47600 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard, Perfecting the virtues is quite different from being a moral person. Morality in "normal" society is a very lax term when compared to the definition of the Buddhist virtue. The section on virtue in the Vissuddhimagga finishes with an analysis of the ascetic practices. This is a far deeper practice than just being a moral person in society. In fact there would be not a single person in western society who practices virtue to that level. It requires great effort and energy to be constantly aware of the most minor transgressions in virtue. Developing the perfection of virtue would therefore develop right mindfulness and right effort. This is another wonderful example of how many factors are interrelated. Develop one and by default a number of other factors deveop also. So, in conclusion, being "good" is not sufficient but perfecting virtue is. With Metta, Evan ===================== I readily admit, even proclaim, that the calm arising from consistent, though not necessarily perfect, moral action is requisite for entering jhana. It is a *major* and *essential* condition! I'm just maintaining that it is not sufficient. There are many, many moral people in the world, and few of them are jhana adepts. Some other conditions needed are regular solitary meditation practice, exertion of right effort [Even with perfect behavior, the inclination towards akusala is present even in lesser ariyans, and so constant vigilance is required], and cultivation of mindfulness, focus, and clarity of attention during day-to-day living. There is much to do, and being "good", while essential, is not the whole story. With metta, Howard 47601 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - In a message dated 7/12/05 9:49:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi Howard, Perfecting the virtues is quite different from being a moral person. Morality in "normal" society is a very lax term when compared to the definition of the Buddhist virtue. The section on virtue in the Vissuddhimagga finishes with an analysis of the ascetic practices. This is a far deeper practice than just being a moral person in society. In fact there would be not a single person in western society who practices virtue to that level. It requires great effort and energy to be constantly aware of the most minor transgressions in virtue. Developing the perfection of virtue would therefore develop right mindfulness and right effort. This is another wonderful example of how many factors are interrelated. Develop one and by default a number of other factors deveop also. So, in conclusion, being "good" is not sufficient but perfecting virtue is. With Metta, Evan =========================== Well, this now sounds like viryually mastering the entire 8-fold noble path, which in fact is far more than one neds to enter4 the jhanas. But, in any case, I just don't think that a short statement to the effect that perfecting virtue enables spontaeous entry to the jhanas. That was my point - the way the matter was put. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47602 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard, Now I understand your point. I guess even the Buddha did that. He would make a short statement and left it to other Bhikkhus to elaborate on it. With Metta, Evan =========================== Well, this now sounds like viryually mastering the entire 8-fold noble path, which in fact is far more than one neds to enter4 the jhanas. But, in any case, I just don't think that a short statement to the effect that perfecting virtue enables spontaeous entry to the jhanas. That was my point - the way the matter was put. With metta, Howard 47603 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi again, Evan - In a message dated 7/12/05 10:36:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Well, this now sounds like viryually mastering the entire 8-fold noble path, which in fact is far more than one neds to enter4 the jhanas. But, in any case, I just don't think that a short statement to the effect that perfecting virtue enables spontaeous entry to the jhanas. That was my point - the way the matter was put. With metta, Howard =========================== Just checking to see whether or not you were able to decipher the preceding spelling-impaired gibberish of mine! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47604 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:35pm Subject: Determination is Decisive ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Resolute Determination is the Eighth Mental Perfection: Only determination can completely fulfill the other mental perfections! It's characteristic is an unwavering decision, it's function is to overcome it's opposites, & it's manifestation is unfaltering persistence in this task... The proximate cause of determination is strong willpower to succeed! Only the vigour of resolute determination lifts any praxis to perfection... When the Future Buddha turned his back to the trunk of the Bodhi tree, then he right there made this mighty decision: 'Let just the blood & flesh of this body dry up & let the skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained the absolute supreme Enlightenment!' So determined did he invincibly seat himself, which not even 100 earthquakes could make him waver from. Jataka Nidana A female lay follower (Upasika) at the time of the Buddha kept the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and thereby won stream-entry (Sotapanna). After passing away, she re-arised as the favourite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit, she remembered her prior admonition to herself: 'Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort...!!!' Whose mind is like a rock, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust of urging towards the attractions, without a trace of aversion of pushing away the repulsive, from what, can such a refined mind ever suffer ? Udana IV - 4 Using the tools of Faith, Morality, Effort, Determination, Meditation and true Understanding of this Dhamma, one gradually perfect first knowledge & then behavior. So equipped & aware, one may eliminate all of this great heap of suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world, where all is decaying. My mind has been thus well developed, so how can suffering ever touch me? Theragatha 194 The four determinations: One should not neglect the Dhamma, One should guard well the Truth, One should be devoted to Withdrawal, and one should train only for Peace. Majjhima Nikaya 140 What is being determined for right Motivation ? The decision for being motivated by withdrawal, The decision for being motivated by good-will, The decision for being motivated by harmlessness: This is being determined for right Motivation. Samyutta Nikaya XLV 8 Fearing being predestined for Hell if he became a King, who had to punish criminals violently, the Bodhisatta determined not to show any intelligence, and play dump, deaf and cripple for sixteen years, only showing his abilities, when he was on the verge of being buried alive! This was his ultimate perfection of resolute determination... The Basket of Conduct: Cariyapitaka ___________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47605 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 0:21am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 247 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (u) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Questions i How many akusala cittas are accompanied by ignorance? ii Why is the manifestation of ignorance “causing blindness”? iii Of what is moha ignorant? iv Can ignorance experience an object? v What is the difference between hiri, shamelessness and anottappa, recklessness? vi Why does one not see, at the moment of akusala citta, that akusala is impure and why does one not fear its danger? vii When we enjoy nature is there restlessness? viii Why is understanding a necessary factor not only for the development of insight but also for the development of samatha? ix Can restlessness experience an object? ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 47606 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:39am Subject: Htoo's recent posts sarahprocter... Hi Htoo & all, I've just caught up on my reading of your recent DTs and other posts addressed to 'Dhamma Friends' in general. I think they're all excellent. Well done! They seem to get better and better. For those who skip the technical ones, I particularly recommend #47513 (DT437), especially those who still wonder if there are people or for those who would like to read a clear introduction to the abhidhamma. Also, #47521, (DT438) on the 12 individuals is very well set out. I also like the ones on jhanas, kamma, counting beads(;-)), roots and #47371 should be helpful for those like Larry who were recently discussing prompted and unprompted cittas. I find it most helpful to consider these as strong and weak cittas. Htoo refers here to the terms 'ukkattha kamma' and 'omaka kamma' for greater and lesser kamma, with ukkattha not needing to be prompted. Many thanks Htoo. Metta, Sarah ======== 47607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. nilovg Hi Larry, op 13-07-2005 02:13 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: >....So long as the latent tendency of dosa has not been > eradicated it arises. Only the non-returner who does not cling any more > to sense pleasures has eradicated dosa." L: Can we say definitively that unpleasant feeling plus latent tendencies > conditions the arising of dosa, in the same way that pleasant or neutral > feeling plus latent tendencies conditions the arising of tanha (craving) > in dependent arising? ------ N: We have to differentiate the conditioning factors of the D.O. and the latent tendencies that condition the arising of akusala cittas. As to D.O. this teaches the conditions for being in the cycle. For teaching purposes specific dhammas have been selected, some of which are conascent conditions (contact and feeling) and some are not conascent. Feeling is a link in the D.O. but feeling is not a latent tendency. As to the latent tendencies, there are seven latent tendencies: sense desire (kåma-råga), aversion (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for existence (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). Thus, feeling is not a latent tendency. A latent tendency is accumulated in the citta and it is a latent tendency in the sense of being unabandoned. Alatent tendency does not arise with citta, but it conditions the arising of akusala cittas. The pleasant and indifferent feeling that accompanies citta rooted in attachment are conditioned by the latent tendency of sense desire. The unpleasant feeling that accompanies akusala citta rooted in aversion is conditioned by the latent tendency of aversion. I translated from the Thai study of the Yamaka on this subject: Nina. 47608 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 13-07-2005 02:19 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Larry: "As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath > rupas vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling?" > > Nina: "There are many kinds of cittas arising when there is not > mindfulness of > breath. There may be: kusala cittas with mindfulness of another object, > akusala cittas, vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas. > I do not understand your point." --------- L: What is the difference between mindfulness of breath rupas and body-door > consciousness of breath rupas? ------ N: I think you mean: body-consciousness which is vipaakacitta? This can only experience tangible object, thus, hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. The kusala citta with mindfulness of breath, here we have to differentiate samatha and vipassana. In samatha the yogavacara is mindful of the hardness etc. thus of tangible object, with the purpose to develop calm to the degree of jhaana. He needs accomplished sati sampajaññaa (sati and paññaa) as the Visuddhimagga explains: strong mindfulness is needed. As we have seen, the anapanasati is included in the Application of Mindfulness of the Body, and here the yogavacara also develops vipassana, in order to see the Body in the Body. The Co. explains that he has to develop all stages of vipassana. It explains that he has to be mindful of the four great elements and the derived rupas. He has to see them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Nina. 47609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, op 13-07-2005 01:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > You wrote, "In order to abandon this factor he must have a precise > understanding of it, but he does not understand it as non-self." -- did > you mean to say : "..., but he must undestand it as non-self" ? Or, did > you mean "but he does not yet understand it as non-self?" > -------------------------- N: he does not understand it as non-self, because the understanding of anatta is not the purpose of samatha. ---------- > Nina: In vipassana the object is the characteristics of nama and rupa > appearing at the present moment, one at a time. The aim is to see > them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. > > Tep: Did you mean " the aim is to see nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa"? If you did, then should the first sentence be " In vipassana the objects are the nama and rupa > appearing ..."? > --------------------------- N: It is not quite the same. Ruupa is experienced in anapanasati samaadhi, it appears, but in samatha the purpose is not to penetrate its characteristic of anatta. ----------- > Tep: Up to now, it is clear that 1) the object of vitakka in samatha is > different than the object of vitakka in vipassana, 2) the aim of vitakka in > the 1st jhana is not the same as that of vipassana, and 3) wisdom of > samatha is different (lower?) than wisdom of vipassana. But I am > unable to relate these three observations to explain "thinking" in both > cases. Please continue to explain. ------ N: That is right. Vitakka is often translated as applied thought. It 'hits' or 'touches' the object experienced by citta and the accompanying cetasikas. It assists citta in cognizing an object. It accompanies all sense sphere cittas, except the sense-cognitions. Seeing sees visible object and it does not need vitakka. In samatha vitakka hits or touches the meditation subject again and again and thereby assists sati sampajaññaa of samatha so that calm can develop. In vipassana vitakka hits or touches the nama and rupa that appears through one of the six doors, so that right understanding of nama and rupa can develop in the different stages of insight. The aim of samatha is calm, temporary freedom from defilements, detachment from sense objects. Also in samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome by the jhanafactors. The aim of vipassana is the eradication of wrong view and of all other defilements. Paññaa has to realize nama and rupa as they are. This leads to detachment from nama and rupa. Is there anything else I can add? Nina. 47610 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, (Nina, Kel & all), We were discussing whether lokuttara cittas can arise without sammasankappa when the higher jhanas are used as basis. Nina gave a quote from the Vism Tiika to support this and I gave one from Sammohavinodani: S:> Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: <...> „« "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the second > jhaana is of the second jhaana. Here the path factors are seven.* > > "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the third > jhaana is of the third jhaana; but here the path factors are seven and the > enlightenment factors six.** > > "So also from one emerging from the fourth jhaana up to one emerging from > the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception." > > footnotes: > *"Owing to absence of sa"nkappa,since vitakka is absent in the second > jhaana." > **"Through absence of piiti in the third jhaana." „« **** „« S: I came across another quote to support this in the same text (1537) recently too. It concludes as follows: „« „« ¡§....Thus this rapture awakening factor which is without applied and sustained thought is excluded from the sense sphere and from the fine-material sphere and from the immaterial sphere; thus it is expounded as only that which belongs to the supramundane which has been produced.¡¨ Htoo, just before you ¡¥went off air¡¦, you wrote: „« „« ..... --- htootintnaing wrote: > I read all what you wrote. Nina felt happy with your message. But my > belief is that > > whatever sukkhavipassaka or jhaanalaabhi not using jhaana as the base > for insight or jhaanalaabhi using jhaana as the base for insight.. > at magga kaala all 8 path factors do arise. This is my belief. ... S: Well, we¡¦re only talking about jhaanalaabhi using jhaana as base for insight. The texts seem to be rather clear that this is not always the case and that lokuttara jhana cittas are then accompanied only by the jhana factors of the stage of jhana just attained. Now to your points .... > 1. sukkhavipassaka matter is clear that there are all 8 path-factors. > > 2. jhaanalaabhi who did not use jhaana as the base for insight also > had all 8 path factors. Again this is no doubt. > > 3. jhaanalaabhi, who used jhaana as the base for insight > > when in jhaana say 5th jhaana or aruupa jhaana there was no vitakka. > So there is no jhaana-vitakka. He would be basing jhaana. But at exit > when he does retrospection (paccavakkhana naana) > > there DID arise vitakka. Without vitakka retrospection can never be > done. ... S: No one questions this. No problem. .... <...> > BBBMPUAGMPPPBBBBB > > This is magga vithi vara. Manodvaravajjana does have vitakka. P is > parikamma (vutthaana-gaaminii vipassanaa naana) and it is also with > vitakka. U is upacaara mahakusala citta (vutthaana-gaaminii > vipassanaa naana). It is also with vitakka. A is anuloma. > <...> > G is gotrabhu mahakusala citta and it is a lineage-chaning citta and > it is followed by magga citta. Gotrabhu is also with vitakka. . ... S: Leaving aside parikamma which I believe does not always needed, I assume this is correct.. .... > While all foregoing javana cittas have vitakka why magga citta not > have vitakka? ... S: I think it¡¦s exactly the same as in the jhana process when you have BBBMPUAGJJJBBB, for example Only the JJJ jhana cittas are accompanied by the required jhana factors, dropping vitakka and vicara when they are unnecessary for the other factors to perform their functions. So, I assume that in the case of the magga cittas (when higher jhanas are used as basis), do not need these mental factors either. They are simply not necessary for the task of (in this case) realization and eradication of defilements by pa~n~naa. The vitakka is not necessary to support the pa~n~naa. Just my speculation here. .... > There is no jhaana-vitakka at that time. Yes. But there does arise > magga-vitakka which is samma-sankappa. > > That is why The Buddha preached to first 5 disciples that there are 8 > path factors. .... S: 8 path factors to be developed and in general, 8 path factors which are used to realize nibbana and eradicate defilements. I¡¦ll see if A.Sujin has more to add when I see her and maybe you and Kel can check with your elderly Burmese teachers. I don¡¦t think you are correct here. I agree it¡¦s a curious and interesting point and as I wrote before, I think it has significance for the point about whether the jhanas were always used as basis for enlightenment for the various jhanalabhi as is sometimes suggested. As I wrote: > S: Indeed the Vism. passage (XX1, 112) clearly differentiated between a) the path arisen in a sukkha-vipassaka (dry-insight worker), b) that arisen in 'one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made jhana the basis for insight', and c)'the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight' and so on. > > Following on from that passage, the text(113) also refers to the seven path factors when 'paths are made to arise using the second, third, and fourth jhanas in the fivefold reckoning as the basis for insight'. It stresses that whether there then be four, three or two jhana factors, 'in each case, however, the path factors number seven...'< Metta, Sarah p.s See 'Suvey of Paramattha Dhammas', by A.Sujin, translated by Nina - chapters on 'The Development of Samatha' and 'The Factors leading to Enlightenment'. ================= 47611 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:12am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassanaa and their implications ( 04 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhanga) There are 7 bojjanga dhamma or factors of enlightenment. Bo means 'know' and here it means 'bodhi-naana'. Anga means 'limb' or parts. So bodhi-anga or bojjhanga means 'limbs of enlightenment'. So bojjhanga means 'enlightenment factors. 1. sati-sam-bojjhanga (mindfulness factor of enlightenment) 2. dhammavicaya-sam-bojjhanga(investigation of phenomena factor) 3. piiti-sam-bojjhanga (joy factor) 4. passaddhi-sam-bojjhanga (tranquility factor) 5. viiriya-sam-bojjhanga (effort factor) 6. samaadhi-sam-bojjhanga (concentration factor) 7. upekkhaa-sam-bojjhanga (equanimity factor) There are 4 contemplations on each bojjhanga or enlightenment factor. 1. this is such factor that exist right now. 2. there is not such factor exist right now. 3. this factor arise because of wise fulfilment (wise attention) 4. this factor is perfected and no more need to fulfil. (magga) These dhammas are not simple things. They just arise when staying in satipatthaana. The last contemplation is for those who just develop path-knowledge. But for puthujana they can contemplate with learned knowledge. As there are 7 factors there are 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors. So far 25 contemplations on hindrances, 15 contemplations on aggregates, 36 contemplations on sense-bases and 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors have been talked. So there have been 25 + 15 + 36 + 28 = 104 contemplations among 108 contemplations of Dhammaanupassana satipatthaana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47612 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, (Nina, Kel & all), > We were discussing whether lokuttara cittas can arise without > sammasankappa when the higher jhanas are used as basis. > Metta, > Sarah > p.s See 'Suvey of Paramattha Dhammas', by A.Sujin, translated by Nina - >chapters on 'The Development of Samatha' and 'The Factors leading to > Enlightenment'. ================= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, When I have time I will reply this message. I like your example back to me. That is jhaana-vithi-vara. It seems making sense. But I think, personally, jhaana are not like magga. For the first time attainment of jhana there always arise only a single jhana citta and it is immedicately followed by bhavanga cittas. So before one become a jhana-labhii (jhana-owner, jhana-holder, jhana- attainer) there has to run a series called jhana-vithi-vara. All the preceeding javana cittas may have vitakka while jhana when it is 2nd jhana does not include any vitakka. But in that kind of vithi vara vittakkas in preceeding maha-kusala cittas are something like lineage-changing consciousness. This applies to all javana just before jhana citta without vitakka. Regarding magga cittas, there are preceeding paccavakkhana vithi varas or retrospection on foregoing jhana. All these are done with cittas with vitakka. In magga-vithi-vara all preceeding javana cittas have vitakka. They all would have the power of samma-sankappa. But magga- cittas are only cittas that have perfect samma-sankappa. I think I may be stubborn in this matter of samma-sankappa and lokuttara jhaana magga-cittas. When I have a chance to enquire regarding this I would try to approach someone elder and ask them. With respect, Htoo Naing 47613 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 0:09am Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ! bhikkhu_ekamuni Somebody: >perfect sila may quite likely lead to misunderstanding. IMHO perfect sila never lead to any misunderstanding! : - ] 47614 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:44pm Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Tep Sastri wrote: >with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful With pure Morality one becomes free of remorse and regrets. This freedom produces joy. Being remorseful leads to worry. : - ] 47615 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Sila as neccessary but not sufficient condition for Samadhi bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Howard: I agree in that Sila is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for Samadhi. However as this indispensable root condition of pure morality is often overlooked - even many times in history - I found it suitable to repeat. Since when morality lacks, concentration will also decay. When concentration lacks, understanding also decays. Without understanding, there is no attainment of release! Up through the centuries this decay happens again & again. Any reinforcement of the Sasana, and comeback of beings with direct experience of release is founded in a cleaning of this basic behavioral foundation of Morality (Sila)... Both on the ordained and lay levels. : - ] 47616 From: "avinduandura" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:19am Subject: identifying thoughts avinduandura Dear Sarah and all, I was highly impressed by "introduction to abhidamma-speaker notes", so just had a thought of seeing myself as a collection of "ultimate realities" as explained in the notes. I thought myself is a collection of rupa, vedana, sanna,sankhara, vinnana. from the above collection, I took vedana, sanna, sankhara and named as ultimate reality "cetasika". i had to neglect more specific components. ie vedana sanna sankhara. again, vinnan is "citta" and rupa remain as rupa. now myself is built from ultimate realities 1. rupa 2. cetasika ethically veriable(13) wholesome(12) un wholesome (14) 3. citta -12 unwholesome, 18 rootless, 24 beautiful(wholesome and resultant or subconsious) then i assumed any of those citta(54) and cetasika (39) can be noticed by close examination. i was able to notice many "thoughts" but had difficulties when catagorizing those thoughts in to 1. greed, hatred,delution rooted citta 2. non-greed,non-hatred, non delution rooted citta 3. resultan citta a. ethical veriable cetasika b. wholesome cetasika c. un-wholesome cetasika my questions are; 1. is it possible to notice above ALL citta and cetasika? specially the resultant beautiful or subconsious citta? 2. what are the thoughts? just collection of citta and cetasika? 3. there is an examinar in this prosess. so what is that? it is a citta or cetasika? or subconcious mind in modern science? 4. what are the running thoughs that are apearing and dissapearing during the thought process? metta avidu. 47617 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:05am Subject: re: enjoying Sri Lanka nichiconn ok, dsg. did i just hear lead singer sarah chanting 'moha, moha, moha, sati' in bodh gaya as this other cross-post was headed out? peace, connie << meditation: bhaavanaa (f) increase; development by means of thought; meditation [bhavana (nt) becoming; a dwelling place] meditation (nt) jhaayana; jhaana jhaayana (nt) burning; meditation jhaana (nt) concentration of mind; meditation (on a religious subject) Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga is widely accepted as "the" meditation manual. It begins with a section on "Virtue". Then the "Concentration" section starts talking about "Acceptance of the Subjects of Meditation" and goes on for 11 chapters that lead into the "Understanding" section. Chapter 7, between "Meditation on the Foul" and "Mindfulness as to Death" in the "Exposition of the Subjects" discusses the "Six Recollections" (of the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, Virtue, Generosity & Devas). Part of Nanamoli's xltn reads: << [(2)] RECOLLECTION OF THE DHAMMA] 68. One who wants to develop the Recollection of the Dhamma (Law) should go into solitary retreat and recollect the special qualities of both the Dhamma (Law) of the scriptures and the ninefold supramundane Dhamma (state) as follows: 'The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One, visible here and now, not delayed (timeless), inviting of inspection, onward-leading, and directly experienceable by the wise' (M. i, 37; A. iii, 285). ... 71. And when listened to, it does good through hearing it because it suppresses the hindrances, thus it is good in the beginning. And when made the way of practice it does good through the way being entered upon because it brings the bliss of serenity and insight, thus it is good in the middle. And when it has thus been made the way of practice and the fruit of the way is ready, it does good through the fruit of the way because it brings [unshakable] equipoise, thus it is good in the end. So it is 'well proclaimed' because of being good in the beginning, the middle and the end. [...] It is 'utterly perfect' because it is connected with the five Aggregates of Dhamma beginning with Virtue. {33} It is 'pure' because it has no imperfection, because it exists for the purpose of crossing over [the round of rebirths' flood (see M.i,134)], and because it is not concerned with worldly things. So it is 'well proclaimed' because it 'announces the life of purity that is utterly perfect and pure with meaning and with detail'. Or alternatively, it is since it has been properly proclaimed with no perversion of meaning. For the meaning of other sectarians' law suffers perversion since there is actually no obstruction in the [215] things described there as obstructive and actually no outlet in the things described there as outlets, which is why their law is ill-proclaimed; but not so the Blessed One's Law, whose meaning suffers no perversion since the things described there as obstructions and the things described there as outlets are so in actual fact. So, in the first place, the Dhamma of the scriptures is 'well proclaimed'. 74. [...] Just as the water of the Ganges meets and joins with the water of the Yaumunaa, so too the way leading to nibbana has been properly declared to the disciples by the Blessed One, and nibbana and the way meet' (D.ii,223). 75. [...] 79. Or alternatively, it is seeing (dassana) that is called 'the seen (di.t.tha)'; then di.t.tha and sandi.t.tha are identical in meaning as 'seeing'. It is worthy of being seen (di.t.tha), thus it is 'visible here and now '. For the supramundane Dhamma (law) arrests the fearful round (of kamma, etc.,] as soon as it is seen by means of penetration consisting in development [of the path] and by means of penetration consisting in realization [of nibbana]. So it is 'visible here and now (sandi.t.thika)' since it is worthy of being seen (di.t.tha), just as one who is clothable (vatthika) {34} is so called because he is worthy of clothes (vattha). [...] note 33. These 'five aggregates' are those of virtue, concentration, understanding, deliverance, and knowledge and vision of deliverance. The final part of this Law section reads (PMTin xltn): << And the monk who applies himself to the recollection of the Law comes to have, through seeing its qualities, respect and reverence for the Teacher: -- "Such a preacher of the Law which leads up to, such a teacher endowed with this merit I saw not in the past, nor do I see in the present, other than the Blessed One." Honouring the Law, he attains an abundance of faith and so on, is abundantly rapturous and joyful, overcomes fear and dread, is able to bear pain, gets an idea of the life in the Law; and his body, informed by recollection of the qualities of the Law, is worthy of adoration like a temple; his mind bends towards the attainment of the incomparable Law; in contact with sinful objects he feels a sense of shame and dread as he recalls the goodness of the Law; he is bound for a happy destiny though he penetrate no further. >> Onward leading... "That which is fit to be brought (to a conclusion) is "leading up to". This herein is the decision: the bringing to a conclusion is the leading up to it. Or, that which is fit to be brought to a conclusion in one's mind by means of culture, being indifferent in doing so, even though one's headdress or the head itself be burning. This refers to the conditioned transcendental Law. The Unconditioned is fit to be brought to a conclusion by one's own consciousness: hence, "leading up to." The meaning is, it is worthy of being cloven to by realization. Or it leads to Nibbaana. That which should lead is the Noble Path. The Fruition and the Nibbaana are fit to lead as they are to lead to a fit state for realization. That which is fit to lead is "leading up to". "To be attained to by the wise, each one for himself," means, to be understood by the wise such as those of quick understanding, each for himself thus: -- "The Path has been developed by me, the fruit is attained, cessation realized." For the pupil's vices are not put away by the Path developed by his preceptor; nor does he live in comfor by the latter's {1} attainment of the Fruition; neither does he realize the Nibbaana which the latter has realized. Therefore this is not merely to be looked at as one looks at an ornament on another's head. It should be seen, enjoyed {2} by the wise in their own mind, it is said. It is not a thing for fools. Further, < this Law is well-proclaimed >. Why? Because it is thoroughly seen. It is < thoroughly seen > because it is < not subject to time >. It is not subject to time because < it welcomes all >. And that which welcomes all < leads up to >. Thus when he recalls the qualities of the Law that is well-proclaimed and so forth, his mind then is not invaded by lust, nor by hate, nor by delusion, but is upright with reference to the Law. Thus when he has by this first method discarded the hindrances, the Jhaana-factors arise in one and the same moment. But from the profundity of the qualities of the Law, or the intentness with which he recalls them, various as they are, the Jhaana, not attaining to ecstacy, attains only to access. This Jhaana goes under the name of recollection of the Law because it arises by way of recalling the qualities of the Law. (PMTin xltn)>> <> 47618 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:38am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. > > I think there are some old posts on transplant matter. Below is my > reply to your message. > == I think it is useful to distinguish beween a cochlear implant and a transplant. A cochlear implant is an inorganic, inanimate electrical device, and a transplant is organic, living material taken from another being. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Herman: > > Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that > sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? > == > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Aayatana are paramattha dhamma. But cochlea is not. Nor is cochlea > implant or transplant. > I am happy that we are discussing this. I am determined to understand this, with your help. I will just ask one question at a time and snip the rest, so as to make it easier on myself. Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? Kind Regards Herman 47619 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sila as neccessary but not sufficient condition for Samadhi upasaka_howard Dear Bhante - Thak you for writing! :-) In a message dated 7/13/05 7:55:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bhikkhu.samahita@... writes: Dear friend Howard: I agree in that Sila is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for Samadhi. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sir. I know that you do. :-) --------------------------------- However as this indispensable root condition of pure morality is often overlooked - even many times in history - I found it suitable to repeat. --------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! It is so easy to lose sight of the fact that morality is not only proper, but is eminently *practical*! --------------------------------- Since when morality lacks, concentration will also decay. When concentration lacks, understanding also decays. Without understanding, there is no attainment of release! ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes! As usual, very well said, sir! ------------------------------------- Up through the centuries this decay happens again & again. Any reinforcement of the Sasana, and comeback of beings with direct experience of release is founded in a cleaning of this basic behavioral foundation of Morality (Sila)... Both on the ordained and lay levels. : - ] ======================= Thank you, Bhante! :-) With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47620 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - The picture is becoming clearer and clearer. Now it is crystal clear with respect to the role of vitakka in samatha and vipassana, and what panna means in both cases. > Is there anything else I can add? > Nina. You wrote, "Vitakka is often translated as applied thought.", but what about thinking? What about vicara? Are vitakka & vicara the product of thinking, or is thinking the outcome of vitakka & vicara, or does thinking have nothing to do with "thought"? More important, is thinking necessary and sufficient for conditioning insight knowledges? Is thinking important in vipassana? Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, (snipped) > > Tep: Up to now, it is clear that 1) the object of vitakka in samatha is > > different than the object of vitakka in vipassana, 2) the aim of vitakka in the 1st jhana is not the same as that of vipassana, and 3) wisdom of samatha is different (lower?) than wisdom of vipassana. But I am unable to relate these three observations to explain "thinking" in both cases. Please continue to explain. > ------ > N: That is right. > Vitakka is often translated as applied thought. It 'hits' or 'touches' the > object experienced by citta and the accompanying cetasikas. It assists citta in cognizing an object. It accompanies all sense sphere cittas, except the sense-cognitions. Seeing sees visible object and it does not need vitakka. > In samatha vitakka hits or touches the meditation subject again and again and thereby assists sati sampajaññaa of samatha so that calm can develop. > In vipassana vitakka hits or touches the nama and rupa that appears through one of the six doors, so that right understanding of nama and rupa can develop in the different stages of insight. > The aim of samatha is calm, temporary freedom from defilements, detachment from sense objects. Also in samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome by the jhanafactors. > The aim of vipassana is the eradication of wrong view and of all other > defilements. Paññaa has to realize nama and rupa as they are. This leads to detachment from nama and rupa. > 47621 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: identifying thoughts htootintnaing Dear Avidu, Thanks for your post. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "avinduandura" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu wrote: Dear Sarah and all, I was highly impressed by "introduction to abhidamma-speaker notes", so just had a thought of seeing myself as a collection of "ultimate realities" as explained in the notes. I thought myself is a collection of rupa, vedana, sanna,sankhara, vinnana. from the above collection, I took vedana, sanna, sankhara and named as ultimate reality "cetasika". i had to neglect more specific components. ie vedana sanna sankhara. again, vinnan is "citta" and rupa remain as rupa. now myself is built from ultimate realities 1. rupa 2. cetasika ethically veriable(13) wholesome(12) un wholesome (14) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are your wholesome cetasikas of 12? Ethically variable 13 cetasikas are 1. contact, 2. feeling, 3. volition, 4. perception, 5. one-pointedness 6. mental-life, 7. attention 8. initial-application, 9. sustained-application, 10. effort 11. joy, 12. wish, 13. decision Unwholesome 14 are 1. ignorance, 2. shamelessness, 3. fearlessness, 4. upset, 5. attachment, 6.conceit, 7. wrong-view 8. aversion, 9. jealousy, 10. stinginess, 11. worry 12. sloth, 13. torpor, and 14. suspicion I am not clear of what you are talking on 12 wholesome cetasikas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: [Avidu is made up of 1.rupa, 2. cetasikas and] 3. citta -12 unwholesome, 18 rootless, 24 beautiful(wholesome and resultant or subconsious) then i assumed any of those citta(54) and cetasika (39) can be noticed by close examination. i was able to notice many "thoughts" but had difficulties when catagorizing those thoughts in to 1. greed, hatred,delution rooted citta 2. non-greed,non-hatred, non delution rooted citta 3. resultan citta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 1. 10 cittas rooted by 2 bad roots. 2 cittas rooted by 1 bad root. 2. 47 cittas rooted by all 3 good roots. 12 cittas rooted by 2 good roots. 3. 18 cittas with no root. --- 89 cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: a. ethical veriable cetasika b. wholesome cetasika c. un-wholesome cetasika my questions are; 1. is it possible to notice above ALL citta and cetasika? specially the resultant beautiful or subconsious citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All 89 cittas can be the object of a mind. But your question seems to be specific. I think you are asking whether bhavanga cittas can be noticed or not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: 2. what are the thoughts? just collection of citta and cetasika? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thoughts itself is just a word and it is a broad term. So it is not possible to comment on it. But thoughts may well be a mixture. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: 3. there is an examinar in this prosess. so what is that? it is a citta or cetasika? or subconcious mind in modern science? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Who is the examiner? I could not find. If you do please tell me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: 4. what are the running thoughs that are apearing and dissapearing during the thought process? metta avidu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All thoughts are running. But I think you seem to be asking on javana cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47622 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! buddhistmedi... Ven, Samahita - Thank you for the correction. I think what I meant was : with fulfilled virtues we don't have to intend to be remorseful(hiri), remorse is spontaneous. Of course, with perfect sila we are free from remorse. But while virties are being fulfilled, they are not yet prefect. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful > > With pure Morality one becomes free of remorse and regrets. > This freedom produces joy. Being remorseful leads to worry. > > : - ] 47623 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. > > I think there are some old posts on transplant matter. Below is my > > reply to your message. > > == I think it is useful to distinguish beween a cochlear implant and a transplant. A cochlear implant is an inorganic, inanimate electrical device, and a transplant is organic, living material taken from another being. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know both implant and transplant. Both are related to our discussion on ayatana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Herman: > > > > Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that > > sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Aayatana are paramattha dhamma. But cochlea is not. Nor is cochlea > > implant or transplant. > I am happy that we are discussing this. I am determined to understand this, with your help. I will just ask one question at a time and snip the rest, so as to make it easier on myself. Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere (in the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47624 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah and Htoo, I think it's pretty clearly Htoo is wrong on this issue. There's not much ambiguity left after Visuddhimagga passages. - Kel 47625 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, I was thinking about the reply and I wasn't sure how familiar you're with Abhidhamma and how much I should use the terms. Cerainly sati accompanies every kusala citta so we can call it mere mindfulness. Sati doesn't understand but panna does to arise in 4/8 kusala cittas. > Part of the discussion in post #39749 centres around the fact that > at a moment of sati(-sampajana), third-party accounts of what is > happening have no bearing on the matter. It may appear to others > that there is a dhamma talk going on, a conversation, a lunch. Do > you, or anyone else, know what it is like to be a stream of kiriya > cittas, even for a short while? You probably read the sutta RobK posted. We wouldn't experience the maha-kiriyas because that only happens in arahats. The way I think about it, panna only knows more. It's only when there's access concentration or higher, the mind doesn't move away from one object that you lose sense of the surroundings. With momentary concentration, the object can be constantly changing. - kel 47626 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:39am Subject: "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon ksheri3 Good Morning Evan, We're choc ful of Nuts this morning huh? See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > > Ignorance to science is lack of knowledge. This is filled by > investigation which is an infinite pursuit not conducive to peace but> leading to frustration. colette: ever go whitewater rafting or zodiak rafting? We can pressume that the Stream of Consciousness is a peacfule ride huh? What causes, in the buddhist tradition of Dependent Causation, the ripple in the smooth surface of the conscious stream? Could it be Bam Bam or is it Pebbles? Do they flow in the stream or are they stagnant, crystalized to, secure to, the bottom where you surely can find cat-fish and other bottom feeders? Don't you find it interesting that kamma would be issued to a rock or a pebble forcing that rock or pebble to the bottom where it is to interupt the Stream of Consciousness? Is the rock or pebble aware of the kamma? In some people's case they act as deterents to competing for the limitation of money, of power, and that of taking the power and money away from a status quo. Still, if a persons tries to act as a rock or pebble then they are playing the game of deception where we find the sheep's clothing adorned on a wolf. Surely that person is subject to the most horrendous of kamma, then, because of their deception i.e. the webs we weave..., the 3 Kelipothic nogah (3 qliphothic evils not to be approached by man), All The Kings Men, etc. ------------------------------- > > Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as > they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a > finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and cessation. It > is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle > experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or > abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions > attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also were > able to attain some of the path and fruits. colette: <....> You are suggesting a wonderful idea, so original, and who could have ever thought of it: only have a single goal and repeat the same message over & over & over &... <...> do you suggest that the Bhikkhus path is the only path and that it is that path which should be the path everyone fallows or pursues? <....> --------------------------- Theology is > derived from 2 Greek words - Theo meaning God and Logia meaning > discussion. So it is a discussion of God. That is why I dismissed > theology as having any relevence to any Buddhist topic. As for the book > you mention, no I have not read it but I assume from its title that it > discusses mythical Tibetan characters. That's fine but I don't think > they would be revered as Gods. The Buddha is called a teacher of gods > and men (men meaning women as well of course) but I prefer to interpret > that as being deities or beings from higher planes of existence. God in > the western world implies a creator god which is quite definitely > refuted by the Buddha. Some people take the deity discourses as being > fact, some consider them to be a means to deliver a message and others > reserve their judgement until they observe these beings for themselves. > That is fine and whichever path you take is up to your own preference. > None of these paths detracts from the Buddhist message. colette: exactly they all lead to the same place however some are more direct than others. <...> While some paths lead directly to the point of origin or destination other paths tend to be run arounds that can be construed as attempts to mislead and misdirect in order to create confusion and ignorance. Here I must say that if a Meglamaniac was going to have any characteristics then the most glorifying characteristic they could possibly crave to possess is the characteristic to place someone in a maze without any hope of escape and begging for food & water, begging for everything, until they can get out of the maze. I recall reading a pc. either it was "Entering The Budddhadhamma" or maybe it was "The General Guidance and Purification of the Soul ver. 2" and one of them was completely consumed with Miss Direction. I even commented to the author that "it sounds as if you're creating a labyrinth." toodles, colette <....> 47627 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, This is very clear. Thank you. One further question below. > > Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for > hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere > (in the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. > > Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part > of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. > Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) Kind Regards Herman 47628 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Kel, Thank you, I now appreciate the difference. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I was thinking about the reply and I wasn't sure how familiar > you're with Abhidhamma and how much I should use the terms. > Cerainly sati accompanies every kusala citta so we can call it mere > mindfulness. Sati doesn't understand but panna does to arise in 4/8 > kusala cittas. > > > Part of the discussion in post #39749 centres around the fact that > > at a moment of sati(-sampajana), third-party accounts of what is > > happening have no bearing on the matter. It may appear to others > > that there is a dhamma talk going on, a conversation, a lunch. Do > > you, or anyone else, know what it is like to be a stream of kiriya > > cittas, even for a short while? > > You probably read the sutta RobK posted. We wouldn't experience > the maha-kiriyas because that only happens in arahats. The way I > think about it, panna only knows more. It's only when there's > access concentration or higher, the mind doesn't move away from one > object that you lose sense of the surroundings. With momentary > concentration, the object can be constantly changing. > > - kel 47629 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: driving a car and sati. egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you. I think I am understanding the subtleties a bit more. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > cittas are arising and falling away very fast. In between our work, or > driving a car, there can be a moment of kusala citta with sati and > understanding of the visible object or hardness at that moment. But I do not > say that it is easy. Such a short moment of satipatthana would never > interfere with what you are doing. On the contrary, it is to one's benefit. > Satipatthana is not the same as the development of concentration on one > meditation subject. Is a moment of satipatthana the same as a moment of not papanca(ing)? Kind Regards Herman > Nina. > >> You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any > >> situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For > > anyone > >> engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close > >> proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a > >> car at a 100kmh ... 47630 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi RobertK, A very relevant story indeed! Point taken. (It seems a bit of an anti-climax to mark the attaining of arantship with climbing/sliding down a pole :-)) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman and Kel, > Here is a nice story from the Dhammapadaatthakatha related to this > issue: > > http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm > Verse 348 > > The Story of Uggasena 47631 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Evan_Stamato... Hi Htoo, This is not as I have understood it. As I read the suttas it is quite clear to me that the 5 sense bases are the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. These are all the physical organs which enable the entry of sense objects. Are you saying that this is not so? If so what are you saying that the sense bases are? With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Egbert Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2005 8:12 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Hi Htoo, This is very clear. Thank you. One further question below. > > Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for > hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere (in > the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. > > Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part > of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. > Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) Kind Regards Herman 47632 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon Evan_Stamato... Hi Colette, colette: ever go whitewater rafting or zodiak rafting? We can pressume that the Stream of Consciousness is a peacfule ride huh? What causes, in the buddhist tradition of Dependent Causation, the ripple in the smooth surface of the conscious stream? Could it be Bam Bam or is it Pebbles? Do they flow in the stream or are they stagnant, crystalized to, secure to, the bottom where you surely can find cat-fish and other bottom feeders? Don't you find it interesting that kamma would be issued to a rock or a pebble forcing that rock or pebble to the bottom where it is to interupt the Stream of Consciousness? Is the rock or pebble aware of the kamma? In some people's case they act as deterents to competing for the limitation of money, of power, and that of taking the power and money away from a status quo. Still, if a persons tries to act as a rock or pebble then they are playing the game of deception where we find the sheep's clothing adorned on a wolf. Surely that person is subject to the most horrendous of kamma, then, because of their deception i.e. the webs we weave..., the 3 Kelipothic nogah (3 qliphothic evils not to be approached by man), All The Kings Men, etc. ------------------------------- For one that has made ones mind as still as a rock, there is no deception. There is purity. Nor is it stagnant - it is clear and bright. > > Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as > they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a > finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and cessation. It > is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle > experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or > abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions > attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also were > able to attain some of the path and fruits. colette: <....> You are suggesting a wonderful idea, so original, and who could have ever thought of it: only have a single goal and repeat the same message over & over & over &... <...> do you suggest that the Bhikkhus path is the only path and that it is that path which should be the path everyone fallows or pursues? <....> --------------------------- There is no point in originality when the Buddha has expounded this Dhamma so perfectly. Repetition is a tool used in the suttas to get the message across. I also use this technique - I think it's very effective. There is only one goal of the Buddhasassana. I am not suggesting that the Bhikkhu's path is the only path otherwise I would be a Bhikkhu myself. No, what I am saying is that whether one is rich or poor, one can follow the path. One's ability to follow the path is independent of the magnitude of one's material accumulations. Theology is > derived from 2 Greek words - Theo meaning God and Logia meaning > discussion. So it is a discussion of God. That is why I dismissed > theology as having any relevence to any Buddhist topic. As for the book > you mention, no I have not read it but I assume from its title that it > discusses mythical Tibetan characters. That's fine but I don't think > they would be revered as Gods. The Buddha is called a teacher of gods > and men (men meaning women as well of course) but I prefer to interpret > that as being deities or beings from higher planes of existence. God in > the western world implies a creator god which is quite definitely > refuted by the Buddha. Some people take the deity discourses as being > fact, some consider them to be a means to deliver a message and others > reserve their judgement until they observe these beings for themselves. > That is fine and whichever path you take is up to your own preference. > None of these paths detracts from the Buddhist message. colette: exactly they all lead to the same place however some are more direct than others. <...> While some paths lead directly to the point of origin or destination other paths tend to be run arounds that can be construed as attempts to mislead and misdirect in order to create confusion and ignorance. Here I must say that if a Meglamaniac was going to have any characteristics then the most glorifying characteristic they could possibly crave to possess is the characteristic to place someone in a maze without any hope of escape and begging for food & water, begging for everything, until they can get out of the maze. I recall reading a pc. either it was "Entering The Budddhadhamma" or maybe it was "The General Guidance and Purification of the Soul ver. 2" and one of them was completely consumed with Miss Direction. I even commented to the author that "it sounds as if you're creating a labyrinth." --------------------------- You are correct - some paths are more direct than others. Some people prefer to take the scenic route to their destinations and others prefer the shortest route. Some get stuck in a maze going round and round. This depends on one's disposition and that is why there is more than one vehicle to cater for different personality types. Theological paths, however, are a dead end that must be recognised as such before further development can take place. With Metta, Evan 47633 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Re. body consciousness of breath rupas and mindfulness of breath rupas, can we say mindfulness (sati) generates an intention to be conscious of breath rupas? If so, then mindfulness of breath rupas is an intentional body consciousness generated by mindfulness. Assuming that is correct, what is the difference between a desirous intention and a mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? Larry 47634 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. lbidd2 Hi Nina, One more thought on dosa. Can we say there are only three possible responses to painful feeling, insight, hatred, or bewilderment? Larry 47635 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Vism.XIV,172 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 172. (xlvi) Envying is 'envy'. It has the characteristic of being jealous of other's success. Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. It is manifested as averseness from that. Its proximate cause is another's success. It should be regarded as a fetter. 47636 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:34pm Subject: Sati and panna philofillet Hi Nina, and all I found this from an old post. It keeps coming up. Nina wrote: "Sati just attends to the characteristic of seeing when it appears and then panna can at that moment perform its task of illuminating the object." Nina, I know you have many threads to respond to but if you have time during the next couple of days, could I ask you to expand on this just a little? Is it the role of sati to bring an object to the forefront and hold it in place momentarily, if you will, so that panna can understand it, penetrate it, get at the characteristics? I keep thinking of a gem merchant holding up (sati) a gem so that his trained eye (panna) can penetrate the object of his attention and know its characteristics clearly. I assume the "seeing" above could be any paramattha dhamma, in principle, at least. (There are limits to what we can attend to.) Thanks in advance. Sorry if I've asked this question before... Metta, Phil 47637 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:32pm Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your post and for sharing your insights with us all. > It is not clear to me how analytical or synthesising > > acts of the mind, as required by that current of Buddhism that > > promulgates the need to know things at that elemental level which > > supposedly is the real reality, are not a variety of papanca. To > me, > > it seems that when there is no analysis or no synthesis, there are > not > > elements, there is .......... > > Ph: Yes, I think we agree there. The point is that we shouldn't > try too hard to understand the details. == I tend to get stuck on things like this. If we start of from the perspective of anatta, then, of course, shoulding and trying are also just conditioned events. As I wrote recently to Andrew, the upshot of the anatta doctrine is that self-view is also anatta. There is noone that has self-view. In effect, the discovery of the reality of anatta makes no difference to reality, and that is why only an enlightened person knows anatta truly. Trying to discover anatta is like trying to discover nibbana. It doesn't work. == Understanding will arise in > a conditioned way, "panna will work its way" as I heard today, or it > won't. == Very much agreed. (Geez, we're almost bosom buddies :-)). The only hope I have is that the path to cessation of suffering is just as it jumps out at me in the suttas, in which case panna *will* do its work. == > > BTW, what comes after the "there is...." above? Nibbana? Are you > a believer in "nibbana now?" What do you take that to mean? I think > there can certainly be calm now, peace of mind now, thanks to the > Buddha's teaching of anatta, though there is more likely to be a > kind of clinging to some kind of calm. But I don't understand > this "nibbana now." > The little kid in "sixth sense" saw dead people, sometimes I see holes in consciousness. Such occurences make me believe that nibbana is a possible reality. Other "crazy" things happen when there is a suspension of thinking. (I call them crazy because they are very unusual). After suspending thinking there comes awareness of other, non-thinking realities, and it is possible to find a way of suspending them in turn as well. If "nibbana now" is not a possibility now, then it never will be a possibility. The things that stand in the way of it are not going to cease by themself as long as the cycle of dependent origination is being fuelled. And that is what we are doing all the time, often without knowing that we are doing it. Waiting for the fire to go out whilst shovelling coal on it at a furious pace is not so much the developing of patience, more an exercise in ignorance, wouldn't you say? Sure enough, the intention of finding nibbana is counterproductive. But the intention of ceasing the production of an insane world is not. And when the urge grabs you, run with it!! Kind Regards Herman > Over to you, Herman :) > > Metta, > Phil 47638 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Re: Bangkok sukinderpal Hi Nick, Welcome to DSG. My own interests in Buddhism lead me initially to Tibetan Buddhism, and for a few years I was little interested in the Theravada tradition. Just more than five years ago however, I decided to take the so called `practice' aspect more seriously. And because I knew of no Tibetan center here in Thailand, I started to look at the Theravada and came upon the Goenka method of meditation. I took my first 10 day retreat in April 2000 and 4 months later took another one. After that, like you, I was looking for a group to meditate with. But I found K. Sujin and DSG instead. Since then I have been reading most of the discussions here on DSG and going regularly almost every Saturday, to the foundation where we have live discussions with K. Sujin and friends like Ivan and Betty. I gave up formal practice quite early on for reasons you will come to understand if you continue reading on DSG and/or join the Saturday discussions at the foundation. ;-). If interested, call me on my mobile: 01 8254012 or at work: 02 2550680 and I shall provide you with further information. Hope you do come to the foundation. Metta, Sukinder (Sukin) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Nick, (Sukin and all), > > Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting. > --- Nicholas Benedict wrote: > > > Hi, This is my first post. > > I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a > > teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here > > for English speakers or foreigners? 47639 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:59pm Subject: Friendliness Frees ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Friendliness & Goodwill is the Ninth Mental Perfection: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Symbiosis Only friendliness can completely relinquish the poison of hate and anger! It's characteristic is promoting other being's welfare, it's function is to do only good, and it's manifestation is kindness, sympathy, & gentleness... The proximate cause of friendliness is seeing the good aspects of things! The proximate cause of understanding compassion is this very friendliness! Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance, this release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... What are the 11 Advantages of cultivating such Universal Friendliness? The four Brahma Viharas; The four Divine States: The four Supreme States; The four Infinite States: 'Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by persisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit. What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes up Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison, nor Weapons ! One easily Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm, & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment, nor Panic ! One reappears after death on the Brahma level, if one has penetrated to no higher level in this very life ! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Friendliness, by cultivating Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by properly consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a familiar supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected.' Anguttara Nikaya V 342 There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness pervading first one direction, then a second one, then a third one then the fourth one, as below so above, across & all around, everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is encompassing the whole world with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness, with a mind wide, developed, unbounded, cleared, exalted, pure & bright, free from hate and ill will ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of understanding compassion pervading first the front, then the right side, then the back, then the left side, as below so above, across & all around, all over, far & wide; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is perfusing the whole universe with a mind imbued with pity, with a spacious mind, a refined mind, infinite, cleared, pure & brilliant, freed from all anger and any trace of enmity ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of altruistic & sympathetic joy pervading the North, then the East, then the South, then the West, as below so above, across & all around, universally, infinitely; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is suffusing all galaxies with a mind full of genuine mutual & altruistic sympathetic joy, with an open mind, vast, limitless, purified, cleared, pure & shining, free from aversion and bitterness ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of balanced equanimity pervading first the frontal quadrant, then the right, then the rear & then the left quadrant, as below so above, across & all around; and everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is permeating the whole world with a mind satiated of balanced equanimity, calmed, with a mountain-like mind, cultivated, endless, cleared, pure & dazzling, freed from any irritation & resentment ...' So too, bhikkhus, others may speak to you timely or untimely, true or untrue, gentle or harsh, beneficial or for harmful, based on kindness or on bitter hate! If they abuse you verbally, you should train yourselves in this way: "Our minds will remain unaffected, we shall speak no angry words, we will dwell friendly and understanding, with thoughts of kindness and no inward anger. We shall remain friendly and beam goodwill towards that very person, and we shall dwell extending it to the entire universe, mentally overflowing, exalted, measureless & infinite in amiability, without any trace hostility nor ill-will." That is how you should train yourselves. Even if bandits were savagely to cut you up, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, one who harbours hate from that account, would not be one who carried out my teaching. Bhikkhus, you should keep this instruction on that Simile of the Saw constantly in mind. Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 21 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. Samyutta Nikaya. I 208 When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world -- above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. Jataka 37 The Bodhisatta once was born as the righteous king Ekaraja. His kingdom was taken by force and he & his son was buried in a pit to the neck... King Ekaraja, however neither resisted nor bore even slight ill will against the invaders. Later he remembered this as his ultimate perfection of friendliness. Ekaraja Jataka 303 For details see: The Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel007.html The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Chapter IX. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Quite Cordially, PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47640 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:24pm Subject: Symbiotic is Straight & Simple Appreciation bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Thank you for writing! :-) A true pleasure among friends...!!! Even Mutually advantageous... Thus Be Symbiotic ... : - ] 47641 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:59pm Subject: The Preliminary Requisites for Jhana Absorption... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the Requisites for Attaining the 1st Jhana Absorption? The proximate acute momentary causes: Absence of sense desire. Absence of ill will. Absence of lethargy & laziness. Absence of restlessness & regret. Absence of doubt & uncertainty. Presence of directed thought. Presence of sustained thinking. Presence of thrilled joy. Presence of pleasurable happiness. Presence of unified single-pointed focus. The preliminary long-standing requisites: Expressed as one single factor: Bliss ... !!! Expressed as 10 factors: Full self-control gained by purifying Morality!!! Guarding the Sense Doors.. Moderate Eating.. Wakefulness at night.. Prior life preliminary work with an meditation object.. Mastery in directing mind to the sign of absorption. Mastery in attaining first calm, then unified focus. Mastery in determining the duration in advance. Mastery in emergence from this exalted state. Mastery in reviewing the qualities of this state. The additional supporting qualities: Clean body & dwelling place. Skill in remembering & extending the sign. Skill in restraining the distracted mind. Skill in calming the agitated mind. Skill in encouraging the bored mind. Skill in observing the well working. Avoiding scatter-brained persons. Frequenting well focused friends. Reviewing the Liberations & Jhanas. Resolute determination to succeed. These are the necessary, sufficient & quite enabling factors, which are preliminary requisites for attaining the 1st Jhana... --- So guard the sign or count the cost! And what is gained will not be lost! Who fails to have his guard well maintained, Will lose each time, what he has gained.... Vism. --- Some core Canonical References on attaining the Jhana absorptions: Sutta Pitaka: Digha Nikaya: sutta 2 [i 73-77], 9 [i 182-184]. Majjhima Nikaya: sutta 8 [i 41-2], 39 [i 276-8], 77 [15-7], 111 [iii 25-9], 119 [iii 92-4]. Samyutta Nikaya: The two whole Jhana Samyuttas no: 34 and 54. Anguttara Nikaya: II [125-8, 193-6], III [22-6, 311, 427-8], IV [34, 406-40], V [207-9, 342-258]. Abhidhamma Pitaka: The Classification of States: Dhammasanghani: § 160-364, § 505-555, § 996 The Book of Analysis: Vibhanga: Chapter XII Analysis of Jhana pp 319-56, [244-275]. Points of Controversy: Kathavatthu: The questions on hallucinations, hearing, talking, transitions, and intervals in between and while in jhana. a.o... Conditional Relations: Patthana: Jhana is the 17th out of the 24 relations. Some excellent commentarial explanations on the Jhana absorptions: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. Chapter III-XI The Path of Freedom: Vimuttimagga ~ 1st century BC. Chapter IV-VIII Most Neatly Summarized in: The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Venerable Mahathera Henepola Gunaratana BPS: Wheel No. 351/353: Please review your meditation state honestly & exactly, so not to overestimate it; a common pitfall of pride ...!!! ____________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47642 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. gazita2002 hello Larry, I've never heard of a special breathing consciousness either, and you'll notice that I italic-ed the word responsible. I honestly can't answer in fine details any of this and at this stage I don;t have a need to know exactly; I do know 'I' breathe and that one day 'I' won't - cuti citta arises. Breathing, heart beating, hair growing, pancreas making insulin, they are pretty much all the same to me. It's all fairly gross under this shedding skin. This is maybe getting off topic so I'll leave it here and see if anyone else has more detail about this subject. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Azita: "its my understanding that the kamma that produces patisandhi > citta also produces the citta 'responsible' for breathing -" > > Hi Azita, > > Thanks for pitching in. Everything you said seemed reasonable except the > above. I've never heard of a special breathing consciousness, but I > couldn't find anything definitive in CMA. Do you think it could be two > different consciousnesses, one for in and one for out? Maybe we should > meditate on this. > > Larry 47643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati and panna nilovg Hi Phil, op 14-07-2005 03:34 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I found this from an old post. It keeps coming up. Nina > wrote: "Sati just attends to the characteristic of seeing when it > appears and then panna can at that moment perform its task of > illuminating the object." ...Is it the role of sati to bring an object to the forefront and hold it in place momentarily, if you will, so that panna can understand it, penetrate it, get at the characteristics? ------- N: When there is sati of the level of satipatthana there is non-forgetfulness of what appears now, one at a time, through one of the six doorways. This can be a nama or rupa, not a concept of a person or a tree. It is a present dhamma. It can be seen as present even though the object of sati has just fallen away. A process of cittas with sati and paññaa can follow very closely upon a process of cittas that experience a sense object through one of the doorways or a process with cittas accompanied by attachment, aversion, or paññaa. Also paññaa should be known as a condiitoned nama. Sati and paññaa arise, in the case you indicate above, at the same time, they experience the same object, but each perform their own function. Sati does not waste the opportunity to be aware of the object that presents itself and paññaa knows its characteristic. -------- Ph:I keep thinking of a gem merchant holding up (sati) a gem so that his > trained eye (panna) can penetrate the object of his attention and > know its characteristics clearly. ------ N: I think the focus should be mostly on understanding. What does paññaa understand? No matter it is intellectual understanding or beginning to be direct understanding. If we think too much of sati maybe we are tempted to 'do something' to have sati. -------- Ph: I assume the "seeing" above could > be any paramattha dhamma, in principle, at least. (There are limits > to what we can attend to.) ----- N: Yes. It has to be a paramattha dhamma, any object. We should not limit the object of awareness. When considering the satipatthana sutta, we see many, many subjects of daily life that can be a means of contemplation of paramattha dhammas. We are distracted, but we can be brought back to the reality appearing now. Hair, nails, postures, talking, eating, anything can remind us to develop understanding. Nina. 47644 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:53am Subject: Always in danger of Ignorance. nilovg Hi Phil, Some words in a previous post you used, stayed with me. Your insistance to have no expectations, and also your mentioning of a sense of urgency. Yes, when we realize how ignorant we are, there may be conditions for a sense of urgency. When we read suttas about the shortness of life and we listen to the Buddha's exhortations, there can be a sense of urgency that can condition the development of right understanding, not in the future, but now. But, as you said, no expectations. I think that in this way we can find the right balance between having no expectations and being patient, and on the other hand not being neglectful. When copying for Sarah, I was impressed by the following conversation with Kh Sujin. We can take her words about doing something with lobha to support sati in the right sense. *** Transcript: ****** Nina. 47645 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:53am Subject: some elaboration on saññaa. to Sarah nilovg Hi Sarah, When you meet Kh Sujin in August I have so specific questions, but it is helpful to hear more about our attachment. I would like to hear more about the role of saññaa that is a condition for so much attachment. Perhaps Kh. Sujin could elaborate on this? It has an enormous impact on us, does it not? I quote again from the tape I copied: Nina. 47646 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Kel (and Herman at the end) > > I thought afterwards that the following is a bit extreme - > > implying that there is no kusala when we do conventionally wholesome > > things, such as helping others, studying Dhamma etc. > > Indeed one of the dangers when taking anatta too "far". From what > I've observed DSG people are sufficiently wise not to fall into the > trap. So I just don't read it as radically as written and give people > benefit of the doubt. Yes, benefit of the doubt, that kind of generosity, is important here and everywhere in life. The Buddha talked about milk and water as a simile for how people with different approaches to Dhamma should interact. Easier said than done. I guess benefit of the doubt is akin to upekkha. > > For some reason, I have this wish that you would just spend like 30 > minutes just listening to the Acharn Sujin's tapes. Perhaps I'm used > to receiving dhamma when it's more foreground and not background. I > just have this feeling it would be of help to your progress. A little background to this. I mentionned to Kel off-list about how I listen to the tapes with them kind of in the background as I walk to the station, or cook, or this and that. On nights I have trouble sleeping because of the heat etc. Actually, despite what I wrote, Kel, there is a lot of the time that they are pretty much in the foreground. The interesting thing is how the mind drifts away and comes back. And the way certain things people say (usually Acharn Sujin) leap out and catch my attention. I stop the i-pod, and stand wherever I am to jot it down in a notebook, sometimes on a crowded sidewalk in the middle of Tokyo with people streaming by. I know that's a kind of greediness and clinging for results, but so be it. A wiser person would let it go with faith that the next time it came around the mind would catch it again, and again, and so on. Another interesting thing is the quality of voice. I think reading a post by someone is not as convincing as hearing them say it out loud, maybe because the rupa of the voice is conditioned by the citta, and the confidence in kusala or whatever rings through. It occured to me that I would like to read a bunch of my favourite DSG posts onto a tape, the ones that have really inspired me. Listening to them might be even more inspiring. Of course the citta would be impure because there would be so much self behind such an exercise. But anyone who hasn't listened to Acharn Sujin definitely should. Go to the files and listen to the clip from the India talks, Bodhgaya. I would also like to hear some talks in which A. Sujin isn't around. I think there might be more speculation by people, which can be interesting. Speculation tends to get shut down in a hurry by A. Sujin, which is a good thing on the whole. Sitting and listening in an intent way? No, that wouldn't do. Too much greed for knowledge in that, I'd say. Trying to suck every drop of wisdom out of the talks. The beauty is the way the accumulations that are arising at any one moment of listening latch on to different things every time. Helps us to understand our accumulations. On one day I'll hear that there are no people in reality and feel irritated. On another day, most days, I hear it and feel encouraged. In which of those cases is there more accumulated wisdom at work? More accumulated lobha? More accumulated dosa? Can't know for sure, but interesting to reflect on in an easygoing way. Metta, Phil p.s Hi Herman. Thanks for your post. Back to you in a few days. The hairs on my arm stood up when you mentionned Sixth Sense because I watched it on DVD the day before yesterday and it blew me away. What karuna and courage in the scene when the boy returns to his room to talk to the ghost, hear her out, help her, despite his fears. Great movie. 47647 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Sarah and Htoo, > > I think it's pretty clearly Htoo is wrong on this issue. There's > not much ambiguity left after Visuddhimagga passages. > > - Kel -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Kel, Thank you very much for your comment. I do know that especially texts expert would say that. I do see what is written even in abhidhammatthasangaha that vitakka do not arise in 2nd jhaana lokuttara kusala citta. I do know that according to texts I would be wrong. But I am stubborn in this matter of lokuttara citta while I am very flexible in other issues. What I believe is all lokuttara cittas must have all 8 maggangas. I already said what I believe. I am not referring to texts for this matter. I do know what the texts. Anyway what is important is to attain those states. With respect, Htoo Naing 47648 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:21am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Dear Herman, Please see below. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Htoo, This is very clear. Thank you. One further question below. > Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for > hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere > (in the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. > Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part > of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Herman. They are necessary. This means 'without them there is no hearing'. But what we have to notice is that 'with them there may or may not be hearing'. I mean 'hearing-consciousness' or 'ear-consciousness' or 'sotavinnaana citta'. Example: You do have both working ear. But you do not hear all the time. Cakkhu-ppasada arises when you hear. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47649 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > This is not as I have understood it. As I read the suttas it is quite > clear to me that the 5 sense bases are the eye, ear, nose, tongue and > body. These are all the physical organs which enable the entry of sense > objects. Are you saying that this is not so? If so what are you saying > that the sense bases are? > > With Metta, > > Evan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Evan, What you understood is right. But what I have been talking to Herman is about pasada ruupa. Pasada ruupa cannot be sensed by 1. eye 2. ear 3. nose 4. tongue 5. body. I was referring to these implications. Cochlea implant can be touched. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47650 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:28am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 05 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths Noble disciples know 4 Noble Truths very well. They see dukka (sufferings) as dukkha in right vision. They see the cause of suffering as it is in right vision. They see the cessation of suffering as it is in right vision. They see the path of cessation of suffering as it is in right vision. As there are 4 sacca or 4 truths there are 4 contemplations on Noble Truths or sacca. For those who have not seen Noble Truth they will be just contemplating that at right time such dhamma arises internally. So does externally. That is Noble Truths arise in other individuals when there are right conditions and perfection. Sometimes dhamma may perceived as Noble Truths arise internally and externally. There are causes of these arising. And there are vanishing factors of these Noble Truths. Sometime both origination and vanishing of Noble Truths are perceived. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47651 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (441) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) There are 89 total cittas or 121 total cittas. But they all cannot arise in any given individual because there are many conditions that support the arising of cittas in individuals. 1. arahatta phalatthana puggla This is an arahat. He has already eradicated all defilements unlike arahatta maggatthaana puggala who just eradicates all defilements. This means that arahats have done the job of fulfilling holy life and there are evidences that they are pure. The possible cittas that can arise in these puggala are a. 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas or 7 rootless resultant consciousness of unwholesome origin. These 5 pancavinnaana cittas or 5-sense-consciousness, 1 receiving consciousness and 1 investigating consciousness. b. 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas or 8 rootless resultant consciousness of wholesome origin. They are 5 poancavinnaana cittas or 5-sense-consciousness, 1 receiving consciousness, 1 happy investigating consciousness and 1 indifferent-feeling investigating consciousness. c. 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 rootless functional consciousness or inoperational consc. d. 8 mahakiriya cittas or 8 functional consciousness of sensuous plane e. 8 mahavipaaka cittas or 8 resultant consciousness of sensuous plane f. 5 ruupakiriya cittas or 5 rupa jhaanas or arahats g. 4 aruupakiriya cittas or 4 aruupa jhaanas of arahats i. 1 arahatta phala citta or 1 supramundane arahatta fruition cons. --- 44 cittas These 44 cittas can arise in arahats or 'arahatta phalatthaana puggalas. These individuals are also called asikkha. Sikkhati means 'train'. Sikkha means 'trainee' and they are still under training to become arahats. Asikkha means 'non-trainee' and they do not need any further training as they all have trained and become arahats. People will think that such and such bhikkhu is an arahat and so on. But in ultimate sense there is no bhikkhu, no man, no arahat. What is seen as an arahat is just an illusion on these individuals who are just combination of 5 khandhas. Among 5 khandhas, as vinnaana-kkhandha only these 44 cittas can arise as vinnaana and other cittas in 89 total cittas are impossible to arise for 'human arahats'. Along with these 44 cittas are their associated feeling called vedana. This is vedana-kkhandha. And there also is sanna in each of these 44 cittas. All these sanna are sanna-kkhandha. Apart from vedana and sanna there are other cetasikas in these 44 cittas and these cetasikas are called sankhaara-kkhandha. Apart from panca-vinnaana cittas or 5-sense-consciousness all other cittas of 44 arahatta-cittas arise at hadaya vatthu or they all have to depend on hadaya vatthu. This is ruupa-kkhandha. When cakkhu- vinnaana citta or eye-consciousness arises they arise at cakkhu pasada ruupa or at eyes and so also are other sense-consciousness and these 5 pasada ruupa are ruupa-kkhandha. When one lives according to mahasatipatthaana he or she will not find any arahats and he or she will only find Dhamma like ruupa or naama. Arahats as bahiddhika dhamma will be seen by the Dhamma practitioner as ruupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, and vinnaanakkhandha. In that individual of arahat there are 5 panca-pasada ruupa or 5- sense-sensitivities like eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. These are ajjhattika ruupakkhandha of that individual and when 5-sense- consciousness arise there are arammanas or objects. These 5 objects like 'visual object' 'sound object' 'smell object' 'taste object' and 'touch object' all of which are 1.'vanna' or colour or shape or form, 2. sadda or sound, 3. gandha or smell, 4. rasa or taste, 5. photthabba or touch object(pathavi, tejo, vayo) altogether 7 ruupa are bahiddhika ruupa. But they are not part of individual arahats. 2. Arahatta maggatthaana puggala This individual is where arahatta magga citta arise. So this individual is so unique that there is no other citta but arahatta magga citta. This citta arises at hadaya vatthu or heart base when the individual is a human being. So it(hadaya vatthu) is ruupakkhandha. Arahatta magga citta is vinnaanakkhandha. There are vedana and sanna in that citta as accompanying cetasika and they are vedanakkhandha and sannakkhandha. All other associated cetasikas are sankharakkhandha. In ultimate sense there is no arahatta maggatthaana puggala but just 5 aggregates. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47652 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:34am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Evan_Stamato... Htoo, Thanks for clearing this up for me. My understanding of Pali terms is very primitive and has been a hindrance to my participating in many discussions on this forum so could you please explain for me when pasada ruupa is? Thanks. With Meta, Evan ----------------------------- Dear Evan, What you understood is right. But what I have been talking to Herman is about pasada ruupa. Pasada ruupa cannot be sensed by 1. eye 2. ear 3. nose 4. tongue 5. body. I was referring to these implications. Cochlea implant can be touched. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47653 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Kel, and Herman) - In a message dated 7/14/05 8:13:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > > For some reason, I have this wish that you would just spend like 30 > minutes just listening to the Acharn Sujin's tapes. Perhaps I'm used > to receiving dhamma when it's more foreground and not background. I > just have this feeling it would be of help to your progress. A little background to this. I mentionned to Kel off-list about how I listen to the tapes with them kind of in the background as I walk to the station, or cook, or this and that. On nights I have trouble sleeping because of the heat etc. Actually, despite what I wrote, Kel, there is a lot of the time that they are pretty much in the foreground. The interesting thing is how the mind drifts away and comes back. And the way certain things people say (usually Acharn Sujin) leap out and catch my attention. I stop the i-pod, and stand wherever I am to jot it down in a notebook, sometimes on a crowded sidewalk in the middle of Tokyo with people streaming by. I know that's a kind of greediness and clinging for results, but so be it. A wiser person would let it go with faith that the next time it came around the mind would catch it again, and again, and so on. ====================== Phil, what you wrote here made me think of something related that I have observed: One benefit that I have observed in hearing, reading, and mulling over the Dhamma is an effect that this has at times that one is *not* hearing, reading, and mulling it over. I believe that there is a lot of subliminal mental processing of material previously experienced that leaves mental traces, some useful, some harmful depending especially on the nature of the original material (but of course also on one's deep-seated inclinations). Dhammic material usually results in wholesome, useful traces which often express themselves as follows: One may be going about one's day-to-day life observing all sorts of things arising, some pleasant, some not, and the observed phenomena trigger mental responses. Often, if one has made it a habit to frequently hear, read, and mull over Dhamma, the response to the observed phenomenon that is triggered is not the common one of craving or aversion or mental proliferation, but instead is a brief recollection of a wonderfully relevant element of Dhamma or even a fresh Dhamma-based or Dhamma-compatible insight that prompts a response of equanimity, satisfaction, joy, and understanding. This is a matter that I have directly observed and is a point often made by several DSG folks. It is a valid and important point, I believe. Clearly, as you know by now, I also think that this process is *essentially* supported by all the rest of the practice taught by the Buddha, including intentional cultivation of sila, intentional guarding of the senses - particularly cultivating relinquishment, the sine qua non of dhamma practice, intentional recollection to be mindful in ordinary living, and, yes, very importantly, regular "formal meditation". But my main point in this post is to zero in on the importance of hearing, reading, and contemplating the Dhamma. It is the seed that all the rest waters and brings to fruition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47654 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Evan wrote: Htoo, Thanks for clearing this up for me. My understanding of Pali terms is very primitive and has been a hindrance to my participating in many discussions on this forum so could you please explain for me when pasada ruupa is? Thanks. With Meta, Evan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo's reply: Pasada are ruupa. Ruupa are non-spiritual matters. Ruupa are material matters. Ruupa are more than physical matters. Pasaada are ruupa. Pasada means 'clearness' 'brightness' 'purity' and pasaada ruupas are 'sentient organs' 'sensitive surface' of physical materials. Eyes are physical materials. You can handle eyes. Likewise other special organs are all physical. These sensitive ruupa called pasaada ruupa all depend on these physical material. Physical materials are nothing but 'combination of 4 elements'. These elements are real elements and they are not like chemical element or physical element. Example a molecule of hydrogen is a matter. It is a material. It has a mass. It has a molecular weight. It has molecular weight of 2 as compared to other elements. But that single molecule of hydrogen is just a combination of '4 elements'. Anything that have physical mass are made up of 4 elements. These are physical matters. These are material matters. Pasaada ruupa are material matters. But they are not physical. But they all have to depend on physical matters. Without physical matters there cannot be any pasaada ruupa. Without cloth, there is no painting, without paper there is no print. Without physical body there is no gesture. So pasaada ruupa all have to depend on physical matters. So no ear, no cochlea implant there is no hearing. But even when there are ears or cochlea implant there may or may not be hearing. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-07-2005 01:56 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Re. body consciousness of breath rupas and mindfulness of breath rupas, > can we say mindfulness (sati) generates an intention to be conscious of > breath rupas? ----- N: I would say, when sati arises it is non-forgetful, mindful of breath. There are conditions for its arising, it does not generate anything, it arises and it is simply aware. L: If so, then mindfulness of breath rupas is an intentional > body consciousness generated by mindfulness. ------ N: When we say body-consciousness, this is only a vipaakacitta experiencing a tangible object. It just experiences that, it is passive, it does not know any characteristic of breath. -------- L: Assuming that is correct, > what is the difference between a desirous intention and a mindfulness > intention to be conscious of an object? ------- N: desirous intention: someone may think that he has to do something in order to have sati. Going here, going there, doing this, doing that, we can find out that this is mostly motivated by lobha. No wonder, we are in the cycle because of ignorance and craving. A person may be so taken in by lobha, that he does not like to hear about his deepest motives. Moreover, lobha can be very subtle. You say: mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. Nina. 47656 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-07-2005 02:11 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > One more thought on dosa. Can we say there are only three possible > responses to painful feeling, insight, hatred, or bewilderment? ---- N: Aversion is likely to arise, and this goes together with ignorance. When there is right attention to the object, there can be insight that realizes the characteristic of feeling. But, when one is not that far yet, there can be thinking with kusala citta and understanding of the level of listening, not yet direct understanding. Nina. 47657 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:01am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Howard, and all > Phil, what you wrote here made me think of something related that I have > observed: One benefit that I have observed in hearing, reading, and mulling > over the Dhamma is an effect that this has at times that one is *not* hearing, > reading, and mulling it over. I believe that there is a lot of subliminal > mental processing of material previously experienced that leaves mental traces, > some useful, some harmful depending especially on the nature of the original > material (but of course also on one's deep-seated inclinations). Ph: No doubt about it, Howard. I remember when I was keen on Thich Nhat Hahn he wrote something that really stuck with me - "when you are upset, it is because of something you consumed." > Dhammic material usually results in wholesome, useful traces which often > express themselves as follows: One may be going about one's day-to- day life > observing all sorts of things arising, some pleasant, some not, and the observed > phenomena trigger mental responses. Often, if one has made it a habit to > frequently hear, read, and mull over Dhamma, the response to the observed > phenomenon that is triggered is not the common one of craving or aversion or mental > proliferation, but instead is a brief recollection of a wonderfully relevant > element of Dhamma or even a fresh Dhamma-based or Dhamma- compatible insight that > prompts a response of equanimity, satisfaction, joy, and understanding. This > is a matter that I have directly observed and is a point often made by several > DSG folks. It is a valid and important point, I believe. No doubt about it. Of course, when we remember that there are so many other conditions at work - usually propelling us (me at least) in subtle or not so subtle akusala direction - we are protected from having exccessive faith in the conditioning power of reading suttas, listening to talks etc. But there is no doubt that wisdom does arise to steer us in the right direction in daily life. No doubt. > Clearly, as you know by now, I also think that this process is > *essentially* supported by all the rest of the practice taught by the Buddha, including > intentional cultivation of sila, intentional guarding of the senses - > particularly cultivating relinquishment, the sine qua non of dhamma practice, > intentional recollection to be mindful in ordinary living, and, yes, very importantly, > regular "formal meditation". I believe the conditions for people to benefit from "formal meditation" and other seemingly intentional practices (actually conditioned) do indeed arise. Take Kom. He meditated, then had the chance to hear A. Sujin and saw through the error of meditating without right understanding of what was behind it, and now conditions have developed for him in a way that has him ordaining, and presumably meditating again, with better understanding. Perhaps they will change again, who knows? Perhaps I will meditate some day too. I am meeting Rob M for the first time next week. Maybe meeting and talking to him will be a decisive condition for becoming a meditator the way meeting Rob K was for deepening my enthusiasm for Abhidhamma. We have no way of knowing how conditions will work out. A ramble there. >But my main point in this post is to zero in on > the importance of hearing, reading, and contemplating the Dhamma. It is the > seed that all the rest waters and brings to fruition. Yes, I like these gardeing metaphors. I would say Dhamma is the rain that falls on the parched soil of our minds and waters the seed that is understanding - I stole that from Thich Nhat Hahn. We listen and listen and read and read and reflect and the rain of Dhamma falls but we don't go out in the field and try to push the plants to grow - if we do, they won't grow. Metta, Phil 47658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, op 13-07-2005 15:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > You wrote, "Vitakka is often translated as applied thought.", but what > about thinking? What about vicara? ------ N: Vicara arises together with vitakka in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere. It is translated as sustained or discursive thinking. It keeps the citta occupied with the object. Those are words to describe their different functions, but they are hard to pinpoint. They teach us that citta needs many cetasikas to cognize an object. They are different from moment to moment, they can be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. ------- T: Are vitakka & vicara the product of thinking, or is thinking the outcome > of vitakka & vicara, or does thinking have nothing to do with "thought"? ------ N: When we use the word thinking this denotes many different different cittas cognizing different objects, and mostly we mean concepts. We are thinking of a situation or event. Also during such moments vitakka and vicara perform their functions. But they also accompany cittas such as the sense-door adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness, cittas which have as object a rupa. Thus vitakka and vicara are not the same as thinking in conventional sense. They arise with the citta also when we are not thinking of concepts. ------- T:> More important, is thinking necessary and sufficient for conditioning > insight knowledges? Is thinking important in vipassana? ----- N: I would like to stress understanding. Considering the Dhamma with understanding. When listening, there can be wise reflection, and also mindfulness of nama and rupa if there are the right conditions, such as in the Buddha's time. They listened to him and, we read, they attained enlightenment. That means: also when listening they developed satipatthana. Nobody can tell what is sufficient for a particular person. We do not know our past lives, we do not know the accumulated conditions of each one of us. Nina. 47659 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/14/05 10:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard, and all > Phil, what you wrote here made me think of something related that I have > observed: One benefit that I have observed in hearing, reading, and mulling > over the Dhamma is an effect that this has at times that one is *not* hearing, > reading, and mulling it over. I believe that there is a lot of subliminal > mental processing of material previously experienced that leaves mental traces, > some useful, some harmful depending especially on the nature of the original > material (but of course also on one's deep-seated inclinations). Ph: No doubt about it, Howard. I remember when I was keen on Thich Nhat Hahn he wrote something that really stuck with me - "when you are upset, it is because of something you consumed." > Dhammic material usually results in wholesome, useful traces which often > express themselves as follows: One may be going about one's day-to- day life > observing all sorts of things arising, some pleasant, some not, and the observed > phenomena trigger mental responses. Often, if one has made it a habit to > frequently hear, read, and mull over Dhamma, the response to the observed > phenomenon that is triggered is not the common one of craving or aversion or mental > proliferation, but instead is a brief recollection of a wonderfully relevant > element of Dhamma or even a fresh Dhamma-based or Dhamma- compatible insight that > prompts a response of equanimity, satisfaction, joy, and understanding. This > is a matter that I have directly observed and is a point often made by several > DSG folks. It is a valid and important point, I believe. No doubt about it. Of course, when we remember that there are so many other conditions at work - usually propelling us (me at least) in subtle or not so subtle akusala direction - we are protected from having exccessive faith in the conditioning power of reading suttas, listening to talks etc. But there is no doubt that wisdom does arise to steer us in the right direction in daily life. No doubt. > Clearly, as you know by now, I also think that this process is > *essentially* supported by all the rest of the practice taught by the Buddha, including > intentional cultivation of sila, intentional guarding of the senses - > particularly cultivating relinquishment, the sine qua non of dhamma practice, > intentional recollection to be mindful in ordinary living, and, yes, very importantly, > regular "formal meditation". I believe the conditions for people to benefit from "formal meditation" and other seemingly intentional practices (actually conditioned) do indeed arise. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Being conditioned doesn't exclude being conditioned in part by intention. Kamma is intention. Kusala kamma is kusala intention. ---------------------------------------- Take Kom. He meditated, then had the chance to hear A. Sujin and saw through the error of meditating without right understanding of what was behind it, and now conditions have developed for him in a way that has him ordaining, and presumably meditating again, with better understanding. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is wonderful that Kom is going forth! I do indeed hope that it will afford him the opportunity to return to meditation. --------------------------------------- Perhaps they will change again, who knows? Perhaps I will meditate some day too. -------------------------------------- Howard: Decision making does play a role in that, you know! ;-) ------------------------------------- I am meeting Rob M for the first time next week. Maybe meeting and talking to him will be a decisive condition for becoming a meditator the way meeting Rob K was for deepening my enthusiasm for Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------ Howard: I've gained enormously from my contacts, regretfully not in person, with both these "Robs" ;-), and I wish the same gain for you. ---------------------------------- We have no way of knowing how conditions will work out. A ramble there. >But my main point in this post is to zero in on > the importance of hearing, reading, and contemplating the Dhamma. It is the > seed that all the rest waters and brings to fruition. Yes, I like these gardeing metaphors. I would say Dhamma is the rain that falls on the parched soil of our minds and waters the seed that is understanding - I stole that from Thich Nhat Hahn. We listen and listen and read and read and reflect and the rain of Dhamma falls but we don't go out in the field and try to push the plants to grow - if we do, they won't grow. Metta, Phil ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47660 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Rob K, Nina,and all I have let this one sit for a few days as I was hearing a fair bit about detachment in the talks. Of course my intention was not to catch A. Sujin in an error, though I did want to do that for some reason when I first started listening to her. Things have changed! :) I will respond to Rob and then have added what Nina wrote in another response I will try to avoid rambling as its just about bedtime. > > Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin > > said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I don't > > know how there can be detachment from the beginning. > ++++++++++ > Dear Phil, > I don't think there was any error in wording by A. Sujin. > The path is always associated with alobha- detachment- and wisdom. > If it is not it is something else, some other path. This is even at > the very weakest level, when detachment and wisdom may be weak. Ph: "Associated with" suggests in principle, intellectually, and yes that is true, for sure. All we have to do is remember that the Buddha almost didn't teach because he knew it went against the way of the world, which is attachment and clinging. So yes, absolutely, in principle Dhamma must be about detachment. But as for the arising of actual detachment, of the cetasika alobha, it is so weak, as you said, so rare. I was going to quote it but I will just paraphrase the stirring talk that A. Sujin gives at the very beginning of the India talks (available in the files) at Bodhgaya. The way there is "always" (her word) ignorance arising after a moment of seeing. Always lobha, always clinging to people and things. Of course there are "holes in the roof of lobha" that the mind builds, but they are are very few and very far between. So when A. Sujin says that "there must be detachment from the beginning" I think she means "there must be an intellectual appreciation of detachment from the beginning" rather than actual detachment, "or there can be moments of detachment from the beginnning" or something like that. Otherwise we are encouraged to try to have something that we cannot have yet. I heard a great line today from her: "you can't have something that you haven't accumulated." We haven't accumulated much detachment, at least I haven't. So there cannot be much detachment yet, only thinking about detachment. But that is a good place to start. > N: I add something to what Rob said. I think it is helpful to understand first the difference between sati and forgetfulness. Difficult point, for me too! I like to discuss this. Perhaps you can add. We are usually forgetful while we walk around, looking at the table, or a cup, or a diamond. When our objective is not dana, sila or mental development, we think with akusala citta, mostly with lobha. But our listening to tapes, discussions or reading of suttas may have sunk in and can condition unexpectedly a moment of understanding one object through one doorway. Ph: This is like what Howard was saying. Indeed the listening has sunk in and may bear fruit. In my case, I don't feel it's one object through one doorway yet but that may be coming closer, who knows. And maybe there has been that. But there is intelletual detachment that arises, strong and clear. Like when I heard A. Sujin talking soon after I heard about my mother's illness. That will stick with me. A. Sujin became my teacher on that day, rather than an especially talkative member of the Bangkok talks! It was intellectual, I think, but so clear. I was jogging at the time, listening to the talk. On a wide open sports field, facing the sun, with the endorphins flowing as well. Ping! It was so clear. Now, how about later in daily life, when I'm sitting with an annoying student or co-worker, or a sexually attractive one, or am tired, or hungry or scared? If there is an understanding of one object through one door, that is true detachment, but if there is reflecting on metta, or the woman being my sister, or something like that, it is so conceptual. I remember asking Rob K why similes for the khandas such as deceitful servant or illness or so on were necessary. Why not go more directly to something more elemental? Because we are not there yet, I guess. Rambling. Nina: Then there is a level of sati, sati with intellectual understanding stemming from listening, or sati with direct understanding. It does not matter and if we mind, there is lobha to an idea we have of sati. Ph: Ah, interesting. Yes, when i first came to DSG I used to wonder about the levels of sati and ask about it. But it is one of the things that we don't need to try to figure out. We know what we *can* and *do* know, at any one moment, not what we want to know because we think it is necessary to make progress. I will still wonder at times and ask, as I did about sati and panna today. (Thanks for your answer there, Nina. I will note it.) Nina: When we begin to realize that it is only visible object that can be seen, not a diamond, there is some detachment at that moment. Someone bluntly said: satipatthana takes the spice out of life. Ph: It's sobering, that's for sure. We don't get swept up in enthusiasms to the same degree. But that's OK. BTW, something I've wanted to ask, not that it really matters. In one of the older talks, Christine mentions this, or Sarah quotes her, about how Dhamma seems to take the spice out of life. Some man answers her very eloquently that that won't because our minds are running in a conditioned way and the stories will keep arising whether we want them to or not. Who was that masked man? He's the same fellow who talks to the German meditator using a car metaphor. I really find the way he talks very stirring, but he doesn't show up very often in the talks. Who cares, right? The point is the understanding, not the people involved, but... Well, I will stop there. My beloved New York Yankees are playing the hated Boston Red Sox this weekend so I will proably disappear until Monday. Baseball is the only thing that is more important than the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Phil 47661 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 7/14/05 10:39:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep, op 13-07-2005 15:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > You wrote, "Vitakka is often translated as applied thought.", but what > about thinking? What about vicara? ------ N: Vicara arises together with vitakka in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere. It is translated as sustained or discursive thinking. It keeps the citta occupied with the object. Those are words to describe their different functions, but they are hard to pinpoint. They teach us that citta needs many cetasikas to cognize an object. They are different from moment to moment, they can be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. ------- T: Are vitakka & vicara the product of thinking, or is thinking the outcome > of vitakka & vicara, or does thinking have nothing to do with "thought"? ------ N: When we use the word thinking this denotes many different different cittas cognizing different objects, and mostly we mean concepts. We are thinking of a situation or event. Also during such moments vitakka and vicara perform their functions. But they also accompany cittas such as the sense-door adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness, cittas which have as object a rupa. Thus vitakka and vicara are not the same as thinking in conventional sense. They arise with the citta also when we are not thinking of concepts. ------- T:> More important, is thinking necessary and sufficient for conditioning > insight knowledges? Is thinking important in vipassana? ----- N: I would like to stress understanding. Considering the Dhamma with understanding. When listening, there can be wise reflection, and also mindfulness of nama and rupa if there are the right conditions, such as in the Buddha's time. They listened to him and, we read, they attained enlightenment. That means: also when listening they developed satipatthana. Nobody can tell what is sufficient for a particular person. We do not know our past lives, we do not know the accumulated conditions of each one of us. Nina. ============================ In the context of the jhanas I've seen vitakka described as an initial application of attention to the meditation object (like a "hitting against") and vicara described as a sustained application of attention (like a "rubbing against"), with "thinking" not being involved at all. This understanding rings true to me on the basis of my meditative experience in that the initial hitting against and subseqent rubbing against are events that actually occur and that lead onwards to calmness and clarity, and these operations will actually be subverted by thinking. So, in particular I'm disinclined to view vicara as discursive thinking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47662 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:14am Subject: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Sarah, > When you meet Kh Sujin in August I have so specific questions, [...] [...snap] > This is followed by hearing, receiving-consciousness, > determining-consciousness and the other cittas arising in processes. Saññaa > accompanies each citta and marks the sound. Since saññaa marks the object > from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? > The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of ignorance.> > Nina. Hi Nina and Sarah, I would have one follow up question to you Nina. What are these pictures-memories-recollections of sanna marks which go through this mind one after another? I observe kind of "picture-flashes" triggering various reactions, and I am curious in mechanism of this thing. with respect, Agrios 47663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) nilovg Hi Phil (and Howard), op 14-07-2005 14:12 schreef Philip op philco777@...:> And the way certain > things people say (usually Acharn Sujin) leap out and catch my > attention. I stop the i-pod, and stand wherever I am to jot it down > in a notebook, sometimes on a crowded sidewalk in the middle of > Tokyo with people streaming by. I know that's a kind of greediness > and clinging for results, but so be it. ------- N: You listen to have more understanding. You jot down so that you do not forget. I do the same when we have a long walk, I have paper and pencil and jot down what I reflect on, otherwise it goes with the wind. I reflect on the mails I have to asnwer, not so easy and as James said, quite a responsibility. Do not take it that it is only attachment, but of course there is attachment in between: we like to write, we like to see, to hear, to be alive. But Howard expressed it so well: ------- Ph: > Another interesting thing is the quality of voice. I think reading > a post by someone is not as convincing as hearing them say it out > loud,.... > But anyone who hasn't listened to Acharn Sujin definitely should. -------- N: Yes, I realized this when transcribing tape. When you hear her say: we are always in danger of ignorance, it has much more impact. Such earnestness and sense of urgency and said with true compassion. Never in order to win an argument. Nina. 47664 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:39am Subject: life faculty rupa, femininity and masculinity nilovg Hi Howard, in an aside to Herman you mentioned that you find life faculty, femininity and masculinity difficult to understand. Yes, of course, they are subtle rupas. The Visuddhimagga states that subtle rupas are hard to penetrate. They are different from the coarse rupas such as the sense objects and sense bases. Perhaps it may be useful to consider the following points, or perhaps you may not find them relevant, it does not matter, I post it anyway. I find it helpful to study these rupas because the study helps me to see more conditions for my life and this will lead to less clinging to self. These three rupas are originated by kamma. At the first moment of our life (here in the human plane) kamma produced together with the rebirth-consciousness three groups of rupas: one with bodysense, one with sex, one with the heartbase, the physical base for cittas. In each group there is the rupa life faculty to support the group. Later on Kamma rpoduces eyesense and the other senses and in each group there is life faculty. This rupa makes the body so different from dead matter, such as a table. The femininity and masculinity rupa are of great influence to our life, our appearance, our occupations, conduct, etc. We read in the Co, to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A.): It pervades the whole body. But it arises and falls away just like all the other rupas. The sex rupas and life faculty are conditioned by kamma and so fragile. When kamma no longer produces rupas of this body I am a corpse. I cling to my appearance as a woman, I cling to life. All the conditioning factors that keep this body going are in a very delicate balance. Some rupas are originated by kamma, some by citta, some by nutrition and some by heat. All these rupas fall away and so long as there are conditions they are replaced. Before we know the body we cling to collapses. Again, the study of rupas helps us to have a sense of urgency. Nina. 47665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Howard, never mind about the names. The Vis. describes them as jhanafactors and there vicara is more subtle, vitakka is coarse and the meditator needs them in the beginninmg, but not in the higher jhanas when there is more calm. Vicara is subsequently abandoned, but some people can abandon both at the second stage of jhana. Nina. op 14-07-2005 16:51 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > This understanding rings > true to me on the basis of my meditative experience in that the initial > hitting > against and subseqent rubbing against are events that actually occur and that > lead onwards to calmness and clarity, and these operations will actually be > subverted by thinking. So, in particular I'm disinclined to view vicara as > discursive thinking. 47666 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon ksheri3 Evan, not very tricky, you can do better than that. "As still as the rock" oh are you sooooooo into this "a priori" devotion to ego and creationism, a single point where the world emanates from and is dependent upon. Are you hiding in the Reagan-Bush-Limbaugh admins. could possibly be a member of the Liddy admin. The "rock" as a symbol of "purity" and how does this work with glass housing? Is purity symbolized as a rock and where can I find this representation? Maybe the castles of the Crusaders are you reference, sorry I rode with the Mongols so we didn't have such luxuries. ... As I said Evan, you can do better than that. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > colette: ever go whitewater rafting or zodiak rafting? We can pressume > that the Stream of Consciousness is a peacfule ride huh? > What causes, in the buddhist tradition of Dependent Causation, the > ripple in the smooth surface of the conscious stream? Could it be Bam > Bam or is it Pebbles? Do they flow in the stream or are they stagnant, > crystalized to, secure to, the bottom where you surely can find cat- fish > and other bottom feeders? Don't you find it interesting that kamma would > be issued to a rock or a pebble forcing that rock or pebble to the > bottom where it is to interupt the Stream of Consciousness? Is the rock > or pebble aware of the kamma? In some people's case they act as > deterents to competing for the limitation of money, of power, and that > of taking the power and money away from a status quo. Still, if a > persons tries to act as a rock or pebble then they are playing the game > of deception where we find the sheep's clothing adorned on a wolf. > Surely that person is subject to the most horrendous of kamma, then, > because of their deception i.e. the webs we weave..., the 3 Kelipothic > nogah (3 qliphothic evils not to be approached by man), All The Kings > Men, etc. > ------------------------------- > For one that has made ones mind as still as a rock, there is no > deception. There is purity. Nor is it stagnant - it is clear and bright. > > > > > > Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as > > they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a > > finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and > cessation. It > > is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle > > experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or > > abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions > > attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also > were > > able to attain some of the path and fruits. > > colette: <....> > You are suggesting a wonderful idea, so original, and who could have > ever thought of it: only have a single goal and repeat the same message > over & over & over &... <...> do you suggest that the Bhikkhus path is > the only path and that it is that path which should be the path everyone > fallows or pursues? <....> > --------------------------- > There is no point in originality when the Buddha has expounded this > Dhamma so perfectly. Repetition is a tool used in the suttas to get the > message across. colette: who said anything wrong or incorrect about using the technique? I know I do it, have done it and will continue to apply the same technique in the future. I simply wanted to call attention to the fact that what people are doing is ritual behavior. Every morning when you go to work, this is ritual behavior. Identify it, accept it, but don't go running around trying to pull the wool over my eyes saying that it is something other. See, that behavior of atttempting to put the sheeps clothing onto me is a hostile behavior and will be met with the same or greater hostility, in defense of my freedom and individuality. gots to go. toodles, colette 47667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: driving a car and sati. nilovg Hi Herman, op 14-07-2005 00:20 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > Is a moment of satipatthana the same as a moment of not papanca(ing)? ------ N: The papancas, proliferations are: clinging without wrong view, clinging with wrong view and clinging with conceit. These arise only with akusala citta. When there is dana, sila or mental development, the citta is kusala, and thus no papancas. When you are thinking and the objective is not dana, sila or mental development the citta is akusala, but not necessarily citta with papancas, although there are many, many moments of clinging. There may also be dosa or fear, these are not papancas. Thus, a moment of satipatthana is not the same as a moment of not papanca, but the papanca has no chance at the moment of satipatthana. BTW, I hope you will write a report of your meeting with Sarah and Jon and of your conversation. Nina. 47668 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon Evan_Stamato... Colette, Evan, not very tricky, you can do better than that. "As still as the rock" oh are you sooooooo into this "a priori" devotion to ego and creationism, a single point where the world emanates from and is dependent upon. Are you hiding in the Reagan-Bush-Limbaugh admins. could possibly be a member of the Liddy admin. The "rock" as a symbol of "purity" and how does this work with glass housing? Is purity symbolized as a rock and where can I find this representation? Maybe the castles of the Crusaders are you reference, sorry I rode with the Mongols so we didn't have such luxuries. ... As I said Evan, you can do better than that. -------------------------------------- The rock is steady. The mind once it gains its steadyness is also like a rock. That is all I need to say about that. -------------------------------------- colette: who said anything wrong or incorrect about using the technique? I know I do it, have done it and will continue to apply the same technique in the future. I simply wanted to call attention to the fact that what people are doing is ritual behavior. Every morning when you go to work, this is ritual behavior. Identify it, accept it, but don't go running around trying to pull the wool over my eyes saying that it is something other. See, that behavior of atttempting to put the sheeps clothing onto me is a hostile behavior and will be met with the same or greater hostility, in defense of my freedom and individuality. gots to go. toodles, colette -------------------------------------- Since the dhammapada adequately addresses the issue of a response to a perceived aggression, I shall quote it in answer to the above: "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. Dhammapada 3-5 Translated by Ven Buddharakkhita (www.metta.lk) With Metta, Evan 47669 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, Thank you again. == > Herman: > > Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at > all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Herman. They are necessary. This means 'without them there is no > hearing'. But what we have to notice is that 'with them there may or > may not be hearing'. > > I mean 'hearing-consciousness' or 'ear-consciousness' > or 'sotavinnaana citta'. Example: You do have both working ear. But > you do not hear all the time. > > Cakkhu-ppasada arises when you hear. > == OK. Understood. But this does not explain that ear, or cochlear implant, is not ayatana (sense base). If a skillful surgeon were to implant an orange peel into a deaf man's skull, and skillfully connect it to the brain, there would never be hearing. Orange peel is not sense-base. Ear and cochlear implant in a living body allow for both hearing and listening.( I appreciate that you previously made mention of how hearing is to be defined.) I appreciate that I do not *listen* all the time, even though I have two very nice ears :-). But whether I *hear* all the time or not is not a matter of or for awareness. That needs to be deduced by other means. For myself, I have no doubt that I heard well before I was born, and even learned to attend to my mothers voice while still in the womb. So to sum up, I am focusing on the paramattha dhamma of sense base, not pasada rupa. Whether there is sense base when there is no hearing is not the question. The question is, when there is hearing via cochlear implant, is that the sense-base? Kind Regards Herman 47670 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the b egberdina Hi Colette and (Evan), > > colette: who said anything wrong or incorrect about using the > technique? I know I do it, have done it and will continue to apply > the same technique in the future. I simply wanted to call attention > to the fact that what people are doing is ritual behavior. Every > morning when you go to work, this is ritual behavior. Identify it, > accept it, but don't go running around trying to pull the wool over > my eyes saying that it is something other. See, that behavior of > atttempting to put the sheeps clothing onto me is a hostile behavior > and will be met with the same or greater hostility, in defense of my > freedom and individuality. > I accept that you perceive hostility, but you may be interested to know that I don't. It is not a matter of who is right or wrong in their beliefs, but more a matter of how we are all caught in our home-spun web of beliefs. What would happen if we stopped spinning, even for a sec? Kind Regards Herman 47671 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Nina: "When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful." Hi Nina, First, let's agree that understanding (paññaa) is rare but mindfulness (sati) is not so rare. To me, mindfulness remembers to be conscious of the object (or simply "presence") but doesn't particularly understand anything. And then a body consciousness follows (in the case of mindfulness of breathing). There is nothing particularly profound about this consciousness except that it is consciousness of a reality and one-pointedness is evident. And it seems to me that the arising of this consciousness is conditioned by intentionality although a body consciousness highlighted by one-pointedness could arise spontaneously. But I don't see that mindfulness is playing a role in that case, unless it is to intentionally prolong one-pointed consciousness by repitition. What does mindfulness remember if not remember to be conscious in a certain way (thereby necessitating intention)? At the moment I am leaning toward the idea that understanding (paññaa) conditions the manifestation of the body consciousness so that elemental nature (sabhava) is revealed directly through body consciousness. If understanding arises after the body consciousness, the understanding is more like a commentary and that seems somewhat unsatisfactory to me in terms of direct experience. Although it may make sense to say the three general characteristics are recognized after the subsiding of body consciousness. I'm going to look in Vism. to see if I can find some more clues. Larry 47672 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Evan_Stamato... Hi Htoo, There is sense base, there is sense object. When sense base and sense object come together, sense consciousness arises. This is contact. This is what I have understood from the suttas and books I have read on the subject. Do you mean to tell me that somewhere in-between this process ther is another thing called a pasada ruupa? I still don't understand how pasada ruupa fits in with the process of contact. With Metta, Evan 47673 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Sutta name egberdina Hi everyone, Does the following sutta go by any other name. I would like to be able to compare this translation with others. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/a_little_spell_of_emptiness.htm Kind Regards Herman 47674 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard {Attn. Ven. Samahita, Larry, Mike} - Thank you Nina for the answers, from the Abhidhamma perspective, to my (many) questions on vitakka & vicara, thinking & thought . Thank you, Howard, I am glad to read your comment that is purely based on meditative experience. I do appreciate both perspectives. Your answers in #47658, Nina, that I like a lot, are as follows. Nina's perspective: # Vicara arises together with vitakka in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere. It keeps the citta occupied with the object. .... citta needs many cetasikas to cognize an object. # When we use the word thinking this denotes many different different cittas cognizing different objects, and mostly we mean concepts. We are thinking of a situation or event. # Vitakka and vicara are not the same as thinking in conventional sense. They arise with the citta also when we are not thinking of concepts. Howard's 3 points (#47661): (1) >In the context of the jhanas I've seen vitakka described as an initial >application of attention to the meditation object (like a "hitting >against") and vicara described as a sustained application of attention >(like a "rubbing against"), with "thinking" not being involved at all. (2) >This understanding rings true to me on the basis of my meditative >experience in that the initial hitting against and subseqent rubbing against >are events that actually occur and that lead onwards to calmness and >clarity, and these operations will actually be subverted by thinking. Tep: This is also true with my experience: vitakka & vicara during a concentration practice (such as the 1st tetrad of anapanasati) is very much like the deep attention required in reading a profound sutta. Calmness leads to clarity of understanding without thinking out in words. This kind of understanding is similar to sampajanna. (3) >So, in particular I'm disinclined to view vicara as discursive thinking. Tep : Yes, Howard. The connotation of the word "discursive thinking" is that it produces wandering or rambling thoughts, and hence it is not the same as 'vicara' the jhana factor. Nina(#47665): >Never mind about the names. The Vis. describes them as >jhanafactors and there vicara is more subtle, vitakka is coarse >and the meditator needs them in the beginning, but not in the higher >jhanas when there is more calm. Tep: An unusually knowledgable and highly experienced Thai Forest monk (who probably did not read the Visuddhimagga) was onced asked to explain mind-object(dhammaarammana) and thinking. He said that vedana-khandha, sanna-khandha, and sankhara-khandha were mind objects. Thinking, he said, was the 11 annasamaana cetasika (phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samaadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, vicaara, adhimokkha, viriya, piti, chanda). And he added that although the 50 cetasika were defined as 'sankhara-khandha', only these 11 cetasika were "true" sankhara-khandha, and that they had to be known by the meditator as dukkha. What is your thought on the monk's remarks? Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > never mind about the names. The Vis. describes them as 47675 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta name lbidd2 Hi Herman, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html Larry 47676 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta name upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/14/05 7:50:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi everyone, Does the following sutta go by any other name. I would like to be able to compare this translation with others. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/a_little _spell_of_emptiness.htm Kind Regards Herman ============================= I believe it may be MN 121, The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness, which you can find at the following ATI url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47677 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 248 - Attachment/lobha (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha)] Akusala dhammas are altogether different from kusala dhammas. Akusala dhammas are impure, they are dangerous and they lead to sorrow. As we have seen, there are four akusala cetasikas which arise with every akusala citta: moha (ignorance), ahirika (shamelessness), anottappa (recklessness) and uddhacca (restlessness). Apart from these four akusala cetasikas there are several other akusala cetasikas which can accompany akusala citta. Lobha, attachment or greed, is another akusala cetasika. Lobha does not arise with every akusala citta, it can arise only with eight types of citta, the eight types of lobha-múla-citta(1). Lobha is a “root”, hetu. The lobha-múla-cittas have both moha and lobha as their roots. The Dhammasangaùi (§1059), in the section where it deals with lobha as hetu, gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to illustrate its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more subtle such as hoping or expecting. It is a “bondage” because it binds beings in the round of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind(2). *** 1) See my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter IV. 2)See the Atthasåliní II, Book II, Chapter II, 362-367. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47678 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Tep, James, RobK & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > tepsastri@... quotes Sarah as saying: > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > and replies to this by quoting the Anupada Sutta, which I agree > unequivocally > shows the role jhanas played in Sariputtas full awakening. .... S: I don' think there's any question about 'the role jhanas played' as such, but about whether the texts state in this case they were used as basis for the attainment of arahantship (although I had previously been referring to his attainment of sotapatti magga). I listened again to A.Sujin's comment and I think she is questioning whether there's any categorical statement to indicate jhanas as basis for arahantship. As we know, processes of cittas are extremely rapid and unless the process with lokuttara cittas immediately succeeds that with jhana cittas, the latter cannot be said to be used as basis. When the lokuttara cittas arise in the case of a great disciple, all the special powers and abilities of being such (in this case, the first disciple)automatically follow. BB's commentary note to the Anupada sutta says 'The Elder Sariputta cultivated serenity and insight in paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he entered the attainment of cessation, and after emerging from it he attained arahantship.' I'm also thinking of the quote James gave from Theragatta 995,996 about how Sariputta said he gained released whilst listening. As you, Howard, and others have streseed, whilst fanning the Buddha he was slipping in and out of jhanas*, but as James also said Sariputta also emphasised 'it was his listening to the Dhamma-preaching, directly from the Buddha, which caused his release.' I'll follow this up again with K.Sujin, but I think her point was that unless it clearly states a jhana was used as basis, we can't assume this. Btw, Howard, unsurprisingly, I'm not one who doubts the Anupada Sutta, but I'm certainly not wise enough to appreciate the fine details even intellectually. Metta, Sarah *also see RobK's earlier message on this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38587 47679 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Herman, Kel, RobK, Tep), --- upasaka@... wrote: >Herman: But I think that > some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in > the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions > are remarkably anatomical. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Aha! Suddenly an Abhidhammika, eh? ;-)) > --------------------------------------- .... S: I think he's preparing for a good discussion in the Botanical gardens in Sydney :-)). We hope to also meet Antony Woods in Sydney too and just possibly Evan if he can get to Sydney (no special Pali terms required, Evan!). Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks Kel, RobK & others for assuring Herman he can drive safely and develop sati. Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana and the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested in your comments too. ========= 47680 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: Sutta name christine_fo... Hello Herman, Thanks for posting Michael Olds' translation, it was nice to read it again. He created the Buddhadust site which he has chosen to permanently take down. Disappointing - as it was a valuable and refreshing resource, and visited regularly by many of us. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Does the following sutta go by any other name. I would like to be able > to compare this translation with others. > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/a _little_spell_of_emptiness.htm > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 47681 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171 sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > Ph; Yes, I certainly see what you mean. I also see what the woman > who responded means. (I keep forgetting her name) ... S: I forget the spelling, but her name is pronounced 'Sangjun'. She was a colleage of Jon's at Thammasat Uni where he worked when he lived in Bkk. She's still there. He introduced her to A.Sujin back in the 70s but after he left Bkk, she studied various meditations with other teachers until recently when she started studying with A.Sujin again. The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I presume, whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG last year as Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him to post again. If you have any message for him, Sukin can make sure he sees it! Ell is his wife who you hear on the Sri lanka tapes. .... > She said - and I'm sure we'd all agree - that there can > be moments of right understanding that arise in amougst the wrong > view. .... S: yes, we'd all agree. .... >like the lotus, conditions permitting. And as I said > in the last post, even people who do not have the necessary > conditions for panna to develop and therefore stay submerged in > wrong view practices...they can benefit from the general atmosphere > of harmlessness that pervades even the most adulterated form of > Dhamma, I think. .... S: If the 'most adulterated form of Dhamma' is wrong view, I don't think it's harmless at all. However sweet-sounding it may seem and however metta-filled those who espouse it may seem, if it's encouraging wrong view, it's not harmless imho. .... > Have a great trip, and thanks again for the recorded talks, and all > you've been doing here. And thanks also to Jon. The other day Naomi > called him "Kamome (pr. Kah mo may) no Jonathan", which is the > Japanese title for "Jonathan Livingston Seagull." She knows him > especially from his introductions to each talk ("participants > include...") which she says sound very solemn and urgent, like for a > group of NASA and other experts getting together to discuss a plan > to prevent Earth from being destroyed by a comet or > something.... :) .... S: thanks for the good wishes....the departure is a little delayed now b.c of Jon's work and full flights. Mon week. Pls tell Naomi that I hope she gets past the introductions. Also, pls tell her now that we're all in trouble because I laughed a little at your Nasa comments and now he suggests I'd better do the introductions...:/) Btw, the names given are pretty well as they 'appear', so make a note at the beginning if you're interested to know. There's a great little Abhidhamma intro that K.Sujin gives at the beginning of the Colombo tape if anyone is interested (then it goes into a really advanced, technical question, before eventually ending up with the transplant and worm for Herman). Ranil and Sumane were from DSG, but they haven't posted for a long time. Metta, Sarah ======== 47682 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thank you again. == Herman: So to sum up, I am focusing on the paramattha dhamma of sense base, not pasada rupa. Whether there is sense base when there is no hearing is not the question. The question is, when there is hearing via cochlear implant, is that the sense-base? Kind Regards Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: You seem to be binding me with tie. I would say if there is sotavinnaana citta then there is the sense-base called sotaayatana. Hearing is not 'a pin-point word' for sotavinnaana citta. Because as you as you hear 'there have already been many constructions on ideas, beliefs, memories, and many other things'. So to be exact a) If there is sotavinnaana citta, at the same time there are also saddaayatana and sotaayatana. Saddaayatana is sound-sense-base and sotaayatana is ear-sense-base. b) If there is no sotavinnaana citta there may or may not be saddaayatana and sotaayatana. Hearing is a general concept. Even it is possible to perceive hearing related matters into your brain through microchips and electrical devices. The ears what you can see and the cochlea implant what you can see is not sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. Both are just names and they are pannatti. What you see are all visual objects. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47683 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Now for Sarah and "Setting rolling The Wheel of Truth" > > If we notice the connection here with the Abhidhamma there might be > some light shed on both documents and a deeper understanding. ... S: yes, that's how I see it. ... > So in Samyutta Nikay LVI.11 "...Wheel of Truth" we find > > "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is > remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relingquishing, letting > go and rejecting, of that same craving." > > I once had rooms of fine furniture, china, crystal, blah blah blah > that I got from my youth, upbringing, but one day in L.A. I just > said: "there's no way out, it will never end, they will continually > demand more and more from me..." So I just up and hit the road. .... S: I think there can be just as much attachment, craving and suffering whether we have or don't have all these goodies. I think Evan made this point too. Colette, as I'm sure you know well, we think the problem is the other people's expectations, demands and so on, but of course this is just our own thinking. The Buddha's teachings help us to really face the truth courageously and see that the only demands and expectations and cravings that really hurt are our own. It's not an easy path to follow, but the bread crumbs are there for those with the honesty to see them and pick them up. .... >Damn > those baubles and trinkets. I have learned how to do this so very > very well since 1981 that it's part of me. If ya don't believe me > then look how much clothes I have that all came from the church and > the dumpster. It really isn't that important since IT IS NOT ME MY > SELF. ... S: No, it's not important unless we make it important. Again, as Evan stressed, understanding the teachings has nothing to do with being rich or poor, dressed one way or another or following any particular lifestyle. They are for anyone who can appreciate the benefit. Each time we judge others or feel embittered in anyway, we pile on the suffering, so to speak. I follow all your posts. I can only say that you have a lot of good friends here, Colette. Give the Theravada teachings a chance and let us give you support on the path. As I've been saying to others, apart from quick comments here and there, I may not be able to respond to any new messages for sometime as I'm going on a trip soon. Metta, Sarah ========= 47684 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Hi Htoo, There is sense base, there is sense object. When sense base and sense object come together, sense consciousness arises. This is contact. This is what I have understood from the suttas and books I have read on the subject. Do you mean to tell me that somewhere in-between this process ther is another thing called a pasada ruupa? I still don't understand how pasada ruupa fits in with the process of contact. With Metta, Evan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Evan, Yes. There is sense base, there is sense object. That is there is sotaayatana and there is saddaayatana. This is true. But it is not true to say that 'whenever sense base and sense object come together sense consciousness arises'. But if there is contact yes it is true again. What you have understood and have read is true. May I ask you what is 'sotaayatana'? My answer is 'sotappasaada ruupa'. There are 28 ruupas. a) 4 mahaabhuuta ruupas b) 5 pasaada ruupas c) 4 gocara ruupas (ruupa, sadda, gandha, rasa/ pathavi,tejo,vayo 5th) d) 2 bhaava ruupas e) 1 hadaya ruupa f) 1 jivita ruupa g) 1 ahaara ruupa -- 18 nipphanna ruupas h) 1 aakaasa ruupa i) 2 vinatti ruupas j) 3 lahutaadi ruupas k) 4 lakkhana ruupas -- 10 anipphana ruupas There are only 28 ruupas. 5 pasaada ruupas are 1. cakkhu pasaada ruupa 2. sota pasaada ruupa 3. ghana pasaada ruupa 4. jivhaa pasaada ruupa 5. kaaya pasaada ruupa. Among these 28 ruupa and among these 5 pasaada ruupa which is sotaayatana, if I may ask you? When ear-consciousness (sotavi~n~naana citta) arises at the same time there are sound-sense-base or saddaayatana or simply sound [that is heard sound and not un-heard sound] and ear-sense-base or sotaayatana or ear-sensitivity. I do not understand why you are thinking about extra thing. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47685 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (442) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) There are 89 total cittas or 121 total cittas. But they all cannot arise in any given individual because there are many conditions that support the arising of cittas in individuals. 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala or arahat 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala or new-arahat have been explained. 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala or non-returner Not all 89 cittas are possible to arise in these non-returners. Because they have eradicated some defilements and fetters. The cittas that can arise in these individuals are a) 5 akusala cittas ( 4 ditthi vippayutta and 1 uddhacca) b) 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas (7 resultant cons of rootless/aku) c) 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas (8 resultant cons of rootless/ku) d) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas(pancadvara-avajjana and manodvara-avajjana) e) 8 mahavipaaka cittas f) 8 mahakiriya cittas g) 5 ruupakiriya cittas h) 4 aruupakiriya cittas i) 3 lokuttara cittas(anagami phala, arahatta magga & phala cittas) --- 50 cittas This is maximal cittas that can arise. But arahatta magga and phala cittas cannot arise in anagaami phalatthaana puggala and when they arise then puggala or individual will be called with other names and become other individual like arahatta maggathaana puggala or arahatta phalatthaana puggala. These 2 cittas of arahatta magga and arahatta phala are prospective cittas only. So there are in total 48 cittas that can arise in the individuals called anagaami phalatthaana puggala or individual who have become non-returners. Again there is no one, no anaagams but just 5 aggregates. These 48 cittas when arise is just one of 5 khandhas and they will be called vinnaanakkhandha. These 48 cittas do not arise singly and do not arise in isolation. Instead they arise together with their associated cetasikas. Among these cetasikas there are vedanakkhandha or vedana cetasika, sannakkhandha or sanna cetasika and other cetasikas. Other cetasikas that are not vedana or sanna are called sankharakkhandh. When in human realm these cittas arise at hadaya vatthu or heart base. This is ruupakkhandha. So ultimately there is no anagams at all but just combination of 5 aggregates namely rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha and vinnaanakkhandha. 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala(individuals who become non-returner) This individual is also just a citta called anaagami magga citta. This arises at hadaya vatthu and it is rupakkhandha. There are also vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, and sankhaarakkhandha. So there is no person who is called anagam but just these aggregate. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47686 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:31am Subject: 51 contemplations on consciousness (cittanupassana) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Freinds, There are 51 contemplations on consciousness. When doing contemplation on consciousness one has to be skilful in recognition of various states of mind. Without this skill it is hard to practise these contemplations. There are 16 different states of consciousness. 1. I am thinking sensuous matters. (saraga citta) 2. I am not thinking sensuous matters.(vitaraga citta) 3. I am thinking in ill-will.(sadosa citta) 4. I am not thinking in ill-will.(vitadosa citta) 5. I am thinking in ignorance.(samoha citta) 6. I am not thinking in ignorance.(vitamoha citta) 7. I am thinking in non-alert way.(sankhitta citta) 8. I am thinking in upset way. My thoughts are wandering.(vikkhitta) 9. I am developing jhana.(mahaggata citta) 10.I am not developing jhana.(amahaggata citta) 11.I am thinking lower.(sa-uttara citta) 12.I am not thinking lower.(anuttara citta) 13.I am concentrating.(samahita citta) 14.I am not concentrating.(asamahita citta) 15. I am liberating(temporarily).(vimutta citta) 16. I am not liberating.(avimutta citta) These 16 states of mind have to be first recognised before cittanupassana or contemplation on consciousness can be done properly. One perceives again and again that 'this citta arises in me'. At a time he thinks that other individuals will have been in one of these 16 cittas. At another time he perceives that there are cittas arise in him and others. 16 cittas or 16 contemplation is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally. So there are 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 contemplations. At a time the origination of these 16 cittas is perceived. At another time the dissolution of these 16 cittas is perceived. And sometimes both origination and dissolution of these cittas is perceived. 48 + 3 = 51 contemplations on various consciousness or states of mind. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47687 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kom's ordination news and message... sarahprocter... Dear Azita & Chris, --- gazita2002 wrote: > thanx for this Sarah. an auspicious day, it just happens to be my > birthday :-0 ... Happy belated Birthday, Azita!! Glad it was an auspicious day and you were reading dhamma messages. I think you once said Chris has a b'day around the same time, so best wishes to you too, Chris. (a shame about the broken-in-the-mail cd - *if* we get organised we'll bring a couple with us). We'll look forward to seeing you both in Cooran soon. Bangkok discussions (with us at the Foundation) are now 17th, 18th and 20th August...I think you're planning to join Chris. Maybe others can too? > I wish all the best for Kom - Tikkapanno - and have much > appreciated his understanding of the Dhamma and his patience and > kindness he shown the few times I have met him. May he gain much from > the Sangha life. > if you have contact with him, please pass on my good wishes to him. ... S: Yes, I did. metta, Sarah ====== 47688 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patient is Tolerance ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, I liked your posts on patience #47498, generosity #47292 and understanding #47408 very much. Lots of good quotes, thank you. I also liked the quotes on morality #47318, though I don't think 'intention' is a very appropriate translation for mano as in: "Intention always comes first' etc Dhp1 Usually I think 'mind' is used. With respect, Sarah ====== --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > Patient Tolerance is the Fifth Mental Perfection: > > The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to > endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! > The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. > The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. > Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! > Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! > Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. > External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. > <...> > Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and > dislike > do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & > impure, > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any > of those... > Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind > like water, > then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. > Rahula with > water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with > water are > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any > of that! > Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, > then contacts > of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! > Rahula, > fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, > pus, and > blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine > the mind > like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of > arisen delight > and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, > space does > not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished > like open > space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & > frustration will > neither dominate nor obsess your mind. > > Majjhima Nikaya 62 47689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 15-07-2005 01:32 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and > there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful.", > L: First, let's agree that understanding (paññaa) is rare but > mindfulness (sati) is not so rare. -------- Sati arises with each kusala citta, whereas paññaa does not arise with each kusala citta. ------- L:To me, mindfulness remembers to be conscious of the object (or simply "presence") but doesn't particularly understand anything. ------ N: It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears. ---------- And then a body consciousness follows (in the case > of mindfulness of breathing). ------- N: First there is body-consciousness that experiences tangible object such as hardness, and after that there are javanacittas that may be kusala cittas or akusala cittas. ------- L: There is nothing particularly profound > about this consciousness except that it is consciousness of a reality > and one-pointedness is evident. And it seems to me that the arising of > this consciousness is conditioned by intentionality although a body > consciousness highlighted by one-pointedness could arise spontaneously. ------ N: Body-consciousness is vipakacitta produced by kamma. It is result. There is no sati. So the following sentences are not applicable. ------- L:. If understanding arises after the body consciousness, the > understanding is more like a commentary and that seems somewhat > unsatisfactory to me in terms of direct experience. Although it may make > sense to say the three general characteristics are recognized after the > subsiding of body consciousness. I'm going to look in Vism. to see if I > can find some more clues. ------- N: The Vis. may clarify. Maybe you can quote. Paññaa can arise with the javanacittas after the body-consciousness. It can understand the characteristic of the rupa that is tangible object. Nina. 47690 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, It is hard to find a term that covers all the different aspects of vitakka and vicara. I was not referring to the jhanafactor when using discursive thinking. Best to use the Pali and study the different meanings in different contexts. Otherwise one may confuse it with thinking in conventional sense. The jhana labhii has to achieve a difficult thing: he has to differentiate between vitakka and vicara. op 15-07-2005 02:07 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Tep: ... Thinking, he said, was the 11 annasamaana > cetasika (phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samaadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, > vicaara, adhimokkha, viriya, piti, chanda). And he added that although > the 50 cetasika were defined as 'sankhara-khandha', only these 11 > cetasika were "true" sankhara-khandha, and that they had to be known > by the meditator as dukkha. > > What is your thought on the monk's remarks? ------ N: I have no particular thoughts, I prefer to turn to the ancient texts. Nina. 47691 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Jon, I can nitpick with the best of 'em :-) > > Egbert wrote: > > >I agree with the points you make. And there's nothing wrong with a > >natter about stuff. But even conventional speech has requirements > >which if unmet render a statement meaningless or confused. For > >example, the statement "A day has seven weeks" can be conventionally > >understood as being confused about some categories. > > > >The original statement to which I responded was along the lines of > >"there is only one citta at any time". I took citta to be a > >conventional reference to what is taken in Theravadin orthodoxy to be > >an irreducible, an absolute. That an irreducible is seen to occur in > >time and that it has quantity would suggest that it is not irreducible > >at all. That is why I suggested there was a confusion of levels. > > > > Ah, a fellow nit-picker, I see ;-)) > > Thanks for this explanation. I think you're saying that a person who has truly experienced an absolute would not be talking about that > absolute in terms of numbers and time, since that would be inconsistent with its absoluteness. > > This seems an odd point to make regarding what is clearly a summary of material found in the texts, rather than the writer's personal > experience. But perhaps more to the point, the Buddha himself gave > many discourses in which dhammas were described in terms of numbers (and > which together now form the Anguttara Nikaya), so there is good > precedent for this approach ;-)). > > >(I am working on the assumption that awareness of time and counting > >occur very much higher up the cognitive tree than basic sensing) > > > > Yes, time and counting are both conceptual matters, but the statement > 'there is only one citta at a time' does not purport to be a description > of a paramattha dhamma; it simply addresses the commonly held view that > experiences through the different sense-doors and the mind door can all > occur simultaneously. Perhaps your perceived 'confusion of levels' > results from a misunderstanding of the original statement. > == I personally do not believe in absolutes in the phenomenal world, but there are those that do, and I am critiqueing their position. It is not about the people, and I apologise if it was taken in that way by anyone. To me , the sentence "there is only one citta at a time" means as much or as little as "there is only one sky at a time". There is no unity in the sky, nor is there multiplicity in the sky, apart from perceiving it to be so. Time itself is a product of cittas, so time cannot be used as some standard outside of cittas. I do not have access to commentarial material on the theory of cittas, cetasikas and the like, so I do not know what the intent of the various authours who have repeated the statement in question was. You are telling me that in fact the statement "there is only one citta at a time" is polemical, it seeks to counter another view. I'm happy enough to take your word for it :-) Perhaps I am confused about the intent behind the making of the statement, but would you say that I am confused in saying the following? Taking a stand on whether citta is one or many is totally unnecessary in a 4 Noble Truth context, and leaning either way can only lead to perceptual edifices that are as meaningless as their foundation. Kind Regards Herman 47692 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:28am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] egberdina Hi Jon, > > Egbert wrote: > > >Herman> James already has made the point more than adequately that > >rupas in the suttas are not treated independently from namas, you do > >not have one without the other. Consequently, there are no > >characteristics of "rupas only" to be known, in the suttas, that is. > > > > Yes, namas depend on rupas for their arising, and rupas cannot be > experienced without namas. But it does not follow from that that 'there > are no characteristics of "rupas only" to be known'. When it comes to > insight development, each dhamma has its own characteristic to be > known. At the moment of insight with one as object, there is no knowing > of the other. I think this is clear from the suttas. > Perhaps I am myopic in my reading of the suttas, but I always understood the point of the teachings to be that that the only characteristics of dhammas worth knowing are anicca, anatta and dukkha. Thanks for all your other comments, and I do appreciate your sense of humour :-) Kind Regards Herman > >I do not know for sure, but it seems that Jon reads the satipatthana > >sutta with abhidhamma glasses, and again I do not know for sure, but I > >think James reads the same sutta with sutta glasses. > > > > I would say that both James and I read the Satipatthana Sutta in the > light of our knowledge of the Tipitaka as a whole, its commentaries and > other texts. Right James? > > >I have no doubt that all of us at dsg wish to be of assistance to one > >another, and I also think that a prerequisite for any discussion to be > >therapeutic is that sender and recipient need to be in the same "space". > > > > > > Hmm, a prerequisite, you say. Who would decide, and how, whether 2 > people were in the same space? Besides, it would take all the fun out > of talking at cross-purposes ;-)). > > >It would be rather funny if a well-meaning physician handed a copy of > >Gray's Anatomy to each of his patients with the advice to study up on > >it and return at a later date so that the doctor could discuss the > >problem at hand in his own terms. Wisdom would dictate (it did at > >least in the case of the Buddha) that the therapist meets the patient > >where the patient is at. A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma > >view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that > >an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired > >outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where > >they are at. > > > > I think some of us are quite happy with occasional (or frequent) > mismatches ;-)). Seriously though, thanks for the suggestion. I know > what you mean. I will try in my own posts to establish appropriate > common ground. > > Jon 47693 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:58am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, I think we agreed that without ear, or cochlear implant for a deaf person, there is no hearing. You close of this post by saying that ear and cochlear implant are concept. The conclusion beckons that concepts give rise to paramattha dhammas. I know you don't believe that. I do not mean to tie you up in knots. Is it possible that there are problems with the theory ? The purpose of a theory is to explain the workings of the observed, causality if you like. Theory has its place, because causality is not observable. The existence of cochlear implants is testimony to the fact that the causality that underlies the transducing of waves in a medium like or water into electrical pulses has been understood sufficiently well to be able to give at least a poor reproduction of hearing to those who lack it. It is not improbable that someone, somewhere is going to see the light on hearing the dhamma with the help of a cochlear implant, is it? I do not need to say anymore on this, but if you want to continue, I will be more than happy to do so. Thanks for all your time and effort Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Thank you again. > > > == > Herman: > > So to sum up, I am focusing on the paramattha dhamma of sense base, > not pasada rupa. Whether there is sense base when there is no hearing > is not the question. The question is, when there is hearing via > cochlear implant, is that the sense-base? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > You seem to be binding me with tie. I would say if there is > sotavinnaana citta then there is the sense-base called sotaayatana. > > Hearing is not 'a pin-point word' for sotavinnaana citta. Because as > you as you hear 'there have already been many constructions on ideas, > beliefs, memories, and many other things'. > > So to be exact > > a) If there is sotavinnaana citta, at the same time there are also > saddaayatana and sotaayatana. Saddaayatana is sound-sense-base and > sotaayatana is ear-sense-base. > > b) If there is no sotavinnaana citta there may or may not be > saddaayatana and sotaayatana. > > Hearing is a general concept. Even it is possible to perceive hearing > related matters into your brain through microchips and electrical > devices. > > The ears what you can see and the cochlea implant what you can see is > not sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. Both are just names and they are > pannatti. What you see are all visual objects. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47694 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:03am Subject: Even is Equanimity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Balanced Equanimity is the Tenth Mental Perfection: Equanimity characteristically induces & promotes impartial neutrality... It's function is to look upon things with an even unreactive indifference! It's manifestation is the gradual stilling of both attraction & repulsion.. It's proximate cause is seeing, that all inherit the results of their actions. It's effect is utter purification & perfection of all other mental qualities, by ending both discontent & delight, thereby providing the necessary equal calm required for their complete assessment & accomplishment. Equanimity means Unaffectable.. Equanimity means Unprovokable.. Equanimity means Undisturbable.. Equanimity means Unexcitable.. Equanimity means Imperturbable.. Equanimity means Disengaged.. Equanimity means Disentangled.. Equanimity means Detached.. Equanimity means Immovable.. Equanimity means Unbeatable.. Equanimity means Untemptable.. Equanimity means Wholly Immune.. Equanimity means Indifferent.. Equanimity means Impartial.. Equanimity means Unbiased.. Equanimity means Disinterested.. Equanimity means Balanced.. Even like a smiling mountain! Cool Calm is the ultimate Balm! The Threefold Equanimity (Upekkha): If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquillity; So is the Equanimity; of one freed by the Insight of right Knowledge. Dhammapada 96 Although a man is richly dressed and adorned, if he is in peace, at ease, in equanimity, calmed, composed, controlled, celibate and harmless towards all beings, then verily he is a Holy One, a recluse, a sage ... Dhammapada 142 Equanimity towards one's own internal states - that is indeed a link to Enlightenment. Equanimity regarding external phenomena & conditions - that is indeed also a link to Enlightenment. Samyutta Nikaya V Bojjhanga-samyutta. Such noble friend finally develops the link to awakening that is Equanimity during awareness of in-&-out breathing, which protect against damaging mental states, tends to detachment, to ceasing, tends to release & culminates in complete self-surrender... If, friends, awareness of in-&-out breathing, is so cultivated and so made much of, it is indeed of great fruit, of great advantage! One whose awareness of breathing in-&-out is perfected, well developed, and gradually brought to refined growth thus, according to the teaching of the Buddha, such one illuminates the entire world, just like the full moon freed from clouds. Samyutta Nikaya V Anapana-samyutta. The Blessed One said: Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a Noble One is there the unsurpassable development of the senses? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, or what is disagreeable, or what is both agreeable & disagreeable. He recognizes that: This agreeable thing has arisen in me, or this disagreeable thing... or this both agreeable & disagreeable thing, has arisen in me: And that is constructed, conditioned, coarse & dependently co-arisen! But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, namely even & equal equanimity! Instantly, that arisen agreeable or disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes it's calm stance! Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or when open, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, equanimity make whatever arisen agreeable thing... or disagreeable thing... or both agreeable & disagreeable thing cease right there, and equanimity takes it's even stance! In the discipline of The Noble One, this is called the unsurpassable development of the senses with regard to visible forms cognizable by the eye. Similar is the supreme development of the other senses. MN 152 With the fading of rapturous joy, he remains in equanimity, aware & alert, still physically sensitive to bodily pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware Equanimity, one abides in pleasure...' With the stilling of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & frustration, he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: sole awareness purified by equanimity, - neither pleasure nor pain - This is called right concentration... The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of all regrets, just this pure equanimity being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release the breakthrough from ignorance. Sutta Nipata V 13: Udaya's Questions Equanimity is 'Tatra-majjhattata', which designates the evenly balanced keeping to the moderate middle of all things. It has as characteristic, that it effects the balance of consciousness and mental properties as a single function of single taste, which prevents both overt excessiveness and any lack or insufficiency. Equanimity thereby puts an end to biased partiality by manifesting moderation well within range of the properly reasoned midway. Visuddhimagga XIV The Buddha once explained: I would make my bed in a charnel ground, with a skeleton for my pillow.. And cowherd boys came up and spat on me, urinated on me, threw dirt at me, and poked sticks into my ears! While others, exultant & thrilled brought me offerings of food, caskets of perfume & incense and garlands of flowers! Yet I do not recall, that I ever showed any partiality towards any of them... I was the same to them all! Neither arousing any fondness nor any aversion! This was my ultimate perfection of equanimity... MN 12 Lomahamsanapariyaya The Hair-raising Presentation Cariyapitaka III 15 __________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 47695 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:16am Subject: Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47696 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and all ) - It is true that vitakka & vicara can be confused with "thinking in conventional sense", but that is not my concern. My concern is about the thinking in non-conventional sense. > N: I have no particular thoughts, I prefer to turn to the ancient texts. Tep: I hope you don't mean that you no longer believe in anybody else. I believe there have been several ariya-savaka (noble disciples) since the time the ancient texts were written. The explanation by my highly respected Thai Forest monk is clear to me. Thinking involves more than vitakka & vicara: chanda, cetana (volition), manasikara(attention), vitakka & vicara, adhimokkha (determination), viriya(effort), piti (joy), phassa(consciousness- impression), and jivita(vitality). The following implications are very interesting : 1) How do these 11 cetasika in worldlings lead to dukkha? 2) In order that dukkha ceases "thinking" must stop. Does that include cessation of citta-sankhara? Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > It is hard to find a term that covers all the different aspects of vitakka > and vicara. I was not referring to the jhanafactor when using discursive > thinking. Best to use the Pali and study the different meanings in different contexts. Otherwise one may confuse it with thinking in conventional sense. The jhana labhii has to achieve a difficult thing: he has to differentiate between vitakka and vicara. > op 15-07-2005 02:07 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > Tep: ... Thinking, he said, was the 11 annasamaana cetasika (phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samaadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, > > vicaara, adhimokkha, viriya, piti, chanda). And he added that although the 50 cetasika were defined as 'sankhara-khandha', only these 11 cetasika were "true" sankhara-khandha, and that they had to be known by the meditator as dukkha. > > > > What is your thought on the monk's remarks? > ------ 47697 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta name upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 7/15/05 4:55:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello Herman, Thanks for posting Michael Olds' translation, it was nice to read it again. ----------------------------------- Howard: Indeed it was! Some folks consider Michael's translations to be "quirky" - I even remember one who was angered by his translation of 'bhikkhu' ;-)), but I find his translations to be fresh and attention getting - even riveting! ---------------------------------- He created the Buddhadust site which he has chosen to permanently take down. Disappointing - as it was a valuable and refreshing resource, and visited regularly by many of us. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, 'refreshing' is the right word to us. :-) ----------------------------------- metta, Chris ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47698 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, op 14-07-2005 17:14 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: . Since saññaa marks the > object >> from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? >> The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of > ignorance.> > > What are these pictures-memories-recollections of sanna marks > which go through this mind one after another? > I observe kind of "picture-flashes" triggering various reactions, > and I am curious in mechanism of this thing. ------ N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the object so that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible object, and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. If insight is not developed of one dhamma at a time we hold on to an object that was experienced, we cling to it. If there were no seeing, we would not think so much of what was seen and form up concepts about it. That is why Kh. Sujin said: we are on the ocean of ignorance and attachment. But a moment of understanding, even if it is very little, is a condition for its growth. Nina. 47699 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171 philofillet Hi Sarah > The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I presume, > whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG last year as > Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him to post again. If > you have any message for him, Sukin can make sure he sees it! Ell is his > wife who you hear on the Sri lanka tapes. What a coincidence. I collected posts from last year, and often come back to Matt's, the ones one seeing and the classic that I always refer to when i get caught up in thinking about ethical/social issues. You know the one. They are so sharp. On a few occasions I almost asked "who is this matt and where is he?" so I guess I must have accumulations that respond to what he has to say. I'm sure he has his own good reason for not hanging out here, but if Sujin could tell him that there is a neophyte who would appreciate hearing a lot more from him I'd be grateful. Of course, as we always say, it's not the person, it's the understanding.. > .... > > > She said - and I'm sure we'd all agree - that there can > > be moments of right understanding that arise in amougst the wrong > > view. > .... > S: yes, we'd all agree. > .... > > >like the lotus, conditions permitting. And as I said > > in the last post, even people who do not have the necessary > > conditions for panna to develop and therefore stay submerged in > > wrong view practices...they can benefit from the general atmosphere > > of harmlessness that pervades even the most adulterated form of > > Dhamma, I think. > .... > S: If the 'most adulterated form of Dhamma' is wrong view, I don't think > it's harmless at all. However sweet-sounding it may seem and however > metta-filled those who espouse it may seem, if it's encouraging wrong > view, it's not harmless imho. I don't know. This might sound pessimistic, but I think not everyone can or will respond to the true Dhamma, and we know that the true Dhamma is disappearing from the world. I would rather know that people were being warm and fuzzy thanks to pop Buddhism books and feelgood teachers like Thich Nhat Hahn than getting hooked up on JeeZus. No one ever invaded a country In the Name of Nirvana Now! I think warm and fuzzy Dhamma is still helpful to people in a superficial way even if tthough it doesn't bring them closer to liberation. I write stories with warm and fuzzy messages so I am in favour of people feeling warm and fuzzy if that is where they are at in their journey through the aeons. Better to develop panna but that requires patience that simply is not for everyone and never will be. So be it. > Pls tell Naomi that I hope she gets past the introductions. I hope she will too. She does like the quality of the voices, the obvious gentleness and unity of purpose you hear in the talks. The thing is she gets annoyed when I spend too much time on Dhamma, so there is resistance. When I am more productive in other areas there will be more interest from her, I think. I can't push it on her now. She has strong conditions that make her adverse to feeling controlled by others, probably because of her childhood. Also, pls tell > her now that we're all in trouble because I laughed a little at your Nasa > comments and now he suggests I'd better do the introductions...:/) Oh my God! That would be even worse! haha I love the tone of the introductions. That was Naomi's cynicism, not mine. > > There's a great little Abhidhamma intro that K.Sujin gives at the > beginning of the Colombo tape if anyone is interested (then it goes into a > really advanced, technical question, before eventually ending up with the > transplant and worm for Herman). Ranil and Sumane were from DSG, but they > haven't posted for a long time. Wow, another coincidence. That's the very talk I listened to as I walked to the station. A man from Sri Lanka (I assume) probably Ranil or Sumane asked some questions about kusala citta, referring to a favourite Dhammapada passage, and A. Sujin launched into a really lucid talk. Great stuff. Perhaps I will type out a transcript here. See, the problem is, Naomi has been bitching at me for spending too much time here. For breaking my promise to post only once or twice a week. I think Charles can relate to that! And perhaps not only Charles.... Metta, Phil 47700 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:01am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Herman and Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Jon, At the moment of insight with one as object, there is no > knowing > > of the other. I think this is clear from the suttas. > > > > Perhaps I am myopic in my reading of the suttas, but I always > understood the point of the teachings to be that that the only > characteristics of dhammas worth knowing are anicca, anatta and dukkha. > > Thanks for all your other comments, and I do appreciate your sense of > humour :-) > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman I agree with Herman here. It is often said that one of the stages of vipassana insight is "knowing the difference between nama and rupa" but I believe that this comes from the commentaries and not from the suttas. The suttas, if memory serves, describe how one is supposed to see consciousness (nama) immersed in the body (rupa) like one would see a thread strung through a clear gem. This metaphor would involve seeing the relationship between nama and rupa and seeing their differences. Not quite the same idea that Jon suggests, in my opinion. If there are suttas which state that one should know nama as separate from rupa and vice versa, I would be interested to hear of them. Metta, James ps. BTW, my following of posts has been quite sporadic due to my travels. If I have missed any posts directed to me or that mention me indirectly, could someone direct my attention to those posts? It isn't my wish to ignore anyone. 47701 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, I think we agreed that without ear, or cochlear implant for a deaf person, there is no hearing. You close of this post by saying that ear and cochlear implant are concept. The conclusion beckons that concepts give rise to paramattha dhammas. I know you don't believe that. I do not mean to tie you up in knots. Is it possible that there are problems with the theory ? The purpose of a theory is to explain the workings of the observed, causality if you like. Theory has its place, because causality is not observable. The existence of cochlear implants is testimony to the fact that the causality that underlies the transducing of waves in a medium like or water into electrical pulses has been understood sufficiently well to be able to give at least a poor reproduction of hearing to those who lack it. It is not improbable that someone, somewhere is going to see the light on hearing the dhamma with the help of a cochlear implant, is it? I do not need to say anymore on this, but if you want to continue, I will be more than happy to do so. Thanks for all your time and effort Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, Now I see that you did not tie me up. I want to continue the current discussion. But I do not have much time nowadays. Pannatti finally points out what paramattha dhamma are. I would not say 'cochlea implant, ear' etc are not real. But I would say they are not paramattha dhamma. There are my posts on dream and arahats. I wrote about the current in the nerves and perception in relation to dream. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47702 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: Public Apology to Jon htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Jon - I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, May I show my great respect to you on your 'Public Apology to Jon'? You are one of my respected Dhamma friends. Among Dhamma friends you are a rare friend, who has the qualities of flexibility, courtesy, diplomacy and many others. I say this because you are in different groups, where there are people with various personalities, attitude, knowledge, skills and behaviour. With much respect, Htoo Naing 47703 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:56am Subject: 30 vedananupassanas or 30 contemplations on feeling htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, According to 'the definition of consciousness in Oxford English Dictionar' consciousness comprises feeling. Abhidhamma says in each and every citta or consciousness there is a feeling. This means if there is a citta then there is a feeling associated with that citta. So if there is no citta then there is no feeling at all. Feeling or vedana is one of 5 aggregates or one of panca khandhas. There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. They are 1. ruupa-kkhandha or material aggregates 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling aggregates 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception aggregates 4. sankhara-kkhandha or formation aggregates 5. vinnaana-kkhandha or consciousness aggregates. In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or vinnaana- kkhandha. Here in this post there will describe 30 contemplations on feeling and this is contemplation on vedana-kkhandha. Ruupa-kkhandha is contemplated in both of kaayanupassana and dhammaanupassana. But kaayaanupassana or contemplations on the body is mainly on ruupa-kkhandha. There are 9 contemplations on feeling that arise within or that arise internally. These feeling can be sensed by individual with their mind. No outside individual will be able to sense those feelings but for themselves. These 9 contemplations are 1. this is pleasant feeling. 2. this is unpleasant feeling. 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) 6. this is sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling.(neither) 7. this is non-sensuous pleasant feeling.(jhana/magga-pleasure) 8. this is non-sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure not attaining) 9. this is non-sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling. At a time the individual thinks that these feelings would have been arising and passing away in other individuals and they are just feelings that are not self. So there is another set of 9 contemplations on other individuals. At some time the individual thinks on feelings in both his individual and other individuals that there will be arising of feelings and passing away of feeling. So there is a third set of 9 contemplations on feeling. So there are altogether 27 contemplations on feeling. There are originations of these feeling. This is another contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution. These 3 contemplations along with former 27 contemplations make 30 contemplations on feeling. This is for simplicity and further clarification may be required. So far there have explained on 4. 108 dhammanupassana or 108 contemplations on dhamma 3. 51 cittaanupassana or 51 contemplations on citta or consciousness 2. 30 vedanaanupasana or 30 contemplations on feeling. 1. 216 kaayaanupassana or 216 contemplations on the body will be explained in the coming post on kaayaanupassana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 443 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) The first four individuals have been explained in the previous posts. 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) This individual is once-returner. This means that before they leave the samsara they will come back to human realm for once only after the current life. This may be next life or may equally be the last life. The cittas that can arise in these individuals are a)7 akusala cittas(4 ditthi-vippayutta lobha cittas,2 dosa,1 uddhacca) b)7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas c)8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas d)2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (panca-dvara-avajjana & mano-dvara-avajjana) e)8 mahakusala cittas f)8 mahavipaaka cittas g)5 ruupakusala cittas (5 rupa jhaana) h)4 aruupakusala cittas(4 aruupa jhaana) i)1 sakadaagaami phala citta --- 50 cittas These 50 cittas can arise in these sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala. There are 8 lokuttara cittas or 8 supramundane consciousness. Arahatta phala citta arises only in asikkha or arahats. So there is posibility that other 7 lokuttara cittas may arise in sikkha or trainees. If all these are added then further 6 cittas have to be added to above list 50 cittas. There will then be 56 total cittas that can arise in sikkha or trainees who are saints or ariyas. But as puggalas have already been defined other lokuttara cittas only arise in other ariya puggala and not in this sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala. So there are only 50 cittas that can arise in sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala or once- returners. 6.sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) There is only one citta that can arise in this individual. Because magga cittas always arise once and each just last one cittakkhana or one mind moment. So sakadaagaami magga citta only arises in a moment and it never arises again. Instead there arise sakadaagaami phala cittas and if these cittas arise then the individual becomes sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala and no more sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. There is in ultimate sense no person at all in both sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala and sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. There are just naama and ruupa. It is illusionally called individual or puggala but in ultimate sense there are 5 aggregates. 1. ruupakkhandha ( hadaya vatthu where sakadaagaami magga depends) 2. vedanakkhandha( feeling in sakadaagaami magga citta ) 3. sannakkhandha ( perception in sakadaagaami magga citta) 4. sankharakkhandha( other cetasikas apart from vedana and sanna) 5. vinnaanakkhandha( sakadaagaami magga citta itself) These 5 khandhas are collectively viewed as individual who is called sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. Let assume someone in this world on this earth is a sakadaagaam. When we look at him we cannot find any sakadaagam, or any person or man or being. What we see is that form, shape, colours, light, brightness of various degrees. When we see him as bahiddhika dhamma all aggregates are there in that individual and actually they all are agreegates of naama or ruupa and that combination. When that individual sees himself as ajjhattika dhamma there is no person or man or being at all but just agreegates of naama and ruupa as described above as 5 khandhas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47705 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:27am Subject: Pali word '' Vi~n~naana '' htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Here is a Pali word called 'vi~n~naana'. This word is simply written as 'vinnana'. It is usually written in the form of 'vinnana'. To fully understand what vinnana means we need to go back to basic Pali lesson. Here is a table of Pali alphabets. 1) k , kh , g , gh , `n 2) c , ch , j , jh , ~n 3) .t, .th, .d, .dh, .n 4) t , th , d , dh , n 5) p , ph , b , bh , m 6) y , r , l , v , s 7) h ,.l , .m There are 33 Pali alphabets. Similar characters in English font of Pali are .t, .th , .d , .dh , . n and t, th , d , dh , n These 10 alphabet 5 in each roll are similar. Their vocal sound or voice are also similar. t is like 't' of 'toward'. th is like 'th' in 'bethorse' or 'bet-horse'. d is like 'd' in 'door'. dh is like 'dh' in 'secondhand'. h is aspirated sound. Without h is unaspirated sound. When aspirated we can detect a gush of air in fron of our mouth when we say aspirated word. Just put the palm of hand in front of the mouth and say the alphabet. So there is distinction between 't' and 'th'. There is distinction between 'd' and 'dh'. The distinction between 't' and 'd' is that 't' is not voiced while 'd' is voiced. Put your palm on the throat and say 't' and 'd' alternatively. There is distinction. The site of the tongue where to place is all the same. n is nasalised 't'. So there is distinction between all t, th, d, dh, and n. Again how to differentiate between '.t' and 't'. 't' is like 't' in English and the tongue is placed at the base of teeth. But '.t' is not like that. For pronunciation of '.t' the tongue has to be placed a little bit back from the teeth. So there is distinction between and among all 10 alphabets of t, th, d, dh, n, .t, .th, .d, .dh, .n If this is understood all first 5 rolls of Pali alphabets can now be pronounced. c is like 'c' in 'centre'. j is like the second sound of 'measure' Among these 5 rolls the last alphabet are `n, ~n, .n, n, m These 5 alphabets do have distinct sound. `n is like 'ng' in 'English' ~n is a bit similar to 'neer' in 'engineer' if engineer has 3 sound. That is 'en' 'gin' 'neer'. Here 'neer' has to be a single sound in Pali '~n' and not a dipthong or combination of 2 vowels. n is the same as 'n' in 'no'. .n is like n but the tongue has to be put a bit back from the teeth. m is like 'm' in 'mother'. So all 25 alphabets are distinct. y, r, l, v, s All these 5 are distinct. Y is like 'y' of yello, r is like 'r' of 'red', l is like 'l' of 'letter', v is like 'v' of 'visitor' and s is like 's' of 'sister'. But when 's' is pronounced the tongue has to be pushed against the base of teeth. So all 30 alphabets have distinct sound. 3 more. .l is like 'l' but '.l' has to be pronounced with the tonuge put a little bit back from the teeth like those 5 alphabets of '.t, .th, .d, .dh, .n h is like 'h' in 'hat. .m is also distinct. There is no initial '.m' in Pali. .m is like 'ng' in 'English' but without 'g'. So there are 33 distinct sounds for 33 Pali alphabet. Now it is the turn of 'vi~n~naana'. But before this 8 vowels should be studied. In Pali there are 8 vowels. They are a, aa i, ii u, uu e o a is a short vowel. It is like 'a' in 'ago'. aa is a long vowel. It is like 'a' is 'car'. aa is written with a single 'a' with a bar over the letter 'a'. When this character is not available 'aa' is sometimes used and sometimes just 'a' is used as if the readers have already known it. Like a, i is a short vowel. i is like 'i' in 'sit'. ii is a long vowel. It is like 'ee' in 'employee'. Like a and i, u is a short vowel. u is like 'ove' in 'move'. uu is like 'oo' in 'boot' or the sound in 'through'. e is a long vowel. Long vowels have double the length of short vowels. e is like 'ay' in 'day'. But not exactly like English 'day' which is a diphthong or combination of different vowels. o is like 'aw' in 'straw'. Now we come back to 'vi~n~naana'. So when all these 33 Pali alphabets and 8 Pali vowels have been explained it will not be difficult to follow what 'vinnana' is like. It is like 'wein' 'nyar' 'nart' and all in equal length even though na of the last syllable is a short vowel. And all 'wein' 'nyar' 'nart' have to be a single vowl in each and there is no ending sound in 'wein'. That is no sound of 'n'. Likewise there is no sound of 'r' in 'nyar' and no sound of 'rt' in 'nart'. So 'vinnana' is pronounced like 'wein-nyar-nart'. The written font for 'vinnana' is 'vi~n~naana'. Now it is time to see its meaning. Here is someone's explanation, which is not that right to serve the full meaning of vinnana. 'The Pali term "vinnana" is very commonly translated as "consciousness" in English translations of Pali texts. This again seems very misleading because the term "consciousness" is a synonym for awareness in the English language, and since "vinnana" is an aggregate of clinging that must be relinquished prior to enlightenment, then it seems rather unskillful to imply that enlightenment is thus a state of unconsciousness. However, if we consider that the Pali term "vinnana" is closest to our use of the term "cognition" then we can thus see the contemplative is not seeking an unconscious state, but a state that is free of the cognitive processes.' Actually 'vinnana' is made up of 'vi' and '~n~naana'. Vi means 'special' 'separate' 'apart''free from''clear' 'different'. Nana means 'knowledge' or 'knowing'. So Vinnana vi_nnana, 'special knowledge' or 'special knowing'(at eye,---, mind.) vi_nnana, 'separate knowledge' or separate knowing(at eye,---,mind.) Consciousness is almost close to the meaning of vinnana. Oxford dictionary says consciousness also includes feeling. So this is not misleading to anyone. But 'awareness' is misleading one. Why? It is a mixture of many other things that are beyond consciousness. When 'awareness' is used then there is limitation in meaning and it does not represent 'vinnana'. Examples are bhavanga cittas. These are life-continuum. It is consciousness. It is conscious to its object. But 'sleeping mind' can never be called 'awareness'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47706 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Public Apology to Jon buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you > this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these > posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of > sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing > whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of > clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and > courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very > sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. > > With metta, > Howard I'm just glad that I'm not the only one who has difficulty being civil with Jon! ;-)) This post is very nice- hopefully it will inspire some self-reflection on Jon's part as well. Metta, James 47707 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 7/15/05 10:54:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear Howard, May I show my great respect to you on your 'Public Apology to Jon'? You are one of my respected Dhamma friends. Among Dhamma friends you are a rare friend, who has the qualities of flexibility, courtesy, diplomacy and many others. I say this because you are in different groups, where there are people with various personalities, attitude, knowledge, skills and behaviour. With much respect, Htoo Naing ====================== Thank you for the kind words. Well, an apology is better than no apology, but better yet is to not create the need to apologize to begin with. And to do that requires more consistent effort at guarding the senses. So, my lesson to learn: Be more careful in practicing what I preach! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47708 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/15/05 12:25:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: I'm just glad that I'm not the only one who has difficulty being civil with Jon! ;-)) This post is very nice- hopefully it will inspire some self-reflection on Jon's part as well. ======================= Thank you for the commiseration (i.e., providing the company that misery loves! ;-) However, Jon, himself, is very civil all the time [I've never witnessed him otherwise], and being exasperating to (some) others isn't a "crime". ;-) More of a defect, I think, is to allow oneself to *be* exasperated and to express that exaspiration unkindly. After all, khanti and metta are paramitas, whereas "being right" isn't! ;-) Please excuse me if I'm coming off sounding preachy here, James. I don't mean to at all. It's just that I was really displeased with my own posting, and I'm not looking to share any of the blame. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. nilovg Hi James, op 15-07-2005 16:01 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: It is often said that one of the stages of > vipassana insight is "knowing the difference between nama and rupa" > but I believe that this comes from the commentaries and not from the > suttas. .... If there are suttas which state that one should know nama as > separate from rupa and vice versa, I would be interested to hear of them. >--------- N: Indeed, in the Commentaries this is explained in detail and in a direct way. Still, I see many pointers in the suttas. I find your question worth while to reflect on. In countless suttas the Buddha explained about the objects that are experienced one at a time through the six doorways. For example: ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: ³Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.² Further on we read: ³Wherefore, monks, thinking, ŒInvestigating, we will become wise,¹ this is how you must train yourselves, monks.² When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: ³What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ŒInvestigating, the monk is wise?¹ ² The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways, about the sense-fields (åyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ånanda asked him how the monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: <³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is skilled in the elements.¹ ² > All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the relevant sense-cognitions. When the listeners in the Buddha's time heard: they were not passive listeners, they could be aware then and there of visible object or seeing, without confusing them and thus they could realize their falling away, one at a time. They would not confuse eye-door and mind-door, seeing and thinking, they would not take dhammas together as a whole, a concept, and so many of them could attain enlightenment while they listened. This is a good exhortation for us not to be passive listeners or passive readers when reading about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. They arise at this moment. We can learn about them. We can consider the suttas of Kindred Sayings IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense. B.B. edition, p. 1133, see how the sense bases are taken separately, as being impermanent, dukkha, non-self. Then the sense objects: forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tactile objects mental phenomena. And then p. 1140, §24 Abandonment; the eye is to be abandoned, forms, eye-consciousness, and the same for the ear, etc. We can just read it and it may not mean anything. Or, we can be openminded to the Dhamma and try to understand more of all these dhammas one by one. When you are back I would like to read more suttas with you. Starting another thread? Nina. 47710 From: "agriosinski" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Agrios, > > op 14-07-2005 17:14 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > . Since saññaa marks the > > object > >> from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? > >> The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of > > ignorance.> > > > > What are these pictures-memories-recollections of sanna marks > > which go through this mind one after another? > > I observe kind of "picture-flashes" triggering various reactions, > > and I am curious in mechanism of this thing. > ------ > N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the object so > that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible object, > and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. [...] Hi Nina and all, you are actually explaining papanca sanna sankhara. I am not curious about thinking which arises from various sources, but rather about mental pictures popping up by themself, without any thinker being involved. They may originate in portfolio of sanna created tags. I can't say. Let me give few examples: A person is listening to the music with his/her eyes closed. Visual images will start to pop-up in the mind. There are sota related processes going on, but mano vinnana is pictorial. Visual specifics of them are not actually reminiscent of anything known. Or: A person is practicing and sudden whip of visually intensive nature, let say brightness or movement of some red shapes pops up in mind, triggering various reactions. Or: A person is about to sleep but sudden shake of unknown to me origin is giving his/her feeling of deep chill. There is body reaction of skin and hair standing up. I am interested in origination of it back to the source. What is the source of it. With much respect, Agrios. 47711 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Public Apology to Jon jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for this, but really there's no need to apologise. The areas we discuss here are sensitive ones for everyone, and there is bound to be reaction from time to time. I realise it is just frustration, and nothing personal. But I appreciate your writing and saying what you have. I hope you will keep up our exchanges as before. Jon upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you >this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these >posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of >sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing >whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of >clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and >courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very >sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. > >With metta, >Howard > > 47712 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah {Attn. Kel, Howard, Nina, Larry, Htoo, Ven. Samahita and others} - Sarah : > > Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana and >the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his >conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested > in your comments too. > ========= Tep: Thanks to Kelvin for his introduction of the article, 'The Jhanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas', By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi : http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm Thank you Sarah for asking me to comment. Bhikkhu Bodhi framed his study in order to answer the following 3 questions: (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhana before entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyama), the irreversible path to stream-entry? (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhanas to lay disciples who have attained stream-entry? (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhanas to the stream-enterer, is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their attainment becomes essential? I extracted only his definitive findings and assembled the pieces into the following answers: (1.) "Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters 'the fixed course of rightness' in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. (2.) "None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhanas. (3.) "All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhanas. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhanic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment." BB also commented on non-returnership and jhanas. The relationship was "clear", he said. But the connection might not be "absolutely binding". BB: "Several non-returners in the Nikayas claim to possess all four jhanas, and according to the Mahamalukaya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhana is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. Although in the Nikayas the tie between the two attainments -- the jhanas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding." I feel that BB's findings and conclusions are in good agreement with my several years of suttas study. Well, Sarah. I thanked you because from now on we can save our time by avoiding a debate over the 3 questions above. Sincerely, Tep ============ --------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard (& Herman, Kel, RobK, Tep), > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Herman: But I think that some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions are remarkably anatomical. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Aha! Suddenly an Abhidhammika, eh? ;-)) > > --------------------------------------- > .... > S: I think he's preparing for a good discussion in the Botanical gardens in Sydney :-)). > > We hope to also meet Antony Woods in Sydney too and just possibly Evan if he can get to Sydney (no special Pali terms required, Evan!). > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Thanks Kel, RobK & others for assuring Herman he can drive safely and develop sati. 47713 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: 30 vedananupassanas or 30 contemplations on feeling buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - In the message # 47703 you wrote : Htoo: > In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 > contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or vinnaana- kkhandha. Tep: Could you please describe how you may "contemplate on consciousness"? The cittanupassana satipatthana is based on contemplation of mental states, not a direct contemplation of citta <"There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion."> Htoo: > 1. this is pleasant feeling. > 2. this is unpleasant feeling. > 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. > > 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) > 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) ... ... .... .... > There are originations of these feeling. This is another > contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these > feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is > thinking on both origination and dissolution. Tep: Could you please describe how one may do "contemplation" on feeling? You mentioned "thinking" above ("The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution".). Is contemplation equivalent to thinking? You also mentioned "thoughts" along with contemplation. Is "contemplation on feeling" equivalent to contemplating thought? How can feeling = thought and yet contemplation = thinking? (Htoo: "The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution") I am confused. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > >(snipped) > > There are 9 contemplations on feeling that arise within or that arise > internally. These feeling can be sensed by individual with their mind. > No outside individual will be able to sense those feelings but for > themselves. These 9 contemplations are > > 1. this is pleasant feeling. > 2. this is unpleasant feeling. > 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. > > 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) > 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) > 6. this is sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling.(neither) > > 7. this is non-sensuous pleasant feeling.(jhana/magga-pleasure) > 8. this is non-sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure not attaining) > 9. this is non-sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling. > (snipped) > > At some time the individual thinks on feelings in both his individual > and other individuals that there will be arising of feelings and > passing away of feeling. So there is a third set of 9 contemplations > on feeling. So there are altogether 27 contemplations on feeling. > > There are originations of these feeling. This is another > contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these > feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is > thinking on both origination and dissolution. These 3 contemplations > along with former 27 contemplations make 30 contemplations on feeling. > 47714 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Nina: "It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears." Hi Nina, For me, sati comes first, then body consciousness. Why remember a body consciousness? Btw, I was trying to figure out what presence is, the sense of nowness. Maybe it is just absence of discursive thinking (concept). Larry 47715 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jonoabb Hi Lisa Yes, there are a lot of messages to keep up with (and much good content to consider). I have just the same problem as you. Looking forward to some jottings in due course when you have time to share with us your readings of those books. Thanks for letting us know you're still around. Jon Lisa wrote: >Greetings Jon (hello DSGers), > >I've been moving this last two weeks and work has been very heavy. >So sorry for not telling everyone what's happening. ... > >Jon I have many, many reference books,some very old and hard to find >because they are out of print,in regards to upakaraka dhamma and >also what is and is not dhamma or Dhamma. ... > > 47716 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Firstly something about essence. The problem is as follows. How things >appear, and how they are, can be quite a few worlds apart, as you well >know. > >IMHO, human perceptual processes rely on the computation of >differences. So what is presented to consciousness as positive objects >with seemingly inherent characteristics, are, in fact, the >representations of the ever-changing difference between states of >non-conscious sensing. Now, if mental objects exist only as the >difference between states that no longer apply, how knowable is their >self-nature (essence)? > >Seeing as there is no knowable essence (self-nature) in anything, >because things come into being only as differences, its potential >relation to anatta is a moot point :-) > The above is an interesting line of thinking, but is it not possible that the moments of 'computation of differences' lie some distance up the cognitive tree (to use your own metaphor), and that preceding those moments there are moments of bare experience of sense-objects? Your comments seem to assume this cannot be so, but you do not give any basis for that assumption. Jon 47717 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:05am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.8 Kamma (3) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: MAHINDA e-CORRESPONDENCE COURSE Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.8 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (3) Free Will Kamma, as has been stated earlier, is not fate, is not irrevocable destiny. Nor is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion. The actions (Kamma) of men are generally not absolutely irrevocable; and only a few of them are so. If, for example, one fires off a bullet out of a rifle, one cannot call it back or turn it aside from its mark. But, if instead of a lead or iron ball through the air, it is an ivory ball on a smooth green board that one sets moving with a billiard cue, one can send after it and at it, another ball in the same way, and change its course. Not only that, if one is quick enough, and one has not given it too great an impetus, one might even get round to the other side of the billiard table, and send against it a ball which would meet it straight in the line of its course and bring it to a stop on the spot. With one's later action with the cue, one modifies, or even in favourable circumstances, entirely neutralises one's earlier action. It is much the same way that Kamma operates in the broad stream of general life. There too one's action (Kamma) of a later day may modify the effects of one's action (Kamma) of a former day. If this were not so, what possibility would there ever be of a man's getting free from all Kamma for ever. It would be perpetually self-continuing energy that could never come to an end. Man has, therefore, a certain amount of free will and there is almost every possibility to mould his life or to modify his actions. Even a most vicious person can by his own free will and effort become the most virtuous person. One may at any moment change for the better or for the worse. But everything in the world including man himself is dependent on conditions andwithout conditions nothing whatsoever can arise or enter into existence. Man therefore has only a certain amount of free will and not absolute free will. According to Buddhist philosophy, everything, mental or physical, arises in accordance with the laws and conditions. If it were not so, there would reign chaos and blind chance. Such a thing, however, is impossible, and if it would be otherwise, all laws of nature which modern science has discovered would be powerless. The real, essential nature of action (Kamma) of man is mental. When a given thought has arisen in one's mind a number of times, there is a definite tendency to recurrence of that thought. When a given act has been performed a number of times, there is a definite tendency to the repetition of the act. Thus, each act, mental or physical, tends to constantly produce its like, and be in turn produced. If a man thinks a good thought, speaks a good word, does a good deed, the effect upon him is to increase the tendencies to goodness present in him, is to make him a better man. If, on the contrary, he does a bad deed in thought, in speech or in action, he has strengthened in himself his bad tendencies; he has made himself a worse man. Having become a worse man, he will gravitate to the company of worse men in the future, and incur all the unhappiness of varying kinds that attends life in such company. On the other hand, the man of a character that is continually growing better, will naturally tend to the companionship of the good, and enjoy all the pleasantness and comforts and freedom from the ruder shocks of human life which such society connotes. In the case of a cultured man, even the effect of a greater evil may be minimised while the lesser evil of an uncultured man may produce its effect to the maximum according to the favourable and unfavourable conditions. Lessons Taught by Kamma The more we understand the law of Kamma the more we see how careful we must be of our acts, words and thoughts, and how responsible we are to our fellow beings. Living in the light of this knowledge, we learn certain lessons from the doctrine of Kamma. 1. PATIENCE Knowing that the Law is our great helper if we live by it, and that no harm can come to us if we work with it, knowing also it blesses us just at the right time, we learn the grand lesson of patience, not to get excited, and that impatience is a check to progress. In suffering, we know that we are paying a debt, and we learn if we are wise, not to create more suffering for the future. In rejoicing, we are thankful for its sweetness, and learn, if we are wise, to be still better. Patience brings forth peace, success, happiness and security. 2. CONFIDENCE The law being just, perfect, it is not possible for an understanding person to be uneasy about it. If we are uneasy and have no confidence, it shows clearly that we have not grasped the reality of the law. We are really quite safe beneath its wings, and there is nothing to fear in the entire wide universe except out own misdeeds. The Law makes man stand on his own feet and rouses his self- confidence. Confidence, strengthens, or rather deepens our peace and happiness and makes us comfortable, courageous; wherever we go the Law is our protector. 3. SELF-RELIANCE As we in the past have caused ourselves to be what we now are, so by what we do now will our future be determined. A knowledge of this fact and that the glory of the future is limitless, gives us great self-reliance, and takes away that tendency to appeal for external help, which is really no help at all. 'Purity and impurity belong to oneself, no one can purify another" says the Buddha. 4. RESTRAINT Naturally, if we realise that the evil we do will return to strike us, we shall be very careful lest we do or say or think something that is not good, pure and true. Knowledge of Kamma will restrain us from wrong doing for others' sakes as well as for our own. 5. POWER The more we make the doctrine of Kamma a part of our lives, the more power we gain, not only to direct our future, but to help our fellow beings more effectively. The practice of good Kamma, when fully developed, will enable us to overcome evil and limitations, and destroy all fetters that keep us from our goal, Nibbana. Questions 1. Can we change our kamma? 2. What other lessons that we can learned from the Law of Kamma? Answers (Module 2.7) 1. Why not everything is due to Kamma? The law of cause and effect (Kamma) is only one of the twenty-four causes described in Buddhist philosophy, or one of the five orders (Niyamas), which are laws in themselves and operate in the universe. 2. What kind of kamma takes effect in the following situation? a. A person work very hard and he then gained fame and riches. Regenerative (Janaka) Kamma, Moral Kamma and/or Supportive (Upatthambhaka) Kamma. Good Action that produce good results in this life and/or support the current good kamma to produce a better results. b. In his previous life, he is a merciless murderer but repent at his death bed and determine to make amend if he is given another opportunity to be reborn a human again. He is now a man again but born cripple. Death-proximate (Asanna) Kamma or Regenerative (Janaka) Kamma. At his deathbed he gained calm and positive vision - he reborn in the human realm again but his unwholesome action of the past produce bad results in this life. c. He can remember his past life. Garuka Kamma. A person who developed concentration and jhana in their past life produced a better and speedy results compare to a normal person in developing supernormal power in this life. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- --- End forwarded message --- 47718 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) kenhowardau Hi Phil, I agree that Kom, as you say, "saw through the error of meditating without right understanding of what was behind it." But does that leave open the possibility of meditating *with* right understanding of what was behind it? Wouldn't a person with right understanding be especially careful to avoid any formal (ritualised) vipassana practice? I think he would because it could be misleading - for him and for others. I don't know much about the daily routine of a monk. Perhaps Kom will be required by the Vinaya to sometimes sit silently with crossed legs and straight back the way the Bodhisatta did (and jhana meditators do). That might be a way of preserving the teaching, and showing respect, but nothing more, surely.(?) Ken H > I believe the conditions for people to benefit from "formal > meditation" and other seemingly intentional practices (actually > conditioned) do indeed arise. Take Kom. He meditated, then had the > chance to hear A. Sujin and saw through the error of meditating > without right understanding of what was behind it, and now > conditions have developed for him in a way that has him ordaining, > and presumably meditating again, with better understanding. Perhaps > they will change again, who knows? Perhaps I will meditate some day > too. I am meeting Rob M for the first time next week. Maybe meeting > and talking to him will be a decisive condition for becoming a > meditator the way meeting Rob K was for deepening my enthusiasm for > Abhidhamma. We have no way of knowing how conditions will work out. > A ramble there. > 47719 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon ksheri3 Evan, now you've struck upon the crux of the matter concerning a lot of my positions: you are deliberately misinterpreting what I say so as to create a dialogue that can be used for the benefit of those less versed in the psychology of the situation. While this may be an honorable act it only serves to fulfill the wills, acts, ect., of others and not the intentions that I had. This then, is the usurption of my rights to free will and determination for the communist group and those lesser, by a person not of my chosing. If my rights are to be taken away then I shall designate where those rights are going and not allow a meglamaniac to arbitrarily just "well it's a god given right that we in this or that tax bracket dole out the rights to those that we are willing to permit lick the bottoms of our shoes." Times up for the day but be on notice that I will be returning to this subject. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > <...> > -------------------------------------- > The rock is steady. The mind once it gains its steadyness is also like a > rock. > > That is all I need to say about that. > -------------------------------------- <...> 47720 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/15/05 5:02:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard Thanks for this, but really there's no need to apologise. The areas we discuss here are sensitive ones for everyone, and there is bound to be reaction from time to time. I realise it is just frustration, and nothing personal. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks very much, Jon! -------------------------------------- But I appreciate your writing and saying what you have. I hope you will keep up our exchanges as before. ------------------------------------ Howard: For sure I will happily keep up our exchanges, but hopefully not *quite* as before! ;-) ------------------------------------ Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47721 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > --- colette wrote: shed on both documents and a deeper understanding. > ... > S: yes, that's how I see it. > ... > > > So in Samyutta Nikay LVI.11 "...Wheel of Truth" we find > > > > "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is > > remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relingquishing, letting > > go and rejecting, of that same craving." > > > > I once had rooms of fine furniture, china, crystal, blah blah blah > > that I got from my youth, upbringing, but one day in L.A. I just > > said: "there's no way out, it will never end, they will continually > > demand more and more from me..." So I just up and hit the road. > .... > S: I think there can be just as much attachment, craving and suffering > whether we have or don't have all these goodies. > I think Evan made this point too. colette: ah, don't you see the exploitation going on here? They (the media megopolis) had me in a situation where my wildest fantasies had come true yet I had not grasped and possessed what they had offered to me. With this as the case then, I had the doors of consciousness at my beck & call, having the skeleton key, master key, which allowed easy access to any doorway, still they were not my doorways. They, the media megopolis, then has the chance to exploit me to open doors they would not, walk where angles fear to tred. I had the baubles & trinkets and renounced them but now they, the media, abuse the potential that I crave these things. It is a no win situation for me since they will always refuse to accept responsibility for their actions. As long as I crave they will deny me. As long as I laugh at them for their stupidity they will deny me. The media is the same as any other business in this world. Do not think there is differences. Look for the similarities and the fit into the premise that they are not human but dead, see Vampires, that they are robots, see Henry Ford and General Motors, made on an assembly line, etc. Sure some people will say that you are fulfilling your own fantasy by rationalising the truth of your parents existance into something that is not as good and sugar coated as they would like you to believe but that's from their pair of shoes, POV, from your POV you may actually be doing yourself a favor by not telling yourself falsehoods. Oh sure, like you're gonna tell me that people actually believe, and expect me to believe that the Nazis didn't exist and did not do what they did? ------------------------- Colette, as I'm sure you know well, we think the problem is the > other people's expectations, demands and so on, but of course this is just > our own thinking. The Buddha's teachings help us to really face the truth > courageously and see that the only demands and expectations and cravings > that really hurt are our own. colette: that's old hat deary. It's not an easy path to follow, but the > bread crumbs are there for those with the honesty to see them and pick > them up. > .... > > >Damn > > those baubles and trinkets. I have learned how to do this so very > > very well since 1981 that it's part of me. If ya don't believe me > > then look how much clothes I have that all came from the church and > > the dumpster. It really isn't that important since IT IS NOT ME MY > > SELF. > ... > S: No, it's not important unless we make it important. Again, as Evan > stressed, understanding the teachings has nothing to do with being rich or > poor, dressed one way or another or following any particular lifestyle. > They are for anyone who can appreciate the benefit. Each time we judge > others or feel embittered in anyway, we pile on the suffering, so to > speak. colette: I think my agrivation comes from the fact that people who are wealthy and have a spoon with slow poison stuck in their mouths from cradle to grave, <...>, is that they are so consumed with greed that they actually manifest the situations where others will do this type of research and study so as to come along and without any effort lay claim to the results and thereby vindicate an entire existance of the class struggle and the aristocracy supposed god-given-right to murder people, horde wealth, etc. > > I follow all your posts. I can only say that you have a lot of good > friends here, Colette. Give the Theravada teachings a chance and let us > give you support on the path. > > As I've been saying to others, apart from quick comments here and there, I > may not be able to respond to any new messages for sometime as I'm going > on a trip soon. colette: is that a universal trip that we're all destined to be taking at one time or another? Hopefully not and we can enjoy your company at a latter date, but if it is then I can only say how lucky you must be to be able to laugh at the suffering of this world. via con dios, colette 47722 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: Sutta name egberdina Hi Chris (and thanks to Howard and Larry for the links) and all, It is good to see you popping up here and there :-) I am sure that it would turn out to be a very rewarding experience if I was able to make it to Cooran, but alas, I'm going to have to make do with Jon and Sarah in Sydney. Oh well :-) Some more below. > > Thanks for posting Michael Olds' translation, it was nice to read it > again. He created the Buddhadust site which he has chosen to > permanently take down. Disappointing - as it was a valuable and > refreshing resource, and visited regularly by many of us. > I have been thinking a lot about the translators art lately. I am of course not even a translators left nostril, but at the moment I am acutely aware of the gravity of rendering the words of the Buddha in another tongue, while maintaining the meaning. Translating is quite different to offering one's own interpretation of what is read, because it is generally obvious that the interpretation is the writer's, not the Buddha's. But when one starts with "Thus have I heard" or "I hear tell" it is quite another matter. Lately there has been some comment on dsg that individual suttas should be read in light of the entire Canon and commentaries. And from my visits to sites that busy themselves with translating Pali texts, it is obvious that there are translators who render words according to their reading of the entire Canon, not just the sutta at hand. I am starting to think that every sutta translation should be accompanied by a list of the individual original words and their individual translations, with the translations being limited to the words only (translators ought to refrain from putting doctrinal spin on words). This way, it is the reader who constructs the meaning of the sutta, not the translator. I would highly value your thoughts, and any one else's , on this matter. Kind Regards Herman 47723 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:05pm Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi Agrios, I can relate to what you are saying. Just to make sure I am not going to be misunderstood, I want to make it clear that I do not think of what I am writing about as useful or an attainment of sorts, but it is real. > > ------ > > N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the > object so > > that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible > object, > > and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. > [...] > Hi Nina and all, > you are actually explaining papanca sanna sankhara. > I am not curious about thinking which arises from various sources, > but rather about mental pictures popping up by themself, without any > thinker being involved. They may originate in portfolio of sanna > created tags. I can't say. > > Let me give few examples: > A person is listening to the music with his/her eyes closed. > Visual images will start to pop-up in the mind. > There are sota related processes going on, but mano vinnana is > pictorial. > Visual specifics of them are not actually reminiscent of anything > known. > I can get into what I call a certain state of dissociation, and then a slide show starts playing with rapidly changing images. As in your description, I can't relate the images to anything I know. As to the source of it, I wonder as well, but have no idea. I hadn't come across the term papanca sanna sankhara before, but it sounds like a pretty useful term. A salient feature of memory is that relates things. A marked object is meaningless without a context of other (absent) marked objects. Kind Regards Herman > Or: > A person is practicing and sudden whip of visually intensive nature, > let say brightness or movement of some red shapes pops up in mind, > triggering various reactions. > > Or: > A person is about to sleep but sudden shake of unknown to me origin > is giving his/her feeling of deep chill. There is body reaction > of skin and hair standing up. > > I am interested in origination of it back to the source. > What is the source of it. > > With much respect, > Agrios. 47724 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:46pm Subject: Re: Sutta name corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Lately there has been some comment on dsg that individual suttas > should be read in light of the entire Canon and commentaries. And from > my visits to sites that busy themselves with translating Pali texts, > it is obvious that there are translators who render words according to > their reading of the entire Canon, not just the sutta at hand. > > I am starting to think that every sutta translation should be > accompanied by a list of the individual original words and their > individual translations, with the translations being limited to the > words only (translators ought to refrain from putting doctrinal spin > on words). This way, it is the reader who constructs the meaning of > the sutta, not the translator. > > I would highly value your thoughts, and any one else's , on this matter. Hi Herman I don't have time to become a Pali translator, so I have to rely on the scholarship of others. I think I made the point once before (and I think it was to you, actually) that, to be able to judge the merit of others' scholarship, one really needs to be a scholar oneself. So there's the rub - how to know which is the better scholarship when one has little knowledge in the field of expertise. Just as well that knowledge and wisdom are not one and the same thing!! I think it is a good idea to have access to the original Pali and various translations of it. A good reminder that the translation issue is a factor to be considered. Of course, here at DSG, some people espouse using Pali terms instead of English translations but this annoys others who see it as arrogant etc. Re your suggestion that words in a sutta should be translated to fit that sutta without regard to how the word is used in other suttas is problematic. The translator must surely then explain why the same word is being translated differently in different parts of the suttanta. If there is a valid explanation, bring it on ... Otherwise we end up with a Kant-style dog's breakfast [the philosopher Kant was a prolific writer who changed the meanings/definitions of terms he used throughout his career, such that one really needs to date the Kant piece one is reading to know precisely what he is on about - it could mean something very different if it came from a different part of his career.] Also, I'm sure you are familiar with Biblical translation controversy which spans several languages. At least we are only concerned with Pali here! In summary, language translation is a difficulty we can't escape but we should always be aware of it. Thanks for raising it. Best wishes Andrew T 47725 From: "agriosinski" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:04pm Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: [...] > I can get into what I call a certain state of dissociation, and then a > slide show starts playing with rapidly changing images. As in your > description, I can't relate the images to anything I know. > > As to the source of it, I wonder as well, but have no idea. [...] Hi Herman, yeah.. seems we are talking about the same thingy :) This things seems to be kamma related, definitely Self made, and the more carefully I observe them, the more there is of them. Thinking about them leads nowhere, just more propositions to check out. Experience is having profound impact on my life, literally ruling big part of it. It feels like they are some sort of visualisations of objects Self makes in this objectless reality. I wonder if there is any abidhammic explanation to it. There is great work by Nobel laureate Gerald Edelman called NGS theory, if you are interested. metta, Agrios. 47726 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:36pm Subject: I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nichiconn hi, dsg, apologies for all the careless spelling and other sloppiness: i am just too lazy right now to look up whatever, however they might be spelled, the names of the 3 rounds i guessed at don't wanna wait around to get answers for other questions... who all is who, etc. and don't know that i'll ever get back to finishing, so.... peace, c. ps. thank you. ====== I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 friday, 29 oct 2005 discussion with ajahn sujin [ta], sarah, nina, john, jill, azita, shakti, christine 'nor kill' hotel garden sikkhim? : alright, and we're away : ready to go? : ok : here we are in sikkhim sitting in a lovely garden and it's nina's last day with us and i know that what she'd really like to hear about most is the, : seeing and visible object : well, seeing and visible object and also about the three rounds maybe even more, about saccinyana kiccinyana katinyana so, perhaps, i don't know if there's any aspect in particular you'd like to hear about, Nina? : Anything in particular? : I feel that the reminders that you gave to us in the situation help most to understand the 3 rounds so that we see more that's not theory and at first we heard it again and again and it's uh we could repeat it, what you said, but now, slowly, it becomes more meaningful anyway but we like to keep on listening and having reminders in the situation of daily life in the situation of this trip. it's very, very helpful because in two weeks i can learn more than in a whole year or so at home. ta: if we don't forget that the teachings of buddha is according to his understanding and enlightenment, we'll not be careless and think that it's very easy. because even one word from the book, uh, brought down by those arahatas who knew so well the meaning of the words and they had enlighten all those realities, too. so for us, i think that as one read the tipitaka, one should know whether it is one's one understanding or not yet. this is the most important thing. because the panna can not be the same like those, so whenever one reads, one shouldn't be heedless about this or that word, but one should consider more and more. as we said yesterday about visible object, see? seeing and visible object. it is now. and it is so common for those who do not study, just that. or those who just learn to think about the name, like seeing, nama and visible object, rupa. That is not enough. because buddha didn't just develop his understanding just to tell us about the name of all these realities, but he had to use the term to define and to point out the characteristic of reality, for those who is not careless will develop gradually until it's one's own understanding. For example, visible object is now is one's own understanding that it's just that which can be seen? : i wasn't honed in on a word you said there because I've, some people have talked about, you know, feeling lazy if you don't do something, but you're saying if you're not careless. and that, again, it's talking about mindfulness, but can you say a bit more about the care? ta: ah, when one's, for the word careless, one shouldn't be careless, it means there is viriya, so one is not careless. It doesn't mean that we have to talk about viriya some other time, but at the moment of talking about visible object and there can be the wise attention, very carefully, that what is appearing now cannot be anything at all but that which can be seen, just very fast, from moment to moment, and viriya is there. It doesn't mean that one is lazy at all when one study the teaching. : that's very helpful. thank you. ta: uh huh. this is the careful of studying, to know when there is viriya but people might think that they have to do other extra thing, not like this moment. but now there is viriya. who knows? those who had enlighten know, knew about this, but for the person who just begin to read, one has to consider that no one can do any viriya or no one can create any viriya because viriya is there already. so who can do anything? it's there. it arises and it falls away. who can do, anything? realities are conditioned. Develop right understanding more and more until it becomes one's own penetration of the true nature of realities. : so it's really, it's like anything else, Khun Sujin, by the seem of it. that it is actually building habits. : right : this is kusala habit, this is habit of the highest degree. : yes, yes, yes ta: if one knows that understanding has to develop until it can pentrate reality at this moment, one knows that one is in the wrong, in uh, the right path. not wrong, because now there is reality, but panna cannot approach the characteristic of reality without more and more saccayana(?), see? so there must be saccayana first before there can be the kiccayana (?) , which means the realities which are the path are performing or working their way on to understand better and better of the reality which is now appearing. Never enough. Panna is never enough. whether what one hear is from just taken from the book, or just by developing more understanding until it's one's own words, one's own understanding, so one can help the other to understand by different accumulations. For example, khun nina's accumulation, khun sarah accumulation, and khun jonothan accumulation, and the others' accumulation, they can present what they know by their own words, their own understanding, like those in the buddha's time. : if we ask ourselves that question and the conclusion is that it's all still in the book, uh, what, uh, what can we do? : laughter ta: by knowing that it's just from the book, then one knows there is also the path leading to experience reality as it is, but not in one's life as one expect. but one knows by oneself how much one begin to understand the moments with awareness and without awareness. that's why before his death, by the time he was at vessali, buddha went along to kusijinara, what he taught for all those 3 months was about satipatthana jon: in the mahaparinibbana sutta ta: m hm, yeah. otherwise, how can he, how could he develop such things for being the sammasambuddho if he couldn't help anyone to become enlightened? nina: sitting in the bus and it is very, very hard ta: what about now? : laughter nina: easier! : so much accumulations hardness, hardness, hardness nina: because here you remind us we have reminder but when we are sitting in the bus without you it's harder ta: uh, you see that when we talk about visible object and we don't forget that it arises and falls away so fast then we know that as fast as that, so, whenever there's a little understanding of it, it's gone. see? so we do not cling any more to any thing because at the moment of a glimpse of understanding that it's just a reality and then there can be more and more moment and then there will be less and less attachment to nimitta and anubyanjana. so one one can understand what is in the teachings about have having less attachment to nimitta and anubyanjana. not just by thinking that now i don't have clinging, but it must be the moment of awareness. because at that very moment there must be a characteristic of a reality appearing to sati so how can there be nimitta and anubyanjana, see? so when we're getting used to the characteristic of reality, more and more, which are not the same as before at all, because each one is conditioned and goes away so fast, all the time. : so in the initial stages, Khun Sujin, I mean at the stage of um, vipassanyana that knows the difference between nama and rupa, in the initial stages, it seems as though it's, you know, the characteristic : is not clear, ya? ta: It has to be like that. when the children go to kindergarten school, they don't know any a b c d. they learn little by little and after that, when time pass they can read fluently, see. so i think that if one keeps on thinking about vipassanyana it's quite a hindrance. because one just, what do you call, speculate, how is that moment, how can it become as clear as realities, see? So, I think that as one knows the difference between moments with awareness and moment without awareness, without thinking, without speculating, it helps. because at that moment there is no room for lobha to come in, but lobha, no one can stop it because there are stores (laugh) for its arising more, very often. But panna can know, and panna can see that it's a reality, so that there will be less agitation when there is akusala. It takes time to really understand reality at this moment. we keep on talking about cetasikas, see, at this very moment: phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekagata, jivitindriya, manasikara. No one appears to sati because it just arises and goes away instantly, but whenever there is sati it begins to see the characteristic which is not that which is rupa but it is nama, or the nama which is not the rupa, see? This must be very clear comprehended. otherwise, it's not clear. so one cannot make it clear when it's not clear. but that can develop, too, very gradual, clearer and clearer. In one's life one cannot know whether it will become as clear as one think about it. : when we were in, let me see, nalanda we were talking about sappaya or what is suitable like sappaya sampajanna and you were saying about, you know, what is suitable IF there is right understanding, so for example, nina yesterday was just talking about oh, in the bus, not so good or here more suitable and of course any time is ok, but we read for example, in the satipatthana sutta about the right place and the right climate for the people with understanding to develop satipatthana. so now the climate at this moment seems very suitable. does it refer to um just you know, experiences through the body sense like if one's healthy for example, if there is understanding, being support conditions at that moment, is this the meaning? ta: there is not only one suitable thing for right understanding and buddha knew the whole suitable things for the whole world or : all the different conditions, right. ta: yeah, so what he talked suits someone for that suitable thing and for the other, but, but if you don't mind at all because satipatthana does not mind, yeah. but as the beginner one might think that o, i cannot do this because i'm so tired and things like that. : I'm sick, or ta: it's true, see, for that moment : but it's uh, i mean when one talks about these things like oh i'm too tired or i'm sick or climate isn't right and then it refers to the climate or whatever, it has to be realities because these are just different stories or concepts, so when it talks about what the buddha knew as being suitable at that moment and it just mentions oh place and climate, it's actually referring to what is heard and experiences through body sense to the realities at that moment to support conditions, is that correct? ta: much more than just what is said : much deeper ta: so, one reads with deeper understanding : like going to the holy places and paying respect to the relics, of course, it depends on the understanding at that moment. i think that understanding sappaya (or what is suitable), it has to go deeper and deeper because in the beginning one reads oh what is suitable is the right place or the right person, or even when you were mentioning in nalanda, about listening. i mean, listening doesn't just mean how much you, how many hours you hear Dhamma or something like that, it can, you know, when one's reading, just a line of a sutta there may be more wise reflection than when one listens for two hours, it just depends. : I think this sappaya must be just a momentary thing. and as i understand it would apply to i mean whether i decide to stay here or go on the outing rather than, i mean, i think we tend to think of a bit of a macro picture like which country should i live in or would it be better if i um change my job or something like that, but I think that kind of thinking of conditions is slightly artificial and is not what it's referring to. but it's referring to more you know on a moment to moment basis of deciding to do a instead of b just at that instant of making a decision rather than planning to have things a certain way, because we can't control the outcome : and we may get on the bus and it may be sappaya, it may be suitable at that moment : of course, it could : because there may be some : other people on the bus : or just one's own wise reflection on the bus or one may just sit here and just be lost in in one's lobha who knows? : yeah, yeah, yeah ta: see that we are talking about this in order to have less attachment because the teachings concern about detachment from the very beginning, with understanding. Without understanding there cannot be detachment at all. When Jonothan said like this one is detached from places which is one thinks suitable : better or useful or people even : there's a very fine line between attachment towards, i can imagine in the buddha's time, but more particularly now, you know that, we seem, speak for myself, whenever 'Dhamma discussion!', forget the bus, who cares about lakes or tibetan monasteries and you know, many different moments, but even back in the buddha's time there would have been a lot of attachment i can imagine to the buddha and to, well, attachment to the teachings rather than just understanding of the value of the teachings : different moments? ta: as long as it's not completely eradicated : and then there's the sutta of the monk who went to the buddha and said give me a teaching in brief so that I can go off and live apart and contemplate and the buddha gave him a teaching in brief, which he, i mean the buddha didn't say, well, you know, hang around here and you'll hear more here because he : knew : conditions, yeh ta: he knew his accumulations, yes : i appreciated the other day when you gave the one simplistic teaching of distilling everything down to the one word: anatta. and it was like ok, it feels so ok, i can think my whole, or contemplate the whole life on just this ta: by contemplate, what do you mean? : just to reflect that all the everything i perceive to be i, me or mine really is anatta ta: not about one particular : yes, ta: reality like seeing now? : yes, also touching ta: seeing now, touching now. yeah, very particular reality : I like the stress on this moment and i also liked it very much yesterday when you said when there's pain and no panna, it's my pain, and when there is panna it's just a reality, just a dhamma. i found that....{ends} 47727 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:09pm Subject: The 10 mental perfections in their three levels ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The three Stages of Mental Perfection: The 10 Mental Perfections (paramis = paramitas) are: 1: Generosity (Dana) 2: Morality (Sila) 3: Withdrawal (Nekkhamma) 4: Understanding (Panna) 5: Enthusiastic Energy (Viriya) 6: Patient Forbearance (Khanti) 7: Honesty & Truthfulness (Sacca) 8: Resolute Determination (Adhitthana) 9: Kind Friendliness (Metta) 10: Balanced Equanimity (Upekkha) The Buddha said: 'So few as these only, are these supreme mental qualities, which matures Awakening. There is nothing elsewhere beyond them! Be thorough, firm & complete in them...' These 10 mental perfections are developed to these three levels: I: Those who awakens as disciples = Savaka-Bodhis (basic level) give all possessions away including wife and kids... II: Those who awakens as Solitary Buddhas = Pacekkha-Buddhas give an organ, limb or eye away... (intermediate level) III: Those who awakens as Perfect Buddhas = SammasamBuddhas give even their own life away. (ultimate level) The basic perfection of generosity is the relinquishing of one's children, wives, and belongings, such as wealth; the intermediate perfection of giving, the relinquishing of one's own limbs; and the ultimate perfection of giving, the relinquishing of one's own life. The three stages in the perfection of morality should be understood as the non-transgression of morality on account of the three: children and wife, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of withdrawal, as the withdrawal of those three bases after cutting off attachment to them; the three stages in the perfection of understanding, as the discrimination between what is beneficial and harmful to beings after rooting out craving for one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of energy, as striving for the relinquishing of the aforementioned things; the three stages in the perfection of patience, as the endurance of obstacles to one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of Honesty, as the non-abandoning of honesty on account of one's belongings, limbs, & life; the three stages of perfection of determination, as unshakeable determination despite the destruction of one's belongings, limbs, & life, bearing in mind that perfections ultimately succeed through a unflinching determination; the three stages in the perfection of friendliness, as the maintaining of friendliness towards any who destroy one's belongings; the three stages in the perfection of equanimity, as maintaining an attitude of impartial neutrality towards beings & constructions, whether they are helpful or harmful in regard to the aforementioned three: belongings, limbs, and life. In this way the analysis of the mental perfections should be understood. Source: Commentary on the Basket of Behaviour: Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi in: Treatise on the Perfections: Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views _________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 47728 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarah abbott wrote: > "Intention always comes first' etc. Dhp1 > Usually I think 'mind' is used. Indeed. It is an experimental rendering: BTW: How is Mind defined? As which 5 things? : - ] 47730 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Ken > I agree that Kom, as you say, "saw through the error of meditating > without right understanding of what was behind it." But does that > leave open the possibility of meditating *with* right understanding > of what was behind it? Wouldn't a person with right understanding be > especially careful to avoid any formal (ritualised) vipassana > practice? I think he would because it could be misleading - for him > and for others. You know Ken, answering this question is way beyond my understanding and would just be speculating. We know that in the suttas there are monks who meditate with right understanding and benefit from it. I often hear that people these days simply don't have the accumulated wisdom, I think, that people in the Buddha's day had. I don't know exactly why that is - I'm sure there are texts that support it- but except for the odd post here I don't think about meditating. On occasion I find myself sitting on our tatami floor, drinking tea, and lo and behold I find myself meditating using the method I learned before but it just feels silly. For me, silly, and drenched in lobha. But I think since we don't know the accumulations of others it is best not to say that all meditators are operating with wrong view. It might be easier for Kom to fall into it in a natural, unforced way since he is Thai, and if I recall all or most Thai men ordain at some point, for shorter or longer periods. Perhaps there are family expectations for him to do so that would allow him to fall into it without having too much greed for results. Who knows? Best to give people the benefit of the doubt, as Kel said the other day. > I don't know much about the daily routine of a monk. Perhaps Kom will > be required by the Vinaya to sometimes sit silently with crossed legs > and straight back the way the Bodhisatta did (and jhana meditators > do). That might be a way of preserving the teaching, and showing > respect, but nothing more, surely.(?) I wonder. It would have been interesting to hear from Kom. He spoke so lucidly about why he stopped meditating. But we needn't think about others so much. It's our own accumulations that are important. We will know or won't know why meditating involves or would involve wrong view. Panna will know. If you don't mind, I'd like to drop the topic there. I do hope we'll hear from Kom again someday, whether he's a monk or not. Metta, Phil 47731 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:52am Subject: Re: Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Thanks for the thoroughly researched and presented post. It is a pleasure to discuss suttas with you. Nina: All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. James: I'm not sure what you mean here. Questions about what is "real" as opposed to "unreal" don't seem that important to the Buddha's teaching, as far as I can tell. The Buddha didn't raise questions of what was real as opposed to what was not real- he actually discouraged such speculative thought. He taught that disciples must know the elements in order to be wise and to foser detachment. In my opinion, emphasizing what is 'real' as opposed to 'not real' will encourage attachment to what one deems as 'real'. The elements are the elements; they are not superior, inferior or equal to anything else. Nina: In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the relevant sense-cognitions. When the listeners in the Buddha's time heard: they were not passive listeners, they could be aware then and there of visible object or seeing, without confusing them and thus they could realize their falling away, one at a time. They would not confuse eye-door and mind-door, seeing and thinking, they would not take dhammas together as a whole, a concept, and so many of them could attain enlightenment while they listened. James: You seem to be making a logical connection here that I just don't read in this sutta. This is the connection you make, as I see it: Confusing nama and rupa ---> Taking dhammas together as a whole ---> Taking dhammas as a concept ---> Not being able to attain enlightenment. Now, I'm a stickler on the Buddha's word and I don't see the Buddha making this type of connection in this sutta. Sure, you could maybe draw this conclusion, but drawing conclusions is rather dangerous for worldlings. I find it better to stick specifically to the Buddha word. (I know that this dogmatic approach can be rather boring for a discussion group, when everyone wants to present opinions and speculate outcomes, but the dhamma isn't supposed to be used as a form of 'entertainment'.) Nina: When you are back I would like to read more suttas with you. Starting another thread? James: How very kind of you to ask. I highly value the discussion and reading of suttas, especially with one as learned as you. I will see what things are like when I return. I will be in a temporary flat for a while and my Nikaya collection is packed away, except DN which I am currently reading. Things may be very hectic for me at my new school at the beginning. We will play it by ear. But please, do present any suttas in the meantime that you would like to discuss. Metta, James 47732 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok buddhatrue Hi Nick (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Nick, (Sukin and all), > > Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting. > --- Nicholas Benedict wrote: > > > Hi, This is my first post. > > I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a > > teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here > > for English speakers or foreigners? > ... > S: Yes, you're going to get a lot of help. I know Sukin (and maybe Betty > and Ivan Matt if they're reading) will 'adopt' you and help with lots of > details and answer any questions. others who've spent time in Bangkok like > James or Phil may add comments too. I'm afraid I don't know of any meditation groups in Bangkok. When I was in Thailand the first time it was for vacation and I mainly visited temples, attended dhamma talks, and such. The second time I was at Wat Pah Nanachat, which is composed of English speaking monks, but the Vice Abbott himself told me that they try to discourage visitors and giving dhamma talks/lessons to the laity- some nonsense about how too many visitors could ruin the 'forest temple atmosphere'. So, I don't recommend that anyone go to that temple for any reason. Metta, James 47733 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > I hope you're enjoying your break in Arizona. It must be quite a change of > scene. James: Thanks. Yes, it is quite different- but maybe not in ways you would expect. I will probably send out a private update later. Have you been back to your temple? James: No, not yet. Transportation problems- the heat broke my mom's radiator! ;-)). But, my dad got four used computers to donate to the temple so I will be visiting them as soon as possible. > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >S: James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in > > suttas with > > > our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at > > dhammas > > > more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and > > mine. > > > > James: I didn't comment about 'dhammas', I commented about the > > content of suttas. > ... > S: Ah, but isn't the content of suttas about dhammas? > .... James: No, not always. Most of the suttas are about what you would call 'concepts'. > > > You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this > > because I > > > see the truths as being common or universal. > > > > James: Then, in other words, you speak in a generalized way because > > you believe that you embody the 'truths'? > ... > S: No, I don't believe this. The `truths' are all there are. Let's take > the khandhas – they are not inside or outside or belonging to anyone. > There only are the khandhas arising and falling away. This is what I > believe or what the thinking which I call `I' believes at this moment. > .... James: Ah, I like that last qualification: "This is what I believe or what the thinking which I call `I' believes at this moment." That is getting closer to my point. > >Do you believe that > > everyone embodies the 'truths'? Aren't there differences between > > people? > ... > S: Not only for different people but also for us – different cittas and > cetasikas experiencing and being experienced at each moment. So the truth > is that what we take for people and ourselves are just these different > namas and rupas too, of course. > .... James: This dialogue is between 'Sarah' and 'James'- not between isolated namas and rupas. But, again, we are getting back to the old absolute reality vs. conventional reality discussion. > >Why can't you single yourself out as being different from > > others? Why can't you see the dhamma in a more personalized way, as > > applying to you and your life? > ... > S: It's no problem, but usually I don't find it helpful. To give you a > `personalized' example: I read Azita's comments about annoyance with > people and I started reflecting on how I don't think so much about people > or find them annoying as I might have in the past. But immediately as I > thought like this, there was attachment and conceit and clinging to an > idea of `my thinking' and `my lesser annoyance'. James: Excellent example of mindfulness. I think that without the critical self-judgement it would be perfect. > > See here how the banner is up and flying already without needing to > advertise it further or cling to it anymore. Better to just understand > these dhammas – the thinking, the annoyance, the attachment, the > conceit—as conditioned dhammas, not self at all. When it's all `my > experience', there's no understanding of the Buddha's teachings. James: See, now here you are trying to tell 'yourself' that there is 'no self' so there 'should' be no attachment. I find this approach to be artifical and a forcing of insight that isn't natural. > > I think that such attachment to `self' catches us off-guard all the time. > But it's just another dhamma and awareness can slip in at anytime, even > when there's useless thinking with papanca going on like this. James: Yes, there is attachment to 'self', but awareness doesn't include 'should be's' or 'better to's'- it just is. > > I hope that helps and is `personal' enough:). You see, I'm trying to work > toward agreement too:)). James: Yes, very nice revealing of personal thought processes. I appreciate it. I will be happy to return the favor if you should ask. > ..... > > James: Again, I wasn't talking about 'dhammas', I was talking about > > DN 8 "The Great Lion's Roar". The Buddha doesn't mention 'dhammas' in > > that sutta. > ... > S: He's talking about wholesome and unwholesome states and the path out of > samsara. I read these as being dhammas. James: You would need to explain a bit more, if you wish. I think we use different terminology. > .... > <...> > >>Another short favourite > > sutta or > > > rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen > > Mallika > > > which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. > > > > James: No, that sutta said that Queen Mallika found herself dearest, > > not that everyone does that; and the Buddha agreed that we should > > each hold ourselves dearest. Maybe you should re-visit that sutta. > .... > S: Qu Mallika: `There is no one...dearer to me than myself.' > > K. Pasenadi: `Neither is there anyone...dearer to me than myself.' > > The Buddha: `On traversing all directions with the mind > One finds no one anywhere dearer than oneself.'. > .... > S: I think this makes it pretty clear that this is a common affliction > before such attachment has been eradicated. > > Did the Buddha agree that we should each hold ourselves dearest? I don't > think so. > > `Likewise everyone holds himself most dear, > Hence one who loves himself should not harm another.' > > In other words, just as we are very attached to ourselves, so are others. > Bearing this in mind, we should treat others well. > > The commentary which I've quoted before makes this very clear, I believe. > > "....whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) > excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in > any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.......since each being holds the > self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for > whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting > well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, > should not even antagonize with the hand, a clod of earth or a stick and > so on, another being......For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some > other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one's > (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law > of karma." (Masefiled transl of comy, Ireland transl of sutta, Sona > Chapter 1, Udana) > .... James: Oh Sarah, this would be a huge tangle to unravel and it couldn't be done through this posting method. Let me just make it simple: the Buddha taught that his monks should generate a heart full of lovingkindness (see DN 8 we have been discussing). The Vism. describes the cultivation of lovingkindness as beginning with lovingkindness toward oneself. Now, you are going to find various obscure passages of suttas and commentaries to refute the nature and spirit of this because, as we have established earlier in this post, you artifically downplay the importance of yourself in order to reach some idealized notion of anatta. There is a dichotomy here which can't be reconciled by you or K. Sujin (as I noted in a previous post). > > I wasn't suggesting to cultivate more thoughts about 'me'; I was > > suggesting that maybe it isn't healthy or natural to blur the > > distinctions between me, you, and us. > ... > S: I'm suggesting that the sooner dhammas are seen for what they are, not > me, you and us, the better. James: Of course, wave that flag of anatta! ;-)) Of course this doesn't mean at all that we > forget who we're talking to or have any difficulty relating on a > conventional level. > .... James: ;-)) I hope you don't think this after-though solves anything. > > James: Oh, let's focus more on where we agree than where we > > disagree. Believe it or not, I am trying to work toward agreement. > ... > S: I can see that and I think we've made some progress. Anyway, we both > agree that there's a lot to usefully consider in the sutta you selected > and that the teachings are very deep. > > I do find it difficult to post on the road, James, and find it a good > chance to work on the tape editing etc instead if I have any free time. > However, I will be following the list very closely and will try to chip in > briefly here and there, so no need for any panic attacks..lol:-)) > Seriously, you always say the list is better when the moderators go > away(or when we give the illusion of doing so), so enjoy! I'll look > forward to more discussions (apart from any `chip-ins') with you later. James: Well, I must have been gone when you wrote this- so I didn't get to enjoy that feeling of reckless freedom with the moderators away! ;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Metta, James 47734 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Hi Jon, > > > > > >... > >It amazes me how you keep coming back to this subject. Do you think > >I am an expert on satipatthana or something? ;-)) > > > > Yes I do think that; isn't everyone on this list an expert in > satipatthana? ;-)) ;-)) James: ;-)) Wouldn't that be nice. > > Seriously though, I see you as an independent thinker but at the same > time as someone who has sufficient confidence in or respect for the > texts to be wary about disregarding what is there simply because it > appears not to concur with your experience to date. James: This is a very nice compliment! Thank you. > > But to be frank, that is not why I have been pursuing this topic. I > have been questioning your interpretation of the kayanupassana section > of the Satipatthana Sutta as laying down 'activities' that are > 'conducive to insight'. That is why in my last post I asked you how you > see the development of mindfulness under those sections of the sutta > that do not specify any 'actions conducive to insight'. > > The response you gave to that question (below) doesn't really answer the > question, as far as I can see. However, I don't wish to press the > subject if you'd rather not continue the discussion. James: I don't mind continuing the discussion, but it hasn't really been a discussion. It has been you asking me question after question and me trying my best to answer them. The discussion would go better if you would just lay your cards on the table; in other words, tell me what you are thinking without asking me any questions. > > Apologies if you feel 'nitpicked' (see Herman's post) ;-)) James: Herman is right, I do feel nitpicked at times. But that is because you tend to ask leading questions rather than being direct about what you are thinking. > > Jon Metta, James 47735 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: 30 vedananupassanas or 30 contemplations on feeling htootintnaing Dear Tep and interested members, I think it is a good idea to check meaning of 1. passati 2. contemplate 3. think 4. consciousness 5. thought 6. viharati 7. dwell 8. stay 9. live 10.perceive 11.mind 12.mental state Whatever you and others check these words in different English dictionaries or not I will be answering your questions below. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: This new chopped-series with changing heading is for practical matters. They are kept simple. But need a lot of information when one considers to start the journey. This does not mean 'a lot of theory is needed before going for practice and vice versa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Friend Htoo - In the message # 47703 you wrote : > Htoo: > > In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 > > contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or > vinnaana- kkhandha. Tep: Could you please describe how you may "contemplate on consciousness"? The cittanupassana satipatthana is based on contemplation of mental states, not a direct contemplation of citta <"There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion."> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: a)Dear Tep. I was confused because you reply 'vedananupassana' and ask on 'cittanupassana'. I do not know why you did not reply to cittanupassana directly. b)'contemplate on consciousness'? Your question sounds like a trap and may end up with disaster when not satisfy. c) I described 48 mental states under the heading of cittanupassana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > 1. this is pleasant feeling. > > 2. this is unpleasant feeling. > > 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. > > 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) > > 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) ... ... .... .... > > There are originations of these feeling. This is another > > contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these > > feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is > > thinking on both origination and dissolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Could you please describe how one may do "contemplation" on feeling? You mentioned "thinking" above ("The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution".). Is contemplation equivalent to thinking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is why I suggested to check in my introduction of this reply. I wrote just simply and for mixed population of different levels of proficiency of English, Pali, Dhamma, and vipassana practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: You also mentioned "thoughts" along with contemplation. sensuous unpleasant feeling (displeasure thoughts)..> Is "contemplation on feeling" equivalent to contemplating thought? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Feeling never arise alone. Feeling never exists on its own. These always are other mental bodies like 'perception' 'formation' 'consciousness'. Right now you are reading this message. There is an activity of reading. In that activities there are many events. Leaving physical phenomena, there are many mental phenomena. Whatever it is your mind when it is reading is engaged in an activity. That acitvity is 'mind work'. 1. visual object -> eye-consciousness (this is also 'mind activity' 2. auditory object->ear-consciousness 3. aromatic object->nose-consciousness 4. gustatory object->tongue-consciousness 5. tangible object->body-consciousness 6. mind-object -> mind-consciousness Leaving the first 5 consciousness, all consciousness arise in your mind while reading. So what you have been doing is 'processing of thinking into different blocks of understanding when you are reading'. So in reading the activity is 'thinking'. This means 'you think'. What you think are your thoughts. They are being thought. So 'displeasure thoughts' that I used is 'about feeling when I was discussing on feeling'. Because feeling arise in each and every thought and each and every sense-consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: How can feeling = thought and yet contemplation = thinking? (Htoo: "The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution") I am confused. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Feeling is not equal to thought. I have explained why I used so in my post now in my reply to you. Check yourself on 'contemplation' and 'thinking'. Thinking is a bit general. If a consciousness is not eye- consciousness etc then it is a mind-consciousness. They may (may) be understood as 'thinking' or 'thoughts'. This word has a general sense. But 'contemplation' has a specific direction, determination, assessment, judgement and decision. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47736 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 444 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) These 12 puggalas or 12 individuals are repeated frequently for the reason that they become used to. If these have already been known just leap them. So far the first 6 puggala have been explained. 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) This individual is who know dhamma as it is. That is he sees dhamma as naama or ruupa and he does not see any illusionary things like self, man, woman, human, deva etc etc. He is free of wrong view of self-identity and he is free of suspicion in dhamma and he is free of belief in wrong practice. In this individual the possible cittas that can arise are a)7 akusala cittas ( 4 ditthi citta and 1 vicikiccha citta excluded) b)7 ahetukla akusalavipaaka cittas c)8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas d)2 ahetuka kiriya cittas(panca-dvara-avajjana and mano-dvara-avajjan) e)8 mahakusala cittas f)8 mahavipaaka cittas g)5 ruupakusala cittas ( 5 ruupa jhaanas ) h)4 aruupakusala cittas ( 4 aruupa jhaanas 0 i)1 sotapatti phala cittas(other lokuttara cittas do not arise in him) --- 50 cittas If other 7 lokuttara cittas are added there will be a total of 57 cittas. But arahatta phala citta does not arise in trainee or sikkha. So there will be 56 cittas. But as explained above other 6 lokuttara cittas do not arise in sotapatti phalatthaana puggala. If they arise they are no more sotapatti phalatthaana puggala but other puggala. 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala ( individual who becomes stream-enterer) This individual is where 'sotapatti magga citta arises'. Satopatti citta or stream-entering path-consciousness always arise at hadaya vatthu or heart base. There is no other citta in this individual. There are 5 aggregates in this individual. They are ruupakkhandha of hadaya vatthu, vedanakkhandha of feeling in stream-entering path consciousness, sannakkhandh of perception in sotapatti magga citta, sankharakkhandha (other cetasikas) in sotapatti magga citta, and vinnaakkhandha (sotapatti magga citta itself). In ultimate sense there is no man, woman, human, deva, being but these aggregates of naama and ruupa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, and any support will be valuable for all. 47737 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Public Apology to Jon htootintnaing ====================== Thank you for the kind words. Well, an apology is better than no apology, but better yet is to not create the need to apologize to begin with. And to do that requires more consistent effort at guarding the senses. So, my lesson to learn: Be more careful in practicing what I preach! With metta, Howard -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Howard, Thank you very much Professor. Your teaching method to me (a child) is effective. Where the exits are guarded and checked properly there is no reason to appear such matters. Another good thing is apology is better than no apology. I received many many 'no apologies'. But I was really happy that when non-apologisers were doing well in their understanding of Dhamma. With greatest respect, Htoo Naing 47738 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Dear Tep, This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. Because this is a heated area. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Sarah {Attn. Kel, Howard, Nina, Larry, Htoo, Ven. Samahita and > others} - > > Sarah : > > > > Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana and > >the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his > >conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested > > in your comments too. > > ========= > > Tep: > > Thanks to Kelvin for his introduction of the article, 'The Jhanas and the > Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas', By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi : > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > Thank you Sarah for asking me to comment. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi framed his study in order to answer the following 3 > questions: > > (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhana before > entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyama), the > irreversible path to stream-entry? > (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhanas to lay disciples who have > attained stream-entry? > (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhanas to the stream- enterer, > is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their attainment > becomes essential? > > 47739 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears." > > Hi Nina, > > For me, sati comes first, then body consciousness. Why remember a body > consciousness? > > Btw, I was trying to figure out what presence is, the sense of nowness. > Maybe it is just absence of discursive thinking (concept). > > Larry ------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and Nina, It is interesting to figure out what is 'nowness'. Nowness is not passed one. And it is not what is not there. I see a tress. It is a green tree. It is green. Green is in a flag. The flag was used in an area. The area was developed. That area had been underdeveloped. Before that was the worst condition ever exist. 1. I see --> 2. shape --> 3. form --> 4. appearance --> 5. idea of tree --> 6. searching for a name --> 7. searching for a sounded name --> 8. tree --> 9. trying to characterise the tree --> 10. recognising the colour --> 11. searching for the name of colour --> 12. green 13. matching something in the past --> 14. green to green --> 15. discover the old memory --> 16. the green one --> 17. green flag 18. searching for the link --> ... ' ... ' ... --> There are many 'nowness'. Everything is nowness at now. Nowness is like the cursor running when we are typing on screen. Every letter we have typed become past and not now. What is now is the far- edge of the cursor. Likewise everything (ruupa, naama) is being typed in the samsara and at each moment all become past ones. This is anicca. With respect, Htoo Naing 47740 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:35am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 01 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 contemplations on body or 216 kaayanupassanaa. kaayaanupassana = kaaya + anupassanaa kaaya = body (this is conventional mass or physical part of beings) anupassanaa = anu + passanaa anu = 'along' 'up to' 'detail' passanaa = seeing, apperceiving kaayanupassana = seeing as things are happening in the body as they do a) 12 contemplations on breath b) 3 contemplations of implications of breath c) 12 contemplations on posture d) 3 contemplations of implication of posture e) 60 contemplations on detail movement f) 3 contemplations of implication of detail movement g) 96 contemplations on body parts h) 3 contemplations of implication of body parts i) 12 contemplations on body elements j) 3 contemplations of implication of body elements k) 27 contemplations on body foulness l) 27 contemplations of implication of body foulness --- 261 contemplations on body or 261 kaayaanupassanaa With Metta, Htoo Naing 47741 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote : > This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and > you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. > Because this is a heated area. > Not only that it is a hot "area", it also has open questions. So the debate probably may never end. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and > you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. > Because this is a heated area. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah {Attn. Kel, Howard, Nina, Larry, Htoo, Ven. Samahita and > > others} - > > > > Sarah : > > > > > > Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana > and the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his > > >conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested > > > in your comments too. > > > ========= (snipped) > > Bhikkhu Bodhi framed his study in order to answer the following 3 > > questions: > > > > (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhana before > > entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyama), > the irreversible path to stream-entry? > > (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhanas to lay disciples who > have attained stream-entry? > > (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhanas to the stream- > enterer, is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their > attainment becomes essential? > > > > 47742 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/16/05 7:53:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: I'm not sure what you mean here. Questions about what is "real" as opposed to "unreal" don't seem that important to the Buddha's teaching, as far as I can tell. The Buddha didn't raise questions of what was real as opposed to what was not real- he actually discouraged such speculative thought. He taught that disciples must know the elements in order to be wise and to foser detachment. In my opinion, emphasizing what is 'real' as opposed to 'not real' will encourage attachment to what one deems as 'real'. The elements are the elements; they are not superior, inferior or equal to anything else. ======================= Althought logically equivalent [The notions of "reality" and "unreality" are mutually dependent from the perspective of logic], I agree with you that over-emphasis on the "real" leads to clinging instead of relinqishment. The emphasis, as I see it, should be on unreality. By 'unreality' I don't mean identically the same as nonexistence, but an utter nonexistence of some things (empty even of conventional existence), and a merely conventional existence for others. Some alleged things are even conventionally nonexistent (like the Easter Bunny). Inasmuch as most people are aware of this category, we needn't pay a lot of attention here. Now, as to the second category of unreality, mere conventionally existing "things", as I see the matter, are of two sorts: 1) the projections of full-blown mental constructions (such as tables, people, trees, star systems, and TV sitcoms), and 2) the so called paramattha dhammas, for which the role of mental construction is less obvious but still a genuine factor. Now some folks object to recognizing subcategory (1), but I think it is reasonable to do so on the basis of how much mental construction is involved in the experiencing of elements of this subcategory. It isn't just the core Khun-Sujin, anti-concept, DSG-type folks who hawk this, but also the Tibetan Buddhists to an enormous extent. Other folks, particularly many on DSG, take exception to thinking of paramattha dhammas as having only conventional reality, and thus would not accept subcategory (2). But I think this is a genuine subcategory. Hardness, warmth, sights, sounds, tastes, mind-moments, pleasant feelings, cravings, concentration, mindfulness, attention, distractedness etc, AS SEPARATE REALITIES, do not exist. Conventionally they exist as separate entities, but not actually. They are accorded separate existence only on the basis of mental constructions (sankharic operations). In reality, they are interrelated facets of an inseparable experiential stream, facets either dependently co-occuring, or consecutively occurring without gap, or arising subsequently in conditioned dependence, but not existing as separate entities at all. They *seem* to be separate entities, and that seeming is a basic element of our ignorance. The analysis of wholes into parts such as in the chariot example and in khandhic analysis and ayatana analysis is a skillful means to enable one to overcome belief in entities in subcategory (1). But there lies a danger in that approach: the danger in according separate reality to "atomic" constitents that result from such analysis. Techniques to counter such error are to be found in the synthetic, relational approach of the Patthana, and more essentially in my opinion, in the use of paticcasamupada as a contemplative scheme. To sum up, I see emptiness (lack of separate existence or lack of ultimate reality) as the cognitive partner to emotional relinquishment, and I believe that it is insight into the former along with cultivation of the latter that leads to awakening. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47743 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 202 - 205. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG & SD members - This week we study paragraphs 202 - 205. Please recall that in the "exercise of mindfulness and awareness" of the first vatthu (i.e. "long in-breaths and out-breaths"), feelings, perception and applied-thoughts(vitakka) arise, are established (or "appear"), and are recognized as they subside. # Para 202 continues with applied-thoughts, and para 203 touches on the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. # Para 204 - 216 explain the terms in para 203. # Para 217 starts the second vatthu, i.e. short in-breaths & out-breaths. The same format in the first vatthu is used throughout, i.e. analysis of the object of contemplation, the foundation of mindfulness, exercise of mindfulness and full awareness, and combining the faculties, etc. 202. How are applied-thoughts recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of applied-thoughts recognized? The arising of applied-thoughts(vitakka) is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of applied- thoughts ...With the arising of craving ...With the arising of action (kamma) ...With the arising of perception ... [and so on as in para 200, substituting 'perception' for 'contact' up to the end] ... This is how applied-thoughts are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. [Combining the Faculties, etc. ] 203. When he understands unificationof cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths, he combines (samodhaaneti) the faculties(indriya), understands their domain (gocara), and penetrates their meaning(attha) of sameness(sama); he combines the powers(bala) ...; he combines the enlightenment factors (bojjhanga) ...; he combines the path(magga) ...; he combines [other] ideas(dhamma), understands their domain, and penetrates their meaning of sameness. 204. He 'combines the faculties': how does he combine the faculties? He combines the faith faculty(saddha indriya) through its meaning of resolution(adhimokkha), he combines the energy faculty(viriya indriya) through its meaning of exertion(vayamati), he combines the mindfulness faculty(sati indriya) through its meaning of establishment (foundation, upatthana), he combines the concentration faculty (samadhi indriya) through its meaning of non-distraction(avikkhepa), he combines the understanding faculty(panna indriya) through its meaning of seeing(dassana). This person combines these faculties on this object. Hence, he 'combines the faculties' is said. 205. He 'understands their domain': his supporting object is his domain (gocara); his domain is his supporting object(aarammana). He understands, thus he is a person; the act-of-understanding is understanding. [Read 'aarammanam Pajaanaati puggalo. Pajaananaa pannaa'.] 'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object(aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance. Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said. Tep's Notes: The Pali 'sama' means calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). The Thai version of 'Sameness' reads: the aarammana appears as calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright citta is calmness. The closest meanings for the Pali 'attha' are profit, attainment, advantage, gain (see PTS). So it makes more sense by the Thai version of 'Meaning', which reads: dhammas without drawbacks are gain, dhammas without defilement are gain, cleansing dhammas are attainment, adhidhammas are attainment. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > This week we study 2 paragraphs, 200 - 201. Please recall the last > paragraph (#199) on the exercise of mindfulness and full awareness > (sampajanna). It indicates that through the long in- and out-breaths, the > bhikkhu "understands" unification and non-distraction of the mind and > recognizes the arising and passing-away characteristics of the three > namas: vedana, sanna, and vitakka. > 47744 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:44pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------------------ Ph: > It's our own accumulations that are important. We will know or won't know why meditating involves or would involve wrong view. Panna will know. If you don't mind, I'd like to drop the topic there. ----------------- OK, I won't talk about formal meditation any more - at least not to you: only to anyone who wants to. Actually, I think you might have asked me once before to drop the topic and I forgot - sorry about that. :-) I don't have any qualms about giving you the last word because I basically agree with what you say. One niggling exception is in the following: -------- Ph: > "We know that in the suttas there are monks who meditate with right understanding and benefit from it." -------- It worries me that you still might not have caught on. There is a difference between formal meditation and the meditation described in the texts. Or am I missing something? Sorry, don't answer that! The subject is closed. :-) Ken H 47745 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: Patient is Tolerance ... !!!,Resonation: I can see my wall vibrate ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > Patient Tolerance is the Fifth Mental Perfection: > > The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to > endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! > The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. colette: this is EXACTLY the way: in the struggle for survival, competition, war, etc, we encounter others unknown to ourselves yet they, the others, all have similar characteristics, postures, which they use to their operation of survival. In the case of a black art called the Martial Art, they would then be lunging forward, striking, and the reality is their imballance or auwkward position thus manifesting their vulnerability of retaliation or return of the negative force they used, issued, to lash outward. ------------------ > The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. > Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! colette: I understand this as being to mean that the patience of the Will manifests the knowledge of the situation, scenerio, position, of issueing the fatal blow or not and why it is wrong to strike in such manner at most times. ------------------------ > Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! > Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. colette: internal tolerance to be calm, established and resolute in the equilibrium. Without obligation to the negative actions, kamma, issued to oneself. ----------------------- <....>, at least Sarah wrote the other posts in succession for me to observe at a later date. toodles, colette > External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. > > He who patiently protects himself, protects also others. > He who patiently protects others, protects also himself. > > Not from speaking much is one called clever. > The patient one, free from anger, free from fear, > only such one is rightly called clever. > Dhammapada 258 > > Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... > Nibbana is the supreme state!!! > So say all the Buddhas. > Dhammapada 184 > > The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, > who patiently endures abuse, flogging & even > imprisonment, such one, armed with endurance, > the great force of tolerance, such one, > I call a Holy One. > Dhammapada 399 > > One should follow those who are determined, > tolerant, enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, > clever, good-willed and Noble. One shall stick to > them as the moon remains in it's regular orbit. > Dhammapada 208 > > Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, > with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: > Remain pervading them & all others with a friendly awareness imbued > with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, & immeasurable! > Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very > Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. > Majjhima Nikaya 21 > > Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any > irritation can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu, when it arises in him. > What are the five? > 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. > 2: Understanding can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. > 3: On-looking equanimity can be maintained towards an irritating person or > state.. 4: The forgetting and ignoring of an irritating person or state can be > practiced.. 5: Ownership of Kamma in an irritating person can be reflected > upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his > actions, is born of his actions & only he is responsible for his actions be > they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be > instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by > which irritation can be entirely removed in a friend just when it arises... > Anguttara Nikaya V 161 > > Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike > do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & impure, > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any of those... > Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind like water, > then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. Rahula with > water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any of that! > Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, then contacts > of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! Rahula, > fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and > blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind > like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight > and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, space does > not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished like open > space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & frustration will > neither dominate nor obsess your mind. > Majjhima Nikaya 62 <...> 47746 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:44am Subject: too many secrets ksheri3 Group, I know I have something in my stack of buddhist material but I was wondering if there is somewhere I can go to find a listing of buddhist traditions: theravadan: such and such a school such and such a school Mayhayana: such and such a school such and such a school Vajranaya such and such a school etc. I'll look in my stacks for something similar to what I request that I can give a better understanding of what I'm looking for, if I'm not understandable here/now. toodles, colette 47747 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:30pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 249 - Attachment/lobha (b) sarahprocter... [repost - draft sent out in error yesterday:/] ........ Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment(lobha) contd] The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: * "… greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like “monkey lime”. Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean." * The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives a similar definition(1). Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. Monkey lime was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, §7, The monkey) that a hunter sets a trap of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from “folly and greed” do not get trapped. We read: * "… But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and handles it with one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I’ll free my paw, he seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws he seizes them with one foot, and that too sticks fast. To free both paws and the one foot, he lays hold of them with the other foot, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws and both feet he lays hold of them with his muzzle: but that too sticks fast. So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, thus fallen on misfortune…" * In this way the hunter can catch him and roast him over the fire. The Buddha explained to the monks that the monk who is not mindful gets trapped by the “five sensual elements”: visible object, sound, scent, savour and tangible object. When one is taken in by these objects, “Måra gets access”(2). Clinging is dangerous, it leads to one’s own destruction. Are we at this moment taken in by one of the “five sensual elements”? Then we are in fact “trapped”. At the moment of lobha we enjoy the object of clinging and we do not see that lobha makes us enslaved, we do not see the danger of lobha. Therefore it is said that the proximate cause of lobha is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Growing into a river of craving, lobha takes us to the “states of loss”. Lobha can motivate unwholesome deeds which are capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. So long as lobha has not been eradicated we are subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §389. 2) Måra is that which is evil, akusala, and in a wider sense: everything which is bound up with dukkha. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47748 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: too many secrets christine_fo... Hello Collette, You may find a beginning place to seek some of the information you are looking for in these links: http://buddhism.about.com/cs/history/a/Schools.htm http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha125.htm metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Group, > > I know I have something in my stack of buddhist material but I was > wondering if there is somewhere I can go to find a listing of > buddhist traditions: 47749 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: Sutta name egberdina Hi Andrew, Thank you for your post. Clearly, you are keenly aware of the difficulties surrounding the translation issue. I agree with all the points you make, and your closing point "language translation is a difficulty we can't escape but we should always be aware of it." is very sond advice. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman == > I don't have time to become a Pali translator, so I have to rely on > the scholarship of others. I think I made the point once before (and > I think it was to you, actually) that, to be able to judge the merit > of others' scholarship, one really needs to be a scholar oneself. So > there's the rub - how to know which is the better scholarship when > one has little knowledge in the field of expertise. Just as well > that knowledge and wisdom are not one and the same thing!! > > I think it is a good idea to have access to the original Pali and > various translations of it. A good reminder that the translation > issue is a factor to be considered. Of course, here at DSG, some > people espouse using Pali terms instead of English translations but > this annoys others who see it as arrogant etc. > > Re your suggestion that words in a sutta should be translated to fit > that sutta without regard to how the word is used in other suttas is > problematic. The translator must surely then explain why the same > word is being translated differently in different parts of the > suttanta. If there is a valid explanation, bring it on ... > > Otherwise we end up with a Kant-style dog's breakfast [the > philosopher Kant was a prolific writer who changed the > meanings/definitions of terms he used throughout his career, such > that one really needs to date the Kant piece one is reading to know > precisely what he is on about - it could mean something very > different if it came from a different part of his career.] > > Also, I'm sure you are familiar with Biblical translation controversy > which spans several languages. At least we are only concerned with > Pali here! > > In summary, language translation is a difficulty we can't escape but > we should always be aware of it. Thanks for raising it. > > Best wishes > Andrew T 47750 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi Agrios, > There is great work by Nobel laureate Gerald Edelman called NGS theory, if you are interested. > Thanks so much for this. I hadn't heard of Edelman or NGS before. And now you know what I did for the rest of the day, I gorged myself on NGS. Fascinating!!! People say they like Abhidhamma because it helps to see anatta, and I accept that. I cannot read anything on a current understanding of how the brain works without being overwhelmed by anatta. The following link may be interesting for some, it is quite long, and goes into meditation as well. Sorry if it has been posted before. http://www.ellerman.org/BuddhismandtheBrain.htm Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47751 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Ken > OK, I won't talk about formal meditation any more - at least not to > you: only to anyone who wants to. Actually, I think you might have > asked me once before to drop the topic and I forgot - sorry about > that. :-) Ph: Actually, I was the one who brought it up, so thanks for your understanding. > > It worries me that you still might not have caught on. There is a > difference between formal meditation and the meditation described in > the texts. Or am I missing something? Sorry, don't answer that! My lips are sealed... :) >The > subject is closed. :-) Hey, your smiley face has a nose. Another example of right understanding at work, arising due to conditions. If we *try* to have a highly-developed smiley face, it won't happen. Panna has to work it's way... Metta, Phil 47752 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Htoo: "Everything is nowness at now." Hi Htoo, Yes, whatever is now is all there is, but we don't _know_ that unless there is perception without attachment to views (ditthi). Sati conditions the knowing (vinnana) of what arises now without concept. Larry 47753 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and Htoo- What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? Karuna, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "Everything is nowness at now." > > Hi Htoo, > > Yes, whatever is now is all there is, but we don't _know_ that unless > there is perception without attachment to views (ditthi). Sati > conditions the knowing (vinnana) of what arises now without concept. > > Larry 47754 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Larry and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/16/05 8:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Larry and Htoo- What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? ------------------------------------------ Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. ------------------------------------------ Karuna, Tep ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47755 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Larry - > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > Nina. What conditions understanding that comes along with the right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 14-07-2005 01:56 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > (snipped) > L: If so, then mindfulness of breath rupas is an intentional > > body consciousness generated by mindfulness. > Assuming that is correct, what is the difference between a desirous intention and a mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? > ------- > N: desirous intention: someone may think that he has to do something in order to have sati. Going here, going there, doing this, doing that, we can find out that this is mostly motivated by lobha. No wonder, we are in the cycle because of ignorance and craving. > A person may be so taken in by lobha, that he does not like to hear about his deepest motives. Moreover, lobha can be very subtle. > You say: mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > Nina. 47756 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati lbidd2 Tep: "What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept?" Hi Tep, A good book will do it. Larry 47757 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Larry and Htoo) - The question was: What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? And your answer is: Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. Thank you very much, Howard, for the reply. Let me say that I have been motivated by Nina's message # 47655. Nina: > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and > there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. Tep: According to Breathing Treatise para 174, mindfulness is well established on the same basis that makes cognizance(citta) steadied and vice versa. This is called 'made the ground', which is defined as the development(bhavana) "in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties" (indriya). " 'Made the ground'(vatthukata): his mindfulness is well established (founded) on whatever basis his cognizance(citta) is well steadied on. His cognizance is well steadied on whatever ground his mindfulness is well established (founded) on. Hence 'made the ground' was said." [Breathing Treatise, para 174] Tep: Therefore, it is clear to me that all the conditions that steady the mind, making it free from hindrances, non-distracted and calm, also help in developing mindfulness. Since well-balanced ('single function') indriyas (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) steady the citta, they help develop mindfulness. Thus, sati is not developed only by panna. This is strictly my interpretation of the Breathing Treatise. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Larry and Htoo) - > > In a message dated 7/16/05 8:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi Larry and Htoo- > > What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now > without concept? > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, > perserverence, and calm. > With metta, > Howard > 47758 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Sharing Joy antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Rob K, Howard, Christine and all, Sister Ayya Khema wrote: "Joy with others is also good kamma-making. I was in a little village once where there was a special bell attached to the temple. Whenever anyone in that village had some good fortune, they would go and ring that bell. If the harvest was brought in, or the daughter got married, if someone came back from the hospital, or a good business deal had been arranged, if the roof had been reshingled, anything at all that gave them joy. When the bell was rung everybody would come out, look in the direction of the person who was ringing the bell and say, 'Well done. Well done.' The one who was ringing the bell was making good kamma by making it possible for the others to share his joy. The others were making good kamma by sharing another's joy." http://www.serve.com/cmtan/buddhism/Treasure/sharingjoy.html Taken from "Being Nobody Going Nowhere" by Sister Ayya Khema. This must have been a village where the rare quality of mudita was abundant. And there was honesty and trust that the bell-ringing wasn't a false alarm! ;) Here in Australia my Dad remembers the church bells ringing when World War II ended. He was six years old and they sent him home from school May there be world peace in heart and mind with either noble silence or words devoted to truth, promoting friendships, going to the heart and worth treasuring. May there be compassionate bodily actions like generosity, honesty, and clicking the send button to send emails to kalyana mittas ;) May everyone here and your loved ones be happy and safe. May you have tranquil minds. With metta / Antony. 47759 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:15pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? rjkjp1 Dear Herman, Evan and Htoo, I don't know anything about cochlear implants and how effective they are but can add something about passada. The physical base for hearing or seeing depends on teh ear or eye. In the case of teh eye that we can look at it it is a roundish jelly like object with a dark center. This is is not the rupa that is the actual sense base. However, the sense base depends on this to arise. The sense base is spread over the iris, but is invisble and undetectable by science- it arises due to kamma. As I said, though, without the gross eye as a supporting condition this subtle rupa cannot arise. Scientists may be able to manufacture a gross eye that could be support for the kamma conditioned rupa to arise- and then some blind people would be able to see. But if there are no conditions for kamma to produce the subtle eyesense then they would stay blind. The same with ear sense. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I think we agreed that without ear, or cochlear implant for a deaf > person, there is no hearing. You close of this post by saying that ear > and cochlear implant are concept. The conclusion beckons that concepts > give rise to paramattha dhammas. I know you don't believe that. > > I do not mean to tie you up in knots. Is it possible that there are > problems with the theory ? > > The purpose of a theory is to explain the workings of the observed, > causality if you like. Theory has its place, because causality is not > observable. The existence of cochlear implants is testimony to the > fact that the causality that underlies the transducing of waves in a > medium like or water into electrical pulses has been understood > sufficiently well to be able to give at least a poor reproduction of > hearing to those who lack it. > > It is not improbable that someone, somewhere is going to see the light > on hearing the dhamma with the help of a cochlear implant, is it? > > I do not need to say anymore on this, but if you want to continue, I > will be more than happy to do so. > > Thanks for all your time and effort > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Herman, > > Now I see that you did not tie me up. I want to continue the current > discussion. But I do not have much time nowadays. Pannatti finally > points out what paramattha dhamma are. > > I would not say 'cochlea implant, ear' etc are not real. But I would > say they are not paramattha dhamma. > > There are my posts on dream and arahats. I wrote about the current in > the nerves and perception in relation to dream. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47760 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sharing Joy upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - In a message dated 7/16/05 11:04:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@... writes: May there be world peace in heart and mind with either noble silence or words devoted to truth, promoting friendships, going to the heart and worth treasuring. May there be compassionate bodily actions like generosity, honesty, and clicking the send button to send emails to kalyana mittas ;) May everyone here and your loved ones be happy and safe. May you have tranquil minds. ======================== Thank you, Antony! And may you be happy and well. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47761 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Jon, > > Egbert wrote: > > >Firstly something about essence. The problem is as follows. How things > >appear, and how they are, can be quite a few worlds apart, as you well > >know. > > > >IMHO, human perceptual processes rely on the computation of > >differences. So what is presented to consciousness as positive objects > >with seemingly inherent characteristics, are, in fact, the > >representations of the ever-changing difference between states of > >non-conscious sensing. Now, if mental objects exist only as the > >difference between states that no longer apply, how knowable is their > >self-nature (essence)? > > > >Seeing as there is no knowable essence (self-nature) in anything, > >because things come into being only as differences, its potential > >relation to anatta is a moot point :-) > > > > The above is an interesting line of thinking, but is it not possible > that the moments of 'computation of differences' lie some distance up > the cognitive tree (to use your own metaphor), and that preceding those > moments there are moments of bare experience of sense-objects? Your > comments seem to assume this cannot be so, but you do not give any basis > for that assumption. > Yes, it is entirely possible that there are experiences of sense-objects more towards the base of the cognitive tree, so to speak. This raises the possibility of a question. When can it be said that an experience is "bare experience" rather than "barer experience"? Kind Regards Herman 47762 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 445 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) The first 8 individuals are ariya puggalas or pure saints. 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many kilesa) This individual is born with a patisandhi citta that has three roots of 1. alobha or non-attachment, 2. adosa or non-aversion, and 3. amoha or non-ignorance or panna. When there is no outside object to attend there arise bhavanga citta or life continung consciousness in them and when they die the citta that arises as the last moment consciousness or cuti citta is also tihetuka citta. Puthujana = puthu + janaanam, puthu means 'many' and janaanam means 'cause to arise'. Here it means many kilesa. Because in ariyas there are just sparse kilesas and there is no kilesa in arahats. In comparison with these 8 ariyas, that have been explained in the previous posts puthujana puggala have many many kilesas or defilements. This is true. Because in each day there are just sparse kusala and most cittas are akusala javana cittas. When one see or hear or smell or taste or touch mostly he or she will like or dislike the object instead of seeing the realities as realities. This likeness and dislikeness create many many kilesas or defilements. So they are called puthujana puggalas or 'individual where kilesas arise'. But unlike other puthujana puggala this individual of tihetuka has the potential that help to develop jhaana, magga, and phala nana. They are endowed with these potential when they were born. But this is not certainty unless they follow the right path and follow the true teachings of The Buddha, who discovered all Dhamma that ever exist. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47763 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - You wrote : >This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. Because this is a heated area. Not only that it is a hot "area", it also has open questions. So the debate probably may never end. Kind regards, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, This is because debators are all non-ariyas and are all non- jhanalaabhii. As long as they have not attained jhaana and magga there will still be debates. Even if there is a Buddha they will still be debating if they have not attained jhaana and magga. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47764 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 0:45am Subject: The Divine Eye ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Divine Eye of an Awakened One (DibbaCakkhu): At Savatthi, the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, imagine there were two houses and a man with good eyes was standing there between them, and he saw people going in and coming out and passing back and forth between them. Exactly so, do I with the purified divine eye surpassing the human, see beings passing away and reappearing, high or low, fine or ugly, fortunate and unfortunate! Therefore do I understand how beings pass on according to their actions thus: These worthy beings, who were well-behaved in body, speech, and mind, not revilers of Noble Ones, right in their views, acting according to these right views, at the breakup of the body, after death, have reappeared in a blissful and pleasurable destination, even in one of the heavenly worlds... Or they have reappeared here again among good human beings... But these worthy beings, who were ill-behaved in body, speech, and mind, revilers of Noble Ones, wrong in their views, acting according to these wrong views, at the breakup of the body, right after death, have reemerged in the realm of ghosts or among animals or in a state of deprivation, or lost in a painful destination, even in the many hells... The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. III 178-9 MN 130 Devaduta Sutta: The Divine Messengers... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47765 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: too many secrets htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Collette, > > You may find a beginning place to seek some of the information you are > looking for in these links: > > http://buddhism.about.com/cs/history/a/Schools.htm > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha125.htm > > metta, > Chris -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, Thanks for your links. You always have a good collections of useful links. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ''Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or the Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law. About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that everything is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount of works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were introduced. We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd Century B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence anywhere in the world. Therefore, in 1950 the World Fellowship of Buddhists inaugurated in Colombo unanimously decided that the term Hinayana should be dropped when referring to Buddhism existing today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, etc. This is the brief history of Theravada, Mahayana and Hinayana.'' 47766 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "Everything is nowness at now." > > Hi Htoo, > > Yes, whatever is now is all there is, but we don't _know_ that unless > there is perception without attachment to views (ditthi). Sati > conditions the knowing (vinnana) of what arises now without concept. > > Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, Nowness is progressing all the time like the cursor while we are typing. The cursor is right at the present. But people are deluded that 'there are they and they are thinking and typing. When they think in that way there will be past, present and future and many other ideas out of time relationship. Again this is because of constructions and this construction has a background of wrong view. As long as there is ditthi or wrong view one will never see 'REALITIES'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47767 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati htootintnaing Hi Larry and Htoo- What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? Karuna, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, There are as a summary 24 conditions that are serving the relations among dhammas. Sarah, Nina, and Larry will all be able to tell you what conditions 'your sati' that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in poor conditions. 47768 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati htootintnaing Hi, Tep (and Larry and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/16/05 8:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@y... writes: Hi Larry and Htoo- > What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now > without concept? ------------------------------------------ Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. ------------------------------------------ Htoo: Dear Howard, I like your answer. 'Among other things' is what I like most. But I think this does not necessarily means 'intention' 'perserverence' 'calm' are major things and others are minor things. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47769 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 172 and Tiika. Envy. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 172. Envy. Intro: Envy, issaa, does not arise with each akusala citta rooted in aversion, dosa, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-muulacitta. It is one of the inconstants (aniyata) that can accompany dosa-muulacitta. Thus, it is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Envy is conditioned by the dosa, aversion, it accompanies; it is dissatisfied with others¹ prosperity. As we read about dosa: The cetasika dosa also causes the accompanying dhammas to be corrupted or to have aversion. This is expressed by the term: by means of it (tena). All the accompanying dhammas and thus also envy are affected by dosa. ***** Text Vis.: (xlvi) Envying is 'envy'. It has the characteristic of being jealous of other's success. ------- N: The Tiika states that not enduring the prosperity of others is the cause of jealousy. -------- Text Vis.: Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. ----- N: The Tiika emphasizes that there is just in that case, namely, in the case of the prosperity of others, dissatisfaction. It explains as to the words Œits function is dissatisfaction¹, that this is not merely the absence of satisfaction, but that its function is being opposed to satisfaction. ------ Text Vis.: It is manifested as averseness from that. ------ N: Averseness is the translation from the Pali vimukhabhaava, the nature of turning away. It dislikes the object, the prosperity of others. Thus, we see that it can only arise with citta rooted in aversion. ---------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is another's success. It should be regarded as a fetter. ------- The fetters or sa.myojanas fetter us to the cycle of birth and death. Envy is classified among these fetters. We read in the Dhammasanga.ni (§ 1121) : The Expositor (II, p. 479) explains that envy has the characteristic of: < not enduring, or of grumbling at the prosperity of others, saying concerning others¹ gains, etc. ŒWhat is the use to these people of all this?¹ > It explains that in the case of monks, the objects of envy are the requisites that are received, or the honour and respect given to them. But envy also pertains to householders who receive a splendid vehicle or gem. We read that someone else thinks,< ŒWhen will he decline from this prosperity and walk about a pauper?¹ and if for a certain reason the other does decline from that prosperity he is pleased.> The object of jealousy can also be someone else¹s knowledge. We read: < A certain recluse also being envious at seeing the acquirement of gain, etc., arising from general knowledge, scriptural scholarship, etc., thinks, ŒWhen will this man decline in these acquirements?¹ etc., and when he sees him, for some reason, decline, then he is glad.> Envy is conditioned by the cetasikas that accompany the dosa-muulacitta it arises together with. Thus, it is also conditioned by ignorance, moha. Moha darkens the true nature of dhammas. When there is ignorance of kamma and vipaaka one fails to see that the pleasant Œworldly conditions¹ of gain, praise, honour and bodily wellbeing are the results of kusala kamma, there is an opportunity for jealousy. One does not see that it is pointless to have aversion and be jealous on account of what are merely conditioned dhammas. Muditaa, sympathetic joy, is the opposite of envy. When one rejoices at someone else¹s prosperity there is no opportunity for jealousy. Seeing the benefit of sympathetic joy which is a way of kusala will be a condition for its arising. The sotaapanna has eradicated jealousy, because through insight he realizes that all experiences are only conditioned dhammas that do not last and are non-self. He has direct understanding of kamma and its result and he realizes that when someone receives pleasant sense objects it is the result of kamma. ****** Nina. 47770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, This is very good to reflect on. I like to highlight the two methods: analytical and synthetical or relational. Not so much concept versus reality, since there were so many debates, if you know what I mean. op 16-07-2005 17:07 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Hardness, warmth, > sights, sounds, tastes, mind-moments, pleasant feelings, cravings, > concentration, mindfulness, attention, distractedness etc, AS SEPARATE > REALITIES, do not > exist. Conventionally they exist as separate entities, but not actually. They > are accorded separate existence only on the basis of mental constructions > (sankharic operations). In reality, they are interrelated facets of an > inseparable experiential stream, facets either dependently co-occuring, or > consecutively > occurring without gap, or arising subsequently in conditioned dependence, but > not existing as separate entities at all. ------- N: I understand what you mean. It is true, there are no separate dhammas, dhammas in isolation. ------ H: ... The analysis of wholes into parts ... But there lies a danger in that approach: the danger in > according separate reality to "atomic" constitents that result from such > analysis. > Techniques to counter such error are to be found in the synthetic, relational > approach of the Patthana, and more essentially in my opinion, in the use of > paticcasamupada as a contemplative scheme. > To sum up, I see emptiness (lack of separate existence or lack of > ultimate reality) as the cognitive partner to emotional relinquishment, and I > believe > that it is insight into the former along with cultivation of the latter that > leads to awakening. ------- N: You may find Abhidhamma Studies by ven. Nyanaponika, II the Twofold Method interesting. He explains that the two methods are necessary. It is rejected by the Expositor that any dhamma arises singly. (p. 22 of Abh Studies). And p. 23: he calls internal relations those within a citta (the cetasikas which condiiton the citta) and external relation the connections between several of such units. The Patthana is mainly concerned with these so called external relations. We read in Abh Studies: He applies this to the Satipatthana sutta, differentiating: contemplation of internal phenomena, those in others and the combination, Then he shows the meaning of: dhammas as arising, as passing away and the combination of both. Now about the stages of insight: <1 Analysis of the corporeal (ruupa) | | analysis 2:Analysis of the mental (naama) | 3 Contemplation of both (naama-ruupa) | | Synthesis 4 both viewed as conditioned (paticcasamuppaado) | 5 Application of the three characteristics to mind-and-body-cum-conditions= combination of analysis and synthesis.> end quote. **** My remarks: this fits with the stages of insight. We have to learn first nama as nama and rupa as rupa, and there can be awareness of only one characteristic at a time. It is impossible to be aware of seeing and visible object at the same time. The second stage is knowing dhammas as conditioned. This is not intellectual understanding of conditions, but by direct understanding, by insight. We cannot imagine yet how this can be realized without thinking, but paññaa is able to achieve this. Since I am only a beginner, I pay attention to understanding one nama or rupa as it appears. This is the analytical method, but without this, there will be a great deal of confusion about the Patthana and the D.O. We have to understand which dhamma exactly conditions which dhamma, and by what type of relation: simultaneous or not simultaneous. When we study all this we have to keep in mind that pariyatti is not patipatti, although correct pariyatti is a foundation for patipatti. Nina. 47771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. nilovg Hi James, op 16-07-2005 13:52 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: N:< All that is real is included in these eighteen elements.> I'm not sure what you mean here. Questions about what is > "real" as opposed to "unreal" don't seem that important to the > Buddha's teaching, as far as I can tell. The Buddha didn't raise > questions of what was real as opposed to what was not real- he > actually discouraged such speculative thought. He taught that > disciples must know the elements in order to be wise and to foser > detachment. In my opinion, emphasizing what is 'real' as opposed to > 'not real' will encourage attachment to what one deems as 'real'. The > elements are the elements; they are not superior, inferior or equal to > anything else. ------- N: I understand what you mean. I wanted to emphasize: dhamma or dhaatu is reality, it is the truth, it can be directly experienced. It bears its own characteristic. Such as visible object or seeing, they each have their own characteristics that can be directly experienced. Seeing is different from hearing which has another characteristic. ------ > Nina: In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the > relevant sense-cognitions... > James: You seem to be making a logical connection here that I just > don't read in this sutta. This is the connection you make, as I see > it: Confusing nama and rupa ---> Taking dhammas together as a whole > ---> Taking dhammas as a concept ---> Not being able to attain > enlightenment. ------- N: I was just emphasizing that people in the Buddha's time could directly realize that seeing arises in dependence on visible object and eyesense. That all his teachings pertain to daily life and that they can be verified now. They are all different elements and as I see it, these should not be confused. Now as to Howard's post, I shall go into his post about two methods of teaching, the analytical and the relational method of teaching. ------ > Nina: When you are back I would like to read more suttas with you. > Starting another thread? > James:.. I will be in a temporary flat > for a while and my Nikaya collection is packed away, except DN which I > am currently reading. Things may be very hectic for me at my new > school at the beginning. We will play it by ear. But please, do > present any suttas in the meantime that you would like to discuss. ----- N: Staying in Cairo? But I have my hands full. In the Pali list the whole of the Gradual Sayings is studied in a five year project. We are right at the beginning. Struggling over the translation of the Pali word nimitta. Nina. 47772 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman, Evan and Htoo, > > I don't know anything about cochlear implants and how effective they > are but can add something about passada. > The physical base for hearing or seeing depends on teh ear or eye. > In the case of teh eye that we can look at it it is a roundish jelly > like object with a dark center. This is is not the rupa that is the > actual sense base. However, the sense base depends on this to arise. > The sense base is spread over the iris, but is invisble and > undetectable by science- it arises due to kamma. As I said, though, > without the gross eye as a supporting condition this subtle rupa > cannot arise. > > Scientists may be able to manufacture a gross eye that could be > support for the kamma conditioned rupa to arise- and then some blind > people would be able to see. But if there are no conditions for > kamma to produce the subtle eyesense then they would stay blind. > > The same with ear sense. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, I agree. That is why I said 5 pasaada ruupa cannot be sensed by 5 physical organs of eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. I know there were many discussion on hadaya ruupa. But if you are willing to discuss again it will be helpful. Where does hadaya ruupa exist in our physical body? With respect, Htoo Naing 47774 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 446 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 12 puggalas or 12 individuals there are 8 ariya puggalas and 4 puthujana puggalas. Ariya puggalas have been explained in the previous posts. There are 4 puthujana puggala or individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) 4. duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destination, rootless individual where many likesa arise) 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala This individual has been explained in the previous post. There are all 89 cittas that can arise in these tihetuka puthujana puggala. So all 89 cittas can arise in tihetuka puggala. But this is just a general description and this will depend on who is that tihetuka puggala. If that is a human being then the possible cittas that can arise in them are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas ( 7 akusala origin and 8 kusala origin) c) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (panca and mano dvara-avajjana cittas) d) 8 mahakusala cittas e) 8 mahavipaka cittas f) 5 ruupakusala cittas g) 4 aruupakusala cittas ---- 54 cittas Unlike other puthujana puggalas, these tihetuka puthujana puggala have the potential to attain jhaana or magga and phala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:17am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 02 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 261 contemplations on body or 261 kaayaanupassanaa there are 12 contemplations on breath and 3 contemplations of implication of breath. These are all anupassanaa or 'seeing things as they arise'. Anu means 'along' 'like' 'according to' behind' 'after' 'under' 'sub-'. And passanaa means 'seeing' 'viewing' 'looking at' 'contemplating' consideration' 'realisation'. Anu_along, anupassana_see along the way as it goes. Anu_like, anupassana_see what things are like. Anu_according to, anupassana_see things according to their appearance. Anu_behind, anupassana_see things behind them as they go. Anu_after, anupassana_see things after them when arise. Anu_under, anupassana_see things under their base what they are like. Anu_sub-, anupassana_see things in their subunit and in detail. There are 15 contempaltions on breath. Or there are 15 kaayaanupassanaa on breath. These 15 are in terms of our communication and actually things are happening on their own. Examples: These scripts that appear just before you reach this part and appear after this part would all appear as on line print and appear as colour and light. Likewise where the anupassii or the practitioner of kaayaanupassana is practising there will be 15 contemplations that he or she will be doing. a) 4 contemplations on internal events of breathing b) 4 contemplations on external events of breathing c) 4 contemplations on internal and external events of breathing d) 1 contemplation on implication of breath as the origination e) 1 contemplation on implication of breath as the dissolution f) 1 contemplation on implication as origination & dissolution -- 15 contemplations on breath With Metta, Htoo Naing 47776 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? nilovg Hi Tep, op 17-07-2005 03:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: N:> When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there > is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. >> Nina. > > What conditions understanding that comes along with the right kind of > mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? ------ N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and vipassana. Howard writes: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. ------- N: But right understanding has to know that we have the true, kusala intention, perserverence, and calm, and not what a person erroneously takes for them. This is a danger that is not to be underestimated. I also speak for myself here, I am inclined to take patience, perseverance and calm when there is kusala for mine. Lobha is tricky, it is hidden. Thus, right understanding has to be emphasized. But this is difficult for an oridinary person, of course. It is easy to oversee pittfalls. Nina. 47777 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:35am Subject: 60 audio talks on suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi christine_fo... Hello all, Here is a link to approximately 60 digital audio talks (windows media player required) by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya. http://www.bodhimonastery.net/mntalks_audio.html with metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 47778 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 buddhistmedi... From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 202 - 205. SariputtaDhamma message # 1214 Dear Tep, I have inserted the Pali words in paragraphs 203, 204 and 205. 203. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction (cittassa ekaggatam avikkhepam pajaananto) through long in-breaths and out-breaths, (i) he combines the faculties (indriyaani samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati); (ii) he combines the powers (balaani samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati); (iii) he combines the enlightenment factors (bojjhange samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati). (iv) he combines the path (maggam samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati). (v) he combines [other] ideas (dhamme samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati). 204. He 'combines the faculties': how does he combine the faculties (katham indriyaani samodaaneti)? He combines the faith faculty through its meaning of resolution (adhimokkhathena saddhindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the energy faculty through its meaning of exertion (paggahathena viriyindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the mindfulness faculty through its meaning of establishment (upatthanathena satindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the concentration faculty through its meaning of non-distraction (avikkhepathena samadhindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the understanding faculty through its meaning of seeing (dassanathena pannindriyam samodaaneti). This person combines these faculties on this object (ayam puggalo imaani indriyaani imasamim aarammane samodaaneti). Hence, he 'combines the faculties' is said (tena vuccati "indriyaani samodaanetii" ti). 205. He 'understands their domain'("gocaranca pajaanaatii" ti,: his supporting object is his domain (yam tassa aarammanam, tam tassa gocaram); his domain is his supporting object (yam tassa gocaram, tam tassa aarammanam). He understands, thus he is a person; the act-of-understanding is understanding (pajaanaatii ti puggalo pajaananaa pannaa). 'Sameness': (sama): the appearance of the supporting-object is sameness (aarammanassa upatthaanam samam), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness (cittassa avikkhepo samam), [the steadiness of cognizance is sameness (cittassa aditthaanam samam),] the cleansing of cognizance is sameness (cittassa vodaanam samam). [Han: "the steadiness of cognizance is sameness" is not in your text. I have put it in.] 'Meaning': (attha) meaning as blameless (anavijja), meaning as without defilement (niklesa), meaning as cleansing (vodaana), ultimate meaning (parama). [Han: "kla" in niklesa is a conjunct consonant like "kkha" in bhikkhu. It is a very rare conjunct consonant and I cannot find the word niklesa in the dictionaries.] 'Penetrates' (patvijjhati): he penetrates the appearance of the supporting object (aarammanassa upatthana pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of non-distraction of cognizance (cittassa avikkhepa pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance (cittassa aditthaana pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance (cittassa vodaana pativijjhati). Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said (tena vuccati "samatthanca pativijjhatii" ti). With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:45 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, > 200 - 201. Message # 1173. > > Dear Tep, > > The following Pali words may be inserted if they do not clash with the > Pali words or translation that you have in your books. I have worked on > paragraph 200 only because it will be the same for sannaa and > vitakka. > 47779 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > ---> Dear Robert K, > > I agree. That is why I said 5 pasaada ruupa cannot be sensed by 5 > physical organs of eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. > > I know there were many discussion on hadaya ruupa. But if you are > willing to discuss again it will be helpful. > > Where does hadaya ruupa exist in our physical body? > > With respect, > _________ dear Htoo, Two old posts on this topic. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5395 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5410 heart base arises dependent on the blood in the heart. If the blood was been circulated outside the body then heart base could arise there, or even in artifical blood. Robertk 47780 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan Just talking in general terms for a moment, if the second of 2 (hypothetical) sets of teachings purported to lead to the same goal as the first (where the goal of the first is seen as being a particularly worthy one), then I could see merit in a study of the second. But if that was not the case, then I would not see a study of the second, or an attempt to demonstrate the common aspects between the two, as being of any value in terms of gaining a better understanding of the first. Jon Dan D. wrote: >Dear Jon, >You write: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the >similarities between 2 different teachings." > >Don't you think that there is great benefit to describing things in a >variety of ways? > >And continue: "It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order >to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each >for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-)). But perhaps you >see some particular benefit?" > >Each is a description of realities and their conditional relations. >Descriptions and the things described are strikingly different, and >separating the two is central to the Dhamma. Reflecting on how the >same realities can be described by very different words helps clarify >the distinction between concept and reality. > > >Metta, > >Dan > > 47781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ jonoabb Hi, Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon (quoting a commentary passage from CMA): > >Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit >which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before >reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator >alike, *all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana >consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the >mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the >mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with >an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. > >Tep: Thank you for quoting from this commentary source that proposes >a hypothesis on "vipassana jhana", the term for which there is no >definition in the suttas. Do you have any real proof to show me that >there have been "bare insight" people who achieved vipassana jhana? > > I do not see this passage as proposing anything of the nature of 'vipassana jhana'. As regards real proof of bare insight, I'm not sure what you mean by 'real proof'. There are certainly suttas that describe the attainment of enlightenment by individuals without there being any suggestion that the individual had previously attained jhana. >Jon: So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature >of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been >the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). > >Tep: This sounds like your Q.E.D. of the proof that says "samatha >bhavana only achieves the mundane jhana which is inferior to the >vipassana jhana". Before disproving your "proof", which is based on >just one commentary without any real story yet to back the claim (i.e. >like a hypothesis without a valid test result), let me ask you some >questions as follows. > >Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? >Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? >In your opinion is Anapanasati bhavana a samatha bhavana? >Could you please define samatha bhavana? > > Let me try answering your questions. Tep's Q: Could you please define samatha bhavana? Jon's A: As I understand it, 'samatha' means 'tranquility' and 'bhavana' means 'development'. Hence, the development of tranquility (that being the characteristic of kusala) that is accompanied by panna. At such moments the consciousness is tranquil because of the presence of the kusala factor of passaddhi (calm, serenity, tranquility). In order for such kusala accompanied by panna to arise, the object of consciousness must be appropriate and that object must be contemplated in the correct way. These objects are specified in the suttas and elsewhere (as 38 or 40). They include anapanasati (in- and out-breathing). Tep's Q: In your opinion is Anapanasati bhavana a samatha bhavana? Jon's A: As just stated, anapanasati is included among the 38 or 40 kammathana ('working-ground') more commonly referred to as the subjects of contemplation. Anapanasati is also mentioned in the context of the development of insight, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, but the object of consciousness is different depending on whether the context is samatha or vipassana. Tep's Q: Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? Jon's A: I'm not sure if the actual term 'mundane jhana' appears in the suttas, but any jhana occurring other than at the moment of enlightenment is 'mundane' and not 'supramundane'. Understood this way, there are many, many references in the suttas to mundane jhana. I hope this clarifies. >Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. > > And I hope it can continue further. Jon 47782 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:54am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? /Debating jhaana & magga buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote, > This is because debators are all non-ariyas and are all non- > jhanalaabhii. As long as they have not attained jhaana and magga > there will still be debates. Even if there is a Buddha they will still > be debating if they have not attained jhaana and magga. > You have made a good and valid point! Thank you much. With respect, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > You wrote : > > >This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and > you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. > Because this is a heated area. > > > Not only that it is a hot "area", it also has open questions. So the > debate probably may never end. > > Kind regards, > > Tep > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47783 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. jonoabb Hi Howard Focussing on the 'underlying content' only ;-)) ... upasaka@... wrote: >[Jon] To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of >akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither >can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > Ahh, I see. So you believe that the Buddha expected perfection in >worldlings. > I'm not sure where you see this in my comment. The question is whether, when speaking about matters such as the bodily postures, the Buddha was (a) describing/prescribing an activity to be followed that must necessarily involve aksuala for the worldling, or (b) describing kusala consciousness only, by use of conventional language. In suggesting the latter, I do not see myself as implying any perfection in worldlings. To me, the implication is that any development for the worldling will be very occasional and very gradual. >I thought that all he required in order to go ahead with teaching was >that there be some folks with but little dust in their eyes. But, Jon, what I see >here is very revealing to me, and cuts right to the heart of the matter. It >is clear to me that you and some others here believe that unless there is >already perfection, there is no point in doing anything, for if there is any >akusala, any sense of self, any grasping at all, any action is vitiated. That is >most certainly a doctrine of hopelessness, for we ALL begin FILLED with akusala. > > Yes, we all begin filled with akusala, and that's what makes the arising of kusala a difficult thing ;-)) > Frankly, it amazes me how anyone could have read many, many suttas and >come away with the idea that the Buddha didn't teach the performing of >conventional actions. I find it utterly amazing! I find that to be a perverse view, and I strain to imagine what attractiveness one might find in it. > > I don't understand your reference to attractiveness here. Why is a teaching that involves conventional actions 'attractive', and one that does not, 'unattractive'? >If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being >really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a >conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Well. I don't so regard it. By paying attention, I mean the ordinary >conventional paying attention to all states, without selection or preference. > > I don't see how it's possilbe to 'pay attention to all states, without selection or preference' when there are so many states occurring in such rapid succession (assuming 'states' to include all the sense-door experiences also). Then there are rupas too; are these being exclude and, if so, is that not a selectin or preference? >Sometimes there is wholesomeness and sometimes not, not directly controllable. We >need to pay attention as best we can and see what is what as best we can. If >we don't bother to do this because there is no guarantee at all of doing it >perfectly, then we have ever right to have no expectation whatsoever of ever >awakening. > > Any 'paying attention' (done as a 'practice') that is not wholesomeness is wrong practice. In my view it would be more harmful than not paying attention at all. >Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, >that is not found in the texts) >------------------------------------- >Howard: > Ahh, there ya go - I must learn to curtail that unapproved terminology! > > The terminology is not the point, it was the underlying sentiment or thought that I was referring to. There is no term in the texts that corresponds to 'cultivational activity'. There are of course the 37 'bodhi-pakkhiya-dhammas' but there is a good reasons why these are referred to as 'dhammas' and not as 'activities' or some other similar term. Jon 47784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for these comments and the sutta quote. I agree that virtue supports the development of insight, and that perfection of virtue is one of the goals. But I do not read the texts as saying that insight can only be developed once virtue has been perfected (not that I'm suggesting that you are saying this), and so as I see it lack of virtue in a person is not an obstacle to that person beginning the development of insight. What do you think? Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: I have followed your dialog with Howard with appropriate >attention. That is, I pay attention only to the points of discussion that are >conducive to wisdom and gladness, and I simply ignore anything else >that is not beneficial to my learning for clearer understanding. This >strategy of listening is one aspect of 'yoniso-manasikara'. The choice >to ignore something(akusala) and to pay attention to something else >(kusala) is a 'cetana'. Cetana is action. Without cetana to choose the >right dhamma, how can there be appropriate attention? Without yoniso- >manasikara how can be arising of kusala dhammas? > >Indeed intention (cetana) may be kusala or akusala. But when guided >by yoniso-manisikara, we don't end up in akusala vipaka. > >Only when we are perfect in sila, then other kusala mental states like >samadhi and panna would follow with no intention - i.e. an "act of will" is >not needed - as stated in the following sutta. > >"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no >need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in >the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person >endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue. For a person free from >remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in >the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse. ... ... > >"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I >experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in >body experiences pleasure. ... ... ... > >"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act >of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature >of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees >things as they actually are. ... ... ... > >"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I >realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things >that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of >release. [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] > >Tep : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. > >Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> >Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing >& seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida0 -- > > 47785 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon: I hope you don't mind if I jump straight to the main point of your >post. > >Tep: I don't mind, Jon. But it might be somewhat better to tell me why >you skip the other issues. > Lack of time, I'm afraid, Tep. My apologies for not responding on all your points. I'd like to, but there just isn't the time at the moment. >Jon: The passage you have quoted above needs to be read in the >context of the sutta as a whole and indeed of the whole Tipitaka. > >Tep: You are really ambitious. To study the whole Tipitaka might take >us the whole lifetime. So we end up doing nothing else but reading, >considering, discussing, formulating hypotheses, and disbelieving >each other. > When I said the whole Tipitaka I meant of course as much of the Tipitaka as we know. But yes, the study of the Tipitaka is a life-time job, but then so is the development of insight, and it is for the purpose of the latter that the former is done. >Jon: Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as >one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed >samatha >results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth in >particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. > >Tep: You might have seen those suttas that focus on the first tetrad >only? There are other short suttas I have seen that recommend using >breathing meditation to practice calmness, but they are not about the >full-blown 4-tetrad version in MN 118 or the Breathing Treatise of the >great Arahant Sariputta. Please read Section iii again. If you disbelieve >me, at least you should believe the Arahant's words. > What I'm saying is that suttas MN 118 show how vipassana can be developed in conjunction with anapanasati; they do not say that anapanasati samadhi itself leads to enlightenment. I hope I've made myself clear here. >Jon: So what is the difference between anapanasati as described in >SN 54:13 and anapanasati as referred to in the context of the 38 or 40 >subjects of contemplation for samatha bhavana? > >Tep: One of the authoritative voices who can answer your question (to >the satisfy your heart desire) is Acariya Buddhaghosa. Similarities with >the 40 subjects of samatha meditation are also described in the >Visuddhimagga Chapter VIII. Just only the 1st tetrad alone, you would >have the 4th jhana as the basis for vipassana to reach Arahantship : > >"... in the forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set >about discerning this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in >mindfulness of breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the >basis for comprehension of formations [with insight], he can reach >Arahantship, the highest fruit." [ para 155, page 263. Vism VIII]. > Yes, after exiting jhana the jhana becomes the basis for insight. But the question here is how the meditator is able to make the previously occurring jhana the basis insight. This is only possible if the meditator has already developed insight to a high degree, that is, before attaining jhana. A person who had not been developing insight could not, on attaining jhana, make the jhana the basis for insight. There is nothing about jhana per se that makes it particularly conducive to the arising of insight. >Vism Para 237 says the fourth tetrad deals only with "pure insight" while >the previous three deal with serenity and insight. So, you may want to >consider changing your view above. > I'm not sure which view you refer to here, but I'd be happy to have any mistaken view pointed out. Jon 47786 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 7/17/05 4:56:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Htoo: Dear Howard, I like your answer. 'Among other things' is what I like most. But I think this does not necessarily means 'intention' 'perserverence' 'calm' are major things and others are minor things. --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. The ones I mentioned were just those that first came to mind at the moment. :-) --------------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47787 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > I don't mind continuing the discussion, but it hasn't really > >been a discussion. It has been you asking me question after question >and me trying my best to answer them. The discussion would go better >if you would just lay your cards on the table; in other words, tell me >what you are thinking without asking me any questions. ... > > >Herman is right, I do feel nitpicked at times. But that is >because you tend to ask leading questions rather than being direct >about what you are thinking. > > James, this must be the first time anyone has asked me to state more directly what I think on this subject. I think I hear a collective groan from the rest of the members, who I'm sure must feel that I've stated my views ad nauseum ;-)). They are probably feeling right now just like the classmates of the student who has just told the teacher he has forgotten to set the homework! ;-)) ;-)) Jon 47788 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you for your reply to my question about sati. Htoo: > PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in > poor conditions. Tep : Developing compassion(karuna) is a valuable way to subdue hatred for any person-- poor or rich, young or old, needing help or not needing help. "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should develop compassion for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued." [AN V.161] Tep: But there are also great benefits beyond subduing hatred! "These four -- love, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity -- are also known as the boundless states (appamañña), because, in their perfection and their true nature, they should not be narrowed by any limitation as to the range of beings towards whom they are extended. They should be non-exclusive and impartial, not bound by selective preferences or prejudices. A mind that has attained to that boundlessness of the Brahma-viharas will not harbor any national, racial, religious or class hatred. ["The Four Sublime States Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity" by Nyanaponika Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 6] Tep: And here is how to pervade karuna to all beings : "Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress." [DN 13] With Karuna, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > There are as a summary 24 conditions that are serving the relations > among dhammas. Sarah, Nina, and Larry will all be able to tell you > what conditions 'your sati' that conditions knowing of what arises > now > without concept. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in > poor conditions. 47789 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/17/05 8:49:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: heart base arises dependent on the blood in the heart. If the blood was been circulated outside the body then heart base could arise there, or even in artifical blood. =================== This all sounds very conventional to me, Robert. It sounds like science instead of Dhamma, albeit the science of medieval Europe or ancient India. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47790 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/17/05 9:01:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard Focussing on the 'underlying content' only ;-)) ... upasaka@... wrote: >[Jon] To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of >akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither >can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > Ahh, I see. So you believe that the Buddha expected perfection in >worldlings. > I'm not sure where you see this in my comment. The question is whether, when speaking about matters such as the bodily postures, the Buddha was (a) describing/prescribing an activity to be followed that must necessarily involve aksuala for the worldling, or (b) describing kusala consciousness only, by use of conventional language. ------------------------------------- Howard: My point is that during all conventional activities engaged in by worldlings and lesser ariyans, they being imperfect, there will be akusala moments, and you are using that as a basis for denying that the Buddha ever advocated any conventional activities. But I see that claim as false on the face of it. ------------------------------------- In suggesting the latter, I do not see myself as implying any perfection in worldlings. To me, the implication is that any development for the worldling will be very occasional and very gradual. ------------------------------------- Howard: Without intentionally following the very conventional activities prescribed again and again by the Buddha, there is no basis for any development at all except possibly for dumb luck. --------------------------------------- >I thought that all he required in order to go ahead with teaching was >that there be some folks with but little dust in their eyes. But, Jon, what I see >here is very revealing to me, and cuts right to the heart of the matter. It >is clear to me that you and some others here believe that unless there is >already perfection, there is no point in doing anything, for if there is any >akusala, any sense of self, any grasping at all, any action is vitiated. That is >most certainly a doctrine of hopelessness, for we ALL begin FILLED with akusala. > > Yes, we all begin filled with akusala, and that's what makes the arising of kusala a difficult thing ;-)) ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, akusala certainly makes kusala difficult. And vice-versa, I would suppose. ----------------------------------- > Frankly, it amazes me how anyone could have read many, many suttas and >come away with the idea that the Buddha didn't teach the performing of >conventional actions. I find it utterly amazing! I find that to be a perverse view, and I strain to imagine what attractiveness one might find in it. > > I don't understand your reference to attractiveness here. Why is a teaching that involves conventional actions 'attractive', and one that does not, 'unattractive'? -------------------------------------- Howard: I assume that when someone repeatedly asserts a position I find indefensible and that I see that position as readily contradicted by the teachings of the Buddha over a 45-year period, that person must find something particularly attractive in that position. This is why I make that reference. -------------------------------------- >If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being >really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a >conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Well. I don't so regard it. By paying attention, I mean the ordinary >conventional paying attention to all states, without selection or preference. > > I don't see how it's possilbe to 'pay attention to all states, without selection or preference' when there are so many states occurring in such rapid succession (assuming 'states' to include all the sense-door experiences also). ----------------------------------- Howard: One is not at first successfully attending to each and every facet - far from it. As one makes progress, however, the fineness of attention grows. Of course, without the practice no reason to expect improvement. ----------------------------------- Then there are rupas too; are these being exclude and, if so, is that not a selectin or preference? ---------------------------------- Howard: Huh? ---------------------------------- >Sometimes there is wholesomeness and sometimes not, not directly controllable. We >need to pay attention as best we can and see what is what as best we can. If >we don't bother to do this because there is no guarantee at all of doing it >perfectly, then we have ever right to have no expectation whatsoever of ever >awakening. > > Any 'paying attention' (done as a 'practice') that is not wholesomeness is wrong practice. In my view it would be more harmful than not paying attention at all. ---------------------------------- Howard: As you wish, Jon. :-) --------------------------------- >Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, >that is not found in the texts) >------------------------------------- >Howard: > Ahh, there ya go - I must learn to curtail that unapproved terminology! > > The terminology is not the point, it was the underlying sentiment or thought that I was referring to. There is no term in the texts that corresponds to 'cultivational activity'. ---------------------------------- Howard: So you don't understand what I mean? I'll explain: It's conventional activity - the kind you seem to think you don't enagage in, or at least shouldn't. ;-) ----------------------------------- There are of course the 37 'bodhi-pakkhiya-dhammas' but there is a good reasons why these are referred to as 'dhammas' and not as 'activities' or some other similar term. ------------------------------ Howard: Pleasant notions, Jon. Concept-only so long as we do nothing about practice. ----------------------------- Jon ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47791 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, I am inclined to emphasize paññaa. this can lead to the eradication of ignorance so that the cycle will cease. But we have to know what ignorance, avijjaa, is and what understanding, vijjaa, is. Nina. op 15-07-2005 15:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > The explanation by my highly respected Thai Forest monk is clear to > me. Thinking involves more than vitakka & vicara: chanda, cetana > (volition), manasikara(attention), vitakka & vicara, adhimokkha > (determination), viriya(effort), piti (joy), phassa(consciousness- > impression), and jivita(vitality). The following implications are very > interesting : 1) How do these 11 cetasika in worldlings lead to dukkha? > 2) In order that dukkha ceases "thinking" must stop. Does that include > cessation of citta-sankhara? 47792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. nilovg Hi Larry, op 16-07-2005 00:36 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears." L: For me, sati comes first, then body consciousness. Why remember a body > consciousness? --- N: Sati is aware of an object that appears through a doorway. Sati always has an object. In a process there is first body-consciousness experiencing tangible object. After that there are kusala or akusala javanacittas. The kusala javana cittas can be accompanied by sati which is mindful of tangible object. Nina. 47793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nilovg Dear Connie, You took a lot of trouble, thank you. I especially liked the passage about viriya, effort: op 16-07-2005 07:36 schreef connie op connieparker@...: >Ta:< .... one shouldn't be careless, it means > there is viriya, so one is not careless. ... this is the careful of studying, to know when there is viriya but people might think that they have to do other extra thing, not like this > moment. but now there is viriya. who knows? those who had enlighten > know, knew about this, but for the person who just begin to read, one has > to consider that no one can do any viriya or no one can create any viriya > because viriya is there already. so who can do anything? it's there. it > arises and it falls away. who can do, anything? realities are > conditioned. > sacca ñaa.na, sacca is truth. To have firm understanding of the right Path. To know what should be realized. kicca ñaa.na. kicca is function or task. Beginning to be aware of dhammas. kata ñaa.na. Kata: what has been done. the realization of the truth. Nina. 47794 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Concerning whether a practitioner should be "endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue" first before starting to develop insight, you asked (message #47784): >Jon: >I agree that virtue supports the development of insight, and that >perfection of virtue is one of the goals. But I do not read the texts as >saying that insight can only be developed once virtue has been >perfected (not that I'm suggesting that you are saying this), and >so as I see it lack of virtue in a person is not an obstacle to that >person beginning the development of insight. What do you think? Tep: Fortunately the Buddha's Teaching in this sutta [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] is not that rigid. You're right to say "But I do not read the texts as saying that insight can only be developed once virtue has been perfected..". The key is in cetana -- for example, once you become dispassionate (endowed with, or fulfilled with viraga) then even with no cetana to realize the knowledge & vision of release, you will realize it -- i.e. it is guaranteed by the Buddha. Of course, there is no rule (laid by the Buddha) against starting with vipassana bhavana when we are not yet "fulfilled" with virtues. But a person who starts at intellectual understanding of the ti-lakkhana and stays there without being endowed with viraga can only wish or intend to realize the knowledge and vision of release. And, unfortunately, there is no guarantee of the realization for such a person, according to this sutta. In my opinion, starting anywhere doesn't matter. The point is that you must be dispassionate first before the realization. And the question is how to become dispassionate. Now, if you work your way backward to find the condition that guarantees dispassionate, you'll find 'yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana', and so on to consummation in virtues. That, to me, is an Q.E.D. that it is best to shoot for consummation in virtues one day, no matter where you started. Thank you for being one of the "perfect gentlemen" of this group. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 47795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Dear Agrios, op 15-07-2005 21:42 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: >> N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the > object so >> that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible > object, >> and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. > [...] > I am not curious about thinking which arises from various sources, > but rather about mental pictures popping up by themself, without any > thinker being involved. -------- N: You give some examples. It seems to be that such experiences are not the actual seeing or hearing like we do now. Then there are cittas experiencing objects through the mind-door. Saññaa operates so that there are reminiscences, even from long ago, even from the far past, who knows? We cannot trace that and why should we find out? ------- You wrote to Herman: < This things seems to be kamma related, definitely Self made, > and the more carefully I observe them, the more there is of them. > Thinking about them leads nowhere, just more propositions to check out. > Experience is having profound impact on my life, literally ruling > big part of it.> ------- Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala cittas. You say that thinking about such images leads to nowhere, but inspite of this it has impact on you. Then if you understand that they are merely condiitoned dhammas you may attach less importance to them. Why not develop more understanding of the objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? Nina. 47796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Your message #47785 is concerned with a "mistaken view" on the anapanasati's power of leading to enlightenment. >Jon: Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as >one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed >samatha results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth >in particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. > >Tep: Vism Para 237 says the fourth tetrad deals only with "pure insight" >while the previous three deal with serenity and insight. So, you may > want to consider changing your view above. > I'm not sure which view you refer to here, but I'd be happy to have any mistaken view pointed out. Jon --------------- Tep: The view that anapanasati bhavana is "fullly developed samatha bhavana" and as such it "does not per se lead to enlightenment" is mistaken. Why? Because it deals with serenity and sight in the 3 tetrads plus full vipassana (aniccnupassana, viraganupassana, nirodhanupassana, and patinissagganupassana) in the last tetrad. Therefore, anapanasati does lead to enlightenment. Q.E.D. Ask Kelvin too. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 47797 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon : I shall be glad if you may point out for me a few suttas in which the Buddha taught his monks the "mundane jhana" that did not lead to enlightenment as the goal. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > (snipped) > > Tep's Q: Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? > > Jon's A: I'm not sure if the actual term 'mundane jhana' appears in the > suttas, but any jhana occurring other than at the moment of > enlightenment is 'mundane' and not 'supramundane'. Understood this way, there are many, many references in the suttas to mundane jhana. > > I hope this clarifies. > > >Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. > > > > > > And I hope it can continue further. > > Jon 47798 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:54am Subject: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi all - Why is "the whole" less real than "the part"? The assumption is that parts are directly experienced and the the whole is mentally constructed. Actually, the appearance of the direct opposite is the norm. One might well surmise that it is relative wholes that are experienced, and parts that are mentally constructed. Is it not possible that both positions are off the mark? I suspect that all individuation, at both macroscopic and microscopic levels, is the result of ignorance-based mental processing. There are no separate realities, it seems to me, neither wholes nor parts. All this whole-making and part-making may well be papa~nca. I believe that it is. What actually *is* the case, what "the real" actually is, I believe is directly knowable but indescribable. It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic level. Emptiness of "the person" is an instance of an un-reified perspective at the macroscopic level, and phenomenal emptiness is the un-reified perspective at the microscopic level. Consistently, at all levels, anatta is the reality -absence of any core of separateness or independence, absence of identity. Every alleged separate "entity" is empty -- empty of itself! I put forward the foregoing just as something to consider. I will certainly discuss this, but I'm not looking to argue or defend. I expect some replies to give reasons why parts should take priority over wholes in terms of realities. And perhaps there is some validity to that, or perhaps not. I can imagine a few arguing the opposite. I tend to think that both positions are extremes that are off the mark. Some may say that what I am putting forward is contrary to the Dhamma. That I strongly disagree with. It may well be at odds with the interpretation some put on the Dhamma, especially as seen through the lens of Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think it is perfectly consistent with the Dhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka taken as a whole. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47799 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - In an earlier message I wrote: > > Tep: > > The explanation by my highly respected Thai Forest monk is clear to me. Thinking involves more than vitakka & vicara: chanda, cetana > > (volition), manasikara(attention), vitakka & vicara, adhimokkha > > (determination), viriya(effort), piti (joy), phassa(consciousness- > > impression), and jivita(vitality). The following implications are very > > interesting : 1) How do these 11 cetasika in worldlings lead to dukkha? > > 2) In order that dukkha ceases "thinking" must stop. Does that include cessation of citta-sankhara? You responded : "I am inclined to emphasize pannaa. This can lead to the eradication of ignorance so that the cycle will cease. But we have to know what ignorance, avijjaa, is and what understanding, vijjaa, is." Of course, if you started with vijja, then all questions would cease. Warm regards, Tep ======= -------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: (snipped)