44400 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, > N: Dhammasangani 1019:Which are states that are limited (paritta)? > All states [N;dhammas] good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to > the universe of sense (kaamaavacara); in other words the five >khandhas. > N: Paritta (insignificant) denotes all kaamaavacaara dhammas. > Dhsg 1020: Which are the states that are sublime (mahaggata)? > States good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the worlds of > Form (rupaavacaara) and Formless (aruupaavacaara); [in other words] > the four khandhas. > N: Note: only the four namakhandhas, not rupa. > Dsgn 1021: Which are the states that are infinite (appamaanaa)? The > Paths that are the Unincluded, and the Fruits of the Paths, and > unconditioned element. Thanks so much! This is exactly what I’m looking for. Is what you have as “universe of senseâ€? a translation of kamavacara? > N: It goes on about which states have which objects. > Dsgn 161: pathavikasina.m , the earth kasina is the subject of the jhanas. But does it state that earth kasina is necessarily *not* paritta and therefore *not* kamavacara? And does it give other objects (subjects) of jhana besides the ten kasinas? If so, does it state that these objects (subjects) are necessarily *not* paritta and therefore *not* kamavacara? Metta, Geoff 44401 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa christine_fo... Hello AndrewL, all, I know that you will receive replies from those with a good understanding of the Tipitaka, who will be able to explain the intricacies of what the Buddha taught about nama and rupa. I have also found this site to be worth wandering around in on a rainy afternoon, with a flask of hot tea and some toast and vegemite. :-) I enjoyed some of the 'Papers on consciousness'. http://consc.net/chalmers/ metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > a.l.: > > It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our > > bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? > > Because the Lord Buddha said so! C'mon, Andrew, get with the program! > > Matthew 44402 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about nama and rupa TGrand458@... Send Email In a message dated 4/14/2005 12:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, lone.renunciant@... writes: If all things are impermanent, and arise and pass away, how, or why, is only one nama or rupa apparent at any given moment. Is it that more elements than one can arise simultaneously, but the mind can only have one object of consciousness at a time? If not, why couldn't we understand two rupa elements at once? Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? Citta? It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? Responses would be appreciated. -a.l. Hi a.l. 1) According to Abhidhamma and I basically agree with this -- the mind can only pay attention to one thing at a time. Its just a limitation of the way our minds work. I think if you experiment with your own mind, you will find it very hard, if not impossible, to pay attention to more than one thing at once. The mind can shift back and forth very fast, but it is just going after one thing at a time. 2) Mental factors and consciousness (nama) is what is aware of mental factors, consciousness, and form. Being that form is also a structural support, we might even include form as a co-factor. TG 44403 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, M: Such questions are way too abstract for my poor primate brain!! :(( C’mon Matthew, you’re a smart guy! This is a very simple question: Is your experience of the immediate present -- what we could loosely call ‘nowness’ -- subject to duration? Stated another way, have you ever had any experience that wasn’t ‘now’? There’s nothing abstract about it, just a very straightforward answer to a very straightforward observation. Geoff 44404 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:31pm Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Good point! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 10 April, 2005 10:22 Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 >Jon Replied: I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. >........................................................ > >Yes, especially when there is insight; however I am not sure what you mean by "in a figurative sense." I mean that a moment of mundane insight is not in itself a transforming moment, but it is by virtue of the accumulated effect of such moments that a transformation eventually occurs. Jon 44405 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, K: Towards the end of your message, you asked: --------------- > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" --------------- I was referring to paramattha dhammas (absolute realities), which I have been talking about throughout our discussion. If you study the Abhidhamma, you will find that it defines all of the things that really exist. At any point in time, including now, there are, really, only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. ................................. The only one I recognize is dosa, i.e., suffering. ********************************************* C: > Faith is empty (neither wholesome or unwholesome), what you have faith-in can be considered wholesome or unwholesome. ----------------------------- K: Does what you have said there help us to understand the dhammas that are arising now? When you say "faith," are you referring to a dhamma? If so, which of the dhammas defined in the Abhidhamma is it? ............................................................................... In terms of the text (i.e., Abhidhamma) I do not remember what it defines as dhammas. Too answer your first question: If you view faith as a concept, and concepts as dhammas that can arise now, then yes. When I say faith I am speaking of a view/belief/concept that one has confidence in. It helps to shape the way people think. ****************************** C: > So, is your faith/confidence in the no-self doctrine "blind" or based on what you have experienced as true? ---------------------------------------------- K: As I have said several times, the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" (or, in Pali, "saddha") is never blind. So, if you want to talk about a moment of consciousness when there is 'blindness to the truth' then there is no point in referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" - because it never arises at such moments. According to the Abhidhamma, 'blindness to knowledge' is the characteristic of the dhamma known as "moha" (ignorance). ........................................................................ This is interesting because "Faith" by definition is blind. To have faith, you have confidence in, not the experience in. ******************************************** C: > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say. ----------------------------------------------------- KH: > > I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says: There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? -------------------------------------- C: > If at the moment of conception, with the three (I, my-self, mine), you are place/born in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are right. However, if it does not place "you" in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are wrong. Remember the real issues are "desire" and "attachment." Therefore, if you understand how to transform/transmute these two so that you can avoid the cycles of suffering, even when the three (I, my-self, mine) are born, you have the Right Understanding. ------------------------------------------------- K: Is that your interpretation of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (or of any other sutta)? If so, then I would like to discuss it further. Otherwise, I think we should stick to discussing dhammas. ........................................................................ This is not an interpretation, however it is my view. Simply put: the Right View is a view that does not cause suffering. All of the 8 are .... ***************************************************** KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. > As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. ----------------------------------- C: > This is also true (90%) for any type of study, science and music included, not just Dharama. I say 90% because if you look at that "insight" as just clear understanding alone then ... Now if that clear understanding is rooted in morality then, you are 100% correct. ------------------- K: Again, I would prefer we discuss the Dhamma as found in the ancient texts. So, when we refer to "insight" we should be referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "insight" (in Pali, "panna" "samma-ditthi" "vipassana"). Insight is always (100% of the time) rooted in morality. In other words, panna always co-arises with alobha (greedlessness) and adosa (harmlessness). ............................................................... By definition, "insight" refers to a deep understanding, often sudden. However, it can arise without attachment to morality. It refers to understanding, it relates to wisdom. Now most good Buddhist consider real wisdom to be rooted in morality. But, by definition it is not. So to avoid misunderstandings, I like to present the link. ********************************* C: When you say "... doubt (vicikiccha) ... is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing." I am force to say, you are being one dimensional, extreme. You have lost sight of the Middle Path. --------------------------------- k: No, I am sure the Middle Path is to know the dhammas that are arising now. Vicikiccha is a dhamma that arises in certain kinds of unwholesome consciousness. It doubts the Dhamma (the 4NT's etc.). As Sarah has explained, a poor Pali-to-English translation of the Kalama Sutta has given the impression that vicikiccha can be a good thing (can arise in wholesome consciousness). ........................................................ The middle path is about avoiding extremes. *************************** C: > What the [Kalama Sutta] does tell us. If a teaching of any type, including a Buddha's, contradicts what you know to true, value what you know to be true more. ------------------------------------------------------- K: No, I am sure the Kalama Sutta tells us nothing of the sort. (See the Bhikkhu Bodhi article Christine referred us to.) According to the Abhidhamma, the only time we really "know something to be true" is in a moment of consciousness in which panna has arisen. The Buddha's teaching can never contradict such moments of panna because the Buddha's teaching *is* panna. ................................................................................ You need to read the suttra again because what I said is a paraphrase. ***************************************** To avoid misunderstandings please try to define, in English, the pali words you use. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 09 April, 2005 16:30 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 44406 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa buddhatrue Hi Andrew, I will give my input to your questions. I like them because they are straightforward. Andrew: If all things are impermanent, and arise and pass away, how, or why, is only one nama or rupa apparent at any given moment. James: This is because there is no self. You are thinking in terms of a *self* which can observe two things at once, but that is not the way it is. "You" (nama/rupa) are a process and that process doesn't take place in parallel lines. For example, in simple terms, first there is seeing a tree- eye consciousness arises to see the tree- then that eye consciousness falls away to be replaced by mind consciousness which registers "tree"- then there is a sound, a taste, a physical sensation, etc. They each arise and pass away very quickly because there isn't a *self* which underlies them. To use an analogy, it is like writing your name on the surface of water with your finger. As soon as you have the tiniest bit written, the water closes again and it is gone (and this process is dukkha because it is so fleeting). Andrew: Is it that more elements than one can arise simultaneously, but the mind can only have one object of consciousness at a time? James: No, only one element can arise at a time. This process isn't like someone watching six television screens (one for each of the senses, and the mind) with input coming in at all times and the person just switches from television to television. That type of analogy supposes a *self* which is doing the watching. Andrew: Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? Citta? James: Nama knows nama and nama knows rupa. There is that which is seen (object) and the seeing itself (registering in the mind); and the same for the other sense doors. Andrew: It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? James: Actually, most people do think that they can be mindful of many processes at once, because they have the mistaken notion of a *self* doing the observing. The ego creates this illusion of the self because it is too painful and scary to realize that there is absolutely nothing permanent underlying the present moment. Metta, James 44407 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamato... Chris, Thanks for the url. I had read this before but rereading it there is a paragraph which is of relevance to this discussion: ___________________________________________________________________________ The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhÄ?na at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the NikÄ?yas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhÄ?na in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipaá¹á¹hÄ?na Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipaá¹á¹hÄ?na Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhÄ?nas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhÄ?nas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipaá¹á¹hÄ?na Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhÄ?nas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper. ___________________________________________________________________________ Unfortunately, being out of scope of this paper, Bhikkhu Bodhi does not discuss this issue further. Reading the Satipatthana sutta though (from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html), the very first practice that is recommended by the Buddha is: ___________________________________________________________________________ [1] " There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. " Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. " In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. ___________________________________________________________________________ This surely would lead to the development of jhana. Apart from this, the rest of the sutta seems to advocate practices that are pure insight practices and may not lead to jhana. I don't have the experience to comment too deeply on this, however, it would appear that a study of whether the Buddha taught a process of pure insight as a way to arahantship would have to rely heavily on this sutta. Kind Regards, Evan Hello Jon, Evan, all, I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Bodhi's article has been mentioned this time round? 'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas' Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm metta, Chris 44408 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Vism.XIV,152 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 152. (xxx) It is the maker of what is to be made, it is the maker in the mind (manamhi kaaro), thus it is 'attention' (bringing-to-mind--manasi-kaara). It makes the mind different from the previous [life-continuum] mind, thus it is attention. It has three ways of doing this: as the controller of the object, as the contoller of the cognitive series, and as the controller of impulsions. Herein, the controller of 'the object' is the maker in the mind, thus it is 'attention'. That has the characteristic of conducting (saara.na). Its function is to yoke associated states to the object. It is manifested as confrontation with an object. Its proximate cause is an object. It should be regarded as the conductor (saarathi) of associated states by controlling the object, itself being included in the formations aggregate. 'Controller of the cognitive series' is a term for five-door adverting (70). 'Controller of impulsions' is a term for mind-door adverting (71). These last two are not included here. 44409 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:13pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Many thanks for the expert answer you have given for sa.nkhaara, sa.nkhaara dhammas, sa.nkhata and sa.nkhata dhamma. But I am not as smart as you may think I am, so please allow me to ask some blunt questions as usual. N: Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that arise because of conditions. ... Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma which depends on other dhammas that condition its arising. T: The above definition sounds to me more like sa.nkhaata dhamma than sa.nkhaara dhamma. Since sa.nkhaara means "combine or put together", why doesn't it follow that any sa.nkhaara dhamma cooks up (prung teng), or puts together ingredients to make other dhammas? For example, vitakka and vicara are vaci-sa.nkhaara because they form spoken words. Here spoken words are cooked up by vitakka and vicara, therefore they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. -------------- N: Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must fall away. ...Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from being conditioned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. T: The above definition of sa.nkhata dhamma is so broad that it is confusing. Except Nibbana, all dhammas are sa.nkhata dhamma because they arise and fall away. Thus all sa.nkhaara dhammas, which depend on other dhammas that condition their arising, are also sa.nkhata? ----------------- N: Hence the Buddha taught that sa.nkhaara dhammas are also sa.nkhaata dhammas, dhammas which have been conditioned (Thai: prung teng lew). T: This is the most confusing point that I discussed above. Now, how should I understand that vitakka and vicara that condition words and the conditioned words themselves are both sa.nkhaara and sa.nkhaata dhammas at the same time? Again, since all dhammas, except Nibbana, are subject to arising-and-passing-away characteristic and because of conditions, does it follow that they perform two roles at the same time : i.e. they arise because something else conditions them to arise (thus, they are sa.nkhaata dhammas), and because of their arising phenomena other dhammas may arise as a consequence (hence they act as sa.nkhaara dhammas)? Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 13-04-2005 23:36 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > T: Aren't sankhara dhammas (formations or fabrications, depending > > on who the translator is) different from sankhata dhammas (all > > conditioned dhammas)? <'They formed the formed, Bhikkhus, that's > > why they are called formations'> > N: > They refer to the same dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, but there is a > slight difference in meaning that is emphasized. 44410 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, Back on your earlier letter: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > S: What you describe as mindfulness, I see as a special focusing. The > > mindfulness which counters ignorance or aversion is not any > focusing, but > > the momentary awareness which arises, is aware of any dhamma appearing > > (without any selection) and falls away immediately. If there is a > wish or > > intention for it to arise or be aware of a particular object such as > > sensations in the body, this will be a hindrance, as I see it. > A:> And here we are. > > Please describe your concept of mindfulness in greater detail. Ie its > causes, characteristics, its scope, maybe we can get somewhere. .... S: [Pls read posts on sati in U.P. and the chapter on sati in ‘Cetasikas’ with quotes from the texts]. When we are discussing sati in satipatthana, as we are here, it can only be aware of a paramattha dhamma appearing. So when there is awareness of say seeing or visible object, sati is there. When there is awareness of hearing, sound, like, dislike, sati is there. How can its characteristic be known? Only by panna (understanding)which knows when there is and isn’t awareness. The cause is hearing the dhamma, wise reflection and a comprehension of what paramattha dhammas are or ‘firm remembrance’. For example, if there is the idea that awareness can be aware of the body or objects that can be made to arise, satipatthana cannot develop. So the characteristic is just being aware and the scope is the presently appearing paramattha dhamma. Sometimes friends ask why the stress on seeing, visible objects and other sense experiences and objects rather than all the more common mind door activity. The reason is that most this mind door activity is concerned with long, long stories about what is seen and heard, for example. At such moments of conceptualizing, no paramattha dhamma is appearing and so there cannot be any sati (of satipatthana). In between, however, there are experiences through the sense doors and also paramattha dhammas appearing through the mind door. These can be directly known because they are the ‘realities’. ..... > > S: the four foundations are the proximate cause: hardness, softness, > heat, > > cold, feeling, anger, attachment, seeing, visible object – these are > > examples of dhammas included in the four foundations. Without the > arising > > of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears (i.e > is > > the object of the javana cittas). It's impossible for mindfulness or > any > > other dhamma to be `aroused intentionally' except in our imaginations. > A:> Well aren't all dhammas 'arising' and passing each moment? When you > say knowing the arising and passing of a dhamma isn't it only meant > 'each one as it arises to'.. say attention? Or a specific citta? .... S:Yes, all dhammas are arising and passing each moment. Actually I said ‘Without the arising of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears’. What I meant is that the javana cittas take an object – either a concept or a reality. If it is a reality, such as visible object which has just been seen and if awareness, understanding and other wholesome cetasikas arise, it can be known at that moment. The wholesome cittas are accompanied by at least 18 wholesome mental factors performing their respective functions. These mental factors are all arising and passing away continually along with the citta. These and your later questions are good ones to clarify. Pls ask further if it’s not clear. .... A:> Couldn't you see it being "aroused intentionally" by a specific method > that is more than just the element of "wishing for"? .... S: No. How can visible object be aroused intentionally now rather than say sound or heat? As James suggests (if I follow correctly)in response to your other post, such ideas are rooted in an idea of self. .... > > S: It's helpful, very helpful, to read and reflect on different > realities > > as you're doing. I'm not exactly sure of your Qu, but if you're > wondering > > if we can think ourselves into being aware of dhammas, then the > answer is > > no. We can read and consider in order to understand dhammas as anatta > > better, but not specially try to experience what we read about. > A:> Sure we can think ourselves through things. You had to think to pay > for CMA didn't you? Similarly we can start with thinking and get > ourselves to a point where we can be more aware and so on. But then > again I don't want to touch on where we talk about > self-belief-motivated practise eventually eliminating belief of self. > Did we ever settle that? > > Looks like this is becoming a big stumbling block. .... S: What we take for me or you thinking to pay for CMA is conventional talk for many, many moments of thinking and other realities which are not self. I said that self-belief can never eradicated the belief in self because it’s sakkaya ditthi. Any (micha) ditthi can only lead to more (micha) ditthi, not to samma ditthi. It’s like thinking that anger is the way to develop metta or harsh speech is the way to cultivate gentle speech. It makes no sense to me. .... > > S: I would say, be wary of any advice in the name of `a noble one'. > See my > > Musings2 post. Noting `aversion, aversion' where it appears is not the > > development of satipatthana as I understand. Andrew, please don't be > > misled by what you've heard about others' attainments. > A:> Well no one told me he's a noble one but he certainly seemed to act in > a way completely in accord with dhamma (righteous conduct) and made a > sensible statement before that about the dhamma. .... S: As it said in the sutta I quoted recently, we can only know about another’s wisdom by careful questioning over a long time and IF we have the wisdom to know. There are examples in the suttas of arahants not recognizing other arahants until they’d conversed at length. .... A:> I guess I just > assumed. But even if he's not arya, isn't it good to see a True Man, > as they're called in the suttas? His point seems to be OK. I brought > up the example of waiting for the bus that morning and having the sun > make me want to walk away and this is what he told me to do. Isn't > anger/annoyance and so on just aversion? Recognizing it as such seems > fine to me, I guess you could say calling it something isn't > recognizing it, but it's better to label it and act equanimiously than > letting it go unknown and influence me to do something rooted in > aversion, don't you think? .... S: Good friends that point out treasures are always worthy of respect. There’s no need to speculate about them. What you say is fine and even theoretically understanding what the real problems in our life are is useful. Better still would be to understand the dhammas as anatta, otherwise it’s still my annoyance, anger, equanimity and so on that we’re so attached to. Metta, Sarah ======= 44411 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Htoo, Yes, I think you have explained it clearly for the examples given. A difficult topic. Before you had a discussion with Htoo (below) and so I raised your qu. with K.Sujin. I think her answer is just as you've indicated in your recent message. As I recall, she said the abhinnas are jhana cittas which condition the kamavacara cittas to perform different functions. For example,the actual seeing in dibbacakkhu nana which Htoo refers to, is kamavacara seeing conditoned by the abhinna which gives it the special power to perform the special functions. I understand there are different kinds of wisdom (or nanas)at the different moments with the rapidly changing processes of cittas as you suggest. I hope this helps and that I've got it correct. Metta, Sarah ======== In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote (#40913): > Dear Htoo, > When supernatural powers are being performed, what plane of cittas are there > at that moment? Kaamavacara cittas accompanied by paññaa or jhanacittas? > Nina. > op 10-01-2005 17:57 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have > > beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to > > switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very > > quickly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo:>Dear Nina, This is very good question. It is a hard question as well. To be honest I do not know. But what the text says is that BBBB..BBBMPUAGAb.... After gotrabhu there arise Abhinna-jhana-javana and then see everything with divine eye if it is dibbacakkhu nana, hear with divine ear if it is dibbasota nana, see all lives in the past if it is pubbenivasa nana, see what is inside of others' mind if it is paracittavijjanana nana, and many other. It is hard to explain. That is why it is said that there are areas that ordinary people should not appraoch and explore.< 44412 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, Back to our detective work on the little boy’s cittas:-) --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > 3 virati cetasikas arise in single out of 3. > > If 'kaaya-ducarita virati' arises, vaci-ducarita virati and > macchaajiva virati do not arise. When vaci-ducarita virati arises, > kaaya-ducarita virati and macchaajiiva virati do not arise. When > macchaajiiva virati arises, kaaya-ducarita virati and vaci-ducarita > virati doe not arise. They are mutually exclusive in 8 mahakusala > cittas. ... S: Yes, no suggestion otherwise. ... H: > Let us go back to the boy. He is purely reading. Just go for a single > profile of one moment of javana citta in the middle of reading. > > He reads and apperceives that 'a' means 'one and unspecified > representative of the whole group of something'. Here javana > is 'understanding' of the concept 'a' and its meaning. > > The object is no more vision of the word on the page of the book but > the object is pannatti, which bears ''the meaning of the word'a' in > its full essence.'' ... S: OK, if this is what you meant by ‘purely reading and learning’ before:-). I think the goal-posts may have been moved a little, but that's fine. .... <...> H:> Among these 20 javana cittas, 12 cittas are akusala cittas and 8 > cittas are mahakusala cittas. > > He is reading. One of javana cittas while he is reading has to be one > of these 20 cittas. ... S: OK. ... H:> When he is reading, he is not directed to kaaya-ducarita or > kaayasucarita, vaci-ducarita or vaci-sucarita. He is not linked with > livelihood when reading. ... S: If you’re taking ‘reading’ as one javana moment with the concept ‘a’ then I follow you:-) ... H:> I do not believe he will be in the middle of javana cittas with any > of 3 virati cetasikas while reading. ... S: OK. Usually when we refer to reading or learning, we’re referring to a concept which consists of many, many javana processes, but I follow you now. .... H:> I know your examples. If he is taking his sister's computer and the > mind is not at reading of words on the screen but on the position of > computer then it may well be kaaya-ducarita. But I already > said 'purely reading'. He is absorbed in reading and unperturbable at > that moment. .... S: OK, we're now looking at 'reading and learning' in terms of one moment, being absorbed with the concept 'a'. .... H: > Purely reading. > Sarah continued: > > Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. > ***** > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ... S: :-)) ...> H:> I have been contemplating. I already said that it is written in a > book written in Myanmar. I already told you the author. I did not say > I accept or do not accept. ... S: Ah, another wrong assumption on my part – an assumption that when you write a thread that you agree with your message:-). ...> H:> But generally I agree that when a boy is reading his school lessons, > most of his javana cittas will be akusala cittas. ... S: So we both agree here now, at least. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <...> > S:Yes, but we can't say that just because it isn't akusala kamma > patha, that it must be kusala:-/I don't think this is 'simplicity :-). > .... > ***** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Generally yes. We cannot overgeneralize. But there are 2 > alternative that is 8 mahakusala cittas and 12 akusala cittas while > the boy is 'PURELY READING AND UNDERSTANDING'. Here I add, > UNDERSTANDING. > > If understanding involve, how will you say? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I would say most likely it’s akusala because the understanding of the book has nothing to do with panna (wisdom) and the cittas are rooted in lobha or moha at such times. The concentration is unwholesome, though the results seem so good. This is like most of our day. When we understand the news in the paper or the road signs when driving or the cookery book recipe, there’s nothing wholesome about it when there's no dana, sila or bhavana involved ... > ... > S: Most likely it is lobha:-). > ... <...> > Htoo: > > You missed the point. I was not talking on uddhacca-cetasika. I was > talking on uddhacca-citta. Please re-read my earlier reply. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .. S: Yes, but I’m not ruling out attachment as you are at these times. There’s so much attachment when we read or study. As you know, there doesn’t even have to be pleasant feeling. ... H:> There left 10 akusala cittas and 8 mahakusala cittas. If he is not in > the state of happiness and just indifferent then there will be 4 > lobha cittas and 4 mahakusala cittas left. > > If he is not disturbed by reading and by understanding of his > lessons, there is no reason to arise dosa, while he is PURELY READING > AND UNDERSTANDING. > > So there left 2 alternatives > > a) 4 lobha mula cittas > b) 4 mahakusala cittas > > If he is alert and no need to be self-stimulated or self-prompted > there will be 2 alternatives. > > a) 2 lobha cittas > b) 2 mahakusala cittas > > These cittas are difficult to be differentiated. > > a) Moha, uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa > b) Saddha, sati, hiri, ottappa > > But how does he understand his school lesson with 2 lobha cittas? > There is no panna in 2 lobha cittas. .... S: Most of the day we function very well without panna, but with lobha. Lobha makes the world go round....If it is not samatha or satipatthana, there’s no panna. Where is the saddha, sati, hiri and ottappa? Concentrating on school lessons and even being top of the class doesn’t need any panna at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 44413 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:06am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Thus we see that there are different aspects to right effort. We read in the scriptures about “four right endeavours” and these are aspects of right effort. We read for example in the Middle Length Sayings (III, 141, the Analysis of the Truths) that Såriputta explained to the monks the four noble Truths. He spoke about dukkha, its origination, its cessation and the way leading to its cessation, the eightfold Path. He explained about right effort, one of the factors of the eightfold Path, that there are four right endeavours: * "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your reverences, is called right endeavour." * ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44414 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Geoff, I respect your keen questioning and understand that you wish to stick to suttas and the Abhidhamma texts themselves. There's a relevant controversy in the Kathavatthu under 'Hearing in Jhana', but you may not accept the Kathavatthu as part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. If you'd like me to type the details, let me know- it's not too long and very entertaining. Briefly, as the commentary summarises the controversy: "the opionion is held by some...that because the Exalted One called a sound a thorn to First Jhana, and since sound, if not heard, cannot be a thorn in the flesh of one who had attained that state, it was inferable that such an one was able to hear." Naturally, this is refuted. I think if you also read this message of Nina's it may be helpful even though it's quoting from the commentaries: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34078 Metta, Sarah ===== 44415 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this on MN 117,14. I saw the page referenced as M.iii,73 but > didn't catch the note on vitakka as intention. I still don't see where > this (below) paragraph comes from. Is it somehow a different translation > of MN 117,14 beginning with "The thinking, thought, intention, ..." or > possibly a different version of MN that the Vism. commentator > (Dhammapaala) was working with? B. ~Naa.namoli translated both. ... S: I think we can get this one - I just checked the Pali: > Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing > (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). > Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa > vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). ... S: As I read the note you gave here, the only part in quotes from Miii,73 is "absorption, absorbing (appanaa vyappanaa)" .... > Vism.117,14. 'And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, > taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, > intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, ... S: the Pali for these last two items is: appanaa vyappanaa ..... >directing of mind, verbal > formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who > possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path*: this is > right intention that is noble....a factor of the path." .... S: I'd also like to stress that the reference here to appanaa is only used for lokuttara samma sankappa and not for mundane samma sankappa which was defined as follows: "And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? The intention of renunciation, the intention of non-ill will, and the intention of non-cruelty: this is right intention that is affected by taints...on the side of attachment." This stresses how the lokuttara factors are considered as equivalent to first jhana in degree of intensity if higher jhanas have not been obtained, as I understand the passages. Metta, Sarah p.s Nanamoli's translations do differ a lot in different places with the most controversial being in 'Path of Discrimination'. B.Bodhi discusses this aspect in the Preface. "In place of Ven Nanamoli's novel renderings I have in most cases returned to the clearer and better established terminology he employed in 'The Path of Purification'. Lots more detail is given inc details of 'terminological changes' if you're interested. 44416 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attainments sarahprocter... Hi Evan. I don't know that anyone replied to your questions, very understandably:-). --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > I gather that from some of the discussions I have been having here that > some do not believe that the attainments of practitioners and monks are > as great as they were in the times of the Buddha. Although I would agree > with that statement, I think it is to the extent of the diminishing of > the attainments that I would probably not agree on. ... S: I think that we can only determine for ourselves how very little understanding or true calm there is in a day. How easily we fool ourselves that pleasant states, concentration or unusual experiences are what we read about in the texts under the umbrellas of vipassana, satipatthana, samatha or jhana. Perhaps the more we learn the more we can see just how much ignorance and attachment has been accumulated and how little awareness there is in a day. Is it the same for others? We can only question and consider their comments on the Truths and see if these accord with what we read or understand with our very limited knowledge. In the end, it doesn't matter and I don't see it as being very helpful to speculate. The most important thing is to stress that any wisdom is anatta - it doesn't belong to anyone. You may like to also look in U.P. at 'Sasana- decline'. Metta, Sarah ===== > So, what I would be interested in knowing is what peoples' thoughts are > on this topic - specifically: > > 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) > that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane > attainments? > 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits > and knowledge of the path? > 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? > 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? > > I look forward to the responses. 44417 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:30am Subject: Samma Samadhi...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Criteria for Evaluation of Right Concentration: After emerging from the deepest states so far attained one reviews it thus: 1: This absorption is Happy now, and results in future happiness too... 2: This absorption is Noble, and unrivalled by anything in this world... 3: This absorption is not reached by inferior or unworthy persons... 4: This absorption is entered upon & emerged from by me fully aware... 5: This absorption is perfectly Calm, Stilled, Unified, and neither fabricated, suppressible, reversible nor deniable... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44418 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 htootintnaing S: Most of the day we function very well without panna, but with lobha. Lobha makes the world go round....If it is not samatha or satipatthana, there's no panna. Where is the saddha, sati, hiri and ottappa? Concentrating on school lessons and even being top of the class doesn't need any panna at all. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Few.....! Now we get the point. There are 10 kinds or 10 methods of speaking. I used one of these 10. That method is 'crossing the flowing river'. When we cross the flowing river we have to move up stream on the side so that we can get the right spot on the other side. Now 'the role' of pannindria cetasika comes out brilliantly. That is Eistein did not have panna when he thought out relavity theory. Newton did not have panna when he discovered gravity. Galileo did not have panna when he discovered the earth goes roung the sun. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: You may have read about 'tikkha and mandha' in case of magga-appana- vithi vara. 44419 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (329) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm There are 6 deva bhumis or deva realms. They are also called kaama sugati bhumi. Kaama means 'sensuous'. Sugati means 'agreeable direction or destination' or 'happy destination'. Bhuumi means 'common place where all the beings of the same species, the same characters dwell, stay, live, grow, enjoy. Where do they go when they die in these 6 realms of deva? Where did they come from before they are reborn in these 6 realms of deva? If the beings in these 6 deva realms are tihetuka beings they may be reborn in any of 31 realms and this will depend on their maturition. a) They can go to 4 apaaya bhumi or 4 woeful destinations. b) They can be reborn as a human being. c) They can be reborn in the same realm or other deva realms. d) They can be reborn in 20 brahma bhumis if they have jhanas. The last group also comprise 5 pure-abode or 5 suddhavaasa brahma bhumis where ariya brahmas are reborn. This happen when ariya deva beings are anagams and they die in their deva realms and then will be reborn in one of these 5 ariya bhumis. Where did they come from before rebirth at these 6 deva realms? a) All 4 arupa brahmas can be reborn in any of these 6 deva realms. b) All rupa brahmas with the exception of asannasatta can be reborn in any of these 6 deva realms. Asannasatta will be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi as they are 4th jhana brahmas. c) Any of beings in any of 6 deva realms may be reborn as deva beings. d) Human beings can go to any of 6 deva realm as next life rebirth. e) Beings of 4 apaaya bhumis may be reborn in any of 6 deva realms depending on their past life kusalas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44420 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Attainments Evan_Stamato... Sarah, I only raised it as a question because there seemed to be quite a bit of doubt from a number of posters here about whether any beings in this time attain any of the fruits of the path. I just asked out of curiosity more than anything else. Kind Regards, Evan S: I think that we can only determine for ourselves how very little understanding or true calm there is in a day. How easily we fool ourselves that pleasant states, concentration or unusual experiences are what we read about in the texts under the umbrellas of vipassana, satipatthana, samatha or jhana. Perhaps the more we learn the more we can see just how much ignorance and attachment has been accumulated and how little awareness there is in a day. Is it the same for others? We can only question and consider their comments on the Truths and see if these accord with what we read or understand with our very limited knowledge. In the end, it doesn't matter and I don't see it as being very helpful to speculate. The most important thing is to stress that any wisdom is anatta - it doesn't belong to anyone. You may like to also look in U.P. at 'Sasana- decline'. Metta, Sarah 44421 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > TM does nothing (IMO) other than provide a neutral meditation subject >along with the standard instructions to gently return the attention to that >subject whenever it is noticed that the mind has wandered. Such a practice will, >if other appropriate conditions are in place, lead to the jhanas. Without >needed supporting conditions it will not. There is really no "big deal" about TM >at all. > > TM aside, though, let's consider further the practice you describe here, because it relates to the question of jhana. Are you suggesting that the training of the mind in this manner would be an instance of kusala? Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with any of the kinds of kusala I have seen described. You mention other appropriate conditions. What do you have in mind here? Jon 44422 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff Thanks for filling us in on the background to your query. You say in subsequent posts that if you cannot be shown a direct canonical statement to the same effect as the commentary, you will adopt the plain and literal interpretation of the suttas as advocated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. May I suggest that a better course would be to keep an open mind about the whole thing for the time being. You see, most (almost all) modern teachers and writers reject one part or another of the commentaries, but there is no unanimity among them as to which part that should be, or the reason for rejecting it. In general, they find reasons for rejecting the part or parts that don't fit with their views. As far as I know, TB is alone among modern teachers on this particular point. I am not going to try and persuade you of the correctness of the commentarial position, but I would like to make a couple of observations in the light of the passage you have quoted. First, I think it's true to say that there's no actual inconsistency between the commentarial statements and the sutta texts on this point; it is really a matter of the commentaries going to a level of detail that is not found in the suttas (this at least seems to be the position as far as TB is concerned). Now there is nothing remarkable about this; it is the purpose and function of the commentaries to fill in details that those with a lesser level of understanding need in order to grasp the message of the Buddha's actual words. Secondly, it is not a correct characterisation of the Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purification) to say that it describes a meditation practice in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. That is a rather crude approximation of a much more subtle and worthy form of kusala mental development that the text deals with. Thirdly, as regards anapanasati, it is often suggested that the Buddha gave a step-by-step teaching on this form of samatha, but that is not the case in my view. If you look carefully at the suttas usually relied on for this assertion (Satipatthana S, Mindfulness of Breathing S), you'll see that what he taught in those suttas was how insight can be developed along with already developed anapanasati, and in particular how jhana consciousness can become the basis for the attainment of enlightenment in highly developed beings. >I will quote Ajahn Thanissaro as to why I’m inquiring about >canonical confirmation regarding the commentarial definition of jhana >as a state of ‘fixed samadhi’ devoid of sensory form >perception which is replaced by the appearance of a mental >countersign to be the object of jhana, and this object is not a >paramattha dhamma because it apparently isn’t subject to >momentary change (this is the commentarial definition of jhana as I >presently understand it, if I’m wrong on this please correct >me). > > I would not say that what is described here is a commentarial 'definition' of jhana. I think jhana is regarded as a plane of consciousness different to that of ordinary (kamavacara) consciousness, and I think it is this that 'defines' jhana. In any event, I am not familiar with the term 'fixed samadhi', and would be interested to know where it comes from. Jon >In Wings to Awakening: Part III-F, Ajahn Thanissaro says: > >"Part of the controversy over this question [as to whether or not >jhana is necessary for transcendent panna] may be explained by the >fact that the commentarial literature defines jhana in terms that >bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of >Purification -- the cornerstone of the commentarial system -- takes >as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasina, in >which one stares at an external object until the image of the object >is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a >countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold >concentration, a necessary prelude to jhana. ... > 44423 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/15/05 9:09:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsabbott@... writes: > TM aside, though, let's consider further the practice you describe here, > because it relates to the question of jhana. Are you suggesting that > the training of the mind in this manner would be an instance of kusala? > Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with any of > the kinds of kusala I have seen described. You mention other > appropriate conditions. What do you have in mind here? > > Jon > ========================= All that I can tell you is that it leads to calm and into the jhanas. I know this first-hand. The calm and peace is clearly wholesome. Among the other supports are a degree of energy and calm to begin with. At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just as well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration DOES lead to calm. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44424 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:58am Subject: Re: Attainments kelvin_lwin Hi Evan, As long as the teachings are still available and understood it's still possible. Even if it's not there will always be pacceka- buddhas. > 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) > that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane > attainments? yes, many practice and the most successful ones are the ones who are completely unknown. > 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits > and knowledge of the path? yes, http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/nl9811.html > 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? many > 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? if one is devoted enough or have sufficient paramis then why not? - kel 44425 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kelvin_lwin Hi All, Doesn't this seem directed by sense of self and bound to be akusala? - kel > "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your > reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, > exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states > that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that > have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… > for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development > and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your > reverences, is called right endeavour." 44426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Hi James, Exactly, that is the wheel I have as a booklet, and it is very good. Nina. op 14-04-2005 21:28 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > If you have the time and the > inclination, you can read the biography of Sariputta at this link: > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html 44427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about nama and rupa nilovg Hello Andrew A, It is as James said, there is < the mistaken notion of a *self* doing the observing.> I try if I can add something. I also like your questions. op 14-04-2005 21:21 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: Many elements arise and fall away, citta is accompanied by several cetasikas. But, as James explained, only one object at a time can be known. > A: Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? > Citta? N: Citta is nama and it can cognize nama and rupa. Sati also knows, paññaa also knows, but they each know in their own way. Paññaa investigates the true nature of nama and rupa while sati is aware of them, but only one dhamma is known at a time, either nama or rupa. When the theoretical understanding is correct we can reflect on nama and rupa and consider them when they occur now. I quote from my Vipassana Letters (Ch 6) which I read to Lodewijk today, at dinner time. Nina. 44428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The concept of time, Geoff. nilovg Hi Geoff, You could read: Abhidhamma Studies, Ven. Nyanaponika, about the concept of time. Many aspects, very good. Nina. op 14-04-2005 22:11 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@...:> > Geoff: >> But you're avoiding my query: Do you assert that >> the immediate present has temporal duration? Yes or no. > 44429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Blind Monk- Howard nilovg Hi James, I like this story. it shows the Buddha's compassion when he said: "Besides, as the monk had already attained arahatship he could have no intention of killing, so he was innocent." As in the Vinaya, we read that monks asked whether this was akusala kamma and the Buddha asked: did he have the intention to do this? Nina. op 14-04-2005 21:20 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > "The Story of the Monk Cakkhupala (Verse 1): 44430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 14-04-2005 22:40 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: >> N: Dhammasangani 1019:Which are states that are limited (paritta)? >> All states [N;dhammas] good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to >> the universe of sense (kaamaavacara); in other words the five >> khandhas. >> N: Paritta (insignificant) denotes all kaamaavacaara dhammas. >> Dhsg 1020: Which are the states that are sublime (mahaggata)? Is what you have as “universe of senseâ€? a translation of > kamavacara? N: Yes. I use the PTS transl which is not always clear next to the Pali text I have. It would be useful for you, being a pali student. > >> N: It goes on about which states have which objects. >> Dsgn 161: pathavikasina.m , the earth kasina is the subject of the > jhanas. > G: But does it state that earth kasina is necessarily *not* paritta and > therefore *not* kamavacara? And does it give other objects (subjects) > of jhana besides the ten kasinas? If so, does it state that these > objects (subjects) are necessarily *not* paritta and therefore *not* > kamavacara? N: Yes, they are under the heading of ruupaavacara-kusala.m, Ch II. § 203: When, he may attain to the heavens of form, he cultivates the way [thereto], aloof from sensuous desires, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by the artifice of water fire air blue-black yellow red white... enters into and abides in the First jhana...> § 263 deals with the asubha. About corpses. Now Book 2 of the Abhidhamma, the Vibhanga, Ch 12. At the end there is an Interrogation, very short and compact. Three jhanas should not be said to have low objects or sublime objects; sometimes have immeasurable object.... The fourth jhaana sometimes has low (paritta) object; sometimes has sublime object; sometimes has immeasurable object... Here I was puzzlled, but there is a possibility I had overseen: the superpowers. These have as base the fourth jhana, and, as the Co, the Dispeller of Delusion (p.101) says, they have the body as object in the performing of miracles with a visible body... So, when w elook at the Co and then return to the text we see that we could have known, but the Co. drew our attention to this possibility. This is a way to check whether you find it helpful to sometimes look at a co. Another phrase: Three jhanas should not be said to have low objects or sublime objects. The Co explains: they have a sign as object. A sign is not a sense object, a paritta object. One can really stumble without the Co. The Atthasalini is the Co to the Dhammasangani. This mentions also (as I referred to) the example of Kalama Alara who did not hear the sound of five hundred Carts. The Points of Controversy debates about sound being a thorn for jhana. It is explained that when in jhana one does not hear nor see. Nina. 44431 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > > Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with > > any of the kinds of kusala I have seen described. Howard: > All that I can tell you is that it leads to calm and into the > jhanas. I know this first-hand. The calm and peace is clearly > wholesome. This is an interesting question. Is it possible to have "calm and peace" which is somehow *not* kusala? By contrast, is it possible to have pain and suffering that *is* kusala? An analogy from the medical field (where I work) would be certain treatments (such as, say, chemotherapy) that cause suffering in the short-term, but are ultimately "wholesome" (e.g. curative). Is there a something similar in the theory of kusala/akusala? Matthew 44432 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) buddhistmedi... Dear Kel - The question you posted reminds me of a number of topics that were discussed/debated here not very long ago. For example: Are 'deliberate practice' and 'sitting meditation' considered akusala? Is sitting (samatha) meditation tampered with the 'self' and lobha? I remember even the 'serious' meditation effort as suggested by monks (e.g. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw) was labeled as miccha vayama. "I wouldn't want to make this or any other aspect of the Teachings into `daily meditations' sort of thing. Otherwise the `self' would surely come in to try to arrange things." I thought such discussion is a dead battery. So why do you want to jumpstart it? Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > Doesn't this seem directed by sense of self and bound to be akusala? > > - kel > > > "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your > > reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, > > exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled > states > > that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states > that > > have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… > > for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development > > and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your > > reverences, is called right endeavour." 44433 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewL, Others have responded to this but I wanted to refer again to something Tep posted to ask BB in #43885. The mind is serial, only one exist at any given time according to abhidhamma. Now for beginners, objects and awareness are faint. Then it many things will come into awareness field and it'll seem simultaneous. It's fine as awareness is getting stronger. Then awareness will get a clear and precise hold on a particular object as it gets even stronger. However, it can still have the "persisting observer" as mentioned by BB. That layer still need to be penetrated to see the flow of the mind itself. Any of these experiences are valid for the practitioner at that particular stage though. - kel 44434 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, > suggested by monks (e.g. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw) was labeled as > miccha vayama. So I thought Ven. Sariputta words would be more authoritative. > I thought such discussion is a dead battery. So why do you want to > jumpstart it? Simple answer is cause I'm still a puthujjana :) - kel 44435 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, Sarah, Jon and everyone, J: I think it's true to say that there's no actual inconsistency > between the commentarial statements and the sutta texts on this point Well the commentarial position doesn’t seem to represent very well at all some of the most graphic descriptions of jhanic experience given in the suttas. In AN V.28 we read (also MN 77): “There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. *He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* "Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, *the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* This is the first development of the five-factored noble right concentration.â€? (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) This clearly indicates that the meditator is very much aware of the body in jhana, and that the primary object of the first jhana is piti and sukha arising from the absence of the five hindrances J: as regards anapanasati, it is often suggested that the Buddha > gave a step-by-step teaching on this form of samatha, but that is not > the case in my view. If you look carefully at the suttas usually relied > on for this assertion (Satipatthana S, Mindfulness of Breathing S), > you'll see that what he taught in those suttas was how insight can be > developed along with already developed anapanasati You seem to be basing your view on the notion that samatha/jhana is necessarily a separate practice from vipassana. I would suggest that the above mentioned sutta passage is a graphic description of the fifth step of Anapanasati Sutta (first injunction of second tetrad on vedana) , wherein one attains the first jhana. It seems to me to be a very long stretch to assert that anapanasati -- the most detailed description of meditation given in the suttas -- is not describing right samadhi, i.e. jhana, the eighth limb of the noble path. I’m sure your aware that the correct objects for developing jhana are the four anupassna’s of right sati. And (IMO) for this reason, the commentarial definition of jhana needlessly and unkillfully fractures the integral development of sila, samadhi, and panna. Another sutta description of jhana clearly supports Ajahn Thanissaro’s understanding that jhana is a state involving the coupling of samatha and vipassana (AN IX.36, appropriately titled Jhana Sutta): “'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.â€? (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) This clearly indicates that the five aggregates are experienced in jhana, and that they are paramattha dhammas because they can be experienced as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. By any other name this is vipassana. This passage also states that jhana, as defined here, is essential for the ‘ending of the mental fermentations.’ That is, no panna and no lokuttara magga w/o this type of jhana (which obviously isn’t far removed from what commentarial trad. calls vipassana, but that’s another discussion which we could have at a later time: i.e. the unskillfulness of ‘dry insight’ w/o proper attention to mental unification). J: As far as I know, TB is alone among modern teachers on this particular point. Ajahn Chah also said that there can be no vipassana without jhana but please don’t ask me to track down where he said it. I think the more people delve into the Sutta Pitaka the more they may question the commentarial position on not only this issue, but a number of other commentarial interpretations as well (we can get to those at a later time also). J: it is really a matter of the commentaries going to a level of detail that is not found in the suttas But when the level of detail doesn’t jive with the level of detail in the suttas there’s a problem, and in such cases the Buddha states in Parinibbana Sutta (as you probably know) that the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka are the authority, and not any commentarial tradition. This is precisely why I have such great respect for the Pali Sutta Pitaka. It’s not an open system where anything goes and any interpretation or practice can be called ‘Dhamma’ or ‘Buddhism’ if enough people buy into it for long enough, and have an imaginary lineage of transmission going back to the Buddha himself (but I digress). It’s my opinion that the most ‘valid’ interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka is the one which shows the greatest homogeneous integrity and uniformity with the least number of anomalies possible. And quite frankly, I just don’t see the commentarial magga separation of jhana and vipassana, based solely on its unique definition of jhana, as providing an integral magga. It offers up a fragmented magga whereby all suttas describing jhana as part of the methodology of that sutta must be discarded as pragmatic practice manuals unless one can achieve the level of absorption described by the Vis. M. system. This I believe is not only unfortunate, it is also canonically unsubstantiated (AN IX.36, AN V.28, MN 77, etc.). J: it is not a correct characterisation of the Visuddhimagga to say that it describes a meditation practice in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. No it’s not, it‘s just a brief sketch. But there’s still no evidence at all that the Visuddhimagga method was taught by the Buddha. (There are much more straightforward ways of interpreting the kasina practice.) And Ajahn Sona has written a thoughtful essay regarding the Vis. M. description of anapanasti as a jhanic practice in which he concludes that the Vis. M.’s description is based on a misreading of the Vimuttimagga and Patisambhidamagga. See full essay here: http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/nimitta.html J: I am not familiar with the term 'fixed samadhi', and would be >interested to know where it comes from. This is a translation of appana-samadhi. I don’t know precisely what this term means, but it seems that it’s a static state of concentration on a static object. Is this not correct? J: I would not say that what is described here is a commentarial > 'definition' of jhana. To come to the conclusion that jhana, as taught by the Buddha, necessitates the cessation of sensory form perception, the appearance of a counterpart sign, and a state of 'fixed samadhi,' one would have to accept one of two propositions: either (A) the Buddha considered these to be secret 'ear-whispered' instructions too esoteric for inclusion in the Sutta Pitaka, or (B) the Buddha was an inept and forgetful meditation instructor who always seemed to leave out these instructions when teaching. If you can't buy either of these two ridiculous ideas then the only remaining option is (C) these methods are the invention of a much later commentarial tradition that had taken a departure from the pragmatic experiential teachings recorded in the Sutta Pitaka. But to avoid any such erroneous interpretations of Dhamma, the Buddha, shortly before his death, told his followers to check any teachings they hear from even venerated elder monastics against what is stated in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka, and if these teachings don't accord with these two Pitakas, then they aren't to be accepted as the authentic Dhamma. He says: Suppose a monk were to say: "In such and such a place there are many elders who are learned, bearers of the tradition, who know the Dhamma, the Discipline, the code of rules: I have heard and received this from those Bhikkhus, . . . this is the Dhamma, this is the Discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, Bhikkhus, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the Discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas and the Discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Lord Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas and the Discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Lord Buddha, it has been rightly understood by the monk." -- Mahaparinibbana Sutta (tr. Walshe) Notice that on his deathbed he didn't say anything about comparing any later teachings to the authority of the Abhidhamma Pitaka when trying to assess their conformity to the Dhamma. Why is this? Because they Abhidhamma Pitaka didn't yet exist at the time of the Buddha's Parinibbana (~483 BCE). In fact, (as I’m sure you’re well aware) it wasn't even added to the canon at the second council which transpired ~100 years after his death (~383 BCE), but was only added at the time of the third council (~250 BCE). This means that any notions of planes (bhumis) and therefore, any possible interpretation that jhana means the cessation of sensory form perception because it employs the use of form sphere phenomena (rupavacara-dhamma), wasn't even included in the canonical oral transmission before this timeâ€"a full 230 years after the Buddha's death. It's hard to imagine just how long 230 years really is, but suffice to say it's a very long period of time, during which any number of deviations from the Sutta Pitaka could occur. But even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and Patisambhidamagga there's no mention whatsoever of counterpart signs (patibhaga- nimitta), or jhana as a state of fixed absorption (appana-samadhi). N: Yes, they are under the heading of ruupaavacara-kusala.m, Ch II. > ? 203: When, he may attain to the heavens of form, he cultivates the way > [thereto], aloof from sensuous desires, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by > the artifice of > water > fire > air > blue-black > yellow > red > white... > enters into and abides in the First jhana...> It does seem that the Abhidhamma as a whole, leans toward the commentarial interpretation of jhana with this entire development of avacara/bhumi, and no doubt they probably have explanations for the sutta descriptions of jhana mentioned above, that conforms with their understanding. S: There's a relevant controversy in the Kathavatthu under 'Hearing in > Jhana' N: The Points of Controversy debates about sound being a thorn for >jhana. It is explained that when in jhana one does not hear nor see. Yes it definitely does appear that the commentarial definition of jhana does go back as far as the third council at least. But for the above mentioned reasons, there’s no evidence that this was the Buddha’s jhana, and indeed in AN IX.36 and AN V.28/MN 77 we get quite a different description of jhana, which doesn’t involve cessation of sensory form perception. Of course, the proponents of the third council view would assert that their ‘right’ view was the basis for the holding of the third council in the first place, and they did so to reprimand/ expel heretical monastics. That’s their version of it anyway. As we know from the second council, there are two sides to every such story. N: (as I referred to) the example of Kalama Alara who did not hear the sound of five hundred Carts. This could be the sutta source for the commentarial interpretation of jhana, but again based on the above mentioned suttas, it doesn’t appear that such deep absorption is necessary, and obviously makes vipassana/panna/nana quite impossible. To conclude, Nina, Sarah and Jon (and anyone else reading this), I’m not trying to convince you that my position is ‘right,’ only attempting to stimulate dialogue, and examine the possibility that there may be more that one valid interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka. On the basis of such dialogue, it’s up to each individual for him/her self to make an informed decision as to the accuracy of any interpretation. As far as I’m concerned (and with all due respect), for many reasons (not just the definition of jhana) I have little faith in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and much less in the Mahavihara commentarial tradition. And if this tradition is what defines Theravada, then I’m certainly not a Theravadin, although I strongly believe that the Kammatthana Thai (and Western) forest teachers represent the closest connection to the pragmatism and renunciation of original Dhamma that I have yet come across, and that they are truly Thera. And so my faith follows their example, and for that I make no apologies. Metta, Geoff 44436 From: Matthew Miller Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:24pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa bupleurum Andrew: > It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our > bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? I consider the "serial mind" model to be way too simplistic. In the past, I have argued that the mind does indeed process several things in parallel. Here are some of the objections I raised in previous posts (most of these objections were "overruled" since they involved references to biology and physics and not just introspection or Buddhist scripture -- God forbid we should actually look at human physiology when discussing things like hearing and seeing!): 1. The combination of sense data to form a 'bound' percept: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40553 2. The durational nature of sound: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40608 and in this post, I expanded that argument with a consideration of low frequencies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40652 3. I also offered the following thought experiment: > You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced > with the picture. The image of an explosion, > say, comes slightly later > (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense and eyesense were not > being received in parallel, if there was flitting back and forth > from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if > they were out-of-sync? To these arguments, I would add more evidence from neuroscience. The "sense door" of vision, for example, is a complex, compound process. This is especially true in us primates, for whom sight is the most important sense. Besides the complex structure of the eye itself (rods, cones, fovea, etc), there are 31 different vision centers in the brain, each processing a different part of the input of the eye to form what we "see". The visual cortex itself includes the ventral stream which is associated with form recognition and object representation, and the dorsal stream which is associated with motion, representation of object locations, and control of the eyes and arms. Furthermore, individual neurons within the visual cortex are respoonsive to a subset of stimuli (e.g. vertical movement, or horizontal movement). If there is damage to any one of these various areas, we realize that the supposedly unitary experience of "eyesense" is actually compound, as selective parts of that experience deteriorate. In another post I described a phenomenon called "blindsight" in which a blind person is able to point to an object he cannot see. This demonstrates the complexity of vision and the error of relying solely on introspection to try and understand the senses: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 TG: > I think if you experiment with your own mind, you will find it > very hard, if not impossible, to pay attention to more than > one thing at once. I believe that the abhidhamma position on this is that the flitting of the mind from one sense door to the next is so rapid that we cannot perceive it by simple introspection. Am I wrong? Matthew 44437 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) buddhistmedi... Dear Kel - You gave an excellent answer : > Simple answer is cause I'm still a puthujjana :) > > - kel I always admire Ven. Sariputta, the great Arahant, as my second-to-the- Buddha-only teacher. And since you also have a great respect in him, let us discuss Anapanasati as expounded by this great Arahant in the Patisambhidamagga. Remember the last time we discussed Anapanasati, it wasn't finished. Of course, if you agree to do it, we'll go sloooowly. What do you say? Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > suggested by monks (e.g. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw) was labeled as > > miccha vayama. > > So I thought Ven. Sariputta words would be more authoritative. > > > I thought such discussion is a dead battery. So why do you want to > > jumpstart it? > > Simple answer is cause I'm still a puthujjana :) > > - kel 44438 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:50pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, sure. Just start the thread. I have some free time today and this weekend. 44439 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:51pm Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep christine_fo... Hello Tep, and all, While you are waiting for The Great Discourse on Causation to arrive from the bookshop, you may be interested in taking a look at this teaching on the Mahanidana Sutta. http://www.meditation.asn.au/teachings.html It is given by Patrick Kearney, who first introduced me to Theravada Buddhism in Brisbane and later at the Blue Mountains Insight Meditation Centre near Sydney. http://www.meditation.asn.au/patrick.html metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on > > hard-to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. > > If you have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, > > would you like to discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? > N: B.B. has translated it with its co: The Great Discourse on Causation, > BPS Sri Lanka, ISBN 955-24-0117-8.The best would be to order this > booklet. To read it and then some points could be lifted out. Heavy stuff! > T: I will get a copy of this book as you recommended and study it first. Although I already read the easy-to-find online version and the Thai version several times over a span of 10+ years, it might be better to discuss from the book you've recommended. 44440 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Anguttara Nikaya IX.34 Nibbana Sutta (^) Unbinding Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant." When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?" "Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear...smells cognizable via the nose...tastes cognizable via the tongue...tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure. "Now there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant. "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, is physically sensitive to pleasure, and enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the sphere of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of the infinitude of space, thinking, 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the sphere of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the sphere of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of nothingness, enters & remains in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the sphere of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is. "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant." 44441 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' / Anapanasati Discussion buddhistmedi... Dear Kel and interested members- Thank you for the partnership! The new thread will continue from what we left out last time. Let me review the background materials tonight in order to start the thread tomorrow morning. Well begin may not be half done in this case, but it will get the ball rolling right. Anyone who is interested in Anapanasati, please join us in this discussion series. Thank you much! Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, sure. Just start the thread. I have some free time today and > this weekend. 44442 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Chris, Nina and other members - Thank you very much for the Web link to Patrick Kearney's writings on the Mahanidana Sutta. I sure will study it over this weekend. When I am ready to discuss this sutta with Nina, please join us. Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, and all, > > While you are waiting for The Great Discourse on Causation to arrive > from the bookshop, you may be interested in taking a look at this > teaching on the Mahanidana Sutta. > http://www.meditation.asn.au/teachings.html > > It is given by Patrick Kearney, who first introduced me to Theravada > Buddhism in Brisbane and later at the Blue Mountains Insight > Meditation Centre near Sydney. > http://www.meditation.asn.au/patrick.html > > metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on > > > hard-to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. 44443 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for sorting out lokuttara right thought (samma sankappa) as vitakka that is absorption or integration of associated states in the object. It took several times of reading it before I could see where I went wrong :-)) Larry 44444 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > Doesn't this seem directed by sense of self and bound to be akusala? > Hi Kel, This is an ariyan's description of right endeavour. Therefore, we can know with certainty that no sense of a directing self is involved. Or are you suggesting a sense of self can be a conditioning factor for right endeavour? How could that be? Ken H > - kel > > > "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your > > reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, > > exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled > states > > that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states > that > > have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… > > for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development > > and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your > > reverences, is called right endeavour." 44445 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:56pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 168- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] When there is mindfulness of visible object which appears now, seeing which appears now, sound which appears now, hearing which appears now, or any other reality which appears now, right understanding of the eightfold Path is being developed and this is the most effective way to avoid akusala, to overcome it, to make kusala arise and to maintain kusala and bring it to perfection. At the moment of right mindfulness right effort performs its task of strengthening the kusala citta so that there is perseverance with the development of the eightfold Path. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44446 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa buddhatrue Hi Matthew, Matthew: I consider the "serial mind" model to be way too simplistic. James: It is hardly simplistic! It is the most complicated and quick process known to man. The Buddha said that he was hard pressed to come up with a good simile to describe how quickly the mind changes. It is unlike anything concrete in our experience. In my opinion, and not to be rude, you are looking at the process in an overly-simplistic manner. Matthew: In the past, I have argued that the mind does indeed process several things in parallel. James: No, the brain processes several things in parallel (the autonomic nervous system for example), but the mind doesn't process several things in parallel. Only one consciousness arises, persists, and perishes at a time. Buddhist meditation will help one to identify this process. Matthew: 3. I also offered the following thought experiment: > You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced > with the picture. The image of an explosion, > say, comes slightly later > (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense and eyesense were not > being received in parallel, if there was flitting back and forth > from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if > they were out-of-sync? James: All of your objections are similar to this one, and this objection fails to take into account how quickly the mind changes. Matthew, the mind changes much quicker than that movie even! We are talking quicker than nano-seconds! In the example you give, eye consciousness, ear consciousness, and mind consciousness, will all arise and perish, one after the other, very, very quickly to determine that the sound is not in synch with the picture. Those who don't have as clear attention, and the mind consciousness tends to chase after fantasies or trivia, would not notice that the sound and picture are out of synch until much later. By your standard, if several people have a functioning pair of eyes and functioning ears, they should each notice the out-of-synch experience at the same time, but that won't be the case because there is a more complicated process involved. Now, to digress a bit (so I don't sound too pro-Abhidhamma ;-) the Abhidhamma speaks of cittas which last a certain duration, how so many cittas last per rupa experience, etc., I don't know if I buy all of that. The Buddha said that it was difficult to come up with a simile to describe how fast the mind changes, and then here is the Abhidhamma not only describing it but describing it in mathematical precision. I believe that the mind is even more complex than the Abhidhamma describes, but the model of the citta is close enough to not be argued too strenuously. Matthew: To these arguments, I would add more evidence from neuroscience. The "sense door" of vision, for example, is a complex, compound process. This is especially true in us primates, for whom sight is the most important sense. Besides the complex structure of the eye itself (rods, cones, fovea, etc), there are 31 different vision centers in the brain, each processing a different part of the input of the eye to form what we "see". James: Again, these are matter related to the brain, not to the mind. Matthew: I believe that the abhidhamma position on this is that the flitting of the mind from one sense door to the next is so rapid that we cannot perceive it by simple introspection. Am I wrong? James: Yes and no: it cannot be perceived by `simple introspection', but it can be perceived by meditative introspection- just as the Buddha did (though I don't believe the Buddha was responsible for the Abhidhamma. See U.P. under "Abhidhamma-Origins" and imagine some posts which I and others wrote about this subject which should be there! ;-). Metta, James 44447 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread (330) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm This last bhumi is where we were born and now living. a)Who are we? b)Where did we come from before the rebirth in this current realm? c)Where are we going next in the next life or where are we going to be reborn after we die? Answer to a) We are no one. We are not a being. We are just nama and rupa. But we are viewed ourselves as manussa or human beings and this word 'human being' or 'manussa' is just a name. When we explore real Dhamma then we cannot find any being at all. This is the answer for 'Who are we?'. But conventionally we are are human beings and this will be exactly true in the conventioanl sense. Answer to b) We may have come from a) 4 apaaya bhumi or 4 woeful destinations b) human life and we are reborn again as a human being c) 6 deva realms d) from 11 rupa brahma realms leaving 5 ariya brahma bhumis e) 4 arupa brahma realms Answer to c) We may be going to be reborn in a) 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful destinations b) to this realm of human being again c) to 6 deva realms d) to all of 16 rupa brahma realms including 5 ariya brahma bhumis e) to all 4 arupa brahma realms. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44448 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >Considering that there are no suttas in which the Buddha instructs >bikkhus or lay people to practice the path of dry insight, why is there >so much emphasis on it these days and not so much on the jhanas? > > I think it's fair to say that any sutta that does not specifically refer to the attainment of the jhanas is a sutta that talks about the development of insight alone, and that would be the majority of suttas I'm sure. While the attainment of jhana was a lot more widespread in the Buddha's time than afterwards, it was nevertheless the exception rather than the rule, as far as I can gather. Actually, I don't read any sutta as being an 'instruction to practise' this way or that. However, when the Buddha was speaking to those who were capable of attaining jhanas as well as insight, he of course spoke in those terms, and he described in detail how jhana citta could be the basis for enlightenment, a greater achievement than enlightenment without jhana as basis. Jon 44449 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew (and Howard) Matthew Miller wrote: >Jon: > > >>>Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with >>>any of the kinds of kusala I have seen described. >>> >>> >Howard: > > >>All that I can tell you is that it leads to calm and into the >>jhanas. I know this first-hand. The calm and peace is clearly >>wholesome. >> >> > >This is an interesting question. Is it possible to have "calm and >peace" which is somehow *not* kusala? > > What is obviously possible is for there to be what appears to be calm and peace, and therefore kusala, but for those mind-states to in fact be akusala. Both 'calm and peace' and subtle attachment seem calm and are accompanied by neutral feeling, yet they are poles apart in terms of the development of the path. Do we know by direct experience the difference between moments of kusala and moments of (subtle) akusala as they arise in our life? Are we conscious of the subtle attachment that accompanies all the ordinary moments of seeing etc. that we would tend to take as being morally neutral? >By contrast, is it possible to >have pain and suffering that *is* kusala? > >An analogy from the medical field (where I work) would be certain >treatments (such as, say, chemotherapy) that cause suffering in the >short-term, but are ultimately "wholesome" (e.g. curative). Is there >a something similar in the theory of kusala/akusala? > > As far as I know, there is nothing in the texts that suggests that there needs to be akusala in order for kusala to develop. This also applies to those passages that may on a first reading sound like aksuala, because they describe something that for us would inevitablely involve akusala (e.g., clenching of teeth). True calm and peace cannot be developed other than by the arising of kusala of that kind in the first place. Concentration, however, is not an intrinsically kusala mental factor. It takes its moral quality from the consciousness with which it arises. Samatha is developed by virtue of the object being properly contemplated, not by virtue of the concentration involved. The act of concentrating on a neutral object is not a condition for the arising of kusala, to my understanding of the texts. Jon 44450 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan (and also Chris -- thanks for the link to the BB article) Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >Reading the Satipatthana sutta though (from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html), the very first practice that is recommended by the Buddha is: > >[1] " There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. > > Note these opening words beginning "There is a case where ..". Here the Buddha is describing a very particular kind of person: a monk, and not just any monk but one whose life is dedicated to the development of samatha (with breath as object) and who is already well developed in samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana (note the reference to 'setting mindfulness to the fore'). So when you say 'practice recommended by the Buddha', I think we need to realise that what follows pertains to a very select group of followers only. It is not a general recommendation for all and sundry to take up anapanasati as a means of developing insight. > > >This surely would lead to the development of jhana. > Jhana is indeed the context here: jhana as a basis for insight. But again, this is for the most highly developed of disciples. We should ask oursleves to what extent this sutta relates to us in our present circumstances and stage of development. >Apart from this, the rest of the sutta seems to advocate practices that are pure insight practices and may not lead to jhana. I don't have the experience to comment too deeply on this, however, it would appear that a study of whether the Buddha taught a process of pure insight as a way to arahantship would have to rely heavily on this sutta. > > Yes, I agree, with the same reservation as above, namely that what is described in the sutta are not 'practices' in the sense of techniques to be adopted, but actual attainments. Note that the section on the first foundation ('A. Body', i.e., rupa), comprises 6 sections (or 11, as the various stages to No. 6 are traditionally counted separately), of which anapanasati is just one. It is also worth noting that in the whole sutta the section on anapanasati in the only one that is associated with a specific posture. Jon Sutta text: " Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. " In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. 44451 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:02am Subject: Anapanasati Discussion, Part II. buddhistmedi... Dear Kel, Sarah, Jon and interested members - On 1/13/05 my last message (#40958/ Re: Jhanas) of the Anapanasati discussion (Part I) with Kel concluded that we had not converged to one agreed-upon "solution" yet. But it was a good beginning. > T: I am glad that you are interested in Anapanasati > Discussion, Part II. Yes, Kel, we will continue discussing > and expand it to include Nina's Series on this subject too. > I am hopeful that we will converge to a "point soltion" soon. Many thanks again to Kel, Jon and Sarah for providing the information about the Anapanasati2 file, which contains Nina's series of writings from her long study of the Anapanasati Sutta and the Co. in The Visuddhimagga. Some highlights of this series are extracted and presented below as the relevant background information for our Part II discussion. The focus of this second discussion is the Venerable Sariputta Thera's Anapanasati discourse in the Patisambhidamagga. We will also revisit the impressive Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani and try to draw a final conclusion. I don't know when this discussion may end, but it will. Highlights from Anapanasati2 File ------------------------------------------------- # 26973, 27146 N: We read in the Co. that the monks were very interested in anapana sati. That is why the Buddha dealt with the other meditation subjects in short, but with mindfulness of breathing in detail. The Co now refers to the Visuddhimagga for details about this subject. N: The mindfulness associated with that contemplation of the body, which mindfulness is itself the establishment, is the establishment (upa.t.thaana or pa.t.thaana). The development, the increase, of that is the "development of the foundation (establishment) of mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body" (Pm. 261) N: Vis. VII, 173: Herein, he trains: he strives, he endeavours in this way. Or else the restraint here in one such as this is training (sikkha) in the higher virtue, his consciousness is training in the higher consciousness, and his understanding is training in the higher understanding (Patisambidhamagga I, 184)." Tep's Note: Many of the Anapanasati comments in the Visuddhimagga were based on the Patisambhidamagga, e.g. Pm. 261 and Pm. I, 184 above. Therefore, by reviewing this Nina's series we are also previewing the Patisambhidamagga at the same time. # 27161 N: We say that breath is a body. Further, the twenty five classes of rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana)....nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from the mental body). Of these, breathing is a certain body because it is included in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). # 27400 N: As regards the second tetrad (marked V-VIII), the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 226) comments: (V): He trains thus , that is, making happiness (piti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. N: As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhåna, because of the experiencing of the object. N: After the jhanacitta has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. #27439: N: The Vis. quotes from the Path of Discrimination with regard to the experience of happiness with non-confusion: N: The realization of the characteristic of impermanence can only occur when the stages of insight knowledge have been developed, beginning with tender insight, as I said before. Thus both jhana and insight have been developed here. As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: # 27483 N: The Co then states: # 27561 N:The Visuddhimagga states: (IX): In the third tetrad the experiencing of the (manner of) consciousness must be understood to be through four jhanas. N: As regards the words in the third tetrad: (X): I shall breathe in...breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness, the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 231) states that there is gladdening in two ways, namely through concentration and through insight. N: We read: How through concentration? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness (piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it, by means of the happiness associated with the jhana. How through insight? After entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhanas accompanied by happiness he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and to fall, thus at the actual time of insight he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it by making the happiness associated with jhana the object. (XI): Concentrating (samaadaha.m) the (manner of) consciousness: evenly(samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics... # 27581 N: When he can have jhanacitta for many moments, there are no cittas of the sense sphere and no bhavangacittas in between. His concentration on the meditation subject is stable. The word evenly applies to jhana, when there is no disturbance by sense impressions. When he emerges from jhana and he can develop insight, there is momentray concentration with the citta that realizes the happiness of jhana as a dhamma arising and falling away. N: As regards the clause: (XII) I shall breathe in... breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness, the Visuddhimagga explains that this also must be understood as pertaining to jhana as well as to insight. In the first jhana one is liberated from the ³hindrances, although they are not eradicated, and in each subsequent stage of jhana one is liberated from the jhana-factors, specific cetasikas which are developed in order to eliminate the hindrances. The jhana-factors are subsequently abandoned when one is no longer dependent on them and one is able to attain a higher and more subtle stage of jhana. After emerging from jhana the jhanacitta is comprehended with insight. # 27840 N: The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, this tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight. As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, (XIII): I shall breathe in...breathe out contemplating impermanence, the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) states: .. Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is contemplation of materiality, etc., as ³impermanent in virtue of that impermanence... # 27863 N: As regards the clause: (XIV): I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating fading away, the Visuddhimagga states that there are two kinds of fading away, namely: fading away as destruction which is the ³momentary dissolution of formations (conditioned realities) and absolute fading away which is nibbana. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold contemplation that it can be understood of him. He trains thus, I shall breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away. # 27934 N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away (viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment (pa.tinissagga). We read further on: : because one who proceeds by the method, etc., is one who looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief. Therefore, it should be understood that # 28215 N: We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijja), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> At the end of the Series Nina concludes that Anapanasati bhavana is a vehicle for jhana masteries which support vipassana: N: "If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana". Respectfully, Tep =========== 44452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Geoff Thanks for a very comprehensive and well articulated reply. You've covered every statement I made (and more ;-)). I will try to get back to you on most or all of the points discussed, but will do so in separate posts. For now I would just like to make a general comment or two in the light of how this thread has developed. I think the main point you have been pursuing to date (whether in jhana the object can be a sense-object, instead of a mental image as is generally believed*) is an interesting one, but I think there's a danger of losing sight of the overall main issues, such as: 1. Does it appear from the suttas, taking both the occasions described and the actual teachings given, that enlightenment was on occasion attained without the (mundane) jhanas having first been attained? 2. More importantly, I think, and regardless of one's view on Q.1, do the teachings contained in the suttas have anything to say about the development of the insight at this moment now, as we read this post or compose our reply, or is it said that unless certain other practice/development has been undertaken there's no chance of awareness or insight arising? I think our reading of individual suttas or passages must take account of questions like this; we should not let isolated passages or individual 'issues' drive our interpretation of the whole Tipitaka. On my reading of the texts, while kusala is always to be preferred to aksuala, one moment is as good as another when it comes to the development of awareness and insight. Jon *It is this point, rather than the broader one of the need for the jhanas in order to attain enlightenment, that I was suggesting was unique to TB, to my knowledge. sunnaloka wrote: >Hi Nina, Sarah, Jon and everyone, > >J: I think it's true to say that there's no actual inconsistency > > >>between the commentarial statements and the sutta texts on this >> >> >point > >Well the commentarial position doesn’t seem to represent very >well at >all some of the most graphic descriptions of jhanic experience given >in the suttas. In AN V.28 we read (also MN 77): > >“There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from >sensuality, >withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the >first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied >by directed thought and evaluation. *He permeates and pervades, >suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born >from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by >rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* > >"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath >powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again >and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, >moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless >not drip; even so, *the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very >body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is >nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born >from withdrawal.* This is the first development of the five-factored >noble right concentration.â€? (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) > >This clearly indicates that the meditator is very much aware of the >body in jhana, and that the primary object of the first jhana is piti >and sukha arising from the absence of the five hindrances > >... > > 44453 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:05am Subject: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Azita, Tep, Chris, Betty,(Phil, Vince) & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) Many of us enjoy quiet times for reflection and practice. For example we may like to sit quietly, contemplate, read or listen to the Dhamma. We may feel that without specially putting aside some time, having some discipline or making a special effort of this kind, we’ll become lazy and forgetful of the teachings or the priorities in life. However, we were reminded that thinking in this way merely indicates a clinging to self and a clinging to results. Whether we are in front of the computer, at work, the theatre, in a quiet place or even seemingly ‘being busy doing nothing’, there can be awareness with right effort at such times. If there’s any attempt to make restrictions or impose limits, it will lead to trouble because of the idea of self. In order to really understand our accumulations, we have to know our present inclinations at any time, even whilst we’re thinking they should be different. When we were in India we discussed the example of the lady who had had a stroke and the point was to stress that even if we are immobilized or suffering from a serious illness, there can be awareness at these times. In other words, we should feel encouraged rather than discouraged that there are no limits to when sati (awareness) and panna (understanding) can arise. The Buddha taught for 45 years in order that we might really learn to understand ourselves, i.e to know the present namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). If there is no awareness, it’s impossible to understand them because ‘I’ is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises. The ‘I’ thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we’re enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. When we don’t mind at all what the present dhamma (reality) is or whether the present tendencies are kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome), there is no hindrance to awareness. So often, however, ‘I’ would like to be a good person and to be taken to be such a one by others. We forget that we’re still in the cycle of samsara, even if we become very good. Avijja (ignorance) is still there and it doesn’t see the attachment to self. It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to ‘feeling low’ or ‘alone’ or discouraged. At such times we don’t wish to see the problem as being a ‘clinging to self’ and even less to see the ‘silabbataparamasa’ (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. We were reminded that: *“When we feel lonely, it must be atta (self). It’s atta, so it’s lonely” When there is the development of sati, everything becomes clearer including such disturbing moments. However, it takes courage to fight lobha with wisdom. There are bound to be difficulties, but there can be understanding rather than trying to do something with an idea of self which leads to more and more unpleasant feelings as a result of such wrong efforts. In this connection the 4 kinds of patipada (practice) were mentioned. We can read about them in DN, Sampasaadaniiya Sutta, (Walshe tr) and know that for most of us the first kind of practice is very familiar: *** “Also unsurpassed in the Blessed Lord’s way of teaching Dhamma in regard to the modes of progress, which are four: -painful progress with slow comprehension, [dukkhaa pa.tipadaa dandhaabhi~n~naa] -painful progress with quick comprehension [dukkhaa pa.tipadaa khippaabhi~n~naa] -pleasant progress with slow comprehension, [sukhaa pa.tipadaa dandhaabhi~n~naa] -pleasant progress with quick comprehension. [sukhaa pa.tipadaa khippaabhi~n~naa] “In the case of painful progress with slow comprehension, progress is considered poor on account of both painfulness and slowness. In the case of painful progress with quick comprehension, progress is considered poor on account of painfulness. In the case of pleasant progress with slow comprehension, progress is considered poor on account of slowness. In the case of pleasant progress with quick comprehension, progress is considered excellent on account of both pleasantness and quick comprehension. This is unsurpassed teaching in regard to the modes of progress....” ***** These same four kinds of progress are elaborated on in AN, bk of 4s, 162. The sutta is included in B.Bodhi’s ‘Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’. As most of us ae concerned with the first type, let me add the relevant additional details on it here: “And what is the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he often experiences pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear in him to be tender – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their tenderness he sluggishly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge.” ***** We can learn to have courage and joy when developing right understanding instead of feeling disheartened. We don’t need to think about the future, ‘my’ progress or how long the path is. Only the present moment exists and there is no self to change it in anyway. Slowly, the development of understanding and awareness can become our habitual tendency and what seemed so difficult and complicated becomes more evident with such progress, just as the Buddha taught. Metta, Sarah ======= 44454 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:11am Subject: re: Phil's letter from Japan sarahprocter... Letter from Phil ******************* Hi Sarah, and all Hello again A new computer with a giant monitor that is already making my feeble eyes hurt. It's been a very good period for Dhamma study, listening a lot to the tapes that Ken was kind enough to send me, in addition to reading. I'll have a lot of questions and comments based on the tapes, I imagine. > I'm glad you and Naomi have settled well into your new `high- class?E> neighbourhood and superior apartment. It's really a great area. Ironically, though we know live in Tokyo, there's great cycling and lots of pretty places to become attached to. Since my precious comments about passing through the posh department store, nothing has changed. I still pass through it. Sometimes there is desire re the fragrances and pretty sales assistants, sometimes there is a friendly feeling akin perhaps to metta, sometimes there is irritation about something or other, usually there is thinking thinking thinking about Dhamma. Still so much thinking. Of course this applies to everywhere I go. > Phil wrote: > > One question I'd like to ask. This is Nina, writing to Howard: "It only > > makes sense that I need to listen and read dhamma and on and on. With > > so > > much avijja and craving what would I find when I seek to practice? The > > feeling of urgency points to the present moment, and if there is no sati > > and panna what can be done? Nothing can accelerate the process of > > development except when sati and panna does arise.?E> > > > I think this is very important. When I see how gross my lobha is at > > times, > > should there not be samvega, should there not be an arousing of a sense > > of > > urgency? If there is, there is, but even when there is, when there is > > so > > much ignorance, what will be gained from urgency? > .... > S: I think it's important to stress that the sense of urgency has to be > with right understanding. For example, I was talking on the phone to a > friend whose parents died recently. She appreciates that we should make > the most of our lives while we can, but for many people this means we > should see the urgency to enjoy our lives. Ph: I was thinking about this today, actually. Enjoy our lives, or "make something" of our lives. I think we Westerners in particular have inherited the tendency to place too much emphasis on this one lifetime as something that we should be sure to wrap up fruitfully before dying. One lifetime as a package of accomplishments or failures. While I can only appreciate it intellectually, I've really come to appreciate the way of seeing life and death with every citta, with every moment. Otherwise there is such clinging to results. On the other hand, people will say that this lifetime we were born as humans in a time when the Buddha's teaching exists in the world, and that we must make good use of that rare opportunity to study Dhamma. There are so many conditions that must be fulfilled for us to be able to study Dhamma. As good students of the Dhamma, > we know better, but so easily we may think `we?Eor `self?Eshould urgently > act to get rid of our defilements. I'm not at all sure that this kind of > urgent mission by `self?Eis any better as it's likely to just lead to more > attachment to Self, as I see it. Well, I'd agree with that. I used to think that the risk of accumulating some wrong attachment to self was worth taking if the gross defilements could be removed through urgent practices, but I've seen things differently recently. A moment of really seeing things as they lie, and knowing it to be conditioned nama and rupa, even intellectually, is so refreshing, so un-burdening. I really like something Nina said in a post to someone to encourage him away from a view that all cittas could be seen or obseved, or soemthing. "Alas, not possible. But I should not say alas because it is a good thing. It is not us, it is nama and rupa" or words to that effect. I will quote the exact words someday. > .... > > I am now rereading the CMA, but am wondering where pariyatti, patipatti > > and pativedha fall in as dhammas? I won't be able to read the answer for > > now, but I hope the question will lead to a little fruitful discussion. > > It sounds like a very important point! :-) > ... > S: Panna (understanding) of different degrees, accompanied by other mental > factors of course. Pariyatti is right intellectual understanding with > concepts of dhammas as objects. For example, now we are talking about the > characteristic of viriya. If there is some right understanding it's > pariyatti, but not patipatti unless the characteristic appears. So > patipatti refers to moments of the direct understanding of namas and > rupas. Pativedha refers to higher insights into realities. (look up under > `pariyatti......?Eand also `samvegga...?Eand maybe `viriya?Ewhen you > return to U.P:-). Thanks. One thing I enjoyed on the tapes was talk about the three rounds of the 4 noble truths. It sounded similar to the 3 Ps. I'll be bringing it up. Time for dinner. Thanks for the letter, Sarah, and thanks again Ken for those tapes! Phil 44455 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:28am Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and DSG Members - Sarah, I truly appreciate your kusala cetana/metta and sincerity that have driven you to write the message #44453. I know you think you have to pull 'someone' from a deep hole of miccha ditthi. There are several great points you have made, but there some controversial points as well. Let me categorize your points in two groups as shown below. Next, I'll explain why I agree or disagree with these points. This kind of disagreement arises mainly from our views which are fundamentally the same (because we study the same Buddha's Teachings), but our individual interpretations are not. Our interpretations can distort the reality we think we see. I. Sarah's Great Points -------------------------------- 1. In order to really understand our accumulations, we have to know our present inclinations at any time, even whilst we're thinking they should be different. 2.If there is no awareness (of mental and physical phenomena), it's impossible to understand them because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises. 3. When we don't mind at all what the present dhamma (reality) is or whether the present tendencies are kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome), there is no hindrance to awareness. 4. When there is the development of sati, everything becomes clearer including such disturbing moments. However, it takes courage to fight lobha with wisdom. 5. We don't need to think about the future, `my' progress or how long the path is. Only the present moment exists and there is no self to change it in anyway. II. Sarah's Controversial Points -------------------------------------------- 1. Whether we are in front of the computer, at work, the theatre, in a quiet place or even seemingly `being busy doing nothing', there can be awareness with right effort at such times. 2. If there's any attempt to make restrictions or impose limits, it will lead to trouble because of the idea of self. We should feel encouraged rather than discouraged that there are no limits to when sati (awareness) and panna (understanding) can arise. 3. The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. 4. It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. A Reminder : ------------------ Are the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states wrong because "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises"? "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen…for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your reverences, is called right endeavour." [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy (viriya)) in Sarah's message # 44413.] Tep's Response to Sarah's Points -------------------------------------------------- I.1 We must be quite advanced in the practice to be able to be aware and know our mental states "at any time": this ability requires both mindfulness(sati) and thorough comprehension(sampajanna). You have to be an Ariya-puggala. I.2 Not only awareness but also knowing the "All" (sabba dhamma) the way they really are (yatabhutanana-dassana). Then we will realize that 'this is not mine, this is not I, this is not my atta'. [MN 149] I.3 True. When we can watch and know all dhammas as 'just dhammas' with no 'self' involved, then it is yathabhuta-nana-dassana. It is also samma-ditthi, according to DN 9 : "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". But we have to be noble disciples first. I.4 With yathabhuta-nana-dassana you don't have to fight lobha -- because lobha has been abandoned. "However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing & seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither- pleasure-nor-pain -- as it actually is present, one is not infatuated with the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain." [MN 149] II.1 For a worldling (puthujjana) like you and I, when we are in a quiet place, busily doing nothing, our minds just wander. There is little awareness and little discernment, our minds simply follow objects (armamanas) through the sense doors. We can easily become sleepy! But if we are Ariya-puggalas, then we are able to overcome hindrances and what you were talking about is true. II.2 "Restrictions and imposed limits" are for the purpose of restraining the sensing faculties in order to perfect the indriya-samvara-sila. "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). Also, please study the following sutta (AN X.60). Is this sutta wrong "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises"? "There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill-will. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is called the perception of abandoning". II.3 Remember what the Buddha told his monks to sleep only 4 hours a night and dedcicate themselves to medition the rest of the night? "And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? There is the case where a monk during the day, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night [dusk to 10 p.m.], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night [10 p.m. to 2 a.m.], reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up [either as soon as he awakens or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night [2 a.m. to dawn], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is how the monk is devoted to wakefulness". [MN 53: Sekha-patipada Sutta, The Practice for One in Training ] II.4 You dont feel "low", or "discouraged, or sad, if you follow the four foundations of mindfulness practices of the Satipatthana Sutta. You would put aside greed and distress with reference to the world. You would achieve samma-ditthi. You would overcome hindrances! "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness." Kind regards to all, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, Azita, Tep, Chris, Betty,(Phil, Vince) & All, > > (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > 44456 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > What is obviously possible is for there to > be what appears to be calm > and peace, and therefore kusala, but for > those mind-states to in fact be > akusala... > > As far as I know, there is nothing in the > texts that suggests that there > needs to be akusala in order for kusala to develop. Of course, no one has suggested that there *needs* to be akusala in order for there to be kusalsa. The question is, if there exists apparent kusala which is in fact subtle akusala, does there also exist the reverse -- apparent akusala which is in fact kusala? I have wondered about this before, ever since I read Nina's works on abhidhamma, in which it seems that kusala is always described as being pleasant. Is there any painful or unpleasant kusala, that might be mistaken for akusala? Examples? Matthew 44457 From: "mnease" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Tep and Sarah, Hope you don't mind my butting in. First, Tep, I really appreciate your very civil and well-researched messages and citations. I also think the latter are perfectly to the point. Would you agree that in all your citations, the Buddha's instructions were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, would you agree that it's a fair question as to whether or not instructions to professional, full-time yogis observing the paatimokkha are entirely pertinent to the practice of modern laypeople? Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. Thanks in Adavance, mike 44458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: calm nilovg Hi Howard, May I butt in? op 15-04-2005 18:12 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had > definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just as > well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration > DOES lead to calm. N: I think that we should check our own cittas. What kind of calm is experienced, is it calm together with detachment? It is essential to find this out. Concentration arises with every citta and it focusses on the object. Thus, as you know already, it can be akusala. There may be a subtle attachment to being away from the world. I would like to elaborate more on kusala. Each kusala citta is accompanied by the cetasikas of calm, calm of mental body (the cetasikas) and calm of citta. Also by alobha, detachment. One does not think of oneself. A few examples taken from your own life. When you take an insect and put it outside to save its life, there is kusala citta with detachment, and also a degree of calm. When you visit a bereaved family there is kusala citta with detachment and calm. When you write kind letters to someone who is in trouble, there is kusala citta with detachment and calm. At such moments you just think of the other person, not of yourself. Such moments of calm are very short and the characteristic of calm is not very noticeable. Immdiately there are seeing and hearing, and clinging to visible object and sound, even though you do not notice it. That is why wise people of old developed samatha, and their aim was detachment from sense objects. The citta that begins to develop samatha should be right from the start: it should be kusala citta with alobha, adosa and amoha or paññaa. When kusala citta arises there is also confidence in the benefit of kusala, confidence in the Buddha's teaching. All this is necessary to begin in the right and proper way. You do not need paññaa to count 1,2,3,4 and just concentrate. What should paññaa know? It should know exactly when the citta is kusala citta with calm and detachment and when there is clinging. There is no need to think of the result that is jhana, if the practice is right it will lead to it. Counting 1,2,3,4, can this be with kusala citta? One has to check for oneself. If it happens without choosing an object, it can be an object of satipatthana, just for a moment. Thinking is a dhamma, it is nama, not self. When moving the lips in counting, there are also rupas that may appear: hardness, motion, pressure. These are just a few thoughts. Nina. 44459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sankhaara, sankhata. nilovg Dear Tep, op 15-04-2005 03:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...:> > N: Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, > compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that > arise because of conditions. ... Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma > which depends on other dhammas that condition its arising. > > T: The above definition sounds to me more like sa.nkhaata dhamma > than sa.nkhaara dhamma. > > Since sa.nkhaara means "combine or put together", why doesn't it > follow that any sa.nkhaara dhamma cooks up (prung teng), or puts > together ingredients to make other dhammas? For example, vitakka > and vicara are vaci-sa.nkhaara because they form spoken words. > Here spoken words are cooked up by vitakka and vicara, therefore > they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. > -------------- N: I see by your question that you think of kaaya-sa.nkhaara (bodily function of breathing), vacii-sa.nkhaara (verbal function) and citta-sa.nkhaara (mental function). This classification is another classification and here sankhaara is used in a different sense. See B. Dictionary, Ven. Nyanatiloka. I go on to your other Q: > N: Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the > dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions > fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must > fall away. ...Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from > being conditioned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. > > T: The above definition of sa.nkhata dhamma is so broad that it is > confusing. Except Nibbana, all dhammas are sa.nkhata dhamma > because they arise and fall away. Thus all sa.nkhaara dhammas, > which depend on other dhammas that condition their arising, are also > sa.nkhata? N: Yes, that is correct. Both sa.nkhaara dhammas and sa.nkhata dhammas include all citta, cetasika and rupa, conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away. Thus the only difference in these terms is a slight nuance. All of them are conditioning and are conditioned. > > T: This is the most confusing point that I discussed above. Now, how > should I understand that vitakka and vicara that condition words and > the conditioned words themselves are both sa.nkhaara and > sa.nkhaata dhammas at the same time? N: See above about vacii-sankhaara. Words: what is it: citta, cetasika or rupa? No. Sound is rupa, thus, a sankhaara dhamma and sa.nkhata dhamma. It arises and falls away. Word is a concept. T: Again, since all dhammas, > except Nibbana, are subject to arising-and-passing-away > characteristic and because of conditions, does it follow that they > perform two roles at the same time : i.e. they arise because something > else conditions them to arise (thus, they are sa.nkhaata dhammas), > and because of their arising phenomena other dhammas may arise as > a consequence (hence they act as sa.nkhaara dhammas)? N: Not two roles at the same time, it need not be so complicated. Seeing arises because of several other dhammas, such as the cetasikas that are co-arising, and also because of past kamma, and also because of the rupa eyebase, and the rupa that is colour. And also because of the eye-door adverting-consciousness which it succeeds. Seeing also conditions the accompanying cetasikas, and it conditions thinking about what is seen later on. Both terms, sankhaara and sa.nkhata dhamma can be used for seeing, and the term sa.nkhata dhamma just reminds us that what has been conditioned, what has arisen because of conditions, must fall away. They refer to the same dhammas. Nibbaana is the asankhata dhaatu. Nina. 44460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, You listen to modern commentators and you check whether you find it helpful, whether they make you better understand the teachings. Evenso you could do this with regard to the ancient commentators. You do not have to believe them but you could just check a few points. You do not even have to think: this is commentary, this is Abhidhamma. op 15-04-2005 23:08 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > Well the commentarial position doesn't seem to represent very > well at all some of the most graphic descriptions of jhanic experience given > in the suttas. In AN V.28 we read (also MN 77): > “There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from > sensuality, ... . *He permeates and pervades, > suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born > from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by > rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* N I can understand the confusion. When in jhana he does not feel the body, but the jhanacitta conditions such bodily phenomena. The Atthasalini explains the very subtle bodily pleasant feeling that is conditioned by the third jhana and helps us to understand the text. First of all the word body is also used for the mental body, the cetasikas. Text Co: Nina. 44461 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Matheesha, Jon, and everyone, My reading of AN IX.34 accords with what I maintain about jhana. The five sensory forms (i.e. strands of sensory form) are not the 'object' attention is focused on in jhana, rather a neutral sensory form (in the case of anapanasati the tactile sensation at the nostrils in steps 1 and 2, followed by full body tactual sensation as experienced from within, in steps 3 and 4) may be the object of samatha which gives rise to jhana, but the object of jhanic consciousness (jhana-citta) is rapture/happiness (piti) to begin with in the first jhana (step 5 of anapanasati), after which one intentionally focuses on/attends to pleasantness (sukha) which underlies piti (step 6 of anapanasati). The purpose for doing so is to continue to let go of 'coarser' mental factors by attending to more subtle mental factors, and thereby continue to settle and unify the mind, and let go of directed thought (vitakkha) and discursive thinking (vicara). In the first jhana the piti and sukha experienced are 'born from withdrawal' from the five hindrances and external forms by focusing within. The tactual sensation experienced is not dependent upon external contact, rather it is internal, and as such, is not what would commonly be classified as 'tactile sensation.' Nevertheless I see no statement in AN IX.34 which indicates that all experience of the five sensory forms must cease in the first jhana, rather all attention to perception of them must cease by remaining attentive to piti or sukha. The primary object of the second jhana (as I understand it), is more refined piti to begin with, followed by intentionally attending to more refined sukha. All sukha are mental phenomena, but here the focus is explicitly on mental sukha (step 7 of anapanasati) resulting from the settling of vitakka and vicara. This is experienced as pleasant 'expansiveness' and is quite subtle. The piti and sukha experienced in the second jhana are 'born of composure,' and as such, are the result of the settling of vitakka and vicara. The mind is already very unified at this stage. Eventually piti ceases altogether, and along with it 'mental' sukha. Here one enters the third jhana, the focus of which is 'physical' sukha (i.e. 'physically sensitive to pleasure' in the jhana formula) remaining in the absence of piti and mental sukha. It is experienced as a very deep and profound feeling of unshakable universal well-being. But of course this physical pleasantness is still a mental phenomenon in a technical sense, and as such, is a conditioning factor for one's ongoing mental unification (step 8 in anapanasati). In time even this deep feeling of well-being settles out and one enters the fourth jhana -- 'purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain,' in the jhana formula (steps 9 -- 12 in anapanasati if one so wishes). But even at this highly refined stage of mental unification there is no cessation of the experience of sensory form (although it's possible at this point, but as such, signals the attainment of 'perception of the sphere of infinite space'). This is clearly indicated in AN V.28: "And furthermore, the monk has his theme [usually TB's translation of nimitta] of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-considered, well-tuned (well-penetrated) by means of discernment. "Just as if one person were to reflect on another, or a standing person were to reflect on a sitting person, or a sitting person were to reflect on a person lying down; even so, monks, the monk has his theme of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-pondered, well-tuned (well-penetrated) by means of discernment. This is the fifth development of the five-factored noble right concentration." (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) The statement that the meditation theme (which could be any of the four anupasana's) is 'well attended to ... by means of discernment' (i.e. panna), shows that at this point (steps 13 to 16 of anapanasati), after the attainment of the fourth jhana, the paramattha dhammas of the five khandhas, are still experienced and can (and should) be taken up as the theme of contemplation, in order to discern the three characteristics -- while still 'in' jhana. Actually as AN IX.36 states, one can turn toward anupassana/vipassana at any point after attaining the first jhana (and while 'in' jhana), and as MN 111 states, all mental phenomena should be seen with discernment (panna) even while attending to the ?'samatha' aspect of jhana. In this way vipassana strengthens samatha and samatha strengthens vipassana, and both are factors of right samadhi which is jhana. J: Does it appear from the suttas, taking both the occasions described and the actual teachings given, that enlightenment was on occasion attained without the (mundane) jhanas having first been attained? If your question here is: Is enlightenment only attainable in jhana? And clearly (IMO) the answer is no. There are examples of disciples becoming arahants while listening to a discourse, and presumably not in jhana at that moment. But if your question is: Is enlightenment possible without jhana, that is, without the fully integrated bhavana of samatha and vipassana as taught in the Sutta Pitaka? And IMO the answer would be no, it's not. The stable ongoing maintenance of the lokuttara paths and fruitions, requires the full integration of sila, samadhi, and panna as detailed in the Vinaya Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. J: More importantly, I think, and regardless of one's view on Q.1, do the teachings contained in the suttas have anything to say about the development of the insight at this moment now, as we read this post or compose our reply, or is it said that unless certain other practice/development has been undertaken there's no chance of awareness or insight arising? My whole point has been that vipassana/panna should be developed at all times -- including during the formal sitting practice of jhana -- and that proper jhana is impossible without it. This IMO is the clear mesage in the Sutta Pitaka. J: we should not let isolated passages or individual 'issues' drive our interpretation of the whole Tipitaka. If you think that this is my perspective your not understanding me at all. My whole 'thesis,' insofar as I have a 'thesis,' is based on the conservative principle of sutta interpretation that (A) remains as close to the meaning of what is stated as is possible given the larger picture of how the same thing is stated in other sutta contexts (and which is experientially verified to be productive and skillful); and (B) that sees the larger picture of the path by comparing many suttas and seeing how they all fit together so as to interpret terms like jhana based on the most universally applicable definition, which is verified by how the term is used in other contexts in the Sutta Pitaka, i.e. what images, etc, are employed, and what is described as the mental factors of jhana and the mental development undertaken 'in/during' jhana, and which thereby shows the fewest anomalies and inconsistencies of said definition, if indeed such anomalies exist. J: It is this point [if whether in jhana the object can be a sense- object, instead of a mental image as is generally believed], rather than the broader one of the need for the jhanas in order to attain enlightenment, that I was suggesting was unique to TB, to my knowledge. I can't speak for Ajahn Thanissaro of course, but I think I may have given the wrong impression of my own position regarding the object of jhana (by the awkward way I may have initiated this query) as I'm reading your understanding of what I've been saying. I hope the first part of this post (which was also stated in previous post) clarifies that it's my opinion that piti, sukha, etc, as detailed in jhana formula and described with graphic imagery in AN V.28, is the 'object' of jhana, and although I can't experientially confirm this regarding kasina jhana, I would propose that irregardless of counterpart image, piti and sukha would be main object to be experientially developed in kasina meditation also. And I would think (although I've never spoken with TB) that he would quite possibly say this also (regarding anapanasati that is). Metta, Geoff 44462 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Re:sankhaara, sankhata. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - It surprised me that there were two different defintions/meanings of sankhaara and sankhata dhammas. Let me do my homework - study more - and come back to chat a little bit with you. Boy, Nina. You must have the memory as big as an elephant's. Thank you for being my Dhamma friend. Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 15-04-2005 03:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...:> > > N: Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, > > compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that > > arise because of conditions. ... Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma > > which depends on other dhammas that condition its arising. > > > > T: The above definition sounds to me more like sa.nkhaata dhamma > > than sa.nkhaara dhamma. > > > > Since sa.nkhaara means "combine or put together", why doesn't it > > follow that any sa.nkhaara dhamma cooks up (prung teng), or puts > > together ingredients to make other dhammas? For example, vitakka > > and vicara are vaci-sa.nkhaara because they form spoken words. > > Here spoken words are cooked up by vitakka and vicara, therefore > > they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. > > -------------- > N: I see by your question that you think of kaaya-sa.nkhaara (bodily > function of breathing), vacii-sa.nkhaara (verbal function) and > citta-sa.nkhaara (mental function). This classification is another > classification and here sankhaara is used in a different sense. See B. > Dictionary, Ven. Nyanatiloka. > I go on to your other Q: > > N: Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the > > dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions > > fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must > > fall away. ...Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from > > being conditioned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. > > > > T: The above definition of sa.nkhata dhamma is so broad that it is > > confusing. Except Nibbana, all dhammas are sa.nkhata dhamma > > because they arise and fall away. Thus all sa.nkhaara dhammas, > > which depend on other dhammas that condition their arising, are also > > sa.nkhata? > N: Yes, that is correct. Both sa.nkhaara dhammas and sa.nkhata dhammas > include all citta, cetasika and rupa, conditioned dhammas that arise and > fall away. Thus the only difference in these terms is a slight nuance. All > of them are conditioning and are conditioned. > > > T: This is the most confusing point that I discussed above. Now, how > > should I understand that vitakka and vicara that condition words and > > the conditioned words themselves are both sa.nkhaara and > > sa.nkhaata dhammas at the same time? > N: See above about vacii-sankhaara. > Words: what is it: citta, cetasika or rupa? No. Sound is rupa, thus, a > sankhaara dhamma and sa.nkhata dhamma. It arises and falls away. Word is a > concept. > T: Again, since all dhammas, > > except Nibbana, are subject to arising-and-passing-away > > characteristic and because of conditions, does it follow that they > > perform two roles at the same time : i.e. they arise because something > > else conditions them to arise (thus, they are sa.nkhaata dhammas), > > and because of their arising phenomena other dhammas may arise as > > a consequence (hence they act as sa.nkhaara dhammas)? > N: Not two roles at the same time, it need not be so complicated. Seeing > arises because of several other dhammas, such as the cetasikas that are > co-arising, and also because of past kamma, and also because of the rupa > eyebase, and the rupa that is colour. And also because of the eye- door > adverting-consciousness which it succeeds. Seeing also conditions the > accompanying cetasikas, and it conditions thinking about what is seen later > on. > Both terms, sankhaara and sa.nkhata dhamma can be used for seeing, and the > term sa.nkhata dhamma just reminds us that what has been conditioned, what > has arisen because of conditions, must fall away. They refer to the same > dhammas. > Nibbaana is the asankhata dhaatu. > Nina. 44463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep nilovg Hi Tep, my input cannot be very great. The Vis. Tiika takes up a lot of time. So, I hope others will help with this study. As to anapanasati, the post is so long and I feel sorry for the readers. Would very, very short posts (as Sarah does for Cetasikas) not be more effective? Nina. op 16-04-2005 01:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > Thank you very much for the Web link to Patrick Kearney's writings on > the Mahanidana Sutta. I sure will study it over this weekend. > > When I am ready to discuss this sutta with Nina, please join us. 44464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) kusala and akusala. nilovg Hi Matthew, Kusala citta can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Not by unpleasant feeling. Unpleasant feeling accompanies only citta rooted in aversion, thus only akusala citta. Painful kusala? Well, helping can be very tiring, but we still do it. Then there are kusala cittas alternated with akusala cittas. But we can be sure that akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas. It is hard to precisely know the different moments. Nina. op 16-04-2005 20:09 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@...: > I have wondered about this before, ever since I read Nina's works on > abhidhamma, in which it seems that kusala is always described as being > pleasant. Is there any painful or unpleasant kusala, that might be > mistaken for akusala? Examples? 44465 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: calm upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/16/05 2:21:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > May I butt in? > op 15-04-2005 18:12 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had > >definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just > as > >well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration > >DOES lead to calm. > N: I think that we should check our own cittas. What kind of calm is > experienced, is it calm together with detachment? It is essential to find > this out. > Concentration arises with every citta and it focusses on the object. Thus, > as you know already, it can be akusala. There may be a subtle attachment to > being away from the world. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I dodn't expect my mindstates to be free of attachment for a long, long time, Nina! --------------------------------------- > I would like to elaborate more on kusala. Each kusala citta is accompanied > by the cetasikas of calm, calm of mental body (the cetasikas) and calm of > citta. > --------------------------------------- Howard: True calm doesn't come until the 3rd or 4th jhana. Even the 2nd jhana is filled with bliss! ------------------------------------- Also by alobha, detachment. One does not think of oneself. A few> > examples taken from your own life. When you take an insect and put it > outside to save its life, there is kusala citta with detachment, and also a > degree of calm. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. ------------------------------------ When you visit a bereaved family there is kusala citta with> > detachment and calm. When you write kind letters to someone who is in > trouble, there is kusala citta with detachment and calm. At such moments you > just think of the other person, not of yourself. > Such moments of calm are very short and the characteristic of calm is not > very noticeable. Immdiately there are seeing and hearing, and clinging to > visible object and sound, even though you do not notice it. That is why wise > people of old developed samatha, and their aim was detachment from sense > objects. The citta that begins to develop samatha should be right from the > start: it should be kusala citta with alobha, adosa and amoha or paññaa. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Nina we cannot wait for conditions to be perfect. Constant practice of sila as best we can is sufficient preparation. ------------------------------------- > When kusala citta arises there is also confidence in the benefit of kusala, > confidence in the Buddha's teaching. All this is necessary to begin in the > right and proper way. > You do not need paññaa to count 1,2,3,4 and just concentrate. What should > paññaa know? It should know exactly when the citta is kusala citta with calm > and detachment and when there is clinging. There is no need to think of the > result that is jhana, if the practice is right it will lead to it. > Counting 1,2,3,4, can this be with kusala citta? One has to check for > oneself. If it happens without choosing an object, it can be an object of > satipatthana, just for a moment. Thinking is a dhamma, it is nama, not self. > When moving the lips in counting, there are also rupas that may appear: > hardness, motion, pressure. > These are just a few thoughts. > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44466 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 0:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, N: I can understand the confusion. When in jhana he does not feel the body, but the jhanacitta conditions such bodily phenomena. The Atthasalini explains the very subtle bodily pleasant feeling that is conditioned by the third jhana and helps us to understand the text. The fact that there is still a very subtle bodily pleasant feeling means that one still feels/experiences the body in the third jhana (the explanation of mental and physical sukha in Psm. Commentary on Breathing gives details regarding distinction -- which I propose are addressing jhana resulting from anapanasati). Not to ‘toot my own horn,’ but I’m basing everything that I’m saying on my own experience and on the experience of other dedicated long term meditators whom I know personally, and comparing all said experience to what is stated in the suttas. I’ve been at this for a fairly long time, during which I’ve done extensive individual retreat and also lived in residence at a Buddhist monastery for almost 2 yrs. where the daily regimen was 4 1/2 hrs of mandatory group sitting daily, with 8 1/2 hours mandatory group sitting every Sunday, and 6 1/2 hours mandatory group sitting daily for 2 months of annual retreat. I’ve experienced the quasi-paranormal mental phenomena of colored light and intense feelings of rapture/bliss that are truly otherworldly. But none of that represents a sign of attainment of jhana. It’s all just adventitious conditioned mental phenomena, which can definitely signal that one is close to formless meditation (which IMO is what Ajahn Brahmavamso ?sp? calls jhana), but in no way signals the arrival of stable mental unification that the suttas call jhana. Such phenomena can appear every sitting for months or even years -- and then one day they can simply be gone -- that’s how conditioned and therefore unstable all such quasi- paranormal experiences are. But jhana, as the suttas describe it, and as I recognize in my own experience, and as others recognize in their own experience, is a fairly reliable and repeatable experience given the appropriate conditions of environment, productive sila, and ongoing panna, etc., are present. And it has been my experience and the experience of others I know, that jhana in no way necessitates the cessation of sensory form experience -- awareness of one’s environment is definitely reduced to what one’s present object is -- but one is in no way totally oblivious to what’s going on. A good analogy which everyone can identify with is that of being so engrossed in a book that someone could enter or exit the room, or even talk to you, and you have no awareness that they’ve done so. But if someone were to hit you over the head, that would certainly get your attention. When the suttas and contemporary teachers describe their own experiences, or that of others, who are in a state of total oblivion (Ajahn Brahmavamso tells of one meditator who was presumed to be dead by people around him and taken to the hospital morgue -- only to come out of absorption and wonder how he got there ... etc..) such cases are IMO experiences of formless meditation and not form jhana, at least as presented in the Sutta Pitaka. Yes, there’s a place for ancient commentary, I’m very much fond of the Commentary on Breathing in the Patisambhidamagga for example, but as I don’t very often practice kasina meditation (I have in the past, but never to the point of counterpart sign), the use of that particular methodology as a paradigm for jhana doesn’t relate to my own experience or the way jhana is commonly described in the suttas. It therefore represents an anomaly, and not the main methodology for attaining jhana, which I maintain, is anapanasati. Maybe it’s not appropriate to discuss jhana based on one’s own expereince, but listening to others do so has certainly helped my practice, and I discuss these matters not to puff myself up, but to stimulate discussion of how one can experientially relate to what is stated in Sutta Pitaka, and how one can also measure if the commentarial descriptions are realistic, or theoretical and quite possibly elitist -- based on absolutist idealism and not on pragmatic every day realism. Metta, Geoff 44467 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Mike, Sarah and other DSG members - Thank you Mike for the encouragement. You have a valid point that is not easy to argue with. Mike: (1) Would you agree that in all your citations, the Buddha's instructions were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? (2) If so, would you agree that it's a fair question as to whether or not instructions to professional, full-time yogis observing the paatimokkha are entirely pertinent to the practice of modern laypeople? (3) Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. Tep: (1) It is true that two of my citations, MN 53 and AN X.60, "were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight". But the other citations, i.e. MN 149 and DN 22 are not depending on absorption (jhana) as the requisite. Indeed, there is a sutta that leaves the Path opens for sukka-vipassakas, it is Anguttara Nikaya 4.170. In this sutta, Venerable Ananda said that monks and nuns who informed him that they had attained arahantship all declared that they did so by one of the four categories, i.e. there are only these four ways to arahantship: A. Samatha followed by vipassana: - after which the path is born in him/her - B. Vipassana followed by samatha- after which the path is born in him/her-: C. Samatha and vipassana together, simultaneously - after which the path is born in him/her, and D. The mind stands fixed internally until it becomes one-pointed - after which the path is born in him/her. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Tep's Note: D. is the case of citta-based practitioners. Another more general sutta, SN XXXVI.1, doesn't specifically mention paatimokha sila or jhana. This is for people who are vedana-based : "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings and their origin , knows whereby they cease, and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead. And when the end of feelings he has reached,such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana." Tep's Notes: Knowing in 5 ways are 1. by way of the Truth of Suffering; 2. by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering; 3. by way of the Truth of Cessation; 4. by way of the Truth of the Path ; 5. through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). (2.) You have a solid reasoning here - the world of paatimokha yogis who are fully dedicated to Nibbana is totally opposite to that of the "modern laypeople". But if you really want to get the hell out of this world as quickly as possible, in my opinion the yogi's way is the only way. (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. By the way, the word "bhikkhus" means both laypeople and monks who are 'disciples of the Noble ones'. This is what I understand. "Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was siting there, the Blessed One said to him: When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: Animosity http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html ----------------------------- "Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " AN V.179 Gihi Sutta, The Householder ------------------------------- Mike, I hope the above research may encourage you to have more faith in practicing according to the Teachings to become a Sotapanna in this very life. Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah, > > Hope you don't mind my butting in. First, Tep, I really appreciate your 44468 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of professional authors, and I always value it highly. You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah will tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant information from several posts, each of which is already compact. The Mahanidana Sutta project will soon keep me busy. Respectfully, Tep ====== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > my input cannot be very great. The Vis. Tiika takes up a lot of time. So, I > hope others will help with this study. > As to anapanasati, the post is so long and I feel sorry for the readers. > Would very, very short posts (as Sarah does for Cetasikas) not be more > effective? > Nina. > op 16-04-2005 01:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > Thank you very much for the Web link to Patrick Kearney's writings on > > the Mahanidana Sutta. I sure will study it over this weekend. > > > > When I am ready to discuss this sutta with Nina, please join us. 44469 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati Discussion, Part II. kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, Nice summary and doesn't appear to have anything to add :) - kel 44470 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:47pm Subject: Reality and the Mind robmoult Hi All, As I walk by the florist, a rose in the window catches my eye. What is the reality of this moment? For a very small fraction of a second, a visual image (ruparammana, visible object) impinges upon my eye (cakkhu-pasadarupa, the sensitive part of the eye). The visual image is like a photograph of the scene in front of me. At this moment, there is no judgment and no analysis; there is only the bare process of seeing (cakkhu- vinnana, eye-consciousness, part of the sensing process). Note: One must be careful not to associate the term "mind" with a controlling self; the "mind" is a series of instantaneous mental states, each of which arises naturally. Each mental state happens because conditions support its arising. The visual image is passed to the mind (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi, conformational mental process which immediately follows the sensing process). The mind links this visual image with the most recent past visual image (samudayagahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the visual image as a whole). The mind then recognizes colours (vannasallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the colour), delineates a thing from the visual image (vatthugahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the thing in the visual image) and then recognizes the thing (vatthusallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the thing). The mind then grasps the name for the thing (namagahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the name). The mind of an English-speaking person would grasp the name of "rose" at this moment. Following this, the mind links the name with past experiences (namasallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the name). This is thinking about the thing. From this point onwards, the mind is dealing with a mixture of the present visual image and past associations with things having the same name. Modern science provides interesting insights into how the mind works. There was a case of a man who suffered brain damage in a car accident. After the accident, the man was able to recognize his mother but he insisted that she was an imposter. Doctors discovered that the portion of the brain that recognized objects (naming) was working properly, but the link between the "naming" part of the brain and the part of the brain that stored the emotions associated with the name (thinking about) had been damaged. So when the patient recognized his mother but did not have the expected emotions associated with this person, the patient concluded that this must be an imposter. After the mind has "named" and "thought about" the thing, a sense of "I" is inserted into the situation ("I like roses") and a complex process of mental proliferation (papanca, mental proliferation which obscures the nature of reality as layers of clouds obscure the features of the moon) follows... "My wife likes roses"... "I should buy a rose for my wife"... "I imagine myself giving the rose to my wife"... "I imagine the smile on my wife's face"... In a fraction of a second we go from a visual image (something that is real) to imagining the smile on my wife's face (something that is not real). The visual image was real. However, once the mind started working on it, this reality got distorted. As explained in the first Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Root of Existence), we are all subject to this kind of distortion and it is not until we attain the first stage of sainthood (Sotapanna) that we uproot this tendency. The Mulapariyaya Sutta uses the term "uninstructed worldlings" for those who have not yet attained the first stage of sainthood. The Honeyball Sutta (MN 18) explains, "What one names, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." In other words, naming, thinking about and mental proliferation are subjective activities and subject to distortion. Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon itself, covering over the true nature of the reality, layer by layer. The Vipallasa Sutta (AN IV.49) lists three ways in which the mind distorts reality; distortion of perception, distortion of thinking and distortion of opinions. These three types of distortion build upon each other. For example, in the dark, a man spontaneously perceives a coiled up rope as a snake (distortion of perception). The man then assumes that what he saw was a snake (distortion of thought). Finally, he is convinced that what he has seen is a snake (distortion of opinion). A distortion of opinion becomes a latent tendency, capable of distorting subsequent experiences. So how does this theoretical description help us in daily life? If your objective is to attain sainthood, then you need to develop three types of full understanding; understanding of the known (nataparinna, the ability to differentiate between the real visible image and the concepts which follow), examination (tiranaparinna, the ability to see the three characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self) and abandoning (pahanaparinna, attachment to mental objects is eliminated). This kind of full understanding cannot be learned from books, it must be rooted in direct experience. The theoretical description above is like a map to guide us as we travel the path ourselves. The theoretical description above is the recipe; it is not the food. Even if your objective is not as lofty as attaining sainthood but merely to make this round of existence more pleasant, reflecting on this theoretical description can also have benefits. As we consider this theoretical description, we can conclude that more than 99% of what we take as "reality" was added by our own mind. Our mind flows according to our habits and our latent tendencies. Understanding this theoretical description can help us to weaken our attachment to our own point of view and help us to recognize the validity of another, perhaps even conflicting, perspective. The mind cannot be controlled (there is no "self" to control the mind), but the mind can be trained. This theoretical description lays bare the nature of the mind and thereby supports efforts to train the mind. Metta, Rob M :-) 44471 From: "mnease" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Again Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results I'm impressed as always by your scholarship and courtesy-- > Thank you Mike for the encouragement. You have a valid point that is > not easy to argue with. You've done well, I think. Hope it's OK if I snip my previous comments and reply to your responses in line: > Tep: (1) It is true that two of my citations, MN 53 and AN X.60, "were > given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight". But the > other citations, i.e. MN 149 and DN 22 are not depending on > absorption (jhana) as the requisite. Thanks for the correction. It's true that the Mahaa-salayatanika Sutta (MN 149) doesn't state explicitly that the bhikkhus addressed there were jhaana practioners, and that tranquillity and insight are said to arise in tandem in the present examples. I would speculate that, in this context, tranquility is synonymous with absorption, but of course that's just my speculation. By my reading of the discourses, the bhikkhus and bhikkhunis of the Buddha's day spent a great deal of their time in what might be translated as 'formal practice' or 'meditation', seated, walking and so on. Anyway the main point of the discourse seems to be the importance of direct knowledge, i.e. insight. As for the Mahaa-satipa.t.thaana Sutta (DN 22) the description of the meditation is very similar to other discriptions of what I take to be jhaana cultivation: "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long." I've been told that this is an example of insight and tranquility being cultivated together. I'm not sure that the difference between the two is always cut and dried, but the object here--breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept, so this also sounds like samatha or jhaana bhaavanaa to me. Whether either or both, though, in this description it's clearly being done by a bhikkhu. > Indeed, there is a sutta that leaves > the Path opens for sukka-vipassakas, it is Anguttara Nikaya 4.170. In > this sutta, Venerable Ananda said that monks and nuns who informed > him that they had attained arahantship all declared that they did so by > one of the four categories, i.e. there are only these four ways to > arahantship: > > A. Samatha followed by vipassana: - after which the path is born in > him/her - > B. Vipassana followed by samatha- after which the path is born in > him/her-: > C. Samatha and vipassana together, simultaneously - after which the > path is born in him/her, and > D. The mind stands fixed internally until it becomes one-pointed - after > which the path is born in him/her. "Then there is the case where a > monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the > corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his > mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & > concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Yes, in the Yuganaddha (congruous; harmonious; connected to a yoke) Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya 4.170) the two seem plainly to be 'in tandem'. That Aananda here referred to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis specifically is beside the point of the discourse, I think, which is the development of tranquility and insight together. I have no problem with this, by the way, for laypeople. > Tep's Note: D. is the case of citta-based practitioners. > > Another more general sutta, SN XXXVI.1, doesn't specifically mention > paatimokha sila or jhana. This is for people who are vedana-based : > > "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his > mind collected, he knows the feelings and their origin , knows whereby > they cease, and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead. And > when the end of feelings he has reached,such a monk, his thirsting > quenched, attains Nibbana." > > Tep's Notes: Knowing in 5 ways are 1. by way of the Truth of Suffering; > 2. by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering; 3. by way of the Truth of > Cessation; 4. by way of the Truth of the Path ; 5. through the full > extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). > > (2.) You have a solid reasoning here - the world of paatimokha yogis > who are fully dedicated to Nibbana is totally opposite to that of > the "modern laypeople". But if you really want to get the hell out of this > world as quickly as possible, in my opinion the yogi's way is the only > way. Well, that's the issue, isn't it? I have tried the yogi's way unsuccessfully and am among those who think that this may well no longer be an option--even for fully ordained people. The fact that many laypeople in the texts entered the various paths without being (at least professional) yogis does suggest to me that the yogi's way is not the only way. And I am obviously skeptical of amateur yoga for laypeople as a way out of sa.msaara. So I think we simply have a difference of opinion here, though I certainly respect yours and am well aware that my own may be wrong. > (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become > Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. Thanks, Tep, I have read them. I don't have them indexed though--could you cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of trees or attend retreats and so on. > By the way, the word "bhikkhus" > means both laypeople and monks who are 'disciples of the Noble > ones'. This is what I understand. Yes, this is well born out by the texts I've read, including the abhidhamma. The context is important, though; in the citations we've been discussing I think the Buddha was actually referring to ordained bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. > "Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, > on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As > he was siting there, the Blessed One said to him: When, for a disciple > of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is > endowed with the four factors of stream entry; and when, through > discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble > method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; > animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; > states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a > stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, > headed for self-awakening!' " > > Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: Animosity > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html > > ----------------------------- > > "Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay > followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down > to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. > Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, > that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he > obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental > abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about > himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the > hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad > bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again > destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " > > AN V.179 Gihi Sutta, The Householder Thanks, I've always found Anathapindika a most inspiring figure, especially for a layman. I would be delighted to think that I'm in his class of lay-disciple but I think that would be very rarified company indeed. > Mike, I hope the above research may encourage you to have more > faith in practicing according to the Teachings to become a Sotapanna > in this very life. Tep, I thank you for your excellent research and for a challenging exchange of opinions. I thank you also for your good wishes and hope that you'll achieve stream-entry in the course of this existence too, by the only means possible, that of the eightfold path. mike 44472 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep jonoabb Hi Tep (and others) Glad to see you've revived the (unfinished) Anapanasati series. I'm sure the discussion to follow will be very useful. I think the summary materials you posted earlier are very useful, and I have kept a copy for future reference. Perhaps you can raise a question or two on particular parts that interest you. Is there anything you find controversial? Or post just one of the summaries at a time, for discussion, (or copy out extracts from the Psm text bit by bit for discussion). If you keep it to 'bite-sized' pieces, we can all snack along together ;-)) Looking forward to this series, and also your Mahanidana series. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: > >Dear Nina - > >Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of professional >authors, and I always value it highly. > >You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah will >tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant >information from several posts, each of which is already compact. > >The Mahanidana Sutta project will soon keep me busy. > > >Respectfully, > > >Tep > > 44473 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Comparing ... Conceit christine_fo... Dear all, I was discussing Conceit recently - and understand that the Buddha's teaching is that any comparison is a form of conceit, whether superior inferior or equal, as opposed to the everyday version that Conceit is 'blowing one's own trumpet'about one's achievments, successes or status. But after yesterday,it has occurred to me that sometimes making comparisons may be beneficial. A story: Yesterday was Saturday here in Brisbane, and I collected my daughter for shopping and brunch into the city. We had the usual enjoyable time buying a few things, trying on clothes, chatting, laughing and eating together. I had serendipitously come across a CD containing Jeff Buckley singing his hauntingly beautiful version of Hallelujah, after only hearing it again that morning on a radio programme - as well as finding a book I had been looking for for ages. I felt quite cheerful and optimistic, a change from the recent sadness over Rusty. Afterwards, I dropped my daughter off at her home, and after travelling a kilometre or so, decided to pull over and put the Jeff Buckley song in the CD player. The package containing the CD (three disc set) the book, and a few other purchases wasn't in the car. Sudden mood change to shock and anxiety. Rang daughter on the mobile - she didn't have an extra parcel, and we realised that it had probably been left in the food court of the major shopping centre where we had had lunch. This was 20 kilometres away, crowded with Saturday shoppers - there had been hundreds of people in the food court ... doom and gloom took over completely. We expressed a negative view of the likely honesty of individuals in the Food Court and what they were likely to do with over a $100 with of goods I'd left behind. (*We* of course would hand them in, but ....). Then I had a 'brilliant' thought - there was another major shopping centre on the way to my home - only a further 8 kilometres - and there was the identical-chain shop where I had found the CD and the book. I could at least buy them again. Relief, satisfaction, joy. Drove there, parked, wandered the length of the Centre - only to find the shop that had been there for eighteen years had closed down two weeks before. Hopelessness, feeling victimised by , sad again, and generalised irritation. Poor me. I rang the original major shopping centre, spoke to Customer Service - and they said they had all my purchases, handed in intact by someone. Delight, joy, relief, and shame at my previous judgmental attitude. So I drove in, parked, collected the goods, expressed my gratitude, and feeling exasperated now at the loss of so much time, I drove back on the Freeway to come home. Feeling totally washed out by the intensity and range of emotions that had overwhelmed me in the hour and half previously. I was in the fast lane with the metre high concrete barrier between me and the three lanes of high speed traffic going the other way. Suddenly there were fire trucks, ambulances, tow trucks, police and three lanes of unmoving traffic on the other side of the barrier. There had been an accident some time previously - the traffic in my lane slowed suddenly with screeching brakes as people tried to have a look. I was two metres from paramedics with a body on a stretcher, obviously deceased, being placed in the back of the ambulance. The unmoving traffic stretched for 6 kilometres - the accident must have occurred within minutes of me travelling in the identical lane on my way into the city collect the 'lost' goods ... how trivial, embarrassingly self-centred and pointless were "my" concerns and "my" precious feelings about books and CD's and inconvenient things that happen to "me"..... compared with this horror or death and injury and grief happening to other individuals and families ... this person had started out just like me, to go to the city for shopping, with no thought that this was their dying day ...just like me. And just as he is, so shall I be ... Perhaps not all comparisons are odious ... metta, Chris 44474 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of professional > authors, ============== Dear Tep and all, You might not know that Nina never recieves any money for any of her numerous books. (Nina never told me this but I know from her publisher). Robertk 44475 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:25pm Subject: Essential & Crucial...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What the Blessed Buddha actually said & did: The unsurpassable blissful advantage gained by thorough perusal of these 3 ancient text collections lasts more than this life... Not much else in this petty world give such lift!!! The ancient and authentic Sacred Buddhist Scriptures are: The Long Discourses of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya. 1996. Walshe http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=1212 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya. 1995 Nanamoli: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html http://www.wisdompubs.org/products/086171072X.cfm http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=6024 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.2000. Bodhi. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=10553 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For more serious study of the 2488 years old sacred Buddhist texts: All the original sources are at The Pali Text Society: http://www.palitext.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >>TM aside, though, let's consider further the practice you describe here, >>because it relates to the question of jhana. Are you suggesting that >>the training of the mind in this manner would be an instance of kusala? >>Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with any of >>the kinds of kusala I have seen described. You mention other >>appropriate conditions. What do you have in mind here? >> >>Jon >> >> >... > At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had >definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just as >well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration DOES >lead to calm. > > Thanks for sharing your own experiences. As you know, I place considerable importance on the scriptural basis of things. I know of no support in the texts for the idea that concentration on a neutral object leads to kusala, so I'd be interested to hear of any references that you or others may know of. Jon 44477 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Geoff Thanks once again for a comprehensive reply. > > >J: Does it appear from the suttas, taking both the occasions described >and the actual teachings given, that enlightenment was on occasion >attained without the (mundane) jhanas having first been attained? > >If your question here is: Is enlightenment only attainable in jhana? >And clearly (IMO) the answer is no. There are examples of disciples >becoming arahants while listening to a discourse, and presumably not >in jhana at that moment. But if your question is: Is enlightenment >possible without jhana, that is, without the fully integrated bhavana >of samatha and vipassana as taught in the Sutta Pitaka? And IMO the >answer would be no, it's not. The stable ongoing >maintenance of the lokuttara paths and fruitions, requires the full >integration of sila, samadhi, and panna as detailed in the Vinaya >Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. > > In the first part of your answer above, you mention the examples in the suttas (of which I think there are many) of disciples becoming arahants while listening to a discourse, and presumably not being in jhana at that moment. But, if I have understood you correctly, you take the view that those same disciples must have attained mundane jhana (even though there is no indication of this in the suttas in question either), and I think you see this as a matter of doctrine. I'd be interested to know the passages that proclaim this doctrine: is it the fact that samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, or are there other specific passages also? >J: More importantly, I think, and regardless of one's view on Q.1, do >the teachings contained in the suttas have anything to say about the >development of the insight at this moment now, as we read this post or >compose our reply, or is it said that unless certain other >practice/development has been undertaken there's no chance of >awareness or insight arising? > >My whole point has been that vipassana/panna should be developed at >all times -- including during the formal sitting practice of jhana -- >and that proper jhana is impossible without it. This IMO is the clear >mesage in the Sutta Pitaka. > Yes, 'at all times', then we agree on this point, and also have some common ground for discussion ;-)) So, to return to my example of the present moment, what would you see as being the development of vipassana/panna as one is reading this post or composing a reply; or what passages from the texts do you see as addressing this occasion/situation? > > > A quick question on your other theme of the object of jhana consciousness. >I can't speak for Ajahn Thanissaro of course, but I think I >may have given the wrong impression of my own position regarding the >object of jhana (by the awkward way I may have initiated this query) >as I'm reading your understanding of what I've been saying. I hope >the first part of this post (which was also stated in previous post) >clarifies that it's my opinion that piti, sukha, etc, as detailed in >jhana formula and described with graphic imagery in AN V.28, is >the 'object' of jhana, and although I can't experientially confirm >this regarding kasina jhana, I would propose that irregardless of >counterpart image, piti and sukha would be main object to be >experientially developed in kasina meditation also. > Thanks for explaining this, and my apologies for not reading carefully everything you have said (there's been quite a lot of ground covered in the last 2 days or so ;-)). The idea of the so-called 'jhana factors' as being the *object* of jhana is one I have not come across before. Where exactly do you find this stated in the texts, and is it said what happens to the object that was the object of samatha bhavana up to the time of jhana consciousness arising (e.g., the kasina, the reflection, or whatever)? Jon 44478 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:09am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 169- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Questions i Which cittas are not accompanied by adhimokkha? ii Can adhimokkha arise in a sense-door process? iii Can viriya be akusala? iv Viriya is saòkhåra dhamma. Why did the Buddha exhort people to strive for wisdom although there is no self who can put forth energy? v What is right effort of the eightfold Path? vi Which are the proximate causes for right effort? vii How can right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? viii At which moment is right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? ix What is the object which right effort of the eightfold Path experiences? ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 44479 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Nina, Connie & James), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah > will > tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant > information from several posts, each of which is already compact. ... S: No, I don't have any techniques - I think you're the expert here in this regard:-). The way you summarise the points and organise them as you did in response to my Musings8 post is highly commendable and very useful. (I really appreciated your detailed response a lot and look forward to getting back to it when I have time.....for some friends here, I'm sure the entire post was 'controversial' to put it politely, so I was glad you agreed with some points:-). I think Nina was just referring to the short extracts from 'Cetasikas' which don't involve any special techniques. Perhaps as Jon suggested, you can just post one of your extracts from the anapanasati series at a time with any of your own comments after Nina's for further discussion. Or any other way you like - the point is just that it is such a difficult subject and most of us need to go slowly:-/ > The Mahanidana Sutta project will soon keep me busy. > Mahanidana Sutta - If you have time to look at U.P. under 'Dependent origination', 'Sankhara', 'Vinnana', 'Avijja' and I forget what else, you will find quite a lot of posts on the sutta with commentary details, parts of BB's intro,etc. Another possibility is to search for 'Mahanidana' in www.dhammastudygroup.org. Connie, if you're not too busy, could you help fish out the U.P. posts as you did with Nina's anapanasati series or better still, join in the discussions? I think RobM, Chris and others were also planning to discuss more on D.O., so this might help kick-start those threads too... Tep, I think it's also very helpful to just discuss one term at a time, like you're doing with sankhara and sankhata....Like with anapanasati, most of us need to go slowly. Metta and thanks again for your excellent response to Musings8 - I assure you, I'm just learning as I write. Metta, Sarah p.s James (or anyone else) - why not consider opening a file with your own alternative set of 'James's U.P.' (or any other name)in whatever format you like? If you do so, I'd suggest you just need to keep the total file size relatively small(like the U.P. size, for example) as space is limited and larger files get removed from time to time. ======== 44480 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:16am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - Not accepting any money from the publishers of her "numerous books" is a proof that Nina devotes her life to the Dhamma - and that is very admirable! Thank you for telling us. Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > > Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of > professional > > authors, > ============== > Dear Tep and all, > You might not know that Nina never recieves any money for any of her > numerous books. (Nina never told me this but I know from her publisher). > > Robertk 44481 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (Jon, Nina, Connie, James and others) - Thank you very much for the kind comments about my reply to your Musing8 post. One nice thing about your response is that it is free from 'this is my point, that is me' and such quality is beautiful. You wrote, "Perhaps as Jon suggested, you can just post one of your extracts from the anapanasati series at a time with any of your own comments after Nina's for further discussion. Or any other way you like - the point is just that it is such a difficult subject and most of us need to go slowly:-/ ". I warmly accept Jon's suggestion with appreciation -- without any question, it is a very good advice. I thank you both for your trust and will always cooperate with you and your team for the benefit of DSG members. So I will keep in mind the following points : -- Discuss one term at a time -- Make a message short (space is limited) -- Search for other posts for clues and details -- Have team spirit (listen to others in the team) Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (Nina, Connie & James), > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah > > will > > tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant > > information from several posts, each of which is already compact. > ... > S: No, I don't have any techniques - I think you're the expert here in > this regard:-). > 44482 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:24am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Jon (Sarah, Chris, Nina) - It is a relief to me that you don't mind about my lengthy Anapanasati2 summary! Your suggestion below is very logical, practical and totally acceptable : Jon: Perhaps you can raise a question > or two on particular parts that interest you. Is there anything you > find controversial? Or post just one of the summaries at a time, for > discussion, (or copy out extracts from the Psm text bit by bit for > discussion). If you keep it to 'bite-sized' pieces, we can all snack > along together ;-)) > Thank you for energizing the team spirit in me, Jon. Please feel free to tell me anytime when something doesn't go right. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (and others) > > Glad to see you've revived the (unfinished) Anapanasati series. I'm > sure the discussion to follow will be very useful. > 44483 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Great to know you're back in cyberland:-):-) > Letter from Phil > ******************* > Hi Sarah, and all > > Hello again > > A new computer with a giant monitor that is already making my > feeble eyes hurt. It's been a very good period for Dhamma study, > listening a lot to the tapes that Ken was kind enough to send me, in > addition to reading. I'll have a lot of questions and comments based > on the tapes, I imagine. ... S: We always look f/w to your posts. Thx for the other feedback. Just briefly now - you sent me a few notes off-list and I tried to respond to your queeries and computer probs, but my two emails didn't go through to your add, so I'm letting you know here. This post of yours I forwarded to the list as you saw, but I haven't seen the 'Cetasikas' one you mentioned here or in my account. Hope you get it all sorted out. You asked about the recent Bkk recordings - it'll be sometime. We've been further editing the India 2001 recordings which will be put on the website next - Jon, Nina and others with A.Sujin -v.good. also the last Sri lanka ones mostly edited. I'll announce it. Welcome back! Metta, Sarah ====== 44484 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/17/05 4:17:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsabbott@... writes: > Thanks for sharing your own experiences. > > As you know, I place considerable importance on the scriptural basis of > things. I know of no support in the texts for the idea that > concentration on a neutral object leads to kusala, so I'd be interested > to hear of any references that you or others may know of. > > Jon > ======================== You may recall from a long time back our "spiral" discussions. There was a chain of conditions, with calm a condition for concentration and concentration a condition for wisdom, and you may recall how the chain is really a spiral, with each factor, ever enhanced, feeding back to strengthen the "earlier ones", and that includes concentration supporting an increase in calm. Also, Jon, concentration is a major condition for attaining the jhanas (characterized by increasing calm - that, BTWm is why it is called "samatha bhavana"! ;-). Moreover, Jon, from first-hand knowledge, I know that sustained concentration on neutral or pleasant object unquestionably induces calm - there is no more doubt of that than there is of the inability to breathe leading to distress, or lack of food leading to hunger. As to concentration on a neutral object leading to kusala, well, there certainly is textual reference to many such objects leading to wholesome phenomena, including great calm. Such objects include kasinas and all the other various meditation subjects listed by Buddhaghosa, and definitely include the breath (which is certainly "neutral"). Jon, were you to give meditation on the breath sensations around the nose/upper lip a true trial, I have no doubt, unless your scepticism is even stronger than I think, that you will quickly and easily observe calm and peace grow in your mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44485 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:16am Subject: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Larry, Nina,Tep, Al & All - Letter from B.Bodhi in response to mine (see my email at end of post) ************************************************************ Subject: yes, a confused note Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:18:24 -0400 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your e-mail. I reviewed note 9 on page 1400 of CDB of the Buddha in the light of your comments. I did not consider them the least bit disrespectful and appreciate your open and honest criticism. I think you would also appreciate it if I remain faithful to my own position even though we will at certain points, as in the past, have to "agree to disagree." I freely admit the note is confused, both grammatically and conceptually. The reason it is confused is that I am mixing up ideas, expressions, and modes of thought derived from different periods in the evolution of Theravada Buddhist thought. Unlike traditional Theravadins, I don't regard the Abhidhamma treatment of the aayatanas to have been identical with that of the early Nikayas, but to be the product of an attempt at systematization that evolved over several generations. This attempt culminated in a conceptual system marked by a comprehensive range and an extremely high degree of precision, but it led to significant changes in the original conception of the aayatanas evident in the Nikayas. But first let me say, just briefly, that even from the classical Theravadin standpoint, there was no reason for me to mention the subtle rupas in note 9 to the Connected Discourses, when I wrote about what was to be included in 'dhammaayatana'. In this note I was not proposing to give a general explanation of 'dhammaayatana'. Rather, I intended to explain how the dhammaayatana can include some of the factors of experience mentioned in SN 35:24 but not included in the "all" of SN 35:23. The second sentence in the note is the key to what follows: "... the factors mentioned here (and below) can be classified among the twelve bases." Since 35:24 does not mention subtle ruupas, there was no need for me to refer to them. The note becomes confused because: (1) the sentence quoted just above does not state that the method of classification I am going to use obtains from the standpoint of the Abhidhamma and commentaries and not from the Nikayas themselves;(2)I make matters worse confounded by introducing an expression 'dhammaaramma.na', which is not found in the suttas, and then contrasting this with 'dhammaayatana'. Your objection that the 'dhammaayatana' does not include concepts then arises because you then bring in the late idea of the 'dhammaaramma.na' including pannatti, concepts, which you see as incompatible with the relatively late idea of the 'dhammaayatana' as being a 'sabhaavadhamma', a naturally existent phenomena that cannot include concepts. These subtle discriminations are products of later phases in the development of Buddhist thought, which one doesn't find in the Nikayas themselves. And in the note I should have kept to a clear distinction between the Nikayas and the later developments of Theravadin thought. In the Nikayas, the sa.laayatana are also called the 'cha phassaayatanaani', the six bases for contact, and this gives us an indication of what they refer to: they are the six internal and external sense bases, *through the contact between which* the six types of consciousness originate. Now, just as the first five external sense bases signify the objects of their respective classes of consciousness -- the objects that correspond to their respect sense faculties -- so, as I see it, the dhammaayatana, as conceived in Nikaaya Buddhism, can only signify the objects of manovinnaa.na, which come into range of manovinnaa.na through the cognitive activity of mano. It is interesting to note that whereas later Abhidhamma Buddhism drives a wedge between 'dhammaayatana' and 'dhammaaramma.na', in the Salaayatanasa.myutta one hardly finds the expression 'aayatanas' used at all. Its occurrence is very rare. Yet all 240 odd suttas in this collection speak again and again about "the eye ... the mind," and "forms ... dhammas." So these must be the aayatanas, otherwise the ancient theras made a major mistake in assigning this sa.myutta the name Salaayatanasa.myutta. And again and again the suttas say, "In dependence on the eye and form, eye-consciousness arises," ... "In dependence on the mano and dhammas, mind-consciousness arises." So what can these dhammas be, but simultaneously 'dhammaayatana' (for this is the Salaayatana-sa.myutta) and the objects of 'manovinnana' because they are perfectly parallel in position to rupa, sadda, etc., in relation to eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. One might object, "Well, the dhammas here are feeling, perception, volition, subtle rupas, etc., because these are necessary for manovinnana to arise." I would then point to a number of passages in the Salaayatana-sa.myutta and elsewhere which state: "Having seen a form with the eye, ... Having cognized a dhamma with mano ..." My point is, that the dhamma is not merely something that accompanies manovinnaa.na; it is the *object* of manovinnaa.na. So there is no real distinction between 'dhammaayatana' and dhammas as objects of manovinna.na. I won't use the word 'dhammaaramma.na', since this will bring along the connotations of the word from its use in later Abhidhamma Buddhism, and hence lead to cognitive dissonance. But I would say that to drive a wedge between 'dhammaayatana' and the objects of manovinnana is to move in a direction different from, perhaps even contrary to, that of Nikaya Buddhism. Why did the Buddhist community set out in a different direction? I can only speculate about that, but if one looks closely at the Salaayatana-sa.myutta one can see signs that indicate an answer. The suttas in this collection are concerned primarily with *the training of a monk* intent on winning liberation. They are not concerned with theory. Now for this training to succeed, what is of principal concern is the overcoming of craving through the mastery of the senses. Thus a monk in training is concerned to overcome the attraction and repulsion towards pleasant forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and any mental objects that arise, whether conceptual or "naturally existent phenomena." I would conjecture that it was when the interest in certain sections of the Buddhist community shifted from practice to theory, from training to classification, that we find a new role being assigned to the 'dhammaayatana'. Now it must become an all-inclusive category, containing everything that can't be comprised by the other eleven aayatanas. It was also in this phase -- or even some centuries later -- that distinctions were drawn between naturally existent phenomena and conceptual phenomena, and from this arose the distinction between 'dhammaayatana' and 'dhammaaramma.na'. At this point 'dhammmaayatana' became almost fully detached from its original role and now took on quite a different, almost an opposed function. This is all I intend to say on this issue. If you wish, you can post this letter on your e-mail group site, but without my e-mail address. I just returned to the Anguttara Nikaya this past week, after two years, and to protect myself, I don't want to become entangled in long correspondences. For this reason too, I won't respond directly to Tep. I took a look at his question and can answer very briefly. The expression "stream of cittas" was one that I just picked upon in the course of writing. I did not use this intending it as the translation of a technical term used by the Buddha (though it might be seen to correspond to citta-santaana or citta-santati, the mental-continuum, or vinnaanasota, stream of consciousness0. It is not a citta beyond the fifteen, but the ongoing succession of cittas as they appear rapidly arising and passing away. With metta, BB. -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@...] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:57 AM To: bhikkhu bodhi Subject: Qus from Tep & Andrew c/o Sarah Dear Ven Bodhi, We both hope you're well settled by now at Bodhi monastery and that your headache condition is tolerable at least. Many of our friends wonder how the work is going on AN and whether you've been able to continue with the project. I'd be grateful for any information to pass on in this regard. Recently, a member, Andrew, of DSG wrote a report after meeting you at the NY Buddhist Vihara and another keen member, Tep, wondered if some of his questions could be conveyed to you. I said I would try to help, but everyone understands that you may be too busy to respond. I enclose the links to the three relevant messages here, which I think you'd find of some interest anyway: ..... Andrew http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43883 Tep http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43885 Andrew http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43888 ... I recently had some discussion about SN 35:24 (2) Abandonment and there was some confusion with regard to your notes on this. Perhaps I'm being dense when I say they seem unclear. If you have time, pls look at my message here and I apologise if my comments seem disrespectful in anyway: Sarah's message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42812 .... <....> 44486 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ MN 149 buddhistmedi... Dear Mike, (RobertK and Kel ) - Thank you very much for your consistency, friendship and mutual respect. I truly enjoy reading your comments that show in-depth knowledge of a practitioner. Tep: But if you really want to get the hell out of this world as quickly > as possible, in my opinion the yogi's way is the only way. Mike: Well, that's the issue, isn't it? I have tried the yogi's way unsuccessfully and am among those who think that this may well no longer be an option--even for fully ordained people. The fact that many laypeople in the texts entered the various paths without being (at least professional) yogis does suggest to me that the yogi's way is not the only way. Tep: Thanks to your emails (including a few the Hotmail off-list communication) about samatha and vipassana that have helped me soften my strong view somewhat. Now I begin to realize that my strong belief on the samatha meditation is too rigid. Yes, Mike, believe it or not, I am going to modify that "rigid view" as follows : Despit the numerous cases as told in the suttas, all of which being strongly supported by the Buddha and a number of Arahants, there are also clear evidences (although smaller in number) of Ariya puggalas who attained magga-nana from samatha-vipassana in tandem, or even from pure vipassana. However, even for pure vipassana practitioners, when the Eightfold factors are mature and the five indriyas are in good balance, then both samatha and vipassana are also in full bloom. My unshaken understanding has been that MN 149 emphasizes the fact that regardless of where you begin, the end result is identical. "Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight". --------------------- Mike : I would speculate that, in this context, tranquility is synonymous with absorption, but of course that's just my speculation. Tep : Technically the term tranquillity (passaddhi) is an enlightenment (bojjhanga) factor, while absorption is jhana and it is related to concentration (samadhi) which is another bojjhanga factor. ----------------- Mike: I've been told that this is an example of insight and tranquility being cultivated together. I'm not sure that the difference between the two is always cut and dried, but the object here--breathing in long etc.-- seems to me to be a concept, so this also sounds like samatha or jhaana bhaavanaa to me. Whether either or both, though, in this description it's clearly being done by a bhikkhu. ... ... Yes, in the Yuganaddha (congruous; harmonious; connected to a yoke) Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya 4.170) the two seem plainly to be 'in tandem'. Tep: I like the idea that both samatha and vipassana can be developed "in tandem" -- when the front and the rear wheels are rotating together, the bicycle is propelled ahead. Yes, I agree with you that the 4th case in Anguttara Nikaya 4.170 is also another example of samatha and vipassana being developed in tandem (rather than simultaneously). There is no way for a magganana to arise without samatha as one of the supports. The following excerpt explains why. "And what qualities are to be comprehended through direct knowledge? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' should be the reply. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These are the qualities that are to be comprehended through direct knowledge. "And what qualities are to be abandoned through direct knowledge? Ignorance & craving for becoming: these are the qualities that are to be abandoned through direct knowledge. "And what qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge? Tranquillity & insight: these are the qualities that are to be developed through direct knowledge. "And what qualities are to be realized through direct knowledge? Clear knowing & release: these are the qualities that are to be realized through direct knowledge. [MN 149] Mike: I don't have them indexed though--could you cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of trees or attend retreats and so on. Tep: I am afraid that I have not seen such an advice either. About citing those suttas (instructing laypeople how to become Sotapanna and Anagami), I will send you the information in the next email. Kel and Robert probably have the citation for these suttas too. Mike: I thank you also for your good wishes and hope that you'll achieve stream-entry in the course of this existence too, by the only means possible, that of the eightfold path. Tep: The truth of the Eightfold path is beyond worldlings' comprehension, but it is clearly seen by people with samma-ditthi. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." [MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta] Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Again Tep, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tep Sastri" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:53 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > > I'm impressed as always by your scholarship and courtesy-- > 44487 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do you see it? Larry 44488 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:54am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hi Geoff, > My whole point has been that vipassana/panna should be developed at > all times -- including during the formal sitting practice of jhana -- > and that proper jhana is impossible without it. This IMO is the clear > mesage in the Sutta Pitaka. Could you explain what you mean that jhana is impossible without developing panna. I have read similar statements in the suttas but found it rather cryptic. Is what you mean by panna, knowing the object of meditation very well here rather than seeing thilakkana or arising and passing away? I dont think I have come across any differentiation between supramundane jhana and mundane jhana in the suttas. Any ideas about this? metta Matheesha 44489 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: James (or anyone else) - why not consider opening a file with your own alternative set of 'James's U.P.' (or any other name)in whatever format you like? James: This is kind of you to offer, and demonstrates a clear sense of openness that I appreciate (things are getting better), but I don't know if this would be such a good idea. I don't want to put myself into that much of an adversarial role (you may not see it that way, but I'm sure others would). I could just name it "Even More Useful Posts"! ;-)). Not only that, it would be difficult for me to determine the posts which would make the cut: many, many posts are useful for different people at different times. I would probably end up picking posts because they were well-written, and that isn't always the best criteria. Not only that, it would take a lot of my time because I would have to read each of the posts, and that would take away from my other dhamma activities. This group is so busy that, if you let it, it can suck your life away. So, anyway, thanks for the offer but I think I will pass. However, since you have made this suggestion, you won't find me saying another negative comment about your U.P. again, ever. Metta, James 44490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. nilovg Hi Mike, Tep,Kelvin. I like your dialogue very much. I always find the anapanasati difficult to understand. As Mike says, breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept. Yes, but the citta which attends to it is a nama, non-self. It has to be realized as such. Citta is one of the four applications of mindfulness that one should attend to. Also, even one knows that breathing is long, there is still rupa impinging, and hardness or heat may appear. The nimitta of breath experienced in jhana is very, very subtle according to the Vis. As to the phrase:< Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long>, Jhana is not thinking about breath being long or short. Jhanacitta only experiences a nimitta of breath, nothing else. My personal idea: in between jhanacittas he is aware of nama and rupa, and he knows whether he is breathing in long or short. Also just before entering jhana. Jhanacittas are alternated with kaamaavacara cittas. The entering in and emerging must be very rapid. Kelvin, could you please ask your teachers? We need also anutiikas for this. I have always found these phrases difficult. As to the term bhikkhu, you also understood this to be a name for whoever develops the eightfold Path, that is the meaning in the widest sense. Nina. op 17-04-2005 01:28 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing > out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long." > > I've been told that this is an example of insight and tranquility being > cultivated together. I'm not sure that the difference between the two is > always cut and dried, but the object here--breathing in long etc.--seems to > me to be a concept, so this also sounds like samatha or jhaana bhaavanaa to > me. Whether either or both, though, in this description it's clearly being > done by a bhikkhu. 44491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: calm nilovg Hi Howard, op 16-04-2005 21:11 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I dodn't expect my mindstates to be free of attachment for a long, > long time, Nina! > --------------------------------------- N: It is beneficial to realize this. We know that we have the latent tendency of attachment. This conditions the arising of it. Now, what I find important is to begin to realize when there is attachment. This is difficult, especially when it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Indifferent feeling seems so peaceful, but it may very well be feeling accompanying attachment, most of the time. ------------------------------------ > Howard: > True calm doesn't come until the 3rd or 4th jhana. Even the 2nd jhana > is filled with bliss! -------------------------------- N: You are right that the 2nd jhana is still coarse and not as calm as the higher jhanas. There are many degrees of calm. But each kusala citta, and thus also jhanacitta is accompanied by the cetasikas that are calm. Jhanacitta, even of the first stage, is calm compared to the cittas of the sense-sphere. Lokuttara cittas eradicate defilements and thus these lead to calm greater than jhaana. But I have no experience, all I know is from reading the suttas and the Visuddhimagga. H: quotes: The citta that begins to develop samatha should be right from the >> start: it should be kusala citta with alobha, adosa and amoha or paññaa. >> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nina, we cannot wait for conditions to be perfect. Constant practice of > sila as best we can is sufficient preparation. ------------------------- N: I like to take siila very widely, not merely keeping the precepts, abstaining from wrong conduct. Kusala siila are kusala actions through body and speech. And even when we do not intend to develop jhana, it is beneficial not to take for kusala what is akusala. Through the development of insight it will be known more precisely what is kusala and what is akusala, but at least, we can begin to investigate more. If one wants to develop the Brahmavihaaras, one should know in daily life when there is the near enemy of attachment instead of metta. Pañña should investigate this. Siila can become more accomplished and firmer when it is accompanied by paññaa. Of course for beginners, perfection cannot be expected, but if the cause is wrong the result cannot be right. I try to think of those who developed samatha to the degree of jhana I read about in the scriptures. They had to have right attention to their cittas in daily life, to their practice of siila, kusala deeds and speech. They had to know when the citta was pure kusala, without any trace of lobha, and when there was attachment. When they begun, they were not perfect, but at least they did not delude themselves. They cultivated the right cause leading to the right result. Nina. 44492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. nilovg Hi Geoff, op 16-04-2005 21:48 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > > The fact that there is still a very subtle bodily pleasant feeling > means that one still feels/experiences the body in the third jhana > (the explanation of mental and physical sukha in Psm. Commentary on > Breathing gives details regarding distinction -- which I propose are > addressing jhana resulting from anapanasati). -------------------- N: As I said to Howard, all I know is from reading scriptures, Vis. and Co. I just read in Vis. IV, 175: This is the same as the Atthasaalinii I quoted for you. Sukha can mean bodily feeling that is vipaaka, and also somanassa, mental pleasant feeling that is a jhanafactor. When someone enters jhana for the first time, it is just for a moment. He could very well notice a bodily sensation when emerging. When in jhana: he could not. What is otherwise the sense of distinguishing kaamaavacara citta and jhaanacitta as different planes of citta? When the yogavacara wants to attain the second jhana he must already have mastery of jhana, entering and emerging whenever he wants. For instance, when he develops insight he can in between jhanas be aware of nama and rupa, that includes bodily feelings. Knowing this may be helpful in interpreting texts. ------------------ G: I’ve been at this > for a fairly long time, during which I’ve done extensive > individual retreat and also lived in residence at a Buddhist > monastery for almost 2 yrs. where the daily regimen was 4 1/2 hrs of > mandatory group sitting daily, with 8 1/2 hours mandatory group > sitting every Sunday, and 6 1/2 hours mandatory group sitting daily > for 2 months of annual retreat. --------------------- N: I am amazed at your endurance. How could you hold out? How could others hold out? You must be motivated to cultivate jhana. What benefit do you seek from it, do you find it helpful? ------------------ G: Such phenomena can appear every sitting for > months or even years -- and then one day they can simply be gone -- > that’s how conditioned and therefore unstable all such quasi- > paranormal experiences are. But jhana, as the suttas describe it, and > as I recognize in my own experience, and as others recognize in their > own experience, is a fairly reliable and repeatable experience given > the appropriate conditions of environment, productive sila, and > ongoing panna, etc., are present. --------------- N: Yes, as I wrote to Howard, pañña should be emphasized, also for jhana. Otherwise one cannot know one's different cittas. Lobha always plays us tricks, and it comes in disguise! I read that someone expert in jhanas lost it because of akusala siila. I read it in the Jatakas, such as the Harita Jataka. He lost jhana and superpowers. I am frequently deluded by lobha. One of our Singhalese friemds translated a subco. on Vañcana dhammas, deluding dhammas, and this is delightfully down to earth. It is in U.P. (long ago), and I hope Sarah will give the link. I need it at least once a year to remind myself of all the tricks of lobha. There are meanwhile many newcomers who may like it. Good stuff for discussion with my husband, I shall print it out. ---------------- G: And it has been my experience and the experience of others I know, > that jhana in no way necessitates the cessation of sensory form > experience .... ------------------ N: I cannot talk from practice, only from the texts. ----------------- G: Yes, there’s a place for ancient commentary, I’m very > much fond of the Commentary on Breathing in the Patisambhidamagga for > example, ------------------ N: the Patisambhidamagga is not a Co. but it belongs to the Sutta Pitaka, the Kuddhaka Nikaya. ------------------- G: I discuss these matters not to puff > myself up, but to stimulate discussion of how one can experientially > relate to what is stated in Sutta Pitaka, and how one can also > measure if the commentarial descriptions are realistic, or > theoretical and quite possibly elitist -- based on absolutist > idealism and not on pragmatic every day realism. ----------------------- N: That is what also matters to me: pragmatic every day realism. I know your intentions: just stimulating discussion. Thanks to all your questioning I started to consider more the object of jhanacitta. I searched more in the Abh. and Co. on this subject. Thank you for sharing your experiences, Nina. 44493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan nilovg Hi Sarah and Phil good to hear from Phil, he is not out of our thoughts. I like the reminder: We did not do anything special, but conditions moved us to the situation of Dhamma study today. Discussing Dhamma here in this forum, being reminded by others of the truth at this moment. All this is conditioned by many factors, from the far past, the nearer past, conditions operating at this moment. Nina. op 16-04-2005 17:11 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I've really come to appreciate the way of seeing > life and death with every citta, with every moment. Otherwise there > is such clinging to results. On the other hand, people will say that > this lifetime we were born as humans in a time when the Buddha's > teaching exists in the world, and that we must make good use of that > rare opportunity to study Dhamma. There are so many conditions that > must be fulfilled for us to be able to study Dhamma. 44494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comparing ... Conceit nilovg Dear Christine, Thank you for your well written reminder. Now, this is not the conceited way of comparing. It is like in the suttas, someone going to the charnel field and seeing a corpse: just as that body so will this body be. It is just a reminder of the truth. Nina. op 17-04-2005 04:26 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > this person had started out just like me, to go to > the city for shopping, with no thought that this was their dying > day ...just like me. And just as he is, so shall I be ... > > Perhaps not all comparisons are odious 44495 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:06am Subject: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened foamflowers Hi everyone...time to share some of my thoughts! I think jhana is the subtle conscious which is always there and most people just aren't aware of it. When jhana is a verb its the method and my teacher told me to watch out and not get attached to the method. When Jhana is used as a noun it is the subtle consciousness or as some of my friends call it, "The Super Consciousness", said in a deep voice that echos as it fades away. We are in jhana all the time, I would bet my eye teeth in this! In the past before meditation, for me at least, it was hard to be aware of that which is so subtle compared to what is manifested from aversion and clinging. From my own experience there seems to be no levels when I looked at the mind but rather just a clearer view of reality as it is without the overlay of conceptual thought--a less fragmented focus of what is very difficult to put into words. Jhana is still consciousness no matter how subtle or Super it is and from my limited understanding after getting to know this sutble consciousness it must also be let go of as well, to see reality as it is. It's all about deliverance of the mind and labeling helps in the birthing I think. When I first started my vipassana meditation I was told to label this sensation as it seemed to me--hot, cold, sharp, tingles, itches, moves, angry thought, greedy thought, aversion or craving and so on but I naturally dropped this labeling when sensation on the most subtle level were easily seen and let go of and this happened very naturally I had no notion of how it should be. I was totally clueless to attainments at this time...my teachers just told me to sit down and meditate some more or take a break or walk when I would come and tell them about the lights, bliss, visions or "oh my gosh my body went away!" or flooding thoughts, pain and so on. Maybe it is easier for people to wake up if they can name and lable things that come and go in the body/mind. Because for me I had never really paid much attention to sensation or reaction to sensation as it happened I was always tangled up in the past or in my thoughts and worries about the future or just playing with my imagination. Now it is easy to bend mind to notice subtle sensation that covers or is(?) body/mind like a blanket and watch it come and go or scan it to keep sensation in harmony. But to label all the methods and awarness all the time just stops the attention from viewing the natrual flow of sensation for me. How can I put what flows into nice neat boxes and then put labels on the boxes to explain this mind. I was totally confused about what was happening to me in my meditation when I compared my own experience to those words translated from an ancient religion written in an old long forgotten language belonging to a long lost culture translated by a mind from a different culture and time. To me and this is just my opinion Jhana is very natural and not a system and that confused me for years to the point where I just stopped comparing my own meditation to what is in the Canon. Although I had found relief it was not what the Arahants found or what Gotama found. I finally figured out the sutas are just reflections or reviews of someone elses method and attainments and not a meditation manual. Sutas and commentaries to me are like sign posts on a road and you don't pull up the sign posts or mile markers when you drive by them or stop and try to go into them..ouch...it is really hard to keep driving when the cab is full of mile markers! hahaha For a time and when I reached the more subtle of consciousness that is, what I could not touch easily with my mind, letting go of concepts happened naturally I think I got really tired of having to stick labels on what was coming and going faster than a blink of the eye (my attention span--hahaha---). I still work on subtle forms of aversion and craving which manifest as procrastination...this year I actually got to touch the sensation that triggers me just before I open my eyes in the morning I go to breath and can see it manifest just below my heart. I can actually follow this and watch it fade away!!! Yeah!!! Insights are hatching...hahaha For me after a time of letting go over and over again the sensations subtle or harsh didn't bring up words, thoughts, emotions or feelings that overwhelmed me and I was able to see just sensation. "Letting go of the more subtle consciousness or jhana at this time should happen naturally?" I use anapanasati to calm the body/mind down or perk it up when it was lagging and it helped me learn to focus on just one thing the breath which was very helpful in training my attention not to jump around so much. I use anapanasati all the time depending on what kind of focus I need. I found just intently focusing wasn't the issue for me, I can focus really well when I want too. I can stay on a painting and totally forget about time for hours or do long distance running and stay focused on running and not pain or stay for hours working on a computer problem but I still suffered from reactions to sensations I liked or didn't like. I think learning to focus mind on what is very subtle like virtues was and still is very helpful to me in letting go or unbinding from habitual reactions and thinking. The virtues kind of grease the Way so you can just slide through without to much friction! hahahaha I know everyone's patterns are different so views of Jhana, insight and wisdom will also be different when put into words because letting go of aversions and cravings happens differently for everyone....would you agree? Anyway I've been reading the posts here at DSG as they are delivered to my mail box at work and at home, I really enjoy the references, citations, and personal experiences of everyone. I don't have a lot of time to write much because I have two jobs plus meditaton, dhamma studies and lovely relationships to maintain. What a lovely weave here it's like a magic carpet ride! I dug into one of my reference books by Peter Masefield and found some lay people who may have done jhana. Jhana seems it have been very common and most meditators (from my limited reading) during Gotama's time spiritually trained people were very aware of jhana and had no fear of it. Understanding Jhana through awarness reminds me of weightlifting to get the muscles in shape got to work it or you'll lose it! The Arahants I've read about in discourses and references from other scholars seemed to have awakened through hearing a discourse or having many conversations with Gotama the Buddha (Teacher that is the pure mind or heart(personal opinion here). I bet most of these people were well versed in the method and the fruit and that is why they could 'hear' Buddha. Conversion: the person concerned became an Arahant: "Divine Revelation in Pali Buddhism" by Peter Masefield Vin i 17 Yasa Lay person became an Arahant through reviewing the Dhamma heard in discourse to Dighanakiha by Buddha. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/y/yasa.htm Vin i 16 Yasa's father--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--fate unknown Vin i 18 Yasa's mother--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--fate unknown Yasa attained realization of the Dhamma. To Yasa's father, too, who had come in search of his son, the Buddha preached the Doctrine, having first made Yasa invisible to him. (This is given as an example of the Buddha's iddhi power, Vsm.393). At the end of the sermon he acknowledged himself the Buddha's follower, (he thus became the first tevácika upásaka) and Yasa, who had been listening, became an arahant. M i.380 name: Upali,--Layperson--awakened through progressive talks--by Buddha--Became an Arahant A iv 186 General Siha--Lay--Progressive talk--by Buddha--Arahant Vin I 15f, Yasa--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin i 19 Subahu--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin i 19 Punnaji--Lay--progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin i 19f Gavampati plus 50 other lay people--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Aarhant Vin i 23 30 friends from Pava--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin I 181 Sona Kolivisa--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant D ii 40f Khanda and Tissa-- Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha Vipassin--Arahant D ii 43 84000 laymen--Lay--Progressive talk-Buddha Vipassin--Arahant M i 39f Sundarika-Bharadvajra--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 161 Bharadvaja--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 163 Akkosaka--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 164 Asurindaka--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 164 Bilangika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 165 Ahimsaka--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant Si 165 Jata--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 165 Suddhika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 167 Aggika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 170 Sundarika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 171 Bharadvaja--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant Sn p 15 Kasi-Bharadvaja--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant With Metta, Lisa 44496 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas Evan_Stamato... Sarah, Thanks for posting this. I must admit to a selfish "joy" at reading this one line from Bhikkhu Bodhi's letter to you. I have been waiting a while for Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya without even knowing if he was working on it. Now that I know he is putting this on a higher priority, I can patiently wait a few more years for his excellent work to be published. Kind Regards, Evan --Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi I just returned to the Anguttara Nikaya this past week, after two years, and to protect myself, I don't want to become entangled in long correspondences. With metta, BB. 44497 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hello Nina, I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. Then they train in vipassana. Many go through to an understanding in Anatta and do away with their sakkayaditti. Then they watch arising and passing away until the egg shell breaks away and the chick is born. Then they develop phalasamawatha and abide in the same void. Some do all of this in a concentrated 2 weeks. Suddenly the sutta become so much more clearer. Interested? Vancana dhamma? Worth a try? :) oh and its free of charge. :) metta Matheesha 44498 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan philofillet Hi Nina, and all > good to hear from Phil, he is not out of our thoughts. You haven't been out of my thoughts, either. The new computer has a fairly huge monitor that hurts my alreadey weak eyes. I should hold off on posting until I get glasses (which I keep putting off) but we'll see what happens. > I like the reminder: must be fulfilled for us to be able to study Dhamma.> I thought of this again yesterday. I saw two flies competing for a piece of shrimp that was lying on the ground on the park and realized that the unstudied way they respond to lobha is not *that* much different from the way people have the tendency to do This made me feel grateful for having been fortunate enough to come across the Buddha's teaching and for having the conditions necessary to respond to it. > We did not do anything special, but conditions moved us to the situation of > Dhamma study today. Discussing Dhamma here in this forum, being reminded by > others of the truth at this moment. Listening to the tapes, I really appreciate how not only Kh Sujin but also other people bring us back to what's real. In the middle of one perplexing (but useful) discussion about whether there is a difference between "no self" and "not self" a Thai man (Kom?) brought the talk back to the fact that there are only 4 paramattha dhammas. Hearing them listed again and again and again is helpful. These reminders sink in, the intellectual understanding deepens, we are pulled back from the sea of concepts and can stand a little more solidly on solid ground, just for a moment, before we are swept away again. But that moment conditions more moments of gradually deepening intellectual understanding, and without clinging to expectations about results we can feel confident that we are being moved closer towards direct understanding. It's very refreshing! That is a word I am using these days, conditioned by re-reading the chapter in Cetasikas on piti. I will be asking more about that when we get to that chapter. >All this is conditioned by many factors, > from the far past, the nearer past, conditions operating at this moment. I am also rereading "Conditions." Developing a more precise understanding of conditions, albeit intellectual, broadens and solidifies are theoretical understanding of anatta, which must come first before anything more direct can arise. ) I often think of things my friend James has said to me in the past. They tend to stick in my mind for some reason, perhaps because they go against the grain. He said "it seems you are studying Dhamma by studying this group" rather than studying suttas and reflecting on them. Well, I do read suttas (still concentrating on khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta) but I must admit I am now more drawn to Abhidhamma study. I still feel that the deeper my understanding of Abhidhamma is, the better I can understand suttas without getting caught up in subjective interpretations based on the way I subtly wish things to be. Of course that is also possible when we study Abhidhamma, but there seems to be less danger of it. I hope you and Lodewijk have been well and are enjoying the lovely spring weather. I think there are many tulips in your country. I had an experience with tulips that I want to ask you about - that will be in the piti chapter. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks again in passing to Sarah - I seemed to have worked out the glitch. 44499 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Matheesha, Please don't torment us. Which meditation centre is this? What are their contact details? And do they instruct in English? Thanks, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Monday, 18 April 2005 10:39 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Hello Nina, I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. Then they train in vipassana. Many go through to an understanding in Anatta and do away with their sakkayaditti. Then they watch arising and passing away until the egg shell breaks away and the chick is born. Then they develop phalasamawatha and abide in the same void. Some do all of this in a concentrated 2 weeks. Suddenly the sutta become so much more clearer. Interested? Vancana dhamma? Worth a try? :) oh and its free of charge. :) metta Matheesha 44500 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 4/17/05 8:39:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in > Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve > the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. > > Then they train in vipassana. Many go through to an understanding in > Anatta and do away with their sakkayaditti. Then they watch arising > and passing away until the egg shell breaks away and the chick is > born. Then they develop phalasamawatha and abide in the same void. > Some do all of this in a concentrated 2 weeks. Suddenly the sutta > become so much more clearer. > =================== They don't happen to have a "sister" center in the U.S., do they? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44501 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Ha! Didn't think of that, How about Australia? Kind Regards, Evan =================== They don't happen to have a "sister" center in the U.S., do they? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44502 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: Comparing ... Conceit philofillet Hi Christine, and all First of all, Christine, sorry to hear about Rusty. I think he was a fortunate dog. On to conceit and comparing... > But after yesterday,it has occurred to me that > sometimes making comparisons may be beneficial. I enjoyed your story. There is so much to learn from in daily life. I would agree that it is helpful to compare ourselves to others in terms of conventional things, such as health, living circumstances and whether we are a cadaver being loaded into an ambulance or not. I guess it is that sort of comparison that triggered the Buddha's serach for enlightenment after his chariot ride. There are so many messengers like this in daily life, around us all the time. Since we are inevitably cuaght up in concepts about people, the concepts can at least become helpful in increasing our understanding. Maybe the area where it is a mistake to compare is when it comes to paramattha dhammas. We cannot know the other's citta. There is a natural tendency to think "that person understands better than I do" but strictly speaking that is wrong. There is no person, there is only understanding, moment by moment. Of course, some people have accumulated understanding in a way that makes it much more likely that they will have moments of understanding than I will, but I guess we have wrong view when we say "she understands better than I do." We fall into the trap of seeing understanding as something that is owned and operated by people. It's not really like that, when we get deeper into dhammas. I guess... Metta, Phil > 44503 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - I am grateful to you Sarah for sending my two questions to Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi . I sincerely and gladly thank Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi for his brief answers. The term "mental-continuum" or "stream of consciousness" (citta- santaana or citta-santati) , he says, corresponds to the "stream of cittas" in my first question. And he explains further that such stream of cittas is not beyond the fifteen citta (i.e. vimutti citta in the cittanupassana of the Maha-satipatthana Sutta), but rather the "ongoing succession of cittas". However, my focus was on the particular moment right after the "apparent observer" disappears! It seems to me that this must be a special moment, not related to the "ongoing" normal succession of cittas when total release (vimutti) has not yet happened. ["At times there might appear to be a persisting observer behind the process, but with continued practice even this apparent observer disappears. The mind itself -- the seemingly solid, stable mind -- dissolves into a stream of cittas flashing in and out of being moment by moment, coming from nowhere and going nowhere, yet continuing in sequence without pause". Bhikkhu Bodhi ] Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Larry, Nina,Tep, Al & All - Letter from B.Bodhi in response to mine (see > my email at end of post) > ************************************************************ > > Subject: yes, a confused note > Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:18:24 -0400 > > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for your e-mail. I reviewed note 9 on page 1400 of CDB of the group site, but without my e-mail address. (snipped) > > I just returned to the Anguttara Nikaya this past week, after two years, > and to protect myself, I don't want to become entangled in long > correspondences. For this reason too, I won't respond directly to Tep. I took a look at his question and can answer very briefly. The expression "stream of cittas" was one that I just picked upon in the course of writing. I did not use this intending it as the translation of a > technical term used by the Buddha (though it might be seen to correspond to citta-santaana or citta-santati, the mental-continuum, or > vinnaanasota, stream of consciousness0. It is not a citta beyond the > fifteen, but the ongoing succession of cittas as they appear rapidly > arising and passing away. > > With metta, > BB. > 44504 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:42pm Subject: vancaka dhammas nichiconn Dear Nina, They're listed in UP's: Cheating (vancaka) Dhammas 3543, 3544, 3545, 10517 peace, connie 44505 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:08am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 170- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path] As we have seen in chapter 9, there are several aspects to kusala viriya, right effort. It is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding and right mindfulness of the eightfold Path and as such it is called sammå-våyåma . This type of effort or energy is not energy for mindfulness in the future, but energy for mindfulness right now. When there is right mindfulness of any characteristic which appears right now, there is also right effort accompanying the citta at that moment. We may find that mindfulness does not arise very often. It seems that we lack a true “sense of urgency”, which is according to the Atthasåliní and the Visuddhimagga the proximate cause of right effort. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas nilovg Hi Sarah, Larry, What I quote below may be the crux of the matter. Yes, this is all about the practice, as Ven, Bodhi says. It is about satipatthana, the essence of the teaching. This is awareness at this very moment of all that appears through the six doors. We are thinking of concepts most of the time but we have to learn what realities are It is a training, a learning process. Through the mind-door also the sights, sounds are experienced. It is only later on that one thinks of concepts on account of them. Concepts are not the objects of insight, they do not have the three characteristics. However, they are objects of citta that thinks about them. That is why they can be called dhammaaramma.na, objects that can only be known through the mind-door. Nina. op 17-04-2005 16:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > The > suttas in this collection are concerned primarily with *the training of > a monk* intent on winning liberation. They are not concerned with > theory. Now for this training to succeed, what is of principal concern > is the overcoming of craving through the mastery of the senses. Thus a > monk in training is concerned to overcome the attraction and repulsion > towards pleasant forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and any > mental objects that arise, whether conceptual or "naturally existent > phenomena." 44507 From: nina Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:31am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 152 and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 152, Attention, manasikaara. Intro: Attention is a ³universal², it is among the seven cetasikas that accompany each citta. It can be of the four jaatis that are kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. In this context of the Visuddhimagga it assists, together with the other sobhana cetasikas, the mahaa-kusala citta that is accompanied by paññaa. As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) attention is among the four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors (yevaapanaka). They are not expressively mentioned in the list of the Dhammasangani. The term manasikaara, attention, denotes the cetasika manasikaara as well as two kinds of citta, namely, the five-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. This will be explained further. **** Text Vis.: (xxx) It is the maker of what is to be made, it is the maker in the mind (manamhi kaaro), thus it is 'attention' (bringing-to-mind--manasi-kaara). ----------------- N: The Tiika elaborates further on the Pali term manasikaara, attention. As to the maker in the mind, manamhi kaaro, it is the maker of the object in the mind. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.a. p. 56): -------------------------------- Text Vis.: It makes the mind different from the previous [life-continuum] mind, thus it is attention. ---------------------------------- Tiika: The previous mind is the bhavangacitta, life-continuum. ------------------------------ N: Here the Vis. refers to the cittas that are called manasikaara. The manasikaara which is the sense-door advertingconsciousness is the first citta of a sense-door process, succeeding the bhavangacitta. All bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and they do not arise in a process of cittas. They do not experience objects that are impinging on the six doors. The sense-door advertingconsciousness is completely different from the bhavanga-citta and it experiences a different object. It experiences an object impinging on one of the sense-doors. The manasikaara which is the mind-door adverting-consciousness is followed by javana cittas, which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats. ----------------------------------------- Text Vis.: It has three ways of doing this: as the controller of the object, as the contoller of the cognitive series, and as the controller of impulsions. -------------------------------- N: Thus, there are three kinds of manaasikaara, attention. One kind is manasikaara cetasika, called, the regulator of the object, and two kinds are cittas. The five-door adverting-consciousness regulates the sense-door process of cittas, since it is the first citta of a sense-door process after the bhavanga-cittas and the mind-door adverting consciousness regulates the javana cittas, since it is succeeded by javana cittas. --------------------------------- Text Vis. : Herein, the controller of 'the object' is the maker in the mind, thus it is 'attention'. That has the characteristic of conducting (saara.na). Its function is to yoke associated states to the object. It is manifested as confrontation with an object. ------------------------------- N: As to the manifestation of confrontation with an object, the Tiika explains that it is different from sati that also confronts an object. The Tiika explains that the manifestation of sati is confrontation with an object because of non-forgetfulness. As we read about sati in Vis. XIV, 141:< or it is manifested as the state of confronting an objective field. > Sati is non-forgetful of wholesomeness, of daana, siila and bhaavanaa. However, the manifestation of attention, maanasikaara, is joining (associated states) to the object. -------------------------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is an object. It should be regarded as the conductor (saarathi) of associated states by controlling the object, itself being included in the formations aggregate. ----------------------------- N: Like a charioteer steers thorough-bred horses, it leads the associated dhammas towards the object. The cetasika manasikaara is included in sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the formations aggregate, whereas the two cittas that are also called manasikaara, are included in viññaa.nakkhandha, the aggregate of consciousness, as the Tiika states. ------------------------------ Text Vis. : 'Controller of the cognitive series' is a term for five-door adverting (70). 'Controller of impulsions' is a term for mind-door adverting (71). These last two are not included here. ----------------------- N: Thus, the cetasika manasikaara is called regulator of the object, aaramma.napa.tipaadaka. In this context of the Visuddhimagga manasikaara cetasika leads the accompanying dhammas to the object in the wholesome way. It assists the mahaa-kusala citta that is accompanied by paññaa together with the other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati, wish-to-do, and resolution for kusala. They each perform their own function in the perfoming of daana, the observing of siila, the development of samatha and of vipassanaa. As a charioteer, sobhana manasikaara conducts in a skilfull way the accompanying citta and cetasikas to the object of wholesomeness. Attention is conditioned by the citta and cetasika it accompanies and at each moment there is a different attention. It arises and falls away with the citta it accompanies. For the development of samatha, there has to be right attention to the different cittas that arise. One has to know precisely when the citta is pure kusala and when there is attachment to calm, otherwise calm cannot be developed. For the development of vipassanaa, there also has to be right attention to the object that appears. When there is mindfulness of a naama or a ruupa, right attention conducts the citta and cetasikas to the present object. At that moment paññaa, right understanding, can further develop. ********* Nina. 44508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan nilovg Hello Phil, thank you for your letter. I am glad you are back. I just thought of you when looking at Cetasikas Questions, and thought of putting that off ;-)) The suttas are such helpful reminders for awareness now. It is nice if you can share some sutta reading with us. I like khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta. Nina. op 18-04-2005 02:40 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Well, I do read suttas (still concentrating on > khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta) but I must admit I am now > more drawn to Abhidhamma study. I still feel that the deeper my > understanding of Abhidhamma is, the better I can understand suttas 44509 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I'm not sure I can help here, but let me add a comment all the same- --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Sarah - <...> > I sincerely and gladly thank Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi for his brief answers. > The term "mental-continuum" or "stream of consciousness" (citta- > santaana or citta-santati) , he says, corresponds to the "stream of > cittas" in my first question. And he explains further that such stream > of > cittas is not beyond the fifteen citta (i.e. vimutti citta in the > cittanupassana of the Maha-satipatthana Sutta), but rather > the "ongoing succession of cittas". ... S: I understand BB to merely be pointing out that what we take for a self or an observer doesn't exist and that there is merely a 'stream of cittas' rising in falling away in succession. As understanding grows, clearly there are just impermanent namas (and rupas). Understanding develops - it's not that there is an 'apparent observer' and that this suddenly disappears as you suggest. Perhaps you are reading too much into his original comment or taking it too literally? ... > > However, my focus was on the particular moment right after > the "apparent observer" disappears! It seems to me that this must be a > special moment, not related to the "ongoing" normal succession of > cittas when total release (vimutti) has not yet happened. ... S: Are you referring to magga and phala cittas? I don't think BB is particularly. I don't know quite what you are referring to 'beyond the 15th kind of citta, ie 'the freed mind (vimutti citta' either. Pls elaborate. Can you quote the lines on cittanupassana in Maha-satipatthana S that you are referring to. I think I understand BB's comments here, but am not sure of yours, for which I apologise. .... > ["At times there might appear to be a persisting observer behind the > process, but with continued practice even this apparent observer > disappears. The mind itself -- the seemingly solid, stable mind -- > dissolves into a stream of cittas flashing in and out of being moment by > > moment, coming from nowhere and going nowhere, yet continuing in > sequence without pause". Bhikkhu Bodhi ] .... Metta, Sarah ======= 44510 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Nina, Tep, Kel, Suan, Ven Dhammanando & All), --- Larry wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in > my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on > concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do > you see it? .... S:Let me try to summarise, bearing in mind that I don’t have access to the SN commentary which would be very useful. 1. Whereas ‘traditional Theravadins’ and some of us here see the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to be in conformity, BB doesn’t necessarily at all. Usually when we ‘agree to disagree’ it is on this account, as in the conclusion on the Jhanas discussion. 2. BB believes that the ‘conception’ of the ayatanas in the Nikayas has ‘evolved’ and significantly been changed in the Abhidhamma. I don’t believe so, but I think we need to read and consider v. carefully and it’s very easy to misunderstand and I believe the commentaries are there to help us for this reason.. 3. BB suggests that whereas it’s true that dhammayatana only refers to paramattha dhamma (‘naturally existing phenomena that cannot include concepts’) in the Abhidhamma and commentaries but not in the Nikayas. I don’t agree. Terms and labels may be different, but the dhammas included, eg the cetasikas, are the same. 4. There is also a blurring of distinction between arammana (objects) and ayatana (sense fields) which seems to logically follow, but I don’t believe is correct and misses the important aspects of ayatanas. 5. BB gives reasons for what he sees as the differences in the commentaries and Abhidhamma and the Nikayas. He speculates that the suttas were ‘concerned primarily with....winning liberation’ whilst the commentators became more interested in theory, ‘from training to classification’. I think this is indicative of a lack of confidence in the true depth of the entire Tipitaka, especially those aspects we cannot understand or which are contrary to our beliefs. 6. BB mentions that in the Abhidhamma/commentaries ‘ayatana’becomes an ‘all-inclusive category’. Well yes, the same applies to the dhatus, khandhas, nama/rupa and all other classifications. It’s true that in the suttas, the emphasis is on what can be known and what is apparent in daily life rather than stressing on every detail known to the Buddha’s omniscient wisdom. For this reason, under ayatanas in the suttas, there’s unlikely to be much emphasis on subtle rupa and, bhavanga cittas, for example. This is true for most dhammas discussed. (I think BB’s point on the subtle rupas is valid in this regard). 7. My own comment is that I think we’re fortunate if we can respect the Ti-pitaka and have confidence that the ancient commentators understood the teachings better than we did and can be guided by them. The path is difficult enough without this assistance. I hope to get back on the points raised, but I would like to see any commentary notes first if possible, in case I’m barking up any wrong trees. Nina, Kel, Tep, Suan and anyone else – I’d be grateful for any assistance with this if you can access the Pali or Thai. I’d also like to hear any comments anyone else has to add. On ‘ayatanas’, as usual, there are some helpful posts in ‘U.P.’ Metta, Sarah ======= 44511 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 152 and Tiika. htootintnaing Dear Nina, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! A Great Joy. Thanks a lot. I have some points to discuss. Please see below. I leave all other un-used part of your post as moderators suggest. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina:"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 152, Attention,manasikaara. Intro: Attention is a ³universal², it is among the seven ..snip.. As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) attention is among the four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors (yevaapanaka). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are the four cetasikas? I could not read above character of 'OEor-whatever-dhammas'. What is that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: ..snip.. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.a. p. 56): ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Is 'Co.' commentaries? Maybe I am negligent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: ... snip ... Here the Vis. refers to the cittas that are called manasikaara. The manasikaara which is the sense-door advertingconsciousness is the first citta of a sense-door process, succeeding the bhavangacitta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once in a certain message in a certain group, I wrote that there are 2 doors. The first door is pancadvara-avajjana-citta or 'sense-door-adverting consciousness'. Because it opens the door to the flow to enter the process. The 2nd door is votthapana citta or determining consciousness or manodvara-avajjana citta. That 2nd door opens to the flow so that the object is presented to the king(javana). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: All bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the rebirth- consciousness, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I read this many times. But may I ask you a question? When the 2nd retention consciousness or 2nd tadaarammana citta passes away, where does the object come from for life-continuum consciousness or bhavanga citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: ..snip .. The manasikaara which is the mind-door adverting-consciousness is followed by javana cittas, which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: First I was confused. Now that I am clear, I have no more question on above sentence. At the first glance, I noted that 'manodvara-avajjana citta is wrongly mentioned as 'manasikara cetasika'. Now, I absorb that there are 3 manasikaara. One is cetasika and 2 are cittas. Both cittas are adverting consciousness. As they are adverting they do have to attend the object and yes, they are manasikaara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: .. Thus, the cetasika manasikaara is called regulator of the object, ..snip .. snip .. For the development of vipassanaa, there also has to be right attention to the object that appears. When there is mindfulness of a naama or a ruupa, right attention conducts the citta and cetasikas to the present object. At that moment paññaa, right understanding, can further develop. ********* Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Nina for all your effort. PS: I do not think it is space- consuming to put '1 character for space after a 'fullstop' or a 'comma'. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 44512 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas rjkjp1 -Dear Sarah, I have expressed my gratitude for venerable Bodhi's translations and his replies to dsg on several occasions. However it is unfortunate that he persists in expressing his doubts about the Theravada. His stature as the worlds leading Engish translator of the Pali means that his views are convincing to many. This can lead to Dhammantaraya. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Larry, (Nina, Tep, Kel, Suan, Ven Dhammanando & All), > > --- Larry wrote: > > > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in > > my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on > > concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do > > you see it? > .... > S:Let me try to summarise, bearing in mind that I don't have access to the > SN commentary which would be very useful. > > 1. Whereas `traditional Theravadins?Eand some of us here see the entire > Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to be in conformity, BB doesn't > necessarily at all. Usually when we `agree to disagree?Eit is on this > account, as in the conclusion on the Jhanas discussion. > > 2. BB believes that the `conception?Eof the ayatanas in the Nikayas has > `evolved?Eand significantly been changed in the Abhidhamma. I don't > believe so, but I think we need to read and consider v. carefully and it's > very easy to misunderstand and I believe the commentaries are there to > help us for this reason.. > > 3. BB suggests that whereas it's true that dhammayatana only refers to > paramattha dhamma (`naturally existing phenomena that cannot include > concepts?E in the Abhidhamma and commentaries but not in the Nikayas. I > don't agree. Terms and labels may be different, but the dhammas included, > eg the cetasikas, are the same. > > 4. 44513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (331) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm 4. asurakaaya bhumi or demaon realm 3. peta bhumi or ghost realm 2. tiracchaana bhumi or animal realm 1. niraya bhumi or hell realm The last 4 realms of 31 realms are called apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms. 6 deva realms and human realms are reborn with one of 8 mahavipaka cittas or one of 4 nana vippayutta mahavipaka cittas or sometimes beings are reborn with sugati ahetuka patisandhi citta called 'upekkha santirana citta of kusala origion. But all beings in any of above last 4 realms are reborn with 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusalavipaka santirana citta'. a) Where do they come from? b) Where are they going when they die in 4 woeful realms? Answer to a) The beings in 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms come from a) 6 deva bhumis b) 1 manussa bhumi or human realm c) 4 appaya bhumis d) reborn in the same realm except hell beings, ghosts, and demons Answer to b) The beings in 4 woeful realms will be reborn in a) the same realm in case of animals b) other apaaya bhumis c) human realm d) one of 6 deva realms These cannot be reborn in any or rupa brahma realms or arupa brahma realms as apaaya beings can never develop jhanas at all. But they may very very rarely have kusala and may be reborn in deva realms directly. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44514 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:54am Subject: Kamma and where it exists htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma paccaya in the 24 conditional dhamma or 24 paccaya dhamma says something about kamma and its implications. There are 2 kinds of kamma- paccaya. They are sahajaata-kamma paccaya and naanakkhanika-kamma paccaya. Kamma is said to be 'the cetana which pushes the mind to commit an action'. This also comprises that 'the cetata that arises when an action is or was committed'. The cetana that arises and pushes the mind committing an action is sahajata-kamma. All the actions in the past did have cetanas when those actions were committed. The shade of that cetana cetasika always follow the current citta as long as citta arises. It is also kamma and such kamma is hard to be classified as realities. But they have always been there since actions were committed. Such kind of kamma is naanakkhanika kamma. Kamma do have the power to bring up their results. When the results are not given rise yet, kamma may wrongly be assumed as non-existing. But when the resulats are visibly coming, there is no way to escape. Is it fair 'to avoid what one did bad to other' by praying to someone who never exists? Can we stop kamma not to give their results? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44515 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (331) Evan_Stamato... This says it wonderfully... www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htootintnaing Sent: Monday, 18 April 2005 8:50 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (331) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm 4. asurakaaya bhumi or demaon realm 3. peta bhumi or ghost realm 2. tiracchaana bhumi or animal realm 1. niraya bhumi or hell realm The last 4 realms of 31 realms are called apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms. 6 deva realms and human realms are reborn with one of 8 mahavipaka cittas or one of 4 nana vippayutta mahavipaka cittas or sometimes beings are reborn with sugati ahetuka patisandhi citta called 'upekkha santirana citta of kusala origion. But all beings in any of above last 4 realms are reborn with 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusalavipaka santirana citta'. a) Where do they come from? b) Where are they going when they die in 4 woeful realms? Answer to a) The beings in 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms come from a) 6 deva bhumis b) 1 manussa bhumi or human realm c) 4 appaya bhumis d) reborn in the same realm except hell beings, ghosts, and demons Answer to b) The beings in 4 woeful realms will be reborn in a) the same realm in case of animals b) other apaaya bhumis c) human realm d) one of 6 deva realms These cannot be reborn in any or rupa brahma realms or arupa brahma realms as apaaya beings can never develop jhanas at all. But they may very very rarely have kusala and may be reborn in deva realms directly. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44516 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened nichiconn Hi, Lisa, I'm afraid you've lost me, but I get that way when talk turns to jhana(s). As far as I was able to follow, though, I'm pretty excited because I'd love to add your eye teeth to my bone collection. ["We are in jhana all the time, I would bet my eye teeth in this!"] Is there jhana while we are fast asleep? Is there jhana at the moments of seeing, hearing, etc? How about when we're caught up in fear or other nastiness? peace, connie 44517 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:13am Subject: Team Tep nichiconn Hi, Tep, Some excerpts from a few of the posts a "Mahanidana" search turns up: 12419: ...The aspect of anatta is also hard: As you know I've been considering Paticcasamuppada recently: in the Mahanidana sutta atthakatha it says that this is such a deep matter: "Its depth of penetration should be understood ..Deep is the meaning of consciousness as emptiness, abscence of an agent.." The tika continues: "Consciousness's meaning of emptiness is deep because consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self. As it is said "for a long time the uninstructed worldling has been attached to this, appropriated it, and misapprehended it thus; 'This is mine this I am , this is self'"(samyutta XII 61 ii94)(bodhi p66) 14917: ...Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases. (from bodhi The great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. gambhiiro, sa"nkhaaraana.m abhisa"nkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin bhavassa aayuuhanaabhisa"nkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho, 31644: ...Hopefully as wisdom grows, it will see the futility of the road to the goblin city for what it is;-) Some other "Mahanidana" search results you might like to see: 19499, 21601, 27710, 31644. peace, connie 44518 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Chris, Nina, Robert K, Mike and all How are you? I will get back to you later on this issue. For now, I will give a brief remark on Sarah's Point 5. "5. BB gives reasons for what he sees as the differences in the commentaries and Abhidhamma and the Nikayas. He speculates that the suttas were `concerned primarily with....winning liberation' whilst the commentators became more interested in theory, `from training to classification'. I think this is indicative of a lack of confidence in the true depth of the entire Tipitaka, especially those aspects we cannot understand or which are contrary to our beliefs. My daily reading and observation of Suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries do not allow me to accept BB's above speculation. All three groups of Pali texts are 'primarily and prepondrantly concerned with winning liberation'. BB's statement "the commentators became more interested in theory, `from training to classification'" is contrary to my reading and findings. In some Suttas, the Buddha may describe certain terms such as cittam only in general. In such cases, we are fortunate to discover that the commentaries make effort to describe those general terms in operational definitions. Operational definitions in modern science textbooks are what allow and enable scientists to carry out their experiments. Because of the Pali commentaries' unfailing attempts to offer us operational defintions of general vague terms in Suttas, I even dare to say that Pali commentaries serve as prototypes of science literature. In short, Pali commentaries not only explain theoretical aspects, but also facilitate practice and training. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Larry, (Nina, Tep, Kel, Suan, Ven Dhammanando & All), --- Larry wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in > my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on > concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do > you see it? .... S:Let me try to summarise, bearing in mind that I don't have access to the SN commentary which would be very useful. 1. Whereas `traditional Theravadins' and some of us here see the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to be in conformity, BB doesn't necessarily at all. Usually when we `agree to disagree' it is on this account, as in the conclusion on the Jhanas discussion. On `ayatanas', as usual, there are some helpful posts in `U.P.' Metta, Sarah ======= 44519 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: Phil's letter from Japan buddhatrue Hi Phil, Glad to see you back. Hope you enjoy your new place. Actually, at the end of this summer I will be moving to a new place in Cairo, a nicer place, so I am looking forward to that. One would think I would get out of Cairo, as much as I dislike it, but the pay is good and I have made some friends now. So, I'll guess I'll stick it out one more year at least. Hope your teaching is going well. You write: Phil: I often think of things my friend James has said to me in the past. They tend to stick in my mind for some reason, perhaps because they go against the grain. James: I don't know if I "go against the grain" that much (maybe it just seems so in this group), I just seem to write thought provoking things and people seem to like my writing- maybe that is why many of the things I write stick in your mind? To digress (which I like to do with you), I remember when I was building web sites for a living and I was about to go to Thailand to become a monk, I went to a client's house in another city to help her understand a web site I built for her- and how to update it when I had gone away. The funny thing is that this woman sold erotic candy through her web site; I don't even want to describe the types of things I had to look at for hours at a time! LOL! Well, I had my own Yahoo Buddhist group at that time where I posted various Buddhist writings, and this client was a member of my group. When I went to her house on this one occasion, I noticed that next to her printer she had a stack of some of my writings from the Buddhist group. I was very surprised and asked her why she printed some of the posts and she told me that she wanted the hard copies because she liked to read them over and over again. Now, here is a woman who makes erotic candy for a living, isn't a Buddhist, and finds my writing about Buddhism so interesting she wants to read them again and again. It was at that moment I knew there must be something to my writing. Later, the chief editor of the Buddhist Publication Society (the new one, not B.B.) wanted to publish some of these writings in their newsletter.* So, it may just be my writing that affects you, not any "going against the grain". BTW Phil, I hope your book writing at your new location is going well. Phil: Well, I do read suttas (still concentrating on khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta) but I must admit I am now more drawn to Abhidhamma study. James: Okay, here are some publications you might enjoy reading: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhaultsci.pdf I have been reading quite a few of buddhanet's e-books but I haven't read these yet. I hope to get around to them someday. Anyway, hope you don't stay away from the group for so long again. Your presence and interesting posts are a pleasure to both sides of the dividing line. Metta, James * However, not everyone likes my writing or my ideas. A minor publisher wrote to me that my writing was pure drivel and that I shouldn't attempt to write anything again until I was a monk for at least 10 years! So, I guess the saying's true, you can't please everyone! ;-) 44520 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Hi James - I fully agree with your comment : "This group is so busy that, if you let it, it can suck your life away". The team that manages the U.P. system is doing a great job -- the team members must have spent a big chunk of their time maintaining it. Sincerely, Tep ---------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: James (or anyone else) - why not consider opening a file with > your own alternative set of 'James's U.P.' (or any other name)in > whatever format you like? > > James: This is kind of you to offer, and demonstrates a clear sense > of openness that I appreciate (things are getting better), but I > don't know if this would be such a good idea. I don't want to put > myself into that much of an adversarial role (you may not see it > that way, but I'm sure others would). I could just name it "Even > More Useful Posts"! ;-)). Not only that, it would be difficult for > me to determine the posts which would make the cut: many, many posts > are useful for different people at different times. I would > probably end up picking posts because they were well-written, and > that isn't always the best criteria. Not only that, it would take a > lot of my time because I would have to read each of the posts, and > that would take away from my other dhamma activities. This group is > so busy that, if you let it, it can suck your life away. So, > anyway, thanks for the offer but I think I will pass. However, > since you have made this suggestion, you won't find me saying > another negative comment about your U.P. again, ever. > > Metta, > James 44522 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas buddhistmedi... Hi RobertK - Ven. Bodhi's inclination to take some ancient commentaries not seriously should not disappoint us. I don't think he has rejected all commentaries as useless. Whatever he disagrees with, he gives a clear reasoning as to why he doesn't like it -- this indicates the strong confidence he has in his intelligence. Well, we too have our good intelligence and inclination to choose what we want to believe! Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > -Dear Sarah, > I have expressed my gratitude for venerable Bodhi's translations and > his replies to dsg on several occasions. However it is unfortunate > that he persists in expressing his doubts about the Theravada. His > stature as the worlds leading Engish translator of the Pali means > that his views are convincing to many. This can lead to > Dhammantaraya. > Robertk 44523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results nilovg Dear Tep, very good remarks and they invite to considering more. I have a try. op 16-04-2005 19:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > > II. Sarah's Controversial Points > -------------------------------------------- > > 1. Whether we are in front of the computer, at work, the theatre, in a > quiet place or even seemingly `being busy doing nothing', there can > be awareness with right effort at such times. > > 2. If there's any attempt to make restrictions or impose limits, it will lead > to trouble because of the idea of self. We should feel encouraged > rather than discouraged that there are no limits to when sati > (awareness) and panna (understanding) can arise. > > 3. The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or > activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes > for particular results. > > 4. It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead > to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to > see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see > the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is > lobha trying to do something different. > > A Reminder : > ------------------ > Are the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states wrong > because "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order > to control what arises"? ---------------- Nina: There is nothing wrong so long as we remember that it is right effort, accompanying right understanding that do the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states. We have to listen again and again in order to really understand that it is a conditioned dhamma, not self. > Tep's Response to Sarah's Points > -------------------------------------------------- > > I.1 We must be quite advanced in the practice to be able to be aware > and know our mental states "at any time": this ability requires both > mindfulness(sati) and thorough comprehension(sampajanna). You > have to be an Ariya-puggala. ----------------- Nina: also an ariya puggala had to begin at one point in time. At any time: this does not mean all the time. At any time: also when we are sad and discouraged or have to experience unpleasant objects. We should not chose a particular time, then there is the idea of self and that obstructs. -------------- Tep: I.2 Not only awareness but also knowing the "All" (sabba dhamma) the > way they really are (yatabhuta-dassana). Then we will realize > that 'this is not mine, this is not I, this is not my atta'. [MN 149] ------------ N: It begins with intellectual understanding and considering whatever reality appears in our life. The yatabhuta-dassana is a result of vipassana ñaana that develops in stages. It cannot arise in the beginning. --------------- T: I.3 True. When we can watch and know all dhammas as 'just > dhammas' with no 'self' involved, then it is yathabhuta-nana-dassana. It > is also samma-ditthi, ------------- N: We learn gradually that whatever appears is just a dhamma, but there is not yet samma-ditthi in the beginning. ------------- T: .... But we have to be noble disciples first. ------- N: sati and paññaa can begin. If we think,we have to be noble disciples first, we put off the development of understanding. T: I.4 With yathabhuta-nana-dassana you don't have to fight lobha -- > because lobha has been abandoned. ---------- N: The sotaapanna sees realities as they are, but he still has lobha. He has eradicated wrong view. ----------- T: "However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing > & seeing forms... one is not infatuated with > the eye... forms... [MN 149] ---------- N: True, one can become less infatuated, but only the anagami has eradicated attachment to sense objects. ------------- T: II.1 For a worldling (puthujjana) like you and I, when we are in a quiet > place, busily doing nothing, our minds just wander. There is little > awareness and little discernment, our minds simply follow objects > (armamanas) through the sense doors. We can easily become > sleepy! But if we are Ariya-puggalas, then we are able to overcome > hindrances and what you were talking about is true. ----------------- N: There is a process of development and this takes time; pañña can grow little by little. Beginning with intellectual understanding and considering different dhammas that appear, as we can do right now while considering what we are talking about. Sleepiness: it is real, it is nama, and it can be understood as a conditioned dhamma. Is it possible to begin now instead of thinking of the end result which is far away? What do you think? ---------- T: II.2 "Restrictions and imposed limits" are for the purpose of restraining > the sensing faculties in order to perfect the indriya-samvara-sila. > "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the > ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with > the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the > appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that > through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would > arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his > senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). ---------- N: Exactly, there are no limits. The objects of awareness are all the objects appearing through the six doors as we read in the sutta quoted above. ---------------- T: Also, please study the following sutta (AN X.60). Is this sutta > wrong "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to > control what arises"? > > "There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of > sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of > existence. ..... N: This is done with vipassana ñaana that has been developed to pahaana pariñña (clear comprehension of the degree of abandoning). There is no self doing it. ------------- T: II.3 Remember what the Buddha told his monks to sleep only 4 hours a > night and dedcicate themselves to medition the rest of the night? > > "And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? ----------- N: This is for the monks but it can be applied with moderation by laypeople. This is not in order to control, but there can be conditions that one is less attached to sleeping. It depends on the individual. There is no rule that one has to. ----------- T: II.4 You dont feel "low", or "discouraged, or sad, if you follow the four > foundations of mindfulness practices of the Satipatthana Sutta. You > would put aside greed and distress with reference to the world. You > would achieve samma-ditthi. You would overcome hindrances! ------ N: The world is the five khandhas, the Co explains. What you mention is the result of the development of pañña. It is human to feel low, but this can be realized as only thinking about oneself. One clings. Understanding this helps already. **** Nina. 44524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] vancaka dhammas nilovg Dear Connie, perfect. Thank you very much, Nina. op 18-04-2005 08:42 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > They're listed in UP's: > > Cheating (vancaka) Dhammas > 3543, 3544, 3545, 10517 44525 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. nilovg Hi Matheesha, I really do not know what to answer. Let each person find out for himself what is true and genuine and what not. Nina. op 18-04-2005 02:38 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in > Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve > the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. 44526 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (332) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread starts with discussion on ralities that we can test ourselves. These realities are ultimate ones. Nothing is more right than these ultimate realities. They are 1. consciousness or mind or citta 2. mental accompaniment or mental factors or cetasika 3. material or matter or physical things or easy-to-seen-thing or rupa 4. absolute peace or ultimate calmness or liberation or nibbana Each dhamma has been thoroughly discussed in many of Dhamma Thread posts. Citta cannot arise alone. Citta is always accompanied by a number of cetasikas. At least 7 cetasikas accompay a citta as in the case of panca-vinnana citta or 5-sense-consciousness or 'mind or mental state when one of 5 senses is directly experienced'. These 7 universal mental factors or universal cetasikas are 1. contact or phassa 2. feeling or vedana 3. volition or cetana 4. perception or sanna 5. one-pointedness or ekaggata 6. mental life or jivitindriya 7. attention or manasikara This means that when sight is directly seen by eye or when sound is directly heard by ear or when smell is directly smelled by nose or when taste is directly tasted by tongue or when touch-object is directly touched by body there are 1. contact which introduces sight and eye or sound and ear or smell and nose or taste and tongue or touch-object and body ( phu + assa ) 2. feeling of indifferent feeling that is not good or not bad in case of the first 4 senses. Or feeling of pleasant feeling in case of body-consciousness or kaayavinnana citta of kusalavipaka citta. Or feeling of unpleasant feeling in case of body-consciousness or kaayavinnana citta of akusalavipaka citta. (veda + naa ) 3. volition which urges citta to become consciousness, contact to introduce the object with citta and other accompaniments, feeling to feel the object, perception to perceive the object, one-pointedbess to go to (gata) one object( Eka), mental life to support citta and other mental factors, attention to attend the object. ( ceto + tana ) 4. perception which perceives the object (sa + anna) 5. one-pointedness to go to just one and only one object ( eka + ggata) 6. mental life which supports with life to citta and other 6 cetasikas (jivi.m + atta + indriya) 7. attention which attends the object ( mana + si + kaara ) Because of these accompanying cetasikas, citta has different names. Again citta has to depend on rupa in different ways and rupa have been discussed to some extent. Citta has different functions and this will depend on which cetasikas arise together with citta. Because of these different functions of citta, cittas seem to be a single block and is assumed as atta. This apparent body deludes us that there are beings. These beings and they cittas have been currently discussed. 4 bhumis or 4 realms, 4 patisandhi or 4 rebirths, and 4 causes of death have all been discussed in the recent posts on Dhamma Thread. There are kamma. Kamma are hard to sense as they are not like entities even though they are entities. That is kamma is not citta, not cetasika, not rupa, not nibbana. Some may argue that kamma is a mental factor. This may be right just for some point of view and this will not be true for all kamma. Kamma are being discussed in the coming posts on Dhamma Thread. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44527 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas nilovg Dear Sarah, I have the Co in Thai as well as in Pali of SN 35:24 Abandonment. For the English I only have PTS. I do not translate word by word. I hope to get back on the points raised, but I would like to see any > commentary notes first if possible, 44528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 152 and Tiika. nilovg Dear Htoo, op 18-04-2005 12:26 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) attention is among the four > cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary > factors > (yevaapanaka). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: What are the four cetasikas? I could not read above character of > 'Or-whatever-dhammas'. What is that? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina:Vis. Ch XIV, 133 Note 59. Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1) N: The list of the Dhammasangani is not exhaustive. This means, not all cetasikas are mentioned by name. There are four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors. These are: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara), evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). These are mentioned in the Anupada sutta (M. N. no 111). The Expositor (p. 174, 175) deals with these, but includes also the five cetasikas which do not arise with every kusala citta, (aniyata, inconstant) thus it classifies the supplementary factors as ninefold. The five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. These last arise sometimes [but not always], and when they arise they do not do so together. ----------------------- > Htoo: We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.a. p. 56): > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Is 'Co.' commentaries? Maybe I am negligent. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina: yes. I refer to the English translation by Wijjeratne and Gethin. They translated the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii, you have in Burmese. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina: All bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the rebirth- > consciousness, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I read this many times. But may I ask you a question? > > When the 2nd retention consciousness or 2nd tadaarammana citta passes > away, where does the object come from for life-continuum > consciousness or bhavanga citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina: The same object as the rebirth-consciousness. ------------ Nina. 44529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Matheesha, just butting in. op 17-04-2005 19:54 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Hi Geoff, > Could you explain what you mean that jhana is impossible without > developing panna. I have read similar statements in the suttas but > found it rather cryptic. Is what you mean by panna, knowing the object > of meditation very well here rather than seeing thilakkana or arising > and passing away? ---------------- N: Paññaa and strong mindfulness are necessary. The Yogavacara should not just in theory know about kusala citta and akusala citta (with the hindrances), but there must be direct knowledge of the different cittas when they arise. Paññaa should know the sobhana cetasikas that are the jhanafactors and the akusala cetasikas that are the hindrances. Paññaa in samatha does not realize the tilakkhana, but it must have a precise, direct knowledge of cittas and cetasikas that arise. Otherwise calm, which is temporary freedom from defielements, cannot be developed. How could there be freedom from the hindrances if it is not known what they are and when they arise? ----------- M: I dont think I have come across any differentiation between > supramundane jhana and mundane jhana in the suttas. Any ideas about > this? ------------ N: Lokuttara jhanacittas experience nibbaana. Sometimes right concentration of the eightfold Path is defined as the jhanas. The supramundane Path has right concentration that is supramundane. I cannot hand you sutta texts here. Nina. 44530 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon and Matheesha, J: if I have understood you correctly, you take the view that those same disciples must have attained mundane jhana (even though there is no indication of this in the suttas in question either), and I think you see this as a matter of doctrine. I'd be interested to know the passages that proclaim this doctrine ------- I see this, not as a matter of doctrine (I view the path as being functional and not fundamentalist), but as a matter of pragmatism, based on my own experience (not that I'm claiming any supramundane paths/fruitions), and the experience of highly realized teachers such as Ajahn Chah, as I interpret what they`re teaching. IMO the three lower paths/fruitions are not a one shot affair, after which there's no possibility of regression even if one undergoes no further bhavana. Such a view is overly idealistic and doesn't take into account the complexity of the conditioned mind or human behavior. Jhana, which is nothing more than an uplifted, concentrated mind, is experientially necessary to attain (and also to maintain once attained) the three lower paths/fruitions, without backsliding into discursive restlessness and reification of conditioned phenomena, and other hindrances/negative emotions (kilesa). But again, what I mean by jhana is *not* a state devoid of sensory form perception. Such a state is in no way necessary for anything. The notion of Ajahn Brahmavamso that such a state is necessary is based on applying the commentarial definition of jhana onto sutta statements such as AN IX.36: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said." (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) And this is precisely the problem with the commentarial definition of jhana. It fails to account for statements such as this (there are others, see Dhammapada XXV, verse 372, for example), which say that there is no panna w/o jhana and no jhana w/o panna. Certainly these statements aren't referring to the jhanic state defined in the commentaries wherein there can be no panna. But while jhana as I understand it, and as defined in the suttas, is not a state devoid of sensory perception, it is a state that is more conditionally developed (refined) than what is often taught by `dry insight' teachers, i.e. choiceless awareness with no effort to steady and unify the mind with a particular object. And as anyone who has practiced in a monastic or retreat environment for an extended period of time will attest, such choiceless awareness without developing the jhana factor of calm abiding is not merely unskillful, it's downright unpleasant. This, I believe, is why some people notice that they have less patience and are more easily agitated after a ten day 'dry vipassana' retreat than they were before the retreat. Surely retreat practice should make one less agitated and not more so. But if the retreatant just sits there, observing whatever arises without any skillful employment of mental unification and the pleasant and tranquil experience such mental unification engenders, then a retreat can be more like torture than meditation. And this, ultimately, is why misinterpreting jhana and then developing a path of dry insight is unskillful and will probably never lead to any stable ongoing experiential discernment (panna). The Buddha, through trial and error, realized for himself that the eightfold path must fully integrate ethical conduct (sila), meditation (samadhi which is jhana), and discernment (panna) for it to be optimally efficacious. Without all three it just doesn't work. J: is it the fact that samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, or are there other specific passages also? --------- Yes, it seems clear to me that jhana in the sutta sense, is an essential path factor for all of the above mentioned reasons (and probably many more). The path is a very subtle integration of sila, samadhi, and panna. J: what would you see as being the development of vipassana/panna as one is reading this post or composing a reply; or what passages from the texts do you see as addressing this occasion/situation? --------------- Aniccanupassana would be a good place to start :-)). I don't think there's much disagreement here (although I don't think clear seeing, i.e. vipassana, of 17 cittas per rupa, etc., is necessary for panna -- and could quite possibly be another merely theoretical notion of the commentators). J: The idea of the so-called 'jhana factors' as being the *object* of jhana is one I have not come across before. Where exactly do you find this stated in the texts, and is it said what happens to the object that was the object of samatha bhavana up to the time of jhana consciousness arising (e.g., the kasina, the reflection, or whatever)? --------------- That piti and sukha are the focus of jhana seems to me the implicit injunction of AN V.28/MN 77, which to my knowledge is the most graphic image/simile regarding jhana expressed in the suttas (if anyone is aware of others I`d very much like to read them). As to the efficacy of taking piti and sukha as object, this is borne out by experience. As for what happens to the object of samatha, this I don't think is definitively expressed in the suttas. But it's clear that the form object is no longer the main focus of attention as AN IX.34 states "If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him." Again, I don't see it stating that perception of form must cease, rather attention to perception of form must cease. There is a subtle but definite distinction here. And I would suggest, again based on experience, that once jhana is established and steadied, one can then return to contemplation of any of the five aggregates as stated in AN IX.36. This is the only explanation for the statements in the suttas that there can be no panna w/o jhana. M: Could you explain what you mean that jhana is impossible without developing panna. -------------- You are asking the flipside of the this/that conditional relationship between jhana and panna. Yes, it is stated in the suttas that there can be no jhana w/o panna (Dmp XXV.372). This shows just how subtly interconnected all the path factors of the eightfold path are. This is borne out by experience, and its very difficult to fully explain just how integral the eightfold path is, and just how unskillful/unproductive it is to attempt to sever the eighth limb of the path (or radically redefine it in terms that bear little resemblance to the suttas). But it's (one of the) purpose(s) of panna to engender renunciation. Renunciation is necessary for jhana. Jhana is necessary for deeper panna. Deeper panna engenders deeper renunciation. Deeper renunciation makes jhana more effortless. More effortless jhana makes panna more stable and naturally present. Etc., etc.. This is just how it works. All path factors condition all other path factors. M: I dont think I have come across any differentiation between supramundane jhana and mundane jhana in the suttas. Any ideas about this? ------------- I would suggest that this is the full implication of AN IX.36: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. ***He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'***" (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) Inclining toward the deathless is IMO precisely the lokuttara path whereby one clearly discerns the futility of all conditioned states of mind and comes to rest in the unconditioned. Ajahn Buddhadasa was brilliant to recognize that this is the attitude of nonfashioning (atammayata), stated in the suttas: "[R]elying on non-fashioning, abandon & transcend the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness [i.e. conditioned jhana]. Such is its abandoning, such its transcending." MN 137 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) "One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" -- MN 140 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) The fruitional mental attitude of nonfashioning is now being taught by Ajahn Amaro, Ajahn Thanissaro, and other forest monk teachers. But if we're going to talk about lokuttara jhana we have to understand that this is an unconditioned state of consciousness based on highly efficacious and radically nondual panna. This is IMO (as far as I understand the commentarial position to be rigidly dualistic) where Dhamma and the commentarial position part ways. We could talk more about this once we get through this jhana discussion. Metta, Geoff 44531 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas buddhatrue Hi Robert K. and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > -Dear Sarah, > I have expressed my gratitude for venerable Bodhi's translations and > his replies to dsg on several occasions. However it is unfortunate > that he persists in expressing his doubts about the Theravada. His > stature as the worlds leading Engish translator of the Pali means > that his views are convincing to many. This can lead to > Dhammantaraya. > Robertk It won't lead to Dhammantaraya if it is true; which I believe it is. I am quite happy that B. Bodhi voiced these doubts so strongly and openly to this group. B. Bodhi is an expert and what he has to say should be taken very seriously. Really, this isn't a matter of who is more enlightened than whom; this is simply a matter of literary analysis. B. Bodhi has painstanking translated hundreds of suttas, checked and cross-checked among various translations, and he is a bhikkhu of the highest regard- and here you are suggesting that he has committed a danger to the dhamma for telling the truth about his findings! Think about it. What I openly wonder about is if B.B. voiced these objections to some of the commentaries while he was still with the Buddhist Publication Society, or did he wait until he left his position? I don't have the whole picture, but I think he waited until he left his position. This says something about the politics and the pressures present in the Theravada Sangha. Metta, James 44532 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:00pm Subject: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught Evan_Stamato... Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in world. Which four? "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations. "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in world." Revised: Saturday 2005.01.29 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html 44533 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. sunnaloka Hi Nina, N: As I said to Howard, all I know is from reading scriptures, Vis. and Co. ------------- I hope you can now begin to appreciate that the commentarial definition of jhana doesn't fully account for sutta statements such as Dhammapada XXV.372: There's no jhana for one with no discernment [panna], no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) If the commentarial definition of jhana is the only definition of jhana then all who endeavor to develop panna must necessarily attain the state devoid of sensory form perception. IMO this notion has no scriptural foundation. IMO accepting commentarial positions without questioning them or connecting them to one's own experience isn't very useful. If it works for you, so be it. But with all due respect, and I mean this sincerely (recognizing that you are one of the main contributors to this group and probably one of the founders), do you not think it rather disingenuous to teach the commentarial position regarding jhana as being scripturally factual and beyond error without having practiced and attained for oneself what they promote as jhana? Because it seems to me that if one hasn't done so, one is just a mere theoretical buddhologist, and should clearly indicate when discussing meditation (samadhi/jhana) and discernment (panna), that one doesn't know from experience what one is talking about. I mean this respectfully and sincerely with a nonaggressive attitude. N: I am amazed at your endurance. How could you hold out? How could others hold out? ------------- I think you may be misunderstanding what I meant: sitting for 8 1/2 hours but alternating 50 min. sittings with 10 min. walking, etc. :-)). But I did meet a Chinese monk once who could sit for over 6 hours at a time (full lotus). He was ordained in Master Hsuan Hua's lineage. Many of these monks also follow the austerity of never lying down. They ?sleep? about 3 1/2 hour per night in full lotus position. Also, the monastery where I stayed has an adjoining 3 yr. retreat facility where the retreatants are to remain upright in their meditation boxes all night, to develop dream yoga (lucid dreaming) as a prelude to attaining fully conscious deep sleep. N: You must be motivated to cultivate jhana. What benefit do you seek from it, do you find it helpful? --------------- As already explained in prior posts, I see jhana as an integral part of the path. Didn't the Buddha tell us to practice as if our heads were on fire? N: Lobha always plays us tricks, and it comes in disguise! ---------------------- Yes samsara is relentless. N: That is what also matters to me: pragmatic every day realism. I know your intentions: just stimulating discussion. ----------------- I'm glad you understand my intentions, and that you also value pragmatic Dhamma. I would suggest that the Thai (and Western) forest masters/teachers have the same pragmatic values, and what started with Ajahn Buddhadasa's interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka is now being continued by teachers like Ajahn Thanissaro and Ajahn Amaro, who seem to be reclaiming the suttas from the theoretical and idealistic interpretation of the ancient commentators, and giving the suttas back to sincere contemplatives who wish to practice the Dhamma the way the Buddha and early disciples practiced. It worked for them and could work for us if we let go of our theoretically fabricated baggage, take up the suttas, and put the injunctions to practice. Metta, Geoff 44534 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught sunnaloka Hi Evan, I didn't go to the trouble of looking up the romanized Pali version of AN IV.94, but based on Ajahn Thanissaro's usual translation of terms, what he has here as 'tranquility' is most likely samatha, and not jhana. This is also indicated in the Access to Insight synopsis of the Anguttara Nikaya, which states for this sutta: "The Buddha explains how correct meditation practice consists of the development of both insight (vipassana) and tranquillity (samatha)." I'm not sure who writes these sutta contexts -- Ajahn Thanissaro or the Access to Insight webmaster, but the text in question is most likely talking about samatha and vipassana -- both of which are mental factors for attainment of jhana (IMO). As for the role of vipassana, please see 'One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice,' by Ajahn Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html And so what you name this post: Jhana/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught, should actually be: Samatha/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught. Metta, Geoff 44535 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught Evan_Stamato... Geoff, From the Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha" anthology, note 46 states: AA explains internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), ... Kind Regards, Evan Hi Evan, I didn't go to the trouble of looking up the romanized Pali version of AN IV.94, but based on Ajahn Thanissaro's usual translation of terms, what he has here as 'tranquility' is most likely samatha, and not jhana. This is also indicated in the Access to Insight synopsis of the Anguttara Nikaya, which states for this sutta: "The Buddha explains how correct meditation practice consists of the development of both insight (vipassana) and tranquillity (samatha)." I'm not sure who writes these sutta contexts -- Ajahn Thanissaro or the Access to Insight webmaster, but the text in question is most likely talking about samatha and vipassana -- both of which are mental factors for attainment of jhana (IMO). As for the role of vipassana, please see 'One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice,' by Ajahn Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html And so what you name this post: Jhana/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught, should actually be: Samatha/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught. Metta, Geoff 44536 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings and salutations foamflowers Hi Sarah, You can call me Lisa H., thank you for the lovely welcome and I live in the United States, in the state of Illinois in the city of Chicago right near the lake over by the Gold Coast area. I have a lovely library that includes ===> The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Hardcover) by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bodhi (Editor) The Long Discourses of the Buddha : A Translation of the Digha Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover)by Maurice Walshe The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover) by Bhikkhu Nanamoli I am a book worm and actually do know a bit of Pali and I will pick up books that address the areas I'm working on in meditation. I will research words that I don't understand so I can put the words into the context of the sentence and the passage in which it is used. I understand that pali and sanskrit words have many meanings and change depending on how they are used in a sentence. That makes the research even more interesting because reading the doctrine also depends on ones own insight and wisdom. To really understand the message of sutra you have to actually be there and experience it to get the full meaning. Do you have an area on the board where you place meditation practices? I have written mine down and I wondered if anyone else had written their personal practice down and posted it on the board. It would be nice to have feed back on what is going right and what could be corrected by those wise in the ways of anapansati and vipassana meditation. With Metta, Lisa H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa (M?),(Chris & Evan in passing) > > Many thanks for your great intro about your background in Dhamma and for > the quotes at the end. I'm sure others will be very interested in it too. > > I hope you enjoy your time and find it useful here on DSG. Please join in > any threads or start your own anytime. <...> 44537 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened sunnaloka Hi Lisa, I like your exuberance, and also your clearly experiential discernment (panna) that words are only ever mere words, and no word or conceptual grouping of words can ever transcend relative truth. Once I was at a week long teaching by Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche (who is a Geshe -- i.e. a highly educated scholar -- as well as yogi). The teaching was on a very fruitional Mahamudra meditation manual titled 'Clarifying the Natural State,' and during a question period after a teaching session, a very sincere Western monk asked Rinpoche: "What is rigpa?" Now rigpa, for those unfamiliar with Tibetan, is the translation of the Sanskrit 'vidya' which is 'vijja' in Pali, and this term plays a key role in both Dzogchen and Mahamudra practice, as it is considered to be one's innate transcendent (unconditioned) awareness, the recognition of which is the basis, the path, and the fruition of practice. But at this particular moment, when asked, "What is rigpa?", Rinpoche answered: "A word." And of course this was followed by one of Rinpoche's characteristic ear to ear grins, which qualified his answer for anyone who understood just what 'rigpa' is. And so we should never let words or concepts veil our immediate experience. If we just blindly attempt to interpret our experience based on some theoretical 'belief set' then we are never going to transcend the madness of samsara. You seem to understand this very well. > I think jhana is the subtle conscious which is always there and most > people just aren't aware of it. When jhana is a verb its the method > and my teacher told me to watch out and not get attached to the > method. > > When Jhana is used as a noun it is the subtle consciousness or as > some of my friends call it, "The Super Consciousness", said in a deep > voice that echos as it fades away. We are in jhana all the time, I > would bet my eye teeth in this! Now I agree that we are 'in' our innate consciousness all the time, and from a Sutta Pitaka perspective, this is termed either clear knowing (vijja), or featureless consciousness (vinnana anidassana), or luminous mind (pabhassara citta). This is our innate natural state which neither comes nor goes because it is unconditioned (asankhata). Realizing and then maintaining this natural state is the cessation of suffering (dukkha nirodha) -- the fruition of the path. But most sentient beings are unaware of this fact, and they never experience vijja because it is always defiled (covered over) by avijja. This is where jhana comes in. Through jhana we can come to see (vipassana/panna) that all conditioned states of mind -- even subtle and refined jhanic states -- are anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and thereby incline toward the deathless element (amata dhatu) which is inseparable from ones original mind. Without such an attitude of nonfashioning (atammayata) the supramundane paths and fruitions would be unattainable. And so I would suggest that jhana is part of the method -- and as such is more verb than noun. And clear knowing (vijja) is the noun -- so to speak. But what's in a word anyway? In the end they're all relative :-0 :-)) Metta, Geoff 44538 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught sunnaloka Hi Evan, E: AA explains internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) >as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), ... ----------- What is the AA? Geoff 44539 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hi Nina, You are welcome to butt in anytime :) N:> How could there be freedom from the hindrances if it is not known what they > are and when they arise? M: Ok, so it is that kind of panna. I can see something in Geoff's idea that it has to do with renunciation. An eminent Ajhan (forget his name) once expressed an idea that it was the panna to work around the hindrences. Somehow I get the feeling we still dont have the full picture here. Panna has a broad meaning here I think. Maybe something to with the fact that Sathi leads to both Panna and Samadhi. That Samma sathi is the precurser to both Samma samadhi and samma gnana which ultimately leads to samma vimukhthi. To have developed panna which takes a lot of mindfulness, there would be concurrent development upto jhana levels of samadhi. Even though we might practice jhana or vipassana divorced from each other now, sathipatthana seems to develop them concurrently. There is a sutta in which the buddha says 'to those who know samatha, I teach vipassana, and vice versa' So to say that anyone who practices one after the other is wrong and not effective, is not quite correct either. This just leads me to think that there are many paths to the top. N:> The supramundane Path has right concentration that is supramundane. M: Fair enough. The qualitative difference should be the presence of panna? Do you think if there were less attachment to the dhamma here there would be less emails? :) metta Matheesha 44540 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hi Geoff, Yes, it is stated in the suttas that there > can be no jhana w/o panna (Dmp XXV.372). This shows just how subtly > interconnected all the path factors of the eightfold path are. This > is borne out by experience, and its very difficult to fully explain > just how integral the eightfold path is, and just how > unskillful/unproductive it is to attempt to sever the eighth limb of > the path (or radically redefine it in terms that bear little > resemblance to the suttas). M: As i said in a post to Nina, there is a sutta in which the buddha talks of how he would teach samatha to those who know vipassana, vipassana to those who know samatha, both to those who know neither, and to those who know both - encourage them to develop it further. This seems to suggest that there is no clear temporal alignment in the practice of these two for them to be effective at the end of the day. The only time they NEED to come together is when the path becomes the supramndane path, in my opinion and there is an issuing forth into samma vimukhthi. G:> "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana.' M: This could still be (mundane) jhana could it not, because panna is born only after jhana is attained when another practice of vipassana is superimposed on it. I personally dont think there is a big qualitative difference which deserve the special qualification of supramundane jhana. A sothapanna would know that even jhana is anicca, dukkha and anatta, arising from cause and effect mechanisms, made up of nama and rupa components, without any doubt in his mind. He would also know that there is bliss beyond this as well. But when he attains a jhana ..its still jhana. He has access to the knowledge if he want it. Its just a tool that anyone can acomplish if they tried. Consciousness which does not settle on anything, where no sankhara are made is something to be experienced, only the path can be taught. The words dont reach. much peace Matheesha ----------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXII.53 Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), established on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), established on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), established on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible. "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" See also: SN XII.38 Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html 44541 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Evan, Its called Devenapathis Samatha Vipassana meditation centre. I'm awaiting their contact details from a friend in Sri Lanka. Yes, they do have two instructors who teach in English. Can send you a bit more detail if you are interested. There are no branches anywhere else though. metta Matheesha 44542 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Howard, No, but I do know of one practitioner who went there and achieved quite a lot who lives in US. But unfortunatley the usefulness of that might be limited. :) metta Matheesha 44543 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your detiled analysis. After considering it for a while I think I agree with B. Bodhi. I don't think he was discrediting the commentaries or abhidhamma pitaka but just acknowledging an historical difference. People in the 6th century BC just didn't think about concept and reality. It never occurred to them. This "Abandonment" sutta is a good case in point. If concepts are not included are we not to abandon them? This is a question that is trickier than it looks and, to my mind, it still hasn't been fully worked out. The problem is that the Buddha didn't specifically address this issue so we have to rely on commentators who we don't really know or else ignore the question all together or become a commentator ourself. I think the latter alternative is almost inevitable. Everyone's understanding is an interpretation based on his or her accumulations until there is direct seeing. Larry 44544 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Thanks for the friendly ramble in the other post. I am afraid to say that you conditioned reflection on just what erotic candies might be. As for the "go against the grain thing", it's not so much about your writing ability and go aginst the grain was not the right way to put it. I think there's a lack of diplomacy at times that cuts right to the chase. You lay out broadly-drawn prognosises (sp?) of people's ways of studying or discussing Dhamma, often lacking in generosity but at the same time containing some truth that is helpful to reflect on. You compared me once to a friendly puppy seeking approval and affection and you were bang on. I could perhaps compare you to some other kind of dog but I will stop that train of thought right here! After I went off line in February, an interesting point of yours was left hanging and I reflected on it occasionally. Here it is: > Phil: She's interested in what's happening here and now and > insists on that. That's why those talks are so good, and I hope you > have the mp3. If you stay open to it, and listen, you'll see the > appeal. I honestly don't know why you see her as being so misguided. > It's so pure, just bringing experience down to it's barest elements. > What is wrong or threatening about that? > > James: Phil, I was simply commenting on the first mp3 because that > is the one you had commented on. I haven't listened to all of the > mp3s. I commented just on what she mentioned in that first mp3. If > she reverses this position later on, then that is another matter. I > am not sure why she isn't consistent. > > I find nothing wrong with bringing people back to the present > moment; but, really, there is nothing extraordinary about that. I > could remind you to come back to the present moment until the cows > come home, is that really going to make a change in your mind? If > K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the > tools so that they will come back to the present moment without > depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people > self-reliant, not dependent. Ph: First of all, I think you would agree that there is no real need for us to continue discussing the pros and cons of Kh Sujin's approach, since neither of us seems to be in a mood for getting caught up in debates these days. As you know, they just go around and around and around. But I really would like to think about that "If K Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the tools so that they will come back to the present moment without depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people self-reliant, not dependent." It's an interesting point. Come to think of it, I would like to use that as one of my reflection points today. I will continue this post later. Thanks again for your post, and good luck with your move. By any chance will you be able to see the sphinx as you take a pee? On clear days, I can see Mt Fuji from a little window above the toilet as I perform my ablutions. It's very refreshing! Metta, Phil 44545 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Matheesha, Thank you for that information. If you have more information I would be interested. I would not be possible for me to practice there at the moment but in a few years time I may have the opportunity so if you can send me more information I would appreciate it. Kind Regards, Evan 44546 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Matheesha, This seems to be the centre. http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items04/101004-1.html With metta, Evan 44547 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:26pm Subject: (Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 169- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) philofillet Hi Nina and all I re-read this chapter the other day so let's see how much sunk in. > > i Which cittas are not accompanied by adhimokkha? Cittas accompanied by doubt or restlessness. Neither can find determination (adhimokka) re the object. > > ii Can adhimokkha arise in a sense-door process? The bare cittas see that see etc don't need determination to find the object, just as they don't need other particulars such as energy (virya) But "process" indicates more than the 10 bare cittas, doesn't it? Is determination needed by javana cittas in a sense door process? Sure. determination re the object is needed for kusala and akusala cittas except for the ones mentioned above. > > iii Can viriya be akusala? Of course. If people are inspired by the famous passage of the four right efforts and seek to cultivate them intentionally without right understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, there will be akusala. And leaving that point aside, since we are almost always ignorant of realities in the moment, and since there is so much akusala resulting from this ignorance in daily life, virya is predominantly akusala. Rare moments of right effort can be cultivated, however, so there is no need to feel discouraged by this. > > iv Viriya is saòkhåra dhamma. Why did the Buddha exhort > people to strive for wisdom although there is no self who > can put forth energy? Hmm. He saw into that nature of realities and knew that dhammas such as wisdom (panna) could be cultivated through mindfulness, and that when effort is accompanied by wisdom (as it must be to have any value)it would lead toward the gradual eradication of defilements such as self-view. He also knew that his teaching went against the way of the world (even in his day - how much more now!) and that people would misinterpret it and adapt it to the needs of self. > v What is right effort of the eightfold Path? If I recall correctly, the path factors are all cetasikas, so right effort would be the cetasika virya. It must arise with other path factors such as right view (panna) > > vi Which are the proximate causes for right effort? Hmm. There must be right understanding or the effort will not be right. There must be an object that has arisen, obviously. I don't know. > > vii How can right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? Patiently. Appreciation of moments of right effort, as rare as they are, will condition the arising of more. Please tell me more. > > viii At which moment is right effort of the eightfold Path be > developed? At any moment in which there is kusala citta. There must be right effort for kusala citta to arise. > > ix What is the object which right effort of the eightfold Path > experiences? I don't know. Thanks in advance for any feedback, Nina, or anyone else. Metta, Phil 44548 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 4/18/05 8:01:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > No, but I do know of one practitioner who went there and achieved > quite a lot who lives in US. But unfortunatley the usefulness of that > might be limited. :) > > metta > > Matheesha > ===================== Thanks. :-) Do you know what section of the U.S. s/he lives in? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44549 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Matheesha, M: As i said in a post to Nina, there is a sutta in which the buddha talks of how he would teach samatha to those who know vipassana, vipassana to those who know samatha, both to those who know neither, and to those who know both - encourage them to develop it further. This seems to suggest that there is no clear temporal alignment in the practice of these two for them to be effective at the end of the day. ----------------- Yes, this is clearly stated in AN IV.94 and AN II.30. One can begin with either samatha or vipassana, but IMO neither by itself is jhana. ---------------- "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.'â€? M: This could still be (mundane) jhana could it not, because panna is born only after jhana is attained when another practice of vipassana is superimposed on it. I personally dont think there is a big qualitative difference which deserve the special qualification of supramundane jhana. ----------------------- What I’ve been saying all along is that jhana is an essential path factor because it (A) stabilizes and unifies the mind, and (B) because it allows the yogi to see the conditionality of even jhanic consciousness, and thereby transcend it. I would suggest that vipassana isn’t superimposed upon jhana -- it’s an inherent mental factor of jhana as right samadhi. This is clearly indicatied in MN 111 -- even when one is focussing on the (samatha) jhana factors of piti and sukha -- one still clearly comprehends what is transpiring: "Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana -- applied thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness (vl. intent), desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention -- he ferrets them out one by one. Known to him they arise, known to him they remain, known to him they subside. He discerns, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remains unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers." -- MN 111, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu Otherwise one is simply blissing out -- which is only a temporal escape. Jhana performs a much more active function than just blissing out. If one just wants to bliss out, then take drugs. If one just wants to be in a state devoid of sensory form perception, then take lots of drugs :-)) (I’m only joking -- please don’t anyone take recreational drugs.) M: . I personally dont think there is a big qualitative difference which deserve the special qualification of supramundane jhana. ------------------------- That’s the point I was trying to make last time around. Jhana with panna naturally leads to atammayata -- nonfashioning. At this point there is no more attempt to become anything whatsoever. There’s no attempt to attain anything special or be anything special. M: A sothapanna would know that even jhana is anicca, dukkha and anatta, arising from cause and effect mechanisms --------------------------- Of course, but a streamwinner will probably still practice jhana. In my opinion there can be no supramundane jhana -- jhana is always mundane, i.e. it’s a conditioned phenomenon. IMO the commentarial tradition has the whole understanding of the lokuttara paths/fruitions entirely convoluted and mixed up because they don’t seem to have the slightest idea about the nonduality of conditioned and unconditioned phenomena. M: But when he attains a jhana ..its still jhana. He has access to the knowledge if he want it. Its just a tool that anyone can acomplish if they tried. ------------------- Agreed. M: Consciousness which does not settle on anything, where no sankhara are made is something to be experienced, only the path can be taught. The words dont reach. ------------------- Agreed. You mention SN XII.53 & SN XII.38 (which I don‘t currently have access to). SN XII.64 touches on the same principle: "Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?" "On the western wall, lord." "And if there is no western wall, where does it land?" "On the ground, lord." "And if there is no ground, where does it land?" "On the water, lord." "And if there is no water, where does it land?" "It does not land, lord." "In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&- form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair." ( tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) Metta, Geoff 44550 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi Lisa, > > I like your exuberance, and also your clearly experiential > discernment (panna) that words are only ever mere words, and no word > or conceptual grouping of words can ever transcend relative truth. > > Once I was at a week long teaching by Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche (who is > a Geshe -- i.e. a highly educated scholar -- as well as yogi). The > teaching was on a very fruitional Mahamudra meditation manual > titled 'Clarifying the Natural State,' and during a question period > after a teaching session, a very sincere Western monk asked > Rinpoche: "What is rigpa?" > > Now rigpa, for those unfamiliar with Tibetan, is the translation of > the Sanskrit 'vidya' which is 'vijja' in Pali, and this term plays a > key role in both Dzogchen and Mahamudra practice, as it is >considered to be one's innate transcendent (unconditioned) > awareness, > the recognition of which is the basis, the path, and >the fruition of practice. But at this particular moment, when asked, >"What is rigpa?", Rinpoche answered: "A word." And of course this was >followed by one of Rinpoche's characteristic ear to ear grins, which >qualified his answer for anyone who understood just what 'rigpa' is. Sunnaloka (Geoff) I would love to met Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche just to see that smile. I always get a silly grin on my face when I met teachers like that ....my words leave and I have no questions I just smile like a dope! I have been introduced to the word rigpa but not through my Lama friend we don't talk much we just meditate together once a week and I help out with putting Dhamma studies together for the group. I also help his lovely wife with the house and chores sometimes. She just had a baby and I was her helper for awhile...so cool! I found rigpa through my own studies and I will go back to it again to see if the word has anything else to say to me. I keep an eye open for synchronicity now (wink-wink). In my sharing of the books I've studied is the story of how I met my Lama friend. (my secret name for him is "Lama Pajama')...don't tell anyone. The first time I met him he had just finished teaching a yoga class and he was wearing something that looked like yellow pajamas and that is what I call him when I think of him in my prayers. It makes me smile and the metta flows.... Here are some of my favorite books from Tibetan Buddhism it's nice to find someone who knows about rigpa, very nice to meet you! My first Dhamma book from the Tibetan Traditions. "The Life And Teachings Of Naropa" Translated from the original Tibetan with philosophical commentary based on the oral transmmission by Herbert V. Guenther. I am still working on understanding this book and I've read it three times. The book is like trying to dance in the sky there is simply nothing to hold onto or stand on when I read it and I end up falling through myself. Mystics like Naropa talk to the heart not to the reasonable or logical mind....this book is one big ..Wow...I read it on a lark and it took me to places my imagination couldn't even go. One of the most unusual modern books on Tibetan Buddhism and Dhamma that I've read so far. It explains the feminine and male principles used in the Tibetan tradition and the role that women played in this beautiful and unique culture. "Dakini's Warm Breath" The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism," by Judith Simmer-Brown. Very well written and lovely citations to keep me reading and researching. Very scholarly in my limited opinion but warmed with much compassion and love for Dhamma. Simmer's book helped me sit on several insights that hatched into lovely paintings. I learned about Khandroma and Green Tara, which gave me a few insights that led me to my Lama friend who also is a Rinposche and a Tulku. I thought he might be a someone who could help me find a Dzogchen teacher and he turned out to be a friend I meditate with on Sundays. I love him and his wife and children very much and learned that friends make some of the best Dhamma teachers. "The Great Treatise on the Stages Of The Path To Enlightenment," by Tsong-Kha-Pa. These series of books remind me so much of my training through Goenka's vipassana retreats. I remember the Dhamma talks late at night after meditating from 4am until 9pm or working in the kitchen and managing the female sitters I would be very tired and listen to the Dhamma talks without much else going on in my head except the concentrated will focused on not falling asleep. The Dhamma talks given during that time of the day were kind of burned into my head I didn't have much to defend or any pretense by that time. When I read these books it was like coming home again. Very well written and organized, very easy to understand and put the methods into practice and so full of Dhamma I have to wear sun glasses to read the books! "The Perfection of Wisdom In Eight Thousand LInes & Verse Summary," Translated by Edward Conze. Some of the passages in this book made me weep they touched a part of my meditation I hadn't been able to put into words. How the Tathagata Knows the Word [270-74] 3. The Suchness of the world, the Suchness of the Arhats, The Suchness of Pratyekabuddhas, and the Suchness of the Jinas,-- As just one single Suchness free from existence, unaltering, Has the perfection of wisdom been understood by the Tathagata. 4. Whether the wise abide in the world, or whether they have gone to final Nirvana, Firmly established remains this fixed sequence of Dharmahood: "Dharmas are empty." It is the Suchness (tathata) which the Bodhisattvas understand. Therefore then have the Buddhas been given the name of 'Tathagatas.' 5. This is the sphere of the Guides, with their own powers, Who reside in the delightful forests of the perfection of wisdom. Although they fetch suffering beings out of the tree places of woe, Yet they never have anywhere the notion of a being. All I can say is...WOW....and sigh when I hit passages like that. I have to put the book down and just be still for a while. It takes me a long time to read Dhamma books sometimes when I get hit with the .....WOW....I can't move much...hahaha Right after I found the Prajnaparamita I stumbled upon Vimalakirti Sutra and I had some of the biggest insights and giggles during and after reading many of it's passages. It's an interesting experience to laugh while being hit by insight tests one's equanimity! It is a profound and sometimes funny sutra on how even Arahants and Bodhisattvas still have to struggle with the issues we all struggle with. Entering the Gate of Nondualism is my favorite chapter. Vimalakirti asked the Bodhisattvas how does one go about entering the gate of Nondualism? Each Bodhisattva gave a very wise and wonderful answer which clearly showed the reason why they had attained such positive fruits. In the end each Bodhisattva had given their opinion on how to enter the gate of Nondualism and they waited for Vimalakirti's acknowledgment on how wise and wonderful they were in their wisdoms and insights on what is beyond conceptual understanding. Vimalakirti did not say a word! I laughted so hard I am sure the people on the subway train I was riding to work with thought I was totally mad....lol...With this chapter on Entering the Gate of Nondualism preached, five thousand Bodhisattvas in the assembly were all able to enter the gate of nondualism and to learn to accept the truth of birthlessness. These sets of books are very heavy and made my cursing sankharas come and go like yellow and black hornets being shaken up in a fruit jar! I've been working my way through Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas" A Buddhist Psychology of Emptiness by David Ross Komito. Nagarjuna just cuts the tendons in every concept I have when it comes to reality as it is. He is so subtle that I don't even know I am bleeding until I crash from exhaustion from trying to worm my way around his using my concepts of reality against self grasping (Does that make any sense?) Anyway...trying to figure this guy out I got into "Madhyamika and Yogacara" by Gadjin M. Nagao. I needed another system to compare Madhyamika against because I really struggle with the total negation without a positive turn around that Madhyamika seems to present..(I still feel like cursing sometimes when I read certain passages! hahaha). Nagao helped me develop a better understand Madhyamika and also the Yogacara system, which if I understand it correctly has another step after negation, which is a turning around and ===> 1. Prayogika-jnana, knowledge held on the stage of preparatory practice. 2. nirvikalpa-jnana, non-discriminative wisdom or knowledge that is often called "fundamental wisdom" in the Sino-Japanese Buddhist traditions, and 3. tat-prsthalabdha-jnana, knowledge acquired subsequent to that. Knowledge (1) that is, preparatory knowledge is in the direction of "ascent" as it aims towards the fundamental wisdom. the latter knowledge, (3), that is, subsequent knowledge, is in the direction of "descent" as it results from the fundmental wisdom. I also looked into this system because I wondered how does what is without form walk in this world and talk to us enough to wake us to our own self made misery? Gotama could of just kept on sitting under his Bodhitree...why did he turn around and come back?.... Mahayana really gets into this issue. The Chapter on "Logic of Convertibility" in Nagao's book in really helped me understand the path of the Bodhisattva, the doctrine of sunyata and introduced me to technical terms used in the Mahayana tradition. I didn't get any Wow's from the book but I did get an excellent introduction into how linguistic analysis and philosophical concepts can also bring a stronger understanding when birthing intuition and insight which needs wisdom and experience to bring them into full bloom (personal opinion--Warning!---). I think Abhidhamma will also help me strengthen this area of study for me....I think it will, I may end up with a sankhara attack of cursings again! hahaha "Realizing Emptiness," Madhyamaka insight and meditation by Gen Lamrimpa translated by B. Alan Wallace. I should of read this first before I got hit by Nagarjuna it would of softened the blows. But hey, I got to look at my cursing sankharas up close and personal, thanks to Nagarjuna. "Realizing Emptiness," is a very easy read and gives little bite sized pieces on how to analyze experiences and see how easy it is to be led astray if I take my emotions, thoughts, feelings and reactions to sensations totally serious. It's amazing how much these works brought to mind my training in vipassana and anapanasati meditaion and the study of the Pali Canon. They helped me really take a good look at what I've been through in these last 15 years of Dhamma work. One more book and the reason why I looked into Tibetan Buddhism. "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State," by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Translated from the Italian by John Shane. This is my Lama friends teacher and this book helped me find him. Now that has become the most amazing journey of all which has just begun and ended at the same time! ....my first introduction to Dzogchen is when a friend asked my Lama friend if I needed empowerments for a certain lesson I was going to learn and he told her, "It's all in the mind." I got another huge ....Wow....which, I'm still sitting on waiting to hatch... oh wait..... there is no chicken or egg, no first or last.....:) Time to go feed the chickens and collect the eggs! hahaha With metta, Lisa 44551 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:34pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater sense of urgency and how the mind should be encouraged. We read: * "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense of urgency. These are the four, namely, birth, ageing, sickness and death, with the suffering of the states of loss as the fifth, and also the suffering in the past rooted in the round (of rebirth), the suffering in the future rooted in the round (of rebirth), and the suffering in the present rooted in the search for nutriment. And he creates confidence by recollecting the special qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. This is how he encourages the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged." * The “states of loss” mentioned by the Visuddhimagga are the rebirths which are “removed from the happy destiny” (XIX, 92, 93), they are rebirth in the animal world, in the “ghost world”, in the world of demons (asuras) or in hell planes. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44553 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I am pleased to see your reply that gives a different perspective than mine that was presented earlier to Sarah. I think the main issues underlying your discussion are as follows : -- The effort to do the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states is not wrong if it is accompanying right understanding. -- In order to really understand that it is a conditioned dhamma, not self , we have to listen again and again. -- The 'yatabhuta-dassana' is a result of vipassana n~aana that develops in stages. It cannot arise in the beginning. It begins with intellectual understanding and considering whatever reality appears in our life. -- If we think,we have to be noble disciples first, we put off the development of understanding. N: Is it possible to begin now instead of thinking of the end result which is far away? What do you think? T: I am really glad you asked! Because it is exactly my point too that all the qualities of the ariya-puggalas are the end goal of conscientious Buddhists (but it may not be apparent to you from my writings, and I apologize for the failure of communication). Hence we, the worldlings, should not talk about , or pretend that we see the "ariya light" at the end of the tunnel very bright and clear, here & now. Therefore, when someone tries to tell me not to have the 'self' or the ' I am' obsession in the practice, my reply is "hey, you are talking about my end result when my atta ditthi is gone. How could I get to the top of the building from the ground floor without walking up the stairs, or by using an elevator, or by a helicopter lifting?". Sure, as a worldling I now have both the 'I am' obsession, the atta-ditthi, plus some lobha associated with desire (chanda), strong efforts (viriya) and mindfulness (sati) in my practice of the Eightfold path. You know that in order to develop clear understanding (panna) of the 4 Noble Truths I would need samma-sati and samma-vayama to overcome miccha ditthi. But one day my samma-ditthi will arise with sammasati and samavayama, according to MN 117 (Maha- cattarisaka Sutta). I am now beyond the beginning point, but I don't think it is wrong to constantly review the progress with the end result in mind. The following quote appears in many suttas: ".. a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen…for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development and completion of skilled states that have arisen." It is clear from the Buddha's words that the monks must try hard to fight against akusala dhammas and to develop kusala dhammas till perfection. It is this conscientious effort, one of the 8 path factors, that leads to the cessation of lobha as the end result. N: There is a process of development and this takes time; panna can grow little by little. Beginning with intellectual understanding and considering different dhammas that appear, as we can do right now while considering what we are talking about. T: How is it possible for the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (4 satipatthana + 4 iddhipada + 5 indriya + 5 bala + 7 bojjhanga + 8 ariya- magga) to go to the culmination of their development by means of your " process of development" that begins with "intellectual understanding and considering different dhammas that appear"? This process of development, is it effortless and free from lobha - even though the practitioner is not yet free from the defilements? Why would the "considering different dhammas that appear" lead to lokuttara panna and arahatta-magga eventually? Frankly, I have found it hard to accept. But if it can, how long would this process take us? I think this "process" is like trying to fill a large-and-dry swimming pool by dropping water in it, one drop at a time. By not thinking about the end result, how can there be a review of progress? Without reviewing of progress, how can there be right effort to improve the practice? N: (from 'Satipatthana' notes) "Sati arises with dana, with sila and with bhavana, including samatha and vipassana. Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, it arises with each kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for generosity, sati is heedful, non-forgetful, so that this opportunity is not wasted. When sati does not arise, we are forgetful of kusala and we are unable to be generous. When there is an opportunity for dana, we are often neglectful and we waste this opportunity. When sati does not arise, we are unable to give, we are stingy. "Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Also reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. [endquote] T: To accomplish right mindfulness we must have righteous sanna (e.g. anicca-sanna is righteous while nicca-sanna is not) that is a result of samatha and vipassana bhavana repeatedly with great effort plus mindfulness and discernment, until all the wrong perceptions are displaced by the right ones -- this is a tedious process. I believe that my understanding is supported by MN 95: " The final arrival at truth, Bharadvaja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things. In this way, Bharadvaja, there is the final arrival at truth; in this way one finally arrives at truth; in this way we describe the final arrival at truth." The great effort (sammappadhana and bala) is a supporting factor of this tedious training (sikkha): "Striving" is most helpful for the final arrival at truth, Bharadvaja. If one does not strive, one will not finally arrive at truth: but because one strives, one does finally arrive at truth. That is why striving is most helpful for the final arrival at truth." The final arrival at truth <--- Striving <--- Scrutinizing <--- Application of will <--- Zeal <--- Reflection on the Teachings <---Examination of meanings <--- Memorizing the Teachings <--- Hearing the Dhamma Respectfully, Tep P.S. Please ignore the message that was deleted a moment ago. It contained a few errors. ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > very good remarks and they invite to considering more. I have a try. > op 16-04-2005 19:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: 44554 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Mike & Nina) I’m very glad to see you’re having further discussions with Mike and Nina. As I indicated, I was really grateful for your detailed feedback, beautifully presented and with very pertinent sutta quotes . Very good and subtle points for further discussion. I had just made a few comments on your printed out post, so I’ll just try to summarise them, even though they’re bound to overlap with your other discussions: 1. Firstly, I don’t have an idea of having to ‘pull ‘someone’ from a deep hole of miccha ditthi’ – most the Musings refer to questions I or others raised recently (often reflecting my own uncertainties or wrong views following on from controversial topics here:-)). I’m just relaying aspects which I’ve been considering further. Often ‘All’ gets no response, so I include a few names of people who might find it interesting or might respond. 2. Right Efforts – with awareness and understanding, not with any ‘I’ trying to control. Again we need to appreciate the conventional language for what it is when we read phrases such as ‘a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy...’ etc. 3. ‘At any time’ means not a ‘particular time’, i.e now. This is the only time awareness can develop. No need to wait until we are ariyans – if there’s no beginning, it cannot develop. And yes, when I refer to awareness or satipatthana in these contexts, understanding or knowing is also implied as you say. ‘knowing the “All”...’. 4. Knowing different dhammas just as they are ...again, I don’t agree that ‘we have to be noble disciples first’. There are stages of insight as we’ve discussed before and even now there can be a beginning to know the characteristics of dhammas just as they are. If we always think there has to be an idea of ‘I’ until we are ariyans , it will be a hindrance as I see it. The same with lobha and other kilesa – gradually seen for what they are, gradually attenuated.....remember the adze handle? Each moment of kusala, there is a temporary overcoming of hindrances....each moment of satipatthana, a dhamma is seen for what it is however little. 5. All the guarding has to be with awareness, not with any idea of self – more in Musings9 to follow. 6. Sad or discouraged – I agree with your comments with regard to satipatthana, but remember the kusala dhammas are all anatta – in truth, not 'you' or 'me' to do anything. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful > -- > putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains > focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... > mental > qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside > greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right > mindfulness." ... Excellent. Thank you again for all your help - I'm sure the silent majority here will have appreciated your feedback a lot too, so courteously presented as Mike said. Hope I can learn from it:-). Metta, Sarah ==== 44555 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comparing ... Conceit sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > I would agree that it is helpful to compare ourselves to others > in terms of conventional things, such as health, living > circumstances and whether we are a cadaver being loaded into an > ambulance or not. ... S: I’m not so sure, but as you go on to say, ‘we cannot know another’s citta’. Only panna will know. Still, I think it’s helpful to remember that conceit can be incredibly subtle and not only arises when we reflect erroneously on how sth or so is better, equal or inferior, but also when we reflect correctly in this way. It can also arises when there isn’t even any comparing. The Vibhanga,Ch 17, 832, gives this list of objects on account of which pride and conceit is likely to arise: "Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority; pride of being (a regular) alms collector; accomplishment; pride of popularity; pride of being moral; pride of jhana; pride of dexterity; pride of being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection......thinking about relatives; thinking about one’s district; thinking about (how to) not die...; thinking associated with sympathy for others; thinking associated with gain, being honoured, fame; thinking associated with being not despised" ***** I’m sure we’ll find that most if not all our comparisons are included here......including the examples you give above:-/ .... >I guess it is that sort of comparison that > triggered the Buddha's serach for enlightenment after his chariot > ride. There are so many messengers like this in daily life, around > us all the time. Since we are inevitably cuaght up in concepts about > people, the concepts can at least become helpful in increasing our > understanding. ... S: Yes...again it just comes back to sati and panna to know. Easy to delude ourselves. I had a good example when we were in Bkk – a friend was comparing wholesome qualities (and actually appreciating these in others), but I actually had some conceit that I wasn’t comparing as he was....in other words, conceit about having less conceit:-/. ..... > Maybe the area where it is a mistake to compare is when it comes > to paramattha dhammas. We cannot know the other's citta. There is a > natural tendency to think "that person understands better than I do" > but strictly speaking that is wrong. There is no person, there is > only understanding, moment by moment. Of course, some people have > accumulated understanding in a way that makes it much more likely > that they will have moments of understanding than I will, but I > guess we have wrong view when we say "she understands better than I > do." We fall into the trap of seeing understanding as something that > is owned and operated by people. It's not really like that, when we > get deeper into dhammas. I guess... ... S: Good comments and well put. I think it’s quite useless to speculate and compare with others like this, but then it’s also quite useless to have conceit (or wrong view) of any kind as in my example...but it’s conditioned, it arises and it can be known gradually. Metta, Sarah ======= 44556 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (333) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma are like shades of our body. Our body is what exists. When the body does not exist, then there will not exist its shade. Wherever we go, our shade also move along with our body. When does that shade disappear? When the body disappears, its shade also disappears. 1)Is kamma a citta? No, kamma is not a citta. 2)Is kamma a cetasika? In general sense, no. Kamma is not a cetasika except sahajata-kamma. 3)Is kamma a rupa? No. It's definitely not. 4)Is kamma nibbana? No. Kamma is not nibbana. 5)Is kamma a reality? Hard to answer. Counter question will be 'Is the shade a reality?' I was considering whether kamma is wrongly appointed as God by many people and many other religions. Can anyone see God? Can anyone see kamma? One can see the results of kamma but not the kamma directly. If the appointed God is kamma, is it logical just to pray without ever doing good things and refraining from bad things? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44557 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) nilovg Hi Phil, I am glad you do this. op 19-04-2005 03:26 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> i Which cittas are not accompanied by adhimokkha? > > Cittas accompanied by doubt or restlessness. Neither can find > determination (adhimokka) re the object. ------------- N: and the sense-cognitions, as you say under II. --------------- Ph:> ii Can adhimokkha arise in a sense-door process? > > The bare cittas see that see etc don't need determination to > find the object, just as they don't need other particulars such as > energy (virya) But "process" indicates more than the 10 bare cittas, doesn't it? Is determination needed by javana cittas in a sense door > process? Sure. determination re the object is needed for kusala and > akusala cittas except for the ones mentioned above. -------------- N: Yes, it is as you say, the other cittas arising in a process, apart from the sense-cognitions and moha-muulacitta with doubt, do need adhimokkha. Also the receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness and the other cittas of that process. ------------------- Ph: > iii Can viriya be akusala? > > Of course. If people are inspired by the famous passage of the > four right efforts and seek to cultivate them intentionally without > right understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, there > will be akusala. And leaving that point aside, since we are almost always ignorant of realities in the moment, and since there is so much akusala resulting from this ignorance in daily life, virya is > predominantly akusala. Rare moments of right effort can be cultivated, however, so there is no need to feel discouraged by this. N: Yes, often we are bound to take wrong effort for right effort. We do not have to cultivate right effort separately, because when there is right understanding of realities, right effort accompanies right understanding already, because of conditions. We do not have to think of effort. -------- Ph: > iv Viriya is sankhåra dhamma. Why did the Buddha exhort people to strive for wisdom although there is no self who can put forth energy? -------- N: The Buddha encouraged, reminded people, so that his words were a condition for not being forgetful. We can appreciate encouraging words from our friends in the same way. His disciples had no misunderstandings about realities being anatta, about the conditioned nature of wisdom and effort. Ph: Hmm. He saw into that nature of realities and knew that dhammas > such as wisdom (panna) could be cultivated through mindfulness, and > that when effort is accompanied by wisdom (as it must be to have any > value)it would lead toward the gradual eradication of defilements > such as self-view. -------- N: Very well said. ----------- Ph: He also knew that his teaching went against the way of the world (even in his day - how much more now!) and that people would misinterpret it and adapt it to the needs of self. -------------- N: Yes. There are people who doubt that right understanding can be developed in daily life. They think that there are too many distractions and that this hinders sati and paññaa. ----------- Ph: > v What is right effort of the eightfold Path? > If I recall correctly, the path factors are all cetasikas, so right effort would be the cetasika virya. It must arise with other path factors such as right view (panna) --------------- N: This shows again that right effort, sammaa vayaama, cannot be developed in isolation, separately from the other Path factors. -------------- Ph: vi Which are the proximate causes for right effort? > > Hmm. There must be right understanding or the effort will not be right. There must be an object that has arisen, obviously. I don't know. --------------- N: I shall quote from Vis. Ch XIV, 137) and Tiika: Text Vis.: Because of the words 'Bestirred, he strives wisely' (A.ii,115), its proximate cause is a sense of urgency; N: The Vis refers here to the Sutta about the goad. A horse may be stirred at the mere sight of the shadow of a goad, whereas another horse needs to be pricked, or have his flesh pierced by it, or be pierced to his very bone. Evenso a man may be agitated when he hears that in another village someone died. Thereupon he develops insight and penetrates the supreme truth. Whereas someone else needs to see someone who is afflicted or dead with his own eyes, or, he has to see a family member afflicted or dead, or he himself has to be grievously afflicted, before he has a sense of urgency (sa.mvega) and develops wisdom. Vis. text: or its proximate cause is grounds for the initiation of energy. When rightly initiated, it should be regarded as the root of all attainments. N: We read in the Vis. IV, 63, about eight grounds of urgency. The Tiika refers to the eight bases of energy for wholesome action as explained in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VIII, ŒThe Bases of Indolence and of Energy¹. A monk who is lazy has numerous excuses for not developing right understanding to attain the unattained. He thinks that he will be tired or is tired because of work that had to be done, because of a journey that had to be made, because of not receiving enough almsfood, or because when he has received enough food his body is heavy, or because he has a slight illness, or he has just recovered from it. The energetic monk does not delay developing wisdom to attain the unattained in such cases. When he has a slight illness he realizes that this may grow worse, or when he has recently recovered, he is heedful: he foresees that he may become ill again, and that then the development of wisdom may become more difficult. -------------- Ph: vii How can right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? > > Patiently. Appreciation of moments of right effort, as rare as they are, will condition the arising of more. Please tell me more. ------------------ N: By developing right understanding of this very moment now! Even while we are discussing now on Internet with friends. We are reflecting. That is a kind of nama, non-self. There is seeing, that is a kind of nama, non-self. There is sound time and again, that is a kind of rupa, not a thing, not the computer. If there can be a moment of right understanding, even though beginning, even though coarse, there is a sense of urgency, there is an initiation of effort. As you say patience is important, we should not be impatient for the arising of a result of the practice. Saddha, confidence is important, as we see above in the quote. If there is no confidence in the development of understanding, we soon get discouraged and give up. --------------- Ph : viii At which moment is right effort of the eightfold Path be >> developed? > > At any moment in which there is kusala citta. There must be right effort for kusala citta to arise. ---------------------- N: Kusala citta with paññaa. This is supported by right effort and many other sobhana cetasikas. When there is awareness of a nama or rupa that appears now, there is right effort already. Which are suitable moments? Any moment now. There should not be selection of objects and situations. Akusala is an object just as worthy to be object of right understanding as kusala. I appreciate Jon stressing this often. ---------- Ph: ix What is the object which right effort of the eightfold Path experiences? > I don't know. ------------ N: When the Path is still mundane, any nama or rupa appearing now. The sobhana cetasikas that accompany the kusala citta with paññaa all share the same object. Right effort of the eightfold Path is effort for understanding the dhamma appearing at this moment. Thank you for your input, this reminds me of realities and it helps me to consider more. There is never enough considering of realities. Nina. 44558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. nilovg Hi Geoff, op 18-04-2005 23:11 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > I hope you can now begin to appreciate that the commentarial > definition of jhana doesn't fully account for sutta statements > such as Dhammapada XXV.372: > > There's no jhana > for one with no discernment [panna], > no discernment > for one with no jhana. ----------------- N: Ven. Narada does not translate it in this way, but I have no time to look up the Pali now. He says instead of jhana: concentration. Thus, samaadhi and paññaa go together. Right, they are factors of the eightfold Path. ------------------- G: IMO accepting commentarial positions without questioning them or > connecting them to one's own experience isn't very useful. If > it works for you, so be it. But with all due respect, and I mean this > sincerely (recognizing that you are one of the main contributors to > this group and probably one of the founders), ------------------ N: I am not a founder ;-)) A. Sujin and the Mods are the founders, and Rob K, Howard and others were already there when I came. I came later on. ------------- G: do you not think it > rather disingenuous to teach the commentarial position regarding > jhana as being scripturally factual and beyond error without having > practiced and attained for oneself what they promote as jhana? -------------- N: Sorry, I do not teach. I study and consider and check what I read for myself. What I find useful I like to share with others. -------------- G: Because it seems to me that if one hasn't done so, one is just a > mere theoretical buddhologist, and should clearly indicate when > discussing meditation (samadhi/jhana) and discernment (panna), that > one doesn't know from experience what one is talking about. I > mean this respectfully and sincerely with a nonaggressive attitude. ------------------ N: The Buddha always took into account that people have different accumulations, different inclinations. He did not set rules that everybody has to develop samatha to the degree of jhana. Jhana leads to the abandonment of lobha, although it does not eradicate it. Vipassana leads to the eradication of ignorance. I am already old, the days and years fly by, faster and faster. I am interested at understanding all the realities appearing in my daily life. The Buddha taught me to investigate all, in the sabba-sutta. In jhana one is away from the world, but I want to know the dhammas appearing now: seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, and all the defilements arising on account of them. I want to understand conceit, and to know when it arises, I want to understand clinging, also when it is more subtle such as clinging to visible object arising now, and it does arise all the time. I do not want to delay following the sabba-sutta, I may collapse at any time. I read your other post about your motivations. You have your own reasons for developing jhana, and I do not want to argue about this. Nina. 44559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Matheesha, You have many points and I could not answer them all. So, I leave some out. op 19-04-2005 00:50 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Even though we might practice jhana or vipassana divorced from each > other now, sathipatthana seems to develop them concurrently. -------------- N: Rather: there can be awareness and understanding of the citta that develops jhana and/or vipassana, so that it is not taken for self. -------------- M:There > is a sutta in which the buddha says 'to those who know samatha, I > teach vipassana, and vice versa' So to say that anyone who practices > one after the other is wrong and not effective, is not quite correct > either. This just leads me to think that there are many paths to the > top. ------------- N: We have to see the context. It depends to whom he was speaking. To those who had accumulations for samatha? Even when he spoke about jhana the aim was always: not to take it for self. He would always teach anatta. That is the Buddha's teaching and nobody else's. ------------------- > N:> The supramundane Path has right concentration that is > supramundane. ------------ M: Fair enough. The qualitative difference should be the presence of > panna? ----------- N: There must be paññaa with both. Never without paññaa, but paññaa that has nibbaana as object is lokuttara. ---------- M: Do you think if there were less attachment to the dhamma here there > would be less emails? :) ------------ N: Who can tell what other people's cittas are like? Mails are inspired by different types of citta, also at different moments while writing one email. One should scrutinize one's own cittas. Then there is a sense of urgency to develop understanding right now. Nina. 44560 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. christine_fo... Hello Nina (and Geoff), The Pali for v. 372 is: Natthi Jhaana.m apa~n~nassa pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n~naa ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. The English is: "There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. In whom are both concentration and wisdom, he, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbaana." (Narada Thera) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Geoff, > op 18-04-2005 23:11 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@y...: > > I hope you can now begin to appreciate that the commentarial > > definition of jhana doesn't fully account for sutta statements > > such as Dhammapada XXV.372: > > > > There's no jhana > > for one with no discernment [panna], > > no discernment > > for one with no jhana. > ----------------- > N: Ven. Narada does not translate it in this way, but I have no time to look > up the Pali now. He says instead of jhana: concentration. Thus, samaadhi and > paññaa go together. Right, they are factors of the eightfold Path. > ------------------- courtesy snip 44561 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught Evan_Stamato... Hi Geoff, AA = Anguttara Atthakatha I hope it means more to you than me. I'll do an internet search to find out what it is later but I suspect it is a post canonical commentary on the AN. Kind Regards, Evan ______________________________________________________ Hi Evan, E: AA explains internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) >as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), ... ----------- What is the AA? Geoff 44562 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcakadhammas. Evan_Stamato... Nina, I would rather say that in jhana, one is deep within the world. Metta, Evan Nina: In jhana one is away from the world... 44563 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > do you not think it > rather disingenuous to teach the commentarial position regarding > jhana as being scripturally factual and beyond error without having > practiced and attained for oneself what they promote as jhana? > > Because it seems to me that if one hasn't done so, one is just a > mere theoretical buddhologist, and should clearly indicate when > discussing meditation (samadhi/jhana) and discernment (panna), that > one doesn't know from experience what one is talking about. I > mean this respectfully and sincerely with a nonaggressive attitude. > > ========= Dear Geoff, With respect, I get the feeling you think your teachers have jhana, or some monks you know? But how could you know that , certainly no monk would even hint that he has attained jhana, it is against vinaya. And keeping the vinaya is the first step needed to attain such profound states. Vinaya Vibhanga: """ Should any bhikkhu report (his own) factual superior human state to an unordained person, it is to be confessed. The factors for the full offense here are three: 1) Object: an unordained person, i.e., anyone -- human or not -- who is not a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. 2) Effort: One reports one's actual attainment of a superior human state to such a person. 3) Result: The person immediately understands. Only two of these factors -- effort and result -- require explanation. Effort. The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length under Parajika 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, (b) the cognitive powers that can arise as its result, and (c) the transcendent states.""" .""" I remember going on retreats and being told by this and that teacher- oh yes this is progress, that is Bhanga. And of course atta-sanna loves such praise. Loooking back now it seems hilarious but I know that it was taken seriously, and I speak with other Buddhists who are speand a great deal of time trying to convince themselves or others that they 'keep sila' or they have 'samatha' or have this or that stage of insight. Why? It can't be like that, Dhamma makes one less concerned about self, not more. In the Vissudhimaggaatthakatha there is the story of two brothers who were monks and shared teh same hut. http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-11.htm#_ftnref6 One had take up the sitting practice(never lying down). But - being keen on Dhamma, not on other things he never told his brother. ?e"That Elder, it seems, was a sitter, but no one knew it. Then one night the other saw him by the light of a flash of lightning sitting up on his bed. He asked, ?gAre you a sitter, venerable sir??h. Out of fewness of wishes that his ascetic practice should get known, the Elder lay down. Afterwards he undertook the practice anew.""" The monk was modest. And the sitting practice is only at the level of sila, not higher. We can see how different things are these days, and this is because of the degree of delusion that is so strong among us all at this late stage of the sasana. When we believe we know better than the ancient sangha of the Theravada and the hundreds of thousands of monks since who preserved the teachings, carefully reciting them so that they have lasted to this day, what kind of cittas have such ideas... This is worth finding out. RobertK 44564 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:09pm Subject: The 10 Helpers...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Ten Keys with Inherent Success: These 10 precious points should be fully Understood: 1: Enthusiastic effort in advantageous states greatly helps. 2: Joyous Awareness of the body as only a transient form is to be cultivated. 3: Contact as the cause of mental fermentation & clinging is to be recognized. 4: The Conceit: 'I Am (my Own Body or Group)' is to be extracted & eliminated. 5: That Irrational Attention leads to loss & decline is to be thoroughly known. 6: Rational Attention, which discriminates cause & effect, is to be directed to. 7: That Immediate Absorption of mental Concentration is hard to penetrate to. 8: The Certainty of unshakable, & assured knowledge is to be sought & reached. 9: That all Being in Existence is maintained by Nutriment is to be fully learnt. 10: Absolute & Irreversible mental Release is to be realized & fully entered. These 10 things are real & true, exactly so & not otherwise, perfectly discovered & formulated by the Well-Gone-One... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44565 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:20am Subject: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Tep, Mike, KenH & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) A short while ago I was discussing the Kundaliya Sutta and the guarding of the senses with Tep who gave this reference: >SN 46.6 Kundaliya Sutta. A summary of this sutta is available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/guide- tipitaka/guidetipitaka-06.htm "The Buddha advises him to cultivate and frequently practise restraint of the five senses. This will establish the threefold good conduct in deed, word and thought. When the threefold good conduct is cultivated and frequently practised, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness will be established. When the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are well established, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment will be developed. When the Seven Factors of Enlightenment are developed and frequently applied, the. Fruits of the Path and liberation by knowledge will be achieved".< .... We discussed how there is a guarding of the senses at any moments of sati (awareness), i.e whenever the cittas (moments of consciousness) are sobhana (beautiful)*. There are degrees and kinds of sati and restraint and not all restraint is at the level of satipatthana. I mentioned that in the context of ‘visuddhi’ or purity, I believe the ‘guarding’ or restraint always refers to satipatthana. In Bangkok, we also briefly discussed this sutta and how in the passage above the first example of ‘restraint of the five senses’ refers to sati which is not of the degree of satipatthana. There is guarding of the senses or indriya samavara sila with all kinds and degrees of sati, i.e. with all wholesome moments of consciousness. When there is generosity or metta or restraint from harming, sati and the other sobhana (beautiful) mental factors perform the function of ‘guarding’. When there are moments of satipatthana, sati, panna (understanding) and the other factors guard with wisdom. We discussed how the function of sati has different degrees, like a grain or pinch of salt compared to a heap of salt. We can’t compare the relative value of the guarding of sati at moments of satipatthana, even though the ‘flavour’ of it is the same for all kinds of sati. The javana (‘running through’ or ‘active’) cittas of the arahant ‘guard’ all the time, because by nature they are all sobhana cittas. This is why we read that the arahant is continuously mindful or the senses are continually guarded. This is in spite of the fact that the arahant’s javana cittas are not always accompanied by panna (wisdom) and they are therefore not always concerned with samatha or satipatthana bhavana (mental development). [Of course, in the arahant’s case, when there is satipatthana, it is not for the purpose of eradicating defilements as in our case]. With regard to guarding or restraint(samvara), we also had more discussions about yoniso manasikara (wise attention) and in particular to the aspect of samvara (restraint). When the javana cittas are sobhana, we can refer to the whole vithi (process) in which they arise as being sobhana. There is samvara or ‘guarding’ or yoniso manasikara (wise attention) at such a time. Naturally, when there are no wholesome cetasikas, there cannot be yoniso manasikara. If we are referring to the mano-dvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness), the citta itself is kiriya (inoperative), without any hetu (root), so we cannot really say it is sobhana or yoniso or samvara. However, because the following javana cittas are sobhana, the whole process including this citta, can be referred to as sobhana or yoniso or samvara at such times for convenience. It is however wrong to refer to just the mano-dvaravajjana citta itself as yoniso manasikara. The important point, however, is that it’s not just a matter of understanding ‘the word’ or the definitions, but rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. Otherwise we can easily get hung up on definitions, I find. In this regard, we cannot pinpoint a particular citta in a series. We can’t directly know the moment to moment cittas arising because we’re simply not so wise as in the Buddha’s time. In the same way, with limited wisdom, we cannot pinpoint particular cetasikas (mental factors) such as manasikara (attention), sati or panna at anytime because they arise together and panna is not precise enough to single out particular states. Otherwise, it’s like trying to identify the ingredients of the curry as referred to in the texts. Satipatthana has to develop in order to precisely know characteristics when they appear. We discussed how ‘satipatthana follows’ rather than fixing or ordering the objects for awareness. Whichever way our life goes, whatever dhammas (realities) are apparent, satipatthana has to follow rather than lead. For example, I mentioned the example of someone having a stroke or being seriously ill in the last Musing. If there is awareness and understanding of dhammas appearing, there is no clinging, concern or expectation about recovery or what will happen in future at such times. Instead confidence in the dhamma grows. All realities are anatta and beyond anyone’s control. Seeing cannot be hearing, pleasant feeling cannot be unpleasant feeling, but such dhammas can be known and gradually understood so samvara (restraint) is cultivated. So often, we have expectations that life and the present realities should be of a particular kind, but actually even when sati grows, daily life remains very ordinary --just seeing, hearing and other experiences as usual. The only difference is that when satipatthana begins to develop naturally, there is momentary guarding of the senses at such times, instead of always thinking of a concept immediately. And so, when we read the following quotes and are urged to guard or restrain the senses, we can either a) read them as instruction manuals for Self to follow in order to try and control what arises, or b) begin to appreciate that the dhammas(realities)being referred to are anatta, i.e. conditioned dhammas arising by their own conditions. By reading, considering and seeing the value in satipatthana, it's a condition for it to arise: "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). *** “In this world, whenever someone sees a visible object with the eye, he takes in its appearance (such as male or female), or its characteristics (such as expression or behaviour). If the faculty of sight is left unguarded, such depraved states of mind as covetousness and dissatisfaction stemming from the world overpower him as he fails to control his faculty of sight. He does not restrain his faculty of sight, does not keep watch over it, and thereby lacks control over it.... sound...odour....flavour....tangible object.....mind-object.....” (Dhsg 1352). ***** To stress that the guarding or restraint is performed by sati (and other sobhana factors), not by a self in the beginning, middle or end, the Vism (1, 100) states: “ And ... restraint of the sense faculties should be undertaken with mindfulness. For that is accomplished by mindfulness, because when the sense faculties’ functions are founded on mindfulness, there is no liability to invasion by covetousness and the rest.” ***** More to follow on sila, strategies and prescriptions (to be contd) Metta, Sarah *I’ve used sobhana (beautiful) here rather than kusala (wholesome) to include the kiriya (inoperative)cittas and cetasikas of the arahant which cannot be referred to as kusala. ======= 44566 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Team Tep sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > > > Hi, Tep, > > Some excerpts from a few of the posts a "Mahanidana" search turns up: .... S: Thanks so much for your assistance and also for the cheating dhamma numbers for Nina. I'm behind with lots of replies and reading so it helps a lot. Btw, I meant to include your name in my Musing just posted - I know you won't be (over)concerned by all the techno stuff:-). Speak soon, Metta, Sarah ======== 44567 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I have the Co in Thai as well as in Pali of SN 35:24 Abandonment. > For the English I only have PTS. > I do not translate word by word. .... Thank you so much for providing this so promptly and also to Suan, Larry, RobK, James and yourself for the further feedback. I plan to add more in due course too. (If anyone wants to read more on the meaning of pahana(abandoning), see U.P. under 'abandoning'). Metta, Sarah ======= 44568 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Nina & Geoff, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > The Pali for v. 372 is: > Natthi Jhaana.m apa~n~nassa > pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato > Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n~naa ca > sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > The English is: > "There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, nor is there > wisdom in him who lacks concentration. In whom are both > concentration and wisdom, he, indeed, is in the presence of > Nibbaana." (Narada Thera) > ..... S: that's helpful. I think it's useful to reflect on the two kinds of jhana here. From memory, at least one or two of these posts refer specifically the Dhp verse and commentary. Rob K, you (Chris) or someone may like to check and requote - I need to rest my arm:-/. Jhana - Two Meanings 3184, 11524, 30795, 33436, 33532, 38589, 39500 Metta, Sarah ========= 44569 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas ashkenn2k Hi Nina and Larry Just like to add what Nina has said, concepts are diverse and perceive differently in different culture. A conept of the tree can held great esteem to some people but to others they are just money to be make. To me, such diveristy of such concept, make a very difficult to have a standardise way of looking at dhamma. In fact, Buddha stress a lot on the five aggregates, to see at the most basic, because this breaks on the our hold of concept, especially the concept of a self. This fundamentally built a systematic approach to whatever we experience through the six senses. Ken O 44570 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) onco111 Dear All, Interesting passages from "Cetasikas" and Vism: > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater > sense of urgency and how the mind should be encouraged. We > read: > * > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be > encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense > of urgency. "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an awful lot like instructions, do they not? "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a sense of "These results arose from these conditions"--amoha. "Shoulds" are dangerous traps. Dan 44571 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:26am Subject: [dsg] Right livelihood ashkenn2k Hi Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and everyone One got this question always on my mind about right livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, clothings etc Ken O 44572 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Team Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Connie (Sarah, Nina, Chris, James, Kel, Howard, KenO, KenH and more) - Thanks to Connie for the team spirit. Also I thank her for kicking the ball to start the series. First, let's slowly discuss the background [Mahanidana sutta atthakatha] before focusing on the sutta itself, after I have a copy of the B. Bodhi's book. Interestingly important points from Connie's excerpts (messages 12419, and 14917): -- Anatta has depth of penetration, it is a "deep" matter. -- The meaning of conciousness as "emptiness and abscence of an agent" is deep. -- "Deep" is also the meaning of volitional formations: volitionally forming, accumulating, lustfulness, and lustlessness. -- Consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self, i.e. 'this is mine, this I am, this is self'. Tep's Comments: # Given the right view that consciousness is empty, there would be no misapprehension of self and we would automatically have the right understanding of the realities. # Our right view (clearly seeing and knowing the realities) is difficult to arise because of volitional formations. Are my above deductions correct? My next email will review the messages #19499,21601, 27710, and 31644 as suggested by Connie. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Connie, > > --- connie wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Tep, > > > > Some excerpts from a few of the posts a "Mahanidana" search turns up: > .... > S: Thanks so much for your assistance and also for the cheating dhamma > numbers for Nina. I'm behind with lots of replies and reading so it helps > a lot. > > Btw, I meant to include your name in my Musing just posted - I know you > won't be (over)concerned by all the techno stuff:-). > > Speak soon, > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 44573 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) buddhistmedi... Dear Dan - Your remark was good! > > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense of urgency. > > "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an awful lot like instructions, do they not? > T: They are instructions to the worldlings. Sincerely, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear All, > Interesting passages from "Cetasikas" and Vism: > > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater 44574 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right livelihood htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: Hi Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and everyone One got this question always on my mind about right livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, clothings etc Ken O -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Ken O, Very interesting question. What I am totally sure is that 'the livelihood of bhikkhus' is 'right livelihood'. When 'this noble livelihood cannot be ours' we all have to choose the least contaminated livelihood. Nina and Robert will have good answers. If I may, I would like to know your own opinion on 'trading in dog food, accessories, clothings etc'. My opinion is that the livelihood in question is free of bad mood. Dogs cannot search clothings for their own use even though they may look for warmer places. If metta prevail while working that trading, it will be free of akusala. With regards, Htoo Naing 44575 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Team Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 buddhistmedi... Hi all - In this post we continue to review two more "useful posts" about the Mahanidana Sutta plus its commentaries. # 19499: A dialogue between RobertK and Herman. Herman asked if the Eight Stage of Release was conceptual, since there was "no longer any idea of sensation at all". RobertK: Yes, this is a description of one of the higher jhanas. And the object there is a concept actually. It cannot lead to insight while the jhana is existing but immediately upon leaving the jhana there can be, for the one who understands the way of vipassana, insight into the factors of mind that occured during that jhana (and that have passed away instantly. Some detail in RobertK's reply is given below - # The Eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) are: 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and attains and abides in the infinity of space. 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in the stage of the infinity of consciousness. 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and abides in the stage of nothingness. 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of perception and feeling. (Digha, ii, 111). # The Buddha notes that one who has mastered all these jhanas PLUS has extinguished the asava is one who is ceto-vimutti panna vimutti (liberated by both heart and wisdom). I.e. he is the highest type of arahant who has mastered both samatha and vipassana. The paragraph quoted is not referring to the sukkhavipassaka arahant who has eliminated the asava but didn't use the eight mundane jhanas (which are desribed above) as basis for insight. Only if these mundane jhanas are seen – upon leaving the jhana- with insight wisdom can they be the basis for emancipation. # The atthakatha says (bodhi p103) "liberated by wisdom" having brought about the [future] non-occurrence of the mental body (nama) and material body, he is liberated solely by the power of wisdom without realising the eight emancipations . This type is fivefold: the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) and those who attain arahantship after having become established in [only] one or another of the four jhanas." #21601: A dialogue between RobertK and RobertM. RobM commented on Venerable Ananda's enlightenment: After spending almost his entire adult life listening to the Buddha and memorizing every word the Buddha said, conditions and Ananda's accumulations were ripe for the event of enlightenment to occur. RobertK : The commentary to the Mahanidana sutta (Bodhi page 63) notes that learning was to "repeatedly studying the texts under revered teachers, listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty points and retaining in mind their meaning." It says "for those who are highly learned, namarupaparichedda nana(distinguishing of nama and rupa) becomes as evident as a bed and chair in a small room illuminted by a lamp, and Ananda was chief of those who are highly learned." It also explains his great parami from past lives; such as 100,000 aeons of time ago, when he aspired to be become the personal attendant of a Buddha. "..thus he was endowed with decisive supporting conditions (pubekata punnata )from the past.." T: The commentarial suggestion that the namarupa-parichedda-nana can be achieved by "studying the texts under revered teachers, listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty points and retaining in mind their meaning" is misleading. It invites the reader to think that intellectual understanding (somewhat similar to the same understanding obtained in a classroom) is enough to cause this vipassana-nana to arise. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Connie (Sarah, Nina, Chris, James, Kel, Howard, KenO, KenH and > more) - > > Thanks to Connie for the team spirit. Also I thank her for kicking the ball > to start the series. First, let's slowly discuss the background > [Mahanidana sutta atthakatha] before focusing on the sutta itself, after I > have a copy of the B. Bodhi's book. > 44576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. nilovg Thank you, Christine. I think this text may refer to lokuttara citta and this is accompanied by concentration to the degree of absorption, also for those who are dry insight workers. Also, as Sarah says, we have to keep in mind the two meanings of jhana; not forgetting the three lakkhanas, otherwise nibbaana cannot be attained. Nina. op 19-04-2005 13:15 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > > > Hello Nina (and Geoff), > > The Pali for v. 372 is: > Natthi Jhaana.m apa~n~nassa > pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato > Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n~naa ca > sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > The English is: > "There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, nor is there > wisdom in him who lacks concentration. In whom are both > concentration and wisdom, he, indeed, is in the presence of > Nibbaana." (Narada Thera) > 44577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention nilovg Dear Sarah, excellent summary, everything clearly explained. Also manasikaara is well explained. Nina. op 19-04-2005 14:20 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > A short while ago I was discussing the Kundaliya Sutta and the guarding of > the senses with Tep who gave this reference: > >> SN 46.6 Kundaliya Sutta. A summary of this > sutta is available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/guide- > tipitaka/guidetipitaka-06.htm > > "The Buddha advises him to cultivate and frequently practise > restraint of the five senses. 44578 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañ£¡«a dhammas. sunnaloka Hi Nina, We have very different views. We come from very different Dhamma perspectives and backgrounds. And although I consider myself a nonsectarian, there probably would be very little (theory) that we could actually agree on. You are right (we can agree on this at least;-)). It’s simply not worth debating over. We must all do the best with what we ‘think’ we know. I certainly include myself in this category. It has been good conversing with you. Thank you for answering all my abidhamma questions. Metta, Geoff 44579 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañ£¡®a dhammas. sunnaloka Hi Robert, R: When we believe we know better than the ancient sangha of the Theravada and the hundreds of thousands of monks since who preserved the teachings, carefully reciting them so that they have lasted to this day, what kind of cittas have such ideas... This is worth finding out. -------------------------- I’m not a Theravadin Robert. Personally I believe that the not-so-‘ancient sangha of the Theravada’ totally and completely misses the Dhamma. It is nihilistic and substantialistic and rigidly dualistic, etc., etc., etc.. But it's true that they did amazingly and carefully preserve the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka without corrupting them with their (IMO degenerate) views. And for this I am grateful. Yes one should remain humble and hold one’s beliefs and views close to one’s chest. But when I come to DSG and see venerable teachers whom I respect getting dismissed as having an invalid view, then something should possibly be said. But it’s just not worth it. If people wish to separate the path into ‘those who practice jhana’ and ‘those who don’t,’ so be it. I’ve stated very clearly and at some considerable length just what my reasons for discussing this issue are. I was only ever directly discussing my own experience -- which I realize is completely inappropriate -- I realized this when I stated my own experience, and said so. I knew I should have never gone this far in this particular venue of DSG. But what has been said has been said. So be it. Metta, Geoff 44580 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened sunnaloka Hi Lisa, L: Sunnaloka (Geoff) I would love to met Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche just to see that smile. ---------------------- You can see his smile, and also find out about his teaching schedule, here: http://www.rinpoche.com/ L: "The Life And Teachings Of Naropa" Translated from the original Tibetan with philosophical commentary based on the oral transmmission by Herbert V. Guenther. ------------------------- A profound teaching. What is it Tilopa keeps telling Naropa? Something to the effect of "Look at your own mind -- the mysterious (secret, wink,wink) home of the dakini." It’s been quite a few years since I read it last. Somewhat unfortunate is Mr. Guenther’s peculiar translating skills. He was a fairly early pioneer of Tibetan Buddhist translation, and used many terms borrowed I believe, from Western existential/idealistic philosophy -- terms like ‘being-in-its-beingness’ which if I remember correctly is his translation of dharmakaya. So his translations, important as they were at the time, make for quite terse reading. The upside I guess, is that it can give us a different way of looking at Dharma. On a related note, Trungpa Rinpoche gave a series of teachings on this topic that were published by Shambhala Pub.. Can't remember the title off hand, but did read it years ago. It may help you negotiate through some of Guenther's jargon. L: "Dakini's Warm Breath" The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism," by Judith Simmer-Brown. -------------------------- When I was at Gampo Abbey (Cape Breton, N.S., Canada) for Yarne (annual winter retreat) a couple of years back, Judith came for a week and taught on the dakini principle (she’s an acharya in Trungpa Rinpoche’s lineage, as is Ani Pema Chodron). Her teaching was good, but maybe because of the ‘esoteric’ nature of the subject matter, and the fact that not all of the listeners were tantrikas (including myself -- could never get past the 10,000th prostration ;-) the teaching, like the book, remained mostly on the superficial level of symbolic understanding -- never really penetrated the depths so to speak. But very good nevertheless. If you haven’t read it yet -- seek out a copy of "Sky Dancer" translated by Keith Dowman. It’s the "secret autobiography" of Yeshe Tsogyal. This is the real deal as far as the Nyingma Dzogchen teachings relate to the dakini principle. So so so very rich. The mind can’t help but find its essential nature when presented with such profound pathways. Excerpts from Sky Dancer can be found here: http://www.keithdowman.net/books/sd.htm There’s also a wealth of Mahamudra and Dzogchen materials on Dowman’s site. L: "The Perfection of Wisdom In Eight Thousand LInes & Verse Summary," Translated by Edward Conze. ----------------- Conze was also another early translator, and although some are critical of his translations, he was my first introduction to the Prajnaparamita Sutras and so I’ve always kind of had a soft spot for his translations. "Mother of the Buddhas" by Lex Hixon is another worthy read as it’s an ‘experiential meditation/translation’ of the 8000 line PP.. Lex Hixon was a scholar (phd. I believe), profound Sufi mystic, and Zen master!! Slight overachiever :-0 His was a very big mind. His books are all very good stuff -- highly inspirational -- and cuts right through all the sectarian b.s.. L: five thousand Bodhisattvas in the assembly were all able to enter the gate of nondualism and to learn to accept the truth of birthlessness. -------------------------- I first came across the famous "form=emptiness+emptiness=form" of the PP Hridaya Sutra when I was 18 or 19 (many years ago now -- but what is time anyway?? -- "sun-faced buddha, moon-faced buddha" -- Blue Cliff Record, case #3: "Master Ma is ill"); anyhow, I’ve spent most of my life since that time chewing on this (apparent) paradox. Like chewing on zero, so to speak. But I wouldn’t have it any other way. PP nondualism (Vimalakirti is PP Sutra as I’m sure you know) is the only gate -- gateless gate. Somewhere Wu-men says: "If you pass through this barrier -- you walk the universe Alone...." Errs on the side of monism -- but just how is one to say the whole thing while simultaneously remaining free of error?? (Trick question ;-)) L: I've been working my way through Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas" ------------------------ In a similar vein -- how can we ever hope to wrap our arms around this serpent king? L: I needed another system to compare Madhyamika against because I really struggle with the total negation without a positive turn around that Madhyamika seems to present..(I still feel like cursing sometimes when I read certain passages! hahaha) --------------------------- Is the urge to curse a negation? hahaha Negate everything and what is left? Suchness, suchness, and always and forever suchness. Who could ask for anything more. IMO, although it seems frustrating at times, it’s also thoroughly transcendent to be comfortable with uncertainty -- and beyond that -- comfortable with nothing. Ani Pema Chodron often translates sunyata as "groundlessness." She says that the purpose of sunyata is to continually and completely "pull the rug outfrom under our feet." When we realize that our every notion is a baseless conceptual fabrication, then we can step into the unknown -- what J. Krishnamurti aptly called "freedom from the known." He also aptly stated that "truth is a pathless land." A very fruitional view -- somewhat akin to Zen, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and the Thai Kammatthana forest tradition, all of which are to some extent practice traditions very sceptical of tenant systems and analytical philosophizing. L: Prayogika-jnana, knowledge held on the stage of preparatory practice. 2. nirvikalpa-jnana, non-discriminative wisdom or knowledge that is often called "fundamental wisdom" in the Sino-Japanese Buddhist traditions, and 3. tat-prsthalabdha-jnana, knowledge acquired subsequent to that. Knowledge (1) that is, preparatory knowledge is in the direction of "ascent" as it aims towards the fundamental wisdom. the latter knowledge, (3), that is, subsequent knowledge, is in the direction of "descent" as it results from the fundmental wisdom. -------------------------- Yes the Yogacarins get back into the whole stages of paths, bodhisattva bhumis, and levels of jnana, etc.. They also get back into the whole abhidharma thing. It can be helpful, but (IMO) it’s ultimately just another tenant system which is attempting to describe ‘reality’ in conventional, conditional, and therefore relative terms. In the end it must also be discarded as just more seeking. L: I also looked into this system because I wondered how does what is without form walk in this world and talk to us enough to wake us to our own self made misery? Gotama could of just kept on sitting under his Bodhitree...why did he turn around and come back?.... Mahayana really gets into this issue. --------------------------------- Tathagatagarbha teachings state that it’s buddha-nature’s nature to return to its source. For example, The Lion's Roar Of Queen Srimala Sutra states: [H]ence it is worthy of the Tathágata-garbha to have aversion towards suffering as well as longing, eagerness, and aspiration towards Nirvana. Full text here: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/ the_lions_roar_0f_queen_srimala_sutra.htm These teachings also state that buddha-nature is a mystery. I like that -- the idea that some essential things don’t need to be rationally explained because there simply is no rational explanation -- it’s beyond the rational mind: What was/is before the big bang?... All things return to the one; to what does the one return?... What was your true face before your parents were born?... etc., etc.. I’m coming across like a zennist today for some reason ... but no apologies. L: I think Abhidhamma will also help me strengthen this area of study for me....I think it will, I may end up with a sankhara attack of cursings again! hahaha ----------------------------------- If you’re interested, you can check out my site, which uses abhidhamma analysis to illustrate/arive at emptiness. The site is here: http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/ You can also e-mail me at emptyuniverse@... if you wish to talk some more. I won’t be coming back to DSG any more I don’t think. I’m coming from a very different perspective than DSG. There would just never be much fruitful or productive discourse, as I don’t particularly enjoy constantly refuting, criticizing, and debating -- but with what is being presented here, I just can’t find much common ground, etc.. Anyway, you can also e-mail me at the same address through the link on the contact page of the emptyuniverse site. L: One more book and the reason why I looked into Tibetan Buddhism. "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State," by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Translated from the Italian by John Shane. ----------------------------------- Oh yes -- I’ve never met Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, or anyone directly associated with him -- but I’m quite familiar with his books, esp. "The Crystal and the Way of Light," and Dzogchen texts translated under his guidance such as "Supreme Source," the Dzogchen mind division tantra, and Longchenpa’s concise guru yoga instructions on this tantra, translated as "You Are the Eyes of the World." These texts were my main textual inspiration for a long time. Very good stuff. I’d suggest that Rinpoche is probably all about rigpa (having never met him I can‘t say for sure). L: This is my Lama friends teacher and this book helped me find him. Now that has become the most amazing journey of all which has just begun and ended at the same time! ....my first introduction to Dzogchen is when a friend asked my Lama friend if I needed empowerments for a certain lesson I was going to learn and he told her, "It's all in the mind." ------------------------- Sounds right. Sometimes the Tibetan traditions can get just as stuffy and orthodox as any other tradition -- but it seems your friend knows how to cut through all that. Good luck to you Lisa. It’s been a pleasure meeting you. You know where to reach me if you wish to converse. Metta, Geoff 44581 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:57pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sunnaloka Hi everyone at DSG, I’m going to say goodbye for now as I don’t find that what is generally being discussed here resonates with me on any level, and I’m just not very interested in critical refutation and debate. If the Theravadin commentarial path paradigm works for anyone, that is great -- who am I to criticize. It’s just not my upaya --that’s all. I firmly believe that the path is functional and not rigidly fundamentalist. Thanks for answering my Abhidhamma Pitaka questions. May you all be well. With omnidirectional metta, Geoff P.S. If anyone’s interested they can check out my (?heterodox?) interpretation of the Pali Sutta Pitaka at my site: http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/ You can also e-mail me through the contact page of the emptyuniverse site. 44582 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:29pm Subject: Vism.XIV,153 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 153. (xxxi) 'Specific neutrality' (tatra-majjhattataa--lit. 'neutrality in regard thereto') is neutrality (majjhattataa) in regard to those states [of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants arisen in association with it]. It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. 44583 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 / Mike's Requested Citations buddhistmedi... Hi Mike ( and interested DSG members ) - There are several more suttas about Sotapatti that I have found at AccessToInsight.com. Below is my selection from the larger set of suttas translated by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. 1. AN V.25 Anugghita Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-025.html 2. AN X.92 Vera Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html 3. MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing". Tep's remark: here we see how appropiate attention (yonisomanasikara) to the 4 Noble Truths can eradicate the lower three fetters. It is amazing! 4. AN V.179 Gihi Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05- 179.html#anatha 5. AN VII.51 Avyakata Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-051.html 6. SN LV.30 Licchavi Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-030.html 7. SN LV.1 Raja Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-001.html 8. SN XXV Okkanta-samyutta, Khandha Vagga (group of suttas) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Okkan ta Mike, I am not sure this is the kind of "citations" you wanted. Please kindly advise. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Again Tep, > (snipped) > > (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become > > Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. > > Thanks, Tep, I have read them. I don't have them indexed though-- could you > cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find > instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of trees or > attend retreats and so on. > . > > mike > 44584 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, Kel and Mike - Thank you very much, Nina, for initiation of a dialogue on breathing that is an excellent ground for the Anapanassati Dicussion, Part II. [To Mike] > I like your dialogue very much. > I always find the anapanasati difficult to understand. As Mike says, > breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept. > Yes, but the citta which attends to it is a nama, non-self. It has to be > realized as such. Citta is one of the four applications of mindfulness that > one should attend to. Also, even one knows that breathing is long, there is > still rupa impinging, and hardness or heat may appear. > [ To Kel] > Kelvin, could you please ask your teachers? We need also anutiikas for this. > I have always found these phrases difficult. > Nina, I understand that your message was directed to Mike and Kel, so it should be more appropriate for me to step aside until Mike and Kel have responded. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Mike, Tep,Kelvin. > I like your dialogue very much. 44585 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - Thank you for (unintentionally) reminding me of the Kundaliya Sutta, which helps me to remember that I have not answered that message of yours. I apologize for my error. This Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention is a classic of all discussions. I agree with Nina that it was very well written. Congratulations! I will keep the following well-said statements in my notebook: -- There is guarding of the senses or indriya samavara sila with all kinds and degrees of sati, i.e. with all wholesome moments of consciousness. -- The javana (`running through' or `active') cittas of the arahant `guard' all the time, because by nature they are all sobhana cittas. -- Naturally, when there are no wholesome cetasikas, there cannot be yoniso manasikara. -- It's not just a matter of understanding `the word' or the definitions, but rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. -- Actually even when sati grows, daily life remains very ordinary --just seeing, hearing and other experiences as usual. Thank you for writing about the Dhamma that is very convincing. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Tep, Mike, KenH & All, > > (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > 44586 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:02pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James, and all > > I find nothing wrong with bringing people back to the present > > moment; but, really, there is nothing extraordinary about that. I > > could remind you to come back to the present moment until the cows > > come home, is that really going to make a change in your mind? If > > K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the > > tools so that they will come back to the present moment without > > depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people > > self-reliant, not dependent. > Let me ramble on this point a bit. It's very interesting and important. As I said in the last post, feel free to drop this whenever you'd like. No need to push ourselves to debate when the desire (chanda) to do so is not there. But I do enjoying exchanging ideas with you and as I've said before you often say things that stick with me and make me think about things from a different angle. First of all, of course it's a gross simplification of mine to say that Kh Sujin simply reminds people to come back to present realities. There is much more going on than that, but the "is there seeing now?" kind of thing is what will first strike newcomers, who are accustomed to more speculation in discussion. She doesn't engage in speculation. Sometimes it can be very abrupt and a bit offputting, to tell the truth, to hear someone's tentative question, about fear and pain at the moment of death, for example, put aside with a quick call for a return to present realities. What some have called a "cold shower", maybe. She has the person's well-being in mind, of course, because when we are brought back to present realities, there is much less fear arising. (If it does, we can be aware of it as a conditioned nama, and it loses a lot of its power right there, even if our understanding is only intellectual.) Nina has often said that Kh Sujin doesn't like to be called a teacher she wants to be thought of as a friend in Dhamma. I think I've quoted this before, but I like St Exupery's definition of a friend as someone who "leads you back to yourself." Well, I guess our Dhamma friends lead us back to not-self! As you say, being brought back to present realities will not change our mind. Our minds are running on tracks that have been laid down over many lifetimes. It is wrong to expect to lay down fresh tracks in the short run. But all the reminders accumulate, with a conditioning power that depends on our capacity to be mindful of them and the depth of the intellectual understanding that accompanies our reflection on them. Again and again and again we are reminded to be aware of what's happening now. There is an example today, in Nina's resonses to me in the Cetasika corner. THe question was how do we develop right effort, and I answered something vague, and Nina came back with "be aware of what's happening now!" - there is seeing, thinking, rupa rather than a computer etc. Again and again we are brought back, and in that moment there is (for me at least) a moment of liberation from stories. I sit here and maybe speculate about how James will respond to this, whether he will be bored or irritated or maybe approve or what. And then a moment of awareness, it is all nama and rupa. I let go of stories about Phil, about James, there is freedom from stories. I think that's why I feel light on my toes these days, though it could be our new digs and the nice weather. I think I'm just letting go of stories far momre often, because of these small reminders from Dhamma friends. (I carry pocket notebooks with me and take a look at them now and then during the day, maybe when waiting for the train or during a coffee break or whatever. And there are always reminders in there as well.) If > > K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the > > tools so that they will come back to the present moment without > > depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people > > self-reliant, not dependent. Tools. Self-reliant. Both words are loded with danger, in my opinion. I know the Buddha told people to be self-reliant, but if he knew Westerners were going to be in his audience he might have worded it differently! We in the west are conditioned from childhood to carve out remarkable lives, to be individualistic, to be independent, to be self-reliant. I think we are prone to have very strong self-identities, much stronger, in general, than Asians. Is it the influence of western philosophy, the Greeks, I don't know. I think this is why we tend to grasp at results in the short run and seek techniques and tools. I favour smething more intuitive, less explicit. The Abhidhamma is very explicit, of course, but it doesn't leave room for explicit techniques to apply it tout de suite for increased awareness. I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but I really think it's true - when we seek techniques and expect results from them we are operating in a deluded belief that there is a self that can control cittas - and this is contrary to the teaching that makes the Buddha unique, the teaching of anatta. So we have to be patient, and intuitive. The reminders will arise more and more often through our own reflection, without help from our friends. Or will it? Who knows. I once wrote "We cannot see something and be someone at the same time." I liked that. I write it now as I reminder to myself and anyone else who reads this. It's really very liberating, in a momentary way. And then the concepts come pouring back and we are swept away again until the next reminder to be aware of what's happening in the moment, from a friend, or through ourselves, but in either case it's due to conditions. A long ramble there, James. If you could write anything that would inspire me towards a more intentional approach towards developing mindfulness, I would be glad to hear of it. And as I said, feel free to drop this at any time if you don't feel inclined to continue, and the same will go for me. Metta, Phil 44587 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, We still disagree on the meaning of the Kalama Sutta. You believe that rejecting the Buddha's teaching can sometimes be a good (kusala) thing to do. I won't try to change your mind because I don't think it matters much: It is only when we misunderstand some part of the teaching that we are ever likely to reject it. So our emphasis should be on right understanding. ---------------------------- C: > > > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" ............................... KH: > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. > > ................................. C: > The only one I recognize is dosa, i.e., suffering. ----------------------------- We should both make an effort to learn more Abhidhamma. Then, when we read the suttas, we will always know that the Buddha was talking about the five khandhas (dhammas that arise in a single moment and then disappear forever). Otherwise, we will think concepts (people, places and stories) are real - and dhammas are not real. As I said in a previous post, the Abhidhamma might seem dry and impersonal but that is, after all, the flavour of anatta. So we are making progress. :-) Ken H 44588 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:13pm Subject: Re: Right livelihood dhammanando_... Hi Ken O, > One got this question always on my mind about right > livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for > example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, > clothings etc Are you referring to the five wrong trades of the Va.nijjaa Sutta, or is it something else you have in mind? In this Sutta I don't see how even pets would be included, let alone accessories for them. ''pa~ncimaa, bhikkhave, va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa. katamaa pa~nca? satthava.nijjaa, sattava.nijjaa, ma.msava.nijjaa, majjava.nijjaa, visava.nijjaa -- imaa kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa''ti. sattama.m. (A. iii. 208) Discourse on Trades These five trades, bhikkhus, should not be undertaken by an upasaka. What five? Trading in weapons, trading in living beings, trading in flesh, trading in intoxicants, trading in poisons. These then, bhikkhus, are five trades that should not be undertaken by an upasaka. In the Atthakathaa "trading in living beings" (sattava.nijjaa) is glossed as "selling humans" (manussavikkaya). In the .Tiikaa it is clarified as referring to enslaving people (abhujissabhaavakara.na) in order to sell them. This wrong trading includes enslaving humans for sale, having others enslave them, or selling those whom others have enslaved (i.e. on their own initiative). As for trading in flesh (ma.msava.nijjaa), this is glossed in the Atthakathaa as "the rearing and selling of animals, for example, pigs and deer". The .Tiikaa adds that this refers to the rearing and killing of these in order to obtain and sell their flesh, or causing others to rear and kill them. However, unlike with slave-trading, there is no objection in this case to selling the flesh of an animal that one has not killed or had someone else kill, since wrongness in the case of trading in flesh arises from one's being the cause of the killing (vadhahetu). Best wishes, Dhammanando 44589 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:51pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi James, and all Hi Phil, I will reply to your two posts but probably not for another day. I have meetings after school since it is the end of the quarter . Metta, James 44590 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sarahprocter... Hi Geoff, --- sunnaloka wrote: > > > Hi everyone at DSG, > > I’m going to say goodbye for now as I don’t find that > what is generally being discussed here resonates with me on any > level, and I’m just not very interested in critical refutation > and debate. .... S: And yet I’ve just looked at your excellent website and found plenty that resonates with me there. I didn’t get far, but why not share short extracts from your articles, starting with the introduction on Sunna-loka and moving onto panna for people to read here and discuss if they like (as I do with Cetasikas, perhaps)??. For example, from the beginning: ***** >An Empty World (Sunna-loka) The subduing of the conceit 'I am'— That is truly the ultimate bliss. —Muccalinda Sutta Look upon the world as empty. . . Uproot the view of self and thereby go beyond death. —Sutta Nipata (v. 1119) Emptiness is not some sort of dogmatic principle or philosophical ideal, rather it is a way of experiencing reality without the filter of 'self'—a self that manifests as the various concepts and other forms of self-seeking that we habitually identify with. And it is this egoistic identity, this self-view (atta-ditthi), which causes ongoing subtle (and not so subtle) dissatisfaction and emotional conflict in our lives. In fact, our habitual identification with the mind's ongoing inner dialogue is the root cause of the majority of the collective suffering in this world.< ***** S: These are such good quotes and comments and you have a very readable style. There’s so much more to discuss in just these lines – why not give us a bit more of a chance to find common ground. Of course there will always be some members whose views resonate more with our own, but usually imho, the best discussions are with those whose views don’t resonate and with whom one has to work hard to find mutual ground. It does take goodwill and patience all round and you’ve shown plenty of these qualities in your various discussions to date, Geoff. You have a lot to contribute here. .... >If the Theravadin commentarial path paradigm works for > anyone, that is great -- who am I to criticize. It’s just not > my upaya --that’s all. I firmly believe that the path is > functional and not rigidly fundamentalist. Thanks for answering my > Abhidhamma Pitaka questions. May you all be well. .... S: No one has to accept all or any of ‘the commentarial path paradigm’ here, though I believe it is one of the few places where we can discuss commentarial notes freely. You’re very well read and you raised some extremely difficult and subtle points from the Abhidhamma that are difficult to respond to without access to the commentaries for some of us, but that’s fine – we all set our own parameters. Until very recently, we had access to very little commentarial work in English - just the Vism and Atth. Even now, there’s really very little still. I personally find it helpful and feel it enriches the suttas and Abhidhamma for me. No one else here has to share that feeling at all. Yes, we all ‘come from different Dhamma perspectives and backgrounds’ as you say – what we share in common is an interest in discussing the teachings from the perspective on the homepage – that’s all. It’s true that none of us like to see our views or those of our respected or venerable teachers being dismissed, but I think you’ll find we all experience this here (even the founders, I assure you!!). Can we ‘practice’ or learn about our mental states when challenged at such times? I also don’t accept at all that it was inappropriate for you to discuss your own experiences in the jhana threads. I appreciated your openness. I think we may all have different definitions of jhana, however. For example, you wrote that ‘jhana....is nothing more than an uplifted, concentrated mind...’. Jeff, many people here or friends have followed extreme practices of one kind or another, have spent long and intense periods in monasteries or forest traditions and have experienced ‘otherworldly’ kinds of experiences which as you say do not represent jhanas or any kind of insights. In fact, many of us would see them as quite the opposite – as delusional states of one kind or other now and perhaps this is why we tend to be cautious. Perhaps you don't agree with this approach? As the Sn quote you give above suggests, the most important aspect of the teaching is the uprooting of the idea of self and the clinging to oneself or one’s experiences in anyway. I don’t see how your views expressed to Lisa, for example, that ‘we are ‘in’ our innate consciousness all the time......etc’ and references to ‘our innate natural state....which is unconditioned (asankhata)’ either conform with the uprooting of any idea of self or can be shown to be valid even just looking at the suttas. And then there are your comments to Matheesha about ‘no supramundane jhana’ etc to discuss further. So much scope for interesting dialogue.....:-/ I’m happy (at my own slow pace ) to discuss any of these areas further with you, Geoff. More than happy ...I'd be honoured. On the other hand, if you feel that the scope of DSG is too narrow for you – looking only at the Theravada teachings as we do—I understand and would just like to thank you for all the hard work and great discussions you’ve had here with so many people. Hopefully after a break we’ll see you again if not before. I also liked your contributions to Matthew’s scientific threads a lot. Metta, Sarah p.s whereabouts in Canada are you? ============================= 44591 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings and salutations sarahprocter... Hi Lisa H (& Connie), --- Lisa wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > You can call me Lisa H., thank you for the lovely welcome and I live > in the United States, in the state of Illinois in the city of > Chicago right near the lake over by the Gold Coast area. I have a > lovely library that includes ===> > > The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Hardcover) > by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bodhi (Editor) > > The Long Discourses of the Buddha : A Translation of the Digha > Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover)by Maurice Walshe > > The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the > Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover) > by Bhikkhu Nanamoli .... S: thx for telling us where you live....I don't recall anyone else from Chicago. (Connie is from Seattle region I believe). Great texts and the best translations imo. Next on your shopping list should be the Bodhi Samyutta Nikaya. Very good. ..... > > I am a book worm and actually do know a bit of Pali and I will pick > up books that address the areas I'm working on in meditation. I > will research words that I don't understand so I can put the words > into the context of the sentence and the passage in which it is > used. I understand that pali and sanskrit words have many meanings > and change depending on how they are used in a sentence. That makes > the research even more interesting because reading the doctrine also > depends on ones own insight and wisdom. .... S: Excellent. Knowing a few basic terms of Pali helps a lot here. Connie can maybe help out for anything more complicated.....(??) ... >To really understand the > message of sutra you have to actually be there and experience it to > get the full meaning. ... S: I think I'm with you.....:-/ Now, your qus and this is where I'm looking for Connie's furher help... .... > Do you have an area on the board where you place meditation > practices? I have written mine down and I wondered if anyone else > had written their personal practice down and posted it on the board. > It would be nice to have feed back on what is going right and what > could be corrected by those wise in the ways of anapansati and > vipassana meditation. .... S: I don't think we have a board or a place where we put anything here... However, you might like to look in 'Useful Posts' in the files under: -Meditation in the texts -Satipatthana & Meditation -Vipassana -Anapanasati What else, Connie? I read your post about jhana with interest too. When you said at the start that you see jhana as 'the subtle conscious which is always there and most people aren't aware of it' or 'The Super Consciousness', I'm afraid it doesn't make much sense to me from what I understand of the teachings in the Pali canon, ie the Theravada teachings, which is what we are primarily interested in here. Thank you for your references to Yasa and others. As you say, they were 'awakened' through hearing a discourse or having many convesations with the Buddha. They had enough wisdom for the words to have sufficient impact, I believe. Lisa, thanks for all the detail and other interesting comments. Please join in any threads and keep sharing from your experiences or the (Theravada) texts above. Metta, Sarah ======== 44592 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:42am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 172 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Mindfulness right now can eventually lead to freedom from the danger of rebirth. We may think with fear of unhappy rebirth and then there is akusala citta with dosa, not mindfulness. However, we should remember that even fear can be object of mindfulness. Shortly after the dosa-múla-citta has fallen away sati may arise and it can be aware of whatever characteristic appears at that moment, no matter it is an unpleasant object or akusala citta. When there is mindfulness there is also right effort. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañ£¡«a dhammas. nilovg Hi Geoff, We are all from different backgrounds, but it is good to exchange views. Do you find this a reason to leave the list? You wrote to Rob K: < I was only ever directly discussing my own experience -- which I realize is completely inappropriate --. I do not see this as inappropriate. Nina. op 19-04-2005 22:40 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > > You are right (we can agree on this at least;-)). It’s simply > not worth debating over. We must all do the best with what we > ‘think’ we know. I certainly include myself in this > category. It has been good conversing with you. Thank you for > answering all my abidhamma questions. 44594 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 nilovg Dear Tep, Thank you for reviewing messages. your remark touches on very important points concerning the practice. Yes, I find what you say inspiring, inviting to consider more! I like the quoted text, it is useful. This text clearly shows the conditions for intellectual understanding to grow and develop into direct understanding, occurring at the first stage of vipassana ñaa.na. Listening, questioning, until we really understand what dhamma is: the reality appearing right now, such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. We begin to realize how deluded we are and that is already some progress. We should first know what we do not know. We only know the names of seeing, visible object, sati, paññaa. But by means of conversations we begin to see that citta, cetasika and rupa are not theoretical notions. They occur, they are real. What we hear needs time to sink in, and if we do not try to make a result occur soon, we do not obstruct the arising of sati of a nama or rupa. sometimes, not often. Yes, I often hear the words; is this all we have to do? There is detachment, alobha, with each kusala citta and thus also with the development of paññaa. This can help us not to cling to an idea of: I want result soon for myself, or, I want to be a wise person. Are such ideas not in the way? We think that we have pure motives, but we should watch out for moments that we are just deluding ourselves. Nina. op 19-04-2005 20:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > T: The commentarial suggestion that the namarupa-parichedda-nana > can be achieved by "studying the texts under revered teachers, > listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty > points and retaining in mind their meaning" is misleading. It invites the > reader to think that intellectual understanding (somewhat similar to the > same understanding obtained in a classroom) is enough to cause this > vipassana-nana to arise. 44595 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando (& Ken O), --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > > One got this question always on my mind about right > > livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for > > example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, > > clothings etc > > Are you referring to the five wrong trades of the Va.nijjaa > Sutta, or is it something else you have in mind? In this > Sutta I don't see how even pets would be included, let > alone accessories for them. ... S: Thank you so much for the helpful commentary details to this oft-quoted sutta. I've often wished to see the commentary to it. If it's not too much trouble, could I ask you to also provide the details for the other trades mentioned in the same way? With respect, Sarah p.s Ken O - I did write a short post on your livelihood concerns before, I don't know if you saw it. I also plan to add more in one of my 'Musings' soon following further discussions while we were in Bkk. Also, did you see Jon and Christine's recent discussion on this? And...UP-livelihood (right). 44596 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:01am Subject: Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) philofillet Hi Sarah, and all > The Vibhanga,Ch 17, 832, gives this list of objects on account of which > pride and conceit is likely to arise: > > "Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health (snip) Thanks for the comments and the vib passage, Sarah. There is an interesting discussion on one of the tapes about mana (conceit) and dosa (aversion). I listen to the talks in a random way and don't take notes, so I can't remember the details, but I know it helped me realise (at the time) that conceit does not only arise accompanied by lobha (ie attachment to self-image) but also when there's dosa. Our aversive reactions are also accompanied by conceit. I think of the times I get irritated by someone who reacts in a odd way because I'm a non-Japanese. There is aversion that is accompanied by conceit. I think that's what I heard on the tape. But when I think about it now, it would seem that the mana would only be accompanying lobha. There is attachment to the way I think things should be (everyone being nice to each other, and relaxed, despite one's race) and pride about being that kind of racism free person. And then the aversion that arises when someone behaves in a way that is contrary to my expectations. But is there conceit with that aversion, or only derived from the attachment to the self-image? I think I've learned that dosa never arises unless there is lobha first. Ayya Khema said there are only two ways to respond - with equanimity or greed. I think I have learned similar things in ADL. So although we assume aversion is the reaction, there is greed (lobha) first...So it would seem to me that there is conceit with the lobha, but I have trouble understanding it with the dosa... Do you remember the talk I'm referring to? Metta, Phil p.s A sidebar about the talks. You owe me a shirt, Sarah. One day I was listening to a talk and you made a point about what we experience is not what changes, it's just the understanding/delusion that changes, or words to that effect. I stopped what I was doing to ponder the point and forgot about the iron and burned a shirt! Also got soundly scolded by Naomi who says I get spaced out too often! 44597 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread (333) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma are like shades of our body. Our body is what exists. When the body does not exist, then there will not exist its shade. Wherever we go, our shade also move along with our body. When does that shade disappear? When the body disappears, its shade also disappears. 1)Is kamma a citta? No, kamma is not a citta. 2)Is kamma a cetasika? In general sense, no. Kamma is not a cetasika except sahajata-kamma. 3)Is kamma a rupa? No. It's definitely not. 4)Is kamma nibbana? No. Kamma is not nibbana. 5)Is kamma a reality? Hard to answer. Counter question will be 'Is the shade a reality?' I was considering whether kamma is wrongly appointed as God by many people and many other religions. Can anyone see God? Can anyone see kamma? One can see the results of kamma but not the kamma directly. If the appointed God is kamma, is it logical just to pray without ever doing good things and refraining from bad things? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Recent one is 341 now. 44598 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:46am Subject: Winning Vision... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Four Grades of Vision: The Blessed Buddha said: In this some recluse or priest by means of alert & energetic effort enthusiasm, proper rational attention & concentrated focus reaches absorption on this sole thought: In this foul body of disgusting things enclosed by skin, there are head & body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, mesentery, intestines, stomach, excrement, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, tallow, spittle, snot, urine & joint-fluid. This is the first attainment of Vision... Having done this and gone beyond it, he regards & perceives any body, own & others, as only a set of bones covered with flesh, vessels & skin. This is the second attainment of Vision... Having done this and gone further, he comes to understand & directly experience this continuous sequence of discrete conscious moments established & manifesting both in this world and the other worlds. This is the third attainment of Vision... Finally, having done this & gone even further than beyond that, he comes to understand & directly experience this unbroken stream of consciousness neither established nor manifesting in this world nor in any other world. This is the fourth attainment of Vision... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya III 105-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44599 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right livelihood rjkjp1 Dear Ken, I see you already have great answers from Venerable Dhammanando and Htoo. I read an article by an American Buddhist who refuses to pay taxes because he worries the money goes towards the American military. For me this is an extreme stand. The household life is dusty, only the monks life is wide open for right livelihood, so it takes balance. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and everyone > > One got this question always on my mind about right livelihood. > Since we cannot trade in live animals, for example pet dogs, can we > trade in dog food, accessories, clothings etc > > Ken O >