47200 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi Howard - I am sorry to have caused you some embarrassment, but the praise was not too much. By the way, no actors have ever complained about getting an over-size oscar. :-) Of course, I can take your advice and try to make my words less blunt, without being too sharp either, next time. Howard, I am happy too to have a friend like you, who strongly believes in the patipatti aspect of Buddhism. Hopefully, one day most DSG members may aslo see it the same way: i.e. the three components (pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha) are equally important. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and all) - > (snipped) > As I have already made clear, we happily have the same perspective on Buddhist practice! :-) I thank you very much for the generous praise you offer me in this post, though I admit to being a drop embarrassed by it. I also hasten to add, however, that I would have been a bit more comfortable had you responded just a wee bit more "softly" in this post and with words a bit less "blunt" (as you put it). ;-) But as to objective content, we are entirely in agreement, and it pleases me to have a friend who sees these matters as I do. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 47201 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. ksheri3 Hi All, If I may step into this mud-slinging here it seems that Tep has the misinterpretation of Nina's meanings and vice versa. Look at the possiblity of the view thru a fly's eye or in the child's kaliedescope: there are multiple versions different ways to view the topic or the statement. It could be different pairs of shoes which can give the Point of View. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > > I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like > > this, why should it matter? > > > No, it doesn't matter when people have different views. However, "in a > forum like this" anything can happen -- such as getting reprimanded for > making a joke that doesn't hurt anyone. > > The work will continue until it is finsihed, as long as there is an > appreciative audience. <...> 47202 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest ksheri3 Hi Egbert, Oh, I see, when you say "now where were we" I take it that I'm the platinum blonde on the casting couch and you're the Niles or Frazier type that resembles the meglamania which possesses the middle-class and the ABSOLUTE NEEDS of the mechanics, greese monkeys, called psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay I'll bite, nibble at this bait only to tempt your senses all the more with the meal that you believe yourself will be reeling in for the pleasure of the group you are a part of, see the proper definition of an orgy by/for Caligula. It could be a Bacchanalian orgy since I've been known to get lossed in that x-tian orgy called Carnivale or Mardi Gras. ;)) Yes, where were we? --- colette wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > > wrote: > Hi Colette, > > Now, where were we? :-) > > > > If the foundation of a building is flawed, the > entire building is > > unsafe. > > > > > > "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par > excellence. They > denote > > > quantity. Quantity is not a property of > experience. > > > > colette: I disagree! Quantity is a property of > experience since > > numbers denote quantity I can say that x% of my > life has been > devoted > > to the study of...? <...> > > ---------------- > Fair enough. When you're thinking about numbers > that's whats > happening. What I should have said is that quantity > is not a property > of anything other than thinking. colette: let me seperate this here so that I can maintain my consciouness. I agree with the above. ------- Now, I'm saying > that, hoping that > you'll agree that quantity doesn't play a role with > seeing, hearing, > feeling, smelling, tasting. colette: I have just been sitting here reading The Stream of Consciousness by William James: "How comes it about that a man reading something aloud for the first time is ables immediately to emphasize all his words aright, unless from the very first he have a sense of at least the form of the sentence yet to come, whichsense is fused with his consciousness of the present word, and modifies its emphasis in his mind so as to make him give it the proper accent as he utters it?" Here I'm representing that the quantity of experience has made the impression on the mind where the experience of the sense has been categorized and is ready to be accessed as a person accesses their computer files. Statement Vanquished, Points Colette, Advantage Colette. ;)) ---------------- The difference between > these five senses > and thinking is that thinking is learnt and the > others are not. colette: again, thinking in a particular fashion is learnt behavior, conditioned behavior. <....> It can be a state where the pain is conditioned to be overlooked, such as the case of myself and the numerous times my body has been put back together by the wisdom of surgeons -- I can overlook the pain in my mind, transcend the pain, but that only serves to place me into other states of consciousness where I find enjoyment by experiencing something not yet known or experienced by my mind. No time, sorry the group can take the rest of you as Sushi. No time to prepare the meal. toodles, colette 47203 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Driven only by fear do men go for refuge to many places philofillet Hi all I heard this passage from Dhammapada that really resonated: "Driven only by fear do men go for refuge to many places - to hillls, woods, groves, trees and shrines. Such, indeed, is no safe refuge: such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is oen released from all suffering. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order penetrates with transcedental wisdom the Four Noble Truths - suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the Noble Eightfold Truth leading to the cessation of suffering. This indeed is the safe refuge, this is the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge one is released from all suffering." (Dhp 188-192) This made me think of the sutta that Sarah mentionned as the one that had inspired her the most - I can't find the link at the moment. It is not by staying in a mountain temple, or by sitting on a meditation cushion with attention to the breath, or by applying oneself with devout intent to keeping the precepts that one penetrates the Four Noble Truths. It is only wisdom (panna) that penetrates the truth, and we can begin ever-so-gradually to develop wisdom here and now, wherever we are, and without rites and rituals and the comfort they bring. Thus we speak of courage along with good cheer and patience. On the other hand, the Buddha did teach that there are caves and trees, go there and meditate. It would be foolish to claim that there can not be good Dhamma in retreating from the world at times, and that can include retreating to a meditation cushion. But do we do so in a natural way that suits our lifestyle, in response to conditions accompanied by right understanding - or does it come from fear and fear-driven desire for fast results? It is hard to be human, and religions around the world are rooted in fear of death, fear of the unknown. Are concentrating on the breath or memorizing and intoning suttas simply subtle methods to evade this fear? For me, I know they were - thus I am letting go of such intentional practices until there is clearer understanding of my motivation. And thus I have such respect for Nina and others who have persevered without the comfort of rituals for so long with such good cheer and patience and courage. (At least as far as we can see here - we don't know our own citta most of the time let alone the other's...) Metta, Phil 47204 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation lbidd2 Tep: "Whose view do you agree with and why?" Hi Tep, I like my own view best: "paying attention" is a conceptual fabrication, like a "tree"; there's no such reality. It would be better to call it "prompted mindfulness". Larry 47205 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Howard), I don't have time to write now -- but would also just like to add my encouragement to you to continue with your series. My comments/reflections in my last post were certainly not meant to be discouraging or all your hard work in any way. In fact it is this work of yours which is stimulating the discussions and various reflections of mine and others. I'm very glad to see Howard is also joining in (and Jon W of course!!)-- I hope others will too. I saw you raised some good points in your reply to me which I'll look forward to discussing later perhaps. I do apologise if I ever sound as though I wish to 'take over' this or any other thread -- quite the opposite of how I feel!! Definitely your 'baby', Tep:). In appreciation, metta, Sarah ====== 47206 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. lbidd2 Hi Tep, The painfulness of disagreement is due to attachment. That is where the real work lies. Try to see that and learn from it. We are all afflicted by this affliction. It isn't easy to penetrate. No need to worry about what others think or do. Let your view be just a view. Larry 47207 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? lbidd2 Avidu: "My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.." Hi Avidu, May I suggest that you begin at the beginning. Do you doubt the truth of dukkha? Larry 47208 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - (Howard, Sarah, Tom, Larry and James) - The more I read your post, the more I see your subtle sensitiveness to the feeling of others. But, as James may agree with me, by being direct and even blunt (like I am) you may cut down on people's trying to second guess what your real message is. >Tep: Congratulations for your so-far most direct answers (no beating around the bush) to my questions. > Jon: Is this bush related to the George W variety? Tep : Ha! Ha! that is a good joke, Jon. Now I know you didn't think you were the victim of my "bad behavior". -------------------------------------- >Tep's Final remark: Is our successful conclusion this time due to the >fact that you've dropped the 'leadership attitude', or is it because you >have no 'leading points' or branches in your answers, or because I've >become less argumentative? > > Jon: ... Or is it because you've been am-bushed? (Just kidding, of course) Tep: Yes. Perhaps, I should create a cute nickname for myself too. How about, Tep "ambushed" Sastri ? --------------------------------------- Jon: [relating to the agreed Point #1] There are many references in the texts where the sequence of progress towards enlightenment is described as including the attainment of the 4 mundane jhanas, and/or where the attainment of enlightenment is attained with the jhanas as basis. Is it possible that these references are to be read in the light of our Agreed Point, that is to say, that for those who were already of highly developed samatha there was the prospect of both mundane jhana and enlightenment? In particular, could the mindfulness of breathing section of the Satipatthana Sutta be read as a teaching addressed to monks who werealready skilled in the practice of anapanasati samadhi (mindfulness of breathing as a subject of contemplation in samatha bhavana)? Tep: The anapanasati bhavana as taught in MN 118 (same as the thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, para 183, Breathing Treatise) has nothing to do with "mundane jhana". The paragraphs # 16 - # 168 show clearly that the 16-ground Anapanasati is a powerful method for developing the ariya-maggas, starting from the four rupa jhanas (as defined in DN 22), going all the way to the 4 arupa-jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and then the four ariya-maggas. In SN LIV.13 (Ananda Sutta) the Buddha told the Ven. Ananda as follows, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing(anapanasati), when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion". Putting the information in the Breathing Treatise (para 16 - 168) together with SN LIV.13, there should be no doubts about the nature of the samatha(8 jhanas) as being the important foundation of the Arahatta- magga & phala development. Jon, I also believe that Anapanasati itself may be too advanced for novices. Why? The long explanation follows. (I) SN LIV.13 states that Anapanasati brings Satipatthana to completetion, and MN 10 (Satipatthana sutta) presents only the first Anapa tetrad (a samatha bhavana) endowed with the "common vipassana components" {i.e. 1. "One remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body". 2. "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body (feeling, mind, mental quality)' is maintained [simply] to the extent of knowledge & recollection. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world".}. These two vipassana components together is less than the 4 anupassanas in the 4th tetrad, though. The 2nd and 3rd tetrads are equivalent to the vedana- and the citta- nupassana of MN 10. So the Anapanasati is roughly equivalent to the four foundations of mindfulness in terms of content. (II) The Visuddhimagga IX, 114 - 118 tells a story from AN IV.299-301 about the Buddha's advice to a bhikkhu who asked him, "... it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Blessed One's Dhamma, I may dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent and self-exerted". The what-to-do step-by- step instruction is as follows. 1. 'Bhikkhu, you should train thus: " My mind shall be steadied, quite stedied internally, and arisen evil unprofitable things shall not obsess my mind and remain". You should train thus.' [ A basic concentration consisting in mere unification of mind internally in the sense of in oneself.] 2. 'As soon as your mind has become steadied, quite steadied internally, bhukkhu, and arisen evil unprofitable things do not obsess your mind and remain, then you should train thus: "The mind- deliverance of lovingkindness will be developed by me, frequently practiced, made the vehicle, made the foundation, established, consolidated, and properly undertaken". You should train thus, bhikkhu'. 3. 'As soon as this concentration has been thus developed by you, bhikkhu, and frequently practiced, then you should develop this concentration with applied thought and sustained thought ... and you should develop it accompanied by equanimity'. Co. The meaning is this : 'Bhikkhu, when this basic concentration has been developed by you by means of lovingkindness, then, instead of resting content with just that much, you should make the basic concentration reach quadruple and quintuple jhana in other objects by [further] developing it in the way beginning "With applied thought" ' 4.'As soon as this concentration has been thus developed by you, bhikkhu, and frequently practiced, then you should train thus: "The mind- deliverance of compassion will be developed by me, . ..." 'you should effect its [further] development by means of quadruple and quintuple jhana in other objects, this [further] development being preceded by the remaining divine abidings of compassion and the rest'. You should train thus, bhikkhu'. 5. 'As soon as this concentration has been thus developed by you, bhikkhu, and frequently practiced, then you should train thus:" I shall dwell contemplating the body as a body" ', etc. A conclusion I can draw from the above is that the bhikkhu must train in basic concentration (Step 1), lovingkindness (Step 2), 4 rupa-jhanas (Step 3), mind-deliverance of compassion or karuna (Step 4), before he advances to kayanupassana in Step 5. Yet, Step 5 is equivalent only to the first tetrad of the Anapanasati. Therefore both Anapanasati and Satipatthana in MN 10 are too advanced for beginners, unless they have completed Steps 1 - 4. Let me stop here since the message has become too long. I'll make a revisit a few days from now. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > (snipped) > I am happy to treat the present thread as (happily) concluded, but I'd > like to leave you with a couple of questions/comments arising from our Agreed Points that you may wish to consider further (now or later). > > [AP.1] -- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight > development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending > on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, > whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". > > There are many references in the texts where the sequence of progress towards enlightenment is described as including the attainment of the 4 mundane jhanas, and/or where the attainment of enlightenment is attained with the jhanas as basis. Is it possible that these references are to be read in the light of our Agreed Point, that is to say, that for those who were already of highly developed samatha there was the prospect of both mundane jhana and enlightenment? > > In particular, could the mindfulness of breathing section of the > Satipatthana Sutta be read as a teaching addressed to monks who were already skilled in the practice of anapanasati samadhi (mindfulness of breathing as a subject of contemplation in samatha bhavana)? > > [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". > > When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of > samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. > > Consider the following passage from CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 (i.e., the translator's summary of the commentaries). > > >>>>>>>>>> > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics > of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. > > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas *occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana*. > > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before > reaching the path. ... > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. > >>>>>>>>>> > > So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). > > Hoping there are not too many 'leading' questions/points for you here ;-)) > > Jon Dubya 47209 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi All, As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. ===== Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. Thus jokes abound such as the one on why the houses of Buddhists have dirt in the corners – because they don't allow even their vacuum cleaner any attachments. Some misguided pseudo-Buddhists criticise those living a moral life as being attached to their precepts and thus praise immoral action as a sign of deep wisdom. Bah! Others in traditional Buddhist circles create fear of deep meditation by incorrectly stating that you will only get attached to the Jhânas. It all goes too far. Perhaps the pinnacle of mischievous misinformation was said by Rajneesh who claimed "I am so detached, I am not even attached to detachment" and thus conveniently excused all his excesses. The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un-Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind. Nibbana is the letting go once and for all of greed, hatred and delusion, the seeds of rebirth. Parinibbana is the final letting go of body and mind (the Five Khandhas). It is wrong to suggest that any of these stages of letting go are the same as attachment. The path is like a ladder. One grasps the rung above and lets go of the rung below to pull oneself up. Soon, the rung just grasped is the rung one is now standing on. Now is the time to let go of that rung as one grasps an even higher rung to raise oneself further. If one never grasped anything, one would remain spiritually stupid. To those without wisdom, letting go may often appear as attachment. For example a bird on the branch of a tree at night appears to be attaching firmly to the branch, but it has actually let go and is fully asleep. When a bird lets go and the muscles around its claws begin to relax they close on the branch. The more it relaxes, the more the claws tighten. That's why you never see a bird fall off a perch even when they are asleep. It may look like attachment but, in fact, it is letting go. Letting go often leads to stillness, not moving from where you are, which is why it is sometimes mistaken as attachment. So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path for it will lead to Nibbana. And don't forget to purchase the attachments for your vacuum cleaner too! ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 47211 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] egberdina Hi Jon and James and all, Please read with a jar of honey at hand, and self-medicate as required :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > Thanks for clarifying your previous posts, and my apologies for any > misunderstanding on my part. > > Let me restate the point I was trying to make. You said: > James> The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > Jon> The 'activities' you refer to here are all contained in the section on mindfulness of the body, so if they are indeed conducive to insight then it would be insight into the characteristic of rupas only. Now no such activities are given in relation to mindfulness of feelings, consciousness or dhammas, so I am wondering how you would understand the development of insight into those dhammas to occur, i.e., in the absence of any given 'conducive activites'. Herman> James already has made the point more than adequately that rupas in the suttas are not treated independently from namas, you do not have one without the other. Consequently, there are no characteristics of "rupas only" to be known, in the suttas, that is. I do not know for sure, but it seems that Jon reads the satipatthana sutta with abhidhamma glasses, and again I do not know for sure, but I think James reads the same sutta with sutta glasses. I have no doubt that all of us at dsg wish to be of assistance to one another, and I also think that a prerequisite for any discussion to be therapeutic is that sender and recipient need to be in the same "space". It would be rather funny if a well-meaning physician handed a copy of Gray's Anatomy to each of his patients with the advice to study up on it and return at a later date so that the doctor could discuss the problem at hand in his own terms. Wisdom would dictate (it did at least in the case of the Buddha) that the therapist meets the patient where the patient is at. A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where they are at. (I am not suggesting for a moment that either Jon or James see themselves or each other as therapists or patients, or that either believe they hold a superior view.) Kind Regards Herman 47212 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Hi Jon, (I'm not putting Phil in the heading because I'm not replying to or questioning or doubting anything he said). > > Philip wrote: > > > I will reflect on the value of a lot of phone calls. Probably that > >would help my father more than my mother - presumedly folks with > >Alzheimer's would benefit more from a physical presence, which I > >will rarely be able to provide, than verbal communication. (Even at > >the best of times, my mum was not one to carry on a logical > >conversation! ) But we'll see what happens. > > > > Jon wrote: > I think that's the right approach (reflecting on things and seeing what happens). Each person must make their own choices, as best they can. > There are no 'right' answers for the situational problems. > I am writing mainly because your little paragraph above pricked my interest. It did so because you are speaking sutta-speak here. Which I do not wish to dissuade you from. But in fairness to Howard and James and Tep, whose understanding of the Satipatthana sutta you nitpick to a thousand unrecognisable pieces, how does reflecting come about? How does seeing what happens come about? And whatever you answer, how do those things come about? And those? And those? I would prefer it if you didn't answer. Kind Regards Herman 47213 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 9:49pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Jon and James and all, A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma > view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that > an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired > outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where > they are at. Hi Herman Nice to see you back. Honey sales are soaring throughout the DSG world as a result! (-: Only joking, but you might like to have your jar and a large spoon handy just in case. Interested in the sutta-view/abhidhamma-view dichotomy but am afraid it doesn't help me much. Sutta-view would have to be divided further into James-sutta-view, Andrew-sutta-view and so on because it seems to me that many suttas are so lacking in detail as to give rise to multifarious and discordant interpretations. If there is a sutta that can only be interpreted in one possible way, I'd like to have another look at it. The same comments probably apply to abhidhamma-view. So ... I don't see any problem with people discussing the various meanings of suttas by giving their personal interpretations and cross- referencing them to the Abhidhamma and commentaries. The Sutta/Abhidhamma dichotomy is a red herring IMHO. The true question is - what is meant here? Do we just stick with the natural meaning of the words provided by the translator? Or are we really required to push further and look at how the meanings might be affected by core teachings like anatta and conditionality (i.e. the wider context)? As you might've guessed, I'm a "wider context" guy because I feel you are more likely to get a result closer to the Buddha's original intention. I also find it helpful to remember that spoken discourse at the time of the Buddha was governed by lots of rules and regulations about how to put and answer questions. For example, the speaker was expected to answer a question precisely - going beyond the scope of a question was frowned upon (even though it may have been extremely helpful to mugs like us). Just reading the suttas without underlying understanding of the context is likely to lead to mistakes IMHO. I'll finish here. Just a few reflections you may or may not find useful. Take care Andrew T 47214 From: "avinduandura" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura hi larry, i have no douts about dukkha as we experience it in day-to-day life. but I sholdn't worry about it if we are not going to have a re-birth. metta, avidu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Avidu: "My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I > suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is > just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.." > > Hi Avidu, > > May I suggest that you begin at the beginning. Do you doubt the truth of > dukkha? > > Larry 47215 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Jon, > Hi Herman > > Lots of meat in your post to Tep, so I hope you don't mind if I butt in ;-)) > Not at all :-) > Egbert wrote: > > >Hi Tep, > > > > > >... > >Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that no thing > >is knowable as itself (there is no essence). > > > > The way it is explained in the suttas, the quality of 'anatta' becomes > apparent when things are seen as being subject to conditions (not being > their own cause). So it is a case of conditioned/not own cause, hence > anatta, rather than anatta, hence conditioned/not own cause. == Agreed. > > I'd be interested to know more about the connection you see between > anattaness and being/not being knowable as itself (no essence). Is > there a conceptual problem with things being not of their own cause, yet > with essence? == Firstly something about essence. The problem is as follows. How things appear, and how they are, can be quite a few worlds apart, as you well know. IMHO, human perceptual processes rely on the computation of differences. So what is presented to consciousness as positive objects with seemingly inherent characteristics, are, in fact, the representations of the ever-changing difference between states of non-conscious sensing. Now, if mental objects exist only as the difference between states that no longer apply, how knowable is their self-nature (essence)? Seeing as there is no knowable essence (self-nature) in anything, because things come into being only as differences, its potential relation to anatta is a moot point :-) But I do think that anatta and anicca go hand in glove. > > >All things are a > >convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, > >or knowable as themselves. > > > > I'd like to ask about the idea of all things being a convergence of many > other things, with no thing being knowable as itself. > > As you sit before your computer and read this post there is visible > datum being experienced at the eye-door, and probably hardness through > the body door. In what sense do you understand this visible datum or > tangible datum to be a convergence of many other 'things' (as opposed to > being the product of multiple conditions)? == I don't see any difference between the convergence of many other things, and the being a product of multiple conditions. Either usage will do. As to how how they are perceived, see above re objects being presented as the difference between states. It is, however, not apparent to perception that perception is a complex composite of non-perceptual factors. But it can be apparent to reason. > > >Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of > >the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and > >predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to > >understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent > >origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) > >things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to be. > > > > > > I agree that an understanding of co-dependent origination is a necessary > part of the path to enlightenment. As I see it, this understanding > gradually develops as insight into the true nature of dhammas is > developed. Is that how you see it too? > Yes, I do. Kind Regards Herman > Jon 47216 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Naturally Luminous is Mind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Essentially Luminous but veiled by defilement is this Mind: The exalted Buddha said: Friends, I know of no other single thing, so quickly changing as the mind, insofar as it is not easy to find just one other phenomena changing equally fast. Shining bright, friends, is this mind, yet it is indeed obstructed by external defilements. Luminous absolutely, is that pure mind, when it is safely released and freed from these alien impurities. Radiant is this mind, though it is soiled by foreign obscurations. This, the ordinary unlearned persons not understand as it really is! I tell you, that is why uneducated ordinary persons neither meditate nor develop mentally. Luminous is that mind, friends, when it is purified & released from these fermented pollutions. This does the learned Noble Disciple understand as it really is. I tell you, that is why that educated Noble Disciple develops & improve mentally by training meditation.. Source: The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya I 8-11 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 Extracts http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 Complete http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47217 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 2:38am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 238 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] As regards the origin of recklessness, anottappa, we should study first what is said about the origin of its opposite, ottappa or fear of blame. We refrain from evil owing to fear of blame from without, from the “world”. Thus, fear of blame has an external origin. In the case of recklessness, anottappa, there is lack of fear of blame or punishment from the “world”. When someone, for example, steals, he may acquire a bad name, he may be punished for this crime, but at the moment of akusala citta there is no consideration of such factors and there is lack of respect for others. When there are conditions for the arising of akusala citta, shamelessness is not ashamed of akusala and recklessness does not fear its consequences. We may think that we are ashamed of and abhor killing or stealing and that we will never do such things. However, when the situation becomes difficult good intentions are forgotten and then we have no shame or fear of doing evil deeds. For example, generally we may not lie, but out of consideration for our relatives or friends we may not be ashamed of lying. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47218 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Dear Larry - Thank you very much for sharing your calm thought with me. L: The painfulness of disagreement is due to attachment. That is where the real work lies. T: Disagreement is unavoidable - even among Buddhist monks in the same monastery. Attachment is the real problem, the real solution is in letting go. L: No need to worry about what others think or do. Let your view be just a view. T: Yes, that understanding is a part of the letting go. Sincerely, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > The painfulness of disagreement is due to attachment. That is where the real work lies. Try to see that and learn from it. We are all afflicted > by this affliction. It isn't easy to penetrate. > > No need to worry about what others think or do. Let your view be just a > view. > > Larry 47219 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - It is a pleasure to communicate with you. C: If I may step into this mud-slinging here it seems that Tep has the misinterpretation of Nina's meanings and vice versa. T: I only saw misinterpretation but no mud. C: ...there are multiple versions different ways to view the topic or the statement. It could be different pairs of shoes which can give the Point of View. T: Good advice, Colette - similar to Larry's. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi All, > > If I may step into this mud-slinging here it seems that Tep has the > misinterpretation of Nina's meanings and vice versa. Look at the > possiblity of the view thru a fly's eye or in the child's > kaliedescope: there are multiple versions different ways to view the > topic or the statement. It could be different pairs of shoes which > can give the Point of View. > 47220 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Your view about "paying attention" is: It would be better to call it "prompted mindfulness". Is the term "prompted" here from the Pali 'sankhara' as in the Visuddhimagga? < prompting in the sense of prior effort exerted by the person or by others.> In what way is paying attention less than prompted mindfulness? What do you need to prompt mindfulness? Regards, Tep ====== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "Whose view do you agree with and why?" > > Hi Tep, > > I like my own view best: "paying attention" is a conceptual fabrication, > like a "tree"; there's no such reality. It would be better to call it > "prompted mindfulness". > > Larry 47221 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions/ Tep's Baby? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - Thank you for the reply. > S: > I don't have time to write now -- but would also just like to add my > encouragement to you to continue with your series. My comments/reflections in my last post were certainly not meant to be discouraging or all your hard work in any way. > T: Letting go of a thread anytime and asking another person to take over is healthy for the discussion group, it should not be interpreted as a sign of discouragement caused by the 'management'. > S: > I do apologise if I ever sound as though I wish to 'take over' this or any > other thread -- quite the opposite of how I feel!! Definitely your 'baby', > Tep:). > T: I wasn't angry or hurt by your viewpoint, Sarah. So the apology is not necessary. And there is no "baby" as far as I can see, only the Dhamma that has no ownership. Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (& Howard), > I'm very glad to see Howard is also joining in (and Jon W of course!!)-- 47222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Larry, op 02-07-2005 01:52 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: ... Also we can tell the > clinging or aversion are prompted simply by the presence of sloth and > torpor. N: We have to be careful here. It is not easy to know exactly when there are sloth and torpor. We may think about them, name them, but this is not the same as paññaa which knows their characteristics. ------- L:If sloth and torpor are not present, the clinging or aversion > may be prompted or unprompted, depending on whether they are active or > passive (or possibly there could be a definite prompt). And, as with > clinging and aversion, so also with ignorance which arises with all > unwholesome consciousnesses. --- N: Ignorance when it arises with lobha or dosa. It is very hard to tell, because ignorance is so dark. But of the moha-muulacitta which has ignorance as its only root it is not said that it is prompted or unprompted. Nina. 47223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 02-07-2005 21:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the > Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" > the "reality insights". ----- N: I am somewhat hesitant about the word conventional. Take for instance walking, 'I am walking', or feeling; I have such or such feeling, or as we read in some suttas: he is thinking that it is such and such. I believe that in all these cases there is reference to direct understanding of nama and rupa, not merely thinking. The explanation is by way of conventional terms. The passage about walking has been often mentioned here: it is not in the way of jackals who think or know that they are walking. It is stressed: seeing the body (ruupa) in the body. To return to anapanasati: the yogavacara should be aware of breath which is rupa produced by citta. He should be aware of it where it touches the upperlip. Is it possible that we both mean different things by breath? I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa produced by citta. We cling to breath and to life that depends on it. I see samatha as a means to have less clinging, it must lead to detachment. Anapanasati samaadhi is a means to have less clinging to breath. Rupa produced by citta is very subtle. It is not the air that appears when we blow, it is not the motion of the abdomen as some think. This subject is not easy as I see it. ----- H: -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects > such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such > as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order > to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the > nonconceptual level". ----- N: I fall over the word *only* you use. I have not seen in any sutta that anapanasati is the only way of directly knowing solidity, motion etc. People have accumulated different inclinations. -------- H: -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to > believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless > intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". ----- N: I understand your point: one has to practise in order to understand what anapanasati is. There is something in it. However, just starting to practise without knowing what this very subtle object of meditation is, may not be leading to the goal, it may not lead to detachment from breath. I find it useful to study the texts and Co. so that I have more understanding of the suttas on anapanasati. I would like to know what it is all about. This is not intellectual rumination as I see it. Nina. 47224 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 169 nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 169. Intro: Here the Visuddhimagga deals with the fifth up to the eighth type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: 5)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted 7)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted *** As we have seen, seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. These seventeen cetasikas include five Œuniversals¹ (cetasikas which accompany every citta), namely, contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, which accompany every citta are not reckoned here since they are not the khandha of formations. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. In this case, the universals and particulars perform their functions in the unwholesome way. For example, contact contacts the object of clinging, volition is akusala and it can motivate unwholesome deeds, attention is wrong attention, concentration focusses on the object of clinging, energy is energy for akusala. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) Furthermore, the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is accompanied by attachment, lobha, and wrong view, di.t.thi. Thus, in this context, seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations are mentioned. As we have seen, the second type is as the first type, but the inconstants of sloth and torpor may accompany the citta since it is prompted. The third type is without wrong view but the inconstant of conceit may accompany it. The fourth type is as the third type, but the inconstants of conceit, sloth and torpor may accompany it. In the following section (§ 169), the Visuddhimagga deals with the lobha-muulacittas that arise with indifferent feeling, and thus, they are not accompanied by the particular which is rapture, piiti. ----------- Text Vis.:169. (26) Those given for the first (22), excepting happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (26). ----------- N: happiness is here the translation of piiti (rapture). In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere it always arises together with pleasant feeling. Since the fifth type is without pleasant feeling, there is no piiti either. Thus, sixteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompany the fifth type of lobha-muulacitta. --------- Text Vis.:(27)And as with the fifth (26), so with the sixth too (27); but the difference here is promptedness and the inconstant [occurrence] of stiffness-and-torpor. --- N: If sloth and torpor arise the sixth type is accompanied by eighteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. ------- Text Vis.: (28) With the seventh (28) should be understood to be associated those given for the fifth (26), except views (xli); but pride (xliv) is inconstant here. ------ N: If conceit does not accompany this type of citta, there are fifteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the seventh type of lobha-muulacitta. If conceit accompanies it, there are sixteen cetasikas accompanying it. -------- Text Vis.: (29) With the eighth (29) should be understood to be associated those given for the sixth (27), except views (xli); and here too pride (xliv) is among the inconstant. -------- N: The eighth type is accompanied by at least sixteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. If sloth and torpor arise the eighth type is accompanied by eighteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. If sloth and torpor do not arise, but conceit accompanies this citta, there are seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations which accompany it. If sloth and torpor and also conceit accompany it there are nineteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations which accompany it. ********* The Buddha classified the akusala cittas rooted in attachment as eight types: four types accompanied by wrong view, four types without wrong view, four types with pleasant feeling, four types with indifferent feeling, four types that are unprompted and four types that are prompted. Although they are classified as only eight types, there is an immense variety in the cittas rooted in attachment. There are different cetasikas that accompany them and condition them by way of conascence-condition, there are different objects experienced by these cittas. There may be clinging to the objects that are experienced through the six doors with conceit, with wrong view or with attachment dissociated from wrong view and conceit. There are many kinds of wrong view to which one may cling. There are different intensities of attachment and the accompanying cetasikas. They can motivate different unwholesome deeds through body, speech and mind. Clinging to gain, to honour or praise may motivate lying and dishonesty. Because of ignorance one does not realize that there is clinging, one does not know when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta. The study of more details about the different types of cittas is beneficial. All the enumerations of cittas and cetasikas are not abstract notions, they pertain to our conduct in daily life. ****** Nina. 47225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? nilovg Hi Avidu and Larry, op 03-07-2005 01:41 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Avidu: "My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I > suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is > just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.." > Larry: May I suggest that you begin at the beginning. Do you doubt the truth of > dukkha? Nina: I would like to add, that it is useful to talk about one item of doubt at a time. It is normal to have doubts, only the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment has no more doubt. The Buddha taught that also doubt is a reality, a mental reality, and it can be realized when it arises. No other teacher has taught this. Perhaps this point may help you to gain more confidence in the Buddha. When there is a moment of confidence there is no opportunity for doubt. But all these realities are momentary. Nina. 47226 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Rob Ep message nilovg Hi Herman, Jon and all, I transferred Herman's message to Rob Ep. He said: Nina. 47227 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Colette, op 01-07-2005 16:37 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > > colette: you speak of "Doubt" since hesitation implies a tinge, the > presence of UNCERTAINTY, question. ... > > Notice the interplay between kusala and akusala. Each is in their own > respect with their own volition. They are stirred, my phraseology, > and rise respectively to the inherent volition. Now add the 'spice' > of "DOUBT, or "UNCERTAINTY", and consider, ponder, the condition of > the kusala or/and akusala after the catalyst of Doubt or Uncertainty > has been added to the mix... ------ N: Hesitation is only a means of explaining the nature of citta, it does not mean doubt as taught in the Tipitaka: doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, doubt about nama and rupa. Doubt only arises with akusala citta rooted in ignorance. Certain terms are used to explain realities, and they do not have the same meaning as terms we use in conventional language. This is difficult, but we can get used to it when we study them one at a time. Nina. 47228 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Is truth verifiable ever? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "avinduandura" wrote: > > hi larry, > i have no douts about dukkha as we experience it in day-to-day life. > but I shouldn't worry about it if we are not going to have a re- birth. > > metta, > avidu Hi Avidu, I would say the only way you can really know there will be no rebirth is to experience the end of dukkha in day-to-day life. If you doubt re-birth, why not doubt "no rebirth" as well? All we can know is what is happening now. However, for the regulation of social well-being it might be a good idea to _believe_ in re-birth and the future consequences of present good and bad actions. This belief in itself can condition the arising of kusala citta (wholesome consciousness). Larry 47229 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:44am Subject: Multifarious and discordant interpretations [was Walking Meditation ...] buddhistmedi... Hi, andrew and Herman - Andrew (to Herman in #47213): If there is a sutta that can only be interpreted in one possible way, I'd like to have another look at it. The true question is - what is meant here? Do we just stick with the natural meaning of the words provided by the translator? Or are we really required to push further and look at how the meanings might be affected by core teachings like anatta and conditionality (i.e. the wider context)? As you might've guessed, I'm a "wider context" guy because I feel you are more likely to get a result closer to the Buddha's original intention. Tep : The many meanings a sutta reader sees are fabricated by his/her own wisdom (or the lack of it) that is influenced by the individual's background and training, among other things. What is meant here? The true answer is : we don't know. Even for a much less difficult book (like a textbook, say 'Economics') the students still understand the subject matters very differently. Even those experienced economics professors, researchers and corporate economists don't generally agree on anything about the economy, so what can you say about understanding the suttas? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Jon and James and all, > A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where they are at. > > Hi Herman > > Nice to see you back. Honey sales are soaring throughout the DSG > world as a result! (-: Only joking, but you might like to have your > jar and a large spoon handy just in case. > Interested in the sutta-view/abhidhamma-view dichotomy but am afraid it doesn't help me much. Sutta-view would have to be divided further into James-sutta-view, Andrew-sutta-view and so on because it seems to me that many suttas are so lacking in detail as to give rise to > multifarious and discordant interpretations. If there is a sutta > that can only be interpreted in one possible way, I'd like to have > another look at it. > 47230 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry - > > Your view about "paying attention" is: It would be better to call > it "prompted mindfulness". > > Is the term "prompted" here from the Pali 'sankhara' as in the > Visuddhimagga? < prompting in the sense of prior effort exerted by the > person or by others.> > > In what way is paying attention less than prompted mindfulness? What > do you need to prompt mindfulness? > > > Regards, > > > Tep Hi Tep, Yes, a 'prompted consciousness' is a consciousness that is conditioned (usually) by intimation rupas, spoken or written words or gestures. One can also prompt oneself, as in "I should rouse myself and wash the dishes". All wholesome and unwholesome sense sphere consciousnesses are either prompted or unprompted. Prompted mindfulness usually entails the recollection of a sutta. But sati itself is a kind of prompt insofar as it is the recollection of Dhamma. The idea of "consciousness attending to an object" is a fanciful conception that assumes that two realities are experienced at the same time, the consciousness and the object. A careful analysis will reveal that that is never the case. When there is the experience of one of the sensations of breathing, that is all there is. There is not, at the same time, the experience of attending to something or the experience of remembering to attend to something. The simplicity of this experience is obviously conducive to tranquility, but it is also conducive to insight in that it cuts through the ties that bind, ties such as "I am attending to the breath" or "I am being mindful, what a good boy am I", or even "this is insight". Larry 47231 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Nina: "But of the moha-muulacitta which has ignorance as its only root it is not said that it is prompted or unprompted." Hi Nina, Thanks for this. Larry 47232 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 10:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. lbidd2 Nina: "This subject is not easy as I see it." Hi Nina, If I may butt in to your conversation with Howard, is what you are saying is that the breath rupas are not truly graspable? That we do not truly understand what we are craving? Isn't seeing that we don't understand, seeing this very elusiveness, cause to cease grasping? Larry 47233 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, nina - In a message dated 7/3/05 10:23:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, op 02-07-2005 21:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the > Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" > the "reality insights". ----- N: I am somewhat hesitant about the word conventional. Take for instance walking, 'I am walking', or feeling; I have such or such feeling, or as we read in some suttas: he is thinking that it is such and such. I believe that in all these cases there is reference to direct understanding of nama and rupa, not merely thinking. The explanation is by way of conventional terms. The passage about walking has been often mentioned here: it is not in the way of jackals who think or know that they are walking. It is stressed: seeing the body (ruupa) in the body. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we are both correct in this. What is the object of the meditation depends on the practitioner and the stage s/he is at. Only at advanced stages has one gotten beyond concept. ---------------------------------------------- To return to anapanasati: the yogavacara should be aware of breath which is rupa produced by citta. He should be aware of it where it touches the upperlip. Is it possible that we both mean different things by breath? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I mean both the conventional breath and the experiential realities of touch sensation, warmth, coolness, solidity, liquidity, and motion that underlie it. As one's concentration, mindfulness, and attention heighten, the "breath" recedes into the background and the rupas move to the fore. --------------------------------------------- I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa produced by citta. We cling to breath and to life that depends on it. I see samatha as a means to have less clinging, it must lead to detachment. Anapanasati samaadhi is a means to have less clinging to breath. Rupa produced by citta is very subtle. It is not the air that appears when we blow, it is not the motion of the abdomen as some think. This subject is not easy as I see it. ----- H: -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects > such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such > as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order > to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the > nonconceptual level". ----- N: I fall over the word *only* you use. I have not seen in any sutta that anapanasati is the only way of directly knowing solidity, motion etc. People have accumulated different inclinations. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. Most of us, having poor to mediocre accumulations, however, see hardness, warmth, etc (incorrectly) as aspects or features of conventional objects, and it is by turning our attention to those apparent objects that we get to observe these associated experiential realities. We don't usually note the warmth, coolness, moistness, touch, and movement associated with breath when our attention is caught in thought or other phenomena. We note these usually only when attending to "the breath". ------------------------------------------------ -------- H: -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to > believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless > intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". ----- N: I understand your point: one has to practise in order to understand what anapanasati is. There is something in it. However, just starting to practise without knowing what this very subtle object of meditation is, may not be leading to the goal, it may not lead to detachment from breath. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, it helps to know in advance what we will experience, though there is the danger of substituting that formal knowledge for direct experiential knowledge - especially for one who stops with the formal knowledge. --------------------------------------------- I find it useful to study the texts and Co. so that I have more understanding of the suttas on anapanasati. I would like to know what it is all about. This is not intellectual rumination as I see it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It may be, and it might not be. That depends on what else one does. Pariyatti is insufficient. --------------------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47234 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 10:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard./ Sarah's Breath buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Sarah and Howard) - In your reply (#47223) to Howard you stated for the first time ever that breath was a rupa. N: I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa produced by citta. T: May I ask you to kindly give your opinion about what Sarah wrote in a recent message # 47130, concerning breath being just a concept, not the kind of "rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana"? Was she wrong? >Sarah(# 47130 ): And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, > I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas > which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), > vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only >rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana > through the body-sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. Thanks. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, (snipped) > > To return to anapanasati: the yogavacara should be aware of breath which is rupa produced by citta. He should be aware of it where it touches the upperlip. > Is it possible that we both mean different things by breath? > I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa > produced by citta. We cling to breath and to life that depends on it. I see samatha as a means to have less clinging, it must lead to detachment. > Anapanasati samaadhi is a means to have less clinging to breath. > Rupa produced by citta is very subtle. It is not the air that appears when we blow, it is not the motion of the abdomen as some think. This subject is > not easy as I see it. > ----- > 47235 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? nilovg Hi Avidu, op 02-07-2005 14:50 schreef avinduandura op avinduandura@...: > OK, then my next question is what to learn. should we read/learn all > the texts which contain every thing buddha said in his 45 years? and > speaches given to thousands of people who needed buddhas help to > overcome their problem which was not related to the dhamma at all? N: No, this is not necessary and not possible. It is best to select some suttas according to your inclination. You could even begin with some suttas quoted here on the list and ask questions. A: eg, how to spend a good family life etc.. N: The Buddha spoke about lay life, such as the Sigalovadasutta. He exhorted us to develop metta, being not seeking your own comfort and pleasure, but being attentive to the needs of others. Nina. 47236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. ,Shamelessness,Recklessness , to Phil nilovg Hi Phil, op 02-07-2005 16:23 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Shame has a subjective origin, it is > influenced >> by oneself; its proximate cause is self-respect. Fear of blame has >> an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate >> cause is respect for someone else. > > Ph: I don't quite get this. "The proximate cause of recklessness > is lack of respect for someone else." .... It seems to me recklessness is also very > subjective - having fear of suffering in hell or an animal realm > because of one's behaviour feels pretty subjective and personal. ------- N: Fear of blame, ottappa, has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is respect for someone else. Someone may fear punishment, may fear the law. He will suffer the consequences of his deeds. He is considerate for what others will feel about his deeds, does not want to cause trouble to others. He has respect for the Buddha, the Teacher. (We discussed this before) The two cetasikas arise together and are very close. They both shun evil, recoil from it. We cannot pinpoint in daily life their different natures. NIna. 47237 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I like your defintion for prompted consciousness: "a 'prompted consciousness' is a consciousness that is conditioned (usually) by intimation rupas, spoken or written words or gestures". Now, according to this definition, can breaths, as the object of meditation, condition consciousness to arise? why or why not? Larry: The idea of "consciousness attending to an object" is a fanciful conception that assumes that two realities are experienced at the same time, the consciousness and the object. Tep: Are you saying that the breathing meditation, which is cognizance (citta or consciousness) attending to breaths, or breath being the object of cognizance, is a "fanciful conception"? Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing well these three ideas Can then obtain development. [para # 169 Breathing Treatise] Larry: When there is the experience of one of the sensations of breathing, that is all there is. There is not, at the same time, the experience of attending to something or the experience of remembering to attend to something. Tep: I think you are talking about the fact that only a single kind of vedana can occur in a given moment. This is not different from "consciousness attending to an object", one at a time, such as in- breath, or out-breath, or sign, etc. Here the specific vedana(e.g. joy) is the single object of the citta in that moment, similar to an out-breath is the object of the citta while the yogi is breathing out. Of course, not both in-breath and out-breath can be the object of consciousness at the same time. Please correct me if I misunderstand your intention. BTW: what is wrong with the thought, "this is insight"? Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry - > > > > > In what way is paying attention less than prompted mindfulness? > What > > do you need to prompt mindfulness? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > 47238 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:03am Subject: What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah & Nina (and Tep, and all) - In a recent post of Tep's, he quoted from your message, Sarah, in which you wrote the following: "And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana through the body-sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. So as soon as the text is referring to vipassana nanas or insights of any kind, it is referring to insights into the true characteristics of these elements – any rupas and any namas appearing only. It is not referring any more to the development of samatha, jhanas and signs of jhanas." Now, Nina, in my conversations with you, I have been maintaining that the Buddha directed the meditator to attend to conventional objects such as the breath (in order to subsequently get at the underlying experiential reqalities and their nature). But you have maintained that the meaning was to attend to the dhammas. However, he did quite specifically teach one to note when the breath is long, when it is short, and so on. [[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short.] Likewise he teaches attending to the entire "body" [[3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body,[2] and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body.], with that "body" referring either to the whole physical body or to the breath as a whole. But these meditation subjects are, as Sarah points out, conventional notions. (As I have maintained, the Buddha is directing the meditator to attend to conventional objects.) Are you and Sarah in agreement or disagreement on this issue? It really is unclear to me. Far more unclear to me is why both you and Sarah think I am incorrect in my understanding here. It seems to me that the sutta is *quite explicit* in telling the meditator to attend to conventional objects and their characteristics. Sarah, you yourself say that "Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47239 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Attn. : Nina, Howard, Sarah, Larry, Tom and others} - Your extension of Agreed Point 3 (AP.3) reflects a well-thought-out strategy. [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". Jon (expanding on AP 3): When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. Tep: In my heart "the 4 jhanas" are the same as the samma-samadhi as defined in several suttas (including DN 22). In other words, there is only one kind of jhanas that the Buddha talked about. Further, SN XLVIII.10 shows that samma-samadhi is the same as the 'faculty of concentration' in the indriya, a group within the 37 bodhipakkhaya dhamma, and this illustrates how important "the 4 jhanas" (samasamadhi) are for attaining magga-nanas. "And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration. " Jon (quoting a commentary passage from CMA): Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. Tep: Thank you for quoting from this commentary source that proposes a hypothesis on "vipassana jhana", the term for which there is no definition in the suttas. Do you have any real proof to show me that there have been "bare insight" people who achieved vipassana jhana? Jon: So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). Tep: This sounds like your Q.E.D. of the proof that says "samatha bhavana only achieves the mundane jhana which is inferior to the vipassana jhana". Before disproving your "proof", which is based on just one commentary without any real story yet to back the claim (i.e. like a hypothesis without a valid test result), let me ask you some questions as follows. Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? In your opinion is Anapanasati bhavana a samatha bhavana? Could you please define samatha bhavana? Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > (I snipped the part that was answered) > [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". > > When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of > samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. > > Consider the following passage from CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 (i.e., the translator's summary of the commentaries). > > >>>>>>>>>> > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics > of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. > > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas *occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana*. > > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before > reaching the path. ... > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. > >>>>>>>>>> > > So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). > > Hoping there are not too many 'leading' questions/points for you here ;-)) > > Jon Dubya 47240 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 169 lbidd2 Nina: "Because of ignorance one does not realize that there is clinging, one does not know when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta." Hi Nina, I would like to bring out one point. Kusala citta doesn't arise with ignorance but we don't know kusala citta (or the ultimate nature of any citta) unless it arises with wisdom (paññaa). Ordinary consciousness can know clinging or generosity as they characterize a conceptual whole such as "my clinging" or "my generosity" but only wisdom can know a consciousness as it is, simply as a khandha. Larry 47241 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation lbidd2 Hi Tep, I will try to answer your questions but these answers are at best guesses or my own opinions. Tep: "Now, according to this definition, can breaths, as the object of meditation, condition consciousness to arise? why or why not?" L: An object of consciousness is an object condition but breath rupas wouldn't usually be considered a "prompt" for prompted consciousness. Nothing is conditioned by only one condition. I believe our discussion was concerning "paying attention". The "paying" aspect of this is intention, imo, and I think in this case the intention is a matter of self prompting if correctly understood. My objection was that "paying attention" implied the experience of two realities at the same time, mindfulness and object of mindfulness. It might be easier to see this if we say mindfulness conditions the arising of the object of mindfulness which, I would say, is a wisdom consciousness consisting of an uncompounded reality. However, this is venturing rather far afield and getting way too complicated. The main point is that only one reality at a time can be experienced. Tep: "Are you saying that the breathing meditation, which is cognizance (citta or consciousness) attending to breaths, or breath being the object of cognizance, is a "fanciful conception"?" L: No, experiencing two realities at the same time is a fanciful conception. Tep: "BTW: what is wrong with the thought, "this is insight"?" L: Whatever "this" refers to is gone plus the thought "this is insight" isn't an uncompounded reality. By "uncompounded reality" I mean a khandha, an element of what the Visuddhimagga calls a "compact whole". Some people may object to this terminology because "sankhara" can mean either compounded or conditioned. Khandhas are conditioned and one of the functions of sankhara khandha is to compound. Except in the case of the wisdom cetasika which experiences consciousnesses one at a time (or, "as khandhas"). However, this is a rather loose generalization and probably an overstatement. The actual nature of experience can't really be pinned down with words, of which this has been too many. Larry 47242 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 239 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Akusala cittas arise time and again and these are always accompanied by shamelessness and recklessness. Also when the akusala citta does not have the intensity to motivate evil deeds, for example, when we are thinking with ignorance and forgetfulness of realities, there are shamelessness and recklessness performing their functions. It may seem that forgetfulness of realities is not so dangerous, since we do not harm other people by it. However, all kinds and degrees of akusala are dangerous. If right understanding is not developed defilements cannot be eradicated and we have to be subject to birth, old age, sickness and death, again and again. After there have been many moments of forgetfulness, mindfulness may arise again and then we are ashamed of our ignorance and forgetfulness of realities, and we see its danger. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? Larry nilovg Hi Larry, op 03-07-2005 19:19 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "This subject is not easy as I see it." L: If I may butt in to your conversation with Howard, is what you are > saying is that the breath rupas are not truly graspable? ------ N: No, but the object of samatha is very precise. If one does not get it, one may have wrong concentration, miccha-samaadhi. This will not lead to subduing attachment to sense objects which is the aim of samatha. One will altogether miss the goal. I see a danger here. --------- L: That we do not truly understand what we are craving? Isn't seeing that we don't > understand, seeing this very elusiveness, cause to cease grasping? ----- N: I am afraid not! But seeing that we do not understand makes us more careful. We should try to study the subject. Nina. 47244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Tep, there is no problem. Sarah speaks about insight. I would like to consider first the nimitta of breath that is the object of samatha and even to the stage of jhana. So, Howards questions are a good opportunity to go into the subject of samatha more deeply. op 03-07-2005 22:03 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Now, Nina, in my conversations with you, I have been maintaining that the > Buddha directed the meditator to attend to conventional objects such as the > breath (in order to subsequently get at the underlying experiential reqalities > and their nature). But you have maintained that the meaning was to attend to > the dhammas. ------ N: Perhaps I did not explain clearly. I wanted to make clear what breath is. It is a bodily phenomenon. It is conditioned. By what? Not by temperature, nutrition or kamma, but by citta. So long as there is citta, when we are alive, there is breath. But we cling to it, we cling to life, we cling to all objects experienced through the six doors. The aim of samatha is the elimination of attachment. Attachment to breath in this case. I think this has to be kept in mind from the beginning. In samatha one does not attend to the true nature of dhammas, the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Their true characteristics. Thus, Howard, I did not maintain that the meaning was to attend to the dhammas, that is the true nature of dhammas. The yogavacara attends to the rupa which is breath where it touches the nosetip. Some other meditation subjects of samatha are learned by sight, such as the kasinas. Breath is learnt by touch. There must be a rupa that impinges on a certain location or base. I hesitate to use the word concept, paññatti, and prefer nimitta, mental image. There is the learner's sign, when one begins, and then the nimitta becomes more perfected, becoming the counterpart sign as samatha develops. When jhaana is reached it has become very subtle. ----------- H: However, he did quite specifically teach one to note when the > breath is long, when it is short, and so on. ------ N: Yes, I am trying to understand this. He has to keep on attending to breath where it touches the nosetip, no matter the breathing is long or short. The Visuddhimagga which frequently refers to the Path of Discrimination helps me here. Ch VIII, 165: And the same for short breaths. There is an important footnote here: I think this is very essential. The Yogavacara does not have to *think* of long or short breath, but he just keeps on attending to the breath where it touches the nosetip. -------- H: Likewise he teaches attending to the entire "body" [[3] He trains himself to > breathe in sensitive to the entire body,[2] and to breathe out sensitive to > the > entire body.], with that "body" referring either to the whole physical body > or to the breath as a whole. But these meditation subjects are, as Sarah > points > out, conventional notions. -------- N: The meaning is not the whole body, but the breathing body. That is, the in-breaths and out-breaths, nothing else. He is not distracted, keeps on attending to the breath where it touches the nosetip. The Visuddhimagga renders the text:Ch VIII, 171:explaining entire body as: the entire in-breath body. But in this section the Vis. refers to insight: with consciousness associated with knowledge.> As we have seen, the first tetrad refers already to samatha and vipassana, developed to enlightenment, to the stage of the arahat. When we read body or kaayasankhara it may not be clear immediately. We have to look at the context. I do not claim to understand all of it! I try to keep to one issue at a time. Now we are dealing first with: what is breath, what is the nimitta of breath in samatha. I think we have to stick to this subject for a while. -------- H:(As I have maintained, the Buddha is directing the > meditator to attend to conventional objects.) ... (leaving out what you ask Sarah). > It seems to me that the sutta is *quite explicit* in telling the meditator to > attend to conventional objects and their characteristics. ------- N: I find the expression conventional objects not clear. It seems: O, I am breathing now and can attend to it by thinking about it. As I understand from the texts, there is a very precise procedure for the yogavacara who develops samaadhi. As said, I do not deal with insight yet. As far as I understand, the development of samatha is different from thinking in a conventional way. Nina. 47245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 169 nilovg Hi Larry, op 04-07-2005 02:21 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "Because of ignorance one does not realize that there is clinging, > one does not know when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta." > L: I would like to bring out one point. Kusala citta doesn't arise with > ignorance but we don't know kusala citta (or the ultimate nature of any > citta) unless it arises with wisdom (paññaa). ------ N: Yes, but there are different levels of wisdom. Even when paññaa is not insight, there can be a level of understanding of what is kusala and what akusala. Otherwise we could not develop kusala and abstain from akusala. ------- L Ordinary consciousness can know clinging or generosity as they characterize a conceptual whole such as "my clinging" or "my generosity" but only wisdom can know a > consciousness as it is, simply as a khandha. -------- N: That is right. So long as akusala and kusala are not realized yet as conditioned namas, we are inclined to take them for "my clinging" or "my generosity". This is so deeply rooted. Insight can know dhammas as they are. You say: simply as a khandha, and this is correct. Or, and this is the same: as elements devoid of self. Nina. 47246 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > L: To experience an object is agency. An agent is a doer. A doer is a > self. If consciousness experiences an object, consciousness is an agent. ... S: I don’t see it like that. Consciousness is a nama. Whereas a rupa cannot experience anyting, a nama can. It is just an element, not a self or a doer. When it comes to ‘agent’ or ‘subject’, it depends how these terms are mant. Let me quote from the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha itself (PTS transl), prologue p7 (as opposed to BB’s summary in CMA): “Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’(As 112) For although such causal conditions as those of support and immediate contiguity are also relevant, consciousness does not arise in the absence of an object, and therefore its characteristic is spoken of with reference to that. This rejects the view that consciousness arises in the absence of an object. Or else consciousness is the means by which the associated dhammas are conscious (cintana). For it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called ‘a dhamma with its own particular nature’ (sabhaava-dhamma). In consideration of this, it is the definition of the particular natures of ultimate dhammas that is taken as absolute; the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. .........The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc, apart from the particular nature of a dhamma.” .... > It is better to say an object conditions the arising of a consciousness. > An object and a consciousness together can only be a concept because a > compound cannot be an ultimate. Eye-consciousness plus visible object > cannot be an ultimate reality because it is two. Eye-consciousness plus > visible object cannot be an ultimate reality experience; it is a > conceptual formulation only. ... S: These are concepts which represent realities. Only one reality can be known at a time as you suggest. They are complete different dhammas dependent on different conditions, but of course they are also closely connected. As you indicate, there can be no seeing consciousness unless a visible object conditions it (along with all its other conditioning factors). ... > S: "Visible object. is just that which is seen. <...> .... > L: Hmm. Well, I think visible object is a blue/red/green blank image. > What else do we see but merely colours? .... S: We can say seeing sees colour, but what is seen is just what appears through the eye-sense. Colour is an aspect. Light, for example, is another aspect. Visible object is just like it’s always been – not some strange green blank image suddenly, If it were so, how would we be able to differentiate between visible objects? I prefer to just say ‘that which is seen’. When there’s awareness of ‘that which is seen’, there’s no doubt about what visible object is. It’s like tactile object. We say we experience hardness, but actually hardness is an aspect of tactile object. There’s also the roughness/smoothness and other aspects – just as there has always been. Or sound – just exactly that which appears to the ear-sense. ..... >Are we to say only the primary colours (red, > blue, yellow, + black and white) are paramattha dhammas while all shades > of colours are concepts? .... S: this is not right at all –sounds to me liket some strange concepts about visible objects:) ... >Just to repeat, I think > ignorance is ignorant of the three general characteristics but not > ignorant of the distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma. For example, > if I fail to see a visible object, that is not ignorance. But if I see a > visible object but fail to see that it is impermanent, unsatisfactory, > not self, then that is ignorance. .... S: Right now, there is no failing to see a visible object, but if there is no awareness of it, then there’s ignorance. Ignorance arises with every akusala citta which experiences that dhamma. So there are countless experiences of sense objects with ignorance, when certainly there’s no knowing anything about their characteristics. .... > However, 'blindness' to the intrinsic nature (sabhava) of a paramattha > dhamma is common to all consciousnesses and cetasikas except wisdom > (panna). I am making a distinction between 'distinguishing > characteristic' (which is my own invention) and sabhava.....Any ideas? [According >to Vism.,sabhava is not the general characteristics.] .... S: I’d say the sabhava is the distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma. Each dhamma has its own sabhava. No two visible objects are the same, but they have characteristics or features or aspects of that sabhava in common. How’s that? Excellent points for reflection. Metta, Sarah ==== 47247 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] A sutta here, a sutta there... sarahprocter... Good Afternoon Colette, (James & Tep), Thanks for selecting two wonderful suttas. --- colette wrote: > Good Morning Sarah, > > Ah, Hong Kong, as a sailor I took one look at a shipmates embroidery > on his "cracker jacks" as was astonished that it only takes a short > time and doesn't cost anything as it would in the states. Who > wouldn't lust after such work, huh? There are countless other aspects > of Hong Kong I could go into ... S: You certainly have some stories, Colette:) .... >however time leaves me to simply answer > your request to the sutta I found so beneficial. I'm sorry I don't > seem to have a return address on the bottom of the page however the > cover page reads as follows: > > Duddha first Sermon > Chamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta > Turning the Wheel of the Dhamma > > and > Anattalakkhana Sutta > > By > Ledi Sayadaw > U Pe Maung Tin .... S: These were the very first suttas given by the Buddha and are very, very meaningful. They contain all the teachings -- enough for those with very little dust in their eyes to become arahants when they heard them. For the rest of us dusty-eyed folk, we need to hear and reflect on a lot more, of course. Last year in India, some of us recited the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta in Sarnath (where it was first given by the Buddha) and then several times later. I found it helpful to reflect more on the eightfold path as the middle way. Here are the links to the ati translations. Why not let us know which aspects you found so beneficial in them? We’d be glad to hear – (being bold with my royal ‘we’ and speaking for Tep and James too) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html Metta, Sarah ======== 47248 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others sarahprocter... Hi Herman, Thank you for your other comments to me. When I last wrote, I also intended to pick up one point in this post of yours which Phil also commented on: --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say > they do not entertain thoughts of beings. ... S: I haven't read anyone here to say this. Even the Buddha entertained thoughts of beings. The only question is whether we think of 'beings' with right or wrong view. The aim is never to stop thinking about people. Metta, Sarah ======= 47249 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: out of social context jwromeijn Hallo Sarah Message from the Tourist Ofiice with view on the Mont Blanc --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Joop: I took a look, I was and I am satistied; that is: I still think > > that's possible to add dhammas to the list of the Dhamma Sangani. But > > better not discuss about this topic further (it's my intention to be > > more careful than some months ago) so I propose: let's agree tot > > disagree. > .... > S: Either way is fine. The cetasikas which are considered by some to be > `additions' in the Abhidammattha Sangaha are the 9 denoted by `yevapanika' > in Dhammasangani, i.e chanda, adhimokkha, manasikara, tatramajjhattata, > karuna, mudita and the 3 path factors which fall under sila. I don't think > anyone would suggest that these are new to the Abhidhamma texts. Take > karuna, compassion.....and remember the suttas on the Buddha's great > compassion.... I knew already that the added dhammas occured in the Suttas. And I am sure the social citta does too. In fact the Buddha was very social; caring and concerned about people and other beings. He was more social than many of his monk-followers; especally the monks who composed the Abhidhamma-books were rather autistic is my impression. S: Remember there's nothing so fast > as the speed of cittas and that they are far more variegated than any > picture. With almost every citta, there is vitakka `touching' the object > and other cetasikas performing their functions. So by the time there is an > `immediate awareness of the presence of another being', countless numbers > of processes of cittas have arisen and passed away after seeing or other > sense door experiences. > .... Joop: I know: and that an argument for my hypothesis that immidiate awarenes ... is a citta itself. > ... > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Not a total reaction; just a short one Metta Joop 47250 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa sarahprocter... Dear Nina, I had a few brief words with K.Sujin on this first point of yours the other day when Jon was fixing the dates for our visit to Bkk en route to and from Austalia in just over a couple of weeks. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I understood that even when there is tender insight there is no doubt > that thinking about realities is a nama-element. ... S: Of course when there is any insight or panna, there’s no doubt, but KS stressed there should be no expectation about what will be conditioned to arise in future. Conditions are different for different people. Again it has to be understanding with detachment, not expectations. Lobha is there unknowingly. If doubt hasn’t been eradicated, it can arise and sati and panna can understand it as a conditioned dhamma. They can know the level of understanding, how strong or weak it is when it arises now. All the teachings are for the development of understanding and detachment. .***** On another topic: > I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the > Sammaa-ditthi > sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): ... (S: I just tried checking but I’m looking at the wheel and it’s not on p11, which text are you looking at?) ... > conforms > with the knowledge of rise and fall of phenomena (udayabbayañaa.na) > which > precedes insight into actuality, and also with the insight of actuality > which follows the knowledge of rise and fall, in the course of the > development of penetrative wisdom (vipassanaa bhaavanaa). Only one who > is > endowed with a measure of this knowledge according to truth can see the > absence of a doer and the existence of mere doings, actions and > processes.> .... S: Thank you for this. Yes, I think anuloma nana has to be understood in context, I believe....did you have any comments here? Metta, Sarah ====== 47251 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mudita: Rejoicing Bliss ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > Unselfish Joy: How to rejoice in others Success: > > By seeing that: > If only happy at one's own success, such joy is rare & limited! > If happy also at other's success, the joy is frequent & infinite! .... S: Just a brief comment to say that I rather like this translation of 'unselfish joy' and the simple but clear reminders of its great value. Anumodana/Sadhu sadhu, Sarah ========== 47252 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Dan. I'm not sure if you're still around, so I'll keep it brief and snip most. --- "Dan D." wrote: <...> > I don't rightly know, what would have been had conditions been > different. And in retrospect, it is difficult to discern the whole > range of conditions that bring to fruition any given moment of > satipatthana or insight that may arise. Reading/hearing are certainly > associated with development. ... S: I agree with your comments here (and also Howard's that there's no point in speculating further..) ... > > I'm sure you recall a flurry of posts of mine a few years ago on > anatta, silabbataparamasa, formal sitting, drugs, etc. -- "O.K. After > these tough years of being a pain in the butt, Dan finally > understands at least SOMETHING beyond how to be a constant thorn in > the side." ... S: :-) You said it! At least when another thorn comes along, we can say, 'well, there's hope -- look at Dan';). > > What caused my "conversion" back then? A whole lot of conditions, but > the proximate cause was my reading of a fiery debate about the > distinction between "samma vayama" and "conventional right effort" > that Luther and Erasmus had in the 1520s. <...> .... S: Thanks for sharing. As discussed, conditions can be complex and something we read or hear can be just the right thing at the right time. ... > What conditions development of insight? Wise attention and listening > to clear descriptions of characteristics of reality. ... S: Yes, and what do you mean by 'reality' here in the context of your post? ... > > > for Tep's quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? > > Just one? Then, let's go with MN 1, Mulapariyaya Sutta. > .... S: Another favourite of mind too....any aspect or section you'd like to highlight? Metta, Sarah ========= 47253 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? sarahprocter... Hi Phil & James, --- Philip wrote: I am finding myself less and less prone to judging Kh > Sujin, wondering why she is considered so wise and so on, though I > still do at times, naturally enough. I understand that the point is > no being in the presence of a wise woman, but being in the company > of right understanding - whoever it is arising through. ... S: I like the way you put this. And any understanding doesn't belong to her or you or me or anyone else. Conditioned dhammas -- nothing to be proud of at all. I'm reminded of my discussion with James. James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in suttas with our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at dhammas more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and mine. You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this because I see the truths as being common or universal. We all face the same real problems in life and the same delusions. (of course, any ariyans present don't suffer from any wrong views, but still moha, lobha and dosa to be seen). And yes, I see the practice as the understanding of such presently arising dhammas for any of us. You referred to my reference to 'learning'. Even the ariyans (apart from the arahants) are learners or sekha.....learning throught the practice of satipatthana until all defilements have been eradicated. I also like your use of 'unlearning' too, unlearning of unskilful thoughts and so on. However, to me that suggests that we may have started off without them which of course isn't true...they've been accumulated in lifetime after lifetime as we wearily wander round samsara. No we can't generalise and say that whoever lives this or that kind of lifestyle will go to hell or heaven and so on, but we can generalise and say that these states of mind will lead to good and those to bad. We can also generalise and say that for anyone, there is just one eightfold path which leads to release from samsara. Thanks again for your feedback -- as you say, it was good to look at the ways we reflect and find a sutta helpful. Another short favourite sutta or rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. So, as I see it, no need to cultivate more thoughts about 'me', when we're already experts at that. Again, you will see this differently, I'm sure. Metta, Sarah ========== 47254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Sarah, op 04-07-2005 10:48 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I had a few brief words with K.Sujin on this first point of yours the > other day when Jon was fixing the dates for our visit to Bkk en route to > and from Austalia in just over a couple of weeks. > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> N: I understood that even when there is tender insight there is no doubt >> that thinking about realities is a nama-element. > ... > S: Of course when there is any insight or panna, there’s no doubt, but KS > stressed there should be no expectation about what will be conditioned to > arise in future. --- N: I cannot remember in what context I wrote this. Was it the first point of questions? I cannot remember that I had questions. But as I understand, cinta-mayaa-paññaa can have different meanings. It is not simply just intellectual thinking about nama and rupa as we do now. This term is also used for tender insight, but I do not think much of these stages since they are beyond me at this moment. Of course, doubt can arise when one is not yet a sotaapanna. > .***** S: On another topic: >> I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the >> Sammaa-ditthi >> sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): > ... > (S: I just tried checking but I’m looking at the wheel and it’s not on > p11, which text are you looking at?) ------- N: my old edition, just a quote. It is in the Co on Ch I, in the beginning, right understanding is twofold.... >> > conforms >> with the knowledge of rise and fall of phenomena (udayabbayañaa.na) > .... > S: Thank you for this. Yes, I think anuloma nana has to be understood in > context, I believe....did you have any comments here? N: I think it is an example that anuloma does not only refer to the insight just before enlightenment. We were considering the insight of the Bodhisatta before, equanimity about formations and also concluded that this is not necessarily, in his case, just before enlightenment. Nina. 47255 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 5:42am Subject: Re: What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - Thanks to Nina for taking time and being patient to answer questions. N: I do not claim to understand all of it! I try to keep to one issue at a time. Now we are dealing first with: what is breath, what is the nimitta of breath in samatha. I think we have to stick to this subject for a while. T: That is exactly what I call relevancy of the ongoing presentation (that is still at the ground 1 of the first tetrad). Thank you for initiating the one- idea-at-a-time approach. ------------------------------ N: The Yogavacara does not have to *think* of long or short breath, but he just keeps on attending to the breath where it touches the nosetip. T: Thinking is not meditating. N: As far as I understand, the development of samatha is different from thinking in a conventional way. T: You may say that again and often. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard and Tep, > Tep, there is no problem. Sarah speaks about insight. I would like to > consider first the nimitta of breath that is the object of samatha and even to the stage of jhana. So, Howards questions are a good opportunity to go into the subject of samatha more deeply. > 47256 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/4/05 3:31:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Tep, Tep, there is no problem. Sarah speaks about insight. I would like to consider first the nimitta of breath that is the object of samatha and even to the stage of jhana. So, Howards questions are a good opportunity to go into the subject of samatha more deeply. op 03-07-2005 22:03 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Now, Nina, in my conversations with you, I have been maintaining that the > Buddha directed the meditator to attend to conventional objects such as the > breath (in order to subsequently get at the underlying experiential reqalities > and their nature). But you have maintained that the meaning was to attend to > the dhammas. ------ N: Perhaps I did not explain clearly. I wanted to make clear what breath is. It is a bodily phenomenon. It is conditioned. By what? Not by temperature, nutrition or kamma, but by citta. So long as there is citta, when we are alive, there is breath. But we cling to it, we cling to life, we cling to all objects experienced through the six doors. The aim of samatha is the elimination of attachment. Attachment to breath in this case. I think this has to be kept in mind from the beginning. In samatha one does not attend to the true nature of dhammas, the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Their true characteristics. Thus, Howard, I did not maintain that the meaning was to attend to the dhammas, that is the true nature of dhammas. The yogavacara attends to the rupa which is breath where it touches the nosetip. Some other meditation subjects of samatha are learned by sight, such as the kasinas. Breath is learnt by touch. There must be a rupa that impinges on a certain location or base. I hesitate to use the word concept, paññatti, and prefer nimitta, mental image. There is the learner's sign, when one begins, and then the nimitta becomes more perfected, becoming the counterpart sign as samatha develops. When jhaana is reached it has become very subtle. As said, I do not deal with insight yet. As far as I understand, the development of samatha is different from thinking in a conventional way. Nina. =========================== Thank you, Nina. I understand your intention now. Actually, I view anapanasati bhavana as the Buddha taught it to be a kind of in-tandem, samatha-vipassana cultivation, with samatha bhavana being primary at the outset, and with vipassana coming to the fore as useful factors develop and hindrances subside. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47257 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 4:27am Subject: Mutually Happy ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarah abbott who wrote: >I rather like this translation of 'unselfish joy' & >the simple but clear reminders of its great value. When 'you' are happy, 'I am' happy... When 'I am' happy, 'you' are happy... It is connected and infectious ;-) : - ] 47258 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 2:18am Subject: Why Not? ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Pros and Cons of Hedonism: Change!!!: If, friends, one is not freed of lust, desire, attraction, thirst, passion and craving for the manifold various forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, then with the inevitable change in & alteration of these forms, feelings, experiences, constructions & types of consciousness, one invariably experiences disappointment, dissatisfaction, discontent, frustration, sorrow, pain and despair... !!! One who lives immersed in these derivatives of greed, therefore suffers in this very life from the continual fever of wanting, needing, hankering, vexation and urge... Moreover, when dying and this body is breaking up, the greedy can expect a bad destination!!! This is the immanent danger & side-effect of desire & craving... If, however, one is freed of all lust, desire, attraction, thirst, passion and craving for the manifold various forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, then with the inevitable change in & alteration of these, one does not experience any disappointment, dissatisfaction, discontent, pain, frustration, sorrow, nor despair... Not living immersed in these derivatives of greed, one does therefore not suffer from any fever of neither wanting, nor vexation nor urge. Moreover, when dying & this body is breaking up, such cooled & calmed one can expect a good destination!!! This is the quite blissful advantage and assured benefit of removal desire and craving here & now... Hunting pleasure produces delayed & hidden pain... Relinquishing pleasure gives ease now & bliss later... Source: Venerable Sariputta, General of the Dhamma. The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 7-9 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47259 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/4/05 3:58:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Let me quote from the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha itself (PTS transl), prologue p7 (as opposed to BB’s summary in CMA): “Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’(As 112) For although such causal conditions as those of support and immediate contiguity are also relevant, consciousness does not arise in the absence of an object, and therefore its characteristic is spoken of with reference to that. This rejects the view that consciousness arises in the absence of an object. ======================== Yes, it does. However, the language here is less than optimal and does create the sense of an agent. The sentence "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object." is not a good one. This language presents consciousness as an entity that does something - that knows an object - rather much as people speak of persons knowing things. This is a misleading and even dangerous mode of explanation. It would be better to say that conscious is the knowing of an object or the event that is the experiential presence of an object. Consciousness should be presented as a cognitive event, and not as some "thing" that knows. It is an operation, function, or event, but not some "thing" that knows. A "thing" that knows is a kind of subject or self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47260 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 6:30am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Jon, You write: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different teachings." Don't you think that there is great benefit to describing things in a variety of ways? And continue: "It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-)). But perhaps you see some particular benefit?" Each is a description of realities and their conditional relations. Descriptions and the things described are strikingly different, and separating the two is central to the Dhamma. Reflecting on how the same realities can be described by very different words helps clarify the distinction between concept and reality. Metta, Dan 47261 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 6:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... onco111 Dear Sarah, > S: :-) You said it! At least when another thorn comes along, we can say, 'well, there's hope -- look at Dan';). HA! I'm still a thorn, but I'm a feather in your cap too. > S: ... As discussed, conditions can be complex and > something we read or hear can be just the right thing at the right time. Yup. Lots of ways to describe realities, and one of the descriptions of one aspect might be just the right thing at the right time. This is what makes a live teacher (at least a really good live teacher) so much better than reading -- he/she can discern what needs to be heard at the moment it needs to be heard and then provide it. 99.9% of the time reading doesn't give the right thing at the right time. > ... > > What conditions development of insight? Wise attention and listening > > to clear descriptions of characteristics of reality. > ... > S: Yes, and what do you mean by 'reality' here in the context of your > post? > ... I was thinking in particular about silabbataparamasa and samma- vayama. > > > for Tep's quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? > > > > Just one? Then, let's go with MN 1, Mulapariyaya Sutta. > > > .... > S: Another favourite of mind too....any aspect or section you'd like to > highlight? Oh, Sarah, you are so hard! This sutta is so rich with meaning that I don't know where to begin. But very briefly, it discusses two central topics -- the beginning is the development of a clear understanding of the distinction between reality and concept and that the end is the deep understanding that the "I" is also concept that arises as/with/in attachment to either concept or reality. It's been awhile since I've read this one, so no details. Metta, Dan 47262 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for clarifying certain things for me, now I understand what you mean when you say : "Experiencing two realities at the same time is a fanciful conception". There is one issue remaining. You are trying to explain a conventional truth, using the truths about ultimate realities, concerning "This is insight". Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Tep: "BTW: what is wrong with the thought, "this is insight"?" > > L: Whatever "this" refers to is gone plus the thought "this is insight" > isn't an uncompounded reality. By "uncompounded reality" I mean a > khandha, an element of what the Visuddhimagga calls a "compact whole". Some people may object to this terminology because "sankhara" can mean either compounded or conditioned. Khandhas are conditioned and one of the functions of sankhara khandha is to compound. Except in the case of the wisdom cetasika which experiences consciousnesses one at a time (or, "as khandhas"). However, this is a rather loose generalization and > probably an overstatement. The actual nature of experience can't really > be pinned down with words, of which this has been too many. > > Larry 47263 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, reading your former post again something strikes me. Beginning with the first sentence. op 03-07-2005 19:33 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > op 02-07-2005 21:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > >> -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the >> Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" >> the "reality insights". ---------- N: And again further on: -------- H: "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional > objects such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such >> as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order >> to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the >> nonconceptual level". ----------- N: I may misunderstand you, but it seems that you think that mindfulness of breath itself leads to this. From the texts I understand that the yogavacara attains jhaana with this subject and that he then, after having emerged from jhaana, has to develop all the stages of insight. He has to be mindful of whatever nama or rupa appears, including the jhaanafactors. Now, I just read your last post: ----------- H:Actually, I view anapanasati bhavana as the Buddha taught it to be a kind of in-tandem, samatha-vipassana cultivation, with samatha bhavana being primary at the outset, and with vipassana coming to the fore as useful factors develop and hindrances subside. -------- N: I also think that both are developed. We found this in the Path of Discrimination: serenity and insight. But there are different interpretations as to in which way. Nina. Nina. 47264 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, One comment from the commentary you quoted: "the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking." L: I understand "a relative manner of speaking" to mean "not really". See long quotation in next post, "knowing an object". As for the nature of visible object, you could well be right that it is one consciousness of multiple colors and brightnesses (aka "light"). I don't have a clear experiential sense of it. Could you give an example of visible object (paramattha dhamma) as object of desire? Regarding the question of where in the Satipatthana Sutta is there an indication of cognizing own-nature (sabhava) you answered that own-nature is the distinguishing characteristic of a reality. I think we have to say a little more than that. Eye-consciousness 'knows' (in the Biblical sense) the distinguishing characteristic of visible object which is color or light. But only wisdom (paññaa) 'knows' the own-nature of visible object. I would propose that own-nature is the elemental nature. In other words, the parts of an apparent whole. In the suttas this is discussed as khandhas, and the commentaries refined this with the doctrine of momentariness, i.e., one consciousness at a time. I think "body in the body" is a precursor to that. What this means is that all consciousnesses except one rooted in wisdom 'know' only 'wholes', while a wisdom consciousness is the experience of that apparent whole as a congeries of elements. For this reason, I would say what desire desires is always an apparent whole, which in abhidhamma is classified as a concept. Larry 47265 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:23pm Subject: knowing an object lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Here is a quotation from the Visuddhimagga that may help in understanding what it means to know an object: Vism.XV,41 Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as sugarcane or sesamum, the visible-data element as the [sugarcane] mill or the [sesamum] wheel rod, and the eye-consciousness element as the sugarcane juice or the sesamum oil. Likewise, the eye-element should be regarded as the lower fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper fire-stick, and the eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in the case of the ear and so on. 42. The mind element, however, should be regarded as the forerunner and the follower of eye-consciousness, etc., as that arises. As to the mental-data element, the feeling aggregate should be regarded as a dart and as a stake, the perception and formations aggregates as a disease owing to their connexion with the dart and stake of feeling. Or the ordinary man's perception should be regarded as an empty fist because it produces pain through [disappointed] desire; or as a forest deer [with a scarecrow] because it apprehends the sign incorrectly. And the formations aggregate should be regarded as men who throw one into a pit of hot coals, because they throw one into rebirth-linking, or as thieves pursued by the king's men because they are pursued by the pains of birth; or as the seeds of a poison-tree, because they are the root-cause of the aggregates' continuity, which brings all kinds of harm. And materiality should be regarded as a razor-wheel (see Jaa.iv,3), because it is the sign of various dangers. The unformed element, however, should be regarded as deathless, as peace, as safety. Why? Because it is the opposite of all ill. 43. The mind-consciousness element should be regarded as a forest monkey, because it does not stay still on its object; or as a wild horse, because it is difficult to tame; or as a stick flung into the air, because it falls anyhow; or as a stage dancer, because it adopts the guise of the various defilements such as greed and hate. Larry: As a stage dancer a consciousness rooted in greed adopts the guise of greed, not the guise of the object of greed. As a mirror the eye-element reacts to visible data; the eye-consciousness element is that reaction. In both cases there is a relation to an object but it is misleading to say consciousness cognizes the object. Larry 47266 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:27pm Subject: Vism.XIV,170 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 170. (30)-(31) As regards the two [kinds of unprofitable consciousness] rooted in hate, there are, firstly, eighteen associated with the first (30), that is, eleven constant given in the texts as such, four or-whatever-states, and three inconstant. Herein the eleven given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), (xlv) hate, delusion (xl). The four or-whatever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), agitation (xlii), attention (xxx) The three inconstant are these: (xlvi) envy, (xlvii) avarice, (xlviii) worry. 47267 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 9:10pm Subject: 7 Invisible Diamonds ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Good Mental Qualities: What are they? The Faith of conviction. The Shame of conscience. The Fear of wrongdoing. The Learning of intelligence. The Awareness of mindfulness. The Understanding of wisdom. Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya III 252 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html The Moderated Speeches of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya I 356 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 47268 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil & James, > > --- Philip wrote: > > I am finding myself less and less prone to judging Kh > > Sujin, wondering why she is considered so wise and so on, though I > > still do at times, naturally enough. I understand that the point is > > no being in the presence of a wise woman, but being in the company > > of right understanding - whoever it is arising through. > ... > S: I like the way you put this. And any understanding doesn't belong to > her or you or me or anyone else. Conditioned dhammas -- nothing to be > proud of at all. I'm reminded of my discussion with James. > > James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in suttas with > our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at dhammas > more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and mine. James: I didn't comment about 'dhammas', I commented about the content of suttas. > You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this because I > see the truths as being common or universal. James: Then, in other words, you speak in a generalized way because you believe that you embody the 'truths'? Do you believe that everyone embodies the 'truths'? Aren't there differences between people? Why can't you single yourself out as being different from others? Why can't you see the dhamma in a more personalized way, as applying to you and your life? We all face the same real > problems in life and the same delusions. (of course, any ariyans present > don't suffer from any wrong views, but still moha, lobha and dosa to be > seen). And yes, I see the practice as the understanding of such presently > arising dhammas for any of us. James: Again, I wasn't talking about 'dhammas', I was talking about DN 8 "The Great Lion's Roar". The Buddha doesn't mention 'dhammas' in that sutta. > > You referred to my reference to 'learning'. Even the ariyans (apart from > the arahants) are learners or sekha.....learning throught the practice of > satipatthana until all defilements have been eradicated. I also like your > use of 'unlearning' too, unlearning of unskilful thoughts and so on. > However, to me that suggests that we may have started off without them > which of course isn't true...they've been accumulated in lifetime after > lifetime as we wearily wander round samsara. James: It doesn't suggest that to me because I consider anatta and know that there isn't a fixed 'starting point'. I wonder why you see anatta in places that I don't and I see anatta in places that you don't? ;-) > > No we can't generalise and say that whoever lives this or that kind of > lifestyle will go to hell or heaven and so on, but we can generalise and > say that these states of mind will lead to good and those to bad. We can > also generalise and say that for anyone, there is just one eightfold path > which leads to release from samsara. Agreed. > > Thanks again for your feedback -- as you say, it was good to look at the > ways we reflect and find a sutta helpful. Another short favourite sutta or > rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika > which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. James: No, that sutta said that Queen Mallika found herself dearest, not that everyone does that; and the Buddha agreed that we should each hold ourselves dearest. Maybe you should re-visit that sutta. So, as I see it, > no need to cultivate more thoughts about 'me', when we're already experts > at that. I wasn't suggesting to cultivate more thoughts about 'me'; I was suggesting that maybe it isn't healthy or natural to blur the distinctions between me, you, and us. > > Again, you will see this differently, I'm sure. James: Oh, let's focus more on where we agree than where we disagree. Believe it or not, I am trying to work toward agreement. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== Metta, James 47269 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 11:31pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 240 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] We read in As it was said (Itivuttaka, The Twos, Chapter II, §3, Khuddaka Nikåya): * "This was said by the Exalted One… “Monks, ignorance leads the way to the attainment of unprofitable things; shamelessness and disregard of blame follow after. But, monks, knowledge leads the way to the attainment of profitable things, shrinking and fear of blame follow after.” This is the meaning… Whatso be these ill-bourns in this world and the next, All rooted are in ignorance, of lust compounded. And since the wicked man is void of shame, and has No reverence, therefore he works wickedness, And through that wickedness he to the Downfall goes. Wherefore forsaking longing, lust and ignorance And causing knowledge to arise in him, a monk Should give up, leave behind, the ill-bourns one and all…" * When we see that all akusala dhammas are ugly and impure, we do not neglect mindfulness of realities, such as hardness, seeing or sound which appear at this moment. This is the only way to develop the wisdom which can eradicate defilements. For the arahat there are no conditions for akusala and thus shamelessness and recklessness do not arise. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47270 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > S: Of course when there is any insight or panna, there’s no doubt, but > KS > > stressed there should be no expectation about what will be conditioned > to > > arise in future. > --- > N: I cannot remember in what context I wrote this. Was it the first > point of > questions? I cannot remember that I had questions. ... S: It was in the context of a discussion you were having with Phil & Dan (starting June 11th) which I joined in. .... > But as I understand, cinta-mayaa-paññaa can have different meanings. It > is > not simply just intellectual thinking about nama and rupa as we do now. > This term is also used for tender insight, ... S: Yes. ... > but I do not think much of > these > stages since they are beyond me at this moment. Of course, doubt can > arise > when one is not yet a sotaapanna. ... S: Yes, all agreed.I may well have misunderstood sth you wrote before about 'no doubt' or 'no thinking'. .... > > .***** > S: On another topic: > >> I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the > >> Sammaa-ditthi > >> sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): > > ... > > (S: I just tried checking but I’m looking at the wheel and it’s not on > > p11, which text are you looking at?) > ------- > N: my old edition, just a quote. It is in the Co on Ch I, in the > beginning, > right understanding is twofold.... ... S: I still can't find it - are you looking at Nanamoli wheel transl? the new version is revised by Bodhi (maybe missed out). I don't think I have my original anymore - we replaced many old, bug-infested copies. I do have nin n2 "knowledge in conformity with the truths (saccaanulomika~naa.na) is conceptual knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, accompanied by understanding and acceptance of them." Anuloma - in conformity with... .... > >> >> conforms > >> with the knowledge of rise and fall of phenomena (udayabbayañaa.na) > > > .... > N: I think it is an example that anuloma does not only refer to the > insight > just before enlightenment. We were considering the insight of the > Bodhisatta > before, equanimity about formations and also concluded that this is not > necessarily, in his case, just before enlightenment. > Nina. ... S: Right - KS also stresses the different meanings of anuloma in the texts. In the particular passages we were discussing before with Dhammanando, even if the comy passages made it clear that anuloma was referring to just before enlight, I don't believe, as I wrote in a 'Musings', it means knowl about formations had to be in that life. I also came across another ref in Dispeller to the cula-sotapanna and fixed destiny etc. **** new topic ...... #47111 Vism, conceit Wonderful reminders. I always appreciate the ones about the banner and 'vaingloriousness' or 'flaunting of a flag'. on the India 01 tapes, KS was speaking graphically about flying the 'empty balloon'. Just air....conceit on account of mere elements - visible object, sound, hardness and various namas which don't belong to anyone. So absurd!! When she refers to the balloon, do you think it's another translation of the Pali used for banner or her own metaphor? Just curious. Many thanks for all your work (& Larry's) on these installments. Metta, Sarah ========= 47271 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm sarahprocter... Hi RobM, Always good to see the Robs around.... we're waiting for Rob Ep to make a star appearance too:). --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. ... S: I'd be interested to hear any of your comments on the article. Do you agree with it all? Anything to discuss? Btw, pls take a look at Alice's post #47180. You probably didn't see it, but a short while ago she told us the sad story of how her young niece had been bullied and had jumped from a roof-top to end her young life. The father she refers to in this post is the girl's father. Alice lives in Penang. You may have some helpful comments too. See also Phil's post #47189 w/regard to yr book in case you have further comments. I forget what else, another earlier one of Phil's perhaps? You could search for Rob, but you might get another Rob or two in the process:). Metta, Sarah p.s Are you in KL or back in Canada for the summer? We have another new member, Tom A from Toronto -- he hasn't missed a day of meditation since 1968 if I recall correctly. ===== 47272 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! / Susima Sutta sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I've hesitated about continuing this thread, but a few comments perhaps... ... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > The Susima Sutta is probably one of a few that strongly supports > gaining insight knowledge directly -- the overwhelming majority of the > suttas are about samatha first then vipassana, vipassana first then > samatha, or samatha-vipassana yoked together. Thanissaro > Bhikkhu's note on Susima Sutta is very imformative and should be > read. ... S: Thank you for posting it. I agree that if one reads the sutta alone, that it's possible for some, like B.T. to read it with the interptetation he does. However, if one reads it in the light of its commentary especially or Abhidhamma (or possibly even other suttas), I think it's impossible to read it this way as suggesting jhanas must be attained first. So it may come down to whether we give our own interpretations or those of the ancient commentators more credence, don't you think? Samatha-vipassana are yoked together, as I understand, at the vipassana nanas. There is samatha (calm) with each moment of kusala. Pehaps you are referring to jhana attainement or samatha development at least in your comments above? There is a lot in U.P. on this topic generally - 'Susima', 'Jhana & Nibbana' etc, but I don't mind if you'd like to pursue it. Metta, Sarah ======== > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.70: Susima Sutta, About Susima > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced > the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this > assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that > they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the > definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they > have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical > contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states > beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no > different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions > > for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and > AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings > on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new > arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first > jhana before attaining Awakening. [endquote] 47273 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Detachment sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > > Hi all > > A, Sujin: "If panna is keen enough it can follow any reality with > detachment. So they rise together - right understanding and detachment." > > Is detachment the cetasika alobha? ... S: Yes. Pls see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38066 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38303 Sometime I also double-checked with K.Sujin that it is alobha she is referring to when she talks about detachment and she agreed it was. Metta, Sarah ========= 47274 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 robmoult Hi Alice, I have been following your story with interest. I am a Mat Salleh living in KL, teaching Abhidhamma for the past few years at Brickfields Vihara on Sunday mornings. Have you met with Ven Suvanno at Mi Tor Si Vihara? He has an excellent collection of Dhamma Talks in Hokkien on CD. They would make great listening material during your travel to and from the office. I would like to share with you my view on your niece's death. During her life, your niece had an influence on many other people. It sounds as though she was a pleasure to be around. She had an impact on those close to her and because of that impact, those close to her were changed, ever so slightly, for the better. This change in the people close to her caused an even slighter change in other people with whom they came into contact. And the circle of influence spread. I think of a pebble thrown into a pond. The waves move out in concentric circles. Even though the source of the disturbance is gone, the waves continue and the centre-point of the ripples remains the same. I encourage you to celebrate the existence of your niece. Depression was a natural first reaction. That's okay and expected. It gives time for the open wound to heal over. Karuna, Rob M :-) 47275 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:41am Subject: on the book by Pa auk sayadaw and other qus of LK's sarahprocter... Hi LK, I have several of your old posts to respond to, but have delayed because I haven’t seen your name for a while. I’ll make a brief start and maybe you can kindly confirm you’re reading the message. As there are several unrelated points, I’ll use note form: 1. off-list, you kindly wrote: LK: > Thank you very much for all your great kindness so far . > > "pabhassaramidam bhikkhave cittam " > > As I wrote earlier, Pa auk sayadaw referes to that verse in 4th > chapter of his book "The light of wisdom " > > There are only the 1st to 3rd chapter at > http://www.btinternet.com/~maunglwin/nibbanacom/l_of_w01.htm#lightofwi > sdom > where I posted before. > > If you like to read the complete English version, you can request it > at http://www.geocities.com/wave_books/freebooks.htm > > If you read Chinese , you can download the chinese version on > http://www.nmzx.com/xmfk/a5.html ... S: As I wrote before, I appreciated all your help here. (I don’t read Chinese). Luminous – v.difficult topic. I understand, it can either refer to the rupas (as Pa auk Sayadaw makes clear and is referred to in connection with the imperfections of insight (the obhaasa) as Nina also recently referred to #47138, and also the cittas as Ven Samahita referred to recently #47216. As I understand, all cittas are clear (pandara), but some, such as the bhavanga cittas referred to in this sutta, AN 1:11 are also luminous (pabhassara) along with all others except for akusala cittas. Also the rupas conditioned by these which have wholesome roots (as the commentary and sub-commentary clarifies). We had another long discussion on this last time we were in Bangkok and I intended to write more by way of a Musing, but ran out of steam (also on stages of insight and some of the points I raised in a post to Tep the other day). Other Qus that may not have been answered or I may have missed when I was travelling (pls ignore if so): 2. #43751 You asked (to Howard): ‘Were those rebirths in Jataka (as animals) taken after his rebirth as a Sumeda who aspired with firm resolution to become a Buddha?’ ... S: Yes, as I understand. All the Jatakas refer to lives as a bodhisatta. The stories within the main Jataka stories may be to previous lives before these. ***** 3. #43508 you quoted (to Joop): ‘Although the Theravada holds than anybody can be a Bodhisattva...’ S: I think this is quite wrong. Very specific conditions. ‘The decision is left to the individual whether to take the Path of the Sravaka or the Pratyekabuddha or of the Samyaksambuddha’. S: No, this is not the Theravada teaching as I understand it. Also, just because someone writes or says ‘may I become a Buddha’ does not mean they are a bodhisatta. Same for the comment about all the bodhisattas in Theravada Buddhist countries just by their vows or resolutions. ***** #43744 you asked (to RobK) ‘What are the objects of Buddha’s knowledge of past and future?’ S: I understand that as the quote you gave said ‘ entirely actual experience since it is devoid of assumption based on inference, tradition or conjecture’. In other words, paramattha dhammas, explained in conventional language. In other words ‘formed’ and ‘unformed’ dhammas, using concepts about these. ***** #43869 you asked (to Tep): ’What and Where are the cetasikas in the lokuttaracitta when the subsequent reviewing knowledge takes one of them as its object?’ S: Completely fallen away, but the characteristic of that citta or cetasika can be the object of the reviewing knowledge. It’s exactly the same as when a mind door citta takes a sense door object such as visible object or sound as object. It also helps me understand the Qu of yours before. ***** #43747 you wrote (to Charles D) ‘As far as I know, Theravada says that there were and are and will be Bodhisattas in the human, deva and brahma realms whereas Mahayana says Bodhisattvas were and are and will be in all the 6 realms.’ S: Someone else needs to help me clarify here.... Bodhisattas can also be reborn in animal and even hell realms as we read in the Jatakas....They are not sotapannas. ***** That’s it for now. Very interesting points of yours that I’d put aside, waiting for your appearance! Hope to hear from you. Feel free to break them into different threads, if there are any to pursue further. I’ve given very cryptic comments here according to my very limited understanding of the points. Metta, Sarah ======= 47276 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. > ... > S: I'd be interested to hear any of your comments on the article. Do you > agree with it all? Anything to discuss? > ===== I thought that Ajahn Brahm did an excellent job of explaining attachment and reconciling this with formal meditation practice. This is a point that I have been trying (unsucessfully) to communicate with Ken H. My wife just returned from a 10 day retreat with Ajahn Brahm (I stayed at home and played "Mr. Mom"). She signed me up for Ajahn Brahm's next retreat in Malaysia, to be held in December. ===== > p.s Are you in KL or back in Canada for the summer? We have another new > member, Tom A from Toronto -- he hasn't missed a day of meditation since > 1968 if I recall correctly. ===== Wow! That is quite a record. Still in KL on the weekends; rest of the week, still traveling about Asia. Probably won't make it home to Toronto this year. Metta, Rob M :-) 47277 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Hallo Sarah > > Message from the Tourist Ofiice with view on the Mont Blanc ... S: Which one? Chamonix?? i'm thinking of the internet in the tourist office in Kandesteg -- but no view of Mont Blanc...wish we were with you!! ... > I knew already that the added dhammas occured in the Suttas. And I am > sure > the social citta does too. In fact the Buddha was very social; caring > and > concerned about people and other beings. He was more social than many of > > his monk-followers; especally the monks who composed the > Abhidhamma-books were rather autistic is my impression. > S: The greatest imaginable and unimaginable compassion and metta. All the disciples had different accumulations – look at Maha Kassapa who led a very ‘secluded’ life but who was so very highly esteemed and presided over the First Council proceedings. We can’t judge someone’s compassion or lack of it by how sociable they are can we? I think that those who preserved the teachings were extremely compassionate. I know that the Abhidhamma seems very dry and ‘social-less’, but I think that if we take away the stories in the suttas, the same ‘skeleton’ of dhammas is there. Just more details in the Abhidhamma.... Look at Sariputta who elaborated on the Abhidhamma.....great compassion and happy to be like the dustrag for others to ‘tread on’ in anyway. ..... >>. So by the time there > is an > > `immediate awareness of the presence of another being', countless > numbers > > of processes of cittas have arisen and passed away after seeing or > other > > sense door experiences. > > .... > Joop: I know: and that an argument for my hypothesis that immidiate > awarenes ... is a citta itself. ... S: Or cetasikas arising with cittas.... Enjoy the rest of your hikes....hope you’re having good weather. We had snow at this time last year in your region. Metta, Sarah ======== 47278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg]conceit. nilovg Dear Sarah, op 05-07-2005 09:12 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I always appreciate the ones about the banner and 'vaingloriousness' or > 'flaunting of a flag'. on the India 01 tapes, KS was speaking graphically > about flying the 'empty balloon'. Just air....conceit on account of mere > elements - visible object, sound, hardness and various namas which don't > belong to anyone. So absurd!! When she refers to the balloon, do you think > it's another translation of the Pali used for banner or her own metaphor? ---- N: Ketu is a banner and dhajo is a flag. The balloon is not in the text, but it is also very effective to convey the absurdity of conceit. Nina. 47279 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 robmoult Hi Alice, You might want to download the MP3 file on "Buddhist Attitude Toward Death and Life" by Ajahn Brahm from the following site: http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?cid=4&lid=197 He is a very entertaining speaker, well versed in the Dhamma. Karuna, Rob M :-) 47280 From: "balancing_life" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 3:32am Subject: The Chant of Metta balancing_life The Chant of Metta Flash animation of The Chant of Metta. groups.northwestern.edu/bsg/Metta.htm The Chant of Metta Aham avero homi abyapajjho homi anigho homi sukhi-attanam pariharami Mama matapitu acariya ca natimitta ca sabrahma-carino ca avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Imasmim arame sabbe yogina avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Imasmim arame sabbe bhikkhu samanera ca upasaka-upasikayo ca avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Amhakam catupaccaya-dayaka avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Amhakam arakkha devata imasmim vihare imasmim avase imasmim arame arakkha devata avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Sabbe satta sabbe pana sabbe bhuta sabbe puggala sabbe attabhava-pariyapanna sabba itthiyo sabbe purisa sabbe ariya sabbe anariya sabbe deva sabbe manussa sabbe vinipatika avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Dukkha mucantu Yatha-laddha-sampattito mavigacchantu Kammassaka Puratthimaya disaya pacchimaya disaya uttaraya disaya dakkhinaya disaya puratthimaya anudisaya pacchimaya anudisaya uttaraya anudisaya dakkhinaya anudisaya hetthimaya disaya uparimaya disaya sabbe satta sabbe pana sabbe bhuta sabbe puggala sabbe attabhava-pariyapanna sabba itthiyo sabbe purisa sabbe ariya sabbe anariya sabbe deva sabbe manussa sabbe vinipatika avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Dukkha muccantu Yatha-laddha-sampattito mavigacchantu Kammassaka Uddham yava bhavagga ca adho yava aviccito samanta cakkavalesu ye satta pathavicara abyapajjha nivera ca nidukha ca nupaddava Uddham yava bhavagga ca adho yava aviccito samanta cakkavalesu ye satta udakecara abyapajjha nivera ca nidukha ca nupaddava Uddham yava bhavagga ca adho yava aviccito samanta cakkavalesu ye satta akasecara abyapajjha nivera ca nidukha ca nupaddava May I be free from enmity and danger May I be free from mental suffering May I be free from physical suffering May I take care of myself happily May my parents teachers, relatives and friends fellow Dhammafarers be free from enimity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of thenselves happily May all yogis in this compound be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May all monks in this compound novice monks laymen and laywomen disciples be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May our donors of the four supports be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May our guardian devas in this monastery in this dwelling in this compound may the guardian devas be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May all beings all breathing things all creatures all individuals all personalities may all females all males all noble one all worldlings all deities all humans all those in the four woeful planes be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering may they take care of themselves happily May all beings be free from suffering May whatever they have gained not be lost All beings are owners of their kamma In the eastern direction in the western direction in the northern direction in the southern direction in the southeast direction in the northwest direction in the northeast direction in the southwest direction in the direction below in the direction above may all beings all breathing things all creatures all individuals all personalities may all females all males all noble one all worldlings all deities all humans all those in the four woeful planes be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering may they take care of themselves happily May all beings be free from suffering May whatever they have gained not be lost All beings are owners of their kamma As far as the highest plane of existence to as far down as the lowest plane in the entire universe whatever beings that move on earth may they be free from mental suffering & enmity and from physical suffering and danger As far as the highest plane of existence to as far down as the lowest plane in the entire universe whatever beings that move on water may they be free from mental suffering & enmity and from physical suffering and danger As far as the highest plane of existence to as far down as the lowest plane in the entire universe whatever beings that move in air may they be free from mental suffering & enmity and from physical suffering and danger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta is a Pali word meaning loving-kindness. Metta chanting is the radiation of loving-kindness towards all beings: May they all be happy, peaceful & sound. Imee Ooi chants the Pali beautifully in the first track and in the second track she renders it wonderfully, too, in English with the Pali faintly audible in the background. Metta chanting is soothing, uplifting, joyful and a great healing for the world ~ pervading it with waves of love. Truly, may all beings be happy. May they live always in peace & harmony. Distributed by Sukhi Hotu Sdn Bhd 11A, 1st Floor, Jalan SS24/8, Tmn Megah, 47301 Petaling Jaya, Malaysia. Tel: 603 7062833 Fax: 603 7062733 42V, Jalan Matang Kuching, 11500 Air Hitam, Penang, Malaysia. Tel: 604 8277188 Fax: 604 8277118 Email: sukhihotu@... Online listening metta.ram - RealAudio for 56k modem metta28.ram - RealAudio for 28k modem metta28.wax - Windows Media Audio for 28k modem Downloads metta.mp3 - MP3 64kbps Stereo (4,362KB) metta.rm - RealAudio for 56k modem (2,265KB) metta28.rm - RealAudio for 28k modem (1,447KB) metta28.wma - Windows Media Audio for 28k modem (1,416KB) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 47281 From: "balancing_life" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 3:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism - To Rob balancing_life Thanks a lot, Rob, for taking your time & trouble, to write to me, regarding your explanation about my niece...i appreciate it. Unfortunately, i live in Penang, so where can i get this CD of Ven Suvanno? I have heard of his name before somewhere...i think he is quite famous here in Penang also, but heard that he has retired from giving talks already or in seclusion somewhere. At the moment, i am listening to this, which is very relaxing, soothing & calming, to my nerves :- (will email the wordings/lyrics in another email as it is quite long) The Chant of Metta Flash animation of The Chant of Metta. groups.northwestern.edu/bsg/Metta.htm & in one of the wordings is "kammasaka", meaning "All beings are owners of their own kamma". After hearing this, i also realised that there was nothing i could have done for her and sad to say, but i am quite relieved to hear of that. Also, i am listening to the "Ta Bei Chou/Chow" or called the Great Mantra in Sanskrit/Pali, but sadly i have been unable to find the wordings/lyrics to this song, as i would really like to learn how to chant it...perhaps, Rob or anyone here have any leads to this? Namaste to all, :} AliceInAfterWorkingHoursLand (6.30pm, Tuesday, 5th July) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: Hi Alice, I have been following your story with interest. I am a Mat Salleh living in KL, teaching Abhidhamma for the past few years at Brickfields Vihara on Sunday mornings. Have you met with Ven Suvanno at Mi Tor Si Vihara? He has an excellent collection of Dhamma Talks in Hokkien on CD. They would make great listening material during your travel to and from the office. <...> 47282 From: "balancing_life" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 3:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhismLand - Thanks Rob balancing_life Hi Rob, Thanks again for your care & concern about our welfare, Rob. Will download it the moment, when i have the time for it, as i have recently moved office and still haven't unpacked my office stuff as yet as i am still in the process of doing back-logged work, since we moved 2 weeks ago & a host of ad-hoc jobs as well. Namaste & Peace to all, :} AliceInAppreciationOfRobLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Alice, > > You might want to download the MP3 file on "Buddhist Attitude Toward > Death and Life" by Ajahn Brahm from the following site: > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?cid=4&lid=197 > > He is a very entertaining speaker, well versed in the Dhamma. > > Karuna, > Rob M :-) 47283 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism - To Rob robmoult Hi Alice, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "balancing_life" wrote: > Thanks a lot, Rob, for taking your time & trouble, to write to me, > regarding your explanation about my niece...i appreciate it. > > Unfortunately, i live in Penang, so where can i get this CD of Ven > Suvanno? > > I have heard of his name before somewhere...i think he is quite > famous here in Penang also, but heard that he has retired from giving > talks already or in seclusion somewhere. ===== Ven Suvanno's temple is in Penang. Jalan Ayer Hitam past the roundabout on the way to Penang hill, turn left after the white apartment building, park at the end of the street and climb the hill to the small Vihara on your right. (Directions are approximate, one of your friends at the Mahindarama Temple should be able to give more precise directions). It is true that Ven Suvanno is old (86) and not well. He has retired from public speaking, but he is a delight to visit. You can ask him for a set of his CDs. Sister Metta is usually around and could get a set for you as well. I suggest that you visit him some day before 11:30 so that you can offer lunch dana. ===== > > At the moment, i am listening to this, which is very relaxing, > soothing & calming, to my nerves :- (will email the wordings/lyrics > in another email as it is quite long) > > The Chant of Metta ====== Is this the CD by Imee Ooi? If so, it is one of the most beautiful CDs I have ever heard. If you don't have this CD by Imee Oooi, I strongly recommend you get it (it can be bought from Sukhi Hontu in Penang). ===== > Flash animation of The Chant of Metta. > groups.northwestern.edu/bsg/Metta.htm > > & in one of the wordings is "kammasaka", meaning "All beings are > owners of their own kamma". > > After hearing this, i also realised that there was nothing i could > have done for her and sad to say, but i am quite relieved to hear of > that. ===== Celebrate her life, don't dwell on her death. The mental states of you and her father are creating your kamma. Let your niece be a condition for positive, healthy mental states to create good kamma! ===== > > Also, i am listening to the "Ta Bei Chou/Chow" or called the Great > Mantra in Sanskrit/Pali, but sadly i have been unable to find the > wordings/lyrics to this song, as i would really like to learn how to > chant it...perhaps, Rob or anyone here have any leads to this? ===== Sorry, can't help you on this. If it is in Sanskrit, it is a Mahayana Sutra and I would not be familiar with it. Metta, Rob M :-) 47284 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 nilovg Hi Rob M, Nice to see you again. I appreciate what you wrote to Alice, and I can apply it in my situation, still mourning for my father after five months. As you say, the wound needs time to heal. But I like the pebble simile. We still have his speeches in Parliament, his memoires, and my niece wirtes a book about him. All the good he has done can still be noticed. Ripples going on. Thanking you for your words, Nina. op 05-07-2005 10:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > She had an impact > on those close to her and because of that impact, those close to her > were changed, ever so slightly, for the better. This change in the > people close to her caused an even slighter change in other people > with whom they came into contact. And the circle of influence spread. > > I think of a pebble thrown into a pond. The waves move out in > concentric circles. Even though the source of the disturbance is > gone, the waves continue and the centre-point of the ripples remains > the same. > > I encourage you to celebrate the existence of your niece. Depression > was a natural first reaction. That's okay and expected. It gives time > for the open wound to heal over. 47285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]Bodhisattas nilovg Hi Sarah, Yes, in many lives he was a wise animal, or a leader of the herd. Also in Hell, he referred to that in the Mughapakkha Jataka. Nina. op 05-07-2005 10:41 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: Someone else needs to help me clarify here.... Bodhisattas can also be > reborn in animal and even hell realms as we read in the Jatakas....They > are not sotapannas. 47286 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. ksheri3 good Morning Nina, et al, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > > op 01-07-2005 16:37 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > > > > colette: you speak of "Doubt" since hesitation implies a tinge, the > > presence of UNCERTAINTY, question. ... > > > > Notice the interplay between kusala and akusala. Each is in their own > > respect with their own volition. They are stirred, my phraseology, > > and rise respectively to the inherent volition. Now add the 'spice' > > of "DOUBT, or "UNCERTAINTY", and consider, ponder, the condition of > > the kusala or/and akusala after the catalyst of Doubt or Uncertainty > > has been added to the mix... > ------ > N: Hesitation is only a means of explaining the nature of citta, it does not > mean doubt as taught in the Tipitaka: doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, > the Sangha, doubt about nama and rupa. colette: Well said. ---------- > Doubt only arises with akusala citta rooted in ignorance. colette: Fancy that, what is ignorance? After my automobile accident causing my first and most profound near death experience I regained consciousness, boy am I in trouble using that word by my own definition of non-definition, I found an insatiable urge to EXPERIENCE as much and whatever I could. It almost seems as though there was the little man on my should asking me questions like: how do you know, are you sure, etc. <...> Citta & Cetaseka interesting aspects of a conditioned reality. My understanding of a citta is simply the realization, see the judicial process called "Discovery" where the arbituers reduce individuals to nothing more than a set of equations in a two dimensional format. I am definately considering the condition you state below that may give my mind better enlightenment, yet I've got the urge for Zolog and Vipissanna meditations, this wk. -------------- > Certain terms are used to explain realities, and they do not have the same > meaning as terms we use in conventional language. This is difficult, but we > can get used to it when we study them one at a time. colette: yes, things have to be rationalized, realized, and acquired, one at a time. Very methodical I may add. toodles, colette 47287 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] A sutta here, a sutta there... ksheri3 Hi Sarah, The Sutta I read helped me to express my actual feelings more precisely, to verbalize the words sort-of-speak. I'll just go down and reply directly to the valuable portions. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Good Afternoon Colette, (James & Tep), > > Thanks for selecting two wonderful suttas. > > --- colette wrote: > S: You certainly have some stories, Colette:) colette: you should hear the fish story about the one that got away, right after I got the fish that fed these multitudes of people. ;)) I was having quite the day fishing when this happened. ----------------------------------- > cover page reads as follows: > > > > Duddha first Sermon > > Chamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta > > Turning the Wheel of the Dhamma > > > > and > > Anattalakkhana Sutta > > > > By > > Ledi Sayadaw > > U Pe Maung Tin > .... > S: These were the very first suttas given by the Buddha and are very, very > meaningful. They contain all the teachings -- enough for those with very > little dust in their eyes to become arahants when they heard them. colette: the sutta I focussed on was the first about "the not self" or "not my self". I believe that it takes a strong committment to reach this stage of vision since the aspirant, as it was in my case, has to observe the world directly around them and the world as an aggregate, the big picture, and be able to seperate them. For instance they say "All Politics Are Local" which I take to mean that the focus should be on the home not on the state or country or ... yet to grasp the world one has to be able to see it as a home before personalizing the home into their own. In the Navy the easiest way for the people in Boot Camp to teach us the absolute requirement that we be able to fight fires is by reminding us that since we would be floating in the middle of the ocean and allow the fire to burn then we are burning our own survival to the ground, or in that case, in the drink. Ya can't rely on somebody to come and get ya, ya gotta fight that fire. Back to the sutta. In being able to view the world in different ways while maintaining the possessiveness needed to cling to it then I believe the aspirant can see that, for instance, this body is not mine, it is not who I am, my Self, it is simply the vehicle I have at this time to attend to things as well as learn, etc. It isn't who I am, I am deeper than the flesh, we all are deeper than the flesh, it is just "skin deep" huh? I'm led to hear Mick Jagger saying "When you're old, when you're old, Nobody will know..." --------------- > > For the rest of us dusty-eyed folk, we need to hear and reflect on a lot > more, of course. Last year in India, some of us recited the > Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta in Sarnath (where it was first given by the > Buddha) and then several times later. I found it helpful to reflect more > on the eightfold path as the middle way. > > Here are the links to the ati translations. Why not let us know which > aspects you found so beneficial in them? We'd be glad to hear – (being > bold with my royal `we' and speaking for Tep and James too) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html colette: I look forward to reading the above sutta tonight. I'll have to wait for the lower sutta. ;)) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html -------------------------- thanx for the ideas Sarah. toodles, colette 47288 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Rob M and all, I have been without a computer for several days. It is good to be back and to know all is well at DSG. Rob M wrote to Sarah: ------------- > I thought that Ajahn Brahm did an excellent job of explaining attachment and reconciling this with formal meditation practice. This is a point that I have been trying (unsucessfully) to communicate with Ken H. ------------- It's very nice of you to think of me, Rob. Since you have such a high opinion of Ajahn Brahm's teaching I should be careful with what I say. I wouldn't want to be controversial. :-) ---------------- RobM quoting the article by Ajahn Brahm: > "Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. Thus jokes abound such as the one on why the houses of Buddhists have dirt in the corners – because they don't allow even their vacuum cleaner any attachments. Some misguided pseudo-Buddhists criticise those living a moral life as being attached to their precepts and thus praise immoral action as a sign of deep wisdom. Bah! ----------------------------- Attachment (lobha) is an akusala dhamma, and we shouldn't let AB or anyone tell us otherwise. Lobha should be understood, directly and indirectly, as inherently dangerous and capable of leading us away from the Path. The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. When someone sits in formal meditation, his aim is to get rid of attachment and have detachment instead. It is not enough for him to understand attachment and detachment: he wants detachment for himself. This is his form of attachment, and it is not the way taught by the Buddha. Furthermore, I should point out that DSG people who downgrade the efficacy of rite and ritual (or mere rules and precepts) are not disparaging "those living a moral life." They are pointing out the difference between real morality and ritualistic morality. ------------------------------- AB: > Others in traditional Buddhist circles create fear of deep meditation by incorrectly stating that you will only get attached to the Jhânas. -------------------------------- Does anyone at DSG state that? We are all deeply respectful of samatha-bhavana - it is an extremely high form of kusala. Mundane jhanas are subject to attachment, but that is not the objection I (and perhaps others) have expressed. I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) -------------------------------------------------------------------- AB: > It all goes too far. Perhaps the pinnacle of mischievous misinformation was said by Rajneesh who claimed "I am so detached, I am not even attached to detachment" and thus conveniently excused all his excesses. --------------------------------------- I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. --------------------- AB: > The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. ---------------------- AB seems to have deviated from the texts here. Upadana and lobha are the same paramattha dhamma. Any difference is a matter of degree. --------------------------------------- AB: > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The five mundane khandhas are the five aggregates of upadana. Therefore everything - with the exceptions of Nibbana and the Eightfold Path - is subject to attachment. And attachment is always akusala - never kusala. (It is always "un-Buddhist.") ---------------------- AB: > Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un- Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. --------------------- It is mischievous to equate the Buddha's teaching of dana, sila and bhavana with the conventional appearance of compassion, the ritualistic acceptance of rules and precepts and any form of *trying* to have right mindfulness. More than mischievous, it is a slander against the Buddha the Dhamma and the sangha. ------------------------- AB: > Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. ------------------------- That's true, but only in the ultimate sense. Conventional, ritualistic, practice is not a paramattha dhamma: it is only a concept and, therefore, it has no inherent characteristics - either kusala or akusala. The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. --------------------------------------- AB: > The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind. Nibbana is the letting go once and for all of greed, hatred and delusion, the seeds of rebirth. Parinibbana is the final letting go of body and mind (the Five Khandhas). It is wrong to suggest that any of these stages of letting go are the same as attachment. ---------------------- Let's be perfectly clear: No one on DSG has ever said that alobha is the same as lobha. ----------------------------- AB: > The path is like a ladder. One grasps the rung above and lets go of the rung below to pull oneself up. Soon, the rung just grasped is the rung one is now standing on. Now is the time to let go of that rung as one grasps an even higher rung to raise oneself further. If one never grasped anything, one would remain spiritually stupid. To those without wisdom, letting go may often appear as attachment. For example a bird on the branch of a tree at night So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path for it will lead to Nibbana. ------------------------------ Lobha is an akusala dhamma. It has never been - and it will never be - a factor for enlightenment. ------------- AB: > And don't forget to purchase the attachments for your vacuum cleaner too!" ------------- At last, this article has told us something useful! :-) Ken H 47289 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. > > ===== > > Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is > that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into > their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only > specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five > senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation > may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' > the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take > up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to > rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further > suffering, only these four are to be avoided. > >. > > So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists > who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach > without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path > for it will lead to Nibbana. +++++++++ Dear RobM, I think the Buddha did not praise upadana, even to good states: Majjhima Nikaya 22 "Bhikkhu when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states". Robertk 47290 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. > > > > ===== > > > > Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles > is > > that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into > > their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. > > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only > > specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five > > senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that > liberation > > may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking > up' > > the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take > > up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to > > rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further > > suffering, only these four are to be avoided. > > > >. > > > > So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate > Buddhists > > who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach > > without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the > path > > for it will lead to Nibbana. > +++++++++ > Dear RobM, > I think the Buddha did not praise upadana, even to good states: > Majjhima Nikaya 22 > "Bhikkhu when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft you should > abandon even good states, how much more so bad states". > Robertk ===== I will be getting on a flight in a few hours and had planned that time to prepare a reply to Ken H's mail. Since you have only picked out one point for discussion, I will reply to you first. I haven't crossed over the steam yet, so I still need to cling to my raft. Once I have crossed over, I won't need to carry my raft with me. But for the moment, I am still attached to the Dhamma. I understand intellectually that the nature of the raft is that at some point in my journey, I will abandon it. Nevertheless, part way across the stream is not the point to abandon the raft. In the Suttas, the Buddha made many exhortations to monks and laypeople (but not to Arahants). I interpret Ajahn Brahm's statement as being of the same vein. Metta, Rob M :-) 47291 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 8:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm Evan_Stamato... Ken, Wow!!! What a strong statement. I would not want to be one who is the originator of that statement. I think it shows great attachment to views. You seem to be saying that there are 2 types of jhana. Those taught and practiced many thousands of years ago and those taught and practiced today. Jhana is jhana as far as I can understand and thousands of years doesn't change the nature of jhana. Back in the time of the Buddha, as today, there are reports of lay people who can attain jhana. Some easily, some not so easily. I don't see what is so different today. Kind Regards, Evan --------------- Ken Howard: I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. 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We specifically exclude all liability for viruses, defects or anything similar in any email or attachment. 47292 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Open-handed Generosity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Generosity: The first mental Perfection: And what is the treasure of generosity? When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness, living at home, is freely generous & open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to every request &, enjoying the giving of alms. Such is this treasure called generosity. AN VII 6 Just as a filled pot, which is overturned pours out all its water, leaving nothing back, even & exactly so should one give to those in need. whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot, holding nothing back. Jataka Nidana [128-129] The Generosity of Giving, The Kindness in Speech, The Benefit of Service, The Impartiality treating all Alike, These 4 threads of sympathy upholds this world like the axle do the cart. AN II 32 Giving food, one gives & gets strength Giving clothes, one gives & gets beauty Giving light, one gives & gets vision Giving transportation, one gives & gets ease. Giving shelter one gives all, Yet one who instructs in the True Dhamma - The supreme Teaching of the Buddhas - Such one gives the quite divine ambrosia! SN I 32 These are these five rewards of generosity: One is liked and charming to people at large, One is admired & respected by wise people, one's good reputation is spread wide about, One does not neglect a householder's true duties, and with the break-up of the body - at the moment of death - one reappears in a happy destination, in the plane of the divine worlds. AN V.35 There are these two kinds of gifts: material gifts & gifts of Dhamma. The supreme gift is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: material sharing & sharing of Dhamma. The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of help: Material help & help with the Dhamma. This is the supreme of the two: help with the Dhamma . It 98 The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts. Dhammapada 354 The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the king deity in disguise, who desired to test him. He remembered "While I was wishing to give, while I was giving and after this giving there was neither contrariety nor opposition in mind as it was for the purpose of awakening itself! Neither were these eyes nor the rest of myself disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave the eyes. The Basket of Conduct Cariyapitaka I-8 Full story: Sivi Jataka no. 499. The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body as alms by jumping into a fire: He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food. Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms there was none equal to me. In alms I had thereby reached ultimate perfection." From then & the rest of this world-cycle the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign. Sasa-Jataka no. 316 Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job, position, wife, & child is the first perfection of giving. Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, & senses is the second higher perfection of giving. Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the ultimate perfection of giving. The clarifier of sweet meaning 89 (Commentary on Buddhavamsa) Madhuratthavilasini [59] Venerable Buddhadatta: 5th century. Generosity is the first mental perfection (parami): Clinging creates internal panic and social tension. Giving creates internal elation and social harmony... What is gladly given returns more than thousandfold. PS: Please included the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! <....> 47293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 11:49pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 241 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Restlessness Uddhacca, translated as restlessness, agitation, excitement or confusion, is another akusala cetasika which arises with each akusala citta. The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 250) gives the following definition of uddhacca: * "… It has mental excitement as characteristic like wind-tossed water; wavering as function, like a flag waving in the wind; whirling as manifestation like scattered ashes struck by a stone; unsystematic thought owing to mental excitement as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as mental distraction over an object of excitement." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 165) gives a similar definition(1). The commentaries illustrate with similes that when there is uddhacca, there is no steadiness, there is not the stable condition, the calm, of kusala. When there is uddhacca there is forgetfulness of kusala, whereas when there is mindfulness, sati, there is watchfulness, non-forgetfulness of kusala, be it generosity, morality, the development of calm or insight. Mindfulness is watchful so that the opportunity for kusala is not wasted. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §429. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47294 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Thank you for your kind email letters. I enjoy discussing the Dhamma with you and I’m very glad to see your discussion with RobM as well. I was glad to read all your comments about ‘transferance of merits’ or sharing of merit and appreciate all your dana. I agreed with all your comments and kind deeds. It doesn’t matter whether we call ourselves Buddhist or Taoist if we have good intentions. If you have time (I know you have limited internet access), please also look at saved messages under ‘Merit – transfer/share of’ in ‘Useful Posts’ in the files section of DSG. You’ll find a good one from RobM included too. .... Let me discuss a little more about kamma and vipaka with you: --- balancing_life wrote: > At first, my brother questioned everyone in his ex-wife's family on > how she fell, and after the funeral, he went to the school to > investigate as he suspected it has something to do with her > school...and eventually the truth came out. .... S: We can say the cause of any misfortune is the way others have acted and so on, but from a Buddhist perspective, the experiencing of good and bad results through the eyes, ears, body-sense can only occur if the kamma has been performed to bring about such results. So it is by kamma that we experience harsh sounds or bodily pain or other difficulties. It’s useless to blame others and feel angry because then we not only forget the real cause of suffering, but we also just gather up more anger and anguish which leads to further difficulties. The only solution is to develop more metta and understanding at such times. Of course, the teachers and other students at the school will have also felt the greatest remorse and unhappiness as well. Forgiveness is a kind of generosity which will help all your family to live more easily as well as the others involved. .... > On the day of my niece's death anniversary, my brother was still > angry with the antics of her school mates and school teacher, which > caused her death and wanted to publish a "In Memoriam" to remind them > of my niece's death, in every Chinese and English newspapers, in a > very "critical" way, but the publishers did not want to accept it, > and he had to tone it down. .... S: I’m sure they need no reminding. As I said, I think that forgiveness and metta and understanding of vipaka are the only ways to heal the wounds for everyone. Wishing others involved will suffer less rather than more will help your brother. ..... > After my niece's death, i was a constant visitor, at the temple > there that the staff writing & receiving the Dana, told me that > someone else had also donated "in memory of" my niece's name and but > when asked the name of the donor, it was written "anonymous"...guess > it must either be from one of her school mates or her teacher. .... S: Perhaps one day you might even consider visiting them and showing your metta and dana, so that they can live more at ease. You could tell them about your interest in Buddhism and take a book perhaps. Of course, I know this is not easy at all, but I think it might be very helpful if you can share your strength and understanding of kamma and vipaka. ... > As i told you that i am still a novice, i am not able to participate > in your discussions yet, as i do not even know what "vipaka " > means...can you please explain this to me? I feel that you members > here are in the advanced stage, whereas i am still in the > kindergarten stage only...lol. .... S: Oh, we’re all in kindergarden here....or kindergarten as you and Nina say:). So vipaka is just the result of kamma. Experiencing sensations through the senses is vipaka. But responding angrily, for example, is kamma – the cause of future vipaka. How others act towards us are only ‘prompts’, never the real cause of our problems. This is what the Buddha taught us in his wisdom. “Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.” Dhp 1 > > Thanks and so sorry for boring you all with this story of my niece. > With Metta > :} > AliceStillInDepressionLand .... S: Not boring at all. I appreciate your courage and sincerity to turn to the Buddha’s teachings in order to find the strength and wisdom to understand the real truths. Depression doesn’t last, no mental state lasts.....let it go. There’s no room for depression when there’s metta and compassion or any wise considering of the Dhamma....:). Metta, Sarah ======= 47295 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? sarahprocter... Dear Avidu, --- amp amp wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I think I havant structured my question properly in my last posting. so > let me re-post the same question again. > > My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect > even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a > kind of dream? .... S: I think that for us now, nibbana and the fruits of enlightenment are just a kind of dream that can't be directly experienced. So why not let go of the dreams and consider more about what can be directly tested and proved? I think that this is the only way that there will be more confidence in the Buddha's teachings, including those aspects which we dream about. What is life at this moment as you see it? .... > willing to be defeated.. .... S: No question of 'defeated' here:). Persevere with your questions and you'll see the benefit. Thank you for giving your name. Please tell us where you live. Were you brought up in a Buddhist country? Metta, Sarah ======= 47296 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Delayed responses are no problem at all. Thank you for all your kind comments and understanding which I appreciate. Yes, every family has to endure all kinds of sufferings. Even if they are not so bad in this life, how about next life? It may be far worse. We never have any idea about what vipaka is in store for us, so we'd better learn to cope with present difficulties with good humour as a kind of training. As you suggest, people turn to all sorts of addictions to cope with depressions rather than facing the truths. You have so much to offer, Alice. >as they say, "If you want to see the RainBows, then you > will have to put up with the rain", or in our Malay proverbs, "Di > mana hujan tidak timpah", literally meaning "Where in this world, > rain has not fallen"...rain meaning sufferings. .... S: Very good. It reminds me of the 'mustard seed' story when the lady was so distressed about a death in the family, but soon found out that every family had experienced similar grief. I'm sure you're familiar with it, otherwise ask for a link. .... > > Guess in this world, all of us have our own sufferings and if i am > not suffering rite now, i would not be into so many Buddhism websites > also, likewise for Lord Buddha. .... S: Good point. As we know, in the deva realms it is extremely hard to develop wisdom because life is so blissful:). .... > Will tell you of another precept, ie, illicit sex, which is practiced > in our Syariah court as well, in another email. > > With Metta > :} > AliceInSympathyLand ... S: Now, isn't SympathyLand better than DepressionLand? Much appreciated, Metta, Sarah ===== 47297 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (RobM, Chris, Connie) --- Philip wrote: > Ph: Your interpretation which follows is interesting and helpful, > and I'd like to discuss it, but I really think A. Sujin was talking > about something a bit different. In the talk, Nina is saying that > Lodewijk is not comfortable with this "there is no Nina" kind of > teaching, that he thinks Dhamma should be presented in a > more....palatable way. (My word.) That people cannot accept that > kind of hard teaching. Then A. Sujin says that we want to go to the > right and we want to go to the left. I really think it's more of > a "have your cake and eat it" kind of thing. We want to live in the > light of conventional truths, and in the light of ultimate truths, > but - she implies- that the ultimate solution is to go toward the > ultimate truths. ... S: I understand this to mean, we want to follow steps or procedures, to concentrate on objects or to do something (go left and right), but the only way the Dhamma will ever be understood is by understanding the ultimate truths at the present moment.....visible object, sound and so on -- no Nina. .... >but it's just really another talk about concepts vs realities. ... S: Yes, that's how I see it. ... > I have heard a fair bit > recently about natural decisive support conditions (pakattu > panissaya) which A. Sujin teaches in a very broad sense as being all > dhammas, everything we've experienced in this life and past lives, > if I understood correctly. Everything. ... S: Yes - all experiences are accumulated by this condition. ... >I haven't yet heard of the > kind of relativity of these conditioning factors that Rob M mentions > in his book - things that have happened recently, with intensity, > with frequency having more conditioning power than other things. > This makes sense to me. A sutta read this morning with clarity > should have more conditioning power, now, I would think, than a > sutta read 3 years ago when sprawling slightly drunk on the beach. ... S: No expectations....I wouldn't like to speculate on this, but would be glad to see any references RobM has. Conditions are so very complex. .... > > Of course, the conditionng power of suttas we have read is just one > factor out of so many that we cannot begin to fathom. The Buddha > worked out conditions in detail - we would be foolish to hope to do > so. ... S: Yes, well said. .... > > A bit of a ramble there, Sarah, as usual. Thanks again for you > support and for the latest disk full of talks, which I received > yesterday. Yum yum. ... S: I always enjoy your rambles. Good listening and look forward to any snippets! (Connie & Chris - likewise. (in the post -- why not share some snippets or a sutta with us??) Metta, Sarah p.s #47189 prox cause of recklessness is lack of respect for someone else. Isn't it true that when we're angry (to give an obvious example), that not only do we not see the danger, but there's no consideration for others at such times? It's truly reckless. Or to put it the other way round, the lack of respect for others conditions such recklessness which doesn't see the danger. ====== 47298 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:24am Subject: Ritualistic Observatory Firm-Holding Knot htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 9 different stocks of unwholesome dhamma (akusala sangaha). They are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There are 4 gantha dhamma. They are 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha 2. byaapaada kaayagantha 3. silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha Silabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha Sila means 'stone' and silabbata or silavata means 'ceremonial observance'. Paraamasati means 'to touch' 'to deal with' 'to hold on' 'to be attached to'. Paraamaasa means 'touching' 'seizing' 'taking hold of'. So siilabbata-paraamaasa means 'seizing ceremonial observance' or 'holding ceremonial observance' 'handling ceremonial observance'. This means that 'ceremonial observances like killing animals and offer them to divine beings or observing the practice that are those of dogs, cows, etc or observing non-sense rituals like standing on one foot for days, not eating food for days as a practice to purify mind. Still there are many observances that are non-sense when these are connected with wrong view. Clasping hands and worshiping to the sky, to the earth, to the sun, to 6 directions or 10 directions, to trees, to rivers, to mountains, to tombs, and many others. If there is wrong view in mind while observing such things like worshiping corpse, remnants or corpse, heap of earthy ground, tomb are all 'siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' or 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knot'. This may also include when one is observing non-sense ritualistic behavioural activities like maintaining of strange postures as a practice in order to purify mind or in order to be liberated. There have been many many practices since human beings are on this earth. Some went through trials and errors and finally they set up a defined practice what they thought was a good thing to do as a spiritual cleansing and then they founded up their individual schools, teaching those things that they believed were all true. From their schools they propagate all their teachings to many different beings wherever they meet in whatever situations. The chief dhamma here is 'ditthi' or 'wrong-view'. As long as 'ditthi' is there and that ditthi is associated with lobha producing ditthi-gata-sampayutta-lobha-muula-cittas or greedy consciousness accompanied by wrong view there cannot be any panna or wisdom. Sometimes this ditthi is very subtle that it may not be detectable by the immatured. Examples are sitting in a quiet place, sitting on folded crossed legs, sitting on erect body, straightening the back, sitting under a tree, or any specific postures. When these are imitated by someone without knowledge of what is right and what is wrong and without knowledge of what is ditthi or wrong view they may well believe that they are following the right practice and they feel ease. But as long as there is ditthi, panna or wisdom cannot arise. Ditthi or wrong view may come to beings in many different forms. One of these forms is 'silabbata-paraamaasa' or 'silavata-paraamaasa' kaayagantha. As it is a gantha dhamma this ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knots or 'silavata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' tie beings and they make knots or they bind beings not to be liberated. These knots are like knotted thread in a net of trap. Once beings are in the trap-net and they are bounded or tied by gantha dhamma or siilabbata-paraamaasa they cannot escape from unhappy destination. These knots or bonds are hard to break up and cut up. But when there is right view and when there arises sotapatti magga naana or 'stream- entering path-knowledge then all these hard to cut up knots of siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha are destroyed and beings in question are liberated from binding of siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha. As soon as they are liberated from the knot of 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding' or siilabbata-paraamaasa they are freed from rebirth in the lower 4 realms or rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47299 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: >The discipline I am talking about is > basically the lower part of the 'gradual training.' That is, > engaging onesself in a spiritual discipline, according to the > doctrine. For example (one among many), DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, we > read about the moralities the practitioner undertakes under the > heading: > > (The Lesser Section on Virtue) .... > We read that one puts down sword and stick, not harming any living > being, being compassionate, one abandons stealing, taking only what > is given, one abandons all types of wrong speech and speaks > meaningful, helpful, kind words. All of this adds up to a discipline > that one can follow in their life. ... S: I think it depends what you mean by ‘lower part of the ‘gradual training’’. Only a sotapanna will follow the precepts without fail having perfected adhi-sila or morality as a result of having developed a lot of wisdom and eradicated any idea of self. .... >It is something I have deviated > some from, due to conditions from within and without, -however-, when > one reads the sutta on advice to laypeople, Sigolavada Sutta, DN20, > how the four quarters are covered in a particular discipline for the > laymen who wants to live a life at peace with his coworkers, friends, > and family, and be 'good,' even resulting in a heavenly rebirth. ... S: We can read, reflect and understand more and more the value of all kinds of wholesome states. But these are anatta. We have no idea what the conditions will be in the future in spite of all our good resolutions. That’s why it has to be the path of detachment, not of expectations or clinging to having good states arising. ... >We > can follow this code of discipline to create peace with our family > and so on, even if we do not want the heavenly rebirth. For example, > as has been suggested, I have read some of the Talmud as a first step > in carrying out the family tradition (Judaism), and this new, > freshness, especially the parts on virtue, really let me see how I > could be disciplined from all angles. It's a way of life. ... S: I’m glad to read this and I know Nina, Howard and others will be too. We can begin to see ‘Dhamma’ everywhere in whatever we read, whatever we talk about or whatever work we’re doing. ... <...> > To help you understand, for example, during the Northeast blackout a > few years back, my father was coming into the hallway and speaking > about the previous blackout some decades ago, and it was just a piece > of idle chatter. I knew that idle chatter just leads to suffering, > so I let it be and did not engage him. ..... S: An opportunity for metta and understanding too, whether one ‘engages’ or not. ... >With the laypersons code of > discipline, I might try to rectify the relationship further by > carrying out the family tradition, helping him out when he neds help, > basically creating a more proper father-son relationship, having him > think of me less as a 'friend,' which he has called me in the past. ... S: I think it’s rather nice that he considers you as a ‘friend’. I appreciate that my mother calls me with any problems like she would a close friend. .... > Serious problems in practising Buddhism began after my honeymoon > ended. If I follow the teachings correctly, as I have in the past, > (will I be able in the future?) problems can fade away. .... S: It always comes down to these expectations or clingings to the practice now – wishing they’d be like they were in the past or wondering how they will be in the future. Al, the practice is understanding and letting go of the attachment to what is currently being experienced now – whether that be a citta, cetasika or rupa appearing. ... >I felt > established in the discipline even as recently as two nights ago, > walking home to my house with a friend, but when I got home I did not > know how what was proper to do on the computer.. ... S: The reason for the dilemma is because you’re think of a story about a scenario or situation, rather than being aware of the dhammas regardless of whether you turn on the computer or not. Even thinking about ‘what is proper’ is just conditioned thinking. .... >the part about > entering jhanas or bringing mindfulness to the fore, would be very > difficult for me as I've not been able to meditate well since a time > in the not so distant past. But the rest was there. I'm telling > you, discipline is good! ... S: No self who can bring anything to the fore. ... > OK. I'm still interesting in knowing cetasikas no matter what my > lifestyle. If I decide seeking a greater happiness is better for me > than trying to have some 'fun' with my friends, I would still like to > know them, and it should make no difference. ... S: There are always cetasikas arising – just as real when you’re having fun with your friends. No need to be afraid of ordinary, daily lobha. It can be understood too – it has to be. Trying to avoid it is not the solution. .... > Well, I guess the first question I should ask is, how are we only > aware of one reality at a time, as they arise, if all realities are > constantly arising and falling? .... S: Excellent Qu. Take visible object. Theoretically I can say that in a sense door process, rupa lasts as long as 17 cittas, so that after seeing consciousness has fallen away, there are a couple of other cittas arising and then 7 javana cittas arise and experience the same object. If they arise with awareness, then visible object is the object of such awareness. In the subsequent mind door process, the characteristic of visible object can also be experienced by javana cittas with awareness. Practically, when there is awareness of visible object, there’s no idea about the speed of cittas or how long a rupa lasts. Simply, awareness performs its function of being aware and falls away. By developing understanding, the characteristic of awareness can be known without needing to think about how many processes are involved. ..... >Is it simply because citta can only > know one object at a time, or is it because we have to wait for some > object of consciousness to become 'prominent?' And if so, how/why > does this occur? ... S: I always like your qus a lot. Yes, citta (and accompanying cetasikas) can only ever experience one object at a time. It depends on many conditions which object will be experienced at any time. No one can control whether visible object, sound or heat will be experienced next. This is the point of the ayatanas or meeting-point of various sense fields – only when all the conditions are in place will there be the experience of a particular object – a very fine balancing act. For example, when we are sleeping, visible objects have no chance to impact on eye-sense, so no experiencing of them can take place. Please ask anything else..... (I’ll be going away in a couple of weeks for a month). Metta, Sarah ======== 47300 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi Al (*those in Oz), --- Andrew Levin wrote: > What about sila, dana, and bhavana, and the ten wholesome actions? > Can't we look to practise these to create more wholesomeness for our > welfare and happiness, at the same time as we try to understand > akusala? ... S: Is there really any 'we' to practise or create anything? Metta, Sarah p.s I'm sorry, it won't be NY this year ...I'd love it to be next....let's see (lots depends on Jon's retirement work plans). I'll try to coordinate with Nina. ========= *All in Oz - our weekend of 13th/14th Aug is confirmed in Qld- KenH & AndrewT are kindly coordinating.....Herman, we'll coord off-list for Syd - Botanic gardens? - if that works better for you (beg. Aug). If anyone wants our dates in Bangkok at the beg and end of the trip, also let me know. 47301 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > I haven't crossed over the steam yet, so I still need to cling to my > raft. Once I have crossed over, I won't need to carry my raft with > me. But for the moment, I am still attached to the Dhamma. > > I understand intellectually that the nature of the raft is that at > some point in my journey, I will abandon it. Nevertheless, part way > across the stream is not the point to abandon the raft. > > In the Suttas, the Buddha made many exhortations to monks and > laypeople (but not to Arahants). I interpret Ajahn Brahm's statement > as being of the same vein. > ++++++++ Dear RobM, You will not get to the end of the path - or anywhere near it- by clinging to Dhamma. Your last sentence about the Buddha exhorting monks and laypeople - are you saying he was exhorting them to have upadana, grasping, to Dhamma? Please show me the passages. How do you recomcile the venerables statements about the great merit of Upadana with what you have studied in Abhidhamma about upadana being a akusala dhamma - namely lobha? The venerable writes: "The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un-Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind."""endquote venerable He glosses silabbataparamasa as rites and rituals. However, rites and rituals include kusala as well as akusala - if we grasp at kusala wrongly we are indulging in silabbataparamsa . And if we think it is good to grasp kusala then that is surely wrong view. Silabataparamsa is actually an aspect of wrong view and cannot exist if anatta, not self, is deeply insighted. The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma [good or bad]... Thus silabataparamasa is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" endquote. Note that the fine material and immataterial -refers to genuine jhana development. Thus silabataparamasa can lead to both good and bad states, it can lead even to the highest pleasant feelings experienced in jhana but it cannot lead out of samsara. All ways of kusala (wholesome) can support the development of insight, but they won't if they are clung to or mistaken as the path. I have met many religious people, Buddhist and non-Buddhist who are trapped in an austere world of clinging to ritual practice. But the way of the Buddha is one of understanding - always with detachment. Robertk 47302 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:54am Subject: Victor news sarahprocter... Dear Friends-of-Victor, We received a note from Victor to say he’s canceling his email account when he shortly ordains. He can be contacted at: Metta Forest Monastery PO Box 1409 Valley Center, CA 92082 He also wrote, V: >Hi Jon and Sarah, Thank you for the message and good wishes. To the group I would say: "Thank you for your posts and discussion. Thank you, Jon and Sarah, for providing this forum." As for the post ordination name, if one's name is John Smith, then he can be addressed as Tan John in daily life after ordination, 'Tan' being a title for monk. Thank you again. Best wishes, Victor ========= --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear Victor > > Thanks for letting us know the reason for your > proposed unsubscription > from DSG. We will be sorry to lose you, but we of > course understand your > reasons. > > We would like to make a short announcement on the > list. Please consider > sending a few words that we can pass on to the other > members. > > Thanks for including your post-ordination address. > Would you also let us > know the name by which you will be known after > ordination. > > We rejoice in your decision to ordain, and wish you > all the fruits of the > life of a samana. > > Jon and Sarah 47303 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Rob, Sarah, and all) - In a message dated 7/5/05 10:22:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Rob M and all, I have been without a computer for several days. It is good to be back and to know all is well at DSG. Rob M wrote to Sarah: ------------- > I thought that Ajahn Brahm did an excellent job of explaining attachment and reconciling this with formal meditation practice. This is a point that I have been trying (unsucessfully) to communicate with Ken H. ------------- It's very nice of you to think of me, Rob. Since you have such a high opinion of Ajahn Brahm's teaching I should be careful with what I say. I wouldn't want to be controversial. :-) ---------------- RobM quoting the article by Ajahn Brahm: > "Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. Thus jokes abound such as the one on why the houses of Buddhists have dirt in the corners – because they don't allow even their vacuum cleaner any attachments. Some misguided pseudo-Buddhists criticise those living a moral life as being attached to their precepts and thus praise immoral action as a sign of deep wisdom. Bah! ----------------------------- Attachment (lobha) is an akusala dhamma, and we shouldn't let AB or anyone tell us otherwise. Lobha should be understood, directly and indirectly, as inherently dangerous and capable of leading us away from the Path. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. It is undesirable and best removed if possible. ---------------------------------------------- The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the weakening of defilements. ---------------------------------------------- When someone sits in formal meditation, his aim is to get rid of attachment and have detachment instead. It is not enough for him to understand attachment and detachment: he wants detachment for himself. This is his form of attachment, and it is not the way taught by the Buddha. -------------------------------------------- Howard: A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a drop, there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at first, the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. -------------------------------------------- Furthermore, I should point out that DSG people who downgrade the efficacy of rite and ritual (or mere rules and precepts) are not disparaging "those living a moral life." They are pointing out the difference between real morality and ritualistic morality. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. But in the extreme case of taking meditation per se, independent of how it is approached, as rite and ritual one, and dismissing it, one is being led by prejudice instead of by the Dhamma. So, care is needed in what are considered to be rites and rituals. --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- AB: > Others in traditional Buddhist circles create fear of deep meditation by incorrectly stating that you will only get attached to the Jhânas. -------------------------------- Does anyone at DSG state that? We are all deeply respectful of samatha-bhavana - it is an extremely high form of kusala. Mundane jhanas are subject to attachment, but that is not the objection I (and perhaps others) have expressed. I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It certainly isn't common, but it is most certainly within sight for many. But you are quite right in saying that it requires more than just a little right effort. Except for those who already have a great propensity for it, due, I suppose, to considerable past cultivation, what is required is significant and very extensive and consistent practice over a long period of time. This is an effort that is typically more than what the average householder can (or will) put forward. But if one is willing, and circumstances allow for it, the needed practice can bear good fruit. ------------------------------------------------ IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: How would you know, Ken? What is it that you can base your humble opinion on? ;-) ------------------------------------------------ There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: How can you possibly know that, Ken? Actually, I believe there are such people. So, there ya go - two opposite beliefs. They're just beliefs, Ken. ----------------------------------------------- Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) -------------------------------------------------------------------- AB: > It all goes too far. Perhaps the pinnacle of mischievous misinformation was said by Rajneesh who claimed "I am so detached, I am not even attached to detachment" and thus conveniently excused all his excesses. --------------------------------------- I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? Guess what? I don't believe that! I believe that we all want detachment. If we did not we would either be fully ignorant or well on our way to achieving detachment. But I suspect that all of us here are more midling sorts. ------------------------------------------- --------------------- AB: > The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. ---------------------- AB seems to have deviated from the texts here. Upadana and lobha are the same paramattha dhamma. Any difference is a matter of degree. --------------------------------------- AB: > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The five mundane khandhas are the five aggregates of upadana. Therefore everything - with the exceptions of Nibbana and the Eightfold Path - is subject to attachment. And attachment is always akusala - never kusala. (It is always "un-Buddhist.") ---------------------- AB: > Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un- Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. --------------------- It is mischievous to equate the Buddha's teaching of dana, sila and bhavana with the conventional appearance of compassion, the ritualistic acceptance of rules and precepts and any form of *trying* to have right mindfulness. More than mischievous, it is a slander against the Buddha the Dhamma and the sangha. --------------------------------------------- Howard: C'mon, Ken. Don't go overboard. He isn't slandering anyone, let alone the Buddha! Some might think it is mischievous to counsel against making right effort. ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------- AB: > Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. ------------------------- That's true, but only in the ultimate sense. Conventional, ritualistic, practice is not a paramattha dhamma: it is only a concept and, therefore, it has no inherent characteristics - either kusala or akusala. -------------------------------------- Howard: Attachment to catch-terms like 'paramattha dhamma', when used as an excuse to avoid proper conventional actions is a particularly unwholesome matter that I think of as a kind of Buddhist antinomianism. ------------------------------------- The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be a serious instance of hopelessness and wrong view that ignores 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. (I don't know what you mean by "at will", but without cetana, there is no Dhamma practice.) -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- AB: > The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind. Nibbana is the letting go once and for all of greed, hatred and delusion, the seeds of rebirth. Parinibbana is the final letting go of body and mind (the Five Khandhas). It is wrong to suggest that any of these stages of letting go are the same as attachment. ---------------------- Let's be perfectly clear: No one on DSG has ever said that alobha is the same as lobha. ----------------------------- AB: > The path is like a ladder. One grasps the rung above and lets go of the rung below to pull oneself up. Soon, the rung just grasped is the rung one is now standing on. Now is the time to let go of that rung as one grasps an even higher rung to raise oneself further. If one never grasped anything, one would remain spiritually stupid. To those without wisdom, letting go may often appear as attachment. For example a bird on the branch of a tree at night So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path for it will lead to Nibbana. ------------------------------ Lobha is an akusala dhamma. It has never been - and it will never be - a factor for enlightenment. ------------- AB: > And don't forget to purchase the attachments for your vacuum cleaner too!" ------------- At last, this article has told us something useful! :-) Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47304 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Sarah and all Thanks for the feedback. > S: I understand this to mean, we want to follow steps or procedures, to > concentrate on objects or to do something (go left and right), but the > only way the Dhamma will ever be understood is by understanding the > ultimate truths at the present moment.....visible object, sound and so on > -- no Nina. Ph: O.K. I see. This ties in with a snippet from a talk that I wanted to jot down while I have it. It's from the older talks, in Sri Lanka or India, from the CD you were kind enough to send me. A man asks I'd never heard before asks "is it possible to have understanding devoid of self?" and Jon answered, and A. Sujin answered, and then Sukin came in and I especially liked what he had to say: "I would say that understanding can happen only devoid of self...and whenever there's self, there cannot be understanding.. (snip) for example, this moment there can be awareness or there cannot...but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a projection....we want to have awareness..it is either at this moment or it is not...and at this moment it is not something I want to understand at this moment...that is already running away from the moment...I want to understand visible object and try to understand visible object...therefore that is not understanding the fallen away visible object." This is what the "crossing the flood" sutta is all about. It doesn't come naturally to people in the modern world to wait for understanding to arise due to conditions...we try to force things. Our intentions are good about this, of course, but it is all about attachment, desire for results, often, as I said the other day, rooted in a subtle form of mortal fear - we are going to die and we must have something to show for this life of ours! (This is just my opinion based on my own experience.) So being patient and not pressing ahead goes against the way of the world... I want to have a nice ramble on that Ajahn B passage Rob M posted, but not tonight. Perhaps on Saturday. > > I have heard a fair bit > > recently about natural decisive support conditions (pakattu > > panissaya) which A. Sujin teaches in a very broad sense as being all > > dhammas, everything we've experienced in this life and past lives, > > if I understood correctly. Everything. > ... > S: Yes - all experiences are accumulated by this condition. Ph: The "decisive" in the natural decisive support condition sounds to me as though it is talking about conditions that stand out in some way, thus the folowing: > ... > >I haven't yet heard of the > > kind of relativity of these conditioning factors that Rob M mentions > > in his book - things that have happened recently, with intensity, > > with frequency having more conditioning power than other things. > > This makes sense to me. A sutta read this morning with clarity > > should have more conditioning power, now, I would think, than a > > sutta read 3 years ago when sprawling slightly drunk on the beach. > ... > S: No expectations....I wouldn't like to speculate on this, but would be > glad to see any references RobM has. Conditions are so very complex. Ph: Yes, and I'm in no hurry whatsoever to try to figure them out. But when I have a chance to meet Rob M, someday on one of his business trips to Japan, I look forward to asking him about this topic. Metta, Phil 47305 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: Victor news buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends-of-Victor, > > We received a note from Victor to say he's canceling his email account > when he shortly ordains. He can be contacted at: > > Metta Forest Monastery > PO Box 1409 > Valley Center, CA 92082 Why would Victor be cancelling his e-mail account just because he is ordaining, but he can still receive physical letters? Monks at my Buddhist temple in Arizona, Wat Promkunaram, are allowed to have e-mail accounts, and I know of monks at BPS who have e-mail accounts. E-mail isn't against the Vinaya. This smacks of a type of cult-like control which makes me uncomfortable- similiar to what I encountered at Wat Pah Nanachat. Tell Victor to be very careful. Metta, James 47306 From: "frank" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 10:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm dhamma_service Hi Ken, Ken wrote: Does anyone at DSG state that? We are all deeply respectful of samatha-bhavana - it is an extremely high form of kusala. Mundane jhanas are subject to attachment, but that is not the objection I (and perhaps others) have expressed. I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Um, I'm almost speechless. Sometimes Buddhists write things that are so astounding I really don't know what to say. By the way, trying to protect that last paragraph by surrounding it with (IMHO) is a cute maneuver, but it won't stop the reader from wondering about YOU, and they might come to one of these conclusions: 1) Only someone who is a master of both vipassana and jhana, with the attainment of the divine eye would be able to survey this world with its maras, devas, humans, and would have the stones to publicly proclaim that no one else is alive at the moment who is a master of jhana and vipassana. Therefore, Ken must be enlightened. 2) If Ken is not enlightened, and is not offering any rational reason to support his astounding view, why is he sharing what amounts to just pure speculation and belief, probably knowing that other list members would read it and be suitably astounded? What is Ken bringing to the table here? What value is being added to the discussion? It's pretty obvious to me that A.Brahm's intention is to get people to wake up to the fact that jhanas are important, they are not as unattainable as we imagine, and worrying about being attached to virtue and jhana is a premature worry and a very lame excuse to not fully practice the Buddha's path. He's not trying to promote a special type of lobha that eludes akusala. That's really not the point. Trying to make it into an argument about that in order to discredit everything else A.brahm is saying is a very very sad thing to do and you miss the central point. Those of you on the list who view jhana as extremely difficult, how do you know? How many years of schooling and training did it take you to become competent to practice your chosen profession? How much time did you actually commit to attain proficiency in jhana? If someone were to go into a 1 year, or even a 3 month solitary retreat, emerged totally defeated and demoralized, I might understand how one could come to the conclusion that jhana is very difficult or impossible. But who here has made that effort? Exactly what personal experience is it that qualifies you to assert that jhana is nearly impossible to attain? If we spend as much time developing jhana as we do engaging in long dialogues on email lists, I would not be surprised if people here made significant progress on samatha bhavana. Let's review the importance of right concentration. Here's how often it comes up in the 37 factors in the 7 sets to attaining enlightenment: 1)4 frames of reference: satipatthana: in mindfulness of body, mindfulness of breathing anapanasati, brought to culmination leads to jhanic absorption, i.e. right concentration. 2) 4 right exertions/right effort: under the category of "develop wholesome qualities", the Buddha usually uses the 7 factors of enlightenment as the thing that is to be developed. And "right concentration is #6 on the 7 factors of enlightenment. 3) 4 bases of power (iddhipada). All four are "developing the base of power endowed with concentration". 4) 5 faculties: #4 - the faculty of concentration , samadhiindrya 5) 5 strengths (bala): #4 - strength of concentration, samadhibala 6) 7 factors of enlightenment: #6, concentration as a factor of awakening (Samadhi-sambojjhanga) 7) noble 8fold path: factor #8, right concentration, sammma Samadhi. See a pattern here? Right concentration is explicitly stated in 5 out of the 7 baskets, and strongly implied in the remaining 2. That conclusively demonstrates the importance of DEVELOPING right concentration. Note the emphasis on the active form of "developing", rather than taking a defeatist attitude that it's 2500 years since the Buddha died and somehow right concentration has become harder to develop today. The Buddha spent something like 7 years practicing extreme austerities almost to the point of death before reaching a conclusion that those practices were not the way to liberation. That's the kind of commitment and earnest desire he had to find a solution to the cycle of samsara. What kind of commitment and earnest practice have WE done to earn the right to say that jhana is nearly unattainable? Can we honestly consider ourselves dedicated followers of the Buddha if we aren't making a genuine effort to develop all 37 factors in the 7 sets to awakening? -fk 47307 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) christine_fo... Hello Frank, all, A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? I know, at work, when I am told to "develop a submission" "develop an outline" - it means I am being told to follow a course of action which will have a predictable outcome. And it does. I am aware that the 'No formal meditation' group view regular times and postures for meditation as indicating self view (a self who can undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment) ... But, I wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'? metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: <<>>> > Let's review the importance of right concentration. Here's how often it > comes up in the 37 factors in the 7 sets to attaining enlightenment: > > 1)4 frames of reference: satipatthana: in mindfulness of body, mindfulness > of breathing anapanasati, brought to culmination leads to jhanic absorption, > i.e. right concentration. > 2) 4 right exertions/right effort: under the category of "develop wholesome > qualities", the Buddha usually uses the 7 factors of enlightenment as the > thing that is to be developed. And "right concentration is #6 on the 7 > factors of enlightenment. > 3) 4 bases of power (iddhipada). All four are "developing the base of power > endowed with concentration". > 4) 5 faculties: #4 - the faculty of concentration , samadhiindrya > 5) 5 strengths (bala): #4 - strength of concentration, samadhibala > 6) 7 factors of enlightenment: #6, concentration as a factor of awakening > (Samadhi-sambojjhanga) > 7) noble 8fold path: factor #8, right concentration, sammma Samadhi. > > See a pattern here? Right concentration is explicitly stated in 5 out of the > 7 baskets, and strongly implied in the remaining 2. That conclusively > demonstrates the importance of DEVELOPING right concentration. Note the > emphasis on the active form of "developing", rather than taking a defeatist > attitude that it's 2500 years since the Buddha died and somehow right > concentration has become harder to develop today. The Buddha spent something > like 7 years practicing extreme austerities almost to the point of death > before reaching a conclusion that those practices were not the way to > liberation. That's the kind of commitment and earnest desire he had to find > a solution to the cycle of samsara. <<>> > -fk 47308 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma foamflowers Greetings Jon (hello DSGers), I've been moving this last two weeks and work has been very heavy. So sorry for not telling everyone what's happening. I don't want to develop a bond with you-all and just leave with out telling everyone. I'm not leaving by-the-way, I've been very busy moving into our new home. Both of us have had to work while moving all our stuff to our new home. Plus no internet access yet it will be another week before I am online at home. My Boss is away and I'm running the office on my own so I actually have to work (hahaha)! Jon I have many, many reference books,some very old and hard to find because they are out of print,in regards to upakaraka dhamma and also what is and is not dhamma or Dhamma. When we unpacked I looked them up! This would be very helpful in regards to my intellectual development. I think exploring this topic with you and others on the DSG board would give me many different views that I would not be able to see on my own. I also would like to keep up the dialoge on what emptiness is or means in the Nikayas and in Mahayana text. I have several scholarly works in regards to this topic that I have been reading of late. Unfortunetly there has been no time to share with the DSG board in relation to personal study and understanding. I should be up and running,that is, being able to post in another 7 work days. I have over 90 e-mails in my account right now and I am leaving Sarahs, Nina's and Teps to last...wow guys and girls where do you find the energy to write so much? (said with loving kindness and a great deal of affection --- not affliction!) Thank you Jon for your input and I will repost, I have it on my task list. With Metta, Lisa In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa > > Many thanks for tracking down these references to 'upakaraka >dhamma'.They both contain useful material. Unfortunately, neither author (Ven Narada, Ledi Sayadaw) gives the source for their reference to the term 'upakaraka', but no doubt an earlier >referencewill turn >up in due course. > > As to what is and what is not a 'dhamma', this is a big topic and >an important one, in fact in a sense you could say it's pretty much >all we talk about here. 47309 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Frank, and all) - In a message dated 7/6/05 4:29:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello Frank, all, A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? I know, at work, when I am told to "develop a submission" "develop an outline" - it means I am being told to follow a course of action which will have a predictable outcome. And it does. I am aware that the 'No formal meditation' group view regular times and postures for meditation as indicating self view (a self who can undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment) ... But, I wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'? metta, Chris ======================== You betcha! ;-)) And this is so, because we all have sense-of-self and self-view, except for those ariyans here who are very adeptly keeping themselves under wraps! ;-)) I personally do not literally think there is "a self who can undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment," but I do think that cultivation is literally doable, prompted by cetana, and I certainly do think, figuratively, in conventional terms, that there people who can do this, and that these people include all of us right here! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47310 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 241 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (o) ksheri3 Whatzup Sarah, I'm busy chipping away on Nina's book as we speak. I find it very interesting how she phrases some things and then just as interesting that it's for the most part, nothing more than a re-phrased Abihammattha-Sangaha, but I've yet to get past the introduction, which I read tonight. One thing that struck me about her was found on: http://www.zolag.co.uk/cetfinal.txt "The mind cannot be purified if we do not thoroughtly investigate it." Now she's talkin'! In my youth, about 6th grade, my parents got me two albums for x-mas, christmas, which were Tubular Bells and Mind Games. That was a very good yr. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > Restlessness > > Uddhacca, translated as restlessness, agitation, excitement or > confusion, is another akusala cetasika which arises with each > akusala citta. The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 250) gives > the following definition of uddhacca: > * > "… It has mental excitement as characteristic like wind-tossed water; > wavering as function, like a flag waving in the wind; whirling as > manifestation like scattered ashes struck by a stone; unsystematic > thought owing to mental excitement as proximate cause; and it should > be regarded as mental distraction over an object of excitement." > * > The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 165) gives a similar definition(1). The > commentaries illustrate with similes that when there is uddhacca, > there is no steadiness, there is not the stable condition, the calm, > of kusala. colette: ah, just like me and my nature to jump in in the middle of a definition. In one site I mentioned reading a pc. from a Master something or other and the moderator replied that if the good master had encountered me he would be rolling in his emptiness. :o LOL The above definintion from Visuddhimagga falls into the same trap every faith, psychology, philosophy, etc. falls into: they arbitrarily dictate what good is and is not, what bad is and what it is not, yet they fail to mention that the conditions they define are conditional on the time and place and environment, and ... These dictates of good and bad are subject to change, CHAOS, and not subject to an absolute static condition. You and your body change every day, every second, ect, you have a thought one minute but you cannot get that same thought back at some other time as of yet unknown, since the conditions that manifested the thought have changed. The calm above stated in your pc. Sarah is in reference to the individual. It is not a calm which exist out there in the logos and/or cosmos as a tourist atraction which the organized criminal group called the family unit, see Las Vegas and the current condition of state governments relying on the revenue generated from organized gambling as the means to satiate their gluttony of avarice. This calm is out there but it is conditional on the fact that the individual and the calm must come into contact with each other, there must be a tangent somewhere. If there is no tangent then you or is it that they would be suggesting that the calm they have was generated outside their organism by an unseen force and bestowed upon them, see creationism, or that they have the assembly line production process that is 100% verifiable and copyrighted that leads to this calm and therefore should be considered as the arbituers of those people that do not have the process, see gang behavior also known as group behavior, mob behavior, etc. the local organized religious establishment knows of this so you may inquire with your religious leaders as to the initiation into a gang or mob or congregation (Southern Baptist Convention), et al. -------------------- When there is uddhacca there is forgetfulness of kusala, > whereas when there is mindfulness, sati, there is watchfulness, > non-forgetfulness of kusala, be it generosity, morality, the > development of calm or insight. colette: this reminds me of the competition faced on the weekend nights around the television where Bruno Samartino, for example, would be in competition for a daytime soap opera job but until then he must settle for wrestling on saturday nights. The function of the mind: it either remembers or it forgets. The ultimate competition wouldn't you agree? As for what is kusala and akusala well then whatever floats your boat baby. ;)) toodles, colette > > Mindfulness is watchful so that the opportunity for kusala is not wasted. > *** > 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §429. > ***** > [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 47311 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] A sutta here, a sutta there... ksheri3 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html "Bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be cultivated by one gone forth from the house-life. What are the two? There is devotion to indulgence of pleasure in the objects of sensual desire, which is inferior, low, vulgar, ignoble, and leads to no good; and there is devotion to self-torment, which is painful, ignoble and leads to no good. " colette: without question this is so TRUE since I've got many an experience to back this up. Basically though I would use my parents existance and their growth from the proletariate to the upper middle- class. The applicable characteristics of their developement would be how their goals changed, their wealth changed, their entire environment changed and they couldn't understand why it was changing on them. Fudge! look at the time. Only a min. or two. gotta log off and get my 2nd hr. later. toodles, colette "The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 47312 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:07pm Subject: An odd sort I am at times huh? ksheri3 Nina, Now I'm into it, it's flowing nicely. The Cetasikas paper you have on the vipisanna site, although I can only obtain 10 pages daily so we can't think that this will be an overnight sensation, see Frank Zappa. <....> What is a defilement? Is it not conditioned response or a cognitive response? This brings me to a problem I had with a professor from the Univ. of Chicago and his papers on Obscurations. Okay, with the eye sense organ we can see and initiate citta and cetasikas respectively. Where can I find parameters that state I can only see as far as my arms length or as far as the cube farm you work in allows you or as far as the bank, usary institution, will let you? I do not subscribe to the position that restricts my sight since it was not the gang, not the employer and manufacturer of cube farms nor the bank, nor anybody, that gave me the opportunity to see thus they have no ability to restrict, put parameters into place, OBSCURE my sight. Let them delusion all they want to delusion, since delusion is a social norm and beneficial to society. We've just started so I hope ya got your seat belt on Nina! We're goin for a ride! ;)) Oh, what fun! toodles, colette 47313 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) lbidd2 Chris: "But, I wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'?" Hi Chris, Long time no see. I agree. As Howard said, whoever hasn't eradicated self view has self view. How that manifests in a forum of views is that we take a view as "who I am". There are other kinds of self view but I think that one is particularly applicable here. your friend, Ima View (Larry) 47314 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M and all, > > I have been without a computer for several days. It is good to be > back and to know all is well at DSG. You clearly spent some time crafting your reply and I also want to do a proper job of preparing my response. I had planned to work on my response on my flight, but at the last minute, my boss called with a major assignment to be done during my airplane time. I did read your message and I want to delay my reply until I get back home on the weekend and have a chance to check some specfic references from the texts. In summary, sorry for my lack of immediate reply. In any case, it appears as though your message has already stirred some discussion, so you will have your hands full for the next few days :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 47315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. nilovg Hi Sarah, This is a helpful explanation of the aayatanas. I like the idea of a very fine balancing act. It also teaches us that the objects of awareness cannot be controlled. Nina. op 06-07-2005 11:04 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > It depends on many conditions which object will be > experienced at any time. No one can control whether visible object, sound > or heat will be experienced next. This is the point of the ayatanas or > meeting-point of various sense fields – only when all the conditions are > in place will there be the experience of a particular object – a very fine > balancing act. 47316 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Phil (and Howard), Can we think of a way to explain to others that this not passive idleness? I appreciate it very much that Howard keeps on asking about this, because this make me consider more about the development of understanding. Sukin's quote made it clear how very careful we have to be lest the idea of self enters and it is likely to do so many times.I like this one: <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a projection..> Nina. op 06-07-2005 16:46 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > It > doesn't come naturally to people in the modern world to wait for > understanding to arise due to conditions...we try to force things. > Our intentions are good about this, of course, but it is all about > attachment, desire for results, often, as I said the other day, > rooted in a subtle form of mortal fear - we are going to die and we > must have something to show for this life of ours! (This is just my > opinion based on my own experience.) So being patient and not > pressing ahead goes against the way of the world... 47317 From: "frank" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:34am Subject: Wat Metta is awesome. RE: [dsg] Re: Victor news dhamma_service I've personally been to Wat Metta several times, met, talked to, listened to dhamma talks by the abbott Thanissaro Bhikkhu, talked to the nagas and monks there, and I can personally attest to the fact that it is not a cult. Wat Metta is a very conducive environment to dhamma practice, and if I ordain someday that's one of the places I'd strongly consider. The monks there are allowed to do yoga, taiji, and after chores and the morning and evening group sit and dhamma talk, there's usually a very good amount of time to devote to walking and sitting meditation, or reading. My impression is that Thanisarro gives the monks plenty of room to decide how to best structure and allocate their free time to cultivation. Quite the opposite of a cult leader. From the writings of thanissaro, and my conversations with him, my impression is he's a no nonsense guy who has priority and focus on the most important aspects of dhamma, and runs the monastery in such a way that monks can also devote the majority of their time to the most important aspects of dhamma practice. Victor is in no danger. If for some reason the environment doesn't strike him as suitable, he can always transfer or disrobe after a training period (3 years?). BTW my friend saw Victor at Wat metta recently, said he looked happy and healthy, had lost some weight since Victor first became a naga. Wat metta probably does restrict monks from email, and it's probably for sensible reasons. For example, it took me 15 minutes just to compose this email. Imagine how long Victor could spend answering his correspondence. I would rather have spent my 15 minutes on something else, but felt it important to defend Wat Metta against unfounded fears and suspicion. -fk p.s. I don't know what Victor's dhamma name after ordination will be, but who would be surprised if it had something to do with the theme of anatta? -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhatrue Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 6:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Victor news Hi Sarah and Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends-of-Victor, > > We received a note from Victor to say he's canceling his email account > when he shortly ordains. He can be contacted at: > > Metta Forest Monastery > PO Box 1409 > Valley Center, CA 92082 Why would Victor be cancelling his e-mail account just because he is ordaining, but he can still receive physical letters? Monks at my Buddhist temple in Arizona, Wat Promkunaram, are allowed to have e-mail accounts, and I know of monks at BPS who have e-mail accounts. E-mail isn't against the Vinaya. This smacks of a type of cult-like control which makes me uncomfortable- similiar to what I encountered at Wat Pah Nanachat. Tell Victor to be very careful. Metta, James 47318 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 9:04pm Subject: Mighty is Morality ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Morality is the Second Mental Perfection: Avoiding all Harm; Doing only Good; Purifying the Mind; This is the Dhamma of all the Buddhas! Dhammapada 183 Morality is the foundation, the initiator & the origin of all that is fine, good & beautiful... One Must therefore purify morality. Theragatha 612 Clean cultivated morality brings all success! Theragatha 608 Morality is a mighty Power! Morality is a forceful Weapon! Morality is a supreme Jewel! Morality is a marvellous Protection! Theragatha 614 Harmless towards all living beings, Speaking only kind & wise truths, Taking nothing not given, Enjoying only one's own partner, Never abusing drinks or drugs. Having given up & left all behind These five harmful actions, such One truly possess mighty right moral... AN III 205-6 What, Venerable Sir, is the rewarding advantage of morality? Freedom from regret, Ananda. And what is the advantage of freedom from regret? Joy that produces bliss, Ananda. Bliss then generates happiness. Happiness enables concentration. Concentration facilitates vision and knowledge. Vision and knowledge brings dispassion & detachment Dispassion & detachment induces direct experience of Certain & Complete Mental Release, Ananda. AN X.1 Intention always comes first. Intention is of all states the primer. By intention are all things initiated. By construction of mind are all phenomena formed. So - if with good intention one thinks, speak or act: Joy surely follows one, like the never-leaving shadow However !!! - if with evil intention one thinks, speak or act: Pain certainly follows one, like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1+2 Both the moral & immoral doings; Both the good & the Bad actions; That human beings do here; These are truly their own possession. These they take along with them when they go, These are what follows them like a shadow, that never ever leaves... So do only what is admirable & advantageous, as an accumulating investment for the future life. Good prior doings are the only support & help for any being, when they rearise in the next world. SN III 4 Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good reaps only joy and satisfaction ... So both here and there, the wise with merit well done & stored, enjoys the purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong reaps only pain and regret ... So both here and there, the fool with wrong view & bad behavior, suffers agony as the inevitable effect of prior evil action. Dhammapada 16 As the yak-ox watch her tail even onto death, without breaking through, when caught in thorns, guard your doings as your own life, by avoiding all overstepping this fine line limiting right from wrong. The Basket of Behaviour, Cariyapitaka The Bodhisatta once as the Naga serpent King Sankhapala guarded his precepts of moral habit, even when tortured: 'Though pierced with sharp bamboo stakes and hacked with hunting knives. I raged no anger against these hunters, as this was my perfection of Morality!' Sankhapala Jataka no. 524 The 5 precious precepts (pañca-sila): I accept the training rule to avoid killing breathing beings. I accept the training rule not to take anything, that is not given. I accept the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. I accept the training rule to desist from incorrect speech. I accept the training rule to shun drinks & drugs causing carelessness. These are timeless laws of only Good, which all the mighty Seers of the past have fully followed & made their Way! The Virtue of Morality is like Rock... A Solid Foundation for all Good States! Immorality creates regret, and thus destroys any Joy... Purity creates calm, and thus the subtle concentration, which is necessary for gaining all higher understanding! Only higher Understanding sets completely Free... PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma <...> 47319 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Wat Metta is awesome. RE: [dsg] Re: Victor news buddhatrue Hi Frank, Thanks for your response, which I guess was directed me though you didn't address me. Not sure what you mean when you refer to `nagas' and that Victor is now a `naga'. From my understanding, nagas are beings that live in a different realm/dimension than humans and can take the form of humans at command. Normally, nagas represent themselves in our world/dimension as serpents. In the Middle East, they are often referred to as jinns and are held with a certain amount of distrust (which is warranted- from my personal experience with jinns/nagas). Anyway, I hope that the foregoing has alerted you to one very important fact of life: Things are not always what they seem. I have special concern for Victor because I consider him a dhamma friend of mine whom I love and value his contributions to the dhamma. I wish him the best and hope that he thrives at Wat Metta. However, I want him to also realize that things are not always what they seem. I'm glad that you had so many positive experiences at Wat Metta. That is what is important: focus on your own growth and forget about the temple/source. Personally, I am not as enamored with Wat Metta, but that is my kamma. Thank you for the chance to dialogue. Good luck to you and to Victor. Metta, James 47320 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:36pm Subject: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) sukinderpal Hi Chris, all, Long time no write :-) You wrote: > I am aware that the 'No formal meditation' group view regular times > and postures for meditation as indicating self view (a self who can > undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment) ... But, I > wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will > undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'? Perhaps the question to ask is, "Why meditation (re: the conventional activity)?" In a day I go about my daily activities never thinking about whether I should be doing or *not doing* formal sitting. There is no reason that I should be thinking anything about formal meditation. Only when I come across views put forward by others promoting it, is there a reaction. Yes indeed if I were to think that I `should not formally meditate', then this would clearly be `self view'. The habit of referring to self and stories when hearing or reading Dhamma, already makes it quite hard each time, for any real appreciation to arise. How much more so when the `self' has a project? In this regard the Abhidhamma is like a great gift for those of us who appreciate it in the right way. For others who seem to have that unreasonable resistance, there is a kind of struggle which I believe leads to losing sight of the goal, i.e. understanding the present moment. So no Chris, it is not about doing or not doing anything, either way that would be relying on conventional situations and activities, not `that' but `this', for the development of understanding. The idea of better time, place and activity is a proliferation of lobha and ditthi. My objection is towards the "view" that it must be certain place and activity or that one must `intend' as Howard professes. Both cases being the fact of not seeing `thinking' as being just conditioned (by self view), and instead being drawn in by the "ideas". Have you noticed how at every turn the `self' tries to justify what ever action is being taken and/or wants to take? I think only with any subsequent arising of sati and panna can there be recognition of any deception. When it comes to dhamma the same process also happens, in this case however, wrong practice and wrong view condition one another and as you know, this is the only real obstacle to taking the correct path. :-/ > A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I > think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the > Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain > qualities, behaviours and mindstates? Any development involves dhammas and not `selves'. No where did the Buddha when instructing his hearers to "develop", was he making a reference to the non-existent "self". Chris, you and millions of Buddhists today are hearing the exact same word [translated], *develop!* What decided that those hearers then became enlightened, whereas even someone so much respected as Acharn B. today, seems to be so off the mark? Certainly it is not `intention' is it, since I believe all that involves this idea of intention is simply `thinking' in a certain way. Some may say, sati, or viriya, or concentration, or saddha, but are these any good without panna? Have quite a few thoughts on Jhana and the question of `self view' being inherent and whether this is an excuse to *do* anything with `self' etc. but this is already too long, so I'll end here. Do write more often. :-) Metta, Sukinder 47321 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 0:30am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 242 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Uddhacca is not the same as what we mean by “restlessness” or “agitation”, used in conventional language. When we use the word restlessness we usually think of aversion and unpleasant feeling. However, uddhacca arises with each akusala citta, not only with citta rooted in aversion, dosa-múla-citta, but also with citta rooted in attachment, lobha-múla-citta, and citta rooted in ignorance, moha-múla-citta. When there is uddhacca we are forgetful as to kusala, we are unable to apply ourselves to any kind of kusala. Even when there is pleasant feeling, for example, when we are attached to a quiet place, there is restlessness, uddhacca, which arises together with lobha-múla-citta. We may think that we are calm at such a moment, but we have actually “mental excitement”. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47322 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita,Tep & all, I also appreciated the passages you selected on metta. --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: Here are the last two you gave: > And how does a bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness > extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on > seeing a dearly favourite person! Even so do he extend loving-kindness > to all beings in all directions, as above so below. > > Abhidhamma Pitaka: > Appamañña-vibhanga > > > Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth > one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; > in shining, glowing and beaming radiance such release of mind by > universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... > > Itivuttaka 27 ... S: In John Ireland's translation (BPS), he gives almost the same here: "Bhikkhus, whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the mind-release of loving-kindness*. The mind-release of loving-kindness surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant." He adds an interesting footnote for [*] which Tep may like to comment on as I think he was discussing ceto-vimutti before with someone: "Mind-release (cetovimutti) is the culmination of the mind's purgation of emotional impurities by the practice of tranquillity (samatha). There are various kinds of mind-release, and although they are very exalted, the only one that is irreversible is the unshakable mind-release (akuppaa ceto vimutti) possessed by an arahant. The practice of loving-kindness, the first of the four divine abidings, culminates in the boundless mind-release (appamaa.naa cetovimutti) in which all ill will or malice (vyaapaada) is removed from the mind." Let me add he verse at the end of the sutta: "For one who mindfully develops Boundless loving-kindness Seeing the destruction of clinging The fetters are worn away. If with an uncorrupted mind He pervades just one being With loving kindly thoughts, He makes some merit through that. But a noble one produces An abundance of merit By having a compassionate mind Towards all living beings. Those royal seers who conquered The earth crowded with beings Went about making offerings: The horse sacrifice, the man sacrifice, The water rites, the soma sacrifice, And that called 'the Unobstructed.' But those do not share Even a sixteenth part Of a mind well cultivated In loving kindly thoughts, Just as the entire starry host Is dimmed by the moon's radiance. One who does not kill Nor cause others to kill, Who does not conquer Nor cause others to conquer, Kindly towards all beings - He has enmity for none." ***** Any further comments? Metta, Sarah ====== 47323 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry & Howard, I'm glad Howard has joined in this thread too. --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > One comment from the commentary you quoted: "the explanation by way of > agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative > manner of speaking." > > L: I understand "a relative manner of speaking" to mean "not really". > See long quotation in next post, "knowing an object". ... S: Yes. 'not really' an agent or person as the term might suggest. However, I think that we should be in no doubt that consciousness experiences its object as the quotes I've given have showed. Thank you for the wonderful passages you quoted from the Vism -- I don't see any conflict. Vism X1V,82 " 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why 'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning." ***** Let me be bold and suggest that when it's suggested that consciousness is 'an event that is the experiential presence of an object', rather than the experiencing of an object, it seems to be giving it a Mahayana or Nagarjuna gloss, rather than a clear understanding of the meaning of namas(i.e cittas and cetasikas) and their functions which are to experience or cognize their objects in various ways. Seeing does experience visible object. Seeing is not a thing or entity, but it certainly is a dhamma or reality which has this function. I therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, which was: "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". ... L: > As for the nature of visible object, you could well be right that it is > one consciousness of multiple colors and brightnesses (aka "light"). ... S: Even this sounds like a story about it -- that's why in the end we can only say it's 'that which is seen', just like it's always been. ... >I > don't have a clear experiential sense of it. Could you give an example > of visible object (paramattha dhamma) as object of desire? ... S: LIke now -- desire is there as soon as there is seeing, whichever way we look, countless times just as we speak, I think. .... > Regarding the question of where in the Satipatthana Sutta is there an > indication of cognizing own-nature (sabhava) you answered that > own-nature is the distinguishing characteristic of a reality. I think we > have to say a little more than that. Eye-consciousness 'knows' (in the > Biblical sense) the distinguishing characteristic of visible object > which is color or light. But only wisdom (paññaa) 'knows' the > own-nature of visible object. ... S: I would say that eye-cosnciousness experiences or 'knows' visible object exactlyas it is (with its particular nature or characteristic when it's experienced), but only wisdom knows or understands it. Throughout the day, eye-consciousness peforms its experiencing function perfectly, but there's no understanding anything about either the experiencing or the v.o. which is seen. .... >I would propose that own-nature is the > elemental nature. In other words, the parts of an apparent whole. In the > suttas this is discussed as khandhas, and the commentaries refined this > with the doctrine of momentariness, i.e., one consciousness at a time. I > think "body in the body" is a precursor to that. ... S: Let's be clear that with or without any understanding, only the khandhas 'exist', arise and fall away, lasting for the briefest 'moment'. Whatever we read, whether it is about 'body' or 'breath' or anything else, there are only these khandhas. ..... > What this means is that all consciousnesses except one rooted in wisdom > 'know' only 'wholes', while a wisdom consciousness is the experience of > that apparent whole as a congeries of elements. .... S: Eye consciousness never sees a 'whole'. It sees visible object, a rupa. Hearing never hears a 'whole', it hears sound, another rupa. However, with ignorance, we think we see people and places (or a TV workman in front of me now talking on his mobile loudly as I type:/). So wisdom only knows what is being experienced anyway, but usually not known. This is why sati and panna are said to 'follow' (anussati), I believe. They follow and know what is being experienced anyway -- they don't create new ways of experience or find new objects not cognized by cittas. This is why there is no special object to be attended to or no special thing to be done in the development of satipatthana. .... >For this reason, I would > say what desire desires is always an apparent whole, which in abhidhamma > is classified as a concept. ... S: I would say, just what is normally experienced -- visible objects, sounds and concepts about them. Desire can and does slip in anytime. I hope this clarifies, I think they are really good points to discuss. Pls continue if you have further comments/disagreements. Howard, too. I think I've finished and so has the TV workman on his mobile, thankfully. Metta, Sarah ========= 47324 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Evan, ---------------- E: > Wow!!! What a strong statement. I would not want to be one who is the originator of that statement. I think it shows great attachment to views. ----------------- Thanks for your reply. I am glad (if glad is the right word) that my statement received such a strong response. At the time of writing, it didn't seem quite so controversial. But then, I have been in DSG longer than you. I have seen a lot of controversy. :-) ------------------ E: > You seem to be saying that there are 2 types of jhana. Those taught and practiced many thousands of years ago and those taught and practiced today. Jhana is jhana as far as I can understand and thousands of years doesn't change the nature of jhana. ------------------ No, I don't think there are two types of jhanas: I agree with you that they remain the same as when they were first taught long before the Buddha. --------------------------- E: > Back in the time of the Buddha, as today, there are reports of lay people who can attain jhana. --------------------------- The reports of attainments in the Buddha's day can be relied upon because they are found in the Pali Canon. The modern-day reports are a different matter. I won't go into that now unless you would like to discuss it further. -------------------------------- E: > Some easily, some not so easily. I don't see what is so different today. --------------------------------- "Easily" is not the right word. I think the Buddha always referred to jhana as "difficult to attain." He certainly referred to vipassana that way - even though some disciples attained after just one sermon. I think you will find that the wisdom needed for jhana and vipassana is accumulated over a long time. It is found only in beings who have lived the 'good life' many, many times over a very long period - perhaps aeons. In the Buddha's day, there were thousands of people ripe for enlightenment. They had just a little "dust in their eyes" and they needed only a few words of Dhamma to show them the way. Some of those people attained in the Buddha's lifetime, while others had to live the good life another one or two (or more) times. I think by 2005 they have all gone to parinibbana (or almost all). But that is just another of my humble opinions. (Where were you and I when the Buddha was alive? Why are we still uninstructed worldlings?) Leaving aside my humble opinions, we could look at the Pali Canon and commentaries: they predict the slow demise of the sasana. In message 24386, Robert K gives some pertinent quotes. I have attached a part of it at the bottom of this post. In the first thousand years after the Buddha's parinibbana, there were arahants who were "released both ways." That meant they had developed vipassana and jhana in tandem. Those arahants had the same extraordinary powers exhibited by some of the Buddha's chief disciples. After the first one thousand years, attainment was by means of vipassana only. That doesn't mean that no one practised jhana anymore - it just means they couldn't use it as a vehicle for vipassana - and I assume jhana was still quite common for a while. But it seems to me that it must have been on the way out. If someone already had the accumulated panna for jhana meditation, then it stands to reason they would continue to develop it, but why would anyone start from scratch? Why wouldn't they be more interested in vipassana? I repeat; there is a lot of my own humble opinion in this, and I won't speculate any further - unless, of course, you want to continue. Ken H Anagatavamsa commentary:"""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances. 'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nirvana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. RobK: > The `analytical insights' is a translation of patisambhida and means the special wisdom of the greatest type of arahants. After these type become extinct there are still sukkhavipassaka arahants, who have no special powers. 47325 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:54am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Jon, > >If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. > > > >"one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote > >quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. To apply quantity > >to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. > > > > Yes, "one" is a number, and numbers are concepts. But then, all > language is concepts (can you make a meaningful sentence without using > concepts?). > > Language that is used to describe what is real is still conceptual. But > I do not see how this means a 'confusion of levels'. Unless of course > you take the view that reality should never be discussed ;-)) > == I agree with the points you make. And there's nothing wrong with a natter about stuff. But even conventional speech has requirements which if unmet render a statement meaningless or confused. For example, the statement "A day has seven weeks" can be conventionally understood as being confused about some categories. The original statement to which I responded was along the lines of "there is only one citta at any time". I took citta to be a conventional reference to what is taken in Theravadin orthodoxy to be an irreducible, an absolute. That an irreducible is seen to occur in time and that it has quantity would suggest that it is not irreducible at all. That is why I suggested there was a confusion of levels. (I am working on the assumption that awareness of time and counting occur very much higher up the cognitive tree than basic sensing) Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47326 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Colette, > Oh, I see, when you say "now where were we" I take it that I'm the > platinum blonde on the casting couch and you're the Niles or Frazier > type that resembles the meglamania which possesses the middle-class > and the ABSOLUTE NEEDS of the mechanics, greese monkeys, called > psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay I'll bite, nibble at this bait > only to tempt your senses all the more with the meal that you believe yourself will be reeling in for the pleasure of the group you are a part of, see the proper definition of an orgy by/for Caligula. It could be a Bacchanalian orgy since I've been known to get lossed in > that x-tian orgy called Carnivale or Mardi Gras. ;)) A very nice paragraph indeed, rich in all sorts of wonderful allusions and metaphors. Unfortunately, when I wrote "now where were we" I was only referring to the fact that I had already partially replied to you. Sorry, not meaning to rain on your parade :-) > colette: I have just been sitting here reading The Stream of > Consciousness by William James: > > "How comes it about that a man reading something aloud for the first > time is ables immediately to emphasize all his words aright, unless > from the very first he have a sense of at least the form of the > sentence yet to come, whichsense is fused with his consciousness of > the present word, and modifies its emphasis in his mind so as to make > him give it the proper accent as he utters it?" > > Here I'm representing that the quantity of experience has made the > impression on the mind where the experience of the sense has been > categorized and is ready to be accessed as a person accesses their > computer files. > > Statement Vanquished, Points Colette, Advantage Colette. ;)) > ---------------- I'm happy to concede the point, the match, the trophy even :-). But.... before one can read one has to learn to read. And before one can count one has to learn to count. In the context of evolution, it may take millions of years for sentient beings to develop the art of counting. And in societies of sentient beings that have developed counting, it still takes years for a newborn to learn that black art. The point of all the above is that it is millions of years of evolution and years of learning within a cultural context that are speaking when it is said that at the most fundamental level there is only one experience at a time. And it is also millions of years of evolution and years of learning within another cultural context speaking when it is said that the first statement is quite confused. There is experience way before there is counting. Having learnt to count it is easy to believe that's what's actually happening. Having learnt to count it is pretty damn hard to stop counting. But when you manage it, there's not a quantity in sight, not anywhere :-) Toodles Herman 47327 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 0:05am Subject: Point of Breath Focus ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Tep Sastri & friends who asked: A: >Did you mean these 32 objects or something else? I meant the focus-point of air-touch in the nostrils. B: >Please more on the: > 1: The sign of Calm: Samatha-Nimitta >2: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta These are somewhat individual, but I can relate my own: _The sign of Calm (__Samatha-Nimitta):_ I experience as almost solidly touchable tranquility, where all distractions have been significantly reduced and appears to be remote and alien. Very soft and extremely pleasant. Yet still not completely stable and somewhat fragile. Maintenance is required. _The sign of Concentration (in anapanasati meditation): _ I experience it as as a tactile extreme intensification of the quality and sensation of the touch in the nose. All even 'atomic' and 'millisecond' variations in the breath is effortlessly sensed & experienced. Focus of attention is unified on a single object only, and steadily so. Mind works like a train on rails moving fast and invariably towards the target. Elated & extraordinarily effective. What one wants to think, that one thinks. What one wants to know, that this hyper-effective mind instantly examines and successfully finds out in almost no time... A 'doubt-eradicator' beyond measures! Important: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta during anapanasati meditation is NOT VISUAL... Do not look out for anything! Visual signs of concentration is developed in Kasina meditation, but NOT during breathing meditation. Be increasingly attentive to the INTENSITY, QUALITY & CONTINUITY of the ever moving & changing sensation of air-touch in the nostrils... Then - one day - not when you want & urge it - you will enjoy a unique experience of the unified mind... Good Luck. Keep on Keeping on. Never give up. : - ] 47328 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Phil > Hi Phil (and Howard), > Can we think of a way to explain to others that this not passive idleness? Ph: I think if people have a prejudice against Abhidhamma for whatever reason (Howard is not such a person, from what I gather, though he doubts that Abhidhamma was spelled out by the Buddha Himself - I must say I join him in that doubt, but don't consider it a problem if it was indeed early Arahants who developed Abhidhamma in the light of wisdom they gained through the Buddha) we can encourage them to read and reflect on the salayatanasamyutta, the khandasamyutta, the dhatusamyutta and nidanasamyutta and other books in samyutta nikaya. Reading and reflecting on all these suttas through which the Buddha teaches the elemental, momentary, anatta nature of reality should, one would think, soon enough liberate people from notions of control. Honestly, I don't know how one can read the anatta sutta and still believe in control. If people can come to Abhidhamma through your books the way I did, that's even better, because we can most certainly understand suttas in the light of Abhidhamma better than we can without. But as I said above, samyutta nikaya seems enough to make it very clear that the notion of being able to control the rise and fall of cittas is incorrect. As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in daily life. Howard has referred to hopelessness and negativity or something like that, but we know of our confidence in kusala. There is nothing hopeless about beginning to uproot defilements. As Jon says in one talk, and I paraphrase, even a single moment of shallow awareness of a present reality is of such import that it frees us from aspiring to greater things. But how can that be communicated? What I've written above are just words. Them that know know. I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant but I think it's true. I > appreciate it very much that Howard keeps on asking about this, because this > make me consider more about the development of understanding. Ph: Me too. I appreciate it when Howard says "we start where we are, not where we want to be." I've been thinking about that a lot. > Sukin's quote made it clear how very careful we have to be lest the idea of > self enters and it is likely to do so many times.I like this one: > <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it > is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the > future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a > projection..> Ph: I was just going to praise Sukin because I've been hearing so many insightful things from him in the talks, but the point is right understanding, not Sukin, of course. So what do we do? Stop worrying about how to convince other people. I was going to write a response to those comments by Ajahn B but I think I will just let it go and return to consideration of present realities instead of getting caught up in a debate. Especially since I'm so busy these days. But I may change my mind about that within the hour. There is no telling. Metta, Phil 47329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q.what is defilement. nilovg Hi Colette, yes, I am all for 'one by one'. Larry and I do this with our lifelong study of the Visuddhimagga! At first it may seem dry, but gradually you can see that it is beneficial for your daily life. Take ignorance. We learn that it is different from the way we see it in conventional language. There is ignorance for example of seeing now. We may have no idea what seeing is, we confuse experiencing what appears through eyesense with thinking about it. We attach to what is seen, but we do not even notice this. Why? Because ignorance darkens the true nature of realities. That is ignorance. With our Visuddhimagga studies next will be about dosa which has many shades and degrees: hatred, malice, violence, aversion, fear, gloominess. If you feel like it you can jump right into it. This can be the beginning of our scenic tour of the Abhidhamma! ***** I add your other questions of your last post: ------- C:What is a defilement? Is it not conditioned response or a cognitive response? _____ N: Responses may be wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala. Defilement or what is akusala is that which leads to your own harm, or other people's harm or both. This is said in the suttas. But people may not understand akusala from one definition. as you quoted. Akusala is an unhealthy state of mind, and it can bring unhappy results. Sometimes it helps to consider first the opposite: kusala. Such as generosity, siila, mental development. When you are generous, the citta is gentle and you do not think of your own gain. You have confidence in kusala, in the Buddha's teachings. Whereas when you have aversion or fear, the citta is savage, there is no wieldiness, it is rigid. The citta is wihtout confidence in kusala, it is akusala. But you have to consider and verify this in your life. Whatever you experience through the senses, pleasant or unpleasant is conditioned by kamma. How are our responses to it? How is the citta? That is more important than thinking of people or situations which brought about unhappy experiences. When we react in the negative way, we accumulate more of the same. When we blame others, the citta is rooted in aversion, dosa. This harms ourselves and it can harm others when it motivates harsh speech or worse, violent actions. Nina. op 05-07-2005 16:28 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > colette: yes, things have to be rationalized, realized, and acquired, > one at a time. Very methodical I may add. 47330 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 6:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 170. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 170. Cittas rooted in aversion. Intro. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals with dosa, aversion, and the other cetasikas that accompany akusala citta rooted in dosa. They are two types of citta: 1)accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, unprompted domanassa-sahagata.m, pa.tigha-sampayuttam, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m. 2) accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, prompted domanassa-sahagata.m, pa.tigha-sampayuttam, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m. Fifteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations always accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in aversion. These fifteen cetasikas include: five Œuniversals¹ (cetasikas which accompany every citta), namely, contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, which accompany every citta are not reckoned here since they are not the khandha of formations. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. Rapture, piiti, does not accompany dosa-muulacitta since this citta always arises with unpleasant feeling. Rapture only accompanies, in the case of cittas of the sense sphere, cittas that arise with pleasant feeling. Thus, five particulars accompany akusala citta rooted in aversion. In this case, the universals and particulars perform their functions in the unwholesome way. They are all affected by dosa, aversion. For example, contact contacts the object of aversion, attention is wrong attention to the object of aversion, concentration focusses on the object of aversion, energy is energy for akusala. Volition is akusala and it can motivate unwholesome deeds, such as harsh speech and even acts of violence. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta and thus, they also accompany dosa-muulacitta. They are: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) When dosa-muulacitta arises, there is also ignorance that does not know its true nature, there are no shame and fear of the consequences of dosa and there is agitation, no steadiness or calm. Furthermore, dosa-muulacitta is accompanied by dosa. Moha, ignorance, and dosa are the roots of this citta. Thus, in this context, fifteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations are mentioned. These always accompany dosa-muulacitta, they are constant or fixed (niyata). The Visuddhimagga classifies some of the universals and particulars as ³or what-ever² (ye-vaa-pana-ka) or supplementary cetasikas. It follows the enumeration of the Dhammasa"nga.nii which does not mention all cetasikas concerned but gives the abreviation of ³or what-ever². In the case of dosa-muulacitta there are four supplementary factors: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara) and agitation (uddhacca). ***** Text Vis.: 170. (30)-(31) As regards the two [kinds of unprofitable consciousness] rooted in hate, there are, firstly, eighteen associated with the first (30), that is, eleven constant given in the texts as such, four or-whatever-states, and three inconstant. Herein the eleven given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), (xlv) hate, delusion (xl). The four or-whatever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), agitation (xlii), attention (xxx) The three inconstant are these: (xlvi) envy, (xlvii) avarice, (xlviii) worry. ****** N: As to the three inconstants, these may or may not arise with dosa-muulacitta. If they accompany dosa-muulacitta citta they do so one at a time. As we shall see, sloth and torpor may or may not arise with the second dosa-muulacitta that is prompted. ***** Conclusion: when we study the enumeration of thecetasikas that accompany citta we should remember that cetasikas are realities, dhammas, that arise because of the apppropriate conditions. We are inclined to take the citta with aversion for self, but aversion does not belong to anyone, when the right conditions are present it arises. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of a moment of aversion. All the cetasikas of the above-mentioned list assist the akusala citta rooted in dosa and they perform each their own function. When dosa appears we can learn its characteristic and we can come to understand that it is only a dhamma devoid of self. It is a reality that arises because it has been accumulated. The latent tendency of aversion conditions its arising time and again. ******* Nina. 47331 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 7/7/05 12:02:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Phil (and Howard), Can we think of a way to explain to others that this not passive idleness? I appreciate it very much that Howard keeps on asking about this, because this make me consider more about the development of understanding. --------------------------------------- Howard: Whether "this" (i.e., waiting for conditions for understanding to arise) is passive idleness or not depends on what one does while "waiting". Results come about not by any old conditions but due to specific conditions, and for sentient beings, among the conditions that lead to results are volitions and volitional actions. Wish making may be among the counterproductive conditions, but we can hardly avoid that entirely. Moreover, wish making may also provide an energy spur to fruitful intentions and conditions, provided that the Buddha's teachings are understood and followed. The actions urged by the Buddha may often appear to be a sort of passive idleness, because they are subtle. Everything about the Dhamma is subtle. Dhammic goals include being fully awake and aware of things as they actually are and being without craving, aversion, and grasping, and central elements of corresponding practice are clear attentiveness, calming, and relinquishment, and these practice elements are subtle and unobvious. ----------------------------------- Sukin's quote made it clear how very careful we have to be lest the idea of self enters and it is likely to do so many times. ------------------------------------- Howard: It is very important to be aware of sense of self and idea of self entering in. It is also important to not let our becoming aware of the presence of this ego-illusion dissuade us from continuing our practice, for if it does, then Mara has had his way with us. -------------------------------------- I like this one: <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a projection..> ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. This is day-dreaming wishfulness. It needs to be seen and let go of. And we can do that, provided we cultivate our watchfulness. ---------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47332 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/7/05 5:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Let me be bold and suggest that when it's suggested that consciousness is 'an event that is the experiential presence of an object', rather than the experiencing of an object, it seems to be giving it a Mahayana or Nagarjuna gloss, rather than a clear understanding of the meaning of namas(i.e cittas and cetasikas) and their functions which are to experience or cognize their objects in various ways. ---------------------------------- Howard: No, I wasn't adopting a Mahayana slant. Actually, I would be perfectly happy saying that consciousness is "the experiencing of an object," but unhappy saying that consaciousness is "THAT [emphasis mine] which is conscious" or "that which experiences an object." Consciousness is an occurrence, it is an experiencing [we can debate duality vs nonduality another time], but it is NOT a knowing agent. That is my point: to avoid a self-oriented locution. --------------------------------------- Seeing does experience visible object. Seeing is not a thing or entity, but it certainly is a dhamma or reality which has this function. ---------------------------------- Howard: Seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But it is not something that experiences. The difference is important. Language is important, because it affects how we think about things. -------------------------------- I therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, which was: "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". ------------------------------------- Howard: I hope I've adequately explained why I do see a problem with it. It would be great, I think, if you would understand my perspective. Agreement is optio nal! ;-) ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Phil and Howard, op 07-07-2005 14:31 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > daily life. Howard has referred to hopelessness and negativity or > something like that, but we know of our confidence in kusala. There > is nothing hopeless about beginning to uproot defilements. As Jon > says in one talk, and I paraphrase, even a single moment of shallow > awareness of a present reality is of such import that it frees us > from aspiring to greater things. ----------- N: There is no helplessness and hopelessness if we see that even one moment of right understanding accumulates. It falls away, but it is never lost, it is accumulated and carried on from citta to citta. We should not underestimate this, and, we can check it in our life. When we listen to tapes in the morning, or, when we read exhortations in the suttas it can condition more understanding of dhammas, also during our daily work. ------ Ph: So what do we do? Stop worrying about how to convince other > people. N: No need to convince others. But it is good if we think of more ways to clarify matters concerning vipassana, from different angles. Nina. 47334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg]cognizes, but no article in Pali. nilovg Hi Howard, we have to go to the Pali text. No article is used here, no , only the declination of the verb. Perhaps you are happier with the Tiika: Tiika Vis. 82, English: with reference to its nature, in order to explain that it occurs merely because of conditions, thus, that it is a dhamma with its own nature. Apart from a dhamma with its own nature, there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action. N: As we read in the Vis.: In Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb cognizing in the third person singular. > op 07-07-2005 16:40 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But it is not something > that experiences. The difference is important. Language is important, because > it > affects how we think about things. > -------------------------------- > I > therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, > which was: > > "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it > knows (vijaanati) an object". > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I hope I've adequately explained why I do see a problem with it. It would > be great, I think, if you would understand my perspective. Agreement is optio > nal! ;-) 47335 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet HI Nina, Howard and all >> As Jon > > says in one talk, and I paraphrase, even a single moment of shallow > > awareness of a present reality is of such import that it frees us > > from aspiring to greater things. Ph: I thought afterwards - again - that I should be more careful about paraphrasing people. But there was an appreciation of the importance of moments of mindfulness. I like what I said once - "I can't see something and be someone at the same time." We are liberated only at the intellectual level by this sort of thing, but it is an intellectual understanding that pervades daily life in a very real way and plants the seed of the deeper understanding. > ----------- > N: There is no helplessness and hopelessness if we see that even one moment > of right understanding accumulates. It falls away, but it is never lost, it > is accumulated and carried on from citta to citta. We should not > underestimate this, and, we can check it in our life. > When we listen to tapes in the morning, or, when we read exhortations in the > suttas it can condition more understanding of dhammas, also during our daily > work. Ph: But no expactations, of course. We don't have the "if I read this sutta, it will lead to understanding here and now" kind of thinking. The conditionality is much looser, and there are so many other conditions at work. That very good and helpful experience I had from A Sujin's talk that helped me cope with my mother's illness could be taken the wrong way - I could start listening to the talks in a way that is trying too hard to suck the meaning out of them. Fortunately I'm aware of that danger and just let them roll by again and again. Occasionally the mind latches on to something and I jot it down in a notebook I carry with me. It would be better not to do that, but I've been doing that sort of thing for years. It comes natural to me due to conditions at work. > ------ > Ph: So what do we do? Stop worrying about how to convince other > > people. > N: No need to convince others. But it is good if we think of more ways to > clarify matters concerning vipassana, from different angles. Ph: Nina, you have done so much to help communicate Dhamma to the English speaking world. On and on and on, you press ahead, sharing your understanding of Dhamma, listening to others. Very impressive. Tres paramis.... Yes, I got over the silly beginner's view that it would be better to only hear from people who have the same ideas. Of course we learn from hearing other's views, discussing. And the irritation it causes me so often is material for understanding... Metta, Phil 47336 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg]cognizes, but no article in Pali. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/7/05 11:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, we have to go to the Pali text. No article is used here, no , only the declination of the verb. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ahhhh! :-) ---------------------------------------- Perhaps you are happier with the Tiika: Tiika Vis. 82, English: with reference to its nature, in order to explain that it occurs merely because of conditions, thus, that it is a dhamma with its own nature. Apart from a dhamma with its own nature, there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a bit better. --------------------------------------- N: As we read in the Vis.: In Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb cognizing in the third person singular. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for this, Nina. That's really important, as I see it. I'm very pleased!! ---------------------------------------- op 07-07-2005 16:40 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But it is not something > that experiences. The difference is important. Language is important, because > it > affects how we think about things. > -------------------------------- > I > therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, > which was: > > "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it > knows (vijaanati) an object". > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I hope I've adequately explained why I do see a problem with it. It would > be great, I think, if you would understand my perspective. Agreement is optio > nal! ;-) ======================= With metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47337 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 4:19am Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your letter. It is much appreciated. I have some long-standing perplexity about the canon, which some points of your letter brought back to the fore. I'll cut to those sections. > > That experience was composed of elements was certainly a current > > belief in those days, and the teaching of the Buddha in relation to > > that was not to expand that and get into ever finer and finer > detail > > about that, but that all condition phenomena have three basic > > characteristics, and how to get beyond that. > > I disagree. I can only guess that you haven't read Samyutta > Nikaya. It is chock full of elements. There is one book devoted to > khandas, another to sense bases, another to dependent origination, > another to feelings, and many more. I have only begun to play around > at the surface, but I can assure you that in order to get at > understanding the three chracteristics there must be understanding > of realities approached from many different angles, with varying > degree of details. For example, in SN 22:57, the Buddha said that we > should be "triple investigators": "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu a > triple investigator? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu investigates by way > of the elements, by way of the sense basess, and by way of dependent > origination." And note that this is in the samyutta devoted to the > khandas. The following is an excerpt from the article on papanca from Nyanatiloka's dictionary (Sanskrit prapañca): In doctrinal usage, it signifies the expansion, differentiation, 'diffuseness' or 'manifoldness' of the world; and it may also refer to the 'phenomenal world' in general, and to the mental attitude of 'worldliness'. In A. IV, 173, it is said: "As far as the field of sixfold sense-impression extends, so far reaches the world of diffuseness (or the phenomenal world; papañcassa gati); as far as the world of diffuseness extends, so far extends the field of sixfold sense-impression. Through the complete fading away and cessation of the field of sixfold sense-impression, there comes about the cessation and the coming-to-rest of the world of diffuseness (papañca-nirodho papañca-vupasamo)." The opposite term nippapañca is a name for Nibbána (S. LIII), in the sense of 'freedom from samsaric diffuseness'. - Dhp. 254: "Mankind delights in the diffuseness of the world, the Perfect Ones are free from such diffuseness" (papañcábhiratá pajá, nippapañca tathágatá). - The 8th of the 'thoughts of a great man' (mahá-purisa-vitakka; A. VIII, 30) has: "This Dhamma is for one who delights in non-diffuseness (the unworldly, Nibbána); it is not for him who delights in worldliness (papañca)." - For the psychological sense of 'differentiation', see M. 18 (Madhupindika Sutta): "Whatever man conceives (vitakketi) that he differentiates (papañceti); and what he differentiates, by reason thereof ideas and considerations of differentiation (papañca-saññá-sankhá) arise in him." On this text and the term papañca, see Dr. Kurt Schmidt in German Buddhist Writers (WHEEL 74/75) p. 61ff. - See D. 21 (Sakka's Quest; WHEEL 10, p. Compare that to the 37 things that lead to enlightenment, or the great lists of namas and rupas that some suggest are essential to seek out and know, and there you have my perplexion. Are there two Buddhisms, one for those who do not even seek to discriminate between seeing and hearing, and one for those who are inclined to know every phenomenon according to any number of criteria? It is clear from the section I quoted above that nibbana and papanca are opposites. It is not clear to me how analytical or synthesising acts of the mind, as required by that current of Buddhism that promulgates the need to know things at that elemental level which supposedly is the real reality, are not a variety of papanca. To me, it seems that when there is no analysis or no synthesis, there are not elements, there is .......... Over to you, Phil :-) Kind Regards Herman 47338 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: Point of Breath Focus ... buddhistmedi... Hi, Ven. Samahita {Attn.: Howard, Nina, Larry, Sarah, Tom and others }- Thank you for posting here your answers to my original (longer) questions at the other group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/ . The original dialogue on the anapanasati meditation was : >Samahita: How is it done? By adverting mind to another object. T: There are 32 objects (vatthu) comprising the anapanasati bhavana as follows: (1) Breathing in long, he knows 'I breathe in long'; (2) or breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'. ... ... ... (31) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment'; (32) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment'. Did you mean these 32 objects or something else? (question 1) > Samahita: When momentary concentration is touched: Note & >characterize the qualities of: >1: The sign of Calm: Samatha-Nimitta >2: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta >The proximate cause of absorption is the skill in directing mind to >this sign of concentration, which then triggers entry into onepointedness. Tep: Please explain the sign of calm and the sign of concentration, resulting in onepointedness, for the 32 objects as shown above (in Question 1)? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear Tep Sastri & friends who asked: > > A: >Did you mean these 32 objects or something else? > I meant the focus-point of air-touch in the nostrils. > > B: >Please more on the: > > 1: The sign of Calm: Samatha-Nimitta > >2: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta > > These are somewhat individual, but I can relate my own: > > _The sign of Calm (__Samatha-Nimitta):_ > I experience as almost solidly touchable tranquility, where all > distractions have been significantly reduced and appears to be > remote and alien. Very soft and extremely pleasant. Yet still not > completely stable and somewhat fragile. Maintenance is required. > > _The sign of Concentration (in anapanasati meditation): _ > I experience it as as a tactile extreme intensification of the > quality and sensation of the touch in the nose. All even 'atomic' > and 'millisecond' variations in the breath is effortlessly sensed & > experienced. Focus of attention is unified on a single object only, > and steadily so. Mind works like a train on rails moving fast and > invariably towards the target. Elated & extraordinarily effective. > What one wants to think, that one thinks. What one wants to know, > that this hyper-effective mind instantly examines and successfully > finds out in almost no time... A 'doubt-eradicator' beyond measures! > > Important: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta during > anapanasati meditation is NOT VISUAL... Do not look out for anything! > Visual signs of concentration is developed in Kasina meditation, but > NOT during breathing meditation. Be increasingly attentive to the > INTENSITY, QUALITY & CONTINUITY of the ever moving & changing sensation of air-touch in the nostrils... Then - one day - not when you want & urge it - you will enjoy a unique experience of the unified mind... > > Good Luck. > Keep on Keeping on. > Never give up. > > : - ] 47339 From: "frank" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:01am Subject: RE: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) dhamma_service Hi Chris, C: A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? Fk: If we take to heart that the Buddha's teaching was pragmatic, and carefully consider the limitations of discursive thinking, book study, email list dialogue, then it should be pretty clear.that "develop/developing" should entail some type of practice that is direct. Keeping in mind pragmatic, how do we then determine what is direct practice? There should be gradual if not radical attenuation of unwholesome qualities, and an increase in wholesome qualities, including concentration and one pointedness of mind. If there is no one pointedness of mind, how could one ever hope to really see that there is no self who does or doesn't do sitting meditation? Without right concentration brought to full development, at best we have an indirect intellectual inference that there is no self who does sitting meditation, but when stakes are high and real life hits, what good is that intellectual inference? A basic grasp of the core Buddhist principles at the theoretical level is absolutely indispensable, but from there, we have to really get our priorities straight and discern what type of practice would bring all the factors of enlightenment to full development, including right concentration. I'm not advocating that we abandon book study of dhamma once we grasp the essentials, but I am strongly suggesting that we keep the pragmatic spirit in mind and carefully assess how our practice is bringing real attainment and attenuation of defilements, and make necessary adjustments and improvements. Constantly reassess. Are you ready to die? Can you experience that moment with readiness and equanimity? If not, can you look in your heart and honestly say that you've done everything in your power in this precious life to earnestly practice the Buddha's path? In an interesting parallel to the frequent sentiment I see on this list that right concentration or even mundane one pointed concentration is too hard to attain without aeons of accumulation, I've noticed in our school systems it's very common now for kids to be diagnosed by professionals or even themselves as having ADD (attention deficit disorder),as if it's some new incurable affliction that only affects modern people. Most of these kids don't have ADD. What they have is lack of mindfulness, lack of concentration, lack of motivation and too much sugar and too much junk food. How do I know? They can't pay attention for 5 minutes in math, but they can sit in front of a television for 5 hours straight watching movies or playing video games without taking a piss or eating. As for the disease of unattainable one pointed concentration for Buddhists, good news, there is a cure! You know how I know? If list members can focus for hours reading abidhamma (which I can't even do because I fall asleep or drop into a coma), and they can spend hours in total concentration and focus engaged in email dialogue, then they can certainly attain lofty states of samatha. Can you focus on the breath without the mind wandering off for 10 minutes? I bet you can. How about 9 minutes? I bet you can. 8 minutes? 5 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds? 10 seconds? 2 seconds? And soon, you can stay with the breath without the mind buzzing away for more than a fraction of second to wonder about the past,future, or discursive commentary or some random thought. At this point, you're confident that you still have lots of improvement and progress that is well within your reach... -fk 47340 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) upasaka_howard Hi, Frank (and Chris) - On reading your post, Frank, the adjective 'gladdening' came immediately to mind! Well done! (Sadhu X 3) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/7/05 2:09:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Chris, C: A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? Fk: If we take to heart that the Buddha's teaching was pragmatic, and carefully consider the limitations of discursive thinking, book study, email list dialogue, then it should be pretty clear.that "develop/developing" should entail some type of practice that is direct. Keeping in mind pragmatic, how do we then determine what is direct practice? There should be gradual if not radical attenuation of unwholesome qualities, and an increase in wholesome qualities, including concentration and one pointedness of mind. If there is no one pointedness of mind, how could one ever hope to really see that there is no self who does or doesn't do sitting meditation? Without right concentration brought to full development, at best we have an indirect intellectual inference that there is no self who does sitting meditation, but when stakes are high and real life hits, what good is that intellectual inference? A basic grasp of the core Buddhist principles at the theoretical level is absolutely indispensable, but from there, we have to really get our priorities straight and discern what type of practice would bring all the factors of enlightenment to full development, including right concentration. I'm not advocating that we abandon book study of dhamma once we grasp the essentials, but I am strongly suggesting that we keep the pragmatic spirit in mind and carefully assess how our practice is bringing real attainment and attenuation of defilements, and make necessary adjustments and improvements. Constantly reassess. Are you ready to die? Can you experience that moment with readiness and equanimity? If not, can you look in your heart and honestly say that you've done everything in your power in this precious life to earnestly practice the Buddha's path? In an interesting parallel to the frequent sentiment I see on this list that right concentration or even mundane one pointed concentration is too hard to attain without aeons of accumulation, I've noticed in our school systems it's very common now for kids to be diagnosed by professionals or even themselves as having ADD (attention deficit disorder),as if it's some new incurable affliction that only affects modern people. Most of these kids don't have ADD. What they have is lack of mindfulness, lack of concentration, lack of motivation and too much sugar and too much junk food. How do I know? They can't pay attention for 5 minutes in math, but they can sit in front of a television for 5 hours straight watching movies or playing video games without taking a piss or eating. As for the disease of unattainable one pointed concentration for Buddhists, good news, there is a cure! You know how I know? If list members can focus for hours reading abidhamma (which I can't even do because I fall asleep or drop into a coma), and they can spend hours in total concentration and focus engaged in email dialogue, then they can certainly attain lofty states of samatha. Can you focus on the breath without the mind wandering off for 10 minutes? I bet you can. How about 9 minutes? I bet you can. 8 minutes? 5 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds? 10 seconds? 2 seconds? And soon, you can stay with the breath without the mind buzzing away for more than a fraction of second to wonder about the past,future, or discursive commentary or some random thought. At this point, you're confident that you still have lots of improvement and progress that is well within your reach... -fk /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Howard, ---------- > Howard writes: > Whether "this" (i.e., waiting for conditions for understanding to arise) > is passive idleness or not depends on what one does while "waiting". ------ N: Very good! ------ H: Results come about not by any old conditions but due to specific conditions, ------- N: By conditions of the past, and also the present conditions, but all very specific. We should not oversee those of the past, even from past lives. Also in the past we may have listened to the Dhamma, where else does our interest today come from? And in the more recent past we listened, discussed, considered, and during all this time understanding could grow just a tiny bit. Think of the four Wheels sutta where it is explained that the merits of the past, association with the right friends, living in the right place are conditions. ------ H: and for > sentient beings, among the conditions that lead to results are volitions and > volitional actions. ----- N: Yes, kusala volition or intention. This I do not see so much as a controversial point. So long as we see it as a conditioned dhamma, and I know you do that. The cetasikas study helps me to see that kusala volition is supported by many other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati, lightness, adaptability, wieldiness etc. These cetasikas arise together with volition and support it while they are conascent. ------- H: Wish making may be among the counterproductive conditions, > but we can hardly avoid that entirely. ----- N: I quote from your other post, where you clarify more: H: And this is so, because we all have sense-of-self and self-view, except > for those ariyans here who are very adeptly keeping themselves under wraps! > ;-)) > I personally do not literally think there is "a self who can undertake > certain practices to attain enlightenment," but I do think that cultivation is > literally doable, prompted by cetana. ---------- N: Yes, the latent tendency of wrong view is still there. But at the moment of kusala citta, there is not wrong view at the same time. I am grateful to Kh. Sujin and other Dhamma friends to point out to me wrong view of self, it is so tricky. And, as you also said, it is necessary to know that one has it. ------- H: Moreover, wish making may also provide > an energy spur to fruitful intentions and conditions, provided that the Buddha's > teachings are understood and followed. ------- N: Among the many intricate conditions there is also akusala that can condition kusala, by way of natural decisive support condition. ------ H: The actions urged by the Buddha may > often appear to be a sort of passive idleness, because they are subtle. > Everything about the Dhamma is subtle. Dhammic goals include being fully awake > and aware of things as they actually are and being without craving, aversion, and > grasping, ------ N: We should be truthful and sincere and ask ourselves: is this a fact? At the moment of kusala citta there are no attachment or aversion, but then they arise again. They should be realized as such, I think. They are condiitoned dhammas. -------- H: and central elements of corresponding practice are clear attentiveness, calming, and relinquishment, and these practice elements are subtle and unobvious. > ----------------------------------- N: I agree that detachment is the goal and we should also begin with detachment, that is, no attachment to rapid progress or result. I would like to emphasize more the role of paññaa. Different levels of it: intellectual, and then direct understanding. But here I am, there is a big step to be taken from pariyatti to patipatti and the to pativedha, the realization. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is very important to be aware of sense of self and idea of self > entering in. It is also important to not let our becoming aware of the > presence of this ego-illusion dissuade us from continuing our practice, for if it does, > then Mara has had his way with us. > -------------------------------------- N: To continue developing understanding, and not to be dissuaded: here the courage, the perseverance, the right effort comes in. quote N: I like this one: > <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it > is not of the present moment, it is thinking about doing something for the > future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a > projection..> > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed. This is day-dreaming wishfulness. It needs to be seen and > let go of. And we can do that, provided we cultivate our watchfulness. > ---------------------------------- N: Instead of watchfulness I like to say again: understanding that has to become so keen and sharp. This is more than just watchfulness. But true, when there is sati there can be the development of direct understanding for that short moment. Nina. 47342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noticing, and what next? nilovg Hi Howard, By the way, Lodewijk says that he does not have much to say to your post you wrote before about the three trainings. He says, that he very well understands your points, that you have valid points. As for me, I always appreciate it, as I said, that you go on inquiring what I see as the right conditions for satipatthana, a good reminder, hang on to these points. When reading your post to Ken H, I appreciate it that you see the disadvantage of ignorance. I think you see the benefit of understanding. Understanding also attachment. You write: < the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins.> But we read and hear so little about the details *how*. You said that while being aware of breath you notice more hardness, heat, etc. of breath. More than in daily life where you find many distractions. You speak about applying the three characteristics and D.O. That is another step to be taken, but how does this follow? How do you personally see this? I do not think it could happen automatically, paññaa develops stage by stage. What is the step from mindfulness of breath to paññaa that realizes the three characteristics? Do you think it necesary to attain jhana first? Nina. op 06-07-2005 16:29 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Howard writes to Ken H: > A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of > that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really > ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a > drop, > there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of > suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at > first, > the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is > fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more > gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique > of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. 47343 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah {Attn.: Jon} - By including 'Tep' with Ven. Samahita in the message #47322, it shows that you might have read the message I wrote to Jon earlier < 'As soon as your mind has become steadied, quite steadied internally, bhukkhu, and arisen evil unprofitable things do not obsess your mind and remain, then you should train thus: "The mind-deliverance of lovingkindness will be developed by me, frequently practiced, made the vehicle, made the foundation, established, consolidated, and properly undertaken". You should train thus, bhikkhu'.>. Indeed, Sarah, the advantage of this ceto-vimutti that you have quoted, i.e. "whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the mind-release of loving-kindness. The mind-release of loving-kindness surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant", is a great reward for 99.999% of people (including me) who will most certainly have several more rebirths. Your quoted verse says, "For one who mindfully develops boundless loving-kindness, seeing the destruction of clinging, the fetters are worn away". The words, "the fetters are worn away", should not be interpreted as all 10 fetters are going to be completely eradicated, since the greatest reward (if without penetration of the Four Noble Truths) is the Brahma worlds. "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- undertaken, eleven benefits can be expected. Which eleven? "One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind gains concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies unconfused and -- if penetrating no higher -- is headed for the Brahma worlds." [AN XI.16] The ability ro "gain concentration quickly" is , I think, the reason for perfecting lovingkindness meditation before attempting the kayanupassana satipatthana as stated in the sutta (that I discussed recently with Jon). Kind regards, Tep P.S. I only gave the ceto-vimutti source of reference to Htoo once, because he had asked for it. =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ven Samahita,Tep & all, > > I also appreciated the passages you selected on metta. > > --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > > He adds an interesting footnote for [*] which Tep may like to comment on as I think he was discussing ceto-vimutti before with someone: > > "Mind-release (cetovimutti) is the culmination of the mind's purgation of emotional impurities by the practice of tranquillity (samatha). There are various kinds of mind-release, and although they are very exalted, the only one that is irreversible is the unshakable mind-release (akuppaa ceto vimutti) possessed by an arahant. The practice of loving-kindness, the first of the four divine abidings, culminates in the boundless mind-release (appamaa.naa cetovimutti) in which all ill will or malice (vyaapaada) is removed from the mind." > > Let me add he verse at the end of the sutta: > > "For one who mindfully develops > Boundless loving-kindness > Seeing the destruction of clinging > The fetters are worn away. > > ====== 47344 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Our emphases differ, but we are not far apart. (A couple comments inserted below, in context) In a message dated 7/7/05 2:51:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, ---------- > Howard writes: > Whether "this" (i.e., waiting for conditions for understanding to arise) > is passive idleness or not depends on what one does while "waiting". ------ N: Very good! ------ H: Results come about not by any old conditions but due to specific conditions, ------- N: By conditions of the past, and also the present conditions, but all very specific. We should not oversee those of the past, even from past lives. Also in the past we may have listened to the Dhamma, where else does our interest today come from? And in the more recent past we listened, discussed, considered, and during all this time understanding could grow just a tiny bit. Think of the four Wheels sutta where it is explained that the merits of the past, association with the right friends, living in the right place are conditions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. I realize the importance of this. ------------------------------------------- ------ H: and for > sentient beings, among the conditions that lead to results are volitions and > volitional actions. ----- N: Yes, kusala volition or intention. This I do not see so much as a controversial point. So long as we see it as a conditioned dhamma, and I know you do that. ---------------------------------- Yes. --------------------------------- The cetasikas study helps me to see that kusala volition is supported by many other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati, lightness, adaptability, wieldiness etc. These cetasikas arise together with volition and support it while they are conascent. ------- H: Wish making may be among the counterproductive conditions, > but we can hardly avoid that entirely. ----- N: I quote from your other post, where you clarify more: H: And this is so, because we all have sense-of-self and self-view, except > for those ariyans here who are very adeptly keeping themselves under wraps! > ;-)) > I personally do not literally think there is "a self who can undertake > certain practices to attain enlightenment," but I do think that cultivation is > literally doable, prompted by cetana. ---------- N: Yes, the latent tendency of wrong view is still there. But at the moment of kusala citta, there is not wrong view at the same time. I am grateful to Kh. Sujin and other Dhamma friends to point out to me wrong view of self, it is so tricky. And, as you also said, it is necessary to know that one has it. ------- H: Moreover, wish making may also provide > an energy spur to fruitful intentions and conditions, provided that the Buddha's > teachings are understood and followed. ------- N: Among the many intricate conditions there is also akusala that can condition kusala, by way of natural decisive support condition. ------ H: The actions urged by the Buddha may > often appear to be a sort of passive idleness, because they are subtle. > Everything about the Dhamma is subtle. Dhammic goals include being fully awake > and aware of things as they actually are and being without craving, aversion, and > grasping, ------ N: We should be truthful and sincere and ask ourselves: is this a fact? At the moment of kusala citta there are no attachment or aversion, but then they arise again. They should be realized as such, I think. They are condiitoned dhammas. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm speaking of penultimate goals here, Nina, not occasional kusala moments. ------------------------------------------ -------- H: and central elements of corresponding practice are clear attentiveness, calming, and relinquishment, and these practice elements are subtle and unobvious. > ----------------------------------- N: I agree that detachment is the goal and we should also begin with detachment, that is, no attachment to rapid progress or result. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: We begin with whatever characteristics we have. The fact that we are serious about the Dhamma means, I think, that we are somewhat removed from ground zero, but the fact is that we can only begin where we are. We cannot force being unattached to progress or result, but can only cultivate, slowly, such a relinquishing of desire. ------------------------------------------------ I would like to emphasize more the role of paññaa. Different levels of it: intellectual, and then direct understanding. But here I am, there is a big step to be taken from pariyatti to patipatti and the to pativedha, the realization. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is very important to be aware of sense of self and idea of self > entering in. It is also important to not let our becoming aware of the > presence of this ego-illusion dissuade us from continuing our practice, for if it does, > then Mara has had his way with us. > -------------------------------------- N: To continue developing understanding, and not to be dissuaded: here the courage, the perseverance, the right effort comes in. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes! Very good! :-) -------------------------------------- quote N: I like this one: > <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it > is not of the present moment, it is thinking about doing something for the > future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a > projection..> > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed. This is day-dreaming wishfulness. It needs to be seen and > let go of. And we can do that, provided we cultivate our watchfulness. > ---------------------------------- N: Instead of watchfulness I like to say again: understanding that has to become so keen and sharp. This is more than just watchfulness. But true, when there is sati there can be the development of direct understanding for that short moment. ------------------------------------------ Howard: We begin with watchfulness and such understanding as we already have, and by continuing, both can increase. ----------------------------------------- Nina. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47345 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 1:23pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth kelvin_lwin Hi Phil, > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > daily life. A few questions: 1) How do you know it's kusala and not miccha-sati? 2) How do you know if it's samma-sati with panna or not? 3) How do you know if it's not mana? - kel 47346 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noticing, and what next? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/7/05 3:02:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, By the way, Lodewijk says that he does not have much to say to your post you wrote before about the three trainings. He says, that he very well understands your points, that you have valid points. -------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for conveying that to me, and please send Lodewijk my very best! :-) ------------------------------------- As for me, I always appreciate it, as I said, that you go on inquiring what I see as the right conditions for satipatthana, a good reminder, hang on to these points. When reading your post to Ken H, I appreciate it that you see the disadvantage of ignorance. I think you see the benefit of understanding. Understanding also attachment. You write: < the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins.> But we read and hear so little about the details *how*. You said that while being aware of breath you notice more hardness, heat, etc. of breath. More than in daily life where you find many distractions. You speak about applying the three characteristics and D.O. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall speaking of *applying* them. It is my understanding and my belief that direct, detailed, and clear insight into these are the penultimate events that give entree to path & fruit. ---------------------------------------------- That is another step to be taken, but how does this follow? How do you personally see this? I do not think it could happen automatically, paññaa develops stage by stage. What is the step from mindfulness of breath to paññaa that realizes the three characteristics? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not qualified to discuss any of these matters in detail. I do believe, based on the limited and relatively poor personal experience I have had in following the Buddha's practice teachings, including study, contemplation, sila, guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness, and secluded and concentrated meditation, that these provide a natural development of wisdom and relinquishment. I leave the details of that development to others. If I am fortunate, I will see the development occur within my own mindstream, and then I will know the details directly. -------------------------------------------------- Do you think it necesary to attain jhana first? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what it is that is supposed to require or not require jhanas. I believe that a great deal of "progress" is possible without jhanic attainments, but that more advanced insights and the ariyan stages at least those above stream entry do require jhana. This, of course, is just my opinion. ------------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47347 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:47am Subject: Cetasikas or Citta on stage manifesting the other? ksheri3 NOW PLAYING: that stage show from Desperately Seeking Susan. Or was it Cabaret? Hi Egbert, Cool man. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > > Oh, I see, when you say "now where were we" I take it that I'm the > > platinum blonde on the casting couch and you're the Niles or Frazier > > type that resembles the meglamania which possesses the middle- class > > and the ABSOLUTE NEEDS of the mechanics, greese monkeys, called > > psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay I'll bite, nibble at this bait > > only to tempt your senses all the more with the meal that you > believe yourself will be reeling in for the pleasure of the group you > are a part of, see the proper definition of an orgy by/for Caligula. > It could be a Bacchanalian orgy since I've been known to get lossed in > > that x-tian orgy called Carnivale or Mardi Gras. ;)) ============================================= > > A very nice paragraph indeed, rich in all sorts of wonderful allusions > and metaphors. Unfortunately, when I wrote "now where were we" I was > only referring to the fact that I had already partially replied to > you. Sorry, not meaning to rain on your parade :-) colette: Oh dear me, a Golden Shower is always welcomed during Carnivale or Mardis Gras. :-o ----------------- > > > colette: I have just been sitting here reading The Stream of > > Consciousness by William James: > > > > "How comes it about that a man reading something aloud for the first > > time is ables immediately to emphasize all his words aright, unless > > from the very first he have a sense of at least the form of the > > sentence yet to come, whichsense is fused with his consciousness of > > the present word, and modifies its emphasis in his mind so as to make > > him give it the proper accent as he utters it?" > > > > Here I'm representing that the quantity of experience has made the > > impression on the mind where the experience of the sense has been > > categorized and is ready to be accessed as a person accesses their > > computer files. > > > > Statement Vanquished, Points Colette, Advantage Colette. ;)) > > ---------------- > I'm happy to concede the point, the match, the trophy even :-). > But.... before one can read one has to learn to read. And before one > can count one has to learn to count. In the context of evolution, it > may take millions of years for sentient beings to develop the art of > counting. And in societies of sentient beings that have developed > counting, it still takes years for a newborn to learn that black art. > The point of all the above is that it is millions of years of > evolution and years of learning within a cultural context that are > speaking when it is said that at the most fundamental level there is > only one experience at a time. colette: Now I see what you're speaking of. Let me have my say here. the above statement is designed to focus the student's, aspirant's, mind since the stream of consciousness is like a raging river torrent, white water. I'm reminded of that most important of quotes in one of societies most well loved depictions of reality on the screen, obsuration: "Charlie Don't Surf" now was that before or after the quote "I love the smell of nepalm in the morning"? It is a given that the mind is a raging torrent of thoughts that are disjointed and hodge-podged together. I was specifically going to make such statements to Nina today since it is her piece I'm reading on Cetasikas right now. In her paper, "Introduction" p.2, "The cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetaqsikas arise each moment and then they fall away immediately." I can tentatively accept that however, in the mind, there must be a residue, something left behind after the citta has fallen since it is the citta's cesation that causes the cesation of the cetasika. just as a people trampsing about in the jungle leave behind a mark of their presence so too must the cetasika remain in some form, in the mind. The aspirant which continually focuses on the subject as an object then returns to that path over and over again where the citta is substantiated! We can compare the ruts of the wagon wheels that are still in existance today as the American West was being populated. The trail existed but because it was returned to and traversed by many others, the marks or trail were created and left behind. See Beatten Path. So I've just created a schism between the Citta and Cetasika since I've gone and made it clear that something of the cetasika must remain and not cease as is the common belief in the cessation of the citta and it's supporting cetasikas. Here I've gotta ask does the citta support the cetasika since, using the model of the emporer that is supported by his servants, I've shown that the emporer and his imperial family are transient however the servants or cetasikas are more permanent than the emporer. Nibbana may at times be a realization of the Citta but the Citta is not Nibbana -- there is still a deeper meaning to Nibbana than just realizing the truth of the Citta. ---------------------- And it is also millions of years of > evolution and years of learning within another cultural context > speaking when it is said that the first statement is quite confused. > > There is experience way before there is counting. Having learnt to > count it is easy to believe that's what's actually happening. Having > learnt to count it is pretty damn hard to stop counting. colette: YES, it is pretty damn hard to stop once the rituals of counting are learned and internalized. This is lust for result however and is an entirely different subject than what we are discussing here. It is more of a Varjayana or Kundalini, or Rosicrucian, et al form and function aspect of ritual therefore lets just build the foundation or diasecting the foundation as a good Mason would do. ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- But when you > manage it, there's not a quantity in sight, not anywhere :-) colette: oh you devil you! you've gone and brought into play the use of sight here and now. Okay, I'll bit but I do not have time. I will be happy to discuss the rationale of the ability Money has to talk with certain mental patients, at another time. toodles, colette 47348 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Howard, Here we go again, discussing sensitive issues that could possibly cause flare-ups. But I think we're getting better at it. :-) -------------------- KH: > > The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. ............. H: > Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the weakening of defilements. ------------------- Thanks for agreeing, but I see the differences in our opinions creeping in already. By "clear and calm examination" I think you are referring to something to *do*. As you know, I don't see the Dhamma as prescribing anything to do. When right understanding has been acquired, what has to be done will be done - by conditions. -------------------------------- H:> A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a drop, there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at first, the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. -------------------------------- I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but yours is not quite the way I see it. Firstly, I think ignorant people do care about having too much attachment (to sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, for example). No matter how bad their suffering, however, they don't genuinely turn to the Buddha's Dhamma. They might be attracted to Buddhism for the wrong reasons, but I don't think that beings them any closer to the true Dhamma. (I could be wrong, of course.) ---------------------- <. . .> H: > in the extreme case of taking meditation per se, independent of how it is approached, as rite and ritual one, and dismissing it, one is being led by prejudice instead of by the Dhamma. So, care is needed in what are considered to be rites and rituals. ----------------------- Yes, prejudice can enter into it: sometimes I argue for the sake of argument and to score points. But sometimes, I genuinely have to disagree because the way I understand the Dhamma is totally inconsistent with the idea of formal practice. --------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > It certainly isn't common, but it is most certainly within sight for many. But you are quite right in saying that it requires more than just a little right effort. Except for those who already have a great propensity for it, due, I suppose, to considerable past cultivation, what is required is significant and very extensive and consistent practice over a long period of time. ---------------------------------------- Again, we don't entirely agree. The way you put it suggests practice of a kind of that does not come naturally. A person with just a little wisdom should not (for example) give up his worldly goods and live the life of a homeless beggar at the roots of trees and in deserted cemeteries. That will get him nowhere. In fact it will get him worse then nowhere - he will be following a path of wrong understanding. Then, of course, I take it further by saying that *anything* done with the idea of gaining something for oneself (even gaining something wholesome) is done for the wrong reason. ----------------------- KH: > > IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. .......... Howard: > How would you know, Ken? What is it that you can base your humble opinion on? ;-) ------------------------ As I have since explained to Evan, I base it on the decline of the sasana as predicted in the texts. -------------- KH: > > I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: > Ken, are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? ------------------------------------------- This reminds me of how the flood is crossed not by striving (e.g., wanting detachment) and not by standing still (not wanting detachment). The middle way becomes clearer when we realise there are only dhammas. ---------------- Howard: > C'mon, Ken. Don't go overboard. He isn't slandering anyone, let alone the Buddha! ---------------- It was a bit overboard to use the word 'slander.' I was referring to a sutta Mike has quoted once or twice, which says a person slanders the Buddha if he says, "This sutta needs no further explanation," if, in fact, that sutta does need further explanation. In my opinion, Ajahn Brahm was confusing concepts of realities with conventional concepts - as if they needed no further explanation. --------------------- H: > Some might think it is mischievous to counsel against making right effort. ---------------------- And they would be right, of course. To counsel against making right effort would be like saying, "The flood is crossed by standing still." It would be far better to counsel, "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are without self." ----------------------- KH: > > The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. ............ Howard: > I consider this to be a serious instance of hopelessness and wrong view that ignores 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. (I don't know what you mean by "at will", but without cetana, there is no Dhamma practice.) -------------------------------------- What I meant by, "at will," was, "as if dhammas were not conditioned." Your last statement doesn't help us much because cetana arises with every moment of consciousness. Ken H 47349 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Frank, Thanks for your reply. --------------------- F: > Um, I'm almost speechless. Sometimes Buddhists write things that are so astounding I really don't know what to say. --------------------- I know how you feel, Frank. One day, while reading an article on Access To Insight, I suddenly realised what Ven. Thanissaro was saying. After recovering from my "almost speechless" state, I wrote a series of posts to DSG. My main concern was that people, new to Buddhism, would read certain articles on that well-known internet site and come away with a horribly distorted view of the Buddha's teaching. I urged DSG members to warn any such newcomers. You have recently written a glowing report on Wat Metta and the teachings of V. Thanissaro, so I know you and I are looking at the Dhamma from two totally different perspectives. We are bound to be speechless from time to time. :-) On DSG and elsewhere, there are Dhamma students who prefer to put the anatta doctrine aside until they have progressed further along the Path. These are the people I am used to arguing with - urging them to consider anatta first and foremost. But then there is this breakaway group who tell us that anatta is not really true. (!!!) They say it is a fictitious device used by meditators to calm the mind and free it from "stress." I don't know how to communicate with those people. I certainly got nowhere with Victor. --------------------- <. . .> F: > Those of you on the list who view jhana as extremely difficult, how do you know? How many years of schooling and training did it take you to become competent to practice your chosen profession? How much time did you actually commit to attain proficiency in jhana? If someone were to go into a 1 year, or even a 3 month solitary retreat, emerged totally defeated and demoralized, I might understand how one could come to the conclusion that jhana is very difficult or impossible. But who here has made that effort? Exactly what personal experience is it that qualifies you to assert that jhana is nearly impossible to attain? ------------------ To quote some well-known wisdom: If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. You are what you are. The Buddha did not teach us to want reality to be something it is not. He taught us to know the present reality as it truly is. Nothing more! Ken H 47350 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/7/05 5:19:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Here we go again, discussing sensitive issues that could possibly cause flare-ups. But I think we're getting better at it. :-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, I kind of think so too! :-) --------------------------------- -------------------- KH: > > The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. ............. H: > Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the weakening of defilements. ------------------- Thanks for agreeing, but I see the differences in our opinions creeping in already. By "clear and calm examination" I think you are referring to something to *do*. As you know, I don't see the Dhamma as prescribing anything to do. When right understanding has been acquired, what has to be done will be done - by conditions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, gee, I sure hope that right understanding gets acquired ... somehow. :-) ---------------------------------------- -------------------------------- H:> A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a drop, there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at first, the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. -------------------------------- I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but yours is not quite the way I see it. Firstly, I think ignorant people do care about having too much attachment (to sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, for example). ------------------------------------ Howard: Note that I said "really ignorant". By that I meant abysmally ignorant! (I don't want to argue either!) ---------------------------------- No matter how bad their suffering, however, they don't genuinely turn to the Buddha's Dhamma. They might be attracted to Buddhism for the wrong reasons, but I don't think that beings them any closer to the true Dhamma. (I could be wrong, of course.) ---------------------- <. . .> H: > in the extreme case of taking meditation per se, independent of how it is approached, as rite and ritual one, and dismissing it, one is being led by prejudice instead of by the Dhamma. So, care is needed in what are considered to be rites and rituals. ----------------------- Yes, prejudice can enter into it: sometimes I argue for the sake of argument and to score points. But sometimes, I genuinely have to disagree because the way I understand the Dhamma is totally inconsistent with the idea of formal practice. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Well, we disagree on this, unless I just don't get what you mean by "formal practice". -------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > It certainly isn't common, but it is most certainly within sight for many. But you are quite right in saying that it requires more than just a little right effort. Except for those who already have a great propensity for it, due, I suppose, to considerable past cultivation, what is required is significant and very extensive and consistent practice over a long period of time. ---------------------------------------- Again, we don't entirely agree. The way you put it suggests practice of a kind of that does not come naturally. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I assure you that the practice needed for "entering" jhanas does not come naturally. In fact, the Dhamma doesn't come naturally at all. It goes against the stream, against the flow, against the grain. What comes "naturally" for the most part is following our cravings, being led around by the nose by the defilements. -------------------------------------------- A person with just a little wisdom should not (for example) give up his worldly goods and live the life of a homeless beggar at the roots of trees and in deserted cemeteries. That will get him nowhere. In fact it will get him worse then nowhere - he will be following a path of wrong understanding. --------------------------------------------- Howard: So, are you advocating that nobody except adepts should go forth, for example? -------------------------------------------- Then, of course, I take it further by saying that *anything* done with the idea of gaining something for oneself (even gaining something wholesome) is done for the wrong reason. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So don't eat, Ken, don't sleep, and don't take medicine. ;-) Oh, yes - also don't work. ---------------------------------------------- ----------------------- KH: > > IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. .......... Howard: > How would you know, Ken? What is it that you can base your humble opinion on? ;-) ------------------------ As I have since explained to Evan, I base it on the decline of the sasana as predicted in the texts. -------------- KH: > > I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: > Ken, are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? ------------------------------------------- This reminds me of how the flood is crossed not by striving (e.g., wanting detachment) and not by standing still (not wanting detachment). The middle way becomes clearer when we realise there are only dhammas. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. But my question remains: Are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? -------------------------------------------- ---------------- Howard: > C'mon, Ken. Don't go overboard. He isn't slandering anyone, let alone the Buddha! ---------------- It was a bit overboard to use the word 'slander.' I was referring to a sutta Mike has quoted once or twice, which says a person slanders the Buddha if he says, "This sutta needs no further explanation," if, in fact, that sutta does need further explanation. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Good. I'm pleased that you are backing off a bit on this. ------------------------------------------ In my opinion, Ajahn Brahm was confusing concepts of realities with conventional concepts - as if they needed no further explanation. --------------------- H: > Some might think it is mischievous to counsel against making right effort. ---------------------- And they would be right, of course. To counsel against making right effort would be like saying, "The flood is crossed by standing still." It would be far better to counsel, "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are without self." --------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, mmm. I'm so glad you said that, because now I'm liberated! ;-) --------------------------------- ----------------------- KH: > > The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. ............ Howard: > I consider this to be a serious instance of hopelessness and wrong view that ignores 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. (I don't know what you mean by "at will", but without cetana, there is no Dhamma practice.) -------------------------------------- What I meant by, "at will," was, "as if dhammas were not conditioned." ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course they are conditioned! As the song lyric goes: "Nothing come from nothing, nothing ever will." And that includes awakening. --------------------------------------- Your last statement doesn't help us much because cetana arises with every moment of consciousness. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Whether Abhidhamma is correct in that or not, do you consider it irrelevant what the *nature* of that cetana is? Not all volition is the same. Not all is kusala/useful/wholesome. Some volition bears bitter fruit. Are you not aware of volition arising in your mind and the nature of it?. Can you not guard the mind as the Buddha instructed us to do? (These last two questions are rhetorical: I know you *are* aware, and I know you *can* guard the mind.) ------------------------------------------- Ken H ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47351 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet HI Kel Excellent questions that I will jot down and ask myself now and then. Ph: > > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > > daily life. > 1) How do you know it's kusala and not miccha-sati? > 2) How do you know if it's samma-sati with panna or not? > 3) How do you know if it's not mana? I should say as I posted elsewhere that I have no expectactions or make no claims whatsoever about sati. My current concern lies with something much more primitive - dealing with moral transgression. So it is easier to me to both identify and feel confident about progress in that area. I feel even reading and reflecting on suttas can be sufficient condition to steer us clear of certain transgresssions, through there are other conditions at work that will remind us that we cannot be sure that there will not be akusala kamma pattha, not by any means. So when I say "confidence in kusala" it is not with respect to sati, not yet. So thanks, you pointed out that I was just gassing, as usual. Gassing with right intellectual knowledge, perhaps, but nothing more than that. It's not a bad idea for beginners to repeat what they've learned - it reinforces their intellectual understanding - but I should always make it clear that I don't *really* know what I'm talking about, from experience. I think people who read my posts regularly know that, but thanks for the reminder. I guess the answer to the second question above is that panna itself, if developed, will know, or it won't know. There's no easy answer. There can be forms of sati at the level of sila and dana that aren't accompanied by panna, I think I've learned. Perhaps it is best to understand them first, and have no expectations about panna. Perhaps. I hope all beginners will be aware that just being aware of one's posture is not sati with panna. The internet has made the satipatthana sutta available to the whole wide world and it is attractive to read "when he walks he knows he is walking" and think that there is wisdom at work. As for the third question, there is always mana mixed in with everything we do related to Dhamma, as with everything in life, I'm sure - we are worldlings. Mana is translated as conceit, but it refers to all forms of comparing ourselves to others. I think even sotapannas still have some mana, don't they? (I wouldn't have thought they do, but I'm pretty sure I learned that they do.) I would say mana is one of the forms of akusala we shouldn't worry about too much - it is inevitable for worldlings. Worrying about it would just be more akusala. Perhaps we can be aware of it now and then and perhaps that will condition movement away from it. As for the first question, I don't know. It certainly is a good thing to keep thinking about. For all of us. Thanks. Metta, Phil 47352 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Ken and Howard, Sorry for butting in. I agree that we are all getting better and better at discussing sensitive issues. A small contribution from me which is not intended as fuel for any fire :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Here we go again, discussing sensitive issues that could possibly > cause flare-ups. But I think we're getting better at it. :-) > > -------------------- > KH: > > The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get > rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity > for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. > ............. > > H: > Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for > what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or > aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the > weakening of defilements. > ------------------- > > Thanks for agreeing, but I see the differences in our opinions > creeping in already. By "clear and calm examination" I think you are > referring to something to *do*. As you know, I don't see the Dhamma > as prescribing anything to do. When right understanding has been > acquired, what has to be done will be done - by conditions. > === Herman > I think a possible outcome of hearing the teachings on dependent origination is to stir awareness in the receptive that something is being *done* all the time there is time, so to speak. And that it is ignorance of that fact that fuels the cycle to go on infinitely. I do not think that right understanding or right effort occur without some awareness that they occur. When they occur they may well be accompanied by thoughts of a *doing*. This is immaterial in itself. What can also occur, of course, is that the thoughts of this doing are accompanied by the thought "Oh my gawd, this is wrong understanding" and a concerted (wrong) effort is applied to thwart the germinating seed from developing. Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. Which implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're doing. Kind Regards Herman 47353 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/7/05 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it's not so much "if you don't *like* what's going on", I believe, but, instead, more a matter of "if you see that what's going on isn't useful". ------------------------------------------ Which implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're doing. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Uh, I'm confused, Herman. First of all, I don't get your point. One should not necessarily keep on doing the same thing if you like what is happening, because while you may like it, it may, in fact, be harmful to you or others. But also, Herman, on a technical point, it happens that the 1st does not actually logically imply the 2nd. The 1st, as you stated it, is of the form ~L --> D ("If not L, then D"), and the 2nd is a sentence of the form L --> ~D ("If L, the not D"). But that 2nd is definitely not a logical consequence of the 1st. What does logically follow from the 1st is ~D --> L . The logic you were using is actually invalid. Another example of the same invalid reasoning would be the argument: "If you don't love your spouse, you need to get a divorce", therefore "If you do love your spouse, you don't need to get a divorce". Can you see why that is invalid? Even if you love your spouse, you still might need to get a divorce for *another* reason (such as s/he will be killed otherwise). Likewise, in the primary example, even if you do like what's going on, you might still need to do something different for *another* reason. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47354 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 7:16pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Howard, Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my logic. You are quite correct. Some more below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/7/05 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > > Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one > thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you > don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it's not so much "if you don't *like* what's going on", I believe, > but, instead, more a matter of "if you see that what's going on isn't useful". > ------------------------------------------ > Which > implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're > doing. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Uh, I'm confused, Herman. First of all, I don't get your point. One > should not necessarily keep on doing the same thing if you like what is happening, > because while you may like it, it may, in fact, be harmful to you or others. == I agree with you. I was trying to avoid having to take a stand on whether the Buddha's teaching is prescriptive or not. A sutta comes to mind, and it will be a poorly memorised rendition. The Buddha is asked why some who have heard the teachings "cross over" and others who have heard the same teachings do not. His answer does not involve the "right accumulations" (which is the panacea of convenience), but involves whether what is heard is put into practice. In this regard, the Buddha is not prescriptive. He does not say "you should do this or that". He does say "if you want to achieve this goal, do this and that" and leaves it to the hearer what they do with it. Kind Regards Herman > But also, Herman, on a technical point, it happens that the 1st does not > actually logically imply the 2nd. The 1st, as you stated it, is of the form ~L > --> D ("If not L, then D"), and the 2nd is a sentence of the form L --> ~D > ("If L, the not D"). But that 2nd is definitely not a logical consequence of the > 1st. What does logically follow from the 1st is ~D --> L . The logic you were > using is actually invalid. Another example of the same invalid reasoning > would be the argument: "If you don't love your spouse, you need to get a divorce", > therefore "If you do love your spouse, you don't need to get a divorce". Can > you see why that is invalid? Even if you love your spouse, you still might > need to get a divorce for *another* reason (such as s/he will be killed > otherwise). Likewise, in the primary example, even if you do like what's going on, you > might still need to do something different for *another* reason. > > With metta, > Howard > 47355 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/7/05 10:16:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my logic. You are quite correct. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the ready acceptance! You are very much without ego - seriously, and I think that's wonderful!! :-) ---------------------------------------------- Some more below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/7/05 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > > Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one > thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you > don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it's not so much "if you don't *like* what's going on", I believe, > but, instead, more a matter of "if you see that what's going on isn't useful". > ------------------------------------------ > Which > implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're > doing. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Uh, I'm confused, Herman. First of all, I don't get your point. One > should not necessarily keep on doing the same thing if you like what is happening, > because while you may like it, it may, in fact, be harmful to you or others. == I agree with you. I was trying to avoid having to take a stand on whether the Buddha's teaching is prescriptive or not. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ah, I see. :-) Well, please don't avoid taking a stance. Of *course* his teachings were prescriptive!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- A sutta comes to mind, and it will be a poorly memorised rendition. The Buddha is asked why some who have heard the teachings "cross over" and others who have heard the same teachings do not. His answer does not involve the "right accumulations" (which is the panacea of convenience), but involves whether what is heard is put into practice. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! I do hope you can find the sutta. I'll have it bronzed and placed on my wall!! ------------------------------------------------- In this regard, the Buddha is not prescriptive. He does not say "you should do this or that". He does say "if you want to achieve this goal, do this and that" and leaves it to the hearer what they do with it. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Hah! No prescription! ;-) Anyone who wouldn't understand the prescription he was dispensing had just too much dust in his eyes to bother with! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47356 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! / Susima Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - I would like to resply to your message #47272, relating to the Susima Sutta and the commentary by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening". [Thanissaro Bhikkhu] ----------------------------------------- Sarah: I agree that if one reads the sutta alone, that it's possible for some, like B.T. to read it with the interptetation he does. However, if one reads it in the light of its commentary especially or Abhidhamma (or possibly even other suttas), I think it's impossible to read it this way as suggesting jhanas must be attained first. So it may come down to whether we give our own interpretations or those of the ancient commentators more credence, don't you think? Tep: Whether you prefer to read the sutta one way or another, it seems that the same question on jhana always arises -- Is it true at least that the first jhana is necessary for developing insights leading to summa- vimutti? I remember reading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's commentary that answers the above question. The following Web address should be searched. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#j ---------------------------------------- Sarah: Samatha-vipassana are yoked together, as I understand, at the vipassana nanas. There is samatha (calm) with each moment of kusala. Pehaps you are referring to jhana attainment or samatha development at least in your comments above? Tep: There are several levels of calm (or serenity), and there are several levels of kusala. As I understand, samatha is the consequence of citta establishing unity (ekatta) and is purified from hindrances -- in other words, the meditator is developing concentration <"The unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta)."> Cognizance (citta) is then free from distraction. Then various kinds of insight knowledge arise, such as the thirteen knowledges of cleansing (see the Breathing Meditation series). As Ven. Sariputta stated, "cognizance arrived at unity enters into purification of the way (cleansing knowledge #11), is intensified in equanimity(cleansing knowledge #12), and is satisfied by knowledge(nana sama-pahansita) which is the cleansing knowledge #13. From this point onward, the four rupa jhanas all the way through the principal insights and the four ariya- maggas can be realized (see paragraphs 19 - 168, Breathing Treatise). So, a short answer to your question above is an emphatic "yes". Thank you for asking the two important questions. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I've hesitated about continuing this thread, but a few comments perhaps... > ... 47357 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". Hi Sarah, I prefer the description consciousness is a reflection of an object as experience; in Howard's lingo "presencing". However, this only applies to 5-door consciousness or a wisdom consciousness. In no way does a consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness rooted in greed is the experience of greed, not some object. I believe that is standard satipatthana. As for the object of greed, a careful reading of the 'craving' section on dependent origination in Vism. (Vism.XII,233 fol.) shows that craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. It is my contention that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of desire. We can say dependent on contact feeling arises and dependent on feeling, craving; but what I am trying to get at is what we "think of" as the object of desire, what we say we want or like, is a conceptualization of the formation of visible object, feeling, latent tendency and probably many other factors as well. It is good to know that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like arises conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes something is logic, not reality. Larry 47358 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:01am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 243 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] It is difficult to know exactly when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. We may take for calm what is actually akusala. If someone wants to develop samatha, the calm which is wholesome, he has to know very precisely when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. Thus, samatha cannot be developed without right understanding. Understanding knows when the citta is peaceful in the wholesome way and when the citta is clinging to quietness and thus akusala. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47359 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations nilovg Hi Colette, op 07-07-2005 20:47 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: In her paper, "Introduction" p.2, "The > cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment > of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas arise each moment > and then they fall away immediately." I can tentatively accept that > however, in the mind, there must be a residue, something left behind > after the citta has fallen since it is the citta's cessation that > causes the cessation of the cetasika. ------- N: Each citta with its accompanying cetasikas arises, experience an object and then fall away together. Each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next citta, without there being an interval. This goes on throughout life and from life to life. Seeing is one citta, and thinking about what is seen is another one, hearing is one citta and thinking about what is heard is another citta. It seems that we can see and hear at the same time, but in fact only one citta arises at a time and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the same time, and this shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. You entered this world with certain tendencies, abilities, inclinations, different from other people. This was because you accumulated such tendencies in the past. Also in this life you react in a certain way to what you experience, but the citta and cetasikas fall away. Since each citta is succeeded by a next one such tendencies are carried on to the next citta, and so on, even from life to life. You remember former experiences, though these have fallen away. This is because the remembrance of these experiences is carried on from one citta to the next. What we learn is never lost, it is accumulated in the citta. Wholesome tendencies and unwholesome tendencies are accumulated and these condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta. We speak in conventional language about different characters, but in reality these are accumulated tendencies in each citta. It is not a residu that stays the same, it is subject to change. New experiences and tendencies are accumulated at each moment. That is why understanding can grow and even develop to supramundane paññaa. Nina. 47360 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:50am Subject: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned dhamma. There is no man, woman, human being, deva in ultimate sense. There is no person in ultimate sense. Ultimate realities are not difficult to see and equally they are hard to see. This will depend on individual. To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these instructions are not fully understood and there always are misinterpretations. Here is a good material to explore what insturctions were and what were not. There is no person in all these materials. Dhamma-lover will love Dhamma and they will live life according to Dhamma. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ''Commentaries on certain online materials of anapanasati: Someone wrote: Introduction This booklet is written to beginner meditators as well as for those who are more practiced in meditation. The author is taking the instructions given in the oldest of the original discourses [suttas] still in existence today. [ commentor: I am thinking whether this means original teachings in Pali, which are The Buddha's words or just quoting on translated materials and just self-investigating on translated materials.] They may seem a little different from other instructions that you have been given or read in the past. But, rest assured, these instructions are what the Buddha taught over 2500 years ago. These instructions include 'The Four Foundations of Mindfulness' (in Pali this is called Satipatthana), that is Mindfulness of the Body, Mindfulness of Feeling, Mindfulness of Mind, and Mindfulness of Dhammas. [Commentor: As these are translated materials they may be a bit different from the original ones. Example is that 'mind' is not exactly what westerners know as 'mind'. And 'body' is not the 'body' in lay people understanding.] By practicing these meditation instructions given by the Buddha in this sutta, the meditator will naturally experience the meditation stages called Jhana (This is a Pali word that means a level or stage of meditation). [Commentor: Jhaana is a Pali word. It has a specific meaning. Not all those who follow the instructions will achieve jhaana because mahaasatipatthaana sutta is not for jhaana achievement. There is distinction between jhaana and magga.] According to the original teaches of the Buddha, the 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' and 'The Mindfulness of Breathing' suttas are intimately intertwined and dependent on each other. So, when the meditator practices in this way, can then gain the insight, wisdom, tranquility and equanimity needed to experience the ultimate goal of awakening called Nibbana. What is meditation? Meditation is one of those kinds of words that we all hear and it seems to have different meanings for different people. When asked, some people may practice meditation but, they can't explain exactly what it is they do. So here is a definition of meditation that agrees with the Buddha's instructions. Meditation is the skill in watching "how" mind moves. [Commentor: This is the first place that goes wrong and lead to misunderstanding or wrong view or micchaa-ditthi. Because the word that should have proper meaning are defined in the poorest way. Actually meditation itself is not the right word for Buddhists' practice. Because all other religions do have meditation. But in Buddhism there always is understanding and wisdom while meditating. This means there must not be any wrong view.] By this I mean, when mind is very happy, peaceful and calm then all of a sudden something happens and mind becomes sad, or anxious, or angry, "How" did that happen? [Commentor: The Buddha already described in mahaasatipatthaana sutta regarding different mind state and how to recognize them and how to discern them in proper way and in wise attention.] "How" did mind move from the happiness, peacefulness and calm to becoming sad, anxious or angry? Meditation is being able to watch how this happens, and then "how" to let go, without getting sad, anxious, or angry. Meditation is the art of observation and relaxing. [commentor: Meditation is not something that is watching. If someone believes that someone is watching something in order to develop calmness or in order to develop wisdom then there already arise ditthi or wrong view. That is the idea of self or self-identity. This is ditthi. Ditthi does not arise with panna.] Commentaries The instructions given here may seem different from what may be taught elsewhere. The reason is that over the years many scholars have written about meditation. These writings are called commentaries. [Commentor: This is where wrong assumption is made. Commentaries were by Sariputta, Moggallaana and other great arahats and elders. They are not modern ones as one thinks as 'many scholars'.] These commentaries are often written by people who have never practiced meditation, but have studied exclusively. [Commentor: I think this is a personal belief of the writer.] They didn't write about their own direct experiential knowledge from practicing meditation, but would talk to people who practiced many different types of meditation and copied what was reported to them. These commentaries may have been very convincing to the scholars, but when anyone compares them against what is taught in the original texts, [Commentor: I do not think this means 'original Pali instructions'.] ..they can see a very big difference in the instructions. Sometimes the commentaries completely leave out whole sections of the instructions and sometimes they just go out on their own and add what another style of meditation they think works, then gives them as the proper instructions, as if they were given from the Buddha. [Commentor: I would like to see what is what regarding these 'the proper instructions'.] Please understand that all styles of meditation are of real benefit to anyone who practices regularly. [Commentor: If someone regularly practises wrong method then this will lead to wrong ending.] But consider that just like looking at a map, all roads don't lead to the same place. (there are many different roads that may be taken, but they may not get to the desired destination.) In the same way, when we go back to the discourses given by the Buddha there is a map that leads directly to the cessation of all suffering, when we follow it closely. [Commentor: Similies are for comparative thinking and not to be equated.] This is the reason that the author has taken the time and energy to go back to the original discourses [suttas] to understand and practice meditation in the way that was originally taught. Which was painstakingly researched by direct experience and studied for many, many years. [Commentor: I am thinking whether Pali and real teachings are painstaking researched and learned or not.] Psychotherapy and Buddhist Meditation Western psychology and psychotherapy differs from Buddhist meditation and awareness in very subtle but obvious ways. This is not to say that western psychology and psychotherapy are wrong and Buddhist meditation is right. They both have their advantages and uses but the end results are quite different. The roads on the map are different and lead to different results. Western psychology and psychotherapy takes a person suffering from mental imbalances and shows them how to live in a more balanced way. Buddhist meditation takes a mentally balanced person and shows them how to be fully awake, truly happy and free from all suffering. Psychology and psychotherapy deals entirely with thoughts and feelings, then spends time analyzing them. The therapist helps the client to get involved with the identification and content of the feelings or emotions. This is when the psychologist talks about making the "ego" healthy. Whereas, in Buddhism we learn to see how the experiences we have are nothing more than an ever-changing "process" (called dependent origination). We learn that getting involved with these thoughts and feelings personally, or taking them to be "me or mine", is the cause of great unhappiness and suffering. The ultimate goal of the Buddha's teachings is to show us how to let go of any ideas about there being a permanent "self or ego" that controls everything. The Buddhist meditator learns to see all things in life as being simply part of a "process" (dependent origination) that is ever-changing (anicca), painful (dukkha) and impersonal (anatta). [Commentor: All these go beyond the sutta and they seem trying to explain psychology and psychotherapy. And also 'impersonal' the word does not explain 'anatta' in its fullest sense. Examples are mechanisms. Mechanisms are impersonal. But again these mechanisms are also anatta. So 'impersonal' does not equate and does not explain 'anatta'.] Why versus How The goals of western psychology and psychotherapy and Buddhist meditation work at solving the human conditions of suffering, but they are quite unique and have extremely different end results. They both teach a person to become more aware of thoughts and feelings, but as you can see their perspectives are quite different. [Commentor: Again these go on over psychology and psychotherapy. This is bryond sutta.] In other words, western psychology and psychotherapy places its focus on observing past experiences and analyzes these experiences to find out "WHY" it occurred. Then it shows a person how to live a healthy life by dealing with these past occurrences. The therapist helps to teach an unbalanced person to experience life in a more balanced or regular way. Buddhism, on the other hand, puts its focus on observing experience and seeing "how" the whole process of experience occurs through seeing dependent origination and teaches us to understand that it is an impersonal evolution. [Commetor: Again this is continuation of discussion on psychology and psychotherapy. unbalanced and imbalance are not the same word. I do not know whether 'aanaapaanasati sutta'preaches dependent origination or not. But here what I see is 'Dependent Origination' is delibrately inserted.] The key to Buddhist teachings deals with "HOW" this process works. Whereas, western psychology deals with "why" these things come up. Which is dealing mostly with concepts and the reasons for their appearing. Buddhism shows how to develop our mind with pure, coherent awareness and observation of every process (experience) as it arises and teaches us to understand how to see more clearly. This is dealing directly with the reality of observing exactly "how" things arise in the present moment. So the Buddha's teachings are seen only as an impersonal process and not to falsely identify with or get overly involved with this process by thinking about it. The Buddha teaches us to see this whole experience and let go, relax, then gently re- direct our attention back to the breath and relaxing, without getting involved with and wrongly identifying with the content of those thoughts and feelings. [Commentor: I did not find 'let go' 'relax' 'gently redirect' in aanaapaanasati sutta.] Or we could say, we learn to see everything as an impersonal experience to be seen, not to get involved with or take this process as being a personal self or ego. [Commentor: When communication is going on the word like 'impersonal experience' 'personal experience' etc are confusing.] These two different types of perspective have different goals and objectives. Their separate approaches can bring happiness and balance into our life. The Buddhist approach tends to go beyond ordinary types of awareness and it leads us to see how to let go of all ego- identification so we can truly see and experience the ultimate goal, which is the complete cessation of all suffering. When a person takes the time and energy to practice meditation in this way, they will begin to see and understand for themselves just why the Buddha's path is such an amazing way of experiencing the world around them. The Buddha proclaimed that "We are the Happy One's" . Doing the meditation that is written in this booklet, you will see why for yourself. Anapanasati Sutta [Commentor: This seems the start of aanaapaanasati sutta.] The actual instructions given in the discourse called "The Anapanasati Sutta" are only one paragraph long but the explanation will take a bit more space. These instructions are word for word, letter for letter repeated in other discourses [suttas] as well. For example, they are in the "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" [Satipatthana Sutta] and the "Mindfulness of the Body" [Kayagatasati Sutta] discourses as well, to name just a couple. As you read these instructions and give them a try, you will begin to see and understand how mind works, which is a very exciting and fun experience. [Commentor: The Buddha teachings are not fun-searching material. Teachings are for understandingof dhamma and for realization of dhamma. Excitement and fun are not for ecstatics and disciples. The teachings always say sabbe sankhaaraa dukkhaa. The Buddha did not say dhamma are for excitement or for fun.] Also, if you have practiced other styles of meditation, you will notice that things like headaches, vertigo, or ringing in the ears, won't occur anymore. This meditation practice is not only about sitting as still as a statue and doing a quiet type of meditation but it is very helpful in all daily activities that we have to do during our everyday lives. [Commentor: This is very wrong assumption. 'Sitting' 'statue' 'doing' 'a quiet type' etc etc are not true dhamma. Even this may lead to wrong view that sitting like a statue creates wisdom or liberate from dukkha or suffering.] Please follow these instructions as closely as possible for the best results and progress. [Commentor: Here 'best result' 'progress' indicate that someone is thinking that thereis a self and that self is sitting like a statue and checking 'the progress' and 'the best result'. All these are not right dhamma.] Also, it is best to do only one meditation at a time, because mind is fickle and will jump around when there are different types of meditation being practiced at the same time. It can become confusing as to which meditation to practice then the meditator tries doing one type and when it doesn't seem right the meditator jumps to another type of meditation, as a result, they wind up not doing any real meditation at all. So, please prepare yourself for a very pleasant journey to the cessation of suffering. Maha-Metta always, Signed & Address deleted. Dec.2003 Current Era - Dec. 2547 Buddhist Era -ooOoo- [Commentor: 'a very pleasant journey' seems like there is someone who is a self and that self is following'a very pleasant journey'. The Buddha did not applause 'self' or 'atta' at all. Ruupam bhikkhave anattaa..., Vedanaa bhikkhave anattaa.., Sannaa bhikkhave anattaa.., Sankhaara bhikkhave anattaa.., Vinnaanaa bhikkhave anattaa.., . The Buddha clearly said that there are anatta.] Meditation Instructions Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Samma Sambuddhassa There will be some Pali words introduced into this instruction and the author will try to make these words understandable in English for the readers. This discourse is taken from the "Anapanasati Sutta", 'Anapana' is a Pali word meaning in breathing and out breathing. 'Sati' means mindfulness, watchfulness or observation power. [Commentor: Sati is more than that. Sati is not just 'mindfulness'. Because thieves can be mindful when they are stealing money or properties.But they do not have sati even though they may have mindfulness not to be caught by owners or by police.] So, the meaning of "anapanasati" means watchfulness of the in breathing and out breathing. The Pali word "Sutta" means 'thread'. [Commentor: Su means 'hear'. Suta means 'heard'. Sutta means 'things to be heard'. Suttas are for disciples and when these disciples hear or when suttas are heard then these disciples can follow accordingly. Teachers do not need suttas. Because teachers teach suttas for others to hear.] So whenever we see the word 'sutta' it is another thread that is woven with other 'suttas' and together they make a very beautiful cloth of 'Dhamma' [many people use the Sanskrit word 'Dharma', instead. they have exactly the same meaning but the author prefers to use the Pali pronunciation] 'Dhamma' is another Pali word that has many different meanings some of which are truth, the way things are, the Buddha's teachings, the true nature of things, etc. This sutta [thread] is taken from the "The Anapanasati Sutta" and will be given in bold letters and underlined. There will be an explanation given in regular type after each section. [16] "And how, monks, is mindfulness of breathing developed and cultivated, so that it is of great fruit and great benefit? [Commentor: I do not know why the author wrote aanaapaanasati begins with 16.] [17] "Here a monk, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and establishes mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. These are the preparatory stages of the meditation. It basically means for the meditator to find a quiet place to sit with little or no distractions. Turn off the TV, radio or telephone and find a place that has very few noises which will pull you away from the sitting. For the beginning meditator noises can turn into a big distraction and can pull one's attention away from watching the breath and relaxing. [Commentor: Actually noise etc are also dhamma and when properly and wisely attended it is equally good wherever one stays.] After the meditator becomes more familiar with this practice, noises won't really be a bother anymore. They just become a part of the meditation practice. The next part says to sit with the legs folded crosswise. But the author has found that many people in this country are not used to sitting on the oor with their legs crossed. When they try, it can cause a lot of pain to arise. The meditator can sit on a cushion or if they prefer they can sit on a chair [as long as they don't lean into the back rest]. Some meditation teachers want their students to sit in what is called a "full or half lotus" position, but it really isn't necessary. There is no magic in sitting on the floor and twisting the legs into a pretzel. A comfortable sitting posture where the legs don't go to sleep is best. [Commentor: Bhavanaa or mental cultivation is the work of mind and nothing to do with posture. The most important thing is to be able to stay for a long time.] The reason that the Buddha recommended sitting on the floor is at the time he was alive they didn't use chairs, so everyone sat on the floor and they were used to it. [Commentor: This is self-assumption. Some sat on stone, some sat on log, some sit on bundle of grass and even The Buddha sat on the bundle of grass.] But, in our culture, we hardly ever sit on the oor, so our bodies are not used to it. Also, it may take quite a long time to become used to sitting on the oor in a comfortable way. It can even be a painful experience for a long time before the legs get limber enough to be comfortable. It is the meditator's choice whether they sit on the floor or not. When sitting in meditation it is best to sit with the back nicely straight, with one vertebrae stacked on the other. Please don't sit in a rigid way where the back is overly straight as this can cause unnecessary pain and back problems to arise. [Commentor: I think this is the author's advice rather than The Buddha's words in aanaapaanasati sutta. The Buddha already told that 'sit in erect'.] Contrary to what many people think, pain is not the point of the meditation and nothing is further from the truth. Watching mind move and seeing how it goes from one thing to another is what meditation is all about. Please sit with the legs in a comfortable position and have the back nicely straight. [Commentor: This contradict the Buddha's teaching. Pain has to be fought. Pain is contemplated. Pain is considered. 'Vedanaanupassii viharati' said the Buddha. When there arises sukha then there will not be any pain at all. Sukha is a part of jhaana or absorption. When pain cannot be overcome how will one be able to experience calm and tranquility?] Now is when the actual instructions begin. [18] "Breathing in long, he understands: 'I breathe in long'; or breathing out long, he understands: 'I breathe out long': Breathing in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short'; breathing out short, he understands: 'I breathe out short'. The key words here are "He understands", it doesn't say anything about placing your attention on the nostril tip or the abdomen. The instructions don't say to count the breaths, nor do they say anything about following the breath around in the body from the nostril tip to the throat to the lungs to the abdomen and back again. The instructions simply say to "understand" what the breath is doing in the present moment, They never mention focusing one's attention in any one place. All that these instructions say is the "He/she understands when they breathe in and out long or short. So where does one put their attention? The answer is 'One Understands' when breath is long or short, they understand when breath is fine or coarse, they understand when breath is fast or slow. In other words the meditator knows what the breath is doing in the present moment. [Commentor: This is the worst ever exists interpretation and translation. Breathing is just name or pannatti and nothing to do with understanding. There arise 'fullness' 'tenseness' when breathe in and 'flatness' 'laxity' when breathe out. Breathing in and out cause bodily movements. These movements are ruupa and they are to be discerned. When there are bodily movements there are sensation like 'heat' 'cold' 'hard' 'soft' 'tense' 'recoil' etc. These are real ruupa. Breathing is not ruupa. When there is ditthi or wrong-view there cannot arise any panna or wisdom at all.] The meditator doesn't need to focus on any one place or follow it from one place to another. They only have to understand the general characteristics of what the breath is doing. Let us continue on: He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body. He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the bodily formation': He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation'. Now, we get to the part where the real instructions abide. [Commentor: This seems like that the author happily discovers something new, which others have not discovered yet. But this is not right fact.] When the instructions says 'He trains thus' the meditator begins to train their mind to become more observant, so they see their whole physical body on the in breath and out breath. The meditator NEVER tries to control their breath in any way! They just let body breathe naturally. They notice where body has tightness or tension in it. On the in breath notice when there is tightness in the muscle of the shoulders or back or hands, etc. And do the same on the out breath. This, is the most important part of the meditation and that is to relax those tight muscles consciously and do this on the in breath and the out breath. [Commentor: This is completely wrong. The Buddha did not say like this. What The Buddha said in Sutta is ''Sabba kaaya patisamvedii assassissaamiiti sikkhati''. Sabba means 'all' 'every part' 'every one'. Kaaya means 'combination' 'body' 'aggregate'. Sabba kaaya means 'all physical phenomena at body caused by breathing movement' So hair, nail, bone, skin and many other body parts are nothing to do with breathing. But the meditator has to attend all ruupa (photthabba-ruupa like hardness-softness, heat-cold or temperature, pressure-movement etc)when breathing. This is sabba kaaya. Patisamvedii = pati + sam + vedati ( vedii = feeling-action, vedati = feel-act) Pati derives from 'patigha'. It means 'touch' 'strike' 'tap' 'stroke' 'meet'. Sam means 'very well' 'evenly' 'rightly' 'truely'. So 'patisamvedii' means 'feeling well touching'. Assa means 'breathe' and 'issami' here means 'will'. So it means 'will breathe'. Iti means 'like' 'such as'. Sikkhati means 'practise' 'train'. So this sentence means 'practise by breathing feeling touching very well over all bodily ruupa caused by breathing movement'.] An interesting observation about the people in this country is, that they think the whole body starts at the neck then goes down, while from the neck up is a part of mind. [Commentor: This sound strange. Because 'sabba kaaya here is nothing to do with neck, head, body at all.] This is a wrong perception that needs to be addressed. The whole body starts at the top of the head and goes down from there. When noticing any tightness or tension, the first place that needs to be observed is in the head. [Commentor:These are not The Buddha's words in sutta. The Buddha did not say 'tightness in the head etc.] Every thought, every movement of mind begins with a subtle tightness or tension arising in the head. Meditators need to be aware of this and relax on the in breath and relax on the out breath. The meditator uses the breath as a reminder to relax. [Commentor: The Buddha did not say this. The Buddha did say that 'not to add to His teachings' 'not to remove from His teachings'.] Smiling Once the meditator begins to meditate, first softly close the eyes, then put a little smile in the mind, a little smile in the eyes, even though the eyes are closed, put a little smile on the lips and a smile in the heart. [Commentor: Aanaapaanasati sutta does not say any smile. It is not a smiling exercise.] Having a smile is a very important part of the meditation! There have been some studies done on the corners of the mouth. When the corners of the mouth go down, mind has a tendency to be heavy, rigid and unhappy. So at that time, mind tends to be sluggish and can become stiff and it moves very slowly. But when the corners of the mouth go up mind tends to be happy and have uplifting thoughts. Then mind tends to be lighter and more uid in watching. Joy is one of the enlightenment factors and smiling leads the meditator to this joy. [Commentor: Delibrate smile is not a factor of enlightenment.] Just look at a good Buddha image and see the smile. The artist is showing us that this should be a joyful experience. This is definitely a smiling meditation! [Commentor: This is self-assumption. There always have reasons while The Buddha smile. Images do not tell us any Dhamma. Dhamma is there in what The Buddha taught as Dhamma through out His lifespan.] On the in-breath, relax the tightness in the body [especially the head]... smile. On the out-breath... relax... smile... in-breath... relax... smile... outbreath... relax.. smile. [Commentor: This is very strange instruction. The Buddha did not say like this.] When relaxing feel mind kind of open up and expand, like a hand does when it opens up after it was holding onto something, then, at that time, mind becomes very calm and clear. It is like mind takes a tiny step down from where it was. This open calm mind has no thoughts in it, there is only a pure awareness, that is exceptionally alert and bright. The meditator stays with the breath and relaxing as much as possible, without grabbing onto or trying to control anything. Just observe, and relax. This is the simplest and most fun meditation to practice, that the author has ever seen or experienced. [Commentor: Buddha teachings are not the place of fun-seeking.] Arising thoughts Many people think that when they are "meditating", mind is not "supposed" to have thoughts in it. But this is not the case. Especially at the beginning mind will run all over the place and think about this and think about that. "AND" that is alright! Thoughts are not the enemy to push down, stop or fight with. Thoughts are just thoughts, so the meditator treats them simply as a small distraction and when the meditator notices that mind is thinking about this or that, they just let go of those thoughts, even if mind thinks that these thoughts are "important". [Commentor: The Buddha already instructed how to deal with thought. There are enemies thoughts like kaamacchandha nivarana or sensuous thoughts like attachments, byaapaada nivarana or aversive thoughts like hatred, dislike etc.] Let them go , relax the subtle tightness caused by the thoughts and softly redirect the attention back to the breath and relaxing again. At first the meditator may not notice that mind has gone away for a long time, but as soon as they have noticed they let go, relax and redirect mind back to the meditation object (the breath, relaxing and smiling). [Commentor: This is strange. Sutta do not say these.] There is no need to criticize or condemn oneself, at all. This is a part of training one's awareness and it can be a fun part of the meditation when not taken too seriously. It is alright to have fun and make the meditation a part of a game. Smile! [Commentor: Meditation is not a fun.] Body movement When the meditator begins to sit they must not move any part of there body at all. [Commentor: This is totally wrong. This is self-assumption. The statues do not indicate to sit like them. Whenthe meditator wants to move, heor she has to note that there arise a mind that want to move and then move. And when move just to clearly understand that there arise ruupa like movement and they pass away.] Please don't wiggle the fingers or toes, don't sway the body, don't scratch, don't shift the body, don't rub, don't change your posture, for any reason. [Commentor: When the beginning is wrong then the goal will be far away to achieve.] Please sit as still as a Buddha image or big rock that is stuck in the ground. You can move as much as they do. [Commentor: The Buddha did not teach like this.] When sitting like this there may be some sensations that arise, like an itch, a tickle in the throat, a sneeze, heat, vibration, or even pain. Please remember that you can't move at all! [Commentor: This is totally wrong.] So what to do? First, notice that the impulse to make the sensation go away is very strong and your mind will begin to think about it. These thoughts sound something like this, "I wish that this would stop!", "I hate this feeling", "Why doesn't this just go away and stop bothering me!", "I want this to leave me alone!", "But the instructions say that I can't move!", or "Oh, what torture!". The first thing that the meditator will observe is the thoughts about the sensation. The meditator will see that the more one tries to control the sensation with their thoughts, the bigger and more intense that sensation becomes. The instructions tell us, to let go of the thoughts and then to notice that there is a subtle tightness in the head and in one's mind, so then relax. [Commentor: These are never found in tipitaka or The Buddha's teachings.] Next the meditator will notice that there is a tight mental fist wrapped around that sensation, one lets the sensation be there without any resistance at all. The truth [dhamma] of the present moment is, when a sensation arises, 'It is there' ! If the meditator tries to fight that sensation, or they try to control that sensation in any way, or they try to make that sensation go away, as a result, it gets bigger and more intense. Allowing sensations to be The meditator learns through this training of themselves, to allow that sensation to be there. One learns to open up that tight mental fist and allow the sensation to be and do whatever it wants to do. It is only a sensation and it is alright for that sensation to be there. It has to be alright, why? Because that is the truth! Anytime one tries to fight with the truth or control the truth or make the truth be they way they want it to be, it causes more and more suffering. The meditator simply allows the sensation to be there and to float like a bubble floating in the wind. When the wind blows from one direction the bubble goes in the same direction and when the wind changes and blows in another direction the bubble goes in that direction. The bubble has no resistance at all it just oats around wherever it will. So in the same way, the meditator allows the sensation to float wherever it will. This meditation is about watching the movements of mind. Meditation is learning how to lovingly accept whatever it is that arises in the present moment and allow it to be there without any resistance at all. Now, the meditator notices a kind of subtle and sometimes not so subtle tightness or tension in their body, especially in the head, relax and smile. Now they feel mind relax and kind of expand then open up and next mind seems to take a little step down and it becomes calm. At that time, mind becomes very clear and alert, there are no thoughts in mind so it becomes pure. Now the meditator will please redirect their attention back to the breath, relax and smile again. Of course, the nature of these kinds of sensations is that they don't go away right away. So mind may get pulled back to that sensation again and the meditator does the same thing again. No matter how many times mind gets pulled away, the process is always the same. First let go of the thought... relax... smile, next let go of that tight mental fist wrapped around that sensation... relax... smile... softly redirect mind back to the breath, relaxing and smile... [Commentor: This is very very strange instruction. The Buddha did not say these and these are not in tipitaka.] Conclusion These are the bare-bones instructions for the Mindfulness of Breathing. These instructions when followed closely will work for every type of distraction that takes mind away from being in the present moment, relaxing and smiling. One thing to remember is that this is an all of the time meditation. When a person is walking from their house to the car or the car to their work place, what is their mind doing at that time? Thinking about this or that, liking this, disliking that and so on. This is the time to recognize that mind is wandering around and let go of the thoughts, relax, smile and redirect their attention back to the breath, relaxing and smiling again. Do this as many times during the day as can be remembered. This is how one practices the meditation all of the time. May this booklet be of some assistance to all who are searching the path of awakening. May all beings be successful in attaining Nibbana quickly and easily, in this lifetime. The author shares the merit of writing this booklet with his mother, father and all beings. It is customary after reading or sharing Dhamma with some else to Share Merit with all beings. So: May suffering ones, be suffering free And the fear-struck, fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, And may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, For the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and nagas of mighty power, Share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Lord Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu ... Sadhu... Sadhu... -ooOoo- [Commentor: May all beings whoever read false things see the false as false and understand real dhamma.]'' 47361 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 -Dear Htoo, I like your comments on the essay about anapanasati. One point: you wrote wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, ''Sabba kaaya patisamvedii assassissaamiiti sikkhati''. Sabba means 'all' 'every part' 'every one'. Kaaya means 'combination' 'body' 'aggregate'. Sabba kaaya means 'all physical phenomena at body caused by breathing movement' So hair, nail, bone, skin and many other body parts are nothing to do with breathing. But the meditator has to attend all ruupa (photthabba-ruupa like hardness-softness, heat-cold or temperature, pressure-movement etc)when breathing. This is sabba kaaya. _____________ I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. RobertK 47362 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:40am Subject: Withdrawal Wins Wisdom ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Withdrawal is the Third Mental Perfection: Withdrawal is Removal of Misery Withdrawal is Extraction of Disease. Withdrawal is Pulling out the splinter of Pain. Withdrawal is Retraction from Danger. Withdrawal is Renunciation of Ill. Withdrawal is Letting Go of what is Burning. Withdrawal is Turning Away from what is Sorrow. Withdrawal is Seclusion from what is Grief. Withdrawal is Clearing of Captivating Illusions. Withdrawal is Waking Up from Enthralling Trance. Withdrawal is Freedom from Enslaving Addiction. Withdrawal is Protection of what is Entrapping. Withdrawal is Giving Up what is Detrimental. Withdrawal is Discharge of what is Infested. Withdrawal is Breaking out of the Prison. Withdrawal is Release from all Suffering... Withdraw, as the man newly freed from prison does not at all wish himself back in prison! The Basket of Conduct Infatuated with lust, impassioned & obsessed, they are caught in their own self-created net, like a spider, which spins it's own web! Cutting through the Noble Friend withdraw & go free, Without longing, without greed, leaving all misery behind. Dhammapada 347 Blissful is solitude for the contented, learned & knowing True Dhamma. Blissful is harmlessness towards all breathing beings without exception. Blissful is freedom from all urge of sensual slavery whatsoever. Yet, supreme bliss, is the withdrawal from the abysmal conceit "I am"!' Udana - Inspiration: II - 1 The Bodhisatta once as the King Culasutasoma gave up his whole kingdom. Knowing this withdrawal to be an advantageous victory, he remembered: A mighty kingdom I possessed, as if it was dropped into my hands... Yet all this tantalizing luxury, I let fall without any even slight trace of longing nor clinging. This was my perfection of Withdrawal. Jataka no. 525 Lust, I say, is a great flood; a whirlpool sucking one down, a constant yearning, seeking a hold, continually active; difficult to cross is such morass of sensual desire... A sage does not deviate from good, but remains steady! A recluse stands on firm ground, when secluded; withdrawn from all, truly he is calmed & silenced! Having directly touched the Dhamma, he is independent. He behaves right & does not envy anyone anywhere... He who has left behind all pleasure arised from sensing, an attachment difficult to cut, is freed of both depression & longing, since he has cut across the flood, and is released. Sutta Nipata IV.15 Any being, that cools down all desires & greedy lusts, by being alert & ever aware of the inherent danger, by directing attention only to these disgusting aspects of all phenomena, such one withdraw from craving and thereby wears down & breaks the chains of this prison. Dhammapada 350 If one gains an infinite ease by leaving a minor pleasure, the clever one should swap the luminous for that trifling sensual pleasure, by withdrawing from this trivial boredom. Dhammapada 290 The one who has reached the sublime end all perfected, is fearless, freed of craving, desireless and unclinging... Such one has broken the chains of being and is certainly withdrawing into the final phase, wearing his last frame. Dhammapada 351 The household life is a cramped way, choked with dust. To leave it, is like coming out into the free space of open air! It is not easy for one who lives at home, to live the Noble life completely perfect and pure, bright as mother-of-pearl. Surely I will now shave off my hair & go forth into homelessness. Only Misery Arises. Only Misery Ceases. Nothing good is thus lost by withdrawing from it all...!!! Ehi Bhikkhus ;-) ______________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47363 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:47am Subject: July 9th - My Niece's Death Anniversary Im Memoriam Notice balancing_life Hi EveryOne Oh WoW! I simply can't keep up with 200+ messages in this group alone in a week, so please do forgive me, if i can't reply/answer at once. You see, last time i had an office to myself & i could surf the internet anytime of the day or answer at once, but now, with my boss's presence just behind me, through an transparent office door, i am unable to do anything other than work, unless it's after 6.00 pm, and it takes about an hour or so, to reach home and at my apartment, it will be quite dark, so i have leave the office straight after office hours, as my pet cat, Olivia will be hungry and i have to water the plants as well as to feed the fishes...too dark to see, if i were to stay back in the office. The reason i prefer to use our office computer is that i can use the internet for free, whereas if i were to use the computer at home, it will cost me about USD 1 cent per minute and during weekends, i use at least 2 hours or more, so i can't really afford, to surf the net at home. Ok, the reason i am writing now is that i have the file and sadly, my brother still has atttachment to his daughter...i thought he would have forgotten about it, since there is so much on his mind, these days. Here's how the notice reads...(as promised in my earlier email) "M, wherever you are & wherever you been reborn, May you be well & happy May you be free from harm & danger May you be free from mental suffering May you be free from physical suffering May you take care of yourself May you find true happiness To you, friendship means more than life May you forgive those who have treated you so unfairly". He has asked the memoriam notice to be advertised tomorrow, in an English National Daily & also another 2 National Chinese Dailies. Namaste & Peace, To EveryBody, :{ AliceInSadMemoriesLand P/S - Tomorrow, i will be going to the Mahindarama Temple, for the Puja Services till to the end, where they will do the "In Memory of" or "Transferance of Merits" chanting and after that, i have to go over to the mainland, to fetch my father to his mother-in-law's place to Penang, as it is her birthday. You see my mum passed away more than 27 years ago when i was 19 years old and after that he remarried my stepmum, whom we called "Auntie", recommended by my mum's own sister (my aunt), who is 20 years his junior, so the thing is that his mother-in-law is almost the same age as my father, 80+ years old...sigh...each time i see my father, i also get so depressed as i feel so hopeless & guilty as well, when i see him doddering about with his walking stick...as we live so far apart, that i only see him about once a month or only when i have official duties at my Prai HQ office, which is just opposite my father's house. Before i go, i would like to express my deepest condolences, to the bereaved families, of those bomb-blast victims in London...how vicious those terrorists are, but according to the news, the AlQaeda group said that they were seeking revenge for the war in Iraq & Afghanistan, started by President Bush, but vetoed openly by Prime Minister Tony Blair & other allied countries...every of those countries, have now tightened their national security. When i heard the news, i suddenly remembered, my other niece by my eldest brother, who was the cream of the crop in her studies, that the Singaporean Government sponsored her to a University in England and her younger sister, went last month to visit her for a holiday, before coming back together with her...and when i phoned them last evening, her sister answered that luckily, they both just touched down in Singapore Changi Airport, and have just reached home. Ok, gotto go...cya all on Sunday, if i can make it, that is. Dated : 8th July 2005 Day : Friday Time : 3.48 pm PPS - My boss is out for the moment & won't be back until much later. :} AliceInWhenTheKittyIsAwayLand 47364 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:19am Subject: Nimitta: Same sign with whatever object ... bhikkhu_ekamuni > Tep: Please explain the sign of calm and the sign of concentration, > resulting in onepointedness, for the 32 objects The signs of calm and concentration are not different when contemplating these 32 or any other objects (except visual): The 'sign' functions like this: When 'accidentally' absorbed momentarily, one might note the mental characteristics of this fleeting state and think "Ohhh: how about this, what a calm, what a focus..." This remembrance is itself the 'sign', which one then can direct back to, return to, search and reach, since now one knows what to look out after. The 'sign' is like 'a key', which when you find it (again), can open the door (again) to unified absorption. Or the 'sign' is like a way you have been on before & therefore can follow again to the same destination: absorption. There is these 8 stages during breathing meditation: 1: Counting the breaths in-out: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 to 10 & then 1-1, again etc. 2: Connecting the breaths in-out: 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 to 10 & then 1-2, again etc. 3: Touching the steady state. (momentarily, repeatedly) 4: Fixing the steady state. (anchoring, and thus prolonging) 5: Observing the steady state. (now steadily absorbed) 6: Turning away (to insight object: Impermanence, Fading, etc.) 7: Purifying and refining this steady state. 8: Reviewing it after emerging from absorption. The beginner reach stage 1-3 for a long time. When having touched absorption momentarily and repeatedly the job is to fix it, & stabilize it... This is where the skill in directing 'back' to this same experience, same 'sign' as when one first 'entered', since this itself triggers 'entry' again and again with increasing facility... It is like the Pavlows dogs, which was conditioned by hearing a bell when fed, to later salivate only when hearing the bell. So also the meditator: He couple or conditions the experience or remembrance of the 'sign' to entry into absorption. Later he just need to direct mind back to remembering the sign then he 'automatically enters absorption, like the dogs 'automatically salivated when hearing the bell. So the sign is the same whatever one meditates on both before and after (if ever) entry into a unified state. : - ] 47365 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I appreciate what you wrote : "In no way does a consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness rooted in greed is the experience of greed, not some object." What about a consciousness rooted in dosa ? Does it know an object? Then you stated, "It is my contention that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of desire." Larry, there are more about the "object of desire" in DN 22. "And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. "And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world... sota, .., mano; rupa, ...,dhamma; cakkhuvinnana, ..., manovinnana; cakkhusamphasso, ..., manosamphasso; cakkhusamphassja vedana, ..., manosamphassja vedana; rupasancetana ,..., dhammasancetana; rupatanha,..., dhammtanha; rupavitakko, ..., dhammavitakko; rupavicar,...,dhammavicaro is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells." Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: > the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". > > Hi Sarah, > >(snipped) > As for the object of greed, a careful reading of the 'craving' section > on dependent origination in Vism. (Vism.XII,233 fol.) shows that craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. It is my contention that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of desire. We can say dependent on contact feeling arises and dependent on feeling, craving; but what I am trying to get at is what we "think of" as the object of desire, what we say we want or like, is a > conceptualization of the formation of visible object, feeling, latent > tendency and probably many other factors as well. It is good to know > that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is > fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like arises > conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes > something is logic, not reality. > > Larry 47366 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:21am Subject: The Buddha on Divine Infinite Friendliness ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Speech of the Buddha on Friendliness: What should the clever one advantageously do To attain This State called Peace, is this: He should be intelligent, straight, honest, Humble, gentle and never proud, Contented, and easy to support, Not busy, careful, and silenced. In abilities & senses, cautious, & modest, Not flattering families nor be demanding. He should do no even minor thing at all, That other wise men might criticize. Then he should think: May all beings be joyous and safe! Let every creature's mind rejoice. Whatever breathing beings there are, No matter whether feeble or firm, With none excepted, whether long; Tall, big, medium, short or small; Whether seen or unseen, visible or not; Whether living far or near, here or there; Whether existing or just about to become; Let every living being's mind be jubilant!!! Let none kill or another one undo, Nor harm anyone anywhere at all ... Let none wish another any ill, neither From provocation nor by evil revenge. Thus, as a mother with her own life Might guard her son, her only child, thus Should he maintain an infinite friendliness; for every living being, in sympathy for this entire universe, unlimited, endless & vast! Above, below, and all around, unimpeded, without any hatred, without any enemies! Whether standing, walking, seated or lying down while slumbering, he should always maintain such awareness of gentle kindness... This is the Divine Dwelling here, they say. He that do not traffic with the various views, Perfected in seeing what is right & wrong, Purged of lust for sense-pleasures, he will surely not come back here to any womb... Source: Minor Readings and the Illustrator http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130231 __________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47367 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Long time no see. Htoo: There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned dhamma. Tep: Are you saying that ultimate realities are real ultimately? Are they not real initially? Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these instructions are not fully understood and there always are misinterpretations. Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is best, in general? It is clear that understanding comes first for every action, if a good result is expected. But does right understanding always follow learning? Is there a "right learning"? What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the instructions given by another being, who may not exist ultimately :>)). Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or > consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do > not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned > dhamma. > > There is no man, woman, human being, deva in ultimate sense. There is > no person in ultimate sense. Ultimate realities are not difficult to > see and equally they are hard to see. This will depend on individual. > > To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all > possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not > understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. > > There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these > instructions are not fully understood and there always are > misinterpretations. > 47368 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:47am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, I like your comments on the essay about anapanasati. One point: you wrote wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > ''Sabba kaaya patisamvedii assassissaamiiti sikkhati''. > > Sabba means 'all' 'every part' 'every one'. > Kaaya means 'combination' 'body' 'aggregate'. > Sabba kaaya means 'all physical phenomena at body caused by breathing > movement' > So hair, nail, bone, skin and many other body parts are nothing to > do with breathing. But the meditator has to attend all ruupa > (photthabba-ruupa like hardness-softness, heat-cold or temperature, > pressure-movement etc)when breathing. This is sabba kaaya. _____________ I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Nina will also give some suggestion on kaaya here, I hope. Mahaasatipatthaana is to do with '5 khandhas'. 1. kaayaanupassanaa or 'contemplation on bodily-ruupas' is for understanding on rupakkhandha or material aggregates. 2. vedanaanupassana or 'contemplation on feeling' is for understanding on vedanakkhandha or feeling aggregates. 3. cittaanupassana or 'contemplation on consciousness' is for understanding on vinnaanakkhandha or 'consciousness aggregates'. 4. dhammaanupassana or 'contemplation on dhamma' is for understanind on sannakkhandha or 'perception aggregates' and understing on sankhaarakkhandha or 'formation aggregates'. And also all other khandhas or aggregates and their cessations. It is kaayanupassana. So it mainly describes on ruupa. There are mental bodies that can be directed in vedanaanupassana, citta- anupassana and dhammaanupassana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47369 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:10am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path > instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > instructions given by another being, who may not exist ultimately :>)). > Dear Tep, Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. RobertK 47370 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Tep, How are you? I have just been busy. Initially I did not intend to reply in such way because it would be time-consuming. But when I re- thought it would be beneficial for readers. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - Long time no see. Htoo: There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned dhamma. Tep: Are you saying that ultimate realities are real ultimately? Are they not real initially? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) You already know. Why bother such meaning on ultimate realities? If argumentation is a good thing then this can be argued like this. They were initially not real for those who could not see them as they are. But for those who see things as they really are see them real ultimately. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep quote: Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these instructions are not fully understood and there always are misinterpretations. & Tep wrote: Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is best, in general? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are pedagogic matter. 1. transferred wisdom or transferred knolwedge is given by some outside individuals in many different ways like 'speech' 'talk' 'text' 'books' 'through teaching'. 2. self-discovered wisdom or knowledge arise within individual and this arising of knowledge is not the result of others' teaching. Example; No one taught 'Issac Newton' Newton's laws. 3. self-realized wisdom or knowledge only arise within indiviudal when there are conditions. I think there is no 'the best way to learn'. Even people who were close to arahats did not know that he was and arahat. People had to know only after parinibbana of that arahat as evidenced by miracle relics. If such high beings are nominated then people will go there for their profit whatever that profit is economical or spiritual or anything. So there is no best way in learing even though pedagogic people would argue on this. Dhamma only arise when there are conditions for them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: It is clear that understanding comes first for every action, if a good result is expected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was thinking on 'expectation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: But does right understanding always follow learning? Is there a "right learning"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are matters of wording. Learning is experiencing at least. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path instructions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Study repeatedly through 1. hearing on others' teachings 2. reading and reflecting on others' teachings 3. think over again and again what have been learned 4. ask questions to those who teach, to those who are wise etc 5. discuss on dhamma issues whenever possible 6. bear all learned things not to lose 7. speak to others about what have been learned 8. train others in the way that they have experienced. Example: 1. What is ruupa? a) listen to someone's explanation b) search and read in texts accessible c) think out d) feel it with own mind e) experience it ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: I assume that there is a being initially to learn the instructions given by another being, who may not exist ultimately :>)). Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been posted here. Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. 1. Did The Buddha exist? 2. Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? 3. Do Dhamma exist? 4. Did and do arahats exist? 5. Did I exist? 6. Do I exist? 7. Will I be there in the future? I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there in the screen for your mind. a) things on the screen 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) 3. gandhaarammana (smell) 4. rasaarammana (taste) 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) b) the screen watcher (your mind) 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) Do these exist? Did they exist? Will they exist? Do Tep exist? Did Tep exist? Will Tep exist? 1. Is ruupaarammana nicca or anicca? 2. Is sadda 7. Is cakkhuvinnaana nicca or anicca? 8. Is sota - - 12. Is manovinnaana cittas nicca or anicca? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47371 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (432) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Akusala kamma have been talked. Kaama kusala kamma have also been discussed. There are 8 mahaakusala cittas. When they arise they generate 8 kaama kusala kamma. Their effects are 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas and 8 sahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. This is just general description. When these kamma are committed there are different degree of invlovement of cetana. That is there are different kamma when they are being committed. They are ukkattha kamma and omaka kamma. Ukkattha kamma are greater kamma and omaka kamma are lesser kamma. Ukkattha kamma is much more powerful in terms of effects thay give rise to. Ukkattha kamma are committed with full intention. So there is no need to be prompted. That is when offering is done, that offering is done with full intention to offer and there is no one who prompts to offer. Such offering generates ukkattha kamma. When one is advised to offer or to do some kusala things prompted by other or even by himself or herself that kamma is a bit weaker than ukkattha kamma. There is a hierarchy kusala kamma. 1. tihetuka ukkattha kamma 2. tihetuka omaka kamma 3. dvihetuka ukkattha kamma 4. dvihetuka omaka kamma Kusala kamma are committed when 8 mahaakusala cittas arise. There are 4 tihetuka cittas and 4 dvihetuka cittas. Each 4 has 2 ukkattha and 2 omaka implications. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47372 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:49am Subject: Dhammaanupassana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 dhammanupassana or 108 contemplation on dhamma. So this can be used in bead-counting or bead-telling even though this may not be the right thing to do. But at least this will help consolidating the map. Dhammanupassana 1. 25 contemplation on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplation on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplation on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplation on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplation on Noble Truth (sacca) --- 108 contemplations There is also a way to do bead-counting or bead-telling. Again this is not the right way. But at least this practice may help consolidatingthe map. That way is bead-counting or bead-telling on 1080 contemplations on dhamma. a) 216 contemplation on the body or 'kaayaanupassana' b) 30 contemplation on feeling or 'vedananupassana' c) 51 contemplation on consciousness or 'cittanupassana' d) 108 contemplation on dhamma or 'dhammanupassana' The method is 1. 9 Buddha guna ( Araham, Sammasambuddho, etc. ) 2. 216 kayanupassana 3. 9 Buddha guna ( Araham, Sammasambuddho, etc.) 4. 30 vedananupassana 5. 9 Buddha guna 6. 51 cittanupassana 7. 9 Buddha guna 8. 108 dhammanupassana 9. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 10. 216 kayanupassana (repeat) 11. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 12. 30 vedananupassana(repeat) 13. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 14. 51 cittanupassana(repeat) 15. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 16. 108 dhammanupassana(repeat) 17. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 18. 99 saccanupassana(repeat) ---- 1080 So there will be 10 rounds of 108-beaded string and this will help contemplating on mahasatipatthana twice each cycle along with contemplation on Buddha guna or attributes of The Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47373 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? nilovg Dear Rob K, Though kaya can also refer to the mental body, cetasikas, I think in this context we have to think of rupas. The four tetrads of anapanasati which is included in mindfulness of body, pertain successively to seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, citta in citta and dhamma in dhamma. This is all explained in the Visuddhimagga. Nina. op 08-07-2005 13:17 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: > I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental > body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. > RobertK 47374 From: nina Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:35am Subject: ongoing mindfulness. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your posts. I do not have anything to add, but I am wondering about one point. You mention in another post certain conditions for the development of paññaa, and among them siila and ongoing mindfulness. I may have misunderstood you, do you mean continuous mindfulness? As a preliminary condition? For what stage of paññaa? And mindfulness of what? Mindfulness, as I see it, has an object. Mindfulness of the level of satipatthana is mindfulness of nama or rupa. There are other levels, it accompanies each kusala citta and it is non-forgetful of kusala. I ask, because I think these are important points. Nina. 47375 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 8:08am Subject: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta upasaka_howard Hi, all - As I understand it, the commentaries describe a citta as passing through three consecutive phases of arising, maintaining, and declining. Exactly what changes occurring in the citta distinguish these stages? Is it a matter of increasing of intensity from a zero level, up to a maximum that is maintained for a while, and then followed by a decreasing of intensity back to the zero level? Also, whatever changes, whether it be intensity or something else, are all the cetasikas associated with the citta correspondingly varying? So as not to be laying a trap for you good folks with the preceding questions, let me be "up front" in saying that something that changes cannot be considered a "reality", can it? It seems to me that this commentarial notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47376 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] ongoing mindfulness. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/8/05 2:35:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thank you for your posts. I do not have anything to add, but I am wondering about one point. You mention in another post certain conditions for the development of paññaa, and among them siila and ongoing mindfulness. I may have misunderstood you, do you mean continuous mindfulness? --------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I didn't mean that. I was speaking informally and referring to a practice of being consistently mindful of what is happening at "ordinary times" as opposed to specifically during "formal meditation" periods. Mindfulness is an enlightenment factor, but I don't think that it needs to be present at every moment. -------------------------------------------- As a preliminary condition? For what stage of paññaa? And mindfulness of what? Mindfulness, as I see it, has an object. Mindfulness of the level of satipatthana is mindfulness of nama or rupa. There are other levels, it accompanies each kusala citta and it is non-forgetful of kusala. I ask, because I think these are important points. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope what I said above sufficiently clarifies what I had in mind, Nina. ------------------------------------------ Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47377 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - Thank you for the reply -- I understand and agree with what you wrote below. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path > > instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > > instructions given by another being, who may not exist > ultimately :>)). > > > > > Dear Tep, > Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. > RobertK 47378 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:20am Subject: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? ksheri3 Hi group, an interesting phrase came up in Nina's e-book: Part I, chapter 2, p.2: "there is no moment without feeling When there is not pleasant feeling or nupleasant feeling, there is indifferent feeling. It is difficult to know what indifferent feeling is. So long as we cannot distinguish nama from rupa we cannot know precisely the characteristic of feeling and thus we cannot know indifferent feeling either." No chance of ever being aloof from feeling. Lets say body-consciousness. Now lets move to p.3 "...This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense." Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will ask: is sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy my eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not impact my body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? What about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? cool thoughts huh? Oh don't worry in my youth while working sex magik I was refered to as THE BRACKET CREEP. Maybe a good place to find my defiintion would be The Illuminatis Triology the chapter with the heading THE SNAFU PRINCIPLE. I am defined below it in the piece about THE DAMNED THING. toodles, colette 47379 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:27pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. > > In this regard, the Buddha is not prescriptive. He does not say "you > should do this or that". He does say "if you want to achieve this > goal, do this and that" and leaves it to the hearer what they do with it. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Hah! No prescription! ;-) Anyone who wouldn't understand the prescription > he was dispensing had just too much dust in his eyes to bother with! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------- > Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange notion, isn't it ? Kind Regards Herman 47380 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, <...> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > op 07-07-2005 20:47 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > In her paper, "Introduction" p.2, "The > > cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment > > of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas arise each moment > > and then they fall away immediately." I can tentatively accept that > > however, in the mind, there must be a residue, something left behind > > after the citta has fallen since it is the citta's cessation that > > causes the cessation of the cetasika. > ------- > N: Each citta with its accompanying cetasikas arises, experience an object > and then fall away together. Each citta that falls away is succeeded by a > next citta, without there being an interval. This goes on throughout life > and from life to life. colette: I can see that you're attempting to manifest in the mind of the neophyte, aspirant, the fundamentals of citta in the above statement. This is the Stream of Consciousness. In the case of the operative Meditator the necessity for this focus is ABSOLUTE. Here we go girls & boys: ----------------------- > Seeing is one citta, and thinking about what is seen is another one, hearing > is one citta and thinking about what is heard is another citta. colette: True, however you are apperently trying to asert that the eye can only see a single sight, the ear can only hear a single sound, etc. The mind has the choice to DISCRIMINATE AGAINST AND FOR therefore when you say "seeing is one citta" you should be making that statement more clear to the neophyte by reminding them of the difficulty involved here since the eye sees more than a single sight. Obviously we can debate this over and over and over... but I do not need 'a priori' knowledge to know that if I beat my head against a brick wall it will then cause pain. That wall exists in you Nina and I know that it is a waste of my valuable time on this planet in this incarnation, etc, to bother with a triffle you will refuse to relingquish possession of and that possesses you: the more you want it the more it wants you thus making your suffering all the more greater and your confusion all the more deeper and profound. <...> ----------------------------------- It seems > that we can see and hear at the same time, but in fact only one citta arises > at a time and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the > same time, and this shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. > You entered this world with certain tendencies, abilities, inclinations, > different from other people. This was because you accumulated such > tendencies in the past. <...> > Also in this life you react in a certain way to what > you experience, but the citta and cetasikas fall away. Since each citta is > succeeded by a next one such tendencies are carried on to the next citta, > and so on, even from life to life. colette: true but since my brain cells are not programmed the same as your brain cells and they are not lined up in the same order as would numbers on a balance sheet or soldiers in the British Army once called Red Coats, then I have the unequivicable right to manifest something other. <...> You remember former experiences, though > these have fallen away. This is because the remembrance of these experiences > is carried on from one citta to the next. colette: c'mon lets not be contradictory here. <..> You can't say that the citta and cetasika fall away and then say that they are carried to the next citta. Since I think I made my point rather clear by using the wagon wheel marks in the earth as a form of meditation: the marks are left upon the earth of the path taken, citta = wagon. --------------------- What we learn is never lost, it is > accumulated in the citta. colette: not the way I read your material so far. the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta is of no value to the knowledge once it has been learned. --------------------- Wholesome tendencies and unwholesome tendencies colette: <...>You keep talking about these things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in since the begining of time/history. ---------------------------------- > are accumulated and these condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala > citta. > We speak in conventional language about different characters, but in reality > these are accumulated tendencies in each citta. It is not a residu that > stays the same, colette: I'm not talking about the residu that remains the same, the path the thought or enlightenment took thru the synapses is marked, traversed, and therefore will be easier to traverse the second, third, fourth, etc. <...> -------------------- it is subject to change. New experiences and tendencies are > accumulated at each moment. That is why understanding can grow and even > develop to supramundane paññaa. > Nina. No offense taken, just as I hope you do not take offense at my words which are rather straigh forward. toodles, colette 47381 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Vism.XIV,171 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 171. Herein, (xlv) by its means they hate, or it itself hates, or it is just mere hating, thus it is 'hate' (dosa). It has the characteristic of savageness, like a provoked snake. Its function is to spread, like a drop of poison, or its function is to burn up its own support, like a forest fire. It is manifested as persecuting (duusana), like an enemy who has got his chance. Its proximate cause is the grounds for annoyance (see A.v,150). It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with poison. 47382 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/8/05 6:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange notion, isn't it ? ============================ Well said, Herman! And the Buddha has been described as the great physician! Right? Also, the 4 noble truths have often been likened to a physician's dealing with an illness: diagnosis (dukkha), cause (tanha/upadana), prognosis (nibbana), and course of treatment (magga). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47383 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi Htoo, You write many interesting things. If you feel inclined, I would certainly appreciate your time and effort to further examine some of these things. > > Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn > dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If > dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path > may be followed. > > There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these > instructions are not fully understood and there always are > misinterpretations. > > & Tep wrote: > > Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible > way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is > best, in general? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > These are pedagogic matter. > > 1. transferred wisdom or transferred knolwedge is given by some > outside individuals in many different ways like 'speech' 'talk' > 'text' 'books' 'through teaching'. > > 2. self-discovered wisdom or knowledge arise within individual and > this arising of knowledge is not the result of others' teaching. > Example; No one taught 'Issac Newton' Newton's laws. > > 3. self-realized wisdom or knowledge only arise within indiviudal > when there are conditions. > === A] I wonder if you would allow for another category of transferred knowledge. Sexual reproduction. Babies, for short. In a healthy baby there is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling. These senses are not self-discovered, they are not taught, but they are there as another, new instance of "seeing knowing visible object", "hearing knowing audible object" and so on. B] I wonder, too, to what extent transferred knowledge (teaching / learning) is a genuine category of knowing. I think there is often confusion between what is learnt and what is known. A silly medium - sized example follows. I would be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Little Johny comes home from school, and his Dad asks him "What do you know today that you didn't know yesterday". If Johny were to say "I know that there are 4 chambers in the heart" he would have misunderstood what knowing that means. If he instead would have said "The teacher teaches that there are 4 chambers in the heart" Johny would have shown wisdom beyond his years. Likewise little Colette. If she tells Mum that she now knows how to catch a ball, because that's what she did in sport, she'd be right. But if it was raining that day, and the teacher only explained the theory of catching a ball, Colette cannot say she knows how to catch a ball. > Htoo: > > I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there > in the screen for your mind. > > a) things on the screen > > 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) > 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) > 3. gandhaarammana (smell) > 4. rasaarammana (taste) > 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) > 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) What about the following? Seeing the things on the screen of the mind is equal to the act of differentiating them, abstracting them. Without an act, a grasping, a doing, none of these are apparent. > > b) the screen watcher (your mind) > > 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) > 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) > 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) > 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) > 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) > 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) The separation of experience into namas and rupas is a conceptual activity. Do namas exist? Not without rupas. Do rupas exist? Not without namas. Are they ultimates? Only as ultimate as the act of separating what is not separate. > > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. > I agree with you. And repeated reflection on any model of dhamma will highlight that a model is only a model. A model of reality is only as good as it allows one to describe and predict how reality unfolds. Some useful questions to ask in relation to any model are "Which observed phenomena does it fail to explain?" and "Which phenomena does it decribe or predict which remain unobserved or are unobservable?" Kind Regards Herman > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47384 From: "egberdina" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:17pm Subject: Re: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? egberdina Hi Colette, > "...This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is > the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense." > > Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will ask: is > sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy my > eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not impact my > body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? What > about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? > I think you're making very worthwhile points here. You would have the vast majority of modern cognitive science on your side if you were to say that hearing is effectively a development of body sense. Hearing starts as the converting of vibrations into elctrical pulses, which is what happens all over your body, albeit in a much less specialised way. And more often than not, the hearing of low frequencies such as bass through a nice sub-woofer is actually the rattling of your rib cage. Don't play your Studio Tan too loud now , hear :-) Kind Regards Herman 47385 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:18pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm philofillet Hi Herman, Howard and all Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/8/05 6:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange > notion, isn't it ? > ============================ > Well said, Herman! And the Buddha has been described as the great > physician! Right? Also, the 4 noble truths have often been likened to a physician's > dealing with an illness: diagnosis (dukkha), cause (tanha/upadana), prognosis > (nibbana), and course of treatment (magga). 47386 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/8/05 6:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange > notion, isn't it ? > ============================ > Well said, Herman! And the Buddha has been described as the great > physician! Right? Hi Howard and Herman I'm being a bit naughty here so apologies in advance!! If doctors who didn't truly understand the medical condition before them limited themselves to describing the condition instead of prescribing a treatment, the "unfavourable medical outcome" statistics might be a whole lot more palatable. (-: A great physician knows when NOT to treat as much as he knows when to treat. He *understands* the unfolding process and actions flow from that understanding. Understanding comes first. Where have I heard that before? Best wishes Andrew T 47387 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi RobertK, It is good to see that you're still around :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path > > instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > > instructions given by another being, who may not exist > ultimately :>)). > > > > > Dear Tep, > Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. I accept that it is impossible to capture reality with language, but I have some questions. 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, and no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that where" of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self (not as agent) and other, or self and not-self. 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels this arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? Kind Regards Herman 47388 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/8/05 9:19:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Herman, Howard and all Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. Metta, Phil ======================= That's a prescription in the same sense as "Get a bachelor's degree" is. For certain purposes it is required, but it cannot be directly done. For a high school graduate, to attain that goal, the prior goals of applying to a college, being accepted, and paying tuition need to be attained. For infants, far more is prescribed. For all achievable goals, however, there are sequences of directly attainable prescribed goals . For an analogy with regard to prescriptions, perhaps think of "Gain stream entry" as "Get a high school degree", think of "Gain once-returnership (Is that a word?!! ;-) as "Get a bachelor's degree", think of "Gain non-returnership" as "Get a master's degree", and think of "Gain arahanthood" as "Get a doctorate". At any stage, there are directly achievable prescribed actions, but order is essential, and no prescribed action can be taken uintil the conditions for taking that action have been satisfied. We start where we are, and do what we can. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47389 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/8/05 9:54:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Hi Howard and Herman I'm being a bit naughty here so apologies in advance!! If doctors who didn't truly understand the medical condition before them limited themselves to describing the condition instead of prescribing a treatment, the "unfavourable medical outcome" statistics might be a whole lot more palatable. (-: A great physician knows when NOT to treat as much as he knows when to treat. He *understands* the unfolding process and actions flow from that understanding. Understanding comes first. Where have I heard that before? Best wishes Andrew T ========================== The Buddha knew first hand what was what. What books did he study? (Yeah, I know, there was Dipankara Buddha! ;-) Of course, understanding comes first, but the most important understanding is that of WHAT TO DO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47390 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? rjkjp1 Dear Colette, All rupas arise in groups. Sound(sadda) rupa must come togther with other rupas- including pathavi(hardness). When hearing only the element of sadda is known. However,pathavi- present in the same group as the sound- is contacting the body base at the same time and thus can impact(and even damage) the physical area supporting the ear base. Robertk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi group, > > an interesting phrase came up in Nina's e-book: > > Part I, chapter 2, p.2: > > "there is no moment without feeling When there is not pleasant feeling > or nupleasant feeling, there is indifferent feeling. It is difficult to > know what indifferent feeling is. So long as we cannot distinguish nama > from rupa we cannot know precisely the characteristic of feeling and > thus we cannot know indifferent feeling either." > > No chance of ever being aloof from feeling. Lets say body- consciousness. > > Now lets move to p.3 > > "...This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is > the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense." > > Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will ask: is > sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy my > eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not impact my > body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? What > about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? > > cool thoughts huh? Oh don't worry in my youth while working sex magik I > was refered to as THE BRACKET CREEP. Maybe a good place to find my > defiintion would be The Illuminatis Triology the chapter with the > heading THE SNAFU PRINCIPLE. I am defined below it in the piece about > THE DAMNED THING. > > toodles, > colette 47391 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:32pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 Dear Herman, Thanks for your questions, I reply after each one: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >> > > > Robert: Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an > > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live > > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who > > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Herman: I accept that it is impossible to capture reality with language, but I > have some questions. > > 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? __________________ We is a concept used to describe the different streams of khandhas. __________________________________________- > > 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, and > no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that where" > of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self (not as > agent) and other, or self and not-self. _______________ Hearing occurs at the ear base, seeing at the eye base, smelling at the nose base, thining at the mind base etc. Not sure about your question about distinguishing self or not-self? > _______________________________ > 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all > there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels this > arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of > conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? > > Kind Regards ____________ The conditions are themselves khandhas. Sankhara khandha includes tanha (desire)and upadana (graspaing)and avijja(ignorance):these are the factors that spin the wheel of dependent origination. Please ask if you want more clarification, this is an important topic. RobertK > > > Herman 47392 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Re: Nimitta: Same sign with whatever object ... buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita (and all )- Thank you for being kind enough to answer my question in details. > > Tep: Please explain the sign of calm and the sign of concentration, > > resulting in onepointedness, for the 32 objects. > Ven. S : > The signs of calm and concentration are not different when > contemplating these 32 or any other objects (except visual): > > The 'sign' functions like this: > When 'accidentally' absorbed momentarily, one might > note the mental characteristics of this fleeting state and > think "Ohhh: how about this, what a calm, what a focus..." > > This remembrance is itself the 'sign', which one then can > direct back to, return to, search and reach, since now one > knows what to look out after. The 'sign' is like 'a key', which > when you find it (again), can open the door (again) to unified > absorption. Or the 'sign' is like a way you have been on before > & therefore can follow again to the same destination: absorption. > > There is these 8 stages during breathing meditation: > 1: Counting the breaths in-out: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 to 10 & then 1-1, again etc. > 2: Connecting the breaths in-out: 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 to 10 & then 1-2, again etc. > 3: Touching the steady state. (momentarily, repeatedly) > 4: Fixing the steady state. (anchoring, and thus prolonging) > 5: Observing the steady state. (now steadily absorbed) > 6: Turning away (to insight object: Impermanence, Fading, etc.) > 7: Purifying and refining this steady state. > 8: Reviewing it after emerging from absorption. > > The beginner reach stage 1-3 for a long time. > When having touched absorption momentarily > and repeatedly the job is to fix it, & stabilize it... > This is where the skill in directing 'back' to this > same experience, same 'sign' as when one first > 'entered', since this itself triggers 'entry' again > and again with increasing facility... > Tep: I am not sure I clearly understand your explanation of the 'sign' and the meditation procedure above. Is it correct to say that the above 8-stage breathing meditation procedure is a samatha bhavana for achieving absorbtion? Does "steady state" in Step 5 mean a jhana state, say cognizance without hindrances and with no vitakka & vicara? Is the sign, which is the "remembrance" of the previously learned absorbtion, a perception(sanna) -- a memory? > Ven. S : > It is like the Pavlows dogs, which was conditioned > by hearing a bell when fed, to later salivate only > when hearing the bell. > > So also the meditator: He couple or conditions > the experience or remembrance of the 'sign' > to entry into absorption. Later he just need to > direct mind back to remembering the sign then > he 'automatically enters absorption, like the dogs > 'automatically salivated when hearing the bell. > > So the sign is the same whatever one meditates on > both before and after (if ever) entry into a unified > state. > Tep: Once the meditator has learned the sign, how should he condition it to occur again next time to lead him to absorbtion? I don't understand "he just need to direct mind back to remembering the sign". Is it necessary that he always starts with stage1 every time? "Turning away" in stage 6 is switching ("emerging from absorption") to vipassana. But what is the object the meditator contemplates the charateristics of? Respectfully, Tep =========== 47393 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 10:21pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > The Buddha knew first hand what was what. What books did he study? (Yeah, > I know, there was Dipankara Buddha! ;-) > Of course, understanding comes first, but the most important > understanding is that of WHAT TO DO. Hi Howard I detect a difference of emphasis. To me, the idea of "WHAT TO DO" is saturated with a concept of self/doer. Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. Dhamma is not about WHAT TO DO but HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN. Understanding of the latter helps condition subsequent thoughts, speech and actions and no "doer" can stand in its path and declare "Let this not be!" You and Herman take the analogy of the Great Physician too far. Best wishes Andrew T 47394 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Kom's ordination news and message... sarahprocter... message from Kom, who'll soon be ordaining (July 17th at the Marble Temple in Bangkok, I believe), before moving to a temple in the north in Chengrai. S. =============================== Hi Jon, It's happenning and fortunately, other people are taking care of all the details. My only words to others on DSG are, Dhamma is the greatest blessing in my life - I wish you all study the texts, have wise considerations, follow the teachings with wisdom, and may you all reach where you want to be. If I have done anything to offend anybody, please do forgive me, and I promise I won't (or will try not to) do it again... My dhamma name is something like Tikkapanno, meaning sharp panna, which goes along with my Thai name, which means a sharp knife. The date you travel I think will be during vassa, so my being in Chiangrai as a monk won't help :-). Maybe next time... Thanks again for the jataka you got me - I found many joy with the two books I have (partly) read.... kom On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:53:46 +0800, "Jonothan Abbott" said: > Hi Kom > > How are your ordination plans going? <....> 47395 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:37pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 244 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (r) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] As we have seen, uddhacca accompanies each akusala citta, it accompanies lobha-múla-citta, dosa-múla-citta and moha-múlacitta. There are two types of moha-múla-citta, one is associated with doubt and one is associated with restlessness. The fact that one type of moha-múla-citta is called “associated with restlessness”, uddhacca-sampayutta, does not mean that restlessness does not arise with the type of moha-múla-citta which is associated with doubt. The second type of moha-múla-citta is called “associated with restlessness” in order to differentiate it from the first type of moha-múla-citta which is associated with doubt. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47396 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------------ H: > Okay. Well, we disagree on this, unless I just don't get what you mean by "formal practice". ------------------ I mean anything done in the belief that the Buddha's teaching can be practised in the future - rather than in the present one billionth of a second. --------------------------------------- H: > Ken, I assure you that the practice needed for "entering" jhanas does not come naturally. In fact, the Dhamma doesn't come naturally at all. It goes against the stream, against the flow, against the grain. What comes "naturally" for the most part is following our cravings, being led around by the nose by the defilements. -------------------------------------- It is panna that goes against the flow, and panna is always accompanied by joy or equanimity. -------------------- <. . .> H:> So, are you advocating that nobody except adepts should go forth, for example? -------------------- I take your point, and I should modify the example I gave. Some people *regardless of whether they are wise or not so wise* are suited to developing insight while living the homeless life. Others are more suited to the household life. So I should simply have said, a person to whom the homeless life is unnatural should not take it up in the expectation it will make him wise. ------------- KH: > > *anything* done with the idea of gaining something for oneself (even gaining something wholesome) is done for the wrong reason. ......... H: > So don't eat, Ken, don't sleep, and don't take medicine. ;-) Oh, yes - also don't work. ------------- I would be better advised to continue my normal, law-abiding daily- life, but to know that akusala is different from kusala, lobha is different from alobha, and so on. --------------------------- H: > Okay. But my question remains: Are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? --------------------------- We are of the opinion - based on our Dhamma studies - that attachment to detachment (and attachment to the idea of detachment) is a bad thing. Even so, there are bound to be many akusala moments with attachment to the idea of detachment. Everyone has occasional kusala moments in which there is always detachment. In the following split second, there can be attachment to detachment. But if we have developed a little right understanding, there will be fewer conditions for that akusala moment to arise. ---------------- KH: > > To counsel against making right effort would be like saying, "The flood is crossed by standing still." It would be far better to counsel, "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are without self." .......... H: > Mmm, mmm. I'm so glad you said that, because now I'm liberated! ;-) ----------------- :-) In a way, we are all liberated: "Mere suffering exists: no sufferer is found." (Vis. XVI) ------------ H: > do you consider it irrelevant what the *nature* of that cetana is? Not all volition is the same. Not all is kusala/useful/wholesome. Some volition bears bitter fruit. ------------- The volition that accompanies wrong view is the worst volition of all, and so the volition that accompanies right view must be the best. Which of those two volitions is present when we think or act in the belief we can control dhammas? I'm sorry if I have missed the exact point you are making, but this emphasis you keep placing on volition can only (it seems to me) strengthen ideas of a controlling self. Ken H 47397 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:13am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Phil and (Howard), > Hi Herman, Howard and all > > Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - > but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription > prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of > enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in > the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. > There's a time honoured tradition of answering a question with a question :-) Does the Buddha prescribe to go and win the lottery? All the best Herman 47398 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi RobertK, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman, > Thanks for your questions, > I reply after each one: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > >> > > > > > Robert: Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely > an > > > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > > > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and > live > > > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being > who > > > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Herman: I accept that it is impossible to capture reality with > language, but I > > have some questions. > > > > 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? > > __________________ > We is a concept used to describe the different streams of khandhas. > __________________________________________- > If I understand your answer correctly, it can be used to clarify what I meant in the next question about self and not-self. If there are different streams of khandas, then the stream with which there is identification is me, and all the other streams are not me. There are events that happen in this stream (me), and there are events that happen in other streams (not me). That's what I meant below, but I wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. (I hope I am not misconstruing you :-)) > > > > 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, > and > > no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that > where" > > of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self > (not as > > agent) and other, or self and not-self. > _______________ > Hearing occurs at the ear base, seeing at the eye base, smelling at > the nose base, thining at the mind base etc. Not sure about your > question about distinguishing self or not-self? > > > > _______________________________ > > 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all > > there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels > this > > arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of > > conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? > > > > Kind Regards > ____________ > The conditions are themselves khandhas. Sankhara khandha includes > tanha (desire)and upadana (graspaing)and avijja(ignorance):these are > the factors that spin the wheel of dependent origination. > Please ask if you want more clarification, this is an important > topic. I am not sure of all the ramifications of what you say here. It seems to allow for tanha, upadana and avijja being conditions for their own arising. I'll have to ponder some more on this. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47399 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >> > > 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? > > > > __________________ > > We is a concept used to describe the different streams of khandhas. > > __________________________________________- > > > > If I understand your answer correctly, it can be used to clarify what > I meant in the next question about self and not-self. If there are > different streams of khandas, then the stream with which there is > identification is me, and all the other streams are not me. There are > events that happen in this stream (me), and there are events that > happen in other streams (not me). That's what I meant below, but I > wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. (I hope I > am not misconstruing you :-)) > _______________ Dear Herman, You are exactly right. The Buddha's teaching of anatta is not that all is one and that we cannot distinguish between different streams of khandhas. What anatta means is that for each stream nothing lasts even for a second- there is a ceasless arising and passing away of nama and rupa. Each stream has different conditioning factors, different degrees of tanha and avijja- and even these conditioning factors are constantly being added to (or, if insight is being developed, erased.) > > > > > > > 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, > > and > > > no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that > > where" > > > of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self > > (not as > > > agent) and other, or self and not-self. > > _______________ > > Hearing occurs at the ear base, seeing at the eye base, smelling at > > the nose base, thining at the mind base etc. Not sure about your > > question about distinguishing self or not-self? > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > > 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all > > > there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels > > this > > > arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of > > > conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? > > > > > > Kind Regards > > ____________ > > The conditions are themselves khandhas. Sankhara khandha includes > > tanha (desire)and upadana (graspaing)and avijja(ignorance):these are > > the factors that spin the wheel of dependent origination. > > Please ask if you want more clarification, this is an important > > topic. > _______________________ > I am not sure of all the ramifications of what you say here. It seems > to allow for tanha, upadana and avijja being conditions for their own > arising. I'll have to ponder some more on this. _________ In fact they do condition their subsequent rearising. it is like developing a habit. Robertk