48600 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Excluded from the cure? ( ws Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) philofillet Hi Herman, and all > I feel very sneaky, about to launch a full-frontal attack when > you're not even here to defend yourself. If there's any Dhamma discussion of value, of course it's not about Phil and Herman, it's right understanding or wrong understanding. It's easier to sense that when listening to a talk than when reading, for some reason. > > Here's one - Acharn Sujin said "First everything is dhamma, at > > the level of intellectual understanding, then moments of awareness > > of namas and rupas, until the moment that everything is dhamma at > > the level of" some advanced stage of insight - I forget the word. > > > > I feel so confident that we have to have a solid grounding of > > intellectual understanding - which involves *believing* the > aspects > > of the Buddha's teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna > > to understand. This *must* come first. We must believe the > Buddha's > > teaching and accept that the aspects that don't make sense yet are > > due to the huge shortcomings in our understanding rather than > > deficiencies in the Dhamma. We do not have anywhere near the > degree > > of insight of the Buddha or noble ariyans so we should be humble > and > > patient and understand to the degree that understanding arises due > > to conditions, rather than trying and trying and trying to > > understand to the degree that we *want* to. > > I do not seek to dissuade you from your confidence in believing you > need a solid intellectual understanding before anything else. > > You may find it useful to reflect on other ways of looking at it. Ph: Yes, though hard to imagine that I will give up faith in the Buddha's teaching - and it is teaching. Thus there is listening (or reaading) first and learning starting from there, gradually. Or more suddenly when the conditions are right, as they were more often in the Buddha's day, for the monks who had the great fortune to be listening to him. > > I think the three part scheme of theory first, then practise, then > realisation, originates many hundreds of years after the suttas were > originally delivered. You can check that for yourself, if you want. Ph: Here you are thinking of specific words, the pariyati, patipati and pativedha. Maybe it is true they firs appear in the commentaries. That doesn't matter. You see, we can't get hooked up by words - it is the meaning of the words that matter. So if you read the suttas that Christine read again, carefully, and reflect on them, you will find the stages of hearing, developing and experiencing, or something like that. We also find it in the Buddha's very first discourse. The three rounds of the four noble truths. Please check them out. I'm not sure - writing this off the top of my head - but I think these three rounds are akin to the three "p"s. Besides, it's common-sense. Of course there is theory first. How could the great teaching of anatta, the teaching that I'm sure we all agree distinguishes the Dhamma from other spiritual teachings (which all contain refraining from evil and doing good, and suffering, and impermanence), how could it be understood without considering it in theory first? I suppose people who believe in mystical experiences say that it could but I am not interested in mystical experiences now, though I used to be when I did a lot of drugs. Now I am interested in the way of liberation taught by the Buddha, and this way of liberation starts with right understanding. And right understanding starts in a book, or listening to a teaching. Most people get trapped there. The great thing about listening to A. Sujin is that she is always, always urging us out of the book into cosidering what is happening in the present moment. This is very clear when you hear the talks. Buddha she laughs when someone asks if we should throw out our books. "You can't throw out the tipitaka and commentaries." > In the Suttas, the Buddha teaches Dhamma-Vinaya. It is the teachings > and the discipline. There is no suggestion that you must first gorge > yourself on teachings, before one can embark on discipline. To the > contrary, each and every teaching involves a discipline for that > moment. To the householder of one inclination he verbally instructs > one discipline fitting for that moment, to a householder of another > understanding he verbally instructs another discipline fitting for > that moment, and to an ariyan of consumate perfection he verbally > instructs yet another discipline fitting for that moment. There is > no sense that the householder must ingest all the teachings first. Ph; I agree that the way of wisdom, of understanding, is not for everyone. If there are not the conditions to respond to it, we won't. I talked about this with Rob K when we met. I am in favour of people using metta meditation even if it is with wrong understanding because I believe emotional stability and a sense of calm are good for people even if they are not rooted in right understanding. But there are other people who respond to the way of wisdom and should be stricted about doing things intentionally without right understanding in the belief that it will accomplish anything toward liberation. How do we know if we have the right accumulations. I think that there is a lot of lobha and dosa accumulated in this citta stream that is arising through a fellow named Phil, but there also seems to be some kind of wisdom that conditioned great interest in panna, in Abhidhamma, which is all about annata, in Samyutta Nikaya, which is pretty much Abhidhamma as far as I can see. On the other hand, I might be fooling myself. I claim to feel liberated even by intellectual understanding. I claim that my calm response to my mother's illness, for example, was conditioned by right understanding that all is conditioned nama and rupa, we will live countless lives and love and lose countless mothers. We have, we will. The Buddha teaches this in suttas, a whole book of them in Samyuttta Nikaya. (no 15? 14? the suttas which say, for example, that all the tears that we have cried in all our countless lives would fill an ocean.) On the other hand, this might not be wisdom but might just be a cold bastard grabbing on to a good excuse to maintain characteristic distance from loved ones. Probably both. Right understanding is not a constant. It arises in moments, mixed in with tons of ignorance. > Tep and I discussed hearing the teachings in terms of filling up > cars with petrol. Another way of looking at it is as eating, with a > view to nourishing the body. Eating is not nourishing. Digestion is. > Without digestion, eating is a fruitless activity. The teachings are > of benefit when they become your own. No need to finish a ten- course > meal before the first entree is allowed to be digested. In fact, > there is every chance that if the entrees are not being digested as > they are being eaten, the main course, let alone the desert, will > exit through the same hole they entered the body. Ph: Absolutely true, and well said. We can start reflecting on what we read right away, learning right away, developing right away. But this is beyond our control. We understand what we can, due to conditions, not what we want to by dint of our diligent effort. But yes, absolutely, I'm certainly not saying that we have to read and read and read before the teachers "become our own" as you nicely say. Herman, I've been thinking a lot about you for some reason. You interest me. I think you are mucking around outside the gates of Dhamma, still very keen on science and psychology. There is a terms "excluded from the cure" that is used somewhere, I guess in a sutta. I think people who are unwilling to lay down their scientific minds are excluded from the cure offered by Dhamma. You write of delusion. For example, believing in rebirth would be a delusion, because it can't be experienced and proven. (Hope I didn't mis- paraphrase you there.) But when we know about the great deluge of delusion that is constantly sweeping us on through the eye, the ear, the mouth, the nose the body and the mind (one of the Buddha's first suttas, the fire sutta, says "the world is burning through the eye, etc.) I would say worrying about the delusion of believing in things without proof is akin to a man whose house is being swept away by a flood being worried about getting his hair wet if he steps outside in an effort to escape! Maybe. Something like that. A nice long ramble there, Herman. I do have a hunch that you are going to really enter the gates of Dhamma and stop messing around with university science studies which will just confuse things. You can pick a few things here that catch your interest and respond if you'd like. As usual, I won't be able to get back to you for a few days. And sorry for any typos. Just sending this off. Metta, Phil 48601 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 2:25pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures. philofillet Hello Nina, and all Nina, I always enjoying hearing what you and Lodewijk talk about. I think the discourse you have is of historical interest and if I had time I would like to be your biographer and write about you and Lodewijk. I would have to learn Dutch to read your correspondence (I am sure there are many wonderful love letters) but maybe Dutch is not so hard for English speakers to learn. If I win the lottery, I will become your biographer. If only! >Hearing is only an > element which arises and then falls away, there is no self who hears. It can > be compared to a fire which appears and is then extinguished. The fire which > is extinguished has completely disappeared, it did not go anywhere else. Ph: I wonder about this term "fire?" Wouldn't "spark" be better maybe? Because each moment of seeing, hearing etc is so brief and is not wholesome or unwholesome in itself, it is when the spark catches on to the fuel provided by our accumulations that the fire starts, wouldn't you say? I think it is like the sutta about how we can hold poison if our hand doesn't have a wound, but our hands do have wounds and will until we reach stages of enlightenment. Our accumulations do provide fuel and the spark that is seeing etc always does lead to fires. "Fire" sounds more akin to proliferation that follows hearning, seeing etc. Metta, Phil 48602 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 2:54pm Subject: Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour on the NS Wales coast... egberdina Hi Ken, The following is just a spontaneous, good-humoured remark. :-) > ------------------ > <. . .> > S: > K.Sujin was saying at one point (India 01) how there's bound to > be fear of 'no self', 'no friend', 'no family' if there hasn't been > enough understanding developed....'are we ready to give them up?'. > Nina asked about the good cheer in this and K.Sujin said in effect > that it's in the understanding..... > ----------------------------------- > > I had been planning to ask you about this. People who study Dhamma > are not necessarily seeking release from samsara, are they? (Nor, of > course, are they seeking to stay in it.) > > "It's in the understanding." That's good enough for me. > > --------------------------------------------------- It sounds like you're asking for permission to hold off realising the the First Noble Truth for a while :-) Kind Regards Herman 48603 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question egberdina Hi Howard and Nina, > > I am still not clear on why it is said that cittas fall away quicker > than rupas, but it is not really that important. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here's a commonsense approach to the matter: While experincing a rupa - > say hardness, your state of mind might change from concentrated to distracted > or change in some other manner. What that would amount to is a cetasika change. > Any time there is a cetasika change, it is a new mindstate. > --------------------------------------- That does clarify it a lot. Thank you. Perhaps I was too hung up on the use of the phrase "one citta". Better is "a citta". It made me think of the following. Out at our block, I sometimes sit and watch swarms of tiny little flies that hover up and down. While it looks like the swarm as a whole is going up, some flies are actually moving downwards. And vice-versa. It never is "one" swarm, it is "a" swarm. If other flies join in, or some flies leave the swarm, it is still just "a" swarm, not "one" swarm. If another swarm merges with it, it is still "a" swarm, not "two" swarms. Use of the word "a" avoids comparisons like sameness and difference. And the reality, for me, is that a citta is known, and only becomes known, through the reality of anicca, not the reality of a hard and fast though very temporary defining characteristic. THE characteristic IS anicca, while the rupa as rupa, and the nama as nama are abstracted concepts. Have I overshot the runway on this? Kind Regards Herman 48604 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditionality. second stage. egberdina Hi Nina, Thanks for writing. I saw a post from Phil which also discusses the three p's. So I'll combine my reply to you with a reply to his. Later on. Kind Regards Herman 48605 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question upasaka_howard In a message dated 8/8/05 6:14:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard and Nina, > > I am still not clear on why it is said that cittas fall away quicker > than rupas, but it is not really that important. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here's a commonsense approach to the matter: While experincing a rupa - > say hardness, your state of mind might change from concentrated to distracted > or change in some other manner. What that would amount to is a cetasika change. > Any time there is a cetasika change, it is a new mindstate. > --------------------------------------- That does clarify it a lot. Thank you. Perhaps I was too hung up on the use of the phrase "one citta". Better is "a citta". It made me think of the following. Out at our block, I sometimes sit and watch swarms of tiny little flies that hover up and down. While it looks like the swarm as a whole is going up, some flies are actually moving downwards. And vice-versa. It never is "one" swarm, it is "a" swarm. If other flies join in, or some flies leave the swarm, it is still just "a" swarm, not "one" swarm. If another swarm merges with it, it is still "a" swarm, not "two" swarms. Use of the word "a" avoids comparisons like sameness and difference. And the reality, for me, is that a citta is known, and only becomes known, through the reality of anicca, not the reality of a hard and fast though very temporary defining characteristic. THE characteristic IS anicca, while the rupa as rupa, and the nama as nama are abstracted concepts. Have I overshot the runway on this? ---------------------------------------- Howard: We seem to see this similarly, though it's hard to compare. As you know, I'm not convinced of the validity of the sharp-boundary/packet model of any of this. What I do think is that at any time, there is an object of awareness and several mental operations in effect that pertain to it, and the operations do seem to change more quickly than the object. BTW, I like your swarm and individual-flies metaphor! ---------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48606 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Metta (was Re: Botanical Gardens - Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding kenhowardau Hi Joop, ---------------- J: > The first moment I have time to react is Thursday. ---------------- Thanks Joop, there is no hurry. ----------------------- J: > On what 'metta' is and what 'meditation' is One question: do you agree with Nyanaponika? ------------------------ You are referring to the article quoted in 48553, which begins: "Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest love. "Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this so-called "I" is a mere delusion." Because the article begins in that way, yes, I do agree with it. But without that introduction, it would contain nothing to distinguish metta taught by the Buddha from metta taught by anybody else. Change a couple of words around (e.g., change 'the Buddha' to 'Jesus' or to 'a good man') and it could have been written by a priest or a secular teacher. Even with its introduction, the article could still have been better (IMHO). Some things, even at the elementary level, need further explanation. For example, what is the *significance* of their being "no possession and no possessor" and of "I" being a mere delusion? The significance, as I see it, is that there are paramattha dhammas. Metta is not a mere delusion: it is an absolute reality. I would have liked to see words to that effect - Something along the lines of, "The following is a description of a mental phenomenon known as metta, which is a conditioned dhamma with its own, inherent, characteristics." Read in that light, the article conveys the profundity of the Dhamma. The reader appreciates how the Buddha's conventional-sounding words actually describe something profoundly unconventional. Is that a fair comment? Ken H 48607 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - A question gazita2002 Hello Nina and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman and Howard, > ....snip..... > > The Buddha said in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Ones, Ch V .I,9) : > insomuch that it is no easy thing to illustrate how quick to change it is.> > Nina. A: so is the Buddha talking about cittas here? when I talk about changing my mind, and I do it very often - change the mind, that is - I'm referring to the conventional mind, so feel sure its not this mind that the Buddha is addressing. sometimes I feel my conventional mind changes as fast as [almost] the cittas - can't keep up with myself (-: Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 48608 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour on the NS Wales coast... kenhowardau Hi Herman, --------------------------------- H: > The following is just a spontaneous, good-humoured remark. :-) . . . > It sounds like you're asking for permission to hold off realising the the First Noble Truth for a while :-) --------------------- :-) Not at all! I am fully prepared to realise that everything - even Tea-tree Bay when the waves are overhead - is ultimately dukkha. But there is something I have to attend to first. You go ahead, I'll catch up! :-) Ken H 48609 From: "Justin" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hello Chrystyne, How are you? What you are saying really doesn't have anything to do with the actual content of the post. None of the content of my post was negative about mainline christianity at all. I have always specified that it is the evangelical x'tian Missionaries that are threatening Buddhist societies, not common x'tians. the word x'tian is an abbreviation and not derogotory. Jezuz is not derrogatory either. And calling Jesus 'Christ' means you are aknowledging that He is the Savior, which is what the title 'Christ' means. As Buddhists, we don't believe that he is our 'Saviour', so there is no reason to refer to 'Him' as 'Christ', the 'Savior', the 'Son of God' or any other title. Stating this is not derrogatory at all. Back to the point of my original post, I would like to hear what you think about the missionaries flooding southeast Asia. Discussing this is part of the Dhamma. I think it is a good topic to discuss, and more important than discussing my abbreviation of x'tian. I admit I have been course in discussing this in the past, and that is something I will improve on. I would like us to simply discuss this issue and how it effects Buddhism. Best regards, Justin > > Many of us on this list spent most of our lives within Christianity > before coming to the Dhamma, and many of us have relatives and dear > friends who are devout practising Christians and who serve others > with love, intelligence, self-sacrifice and compassion. So on this > List at least, I think we have always shown respect and tolerance > when mentioning Jesus Christ and those people within the fold of > Christianity. With regard to Right Speech - the terms to use > are 'Christians' not xtians; 'Jesus' not jezuz. > > metta > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 48610 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: ... > ... Our tendency to reify our experience is not limited to pa~n~natti, > despite our intellectual grasp of conditionality. Our ignorance-defiled > conceptualization applies acroos the board, even to paramattha dhammas. > I'm not discussing > belief and theory, but the more subtle, subliminal grasping at > mind-made, self-existing entities, whether as subject or as object. But how is that ignorance to be lessened and eventually overcome if not by coming to directly understand the difference between namas and rupas (as a first step)? I think the difference between namas and rupas is one that is not readily apparent, even at an intellectual level. Is pain nama or rupa? What about tiredness, exhaustion? Do we not confuse hearing consciousness and the sound that is heard? In other posts you have talked about the hearing event in a way that suggests the two, although distinguishable in theory, are not distinguishable in practice at the moment of their occurring (perhaps I have misunderstood you). > The hardness we cognize > is not the mere hardness we directly experience. Our sa~n~na is defiled, > even as it recognizes paramattha dhammas. Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it differently? Sanna itself is not defiled, in that it always performs its function of marking the object. > Ignorance "has its way with us". We are > not even close to being free of it, it seems to me. Yes, agreed ;-)). But at a moment of satipatthana, the consciousness is free of ignorance, and every moment of satipatthana brings us closer to freedom from ignorance. Jon 48611 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:36pm Subject: Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour on the NS Wales coast... sarahprocter... Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > "It's in the understanding." That's good enough for me. ... S: Yes, when there's understanding of dhammas, there's no concern about there not being a me, you or anyone else to be given up and the good cheer from the development of detachment is quite different from the good cheer from the development of attachment.... .... > Big waves, pelicans, dolphins, . . . . You haven't forgotten us at > Cooran, have you? .... S: ...and I don't think I mentioned the whales at Bondi putting on a show as we ate our breakfast by the beach.. WE'RE ON OUR WAY! We're now at Byron Bay....long walks along the beach here, a kookaburra perched next to us as we ate our scenic b'fast today... (our one meal out each day). We're now in 'Global Gossip' internet cafe....(lots of them here), next to 'Sacred Body' where one can buy anything mystical, have sacred readings or a variety of massages if one needs a break from all that golden sand. [For James and the other Americans, the drive up the coast to where KenH and AndrewT live is rather like the drive down the coast from San Fran to San Diego in September....lovely sunny days, freezing surf beaches...alternativey spots like this one at Byron Bay, tacky strips to be avoided and lots of beautiful wilderness....James, lots of banana leaves outside our window and thinking of you:) James & Ken H, glad to read your continued discussion on metta and 'clinging to metta'. In the context of our discussion with Herman, it was clinging to having more metta and other wholesome states in the future as he said...to being a better person and so on. This is not the development of metta as he explained. Yes, clinging can be to anything now...] ... > We are waiting eagerly with pages of difficult questions. :-) ... :-)) Somehow I missed Herman's difficult qu so glad to see it here - maybe looking for my glasses at the time...Jon said he couldn't even follow the qu, so he let it pass....A bit like the waves... Metta, Sarah =========== 48612 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question jonoabb Hi Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > This will be my last post in the series. There will be many points of > discussion that I won't have addressed, but hey, we gotta live in the > present, right? :-) Many thanks for your series of posts about our afternoon's chat. It has been interesting to hear your perspective on the meeting. I'm glad you found it useful (and non-doctrinnaire ;-)). > I was slightly pleased that I was able to ask Jon a question to which > he didn't have an answer. > > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > as the previous nama was knowing? And I still don't have an answer ;-)), but then I still haven't quite understood your point. Are you asking how this piece of information could have been known to the original author of it, or are you asking something about the process in which a rupa is experienced by citta? Sorry to be slow in getting your drift. Jon 48613 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: some elaboration on saññaa. to Sarah sarahprocter... Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Sarah, > When you meet Kh Sujin in August I have so specific questions, but it is > helpful to hear more about our attachment. > I would like to hear more about the role of saññaa that is a condition for > so much attachment. Perhaps Kh. Sujin could elaborate on this? It has an > enormous impact on us, does it not? ... S: I agree - enormous impact and I'll try to raise it with Kh Sujin as you suggest. Like now, there is the experience of visible object and without sa~n~naa marking it at each moment there'd be no kookaburra bird, no dolphin, no golden sands and no attachment to all that is seen and the concepts on account of what is seen. When there's no awareness, we live in a dream all the time as she always reminds us and it seems that there's non-stop seeing of visible objects. The world appears light all the time and the mind-door objects are 'covered up'. Each visible object has its own distinct characteristic, but it's only visible object, marked and remembered whenever it appears by sanna leading to this fantasy world of sights and sounds. Let me know if there's any particular aspect or question you want raised on this. Metta, Sarah ======== > I quote again from the tape I copied: > when sound impinges on the earbase different cittas in processes arise. > There is the ear-door adverting-consciousness and saññaa marks the object. > This is followed by hearing, receiving-consciousness, > determining-consciousness and the other cittas arising in processes. Saññaa > accompanies each citta and marks the sound. Since saññaa marks the object > from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? > The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of ignorance.> > Nina. 48614 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:55pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness sarahprocter... Hi RobM & all, Seems a long time since our useful discussion in the Shangrila lobby ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I asked Jon and Sarah, "In the Satipatthana Sutta, does the Buddha > not instruct monks to go and sit under a tree and can this not be > considered formal meditation?" > > Jon replied, "No, he did not instruct monks to sit under a tree. > Consider carefully the words of the Sutta, 'Having gone to the > forest, to the foot of a tree...'. This is not an instruction." > > Sarah then added, "Consider the lifestyle of monks at that time. Many > of them spent much of the day meditating under trees. The Buddha was > not instructing them to meditate under trees, but he was saying, 'If > you are going to meditate, then you should observe your breath...'. > Since meditation was a big part of many monks' daily lives, the > Buddha was instructing them to practice mindfulness as part of their > daily lives." ... S: I think the gist is fine but what I said was that many of those monks were aleady adept at jhana with breath as object and that the Buddha instructed them (as he instructed everyone else) to be aware of presently arising dhammas. For those monks, the rupas of breath were amongst the naturally arising present dhammas as they sat at the roots of trees. For us, sitting in the Shangrila lobby, perhaps the naturally arising dhammas were/are the seeing, visible objects, hearing, annoyance, confusion, thinking and so on.... ... I enjoyed your further discussions and comments on mindfulness after seeing Phil... Metta, Sarah > Jon continued, "The Satipatthana Sutta then talks about practicing > mindfulness while walking, sitting, standing or lying down. When is > one not doing one of these four things? When talking about the four > postures, the Buddha is again instructing to have mindfulness in > daily life." 48615 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) jonoabb Hi Phil --- Philip wrote: ... > Yes, and he'll be back in October. I haven't written in detail > about our talk this time because I want to avoid long posts for > awhile but it was very fruitful. He made a good case for me making a > trip to Bangkok to meet A. Sujin and Ivan and Sukin and others. I > had never really considered it before but he just about had me > pulling out my credit card. A trip to Bangkok is well worth considering, if it can be arranged. I'm sure you would benefit a lot from it. Do keep it in mind. > Ph: As you know, in one of the recorded talks there is a fellow > (don'T know who he is, but I like his good humour) who when A. Sujin > says "it is difficult to believe that everything is paramattha > dhammas" says "I don't think it's difficult to believe but it seems > impossible to experience." Then A. Sujin says, and I paraphrase, > that is good, that the believing shows that a condition is there for > the development of panna. But still, 'believeing' here must be a reference to 'saddha' or confidence based on understanding. Unless the belief has a sound basis, it could not be kusala (because it could not be an accurate belief). (That recording was from India 2001. I think the speaker might have been Tom Westheimer. Tom and Bev will also be on the India trip later this year.) > ... So we can believe the Buddha's > teaching, most of which is far beyond us at this point. And I say we > *must* believe it as a necessary condition to progress on the path. We must be sufficiently non-resistant to the teachings to be able to consider and reflect upon those parts that are directly relevant to our present level of understanding. > Ah, my first babble in weeks. I am weaning myself off the internet > in other areas, gradually, so perhaps I will find myself with more > time for DSG. My beloved baseball team is in danger of falling out > of contention for the championship. If that happens, I'll have so > much more time. All these addictions. I suspect you wouldn't know > what it's like to have addictions, Jon. We all have different > accumulated tendencies. It's interesting. I have only six addictions, Phil: to the objects appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. ;-)) Jon 48616 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Would you recommend ceasing studying of the texts, given the dangers > of being deluded as to why the study is taking place? .... S: You gave super reports....I didn't reply before leaving Hong Kong to a couple of your posts or this comment (though I know others discussed it). I'm not sure that you reported further on our discussion on this point in the Botanical Gdns... I think I commented that it's just as useless to study texts (or commentaries:)) if it's for the wrong purpose as it is to follow any other activity. As Ken H keeps saying, it comes back to the present moment again....On our drive yesterday, we were listening to the Sri Lanka discussion where K.Sujin is also stressing this point that if one is just studying the texts in order to gain scholarly expertise in them, one will just accumulate more conceit and instead of leading to less defilements, such study will lead to more. So, I think you make a good point....again, no need to follow or abandon any particular activities, but to develop more awareness and understanding in order to honestly and sincerely see the present dhammas for what they are - good, bad and often very ugly. Thanks again for all the great reporting. We have very fond memories of the lovely occasion together....hopefully, Vicki will stay longer next time too:). Metta, Sarah p.s the surf is our kuti or cave here.... ======== 48617 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:10pm Subject: Re: Prefered renderings sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear sarah abbott & friends: > > One's preferences in renderings change over time, > yet here is IMHO, what I currently find ideal: > > Citta = One Thought > Vinnana = Consciousness > Nama = Mentality or Mind > Sankhara = Construction ... S; I think it's healthy that the renderings do change or if we're open-minded to improvements like you are. How would you translate 'mano' now after the post I wrote quoted the Dhp commentary and other sources indicating that it refers to citta? ..... > > PS: It is a true pleasure to note the quite high standard > here at DSG. A rarity... > > : - ] ... S: It's a pleasure for us too ...really, it's thanks to the high standard of the contributors like yourself, Bhante. Metta, Sarah ======= 48618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness jonoabb Hi RobM --- robmoult wrote: ... > > Also, on the subject of realities vs. concepts, I think the question > is > > whether the Buddha taught in the suttas about insight into dhammas or > > insight into dhammas and concepts. I think you are suggesting the > > latter. Have I understood you correctly? > > ===== > > Not exactly. I am not aware of any Suttas where the Buddha > differentiated between what later writers call "realities" and what > later writers call "concepts". > > Certainly, the Buddha split a "being" into five aggregates, but isn't > the sankhara aggregate a collection of what later writers > call "realities"? Not quite. 'Realities' is a translation of 'dhammas' as it appears in certain contexts. According to later writers, one of the meanings of 'dhammas' is things having 'own nature' that can be the object of insight development (vipassana). These are the same dhammas that are classified in the suttas as the five khandhas, as the ayatanas, as the dhatus, as the four foundations of mindfulness, etc. Thus the sankhara aggregate is comprised of certain dhammas, and together with the other 4 aggregates it includes all dhammas. BTW, I would not say that the Buddha split a being into the five aggregates. He explained that what we take for a being is nothing other than the five aggregates. There is a subtle but important difference between the two statements. The former does not deny the idea of a 'self'. > In the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn1), the Buddha reviews the perception > process of "uninstructed worldlings " (that's us), "learners" > (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami), Arahants and a Buddha. The Buddha > starts out with the four elements as objects of perception but quickly > moves into what later writers term "concepts" such as beings, gods, > specific gods, objects of arupa jhanas, etc. The Buddha used the same > language when discussing all of these objects. Yes, but the Buddha often spoke of (what later writers call) the paramattha dhammas in conventional terms: see the description of what constitutes suffering in the first Noble Truth ending with 'in short, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering'. Jon 48619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Wording of the Doctrine - (Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet)) jonoabb Hi Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Tell you what, you give me a reference to any Sutta that mentions > pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha and I'll get you a reference to a > Sutta that mentions Dhamma-Vinaya :-) From Christine's post: "Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not carefully hear the dhamma, 2. do not carefully learn the dhamma, 3. do not carefully retain the dhamma, 4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained dhamma, and 5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma according to dhamma." I would see 1, 2 and 3 as referring to pariyatti, 4 as referring to patipatti, and 5 as referring to patipatti and pativedha. Does it matter that later writers use terms that are not found in the suttas, as long as what they say is fully consistent with the original teachings? Jon 48620 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:28pm Subject: Discussion with Antony (was Re: gang talk) sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Antony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > >> > there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even > > if he > >> > has learnt much.>> > >> ------- > >> N: We also studied this in the early days of our Visuddhimagga study > > (two > >> years ago), one of the most difficult subjects. > C:> Thank you. Lots UP under Sarah's Patisambhidha collection: .... S: Yes, lots more there. I was hoping to quickly find a couple of posts I wrote before after discussions with K.Sujin, but this computer is too slow for that. I think the important point is what I wrote before to Dighanakka: >The nama or rupa quality of realities is there to be known regardless of any designated name. When there is awareness of feeling, it doesn't matter at all what it is called or what language is used, but its characteristic can be known. For those with insight or understanding of nirutti patisambhida, when a word such as `vedanaa' is heard, immediately there is understanding of its meaning, of its quality as a nama, distinct from a rupa. This is why some like Sariputta could hear a few words and immediately penetrate the `essence' of the language.< ….. Antony, Connie gave the following in her message which I'll quote as you asked after I mentioned these terms in our discussion with regard to paying attention to the 'signs and details' of what is seen and heard: C: > notes to self: signs & details (nimitta & anubya~njana); anu - minor; > secondary. > (nu/na/)NI-MITTA [sign; omen; portent; cause]<...> bya~njana - <...> sign or mark; > ... S: this is also relevant to the comments on sa~n~naa - without the attending with sanna to the nimitta and anubya~njana no attachment would arise. Hence, as Tep always reminds us, we read in so many suttas about the guarding of the sense doors with awareness rather than being lost in attachment to all the mentally conceived details. Thanks again, Antony, for all your further helpful comments, extracts and quotes. Have you had any further reflections from the discussions or are there any other quotes that have come to mind from your good sutta memory or from your further readings? Metta, Sarah p.s Connie, thx for posting to the other Vism transl - interesting to compare. Anything more on the discriminations - a complex and difficult topic as Nina says? ====== 48621 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable - conditions. jonoabb Hi Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi Howard, Nina, Jon, ... > I am wondering of late whether there can be any understanding of > conditionality that is not conceptual? Do the Suttas suggest anywhere > that there can be "direct knowing" of conditionality? It seems to me > that any understanding of conditionality must be based in part on past > experience. I do understand why you say this, but I believe the knowledge of conditionality spoken of in the suttas, being an aspect of panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana, is a 'direct knowing' of conditionality. Although there is only ever one object of consciousness and hence also of the mental factor of panna, the scope of what can be known by panna is not subject to the same 'single object' rule. The detail that panna may konw about dhammas is potentially of vast scope (as in the case of a Buddha). Jon 48622 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of lightning.....switch off your computer.... sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Herman and all), just found my hard copy of your post I brought with me: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - >Herman: Would you recommend ceasing studying of the texts, given the dangers > of being deluded as to why the study is taking place? > > === > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, here is the point, of course, and it is a good one, I think. During > the lengthy (quite conventional BTW) period of (quite conventional ;-) study > of texts, there are, as during virtually all conventional actions of > nonarahants, INCLUDING THAT OF MEDITATION!! (my emphasis), many, many, many moments of > defiled mentality - most moments probably, defiled by sense of self and by > craving, attachment, and confusion (as to motives and other things). ... S: Agreed - very good points. This is exactly why we can't make generalisations (Herman's point too) and say that we should read texts, travel to India or MEDITATE (in your sens of its meaning). There is no special activity, time or place for developing awareness and this is just the point. .... But a useful > conventional action is exactly that, and the fact that one's mind is > imperfect should not be dragged in to serve as an attempted justification for not > doing what is helpful. .... S: Yes and what is helpful will be the skilful cittas, whether reading a text, driving on the highway, sitting under a tree.... Anytime, there's an attempting to have skilful cittas by doing one of these activities, I think we're in trouble....and it's this last point where we differ, I know.... I may not get another chance for a while to respond...in which case I hope others will join in....I'll look f/w to Herman's further reflections too. Metta, Sarah ====== 48623 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' jonoabb Hi Justin (and Herman) Thanks for this. I think you may have confused Herman's post and mine. I'll leave it to Herman to respond further. Jon --- Justin wrote: > Hello Jon, > > You make some good points. It is obvious that people with little or > nothing are more concerned with where the next meal will come from, > rather than religion. Isn't it a little sick that people try to > coerce people to change their religion as a basis for putting food in > their stomach?. It is like pushing a side order of jezuz with the > meal...the meal that they can only get if they go to the church and > convert.... > > The suicide rate in Sri Lanka has nothing to do with Buddhism. > Poverty and civil war can damage any society. > > Cheers, > > Justin > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Justin, > > > > Nice to be reading your posts. > > > > I thought Jon's reply was very to the point. > > > > My reply will be a bit more worldly. > > > > The question for me is : why are people in developing countries > > susceptible to Christian missionaries? And why is the West walking > > away from Christianity in droves? > > > > I suspect that the answer lies in how much food is in your stomach. > A > > hungry person is less concerned about their next birth, more > concerned > > about where their next meal is coming from. > > > > The promise of Christianity for a poor, hungry person is food on the > > table!!!, not Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour who died on the > cross > > for my sins. > > > > On the other hand, the West needs to constantly destroy food so as > to > > maintain stable price levels. Being as sated as we are, it is easy > to > > see through the basis of organised Christianity as sheer bullshit. > > > > A point to consider. Why is it that a Buddhist-dominated country > like > > Sri Lanka is in the top five countries in the world for suicide > rates, > > and has THE HIGHEST suicide rate in the world for women? > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > > > Herman > > 48624 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Dear Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I wonder about that ending of the Mulapariyaya sutta... > > After several pages of hearing about how the worldlings delight in > this conception and that conception, how the trainees should not > delight in this conception and that conception, and how the arahants > do not delight in this conception and that conception because they > are "free from lust through the destruction of lust." ... S: Did you read the BB note on this, p70 in the booklet on this sutta? Based on coomentary notes, i believe - 'But though this sutta, endowed with variegated mentods and elegance of teaching, was spoken by the Exalted One with a Brahma-like voice sweet as the song of the cuckoo, pleasing to the ear, consecrating the hearts of the wise with the ambrosia of the deathless, 'those bhikkhus did NOT delight in the word of the Exalted One.' Why not? Because they didn't understand it. since they didn't understand the meanign of the sutta, they didn't rejoice in it. For though endowed with variegated methods and elegance of teaching, at the time this sutta was for them like delicious food placed before a man with his mouth bound by a thick, broad cloth.' Later it explains that 'he undertook this teaching for the purpose of shattering their conceit'. They became humble, realizing they didn't understand what was taught and were later able to listen and comprehend. .... >In this sutta, > delighting in a conception is repeatedly referred to as a result of > lack of understanding, so OF COURSE the bhikkhus in this sutta would > not be described as delighting in the Buddha's words: "those bhikkhus > did not delight in the Blessed One's words." It doesn't say that they > were displeased or angry or indignant or offended or in any akusala > state whatsoever. They simply did not "delight" in these particular > conceptions, which is a sign of wisdom in this sutta. > > On another note, you write: "I believe there has to be a lot more > wise attention and listening to clear descriptions of the khandhas, > of namas and rupas and their distinction and so on. Without an > understanding of conditioned dhammas, there will always be a wrong > idea of what samma-vayama is and what right and wrong practice is." > > I think you are right that there has to be a lot of wise attention > and listening and so on and so forth, but it is a bit presumptuous to > say that someone needs to have "a lot more" when you don't have any > idea how well developed their wisdom is. .... S: If even the great disciples who were arahants continued listening and developing wisdom, I'm not sure it is 'a bit presumptuous' to suggest we need continue listening and considering with wise attention.... .... > And your postscript: "Just to emphasise that people often found the > arahants or even the Buddha's talks 'irritating' or unpleasant. So, > it's very, very natural that often what we mere worldlings say will > often condition displeasure:)." > > No doubt that "pleasing to the ear" is not a reliable indicator > of "wise words." ... S: Indeed not - lots of examples of words of arahants not seeming 'pleasing to the ear'. Metta, Sarah ======= 48625 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? sarahprocter... hi Tep,(Connie, Chris) Good to read all your posts. On this earlier one: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Thanks to Kelvin for his introduction of the article, 'The Jhanas and the > Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas', By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi : > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > Thank you Sarah for asking me to comment. ... Tep, it is a very interesting article and I agreed with most of BB's conclusions, i.e that jhana attainment is not given as a pre- requisite for sotapanna attainment. I think the same is true for all ariyan attainment and I responded in detail to BB (and posted on DSG) with comments on his reservations on this. I can't quickly find my post on this....I wonder if Christine or Connie could help and give a link or re-post for you? I'll be glad as usual to read any of your futher comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 48626 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others sarahprocter... Hi Herman, I'll have to sign off -- it's getting v.noisy in 'Global Gossip' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >The reality of there being your thoughts and memories and > my thoughts and memories does not contradict anything in the suttas. ... S: In truth, just thoughts and memories -- not yours or mine... .... > Those beings possessed of abhinnas can, after all, also differentiate > between their own past lives, and the past lives of others. But the > Abhidhamma lacks the capacity to describe such scenarios, as Joop > points out. ... S: I think it describes such scenarios in far more detail than we'd ever care to know about. but such scenarios can only ever be in terms of cittas, cetasikas and rupas in the final analysis. The understanding of past lives -- 'ours' or 'others' is the understanding of particular 'streams' of dhammas...not people... .... > > Let's take the parinibanna of the Buddha. Did it happen? Did it happen > somewhere, sometime? Or was it a global event with global effect? Did > it happen to something, someone specific? ... Like now, cittas arise and cease, followed by more cittas which arise and cease. The only difference at parinibbana is that the last citta ceases and is not followed by another one. No person, place or time or anything global in it. The effect depends on the other 'streams' of cittas....like now, is there any understanding of dhamma? If so, it's not 'yours' or 'mine' but it only arises because of what the Buddha taught:-)). Gotta go, Metta, Sarah =========== 48627 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Best among Gods & Men ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Ultimate Goal is complete Extinguishing of Craving: By the gradual stilling, giving up, fading away, letting go, relinquishing and thus ceasing of all greed, desire, lust, craving, clinging, attachment, adherence, obsession, and latent tendency towards the various elements of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions & kinds of consciousness, the mind is finally said to be well released...!!! Therefore; those recluses & priests, who are well released by Extinction of Craving, have reached the Ultimate End & won Absolute Security from Bondage, they have achieved a Sublime Nobility, they have accomplished the Supreme Good! They are thus Best among all Gods and all Humans !!! Even these mighty Devas as Indra, Brahma and Pajapati praise them with these long standing ovations from afar: Homage to you, Thoroughbred Man! Admirable are you, Supreme Man! We know not on what you Meditate! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22(4+79): [III 13+-91] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-001.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48628 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Tep who wrote: >implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. Not so, friend, but Rather: They are inseparable & mutually dependent: What ever one feels, perceives, thinks, attends to, analyzes & intends, of that one is also conscious... Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 48629 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 1:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 473) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) The first three stocks of dhamma have been explained in the previous posts. The fourth stock of akusala dhamma or unwholesome dhamma is gantha dhamma. 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) There are 4 gantha dhamma. They are 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha 2. byaapaada kaayagantha 3. silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha has been discussed in the previous post. 2. byaapaada kaayagantha The first gantha is lobha cetasika. But the second gantha is dosa cetasika. This is a new akusala dhamma as compared to previous three stocks of akusala dhamma namely aasava dhamma, ogha dhamma, and yoga dhamma all of which do not include dosa cetasika. Byaapaada kaayagantha is dosa. Byaapaada means 'ill-will' 'malevolence'. It is destructive mind. Kaaya means 'body' and gantha means 'bond' 'tie' 'knot'. So byapada kayagantha means 'the bond of ill-will'. This ill-will or malevolence knots beings not to escape from kaama loka and this dhamma ties beings to pancuppaadaanakkhandhas or 5 clinging aggregates. Byaapaada kaayagantha is like abhijjhaa kaayagantha very complex entangement of net threads and these threads knot, tie, bind and trap beings in the net and once beings are in the net knotted tightly there is little chance to escape from that binding. Once anagami magga naana or 'non-returning path-knowledge' arises all the threads in the entangled net of trap are cut up and beings in question are released from byaapaada kaayagantha. But there are still other knots or bonds. Even though beings may temporarily released from the knots of abhijjhaa kaayagantha and byaapaada kaayagantha they are still in the net of silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha and idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha. Because of these two further kaayagantha beings have to be reborn again and again and they all are tied to three lokas of kaama, ruupa and aruupa sphere. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48630 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 2:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 462 ), 72 dhammas and Sarah htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 ultimate realities. They are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana. There are 1 citta, 52 cetasika, 18 sabhaava ruupa or nipphanna ruupa, and 1 nibbana altogether 72 dhammas. These dhamma may be grouped in different combinations in the following ways. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, There are 4 realities. Citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana. If a dhamma is citta then it is a reality. If a dhamma is cetasika then it is a reality. If a dhamma is ruupa then it is a reality. If a dhamma is nibbana then it is a reality. I said there are 4 ultimate realities. They are so and so. Then I continued to say, ..There are 72 dhammas. Then I grouped them into 4 stocks. These 4 stocks are described in abhidhammatthasangaha. I just gave them simple names. I did not say 10 anipphanna ruupa are not realities. With respect, Htoo Naing 48631 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 3:00am Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term abhidhammika Dear Steve, Nina, Connie, Sarah, Chris, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all How are you? Steve asked: "Are there any references to lokuttara dana? So far, I could not find direct references to the expression "lokuttara dana". So we have to show the phenomenon of lokuttara dana by indirect ways. I will use the methods of bodhiology, the scientific branch of Theravada. Steve also asked: "Are magga or phala cittas considered a type of dana?" This is easier. No, they are not. Steve also wrote: "My understanding was that lokuttara was limited to nibbana and the citta and cetasikas that have nibbana as object, ie, magga and phala citta and cetasikas and nibbana?" Your understanding is mostly correct, especially in the parlance of ultimate realities, namely abhidhamma method. However, when we treat the term "lokuttara" as a Pali adjective, we can extend it to other phenomena and situations as well. Steve agreed with my statement by saying Yes to: "Thus, Ariyamaggo and lokuttaramaggo are the same." Your agreement is good. Now, let's derive the equivalent phenomena that can match the expression "lokuttara dana" in the case of actions done by a Sotaapanna. And one of the best ways to do is to first find out the definition of the technical term "Sotaapanno". The Buddha made sure that we had a ready definition for "sotaapanno" in the following conversation between him and Saariputta. "`Sotaapanno, sotaapanno'ti hidam, Saariputta, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, Saariputta, sotaapanno"ti? "Yo hi, Bhante, iminaa ariyena a.t.than`gikena maggena samannaagato ayam vuccati sotaapanno, svaayam aayasmaa evamnaamo evamgotto"ti. "Saadhu saadhu, Saariputta! Yo hi, Saariputta, iminaa ariyena a.t.than`gikena maggena samannaagato ayam vuccati sotaapanno, svaayam aayasmaa evamnaamo evamgotto"ti. "Saariputta, this name `Sotaapanno, Sotaapanno' is spoken. What exactly is Sotaapanno?" "Bhante, the one who is complete with this Noble Eightfold Path is called Sotaapanno. That Venerable has such a name, such a line." "Excellent! Excellent! Saariputta, the one who is complete with this Noble Eightfold Path is called Sotaapanno. That Venerable has such a name, such a line." The above quote comes from Section 1001, Dutiya Saariputta Suttam, Sotaapatattisamyuttam, Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. According to that definition, a Sotaapanna is complete with Noble Eightfold Path. Earlier, we have seen that Steve has agreed with my equating of Ariyamaggo with Lokuttaramaggo. Then, we can expect him to agree with restating Noble Eightfold Path as Transworldly Eightfold Path, where the adjective "transworldly" stands for the Pali adjective "lokuttara". The next step is for us to find out if we could apply the adjective "Noble" to each component of the eight components of the Noble Eightfold Path. If we gave green light to that application, we get the following equivalent expressions. Right View - Sammaadi.t.thi becomes Noble View – Ariyadi.t.thi. Right Thinking – Sammaasankappo – becomes Noble Thinking – Ariyasankappo. Right Speech – Sammaavaacaa – becomes Noble Speech – Ariyavaacaa. Right Action – Sammaakammanto – becomes Noble Action – Ariyakammanto. Once we get Ariyakammanto, we also get Lokuttarakammanto, Transworldly Action. As a final step, we need to check what Transworldly Action can include among many possible actions that a Sotaapanno can do. Needless to say, the action of donating one's possessions to other people or sentient beings or entities counts as Right Action, or Noble Action. As soon as we realize that the action of donation done by a Sotaapanno is Right Action or Noble Action, we also come to know that it is Transworldly Action, which is Lokuttarakammanto in Pali. The action of donation is Daanakammanto in Pali, which is lokuttarakammato if done by a Sotaapanno. Therefore, we now know that Lokuttara Daana is a specific case of Sammaakammanto done by a Sotaapanno because the Buddha defines a Sotaapanno as "the one who is complete with this Noble Eightfold Path." With kind regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: Hi Suan, Herman, All > Some comments and questions below. > Yes, Herman. The term "lokuttaram" is an adjective to refer to any deeds of those who are Ariyaa - from Sotaapanna to Arahants. > I would of thought that any akusala citta/cetasikas/deed of a Sotapanna could not be considered lokuttara? > Thus, for example, if a Sotaapanna carries out the right thinking, that thinking is lokuttara thinking. If he made a donation to a charity such as Salvos, that donation is lokuttara donation.> > In fact, Herman, the adjectives "lokuttara" and "ariya" are > interchangeable equivalents. At the moment of akusala citta for a sotapanna, I would think that that citta/cetasika would still be considered ariyan, because the defilements of wrong view etc have been completely eradicated? But I don't think an ariyan akusala citta/cetasika could be considered lokuttara? > Thus, Ariyamaggo and lokuttaramaggo are the same. Yes. > > With kind regards, > > > > Suan Rgds Steve 48632 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 3:03am Subject: Excluded from the cure? Great Fortune egberdina Hi Phil, Good to hear from you again. I started to reply, and then I realised it was going to be a long, long post. So I started again, and will just be responding to specific points here and there, in seperate posts. I like the way you write, and my reply will be just what comes to mind. A bit like a conversation, really. > > I do not seek to dissuade you from your confidence in believing > you > > need a solid intellectual understanding before anything else. > > > > You may find it useful to reflect on other ways of looking at it. > > Ph: Yes, though hard to imagine that I will give up faith in the > Buddha's teaching - and it is teaching. Thus there is listening (or > reaading) first and learning starting from there, gradually. Or more > suddenly when the conditions are right, as they were more often in > the Buddha's day, for the monks who had the great fortune to be > listening to him. > My brother, who went through a Buddhist phase, corresponded with one of my cousins who was living in Thailand for a while. My brother was writing along the lines of how great it must be to live in a country so shaped by the Buddha's teachings etc etc. The reply was that the devout neighbour next door hadn't talked to his other neighbour for years, and the one upstairs yelled at his wife and kids all day. The message was that people are the same all over the world. People from all over the world, from any culture, can come to realise life isn't all that it is cracked up to be. I think that anyone who has an inkling of the truth of the First Noble Truth is indeed fortunate in having access to the Teachings. But I do not think that it is possible to meaningfully teach, or acquire by faith, the First Noble Truth. The reality of suffering must dawn on people, and then it becomes it's own prompting to find a way out. It's good writing with you, Phil Kind Regards Herman 48633 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 4:07am Subject: Satipatthaana (07) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' Again as in 15 contemplations on 'breathing', these 15 contemplations on 'posture' are also on 'ruupa' or material phenomena. 1. Contemplation on 'going' [of body] After the section on breathing, The Buddha continued to preach section on posture as a meditation method. The Buddha said, 'Puna ca.para.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. This has a bit been explained in the previous post. This contemplation is 'walking meditation'. This contemplation is about movements that arise when one is moving with upright body with foot- step one after another. If there is movement of 'the whole body' in lying posture or sitting posture or standing posture and if this movement can be perceived then this can also be contemplated along with contemplation on those 3 postures. But it will not be walking meditation as one is not walking. What The Buddha said was_ Puna_again that is after breathing meditation there is another meditation. Ca means 'or'. That is breathing can be contemplated. Or postures can be contemplated. Capara.m is made up of 'ca' and 'apara.m'. Apara means 'other'. So puna caparam menas there is another meditation. Bhikkhave_O! Monks. Idha bhikkhu gacchanto vaa_the monk or the meditator in this sasana (Buddha's teachings) when going, gacchaamiiti_going like this, pajaanaati_perceives,understands, realizes as things happen. This sentence 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati' is very beautiful and hard to understand for beginners. To the worst, it is more difficult for those who do not have any experiential realization on things that arise when walking. This needs practical invlovement. This means that such experience can never be achieved by thinking, reading, reflecting, listening and including reading all these scripts that I have been typing unless one rises from lying or sitting and starts to walk and contemplate on walking or going. Initially concentration has been set up by sitting meditation when breathing meditation is cultivated. As sabbe sankhaara aniccaa or all conditioned things are impermanent, concentration which is also sankhaara dhamma comes and goes. Depending on individuals, a good concentration can also arise when walking. Even this walking meditation may make faster achievement of concentration. If there is no mental concentration, dhamma will not be seen when walking. Instead, the meditator will perceive that 'he' who is 'a self' 'a being' 'a life' is standing and then moves to walk through different phases of walking like 1. lift-heel(R), 2.swing-on(R), 3. stand-on-heel(L), 4. heel-strike (R), 5. stand-on-heel (R), 6. lift- heel (L) and so on. Again, here, some may argue whether concentration alone can help seeing realities. Seeing of realities is 'realization' or pa.tivedha. This does not arise in 'mere readers or mere thinkers'. And this may even not arise in 'practitioners' when there are no conditions for realization. First let us assume 'we stand with two feet together'. Or even this can be practically done by implementing right now putting aside the print-out of this copy. The meditator is standing. Two feet are put together. The mind is well concentrated and knows what is what, in full implication, at full length, to the deepest extent. The mind is not static in satipatthaana. He is fully aware that knee are stretched (vayo), body is erect (vayo), heels are pressed by the weight of the body and there is sensation of hardness at heel. The meditator does not need to 'think in this way'. The above passage is what the meditator is perceiving while he is standing. There arises a mind to move the body. He knows it as soon as it arises as naama-dhamma. That mind causes consciousness-born material called vayo. Among 6 different vayos this mind generates 'angamangaanusaarii vayo'. Anga means 'part' 'limb'. Angamanga is made up of 'anga + anga'. Anu means 'along' 'after' 'behind' 'through out'. Angamangaanusaarii means 'vayo' that goes along 'part' by 'part', 'part' after 'part'. When there arise a mind that want to move a body part there also arise a physical phenomena called vayo. This vayo goes from cortical cells of the brain down to the periphery of limb concerned. This is motor activity. Physically these are performed by nervous system, musculoskeletal system, locomotor system and so on. We can make a fist instantaneously as we want and open and close that fist as we want. But in actual term or in real sense or ultimately there is no we that perform anything. There is a time delay from arising of idea to move a body part to actual moving of that part. Idea arises in cerebral cortex or brain bark in cortical neurone. This is transmitted down to motor cortex and after association with other information (electrical data in nerves of other brain areas) the data is brought down through corticospinal tract of nerve fibres. Nerves descend down the spinal cord and when exits the data enters ventral roots of spinal cord and then goes to nerve plexus. From the plexus the data is brought down to specific nerve that supplies specific muscles that will implement the action wanted. There does exist delay. That is from a single cell in the cerebral cortex down to muscles that perform intended movement. The delay can be measured scientifically with 'nerve conduction study'. Nerve conductions are in milliseconds depending on type of nerve fibres and presence or absence of nerve disease. Say scientists can measure these movements (nerve condution) in nanoseconds. This is just one 1000 millionth second. Nerve condution studies are recorded in neurophysiology and nerves cannot carry faster than their capacity. Cittas happen 1,000,000 million in a blink. A blink is not a second. Even if it is a second, the lifespan of a citta is 1,000,000 millionth second where nerve conduction is just about 1,000 millionth second. Any way citta lives shorter than ruupa (vayo or any ruupa). Now the meditator recognise the earliest idea. That is he recognises that there arises a citta that want to move a body part. Because of that mind there arise consciousness-born ruupa-vayo called angamangaanusaarii vayo. This vayo interacts with other co-existing ruupa namely pathavii, tejo, apo and finally according its function angamangaanusaarii vayo causes movements of body parts as intended. Now the meditator recognizes 'there arise a mind that wants to move the body part' and he also recognize the movements per se or the movements themselves. So he realizes both the cause and the events. From standing with 2 feet together position, his body or trunk sways a bit forward and he also notes this phenomena. The right heel is being lifted and he perceives all movements in heel lifting step by step. Because of the mind, the heel (R) becomes increasingly lighter and lighter and finally it is in the air as it has been lifted. From there the leg (R) is swung forward and this is also perceived step by step. While swinging, the body is put its weight on the heel (L). Just before heel-strike, the leg becomes increasingly heavier and heavier and finally drops (apo effect) to the ground and heel-strike happens. After that the body is swung forward and put the weight on the right heel and then the cycle is repeated. This seems like 'commentarial descriptions'. Does this really happen in meditators? These descriptions are for beginners. What is matter is to cognise 'ruupa' as 'ruupa' and 'naama' as 'naama' according to their existence, appearing, dissolution. When the meditator does not know 'naama' and 'ruupa' but just walking very slowly and thinking is not proper contemplation or proper bhavanaa. Satipatthaana or vipassanaa is to see 'naama' or to see 'ruupa' in their fullest essence. That is 'they arise'. The arising has 'causes'. They vansih. The vanishing has 'causes'. Walking meditation [gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati] is a kind of satipatthaana. It is vipassanaa. It is body-contemplation or kaayaanupassanaa. It is kaayaanupassanaa vipassanaa. At the end of section on posture, The Buddha included 'samudaya dhammaanupassii viharati' or 'dwelling perceiving origination of posture', 'vaya dhammaanupassii viharati' or 'dwelling perceiving dissolution of posture', and 'samudaya-vaya dhammaanupassii viharati' or 'dwelling perceiving origination of posture and dwelling perceiving the dissolution of posture. This indicates that 'walking meditation' is about satipatthaana. It is about vipassanaa. It is for liberation. As we can see these indicates that 'naama' or 'ruupa' do not exist permanently. They arise and then vanish. Arising has a cause. And dissolution also has a cause. When walking, 'naama' is seen. When walking 'ruupa' is seen. They arise. They vanish. This is impermanent. This is anicca. All people since born want permanancy. Because of moha or avijjaa and tanha or craving. Because of avijjaa and tanhaa they all want to be permanent. This is 'my body'. This is 'me'. But when the meditator 'really' sees what is naama and what is ruupa then he does not accept the notion of permancy or 'nicca'. This is the first point 'nicca-sannaa' is abolished. When permanently abolished, there will not be any more delusion on 'existence of self'. There is no self at all. For this, The Buddha included that 'anissito' and 'na ca upaadiyati'. The meditator does not depend on 'avijjaa & tanha-constructed self' and he is not on the ground of self that is deluded by avijjaa and tanha. So he is at least temporarily liberated from binding of tanha or craving. So when 'naama' is seen or when 'ruupa' is seen in their fullest essence (arise, persist, vanish_impermanent, unsatisfactory, self- less) the meditator is facing 'tadanga nirodho' or 'temporary loka nibbana'. Because there is no avijja and no tanha when he sees naama or ruupa in their fullest essence. He sees that 'naama' or 'ruupa' is suffering and unsatisfactory. This is accomplishment of pari~n~naa kicca or realization of dukkha. At the same time he eliminates avijjaa and tanhaa. This is accomplishment of 'pahaana kicca' or realization of samudaya sacca while it is eliminated. He is facing 'tadanga nirodho' and this is realization of nirodha sacca. When he is seeing naama or ruupa this means he is developing the Path leading to cessation of the unsatisfactoriness. All these happen when the meditator becomes mature and see naama or ruupa with experiential knowledge. This is realization. These are 4 loki saccas or 4 mundane truths and when this is brought forward down to the stream and when the stream is reached and entered then there arise realization of lokuttara sacca through path-knpwledge or magga naana that is present in magga citta or path-consciousness. People may be saying 'I am posting theory' 'I am posting abhidhamma' 'I am posting commentarial things'. But if they follow what The Buddha taught they themselves will see both lokii and lokuttara saccas through many different methods of meditation. There is no single recipe that suits to everyone. Culapanthaka was just instructed to recite 'rajo harana.m' 'rajo haran.am'. From that he accomplished all arahatta kiccas along with ruupa jhaanas and abhinnaa. Whoever attain 'path-knowledge' when listening to Dhamma or when cooking or when walking or when reading this means that they pass through 'the Path-satipatthaana'. Without satipatthaana there is no reason that one can reach nibbana. That is why The Buddha said 'ekaayano maggo' 'the only way' to nibbana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48634 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 4:19am Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term htootintnaing Suan wrote: Dear Steve, Nina, Connie, Sarah, Chris, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all How are you? Therefore, we now know that Lokuttara Daana is a specific case of Sammaakammanto done by a Sotaapanno because the Buddha defines a Sotaapanno as "the one who is complete with this Noble Eightfold Path." With kind regards, Suan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Suan and all, This is interesting. But I do not agree. When sotaapanno is offering (daana) in our sense it is still lokii daana and it is not lokuttara daana. But at the time when he gives or at arond that time if sotaapatti-phala- citta or stream-entering-fruition-consciousness arise then it may be called lokuttaraa daana. But this is still not true. With respect, Htoo Naing 48635 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/9/05 12:33:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: ... > ... Our tendency to reify our experience is not limited to pa~n~natti, > despite our intellectual grasp of conditionality. Our ignorance-defiled > conceptualization applies acroos the board, even to paramattha dhammas. > I'm not discussing > belief and theory, but the more subtle, subliminal grasping at > mind-made, self-existing entities, whether as subject or as object. But how is that ignorance to be lessened and eventually overcome if not by coming to directly understand the difference between namas and rupas (as a first step)? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I fail to understand how what you just rhetorically asked relates to what you quoted from me. In any case, I *do* distinguish namas from rupas, and I have said so. --------------------------------------------- I think the difference between namas and rupas is one that is not readily apparent, even at an intellectual level. Is pain nama or rupa? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what you mean by (physical) 'pain'. When most people use the term, they mean an unpleasant physical sensation - a pressure or ache or sting etc, and that is a rupa. If, instead, one is referring to the *feeling* of that rupa as unpleasant, that is nama. And the disliking of either of these is also nama, a different nama - a mental reaction. Okay? --------------------------------------------- What about tiredness, exhaustion? Do we not confuse hearing consciousness and the sound that is heard? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Not generally - at least I don't to a great extent. But the tendency to confuse is certainly there, of course. It is easy to conflate consistently co-occurring and mutually dependent phenomena. Hearing *consciousness*, however, is always known, at least so far as I can tell, only by inference, after the fact. At the time we hear a sound, all that is experienced is the sound - and immediately afterwards we know we heard it. The thing is, the nama of consciousness is *always* present in the sense that there is nothing experienced of any sort without the experiencing. When there is no experiencing, there is nothing at all. Vi~n~nana is the "stage" on which all experiences occur, but it isn't a garden-variety kind of stage. When there's nothing on stage, the stage is gone as well. ------------------------------------------- In other posts you have talked about the hearing event in a way that suggests the two, although distinguishable in theory, are not distinguishable in practice at the moment of their occurring (perhaps I have misunderstood you). ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think you have. Consciousness is not an independent entity, it is a fundamental operation that arises co-occuringly and interdependently with other phenomena, never exisiting *on its own*, but it is certainly distinguishable. The inside and outside of a box are distinguishable - they are not the same, but they are also interdependent and inseparable. (But, just to make another side point, vi~n~nana isn''t all we talk about when we speak of nama, though it is the main nama you are addressing. To distinguish nama from rupa is to distinguish mental phenomena from physical.) ---------------------------------------- > The hardness we cognize > is not the mere hardness we directly experience. Our sa~n~na is defiled, > even as it recognizes paramattha dhammas. Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it differently? ----------------------------------- Howard: No, I see that exactly the same as you. I was speaking, however, of our ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of ignorance. When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), there is true and valid experiencing. ---------------------------------- Sanna itself is not defiled, in that it always performs its function of marking the object. ---------------------------------- Howard: I'm not speaking of the marking phase so much as the recognition phase. And it is not helpful to think, on the basis of technical terminological usage, that our recognition or perception is undefiled. It is very much defiled. If sa~n~na, in its recognition function, were undefiled, we'd be "far along" already. As to how well sa~n~na fuctions in its marking operation in worldlings, I'm not sure - but I would bet that it is also quite imperfect. ------------------------------------ > Ignorance "has its way with us". We are > not even close to being free of it, it seems to me. Yes, agreed ;-)). But at a moment of satipatthana, the consciousness is free of ignorance, and every moment of satipatthana brings us closer to freedom from ignorance. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah ... so? How many insightful moments do we have? And why do you think that repeated study of "facts" is enough to cultivate such insight? How many ariyans do you suppose there are in university Buddhist Studies programs? (Precious few, I'll bet!!! ;-) --------------------------------------- Jon =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48636 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 5:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - It is good to be reminded of that good research work by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Sarah. The post you were referring to was dated July 15, but I had already forgotten its detail. So I had to go back and refreshed the memory. This is a clear example of impermanent sanna. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > hi Tep,(Connie, Chris) > > Good to read all your posts. On this earlier one: > (snipped)> ... > Tep, it is a very interesting article and I agreed with most of BB's > conclusions, i.e that jhana attainment is not given as a pre- > requisite for sotapanna attainment. I think the same is true for all > ariyan attainment and I responded in detail to BB (and posted on DSG) with comments on his reservations on this. > 48637 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita - I am glad to read the clarification, although this subject matter is far from being thoroughly clear. However, to avoid further "speculation" I'd rather stop at this point. Hopefully, clear comprehension will soon follow ^_^ Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend Tep who wrote: > > >implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. > > Not so, friend, but Rather: > They are inseparable & mutually dependent: > What ever one feels, perceives, thinks, attends to, > analyzes & intends, of that one is also conscious... > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > <...> 48638 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 6:21am Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term seisen_au Hi Htoo, Suan and All, Suan, thanks for your reply to my questions, I need to investigate some things before i can reply. >Htoo wrote: > When sotaapanno is offering (daana) in our sense it is still lokii > daana and it is not lokuttara daana. > > But at the time when he gives or at arond that time if > sotaapatti-phala- > citta or stream-entering-fruition-consciousness arise then it may be > called lokuttaraa daana. Htoo, I dont see why any daana that arises around the same time as a phala citta would be called lokuttara daana? > But this is still not true. Thats my understanding as well. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing Rgds Steve 48639 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable - conditions. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Herman) - I very much like what you are saying here about pa~n~na, meaning, of course, that I saee it the same way! ;-) However, I you sure this perspective is compatible with Abhidhamma? (I'm not so sure.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/9/05 1:37:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: Hi Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi Howard, Nina, Jon, ... > I am wondering of late whether there can be any understanding of > conditionality that is not conceptual? Do the Suttas suggest anywhere > that there can be "direct knowing" of conditionality? It seems to me > that any understanding of conditionality must be based in part on past > experience. I do understand why you say this, but I believe the knowledge of conditionality spoken of in the suttas, being an aspect of panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana, is a 'direct knowing' of conditionality. Although there is only ever one object of consciousness and hence also of the mental factor of panna, the scope of what can be known by panna is not subject to the same 'single object' rule. The detail that panna may konw about dhammas is potentially of vast scope (as in the case of a Buddha). Jon /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48640 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 7:13am Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term abhidhammika Dear Htoo, Steve, Nina, Connie, Sarah, Chris, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, and all How are you? Htoo wrote: "But I do not agree." It is Okay. Indeed, it is easier to say that one does not agree or things like that. But, it is far harder to provide textual quotes to back up one's agreement or disagreement. As soon as one takes a position, it becomes one's responsibility to offer textual citations and sensible reasoning. I have done both textual citation and reasoning to support my position. If someone disagreed with what I had offered, that someone will have to offer textual citations and relevant reasoning based on those citations. Then, I will look at those citations and reasoning, and respond to them accordingly. With kind regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Suan wrote: Dear Steve, Nina, Connie, Sarah, Chris, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all How are you? Therefore, we now know that Lokuttara Daana is a specific case of Sammaakammanto done by a Sotaapanno because the Buddha defines a Sotaapanno as "the one who is complete with this Noble Eightfold Path." With kind regards, Suan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Suan and all, This is interesting. But I do not agree. When sotaapanno is offering (daana) in our sense it is still lokii daana and it is not lokuttara daana. But at the time when he gives or at arond that time if sotaapatti-phala- citta or stream-entering-fruition-consciousness arise then it may be called lokuttaraa daana. But this is still not true. With respect, Htoo Naing 48641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 8:00am Subject: FW: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Hi Charles D, ---------- Ch: Do you see rebirth-consciousness as the basis for the life-continuum? Or is life-continuum not a term you use? ------ N: Yes. The kamma that produced the rebirth-consciousness also produces the succeeding life-continuum, and then it produces life-continuum throughout life, in between the processes of cittas. This keeps the continuity in the life of an individual, there never is a moment without citta. _____ Ch: I think there are lots of Hindus who would disagree with the statement: "...only the Buddha could go to past lives to an extent nobody else ever could." Especially since it was not of major importance to the Buddha. ------ N: Understandable, they see the Buddha differently.We read in the Path of Discrimination about six kinds of knowledge of the Buddha not shared by disciples, among them his omniscience and his unobstructed knowledge. There were the right conditions for him to have such knowledges. ------- Ch:Though it is true that every thing, arises due to causes and gives rise to effects. When I stated "stuff just happens" I was alluding to the Buddha's point about not all things should be seen as reward or punishment (the old view of "due to Karma"). ----- N: that is right. This is explained in a sutta. ----- Ch: AND good last paragraph, worth repeating: "Right understanding helps most, also for our social life. ----- N: glad you appreciate this. Nina. 48642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. nilovg Hi Agrios, op 07-08-2005 22:24 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > I just stated that I am aware of sankhára as a "determination" > or a "determinant" or "initiation", a constitutive factor on which > something else depends, or is determined by it. > PRIOR to any formation. > Clearly not something formed, formation of any sort but > act of forming or initiation rather. Since there is cetana > involved it is quite complex and very dynamic phenomenon. > > I also stated, that sanna and vinnana are sankhara khandas, > cittasankharo khanda to be precise (manosankháram abhisankharoti). > They are very basic sankharas, one of 3 groups: > body initiations, speech initiations and > mental initiations and can be experienced, whether some monks > have them on their list of sankharas or not. > > In Bhumija Sutta Samyutta Nikaya XII.25: > "When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily > intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain arise > internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is > intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual > intention as the cause. > > "From ignorance as a requisite condition, then either of one's own > accord one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that > pleasure & pain arise internally, or because of others one fabricates > bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise > internally. Either alert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account > of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or unalert one > fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain > arise internally. (Similarly with verbal & intellectual fabrications.) N: I use the PTS translation and also compared B.B. translation. For alert or unalert: sampajano or asampajano: with understanding or without it. The terms fabrication are not used in these translations. B.B.: A translation makes a lot of difference. This sutta explains about kamma through body, speech and mind and the D.O. The Pali term kaaya, vaci and manosancetanaa are used. Thus with cetanaa. Kamma is cetanaa. ---- The Buddha spoke in the suttas also about sankhaarakkhandha as different from the other four khandhas. He also spoke about sankhaara dhammas: as being impermanent and dukkha. Then he said that all dhammas are anattaa, including the unconditioned dhamma. Nina. 48643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction and Question, skilfullness. nilovg Hi Charlie, op 07-08-2005 19:48 schreef Charlie Patton op cdpatton2003@...:> I started reading about Zen and Taoism and > found it quite interesting. One thing led to another and I was learning to > read Chinese in my spare time, because I found the translations of the Tao > Te Ching and the Daimond Sutra so variable between translators, I wanted to > read the Chinese for myself. It has taken a good six years to learn > classical Chinese and collect the references needed to decipher the > transliterations and such. ------ N: Thank you for giving your background, this is really interesting. Learning Chinese in six years, including all those kanjis. > -------- > Ch: Thanks for this reference. I will look into that discussion group on > translation issues. I take it, after reading the guidelines, that it might > be a bit off-topic here? > --------------------------------------------------- N: Best to ask the mods. . -------- > Ch: Let me give the passages in full. I had truncated them to just the > stock phrase used with each of the four right efforts.> > Patton's version of the Chinese (MA.189.24): > "And what is right skillfulness?... he initiates the desire, > pursues skillfulness, endevours, rouses the mind, and ceases. This is said > to be right skillfulness." ...It does not simply refer to the ceasing of the evil dharmas, > since it is the same treatment of all four cases, evil and good. Well, in > any case, I will see if the Pali group can help with this. ------ N: I am also interested, perhaps it means: he is detached, nirodha? I went to your website. Dharma wicky reference: the Pali list had a lot of correspondance about this and are also working on it. I do not know much about wicky, but you will be interested. Nina. 48644 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable - conditions. upasaka_howard Hi again - My message dated 8/9/05 10:09:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, with typos corrected (!), is the following: Hi, Jon (and Herman) - I very much like what you are saying here about pa~n~na, meaning, of course, that I see it the same way! ;-) However, are you sure this perspective is compatible with Abhidhamma? (I'm not so sure.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48645 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 9:24am Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term htootintnaing Suan wrote: Dear Htoo, Steve, Nina, Connie, Sarah, Chris, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, and all How are you? >Htoo wrote: >"But I do not agree." Suan wrote: It is Okay. Indeed, it is easier to say that one does not agree or things like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. It is really easy. But agreeing or not agreeing is not for textual support. Because they both are not facts. They are just opinion. Opinion may differ among people as different people have different backgrounds. However, facts have to be supported by evidence whether there exist texts or not. I just say 'I do not agree'. This is not 'expression of facts'. It is expression of opinion. Opinion may or may not need textual support. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Suan: But, it is far harder to provide textual quotes to back up one's agreement or disagreement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That will depend on habit of doing such backing up. But backing up may or may not be true when they are not true facts. When I was giving my opinion I did not need any provision of textual support even though there may be evidences somewhere in the texts. Example is 'samma-samaadhi' of Noble Eightfold Path at the time when magga citta arises is not of ruupa jhaana or aruupa jhaana. Just before magga citta arises, one has to release any of these three things. They are kaama-object, ruupajhaana-object, and aruupajhaana-object. As long as a citta holds any of these 3 objects that citta is not magga citta or phala citta. When it is not magga or phala citta that citta is not lokuttara citta. So all lokuttara cittas are not kaama-cittas, not ruupajhaana cittas, and not aruupajhaana cittas and vice versa. That is kaama-cittas are not lokuttara cittas, ruupa-jhaana cittas are not lokuttara cittas, and aruupajhaana cittas are not lokuttara cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Suan: As soon as one takes a position, it becomes one's responsibility to offer textual citations and sensible reasoning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not take any position. I did not take any position. I will not be taking any position. There was no Htoo. There is no Htoo. There will not be any Htoo at all. I do not know who is taking 'a position'. Textual citations are for texts experts, who may or may not realize any Dhamma at all. This may sound like 'a stirring spoon, who cannot taste anything' when Dhamma are not properly realized. Reasoning is a general matter. Everyone has a reason whenever he or she does something. Whether it is sensible or not sensible will also depend on external judgement. That is external judges will say it is sensible or it is not sensible depending on what they think is right. But the doer has already done the thing and there was a reason when that thing was done. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Suan: I have done both textual citation and reasoning to support my position. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see. You have a position. You have taken a position. You get a position. But I do not have any position. I do not need any textual citation or reasoning as you said because I do not have any position, unlike you. It is good that you have a position. I am delighted that you have a position and you are able to support your position with 'both textual citation and reasoning', which is really good. Excellent! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Suan: If someone disagreed with what I had offered, that someone will have to offer textual citations and relevant reasoning based on those citations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I express my opinion I do not need anything like textual citations or reasoning. Because agreeing and not agreeing are not supportive to facts. Examples; if 100 people agree on a statement, that statement does not become a fact. Because they all express their opinion and opinion is not a fact. But facts always need support or evidence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Suan: Then, I will look at those citations and reasoning, and respond to them accordingly. With kind regards, Suan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see. You have got a position while I do not have any position. It is good that you are able to support with textual evidence and reasoning. Keep on maintaining the tradition. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 48646 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 9:36am Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term htootintnaing Dear Steve, I already said it is still not true. Please see below for our discussion. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve wrote: Hi Htoo, Suan and All, Suan, thanks for your reply to my questions, I need to investigate some things before i can reply. >Htoo wrote: > When sotaapanno is offering (daana) in our sense it is still lokii > daana and it is not lokuttara daana. > But at the time when he gives or at arond that time if > sotaapatti-phala-citta or stream-entering-fruition-consciousness arise then it may be called lokuttaraa daana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: Htoo, I dont see why any daana that arises around the same time as a phala citta would be called lokuttara daana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have never heard 'lokuttara daana'. This word was brought up by Suan. I just gave my opinion that 'then it may be called lokuttaraa daana'. Please see above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [Htoo's old post] > But this is still not true. > Thats my understanding as well. > With respect, > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: Rgds Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Steve, all lokuttara cittas are output of bhaavana. So they all are bhaavanaa kusala. They are not daana-kusala, which invlove kaaya-dvaara or body-door and vaci-dvaara or verbal-door or speech. When I saw 'lokuttara daana' I felt strange as it is very unusual. There may or may not be textual support for that word 'lokuttara daana'. But the word 'lokuttara daana' itself contradicts the basic definitions. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48647 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 10:20am Subject: HELP ! HELP ! HELP ! htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Whoever is good at Dhamma, could you please explain the following passage that is written at accesstoinsight in Mahanidana Sutta DN 15? Thanks in advance, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Eight Emancipations) "Ananda, there are these eight emancipations. Which eight? "Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation. "Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the second emancipation. "One is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third emancipation. "With the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fourth emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, thinking, 'Infinite consciousness,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the fifth emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' one enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, one enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. This is the seventh emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, one enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth emancipation. 48648 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 10:39am Subject: Eight Emancipations htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Mahanidana sutta says 8 vimokkhas. They are translated as emancipation. Emancipation (noun) _ 1. the act of emancipating 2. the process of emancipating Emancipate (transitive verb)_ 1. to free from restraints 2. to free from control 3. to free from the power of another 4. to free from bondage 5. to release from paternal care and responsibility 6. to free from any controlling influence So when say 'there are 8 emancipations' then this may mean 'there are 8 process of freeing' 'there are 8 acts of freeing'. There are more to talk about emancipations or vimokkha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48649 From: nina Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 10:46am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 179, 180 nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 179, 180. Intro: After the Visuddhimagga has dealt with the cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha accompanying kusala citta and akusala citta, it deals with the cetasikas that accompany indeterminate dhammas, following the Tripartite division of the Dhammasangani: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and indeterminate (avyaakata, neither kusala nor akusala) dhamma. The cittas and cetasikas which are indeterminate dhamma include vipaakacittas with their accompanying cetasikas and kiriyacittas with their accompanying cetasikas. It is essential to remember which cittas are cause, namely, kusala cittas and akusala cittas, which cittas are results, vipaakacittas and which cittas are inoperative, neither cause nor result, kiriyacittas. Thus, there are four jaatis (classes): kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. The Visuddhimagga deals first with the cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha that accompany vipaakacittas, and these may be without roots, or with roots. ----------- Text Vis.: 179. III. As regards the 'indeterminate', firstly, the 'resultant indeterminate' (34)-(69) are twofold, classed as those without root-cause and those with root-cause. Those associated with resultant consciousness without root-cause (34)-(41), (50)-(56) are those without root-cause. *** N: As we have seen under the section of kusala citta (Tiika to Vis. XIV, 85), kusala kamma can produce as result: eight kinds of sahetuka vipaakacittas, vipaakacittas with roots, which arise as rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-citta (life-continuum), dying-consciousness and during a process after the javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) as retention, tadaaramma.na cittas, if that process takes its complete course. Kusala kamma also produces eight kinds of ahetuka vipaakacittas, without roots. They are: the five kinds of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.), receiving-consciousness (sapa.ticchana-citta) arising after the sense-cognition, and two types of investigation-consciousness (santiira.na-citta). Akusala kamma can produce seven kinds of ahetuka vipaakacittas. It does not produce sahetuka vipaakacittas, vipaakacittas with roots. -------- Text Vis.: Herein, firstly, those associated with the profitable resultant (34) and unprofitable resultant (50) eye-consciousness are the four given in the texts as such, namely: contact (i), volition (ii), life (vii), steadiness of consciousness (xlix), which amount to five with attention (xxx) as the only or-whatever-state. These same kinds are associated with ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness (35)-(38), (51)-(54). ---- N: Seeing and the other sense-cognitions are results produced by kamma. Depending on the kamma that rpoduces them they are kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. The cittas mentioned above are ahetuka vipaakacittas, not accompanied by roots. They are accompanied by the seven Œuniversals¹, cetasikas that accompany each citta. Here only five cetasikas are mentioned, since feeling and saññaa are not included in sankhaarakkhandha. They are accompanied by the minimum amount of cetasikas. Seeing, for example arises at the eyebase and sees visible object, it only performs the function of seeing. It does not need other cetasikas such as vitakka, applied thinking, or vicaara, sustained thinking. The sense-cognitions have to be accompanied by the universals. Without contact, that contacts visible object there could not be seeing. Without concentration (ekaggataa cetasika, here translated as steadiness of consciousness) that focusses on visible object there could not be seeing. Each of the universals performs its function and assists seeing. It is the same for the other sense-cognitions. ****** Text Vis. 180: Those associated with both kinds of resultant mind-element (39), (55) come to eight by adding applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv) and resolution (xxix). **** N: Mind-element, mano-dhaatu, that is ahetuka vipaaka is sampaticchaana-citta, receiving-consciousness. This is twofold: kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. It succeeds seeing-consciousness and the other sense-cognitions. It does not see, but it experiences visible object while it performs the function of receiving the object. It receives as it were visible object, sound etc. from the preceding sense-cognition. Apart from the universals it is accompanied by applied thought, sustained thought and resolution. It needs the universals and in addition these three cetasikas for the performance of its function of receiving the object. ------- Text Vis.: Likewise those associated with the threefold mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (40), (41), (56). ____ N: Mind-consciousness element, mano-viññaa.nadhaatu, includes all cittas other than the sense-cognitions and the cittas that are mind-element. Here the Visuddhimagga deals with three ahetuka vipaakacittas classified as mind-element, namely: Santiira.na-citta that is ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, or ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by happy feeling, or ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta. The latter is always accompanied by indifferent feeling. Santiira.na-citta performs the function of investigating the object and then it succeeds receiving-consciousness, and it can also perform the function of retention in a process of cittas after the javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas). Moreover, santiira.na-citta that is kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling or akusala vipaakacitta can also perform the functions of rebirth, life-continuum and dying. In that case it is not arising in a process of cittas. -------- Text Vis.: But here(40) that accompanied by joy should be understood to have happiness (v) also in addition to that. ------ N: In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere that are accompanied by happy feeling, also piiti (rapture, here translated as happiness) arises together with them. When santiira.nacitta investigates an extraordinarily pleasant object it is accompanied by happy feeling and thus also by rapture. ****** Conclusion: It is important to know that vipaakacittas are conditioned by kusala kamma or by akusala kamma that have been performed and are accumulated. Kamma produces rebirth-consciousness, and then throughout our life kamma produces the sense-cognitions arising in processes. These experience pleasant or unpleasant objects depending on the kamma that produces them. Nobody can prevent kamma from producing seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions. On account of a desirable or undesirable object experienced through the senses defilements are likely to arise. They arise because of the unwholesome latent tendencies that have been accumulated from life to life. When we learn the difference between cittas which are cause and cittas which are results, it will help us to see that cittas arise each because of their own conditions and that they are non-self. As we have seen, kusala cittas are accompanied by sobhana cetasikas and akusala cittas are accompanied by akusala cetasikas. The vipaakacittas and kiriyacittas are also accompanied by cetasikas which are of the same jaati as the citta they accompany. The cetasikas assist the citta they accompany so that it can perform its own function. The cetasikas that accompany citta arise together with it at the same physical base, experience the same object and fall away together with it. When we learn more details about citta and cetasikas we shall have more understanding of their interdependence. **** Nina. 48650 From: nina Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 10:46am Subject: Cambodian lectures, Taking Refuge in Buddhism. nilovg Dear friends, this was our evening reading: **** Nina. 48651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. nilovg Hi Howard, op 09-08-2005 14:08 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Hearing *consciousness*, however, > is always known, at least so far as I can tell, only by inference, after the > fact. At the time we hear a sound, all that is experienced is the sound - and > immediately afterwards we know we heard it. -------- N: As you say, we know all this by inference. But this is not the point, it does not matter. What really matters; is there sati and understanding which begins to realize different characteristics? We do not have to tire ourselves by thinking and reasoning about it, this does not get us very far. ----------- Jon: Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it differently? ----------------------------------- Howard: No, I see that exactly the same as you. I was speaking, however, of our ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of ignorance. When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), there is true and valid experiencing. ----- N: This is well said, Howard. But there is more to it. When hardness is understood as only, only a kind of rupa, there can be detachment from the idea of my hardness, the hardness of my body. Eventually there will be less wrong view. ---------- Howard to Jon: Yeah ... so? How many insightful moments do we have? And why do you think that repeated study of "facts" is enough to cultivate such insight? ------- N: Good reminder, appreciated. It is actually sati with right understanding that slowly, slowly accumulate. If we want it fast: clinging agin, a self wants results. We should have firm understanding and confidence that this is the right Path, not the wrong Path of clinging and delusion. Nina. 48652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question nilovg Hi Herman, you are inspiring. op 09-08-2005 00:13 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > And the reality, for me, is that a citta is known, and only becomes > known, through the reality of anicca, not the reality of a hard and > fast though very temporary defining characteristic. THE characteristic > IS anicca, while the rupa as rupa, and the nama as nama are abstracted > concepts. ----- N: Citta cannot be known as anicca in the beginning. We can think: it falls away, it is impermanent, but that is not the realization of anicca, as you also know. You say: while the rupa as rupa, and the nama as nama are abstracted concepts. N: It sounds like it, but I still hear the late Ven. Dhammadharo say: There is beginning of knowing rupa as not: this part of my body, and nama as not: this feeling or thinking of me. Just rupa, just nama, insignificant dhammas actually. The true realization of impermanence begins at the third stage of tender insight and is sure at the first stage of principal insight. We cannot avoid these stages. Nina. 48653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Botanical Gardens - A question nilovg Dear Azita, the Buddha pointed to deep Dhamma, not to convention. He spoke about citta. I just read it in Pali, but I cannot look it up now. He put it very strongly: It is hard to illustrate, to describe. So, it must be extremely fast. Nina op 09-08-2005 02:59 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > so is the Buddha talking about cittas here? when I talk about > changing my mind, and I do it very often - change the mind, that is - > I'm referring to the conventional mind, so feel sure its not this > mind that the Buddha is addressing. 48654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some elaboration on saññaa. to Sarah nilovg Dear Sarah, I enjoyed all of your Ecards, and the animals! No idea what a K. bird is. You elaborated nicely on saññaa. We can always hear more. Herman's point is good too: to know rupa as [only] rupa, and nama as [only] nama. This is not by reasoning, but it is known by paññaa, directly. It is no conceptualisation but it may seem to be. Good to hear more about it. Jon explained to Herman that knowing dhammas as condiitoned dhammas, there is a vast scope for paññaa, not just one object. This is also true for the first stage of insight: many moments know nama and rupa through the mind-door. Several processes. As to the higher stages: this includes origination and ceasing as momentary and also under the aspect of the D.O. Here it beomes a vaster scope for paññaa. A difficult subject. For discussion perhaps? The Visuddhimagga discusses it. You may be interested to know that Ven. Dhammanando is spending the rains retreat in a cave. Nina. op 09-08-2005 06:45 schreef sarahprocterabbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > > Like now, there is the experience of visible object and without > sa~n~naa marking it at each moment there'd be no kookaburra bird, no > dolphin, no golden sands and no attachment to all that is seen and > the concepts on account of what is seen. 48655 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 1:31pm Subject: Re: HELP ! HELP ! HELP ! christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Whoever is good at Dhamma, could you please explain the following > passage that is written at accesstoinsight in Mahanidana Sutta DN 15? > > Thanks in advance, > > Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Whoever is good at Dhamma, could you please explain the following > passage that is written at accesstoinsight in Mahanidana Sutta DN 15? > > Thanks in advance, > > Htoo Naing > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Htoo, all, Maurice Walshe's translation and notes to the Digha Nikaya for this passage are included below: Walshe's translation: "'There are, Aananda, these eight liberations. [356] What are they? (1) Possessing form, one sees forms. [357] That is the first liberation. (2) Not perceiving material forms in oneself, one sees them outside. [358] That is the second liberation. (3) Thinking: "It is beautiful", one becomes intent on it. [359] That is the third. (4) By completely transcending all perception of matter, by the vanishing of the perception of sense-reactions and by non-attention to the perception of variety, thinking: "Space is infinite", one enters and abides in the Sphere of Infinite Space. That is the Fourth. (5) By transcending the Sphere of Infinite Space, thinking: "Consciousness is infinite", one enters and abides in the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness. That is the fifth. (6) By transcending the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness, thinking: "There is no thing", one enters and abides in the Sphere of No-Thingness. That is the sixth. (7) By transcending the Sphere of No-Thingness, one reaches and abides in the Sphere of Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. That is the seventh. (8) By transcending the Sphere of Neither-Perception-Nor-Non- Perception one enters and abides in the Cessation of Perception and Feeling. [360] That is the eighth liberation.'" Walshe's NOTES: 356: These are really only relative 'liberations', since one has to pass through them successively to gain true freedom. 357: Referring, as in verse 23, to the World of Form. Jhaana is here induced by observing marks on one's own body. 358: Here, the kasi.na (disc. etc., used as a meditation-object) is external to oneself. 359: By concentrating on the perfectly pure and bright colours of the kasi.na 360: Sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha or nirodha-samaapatti: a state of a kind of suspended animation, from which it is possible to break through to the state of Non- Returner or Arahant. For an illuminating account of this - to the ordinary person - mysterious state, see Nyaa.naponika, Abhikdhamma Studies (2nd ed.), 113ff metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 48656 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 3:44pm Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term egberdina Hi Suan and All, You have spent much time and much effort to back up your charge against Brahmâli Bhikkhu. You are to be praised for this. Only your academic rigour stands between speculation and fact. Personally, I am unconvinced by your reasoning, though it is clever. I am, however, unwilling to spend the time and effort to rebut you, for reasons I will explain shortly. So I will remain silent on this matter, after this post. But I do think it is important that your reasoning be thoroughly tested, as your initial charge against Brahmâli Bhikkhu and your reasoning for it, has been duplicated to other sites and made a much more public statement. I am sincerely hoping that those who have duplicated your discussion here will see that it is important to also duplicate the ongoing testing of your reasoning to the other sites, so as to not leave the false impression that the matter is closed. Which it is not. Now for the reasons why I will become silent on this matter. You recently wrote to me: "A particlar Pali term may or may not be found in the Suttas, but the expressions equivalent to that term are usually found there if that term is central to the Buddha's teachings. Sometimes, if a single Suttam cannot offer the exact counterpart, two or more Suttas can be collated and correlated to give a complete picture. And, that very ability to collate and correlate seemingly disparate pieces of information and ideas from different parts of Pali Tipi.taka to form a coherent view and understanding is what makes us Theravada Buddhists." It is clear from this that you see Theravadin Buddhism as being the very skillful interpretation of the Texts as a whole. I sincerely respect your academic rigour, and I believe THAT rigour will stand bodhiology in good stead. If your definition is generally acceptable, then I am neither a Theravadin or a bodhiologist. I am just a mass that lends itself to suffering. I do find refuge in the Dhamma, but not through an ever-compounding conceptualisation of the meanings in the Tipitaka. I am not really interested in disecting suffering to the nth degree. May we all find appeasement. AN 5.8.3 Then a certain bhikkhu approached The Blessed One, worshipped, sat on side and said: Venerable sir, it is said living according to the Teaching. How does a bhikkhu live according to the Teaching? Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful things, in a series of questions and answers. He spends the time learning them, neglects seclusions, does not develop internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu learns much, does not live according to the Teaching. Again, bhikkhu the bhikkhu explains the Teaching to others in detail as he has learnt and understood it. He spends the time teaching others, neglects seclusions, does not develop internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu makes known the Teaching much, does not live according to the Teaching. Again, bhikkhu the bhikkhu recites the Teaching as he has learnt and understood it. He spends the time reciting the Teaching, neglects seclusions, does not develop internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu recites the Teaching much, does not live according to the Teaching. Again, bhikkhu the bhikkhu thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching as he has learnt and understood it. He spends the time thinking about the teaching, neglects seclusions, does not develop internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu thinks about the Teaching much, does not live according to the Teaching. Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful things, in a series of questions and answers. He does not spend the time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to the Teaching. Bhikkhu, I have taught you how, much learning is done, much teaching is done, much reciting is done, much thinking is done and the living according to the Teaching. Bhikkhu, I have done what a Teacher has to do to his disciples out of compassion. These are roots of trees and these are empty houses. Develop concentration do not be negligent and later regret. This is our advise. " Kind Regards Herman 48657 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 6:14pm Subject: Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term corvus121 Hi Herman I've been enjoying reading all your posts but ... you've left me up in the air again. By this I mean you have quoted a sutta from the AN without spelling out what it means for you. This has left me needing to second-guess your intentions, something I have always failed at in the past. First of all, I note your description of yourself: > If your definition is generally acceptable, then I am neither a > Theravadin or a bodhiologist. I am just a mass that lends itself to > suffering. I do find refuge in the Dhamma, but not through an > ever-compounding conceptualisation of the meanings in the Tipitaka. I > am not really interested in disecting suffering to the nth degree. Going now to the sutta, and in particular this passage: > Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in > prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four > lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in > wonderful things, in a series of questions and answers. He does not > spend the time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops > internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives > according to the Teaching. This confuses me - does it not initially state "the Bhikkhu learns the Teaching" but then subsequently say "he does not spend the time learning them"? Is there a contradiction here? Does he spend time learning the Teaching or not? Is there a transcription error here? Who was the translator? How are *you* reading this sutta? What is it telling you? A barrage of questions .. but all arising from sincere interest, I assure you. I just don't understand what is being said! Hope you have time to reply. Best wishes Andrew T 48658 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Prefered renderings bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarahprocterabbott who wrote: >How would you translate 'Mano' ? Mostly, simply as 'Mind', but any translation is context dependent... 'Mentality' may also do some places! I agree with you that we should keep on investigating the Meaning of the words used in particular instances of the Dhamma. In this regard should meditation is a tool for systematic reflection & clear penetration neither be underestimated nor neglected. Secondly the same words and sentences may have more than One! and Different Meanings even simultaneously!!! This one appreciates later along the path. Such multi-information packing was often deliberately used by the blessed Buddha. A similar situation is know in genetics where more that one 'gene' can be 'read' from the same linear DNA sequence of single letters using different reading frames... : - ] 48659 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjh âna - an Abhidhamma term nilovg Hi Herman and Andrew, the point of this sutta is that the monk should not neglect seclusion, developing calm. He does not spend the time: I would say: does not spend all his time. The Thai is clearer: he is not absorbed in them while day and night passing. A certain balance is needed. The Co: he should develop samatha and vipassana. Co mentions the meaning of jhaayati, meditate. The 36 subjects of Samatha and the contemplation of the lakkhana, characteristics, of for example the khandhas, the aayatanas (sensefields), seeing them as impermanent, etc. I prefer the PTS translation that elaborates what he is studying: sutta, geyya, etc. Nina. op 10-08-2005 00:44 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > He does not > spend the time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops > internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives > according to the Teaching. 48660 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: HELP ! kasinas. nilovg Hi Christine and Htoo, yes, I read this too. Parts of the body or colours like red of blood can be made like a kasina meditation. There is a connection of the colour kasinas with the body. White is connected with bones. Kasina means: all-encompassing. Thus, its meaning is very wide. And what is more: it can bring us to non-forgetfulness of paramattha dhammas. That is why arahatship is mentioned in Walshe's notes. Nina. op 09-08-2005 22:31 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > 357: Referring, as in verse 23, to the World of Form. Jhaana is > here induced by observing marks on one's own body. 48661 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:02am Subject: letter from Lisa sarahprocter... The following letter was sent to us off-list in response to a note we sent her when she unsubscribed. I'll make sure that any replies from anyone are brought to her attention. S. ========================================== Dear Sarah and Jon and all of you lovely, wonderful Dhammafriends: Thank you for your e-mail and concern about my leaving the group even though the thought is empty of reality as it is and the caring I read into this letter is as empty as a soap bubble riding the breath of this very hot summer day. Maybe if I use the caring dhammas to water the little panna seeds that shows up every now and then I will have a big fully grown Bodhi Tree to sit under when all those individual parts of reality decide to settle down and awaken to reality as it is. I am not being flippant with this goodbye because there really is no beginning or ending, no hellos or goodbyes, there is no I it's just those blasted flippant dhammas coming up again and again until there is no more fuel to feed their movement. All of you stand back while panna shows those flippant dhammas the light of sati and they can remember there is no whole or parts in regards to what we can never speak or think of. This is reality as it is--not me or mine, never yours or others, there is never an ever lasting self or no self to own or stand on cling to or run from. All of you have inspired me to continue to study I just don't have the push to dialogue about the text anymore. I feel the need to be quiet and listen for Buddha's footsteps if he decides to come my way. You can post this if you wish Sarah and Jon and I want all those units and moments of reality that represent the DSGERs to know that I love them so much and will hold them for a tiny 1/64 of a second near this empty heart which is only a fabrication of some puthujana's mind. Emptiness is empty of emptiness and I have found a lovely way to get around samsara using this special wisdom! It's a surfboard made from pana and balanced with with equanimity and just the right amount of effort, guided by sati and waxed smooth and slick with loving kindness and compassion. Effort is effortless when aversion and craving no longer unbalance the mind and the feet grip the surf board through intuition not conceptualization so standing is truly straight. Thank you for helping me build my lovely dhamma surf board even though I keep forgetting the proper words to use in my dhamma sentences. I do remember what they mean. Well sort of kind of remember....I will continue trying to see the panna come up and not to grasp at it or run from it as it passes away. I broke the special bowl I used to keep pana in and now I intuit pana will come again and again before this body passes from one form to another so there is no need to keep a bowl by my front door to help me remember where panna is. Now I just have to remember what it looks like as it passes by. When the surf dies down I will clean my lovely surf board everyone here helped me build, I will use this tool wisely putting it away in a clean tool shed free of sand and sea salt ready for another day of high wave riding. And remember when I use the letter "I" it is used in reference to these darn clingy aggregates....(hahaha) Does any one have some Cling-Free aggregate spray? Those clingy aggregates keep riding up my legs and showing off those nasty fetters I have around my ankles. The wave of feelings, thoughts, sensations and emotions are at their highest right now so I am going off to surf samsara while the tide is high over those dangerous coral reefs built from aversion and cravings. yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo With Metta, Lisa 48662 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:09am Subject: The 3 Ultimate Facts ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Three Characteristics of all Worldly Phenomena: All form is unstable, falling apart, transient & inevitably vanishing! Therefore is all form fragile, frustrating, & ultimately disappointing! Therefore is all form ownerless, not what I am, nor-mine-nor-self! All feeling is unsteady, disintegrating, temporary & just fading away! Therefore is all feeling feeble, annoying, & really painful suffering! Therefore is all feeling unkeepable, alien, not-me-nor-mine-nor-self! All perception is fickle, collapsing, transitory & quickly disappearing! Therefore is all perception frail, bothering, & never quite enough! Therefore is all perception foreign, strange, not-me-nor-mine-nor-self! All construction is insecure, subsiding, ephemeral & always leaving! Therefore is all construction brittle, irksome, & invariably inadequate! Therefore is all construction impersonal and not-me-nor-mine-nor-self! All consciousness is momentary, fleeting, passing, evanescent & lost! Therefore is all consciousness insubstantial, tedious, & quite miserable! Therefore is all consciousness egoless, remote & not-me-nor-I-nor-self! Thus seeing, thus knowing, thus assured, and clearly comprehending, but shattered, and disgusted, yet still calm, cool & collected, one gradually stops taking up & accumulating these things, since only fools pick up pain! One instead Relinquishes! This -only & exactly this release by letting go- is the liberating escape from all suffering, be it past, future or present! The Blessed Buddha said: Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, this still remains the same condition, an immutable fact and a fixed regular nature-law: That all constructions are impermanent, that all constructions are subject to suffering, that everything is without a self. Anguttara Nikaya III 134 Constructions are all impermanent: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is ill, That is the path to purity. Constructions are all suffering: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is ill, That is the path to purity. Things are all not self: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is ill, That is the path to purity. Dhammpada 277-79 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <.....> 48663 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 10:14pm Subject: Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Tep who wrote: >implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. _Not so, friend, but Rather:_ They are inseparable & mutually dependent: What ever one feels, percieves, thinks, attends to, analyzes & intends, of that one is also conscious... Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 48664 From: "Justin" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hi John, I appreciate your post. I agree with what you say in theory. However, using aid and fear as forms of coercion is immoral, don't you think? This is exactly why missionaries target people in developing countries. When educated people can research, discuss and then choose to convert to another religion, that is much different then someone being coerced to convert through aid with 'strings attached'. Also, the evangelical christian missionaries insist that their religion (and their narrow interpretation of the bible) is the only way toward peace and salvation. They believe and teach that people who don't accept jesus as their savior will go to hell, no matter how wholesome they live their life. That is intolerant and disrepectful to everyone else. They believe the Lord Buddha himself is in hell...as well as Ghandi, and eventually the King of Thailand. Is this not devisive? Some people think this topic is off-subject, but I think it is a valid issue that is okay to discuss here. What do you think? justin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Justin > > I have heard it said that the greatest threat to the Dhamma is the wrong > view of those who profess to follow it. For example, if monks or > respected lay followers teach wrong dhamma, this is what will lead to > Buddhism's decline. > > I think there is a lot in this. There have probably always been outsiders > who promote other teachings among the followers of Dhamma, but it has > survived so far becuase of the faith and understanding of its followers. > The same will apply in the future. > > The best thing we can do to help preserve the teachings is to study the > teachings and try ourselves to understand the Buddha's message. > > What do you think? > > Jon > 48665 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 474) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, To repeat, akusala sangaha or stock of unwholesome dhamma are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There are 4 gantha dhamma. They are 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha 2. byaapaada kaayagantha 3. silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha The first two gantha dhamma have been explained. 3. silabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha Sila means 'stone' and silabbata or silavata means 'ceremonial observance'. Paraamasati means 'to touch' 'to deal with' 'to hold on' 'to be attached to'. Paraamaasa means 'touching' 'seizing' 'taking hold of'. So siilabbata-paraamaasa means 'seizing ceremonial observance' or 'holding ceremonial observance' 'handling ceremonial observance'. This means that 'ceremonial observances like killing animals and offer them to divine beings or observing the practice that are those of dogs, cows, etc or observing non-sense rituals like standing on one foot for days, not eating food for days as a practice to purify mind. Still there are many observances that are non-sense when these are connected with wrong view. Clasping hands and worshiping to the sky, to the earth, to the sun, to 6 directions or 10 directions, to trees, to rivers, to mountains, to tombs, and many others. If there is wrong view in mind while observing such things like worshiping corpse, remnants or corpse, heap of earthy ground, tomb are all 'siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' or 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knot'. This may also include when one is observing non-sense ritualistic behavioural activities like maintaining of strange postures as a practice in order to purify mind or in order to be liberated. There have been many many practices since human beings are on this earth. Some went through trials and errors and finally they set up a defined practice what they thought was a good thing to do as a spiritual cleansing and then they founded up their individual schools, teaching those things that they believed were all true. From their schools they propagate all their teachings to many different beings wherever they meet in whatever situations. The chief dhamma here is 'ditthi' or 'wrong-view'. As long as 'ditthi' is there and that ditthi is associated with lobha producing ditthi-gata-sampayutta-lobha-muula-cittas or greedy consciousness accompanied by wrong view there cannot be any panna or wisdom. Sometimes this ditthi is very subtle that it may not be detectable by the immatured. Examples are sitting in a quiet place, sitting on folded crossed legs, sitting on erect body, straightening the back, sitting under a tree, or any specific postures. When these are imitated by someone without knowledge of what is right and what is wrong and without knowledge of what is ditthi or wrong view they may well believe that they are following the right practice and they feel ease. But as long as there is ditthi, panna or wisdom cannot arise. Ditthi or wrong view may come to beings in many different forms. One of these forms is 'silabbata-paraamaasa' or 'silavata-paraamaasa' kaayagantha. As it is a gantha dhamma this ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knots or 'silavata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' tie beings and they make knots or they bind beings not to be liberated. These knots are like knotted thread in a net of trap. Once beings are in the trap-net and they are bounded or tied by gantha dhamma or siilabbata-paraamaasa they cannot escape from unhappy destination. These knots or bonds are hard to break up and cut up. But when there is right view and when there arises sotapatti magga naana or 'stream- entering path-knowledge then all these hard to cut up knots of siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha are destroyed and beings in question are liberated from binding of siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48666 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Definition of 'Mind' ? nilovg Hi Tep, op 07-08-2005 21:24 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep: In your answer you also listed kusala cetana, wise attention, etc., > as the other cetasikas that arise and support "the kusala citta with sati". > So I wonder why Kundaliya Sutta only mentions the three kinds of good > conduct (i.e. sila) : > > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" > "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and > cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." --------- N: I go back to the text:there are four purities of siila, parisuddhasiila: The last three purities of siila are observed through the mind. ------- Text: It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness.> **** N: the sobhana cetasikas such as saddhaa, sati, alobha, adosa, the six pairs of lightness, wieldiness etc, kusala volition, wise attention, all of them support the kusala citta. They are indispensable for any kind of kusala. For the development of satipatthana amoha or paññaa is most important. ----- Tep: I remember that the Visuddhimagga also says that citta, mano, and vinnaa.na are the same with regard to meaning. But I like the simpler definition of mind as citta & associated cetasika, although I have seen a simpler definition: citta = mind. ------- It is the function of citta to cognize an object, it is the chief in knowing an object. The accompanying akusala cetasikas or sobhana cetasikas are the condition for it to be akusala citta or kusala citta. Nina. 48667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. nilovg Hi Tep, I try to add a few things. Some English translations are difficult. See my remarks inserted in the text. op 08-08-2005 04:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The following is the Pali contribution from our friend Han Tun, as usual. > -------------------------------------- > > 212. He combines(samodhaaneti) [other] ideas'(dhamma): > > how does he combine [other] ideas? (katham dhamme > samodhaaneti?) ---- N: The list that follows are the 37 factors pertaining to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas. These develop together with satipatthana. This part of the Treatise deals with the development of pañña, and it refers especially to lokuttara cittas. ------- Text: He combines the faculties through their meaning of dominance > (aadhipateyyatthena indriyaani samodhaaneti). ----- N: these are the indriyas that should be developed: saddhaa (confidence), viriya, sati, samaadhi, paññaa. A faculty is a leader in its own field. It is dominant in that field. --------- Text: He combines the powers through their meaning of unshakability > (akampiyatthena balaani samodhaaneti). ------ N: When the indriyas are developed they become powers, and then they are unshakable by their opposites. Sati becomes unshakable by forgetfulness. This happens in the course of insight. It can arise in any situation. Confidence becomes unshakable. Energy becomes unshakable by laziness or discouragement, lack of perseverance. ------- Text: He combines the enlightenment factors through their meaning of outlet > (niyyaanatthena bojjhange samodhaaneti). ------ N: 7 factors: mindfulness, investigation of dhamma(paññaa), energy. rapture, calm, concentration, equanimity. Outlet, niyyaana: from niyyaati: to get out. -------- Text: He combines the path through its meaning of cause (hetutthena > maggam samodhaaneti). > He combines the foundations of mindfulness through their meaning of > establishment (upatthaanatthena satipatthaanam samodhaaneti). > He combines the right endeavours through their meaning of exertion > (padahanatthena sammappadhaanam samodhaaneti). > He combines the basis for success through their meaning of > succeeding (ijjhanatthena iddhipaadam samodhaaneti). > He combines the actualities through their meaning of suchness > (tathatthena saccam samodhaaneti). ------- N: actualities: this is the translation of the four noble Truths. ---------- > 213. He combines serenity through its meaning of non-distraction > (avikkhepatthena samatham samodhaaneti). > He combines insight through its meaning of contemplation > (anupassanatthena vipassanam samodhaaneti). > He combines serenity and insight through their meaning of single > function (ekarasatthena samathavipassanam samodhaaneti). -------- N: single function: At the moment of lokuttara citta. --------------- He combines coupling through its meaning of non-excess > (nativattanatthena yuganaddham samodhaaneti). -------- N: Of calm and insight: yuganaddha: in this Treatise this pertains to lokuttara citta. ----------- Text: 214. He combines purification of virtue through its meaning of restraint > (samvaratthena silavisuddhim samodhaaneti). > He combines purification of cognizance through its meaning of non- > distraction (avikkhepatthena cittavisuddhim samodhaaneti). > He combines purification of view through its meaning of seeing > (dassanatthena ditthivisuddhim samodhaaneti). ----- N: When sammaasati arises there is at that very moment purification of siila, of samaadhi, of paññaa. Here, the Co points to the three purifications at the moments of magga-citta and phalacitta. When the object is nibbaana there is true calm. Citta is not distracted. The Co explains that siila with vipassana maggacitta does not have the viratis, but it is siila because of guarding. In jhaana and in vipassanaa there is siila as guarding, the Co states. ------ Text: He combines liberation through its meaning of deliverance > (vimuttatthena vimokkham samodhaaneti). > He combines recognition through its meaning of penetration > (pativedhatthena vijjam samodhaaneti). > He combines deliverance through its meaning of giving up > (pariccaagatthena vimuttim samodhaaneti). > He combines knowledge of exhaustion through the sense of cutting off > (samucchedatthena khayenaanam samodhaaneti). > He combines knowledge of non-arising in its meaning of tranquillization > (patippassaddhatthena anuppaadenaanam samodhaaneti). ------ N: This text refers to lokuttara cittas. Defilements are eradicated and liberation from the cycle is reached. This is the freedom of arahatship. Han: N: caaga is also used for liberality, but it means also relinguishment, namely of defilements. The giving up of defilements. Not giving in to them. -------- Text: 215. Zeal he combines through its meaning of root (chandam > muulatthena samodhaaneti). > Attention he combines through its meaning of originating > (manasikaaram samutthaanatthena samodhaaneti). > Contact he combines through its meaning of combining (phassam > samodhaanatthena samodhaaneti). > Feeling he combines through its meaning of meeting (vedanam > samosaranatthena samodhaaneti). > Concentration he combines through its meaning of its being foremost > (samaadhim pamukhatthena samodhaaneti). > > Mindfulness he combines through its meaning of dominance (satim > aadhipateyyatthena samodhaaneti). > Understanding he combines through its meaning of being highest of all > (pannam taduttaratthena samodhaaneti). ------ N: Instead of meaning, I would rather translate attha as benefit. The benefit of understanding is being the highest of all. Without understanding that is fully developed enlightenment cannot be attained. -------- > Deliverance he combines through its meaning of core (vimuttim > saaratthena samodhaaneti). > Nibbana, which merges in the deathless, he combines through its > meaning of ending (amatogadham nibbaanam pariyosaanatthena > samodhaaneti). > This person combines these ideas (dhamma) on this object (ayam > puggalo ime dhamme imasmim aarammane samodhaaneti). > Hence 'He combines [other] ideas' is said (tenavuccati "dhamme > samodhaanetii" ti). > ------------------------------ Nina. 48668 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: HELP ! HELP ! HELP ! htootintnaing Dear Christine and Nina, You both are very helpful. But there are unsolved problems, I think. 1. 1st emancipation Possesing form, one sees forms. This is the first liberation. Here I possess forms. And I see forms. Am I liberated? Am I in liberation? 2. 2nd emancipation Not perceiving material forms in oneself, one see them outside. This is the 2nd liberation. Here sometimes I do not perceive forms in my self but I see forms in others' selves. Am I liberated? Am I in liberation? I do not perceive forms in my self while I am perceiving forms in others' selves. Is this the 2nd liberation? What is liberated? 3. 3rd emancipation Thinking: it is beautiful. One becomes intent on it. This is the 3rd liberation. Here I am thinking. Yes. Now what I am seeing is beautiful. It is red coloured silk towel. It is very very beautiful. I become intent on that redness. Am I liberated? Am I in liberation? 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th are all evidently aruupa jhaana. But 8th is nirodha samapatti or cessation-attainment. Nirodha-samapatti arises for 7 days and then arahats emerge. But that sutta says 'anuloma, patiloma, anuloma and patiloma'. That is these 8 emancipations are done in forward order, then backward order, and then both foreward order and backward order. Foreward order is OK. Backward order? This still seems OK. Because after nirodha samapatti there arises arahatta phala citta and this is followed by bhavanga cittas. Then paccavakkhana cittas arise. After that backward order can be done. Foreward and backward order?? How does this happen? OK! 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th are aruupa jhaana. Why should the first 3 emancipation ruupa jhaana? There are 4 ruupa jhaanas. Here why should 3? I am looking forward to hearing from Robert K, Nina, Christine, Rob K, Tep, and many experts here. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Whoever is good at Dhamma, could you please explain the following > > passage that is written at accesstoinsight in Mahanidana Sutta DN > 15? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Htoo Naing > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Whoever is good at Dhamma, could you please explain the following > > passage that is written at accesstoinsight in Mahanidana Sutta DN > 15? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Hello Htoo, all, > > Maurice Walshe's translation and notes to the Digha Nikaya for this > passage are included below: > > Walshe's translation: > "'There are, Aananda, these eight liberations. [356] What are they? > (1) Possessing form, one sees forms. [357] That is the first > liberation. > (2) Not perceiving material forms in oneself, one sees them outside. > [358] That is the second liberation. > (3) Thinking: "It is beautiful", one becomes intent on it. [359] > That is the third. > (4) By completely transcending all perception of matter, by the > vanishing of the perception of sense-reactions and by non-attention > to the perception of variety, thinking: "Space is infinite", one > enters and abides in the Sphere of Infinite Space. That is the > Fourth. > (5) By transcending the Sphere of Infinite Space, > thinking: "Consciousness is infinite", one enters and abides in the > Sphere of Infinite Consciousness. That is the fifth. > (6) By transcending the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness, > thinking: "There is no thing", one enters and abides in the Sphere > of No-Thingness. That is the sixth. > (7) By transcending the Sphere of No-Thingness, one reaches and > abides in the Sphere of Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. That > is the seventh. > (8) By transcending the Sphere of Neither-Perception-Nor-Non- > Perception one enters and abides in the Cessation of Perception and > Feeling. [360] That is the eighth liberation.'" > > Walshe's NOTES: > 356: These are really only relative 'liberations', since one has > to pass through them successively to gain true freedom. > > 357: Referring, as in verse 23, to the World of Form. Jhaana is > here induced by observing marks on one's own body. > > 358: Here, the kasi.na (disc. etc., used as a meditation-object) > is external to oneself. > > 359: By concentrating on the perfectly pure and bright colours of > the kasi.na > > 360: Sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha or nirodha-samaapatti: a state > of a kind of suspended animation, from which it is possible to break > through to the state of Non- Returner or Arahant. For an > illuminating account of this - to the ordinary person - mysterious > state, see Nyaa.naponika, Abhikdhamma Studies (2nd ed.), 113ff > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 48669 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: HELP ! HELP ! HELP !(Nina, Rob K, Rob M, Tep) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine: I did see Walshe's NOTES: But I just replied to hear from others. Now I am dealing with that NOTES. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine's quote: Walshe's NOTES: 356: These are really only relative 'liberations', since one has to pass through them successively to gain true freedom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The original word is vimokkho. I like Walshe's remark here. That is these are relative liberations. But as I replied Christine in my previois reply there are description of anuloma, patiloma, anuloma- patiloma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine's quote- Walshe's Note continues: 357: Referring, as in verse 23, to the World of Form. Jhaana is here induced by observing marks on one's own body. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like Nina's remark. But here, I do not like Walshe's note. That is Jhaana is here induced by observing marks on one's own body. How can that happen? It is just thinking. Jhaana cannot be induced by thinking alone. As Nina said colour kasinas have base in the colour in body parts. Nila = brown = muscle (dark-red/brown) Piita = yellow = plasma (golden yellow or yellow) Lohita= red = arterial blood (bright red) Odaata= white = bone Now, say, I am closing my eyes. Then I am thinking on my blood. It is red. Such contemplation will not lead to jhaana. I will have to see 'colour' for jhaana to arise. The sutta says: 'Ruupii rupaani passati. Aya.m pathamo vimokkho'. How do you interpret this Nina, Rob M, Rob K, Tep ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine's quote on Walshe's NOTE: 358: Here, the kasi.na (disc. etc., used as a meditation-object) is external to oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This sounds right. But when 4th,5th,6th,7th are aruupa jhaana, why this 2nd emancipation is different from them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine's quote on Walshe's NOTE: 359: By concentrating on the perfectly pure and bright colours of the kasi.na ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sounds right. But when compared with 4,5,6, and 7th vimokkha, this 3rd emancipation seems strange. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine's quote on Walshe's NOTE: 360: Sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha or nirodha-samaapatti: a state of a kind of suspended animation, from which it is possible to break through to the state of Non- Returner or Arahant. For an illuminating account of this - to the ordinary person - mysterious state, see Nyaa.naponika, Abhikdhamma Studies (2nd ed.), 113ff metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Christine for your kind and very rapid response. In this reply, I included Nina, Rob K, Rob M, Tep. I say this for their attention to involve. With many thanks, Htoo Naing 48670 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:52am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 475) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) Among these 9 stocks of akusala dhamma there are 4 gantha dhamma that knot beings up not to be liberated and not to be free. They are 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha 2. byaapaada kaayagantha 3. silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha The first three gantha dhamma have been explained in the previous posts. 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha This Pali word is made up of 'ida.m + sacca + abhi + nivesa'. Ida.m means 'this' 'such' 'here'. Sacca means 'truth' 'real' 'right'. Abhi means 'exceedingly' 'higher' 'superior'. Nivesa means 'entering' 'settling down' 'stopping' 'house' 'abode' Abhinivesa means 'inclination' 'adhereance' 'settling in' Sacca-abhinivesa means 'inclination to dogmatize'. So idansaccabhinivesa means 'inclination to dogmatize this'. This means that someone has inclination to dogmatize what he believes is true without adequate grounds to explain all nature then that being has a kaayagantha or body-knot called idansaccabhinivesa kaayagantha or the body-knot of slef-inclination to dogmatize such a belief. The basis or the essence dhamma here is ditthi cetasika. This is also subtle dhamma and it is hard to realize. Because of this hard to realize dhamma beings are being caught in this net of 'idansaccabhinivesa kaayagantha' or the knot of 'self-inclination to dogmatize such belief'. As this is a ditthi this ditthi is always accompanied by lobha cetasika. So when mind is analysed then these cittas or consciousness that holds this view of 'idansacca-bhinivesa' are all lobh-muula-citta or attachment-rooted consciousness. As it is akusala dhamma it cannot be any kusala when these consciousnessness arise. This may also invlove the view that 'only my view is right and all other views are wrong' 'only Theravada is right and all other sects of Buddhism are not that right as compared to Therava' 'only Buddhism is the right one and all other religions are wrong'. This is so subtle and hard to see. Because when one encounters the genuine teachings he or she may be too delighted to release such view of only these are right and all other things are wrong. When delighted with such wrong view of 'idansaccabhinivesa' such consciousness is not kusala dhamma. When such dhamma is not kusala dhamma panna cannot arise in such mind state. Sati also cannot arise in such mind state when idansacca- bhinivesa kaayagantha arise. When there is no sati and panna the consciousness are not kusala dhamma. As there is idansacca-bhinivesa and it is ditthi cetasika such mind state or consciousness is just akusala citta. It is 'somanassa saha gatam ditthigata sampayutta asankharika citta or sasankharika citta'. So it is akusala citta or unwholesome consciousness. So however right one religion or sect or practice is if there is such view of idansacca-bhinivesa or inclination to dogmatize then there arise akusala cittas and this akusala then bind beings in question to three loka or kaama, ruupa, aruupa or sensuous sphere, fine material sphere and immaterial sphere or non-material sphere. This kaayagantha or body-knot or body-binding or body-tie is so powerful that once beings are in the net of the trap 'idansacca- bhinivesa' they are bound, tied, knotted and they cannot escape from the entangled threads of net. This may even draw down to lower destinations or unhappy destinations. But when the wise ardently practise according to The Buddha's instructions and if there arises sotapatti magga naana or stream- entering path-knowledge then all these thread forming knots are cut up and beings in question are liberated from binding of this body- knot of 'idansacca-bhinivesa kaayagantha'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48671 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:43am Subject: Cambodian Lectures nilovg Dear Friends, This was our evening reading; Nina. 48672 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: Hello all, I'm back (for now) lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > Welcome back. > The Buddha did not tell people to force themselves into living without the > idea of self. > He helped people to have more understanding of their lives and he taught > that also understanding is non-self. The consequence is: leave the > development of paññaa to conditions. Nobody can hasten its development, than > one overstrains. Howard spoke about softpedalling. Take it easy, that is > better for your peace of mind. What, then, are the conditions for development of panna? Taking it easy but studying little by little does seem to me to be one way it can arise, but I also think wisdom can be developed through purposeful meditation... not that it's easy or anything, but it can be done. Maybe even that needs certain conditions as well. I'm not sure. > Lead your normal daily life with your > parents, with your friends, talking about non-dhamma things. No I want to be a meditative one who practises the Noble Eightfold Path and does specific contemplative exercises outlined in some literature I have. I have been having a hard time with my health, that is, I am not always lucid enough to see the situation for what it is and be purposeful about abstaining from wrong speech, and so I will idle chatter, but this is not ideal and in theory could be worked with. > You spoke about transcendental meditation, but if you overreach it may be > harmful. > It is helpful to study the dhamma little by little, as Sarah explained. She > gave you tips for some books, like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. It all helps > and then nothing is forced. > Nina. Later, Nina. 48673 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: HELP ! HELP ! HELP ! nilovg Dear Htoo, I have sutta and Co by B.B., I shall take my time and give a summary. Nina. op 10-08-2005 18:32 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > You both are very helpful. But there are unsolved problems, I think. 48674 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:26am Subject: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. nilovg Dear Htoo, a summary. Co states that the material form possesses is the rupa jhana aroused through the blue kasina. something internal such as the hairs of the head. This is the meaning of rupii: having material form. ...with the eye of jhaana one sees material forms such as the blue kasina externally. N: Thus seeing: with the eye of jhana, not the ordinary seeing. 2. 2nd emancipation Not perceiving material forms in oneself, one see them outside. This is the 2nd liberation. ----- N: not arousing rupa-jhana on his own headhairs. He does the preparatory work externally. ------- 3. 3rd emancipation Thinking: it is beautiful. One becomes intent on it. This is the 3rd liberation. -------- N: jhanas attained through very pure colour kasinas. Quoted is a passage of the patisambhidaamagga: he develops lovingkindness, beings are not repulsive to him. So with the other Brahmavihaaras. Also in this sense there is beauty. --------- Htoo: 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th are all evidently aruupa jhaana. But 8th is nirodha samapatti or cessation-attainment. Nirodha-samapatti arises for 7 days and then arahats emerge. But that sutta says 'anuloma, patiloma, anuloma and patiloma'. ------------ N: This is about the vasis, the masteries of jhana: attainment in forward and backward order, without stopping in any one attainment. ------- Htoo:Why should the first 3 emancipation ruupa jhaana? There are 4 ruupa jhaanas. Here why should 3? ----------- N: I think all rupajhanas are included, but the way they are presented here is somewhat different from the usual way. They are presented by way of vimokkhas, liberations. Thus, the four rupajhanas are included in three liberations. The Cessation, nirodha is the eighth liberation. Co: it is completely purified and liberated from the four nama-khandhas. Subco: It can by attained only by ariyans and because it qualifies as the attainment of 'nibbaana here and now', since it terminates in the noble fruit.> It is explained that he is liberated in both ways, ubhatobhaagavimutta: through the immaterial attainments he is liberated from the material body and through the path he is liberated from the mental body. Subco: liberated from the defilements. The subco also explains that if one gains even one arupajhana one can apply the name eight emancipations even to a single part of the set. Nina. 48675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello all, I'm back (for now) nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 10-08-2005 19:51 schreef Andrew Levin op insomniac@...: quotes: The consequence is: leave the >> development of paññaa to conditions. Nobody can hasten its > development, than >> one overstrains. Howard spoke about softpedalling. Take it easy, > that is >> better for your peace of mind. ------- A.: What, then, are the conditions for development of panna? Taking it > easy but studying little by little does seem to me to be one way it > can arise, but I also think wisdom can be developed through > purposeful meditation... not that it's easy or anything, but it can > be done. Maybe even that needs certain conditions as well. I'm not > sure. ------ N: When you say purposeful meditation, you mean with intention? But every kusala citta has kusala intention. When you say meditation: what kind. What does paññaa know is a question one should ask oneself. Is it not paññaa that develops and develops and can lead to the goal of the teachings? -------- AL quotes: Lead your normal daily life with your >> parents, with your friends, talking about non-dhamma things. AL: No I want to be a meditative one who practises the Noble Eightfold > Path and does specific contemplative exercises outlined in some > literature I have. ------ N: By conditions we are in this or that situation, with other people or friends. By developing understanding in our normal, daily life we come to know ourselves, our accumulated inclinations, also our vices. We learn that they are conditioned dhammas, not mine. Is this not the purpose of the teachings? Doing specific contemplative exercises can be motivated by clinging. Moreover, they can be dangerous, harmful for one's mental health. Straining oneself by hard practices is off the Middle Way the Buddha taught. ------- AL: I have been having a hard time with my health, > that is, I am not always lucid enough to see the situation for what > it is and be purposeful about abstaining from wrong speech, and so I > will idle chatter, but this is not ideal and in theory could be > worked with. ------ N: so long as we are not arahats and we are not monks, there will be idle chatter. We can develop metta also when we are talking, and you can see that it makes a lot of difference. It can be very natural, not forced. At other times there are conditions for idle chatter, but now we can learn the difference between different cittas, kusala cittas and akusala cittas. That is the way to know ourselves. Nina. 48676 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah and All, Sarah: James & Ken H, glad to read your continued discussion on metta and 'clinging to metta'. In the context of our discussion with Herman, it was clinging to having more metta and other wholesome states in the future as he said...to being a better person and so on. This is not the development of metta as he explained. Yes, clinging can be to anything now... James: What exactly is wrong with wanting to have more metta and wanting to be a better person? Aren't those wholesome desires? As for myself, I usually do metta meditation while riding the exercise bike. I know, kinda weird, but I guess I find that the endorphins produced by the exercise bike put me in the proper mood for radiating metta. I follow the technique as laid out in the Vism. except I visualize the metta as a pink energy. The color pink for the energy of metta just came to me when I began this type of meditation, but then I read elsewhere that pink is associated with loving-kindness. I first began this pink-metta meditation, in this form, to help a friend who was being harassed by Jinns (earth devas) in Cairo. So, are you saying that I am doing the wrong thing? Am I clinging to metta? Here's another instance where I didn't intend to generate metta: One day I was in a very depressed and upset mood. I had had a significant disagreement with a teacher associate who had offered to allow me to store stuff in her apartment (soon to be my apartment) over the summer, but then she reneged the offer. It's a long story, but I had to store my stuff somewhere else at the last minute. Anyway, I was very upset with her; and I was having a hard time at my school because of its disorganization; it was hot and uncomfortable; and I was riding in a disgusting, old taxi through the dirty streets of Cairo and the pollution was choking me. Really, I felt just terrible, in everyway imaginable! As I stepped out of the taxi, and reached for my wallet, suddenly the pressure of all these terrible things snapped, or something, and all of my negative feelings went away. For a fleeting moment, I felt extreme metta for that teacher who had betrayed me, for the school and its students, for the taxi driver, and for everyone else who was struggling in the heat of Cairo. I felt this metta spontaneously, I assume, because my ego couldn't handle the pressure anymore and it self destructed- temporarily. The feeling of metta didn't last and it was quickly replaced with negative feelings again. But, I wasn't as angry or upset as before. I had seen the light so to speak. Afterwards, I stopped thinking about the teacher who had betrayed me, stopped feeling like a victim, and felt some compassion for her. Is this clinging to metta? Or is this instance of metta better because it was spontaneous? As for myself, I don't see a big difference and I think that metta needs to be generated through metta meditation. We can't sit around and wait for metta to arise spontanously, it doesn't happen that often. Just some thoughts. Metta, James 48677 From: cosmique Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' cosmique1000 Dear Dhamma friends, Your posts on the missionaries are very important because I think dhamma-practitioners should be more seriously concerned about the future of Sasana and be able to protect the Dhamma in possible disputes with overseas evangelists. Otherwise, in several generations Dhamma will be no more as well as dhamma-study groups like this. In my opinion, many converts into Christ in Asia and other poor countries associate Christianity with the Western civilization, its advanced economy, technology, Bill Gates, MTV, etc., whereas traditional religions are viewed as obsolete, out-of-dated superstitions. Perhaps, at the time of the emperor Ashoka Buddhism was viewed as a modern and advanced religion by countries that embraced it. One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically and technologically. The conclusion is that Christianity leads to prosperity, Buddhism to poverty. Unfortunately, this argument works well the average Joe in the 3d world countries. I came up with this question to some Western bhikkhus hoping to get a wise counter-argument from them. They said that one couldn’t buy happiness with money. It is true but it is not very convincing for potential converts. Can anyone here suggest some clear-cut and deep arguments refuting the superficial and pseudo-truthful statement that Buddhism is a way to poverty, but Christianity transforms a poor country into a rich one? May all of you be prosperous! Cosmique Message: 7 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:45:46 -0000 From: "Justin" Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' Hello Everyone, <...> I am in America this month. I just saw a program on TV tonight where evangelical preachers of huge protestant congregations were boasting about all of the missionaries they are sending around the world to bring 'christ' to misled followers of other religions. They say that the (non-x'tians) need a savior and that the only way to heaven is through 'jezuz christ'. Pure nonsense. <......> 48678 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:57pm Subject: The Three P's (was--- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term) egberdina Hi Andrew, Nina, Phil and all, Thanks for your post and all the questions. I find them very useful. See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Herman > > I've been enjoying reading all your posts but ... you've left me up > in the air again. By this I mean you have quoted a sutta from the AN > without spelling out what it means for you. This has left me needing > to second-guess your intentions, something I have always failed at in > the past. First of all, I note your description of yourself: > > > If your definition is generally acceptable, then I am neither a > > Theravadin or a bodhiologist. I am just a mass that lends itself to > > suffering. I do find refuge in the Dhamma, but not through an > > ever-compounding conceptualisation of the meanings in the Tipitaka. > I > > am not really interested in disecting suffering to the nth degree. > > Going now to the sutta, and in particular this passage: > > > Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in > > prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in > four > > lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in > > wonderful things, in a series of questions and answers. He does not > > spend the time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops > > internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives > > according to the Teaching. > > This confuses me - does it not initially state "the Bhikkhu learns > the Teaching" but then subsequently say "he does not spend the time > learning them"? Is there a contradiction here? Does he spend time > learning the Teaching or not? Is there a transcription error here? > Who was the translator? How are *you* reading this sutta? What is > it telling you? > > A barrage of questions .. but all arising from sincere interest, I > assure you. I just don't understand what is being said! > > Hope you have time to reply. == I know I carry on about the three P's. You know the pariyatti, patipatti, pathivedha formulation. I haven't quite developed the all-hearing ear yet, but I can almost hear the groans around the dsg world when I flash off another post discounting the value of theory. :-) I won't answer all of your questions, but I'll answer what I think is your main question. How am *I* reading this sutta? I'll do a bit of textual cross-referencing as well, just to show that I *do* respect sound academic practice, but without taking the enormous leap that they form an integral part of Buddhist practice. MN24, the relay-chariots sutta, is basically the template for the VisuddhiMagga. It sets out 7 steps on the Buddhist path, which is walked for one purpose only, unbinding, extinction, cessation. I'll also refer to AN 3.3.6. I'll quote the template for it. "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What five? Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." The above template is repeated with the following substitutions. 2] neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. 3] neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered yet he recites in detail, the Teaching 4] neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. 5] bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. Back to the question at hand. In a Buddhist path context, the teachings and the study of the teachings have only one purpose. To arouse delight. (With a view that delight arouses joy, and joy arouses pleasantness, leading to concentration. The purpose of the teachings is to lead to concentration!!! , and that is only the second of the relay-chariots. Many of the suttas finish on a succesful note. The audience delighted!! A sutta well spoken and well heard arouses delight, not for the sake of delight, but for the sake of concentration, which is essential further down the road, for the clear seeing of the way things really are. It doesn't matter what the activity is that one undertakes, whether studying a commentary, the phonebook, gardening, walking to work, anything at all. If there is delight, then there is an opportunity to understand the arising of that delight. If that is understood, then delight can be divorced from it's illusory connection to that specific activity, and concentration can be developed in all activity!!! How do I read the initial sutta to which you replied? The study of the Teachings is not to arrive at a consistent theory of Buddhism, not to arrive at a theoretical understanding of reality according to the Buddha. Listening to the Dhamma is only for delight, and delight is only for joy , and joy is only for pleasantness, and pleasantness is only for concentration, and concentration is, ultimately, only for Nibbana. Kind Regards Herman 48679 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' egberdina Hi Cosmique and Justin, Thank you for raising these issues. I am not passionate about these matters, but I am discussing as devils advocate. I would like to ask this: What of value would be lost if a Pali chanting, rites and ritual performing priesthood was supplanted by a hymn-singing, communion bread and wine and crucifix worshipping priesthood? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > Your posts on the missionaries are very important because I think dhamma-practitioners should be more seriously concerned about the future of Sasana and be able to protect the Dhamma in possible disputes with overseas evangelists. Otherwise, in several generations Dhamma will be no more as well as dhamma-study groups like this. In my opinion, many converts into Christ in Asia and other poor countries associate Christianity with the Western civilization, its advanced economy, technology, Bill Gates, MTV, etc., whereas traditional religions are viewed as obsolete, out-of-dated superstitions. Perhaps, at the time of the emperor Ashoka Buddhism was viewed as a modern and advanced religion by countries that embraced it. > One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically and technologically. The conclusion is that Christianity leads to prosperity, Buddhism to poverty. Unfortunately, this argument works well the average Joe in the 3d world countries. I came up with this question to some Western bhikkhus hoping to get a wise counter-argument from them. They said that one couldn't buy happiness with money. It is true but it is not very convincing for potential converts. > Can anyone here suggest some clear-cut and deep arguments refuting the superficial and pseudo-truthful statement that Buddhism is a way to poverty, but Christianity transforms a poor country into a rich one? > May all of you be prosperous! > Cosmique > > > > > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:45:46 -0000 > From: "Justin" > Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' > > Hello Everyone, > > <...> > I am in America this month. I just saw a program on TV tonight where > evangelical preachers of huge protestant congregations were boasting > about all of the missionaries they are sending around the world to > bring 'christ' to misled followers of other religions. They say that > the (non-x'tians) need a savior and that the only way to heaven is > through 'jezuz christ'. Pure nonsense. > > <......> 48680 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 0:06pm Subject: A Question About Dependent Origination upasaka_howard Hi, all - Somebody I know, not on DSG, told me that he understood all the factors of the 12-link scheme as simultaneous. I told him that I thought they were sequential for the most part except possibly for a a co-occurrence of vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana. I told him I would inquire on DSG what was thought by its members, and most particularly what is the Abhidhammic position on this. So, I am asking! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48681 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Vism.XIV,181 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 181. The [formations] associated with resultant consciousness with root-cause (42)-(49) are those with root-cause. Of these, firstly, those associated with the sense-sphere resultant [consciousness] with root-cause are similar to the formations associated with the eight sense-sphere [consciousnesses] (1)-(8). But of the inconstant ones, compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii) are not among the resultant because they have living beings as their object. For the resultant ones of the sense-sphere have only limited objects. And not only compassion and gladness but also the three abstinences (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) are not among the resultant; for it is said that 'the five training precepts are profitable only' (Vbh.291). 48682 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: > > One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically and technologically. The conclusion is that Christianity leads to prosperity, Buddhism to poverty. Unfortunately, this argument works well the average Joe in the 3d world countries. I came up with this question to some Western bhikkhus hoping to get a wise counter-argument from them. They said that one couldn't buy happiness with money. It is true but it is not very convincing for potential converts. > Can anyone here suggest some clear-cut and deep arguments refuting the superficial and pseudo-truthful statement that Buddhism is a way to poverty, but Christianity transforms a poor country into a rich one? >____ Dear Cosmique, Well a refutation of that is the Phillipines. It is the only predominantly Christian country in Asia yet is still an economic basketcase. This despite massive assistance from USA (since WWii). Robertk 48683 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' rjkjp1 And of course where I live (Japan) - predominantly Buddhist - the ecomomy is the worlds second largest. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique > wrote: > > > One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is > an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was > predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when > it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically > and technologically. The conclusion is that Christianity leads to > prosperity, Buddhism to poverty. Unfortunately, this argument works > well the average Joe in the 3d world countries. I came up with this > question to some Western bhikkhus hoping to get a wise counter- argument > from them. They said that one couldn't buy happiness with money. It is > true but it is not very convincing for potential converts. > > Can anyone here suggest some clear-cut and deep arguments refuting > the superficial and pseudo-truthful statement that Buddhism is a way to > poverty, but Christianity transforms a poor country into a rich one? > >____ > Dear Cosmique, > Well a refutation of that is the Phillipines. It is the only > predominantly Christian country in Asia yet is still an economic > basketcase. This despite massive assistance from USA (since WWii). > > > Robertk 48684 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' rjkjp1 And of course where I live (Japan) - predominantly Buddhist - the ecomomy is the worlds second largest. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique > wrote: > > > One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is > an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was > predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when > it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically > and technologically. The conclusion is that Christianity leads to > prosperity, Buddhism to poverty. Unfortunately, this argument works > well the average Joe in the 3d world countries. I came up with this > question to some Western bhikkhus hoping to get a wise counter- argument > from them. They said that one couldn't buy happiness with money. It is > true but it is not very convincing for potential converts. > > Can anyone here suggest some clear-cut and deep arguments refuting > the superficial and pseudo-truthful statement that Buddhism is a way to > poverty, but Christianity transforms a poor country into a rich one? > >____ > Dear Cosmique, > Well a refutation of that is the Phillipines. It is the only > predominantly Christian country in Asia yet is still an economic > basketcase. This despite massive assistance from USA (since WWii). > > > Robertk 48685 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Dependent Origination lbidd2 Howard: "Hi, all - Somebody I know, not on DSG, told me that he understood all the factors of the 12-link scheme as simultaneous. I told him that I thought they were sequential for the most part except possibly for a a co-occurrence of vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana. I told him I would inquire on DSG what was thought by its members, and most particularly what is the Abhidhammic position on this. So, I am asking! ;-)" Hi Howard, Sometimes pa.ticca samuppaada is translated as 'dependent co-arising', the 'co' being a translation of 'sam'. What this means is that a dhamma is not conditioned by a single condition alone nor does any dhamma arise alone. It doesn't mean that birth and death are conascent. Vism.XVII,16: ...it arises as a togetherness (saha), thus it is a co-arising (samuppaada); but it does so having depended (pa.ticca--ger.) in combination with conditions, not regardless of them. Consequently: it, having depended (pa.ticca), is a co-arising (samuppaada), thus in this way also it is dependent origination (pa.ticca samuppaada). And the total of causes is a condition for that [total of states produced from the conditionality], so, because it is a condition for that, this [total of causes] is called, 'dependent origination', using for it the term ordinarily used for its fruit just as in the word molasses, which is a condition for phlegm, is spoken of thus, 'Molasses is phlegm', or just as in the Dispensation the arising of Buddhas, which is a condition for bliss, is spoken of thus, 'The arising of Buddhas is bliss'. L: In other words, the language of dependent co-arising is a kind of shorthand for a complex process. However, in some way or another this idea has to get along with the idea of one consciousness at a time because this is the way we perceive the world. In this realist view reality is bigger than perception. Larry 48686 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina {and all who are interested in lokuttara panna} - I truly appreciate your effort in trying to explain another difficult part of the Breathing Treatise. Yes, the whole idea is to show how the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas are "combined" by means of the Anapanasati bhavana as the vehicle. The followings are taken from your message (#48667): A faculty is a leader in its own field. It is dominant in that field. When the indriyas are developed they become powers, and then they are unshakable by their opposites. Text: He combines the enlightenment factors through their meaning of outlet. Nina: Outlet, niyyaana: from niyyaati: to get out. Text: He combines serenity and insight through their meaning of single function. Nina: single function: At the moment of lokuttara citta. Text: He combines coupling through its meaning of non-excess. Nina: Of calm and insight: yuganaddha: in this Treatise this pertains to lokuttara citta. Text: He combines deliverance through its meaning of giving up ... ... He combines knowledge of non-arising in its meaning of tranquillization Nina: This text refers to lokuttara cittas. Defilements are eradicated and liberation from the cycle is reached. ... The giving up of defilements. Tep: The most important word here is "combine". What is actually the meaning of this word and how does it condition lokuttara citta? Is there a straightforward explanation of this complex process("combining" the various kinds of dhammas) that the text does not explain? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I try to add a few things. Some English translations are difficult. See my > remarks inserted in the text. (snipped) > > > Deliverance he combines through its meaning of core (vimuttim > > saaratthena samodhaaneti). > > Nibbana, which merges in the deathless, he combines through its > > meaning of ending (amatogadham nibbaanam pariyosaanatthena > > samodhaaneti). > > This person combines these ideas (dhamma) on this object (ayam > > puggalo ime dhamme imasmim aarammane samodhaaneti). > > Hence 'He combines [other] ideas' is said (tenavuccati "dhamme > > samodhaanetii" ti). > > ------------------------------ > Nina. 48687 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Dependent Origination upasaka_howard Thank you, Larry! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/10/05 8:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Howard: "Hi, all - Somebody I know, not on DSG, told me that he understood all the factors of the 12-link scheme as simultaneous. I told him that I thought they were sequential for the most part except possibly for a a co-occurrence of vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana. I told him I would inquire on DSG what was thought by its members, and most particularly what is the Abhidhammic position on this. So, I am asking! ;-)" Hi Howard, Sometimes pa.ticca samuppaada is translated as 'dependent co-arising', the 'co' being a translation of 'sam'. What this means is that a dhamma is not conditioned by a single condition alone nor does any dhamma arise alone. It doesn't mean that birth and death are conascent. Vism.XVII,16: ...it arises as a togetherness (saha), thus it is a co-arising (samuppaada); but it does so having depended (pa.ticca--ger.) in combination with conditions, not regardless of them. Consequently: it, having depended (pa.ticca), is a co-arising (samuppaada), thus in this way also it is dependent origination (pa.ticca samuppaada). And the total of causes is a condition for that [total of states produced from the conditionality], so, because it is a condition for that, this [total of causes] is called, 'dependent origination', using for it the term ordinarily used for its fruit just as in the word molasses, which is a condition for phlegm, is spoken of thus, 'Molasses is phlegm', or just as in the Dispensation the arising of Buddhas, which is a condition for bliss, is spoken of thus, 'The arising of Buddhas is bliss'. L: In other words, the language of dependent co-arising is a kind of shorthand for a complex process. However, in some way or another this idea has to get along with the idea of one consciousness at a time because this is the way we perceive the world. In this realist view reality is bigger than perception. Larry /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48688 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: HELP ! HELP ! HELP ! matheesha333 Hi Htoo, It's 4.45 in the morning on a very late night shift. Maurice's translation suddenly seems to make a lot of sense. The link seems to be deepening stages of samadhi. (1) Possessing form, one sees forms. [357] That is the first > liberation. M: Interesting that the Buddha sees this as a liberation. This sounds like vipassana, bare attention. Maybe liberation from lobha, dosa, moha and just seeing rupa. > (2) Not perceiving material forms in oneself, one sees them outside. M: This sounds like state on the way into deep samadhi and jhana where one is not focused on one's own body, but still picking up some rupa from outside. A Liberation from the material aspects of 'self' perhaps. > (3) Thinking: "It is beautiful", one becomes intent on it. [359] > That is the third. M: This reminds me of appeasement of mind, where joy arises, hinderences fade away, in preperation for jhana. (4) By completely transcending all perception of matter, by the > vanishing of the perception of sense-reactions and by non-attention > to the perception of variety, thinking: "Space is infinite", one > enters and abides in the Sphere of Infinite Space. That is the > Fourth. M: This shows the method of achieving arupa jhana. Also perhaps pointing to the idea present in some meditation circles that arupa jhana can be attained without having to successively go past the rupa jhana. > (5) By transcending "Consciousness is infinite", > Sphere of Infinite Consciousness. ....the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness, > thinking: "There is no thing", ....Sphere > of No-Thingness. ....That is the sixth. . Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. That > is the seventh. M: ..and the rest of the arupa jhanas, each more subtle than the previous. liberation from more gross arupa phenomena. > (8) By transcending the Sphere of Neither-Perception-Nor-Non- > Perception one enters and abides in the Cessation of Perception and > Feeling. [360] That is the eighth liberation.'" M: ..finally liberated from the disturbances (dukkha really) of vedana and sanna. Interestingly the anagami is free from the bonds to (sensual) stimuli. This might be making his mind more capable of going beyond vedana and sanna. M: The development of samadhi only requires an object which can be concentrated on. Kasina, the feeling of metta, the breath, all can give rise to jhana. You can pick any arbitrary point in the body and use it as an object of focus to reach jhana. love and peace, Matheesha 48689 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:38pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' onco111 Dear Cosmique, et al. Ultimately, both Christianity and Buddhism renounce materialist views of the world. But, more superficially (superficial from a spiritual perspective anyway) 1. Hard work -- to the glory of God, of course :) -- has been emphasized as an important Protestant virtue for several centuries, and that has no doubt played a key role in the astounding economic success of the West in the past few centuries. 2. On the other hand, a Buddhist emphasis on detachment as a virtue does not lend itself well astounding economic success. 3. Which virtue will catch on in popular culture? Regardless of whether the culture is influenced more by Buddhism or Christianity, if detachment catches on, expect economic stagnation. If hard work catches on, expect economic success (as in Japan and US). 4. Hard work is not an intrinsically Christian idea nor is it intrinsically un-Buddhist, and it would be a silly selling point for any religion. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > Your posts on the missionaries are very important because I think dhamma-practitioners should be more seriously concerned about the future of Sasana and be able to protect the Dhamma in possible disputes with overseas evangelists. Otherwise, in several generations Dhamma will be no more as well as dhamma-study groups like this. In my opinion, many converts into Christ in Asia and other poor countries associate Christianity with the Western civilization, its advanced economy, technology, Bill Gates, MTV, etc., whereas traditional religions are viewed as obsolete, out-of-dated superstitions. Perhaps, at the time of the emperor Ashoka Buddhism was viewed as a modern and advanced religion by countries that embraced it. > One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically and technologically. The conclusion is that Christianity leads to prosperity, Buddhism to poverty. Unfortunately, this argument works well the average Joe in the 3d world countries. I came up with this question to some Western bhikkhus hoping to get a wise counter-argument from them. They said that one couldn't buy happiness with money. It is true but it is not very convincing for potential converts. > Can anyone here suggest some clear-cut and deep arguments refuting the superficial and pseudo-truthful statement that Buddhism is a way to poverty, but Christianity transforms a poor country into a rich one? > May all of you be prosperous! > Cosmique > > > > > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:45:46 -0000 > From: "Justin" > Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' > > Hello Everyone, > > <...> > I am in America this month. I just saw a program on TV tonight where > evangelical preachers of huge protestant congregations were boasting > about all of the missionaries they are sending around the world to > bring 'christ' to misled followers of other religions. They say that > the (non-x'tians) need a savior and that the only way to heaven is > through 'jezuz christ'. Pure nonsense. > > <......> 48690 From: "Justin" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:16pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hello Herman, Converting to christianity would have far more consequences than just changing the rituals of the priesthood. If all Buddhism is to you is chanting in Pali, then it wouldn't make much of a difference. Of course that is just a one of the many duties of a monk. On the negative side, evangelicals tend to be intolerant, close-minded, and even hostile toward any other faith. Missionaries are the most extreme. They travel half way around the world to tell people that their religion is wrong. Is this not insulting? What they have to offer in the place of Buddhism is faith without thinking. There is no room for thinking for yourself for an evangelical christian. This goes against nearly everything the Buddha taught. Those are the consequesnces of converting to evangelical christianity. Best regards, Justin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Cosmique and Justin, > > Thank you for raising these issues. I am not passionate about these > matters, but I am discussing as devils advocate. > > I would like to ask this: What of value would be lost if a Pali > chanting, rites and ritual performing priesthood was supplanted by > a hymn-singing, communion bread and wine and crucifix worshipping > priesthood? <....> 48691 From: "Justin" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hello Cosmique, Well, the American military helped destroy Korea in the Korean War. After it was over, they sent the missionaries in to mop up the mess. The successful ecoonomy has nothing to do with the conversion to chrisitanity. Economic aid, abundant natural resources, and peace leads to a healthy economy. Excepting jesus as the savior has nothing to do with economic growth, although missionaries have been known to use economic aid as bribery to gain more converts. All of Central and South Amercia, was forced into chrisitianity and it didn't get them anywhere. Japan is a great example of a thriving semi-Buddhist society. I think Buddhism is fused with Shintoism, correct? Best regards, Justin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > Your posts on the missionaries are very important because I think dhamma- practitioners should be more seriously concerned about the future of Sasana and be able to protect the Dhamma in possible disputes with overseas evangelists. <.....> 48692 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:42pm Subject: Seeking Delight ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Seeking, searching, & urging instantly creates Craving: At Savatthi the Buddha said: Friends, one who seeks delight in form seeks delight in suffering. I tell you, anyone seeking delight in such suffering, is not freed from suffering. Anyone who seeks delight in feeling, in perception, in mental constructions, and in consciousness seeks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is therefore not liberated from suffering...!!! Anyone who does not seek any delight neither in form, nor in feeling, nor in perception, nor in mental constructions, nor in consciousness, does not seek delight in any suffering! One who does not seek delight in any suffering, I declare, is therefore released from all suffering!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22(29) [III 31] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <.....> 48693 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: > > One of the most favorite arguments used by x-tian missionaries is an economic miracle of South Korea. According to them, when it was predominantly Buddhist it was poor and behind the times. However, when it became predominantly x-tian it made a big step forward economically and technologically. > > >_____ Dear Cosmique, One other point you could make is that according to a recent census about 28% of South Koreans are Christian- not really predominant. Robert 48694 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:12am Subject: e-card from Noosa sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We arrived here (idyllic home turf of KenH and AndrewT) yesterday evening and were delighted to find Jon's computer, fully repaired, at the reception desk. All sorts of special concessions had been made to get it to us before leaving Australia.....kusala vipaka? Conventionally we'd say so, but all we can really say is that there was pleasant feeling and attachment to the particular stories about the happy outcome and cetainly appreciation of the trouble various people had gone to in order to help us. We met up with KenH (to be called Howard in real life, I was reminded) and AndrewT this morning on a shady bench near the sunny,sandy beach with a large coffee flask on the table.....the glimmering blue sea was in front of us, but we soon forgot it as we started to discuss various topics, continued on the very scenic coastal bush walk and to be continued further (and in more detail I'm sure) with Chris, Steve and Reg at the upcoming Cooran weekend gathering. KenH and AndrewT are both very modest and considerate....we learn a lot from their sincere reflections and gentle, probing questions...and very good humour. A few topics discussed which come to mind (none concluded)in no special order - I'll just list them and hope that Andrew, Ken and even Jon can fill in more details and add more: - more on 'shoulds' in suttas, esp. a couple of AN suttas - lots on killing: to what extent size counts, how much trouble one goes to to avoid harming (dosa? wrong view?), precepts, kamma and kamma patha, to what extent one knows one's intentions, pesticides, present moment - no cupboards of moths - fear of losing self, parinibbana - concern about others' opinions vs confidence in kusala, such as when one writes or speaks on dhamma - awareness vs understanding - knowing, experiencing, developing, attending, direct awareness, how rare or common?, kinds, levels - dhamma this moment vs speculating about past or future cittas - natural aversion about say 'longboards' as opposed to really thinking the longboarders, missionaries or anyone else is a real problem:) - translations, valuable commentary notes, influence of understanding - engaged Buddhism, social issues, involving dosa. In fact, for a group of 'robots' - lots of social issues:)). -the Great Disciples, aeons of development of understanding, hearing the teachings again and again. Also touched on - prior attainments qu. -wanting to write good posts and the mana involved at times, concern about mistakes....encouragement to each other to point out errors - wrong view of self eradicated by sotapanna and 'sense of self' remaining - asking questions and concern about whether they've been asked before:) - more on imponderable kamma issues - 'don't cling' vs getting a sensible answer to qus about future lives - more mana and comparisons - more on a sotapanna having no wrong view - no intention to kill, no envy..... - concerns about the decline of the sasana....what are the cittas? - and back to present dhammas and discussion of these being of most value as opposed to the various stories we all love to engage in at every opportunity..... ****** As I say, I hope others will pick the odd topic to elaborate on. Andrew referred to a few suttas, esp in AN -- I hope he can post any references. I mentioned a comment K.Sujin had made which we listened to as we drove in to Noosa. She was saying how as understanding (of anatta in particular) grows, there is less and less concern about 'how will I be in future', 'how can I have more metta/sati/wisdom', 'what will happen to me in future lives'etc.....dhammas can be more and more appreciated as dhammas ...no Sarah's kusala or akusala or Ken H's or Andrew's or Jon's. I also mentioned that I liked a couple of comments Herman had made recently which have stuck with me: a) the understanding has to be 'one's own' rather than the book's or another's b) what we hear and read has to really be well digested, otherwise it's useless. (excuse the very rough paraphrasing). Tomorrow, Jon and I are having a quiet day and looking f/w to really catching up with all the posts....we've got a little behind with our reading. And as we used to write on those picture postcards, wish you were all here too! Chris and Steve, look forward to your contributions to the discussions at the weekend. Azita, very sorry to hear you can't make it. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil, why not join us in Bangkok next week??? =================================================== 48695 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:54am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) jwromeijn Hallo James, Ken, Sarah (and all) One of the principles I try to keep is 'thread-discipline', so I had to say: this message has to do with the subject 'Metta-examples' and with the subject 'Metta (was RE: Botanical …)' (The other principles that - I hope - once will be that of DSG: 2. Not (much) talk about personal affairs 3. More clear division in the discussion-topics: a. Within the frame of reference of Sujin cs versus: b. About that frame of reference.) In 48582, Ken: "Metta can arise, perform its functions and fall away, and in the very next process of mind-door cittas, that metta can be the object of clinging. This is a good point of departure: At descriptive and analytic Abhidhamma-level, about ultimate realities, this is correct; and in fact nothing had to be added to this statement. But on the soteriological way of thinking, about the question: How can I get liberated, what volitional acts are the best to do for that ultimare goal, your statement doesn't help so much. On this level can try to get what Nina has called 'accumulations' of metta. Doing metta-meditation (to avoid misunderstanding I define 'meditation' as the activity like the Satipatthana Sutta stated: "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." Or in daily life: being nice to people in general of doing some metta- exercises when I experience hatred to some specific beings. And the 'contemplation' (not exactly the same as 'meditation') of Nyanaponika helps me with this; of course it's not in ultimate language, because at the ultimate level processes don't exist because processes occur in the time-dimension and 'time' is not one of the ultimate dhamma's - not a rupa and not a nama). Another useful book is that of Sharon Salzberg To those who (according Sujin as I understand) don't meditate in the way I defined the term: the difference between the practice of trying to accumulate metta in meditation and trying to get it in daily life is only gradual. In 48676. James "… As for myself, I don't see a big difference and I think that metta needs to be generated through metta meditation. We can't sit around and wait for metta to arise spontanously, it doesn't happen that often. Just some thoughts. " I totally agree with you about metta, James. It's only a pitty that to you Vism is 'an ancient text' at (nearly?) the same level as the Tipitaka as you said in #48580. I think Vism. is a commentary and all commentaries, old and new, are interpretation of the Teaching of the Buddha. So rests the problem can metta be the object of clinging? To me that's not the case: one can get clinged to all things around metta (the feeling happy at the moment metta arises, the concept 'metta', the person to whom metta was 'sended' etc) But metta itself is - as Nyanaponika stated - without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate sense there is no possesion and no possessor. With metta Joop 48696 From: nina Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:36am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 181 nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 181. ***** In the following section the Visuddhimagga deals with the cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha that are associated with sahetuka kusala vipaakacittas. Sahetuka vipaakacittas are accompanied by the cetasikas that are roots, namely, non-attachment, non-aversion and paññaa, but that this does not mean that these roots are active, that they produce effects. These roots are results, they accompany vipaakacitta produced by kusala kamma with sobhana roots. Sahetuka vipaakacittas are accompanied by sobhana cetasikas such as sati, confidence, shame, fear of blame, calm, lightness, wieldiness, of akusala, but they are results of kusala kamma. *** Text Vis. 181: The [formations] associated with resultant consciousness with root-cause (42)-(49) are those with root-cause. Of these, firstly, those associated with the sense-sphere resultant [consciousness] with root-cause are similar to the formations associated with the eight sense-sphere [consciousnesses] (1)-(8). ----- N: As we have seen, of the eight types of kusala citta of the sense-sphere four types are accompanied by wisdom, four are without wisdom, four types are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four types are accompanied by indifferent feeling, four types are unprompted and four types are prompted. The sahetuka vipaakacittas that are the results of kusala kamma are classified in the same way, but they do not perform wholesome deeds like giving, etc. Kusala kamma may produce the mahaa-vipaakacitta that is rebirth-consciousness, accompanied by paññaa. If paññaa is developed during that life one may be able to attain jhaana or enlightenment. If one is born without paññaa one cannot attain jhaana nor enlightenment during that life. --------- Text Vis.: But of the inconstant ones, compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii) are not among the resultant because they have living beings as their object. For the resultant ones of the sense-sphere have only limited objects. ------- N: Compassion (karu.na) and gladness (sympathetic joy, muditaa) are among the inconstant cetasikas because they do not always arise. They accompany the mahaa-kusala citta when there is an opportunity for their arising. The Tiika adds that living beings are objects that are concepts. Living being is a concept that is known through the mind-door, it is not experienced by vipaakacittas. Non-arahats can think of living beings with kusala cittas or akusala cittas. The Vis. states that vipaakacittas of the sense-sphere have only limited objects. Limited objects, parittaaramma.na, are the sense objects, such as visible object, etc. that can be experienced through the sense-doors. Sense objects are limited (paritta, meaning inferior) or low (hiina); they are different from the jhaanacittas that do not experience sense objects but exalted objects and lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana. --------- Text Vis.: And not only compassion and gladness but also the three abstinences (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) are not among the resultant; for it is said that 'the five training precepts are profitable only' (Vbh.291). ------ N: The virati cetasikas, abstinence from wrong conduct through body, speech or mind, do not arise with vipaakacittas, since they are the actual abstinences. The Tiika adds that they do not arise with mundane vipaakacuttas. All three virati cetasikas accompany the lokuttara citta, and their object is nibbaana. When they accompany the lokuttara magga-citta, they eradicate the bases of wrong doing. The fruition-consciousness, phalacitta, is the result of magga-citta and this is also accompanied by all three viratis. **** Nina. 48697 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. nilovg Hi Tep, op 11-08-2005 03:03 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The most important word here is "combine". What is actually the > meaning of this word and how does it condition lokuttara citta? Is there > a straightforward explanation of this complex process("combining" the > various kinds of dhammas) that the text does not explain? ----- N: samodhaaneti: to put together, apply. Here is an example: Contact he combines through its meaning of combining (phassam > samodhaanatthena samodhaaneti). The meeting of visible object, eyebase and seeing is the manifestation of contact. In Thai the word prachum is used. There is a combination, a coming together of different conditions. This word is repeated all the time in the text. It shows us that many different conditions are needed to attain lokuttara citta. It is a complex process. All the 37 factors pertaining to enlightenment are mentioned. Several cetasikas are mentioned again in the different classifications, but each time there is another aspect of them. Nina. 48698 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Dependent Origination nilovg Hi Howard and Larry, Larry answered your Q. and I could add an example. Seeing that arises now is vipaakacitta, it is part of the cycle. It is conditioned by past kamma. On account of seeing we cling to what we see and thus we create again conditions for future rebirth. Clinging is not vipaaka, it is akusala citta and this can motivate akusala kamma that can produce result in the future in the form of rebirth and vipaakacittas in the course of life. The D.O. teaches us about the past, the present and the future. It teaches us about the round of kamma, the round of vipaaka, the round of defilements. A triple round forever spinning. Nina. op 11-08-2005 01:06 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Somebody I know, not on DSG, told me that he understood all the factors > of the 12-link scheme as simultaneous. 48699 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Dependent Origination upasaka_howard Thank you, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/11/05 10:37:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Larry, Larry answered your Q. and I could add an example. Seeing that arises now is vipaakacitta, it is part of the cycle. It is conditioned by past kamma. On account of seeing we cling to what we see and thus we create again conditions for future rebirth. Clinging is not vipaaka, it is akusala citta and this can motivate akusala kamma that can produce result in the future in the form of rebirth and vipaakacittas in the course of life. The D.O. teaches us about the past, the present and the future. It teaches us about the round of kamma, the round of vipaaka, the round of defilements. A triple round forever spinning. Nina. op 11-08-2005 01:06 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Somebody I know, not on DSG, told me that he understood all the factors > of the 12-link scheme as simultaneous. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48700 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' onco111 Justin: "On the negative side, evangelicals tend to be intolerant, close-minded, and even hostile toward any other faith" -- unlike Justin, of course! :) 48701 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:27am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Howdy Joop, Thanks for the lovely post! It is really nice, to everyone. I want to respond to the part you wrote to me: Joop: I totally agree with you about metta, James. It's only a pitty that to you Vism is 'an ancient text' at (nearly?) the same level as the Tipitaka as you said in #48580. I think Vism. is a commentary and all commentaries, old and new, are interpretation of the Teaching of the Buddha. James: Glad that you agree with me about metta. I am not always an easy person to understand and I must admit that it delights me when someone does understand. But one thing you did misunderstand about one of my previous posts is the priority I place on the Vism. Yes, I consider the Vism. an ancient text because it is old and it is Theravada, but that doesn't mean I put it at the same level as the Tipitaka! Goodness gracious no! Actually, to explain, I don't even consider the Tipitaka (minus Abhid.) an 'ancient text' because it wasn't written. It wasn't composed and hammered out, using logic (with some wisdom) and ego. It is a spontaneous utterance of complete and pure wisdom of the Buddha- it isn't a text, to my way of thinking. As dictionary.com defines text: "The original words of something written or printed, as opposed to a paraphrase, translation, revision, or condensation." So, a text is something written or printed, which is inferior to the Tipitaka (minus Abhid.). Buddhaghosa wrote the Vism. to impress and convince the monks of Sri Lanka as to his worthiness- it is a work of ego and therefore contains many flaws. Hope this explanation clears the matter for you. I am definitely not a Vism.-hugger, but I will use those parts of the Vism. I agree with as support from time to time. Metta, James 48702 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:57am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 James: "Buddhaghosa wrote the Vism. to impress and convince the monks of Sri Lanka as to his worthiness..." I had never given it much thought before, but I suppose that I thought he only wanted to: i. teach Dhamma, and ii. compile and consolidate ancient commentaries in one place so that they would not be lost. Now that you've revealed the truth, I feel silly for having judged his motives so rashly. :) Metta, Dan 48703 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 476) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) These are nine different stocks of akusala dhamma. The first four stocks have been discussed in the previous posts. 5. upadaana dhamma ( clinging, grasping, gripping, fuel ) Upadaana means 'fuel' 'supply' 'provision'. Daana means given and upa is a kind of prefix and it means 'near' 'on' 'up on' 'up to'. So upadaana means 'given supply that is close to'. Upadaana also means 'drawing upon' 'grasping' 'holding on' 'gripping' 'attachment'. Another Pali word is 'upadaahati', which also means 'supply' 'nourish' 'furnish' 'give'. Here 'give' is not a simple 'give'. Because there is a prefix 'upa'. So upadaana is deeply rooted 'fuel' that will supply 'dhamma' kept alive and that will keep 'dhamma' going. It is firmly attached dhamma. So it is called firm attachment or clinging or grasping. There are 4 different upadaana dhamma. They are 1. kaamupadaana or 'clinging to sense desire' 2. ditthupadaana or 'clinging to speculation' 3. silabbatupadaana or 'clinging to beliefs in rites' 4. attavadupadaana or 'clinging to belief in soul theory' Basically there are only two dhamma in all these 4 upadaana dhamma. They are lobha cetasika and ditthi cetasika. Lobha comes with the name of kaamupadaana or clinging to sense desire. Latter three upadaana or clingings are all ditthi cetasika or mental factor of worng view. As they each differ from one another there have to be three different wrong views and clinging to these 3 wrong views are called ditthupadaana, silabbatupadaana and attavadupadaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. htootintnaing Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your extensive explanation from Co and Subco. Please see below. I have a question. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, --------- >Htoo: > 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th are all evidently aruupa jhaana. > But 8th is nirodha samapatti or cessation-attainment. > Nirodha-samapatti arises for 7 days and then arahats emerge. > But that sutta says 'anuloma, patiloma, anuloma and patiloma'. ------------ N: This is about the vasis, the masteries of jhana: attainment in forward and backward order, without stopping in any one attainment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. But what I asked was like this. Foreward order: 1st emancipation to 8th emancipation (nirodha-samapatti) Backward order: 8th emancipation to 1st emancipation Foreward and backward order: 1st to 8th and 8th to 1st emancipation So there are 3 occasions of nirodha-samapatti. Is it possible? This is my question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo:Why should the first 3 emancipation ruupa jhaana? > > There are 4 ruupa jhaanas. Here why should 3? ----------- N: I think all rupajhanas are included, but the way they are presented here is somewhat different from the usual way. They are presented by way of vimokkhas, liberations. Thus, the four rupajhanas are included in thre liberations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. This is meaningful and make sense. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- N: The Cessation, nirodha is the eighth liberation. > Co: it is completely purified and liberated from the four nama- khandhas. > > Subco: It can by attained only by ariyans and because it qualifies as the > attainment of 'nibbaana here and now', since it terminates in the noble > fruit.> > It is explained that he is liberated in both ways, ubhatobhaagavimutta: > through the immaterial attainments he is liberated from the material body > and through the path he is liberated from the mental body. > Subco: liberated from the defilements. > The subco also explains that if one gains even one arupajhana one can apply > the name eight emancipations even to a single part of the set. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you have pariyatti, pa.tipatti and pa.tivedha and attain necessary knowledge (naana) in this very life. With much respect, Htoo Naing 48705 From: nina Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:34am Subject: Cambodian Lectures nilovg Dear Friends, This was our evening reading: Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re: HELP ! HELP ! HELP ! htootintnaing Dear Matheesa, Thanks you very very much for your kind explanation. Your message beautifully explains me regarding the part of sutta 'mahaanidaana'. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > It's 4.45 in the morning on a very late night shift. Maurice's > translation suddenly seems to make a lot of sense. The link seems to > be deepening stages of samadhi. > > (1) Possessing form, one sees forms. [357] That is the first > > liberation. > > M: Interesting that the Buddha sees this as a liberation. This sounds > like vipassana, bare attention. Maybe liberation from lobha, dosa, > moha and just seeing rupa. 48707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. nilovg op 11-08-2005 19:32 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > But that sutta says 'anuloma, patiloma, anuloma and patiloma'. > ------------ > N: This is about the vasis, the masteries of jhana: attainment in > forward and backward order, without stopping in any one attainment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I understand. But what I asked was like this. > > Foreward order: > > 1st emancipation to 8th emancipation (nirodha-samapatti) > > Backward order: > > 8th emancipation to 1st emancipation > > Foreward and backward order: > > 1st to 8th and 8th to 1st emancipation > > So there are 3 occasions of nirodha samaapatti... Is it possible? ------- N: The Co adds: a result of his great proficiency. He is liberated in both ways. Co: <'Whenever he wants (yatthicchakam) signifies place: in whatever place he wishes. 'In whatever way he wants' (yadicchakam) signifies the attainment: whichever attainment he wishes.'As long as he wants' (yaavaticchakam) signifies the length of time: for as long a period of time as he wishes.> I just copy these texts but I cannot imagine how all this comes about. I understand that he is very proficient because he developed the right causes. So it is possible for him to go through all these liberations in order and in reverse order. Thanks for your sincere good wishes at the end. Nina. 48708 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:25am Subject: Satipatthaana (08) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' Again as in 15 contemplations on 'breathing', these 15 contemplations on 'posture' are also on 'ruupa' or material phenomena. 1. contemplation on 'going' [of own body] 2. contemplation on 'standing' [of own body] As explained in 'contemplation on going', this contemplation on standing is not on 'the idea of standing' or on 'the word standing'. But the meditator has been perceiving ruupas that arise from the act of standing. Standing is a posture that has been changed from sitting posture or walking posture. Wherever it comes, what the meditator perceives is 'ruupa' which is 'vayo' or 'supportiveness' at heels, at joints, at muscles. When he attends at breathing (15 contemplations) he just attends it. When he perceives an idea to move his body, he just notes it and follows it. By following this, he is no more at breathing. But it is a bit like cittaanupassanaa or contemplation on consciousness. The movements are to support the body changing from sitting to standing. Right now there, he perceives well 'standing'. This means he perceives all ruupa that arise from standing. Then he moves to walk and this has been discussed in the previous post. When he arrives at the intended place there arise an idea to stop walking. He notes that and then stop walking and there he stands and note and perceives ruupas that arise from standing posture. At some time there arises an idea to sit. He just note that naama and then follow all arising ruupa from that changing posture. Then he contemplates on sitting. 3. contemplation on 'sitting' [of own body] Again as in walking and standing, what the meditator has to note are just naama or ruupa and no other things. When he sits he just perceives ruupa that arise from sitting posture. There are ruupa call 'vayo' that support intended position of limbs and trunk and so on. All proprioceptions or the senses of joint-positions are 'vayo' ruupa and he perceives them. Then again he may go back to 15 contemplations on breathing. Or equally he may go straight to contemplate on 'lying posture' if he changes his body into lying. 4. contemplation on 'lying' [of own body] This contemplation is like contemplations on other 3 postures. It is to contemplate on 'ruupa' or 'naama' and not on 'the idea of lying' or not on the word 'lying'. When this posture is well stabilized, he may move back to 15 contemplations on breathing. With long practice, the meditator becomes proficient in noting on breathing and postures. As in case of breathing, he sometimes perceives that 'others will be walking, standing, sitting, lying. There, ruupas will be arising whatever individuals may or may not be perceiving and noting them'. So he contemplates on other people's postures (ruupas arise from postures). 5. contemplation on 'walking' [of others' body] 6. contemplation on 'standing' [of others' body] 7. contemplation on 'sitting' [of others' body] 8. contemplation on 'lying' [of others' body] At a time, he may be perceiving ruupas that arise in both his own body and ruupas that arise in other people's body. He contemplates ruupas will be arising in my own body & other people body when walking, standing, sitting, and lying. 9. contemplation on 'walking' [of own and others' body] 10.contemplation on 'standing' [of own and others' body] 11.contemplation on 'sitting' [of own and others' body] 12.contemplation on 'lying' [of own and others' body] While perceiving these ruupas he may also think there are causes of these ruupas. These ruupas have originations. These ruupas cannot arise without causes. And there are dissolutions of these ruupas and there are causes of dissolutions. Sometimes he perceives dissolution and its causes. And sometimes he perceives both originationand dissolution. These are 3 extra contemplations on postures. They are 13. contemplation on 'origination' of 'ruupas in posture' 14. contemplation on 'dissolution' of 'ruupas in posture' 15. contemplation on 'both origination and dissolution' of posture. Samudaya dhamma are originating dhamma. Anupassati means 'contemplate in detail'. Anupassii means 'contemplating in detail'. Samudaya dhammanupassii means 'contemplating on origination'. Here there are 5 dhammas in samudaya dhammanupassana or contemplation on origination. They are 1. occurence of respective ruupas 2. presence of avijjaa or ignorance 3. presence of tanhaa or craving 4. presence of kamma 5. presence of nutritional support Because of avijja, tanha, kamma, and nutrition there arise ruupas. The meditator is perceiving that ruupa and also perceive origination. The arising of new and new 'ruupa' is 'nibbatti lakkhana'. Likewise when these pass away there is dissolution of ruupa. These dissolutiuoin factors are 1. disappearance of avijjaa or ignorance 2. disappearance of tanhaa or craving 3. disappearance of kamma 4. disappearance of nutritional support. When the meditator contemplates on these 4 causes of dissolution and the disappeance of ruupa then he is said to be perceiving 'vaya dhamma' or 'dissolution' and along with the fact disappearance and these 4 causes there are 5 dhammas as vaya dhamma or dissolution. Sometimes he perceives both origination and dissolution. While he is perceiving on breathing, posture, and these causes and dissolution factors he is not depending on anything with tanha and avijjaa. So at the time he see 'naama' or 'ruupa' he is being liberated from binding of tanha and avijjaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48709 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:53pm Subject: Missionary Zeal was: Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion egberdina Hi Justin, Thanks for the on-going feedback. It is useful indeed. > > Converting to christianity would have far more consequences than just changing the > rituals of the priesthood. If all Buddhism is to you is chanting in Pali, then it wouldn't > make much of a difference. Of course that is just a one of the many duties of a monk. > The Teachings of the Buddha, to me, are among other things, about uprooting the belief in the efficacy of chanting, rites and rituals. It is my understanding that despite this, Buddhism for the common man and woman in Asia is indeed nothing more than chanting, rites and rituals, given meaning by the most amazing superstitions. Because this is what is dispensed to them by the common sangha. On another note, it strikes me that you, if only in thought, are at least as zealous as the evangelicals. They are zealous in their conversion attempts, you are zealous in your need to withstand them. Perhaps you will find the following useful or interesting. Imagine that you been been given 1 minute of air time on TV, and you have the assurance that the whole world will see you and hear what you have to say. I would be very interested to read what you would do in that minute. Rest assured I will not query anything you write. Even better, I will tell you what I would do in that minute :-) Kind Regards Herman 48710 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Dan and James, I am always happy to see posts from you guys. I'll chip in with my thoughts. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > James: "Buddhaghosa wrote the Vism. to impress and convince > the monks of Sri Lanka as to his worthiness..." > > I had never given it much thought before, but I suppose that I thought > he only wanted to: i. teach Dhamma, and ii. compile and consolidate > ancient commentaries in one place so that they would not be lost. Now > that you've revealed the truth, I feel silly for having judged his > motives so rashly. :) History is the history of conflict. What is handed down to us is what, over time, has survived or has adapted to survive ongoing conflict. The things that are now, are the things that have worked best in their situations. This process of adaption goes on and on and on. It is just conditionality. In amongst this is the idea that a perfect, pristine, unaltered Buddha-Dhamma has been transmitted to us. The view that the right monks, at the right time, assimilated the right understanding and rightly transmitted it to the next generation, thereby each time thwarting the wrong views that abound, is a romantic one IMHO. To maintain this view we ourselves have to reject here and now all the views that abound, bar one, and come out as either Theravadin, Mahayanist, Vajrayanist, Zoroastrian, Rosacrucian, Buddhagosist, Christian and so on. The Buddha taught anicca. IMHO anicca applies to any symbolic representation of what he wrote that they wrote that them wrote that she said that he said as well. Though there are many different surviving Tipitakas with commentaries and subcommentaries, albeit with different names, the Buddha that spawned them paranibbana'd a long time ago. There is something very paradoxical about struggling to keep alive a teaching that leads to extinction, isn't there? Kind Regards Herman 48711 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > The Buddha taught anicca. IMHO anicca applies to any symbolic > representation of what he wrote that they wrote that them wrote that > she said that he said as well. Though there are many different > surviving Tipitakas with commentaries and subcommentaries, albeit with > different names, the Buddha that spawned them paranibbana'd a long > time ago. There is something very paradoxical about struggling to keep > alive a teaching that leads to extinction, isn't there? > > > ++++++++ Dear Herman What are these different Tipitakas and commentaries? You seem to be saying there is no value in preserving the Buddhas teaching. If you believe that, it is an indication of conceit- you believe you or the rest of the world can somehow find the way out of samsara without the help of the triplegem. You devalue the hundreds of generations of Bhikkhus, who preserved the true Dhamma so that we can have it today. Robertk 48712 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question egberdina Hi Jon, It sounds like you're having a great holiday. Isn't it lovely that you can work even on a long sweeping beach, within earshot of the pounding surf? :-) > > > I was slightly pleased that I was able to ask Jon a question to which > > he didn't have an answer. > > > > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > > as the previous nama was knowing? > > And I still don't have an answer ;-)), but then I still haven't quite > understood your point. Are you asking how this piece of information could > have been known to the original author of it, or are you asking something > about the process in which a rupa is experienced by citta? > > Sorry to be slow in getting your drift. > == No worries. My question is about how this can be known by anyone, and if it can't be known, how can anything be said about the relative duration of rupas at all. Just to refresh, it is said that namas are the "units" of knowing. Anything that is known is known by a nama. So, regardless of whether namas have fixed duration or variable duration, nothing can be known ,in a namic sense, beyond the scope of that nama. Nama is the lowest common denominator, so to speak. So a nama knows a rupa, and the nama falls away. My question is : how can or does a consequent nama know that it is knowing the SELFSAME rupa as a preceding one? Wouldn't there have to be another nama in there, besides the nama that is knowing the rupa, that knows that the rupa hasn't fallen away yet ==> therefore it is still the same one. But if that is the case, then at least some namas have the same duration as rupas, which basically means you have to throw the whole 1 nama = 1/17 or 1/13 or 1/8 rupa theory out the window. But then, why let reality get in the way of a good theory, hey what? :-) Kind Regards Herman 48713 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:12pm Subject: [dsg] Lokuttara Daana Of A Sotaapanno --- Re: Lokuttarajjh âna - an Abhidhamma term corvus121 Dear Nina Thank you so much for clearing up my misunderstanding here. Thanks also for your interesting comments on DO to Howard and Larry - very clear. We are all looking forward to our weekend of Dhamma discussions with Jon and Sarah in Cooran and Noosa. And guess what ... it has just started raining!! We have all been hoping for rain because the countryside is so very dry. So Jon and Sarah can add "rain-making" to their long list of accomplishments. (-: Bye for now Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman and Andrew, > the point of this sutta is that the monk should not neglect seclusion, > developing calm. > He does not spend the time: I would say: does not spend all his time. > The Thai is clearer: he is not absorbed in them while day and night passing. > A certain balance is needed. > The Co: he should develop samatha and vipassana. Co mentions the meaning of > jhaayati, meditate. The 36 subjects of Samatha and the contemplation of the > lakkhana, characteristics, of for example the khandhas, the aayatanas > (sensefields), seeing them as impermanent, etc. > I prefer the PTS translation that elaborates what he is studying: sutta, > geyya, etc. > Nina. > op 10-08-2005 00:44 schreef Egbert op hhofman@b...: > > > He does not > > spend the time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops > > internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives > > according to the Teaching. 48714 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:22pm Subject: The Three P's (was--- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term) corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: The study of the > Teachings is not to arrive at a consistent theory of Buddhism, not to > arrive at a theoretical understanding of reality according to the > Buddha. Listening to the Dhamma is only for delight, and delight is > only for joy , and joy is only for pleasantness, and pleasantness is > only for concentration, and concentration is, ultimately, only for > Nibbana. Hi Herman I've snipped down to your thesis above, not meaning to dismiss your scholarship and references. As you would expect, I am having trouble accepting your thesis ... but that hasn't stopped me enjoying it. (-: If ever you make it to Cooran, we must make sure that Brian is there to meet you. I would just like to see what happens when 2 entirely original and fresh thinkers put their heads together [Brian made a career out of teaching babies to swim when everyone said it couldn't be done. You'd like him.] Best wishes Andrew T 48715 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi RobertK, Thanks for your post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > > The Buddha taught anicca. IMHO anicca applies to any symbolic > > representation of what he wrote that they wrote that them wrote that > > she said that he said as well. Though there are many different > > surviving Tipitakas with commentaries and subcommentaries, albeit with > > different names, the Buddha that spawned them paranibbana'd a long > > time ago. There is something very paradoxical about struggling to keep > > alive a teaching that leads to extinction, isn't there? > > > > > > ++++++++ > Dear Herman > What are these different Tipitakas and commentaries? > > You seem to be saying there is no value in preserving the Buddhas > teaching. If you believe that, it is an > indication of conceit- you believe you or the rest of the world can > somehow find the way out of samsara without the help of the triplegem. > You devalue the hundreds of generations of Bhikkhus, who preserved the > true Dhamma so that we can have it today. > Robertk I do believe that every school of thought have their own sacred scriptures. And I think it is possible to reduce many of these to a proto-teaching. Which I believe to be the original teachings of the Buddha. But we don't have access to them directly, only to the handed down versions. Happily we do have access to the same reality that the Buddha penetrated. So any handed down scripture can be tested for validity. As I often do. I am not saying that there is no value in preserving the Buddha's teaching. But I am saying that you, me and everyone are having to decide time and again, what the Buddha's teaching is. Unless you just blindly grab whatever is handed to you, ignoring that 2600 years or more of selective inclusion and omission and redaction have transpired. And if that is what is done, that can be penetrated as an act of unbridled clinging. The common denominator between clinging to the accepted Theravadin sacred scriptures and clinging to the old rugged cross is clinging. I just wrote to Justin about my perception of what Buddhism is to the common man and woman in Asia. Am I incorrect in that assessment? If not, am I incorrect in devaluing the work of anyone who transmits superstition to the masses? On a technical note only - not everyone needs the triplegem. from Nyanatiloka * pacceka-buddha an 'Independently Enlightened One'; or Separately or Individually (=pacceka) Enlightened One (renderings by 'Silent' or 'Private Buddha' are not very apt). This is a term for an Arahat (s. ariya-puggala) who has realized Nibbána without having heard the Buddha's doctrine from others. He comprehends the 4 Noble Truths individually (pacceka), independent of any teacher, by his own effort. He has, however, not the capacity to proclaim the Teaching effectively to others, and therefore does not become a 'Teacher of Gods and Men', a Perfect or Universal Buddha (sammá-sambuddha). - Kind Regards Herman 48716 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:34pm Subject: The Three P's (was--- Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term) egberdina Hi Andrew, Thanks for the feedback. I hope all you guys and gals have a top Dhamma time together this weekend. Who knows, the time may come when there are not only Cooran weekends, but also Bathurst weekends :-) I am having great difficulty in thinking of KenH as a Howard :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > The study of the > > Teachings is not to arrive at a consistent theory of Buddhism, not > to > > arrive at a theoretical understanding of reality according to the > > Buddha. Listening to the Dhamma is only for delight, and delight is > > only for joy , and joy is only for pleasantness, and pleasantness is > > only for concentration, and concentration is, ultimately, only for > > Nibbana. > > Hi Herman > > I've snipped down to your thesis above, not meaning to dismiss your > scholarship and references. As you would expect, I am having trouble > accepting your thesis ... but that hasn't stopped me enjoying it. (-: > > If ever you make it to Cooran, we must make sure that Brian is there > to meet you. I would just like to see what happens when 2 entirely > original and fresh thinkers put their heads together [Brian made a > career out of teaching babies to swim when everyone said it couldn't > be done. You'd like him.] > > Best wishes > Andrew T 48717 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. lbidd2 Tep: "The most important word here is "combine". What is actually the meaning of this word and how does it condition lokuttara citta? Is there a straightforward explanation of this complex process("combining" the various kinds of dhammas) that the text does not explain?" Hi Tep, I understood "combine" as "bring to mind" the various ideas ("meanings") while practicing mindfulness. Combining the meaning/idea with mindfulness practice may give a glimpse of the reality behind the idea in association with the reality of the object of mindfulness. This is one of the functions of sati: to recollect the dhamma. "He combines the faith faculty through its meaning of resolution." Remembering faith as resolution you might see a little resolution in your mindfulness. Larry 48718 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:21pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >> > I do believe that every school of thought have their own sacred > scriptures. And I think it is possible to reduce many of these to a > proto-teaching. Which I believe to be the original teachings of the > Buddha. But we don't have access to them directly, only to the handed > down versions. ||||||||||| Dear Herman, And how do you know that the Tipikata as preserved by the Theravada is not the word of the Buddha? If you say it is not you are saying that the venerable Bhikkhus distorted it - but where and what texts, how is your insight so refined that you can detect this? _____________________________ Herman: Happily we do have access to the same reality that the > Buddha penetrated. So any handed down scripture can be tested for > validity. As I often do. >\||||||| And with your testing you are now convinced that Theravada is not the true teaching, you think the millions of Bhikkhus over the millenia can't equal your insight, you have seen better. ||||||||||||||| > I am not saying that there is no value in preserving the Buddha's > teaching. But I am saying that you, me and everyone are having to > decide time and again, what the Buddha's teaching is. Unless you just > blindly grab whatever is handed to you, ignoring that 2600 years or > more of selective inclusion and omission and redaction have transpired. ________ Where is all this selective omission etc that you are so sure about?? _________________ > > And if that is what is done, that can be penetrated as an act of > unbridled clinging. The common denominator between clinging to the > accepted Theravadin sacred scriptures and clinging to the old rugged > cross is clinging. __________________ Were the arahants at the first council clinging when they recited the Tipitaka? It is wisdom to know the difference between wrong view and right view, implying that all beliefs are the same is itself wrongview. __________________ > > I just wrote to Justin about my perception of what Buddhism is to the > common man and woman in Asia. Am I incorrect in that assessment? If > not, am I incorrect in devaluing the work of anyone who transmits > superstition to the masses? > _ I am not sure of your point. it is true that there are many immitations that are propagated around the world, that claim to be Buddhist. But that fact should prod anyone to strive even more to ensure the true Dhamma is taught , not to try to cover it over by saying all teachings are the same. With regard to you note below: To be a pacceka Buddha a being has listened and developed under previous Buddhas, in his final life he is born at a time when there is no Buddha but his accumulations of wisdom (developed by hearing true Dhamma in many prior lives) are such that he can continue in his final life without hearing anotehr Buddha. Robertk > On a technical note only - not everyone needs the triplegem. > > > from Nyanatiloka > > * > pacceka-buddha > > an 'Independently Enlightened One'; or Separately or Individually > (=pacceka) Enlightened One (renderings by 'Silent' or 'Private Buddha' > are not very apt). > > This is a term for an Arahat (s. ariya-puggala) who has realized > Nibbána without having heard the Buddha's doctrine from others. He > comprehends the 4 Noble Truths individually (pacceka), independent of > any teacher, by his own effort. He has, however, not the capacity to > proclaim the Teaching effectively to others, and therefore does not > become a 'Teacher of Gods and Men', a Perfect or Universal Buddha > (samm?Esambuddha). - > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 48719 From: connie Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:36pm Subject: vism ch 14, cont'd nichiconn dear friends, i am putting a pdf of UTin's translation from p555 thru the end of ch14 in the files section rather than posting the parts that match up with the sections in Path of Purification. I hope that doesn't inconvenience anyone. peace, connie 48720 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry { and Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo} - I was glad while pondering the "straightforward explanation" you had made in the following post about "combining" the dhammas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "The most important word here is "combine". What is actually the > meaning of this word and how does it condition lokuttara citta? Is there > a straightforward explanation of this complex process("combining" the > various kinds of dhammas) that the text does not explain?" > > Hi Tep, > > I understood "combine" as "bring to mind" the various ideas ("meanings") while practicing mindfulness. Combining the meaning/idea with mindfulness practice may give a glimpse of the reality behind the idea in association with the reality of the object of mindfulness. This is one of the functions of sati: to recollect the dhamma. > > "He combines the faith faculty through its meaning of resolution." > > Remembering faith as resolution you might see a little resolution in > your mindfulness. > > Larry Tep: The translator of Breathing Treatise gave several meanings for the word 'resolution'(adhimokkha) as follows : exertion, establishment, non-distraction, seeing. The mindfulness of the meanings of saddha as 'resolution' indeeds helps us "see a little more resolution" like you very well said. Thank you, Larry. Sincerely, Tep ========== 48721 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' jonoabb Hi Justin Justin wrote: >Hi John, > >I appreciate your post. I agree with what you say in theory. However, using aid and fear as >forms of coercion is immoral, don't you think? This is exactly why missionaries target >people in developing countries. When educated people can research, discuss and then >choose to convert to another religion, that is much different then someone being coerced >to convert through aid with 'strings attached'. > >Also, the evangelical christian missionaries insist that their religion (and their narrow >interpretation of the bible) is the only way toward peace and salvation. They believe and >teach that people who don't accept jesus as their savior will go to hell, no matter how >wholesome they live their life. That is intolerant and disrepectful to everyone else. They >believe the Lord Buddha himself is in hell...as well as Ghandi, and eventually the King of >Thailand. Is this not devisive? > > It may well be that everything you say here is correct (or at least arguably so). But if your real concern is the preservation of the sasana, then why not give more weight to what the Buddha had to say about the matter? If the Buddha said that the best way of preserving the teachings is to study and practise them, then it seems we don't need to worry too much about perceived attacks by those of other faiths (which have probably been going on more or less continuously over the past 2500 years or so anyway). What do you think? Jon 48722 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >But how is that ignorance to be lessened and eventually overcome if not by >coming to directly understand the difference between namas and rupas (as a >first step)? >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > I fail to understand how what you just rhetorically asked relates to what >you quoted from me. In any case, I *do* distinguish namas from rupas, and I >have said so. > OK, I haven't explained very well. Yes, I understand that you do distinguish namas from rupas, but I was having difficulty reconciling that with your reservations about the need to know by direct experience the difference between the two. As I see it, the direct understanding of the difference between namas and rupas is a necessary part of the development of insight. Now it is of course possible to misunderstand what that involves, as indeed it is possible to misunderstand any aspect of the teachings, but that consideration aside do you have any reservations on the substantive matter of the importance of directly understanding a presently arising nama as nama or rupa as rupa? > That depends on what you mean by (physical) 'pain'. When most people use >the term, they mean an unpleasant physical sensation - a pressure or ache or >sting etc, and that is a rupa. If, instead, one is referring to the *feeling* >of that rupa as unpleasant, that is nama. And the disliking of either of these >is also nama, a different nama - a mental reaction. Okay? > > Well, I was not referring to a theoretical analysis, but to what goes on when pain actually occurs -- is there at such times clear understanding of the difference between namas and rupas, or is there likely to be confusion? (In terms of theoretical analysis, I would say there is body-consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling experiencing the rupas of hardness and temperature. And as you say this may well be followed by moments of aversion to that experience.) > In other posts you have talked about the hearing >event in a way that suggests the two, although distinguishable in theory, >are not distinguishable in practice at the moment of their occurring >(perhaps I have misunderstood you). >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > Yes, I think you have. Consciousness is not an independent entity, it is >a fundamental operation that arises co-occuringly and interdependently with >other phenomena, never exisiting *on its own*, but it is certainly >distinguishable. The inside and outside of a box are distinguishable - they are not the same, but they are also interdependent and inseparable. > My reading of the suttas is that consciousness is a kind of conditioned dhamma, having the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, that experiences the data through the 6 different doorways. I'm not sure if that's the same as what you mean by 'a fundamental operation that arises co-occuringly and interdependently with other phenomena, never existing *on its own*', but I'd be interested to know why you see the need to depart so much from the standard description found in the suttas. How does it help to introduce the concept of a 'fundamental operation', and how does an operation differ from a dhamma? What is the significance of consciousness 'never existing on its own' (while that might be true, what does it add to the description of being 'conditioned'?). By the way, it is important to keep in mind that visible object is also a conditioned dhamma, having the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is a recurring theme of the suttas that seeing consciousness and visible object have in common that they are (merely) conditioned dhammas having the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. However, they differ as regards to which of the 5 khandhas they fall within. > Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is > >directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it >differently? >----------------------------------- >Howard: > No, I see that exactly the same as you. I was speaking, however, of our >ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of >ignorance. When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), >there is true and valid experiencing. > > I'm not sure about 'true and valid' experiencing vs. 'defiled' experiencing (if that's the distinction you are making). Experiencing that is accompanied by ignorance, or any other kind of akusala, is no less 'true and valid', in terms of actual experiencing, than is experiencing that is accompanied by kusala factors. In any event, the moment of experiencing through the sense doors is accompanied by neither kusala nor akusala mental factors, so that would not seem to fall into either of your 2 groups. >Sanna itself is not defiled, in that it always performs its function of >marking the object. >---------------------------------- >Howard: > I'm not speaking of the marking phase so much as the recognition phase. >And it is not helpful to think, on the basis of technical terminological usage, >that our recognition or perception is undefiled. It is very much defiled. If >sa~n~na, in its recognition function, were undefiled, we'd be "far along" >already. As to how well sa~n~na fuctions in its marking operation in worldlings, >I'm not sure - but I would bet that it is also quite imperfect. > You say that if sa~n~na, in its 'recognition function', were undefiled, we'd be "far along" already. Are you referring to consciousness with panna when you talk about being "far along"? >Yes, agreed ;-)). But at a moment of satipatthana, the consciousness is >free of ignorance, and every moment of satipatthana brings us closer to >freedom from ignorance. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Yeah ... so? How many insightful moments do we have? And why do you think >that repeated study of "facts" is enough to cultivate such insight? How many >ariyans do you suppose there are in university Buddhist Studies programs? >(Precious few, I'll bet!!! ;-) > Of course, mere academic study of the teachings will not lead to direct understanding. But equally, without a correct intellectual understanding of the teachings, direct understanding cannot be developed. To answer your first question, there are relatively few moments of true insight, and that's why it's going to take a long time to reach enlightenment. At the time of the Buddha there were many people with highly developed insight, and they were able to directly relate the teaching as they heard it to the present moment. Jon 48723 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable - conditions. jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Herman) - > > I very much like what you are saying here about pa~n~na, meaning, of >course, that I see it the same way! ;-) However, are you sure this perspective is >compatible with Abhidhamma? (I'm not so sure.) > > I suppose you are referring to my comment about the scope of what can be known by panna? I have no reason to think it would be incompatible with Abhidhamma, but you're welcome to elaborate further on why you think it could be otherwise. Jon >I do understand why you say this, but I believe the knowledge of >conditionality spoken of in the suttas, being an aspect of panna of the >level of satipatthana/vipassana, is a 'direct knowing' of conditionality. > >Although there is only ever one object of consciousness and hence also of >the mental factor of panna, the scope of what can be known by panna is not >subject to the same 'single object' rule. The detail that panna may konw >about dhammas is potentially of vast scope (as in the case of a Buddha). > >Jon > 48724 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. jonoabb Dear Agrios agriosinski wrote: >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom >wrote: >[...] > > >>N: As Connie recently said (in the context of the Discriminations), you do not have to believe anything. Study what you are inclined to study, like the suttas. I think it very important that everyone enjoys his study. It is best for each individual to find out what is most beneficial for him. >>Phil recommended to Herman the Kindred Sayings, and I think especially in >>Kindred Sayings on Sense (IV) you find that it is like the >>Abhidhamma. >> >Dhamma is clear, dhamma is explained by the Blessed One with >clarity and from every possible point of approach. Then it is >explained from the beginning to the end. Then in reverse. >Dhamma is here, dhamma is experiential and the way of experience, >of practice is also explained in great detail by the Blessed One. > >Abidhamma is nothing like that. >Abidhammas teach things absent in Blessed One teachings >from which the most important I've listed already so you >and everyone else can read and correct me if I was wrong. > >But I see you don't want to discuss confusing definition >of sankhara nor trace source of confusion. >You change the topic of this thread to tell me that I am >free to study what I want. >I knew I am. >But thank you for remaining me anyway. > I think there has been a misunderstanding. It is not Nina's style to change the subject. The meaning (or rather the various meanings) of sankhara is a subject that has come up in the past, and is one that people find very difficult to come to terms with. I remember a long series of posts I had with Victor (now a monk) on this same point. I will try to track down the references to those posts, so you can get an idea of what is involved. I appreciate that you see the Abhidhamma as not being clear and logical like the suttas. Please rest assured that it was the same for most of us at first. It takes a lot of effort and much patience to get past the idea of just lists of things, and this cannot be forced before time, hence Nina's remarks about each person following their own order of preference. >[Nina] But one should find out in the course of the study whether Abhidhamma is Dhamma, whether it is true that the Abhidhamma is not different from the Sutta teaching. One can find out whether the Abhidhamma brings light in darkness, whether it creates order in the chaotic condition of our mind. > > > >[Agrios] I reject this point of view as well. >A shot of heroin creates order in mind. >Getting what one want creates order in chaotic condition of >mind. >Killing an enemy creates order in mind longing for revenge. >Lobotomy and brain surgery creates quiet, happy mind. >Stupidity and ignorance is a bliss. > So what would be your criteria for evaluating something that is presented as part of the teachings? >... The only reason for me to start this thread was to learn more >about sankharas. > > I hope you are not abandoning the thread just because it is not going quite the way you expected ;-)). It may be that there is more to the subject than you had anticipated. Jon 48725 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 0:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina { Larry, Sarah, Htoo, Howard, ...} - Nina: > In Thai the word prachum is used. There is a combination, a coming together of different conditions. > This word is repeated all the time in the text. It shows us that many > different conditions are needed to attain lokuttara citta. It is a complex > process. All the 37 factors pertaining to enlightenment are mentioned. > Several cetasikas are mentioned again in the different classifications, but each time there is another aspect of them. Tep: Thank you very much, Nina. I have thought about the Thai word, "pra-chum", too. Yes, it is like a meeting of people, bringing minds together -- here it is the meeting of dhammas, the bringing together of dhammas that give meanings. When this process is coupled with mindfulness development during the anapanasati, like Larry has explained, there are great benefits. Best wishes, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 11-08-2005 03:03 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > The most important word here is "combine". What is actually the > > meaning of this word and how does it condition lokuttara citta? Is there a straightforward explanation of this complex process ("combining" the various kinds of dhammas) that the text does not explain? > ----- > N: samodhaaneti: to put together, apply. > Here is an example: Contact he combines through its meaning of combining (phassam samodhaanatthena samodhaaneti). > The meeting of visible object, eyebase and seeing is the manifestation of contact. (snipped) > Nina. 48726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /faith and resolution. nilovg Hi Tep and Larry, I would like to add something about confidence and resolution from the Vis. and Tiika op 12-08-2005 04:20 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Tep: "The most important word here is "combine". > Text; "He combines the faith faculty through its meaning of resolution." > > Remembering faith as resolution you might see a little resolution in > your mindfulness. ----- Yes, because there is saddhaa, confidence. Then there is also firm resolution for kusala. N: The Expositor (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 119) states about saddha: <... It has purifying or aspiring as its characteristic. As the water-purifying gem of the universal monarch thrown into water causes solids, alluvia, waterweeds and mud to subside and makes the water clear, transparent and undisturbed, so faith arising discards the hindrances, causes the corruptions to subside, purifies the mind and makes it undisturbed: the mind being purified, the aspirant of noble family gives gifts, observes the precepts, performs the duties of "uposatha" and commences bhaavanaa.> As to the function of entering into, like the setting out across a flood, the Expositor explains this as the characteristic of "aspiring", by means of a simile. A crowd standing on both banks of a great river full of crocodiles, monsters, sharks and ogres, is afraid to cross over. A hero crosses the river and repels the dangerous animals with his sword, and leads the crowd in crossing over. The Tiika (Vis. XIV, 140) explains that entering into (pakkhandana.m) is entering into the object because of decision. Because of confidence one is decisive as to the performing of kusala. Text Vis.: It is manifested as non-fogginess, : or it is manifested as decision. N: The Tiika explains lack of confidence that is akusala as faithlessness when there are occasions for confidence, and as wrong decision (micchaadhimutti). Whereas the opposite of faithlessness is decision, resolution that is pure. The Tiika states that this is not the same as adhimokkha, determination, that is among the Œwhat-so-evers¹ or supplementary factors, yevapannakas, mentioned in the list of dhammas in the Dhammasangani. Here, the term resolution (adhimutti) is used to describe the manifestation of faith or confidence in wholesomeness. **** Nina. 48727 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 477 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) These are nine different stocks of akusala dhamma. The first four stocks have been discussed in the previous posts. 5. upadaana dhamma ( clinging, grasping, gripping, fuel ) There are 4 different upadaana dhamma. They are 1. kaamupadaana or 'clinging to sense desire' 2. ditthupadaana or 'clinging to speculation' 3. silabbatupadaana or 'clinging to beliefs in rites' 4. attavadupadaana or 'clinging to belief in soul theory' Upadaana is like fuel. All these 4 dhamma are fuel that supply continuously burning body of pancupadaanakkhandha. In all these 4 upadaana dhamma the main dhamma in them are lobha cetasika and ditthi cetasika. Ditthi cetasika or wrong-view here comes in 3 different forms of akusala dhamma. They are ditthupadaana, silabbatupadaana and attavadupadaana. All these 3 upadaana dhamma are eradicated by a single moment arising of stream-entering path-knowledge or sotapatti magga naana. In paticca-samuppaada or Dependent Origination there is a link called upadaana or clinging. There is some differences between these 4 upadaana dhamma and upadaana-link of 12 links of Dependent Origination. The link in Dependent Origination is combination of lobha cetasika and ditthi cetasika. But paticca-samuppaada mainly focuses on lobha cetasika which is tanha, and also upadaana. Upadaana seems like stronger form of lobha. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48728 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:42am Subject: Entering the Stream Supreme ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Entering the Noble Stream Leading to Nibbâna: At Savatthi the Buddha said: Bhikkhus, the eyes are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. All form is impermanent, changing, & becoming otherwise. The ear & all sound, the nose & all smell, the tongue & all taste, the body & all touch, the mind & all ideas are impermanent, transient, changing, and becoming otherwise... One who accepts these teachings by understanding, after having examined them by careful reflection, is called a Dhamma-follower! One who decides to place confidence in these teachings, is called a Faith-follower! Both such persons have entered the fixed track of correctness, entered a plane of superior being, & transcended the level of ordinary worldling. Such beings cannot do any action later resulting in rebirth in hell, or as animal, or as hungry ghost!!! Such Nobles are incapable of dying without first having enjoyed the fruit of stream-entry. Knowing & seeing these teachings thus, one is called a Stream-Enterer, saved from lower worlds, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as destination within 7 lives at most...!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 25(1) III 225 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48729 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. htootintnaing N: The Co adds: a result of his great proficiency. He is liberated in both ways. Co: <'Whenever he wants (yatthicchakam) signifies place: in whatever place he wishes. 'In whatever way he wants' (yadicchakam) signifies the attainment: whichever attainment he wishes.'As long as he wants' (yaavaticchakam) signifies the length of time: for as long a period of time as he wishes.> I just copy these texts but I cannot imagine how all this comes about. I understand that he is very proficient because he developed the right causes. So it is possible for him to go through all these liberations in order and in reverse order. Thanks for your sincere good wishes at the end. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, I personally accept that nirodha-samapatti cannot extend beyond 7 days. But under 7 days nirodha-samapatti can be exited. In this case 'predetermination will be needed'. So 1st to 8th and then 8th to 1st is possible provided 'exit' from nirodha-samapatti has been predetermined. Now I can sense 1. foreward order 2. backward order 3. foreward and backward order (but just before entering nirodha- samapatti the exit has to be predetermined). This is the matter of Mastery in jhaana. There also are jhaana jumping. Like 1st to 3rd and then to 5th and so on. There are kasina jumping. Like earth to fire, fire to water, water to wind, wind to earth and so on. These are just the matter of Mastery in jhaana. Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. I say this because once a person siad 'The Buddha can control ruupa'. :-)) With respect, Htoo Naing 48730 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, Nina { Larry, Sarah, Htoo, Howard, ...} - Tep: Thank you very much, Nina. [concentrated message/snipped message:] I have thought about the Thai word, "pra-chum", too. Yes, it is like a meeting of people, bringing minds together -- here it is the meeting of dhammas, the bringing together of dhammas that give meanings. When this process is coupled with mindfulness development during the anapanasati, like Larry has explained, there are great benefits. Best wishes, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Just a point, which is nothing. I have clinging. Clinging to orderness. Now my itchiness is relieved. Because I can see orderness, :-)). You know what I mean. Thank you much Tep, Htoo Naing 48731 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:05am Subject: Satipatthaana (09) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' In Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta, The Buddha preached to monks how 'a typical bhkkhu' [idha bhikkhu or bhikkhu under supervision of Bhagava's teachings] is practising. When 'contemplation on body' is considered, there finds a point of constant movement. That is breathing. This is perceptible for all. There is another place where there is a constant moving. It is our own heart beat. But this is not always perceptible. So The Buddha first described 'breathing meditation'. There are 15 contemplations on breathing and these have been discussed in detail. In any given day there are movements of body and specific postures of body. Among them there are 4 major postures. There also arise ruupa when these postures are adopted. So The Buddha described how to contemplate on postures. As The Buddha had preached other Dhamma these simple instructions does not mean vainly. That is 'he knows when he walk'. This happen because of language. But these matters have been discussed in the section of posture. Between the interval of adopting a defined specific posture there are many other detailed movements. The Buddha continued to describe on these detailed movements and preached that 'typical bhkkhu' contemplates on these detailed movements. For the reasons to simply understand The Buddha just described 20 detailed movements. But all other undescribed detailed movements are also included in these 20 detailed movements. 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 20 movements of own body, 20 movements of others, and 20 movements of both own and others are contemplated. So there are 60 contemplations on detail movements. Again there are originations in these detailed movement and dissolutions in these detailed movements. They are also contemplated. The 3rd contemplation is contemplation on both 'origination and dissolution'. Again contemplations on these 20 detailed movements are actually contemplation on 'ruupa' or 'naama' and nothing more than that. When these 20 detail movements are contemplated, the contemplation is on naama or ruupa. The contemplation is not on 'the idea of these 20 movements' or not on the word 'so and so movements'. What have been perceived are just naama or ruupa that arise from these 20 detail movement. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48732 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:18am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi RobertK, Thank you for your further questions. Is it right that you are a university lecturer? I am sure that you did once tell me, but I just can't remember at the moment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > >> > > I do believe that every school of thought have their own sacred > > scriptures. And I think it is possible to reduce many of these to a > > proto-teaching. Which I believe to be the original teachings of the > > Buddha. But we don't have access to them directly, only to the > handed > > down versions. > ||||||||||| > Dear Herman, > And how do you know that the Tipikata as preserved by the Theravada > is not the word of the Buddha? == I assume the original words of the Buddha to have been spoken. When I say that we don't have direct access to them, I just mean that we can't hear him speak them anymore. That's all. As Nina wrote the other day, it is such an enormous difference between writing to people, and meeting them face to face, talking and listening to them. The Sarah and Jon of my imagination, based on only having read their writings, are quite different to the Sarah and Jon that I have met. There is so much non-verbal communication happening in any physical encounter, one could nearly say that the words are just the commentary to the bodily intimation, which speaks volumes. These unspoken volumes do not make it to the printed page. == If you say it is not you are saying > that the venerable Bhikkhus distorted it - but where and what texts, > how is your insight so refined that you can detect this? > == I had no intention of representing matters this way. History is mostly story. I am not deeply attached to any particular version. Some versions make more sense to me than others, but the past is not subject to any definite verification. As you know, even the present can elude us. _____________________________ > Herman: Happily we do have access to the same reality that the > > Buddha penetrated. So any handed down scripture can be tested for > > validity. As I often do. > >\||||||| > > > > And with your testing you are now convinced that Theravada is not the true teaching, you think the millions of Bhikkhus over the millenia can't equal your insight, you have seen better. == I'm sorry if that is what you are reading, but it is not what I'm writing. Just as an aside, the notion of a true teaching is absurd to me. A teaching is a symbolic representation of reality, which is itself not symbolic. It is just a model, a way of thinking about what is itself not thought. Fair enough, there are good models and poor models, but a true model? I chipped in on an exchange between Dan and James about the Vism. I believe that Ven Buddhagosa, at times, made poor models of reality and of what the Buddha taught. It really is not that important to me. But I am curious that it is for you. What gives? == > > ||||||||||||||| > > I am not saying that there is no value in preserving the Buddha's > > teaching. But I am saying that you, me and everyone are having to > > decide time and again, what the Buddha's teaching is. Unless you > just > > blindly grab whatever is handed to you, ignoring that 2600 years or > > more of selective inclusion and omission and redaction have > transpired. > > ________ > Where is all this selective omission etc that you are so sure about?? > _________________ > > As I said before, this is a matter of history. And history is stories. Some people like one version of history, others prefer others. What can be known, for sure, is whether one is clinging to a version of the past. About the past we can only speculate. We make more or less reasonably coherent speculations, given the information that we have. Or we can be just plain incoherent about it. If you need Ven Buddhagosa's output to be a true model of what the Buddha taught, so be it. > > > > > And if that is what is done, that can be penetrated as an act of > > unbridled clinging. The common denominator between clinging to the > > accepted Theravadin sacred scriptures and clinging to the old rugged > > cross is clinging. > > ___________________ > > Were the arahants at the first council clinging when they recited > the Tipitaka? It is wisdom to know the difference between wrong view > and right view, implying that all beliefs are the same is itself > wrongview. > > == If it is of critical importance to you to believe that you have the very spoken words of the Buddha at your disposal then you have a problem. Whether or not it is the Buddha's words can only be a matter of faith. Your faith is conditioned. Your faith will change. Is your world going to implode? > > > __________________ > > > > > I just wrote to Justin about my perception of what Buddhism is to > the > > common man and woman in Asia. Am I incorrect in that assessment? If > > not, am I incorrect in devaluing the work of anyone who transmits > > superstition to the masses? > > > _ > > I am not sure of your point. it is true that there are many > immitations that are propagated around the world, that claim to be > Buddhist. But that fact should prod anyone to strive even more to > ensure the true Dhamma is taught , not to try to cover it over by > saying all teachings are the same. What is the difference between an evangelical Christian claiming to have the only way, and a Theravadin Buddhist who claims the exact same position? The proof of the pudding is not in the scripture. The Christian's claims can be verified after death only. They wil always be meta-physical. The Buddha spelled out the end of suffering. The proof of the pudding is this very moment. Kind Regards Herman 48733 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:27am Subject: Excluded from the cure? Theory first? egberdina Hi Phil, You thought I was finished, didn't you. Wrong !!!! :-) :-) (I don't know how to spell demonic laughter). > Besides, it's common-sense. Of course there is theory first. How > could the great teaching of anatta, the teaching that I'm sure we > all agree distinguishes the Dhamma from other spiritual teachings > (which all contain refraining from evil and doing good, and > suffering, and impermanence), how could it be understood without > considering it in theory first? I suppose people who believe in > mystical experiences say that it could but I am not interested in > mystical experiences now, though I used to be when I did a lot of > drugs. Self-view is conditioned. What are the conditions for self-view? Wouldn't it make an awful lot of sense if the Buddha sought to assist those followers for whom the penny didn't drop by uprooting their conditioned views through the removal of those very conditions? What did he tell his followers in relation to anatta: from the Mahasunnata Sutta `Ánanda, the Bhikkhu does not shine, attached to, fond of, yoked to and delighting in company and society. It is not possible that a Bhikkhu attached to, fond of, yoked to and delighting in company and society, should be a quick and easy gainer for nothing of pleasures of non-sensuality, seclusion, appeasement and enlightenment. It is possible that a Bhikkhu withdrawn from the crowd should be a quick, easy gainer for nothing, of the pleasures of non-sensuality, seclusion, appeasement and enlightenment. It is possible that he should attain the desired release of mind in stages or attain the unshakeable state instantly and abide. Ánanda, I do not see the attachment to a single matter, the change of which, thorough attachment would not arouse grief, lament, unpleasantness displeasure and distress. Ánanda, the Thus Gone One has realized this abiding, in which not attending to any signs, to abide internally in void-ness. To meet the Thus Gone One abiding thus, Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female, kings, chief ministers of kings, those of other faiths and their disciples approach. To them the Thus Gone One speaks only words that slant and bend towards seclusion, withdrawal from sensuality and undoubtedly words turning away from desires. Therefore Ánanda, the Bhikkhu should desire to abide internally void. For that the Bhikkhu should establish, settle, and bring the mind to a single point and concentrate." Self-view is conditioned by society. It is others that make us known as ourselves. The antidote - seclusion. No other - no self. Acquiring a theoretical understanding of anatta, with a view to realising it, is counterproductive. Anatta implies that there is not a separate being who can realise or understand anything. The actions of acquiring a theoretical understanding work to strengthen the very idea that the theoretical understanding is intended to undermine. That there is someone separate doing something. The realisation of anatta is just like the mystical experience you allude to, but don't want to have. But when it happens it is not a new arising. Anatta is the way things are and always have been. The realisation of anatta IS the disappearance of self-view. Anatta is not conditioned, but self-view is. Remove the conditions for the fog, and the fog lifts. Voila! Enjoy the seclusion and Kind Regards :-) Herman 48734 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / additions and Co./Itching&orderness buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote a coded message! A clarification might be useful. > Just a point, which is nothing. I have clinging. Clinging to > orderness. Now my itchiness is relieved. Because I can see >orderness, :-)). You know what I mean. > > Thank you much Tep, > > Htoo Naing Tep: Was the "itching" gone because: a) you saw my using 'thank you very much' rather than 'thank you much' ? b) you were delighted by the "orderness" in the dialogue I had with Nina? c) you had experienced an orderly understanding of the word "combine"? d) _________________ (fill in the blank). Thank you much, Htoo. Tep, yours truly ========================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > Hi, Nina { Larry, Sarah, Htoo, Howard, ...} - > > Tep: Thank you very much, Nina. > > [concentrated message/snipped message:] > > I have thought about the Thai word, "pra-chum", too. Yes, it is like > a meeting of people, bringing minds together -- here it is the meeting > of dhammas, the bringing together of dhammas that give meanings. > When this process is coupled with mindfulness development during the anapanasati, like Larry has explained, there are great benefits. > > Best wishes, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, > (snipped) 48735 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /faith and resolution. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Larry {and all } - The Expositor I, Part IV, Chapter I, 119 on 'saddha' is great, Nina. I will save it in my notebook. > N: The Expositor (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 119) states about saddha: > <... It has purifying or aspiring as its characteristic. As the > water-purifying gem of the universal monarch thrown into water causes > solids, alluvia, waterweeds and mud to subside and makes the water clear, transparent and undisturbed, so faith arising discards the hindrances, causes the corruptions to subside, purifies the mind and makes it undisturbed: the mind being purified, the aspirant of noble family gives gifts, observes the precepts, performs the duties of "uposatha" and commences bhaavanaa.> > As to the function of entering into, like the setting out across a flood, > the Expositor explains this as the characteristic of "aspiring", by means of a simile. A crowd standing on both banks of a great river full of crocodiles, monsters, sharks and ogres, is afraid to cross over. A hero crosses the river and repels the dangerous animals with his sword, and leads the crowd in crossing over. [ending quote] Tep: I couldn't help visualizing Moses parting the water to lead the Jews across the river. However, the idea that saddha when arising can discard hindrances is interesting. I have two questions for you, dear Nina. Does saddha always arise together with chanda and viriya, or does it condition the latter? Must saddha be balanced with panna in order to get the job done right? Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Larry, > I would like to add something about confidence and resolution from the Vis. > and Tiika (snipped) > > N: The Tiika explains lack of confidence that is akusala as faithlessness when there are occasions for confidence, and as wrong decision (micchaadhimutti). Whereas the opposite of faithlessness is decision, resolution that is pure. The Tiika states that this is not the same as adhimokkha, determination, that is among the Œwhat-so-evers ¹ or supplementary factors, yevapannakas, mentioned in the list of dhammas in the Dhammasangani. Here, the term resolution (adhimutti) is used to describe the manifestation of faith or confidence in wholesomeness. > **** > Nina. 48736 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:14am Subject: Itching & orderness htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - You wrote a coded message! A clarification might be useful. > Just a point, which is nothing. I have clinging. Clinging to > orderness. Now my itchiness is relieved. Because I can see >orderness, :-)). You know what I mean. > Thank you much Tep, > Htoo Naing Tep: Was the "itching" gone because: a) you saw my using 'thank you very much' rather than 'thank you much' ? b) you were delighted by the "orderness" in the dialogue I had with Nina? c) you had experienced an orderly understanding of the word "combine"? d) _________________ (fill in the blank). >Thank you much, Htoo. > > > Tep, > yours truly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, You rightly grasped my idea. The right answer is a). Again this does not mean others two that is b) and c) are wrong. d) does not need to be filled in. Because I gave the right answer as a). That is my itchiness was gone is because of 'seeing the expression _thank you very much_ . To indicate this, I delibrately used 'thank you much' below. Once a lady aruged with me that she spelt rightly. I said that I did not find it in the latest dictionary. Her explanation was that her spelling was American. I was smiling whenever such explanation is heard. Because in real world in personal contact I do find many people like this. They said they were right. And that rightness is because of American rules of grammar. The example word for spelling variation is 'mould' and 'mold'. I would not argue if American style was stick to. But while all other writings were in line with contemporary English, I found strange to see such 'a particular spot to used with American spelling'. These 3 passages are like personal communication. Apology if this is not in line with DSG guideline. But I write this to help people sticking to rules. That is acceptable rules. When we are in DSG, we all have to abide all the guidelines of DSG. When we are communicating with English, we all have to follow right English in order not to break our communication. When we are discussing on a particular Dhamma we all have to stick to the discussion related to it. I just posted as 'itchiness'. Actually I did not have any itchiness or anything related to that. This also comprise any mental displeasure. I just talked 'inorderness' or 'unorderly fashion of writing'. This orderness help us mature. When we study Dhamma we will gain better knolwedge if we study orderly. If not well organised, then what we have studied will not be stored in our memory in orderly fashion. Inorderness or 'dis-order' leads to disorders. Then this leads to disasters. This leads to despair. This leads to total destruction. This is total opposite of peace. Dhamma sites are for spiritual peace. If not why are we here? So it is important that we all stick to the rules and we go in orderly fashion. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I do not sell or buy 'ego'. I do not sell or buy 'Buddha teachings'. I do not sell anything in the name of 'The Buddha'. What I want is 'cure' for all beings whether possible or not. That is 'cure' from the disease of 'suffering'. 48737 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 478 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) These are nine different stocks of akusala dhamma. The first four stocks have been discussed in the previous posts. 5. upadaana dhamma ( clinging, grasping, gripping, fuel ) There are 4 different upadaana dhamma. They are 1. kaamupadaana or 'clinging to sense desire' 2. ditthupadaana or 'clinging to speculation' 3. silabbatupadaana or 'clinging to beliefs in rites' 4. attavadupadaana or 'clinging to belief in soul theory' 1. kaamupadaana or clinging to sense-desire This clinging is also a fuel that supply arising of kaama-related existences or bhava or lives. So kaamupadaana is a cause of rebirhs. There are 6 kaamupadaana. They arise at ruupa or form, sadda or sound, gandha or smell, rasa or taste, photthabba or touch-sense, and dhamma or mind-object. All these 6 kaamupadaanas or fuel are destroyed by anaagaami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge. These anagams also eradicated ditthi or wrong-view. So they also have eradicated ditthupaada, silabatupadaana and attavaadupadaana. Therefore all anagams do not have any upadaana dhamma. That is why they are non-returners. Because they do not have any fuel to come back to human world. But anaagams or non-returners still have lobha or tanha. Because of that lobha they have to be reborn in suddhaavaasa bhuumis or 5 pure- abode in brahma realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48738 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/12/05 3:01:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > > >But how is that ignorance to be lessened and eventually overcome if not by > >coming to directly understand the difference between namas and rupas (as a > >first step)? > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I fail to understand how what you just rhetorically asked relates to what > > >you quoted from me. In any case, I *do* distinguish namas from rupas, and I > > >have said so. > > > > OK, I haven't explained very well. Yes, I understand that you do > distinguish namas from rupas, but I was having difficulty reconciling > that with your reservations about the need to know by direct experience > the difference between the two. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't have such reservations. I think that being unable to distinguish nama from rupa is a form of ignorance. I simply give far greater priority to seeing the tilakkhana in all things. --------------------------------------- > > As I see it, the direct understanding of the difference between namas > and rupas is a necessary part of the development of insight. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. It may very well be. But, as I know you will readily agree, we cannot just *decide* to see the difference. As far as I'm concerned, I need to look at whatever arises with as much clarity, focus, and attention as possible, permitting reality to reveal itself to me. If, in addition, I have studied well, contemplated well, practiced sila, cultivated calm, and carefully guarded the senses, I have some hope of wisdom arising. ----------------------------------- Now it is > > of course possible to misunderstand what that involves, as indeed it is > possible to misunderstand any aspect of the teachings, but that > consideration aside do you have any reservations on the substantive > matter of the importance of directly understanding a presently arising > nama as nama or rupa as rupa? --------------------------------------- Howard: As I have said, I have no problem with seeing things as they are being the right way for matters to be. It is of course nothing but counterproductive to confuse nama and rupa, as is all confusion. ---------------------------------------- > > > That depends on what you mean by (physical) 'pain'. When most people use > >the term, they mean an unpleasant physical sensation - a pressure or ache > or > >sting etc, and that is a rupa. If, instead, one is referring to the > *feeling* > >of that rupa as unpleasant, that is nama. And the disliking of either of > these > >is also nama, a different nama - a mental reaction. Okay? > > > > > > Well, I was not referring to a theoretical analysis, but to what goes on > when pain actually occurs -- is there at such times clear understanding > of the difference between namas and rupas, or is there likely to be > confusion? -------------------------------------------- Howard: We all are vulnerable to confusion, of course. For the most part, as regards pain for example, I do distinguish nama from rupa. What you called my "theoretical analysis" was actually a report of my experience. You made a mistake in presuming otherwise. ----------------------------------------------- > > (In terms of theoretical analysis, I would say there is > body-consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling experiencing the > rupas of hardness and temperature. And as you say this may well be > followed by moments of aversion to that experience.) -------------------------------------- Howard: That's what I experience. --------------------------------------- > > > In other posts you have talked about the hearing > >event in a way that suggests the two, although distinguishable in theory, > >are not distinguishable in practice at the moment of their occurring > >(perhaps I have misunderstood you). > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, I think you have. Consciousness is not an independent entity, it is > >a fundamental operation that arises co-occuringly and interdependently with > > >other phenomena, never exisiting *on its own*, but it is certainly > >distinguishable. The inside and outside of a box are distinguishable - they > are not the same, but they are also interdependent and inseparable. > > > > My reading of the suttas is that consciousness is a kind of conditioned > dhamma, having the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, that > experiences the data through the 6 different doorways. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So? There is nothing unusual in that reading. It is mine as well! --------------------------------------------- I'm not sure if > > that's the same as what you mean by 'a fundamental operation that arises > co-occuringly and interdependently with other phenomena, never existing > *on its own*', but I'd be interested to know why you see the need to > depart so much from the standard description found in the suttas. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: There are lots of points made in the suttas. What I wrote is also sutta-based, and is experientially clear to me as well. I feel no compuntion to restrict myself to only part of the teaching. --------------------------------------------- How > > does it help to introduce the concept of a 'fundamental operation', and > how does an operation differ from a dhamma? What is the significance of > consciousness 'never existing on its own' (while that might be true, > what does it add to the description of being 'conditioned'?). --------------------------------------------- Howard: Mutual conditioning and interdependence is important, Jon, particularly with regard to the "fundamental operation" of vi~n~nana, because there is a strong inclination to take vi~n~nana to be a "self". I don't get what you are after here, Jon. It seems like you are trying to "get me"! It seems you are doing all you can to try to catch me in some "heresy". I'd rather we didn't relate to each other that way. :-) ---------------------------------------------- > > By the way, it is important to keep in mind that visible object is also > a conditioned dhamma, having the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and > anatta. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No kidding! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- > It is a recurring theme of the suttas that seeing consciousness > and visible object have in common that they are (merely) conditioned > dhammas having the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > However, they differ as regards to which of the 5 khandhas they fall within. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no idea why you are raising this fact. ---------------------------------------------- > > >Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is > > > >directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it > >differently? > >----------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No, I see that exactly the same as you. I was speaking, however, of our > >ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of > >ignorance. When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by > wisdom), > >there is true and valid experiencing. > > > > > > I'm not sure about 'true and valid' experiencing vs. 'defiled' > experiencing (if that's the distinction you are making). Experiencing > that is accompanied by ignorance, or any other kind of akusala, is no > less 'true and valid', in terms of actual experiencing, than is > experiencing that is accompanied by kusala factors. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? Experiencing accompanied by ignorance is a true and valid as experiencing accompanied by wisdom??? Jon, what are you talking about! --------------------------------------------- In any event, the > > moment of experiencing through the sense doors is accompanied by neither > kusala nor akusala mental factors, so that would not seem to fall into > either of your 2 groups. > > >Sanna itself is not defiled, in that it always performs its function of > >marking the object. > >---------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I'm not speaking of the marking phase so much as the recognition phase. > >And it is not helpful to think, on the basis of technical terminological > usage, > >that our recognition or perception is undefiled. It is very much defiled. > If > >sa~n~na, in its recognition function, were undefiled, we'd be "far along" > >already. As to how well sa~n~na fuctions in its marking operation in > worldlings, > >I'm not sure - but I would bet that it is also quite imperfect. > > > > You say that if sa~n~na, in its 'recognition function', were undefiled, > we'd be "far along" already. Are you referring to consciousness with > panna when you talk about being "far along"? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm referring to relatively undefiled recognition as opposed to defiled recognition. For example, a sa~n~na that confuses nama with rupa is defiled. --------------------------------------- > > >Yes, agreed ;-)). But at a moment of satipatthana, the consciousness is > >free of ignorance, and every moment of satipatthana brings us closer to > >freedom from ignorance. > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yeah ... so? How many insightful moments do we have? And why do you think > > >that repeated study of "facts" is enough to cultivate such insight? How > many > >ariyans do you suppose there are in university Buddhist Studies programs? > >(Precious few, I'll bet!!! ;-) > > > > Of course, mere academic study of the teachings will not lead to direct > understanding. But equally, without a correct intellectual > understanding of the teachings, direct understanding cannot be developed. > > To answer your first question, there are relatively few moments of true > insight, and that's why it's going to take a long time to reach > enlightenment. At the time of the Buddha there were many people with > highly developed insight, and they were able to directly relate the > teaching as they heard it to the present moment. > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48739 From: "frank" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:49am Subject: RE: [dsg] Excluded from the cure? Theory first? dhamma_service Hi Phil, You thought I was finished, didn't you. Wrong !!!! :-) :-) (I don't know how to spell demonic laughter). ---------------------------------------- Hi Herman, I believe one way to render it would be: MWOOO-HA-HAHAHAHAHA! There is no pali or Sanskrit equivalent that I'm aware of. I also couldn't help noticing you used (!!!!) FOUR exclamation points. That's a significant # because in Bhikkhu Samahita's daily posts, the maximum # he uses is 3. I've never met him personally, but I imagined that if I did, he would be shouting at me frequently, and words preceding (!!!) would be so loud I'd have to cover me ears. I can't even imagine how loud four (!!!!) would be. The earth would be shaking and devas would be scattering to all corners of the universe in terror at that point. I read B.Samahita's posts daily hoping and waiting for the day where (!!!!) four exclamation points make their first appearance. In fact if it happens and I don't comment on it, someone please alert me so I can bear witness. -fk p.s. I know many of you are thinking this guy has no life, probably meditates too much and needs to get out more. In my defense, I'd like to point out that attention to detail can be the sign of alert mindfulness and sharp discernment. 48740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /faith and resolution. nilovg Hi Tep, op 12-08-2005 14:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Does saddha always arise together with chanda and viriya, ----- N: No. Saddha accompanies each sobhana citta, whereas chanda and viriya can also accompany akusala citta. ------ T: or> does it condition the latter? ------ N: When kusala citta arises it is accompanied by saddhaa, and also by chanda and viriya which are in that case kusala. Then they condition one another, all conascent naama-dhammas condition one another. -------- T: Must saddha be balanced with panna in order to get the job done right? ----- N: Saddha is an indriya, faculty, together with energy, sati, samaadhi and paññaa. The indriyas are among the factors leading to enlightenment and they are developed together. They must be balanced. If there is a great deal of faith but no paññaa, faith is groundless. If there is too much energy and it is not balanced with samaadhi, one will be restless. But as right understanding develops, it is a condition for the indriyas to be balanced. There is no need to think: how shall I balance the indriyas. Nina. 48741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Excluded from the cure? Theory first? nilovg Hi Frank, I am always happy to see you. You are a sharp observer and analyser I have noticed. Nina. op 12-08-2005 18:49 schreef frank op frank@...: > I know many of you are thinking this guy has no life, probably > meditates too much and needs to get out more. In my defense, I'd like to > point out that attention to detail can be the sign of alert mindfulness and > sharp discernment. 48742 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /faith and resolution. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina {and all} - Thank you for this good abhidhamma lesson. N: When kusala citta arises it is accompanied by saddhaa, and also by chanda and viriya which are in that case kusala. Then they condition one another, all conascent naama-dhammas condition one another. Tep: I really like the conascent condition. Your explanation is crystally clear. ---------------------------------- N: But as right understanding develops, it is a condition for the indriyas to be balanced. There is no need to think: how shall I balance the indriyas. Tep: So that's why MN 147 states that when the path factors are fully developed, the five indriyas arise together along with other bodhipakkhiya dhammas.The Breathing Treatise also explains about "combining" indriyas. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 12-08-2005 14:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Does saddha always arise together with chanda and viriya, > ----- > N: No. Saddha accompanies each sobhana citta, whereas chanda and viriya can also accompany akusala citta. > ------ > T: or> does it condition the latter? > ------ > N: When kusala citta arises it is accompanied by saddhaa, and also by chanda and viriya which are in that case kusala. Then they condition one another, all conascent naama-dhammas condition one another. > -------- > > T: Must saddha be balanced with panna in order to get the job done right? > ----- > N: Saddha is an indriya, faculty, together with energy, sati, samaadhi and paññaa. The indriyas are among the factors leading to enlightenment and they are developed together. They must be balanced. If there is a great deal of faith but no paññaa, faith is groundless. If there is too much energy and it is not balanced with samaadhi, one will be restless. > But as right understanding develops, it is a condition for the indriyas to > be balanced. There is no need to think: how shall I balance the indriyas. > Nina. 48743 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: Entering the Stream Supreme ... !!! buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita - There are a few questions hanging over me, after reading your message on "Entering the Noble Stream Leading to Nibbaana". "Knowing & seeing these teachings thus, one is called a Stream- Enterer, saved from lower worlds, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as destination within 7 lives at most." The teachings were : "Bhikkhus, the eyes are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. All form is impermanent, changing, & becoming otherwise. The ear & all sound, the nose & all smell, the tongue & all taste, the body & all touch, the mind & all ideas are impermanent, transient, changing, and becoming otherwise..." Q 1. How do I know when I have attained the "knowing & seeing" of the Teachings above? Is this "knowing & seeing" the same as samma- ditthi? How do you test samma-ditthi? There are people I know who claim that they have eliminated the first three fetters. But I can tell that they have not. So it is not easy to tell ourselves when we really know and see "enough" to be qualified as Stream-winner. Q 2. Is samma-ditthi necessary and sufficient to make one a Sotapanna? With appreciation & respect, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > Entering the Noble Stream Leading to Nibbâna: > > At Savatthi the Buddha said: Bhikkhus, the eyes are impermanent, > changing, becoming otherwise. All form is impermanent, changing, > & becoming otherwise. The ear & all sound, the nose & all smell, > the tongue & all taste, the body & all touch, the mind & all ideas > are impermanent, transient, changing, and becoming otherwise... > One who accepts these teachings by understanding, after having > examined them by careful reflection, is called a Dhamma-follower! > One who decides to place confidence in these teachings, is called > a Faith-follower! Both such persons have entered the fixed track > of correctness, entered a plane of superior being, & transcended > the level of ordinary worldling. Such beings cannot do any action > later resulting in rebirth in hell, or as animal, or as hungry ghost!!! > Such Nobles are incapable of dying without first having enjoyed > the fruit of stream-entry. Knowing & seeing these teachings thus, > one is called a Stream-Enterer, saved from lower worlds, fixed in > destiny, with enlightenment as destination within 7 lives at most...!!! > (snipped) 48744 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:15pm Subject: Re: e-card from Noosa kenhowardau Hi all (Herman, Joop, Sarah and Jon), Herman wrote: ------------------------ > The Sarah and Jon of my imagination, based on only having read their writings, are quite different to the Sarah and Jon that I have met. ------------------------ No, no, I can assure everyone that meeting Sarah and Jon for the first time is remarkably like meeting someone you have known all your life. In fact I did remark on it when it happened three (?) years ago. Meeting them this week for the second time was the same. And it was the same with Robert K. As Nina and Herman were saying, the discussions can be even more helpful than they are on the list (and that's saying something!). I can recommend it to all of you if you get the chance. They are the same in person as they are on the list. That *is* a good thing, isn't it? :-) Joop, thanks for continuing the Metta thread. I will consider what you have written, and get back to you after the weekend. Sarah and Jon, that was a good summary of Thursday's discussion. I, and Andrew no doubt, will fill in some details as you suggested. Before we and our fellow Cooranites let you go, there will be two more gruelling days of questioning (hopefully not too gruelling). Must rush; I have to pick you up in an hour! Ken H 48745 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > Thank you for your further questions. Is it right that you are a > university lecturer? I am sure that you did once tell me, but I just > can't remember at the moment. ______ Dear Herman, yes a teacher. > > > Just as an aside, the notion of a true teaching is absurd to me. A > teaching is a symbolic representation of reality, which is itself not > symbolic. It is just a model, a way of thinking about what is itself > not thought. Fair enough, there are good models and poor models, but a > true model? > > I chipped in on an exchange between Dan and James about the Vism. I > believe that Ven Buddhagosa, at times, made poor models of reality and > of what the Buddha taught. > > It really is not that important to me. But I am curious that it is for > you. What gives? > > == True teaching is the accepted translation of the pali word Saddhamma. Throughout the texts there are reminders that the teaching will gradually decline and eventually be lost, then the path out of samsara is lost until a new Buddha arises. Nothing can compare with this loss.And it is largely because Buddhists neglect to preserve the words of the Budda correctly. Throughout the last 2600 years good monks have striven to keep the teaching for future generations. Without their work it would have been lost already. To read on a Buddhist group members actively devaluing the preservation only confirms that the decline is inevitable, howver I like to warn friends of the dangers, if it can slow the decline even by a few minutes, or wake one up to the perilous postion we are all in then it is valuable. Naturally if the consensus of the list is that saying so is wrong, then I am wasting everyones time. The confounding of Saddhamma (True teaching) Anguttara Nikaya book of fives 155 "Monks these five things lead to the confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma. What five? Herein monks, the monks master not Dhamma:. The sayings, psalms...runes. This monks is the first thing... The teach not others in detail as heard, as learned.... They make not others speak it in detail.... They make no repetition of it in detail... Again monks, the monks do not in their hearts turn over and ponder upon Dhamma, they review it not in their minds. This monks is the fifth thing that leads to the confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma" Robertk > 48746 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Vism.XIV,182 Vism.XIV,183 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 182. (57)-(69) Those associated with the resultant consciousness of the fine-material sphere (57)-(61), the immaterial sphere (62)-(65), and the supramundane (66)-(69) are similar to the formations associated with the profitable consciousnesses of those kinds (9)-(21) too. 183. (70)-(89) 'Functional indeterminate' [formations] are also twofold classed as those without root-cause (70)-(72) and those with root-cause (73)-(80). Those without root-cause are associated with functional consciousness without root-cause; and they are the same as those associated [respectively] with profitable resultant mind-element (39) and the pair of mind-consciousness-elements without root-cause (40)-(41). But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. 48747 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Re: Excluded from the cure? Theory first? egberdina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > You thought I was finished, didn't you. Wrong !!!! :-) :-) (I don't > know how to spell demonic laughter). > > ---------------------------------------- > Hi Herman, I believe one way to render it would be: > MWOOO-HA-HAHAHAHAHA! > There is no pali or Sanskrit equivalent that I'm aware of. > I also couldn't help noticing you used (!!!!) FOUR exclamation points. > That's a significant # because in Bhikkhu Samahita's daily posts, the > maximum # he uses is 3. I've never met him personally, but I imagined that > if I did, he would be shouting at me frequently, and words preceding (!!!) > would be so loud I'd have to cover me ears. I can't even imagine how loud > four (!!!!) would be. The earth would be shaking and devas would be > scattering to all corners of the universe in terror at that point. I read > B.Samahita's posts daily hoping and waiting for the day where (!!!!) four > exclamation points make their first appearance. In fact if it happens and I > don't comment on it, someone please alert me so I can bear witness. > > -fk > > p.s. I know many of you are thinking this guy has no life, probably > meditates too much and needs to get out more. In my defense, I'd like to > point out that attention to detail can be the sign of alert mindfulness and > sharp discernment. == Hi Frank, This is very good, very good. I laughed and laughed. My wife doesn't read many dsg posts. She read this one. Excellent Herman 48748 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:15pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I intended with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism (those pesky Christians call such faux insight into others' motives "bearing false witness" because the judger implicitly (and falsely) claims to know or witness the mind of the judged), but then you chimed in to bring up wholly new issues. C'est la vie -- or at least, so goes the sailing when Herman jumps aboard. On to your comments (and, heaven forbid, not "onto" your comments)... Herman: "History is the history of conflict. What is handed down to us is what, over time, has survived or has adapted to survive ongoing conflict. The things that are now, are the things that have worked best in their situations. This process of adaption goes on and on and on. It is just conditionality. In amongst this is the idea that a perfect, pristine, unaltered Buddha-Dhamma has been transmitted to us. The view that the right monks, at the right time, assimilated the right understanding and rightly transmitted it to the next generation, thereby each time thwarting the wrong views that abound, is a romantic one IMHO." I think you are right, Herman, that the texts that we now read are corrupted. How so? I don't rightly know. Nor do I know the degree to which they are, but I suspect it is minor. The exposition in the commentaries, though, often does seem weak and could be a worse source of corruption than imperfect transmission of the other texts. For example, in Dhammasangami, the list of cetasikas is open-ended, but the Sangaha closes the door at 52, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Or, in the Sammohavinodani, intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant objects are defined in terms what the common, average man would say are pleasant or unpleasant -- a very unsatisfactory explanation. Or, the Attasalini's bizarre distinction between the 8- fold Noble path and the 5-fold quasi-noble path seems a bit dubious and doesn't seem very well supported by the suttas. When the commentaries get a bit windy and seem to go far beyond the primary texts, I just move on and think about something else. On the other hand, the commentaries are wonderful for constantly reminding us to understand the stories in the suttas in terms of cittas and cetasikas with tilakkana and to interpret Dhamma in terms of dhammas. Herman: "To maintain this view we ourselves have to reject here and now all the views that abound, bar one, and come out as either Theravadin, Mahayanist, Vajrayanist, Zoroastrian, Rosacrucian, Buddhagosist, Christian and so on." I'm not convinced. I do like your term "proto-teaching", though, which you used in a different post. Buddhist proto-teaching would have to include: i. the ubiquity of dukkha as a consequence of craving; and ii. overcoming dukkha requires abandoning the notion that a Self can direct the eradication of dukkha. Christian proto-teaching has similar tenets, viz: i. the ubiquity of sin as a consequence of craving self- gratification above God; and ii. overcoming sin requires abandoning the notion that the Self has any power whatsoever to weaken the power of sin. Herman: "The Buddha taught anicca. IMHO anicca applies to any symbolic representation of what he wrote that they wrote that them wrote that she said that he said as well." Certainly the symbolic representations will pass away. Somehow, though, I don't think that type of understanding of anicca leads to enlightenment! Herman: "Though there are many different surviving Tipitakas with commentaries and subcommentaries, albeit with different names, the Buddha that spawned them paranibbana'd a long time ago." There are indeed different Tipitakas, which is interesting. Two of the Mahayana schools' baskets of primary texts (suttas and vinaya) are similar to Theravada's, but the Mahayana Abhidhammas and commentaries are quite different (or at least, so I hear). Herman: "There is something very paradoxical about struggling to keep alive a teaching that leads to extinction, isn't there?" Paradoxical? Ironic, perhaps... Metta, Dan 48749 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:15pm Subject: Re: Excluded from the cure? Theory first? philofillet Hi Herman Thanks for the two posts. >Good to hear from you again. I started to reply, and then I realised >it was going to be a long, long post. So I started again, and will >just be responding to specific points here and there, in seperate >posts. That sounds good. I'll probably be checking in once a week or so, so we can have a nice easy going discussion over the months to come. Thanks in advance for waiting awhile for my responses. >People from all over the world, from any culture, can come to >realise >life isn't all that it is cracked up to be. I think that anyone who >has an inkling of the truth of the First Noble Truth is indeed >fortunate in having access to the Teachings. But I do not think that >it is possible to meaningfully teach, or acquire by faith, the First Noble Truth. The reality of suffering must dawn on people, and then >it >becomes it's own prompting to find a way out. Yes, but it's my view - not shared by all my DSG friends - that we in the west (wherever we're living) are conditioned to seek to achieve great things in our lives, to be accomplished in some way, to be able to go to our deathbed and look back on what we did with a sense of accomplishment. This extends to Dhamma. We are scared to live and die without doing something of import. We are overly attached to this one lifetime. This interferes with understandinig Dhamma because there is bound to be so much lobha, so much akusala chanda, desire for results, greed for results. In my opinion. When speaking with Rob Mould, I came to think that this might just be my way of seeing things, that the greed for Dhamma results is not the universal in the west that I think it to be. As for understanding the first noble truth, sure, of course - it's what drives people around the world through the ages to turn to God or alcohol or whatever to escape from suffering. Not surprisingly, the Buddha teaches this first truth in a much deeper and subtler way. For example - and this will help me to help you understand that the Buddha's teaching *is* about understanding reality at the elemental level - look at the saccasamyutta, book 56 of the Samyutta nikaya. In sutta 11, which is the Buddha's first discourse "setting in Motion the Wheel of the Dhamma" the first noble truth is taught in the conventional terms that we are all so familiar with by now, birth, illness, death, union with what is displeasing, separation from what is pleasing etc. To this point, the Buddha's teaching is not that much different from other religions. People of any faith could and would appreciate it. But then look at the suttas which follow, 13 and 14. In 13 the Buddha defines suffering in terms of the khandas ("And what bhikkhus is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: The five aggregates subject to clinging...") and in 114 it is in terms of the internsal sense bases ("And what bjikhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the six internal sense bases. What six? The eye base etc...) When we get to this depth of Dhamma, we are leaving behind the conventional terms of loved ones and illness and so on and getting down to the bare, elemental realities (actually, I prefer to use paramattha dhammas.) It is by understanding these and *only* by understanding these that we can understand the Buddha's teaching in its depths. Is it necessary to understand the Buddha's teaching in its depths in order to benefit from it? No, no to benefit from it in a superficial way, to find comfort and peace of mind (and perhaps these things are helfpul conditions for deeper insight) but to fulfill the purpose for which the Buddha taught, to eradicate defilements and achieve liberation, yes, they must be understood. I think they have to be understood intellectually first, and can only be understood intellecutally at our level of insight. But it is a beginning. I will not directly experience the characteristics of the internal sense bases - it is all too fast - but my sense of understanding that all is anatta is helped by my intellectual understanding of the way the Buddha taught about paramattha dhammas. (Whether that term is used in the suttanta or not is not of import. If you read the samyutta nikaya and come away believing that the Buddha did not teach in terms of elemental realities, the Buddha himself could sit on your knee and whisper suttas in your ear and you still wouldn't understand. (I use "you" as the impersonal pronoun.) > > What are the conditions for self-view? Wouldn't it make an awful lot > of sense if the Buddha sought to assist those followers for whom the > penny didn't drop by uprooting their conditioned views through the > removal of those very conditions? Sorry Herman, I don't really understand this. Do you mean that even if there is not right understanding we can weaken unwholesome conditions by following prescribed Dhamma actitivities. If that's what you mean, I think I may agree with you when it comes to very gross defilements. For example, in one of the recorded talks Jon and Acharn Sujin are talking about avoiding transgression and if I understood correctly Acharn Sujin said there is no point in avoiding a moment of transgression, of akusala khamma pattha, if there is not right understanding. I disagree with this, if this is indeed what she is saying. I think that we (I at least) have many moments in life in which we are aware of the option between thiinking unwholesome thoughts and not thinking them, between saying something nasty and not saying it, between taking what is not ours and not taking it, between killing and not killing, between seeking a partner for sexual infidelity and not doing so. At those forks in the road, even if there is self-image or lobha or whatever involved, not transgressing is better than transgressing. Is that what you mean by "removal of conditions?" They can'T be removed, because they have been laid down for countless lives (this is what the Buddha teaches, and to understand Dhamma, we have to work from this assumption - otherwise it's not Dhamma) but we can take a first step towards weaking the conditions, I guess. > > What did he tell his followers in relation to anatta: > from the Mahasunnata Sutta > > > `Ánanda, the Bhikkhu does not shine, attached to, fond of, yoked to > and delighting in company and society. It is not possible that a > Bhikkhu attached to, fond of, yoked to and delighting in company and > society, should be a quick and easy gainer for nothing of pleasures of > non-sensuality, seclusion, appeasement and enlightenment. I read the sutta you quoted, but the connection to anatta didn't jump out at me. For what the Buddha taught about anatta I prefer the sutta known as "the Characteristic of Nonself", (SN 22:59) and I read it often. It is so important. "Bhikkhus, form (etc) is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, form were self, this formwould not lead to afflection, and it would be possible to have it of form: 'Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus.' But because form is nonself, form leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of form: 'Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus." (Repeated for all the khandas.) This is the sutta that makes me wonder how on earth people think they can generate metta in an intentional way, BTW. Oh, OK, here's what you are saying about the connection to anatta here. > > Self-view is conditioned by society. It is others that make us known > as ourselves. The antidote - seclusion. No other - no self. Of course we acan still be chock full of the desire for self- fulfillment even if we are physically secluded. That doesn't change anything, though I agree that when we are in intercourse with others the burning of moha and lobha is less restrained by mindfulness, usually, for most people. But you are talking about a deeper kind of seclusion, I'm sure, one that we can have whether we are with other people or not. Solitude in the midst of the maddening crowd. Dhamma brings us this. > Acquiring a theoretical understanding of anatta, with a view to > realising it, is counterproductive. Anatta implies that there is not a > separate being who can realise or understand anything. The actions of > acquiring a theoretical understanding work to strengthen the very idea > that the theoretical understanding is intended to undermine. That > there is someone separate doing something. Yes, well said. We ahve to remember that, as Jon puts it very well in one of the recorded talks, anatta is not some thing that we seek to grasp and understand and possess the understanding of. It is by understanding paramattha dhammas to the degree that we are capable of that we understand anatta to the degree that we are capable of. Thus the emphasis at DSG on being aware of lobha in our Dhamma pursuits. Anatta is not an end in itself, nor a means. It is one of the characteristics of dhammas that may eventually be revealed, that's all. On the other hand, we do come to appreciate that there is no self that can control the arising of kusala - that's seen in the anatta sutta I quoted above. There is no way to do it intentionally. I've rambled again. Probably quite a lot of garbage in there, and typos, but must move on. There are a few posts to get back to. Catch you again next week. I enjoy discussing these things with you. Again, as always, I encourage you to read Samyutta Nikaya, especially books 22 and 35. For example, a few weeks back I think I read your wrote "seeing and visible form are not separate." If I did indeed read that it is just plain wrong and Samyutta Nikaya will help make that clear for you. It is an essential point. The eye is burning, visible forms are burning, seeing consciousness is burning...(from another one of my favourite sutta, "Burning" SN 35:28) Metta, Phil 48750 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) philofillet Hi Jon > A trip to Bangkok is well worth considering, if it can be arranged. I'm > sure you would benefit a lot from it. Do keep it in mind. Thanks, and thanks also Sarah for an invite in another post. I will make it there someday. I wish I had kept my Thai - I could have a basic conversation when I was there 10 years ago but not it's all gone except "aroy mahk." > > > Ph: As you know, in one of the recorded talks there is a fellow > > (don'T know who he is, but I like his good humour) who when A. Sujin > > says "it is difficult to believe that everything is paramattha > > dhammas" says "I don't think it's difficult to believe but it seems > > impossible to experience." Then A. Sujin says, and I paraphrase, > > that is good, that the believing shows that a condition is there for > > the development of panna. > > But still, 'believeing' here must be a reference to 'saddha' or confidence > based on understanding. Unless the belief has a sound basis, it could not > be kusala (because it could not be an accurate belief). Ph: Yes, right you are. Rob K also pointed this out in another post. When I write "we *must* believe" there can be saddha at that moment, I guess. Because when I read the words quoted back to me later they sound dumb. There is the saddha or there isn't - and we know that kusala cittas can't be dictated to others. > (That recording was from India 2001. I think the speaker might have been > Tom Westheimer. Tom and Bev will also be on the India trip later this > year.) I must admit that since I am enjoying listening to the talks so much I am eager to get the next ones. Lobha Dobha doo. I wonder if you're going to record any talks when you're in Bangkok next week. I hope so. >> All these addictions. I suspect you wouldn't know > > what it's like to have addictions, Jon. We all have different > > accumulated tendencies. It's interesting. > > I have only six addictions, Phil: to the objects appearing through the > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. > > ;-)) Ph: A big grin and wink there, but so true. No amount of virtuous living erases that. Thanks for the reminder. I like this sutta that I came across this morning: "He who has not abandoned greed, hatred and delusion is called Mara's prisoner, captured in Mara's snares, subject to the evil one's will and pleasure." (Itivuttaka 68) And of course, this means each and every one of us, because only the non-returner (?) has abandoned greed and hatred, or is it the arahant. No need to answer that one. I also like the sutta that has "when there is the eye, there is Mara." Metta, Phil 48751 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) philofillet Hi James and all How's it going, James. I enjoyed your post to your mailing list (off-list) about the state of America, the spiritual void. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you. I read the following a few days and have been carrying it around with me. Very interesting, and another reminder how much we have in common. Let's see how long I ramble on this one. > James: What exactly is wrong with wanting to have more metta and > wanting to be a better person? Aren't those wholesome desires? Ph: The purpose of the Buddha's teaching isn't to be a better person, I think. It's to disappear as a person. But if we become better people on the way, that's a good side-effect, and I think it's very likely to happen. But it's not the purpose of the Buddha's teaching. If we make it our goal, how on earth can there be liberation from self? Because good, kind, loving, virtuous people have fewer conditions for akusala and better conditions for insight? I suppose that might be true, but I think understanding what we are, whether it's good and loving or greedy and nasty is better in the long run. There's a very good sutta in which the Buddha is asked what the purpose of the holy life is and he says it is *not* for accumulating the wholesome, it is for eradicating the unwholesome, but now I can't find it. If anyone knows the sutta I'm referring to, perhaps you could post it. (It's in Smayutta Nikaya.) I think that in the practice of brahma-viharas as it is taught now there is too much of an emphasis on accumulating virtue, accumulating the wholesome. This is perhaps why these days I find myself thinking more about the kusala roots of alobha and adosa and less about metta and karuna and mudita. Alobha and adosa feel like letting go, finding detachment in the moment, and I think that's what Dhamma is all about. For example, yesterday I was walking in the park and I saw afilm crew filming a sexy young woman. Now, I know from past experience that this is what happens in Japanese porn (someone told me about this, you see, a friend, this guy I know ;) ) They take the girl out to a nature place and kind of chat with her, show her giggling and flouncing her skirts before they go wherever they go. So here I was with my unwholesome tendencies seeing this and a) there was the desire to go over and get a good look at her and b) there was disgust and aversion in response to this, condemenation, judgement. What I would have done next is drege up "karuna" and have compassionate thoughts about everyone involved, including myself. Instead, yesterday, I just dropped it, let it go, and thought a bit about the way adosa or alobha are described, as a drop of water rolling off a leaf. Still thinking, but less of a story. Just dropped it and moved on. (But obviously didn't drop it completely, becaue here I am thinking about porn again.) And other things yesterday, people who got in my way, the eprson who stole my bicycle. Just dropped it instead of extending the story. I think this whole thing about designating difficult people, neutral people etc for metta is contrary tot he Buddha's teaching. Why extend and complicate stories instead of dropping them to the degree that we can? 12 > As for myself, I usually do metta meditation while riding the exercise > bike. I know, kinda weird, but I guess I find that the endorphins > produced by the exercise bike put me in the proper mood for radiating > metta. Ph: Wow, James, I did the exact same thing! When we moved, we threw out the exercuse bike, but I used to ride it and radiate metta. Reflect on the noble truths, and radiate metta. I agree about endorphins, they do something to clarify the mind, at times. But as you know, I'm sure, the endorphins can lead us in less wholesome directions too. At least for me. I think there is a lot of sensual pleasure involved in the exercise process so while I still listen to Dhamma talks while jogging, and still have moments of helpful clarity, I am aware that there is a lot going on that is not so wholesome. > I follow the technique as laid out in the Vism. I read what you wrote about taking things from Vism when you agree with them while condemning it on the whole. The good thing is you are always honest about this sort of thing. Hopefully you know that selective reading of suttaas and commentaries is Mara's way of getting you further wrapped up in yourself. I think what we don't agree with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting. How can you claim to have better understanding that Buddhaghosa? That's so silly. Not that I have read Vism, except the brahma- viharas section. > Here's another instance where I didn't intend to generate metta: One > day I was in a very depressed and upset mood. I had had a significant > disagreement with a teacher associate who had offered to allow me to > store stuff in her apartment (soon to be my apartment) over the > summer, but then she reneged the offer. It's a long story, but I had > to store my stuff somewhere else at the last minute. Anyway, I was > very upset with her; and I was having a hard time at my school because > of its disorganization; it was hot and uncomfortable; and I was riding > in a disgusting, old taxi through the dirty streets of Cairo and the > pollution was choking me. Really, I felt just terrible, in everyway > imaginable! As I stepped out of the taxi, and reached for my wallet, > suddenly the pressure of all these terrible things snapped, or > something, and all of my negative feelings went away. For a fleeting > moment, I felt extreme metta for that teacher who had betrayed me, for > the school and its students, for the taxi driver, and for everyone > else who was struggling in the heat of Cairo. I felt this metta > spontaneously, I assume, because my ego couldn't handle the pressure > anymore and it self destructed- temporarily. The feeling of metta > didn't last and it was quickly replaced with negative feelings again. > But, I wasn't as angry or upset as before. I had seen the light so > to speak. Afterwards, I stopped thinking about the teacher who had > betrayed me, stopped feeling like a victim, and felt some compassion > for her. Is this clinging to metta? Or is this instance of metta > better because it was spontaneous? Yes, much better I think. I can really relate to the above. There are so many times I'm irritated by students and am having a bad lesson, and suddenly there is the release you describe above. It could be something else - for exmaple, wanting to protect my image as a kind and friendly teacher - but it does feel quite real. I'm on vacation now, and dreading going back to teaching 6 dyas a week, 6 hours a day. It's really hard. I find myself dreading seeing all my regular students, who sign up for my lessons because they like them, and me. (That's how our school works.) In the past, I might designate them as difficult people and do metta for them. And that would make it easier to go back to work, definitely. As I've said before recently, I think doing metta meditation even without right understanding can help us have emotional stability, and that emotional stability *might* be a helpful condition for deeper insight. But now I feel that I won't be doing that again. A moment of understanding khandas, dhatus, ayatanas at my shallow intellectual level is so much more helfpul. Alobha and adosa instead of metta and karuna. Letting go instead of accumulating. > As for myself, I don't see a big difference and I think that metta > needs to be generated through metta meditation. I know there is the metta sutta, in which this is taught, but could you (or anyone) explain how this could be reconciled with the anatta sutta, which clearly states that we can't have mental formations the way we would like them to be. Since the anatta sutta is viewed as one of the "cardinal" suttas (by Nanamoli Thera, at least) I will pay more attention to it. But you see, there's the kind of selective reading I was criticizing above. I'll be away next week so won't be able to reply any day soon. Wishing you a safe and pleasant journey back to Cairo - or perhaps you're already there. I won't send you any metta because I think your understanding or lack of understanding of Dhamma is of infinitely greater assistance, in any situation. Metta, Phil p.s the sign off is still metta for lack of a better word. I like Herman's "kind regards" and may go with that unless he has a copyright on it. 48752 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 479 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) These are nine different stocks of akusala dhamma. The first four stocks have been discussed in the previous posts. 5. upadaana dhamma ( clinging, grasping, gripping, fuel ) There are 4 different upadaana dhamma. They are 1. kaamupadaana or 'clinging to sense desire' 2. ditthupadaana or 'clinging to speculation' 3. silabbatupadaana or 'clinging to beliefs in rites' 4. attavadupadaana or 'clinging to belief in soul theory' After explanation on kaamupadaana or 'clinging to sense-desire' the next upadaana dhamma 'ditthupadaana' or 'clinging to speculation' will be discussed here in this post. This upadaana or fuel is almost universal like kaamupadaana. Like kaamupadaana this upadaana also generates arising of new and new existences. Because it is a fuel that adds to burning pancupadaanakkhandhas or 5 clinging aggregates. Ditthi means 'wrong-view'. It is a mental factor or a cetasika. It arises with 4 consciousness of attachment. There are 4 akusala cittas that are accompanied by ditthi or wrong-view. All these 4 ditthi- cittas are lobha-muula-cittas or attachment-rooted-consciousness. Ditthi or the cetasika-wrong-view cannot arise in its own. It always arise with lobha cetasika, which is the main cause of suffering. So these 4 ditthi-cittas can be said to have tanha or craving. But unlike simple craving or tanha this tanha in these 4 ditthi-cittas are so strong that they are called upadaana or clinging. This clinging or upadaana is called ditthupadaana because there is ditthi cetasika associated with these 4 cittas. In Dependent Origination or paticca-samuppaada tanha causes arising of upadaana. Here it is ditthupadaana. This ditthupadaana creates bhavo or existence. So to cut of 'the samsara of brith-death-birth-death' bhava should not arise. Already arisen bhavo cannot be undone. But further arising of bhavo or existence can be stopped by special wisdom. How to stop? By destruction of upadaana. Here if ditthupadaana is destroyed there will not be any woeful rebirth as bhava or existences. To understand ditthi there needs further clarification on ditthi or wrong-view. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48753 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 480 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, These 9 stocks of akusala are repeated very frequently so that they are familiar to hear and when they are well understood then these akusala may well be avoided by means of wisdom. 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 5. upadaana dhamma ( clinging, grasping, gripping, fuel ) There are 4 different upadaana dhamma. They are 1. kaamupadaana or 'clinging to sense desire' 2. ditthupadaana or 'clinging to speculation' 3. silabbatupadaana or 'clinging to beliefs in rites' 4. attavadupadaana or 'clinging to belief in soul theory' The first upadaana or grasping-dhamma is lobha cetasika. All other 3 upadaana or grasping-dhamma are ditthi cetasika. Ditthi or wrong-view tortures beings in many different way without knowledge of beings concerned. The first ditthi in three upadaanas is ditthupadaana or grasping-on- wrong-view. This sounds like general description. Because all wrong- views do have ditthi as a cetasika. But when there is not more specifically defined wrong-view than the wrong-view in question is known as general wrong-view or just as ditthi. So when there are other wrong-views there also is ditthupadaana in those wrong-views. So ditthupadaana is present almost in all beings. All puthujana or all non-ariyas do have wrong-view. This means that they all have potential of arising of wrong-view and they are still not free from the danger of ditthupadaana unlike ariyas who have eradicated ditthi. Example wrong-view that exists in almost all people in this world is 'the belief of existence of self' 'the belief of existence of specific things apart from paramattha dhamma'. The belief of existence of self is a wrong-view. Here it is described as a general wrong-view. There is much more specific wrong-view on 'self' and this will be discussed in coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48754 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 481 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 9 stocks of akusala dhamma, the first four stocks have been discussed. They are aasava or cankers, ogha or floods, yoga or yokes, gantha or bonds. The current topic of akusala stock is upadaana stock or 'the stock of clinging or grasping. There are 4 clingings. They are 1. kaamupadaana or sensuous clinging 2. ditthupadaana or speculative clinging 3. siilabbatupadaana or ritualistic clinging 4. attavaadupadaana or self clinging The first two clinging have been discussed. The third clinging is like the second one ditthi cetasika. But here in this upadaana dhamma it behaves differently from ditthupadaana in some way. Even though it is a wrong-view this wrong-view is based on specific point of belief. This belief is based on silabbata-paraamaasa or belief that purification can be gained other than mahasatipatthaana. So if the practice is not mahaasatipatthaana then it may be silabbata- paraamaasa. Sila means 'stone' and silabbata or silavata means 'ceremonial observance'. Paraamasati means 'to touch' 'to deal with' 'to hold on' 'to be attached to'. Paraamaasa means 'touching' 'seizing' 'taking hold of'. So siilabbata-paraamaasa means 'seizing ceremonial observance' or 'holding ceremonial observance' 'handling ceremonial observance'. This means that 'ceremonial observances like killing animals and offer them to divine beings or observing the practice that are those of dogs, cows, etc or observing non-sense rituals like standing on one foot for days, not eating food for days as a practice to purify mind. Still there are many observances that are non-sense when these are connected with wrong view. Clasping hands and worshiping to the sky, to the earth, to the sun, to 6 directions or 10 directions, to trees, to rivers, to mountains, to tombs, and many others. If there is wrong view in mind while observing such things like worshiping corpse, remnants or corpse, heap of earthy ground, tomb are all 'siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' or 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knot'. This may also include when one is observing non-sense ritualistic behavioural activities like maintaining of strange postures as a practice in order to purify mind or in order to be liberated. There have been many many practices since human beings are on this earth. Some went through trials and errors and finally they set up a defined practice what they thought was a good thing to do as a spiritual cleansing and then they founded up their individual schools, teaching those things that they believed were all true. From their schools they propagate all their teachings to many different beings wherever they meet in whatever situations. The chief dhamma here is 'ditthi' or 'wrong-view'. As long as 'ditthi' is there and that ditthi is associated with lobha producing ditthi-gata-sampayutta-lobha-muula-cittas or greedy consciousness accompanied by wrong view there cannot be any panna or wisdom. Sometimes this ditthi is very subtle that it may not be detectable by the immatured. Examples are sitting in a quiet place, sitting on folded crossed legs, sitting on erect body, straightening the back, sitting under a tree, or any specific postures. When these are imitated by someone without knowledge of what is right and what is wrong and without knowledge of what is ditthi or wrong view they may well believe that they are following the right practice and they feel ease. But as long as there is ditthi, panna or wisdom cannot arise. Ditthi or wrong view may come to beings in many different forms. One of these forms is 'silabbatupadaa' or 'ritualistic clinging'. As it is an upadaana dhamma this ritualistic observatory clinging is grasping by beings and because of this firm-grasping or clinging new and new existences are generated. Once beings are able to destroy this clinging there will not be existence arise from this wrong-view and wrong practice. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any further explanation or support will be valuable. 48755 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. egberdina Hi Htoo, I was interested to read your comments. > Like 1st to 3rd and then to 5th and so on. There are kasina jumping. > Like earth to fire, fire to water, water to wind, wind to earth and > so > on. > > These are just the matter of Mastery in jhaana. > > Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. I say this > because > once a person siad 'The Buddha can control ruupa'. :-)) > How would you interpret the following sutta? Anguttara Nikaya VI.41 Daruka-khandha Sutta The Wood Pile Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak Mountain. Then early in the morning, Ven. Sariputta put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, was coming down from Vulture's Peak Mountain with a large group of monks when he saw a large wood pile off to one side. Seeing it, he said to the monks, "Friends, do you see that large wood pile over there?" "Yes, friend," the monks replied. "Friends, if he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained mastery of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but earth. Why is that? There is earth-property (or: earth-potential) in that wood pile, in dependence on which he could will that wood pile to be nothing but earth. "If he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained mastery of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but water... fire... wind... beautiful... unattractive. Why is that? There is the property of the unattractive in that wood pile, in dependence on which he could will that wood pile to be nothing but unattractive." Kind Regards Herman 48756 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:37am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: ... > On to your comments (and, heaven forbid, not "onto" your comments)... > Herman: "History is the history of conflict. What is handed down to > us is what, over time, has survived or has adapted to survive ongoing > conflict. The things that are now, are the things that have worked > best in their situations. This process of adaption goes on and on and > on. It is just conditionality. In amongst this is the idea that a > perfect, pristine, unaltered Buddha-Dhamma has been transmitted to > us. The view that the right monks, at the right time, assimilated the > right understanding and rightly transmitted it to the next > generation, thereby each time thwarting the wrong views that abound, > is a romantic one IMHO." > ... Hallo Dan, Herman, James, and all Because I started a discussion by asking James if for him Vism. has the same level of authority as the Tipitaka (his answer: no, but parts are very valuable) I feel responsible for this little Buddhaghosa-discussion I think Buddhaghosa did a great job to make a WHOLE of different (singalese) Theravada-texts. But at the same moment this was a great contribution to make a SCHOLASTIC SYSTEM of it. That makes it difficult to find 'spiritual dynamics' in his work and that makes me ambivalent in my opinion. But what was more inportant (I think) in what I said to James was: all commentaries, old and modern, are interpretations of the Teaching of the Buddha. To go further: even translations (for example from Pali to English or to Dutch) are inevitably interpretations. Of course some interpretations are more reliable than others; and some are very unreliable because they serve non-buddhistic goals. But we had to make again and again interpretations; today we had to make an interpretation that makes it possible to combine the Teachings with modernity; Nyanaponika Thera did it 50 years ago (and KenH, what he did to bring Theravada to the West was very important); Bhikkhu Bodhi does it now but he is too orthodox, I think; this job had to be done by a layperson, not by a monk, today. But who? Dan: "I think you are right, Herman, that the texts that we now read are corrupted. How so? I don't rightly know. Nor do I know the degree to which they are, but I suspect it is minor." Joop: I think it's better not to use the term 'corrupted'; not only because I has the connotation if evil intention, but also because (little) changes in meaning are inevitable when the Teachings of the Buddha is playing a dynamic role is an other culture, in a new culture, in the socalled 'global society' of the future for example. Dan: "There are indeed different Tipitakas, which is interesting. Two of the Mahayana schools' baskets of primary texts (suttas and vinaya) are similar to Theravada's, but the Mahayana Abhidhammas and commentaries are quite different (or at least, so I hear)." Joop: I once read 'Philosophy and psychology in the Abhidharma (Lucknow, India, 1957) of Herbert V. Guenther. He compared the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma of the old schools: - Theravada: de Atthasalini door Buddhaghosa - Sarvastivada-Vaibhasika: de Abhidharmakosa door Vasabandhu - Vijnanavadins-Yogacara: de Abhidharmasamuccaya door Asanga What I remember of Guenther the differences are rather big. That is an important proof for the theory that: - the Sutta Pitaka is the oldest set of texts; existed already before Buddhism spread to for example China: there are only small differences between the (Pali) Sutta Pitaka and the (Chinese) Agamas, as I have heard. - the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma arised in the centuries after that spreading of Buddhism, that's the reason that there are 'local' versions. Metta Joop 48757 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:24am Subject: eCard from Noosa -- visit to Cooran jonoabb Hi All Today we visited the country property of Andrew T to join him and some of the regular Cooran members (KenH, Christine, Steve and Reg) in discussion. Andrew’s property is situated in beautiful countryside, and we sat on the edge of a lovely patch of forest with the call of birds as background music. Although yesterday was the coldest day on record for much of Queensland, we were fortunate to have mostly sunny weather. Our discussion covered many topcs, including: The conceptual dilemma of ‘no-self’ vs. result of kamma (if there is no self, why bother about result of akusala kamma?), and the possibility of compassion towards one’s ‘future self’ as a response to this Impermanence as something thought about/reflected on vs. as a characteristic of dhammas Samatha and jhana, are they the same ‘Don’t worry, be happy’ (and was it Bob Marley? The meaning of ‘lokuttara’, and nibbana as object of consciousness Breaking precepts vs. akusala kamma patha The fifth precept against the taking of alcohol Sariputta’s advice to the executioner Descriptive vs. prescriptive language AN IV, 94 (‘Tranquillity and Insight’), and the meaning of ‘should’ Dhammas and their ‘characteristics’ The experiencing of an immediately past nama Conventional understanding vs. direct knowing There was plenty to reflect on further. A very pleasant and useful day. Jon 48758 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,182 Vism.XIV,183 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Could you please comment on the kind of "concentration" here (jhana or not)? Thanks. >But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements > (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of > energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 182. (57)-(69) Those associated with the resultant consciousness of the > fine-material sphere (57)-(61), the immaterial sphere (62)-(65), and the > supramundane (66)-(69) are similar to the formations associated with the > profitable consciousnesses of those kinds (9)-(21) too. > > 183. (70)-(89) 'Functional indeterminate' [formations] are also twofold > classed as those without root-cause (70)-(72) and those with root- cause > (73)-(80). Those without root-cause are associated with functional > consciousness without root-cause; and they are the same as those > associated [respectively] with profitable resultant mind-element (39) > and the pair of mind-consciousness-elements without root-cause > (40)-(41). But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements > (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of > energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. 48759 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:11am Subject: The nature of Abhidhamma (was: Re: e-card from Noosa jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi all (Herman, Joop, Sarah and Jon), ... > Joop, thanks for continuing the Metta thread. I will consider what > you have written, and get back to you after the weekend. >... > > Hallo Ken Perhaps when (and if) you react on my (and others) metta-messages, you can also say something about what in your opinion is 'The nature of Abhidhamma'. Kind of definition: for me Abhidhamma = texts about paramattha dhammas; primary text the Dhammasangani, secondary the Sangaha, books of Nina etc. I'm asking you this question because in your messages (for example when you made an addition to Nyanaponika Thera's metta-comtemplation and in #48582) to you the 'paramattha dhammas' not only represent ultimate reality but are also in themselves kind of sacred. 'Sacred' because of the way you write about them. To me nothing is sacred, Theravada and sacred things can not be combined. I will try to explain was are 'paramattha dhammas' to me. When I started studying astrophysics after my early retirement that popular texts about astronomy, quantummechanics etc are written in a natural language as english, dutch etc. The higher the academic level of the texts, the more mathematical formula were used. And the top (Noble-prize winners) is nearly pure mathematics. And these authors are doing this because only is mathematical language is really and exactly written down how nature (in their theories) works; a natural not only gives misunderstandings, it also lacks the 'inherent logic' that mathematical steps have in them. This is a metaphore; to me the Abhidhamma is the mathematics of the Dhamma, of the Teachings of the Buddha. It is a superior language, already 2200 years hardly needed any additions. It is a ultimate set of symbols like mathematics is ultimate, but it is NOT devine. I'm curious what you (and others) think about this. Metta Joop Ken H 48760 From: nina Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:43am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 182. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 182 **** Intro: in this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the cetasikas accompanying vipaakacittas that are the results of the kusala ruupa-jhaanacittas and aruupa-jhaanacittas and lokuttara cittas. As we have seen, there are four planes (bhuumi) of citta: cittas of the sense-sphere (kaamaavaraa cittas), of the fine-material sphere (ruupa-jhaana), of the immaterial sphere (aruupa-jhaana) and supramundane or lokuttara cittas. The kusala jhaana-cittas and their results and the kusala lokuttara cittas, the magga-cittas, and their results are always accompanied by paññaa. All the sobhana cetasikas that accompany them are of a high degree. ****** Text Vis.182.:(57)-(69) Those associated with the resultant consciousness of the fine-material sphere (57)-(61), the immaterial sphere (62)-(65), and the supramundane (66)-(69) are similar to the formations associated with the profitable consciousnesses of those kinds (9)-(21) too. ------- N: As regards the results of the kusala ruupa-jhaanacittas and aruupa-jhaanacittas: they are accompanied by the same jhaana-factors as the kusala jhaanacittas that produce them. As we read about the kusala ruupaavacara cittas, in Vis. Ch XIV, 86.< The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhaana-factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness(piiti or rapture), bliss (sukha, happy feeling), and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness (piiti) fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. > ========= We read about the results of ruupa-jhaanacittas (Vis. Ch XIV, 103): N: The kusala jhaanacittas do not produce results in the same life span. Their results are accompanied by paññaa, confidence, sati, alobha, adosa and all the other sobhana cetasikas that also accompany the kusala jhaanacittas that produce these vipaakacittas. Samaadhi, concentration, has become very strong because of the development of samatha. It experiences the meditation subject with absorption. With regard to the immaterial kusala jhaanacittas: there are four stages of aruupajhaana and all four aruupa-jhaanacittas are accompanied by the same two jhaana-factors as the fifth ruupa-jhaanacitta, by equanimity and concentration. They produce vipaakacittas that are accompanied by the same jhaana-factors and the same sobhana cetasikas that accompany the kusala aruupaavacaara cittas. They occur as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. As regards lokuttara cittas, they arise when enlightenment is attained. As we have seen in Vis. XIV, 88, there are four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, of the once-returner, of the non-returner and of the arahat. At each of these stages defilements are successively eradicated. The supramundane vipaakacittas, the phala-cittas (fruition-consciousness), are the results of the magga-cittas (path-consciousness). ========= Text Vis XIV, 105: The 'supramundane resultant' is of four kinds (66)-(69) because it is [respectively] the fruitions of the consciousnesses associated with the four paths (18)-(21) When the lokuttara magga-citta has fallen away it is succeeded immediately by its result, the phala-citta. The phalacittas are accompanied by the same cetasikas as the magga-cittas. Both magga-cittas and phala-cittas experience nibbaana. They are accompanied by paññaa and the other sobhana cetasikas that have reached a very high degree. Even for those who have not developed jhaana, samaadhi has the strength of concentration of jhaanacitta of the first stage. Lokuttara citta is accompanied by the thirtyseven bodhipakkhiya dhammas, the factors pertaining to enlightenment. These include the indriyas that have been developed: saddhaa (confidence), viriya, sati, samaadhi, paññaa. The indriyas that are developed have become powers (balas), they are unshakable by their opposites. Sati becomes unshakable by forgetfulness. Confidence becomes unshakable by lack of faith. Energy becomes unshakable by laziness or discouragement, lack of perseverance. All these factors of enlightenment accompany also the phalacittas. This reminds us that lokuttara cittas cannot arise without the proper conditions. The factors of enlightenment develop together with satipatthana and it takes many lives until they reach full accomplishment. ****** 48761 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:40am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Dear Joop, I agree that Buddhaghosa made a great contribution by developing a magnificent, rational, scholastic system out of seemingly disparate, difficult, subtle teachings. That being said, I'm not convinced that a rational, scholastic study of the teachings is at all helpful for developing insight or understanding -- or, as you put it so succinctly, "it is difficult to find 'spiritual dynamics' in his work." The commentaries are very helpful for: i. illustrating an approach to interpreting and understanding the primary texts; in particular, the practice of reading/studying Dhamma with a dhammas perspective is demonstrated repeated in the commentaries (and especially the subcommentaries). However, much more valuable than memorizing details of the commentaries is to understand the approach. The details are just the results of the commentator's intellectual game, the outcome of his particular exercise at that particular time (NOTE: The material in the commentaries is quite diverse, and these comments apply only to the interpretational and systematizing passages and not to context-providing passages). When others use the same general approach, results will vary. The commentaries are useful, helpful, interesting, important, wonderful, etc. BUT they are not sacred. I like your example of the mathematical language with physics. I have another example along the same lines. When I was an undergraduate majoring in mathematics, I took a graduate level abstract algebra course that was well above my head at the time. The textbook was particularly difficult because it only gave very concise sketches or outlines of proofs, and the reader was expected to have enough experience and insight to be able to fill in the blanks without much difficulty. Because I had been a lazy student in my previous courses, I hadn't developed the habit, confidence, or experience necessary for reading the book. Instead, I went to the library and found another book that filled in all the blanks and wrote out all the proofs in great detail, step-by-step. I was delighted! In my excitement, I rushed to the teacher to show him what I found. He was appalled: "You won't ever be able to understand the material by reading or memorizing someone else's detailed explanations. The textbook for the course is much better because you will need to develop your own understanding to be able to read it." Much of the commentaries are like that math book that filled in all the details -- the right answers are there, but the "understanding" is the ability to come up with the right answers on one's own rather than being able to parrot someone else's answers. And understanding is developed not by reading and studying the answers, but, rather, by pondering the questions. Yes, reading a few of the answers to get a handle on the approach is helpful, but the details of someone else's exposition of their understanding of the answers are not helpful (and more likely to be a hindrance). ii. providing interesting and helpful social, cultural, and etymological context; iii. providing material for teaching in person. > Of course some interpretations are more reliable than others; and > some are very unreliable because they serve non-buddhistic goals. > But we had to make again and again interpretations; today we had to > make an interpretation that makes it possible to combine the > Teachings with modernity; Nyanaponika Thera did it 50 years ago (and > KenH, what he did to bring Theravada to the West was very important); > Bhikkhu Bodhi does it now but he is too orthodox, I think; this job > had to be done by a layperson, not by a monk, today. But who? Continuing to teach Dhamma is indeed important, but it is not the job of any one person. Bhikkhu Bodhi is a wonderful teacher, monk though he is. Others include A. Sujin, several dsg members, Bhikkhu Thanissaro (even though many dsg bigwigs are uncomfortable with his approach, as am I), Goenka, and many others. None of these are arahants, though, and none are perfect teachers. Metta, Dan 48762 From: nina Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:37am Subject: Cambodian Lectures. nilovg Dear friends, our reading tonight taken from Kh Sujin's Lectures in Cambodia, Taking Refuge in Buddhism: ******* Nina. 48763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,183 nilovg Hi Tep, just butting in, because I am working on it now. op 13-08-2005 14:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Hi, Larry - > > > Could you please comment on the kind of "concentration" here (jhana > or not)? Thanks. > >> But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements >> (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of >> energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. ------ N: As to the mind-consciousness element that is the mind-door adverting-consciousness, this is an ahetuka kiriyacitta that can perform the function of determining (votthapana) in the five-door processes, and the function of adverting in the mind-door process. It is accompanied by the same cetasikas as the ahetuka vipaakacitta that is investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. Thus, in addition to the universals, it needs the support of applied thought, sustained thought and resolution. Moreover, it also needs viriya, energy. And as we read: Here we see that conascent dhammas condition one another. This does not pertain to jhaana. As we have seen, concentration that accompanies seeing and the other sense-cognitions is weak, it has been denoted as steadiness of citta, citta .t.thiti. We read about this (Vis. 177): < steadiness of consciousness is weak concentration consisting in mere steadiness in occurrence.> The mind-door adverting- consciousness has to perform its function properly and thus it needs energy and more concentration than the preceding ones that were just receiving the sense object and then investigating it. It performs its function of determining the object in the sense-door process and of adverting to the object through the mind-door in the mind-door process. It is kiriyacitta, neither kusala nor akusala but it is followed (in the case of non-arahats) by kusala cittas or akusala cittas and these arise because of accumulated conditions. This reminds us of the uncontrollability of cittas: there is no time to decide whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas will arise. There is a natural order in the seasons, the plant life, kamma and produces result and also in the sequence of the functions of citta. It is the natural order of citta, citta niyaama, that they arise in a certain order in the process of cittas. Each citta performs its own function and it needs exactly the proper cetasikas that assist it in performing its function. Energy has to accompany the mind-door adverting-consciousness just to assist it in performing its function at the right time. The Buddha discovered all phenomena and their conditions. When I think of it, it is truly amazing. Nina. 48764 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:44am Subject: How to be a Real True Buddhist ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation... Today though is Pooya day, uposatha day, observance day, where lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I.." signed with name, date, town & country to me. I will put up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma Sangha here! May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48765 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Entering the Stream Supreme ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Tep Sastri wrote: >see "enough" to be qualified as Stream-winner. Use the mirror of the Dhamma! DN16 Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 48766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] commentaries. nilovg Hi Dan, I am glad you find the Co helpful. If there are things you find strange, it is because we do not understand properly what is meant. We have to look more closely, listen more, study more. Correct, the Path that is mundane is fivefold, and sixfold, and when lokuttara all eight factors arise together. 52 cetasikas, it will take me too long to explain now. But be sure: let's study the commentaries more thoroughly. I like what Phil said:< I think what we don't agree with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting. How can you claim to have better understanding that Buddhaghosa? > Sometimes later on we can understand what seemed strange at first. ----- Herman: "There is something very paradoxical about struggling to keep alive a teaching that leads to extinction, isn't there?" Dan:Paradoxical? Ironic, perhaps... ------- N: The teachings are very precious and now we are born as a human and still have the chance to develop understanding. Even if it is a little, we should be glad. Then we can continue in future lives. But apart from future lives, even now a little more understanding is valuable. It is a rare occasion to be born human, and even rarer to have come across the teachings. It is quite a responsibility to do all we can to help ourselves and others to understand the teachings. We need perseverance, courage, confidence, sati and understanding. All the perfections are essential. Nina. op 13-08-2005 04:15 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > For example, in Dhammasangami, the list of cetasikas is open-ended, > but the Sangaha closes the door at 52, which doesn't make a lot of > sense to me. 48767 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 0:47pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,182 Vism.XIV,183 lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry - > > > Could you please comment on the kind of "concentration" here (jhana > or not)? Thanks. > > >But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements > > (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of > > energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ========= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > > > 182. (57)-(69) Those associated with the resultant consciousness of > the > > fine-material sphere (57)-(61), the immaterial sphere (62)-(65), and the > > supramundane (66)-(69) are similar to the formations associated with > the > > profitable consciousnesses of those kinds (9)-(21) too. > > > > 183. (70)-(89) 'Functional indeterminate' [formations] are also twofold > > classed as those without root-cause (70)-(72) and those with root- > cause > > (73)-(80). Those without root-cause are associated with functional > > consciousness without root-cause; and they are the same as those > > associated [respectively] with profitable resultant mind-element (39) > > and the pair of mind-consciousness-elements without root-cause > > (40)-(41). But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements > > (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of > > energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. Hi Tep, I see that Nina has answered your question but since I've been working on it for the last hour, I'll answer it too. No, these are not jhana cittas so concentration (samadhi) is just the universal cetasika that is referred to in par. 179 as "steadiness of consciousness". The mind-consciousness element referred to as (71) is the 5-door adverting consciousness and the mind-door adverting consciousness. The mind-consciousness elements referred to as (40) and (41) are the investigation and registration consciousnesses accompanied by joy or equanimity, respectively. The mind-consciousness element referred to as (72) is a javana citta unique to arahants. Arahants have two kinds of sense-door javana cittas, with and without root cause cetasikas. (72) is without root cause cetasikas. I believe this is the only javana without root-cause cetasikas (?). However, even the javana with root cause cetasikas is _functional_ because of arahatship. So these roots are not the roots of kamma. So this paragraph is saying, compared to the profitable registration and investigation consciousnesses, "concentration" is stronger in 5- door determining, mind-door adverting (71) and an arahant's javana cittas without root-cause (72). However, there is a bit of a mix-up in the text. The cetasikas that accompany (72) correspond to (40) and the cetasikas that accompany (71) correspond to (41) because both (72) and (40) are accompanied by pleasant feeling. [Is this correct Nina?] By my reckoning the sankhara cetasikas that accompany (72) are: phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, vicara, adhimokkha, piiti, and viriya. This is the arahant's root-causeless javana citta. The same cetasikas accompany 5-door determining and mind-door adverting consciousnesses (71). Corrections welcome. Often, the only way to sort our these consciousnesses is to refer to the chart in Vism., CMA, or Buddhist Dictionary. RobM made a chart for dsg files but it has disappeared. Larry [I left out one point to facilitate understanding: (41) also arises as profitable (kusala) rebirth, bhavanga, or death consciousnesses.] 48768 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:08pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,182 Vism.XIV,183 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry and Nina - I thank you both for giving me two rich answers that are full with Abhdhamma flavors. Please give me some time to digest them and respond appropriately. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry - > > > > > > Could you please comment on the kind of "concentration" here (jhana > > or not)? Thanks. > > > > >But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements > > > (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence > of > > > energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference > here. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ========= > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > > > > > 182. (57)-(69) Those associated with the resultant consciousness > of > > the > > > fine-material sphere (57)-(61), the immaterial sphere (62)-(65), > and the > > > supramundane (66)-(69) are similar to the formations associated > with > > the > > > profitable consciousnesses of those kinds (9)-(21) too. > > > > > > 183. (70)-(89) 'Functional indeterminate' [formations] are also > twofold > > > classed as those without root-cause (70)-(72) and those with root- > > cause > > > (73)-(80). Those without root-cause are associated with functional > > > consciousness without root-cause; and they are the same as those > > > associated [respectively] with profitable resultant mind-element > (39) > > > and the pair of mind-consciousness-elements without root-cause > > > (40)-(41). But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements > > > (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence > of > > > energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference > here. > > Hi Tep, > > I see that Nina has answered your question but since I've been > working on it for the last hour, I'll answer it too. > > No, these are not jhana cittas so concentration (samadhi) is just the > universal cetasika that is referred to in par. 179 as "steadiness of > consciousness". > > The mind-consciousness element referred to as (71) is the 5-door > adverting consciousness and the mind-door adverting consciousness. > The mind-consciousness elements referred to as (40) and (41) are the > investigation and registration consciousnesses accompanied by joy or > equanimity, respectively. The mind-consciousness element referred to > as (72) is a javana citta unique to arahants. Arahants have two kinds > of sense-door javana cittas, with and without root cause cetasikas. > (72) is without root cause cetasikas. I believe this is the only > javana without root-cause cetasikas (?). However, even the javana > with root cause cetasikas is _functional_ because of arahatship. So > these roots are not the roots of kamma. > > So this paragraph is saying, compared to the profitable registration > and investigation consciousnesses, "concentration" is stronger in 5- > door determining, mind-door adverting (71) and an arahant's javana > cittas without root-cause (72). However, there is a bit of a mix-up > in the text. The cetasikas that accompany (72) correspond to (40) and > the cetasikas that accompany (71) correspond to (41) because both > (72) and (40) are accompanied by pleasant feeling. [Is this correct > Nina?] By my reckoning the sankhara cetasikas that accompany (72) > are: phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, vicara, > adhimokkha, piiti, and viriya. This is the arahant's root-causeless > javana citta. The same cetasikas accompany 5-door determining and > mind-door adverting consciousnesses (71). Corrections welcome. > > Often, the only way to sort our these consciousnesses is to refer to > the chart in Vism., CMA, or Buddhist Dictionary. RobM made a chart > for dsg files but it has disappeared. > > Larry > > [I left out one point to facilitate understanding: (41) also arises > as profitable (kusala) rebirth, bhavanga, or death > consciousnesses.] 48769 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Dear friends, our reading tonight taken from Kh Sujin's Lectures in Cambodia, Taking Refuge in Buddhism: ******* Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you so much. The message is very clear. with respect, Htoo Naing 48770 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > I was interested to read your comments. > > > > Like 1st to 3rd and then to 5th and so on. There are kasina jumping. > > Like earth to fire, fire to water, water to wind, wind to earth and > > so > > on. > > > > These are just the matter of Mastery in jhaana. > > > > Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. I say this > > because > > once a person siad 'The Buddha can control ruupa'. :-)) > > > > How would you interpret the following sutta? > > Anguttara Nikaya VI.41 > Daruka-khandha Sutta > The Wood Pile > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak Mountain. Then early in the morning, Ven. > Sariputta put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, was > coming down from Vulture's Peak Mountain with a large group of monks > when he saw a large wood pile off to one side. Seeing it, he said to > the monks, "Friends, do you see that large wood pile over there?" > > "Yes, friend," the monks replied. > > "Friends, if he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained > mastery of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but > earth. Why is that? There is earth-property (or: earth-potential) in > that wood pile, in dependence on which he could will that wood pile to > be nothing but earth. > > "If he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained mastery > of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but water... > fire... wind... beautiful... unattractive. Why is that? There is the > property of the unattractive in that wood pile, in dependence on which > he could will that wood pile to be nothing but unattractive." > Kind Regards > Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, Thanks for your question. But I have less taste in simple English wriiten for Dhamma. I cannot grasp. But mastery in jhana is needed to practise psychic power. To do so is to practise 10 kasinas and to practise jhana in all stages. All materials in this universe is made up of '4 mahabhuta rupa'. Water that we know has 1. earth 2. fire 3. wind 4. water elements. There are 10 kasinas. 1. earth 2. fire 3. wind 4. water 5. blue (brown or dark colour) 6. yellow 7. red 8. white 9. light 10.space When mastery in all jhaana and mastery in all 10 kasina there is possibility to have psychic power. 1. seeing others' mind ( light kasina) 2. creating mass (earth kasina) 3. creating wind (wind kasina) 4. creating unobstruction in walls (space kasina) 5. walking in the air (earth kasina) 6. flying in the air (space kasina) 7. walking on water (earth kasina) 8. sinking under the ground/earth (water kasina) 9. seeing obstructed things (fire kasina, light kasina) 10.hearing sounds far away (wind kasina) 11.hiding self (brown kasina) 12.seeing in the dark (light kasina) and many others. For mastery there are ways to practise jhana. 1,2,3,4,5 and then 5,4,3,2,1. 1,3,5 and then 5,3,1. And so on. This is jhana jumping. There are practices in kasina. 1 to 10, 10 to 1. 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10 etc etc. Again this mastery has to be practised with vasii or 5 kinds of mastery. 1. one has to be able to turn 'his mind' directly to intended jhaana. 2. one has to be able to enter his intended jhana. 3. one has to be able to remain in jhana for defined period 4. one has to be able to emerge from jhana 5. one has to be able to retrospect on jhana When these masteries have been achieved then psychic power is not far away. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48771 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Robertk, Thank you for discussing this with me. > The confounding of Saddhamma (True teaching) > > Anguttara Nikaya book of fives 155 > "Monks these five things lead to the confounding, the disappearance > of Saddhamma. What five? > Herein monks, the monks master not Dhamma:. The sayings, > psalms...runes. > This monks is the first thing... > The teach not others in detail as heard, as learned.... > They make not others speak it in detail.... > They make no repetition of it in detail... > Again monks, the monks do not in their hearts turn over and ponder > upon Dhamma, they review it not in their minds. > This monks is the fifth thing that leads to the confounding, the > disappearance of Saddhamma" The following is a discussion at a logical level only. It is done with a mind to clarifying the meanings of the words, not to challenge anyone's faith. You quote "the monks master not Dhamma:. The sayings, psalms...runes. It is rendered elsewhere as the monks master not "the Teaching in the discourses, in verse and prose sections, in answer-explanation expositions, verses, solemn utterances, Thus said sayings, birth stories, wonderful things and a series of questions and answers." Clearly, before the formal recitations of an authoritative tipitaka, with or without the Abhidhamma, there was Dhamma, there was the Teachings. The question is ; do we equate the tipitaka with Dhamma, the Teachings. Is Dhamma a formal and closed body of statements, or is Dhamma whatever Teaching, Law, Way applies in whatever situation a man woman or child finds themself in? The Buddha teaches all comers. A Veda scholar will hear his Veda coming back at him in a different way, a householder will hear his duties and obligations coming back at him another way. As will a monk have his beliefs challenged. And so on. On the other hand, the tipitaka is silent on TCP/IP, microwave ovens, aeronautical engineering, differential calculus, nuclear warfare, the cloning of sheep and the charter of human rights. Is there no Dhamma for the modern wo/man? Of course not. There was Dhamma before, and there will be Dhamma well after the tipitaka. Is this devaluing the tipitaka? Not in the slightest. Where there is understanding, be that of the tipitaka or any other body of work, there is Dhamma. Where there is no understanding, there may well be a tipitaka, but no Dhamma. Is the tipitaka and the vast body of work it has spawned a sure and unsinkable Titanic guaranteed to get us to the other shore? No, for two reasons. 1] There is no other shore. 2] There is no other shore. The other shore is a teaching device. It does not have its own existence or nature. It cannot be found to be grasped at. The tipitaka is a collection of teaching devices. Do we take refuge in the tipitaka, or in the Dhamma? Kind Regards Herman 48772 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Dear Dan and Joop, Dear Dan, 3 bows in your very specific direction. I don't know where U are. Therefore 3 bows in your general direction. Only one problem with this post, and the previous one to me. The thought arises in me : why doesn't this guy write more!!!! (Take note, Frank :-)) Oh, such clinging. Joop, I reckon you are spot on. Thank you. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Joop, > I agree that Buddhaghosa made a great contribution by developing a > magnificent, rational, scholastic system out of seemingly disparate, > difficult, subtle teachings. That being said, I'm not convinced that > a rational, scholastic study of the teachings is at all helpful for > developing insight or understanding -- or, as you put it so > succinctly, "it is difficult to find 'spiritual dynamics' in his > work." > > The commentaries are very helpful for: > i. illustrating an approach to interpreting and understanding the > primary texts; in particular, the practice of reading/studying Dhamma > with a dhammas perspective is demonstrated repeated in the > commentaries (and especially the subcommentaries). However, much more > valuable than memorizing details of the commentaries is to understand > the approach. The details are just the results of the commentator's > intellectual game, the outcome of his particular exercise at that > particular time (NOTE: The material in the commentaries is quite > diverse, and these comments apply only to the interpretational and > systematizing passages and not to context-providing passages). When > others use the same general approach, results will vary. The > commentaries are useful, helpful, interesting, important, wonderful, > etc. BUT they are not sacred. I like your example of the mathematical > language with physics. I have another example along the same lines. > When I was an undergraduate majoring in mathematics, I took a > graduate level abstract algebra course that was well above my head at > the time. The textbook was particularly difficult because it only > gave very concise sketches or outlines of proofs, and the reader was > expected to have enough experience and insight to be able to fill in > the blanks without much difficulty. Because I had been a lazy student > in my previous courses, I hadn't developed the habit, confidence, or > experience necessary for reading the book. Instead, I went to the > library and found another book that filled in all the blanks and > wrote out all the proofs in great detail, step-by-step. I was > delighted! In my excitement, I rushed to the teacher to show him what > I found. He was appalled: "You won't ever be able to understand the > material by reading or memorizing someone else's detailed > explanations. The textbook for the course is much better because you > will need to develop your own understanding to be able to read it." > Much of the commentaries are like that math book that filled in all > the details -- the right answers are there, but the "understanding" > is the ability to come up with the right answers on one's own rather > than being able to parrot someone else's answers. And understanding > is developed not by reading and studying the answers, but, rather, by > pondering the questions. Yes, reading a few of the answers to get a > handle on the approach is helpful, but the details of someone else's > exposition of their understanding of the answers are not helpful (and > more likely to be a hindrance). > ii. providing interesting and helpful social, cultural, and > etymological context; > iii. providing material for teaching in person. > > > Of course some interpretations are more reliable than others; and > > some are very unreliable because they serve non-buddhistic goals. > > But we had to make again and again interpretations; today we had to > > make an interpretation that makes it possible to combine the > > Teachings with modernity; Nyanaponika Thera did it 50 years ago > (and > > KenH, what he did to bring Theravada to the West was very > important); > > Bhikkhu Bodhi does it now but he is too orthodox, I think; this job > > had to be done by a layperson, not by a monk, today. But who? > > Continuing to teach Dhamma is indeed important, but it is not the job > of any one person. Bhikkhu Bodhi is a wonderful teacher, monk though > he is. Others include A. Sujin, several dsg members, Bhikkhu > Thanissaro (even though many dsg bigwigs are uncomfortable with his > approach, as am I), Goenka, and many others. None of these are > arahants, though, and none are perfect teachers. > > Metta, > Dan 48773 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. egberdina Hi Htoo, Thank you for this exhaustive and careful answer. Is there any sense, in the sutta I quoted, that there is control over ruupas? In which way do you think the elements are changed by one with psychic powers? Does this say anything about the idea of sabhava? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > > > I was interested to read your comments. > > > > > > > Like 1st to 3rd and then to 5th and so on. There are kasina > jumping. > > > Like earth to fire, fire to water, water to wind, wind to earth > and > > > so > > > on. > > > > > > These are just the matter of Mastery in jhaana. > > > > > > Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. I say this > > > because > > > once a person siad 'The Buddha can control ruupa'. :-)) > > > > > > > How would you interpret the following sutta? > > > > Anguttara Nikaya VI.41 > > Daruka-khandha Sutta > > The Wood Pile > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > > Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak Mountain. Then early in the morning, Ven. > > Sariputta put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, > was > > coming down from Vulture's Peak Mountain with a large group of monks > > when he saw a large wood pile off to one side. Seeing it, he said to > > the monks, "Friends, do you see that large wood pile over there?" > > > > "Yes, friend," the monks replied. > > > > "Friends, if he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having > attained > > mastery of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but > > earth. Why is that? There is earth-property (or: earth-potential) in > > that wood pile, in dependence on which he could will that wood pile > to > > be nothing but earth. > > > > "If he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained mastery > > of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but water... > > fire... wind... beautiful... unattractive. Why is that? There is the > > property of the unattractive in that wood pile, in dependence on > which > > he could will that wood pile to be nothing but unattractive." > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for your question. But I have less taste in simple English > wriiten for Dhamma. I cannot grasp. > > But mastery in jhana is needed to practise psychic power. To do so is > to practise 10 kasinas and to practise jhana in all stages. > > All materials in this universe is made up of '4 mahabhuta rupa'. > > Water that we know has > > 1. earth > 2. fire > 3. wind > 4. water elements. > > There are 10 kasinas. > > 1. earth > 2. fire > 3. wind > 4. water > > 5. blue (brown or dark colour) > 6. yellow > 7. red > 8. white > > 9. light > 10.space > > When mastery in all jhaana and mastery in all 10 kasina there is > possibility to have psychic power. > > 1. seeing others' mind ( light kasina) > 2. creating mass (earth kasina) > 3. creating wind (wind kasina) > 4. creating unobstruction in walls (space kasina) > 5. walking in the air (earth kasina) > 6. flying in the air (space kasina) > 7. walking on water (earth kasina) > 8. sinking under the ground/earth (water kasina) > 9. seeing obstructed things (fire kasina, light kasina) > 10.hearing sounds far away (wind kasina) > 11.hiding self (brown kasina) > 12.seeing in the dark (light kasina) > > and many others. > > For mastery there are ways to practise jhana. 1,2,3,4,5 and then > 5,4,3,2,1. 1,3,5 and then 5,3,1. And so on. This is jhana jumping. > > There are practices in kasina. 1 to 10, 10 to 1. 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10 > etc etc. > > Again this mastery has to be practised with vasii or 5 kinds of > mastery. > > 1. one has to be able to turn 'his mind' directly to intended jhaana. > 2. one has to be able to enter his intended jhana. > 3. one has to be able to remain in jhana for defined period > 4. one has to be able to emerge from jhana > 5. one has to be able to retrospect on jhana > > When these masteries have been achieved then psychic power is not far > away. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 48774 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:08pm Subject: Re: letter from Lisa egberdina Hi Sarah, How are things? I'm hoping that Jon and you are having a wow of a time. (an equanimous wow, of course :-)). I just can't imagine it would be quite as rewarding to swim in water that hasn't got icecubes in it :-) Please pass on my fond regards to Lisa. I thought her private signing off post was a classic. To think that so much wisdom and understanding could have gone unshared. Thank you for sharing it Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > The following letter was sent to us off-list in response to a note we sent > her when she unsubscribed. I'll make sure that any replies from anyone are > brought to her attention. S. > ========================================== > > Dear Sarah and Jon and all of you lovely, wonderful Dhammafriends: > > Thank you for your e-mail and concern about my leaving the group even > though the thought is empty of reality as it is and the caring I read > into this letter is as empty as a soap bubble riding the breath of this > very hot summer day. > > 48775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Satipatthaana (10) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 20 contemplations are on 'detail movements' of own body, 20 are on 'detail movements' of others' body, and 20 contemplations are on 'detail movements' of both 'own body' and 'others body'. As said in previous post, the contemplation is not on 'the idea of so and so detail movement' or not on 'the words written in any text' or not on 'the words spoken by any teacher'. But the contemplation has to be on 'ruupa' or 'naama'. There are 20 'detail movements'. 1. abhikkante (when going foreward) 2. pa.tikkante(when coming back) 3. aalokite (when looking straight ahead) 4. vilokite (when looking else where) 5. sami~njite (when bending limbs, trunk) 6. pasaarite (when straightening bent part) 7. sa`nghaa.ti patta civara dhaarane(when holding over-coat,bowl,gar) 8. asite (when eating) 9. piite (when drinking) 10.khaayite (when biting) 11.saayite (when licking) 12.uccaara kamme(when defecating) 13.passaava kamme(when urinating) 14.gate (when going) 15..thite (when standing still) 16.nissinne (when sitting) 17.sutte (when going to sleep) 18.jaagarite (when waking) 19.bhaasite (when speaking) 20.tunhniibhaave(when being silent) The 20 contemplations are not on 'these 20 detail movements'. They are on 'ruupas' that arise from these 20 detail movements. For simplicity it is named 'contemplations on detail movements'. There arise ruupa in own body when these 20 detail movements are done. The meditator notes on them and understand them. When these ruupas are understood then he may sometimes perceives that these ruupas will be arising in others' body when they are in these 20 detail movements. And sometimes the meditator will be happy to perceive that 'ruupas will have been arising in both his or her own body and others' body when these 20 detail movements are done'. Here 'going forward' comprises all short-range distances and long- range distances. Examples; when one is doing walking meditation, he will first walk to a place and then come back. These are 2 detail movements. Or when one goes to a place beyond visible sight and came back to the original place, he will have to note in the same manner. The Buddha instructed His disciples bhikkhus to be mindful noting bodily ruupa. This has be done not only in monastery but also in alm rounds. First bhikkhus will go to town or village for alm round and then they will come back to the monastery. There are 4 types of bhikkhus when they go for alm round. 1. contemplating on detail movements when go for alm round and on return there is no more contemplation on detail movement 2. free of contemplation on detail movement because of hungriness but contemplating on detail movement on return. 3. free of contemplation on detail movements on both trips that is 'going forward' and 'coming back'. 4. continuous contemplation on detail movements on both trips of 'going for alm round' and 'coming back to the monastery'. When contemplating on 'going forward', it is just to note on 'ruupa' that arise from going forward. Examples are 'tenseness' 'supportiveness' 'lightness' 'heaviness' etc etc. Contemplation on 'coming back' is like on 'going forward'. When 'looking straight', one has to note 'naama' that leads to the movement of head, neck and eyes and the movements of fixation and 'rupa' that arise from these movement. And when looking else where the same contemplation applied to 'naama' and 'ruupa'. It is not like 'I am looking straight' 'I am looking else where'. The contemplation is not on 'words' not on 'texts' and not on 'ideas of these'. But on 'naama' or 'ruupa' when these detail movements are carried out. When bending or straightening there arise 'a mind' that is going to perform detail movement. It is noted and then 'ruupa' arise from bending or straightening are also noted in almost continuous fashion or as soon as remember to note these ruupas. The Buddha first described 15 contemplations on breathing. This is because 'breathing' is the centre of life and it is occuring all the time. Contemplations have to be on ruupas that arise from 'breathing related movements'. The Buddha then preached on another way of contemplating on body and it is 4 major postures. After 'breathing' the most prominent thing in the body is 'posture'. In all postures there are ruupa arising all the time. There are proprioceptive sensations or 'the sense of the positions of all joints and their relations to each other'. These sensations are actually 'vayo' or 'supportiveness'. When walking, standing, sitting, and lying down these proprioceptions arise and they are noted as they are. Vayo is a ruupa. It is 'wind element'. Example for 'vayo' is pressure in a balloon. Physically there is air in the balloon. The air equally press on all the walls of the balloon. This pressure supports the balloon. This supportiveness is vayo. This pressure is vayo whether it causes movements or not. The pressure in side may be in any degree. So when there is low pressure, the balloon will be laxed and when high it will be tense. This sense of tenseness-looseness is sensed by the body (kaaya pasada or body sensitivity). When standing there is supportiveness at heels, ankles, knees, hips, backbones and their joints, shoulders, elbows, wrists, neck bones and their joints, finger joints, toe joints. Likewise there are ruupa (vayo) when walking, sitting, lying down. After postures The Buddha continued to explain on 20 detail movements. Again these contemplations have to be on 'naama' or 'ruupa' and not on 'the ideas of these movements' or not on 'the words describing these 20 detail movements'. Actually these 20 detail movements are parts of 4 major postures. Examples are 'going forward and coming back'. But these 2 detail movements bridge 4 postures and ruupas arise from these bridging movements have to be contemplated. Looking straight and looking else where are also part of 4 major postures. But they are more detail and they bridge 4 major postures. Bending limbs or trunk and straightening them back are also part of 4 major postures. But they are more detailed and they are bridging movements to 4 major postures. What to contemplate is on 'naama' or 'ruupa' and not on 'any other'. Holding or handling anything (over-coat, bowl, garment or any utensil or any cloth or any material) is actually part of 4 major postures. They are bridging movements to 4 major postures. Handling or holding is actually 'bending of finger joints' and there arise 'ruupa' at these joints. Eating, drinking, biting, licking are also part of 4 major postures. But they are bridging movements. They are also related to 'feeding movements'. This is a place where almost all meditators may forget to continue contemplating on 'naama' or 'ruupa' arising from these detail movements because of hunger and their craving. But they may remember to contemplate on them after finishing up their food or after easing of hunger. Again, contemplations are not on 'words I am eating, drinking, biting, licking' or not on 'ideas of these'. When defecating and urinating, meditators may forget to note or contemplate on this detail movement because of 'subtle craving that wants to void uneaseness'. What to note or contemplate here is on 'ruupas' that arise from these acts. Example; when defecating one has to squeeze his or her tummy. There arise a mind to squeeze. Because of this there arises tenseness in abdomen and after tha act there is looseness or laxness in the abdomen and the meditators have to contemplate on these ruupas that arise from these 2 acts of defecation and urination. Apart from 4 major postures there are many minor movements. One may move just half a step or a few steps. Whenever he moves or go he has to contemplate on ruupas that arise from going or moving. He may stops moving and stands still. This may or may not be 'classical standing posture. But when stands still there also arise 'ruupas' and these ruupas have to be contemplated. One may sit in a posture that is not of 'classical sitting posture' but this minor posture has to be noted and ruupas have to be contemplated. Just before going into sleep, some may remember to contemplate on such state. At that time there also arise 'naama' and 'ruupa' and these are contemplated. When wake up, there do arise naama and ruupa related to this action of waking up and they are contemplated. As meditators are social beings they will be communicating in any form with others. When this is remembered then it has to be noted. When speaking, one has to contemplate on 'speaking realted ruupas'. And when 'not speaking' or when 'being silent' it also has to be contemplated. When these details are contemplated and there is almost no interruption then one is said to be in 'the realm of contemplating' or 'gocara sampajanna' and when there is total absence of interruption and there is continuous understanding on 'naama' and 'ruupa' as they arise and pass away then it is said that it is 'asammoha sampajanna' or 'clear understanding'. When these 20 detail movements in own body are understood then the meditator will have also perceived that there will be ruupas or naamas arsing in others' body. He sometimes will have perceived that 'ruupas' or 'naamas' will be arising and passing away in both 'own boy' and 'others' body'. So there are 60 contemplations. These 60 movements do have originations and they are contemplated. When they vanish then dissolutions are also contemplated. Sometimes the meditator will be perceiving both origination and dissolution factors. So there are 3 extra contemplations related to these 20 movements. So there are 63 contemplations on 'detail movements of body'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48776 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:37pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thank you for this exhaustive and careful answer. Is there any sense, in the sutta I quoted, that there is control over ruupas? In which way do you think the elements are changed by one with psychic powers? Does this say anything about the idea of sabhava? Kind Regards Herman -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, Namma cannot be controlled. And ruupas cannot be controlled. Both dhamma are conditioned dhamma. They are sankhaara dhamma. They are anatta. If they can be controlled and what we like them to be then they cannot be anatta. But they are not. Jhana powers are not controlling anything. What happen is jhaana arise. As jhaana arises, abhinnaa arises if there they are. As abhinnaa arise there arise consciousness-born ruupas. Jhana arise because of conditions. Abhinnaa arise because of conditions. Consciousness-born ruupas arise because of consciousness. Naama and ruupas arise because of conditions and they all have to pass away when they have lived their life. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48777 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. egberdina Thank you, Htoo, for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Thank you for this exhaustive and careful answer. > > Is there any sense, in the sutta I quoted, that there is control over > ruupas? In which way do you think the elements are changed by one with > psychic powers? Does this say anything about the idea of sabhava? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Herman, > > Namma cannot be controlled. And ruupas cannot be controlled. Both > dhamma are conditioned dhamma. They are sankhaara dhamma. They > are anatta. If they can be controlled and what we like them to be then > they cannot be anatta. But they are not. Jhana powers are not > controlling anything. > > What happen is jhaana arise. As jhaana arises, abhinnaa arises if > there they are. As abhinnaa arise there arise consciousness-born > ruupas. Jhana arise because of conditions. Abhinnaa arise because of > conditions. Consciousness-born ruupas arise because of consciousness. > Naama and ruupas arise because of conditions and they all have to > pass away when they have lived their life. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing == I understand what you are saying, but none of it refers to the sutta I quoted. I am happy to leave it. Kind Regards Herman 48778 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Phil, I think that we have covered some of these areas before, in previous discussions, but maybe a review would be helpful Phil: The purpose of the Buddha's teaching isn't to be a better person, I think. It's to disappear as a person. James: Well, even though I agree with the sentiment: Buddha's teaching has to goal of release from samsara, I don't think that is going to happen until you become a better person. Maybe you are thinking of 'better person' in a non-Buddhist sense (good citizen, kind, generous) but I am thinking of 'better person' in a Buddhist sense (wise, content, unattached). Phil: I think that in the practice of brahma-viharas as it is taught now there is too much of an emphasis on accumulating virtue, accumulating the wholesome. James: I'm not sure what this means, but the Buddha taught the Brahma-Viharas for a very specific purpose. The Brahma-Viharas prepare the mind for insight and allow one to be reborn into the deva realms if enlightenment isn't achieved. Actually, during the Buddha's time, the King of the Devas noticed how the population of the deva realms was increasing. He came to visit the Buddha to see what was going on. Phil, you state that you aren't really that interested in achieving enlightenment. Surely, you must know that after this lifetime you are going to be reborn. If all you do is study this Abhidhamma stuff, fail to build compassion and metta for others, then your negative karma could take the upper hand and you could be reborn into a state of woe. People plan for their retirement and old age, well I say that they should also plan for their death and rebirth. Phil: Wow, James, I did the exact same thing! When we moved, we threw out the exercuse bike, but I used to ride it and radiate metta. Reflect on the noble truths, and radiate metta. James: Gosh, we do have a lot in common. The difference is that I see the value in this activity while you have devalued it. Phil: Hopefully you know that selective reading of suttaas and commentaries is Mara's way of getting you further wrapped up in yourself. James: Who told you this? Phil: How can you claim to have better understanding that Buddhaghosa? That's so silly. James: I don't claim to have 'better understanding' than Buddhaghosa. I don't claim to be better than him, less than him, or the same as him- all of that type of thinking would be conceit. I am a free thinker and can choose for myself what to accept and what not to accept- and I don't come to my conclusions by comparing myself to others. That is what would be silly. ;-)) Phil: I know there is the metta sutta, in which this is taught, but could you (or anyone) explain how this could be reconciled with the anatta sutta, which clearly states that we can't have mental formations the way we would like them to be. James: Yes, you cannot change the nature of mental formations, but you can change the content. If I tell you "Think about an apple", you can think about any apple. But if I tell you "Think like an apple" you can't possibly do that. It is possible to generate and radiate metta. Phil: Wishing you a safe and pleasant journey back to Cairo James: Thanks a lot! (btw, that is sending me metta ;-)) Metta, James 48779 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] commentaries. onco111 Great to hear from you, Nina. I'm tempted to ask you if you can help me understand where the exact 52 count came from -- yeah, yeah... I recall seeing it in the commentaries, but from Dhammasangani I only see things like "At that time (in addition to the above [cetasikas]) there are other incorporeal dhammaa which are causally produced" and "at that time, besides the above, and apart from the aggregate of sensation, the aggregate of perception and the aggregate of consciousness, there are other incorporeal dhamma which are causally produced. This at at that time is the aggregate of volitional activities". The analysis is always open ended. In the commentaries, though, the 52 count seems like a rationalized, logic-derived inference rather than an insighting -- something along the lines of, "Hmmm... how many cetasikas are there? Well, let's count them. In such and such a text, x are mentioned; elsewhere, an additional y are mentioned; and z are mentioned in other parts of the Tipitika. x+y+z=52, so there are 52 cetasikas. Here's a list." And regarding your comment: "I like what Phil said:< I think what we don't agree with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting. How can you claim to have better understanding that Buddhaghosa? >" That's certainly my approach -- set aside parts of the commentaries (and other teachings as well, but to a lesser extent). No need to reject and no need to blindly accept and parrot. And regarding: "We need perseverance, courage, confidence, sati and understanding. All the perfections are essential." --- well said! With metta and joy, your friend in Dhamma, Dan 48780 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Dear Herman, Thanks for your kind words (and your kind of words too, and even your kind-of words [like "U"]). If you aim your bows at Oregon, I'll certainly get them. And, you ask (rather loudly, I might add): "why doesn't this guy write more!!!!" And I answer: He's not scheduled to retire for another 27 years. Hope to see more of you then! Wide open metta, Dan 48781 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,183 nilovg Hi Larry and Tep, op 13-08-2005 21:47 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: >>> (73)-(80). Those without root-cause are associated with functional >>> consciousness without root-cause; and they are the same as those >>> associated [respectively] with profitable resultant mind-element > (39) >>> and the pair of mind-consciousness-elements without root-cause >>> (40)-(41). But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements >>> (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence > of >>> energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference > here. > The mind-consciousness element referred to as (71) is the 5-door > adverting consciousness and the mind-door adverting consciousness. > The mind-consciousness elements referred to as (40) and (41) are the > investigation and registration consciousnesses accompanied by joy or > equanimity, respectively. -------- N: No, there could be confusion about retention or registration consciousnesses. This is not a separate type of citta, but a function of citta. It is shorthand for: the citta performing the function of registration, or retention. Eleven types can perform it, mahaa-vipaakacittas cittas (with roots) and three ahetuka vipaakacittas. When it is ahetuka vipaakacitta, santiira.nacitta performs it. There are three types of santiiranacitta: ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by joy, ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. (40) and (41) are santiira.nacittaaccompanied by joy and santiira.nacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. --------- L: The mind-consciousness element referred to > as (72) is a javana citta unique to arahants. Arahants have two kinds > of sense-door javana cittas, with and without root cause cetasikas. > (72) is without root cause cetasikas. I believe this is the only > javana without root-cause cetasikas (?). However, even the javana > with root cause cetasikas is _functional_ because of arahatship. So > these roots are not the roots of kamma. ------ N: Correct, arahats do not perform kamma. --------- L: So this paragraph is saying, compared to the profitable registration > and investigation consciousnesses, "concentration" is stronger in 5- > door determining, mind-door adverting (71) and an arahant's javana > cittas without root-cause (72). However, there is a bit of a mix-up in the text. The cetasikas that accompany (72) correspond to (40) and the cetasikas that accompany (71) correspond to (41) because both > (72) and (40) are accompanied by pleasant feeling. [Is this correct > Nina?] ------- N: Yes, the text should not have said respectively, this is not in the Pali. Then there can be a mix up with pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling. The Tiika specifies that the cetasikas with smileproducing citta are the same as santiira.na citta with somanassa, pleasant feeling, and the cetasikas with vo.t.thapana citta (this is the mind-door adverting citta) are the same as santiira.nacitta with upekkhaa. It states that the only difference here is that there is samaadhi that has become powerful because of viriya. L: By my reckoning the sankhara cetasikas that accompany (72) > are: phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, vicara, > adhimokkha, piiti, and viriya. This is the arahant's root-causeless > javana citta. The same cetasikas accompany 5-door determining and > mind-door adverting consciousnesses (71). Corrections welcome. ------ N: Yes. ------- L: Often, the only way to sort our these consciousnesses is to refer to > the chart in Vism., CMA, or Buddhist Dictionary. RobM made a chart > for dsg files but it has disappeared. ----- N: Beware of charts, I avoid them. Let us try to understand first, and then we shall remember. NIna. 48782 From: nina Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:06am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183. Intro. In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with kiriyacittas, inoperative cittas that are neither cause nor result. Text Vis.183: (70)-(89) 'Functional indeterminate' [formations] are also twofold classed as those without root-cause (70)-(72) and those with root-cause (73)-(80). ------ N: the ahetuka kiriyacittas referred to here are: the five-door adverting-consciousness, pañcadvaaravajjana-citta, the mind-door adverting-consciousness and the smiling-consciousness of the arahat, hasituppada-citta. Sahetuka kiriyacittas are the kiriyacittas of the arahat that perform the function of javana. -------- Text Vis.: Those without root-cause are associated with functional consciousness without root-cause; and they are the same as those associated [respectively] with profitable resultant mind-element (39) and the pair of mind-consciousness-elements without root-cause (40)-(41). But in the case of the two mind-consciousness-elements (71)-(72), energy (vi) is additional, and because of the presence of energy, concentration (viii) is strong. This is the difference here. --------- N: The cetasikas that accompany the five-door adverting-consciousness are the same as those accompanying the ahetuka vipaakacitta that is receiving-consciousness, sampaticchana-citta, and these are: the universals, and in addition applied thought, sustained thought and resolution. The ahetuka kiriyacitta that is the five-door adverting-consciousness as well as the ahetuka vipaakacitta that is receiving-consciousness are mind-element, mano-dhaatu. The five-door adverting-consciousness is the first citta of a sense-door process arising after the bhavangacitta. It adverts to the object that impinges on one of the senses and it is then followed by one of the sense-cognitions. It needs the universals, applied thought, sustained thought and resolution in order to perform its function of afverting to the new object impinging on one of the senses. As to the mind-consciousness element that is the mind-door adverting-consciousness, this is an ahetuka kiriyacitta that can perform the function of determining (votthapana) in the five-door processes, and the function of adverting in the mind-door process. It is accompanied by the same cetasikas as the ahetuka vipaakacitta that is investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta, which is accompanied by indifferent feeling. There are three types of santiiranacitta: ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by pleasant feeling, ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. The mind-door adverting-consciousness needs in addition to the universals, the support of applied thought, sustained thought and resolution. Moreover, it also needs viriya, energy. And as we read: Here we see that conascent dhammas condition one another. As we have seen, concentration that accompanies seeing and the other sense-cognitions is weak, it has been denoted as steadiness of citta, citta .t.thiti. We read about this (Vis. 177): < steadiness of consciousness is weak concentration consisting in mere steadiness in occurrence.> Seeing arises at the eyebase and sees visible object, it does not need strong concentration in order to see. It is the same with the other sense-cognitions. The mind-door adverting- consciousness has to perform its function properly and thus it needs energy and stronger concentration than the preceding ones that were just receiving the sense object and then investigating it. It performs its function of determining the object in the sense-door process and of adverting to the object through the mind-door in the mind-door process. It is kiriyacitta, neither kusala nor akusala but it is followed (in the case of non-arahats) by kusala cittas or akusala cittas and these arise because of accumulated conditions. This reminds us of the uncontrollability of cittas: there is no time to decide whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas will arise. As to the smiling-consciousness of the arahat, the hasituppaada-citta, this is also a mind-consciousness element that is an ahetuka kiriyacitta, and it is accompanied by pleasant feeling. Therefore, in addition to the universals, to applied thought, sustained thought, resolution and energy, it is also accompanied by the particular that is piiti, rapture. Concentration that accompanies this citta is strong because of the presence of energy. Rapture arises, in the case of cittas of the sense sphere, together with cittas accompanied by pleasant feeling. The smiling-consciousness of the arahat is an ahetuka kiriyacitta, it is without the hetus of alobha, adosa and paññaa. The cittas of the arahat are not always accompanied by paññaa. It arises with respect to such unsublime objects as the forms of skeletons or ghosts. **** The Tiika specifies that the cetasikas accompanying the smile-producing citta are the same as those accompanying santiira.na citta with somanassa, pleasant feeling, and that the cetasikas accompanying vo.t.thapana citta (this is the mind-door adverting citta) are the same as santiira.nacitta with upekkhaa. It states that the only difference here is that the two kinds of mind-consciousness elements (smile-producing-consciousness and mind-door adverting-consciousness) are accompanied by samaadhi that has become powerful because of viriya. There is a natural order in the seasons, the plant life, kamma and produces result and also in the sequence of the functions of citta. It is the natural order of citta, citta niyaama, that they arise in a certain order in the process of cittas. Each citta performs its own function and it needs exactly the proper cetasikas that assist it in performing its function. Energy has to accompany the mind-door adverting-consciousness just to assist it in performing its function at the right time. The Buddha discovered all phenomena and their conditions. ******* Nina. 48783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] commentaries. nilovg Dear Dan, thank you for your kind mail. Yes, I know your approach is the same unprejudiced way as Phil. Not rejecting, not parrotting. 52 cetasikas, I can refer to Nyanaponika Abhidhamma studies who explains the open list very well and refers to sutta examples. If you need a summary, I try later on, but now I am kept very busy by Visuddhimagga. Or do you have the book? Nina. op 14-08-2005 08:46 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: I'm tempted to ask you if you can help > me understand where the exact 52 count came from 48784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:21am Subject: eCard from Noosa -- Visit to Sunshine Beach jonoabb Hi All Yesterday's discussion was followed by another equally stimulating and pleasant one, this time at KenH's spacious home just south of Noosa. Ken has managed to combine beach and bushland settings, so we had bird calls as background music and a dip in the surf for our pre-lunch appetiser. Present were the same Cooran 'regulars' as for yesterday, except that Steve had family commitments and could not make it (his presence was missed). Again we discussed a wide range of topics. One of the great features of repeat sessions like this is that topics previously discussed can be considered further, so there was a degree of overlap with yesterday (but not really any repetition). Here are some of the things discussed: What constitutes 'hearing the teachings'? Quality vs. quantity. Care in reading terms in the suttas such as 'delight' and 'rousing'. Is our goal is cessation? Really? The idea that 99.9% of our consciousness is akusala and, if so, are we 'living on stale fare'? Linear time as a constraining concept; gaining a more holistic perspective on things (and what are those 'things'?) The value of a previous experience of 'time-freed' consciousness The mystery of the absence of an overriding something that keeps it all together Decisions, choices and plans -- what are they actually? The roles of accumulations and kamma/vipaka Loss of car keys (left on beach). Panic, then relief on finding. Vipaka or what? Relevance to lay followers of rules for monks; relevance to monks of rules made in a different age; relevance of order is this day and age. And more … A very pleasant day. Tonight is our last night in Noosa and in Australia, so time to do some packing in preparation for the drive to Brisbane airport tomorrow morning. Our thanks to all for great discussions along the way so far, and to Andrew and KenH for arranging the last two days. PS Some omissions from yesterday's list of topics: Whether all wrong views are aspects of either annihilationism or eternalism. Whether the Buddha taught attention to a chosen object (RobM's sutta can be read as supporting) Tanha in DO: why not dosa? Whether access concentration can support levitation(??!) 48785 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:42pm Subject: The Three Jewels ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Three Jewels of Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher & guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened & enlightened is the Buddha!!! Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here & now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine & verify. Leading each & everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable & realizable by each intelligence... Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's disciples; the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these eight kinds of individuals, the four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, self-sacrifice, offerings, hospitality & reverential salutation with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable & forever unsurpassed field of merit, in the world, for the world, to honour, and donate to... Repeating this verbal device daily confer gradual growth of faith, confidence & conviction, which is the initiating spiritual ability... By thorough examination this matures in the ability to understand! Like a razor blade can be sharpened on a mirror... Faith emanates from the heart!!! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48786 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:49am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Robertk, > > Thank you for discussing this with me. >.... Dear Herman May I butt in. Nice to discuss with you (and Dan), luckily we don't agree in every aspect. It seems you made the last step I have not (yet) taken: H: "There was Dhamma before, and there will be Dhamma well after the tipitaka. Is this devaluing the tipitaka? Not in the slightest. Where there is understanding, be that of the tipitaka or any other body of work, there is Dhamma. Where there is no understanding, there may well be a tipitaka, but no Dhamma." Joop: Funny you write 'Dhamma' with a capital 'D' and 'tipitaka' without capaital 't'. I use capitals too when I write about importyant, high-valued concepts or entities; but in fact all this capital using is a kind of idealism (Plato), of metaphysics. It's even 'ontology'. First a step to natural science: I think the evolutionary theory is more or less true, so the human race (homo sapiens sapiens) did not yet exist a million years ago. Perhaps it started only 50000 a 100000 years ago and perhaps only 10000 years ago a human being had the brains that he/she could use concepts. So in this frame of reference my question (to you) is: did your 'Dhamma' already exist more than 10000 years ago? It could not yet exist in a human mind but did it already exist 'as such'? My answer to this question is: no, it's a human invention. Of course it's possible that such a genial (but human) invention is made many times in the thousands of years and in many places. It's possible but we only know one occurence of it: the teachings of the Buddha 2500 years ago. To be honest when I talk on this admiring way about the 'teachings' I only think about some suttas and more especially about two terms: anicca and anatta. But perhaps I should understand you in an other way, or in fact I hope I can: The MESSAGE of the Buddha can be broadcasted in many ways. The Buddha already did that: skilful means (or skillful means, english is a strange language) I fact Nina's and Phil's wise words: "I think what we don't agree with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting" are a kind of skilful means too. Metta Joop 48787 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 482 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 9 stocks of akusala dhamma, upadaana dhamma or clinging is one stock of akusala dhamma. There are four upadaanas. They are 1. kaamupadaana or sensuous clinging 2. ditthupadaana or speculative clinging 3. siilabbatupadaana or ritualistic clinging 4. attavaadupadaana or self clinging 4. attavaadupadaana or 'clinging on self' In almost all beings there is a belief that they are possessing a self. They believe that self does not die and that self lives forever. They believe that there are many lives. They think they possess their current life and they are living on their self. They believe that when they die their self does not die. Instead the self leaves their dead body or corpse and it is transferred to another being which is their future body and they believe that it is their future self. They believe that in this way 'the self' does not die and the self lives forever. The self leaves the current body when there is no more support that are needed to stand as a life. That self is wandering around their samsara. When such belief is grasped then this belief is called attavaada. When this belief is clinged and firmly attached it is called attavaad- upadaana. This upadaana also creates bhava or existences and then the cycle of birth-death-birth-death will still be ongoing forever as long as these upadaana dhamma are destroyed. How is attavaadupadaana destroyed? It is destroyed by stream-entering path-knowledge or sotapatti magga naana. When this knowledge arises it sees what is real and it cannot see anything that is self. When 'self' cannot be seen there is no reason to arise ditthi or wrong- view. In this way sotapams or stream-enterers have destroyed ditthi or wrong-view with sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path- knowledge. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any further explanation or support will be valuable. 48788 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: letter from Lisa sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > How are things? I'm hoping that Jon and you are having a wow of a > time. (an equanimous wow, of course :-)). I just can't imagine it > would be quite as rewarding to swim in water that hasn't got icecubes > in it :-) .... S: Many thanks for all your good wishes. I assure you we've had our taste of icecube water here too:)....and yes, we've continued to take the plunge each morning with cormorants, pelicans, large silver fish and the occasional other lump of human khandhas....a chance for some quiet 'meditation' before the delightful discussions with others -- today in a sunny spot outside Ken H's immaculate and beautiful home (designed by himself) with all sorts of delicacies to eat as we talked and laughed our way through various topics and reality tests....(Can we really plan for them, Chris?). .... > Please pass on my fond regards to Lisa. I thought her private signing > off post was a classic. To think that so much wisdom and understanding > could have gone unshared. > > Thank you for sharing it ... S: I've drawn her attention to your post. I agree with your comments. She also invited me to share the next one and any others to follow.... From: "Nana" Thank you Sarah and Jon, I grew up with out a Dad or Mom off and on through most of my young life and spent some time in foster homes and if I had my pick my parents I would choose Sarah and Jon. That's how much your dedication to Dhamma has moved me. You are like parents towards the care and support of Dhamma. I am working on a project that involves 2d and 3d art for a science fiction animation and the foundation for the movie is Dhamma and how it can set you free. My work will be in the 2d art work bringing to life the form of the character which then will be used as a model for the animated character. The Plot will be how the characters wake up to reality as it is through going about their daily life which turns out to be a great adventure and a very difficult journey. I will bring what I've learned from my studies. I love Art and Dhamma and I will get to combine the two. I will come re register after I do my satipatthana retreat in Nov. Until then I will send you updates and keep in touch. I will bring to this new art project all the care my teachers like Sunim gave me as he taught me Dhamma through his culture and from my work with the Sayadaws through Goenka's teachers, from Lama Lobsangs Paldens loving care and Dhamma teachings and also from the Abhidhamma people who work so hard here with me to help me understand the division and name of what manifests as realities of the moment. As you can see I am a busy girl with my day job in the law office and my other job and studies. No time now ....but that to shall pass With Metta, Lisa On Saturday, August 13, 2005, at 05:37 AM, Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear Lisa, > > We did copy your letter to the list, thank you. > > You write and reflect beautifully and we loved having your > contributions....we do hope you return again soon....you seemed to fit > in > so very well. thanks for all the surfing metaphors...very clever and > obviously form an expert surfie:)(I may add more on list sometime). > > Best wishes always & Metta, > > Sarah 48789 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:57am Subject: Dhamma friends at Cooran and Sunshine Beach christine_fo... Hello All, On the way up to Cooran on Friday night with our dhamma friend Reg (who, because he lacks a computer, has been made an 'honorary' member of dsg), there was light rain, and we were late starting out. Poor Andrew was patiently waiting up for us in the freezing cold, and so we said a quick goodnight and went straight to our respective sheds to sleep. Me down the paddock and in the shed with a dozen cats, as usual. Steve arrived the next morning and Howard (KenH) drove up shortly after with Sarah and Jon - great to see their smiling faces and waves as they drove in! Great discussions! - dsg-ers DO talk continuously, and often all at the same time. I found that, to my consternation, I was repeating some of the questions about Anatta that I thought had been answered to my satisfaction two or three years ago. I started wondering about "the mystery of the absence of an overriding something that keeps it all together" i.e. if there is just citta, cetasika and rupa - 'what' organises these impermanent ephemeral arising and falling cittas to enable ongoing planning of one's present and future activities? I think what I learned was how extensive is the "capacity" of the accumulations transmitted from one citta to the next ... but I intend to do a lot of reading in the Useful Posts around the topics of "accumulations", "conditions" "natural decisive support" "decisions" "thinking" "concept and reality". Jon - About THAT song .... You and Reg were both right! Bob Marley AND Bobby McFerrin both recorded it - and so did this little bloke :-) http://www.hahahumor.com/funny-songs/funny-songs-view.php?id=95 A great weekend - due to the bountiful hospitality of Sandra and Andrew and Sue and Howard (KenH)- many thanks for your kindnesses and the hard work you so evidently put into preparation that ensured our well-being and comfort. Onya! I did take some photos - including one of the Mods and KenH braving the surf at Sunshine Beach. Now if I can figure out how to operate my digital camera, I'll try to get them out of the memory stick and onto dsg. (Sukin, be prepared! I may need technological first-aid .. this is worse than trying to download fonts). I do hope that the other participants (ahem ... KenH, Andrew, Steve, Jon, Sarah) will write more about their topics of interest. Looking forward to seeing Betty, Sukin, Ivan, and all (and Jon and Sarah again) in Bangkok on Thursday ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 48790 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:45am Subject: Satipatthaana (11) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' There are 32 body parts. So there are 32 contemplations on own body. Sometimes the meditator contemplates that 'naamas' or 'ruupas' are arising when he contemplates on others' body-part. So there are 32 contemplations on others' body-part. Sometimes the meditator contemplates that 'naamas' 'ruupas' are arising when he contemple on 32 body-part of both his own body and others' body. So there are 96 contemplations on 'body part'. Sometimes the meditator contemplates on origination, sometimes on dissolution, and sometimes on both origination and dissolution. So there are 3 extra contemplations on 'body part'. Therefore, there are in total 99 contemplations on 'body part'. There may be many many body parts. Anatomy would say there are many. But they all will fit into any of these 32 body parts. These 32 body parts are not of anatomical classification. Anatomy is not the way of liberation. For liberation, The Buddha exactly preached that there are 32 body parts. 32 body parts are ( first 20 earth-element and last 12 water-element) 20 pathavi-dhaatu or 20 earth-element of 'body part' 1. kesaa (hair) 2. lomaa (body hairs) 3. nakhaa(thumb nail, finger nails & toe nails) 4. dantaa(teeth, canines) 5. taco (skin) 6. ma.msa.m (flesh) 7. hnaaru (ligment) 8. a.t.thi(bones) 9. a.t.thimi~nja.m (bone marrow) 10.vakka.m (kidney) 11. hadaya.m (heart) 12. yakana.m (liver) 13. kilomaka.m (membrane) 14. pihaka.m (spleen) 15. papphaasa.m (lungs) 16. anta.m (intestine) 17. antagu.na.m (mesentery) 18. udariya.m (gorge) 19. kariisa.m (feces) 20. matthalu`nga.m (brain) 12 apo dhaatu or water-element of body part 21. pitta.m (bile) 22. sehma.m (phlegm) 23. pubbo (pus) 24. lohita.m(blood) 25. sedo (sweat) 26. medo (solid fat) 27. assu (tear) 28. vasaa (liquid fat) 29. khe.lo(sliva) 30. si`nghaanikaa (mucus) 31. lasikaa (synivial fluid) 32. mutta.m (urine) Here problems arise when the meditators do not fully know what they have been doing. Mahaasatipa.t.thaana is for contemplation on 'naama' or 'ruupa'. But here these contemplations sound like 'contemplating on names or ideas'. But in real sense these contemplations lead to realization of Dhamma. They are for liberation. At the end of this section called 'pa.tikulamanasikaara pabba', The Buddha preached that 'bhikkhu' contemplates on origination, dissolution, both origination and dissolution. Moreover there are further descriptions that are similar to foregoing section that these contemplations are for growing of 'mindfulness' or 'sati' and growing of 'wisdom' or 'panna'. While contemplating on these 32 body parts, one is not depending on anything and one is temporarily liberated from binding of beautifulness, craving and clinging, ignorance etc etc. This means that this section is also 'vipassanaa' and this section is not for jhaana or absorption even though 'the meditation' itself may give rise to jhaana or absorption. There are 14 contemplations on 'body'. Breathing meditation can give rise to jhaana or appanaa-samaadhi. Meditation on 32-body-part can give rise to jhaana or appanaa-samaadhi. But other 12 sections that is 9 sections on body foulness, (10)section on posture, (11)section on clear understanding (contemplations on 'detail movement), and (12) section on 'body element' cannot give rise to jhaana or appanaa- samaadhi. Here argument points arise. They are 'are these 32 body parts ideas or names or panatti?' The answer is 'the names themselves are yes, pannatti'. But these 32 body parts are not without ground like other names such as 'personal names and proper names, that are purely groundless'. Example is Mr Bush is not a heap of herbal plants. Tom, John, Smith are nothing to do with perception. No one can perceive Tom, John, Smith through 5 physical sense organs. Example one contemplates on 'teeth'. He has seen teeth before. When he perceive the idea through mind door that idea is based on real dhamma, which can be seen through eye-sense-organ, touched through body-sense-organ. When contemplating on 'teeth' what also arises is naama that is cittas that direct to 'idea of teeth'. Those cittas do arise and do fall away. Contemplations on 32 body part help in destruction of 'the perception of beauty, permanancy, satisfactoriness, self' and when there is no more perception of 'subha or beauty' , 'nicca or permanancy', 'sukha or satisfactoriness', and 'atta or self' one is being liberated temporarily from binding of craving and ignorance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48791 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:48am Subject: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (and other friends) - This morning my daughter's plane landed safely in Misawa, Japan. It is a special day for me because I have discovered my hidden wong views. Can anybody help me find the right view in this situation? My only child is now a 31-years old woman. For many years I always instinctively thought of her as "my daughter", wanted her to be near, and wanted to know everything that happened in her life. But now that she is a surgeon, a major in the U.S. Air Force, and soon will be working in Japan, we are no longer close. Suddenly I realize that the attachment to her as my daughter was a wrong view, an extreme view caused by the desire that the little kid I used to know may remain the same (forever). But trying to think "my daughter does not exist", in order to avoid sadness of being parted from her, is another wrong view, another extreme view. So how should I think rightly? Regards, Tep ===== 48792 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. matheesha333 Hi Htoo, Nina and others.. Ht:Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. M: I think the question is what aspect of dhamma are we talking about, when we talk of not being able to control. If we turn our heads it is obvious that we can change what we see. There need not be a self just to be able to do that. Because we make descisions every minute about what we do and a self is not needed for that. So I would say we can change the content of what we experience (obviously). We can influence what arises and passes away (if we close our eyes and focus on what we are hearing for example). Furthermore I would be interested in reading a reference where the buddha says we cannot control dhamma. There maybe aspects/characteristics of the dhamma which we cannot control. Say for example we cannot stop a dhamma from passing away. But a person who attains nibbana has the ability to stop it arising (if only at the end of his life).SO I wonder if it more acurate to say that we cant control some aspects of the dhamma? What do you think? metta Matheesha 48793 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:07am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > I fact Nina's and Phil's wise words: "I think what we don't agree > with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting" are a > kind of skilful means too. > > Metta > > Joop What is the difference between 'rejecting' and 'laying aside'? When you 'lay aside' something aren't you in fact rejecting it? (I'm talking about when disagreeing). This seems like using a euphemism to me. Metta, James 48794 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your interesting question. Blood-related attachment is a good test whether we have won fighting against wrong-view. I will be discussing below as usual. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo (and other friends) - This morning my daughter's plane landed safely in Misawa, Japan. It is a special day for me because I have discovered my hidden wong views. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: At least you recognise that there is wrong-view in you. This is the first step for clearance of wrong-view. When we do not understand 'what is wrong-view', when we do not know 'what is wrong- view' and when we do not recognize (like you here) wrong-view how is it possible to eradicate wrong view. Let alone eradication, how can we thin those wrong-views out or suppressed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Can anybody help me find the right view in this situation? My only child is now a 31-years old woman. For many years I always instinctively thought of her as "my daughter", wanted her to be near, and wanted to know everything that happened in her life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As long as one has been contemplating on kaaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma, attachment, ignorance and wrong view are at least suppressed. It is hard to disregard someone that we dear that we love like our parents and our own children. If any of these members is in a disaster (fame of thiers, properties of theirs , belief of theirs, friends of theirs, life of theirs) there is sufficient reason for sorrow to arise. Lamentation may or may not follow. Mental pain will definitely follow even though there may or may not be despair (total loss of hope leading to death). I have friends. There is a family. They are prosperous. The father was a professor at a department. He has 5 children. All 5 children are doing well. But he renouce everything and now stay in seclusion and does not try to communicate with anyone of the family. He is not abnormal. Here the wrong-view is that 1. 'I' who am a self built up with 'my bones' 'my flesh' 'my blood' 2. has a 'daughter' who is another self made up of 'her bones' 'her flesh' 'her blood'. 3. 31-year-old woman who is in the form so called feminine being 4. my daughter (assuming self) 5. wanted her to be near (craving on that self) 6. wanted to know everything that happens in her life (craving in self and related matters) Here 'I' who is Tep is not wrong view. Because you can perceive your self as an individual. That is why messages from you (Tep) are arising here and now. But true sense is that you only know that true sense that there is no 'self' that is 'Tep'. Tep does exist. But 'Tep' does not exist at all. That is you cannot perceive 'Tep' through your eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. Please look at the mirror in front of you. There is an image in the mirror that represents you 'Tep'. But you are actually not perceiving any 'Tep' but the form (ruupa) or vanna (colours of different brightness) are perceived. Say a word yourself. You can hear your voice. But you are not perceiving any 'Tep' at all. Again 'your voice' is not 'Tep' or 'Tep voice'. It is just a sound. That sound derives from consciousness-derived movement at larynx. That is it is a cittaja ruupa or consciousness-born sound. To repeat You (Tep) exist. But 'Tep' does not exist. If exists, that Tep would have been perceived through 5 senses. The 6th sense or mind object is just representation of these 5 objects and their implication and further constructions. Your daughter who is 31-year-old woman exists. That is why she landed in Japan. But what does not really exist are 'you' 'Tep' 'daughter' 'woman' etc etc. We use these terms for understanding. This is something like the word 'Dady' used by an adopted child, who addresses his adopted blood-unrelated father. When he was young he called 'Dady'. But when he grew up he knew that his current father is not his own-father or blood-related father. But he still calls him 'Dady'. When we hear his calling to his adopted father as 'Dady', this does not mean he does not know his adopted father is not his Dady. Existing things exist. But those who have a light change the view completely even though their mind still accept these existing things as still existing. How they live? They live non-attaching to them because they are not real in 'ULTIMATE SENSE'. This non-attachment and persisting of wisdom there is no clinging and so there is no existence related to clinging. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: But now that she is a surgeon, a major in the U.S. Air Force, and soon will be working in Japan, we are no longer close. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here you have a light that there is 'separation'. This is 'piyehi vippayogo dukkho'. This is suffering. You seems to see this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Suddenly I realize that the attachment to her as my daughter was a wrong view, an extreme view caused by the desire that the little kid I used to know may remain the same (forever). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Accepting her as you daughter at this time is not a wrong view. But attachment to her is related to wrong-view. Because you have that attachment because you think there is a 'self' that is your daughter. Your daughter does exist. But there is no self in you or in me or in yourt daughter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: But trying to think "my daughter does not exist", in order to avoid sadness of being parted from her, is another wrong view, another extreme view. So how should I think rightly? Regards, Tep ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you think in that way 'my daughter does not exist', this is denial. This is psychological response to avoid sadness of separation. That is avoidance of suffering of separation. Examples can be heard 'when a person dies and his beloved relative denies that ''O! He is not dead yet. He is there in my mind. No. He is not dead. He is there. He is still alive. This is denial. This cannot be right view. The idea of 'my daughter does not exist' is not a right view. It is a wrong view and even it is an extreme view something like denial of psychological reaction. There are 4 views that bind us not to depart from existences. They are 1. beautifulness (subha) 2. permanence (nicca) 3. satisfactoriness(sukha) 4. self (atta) These 4 views are attacked with 4 satipatthaana. I have posted upto 12 messages of 'Satipatthaana' how to dwell perceiving realities. 'As soon as 'the thought of my daughter is in Japan and away from me' arises just to note that there arise such and such mind. Then this is perceiving of own mind or cittaanupassanaa. There may or may not be mental pain. Just note that pain. That is there is 'missing' in my heart, it is painful and it is a mental pain and it is domanassa. It is not me, not I, not mine. You (Tep) exist. America exists. Japan exists. Your daughter exists. But they are not ULTIMATE REALITIES. They cannot be perceived through '5 senses' and then 'through realetd 6th sense'. Balanced view will help you happy. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 48795 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. htootintnaing Matheesha wrote: Hi Htoo, Nina and others.. Ht:Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. M: I think the question is what aspect of dhamma are we talking about, when we talk of not being able to control. If we turn our heads it is obvious that we can change what we see. There need not be a self just to be able to do that. Because we make descisions every minute about what we do and a self is not needed for that. So I would say we can change the content of what we experience (obviously). We can influence what arises and passes away (if we close our eyes and focus on what we are hearing for example). Furthermore I would be interested in reading a reference where the buddha says we cannot control dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: There maybe aspects/characteristics of the dhamma which we cannot control. Say for example we cannot stop a dhamma from passing away. But a person who attains nibbana has the ability to stop it arising (if only at the end of his life).SO I wonder if it more acurate to say that we cant control some aspects of the dhamma? What do you think? metta Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. This is not like that. When we control our mind not to violate any laws, rules, regulations, principles, moral these are just describing for understanding. The Buddha preached 'Ruupam bhikkhave aniccaa' 'Ruupam bhikkhave dukkhaa' 'Ruupam bhikkhave anattaa' 'Vedanaa bhikkhu aniccaa' 'Vedanaa bhikkhu dukkhaa' 'Vedanaa bhikkhu anatta' and so on. All 5 khandhaa are 'aniccaa'. All 5 khandhaa are 'dukkhaa'. All 5 khandhaa are 'anattaa' With Metta, Htoo Naing 48796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - I like your directed question : "SO I wonder if it more acurate to say that we can't control some aspects of the dhamma?" In a way there is a degree of "control" imbedded in that question. Do you agree with me that everything is a dhamma, because all things are conditioned by something (except Nibbana, of course). I think it follows that by being wise at the supporting factors (paccaya) we can control almost anything, but not perfectly because of the impermanent characteristic of conditioned dhamma. If we can't control things, there would not be cars running on the roads, no airplanes flying in the sky, etc. But cars may stop running and planes may fall down from the sky. In the Anattalakkhana Sutta the Buddha asked if it was right to "regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'? " Some confused readers interpret this to mean that conditioned dhammas are not controllable because they are not self. And that is a wrong interpretation (obviously). With due respect, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Htoo, Nina and others.. > > Ht:Again this does not mean 'dhamma' can be controlled. > > M: I think the question is what aspect of dhamma are we talking > about, when we talk of not being able to control. If we turn our > heads it is obvious that we can change what we see. There need not be a self just to be able to do that. Because we make descisions every minute about what we do and a self is not needed for that. > > So I would say we can change the content of what we experience > (obviously). We can influence what arises and passes away (if we > close our eyes and focus on what we are hearing for example). > > Furthermore I would be interested in reading a reference where the > buddha says we cannot control dhamma. > > There maybe aspects/characteristics of the dhamma which we cannot control. Say for example we cannot stop a dhamma from passing away. > But a person who attains nibbana has the ability to stop it arising > (if only at the end of his life).SO I wonder if it more acurate to > say that we cant control some aspects of the dhamma? > > What do you think? > > > metta > > Matheesha 48797 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] commentaries. upasaka_howard Hi, Dan (and Nina, and Phil, and all) - In a message dated 8/14/05 2:46:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: And regarding your comment: "I like what Phil said:< I think what we don't agree with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting. How can you claim to have better understanding that Buddhaghosa? >" That's certainly my approach -- set aside parts of the commentaries (and other teachings as well, but to a lesser extent). No need to reject and no need to blindly accept and parrot. =========================== Dan, I very much like what you had to say in this post. I'm addressing myself, however, just to this little piece I've quoted here. There were and are many, many great, even brilliant, philosophers, religious originators, and religious teachers. One might ask: "How can you claim to have better understanding than ...," and we can then name, in scrambled order, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Solomon (who wrote Ecclesiastes), Moses, Jesus of Nazareth, Rabbi Hillel, Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov (the founder of Chassidism), Lao Tse, Candrakiirti, Nagarjuna, ... . The list near endless. What do we depend on? Authority? The Buddha said NOT to depend on that! I like very much your last sentence quoted here, Dan: "No need to reject and no need to blindly accept and parrot." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 479 ) nilovg Dear Htoo, I like it that you connect ditthi with D.O. Nina. op 13-08-2005 10:46 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > This clinging or upadaana is called ditthupadaana because there is > ditthi cetasika associated with these 4 cittas. In Dependent > Origination or paticca-samuppaada tanha causes arising of upadaana. > Here it is ditthupadaana. This ditthupadaana creates bhavo or > existence. 48799 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you for conditioning the suta-maya-panna in me: "Balanced view will help you (be) happy", i.e. finding a middle path that avoids the two extremes. Htoo: >There are 4 views that bind us not to depart from existences. They are 1. beautifulness (subha) 2. permanence (nicca) 3. satisfactoriness(sukha) 4. self (atta) >These 4 views are attacked with 4 satipatthaana. I have posted upto 12 messages of 'Satipatthaana' how to dwell perceiving realities. Tep: Indeed, the key is in learning to "dwell perceiving realities" as conditioned dhamma - not mine, not I, not my self. Thanks for the nice and prompt reply, Htoo. Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your interesting question. Blood-related attachment is a > good test whether we have won fighting against wrong-view. > > I will be discussing below as usual. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing