47800 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - You were talking about intellectual understanding and right understanding. To me they are very far away from each other. Something like transforming a gold fish into dragon. >Tep: What conditions understanding that comes along with the >right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and vipassana. Tep: I don't think so, Nina. I know many Buddhists who started with correct intellectual understanding of the Dhamma 30 years ago, and they are still with intellectual understanding today. They have not yet transformed into dragons. ----------------------- >N: >Howard writes: >In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, >perserverence, and calm. ------- N: But right understanding has to know that we have the true, kusala intention, perserverence, and calm, and not what a person erroneously takes for them. This is a danger that is not to be underestimated. I also speak for myself here, I am inclined to take patience, perseverance and calm when there is kusala for mine. Lobha is tricky, it is hidden. Thus, right understanding has to be emphasized. But this is difficult for an oridinary person, of course. It is easy to oversee pittfalls. Tep: Thank you for quoting the words of Howards along with your comment. I absolutely agree with you about the "danger" which may result from overseeing the "pittfalls". But there is always such a danger accompanying every level as long as there is ignorance, while we struggle to develop sila-samadhi-panna along the way. I don't know how to start at the "right understanding" you are describing. I know one way to get to that advanced level is by practicing indriya- samvara-sila with khanti and viriya to support the four foundations of mindfulness, according to the Kundaliya Sutta. Even indriya-samvara- sila does not depend on intellectual understanding anymore. Respectfully, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > > op 17-07-2005 03:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > N:> When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > >> Nina. > > > > What conditions understanding that comes along with the right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? > ------ > N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and > vipassana. > 47801 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes fir... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/17/05 12:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Nina - You were talking about intellectual understanding and right understanding. To me they are very far away from each other. Something like transforming a gold fish into dragon. >Tep: What conditions understanding that comes along with the >right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and vipassana. Tep: I don't think so, Nina. I know many Buddhists who started with correct intellectual understanding of the Dhamma 30 years ago, and they are still with intellectual understanding today. They have not yet transformed into dragons. ----------------------- >N: >Howard writes: >In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, >perserverence, and calm. ------- N: But right understanding has to know that we have the true, kusala intention, perserverence, and calm, and not what a person erroneously takes for them. This is a danger that is not to be underestimated. I also speak for myself here, I am inclined to take patience, perseverance and calm when there is kusala for mine. Lobha is tricky, it is hidden. Thus, right understanding has to be emphasized. But this is difficult for an oridinary person, of course. It is easy to oversee pittfalls. Tep: Thank you for quoting the words of Howards along with your comment. I absolutely agree with you about the "danger" which may result from overseeing the "pittfalls". But there is always such a danger accompanying every level as long as there is ignorance, while we struggle to develop sila-samadhi-panna along the way. I don't know how to start at the "right understanding" you are describing. I know one way to get to that advanced level is by practicing indriya- samvara-sila with khanti and viriya to support the four foundations of mindfulness, according to the Kundaliya Sutta. Even indriya-samvara- sila does not depend on intellectual understanding anymore. Respectfully, Tep ============================= An interesting matter related to this discussion is the Tibetan Buddhist perspective on intellectual understanding. It is very similar to that expressed on DSG! The Tibetans, especially the Gelugpa and Kagyu madhyamikas put tremendous emphasis on analytic, contemplative meditation and study. They frequently express the idea that the application of rigorous logical analysis and contemplation of the Dharma (i.e., Dhamma) conditions the arising of prajna (i.e., pa~n~na). Of course, they don't ignore samatha bhavana by a long shot, but rigorous study, and logical and intellectual anaysis and contemplation is at the heart of their approach. They also make a major deal out of the unreality of concepts! So, perhaps the core DSG folks are crypto-vajrayanists! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47802 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon, > >You asked: "What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison?" > >Wisdom -- developing knowledge and understanding of both. > That very much depends on your definition of wisdom ;-)) >You stated: "There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go." > >If you are truly selfless, there is no clinging in the Buddhist sense of the word. But, any way even if you are cling and selfless (alone either path) you are not suffering do to your experiences and you are not intestinally causing others to suffer. This fulfils a mission of both Christians and Buddhists. > > But how does one become 'truly selfless' on the first place? Does the kind of comparison we are talking about help towards that goal? Jon 47803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 nilovg Hi Tep, op 17-07-2005 14:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > [Han: "kla" in niklesa is a conjunct consonant like "kkha" in bhikkhu. It is > a very rare conjunct consonant and I cannot find the word niklesa in the > dictionaries.] N: ni+ noun means: without (PED at end of ni prefix). Kilesa or klesa: defilement, in PED. NIna. 47804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tibetan studies. nilovg Hi Howard, when walking around in Bodhgaya I saw Tibetans sitting there with their books and studying them very intently, with great concentration and dedication. I was impressed by their earnestness. Nina. op 17-07-2005 19:14 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > The Tibetans, especially the Gelugpa and Kagyu madhyamikas put > tremendous emphasis on analytic, contemplative meditation and study. They > frequently express the idea that the application of rigorous logical analysis > and > contemplation of the Dharma (i.e., Dhamma) conditions the arising of prajna > (i.e., > pa~n~na). 47805 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/17/05 4:59:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, This is very good to reflect on. I like to highlight the two methods: analytical and synthetical or relational. Not so much concept versus reality, since there were so many debates, if you know what I mean. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I certainly do! ;-) -------------------------------------------- op 16-07-2005 17:07 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Hardness, warmth, > sights, sounds, tastes, mind-moments, pleasant feelings, cravings, > concentration, mindfulness, attention, distractedness etc, AS SEPARATE > REALITIES, do not > exist. Conventionally they exist as separate entities, but not actually. They > are accorded separate existence only on the basis of mental constructions > (sankharic operations). In reality, they are interrelated facets of an > inseparable experiential stream, facets either dependently co-occuring, or > consecutively > occurring without gap, or arising subsequently in conditioned dependence, but > not existing as separate entities at all. ------- N: I understand what you mean. It is true, there are no separate dhammas, dhammas in isolation. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Good! I mean no more than this (and no less). ------------------------------------------- ------ H: ... The analysis of wholes into parts ... But there lies a danger in that approach: the danger in > according separate reality to "atomic" constitents that result from such > analysis. > Techniques to counter such error are to be found in the synthetic, relational > approach of the Patthana, and more essentially in my opinion, in the use of > paticcasamupada as a contemplative scheme. > To sum up, I see emptiness (lack of separate existence or lack of > ultimate reality) as the cognitive partner to emotional relinquishment, and I > believe > that it is insight into the former along with cultivation of the latter that > leads to awakening. ------- N: You may find Abhidhamma Studies by ven. Nyanaponika, II the Twofold Method interesting. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a good reference. I own it, but I haven't read it for a very long time. ----------------------------------------------- He explains that the two methods are necessary. It is rejected by the Expositor that any dhamma arises singly. (p. 22 of Abh Studies). And p. 23: he calls internal relations those within a citta (the cetasikas which condiiton the citta) and external relation the connections between several of such units. The Patthana is mainly concerned with these so called external relations. We read in Abh Studies: He applies this to the Satipatthana sutta, differentiating: contemplation of internal phenomena, those in others and the combination, Then he shows the meaning of: dhammas as arising, as passing away and the combination of both. Now about the stages of insight: <1 Analysis of the corporeal (ruupa) | | analysis 2:Analysis of the mental (naama) | 3 Contemplation of both (naama-ruupa) | | Synthesis 4 both viewed as conditioned (paticcasamuppaado) | 5 Application of the three characteristics to mind-and-body-cum-conditions= combination of analysis and synthesis.> end quote. **** My remarks: this fits with the stages of insight. We have to learn first nama as nama and rupa as rupa, and there can be awareness of only one characteristic at a time. It is impossible to be aware of seeing and visible object at the same time. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I see these as mutually dependent facets of a "larger" momentary experiential reality. I agree that they cannot simultaneously be objects of vi~n~nana. (I also believe with considerable certainty, however, that the larger momentary experiential reality which subsumes the two is nondually available to some in an experiential state that has no sense of either subject or object.) ------------------------------------------ The second stage is knowing dhammas as conditioned. This is not intellectual understanding of conditions, but by direct understanding, by insight. We cannot imagine yet how this can be realized without thinking, but paññaa is able to achieve this. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not there, not with a direct seeing that is anything but shaky and vague! ;-)) But I recognize this as a critical stage - a major jump! ---------------------------------------- Since I am only a beginner, I pay attention to understanding one nama or rupa as it appears. This is the analytical method, but without this, there will be a great deal of confusion about the Patthana and the D.O. We have to understand which dhamma exactly conditions which dhamma, and by what type of relation: simultaneous or not simultaneous. When we study all this we have to keep in mind that pariyatti is not patipatti, although correct pariyatti is a foundation for patipatti. Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47806 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > Then there are cittas experiencing objects through the mind-door. Saññaa > operates so that there are reminiscences, even from long ago, even from the > far past, who knows? We cannot trace that and why should we find out? I do not want to trace them to the source, but rather to find out how they arise in the present moment and why. I can only see them when they already are manifested. Then certain reactions to them - follow. These flashes are more or less like some sort of bomb or track changing device. Derail attention or vitaka and another cittas arise... somewhere... in bushes. :) usually chasing these "flashes of something". > Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they > are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala > cittas. There is strong Self here wanting to stay on the subject of "just observing" and not being pushed around :) Lots of moha, lobha and dosa. So akusala is right. Could you please explain why mind door is so different? I would like to understand why five senses produce vipaka cittas but sixth not. > You say that thinking about such images leads to nowhere, but in spite of > this it has impact on you. > Then if you understand that they are merely conditioned dhammas you may > attach less importance to them. Why not develop more understanding of the > objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? > Nina. Nina, if I only can do something about it. I am just observing whats going on. Knowing about them being just flashes doesn't help. I still think this is happening to me, so no panna here. During practice, when there is no more thinking, right in split second there is sudden flash - and my mind is chasing shadows... again :) Could this be restlessness I am observing? Whats the source of restlessnes? respectfully, Agrios. 47807 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ Evan_Stamato... Tep, Sorry to answer a question asked directly of Jon, but it is a topic I feel stronly about. Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the following quote from MN52 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn052-tb0.html). This quote was spoken by Ananda, however, not the Buddha, however, there are many other suttas in which the Buddha does exhort the bhikkhus in the same way: "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana". There are also suttas where he tells them to transcend these states as they are not completely still or satisfactory. ______________________________ "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then - through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters [self-identity views, grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and irritation] - he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One - the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened - where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] ______________________________ The sutta goes on the state the same for the divine abidings also and the higher jhanas. All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal. The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal. There is no turning back and one is assured of not falling back into any of the woeful states. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 18 July 2005 1:35 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ Hi, Jon : I shall be glad if you may point out for me a few suttas in which the Buddha taught his monks the "mundane jhana" that did not lead to enlightenment as the goal. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > (snipped) > > Tep's Q: Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? > > Jon's A: I'm not sure if the actual term 'mundane jhana' appears in > the suttas, but any jhana occurring other than at the moment of > enlightenment is 'mundane' and not 'supramundane'. Understood this way, there are many, many references in the suttas to mundane jhana. > > I hope this clarifies. > > >Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. > > > > > > And I hope it can continue further. > > Jon 47808 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. lbidd2 Nina: "Sati is aware of an object that appears through a doorway. Sati always has an object. In a process there is first body-consciousness experiencing tangible object. After that there are kusala or akusala javanacittas. The kusala javana cittas can be accompanied by sati which is mindful of tangible object." Hi Nina, When sati is experienced sati is the object. When body consciousness is experienced there is only body consciousness. Larry 47809 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan {and Jon} - Thank you for participating in the discussion. It should not be thought of as a close-door communication between Jon and me, because we are always happy whenever someone joins us. It is more lively with more people ! So you wrote the following about the jhanas: -- "Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the following quote from MN52." -- "All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal." -- "The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal." MN 52 states for the 1st (and also for any higher) jhana, " He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then ... ...." So, my understanding of MN52 is that a jhana that is followed by anupassana on the impermanent characteristic of the jhana-citta may or may not lead to release; further, pure Jhana attainment alone is not sufficient for release. However, there is no mentioning about a "mundane" jhana in this sutta -- or in any of the suttas I have studied. My suspicion has been that the term "mundane" was invented by a commentator. That's why I asked Jon to help me reject/confirm my suspicion. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Tep, > > Sorry to answer a question asked directly of Jon, but it is a topic I > feel stronly about. > > Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the > following quote from MN52 > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn052- tb0.html). > This quote was spoken by Ananda, however, not the Buddha, however, there are many other suttas in which the Buddha does exhort the bhikkhus in the same way: "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana". There are also suttas where he tells them to transcend these states as they are not completely still or satisfactory. > > ______________________________ > "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the > first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This > first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & > intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he > reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then - > through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters [self-identity views, > grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and > irritation] - he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be > totally unbound, never again to return from that world. > > "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One - > the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self- awakened - where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. > > [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] > ______________________________ > > The sutta goes on the state the same for the divine abidings also and > the higher jhanas. > > All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal. The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal. There is no turning back and one is assured of not falling back into any of the woeful states. > > With Metta, > > Evan > 47810 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana Evan_Stamato... Tep, I understand your focus and I must admit that I do not remember in any of the DN, MN or SN suttas there being mention of mundane and supramundane w.r.t jhanas but my memory is not that good so I would rather wait for Jon's response. There is an interesting discussion on mundane/supramundane jhanas which even though it doesn't answer your question, may be of interest. You can find it here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas05.htm With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 18 July 2005 11:04 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana Hi, Evan {and Jon} - Thank you for participating in the discussion. It should not be thought of as a close-door communication between Jon and me, because we are always happy whenever someone joins us. It is more lively with more people ! So you wrote the following about the jhanas: -- "Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the following quote from MN52." -- "All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal." -- "The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal." MN 52 states for the 1st (and also for any higher) jhana, " He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then ... ...." So, my understanding of MN52 is that a jhana that is followed by anupassana on the impermanent characteristic of the jhana-citta may or may not lead to release; further, pure Jhana attainment alone is not sufficient for release. However, there is no mentioning about a "mundane" jhana in this sutta -- or in any of the suttas I have studied. My suspicion has been that the term "mundane" was invented by a commentator. That's why I asked Jon to help me reject/confirm my suspicion. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Tep, > > Sorry to answer a question asked directly of Jon, but it is a topic I > feel stronly about. > > Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the > following quote from MN52 > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn052- tb0.html). > This quote was spoken by Ananda, however, not the Buddha, however, there are many other suttas in which the Buddha does exhort the bhikkhus in the same way: "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana". There are also suttas where he tells them to transcend these states as they are not completely still or satisfactory. > > ______________________________ > "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in > the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, > 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated > & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, > he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then - > through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters [self-identity views, > grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and > irritation] - he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be > totally unbound, never again to return from that world. > > "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One - > the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self- awakened - where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. > > [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] > ______________________________ > > The sutta goes on the state the same for the divine abidings also and > the higher jhanas. > > All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal. The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal. There is no turning back and one is assured of not falling back into any of the woeful states. > > With Metta, > > Evan > 47811 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nichiconn Dear Nina, Thank you for the further explanation (and the spelling!). Could you please make my Thai recognizable, too? B_Benares_02.mp3? >> per iryaba kam li santati kanat sanna 3 things which hinder the experiencing of the arising and falling away << There is also a later Thai section on these, but I'll just skip that. Hard for me to connect sometimes other sounds as being Pali words my eyes are familiar with, even! Read today in Dispeller considering 'that natural language': <<[1946-1961] Discrimination of Language comes to have sound (words) as its object, not a concept as its object [...] but when the ear is merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even if he has learnt much.>> and from Gangtok: "if we don't forget that the teachings of buddha is according to his understanding and enlightenment, we'll not be careless and think that it's very easy. ...one should know whether it is one's one understanding or not yet. ... one shouldn't be heedless about ...those who just learn to think about the name, like seeing, nama and visible object, rupa. That is not enough. because buddha didn't just develop his understanding just to tell us about the name of all these realities, but he had to use the term to define and to point out the characteristic of reality, for those who is not careless will develop gradually until it's one's own understanding. For example, visible object is now is one's own understanding that it's just that which can be seen?" begin again! connie sacca ñaa.na, sacca is truth. To have firm understanding of the right Path. To know what should be realized. kicca ñaa.na. kicca is function or task. Beginning to be aware of dhammas. kata ñaa.na. Kata: what has been done. the realization of the truth. Nina. 47812 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > Why not develop more understanding > of the > > objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? > > Nina. Nina! what if these flashes are mental sankharas. Is it possible? Until now, I understood sankharas as some sort of "thinking clusters" something forming... like thinking. But never actually seen them "in action". But if I understand sankharas as determinations, then everything falls into right place, including avija-sankhara-vinnana sequence! What do you think? Agrios. 47813 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:58pm Subject: Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness egberdina Hi Howard, This is such a great post !!!! I especially agree with the bit between "Hi all" and where you sign off :-) There was another one recently, which I wanted to thank you for, but I just can't find it at the moment. Anyway, thank you. This is awesome indeed. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi all - > > Why is "the whole" less real than "the part"? The assumption is that > parts are directly experienced and the the whole is mentally constructed. > Actually, the appearance of the direct opposite is the norm. One might well surmise > that it is relative wholes that are experienced, and parts that are mentally > constructed. Is it not possible that both positions are off the mark? I suspect > that all individuation, at both macroscopic and microscopic levels, is the > result of ignorance-based mental processing. There are no separate realities, it > seems to me, neither wholes nor parts. All this whole-making and part-making > may well be papa~nca. I believe that it is. What actually *is* the case, what > "the real" actually is, I believe is directly knowable but indescribable. > It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's > deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to > help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. > And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic > level. Emptiness of "the person" is an instance of an un-reified perspective at > the macroscopic level, and phenomenal emptiness is the un-reified perspective > at the microscopic level. Consistently, at all levels, anatta is the reality > -absence of any core of separateness or independence, absence of identity. > Every alleged separate "entity" is empty -- empty of itself! > I put forward the foregoing just as something to consider. I will > certainly discuss this, but I'm not looking to argue or defend. I expect some replies > to give reasons why parts should take priority over wholes in terms of > realities. And perhaps there is some validity to that, or perhaps not. I can imagine > a few arguing the opposite. I tend to think that both positions are extremes > that are off the mark. Some may say that what I am putting forward is contrary > to the Dhamma. That I strongly disagree with. It may well be at odds with the > interpretation some put on the Dhamma, especially as seen through the lens of > Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think it is perfectly consistent with the > Dhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka taken as a whole. > > With metta, > Howard 47814 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:18pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 250 - Attachment/lobha (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Lobha is attached to many different kinds of objects and it has many degrees. Different names can denote the cetasika which is lobha. Råga (greed), abhijjå (covetousness) and taùhå (craving) are other names for lobha. When lobha is coarse it motivates akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) through body, speech or mind. Because of lobha one may commit many kinds of bad deeds in order to obtain what one desires. If the degree of akusala is such that it motivates an evil deed, the result of it may be an unhappy rebirth or unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of life. Lobha can motivate akusala kamma pathas through the body, which are stealing and sexual misbehaviour, and akusala kamma pathas through speech which are lying, slandering and idle talk. Lobha can motivate covetousness or abhijjå, the desire to take away someone else’s property, which is akusala kamma patha through the mind. Moreover, when it is accompanied by diììhi, it can motivate certain kinds of wrong view which are akusala kamma patha through the mind(1). As regards covetousness, the Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) states that it should be regarded as the outstretched hand of the mind (reaching) for others’ prosperity. If one merely wishes to have someone else’s property but does not plan to take it away, greed is not akusala kamma patha. There are many degrees of greed and only when one really plans to take away someone else’s property it is akusala kamma patha through the mind(2). *** 1) Certain kinds of wrong view, not every kind, are akusala kamma patha through the mind. I shall deal with these in Chapter 16. 2) Atthasåliní I, Part III, Chapter V, 101. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47815 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Dear Nina, > Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they > are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala > cittas. > You say that thinking about such images leads to nowhere, but inspite of > this it has impact on you. > Then if you understand that they are merely condiitoned dhammas you may > attach less importance to them. Why not develop more understanding of the > objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? == You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop more understanding. Which one is it to be? Kind Regards Herman 47816 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan - I really appreciated the opportunity to discuss the origin of mundane jhana with you. At this point we have agreed that no suttas we have studied contain this term. Perhaps, Jon can show us the origin of mundane jhanas since he was the one who brought it up in the first place. Please stay in the loop. Thank you for the Web link too. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Tep, > > I understand your focus and I must admit that I do not remember in any > of the DN, MN or SN suttas there being mention of mundane and > supramundane w.r.t jhanas but my memory is not that good so I would > rather wait for Jon's response. There is an interesting discussion on > mundane/supramundane jhanas which even though it doesn't answer your question, may be of interest. You can find it here: > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas05.htm > > With Metta, > > Evan > 47817 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: flashes of something rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > through the six doorways at this moment? > > == > > You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling > everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop > more understanding. > > Which one is it to be? > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Dear Herman, What understanding sees is that there is no control. RobertK 47818 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? egberdina Hi Jon, > When I said the whole Tipitaka I meant of course as much of the Tipitaka as we know. But yes, the study of the Tipitaka is a life-time job, but then so is the development of insight, and it is for the purpose of the latter that the former is done. > Just out of interest, Jon, in this life-time of you purposefully studying the Tipitaka (practice), is there ever any unwholesomeness? Follow your own advice, Jon, and put the books down. Kind Regards Herman 47819 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi RobertK and (Agrios), Sorry to be talking about you in your absence, Agrios :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > through the six doorways at this moment? > > > > == > > > > You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling > > everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop > > more understanding. > > > > Which one is it to be? > Dear Herman, > What understanding sees is that there is no control. So Nina's advice to Agrios was not to set out and purposefully develop this understanding? Kind Regards Herman 47820 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:57am Subject: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... christine_fo... Hello all, I am looking for a sutta which is in the Samyutta Nikaya somewhere ... It concerns the five (I think) things a woman cannot be. One of them is a Sammasambuddha and I think among the others are World Turning monarch, Mara, and possibly king of the gods. Any help in pointing me to this sutta would be much appreciated. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 47821 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... christine_fo... Hello All, I found it!! Sorry - gave you all a wrong steer - I've found what I was looking for in the Majjhima Nikaya 115.15 The Many Kinds of Elements: "He understands: 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is no such possibility.' [1090] And he understands: 'It is possible that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is such a possibility'. He understands 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... that a woman could occupy the position of Sakka ... that a woman could occupy the position of Maara ... that a woman could occupy the position of Brahmaa - there is no such possibility.' And he understands: 'It is possible that a man might be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... that a man might occupy the position of Sakka ... that a man might occupy the position of Maara ... that a man might occupy the position of Brahmaa - there is such a possibility.' Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation note: 1090 - This statement asserts only that a Fully Enlightened Buddha always has the male sex, but does not deny that a person who is now a woman may become a Fully Enlightened Buddha in the future. To do so, however, at an earlier point she will have had to be reborn as a man. metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > I am looking for a sutta which is in the Samyutta Nikaya somewhere ... > It concerns the five (I think) things a woman cannot be. > > One of them is a Sammasambuddha and I think among the others are World > Turning monarch, Mara, and possibly king of the gods. > > Any help in pointing me to this sutta would be much appreciated. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 47822 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness philofillet Hi Howard and all >> It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's > deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to > help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. > And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic > level. Yes, well said. We learn to let go of clinging to people and things (reify at the macroscopic level) as understanding develops, and we see that the elemental components of experience, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus (and any other ways the Buddha broke things down in order to help us develop understanding of anatta) are momentary and miniscule in both duration and import. I know you think that the Abhidhamma approach sets up cittas as small agents of knowing and I guess you see that as a kind of reification or deification or something, but looking at things in that way is just to help us to better understand anatta, not to set up cittas and cetasikas as little kings. Those similes are not to be held on to. They are helpful to some people but are not at the core of the teaching. We come to see that elements are hardly anything to seek to hold on to or care about, so I don't think there is reification there. But I may have misunderstood you. Or do you see reification in the teaching that rare, momentary awareness of paramattha dhammas is of great import? Wouldn't that be reification of the mindfulness of paramattha dhammas rather than the paramattha dhammas themselves? BTW, these days I am feeling that I will say "paramattha dhammas" or "Dhamma realities" or something like that rather than "realities." I keep thinking these days that the Buddha was not a scientist and didn't seek to explain the workings of the world as a scientist does and that simply saying "realities" could mislead people into going about things with too much of a physiological/psychological bent. (Is that "phenomenolgical?" I've never gotten around to asking what that word means!) He discovered and explained a system of understanding the world for the purpose of liberation from suffering, so, personally speaking, I don't expect close phenomenological (?) investigation of what is going on physiologically through the sense doors to perfectly match the Buddha's teaching. He discovered and taught for the purpose of liberation, not scientific investigation. So, for example, I wouldn't ponder the import of cochlear implants as Herman does or did, because it seems to me that that is the realm of neurology or some other logy, not Dhamma. We take what the Buddha or those noble ariyan disciples who followed him closely (if one doubts the authorship of Abhidhamma) taught, and *believe* it, and patiently work towards understanding it. I guess you and many others say that we should never believe anything that we haven't confirmed phenomenologically, through our own experience, but I think that's a mistake. Believing has to come first. This is a religion, after all. If we stick with blind faith, that would be silly - we gradually move towards confirming whatever aspects of Dhamma we can. But at first there cannot be much of this confirmation, I'd say. There must be so much patience. Sorry Howard, I rambled off topic there, as usual. I guess this is something I've wanted to say to you and others who stress the priority of experiencing things before believing them. You may be right. This is just how I'm thinking these days. Metta, Phil p.s Herman, hi, back to your post in a few days. 47823 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah & All... sarahprocter... Hi Alice, (Christine, AntonyW & all) I’m rather behind with some replies .... --- balancing_life wrote: > Just to explain, the very first thing that i did after reading > Buddhism books were not to take lives, and that meant to me to become > a vegetarian, but unfortunately although i love vegetables, i failed, .... S: not taking lives does not mean one has to be a vegetarian. The Buddha wasn’t. ..... > cos although i do not order pork, beef, mutton or chickens for my > meals, i still cannot resist eating KFC, fish meat, prawns, cockles, > cuttlefish & squid...and if some of them came along with the foods i > ordered, i had to finish them off, as it has been ingrained in me by > my mum, since very young to finish everything that is on my plate or > else in my next life, i wouldn't have anything to eat. ... S: :) I had the same training..... ..... > I once asked a Mahayana monk about this, and he said not to worry > about it, as i am just a "layperson", but he advised me only to buy > only cooked food or "dressed" chickens, ie, not to give an order to > slaughter, "live" chickens, cattle, goats, pigs, prawns, etc. ... S: I think this was good advice and is supported by the Buddha’s words. Not just laypeople, but also bhikkhus eat meat unless specially slaughtered. Others may add more details if you request – I’m afraid I won’t have time to pull out texts this week. (Chris, Antony W??) ..... > When i first read about the precept of not taking lives, including > insects, at first i was also so depressed that we are not allowed to > kill mosquitoes that are sucking my blood, but just to brush them > away, and also that means also not to kill cockroaches, but having > the experience of the foul smelling creature, if they were given the > chance to multiply, they will quickly infest the whole house, and > each time that i see one crossing my path, i would kill it, whilst > uttering "Om Mani PadMe Hum"...hmmm, definitely so unBuddhist of me, > but i've got no choice. .... S: This is just thinking about it. When we’re confident that avoiding harm is the right way and there is metta instead of dosa at such times, one isn’t bothered by the mosquitoes or cockroaches. I’ve seen amongst my students that those who are most bothered are the ones flapping and swatting and just building up dosa. I think we can just get used to wearing suitable clothing, using insect repellant spray, keeping the house clean, taking cockroaches outside and so on.....Again, I’m sure others like Chris and Antony could add more. .... > > And after reading all those Buddhism books, my anger has more or less > dissapatied, although i do feel hurt & dissapointed with ManKind, > whenever people are angry with me or when Buddhism yahoo groups > members fight amongst themselves, and fyi, i have never in my life, > had a verbal fight or otherwise, with anyone in my life. .... S: but when we feel angry or disappointed, it’s also dosa – whether we show it or keep quiet. We can always justify this dosa, but the problem is never mankind... .... > > My depression is not about the anger, with the ones who caused my > niece's death, but about my own regrets, .... S: It’s understandable and I’m sure it’s the same for her father. But it’s so useless as you can see in his case. Better to put your time and energy into helping others as you try to do. ... > about not knowing more or > being closer to my nieces, that they can approach me, if they have > any problems...as i said earlier, i always thought they would be here > forever, ie, that they would outlive me...it's just that i do not > understand why kids, just at the age of 12, would do such a thing? .... S: It’s quite a common problem and often there are no warning signals at all. Like your niece, some girls may be very well-behaved good students and may keep all their depressions and worries to themselves. Please don’t blame yourself anymore. .... > Let us say, that sadly, my brother is a person, who would "cut off > his nose, in order to spite his face" and anybody who has "stepped on > his tail", would be severely "punished" & that is why he is reminding > them yearly, which i feel the money of just a day's advertisement, > (it costs him about RM2,000 or USD 500), could be put to a better > use...more than a month's salary, in my case. .... S: He has to do things his way. We can’t always help those dear to us. Be patient and have metta, so he knows he can turn to you if he wishes. As you go on to say, ‘there is no use in talking or persuading him otherwise. ‘. .... > It's just that he still has "attachement" to her and is still unable > to "let go" yet, since she died in such a tragic circumstance...if > she passed away, due to an illness, then he probably would not feel > that way...as Muslims would say, "Insyallah", meaning "God's Will" or > in Buddhist terms, Karma/Kamma, Fate/Fated, Destiny or Kismet. ... S: He blames himself instead of accepting the complex conditions and kamma at work. It must be very hard for him and he needs to be strong for the rest of his family. .... > > Like you, Sarah, eversince i have been a very young gal, a pre- > schooler, i was not like the normal kids, meaning, i would sit down > on a rattan chair after my dinner at 5pm, in the garden and my > favourite past-time would be looking at the clouds, watching them > changing shapes, as they rolled away in the skies, and i would wonder > why on earth i was put on Earth for, ie, for what purpose...very deep > thinking for a kindergartener, isn't it, and when i found Buddhism, i > at last, wondered no more...i think that i must have been a Buddhist, > in my last life as well. .... S: Wow! – I don’t recall experiences like this at such a young age. .... > > Ok, gotto go and don't worry about me...my depression is about other > things now, as i feel that i have used up all my good Karma and is > now reaping my bad Karma, .... S: Depression or dosa can always find something to latch onto:) As you suggest it goes from one story-line to another....always looking for fuel. What is the bad kamma? Thinking with dosa and depression about your family difficulties, work and so on is not bad kamma. It is the accumulation of more dosa on account of stories about what has been seen, heard and so on. This is what will lead to more bad kamma in future. We dig our own graves of bad kamma by not seeing the truth of the present realities. Yes, it takes strength and courage to face up to these truths. .... >but Buddhism has helped me to understand > that nothing is forever and everything is just temporary and not > permanent...well, i hope so...so when you don't hear from me anymore > or that i have unsubscribed from here, then expect the worst scenario. .... S: Please keep writing to us, Alice. You really have a lot to contribute and I enjoy your reflections a lot. As I’ve said to others, I’ll be away for a few weeks so any replies of mine are likely to be delayed. Hopefully, other members, will respond to you. Please tell us if you’re having a tough spell anytime. .... > > I kept telling my friend, who knows about my problem that i am facing > rite now, (which is beyond & out of my control) that i wanted to > commit suicide to escape this suffering that i am facing rite now and > he advised me not to, and to watch "Constantine" by Keenanu Reavees, > saying that if i were to do so, i won't be re-incarnated and what is > keeping from doing that, is in my next life, it would be worse than > this life, that i am having now...so again don't worry, as i do not > want to suffer anymore sufferings in the future, but just to accept > this suffering in this life, no matter how bad it is going to > be...and as for me, this life of mine has ended, before it has even > began. ... S: Your friend gave you good advice. Most of what we think of as suffering in this life – the unpleasant mental feelings – are ‘self’-inflicted. For example, when there is metta or dana or reflection on the teachings, there is no unpleasant feeling at all. Why do we have unpleasant feelings? Because of attachment to self and pleasant feelings. Also, remember that life only ever lasts a moment. All the past difficulties have gone....they’re just an idea or fantasy now. By developing awareness, there is less and less clinging and aversion to what was experienced in the past and what will be experienced in the future. > AliceInAlwaysInOptimisticLand ... S: I’d like to see AliceInRealisticLand:)) I’ll greatly look forward to chatting more to you on my return, Alice. Metta, Sarah p.s there were a lot of good reminders in the section on kamma in your post #47405. ‘Kamma is always just... – it is never angry or pleased,.... it is simply the law of cause and effect’ also, I like this one ‘we are foolish if we grow angry and blame it when it burns us because we have made a mistake.’ Oh and in your post #47470, ‘but for a seed to sprout, certain auxiliary causes such, as soil, rain etc are required. In the same way for a Kamma to produce an effect, several auxiliary causes such as circumstances, surroundings etc are required....’ I think the reflections on kamma are always very beneficital. ==================================== 47824 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman {and Howard and Jon} - You wrote to Jon: > Hi Jon, > > >Jon: When I said the whole Tipitaka I meant of course as much of > >the Tipitaka as we know. But yes, the study of the Tipitaka is a > >life-time job, but then so is the development of insight, and it is > >for the purpose of the latter that the former is done. > > > > Herman: Just out of interest, Jon, in this life-time of you purposefully > studying the Tipitaka (practice), is there ever any > unwholesomeness? > > Follow your own advice, Jon, and put the books down. > Tep: Just for record keeping purposes the following is what Jon wrote to Howard in his message # 47479 : Jon: "To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature." "Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are." Tep: I shall be glad to hear what Jon might say about the inconsistency that Herman has discovered. Warm regards, Tep ========= 47825 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 447 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 12 puggalas or 12 individuals there are 8 ariya puggalas or 8 pure individuals and 4 puthujana puggalas or 4 heavily-defiled individuals. Ariya puggalas have been explained in the previous posts. There are 4 puthujana puggala or 4 heavily-defiled individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) 4. duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destination, rootless individual where many likesa arise) 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (explained in the previous post) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala This individual is who was born with dvihetuka patisandhi citta. This means that when he or she was born the patisandhi citta that arose just had alobha root or non-attachment root and adosa root or non- aversion root. There is no amoha or panna as a root. So they are called dvihetuka puggala. These individuals are all puthujana puggala like tihetuka. But they do not have the potential that will help developing of jhaana or magga or phala naana in thier current life however hard they are trying. This is the main difference between dvihetuka and tihetuka puggala. But if dvihetuka puggalas try enough they will be equipped with the necessary base for arising of jhaana or magga or phala in next lives but not in this current life. The cittas that can arise in these dvihetuka puthujana puggala are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas ( 7 akusala origin and 8 kusala origin) c) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (panca and mano dvara-avajjana cittas) d) 8 mahakusala cittas e) 4 mahavipaka cittas (4 mahavipaaka with naana do not arise) ---- 41 cittas Other cittas cannot arise in these dvihetuka puthujana puggala. If arise then the thaana or place where that citta arise is no more dvihetuka puthujana puggala. Again these individuals are nothing but just a combination of namakkhandhas and rupakkhandha. There is no self, no man, no woman, no human being, no deva that exist as ultimate realities. When everything is investigated to ultimate level there are just citta or cetasika or ruupa or nibbana. Nothing more than that. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very valuable. 47826 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:43am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 03 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 15 contemplations are on breathing matters. There are another set of 15 contemplations on body and they are on bodily postures. This contemplation on posture is just for description and what actually perceiving is ruupas that arise from these conventionally speaking postures. So it is not that right to contemplate 'I am walking' 'I am standing' 'I am sitting' ' I am lying flat'. What have to be contemplated are ruupas that arise when walking, when standing, when sitting, and when lying flat. If there is enough concentration then ruupas that arise in our physical body can clearly be seen with our mind-eye or we can clearly perceive those ruupas that arise when we are 'walking' 'standing' 'sitting' and 'lying down'. These 4 postures are major postures and they are like 4 horses that draw the cart. From our first consciousness in a day to the last in that day there we will have been in these 4 different postures. The first 15 contemplations are all related to breathing apparatus of our physical body. The contemplations do not go for others but at body that is physical body of ours. When we breathe there arise ruupas and those ruupas are contemplated. As breathing is universal it is described first. As soon as wake up, breathing should be the first place to contemplate before we do any other activities. From the 1st consciousness to the last consciousness just before go into sleep there are many acitvities of breathing. It is totally impossible to note all breathing related matters. So 4 postures are then described. There are 15 contemplations on postures. 1. contemplation on walking (going) 2. contemplation on standing 3. contemplation on sitting 4. contemplation on lying down When contemplate on walking there will be different ruupas that arise at physical body and they are contemplated as they arise. Likewise there are ruupas that arise when standing, sitting, and lying. Another 4 contemplations are 1. contemplation on others' walking 2. contemplation on others' standing 3. contemplation on others' sitting 4. contemplation on others' lying down. The practitioner perceives that there would be ruupas arising when other individuals are walking, standing, sitting, and lying down. The third set of 4 contemplations is contemplation on both internal (self) and external (others)activities where ruupas would arise and pass away. So there are 12 contemplations on body posture. There are 3 contemplation on implications of posture. They are 1. contemplation on origination of posture 2. contemplation on dissolution of posture 3. contemplation on both origination and dissolution Just before setting a posture which has not arisen there always is a naama and this is wish to move into that posture. Because of this there arise consciousness-born ruupas along the movements that generate into a new posture. These are the origination. The practitioner sometimes perceives that when these originating things are not there or they pass away then there is dissolution. Sometimes both origination and dissolution are perceived that so and so posture happen in relation with these origination and dissolution. This is just a description. Real practitioner will know these while intelligent readers will never perceive these without actual contemplations when they are in real-sensed activities in their daily life. So there are 15 contemplations on breathing and 15 contemplations on body posture. So far there have been discussed 30 contemplations on body. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47827 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, > > I found it!! Sorry - gave you all a wrong steer - I've found what > I was looking for in the Majjhima Nikaya 115.15 The Many Kinds of > Elements: > > "He understands: 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman > could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is no > such possibility.' [1090] And he understands: 'It is possible > that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - > there is such a possibility'. He understands 'It is impossible, it > cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... that > a woman could occupy the position of Sakka ... that a woman could > occupy the position of Maara ... that a woman could occupy the > position of Brahmaa - there is no such possibility.' And he > understands: 'It is possible that a man might be a Wheel-turning > Monarch ... that a man might occupy the position of Sakka ... that a > man might occupy the position of Maara ... that a man might occupy > the position of Brahmaa - there is such a possibility.' > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation note: 1090 - This statement asserts only > that a Fully Enlightened Buddha always has the male sex, but does > not deny that a person who is now a woman may become a Fully > Enlightened Buddha in the future. To do so, however, at an earlier > point she will have had to be reborn as a man. > > metta and peace, > Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, A good research. So there are 5 positions that itthiya cannot take. Itthiyo = one female being Itthiya = 2 or more female beings devii are itthiya but devii are not women. :-) These 5 positions are 1. Sammasambuddha (Fully Self-Enlightened One ) 2. Cakkavatta Raaja ( Wheel-turning Monarch ) 3. Sakka Raaja ( King of Taavatimsaa ) 4. Maara Raaja ( King of Maara ) 5. Brahmaa ( King of beings ) Before the start of the journey to achievement at these positions, beings have to be puurisa or male beings. Before that point they may be male or female or neither-male-nor-female beings. The first four beings or individuals are clearly male. Because all of these 4 positions are in the sensuous planes. But the last position Brahmaa are not beings in sensuous planes. So it is hard to tell whether they are male or female. To be exact they do not possess any sex characters. Form-wise they are in the form of male beings in human realm or deva realms. Brahmaas are very pure. They are free of sex. Human beings are almost always involved in sex. One a being cling to sex then he or she is bound to be reborn in sensuous plane and they will not be reborn in brahmaa realms. Those female beings who want to become a male being can fulfil the perfections to become a male being. Once I met a man. He had been a female being in his previous life. After that female life he was reborn in this world as a male being. He was a genuine male being. But he had some characters that normally have in female beings. He did not always say he had been a female being in his past life. But on some occasions when he talked to Venerable monks he unintentionally told that he has been a female being. He fulfiled all his life keeping the 3rd precept very very purely. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47828 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Thank you for your reply to my question about sati. > > Htoo: > > PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in > > poor conditions. > > Tep : > Developing compassion(karuna) is a valuable way to subdue hatred > for any person-- poor or rich, young or old, needing help or not needing > help. > > "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should develop > compassion for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual > should be subdued." [AN V.161] > > Tep: But there are also great benefits beyond subduing hatred! > > "These four -- love, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity -- are > also known as the boundless states (appamañña), because, in their > perfection and their true nature, they should not be narrowed by any > limitation as to the range of beings towards whom they are extended. > They should be non-exclusive and impartial, not bound by selective > preferences or prejudices. A mind that has attained to that > boundlessness of the Brahma-viharas will not harbor any national, > racial, religious or class hatred. ["The Four Sublime States > Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and > Equanimity" by Nyanaponika Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 6] > > Tep: And here is how to pervade karuna to all beings : > > "Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart > filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth > direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire > world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, > abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from > distress." [DN 13] With Karuna, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your preaching on Karunaa Dhamma. 'Poor' that I used is for 'lack of something'. It is not for 'rich versus poor' of wealth. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Metta and Upekkha are more general and they arise with each and every beautiful consciousness whereas 'kuruna' and 'mudita' have limitation. Karuna and mudita do not arise with each and every beautiful consciousness. 47829 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... christine_fo... Dear Htoo, Thank you for your additional comments and information. I, personally, have not yet met anyone who says they remember a past life - though I have heard about several. Very interesting. with metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I found it!! Sorry - gave you all a wrong steer - I've found > what > > I was looking for in the Majjhima Nikaya 115.15 The Many Kinds of > > Elements: > > > > "He understands: 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman > > could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is no > > such possibility.' [1090] And he understands: 'It is possible > > that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - > > there is such a possibility'. He understands 'It is impossible, it > > cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... > that > > a woman could occupy the position of Sakka ... that a woman could > > occupy the position of Maara ... that a woman could occupy the > > position of Brahmaa - there is no such possibility.' And he > > understands: 'It is possible that a man might be a Wheel- turning > > Monarch ... that a man might occupy the position of Sakka ... that > a > > man might occupy the position of Maara ... that a man might occupy > > the position of Brahmaa - there is such a possibility.' > > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation note: 1090 - This statement asserts > only > > that a Fully Enlightened Buddha always has the male sex, but does > > not deny that a person who is now a woman may become a Fully > > Enlightened Buddha in the future. To do so, however, at an earlier > > point she will have had to be reborn as a man. > > > > metta and peace, > > Chris > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Dear Christine, > > A good research. So there are 5 positions that itthiya cannot take. > > Itthiyo = one female being > Itthiya = 2 or more female beings > > devii are itthiya but devii are not women. :-) > > These 5 positions are > > 1. Sammasambuddha (Fully Self-Enlightened One ) > 2. Cakkavatta Raaja ( Wheel-turning Monarch ) > 3. Sakka Raaja ( King of Taavatimsaa ) > 4. Maara Raaja ( King of Maara ) > 5. Brahmaa ( King of beings ) > > Before the start of the journey to achievement at these positions, > beings have to be puurisa or male beings. Before that point they > may be male or female or neither-male-nor-female beings. > > The first four beings or individuals are clearly male. Because all of > these 4 positions are in the sensuous planes. > > But the last position Brahmaa are not beings in sensuous planes. > > So it is hard to tell whether they are male or female. To be exact > they do not possess any sex characters. Form-wise they are in the > form of male beings in human realm or deva realms. > > Brahmaas are very pure. They are free of sex. > > Human beings are almost always involved in sex. One a being cling to > sex then he or she is bound to be reborn in sensuous plane and they > will not be reborn in brahmaa realms. > > Those female beings who want to become a male being can fulfil the > perfections to become a male being. > > Once I met a man. He had been a female being in his previous life. > After that female life he was reborn in this world as a male being. > > He was a genuine male being. But he had some characters that normally > have in female beings. He did not always say he had been a female > being in his past life. > > But on some occasions when he talked to Venerable monks he > unintentionally told that he has been a female being. > > He fulfiled all his life keeping the 3rd precept very very purely. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47830 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry (Tep, Howard & all), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: > the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". > > Hi Sarah, > > I prefer the description consciousness is a reflection of an object as > experience; in Howard's lingo "presencing". .... S: I think that to really understand the distinction between nama and rupa, we have to understand that nama is the dhamma which can experience an object, whereas rupa cannot experience anything. Seeing is not just the ‘presencing’ or reflection of visible object. It is the experiencing of visible object. ... >However, this only applies > to 5-door consciousness or a wisdom consciousness. In no way does a > consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness rooted in > greed is the experience of greed, not some object. I believe that is > standard satipatthana. ... S: Not as I understand it:). As the sutta Tep aptly quoted (DN22)indicated, craving or greed arises when there is an attractive and alluring object of any kind perceived. So there can be greed about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or thought about. Or there can be greed about the experiencing of those objects or to previous attachment and pleasant feeling about them. It’s really important to distinguish the difference between namas and rupas and between objects which are experienced and the cittas and cetasikas which experience, I believe. .... > As for the object of greed, a careful reading of the 'craving' section > on dependent origination in Vism. (Vism.XII,233 fol.) shows that craving > does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as > decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. .... S: XV11, 233f --This conveniently starts off with an emphasis on the point Tep and I were making, I think: “..Six kinds of craving are shown in the analysis of this clause [in the Vibhanga] as ‘visible-data craving, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, and mental-data craving (Vbg1360,called after their objects, as a son is called after his father ‘banker’s son’, ‘brahman’s son’...... When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called craving for sense desires....’ So there has to be an object, but the feeling is what we mind so much about, on account of what is experienced: ‘A man in pain for pleasure longs And finding pleasure, longs for more..’ Also, without natural decisive support condition, no craving: ‘Though feeling is condition, still Without inherent tendency No craving can arise.....’ There are always many conditioning factors at work, Larry. ‘Nor from a single cause arise One fruit or many, nor one fruit from many; ‘Tis helpful, though, to utilize One cause and fruit as representative.’ (Sammohavinodani, Classification of the Structure of Conditions). .... S: From U Narada’s ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’, an introduction of the Patthana: Under object condition: ‘The Conditioning States. These are the six kinds of objects: 1)visible object, 2) sound, 3)odour, 4)taste, 5)tangible object consisting of hardness, heat and motion, 6)cognizable object consisting of the remaining 21 states of materiality, 89 consciousnesses, 52 mental factors, Nibbana and concept.... ‘So, in this object condition there is no state that cannot be an object of consciousness and mental factors. This object condition pervades the teaching in the Pali canon.... ‘The Conditioned States. These are consciousness and mental factors. Cosnciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise without them. Even during sleep, the life-continuum takes the object which was taken in the dying process of the previous existence.....’ ‘Materiality is never a conditioned state of object condition because it cannot take and know objects......They are simply material states. That is why it is expounded in Dhs that ‘All matter (form) is that which is void of taking objects (ideas).’ ‘ .... >It is my contention > that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of > desire. .... S: There cannot be desire for visible object and feeling at the same time. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas (which always includes feeling as you know), can only ever have one object – a nama, a rupa or a concept. .... >We can say dependent on contact feeling arises and dependent on > feeling, craving; but what I am trying to get at is what we "think of" > as the object of desire, what we say we want or like, is a > conceptualization of the formation of visible object, feeling, latent > tendency and probably many other factors as well. ... S: I think there is some confusion here. Yes, I agree that commonly it is an idea about visible object that we crave for example. It’s also very commonly the pleasant feeling or idea of pleasant feeling associated with some experience. We cling so much to our feelings. The latent tendencies and decisive support condition lead to such clinging occurring. Other factors such as contact and perception are very important too. If there were no marking of the objects, no such craving would occur. Remember that such mental factors accompany the consciousness which experiences the object such as visible object, concept about it or recalled pleasant feeling. ... > It is good to know > that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is > fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like arises > conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes > something is logic, not reality. ... S: Whether it is a reality or a concept, every citta experiences ‘something’. Citta cannot arise to perform its function without arammanupaccaya. Even jhana cittas experience an object (usually a concept) and lokuttara cittas experience nibbana. Like always likes something, even if it’s just as figment of one’s imagination:). Larry, I hope others like Tep, Howard or anyone else, will continue this discussion with you. It won’t surprise me at all if it’s still ‘alive’ when I return. I think there are several important points to clarify here .I’ll look forward to reading any further discussions. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, thank you for your comments on this thread too. There is some difference, but I think the important point which we both agree on is that when there’s awareness, it’s aware of seeing, for example, which has the characteristic of ‘experiencing’ v.o. or of v.o itself, for example, which has the characteristic of just that which is seen at that instant. I don’t personally have any difficulty with the expression ‘ consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object’, but I appreciate and understand why you do. I’m glad the extra commentary notes helped. Seeing and v.o. are both dhammas with their own particular characteristics, functions, proximate causes and so on as I know you know. Yes, I also think the expression about ‘licking honey from a razor’s edge’ is perfect to describe grasping. If I had time, I’d quote a longer one from Sammohavinodani on this – maybe someone else will. ========================= 47831 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your additional comments and information. I, personally, have not yet met anyone who says they remember a past life - though I have heard about several. Very interesting. with metta, Christine -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, There are many people who remember a few past lives in Myanmar. At least these strange people remember their immediate past life. Some remember 2 or 3 past lives. I have personally met at least 3 people. They were just ordinary people and they were not cheating to anyone. One of them was a man. He used to talk that he had been so and so person. When he grew up enough to wander around the country he went there where he had been a human being. He met his past-life's wife who was then in the age of his grandmother. Another one is a woman. She remembers that she had been a man. She has a birth mark of ugly dimple like scar on one of her thighs. She did not remember when she was young. But once she arrived at a place where a soldier was killed with a spear. That soldier was her and she was reborn in her current life. She just suddenly remember that she was a soldier and killed with a spear at his thigh. There was also a man. He was a rich man. He almost always behaved like a woman when he spoke. I mean behaviour. But his behaviour is totally different from gay's behaviour. He was a genuine male. But there were some female characters. He had been a woman in his past life and wished to become a male being. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47832 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:08pm Subject: The Noble 8-Fold Way ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this Supreme Noble Eightfold Way ? These eight things, friends, when developed and cultivated lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their ultimate destination, have Nibbana as their final goal! What eight? Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration Friends, true knowledge is initiating all advantageous states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing coming after! For a clever person, who has arrived at such true knowledge, right view emerges. For one of right view, right motivation improves. For one of right motivation, right speech evolves. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood comes into being. For one of right livelihood, right effort arises. For one of right effort, right awareness appears. For one of right awareness & mindfulness, right concentration develops & gradually achieves perfection! Friends, this is the sign and precursor for arising of the sun: dawn! So too, friends, for a person, this is the sign and precursor for the arising of the Noble 8-fold Way, that is, Good & Noble Friendship...!!! When a person has a Good Noble Friend, it is to be expected that he will develop, cultivate and complete this sublime Noble 8-fold Way... And how does a person, who has a good friend develop & cultivate this Noble 8-fold Way? Here, friends, a person develops right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness, and right concentration, which has as their final goal the complete elimination of greed, the eradication of hate, and the luminous ceasing of all ignorance... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha on the Way. SN V (56) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html#Magga _________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47833 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.9 : DOCTRINE OF REBIRTH (1) Unsatisfied desire for existence and sensual pleasures is the cause of rebirth. Kamma necessarily leads to rebirth. Past Kamma conditions the present birth, and present Kamma, in combination with past Kamma, the future. The present is the offspring of the past, and becomes, in its turn, the parent of the future. The present needs no proof. The past is based on memory and reports, and the future on forethought and inferences. REBIRTH - THE LIVING PROOF The doctrine of rebirth forms a fundamental principle in Buddhism. However the belief in rebirth is not confined to Buddhism; it also found in other countries, in other religions and even among the teaching of some great philosophers and contemplatives. The greatest authority on rebirth is the Buddha. "With clairvoyant vision, purified and supernormal, I perceived beings disappearing from one state of existence and re-appearing in another. I beheld the base and the noble, the beautiful and the ugly, the happy and the miserable, passing according to their deeds." There was no reason for the Buddha to tell an untruth to deceive His followers. Following His instructions His disciples also developed this retro- cognitive knowledge and were able to read their past lives to a great extent. The development of this supernormal vision is not restricted only to the Buddha and His disciples. Any person, whether Buddhist or not, could possess this faculty. Some Indian Rishis, even before the advent of the Buddha, developed such powers as clairaudience, clairvoyance, thought reading, and so forth. Pythagoras and Plato could remember their previous birth. There are also some persons who, according to the laws of association, spontaneously develop the memory of their past birth and remember fragments of theirprevious lives. A few well-attested cases are reported from Burma, India, Germany, England, etc. In hypnotic states some can relate experiences of their past lives; while a few others, like Edgar Casey of America, were able not only to read the past lives of others but also to heal diseases. In this world there arise Perfect Ones like the Buddhas, highly developed personalities. Could they evolve suddenly? Could they be the products of a single existence? How are we to account for colossal characters like Confucius, Pamini, Homer and Plato, men of genius like Kalidasa, Shakespeare, infant prodigies like Ramanujan, Pascal, Mozart, Beethoven, Raphael, and others, and little children conversant with different languages and certain subjects which they had never learnt in their present life?' Heredity alone cannot account for them, "else their ancestry would disclose it, their posterity, even greater than themselves, demonstrate it." Could they arise to such lofty heights if they had not lived such noble lives and gained similar experiences in the past? Is it by mere chance that they are born of those particular parents and placed under those favourable circumstances? The theory of heredity should be supplemented by the doctrine of Kamma and rebirth for an adequate explanation of these puzzling problems. Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life is the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? If one believes in the present and in future, it is quite logical to believe in the past. It is possible but not easy for us to actually verify our past lives. The nature of our mind is such that is does not allow most people the recollection of their previous lives. Our minds are overpowered by the five hindrances: sensual desire, ill will, sloth, restlessness and doubt. Thus our vision is earth-bound and we cannot visualize rebirth. Just as a mirror does not reflect an image when it is covered with dirt and we cannot see the star during the daytime, it does not mean they are not there, but because they are outshone by the sunlight. THE CAUSE OF REBIRTH In short, Kamma, which is rooted in Ignorance, is the cause of birth and death. As long as this Kammic force survives there is rebirth. This process of becoming is fully explained in the Paticca Samuppada - Dependent Arising or Dependent Origination. It should be understood that Paticca Samuppada is only a discourse on Samsara or the process of birth and death and not a theory of the evolution of the world from primordial matter. It deals with the cause of rebirth and suffering, but it does not attempt to show the absolute origin of life. Ignorance - Avijja, of the Four Noble Truths is the first link or cause of the wheel of life. It clouds all right understanding. Dependent on Ignorance arise volitional activities (Sankhara). Moral and immoral activities, whether good or bad, which are rooted in ignorance, tend to prolong wandering in Samsara. Nevertheless, good actions are essential to get rid of the ills of this ocean of life. Dependent on Volitional Activities arises Re-linking Consciousness - Vinnana. This links the past with the present. Simultaneous with the arising of Re-linking Consciousness there come into being Mind and Matter - Nama and Rupa. The Six Senses - Salayatana, are the inevitable consequences of Mind and Matter. Because of the Six Senses Contact - Phassa sets in. Contact leads to Sensations - vedana. Dependent on Sensations arises Craving - Tanha. Craving produces Attachment - Upadana. Attachment conditions Kamma-Bhava, which in its turn determines future Birth - Jati. Old Age and Death - Jara - Marana are the inevitable consequences of birth. If, on account of a cause, an effect comes to be, then if the cause ceases, the effect also must cease. The complete cessation of Ignorance leads to the cessation of birth and death. The above process of cause and effect continues ad infinitum. The beginning of this process cannot be determined, as it is impossible to say whence this life-flux was encompassed by ignorance. But when this ignorance is turned into knowledge and the life-flux is transmuted to Nibbana Dhatu, then the end of the life process or Samsara comes about. MODES OF BIRTH AND DEATH Buddhism assesses death to the following four causes:- 1. The exhaustion of the force of Reproductive Kamma that gives rise to the birth - Kammakkhaya. As a rule, the thought, volition, or desire, which is extremely strong during lifetime, becomes predominant at the point of death and conditions the subsequent birth. In this last thought-moment is present a special potentiality. When the potential energy of this Reproductive Kamma is exhausted, the corporealised, the life force, cease even before the approach of old age. 2. The expiration of the life-term - Ayukkhaya. What are commonly understood to be natural deaths due to old age may be classed under this category. There are various planes of existence according to Buddhism, and to each plane is naturally assigned a definite age-limit. Irrespective of the Kammic force that has yet to run, one must, however,succumb to death when the maximum age-limit is reached. It may also be said that if the force is extremely powerful, the Kammic energy re-materialises itself on the same plane or in some higher realm as in the case of the Devas. 3. The simultaneous exhaustion of the Reproductive Kammic energy and the expiration of the life-term - Ubhayakkhaya. 4. The action of a stronger Kamma - Upacechdaka that suddenly cuts off the power of the Reproductive Kamma before the expiry of the life-term. The first three types of deaths are collectively called Kalamarana (timely death) and the last one is known as Akalamarana (untimely death). An oil lamp, for instance, may get extinguished owing to any of the following four causes:- the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of oil, simultaneous exhaustion of both wick and oil, and some extraneous cause like a gust of wind. The death of a person may similarly be caused by the above-mentioned four ways. Questions 1. What is the cause of Rebirth? 2. What are the causes of Death? Answers (Module 2.8) 1. Can we change our kamma? Yes, if one apply effort to overcome the evil results of kamma with positive energy. eg. An unfavourable situation (such as a harsh speech) arises and a normal reaction is the rising of anger. But with some effort not to let the anger turn into further evil action, one basically changed the creation of a potential evil kamma. But once an evil kamma has been created, such as the anger that has arises, one basically cannot change the result of that kamma unless there is a Counteractive Kamma which suppresses or modifies the result of the reproductive Kamma, or a stronger Destructive Kamma, which may substitutes with its own resultants. 2. What other lessons that we can learned from the Law of Kamma? a. Deed or Action. Kamma is measured by our deeds - it is a performance based and not position. One must work to earn what is favourable and not depend on fate or external assistance. Buddhism is a religion to live and not to believe. b. Fear only our action. The most harmful things that can happen unto us are our own (bad) action since others kamma cannot harm us unless we let it happen. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- --- End forwarded message --- 47834 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi RobertK and (Agrios), > > Sorry to be talking about you in your absence, Agrios :-) Hi Herman, don't worry, I am here :-) It boils to the question for me if mental sankharas are kamma triggered. In other words, if there is cetana involved. Old or new. I can't say at this point of practice. I can't say there are sankharas, as I only am aware of triggered by them vinnanas. I can speculate, that idea of Self having this experience is developing and it actualizes itself at point of vinnana. metta, Agrios. 47835 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion /Sarah's Good Preaching buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah {and Larry} - I like your summary on tanha (craving) and conditioning states a lot. We should reflect on this subject often. Sarah's Summary : Craving ----------- # Craving or greed arises when there is an attractive andalluring object of any kind perceived. # So there can be greed about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or thought about. Or there can be greed about the experiencing of those objects or to previous attachment and pleasant feeling about them. # Craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. Object Conditions and Conditioned States -------------------------------------------------------------- # `The Conditioning States. These are the six kinds of objects: 1)visible object, 2) sound, 3)odour, 4)taste, 5)tangible object consisting of hardness, heat and motion, 6)cognizable object consisting of the remaining 21 states of materiality, 89 consciousnesses, 52 mental factors, Nibbana and concept.... # `The Conditioned States. These are consciousness and mental factors. Consciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise without them. Even during sleep, the life-continuum takes the object which was taken in the dying process of the previous existence.....' Tep: Htoo would say that Sarah had done a good preaching. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Larry (Tep, Howard & all), (snipped) > > Yes, I also think the expression about `licking honey from a razor's edge' > is perfect to describe grasping. If I had time, I'd quote a longer one > from Sammohavinodani on this – maybe someone else will. > ========================= 47836 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: 60 audio talks on suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi philofillet Hi Christine Thanks for this. I'd much rather listen than read these days, for some reason. Last night I listened to B.Bodhi's talk on the sutta on the removal of distracting thoughts, mn 20, that Nina wrote on. I thought it was quite charming and really helpful the way he kind of giggles at the notion of being attracted to hair, teeth, nails etc as though it were the silliest thing in the world, which it is when you get down to it. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > Here is a link to approximately 60 digital audio talks (windows media > player required) by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya. 47837 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - If you are inclined to send an email to Han Tun, this is his email address: hantun1@.... Below is his reply to your email. Warm regards, Tep ======== Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "han tun" View Contact Details Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 To: "Tep Sastri" Thank you very much to you and Nina. Han Tun ------------------------------------ --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Han - > > I am forwarding Nina's reply to your comment below. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======== > --- End forwarded message --- > ------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 17-07-2005 14:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > [Han: "kla" in niklesa is a conjunct consonant like "kkha" in bhikkhu. It is > > a very rare conjunct consonant and I cannot find the word niklesa in the > > dictionaries.] > N: ni+ noun means: without (PED at end of ni prefix). > Kilesa or klesa: defilement, in PED. > NIna. 47838 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) htootintnaing Dear Balancing Life, Could you please clarify these matters? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "balancing_life" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" > wrote: > --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman > wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.9 : DOCTRINE OF REBIRTH (1) Unsatisfied desire for existence and sensual pleasures is the cause of rebirth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is unsatisfied desire here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kamma necessarily leads to rebirth. Past Kamma conditions the present birth, and present Kamma, in combination with past Kamma, the future. The present is the offspring of the past, and becomes, in its turn, the parent of the future. The present needs no proof. The past is based on memory and reports, and the future on forethought and inferences. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are fine and agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REBIRTH - THE LIVING PROOF The doctrine of rebirth forms a fundamental principle in Buddhism. However the belief in rebirth is not confined to Buddhism; it also found in other countries, in other religions and even among the teaching of some great philosophers and contemplatives. The greatest authority on rebirth is the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually it is 'patisandhii' rahter than rebirth. Pati means 'again' and 'sandhii' means linking. So it is 'relinking' rather than rebirth. But rebirth is generally accepted by Buddhists who speak English. However there needs understanding. Birth, rebirth, rebirth and so on may make the idea that there is a soul and it is reborn with a body as birth. But this is not the case. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "With clairvoyant vision, purified and supernormal, I perceived beings disappearing from one state of existence and re-appearing in another. I beheld the base and the noble, the beautiful and the ugly, the happy and the miserable, passing according to their deeds." There was no reason for the Buddha to tell an untruth to deceive His followers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is one of the powers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Following His instructions His disciples also developed this retro- cognitive knowledge and were able to read their past lives to a great extent. The development of this supernormal vision is not restricted only to the Buddha and His disciples. Any person, whether Buddhist or not, could possess this faculty. Some Indian Rishis, even before the advent of the Buddha, developed such powers as clairaudience, clairvoyance, thought reading, and so forth. Pythagoras and Plato could remember their previous birth. There are also some persons who, according to the laws of association, spontaneously develop the memory of their past birth and remember fragments of theirprevious lives. A few well-attested cases are reported from Burma, India, Germany, England, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It is called 'jaatissara naana' or 'knowledge of rebirths'. This knowledge is not a power unlike those of jhaanalaabhii who have pubbenivaasa naana or 'the power of recollection of past lives'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In hypnotic states some can relate experiences of their past lives; while a few others, like Edgar Casey of America, were able not only to read the past lives of others but also to heal diseases. In this world there arise Perfect Ones like the Buddhas, highly developed personalities. Could they evolve suddenly? Could they be the products of a single existence? How are we to account for colossal characters like Confucius, Pamini, Homer and Plato, men of genius like Kalidasa, Shakespeare, infant prodigies like Ramanujan, Pascal, Mozart, Beethoven, Raphael, and others, and little children conversant with different languages and certain subjects which they had never learnt in their present life?' Heredity alone cannot account for them, "else their ancestry would disclose it, their posterity, even greater than themselves, demonstrate it." Could they arise to such lofty heights if they had not lived such noble lives and gained similar experiences in the past? Is it by mere chance that they are born of those particular parents and placed under those favourable circumstances? The theory of heredity should be supplemented by the doctrine of Kamma and rebirth for an adequate explanation of these puzzling problems. Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life is the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Buddhists need not to be told this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If one believes in the present and in future, it is quite logical to believe in the past. It is possible but not easy for us to actually verify our past lives. The nature of our mind is such that is does not allow most people the recollection of their previous lives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you remember what was your lunch 1000 days ago? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Our minds are overpowered by the five hindrances: sensual desire, ill will, sloth, restlessness and doubt. Thus our vision is earth-bound and we cannot visualize rebirth. Just as a mirror does not reflect an image when it is covered with dirt and we cannot see the star during the daytime, it does not mean they are not there, but because they are outshone by the sunlight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree this. When the mirror is clear then there is a clear reflections. When the mirror of mind is very clear there do have shades in that mirror and they can clearly be seen. Just try it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THE CAUSE OF REBIRTH In short, Kamma, which is rooted in Ignorance, is the cause of birth and death. As long as this Kammic force survives there is rebirth. This process of becoming is fully explained in the Paticca Samuppada - Dependent Arising or Dependent Origination. It should be understood that Paticca Samuppada is only a discourse on Samsara or the process of birth and death and not a theory of the evolution of the world from primordial matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But people misused it. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It deals with the cause of rebirth and suffering, but it does not attempt to show the absolute origin of life. Ignorance - Avijja, of the Four Noble Truths is the first link or cause of the wheel of life. It clouds all right understanding. Dependent on Ignorance arise volitional activities (Sankhara). Moral and immoral activities, whether good or bad, which are rooted in ignorance, tend to prolong wandering in Samsara. Nevertheless, good actions are essential to get rid of the ills of this ocean of life. Dependent on Volitional Activities arises Re-linking Consciousness - Vinnana. This links the past with the present. Simultaneous with the arising of Re-linking Consciousness there come into being Mind and Matter - Nama and Rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like 'simultaneous' here whatever it is right or wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Six Senses - Salayatana, are the inevitable consequences of Mind and Matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But not simultaneous at birth. At birth there is just only 2 ayatana among salayatana or 6 ayatana. They are kaayaayatana and manaayatana or body-sense-base and mind-sense-base. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Because of the Six Senses Contact - Phassa sets in. Contact leads to Sensations - vedana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine if vedana is translated as sensation. But not that right. Because sensations are more than vedana and vedana is more than sensation. Example is that agressiveness is not a sensation but vedana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dependent on Sensations arises Craving - Tanha. Craving produces Attachment - Upadana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Wording is important. Upadana is usually translated as 'clinging'. It is grasping. It has the character of firm gripping unlike just attachment. On the other hand attachment is used for lobha cetasika. Not for upadaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment conditions Kamma-Bhava, which in its turn determines future Birth - Jati. Old Age and Death - Jara - Marana are the inevitable consequences of birth. If, on account of a cause, an effect comes to be, then if the cause ceases, the effect also must cease. The complete cessation of Ignorance leads to the cessation of birth and death. The above process of cause and effect continues ad infinitum. The beginning of this process cannot be determined, as it is impossible to say whence this life-flux was encompassed by ignorance. But when this ignorance is turned into knowledge and the life-flux is transmuted to Nibbana Dhatu, then the end of the life process or Samsara comes about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MODES OF BIRTH AND DEATH Buddhism assesses death to the following four causes:- 1. The exhaustion of the force of Reproductive Kamma that gives rise to the birth - Kammakkhaya. As a rule, the thought, volition, or desire, which is extremely strong during lifetime, becomes predominant at the point of death and conditions the subsequent birth. In this last thought-moment is present a special potentiality. When the potential energy of this Reproductive Kamma is exhausted, the corporealised, the life force, cease even before the approach of old age. 2. The expiration of the life-term - Ayukkhaya. What are commonly understood to be natural deaths due to old age may be classed under this category. There are various planes of existence according to Buddhism, and to each plane is naturally assigned a definite age-limit. Irrespective of the Kammic force that has yet to run, one must, however,succumb to death when the maximum age-limit is reached. It may also be said that if the force is extremely powerful, the Kammic energy re-materialises itself on the same plane or in some higher realm as in the case of the Devas. 3. The simultaneous exhaustion of the Reproductive Kammic energy and the expiration of the life-term - Ubhayakkhaya. 4. The action of a stronger Kamma - Upacechdaka that suddenly cuts off the power of the Reproductive Kamma before the expiry of the life-term. The first three types of deaths are collectively called Kalamarana (timely death) and the last one is known as Akalamarana (untimely death). An oil lamp, for instance, may get extinguished owing to any of the following four causes:- the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of oil, simultaneous exhaustion of both wick and oil, and some extraneous cause like a gust of wind. The death of a person may similarly be caused by the above-mentioned four ways. Questions 1. What is the cause of Rebirth? 2. What are the causes of Death? Answers (Module 2.8) 1. Can we change our kamma? Yes, if one apply effort to overcome the evil results of kamma with positive energy. eg. An unfavourable situation (such as a harsh speech) arises and a normal reaction is the rising of anger. But with some effort not to let the anger turn into further evil action, one basically changed the creation of a potential evil kamma. But once an evil kamma has been created, such as the anger that has arises, one basically cannot change the result of that kamma unless there is a Counteractive Kamma which suppresses or modifies the result of the reproductive Kamma, or a stronger Destructive Kamma, which may substitutes with its own resultants. 2. What other lessons that we can learned from the Law of Kamma? a. Deed or Action. Kamma is measured by our deeds - it is a performance based and not position. One must work to earn what is favourable and not depend on fate or external assistance. Buddhism is a religion to live and not to believe. b. Fear only our action. The most harmful things that can happen unto us are our own (bad) action since others kamma cannot harm us unless we let it happen. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hoping that Balancing Life is replying. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47839 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:13am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 04 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 15 contemplations are on breathing matters and 15 contemplations are on bodily postures. So far there have been explained on 30 contemplations among 261 contemplations. Breathing is a constant activity. So it is the best to concentrate on. After breathing 4 body postures are the best to concentrate on. Because at any given time one is in one of these 4 postures of 'walking/moving' 'standing' 'sitting' 'lying down'. Again any of these 4 postures cannot be a permanent posture and one has to change the posture frequently for health. So after 'breathing' and 'posture' the next thing that should be concentrated is 'changs in postures' or 'detail movements of body'. There are at least 20 detail movements of body in anyone who is a human being. So there are 20 contemplations on detail movement. 1. 20 contemplations on detail movements of own body (internally) 2. 20 contemplations on detail movements of others' body(externally) 3. 20 contemplations on detail movement of both intern. & extern. --- 60 contemplations on detail bodily movements There are 3 more extra contemplations on detail bodily movements. They are 1. 1 contemplation on origination of detail movement 2. 1 contemplation on dissolution of detail movement 3. 1 contemplation on both origination and dissolution of movements --- 3 extra contemplations on detail bodily movements. There are altogether 60 + 3 = 63 contemplations on detail bodily movements. What are the 20 detail movements? They will be explained in the coming post on kaayaanupassanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47840 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashes of something ashkenn2k Hi Since developing is also not self, so what is there to control. If self can be control, as I said many times as seen in the sutta, there will no affliction. The part of development is not about a self trying to be better, or I wish to attain something by trying. Development or looking at a sutta is not abt daily routine for lay person, development comes as panna arise. The need to develop depends on chanda, however the right way depends on panna. If chanda is conditioned by a self trying to investigate a not self, no way panna will arise. If chanda is conditioned by panna to investiage a not self then panna will arise. Just like reading a sutta, if bc there is a need to tell onself, hey I have to keep reading a sutta everyday, or force oneself to read everyday even though one does not wish to, is a waste of time. reading a sutta out of habit or just bc a self thinks this is the right way to get rid of a not self will not develop panna. reading a sutta must be conditioned by panna then development will arise, it must arise naturally. Anatta is a tricky business :-). A person while enjoying an ice-cream, between lobha, there may arise panna bc in between of the lobha, he realise that lobha is not self, anicca and dukkha. regards Ong KC 47841 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion ashkenn2k --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Larry (Tep, Howard & all), > --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > > Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is > conscious: > > the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I prefer the description consciousness is a reflection of an > object as > > experience; in Howard's lingo "presencing". > .... > S: I think that to really understand the distinction between nama > and > rupa, we have to understand that nama is the dhamma which can > experience > an object, whereas rupa cannot experience anything. Seeing is not > just the > ‘presencing’ or reflection of visible object. It is the > experiencing of > visible object. > ... > >However, this only applies > > to 5-door consciousness or a wisdom consciousness. In no way does > a > > consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness > rooted in > > greed is the experience of greed, not some object. I believe that > is > > standard satipatthana. > ... k: If there is no object, how does greed arise in the first place, please remember that the six sense are before the greed arise, which means, the six senses must meet their respective objects before contact can arise, feelings can arise and craving can arise. > > It is good to know > > that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is > > fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like > arises > > conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes > > something is logic, not reality. k: Logic is different from reality. One person logic thinks that the world is flat during the early days is not reality. The five aggregates are reality and not logic. Ken O 47842 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/18/05 1:59:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, This is such a great post !!!! I especially agree with the bit between "Hi all" and where you sign off :-) ------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) Thanks for the appreciative words! ------------------------------------------ There was another one recently, which I wanted to thank you for, but I just can't find it at the moment. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it might be msg # 47742, a reply to James, the content of which previewed the current post you're writing about. ------------------------------------------- Anyway, thank you. This is awesome indeed. Kind Regards Herman ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47843 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/18/05 4:22:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard and all >> It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's > deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to > help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. > And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic > level. Yes, well said. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Phil. :-) --------------------------------------- We learn to let go of clinging to people and things (reify at the macroscopic level) as understanding develops, and we see that the elemental components of experience, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus (and any other ways the Buddha broke things down in order to help us develop understanding of anatta) are momentary and miniscule in both duration and import. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I take it even a bit further than this, emphasizing lack of identity as separate entities - a strong denial of atta-hood to all phenomena. --------------------------------------- I know you think that the Abhidhamma approach sets up cittas as small agents of knowing and I guess you see that as a kind of reification or deification or something, but looking at things in that way is just to help us to better understand anatta, not to set up cittas and cetasikas as little kings. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure of this being the Abhidhamma approach, but merely of it being a danger lurking in the Abhidhamma approach should it be misunderstood. The Patthana is probably the main book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and it is a medicine for the disease of reification. It is Ven Nyanaponika's perspective that Abhidhamma doesn't present dhammas as separate and independent entities. ------------------------------------- Those similes are not to be held on to. They are helpful to some people but are not at the core of the teaching. We come to see that elements are hardly anything to seek to hold on to or care about, so I don't think there is reification there. But I may have misunderstood you. ----------------------------------- Howard: I wasn't criticizing Abhidhamma, just a couple diametrically opposing points of view. ---------------------------------- Or do you see reification in the teaching that rare, momentary awareness of paramattha dhammas is of great import? Wouldn't that be reification of the mindfulness of paramattha dhammas rather than the paramattha dhammas themselves? ----------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. ---------------------------------- BTW, these days I am feeling that I will say "paramattha dhammas" or "Dhamma realities" or something like that rather than "realities." --------------------------------------- Howard: These days I'm feeling that the less I speak or think in terms of realities or entities the better. Better, I believe, to think in terms of An-atta, A-nicca, sankhata, and nissayata (dependence). Letting go cognitively is a correlate to affective relinquishment. -------------------------------------- I keep thinking these days that the Buddha was not a scientist and didn't seek to explain the workings of the world as a scientist does and that simply saying "realities" could mislead people into going about things with too much of a physiological/psychological bent. ------------------------------------ Howard: I suppose it depends on how much one invests in the word 'reality'. Trees are not nothing at all, nor are sights, sounds, and hardness. Nihilism is the opposite error of substantialism, and annihilationism of eternalism. The middle way is extraordinarily subtle, I think. It is so easy to fall off to either side. ----------------------------------- (Is that "phenomenolgical?" I've never gotten around to asking what that word means!) ----------------------------------- Howard: It just means "pertaining to experience (per se)". ---------------------------------- He discovered and explained a system of understanding the world for the purpose of liberation from suffering, so, personally speaking, I don't expect close phenomenological (?) investigation of what is going on physiologically through the sense doors to perfectly match the Buddha's teaching. He discovered and taught for the purpose of liberation, not scientific investigation. So, for example, I wouldn't ponder the import of cochlear implants as Herman does or did, because it seems to me that that is the realm of neurology or some other logy, not Dhamma. We take what the Buddha or those noble ariyan disciples who followed him closely (if one doubts the authorship of Abhidhamma) taught, and *believe* it, and patiently work towards understanding it. I guess you and many others say that we should never believe anything that we haven't confirmed phenomenologically, through our own experience, but I think that's a mistake. Believing has to come first. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Tentative belief awaiting direct experiential confirmation, when warranted (by earned confidence, for example), makes sense. Blind-faith belief does not. ------------------------------------------ This is a religion, after all. If we stick with blind faith, that would be silly - we gradually move towards confirming whatever aspects of Dhamma we can. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, I wrote too quickly! ;-) Yes, we agree. ----------------------------------------- But at first there cannot be much of this confirmation, I'd say. There must be so much patience. Sorry Howard, I rambled off topic there, as usual. I guess this is something I've wanted to say to you and others who stress the priority of experiencing things before believing them. You may be right. This is just how I'm thinking these days. --------------------------------------- Howard: The prudent course in matters of belief is down the middle, I believe. -------------------------------------- Metta, Phil p.s Herman, hi, back to your post in a few days. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47844 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/18/05 4:27:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: I shall be glad to hear what Jon might say about the inconsistency that Herman has discovered. ========================= Guys, I find myself thinking of tag-team wrestling! ;-) Isn't there a saying about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47845 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/18/05 5:49:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: I think that to really understand the distinction between nama and rupa, we have to understand that nama is the dhamma which can experience an object, whereas rupa cannot experience anything. Seeing is not just the ‘presencing’ or reflection of visible object. It is the experiencing of visible object. ======================== No problem in saying that seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But a big problem in saying that it is the *experiencer* of visible object, and that is what is being said when one says "nama is the dhamma which can experience an object" or when one says "consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious." These locutions are reifying terminology, making out of nama/consciousness an entity which acts - an agent, a lttle self. I know that is not the intention! But how we speak affects how we think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47846 From: "mlnease" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:42am Subject: Adresses etc. mlnease Dear Friends, I lost all my email and many addresses some time ago and am trying to reconnect now. Apologies for any unanswered messages, also please send mods' address to my new address, mlnease@.... Thanks in Advance, mike 47847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. nilovg Hi Larry, op 18-07-2005 01:31 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "Sati is aware of an object that appears through a doorway. Sati > always > has an object. In a process there is first body-consciousness > experiencing tangible object. After that there are kusala or akusala > javanacittas. The kusala javana cittas can be accompanied by sati which > is mindful of tangible object." L: When sati is experienced sati is the object. When body consciousness is > experienced there is only body consciousness. --------- N: Sati can be the object of sati and paññaa which arise in a following mind-door process. Paññaa can realize sati as only a type of naama, not self. Also body-consciousness can be the object of sati and paññaa. You use the word experienced, but should we not say: realized? But all this is very difficult before discerning the difference between nama and rupa. We know many dhammas by name, we know kusala and akusala by name, but they arise and fall away so fast, we should not try to see whether a dhamma is kusala or akusala. Nina. 47848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashes of something nilovg Dear Herman, By developing understanding we learn that dhammas are conditioned, non-self. If someone says: develop understanding, it may help someone else to see the benefit of it, to have more confidence. Confidence is an essential quality, I believe. That person may have listened in the past. We know that many conditions are necessary for being able to develop understanding. op 18-07-2005 09:01 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling > everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop > more understanding. > > Which one is it to be? > 47849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, op 18-07-2005 06:08 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > what if these flashes are mental sankharas. Is it possible? > Until now, I understood sankharas as some sort of "thinking > clusters" something forming... like thinking. But never actually > seen them "in action". > But if I understand sankharas as determinations, then everything > falls into right place, including avija-sankhara-vinnana > sequence! --------- Sankhaara has different meanings in different contexts. avija-sankhara-vinnana: Here sankhaara means: kusala kamma, akusala kamma and imperturbable kamma (the aruupa-jhaanas). The word abhisankhaara is also used here: abhi: strong, kamma as a strong condition. It conditions vinnana, here: rebirth-consciousness and vipaakacittas arising during life. You can find these meanings in Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka. Sankharakkhandha, the khandha of formations or activities are all cetasikas except feeling and saññaa. Sankhaara dhamma: all conditioned dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. Nina. 47850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, op 18-07-2005 01:11 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...:> > There is strong Self here wanting to stay on the subject > of "just observing" and not being pushed around :) > Lots of moha, lobha and dosa. > So akusala is right. > > Could you please explain why mind door is so different? > I would like to understand why five senses produce vipaka cittas > but sixth not. ------ N: Vipaakacittas such as seeing experience an object through a sensedoor, but the sense-doors do not produce vipaka, it is kamma that produces vipaka. There are also vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door, but these vipaakacittas are not the sense-cognitions such as seeing. -------- A: Nina, if I only can do something about it. > I am just observing whats going on. > Knowing about them being just flashes doesn't help. > I still think this is happening to me, so no panna here. > During practice, when there is no more thinking, > right in split second there is sudden flash - and my mind > is chasing shadows... again :) > Could this be restlessness I am observing? -------- N: Also when there is not as we say in conventional sense thinking, there are still processes going on and cittas can experience objects, there can be thinking without words. Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. ------- A:Whats the source of restlessnes? -------- N: Ignorance. Ignorance and agitation, uddhacca, arise with each akusala citta. Nina. 47851 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:25pm Subject: [dsg] Hobgoblin of Little Minds buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 7/18/05 4:27:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Tep: I shall be glad to hear what Jon might say about the > inconsistency that Herman has discovered. > ========================= > Guys, I find myself thinking of tag-team wrestling! ;-) Isn't there a > saying about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds? ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi, Howard (and Herman) - I have heard of 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little mind'. But what is the story behind it? Warm regards, Tep ============= 47852 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. I am not sure if this is bad or good news :) I'd say is good. Sort of... Agrios. 47853 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hobgoblin of Little Minds upasaka_howard Hi. Tep - In a message dated 7/18/05 3:30:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 7/18/05 4:27:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Tep: I shall be glad to hear what Jon might say about the > inconsistency that Herman has discovered. > ========================= > Guys, I find myself thinking of tag-team wrestling! ;-) Isn't there a > saying about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds? ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi, Howard (and Herman) - I have heard of 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little mind'. ------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, yes. That's it! (Actually the word 'foolish' IS an important part of the slogan!) ------------------------------------- But what is the story behind it? --------------------------------- Howard: You mean of the original saying? I don't know - I don't even recall who came up with it. As regards Jon and this particular matter, well, I just meant that, yes, this is an inconsistency, but I'd personally just as soon let the matter drop. I suspect that all points that needed to be made by all involved have now already been made, and there's no need to push the issue. (Just my two cents :-) --------------------------------- Warm regards, Tep ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47854 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: [...] >If chanda is conditioned by a self > trying to investigate a not self, no way panna will arise. If chanda > is conditioned by panna to investiage a not self then panna will > arise. [...] Hi Ken, thanks for summing this thing up. I also feel this way. Taken as personal, wanting is just tiding everything into some mental knot. Patience is needed to trust in the Path. metta, Agrios. 47855 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > N: Vipaakacittas such as seeing experience an object through a sensedoor, > but the sense-doors do not produce vipaka, it is kamma that produces vipaka. > There are also vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door, > but these vipaakacittas are not the sense-cognitions such as seeing. [...] Hi Nina, I am having problem imagining "vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door" Could you give me few simplest possible examples? thanks, Agrios. 47856 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:11am Subject: Re: too many secrets ksheri3 Good Day htootintnaing, You issued a nice piece but what interested me was the bit about the Hinayanas. As for Madhyamika well lets just say that I Am Out There! You may wish remind people that one of Madhyamika's most necessary foundational premises is the Shunyavada (Theory of Negativity or Relativity). Remember: "Nothing comes into being, nor does anything disappear. Nothing is eternal, nor has anything an end. Nothing is identical, nor is anything differentiated. Nothimg moves here, nor does anything move there" Ever hear of the Yogacharka? Will the waitor bring me the meal if I say: Ston pa nid bdun cu pahi tsig lehur byas pa shes bya ba (Shunyata- saptati)? What does Prasangika have to do with the Madhyamika tradition? Thanx for your reply. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: <...> > > http://buddhism.about.com/cs/history/a/Schools.htm > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha125.htm > > > > metta, > > Chris > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Christine, > > Thanks for your links. You always have a good collections of useful > links. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ''Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms > Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or > the > Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law. > > About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna > developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that > everything > is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th > Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount > of > works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a > definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were > introduced. > > We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not > synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd > Century > B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in > India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism > existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence > anywhere in the world. Therefore, in 1950 the World Fellowship of > Buddhists inaugurated in Colombo unanimously decided that the term > Hinayana should be dropped when referring to Buddhism existing today > in > Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, etc. This is the brief > history of Theravada, Mahayana and Hinayana.'' 47857 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hobgoblin of Little Minds buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi. Tep - > (snipped) > Howard: > Ah, yes. That's it! (Actually the word 'foolish' IS an important part of > the slogan!) > ------------------------------------- > > But what is the story behind it? > --------------------------------- > Howard: > You mean of the original saying? I don't know - I don't even recall who > came up with it. > As regards Jon and this particular matter, well, I just meant that, yes, > this is an inconsistency, but I'd personally just as soon let the matter drop. > I suspect that all points that needed to be made by all involved have now > already been made, and there's no need to push the issue. (Just my two cents :-) Dear Friend Howard (also, Jon and Herman) - Fortunately, I sincerely meant the original story behind the hobglobin. But your point that we no longer need to push (or drag?) the issue is well taken. Regards, Tep ======= 47858 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Heedfulness and the Five Faculties buddhistmedi... Hi all {Attn. Nina, Howard, Ven. Samahita } - In the message # 47757, Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati , I wrote that mindfulness establishment depended upon well- balanced indriya (the 5 faculties). Tep: According to Breathing Treatise para 174, mindfulness is well established on the same basis that makes cognizance(citta) steadied and vice versa. This is called 'made the ground', which is defined as the development(bhavana) "in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties" (indriya). " 'Made the ground'(vatthukata): his mindfulness is well established (founded) on whatever basis his cognizance(citta) is well steadied on. His cognizance is well steadied on whatever ground his mindfulness is well established (founded) on. Hence 'made the ground' was said." [Breathing Treatise, para 174] Therefore, it is clear to me that all the conditions that steady the mind, making it free from hindrances, become non-distracted and calm, also help in developing mindfulness. Since well-balanced ('single function') indriyas (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) steady the citta, they help develop mindfulness. Thus, sati is not developed only by panna. There is an important question to ask further : What one quality(dhamma), when well established in the meditator's mind, leads to developed five faculties(indriya)? The answer is heedfulness, according to SN XLVIII.56, Patitthita Sutta. "Monks, when one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties are developed & developed well. Which one quality? Heedfulness. "And what is heedfulness? There is the case where a monk guards his mind in with regard to [mental] fermentations and mental qualities accompanied by fermentations. When his mind is guarded with regard to fermentations and mental qualities accompanied by fermentations, the faculty of conviction goes to the culmination of its development. The faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment goes to the culmination of its development." [SN XLVIII.56, Patitthita Sutta] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn48-056.html Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Howard (and Larry and Htoo) - > > The question was: What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? > > And your answer is: > > Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, > perserverence, and calm. > > Thank you very much, Howard, for the reply. Let me say that I have > been motivated by Nina's message # 47655. > > Nina: > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > > Tep: According to Breathing Treatise para 174, mindfulness is well > established on the same basis that makes cognizance(citta) steadied and vice versa. This is called 'made the ground', which is defined as the development(bhavana) "in the sense of single function (rasa) of the faculties" (indriya). > > " 'Made the ground'(vatthukata): his mindfulness is well established > (founded) on whatever basis his cognizance(citta) is well steadied on. His cognizance is well steadied on whatever ground his mindfulness is well established (founded) on. Hence 'made the ground' was said." > [Breathing Treatise, para 174] > > 47859 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something egberdina Dear Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Herman, > By developing understanding we learn that dhammas are conditioned, non-self. > If someone says: develop understanding, it may help someone else to see the > benefit of it, to have more confidence. Yes, I accept this. And if someone says find the solitude of the root of a tree and develop some concentration or calm, then this may be of benefit too. Our words are like seeds. We may have our favourite seeds, or we may like to target special areas, hoping perhaps "this will germinate, and that won't". But all our words are like seeds thrown into the wind, and when conditions are right *any* of our actions will germinate, anywhere. Be assured that I am not writing this about you, because if I was I would say so, but there is extremism on this site, and that extremism is not without consequence. Kind Regards Herman Confidence is an essential quality, > I believe. That person may have listened in the past. We know that many > conditions are necessary for being able to develop understanding. 47860 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something egberdina Dear Nina, of course :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > By developing understanding we learn that dhammas are conditioned, > non-self. > > If someone says: develop understanding, it may help someone else to > see the > > benefit of it, to have more confidence. > > Yes, I accept this. And if someone says find the solitude of the root > of a tree and develop some concentration or calm, then this may be of > benefit too. > > Our words are like seeds. We may have our favourite seeds, or we may > like to target special areas, hoping perhaps "this will germinate, and > that won't". But all our words are like seeds thrown into the wind, > and when conditions are right *any* of our actions will germinate, > anywhere. > > Be assured that I am not writing this about you, because if I was I > would say so, but there is extremism on this site, and that extremism > is not without consequence. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > Confidence is an essential quality, > > I believe. That person may have listened in the past. We know that many > > conditions are necessary for being able to develop understanding. 47861 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hobgoblin of Little Minds upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon & Herman) - In a message dated 7/18/05 5:44:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Friend Howard (also, Jon and Herman) - Fortunately, I sincerely meant the original story behind the hobglobin. But your point that we no longer need to push (or drag?) the issue is well taken. Regards, Tep =========================== I found the following: ______________________________ The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds A great person does not have to think consistently from one day to the next. This remark comes from the essay “Self-Relianceâ€? by Ralph Waldo Emerson. Emerson does not explain the difference between foolish and wise consistency. 1 --------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47862 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. lbidd2 Nina: "You use the word experienced, but should we not say: realized?" Hi Nina, Realized is ok. To me, experience is consciousness and consciousness is experience. I am using "sati" to mean recollection of the teachings. Larry 47863 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:10am Subject: Forensics vs. Divination, see Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) ksheri3 Good Morning Group, Damn did I have the most productive and fulfilling weekend. No I did not participate in any of those sex-magik rituals. I was resolved to another boring night of study when the reality of cause & effect snatched my consciuosness and led to me Nirvana, okay maybe it was Nibbana, I don't have time to use the negative and say this is better than that, I mean Discriminate. I printed this piece on "Bhavaviveka's Svatantra-anumana..." last March and can easily say that it took me more than a month to read. Maybe because I was also grappling with understanding Deconstruction by Jaq. Derrida and my head was throbbing: what drugs do these guys do? I went through this paper in less than two hours when my initial confrontation took several weeks. I asked if I could get any help on buddhist schools of discipline but when I got into my mode of study I simply ripped through a lot, I could've done so much more if I didn't have roommates, yet they distracted me. It makes so much sense! "That is to say, once after a seeker 'crosses the river', the river itself as well as the raft which the seekler had used are annihilated" Dear me, may some person attempt the prasajya-pratisedha (absolute negation)? I can't wait to get into Dignaga's Buddhist Logic (hetu vidya) It seems I'm off on a tangent. It may take a few days to begin my treck. so I leave you today with. "From Nagarjuna's point of view, then, participating in scholarly debates, writing explanations of the Buddha's teachings, and celebrating freedom from illusion and pain in hymns werer considered to be consistent with the highest truth that does not seperate wisom from compassion. toodles, colette 47864 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) egberdina Hi Htoo, > Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life is > the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Buddhists need not to be told this. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This is just a little true story. I live in Bathurst NSW, a city with a population of around 30,000 people. There is not much opportunity to hear dhamma here. I saw an advertisement in the paper for a dhamma talk by an ordained person, I was glad to read it and I went. The ordained person talked with great authority about kamma of past lives, death and rebirth. I realised that the lack of dhamma talks in Bathurst is not necessarily a problem. Is it reasonable to have a view on eternity, heaven and hell? For me, any dearly held view that cannot be falsified can at best rot your mind in the present. Kind Regards Herman 47865 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hobgoblin of Little Minds egberdina Hi Howard, Tep, Jon, > I found the following: > > ______________________________ > The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002. > > A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds > > > A great person does not have to think consistently from one day to the next. > This remark comes from the essay “Self-Relianceâ€? by Ralph Waldo Emerson. > Emerson does not explain the difference between foolish and wise consistency. 1 > --------------------------------------------- > The upshot of this is that Jon is a great person, which , of course, I never doubted :-) Kind Regards Herman 47866 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Sarah: "Seeing is not just the 'presencing' or reflection of visible object. It is the experiencing of visible object." Hi Sarah, This is the crux of our disagreement. I would say seeing does not experience visible object. Instead, I would say seeing is the conditioned arising of a seeing experience (seeing consciousness). When there is contact between visible object and eye sensitivity seeing arises. There is no contact between eye consciousness and visible object. That is a conventional way of understanding and not based on dependent arising. Seeing is the experience of itself (consciousness of itself). Larry 47867 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Vism.XIV,173 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 173. (xlvii) Avariciousness is 'avarice'. Its characteristic is the hiding of one's own success that has been or can be obtained. Its function is not to bear sharing these with others. It is manifested as shrinking, or it is manifested as meanness. Its proximate cause is one's own success. It should be regarded as a mental disfigurement. 47868 From: "balancing_life" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) balancing_life Hi Htoo Naing As this an e-correspondence Buddhism course that i am taking, which is sent weekly by one of the volunteers of the Mahindarama Temple, and unfortunately, being a novice, i am unable to answer any of your questions, thus i have forwarded them to the administrator or the owner of this course, Mr. Tee Chee Seng, who will answer you in due course, as he is a working man also, so it might take him a while to answer all your questions. Thanks very much for your patience. With Metta :} AliceInThankingU4YourQuestionsLand P/S - Will forward one email from another yahoogroup, in response to this e-correspondence lesson, just for public information only. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Balancing Life, > > Could you please clarify these matters? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 47869 From: "balancing_life" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) - Missed out reply... balancing_life Hi Htoo Persuant to my first reply... PPS - I always reply to emails/messages in response to any of the emails that i receive (unless i have missed them out or sometimes, funnily enough, i see the messages on the webpage of each yahoogroup, but it doesn't reach my mailbox), but, i usually can do so, only when i have the time, and that is usually during the weekends, when i can concentrate as when i am working, my mind is distracted by work and not focussed on anything other, than that, as at the moment, my work is my only "rice-bowl"...so hoping you will understand my situation/circumstance. Peace & Namaste :} AliceInThankingU4YourUnderStandingLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Balancing Life, > > Could you please clarify these matters? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing ------------ > > Htoo: > > Hoping that Balancing Life is replying. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47870 From: "balancing_life" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: [Dharma-Direct] Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) balancing_life --- In Dharma-Direct@yahoogroups.com, James Newell wrote: Unfortunately, many people don't trust a proof that they can't see themselves, such as a statement by someone else that they have seen reincarnation occcuring. Even though such observations can be true, many people still don't trust them. But there is a solution for people using ordinary data everyone can see, and a logical derivation. This is the essence of the scientific approach, the analysis of data from observations. A summary of this is given below. The following is, by the way, only a beginning. There are many further details that could be discovered and this could turn into an entire field of Buddhist science. Scientific Verification of Several Key Buddhist Ideas, 2005 Summary James F. Newell, B.A.,. U. California Berkeley, Ph.D., U. Washington, Seattle It is possible to prove several key Buddhist ideas using that combination of data and logic which is the hallmark of scientific work. The proof is long, so will be spread over a number of messages. An important difficulty in understanding the proof is that the words used are being used in a technical sense which must be understood from the context of the proof itself. Trying to use ordinary meanings for the words will result in not understanding the data and logic. The scientific verification parallels the quantum theory of consciousness in places, but also goes beyond it. You can read a short summary of the original quantum consciousness theory at http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~philos/MindDict/quantum.html <....> So karma is verified. Notice that we can make use of karma to advance ourselves on the spiritual path. If we give knowledge and wisdom to others which helps them spiritually, we will be given knowledge and wisdom which helps us spiritually in the future. Note also that it isn't as easy to just dissolve karma as many people think. Since karma involves volitional memories/habits, one can't just get rid of it by giving a donation to the Sangha or by reciting a mantra. One can generate other kinds of merit by doing the above, so the above are good to do. But one can't go out and harm other beings, and then just get rid of the karma by a donation or reciting a mantra. Note also that neglecting to do something can create as much negative karma as actually actively doing something harmful. ***To leave not a single being twisting in the wind.*** Jim <...> 47871 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion Evan_Stamato... Hi Larry, For an "uninstructed worldling", the process is as follows: eye - visible form -> eye consciousness -> feeling -> craving -> attachment For one more skilled at guarding the sense doors, the process is as follows: eye - visible form -> eye consciousness It can't be said that person 1 experiences or person 2 experiences but it can be said that an experience occurs in process 1 and an experience occurs in process 2. Basically, just because process 2 stops at the sense consciousness, it does not mean that an experience has not occurred. It's just that there is no "I" (or even eye) which experiences this process it is just a process. I guess it comes down more to the definition of "experience" and to what it is applied. Experience is something that occurs - any other definition could come close to I-making. My 2c worth. With Metta, Evan ---------Larry---------------- This is the crux of our disagreement. I would say seeing does not experience visible object. Instead, I would say seeing is the conditioned arising of a seeing experience (seeing consciousness). When there is contact between visible object and eye sensitivity seeing arises. There is no contact between eye consciousness and visible object. That is a conventional way of understanding and not based on dependent arising. Seeing is the experience of itself (consciousness of itself). ------------------------------ 47872 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: [Dharma-Direct] Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) Evan_Stamato... OK, this smacks a little too much like the xtians using "scientific proof" to support their fables as fact. Fabricated evidence is often used in support of these fables (as there is little or no real evidence) therefore Buddhism must be very careful when treading in this territory. I don't see how a very loose theory of the quantum nature of consioucness can be used to prove the Buddhist concept of kamma or rebirth (not reincarnation because this is not what a Buddhist concept). What is a more practical (but again not a proof positive technique) is to collect evidence from someones past life experience and then validate that against historical evidence. It can of course be argued that the purson relating the past life experience studied the available historical evidence and fabricated a story to fit it. These sorts of experiments have been done before and they only serve to reinforce the believers and not convince the sceptics. They are exercises in futility. Why would any Buddhist require "scientific proof" anyway when one can experience the truth or otherwise of the Dhamma for onesself just by following the eight-fold path? With Metta, Evan --- In Dharma-Direct@yahoogroups.com, James Newell wrote: Unfortunately, many people don't trust a proof that they can't see themselves, such as a statement by someone else that they have seen reincarnation occcuring. Even though such observations can be true, many people still don't trust them. But there is a solution for people using ordinary data everyone can see, and a logical derivation. This is the essence of the scientific approach, the analysis of data from observations. A summary of this is given below. The following is, by the way, only a beginning. There are many further details that could be discovered and this could turn into an entire field of Buddhist science. Scientific Verification of Several Key Buddhist Ideas, 2005 Summary James F. Newell, B.A.,. U. California Berkeley, Ph.D., U. Washington, Seattle It is possible to prove several key Buddhist ideas using that combination of data and logic which is the hallmark of scientific work. The proof is long, so will be spread over a number of messages. An important difficulty in understanding the proof is that the words used are being used in a technical sense which must be understood from the context of the proof itself. Trying to use ordinary meanings for the words will result in not understanding the data and logic. The scientific verification parallels the quantum theory of consciousness in places, but also goes beyond it. You can read a short summary of the original quantum consciousness theory at http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~philos/MindDict/quantum.html <....> So karma is verified. Notice that we can make use of karma to advance ourselves on the spiritual path. If we give knowledge and wisdom to others which helps them spiritually, we will be given knowledge and wisdom which helps us spiritually in the future. Note also that it isn't as easy to just dissolve karma as many people think. Since karma involves volitional memories/habits, one can't just get rid of it by giving a donation to the Sangha or by reciting a mantra. One can generate other kinds of merit by doing the above, so the above are good to do. But one can't go out and harm other beings, and then just get rid of the karma by a donation or reciting a mantra. Note also that neglecting to do something can create as much negative karma as actually actively doing something harmful. ***To leave not a single being twisting in the wind.*** Jim 47873 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > > > Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life is > > the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Htoo: Buddhists need not to be told this. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > This is just a little true story. I live in Bathurst NSW, a city with > a population of around 30,000 people. There is not much opportunity to > hear dhamma here. I saw an advertisement in the paper for a dhamma > talk by an ordained person, I was glad to read it and I went. The > ordained person talked with great authority about kamma of past lives, > death and rebirth. I realised that the lack of dhamma talks in > Bathurst is not necessarily a problem. > > Is it reasonable to have a view on eternity, heaven and hell? For me, > any dearly held view that cannot be falsified can at best rot your > mind in the present. > >========== Dear Herman, I don't know how good the monk was at speaking, but it should be helpful to most of us to be reminded about the round of birth and death (samsara). It is good to know how precarious our position is, so that we can take advantage of the Buddha's teaching. Robertk 47874 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Evan: "Experience is something that occurs - any other definition could come close to I-making." Hi Evan, I agree. The same for consciousness. Consciousness is something that occurs. One experience doesn't experience another experience or phenomenon. Consciousness doesn't experience something else or ''know' something else. Larry 47875 From: "balancing_life" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Re: Public Apology to Jon balancing_life Hi Howard & EveryBody, Sorry, but i have not following all the 700+ messages since July 1st for dsg alone (as i have more than 20,000 unread buddhism yahoo messages alone, although, each morning, i do look through the titles/captions of all the messages) and this email caught my eye...i have been intending to reply to it, but have been unable to till now, as i got up before 5 am this morning and is in the office before 6.30 am. (My office hours are from 9 am to 6 pm, Mondays to Fridays). AnyWay, what i wanted to say is that it takes a "GREAT" man to admit to something, and for you, you are truly & really, a Great Guy also, to have apologised for it. That's all i have to say. With LovingKindNess :} AliceInTruly&ReallyRespectingHowardLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Jon - I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47876 From: "balancing_life" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: [Dharma-Direct] balancing_life Actually, i agree with you, Evan. In one of the Buddhism Basic Books i read about Lord Buddha, just after his enlightenment, he meditated & could see his past & future and to me it was so depressing to me, that as Lord Buddha could see thousands of his past lives (they are listed in the Jakata tales)and just to achieve Nibbana...it took him thousands of lives, to live, before he could attain this achievement. Well, what chance do we, as a layperson have, with all the sins that we have done before, when we have not discovered Buddhism yet,(to undo what we have done - although it is impossible to do so)? With Metta :( AliceInNotWantingToLiveAnyMoreLivesLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: OK, this smacks a little too much like the xtians using "scientific proof" to support their fables as fact. Fabricated evidence is often used in support of these fables (as there is little or no real evidence) therefore Buddhism must be very careful when treading in this territory. I don't see how a very loose theory of the quantum nature of consioucness can be used to prove the Buddhist concept of kamma or rebirth (not reincarnation because this is not what a Buddhist concept). What is a more practical (but again not a proof positive technique) is to collect evidence from someones past life experience and then validate that against historical evidence. It can of course be argued that the purson relating the past life experience studied the available historical evidence and fabricated a story to fit it. These sorts of experiments have been done before and they only serve to reinforce the believers and not convince the sceptics. They are exercises in futility. Why would any Buddhist require "scientific proof" anyway when one can experience the truth or otherwise of the Dhamma for onesself just by following the eight-fold path? With Metta, Evan 47877 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion Evan_Stamato... Larry, Totally agree - there is no knower, just process. The best discussions I have are the ones where I agree with the other person. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LBIDD@... Sent: Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:30 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion Evan: "Experience is something that occurs - any other definition could come close to I-making." Hi Evan, I agree. The same for consciousness. Consciousness is something that occurs. One experience doesn't experience another experience or phenomenon. Consciousness doesn't experience something else or ''know' something else. Larry 47878 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: [Dharma-Direct] Evan_Stamato... Well, first of all, to become a Buddha takes many lifetimes (incalculable periods etc - it is defined in one of the suttas but I don't remember which). So don't be disappointed with how long it takes. That means you are grasping at a goal. I must admit to having felt like that also when I first realised I was a Buddhist but when I relaxed about achieving "attainments", I no longer felt like that. Also, look at the story of Angulimala - he killed 999 people before he entered the order and gained enlightenment in the same lifetime. Just enjoy, practice the best you can and make the most of the situation you are in. With Metta, Evan Actually, i agree with you, Evan. In one of the Buddhism Basic Books i read about Lord Buddha, just after his enlightenment, he meditated & could see his past & future and to me it was so depressing to me, that as Lord Buddha could see thousands of his past lives (they are listed in the Jakata tales)and just to achieve Nibbana...it took him thousands of lives, to live, before he could attain this achievement. Well, what chance do we, as a layperson have, with all the sins that we have done before, when we have not discovered Buddhism yet,(to undo what we have done - although it is impossible to do so)? With Metta :( AliceInNotWantingToLiveAnyMoreLivesLand 47879 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion/ Valuable Disagreements buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan - You wrote: > > The best discussions I have are the ones where I agree with the other > person. > May I make an observation? The discussion in which you disagree with another person is possibly more valuable than those that you end up in agreement. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Larry, > > Totally agree - there is no knower, just process. > With Metta, > > Evan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LBIDD@w... > Sent: Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:30 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion > > Evan: "Experience is something that occurs - any other definition could > come close to I-making." > > Hi Evan, > > I agree. The same for consciousness. Consciousness is something that > occurs. One experience doesn't experience another experience or > phenomenon. Consciousness doesn't experience something else or ''know' > something else. > > Larry 47880 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:36pm Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion egberdina Hi Larry and Sarah, Howard and Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah: "Seeing is not just the 'presencing' or reflection of visible > object. It is the experiencing of visible object." > > Hi Sarah, > > This is the crux of our disagreement. I would say seeing does not > experience visible object. Instead, I would say seeing is the > conditioned arising of a seeing experience (seeing consciousness). When > there is contact between visible object and eye sensitivity seeing > arises. There is no contact between eye consciousness and visible > object. That is a conventional way of understanding and not based on > dependent arising. Seeing is the experience of itself (consciousness of > itself). > I think this has been a great discussion to date. Hope I don't wreck it :-) I'm just going to be repeating what Evan, Howard and Larry have been saying for some time. The functional diagram of seeing and the experience of seeing are different things. One does not experience the how of seeing. The components of seeing become apparent through analysis, through action. And how the functional diagram ends up looking is not a matter of course, it just depends on how the analysis proceeds. But in the meantime, seeing and visible object are not separate. And neither are hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, touching intrinsically separate from each other. Until you separate them, of course, and that's called thinking they are separate :-). I love the bit towards the end of "the lesser discourse on emptiness" where even signless awareness is recognised as a mental fabrication, subject to change and ceasing. All that is left is "this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition. Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure -- superior and unsurpassed." Kind Regards Herman 47881 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something onco111 Great comment, Agrios. I hope you can tell us what you mean. Something along the lines of what I'm thinking? Viz: Restlessness makes the world go 'round -- and in more ways than one. Without a whole bunch of restless people constantly doing an enormous variety of high quality and energetic work to support us, we wouldn't be communicating on the internet, or driving cars to work or flying to India to discuss Dhamma, or buying apples from New Zealand in March, or worrying about whom GWB will nominate to SCOTUS, or ... If we love the world, then it is good news indeed that only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. And who doesn't love the world? Only the arahat! Dan > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > [...] > > Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. > > I am not sure if this is bad or good news :) > I'd say is good. > Sort of... > > Agrios. 47882 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: objects of desire and aversion /Sarah's Good Preaching sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, Thank you for your helpful summary of my comments (not intended as a 'preaching' at all, but thank you all the same)....One clarification inserted: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Craving > ----------- > > # Craving or greed arises when there is an attractive andalluring object > of any kind perceived. > # So there can be greed about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, > touched or thought about. Or there can be greed about the > experiencing of those objects or to previous attachment and pleasant > feeling about them. > # Craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with > feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. ... S: All cittas and cetasikas depend on object condition. I wrote:‘As the sutta Tep aptly quoted (DN22)indicated, craving or greed arises when there is an attractive and alluring object of any kind perceived’, I also quoted: ‘Cosnciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise without them’. So all cittas and cetasikas depend on object condition (and many others such as decisive-support condition). ..... > Object Conditions and Conditioned States > -------------------------------------------------------------- > # `The Conditioning States. These are the six kinds of objects: > 1)visible object, 2) sound, 3)odour, 4)taste, 5)tangible object consisting of > hardness, heat and motion, 6)cognizable object consisting of the > remaining 21 states of materiality, 89 consciousnesses, 52 mental > factors, Nibbana and concept.... > # `The Conditioned States. These are consciousness and mental > factors. Consciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise > without them. Even during sleep, the life-continuum takes the object > which was taken in the dying process of the previous existence.....' ... S: And for those who prefer their Patthana unsweetened and with Pali: Patthana, Analytical Exposition of the Conditions (PTS transl), “2 object condition:(2. Aaramma.napaccayoti): i) Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition.(ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) ii) Sound-base is related to ear-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (Saddaayatana.m sotavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) iii) Odour-base is related to nose-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (Gandhaayatana.m ghaanavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) iv) Taste t-base is related to tongue-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition (Rasaayatana.m jivhaavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) v) Tangible object-base is related to ear-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (Pho.t.thabbaayatana.m kaayavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) vi) Visible object-base, sound-base, odour-base, taste-base, tangible object-base is related to mind-element and its associated states by object condition. (Ruupaayatana.m saddaayatana.m gandhaayatana.m rasaayatana.m pho.t.thabbaayatana.m manodhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) vii) All states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (Sabbe dhammaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.) viii) Taking any state as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition. (Ya.m ya.m dhamma.m aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa, te te dhammaa tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo.)” ***** S: So whenever cittas and cetasikas arise, they have to take an object. Thanks again for your kind comments and for all the other feedback from the others. As I said, I'll look forward to reading further discussions, but try to resist butting in anymore:). Metta, Sarah ======== 47883 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] flashes of something Evan_Stamato... Sometimes it's dificult not to enjoy the "honey tipped dart". -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan D. Sent: Tuesday, 19 July 2005 3:40 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something Great comment, Agrios. I hope you can tell us what you mean. Something along the lines of what I'm thinking? Viz: Restlessness makes the world go 'round -- and in more ways than one. Without a whole bunch of restless people constantly doing an enormous variety of high quality and energetic work to support us, we wouldn't be communicating on the internet, or driving cars to work or flying to India to discuss Dhamma, or buying apples from New Zealand in March, or worrying about whom GWB will nominate to SCOTUS, or ... If we love the world, then it is good news indeed that only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. And who doesn't love the world? Only the arahat! Dan > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > [...] > > Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. > > I am not sure if this is bad or good news :) I'd say is good. > Sort of... > > Agrios. 47884 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:34am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 251 - Attachment/lobha (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] We may not have the intention to steal, but our wish to obtain something for ourselves can condition behaviour and speech which is not sincere. The Book of Analysis (Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §851) speaks about people who have “evil wishes”, that is, who pretend to have qualities they do not possess; they may pretend to be virtuous, wise and even without defilements. The monk may behave in a hypocritical way in order to obtain requisites. The Vibhaòga (§861, 862) gives us striking examples of “ guile” and “insinuating talk”: * "Therein, what is “guile”? In one who depends on gain, honour and fame, who has evil wishes, who is troubled by wishes: by the so called using of the requisites, by talking allusively, by the setting up or by the arranging or by the proper arranging of the posture: there is knitting the brows, act of knitting the brows, guile, being guileful, state of being guileful. This is called guile. "Therein, what is “insinuating talk”? In one who depends on gain, honour and fame, who has evil wishes, who is troubled by wishes: that which to others is welcoming talk, insinuating talk, entertaining talk, laudatory talk, flattering talk, inferential talk, repeated inferential talk, coaxing talk, repeated coaxing talk, constant pleasant talk, servility (in talking), beansoupery (in talking), dandling (behaviour). This is called insinuating talk." * “Beansoupery” is talk of which only a little is true, the rest being false, just as in beansoup, only a few beans do not get cooked, and the greater part gets cooked(1). These passages are also excellent reminders for laypeople: one may have lovely manners but in reality one may be full of hypocrisy and pretence. Pleasant speech can easily have selfish motives. Don’t we want to be popular, to be liked by others? In order to endear ourselves to others we may even tell lies or slander. When there is mindfulness of the present reality we can find out whether our nice way of speaking is in reality flattering and coaxing talk or not. Through mindfulness we can become more sincere in our behaviour. *** 1) Visuddhimagga I, 75. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47885 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) egberdina Dear RobertK, == --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > > > > > > Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life > is > > > the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > Htoo: Buddhists need not to be told this. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > This is just a little true story. I live in Bathurst NSW, a city > with > > a population of around 30,000 people. There is not much > opportunity to > > hear dhamma here. I saw an advertisement in the paper for a dhamma > > talk by an ordained person, I was glad to read it and I went. The > > ordained person talked with great authority about kamma of past > lives, > > death and rebirth. I realised that the lack of dhamma talks in > > Bathurst is not necessarily a problem. > > > > Is it reasonable to have a view on eternity, heaven and hell? For > me, > > any dearly held view that cannot be falsified can at best rot your > > mind in the present. > > > >========== > > Dear Herman, > I don't know how good the monk was at speaking, but it should be > helpful to most of us to be reminded about the round of birth and > death (samsara). It is good to know how precarious our position is, > so that we can take advantage of the Buddha's teaching. > Robertk You are right. I went to a dhamma talk and *I* turned it into a poor one. Every moment is a very worthwhile teacher. Thanks for the pointer Herman 47886 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend sarah abbott wrote: > > > "Intention always comes first' etc. Dhp1 > > Usually I think 'mind' is used. > > Indeed. It is an experimental rendering: > BTW: How is Mind defined? As which 5 things? ... S: Mind (mano) is a synonym for citta (consciousness). We read in the texts such as the Atthasalini about how it's the forerunner of all states. By 5 things, are you referring to the 5 khandhas? Mano or citta is vinnana khandha. Metta, Sarah ======== 47887 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion/ Valuable Disagreements Evan_Stamato... Hi Tep, I beg to differ. There are these 4 cases: 1. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which both agree and both their views are right. 2. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which they disagree and one of their views is right and the other wrong. 3. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which they disagree and both their views are wrong. 4. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which they agree and both their views are wrong. If I was agreeing with Larry and we were with case 4 then that would be very bad indeed because we would not even be aware that we had wrong view and not being aware of it is a dangerous situation because we would not then try to fix our wrong view. Case 3 is also wrong but because both our wrong views are in disagreeance then there might be a chance that we might change our views but it is highly likely that we would change them to another wrong view so therre is danger in this as well. Case 2 is dangerous because the one with right view might change their view to the wrong view - not a good result. It can also cause heated discussion resulting in one or both of the individuals getting upset (as can case 3) therefore producing unwholesome results. Case 1 is of course the ideal because right view is being expounded and both individuals are not likely to get upset with that. I hope I have explained myself adequately and not confused the situation further. With Metta, Evan Hi, Evan - You wrote: > > The best discussions I have are the ones where I agree with the other > person. > May I make an observation? The discussion in which you disagree with another person is possibly more valuable than those that you end up in agreement. Warm regards, Tep 47888 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Dear Dan (*all), --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > S: :-) You said it! At least when another thorn comes along, we can > say, 'well, there's hope -- look at Dan';). > > HA! I'm still a thorn, but I'm a feather in your cap too. ... :) ... > Yup. Lots of ways to describe realities, and one of the descriptions > of one aspect might be just the right thing at the right time. This > is what makes a live teacher (at least a really good live teacher) so > much better than reading -- he/she can discern what needs to be heard > at the moment it needs to be heard and then provide it. 99.9% of the > time reading doesn't give the right thing at the right time. ... S: Even if one were to hear the 'really good live teacher', it depends whether one can appreciate the wise words....just as when one is reading, I think. Only the Buddha really knew what everyone needed to hear at any time, I think. When he taught the sutta you selected, the Mulapariyaya Sutta, the bhikkhus were not pleased at the end of it.* Still, the Buddha knew it was the right dhamma for them to hear. .... > > > What conditions development of insight? Wise attention and > listening > > > to clear descriptions of characteristics of reality. > > ... > > S: Yes, and what do you mean by 'reality' here in the context of > your > > post? > > ... > > I was thinking in particular about silabbataparamasa and samma- > vayama. ... S: I believe there has to be a lot more wise attention and listening to clear descriptions of the khandhas, of namas and rupas and their distinction and so on. Without an understanding of conditioned dhammas, there will always be a wrong idea of what samma-vayama is and what right and wrong practice is. .... > > > Just one? Then, let's go with MN 1, Mulapariyaya Sutta. > > > > > .... > > S: Another favourite of mind too....any aspect or section you'd > like to > > highlight? > > Oh, Sarah, you are so hard! This sutta is so rich with meaning that I > don't know where to begin. But very briefly, it discusses two central > topics -- the beginning is the development of a clear understanding > of the distinction between reality and concept and that the end is > the deep understanding that the "I" is also concept that arises > as/with/in attachment to either concept or reality. It's been awhile > since I've read this one, so no details. ... S: A very nice summary. Hope you hang around, Dan:). Metta, Sarah *Just to emphasise that people often found the arahants or even the Buddha's talks 'irritating' or unpleasant. So, it's very, very natural that often what we mere worldlings say will often condition displeasure:). =============== 47889 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 448 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 12 puggalas or 12 individuals there are 8 ariya puggalas and 4 puthujana puggalas. Ariya puggalas have been explained in the previous posts. There are 4 puthujana puggala or individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) 4. duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destination, rootless individual where many likesa arise) 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) This individual is where many defilements arise. They are beings in happy destination like human realm or deva realm. But they are born with ahetuka patisandhi or rootless rebirth consciousness. This means that their patisandhi citta does not have any root at all. There are 6 root dhamma and they are alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, amoha or non-ignorance and also there are no akusala root like lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion and moha or ignorance. They may be human beings, who have congenital deafness or congenital blindness. Or they may be lower deva beings who do not have much power like other deva beings. The cittas that can arise in these sugati-ahetuka puggala are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas ( 7 akusala origin and 8 kusala origin) c) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas d) 8 mahakusala cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas do not arise) ---- 37 cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be valuable for all. 47890 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:33am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 05 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 15 contemplations are on breathing matters and 15 contemplations are on bodily postures. There are at least 20 detail movements of body in anyone who is a human being. So there are 20 contemplations on detail movement. 1. 20 contemplations on detail movements of own body (internally) 2. 20 contemplations on detail movements of others' body(externally) 3. 20 contemplations on detail movement of both intern. & extern. --- 60 contemplations on detail bodily movements There are 3 more extra contemplations on detail bodily movements. They are 1. 1 contemplation on origination of detail movement 2. 1 contemplation on dissolution of detail movement 3. 1 contemplation on both origination and dissolution of movements --- 3 extra contemplations on detail bodily movements. There are altogether 60 + 3 = 63 contemplations on detail bodily movements. What are the 20 detail movements? 1. contemplation on 'going to somewhere' (abhikkante) 2. contemplation on 'coming back from somewhere'(patikkante) 3. contemplation on 'looking straight ahead'(aalokite) 4. contemplation on 'looking elsewhere'(vilokite) 5. contemplation on 'bending'(samimjite) 6. contemplation on 'straightening'(pasaarite) 7. contemplation on 'handling'(dhaarane) 8. contemplation on 'eating'(asite) 9. contemplation on 'drinking'(pite) 10.contemplation on 'biting/gnawing/cracking/chewing'(khayite) 11. contemplation on 'licking/savouring/tasting/smacking'(saayite) 12. contemplation on 'defecation'(uccaara kamme) 13. contemplation on 'urination'(passaava kamme) 14. contemplation on 'walking'(gate) 15. contemplation on 'standing/stopping walking'(htite) 16. contemplation on 'sitting'(nissimne) 17. contemplation on 'going asleep'(sutte) 18. contemplation on 'waking up afresh'(jaagarite) 19. contemplation on 'speaking'(bhasite) 20. contemplation on 'silence'(tunhnibhaave) When these contemplations are done it is not on the idea of 'going somewhere'. But contemplation on arising ruupa that happen when going somewhere. This has to be the same to other 19 detail movements. All these 20 detail movements are daily life activities. There are more than these 20 activities. But all will be inclusive in these 20 detail movement. Bhikkhus have to live in this way. Bhikkhus here include those who have been following experiential path of The Buddha. For those lay people who are still not mature do not necessarily have to live in this way. But if one has determined to achieve higher naana in the shortest way has to strive as much as possible as long as they possess a living life. The practitioner perceives ruupas will be arising in others' body in the same way as they arise in his body. These are 20 external contemplation. And sometimes he perceives that there will be ruupa arising in both his body and others'. SO there will be a total of 60 contemplations. 3 extra contemplations are contemplation on the causes of these detail movement. These detail movements arise not without a cause. There is mind that want to perform intended task. That mind cause consciousness-born ruupas and these spread through out the physical body and then there arise different movements. Like origination, sometimes the practitioner perceives the dissolution of these detail movement as they go off and disappear. Sometime he or she perceives both origination and dissolution factors. Therefore there are altogether 63 contemplations on detail movements of the physical body. Contemplation has to be on ruupa or naama and it is not on any idea or concept or names of so and so activities. When the practitioner can exactly do this job he is not depening on anything in this world on this earth and he or she is temporaily released from binding. All these are part of vipassana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47891 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi > > Since developing is also not self, so what is there to control. If > self can be control, as I said many times as seen in the sutta, there > will no affliction. > > The part of development is not about a self trying to be better, or I > wish to attain something by trying. Development or looking at a > sutta is not abt daily routine for lay person, development comes as > panna arise. The need to develop depends on chanda, however the > right way depends on panna. If chanda is conditioned by a self > trying to investigate a not self, no way panna will arise. If chanda > is conditioned by panna to investiage a not self then panna will > arise. Just like reading a sutta, if bc there is a need to tell > onself, hey I have to keep reading a sutta everyday, or force oneself > to read everyday even though one does not wish to, is a waste of > time. reading a sutta out of habit or just bc a self thinks this is > the right way to get rid of a not self will not develop panna. > reading a sutta must be conditioned by panna then development will > arise, it must arise naturally. Anatta is a tricky business :-). A > person while enjoying an ice-cream, between lobha, there may arise > panna bc in between of the lobha, he realise that lobha is not self, > anicca and dukkha. > > > regards > Ong KC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, Anatta is not a tricky business. What is tricky is avijjaa. The Buddha would not taught any tricky Dhamma. The chief Dhamma that The Buddha taught is Anatta. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47892 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:39am Subject: Connie - a few stringballs sarahprocter... Hi Connie, A few random thoughts before signing off to you for a while- 1. on the Thai-Pali terms in Banares: See Dispeller p59 and also U.P. under ‘posture’; not seeing impermanence due to: santati (concealed by continuity), iriyaapatha (concealed by postures), naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga (concealed by compactness). Maybe also try ‘impermanence’ and ‘Sacca-nana’ in U.P. 2. Thanks for the detailed tapescript #47726 down to the ums and ahs:). Lots of great content...I was going to put some through a ‘textsoap’, but no time. I like the way it starts, with a little textsoap – ‘So we do not cling anymore to anything because at the moment of a glimpse of understanding that it’s just a reality there can be more and more moments (of understanding later).Then there will be less and less attachment to nimitta and anubyanjana (signs and details), so one can understand what is in the teachings about having less attachment to nimitta and anubyanjana. (This is) not just by thinking that now I don’t have clinging, but it must be a characteristic of a reality appearing to sati. (At such a time), how can there be nimitta and anubyanjana, see?...’ I’ll look forward to more of your tapescripts....and Phil’s or anyone else’s. 3. Thank you also for your Anguttara post #47495 and the Dispeller quote on the cula-sotapanna (lesser stream-enterer). Again the cula-sotapanna has ‘obtained a foothold’ and is ‘of assured destiny’ when conditions are understood. And then like the ready ingredients on the table, when conditions are right, the various stages will be obtained. 4. Loved the definitions of terms #47439 and esp. the one for nibbana – ‘beyond me’!! 5. Sallakkhana in #43748 – often translated as ‘noticing’ as by Mahasi Sayadaw. Isn’t sallakkhana a synonym for panna or sampajanna? 6. Thanks also for the coloured strings, samphappalaapa (‘talking nonsense, or stringballs’) #45595, ‘to whom it concerns’ on Death #45924, and all your other great assistance. I would elaborate, but got distracted in arammana paccaya and we’re shortly meeting RobM live:). Best wishes for the granny-ing and many, many thanks again for all your help. If you don’t mind, we’ll touch base on dsg.org and book matters on our return. Metta, Sarah p.s hope the Sri Lanka cd arrived safely. ====== 47893 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: Hi Ken, thanks for summing this thing up. I also feel this way. Taken as personal, wanting is just tiding everything into some mental knot. Patience is needed to trust in the Path. metta, Agrios. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Agrios, Wanting is the first part to break the entangled cycle. Without wanting there will not be any motivation. Without motivation there will not be any movement. Without movement there will not be any achievement. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Some may think if they read 'self is reading', if they meditate 'self is meditating' and because of this they will never do anything except argument on self-non-self matter. 47894 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: flashes of something htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > [...] > > N: Vipaakacittas such as seeing experience an object through a > sensedoor, > > but the sense-doors do not produce vipaka, it is kamma that produces > vipaka. > > There are also vipaakacittas that experience result through the > mind-door, > > but these vipaakacittas are not the sense-cognitions such as seeing. > [...] > > Hi Nina, > > I am having problem imagining > "vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door" > Could you give me few simplest possible examples? > > thanks, > Agrios. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Agrios, At mind door these consciousness arise. Bhavanga citta, manodvaravajjana citta, javana citta, tadaarammana citta. So there are 4 kinds of citta that arise at mind door. 1. bhavanga citta (life continuing consciousness) 2. manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) 3. javana citta (impulsive consciousness) 4. tadaarammana citta (retaining consciousness) Cittuppaada = citta + uppaada. Uppaada means 'arise'. There are 10 cittuppaadas in manodvaara viithi vaara. 1. manodvara-avajjana citta 2. javana citta 1 3. javana citta 2 4. javana citta 3 5. javana citta 4 6. javana citta 5 7. javana citta 6 8. javana citta 7 9. tadaarammana citta 1 10.tadaarammana citta 2 The first citta is kiriya citta or functional consciousness. So it is not vipaaka citta or resultant consciousness. The last 2 cittas are vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness. In the middle are akusala cittas or kusala cittas or kiriya cittas depending on individual. None of these 10 consciousness are sense-cognition or panca-vinnaana citta. The last 2 consciousness are vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness and it is the answer what you have been looking for, I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47895 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) htootintnaing Dear Alice, Thanks for your message. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "balancing_life" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing > > As this an e-correspondence Buddhism course that i am taking, which > is sent weekly by one of the volunteers of the Mahindarama Temple, > and unfortunately, being a novice, i am unable to answer any of your > questions, thus i have forwarded them to the administrator or the > owner of this course, Mr. Tee Chee Seng, who will answer you in due > course, as he is a working man also, so it might take him a while to > answer all your questions. > > Thanks very much for your patience. > > With Metta > :} > AliceInThankingU4YourQuestionsLand 47896 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) - Missed out reply... htootintnaing Hi Htoo Persuant to my first reply... PPS - I always reply to emails/messages in response to any of the emails that i receive (unless i have missed .. .. my work is my only "rice-bowl"...so hoping you will understand my situation/circumstance. Peace & Namaste :} AliceInThankingU4YourUnderStandingLand -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Alice, Understandable. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47897 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 449 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 puthujana puggala or individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) 4. duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destination, rootless individual where many likesa arise) 11 puggala have been explained in the previous posts. There is an individual left to discuss. That is duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala. These individuals are those who are in 4 woeful planes of existence. These 4 planes of existence are 1. niriya bhuumi or hell realm 2. tiracchaana bhuumi or animal realm 3. peta bhuumi or ghost realm 4. asurakaaya bhuumi or demon realm Any being who is born at one of these 4 realms has patisandhi citta called 'ahetuka akusalavipaaka santirana citta'. This is the result of akusala actions done in the immediate past life as the last moment mental impulsion. This patisandhi citta does not have any root. There is no alobha, adosa, amoha. The cittas that can arise in these individuals are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas ( 7 akusala origin and 8 kusala origin) c) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas d) 8 mahakusala cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas do not arise) ---- 37 cittas Even though they are born with ahetuka patisandhi citta they can have naana-sampayutta kusala citta and they can be reborn in happy destination in the next life when they develop kusala at their near dying. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, and any support will be very valuable for all. 47898 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:42pm Subject: What is Right View ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this crucial Right View ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration But what is Right View ? Right View Ownership of Kamma: All beings are owners of their kamma, inherit their kamma, are born of their kamma, are created by their kamma, are linked to their kamma and any intentional action (=kamma) they do, whether good or bad, the effects of that, will be theirs, following them like a shadow, that never leaves... This is Right View! Right View of the Ten Phenomena: Giving alms has good effects, any self-sacrifice results in pleasure, small gifts are also beneficial.. There is resulting fruition thus of any good and bad behaviour!! There is moral efficacy of any relation to mother and father.. There is this world and there are other worlds!! There are beings who are spontaneously and instantaneously born.. There exist good & pure recluses & priests in this world, who having followed the right method of practice, themselves by their own supra-human abilities, have directly experienced the other worlds, and who explain them and thereby make them known here... This is Right View! Right View of the Four Noble Truths: Right view of such is Suffering... Right view of such is the Cause of Suffering... Right view of such is the End of Suffering... Right view of such is the Way to End Suffering... This is Right View! Any hypotheses that deny these, are wrong views... Further study: Majjhima Nikaya 9. Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html _______________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47899 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarah abbott who wrote: >S: Mind (mano) is a synonym for citta (consciousness). We read in the >texts such as the Atthasalini about how it's the forerunner of all states. >By 5 things, are you referring to the 5 khandhas? Mind is defined as momentary: Contact (phassa) Feeling (vedana) Perception (sanna) Intention (cetana) Attention (manasikara) Which of these precedes ? (hen or egg question!) Yet: From contact arises in parallel feeling and perception simultaneously. From these, is an intention formed (towards or away from object). From this intention, is attention directed to one of the sense doors. This attention thereby 'inputs' the next event of sense contact. etc. So it is intention, that 'creates' and 'selects' the phenomena, attention then 'fishes out' of reality by sense contacting... So: Yes Mind is the forerunner of all states... Yet more precisely within this compound mind: Intention is the 'initiator' & 'creator' of of all states. The active part so to speak. Thats why I rendered it so. : - ] 47900 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Bhante) - In a message dated 7/19/05 3:48:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Indeed. It is an experimental rendering: > BTW: How is Mind defined? As which 5 things? S: Mind (mano) is a synonym for citta (consciousness). We read in the texts such as the Atthasalini about how it's the forerunner of all states. By 5 things, are you referring to the 5 khandhas? Mano or citta is vinnana khandha. =========================== Bhante, were you perhaps referring to "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality," as in the Sammaditthi Sutta? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47901 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? upasaka_howard Hi again, Bhante - In a message dated 7/19/05 8:26:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... asks of Bhikkhu Samahita: Bhante, were you perhaps referring to "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality," as in the Sammaditthi Sutta? ==================== I should have waited a bit longer before writing, Bhante. I see that this was already answered in the affirmative by you. BTW, I found your discussion of this and your use of "intention" instead of "mind" in the "Mind is forerunner ... " statement very illuminating and interesting! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47902 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Bhante - > > In a message dated 7/19/05 8:26:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... > asks of Bhikkhu Samahita: > Bhante, were you perhaps referring to "Feeling, perception, volition, > contact and attention â€" these are called mentality," as in the Sammaditthi > Sutta? > ==================== > I should have waited a bit longer before writing, Bhante. I see that this > was already answered in the affirmative by you. BTW, I found your discussion > of this and your use of "intention" instead of "mind" in the "Mind is > forerunner ... " statement very illuminating and interesting! > > With metta, > Howard > Dear Friend Howard - I agree with you completely -- Ven. Samahita has a unique way to describe the mind (or mental processes?). To me his explanation seems to bridge the gaps between the suttas and Abhidhamma commentaries. Yours truly, Tep ========= 47903 From: "agriosinski" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Sometimes it's difficult not to enjoy the "honey tipped dart". Dan: [...] Something along the lines of what > I'm thinking? Viz: Restlessness makes the world go 'round -- and in more > ways than one. Without a whole bunch of restless people constantly doing > an enormous variety of high quality and energetic work to support us, we > wouldn't be communicating on the Internet, etc [...] nope. :) I have a feeling, restlessness is not helping these great people who gave us Internet, gasoline and honey. I'd say it draws them crazy, but I can only say from my own experience - it is nuisance, nothing more. On the other hand, the more I see dhammas, the more of reality is appearing, the more my little and beautiful imaginary world is shrinking. And it ain't pretty. Unpleasant vedanas arise... unknown is unpleasant, not as wished is unpleasant... etc. Then, there is knowledge - dhammas are of various kind and mind is chasing some, filtering experiences, wanting pleasures. I was hoping, this chase will end soon. Now I see, it is just one more wanting of Self. metta, Agrios 47904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard and Phil. nilovg Hi Howard (and Phil), I reflected a bit more on the two methods and also on your other posts about parts and wholes Phil reacted to. I just have a few remarks I would like to add to the two methods. I repeat: in Abhidhamma Studies by ven. Nyanaponika, p. 23: he calls internal relations those within a citta (the cetasikas > which condiiton the citta) and external relation the connections between > several of such units.... : the relative strength of the different mental factors within a single moment > of consciousness. This shows that the analytical method is as important for > the relational one, as the latter is for the first.> In the study of the Visuddhimagga, and now the study of all the cetasikas of the khandha of formations, I try all the time to consider not just one cetasika, but also the accompanying ones that influence and support it. All such details help me to understand more the conditionality of the dhammas concerned. This is just my personal inclination and interest. It is all on the level of intellectual understanding. During my early time with Kh. Sujin I was reading Ven. Nyanaponika's Abh. Sudies she had highly recommended. I asked whether we should not consider more the synthetical or relational method. She answered:< how can we understand the relational method if we do not understand the analytical method?> And here we come to the development of understanding of one object at a time. You also agreed that citta can cognize only one object at a time. I am thinking of the first baby steps. Otherwise we shall always stay with the theory. No need to *think* of subject and object I agree. But I believe we need very concrete examples of the dhammas that are to be known one at a time. Seeing is real for everyone and it experiences what appears through eyesense only. We hear these words, but they can be verified at this moment when there is actually seeing. Or hearing, this experiences sound. All these dhammas have to be verified just now, otherwise we shall always be stuck with the theory. More than a year ago you had an Abhidhamma day retreat. You were wondering about seeing, and if I remember correctly your teacher said to the people present to close their eyes and then open them. To give them an idea what seeing is, in a practical way. The subject of your retreat was seeing dhamma in dhamma. Very important. Not seeing self in dhamma. If we do not forget this, there is less danger for reifying. You wrote in your other post: Thus, I like to discuss more with you and Phil about the first baby steps. In the suttas we read many descriptions of dhammas, and at the same time they are an exhortation not to see them as theoretical descriptions, but objects of awareness and right understanding. Nina. 47905 From: "agriosinski" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something agriosinski Hi Htoo and Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" > wrote: > > > > Hi Ken, > > thanks for summing this thing up. > I also feel this way. Taken as personal, wanting is just tiding > everything into some mental knot. > Patience is needed to trust in the Path. > > metta, > Agrios. > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Agrios, > > Wanting is the first part to break the entangled cycle. Without > wanting > there will not be any motivation. Without motivation there will not > be > any movement. Without movement there will not be any achievement. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > Actually, in my case there is motivation without wanting. I try to explain on examples. It is twofold motivation: 1st - is trust in Dhamma. It arouse from practice and motivates to stay on the Path, return to the Path, learn Path, develop right understanding. Self or not-self I don't care :) 2nd - is seeing result. Result is less stress, more happiness in ones life. It arises slowly from just reflection. An example is like this: Have you ever changed school in the middle of the school year? You've been accustom to one school, teachers, felt good around and suddenly your parents moved to some far away location. You start new school, feeling totally lost. But after few years, even you do not really pay attention, being concentrated on your girlfriends (or maybe classes :) no matter. In any case - you just know whats going on around. There is sudden noise in the middle of the classes and you don't pay much attention because you just know it is library door doing it. > PS: Some may think if they read 'self is reading', if they > meditate 'self is meditating' and because of this they will never do > anything except argument on self-non-self matter. just thinking and more thinking. metta, Agrios. 47906 From: "agriosinski" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: [...] > > At mind door these consciousness arise. > > Bhavanga citta, manodvaravajjana citta, javana citta, tadaarammana > citta. So there are 4 kinds of citta that arise at mind door. > > 1. bhavanga citta (life continuing consciousness) > 2. manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) > 3. javana citta (impulsive consciousness) > 4. tadaarammana citta (retaining consciousness) > > Cittuppaada = citta + uppaada. Uppaada means 'arise'. There are 10 > cittuppaadas in manodvaara viithi vaara. > > 1. manodvara-avajjana citta > 2. javana citta 1 > 3. javana citta 2 > 4. javana citta 3 > 5. javana citta 4 > 6. javana citta 5 > 7. javana citta 6 > 8. javana citta 7 > 9. tadaarammana citta 1 > 10.tadaarammana citta 2 > > The first citta is kiriya citta or functional consciousness. So it is > not vipaaka citta or resultant consciousness. The last 2 cittas are > vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness. In the middle are akusala > cittas or kusala cittas or kiriya cittas depending on individual. > > None of these 10 consciousness are sense-cognition or panca-vinnaana > citta. The last 2 consciousness are vipaaka cittas or resultant > consciousness and it is the answer what you have been looking for, I > think. > Hi Htoo, thanks for this chart. It is WAY over my head. Initially I was under impresion Nina is saing there is no vipaka produced on the mind door. Then from the explanations I understand there is. It went like this: Agrios: < This things (flashes) seems to be kamma related, definitely Self made, > and the more carefully I observe them, the more there is of them. > Thinking about them leads nowhere, just more propositions to check out. > Experience is having profound impact on my life, literally ruling > big part of it.> ------- Nina: Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala cittas. So I agreed they are mostly akusala, as there is whole mass of moha, lobha and dosa, but I do not understand why they are not produced by kamma. It seemed to me Nina is saing that nothing in mind door is kamma produced. Now I think I don't understand sentence: "Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma" I think I was talking about flashes, and Nina about experiencing flashes? lost again, Agrios 47907 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > Hi Htoo and Ken, There is sudden noise in the middle of the classes and you don't > pay much attention because you just know it is library door > doing it. > > PS: Some may think if they read 'self is reading', if they > > meditate 'self is meditating' and because of this they will never do > > anything except argument on self-non-self matter. just thinking and more thinking. metta, Agrios. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Agrios, I know. So 'wanting' has different meaning. Because you said there is motivation without wanting. When I said , the meaning of wanting is intended for chanda or wish. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47908 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:35am Subject: Re: flashes of something htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: So I agreed they are mostly akusala, as there is whole mass of moha, lobha and dosa, but I do not understand why they are not produced by kamma. It seemed to me Nina is saing that nothing in mind door is kamma produced. Now I think I don't understand sentence: "Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma" I think I was talking about flashes, and Nina about experiencing flashes? lost again, Agrios -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Agrios, Do not be lost. There are 2 different mind-object in respect to the number of viithi citta or procession-consciousness. They are 1. vibhuuta arammana 2.avibhuuta arammana The first has 10 cittuppaadas or 10 moments as I described. But the 2nd has only 8 cittuppaadas or 8 moments. They are 1. manodvara-avajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) 2. javana citta ( 1 to 7 ) In the 2nd there is no vipaaka citta at all. The first has 2 vipaaka cittas and they are retaining consciousness. They just retain 'the thought'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47909 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion/ Valuable Disagreements buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan - The delineation of the discussion situation into 4 cases is useful. 1. Both agree on a right idea. 2. Both disagree and one is right. 3. Both disagree but they don't know the right answer. 4. Both agree on a wrong idea. >Tep: > The discussion in which you disagree with another person is possibly >more valuable than those that you end up in agreement. > Tep: I had Case 2 in mind when I said it was "possibly more valuable" than Case 1 or Case 4. But you commented : Evan: Case 2 is dangerous because the one with right view might change their view to the wrong view - not a good result. It can also cause heated discussion resulting in one or both of the individuals getting upset (as can case 3) therefore producing unwholesome results. Tep: You are right when the individuals are immature discussers. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I beg to differ. There are these 4 cases: > > 1. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which both > agree and both their views are right. > 2. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which they > disagree and one of their views is right and the other wrong. > 3. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which they > disagree and both their views are wrong. > 4. There is the case where 2 individuals have a discussion in which they > agree and both their views are wrong. > 47910 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard and Phil. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 7/19/05 10:34:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard (and Phil), I reflected a bit more on the two methods and also on your other posts about parts and wholes Phil reacted to. I just have a few remarks I would like to add to the two methods. I repeat: in Abhidhamma Studies by ven. Nyanaponika, p. 23: he calls internal relations those within a citta (the cetasikas > which condiiton the citta) and external relation the connections between > several of such units.... : the relative strength of the different mental factors within a single moment > of consciousness. This shows that the analytical method is as important for > the relational one, as the latter is for the first.> In the study of the Visuddhimagga, and now the study of all the cetasikas of the khandha of formations, I try all the time to consider not just one cetasika, but also the accompanying ones that influence and support it. All such details help me to understand more the conditionality of the dhammas concerned. This is just my personal inclination and interest. It is all on the level of intellectual understanding. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think the dual analytic-synthetic combined approach is a very good one. Also, I don't think your approach is solely intellectual. You always point out the importance of seeing what is actually happening right now! ---------------------------------------- During my early time with Kh. Sujin I was reading Ven. Nyanaponika's Abh. Sudies she had highly recommended. I asked whether we should not consider more the synthetical or relational method. She answered:< how can we understand the relational method if we do not understand the analytical method?> ------------------------------------- Howard: And vice-versa unless we risk getting caught in a belief in separate, independent entities. ------------------------------------- And here we come to the development of understanding of one object at a time. You also agreed that citta can cognize only one object at a time. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I believe that out of all the phenomena present at any time, there is only one that has the character of "object". ------------------------------------- I am thinking of the first baby steps. Otherwise we shall always stay with the theory. No need to *think* of subject and object I agree. But I believe we need very concrete examples of the dhammas that are to be known one at a time. Seeing is real for everyone and it experiences what appears through eyesense only. We hear these words, but they can be verified at this moment when there is actually seeing. Or hearing, this experiences sound. All these dhammas have to be verified just now, otherwise we shall always be stuck with the theory. --------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. --------------------------------------- More than a year ago you had an Abhidhamma day retreat. You were wondering about seeing, and if I remember correctly your teacher said to the people present to close their eyes and then open them. To give them an idea what seeing is, in a practical way. The subject of your retreat was seeing dhamma in dhamma. Very important. Not seeing self in dhamma. If we do not forget this, there is less danger for reifying. You wrote in your other post: Thus, I like to discuss more with you and Phil about the first baby steps. In the suttas we read many descriptions of dhammas, and at the same time they are an exhortation not to see them as theoretical descriptions, but objects of awareness and right understanding. ------------------------------------------ Howard: There *are* dhammas - sights, sounds, tastes, smells, mental phenomena, and they *do* occur, but they are not separate, independent, self-existent realities. Speaking analogically, the facets of a diamond are not imagined, but they are not separate realities either. ------------------------------------------ Nina. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47911 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: objects of desire and aversion /Sarah's Good Preaching buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - > > Thanks again for your kind comments and for all the other feedback from the others. As I said, I'll look forward to reading further discussions, > but try to resist butting in anymore:). > > Metta, > > Sarah Tep: Believe it or not, the thought that Sarah butts in (and it is annoying) has not occurred to me. You are just doing the job of an energetic moderator. With appreciation, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & all, > > Thank you for your helpful summary of my comments (not intended as a 'preaching' at all, but thank you all the same)....One clarification > inserted: > (snipped) > > ======== 47912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nilovg Dear Connie, Sarah answered some of your Q. already. op 18-07-2005 03:31 schreef connie op connieparker@...: >>> > per iryaba > kam li santati > kanat sanna > > 3 things which hinder the experiencing of the arising and falling away -------- N: the postures, iriyapada, we cling to me who is sitting. santati: continuation: a citta is succeeded by a following one but it seems to last. ga.na saññaa; remembrance of dhammas a a group. You take them for a whole. --------- > Read today in Dispeller considering 'that natural language': <<[1946-1961] > Discrimination of Language comes to have sound (words) as its object, not > a concept as its object [...] but when the ear is merely impinged upon, > the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways. But a text > announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated application. But > there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even if he > has learnt much.>> ------- N: We also studied this in the early days of our Visuddhimagga study (two years ago), one of the most difficult subjects. I remember the remark about the sound: impinging on the earsense. The natural language is Magadha or Pali. But indeed this Discrimination of Language is not for ordinary people. The Buddha knew exactly how to phrase an explanation of the dhamma. Also great disciples, but not to the same extent as the Buddha. Nina. 47913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heedfulness and the Five Faculties nilovg Hi Tep, heedfulness is often a translation of sati. Here it is, I believe, sati that guards the sensedoors. I did not have much time to study this part, but went over the Thai text and a little over the co. As you said, for 'meaning', in Pali attha, the Thai is better: prajod. Yes, one of the meanings of attha is benefit. Would that fit better here? The language and the way it is translated is so difficult. Nina. op 19-07-2005 00:07 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > What one quality(dhamma), when well established in the meditator's > mind, leads to developed five faculties(indriya)? > > The answer is heedfulness, according to SN XLVIII.56, Patitthita Sutta. > > "Monks, when one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties > are developed & developed well. Which one quality? Heedfulness. 47914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion nilovg Hi Evan, I would like to add something. op 19-07-2005 01:57 schreef Evan Stamatopoulos op evan.stamatopoulos@...: > For an "uninstructed worldling", the process is as follows: > > eye - visible form -> eye consciousness -> feeling -> craving -> > attachment > > For one more skilled at guarding the sense doors, the process is as > follows: > > eye - visible form -> eye consciousness ------ N:eye - visible form -> eye consciousness+ kusala cittas with paññaa that realizes the true nature of the dhamma that appears. Nina 47915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, Htoo answered. I could add something. op 18-07-2005 22:30 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > I am having problem imagining > "vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door" > Could you give me few simplest possible examples? >------ N: The examples are not so simple that is why I did not go into detail. The rebirth-consciousness experiences an object without being dependent on a doorway, it is door-freed vipaakacitta, produced by kamma. The bhavanga-citta is the same type as the rebirth-consciousness, also door-freed vipaakacitta. Nina. 47916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, A: It seemed to me Nina is saing that nothing > in mind door is kamma produced. Now I think I don't understand > sentence: > "Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma" > > I think I was talking about flashes, and Nina about experiencing > flashes? ------ N: I was thinking of the flashes and these are experienced by akusala cittas. After that Htoo and I tried to explain that also through the mind-door there are vipaakacittas. But this is very detailed. Nina. 47917 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heedfulness and the Five Faculties buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina {and Sarah, Howard, Ven. Samahita} - Guarding mind with heedfulness is the same as developing sati with sati and nana (knowledge) as stated in Breathing Treatise para 196: "Mindfulness is both the establishment (foundation) and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates the body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation (Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body is said'." Therefore, you are right to say: "Heedfulness is often a translation of sati. Here it is, I believe, sati that guards the sensedoors.." But the commentaries underestimate heedfulness by explaining appamaada as the presence of mindfulness, since Patitthita Sutta states that the other four faculties (in addition to Sati) also go to the culmination of their development because of heedfulness. Indeed, there is more to appamaada(heedfulness) than just mindfulness, as explained below. Dwell Heedfully and Phenomena will Become Manifest --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [The Buddha talked to Nandiya the Sakyan about heedfulness in SN LV.40 Nandiya Sutta: ] "And how, Nandiya, does a disciple of the noble ones live heedfully? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering confidence in the Awakened One... Not content with that unwavering confidence in the Awakened One, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering confidence in the Dhamma... unwavering confidence in the Sangha... virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. Not content with those virtues pleasing to the noble ones, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-040.html Kind regards, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > heedfulness is often a translation of sati. Here it is, I believe, sati that > guards the sensedoors. > I did not have much time to study this part, but went over the Thai text and > a little over the co. As you said, for 'meaning', in Pali attha, the Thai is > better: prajod. Yes, one of the meanings of attha is benefit. Would that fit > better here? The language and the way it is translated is so difficult. > Nina. 47918 From: "agriosinski" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Agrios, > A: It seemed to me Nina is saing that nothing > > in mind door is kamma produced. Now I think I don't understand > > sentence: > > "Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma" > > > > I think I was talking about flashes, and Nina about experiencing > > flashes? > ------ > N: I was thinking of the flashes and these are experienced by akusala > cittas. > After that Htoo and I tried to explain that also through the mind- door there > are vipaakacittas. But this is very detailed. > Nina. A OK. Then it is clear now. Thank you both very much. The way I see it, there is little of pleasant vedana when one understand things in more detail, so I think I'll cling to this flashes for some time to see whats up :) It was very unpleasant to see all this mess and not to know what it is and where it is from. At this point I see whole mass of unknown phenomena in various dependences and see mind picking, selecting them and classifying according to various clinging or something. It's a mess. At least now I can imagine what we would give up :) A mess made of things completely out of hand. metta, Agrios 47919 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Buddha’s great compassion: Thanks Nina & K Sujin antony272b2 Dear Nina, cc: Howard, Sarah, Rob K, Christine I started a thread on E-Sangha about how to learn to appreciate the Buddha's great compassion. Subconsciously I used to think He was just a great intellect and psychic who enjoyed cleverly winning over many people to his views. Bhikkhu Khantipalo (Lawrence Mills) wrote: "The four Divine Abidings: Loving-kindness, compassion, joy-with- others, and equanimity, bring two blessings: harmony within and peace with other people. Their importance in Buddhist practice cannot be over-emphasized. They are the educators of the heart or emotions and from a Buddhist point of view it will be better to be gentle and non- aggressive though lacking intellectual knowledge of Dhamma. Such a person shows that he has been tamed by the Dhamma of non-harming, but mere knowledge of the Dhamma divorced from practice makes only for conceit and an increase of views (ditthi)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/practice.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/1727 I searched google for about an hour with the query "Buddha's compassion". The fruits of my efforts came with the following gem. I'm writing to dsg about it to express my gratitude to K. Sujin and Nina for making available the following simple yet profound teaching. I think it should be in the beginner's section rather than being removed as being too advanced to keep on the site. I carry it around in my pocket to read when I need some inspiration. [quote=dhammapal,Jun 28 2005, 08:45 PM] Sujin Boriharnwanaket taught: If one studies the Suttanta one will see the Buddha's compassion. He taught the Dhamma to those who wanted to listen, he taught for the sake of their benefit and wellbeing. He wanted to help the listeners and did not want any misfortune to occur to them, no matter who they were. Even shortly before his final passing away he still taught the Dhamma to Subhadda who became the last disciple in the presence of the Buddha himself [45]. This clearly shows his great compassion. http://www.dhammastudy.com/merits4.html [/quote] I didn't realize that being compassionate is such an obvious choice to make, something that is within the reach of people with a past history of cruelty. If possible please pass on my gratitude to K Sujin and Nina. I may also seek out Lawrence Mills to thank him. In my own words I also wrote about the Buddha: [quote=dhammapal,Apr 20 2005, 07:57 PM] Maybe I need to appreciate the great mental effort required to explain the path all the way to enlightenment. It seems easy to share favorite suttas or commentaries that give pleasant feelings on hearing. To actually lead someone on to Nibbana is another matter. [/quote] For the rest of the fruits of my research: "Buddha's great compassion: I'm learning to appreciate it." http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=13712&hl= I go for refuge to the Compassionate Buddha I go for refuge to the True Dhamma I go for refuge to the Noble Sangha With metta / Antony. 47920 From: "agriosinski" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:44pm Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > In the 2nd there is no vipaaka citta at all. The first has 2 vipaaka > cittas and they are retaining consciousness. They just retain 'the > thought'. I think I got it now. I was initially thinking sanna does that. But sanna just marks, but cittas retain continuity. Complicated things. metta, Agrios 47921 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 0:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... onco111 Dear Sarah, I wonder about that ending of the Mulapariyaya sutta... After several pages of hearing about how the worldlings delight in this conception and that conception, how the trainees should not delight in this conception and that conception, and how the arahants do not delight in this conception and that conception because they are "free from lust through the destruction of lust." In this sutta, delighting in a conception is repeatedly referred to as a result of lack of understanding, so OF COURSE the bhikkhus in this sutta would not be described as delighting in the Buddha's words: "those bhikkhus did not delight in the Blessed One's words." It doesn't say that they were displeased or angry or indignant or offended or in any akusala state whatsoever. They simply did not "delight" in these particular conceptions, which is a sign of wisdom in this sutta. On another note, you write: "I believe there has to be a lot more wise attention and listening to clear descriptions of the khandhas, of namas and rupas and their distinction and so on. Without an understanding of conditioned dhammas, there will always be a wrong idea of what samma-vayama is and what right and wrong practice is." I think you are right that there has to be a lot of wise attention and listening and so on and so forth, but it is a bit presumptuous to say that someone needs to have "a lot more" when you don't have any idea how well developed their wisdom is. Metta, Dan And your postscript: "Just to emphasise that people often found the arahants or even the Buddha's talks 'irritating' or unpleasant. So, it's very, very natural that often what we mere worldlings say will often condition displeasure:)." No doubt that "pleasing to the ear" is not a reliable indicator of "wise words." 47922 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:48am Subject: A Question About Ven. Sumedha upasaka_howard Hi, all - I saw it claimed by two sources, one Theravadin, one Mahayanist, that it is said in the Dipankara Jataka that Venerable Sumedha, the future Buddha, was an arahant when he was a follower of Buddha Dipankara. Is anyone here sufficiently familiar with that Jataka tale to say whether or not that claim is true? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47923 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi Agrios, > > > > In the 2nd there is no vipaaka citta at all. The first has 2 vipaaka > > cittas and they are retaining consciousness. They just retain 'the > > thought'. > > I think I got it now. In another post you show that you get the reality as well, when you say "A mess made of things completely out of hand" The Buddha says to the ordinary man ".. this body, which is a living disease, a living boil, a living sting, a living Abyss of Hell, a living sickness.." As you have found, this reality is not in a book. The way to end this reality has been handed to us in a book, but it is not in the book. It goes like this. In the same way, Magandiya, were I to teach you Dhamma, saying: 'Thus is non-disease; thus is Nibbána,' you might understand 'Thus is non-disease; thus is Nibbána.' With the clearing up of your sight you might let go of your longing and love for the five stockpiled piles of Dukkha, but you might think: 'For a long time I have been done in, deceived, cheated by my mind, for, of a mind to get forms, I grasped, of a mind to get sense experience, I grasped, of a mind to get perception, I grasped, of a mind to get a personalized world, I grasped, of a mind to get consciousness, I grasped; grasping rebounded in living; living rebounded in birth; birth rebounded in old age and death, grief and lamentation, pain and misery and despair. Such was the origin of this whole mess of pain. I am so inspired, Good Gotama that I believe the Good Gotama could so teach me Dhamma that I could hope to rise above such murk. In this case then, Magandiya, make friends with good men; from making friends with good men, Magandiya comes hearing True Dhamma; from hearing True Dhamma, Magandiya, comes taking up the Dhamma within the Dhamma; from taking up the Dhamma within the Dhamma will come knowing for yourself, will come seeing for yourself that these are a disease, a boil, a sting but that here this disease, this boil, this sting can be uprooted absolutely. From the eradication of grasping, the eradication of living; from the eradication of living, the eradication of birth; from the eradication of birth, the eradication of aging and death, grief and lamentation, pain and misery and despair. Such is the eradication of this whole mess of pain. from http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/magandiya_spell.htm Kind Regards Herman 47924 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard and Phil. egberdina Hi Howard and Nina, > > And here we come to the development of understanding of one object at a > time. You also agreed that citta can cognize only one object at a time. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I believe that out of all the phenomena present at any time, there > is only one that has the character of "object". > ------------------------------------- Is there an "object" when there is no grasping? Kind Regards Herman 47925 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Herman: "seeing and visible object are not separate" Hi Herman, I would disagree with this. The way I understand it, seeing is _like_ visible object, but they are definitely separate. Otherwise there is no contact with the eye sensitive matter. Larry 47926 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion egberdina Hi Larry, Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Herman: "seeing and visible object are not separate" > > Hi Herman, > > I would disagree with this. The way I understand it, seeing is _like_ > visible object, but they are definitely separate. Otherwise there is no > contact with the eye sensitive matter. I would agree with you from the perspective of analysis, from the perspective of making a functional representation of how seeing works, from the perspective of thinking about seeing. Kind Regards Herman > > Larry 47927 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard and Phil. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/19/05 7:03:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard and Nina, > > And here we come to the development of understanding of one object at a > time. You also agreed that citta can cognize only one object at a time. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I believe that out of all the phenomena present at any time, there > is only one that has the character of "object". > ------------------------------------- Is there an "object" when there is no grasping? Kind Regards Herman =========================== Your question is a good one, Herman. The answer depends, i believe, on the sense of 'object' intended. The nama or rupa that is "object" of vi~n~nana in the dependent origination scheme is, IMO, an afflicted experience and is definitely a consequence of grasping - in particular, grasping as a separate entity - so that it seems to be an existent independent of all else, including the knowing of it. But there is another sense of 'object' that I consider unafflicted. When there is neither (sense of) subject nor object as independent entities, when there is no sense of a self-existent knower or an independent known, there still is experience. Several elements of that experience such as feeling, attention, surprise, joy, etc are not the central experiential content, but are concomitant (or accompanying) phenomena and do not have the character of "object". However one element, for example a sight or sound or pain, will be the central aspect or primary content of the experience, and it is that aspect that I refer to as having the character (or flavor) of "object" - it is what the experience is "about". So, for example, when I feel a cramp in my leg, a lot is experienced at the same time I believe. The pain, by which I mean the strong pressure or stinging or whatever, has the character of "object" and the unpleasant feeling associated with it does not - the unpleasantness *accompanies* the pain, it is part of the experience, but the objective content is the pain, and not the unpleasantness, which is concomitant. Purely as an aside, I also consider it possible that there might actually be several phenomena arising together, any one of which of which *could* serve as objective aspect of the experience (e.g., any of the rupas of the current "kalapa", when the content of the experience is physical), but, as determined by kamma and other conditions, only one of these rises to the level of conscious awareness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47928 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:01pm Subject: Relic is how arahant is known? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >> Even people who were close to arahats did not know that he was and > arahat. People had to know only after parinibbana of that arahat as > evidenced by miracle relics. > > > ========= Dear Htoo, Could you cite references saying that an arahant is known only after parinibbana because of miracle relics. Robert 47929 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:14pm Subject: Re: Buddha’s great compassion: Thanks Nina & K Sujin rjkjp1 Very nice Antony! In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Nina, > cc: Howard, Sarah, Rob K, Christine > > I started a thread on E-Sangha about how to learn to appreciate the > Buddha's great compassion. 47930 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Empty & ever repeating cycle of mental links bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Howard who wrote: >Intention as the 'creator' within mind statement very illuminating and interesting! This is basically what the 'individual robot being' are: An ever repeating conditioning cycle of mental events: contact => feeling & perception => intention => attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => new contact => new feeling & perception => new intention => new attention => universe after universe, eon after eon, life after life ... moment after moment! Monotonic..., Comic..., Tragic..., Futile..., & quite much Suffering .... IMHO ;-) Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47931 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:12pm Subject: What is Right Motivation ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this vital Right Motivation ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration But what is Right Motivation ? The Motivation for Withdrawal: Being motivated by a general absence of greed, craving, & desire! Being motivated to generous giving by relinquishing possessiveness. Being motivated to detach from the five sense-desires of urge for alluring and tempting sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touches... Being motivated to cut attachment to the five clusters of Clinging to forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and consciousness... Such radical renunciation is Right Motivation! The Motivation for Non-Ill-Will: Being motivated by universal friendliness, infinite goodwill, care, non-anger, hatelessness & a sympathy wishing and working for all sentient being's happiness, content, comfort, benefit & welfare... Such gentle kindness is Right Motivation! The Motivation for Harmlessness: Being motivated by absolute non-violence, absence of cruelty, & by compassionate pity, thereby offering all sentient beings guaranteed safety & protection from any evil, painful, bad or wrong treatment... Such giving of fearlessness is Right Motivation! The opposites of these advantageous intentions is Wrong Motivation... Further study: Majjhima Nikaya 117. Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Discourse on The Great Forty: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn117.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 47932 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? nichiconn Hi, Howard, Robert, All- rjkjp1@... writes: heart base arises dependent on the blood in the heart. If the blood was been circulated outside the body then heart base could arise there, or even in artifical blood. =================== more of this elementary alchemy, from an old science of meditation manual: About <> Part of mindfulness as to the body, base considerations devoted to which one <> [Vism, UTin, VIII-Recollections]. I find just "that rupa" food for thought, while the lungs (UTin Vism) "are tasteless, lustre-less {niroja: w/out nutritive essence}, like a mass of chewed straw". Some reach for 'that other rupa', the breath, but the <>, like <> balks and <>. I take a bite off the Dispeller's plate: <<1037: VIHARATI <193.2> ("dwells"): this illustrates the application of a certain one among the dwellings in the four postures. By interrupting the discomfort of one posture (iriyaapatha) by means of another posture, he carries on (harati), makes to proceed, the personality (attabhaava) which is getting off its track (apathamaana), is the meaning.>> What track? <> as near and far enemies crowd about to cheer on <> [UTin V chIX) or the blood on his own hand. But I am off-track. What is visible object to hadaya vatthu? peace, connie 47933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' by Ven. Samahita nilovg Hi Howard and all, We may wonder at first about Ven. Samahita's definition of mind. But let us see Ven. Nyanaponika's explanation in Abhidhamma Studies, from p. 47, about the Pentad of Sense impression. op 19-07-2005 14:24 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: quotes Sarah: > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: >>> Indeed. It is an experimental rendering: >> BTW: How is Mind defined? As which 5 things? > S: Mind (mano) is a synonym for citta (consciousness). We read in the > texts such as the Atthasalini about how it's the forerunner of all states. > By 5 things, are you referring to the 5 khandhas? Mano or citta is vinnana > khandha. > =========================== Howard: Bhante, were you perhaps referring to "Feeling, perception, volition, > contact and attention ‹ these are called mentality," as in the Sammaditthi > Sutta? ----- N:Howard, it is very Abhidhammic. In the list of the Dhammasangani (first book of Abhidhamma) there is the pentad: contact, feeling, perception, volition, citta. These represent the four nama-kkhandhas. Contact and volition represent the khandha of formations. Feeling and perception, saññaa, are a khandha each and citta is viñnnaakhandha. Thus, Howard, you are right, the cetasikas are called mentality in the Sammaditthi > Sutta. Ven. Nyanaponika refers, with regard tothe Pentad of sense impression, to suttas (S.N.XVIII, no 1): I could add to volition: the kusala or akusala cittas that react to visual object and can motivate kamma through body, speech and mind. Thus, when reading volition or intention, we think of kamma. Kamma is volition. Ven. Samahita uses the translation of intention for cetanaa. It is true: by kamma the world goes around. Kamma among the cetasikas that are sankhaarakkhandha forms the formed par excellence. Bhante wanted to highlight cetanaa because it is the most active in mundane consciousness. In this light we can understand the first verse of the Dhammapada:mind foreruns (all evil, and also all good) conditions. This verse mentions the results of kamma. Thank you Bhante: the ever repeating cycle. Nina. 47934 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:54am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 06 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movements' 4. 99 contemplation on 'body part' The first 3 kinds of contemplations have been talked in the previous post. So far 15 + 15 + 63 = 93 contemplations have been dealt with. 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part'. There are 32 things to be contemplated on the body. So there are 32 contemplations on the body. Like this the practitioner will have been perceiving on 32 body parts of other. So there will be another set of 32 contemplations. At a time, the practitioner will perceive that there are 32 parts of body in his or her own body and others' body. There are 3 extra contemplations on 'body part'. They are contemplation on origination, contemplation on dissolution, and contemplation on both origination and dissolution. So there will be 32 + 32 + 32 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 99 contemplations on 'body part'. What are these 32 body parts. They are 20 solid parts and 12 liquid parts. a) 20 solid parts (pathavii dhaatu or earth-element) 1. kesaa (hair) 2. lomaa (body-hairs) 3. nakhaa(nails) 4. dantaa(teeth) 5. taco (skin) 6. mamsam (flesh) 7. hnaaru (sinew_ligments) 8. atthi (bone) 9. atthiminjam(bone marrow) 10.vakkam (kidney) 11. hadayam (heart) 12. yakanam (liver) 13. kilomakam(membrane) 14. pihakam (spleen) 15. papphaasam (lung) 16. antam (intestine) 17. antagunam(mesentery) 18. udariyam (gorge_stomach contents) 19. kariisam (feces_rectum contents) 20. matthalungam (brain) b) 12 liquid parts (apo dhaatu or water element) 1. pittam (bile) 2. sehmam (phlegm) 3. pubbo (pus) 4. lohitam (blood) 5. sedo (sweat) 6. medo (mass of fat) 7. assu (tear) 8. vasaa(liquid fat) 9. khelo (saliva) 10.simghaanikaa (mucus) 11.lasikaa(synovial fluid) 12.muttam (urine) These are 32 different body parts that The Buddha described. In kaayaanupassana or contemplation on body these 32 body parts are contemplated. When a part is contemplated there arise a consciousness that directs to the idea of that body part. And the consciousness just stay for a while and then it passes away. When the consciousness has passed away the object also disappear. There are 3 extra contemplations when doing contemplations on body part. These 3 extra contemplations are 1. contemplation on origination 2. contemplation on dissolution 3. contemplation on origination and dissolution So there are altogether 99 contemplations on body parts. This meditation can bring up jhaana or absorption. But this contemplation on body is not intended for jhaana. This is evident by inclusion of 3 extra contemplations on body part, which are not related to jhaana or absorption. Some would say 'these 32 body parts' are pannatti and they are not the object of satipatthaana. These are what The Buddha preached in mahaasatipatthaana sutta (Digha Nikaaya DN 22). When the practitioner stays according to what The Buddha taught he is not depending on anything in this world on this earth and he is temporarily freed from binding and temporarily liberated when he or she is staying on contemplation on body. The Buddha said 'Bounded below by soles of feet, boundried above with hair, boardering covering by skin there are 32 different body parts inside of that skin-bag of body. Like a man, who has a good eye, who releases so called a bag full of different seeds and then contemplate on each kind of seed like this is 'rice', this is 'wheat', this is barley, etc etc, the practitioner (bhikkhu) has to stay contemplating this is 'hair', this is 'hairs', this is 'nail', this is 'tooth', etc etc. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47935 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 252- Attachment/lobha (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] There is lobha, not only when we want to obtain things, but also when we enjoy pleasant sights, sounds, smells, flavours, tangible objects and mental objects. Don’t we like softness while we are sitting or lying down? When we sit on a hard floor we have aversion, and when we sit in a comfortable chair we find it agreeable and then there is lobha. Are we not attached to temperature, to the temperature which is just right for us: not too hot, not too cold? When we drink coffee or tea we want it to be of the temperature we like. When eating and drinking we are attached not only to flavour, but also to temperature. And don’t we like the smell of our food, the sight of it and the softness or hardness of it? There is bound to be attachment through each of the six doors, time and again. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47936 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 450 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 kinds of individual. In all these individuals there have been arising various consciousness. Among them bhavanga cittas or life continuing consciousness are very subtle and hard to see. In a life there is 'combination of naama khandha and ruupa khandha' or 'combination of mental aggregates and material aggregates. Naama khandhas have to all depend on ruupa khandha. All naama khandha in a life have to depend on hadaya vatthu most of the time. Leaving ruupa khandha there are naama khandhas and they are 4 naama aggregates. Among them is vinaanakkhandhas. These vinnaana are all cittas. In a life the first citta is patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness. This moment just last a cittakkhana or 1 billionth second or just a single moment. So all beings in the womb or egg when identifiable as a being is no more at patisandhi or rebirth even though they have not been born. The last citta in a life is cuti citta or dying consciousness. In between these 2 cittas or patisandhi citta and cuti citta there are infinite cittas. During that period cittas arise taking the object of immediate past life's marana-asanna-javana cittas are all called bhavanga cittas or life continuing consciousness. Because they have to arise as there are still kamma that will give rise to bhava or existence and as each citta is part of a life these cittas are called bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga = bhava + anga Bhava means 'existence' and anga means 'limb' or 'part'. But while these cittas are arising in serial manner like the flow of a running river there may arise objects. When there arise object the flowing consciousness are disturbed. And then stop. As soon as it stops there arise a series of consciousness that directs to the current object. BBBB B1 B2 B3 P C S T V J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 D1 D2 BBBBBBBB B represents bhavanga citta. PCSTVJD are 7 different consciousnessness. But all these 7 kinds of consciousness are not bhavanga cittas. As they arise in procession in a serial manner they are called cittas-in-procession or vithi cittas. P is panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness. C is an example of panca-vinnaana citta or 5-sense-consciousness. Here C stands for cakkhu-vinnaana citta or eye-consciousness. S is sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness. T is santirana citta or investigating consciousness. V is votthapana citta or determining consciousness. This determining consciousness is function-related name and this function of determination is done by the citta called mano-dvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. J is javana citta or impulsive consciousness or consciousness in mental impulsion. These javana cittas almost always arise in 7 successive moments. So among vithi cittas these 7 cittas are the most prominent and they are recognizable if the mind is well trained to see these cittas. D is taDaarammana citta or retention consciousness. These citta tadaarammana cittas are all vipaaka cittas. So are foregoing cittas before javana cittas except manodvara-avajjana and pancadvara- avajjana citta, who are kiriya cittas or functional consciousness and here they are ahetuka kiriya cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very valuable for all. 47937 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No grasping and object. nilovg Hi Herman and Howard, Yes, Howard explained very well about object. I would like to add something about non-grasping Herman mentioned. Herman: Is there an "object" when there is no grasping? op 20-07-2005 05:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > However one element, for example a sight or sound or pain, will be the central > aspect or primary content of the experience.. The pain, by which I mean the strong > pressure or stinging or whatever, has the character of "object" ------ N: It is more complex than we would think. Pressure (the Element of Wind) is rupa and it can cause the nama which is painful bodily feeling. When we say pain, we are bound to confuse nama and rupa, I do! Here lies the trouble as I believe: we are so used to think in the way we always did. We define, even if we do not think in words. There may be a very quick noticing. Likely with subtle clinging. We are bound to cling to my pain, it is mine. Sometimes sati may arise and this is the way to get used to different characteristics without naming them, no noticing, no defining. This is rupa which does not experience anything, this is nama which feels or experiences, but no thinking about them. Now I come to Herman's non- grasping. First we have to know grasping, and in the above we can see an example of subtle clinging to self, mine. Then we are taking the first baby steps: not trying to define or know anything, not trying to have sati. It can arise because of its own conditions: listening with understanding of what one hears. Here is a beginning of non-grasping or detachment. It is important to have the right beginning, otherwise we accumulate more and more clinging. Detachment develops together with insight, they go together. In the course of development, paññaa turns away from conditioned dhammas and bends towards the unconditioned dhamma, and that means the end of grasping. But lokuttara citta has an object: nibbaana. There are objects that are not objects of clinging: nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it. All other objects, even kusala, can be objects of clinging. For the arahat who has reached the end of the cycle there is no more rebirth, no more arising of nama and rupa. When citta does not arise, there is no experiencing of objects. Whenever citta arises, it experiences an object. Nina. 47938 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha nilovg Hi Howard, I could not trace that Jataka. But Sumedha, the future Buddha Gotama, could never be an arahat when he declared to the Buddha Diipankara his intention to attain Buddhahood in the future. Nina. op 20-07-2005 00:48 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Hi, all - > > I saw it claimed by two sources, one Theravadin, one Mahayanist, that it > is said in the Dipankara Jataka that Venerable Sumedha, the future Buddha, was > an arahant when he was a follower of Buddha Dipankara. Is anyone here > sufficiently familiar with that Jataka tale to say whether or not that claim > is true? 47939 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha’s great compassion: Thanks Nina & K Sujin nilovg Dear Antony, I appreciate your kusala. What would we be without the Dhamma? The more we study it and learn to apply it, the more we appreciate the Buddha's compassion. NIna. op 19-07-2005 21:38 schreef Antony Woods op antony272b@...: > Sujin Boriharnwanaket taught: > If one studies the Suttanta one will see the Buddha's compassion. He > taught the Dhamma to those who wanted to listen, he taught for the > sake of their benefit and wellbeing. He wanted to help the listeners > and did not want any misfortune to occur to them, no matter who they > were. Even shortly before his final passing away he still taught the > Dhamma to Subhadda who became the last disciple in the presence of > the Buddha himself [45]. This clearly shows his great compassion. 47940 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:50am Subject: Full Moon Day Gift htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, On this day of full moon day, in the evening The Buddha Siddhattha Gotama preached wheel turning Dhamma or Dhamma-cakkavavattana sutta to His first 5 disciples or panca vaggii namely Konda~n~na, Baddiya, Vappa, Mahaana.m, and Assaji in the deer park called '' Isipatana '' on the full moonday of 4th month of Buddha calendar or on the 60th day of Buddhahood as Brahma King '' Sahampati '' requested. Ananda retold his first-hand knowledge of The Buddha first discourse as he heard through his own ears from the live Buddha. Ananda answered this discourse to Mahakassapa and attenders of the first Sangha Council ( Sanghayana ). Once , Bhagava, when He was in the deer park ' Isipatana ' in Varanasi, said to His first five disciples at the foot of Bodhi-tree ( Banyan ): '' O Monks! Those who have been ordained have to avoid two extreme things which are extremely bad in terms of Way for liberation. The first is called ' Kamasukhallikanuyogo ' which arises along with sensural pleasure as boosted by Chandha Raga and Tanha. '' '' And the second is called 'Attakilamathanuyogo ' which arises along with self tortures such as sleeping on thorns, non-justifiable avoiding eating of enough food for health etc. These two extremes are to be avoided if one intends for liberation.'' '' After avoiding these two extremes, you have to hold the middle path called ' Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path. Following this path will already exclude two extremes. This path comprises Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi. All these 8 factors are Magganga or parts of the path.'' '' Jati, Jara, Vyadhi, Marana, accompanying with hatred ones, departing from beloved ones, not obtaining what one wants, five Upadanakkhandha or 5 clingings are all Dukkha. Realising all these as Dukkha is the first Ariya's Sacca called Dukkha Ariya's Sacca.'' ''Kama Tanha or sensual desire, Bhava Tanha or desire for eternal life and Vibhava Tanha or desire of complete ceasation of all after death are all the cause of Dukkha and this Tanha or Samudaya becomes the second Ariya's Sacca which has to be eradicated.'' '' There is a state that completely ... free of all forms of Dukkha, ...devoid of any Dukkha ...exists as ceasation of all Dukkha ...releases all attachment and clinging ...totally deserts all Tanha hooked things ...escapes from all forms of Dukkha ...stays absolutely detached to anything. That state is called Nibbana. This state of ceasation becomes the third Ariya's Sacca. '' ' Ariya Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path is called Majjimapatipada or the middle path, which refrains from two extremes of Kamasukhallikanuyogo or staying with sensual pleasure and Attakilamathanuyogo or staying self torturing.This path is called Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada or simply 'suffering ceasing path practice '. This Noble Eightfold Path becomes the fourth Ariya's Sacca.'' Tathagata continued.. '' O Monks! I have got eye-sight ( Cakkhu ) into these matters, knowledge ( Nana ) of these matters,realization ( Panna ) of these matters at their full length, penetrative wisdom ( Vijja ) to these matters, and a bright light that strikes away all darkness that hides these Sacca.'' '' O monks! I have got the wisdom that can reveal complete picture of Dukkha, this is Dukkha, this Dukkha has this dimension, it is not more than this dimension and it is not less than this dimension and I have got the wisdom that figures out any Dukkha.'' '' Such things which I have never known before now come to me as I have got eye-sight, knowledge, realization at full length, penetrative wisdom and the bright light casting on Sacca.'' '' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.'' '' O Monks! The state called Nibbana is devoid of all forms of Dukkha. I have seen it with my mind-eye. Nibbana can be ' Sa-Upadisesa ' that is when alive being realization of that state and ' Anupadisesa ' that is total extinguishment of all fire of Dukkha which comes next to death.'' '' Nibbana can be called ' Sunnata Nibbana ', or ' Animitta Nibbana ' or ' Appanihita Nibbana '. These three are states and they arise from how Ariyas see the Dhamma on their path. If they view with Anatta Sanna ( recognition as Anatta ), Nibbana becomes Sunnata Nibbana. If see with Anicca Sanna ( recognition as Anicca ), Nibbana is Animitta Nibbana and if with Dukkha, it becomes Appanihita Nibbana.'' '' O Monks! I have realized the ceasation of all Dukkha through Magga Nana, Phala Nana, Paccavakkhana Nana. This state of ceasation of all Dukkha or Nibbana becomes the third Ariya's Sacca.'' '' O Monks! The fourth Sacca is Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Ariya's Sacca. It is Noble eightfold Path or Ariya Atthingiko Maggo. This path is to be maintained in the state of increasing amount and make abundant and proliferate and to be practised.'' '' O Monks! As long as I have not seen all these Sacca, I have not admitted that I have seen these. When I have realized all, I admit that I have realized all these Dhamma through Arahatta Magga Nana and Sabbannuta Nana. My this very life is the last life in Samsara and I definitely will not have any more rebirth.'' The first five disciples all liked the first discourse and they wailed Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! aloud. Kondanna became Sotapam immediately after the discourse and he asked for monkhood under The Buddha Sasana or teachings. The Buddha allowed him and called him '' Come on Bhikkhu '' and Kondanna became the very first member of Sangha in The Buddha Sasana. After the discourse, earth Deva wailed that '' Gotama The Buddha has preached Dhammacakkappa, which no other Satta can never ever ever can do so. This wailing spread to Catu Maharaja Deva realm, Tavatimsa Deva realm, Yama Deva realm, Tusita Deva realm, Nimmanarati Deva realm, Paranimmitavassavati Deva realm and Brahma realms. The Buddha announced that Kondanna realized Ariya Sacca through Sotapatti Magga. Since then Kondanna became '' Annasi Kondanna ''. The 1st waning day was the day for Vappa, the 2nd for Baddiya, the 3rd for Mahanama and the 4th for Assaji that they all each became Sotapams on their specific days. The Buddha preached the second discourse '' Anattalakkhana Sutta '' on the 5th waning day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar. All five disciples became Arahats at the end of the second discourse. The first five disciples were all Arahats so did next hundreds and thousands of ordained disciples all these sattas constituted Sangha group. May you all be able to realize Four Ariya's Noble Truths in this very life. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47941 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:00am Subject: Difference in Sa.myojana or Fetters htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 sa.myojanas or 10 fetters. They are 1. ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' The first 3 are eradicated by sotapatti magga naana or stream- entering path-knowledge. The middle 2 fetters are thinned out by sakadagami magga naana or once-returning path-knowledge and eradicated by anagami magga or non-returning path-knowledge. The last 5 fetters are eradicated by arahatta magga naana or eradicating path- knowledge. There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhamma according to abhidhamma and the difference is that uddhacca is not counted as samyojana and there will left 9 samyojana. In these 9 samyojanas, 2 samyojanas are combined as bhavaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire on existence'. So there left 8 samyojanas. Abhidhamma counts 'issaa' or 'jealousy' and 'macchariya' or 'stinginess' as samyojana. So these 2 samyojanas are added to 8 samyojanas as calculated above. So in abhidhamma there will be 10 samyojanas and they are _ 1. ditthi samyojana (fetter of self-identity) 2. silabbataparaamaasa samyojana (fetter of ritualistic wrong-belief) 3. vicikicchaa samyojana (fetter of suspicion or doubt) 4. issaa samyojana (fetter of jealousy or envy) 5. macchariya samyojana (fetter of stinginess) 6. kaamaraaga samyojana (fetter of sensuality) 7. patigha samyojana (fetter of aggression or ill-will) 8. bhavaraaga samyojana (fetter of desire on existence) 9. maana samyojana (fetter of conceit) 10.avijjaa samyojana (fetter of ignorance) In this 'abhidhamma set of 10 samyojanas' the first 5 fetters are eradicated by sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge. This happens. Because sotapam-to-be is living independent of self- identity. When this becomes mature this self-identity is eradicated by sotapatti magga naana. How to live independent of self-identity is beautifully described in mahasatipatthaana sutta. As there is no self-identity at all, sotapams destroy ditthi- samyojana. The 2nd samyojana is also ditthi-related and when there is no ditthi then this samyojana is destroyed. Again this right view on dhamma and clear understanding on selflessness leads to total clearance of all suspicion on Dhamma and this destroys the 3rd samyojana. The 4th and 5th samyojanas are both dependent on the idea of self. That is issaa samyojana arises because of wrong-view of self-identity that there is one self and that self is better than his self. When self-identity is eradicated then issaa cannot arise any more. The 5th samyojana is dependent also on self-indentity. It arises because one does not want to share his own to others, where both his self and others' selves are dependent on idea of self. When self- identity is eradicated then there is no more macchariya or stinginess. The middle 2 samyojanas of kaamaraaga and patigha are thinned out by sakadaagaami magga naana or once-returning path-knowledge. Because of this once-returner are lighter than sotapam in the weightage of kaamaraaga and patigha samyojana. But sakadagams are still having kaama raaga or sexual desire and patigha or aggression. Anagami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge eradicate these 2 samyojana and anagams are free of kaama raaga and patigha. So anagams will not have any sexual desire and they will not have any hatred or aggression or ill-will. The last 3 fetters of bhavaraaga samyojana, maana samyojana and avijjaa samyojana are eradicted only by arahatta magga naana or 'eradicating path-knowledge'. When there are no more samyojana or no more fetter then individual is no more bound to any further existence. So they will not be reborn again and as soon as they die there is no more traces of any regarding those individuals arahats. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47942 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:14am Subject: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... sarahprocter... Dear RobM & Friends, Yesterday we had an unexpected and very enjoyable get-together with RobM as he passed through Hong Kong en route to Tokyo where he’ll be meeting Phil & Naomi. We spent just under two hours sitting in a hotel lounge with piano music in the background, sipping tea and discussing ‘neat’ dhamma for the whole time. Now we know each other quite well and we agreed to skip all chit-chat and get down to some controversial topics. When I arrived, he and Jon were already having a discussion about developing good habits in one’s work and daily routine. He repeated his toll-booth smiles example and also the example of giving his Abhidhamma lectures. Was it really the forced idea of self in the first example and the conceit in the second which led to the development of metta and sharing of dhamma? Rob suggested in a similar way that any wrong views associated with a meditation practice might similarly lead to good results. Would KenH buy this, he wondered? I very much doubted it. The kusala involved when one is helpful or shares dhamma or sits in the forest is in spite of, not a result of, the wrong views and conceits arising at other times. We think we know about causes and results, but conditions are far more complex than our conventional and situational understanding of them. There was talk about attending to particular objects which smacked of an idea of control again, rather than an understanding of conditioned dhammas. There was a lot of discussion about the Satipatthana Sutta – is there really any order in which dhammas should be known or activities followed? I think that at the conclusion RobM was seriously considering the possibility that the listeners were being encouraged to develop satipatthana according to their lifestyles, not according to someone else’s lifestyle. Should one really stop certain activities like sipping tea in a noisy lounge or cooking, as a bhikkhu does, in order to reduce lobha? Or should one develop more awareness whilst cooking, whilst sitting in a noisy piano lounge distracted by different voices, while rushing to the airport and following one’s normal duties? Again who was the Buddha talking to when he spoke about anapanasati? Why weren’t all bhikkhus and all laypeople told to focus on the breath if this was step one, Jon asked? ‘A bhikkhu gone (having gone) to the forest, to the foot of a tree....’, not ‘go to the forest, to the foot of a tree’....Isn’t this as description of the lifestyle of such a bhikkhu? More on sitting under the tree versus talking with difficulty and lots of distractions. Is awareness really easier in one situation? Who wants to have more awareness at that time of thinking another place would be more suitable? More on Ken H’s comments which Rob has been reflecting on....:). What kind of meditation would Rob recommend to Phil? Not an easy question. I suggested it could be present moment meditation. Right then as we were talking, however noisy it was, there was seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, hardness and other dhammas being experienced. Also, disturbance, restlessness, attachment and other mental factors. They are just as real as those in the forest. The whole world is at this very moment, appearing through one door-way and then gone. Rob also brought up highway driving with similar concerns about whether there really could be awareness at such times. When there’s firm understanding of namas and rupas, clearly intellectually at this moment, awareness develops and understanding grows so there’s less and less doubt about this or that time and situation. And also, joy and tranquility in meditation, suicide, Nanavira and the Vinaya on this, the danger of wrong views, the relationship with the mind....When one is less distracted, is one closer to the mind....learning about ‘individual grains of sand’? Discussion on the Mulapariyaya Sutta...a changing perspective of the same dhammas....hardness appearing now as hardness...no self at all..... And in conclusion, awareness in normal daily activities, whatever the accumulations....whatever the vipaka....even if lightning strikes....:/ Many, many thanks to Rob for sharing some of his precious time, coming over to see us after really having had lightning strike the night before in his hotel room. He’d been working on his computer at 2am when his computer got ‘fried’ in a flash unfortunately.* Over to Tokyo and looking forward to hearing about the discussions there. Rob, this is a rushed summary-- feel very free to correct any misrepresentations or further comments of your own. Hope you've managed to retrieve your data. Metta, Sarah *Rob arrived for the hottest day of the year. Rob, ‘The observatory said there were 4,593 lightning strikes between 1am and 3am, or 38 a minute.’ Apparently ‘it recorded more than 800 strikes in one minute at about 2am.’ =========== 47943 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' by Ven. Samahita sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, Howard, Larry & Nina, “Manopubba’ngamaa dhammaa...” Perhaps I've misunderstood some of your comments, but as I suggested, I really think mano refers to citta (consciousness/mind) and not to cetana(intention). A few quotes for your further consideration as they relate to this and the other thread with Larry and others: Atthasaalinii, Analysis of Terms (PTS): “By ‘consciousness’ (citta) is meant that which ‘thinks of’ its object, is aware variously” (cittan ti aaramma.na.m cinteti ti citta.m vijaanaati ti attho). ... “But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone...........But it may be said that consciousness has arisen in the sense of a forerunner (pubba’ngamatthena). For in worldly phenomena consciousness is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner.” .... “Not merely in the explanation of the Vinaya, but also in some other lay discourses has he shown mind to be the principal. Even as he said, ‘Bhikkhus, whatever states are immoral, pertain to the immoral, take sides with the immoral, all are led by mind; of these states mind arises first’ (Dhp, ver 1,2) “ ‘consciousness leads, rules, makes all modes of mind. And whoso speaks or acts with evil mind, Him evil follows as the wheel the ox......’.” ***** And from Atthasaalinii, Moral consciousness in the Worlds of Sense (PTS): “Mind (mano) is minding(manute), that is, it discerns (cognizes)[vijaanaati]. But the authors of the Commentary say: like measuring by the naa.li or balancing by a great weight, mind knows the object (aaramma.na.m jaanaatii ti mano). It exercises government (over associated states) by the characteristic of measuring, hence it is a controlling faculty (indriyam), giving the compound ‘mind-faculty’(manindriyam). It is just a synonym for consciousness (citta) mentioned above. (Dhs 18).” ***** From ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’ by A.Sujin, translated by Nina: “We read in the “Atthasåliní” (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 112) about the specific characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of citta. Its characteristic is cognizing an object. Its function is being a forerunner, precursor. It is like a town-guard, seated at cross-roads in the middle of town. He notes each townsman or visitor who comes, that is, the object. Thus it is the chief or leader in knowing an object. It has connection as manifestation. We read: ”The citta which arises next does so immediately after the preceding citta, forming a connected series.” Cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. The proximate cause of citta is nåma-dhammas and rúpa-dhammas. Citta is a conditioned dhamma, saòkhåra dhamma. Conditioned dhammas cannot arise singly, and thus, citta does not arise without accompanying cetasikas. In the planes of existence where there are five khandhas, citta is dependent on nåma-dhammas as well as rúpa-dhammas as proximate cause for its arising. In the planes where there is only nåma, in the arúpa brahma planes, citta has as proximate cause for its arising only nåma-dhammas, cetasikas.” ***** Finally, a note in Daw Mya Tin’s translation of the Dhammapada: “Manopubba’ngamaa dhammaa: All mental phenomena have Mind as their forerunner in the sense that Mind is the most dominant, and it is the cause of the other three mental phenomena, namely, feeling (vedana), Perception (sa~n~naa) and Mental Formations or Mental Concomitants (sa’nkhaara). These three have Mind or Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) as their forerunner, because although they arise simultaneously with Mind they cannot arise if Mind does not arise. (The Commentary)." ***** I hope these are useful. Metta, Sarah ======= 47944 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:53pm Subject: ideal renderings... bhikkhu_ekamuni Hi friend Tep: Some IMHO ideal renderings: Sati = Awareness Appamaada = Alertness Pamaada = Neglect Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47945 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' by Ven. Samahita buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - Thank you for your thorough research on mano/citta/vinnana from the perspective of an Abhidhammika. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ven Samahita, Howard, Larry & Nina, > > "Manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa..." > > Perhaps I've misunderstood some of your comments, but as I suggested, I really think mano refers to citta (consciousness/mind) and not to cetana(intention). > > A few quotes for your further consideration as they relate to this and the other thread with Larry and others: > > Atthasaalinii, Analysis of Terms (PTS): > > "By `consciousness' (citta) is meant that which `thinks of' its object, is > aware variously" (cittan ti aaramma.na.m cinteti ti citta.m vijaanaati ti > attho). ... > "But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying `the king has arrived,' it is clear that he does not come alone...........But it may be > said that consciousness has arisen in the sense of a forerunner > (pubba'ngamatthena). For in worldly phenomena consciousness is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner." > .... > "Not merely in the explanation of the Vinaya, but also in some other lay discourses has he shown mind to be the principal. Even as he said, > `Bhikkhus, whatever states are immoral, pertain to the immoral, take sides with the immoral, all are led by mind; of these states mind arises first' (Dhp, ver 1,2) > > " `consciousness leads, rules, makes all modes of mind. > And whoso speaks or acts with evil mind, Him evil follows as the wheel the ox......'." > ***** > And from Atthasaalinii, Moral consciousness in the Worlds of Sense (PTS): > > "Mind (mano) is minding(manute), that is, it discerns (cognizes) [vijaanaati]. But the authors of the Commentary say: like measuring by the naa.li or balancing by a great weight, mind knows the object (aaramma.na.m jaanaatii ti mano). It exercises government (over > associated states) by the characteristic of measuring, hence it is a > controlling faculty (indriyam), giving the compound `mind- faculty'(manindriyam). It is just a synonym for consciousness (citta) mentioned above. (Dhs 18)." > ***** > From `Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by A.Sujin, translated by Nina: > > "We read in the "Atthasåliní" (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 112) about the > specific characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of > citta. Its characteristic is cognizing an object. > Its function is being a forerunner, precursor. It is like a town-guard, > seated at cross-roads in the middle of town. He notes each townsman or visitor who comes, that is, the object. Thus it is the chief or leader in knowing an object. > > It has connection as manifestation. We read: "The citta which arises next does so immediately after the preceding citta, forming a connected series." Cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. > The proximate cause of citta is nåma-dhammas and rúpa-dhammas. Citta is a conditioned dhamma, saòkhåra dhamma. Conditioned dhammas cannot arise singly, and thus, citta does not arise without accompanying cetasikas. In the planes of existence where there are five khandhas, citta is dependent on nåma-dhammas as well as rúpa- dhammas as proximate cause for its arising. In the planes where there is only nåma, in the arúpa brahma planes, citta has as proximate cause for its arising only nåma-dhammas, cetasikas." > ***** > Finally, a note in Daw Mya Tin's translation of the Dhammapada: > > "Manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa: All mental phenomena have Mind as their forerunner in the sense that Mind is the most dominant, and it is the cause of the other three mental phenomena, namely, feeling (vedana), > Perception (sa~n~naa) and Mental Formations or Mental concomitants (sa'nkhaara). These three have Mind or Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) as their forerunner, because although they arise simultaneously with Mind they cannot arise if Mind does not arise. (The Commentary)." ***** > I hope these are useful. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Tep: Of course, it is very useful. Have you ever thought of getting a job with a Buddhist's encyclopedia publisher ? Warm regards, Tep ================ 47946 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... nilovg Dear Sarah, What an excellent report and so lively. Almost as if I was present. The number of topics you went through! And always the talk on awareness now, no matter what one is doing. I liked this: suggested it could be present moment meditation. Right then as we were > talking, however noisy it was, there was seeing, visible object, hearing, > sound, hardness and other dhammas being experienced. Also, disturbance, > restlessness, attachment and other mental factors. They are just as real > as those in the forest. The whole world is at this very moment, appearing > through one door-way and then gone.> Thank you. Nina. op 20-07-2005 12:14 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...:> > We spent just under two hours sitting in a hotel lounge with piano music > in the background, sipping tea and discussing neat’ dhamma for the whole > time. Now we know each other quite well and we agreed to skip all > chit-chat and get down to some controversial topics. 47947 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:39am Subject: Question: Spurious Sourcing? upasaka_howard A name is imposed on what is thought to be a thing or a state and this divides it from other things and other states. But when you pursue what lies behind the name, you find a greater and greater subtlety that has no divisions. Atoms of dust are not really atoms of dust but are merely called that. In the same way, a world is not a world but is merely called that. -Visuddhi Magga From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000. Reprinted by arrangement with Shambhala Publications, Boston, www.shambhala.com. Hi all - While I like the quote a lot, and it fits right in with my recent speaking of no separate entities, I *strongly* doubt that the VSMG is the source of this! It isn't, is it? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47948 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/20/05 5:44:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I could not trace that Jataka. But Sumedha, the future Buddha Gotama, could never be an arahat when he declared to the Buddha Diipankara his intention to attain Buddhahood in the future. Nina. ======================== Yes, that was my understanding of the Theravadin perspective. The claim with regard to the Dipankara Jataka contradicts that, allowing as it does for an arahant to willfully be reborn multiple times in order to perfect all the paramitas and eventually attain Buddhahood. It would be good to know what is actually in that Jataka story in this regard. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47949 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... philofillet HI Sarah, Rob and all Great report. I'm looking forward to meeting Rob. As it happens, there were thunderstorms today as well, of a different support, as Naomi had another go at me for spending too much time on Dhamma. It may be that I will have to stop posting here as a concession, because I'm certainly not going to give up studying suttas and listening to Dhamma talks. Meditation is certainly out of the question for me now, irregardless of right or wrong view involved, for the domestic reasons above, but I am curious to read about the tradition Rob practices in, and who knows what will happen in the future. I've asked him to lend me some books. I've still been thinking about the tollbooth metta, and haven't come to see things any differently than I did when I posted back then - I simply don't see how we can generate metta so easily. Is it possible that thinking about metta can condition the arising of metta? That is something to consider and discuss. My main interest is to discuss natural decisive support condition. In Rob's book he writes of the frequency, intensity, recenctness of conditioning factors being important in their conditioning power. This makes sense to me, but I haven't come across it yet in A. Sujin's talks. I would also like to talk about my current thinking that reflecting on suttas can be condition for supporting abstention from transgression in a way that it cannot so directly in developing satipatthana. We'll see how much of this gets talked about. I would like to talk with Rob about more daily topics and get to know him, especially if Naomi comes along. He tells me he will be coming to Japan quite often in the months to come, so there will be several opportunities for these talks. In any case, looking forward to it and I will make a report on Saturday. And also hopefully get back to Howard and Herman - they have given me interesting posts to reflect on. Metta, Phil 47950 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashes of something htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Agrios, > Htoo answered. I could add something. > op 18-07-2005 22:30 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > > > > I am having problem imagining > > "vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door" > > Could you give me few simplest possible examples? > >------ > N: The examples are not so simple that is why I did not go into detail. > The rebirth-consciousness experiences an object without being dependent on a > doorway, it is door-freed vipaakacitta, produced by kamma. The > bhavanga-citta is the same type as the rebirth-consciousness, also > door-freed vipaakacitta. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dear Agrios, Nina and all, Rebirth consciousness, life-continuing consciousness, dying- consciousness are all door-free consciousness. They do not arise at any of 6 doors. They do not arise at eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and even in mind. So they are called door-free consciousness. I think someone or more here will have question on these matter. In mind-door procession of consciousness there are 10 moments that are occupied by consciousness in procession at mind-door. I have mapped them out. The first is mind-door-adverting consciousness. The last 2 are retaining-consciousness (tadaarammana cittas) and in the middle are all 7 javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness or apperceiving consciousness. So there are 10 consciousness at mind door. Among them only 2 consciousness are 'vipaaka cittas' or 'resultant consciousness'. They arise at mind door. But rebirth consciousness, life continuing consciousness, dying consciousness do not arise at any door of 6. This include mind door. So these 3 kinds of consciousness do not arise at mind door. They are called door-free consciousness (vithi-mutta cittas) With Metta, Htoo Naing 47951 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear RobM & Friends, Yesterday we had an unexpected and very enjoyable get-together with RobM as he passed through Hong Kong en route to Tokyo where he'll be meeting Phil & Naomi. We spent just under two hours sitting in a hotel lounge with Metta, Sarah *Rob arrived for the hottest day of the year. Rob, `The observatory said there were 4,593 lightning strikes between 1am and 3am, or 38 a minute.' Apparently `it recorded more than 800 strikes in one minute at about 2am.' > =========== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Nina, Phil and all :-)), I am just wondering why so good report is put in the thread I started as 'Full Moon Day Gift' but changed to 'A flash of lightening ..sw..'. Totally unrelated. I posted 'wheel-turning dhamma' 'dhamma-cakka- vavattana', which is The Buddha's First Discourse which was preached on this very Full Moon Day over 2500 years ago. Sarah's report is excellent. Rob M works well on the way to Japan. I will be looking forward to more of report. With respect, Htoo Naing 47952 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:52am Subject: Dhamma Thread (451) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There is no person, no human, no deva, no man, no woman but there are just rupa dhamma and nama dhamma. But these aggregates of rupa and nama are illusionally seen as person or individual. 12 individuals have been explained. In these individuals there are vinnaana-kkhandha called cittas. The first citta in a life is called patisandhi citta or rebirth- consciousness or linking-consciousness. Patisandhi = pati + sandhi, pati means 'again' and sandhi means 'link'. So patisandhi means 'linking again'. This linking consciousness arise as the first consciousness and it is birth consciousness or rebirth consciousness. The last citta in a life is called cuti citta or dying consciousness, after which there is no individual in that defined life. Cuti means 'move'. This is movement from the current life and this citta is the last citta. So it is called dying consciousness. If it is called death-consciousness it will be non-sense as consciousness is already dead by the name. In that citta there are 3 anu-khanas or 3 submoments called uppaada or arising, thiti or staying, and bhanga or vanishing. Actually death is just after bhanga without interruption. Uppaada and thiiti khana are not dead. The first is patisandhi and the last is cuti. Between these 2 cittas are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness. Bhavanga = bhava + anga, bhava means 'existence' and anga means 'limb' Bhavanga means 'limb of life' or 'part of life'. As this citta is continuation of the current life it is called life-continuing consciousness or life-continuum. These cittas do arise because of already existing kamma. But if there are condition like arising of current object of panca- arammana or dhamma-arammana (though-object) the flow of bhavanga stop and new series of consciousness arise in serial manner as described in the previous post. All these events whether there are consciousness-in-procession or vithi cittas are there or not are collectively seen as an individual. This is not just consciousness. But its associated mental factors called cetasikas, its co-arising consciousness-generated ruupa or cittaja ruupa along with other ruupas including hadaya ruupa or heart- base. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 47953 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/20/05 5:44:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I could not trace that Jataka. But Sumedha, the future Buddha Gotama, could > never be an arahat when he declared to the Buddha Diipankara his intention > to attain Buddhahood in the future. > Nina. > ======================== > Yes, that was my understanding of the Theravadin perspective. The claim > with regard to the Dipankara Jataka contradicts that, allowing as it does for > an arahant to willfully be reborn multiple times in order to perfect all the > paramitas and eventually attain Buddhahood. It would be good to know what is > actually in that Jataka story in this regard. > _________________ Dear Howard, The Jataka says that Sumedha could have become an arahant on the day he met Dipanka Buddha, but he aspired to be a buddha in the future. He wanted to help many beings so had to take a much longer path. Robert 47954 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/20/05 11:06:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Howard, The Jataka says that Sumedha could have become an arahant on the day he met Dipanka Buddha, but he aspired to be a buddha in the future. He wanted to help many beings so had to take a much longer path. Robert =========================== Ahh! Thank you, Robert! I expected that was the case. Amazing, isn't it, how people are willing to falsify the facts, even when it comes to the Dhamma! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47955 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > The Jataka says that Sumedha could have become an arahant on the day > he met Dipanka Buddha, but he aspired to be a buddha in the future. > He wanted to help many beings so had to take a much longer path. > Robert > =========================== > Ahh! Thank you, Robert! I expected that was the case. Amazing, isn't it, > how people are willing to falsify the facts, even when it comes to the Dhamma! ____________ Dear Howard, yes we have to be very careful with all details, otherwise future generations will get confused. Robert 47956 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:41am Subject: Re: A Question About Ven. Sumedha abhidhammika Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Mike, and all How are you? I agree with Nina and Robert. Once one became an Arahant, one cannot be reborn any more. When Bodhisatta Sumedha met Diipankaraa Buddha, he was not even a bhikkhu, let alone an Arahant. Here are the quotes from the commentary on Buddhavamsa where Bodhisatta Sumedho's story as well as Diipankaraa Buddha's story can be found. 1. "Atha tasmim kaale sumedhataapaso attano assamapadato uggantvaa ..." "At that time, Sumedho the hermit having flown from the base of his sanctuary... " Page 84, Sumedhapatthanaakathaa, Buddhavamsa Atthakathaa. The above quote shows that Bodhisatta Sumedhaa was a taapaso with all the Jhaana attainments that enabled him to fly in the air. 2. "Tato sumedhapa.n.dito kalalapi.t.the nipanno evam cintesi– "sacaaham iccheyyam sabbakilese jhaapetvaa sanghanavako hutvaa rammanagaram paviseyyam,..." Page 90, Sumedhapatthanaakathaa, Buddhavamsa Atthakathaa. "After that, Sumedho the sage, lying on the mud spot, pondered thus: "If I wished, I could have entered Rammana city by letting all defilements burnt out and by becoming a new member of Sangha,..." The above quote shows (1)that Bodhisatta Sumedho had not burnt up his defilements, hence not becoming an Arahant, and (2) that he did not even become a bhikkhu. I hope that the above quotes help. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - I saw it claimed by two sources, one Theravadin, one Mahayanist, that it is said in the Dipankara Jataka that Venerable Sumedha, the future Buddha, was an arahant when he was a follower of Buddha Dipankara. Is anyone here sufficiently familiar with that Jataka tale to say whether or not that claim is true? With metta, Howard 47957 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question About Ven. Sumedha upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - Thanks a lot for the following! With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/20/05 11:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Mike, and all How are you? I agree with Nina and Robert. Once one became an Arahant, one cannot be reborn any more. When Bodhisatta Sumedha met Diipankaraa Buddha, he was not even a bhikkhu, let alone an Arahant. Here are the quotes from the commentary on Buddhavamsa where Bodhisatta Sumedho's story as well as Diipankaraa Buddha's story can be found. 1. "Atha tasmim kaale sumedhataapaso attano assamapadato uggantvaa ..." "At that time, Sumedho the hermit having flown from the base of his sanctuary... " Page 84, Sumedhapatthanaakathaa, Buddhavamsa Atthakathaa. The above quote shows that Bodhisatta Sumedhaa was a taapaso with all the Jhaana attainments that enabled him to fly in the air. 2. "Tato sumedhapa.n.dito kalalapi.t.the nipanno evam cintesi– "sacaaham iccheyyam sabbakilese jhaapetvaa sanghanavako hutvaa rammanagaram paviseyyam,..." Page 90, Sumedhapatthanaakathaa, Buddhavamsa Atthakathaa. "After that, Sumedho the sage, lying on the mud spot, pondered thus: "If I wished, I could have entered Rammana city by letting all defilements burnt out and by becoming a new member of Sangha,..." The above quote shows (1)that Bodhisatta Sumedho had not burnt up his defilements, hence not becoming an Arahant, and (2) that he did not even become a bhikkhu. I hope that the above quotes help. With regards, Suan /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question: Spurious Sourcing? nilovg Hi Howard, it does not sound Visuddhimagga. She should have given the quote. It is wrong to be careless with texts. Nina. op 20-07-2005 15:39 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > A name is imposed on what is thought to be a thing or a state and this > divides it from other things and other states. But when you pursue what lies > behind > the name, you find a greater and greater subtlety that has no divisions. Atoms > of dust are not really atoms of dust but are merely called that. In the same > way, a world is not a world but is merely called that. > > -Visuddhi Magga > From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000. Reprinted by arrangement > with Shambhala Publications, Boston, www.shambhala.com. > Hi all - > > While I like the quote a lot, and it fits right in with my recent > speaking of no separate entities, I *strongly* doubt that the VSMG is the > source of > this! It isn't, is it? 47959 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 7/20/05 11:06:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > The Jataka says that Sumedha could have become an arahant on the day > he met Dipanka Buddha, but he aspired to be a buddha in the future. > He wanted to help many beings so had to take a much longer path. > Robert > =========================== > Ahh! Thank you, Robert! I expected that was the case. Amazing, isn't it, > how people are willing to falsify the facts, even when it comes to the Dhamma! > > With metta, > Howard Not really that amazing. Just consider the Abhidhamma and many of the writings of Buddhaghosa. Metta, James 47960 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:09pm Subject: Re: ideal renderings.../ Heedful buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Hi friend Tep: > > Some IMHO ideal renderings: > > Sati = Awareness > Appamaada = Alertness > Pamaada = Neglect > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. > <...> Ven. Samahita {Sarah and Htoo} - Thank you for giving me the Pali translations of sati, appamaada and pamaada. The meaning "neglect" of the Pali 'pamaada' implies that appmaada means "not neglecting" or "not negligence" of duties, and this implication is very nice because it reminds me of the Buddha's last words : "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." [SN VI.15 Parinibbana Sutta] To me the word "be heedful" is very powerful because it include everything the Buddha taught. It is much more than "be mindful" or "be aware". Don't you think so? Warm regards, Tep ======== 47961 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... egberdina Dear Sarah and (Tep), Thanks for the report on your meeting with RobM. I'll get straight down to brass tacks. > > There was talk about attending to particular objects which smacked of an > idea of control again, rather than an understanding of conditioned > dhammas. If it is possible, please give me a straight answer on the following, soonish. Was there, ever, a sense of self in the long long long term process of you acquiring your encyclopedic memory of the Canon and commentaries? Kind Regards Herman 47962 From: "NickiKaru" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Nicki - New member NickiKaru Dear Dhamma friends, Some times ago, I came to know this group via Pali group. I read some messages and thought to read more. But it never happened. So I'm joining as a member which will compell me to read your valuble discussions. with metta, Nicki 47963 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,171 egberdina Hi Sarah, > The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I presume, whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG last year as Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him > to post again. Many things became clearer on reading this. I was very puzzled at the time Matt was posting about the group dynamics that seemed to come out of nowhere. I am referring to the loud cheering that came from the sidelines every time Ivan posted. Now I am not puzzled. You only need to go to a football match to understand that even though we live in cities with millions of inhabitants, the tribal mind is still very strong. I too would dearly love it if Ivan resumed posting. Not that I think it takes more than one person to present the Sujinite view. Football matches may be won through a preponderance of players on the field, but no view becomes more credible just from having more people adhering to it or presenting it :-) Kind Regards Herman 47964 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... sarahprocter... Dear Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > > There was talk about attending to particular objects which smacked of > an > > idea of control again, rather than an understanding of conditioned > > dhammas. > > which reads as though you believe that the Atthasalini should be used > as the Rosetta Stone> ... S: I seldom quote from the Abhidhamma or commentaries if I'm addressing you or James or others who prefer to just read the suttas. However, if I'm addressing friends or a bhikkhu who also quote from these sources and whom I believe will appreciate further quotes, it would seem reasonable to do so, don't you think? ... > > If it is possible, please give me a straight answer on the following, > soonish. > > Was there, ever, a sense of self in the long long long term process of > you acquiring your encyclopedic memory of the Canon and commentaries? ... S: 1. I assure you (& Tep) that I don't have any sort of 'encyclopedic memory' of anything. I have some references in texts that I've had for a long time that I can find more easily, that's all. 2. There has been and is plenty of sense of self. Does this mean it should be cultivated rather than seen for what it is? No. Will any wisdom arise as a result of any wrong views? No. Back to the quotes -- the sooner we see that it is citta and its accompanying cetasikas which experience objects rather than any self, the better. There can be awareness now of seeing or hearing or thinking without any attending to objects with a sense of self, wouldn't you say? I hope this is 'straight' enough for you, Herman and look forward to further 'live' discussion on Wednesday week. Metta, Sarah ============ 47965 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171 sarahprocter... Hi Herman & Antony, --- Egbert wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I > presume, whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG > last year as Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him > > to post again. > > > Many things became clearer on reading this. I was very puzzled at the > time Matt was posting about the group dynamics that seemed to come out > of nowhere. I am referring to the loud cheering that came from the > sidelines every time Ivan posted. .... S: It was a puzzle. Some of us liked his posts a lot. He was new to the list and we encouraged him without any idea about who he was or where he came from. None of us had the slightest idea that it was an old friend, Ivan, who was posting. Even those who see him at weekly sessions in Bangkok like Sukin had no idea. We only found out recently on a visit when he 'spilt the beans' that he was the 'mystery man'. Matt is his middle name, he told us, so it is a 'real' name....:/. If I recall, Azita questioned him on this point..... Recently, I believe you expressed your admiration for a couple of Howard's posts. I was genuinely glad for his sake when you showed your appreciation. I believe this is an example of 'ringing the bell' which Antony gave a nice literal example of. Btw, Antony, you'll be glad to hear that Jon is 'ringing the bell' at work tomorrow. There's a tradition in his very large legal department that anyone 'rings the bell' in the mess if they get a promotion or on retirement. Jon'll be ringing the bell for his retirement in the evening which means the whole department and outsiders too are invited for free drinks. It's interesting that they use just this expression. Antony, I also appreciated your post on the Buddha's compassion. I look forward to any more of your sharings. You may like to look for further quotes in 'Useful posts' under 'Buddha' and 'compassion'. Also, for appreciation others' good fortune, see under 'anumodana'. Again, we can discuss any of these topics or others you've mentioned when we see you.....pls keep a note of anything else you'd like to raise. Metta, Sarah ======= 47966 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nicki - New member sarahprocter... Dear Nicki, --- NickiKaru wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > Some times ago, I came to know this group via Pali group. I read some > messages and thought to read more. But it never happened. So I'm > joining as a member which will compell me to read your valuble > discussions. ... S: Thanks for your intro and explanation. I'm glad you've joined....perhaps the best way to get started would be to raise your own questions or reflections and follow those threads while you find your feet and start to join in and read other discussions. We'd be glad to hear anything more about your background interest and where you live and so on. You may also like to look at saved archive posts under particular topics in the file 'Useful Posts' in the files section. Nicki, I'm about to go away for just over a month, so please excuse me if I'm not able to join any of your threads until my return. Jon and I will be reading all the posts as usual and I'll try to send the odd e-postcard. Metta, Sarah ======== 47967 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:22pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 253- Attachment/lobha (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Lobha may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. When it is accompanied by pleasant feeling there is enthusiasm ( píti) as well. When there is pleasant feeling we are delighted with it and then pleasant feeling becomes another object of attachment. When there is attachment there is also ignorance, shamelessness, recklessness and restlessness (uddhacca). Ignorance does not see the true nature of the object of clinging, it does not see that it is only a conditioned reality which does not stay. Shamelessness is not ashamed of akusala and recklessness does not see its danger. Restlessness is instability due to akusala, it prevents the citta from applying itself to kusala. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47968 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/20/05 11:13:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Jon'll be ringing the bell for his retirement in the evening which means the whole department and outsiders too are invited for free drinks. ============================ Hearty congratulations and best wishes to Jon! When does he become officially liberated? (And I'm not referring to vimutti! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47969 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:42pm Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hearty congratulations and best wishes to Jon! When does he become > officially liberated? (And I'm not referring to vimutti! ;-)) ... S: ;-)) The latter would be more to the point. Seriously, he's been flat out helping to get laws enacted and now writing hand-over reports and also being taken out to numerous lunches by colleagues....Officially tomorrow, after over 20 yrs with the Hong Kong government. However, he already tells me he'll need to be back in the office on the return from our trip to sort out his boxes of papers and so on, so it may just mean the monthly payments stop:). He's hoping to continue doing some work in Hong Kong to help pay for all these trips....but we'll see how it all pans out. He'll be busy as usual, I know. So any liberation? I'm not sure....see what he says. As always, I appreciate your sponaneous mudita when you hear anyone's good news, Howard. Anumodana in this or Sadhu x3. Metta, Sarah ========== 47970 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:01pm Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) christine_fo... Hello Sarah and Jon, Jon - may I add my congratulations to those of Howard? How wonderful that you will soon have the time to be involved in personal priorities, rather than the daily grind of public service administration. Though, knowing Jon, he'll be even busier after retirement than before ... Sarah - you may yet find yourself remembering 'the good ol' days' when *all* he had to do was go to the Office and prepare Bills for the HK Government. :-) May I confess to slight envy? :-) metta Chris >>> sarahprocterabbott@... 07/21/05 1:42 pm >>> Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hearty congratulations and best wishes to Jon! When does he become > officially liberated? (And I'm not referring to vimutti! ;-)) ... S: ;-)) The latter would be more to the point. Seriously, he's been flat out helping to get laws enacted and now writing hand-over reports and also being taken out to numerous lunches by colleagues....Officially tomorrow, after over 20 yrs with the Hong Kong government. However, he already tells me he'll need to be back in the office on the return from our trip to sort out his boxes of papers and so on, so it may just mean the monthly payments stop:). He's hoping to continue doing some work in Hong Kong to help pay for all these trips....but we'll see how it all pans out. He'll be busy as usual, I know. So any liberation? I'm not sure....see what he says. As always, I appreciate your sponaneous mudita when you hear anyone's good news, Howard. Anumodana in this or Sadhu x3. Metta, Sarah ========== 47971 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... sarahprocter... Dear Htoo,(*KenO, Herman) --- htootintnaing wrote: > I am just wondering why so good report is put in the thread I started > as 'Full Moon Day Gift' but changed to 'A flash of lightening ..sw..'. > > Totally unrelated. .... S: Yes, totally unrelated -- I hadn't even read your good post at the time. I can't understand your comment -- my 'report' was not in the same thread as yours. I just double-checked this on the homepage and in my google account which neatly stacks posts in the same thread. > Sarah's report is excellent. Rob M works well on the way to Japan. I > will be looking forward to more of report. ... S: Thx --it was rather rushed as I was running a bit late for a walk with Jon. Yes, I'll be looking forward to further reports from Japan too. Hope you work out the 'mystery threads':). Btw, I'm especially appreciating your series on the 'individuals'. Metta, Sarah p.s A very nice bonus to have you back so soon:). *KenO -- a great ice-cream post #47840 -- v.sharp. Also Herman's reminder that 'dhammas are not in the book'. =============== 47972 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 452 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'An individual' is nothing but a word for the complete picture of illusion on aggregates of rupa (non-conscious matters) and naama (conscious matters ). Patisandhi (rebirth or linking), bhavanga (life-continuum), and cuti (leaving) citta or consciousness in these individuals are like sublte continuous flow of life faculties and these consciousness are almost undetectable. There are other type of consciousness that arise in these individuals. They arise in procession. This means that 'such and such consciousness arises in this order in these moments in an exact manner. Here are examples of continuous arising of consciousness without any interruption. a) BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB (flow of life-continuum ) b) BBB--infinity of B--BBBPCSTVJJJJJJJDDBBB--infinity of B--BBB c) BBB--infinity of B--BBBMJJJJJJJDDBBB--infinity of B--BBB b) and c) are the procession of citta in perception of panca-arammana or 5-sense-object and the procession of citta in perception of dhamma-arammana or mind-object. That is b) is for apperception of one of 5 senses (here C is an example for cakkhu vinnaana citta or eye- consciousness) and c) is for apperception of dhamma-arammana or mind-object. When a) is compared with b) or c) there is a distinction that a) is much much much subtle flow of life-faculties bhavanga cittas while b) and c) are like heated materials. When the components of the procession are examined there will be found like this. B = bhavanga citta or life-continuum P = panca-dvara-avajjana-citta or 5-door-adverting consciousness C = cakkhu-vinnaana-citta or eye-consciousness (replace with others) S = sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness T = santirana citta or investigating consciousness V = votthapana citta or determining consciousness J = javana citta or impulsive consciousness of apperception D = tadaarammana citta or retaining consciousness M = mano-dvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciounsess Among these consciousness especially in series b) the folw is like this. PCSTVJJJJJJJDD P or panca-dvara-avajjana or 5-door-adverting consciousness is a kiriya citta or functional consciousness. It does not generate any kamma or any future result and this citta is very pure citta. Likewise V or vothapana citta, which is mano-dvara-avajjana citta working as determining consciousness is also a kiriya citta and it is functional consciousness like panca-dvara-avajjana citta. These 2 cittas are like 2 doors. There are BBBB and when an object arises it hit one of Bs. When the object first arises it does not have a full power to serve as an object because it is still in its initiation. So the object cannot hit B and one B is missed. That missed consciousness passes away and it is called atita-bhavanga citta or past life-continuum. Then the object hits the 2nd B and that B is invigorated or shaken and that B is called bhavanga calana citta or vibrating-life- continuum. As the flow of B is a long term phenomena the flow cannot stop immediately as soon as the object arises. But when hit, the flow has to stop and the last B or 3rd B arises as bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting life-continuum. Here the object cannot enter immediately. The 1st B is missed. The 2nd B is hit and vibrated. The 3rd B arises as overshooting and it arrests the flow. Then the object enters through the 1st door called panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness. The object is then processed in the 3 successive stations called 'consciousness station' 'receiving station' 'investigating station'. As soon as the object enters the first door it is passed to another station from the adverting station (panca-dvara-avajjana). That station is consciousness station and knower is sense-consciousness or panca-vinnaana citta. If the object is visual object consciousness arise will be eye-consciousness and so on. The object is then passed to another station called sampaticchana thaana or receiving station and the receiver of the object is sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness. This consciousness transferred the object to the 3rd station called santirana thaana or investigating station. After investigated the object is allowed to enter the 2nd door. So there are 2 doors. Both of doors are stations and the 1st door is adverting station and 2nd door is determining station. Between these 2 doors are 3 successive stations. After processed, the object enter this 2nd door and then the object is apperceived for a long time. This is quite sensible and this period may well be detectable as these moments last for 7 cittakkhanas or 7 moments unlike other consciousness in this procession. When 2 doors are both kiriya citta or functional consciousness all three cittas in 3 stations are vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness. So even though these 5 consciousness are different from bhavanga cittas they still seem to be not very heating. As soon as J or javana cittas arise these consciousness are apparent that they are relatively more recognizable than the former 5 consciousness. Apart from kiriya-javana cittas, all other javana cittas creates kamma with the exception of phala citta or fruition consciousness which are resultant cittas of lokuttara kusala cittas or magga cittas or path-consciousness. These javana cittas will be explained in the coming post in connection with individuals described in earlier posts. After J or javana cittas ( altogether 7 in most situations ) there arise 2 D or 2 tadaarammana citta or retention consciousness if there is enough time for them to arise. Otherwise bhavanga cittas arise one after another and normal flow of bhavanga citta resumes. All tadaarammana cittas are vipaaka cittas and they do not produce any further kamma or any further results as they themselves are resultant consciousness. So javana cittas are the most important naama dhamma to contemplate. There are 3 dhamma. They are akusala dhamma, kusala dhamma, and abyakata dhamma. All vipaaka cittas and all kiriya cittas are abyakata dhamma. When javana cittas are examined there are also 3 kinds of dhamma and they are akusala , kusala and abyakata dhamma. Among them abyakata javana cittas are those of arahatta phalatthaana puggalas or arahats. They do not produce any further kamma. So when they arise as the last moment javana cittas there is no further kamma that will give rise to future rebirth and when those abyakata javana citta end the last vipaka citta arises and this citta is cuti citta of arahats. It is the door of nibbana. Individuals and javana cittas will be talked in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 47973 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:59am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 07 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movements' 4. 99 contemplation on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplation on 'body element' The first 4 kinds of contemplation have been explained. Altogether there have been 15 + 15 + 63 + 99 = 192 contemplations. In this post a further 15 contemplations will be discussed. There are 4 contemplations on 'body element'. They are 1. contemplation on earthy element of body (earth element/ pathavi) 2. contemplation on flowy element of body (water element/ apo) 3. contemplation on heaty element of body (temperature/ tejo) 4. contemplation on moving element of body (pressure/ vayo). The practitioner perceives these elements again and again and see them as just elements and nothing more than elements. At another time he or she may perceive that these elements are arising in other individuals like in his or her self's body. So there is another set of 4 contemplations. And sometime both internal and external body are contemplated that these 4 elements are arising in so called his or her body and others' body. Therefore there are 12 contemplations on body. There are 3 more extra contemplations on body elements. They are 1. contemplation on origination of body element 2. contemplation on dissolution of body element 3. contemplation on both origination and dissolution of body element So there are altogether a total of 15 contemplation on body elements. Along with 192 contemplations on body there are in total so far 207 contemplations on body out of 261 contemplations. There left 54 contemplations on body. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47974 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: ideal renderings.../ Heedful htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita > wrote: > > Hi friend Tep: > > > > Some IMHO ideal renderings: > > > > Sati = Awareness > > Appamaada = Alertness > > Pamaada = Neglect > > > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > > Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. > > <...> > > Ven. Samahita {Sarah and Htoo} - > > Thank you for giving me the Pali translations of sati, appamaada and > pamaada. > > The meaning "neglect" of the Pali 'pamaada' implies that appmaada > means "not neglecting" or "not negligence" of duties, and this > implication is very nice because it reminds me of the Buddha's last > words : "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring > about completion by being heedful." [SN VI.15 Parinibbana Sutta] > > To me the word "be heedful" is very powerful because it include > everything the Buddha taught. It is much more than "be mindful" or "be > aware". Don't you think so? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep (BS, Sarah and all), For me I have been perceiving hearing 'The Buddha's words in their original sound (Pali)' while I feel understanding what those Pali words mean. I have posted several times 'The Buddha last word'. If Sarah feel it is right to repost, I would do so even though she might have a link to old message. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47975 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo,(*KenO, Herman) --- htootintnaing wrote: > I am just wondering why so good report is put in the thread I started as 'Full Moon Day Gift' but changed to 'A flash of lightening ..sw..'. Totally unrelated. .... S: Yes, totally unrelated -- I hadn't even read your good post at the time. I can't understand your comment -- my 'report' was not in the same thread as yours. I just double-checked this on the homepage and in my google account which neatly stacks posts in the same thread. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Just click on the post 'Full Moon Day Gift'. This is my old post. You might suggest me again just to link. But as it was an anniversary day of 'The Buddha's First Discourse' I posted it as a gift as anew even though it is an old post. But when I saw at the foot of the message there are a few posts and all are not related to 'wheel-turning dhamma'. With respect, Htoo Naing 47976 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... egberdina Hi Sarah, > > > > There was talk about attending to particular objects which smacked of > > an > > > idea of control again, rather than an understanding of conditioned > > > dhammas. > > > > > which reads as though you believe that the Atthasalini should be used > > as the Rosetta Stone> > ... > S: I seldom quote from the Abhidhamma or commentaries if I'm addressing you or James or others who prefer to just read the suttas. == That's appreciated. == >However, if I'm addressing friends or a bhikkhu who also quote from >these sources and whom I believe will appreciate further quotes, it >would seem reasonable to do so, don't you think? == Yes, that would be reasonable. == > ... > > > > If it is possible, please give me a straight answer on the following, > > soonish. > > > > Was there, ever, a sense of self in the long long long term process of > > you acquiring your encyclopedic memory of the Canon and commentaries? > ... > S: > 1. I assure you (& Tep) that I don't have any sort of 'encyclopedic > memory' of anything. I have some references in texts that I've had for a long time that I can find more easily, that's all. === I have no problem with the fact that you remember heaps about your favourite topic, or that you know where to find what you want to say. === > > 2. There has been and is plenty of sense of self. === Thank you for your straight answer. === >Does this mean it should be cultivated rather than seen for what it >is? No. Will any wisdom arise as a result of any wrong views? No. === Would you recommend ceasing studying of the texts, given the dangers of being deluded as to why the study is taking place? === > Back to the quotes -- the sooner we see that it is citta and its >accompanying cetasikas which experience objects rather than any self, >the better. There can be awareness now of seeing or hearing or >thinking without any attending to objects with a sense of self, >wouldn't you say? == Yes, I would. == > > I hope this is 'straight' enough for you, Herman and look forward to > further 'live' discussion on Wednesday week. > Thank you , and see you soonish. Kind Regards Herman > Metta, > > Sarah > ============ 47977 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Just click on the post 'Full Moon Day Gift'. This is my old post. You > might suggest me again just to link. But as it was an anniversary day > of 'The Buddha's First Discourse' I posted it as a gift as anew even > though it is an old post. ... S: That's fine. I was glad to read it again and be reminded of this important day. (btw, I'm a bit too busy to look for links for your other poss you mentioned ....someone else may help or else repost, as long as it's not reposting a whole series:). ... But when I saw at the foot of the message > there are a few posts and all are not related to 'wheel-turning > dhamma'. ... S: Now, I see what you mean and I have no explanation. Sometimes when I post, I just go to the most recent in my in box, delete the entire message and the subject, just to keep the address. I had no idea this could happen, so I'm glad to have it pointed out. Strange! In my google account where threads are sorted, there's no overlapping, so I think it's a glitch in yahoo. thanks for pointing it out... Metta, Sarah ======== 47978 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:21am Subject: Today is Asalha Fullmoon Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist on a Full-moon Day ? Today 2533 years ago, The Buddha spoke his first speech and thereby set rolling the wheel of Dhamma, which cannot be stopped by anyone, ascetic or priest or god or mara or brahma or by anyone at all in this world! Thereby was the Four Noble Truths made to be known & stand! Tomorrow starts the rains-retreat of 3 months study & deep meditation! Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children, since they protects you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation... Today though is full-moon pooya day, uposatha day, observance day, where lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I.." signed with name, date, town & country to me. I will then out up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma Sangha. May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: bhikkhu_ekamuni@... For Details on Buddhist Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47979 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:32am Subject: Prefered renderings bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear sarah abbott & friends: One's preferences in renderings change over time, yet here is IMHO, what I currently find ideal: Citta = One Thought Vinnana = Consciousness Nama = Mentality or Mind Sankhara = Construction PS: It is a true pleasure to note the quite high standard here at DSG. A rarity... : - ] 47980 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:21am Subject: Appreciation + the wrecking round ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Nina: >Thank you Bhante: the ever repeating cycle. Thanx2U2! They call it: 'The Round- = Vatta The futility of this, reminds of these vertical carousels you can get to pet mice, which they run & run & run into, without getting anywhere! : - ] 47981 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Sarah and all, The following paragraph prompted me to write this post. > the sooner we see that it is citta and its accompanying cetasikas which experience objects rather than any self, the better. There can be awareness now of seeing or hearing or thinking without any attending to objects with a sense of self, wouldn't you say? > I think the word "self" has had an unnecessarily troubled history at dsg. For me, there are uses of "self" that are confused, but there are some uses of "self" which are quite justified. I think we all agree that "self" as agent/doer acting independently of conditions is a nono. Likewise with "self" as some unchanging essence. But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word "self", I'll use auto. I am not again going to go into whether citta experiences, or whether the citta is the experience. But if we look at the stream of experience from the viewpoint of where it is going, it seems clear that the stream of experience goes around in circles, driven by an auto-regulating craving/satisfaction mechanism. And to be able to auto-regulate, there must be auto-referencing. The stream of experience is auto-conscious. Breathing, thirst, hunger, sex are common examples of such auto-regulating cycles. The stream of experience is auto-matic (it acts on itself). It is clear to me that there is no self that has set or is able to change the goal of this stream of experience, which is simply to be auto-perpetuating. It is also clear to me that there is no essential, unchanging self that the stream of experience happens to. But what is not clear to me is that this stream of experience is not *my* experience. I am what I see, I see what I am. I am what I hear, I hear what I am. I am what I feel, I feel what I am. I am what I taste, I taste what I am. I am what I smell, I smell what I am. I am what I think, I think what I am. Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? Kind Regards Herman 47982 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:45am Subject: Re: ideal renderings.../ Heedful buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote, > For me I have been perceiving hearing 'The Buddha's words in their > original sound (Pali)' while I feel understanding what those Pali > words mean. I have posted several times 'The Buddha last word'. If > Sarah feel it is right to repost, I would do so even though she might > have a link to old message. > Tep: Please start with summary of your old posts that you can do anytime without asking her for permission. Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita > > wrote: > > > Hi friend Tep: > > > > > > Some IMHO ideal renderings: > > > > > > Sati = Awareness > > > Appamaada = Alertness > > > Pamaada = Neglect > > > > > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > > > Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. > > > <...> > > > > Ven. Samahita {Sarah and Htoo} - > > > > Thank you for giving me the Pali translations of sati, appamaada > and > > pamaada. > > > > The meaning "neglect" of the Pali 'pamaada' implies that appmaada means "not neglecting" or "not negligence" of duties, and this implication is very nice because it reminds me of the Buddha's last > > words : "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to > decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." [SN VI.15 Parinibbana Sutta] > > > > To me the word "be heedful" is very powerful because it include > > everything the Buddha taught. It is much more than "be mindful" > or "be aware". Don't you think so? > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > Tep 47983 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" buddhistmedi... Hi Herman {Sarah and others} - I am sorry to be the first to respond to your invitation to join. H: > > I am what I see, I see what I am. > I am what I hear, I hear what I am. > I am what I feel, I feel what I am. > I am what I taste, I taste what I am. > I am what I smell, I smell what I am. > I am what I think, I think what I am. > > Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? > Tep: It sounds like 'This is I, this is my self'. Don't you think so? H: > But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe > the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a > functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just > Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word > "self", I'll use auto. > Tep: That is a clever description, Herman. You have now become an authority on self. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > The following paragraph prompted me to write this post. > > > the sooner we see that it is citta and its accompanying cetasikas > which experience objects rather than any self, the better. There can > be awareness now of seeing or hearing or thinking without any > attending to objects with a sense of self, wouldn't you say? > > > > I think the word "self" has had an unnecessarily troubled history at > dsg. For me, there are uses of "self" that are confused, but there are > some uses of "self" which are quite justified. > 47984 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Co to Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 202 - 205. nilovg Dear friends, Here are parts of the commentary on the section on breathing, sections 204, 205. 204. He 'combines the faculties': how does he combine the faculties? He combines the faith faculty(saddha indriya) through its meaning of resolution(adhimokkha), N: Co: resolution, because the citta is established on the object.[N: as said and repeated here several times: conditioned dhammas in the case of vipassana, nibbaana in the case of lokuttara cittas]. The Co states that samatha and vipassanaa form a pair at the moment of vipassanamagga and phala. N: magga and phala are reckoned as stages of vipassana, namely, lokuttara stages. Text: he combines the energy faculty(viriya indriya) through its meaning of exertion(vayamati), he combines the mindfulness faculty(sati indriya) through its meaning of establishment (foundation, upatthana), he combines the concentration faculty (samadhi indriya) through its meaning of non-distraction(avikkhepa), he combines the understanding faculty(panna indriya) through its meaning of seeing(dassana). This person combines these faculties on this object. Hence, he 'combines the faculties' is said. 205. He 'understands their domain': N: gocaara is domain or object. The Co states that conditioned dhammas (sankhaara) are the object of vipassanaa and nibbaana is the object of magga-citta and phala-citta. Text: his supporting object is his domain (gocara); his domain is his supporting object(aarammana). He understands, thus he is a person; the act-of-understanding is understanding. [Read 'aarammanam Pajaanaati puggalo. Pajaananaa pannaa'.] N: This person (ayam puggalo): the yogavacara, the person who is endowed with anapanasati all the time. As to the expression: in this object: the object that is conditioned [dhammas] namely the mental body (naamakaayo) and the physical body(ruupa kaayo) which are included in the word kaaye, in the body, [N: seeing body in the body], and the object that is nibbaana, experienced by the subsequent Path-consciousness. The word tassa means: of this person. [N: It is the object of this person]. Text: the act-of-understanding is understanding. Co: A person knows through paññaa. Text: 'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object(aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. N: The benefit of cleansing cognizance. The Co adds: the object is the condition for citta to be pure. Text: 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. N: attha also means: benefit, which seems to make more sense here. Benefit as blameless, as without defilement, as cleansing, ultimate benefit. without defilement: the Co: the nature of magga is without defilement. Ultimate benefit: Co: the nature of nibbaana is the highest dhamma, more excellent than all other dhammas. Text: 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance. Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said. ***** N: The Co speaks about the blameless dhamma that is beneficial. The dhamma that is calm is beneficial. The dhamma that is pure is the dhamma that is calm. The calm here refers to the purity of magga vipassanaa that is beneficial. It refers to the purity of magga and phala [N; lokuttaracittas], and to nibbaana. Co: He penetrates the dhammas that have the benefit of calm. The dhammas: the faculties, the powers and the factors of enlightenment that are present in vipassanaa magga and phala [N:lokuttara cittas]. ***** Remark: when the faculties have been cultivated they become powers, balas, they are unshakable by their opposites. This whole section deals with vipassanaa and lokuttara cittas. ****** Nina. 47985 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:54am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 173, avarice. Intro: Avarice, macchariya, does not arise with each akusala citta rooted in aversion, dosa, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-muulacitta. It is one of the inconstants (aniyata) that can accompany dosa-muulacitta. Thus, it is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. It is affected by the dosa it accompanies. When there is stinginess, one has dislike of the idea of sharing the good things one has. Avariciousness pertains to one¹s own prosperity whereas envy pertains to others¹ prosperity. Thus, they do not arise together. ------------- Text Vis.:(xlvii) Avariciousness is 'avarice'. ------ N: The Tiika refers to a word association of macchariya, as: the negation ma and acchariya, meaning: what is wonderful. It states:< As the ancients explained the meaning of avarice: may others not possess this wonderfull thing, let it be mine alone.> -------- Text Vis.: Its characteristic is the hiding of one's own success that has been or can be obtained. Its function is not to bear sharing these with others. It is manifested as shrinking , or it is manifested as meanness. N: The Tiika explains that it shrinks back, there is unwillingness to share one¹s prosperity with others. The Expositor (p. 483) explains: One hides as it were one¹s property, so that others do not see it and one does not come into the situatiuon of having to share it. ------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is one's own success. -------- N: One¹s own success or prosperity, these are all the good things one has, such as the pleasant worldly conditions of gain, praise and honour. The Tiika states: beginning with dwelling. There are five kinds of objects on account of which stinginess can arise. We read in the Dhammasangani (1122) in its definition of the fetter of meanness: The five meannesses, (to wit) meanness as regards dwelling, families, gifts, reputation, dhamma- all this sort of meanness, grudging, mean spirit, avarice and ignobleness, niggardliness and want of generosity of heart- this is called the fetter of meanness. As regards stinginess about dwelling, this can be a monastery, a single room or any place where a bhikkhu stays. As to families, gifts, this pertains to the bhikkhu who is dependent on a family of servitors and does not like another bhikkhu to receive gifts from them. He does not like the idea of sharing, because he thinks that he will receive less. The Expositor explains that there is no stinginess if someone has good reasons not to share these things, namely, if others will use them in the wrong way. Also laypeople may be stingy with regard to gain, praise and honour. We may not want to share honour and praise with others, although they deserve to be praised as well. If we understand that praising someone's virtues is an act of generosity, we will more often remember to do this when the opportunity arises. Generosity is the opposite of stinginess. When we praise someone else there is no room for stinginess. ---------- Text Vis.: It should be regarded as a mental disfigurement. ----------- The Pali term viruupa means deformed or ugly. We read about dosa that this is to be considered as stale urine mixed with poison, and it is stated that poison when it takes effect and spreads, makes the body writhe. Also stinginess can have effect on one¹s bodily appearance and facial expression, it causes lack of beauty. Avarice accompanies dosa-muulacitta and thus it is conditioned by two roots: dosa and ignorance, moha. When there is avarice, there is also moha that darkens the true nature of dhammas. Ignorance does not know about kamma and vipaaka. It is foolish to think that if one shares what one has one will receive less. On the contrary, generosity in one¹s deeds is kusala kamma that will produce pleasant results in the future. Stinginess will produce an unpleasant result: one¹s possessions may dwindle or it can motivate evil deeds that cause an unhappy rebirth. In the ultimate sense there are no things we can possess, there are only naama and ruupa which are impermanent. Dhammas which arise and fall away do not belong to us and we cannot keep them. Why are we stingy about what does not belong to us? Stinginess can motivate akusala kamma through action and speech. Because of stinginess one may lie or slander. The ŒBook of Analysis¹ (Ch 17, 390) explains: Stinginess is a fetter, sa.myojana, which fetters us to the cycle of birth and death. The sotaapanna has eradicated avarice, because through insight he realizes that his prosperity or possessions are only conditioned dhammas that do not last and do not belong to anyone. He has perfect generosity, but this does not mean that he should give away all possessions. He has perfect generosity as to Dhamma, he wishes to share the Dhamma he has realized in order to help others to also realize the four noble Truths. However, as the Expositor explains, this does not mean that he should teach Dhamma to those who will abuse Dhamma. ****** Nina. 47986 From: connie Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:55am Subject: gang talk nichiconn dear nondiscriminating friends, ouch. sorry, reader. >> > there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even > if he >> > has learnt much.>> >> ------- >> N: We also studied this in the early days of our Visuddhimagga study > (two >> years ago), one of the most difficult subjects. Thank you. Lots UP under Sarah's Patisambhidha collection: AN 7s, IV, 37; acceptance in conformity; bias(=chanda); 7 anusaya; patibhaana; gotarabhu; sutta maya ~naa.na; naamakara; nirutti, expressing attha and dhamma. I add some Dispeller ch 15 below. notes to self: signs & details (nimitta & anubya~njana); anu - minor; secondary. (nu/na/)NI-MITTA [sign; omen; portent; cause] - guest, friend or robber? (guard duty: halt, who goes there? identify yourself.) bya~njana - (nt) *syllable or consonant*; sign or mark; curry >> I remember the remark about the sound: impinging on the earsense. The >> natural language is Magadha or Pali. But indeed this Discrimination of >> Language is not for ordinary people. The Buddha knew exactly how to > phrase >> an explanation of the dhamma. Also great disciples, but not to the same >> extent as the Buddha. >> c: yes, only the heard in what is heard... taking a paramattha dhamma r/t concept. Voicehearers would "Listen to Dhamma". and digest it. hearing hears the voice or self-name or characteristic that it has bent over to know of the paramatthadhamma; it's essence, the sabhava, the 'own' characteristic? Or taste the flavour of this. The feral (alone?, untamed) would be fetched up by it's own common sense and skill in the language of elements; this smell, this fear; this nourish. no need to take the texts literally or believe anything, just question my understanding and does it inspire confidence? peace, connie << Dispeller 1949. But here, as to saying that beings learn a tongue, this is only when it is told them; for a mother and father, when their children are small, lay them on a bed or on a chair and, speaking such and such words, do such and such work. The children define such and such speech of theirs thus: 'By this that is mentioned, by this that is mentioned.' As time goes on, they get to know the whole tongue. [....] And in hell, in the animal kind of generation, in the realm of ghosts, in the human world and in the world of deities, everywhere the Maagadha tongue is foremost. >> Here is the [....] rest of the claim and a bit more from Ch 15 on Classification of the Discriminations (pa.tisambhidaavibha'nga) [or knowledges, analyses: of meaning, law, language & intelligence]. 1945. Dhammo ("law") in brief is a condition (paccaya). For that is called "law" (dhamma) because it contrives (vidahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur and allows it to arrive. But in particular, the 5 things, namely, any fruit-producing cause (hetu), the noble path [387] what is spoken, what is profitable, what is unprofitable, should be understood as law (dhamma). When one is reviewing that law, the knowledge which falls into the category concerned with law is the Discrimination of Law (dhammapa.tisambhidaa). 1946. Tattha dhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.na.m ("knowledge concerning the utterance of dhamma language therein"): that which is the natural language (sabhaavanirutti) concerning that meaning and that law; [knowledge] concerning the utterance of that. When one is reviewing that natural language by making the sound of it the object, the knowledge which falls into the category concerned with utterance of the natural language is the Discrimination of Language (niruttipa.tisambhidaa). Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound (words) as its object, not a concept as its object. 1947. Why? Because on hearing the sound, one knows that this is the natural language, this is not the natural language. For one who has attained this discrimination knows when phasso {2} is said that this is the uttering of the natural language; and he knows when phassaa or phassa.m {3} is said that this is not the natural language. So also with vedanaa, etc. {4} But does he know besides that the word is a noun (naama), verb (aakhyaata), prefix (upasagga), suffix (bya~njana) or not? From such time as, on hearing a word, he knows that "this is the natural language, this is not the natural language", from then on he knows that also. 2} = "contact"; correct masculine nominative singular ending. 3} Incorrect feminine and neuter nominative singular endings. 4} Cf. Vis 442 where the examples vedanaa, vedano are given. 1948. But the following story is told [in the commentary]{5} denying this, saying that it is not the function of this discrimination. It seems that the Elder Tissadatta took the golden ticket for preaching at the Wisdom Site and he offered: 'Which out of the 18 tongues shall I speak?' But that was offered by him out of reliance on his own learning, not out of reliance on the discrimination. For with his great understanding he had learnt each tongue by getting it spoken. It was after that that he offered this out of reliance on his learning. 1949. ... The mother is Tamil, the father is Andhaka. The child born of them, if he hears the mother's speech first, will speak the Tamil tongue; if he hears the father's speech first, he will speak the Andhaka tongue. But not hearing either speech, he will speak the Maagadha tongue. And he who is reborn in a great forest without a village and where there is no-one else who speaks, he too, when he creates speech of his own accord, will speak only the Maagadha tongue. ... 1950. Herein, the rest of the 18 tongues beginning with the O.t.ta, the Kiraata, the Andhaka, the Greek and the Tamil, change; only this Maagadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) usage, the noble usage, does not change. Also the Fully Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the Tipi.taka, did so only in the Maagadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is easy to deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the Buddha word announced in the text in the Maagadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the ears of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who has not reached the Discriminations {6}. ... 1952. But it should also be understood that these four Discriminations are classifiable in two stages and become manifest for 5 reasons. 1953. Which are the two? The plane of the trainer (sekkha-bhuumi) and the plane of the non-trainer (asekkha-bhuumi). [... gives examples...] Thus they are classifiable in these two planes. 1954. For which 5 reasons do they become manifest? 1) Through attainment (adhigama), 2) thru compentency [in scriptures] (pariyatti), 3) thru hearing (sava.na), 4) thru being questioned, 5) thru previous work (yoga). ... 1961. ... For whether or not there were competency, hearing and being questioned in the past, there is no Discrimination through previous work without comprehension of formations both in the past and now. [...] 47987 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self agriosinski Hi Herman, my observations: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: [...] > It is clear to me that there is no self that has set or is able to > change the goal of this stream of experience, which is simply to be > auto-perpetuating. It is also clear to me that there is no essential, > unchanging self that the stream of experience happens to. I think of many streams of dynamically created mutations of ever greedy selfes. > But what is > not clear to me is that this stream of experience is not *my* experience. > > I am what I see, I see what I am. > I am what I hear, I hear what I am. > I am what I feel, I feel what I am. > I am what I taste, I taste what I am. > I am what I smell, I smell what I am. > I am what I think, I think what I am. > > Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? these streams of freshly created selfs can only perform if they are believed in as reality. So they have to become something believable. In fact there is nothing there, except for some initial spark which is probably just some long passed away citta. but if there will be enough streams of self believable enough to survive - there will be knowledge: here I am like this. and "how am I" is just matter of which selfs survived at this particular moment. It will change. metta, Agrios 47988 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/21/05 5:35:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: [You, Herman, quoting yourself]: Was there, ever, a sense of self in the long long long term process of you acquiring your encyclopedic memory of the Canon and commentaries? > ... > S: > 1. I assure you (& Tep) that I don't have any sort of 'encyclopedic > memory' of anything. I have some references in texts that I've had for a long time that I can find more easily, that's all. === I have no problem with the fact that you remember heaps about your favourite topic, or that you know where to find what you want to say. === > > 2. There has been and is plenty of sense of self. === Thank you for your straight answer. === >Does this mean it should be cultivated rather than seen for what it >is? No. Will any wisdom arise as a result of any wrong views? No. === Would you recommend ceasing studying of the texts, given the dangers of being deluded as to why the study is taking place? === ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, here is the point, of course, and it is a good one, I think. During the lengthy (quite conventional BTW) period of (quite conventional ;-) study of texts, there are, as during virtually all conventional actions of nonarahants, INCLUDING THAT OF MEDITATION!! (my emphasis), many, many, many moments of defiled mentality - most moments probably, defiled by sense of self and by craving, attachment, and confusion (as to motives and other things). But a useful conventional action is exactly that, and the fact that one's mind is imperfect should not be dragged in to serve as an attempted justification for not doing what is helpful. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47989 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:43am Subject: The Buddha's last word htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, On request of Tep, I re-posted this. The Buddha's last word sounded like this_ '' Handa daani bhikkhave amantayaami vo : Vaya dhammaa sankhaaraa appamaadena sampaadetha''. Earnestness [appamaada] is explained as "presence of mindfulness." Comy.: "'You should accomplish all your duties without allowing mindfulness to lapse!' Thus did the Blessed One, while on the bed of his Parinibbana, summarize in that one word on earnestness the advice he had given through forty-five years." Just before going into silence, Bhagava last said, '' Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you : All compounded things are subjected to vanish. Strive with earnestness! '' Then went into silence. Venerable Ananda spoke to Venerable Anuruddha, '' Venerable Anuruddha, The Blessed One has passed away.'' Venerable Anuruddha said, ''No. Friend Ananda. The Blessed One has not passed away.'' The Blessed One went into 1st jhana then to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, boundless space, boundless consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception and back to nothingness, boundless consciousness, boundless space, 4th , 3rd, 2nd, 1st and emerged from that again went into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and then Mahaparinibbana was done. The king of Brahma said a verse. Next said Sakka, the king of Deva. '' Anicca vata sankhara, uppadavaya dhammino; Uppajjitva nirujjanti, te sam vupasamo sukho' ti.'' ''Transient are all compounded things, Subjected to arise and vanish; Having come into existence they pass away, Good is the peace when they forever cease.'' As Sakka said, everything is transient ( anicca ) and this great event of The Blessed One's Mahaparinibbana should never forgotten. And We all should pay special attention to The Buddha's last word '' Appama dena sampadetha'' ' Strive with earnestness'. Sati or mindfulness should be our companion. We have to bring it up all the time. www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html May you all pay attention to The Buddha's last word. With Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 47990 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:43am Subject: Meeting Phil robmoult Hi All, I just finished a four hour dinner with Phil (Naiomi couldn't make it). We have much in common (Buddhist Canadians, married to Asians) and some minor differences (Phil is better looking with more hair :-) ). What a variety of dhamma subjects were discussed! There was, from my perspective, a recurring theme of applying the dhamma to daily life. Of course, the subject of meditation was discussed and I shared with Phil the theme of my discussion a few days ago with Sarah and Jon in Hong Kong. I feel that I am moving closer to the understanding of Sarah and Jon (and Ken H). It is getting quite late and there have been more bombings in London, so I will fill in more details soon... Metta, Rob M :-) 47991 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:54am Subject: Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant abhidhammika Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Christine, Robert K, Mike Nease and all How are you? Another way of determining if an Arahant still had defilements as Mahasanghikas, the ancient ancestors of Mahayanists, and Mahayanists claimed, is to read the Buddha's own statements about the status of an Arahant. Gotama the Buddha described himself many times as Tathaagato Araham. The expression "Tathaagato Araham" occurs 20 times in Suttam Pali texts. The Buddha also described himself in terms of nine attributes. One of those nine attributes is the Buddha being an Araham. The Buddha's 9 attributes including the attribute of Araham occur in Suttam Pali texts as follows. The expression of attributes starting with "Iti pi so Bhagavaa Araham ..." occurs 79 times in Diighanikaayo, 49 times in Majjhimanikaayo, 25 times in Samyuttanikaayo, 31 times in Anguttaranikaayo, 1 time in Udaana, 1 time in Suttanipaata, and 8 times in Vinaya Pi.taka. What does the Buddha's repeated description of himself as an Arahant in those Suttam Pali texts show? They show (1) that the Buddha was the First Arahant, (2) that the Buddha also taught us how to become Arahants just like himself, (3) that the Buddha's disciples who followed his teachings faithfully and exactly also became Arahants just like himself, (4) that an Arahant has eradicated all the defilements as the Buddha has depleted defilements only by becoming an Arahant, and (5) that an Arahant can no longer be reborn as he has eradicated attachment for becoming someone (bhavata.nhaa, one of the defilements responsible for rebirth). If a Mahayanist claimed that an Arahant sill had defilements, then we now know for sure that that Mahayanist was merely an accuser and was uninfrmed, and was ignorant of what an Arahant is. With regards, Suan 47992 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:06am Subject: Re: Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Christine, Robert K, Mike Nease and all How are you? Another way of determining if an Arahant still had defilements as Mahasanghikas, the ancient ancestors of Mahayanists, and Mahayanists claimed, is to read the Buddha's own statements about the status of an Arahant. Gotama the Buddha described himself many times as Tathaagato Araham. The expression "Tathaagato Araham" occurs 20 times in .. .. ..If a Mahayanist claimed that an Arahant sill had defilements, then we now know for sure that that Mahayanist was merely an accuser and was uninfrmed, and was ignorant of what an Arahant is. With regards, Suan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Suan, Thanks for this post. You nicely summarised what is very important. The aim of all Buddhist is to become arahats. Becoming arahats means 'achieving ticket to nibbana'. This ticket will be asked for at the door of nibbana. :-)) Nibbana cannot be longed for with ta.nhaa. Because nibbana is not the object of ta.nhaa. With respect, Htoo Naing 47993 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:10am Subject: 10 Fetters or 10 Sa.myojanas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are 1. ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' or abhidhamma says there are 10 fetters. They are 1. ditthi samyojana (fetter of self-identity) 2. silabbataparaamaasa samyojana (fetter of ritualistic wrong-belief) 3. vicikicchaa samyojana (fetter of suspicion or doubt) 4. issaa samyojana (fetter of jealousy or envy) 5. macchariya samyojana (fetter of stinginess) 6. kaamaraaga samyojana (fetter of sensuality) 7. patigha samyojana (fetter of aggression or ill-will) 8. bhavaraaga samyojana (fetter of desire on existence) 9. maana samyojana (fetter of conceit) 10.avijjaa samyojana (fetter of ignorance) In both lists include all akusala dhamma. When both lists are compiled these are basic dhamma of these 2 sets of samyojana or fetters. 1. lobha(kaamaraaga, ruuparaaga, aruuparaaga// kaamaraaga, bhavaraaga) 2. dosa (patigha) 3. maana (maana) 4. ditthi (ditthi, silabbataparaamaasa) 5. vicikicchaa (vicikicchaa) 6. uddhacca (uddhacca) 7. issaa (issaa) 8. macchariya (macchariya) 9. moha (avijjaa) These 9 cetasika dhammas behave as fetters or samyojana. Now we know what (who/which) are samyojana. 1. Where do they arise? 2. When do they arise? 3. Why do they arise? 4. How do they arise? 5. Whose are they? a). Where do they arise? These 10 samyojanas or fetters arise at 1. eye (cakkhaayatana) 2. eye-object (ruupaayatana) or visual object 3. ear (sotaayatana) 4. ear-object (saddaayatana) or auditory object 5. nose (ghanaayatana) 6. nose-object(gandhaayatana) or olfactory object 7. tongue (jivhaayatana) 8. tongue-object(rasaayatana) or gustatory object 9. body (kaayaayatana) 10.body-object(photthabbaayatana)/tangible object 11.mind (manaayatana) 12.mind-object(dhammaayatana)/ thinkable object b). When do samyojana arise? When one of '6 external sense bases or bahiddha ayatanas that serve as object for the mind' arises. c). Why these 10 ayatana arise? Because they have not been eradicated and because 6 external sense bases are inappropriately attended. d). How do these 10 samyojana arise? They arise unnoticed, instantaneously and overwhelmingly. e). Whose are they? No one owns any samyojana. Samyojanas are dhamma. Dhamma are not self. They are impermanent. They are unsatisfactory. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47994 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/21/05 8:40:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word "self", I'll use auto. ========================= It just occurred to me that 'auto' is probably linguistically derived from the Sanskrit and Pali 'atta'! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47995 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:28am Subject: Re: Meeting Phil philofillet Hi all Just home. Yes, it was great. I came away with the same feeling that I had after meeting Rob K - having spent time with someone with great confidence in Dhamma, great appreciation of Dhamma. It was my first time since that meeting with Rob K ( a year ago now) to discuss Dhamma face to face with someone rather than through the computer, so it was good. Good timing too, because I really am coming to see quite clearly that it's time to back away from spending quite so much time on Dhamma study, and Rob tells me that it's been the same for him. The wives and for him the children and other other things naturally demanding more attention. So after Rob K I was left with my growing interest in Abhidhamma intensified, which was right for me then and with Rob M my need to step back a bit confirmed, and it was just right in both cases - so a nice kind of Middle Rob Way thing or something or other, not that one Rob represents one shore and the other the other....I will be meeting Rob K again in the first week of August, I think, and Rob M again later in August. Very fortunate am I. All right time for bed. I'll write some more this weekend. Metta, Phil p.s I think I forgot to thank you for dinner, Rob. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I just finished a four hour dinner with Phil 47996 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 7/21/05 10:55:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Christine, Robert K, Mike Nease and all How are you? Another way of determining if an Arahant still had defilements as Mahasanghikas, the ancient ancestors of Mahayanists, and Mahayanists claimed, is to read the Buddha's own statements about the status of an Arahant. Gotama the Buddha described himself many times as Tathaagato Araham. The expression "Tathaagato Araham" occurs 20 times in Suttam Pali texts. The Buddha also described himself in terms of nine attributes. One of those nine attributes is the Buddha being an Araham. The Buddha's 9 attributes including the attribute of Araham occur in Suttam Pali texts as follows. The expression of attributes starting with "Iti pi so Bhagavaa Araham ..." occurs 79 times in Diighanikaayo, 49 times in Majjhimanikaayo, 25 times in Samyuttanikaayo, 31 times in Anguttaranikaayo, 1 time in Udaana, 1 time in Suttanipaata, and 8 times in Vinaya Pi.taka. What does the Buddha's repeated description of himself as an Arahant in those Suttam Pali texts show? They show (1) that the Buddha was the First Arahant, (2) that the Buddha also taught us how to become Arahants just like himself, (3) that the Buddha's disciples who followed his teachings faithfully and exactly also became Arahants just like himself, (4) that an Arahant has eradicated all the defilements as the Buddha has depleted defilements only by becoming an Arahant, and (5) that an Arahant can no longer be reborn as he has eradicated attachment for becoming someone (bhavata.nhaa, one of the defilements responsible for rebirth). If a Mahayanist claimed that an Arahant sill had defilements, then we now know for sure that that Mahayanist was merely an accuser and was uninfrmed, and was ignorant of what an Arahant is. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with your analysis, Suan. There are no defilements in an arahant. Some Mahayanists distinguish between affective defilements (craving, aversion, and attachment) plus sense of personal self, which they agree are all absent in an arahant, and additional cognitive defilements, such as ignorance of phenomenal selflessness, that they believe are only fully absent in a Buddha. IMO, based on what I have read in the suttas, they are completely in error on this. What a Buddha "has" beyond an arahant is complete mastery of the perfections (paramitta) and a variety of acquired skillful means enabling him to be the perfect teacher and re-introducer of the Dhamma into a world in which recollection of Dhamma is missing. --------------------------------------------- With regards, Suan ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47997 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:03am Subject: Re: The Buddha's last word buddhistmedi... Hi, all - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > On request of Tep, I re-posted this. The Buddha's last word sounded like this_ > > '' Handa daani bhikkhave amantayaami vo : Vaya dhammaa sankhaaraa appamaadena sampaadetha''. > > Earnestness [appamaada] is explained as "presence of mindfulness." Comy.: "'You should accomplish all your duties without allowing mindfulness to lapse!' Thus did the Blessed One, while on the bed of his Parinibbana, summarize in that one word on earnestness the advice he had given through forty-five years." > > Just before going into silence, Bhagava last said, '' Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you : All compounded things are subjected to vanish. Strive with earnestness! '' > Tep: It is clearly evident that the commentaries underestimate heedfulness by explaining appamaada as "the presence of mindfulness", since Patitthita Sutta states that the other four faculties also go to the culmination of their development because of heedfulness. There is more to appamaada than just mindfulness, and here is why : Dwell Heedfully and Phenomena will Become Manifest -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [The Buddha talked to Nandiya the Sakyan about heedfulness in SN LV.40 Nandiya Sutta] "And how, Nandiya, does a disciple of the noble ones live heedfully? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering confidence in the Awakened One... Not content with that unwavering confidence in the Awakened One, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering confidence in the Dhamma... unwavering confidence in the Sangha... virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. Not content with those virtues pleasing to the noble ones, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-040.html Kind regards, Tep =============== 47998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meeting Phil nilovg Hi Phil and Rob M, thanks for your reports. I would be good to hear more details. Especially Rob's views on awareness now. And Phil: we should not regret to have only a little time for study, but I think you do not regret it. We can apply what we learn and can see Abhidhamma, or the Dhamma in all things. That is the marvellous thing of his teachings. So many opportunities to learn. Nina. op 21-07-2005 17:28 schreef Philip op philco777@...: The wives and for him the children and > other other things naturally demanding more attention. 47999 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant nilovg Dear Suan, Thank you for this useful and interesting post, Nina. op 21-07-2005 16:54 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@...: > > Gotama the Buddha described himself many times as Tathaagato Araham. > The expression "Tathaagato Araham" occurs 20 times in Suttam Pali texts.