49600 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Vism.XIV,189 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 189. (c) 'According to period': any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called 'present'. Previous to that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'. 49601 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 0:58am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Questions i Why is lobha-múla-citta dangerous, even when it does not have the intensity to motivate bad deeds? ii Visible object is what appears through the eyes, it is not a “thing”. Can attachment to visible object arise during the eye-door process? iii Even the sotåpanna who has realized that phenomena are impermanent and non-self has attachment to pleasant things. How is that possible? iv Is bhava-ta'nhå, craving for becoming, always accompanied by wrong view? v Who has eradicated all forms of bhava-ta'nhå? vi Can the sotåpanna (streamwinner) have vibhava-ta'nhå, clinging to non-existence? vii Can the anågåmí (non-returner) have clinging to seeing? viii Can the anågåmí have attachment to jhåna? ix Is it possible to have attachment when we help someone else? x Can attachment to sati be a hindrance to the development of the eightfold Path? xi Attachment to music is akusala. Monks are not allowed to apply themselves to music. Should even laypeople give up music in order to develop vipassanå? xii Can attachment be the object of mindfulness? ***** [Attachment (lobha) finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 49602 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 10:42pm Subject: How to Enter ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Selfless Release is Disengaged & Detached Freedom! One can cut off the 5 lower fetters and enter the Stream to Nibbana by resolving on this with unwavering determination: What is present, what has come to into being, all that I leave... 'If it is neither 'Me' nor 'Mine' now, neither will it be 'Me' nor 'Mine' in any future. All this is not I, not what I am, not my self!' There is no reason to fear a peace, that is not frightening since: All form is impermanent, painful, selfless, dependent & vanishing. All feeling is transient, hurting, egoless, conditional and fading. All perception is passing, distress, not me, contingent & leaving. All construction is temporary, tender, not mine, reliant & all lost. All consciousness is brief, misery, not I, contingent & evaporating. So nothing is lost al all by leaving lust for form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness! When this desire, this craving & urge for these 5 elements, is all eliminated, then there remains no object, no foundation, no basis for the establishing of any consciousness...!!! When that momentary consciousness is thus unestablished, without any object, disengaged, neither generating, nor proliferating, nor propagating anything, it is released, detaching by non-construction, non-display, non-projection, and non-manifesting stilled quietness... Being thus liberated from its usual tasks consciousness stabilizes, and settles. When consciousness becomes steady in the ease of peace, it also becomes quite content... When content, it is utterly unagitated! Being thus imperturbable, one attains Nibbana right there and then and instantly understands: Birth is ended, this Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond this ... !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 55-58 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49603 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 3:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 521 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bojjhanga sangaha there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) There are 4 satipatthaanas or 4 frames of reference of mindfulness or there are 4 contemplations. They are 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'body-contemplation'(261) 2. vedanaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'feeling-contemplation' (30) 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'consciousness-contemplation'(51) 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'dhamma-contemplation' (108) 1. 261 kaayanupassanaa and 30 vedanaanupassanaa have been discussed in the previous post. There are further contemplations on 'cittaanupassanaa' and 'dhammanupassanaa'. 3. 51 contemplations on consciousness or 51 cittaanupassanaa There are 16 contemplations on 16 different mental states of individual concerned, and 16 contemplations on mental states of others and 16 contemplations on mental states of both 'own' and others' mental states. So there are 48 cittaanupassanaas or 48 contemplations on consciousness. There are 3 extra contemplations on consciousness. They are contemplations on origination, contemplation on dissolution, and contemplation on both origination and dissolution. So there are 51 contemplations on consciousness or cittaanupassanaa. 1. contemplation on 'this is consciousness with lust' 2. contemplation on 'this is consciousness without lust' 3. contemplation on 'this is consciousness with aversion' 4. contemplation on 'this is consciousness without aversion' 5. contemplation on 'this is consciousness with ignorance' 6. contemplation on 'this is consciousness without ignorance' 7. contemplation on 'this is consciousness with sloth & torpor' 8. contemplation on 'this is consciousness that are wandering & upset' 9. contemplation on 'this is jhaana consciousness' 10.contemplation on 'this is non-jhana consciousness' 11.contemplation on 'this is inferior consciousness' 12.contemplation on 'this is superior consciousness' 13.contemplation on 'this is concentrated consciousness' 14.contemplation on 'this is non-concentrated consciousness' 15.contemplation on 'this is liberated consciousness[temporary/perma] 16.contemplation on 'this is non-liberated consciousness These are repeated on 16 for other people and 16 for both own consciousness and other people's consciousness. Again it is not true to 'cite in the mind these sentences'. What have to do is when a mental state with lust arises note that there arise 'a consciousness with lust'. Examples are when beginner meditators are practising vipassanaa sometimes they may distracted from their object of attention and they follow that distractions. There are distractions like 'sound' 'sight' 'smell'. Sound distractions: While meditating there can arise sounds of different tones, different qualities, different loudness. Actually these are just sounds and ruupa. But because of immaturity, the attention is lost at original object of meditation and the mind follows that sound and then slips into deeper thoughts as usual. Because the mind is originally deluded and ramified with craving. Different sounds are followed and then thinking on that sound happens. This again leads to further fantasy thinking like 'I have heard similar sounds in my past. That sound was when I was 16 and it was very attractive. At that time I was lurking beautiful woman. Oh well, I remember the girl at that time. Oh! there was a fighting. And many endless thinking. At a time a mind arises and remember that 'O my mind has been distracted'. At that particular time, just note 'these are consciousness with lust'. In the whole package of thought there may be many consciousness like consciousness with lust, consciousness with aversion, consciousness with ignorance, consciousness with sloth & torpor, and so on. But when that distracted mind is mainly on lust or sensuous things then it is noted as 'consciousness with lust' has arisen. This is 'real naama'. One does not need to recite by heart all these descriptions and these descriptions are for samples. There are 16 different states of mind. When each arises and one remembers to note it, just to note that there has arisen such mental state. When this practice of contemplations on 'own mind state' has become very mature and proficient then the meditator may become happy to perceive that such and such mental states may be arising in others. So there are 32 contemplations. And at a time he may be perceiving that such and such mental state arise both in 'own mind' and in 'others' mind'. So there are 48 contemplations. These mental states arise not without any causes or origination. So the meditator also notes on origination and this is an extra contemplation on consciousness. Sometimes he contemplates on dissolution and sometimes on both origination and dissolution. So there are 51 contemplations on consciousness. Whatever they are, all these contemplations are related to mindfulness or sati and because of this they are named as 'satipatthaana'. In all 4 satipatthaanas, sati is the chief dhamma. This does not mean 'pannaa' is not a chief. But here the theme is for sati cetasika. So these 4 satis are all about 4 satipatthaanas of 'Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma'. 108 dhammaanupassanaa or 108 contemplations on Dhamma will be discussed in the next post. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49604 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_2) htootintnaing Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - Thank you for accepting the one-question idea and for your suggestion that has turned it into a working solution. Now, let me comment on your answer to Question_1. In summary, you stated that there are 15 benefits (to the definition of the six feelings and the detail of the associated events); they are the insights that lead to the cessation of dukkha. With all due respect, I disagree with you. So, it is necessary that I ask another question ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before we move to question number 2, I have to say i just gave samples. There are more than 15. Please re-read the post again. And I did not list as 6. But you picked it as 6. I wrote as 9. I wrote there are 30 contemplations on feeling. 9 for own feelings, 9 for others, 9 for both own and others. So there are 27 and there are 3 extra contemplations. They are 1. on origination, 2. dissolution, 3. both origination & dissolution. Therefore apparently I wrote there are 9 feelings. OK? Now we move to another question. That is question number 2. So I change the heading of the message as (--Discussion_2). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Question 2 : Isn't that claiming too much, since you only give six feeling definitions along with a listing of the nine events? Definitions and listing or labelling are book knowledge at best. Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already told that there are 9 feelings. Now in Dhamma Thread which reaches (550) I am discussing on feeling. There are more than what we discussed here in this recent One_Question_Approach. It is not too much. It is not just bookish. Can you not see these feeling when you sit in and doing standing meditation or walking meditation? If not, you have not achieved anything yet, let alone understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49605 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_2) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Tep wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Thank you for accepting the one-question idea and for your > suggestion that has turned it into a working solution. > > Now, let me comment on your answer to Question_1. > > In summary, you stated that there are 15 benefits (to the definition > of the six feelings and the detail of the associated events); they > are the insights that lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > With all due respect, I disagree with you. So, it is necessary that I > ask another question ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Apology. I confused that you are talking on satipatthaana series, where I wrote there are 9 feelings. But when I check this heading I realized that 'this new post', which is one of Dhamma Thread in advance, is about vedanakkhandhaa. I am writing on different stocks of dhamma 1) 9 akusala stocks 2) 7 peer-dhamma stocks 3) 7 stocks of companions of enlightenment (37 dhamma) 4) 5 general stocks 5 stocks are 1. khandhaa 2. upadaanakkhandhaa 3. aayatana 4. dhaatu 5. saccaa I am discussing on 1. khandhaa and now Dhamma Thread is on Sanna. Vedanaa has been discussed. Your question 1 was on that 6 feelings. Please re-read that again. I just said they are depending on the origins. But the benefits will be the same. Because they are dhamma. When you know the source then you can block the fire. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Sorry for confusion. 49606 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_2) buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Tep, > > Apology. I confused that you are talking on satipatthaana series, > where I wrote there are 9 feelings. But when I check this heading > I realized that 'this new post', which is one of Dhamma Thread in > advance, is about vedanakkhandhaa. > It was alright. I am going to reply to the other post after this. Kind regards, Tep ============= 49607 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_2) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - This message continues the discussion initiated by Question_2. > Question 2 : > > Isn't that claiming too much, since you only give six feeling > definitions along with a listing of the nine events? Definitions and > listing or labelling are book knowledge at best. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I have already told that there are 9 feelings. Now in Dhamma Thread > which reaches (550) I am discussing on feeling. There are more than > what we discussed here in this recent One_Question_Approach. > > It is not too much. It is not just bookish. Can you not see these > feeling when you sit in and doing standing meditation or walking > meditation? > > If not, you have not achieved anything yet, let alone understanding > of anicca, dukkha, anatta. > Tep: The "seeing" of a feeling's arising-and-passing-away phenomena is quite fifferent from the reading, writing, and discussing the book-knowledge of feelings like you have done. Just like the right view situation, there are the lower level and a higher one. Bhikkhu Bodhi: "This right view that penetrates the Four Noble Truths comes at the end of the path, not at the beginning. We have to start with the right view conforming to the truths, acquired through learning and fortified through reflection. This view inspires us to take up the practice, to embark on the threefold training in moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom. When the training matures, the eye of wisdom opens by itself, penetrating the truths and freeing the mind from bondage." [from "The Noble Eightfold Path" ] Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: 49608 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi RobertK, > Dear Swee Boon, > how did I cast doubts on Htoo's faith in the Buddha's word? > Robertk Suppose Htoo is a faith follower of the Dhamma, and he has confidence in the Buddha's message that practising according to the Satipatthaana Sutta correctly for seven years would result in non-return or unbinding. Suppose Htoo after practising for seven years did not achieve any supramundane results. Suppose RobertK came along and tell Htoo: Htoo, did you achieve any supramundane results after these seven years? My guess is that you probably didn't. Suppose Htoo was upset about RobertK's comments, and he begins to doubt the truthfulness of the Satipatthaana Sutta. Gradually, he begins to doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Now, is this a wise action on the part of RobertK to put out such a comment when it might prompt the arising of doubts in another's mind? > p.s I think this is my usual style. > " I > was mostly just expressing great disappointment in Robert K. > resorting to > straw man arguments and dogmatism as his support." > and > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49228 > . ""But at least show some > > courtesy and abstain from using pejorative terms and building > > silly straw man arguments."" If this is really your usual style, then I must say I have known a different RobertK all along. Regards, Swee Boon 49609 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta,... / What is Understanding? kenhowardau Hi Tep, ---------- T: > By showing your willingness to continue with patience and politeness, you have already earned my sincere respect -- the first requirement for making a real dhamma friend. But, like Htoo once observed, it isn't easy to find a real dhamma friend even among the DSG members. ---------- Thanks for the compliment, Tep - the same to you. I have a tape in which K Sujin was asked about the 'good Dhamma friend': she says our emphasis should be on being one, rather than on finding one. :-) ------------------ Tep: > Please, let us focus on the existing discussion that already has several confusing terms I am trying to sort out. Leave the "amoha" issue alone for a while, okay? ------------------ Okay. -------------------------- <. . .> Tep: > Thank you for the not-convincing definition of 'bhavana' as "real, momentarily arising, meditation". Bhavana to me means simply "samatha-vipassana meditation", or developing tranquillity and insight. Anapanasati is a bhavana. -------------------------- In the Buddha's day (and for a few centuries after) a small elite of ariyans attained enlightenment by means of anapanasati. Those days are long gone, however. -------------------------------------------- <. . .> T: > before attaining the "supramundane right understanding" all the 8 path factors must be fulfilled first. --------------------------------------------- You have the idea that the two extra path factors, right knowledge and right freedom, that occur exclusively at Arahantship, are what is referred to as 'supramundane right understanding.' I think that might be true to an extent. (I seem to recall those factors are additional aspects of samma-ditthi that emerge only at that one, unique, moment.) But supramundane right understanding occurs in all stages of Eightfold Path-consciousness. Actually, all eight Path Factors, at all stages of enlightenment, are supramundane. They have the unique function of permanently destroying kilesas. Supramundane right effort is four efforts in one. Similarly, supramundane right speech, right action and right livelihood occur simultaneously. These supernatural things cannot happen in mundane consciousness. Therefore, they are called supramundane. ------------------ T: > What do you think of the following Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on the "supramundane right view"? Do other path factors follow on from it, or does it arise simultaneously with the other 7 factors (samma- sankappa through samma-samadhi)? What about the three sikkhas? BB: "This right view that penetrates the Four Noble Truths comes at the end of the path, not at the beginning. We have to start with the right view conforming to the truths, acquired through learning and fortified through reflection. This view inspires us to take up the practice, to embark on the threefold training in moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom. When the training matures, the eye of wisdom opens by itself, penetrating the truths and freeing the mind from bondage." [from "The Noble Eightfold Path"] ------------------- That is what I have been saying all along: there is mundane right understanding at the preliminary levels, and there is supramundane right understanding at the Eightfold Path level (from Stream entry to Arahantship). ---------------------------- Tep: > I presented a preferred definition of right understanding in my previous post, but you omitted it. Here it is again presented (from message # 49491): II. AN IX.44 Pannavimutti Sutta "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." ------------------------------- That sounds like 'vipassana in tandem with jhana' which, as I was saying, is the way the Buddha and his elite disciples attained. But it is not possible in the current era. ------------------------------------------------- Tep: > Panna or "understanding" by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and "discernment" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu are the same. The above understanding that is connected to 'vimutti' should indeed be called "right understanding" -------------------------------------------------- Maybe so, but so too should all forms of amoha cetasika. Oops, sorry; "samma-ditthi!" :-) Thank you for repeating your understanding of anatta. I am sure I have read it before, but it is easy to forget who said what. I am pleased to know that you don't have an unspoken belief in eternal existence - as do certain other "Buddhists." We have some basic disagreements in the area of 'concepts and realities:' ----------------- Tep: Electrons and protons are real -- go ask the physicists, electrical engineers, and technicians ----------------- That is just the point: we are not asking physicists and engineers, we are asking the Buddha. They all give correct answers in their own ways, but only the way of the Buddha leads to release from dukkha. ---------------------------- <. . .> T: > Wood and wood-chopper are real; you see them and the action and you know they are impermanent and leading to dukkha when you don't know them the way they really are. ----------------------------- No, they are not real and they are not impermanent (within the meaning of anicca). The Buddha elucidated the five khandhas - he did not elucidate electrons, protons, wood chopping or woodchoppers. In the Buddha's Dhamma, only the five khandhas and Nibbana are real. BTW, the five khandhas are dukkha regardless of whether they are (or are not) seen the way they really are. ------------------ T: > Because when you grasp to them (rupa and nama) as 'mine, me, my self ' then you cannot abandon personality views or conceit (mana). Illusion or not is the matter of wrong or right view. ------------------- No, illusion (concept, pannatti) and non-illusion (paramattha dhamma) are not matters of wrong view and right view. An Ariyan (who has no wrong view) can be aware of wood and woodchoppers etc., and those things remain illusory. An worldling experiences visible object, audible object etc., with with wrong view, and they are nonetheless real. ---------------------------------- <. . .> T: > The anatta dhamma as stated in the Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) is beyond the Sotapanna's right view that eliminates the 20 sakkayaditthi. Self clinging (atta-vadupadana), or clinging to the personality belief, based on the five heaps, is the same as the 20 sakkayaditthi. Penetration of anatta is only through the Arahant's panna. No, I don't think that "anatta is just a technique for calming the mind". My explanation above is clear enough, isn't it? ------------------------------------- I am glad to see the first part, but no, your explanation is not clear enough. All students of the true Dhamma have an intellectual understanding of the characteristic, anatta. Direct understanding and full penetration of that characteristic occur in the advanced stages of mundane insight - just before Magga-citta. Therefore they are common to some very advanced worldlings and to all Ariyans - not just to Arahants. Corrections welcome. Ken H 49610 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 6:28am Subject: Han Tun's Pali for the Breathing Treatise Para 242 buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Below is a forwarded message from Han Tun: it shows the original Pali text for BT paragraph 242. Now you have the wole sentences instead of inserted words here and there like before. Regards, Tep ========== 242. When he adverts, he is acquainted with those bodies (aavajjato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he knows, ... (pajaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he sees, ... (passato te kaayaa patividitaahonti). When he reviews, ... (paccavekkhato te kaayaapatividitaa honti). .........,(cittam adhitthahato te kaayaa patividitaahonti). ........,(saddhaaya adhimuccato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). ..........,(viiriyam pagganhato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he establishes (founds) mindfulness, ... (satim upatthaapayato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he concentrates, … (cittam samaadahato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he understands with understanding, ... (pannaayapajaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he directly knows what is to be directly known,... (abhinneyyam abhijaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he understands what is to be understood, ... (parinneyyam parijaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he abandons what is to be abandoned, ... (pahaatabbam pajahato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he develops what is to be developed, ... (bhaavetabbam bhaavayato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with those bodies (sacchikaatabbam sacchikaroto te kaayaa patividitaa honti). That is how those bodies are experienced. [English translations are missing in three places for their corresponding Pali words, which I showed by dots.] ------------------------------------------- 49612 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta,... / What is Understanding? buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken - I appreciate your much clearer communication this time. Although there are fundamentally different belief and understanding between us, I consider the discussion as accomplishing its main purpose (which is to remove misunderstandings or confusions). As for this post I only want to respond to your satements below. >Ken H. " Direct understanding and full penetration of that >characteristic occur in the advanced stages of mundane insight - >just before Magga-citta. Therefore they are common to some very >advanced worldlings and to all Ariyans - not just to Arahants. > Tep: Since Acariya Buddhaghosa's words on this matter are more authoritative than either one of us, please read the following (and decide for yourself). 'The purifying of one's own mind that is the Buddhas' dispensation' (DHP 183), and because understanding is its culmination, understanding is the end of the dispensation. Vism. I, 10. "And likewise the reason for the states of stream-entry and once-return is shown by virtue; that for the state of non-return, by concentration; that for Arahantship by understanding". Vism. I, 14. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > I am glad to see the first part, but no, your explanation is not > clear enough. All students of the true Dhamma have an intellectual > understanding of the characteristic, anatta. Direct understanding and > full penetration of that characteristic occur in the advanced stages > of mundane insight - just before Magga-citta. Therefore they are > common to some very advanced worldlings and to all Ariyans - not just > to Arahants. > > Corrections welcome. > > Ken H 49613 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to Enter ... ??? upasaka_howard Dear Bhante (Venerable Samahita) - Thank you for the following translation. I love this sutta, and the freshness of your formulation. With metta, Howard -----Original Message----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: 1.6A ; 1.1A Sent: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:42:04 +0600 Subject: [dsg] How to Enter ... ??? Friends: Selfless Release is Disengaged & Detached Freedom! One can cut off the 5 lower fetters and enter the Stream to Nibbana by resolving on this with unwavering determination: What is present, what has come to into being, all that I leave... 'If it is neither 'Me' nor 'Mine' now, neither will it be 'Me' nor 'Mine' in any future. All this is not I, not what I am, not my self!' There is no reason to fear a peace, that is not frightening since: All form is impermanent, painful, selfless, dependent & vanishing. All feeling is transient, hurting, egoless, conditional and fading. All perception is passing, distress, not me, contingent & leaving. All construction is temporary, tender, not mine, reliant & all lost. All consciousness is brief, misery, not I, contingent & evaporating. So nothing is lost al all by leaving lust for form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness! When this desire, this craving & urge for these 5 elements, is all eliminated, then there remains no object, no foundation, no basis for the establishing of any consciousness...!!! When that momentary consciousness is thus unestablished, without any object, disengaged, neither generating, nor proliferating, nor propagating anything, it is released, detaching by non-construction, non-display, non-projection, and non-manifesting stilled quietness... Being thus liberated from its usual tasks consciousness stabilizes, and settles. When consciousness becomes steady in the ease of peace, it also becomes quite content... When content, it is utterly unagitated! Being thus imperturbable, one attains Nibbana right there and then and instantly understands: Birth is ended, this Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond this ... !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 55-58 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 7:55am Subject: FW: Perfections nilovg ---------- Van: Tom Westheimer Datum: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:04:04 -0400 Aan: Nina van Gorkom Onderwerp: Perfections for your eyes / ears only - click on the link below http://westheimers.net/dsg/perfections/ 49615 From: nina Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 10:36am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear friends, **** Nina. 49616 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? mlnease Hi Nina, Yet another cherished delusion ruined by those tiresome texts. Oh well! Thanks Again, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? > Hi Mike, > > op 02-09-2005 00:10 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > I'm looking for a different meaning of 'attachment'. I'm >> not finding it. I found this which disagrees with me I think: >> >> "In the Paa.li four kinds of clinging have been handed down, namely, >> sense-desire clinging, wrong-view clinging, rites-and-rituals clinging >> and >> self-theory clinging." >> >> Dispeller 844 >> >> Would all the above would necessarily arise with lobha-mula citta? Or >> might >> the second, third and/or fourth arise with moha-muula citta but not >> lobha? > ------ > N: All with lobha-muulacitta, but there are eight types: four with ditthi, > wrong view, and four without it. The last three arise with the > lobha-mulacitta with wrong view, di.t.thigata sampayutta. > Nina. 49617 From: "frank" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 11:55am Subject: dhamma soup for true happiness dhamma_service Sometimes, when Luang Pu noticed that the people who came to practice with him were still uncommitted, still pining after the happiness and enjoyment of purely worldly things to the point where they weren't ready to let them go and practice the Dhamma, he'd give them a teaching to think about so as to see things clearly for what they are: "I ask you all to examine happiness, to see exactly where was the point of greatest happiness in your life. When you really look at it, you'll see that it's just that - nothing more than anything else you've ever experienced. Why wasn't it more than that? Because the world has nothing more than that. That's all it has to offer - over and over again, nothing more than that at all. Just birth, aging, illness, and death, over and over again. There's got to be a happiness more extraordinary than that, more excellent than that, safer than that. This is why the noble ones sacrifice limited happiness in search of the happiness that comes from stilling the body, stilling the mind, stilling the defilements. That's the happiness that's safe, to which nothing else can compare." 49618 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for true happiness buddhistmedi... Hi, Frank - I know exactly what Luangpu said about seeking the better kind of happiness that is much more than the worldly ones. > "I ask you all to examine happiness, to see exactly where was the point of greatest happiness in your life. When you really look at it, you'll see that it's just that - nothing more than anything else you've ever experienced. > Why wasn't it more than that? Because the world has nothing more than that. > That's all it has to offer - over and over again, nothing more than that at all. Just birth, aging, illness, and death, over and over again. There's got to be a happiness more extraordinary than that, more excellent than that, safer than that. This is why the noble ones sacrifice limited happiness in search of the happiness that comes from stilling the body, stilling the mind, stilling the defilements. That's the happiness that's safe, to which nothing else can compare." > Tep: But I don't know how to explain clearly to most people who still drink, go to parties, make love, and own expensive stuffs. They never want to let go of any fun thing in order to seek the happiness that comes from the "stilling of defilements". What would be your way to tell them about the truth in Luangpu's teaching above? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > Sometimes, when Luang Pu noticed that the people who came to practice with him were still uncommitted, still pining after the happiness and enjoyment of purely worldly things to the point where they weren't ready to let them go and practice the Dhamma, he'd give them a teaching to think about so as to see things clearly for what they are: > (snipped) > 49619 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 1:54pm Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Joop, It is nice to correspond with you- especially since I am almost always writing to Sarah! ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > >... > > Hallo James, Sarah, all > > James: That sutta [Anattalakkhana Sutta? (Discourse on Not-self')] > was addressed to monastics who had practiced renunciation and mental > cultivation. Lay folk, like you, me and > Amr, cannot possibly have a real understanding of non-self because > our lifestyle doesn't foster such an understanding. The Buddha > refused to teach non-self (anatta) to lay people due to the > confusion it would create. > > Joop: Are you serious, my Sutta-knowledge is not so big but I cannot > imagine the Buddha refused this. James: I looked a bit for the sutta and I cannot find it right off the bat. Sorry. But I did find this nice reference to the sutta I was referring to in this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside. To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers." From my memory, I believe it was a layperson who asked the Buddha this question in such a way. I would imagine that if a bhikkhu asked the same question he would have gotten a different answer, rather than silence, but maybe not. > Is in this way the difference between living in a monastery and > living elsewere in society not exaggerated? That difference is not > absolute, but relative (gradual) > Monastics is a cultural invention, so the difference is not ultimate > reality! James: Now, I'm not sure, but it sounds like to me that you are saying monastics and laypeople live the same type of lifestyle. That is entirely not true! Laypeople bask in sensual pleasures the live long day while monastics avoid all sensual pleasures (or are supposed to anyway). Really, there is no comparison. > > More general: is "real understanding of non-self" really so extremely > difficult that nowadays (nearly) nobody can realize it? I'm more > optimistic than that. James: It is good that you are optimistic. That is a value I honor. However, I don't know many people who really understand anatta. I have met many monks and they don't really understand it. Howard has experienced it once, he has said, but that experience was temporary. There was a time when I focused almost exclusively on understanding anatta and I started to have frightening visions of Mara visitations. The only person I know who claims to understand anatta is Sarah in this group. Even Phil, who is a close second, admits that his understanding may be superficial. So, if you count yourself with Sarah then you two are the only ones I know who really understand anatta. I guess you two don't really exist now! ;-)) Or more specific and repeating myself: anatta > is especially difficult for those who are fighting their strong ego; > anicca is especially difficult for those who have a strong > ontological need (like me). James: Anatta is difficult to comprehend because we all have the desire to exist. No one wants to die; we all want to exist. It is this desire for existence which causes us to exist. When the desire is gone, then the impetus for existence is gone. Maybe you can describe this as ego, but I think of ego as more complicated than the desire for existence. > > Metta > > Joop Metta, James 49620 From: "colette" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 Hi Tep, <...> You, sir, have sent me for a loop on this one with the last part of your post. I thought I was a pretty good Barnstormer and a wingwalker but you're doing a little bit of acrobatics yourself. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Colette: "and if I---being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if ther is > no self--were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered > Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I > used to have now not exist?" > > NO SELF. > > Tep: The self (atta) view is an extreme one, and the no self view is > another extreme. The middle-path avoids both. colette: The middle-path in no way even attempts to reconcile each polarization to manifest the eddy, static middle position. Again, we can be working from different schools of buddhist philosophy. Concerning your interest in my study of Bhavaviveka, then, you must know of his hand in the Madhyamika school of thought and his attempted translation of Nagarjuna. Shall we parley? ;)) toodles, colette > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" > wrote: > > > > This is as good a place as any to bring into debate my meditations. > > It took me several months to read a simple paper > > called "Bhavaviveka's Svatantra-anumana and Its Soteriological > > Implications" and that was just to get through it. I'll read it again > > some time in the future. But this shows you that I do have difficulty > > reading and interpreting things. > > 49621 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 4:13pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. philofillet Hi Nina and all > During the time when > someone is thinking that he is too slow to realize the falling away of > realities, realities still arise again and fall away again. This is a good reminder. I cling to "moha" at times, to the concept of moha, taking a kind of satisfaction in how much moha there is, how little understanding, as a confirmation of the Buddha's wisdom, so much greater than ours. But that's just more thinking, more clinging. Wanting to have a model to explain how things work and taking pleasure in the model, clinging to it. And yet, the intellectual understanding of the way things work is a necessary condition. Knowing our limits is necessary, so at times it could be helpful to remember how many cittas arise, how quickly they rise and fall. More middle way. > This > is the way to check one¹s own understanding, to find out whether there is > understanding of the true nature of realities or not yet. I would assume there isn't. I see people, things, all the time. How would I "find out" whether there is understanding of the true nature of paramathha dhammas as a person of low insight other than assume that there isn't? And this assuming is just thinking, of course. If I asked "how would I find out?" to Acharn Sujin, she would say "find out." And that is a line I've seen in a sutta. Someone asks the Buddha "how can I know?" "Know." We want to have techniques and short cuts but it's all lobha. Phil 49622 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 4:20pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. philofillet Hi Larry > Phil: "BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to > concentrate on an object, there is self concentrating on the object." > > Hi Phil and Howard, > > I thought I would add, when there is a decision there are two things > going on: prompted consciousness and natural decisive support condition. > Self belief or conceit are probably involved extraneously but there is > neither in samma samadhi. Natural decisive support condition is very > interesting. I think it is conditioning by way of reasoning. More on > this in a few months, after Vism. XIV. I have been intending to post about this, because I'd like to look more closely at the difference between the way Rob M writes about natural decisive support condition and the way Acharn Sujin teaches. It makes sense to me the way Rob says that conditioning factors that are recent, repeated, intense have more conditioning power, that they are more decisive. There is a passage in one of the talks in which Sarah brings this up, but it's not discussed very fully. I'll post it one of these days. In the meantime, can you tell me where I can find this sort of thing in Vism? Thanks in advance. Phil 49623 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 4:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. philofillet Hi Howard > BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to concentrate > on an object, there is self concentrating on the object. > ========================== > But, Phil, concentrating on something is one activity out of many. Except > for its usefulness for a variety of purposes, it is nothing special - just an > activity. > So, accordingly, one should say that to decide to do anything at all, > there is self doing that thing. Does this mean that one should never decide to do > things? Never decide to take proper action? Never decide to study Dhamma? > Never decide to pay more attention to one's responsibility, or to be more > thoughtful? Should we throw out deciding entirely because there might well be a sense > of self in doing so? > I suppose you understand that my answers to these rhetorical questions > are, in every case, "no". Of course there's decision making going on all the time. Certainly. Someone always mentions driving - we decide to turn left and so on. But I think it's helpful to remember that everything we do in life is conditioned. That's true even in psychology, let alone Dhamma. We don't turn left because we think "I should turn left now and if I do I will increase the likelihood of reaching my destination." The countless times we have turned left succesfully conditions the next moment of turning left. And this applies to all our decision making. When it comes to patipati, to Dhamma practice, can we be sure this faulty "if I concentrate on this object now, understanding will be more liely to arise now?" kind of thinking isn't going on? For me, it certainly was/is. So that is what Acharn Sujin is referring to, I guess. If we decide to concentrate on objects again and again with this kind of wrong understanding - starting where we are, not where we want to be, as you put it - by dint of sticking to it diligently, does a more natural approach to understanding arise, does right concentration arise? I suppose it could. I think, for example, clinging to intentional metta with wrong understanding could possibly be condition for metta to arise. The imitation of metta could possibly condition arising of metta. The imitation of right concentration could possibly condition the arising of right concentration. I don't know, of course. The likelihood seems small to me, but I don't know. I imagine in the Buddha's teaching that it is very clear that the imitation of kusala citta does not condition the arising of the kusala citta in question, but I can't refer to an exact teaching there. Phil 49624 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_2) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > This message continues the discussion initiated by Question_2. > > > Question 2 : > > > > Isn't that claiming too much, since you only give six feeling > > definitions along with a listing of the nine events? Definitions and > > listing or labelling are book knowledge at best. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > I have already told that there are 9 feelings. Now in Dhamma Thread > > which reaches (550) I am discussing on feeling. There are more than > > what we discussed here in this recent One_Question_Approach. > > > > It is not too much. It is not just bookish. Can you not see these > > feeling when you sit in and doing standing meditation or walking > > meditation? > > > > If not, you have not achieved anything yet, let alone understanding > > of anicca, dukkha, anatta. Tep: The "seeing" of a feeling's arising-and-passing-away phenomena is quite fifferent from the reading, writing, and discussing the book-knowledge of feelings like you have done. Just like the right view situation, there are the lower level and a higher one. Bhikkhu Bodhi: "This right view that penetrates the Four Noble Truths comes at the end of the path, not at the beginning. We have to start with the right view conforming to the truths, acquired through learning and fortified through reflection. This view inspires us to take up the practice, to embark on the threefold training in moral discipline, concentration,and wisdom. When the training matures, the eye of wisdom opens by itself, penetrating the truths and freeing the mind from bondage." [from "The Noble Eightfold Path" ] Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's note. With regards, Htoo Naing 49625 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Htoo, Howard, Nina, all, > > Thank you for the clarifying information in your posts - very > helpful. > > metta and peace, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, He is amazing. I have been exchanging mails with him. I have noticed people like ABC_Enlightenment, Bhante Vimalaramsi, Sukin, Nina, Kel, Amara, Connie, Rob M, and many others are good at writing and Dhamma. But what I see in this man (Daniel) is that he does not have almost any flaws in his messages (mails) both in writing and dhamma contents unlike others who otherwise made minor flaws including typos, contents, and emotion. One thing I do not agree is just 'the claim of being arahat'. With many thanks, Htoo Naing 49626 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. philofillet Hi again. I realized that what I wrote below makes more sense with a fuller quotation. > The only way > which can be followed is developing understanding of the characteristic of > what appears at this very moment, and this does not have to be delayed. This > is the way to check one¹s own understanding, to find out whether there is > understanding of the true nature of realities or not yet. So "how do we develop understanding of what appears at this moment?" "Develop understanding." :) I love it in the talks when Kom is saying that he gets upset when his respected teacher is bothered by aggressive beggars in India and asks what he should do to not be bothered, the way Acharn Sujin isn't bothered, and she says again and again "just understand" as he continues to express his gentle frustration. Very humourous, very true. Phil > > > This > > is the way to check one¹s own understanding, to find out whether > there is > > understanding of the true nature of realities or not yet. > > I would assume there isn't. I see people, things, all the time. How > would I "find out" whether there is understanding of the true nature of > paramathha dhammas as a person of low insight other than assume that > there isn't? And this assuming is just thinking, of course. > > If I asked "how would I find out?" to Acharn Sujin, she would > say "find out." And that is a line I've seen in a sutta. Someone asks > the Buddha "how can I know?" "Know." We want to have techniques and > short cuts but it's all lobha. > > Phil 49627 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 5:03pm Subject: Anatta ramblings corvus121 Hi Howard Returning home from the city and having another read of your post #49488 (a reply to my earlier post), I can see how foolish I was to ramble on the subject of anatta. I'll try and structure my comments better. I'm interested in your statement that you "have experienced a brief and limited glimpse of no-self … as reality, not just theory". I fancy that I have too. Possibly as a result of that experience, I find that I can `intellectualise' about anatta without having much sense of it (the `more extreme' view of anatta sometimes expressed on DSG) as absurd and preposterous. And, as a person who is often cynical about, for example, New Age things, this can seem a bit surprising to say the least. Nonetheless, my working hypothesis at the moment includes a high degree of confidence in the following: 1. that anatta is a unique teaching of the Buddha(s); 2. that anatta is a core teaching of the Buddha(s), rather than merely a peripheral teaching or a mind-calming technique or, as Peter Harvey calls it, "a practical teaching aimed at the overcoming of attachment". When I read in the suttas that an arahant can say things like "I speak" but "skilful, knowing the world's parlance, he uses such terms as mere expressions", I conclude that we worldlings use "I speak" expressions in a different way from arahants, that is, we read into them an abiding permanent self that directs conditionality by making decisions like "now I shall speak". So how does speaking happen (for there is no denying that it does)? I suppose there are 2 things to look at to try and discover the illusion afflicting the worldling and not afflicting the arahant: perhaps *what* is doing the speaking is different or perhaps *the way* speaking occurs is different (or both). When we go to the Anattalakkhana Sutta, we find that the "I" doesn't abide – what we take for the "I" is something different. And I believe that the teachings on conditionality and the Abhidhamma show us that the whole process involving this not-"I" is different from our expectations of it. But now I get to the part where words fail me and I can get into trouble. At the outset, I want to say that the comments below shouldn't be read as some sort of rendering and/or refutation of your take on anatta – I'm not all that confident I fully understand your view to begin with – especially on the edges. For the main part, though, I think you and I have a lot of common ground on the subject. I also feel I don't know the Theravada approach well enough to be able to say I agree or disagree with many of these issues. In any event, we both believe we have glimpsed the reality of anatta. The rest of the time we are theorizing about it. I think that there is a danger in theorizing about anatta. Just as sheep that stray too far from the shepherd get eaten by wolves, anatta- theorists who stray too far from conditionality and D.O. end up with illusory-self again. I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi makes this very point on page 7 of his Intro to the Brahmajala Sutta. "Doings" and "attainments" tend to confirm the idea of a real abiding self, particularly to worldlings who take the conventional expressions of the Buddha at face value and with insufficient regard for the Buddha's teachings on HOW `doings' and `attainments' actually happen – through conditions and impersonally. Of course, Puggalavadins and followers of Bhikkhu Thanissaro may feel vindicated – `there you go, anatta is just a technique, not a reality, so it's not surprising that the evidence all leads back to a real abiding self'. But because I feel confident that anatta is meant to be read as a description of reality, I am not satisfied with theorizing that leads back towards the position of unreality. I ask myself: where, then, is the error in this theorizing that blocks a true realization of anatta? You may be interested to know that my "glimpse" of anatta occurred in a moment of stress when it finally seemed to dawn upon me that volition was a single conditioned factor and nothing like the great emperor I had thought it was. This was not at the theorizing level … but it has worked its way into my theorizing. I now tend to see and give voice to a concern that volition should not be swathed in the clothing of illusory-self. The notion of volition is a perfect `back door route' for illusory-self to re-enter the household. Back to post #49488, it seems you got the impression from my original post that myself and Bhikkhu Dhammapala "think that the idea of anatta requires that worldlings act without consideration". My answer to that is: 1. the term "worldling" is an expression that deludes me in that what I see it as representing is said to be different from what it actually represents; and 2. my understanding of the process wherein and whereby "worldlings act" is said to be different from the actual process. So when I see your statement that "the Buddha most definitely urged us to stop and consider before acting", I have before me an expression that I am likely to read in an "unreal" way. If I am correct, you would agree but you consider that one must start a process of wholesome doing where one is at (whereas others on DSG contend that the process you are talking about is most likely to be an unreal/misunderstood one involving `desire for result' that conditions in a direction the worldling `doer' doesn't expect - sorry if I've misunderstood the issues). So am I saying we shouldn't stop and consider before acting? Not at all. I am saying that we need to understand that "you should stop and consider" –type statements are to be seen in the light of the Buddhaword and not just at the level of a conventional sage with atta view. Whether this occurs or not will be determined by a whole range of conditions including one called volition (the king without a crown). All this may flow if my understanding of Dhamma is correct and, of course, I can't presume to be so sure. I told Herman that I would make a list of the assumptions underlying my thinking about Dhamma at the moment. I am trying and it is a really interesting exercise. But it is taking much time and I have a new work contract to attend to, so finalizing it may be some way down the track. Until then … Best wishes Andrew T 49628 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. lbidd2 Phil: "In the meantime, can you tell me where I can find this sort of thing in Vism? Thanks in advance." Hi Phil, Re. natural decisive support condition look at Vism.XVII,80-84. Larry 49629 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] gazita2002 Hello James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: Ah, I was relying on your persuasive communication skills to > fill in the gaps, James! > > James: ;-)) If you thought I was going to convince him that he > doesn't exist, you were seriously mistaken. I explained to him > dependent co-arising of phenomenon and impermanence and how you have > taken these teachings of the Buddha to mean that people don't > exist. I explained to him that yours is an extreme viewpoint which > I don't agree with and don't believe the Buddha taught. ....snip..... I get very discouraged by personal attacks and then even > more discouraged when you tell me that I am supposed to take such > attacks as compliments. This group is frequently Denial City. > > Metta, > James azita: James, how many memebers are in dsg and are you saying the whole lot are Denial City? are you including yourself in this, bec you seem to be part of the group? I don't want to be generalised, I am uniquely 'me' however momentarily that may be. patience, courage and good cheer, azita 49630 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 10:53pm Subject: Good gets even Better ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Any Advantageous Mental State Improves the Future! Train yourself in doing good that lasts and brings happiness. Cultivate generosity, the life of peace, and a mind of boundless love. Itivuttuka 16 Generosity, kind words, doing a good turn for others, and treating all people alike: these bonds of sympathy are to the world what the lynch-pin is to the wagon wheel. Anguttara Nikaya II, 32 Good are friends when need arises; good is contentment with just what one has; good is merit when life is at an end, and good is the Leaving of all suffering. Dhammapada 331 In this world, good it is to serve one's mother, good it is to serve one's father, good it is to serve the monks, and good it is to serve the holy ones. Dhammapada 332 Good is moral virtue until life's end, good is faith that is steadfast, good is the acquisition of understanding, and good is the avoidance of evil. Dhammapada 333 To avoid all evil, to cultivate only good, and to purify one's mind- this is the teaching of all Buddhas. Dhammapada 183 The good renounce attachment for everything. The wise do not prattle with a yearning for pleasures. The clever show no elation nor depression when touched by happiness nor sorrow. Dhammapada 83 With good will for the entire universe, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without hostility or hate. Sutta Nipata I, 8 Let any being guard self against irritability in thought; let one be controlled in mind. Leaving mental misconduct, let one practice good conduct in thought. Dhammapada 233 Let any being guard self against irritability in speech; let one be controlled in speech. Leaving verbal misconduct, let one practice good conduct in speech. Dhammapada 232 Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 Consort only with the good, come together with the good. To learn the teaching of the good gives understanding like nothing else can. Samyutta Nikaya I, 17 No mother nor father nor any other kin can do greater good for oneself than a mind directed well. Dhammapada 43 Think not lightly of good, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the wise one, gathering it little by little, fills oneself with advantageous good. Dhammapada 122 Buddhist Images at: http://www.what-buddha-said.org/images/Dhamma Images.htm Drops of Dhamma at: http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/drops/Dhamma.Drops.index.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 49631 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to Enter ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Thank you Thanx2U2! >there is no state beyond that ... !!! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 49632 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 0:58am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 265- Wrong View/di.t.thi (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)] The Buddha taught the truth about all realities which appear in daily life: seeing, hearing, attachment, hardness, softness, heat, cold and all the other phenomena which can be experienced. However, we are ignorant of the realities in and around ourselves and we have wrong view about them. What is wrong view? It is a distorted view of realities, a misinterpretation of them. Do we, for example, know hearing as only an element which hears or do we still cling to an idea of self who hears? Do we know sound as it is, as only a reality which can be heard, or do we take what is heard for a “person” or a “thing” such as a voice or a car? Person, voice or car are concepts we can think of but which cannot be heard. Hearing and thinking occur at different moments and these realities experience different objects. Only one object can be experienced at a time through the appropriate doorway, but we still have many misunderstandings about reality. Through the study of the Dhamma we may have acquired theoretical understanding of realities as being impermanent and non-self, but wrong view cannot be eradicated through theoretical understanding. It can only be eradicated through the practice, through the development of the eightfold Path. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49633 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) kenhowardau Hi Phil, Enjoying you posts as always. I would like to attempt the following question: ----------------- Ph: > BTW, I heard an interesting thing. There is attachment to posture that blocks understanding, something like that. When we concentrate on the concepts that are standing, sitting etc, it is an obstacle to understanding. Where does that come from in the texts? ----------------- One place that comes to mind is the Sabba Sutta - along with other suttas that define the loke (the all, the universe). The loke is everything that really exists, and that does not include concepts such as bodily posture. Quote: "Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." (end quote) To proclaim the reality of posture is to repudiate the All taught by the Buddha. People who cannot accept the fleeting, unsatisfactory, soulless nature of the universe insist on the reality of posture. Such insistence is, as you say, an obstacle to understanding: it repudiates the Buddha and his teaching. Ken H 49634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) nilovg Hi Phil, op 03-09-2005 15:36 schreef Philip op philco777@...: Q. i Why is lobha-múla-citta dangerous, even when it does not >> have the intensity to motivate bad deeds? > Ph: It accumulates. And when the conditions are right, akusala kamma > patha can arise, conditioned by the accumulating lobha. On the other > hand, trying to avoid it would be foolish. ------- N: The Buddha also taught the four right efforts, and these are conditioned by right understanding of the eightfold Path. There is avoiding, but this is a conditioned dhamma. When listening to the Dhamma we gain more confidence in kusala and come to see more the danger of the latent tendency of akusala that can condition the arising of akusala citta of different degrees. And that can happen in such an unforeseeable way. This helps us to understand anattta in theory. When akusala arises we can begin to understand it, at least in theory, as a conditioned dhamma and at that moment there is kusala citta. We learn that it is sati that keeps us from akusala, but we should be truthful and know that we have only theoretical understanding of anatta. The understanding of the truth of anatta can only be realized in the course of the development of the stages of insight up to enlightenment. ------ Ph quotes: In addition, we know that the first citta of every lifetime is > rooted in lobha. > > (I mean to ask why you mention this, Nina. Is it because this > intial lobha-rooted citta has some especially potent conditionng > power to condition more lobha, or is it just as an example of how > much lobha there is?) ------- N: yes, the latter. It shows us that we are in samsara, conditioned by ignorance and clinging. It shows D.O. right from the first javana cittas in our life. -------- Ph: ii Visible object is what appears through the eyes, it is not a >> "thing?E Can attachment to visible object arise during the >> eye-door process? ... You wrote > that there is lobha involved in the process of perceiving an object > through the mind door, figuring out what it is. We want to know what > it is, there is lobha there. I wondered if there are any suttas that > point to this. I think there are, in samyutta nikaya, I think there > are. ____ N: In many, many suttas the Buddha speaks about attachment through the six doors. Note, he speaks of the mind-door separately, distinguishing it from the five sense-doors. See for example; K IV, 60, Pu.n.na. Such cittas arise because lobha has been accumulated, there is no need to think of the object. Lobha performs its function already in being attached. -------- Ph: iii Even the sotåpanna who has realized that phenomena are >> impermanent and non-self has attachment to pleasant >> things. How is that possible? > > I don't know. I know the sotapanna has eradicated lobha that can > lead to transgression, but there are milder forms still playing out. > I don't know. ------ N: Wrong view has been eradicated by the sotaapanna, but not attachment to pleasant objects. But, as you say, there cannot be lobha leading to transgressions. This shows us that the development of insight is very natural. When wrong view has been eradicated, one will, as a lay person, enjoy the pleasant things of life. No need to suppress enjoyment. -------- Ph: iv Is bhava-ta'nh?E craving for becoming, always accompanied >> by wrong view? > > No, but craving for non-becoming always is because it denies the > truth of rebirth, of samsara. Craving for becoming is accompanied by > wrong view when....I forget. N: When accompanied by eternity view. -------- Ph: Who has eradicated all forms of bhava-ta'nhaa? > > Now I remember, kind of. Only the anagami has eradicated all forms > because even the sotapanna still craves arupa realms, or something > like that. ------ N: See Cetasikas, p. 145: The anaagaami has eradicated sensuous clinging. But the anaagaami may cling to ruupajhaana and aruupa jhaana and their resultrs which is births in higher planes. Only the arahat has eradicated all kinds of clinging. ------- >> vi Can the sotåpanna (streamwinner) have vibhava-ta'nh?E >> clinging to non-existence? > > No. No more wrong view for the streamwinner. He or she could never > deny the fact of rebirth, could never deny that there are no results > of deeds. ------ N: Right. No annihilation belief. --------- Ph: vii Can the anågåm?E(non-returner) have clinging to seeing? > > Hmmm. I guess so. ------ N: no, that falls under clinging to the sense objects, the senses, the sense-cognitions. The world of the senses. The latent tendency of kaamaraga, sense desire, has been eradicated. ------ Ph: viii Can the anågåm?Ehave attachment to jhåna? > > I don't know. ------- N: Yes. To jhaana and its result. That is not sensuous clinging. --------- Ph: ix Is it possible to have attachment when we help someone >> else? > > I would say is it possible to *not* have attachment when we help > someone else. Of course it is, but there is so much lobha, almost > always lobha. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't help people. > But be aware that there is subtle clinging to the idea of being a > helpful person, a patient person, a good Buddhist. ------ N: Yes, very good. We have to be truthful. --------- >> x Can attachment to sati be a hindrance to the development >> of the eightfold Path? > > Yes. But there is no "wrong sati" per se, as a cetasika, as there > is for wrong samadhi, wrong virya etc. --------- N: Right. Attachment to sati is bound to arise, but paññaa should know such moments, otherwise one will definitely get stuck. ---------- Ph: BTW, I heard an interesting thing. There is attachment to posture > that blocks understanding, something like that. When we concentrate > on the concepts that are standing, sitting etc, it is an obstacle to > understanding. Where does that come from in the texts? -------- N: It prevents us from seeing the arising and falling away of ruupas. I quote what I wrote before: ------- Ph: xi Attachment to music is akusala. Monks are not allowed to >> apply themselves to music. Should even laypeople give up >> music in order to develop vipassan?E > > It depends. Some people are good at music, or painting, or > writing. It comes naturally, and doesn't hurt anyone. We are not > saints, not monks, and inserting monk-like aspects into busy daily > lives is not an indication of right understanding. ---------- > Ph: xii Can attachment be the object of mindfulness? > Sure. It is easier to be mindful of dosa, because it appears as > the enemy. It's harder to recognize an enemy that appears in the > guise of a friend. .. ------------ N: Yes, it can, but, at the same time we should see that we mostly name them (even not expressively, but surreptitiously) dosa and lobha, or define them instead of being directly aware of their characteristics. There are stages of insight, and before the first stage it is not known precisely what naama is. It is necessary to realize what we do not know yet, otherwise we delude ourselves. Nina. 49635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? nilovg Hi Mike, can you elaborate more? This would be a very good reminder for all of us. Also how you feel personally about cherished delusions and tiresome texts. Nina. op 03-09-2005 19:51 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > Yet another cherished delusion ruined by those tiresome texts. Oh well! 49636 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:40am Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - Thank you for valuing me a discussion partner. Although I am not educated at all about Madhyamika and Nagarjuna, yet I think your comment on the middle view (between the two extremes) is interesting. > > colette: The middle-path in no way even attempts to reconcile each > polarization to manifest the eddy, static middle position. > Why is the middle position eddy and static? Shall we peacefully discuss the middle-way approach of the Buddha without branching out too much? ^_*. With appreciation, Tep =========== 49637 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:52am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / One-question Approach (Discussion_3) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - A short answer like this is uncharacteristic of Htoo Naing ! > Htoo: > Thanks for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's note. > Tep: Does it mean : a) You agree with BB and me and the discussion is closed, or (b) you don't appreciate the quoted BB's writing on right view and the discussion is closed, or (c) you want more time to think and will get back later, or (d) ---------------------. ? Looking forward to hear from you again. With appreciation, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > > Tep: The "seeing" of a feeling's arising-and-passing-away > phenomena is quite fifferent from the reading, writing, and > discussing the book-knowledge of feelings like you have done. Just > like the right view situation, there are the lower level and a higher > one. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi: "This right view that penetrates the Four Noble Truths > comes at the end of the path, not at the beginning. We have to start > with the right view conforming to the truths, acquired through > learning and fortified through reflection. This view inspires us to > take up the practice, to embark on the threefold training in moral > discipline, concentration,and wisdom. When the training matures, the > eye of wisdom opens by itself, penetrating the truths and freeing the > mind from bondage." > > [from "The Noble Eightfold Path" ] > 49638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion) jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for these further comments. I will do my best to answer while keeping to your rules ('no commentaries, only sutta references') ;-)) Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: My most concern is not about the meanings of 'lokiya' >or 'lokuttara' per se, but rather about whether the Buddha talked >about "mundane jhanas" and "supramundane jhanas", and >even "samatha jhanas" versus "vipassana jhanas". If he never did, >then I would be happy happy. > >Why? My point has been that the Buddha only taught his monks one >kind of jhanas (4 or 5 rupa- and arupa-jhanas) and that the four arupa >jhanas were defined by him as the samma-samadhi in DN 22 and >consistently throughout the Sutta Pitaka, regardless of whether the >discourse was about a samatha kamatthana or vipassana bhavana. >That is, in conclusion, my point has been that our Great Sage, Great >Teacher Buddha taught only one kind of jhanas that lead to vipassana- >nana and vimutti. This is very important because it means the following: > >1. There are no dumb jhanas in Buddhism. > As I understand it, the jhana mentioned by the Buddha in the context of samatha bhavana is the same jhana as was being attained by people before his enlightenment. In a later post to KenH you say: 'The old jhana that had existed before the Buddha "appeared in the world" was obsolete by the Buddha's discovery < the four Noble Truths with 4 rupa-jhanas imbedded in the eighth path factor, samma- samadhi> -- the old jhana was a dumb concentration -- you should no longer care about it. Clinging to obsolete subjects is dukkha.' I would be interested to know the basis for this contention, which I have not heard before. >2. Samma-samadhi requires 4 rupa-jhanas. > My reading of the passage in DN 22 and elsewhere is that at a moment of magga citta there is present concentration of one or other of the levels of jhana mentioned in the description of samma-samadhi. >3. To become an Ariya-puggala (there are 4 kinds) without a jhana is >not possible. > Samma-samadhi is one of the eight factors that are present at a moment of magga citta and without which magga citta cannot occur. Nowhere in the description of samma-samadhi does it refer to the need for jhana to occur *before* the moment of magga citta (if that's what you are suggesting). >4. The jhanas that are induced by vipassana bhavana are the same >kind as those in samatha bhavana. > Since magga citta is but a single moment, the accompanying factor of samma-samadhi is also of a single moment's duration. >By the way, I am not interested in reading any Commentaries or >commentaries about this subject. I am only interested in what the >Buddha said. > In any discussion about what the Buddha said, it is impossible to limit oneself to the actual words of the Buddha only (for example, each of your 4 statements above goes beyond the exact words of the Buddha, and includes your own slant on passages you have read). So we should be free to explain the passages from the suttas using our own terms or, for that matter, text from the commentaries. The material contained in the commentaries is not the personal view of the compiler, but is the accepted understanding of the Theras from the time of the Buddha or shortly after. Those materials are well worth considering, I think. Jon 49639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard I was pleased that you came back on this thread ;-)) > Jon: > >However, if you would like to follow the 'defiled awarness' issue along a >little further, I would be happy to do so (I suspect there are differences >of terminology there that need to be ironed out). I'm sure we can keep it >light and friendly ;-)) >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > That sounds good to me, Jon. I suspect that the difference on this issue >may be partly a matter of terminology especially as regards what we each mean >by "true & valid." Perhaps you mean that "Whatever we experience is what we >experience, and in that sense it couldn't be anything other than 'true & >valid'," whereas I am zeroing in on the matter of perversion of perception wherein >ignorance produces an experience of self when none actually exists, an >experience of permanence where there is only impermanence, and an experience of >satisfactoriness when, in fact, no conditioned dhammas are sources of true and >lasting satisfaction. >---------------------------------------- > > Looking back through your earlier posts, you make the distinction between 'ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of ignorance' and 'awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom)'. As you see it, only in the latter case is there 'true and valid' experiencing. I think a two-fold distinction is a little simplistic. There is actually a far larger number of scenarios that could be considered as being part of 'ordinary awareness/experience'. For example, an experiencing that is: (a) akusala consciousness rooted in ignorance alone (b) akusala consciousness rooted in lobha or dosa but not accompanied by wrong view, (c) akusala consciousness accompanied by wrong view, (d) kusala consciousness without panna, (e) kusala consciousness with panna (f) vipaka consciousness (moment of mere experiencing of object through sense-door). I think it is difficult to apply a classification of 'true and valid experience' (or not) to many of these. How would you see it? Looking forward to continuing the discussion on this thread. Jon >PS Sorry about the overly-brief references from your post when sending my >earlier message. Your original message was at #48738 (Aug 12). >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Thanks. Actually, I realize now that had I read your post at the website >instead of from my inbox, I could have just accessed the upthread and found >the original post quite easily. (I typically only access messages at the website >when I'm having problems w/email.) > On the subject of using the 'Up thread' link on the website to trace the earlier messages in a thread, I notice that this doesn't seem to work for your own posts! Any idea why that might be? Thanks. J 49640 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control/ Matheesha's Good Points jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for including me in your list of addressees. I'd like to comment on the part that says: "The idea that studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not found in any of the suttas as far as I know." I do not recall anyone here ever saying that "studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi". What has been said may times is that intellectual understanding must precede deeper, more direct forms of understanding. This applies to samatha as it does to vipassana. The importance of a sound intellectual grasp of the teachings, as a basis for reflection and development, is emphasised many times in the suttas, and its importance should not be underestimated. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Matheesha and Ken H (Attn. Howard, Phillip, Jon) - > >Thank you, Matheesha, for making th following great points in your >message # 49477 to Ken H. > >Matheesha: > >1. If we look at the noble eightfold path samma sati gives rise to >samma samadhi which in turn leads to samma gnana and samma >vimukti. I dont think, that you think that you can bypass samma samadhi >and get to the other two. Or maybe the question should be - what do >you consider as samma samadhi. Access concentration is not >mentioned anywhere in the suttas. The four jhaanas as samma >samadhi is mentioned multiple times in the suttas. > >2. I recently studied for 8 hours in one day. I never reached any type >of samadhi. However if I focus on my breath I can reach the first >jhana in about 30 minutes. The idea that studying can give rise any >useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not >found in any of the suttas as far as I know. Can you find a reference? > >----------------------------------------------- > >Regards, > > >Tep > > 49641 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta ramblings upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - I'm having trouble replying on this computer. It's close to impossible. I'll write you Wednesday with a proper reply. With metta, Howard -----Original Message----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 00:03:45 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Anatta ramblings Hi Howard Returning home from the city and having another read of your post #49488 (a reply to my earlier post), I can see how foolish I was to ramble on the subject of anatta. I'll try and structure my comments better. I'm interested in your statement that you "have experienced a brief and limited glimpse of no-self ? as reality, not just theory". I fancy that I have too. Possibly as a result of that experience, I find that I can `intellectualise' about anatta without having much sense of it (the `more extreme' view of anatta sometimes expressed on DSG) as absurd and preposterous. And, as a person who is often cynical about, for example, New Age things, this can seem a bit surprising to say the least. Andrew T 49642 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - Having computer troubles here, Jon. Will reply mid-week after I've returned home! With metta, Howard -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:09:42 +0800 Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. Hi Howard I was pleased that you came back on this thread ;-)) 49643 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 8:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control/ Matheesha's Good Points buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (and, of course, Matheesha) - Thank you for giving a comment on a part of Matheesha's message that says: >Matheesha: >>2. I recently studied for 8 hours in one day. I never reached any type >>of samadhi. However if I focus on my breath I can reach the first >>jhana in about 30 minutes. The idea that studying can give rise any >>useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not >>found in any of the suttas as far as I know. Can you find a reference? > However, you defended intellectual understanding which was not Matheesha's concern. Jon: > Hi Tep > > Thanks for including me in your list of addressees. > > I'd like to comment on the part that says: > "The idea that studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not found in any of the suttas as far as I know." > > I do not recall anyone here ever saying that "studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi". What has been said may times is that > intellectual understanding must precede deeper, more direct forms of > understanding. This applies to samatha as it does to vipassana. > > The importance of a sound intellectual grasp of the teachings, as a > basis for reflection and development, is emphasised many times in the suttas, and its importance should not be underestimated. > > Jon Tep: But at least you admited that intellectual understanding, which was resulted from studying, was not adequate to give rise to a "useful form" of samadhi. I agree with that wholeheartedly, and I also totally agree with you that a sound intellectual grasp of the Teachings is "a basis for reflection and development" of the Dhamma in one's heart. Warm regards, Tep ======= > 49644 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 8:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 522 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bojjhanga sangaha there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) Altogether there are 37 factors that are companions of Bodhi naana or 'knowledge of great-knowing'. 'Bu' means 'to know'. 'Bu' + 'Adhi' = 'Bodhi'. Adhi means 'great'. Bodhi means 'great knowing'. Those who know such great Dhamma are called Budha. Budhas are wise beings. Among Budhas, Buddhas are the greated and they are called 'Fully Self-Enlightened Ones'. Double 'd' that is 'dd' here represent greater than any of 'd'. Certain traditions assume that all beings will one day become 'buddhas'. It might be misinterpretation on this 'Budhas' and 'Buddhas'. Anyway for arahatta magga naana to arise, these 37 factors are necessary and they are companions of Bodhi-naana and they are called 'Bodhi-pakkhiya Dhammas'. 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) There are 4 satipatthaanas or 4 frames of reference of mindfulness or there are 4 contemplations. They are 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'body-contemplation'(261) 2. vedanaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'feeling-contemplation' (30) 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'consciousness-contemplation'(51) 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'dhamma-contemplation' (108) The first 3 have been explained in the previous posts. There are 108 contemplations on Dhamma. 4. 108 dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana (dhamma-contemplations) 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivaranaanupassana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandhaanupassanaa) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatanaanupassanaa) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhangaanupassanaa) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths (saccaanupassanaa) ----- ++108 contemplations on Dhamma or 108 dhammaanupassanaa 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances 1. there is sensuous thinking 2. there is no sensuous thinking 3. sensuous thinking arises because of inappropriate attention 4. sensuous thinking vanishes because of appropriate attention 5. sensuous thinking cannot arise any longer because of path-knowledge 6 to 10 are on 'aversive thinking', 11 to 15 are on 'slothed & torpored thinking', 16 to 20 are on 'wandering-worrying thinking', and 21 to 25 are on 'suspicious thinking'. 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandhaanupassanaa) 1. this is ruupa 2. this is origination of ruupa 3. this is dissolution of ruupa 4,5,6 are on vedana or feeling, 7,8,9 are on sannaa or perceptions, 10,11,12 are on sankhaara or formations or fabrications aggregates and 13,14,15 are on vinnaana or consciousness aggregates. 3. 36 contemplations on sense-base (ayatanaanupassanaa) 1. this is ruupa(visual object or ruupaarammana or ruupaayatana) 2. this is eye ( eye-sensitivity or cakkaayatana or cakkhu pasaada ) 3. this is samyojana or fetter arisen from 2 ayatanas or sense-bases 4. this is unarisen fetter that arises because of inappropriate atten. 5. this is dissolution of fetters because of appropriate attention 6. this vanished fetters can never arise again because of path-knowle. As there are further 5 pairs of ayatanas there are further 30 contemplations on ayatana-related dhamma. So there are 36 contemplations on ayatana dhamma. These further 5 pairs are a) saddaayatana (sound) and sotaayatana (ear) b) gandhaayatana(smell) and ghaanaayatana(nose) c) rasaayatana (taste) and jivhaayatana (tongue) d) photthabbaayatana(touch) and kaayaayatana(body) e) dhammaayatana (mind-object-sense-base) and manaayatana (mind-sense- base) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhangaanupassanaa) 1. there is mindfulness-enlightenment factor 2. there is no mindfulness-enlightenment factor 3. this unarisen factor now arises because of appropriate attention 4. this arisen factor is now perfected because of path-knowledge There are other 6 enlightenment-factors and as there are 4 contemplations on each there are further 24 contemplations. Along with 4 contemplations on mindfulness-enlightenment factor there are a total of 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors. 7 enlightenment factors are 1. mindfulness-EF or sati-sambojjhanga 2. investigation of phenomena-EF or dhammaavicaya-sambojjhanga 3. joy-EF or piiti-sambojjhanga 4. tranquility-EF or passaddhi-sambojjhanga 5. effort-EF or viiriya-sambojjhanga 6. concentration-EF or samaadhi-sambojjhanga 7. equanimity-EF or upekkhaa-sambojjhanga 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths. 1. this is 'suffering the truth' or dukkha-sacca 2. this is 'origination-suffering the truth' or samudaya-sacca 3. this is 'cessation-suffering the truth' or nirodha-sacca 4. this is 'Path-suffering-ceaser the truth' or magga-sacca May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49645 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 8:58am Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > azita: James, how many memebers are in dsg and are you saying the > whole lot are Denial City? are you including yourself in this, bec > you seem to be part of the group? > I don't want to be generalised, I am uniquely 'me' however > momentarily that may be. > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita It was just a generalization, and probably an inappropriate one at that. Don't take it personally. Metta, James 49646 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / One-question Approach (Discussion_3) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - A short answer like this is uncharacteristic of Htoo Naing ! > > Htoo: > > Thanks for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's note. Tep: Does it mean : a) You agree with BB and me and the discussion is closed, or (b) you don't appreciate the quoted BB's writing on right view and the discussion is closed, or (c) you want more time to think and will get back later, or (d) ---------------------. ? Looking forward to hear from you again. With appreciation, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanksfor your message. The answer is a). I agree. So I just closed. Thanks for your new idea which does work. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49647 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 9:11am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I am sorry to see that you quoted from the message that contained an error (even though I corrected that in another message that was overlooked!). >Why? My point has been that the Buddha only taught his monks one >kind of jhanas (4 or 5 rupa- and arupa-jhanas) and that the four arupa >jhanas were defined by him as the samma-samadhi in DN 22 and >consistently throughout the Sutta Pitaka, ... Tep: The error was 'the four arupa jhanas '; the corrected version was : the four rupa jhanas were defined by him as the samma-samadhi .. etc. --------------- >1. There are no dumb jhanas in Buddhism. > Jon: As I understand it, the jhana mentioned by the Buddha in the context of samatha bhavana is the same jhana as was being attained by people before his enlightenment. Tep: I am sorry to say, that is a wrong understanding, Jon. ------------- Jon: I would be interested to know the basis for this contention, which I have not heard before. Tep: Some sutta evidence is now given below. More research should be done by studying the whole Sutta-pitaka. Since you have asked for it, I would consider you to be very polite and honest if you could read my research below and give me a critique. (1) Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption, AN IX.36] ========== "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then -- through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma- delight, and from the total wasting away of the five lower fetters [self- identity views, grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and irritation] -- he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. [Similarly with the other levels of jhana up through the dimension of nothingness.] "Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis- penetration goes. As for these two dimensions -- the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception -- I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them." [end quote AN IX.36] (2) MN II. 2.4. Mahamalunkhyaputtasutta (64) The Major Discourse to Venerable Malunkhyaputta. http://www.vipassana.info/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm "Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations( sankhara khandha), the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment(viraga), cessation and extinction (nibbana). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. [ Repeat for the 2nd to the 4th jhana] (3) The Breathing Treatise - the Thesis of the great Arahant Sariputta =============== * 19. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the first jhana? Of the first jhana purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. 20. Of the first jhana purification of the way is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three characteristics: (i) cognizance is purified of obstructions to that [jhana]; (ii) because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity(samatha nimitta); (iii) because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state. And in that cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity(samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way (patipadaa-visuddhi) is the beginning of the first jhana. These are the three characteristics of the beginning. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the beginning, which possesses [three] characteristics. 21. Of the first jhana intensification of equanimity is the middle: how many characteristics has the middle? The middle has three characteristics: (iv) he looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified; (v) he looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity; (vi) he looks on with equanimity at the establishment of unity. And in that he [now] looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity(samatha) and looks on with equanimity(upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity(ekatta), that intensification of equanimity is the middle of the first jhana. These are three characteristics of the middle. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the middle, which possesses [three] characteristics. 22. Of the first jhana encouragement is the end: how many characteristics has the end? The end has four characteristics: (vii) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas (dhamma) arisen therein; (viii) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function (rasa = taste); (ix) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy(viriya) was effective; (x) encouragement in the sense of repetition; are the encouragement in the end of the first jhana. These are the four characteristics of the end. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the end, which possesses [four] characteristics. 23. Cognizance that has reached the triple cycle [of beginning, middle and end] thus and is good in the three ways and possesses the ten characteristics also possesses [the five jhana factors of] applied- thought (vitakka) and sustained-thought(vicara) and happiness(piti) and pleasure(sukha) and steadiness(adhitthaana) as well as [the five faculties and powers of] faith(saddha) and energy(viriya) and mindfulness(sati) and concentration(samadhi) and understanding (panna). ----------------------------------- Tep's Notes: for the remaining paragraphs the "first jhana" is replaced by the second jhana through the fourth jhana, by each of the four immaterial attainments, by each of the 18 principal insights, and by each of the four paths (ariya-magga). (4) SN XLVIII.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta ========== "And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration. (5) DN 22 Maha-satipatthana SUtta ======= "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. (6)Mindfulness, Recollection & Concentration by Ven. Dhammavuddho Thero http://www.vbgnet.org/resource/articles/art9.asp The Necessity of Jhana for Liberation "In Anguttara Nikaya 3.85 and 9.12, the Buddha compares the threefold training of higher morality, higher mind/concentration and higher wisdom with the four ariya (noble) fruitions. It is said that the sotapanna (stream-enterer), the first fruition, and the sakadagami (once-returner), the second fruition, are accomplished in morality. The anagami (non- returner), the third fruition, is accomplished in morality and concentration. The arahant (one who is liberated), the fourth fruition, is accomplished in morality, concentration and wisdom. "As concentration and right concentration refers to the jhanas in the suttas, jhana is clearly a necessary condition to attain the anagami and arahant stages. EVIDENCE IN THE SUTTAS "Anguttara Nikaya 3.88: This sutta is also about the same threefold training. Here the training in the higher mind is defined as the Four Jhanas. Similarly in Majjhima Nikaya 6, the Buddha described the Four Jhanas as that which constitute the higher mind and provide a pleasant abiding here and now. "Anguttara Nikaya 4.61: 'Endowed with wisdom' is described in this sutta. It is stated that one who has eliminated the defilements of the Five Hindrances (panca nivarana)[22] is 'of great wisdom, of widespread wisdom, of clear vision, one endowed with wisdom'. From the description of the first jhana above we find that the hindrances are eliminated when one attains the jhanas. This means that attainment of the jhanas (with the other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path) results in great wisdom. "Anguttara Nikaya 6.70: Here the Buddha says: 'Truly, monks, that a monk without the peace of concentration in high degree, without winning one-pointedness of mind shall enter and abide in liberation by mind or liberation by wisdom -- that cannot be.[23] "Anguttara Nikaya 9.36: The Buddha says: 'Truly, I say, asava[24] - destruction (arahantship) depends upon the first jhana . . . second jhana . . . third jhana . . . fourth jhana . . . .' "Majjhima Nikaya 24: This sutta talks about the seven purifications which lead to Nibbana, the final goal. One of these is the purification of mind, which is not defined here. However, in Anguttara Nikaya 4.194, it is stated that utter purification of mind refers to the four jhanas. "Majjhima Nikaya 36: In this sutta the Buddha talked about his struggle for enlightenment, how he cultivated various austerities for several years in vain. Then he sought an alternative way to liberation and recalled his attainment of jhana when he was young under the rose- apple tree. Following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to enlightenment.' Then, using jhana, he finally attained enlightenment. That is why the jhanas are called the 'footprints of the Tathagata' in Majjhima Nikaya 27. "Majjhima Nikaya 52: Here venerable Ananda was asked what is the one thing the Buddha taught that is needed to win liberation. Venerable Ananda replied: 'first jhana . . . second jhana . . . third jhana . . . fourth jhana . . . .' "Majjhima Nikaya 64: The Buddha says here: 'There is a path, Ananda, a way to the elimination of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or eliminate the five lower fetters[25] -- that is not possible.' Then the Buddha goes on to explain the path, the way -- which is the attainment of the first jhana . . . second jhana . . . third jhana . . . fourth jhana . . . . Here, it's very clear that it is impossible to attain the state of the anagami or arahant without jhana. "Majjhima Nikaya 108: Venerable Ananda was asked what kind of meditation was praised by the Buddha and what kind of meditation was not praised by the Buddha. Venerable Ananda replied that the kind of meditation where the Four Jhanas were attained was praised by the Buddha; the kind of meditation where the Five Hindrances are not eliminated was not praised by the Buddha. "Majjhima Nikaya 68: Here the Buddha confirms that jhana is the necessary condition for the elimination of the Five Hindrances: 'While he still does not attain to the delight and pleasure that are secluded from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states (i.e. first jhana) or to something more peaceful than that (i.e. higher jhanas), covetousness[26] . . . ill-will . . . sloth and torpor . . . restlessness and remorse . . . doubt . . . discontent . . . weariness invade his mind and remains . . . . When he attains to the delight and pleasure that are secluded from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states or to something more peaceful than that, covetousness . . . ill-will . . . sloth and torpor . . . restlessness and remorse . . . doubt . . . discontent . . . weariness do not invade his mind and remain . . . .' "Thus the type of meditation where there is jhana attainment was praised by the Buddha; the type of meditation where jhana is not attained was not praised by the Buddha. It can be concluded from this that the primary aim of meditation is to eliminate the Five Hindrances and attain the jhanas. "Digha Nikaya 12: '. . . A disciple goes forth and practices the moralities and attains the first jhana . . . And whenever the pupil of a teacher attains to such excellent distinction, that is a teacher who is not to be blamed in the world. And if anyone blames that teacher, his blame is improper, untrue, not in accordance with reality, and faulty . . . .' "Majjhima Nikaya 76: Ananda points out that the Buddha declared a wise man certainly would live the holy life, and while living it would attain the true way, the Dhamma that is wholesome, if he can eliminate the Five Hindrances and attain the Four Jhanas as well as realize the three true knowledges. "Majjhima Nikaya 14: 'Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering . . . , as long as he still does not attain to the delight and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states (the first jhana) or to something more peaceful than that (the higher jhanas), he may still be attracted to sensual pleasure.' "No jhana, the wrong path. Right concentration is the Four Jhanas, the eighth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. When jhana is attained, the Five Hindrances are eliminated. This is the type of meditation praised by the Buddha because it is conducive to liberation, Nibbana. In Majjhima Nikaya 31, 'a superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones' is defined as the first jhana . . . second jhana . . . third jhana . . . fourth jhana . . . .' To say that jhana is not necessary is the same as saying that right concentration is not necessary for liberation. In effect, this means we are only practising a sevenfold path, which is not the path laid down by the Buddha to win Nibbana. In Samyutta Nikaya 16.13, this is mentioned as one of the factors leading to the disappearance of the true Dhamma. Thus in Anguttara Nikaya 6.64 the Buddha said: 'Concentration is the path; no- concentration, the wrong path.' [endquote of the article by Ven. Dhammavuddho] ------------------------------------------------- Tep: My answers to your other comments are not necessary, since you now can find them from the above research. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 49648 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 9:24am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / Discussion_3 Final Note of Appreciation buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - I truly admire your honesty to tell me the truth. You did not break your precept, or beat around the bush, just to save face like most people would do. And I truly appreciate that dhamma quality. > Htoo: > Thanks for your message. The answer is a). I agree. So I just closed. > > Thanks for your new idea which does work. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing With sincere respect, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > A short answer like this is uncharacteristic of Htoo Naing ! > > > > Htoo: > > > Thanks for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's note. > > > Tep: Does it mean : > > a) You agree with BB and me and the discussion > is closed, or > > (b) you don't appreciate the quoted BB's writing on right view and > the discussion is closed, or > > (c) you want more time to think and will get back later, or > > (d) ---------------------. ? > 49649 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - Trying to reply again. -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:09:42 +0800 Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. Hi Howard I was pleased that you came back on this thread ;-)) > Jon: > >However, if you would like to follow the 'defiled awarness' issue along a >little further, I would be happy to do so (I suspect there are differences >of terminology there that need to be ironed out). I'm sure we can keep it >light and friendly ;-)) >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > That sounds good to me, Jon. I suspect that the difference on this issue >may be partly a matter of terminology especially as regards what we each mean >by "true & valid." Perhaps you mean that "Whatever we experience is what we >experience, and in that sense it couldn't be anything other than 'true & >valid'," whereas I am zeroing in on the matter of perversion of perception wherein >ignorance produces an experience of self when none actually exists, an >experience of permanence where there is only impermanence, and an experience of >satisfactoriness when, in fact, no conditioned dhammas are sources of true and >lasting satisfaction. >---------------------------------------- > > Looking back through your earlier posts, you make the distinction between 'ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of ignorance' and 'awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom)'. As you see it, only in the latter case is there 'true and valid' experiencing. I think a two-fold distinction is a little simplistic. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure. I'm not drawing fine distinctions here. What I had in mind was the conceptual overlay we impose on the plain experience of hardness, making it seem to be a self-existent, independent, "thing". The plain experience of the rupa of hardness is "true and valid", but our further concocting creates cognitive distortion. ------------------------------------------- There is actually a far larger number of scenarios that could be considered as being part of 'ordinary awareness/experience'. For example, an experiencing that is: (a) akusala consciousness rooted in ignorance alone (b) akusala consciousness rooted in lobha or dosa but not accompanied by wrong view, (c) akusala consciousness accompanied by wrong view, (d) kusala consciousness without panna, (e) kusala consciousness with panna (f) vipaka consciousness (moment of mere experiencing of object through sense-door). I think it is difficult to apply a classification of 'true and valid experience' (or not) to many of these. How would you see it? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as I said, I'm not drawing fine distinctions. As to the categories (a)-(f) above, I question their independence and even their disjointness. Also, I wonder about the precision of these items. If by "wrong view" you mean avijja, then (b) is nonexistent. Certainly craving and aversion are based on a sense of self if not a *belief* in self. Likewise I wonder about item (d), questioning whether a wholesome mindstate can be entirely bereft of wisdom. ---------------------------------------------- Looking forward to continuing the discussion on this thread. Jon >PS Sorry about the overly-brief references from your post when sending my >earlier message. Your original message was at #48738 (Aug 12). >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Thanks. Actually, I realize now that had I read your post at the website >instead of from my inbox, I could have just accessed the upthread and found >the original post quite easily. (I typically only access messages at the website >when I'm having problems w/email.) > On the subject of using the 'Up thread' link on the website to trace the earlier messages in a thread, I notice that this doesn't seem to work for your own posts! Any idea why that might be? ----------------------------------- Howard: I have no idea. ------------------------------------- Thanks. J ====================================== With metta, Howard 49650 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 10:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 523 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Saccaanupassanaa or 'contemplation on Noble Truth' is part of dhammaanupassanaa or 'contemplation on dhamma'. There are 99 contemplations on sacca or 4 Noble Truth. There are 99 contemplations on sacca or 4 Noble Truths. Contemplations on Noble Truths (saccaanupassanaa) 1. 12 contemplations on 'dukkha saccaa' or 'suffering the truth' 2. 30 contemplations on 'samudaya sacca' or 'cause the truth' 3. 30 contemplations on 'nirodha sacca' or 'cessation the truth' 4. 27 contemplations on 'magga sacca' or 'Path the truth' ----- +++99 contemplations on Noble Truth or saccaanupassanaa 1. 12 contemplations on dukkha sacca or 'suffering the truth' 1. this is jati (birth) & it is suffering 2. this is jaraa(ageing)& it is suffering 3. this is marana(death)& it is suffering 4. this is soka (sorrow)& it is suffering 5. this is parideva(lamentation)& it is suffering 6. this is dukkha (physical pain)& it is suffering 7. this is domanassa(mental displeasure)& it is suffering 8. this is upayaasaa(despair)& it is suffering 9. this is appiyehi-sampayogo(association with the dislike)& suffering 10.this is piyehi-vippayogo(dissociation with the like)& suffering 11.this is yampiccham-na-labhati(non-achievement of the wanted)& suff. 12.this is pancupadaanakkhandhaa(5-clinging aggregates)& suffering 2. 30 contemplations on samudaya sacca or 'cause the truth' There are 10 causes in oneself. Sometimes 10 causes in others' selves are perceived as dhamma (cause or samudaya). And sometimes 10 causes in both oneself & others' selves are perceived or contemplated. So there are 30 contemplations on causes. Basically there are 10 causes. These 10 causes are kaama-tanha, bhava-tanha, vibhava-tanha that arise at 1. ajjhatta ayatana or internal sense-base 1. cakkh-ayatana (eye) 2. sota-ayatana (ear) 3. ghana-ayatana (nose) 4. jivha-ayatana (tongue) 5. kaaya-ayatana (body) 6. mana-ayatana (mind) 2. bahiddha ayatana or external sense-base 1. rupa-ayatana (visual sense-base) 2. sadda-ayatana (sound) 3. gandha-ayatana (smell) 4. rasa-ayatana(taste) 5. photthabba-ayatana (touch-sense) 6. dhamma-ayatana (mind-object). 3. panca-vinnaana cittas and mano-vinnaana cittas 1.cakkhu-vinnaana citta or eye-sense-consciousness 2. sota-vinnaana citta or ear-sense-consciousness 3. ghana-vinnaana citta or nose-sense-consciousness 4. jivha-vinnaana citta or tongue-sense-consciousness 5. kaaya-vinnaana citta or body-sense-consciousness 6. mano-vinnaana citta or mind-sense-consciousness 4. salasamphassa or 6 contacts 1. cakkhu-samphassa or eye-contact 2. sota-samphassa or ear-contact 3. ghaana-samphassa or nose-contact 4. jivha-samphassa or tongue-contact 5. kaaya-samphassa or body-contact 6. mano-samphassa or mind-contact 5. salaasamphassajaa vedana or 'contact-born feeling' 1. cakkhu-samphassajaa vedana or eye-contact-born feeling 2. sota-samphassajaa vedana or ear-contact-born feeling 3. ghaana-samphassajaa vedanaa or nose-contact-born feeling 4. jivhaa-samphassajaa vedanaa or tongue-contact-born feeling 5. kaaya-samphassajaa vedana or body-contact-born feeling 6. mano-samphassajaa vedanaa or mind-contact-born feeling 6. salaasannaa or 6 perceptions 1. rupa-sannaa or visual perception 2. sadda-sannaa or auditory perception 3. gandha-sanna or olfactory perception 4. rasa-sanna or gustatory perception 5. photthabba-sanna or tactile perception 6. dhamma-sannaa or thought perception 7. salasancetanaa or 6 volitions/ 6 formations 1. rupa-sam-cetana or visual volition 2. sadda-sam-cetana or auditory volition 3. gandha-sam-cetana or olfactory volition 4. rasa-sam-cetana or gustatory volition 5. photthabba-sam-cetanaa or tactile volition 6. dhamma-sam-cetana or mind-object volition 8. salaatanhaa or 6 tanhaa or 6 craving 1. ruupa-tanhaa or craving at visual object 2. sadda-tanhaa or craving at auditory object 3. gandha-tanhaa or craving at olfactory object 4. rasa-tanhaa or craving at gustatory object 5. photthabba-tanha or craving at tactile object 6. dhamma-tanhaa or craving at mind-object 9. salaavitakka or 6 vitakka or 6 initial-thinking (induction) 1. rupa-vitakka or initial-thinking of visual-object 2. sadda-vitakka or initial-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vitakka or initial-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vitakka or initial-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vitakka or initial-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vitakka or initial-thinking of mind-object 10. salaavicaara or 6 vicaara or 6 sustained-thinking (maintenance) 1. rupa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of visual object 2. sadda-vicaara or sustained-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vicaara or sustained-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vicaara or sustained-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vicaara or sustained-thinking of mind-object. Tanha arises at these 10 areas. There are 3 kinds of tanha and they are kaama-tanha or craving for lust, bhava-tanha or craving for existence, and vibhava-tanha or craving for non-existence. These 3 tanhas arise at these 10 places. They are 'cause the truth' or samudaya sacca and they are nothing more than that. They are just dhamma and not a self or atta. 3. 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth' Again 10 contemplations are on self, 10 are on others and another 10 are on 'both self and others' selves'. So there are 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth'. Suffering arise because of craving arising at 10 places. And at these 10 places, all suffering cease to arise as there is no craving at these 10 places (for arahats). 4. 27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 4. 3 contemplations on right action 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration ----- ++27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 1. the knowledge of suffering 2. the knowledge of cause of suffering 3. the knowledge of cessation of suffering 4. the knowledge of Path leading to cessation of suffering 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 1. thinking non-lust or nekkhamma-sankappa 2. thinking non-aversion or abyaapaada-sankappa 3. thinking non-torture or avihimsa-sankappa 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 1. not telling lie or 'musaa-vadaa veramani' 2. not telling divisive speech or 'pisuna-vaacaa veramani' 3. not telling harsh speech or 'pharussa-vaacaa veramani' 4. not telling non-sense speech or 'samphappalaapa veramani' 4. 3 contemplations on right action 1. not killing or 'paanaatipataa veramani' 2. not stealing or 'adinnaadaanaa veramani' 3. not abusing lust or 'kaamesu-micchaacaara veramani' 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 1. avoidance of miccha-ajiiva or wrong-livelihood (living of ariyas) 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 1. mindfulness contemplating on body 2. mindfulness contemplating on feeling 3. mindfulness contemplating on consciousness 4. mindfulness contemplating on dhamma 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration 1. 1st jhaana concentration (concentration freeing hindrances) 2. 2nd jhaana concentration 3. 3rd jhaana concentration 4. 4th jhaana concentration (all aruupa jhaana concentration) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49651 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta ramblings upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - I'm going to attempt a reply again. However messed up it turns out to be, I'll send it. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 00:03:45 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Anatta ramblings Hi Howard Returning home from the city and having another read of your post #49488 (a reply to my earlier post), I can see how foolish I was to ramble on the subject of anatta. ---------------------------------- Howard: Huh? ---------------------------------- I'll try and structure my comments better. I'm interested in your statement that you "have experienced a brief and limited glimpse of no-self ? as reality, not just theory". I fancy that I have too. Possibly as a result of that experience, I find that I can `intellectualise' about anatta without having much sense of it (the `more extreme' view of anatta sometimes expressed on DSG) as absurd and preposterous. And, as a person who is often cynical about, for example, New Age things, this can seem a bit surprising to say the least. Nonetheless, my working hypothesis at the moment includes a high degree of confidence in the following: 1. that anatta is a unique teaching of the Buddha(s); 2. that anatta is a core teaching of the Buddha(s), rather than merely a peripheral teaching or a mind-calming technique or, as Peter Harvey calls it, "a practical teaching aimed at the overcoming of attachment". ---------------------------------- Howard: I agree that the teaching of anatta in its fullness is unique to the Buddha, and I also agree that it is the core of his teachings. As to Harvey, from the two books of his I have read, it is clear to me that he understands anatta to be a reality, and not just a technique. ------------------------------------- When I read in the suttas that an arahant can say things like "I speak" but "skilful, knowing the world's parlance, he uses such terms as mere expressions", I conclude that we worldlings use "I speak" expressions in a different way from arahants, that is, we read into them an abiding permanent self that directs conditionality by making decisions like "now I shall speak". -------------------------------------- Howard: I can only speak for myself. A *sense* of self certainly remains "here", but I do not believe in the *reality* of a self. I do not believe at all that there is a core or soul or controller or observer to be found within this stream of experience I conventionally call "mine". --------------------------------------- So how does speaking happen (for there is no denying that it does)? I suppose there are 2 things to look at to try and discover the illusion afflicting the worldling and not afflicting the arahant: perhaps *what* is doing the speaking is different or perhaps *the way* speaking occurs is different (or both). ---------------------------------------- Howard: To speak of "what" is speaking is to be looking for an agent. What we call "speaking" is an impersonal complex of conditions that arise in dependence on other conditions. Some of these, including volition, effort, attention, craving, sense of self, and more, constitute conventional "deciding". ---------------------------------------- When we go to the Anattalakkhana Sutta, we find that the "I" doesn't abide ? what we take for the "I" is something different. And I believe that the teachings on conditionality and the Abhidhamma show us that the whole process involving this not-"I" is different from our expectations of it. But now I get to the part where words fail me and I can get into trouble. At the outset, I want to say that the comments below shouldn't be read as some sort of rendering and/or refutation of your take on anatta ? I'm not all that confident I fully understand your view to begin with ? especially on the edges. ------------------------------------- Howard: I eagerly await finding out what my view *is*! ;-) ------------------------------------ For the main part, though, I think you and I have a lot of common ground on the subject. I also feel I don't know the Theravada approach well enough to be able to say I agree or disagree with many of these issues. In any event, we both believe we have glimpsed the reality of anatta. ------------------------------------ Howard: What I encountered was an ongoing experiential flow entirely absent of any personal identity. In particular, there was absent any knower, and thus the experiential flow was not something grasped by a knower. So, there was experience without a subject-object split. -------------------------------------- The rest of the time we are theorizing about it. I think that there is a danger in theorizing about anatta. Just as sheep that stray too far from the shepherd get eaten by wolves, anatta- theorists who stray too far from conditionality and D.O. end up with illusory-self again. ------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, conditionality, including D.O., tells the whole story - to the extent that there is any story to tell. -------------------------------------- I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi makes this very point on page 7 of his Intro to the Brahmajala Sutta. "Doings" and "attainments" tend to confirm the idea of a real abiding self, particularly to worldlings who take the conventional expressions of the Buddha at face value and with insufficient regard for the Buddha's teachings on HOW `doings' and `attainments' actually happen ? through conditions and impersonally. Of course, Puggalavadins and followers of Bhikkhu Thanissaro may feel vindicated ? `there you go, anatta is just a technique, not a reality, so it's not surprising that the evidence all leads back to a real abiding self'. --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi. ---------------------------------------- But because I feel confident that anatta is meant to be read as a description of reality, I am not satisfied with theorizing that leads back towards the position of unreality. I ask myself: where, then, is the error in this theorizing that blocks a true realization of anatta? You may be interested to know that my "glimpse" of anatta occurred in a moment of stress when it finally seemed to dawn upon me that volition was a single conditioned factor and nothing like the great emperor I had thought it was. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think that ignorance-conditioned volition, is the direct source of sense of self (and other)! My interpretation of the initial links of D.O. is ignorance --> volition (and other fabricating operations) --> "subjectivity" or sense of knowing self (vi~n~nana). (In the context of D.O., I interpret 'vi~n~nana' to mean not just awareness, but awareness overlaid by sense of self.) -------------------------------------- This was not at the theorizing level ? but it has worked its way into my theorizing. I now tend to see and give voice to a concern that volition should not be swathed in the clothing of illusory-self. The notion of volition is a perfect `back door route' for illusory-self to re-enter the household. ------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed! ------------------------------------- Back to post #49488, it seems you got the impression from my original post that myself and Bhikkhu Dhammapala "think that the idea of anatta requires that worldlings act without consideration". My answer to that is: 1. the term "worldling" is an expression that deludes me in that what I see it as representing is said to be different from what it actually represents; and 2. my understanding of the process wherein and whereby "worldlings act" is said to be different from the actual process. ------------------------------------ Howard: Ultimately there are no worldlings and there is no acting. Conventionally, there are both. It is useful to not be confused by conventional usage, but it is also an error, I believe, to think it is meaningless and to thereby fall into a kind of Buddhist antinomianism. -------------------------------------- So when I see your statement that "the Buddha most definitely urged us to stop and consider before acting", I have before me an expression that I am likely to read in an "unreal" way. ------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is very important to understand the matter fully, grasping both conventioanal meaning and underlying reality. --------------------------------------- If I am correct, you would agree but you consider that one must start a process of wholesome doing where one is at (whereas others on DSG contend that the process you are talking about is most likely to be an unreal/misunderstood one involving `desire for result' that conditions in a direction the worldling `doer' doesn't expect - sorry if I've misunderstood the issues). ---------------------------------------- Howard: I think you read me correctly. As our practice bears fruit, we come to understand more fully. ----------------------------------------- So am I saying we shouldn't stop and consider before acting? Not at all. I am saying that we need to understand that "you should stop and consider" ?type statements are to be seen in the light of the Buddhaword and not just at the level of a conventional sage with atta view. Whether this occurs or not will be determined by a whole range of conditions including one called volition (the king without a crown). ---------------------------------------- Howard: I have no disagreement on this. --------------------------------------- All this may flow if my understanding of Dhamma is correct and, of course, I can't presume to be so sure. I told Herman that I would make a list of the assumptions underlying my thinking about Dhamma at the moment. I am trying and it is a really interesting exercise. But it is taking much time and I have a new work contract to attend to, so finalizing it may be some way down the track. Until then ? Best wishes Andrew T ======================================= With metta, Howard 49652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: natural decisive support condition. nilovg Hi Phil, op 04-09-2005 01:20 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I have been intending to post about this, because I'd like to look > more closely at the difference between the way Rob M writes about > natural decisive support condition and the way Acharn Sujin teaches. It > makes sense to me the way Rob says that conditioning factors that are > recent, repeated, intense have more conditioning power, that they are > more decisive. ------ N: What has been accumulated can be a natural decisive support condition. Lobha is repeated often, it becomes a natural decisive support condition. You do not need to try to have lobha. Recent or long ago, it does not matter. We do not remember the past lives. Nina. 49653 From: nina Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh. Sujin nilovg Dear friends, I find it very obvious that something appears because it has arisen. Why is Kh. Sujin saying this? ------------ Nina: This is very deep and we should really consider this. Don't we forget that when a dhamma appears it can appear because it has arisen? It has arisen because there were conditions for its arising. When we consider this more often we shall have more understanding of the fact that whatever appears is a conditioned dhamma. ****** Nina. 49654 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References buddhatrue Hi Tep (Howard and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > --------------- > >1. There are no dumb jhanas in Buddhism. > > > Jon: As I understand it, the jhana mentioned by the Buddha in the > context of samatha bhavana is the same jhana as was being attained > by people before his enlightenment. > > Tep: I am sorry to say, that is a wrong understanding, Jon. I just want to congratulate you on another truly excellent post. Even thought it was very long I read the whole thing. You know, when you first joined this group I wrote something nasty about you because I found you to be a bit of a show off- writing to everybody and having something to say about everything. Now I regret that I did that because I probably misjudged you. I hope you can forgive me. You and Howard (who I also attacked at first but now respect) write such wonderful posts because you are both older and wiser than myself. I am just a young pup, in comparison, and I fall on a face quite often. It is hard to keep up and I sometimes show my frustration in inappropriate ways. Anyway, just wanted you to know that. I really like this post because you demonstrate that the jhanas taught by the Buddha are unique to the Buddha. Jon and others claim that the Jhanas were practiced before the Buddha in India but I have yet to see one shred of evidence to support this claim! They say it as if the saying will make it true. But, one very important thing that you point out is this quote: "That is why the jhanas are called the 'footprints of the Tathagata' in Majjhima Nikaya 27." Now, could anything else prove that the Jhanas are unique to the Buddha? I don't think so. I challenge Jon to support his contentions with evidence rather than just blank statements. He should realize that, if he is mistaken, he is doing serious harm to the Budddhadhamma for such assertions. This issue cannot be a matter of opinion, it is fact or it is fantasy. Thanks again for a wonderful post. Keep up the good posts and I hope you continue to get into everyone's business all the time! ;-)) Metta, James ps. Post regretfully snipped for brevity. 49655 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > Dear Swee Boon, > > how did I cast doubts on Htoo's faith in the Buddha's word? > > Robertk > > Suppose Htoo is a faith follower of the Dhamma, and he has confidence > in the Buddha's message that practising according to the Satipatthaana > Sutta correctly for seven years would result in non-return or > unbinding. > Suppose Htoo after practising for seven years did not achieve any > supramundane results. > Suppose RobertK came along and tell Htoo: Htoo, did you achieve any > supramundane results after these seven years? My guess is that you > probably didn't. > Suppose Htoo was upset about RobertK's comments, and he begins to > doubt the truthfulness of the Satipatthaana Sutta. Gradually, he > begins to doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. > > Now, is this a wise action on the part of RobertK to put out such a > comment when it might prompt the arising of doubts in another's mind? _______ > >>>Instead of presenting one significant sutta that contradicts DN 22, you chose to cast doubts in Htoo's faith in the Buddha's word. Disappointment, utter disappointment! ___ Dear Swee Boon, Htoo Wrote: Dear Swee Boon, Nina, Sukin and all, I agree with Swee Boon. If one can follow what has been instructed in satipatthaana sutta the fruit will be one of 2 alternatives that is arahat or non-returner. This is possible in 7 days and maximum is 7 years. If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is they do not follow the Path exactly. With Metta, Htoo Naing ___________________________________ Unless I am misunderstanding he has already said that there is something wrong if someone isn't at least an anagami after seven years, so not sure how my comment increases his dobut? My take on that sutta is that to develop staipatthana is exceedingly difficult and sublime. Unfortunately we have many Buddhist who think they are having satipatthana anytime they concentrate on feelings or body etc. One can carry on all their life believing this. It is dangerous - someone with this idea can have some strange exoerience and think they are sotapanna or even higher. That is what delusion does. In fact anyone with pubbekata punnata (accumulations from past lives) who correctly develops satipatthana would certainly attain anagami with seven years, let alone seven years - even seven days. In fact the commentary says great ones could attain even within the time it takes to speak a sentence. This is because a moment of satipatthana is so extraordinary, it is breaking down the idea of a self, breaking down the idea that there is someone who can do something. When the Buddha became enlightened he thought not to teach because he realized how profound is the Dhamma. The commentay poses the question "But he developed the qualities of satipatthana and enlightenment for an incalculably long time, all so he could teach the path. Why should he now hesitate?" And the answer is only when he became a Buddha could he comprehend how difficult it was, few can understand. And now we are in the later stages of the sasana, wrong views and wrong practices are rife. People get excited to think they are making progress, looking for any sign that they think confirms their wisdom. The real way is different, one sees deep defilements, deep delusion and knows just how hard the path is. Then there is a chance that there is motivation to learn what the Buddha really taught . Robertk Swee Boon: >>While I appreciate Khun Sujin I think she is totally out of touch with >>The Great Frames of >>Reference. 49656 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? > Hi Mike, > can you elaborate more? This would be a very good reminder for all of us. I'm really not convinced of the value of these confessional posts, but since you ask-- > Also how you feel personally about cherished delusions and tiresome texts. I'm just accustomed to thinking of upaadaana as a separate factor, conditioned by ta.nhaa (craving; thirst; lust; attachment) and/or lobha (greed; covetousness) but not exactly the same thing, particularly in its role in pa.ticcasamuppaada. I've been in the habit of thinking of it as being 'detached' with regard to vedanaa, unlike ta.nhaa or lobha--that is, a different kind of attachment unrelated to the liking of pleasant feeling (however subtle) I usually associate with lobha. No reason this whim should be of interest to anyone else though, and if the abhidhamma texts say that it is always rooted in greed (or at least always associated with lobhamuulacitta) then I have no reason to doubt it in favor of 'my opinion', 'my insight', 'my intuition' etc., all of which have proven to be so highly unreliable over the years. So, much as I hate to let it go (I suppose this may be aversion conditioned by 'wrong-view clinging') I'll defer to the texts. Never so enjoyable as nursing my cherished delusions though. mike 49657 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Tep & Jon) - -----Original Message----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:24:59 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References Hi Tep (Howard and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > --------------- > >1. There are no dumb jhanas in Buddhism. > > > Jon: As I understand it, the jhana mentioned by the Buddha in the > context of samatha bhavana is the same jhana as was being attained > by people before his enlightenment. > > Tep: I am sorry to say, that is a wrong understanding, Jon. I just want to congratulate you on another truly excellent post. Even thought it was very long I read the whole thing. You know, when you first joined this group I wrote something nasty about you because I found you to be a bit of a show off- writing to everybody and having something to say about everything. Now I regret that I did that because I probably misjudged you. I hope you can forgive me. You and Howard (who I also attacked at first but now respect) write such wonderful posts because you are both older and wiser than myself. I am just a young pup, in comparison, and I fall on a face quite often. It is hard to keep up and I sometimes show my frustration in inappropriate ways. Anyway, just wanted you to know that. ------------------------------------ Howard: Wow! Thanks for including me, James! And I admire the directness and gutsiness of your posts, and the clarity and interestingness of your writing. We don't *always* agree on substance or formulation, though we do agree on many points. And complete agreement would be very boring anyway, eh? ;-) --------------------------------------- I really like this post because you demonstrate that the jhanas taught by the Buddha are unique to the Buddha. Jon and others claim that the Jhanas were practiced before the Buddha in India but I have yet to see one shred of evidence to support this claim! They say it as if the saying will make it true. But, one very important thing that you point out is this quote: "That is why the jhanas are called the 'footprints of the Tathagata' in Majjhima Nikaya 27." Now, could anything else prove that the Jhanas are unique to the Buddha? I don't think so. I challenge Jon to support his contentions with evidence rather than just blank statements. He should realize that, if he is mistaken, he is doing serious harm to the Budddhadhamma for such assertions. This issue cannot be a matter of opinion, it is fact or it is fantasy. Thanks again for a wonderful post. Keep up the good posts and I hope you continue to get into everyone's business all the time! ;-)) Metta, James ps. Post regretfully snipped for brevity. ----------------------------------- Howard: I can think of two modern teachers who, while not in exact agreement, share the idea that the jhanas taught by the Buddha are states quite different from the absorptive states of his predecessors. These two are Sayadaw U Pandita and Venerable Vimalaramsi. In both cases, they view the jhanas taught by the Buddha as stable states in which calm & insight coexist, with investigation of dhammas quite possible from within these heightened states. For me, the sutta detailing the Buddha's liberation from within the base of the 4th jhana and also the the Anupada Sutta pertaining to Sariputta's final awakening are suggestive of such jhanas. =================================== With metta, Howard 49658 From: "rikpa21" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References rikpa21 > Howard: > I can think of two modern teachers who, while not in exact agreement, share the idea that the > jhanas taught by the Buddha are states quite different from the absorptive states of his > predecessors. These two are Sayadaw U Pandita and Venerable Vimalaramsi. In both cases, they view the > jhanas taught by the Buddha as stable states in which calm & insight coexist, with investigation > of dhammas quite possible from within these heightened states. For me, the sutta detailing the > Buddha's liberation from within the base of the 4th jhana and also the the Anupada Sutta pertaining to > Sariputta's final awakening are suggestive of such jhanas. > =================================== > With metta, > Howard Does it matter? 49659 From: "rikpa21" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rikpa21 Knyom chong stap Khun Sujin dey-sna ambpei preah bhut sasasana jia pieasaa Khmer... 49660 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - -----Original Message----- From: rikpa21 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:30:34 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References > Howard: > I can think of two modern teachers who, while not in exact agreement, share the idea that the > jhanas taught by the Buddha are states quite different from the absorptive states of his > predecessors. These two are Sayadaw U Pandita and Venerable Vimalaramsi. In both cases, they view the > jhanas taught by the Buddha as stable states in which calm & insight coexist, with investigation > of dhammas quite possible from within these heightened states. For me, the sutta detailing the > Buddha's liberation from within the base of the 4th jhana and also the the Anupada Sutta pertaining to > Sariputta's final awakening are suggestive of such jhanas. > =================================== > With metta, > Howard Does it matter? ==================================== Does what matter? The position of these venerables in the sense of serving as proof? No. That doesn't constitute proof. More persuasive to me is the content of certain suttas. But, in any case, I don't know the truth of this issue. If, on the other hand, you are questioning whether it matters whether the "Buddha's jhanas" are the same or different from his predecessors, well, yes, I'd say that certainly matters. With metta, Howard 49661 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta ramblings corvus121 Hi Howard A quick reply to thank you for your comments - which got through the computer wrangle okay. I think it confirms that we do indeed have alot of common ground on this difficult topic. BTW I realise that I may well be kidding myself to have glimpsed anatta on a deeper level than the intellectual - so it's a notion I don't cling to! Howard: > Ultimately there are no worldlings and there is no acting. Conventionally, there are both. It is > useful to not be confused by conventional usage, but it is also an error, I believe, to think it is > meaningless and to thereby fall into a kind of Buddhist antinomianism. I'm sorry but I don't really understand the above. An Antinomian is "one who maintains that the moral law is not binding upon Christians, under the law of grace 1645". How is it that one who acknowledges the shortcomings of conventional usages is a Buddhist Antinomian? I must admit, I am still a little confused by the Theravada position on to what extent conventional usages are "usefully" "meaningful" for worldlings. Is it an either/or situation - we either use them in a deluded manner or we don't? Where is the space for fence-sitting here? If you have any insight on this, Howard (or anyone), I'd be grateful to hear it. Back to work ... Best wishes Andrew T 49662 From: "rikpa21" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References rikpa21 > If, on the other hand, you are questioning whether it matters whether the "Buddha's jhanas" are > the same or different from his predecessors, well, yes, I'd say that certainly matters. > With metta, > Howard I am of the opinion it hardly matters. But opinions are akin onions, peel them far enough and you'll find your prejudice :) 49663 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I was touched by your special email that was so open and very friendly. Well, it is true that you did not like the "Mr. Know-all" behavior of mine. Because of that I need to ask you to accept my apology too. Of course, I accept your aplogy for writing "something nasty" about me in the past, but I already forgave you for that. Beyond that little mistake, I think you are a fine young and energetic Buddhist and I always highly value your thought and feedback on the Dhamma. Thank you for voting for that post I wrote to Jon about jhanas. You clearly understand the main point of the debate; i.e. the jhana system taught by Lord Buddha is very special because the path to Nibbana is intertwined with jhanas. Whenever the Lord emphasized concentration (samadhi), he meant at least one jhana. The right concentration means only the four jhanas, period. The mentioning of "great wisdom" that rests upon the four jhanas is also another confirmation on the uniqueness of the Buddha's special contribution to the world. There are no dumb jhanas taught by the Buddha. Jon will have a hard time disproving all the above. > James : I hope you continue to get into everyone's business all the time! ;-)) Tep: A wise man once said : 'one who speaks too much, makes a lot of enemies'. I think one reason is that one who speaks a lot, unavoidably makes a lot of mistakes. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep (Howard and Jon), > (snipped) > > I really like this post because you demonstrate that the jhanas > taught by the Buddha are unique to the Buddha. Jon and others claim that the Jhanas were practiced before the Buddha in India but I have yet to see one shred of evidence to support this claim! They say it as if the saying will make it true. But, one very important thing > that you point out is this quote: > > "That is why the jhanas are called the 'footprints of the > Tathagata' in Majjhima Nikaya 27." > > Now, could anything else prove that the Jhanas are unique to the > Buddha? I don't think so. I challenge Jon to support his > contentions with evidence rather than just blank statements. He > should realize that, if he is mistaken, he is doing serious harm to > the Budddhadhamma for such assertions. This issue cannot be a > matter of opinion, it is fact or it is fantasy. 49664 From: "rikpa21" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 5:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References rikpa21 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > -----Original Message----- > From: rikpa21 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:30:34 -0000 > Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References > > > > Howard: > > I can think of two modern teachers who, while not in exact > agreement, share the idea that the > > jhanas taught by the Buddha are states quite different from the > absorptive states of his > > predecessors. These two are Sayadaw U Pandita and Venerable > Vimalaramsi. In both cases, they view the > > jhanas taught by the Buddha as stable states in which calm & > insight coexist, with investigation > > of dhammas quite possible from within these heightened states. For > me, the sutta detailing the > > Buddha's liberation from within the base of the 4th jhana and also > the the Anupada Sutta pertaining to > > Sariputta's final awakening are suggestive of such jhanas. > > =================================== > > With metta, > > Howard > > Does it matter? > ==================================== > Does what matter? The position of these venerables in the sense of serving as proof? No. That > doesn't constitute proof. More persuasive to me is the content of certain suttas. But, in any case, > I don't know the truth of this issue. > If, on the other hand, you are questioning whether it matters whether the "Buddha's jhanas" are > the same or different from his predecessors, well, yes, I'd say that certainly matters. > With metta, > Howard The imagined Buddha's jahnas mean nothing, unless there is some concrete value you can attach to them, like your life is better in a qualitative way than otherwise. Modifying mental states, big deal... 49665 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 7:23pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh. Sujin philofillet Hi Nina, Lodewijk and all > Lodewijk: as to the words: touched, do people have direct understanding of the truth, namely, that > hardness which is experienced by touch appears because it has arisen, and > that if hardness does not arise it cannot be experienced by touch? > I find > it very obvious that something appears because it has arisen. Why is Kh. > Sujin saying this? > ------------ > Nina: This is very deep and we should really consider this. Don't we forget > that when a dhamma appears it can appear because it has arisen? It has > arisen because there were conditions for its arising. When we consider this > more often we shall have more understanding of the fact that whatever > appears is a conditioned dhamma. Yes, I think we can never reflect on this often enough. It is one of the aspects that go against the way of the world and form huge impediments to understanding - how difficult it is for us to understand that this body, this table, this computer are not objects that have lasting presence, which is how they of course appear, but are arising and falling away. We know that only in theory, but we are always swept away by ignorance of it, so every moment of being reminded is helpful. And when we hear that something has arisen we can remember that something else has necessarily fallen away. In the space of writing this sentence, rupa has fallen away and rearisen countless times. Sure, right, the non-believer says. I wonder why there is such doubt there, because after all even in science we know this to be the case. There is no chair, scientifically (atoms and molecules) just as there is no person, scientifically. (More atoms and molecules, with conditioned mental factors as well.) The skeptic turns to science to disprove Dhamma. But in this case, science only makes Dhamma clearer. Of course there is no chair. Of course there is no self. How can there be any doubt upon reflection? And for this reflection, we need to be reminded again and again, either by a teacher or by our own accumulated understanding, that whatever rises falls away again in that very moment. So yes, very obvious in a sense, but how quickly we forget the obvious and are swept away in concepts. It's obvious (to most people who undersand Dhamma) that people do not exist in reality, to understand this basic truth in theory, but how often do we remember that? The more reminders the better. I also like to remember that when we think that whatever appears has arisen, there is also something that has fallen away. The flux that only the Buddha could penetrate, the flux that we can begin to understand to a tiny degree but to a much greater degree in theory, the flux that we must understand to whatever degree we can (not want to) in order to begin to make tiny steps towards liberation. BTW, Nina, thanks for you feedback in the other threads. And thanks again to Lodewijk for his reading of Perfections. It is so encouraging to hear him read the sutta that I love so - it *is* possible to eradicate the unwholesome and cultivate the wholesome. If it were not, the Buddha would not tell us to do so. We must be so patient, but this sutta encourages us. Phil 49666 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta ramblings upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - -----Original Message----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:51:24 -0000 Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta ramblings Hi Howard A quick reply to thank you for your comments - which got through the computer wrangle okay. I think it confirms that we do indeed have alot of common ground on this difficult topic. BTW I realise that I may well be kidding myself to have glimpsed anatta on a deeper level than the intellectual - so it's a notion I don't cling to! Howard: > Ultimately there are no worldlings and there is no acting. Conventionally, there are both. It is > useful to not be confused by conventional usage, but it is also an error, I believe, to think it is > meaningless and to thereby fall into a kind of Buddhist antinomianism. I'm sorry but I don't really understand the above. An Antinomian is "one who maintains that the moral law is not binding upon Christians, under the law of grace 1645". How is it that one who acknowledges the shortcomings of conventional usages is a Buddhist Antinomian? -------------------------------- Howard: One who goes beyond recognizing the non-ultimate status of conventional usage to the point of saying that inasmuch as there "really" are no persons, there is no harm done by doing what is called "harming others". After all, one could argue the logic of that position, couldn't one? There was a group at the Buddha's time, roundly criticized by him, that, taking this to an extreme, maintained that since bodies are "unreal" there is no problem in putting a sword through one! On a less extreme note, one can argue that since there are no persons, there can be no objects of metta, mudita, and karuna! More simply, any time one speaks of following the Buddha's instructions, one could reply the Buddha couldn't have meant what he said literally, for there are no persons to "do" anything! --------------------------------------- I must admit, I am still a little confused by the Theravada position on to what extent conventional usages are "usefully" "meaningful" for worldlings. Is it an either/or situation - we either use them in a deluded manner or we don't? Where is the space for fence-sitting here? If you have any insight on this, Howard (or anyone), I'd be grateful to hear it. ----------------------------------- Howard: I haven't much to say at this point. I think I'll let others weigh in on this matter. ------------------------------------ Back to work ... Best wishes Andrew T ================================== With metta, Howard 49667 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 8:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References christine_fo... Hello Tep, Jon, Howard, James, Eric, all, I am finding this very interesting. As you may have read in a recent post of mine, I am listening to the Dhamma Talks by Ajahn Brahmavamso on Jhanas. Tep - though you have given many quotes from the suttas about Jhanas - can you point me to the particular quote that shows that these Jhanas are different in any way to the ones (mentioned in MN 26.15/16 "Ariyapariyesanaa Sutta") that Siddartha Gotama learned from Aa.laara Kaalaama and Uddaka Raamaputta before he was enlightened, and, being satisfied that the Jhanas in themselves were not the answer, went away 'still in search'. He came to Senaanigama near Uruvelaa, found an agreeable piece of ground, a delightful grove with a clear-flowing river with pleasant, smooth banks and a nearby village for alms resort. He sat down there thinking: 'This will serve for striving.' And the rest of the story is in MN 36 The Greater Discrourse to Saccaka, including the ascetic practices, and the remembrance of entering the first jhana as a child. Eric - nice to see the old 'rikpa21' I.D. once again :-) - a coincidence - I was trawling through the Archives ( wandering, lost, somewhere in the debates of April/ May 2001) and came across an old post of yours from when you went to see the Dalai Lama in Salt Lake City. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5226 metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49668 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 9:59pm Subject: Erik with a K! (Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References) sarahprocter... Hi Erik!! (Chris, Howard & all), --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Eric - nice to see the old 'rikpa21' I.D. once again :-) - a > coincidence - I was trawling through the Archives ( wandering, lost, > somewhere in the debates of April/ May 2001) and came across an old > post of yours from when you went to see the Dalai Lama in Salt Lake > City. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5226 ... S: What a very nice surprise! We think of you often (especially last time we were in Koh Samui). Really hope you and family are well and inmpatiently hoping you'll let us all know where you are and what you're up to these days (mundane and not so mundane-wise). Obviously you're speaking Khymer.... Look forward to your continued input on threads....I know Howard, Dan and many other oldies will appreciate this too. Best regards to Eath (your wife) too. Metta, Sarah p.s a name at the end does save a little confusion round here:). Thanks Chris for clarifying.... =============================== 49669 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? christine_fo... Hello Htoo, all, This is interesting Htoo ... but, as I understand the teachings, it would be necessary to live close to someone for a long time, observing their speech and action, before coming to any conclusion about whether they would be suitable as a Good Friend and companion. How much more observation and assessing should occur before one accepts someone's claims about their own exalted spiritual state ....? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello Htoo, Howard, Nina, all, > > > > Thank you for the clarifying information in your posts - very > > helpful. > > > > metta and peace, > > Chris > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Christine, > > He is amazing. I have been exchanging mails with him. I have noticed > people like ABC_Enlightenment, Bhante Vimalaramsi, Sukin, Nina, Kel, > Amara, Connie, Rob M, and many others are good at writing and Dhamma. > But what I see in this man (Daniel) is that he does not have almost > any flaws in his messages (mails) both in writing and dhamma contents > unlike others who otherwise made minor flaws including typos, > contents, and emotion. One thing I do not agree is just 'the claim of > being arahat'. > > With many thanks, > > Htoo Naing 49670 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Sutta query: Where does it say this ....? christine_fo... Hello all, I was reading an article by Ajahn Brahmavamso. PATICCA-SAMUPPADA - DEPENDENT ORIGINATION http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=65 In it he states: ""Some Western Buddhists have proposed that the 'forward' order of Paticca-samuppada can be halted by 'cutting' the process between vedana and tanha. Often I have heard some suggest that rebirth can be avoided through using sati (mindfulness) on vedana to stop it generating tanha and the following factors of Paticca-samuppada. This is, in my understanding, misconceived on two grounds. First, the 'forward' order of Paticca-samuppada was never intended to demonstrate how the process should be 'cut'. The 'forward' order is only meant to show how the process continues. The teaching on how the process is 'cut', or rather ceases, is the purpose reserved for the 'reverse' order of Paticca-samuppada or `Dependent Cessation'. Secondly, even though vedana does not inevitably produce tanha, because it is not a sufficient condition, it is well stated by The Buddha that only when avijja ceases once and for all does vedana never generate tanha ! This means that one doesn't `cut' the process using sati on vedana. Sati is not enough. The process stops from the cessation of avijja, as Dependent Cessation makes abundantly clear. The cessation of avijja is much more than the practice of sati". ----------------------------------------------- Are there any suttas where this point has been mentioned: "Secondly, even though vedana does not inevitably produce tanha, because it is not a sufficient condition, it is well stated by The Buddha that only when avijja ceases once and for all does vedana never generate tanha !" metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49671 From: "frank" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 11:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sutta query: Where does it say this ....? dhamma_service Hi Chris, This is an interesting question. A.Brahm is probably referring to the numerous references of only an arahant with the destruction of the taints (3 asavas - sensuality, existence, aviija/ignorance) would no longer have tanha arising. An arahant who has not yet attained parinibbana is still subject to experiencing vedana/feeling aggregate, and painful feeling. The difference is that the arahant does not react to physical painful feeling with tanha/aversion and add mental suffering on top of the physical suffering. The dart sutta in the samyatta describes this brilliantly. It further strengthens my confidence of my interpretations of the pali suttas seeing that A.brahm inferred exactly the same conclusions I did about dependent origination and the role of mindfulness of vedana. I don't believe there are sutta references where the Buddha states Brahm's conclusions explicitly like that. Those conclusions are inferences and reading between the lines. A minor point that I might differ with A.Brahm is that I believe a non-returner with the destruction of the taint of sensuality (but not yet destruction of the taint of aviija/ignorance) possibly qualifies for the elimination of tanha in the PS chain and the cutting off of dukkha that arises. The non-returner still has very subtle conceit of self, and still has to experience with the very minor dukkha of one last rebirth in one of the brahma realms before attaining nibbana without remainder. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christine Forsyth Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 7:55 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Sutta query: Where does it say this ....? Hello all, I was reading an article by Ajahn Brahmavamso. PATICCA-SAMUPPADA - DEPENDENT ORIGINATION http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=65 In it he states: ""Some Western Buddhists have proposed that the 'forward' order of Paticca-samuppada can be halted by 'cutting' the process between vedana and tanha. Often I have heard some suggest that rebirth can be avoided through using sati (mindfulness) on vedana to stop it generating tanha and the following factors of Paticca-samuppada. This is, in my understanding, misconceived on two grounds. First, the 'forward' order of Paticca-samuppada was never intended to demonstrate how the process should be 'cut'. The 'forward' order is only meant to show how the process continues. The teaching on how the process is 'cut', or rather ceases, is the purpose reserved for the 'reverse' order of Paticca-samuppada or `Dependent Cessation'. Secondly, even though vedana does not inevitably produce tanha, because it is not a sufficient condition, it is well stated by The Buddha that only when avijja ceases once and for all does vedana never generate tanha ! This means that one doesn't `cut' the process using sati on vedana. Sati is not enough. The process stops from the cessation of avijja, as Dependent Cessation makes abundantly clear. The cessation of avijja is much more than the practice of sati". ----------------------------------------------- Are there any suttas where this point has been mentioned: "Secondly, even though vedana does not inevitably produce tanha, because it is not a sufficient condition, it is well stated by The Buddha that only when avijja ceases once and for all does vedana never generate tanha !" metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49672 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 10:04pm Subject: The Burning Five ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Clusters of Clinging are Burning with Ignorance! Friends, form is burning, feeling is burning, perception is burning, mental constructions are burning, and consciousness is burning... Burning with what? Burning with Greed. Burning with Hate. Burning with Ignorance. Burning with rebirth. Burning with ageing. Burning with decay. Burning with sickness & pain. Burning with death. I tell you: Burning with Misery...!!! Understanding this fully, friends, the instructed Noble Disciple is disgusted with form, is disgusted with feeling, is disgusted with perception, is disgusted with all mental constructions, and is also disgusted even with consciousness... This experience of deep disgust, brings disillusion & disenchantment. Through this disillusion, mind is all released! When it is liberated, then there appears the assurance: 'This mind is freed' and one instantly understands: Birth is now ended, this Noble Life is fully concluded, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond this... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:61 III 71 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49673 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 0:38am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 266- Wrong View/di.t.thi (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives the following definition of wrong view, diììhi: * "… It has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 164) gives a similar definition of diììhi. The Dhammasangaùi (§38) calls diììhi a “wrong road” and the Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains: * "… From being not the right path, it is a “wrong path”. For just as one who is gone astray, although he holds that this is the path to such a village, does not arrive at a village, so a man of false opinions, although he holds that this is the path to a happy destiny, cannot get there; hence from being not the right path it is a wrong path…" * Diììhi has unwise conviction(1) as characteristic. When there is diììhi one clings to a false view of reality. Its function is “perversion”(2): because of diììhi one takes for permanent what is impermanent, one takes for self what is not self. Ignorance covers up the true nature of realities and wrong view sees them wrongly, in a distorted way. Diììhi is a factor of the wrong Path. If one follows the wrong Path defilements cannot be eradicated and thus there will be no end to the cycle of birth and death. *** 1 In Påli: ayoniso abhinivesa, unwise inclination, unwise adhering. 2 In Påli: paråmasa, derived from paråmasati, to touch, to hold on to, to be attached or fall a victim to. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49674 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo) sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > Sukinder: > > I too believe that depending on the level of practice and other > conditions, pativedha can arise in 7 years, 7 months, 7 days, 7 > minutes or even 7 seconds. But are we in agreement? I don't think so, > because I do not agree at all with Swee Boon's points. You say that > you do, which would include the following statements: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please check what The Buddha said as 'yo hi koci'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sukinder: On the level of `theory' we could say that the Buddha's Teachings is for "everyone". Yet you know that many find agreeable much of what He said, but would insist on seeing for example, that the anatta principle as being mere `technique' used as a means to achieve liberation, when `anatta' is in fact the unique teaching of the Buddha. Also there are those who would disagree almost entirely with the Teachings, even when the Buddha was alive. I like to consider that the Tipitaka is the Buddha's teachings only in so far as there are an audience to correctly understand it, otherwise its just words. So is it in fact *for everyone*? I don't think so, though different people will benefit from it as according to their own accumulations and understanding. Now even for one individual, me, when I read any Dhamma, there are moments of understanding, no understanding and misunderstanding, all arising beyond control. Often I am aware of the inability to grasp a point and sometimes there is straining to understand, but it does not happen. Or in fact it may, but then this will be of the present arising dhamma, e.g. I may note the wrong view involved and give up trying. I learn from this that dhammas can't be controlled and any attempt to control them most likely gives rise to akusala than any kusala, let alone sati and panna. Yet if indeed panna did arise, then it would be in spite of the `trying', perhaps because one has developed the habit of not trying to `catch' dhammas ;-). Now the level of sati and panna involved in satipatthana (patipatti) is higher than pariyatti and is in fact build upon it. At different moments we may understand the descriptions of Dhamma with varying levels of understanding, yet all this is having `definite' words, concepts, as object. Satipatthana has ephemeral dhammas as object, hence much more difficult to arise. Moreover the self is conditioned to grasp at labels and descriptions, so even when it does not want to, it projects a `thing' onto experiences. This is especially true when there is a desire to experience. So while some people question the need to study, arguing that the word is not the actual experience, I think that Dhamma study is on the whole safer than the concept of `formal practice'. The former will admit to having only intellectual understanding and so still be open to the possibility of real practice. The latter on the other hand, mistaking the true nature of the experiences, i.e. he may take lobha for sati, wrong view for right view, concept for reality, is turning his back to the *real* patipatti even when he keeps on talking about and doing his "practice"! So Htoo, is the Satipatthana Sutta in fact for all, is the Dhamma, for all? Or is it only for those who understand correctly. But you may be alluding to the fact that Dhamma is the "one and only way", in which case "all must walk this path if enlightenment is ever to be achieved", then yes, I agree. But I think you mean something else and this is why you said: > Htoo: I agree with Swee Boon. Yes. ANYONE. The Buddha did not talked > accumulations in mahaasatipatthaana sutta. sukinder: Someone can mistake the meaning and come to the conclusion that the Buddha considered `accumulations' elsewhere but not when he taught this particular Sutta. Or someone may think that prior to this, the Buddha taught some other practice and not satipatthana. Or it could be seen as implying that the Buddha *finally* came out with a "program of practice" based on the idea of satipatthana for a greater and more general audience. But you wouldn't be implying any of this would you? Nor would you have any reservation about his omniscience? -------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > > Do you agree with the part about "past accumulations"? If so, the > obvious question is, what about the distinction between ti-hetuka and > dvi-hetuka individuals? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I know this would be theoretical as we cannot know who is tihetuka > and who is dvihetuka. > > But obviously dvihetuka will not be able to follow the Path exactly. > > Here you might say that 'Htoo believes there is a particular Path and > that Path has to be followed. That Htoo's belief is siilabbataparaamaasa.' sukinder: ;-) Yes, this is what I think, that you imply a `person walking a path' in a conventional sense, because you seem to deny the fact that the path is walked only when there is right understanding. At other times there will be all levels of akusala or other forms of kusala. But then there can also be taking a path other than the right one, in which case there is the danger of being driven further away from the right path. Are you stating that on the whole, perhaps because one has a `good teacher', that one would generally move in the right direction? Isn't it much better to have a correct pariyatti about what is and what is not the Path than to follow the wrong one with the hope that `corrections' will take place. I think this is just wishful thinking. Better correct one's views NOW. It is in this that the very idea of formal sitting seems wrong to me and there is therefore no inclination to follow. Anyway, I asked the following and you said you didn't understand, so I will explain. > Sukin: > Do you think that what is in fact needed for patipatti to arise often > enough to condition actualization of the above estimates, is any > *deliberate watchfulness*? What paccaya would you put this in? sukinder: I was talking about having some level of right understanding at the pariyatti level and stating that even with this, patipatti almost never arises. However, in accordance to what I believe to be correct pariyatti, I think that *no* decision can be made in relation to this realization, in terms of *doing* something about it. You on the other hand seem to say that the decision *can* be made to follow the Satipatthana Sutta as if it were a program of practice. This of course is related to the descriptive/prescriptive view towards the entire Teachings. I believe that everything is about conditionality and so satipatthana can arise only when the right conditions are in place. I don't see the `decision' to formal practice as being a reflection of such understanding. I therefore wanted to know from you what you thought were the `conditions' involved when one makes a decision to `be mindful'. And what other conditions there might be in any decision to `maintain' an ongoing practice that would eventually lead to becoming enlightened in 7 years, 7 months and so on. I'll end here and await your further response, unless you want me to react to some other points in your post? Metta, Sukinder 49675 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 1:19am Subject: Anatta and non-monastics (was: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > It is nice to correspond with you- especially since I am almost > always writing to Sarah! ;-) > Hallo James (and Sarah, participant honoris causa) In fact we have three points of discussion now: (1) is the difference in 'lifestyle' between monastics and laypeople absolute (your opinion) or relative (my opinion) ? I'm not sure this theme gives a fruitful discussion, I have not enough empirical facts, monastics doesn't play a role in my country. All I want to say now is that there is a big difference within the lifestyle of non-monastics (I don't like the term 'laypeople'): some living very strongly according sensual pleasures and some rather light. I now live in the lucky situation in which those pleasures don't play such a big role: old (66), retired, financial security, no regret that I missed things in my life. The same with 'hatred', the second of the roots! (2) Is anatta a very important, the most important, doctrine of Buddhism; or is it one of the doctrines? I'm really surprised people (in DSG) talk so much about anatta without combining it immediately with 'dukkha' and 'anicca'. For me these three belong to each other. To me - and that is a psychological matter - anicca is more important than anatta and experiencing the truth of anicca is more difficult than that of anatta. (3) Is anatta very very very dificult to realize? The way you (and perhaps also Howard as you quote him) talk about it, anatta is a kind of 'mental state' IN which one can be, like in jhana. Is that correct? To me it's a truth. There are situations in which I hardly experience this truth ('daily life') and there are situations in which I experience it (in insight-meditation, in the hospital when I'm partly anaesthesized). I don't think I'm one of the very few, it are the 'strong personalities' who have a problem; and again: my problem is not anatta but anicca. I get the impression that for you (and perhaps other DSG-people) experiencing anatta is (nearly) the same as getting a enlightenment- experience ia the Zen-way (satori); is that correct? (What is really difficult is to combine the truth of anatta with the idea of rebirth; the solution I have with this problematic combination is that I'm so interested in my future, not in my life and not after my death. Is an answer without quotes, but this is more easy to say what I think. And it has enough to do with your message, don't you think so? Metta Joop 49676 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Herman, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Nina and Herman - > > Thanks to Herman for presenting an important issue on heat-base and > raiseing the question whether everything in the commentaries and > Commentaries are trustworthy. > > Herman: As a brief summary for those without the time or inclination to > read the essay, the author argues, from the texts, that the Buddha was > silent on the seat of consciousness, but that from various others > references the conclusion that the whole body (namarupa) is the seat > of consciousness is not unwarranted. > [ quoted from the essay whose link was given by Herman: ] > "If our analysis is correct, then we must see the identification of the > heart-base as the seat of consciousness during the post-Buddhian > period as a gross misrepresentation of the Buddha, in violation of the > Buddha's advice not to be led by "tradition" or "the authority of > religious > texts" (Kaalaama Sutta) ." .... S: I started reading the article. The main point the author seems to be making is that references to 'haddaya' (heart) in the suttas cannot possibly be referring to the rupa, haddaya vatthu. I don't think anyone disagrees with this. It's like in English, when we say 'my heart aches for you', we're not referring to the physical heart so much as to a mental state of commiseration. Many of the details contained in the Abhidhamma, particularly the Patthana, are not specifically mentioned in the Suttanta. Does this mean our own ignorant speculations (such as 'the whole body (namarupa) is the seat of consciousness') are therefore more plausible? There are a number of misconceptions in the article, I think, including the comments which he suggested were added to Buddhaghosa's at the beginning of the article. What does it mean anyway to say 'the whole body (namarupa) is the seat of consciousness' or elsewhere that 'the mind is in the heart'? .... > Tep: How do you know, Nina, that it is not the "whole body" that is > the "seat of consciousness"? Or something else? Why only the "heart- > base" (an imagined object) can be the seat of consciousness where > objects are experienced? Only this is right, all others are false? ... S: Tep, what do YOU mean here by 'whole body' and can you give me a sutta reference to support this idea of 'the whole body' being the seat? Do you mean the 'seat' of all kinds of consciousness or which? .... > > We need to look at the suttas to find the answer, or reject the heart- > basis issue altogether if there is no sutta ecidence to support it. ... S: I don't mind looking at any suttas or any part (short parts) of the article you or Herman want to post and discuss. I apologise in advance for being slow, however, as I'm behind on replies and other Dhamma-related tasks. Like Nina, I'll also be getting ready for our trip during the month too. Tep, do you have any further comments on any of the letters on 'haddaya-vatthu' in UP? Thanks to Herman for giving the link to the article. If either of you want to post it in (very) short installments, that's also fine...there's a lot of meat in it. Hopefully, others like Htoo and RobK will also add their comments if so. Most of all, I'd like to clarify your own understanding of the points. Tep, would you care to give one of your summaries? Hopefully, others like Htoo and RobK will also add their comments if so. Metta, Sarah ======== 49677 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 sarahprocter... Hi KKT, Howard, Swee Boon, Herman, Chris & all, A belated contribution to this thread and the sutta KKT gave the reference for: --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > KKT: Here is an extract from > "The Message of the Buddha" > by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: > > While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory > from Determinism, he also faced the question of > free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN > TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin > (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told > him that he was of the opinion that there was no > free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or > others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and > asked him how he could say such a thing when he > himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up > to the Buddha and walk away from him. <...> (Anguttara Nikaya III. > 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). .... S: AN Bk of 6s, viii(38),PTS 'Self-acting'(Attakaara Sutta) Herman gave a translation in #48434 'The one who is doing' The brahman's comment: natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaroti 'there is no self-agency; no other-agency' PTS gives a footnote to say this was Makkhali Gosala's heresy. More on this can be read in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta. He was one of the 6 teachers whose views were given by King Ajattasattu. He didn't believe in conditions of kamma at all. BB translation from the Samannaphala Sutta under 'The Doctrine of Makkhali Gosala': "...Makkhali Gosala said to me: 'Great king, there is no cause or condition for the defilement of beings; beings are defiled without any cause or condition. There is no cause or condition for the purification of beings; beings are purified without cause or condition. There is no self-determination, no determination by others, no personal determination. There is no power, no energy, no personal strength, no personal fortitude. All sentient beings, all living beings, all creatures, all souls, are helpless, powerless, devoid of energy. Undergoing transformation by destiny, circumstance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six classes of men. .... "Though one might think: 'by this moral discipline or observance or austerity or holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma whenever it comes up' - that cannot be. For pleasure and pain are measured out. Samsara's limits are fixed, and they can neither be shortened or extended. There is no advancing forward and no falling back. Just as, when a ball of string is thrown, it rolls along unwinding until it comes to its end, in the same way, the foolish and the wise roam and wander (for the fixed length of time), after which them make an end to suffering.' " **** S: Clearly this is the worst of wrong views because someone who believes it makes no difference at all how one acts can do anything at all -- the results will be the same. In the AN sutta, the Buddha replies that he has never seen or heard of such a view and proceeds to dispel it. The word translated as free-will in KKT's post or initiative in the PTS translation is aarabbhadhaatu and PTS gives a note: aarabbha, gerund of aaraadheti, to set on foot; dhaatu, element. Herman asked for another rendering of a phrase in his translation given as:'This is the being doing and the otherness'. PTS gives: 'There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency' as I quoted above, to be understood in the context of Makkhali Gosala's view. > Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism > UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL > CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. > As a result Buddhism has been represented by some > Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of > their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma > as well as the doctrine of causation. .... S: I'd prefer to say that the Buddha taught us that all dhammas, all elements are conditioned but not pre-determined. It is not fatalistic because good thoughts and deeds (as well as bad ones of course) are accumulated and bring results. However, 'free-will' is a misnomer as it suggests there is 'something' apart from conditioned dhammas, whereas the Buddha taught that the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbana. Metta, Sarah p.s KKT, I was very glad to see you around -- please do post more!! ========= 49678 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 4:26am Subject: Anatta and non-monastics - Joop gazita2002 hello Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo James (and Sarah, participant honoris causa) > > ....snip.... hope you don't mind, Joop, as it is only this one I want to comment on: > (2) Is anatta a very important, the most important, doctrine of > Buddhism; or is it one of the doctrines? > I'm really surprised people (in DSG) talk so much about anatta > without combining it immediately with 'dukkha' and 'anicca'. For me > these three belong to each other. To me - and that is a psychological > matter - anicca is more important than anatta and experiencing the > truth of anicca is more difficult than that of anatta. azita: I think you have a very good point here. They sure belong to each other. I was once told that the greatest dukkha is anicca, I was a bit puzzled about that and asked why. The answer: we take for permanent what is impermanent. Intellectually I think most discerning people can understand that - we all die eventually. However the impermanence that the Buddha spoke of is much harder to discern. I think its called Sammasananana, knowledge of nama and rupa as anicca, dukkha and anatta. This is wisdom, knowledge, of a degree higher than the wisdom that knows the difference bet nama and rupa. You say that anicca is more important to you than anatta, Joop. Do you think that due to our immensely varying accummulations, one being could understand more of one of these aspects than another being? BTW did you know your name is the same as one of the popular perfumes sold here in Australia :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita 49679 From: nina Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 5:40am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 189 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 189. 189. (c) 'According to period': any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called 'present'. Previous to that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'. ****** N: Period is the translation of samaya which can mean: time, moment, occasion, opportunity or condition. We read further on in the Tiika that Œany period¹(ta..mta.msamayanti) ( that occurs as a continuity) refers to ruupa. As to the expression previous to that is 'past', means, that it has accomplished the moments [of arising, presence and falling away]. As to future: this refers to ruupa that has not yet arisen (anuppannattaa). **** Ruupa lasts seventeen moments longer than citta. There is the arising moment, the moments of its presence and the moment of its falling away. ******* We read in the ŒExpositor² (p. 78):