48000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] gangtalk, discr. of language. nilovg Dear Connie, thank you for the texts. I quote for you Vis. Ch XIV, 25, Tiika about language, partly the same as your quote. and are not, this is the meaning that is shown. And in this manner there is not the wrong word. Therefore, the meaning of ³utterance² should be seen as the enunciation of this natural language by the constitution of speech. When one is reviewing that expression of natural language by making the sound of it the object, the knowledge that falls under the category of the utterance of natural language is the discrimination of language. Thus it is said, ³this discrimination of language comes to have sounds as its object, not a concept.² And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door process and afterwards in the mind-door process. As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ³The discrimination of language has a present object², it is said in this connection that after having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding.> ****** Nina. 48001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] 10 Fetters or 10 Sa.myojanas nilovg Dear Htoo, I especially like what you write under d and e. So true. The two different lists of samyojanas are not surprising as some people may think. There are so many different ways of classifying dhammas and different aspects are given. Countless methods of teaching. Nina. op 21-07-2005 17:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > d). How do these 10 samyojana arise? > > They arise unnoticed, instantaneously and overwhelmingly. > > e). Whose are they? > > No one owns any samyojana. Samyojanas are dhamma. Dhamma are not self. > They are impermanent. They are unsatisfactory. 48002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? nilovg Hi Tep, op 17-07-2005 18:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and > vipassana. > > Tep: I don't think so, Nina. I know many Buddhists who started with > correct intellectual understanding of the Dhamma 30 years ago, and > they are still with intellectual understanding today. They have not yet > transformed into dragons. > ----------------------- N: Each individual is so different, different accumulations stemming from past lives. Hard to tell. What I know is this: if there is a lack of developing all ten perfections, there are not enough conditions to be mindful of nama and rupa and develop direct understanding. One may sit with books all day and forget kusala that is right at hand, such as helping here and there in very daily matters. Or listening to someone who has problems. Very ordinary things. Then one does not think of oneself, and sure, it helps satipatthana. Also the clinging to result hinders. Or one may limit the objects of awareness and understanding, thinking that one has to be in a particular place, or limiting the time. The satipatthanasutta is so wide, so wide. It includes all daily objects, not only breath. They are means to bring us to paramattha dhammas and consider their true nature. Truly, the object of awareness is any dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Only one dhamma at a time, through only one doorway. Here is one of my favorite suttas (S.N.IV, 52):< "The world! The world!" is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?" "It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called 'the world." What crumbles away? The eye... objects... eye-consciousness... (the same for the other doorways.)> See, all these objects are taken separately, otherwise no crumbling away. When you hear a motor going on, you may pay attention to this kind of sound, and that is not hearing. In between there are also moments of just hearing, and these can be known as different. So your world crumbles away. ------- T: I don't know how to start at the "right understanding" you are describing. ------- N: It develops because of its own conditions. No use of thinking how to start. Then we are planning, and this is not possible. -------- T: I know one way to get to that advanced level is by practicing indriya- > samvara-sila with khanti and viriya to support the four foundations of > mindfulness, according to the Kundaliya Sutta. Even indriya-samvara- > sila does not depend on intellectual understanding anymore. ------- N: But indriya-samvara- sila is satipatthana. When there is mindfulness of any nama or rupa the doorways are guarded. It is called sila, because kusala through body, speech and mind can be classified as sila. But for satipatthana the right conditions are necessary, among them intellectual understanding. Otherwise we do not know *of what* to be aware. The objects of intellectual understanding are the same as those of satipatthana: nama and rupa. The objects do not change but understanding develops. Khanti and viriya are among the ten perfections, right. Very important. Nina. 48003 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah and Htoo, Yea Yahoo links threads erroneously on the bottom. It does it to messages that are posted close to each other. Usually happen with Sarah's cetasika posts and others. - kel 48004 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:15pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,171 egberdina Hi Sarah, I overshot the runway on this one. I am sorry about that. Thanks for explaining some more. It is more clear again. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman & Antony, > > --- Egbert wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > > The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I > > presume, whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG > > last year as Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him > > > to post again. > > > > > > Many things became clearer on reading this. I was very puzzled at the > > time Matt was posting about the group dynamics that seemed to come out > > of nowhere. I am referring to the loud cheering that came from the > > sidelines every time Ivan posted. > .... > S: It was a puzzle. Some of us liked his posts a lot. He was new to the > list and we encouraged him without any idea about who he was or where he > came from. None of us had the slightest idea that it was an old friend, > Ivan, who was posting. Even those who see him at weekly sessions in > Bangkok like Sukin had no idea. We only found out recently on a visit when > he 'spilt the beans' that he was the 'mystery man'. Matt is his middle > name, he told us, so it is a 'real' name....:/. If I recall, Azita > questioned him on this point..... > > Recently, I believe you expressed your admiration for a couple of Howard's > posts. I was genuinely glad for his sake when you showed your > appreciation. I believe this is an example of 'ringing the bell' which > Antony gave a nice literal example of. > 48005 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" egberdina Hi Tep, > > Hi Herman {Sarah and others} - > > I am sorry to be the first to respond to your invitation to join. No need to be sorry, unless you regret writing to me :-) > > H: > > > I am what I see, I see what I am. > > I am what I hear, I hear what I am. > > I am what I feel, I feel what I am. > > I am what I taste, I taste what I am. > > I am what I smell, I smell what I am. > > I am what I think, I think what I am. > > > > Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? > > > > Tep: It sounds like 'This is I, this is my self'. Don't you think so? I tried to be very careful and steer away from any ideas of self as controller or essence. I am reminded of this from the "lesser discourse on emptiness", which realisation comes as the climax of the sutta. "And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition." I am this very body, no more, no less. I am this very auto-regulating, auto-referencing, auto-matic body. And when this very body refers to itself, it is this body, my body. As opposed to that body, which is not my body. Again, I hasten to point out, this, my body, is unable to act outside of the parameters that guide it, and which it did not set for itself, and this body changes from moment to moment. Does this allay your concerns about self any better ? Kind Regards Herman > > H: > But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe > > the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a > > functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just > > Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word > > "self", I'll use auto. > > > > Tep: That is a clever description, Herman. You have now become an > authority on self. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Sarah and all, > > > > The following paragraph prompted me to write this post. > > > > > the sooner we see that it is citta and its accompanying cetasikas > > which experience objects rather than any self, the better. There can > > be awareness now of seeing or hearing or thinking without any > > attending to objects with a sense of self, wouldn't you say? > > > > > > > I think the word "self" has had an unnecessarily troubled history at > > dsg. For me, there are uses of "self" that are confused, but there are > > some uses of "self" which are quite justified. > > 48006 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Agrios, > [...] > > It is clear to me that there is no self that has set or is able to > > change the goal of this stream of experience, which is simply to be > > auto-perpetuating. It is also clear to me that there is no > essential, > > unchanging self that the stream of experience happens to. > > I think of many streams of dynamically created mutations of > ever greedy selfes. == Sure, agreed. > > > But what is > > not clear to me is that this stream of experience is not *my* > experience. > > > > I am what I see, I see what I am. > > I am what I hear, I hear what I am. > > I am what I feel, I feel what I am. > > I am what I taste, I taste what I am. > > I am what I smell, I smell what I am. > > I am what I think, I think what I am. > > > > Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? > > these streams of freshly created selfs can only perform > if they are believed in as reality. So they have to become > something believable. In fact there is nothing there, > except for some initial spark which is probably just some > long passed away citta. > === Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I think there are many kinds of animals that lack the capacity for beliefs of any kind. They lack the capacity for thought. Yet they live, and die, and live and die, going back millions and millions of years. So I do not think that belief is a pre-requisite for existence. > but if there will be enough streams of self believable > enough to survive - there will be knowledge: > here I am like this. > > and "how am I" is just matter of which selfs survived > at this particular moment. It will change. > Yes, guaranteed. Kind Regards Herman > > metta, > Agrios 48007 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/21/05 8:40:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe > the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a > functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just > Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word > "self", I'll use auto. > ========================= > It just occurred to me that 'auto' is probably linguistically derived > from the Sanskrit and Pali 'atta'! :-) > === That could very well be right. Very interesting indeed. Kind Regards Herman 48008 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 egberdina Hi Nina, > > In the ultimate sense there are no things we can possess, there are only naama and ruupa which are impermanent. Dhammas which arise and fall away do not belong to us and we cannot keep them. Why are we stingy about what does not belong to us? I know you are speaking here in the context of generousity and stinginess. So I am not disagreeing with you here. But I do think we are the possessors of our kamma, we are the possessors of all that we have thought, spoken and done, all that we have learnt. Not only do these belong to us, they are us, and shape who we will be tomorrow. And we cannot give this away, no matter how much we would like to. Kind Regards Herman 48009 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: [...] > Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I think there are many kinds of > animals that lack the capacity for beliefs of any kind. They lack the > capacity for thought. Yet they live, and die, and live and die, going > back millions and millions of years. So I do not think that belief is > a pre-requisite for existence. Hi Herman, I can't say that thinking is necessary for belief to form. I think experience is necessary and memory of some sort. metta, Agrios and Happy Asalha Puja to everyone! 48010 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" Evan_Stamato... Herman, This is not myself whether internal or external. With Metta, Evan I am this very body, no more, no less. I am this very auto-regulating, auto-referencing, auto-matic body. And when this very body refers to itself, it is this body, my body. As opposed to that body, which is not my body. Again, I hasten to point out, this, my body, is unable to act outside of the parameters that guide it, and which it did not set for itself, and this body changes from moment to moment. Does this allay your concerns about self any better ? Kind Regards Herman 48011 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? buddhistmedi... Dear Nina {Attn. : Sarah, Herman, Howard, Larry, Hasituppada, James, Kelvin, Colette} - Your message #48002 plays your familiar theme song again. Its central component is satipatthana with a panca-dvara object; the background melodies are the 'intellectual understanding' and the 'ten perfections'. The song plays without a directing 'self' (no musicians?) and with no intention, attention, or concern when it may end (hence, no lobha?). I wonder if this "theme song" is so general that it subsumes the whole Teachings of the Buddha. I said this because whatever dhamma from whatever suttas I had brought up, you seemed to be able to either politely reject it or turn it around to fit within that theme. >N: What I know is this: if there is a lack of developing all ten perfections, there are not enough conditions to be mindful of nama and rupa and develop direct understanding. >N: One may sit with books all day and forget kusala that is right at hand, such as helping here and there in very daily matters. Or listening to someone who has problems. Very ordinary things. Then one does not think of oneself, and sure, it helps satipatthana. >N: Truly, the object of awareness is any dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Only one dhamma at a time, through only one doorway. > Here is one of my favorite suttas (S.N.IV, 52): < "The world! The world!" is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?" "It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called 'the world." What crumbles away? The eye... objects... eye-consciousness... (the same for the other doorways.)> > See, all these objects are taken separately, otherwise no crumbling away. > >> T: I don't know how to start at the "right understanding" you are >> describing. > ------- > N: It develops because of its own conditions. No use of thinking how >to start. Then we are planning, and this is not possible. > -------- > T: I know one way to get to that advanced level is by practicing >>indriya-samvara-sila with khanti and viriya to support the four >>foundations of mindfulness, according to the Kundaliya Sutta. >>Even indriya-samvara-sila does not depend on intellectual >>understanding anymore. > ------- > N: But indriya-samvara- sila is satipatthana. When there is mindfulness >of any nama or rupa the doorways are guarded. It is called sila, >because kusala through body, speech and mind can be classified as sila. >N: But for satipatthana the right conditions are necessary, >among them intellectual understanding. Otherwise we do not know > *of what* to be aware. >N: The objects of intellectual understanding are the same as >those of satipatthana: nama and rupa. The objects do not change but >understanding develops. Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 17-07-2005 18:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and > > vipassana. > > > > Tep: I don't think so, Nina. I know many Buddhists who started with > > correct intellectual understanding of the Dhamma 30 years ago, and > > they are still with intellectual understanding today. They have not yet > > transformed into dragons. > > ----------------------- 48012 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Herman, Below is the definition of auto from the oxford dictionary: Jacket image of the Compact Oxford English Dictionary auto-1 (usu. aut- before a vowel) * combining form 1 self: autocrat. 2 one's own: autograph. 3 automatic; spontaneous: autoxidation. - ORIGIN from Greek autos 'self'. So as you can see, it really is just another word for self. No, I think you have to use a term that is not specific such as "the aggregates" or the Pali word "khandhas". With Metta, Evan 48013 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" egberdina Hi Evan, I reckon it's cute how sometimes the disclaimer at the end of the post is bigger than the message of the post :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Herman, > > This is not myself whether internal or external. I am not sure what to make of this. Are you denying you body? Or are you disowning your body? Or are you saying that it is a body, just not yours or anyone elses? Kind Regards Herman > > With Metta, > > Evan > > I am this very body, no more, no less. I am this very auto-regulating, > auto-referencing, auto-matic body. And when this very body refers to > itself, it is this body, my body. As opposed to that body, which is not > my body. > > Again, I hasten to point out, this, my body, is unable to act outside of > the parameters that guide it, and which it did not set for itself, and > this body changes from moment to moment. > > > Does this allay your concerns about self any better ? > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > 48014 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > [...] > > Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I think there are many kinds > of > > animals that lack the capacity for beliefs of any kind. They lack > the > > capacity for thought. Yet they live, and die, and live and die, > going > > back millions and millions of years. So I do not think that belief > is > > a pre-requisite for existence. > > Hi Herman, > > I can't say that thinking is necessary for belief to form. > I think experience is necessary and memory of some sort. > > Yes, well said. Kind Regards Herman > metta, > Agrios > > and Happy Asalha Puja to everyone! 48015 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Evan, Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Below is the definition of auto from the oxford dictionary: > > > Jacket image of the Compact Oxford English Dictionary > > > auto-1 > > (usu. aut- before a vowel) > > * combining form 1 self: autocrat. 2 one's own: autograph. 3 > automatic; spontaneous: autoxidation. > > - ORIGIN from Greek autos 'self'. > > So as you can see, it really is just another word for self. No, I think > you have to use a term that is not specific such as "the aggregates" or > the Pali word "khandhas". > Isn't there something that binds the stream of khandas together into this stream and that stream? I think Agrios hit it on the head when he brought memory into play. Aren't memories very specific to each individual? Kind Regards Herman 48016 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" Evan_Stamato... Hi Herman, ------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Evan, I reckon it's cute how sometimes the disclaimer at the end of the post is bigger than the message of the post :-) ------------------------------- Evan: Not happy about this myself. Unfortunately it is much more convenient for me to respond from work with the only disadvantage being the silly disclaimer being added each time I send an email. ------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Herman, > > This is not myself whether internal or external. I am not sure what to make of this. Are you denying you body? Or are you disowning your body? Or are you saying that it is a body, just not yours or anyone elses? ------------------------------- Evan: It is just a body. Impermanent, conditional. It is not "mine", "I" am not in it, it does not belong to "me" nor "anyone" else. ------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ------------------------------- With Metta, Evan 48017 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Herman, ---------------------- Herman wrote: Isn't there something that binds the stream of khandas together into this stream and that stream? I think Agrios hit it on the head when he brought memory into play. Aren't memories very specific to each individual? ---------------------- Yes, there is something that binds the stream of khandas together. Conditionality. With Metta, Evan 48018 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: [...] > > I can't say that thinking is necessary for belief to form. > > I think experience is necessary and memory of some sort. > > > > > > Yes, well said. Hi Herman, you agree? just thinking, belief in Self blinds us to dhammas as they are. but what bounds us to perpetual existence is lobha and avija. We are no better then worms experiencing some irritations, just more lucky with this vippaka. It will change as well :-) metta, Agrios 48019 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, I read through all the responses to you so far. The essense of your question is : > not clear to me is that this stream of experience is not > *my* experience. I think it is my experience, it definitely not other's. If we look at it as results from our past actions then this is definitely mine. It would go along way if people accepted this and own up to it without blaming others or outside agents for their current experience. - kel 48020 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant mlnease Dear Htoo and Suan, > Thanks for this post. You nicely summarised what is very important. Agreed-- > Nibbana cannot be longed for with ta.nhaa. Because nibbana is not the > object of ta.nhaa. As I understand it, in a moment of kusalakamma ta.nhaa is replaced by chanda (in the context of conditioned origination). So the wholesome intent to attain nibbaana is still possible. mike 48021 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:58pm Subject: Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, You try too hard and care too much. As you know there are many different ways of classifying the teachings. Buddha did teach one thing but he recognized people start at different places and brought them along differently. So we can always collapse anything back to the essence. It doesn't mean though all the paths are exactly the same. I'm a young guy so I think about a female monkey, a woman and a female deva. Comparing their beauties, I much rather have a female deva. So I'm working toward obtaining a female deva. Am I practicing correctly? - kel 48022 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Kel, Experience of what is "mine"? Mind? Physical body? Mind states arise and fall on condition. Physical body arises and falls on condition. One can therefore only look at these rightly as: "This is not me, This is not mine, This I am not". (Actually, could someone get the exact quote here because I have not been able to find it). This is what needs to be accepted and owned up to. There is only process not my process or his/her process. With Metta, Evan Hi Herman, I read through all the responses to you so far. The essense of your question is : > not clear to me is that this stream of experience is not > *my* experience. I think it is my experience, it definitely not other's. If we look at it as results from our past actions then this is definitely mine. It would go along way if people accepted this and own up to it without blaming others or outside agents for their current experience. - kel 48023 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Kel, > > Experience of what is "mine"? > > Mind? > Physical body? > > Mind states arise and fall on condition. Physical body arises and falls > on condition. > > One can therefore only look at these rightly as: "This is not me, This > is not mine, This I am not". (Actually, could someone get the exact > quote here because I have not been able to find it). > >____________________\ Dear Evan .The Discourse on Effacement Sallekha Sutta "Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[ these views arise, in which they underlie and become active, is seen with right wisdom as it actually is, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self'-- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding, takes place in him [who thus sees]." Robertk 48024 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes fir... upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - In a message dated 7/21/05 9:58:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: I'm a young guy so I think about a female monkey, a woman and a female deva. Comparing their beauties, I much rather have a female deva. So I'm working toward obtaining a female deva. Am I practicing correctly? ======================== Yeah, doin' great, Kel! ;-)))) I'm an old guy, but my chief defilement is also that of sensual craving! But, hey, at least I know I'm alive! ;-) You know, as I recall, though I don't recall the source, the Buddha indicated that craving is far, far less of a defilement than hatred, but it is a tougher one to get rid of or even moderate. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48025 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Robert, Thanks for that. Is there also a sutta in which the Buddha iterates through each of the khandhas and shows that each is impermanent and not self and therefore should be considered as 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self'? With Metta, Evan ------------------- Dear Evan .The Discourse on Effacement Sallekha Sutta "Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[ these views arise, in which they underlie and become active, is seen with right wisdom as it actually is, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self'-- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding, takes place in him [who thus sees]." Robertk 48026 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thanks for that. Is there also a sutta in which the Buddha iterates > through each of the khandhas and shows that each is impermanent and not > self and therefore should be considered as 'This is not mine, this I am > not, this is not my self'? > ______ Dear Evan, here you go; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059a.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta Robert 48027 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for this exposition on avarice. It is a very common phenomenon that I often overlook. It is also interesting that it arises with dosa. This makes perfect sense, but I had previously thought it would arise with greed (lobha). Larry 48028 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Thanks :))) Exactly what I was looking for. -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rjkjp1 Sent: Friday, 22 July 2005 1:43 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thanks for that. Is there also a sutta in which the Buddha iterates > through each of the khandhas and shows that each is impermanent and not > self and therefore should be considered as 'This is not mine, this I am > not, this is not my self'? > ______ Dear Evan, here you go; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059a.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta Robert 48029 From: connie Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:02pm Subject: Re: gangtalk, discr. of language. nichiconn Thank you, Nina, for Vism tiika quote on language in #48000. I think this is beautiful, from p351PTS2001 <> peace, connie 48030 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self kelvin_lwin Evan, So? I don't get the point of showing me the formulaic things i can recite verbatim. I didn't think that was what Herman wanted to discuss either. The point is, everyone is separate streams of consciousness fully responsible for themselves. I don't see necessity of having to preface every conventional useage with anatta or paramattha'ized words. It's like a curse word to use self without someone pouncing on the list pointing out the obvious. - kel > Experience of what is "mine"? > > Mind? > Physical body? 48031 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Kel, The Buddha also used commonly used terms such as you me him her I etc. I don't think that we shouldn't use such terms which imply a self. With Metta, Evan 48032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Hi Larry, Greed conditions it. See the text of the Book of Analysis: . We want to protect what we have and are averse from giving it to someone else. People cling to different object and one person may be stingy with regard to money, another with regard to praising others. The unpleasant feeling is a good warning sign, I find. Nina. op 22-07-2005 05:50 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Thanks for this exposition on avarice. It is a very common phenomenon > that I often overlook. It is also interesting that it arises with dosa. > This makes perfect sense, but I had previously thought it would arise > with greed (lobha). 48033 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes fir... nilovg Hi Howard, yes, I remember. The non-returner eradicates dosa, but only the arahat eradicates all forms of craving. Craving is so dangerous, because for us worldlings it often is clinging to wrong view. That is far more dangerous than any sensuous clinging. Nina. op 22-07-2005 04:55 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > You know, as I recall, though I don't recall the source, the Buddha > indicated that craving is far, far less of a defilement than hatred, but it is > a > tougher one to get rid of or even moderate. 48034 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my favorite tune, to Tep. nilovg Hi Tep, op 22-07-2005 01:34 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Your message #48002 plays your familiar theme song again. Its central > component is satipatthana with a panca-dvara object; the background > melodies are the 'intellectual understanding' and the 'ten perfections'. > The song plays without a directing 'self' (no musicians?) and with no > intention, attention, or concern when it may end (hence, no lobha?). ------- Yea, I hope to sing it until my death. I tune in with the suttas in order to stay in harmony with the entire Tipitaka and Commentaries. ------- T: I wonder if this "theme song" is so general that it subsumes the whole > Teachings of the Buddha. I said this because whatever dhamma from > whatever suttas I had brought up, you seemed to be able to either > politely reject it or turn it around to fit within that theme. ------ N: Can you quote me where I rejected a sutta or turned it around? When you quote a sutta I like to study it line by line with the Commentary, because it is so easy to misinterprete the text. I know this takes time, and I do not always have enough time to respond to the suttas you quote. If you like, we can discuss the Kundali sutta you often quoted. (Saturday is usually my day off). Going with it slowly. Perhaps you could post the sutta again. James and I have the B.B. translation, but this is not on line. This can be a new sutta thread I spoke about with James. I see that the Co. mentions a musical instrument, how apt ;-)) Did you receive from Sri Lanka the Great Discourse on Causation? That is again quite a study. I hope that everybody will join in with my favorite tune. Nina. 48035 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:47am Subject: The luckiest monk christine_fo... Dear Group, A Dhamma friend asked about someone called Savalee (sp.?), "the luckiest monk". He said he wasn't sure of the exact spelling of the name, but that he had seen statues all over Thailand. Can anyone help? metta, Chris 48036 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Hi Herman, Agreed, the context of kamma that produces result is different. In a way we possess kamma, but in the ultimate sense there is nobody who possesses kamma. There are only conditioned phenomena arising and falling away. This can help us when we are unhappy and think: why does this happen to me, or why do I have to receive result of a deed done in a former life. Many such questions can come up. We cannot trace which kamma produces result, but is it not enough to know that an unpleasant experience through the senses is conditioned already? That nobody in the world can change it? Not even a Buddha could change the law of cause and result. Nina. op 22-07-2005 01:02 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > But I do think we are the possessors of our kamma, we are the > possessors of all that we have thought, spoken and done, all that we > have learnt. Not only do these belong to us, they are us, and shape > who we will be tomorrow. And we cannot give this away, no matter how > much we would like to. 48037 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: The luckiest monk htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > A Dhamma friend asked about someone called Savalee (sp.?), "the > luckiest monk". He said he wasn't sure of the exact spelling of the > name, but that he had seen statues all over Thailand. Can anyone > help? > > metta, > Chris -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, The Buddha appointed 'Venerable Siivali' as 'the luckiest monk amongs His disciple-monks' or 'etadagga'. You can explore by using 'search word'. Or you can look for at Nibbana.com and search for great monks. In a life, Siivali-to-be was at war and his army obstructed the enemy city for about 12 years. This kamma gave him back as 'long gestation period'. But Siivali was always always fortunate and lucky. Even The Buddha had to eat 'crushed rice' when there was femine. But Siivali never experienced such. Even in the middle of jungle Siivali was offered food by monkeys etc. You have a good source of literature than me. You will find it soon. When you do so please let me know. With respect, Htoo Naing 48038 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 453 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala These individuals can have a) kaama ahetuka kiriya-javana ( 1 hasituppaada or smiling) b) kaama sahetuka kiriya-javana ( 8 mahaakiriya cittas ) c) ruupa-kiriya-javana ( 5 ruupakiriya cittas ) d) aruupa-kiriya-javana (4 aruupakiriya cittas) e) arahatta phala-javana ( 1 arahatta phala citta ). Altogether these 19 cittas can function as javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness. No other javana citta can arise in these arahats. Javanas that cannot arise in arahats are a) akusala-javana ( 12 akusala cittas ) b) kaama kusala-javana ( 8 mahakusala cittas ) c) ruupa kusala-javana ( 5 rupakusala cittas ) d) aruupa kusala-javana (4 arupakusala cittas ) e) lokuttara kusala-javana or magga-javana ( 4 magga cittas ) f) sotapatti, sakadagami, and anagami phala-javana ( 3 phala cittas ) These 36 cittas cannot arise in arahatts as javana cittas. 19 + 36 = 55 total javana cittas. Javana cittas have been discussed in the javana portions of Dhamma Thread. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 48039 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:08am Subject: What is Right Speech ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this imperative Right Speech ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness & Right Concentration! But what is Right Speech ? The 4-fold Definition of Right Speech: 1: Avoiding Lying and any False Speech... 2: Abstaining from every Divisive Talk... 3: Refraining from all Angry Scolding... 4: Stilling of any Idle & Empty Gossiping... That is Right Speech! The Characterization of Noble Speech: Eliminating any false speech the Noble Friend dwells avoiding all lies, a truth-speaker, one to be relied on, trustworthy, loyal, not a deceiver of the world. Not speaking divisively or splitting, he does not tell them there, what he has heard about those here, or repeat here, what he heard there, harming those there. Thus is he a reconciler of those in conflict & a diplomat ending quarrels. The Noble Friend is rejoicing in peace, loving it, delighting in it, one who defends peace. Abandoning all harsh & aggressive speech he does not scold. He speaks whatever is blameless and pleasing to the ear, agreeable, touching the heart, elegant, gratifying and appealing to the many. Discarding idle & empty chatter, he speaks at the right time & only about what is correct, advantageous and to the point, of Dhamma and Self-Control. He is a speaker, whose words are to be treasured, timely, reasoned, well-defined, well-formulated, beneficial and leading to the goal... This is Noble Right Speech! The Ten Advantageous Subjects: Talk on the Modesty of having few wants, Talk on the Bliss of Contentment, Talk on the Joy of Seclusion, Talk on the Ease of Disentanglement, Talk on the Energy of Enthusiasm, Talk on the Advantage of Morality, Talk on the Calm of Concentration, Talk on the Insight of Understanding, Talk on the Freedom of Release, Talk on the Direct Experience & Vision of Release ... Such is Advantageous Right Speech! The many kinds of Pointless Talk: Such as talk on kings, robbers, ministers, armies, dangers, wars, foods, drinks, clothing, furniture, jewellery, cosmetics, relatives, vehicles, villages, towns, cities, countries, women, heroes, places, amusements, the dead, trifles, the origin of the world, the origin of the sea, whether metaphysical things are so or are not so... Such talk is useless, irrelevant, detrimental, empty of any good... Knowing right & wrong speech as right & wrong speech, is right view. Awareness of presence of right & wrong speech, is right awareness. Exchanging wrong speech with right speech, is right effort... Further study of Buddhist Right Speech (Samma-Vaca): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vaca.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 48040 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: The luckiest monk christine_fo... Dear Htoo, I knew if anyone could help, it would be you! :-) Thank you so much for the correct spelling . :-) Here are a couple of links I found using your information. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/s/siivalii.htm http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2n.htm (scroll down) with gratitude and metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > A Dhamma friend asked about someone called Savalee (sp.?), "the > > luckiest monk". He said he wasn't sure of the exact spelling of > the > > name, but that he had seen statues all over Thailand. Can anyone > > help? > > > > metta, > > Chris > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Christine, > > The Buddha appointed 'Venerable Siivali' as 'the luckiest monk amongs > His disciple-monks' or 'etadagga'. > > You can explore by using 'search word'. Or you can look for at > Nibbana.com and search for great monks. > > In a life, Siivali-to-be was at war and his army obstructed the enemy > city for about 12 years. This kamma gave him back as 'long gestation > period'. > > But Siivali was always always fortunate and lucky. Even The Buddha > had > to eat 'crushed rice' when there was femine. But Siivali never > experienced such. > > Even in the middle of jungle Siivali was offered food by monkeys etc. > You have a good source of literature than me. You will find it soon. > When you do so please let me know. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 48041 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:16am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 08 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movements' 4. 99 contemplation on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplation on 'body element' There are 4 contemplations on 'body element'. They are 1. contemplation on earthy element of body (earth element/ pathavi) 2. contemplation on flowy element of body (water element/ apo) 3. contemplation on heaty element of body (temperature/ tejo) 4. contemplation on moving element of body (pressure/ vayo). There are 4 contemplations on own body, another 4 contemplations on others' body and another 4 contemplations on both own and others' body. Therefore there are 12 contemplations on body. There are 3 more extra contemplations on body elements. They are 1. contemplation on origination of body element 2. contemplation on dissolution of body element 3. contemplation on both origination and dissolution of body element So there are altogether a total of 15 contemplation on body elements. Along with 192 contemplations on body there are in total so far 207 contemplations on body out of 261 contemplations. There left 54 contemplations on body. There are 32 body parts. 20 are pathavi or earth-element and 12 are apo or water-element. There are 4 tejo or fire-element and 6 vayo or water-element. So altogether there are 42 things to be contemplated. a) pathavi dhaatu or 'earth-element' These are earthy, fleshy, solidy, massy and have characters of hardness, firmness, softness, roughness, smoothness, tenderness. There are 20 body parts that have mostly earth-element or pathavii dhaatu. 1. kesa (hair) 2. loma (body-hairs) 3. nakhaa(nail) 4. dantaa(teeth) 5. taco (skin) 6. ma.msam (flesh) 7. hnaaru (sinew/ligment) 8. a.tthi (bone) 9. a.tthimi.mja.m (bone-marrow) 10.vakka.m (kidney) 11. hadaya.m (heart) 12. yakana.m (liver) 13. kilomaka.m (membrane) 14. pihaka.m (spleen) 15. papphaasa.m (lung) 16. anta.m (intestine) 17. antaguna.m (mesentery) 18. udariya.m (gorge/stomach content) 19. kariisa.m (feces/rectum content) 20. matthalu.mga.m (brain) b) apo dhaatu or water-element These body parts have characters of flowability, fluidity, stickiness, oozingness, liquidity, etc etc. This means that even though there are all 4 elements in these 12 body parts they are in excess of water- element or apo dhaatu. 1. pitta.m (bile) 2. sehma.m (phlegm) 3. pubbo (pus) 4. lohita.m (blood) 5. sedo (sweat) 6. medo (mass of fat) 7. assu (tear) 8. vasaa (liquid fat) 9. khe.lo (saliva) 10.si.mghaanikaa (mucus) 11.lasikaa (synovial fluid) 12.mutta.m (urine) c) tejo dhaatu or fire-element 1. santappana tejo or 'pyrexial temperature' 2. jira.na tejo or 'metabolic temperature' that grows the skin old 3. daaha tejo or 'hyperpyrexic temperature' 4. paacaka tejo or 'digestive temperature'/ 'reactionary temperature' d) vayo dhaatu or wind-element 1. uddha`ngama vayo or 'upgoing wind' or 'belching wind' 2. adhogama vayo or 'downgoing wind' or 'wind that is let out' 3. kucchisaya vayo or 'peritoneal pressure'/'wind outside intestine' 4. ko.tthaasaya vayo or 'intestinal gas right in the intestine' 5. angamangaanusaarii vayo or 'transmitting wave through out body part 6. assaasapassaasa vayo or 'respiratory air' /'breathing air' The skill butchers kill cows and then heap all meat up at the junctions of cross-road at 4 corners to sell meat. When meat is seen there is no idea of 'cow'. Like this, The skill contemplators or meditators or Dhamma practitioners or kaayaanupassii or body-contemplators examine the body and find that there are body parts and they are just elements and they are pathavii or earth element (20), apo or water element (12), tejo or fire- element or temperature (4), and vayo or wind element (6). When elements are seen there is no idea of 'self' 'man' 'woman'. The practitioner perceives these elements in his own body (4 contemplations). Sometimes he perceives that these 4 elements are also arising in others' body (4 contemplations). At another time, he perceives that there are 4 elements arising in his own body and others' body (4 contemplations). At the time when he perceives 'this is hair' there is a mind. That mind or citta does arise and fall away. The idea of 'hair' is not groundless like 'proper name or personal name'. These do exist basic ruupa for hair. Those ruupa arise and fall away. There are origination of these citta and its arammana or object. They do not last long and they just dissolve or disappear soon. There are dissolution of these cittas and their objects. After these 2 extra contemplations there sometimes perceive the third contemplation that there are origination and dissolution of these dhamma. So there are 12 contemplations on 4 body elements and 3 extra contemplations on origination, dissolution, both origination and dissolution. SO there are altogether 15 contemplations on body elements. There are still 54 contemplations on 'body foulness' as body contemplation or kaayaanupassana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48042 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: The luckiest monk htootintnaing Dear Christine, You now provide me a good source. I just drew out from my memory. Now it is a bit clear that the obstruction was for 7 days and not for 12 years. I think I confused with 'some history of non-religious matters'. Anyway thanks for your serach and provision of links. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Hoping Mom is back to normal health. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I knew if anyone could help, it would be you! :-) Thank you so much > for the correct spelling . :-) Here are a couple of links I found > using your information. > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/s/siivalii.htm > > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2n.htm > (scroll down) > > with gratitude and metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" 48043 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:52am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 254- Attachment/lobha (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Lobha can be accompanied by indifferent feeling and then it is not as intense as when it is accompanied by pleasant feeling. When we want to go somewhere or want to do something, lobha is likely to arise, but it may not always be accompanied by pleasant feeling, there may be indifferent feeling instead. Lobha-mśla-citta with indifferent feeling is likely to arise countless times, but we are so ignorant, we do not notice it. All degrees of lobha are dangerous, even the more subtle forms of lobha. When we do evil deeds which harm others it is evident that lobha is dangerous. But when lobha is only enjoyment of a pleasant sight or sound and we do not harm other people, we find it harder to see the danger of lobha. Lobha, be it gross or more subtle, makes us enslaved. When there is lobha we cling to the object which is experienced at that moment and we take it for happiness. The next moment the pleasant object is gone and then we are likely to have aversion. The Buddha reminded people of the futility of sense-pleasures. We read in the Dhammapada (verses 146-149): * "What is laughter, what is joy, when the world is ever burning? Shrouded by darkness, do you not seek a light? Behold this beautiful body, a mass of sores, a heaped-up (lump), diseased, much thought of, in which nothing lasts, nothing persists. Thoroughly worn out is this body, a nest of diseases, perishable; This putrid mass breaks up; truly life ends in death." * ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 48044 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:59am Subject: Seclusion Week ( Htoo is away - 22.07.05) htootintnaing Seclusion Week Seculsio O! calmness, done that ever Delusio O! damn-black, come back never. Goodbye that black, alert the master aware Hood-ties that black, smart the master dare. Stocking up wisery, lorry coundn't help Docking at library, worry coundn't snare. Energo to store, week will be bare Enhearto to grow, week will be well. HTOO NAING (22.07.05) Seclusio = seclusion Delusio = delusion damn-black = jet-black = complete darkness = avijjaa = ignorance the master = the mind Hood-ties = tie-hood = sa.myojana = fetters --> avijja sa.myojana wisery = those dhamma that make wise lorry = computers, softwares, books, texts Docking at library = giving time in research for dhamma materials worry = the will to save dhamma materials snare = threaten Energo = energy week will be bare = the coming week will not be used (internet) Enhearto = things that are packed into the mind week will be well = feel free in the week 48045 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Kel (and Evan) - In a message dated 7/22/05 12:49:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: Evan, So? I don't get the point of showing me the formulaic things i can recite verbatim. I didn't think that was what Herman wanted to discuss either. The point is, everyone is separate streams of consciousness fully responsible for themselves. I don't see necessity of having to preface every conventional useage with anatta or paramattha'ized words. It's like a curse word to use self without someone pouncing on the list pointing out the obvious. - kel ======================= I'm replying just to one small point of your post, Kel, and in a tangential matter, somewhat as an aside as regards the main thrust of your post. I'd like to add a comment or two with regard to your statement "The point is, everyone is separate streams of consciousness fully responsible for themselves." I agree with you that namarupic streams (or what are often called sentient beings) are distinguishable, engage in their own kamma, and bear the fruit of their own kamma. I would only like to add, as a "cautionary", that these streams, are not true entities, but are mental constructs dependent on their momentary aspects, and, moreover, they are not truly separate from each other, but are interdependent, reflecting each other and interacting in multiple and complex ways. At least, that is how I see the matter. My point is that it is important not to lose sight of anatta and interdependence as regards "streams". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48046 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes fir... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/22/05 3:32:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, yes, I remember. The non-returner eradicates dosa, but only the arahat eradicates all forms of craving. Craving is so dangerous, because for us worldlings it often is clinging to wrong view. That is far more dangerous than any sensuous clinging. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree with that. --------------------------------------- Nina. ==================== With metta, Howard op 22-07-2005 04:55 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > You know, as I recall, though I don't recall the source, the Buddha > indicated that craving is far, far less of a defilement than hatred, but it is > a > tougher one to get rid of or even moderate. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48047 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:23am Subject: Re: A flash of my self kelvin_lwin Hi Howard, To me they're separate in that there's verifiable and traceable history to each stream. The long-term future is only clear for some with highly developed tendencies. There's no merging or splitting of the streams no matter how accomplished. The interaction is mostly through arammana paccaya. - kel > I would only like to add, as a > "cautionary", that these streams, are not true entities, but are mental > constructs dependent on their momentary aspects, and, moreover, they are not truly > separate from each other, but are interdependent, reflecting each other and > interacting in multiple and complex ways. At least, that is how I see the > matter. My point is that it is important not to lose sight of anatta and > interdependence as regards "streams". 48048 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:45am Subject: Mindfulness robmoult Hi All, In our meeting in Hong Kong, Jon and Sarah raised an intriguing point regarding "formal meditation". I have also discussed this point recently with a Malaysian monk, Bhante Aggacitta. I asked Jon and Sarah, "In the Satipatthana Sutta, does the Buddha not instruct monks to go and sit under a tree and can this not be considered formal meditation?" Jon replied, "No, he did not instruct monks to sit under a tree. Consider carefully the words of the Sutta, 'Having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree...'. This is not an instruction." Sarah then added, "Consider the lifestyle of monks at that time. Many of them spent much of the day meditating under trees. The Buddha was not instructing them to meditate under trees, but he was saying, 'If you are going to meditate, then you should observe your breath...'. Since meditation was a big part of many monks' daily lives, the Buddha was instructing them to practice mindfulness as part of their daily lives." Jon continued, "The Satipatthana Sutta then talks about practicing mindfulness while walking, sitting, standing or lying down. When is one not doing one of these four things? When talking about the four postures, the Buddha is again instructing to have mindfulness in daily life." When I met with Phil, he mentioned that he was really enjoying reading the six sense base Suttas (salayatana-samyutta). This reminded me of one of my favourite Suttas regarding mindfulness, the Kimsuka Sutta (SN XXV.204). To me, there are a couple of interesting points in this Sutta. This Sutta starts with a monk asking four fellow monks the way to purify one's vision and getting four different answers. The first monk advises observing the six media of sense contact. The second monk advises observing the five clinging aggregates. The third monk advises observing the four great elements and the fourth monk advocates "choiceless awareness" (observing whatever arises). The Buddha makes the important point that, according to one's accumulations, one can purify one's vision by different techniques but following the same principle (seeing things as they truly are). Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of DSG), is one approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid approach! The second point of the Sutta is more subtle. Here is how Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates the ending of this Sutta on Access to Insight: "Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." Treating tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana) as a "pair of messengers" shows that they work together. There has been considerable discussion on this forum regarding the necessity of attaining jhanas to become enlightened. At first glance, this Sutta appears to indicate that jhanas and vipassana work together. However, if one looks closely at the Tipitaka, one discovers that the Buddha never equated samatha with jhanas! Though there are many Suttas which describe the stages of jhana, I have not found any Suttas that identify the specific object of meditation to attain jhana; all the listing of meditation objects come from the commentary and later texts such as the Visuddhimagga, not from the Suttas. Perhaps a DSG person can point out any Suttas that I may have overlooked. In the Suttas, samatha is described as tranquility from one- pointedness of the mind and vipassana is seeing clearly the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) in all compounded things. Today, the most popular form of "vipassana meditation" (at least from the teachers that I have met) is the Mahasi Sayadaw method of observing the rising and falling of the breath. Mahasi Sayadaw's teacher, Mingun Sayadaw U Narada, taught choiceless awareness but Mahasi Sayadaw felt that taking a primary object (rising and falling) to calm the mind was a better approach. Mahasi Sayadaw uses concentration on the breath as a primary object to develop tranquility, so in fact the Mahasi Sayadaw method is actually a combination of samatha and vipassana. We should strive to have mindfulness in whatever we do. Choiceless awareness is one technique, but techniques involving primary objects such as sitting under a tree watching the breath are also valid. The purpose of the primary object is to install samatha (tranquility and one-pointedness) as a "partner" / "foundation" to seeing things as they truly are. So, how do we know what technique is right for us? If a technique leads to increased mindfulness, if a technique leads to diminishing of hindrances it is probably suitable for our temperament. So what's my conclusion after all this? I better understand the position of the "choiceless awareness" camp but I also see that the Suttas support the selecting of specific objects (six sense bases, five clinging aggregates, four great elements... and a partridge in a pear tree :-) ). I am sure that this post will generate some comments :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 48049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness nilovg Hi Rob M, thank you for your interesting report. I have to reflect more on what you say about selecting six sense bases, five clinging aggregates, four great elements. Nina. op 22-07-2005 19:45 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > I better understand the > position of the "choiceless awareness" camp but I also see that the > Suttas support the selecting of specific objects (six sense bases, > five clinging aggregates, four great elements... 48050 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:35am Subject: A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti upasaka_howard Hi, all - I have already put forward my disbelief in entities, i.e. in separate, self-existent realities, and I include paramattha dhammas among those phenomena that lack separate, independent status. On the other hand, there are many senses in which phenomena that are not ultimately real do have a "reality" of sorts, and that includes most ordinary pa~n~natti. To point out what I mean, there is something that I would call the "functional reality" of pa~n~natti. Suppose we look out the window and "see" a tree. For reasons that I have outlined before, there is no such entity except as a matter of convention. But that convention is not a groundless one. Our "seeing" of the tree is a kind of experiential predictor. On the basis of "seeing the tree", should we take certain conventional actions of "approaching the tree", "touching the tree", and "carefully examining its bark and leaves", there will arise a series of (expected) paramattha dhammas. In that sense, the "seen tree" had a sort of "reality" to it - a "functional reality". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48051 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes fir... kelvin_lwin Hi Howard, hehe .. actually I'm calling this a Suttana method. - kel > In a message dated 7/21/05 9:58:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kelvin_lwin@y... writes: > I'm a young guy so I think about a female monkey, a woman and a > female deva. Comparing their beauties, I much rather have a female > deva. So I'm working toward obtaining a female deva. Am I practicing > correctly? > ======================== > Yeah, doin' great, Kel! ;-)))) > I'm an old guy, but my chief defilement is also that of sensual craving! > But, hey, at least I know I'm alive! ;-) 48052 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:11pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness kelvin_lwin Hi RobM, > Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of DSG), is one > approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid approach! Taking primary object such as anapanasati better be a valid approach or there wouldn't be Buddhas or Pacceka-Buddhas. I wonder how free from sense of self Siddartha was when he decided to go to a forest and meditate under the Bodhi tree. Still became a Buddha despite such decisions. > listing of meditation objects come from the commentary and later > texts such as the Visuddhimagga, not from the Suttas. Even there, they are only used for samatha portion. I don't think you'll find any limit to the dhammas that can be object of insight. > Mahasi Sayadaw uses > concentration on the breath as a primary object to develop you mean abdomen? > So, how do we know what technique is right for us? If a technique > leads to increased mindfulness, if a technique leads to diminishing > of hindrances it is probably suitable for our temperament. I think it should necessarily lead to more kusala than before. Otherwise there's something wrong. The fear of subtle lobha to good results is often cited as the reason to not have expectations though. It still doesn't change the fact that the path has definite signposts. Reach the good states before worrying about being attached to them :) At the very least, whatever we do have to lead to a good state in the next life so we have a chance to obtain enlightenment there. > Suttas support the selecting of specific objects (six sense bases, I wonder if anyone does "smelling meditation". Asubha doesn't count :) - kel 48053 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - In a message dated 7/22/05 1:24:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: Hi Howard, To me they're separate in that there's verifiable and traceable history to each stream. The long-term future is only clear for some with highly developed tendencies. There's no merging or splitting of the streams no matter how accomplished. The interaction is mostly through arammana paccaya. - kel ========================= They are distinguishable, but not independent. The experiences and actions in one stream are conditioned by experiences and actions in others - so there is an interdependency "on a global level" just as there is an interdependency "locally" within a mindstream. I agree, howeve, that there is no merging or spitting of streams, and I didn't mean to imply there is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48054 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Vism.XIV,174 Vism.XIV,175 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 174. (xlviii) The vile (kucchita) that is done (kata) is villainy (kukata).69 The state of that is 'worry' (kukucca). It has subsequent regret as its characteristic. Its function is to sorrow about what has and what has not been done. It is manifested as remorse. Its proximate cause is what has and what has not been. It should be regarded as slavery. -------------------------- Note 69. Kukata is not in P.T.S. Dict. It is impossible to render into English this 'portmanteau' etymology, e.g., kucchita-kata--kukata, kukutataa ... kukkucca, which depends mostly on a fortuitous parallelism of meaning and verbal forms in the Pali. While useless to strict modern etymologists, it has a definite semantic and mnemonic use. 175. The rest are of the kind already described. So these eighteen formations should be understood to come into association with the first [unprofitable consciousness] rooted in hate (30). (31) And as with the first (30), so with the second (31), the only difference, however, being promptedness and the presence of stiffness and torpor (xliii) among the inconstant. 48055 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Evan, > Hi Herman, > > ---------------------- > Herman wrote: > Isn't there something that binds the stream of khandas together into > this stream and that stream? I think Agrios hit it on the head when he > brought memory into play. Aren't memories very specific to each > individual? > ---------------------- > > Yes, there is something that binds the stream of khandas together. > Conditionality. Yes, but surely we can be a little more specific than that ? To say that conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality doesn't actually say anything. Whether you speak more conventionally or less conventionally, whether you speak in terms of beings or cittas, the actions of a being condition the flavour of a future unfolding of *that* being, the intent of citta conditions the flavour of yet unarisen citta. The perfections of the Buddha do not accrue to *me*, they accrue to *him*, the cessation of *his* stream of citta has no bearing on *me*. He is not here, I am. Kind Regards Herman 48056 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Agrios, > [...] > > > I can't say that thinking is necessary for belief to form. > > > I think experience is necessary and memory of some sort. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, well said. > > Hi Herman, > > you agree? just thinking, > belief in Self blinds us to dhammas as they are. > but what bounds us to perpetual existence is lobha and avija. > We are no better then worms experiencing some irritations, > just more lucky with this vippaka. It will change as well :-) > == Yeah, I agree for sure. It is good to point out that the ending of self-view is only the beginning of the path. Kind Regards Herman 48057 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Howard and Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Kel - > > In a message dated 7/22/05 1:24:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kelvin_lwin@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > To me they're separate in that there's verifiable and traceable > history to each stream. The long-term future is only clear for some > with highly developed tendencies. There's no merging or splitting > of the streams no matter how accomplished. The interaction is > mostly through arammana paccaya. > > - kel > ========================= > They are distinguishable, but not independent. The experiences and actions in one stream are conditioned by experiences and actions in others - so there is an interdependency "on a global level" just as there is an interdependency "locally" within a mindstream. I agree, howeve, that there is no merging or spitting of streams, and I didn't mean to imply there is. == I like to think of a single stream as being tightly coupled, and streams generally as being loosely coupled. (A software development term). The effects of action/intent *will* accrue to the stream they originate from, but they *can* have repercussions elsewhere. Kind Regards Herman 48058 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Yet ANOTHER Address Change, with Apologies mlnease My Email address is once again mlnease@... . Hope you'll make a note of it and keep in touch, eh? mn M. Nease 28650 N. Hwy. 101 P.O. Box 202 Lilliwaup, WA 98555 (360) 877-6077 48059 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self kelvin_lwin Hi Howard and Herman, I agree with your tightly and loosely model, Herman. I still really only see one out of 24 paccayas being valid for stream interactions. Howard, how do you see the interdependence in arupa bhumis? - kel > Howard: in others - so there is an interdependency "on a global level" just > as there is an interdependency "locally" within a mindstream. I > Herman: The effects of action/intent *will* accrue to the stream they > originate from, but they *can* have repercussions elsewhere. 48060 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Herman, ------ Herman wrote: Hi Evan, Yes, but surely we can be a little more specific than that ? To say that conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality doesn't actually say anything. Whether you speak more conventionally or less conventionally, whether you speak in terms of beings or cittas, the actions of a being condition the flavour of a future unfolding of *that* being, the intent of citta conditions the flavour of yet unarisen citta. The perfections of the Buddha do not accrue to *me*, they accrue to *him*, the cessation of *his* stream of citta has no bearing on *me*. He is not here, I am. Kind Regards Herman ------ When this arises, that arises. When this ceases, that ceases. To say that that which arises on condition of this belongs to me or you or the Buddha is to add to the process something additional that doesn't exist. So in return I would rephrase what you have stated as "To say that conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality says all that is needed to be said". For some beings, all they needed to hear was this exposition to enter the stream. Surely therefore that is enough. I think it is fine to use conventional terms such as I, me, you, him, her, etc in everyday language to communicate, however, trying to apply those terms to "abbhidammic" processes is an attempt to add conventional thinking to the reality of the process as it really is. Also, Howard's answer to Kel also answers your comments below and adds to what I have said above so I'll just repeat it here as part of my response. ------ Howard wrote: I'd like to add a comment or two with regard to your statement "The point is, everyone is separate streams of consciousness fully responsible for themselves." I agree with you that namarupic streams (or what are often called sentient beings) are distinguishable, engage in their own kamma, and bear the fruit of their own kamma. I would only like to add, as a "cautionary", that these streams, are not true entities, but are mental constructs dependent on their momentary aspects, and, moreover, they are not truly separate from each other, but are interdependent, reflecting each other and interacting in multiple and complex ways. At least, that is how I see the matter. My point is that it is important not to lose sight of anatta and interdependence as regards "streams". With metta, Howard ------- With Metta, Evan 48061 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti egberdina Hi Howard and Evan, > > I have already put forward my disbelief in entities, i.e. in separate, > self-existent realities, and I include paramattha dhammas among those phenomena > that lack separate, independent status. On the other hand, there are many > senses in which phenomena that are not ultimately real do have a "reality" of > sorts, and that includes most ordinary pa~n~natti. > To point out what I mean, there is something that I would call the > "functional reality" of pa~n~natti. Suppose we look out the window and "see" a tree. > For reasons that I have outlined before, there is no such entity except as a > matter of convention. But that convention is not a groundless one. Our > "seeing" of the tree is a kind of experiential predictor. On the basis of "seeing the > tree", should we take certain conventional actions of "approaching the tree", > "touching the tree", and "carefully examining its bark and leaves", there > will arise a series of (expected) paramattha dhammas. In that sense, the "seen > tree" had a sort of "reality" to it - a "functional reality". > What you say makes a lot of sense. I hope you won't mind if I repeat what you have said and expand on it a bit. The Dhammasangani view, if taken on it's own, leaves one in a world of elemental "things". A sight, a sound, a smell are said to be individual realities that appear and vanish in isolation. Your tree cannot exist in such a world. This is in stark contrast to a "process" view, process being a term that Evan uses, and of which I am very much in favour. And what process is there? The process of *aggregation* of fields of sight, sound, smell, taste, feel in an amazingly complex loop of feedback and recursion so that the product of the process is endlessly fed back on itself. Voila, the worlds of trees ! And thinking about them :-) Kind Regards Herman 48062 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self corvus121 Hi Kel, Evan, Howard and Herman A few random thoughts on all this talk of "self" and "auto". I think it was Socrates who said "if you want to discuss with me, first define your terms". A very sensible approach, to be sure. But I am beginning to doubt the benefit of coming up with a "self" definition that fits with the Dhamma when "no-self" is a characteristic rather than a reality. I think I read in the Anguttara Nikaya (9?) that it is impossible for one with right view to see a self in anything, whereas it is possible for uninstructed worldlings to see a self in things. I think the Buddha also said that it is difficult to find a simile for how fast the mind changes. Do we have any hope of ascertaining if "namarupic streams" interact? Where's the benefit in us trying to push and shove the Dhamma into a definition of something which seems real but isn't i.e. "self"? Isn't the tail [ignorance] wagging the dog [anatta] here? (-: Best wishes Andrew T 48063 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/22/05 8:12:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard and Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Kel - > > In a message dated 7/22/05 1:24:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kelvin_lwin@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > To me they're separate in that there's verifiable and traceable > history to each stream. The long-term future is only clear for some > with highly developed tendencies. There's no merging or splitting > of the streams no matter how accomplished. The interaction is > mostly through arammana paccaya. > > - kel > ========================= > They are distinguishable, but not independent. The experiences and actions in one stream are conditioned by experiences and actions in others - so there is an interdependency "on a global level" just as there is an interdependency "locally" within a mindstream. I agree, howeve, that there is no merging or spitting of streams, and I didn't mean to imply there is. == I like to think of a single stream as being tightly coupled, and streams generally as being loosely coupled. (A software development term). The effects of action/intent *will* accrue to the stream they originate from, but they *can* have repercussions elsewhere. Kind Regards Herman ========================== I understand you, and I agree. I tend to think that the boundaries become more and more porous under varying circumstances, one of which is progress on the path. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48064 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:19pm Subject: to skip nichiconn Hi, Associates, In the prefatory notes discussing the logical method of the Debates (pp. xlviii-li Points of Controversy) the phrase "You, dear sir" rates a footnote: <> Earlier (xlvii), we read: <> So, yeah, that's about all I get from this particular section: it's logical to be nice. Still, I enjoy things like annoying Marisa calling her (my dear) Sir. Or I have to laugh because I think I hear BBodhi in his lectures on MN mention 'loving attention to detail' in the 'child ground' meditations & wonder how long I will associate these words with 'charnel' now. Likewise, leaping from word- to whole movie association, "Sleeping With The Enemy" and the sutta quote in the Vism under Recollection of the Law (Path of Purity p249): << ...As has been said: "Brahmin, one who is lustful, overcome by lust, whose mind is posessed by lust, meditates harm to himself, meditates harm to others, meditates harm to both. He experiences mental pain and grief. When lust is put away he does not meditate harm to himself, does not meditate harm to others, does not meditate harm to both. He does not experience mental pain and grief. Thus, brahmin, is the Law thoroughly seen". {footnote: Or 'seen here-and-now'. Anguttara i,156} >> Thanks for the links, Christine. You've gotta know I appreciate Patrick Kearney's Tipitaka as hypertext thoughts. And of course, am curious as to any particular words BB meant in his introductory remarks when he said something about arranging these talks to give a gradual instruction whereas the MN suttas themselves might seem to follow more of a word linking. Somehow, amidst all this leaping, we're looking for a good foothold. Dispeller << 1190. Herein, this is the simile: just as when a leech is walking, as long as [259] it does not obtain a foothold in front so long it does not release the place gripped by its tail behind; but when it obtains a foothold in front, then, raising its tail, it stands on the place gripped by its mouth; so indeed, only when he brings to mind head-hairs continually and comes to discern head-hairs should he send mindfulness on to the body-hairs. As long as body-hairs do not appear, so long he should bring to mind "head-hairs, head-hairs". But when body-hairs appear, then, leaving aside the headhairs, mindfulness should be set up in the body-hairs. Bringing to mind should be exercised in the same way in regard to nails, etc. >> But it is by a mere figure of speech that I leap and land on a tasty bite or merely flounder. peace, connie 48065 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/22/05 8:54:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Do we have any hope of ascertaining if "namarupic streams" interact? Where's the benefit in us trying to push and shove the Dhamma into a definition of something which seems real but isn't i.e. "self"? ======================= Are not two such streams, "you" and "I", interacting at the moment? Also, when you shake hands with someone, there is a sequence of paramattha dhammas experienced in the stream we call "Andrew", and another, different but related, sequence in the other stream, and this is a kind of mutual reflecting. Unless one's Buddhism comes down to a solipsism, there are multiple mindstreams interacting and mutually reflecting. But each mindstream is an entity by convention only. In fact, there really are no entities, no self-existent, separate and independent "things" at all. I believe that what there really is is inexpressible, ungraspable, and beyond convention and concept. But it can be realized, not by looking somewhere for it, but by following the Buddha's path of training to its very end and transforming the mind that is looking for that which really is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48066 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Kel (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/22/05 9:08:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: Hi Howard and Herman, I agree with your tightly and loosely model, Herman. I still really only see one out of 24 paccayas being valid for stream interactions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Are you so certain that reality is 24, and not 23 or 25? ;-)) -------------------------------------------- Howard, how do you see the interdependence in arupa bhumis? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll let you know when I'm familiar with them! ;-) -------------------------------------------- - kel ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48067 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:44pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,174 Vism.XIV,175 nichiconn The Path of Purity, Pe Maung Tin. << A contemptible act is kukata; the state of [a displeased mind, produced by making] such an act [its object] is worry (kukkucca). It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and omission as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as a state of bondage {1}. The remaining states are of the kinds described. Thus these 17 mental activities should be understood as being united with the First Consciousness rooted in hate, as also with the Second. What is distinctive is the arising by instigation, and the inclusion of sloth-torpor among the inconstant states. 1} See also Expositor 342-343 for the definitions of hate, envy, meanness, and worry}. >> 48068 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Evan, > Hi Herman, > > ------ > Herman wrote: > Hi Evan, > > Yes, but surely we can be a little more specific than that ? To say that > conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality doesn't actually > say anything. > > Whether you speak more conventionally or less conventionally, whether > you speak in terms of beings or cittas, the actions of a being condition > the flavour of a future unfolding of *that* being, the intent of citta > conditions the flavour of yet unarisen citta. > > The perfections of the Buddha do not accrue to *me*, they accrue to > *him*, the cessation of *his* stream of citta has no bearing on *me*. > He is not here, I am. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ------ > > When this arises, that arises. > When this ceases, that ceases. > > To say that that which arises on condition of this belongs to me or you > or the Buddha is to add to the process something additional that doesn't > exist. You may have noticed this was part of what RobertK posted to you: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self'-- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding, takes place in HIM [who thus sees]." (my emphasis). I am not adding anything. === So in return I would rephrase what you have stated as "To say > that conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality says all that > is needed to be said". For some beings, all they needed to hear was this > exposition to enter the stream. Surely therefore that is enough. > > I think it is fine to use conventional terms such as I, me, you, him, > her, etc in everyday language to communicate, however, trying to apply > those terms to "abbhidammic" processes is an attempt to add conventional > thinking to the reality of the process as it really is. == I do not wish to appear argumentative, but surely the Abhidhamma includes the Puggalapannatti, which appears to me to be a description of types of beings. Add to this the Kathavatthu and the Yamaka, and it would seem that "the reality of the process as it really is" is not adequately understandable in terms of the Dhammasangani or Patthana only. I started of this thread by saying that the word "self" has a troubled history on this forum. The red flag that goes up with every mention of "self" is based, IMHO, on a particularly quirky understanding of anatta, which, IMHO, can only be maintained by a selective reading of selected texts, and an out-of-hand denial of the realities of daily life. Kind Regards Herman 48069 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: In fact, there > really are no entities, no self-existent, separate and independent "things" at > all. I believe that what there really is is inexpressible, ungraspable, and > beyond convention and concept. But it can be realized, not by looking somewhere for > it, but by following the Buddha's path of training to its very end and > transforming the mind that is looking for that which really is. Hi Howard Regarding your last comment here, what does the Buddha's path of training tell us to do about this "self" thing? A. take a look and see if we can find something (only to discover that it isn't there)? B. work out our own definition of "self" that accords with the path as we understand it? C. something else? I think the problem with B is that we are very very likely to use our definition to reinforce our present reasoning patterns eg. there *is* a self (of sorts, see special definition in footnotes) and "it" can do 'this and that' to attain liberation. No-self is a characteristic of realities that can be directly known and, as I believe you have correctly stated in the past, direct knowing is indescribable. Perhaps that's why the Buddha opted for A ["I can't find/experience any self"]over B ["Self exists but only in the following sense ...]? As I see it, A is more likely to knock the dust out of one's eyes. B is only going to rub the dust in further and make it harder to get out. I hope this makes sense. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 48070 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:55pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > I started of this thread by saying that the word "self" has a > troubled history on this forum. The red flag that goes up with every > mention of "self" is based, IMHO, on a particularly quirky > understanding of anatta, which, IMHO, can only be maintained by a > selective reading of selected texts, and an out-of-hand denial of > the realities of daily life. Hi Herman I've been tuning into this thread. I think the above paragraph is getting to the crux of the matter but I'm not sure I'm comprehending you fully yet. In a nutshell, what is the understanding of anatta that conforms with or affirms (as opposed to "denies") the realities of daily life? It would also help if you would nominate a text that you contend illustrates this. Thanks for your patience. Best wishes Andrew T 48071 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Kel, Evan, Howard and Herman > > A few random thoughts on all this talk of "self" and "auto". I think > it was Socrates who said "if you want to discuss with me, first > define your terms". A very sensible approach, to be sure. But I am > beginning to doubt the benefit of coming up with a "self" definition > that fits with the Dhamma when "no-self" is a characteristic rather > than a reality. > Speaking for myself only, I do not need to come up with a definition of self, I already have one, and have had it for more than 40 years :-) I know what I mean when I refer to myself. It is the things that I remember about me. I will be careful to again point out that there is no suggestion that Herman created that definition of himself out of nothing, or that Herman controls what is remembered at any time. But Herman, at this time, distinguishes between himself, and others, what he remembers as having hapened to himself, and what he remembers as not having happened to himself. > I think I read in the Anguttara Nikaya (9?) that it is impossible for > one with right view to see a self in anything, whereas it is possible > for uninstructed worldlings to see a self in things. I think the > Buddha also said that it is difficult to find a simile for how fast > the mind changes. > > Do we have any hope of ascertaining if "namarupic streams" interact? > Where's the benefit in us trying to push and shove the Dhamma into a > definition of something which seems real but isn't i.e. "self"? > > Isn't the tail [ignorance] wagging the dog [anatta] here? (-: > I have as yet not seen the benefit of reminding myself that I don't exist, or that I don't have memories to that effect :-). Reminding myself of something I don't know is like putting post-it stickers with gobbledygook on them all round the house. Memory and insight are not the same. If people suggest a model to me, a way of thinking, and that model will not allow me to describe the realities of my autobiographical memory other than by saying that they are totally illusory and unfounded, then I do not think it is outlandish to have a bit of a critical look at that model. Kind Regards Herman 48072 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:19pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I started of this thread by saying that the word "self" has a > troubled history on this forum. The red flag that goes up with every > mention of "self" is based, IMHO, on a particularly quirky > understanding of anatta, which, IMHO, can only be maintained by a > selective reading of selected texts, and an out-of-hand denial of > the realities of daily life. > Dear Herman , The Buddha (Tathaagata)said Samyutta Nikaya XXII.85 "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found" Yamaka Sutta (translation by Venerable Dhammanando). How do you interpret these words? RobertK 48073 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:29pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness nichiconn Hi, RobM :), Was looking at http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130037 Woodward's "Manual of a Mystic" (Yogavachara) the practice of samadhi and the jhanas. << This book is not part of the Pali Canon, though there is some correspondence between the methods described here and those found in Visuddhimagga and other parts of the Pali Canon, with, as the editor, Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids, admits, "certain discrepancies." >> What other parts? Didn't you just ask that? Curious, I am, about Mrs. Thomas and certain discrepancies, too. Another minor curiousity: pavana - the wind, a big forest. :) There is something Jon mentions in a talk: satipatthana pavana gamani patipada ... the way leading to the development of satipatthana, the 8fnp; depending on translator and commentarial understanding? And just to not pass up a chance to throw out another quote: Dispeller 2045. As regards NA KI~NCI IRIYAAPATHA.M KAPPETI <321.17> ("he does not choose any posture"), the method is the same. For he does not choose any posture among those beginning with walking with the consciousness belonging to the five doors. peace, connie 48074 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:30pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Andrew, Thanks for thinking I'm patient :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > I started of this thread by saying that the word "self" has a > > troubled history on this forum. The red flag that goes up with > every > > mention of "self" is based, IMHO, on a particularly quirky > > understanding of anatta, which, IMHO, can only be maintained by a > > selective reading of selected texts, and an out-of-hand denial of > > the realities of daily life. > > Hi Herman > > I've been tuning into this thread. I think the above paragraph is > getting to the crux of the matter but I'm not sure I'm comprehending > you fully yet. > > In a nutshell, what is the understanding of anatta that conforms with > or affirms (as opposed to "denies") the realities of daily life? It > would also help if you would nominate a text that you contend > illustrates this. I recently quoted this from "the lesser discourse on emptiness" Whatever has been constructed or thought out is subject to change and coming to an end. Knowing and seeing this, his heart is free from the grip of sense pleasures, his heart is freed from the grip of living, his mind is free from the grip of blindness. In Freedom comes the knowledge of Freedom, and he knows: "Left Behind is Rebirth, Lived is the Best of Lives, Done is Duty's Doing, Crossed over Am I; No More It'n and At'n for Me!" He understands: "This way there is no disturbance emanating from the grip of sense pleasures. This way there is no disturbance emanating from the grip of living. This way there is no disturbance emanating from the grip of blindness." Thus: "This way is empty of the disturbance emanating from the grip of sense pleasures. This way is empty of the disturbance emanating from the grip of living. This way is empty of the disturbance emanating from the grip of blindness. THIS WAY THERE IS ONLY THIS THAT DISTURBS THE EMPTINESS, THAT IS THE SIX SENSE-REALMS BOUND TO THIS BODY REACTING TO LIFE." The realisation of anatta notwithstanding, life goes on. There's still going to be water to be fetched, and wood to be chopped. You may still be gored to death by a cow, or choose to end it all instead. Kind Regards Herman > > Thanks for your patience. Best wishes > > Andrew T 48075 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:49pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi RobertK, Thank you for the question. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > started of this thread by saying that the word "self" has a > > troubled history on this forum. The red flag that goes up with every > > mention of "self" is based, IMHO, on a particularly quirky > > understanding of anatta, which, IMHO, can only be maintained by a > > selective reading of selected texts, and an out-of-hand denial of > > the realities of daily life. > > > Dear Herman , > The Buddha (Tathaagata)said > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.85 > "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found" > Yamaka Sutta (translation by Venerable Dhammanando). > How do you interpret these words? From the same sutta: "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, my friend." The self that is being rejected in the Suttas is a self that is not inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. Such a self is indeed not to be found. The self "Herman" is inconstant, stressful and subject to change. He is here right now, writing this you :-) Kind Regards Herman 48076 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... ------------- Herman wrote: Hi RobertK, Thank you for the question. From the same sutta: "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, my friend." The self that is being rejected in the Suttas is a self that is not inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. Such a self is indeed not to be found. The self "Herman" is inconstant, stressful and subject to change. He is here right now, writing this you :-) Kind Regards Herman -------------- Hi Herman. Now I am with you! OK, I think we need to get definitions right here. Yes, there is an impermanent, suffering "self" subject to constant change - that is in fact not the same from one moment to the next. However, how does one pin down such a self? If it is ever changing, as soon as I say there is that self it has already changed and is no more. The self dispelled by anatta is a permanent never-changing "core" that we I assume would both agree does not exist. So, as so often happens in these sorts of discussions, we disgree not because we have different understandings of the subject but because our definitions have not been well defined and understood by all parties. I hope I'm there with understanding where we are both coming from otherwise I am just going to get more confused. With Metta, Evan 48077 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: A flash of my self corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > I recently quoted this from "the lesser discourse on emptiness" > > Whatever has been constructed or thought out is subject to change and > coming to an end. Knowing and seeing this, his heart is free from the > grip of sense pleasures, his heart is freed from the grip of living, > his mind is free from the grip of blindness. In Freedom comes the > knowledge of Freedom, and he knows: "Left Behind is Rebirth, Lived is > the Best of Lives, Done is Duty's Doing, Crossed over Am I; No More > It'n and At'n for Me!" > > He understands: "This way there is no disturbance emanating from the > grip of sense pleasures. This way there is no disturbance emanating > from the grip of living. This way there is no disturbance emanating > from the grip of blindness." Thus: "This way is empty of the > disturbance emanating from the grip of sense pleasures. This way is > empty of the disturbance emanating from the grip of living. This way > is empty of the disturbance emanating from the grip of blindness. THIS > WAY THERE IS ONLY THIS THAT DISTURBS THE EMPTINESS, THAT IS THE SIX > SENSE-REALMS BOUND TO THIS BODY REACTING TO LIFE." > > The realisation of anatta notwithstanding, life goes on. There's still > going to be water to be fetched, and wood to be chopped. You may still > be gored to death by a cow, or choose to end it all instead. Hi Herman Thanks for your prompt reply. You have given lots of food for thought. I'll get back to you later if I think I have something useful to add. Sorry for accusing you of patience! There was really no basis for the accusation at all. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 48078 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 0:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Evan and RobertK, > Herman wrote: > > Hi RobertK, > > Thank you for the question. > > > > From the same sutta: > > "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to > change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" > > "No, my friend." > > The self that is being rejected in the Suttas is a self that is not > inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. Such a self is indeed > not to be found. > > The self "Herman" is inconstant, stressful and subject to change. He is > here right now, writing this you :-) > > > Kind Regards > > Herman > -------------- > > Hi Herman. > > Now I am with you! OK, I think we need to get definitions right here. > Yes, there is an impermanent, suffering "self" subject to constant > change - that is in fact not the same from one moment to the next. > However, how does one pin down such a self? If it is ever changing, as > soon as I say there is that self it has already changed and is no more. > The self dispelled by anatta is a permanent never-changing "core" that > we I assume would both agree does not exist. Exactly right!! > > So, as so often happens in these sorts of discussions, we disgree not > because we have different understandings of the subject but because our > definitions have not been well defined and understood by all parties. > > I hope I'm there with understanding where we are both coming from > otherwise I am just going to get more confused. > I think we're on the same wavelength. Kind Regards Herman 48079 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 0:21am Subject: What is Right Action ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this essential Right Action ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. But what is Right Action ? The 3-fold Definition of Right Action: Avoiding all Killing and Injuring of any living Being... Abstaining from Taking & Stealing what is not Given... Stopping all Misuse of any Sensual Pleasure... That is Right Action! The Characterization of Right Action: Friends, it is caused by behaviour in conflict with the Dhamma, by reason of immoral behaviour, that some beings here, right at the breakup of the body, after death, reappear lost in states of pain, in unhappy destinations, in the downfall, even in the hells... It is caused by behaviour in harmony with the Dhamma, by reason of moral behaviour, that some beings here, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly worlds!!! And which, friends, are the 3 kinds of bodily moral behaviour in harmony with the Dhamma? Here someone, stop any killing of living beings, abstains from injuring living beings; with rod and weapon laid aside, gentle and kind, such one dwells sympathetic towards all living beings. Avoiding the taking of what is not given, such one refrains from stealing, what is not given; such one does not take by way of theft the wealth and property of others, neither in the village nor in the forest. Abandoning abuse in sensual pleasures, such one gives up misuse in sensual pleasures; such one does not have intercourse with partners, who are protected by their mother, or father, or mother and father, or brother, or sister, or relatives, who is married, who are protected by law, or who are engaged to other side. That is how there are three kinds of bodily moral behaviour in harmony with the Dhamma... Such is Right Action! The Explanation of Right Action: Primary of these is the ending of intentional killing or destroying of beings either by physical action or by verbal incitement, ranging from killing eggs of lice and bugs, or causing abortion, to any slaughter of living creatures, including human beings. Restraint from taking, what is not given, means abstaining from taking, with intention to steal, living beings or non-living articles, which have an owner, removing or appropriating them, without the owner's consent, either by physical effort or by inciting another to do so. Restraint from wrong behaviour in sensual pleasures means abstention from any kind of sex, which will cause pain and suffering to others. Examples will be adultery, since this causes the disruption of marriage, rape, intercourse with minors protected by parents, & perversion of others. Included here also are abstention from use of booze, drugs and any kinds of intoxicants, which causes carelessness, and gambling with cards, dices, on horses, teams etc. Knowing right & wrong Action as right & wrong Action, is Right View. Awareness of presence of right & wrong Action, is Right Awareness. Exchanging wrong Action with right Action, is Right Effort... Further study of Buddhist Right Action (Samma-Kammanta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-kammanto.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 48080 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self christine_fo... Hello Evan, Herman, RobK, Andrew, all, So ... are you all saying that there is no permanent unchanging core ... but that there are ongoing everchanging individually silo-ed processes? metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Evan and RobertK, > > > Herman wrote: > > > > Hi RobertK, > > > > Thank you for the question. > > > > > > > > From the same sutta: > > > > "And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to > > change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" > > > > "No, my friend." > > > > The self that is being rejected in the Suttas is a self that is not > > inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. Such a self is indeed > > not to be found. > > > > The self "Herman" is inconstant, stressful and subject to change. He is > > here right now, writing this you :-) > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > -------------- > > > > Hi Herman. > > > > Now I am with you! OK, I think we need to get definitions right here. > > Yes, there is an impermanent, suffering "self" subject to constant > > change - that is in fact not the same from one moment to the next. > > However, how does one pin down such a self? If it is ever changing, as > > soon as I say there is that self it has already changed and is no more. > > The self dispelled by anatta is a permanent never- changing "core" that > > we I assume would both agree does not exist. > > Exactly right!! > > > > > So, as so often happens in these sorts of discussions, we disgree not > > because we have different understandings of the subject but because our > > definitions have not been well defined and understood by all parties. > > > > I hope I'm there with understanding where we are both coming from > > otherwise I am just going to get more confused. > > > > I think we're on the same wavelength. > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman 48081 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Christine, Yes I guess I am but I would stop at saying that the stream of everchanging aggregates is a self. I can call it myself, me, I, etc in everyday useage but I accept, on an intellectual level in any case, that to call something a self it would have to be a constant permanent "something" (core, soul, etc). But a quick answer to your question is yes. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christine Forsyth Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2005 6:21 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hello Evan, Herman, RobK, Andrew, all, So ... are you all saying that there is no permanent unchanging core ... but that there are ongoing everchanging individually silo-ed processes? metta, Chris 48082 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: [Dharma-Direct] balancing_life Hi Evans & EveryOne, Basically, Angulimala was a very good man in the first place,and because his peers at his school were jealous of him, they somehow "back-stabbed" him, in the way that made his teacher so angry,that he made Anguilimala promise to cut of 1000 fingers to show his obeyance/loyalty to him. (hmmmm, sounds a lot, like perhaps this is what happened to my niece) And since Anguilimala has a good character, of total dedication to his teacher, he promised to do that, to please his teacher, & so once promised, he just had to do it. Lord Buddha, on the other hand, who could forsee & knew the reason, why he wanted those 1.000 fingers, decided to help him out of his misery and luckily Anguilimilla had Lord Buddha, in the vincinity & Era ,to help him or else the next victim would have been his own mother, according to one of the buddhism books, that i have read. Unluckily, for me, i have to live with the circumstances that have been handed to me, perhaps due to my bad karma in my past existence, and unfortunately, i just can't join any monastery to become a buddhist nun, as i am English educated, whereas all Chinese temples, here chant in Mandarin which i do not know/understand/speak nor know how to read & write also. And i can't join the Mahindarama temple as i am not a man, so i can't be a monk...anyway, they chant in Pali, which is neither my language also. (BTW, in one of the buddhism books that i have read, it said that it is a blessing to be born a man, in Buddhism and a curse to be born a woman, or something to this effect.) Also, i am not endowed with "brains" as i am just a simple-minded person, whereas members here and in the many buddhism yahoogroups that i am in are already in the advanced stage...lol...my mind is like a gold-fish (a trivia i read somewhere) that has a memory-span of about 3 minutes...hahhaha...so, i can't even grasp the basics of buddhism as yet, eventhough i have been going to temples and joined all these groups, for the past 2 years or more. Sighhhhhhhhh! With Metta & Thanks for your advice, Evans, :{ AliceInJustBeingLogical&SensibleLand -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Well, first of all, to become a Buddha takes many lifetimes (incalculable periods etc - it is defined in one of the suttas but I don't remember which). So don't be disappointed with how long it takes. That means you are grasping at a goal. I must admit to having felt like that also when I first realised I was a Buddhist but when I relaxed about achieving "attainments", I no longer felt like that. Also, look at the story of Angulimala - he killed 999 people before he entered the order and gained enlightenment in the same lifetime. Just enjoy, practice the best you can and make the most of the situation you are in. With Metta, Evan 48083 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/23/05 12:44:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Hi Howard Regarding your last comment here, what does the Buddha's path of training tell us to do about this "self" thing? A. take a look and see if we can find something (only to discover that it isn't there)? B. work out our own definition of "self" that accords with the path as we understand it? C. something else? I think the problem with B is that we are very very likely to use our definition to reinforce our present reasoning patterns eg. there *is* a self (of sorts, see special definition in footnotes) and "it" can do 'this and that' to attain liberation. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Working out a definition of "self" isn't a liberation technique. This is just a simple matter of understanding what we're talking about. One can't carry out A unless one has an idea of what that "something" we're loking for *is*. In a desert, one can't lok for water if we don't know what it is - we don't want to try to drink sand! This business is just the ordinarty business of understanding what a word is supposed to mean. At the time of the Buddha, 'atta' had a well defined meaning. Nowadays 'self' happens to be a bit more vague. And, yes, I do think that A is part of the Buddha's path of training (the Tibetans, BTW, think it's a major part), but it is just a part. ---------------------------------------- No-self is a characteristic of realities that can be directly known and, as I believe you have correctly stated in the past, direct knowing is indescribable. -------------------------------------- Howard: But in reading the Tipitaka, it does help to know what the word 'anatta' is supposed to mean, just as it helps to know what 'tanha' is supposed to mean. ------------------------------------- Perhaps that's why the Buddha opted for A ["I can't find/experience any self"]over B ["Self exists but only in the following sense ...]? ------------------------------------------ Howard: He certainly DID teach A. I have no disagreement with that. And people knew what he meant by it. ----------------------------------------- As I see it, A is more likely to knock the dust out of one's eyes. B is only going to rub the dust in further and make it harder to get out. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ordinary understanding of what the Buddha meant by 'atta', which is the something that nothing was found to be is required. It is pointless to go out on a search for mpjhy! One would never know whther it's been found or not! ---------------------------------------- I hope this makes sense. (-: ---------------------------------------- Howard: And I hope you follow me as well. :-) ---------------------------------------- Best wishes Andrew T ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48084 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: Meeting Phil philofillet Hello Nina, Rob M and all > thanks for your reports. I would be good to hear more details. Especially > Rob's views on awareness now. And Phil: we should not regret to have only a > little time for study, but I think you do not regret it. We can apply what > we learn and can see Abhidhamma, or the Dhamma in all things. That is the > marvellous thing of his teachings. So many opportunities to learn. Yes, that's right. I like the sutta in which the Buddha says that for the sake of devloping understand we are fortunate not to be born in hell, where all is unpleasant, nor in deva realms, where all is pleasant. It is in the human realm with its mix of pleasant and unpleasant that we can develop understanding. How grateful we should be to have this human existence. This is something Rob expressed with great flair. Let me report a bit more on what we talked about. I wasn't takiing notes, but a lot stuck in my head. Rob, if I mis-paraphrase you, please correct me While saying he had come closer to understanding why the DSG founders say what they do about meditation, he questioned their concern re catching self at work. He said that we haven't chosen renunciation/haven't ordained, are nowhere being sotapanna, so it is not necessary to worrry so much about such a refined point. He used the analogy of a hobby swimmer deciding to shave off his hair to gain a fraction of a second in his lap time despite being 20 kgs overweight, out of shape. I can see what he means, but I am still feeling keen on being aware of self at work in anything we do related to Dhamma. In this context, I mentionned my appreciation of an intellectual understanding related to anatta, how I feel that even an intellectual understanding has been liberating for me. He asked me in what way. I wasn't able to answer very well. I said something about not getting as upset by people as before, having less expecations re people due to an awareness that people are in fact conditioned nama and rupa. I didn't say it, but I am still aware that it is odd to feel liberated by such a thing when my understanding is as shallow, my panna as weak as it is. I am finding liberation or believing in liberation where there isn't any, really. But for whatever reason, I find it liberating to some degree to read in suttas what the Buddha taught on khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and reflect in my shallow way on the way he laid out what we take for people and things to be nothing but elemental components. I think I pointed out that it is the teaching of anatta and only the teaching of anatta that makes the Buddha unique compared to other spiritual teachers. But I can see what Rob means. He has a great sense of being relaxed about Dhamma and clearly doesn't push for results in a greedy way. "Je me sense bien dans ma peau" he said about Dhamma, I think, using this Quebecois saying that means "I feel good in my skin," literaly, at ease. We talked about Brahma- Viharas and I said that I still disagree with something he posted about intentionally giving metta to the toolbooth operators he sees on the way to work. I told him about how I used to designate sources of dosa, and meditate on them in the morning, but now I don't and have feel more free from irritation knowing that in the above mentionned shallow understanding of anattta, paramattha dhammas, than I did by doing metta meditation. I wondered how one can generate metta out of the blue like that. He said that there *are* moments of metta during meditation, and their impact is real, even if it is not all real. Is that clear? So, this is to say that even if there is some lobha involved in the metta meditation, there can still be moments of metta arising. I can see that. I would still prefer to take my metta where I come across it in daily life, but I continue to think that perhaps thinking about metta can condition metta. Acharn Sujin says "metta is conditioned by understading" meaning that metta cannot arise from an activity rooted in lobha or moha but when you meet and talk to Rob M it is hard not to feel that whatever he does he has access to lots of metta. But I will not be doing metta meditation or any intentional activities or tactics to deal with dosa. We can learn from our dosa. We can't begin to eradicate it without understanding it. Speaking of Brahma-Viharas, Rob M mentionned how grateful he is for how well things have gone for him in life and I felt a lot of mudita instead of the envy or judgement I sometimes feel when talking with people who are successful in the mundane sense. He spoke of duty, of wanting to give back some of what he has received. He spoke of duty when it comes to meditation as well. He thinks of bhavana as a duty and this helps him from clinging to results, which I had said is the reason I doubt the value of meditation for myself now, and wonder how many Westerners can practice without clinging to results due to cultural conditioning which drives us, in my opinion, to do so. I really felt that this is a man who is not after something. Dhamma really comes natural to him, he is a born Buddhist rather than someone who has come across it in mid-life and is maybe seeking to enrich this one lifetime through it the way I am. (He told me an interesting anecdote from his teen years that shows that he was born with an innate orientation towards Dhamma.) We talked about caritas - I think that's the word he used. I had mentionned reading in my favourite book "Roots of Good and Evil" about how according to a commentary some people are born with different preponderances in the six roots - for example, some people might have strong dosa and lobha but also amoha, or adosa but with lobha and moha preponderant. He told me some reason why this didn't make sense when it came to hetus which i forget now but then told me about these caritas, inherited personality types, I think, which sounded similar. I have come more and more clearly to see that I am deeply rooted in lobha (addictive tendencies) so anything I do related to Dhamma is drenched in lobha. This is why I will not be meditating or doing anything intentional to seek results. Abhidhamma and Acharn Sujin are very good for me. Patience. I told Rob about the anecdote Larry told, about how when he was a kid taking a bath he would kind of examine the phenomenon of the water, contemplating its make up or something. We can see that still at work, that investigativeness. It could have to do with this carita or inherited tendencies or something. What I remember from the bath is making a fleet of ships out of shampoo bottle caps and then sinking them all with fist bombs. So nothing has changed. These days I have moments of wanting noisy motorcycles and their riders to explode. Roots of lobha, of dosa. And you know, it doesn't bother me, because I am coming closer to develop understanding, and understanding is the only thing of true value. A few moments of understanding in this life might propel my on a more wholeseome track through samsara, who knows? Hmmm. Oh yes, there is my homework. We were talking about sati and Rob mentionned the sutta about the man walking with a pot of boiling oil on his head, and an executioner's axe at his neck that will fall if he spills a drop of oil, and there are dancing girls, and Rob told me that the sati that is being taught in this sutta is *not* making sure not to spill the oil. I told him not to tell me what the sati is here, because I'd like to think about it until I see him next time. Oh, I told him how I am not comfortable with the word "realities" and prefer to say "paramattha dhammas" or "Dhamma realities" or something else. It seems to me that "realities" sets people off on the wrong track, seeing to explain the world like scientists, which was not the Buddha's intention. The point of the teaching of paramattha dhammas is not to explain the world, but to lay out a teaching that, to the degree we come to understand it, may lead to our liberation. I told him that it seems to me that many people approach Dhamma in a scientific or overly rational way, refusing to believe anything until they have been able to experience it first hand. I thought this kind of thinking could be partially blamed on a misinterpretation of the Kalama sutta and its famous "rely on yourself" and he agreed that it is an oft misunderstood sutta. I will study it some more. I said that I think Dhamma is "a sublime fabrication" though I don't know if I will continue seeing it that way, a sublime fabrication enlightened by the Buddha for the sake of out liberation. Rob thought that this sounded fair, and referred to the raft that we abandon when we are to the far shore. There was more, I'm sure. The gist is that I really enjoyed talking with a man who has Buddhism written all over him and is relaxed about some of the fine points. Not a perfectionist, certainly. Very living Dhamma. No sense of forcing things, of being too serious about it. Flexibility. Oh, we also talked about the point I always have trouble understanding - how defilements or kusala can be accumulated if the citta falls away comletely. He agrees this is difficult to understand. Well, no, he says it's not true, this doesn't happen. He speaks instead of natural decisive support condition. I am in no hurry to figure this out. Now I find it helpful to simply accept that kusala and akusala are accumulated without thinking too much about how. Some day I will understand why this is or isn't true, but until then trying to figure it out is futile. I didn't ask him what I had intended to ask him about ndsc, but that's ok. I'll be seeing him again. Rob, I hope I haven't misinterpreted you at all here. Sorry for any typos. Metta, Phil Sorry also Herman and Howard. I will have to drop a couple of posts I owe you. It looks like my posting time will be cut dramatically. 48085 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:51 am Subject: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cittas alone? agriosinski In sequence of D.O. we have avija - sankhara - vinnana. But the way I understand sankharas they are 50 cetasikas: 11 annasamana, 25 sobhana and 14 akusala. So these are almost all cetasikas, excluding sanna and vedana. Do they arise alone here? Without citta? I understand sanna and vedana do not arise in this point as sankharas, but they will arise later. When axactly they will arise and how many times in one D.O sequence? metta, Agrios 48086 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:57am Subject: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > In sequence of D.O. we have avija - sankhara - vinnana. > But the way I understand sankharas they are 50 cetasikas: > 11 annasamana, 25 sobhana and 14 akusala. > So these are almost all cetasikas, excluding sanna and vedana. > Do they arise alone here? Without citta? > > I understand sanna and vedana do not arise in this point as > sankharas, but they will arise later. When exactly they will > arise and how many times in one D.O sequence? > > metta, > Agrios I should at least read what I wrote before hitting send :) Agrios 48087 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Right View ... ??? dacostacharles To all, This is almost perfect, what is missing is the characteristics of existence, and by saying the 4 noble truths you include the 8 fold path (the 4th truth). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: 1.6A ; 1.5A Sent: Tuesday, 19 July, 2005 06:42 Subject: [dsg] What is Right View ... ??? Friends: What is this crucial Right View ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration But what is Right View ? Right View Ownership of Kamma: All beings are owners of their kamma, inherit their kamma, are born of their kamma, are created by their kamma, are linked to their kamma and any intentional action (=kamma) they do, whether good or bad, the effects of that, will be theirs, following them like a shadow, that never leaves... This is Right View! Right View of the Ten Phenomena: Giving alms has good effects, any self-sacrifice results in pleasure, small gifts are also beneficial.. There is resulting fruition thus of any good and bad behaviour!! There is moral efficacy of any relation to mother and father.. There is this world and there are other worlds!! There are beings who are spontaneously and instantaneously born.. There exist good & pure recluses & priests in this world, who having followed the right method of practice, themselves by their own supra-human abilities, have directly experienced the other worlds, and who explain them and thereby make them known here... This is Right View! Right View of the Four Noble Truths: Right view of such is Suffering... Right view of such is the Cause of Suffering... Right view of such is the End of Suffering... Right view of such is the Way to End Suffering... This is Right View! Any hypotheses that deny these, are wrong views... <...> 48088 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 dacostacharles Hi all I am assuming Herman said, " But I do think we are the possessors of our kamma, we are the possessors of all that we have have learnt. Not only do these belong to us, they are us, and shape who we will be tomorrow. And we cannot give this away, no matter how much we would like to. .................................................. Nina said to Herman, "Agreed, the context of kamma that produces result is different. In a way we possess kamma, but in the ultimate sense there is nobody who possesses kamma. There are only conditioned phenomena arising and falling away. This can help us when we are unhappy and think: why does this happen to me, or why do I have to receive result of a deed done in a former life. Many such questions can come up. We cannot trace which kamma produces result, but is it not enough to know that an unpleasant experience through the senses is conditioned already? That nobody in the world can change it? Not even a Buddha could change the law of cause and result." ================== Personally, I understand the points of view, sometimes. However, the following view has been of no help to me: "In the ultimate sense there is nobody who possesses kamma. There are only conditioned phenomena arising and falling away. We cannot trace which kamma produces result." I have tried to use it but it always ends up failing. I think because the stress of negative karma remains on a subconscious/unclear level -- especially if you are a caring person. For me, it is better to reflect on the characteristics of existence -- I have been born so I am destine to suffer unpleasant experiences. This is just how life is. -- And, with wisdom and luck, suffering due to many unpleasant experiences will be avoided. Also the view that "I must receive the results of a deed done in a former life (incarnation -previous birth from a woman's ... )" does not help me either. However, if you view the incarnation as the re-occurrence of an event, trend of thought, or feelings (e.g., memories) then this view does help me because often I can trace which kamma produces which results, and thus deal appropriately with the kamma to avoid more negative karma. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 22 July, 2005 11:13 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 Hi Herman, Agreed, the context of kamma that produces result is different. In a way we possess kamma, but in the ultimate sense there is nobody who possesses kamma. There are only conditioned phenomena arising and falling away. <....> 48089 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant dacostacharles Hi all, Sometimes a person is viewed as an Arhat. When it is found that the person still has defilements ... sometimes this also changes peoples' views about arhats. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 21 July, 2005 17:06 Subject: [dsg] Re: Tathaagato Araham The Buddha As The First Arahant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Christine, Robert K, Mike Nease and all How are you? Another way of determining if an Arahant still had defilements as Mahasanghikas, the ancient ancestors of Mahayanists, and Mahayanists claimed, is to read the Buddha's own statements about the status of an Arahant. <....> 48090 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" dacostacharles Hi all, I have to say this: I believe, "the view that the self is permanently non-existent is not part of the Buddha's teaching, it contradicts the middle way." However, during meditation or interacting with others, a goal is to dwell beyond the self, or produce actions that are not driven by the self, self-interest that is. The goal of this ...self is to experience things like the sublime states when appropriate. The no-, non-, not-, etc., -self is a state/level. Not a permanent reality. CharlesD PS: I would add to the post below -- I am also what others .... I am the OM ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 21 July, 2005 15:05 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" Hi Herman {Sarah and others} - I am sorry to be the first to respond to your invitation to join. H: > > I am what I see, I see what I am. > I am what I hear, I hear what I am. > I am what I feel, I feel what I am. > I am what I taste, I taste what I am. > I am what I smell, I smell what I am. > I am what I think, I think what I am. > > Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? > Tep: It sounds like 'This is I, this is my self'. Don't you think so? H: > But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe > the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a > functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just > Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word > "self", I'll use auto. > Tep: That is a clever description, Herman. You have now become an authority on self. <...> 48091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Pe Maung Tin: Vism.XIV,174 Vism.XIV,175 nilovg Hi Connie and Larry, It is good to see another translation of Visuddhimagga. I hope you post these more often. Like this: making] such an act [its object] is worry (kukkucca)> I found the note in our text not so clear. And P.T.S. does have something about ku+kata. Ku means where, when and in compounds: nothing of, bad, wrong, little. kukkucca: doing wrong, troubling about little, worry. Pe Maung Tin counts 17 cetasikas, whereas our text eighteen. I have to do some counting! Nina. op 23-07-2005 03:44 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > The Path of Purity, Pe Maung Tin. > << > A contemptible act is kukata; the state of [a displeased mind, produced by > making] such an act [its object] is worry (kukkucca). It has repentance as > characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and omission as function, > regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and omission as proximate > cause; and it should be regarded as a state of bondage {1}. > The remaining states are of the kinds described. Thus these 17 mental > activities should be understood as being united with the First > Consciousness rooted in hate, as also with the Second. What is > distinctive is the arising by instigation, and the inclusion of > sloth-torpor among the inconstant states. > 48092 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... kenhowardau Hi Herman and Howard, ------------------- Herman (to Sarah): > > Would you recommend ceasing studying of the texts, given the dangers of being deluded as to why the study is taking place? ........................ Howard: > Well, here is the point, of course, and it is a good one, I think. ------------------- On the contrary, I think Herman has missed the point. Sarah has not advocated Dhamma study as a technique - or something to do in order to gain enlightenment. Therefore, she is unlikely to have advocated "not studying" as a technique for "avoiding delusion." The middle way is to understand that Dhamma study is a condition (or a factor) for enlightenment. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: > During the lengthy (quite conventional BTW) period of (quite conventional ;-) study of texts, there are, as during virtually all conventional actions of nonarahants, INCLUDING THAT OF MEDITATION!! (my emphasis), many, many, many moments of defiled mentality - most moments probably, defiled by sense of self and by craving, attachment, and confusion (as to motives and other things). -------------------------------------------------- Yes, and those are dhammas that can be understood. ------------------- Howard: > But a useful conventional action is exactly that, -------------------- A conventional action is not a dhamma and so it has no inherent characteristics. Conventionally, it might be understood as useful or useless, but that is not the Buddha's teaching. ----------------------------------- Howard: > and the fact that one's mind is imperfect should not be dragged in to serve as an attempted justification for not doing what is helpful. ----------------------------------- As I said at the beginning, if you think that is what Sarah meant, then you have missed the point. Ken H 48093 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:34am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? robmoult Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" ...> wrote: > > In sequence of D.O. we have avija - sankhara - vinnana. > > But the way I understand sankharas they are 50 cetasikas: > > 11 annasamana, 25 sobhana and 14 akusala. > > So these are almost all cetasikas, excluding sanna and vedana. > > Do they arise alone here? Without citta? > > > > I understand sanna and vedana do not arise in this point as > > sankharas, but they will arise later. When exactly they will > > arise and how many times in one D.O sequence? > > > > metta, > > Agrios > > I should at least read what I wrote before hitting send :) ===== Sankhara is a multi-functional word, depending on its context. You are correct that as a khanda, sankhara is 50 cetasikas, but they are "led" by cetana (volition). In the technical definition of D.O., sankhara is cetana; specifically: - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 akusala cittas - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana is 4 arupavacara kusala cittas You can reference the Visuddhimagga Chapter XVII, paragraphs 102 - 104 for more details on the specfiic conditions involved in sankhara arising from avijja. Paragraphs 177 - 178 provides details on the specific condtions involved in sankhara supporting the arising of consciousness. Hope this helps. Some time back, I wrote out the entire DO in terms of dhammas (citta / cetasika / rupa) and conditions. It is a bit complex. Let me know if you want me to go searching for it. Metta, Rob M :-) 48094 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? robmoult Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hope this helps. Some time back, I wrote out the entire DO in terms > of dhammas (citta / cetasika / rupa) and conditions. It is a bit > complex. Let me know if you want me to go searching for it. Please see message 42453 for details. Metta, Rob M :-) 48095 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti abhidhammika Dear Howard, Herman, Evan, Nina, Robert K, Mike N and all How are you? Theravada Tipi.taka is comprehensive, and is even capable of teaching seemingly contradictory truths. Howard's "functional reality" could be subsumed under the term "Sammuti Saccaa, Convened Truth". Suttam Pi.taka is very rich in teachings based on Convened Truths, but the Buddha never forget to teach the ultimate realities in those Suttam texts as well. Howard wrote: "I have already put forward my disbelief in entities, i.e. in separate, self-existent realities, and I include paramattha dhammas among those phenomena that lack separate, independent status." Howard as well as Herman (and Evan as well?) seemed to understand Dhammasanganii to be teaching paramattha dhammaa (ultimate realities) arising in isolation. That understanding was a misundertanding. Dhammasanganii, despite its main functions being analysis and classification, dose not forget to teach that the ultimate realities arise only dependently. The following Pali quote from the very first Section shows (1) that the ultimate realities arise together dependently, and (2) that they do not arise in isolation. "ye vaa pana tasmim samaye ańńepi atthi pa.ticcasamuppannaa aruupino dhammaa– ime dhammaa kusalaa." Section 1, Mental Events Cittuppaadaka.n.dam, Dhammasanganii. "And whatever other dependently-arising mental phenomena are present at that time also arise. These phenomena are healthy ones." It is very important for us to avoid accusing Theravada Tipi.taka of teaching what it does not, and of not teaching what it does teach. With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - I have already put forward my disbelief in entities, i.e. in separate, self-existent realities, and I include paramattha dhammas among those phenomena that lack separate, independent status. On the other hand, there are many senses in which phenomena that are not ultimately real do have a "reality" of sorts, and that includes most ordinary pa~n~natti. To point out what I mean, there is something that I would call the "functional reality" of pa~n~natti. Suppose we look out the window and "see" a tree. For reasons that I have outlined before, there is no such entity except as a matter of convention. But that convention is not a groundless one. Our "seeing" of the tree is a kind of experiential predictor. On the basis of "seeing the tree", should we take certain conventional actions of "approaching the tree", "touching the tree", and "carefully examining its bark and leaves", there will arise a series of (expected) paramattha dhammas. In that sense, the "seen tree" had a sort of "reality" to it - a "functional reality". 48096 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:59am Subject: Re: Mindfulness robmoult Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Was looking at > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130037 > Woodward's "Manual of a Mystic" (Yogavachara) > the practice of samadhi and the jhanas. > << > This book is not part of the Pali Canon, though there is some > correspondence between the methods described here and those found in > Visuddhimagga and other parts of the Pali Canon, with, as the editor, Mrs. > C.A.F. Rhys Davids, admits, "certain discrepancies." > >> ===== I am focusing on the Suttas, the words of the Buddha. The Visuddhimagga and the Yogavacara may be part of the Pali cannon (depending on how broadly the term is used), but they are certainly not the word of the Buddha. ===== > > What other parts? Didn't you just ask that? Curious, I am, about Mrs. > Thomas and certain discrepancies, too. Another minor curiousity: pavana > - the wind, a big forest. :) There is something Jon mentions in a talk: > satipatthana pavana gamani patipada ... the way leading to the development > of satipatthana, the 8fnp; depending on translator and commentarial > understanding? > > And just to not pass up a chance to throw out another quote: > > Dispeller 2045. As regards NA KI~NCI IRIYAAPATHA.M KAPPETI <321.17> ("he > does not choose any posture"), the method is the same. For he does not > choose any posture among those beginning with walking with the > consciousness belonging to the five doors. ===== I consider "he does not choose any posture" to be "choiceless awareness". Metta, Rob M :-) 48097 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:02am Subject: Re: Meeting Phil robmoult --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Nina, Rob M and all > > > thanks for your reports. I would be good to hear more details. > Especially > > Rob's views on awareness now. And Phil: we should not regret to > have only a > > little time for study, but I think you do not regret it. We can > apply what > > we learn and can see Abhidhamma, or the Dhamma in all things. That > is the > > marvellous thing of his teachings. So many opportunities to learn. > > Yes, that's right. I like the sutta in which the Buddha says that > for the sake of devloping understand we are fortunate not to be born > in hell, where all is unpleasant, nor in deva realms, where all is > pleasant. It is in the human realm with its mix of pleasant and > unpleasant that we can develop understanding. How grateful we should > be to have this human existence. Your memory is very good, Phil! Nothing to change. Looking forward to our next visit in a few weeks time. Metta, Rob M :-) 48098 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > Sankhara is a multi-functional word, depending on its context. > > You are correct that as a khanda, sankhara is 50 cetasikas, but they > are "led" by cetana (volition). > > In the technical definition of D.O., sankhara is cetana; specifically: > - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 kamavacara > kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas > - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 akusala > cittas > - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana is 4 > arupavacara kusala cittas > > You can reference the Visuddhimagga Chapter XVII, paragraphs 102 - > 104 for more details on the specific conditions involved in sankhara > arising from avijja. Paragraphs 177 - 178 provides details on the > specific conditions involved in sankhara supporting the arising of > consciousness. > > Hope this helps. Some time back, I wrote out the entire DO in terms > of dhammas (citta / cetasika / rupa) and conditions. It is a bit > complex. Let me know if you want me to go searching for it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi RobM :) I do remember your post, but you stated there: "cetana in 8 kusala cittas and 12 in akusala cittas" I do not know how to imagine it in D.O. I do not see any citta yet. In the sense that I do not understand their momentary arising and formations. When avija arises, cetana arises and some other cetasikas accompany it? There is no citta yet, right? Also I think when whole formation arises, it forms what we know as sankhara khanda? If so, we have mental, body and speech sankharas before nama&rupa comes to be? I don't have Visuddhimagga. metta, Agrios 48099 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:49am Subject: Re: Mindfulness lbidd2 Rob: "The purpose of the primary object is to install samatha (tranquility and one-pointedness) as a "partner" / "foundation" to seeing things as they truly are." Hi Rob, I don't disagree, but I had a different thought today. Maybe the "patthana" part of satipatthana means a dwelling place. In other words, dwelling on the same kind of dhamma. Of course dhammanupassana includes all kinds of dhamma (realities) so I think the dwelling place in that case would have to be a sense of present arising. As for insight, I think the mere recognition or identification of a presently arising dhamma under-cuts the tendency to identify WITH that dhamma. Identifying WITH is self-view, but merely identifying is sati. "I am hungry" vs. "hungry sensations". I think the purpose of dwelling on one kind of dhamma is to suppress the hindrances: sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and scruples, and sceptical doubt. This is useful even if one isn't interested in cultivating jhana. These can be suppressed by sati in simply identifying them and returning to the dwelling place.In dwelling in present arising there isn't an actual turning away from a tendency. Larry 48100 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Rob: "The purpose of the primary object is to install samatha > (tranquility and one-pointedness) as a "partner" / "foundation" to > seeing things as they truly are." > > Hi Rob, > > I don't disagree, but I had a different thought today. Maybe > the "patthana" part of satipatthana means a dwelling place. In other > words, dwelling on the same kind of dhamma. Of course dhammanupassana > includes all kinds of dhamma (realities) so I think the dwelling > place in that case would have to be a sense of present arising. ===== Agree. ===== > > As for insight, I think the mere recognition or identification of a > presently arising dhamma under-cuts the tendency to identify WITH > that dhamma. Identifying WITH is self-view, but merely identifying is > sati. "I am hungry" vs. "hungry sensations". ===== Strongy agree ===== > > I think the purpose of dwelling on one kind of dhamma is to suppress > the hindrances: sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and scruples, and sceptical doubt. This is useful even > if one isn't interested in cultivating jhana. These can be suppressed > by sati in simply identifying them and returning to the dwelling > place.In dwelling in present arising there isn't an actual turning > away from a tendency. ===== Ven. Aggacitta made the bold statement to me, "After searching the entire Pali cannon electronically for all instances of the word samattha, I discovered that the Buddha never equated the term samattha with jhana." Let us assume that he is correct. Perhaps there are two functions of taking a specific object for meditation. My personal meditation experience indicates that taking an object supports the arising of calm / tranquility / one- pointedness (in other words, samattha). However, the taking of an object does not uproot defilements. It is what is done with the object that uproots defilements. Just a thought... Metta, Rob M :-) 48101 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/23/05 10:21:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: On the contrary, I think Herman has missed the point. Sarah has not advocated Dhamma study as a technique - or something to do in order to gain enlightenment. Therefore, she is unlikely to have advocated "not studying" as a technique for "avoiding delusion." The middle way is to understand that Dhamma study is a condition (or a factor) for enlightenment. ======================== And is there no proper inference to be drawn from understanding that Dhamma study is such a condition? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48102 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 7/23/05 12:00:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Howard as well as Herman (and Evan as well?) seemed to understand Dhammasanganii to be teaching paramattha dhammaa (ultimate realities) arising in isolation. That understanding was a misundertanding. ========================= No, actually I don't understand that to be the case. But I think some Buddhists interpret it so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48103 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti upasaka_howard Hi again, Suan - In a message dated 7/23/05 12:00:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: It is very important for us to avoid accusing Theravada Tipi.taka of teaching what it does not, and of not teaching what it does teach. ====================== If you're still talking about me, then you are making a mistake. At least you make no suggestion of "blasphemous" talk! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48104 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? robmoult Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > [...] > > Sankhara is a multi-functional word, depending on its context. > > > > You are correct that as a khanda, sankhara is 50 cetasikas, but they > > are "led" by cetana (volition). > > > > In the technical definition of D.O., sankhara is cetana; > specifically: > > - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 kamavacara > > kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas > > - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 akusala > > cittas > > - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana is > 4 > > arupavacara kusala cittas > > > > You can reference the Visuddhimagga Chapter XVII, paragraphs 102 - > > 104 for more details on the specific conditions involved in sankhara > > arising from avijja. Paragraphs 177 - 178 provides details on the > > specific conditions involved in sankhara supporting the arising of > > consciousness. > > > > Hope this helps. Some time back, I wrote out the entire DO in terms > > of dhammas (citta / cetasika / rupa) and conditions. It is a bit > > complex. Let me know if you want me to go searching for it. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > Hi RobM :) > I do remember your post, but you stated there: > "cetana in 8 kusala cittas and 12 in akusala cittas" ===== I checked back on my earlier post (42453). In that post, I listed both the formations of merit and formations of demerit, but I skipped the formations of imperturbable (para 104 from Visuddhimagga). This was to simply the discussion. ===== > > I do not know how to imagine it in D.O. I do not see any citta yet. > In the sense that I do not understand their momentary arising and > formations. When avija arises, cetana arises and some other cetasikas > accompany it? There is no citta yet, right? ===== Citta always arises with its associated cetasikas. Cetasikas cannot arise without its citta. Let's take a closer look at the first link in DO, avijja paccaya sankhara. In this case, avijja is defined as "moha in 12 akusala cittas". When any of the 12 akusala cittas arise, moha will aslo arise. Other cetasikas will also arise, but at this moment, for the purpose of analyzing paticcasamuppada, it is moha that is of most interest. Above, I have given the sankhara of sankhara (cetana / volition / kamma in this context): - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 akusala cittas - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana is 4 arupavacara kusala cittas Here are the ways in which moha (in 12 cittas) can act as a condition for cetana / kamma (in 29 cittas): Delusion conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Object: When one comprehends by means of insight that delusion leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) - Natural Decisive Support: When delusion (conceit, vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within the same citta by: - Root: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Proximity / Contiguity: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Association: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence / Non-Disappearance: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within a different citta by: - Object: When one is deluded into thinking that delusion is a happy state - Object Predominance / Decisive Support of Object: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Repetition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Absence / Disappearance: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) ===== > > Also I think when whole formation arises, it forms what we know > as sankhara khanda? If so, we have mental, body and speech sankharas > before nama&rupa comes to be? ===== I think that I am starting to see the source of your confusion. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be sankhara (sankhara here means mental factors). Whenever a citta arises, there will always be consciousness. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be cetana. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be rupa (as a support, except in arupavacara). Whenever a citta arises, there will always be contact. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be feeling. All of these things (exept for rupa which operates on a different time scale) will arise together and fall away together. DO is more of a causual sequence than a temporal sequence. DO explains why we are bound to samsara. DO uses the same terms (sankhara, rupa, contact, feeling) but not to indicate the order in which they arise (they arise at the same time) but rather the interdependences they have. Does this help or does it confuse further? Metta, Rob M :-) 48105 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi Herman, In my humble opinion, no-self should be seen as a level of achievement, and not a doctrine. Why? Because, in Buddhism, when we say no-self we also mean no-place for the poisons to take hold, no-place for suffering to take root. I have not met any at this level yet, therefore regardless of what members of DSG believe (doctrine), selves predominate. They are born, suffer, die, and get reincarnated into a new form/mind. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 21 July, 2005 14:37 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Sarah and all, The following paragraph prompted me to write this post. > the sooner we see that it is citta and its accompanying cetasikas which experience objects rather than any self, the better. There can be awareness now of seeing or hearing or thinking without any attending to objects with a sense of self, wouldn't you say? > I think the word "self" has had an unnecessarily troubled history at dsg. For me, there are uses of "self" that are confused, but there are some uses of "self" which are quite justified. I think we all agree that "self" as agent/doer acting independently of conditions is a nono. Likewise with "self" as some unchanging essence. But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word "self", I'll use auto. I am not again going to go into whether citta experiences, or whether the citta is the experience. But if we look at the stream of experience from the viewpoint of where it is going, it seems clear that the stream of experience goes around in circles, driven by an auto-regulating craving/satisfaction mechanism. And to be able to auto-regulate, there must be auto-referencing. The stream of experience is auto-conscious. Breathing, thirst, hunger, sex are common examples of such auto-regulating cycles. The stream of experience is auto-matic (it acts on itself). It is clear to me that there is no self that has set or is able to change the goal of this stream of experience, which is simply to be auto-perpetuating. It is also clear to me that there is no essential, unchanging self that the stream of experience happens to. But what is not clear to me is that this stream of experience is not *my* experience. I am what I see, I see what I am. I am what I hear, I hear what I am. I am what I feel, I feel what I am. I am what I taste, I taste what I am. I am what I smell, I smell what I am. I am what I think, I think what I am. Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? Herman 48106 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles hi all, So can it be said that the self arises and falls on condition? Can self be a condition? Because of the arising of self, can Mind states arise and Physical body arise? And on the falling of self, can Mind states fall and Physical body fall? If I am only a fleeting moment, then can this body can be mine for less than a fleeting moment? CharlesD PS: Be careful of Doctrine, it often stops you from seeking and seeing truth. ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 22 July, 2005 04:26 Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Kel, Experience of what is "mine"? Mind? Physical body? Mind states arise and fall on condition. Physical body arises and falls on condition. One can therefore only look at these rightly as: "This is not me, This is not mine, This I am not". (Actually, could someone get the exact quote here because I have not been able to find it). This is what needs to be accepted and owned up to. There is only process not my process or his/her process. With Metta, Evan <...> 48107 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi all, The Definition of self today is not the same as the definition of self during the Buddha's day; do we agree on this? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 23 July, 2005 02:00 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Evan, > Hi Herman, > > ---------------------- > Herman wrote: > Isn't there something that binds the stream of khandas together into > this stream and that stream? I think Agrios hit it on the head when he > brought memory into play. Aren't memories very specific to each > individual? > ---------------------- > > Yes, there is something that binds the stream of khandas together. > Conditionality. Yes, but surely we can be a little more specific than that ? To say that conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality doesn't actually say anything. Whether you speak more conventionally or less conventionally, whether you speak in terms of beings or cittas, the actions of a being condition the flavour of a future unfolding of *that* being, the intent of citta conditions the flavour of yet unarisen citta. The perfections of the Buddha do not accrue to *me*, they accrue to *him*, the cessation of *his* stream of citta has no bearing on *me*. He is not here, I am. Kind Regards Herman 48108 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi all, No, no. The ending of self-view is the end of the path. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 23 July, 2005 02:03 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Agrios, > [...] > > > I can't say that thinking is necessary for belief to form. > > > I think experience is necessary and memory of some sort. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, well said. > > Hi Herman, > > you agree? just thinking, > belief in Self blinds us to dhammas as they are. > but what bounds us to perpetual existence is lobha and avija. > We are no better then worms experiencing some irritations, > just more lucky with this vippaka. It will change as well :-) > == Yeah, I agree for sure. It is good to point out that the ending of self-view is only the beginning of the path. Kind Regards Herman 48109 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) dacostacharles Hi, Are you all living in Hong Kong? I may be visiting there next year. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 21 July, 2005 05:42 Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hearty congratulations and best wishes to Jon! When does he become > officially liberated? (And I'm not referring to vimutti! ;-)) ... S: ;-)) The latter would be more to the point. Seriously, he's been flat out helping to get laws enacted and now writing hand-over reports and also being taken out to numerous lunches by colleagues....Officially tomorrow, after over 20 yrs with the Hong Kong government. <...> 48110 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) robmoult Hi Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi, > > Are you all living in Hong Kong? > > I may be visiting there next year. ===== Our moderators, Jon & Sarah, (now on vacation in Thailand so slow to answer at this time) do live in Hong Kong. I visit Hong Kong from time to time. Let Jon & Sarah know when your plans are firmed up. I am sure that they would love to meet you. Who knows, I might also be in town for the occasion! BTW, I like your recent posts regarding "non-self" being a target rather than a doctrine. I feel that it is both, but sometimes the doctrine aspect overshadows. Eradication of non-self is the end of the path for we "uninstructed worldlings" (i.e. when we become a Sotapanna). However, the true end of the path is Arahantship (no more rebirth). Metta, Rob M :-) 48111 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Charles, I think what Herman was referring to is the ending of self view (sakkaya-ditthi) along with doubt (vicikicha) and attachment to rites and rituals (silabbata-paramasa) are the 3 lower fetters which once broken result in stream entry and the beginning of the ultramundane path. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Sunday, 24 July 2005 1:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi all, No, no. The ending of self-view is the end of the path. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 23 July, 2005 02:03 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Agrios, > [...] > > > I can't say that thinking is necessary for belief to form. > > > I think experience is necessary and memory of some sort. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, well said. > > Hi Herman, > > you agree? just thinking, > belief in Self blinds us to dhammas as they are. > but what bounds us to perpetual existence is lobha and avija. > We are no better then worms experiencing some irritations, > just more lucky with this vippaka. It will change as well :-) > == Yeah, I agree for sure. It is good to point out that the ending of self-view is only the beginning of the path. Kind Regards Herman 48112 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Charles, No, I can't say I agree on this. The khanhas as impermanent aggregates which rise and fall conditionally are operate in the same way today as they did in the Buddha's time therefore there is no need for a redefinition of a self (or not-self). With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Sunday, 24 July 2005 1:23 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi all, The Definition of self today is not the same as the definition of self during the Buddha's day; do we agree on this? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 23 July, 2005 02:00 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Evan, > Hi Herman, > > ---------------------- > Herman wrote: > Isn't there something that binds the stream of khandas together into > this stream and that stream? I think Agrios hit it on the head when he > brought memory into play. Aren't memories very specific to each > individual? > ---------------------- > > Yes, there is something that binds the stream of khandas together. > Conditionality. Yes, but surely we can be a little more specific than that ? To say that conditioned phenomena arise because of conditionality doesn't actually say anything. Whether you speak more conventionally or less conventionally, whether you speak in terms of beings or cittas, the actions of a being condition the flavour of a future unfolding of *that* being, the intent of citta conditions the flavour of yet unarisen citta. The perfections of the Buddha do not accrue to *me*, they accrue to *him*, the cessation of *his* stream of citta has no bearing on *me*. He is not here, I am. Kind Regards Herman 48113 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness lbidd2 Rob: "Ven. Aggacitta made the bold statement to me, "After searching the entire Pali cannon electronically for all instances of the word samattha, I discovered that the Buddha never equated the term samattha with jhana." Let us assume that he is correct. Perhaps there are two functions of taking a specific object for meditation. My personal meditation experience indicates that taking an object supports the arising of calm / tranquility / one- pointedness (in other words, samattha). However, the taking of an object does not uproot defilements. It is what is done with the object that uproots defilements." Hi Rob, I think the two functions would be jhana or insight and, at least according to commentary, they would have different kinds of objects (concept or reality). I agree that taking an object is "usually" supportive of calm but doesn't in itself uproot defilements. However, wherever there is calm there is sati. So I think there must be at least a small measure of uprooting going on. Larry 48114 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Howard, Andrew and Charles, Thanks for all your comments, Charles. I hope the following addresses at least some of the matters you raise. > Andrew> No-self is a characteristic of realities that can be directly known > and, as I believe you have correctly stated in the past, direct > knowing is indescribable. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > But in reading the Tipitaka, it does help to know what the word 'anatta' > is supposed to mean, just as it helps to know what 'tanha' is supposed to mean. > ------------------------------------- 1]The self that the teaching on anatta rejects is a self that is not inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. 2]Some quirky readings of this have turned anatta into "There is no self that can do anything" and "There is no self that can control anything". The upshot of Anatta1 is that there is no absolute self. The upshot of Anatta2 is that there is absolutely no self. Anatta2 is not found in the suttas, though it is promulgated widely as a law of the universe. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Kind Regards Herman 48115 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: my favorite tune, to Tep. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina {Attn.: Howard, Kel, Sarah} - I am sorry that I did not have a chance to reply to your message # 48034 soon enough. I truly appreciate your gentleness and frankness as expressed very well in the following dialogue. >Tep: The song plays without a directing 'self' (no musicians?) and with no intention, attention, or concern when it may end (hence, no lobha?). ------- N: Yea, I hope to sing it until my death. I tune in with the suttas in order to stay in harmony with the entire Tipitaka and Commentaries. ------- Tep: Of course, it is your free choice to do what you want with your life. Reflecting on my several past comments on your "theme song", now I feel ashamed for questioning its effectiveness. Like Kelvin has said (indirectly) that it is none of my business -- and I thank him for that. Kelvin is right, and I hereby ask you to kindly accept my apology for "trespassing" on your turf (configuratively). N: If you like, we can discuss the Kundali sutta you often quoted. (Saturday is usually my day off). Going with it slowly. Perhaps you could post the sutta again. Tep: How kind of you to suggest so. Yes, I would be glad to discuss this wonderful sutta with you, starting next Saturday -- if it is not too late. If you agree about next Saturday, I shall post the sutta (the on-line version I have is an abstract, though) one day before the discussion date (which is Saturday, 7/30). Fortunately, I have a Thai version that can be used to fill in the missing detail. N: Can you quote me where I rejected a sutta or turned it around? Tep: Yes, I acn. But I am sorry if it may sound like an accusation. Admittedly, getting a reject is like tasting sour milk that is supposed to be fresh and sweet. To prove my point I will have to dig into our past dialogues a little bit and get back to you later. I promise that this will be just a fact presentation without any akusala intention and it will not lead to any childish argument. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 22-07-2005 01:34 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Your message #48002 plays your familiar theme song again. Its central component is satipatthana with a panca-dvara object; the background melodies are the 'intellectual understanding' and the 'ten perfections'. 48116 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re:Pe Maung Tin: Vism.XIV,174 Vism.XIV,175 nichiconn Dear Nina, Larry, I'll try to keep matching up quotes now that I've found our place. I checked to make sure the 17 was not a typo and it is correct (well, it is 'seventeen' in the book), but U Tin also has 18... let me back up a bit and give more of his translation: << [470] Of the two classes of consciousness rooted in hate, there are 18 mental activities, to wit: 11 which appear in their true nature and which are constant, and are associated with the First Consciousness; 4 "or whatever" states; 3 inconstant states. Of these, the 11 appearing in their true nature are: Contact Concentration Volition Unconscientiousness Applied Thought Fearlessness of Blame Sustained Thought Hate Energy Delusion Life The 4 "or-whatever" states are: Desire Distraction Resolve Attention The 3 inconstant states are: Envy Worry Meanness Of these, by it [associated states] offend [the object], or itself is offensive, or the mere act of offending - this is hate. It has flying into anger (or churlishness) as characteristic, like a smitten snake; spreading of itself (or writhing), as when poison takes effect, as function; or, burning that on which it depends {1} as function, like a jungle fire; offending (or injuring) as manifestation, like a foe who has got his chance; the grounds of vexation as proximate cause, like urine mixed with poison. 1} I.e. the body or heart-basis. Envy is that which envies, and has the characteristic of envying the prosperity of others, the function of taking no delight in such prosperity, the manifestation of turning one's face from such prosperity, the proximate cause being such prosperity; and it should be regarded as a fetter. Meanness is the state of being mean. It has, as characteristic, the concealing of one's property, either attained or about to be obtained; the not enduring the sharing of one's property in common with others, as function; the shrinking from such sharing, or niggardliness or sour feeling {2} as manifestation; one's own property as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as mental ugliness. 2} , see Expositor, Index. A contemptible act is kukata; the state of [a displeased mind, produced by making] such an act [its object] is worry (kukkucca). It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and omission as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as a state of bondage {1}. 1} See also Expositor 342-343 for the definitions of hate, envy, meanness, and worry}. The remaining states are of the kinds described. Thus these 17 mental activities should be understood as being united with the First Consciousness rooted in hate, as also with the Second. What is distinctive is the arising by instigation, and the inclusion of sloth-torpor among the inconstant states. >> end quote, Path of Purity, pp551-5. I think he is not counting hate itself. peace, connie Pe Maung Tin counts 17 cetasikas, whereas our text eighteen. I have to do some counting! Nina. 48117 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:12pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? buddhistmedi... Hi, Rob M (and Agrios) - You two are having a very interesting discussion on sankhara khandha and citta. Your clear explanation of sankhara khandha shows your clear understanding of the subject matter. Although I am not an Abhidhammika, yet the fundamentals of sankhara khandha and citta are important for intellectual learning/understanding of the Visuddhimagga (I bought the book). But I still am confused about sankhata and sankhara and the Vism. does not help me much (I am not blaming the book, though). Once Nina told me that sankhata was the same as sankhara, I was confused but decided to drop the subject. Could you please explain why sankhata (conditioned dhamma) is the same as sankhara, if I did not misinterpret Nina's words? By the way, is sankhara not the same as sankhara khandha? Respectfully yours, Tep ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Agrios, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > > wrote: > > [...] > > > Sankhara is a multi-functional word, depending on its context. > > > > > > You are correct that as a khanda, sankhara is 50 cetasikas, but > they > > > are "led" by cetana (volition). > > > > > > In the technical definition of D.O., sankhara is cetana; > > specifically: > > > - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 > kamavacara > > > kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas > > > - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 > akusala > > > cittas > > > - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana > is > > 4 > > > arupavacara kusala cittas > > > > > > You can reference the Visuddhimagga Chapter XVII, paragraphs 102 - > > > > 104 for more details on the specific conditions involved in > sankhara > > > arising from avijja. Paragraphs 177 - 178 provides details on the > > > specific conditions involved in sankhara supporting the arising > of > > > consciousness. > > > > > > Hope this helps. Some time back, I wrote out the entire DO in > terms > > > of dhammas (citta / cetasika / rupa) and conditions. It is a bit > > > complex. Let me know if you want me to go searching for it. > > > > > > Metta, > > > Rob M :-) > > > > Hi RobM :) > > I do remember your post, but you stated there: > > "cetana in 8 kusala cittas and 12 in akusala cittas" > > ===== > > I checked back on my earlier post (42453). In that post, I listed > both the formations of merit and formations of demerit, but I skipped > the formations of imperturbable (para 104 from Visuddhimagga). This > was to simply the discussion. > > ===== > > > > I do not know how to imagine it in D.O. I do not see any citta yet. > > In the sense that I do not understand their momentary arising and > > formations. When avija arises, cetana arises and some other > cetasikas > > accompany it? There is no citta yet, right? > > ===== > > Citta always arises with its associated cetasikas. Cetasikas cannot > arise without its citta. > > Let's take a closer look at the first link in DO, avijja paccaya > sankhara. > > In this case, avijja is defined as "moha in 12 akusala cittas". When > any of the 12 akusala cittas arise, moha will aslo arise. Other > cetasikas will also arise, but at this moment, for the purpose of > analyzing paticcasamuppada, it is moha that is of most interest. > > Above, I have given the sankhara of sankhara (cetana / volition / > kamma in this context): > - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 kamavacara > kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas > - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 akusala > cittas > - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana is 4 > arupavacara kusala cittas > > Here are the ways in which moha (in 12 cittas) can act as a condition > for cetana / kamma (in 29 cittas): > > Delusion conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: > - Object: When one comprehends by means of insight that delusion > leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) > - Natural Decisive Support: When delusion (conceit, vanity, etc.) > motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) > > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within the same > citta by: > - Root: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas > - Proximity / Contiguity: There is no separation in time or space > between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta > and cetasikas > - Co-nascence: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise > together > - Mutuality: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually > support and mutually reinforce each other > - Support: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas > - Natural Decisive Support: Moha, together with greed or aversion, > motivate one to perform bad deeds > - Association: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas > through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling > away > - Presence / Non-Disappearance: The presence of moha allows the citta > and other cetasikas to arise > > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within a > different citta by: > - Object: When one is deluded into thinking that delusion is a happy > state > - Object Predominance / Decisive Support of Object: When one > remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as > akusala > - Repetition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions > delusion in the second and so on > - Absence / Disappearance: When the first akusala javana citta falls > away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta > to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) > > ===== > > > > Also I think when whole formation arises, it forms what we know > > as sankhara khanda? If so, we have mental, body and speech > sankharas > > before nama&rupa comes to be? > > ===== > > I think that I am starting to see the source of your confusion. > > Whenever a citta arises, there will always be sankhara (sankhara here > means mental factors). Whenever a citta arises, there will always be > consciousness. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be cetana. > Whenever a citta arises, there will always be rupa (as a support, > except in arupavacara). Whenever a citta arises, there will always be > contact. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be feeling. All > of these things (exept for rupa which operates on a different time > scale) will arise together and fall away together. > > DO is more of a causual sequence than a temporal sequence. DO > explains why we are bound to samsara. DO uses the same terms > (sankhara, rupa, contact, feeling) but not to indicate the order in > which they arise (they arise at the same time) but rather the > interdependences they have. > > Does this help or does it confuse further? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 48118 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" -- Tep is confused. buddhistmedi... Hi, CharlesD {Herman and all} - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi all, > > I have to say this: > I believe, "the view that the self is permanently non-existent is not part of the Buddha's teaching, it contradicts the middle way." However, during meditation or interacting with others, a goal is to dwell beyond the self, or produce actions that are not driven by the self, self-interest that is. The goal of this ...self is to experience things like the sublime states when appropriate. > > The no-, non-, not-, etc., -self is a state/level. Not a permanent reality. > > CharlesD > > PS: I would add to the post below -- I am also what others .... I am the OM > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tep Sastri > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 21 July, 2005 15:05 > Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self/ "auto" > > > > Hi Herman {Sarah and others} - > > I am sorry to be the first to respond to your invitation to join. > > H: > > > I am what I see, I see what I am. > > I am what I hear, I hear what I am. > > I am what I feel, I feel what I am. > > I am what I taste, I taste what I am. > > I am what I smell, I smell what I am. > > I am what I think, I think what I am. > > > > Yes? No? Maybe? Thoughts, anyone? > > > > Tep: It sounds like 'This is I, this is my self'. Don't you think so? > > H: > But I cannot think of a word other than "self" to accurately describe the self-regulating, self-referencing systems which combine to make a functioning being. There is, of course, the word auto, but that's just Greek for self. But so as to avoid people tripping over the word "self", I'll use auto. > > > > Tep: That is a clever description, Herman. You have now become an authority on self. > > <...> Tep: Charles, you wrote, " The goal of this ...self is to experience things like the sublime states when appropriate. The no-, non-, not-, etc., -self is a state/level. Not a permanent reality." But I am not so sure what you really meant. Although there have been a great many posts on " self " (which may be a measure of the existing confusion, if you will), the only thing that is clear to me is the middle way between the two extreme views. Therefore, it would be terrific if someone among us could summarize the key ideas behind all these posts for me. Am I "asking too much"? Warm regards to all, Tep 48119 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:35pm Subject: What to do? Herman kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, I think the important thing is consequence anatta. Obviously you wouldn't be a fan of "choiceless observation". What should we do and what can we do from your perspective according to what Buddha taught? - kel > Anatta2 is not found in the suttas, though it is promulgated widely as > a law of the universe. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. 48120 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:36pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness nichiconn Hi, Smiling Man, > Was looking at > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130037 > Woodward's "Manual of a Mystic" (Yogavachara) > the practice of samadhi and the jhanas. > << > This book is not part of the Pali Canon, though there is some > correspondence between the methods described here and those found in > Visuddhimagga and other parts of the Pali Canon, with, as the editor, Mrs. > C.A.F. Rhys Davids, admits, "certain discrepancies." > >> ===== RobM: I am focusing on the Suttas, the words of the Buddha. The Visuddhimagga and the Yogavacara may be part of the Pali cannon (depending on how broadly the term is used), but they are certainly not the word of the Buddha. ===== c: O.K. You are focusing on the suttas, the words of the Buddha. Ok. Not the words of the disciples, then? ;) Never mind. I asked: > What other parts? Didn't you just ask that? You seem to answer: > the suttas. So now, WHICH SUTTAS? Which suttas what? In the above who-cares yoga manual description (as NOT PC) it says: "methods described [...] in [...] other parts of the Pali Canon". really. what are these descriptions, where in the PC? As far as I know: Vissudhimagga, aka, "THE (Buddhist) Meditation Manual" and Dispeller of Delusion... which we aren't concerned with now. If anyone has read this other NonPC manual, I might be interested to know about the "certain discrepancies". [cut] Rob: I consider "he does not choose any posture" to be "choiceless awareness". c: I think that's what they're trying to say with "choiceless awareness", too; a zennish way of pointing out that choice is not a paramattha dhamma - no we, no choice & but how often awareness? Is it a PC suttic phrase? peace, connie. 48121 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:36pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? nichiconn Dear Agrios, RobM ;), Rob: You can reference the Visuddhimagga Chapter XVII, paragraphs 102 - 104 for more details on the specfiic conditions involved in sankhara arising from avijja. Paragraphs 177 - 178 provides details on the specific condtions involved in sankhara supporting the arising of consciousness. connie: see below. peace. Path of Purification, ch.17: 102. Herein, for those of merit ignorance is a condition in two ways: it is a condition in two ways, namely as object condition and as support condition. For ignorance is a condition, as object condition, for formations of merit of the sense sphere at the time of comprehending [by means of insight] ignorance as liable to destruction and fall; and it is likewise for those of the fine-material sphere at the time of knowing a confused mind by means of direct-knowledge consciousness [through penetrating others' minds and so on]. But it is a condition, as decisive support condition, in two cases, that is to say, [for the sense-sphere formation] in one who, for the purpose of surmounting ignorance, fulfils the various instances of sense-sphere merit-making consisting in giving, etc., and [for the fine-material-sphere formation] in one who arouses the fine-material jhanas [for the same purpose]. Likewise in one who effects that merit while aspiring to the delight of sense-sphere becoming and fine-material becoming because he is confused by ignorance. 103. And for the next in many ways: it is a condition for formations of demerit in many ways. How? As object condition at the time of the arising of greed, etc., contingent upon ignorance; as object-predominance and object-decisive-support respectively at the times of giving importance [to ignorance] and enjoying [it]; as decisive-support in one who, being confused by ignorance and unaware of danger, kills living things, etc.; as proximity, contiguity, proximity-decisive-support, repetition, absence, and disappearance, for the second impulsion and those that follow; as root-cause, conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, and non-disappearance, in one doing anything unprofitable. It is thus a condition in many ways. 104. But for the last kind only once: [542] it is reckoned as a condition in one way, namely, as decisive-support condition only, for formations of the imperturbable. But its relation as decisive-support condition should be understood as stated under the formations of merit. [...] 177. Herein, firstly as regards the formation of merit: the formation of merit comprising the eight volitions of the sense sphere ((1)-(8)) is a condition in two ways, as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, equally for all the nine kinds of resultant consciousnesses ((41)-(49)) in rebirth-linking in a happy destiny in the sense-sphere becoming. That formation comprising the five profitable volitions of the fine-material sphere ((9)-(13)) [is a condition] in like manner for the five kinds of rebirth-linking in the fine-material becoming ((57)-(61)). 178. That of the sense sphere divided up as aforesaid is a condition in two ways, as aforesaid, for seven kinds of limited[-sphere] resultant consciousnessess ((34)-(40)) - excluding the root-cause-less mind-consciousness element accompanied by equanimity (41) - in the course of an existence, but not in rebirth-linking, in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. And that same formation is a condition, likewise for five kinds of resultant consciousness ((34), (35), (39)-(41)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, in the fine-material becoming. It is a condition likewise for eight kinds of limited[-sphere] resultant consciousness ((34)-(41)) in the course of existence, not in rebirth-linking, in the unhappy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. [557] For then it is a condition [for such profitable resultant consciousness occurring] in hell encountering a desirable object [on such occassions] as the Elder Maha-Moggallana's visits to hell and so on. But among animals and powerful ghosts too a desirable object is obtained [through the same condition]. 48122 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? agriosinski Hi RobM, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > > Citta always arises with its associated cetasikas. Cetasikas cannot > arise without its citta. > > Let's take a closer look at the first link in DO, avijja paccaya > sankhara. > > In this case, avijja is defined as "moha in 12 akusala cittas". When > any of the 12 akusala cittas arise, moha will aslo arise. Other > cetasikas will also arise, but at this moment, for the purpose of > analyzing paticcasamuppada, it is moha that is of most interest. I am with you... > Above, I have given the sankhara of sankhara (cetana / volition / > kamma in this context): Lost. I do not understand this sentence above :( > - as part of formations of merit, sankhara is cetana in 8 kamavacara > kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas > - as part of formations of demerit, sankhara is cetana in 12 akusala > cittas > - as part of formations of the imperturbable, sankhara is cetana is 4 > arupavacara kusala cittas > > Here are the ways in which moha (in 12 cittas) can act as a condition > for cetana / kamma (in 29 cittas): > > Delusion conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: > - Object: When one comprehends by means of insight that delusion > leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) > - Natural Decisive Support: When delusion (conceit, vanity, etc.) > motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) > > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within the same > citta by: > - Root: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas > - Proximity / Contiguity: There is no separation in time or space > between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta > and cetasikas > - Co-nascence: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise > together > - Mutuality: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually > support and mutually reinforce each other > - Support: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas > - Natural Decisive Support: Moha, together with greed or aversion, > motivate one to perform bad deeds > - Association: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas > through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling > away > - Presence / Non-Disappearance: The presence of moha allows the citta > and other cetasikas to arise > > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within a > different citta by: > - Object: When one is deluded into thinking that delusion is a happy > state > - Object Predominance / Decisive Support of Object: When one > remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as > akusala > - Repetition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions > delusion in the second and so on > - Absence / Disappearance: When the first akusala javana citta falls > away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta > to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) > > ===== > > > > Also I think when whole formation arises, it forms what we know > > as sankhara khanda? If so, we have mental, body and speech > sankharas > > before nama&rupa comes to be? > > ===== > > I think that I am starting to see the source of your confusion. > > Whenever a citta arises, there will always be sankhara (sankhara here > means mental factors). Whenever a citta arises, there will always be > consciousness. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be cetana. > Whenever a citta arises, there will always be rupa (as a support, > except in arupavacara). Whenever a citta arises, there will always be > contact. Whenever a citta arises, there will always be feeling. All > of these things (exept for rupa which operates on a different time > scale) will arise together and fall away together. > > DO is more of a causual sequence than a temporal sequence. DO > explains why we are bound to samsara. DO uses the same terms > (sankhara, rupa, contact, feeling) but not to indicate the order in > which they arise (they arise at the same time) but rather the > interdependences they have. > > Does this help or does it confuse further? Thanks RobM, It helps a lot. I was thinking along this way: no matter what citta arises, but if arises with avija(moha) as its cetasika, another stream of cetasikas (called sankhara) will arise as well to join and form precondition for next step of DO - arising of vinnana. I was thinking, only certain cetasikas out from 50 sankharas will join, depending on already arisen cetasikas or maybe other conditions. I would never think they all arise at the same moment. :) I know there always be vedana, but I was sure DO is giving exact moment of vedana joining the stream - after phassa and not before. I'll need more time to understand this. lots of metta, Agrios 48123 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > 1]The self that the teaching on anatta rejects is a self that is not > inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. > > 2]Some quirky readings of this have turned anatta into "There is no > self that can do anything" and "There is no self that can control > anything". > > The upshot of Anatta1 is that there is no absolute self. > The upshot of Anatta2 is that there is absolutely no self. > > Anatta2 is not found in the suttas, though it is promulgated widely as > a law of the universe. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Hi Herman Thanks for this - I love and envy your clarity of expression. It helps. The topic of anatta is one I do find extremely confusing when I tackle it head-on. All your comments, I can honestly say I identify with. However, I am still concerned about Anatta1. I think there are real dangers in it for one seeking right view. I don't think I have been very successful in explaining my concerns, so perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi can do better. This is from his Introduction to the Brahmajala Sutta: "Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, the higher attainments in meditation ... will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at the outset of the practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to a large field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his perception, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be colored red. The change will only give him a larger area to see as red, but will not help him to see things in their true colour. Analogously, if one begins a practice with a view of self, and persists without changing this view, then whatever develops in the course of practice will go to confirm the initial thesis ... Taking the idea of self at its face value, as indicating a real entity, the theorist will proceed to weave around it a web of speculations apparently confirmed by his attainments ..." I think Evan did a really good job at explaining the folly of speculating around a "self" that lasts only a fraction of a second. I will stick my neck out and propose an Anatta3: there is absolutely no absolute self! There is just the conditioned arising and falling away of a mixture of impermanent realities. In truth, the Tathagata doesn't exist. For one of right view, a self cannot be seen in *anything*. It is a concept. Thinking. If you start to try and reason out of this to make things sit more comfortably with "daily life", you are weaving speculations that will only confirm the illusion of daily life. For me, Anatta1 is rather obvious. The Buddha said that his Dhamma was anything but obvious. This makes me more than a little unsettled whenever I feel that Anatta1 might be the solution (which I still do from time to time). In summary, I don't think we can attribute the radical nature of the Anatta teaching to quirkiness or translators' flourish. It really *is* "difficult to see". The Buddha wasn't kidding ... Best wishes Andrew T 48124 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:50pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Rob M, ---------------------- RM: > This Sutta starts with a monk asking four fellow monks the way to purify one's vision and getting four different answers. ----------------------- You might be right, but it seems to me that he got one answer four different ways. I think "the six media of sense contact" "the five khandhas" "the four great elements" and "whatever arises" all describe the same thing. ----------------------- RM: > The first monk advises observing the six media of sense contact. The second monk advises observing the five clinging aggregates. The third monk advises observing the four great elements and the fourth monk advocates "choiceless awareness" (observing whatever arises). The Buddha makes the important point that, according to one's accumulations, one can purify one's vision by different techniques but following the same principle (seeing things as they truly are). Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of DSG), is one approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid approach! ----------------------- I would like you to explain how any of those answers amounts to "taking primary objects." Ken H 48125 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:57pm Subject: Re: [Dharma-Direct] from "balancing_life" nichiconn dear sensibly grounded Alice, i like that finger-necklace, too. So much. Angie rushing headlong pursuing what he thought best between those two fields of merit and stopped, just that one finger-snap short of that terrible step into the crevice between the crushing mountains that would, rest assured, plunge him straight on to avici. thank you, connie 48126 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Objects of last javana cittas kelvin_lwin Hi all, So objects are (a) kamma, (b) kamma nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. My question is, can they be both pannati and paramattha? I couldn't find the answer in UP. Thanks. - kel 48127 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah & All... balancing_life Hi Sarah & EveryBody & EveryOne Here, Thanks for your gread advice and i thank you taking your time & trouble to write to me. Please don't get me wrong about my brother...he is a nice man with a good heart, but his most "precious treasure", my niece was taken away from him prematurely, & that made him very sad, desperate & angry. Yes, he does feel guilty also, as he had to divide his time between his daughters from his first wife and his time with his present family...i guess like me, he had many regrets, that he didn't have more time to spend it with his daughters. Nah, cockroaches are had to catch and i usually had to stamp them to death, there and then or else they will cause havoc in my house, (as i have had experienced it in my old office) esp when they breed so quickly & foul up the place... Do you know that ,according to the trivia that i have read, they have been existence since beginning of time? There are some aquariums that sell live cockroaches/centipedes/disfigured or unwanted baby goldfishes/lizards, etc & aquarium breeders/lovers will buy them & feed them to their "arrowana" fish? Now that is really a sin to me. Last time, i also had many fish-tanks, as it was one of my hobbies, before i became an internet addict...lol...& i used to feed live worms to my fishes, but eversince i became a Buddhist, i know that it is a sin to do that, so i feed them dried fish food instead. There is one story, that i read in one of the buddhism books relating to this... Once, a woman was diagnosed with terminal cancer & the doctor has also given hope on her, meaning that her "time" is near...then one of her friends advised her to buy "live" animals/insects/worms & birds, etc that is meant for sale & "free" them somewhere safe...after doing so, she was cured of her cancer and went she went back to the doctor, her doctor was surprised to see her alive & well and even found no traces of cancer, inside her. Another story is that, once a chief monk could forsee that "time was up" for one of his diciple boy monks...as he could not bear to see him die, he sent him on an errand to another temple...then after completing his errand, he went back to his master who was shocked to see him alive and asked him if anything happened on his journey and the boy monk answered that, on his way to the the neighbouring temple,he saw ants that were drowning as they were crossing a stream, so he quickly made a bridge made up of sticks & grass & whatever he could find, and therefore the ants were saved. So, i guess, in both stories, both their Karma has changed, due to the good deeds that they did. In Malay words :- (just for your info only) Dosa = Sins Manusia = Humans With Metta :} AliceInPreferingToBeALurkerOnlyLand. ------------------------------------------------ Hi Alice, (Christine, AntonyW & all) I'm rather behind with some replies .... S: not taking lives does not mean one has to be a vegetarian. The Buddha wasn't S: :) I had the same training..... . S: I think this was good advice and is supported by the Buddha's words. Not just laypeople, but also bhikkhus eat meat unless specially slaughtered. Others may add more details if you request – I'm afraid I won't have time to pull out texts this week. (Chris, Antony W??) S: This is just thinking about it. When we're confident that avoiding harm is the right way and there is metta instead of dosa at such times, one isn't bothered by the mosquitoes or cockroaches. I've seen amongst my students that those who are most bothered are the ones flapping and swatting and just building up dosa. I think we can just get used to wearing suitable clothing, using insect repellant spray, keeping the house clean, taking cockroaches outside and so on S:Again, I'm sure others like Chris and Antony could add more. .... S: but when we feel angry or disappointed, it's also dosa – whether we show it or keep quiet. We can always justify this dosa, but the problem is never mankind... S: It's understandable and I'm sure it's the same for her father. But it's so useless as you can see in his case. Better to put your time and energy into helping others as you try to do. S: It's quite a common problem and often there are no warning signals at all. Like your niece, some girls may be very well-behaved good students and may keep all their depressions and worries to themselves. Please don't blame yourself anymore. S: He has to do things his way. We can't always help those dear to us. Be patient and have metta, so he knows he can turn to you if he wishes. As you go on to say, `there is no use in talking or persuading him otherwise. S: He blames himself instead of accepting the complex conditions and kamma at work. It must be very hard for him and he needs to be strong for the rest of his family. S: Wow! – I don't recall experiences like this at such a young age. .... S: Depression or dosa can always find something to latch onto:) As you suggest it goes from one story-line to another....always looking for fuel. What is the bad kamma? Thinking with dosa and depression about your family difficulties, work and so on is not bad kamma. It is the accumulation of more dosa on account of stories about what has been seen, heard and so on. This is what will lead to more bad kamma in future. We dig our own graves of bad kamma by not seeing the truth of the present realities. Yes, it takes strength and courage to face up to these truths. S: Please keep writing to us, Alice. You really have a lot to contribute and I enjoy your reflections a lot. As I've said to others, I'll be away for a few weeks so any replies of mine are likely to be delayed. Hopefully, other members, will respond to you. Please tell us if you're having a tough spell anytime. S: Your friend gave you good advice. Most of what we think of as suffering in this life – the unpleasant mental feelings – are `self'- inflicted. For example, when there is metta or dana or reflection on the teachings, there is no unpleasant feeling at all. Why do we have unpleasant feelings? Because of attachment to self and pleasant feelings. Also, remember that life only ever lasts a moment. All the past difficulties have gone....they're just an idea or fantasy now. By developing awareness, there is less and less clinging and aversion to what was experienced in the past and what will be experienced in the future. S: I'd like to see AliceInRealisticLand:)) I'll greatly look forward to chatting more to you on my return, Alice. Metta, Sarah p.s there were a lot of good reminders in the section on kamma in your post #47405. `Kamma is always just... – it is never angry or pleased,.... it is simply the law of cause and effect' also, I like this one `we are foolish if we grow angry and blame it when it burns us because we have made a mistake.' Oh and in your post #47470, `but for a seed to sprout, certain auxiliary causes such, as soil, rain etc are required. In the same way for a Kamma to produce an effect, several auxiliary causes such as circumstances, surroundings etc are required....' I think the reflections on kamma are always very beneficital. 48128 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:09pm Subject: Out of Topic, but related...Accept Me! balancing_life Hi EveryOne This is out of topic, but i would like to share it with you, as perhaps it has a connection about the problems, faced by my niece. Usually, when one of my internet friends send me a mail, i will click reply all, instead of reply to and my intention is just to motivate & inspire any of them, as i am the owner of a motivational & inspirational yahoogroup. The reason why i started this group...well, it's part of my reasons or ways, to improve my Karma, apart from sending in Buddhism lessons from the Mahindarama Temple. Anyway, this email message is of this person responding to me, is an insight to me and i am really shocked & surprised, at our teacher's attitude nowadays. With Metta :} AliceInOutOfTopicLand P/S - "Kia-Su" is a term coined by Singaporeans themselves, (this i have explained, as i do not want anybody to think that, i am demeaning them) as they are suppossedly to be in a "win & win" situation and not to lose anything to anybody, (meaning, they always want to be first in everything, like for example, first in line for the buffet lunch or dinner, want their kids to excel in everything, etc, and lots of other scenarios...there are several jokes about it and i will post it, if i find again in my office's outlook express mailbox) and it literally means scared (kia) of losing (su) in our Hokkien dialect. Malaysians have accepted the term "KiaSu" and it is also affecting them, themselves, as nowadays, the trend is just to have one or two kids, different in my generation & my parents generation, where families used have a minimum of 4 to a maximum of 12 children...so nothing but the best, for their precious kids, nowadays...hmmm, which reminds of another case, which i will tell you later in another email. FYI, do you know that the most suicide cases, comes from Japanese school kids as they cannot keep up with the pace of schoolwork and to most Japanese, it's very shameful not to live up to their parent's expectations...Singaporeans & Taiwanese students are catching up & are also doing the same, committing suicide, just to escape their misery in school. ------- Dear Alice, Thank you for the beautiful article, I have to print it and give it the teachers teaching my son. My hubby and I have been telling him that mistakes are gods way for one to learn and be wiser the next time but her still fret over it. Poor boy, he is in the Chinese medium school. They do not allow childern to make mistakes, things have to be right ........just wondering how the childern going to learn without mistakes!! He is so frightfull to make mistakes so in order to avoid trouble, they copy each others work by calling each other thru the phone daily!! What a way to survive this days........... the teachers must be nuts or kaisu ! Have a great day, tricia -----Original Message----- ACCEPT ME Accept me as I am I have no guarantee. A claim to perfection I have not. Perfect I cannot be. I, like you... am human. Prone to make mistakes. Failure is not a character flaw, Just a part of the human makeup. I live, I laugh and I also learn. My knowledge is incomplete. I am searching all the time, in waking hours as well as sleep. I have a long road to travel, as well as you do. We learn our lessons on the way. Wisdom we shall accrue. So please accept me as I am Because I am... Just me. No one like me in the world. That is my only guarantee. This is how I feel I have a heart, open it and see Please take care That's all I am, just me. Author Unknown 48129 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:28pm Subject: Re: [Dharma-Direct] from "balancing_life" balancing_life Hi Connie Why, thank you Connie and you are most welcome. Hope i got that story correct and Anguilima was just fulfilling his master's wish. Last time, i read in one of the motivational books, called "Black Heart...." or was it "Sun Tzu's", that said that if one is a soldier and was just fulfilling his duties as to killing enemies, then he is not sinful...i was wondering, in the case of Buddhism, would that be very bad for his Karma? Another time, i read in a Buddhism book that said that one man's father was a slaughter of pigs or cattle (cows & bulls) and this man dreamed that his father was suffering in Hell for that, but i forgot what advice was given to him to counteract that...perhaps transferance of merits? Peace & Namaste, :} AliceInReallyWonderingLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: dear sensibly grounded Alice, i like that finger-necklace, too. So much. Angie rushing headlong pursuing what he thought best between those two fields of merit and stopped, just that one finger-snap short of that terrible step into the crevice between the crushing mountains that would, rest assured, plunge him straight on to avici. thank you, connie 48130 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:37pm Subject: What is Right Livelihood ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this critical Right Livelihood ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. But what is Right Livelihood ? The 5-fold Definition of Right Livelihood: Earning a living Not by trading with any Living Beings. Earning a living Not by selling any Meat or Flesh. Earning a living Not by making nor selling any Weapons. Earning a living Not by dealing any Alcohol or Drugs . Earning a living Not by making nor selling any Poison. That is Right Livelihood! The Characterization of Right Livelihood: Any livelihood that neither involves any killing, injuring, wounding nor imprisoning of any living being, nor stealing, taking what is not given, nor cheating, any bribery nor corruption, nor lying, nor deceiving tricks nor use of false measures & weights, neither any sensual nor sexual abuse, neither use nor selling of alcohol nor intoxicating illegal drugs, that causes carelessness, neither by oneself, nor by getting others to do so, such is Right Livelihood for all lay people! The Explanation of Right Livelihood for Buddhist Monks & Nuns: Neither living nor receiving food by astrology, soothsaying, prediction of future events, nor by palmistry, geomancy, dream-reading, charms & spells, nor divinations, nor by any rituals, running errands nor messages, flattering, arranging marriages, funerals nor divorces, medical praxis, nor by producing art nor poetry, neither by disputation nor debate, this is Right Livelihood! Knowing right & wrong Livelihood as right & wrong Livelihood, is Right View. Awareness of presence of right & wrong Livelihood, is Right Awareness. Exchanging wrong Livelihood with right Livelihood, is Right Effort... Further study of Buddhist Right Livelihood (Samma-Ajiva): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ajivo.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48131 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: Objects of last javana cittas robmoult Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi all, > > So objects are (a) kamma, (b) kamma nimitta and (c) gati nimitta. > My question is, can they be both pannati and paramattha? I couldn't > find the answer in UP. Thanks. ===== If the object of the death-proximate cognitive process is kamma, then it is a past object, taken in by the mind door, it is a concept. If the object of the death-proximate cognitive process is kamma nimitta, then it may be either past object or present object and may be taken in by any of the six sense doors (a paramattha is taken in by one of the five sense doors and a concept is taken in by the mind door). There is some debate over gati nimitta. There is a case where a mind door process can take a paramattha as object (conformational mind door process, tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) but this does not apply in this case. You can read more details in Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma pp 223-224. Metta, Rob M :-) 48132 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Ven. Aggacitta made the bold statement to me, "After searching the > entire Pali cannon electronically for all instances of the word > samattha, I discovered that the Buddha never equated the term samattha > with jhana." Let us assume that he is correct. > Perhaps there are two functions of taking a specific object for > meditation. My personal meditation experience indicates that taking an > object supports the arising of calm / tranquility / one- pointedness (in > other words, samattha). However, the taking of an object does not uproot > defilements. It is what is done with the object that uproots > defilements." > > Hi Rob, > > I think the two functions would be jhana or insight and, at least > according to commentary, they would have different kinds of objects > (concept or reality). ===== I am going back to the Suttas, what the Buddha said, rather than rely on the commentary. Some interesting points: 1. In this Sutta, the Buddha links samattha (tranquility / concentration) with vipassana (insight) as a team; a "pair of swift messengers". 2. The Buddha does not equate samattha with jhana as the commentaries do. 3. The whole idea of "realities" and "concepts" does not come from the Buddha, it comes from the commentaries. ===== > > I agree that taking an object is "usually" supportive of calm but > doesn't in itself uproot defilements. However, wherever there is calm > there is sati. So I think there must be at least a small measure of > uprooting going on. ===== Agreed. Metta, Rob M :-) 48133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my favorite tune, to Tep. nilovg Hi Tep, you will understand that I was delighted with your post, touched by your kind words. op 24-07-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Kelvin is right, and I hereby ask you to kindly accept my apology > for "trespassing" on your turf (configuratively). >... If > you agree about next Saturday, I shall post the sutta (the on-line > version I have is an abstract, though) one day before the discussion > date (which is Saturday, 7/30). Fortunately, I have a Thai version that > can be used to fill in the missing detail. N: It is fine. I may delay reacting immediately, since Satruday is my day off. It does not matter. I could not find it with ATI. With Metta forum no success, the link did not work. Do you have Chulalokorn transl? I have Mahamakut and this always gives the Co together with it. I only have hardcover. The same with Co. to Breathing, two huge volumes. T: N: Can you quote me where I rejected a sutta or turned it around? > > Tep: Yes, I acn. But I am sorry if it may sound like an accusation. N: No problem at all. Perhaps I did not express myself clearly. It is time to put that straight. I would never reject any sutta, but I know there are different interpretations. Also, when I do not answer a mail, it does not mean I reject. Simply at times there is nothing further I can add and then I leave it. Like my correspondance with Howard, Larry or others. We understand each other. If we would keep on reacting to each others' mails, or thanking one another for the received mail, there would never be an end to Emails. And then on this forum! Nina. 48134 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? nilovg Dear Rob M, Thank you for your explanations. I would like to add a few things. op 24-07-2005 00:55 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) within the same > citta by: > - Root: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas > - Proximity / Contiguity: There is no separation in time or space > between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta > and cetasikas ----- N: Proximity / Contiguity this pertains to the condition, where the previous citta that has fallen away conditions the arising of the subsequent citta. That is why all experiences can be accumulated from citta to citta. That is why the force of kamma is accumulated so that it can produce result. We are in this cycle going on from citta to citta, no end until the attainment of arahatship and the dying-consciousness of the arahat has fallen away. This condition does not pertain to conascent dhammas, not to associated dhammas. -------- R: - Natural Decisive Support: Moha, together with greed or aversion, > motivate one to perform bad deeds ------ N: Or good deeds which keep us in the cycle. Akusala can condition kusala, but not at the same time. This may help us to understand that ignorance in DO also conditions kusala kamma. But here you speak of associated dhammas. --------- R: - Association: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas > through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling > away ____ N: A typo: you mean: a common object. ------- R: > - Presence / Non-Disappearance: The presence of moha allows the citta > and other cetasikas to arise > - Absence / Disappearance: When the first akusala javana citta falls > away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta > to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) N:Absence / Disappearance, yes. And this is also contiguity-condition. Thus, here we do not speak of moha conascent with citta and the other cetasikas. Nina. 48135 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? nilovg Hi Agrios, Rob M explained to you D.O. with many details. Perhaps I can add a little. In Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary, as I recently wrote about, you can find meanings of sankhara in different contexts. Sankhara dhammas are all conditioned dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. Sankharakkhandha, that you know , the cetasikas, except feeling and sańńaa. The translation of formations or activities may not be so clear. It is not an easy term. As Rob M said, cetana is the most prominent in forming the formed. It means, cetana as kusala kamma or akusala kamma is an activity par excellence, since it produces vipaaka. Kaaya sankhara, vaci sankhara mano sankhara: this has another meaning: the three doors of kamma. You can commit kamma through body, speech and mind. It will be confusing to bring this in the context of DO. You write: < I know there always be vedana, but I was sure DO is giving exact > moment > of vedana joining the stream - after phassa and not before.> N: As Rob explained, the teaching of D.O. is not teaching a specific order of the dhammas involved. Phassa conditions the conascent vedana in different ways. Vińńaana is vipaakacitta, not any citta. We should not think: here is a stream and cetasikas are waiting to join the stream. I know you do not mean it this way, but I know for some people many things can be interpreted wrongly. The D.O. is most complex and if we do not understand citta, cetasika and rupa in more detail and also the conditions for their arising, it is very hard to understand D.O. And what is more: if we do not realize through direct awareness and understanding the dhamma appearing now, it is very hard to understand DO. This may sound discouraging, I know. It seems we have to wait for ever. I am sure there are still many things that are not clear, the same for me. Nina. 48136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness nilovg Hi Rob M, As far as I understand, the commentaries do not point out matters in a way different from the suttas. Nina. op 24-07-2005 10:46 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > 2. The Buddha does not equate samattha with jhana as the commentaries > do. 48137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Hi Charles D, I understand your points. We can view kamma from many angles, and kamma is really the field of Buddhas. It may drive to madness if we try to trace which kamma produces which result. It is one of the unthinkables. op 23-07-2005 14:14 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > Nina said to Herman, >. In a way we possess kamma, but in the ultimate sense there is nobody who possesses kamma. > There are only conditioned phenomena arising and falling away. N: you do not find this helpful. There is a reason for it. We do not really understand vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing. We see or hear pleasant and unpleasant things, and the seeing and hearing are conditioned namas, produced by kamma. But at this moment we do not understand nama as nama and rupa as rupa so long as the first stage of insight has not been attained. The sotaapanna perfectly understands: in the ultimate sense there is nobody who possesses kamma. But this is not yet the understanding of ordinary worldlings. ------- Ch: For me, it is better to reflect on the characteristics of existence -- I have > been born so I am destine to suffer unpleasant experiences. This is just how > life is. -- And, with wisdom and luck, suffering due to many unpleasant > experiences will be avoided. ------- N: Yes, this is a way of viewing it. But alas we cannot avoid suffering. There is no luck, just conditions. Here the ultimate view, understanding conditioned dhammas, can help. With wisdom, yes, the development of right understanding is always beneficial. -------- Ch: Also the view that "I must receive the results of a deed done in a former life > (incarnation -previous birth from a woman's ... )" does not help me either. > However, if you view the incarnation as the re-occurrence of an event, trend > of thought, or feelings (e.g., memories) then this view does help me because > often I can trace which kamma produces which results, and thus deal > appropriately with the kamma to avoid more negative karma. ------- N: you could consider: why am I acting this way? Because also formerly I acted thus. I accumulated such tendencies, but these are harmful. Seeing the disadvantages of akusala helps to appreciate the development of kusala. But tracing which kamma produces which vipaka is impossible, kammas of so many past lives also produce results today. Nina. 48138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti nilovg Hi Howard, I understand what you mean as to functional reality. I was just reflecting on ultimate and conventional truth and realized how much I need to live with conventional truth. Then I saw your post and discussed the subject with Lodewijk. I see some concern in your post and this is not groundless. It is concern about people trying to live completely with nama and rupa and not being of this world. I think of such extremes as a girl who did not recognize her parents or who did not want to use her watch. Lodewijk thinks you are very much to the point. We live with conventional realities, or as you say, functional realities. But, he says, understanding can gradually be ripening, so that we know that in the final analysis there are nama and rupa. He said: I can add something. We can avoid this danger when awareness in daily life is completely natural. Perhaps this is a good subject to talk about. Even when chatting with someone else, there can be considering of nama and rupa in a splitsecond in between, and later on also direct awareness. Talking does not have to be distracting. This is not dumb luck. I like your expression dumb luck, it stays with me, it is challenging for me. What I heard, what I considered, the remarks by others, the questions, all this can be a condition for considering dhamma for a splitsecond, in the midst of daily activities. Dumb luck does not exist, only conditioning dhammas. You mean the same when you say that. You are often speaking about attention and the way you describe this is similar to what I think is sati, but you name it attention. There is a cetasika attention, manasikaara, and this can be right attention or wrong attention. The name does not matter, but knowing the characteristic is important. I think I should carefully read your posts and discern what you mean by the words you use. For example the word entity may be a difficult term that not everybody understands. I find it difficult. I gave you the example of hearing and thinking of a plane, and you said: also animals hear this. Very good, I like this remark, very good reminder which stays with me. There is hearing and when we notice this we may mistakenly take this for awareness. You would say: right attention to the object is necessary. Yes. This is true. Something else is necessary, not just noticing the hearing. What that something else is, we may denote with different words, but perhaps we mean the same. In the light of your post, it may interest you what Htoo just wrote: < At the time when he perceives 'this is hair' there is a mind. That mind or citta does arise and fall away. The idea of 'hair' is not groundless like 'proper name or personal name'. These do exist basic ruupa for hair. Those ruupa arise and fall away. There are origination of these citta and its arammana or object. They do not last long and they just dissolve or disappear soon. There are dissolution of these cittas and their objects.> Thus, the idea of hair and name giving, conventional ideas, are not groundless. But it is beneficial to know that also thinking about these are cittas thinking of objects and that these cittas arise and fall away. I know your qualms about object, but since the citta falls away there isn't a danger of an existing subject-object. They all go away. Nina. op 22-07-2005 22:35 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > To point out what I mean, there is something that I would call the > "functional reality" of pa~n~natti. Suppose we look out the window and "see" a > tree. > For reasons that I have outlined before, there is no such entity except as a > matter of convention. But that convention is not a groundless one. Our > "seeing" of the tree is a kind of experiential predictor. On the basis of > "seeing the > tree", should we take certain conventional actions of "approaching the tree", > "touching the tree", and "carefully examining its bark and leaves", there > will arise a series of (expected) paramattha dhammas. In that sense, the "seen > tree" had a sort of "reality" to it - a "functional reality". > > With metta, > Howard > Htoo writes: At the time when he perceives 'this is hair' there is a mind. That mind or citta does arise and fall away. The idea of 'hair' is not groundless like 'proper name or personal name'. These do exist basic ruupa for hair. Those ruupa arise and fall away. There are origination of these citta and its arammana or object. They do not last long and they just dissolve or disappear soon. There are dissolution of these cittas and their objects. 48139 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:50am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? robmoult Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Rob M (and Agrios) - > > You two are having a very interesting discussion on sankhara khandha > and citta. Your clear explanation of sankhara khandha shows your > clear understanding of the subject matter. > > Although I am not an Abhidhammika, yet the fundamentals of sankhara > khandha and citta are important for intellectual learning/understanding > of the Visuddhimagga (I bought the book). But I still am confused about > sankhata and sankhara and the Vism. does not help me much (I am not > blaming the book, though). Once Nina told me that sankhata was the > same as sankhara, I was confused but decided to drop the subject. > > Could you please explain why sankhata (conditioned dhamma) is the > same as sankhara, if I did not misinterpret Nina's words? By the way, is > sankhara not the same as sankhara khandha? ===== Here is the definition of sankhara from Nyanaponika's Buddhist Dictionary: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm sankhįra: This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished. (I) To its most frequent usages (s. foll. 1-4) the general term 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the context. This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to the passive state of 'having been formed' or to both. 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppįda, q.v.), sankhįra has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma (q.v.), i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetanį) of body (kįya-s.), speech (vacķ-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S. XII, 2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to (a) meritorious karma-formations (puńń'įbhisankhįra), (b) demeritorious k. (apuńń'abhisankhįra), (c) imperturbable k. (įneńj'įbhisankhįra), e.g. in S. XII, 51; D. 33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine- material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere. 2. The aforementioned three terms, kįya-, vacķ- and citta-s. are sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental- function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See nirodhasamįpatti. 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhįrakkhandha), and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to 'karmically forming' consciousness or not. See khandha, Tab. II. and S. XXII, 56, 79. 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata, q.v.) and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhįra aniccį ... dukkhį). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element (asankhata-dhįtu), i.e. Nibbįna (e.g. in sabbe dhammį anattį, "all things are without a self"). (II) Sankhįra also means sometimes 'volitional effort', e.g. in the formula of the roads to power (iddhi-pįda, q.v.); in sasankhįra- and asankhįra-parinibbįyķ (s. anįgįmķ, q.v.); and in the Abhidhamma terms asankhįrika- (q.v.) and sasankhįrika-citta, i.e. without effort = spontaneously, and with effort = prompted. As you can see, sankhara has many meanings; definition #1 is as part of DO, definition #3 is as a khanda and definition #4 equates it with sankhata. Metta, Rob M :-) 48140 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:57am Subject: Some remarks on Rupa jwromeijn Hallo all, During a Abhidhamma-retreat last week I have given a short talk about rupa, in relation to nama of course. Maybe it will interest some readers. When we as a westerner listen to the Abhidhamma, we try to understand it from our own frame of reference, many times we don't realize that we have that frame of reference that is another one of that of a Burmese monk now and still more than that of monks 2300 years ago. Some aspects of our average western frame of reference: - We have much scientific thinking and data in in head. We have much biological knowledge (how the conception of a new human beings works, that's not the eye but the brains that 'see' etc) - We have heard and read much of the mixture popular buddhism and New Age. So when information is given about the Four grear elements (pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo) , we think to recognize this, to know already about earth, water, fire and air, not realizing that there are differences. - We are (nearly all) educated in the duality matter vs mind, body vs soul, with greek roots and christian colored in which mind/soul is higher and (morally) better than matter/mind. And which two branches of science: natural science and philosophy (the german term 'Geisteswissenschaften' expresses it better). So when we hear about nama and rupa, we inplicit can think that's the same dichotomy and duality as nama and rupa; and that's not correct. This (and other) differences can give misunderstandings. Three examples: - As said above, name & rupa is not the same as mind vs matter. Otherwise than is christianity (of course I generalize) our moral problems are not rooted in the passions and instincts of our body but in nama (rupa is innocent). Nama is not 'higher' (more 'spiriutual' so to say) than rupa. - The Abhidhamma (and the Suttanta) is not a biological or psychological or physical textbook. Don't forget the Sutta about 'The silence of the Buddha': the (Abhi)Dahmma doesn't have a scientific aim but a soteriological one: it wants to liberate the reader.. Even if Abhidhamma nearly states the same as modern scientific theories: take care from the 'temptation' of those similarities. (It's a sociological remark but I think this is a temptation for a buddhist: the expression of superiority of buddhism as a reaction to western- christian-colonialistic expressions of superiority some centuries) - Sometimes 'rupa' is easyly tranlated as 'matter'. But 'form' or 'material qualities' is better, and I even prefer to say: '(by a human being) experienced material qualities.' Cf Nyanaponikas remark that the Dhamma had to be understood as a phenomenology and not as a ontology. Metta Joop 48141 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? dacostacharles Hi all, Some times there are thoughtless acts; therefore intention does not always come first. Though a lot of modern Buddhists like to say it does when it comes to karma, but IMHO karma is produced whether an act is intentional or unintentional. Unless you believe that the intent can be sub/unconscious. Mind is often defined as the 5 personality aggregates (form being replace by motivations), but IMHO form is apart of mind too therefore giving it 6 aggregates. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 16 July, 2005 07:38 Subject: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? Dear friend sarah abbott wrote: > "Intention always comes first' etc. Dhp1 > Usually I think 'mind' is used. Indeed. It is an experimental rendering: BTW: How is Mind defined? As which 5 things? : - ] 48142 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:06am Subject: Re: Mindfulness robmoult Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Was looking at > > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130037 > > Woodward's "Manual of a Mystic" (Yogavachara) > > the practice of samadhi and the jhanas. > > << > > This book is not part of the Pali Canon, though there is some > > correspondence between the methods described here and those found > in > > Visuddhimagga and other parts of the Pali Canon, with, as the > editor, Mrs. > > C.A.F. Rhys Davids, admits, "certain discrepancies." > > >> > > ===== > RobM: > I am focusing on the Suttas, the words of the Buddha. The > Visuddhimagga and the Yogavacara may be part of the Pali cannon > (depending on how broadly the term is used), but they are certainly > not the word of the Buddha. > ===== I did some more digging. I have seen the Yogavachara at the bookstore and thumbed through before putting it back on the shelf (pretty far down my reading list :-) ). Your paryiatti link, indicates that it is an 18th century book. This certainly excludes it from the Pali Canon definition. Metta, Rob M :-) 48143 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? robmoult Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > > Above, I have given the sankhara of sankhara (cetana / volition / > > kamma in this context): > > Lost. I do not understand this sentence above :( > ===== Me either, I have no idea what I was writing :-) ===== > > I was thinking along this way: > no matter what citta arises, but if arises with avija(moha) as its > cetasika, another stream of cetasikas (called sankhara) will arise as > well to join and form precondition for next step of DO - arising of > vinnana. ===== Sorry Agrios, citta (by this I mean vinnana, not mental state), arises together with its associated mental factors (cetasikas, including contact, volition and others; sometimes with avijja / moha). Citta falls away with its associated mental factors as well. DO is a "big picture" causual relationshop showing how we are bound to samsara. According to the commentary, the twelve stages span three lifetimes. As with modern science, one needs a different set of tools to explain sub-atomic reactions as are used to explore the life of the universe. At some points there is some overlap, but in general, it is easier (especially at the beginning) to keep the two separate... knowing full well that they must merge at some point (my long message shows the merging). ===== > I was thinking, only certain cetasikas out from 50 sankharas will > join, > depending on already arisen cetasikas or maybe other conditions. > > I would never think they all arise at the same moment. :) > I know there always be vedana, but I was sure DO is giving exact > moment > of vedana joining the stream - after phassa and not before. > Metta, Rob M :-) 48144 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: Mindfulness robmoult --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > ---------------------- > RM: > This Sutta starts with a monk asking four fellow monks the way > to purify one's vision and getting four different answers. > ----------------------- > > You might be right, but it seems to me that he got one answer four > different ways. I think "the six media of sense contact" "the five > khandhas" "the four great elements" and "whatever arises" all > describe the same thing. > ===== Ken H, it is difficult to describe how happy your words make me feel. I feel overjoyed that we may have found enough common ground that you could write, "You may be right...". Sarah reported the discussion that she, Jon and I had in Hong Kong recently. In that discussion, I said that I sincerely wanted to find a way of bridging the gap between our perspectives. ===== > ----------------------- > RM: > The first monk advises observing the six media of sense > contact. > The second monk advises observing the five clinging aggregates. > The third monk advises observing the four great elements > and the fourth monk advocates "choiceless awareness" (observing > whatever arises). > > The Buddha makes the important point that, according to one's > accumulations, one can purify one's vision by different techniques > but following the same principle (seeing things as they truly are). > Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of DSG), is one > approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid approach! > ----------------------- > > I would like you to explain how any of those answers amounts > to "taking primary objects." ===== If one is focusing on "the six media of sense contact" or "the five clinging aggregates" or "the four great elements", then this to me implies a purposely directed concentration (as opposed to the fourth monk who advocates choiceless awareness). Metta, Rob M :-) 48145 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 dacostacharles Hi Nina, I have to ask, when you speak of "... kammas of so many past lives also produce results today ..." are you translating past lives as past incarnation into a mother's womb? If yes then you are right, it is a bit much to even realize the events of a previous existence (impossible to consider something unrealized). If no then unraveling the ball of events and results is a goal of wisdom (insight into karmic events). This is a practice, meaning something we all should consider working on. I was taught there are big (gross) to little (subtle) karmas. Even worldlings can realize and break the cycle of gross karmas. Subtle karmas are one of the unthinkables. One reason is they are extremely relative or the effects are so small that they usually go unnoticed. I do not understand what you mean by the paragraph that begins and ends with: "We do not really understand vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing. ... But this is not yet the understanding of ordinary worldlings." Luck is a condition. I do not understand what you mean by the paragraph "... Seeing the disadvantages of akusala helps to appreciate the development of kusala. But tracing which kamma produces which vipaka is impossible, kammas of so many past lives also produce results today." To understand why a person acts a certain way is not harmful. In fact it is an important analysis for all teachers/gurus/Lamas/Priest/monks-(that attend to the laity), as well as individuals on any path of self-improvement (esp. the Dharma). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 24 July, 2005 12:15 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 Hi Charles D, I understand your points. We can view kamma from many angles, and kamma is really the field of Buddhas. It may drive to madness if we try to trace which kamma produces which result. It is one of the unthinkables. <...> 48146 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:39am Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) dacostacharles Hi Rob, Thanks for the info. BTW, you said, "Eradication of non-self is the end of the path for we "uninstructed worldlings" (i.e. when we become a Sotapanna). However, the true end of the path is Arahantship (no more rebirth)." Did you really mean: Eradication of "self" is the end of the path ..." ? If not, maybe you should define "non-self." CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: robmoult To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com <..> BTW, I like your recent posts regarding "non-self" being a target rather than a doctrine. I feel that it is both, but sometimes the doctrine aspect overshadows. Eradication of non-self is the end of the path for we "uninstructed worldlings" (i.e. when we become a Sotapanna). However, the true end of the path is Arahantship (no more rebirth). <...> 48147 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: my favorite tune, to Tep./ A mind-eye mirage buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - You wrote : N: you will understand that I was delighted with your post, touched by your kind words. T: Thank you for accepting my apology, Nina. Sometimes, I might not be as nice as I think I was. Like someone said, we are three persons at the same time. The first person is the one we think we are. The second person is the one we want the other people to see. The third person is the one the other people think they see. ------------------------- >Tep: ... If you agree about next Saturday, I shall post the sutta (the on- >line version I have is an abstract, though) one day before the discussion date (which is Saturday, 7/30). N: It is fine. I may delay reacting immediately, since Satruday is my day off. T: I probably misunderstood what you meant by your "day off". I thought you meant you were busy the other days of the week, and would be free to discuss the sutta only on your day off ! But if you meant the other way around, i.e. no online discussion on Saturday, then I can post the sutta today. Then we can discuss it whenever you want to. Sounds good? --------------------- N: Do you have Chulalokorn transl? I have Mahamakut and this always gives the Co together with it. I only have hardcover. The same with Co. to Breathing, two huge volumes. T: Yes, I do. Both versions on the same CD. I got the CD from Amara during the short period of time I was in her group. She was very kind to mail the CD to me via airmail. ---------------------- N: N: No problem at all. Perhaps I did not express myself clearly. It is time to put that straight. I would never reject any sutta, but I know there are different interpretations. Also, when I do not answer a mail, it does not mean I reject. Simply at times there is nothing further I can add and then I leave it. T: That is a great explanation, Nina. It is crystal clear to me now -- so the rejection I saw was just a mirage in my mind eye. I, therefore, will not let it happen again. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > you will understand that I was delighted with your post, touched by your > kind words. > op 24-07-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Kelvin is right, and I hereby ask you to kindly accept my apology > > for "trespassing" on your turf (configuratively). > >... If > > you agree about next Saturday, I shall post the sutta (the on-line > > version I have is an abstract, though) one day before the discussion > > date (which is Saturday, 7/30). Fortunately, I have a Thai version that > > can be used to fill in the missing detail. > N: It is fine. I may delay reacting immediately, since Satruday is my day > off. It does not matter. I could not find it with ATI. With Metta forum no > success, the link did not work. (snipped) 48148 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Brief Argument for the "Functional Reality" of Pa~n~natti upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/24/05 6:15:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I understand what you mean as to functional reality. ======================= Yes, I believe you do. And I find that there is nothing in your post that I disagree with. I view well grounded pa~n~natti that have "functional reality" to not be things-in-themselves, but to be mere projections/shadows reducible to paramattha dhammas. [Of course, I also see those paramattha dhammas, partless though they may be, and not sankharically concocted, as nonetheless lacking self-existence or own-being, and as being mere transient, dependent and (except by ignorant imagination) inseparable aspects of the experiential flow. BTW, by "entity" I mean an allegedly separate thing with its own independent, self-existent identity, core, and existence. And when paramattha dhammas are viewed as entities, sankharic concocting *is* at play.] Not only do I see you as understanding what I mean by "functional reality", Nina, but also as pretty much understanding me in general. I also greatly appreciate how seriously you take what I think and how you pay attention to things I have written - for example, the business about even animals hearing a plane. My best to Lodewijk! :-) With metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48149 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:32am Subject: Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 -- Reposted Abstract buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina {and all} - The online Kundaliya Sutta is only available in the abstract form: "In the Kundaliya Sutta, the wandering ascetic Kundaliya asks the Buddha what his objective is in practising the holy life. When the Buddha replies that he lives the holy life to enjoy the Fruits of the Path and the bliss of liberation by knowledge, the ascetic wants to know how to achieve these results. The Buddha advises him to cultivate and frequently practise restraint of the five senses. This will establish the threefold good conduct in deed, word and thought. When the threefold good conduct is cultivated and frequently practised, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness will be established. When the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are well established, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment will be developed. When the Seven Factors of Enlightenment are developed and frequently applied, the. Fruits of the Path and liberation by knowledge will be achieved." This abstract version of the Kundaliya Sutta may be found at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/guide-tipitaka/guidetipitaka- 06.htm Sarah's message #44565 also gives a summary of the discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin . In the Useful Post there is a list of other discussions prior to April 2005 on "guarding the senses". Guarding the Senses, 26440, 26476, 26500, 30342, 30605, 31015, 33248, 35022, 35169, 39599, 40128, 42924, 44565 I am going to review the Thai version so that I'll be ready for the upcoming discussion with you. With appreciation and respect, Tep ===== 48150 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? buddhistmedi... Dear Rob M - Thank you for the reference you gave below with a short comment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Rob M (and Agrios) - > > > > You two are having a very interesting discussion on sankhara > khandha and citta. Your clear explanation of sankhara khandha shows your clear understanding of the subject matter. > > > > Although I am not an Abhidhammika, yet the fundamentals of sankhara khandha and citta are important for intellectual > learning/understanding of the Visuddhimagga (I bought the book). But I still am confused about sankhata and sankhara and the Vism. does not help me much (I am not blaming the book, though). Once Nina told me that sankhata was the same as sankhara, I was confused but decided to drop the subject. > > Could you please explain why sankhata (conditioned dhamma) is the same as sankhara, if I did not misinterpret Nina's words? By the > way, is sankhara not the same as sankhara khandha? > > ===== > > Here is the definition of sankhara from Nyanaponika's Buddhist > Dictionary: > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm > > sankhįra: This term has, according to its context, different shades > of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished. > > (I) To its most frequent usages (s. foll. 1-4) the general > term 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by > the context. This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to > the passive state of 'having been formed' or to both. > > 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, > (paticcasamuppįda, q.v.), sankhįra has the active aspect, 'forming, > and signifies karma (q.v.), i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional > activity (cetanį) of body (kįya-s.), speech (vacķ-s.) or mind (citta- > or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S. XII, 2, 27. For s. in > this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. > In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to > (a) meritorious karma-formations (puńń'įbhisankhįra), (b) > demeritorious k. (apuńń'abhisankhįra), (c) imperturbable k. > (įneńj'įbhisankhįra), e.g. in S. XII, 51; D. 33. This threefold > division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the > meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine- > material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, > and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere. > > 2. The aforementioned three terms, kįya-, vacķ- and citta-s. are > sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily > function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal > function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental- > function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See > nirodhasamįpatti. > > 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhįrakkhandha), and > includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to 'karmically > forming' consciousness or not. See khandha, Tab. II. and S. XXII, 56, > 79. > > 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata, q.v.) > and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all > phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well- known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhįra aniccį ... dukkhį). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element (asankhata-dhįtu), i.e. Nibbįna (e.g. in sabbe dhammį anatt į, "all things are without a self"). > > (II) Sankhįra also means sometimes 'volitional effort', e.g. in the > formula of the roads to power (iddhi-pįda, q.v.); in sasankhįra- and > asankhįra-parinibbįyķ (s. anįgįmķ, q.v.); and in the Abhidhamma terms > asankhįrika- (q.v.) and sasankhįrika-citta, i.e. without effort = > spontaneously, and with effort = prompted. > > > > As you can see, sankhara has many meanings; definition #1 is as part of DO, definition #3 is as a khanda and definition #4 equates it with > sankhata. > Tep: The many definitions of sankhara and the dumping of everything in the world, so to speak, into sankhara are the reason why they are confusing to me. The original confusion created by Arariya Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga is unfortunately inherited and faithfully transferred over to Nyanatiloka Dictionary . Respectfully, Tep ========= 48151 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > > > > > Although I am not an Abhidhammika, yet the fundamentals of > sankhara khandha and citta are important for intellectual > > learning/understanding of the Visuddhimagga (I bought the book). > But I still am confused about sankhata and sankhara and the Vism. > does not help me much (I am not blaming the book, though). ----------------- > Tep: The many definitions of sankhara and the dumping of everything > in the world, so to speak, into sankhara are the reason why they are > confusing to me. The original confusion created by Arariya > Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga is unfortunately inherited and > faithfully transferred over to Nyanatiloka Dictionary . ____________ Dear Tep, I accept that you are not blaming the Visuddhimagga, just wondering how you would phrase it if you did think there was any fault (with the Vis.)? Robertk 48152 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Tep) - In a message dated 7/24/05 10:55:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Tep, I accept that you are not blaming the Visuddhimagga, just wondering how you would phrase it if you did think there was any fault (with the Vis.)? Robertk ===================== LOL! :-)) With good-humored metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48153 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:30am Subject: Re: [Dharma-Direct] from "balancing_life" nichiconn hi, Alice, I read a story where a son promised his dying father he would have nothing to do with a certain book but he ended up, as the king's calligrapher, copying down the title & there was said to be such meritorious power in that act, that the father & his companions were all released from hell. The father's sin, btw, had been his disregard of that book. This would seem a good thing for those hellguys, but for the son, while he may have looked good for saving the others had anyone known, it was just another self-serving act: broken promise or broken head? Angulimala, too. Master Lobha-As-Self was his teacher. You got that right: "As you wish, Sire!" Your soldiers are in lobha's service, too. There've been some discussions about this, though... dropping bombs and such. What makes it a killing? Another strand to toss in the bowl, this one taken from the appendix to Points of Controversy, Note 12 on "Space and Time": << The laws or principle discernible in these mental continua of the Chitta-niyaama are, according to Buddhist philosophy, five of the twenty-four casual relations (paccayaa), to wit, 'contiguity', immediate contiguity (in time), absence, abeyance, sufficing condition. Explained without such technicalities, the past state, albeit it is absent, gone, has become wrought up into its immediate successor, the present state, as a new whole. These five are compared to the five strands of a thread on which are strung the pearls of a necklace {1}. But each indivisible whole was real only while it lasted. 1} Cf. , p42; Mrs. Rh. D., , 1914, p. 194 f. We might wear it with this footnote from p201: <> peace, connie 48154 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/23/05 8:36:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: 2]Some quirky readings of this have turned anatta into "There is no self that can do anything" and "There is no self that can control anything". ============================== I agree that saying that there is no control in the sense of no possibility of exerting volitional influence is an error. However, it *is* true, I believe, that control is an element of what is meant by a personal self and that the lack of full control (in the sense that merely wishing something to be a certain way is effective) is an argument used to show there is no personal self. For example, from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) there is the following: _________________________ Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' "Feeling is not self... "Perception is not self... "[Mental] fabrications are not self... "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' --------------------------------------------- =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48155 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: Hi RobM and Tep, find some of my observations on the subject: [...] > > sankhįra: This term has, according to its context, different shades > of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished. > > (I) To its most frequent usages (s. foll. 1-4) the general > term 'formation' may be applied, [...] > > 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, > (paticcasamuppįda, q.v.), sankhįra has the active aspect, 'forming, > and signifies karma (q.v.), i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional > activity (cetanį) of body (kįya-s.), speech (vacķ-s.) or mind (citta- > or mano-s.). [...] > 2. The aforementioned three terms, kįya-, vacķ- and citta-s. are > sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily > function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal > function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental- > function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See > nirodhasamįpatti. > 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhįrakkhandha), and > includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to 'karmically > forming' consciousness or not. [...] > 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata, q.v .) > and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all > phenomena of existence. [...] > (II) Sankhįra also means sometimes 'volitional effort', e.g. in the > formula of the roads to power (iddhi-pįda, q.v.); in sasankhįra- and > asankhįra-parinibbįyķ (s. anįgįmķ, q.v.); and in the Abhidhamma terms > asankhįrika- (q.v.) and sasankhįrika-citta, i.e. without effort = > spontaneously, and with effort = prompted. > [...] volitional effort is nice. But it is funny to me, how author of this dictionary is avoiding sankhara as "preparation" or "initiations". It is more funny, when one checks this word in pali dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:13854./ projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ or if one checks Suttas. In Cula Vedalla Sutta " Why are directed thought and evaluation verbal fabrications? [...] "HAVING FIRST DIRECTED one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought and evaluation are verbal fabrications. Well it just doesn't make sense. Does it? Unless sankharas are preparations, initiations, it dosen't make sense to me. I am the last person to have opinion on any english word, but formations are just wrong word used here. To form, things have to be already in place. Sankharas are not that. It clearly is cetana, but not as formation, but as an initiation. Having been initiated, thing can start forming. metta, Agrios 48156 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK (also, Rob M, Howard) - You wrote: > I accept that you are not blaming the Visuddhimagga, just wondering > how you would phrase it if you did think there was any fault (with > the Vis.)? > Robertk How can I blame Acariya Buddhaghosa for my own inadequate panna? The confusion in the book might be just a mirage to me who has an imperfect vision. You may help me eliminate the mirage by means of a wise explanation, given that the book is crystally clear to you. Then you can reap the benefits of your kusala action at the same time. Sincerely, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I am not an Abhidhammika, yet the fundamentals of > > sankhara khandha and citta are important for intellectual > > > learning/understanding of the Visuddhimagga (I bought the > book). > > But I still am confused about sankhata and sankhara and the > Vism. > > does not help me much (I am not blaming the book, though). > ----------------- > > Tep: The many definitions of sankhara and the dumping of > everything > > in the world, so to speak, into sankhara are the reason why they > are > > confusing to me. The original confusion created by Arariya > > Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga is unfortunately inherited and > > faithfully transferred over to Nyanatiloka Dictionary . > > ____________ > Dear Tep, 48157 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:37am Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone? buddhistmedi... Hi, Agrios {Attn. Rob M, RobertK, and other DSG friends} - I am glad that I was not the only one who had been confused, Your post below is an evidence that my mirage may not be totally due to a vision fault. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > (snipped)> > volitional effort is nice. > But it is funny to me, how author of this dictionary is avoiding > sankhara as "preparation" or "initiations". > It is more funny, when one checks this word in pali dictionary > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:13854./ > projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ > > or if one checks Suttas. > In Cula Vedalla Sutta > > " Why are directed thought and evaluation verbal fabrications? > [...] > "HAVING FIRST DIRECTED one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. > That's why directed thought and evaluation are verbal fabrications. > > Well it just doesn't make sense. Does it? > Unless sankharas are preparations, initiations, it dosen't > make sense to me. I am the last person to have opinion on any > english word, but formations are just wrong word used here. > > To form, things have to be already in place. Sankharas are not > that. It clearly is cetana, but not as formation, but as an > initiation. Having been initiated, thing can start forming. > Tep: Let me add another background information for your study. From MN 44 : ( Here fabrications are equivalent to formations) "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." "But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?" "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." "But why are in-&-out breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?" "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." Warm regards, Tep ======= 48158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg]attention Chris. Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 - nilovg Hi Tep and Christine, thank you. I shall start a little at a time, quotung sutta phrases along with the Co. It would be good if Christine finds a version on line, somehow she may manage. Yes, my day off is my day off from computer work, a day for walking. Computer is every working day. Nina. op 24-07-2005 16:32 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > The online Kundaliya Sutta is only available in the abstract form: > > "In the Kundaliya Sutta, the wandering ascetic Kundaliya asks the > Buddha what his objective is in practising the holy life. 48159 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness nilovg Hi Rob M and Ken H, this is interesting. All this is easier to understand if we work with very concrete examples. Good for me to discuss, it helps bhaavana, and I mean more understanding, for me. And, as Kom once said shouldn't we get as much help as we can? See below for my thoughts. op 24-07-2005 15:40 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > If one is focusing on "the six media of sense contact" or "the five > clinging aggregates" or "the four great elements", then this to me > implies a purposely directed concentration (as opposed to the fourth > monk who advocates choiceless awareness). ---- N: We can also summarize as: the khandhas, the aayatanas, the elements. In short: nama and rupa, in whichever way they may be classified. My neighbours up are very noisy, there is hearing, sound, aversion. How could I select what appears? Impossible. It depends on kamma what kind of hearing arises, pleasant or unpleasant. Aversion arises very soon after the hearing. I am impatient, I have accumulated this. I also accumulated hearing Dhamma, and depending on conditions (not dumb luck) there may someytimes be a degree of understanding of one dhamma at a time. This understanding is accompanied by sati, but it is sati stemming from listening, not yet sati of the level of satipatthana which is direct awareness. But one gets used to different characteristics of smelling, flavour, etc. and in this way understanding can grow of the dhammas that appear. Nobody can make them appear. We have no choice, true. The term choiceless awareness seems to suggets that there are different kinds of awarenesses. Sati is not focussing, but there is samadhi also that focusses on one object, by conditions. There is attention, yoniso manaasikara. There is confidence in the benefit of understanding. There is volition: in this case kusala kamma or cetanaa. I prefer the word volition to intention, intention is so loaded. it seems to suggest a self who is trying with attachment. Thus, many sobhana cetasikas are cooperating and it is hard to pinpoint which is which. It helps to know that the object of sati and pannńaa is not the neighbours children, but that it is nama and rupa. Thinking about these children is nama which thinks. I cannot help akusala thinking, I do not select it. Gradually it can be learnt to think with wise attention. For some people hardness may appear more often, for others sound. This depends on an individual's inclination. There are many words that can describe sati: heedfulness, non-forgetfulness, wakefulness, alertness, composedness. Sometimes it seems that we are asleep, very thoughtless, going about our cores. We think of persons, events, situations. But sometimes there is a moment of wakefulness: the characteristic of sound may appear without thinking of sound of the dog, or heat without thinking of it as the heat of the water I touch. In this way we can learn the different between sati and forgetfulness don' t you think? Here are just a few thoughts, Nina. 48160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some remarks on Rupa nilovg Hi Joop, thank you. What I highlighted below I found especially a good remark. For some people it is a trap. Nina. op 24-07-2005 12:57 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > The Abhidhamma (and the Suttanta) is not a biological or > psychological or physical textbook. Don't forget the Sutta about 'The > silence of the Buddha': the (Abhi)Dahmma doesn't have a scientific > aim but a soteriological one: it wants to liberate the reader.. Even > if Abhidhamma nearly states the same as modern scientific theories: > take care from the 'temptation' of those similarities. 48161 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) robmoult Hi Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Thanks for the info. > > BTW, you said, "Eradication of non-self is the end of the path for we "uninstructed worldlings" (i.e. when we become a Sotapanna). However, the true end of the path is Arahantship (no more rebirth)." > > Did you really mean: Eradication of "self" is the end of the path ..." ? If not, maybe you should define "non-self." ===== Oops, sorry for my typo :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 48162 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Carita robmoult Hi Phil (and all), Over dinner, I mentioned carita. The topic has not been mentioned often enough to make it into the "Useful Posts", so here is a brief explanation: Carita means "nature", "character", "habitual conduct", "traits" or "inbuilt tendencies". Carita is a predominant nature in one's behavioral pattern. Those who had accumulated good traits are blessed with a good mentality in this present life. It is difficult to tame the bad minds of those had amassed bad traits in past lives. It is true that we can harness our bad predisposition by associating with the wise but when we are parted from the wise, we usually give in to the bad habits accumulated from the countless past existences. We lose our morality when not in the company of the virtuous just as molten metal hardens when deprived of heat. Even if you enclose the tail of a dog in a cylinder softening it with oil for twenty years, with a view to straighten it, you will find efforts in vain once the cylinder is removed. The tail will be as curved as it was. Habits strongly and rigidly conform to one's characteristics. A person with bad habits will be mean and base in words and deeds. Even when the noble, the wise help him to a high status he will occasionally expose his bad carita (characteristics or traits). He cannot get rid of his rooted habits. Therefore it is important to examine one's own carita and of others associated with one. Carita is of six types: - Raga-carita (the greedy or passionate nature) - Dosa-carita (the angry nature) - Moha-carita (the deluded nature) - Saddha-carita (the faithful nature) - Buddhi-carita (the intelligent nature) - Vitakka-carita (the ruminating or pondering nature) A person may have one, two or three of these caritas. How to Judge a Person's Carita ============================== One can generally identify a person's carita by watching his gestures and movements, his style of living, the food he likes and his behavioural pattern. Persons with raga-carita and those with saddha- carita display common characteristics. Individuals with dosa-carita and those with buddhi-carita are similar in nature. Persons with moha- carita and those with vitakka-carita are also similar. Persons with Raga-carita and Saddha-carita ========================================== These people are usually gentle and polite. They are generally clean, neat and tidy. They prefer sweet, aromatic and tender food. The one with raga-carita, the lustful one, has attachment to five sensual pleasures. He is wily, cunning, proud and greedy. The one with saddha- carita is more truthful and honest. He is generous in nature and is liberal in charity. He is more pious, reveres the Three Jewels and enjoys listening to Dhamma talks. Persons with Dosa-carita and Buddhi-carita ========================================== These people are usually slipshod and untidy. They love sour, salty, bitter or pungent food. A dosa dominant person is crude, untidy and undisciplined. He reacts violently to ugly things and unpleasant sounds. A buddhi dominant person is free from the evils of the dosa carita. He is ready to learn from the wise and is generally mindful. He is farsighted and fond of virtuous deeds. Persons with Moha-carita and Vitakka-carita =========================================== A moha based person is associated with ignorance, delusion and forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable of making his own judgments, so follows the opinion of others in denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and panna (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptic. He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Like moha-carita, the vitakka- carita person also lives in the way of uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time in vain. The Origin of Carita ==================== Carita distinguishes one person from another. People differ in outlook, attitude, habit and tendency. Why? In the previous existences if his deeds were mostly influenced by greed, then kamma and vipaka cause him to be raga dominant. If dosa was significant in his deeds in the past lives his tendency in the present existence would be one of dosa carita. If ignorance accompanied his kamma in the past lives, now the result will be a moha dominant person. If a person loved wisdom in the past and did meritorious deeds pertaining to panna, he will now be reborn as a buddhi carita person. In the same fashion, deeds accompanied by saddha and vitakka will correspondingly result in saddha carita and vitakka carita. Thus we can now see that past deeds are the root cause of present carita. We ought, therefore, to perform meritorious deeds accompanied by saddha and panna so as to acquire good caritas in the next existences. Vasana (Tendency Continues Life after Life) =========================================== Predisposition plays a role in a person's life, past or present. Tendency to proliferate bad habits in promoted by kilesa (mental defilement). Vasana based on morality or good deeds is classified as Samma Chanda (wholesome wish). This vasana is inherent in the mind- continuum of all beings. Thus in your past kamma actions if you have cultivated greed along with them, your vasana will now be greedy in nature. If you do not reform this bad tendency in this existence, raga carita vasana will continue to dominate you in your future births as well. Dosa, moha, and vitakka characters also, will continue to dominate likewise. If you are endowed with panna carita now and if you cultivate wisdom continually, this tendency will produce its own result here and hereafter. You will be reborn a person with panna in forthcoming existences. If you had resolved for the attainment of Buddhahood, you can, be virtue of your panna carita vasana, achieve this supreme goal with panna predominant, panna dhika. If you had resolved to become a chief disciple, you may become one like the Venerable Sariputta, second only to the Buddha in wisdom through wisdom based good deeds in the series of past existences. Therefore it is of paramount importance that we abstain from duccarita in this life, to develop a virtuous noble carita in our next life. Those who have raga carita should as an antidote, mediate on unpleasant deplorable sense-objects such as decaying corpses. Then only tendency to lust will gradually fade away and disappear totally. As for dosa carita persons they should now practice metta bhavana (loving-kindness meditation) constantly; metta is the cool element which can extinguish the flame of hatred. Moha carita persons should approach the wise and learned and clarify their delusions. And they should practice Anapana (inhalation-exhalation) meditation regularly. 'Only with such efforts will moha disappear in due course. Those who already possess good traits such as saddha and panna should try to develop these virtues further and further with appreciation and satisfaction. Metta, Rob M :-) 48163 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 christine_fo... Hello Nina, Tep, all, I have typed Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation below. I haven't had time to proof read, as I must leave for work, but will check it over this evening Oz time for any errors and omissions. Samyutta Nikaya V. The Great Book (Mahaavagga) 46. Bojjha.ngasa.myutta 6 (6) Ku.n.daliya On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saaketa in the Deer Park at the A~njana Grove. Then the wanderer Ku.n.daliya approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, I am one who stays around monastic parks and frequents assemblies. After the meal, when I have finished my breakfast, it is my custom to roam and wander from park to park, from garden to garden. There I see some ascetics and Brahmins engaged in discussion for the benefits of rescuing their own theses in debate and condemning [the theses of others]. [note 67] But what is the benefit that Master Gotama lives for?" "Ku.n.daliya, the Tathaagata lives for the benefit and fruit of true knowledge and liberation." [note 68] "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated fulfil true knowledge and liberation?" "The seven factors of enlightenment, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?" "The four establishments of mindfulness, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. "And how, Ku.n.daliya, is restraint of the sense faculties developed and cultivated so that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. His body is steady ad his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. But having seen a disagreeable form with the eye, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. [note 69]. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. "Further, Ku.n.daliya, having heard an agreeable sound with the ear … having smelt an agreeable odour with the nose … having savoured an agreeable taste with the tongue … having felt an agreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. But having cognised a disagreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. "When Ku.n.daliya, after he has seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and disagreeable forms; when, after he has heard a sound with the ear … smelt an odour with the nose … savoured a taste with the tongue … felt a tactile object with the body … cognised a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena, then his restraint of the sense faculties has been developed and cultivated in such a way that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the three kinds of good conduct developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness. "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the for establishments of mindfulness developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. It is in this way that the four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the seven factors of enlightenment developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and liberation? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release …. He develops the enlightenment factor of equanimity, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way that the seven factors of enlightenment are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and liberation." When this was said, the wanderer Ku.n.daliya said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. I go for refuge to Master Gotama, and to the Dhamma, ad to the Bhikkhu Sa.ngha. From today let Master Gotama remember me a s a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Christine, > thank you. I shall start a little at a time, quotung sutta phrases along with the Co. It would be good if Christine finds a version on line, somehow she may manage. 48164 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: What to do? Herman egberdina Hi Kelvin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I think the important thing is consequence anatta. Obviously you > wouldn't be a fan of "choiceless observation". What should we do and > what can we do from your perspective according to what Buddha taught? > Purely out of interest, I would be very interested to read why you would think that I wouldn't be a fan of choiceless awareness. I'm going to keep my communications brief for the next few days, because my tax is due before the end of the week. And I always leave it till the very end to even start on it :-) The Suttas are full of imperative uses of verbs. These are instructions as in "Do this" and "Don't do this". The use of the verb in this way can be refined by, amongst others, the use of the active voice and the reflective voice. The active voice is used to denote that the consequence of the action flows to something other than the doer, the reflective voice indicates that the consequence flows to the doer. The reflective voice implies that the doer has the ability to do the action. Here I say in one moment that it's going to be short, next thing you know you get a lecture on grammar :-) Anyway, the Suttas are full of imperatives. There are also many imperatives absent from the Suttas which yet form the staple diet of many a devout Buddhist. It is well worth the time to discover which imperatives come from the mouth of the Buddha, and which don't. Pariyatti is unheard of in the suttas, for example, but rates highly in Ven Buddhagosa's view. Hope this suffices for the time being Kind Regards Herman > - kel > > > Anatta2 is not found in the suttas, though it is promulgated widely > as > > a law of the universe. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. 48165 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self corvus121 Hi all Further to my post #48123, I have re-read the advice given to Venerable Kaccanagotta at SN 12:15. I can't see how that advice is consistent with Herman's Anatta1 being the correct way to regard the anatta teaching. For one who sees the origin and cessation of the world with correct wisdom, there are no notions of existence or nonexistence in regard to the world [eg the self exists but is subject to change and stress]. Corrections welcome. Best wishes Andrew T 48166 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Andrew, Thank you for your words of praise. I'll have to put you on my Christmas card list :-) You have written much to give serious consideration, and Peter Costello wants his pound of flesh (tax). I hope to give a more decent reply later in the week. There are two comments below. I have snipped the rest for the sake of brevity only. > I will stick my neck out and propose an Anatta3: there is absolutely no > absolute self! How are: there is no absolute self and : there is absolutely no absolute self different? > For me, Anatta1 is rather obvious. The Buddha said that his Dhamma was > anything but obvious. This makes me more than a little unsettled > whenever I feel that Anatta1 might be the solution (which I still do > from time to time). > > In summary, I don't think we can attribute the radical nature of the > Anatta teaching to quirkiness or translators' flourish. It really > *is* "difficult to see". The Buddha wasn't kidding ... If one sees the reality of anatta1, they are doing prety well. There are literally billions of people in the world today who cling to some notion of an omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent or permanent being or essence. The Buddha's teaching is extremely radical to one convinced of the reality of a God or a soul. IMHO, The Buddha's teaching on anatta rejects atman, not beings or bodies. Kind Regards Herman 48167 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Howard, I was just re-reading last night that very same sutta you quote from. > 2]Some quirky readings of this have turned anatta into "There is no > self that can do anything" and "There is no self that can control > anything". > ============================== > I agree that saying that there is no control in the sense of no > possibility of exerting volitional influence is an error. However, it *is* true, I > believe, that control is an element of what is meant by a personal self and that > the lack of full control (in the sense that merely wishing something to be a > certain way is effective) is an argument used to show there is no personal self. > For example, from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) there is the > following: == Yes, merely wishing is not effective. Other things need to come into play, like resolution, determination. Ending of suffering seems so desirable, until one discovers that one has to relinquish the world :-) I would rather say that the above sutta is an argument against an absolute self, not a personal self. Consider the following from the Dhatuvibhangasutta (where the Buddha enumerates six elements, not four. Emphases are mine). "Bhikkhu, what is earth element? There is internal and external earth element. What is internal earth element? It is the hard INTERNAL, PERSONAL earth such as hair, on the head, on the body, nails, teeth, outer skin, flesh, veins, bones, bone marrow, kidney, heart, liver, lungs, spleen, intestines, larger intestines, belly, excreta and any other thing that is hard, internal, personal, and fixed as ONE'S OWN. This internal and external earth is the earth element. These are not me. I'm not in them. They are not self. This should be seen with right wisdom, as it really is and the mind should be nipped and detached from the earth element." Repeat for some of the other elements. The Buddha does not reject a distinction between what is internal and external. Rather, he posits it. But despite there being this internal, personal reality which is one's own, there is no absolute me, mine or I in it. (IMHO) == > _________________________ > Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend > itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this > form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not > self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard > to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' > "Feeling is not self... > "Perception is not self... > "[Mental] fabrications are not self... > "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this > consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard > to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be > thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends > itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to > consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' == What struck me on rereading this sutta was that each time the monks are asked "is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" they reply "Stressful". Now why they are so adamant about that I have no idea. Do you? Kind Regards Herman 48168 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 / Thank You, Chris buddhistmedi... Hi, Chris (and Nina) - Your typing quality is great. Even without proof reading, the manuscript is error free. Thank you very, very much Chris. Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nina, Tep, all, > > I have typed Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation below. I haven't had time > to proof read, as I must leave for work, but will check it over this > evening Oz time for any errors and omissions. > > Samyutta Nikaya V. The Great Book (Mahaavagga) 46. > Bojjha.ngasa.myutta 6 (6) Ku.n.daliya > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saaketa in the Deer Park at the A~njana Grove. Then the wanderer Ku.n.daliya > approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One: > > "Master Gotama, I am one who stays around monastic parks and > frequents assemblies. After the meal, when I have finished my > breakfast, it is my custom to roam and wander from park to park, > from garden to garden. There I see some ascetics and Brahmins > engaged in discussion for the benefits of rescuing their own theses > in debate and condemning [the theses of others]. [note 67] But what > is the benefit that Master Gotama lives for?" > "Ku.n.daliya, the Tathaagata lives for the benefit and fruit of > true knowledge and liberation." [note 68] > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated > fulfil true knowledge and liberation?" > "The seven factors of enlightenment, Ku.n.daliya, when developed > and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?" > "The four establishments of mindfulness, Ku.n.daliya, when > developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" > "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and > cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" > "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed > and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, is restraint of the sense faculties > developed and cultivated so that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct? > Here, Ku.n.daliya, having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a > bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate > lust for it. His body is steady ad his mind is steady, inwardly > well composed and well liberated. But having seen a disagreeable > form with the eye, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not > dejected, without ill will. [note 69]. > His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed > and well liberated. > "Further, Ku.n.daliya, having heard an agreeable sound with the > ear … having smelt an agreeable odour with the nose … having > savoured an agreeable taste with the tongue … having felt an agreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. But having cognised a disagreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. > "When Ku.n.daliya, after he has seen a form with the eye, a > bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well > composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and > disagreeable forms; when, after he has heard a sound with the ear > … smelt an odour with the nose … savoured a taste with the tongue > … felt a tactile object with the body … cognised a mental > phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both > agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena, then his restraint of > the sense faculties has been developed and cultivated in such a way > that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the three kinds of good conduct developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of > mindfulness? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having abandoned bodily > misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of > mindfulness. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the for establishments of mindfulness > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of > enlightenment? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating > the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, > having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. > He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … > phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. It is in this way that the four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of > enlightenment. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the seven factors of enlightenment > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and > liberation? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu develops the > enlightenment factor of mindfulness, which is based upon seclusion, > dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release …. He develops the > enlightenment factor of equanimity, which is based upon seclusion, > dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way > that the seven factors of enlightenment are developed and cultivated > so that they fulfil true knowledge and liberation." > When this was said, the wanderer Ku.n.daliya said to the Blessed > One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! > The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. I go for refuge to Master Gotama, and to the Dhamma, ad to the Bhikkhu Sa.ngha. From today let Master Gotama remember me a s a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Hi Tep and Christine, > > thank you. I shall start a little at a time, quotung sutta > phrases along with the Co. It would be good if Christine finds a > version on line, somehow she may manage. 48169 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:53pm Subject: Re: Carita robmoult Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil (and all), > > Over dinner, I mentioned carita. The topic has not been mentioned > often enough to make it into the "Useful Posts", so here is a brief > explanation: > > Carita means "nature", "character", "habitual conduct", "traits" > or "inbuilt tendencies". I have been asked off-line if carita is from the canon. "Carita" is not in the Tipitaka. It first appears (as far as I know) in the Vimuttimagga (The Path of Freedom) by the Arahant Upatissa, which (I believe) is from the 1st century. In the Vimuttimagga, in the chapter "Distinguishing of Behaviour", there are 14 caritas listed: - Raga - Dosa - Moha - Saddha - Buddhi - Vitakka - Raga-dosa - Raga-moha - Dosa-moha - Raga-dosa-moha - Saddha-buddhi - Saddha-vitakka - Buddhi-vitakka - Saddha-buddhi-vitakka Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga (which some consider to be an expanded version of the Vimuttimagga) lists only the first six (see Vism III.74 ff) arguing against the Vimuttimagga's expansion into combinations. The message that I wrote was a summary of Chapter 5 of the "other" Abhidhamma in Daily Life, the one written by Ashin Janakabhivamsa (also available for free download on-line). Metta, Rob M :-) 48170 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/24/05 7:07:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Hi all Further to my post #48123, I have re-read the advice given to Venerable Kaccanagotta at SN 12:15. I can't see how that advice is consistent with Herman's Anatta1 being the correct way to regard the anatta teaching. For one who sees the origin and cessation of the world with correct wisdom, there are no notions of existence or nonexistence in regard to the world [eg the self exists but is subject to change and stress]. Corrections welcome. Best wishes Andrew T ============================== As far as I'm concerned, the Buddha taught NO self, where the "self" of anything is meant to be a true, self-existent, lasting and unchanging identity or core or "soul". However, what is ruled out in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta is not any and all senses of existence and nonexistence, but two specific extremes: 1) Substantial self-existence of separate and independent "entities", and 2) Nihilistic nonexistence. These extremes are replaced by dependent existence, conditional existence, the middle-way mode of existence of "empty phenomena rolling on". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48171 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/24/05 7:44:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: What struck me on rereading this sutta was that each time the monks are asked "is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" they reply "Stressful". Now why they are so adamant about that I have no idea. Do you? ======================= Well, I think it is a matter of clinging. Our attachment to phenomena that don't remain is stressful - like trying to hold onto a moving car. Also, there is no (full) control over what does not remain, and we like to control things! I don't think that the impermanent nature of phenomena, itself, is enough for the phenomena to cause stress, but it is a condition, one of several, that lead to distress, making impermanence "stressful". Clearly not all instances of impermanence induce stress. The impermanence of despised phenomena is anything but stressful, but in that case the other phenomena requisite for stress, especially clinging, are missing from the stew. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48172 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.10 Rebirth (2) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: MAHINDA e-CORRESPONDENCE COURSE Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.10 : DOCTRINE OF REBIRTH (2) The Buddhist Doctrine of Rebirth should be differentiated from the teachings of transmigration and reincarnation of other religions. Buddhism denies the existence of a permanent, god-created soul or an unchanging entity that transmigrates from one life to another. In a single life, each thought moment flashes in and out, giving rise to its successive thoughts as it perishes. Strictly speaking, this momentary rise and fall of every thought is a birth and death. Thus even in a single life we undergo countless births and deaths every seconds. But because the mental process continues with the support of a single physical body, we regard the mind-body continuum as constituting a single life. What we ordinarily mean by death is the cessation of the body's vital functions. When the physical body loses its vitality it can no longer support the current of consciousness, the mental side of the process. But as long as there is a clinging to life, a desire to go on existing, the current of consciousness does not come to a stop with the body's loss of life. Driven by the thirst for more existence, spring again another thought moment with the support of a new physical body - one, which has just come into being. Thus rebirth takes place immediately after death. The kammicenergy, the potential resultant force from our previous action, speech and thought, carries itself into the new life leaving the memories and sense of identity behind most of the time. THE FOUR MODES OF BIRTH The four Modes of Births are:- 1. Egg-born creatures - Andaja, such as birds, snakes, etc. 2. Womb-born creatures - Jalabuja. All human beings, some earth- bound deities, and those animals that take their conception in mother's womb, belong to this class. 3. Moisture-born creatures - Samsedaja, such as certain insects that take moisture as material for their growth. 4. Creatures having spontaneous births - Opapatika. They are generally invisible to the naked eye. Conditioned by past they appear suddenly, independent of parents. Brahmas, Devas of heavenly realms, Petas (Hungry Ghost), and miserable ones who are subject to torments and sufferings in states of woe - Niraya (Hell) are included in this class. There are 31 Planes of Existence. They are:- (A) The Four States of Unhappiness - Duggati, viz., 1. Niraya - Hell, woeful states, which are temporary, but not everlasting. 2. Tiracchana Yoni - the animal Kingdom. 3. Peta Yoni - the plane of Petas, Hungry-ghost or ghost-beings. 4. Asura Yoni - the plane of Asura demons. (B) The Seven Happy States - Sugati, viz., 1. Manussa - the realm of human beings. 2. Six (6) Devalokas - heavenly realms. 3. Sixteen (16) Rupalokas- Realms of Form. 4. Four (4) Arupalokas- Formless Realms. HOW REBIRTH TAKES PLACE When the physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. The kammic energy can manifest itself in the form of an animal when we have no chance to develop a positive kammic force. This force, called craving, desire, volition, thirst to live, producing re-existence, which is called rebirth. To the dying man is presented a Kamma, Kamma Nimitta, or Gati Nimitta. By, Kamma is here meant some action of his whether good or bad. It may be either a meritorious or a de-meritorious Weighty Action - Garuka Kamma. These are so powerful that they totally eclipse all other actions and appear very vividly before the mental eye. If experience has afforded him nothing weighty, he may take for the object of his dying-thought a Kamma done immediately before death - Asanna Kamma. In the absence of an Asanna Kamma, a habitual meritorious or de- meritorious act (Acinna Kamma) is presented, such as stealing in the case of a robber, or the healing of the sick in the case of a good physician. Failing all these, some casual act, that is, one of the accumulative reserves of the endless past - Katatta Kamma, becomes the object of the dying thought. Kamma Nimitta is any sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, or idea which was obtained at the time of the commission of the Kamma, such as knives in the case of a butcher, patients in the case of a physician, an object of worship in the case of a devotee, etc. By Gati Nimitra is meant some sign of the place where one is destined to be reborn - an event that invariably happens to dying persons. When these indications of the future birth occur, if they are bad, they could be turned into good. This is done by influencing the thoughts of the dying man, so that his good thought may now act as the proximate Kamma and counteract the influence of the Reproductive Kamma, which would otherwise affect his subsequent birth. Taking for the object of the dying-thought one of the above, a thought process runs its course even if the death were an instantaneous one. By death is meant the ceasing of the psychophysical life of one's individual existence. Death takes place by the passing away of vitality - Ayu, heat - Usma and consciousness - Vinnana. The birth-process of the butterfly may be cited in illustration of this. It was first an egg, and then, it became a caterpillar. Later it developed into a chrysalis, and finally evolved into a butterfly. This process occurs in the course of one lifetime. The butterfly is neither the same as, nor totally different from, the caterpillar. Here too there is a flux of life or continuity. The transition of the flux is also instantaneous. There is no room for an intermediate state - Antara bhava where the "spirit" of the deceased person takes lodgement in a certain state until it finds a suitable place for its reincarnation. Rebirth takes place immediately, and there is no difference in time whether one is born in a heaven or in a state of misery, as an animal or as a human being. In the dying man's consciousness, there are three types of consciousness (vinnana) functioning at the moment of death: 1. Rebirth-linking consciousness (patisandhi-citta) 2. The current of passive consciousness or life-continuum (bhavanga) 3. Consciousness connecting the present life (cuti-citta) At the last thought moment, the rebirth-linking consciousness arises and having the three signs as its objects. The rebirth-linking consciousness remains in the course of cognition and then sinks down into bhavanga. At the end of the bhavanga the cuti-citta arises, disconnecting the present life and sink down into bhavanga. At this very moment comes the end of the present life. At the end of this bhavanga, another patisandhi-citta arises up in the next life and from this moment the new life begins. REBIRTH WITHOUT A SOUL Apart from the mind (nama) and matter (rupa) which constitute this so- called being, there is no immortal soul or an eternal ego which man is either gifted with or has obtained in a mysterious way from a mysterious Being or force. "Being" is only a concept used for conventional purposes. If nothing in the form of a spirit or soul passes from this life to the other, what is it that is reborn? In asking this question one takes for granted that there is something to be reborn. Rupa or matter is merely the manifestation of forces and qualities. They are the inter-related forces (Paramatthas), or fundamental units of matter. These Paramatthas are Pathavi, Apo, Tejo, and Vayo. Pathavi means the element of extension, the substratum of matter. Apo is the element of cohesion. Tejo is the element of heat. Vayo is the element of motion. The four essentials of matter are invariably combined with four derivatives, colour - Vanna, odour - Gandha, taste - Rasa and nutritive essence Oja. The four elements and the derivatives are inseparable and inter- related, but one element may preponderate over the other, for instance, the element of extension predominates in earth; cohesion in water, heat in fire, and motion in air. Mind, which is the most important part in the machinery of man, is also a compound of fleeting mental states. There are fifty-two such mental states. Vedana or sensation is one and Sanna or perception is another. The remaining fifty mental states are collectively called Sankharas or volitional activities. These immaterial states arise in a consciousness - Vinnana. Thus the so-called being is a complex compound of five Aggregate - Pancakkhandha - namely, Rupa or matter, Vedana or sensations, Sanna or perceptions, Sankhara or mental states, and Vinnana or consciousness, which are in state of constant flux. One's individuality is the combination of these five Aggregates. There is no permanent soul that resides in this so-called being. Birth is simply the arising of the Khandhas, the aggregates. Rebirth is the arising of the aggregates again and again. Just as the arising of a physical state is conditioned by a preceding state as its cause, even so the coming-into-being of this psychophysical life is conditioned by causes anterior to its birth. As one life-process is possible without a permanent thing passing from one thought-moment to another, a series of life-processes is possible without anything to transmigrate from one life to another. This body - to use conventional terms - dies transmitting its Kammic force to another without anything transmigrating from this life to the other. The future being there will be conditioned by the present Kamma here. The new being is neither absolutely the same as its predecessor - since the composition is not identical - nor entirely another being the same stream of Kammic energy. There is, therefore, a continuity of a particular life-flux; just that and nothing more. Questions 1. Why does Rebirth take place immediately? 2. What conditioned the formation of the five aggregates? Answers (Module 2.9) 1. What is the cause of Rebirth? Unsatisfied desire for existence and sensual pleasures rooted in Ignorance is the cause of rebirth. 2. What are the causes of Death? a. The exhaustion of the force of Reproductive b. The expiration of the life-term c. The simultaneous exhaustion of the Reproductive Kammic energy and the expiration of the life-term d. The action of a stronger Kamma _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 48173 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > How can I blame Acariya Buddhaghosa for my own inadequate > panna? The confusion in the book might be just a mirage to me who > has an imperfect vision. > > You may help me eliminate the mirage by means of a wise > explanation, given that the book is crystally clear to you. Then you can > reap the benefits of your kusala action at the same time. > >+++++++++++++ Dear Tep, I have never claimed that the Visuddhimagga or any part of the texts is crystal clear to me. They explain what life itself really is, and this is much harder to understand than trifling things like physics or other worldly matters. However I do not see any problems with the explanations of sankhara and am puzzled why you think a word should have the same meaning whatever the context is. Take the simple English word 'Book' and think of its meanings - Book a ticket to the concert.; 'Book him!, the police sargent said.; I read a book.; The accountant examined the books. NIna wrote to you that "[We need to know] nama and rupa in more detail and also the conditions for their arising, it is very hard to understand D.O. And what is more: if we do not realize through direct awareness and understanding the dhamma appearing now, it is very hard to understand DO." This is what is most important, otherwise the true meanings of sankhara will never be known. Do you accept now that there are really no beings, no Tep at all - that there are only elements arising and ceasing. If so then the way to practice is clear- investigate the elements as they arise here and now. Robertk 48174 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:17pm Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) jonoabb Hi Howard Many thanks for your congratulations. Retirement does indeed mark a stage in one's life, even though for me it does not mark the end of my working life. Last Friday was the big day, so this is day 3 now ;-)) Sorry for the short note, but we have a flight about to leave. Will speak again later. Jon --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 7/20/05 11:13:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Jon'll be ringing the bell for his retirement in the evening > which means the whole department and outsiders too are invited for free > drinks. > ============================ > Hearty congratulations and best wishes to Jon! When does he become > officially liberated? (And I'm not referring to vimutti! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard 48175 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:19pm Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) jonoabb Hi Chris Thanks for this. I think I agree with your predictiion! Jon --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah and Jon, > > Jon - may I add my congratulations to those of Howard? How wonderful > that you will soon have the time to be involved in personal priorities, > rather than the daily grind of public service administration. Though, > knowing Jon, he'll be even busier after retirement than before ... Sarah > - you may yet find yourself remembering 'the good ol' days' when *all* > he had to do was go to the Office and prepare Bills for the HK > Government. :-) > > May I confess to slight envy? :-) > > metta > Chris > > > >>> sarahprocterabbott@... 07/21/05 1:42 pm >>> > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Hearty congratulations and best wishes to Jon! When does he become > > > officially liberated? (And I'm not referring to vimutti! ;-)) > ... > S: ;-)) The latter would be more to the point. Seriously, he's been flat > out helping to get laws enacted and now writing hand-over reports and > also > being taken out to numerous lunches by colleagues....Officially > tomorrow, > after over 20 yrs with the Hong Kong government. However, he already > tells > me he'll need to be back in the office on the return from our trip to > sort > out his boxes of papers and so on, so it may just mean the monthly > payments stop:). > > He's hoping to continue doing some work in Hong Kong to help pay for all > these trips....but we'll see how it all pans out. He'll be busy as > usual, > I know. So any liberation? I'm not sure....see what he says. > > As always, I appreciate your sponaneous mudita when you hear anyone's > good > news, Howard. Anumodana in this or Sadhu x3. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== 48176 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 nilovg Hi Christine, thank you very much, that is most kind. You are so fast giving help. Appreciating, Nina. op 24-07-2005 23:46 schreef Christine Forsyth op christine_forsyth@...: > I have typed Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation below. 48177 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness kelvin_lwin Hi Nina, Coincidently I recently bought a headset that covers that whole ear for my mom to listen to dhamma mp3's on computer. It pretty much blocks outside noise. Now let's say you have such a headset and neighbor noise causes aversion usually. Is it a) better to keep observating the neighbor noise or b) put on the headset and possibly have less aversion. I would think there's equal amount of nama/rupa going on for both choices. How do you see this? - kel > My neighbours up are very noisy, there is hearing, sound, aversion. How > could I select what appears? Impossible. It depends on kamma what kind of > hearing arises, pleasant or unpleasant. Aversion arises very soon after the > hearing. I am impatient, I have accumulated this. I also accumulated hearing > Dhamma, and depending on conditions (not dumb luck) there may someytimes be > a degree of understanding of one dhamma at a time. 48178 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:14am Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Notes to this sutta - Re: Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 christine_fo... Hello Nina, Tep, all, Here are Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to Samyutta Nikaya V. The Great Book (Mahaavagga) 46.Bojjha.ngasa.myutta 6 (6) Ku.n.daliya ****************************** [note 67] Itivaadappamokkhaanisa.msa~n c eva katha.m kathente upaarambhaanisa.msa~n ca Woodward translates "debating on the profit of freedom from controversy and the profit of wrangling" (KS 5:60). Spk's explanation of the phrase here is not completely clear to me, but at MN I 133, 28-30 the Buddha uses the same terms to reproach certain monks who master the Dhamma upaarambhaanisa.msaa itivaadappamokkhaanisa.msaa. Ps II 106, 35-107,4 explains: "They master the Dhamma (intent on) the benefit of ascribing errors to their opponents' theses and on rescuing their own theses when their opponents ascribe errors to them." The stock Nikaaya description of debates provides a clear illustration of what is meant; see e.g. 22.3 (III 12, 5-13) and 56.9 (V 419, 5-12). [note 68] Vijjaavimuttiphalaanisa.mso ... Tathaagato viharati. Woodward translates vijjaavimutti as "release by knowledge," assuming the compound is a subordinate tappurisa, but the expression vijjaa ca vimutti ca (at V 52, 19) implies it is actually a subordinate dvanda. See too V 329, 9-16, where the seven enlightenment factors are said to fulfil two things, namely, vijjaavimutti. [note 69] The best reading is the one given by the lemmas of Spk (Se): na ma.nku hoti apatitthiinacitto adiinamaanaso abyaapannacetaso. Be and Ee misread the second term as appati.t.thitacitto whose meaning ("an unestablished mind") is exactly the opposite of what is required. Ap(p)atitthiina is the negative past participle of patitthiiyati ( Samyutta Nikaya V. The Great Book (Mahaavagga) 46. > Bojjha.ngasa.myutta 6 (6) Ku.n.daliya > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saaketa in the Deer Park at the A~njana Grove. Then the wanderer Ku.n.daliya > approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When > they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One: > > "Master Gotama, I am one who stays around monastic parks and > frequents assemblies. After the meal, when I have finished my > breakfast, it is my custom to roam and wander from park to park, > from garden to garden. There I see some ascetics and Brahmins > engaged in discussion for the benefits of rescuing their own theses in debate and condemning [the theses of others]. [note 67] But what is the benefit that Master Gotama lives for?" > "Ku.n.daliya, the Tathaagata lives for the benefit and fruit of > true knowledge and liberation." [note 68] > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated > fulfil true knowledge and liberation?" > "The seven factors of enlightenment, Ku.n.daliya, when developed > and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?" > "The four establishments of mindfulness, Ku.n.daliya, when > developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" > "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and > cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" > "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed > and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, is restraint of the sense faculties > developed and cultivated so that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct? > Here, Ku.n.daliya, having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a > bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate > lust for it. His body is steady ad his mind is steady, inwardly > well composed and well liberated. But having seen a disagreeable > form with the eye, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not > dejected, without ill will. [note 69]. > His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed > and well liberated. > "Further, Ku.n.daliya, having heard an agreeable sound with the > ear ... having smelt an agreeable odour with the nose … having > savoured an agreeable taste with the tongue … having felt an agreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. But having cognised a disagreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. > "When Ku.n.daliya, after he has seen a form with the eye, a > bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well > composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and > disagreeable forms; when, after he has heard a sound with the ear > … smelt an odour with the nose … savoured a taste with the tongue > … felt a tactile object with the body … cognised a mental > phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena, then his restraint of the sense faculties has been developed and cultivated in such a way that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the three kinds of good conduct > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and > cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the for establishments of mindfulness > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of > enlightenment? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating > the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, > having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. > He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, > having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. > It is in this way that the four establishments of mindfulness are > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of > enlightenment. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the seven factors of enlightenment > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and > liberation? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu develops the > enlightenment factor of mindfulness, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release …. He develops the enlightenment factor of equanimity, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way that the seven factors of enlightenment are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and liberation." > When this was said, the wanderer Ku.n.daliya said to the Blessed > One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! > The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. I go for refuge to Master Gotama, and to the Dhamma, and to the Bhikkhu Sa.ngha. From today let Master Gotama remember me a s a lay > follower who has gone for refuge for life." 48179 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness nilovg Hi Kel, I like your example. I would prefer the headset. This makes me laugh. Now let us analyse. We may plan to do this or that, go left or right, and don't we think it is me being the master of our life? We do not see that whatever we do is conditioned. Now I feel that we touch on a difficult subject: free will, fatalism, helplessness etc. There is no way out between such dilemmas if we keep on rationalizing, and humans are apt to do this. Let us listen to the Buddha: our sole task is developing more understanding of whatever dhamma appears. That keeps us on the right track. Otherwise we keep on doubting: should we, should we not? Maybe one day I complain and have aversion, maybe another day I am more patient. The most important is to understand. Understanding of the events of our life should be emphasized. And I should tell this myself! Thanks for bringing this up. You are right in saying: there's equal amount of nama/rupa going on for both choices. Nina. op 25-07-2005 09:15 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@...: . Is it a) better to keep > observating the neighbor noise or b) put on the headset and possibly > have less aversion. I would think there's equal amount of nama/rupa > going on for both choices. 48180 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06am Subject: Unintentional action! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Charles DaCosta wrote: >kamma is produced whether an act is intentional or unintentional. Buddha once was called to a blind arahat's hut, where some dead insects on the floor showed that this arahat had killed them while walking and forth... The other bhikkhus asked him how an arahat could kill? He answered that the blind arahat had not intentionally killed any insect, as he was blind and could thus not see them... Therefore: No Kamma is created by Unintentional Action! It is Kiriya = Neutral or functional or non-accumulating! Such action does not condition any future action or result! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu SamäVhita, Sri Lanka. <...> 48181 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 0:24am Subject: What is Right Effort ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this vital Right Effort ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. But what is Right Effort ? The 4-fold Definition of Right Effort: The effort to overcome already present detrimental mental states.. The effort to prevent future detrimental mental states from arising.. The effort to begin developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states.. The effort to maintain & perfect already arisen advantageous mental states.. That is Right Effort! The Characterization of Right Effort: Striving for replacing wrong view with right view is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong motivation with right motivation is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong speech with right speech is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong action with right action is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong livelihood with right livelihood is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong effort with right effort is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong awareness with right awareness is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong concentration w. right concentration is Right Effort! The Explanation of the 4 Right Efforts: The 4 right efforts are 1: Control 2: Overcoming 3: Development 4: Maintenance! What is the effort of Control? When seeing an object with the eye, one neither grasps after the whole object, nor any of it's details, thereby one strives to prevent bad, detrimental states, such as longing & misery, to flood in on one! One guards & controls the sense of sight and do similarly with the other senses... What is the effort of Overcoming? One does not accept any lust, hate or anger that has arisen, but leaves it instantly, dispels it, destroys it, & makes it vanish... What is the effort of Development? One develops the enlightenment-factor of awareness, of investigation, of energy, of joy, of tranquillity, of concentration, and the enlightenment-factor of equanimity based on solitude, detachment, and ceasing, which is leading to maturity & culmination of spiritual self-surrender... What is the effort of Maintenance? One dominated by desire maintains firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as a skeleton, or a corpse that is full of worms, bluish-black, full of holes, bloated, while one dominated by anger maintains firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as infinite friendliness, universal pity, mutual joy or well balanced equanimity... Thus knowing right & wrong Effort to be right & wrong Effort, is Right View. Awareness of presence of right & wrong Effort, is Right Awareness. Right Effort has the function of striving, exertion and endurance... Keep on keeping on! Never give up! Come again! Final is the Fruit! Further study of Buddhist Right Effort (Samma-Vayama): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vayamo.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 48182 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: What is Right Effort ... ??? rjkjp1 Dear Venerable Samahita, What is the pali word for 'motivation'? Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > What is this vital Right Effort ? > The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: > Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right > Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. > But what is Right Effort ? > > The 4-fold Definition of Right Effort: > The effort to overcome already present detrimental mental states.. > The effort to prevent future detrimental mental states from arising.. > The effort to begin developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states.. > The effort to maintain & perfect already arisen advantageous mental states.. > That is Right Effort! > > The Characterization of Right Effort: > Striving for replacing wrong view with right view is Right Effort! > Striving for replacing wrong motivation with right motivation is Right Effort! > Striving for replacing wrong speech with right speech is Right 48183 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Pe Maung Tin: Vism.XIV,174 Vism.XIV,175 nilovg Dear Connie, my Pali text has 18, but perhaps he personally does not count dosa in the end. Nina. op 24-07-2005 03:10 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > > I checked to make sure the 17 was not a typo and it is correct (well, it > is 'seventeen' in the book), but U Tin also has 18... let me back up a bit > and give more of his translation: 48184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heedfulness and the Five Faculties nilovg Hi Tep, heedfulness, mindfulness and the Co, you were quoting LV.40 Nandiya Sutta: ]>. All these things, also what the Co says will also appear when studying the Kundaliya sutta. Perhaps we save those points till then. Nina op 19-07-2005 21:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: Guarding mind with heedfulness is the same as developing sati with > sati and nana (knowledge) as stated in Breathing Treatise para 196: > > "Mindfulness is both the establishment (foundation) and the > mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he > contemplates the body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation > (Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body > as a body is said'." 48185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Hi Charles D, op 24-07-2005 13:34 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > I have to ask, when you speak of "... kammas of so many past lives also > produce results today ..." are you translating past lives as past incarnation > into a mother's womb? ------ N: I avoid the word incarnation or reincarnation. Seems to suggest one person traveling from life to life. And also: there are lives as ghosts or lives in heavenly planes. No womb. ------ Charles: If yes then you are right, it is a bit much to even realize the events of a > previous existence (impossible to consider something unrealized). If no then > unraveling the ball of events and results is a goal of wisdom (insight into > karmic events). This is a practice, meaning something we all should consider > working on. ----- N: Not so clear with yes and no. Insight does not know past kammas. That is the field of Buddhas. ----- Ch: I was taught there are big (gross) to little (subtle) karmas. Even worldlings > can realize and break the cycle of gross karmas. ------ N:: Perhaps you mean: abstainign from very bad deeds? But what about the past, it has happened already. Only an arahat can. And even he, before passing away, may still receive the most painful results. Read the Suttas. Moggallana for example. ------ > Ch: Subtle karmas are one of the unthinkables. One reason is they are extremely > relative or the effects are so small that they usually go unnoticed. ----- N: To try to find out which kamma, no matter gross or subtle, brings which result, is unthinkable. ------ Ch: > I do not understand what you mean by the paragraph that begins and ends with: > "We do not really understand vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing. ... But > this is not yet the understanding of ordinary worldlings." ------- N: We do not know seeing as just the experience of visible object. Thinking follows so closely, and thus we confuse seeing and thinking. When we are thinking about what is seen we take it for seeing. Seeing is vipaakacitta, and thinking is akusala citta if it is not with the objective of dana, siila or bhaavanaa. It is helpful to know and remember this. We are so ignorant about our thinking. Ordinary worldling: this is contrast with the sotaapanna who understands through insight kamma and vipaaka. ------- Ch: Luck is a condition. ------- N:perhaps you mean good fortune, the pleasant worldly conditions, but these are results, results of kamma. ------- Ch: I do not understand what you mean by the paragraph "... Seeing the > disadvantages of akusala helps to appreciate the development of kusala. But > tracing which kamma produces which vipaka is impossible, kammas of so many > past lives also produce results today." ------- N: We do not know the past but new kusala kamma can be developed. When we see the benefit of dana, siila and bhaavana we develop it. The Tipitaka inspire us to see the benefit and to develop them. --------- Ch: To understand why a person acts a certain way is not harmful. In fact it is an > important analysis for all teachers/gurus/Lamas/Priest/monks-(that attend to > the laity), as well as individuals on any path of self-improvement (esp. the > Dharma). ------ N: Here we can combine functional realities (Howards post) with paramattha dhammas. We can also speak of social realities (good for Joop). Yes, I agree. thinking why a person acts this way helps to a certain degree and we have to work with functional or social realities. We think of this individual and that individual. The Buddha did. But, understanding paramattha dhammas and their relations, their conditions, is most beneficial for social life. Kh Sujin said: be an understanding person, meaning just that. It helps tolerance. We are critical of others, may find them disturbed, but, the study of nama and rupa and awareness of them is such a great teacher. So long as we lack understanding we are mentally disturbed ourselves. In this way we shall learn to have have less prejudices. I am glad you brought this up, Nina. 48186 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: What is Right Effort ... ??? robmoult Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Venerable Samahita, > What is the pali word for 'motivation'? > Robert I have an electronic version of the 1778 page PTS Pali Dictionary. I searched for motivation / motivate / incentive / inspiration but did not find any matches. Metta, Rob M :-) 48187 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heedfulness and the Five Faculties buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Yes, let's save these points for the bigger event -- the upcoming discussion of Kundaliya Sutta. I also like your comments on Sati in a reply to Kel (noisy neighbors). Maybe we can reflect on these comments too. Thank you for giving me the feedback. Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > heedfulness, mindfulness and the Co, you were quoting > LV.40 Nandiya Sutta: ]>. All these things, also what the Co says will also appear when studying the Kundaliya sutta. Perhaps we save those points till then. > Nina > op 19-07-2005 21:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > Guarding mind with heedfulness is the same as developing sati with > > sati and nana (knowledge) as stated in Breathing Treatise para 196: > > > > "Mindfulness is both the establishment (foundation) and the > > mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he > > contemplates the body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation > > (Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body is said'." 48188 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: Liberation from Wage Slavery! ;-)) (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/25/05 1:18:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: Hi Howard Many thanks for your congratulations. Retirement does indeed mark a stage in one's life, even though for me it does not mark the end of my working life. ------------------------------ Howard: To each his own! ;-) ---------------------------- Last Friday was the big day, so this is day 3 now ;-)) ----------------------------- Howard: Enjoy it, Jon! :-) ----------------------------- Sorry for the short note, but we have a flight about to leave. ------------------------------ Howard: Bon Voyage! ----------------------------- Will speak again later. ---------------------------- Howard: Great! :-) --------------------------- Jon ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48189 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - In a message dated 7/25/05 3:15:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: Hi Nina, Coincidently I recently bought a headset that covers that whole ear for my mom to listen to dhamma mp3's on computer. It pretty much blocks outside noise. Now let's say you have such a headset and neighbor noise causes aversion usually. Is it a) better to keep observating the neighbor noise or b) put on the headset and possibly have less aversion. I would think there's equal amount of nama/rupa going on for both choices. How do you see this? - kel ======================= I would use the headphones when my aim is to enable greater concentration on a particular useful activity such as Dhamma study or intensive meditation on internal phenomena. But clear awareness of aversion is also an extremely important phenomenon to observe and to come to see the nature of, especially the reactive nature of it. Avoiding it by eliminating trigger-dhammas that arise is only a palliative except for certain useful purposes (such as sitting for deep concentration), but not something to be run to all the time, I think. (I know that you are not suggesting that - I'm just adding this on a cautionary note.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Carita nilovg Hi Rob M, It is also in the Netti, the Guide, p. 247, but here it is clear that it is hard to pinpoint, we have all bad inclinations. I wrote before about this. Kh Sujin cautioned about carita, saying that only by awareness and understanding can we know about temperaments. She used once this text. Nina. op 25-07-2005 01:53 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga (which some consider to be an expanded > version of the Vimuttimagga) lists only the first six (see Vism > III.74 ff) arguing against the Vimuttimagga's expansion into > combinations. 48191 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Dear Robert K {Attn. Herman, Howard, CharlesD, RobM, Agrios and others} - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > How can I blame Acariya Buddhaghosa for my own inadequate > > panna? The confusion in the book might be just a mirage to me who > > has an imperfect vision. > > > > You may help me eliminate the mirage by means of a wise > > explanation, given that the book is crystally clear to you. Then > you can reap the benefits of your kusala action at the same time. > > > >+++++++++++++ > Dear Tep, > I have never claimed that the Visuddhimagga or any part of the texts > is crystal clear to me. They explain what life itself really is, and > this is much harder to understand than trifling things like physics > or other worldly matters. > However I do not see any problems with the explanations of sankhara and am puzzled why you think a word should have the same meaning whatever the context is. Take the simple English word 'Book' and think of its meanings - Book a ticket to the concert.; 'Book him!, > the police sargent said.; I read a book.; The accountant examined > the books. > > NIna wrote to you that "[We need to know] nama and rupa in more > detail and also the conditions for their arising, it is very > hard to understand D.O. > And what is more: if we do not realize through direct awareness and > understanding the dhamma appearing now, it is very hard to > understand DO." > This is what is most important, otherwise the true meanings of > sankhara will never be known. > Do you accept now that there are really no beings, no Tep at all - > that there are only elements arising and ceasing. If so then the way > to practice is clear- investigate the elements as they arise here > and now. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------- Thank you for giving me another opportunity to discuss the Dhamma. My comment was: > Tep: > You may help me eliminate the mirage by means of a wise > explanation, given that the book is crystally clear to you. Then > you can reap the benefits of your kusala action at the same time. RobertK : "However I do not see any problems with the explanations of sankhara and am puzzled why you think a word should have the same meaning whatever the context is." Tep: But you have not given me a wise explanation yet. Please try again, using whatever context you deem appropiate to support your answers to the following questions: -- When and why is sankhara the same as sankhata ? -- Is sankhara khandha same as sankhara? -- Why do feeling and perception define citta-sankhara? Why are the other 50 cetasika not qualified as citta-sankhara? ------------------------------------ RobertK (quoting Nina above): "This is what is most important, otherwise the true meanings of sankhara will never be known." Tep: How so? What are the true meanings of sankhara? ------------------------------------ RobertK: "Do you accept now that there are really no beings, no Tep at all - that there are only elements arising and ceasing. If so then the way to practice is clear- investigate the elements as they arise here and now." Tep: The truth that elements (dhatu), ayatana, khandha, rupa and nama arise and cease because of conditions(paccaya) is a separate issue from whether there is Tep, or no Tep. The thought of 'I am' is conditioned by conceit and clinging to the heap. If I "accept now that there are really no beings, no Tep at all ", will that acceptance lead me to the right view? I don't think so. The following sutta quote defines right view and wrong (extreme) views. "There are really no beings, no Tep at all " is a wrong view. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non- existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle. ..." [Kaccayanagotta Sutta] Tep : Since (you have said that) there are no no beings, no Tep at all, do you also say the followings? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' With metta & karuna, Tep ============== 48192 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage agriosinski It could be just meSelf, but I found what sankharas really are, and can share with everyone: Katame ca bhikkhave, saükhąrą: Chayime bhikkhave, cetanąkąyą: råpasa¤cetaną saddasa¤cetaną gandhasa¤cetaną rasasa¤cetaną phońńhabbasa¤cetaną dhammasa¤cetaną, ime vuccanti bhikkhave, saükhąrą. Phassasamudayą saükhąrasamudayo, phassanirodhą saükhąranirodho, ayameva ariyo ańńhaļgiko maggo saükhąranirodhagąminć pańipadą: seyyathćdaü:sammądińńhi sammąsaükappo sammąvącą sammąkammanto sammąąjćvo sammąvąyąmo sammąsati sammąsamądhi. Ye hi keci bhikkhave, samaõą vą brąhmaõą vą evaü saükhąre abhi¤¤ąya evaü saükhąrąsamudayaü abhi¤¤ąya evaü saükhąranirodhaü abhi¤¤ąya evaü saükhąranirodhagąminiü pańipadaü abhi¤¤ąya saükhąrąya nibbidą virągą nirodhą anupądą vimuttą, te suvimuttą, ye suvimuttą, te kevalino, ye kevalino, vańńaü tesaü natthi pa¤¤ąpanąya. 16. Monks, what are intentions? These six are the bodies of intention. They are intentions for forms, sounds, scents, tastes, touches and ideas. Monks these are called intentions. From contacts arise intentions and the cessation of contacts is the cessation of intentions. This same Noble Eightfold Path is the method for the cessation of intentions such as Right View, .. re ... Right Concentration 17. Monks, the recluses and brahmins who in this manner thoroughly realize intentions, their arising, cessation and the method for their cessation have fallen to the method of turning, loosing interest and ceasing intentions and they have fallen to the rightful method of measuring the depth of this dispensation. 18. Monks, the recluses and brahmins who in this manner have thoroughly realized intentions, their arising, cessation and the method for the cessation of intentions, have fallen to the method of turning, loosing interest and ceasing intentions. They are the released, well released, perfect ones who cannot be shown in existences. so frankly, there is just no need whatsoever to consider some wrong views of monks and dhamma teachers as worthy of any attention at all. :) don't worry, be happy, Agrios 48193 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:48pm Subject: Aarammana buddhistmedi... Hi, all - The Nyanatiloka Dictionary defines 'aarammana' as follows: " Aarammana = 'object'. There are six: visible object, sound, odor, taste, body-impression, mind-object. "The mind-object (dhammįrammana) may be physical or mental, past, present or future, real or imaginary. "The 5 sense-objects belong to the corporeality-group (rśpa- kkhandha, s. khandha). "They form the external foundations for the sense-perceptions, and without them no sense-perception or sense-consciousness (seeing, hearing, etc.) can arise. [end of quote] Is it true that all objects are dukkha? No exception? Best wishes, Tep ======== 48194 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Hi, Agrios - Volition or intention (cetana or sancetana) is kamma :"Volition is action (kamma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." [ AN VI.13]. As you know, cetana is one of the 50 cetasika (mental factors). And so cetana is a sankhara as you've proclaimed. But abhidhamma experts may disagree. From your sutta quote, it is stated :"These six are the bodies of intention. They are intentions for forms, sounds, scents, tastes, touches and ideas." And I am glad to know that by thoroughly realizing these six bodies of intention, their arising, cessation and the method for the cessation of intentions, release from bonding can be expected. A: "So frankly, there is just no need whatsoever to consider some wrong views of monks and dhamma teachers as worthy of any attention at all." Tep: I think you are right. Being able to let go is a great achievement. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > It could be just meSelf, but I found what sankharas really are, > and can share with everyone: > 48195 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:44pm Subject: Re: What is Right Effort ... ??? egberdina Hi Robs, The online Pali dictionary I use has motive as paccaya. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Venerable Samahita, > > What is the pali word for 'motivation'? > > Robert > > I have an electronic version of the 1778 page PTS Pali Dictionary. I > searched for motivation / motivate / incentive / inspiration but did > not find any matches. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 48196 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Sankhara khanda start with flashes of phassa agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Agrios - > > Volition or intention (cetana or sancetana) is kamma :"Volition is action > (kamma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does > the action, be it by body, speech or mind." [ AN VI.13]. > > As you know, cetana is one of the 50 cetasika (mental factors). And so > cetana is a sankhara as you've proclaimed. But abhidhamma experts > may disagree. Hi Tep :) well, they stay silent for thousand years on Cula_Vedala Sutta where sanna and vedana are listed as sankharas, why would they take stand on Parivatta Sutta? Or any other sutta? Or one hundred suttas? What I proclaimed... hehehehe, are flashes of phassa. :) Wherever there is six door, there will be phassa. Flashes of phassa, milions and milions of them. If phassa and avija come together, there will be cetana as well. This very moment of cetana initiation is sankhara. It is the same and no other then sankhara khanda. inbreath -> outbreath = body determinant (kaya sankharo) vitakka -> vicara = speech determinant (vacisankharo) sanna -> vedana = mental determinant (cittasankharo) This is my initial observation and I intend to spend more time looking into it. metta, Agrios BTW: since someone got personal in subject of this thread, I shall change it. 48197 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements egberdina Hi RobertK > Do you accept now .... > that there are only elements arising and ceasing. If so then the way > to practice is clear- investigate the elements as they arise here > and now. I am curious about the above. I have previously written to Jon about my perception that things or objects arise as differences between what has arisen and what is arising. This is opposed to the perception that things or objects arise absolutely. Some examples of what I mean. If you take a sip from a glass of water with five tablespoons of sugar in it, it will taste sweet. If you then take a sip from a glass of water with one teaspoon of sugar in it, it will taste sour. Wait for a while, take another sip from the latter glass and it will taste sweet. Or if there is loud music in a room, and someone drops a pin, it goes unnoticed. Yet in a room where it is deadly quiet, the dropping of a pin shatters the silence. What is actually being investigated when one sets out to discern absolute elements? To me, it seems one is simply forcing observations to fit into a theory, which IMHO seems an exercise in delusion. Kind Regards Herman 48198 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: What is Right Effort ... ??? buddhistmedi... Hi, RobK ,Rob M ,and Herman - English-Pali Dictionary by Metta Net, Sri Lanka http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/dict-ep/dictep-m.htm motive : (nt.) nimitta; nidāna; kāraṇa. (m.) hetu. (adj.) cālaka; pavaṭṭaka; hetubhūta. (v.t.) hetuṃ sampādeti. motiveless : (adj.) ahetuka; animitta. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Robs, > > The online Pali dictionary I use has motive as paccaya. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > 48199 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness kelvin_lwin Hi Howard and Nina, I'm going to combine the reply to this one. Here's the context I'm considering the situation in, copied from #48181: (1) The effort to overcome already present detrimental mental states.. (2) The effort to prevent future detrimental mental states from arising.. (3) The effort to begin developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states.. (4) The effort to maintain & perfect already arisen advantageous mental states.. I don't see the situation as so difficult as you, Nina. If there's understanding as just noise and not noisy neighbors then either (3) or (4) is satisifed so it's good. However, if there's mostly aversion due to the conditions and the history of such incidents then it's difficult for understanding to arise. So the two possibilities are to risk more akusala arising for proper understanding to arise or to change the object. It is like pulling my earlopes to keep awake. headphones are pretty symbolic of samatha to me. Divert the mind to more agreeable objects so that (1) can be achieved. It is not necessarily going to lead to enlightenment but it does cut the loss by ending akusala and lends itself to more of (3). Generally speaking are we more patient when we're in a good mood or agitated? It's the war that has to be won and not every battle. Howard, I don't see the necessity of akusala like aversion arising to gain understanding of dhammas. As I stated it's really the above 4 things I'm thinking about and not just concentration for the sake of it. - kel