifespan and kamma. This is like someone who no more has kamma to live beyond at some point say about 80 years, where 80 years is the maximal limit for natural living in that being. But when there is still kamma and lifespan is physically supported by sophisticated advanced technology, beings may stay beyond natural lifespan. Ubhayakkhayena is expiration of both lifespan and kamma and cause death. There is a kind of kamma causing death unexpectedly. This unexpectedness is really unbelievable. Example is someone does have enough kamma to live in a current life for 80 years is he is still 10 years in his current life. Kamma is left enough for him to live long. As life span is also 80 years and he is still 10 years, lifespan also allows him to stay longer in his current life. In that case, if he dies suddenly, this death is caused by 'upacchedaka kamma' and maranuppatti is upacchedaka maranuppatti. This is compared with extinguishment of oil-lit fire by strong wind while there are both enough cotton wisp and enough oil to still light on. If there is inevitable death coming, there always is a race. This is the race of kamma. And this race cause arising of different cittas in a given being who is just going to die soon. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44126 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (308) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When dying, there always is a race. That is a race of kamma. This kamma race manifests as different vithi vara and finally one of these kamma wins the race and that kamma becomes manifests as 'marana-asanna-javana vithi'. At any stage, anyone is encouraged to ask anything whether Pali words or contents or explanations on Dhamma Thread. This comprises all old posts on Dhamma Thread, and current Dhamma Threads. ''Tathaa ca marantaanam pana marana kaale yathaa raham abhimukhiibhuutam bhavantare patisandhi janakam kammam vaa, tam kammam karana kaale ruupaadikamupaladdha pubbamupakarana bhuutanca kamma nimittam vaa, anantara muppajjamaana bhave upalabhitabba mupabhogabhuutanca gati nimittam vaa, Kammabalena channam dvaaraanam annatara sami.m paccupatthaati.'' Tato param tameva tatopatthitam aarammanam aarabbha vipaccamaanaka kammaanuruupam parisuddham, upakkilittham vaa upalabhitabbabhavaa nuruupam tatthonatamva citta santaanam abhinhnam pavattati bahullena. Tameva vaa pana janaka bhuutam kammam abhinavakarana vasena dvarapattam hoti. When one of 4 causes of death causes death to a being, there always is a race of kamma. This racing manifests as citta vithi and these vithi finally lead to marana-asanna vithi. In vithi portion, all vithi varas have been explained. This vithi vara is not a new. But it has different name as this arises near death. And this vithi vara is called marana-asanna-javana vithi vara. They may be just kamavacara panca-dvara-vithi vara or kamavacara manodvara-vithi vara or rarely and very very rarely this vithi vara may be appana vithi vara, which is not samapatti but as marana-asanna appana vithi. Marantaanam pana marana kaale; When dying while at the time of near death, Yatha raham; as if Abhimukkhiibhuutam; very clearly arises in front of one. Abhi means 'extreme' 'clearly' 'greatly' and mukha means 'mouth'. Abhimukhii means 'in front of mouth' or 'in front of nose or eyes' or 'right in front of one as a clear picture'. Bhuutam means 'arise in a clear form'. Bhavantare here means 'flowing bhavanga cittas'. Patisandhi janaka kamma means 'rebirth causing kamma'. This means 'when dying bhavanga cittas stop and kamma which has the power of giving rise to patisandhi or rebirth comes out in front of dying being as a clear picture. As there are many kamma in the past, there is a race. When one kamma succeeds, it arises and behave particularly as if it happens right now. 'Tam kamma karana kaale; Tam means 'that' and tam kamma means 'that wining kamma'. Karana means 'commit' and kaale means 'the time'. Tam kamma karana kaale means 'when that kamma was being committed,..' Ruupaadi kammupaladdha is made up of 'rupa + adi + kamma + upa + laddha' Rupa here means 'materials used when that kamma is committed'. Upaladdha means 'bearing'. Ruupadikammupaladdha are 'robe, food, monastry, utensil etc or monks or animals or human beings being killed. Pubba mupakarana bhuutanca kamma nimittam vaa, Pubba means 'before'. Upakarana (pubba upakarana becomes 'pubba mupakarana in Pali grammar') are like 'flowers' 'white umbrellas' 'knives' 'spears' 'guns'. Both beings (sattas) being offered or being killed and things involved in offering or killing are known as 'kamma nimitta'. Anatara here means 'immediate next life, which does not have any antara or spacing or interval'. Upajja means 'arise' and upajjamaana means 'going to arise'. Bhave here means 'next life'. Upalabhi means 'attain' and upabhoga means 'utilization'. Gati means 'to go' and here it means 'next life, which is to go to'. This passage means 'when dying there arise object, which may be attainment of next life or 'utilization of next life properties' and these objects are known as gati-nimitta. So when dying, there arises a kamma. This kamma wins other kamma while in the race and comes out as a clear object. Or When dying, there arises an object, which is kamma-nimitta, which again are beings(satta) offered/ beings(satta) killed or things involved in offering / killing. Or When dying, there arises an object, which is gati-nimitta, which again are beings (sattas) to be seen in next life or materials or properties that are of next life. So when dying one of these 3 things arises. Three things are 1. kamma 2. kamma-nimitta 3. gati-nimitta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44127 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread (309) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When dying one of these 3 things arises. Three things are 1. kamma 2. kamma-nimitta 3. gati-nimitta When kamma arises, it appears very clearly in the mind as if that past kamma is being committed at the time of dying currently. Example is killing a man with great hatred. This killing may be long long time ago. But when the killer is dying, he clear see in his mind that he is very angry and with that anger he kill his enemy. At the time of his dying, he is not killing any being. But this is old kamma and it appears at manodvara and the kamma arises as if anew. If the kamma is good kamma like offering food to monks or The Buddha, the mind at the time of near dying becomes very clean, light, flexible, happy and this kamma arises at manodvara as if anew. This kamma wins in the race and all other kamma are defeated. There are many many kamma even in a life. Samsarawise, there are countless kamma. When kamma that can give rise to rebirth did not exist apparently in the current life, other kamma in the past lives come out anew and it will give rise to patisandhi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44128 From: Matthew Miller Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:50am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > The presently arising phenomena do not include a 'brain'. > The existence of a brain at this moment can only be inferred. > It is not part of the 'world' that appears and can be verified > by direct experience. "Direct experience" is only a small part of the tools that we have for understanding reality, and it is demonstrably unreliable by itself. For example, it fails to account for many areas of reality which we cannot directly perceive (e.g. chemical reactions, cellular physiology, galaxy formation) but which we can still infer from evidence and predict with great accuracy. There are criteria for determining reality which are just as valid as (and ultimately more reliable than) direct experience, such as predictability, reproducibility, usability. I'm not sure if you are claiming that the only verifiable reality is that which we directly experience. If so, I disagree. To claim that areas of reality do not exist simply because we cannot verify them by "direct experience" is like an infant who thinks that his Mommy ceases to exist as soon as she leaves the room. Our ability to recognize that objects have a constant existence beyond our perception was a powerful developmental milestone of early childhood. If one were to pursue this idea of "direct experience" as being the only verifiable world, it would lead to solipsism -- e.g. "Since I cannot directly experience other people's minds, how can I be sure that they are not mindless robots?" or "How can I be sure that I am not the only consciousness in the universe?" > > Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" > > which has no component > > parts? > > Some examples are: seeing consciousness, the object > experienced by seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness, > the object experienced by hearing > consciousness, hardness, attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa). > All of these things are the products of complex physical and chemical processes. Most of these processes occur below the threshold of our awareness, and for good reason -- the consciousness only receives a filtered version of reality with the emphasis on those aspects which are immediately useful. Think of a king sitting in his throne room, receiving edited reports from his ministers about the state of the kingdom. The king would be foolish to suppose that the reality of his kingdom consisted only of the "direct experience" of these reports. But let me turn this around a bit, because I do not believe that the Buddha merely taught "seeing realities as they arise in direct experience." He also taught all kinds of metaphysics. Take karma, for example. Has anyone on this list had a "direct experience" of karma? Matthew 44129 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:56am Subject: Re: Vipassana & Mahasatipatthana Sutta htootintnaing The Buddha continued: 4.'Passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram assasissaamii' to sikkhati, 'passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram passasissaamii' ti sikkhati.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no word for 'relax' or 'let it go'. But the breathing must not be harsh or subtle and anything under control. That is it must be natural. It is 'passambhayam kaaya sankharam'. The Buddha did not say to relax. But just breahte naturally and to be aware the whole action of breathing. Not the whole physical body of head to toe. This is aanaapaana pabba. If scientists could invent a new device that can detect the sound and voice that happened 2700 years ago, then the device would detect these words came out from The Buddha mouth. May you all benefit from The Buddha's genuine words. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44130 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" > wrote: > > Ken, > > > > I > > > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Evan > >======== . _________ Dear Evan, I should have made it clear I was only referring to the point Ken and you were discussing about the Buddha"s prior teachers having jhana, not to the rest of the article. robertk 44131 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:00pm Subject: Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, So does this mean we should ignore Chapter III to IX of Visuddhimagga? - kel > I mentioned that `we also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be developed > by paying special attention to particular objects'. We were reminded that > there is no need for any particular reflections, such as reflections on > the Buddha's virtues or recollections on death, for example. 44132 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, > S: I didn't notice the typo, but wasn't sure that it was correct to > suggest those with two roots could develop satipatthana. It's a bit of a > sensitive one as I know someone else (maybe Kel) has suggested that those > with two roots can attain to the highest insights, but not become > sotapannas. This was contrary to my understanding, so I asked for a > reference which I'm patiently waiting for:-). Kel: As far as I recalled, you got references about Buddhas and Great Disciples. And we had this lengthy discussion about gotrabhu and anuloma nanas. When it came to dvihetuka we both admitted lack of references (with :P). I checked my position with Burmese monks and they agreed but I didn't ask them to give exact references since I thought it was done. We don't have class this saturday cause of early Burmese New Year festival on sunday. People are busy cooking. So I might bug my teacher tonight to see if he can find references since he should be free. - kel 44133 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Dear Rob and Tep, I'm on holidays, away from home, on a tropical island - literally. Therefore, haven't really been keeping up with this thread {too busy doing nothing :-)}. My comment to Rob was something like: makes it sound easy, doesn't it? One would get the idea that it does not matter how one behaves, freedom from clinging is still possible. However, Santati must have developed wisdom in many previous lives, to be able to attain arahatship after hearing these words from the Buddha. We must remember too, that it is the Buddha who spoke these words, the most enlightened being of all times. A timely reminder, Rob, - this life is only a tiny moment in samsara....in future lives. May all beings be happy, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear RobertK (and Azita) - > > > > The drunken Santati's attainment of Arahantship in such a short > period > > of time was a huge step change - an incredible transformation. > Wasn't > > it an unusual case, Rob? I think Santati must have no other faults > > beside the drinking and clinging to sensuality. > > > > How would you explain this incredible story? > > > > > > --------------- > Dear tep, > not so incredible I think. He had developed the right path for > aeons, it was time. > The commentary to this sutta notes that the alcohol in his blood was > burned away as insight grew. > This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive > to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong path it will > only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future lives. > Robertk 44134 From: "budnewsweb" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 10:16am Subject: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) budnewsweb So happy to discover this group. A little people will learn Aphidham . Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. very nicwe to meet you to all. Sory my eng so bad. 44135 From: "Carl" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 c7carl Hi Sarah and Andrew Sarah wrote: .......big snips)...... > S: When it's something `we must deliberately do', it's not understanding > in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo on this > topic? It was very good...(snip)....(Sarah) Carl writes: Hi Sarah, I think you liked Ken H's response very much. But perhaps you should reconsider what Htoo said (or didn't say). Htoo remains apart from the notion that formal meditation is a waste of time (my words). I believe that Htoo is still pondering your viewpoint on Vipassana. The discussion was not concluded and the two views of Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also wonder how these two views can be resolved. My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 hour 7 days a week effort. I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have aroused doubts about vipassana. How can one notion be right and the other wrong? Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" Is this the definition of prompted? "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by oneself or someone else." Thanks, Carl 44136 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) buddhistmeditat... Hi Thaiman - I am glad that you are happy to join us. It is not just you who have bad English; my writing also needs polishing. Don't worry, keep writing and these smart people here will adapt. Please be welcome! Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > So happy to discover this group. > > A little people will learn Aphidham . > > Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. > > very nicwe to meet you to all. > > Sory my eng so bad. 44137 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear RobertK and Azita - Rob said it so neatly : "This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong path it will only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future lives". To me making efforts in the wrong path(s) has not been a problem. The difficulty is with consistently making right effort in the right path: it is not easy because there are other Path factors that we have to condition at the same time, such that the five indriyas are in good balance. Azita, did you immediately start to pack and fly back home, after receiving the "timely reminder" from Rob? Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Rob and Tep, > > I'm on holidays, away from home, on a tropical island - > literally. Therefore, haven't really been keeping up with this > thread {too busy doing nothing :-)}. > > My comment to Rob was something like: > makes it sound easy, doesn't it? One would get the idea that it > does not matter how one behaves, freedom from clinging is still > possible. > However, Santati must have developed wisdom in many previous > lives, to be able to attain arahatship after hearing these words > from the Buddha. We must remember too, that it is the Buddha who > spoke these words, the most enlightened being of all times. > > A timely reminder, Rob, - this life is only a tiny moment in > samsara....in future lives. > > May all beings be happy, > Azita. > > 44138 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) christine_forsy... "budnewsweb" Sawatdee Kaa, dii chan chue Christine kaa. khun chue arai? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > So happy to discover this group. > > A little people will learn Aphidham . > > Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. > > very nicwe to meet you to all. > > Sory my eng so bad. my ben rai :-) Welcome to dhamma study group. Thank you for writing :-) metta, Chris 44139 From: "cosmique1000" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 9:17pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma cosmique1000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: >To claim that areas of reality do not exist simply because we cannot verify them by > "direct experience" is like an infant who thinks that his Mommy> ceases to exist as soon as she leaves the room. Our ability to > recognize that objects have a constant existence beyond our > perception was a powerful developmental milestone of early childhood. > But let me turn this around a bit, because I do not believe that the > Buddha merely taught "seeing realities as they arise in direct > experience." He also taught all kinds of metaphysics. Take karma, > for example. Hello Matthew and all, I hope you don't mind my butting in for a while. I think "direct experience" means "seeing how things are" rather than just "seeing whether things are or not, or whether they arise or not". For an "unenlightened child" his mommy exists when she is perceived by him and does not exist when she is not, but for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is perceived or not, she is anicca (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at all!). Adopting such an approach helps one to avoid a great deal of pointless metaphysical speculation about existence of this or that such as god, soul, aliens etc. It does not matter at all whether they all exist or not. What matters is that they all have the above three characteristics. Metta, Cosmique 44140 From: "budnewsweb" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:42pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) budnewsweb My name is "Bundit" krub . you can call me "Bandit" .I'm very happy to join this group because so hard to meet people who know aphidhamma. Many people take effect of dhamma that "Ariya People" can do. Bud thay resist because of effect. What is the because of effect? Pariyut Patibut and must be on step. Can't skip it . In thailand Have alittle bit people to know this. Even somepeople who know Aphidhamma But not all over and don't to be faithful with themself .They exaggerated themself with wrong dhamma. nice to meet you and nice to join this group so much. (If you can speak thai tell me please . My eng very bad) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > "budnewsweb" Sawatdee Kaa, > > dii chan chue Christine kaa. khun chue arai? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" > wrote: > > > > > > So happy to discover this group. > > > > A little people will learn Aphidham . > > > > Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. > > > > very nicwe to meet you to all. > > > > Sory my eng so bad. > > my ben rai :-) > > Welcome to dhamma study group. Thank you for writing :-) > > metta, > Chris 44141 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Andrew > > > Sarah wrote: .......big snips)...... > > S: When it's something `we must deliberately do', > it's not > understanding > > in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo > on this > > topic? It was very good...(snip)....(Sarah) > > Carl writes: > Hi Sarah, > I think you liked Ken H's response very much. But perhaps you should > reconsider what Htoo said (or didn't say). Htoo remains apart from > the notion that formal meditation is a waste of time (my words). I > believe that Htoo is still pondering your viewpoint on Vipassana. The > discussion was not concluded and the two views of > Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also > wonder how these two views can be resolved. > > My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 > hour 7 days a week effort. > > I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have > aroused doubts about vipassana. How can one notion be right and the > other wrong? Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in > contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists > here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? Hi Carl (and Sarah), I really like the points you raise and the manner in which you raise them. It cannot be denied that Htoo is EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the Abhidhamma, almost nauseatingly so ;-)), and yet he doesn't agree with the K. Sujin faction here about crucial issues related to practice. Sarah can cheer on anyone who chooses to tassel with him, but the intelligent members (like you) will see right through that type of politicking. However, one minor point, just to let you know I am paying attention, you write, "My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 hour 7 days a week effort." The Buddha taught that vipassana can only be practiced during waking hours, not while asleep, so it couldn't be 24/7. However, I agree with you that it should occupy as much of the waking hours as possible (with reinforcement through yogic meditation- sitting, walking, standing, or lying). Metta, James 44142 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges jonoabb Hi Andrew Thanks for the detailed reply which, as with all your posts, is full of meaty stuff. I will respond on some of the points raised. Andrew Levin wrote: >... With the exception >of what I've been discussing about the nature of mundane right view, >and understanding dhammas as they are present to understand kamma and >vipaka (if this type of understanding is indeed necessary for right >view, which I glean from his talk that I might), there aren't any >questions I have pertaining to Abhidhamma that I could ask, nothing >I've been trying to figure out or anything, frankly because I think >there are things we can do, as practitioners, to cultivate the >factors of the path, actively working as a person, be we made up of >namas or rupas or not, to attain stages of enlightenment. > Well I was actually thinking of questions relating to 'practice', and in particular to what is the 'practice' at the present moment when there is no opportunity for the kind of 'purposeful action' you mention below. These 'ordinary' moments are the major part of the day for us. Do you see the teachings as addressing this issue? I'm not sure what BB's answer would be, but I don't see him as someone who takes the view ' the more formal practice the better'. >This is a >point you may see in my discussions with Sarah (the thread "new view >on satipatthana"). This has been brought up by people here other >than myself, including someone raising the point that the Buddha told >some of his order "That's how you should train yourselves." For me, >this is not a new spec of information that might change the way I >look at things, it is something extra that shows what I believe >*lots* of scripture references- purposeful action. This includes the >gradual training, the sutta on mindfulness of the body, the (Maha-) >Satipatthana sutta, the Potthapada sutta, and more I could cite. The >Buddha gives instructions to them all on how to practise. It's clear >as day. > I think if you read the suttas themselves carefully and with the help of the commentaries you'll find that they are not so much instructions to undertake purposeful action, but more like descriptions of what cause brings what result. The problem is that most people rely on brief quotes they come across in books, which of course sound convincing enough in the context, but are not the full story. Not so long ago I had a discussion with Howard on passages that mention 'how you should train yourselves'. None of the examples raised by Howard were specific actions to be done, as far as I could tell, but you may have some different passages in mind. >And he declared very many of his order (if not all) and very >man of his lay followers to have reached enlightenment during his >ministry. That's why I don't see eye to eye with people here, where >it seems one is encouraged to practise only a few nama or rupa on >occasion, and to acheive enlightenment in scores, hundreds, or eons >of lives and years away. > > There may be some misunderstanding of what has been said on this subject. As I understand the teachings, *any* presently appearing dhamma is potentially the object of awareness/iinsight, and that awareness/insight may arise at any time. The scope for 'practise' is not limited to a chosen time, situation and/or object, and thus is wider (not narrower) than suggested by those who advocate purposeful action of some kind. >With all the enlightened ones in this >dispensation, who's to say we don't have the same chance? We may not >all have sufficient meritorious deeds in our past to acheive in this >lifetime, but we all still have a reasonable chance of acheiving it >within this dispensation if we practise well in this and future >lifetimes. > > I think this is something we can't know and don't need to spend time speculating about. >Well the book gave pretty specific instructions and referred to >specific passages in other words about how to practise right >mindfulness. I quote from B.B.'s "Noble Eightfold Path": > > > >>>>The fourth step, "calming the bodily function," involves a >>>> >>>> >progressive quieting down of the breath and its associated bodily >functions until they become extremely fine and subtle. Beyond these >four basic steps lie more advanced practices which direct mindfulness >of breathing towards deep concentration and insight. <<< > >This is in accord with my understanding and the content a few other >books I have read (and many I have not) where mindfulness of >breathing is the chief 'producer' or 'bringer' or insight. > >He says it right there. > > This is a crucial point. I would not read the quoted passage from BB as saying that 'mindfulness of breathing is the chief 'producer' or 'bringer' or insight'. However, if this is your view, could you give a sutta reference that supports it? What do you see as being the significance of breath in particular, as opposed to other samatha subjects? The rest of your post deals in detail with mindfulness of breathing. If you don't mind, I'll snip here and respond to that separately. Jon 44143 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from >suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from >experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. > > I think the advice in the Kalama Sutta applies whether the statement in question comes from a bhikkhu or from a lay person (and I think extra caution is called for where the speaker holds himself out as having attainments). Everything we hear should be tested against the original teachings. BTW, I do not think the texts are to be used for theorising, but for gaining a theoretical understanding (if you see the difference), as a basis for a more direct understanding. Jon 44144 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff I notice that Htoo is going to respond on this, and I'm sure he will do so in detail. I'd just like to comment briefly on the implicit assumption (as I see it) in your question that in the various bhumis only cittas of that particular bhumi can arise. As I understand it, this is not the case; bhumis are named as they are because most of the cittas that arise in the bhumi are of that same variety. Hope this clarifies somewhat. Jon sunnaloka wrote: >Hi everyone, > >According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and >rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? > >I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that >jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical >precident for this understanding would be??? > >As always any help is greatly appreciated, > >Geoff > > 44145 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >The Idea of 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one' is a Mahayana concept. And, from a Therevadin prospective, it is based on something call the Radiant Wheel of Dependant Origination. > >I am sorry to say I can't remember the suttra references, but hopefully I will be vesting a Tai (Forest monk tradition) center in a few weeks, so I intend on getting the book on DO that talks about the Radiant Wheel. > > I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. >Samatha/jhana is not a natural state, you work at creating and preserving it. If you have to work at keeping the state, you are clinging to it (Mahayanist like to call this transformed clinging). The analogy of the monkey mind is more natural. > >I am defining clinging very broadly, "to resist separation from, or the changing of." > > I agree that samatha gained can be lost unless the right conditions are there. I would think we have all gained and lost jhana in the past. Jon 44146 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) christine_forsy... Hello Bandit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > My name is "Bundit" krub . you can call me "Bandit" .I'm very happy > to join this group because so hard to meet people who know aphidhamma. > > Many people take effect of dhamma that "Ariya People" can do. > > Bud thay resist because of effect. > > What is the because of effect? > > Pariyut Patibut > > and must be on step. > > Can't skip it . > > In thailand Have alittle bit people to know this. > > Even somepeople who know Aphidhamma But not all over and don't to be > faithful with themself .They exaggerated themself with wrong dhamma. > > nice to meet you and nice to join this group so much. > > (If you can speak thai tell me please . My eng very bad) mai dai ... nit noi ... di-chun yak rian pa sa thai. Some people on this List speak Thai. They are: Jon, Mom Betty, Sukin, Azita, RobK, Matt R, Num, Kom and others. I hope they will write and introduce themselves. Please see: http://www.dhammahome.com/index.php?lang=0 metta, Chris 44147 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew Matthew Miller wrote: >"Direct experience" is only a small part of the tools that we have >for understanding reality, and it is demonstrably unreliable by >itself. For example, it fails to account for many areas of reality >which we cannot directly perceive (e.g. chemical reactions, cellular >physiology, galaxy formation) but which we can still infer from >evidence and predict with great accuracy. > > I suspect we are working from different definitions of 'reality'. What's yours? >There are criteria for determining reality which are just as valid as >(and ultimately more reliable than) direct experience, such as >predictability, reproducibility, usability. > > I am not knocking scientific research, but I think it cannot measure the dhammas of which the Buddha spoke. >I'm not sure if you are claiming that the only verifiable reality is >that which we directly experience. > No, I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that only a presently appearing dhamma can be directly experienced as it truly is. >>>Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" >>>which has no component >>>parts? >>> >>> >>Some examples are: seeing consciousness, the object >>experienced by seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness, >>the object experienced by hearing >>consciousness, hardness, attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa). >> >> > >All of these things are the products of complex physical and chemical >processes. Most of these processes occur below the threshold of our >awareness, and for good reason -- the consciousness only receives a >filtered version of reality with the emphasis on those aspects which >are immediately useful. Think of a king sitting in his throne room, >receiving edited reports from his ministers about the state of the >kingdom. The king would be foolish to suppose that the reality of >his kingdom consisted only of the "direct experience" of these >reports. > > Good analogy, but not applicable to the moment of pure sense-door experience that precedes the thinking processes which constitute the filtering you refer to. >But let me turn this around a bit, because I do not believe that the >Buddha merely taught "seeing realities as they arise in direct >experience." He also taught all kinds of metaphysics. Take karma, >for example. > >Has anyone on this list had a "direct experience" of karma? > > As one of the 24 conditioning factors that pertain between dhammas, kamma is capable of being directly experienced by insight (but I think we can safely say it would require a level of developed insight that is beyond anyone on this list ;-)) Jon 44148 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 2:25am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 161- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (k) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya accompanies every kusala citta and it supports the citta and accompanying cetasikas so that they can carry out their work in a wholesome way. When there is loving kindness, it is strengthened and supported by kusala viriya. If there were no viriya accompanying the kusala citta, no kusala could be performed. Also when the citta is akusala citta, viriya accompanies the citta and the cetasikas so that they can carry out their work in the unwholesome way. Viriya accompanies every akusala citta. When there is anger, dosa, it is strengthened and supported by viriya. Viriya which accompanies akusala citta is wrong effort and viriya which accompanies kusala citta is right effort. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44149 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:02am Subject: Re: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi KenH (& Evan), > > ... > S: I didn't notice the typo, but wasn't sure that it was correct to > suggest those with two roots could develop satipatthana. KH: Thanks Sarah, I'll spot the typos if you'll continue to spot the factual errors (brainos?). It is extremely important that someone points out inconsistencies with the texts. Otherwise DSG would follow other groups into a maze of directionless waffling. S: > In any case, it's not an important point and easily leads to speculations > about things we can have no idea about:-/. KH: I'm sure that's right, and entirely consistent with the texts. Ken H 44150 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop (& James), ..... Dear Sarah S: If by 'RIGHT VIEWS' you are referring to samma ditthi or panna, then the Buddha had right views most the time and it is this same samma ditthi or panna that needs to be cultivated as I read the texts. Joop: A view only exists in terms of concepts, of words. A right view is a view and I try to avoid to have one, that's the way I want to use the texts. So rests the wisdom (panna), I accept that as something I want to have; but WISDOM IS WITHOUT WORDS, WITHOUT CONCEPTS, and can only be approached, never be touched in any text. S: When we read about the raft simile, it is the attachment to such views that needs to be discarded. Attachment is the 2nd Noble Truth - the cause of Suffering. (see 'Raft' in U.P. if you have time). Joop: I know that's about clinging, about attachment. So what do you want to state? I only found one message in UP about 'Raft', your #24878 and that has hardly to do with our topic: "Can we leave all the Teachings - as a raft - behind us?" This has (for me) to do with a topic I raised some weeks ago about 'Skilful means' (43903). My hypothesis was that the word 'skilful means' in hardly used in Theravada as in Mahayana but that also according Theravada the Buddha used this pedagogical technique. A 'raft' is (to me) an example of a 'skilful means': who is more wise can leave a big part of the literal interpretation of the Tipitaka as a raft, as something that was useful so should not be dealed with disdain, and can be left behind on the further buddhistic path. But again: we can only discuss fruitful about this topic if you want to use a frame of reference broader than that of one Theravada- tradition. S: This is not how I understand the teachings or the effect of insight-meditation (vipassana bhavana). By clearly understanding dhammas, the objects of satipatthana, then samma ditthi or sampajanna (clear comprehension) grows and becomes firmer and firmer so that stages of insight and eventually stages of enlightenment can be attained with samma ditthi. Joop: This makes our 'discussion' really funny: you say that I should read in the teachings what I experience in my (insight-)meditation. I use the word 'discussion' but in fact it's hardly a communication because we write out of different frames of reference, as I said in my neglected proposal to the moderators (but in this case it's not a big problems, your narrowmindedness only helps me formulating what's important for me and what is my path). Metta Joop 44151 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Geoff > > I notice that Htoo is going to respond on this, and I'm sure he will do > so in detail. I'd just like to comment briefly on the implicit > assumption (as I see it) in your question that in the various bhumis > only cittas of that particular bhumi can arise. As I understand it, > this is not the case; bhumis are named as they are because most of the > cittas that arise in the bhumi are of that same variety. > > Hope this clarifies somewhat. > > Jon > > sunnaloka wrote: > > >Hi everyone, > > > >According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and > >rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? > > > >I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that > >jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical > >precident for this understanding would be??? > > > >As always any help is greatly appreciated, > > > >Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Geoff and All, Thanks Jon for reminder. As Jon said, it is not the case that kamavacara cittas are just confined to kama bhumi. Kamavacara cittas do arise in brahmas. When they came down to The Buddha and saw The Buddha, they did have cakkhuvinnana cittas and kama javana of seeing The Buddha. There are 4 planes of citta. This is not bhumi. 4 planes of citta are 1. kamavacara citta 2. rupavacara citta 3. arupavacara citta 4. lokuttara citta As lokuttara cittas are beyond loka (kama loka, rupa loka, arupa loka), the object of lokuttara citta is not of kama object, rupa object, and arupa object. The only object for lokuttara citta is nibbana. Arupavacara cittas take the object of arupa jhanas. So kama object can never be the object of arupa jhana cittas and arupavacara cittas. Likewise, rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is pannatti. It is patibhaga nimitta pannatta in case where jhana takes patibhaga nimitta. Where jhana does not take patibhaga nimitta pannatta, it will take satta pannatta as in case of brahmavihara kammatthana. Kamavacara cittas are mostly taking kama object. They can take pannatti but not in the form as in case of rupa jhana cittas. Kamavacara cittas can take the essence of nibbana or the meaning of nibbana but not the true nibbana. This only happen at the magga kaala when all 8 Path factors are fully (FULLY) developed. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44152 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (310) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, To repeat, at the time of near death, there always is a race. In that race, the participants are kamma. Kamma are the past actions which had been committed in the current life or may be even in other previous lives. How do they arise? What are they? Are they realities? I think, once someone has asked on this topic. The current posts are not on kamma but on dying process and how beings die and are reborn in the next life without any interruption of moment of time. Whatever kamma succeeds, there are 3 possibilities for cittas near death. The possibilities here is for the object. There are 3 possible objects. They are 1. kamma 2. kamma nimitta 3. gati nimitta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44153 From: "budnewsweb" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:53am Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! ...Thank You Chris. budnewsweb > > mai dai ... nit noi ... di-chun yak rian pa sa thai. > > Some people on this List speak Thai. They are: Jon, Mom Betty, > Sukin, Azita, RobK, Matt R, Num, Kom and others. I hope they will > write and introduce themselves. > > Please see: > http://www.dhammahome.com/index.php?lang=0 > > metta, > Chris thank you to all. and your matta ,too. 44154 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocterabb... Hi Carl, I like all your well-considered reflections and sincere interest. I don’t have much time now after a busy work day, but wish to just get back to your post. --- Carl wrote: <...> >. The > discussion was not concluded and the two views of > Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also > wonder how these two views can be resolved. > > My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 > hour 7 days a week effort. > > I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have > aroused doubts about vipassana. .... S: I think that many of us use ‘vipassana’ in different ways. When I use this term, I follow the Pali texts which define it as ‘insight’ or understanding or wisdom. Before we looked at many of the synonyms for these various terms. (See ‘vipassana’ in U.P.). I agree with you (& James) that anytime except for when we're in deep sleep is a suitable time to develop awareness and understanding. I think that if you ask Htoo for definitions of vipassana, there won’t be any disagreement. When it comes to what is meant by meditation and what support there is for commonly held ideas – well that’s just what he and Ken H were discussing, so I’ll leave it there for now. As I said, I think it’s a good discussion – meaning I appreciate the reflections, comments and good-will on both sides. ... >How can one notion be right and the > other wrong? Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in > contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists > here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? .... As Htoo knows, I have the highest regard for most of what he writes and there’s no doubt about his great knowledge and familiarity of Abhidhamma texts.I learn a lot from many of his posts and our discussions which are always cordial. Can aspects of the texts be interpreted in different ways? He’ll be the first to agree that this is so and btw, I don’t think anything I express is ‘the standard DSG position’ as represented by anything other than a handful of noisy people, but I understand what you mean:-) I think we need to ask what the Abhidhamma is. As I see it, it’s no different from the Dhamma which is no different from the realities/phenomena/dhammas arising and falling away with their various characteristics at this very moment. Seeing is Abhidhamma, visible object is Abhidhamma, feeling, perception, hardness, softness, all namas and rupas are Abhidhamma. Any direct understanding of them when they are apparent (i.e just at the present moment ever) is vipassana bhavana (mental development/meditation). You may find this article on ‘Abhidhamma and Vipassana’ helpful if you haven’t read it already. There should not be any distinction between the theory and practice as I see it: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm > Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I > am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" > > Is this the definition of prompted? > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > oneself or someone else." ... S: I think it’s a bit of a red herring here. These terms refer to strong and weak states of consciousness. For example, when we give, the generosity may be strong and unprompted when the opportunity arises or rather weak, needing some kind of encouragement, urging or further reflecting, for example. (Again, check these in U.P. or ask me more if you like.) I appreciate your input. There are bound to be confusions and doubts and these are temporary mental states, namas, too. I hope this helps and am very happy to continue this discussion about the meaning of vipassana bhavana (development/meditation) if you have any further comments/queeries. Metta, Sarah ======= 44155 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 7:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, Towards the end of your message, you asked: --------------- > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" --------------- I was referring to paramattha dhammas (absolute realities), which I have been talking about throughout our discussion. If you study the Abhidhamma, you will find that it defines all of the things that really exist. At any point in time, including now, there are, really, only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. Returning to the beginning of your message: ------------------------------ C: > Faith is empty (neither wholesome or unwholesome), what you have faith-in can be considered wholesome or unwholesome. ----------------------------- Does what you have said there help us to understand the dhammas that are arising now? When you say "faith," are you referring to a dhamma? If so, which of the dhammas defined in the Abhidhamma is it? ------------------------------------------------ C: > So, is your faith/confidence in the no-self doctrine "blind" or based on what you have experienced as true? ---------------------------------------------- As I have said several times, the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" (or, in Pali, "saddha") is never blind. So, if you want to talk about a moment of consciousness when there is 'blindness to the truth' then there is no point in referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" - because it never arises at such moments. According to the Abhidhamma, 'blindness to knowledge' is the characteristic of the dhamma known as "moha" (ignorance). ------------------------------------------------- C: > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say. .............. KH: > > I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says: There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? ......................................... C: > If at the moment of conception, with the three (I, my-self, mine), you are place/born in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are right. However, if it does not place "you" in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are wrong. Remember the real issues are "desire" and "attachment." Therefore, if you understand how to transform/transmute these two so that you can avoid the cycles of suffering, even when the three (I, my-self, mine) are born, you have the Right Understanding. ------------------------------------------------- Is that your interpretation of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (or of any other sutta)? If so, then I would like to discuss it further. Otherwise, I think we should stick to discussing dhammas. ----------------- KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. > As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. .............................................. C: > This is also true (90%) for any type of study, science and music included, not just Dharama. I say 90% because if you look at that "insight" as just clear understanding alone then ... Now if that clear understanding is rooted in morality then, you are 100% correct. ------------------- Again, I would prefer we discuss the Dhamma as found in the ancient texts. So, when we refer to "insight" we should be referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "insight" (in Pali, "panna" "samma- ditthi" "vipassana"). Insight is always (100% of the time) rooted in morality. In other words, panna always co-arises with alobha (greedlessness) and adosa (harmlessness). --------------------------------- C: When you say "... doubt (vicikiccha) ... is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing." I am force to say, you are being one dimensional, extreme. You have lost sight of the Middle Path. --------------------------------- No, I am sure the Middle Path is to know the dhammas that are arising now. Vicikiccha is a dhamma that arises in certain kinds of unwholesome consciousness. It doubts the Dhamma (the 4NT's etc.). As Sarah has explained, a poor Pali-to-English translation of the Kalama Sutta has given the impression that vicikiccha can be a good thing (can arise in wholesome consciousness). ------------------------------------------------------ C: > What the [Kalama Sutta] does tell us. If a teaching of any type, including a Buddha's, contradicts what you know to true, value what you know to be true more. ------------------------------------------------------- No, I am sure the Kalama Sutta tells us nothing of the sort. (See the Bhikkhu Bodhi article Christine referred us to.) According to the Abhidhamma, the only time we really "know something to be true" is in a moment of consciousness in which panna has arisen. The Buddha's teaching can never contradict such moments of panna because the Buddha's teaching *is* panna. Ken H 44156 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > I suspect we are working from different definitions of 'reality'. > What's yours? I'm not so sure if it's wise to work from a pre-conceived definition of 'reality'. So I'll just offer Philip K. Dick's open-ended definition: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick (American writer, 1928-1982) Matthew Miller 44157 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 8:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon and Htoo Naing, Jon, my understanding is exactly what you've stated: > I'd just like to comment briefly on the implicit > assumption (as I see it) in your question that in the various bhumis > only cittas of that particular bhumi can arise. As I understand it, > this is not the case; bhumis are named as they are because most of the > cittas that arise in the bhumi are of that same variety. And as I understand this, there is therefore no direct one to one correlation regarding the relationship of avacara and bhumi. So why would jhanacitta, which is rupavacara, not be able to take as its object a paramattha dhamma (which I assume are 'on' the kamavacara bhumi since vipassana occurs on/in kamavacara bhumi)? My question (to either of you, or anyone else) is: what canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? Htoo, says: > rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other > object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is > pannatti. Htoo, is this stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or is this a post canonical commentarial development? Metta, Geoff 44158 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 9:13am Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, Carl, Htoo and James As far as I know Htoo is on solid ground with what most Burmese saydaws teach. > You may find this article on `Abhidhamma and Vipassana' helpful if you > haven't read it already. There should not be any distinction between the > theory and practice as I see it: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm Since you mentioned Sitagu sayadaw http://www.sitagu.org/meditation.html - excerpt While there many varieties of meditation practice that fall under both of these two main categories, the varieties that are practiced during group meditation all involve a seated posture. Generally, the meditators at Sitagu Vihara practice meditation on the in & out breathing (anapanasati ). This traditional form of meditation can be used both as a type of concentration meditation and insight meditation. Traditionally, this form of meditation involves sitting in a cross-legged position on the floor with an erect posture and focusing the minds attention on the sensation of the breath as it enters and exits the tip of the nose. Those who are not comfortable sitting on the floor may also practice this type of meditation while seated upright in a chair. http://www.sitagu.org/dhamma/upo_retreat.html I spent three nights there, passing the days in sitting and walking mediation, reading about the Dhamma, and reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha. > > Is this the definition of prompted? > > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > > oneself or someone else." > ... > S: I think it's a bit of a red herring here. These terms refer to strong > and weak states of consciousness. Nina posted before of why jhana and lokuttara cittas can't be said to be either prompted or unprompted. Basically because it's unclear which one and could be both or either. - kel 44159 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 10:06am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Jon Charles: The Idea of 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one' is a Mahayana concept. And, from a Therevadin prospective, it is based on something call the Radiant Wheel of Dependant Origination. I am sorry to say I can't remember the suttra references, but hopefully I will be vesting a Tai (Forest monk tradition) center in a few weeks, so I intend on getting the book on DO that talks about the Radiant Wheel. ------------------------------------------------ Jon Replied: I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. ........................................................ Yes, especially when there is insight; however I am not sure what you mean by "in a figurative sense." ************************* Charles: Samatha/jhana is not a natural state, you work at creating and preserving it. If you have to work at keeping the state, you are clinging to it (Mahayanist like to call this transformed clinging). The analogy of the monkey mind is more natural. I am defining clinging very broadly, "to resist separation from, or the changing of." -------------------------------------------- Jon: I agree that samatha gained can be lost unless the right conditions are there. I would think we have all gained and lost jhana in the past. .................................. Yes 44160 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 3:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff wrote: Hi Jon and Htoo Naing, Jon, my understanding is exactly what you've stated: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So Geoff and Jon agreed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff: ..snip.. ..And as I understand this, there is therefore no direct one to one correlation regarding the relationship of avacara and bhumi. So why would jhanacitta, which is rupavacara, not be able to take as its object a paramattha dhamma (which I assume are 'on' the kamavacara bhumi since vipassana occurs on/in kamavacara bhumi)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 5 Rupavacara rupakusala cittas ( rupa jhanas of non-arahats ) 5 Rupavacara rupakiriya cittas ( rupa jhanas of arahats ) 5 Rupavacara rupavipaka cittas ( bhavanga cittas of rupa brahmas ) There are altogether 15 rupavacara cittas. 10 cittas are rupa jhanas. But they are 5 jhanas. 5 cittas are bhavanga cittas of rupa brahma. They are like shade of rupakusala cittas. So their object are exactly the same as rupakusala cittas. All rupa jhanas take panatti as their object. While rupa jhana cittas are taking panatti as their object, they are taking paramattha as their object. Pannatti does not arise. Panatti does not fall away. Panatti does not have anicca lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have dukkha lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have anatta lakkhanaa. Panatta seems stable, permanent, eternal and that is why jhanas are unshakable and like mountains. Rupavacara rupa jhana cittas can never take paramattha dhamma as their object. As soon as paramattha dhamma is taken as object, the cittas that take paramatha dhamma are no more 'rupavacara rupa jhana cittas'. They will be kaamaavacara mahakusala citta or kaamaavacara mahakiriya cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff: My question (to either of you, or anyone else) is: what canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not a historian. I do not believe that anyone added new to what are taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff wrote: > Htoo, says: > > > rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other > > object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is > > pannatti. Htoo, is this stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or is this a post canonical commentarial development? Metta, Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 60. Aaruppesu dutiya catutthaani mahaggataarammanaani. 61. Sesaani mahaggatacittaani sabbaanipi panattaarammanaani. Abhidhammatthasangaha says like that. Abhidhammatthasangaha was a small text. It is known as 'little-finger atthakathaa'. No one added anything what The Buddha taught. Atthakathaa and tiikaas are what ancient great bhikkhus wrote to explain Pali in teachings. There were many many many teachings. Atthakathaa and tiikaa do help to understand the teachings. The above text was written by Venerable Anuruddhaa of Celon, who dwelled in Tumuulasoma Monastry, which again was once occupied by Venerable Mahinda. 60. In arupa jhana - Aaruppesu ( aaruppa + esu ) at 2nd, at 4th - dutiya catutthaani ( dutiya/2nd + catuttha/4th + ni/ at) higher objects - mahaggataarammanaani ( mahaggata + arammana + ni) In arupa jhanas, 2nd and 4th arupa jhanas have 'mahaggata object' as their arammana. Mahaggata objects are mahaggata cittas. 2nd arupa jhana takes 'mahagatta citta called 1st arupa jhana citta' and 4th arupa jhana takes 'mahaggata citta called 3rd arupa jhana citta'. So 2nd and 4th arupa jhana cittas take 'mahagatta objects'. Mahaggata cittas are not panatta. 61. All other things left - Sesaani ( sesa/things left + ni/at) In Jhana cittas -Mahaggatacittaani ( mahaggata/jhana +citta+ni) all these jhanas - sabbaanipi ( sabba/these jhanas left + nipi) have pannatta object - panattaarammanaani. This is not later invention. All jhana cittas, that is all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas with the exception of 2nd arupa and 4th arupa jhana, all other jhanas or all other jhana cittas take the object of pannatti or all other jhana citta have pannatti as their object. There are 30 kammatthana objects, where those 30 kammatthana meditating citta take as their object and can develop into full jhana that is up to 'appanaa jhana' or 'rupavacara rupa jhanas' or 'arupavacara arupa jhana'. These 30 kammatthanas are 1. 10 kasina objects All 10 are initially visual object. When the mind becomes clearer, there arise a mental image. That image is no more visual object but nimitta pannatta. Again that nimitta pannatta called uggaha nimitta is replaced by another image or object called patibhaga nimitta or counter image of 'mental image'. This counter image is totally different from 'mental image' and also completely different from 'visual image'. These are nimitta pannatta and not paramattha dhamma or paramattha arammana. So all kasina-derived jhanas do take pannatti as their object and they cannot take any other object as their object. They cannot take paramattha object. 2. 10 asubha kamatthana objects This is quite evident that there is no being as paramattha dhamma. All beings are pannatti. Beings in the form of death are also pannatti and not paramattha dhamma. So all 10 asubha kammatthana kusala cittas take pannatti as their objects and no other object can be the object of asubha kammatthana. 'Death people' is pannatti. Not paramattha dhamma. 3. 4 brahmavihara/ brahmacariya kammatthana objects Again, these objects are people or beings. There is no being as paramattha but beings are all pannatti. So all 4 brahmacariya kammatthana objects are pannatti and they cannot be paramattha dhamma. 4. 1 kayagataasat kamatthana object hair, teeth, skin etc are all pannatti and never paramattha. All 32 parts of the body are pannatti. 5. 1 aanaapanassati kammatthana object The breath is pannatti and not paramattha. Breathing meditation can well be jhana object. When it serves as jhana object, it is just pannatti. First there is an object and when uggaha nimitta arise, it is pannatti and when patibhaga nimitta arise, then it is also pannatti. If there is constant vanishing, jhana cannot be developed. If there is anicca, jhana cannot be developed. Pannatti serves as if it is permanent and this makes jhanas unshakable and make mountains. When in true jhana, even thunder storm cannot shake 'the jhana'. 6. 4 aruppa kammatthana object 1st and 3rd arupa jhana take pannatti. 1st take the idea of 'boundless space' and 3rd arupa jhana take pannatti of 'nothingness'. Only these 30 kammatthana can give rise to full jhana or 'appanaa jhana'. And 28 takes pannatti as their object while 2nd and 4th arupa jhana take mahaggata objects. This is the extract of Tipitaka. No one adds any new idea. There are people who do not respect 'Abhidhamma' and they even said 'Abhidhamma' was not taught by The Buddha or Abhidhamma was not preached by The Buddha and they said Abhidhamma is later invention or later adding etc etc. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44161 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 htootintnaing Dear Kel, Sarah, Ken H, Carl, James and All, Thanks Kel for your information. 'Formal sitting' :-)) :-)) :-)) Whatever one is doing, a clear ground is necessary. On the ground, I stand. As soon as the ground sinks, then I sink. For insight, there needs a ground. Whether that ground is jhana or not, it is the necessary ground to have cleared all the hindrances. In daily life, there are many thought processes and many thought moments. I do not assume that 'formal sitting' is fortification. Here I just include 'formal sitting'. :-)) Hmmm aversive word? I did not find any Pali as 'formal sitting'. But I believe that as soon as one thinks 'he is fortifying the practice', it may not be right. For jhana practice, stationary postures do need to be maintained. Otherwise, there will be distraction from jhana's object. That is why sitting is necessary for jhana. Standing may do the job. Lying may do the job. But walking is not the practice of jhana cittas. If one has jhana cittas and if they are walking then it is no more the output of kamavacara cittas. Walking in that jhanalabhii is no more ordinary walking or no more the output of kamavacara cittas. In walking, there are many many steps of movement. That is why stationary postures are preferred for foundation for jhana. Even in stationary postures, the mind is not atable as long as not in jhana. But vipassana is not looking for jhana. But a good concentration is needed. This is the ground what we should look for. Siila, samaadhi, pannaa. These are necessary for the Path. Regarding 'sasankharika' and 'asankharika', there is no sankharika in jhanas and lokuttara cittas. Because they are appanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Carl, Htoo and James > > As far as I know Htoo is on solid ground with what most Burmese > saydaws teach. > > > You may find this article on `Abhidhamma and Vipassana' helpful if > you > > haven't read it already. There should not be any distinction > between the > > theory and practice as I see it: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm > Since you mentioned Sitagu sayadaw > > http://www.sitagu.org/meditation.html - excerpt > While there many varieties of meditation practice that fall under > both of these two main categories, the varieties that are practiced > during group meditation all involve a seated posture. Generally, the > meditators at Sitagu Vihara practice meditation on the in & out > breathing (anapanasati ). This traditional form of meditation can be > used both as a type of concentration meditation and insight > meditation. Traditionally, this form of meditation involves sitting > in a cross-legged position on the floor with an erect posture and > focusing the minds attention on the sensation of the breath as it > enters and exits the tip of the nose. Those who are not comfortable > sitting on the floor may also practice this type of meditation while > seated upright in a chair. > > http://www.sitagu.org/dhamma/upo_retreat.html > I spent three nights there, passing the days in sitting and walking > mediation, reading about the Dhamma, and reflecting on the qualities > of the Buddha. > > > > Is this the definition of prompted? > > > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > > > oneself or someone else." > > ... > > S: I think it's a bit of a red herring here. These terms refer to > strong > > and weak states of consciousness. > > Nina posted before of why jhana and lokuttara cittas can't be > said to be either prompted or unprompted. Basically because it's > unclear which one and could be both or either. > > - kel 44162 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (311) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When dying or when near death, one of the following 3 things come to the mind of dying beings. They are 1. kamma 2. kamma nimitta 3. gati nimitta It is 'at near the death' or 'just before the death' that matters linking to another life as a rebirth consciousness. The whole life will definitely end at the vanishing of cuti citta or dying consciousness. The whole life is started with patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness. In between are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness provided there is no consciousness directed to current objects. Just before the death is 'the last series of consciousness', which is immediately followed by cuti citta or dying consciousness or life- ending consciousness. Just before that 'last series of consciousness' are some series of consciousness. They are thought processes, which are procession of consciousness or vithi cittas. The cittas in these series take the object from 3 possible objects. 1. object of old kamma 2. object that is kamma-nimitta 3. object that is gati-nimitta Here kamma is not an object. But when kamma is the main thing near dying, then there will be a race or competition of kamma. These kamma are past actions. If these arise, they will take the same objects when these kamma committed the actions. a) Kamma arising near death When dying, or when near death, there arise series of thought. These thoughts may be good thoughts like 'offering things to people' 'keeping precepts' 'charity actions' etc. Or may be bad thoughts like 'angry mind killing people or animals' 'greedy mind raping a woman' 'lying so that others are greatly affected' etc etc. These are past actions and not new actions doing at the time of near- death. One of these old kamma wins the race and it comes out as the leading kamma while other kamma are defeated by this kamma. When this kamma wins, being concerned experiences a mind as if he or she is doing the same thing when he or she did that action such as killing or offering. At that event, the object is the same object when kamma was committed. b)The object,Kamma-nimitta,serving as object of 'final thought process When the winner,kamma did its action, there always was 'directed being or beings who was or were affected by that kamma. It is called upaladdha. They are people who received charity etc or they are animals or people who were killed. When the winner kamma did its action, there always was 'associated things'. They are called upakarana. They are robe, food, monastry, medicine or knives, guns, spears etc. When these are seen anew or heard anew or smelled anew or tasted anew or touched anew or thought anew, this means that the winner kamma is the kamma that did along with these beings or these associated things. c) gati-nimitta When dying, or near death, there always is objects. These objects may well be some scene in the future life, or some food that future life will have or some edifice that future life will dwell. The dying beings see or hear or smell or taste or touch or think these future things at the present. At the end of the last series, there arises cuti citta or dying consciousness and the current life ends compeletely after vanishing of that cuti citta. But as that last series contains kamma potentials,even though cuti citta ends, there are still kamma and this kamma causes arising of new rebirth consciousness. This new rebirth consciousness is the resultant consciousness of cittas that were committing actions in the last series of previous life and this very first consciousness, which is patisandhi citta or linking consciousness or rebirth consciousness reveals that the kamma- candle light is already lit. This process of changing life continues as long as there is tanha or craving, which is the chief cause of all suffering or dukkha. This tanha or craving is only eradicated by arahatta magga nana and as soon as it is eradicated, there is no more rebirth. Then the process of changing life totally cease. But there will be vipaka or resultant effects of remaining kamma and these are all cease to exist as soon as cuti-citta of arahat vanishes. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44163 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (312) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhammatthasangaha text; vithimuttasangaha 91. paccaasanna maranassa tassa viithi cittaavasaane, bhavangayakkhaye vaa javana vasena paccuppanna bhava pariyosaanabhuutam cuti cittam uppajjitvaa nirujjhati. Tasami.m niruddhaa vasaane tassaanantara meva tathaagahitam aarammanam aarabbha savatthukam, avatthuka meva vaa yathaaraham avijjaanusaya parikkhittena tahnaanusaya mulakena sankhaarena janiyamaanam sampayuttehi pariggshamaanam sahajaataanamadhitthaanabhaavena pubbangamabhuutam bhavantara patisandhaana vasena patisandhi sankhaatam maanasam uppajjamaana meva patitthaati bhavantare. Paccaasanna maranassa_ near death or very close to death, tassa viithi cittaa vasaane_ those procession-consciousness ends or bhavangayakkhaye vaa _ life-continuing-consciousness ends or javana vasena _ mental impulsive-consciousness ends or paccuppanna bhava _current life pariyosaana_ends, bhuutam/clearly cuti cittam_dying consciousness uppajjitva_having arisen nirujjhati_fallen away When dying, in any being, at the end of the final thought process that is at the end of retention-consciousness or tadaarammana citta or at the end of mental impulsive consciousness or javana citta or at the end of the final thought process after arising and ending of life-continuing consciousness or bhavanga citta, the current life ends with arising and passing away of cuti citta or dying-consciousness or life-ending consciousness or life-ceasing consciousness. To summarise in the simplest way; A life starts with patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness and ends with cuti citta or life-ending consciousness or life-ceasing consciousness or dying consciousness. In between these 2 cittas of the very first and the very last citta or consciousness, there are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness provided there is no current object attracting the mind. As soon as current objects intervene the flow of life-continuing consciousness or bhavanga cittas, the flow is disturbed and come to cease and the alternative kind of consciousness called vithi citta or citta in procession starts to arise. These cittas in procession or vithi cittas arise in series in the manner of serialness. There are infinite series of such procession of consciousness or vithi cittas. The first series is always 'lobha javana vithi vara' or 'attachment impulsion process'. The last series is 'the final thought process' in a life and it is known as 'marana-asanna-javana vithi vara'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44164 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 5:03pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (313) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhammatthasangaha text; vithimuttasangaha 91. paccaasanna maranassa tassa viithi cittaavasaane, bhavangakkhaye vaa cavana vasena paccuppanna bhava pariyosaanabhuutam cuti cittam uppajjitvaa nirujjhati. Tasami.m niruddhaa vasaane tassa anantara meva tathaagahitam aarammanam aarabbha savatthukam, avatthuka meva vaa yathaaraham avijja anusaya parikkhittena tahna anusaya mulakena sankhaarena janiya maanam sampayuttehi pariggshamaanam sahajaataa namadhitthaana bhaavena pubbangama bhuutam bhavantara patisandhaana vasena patisandhi sankhaatam maanasam uppajja maana meva patitthaati bhavantare. When dying, at the end of the final thought process that is at the end of retention-consciousness or at the end of impulsion consciousness or after the final thought process life-continuing consciousness arises and at the end of that life-continuing consciousness there arise cavana or cuti citta and at the end of cuti citta, the current life ends and cease to exist. Tasami.m niruddhaa vasaane_after that ceasing consciousness, tassa anantara meva tathaagahitam_that consciousness without interruption taking the same object along with hadaya vatthu or wihtout hadaya vatthu arises as patisandhi citta, which has avijja anusaya and tahna anusaya along with other anusaya serving as the very first consciousness in that next life and that citta, patisandhi citta is immediately followed by bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44165 From: "Carl" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 5:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 c7carl Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >Hi Carl, > .... > S: I think that many of us use `vipassana' in different ways. When I use > this term, I follow the Pali texts which define it as `insight' or > understanding or wisdom. C: Yes, as you say, 'insight' or insight meditation, or vipassana meditation. ==================================================================== > S: Before we looked at many of the synonyms for > these various terms. (See `vipassana' in U.P.). I agree with you (& James) > that anytime except for when we're in deep sleep is a suitable time to > develop awareness and understanding. C: Yes, many synonyms. Spinning of word meanings in a desired direction or to maintain a particular point of view. For instance "vipsanna practice" What does practice mean? ==================================================================== >S: I think that if you ask Htoo for definitions of vipassana, there won't be > any disagreement. C: I think you are spinning now! Is it unclear that we are discussing "insight meditation"? This is from the discussion of KenH and Htoo on the subject of vipassana that you refered to previously as being "very good". ----------- From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:04 am Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) Htoo wrote to KenH, in part.. (msg #44041) Htoo:.....(snip)....And I agree that 'formal meditation' may well be ritual. But I am still not well digested regarding this point of 'formal meditation' even though I accept your explanation. Sarah could not help me clear in that matter like you. Amara of DSList accused me of 'such thing'. She also could not help people clearly. When I wrote 60 messages which were just conventionalising of mahasatipatthana sutta, some did not agree and there were many complaints. The worst is one who is not the current member of DSG. I will leave it alone....Htoo...(snip) ...............................end quote..................... ====================================================================== >S: When it comes to what is meant by meditation and what support there is for > commonly held ideas – well that's just what he and Ken H were discussing, > so I'll leave it there for now. C: Why? Isn't that exactly what we are discussing? Isn't that the crux of the rift concerning vipassanna (insight)? Do you think this rift is inconsequential? =================================================================== >S: As Htoo knows, I have the highest regard for most of what he writes and > there's no doubt about his great knowledge and familiarity of Abhidhamma > texts.I learn a lot from many of his posts and our discussions which are > always cordial. Can aspects of the texts be interpreted in different > ways? He'll be the first to agree that this is so and btw, I don't think > anything I express is `the standard DSG position' as represented by > anything other than a handful of noisy people, but I understand what you > mean:-) C: Thanks for understanding :-) . You say "As Htoo knows, I have the highest regard for most of what he writes" Hmmmmm, I wonder what you mean here. :-) ================================================================= > S: I think we need to ask what the Abhidhamma is. As I see it, it's no > different from the Dhamma which is no different from the > realities/phenomena/dhammas arising and falling away with their various > characteristics at this very moment. Seeing is Abhidhamma, visible object > is Abhidhamma, feeling, perception, hardness, softness, all namas and > rupas are Abhidhamma. Any direct understanding of them when they are > apparent (i.e just at the present moment ever) is vipassana bhavana > (mental development/meditation). C: Yes, I agree, even when you say "(i.e just at the present moment ever)". :-) How could it be otherwise?. Do you feel that so called "sitting vipassana meditation, or perhaps so called "formal vipassana meditation" is not at the present moment? =================================================================== >S: You may find this article on `Abhidhamma and Vipassana' helpful if you > haven't read it already. There should not be any distinction between the > theory and practice as I see it: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm C: Thank you Sarah, and again, this is my understanding also. I see no difference in potential between the non-sitters "vipassana practise" and that of the sitters "vipassana practise". All the same. No need to spin words. I wonder if you would say the word "practise" has two different meanings here? ==================================================================== Thank you, Carl p.s. Appoligies to Htoo if I have oversteped in so freely quoting. If so, I would consider it an honor to be reprimanded by Htoo. 44166 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Cosmique: > I hope you don't mind my butting in for a while. Butt away! Welcome onboard! > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). > ... What matters is that they all have the above > three characteristics. Buddhism is an art of happiness. It is concerned with reality only insofar as it helps people eliminate suffering and find true happiness. To this end, it uses various techniques, such as emphasizing the anicca aspects of the world. However, seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Of course, if we are trying to understand the world "as it really is", without the agenda of making people happy, we can see that the universe is indifferent to human interests. The universe itself is neither dukkha nor non-dukkha. Nor is it pure anicca; there are relative degrees of permanence in nature. What would pure impermanence be like? A kaleidoscopic, evanescent chaos? However, there are certain characteristics of reality which, while ultimately impermanent, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. The sun stays pretty much the same throughout our brief lives, as do the laws of physics, the DNA in our cells, as well as most of the important factors that shape our lives. Sure, we can choose to focus on the changing aspects of existence, if that makes us cling & suffer less, but we do so by ignoring the relatively unchanging aspects of the world. > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. Matthew 44167 From: "mnease" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma & the Way to the Goblin City mlnease Hi Htoo and All, Very well written I think, Htoo, especially ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 3:20 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma "Pannatti does not arise. Panatti does not fall away. Panatti does not have anicca lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have dukkha lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have anatta lakkhanaa. Panatta seems stable, permanent, eternal and that is why jhanas are unshakable and like mountains." Yes, 'impterturbable'--akkhobbha or nibbikaara. This reminded me of something in the Dispeller, from the Classification of the Structure of Conditions, (ii)[Ignorance as a Condition of Formations], (paragraph 662): "...Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc., he initiates the formation of the imperturbable which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city." mike 44168 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 10:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Htoo, I respect the sincerity of your faith and your knowledge of the exegetical interpretation of the Tipitaka, but when I read the Sutta Pitaka I don't find much of what is presented in the Visuddhimagga for example. The Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that authority for any teaching lies in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka, so I'm trying to trace the notions of the commentators back to their source, and cannot find any source in the Sutta Pitaka, and so now I'm wondering if these notions are supported in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. So when you say: > No one adds any new idea. Well, I'm not so sure. And so my question (to anyone) still is: what canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? Respectfully yours, Geoff 44169 From: "oselok" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 11:18pm Subject: Is memory a mano-dhamma? oselok Hello, Let me ask a simple question: is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or an object of corresponding sense doors? Mettena cittena, Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/ 44170 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 162- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Kusala viriya can be energy for dåna, for síla, for samatha or for vipassanå. It depends on conditions which type of kusala arises at a particular moment. If one wants, for example, to subdue defilements through the development of calm and one knows how to develop calm, there is energy and perseverance with the development of calm. If one’s goal is knowing realities as they are there are conditions for energy for vipassanå. This kind of energy or effort arises together with the citta which is mindful of a nåma or rúpa appearing now, at this moment. Right effort arises because of its own conditions; there is no self who can exert himself. When we have a notion of self who has to make an effort to be aware, there is wrong effort instead of right effort. Right effort is a conditioned dhamma, saòkhåra dhamma, which arises because of its own conditions. It does not last, it falls away immediately with the citta it accompanies and then wrong effort may arise. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 06-04-2005 20:22 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: > I do know that Nina has cited some text or another which says > mindfulness of breathing is intended for some special order of monks > only, and I do not have access to these texts (I only have two of the > Nikayas as far as the canon is concerned, then the Vissudhimagga and > some other modern and modernish books, no sub-commentaries or > anything), N: I did not say intended for some special order of monks. In the Visuddhimagga it is stated that this subject is most difficult and intended for maha-purisas, and Buddha's sons. At the same time we read about laypeople in the Buddha's time who practised it. But the main thing is that one should have precise understanding of this subject. A: Abhidhamma to me means knowing the exact realities, > at the same level, or an even deeper level, than the contemplations > on the elements, contemplation on consciousness, and so on, rather > than a method or vehicle of practise on its own. N: Agreed. But the elements and cittas etc. are Abhidhamma. They are realities. Nina. 44172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever nilovg Dear Christine, Just back I am very sorry to hear about Rusty. My father lost many dogs during his long life, but we still talk about these good companions. We feel sympathy with you and your children. I like you quoting the five recollections, those mean a lot to me. It is appropritae what Sarah says. See below. op 06-04-2005 11:39 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of > seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no > awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible > object. > This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, > likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. N: But sometimes we are not ready for it, I know. It is hard: life is only a moment. Easier said than done! But I hope what you just heard in Bgk can be of comfort in this difficult time. I just heard on India tape:< Life goes on with people and things and we think they are real. But it is not like that at all! There should be detachment from the beginning.> That detachment from the beginning is so hard since we accumulated attachment. But at the same time Kh Sujin repeated: patience is the highest ascetism. We should develop the Path with patience. Nina. 44173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas nilovg Dear Htoo, op 05-04-2005 10:43 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Example child, if he is a born sotapanna will not have any ditthi or > wrong view. Here there need not any thinking. N: So, this example is about the latent tendency of wrong view of the child. I understand that you want to make it simple. Nina. 44174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 07-04-2005 21:21 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and > rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? N: We have to differentiate plane of citta and plane of existence when using the word bhumi. Yes of course, jhana can be cultivated in the human plane. We raed all this in the suttas. But the result of jhana does not occur in this plane. That is rebirth in a rupa brahma plane of existence. G: : I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that > jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical > precident for this understanding would be??? N:Think of the sutta texts: aloof from sense impressions.. The aim is to be away from sense objects and the attachment involved. Nina. 44175 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sasankharika, to Carl. nilovg Hi Carl, op 09-04-2005 02:07 schreef Carl op c7carl@...: > > Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I > am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" > > Is this the definition of prompted? > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > oneself or someone else." N: Yes, but more is explained by the Tiika Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 83. I quote: This explanation indicates the difference in quality between kusala citta that arises spontaneously, without any hesitation, and kusala citta that is more hesitant, that needs prompting. There are many different degrees of kusala and they are dependent on different conditions. Confidence in the benefit of kusala has many degrees. Through satipatthana confidence in kusala develops.> Nina. 44176 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Carl I hope you don't mind me butting in here. Carl wrote: >Hi Sarah, >I think you liked Ken H's response very much. But perhaps you should >reconsider what Htoo said (or didn't say). Htoo remains apart from >the notion that formal meditation is a waste of time (my words). I >believe that Htoo is still pondering your viewpoint on Vipassana. The >discussion was not concluded and the two views of >Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also >wonder how these two views can be resolved. > > I think Htoo has since clarified his view further. However, it's not really a question of whose view is what, but of the correct understanding of what the Buddha said on the subject. On this there is no simple answer because, unfortunately we start from a position of much ignorance and wrong view. But one thing for sure is that there will always be diverging views, strongly held, on the matter, and we cannot expect a resolution of these views (and this was so even in the time of the Buddha himself). >My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 >hour 7 days a week effort. > >I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have >aroused doubts about vipassana. How can one notion be right and the >other wrong? > > Yes, it is indeed confusing. However, if it's of any comfort, you are far from being alone in your confusion (and discouragement, perhaps), and there are also many others who have been through the same and have survived ;-)). I think the best thing in this situation is to keep focussed on one's study and enquiry and reflection, building on the understanding that is already there but not expecting any quick results or breakthroughs. Besides, must one view be 'right' and the other 'wrong'? >Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in >contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists >here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? > > I would say, and I'm sure Htoo would agree, that knowledge of the Tipitaka is one thing, and a proper understanding of the teachings another. 'Book' knowledge is not the same as (correct) intellectual understanding (pariyatti). >Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I >am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" > >Is this the definition of prompted? >"sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by >oneself or someone else." > > I think you are suggesting that the development of insight needs prompting, and I would agree with that in general. Understanding of the level of satipatthana is weak and needs all the help it can get. What kind of prompting? On my reading of the suttas, the prompting encouraged by the Buddha was studying the words of the Buddha, being in contact with others who have good understanding of the teachings and listening to/reading what they have to say about the development of insight and other kusala, considering and reflecting on what one has heard/read about the teachings, and of course applying what one has come to properly understand. Recommendations to this effect are found throughout the suttas. It is true that the Buddha also gave other recommendations on occasion, but we need to consider the particular context, for example, whether the 'roots of trees' lifestyle is being recommended for all or for just a selected audience. There are no quick answers to these questions, but perseverance will be rewarded I believe ;-)) Hope this helps. Jon 44177 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matthew, There are many interpretations of the Buddha's Dhamma that divert from the ancient Theravadin texts. But your interpretation is so diverse as to be unrecognisable. I hope this is not a rude question, but I would like to know if you are aware of the variance. Do you, for example, realise that the texts say all dhammas, with the exception of Nibbana, are anicca and dukkha, and all dhammas, including Nibbana, are anatta? Have you acquired your interpretation on your own, or does it belong to an established School of Buddhism? I apologise if these are tactless questions. Ken H M: > Buddhism is an art of happiness. It is concerned with reality only insofar as it helps people eliminate suffering and find true happiness. To this end, it uses various techniques, such as emphasizing the anicca aspects of the world. However, seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Of course, if we are trying to understand the world "as it really is", without the agenda of making people happy, we can see that the universe is indifferent to human interests. The universe itself is neither dukkha nor non-dukkha. Nor is it pure anicca; there are relative degrees of permanence in nature. What would pure impermanence be like? A kaleidoscopic, evanescent chaos? However, there are certain characteristics of reality which, while ultimately impermanent, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. The sun stays pretty much the same throughout our brief lives, as do the laws of physics, the DNA in our cells, as well as most of the important factors that shape our lives. Sure, we can choose to focus on the changing aspects of existence, if that makes us cling & suffer less, but we do so by ignoring the relatively unchanging aspects of the world. Cosmique: > > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). M: > An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. Matthew 44178 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew Matthew Miller wrote: >I'm not so sure if it's wise to work from a pre-conceived definition >of 'reality'. So I'll just offer Philip K. Dick's open-ended >definition: > >"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go >away." > -- Philip K. Dick (American writer, 1928-1982) > > This is not a bad definition at all. Reality is what is there no matter whether you think about it or no matter what you call it. Do not the phenomena identified by the Buddha as 'dhammas' fit that description: seeing consciousness, visible object, hearing consciousness, audible object, attachment, aversion, pleasant and unpleasant feeling, hardness, etc. As I see it, 'reality' must be something that is universal, both as to individual beings and as to past, present and future. Otherwise, what would be the point of trying to understand it? Jon 44179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff sunnaloka wrote: >My question (to either of you, or anyone else) is: what canonical >Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says >jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not >definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't >stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma >Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post >canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? > >Htoo, says: > > > >>rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other >>object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is >>pannatti. >> >> > >Htoo, is this stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or is this a post >canonical commentarial development? > > I see Nina has mentioned a relevant passage from the texts. But in any event, as Nina also says, the aim of jhana is to be without sense-door experiences, as these are seen as a cause for the arising of akusala citta. So it seems odd to be asserting (if anyone is) that a sense-door object could be the object of jhana citta. Perhaps you could explain where you are coming from on this one. What paramattha dhammas do you have in mind? Jon 44180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Jon Replied: I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. >........................................................ > >Yes, especially when there is insight; however I am not sure what you mean by "in a figurative sense." > > I mean that a moment of mundane insight is not in itself a transforming moment, but it is by virtue of the accumulated effect of such moments that a transformation eventually occurs. Jon 44181 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Htoo There are many good observations in your post that I agree with, but I would like to pick up one point that I question. htootintnaing wrote: >For jhana practice, stationary postures do need to be maintained. >Otherwise, there will be distraction from jhana's object. That is why >sitting is necessary for jhana. Standing may do the job. Lying may do >the job. But walking is not the practice of jhana cittas. > >If one has jhana cittas and if they are walking then it is no more >the output of kamavacara cittas. Walking in that jhanalabhii is no >more ordinary walking or no more the output of kamavacara cittas. > >In walking, there are many many steps of movement. > >That is why stationary postures are preferred for foundation for >jhana. > >Even in stationary postures, the mind is not atable as long as not in >jhana. > > As I understand it, those monks whose lives were devoted to the development of jhana did not cease that development whenever they walked or moved. So whether sitting or going about their necessary daily activities, the development of samatha continued. You will be familiar with the story in the Vism concerning the elder Mahatissa who was in jhana while walking to the village on his alms round. Jon 44182 From: cosmique Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma cosmique1000 Hi Matthew, Matthew Miller wrote: ...seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Buddhism is meaningless without the “psychological technique”. In order to get the complete picture, anicca has to be complemented by dukkha and, especially, anatta. These three aspects make up "seeing things as ther really are". If one of the tree is missing, the picture is going to be incomplete and might degenerate into religious belief. But if one's mind is shifted to impersonality of whatever is perceived – one's body, for example - one is not going to grieve when it ceases. That’s the simple secret of the art of happiness. It is for the pragmatic reason that Buddha avoided answering the 10 unanswered questions regarding metaphysical issues. If a person gets rid of his “I”, he is not interested anymore to know whom he was, or whether he was in a previous life; whom he will be, or whether he will be in a life to come. By the same token other realities and concepts are treated. What about aliens, god, matter or anti-matter? Firstly, they all are impermanent. And even if they have a certain degree of permanence, as you put it, still they are not self-contained or self-sufficient because they arose due to certain causes and conditions. With this view in mind, one’s search for permanent existence is over. Secondly, clinging to them brings about dukkha. I agree, they are not dukkha or sukha in and of themselves. Having this in mind, one’s lust for happy life out there and disgust for unhappy life here are over. Thirdly, they are impersonal, not-mine, not-me, not-I. Such a view puts an end to time-consuming speculations about “real selves”, “true natures”, “spirits”, etc. If a man is not interested in soccer, he does not care about who won the final game. I think Buddhas’s pragmatic approach exhausts all options of “spiritual searches” and brings minds back to earth, yet charged with totally different vision. It is like in the case of a Zen master who said that before his spiritual search, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. When he started his Zen practice mountains and rivers ceased to be mountains and rivers. After he realized the truth, mountains and rivers became mountains and rivers again. What else needs to be added? An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. The “enlightened child” is just a parable based on your illustration. Do not take it literally. By “the child & his mommy” I meant any perceiving subject and any perceived object respectively. Needless to say, to teach children anatta is a sort of sacrilege and profanation. It is of the same use as teaching them quantum physics or feeding them with roasted beef instead of milk for it will cause nothing but confusion in their minds. For each thing there is its season. On the other hand, I think that some aspects of the Dhamma such as death, impermanence, suffering need to be taught to kids lest kids grow too naive not to know that “this world is not their home, they are just passing thru…” Metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 44183 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings4 - Calm and Concentration sarahprocterabb... Dear Htoo, Kel & All, In Musings 3, I mentioned that ‘the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences between the development of concentration and calm”. Concentration or samadhi is ekaggata cetasika (a mental factor) which arises at every moment unknowingly. For example at moments of seeing consciousness there is momentary concentration, but do we have any idea? From Nyantiloka’s dictionary” Samádhi --'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' (sam+á+dhá), is the fixing of the mind on a single object. "One-pointedness of mind (cittass' ekaggatá), Brother Visakha, this is called concentration" (M. 44). Concentration - though often very weak - is one of the 7 mental concomitants inseparably associated with all consciousness.” *** Calm is passaddhi cetasika and only arises with wholesome moments of consciousness. When there is more kusala (wholesome consciousness) in a day, then calm grows. Calm is conditioned by concentration (ekaggata) and concentration is conditioned and supported by calm (passaddhi). They have different characteristics, but initially when kusala grows, I understand that it is calm which is more likely to be apparent. When panna (understanding) grows, it eventually becomes a bojjhanga (enlightenment factor)along with samadhi (concentration). Adhi citta (higher concentration) is the development of right concentration(i.e momentary ekaggata or samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) which are perfected only at the stage of anagami when attachment to sensuous objects is eradicated. When concentration seems to be apparent, such as when we’re working on a difficult task, it is the akusala (unwholesome) concentration which is known at such times and it is this kind of concentration which we cling to. The strength of concentration at any moment depends on the accompanying cetasikas, so when there hasn’t been a lot of understanding developed of any kind, strong concentration is always unwholesome. I think this is very important, because otherwise it’s easy to take such concentration for being the development of skilful samadhi or samatha. When the citta (consciousness) is kusala (wholesome), other qualities of other wholesome mental states such as metta, dana or calm appear instead. So it’s wrong to conclude that concentration is so important that we must see it, because when we think like this we’re bound to be clinging to akusala concentration. It’s not easy at all for kusala concentration to be the object of understanding and we therefore cannot measure calm or understanding by the concentration which shows up. In fact in the development of satipatthana, I understand it is only at stages of insight that concentration and wisdom become ‘yoked’ (yuganaddha). Then the strength of both grow together and the characteristic of the former is known to be arising with panna (wisdom). In the development of samatha (calm), if upacara or appana samadhi* are attained, the level of concentration and calm supports panna and vice versa. Clearly the concentration is of a different degree and quality and lasts for more moments. However, without developing any understanding of calm and other wholesome qualities when they arise naturally at moments of samatha (such as at moments of metta or dana or wise reflections as discussed last time), we’re bound to be misled by other qualities including attachment and unwholesome concentration. Then there won’t be any development of any kind of bhavana (mental development/meditation). I also found it useful to discuss in more detail about the two meanings or kinds of jhana (to be contd) Metta, Sarah * “In concentration one distinguishes 3 grades of intensity: • (1) 'Preparatory concentration' (parikamma-samádhi) existing at the beginning of the mental exercise. • (2) 'Neighbourhood concentration' (upacára-samádhi), i.e. concentration 'approaching' but not yet attaining the 1st absorption (jhána), which in certain mental exercises is marked by the appearance of the so-called 'counter-image' (patibhága-nimitta). (3) 'Attainment concentration' (appaná-samádhi), i.e. that concentration which is present during the absorptions.” ======== 44184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Hi Joop May I butt in here? >Dear Sarah > >S: If by 'RIGHT VIEWS' you are referring to samma ditthi or panna, >then the Buddha had right views most the time and it is this same >samma ditthi or panna that needs to be cultivated as I read the texts. > >Joop: A view only exists in terms of concepts, of words. A right view >is a view and I try to avoid to have one, that's the way I want to >use the texts. >So rests the wisdom (panna), I accept that as something I want to >have; but WISDOM IS WITHOUT WORDS, WITHOUT CONCEPTS, and can only be >approached, never be touched in any text. > > I see a misunderstanding in use of terminology occurring here. Yes, panna is a mental factor that occurs without words or concepts. However, one of the terms used in the texts for panna is samma-ditthi, which translates as 'Right View'. Now 'right view' here does not refer to 'a view' in the ordinary sense of the word; it means just the same as panna, namely, a mental factor that arises with consciousness. Nonetheless, to my understanding, the aim should be the development of panna, rather than the absence of concepts/views. When there is panna, there is no wrong conceptualising. In any event, is there anything wrong with concepts per se? What would be the point of having no concepts (if that were indeed possible) if there was no developed insight? >I only found one message in UP about 'Raft', your #24878 and that has >hardly to do with our topic: >"Can we leave all the Teachings - as a raft - behind us?" >This has (for me) to do with a topic I raised some weeks ago >about 'Skilful means' (43903). My hypothesis was that the >word 'skilful means' in hardly used in Theravada as in Mahayana but >that also according Theravada the Buddha used this pedagogical >technique. A 'raft' is (to me) an example of a 'skilful means': who >is more wise can leave a big part of the literal interpretation of >the Tipitaka as a raft, as something that was useful so should not be >dealed with disdain, and can be left behind on the further buddhistic >path. > > The simile of the raft is just that, a simile. The purpose of the simile seems to be to point out that even the teachings are not to be clung to. To elevate the raft to the status of a 'skilful means' seems to be stretching the sutta somewhat, don't you think? >But again: we can only discuss fruitful about this topic if you want >to use a frame of reference broader than that of one Theravada- >tradition. > > Well, as long as you can keep your points related to the Theravada tradition, we can discuss them. Perhaps you can use some skilful means of discussion to do this ;-)) >Joop: This makes our 'discussion' really funny: you say that I should >read in the teachings what I experience in my (insight-)meditation. >I use the word 'discussion' but in fact it's hardly a communication >because we write out of different frames of reference, as I said in >my neglected proposal to the moderators (but in this case it's not a >big problems, your narrowmindedness only helps me formulating what's >important for me and what is my path). > > Well, every list has it's declared scope, for obvious reasons. As long as you can relate your comments to our group description, we can discuss them. Jon 44185 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Hello Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > Just back I am very sorry to hear about Rusty. My father lost many dogs > during his long life, but we still talk about these good companions. We feel > sympathy with you and your children. > I like you quoting the five recollections, those mean a lot to me. ------------------------------------ Christine: Thank you for your post Nina. I'll let SarahF and Luke know of your sympathy. Yes, there is nothing like the experience of the death of a dear companion to bring home the truth of the five recollections and the dukkha inherent in the five khandas. :-) --------------------------------- > It is appropritae what Sarah says. See below. > op 06-04-2005 11:39 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of > > seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no > > awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible > > object. > > This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, > > likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. > N: But sometimes we are not ready for it, I know. It is hard: life is only a > moment. Easier said than done! But I hope what you just heard in Bgk can be > of comfort in this difficult time. > I just heard on India tape:< Life goes on with people and things and we > think they are real. But it is not like that at all! There should be > detachment from the beginning.> > That detachment from the beginning is so hard since we accumulated > attachment. But at the same time Kh Sujin repeated: patience is the highest > ascetism. We should develop the Path with patience. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Yes, I liked Sarah's reminders. Life as a moment has basically been forgotten most of the time this last week. But we're getting back to normal now, with the help of some emails from good dhamma friends. :-) I'm glad you reminded me of Kh Sujin's saying about patience. I just posted it on another list as well. :-) I like to recall another saying of hers: "Begin Again!". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44186 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sarahprocterabb... Hi Geoff (& Htoo), --- sunnaloka wrote: > > > Hi Htoo, > > I respect the sincerity of your faith and your knowledge of the > exegetical interpretation of the Tipitaka, but when I read the Sutta > Pitaka I don't find much of what is presented in the Visuddhimagga > for example. The Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that > authority for any teaching lies in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya > Pitaka, .... S: I agree with all Htoo's comments here. The comy to the sutta makes it clear that this refers to the Dhamma-Vinaya, the Tipitaka: "And during my life, I have taught these: the four foundations of mindfulenss (satipatthana) etc.....In various ways I have analysed these doctrinal matters and have taught the basket of Suttanta. All of that basket of Suttanta will perform the role of Teacher for you when I attain parinibbana. "And during my life, I have taught these: the five aggregates, twelve spheres (ayatanas) etc.......I have analysed these things in detail and taught the Abhidhamma-pitaka, which is adorned by the Mahapatthana......All of that, the basket of the Abhidhamma, will perform the role of the Teacher for you when I attain parinibbana. "Thus all of this has been told and discussed for forty-five years .....; three baskets, five Nikayas, nine branches (angas), eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma remain. I alone attain parinibbana, and now I alone advise and instruct. After I have attained parinibbana, these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma will advise and instruct you." (PTS transl) .... >so I'm trying to trace the notions of the commentators back > to their source, and cannot find any source in the Sutta Pitaka, and > so now I'm wondering if these notions are supported in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. So when you say: > > > No one adds any new idea. > > Well, I'm not so sure. And so my question (to anyone) still is: what > canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there > that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This > notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I > know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or > is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? ... S: In the Abhidhamma Pitaka, all paramattha dhammas are clearly categorised. Any thing which is not included is by implication not a paramattha dhamma. When we refer to person (as object of the brahma viharas), kasina, breath etc, what paramattha dhammas can they be? From BB's CMA on the same section Htoo quoted in Narada's transl: 111,18: "Among the immaterial (consciousness), the second and fourth take sublime objects. All the remaining sublime consciousness take concepts as objects. The supramundane consciousness take Nibbana as object." BB's Guide based on the commentary: "'Among the immaterial, etc': the second immaterial citta takes the first immaterial citta as object, while the fourth immaterial citta takes the third as object. Thus these two cittas take sublime entities as object. " 'All the remaining sublime consciousnesses': the fine-material jhana cittas take as object a conceptual entity such as the counterpart sign in the case of the kasinas, or living beings in the case of the illimitables. The first immaterial citta takes as object the concept of infinite space, the third takes as object the concept of nothingness or non-existence." Metta, Sarah ==== 44187 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > So does this mean we should ignore Chapter III to IX of > Visuddhimagga? ... S: No, but any part of the teachings will be read according to our limited understanding. As we see with ch X1V, without the assistance of the Tika, considerable Abhidhamma knowledge and good friends, it's not easy to read and comprehend. Even when we have all this assistance, our accumulated ignorance, attachment and wrong views take us off-track all the time, especially when we forget that the entire teachings are about the development of satipatthana, the development of understanding dhammas as elements, devoid of self, at this very moment. Even the first few lines in chapter 111 need a lot of discussion, understanding and reflection, I think. How about you? Metta, Sarah S:> > I mentioned that `we also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be > developed > > by paying special attention to particular objects'. We were reminded > that > > there is no need for any particular reflections, such as reflections > on > > the Buddha's virtues or recollections on death, for example. 44188 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Joop > > May I butt in here? ... Hallo Jon, and Sarah Jon: Now 'right view' here does not refer to 'a view' in the ordinary sense of the word; it means just the same as panna, namely, a mental factor that arises with consciousness. Joop: I have an explanation like yours in Nyatiloka's Dictionary this morning. I think my mental flexibility is big enough to accept the idea that a 'right view' is not a view. Jon: Nonetheless, to my understanding, the aim should be the development of panna, rather than the absence of concepts/views. When there is panna, there is no wrong conceptualising. In any event, is there anything wrong with concepts per se? What would be the point of having no concepts (if that were indeed possible) if there was no developed insight? Joop: It's a matter of aims and means to that aim, to that end of developping panna. I experience that trying to have no opinions, to realize constantly that I'm conceptualizing, is a mean to that end (if this method is according the 'texts' or not). Jon: The simile of the raft is just that, a simile. The purpose of the simile seems to be to point out that even the teachings are not to be cung to. To elevate the raft to the status of a 'skilful means' seems to be stretching the sutta somewhat, don't you think? Joop: No, I don't think it's overstretching. Jon: Well, as long as you can keep your points related to the Theravada tradition, we can discuss them. Perhaps you can use some skilful means of discussion to do this ;-)) … every list has it's declared scope, for obvious reasons. As long as you can relate your comments to our group description, we can discuss them. Joop: If you talk about the third of my proposed 'fields of discussion (see under), that it's OK. When you say only the first and second field, than my reaction is: that's not enough because on this moment comparing Theravada and Mahayana is important to me. When I state something and the reaction is: that's not so according the (in fact: one) Theravada tradition, that's not inspiring enough. Metta Joop Part of my proposal about the DSG-structure: - More than one field of discussion. For example:  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - Buddhaghosa - Sujin  Technical questions about that frame of reference  Discussions about but not totally within that frame of reference  Broader Buddhistic discussions 44189 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > Kel: As far as I recalled, you got references about Buddhas and > Great Disciples. And we had this lengthy discussion about gotrabhu > and anuloma nanas. ... S: More lengthy discussions in Bkk - will say more in a Musing down the line. in short, I'm sticking to my story for now:-). ... >When it came to dvihetuka we both admitted lack of > references (with :P). I checked my position with Burmese monks and > they agreed but I didn't ask them to give exact references since I > thought it was done. We don't have class this saturday cause of early > Burmese New Year festival on sunday. People are busy cooking. So I > might bug my teacher tonight to see if he can find references since he > should be free. ... S: Thx - look f/w to anything you find. I believe you'll just find references which make it clear that those with 2 roots cannot reach enlightenment or attain jhanas. The rest we infer differently according to our understanding. We can never know about someone's roots but we can question why someone listens to the teachings, especially on anatta and gets nothing out of it. I think any further speculation, however, is useless. If we don't have more specific references, we can just leave it open and agree we don't know:-/. Metta, Sarah ======= 44190 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > There are many good observations in your post that I agree with, but I > would l ... snip ... ...snip ...So whether sitting or going about their necessary daily > activities, the development of samatha continued. You will be familiar > with the story in the Vism concerning the elder Mahatissa who was in > jhana while walking to the village on his alms round. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. If in walking, these movements of walking are all cittaja ruupa and they have to be so. If the cittas are all jhanas, then these walking movements have to be abhinna's output. Otherwise walking cannot be done by jhanas. Because the object of jhana is separate and not the movement and intention to move. As there are infinite moments, jhana cittas may arise in between. So these jhanas are not in the form of jhana-samapatti or jhana- attainment. In Myanmar, once there was a novice. He went alm round to 3 differtent villages. This happened for a long time. Only when 3 villagers of 3 different villages met, they talked about the4 novice and came to know that the novice was going alm round at the same time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44191 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Nina, Yes, indeed. But sometimes simplification does not satisfy all grades of people. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 05-04-2005 10:43 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Example child, if he is a born sotapanna will not have any ditthi or > > wrong view. Here there need not any thinking. > N: So, this example is about the latent tendency of wrong view of the child. > I understand that you want to make it simple. > Nina. 44192 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:41am Subject: Re: Is memory a mano-dhamma? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "oselok" wrote: > > > Hello, > > Let me ask a simple question: > > is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or > an object of corresponding sense doors? > > Mettena cittena, Dmytro > > http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/ -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Oselok, You asked 'is memory about an imprerssion of sight or sound'? is memory about an object of mano? is memory about an object of corresponding sense doors? Here I have ask you 'what is impression'? Question 1 needs your response. Question 2 : Yes. Memory is an object of mano or mind. Question 3 : Hard to answer because your question is not specific. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44193 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I respect the sincerity of your faith and your knowledge of the > exegetical interpretation of the Tipitaka, but when I read the Sutta > Pitaka I don't find much of what is presented in the Visuddhimagga > for example. The Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that > authority for any teaching lies in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya > Pitaka, so I'm trying to trace the notions of the commentators back > to their source, and cannot find any source in the Sutta Pitaka, and > so now I'm wondering if these notions are supported in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. So when you say: > > > No one adds any new idea. > > Well, I'm not so sure. And so my question (to anyone) still is: what > canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there > that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This > notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I > know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or > is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? > > Respectfully yours, > > Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Geoff, As far as I met, people are talking Sutta, sutta, sutta. But when their understanding is checked, they even do not fully understand what suttas say. Even a single sutta is not fully worked out by such people. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44194 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread (314) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When a being is just going to be reborn in a kama bhumi or in a plane of 11 sensuous planes of existence, there will be the object related to those bhumi. Near death, especially in the final thought process, there are only 5 impulsive consciousness or 5 javana cittas. These javana cittas take the object like 'sight of knives, spears, guns' or 'sight of monks, The Buddha, monastry' or sound of 'crying animals' 'or 'sound of bell' 'sound of chanting' etc etc. Or some see 'the wall of abdhomen of future mother' 'great fire of hell' or sound of mother or sound of 'crying for help' etc. While these appear, marana-asanna-javana take them as current object and death comes. And this is immediately followed by patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness. This consciousness take the same object of marana-asanna-javana cittas and they take the current object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff and Htoo, op 10-04-2005 07:26 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: what > canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there > that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This > notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I > know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or > is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? N: Perhaps I could give an example. The Elements is also a meditation subject of samatha, but the aim is not: to know the elements as only paramattha dhammas devoid of self. The aim is: the elimination of clinging ot the elements. That is quite a different story. The earth kasina means: everything is earth, we cling to earth but it is only earth. Thus, when we think of the different aims it will be clearer what the object and the objective is of samatha and of vipassana. Nina. 44196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is memory a mano-dhamma? nilovg hello Dmytro, op 10-04-2005 08:18 schreef oselok op nibbanka@...: > is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or > an object of corresponding sense doors? N: Mano is another word for citta, no matter it arises in a sense-door process, a mind-door process or it is process free. But I think that you mean: an object experienced through the mind-door. Memory or saññaa accompanies each citta. Otherwise you could not think about sight or sound later on, in a mind-door process. Thus, memory about sight or sound can arise in a mind-door process. Does this answer your question? If it is not clear, let me know, Nina. 44197 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (315) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Just before death, there comes a race and it is the race of kamma. There are many many kamma in the whole samsara. Among them one of kamma comes out as a leading kamma when death is approaching. There are 3 possibilities for arising near death. These possibilities are 1. kamma 2. kamma nimitta 3. gati nimitta Here both kamma nimitta and gati nimitta may be the current object, or future object or the past object. (There may be some who would not agree with these. Once citta-A/Citta-B business dealt with these objects.) But when kamma is the main encounter, the object is the past object only. Because the kamma that arises near death is the shade of the old action and it is not that the being is committing at near death. So if kamma is the chief when dying, then marana-asanna-javana cittas take the object which is the past object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44198 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing N: Perhaps I could give an example. The Elements is also a meditation > subject of samatha, but the aim is not: to know the elements as only > paramattha dhammas devoid of self. The aim is: the elimination of clinging > ot the elements. That is quite a different story. > The earth kasina means: everything is earth, we cling to earth but it is > only earth. > Thus, when we think of the different aims it will be clearer what the object > and the objective is of samatha and of vipassana. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Geoff, and All, Thanks NIna for your kind explanation. There is definitely some difference between 2 types of meditation. With respect, Htoo Naing 44199 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread (316) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhammatthasangaha: vithimuttasangaha; 93. 'Ruupaavacara patisandhiyaa pana panattibhuutam kammanimitta mevaarammanam hoti.' When a dying being is developing rupa jhana, then marana asanna javana will be jhana cittas. In that case all the object of such rupa jhanas are panatti or concepts or names. Ruupaavacara patisandhiyaa_ In rupa brahma rebirth Pannatti bhuutam _ pannatta becomes clearly the object. These pannatti are called 'kamma-nimitta'. Meva here is 'eva' and it means 'such' or 'such that'. 94. 'tathaa aruupa patisandhiyaa ca mahaggatabhuutam panattibhuutanca kammanimittameva yathaarahamaarammanam hoti.' Likewise, non-material rebirth have 2 different objects and they are 'mahaggatabhuutam' or 'mahaggata citta as object' and pannattibhuutanca_ pannatti object. So depending on which plane of arupa bhumi, the object will be mahaggata cittas or pannatti. 95.' asannasattaanam pana jiivita navaka meva patisandhi bhaavena patitthaati, tasamaa te ruupa patisandhikaa naam.' In consciousness-less beings or asannisatta brahmas, the rupa of jiivita navaka kalaapa serves as patisandhi. This is called rupa- patisandhi. There is no consciousness or no citta at all in these asannisatta brahma and this is true for their whole life as long as they are in that realm. Patisandhi or rebirth is rupa-patisandhi or material- rebirth and cuti is rupa-cuti or material-death. While they are living, they live with rupa-bhavanga and there is no citta at all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread.