50800 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/29/05 3:02:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > No escape from dukkha if > there is no right understanding what the eightfold Path is and in what way, > at what time it can be developed. If not now, when? > ===================== This made me smile. There is a well known teaching of a great rabbi, I think it may have been Hillel, with regard to practice. It is along the following lines: "If I am not for myself, who will be? If I am for myself alone, what am I? If not now, when?" (The last sentence of the quote pertains to doing what needs to be done.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50801 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Satori? buddhatrue Hi Tep (and All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > You asked: > >Is there anything like 'Satori' in the Theravada tradition? > > If you mean a "flash of sudden awareness"= "brief experience of > Enlightenment", then I think the answer is I don't know (no sutta > evidence that I know of). If you mean an "experience of infinite space", > then the answer is yes (there are sutta evidences). > > What is your thought? Perhaps I should have defined 'Satori' first. I don't like the definition you found on the Internet- satori is not the feeling of infinite space. Let me quote from a book I am currently reading 'The Complete Book of Zen' by Wong Kiew Kit (which surprisingly I found here in Cairo): "What is a satori or kensho experience like? The following is an example from an unnamed schoolteacher: 'My hand stretched to the watch on the desk, and I picked it up. At that moment, I encountered a very strange phenomenon. The watch seemed to be a part of me. There was no differentation between my hand and the watch. Truly, and extraordinary feeling! It was quite a different sensation from my ordinary routine one, and it impressed me strongly. I kept looking at the watch for some moments in amazement. The watch was its usual shape and gold color, and as far as these qualities were concerned, it was quite a different thing from my hand, which was holding it. Yet in another dimensional quality, it was not different from my hand.'" (Kit, 34) James: I ask this question because I have had satori experiences, in exact nature to the one described above, twice in my life. Once it lasted for several hours during a time when I had been doing intense meditation and once for only a few minutes at the end of a 10-day meditation retreat. The experience was like looking at everything and knowing that I was looking at myself (it also involved the other senses). That everything around me was in face "me". These satori experiences were also accompanied by a feeling of relief and a lack of fear (I didn't even know how much fear I had buried down inside me!! until I had these experiences during which the fear went away). I haven't encoutered anything like this in the suttas either, but I was wondering if there is any reference in the commentaries and other texts. This is an expert group in those matters so I thought I would ask. I know that satori are real because I have experienced them, and I suspect that they are a glimpse of enlightenment because they were associated/linked to my meditation practice, but I am not making any firm decisions about it. Just asking questions. Thanks for any input. Metta, James 50802 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:26am Subject: Re: Doing dana with wisdom? rjkjp1 --- Thank you for the inspiring example, KH. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "khcheah33" wrote: > Hi all, > > I like to relate a "dana encounter" with one Mr Suresh, an Indian > food-stall owner friend of mine during my lunch break yesterday. > Hope this will be of interest to some Dhamma friends. > > 50803 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 Hi Tep, I'm going to skip over your ad hominem attacks which really have no place on dsg and skip over empty comments of the variety "Sutta X says, 'blah blah blah.' I wholeheartedly agree. Therefore, the commentaries are wrong. The list of unworthy characters is wrong, and You are wrong." If you are going to make such assertions in such strong language, please have the courtesy and respect to point out specifically where you believe they err. Otherwise, you accomplish little but stir up we-vs.-they passions as if dsg were a football game. > Tep: A paragraph of an email on the computer screen also is being > refreshed rapidly; and because of continuity we still see the "same" > paragraph right there, although every 0-1 code arises and passes > away all the time. But it is not relevant; what is relevant in this case is > the email message that you have written. Similarly, it is > theoretically "not helpful" to discuss the arising and passing-away > nature of the knowledge of the Noble Truths. The relevancy is in the > developing of samma-ditthi -- that through dhammanupassana of the > Noble Truths, it eradicates the first three fetters (MN 2). This process > surely takes a long practice with training(sikkha). Tep, the arising and passing away of sammaditthi is its anicca, and that understanding is central to the development of sammaditthi. All roads to understanding pass through anicca, anatta, and dukkha. Without the anicca, sammaditthi becomes simply ditthi (opinions), no matter how 'right' the words or concepts seem to be. > Tep: Asking "penetrating questions about what is actually discussed in > the suttas" is not the same as the dhammanupassana (DN 22), or > yonoso-manasikara(MN2), of the Four Noble Truths. You are certainly right about that! Supramundane sammaditthi is far, far removed from discussion, reading, asking questions. Mundane sammaditthi is far removed as well. So, two questions: 1. Do you see any distinction between supramundane and mundane right view? If so, what is the difference? 2. If there is a sharp distinction between supramundane sammaditthi and discussion, what do you see as the purpose of participating on a discussion list like dsg? > You don't need to depend on commentaries all the time (remember: be selective); DN 22 > and MN 2 are super clear. No imagined "web". If it is true that there is no web for you (DN 1) and you are indeed an arahant, then certainly there is no need for you to read the commentaries. The purpose of the commentaries is to provide guidance to those of us who are not beyond training as we struggle to understand the primary texts. For this, they are enormously beneficial. They have such a fine and all-encompassing aroma of anicca, anatta, dukkha in their interpretation -- an aroma that, I believe, the Buddha intended and that is very helpful for me. Metta, Dan 50804 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: Satori? buddhistmedi... Hi, James - > > James: I ask this question because I have had satori experiences, in > exact nature to the one described above, twice in my life. Once it > lasted for several hours during a time when I had been doing intense > meditation and once for only a few minutes at the end of a 10-day > meditation retreat. The experience was like looking at everything > and knowing that I was looking at myself (it also involved the other > senses). That everything around me was in face "me". These satori > experiences were also accompanied by a feeling of relief and a lack > of fear (I didn't even know how much fear I had buried down inside > me!! until I had these experiences during which the fear went away). > Tep: Very interesting ! I have not had any meditation experience that is even close to that. Regards, Tep ========= 50805 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:15am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan - It is unfortunate that our discussion has not made each of us wiser. Thank you any way. Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Tep, > I'm going to skip over your ad hominem attacks which really have no > place on dsg and skip over empty comments of the variety "Sutta X > says, 'blah blah blah.' I wholeheartedly agree. Therefore, the > commentaries are wrong. The list of unworthy characters is wrong, and You are wrong." If you are going to make such assertions in such > strong language, please have the courtesy and respect to point out > specifically where you believe they err. Otherwise, you accomplish > little but stir up we-vs.-they passions as if dsg were a football > game. > 50806 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:50am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, One should study for the > right purpose, one should not study without knowing why one studies. Some > people say that they study in order to realize nibbåna. Others say that they > study in order to realize the four noble Truths and to become an ariyan, an > enlightened person. However, if one does not know the characteristic of the > reality that is appearing at this moment, one cannot become enlightened. > Therefore, the goal of the study is right understanding of the true nature > of realities in daily life. They are not ³I², not self, not a person; they > are only dhammas or elements (dhåtus) that appear one at a time. One should > study in order to realize the truth of the dhammas that appear. > ======================== "Should"! One *should* study for the right purpose, and one should *not* study without knowing why. This indicates decision; it indicates choice. Khun sujin says "... the *goal* [emphasis mine] of the study is right understanding of the true nature of realities in daily life." So, there is a *goal*, and action *should* be directed towards that goal. Also, she says "One *should* [emphasis mine] study in order to realize the truth of the dhammas that appear." Without decision, without choice, there is no "should", there is no directed study, there is no right effort, there is no practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50808 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? dacostacharles Hi Tep, And thanks for remembering the disagreements. This proves that the Dharma is, or has become, so vast that everyone can find a way to validate his or her differing options. The blessing/curse associated with the "Buddha's" many teachings. AND to answer your question: "Have you found my sutta understanding wrong ...?" I have to ask, "How is it working for YOU?" The blessing associated with the "Buddha's" many teachings is that you can apply a "word", "phrase", "teaching (e.g., suttra)", "practice", or "doctrine" that works for you (even if it works for nobody else) and gain what the Tibetans call Realization. This leads to full Enlightenment if one stays the course. Here, this diversity can lead many different people to enlightenment. The curse associated with the "Buddha's" many teachings is that you can find a ... [the same list] that can bring about Realization, BUT there will always be another ... [the same list] that effects (e.g., contradicts) what you have found, and thereby block one's possible Realization. Here, this diversity leads to confusion and more ignorance, and it keeps many different people trapped in samsara. So I must ask again, "How is it working for YOU?" Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? [Charles DaCosta] You asked an interesting question! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: ========================== [Charles DaCosta] > Hi Teb, > > You stated: > "... you may be surprised to know that whenever I quoted MN 117 in the past (similar to the above -- to support my belief that clear understanding, right understanding, or direct understanding only come after right concentration), the same few members always jumped out and told me they disagreed." > > So how did they prove you had the wrong understanding of the suttra, or that the suttra is wrong? > ============================= Tep: Nobody has been bold enough to reject a sutta I have quoted by saying that "it is wrong", Charles. They either say one of the followings: A. The sutta that I have quoted is insufficient. Or, they say, I should review more suttas. B. The sutta is difficult to understand and they choose to believe some commentaries. C. There is another translation of it that seems to contradict the one I have quoted. D. Using only the suttas is insufficient; I should include all commentaries of the ancients too. <....> 50809 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satori? lbidd2 Hi James, I have had similar experiences and I think Howard has also. Philosophically, this kind of experience would fall under the Cittamatra (Consciousness Only) school of Mahayana Buddhism. It is characterized as a breakdown of the subject-object opposition. As such it can range from a shallow peek without much consequence to a profound reorientation of view. It is a way of experiencing anatta, but different and somewhat antithetical to the Madhyamika (Middle Way) way of experiencing anatta. I don't know of any direct reference to this experience in Theravada but I once attempted (without much success) to argue that it could be interpreted abhidhammically if "object of consciousness" is understood as "consciousness". In other words, there are no objects of consciousness in experience; all there is is consciousness. You can also find this view in western philosophy beginning with Berkeley. Larry 50810 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles D. - Thank you for being a dhamma friend. > Charles: > AND to answer your question: "Have you found my sutta understanding wrong ...?" > > I have to ask, "How is it working for YOU?" Tep: You are right: the best way to evaluate the Dhamma in one's heart is to ask, " how is it working for me now?" > Charles: > The curse associated with the "Buddha's" many teachings is that you can find a ... [the same list] that can bring about Realization, BUT there will > always be another ... [the same list] that effects (e.g., contradicts) what > you have found, and thereby block one's possible Realization. Here, this > diversity leads to confusion and more ignorance, and it keeps many different people trapped in samsara. > > So I must ask again, "How is it working for YOU?" > Tep: My answer to your question is "it is working better now than ever before". Sincerely, Tep ====== 50811 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - para 267 - 289 , end of the 1st Tetrad buddhistmedi... Hi, all - For this presentation we review para 267 - 289 with the conclusion of the first tetrad. [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 267. In-breaths and out-breaths tranquillizing(passaddhi) the body formation(kaaya sankhaara) are a body(kaaya). The establishment (upatthaana, foundation) is mindfulness(sati). The contemplation (anupassanaa) is knowledge(~naana). The body is establishment, but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body' is said. 268. He contemplates: ... [repeat para 197]. 269. Development: ... [repeat para 198]. [Training] 270 - 1. In-breaths and out-breaths while tranquillizing the body formation are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; ... [repeat the rest of para 246 - 7 to end]. [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 272 - 5. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths tranquillizing the body formation, his feelings(vedana) are recognized(vidita) as they arise (uppaada) ... [and so on as in apra199 - 202 up to the end]. [Combining the faculties, Etc.] 276 - 88. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths tranquillizing the body formation, he combines the faculties(indriyaani samodaaneti), understand their domain(gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness(samatthanca pativijjhati); he combines the powers(balaani samodaaneti), ... [and so on as in para 203 - 6 up to the end]. [Conclusion of the First Tetrad] 289. Eight kinds of knowledge of contemplation, and eight kinds of establishment(foundation) of mindfulness. Four grounds(vatthu) from the Sutta dealing with contemplation of the body as a body. End of Recitation Section. ---------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > > The title of the previous post should be interchanged with this post ! > > The content of the earlier post is correct, but its title was wrong. Please > change it to be as shown above. Thanks. > > > Tep > > ======= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, all DSG Friends - > > > > Last week the presentation of vatthu #3 was completed. For this post > > we start vatthu #4 (i.e. the meditator trains in tranquillizing > > the body formation(kayasankhaara) while breathing in and breathing > > out). Again, the pattern of presentation is the same for every > > vatthu (1 to 16), i.e. analysis of the object of contemplation; the > > foundation of mindfulness; training; exercise of mindfulness and > > full-awareness; combining the faculties, etc. > > > > 265. How is it that he trains thus (7) 'I shall breathe in tranquillizing the > > body formation'; (8) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out tranquillizing the > > body formation'? > > 50812 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:02pm Subject: Re: Satori? buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: Very interesting ! I have not had any meditation experience that is even close to that. James: Well, I wouldn't really classify it as a 'meditation experience' because it happened after meditation, during everyday life. It seemed to happen after I did a lot of one-pointed meditation (jhana) on the breath rather than awareness of arising and falling dhammas (vipassana). If you mainly do vipassana meditation it may not happen to you, or it may not happen at all- I don't really know. Zen makes a big deal out of it but I am trying to determine if it really is a big deal or not (just for curiosity). I hold the Buddha as the highest authority on such matters. Metta, James 50813 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: Satori? buddhatrue Hi Larry, Thanks for the wealth of information!! You have given me a lot to think about! I would like to ask you to further explain one comment you make, if you don't mind. You write: Larry: It is a way of experiencing anatta, but different and somewhat antithetical to the Madhyamika (Middle Way) way of experiencing anatta. James: I remember when I was corresponding with the Starkids about anatta and one of the students, Philip I think, wanted an explanation for anatta which he could understand. I tried to make it simple and described how someone could really concentrate on something, like an insect for example, and 'lose' oneself in the experience to where there is no difference between one's self and the insect- that that experience was similiar to experiencing anatta. I described it this way because I remembered back to my satori experience and thought my past experience might be something like experiencing anatta. Well, a couple of people in this group posted to me that anatta was nothing like what I described and that I had given false information. That really stung and I backed down (unlike usual) because I wasn't sure if I was right or wrong about the matter. Now you state that what I experienced is a way of experiencing anatta but the opposite of the Middle Way. Could you elaborate further because I don't quite understand? Metta, James 50814 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:42pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions kenhowardau Hi Tep, ------------------- <. . .> T: > He who talks more, errs more ! -------------------- That is true, but he also succeeds more. As the Abhidhammikas would say, "Different moments." :-) --------------------------------------------- T: > Now that I have learned the lesson, I will write less and less. :-) -------------------------------------------- I am sure none of us wants that. I would like to see you, and others, to write more and more. I often regret not expressing appreciation for posts that I find inspiring; it seems so ungrateful. But on the internet it is understandable. We are not in a meeting hall where we can nod or applaud, and it is probably best not to clog the list with messages that just say, "Well said!" or "I agree!" However, if we disagree with something, and if we actually say we disagree, it is better to give reasons, don't you think? As you know, Swee Boon has answered one of my posts with "Whatever," which I found unsatisfactory. You expressed your approval, and I see you have adopted a similar policy with Dan. But, in my opinion, it would be better if you thrashed it out, sentence by sentence. :-) That would certainly suit those of us who are following your discussion. We are not interested in a head count of how many agree and how many disagree: we want to know your reasoning. Of course, it is not up to me, and we are all free to communicate in whatever style we like: I am just expressing an opinion. :-) Ken H 50815 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satori? mr39515 Dear James... Hi there... just for my curosity, what is the object of your meditation ?? Metta mr39515 --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi James, > > I have had similar experiences and I think Howard > has also. > Philosophically, this kind of experience would fall > under the Cittamatra > (Consciousness Only) school of Mahayana Buddhism. <...> 50816 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:10pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 286 Conceit -maana (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] There are many moments of forgetfulness and then we do not notice when there is conceit. A moment of conceit, of upholding ourselves, can arise so easily. For example, when we hear about the salary someone else is earning, there may be a moment of comparing, of upholding ourselves. Or, when one is driving the car and sees others waiting for the bus, there may be a notion of “I have a car, I am lucky”, a short moment of comparing, instead of cultivating loving kindness and compassion. We find such thoughts ugly and we do not like to admit that we have them, but they arise because there are conditions for their arising; conceit is a conditioned dhamma (saòkhåra dhamma). We should be sincere and investigate the realities which arise, including akusala dhammas. This is the only way to see that they are non-self. Metta, Sarah ====== 50817 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satori? buddhatrue Hi Huat, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: > Dear James... > > Hi there... just for my curosity, what is the object > of your meditation ?? For sitting meditation it is the breath- specifically the sensation of the in and out breath at the nostrils. Sometimes I use a candle flame, but not too often. For walking meditation I focus on the three step movement: lifting- moving-touching; lifting-moving-touching, etc. Then turning-turning- turning-turning. For standing meditation I focus on the sensations at the bottoms of my feet. For lying meditation (which I don't do too often) I focus on the sensations of the back of my body. Hope this helps! Metta, James 50818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin on Choice (Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 5.) nilovg Hi Howard and friends, I appreciate your mentioning the wise Rabbi who said: if not now, when? I am very glad you bring up this point again about decision, you also wrote to Matt about it. Actually, when we understand that energy, volition, decision are just conditioned mental phenomena, cetasikas that are impermanent, non-self, there is no problem here. We understand in theory, but when it comes to the application there is the deep-seated clinging to self that is a real impediment. It is helpful to realize this. People may read or hear the same words with different levels of understanding or with wrong understanding. I wanted to quote from the Perfections (BTW Tom is still editing, and when complete I can frwd it or he can send you MP3 if you mention address). I hesitated to do this, and you will see why. Quote: Do you see it? I am delighted with such exhortations, but at the same time I remember that there isn't a self who can force himself. If kusala arises, there are conditions for its arising at that moment. Someone else's wise words can be a condition. But a cramped state of mind does not help at all. I think this is really dangerous for one's mental health. For me the study of the Abhidhamma is such a help, for instance going over all these sobhana cetasikas in the Visuddhimagga studies. It sinks in, it helps to remember to what extent kusala citta needs the support of numerous sobhana cetasikas. And there are all the other favorable conditions: association with good friends, helpful Dhamma discussions, considering what one hears or reads. A sense of urgency: not to waste one's time. When Matt wrote: no choice, we can also read this with right understanding. He wanted to emphasize that dhammas are elements arising because of their own conditions. No person who can arrange them to be in this or that way. As Andrew reminded us: In AN I, v, 8, the Buddha said "No other thing do I know, O monks, > that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile > for how quickly the mind changes." Whatever occurs does so before we even realize it. At the same time, there is decision, but these are conditioned dhammas. There are the above mentioned favorable conditions, but these do not belong to us. Nina. op 29-09-2005 20:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Quotes: One should study for the >> right purpose, one should not study without knowing why one studies. ... One should >> study in order to realize the truth of the dhammas that appear. >> > ======================== ..... H: Without decision, without choice, there is no "should", there is no > directed study, there is no right effort, there is no practice. 50819 From: "khcheah33" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:42am Subject: Coma - fruit of kamma? khcheah33 Hi Dhamma friends, I was at the KL Gen. Hospital(lunch-break), visiting a colleague who is recovering from head injuries, the result of a freak accident on 28-8-05. It's about 7~8 days now since her coming out from a semi- conscious state. According to her family members, the last 2~3 days, beside complaining of severe headache, she was asking what happened to her, and when told she had an accident - she asked why she was the victim and why she has to suffer all these pains?? How did they reply? Answer given : "It's her fate."(a belief that sthg good-or-bad comes along with birth). The husband added:"Maybe she has to repaid her kamma debt." I only gave a smile,nodding my head. {of course not in total agreement}. -------- But then at the back of my mind, this question** was recalled (heard one devotee asking another): Question: Some people die in coma (unconscious state). Discuss what possible past evil deeds (kamma) have they done in the past, from the Buddhist point of view? {no mention was made of the cause}. It so happened last night, I picked up & read 3 booklets(from my bookshelve at home): "Kamma & Rebirth by Nyanatiloka", "Kamma and Rebirth by Ven Mahinda", "What Kamma is by Sayadaw U Thittila". (see excerpts at bottom). The Buddha says: "According to the seed that's sown, So is the fruit ye reap therefrom, Doer of good, gather good, Doer of evil, evil reaps. Sown is the seed, and thou shalt taste the fruit thereof." === Samyutta Nikaya, Vol. I, Pg 227 === We also studied that: 'Although Buddhism teaches that Kamma is the chief cause of the inequalities in the world, *yet it does not hold the view that everything is due to past actions*. The law of cause and effect (Kamma) is only one of the twenty-four causes described in Buddhist philosophy, (See Compendium of Philosophy, P.191), or one of the five orders (Panca-Niyamas). > << ...not everything is due to past kamma ... this is the intriguing part, to me >> The Visuddhi-Magga(XIX, 14-17) divides Kamma, according to its functions, into four kinds: Generative (janaka-kamma), Supportive (upatthambhaka-kamma), Counteractive (upapilaka-kamma) & Destructive (upaghataka-kamma). =={read also Conditions-Ch11 by Nina}== Now under which category would we say that 'a being ends up in a coma due to injury or disease' will apply here? Can we say that Supportive kamma(supports the bad kamma) arises because conditions is there for the bad kamma to ripen? or Is it that the obstructive/ counteractive kamma acts up, disrupting the flow of the good generative kamma? I'm also following the series of books on "Law of Karma" & "Fruits of Karma" by Luang Poh Jarun Thitadhammo of Wat Ambhavan, Thailand. We learnt that there was an incident when a pole fell & hit & injured LuangPoh on the head. The respected LuangPoh could trace it back to a bad deed where he throw a piece of wood, and it hit the dog on the head causing it to bleed. He also told of a few incidents where kamma ripened because of past evil deeds. If my memory holds, there is no discussion of any kind with regards a human having to suffer "a coma state" being vipaka (resultant) of some past evil deeds. Or is there a Sutta that may shed some light on this? Could any DSG_Brother_&_Sister_in_the_Dhamma help with some comments (w. references, if possible)? Metta & Best Wishes, KH Cheah (3.30pm) P.S. I hope to compile some points and references for my students who are preparing for their next dhamma exam too. Sorry for the long post. -------------------------------------------- Extracts from "What Kamma Is by Sayadaw U Thittila" {http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/whatkammais.htm} In its general sense Kamma means all good and bad actions. It covers all kinds of intentional actions whether mental, verbal or physical thoughts, words and deeds. In its ultimate sense Kamma means all moral and immoral volitions. The Buddha says: "Mental volition, O Bhikkhus, is what I call action (Kamma). Having volition, one acts by body, speech and thought." === Anguttara Nikaya, Vol. III, Pg 415 === Every action produces an effect and it is a cause first and effect afterwards. We therefore speak of Kamma as the law of cause and effect. The law of cause and effect (Kamma) is only one of the twenty-four causes described in Buddhist philosophy, (See Compendium of Philosophy, P.191), or one of the five orders (Niyamas) which are laws in themselves and operate in the universe. They are: 1. Utu Niyama, physical inorganic order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. 2. Bija Niyama, order or germs and seeds (physical organic order) e.g., rice produced from rice seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. 3. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. 4. Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth; Gravitation and other similar laws of nature, etc 5. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, telepathy, etc === Abhidhammavatara, Pg 54 === These five orders embrace everything in the world and every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by them. They being laws in themselves, require no lawgiver and Kamma as such is only one of them. -------------------------------------------- 50820 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:16am Subject: What is Suffering... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the components of the primary problem: Suffering ? At Savatthi. While seated, the Venerable Radha asked the Blessed One: Venerable Sir, one says: Suffering!! What, Venerable Sir, is suffering? Form, Radha, is suffering, feeling is suffering, perception is suffering, mental constructions are suffering, consciousness is suffering... !!! Understanding this, Bhikkhus, a well instructed Noble Disciple experiences disgust towards form, disgust towards feeling, disgust towards perception, disgust towards mental construction, & disgust towards consciousness itself! Experiencing disgust, he becomes disillusioned! Through disillusion his mind is released. When it is released, one instantly knows: This mind is liberated, and one understands: Extinguished is birth, this Noble Life is all completed, done is what should be done, there is no state of being beyond this... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 23:15 III 196 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50821 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:29am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin on Choice (Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 5.) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/30/05 4:43:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and friends, > I appreciate your mentioning the wise Rabbi who said: if not now, when? > > I am very glad you bring up this point again about decision, you also wrote > to Matt about it. > Actually, when we understand that energy, volition, decision are just > conditioned mental phenomena, cetasikas that are impermanent, non-self, > there is no problem here. -------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. Of course, since we are all beset by a sense of self and usually also a subtle belief in self, the phenomena of energy/effort, volition, and decision are often perceived and thought of in a manner polluted by that sense and belief, and it seems that there is a self that makes efforts, that wills, and that decides. Volition and effort are highly prone to such misapprending, and so we need to be very careful - very watchful. I am well aware of that. -------------------------------------- > We understand in theory, but when it comes to the application there is the > deep-seated clinging to self that is a real impediment. It is helpful to > realize this. --------------------------------------- Howard: Without a doubt! -------------------------------------- > People may read or hear the same words with different levels of > understanding or with wrong understanding. > I wanted to quote from the Perfections (BTW Tom is still editing, and when > complete I can frwd it or he can send you MP3 if you mention address). > I hesitated to do this, and you will see why. > Quote: > be able to endure everything with patience in all situations and not > complain about cold, heat or difficult situations. > Lobha should be abandoned whenever it arises, that is the practice of the > Dhamma. If we are too slow in turning away from akusala it will be even more > difficult later on.> > > Do you see it? I am delighted with such exhortations, but at the same time I > remember that there isn't a self who can force himself. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes! Correct on both counts!! ---------------------------------- If kusala arises,> > there are conditions for its arising at that moment. Someone else's wise > words can be a condition. But a cramped state of mind does not help at all. > I think this is really dangerous for one's mental health. > For me the study of the Abhidhamma is such a help, for instance going over > all these sobhana cetasikas in the Visuddhimagga studies. It sinks in, it > helps to remember to what extent kusala citta needs the support of numerous > sobhana cetasikas. > -------------------------------------- Howard: It is far less of a help for me, but even with me the phenomenological and not-self fragrances wafting through the Abhidhamma are helpful to me - especially the emphasis on impersonality. Many of the details are lost on me, and even unacceptable in cases, but the overall flavor suits me very well. ------------------------------------ And there are all the other favorable conditions:> > association with good friends, helpful Dhamma discussions, considering what > one hears or reads. A sense of urgency: not to waste one's time. ----------------------------------- Howard: I find the latter to be very important. ---------------------------------- > When Matt wrote: no choice, we can also read this with right understanding. > He wanted to emphasize that dhammas are elements arising because of their > own conditions. No person who can arrange them to be in this or that way. > As Andrew reminded us: In AN I, v, 8, the Buddha said "No other thing do I > know, O monks, > >that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile > >for how quickly the mind changes." > Whatever occurs does so before we even realize it. At the same time, there > is decision, but these are conditioned dhammas. There are the above > mentioned favorable conditions, but these do not belong to us. ----------------------------------------- Howard: So long as understanding of impersonality and conditionality are apprehended in a manner that does not condition paralysis, it is only the good. As we walk our way along the narrow path, we need to be careful not to stumble and fall off to the ditch on the right or the ditch on the left - a point well made by Ajahn Chah when asked why he seemed to be giving opposing instructions at different times or to different people. ----------------------------------------- > Nina. > op 29-09-2005 20:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Quotes: One should study for the > >>right purpose, one should not study without knowing why one studies. ... > One > should > >>study in order to realize the truth of the dhammas that appear. > >> > >======================== > ..... > H: Without decision, without choice, there is no "should", there is no > >directed study, there is no right effort, there is no practice. > > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50822 From: "Hal" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: Satori? bardosein Hi James, Larry and Tep, The view that Larry is discussing is outlined in the Lankavatara Sutra. I have a very limited understanding of this mind-only doctrine. However, IMHO a satori experience would not provide the liberating insight of anatta if _mushin_ (consciousness empty of both subject and object) does not disclose the radical discontinuity of consciousness itself. That is to say, one could very well realize a profound breakdown in subject-object opposition in which "I becomes That" (or _I am That_to borrow the title from the collected talks of Nisargadatta) without having come to the end of experience itself. Wouldn't such satori experiences be considered, from the Theravadan perspective, to be a vipassana upakkilesa? Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi James, > > I have had similar experiences and I think Howard has also. > Philosophically, this kind of experience would fall under the Cittamatra > (Consciousness Only) school of Mahayana Buddhism. It is characterized as > a breakdown of the subject-object opposition. As such it can range from > a shallow peek without much consequence to a profound reorientation of > view. It is a way of experiencing anatta, but different and somewhat > antithetical to the Madhyamika (Middle Way) way of experiencing anatta. > I don't know of any direct reference to this experience in Theravada but > I once attempted (without much success) to argue that it could be > interpreted abhidhammically if "object of consciousness" is understood > as "consciousness". In other words, there are no objects of > consciousness in experience; all there is is consciousness. You can also > find this view in western philosophy beginning with Berkeley. > > Larry 50823 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 Dear Tep, I found the discussion helpful. You prompted me to look again a several important suttas, their commentaries, and the original Pali -- all of which I found helpful. I just recap what I learned in the exchange. First you inspired me to revisit MN 117, which I find one of the most valuable suttas of all because it describes so neatly the intricacy of the relationship between right view, right effort, and right mindfulness (and right view, right effort, and the other samma's), making a distinction between two kinds of samma's: mundane samma and supramundane samma. We know such distinction must exist because otherwise there would be no eightfold path except for ariyans. I had read BB's quotes from the commentary before (MLDB notes) but hadn't quite realized the strength of the "seeing" words used therein. Regarding mundane right view, Right view (vipassanasammaditthi) examines (pariviima.msati) the formations -- three very strong indications that "Right View" is not to be thought of as simply "Right Opinion", "Right Theory", or "Right Doctrine", but, rather, Right Viewing. The commentary states it so forcefully because the sutta itself uses language that can easily be misread as suggesting that Right View is a matter of knowing the "right" theory or being able to recite the "right" doctrine. If that reading were the correct interpretation of what right view really was, then the path would essentially be simply a philosophical system that could be tread by intellectualizing, constructing theories, forming opinions. In addition, that reading leaves no room for satipatthana or (mundane) vipassana. In satipatthana and vipassana moments Right View clearly arises, but at those moments it is not theoretical, not opinion-based, not a philosophical formulation. Nor is the Right View at those moments supramundane. The only possibilities remaining are that either the right view of satipatthana and vipassana is not Right View at all, or the "conceptual Right View" interpretation of the sutta is wrong. The commentary vividly and unambiguously suggests an alternate reading of Right View as more of a "Right Viewing of realities (sankare)" than a "Right opinions." This reading would not be apparent to a reader in the modern era, but to the bhikkhus of Buddha's age, it would have been natural and obvious. Next, we looked at DN 22 together. This is a long (and important) sutta, and in one section it discusses supramundane sammaditthi as clear vision of the noble truths -- yathabhutam pajanati. I hadn't looked at the Pali in that section before and hadn't thought of sammaditthi and yathabhuta pajanati in the same breath before. A natural pairing to make, and you pointed out to me the passages in DN that make such a pairing obvious. Thank-you! Although the pairing also seems to work well for mundane Right View, the difference being that with mundane Right View, the object is a sankhata dhamma. This raises the question of when does the pairing break down? Or are the terms synonomous? I have the sense that yathabhuta pajanati is the right view that arises only with vipassana, while right view can arise with satipatthana in general. However, this is just an inkling. What is important is that DN 22 reinforces the notion that sammaditthi is the "Right Viewing" of reality and does not refer to right opinions or theories. We also discussed how, in MN 2, supramundane Right View is placed in the section entitled "taints to be abandoned by seeing" -- another indication that "Right View" is to be understood as "viewing reality as it is", and not to be understood as "correct theory." Finally, we discussed the nature of sammaditthi -- whether it was something that arises and passes away, and, if so, whether that was at all relevant. I had not thought about the issue in that way before, and I found the discussion very helpful. When sammaditthi is thought of as a "right theory" rather than a "right viewing", there is no understanding of the path factors as anicca. Without the anicca, the path is always there in theory (concepts do not arise and pass away) but never arises in reality because concepts do not *exist*. I had never explicitly thought about or articulated how critical it is to understand that the tilakkhana apply to the path factors as momentary states. And again, I thank you for the discussion, which I found very helpful. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Dan - > > It is unfortunate that our discussion has not made each of us wiser. > > Thank you any way. > > > Tep 50824 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: Satori? onco111 Excellent, Hal. You nailed it head on! Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi James, Larry and Tep, > > The view that Larry is discussing is outlined in the Lankavatara > Sutra. I have a very limited understanding of this mind-only > doctrine. However, IMHO a satori experience would not provide the > liberating insight of anatta if _mushin_ (consciousness empty of both > subject and object) does not disclose the radical discontinuity of > consciousness itself. That is to say, one could very well realize a > profound breakdown in subject-object opposition in which "I becomes > That" (or _I am That_to borrow the title from the collected talks of > Nisargadatta) without having come to the end of experience itself. > Wouldn't such satori experiences be considered, from the Theravadan > perspective, to be a vipassana upakkilesa? > > Hal > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi James, > > > > I have had similar experiences and I think Howard has also. > > Philosophically, this kind of experience would fall under the > Cittamatra > > (Consciousness Only) school of Mahayana Buddhism. It is > characterized as > > a breakdown of the subject-object opposition. As such it can range > from > > a shallow peek without much consequence to a profound reorientation > of > > view. It is a way of experiencing anatta, but different and somewhat > > antithetical to the Madhyamika (Middle Way) way of experiencing > anatta. > > I don't know of any direct reference to this experience in > Theravada but > > I once attempted (without much success) to argue that it could be > > interpreted abhidhammically if "object of consciousness" is > understood > > as "consciousness". In other words, there are no objects of > > consciousness in experience; all there is is consciousness. You can > also > > find this view in western philosophy beginning with Berkeley. > > > > Larry 50825 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? upasaka_howard Hi, Hal (and Larry & Tep) - In a message dated 9/30/05 9:23:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, halwilson@... writes: > Hi James, Larry and Tep, > > The view that Larry is discussing is outlined in the Lankavatara > Sutra. I have a very limited understanding of this mind-only > doctrine. However, IMHO a satori experience would not provide the > liberating insight of anatta if _mushin_ (consciousness empty of both > subject and object) does not disclose the radical discontinuity of > consciousness itself. That is to say, one could very well realize a > profound breakdown in subject-object opposition in which "I becomes > That" (or _I am That_to borrow the title from the collected talks of > Nisargadatta) without having come to the end of experience itself. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not certain that the non-dual experience I underwent is properly described, as Larry does, as "cittamatra". What predominated in "my" experience was a lack of subjective pole. The orientation, to the extent that there was a polar orientation, was towards the objective pole - it was promarily a "no-self" experience. There was just experiential content, and, in the absence of a subjective pole, there was really no objective pole either - that is, the experiential content did not appear as object of a knower/knowing. I do agree that the experience was incomplete in several respects, and a key one of these was that the conditionality holding among aspects of the experiential flow was not at the forefront. What *led to this experience, however, was intensive meditation in which impermanence and conditionality were very much at the fore. ------------------------------------------ > Wouldn't such satori experiences be considered, from the Theravadan > perspective, to be a vipassana upakkilesa? > > Hal > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin on Choice (Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 5.) nilovg Hi Howard, Yes, I agree, we have to be careful, it is a matter of balance. But here is a difficulty: We (said in general) are still beginners, so there is no real understanding that the dhamma appearing now is non-self. And so it is easy to go off balance. That is why I need constant reminders about my clinging to self. What am I doing now? Self wants to, self desires more awareness. , this is a reminder that can be taken in the right way (less clinging) or the wrong way (passivity, paralysis). The Dhamma is very subtle. Also, whatever we hear or read, we have to place in the right context. This is also true when reading suttas. Then the conditionality you mention: it helps to know which types of conditions are operating, even in theory. Eyesense conditions seeing by being its base; visible object conditions seeing by being its object. Seeing is result, vipaakacitta, produced by kamma, we cannot make it arise. This helps already to have some understanding of seeing as non-self. The same for thinking, for lobha, dosa. It is important to remember the latent tendencies. It helps to see akusala as being conditioned. Before we know it arises. There can be more understanding of it as a conditioned dhamma. But I very well understand that all the Abhidhamma details are not helpful for everybody, it is very personal. Nina. op 30-09-2005 14:29 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > So long as understanding of impersonality and conditionality are > apprehended in a manner that does not condition paralysis, it is only the > good. As > we walk our way along the narrow path, we need to be careful not to stumble > and fall off to the ditch on the right or the ditch on the left... 50827 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Doing dana with wisdom? nilovg Hi Kh Cheah, Thank you for your daily life examples. You shared your kusala with us, and that is patti daana. Giving others the opportunity to also have kusala cittas about your kusala. You rejoiced in Mr Suresh's kusala, you had anumodana daana, saying sadhu. These are spiritual ways of giving and sharing. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast and therefore it is hard to tell what types of cittas others have, and also as to ourselves it is hard to tell. You gave an example with wrong view in between, but also conceit is bound to arise:when we think, I did this very well. Your colleagues may have bought the coupons with kusala citta, wanting to help, inspite of regret afterwards. We cannot know their different cittas. Daana with wisdom, this is very hard to tell. When someone has studied the Dhamma he may have understanding of kusala as kusala, and realize that kusala is cause that can bring result. The Bodhisatta developed the perfection of giving with right understanding. His kusala was very pure: he did not want any gain for himself and he performed it in order to have less defilements. When kusala is accompanied by understanding, we give with the intention to have less selfishness, we only think of the benefit of someone else. There are different degrees of understanding. When it is of the level of satipatthana we realize that kusala is a conditioned dhamma, not self. This can be gradually learnt by being aware of nama and rupa. Nina. op 29-09-2005 10:11 schreef khcheah33 op khcheah33@...: > The next instant saw me putting my palms in an //anjali// gesture > and saying "Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu Mr Suresh. May I rejoice in your > good merits too." 50828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Coma - fruit of kamma? nilovg Hi Kh Cheah, Coma state is a medical term, and his has to do with conventional realities. Kamma and vipaaka concerns cause and effect in the ultimate sense, this is a field, different from medical science. I do not know what happens during a coma. I only know that when there are no cittas that experience objects through the senses or the mind-door there are bhavangacittas. These arise in between processes and also in deep sleep when we are not dreaming. These cittas are vipaakacittas, results of kamma, they are of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness and experience the same object as the rebirth-consciousness. Thus, when born as a human, bhavangacittas are the results of kusala kamma. This is all that can be known for sure. We have to be careful when concluding that coma state must be bhavanga-cittas. How can we be sure that that person is not in a state of dreaming? Medical science does not know about cittas. It cannot explain about ultimate relaities. As to kamma not being the cause of everything in life, there is the Siivakasutta SN XXXVI.21. <"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true..> There are other factors that make it favorable for akusala kamma or kusala kamma to produce result at a certain moment. We cannot find out whether it is supportive kamma or counteractive kamma operating at a certain time, this is beyond us. Nina. op 30-09-2005 10:42 schreef khcheah33 op khcheah33@...: > If my memory holds, there is no discussion of any kind with > regards a human having to suffer "a coma state" being vipaka > (resultant) of some past evil deeds. 50829 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H - I like you message # 50814 a lot -- it is cool and soothing. >T: Now that I have learned the lesson, I will write less and less. :-) Ken H : 1) I am sure none of us wants that. I would like to see you, and others, to write more and more. 2) I often regret not expressing appreciation for posts that I find inspiring; it seems so ungrateful. But on the internet it is understandable. 3) However, if we disagree with something, and if we actually say we disagree, it is better to give reasons, don't you think? As you know, Swee Boon has answered one of my posts with "Whatever," which I found unsatisfactory. You expressed your approval, and I see you have adopted a similar policy with Dan. But, in my opinion, it would be better if you thrashed it out, sentence by sentence. :-) Tep: 1) You are kind to say that. 2) I agree. 3) I think so too, in general. But it depends on how effective the communication has been up to that point. Saying "whatever!" or "Oh, Brother!", or something similar to that, indicates frustration because the communication has failed to produce a positive result. I just wish that our accumulated patience always stays strong, not melting away easily. Of course, we all should try again -- for the better. Ken H. : We are not interested in a head count of how many agree and how many disagree: we want to know your reasoning. Of course, it is not up to me, and we are all free to communicate in whatever style we like: I am just expressing an opinion. :-) Tep: Thank you for your words of wisdom. You know, I want to know your reasoning (also, Dan's) too. In the past if only I knew that you also really wanted to know my reasoning, then we wouldn't have any difficulty getting our points across. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > ------------------- > <. . .> > T: > He who talks more, errs more ! > -------------------- > > That is true, but he also succeeds more. As the Abhidhammikas would > say, "Different moments." :-) > 50830 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: Satori? onco111 Hi Hal (Howard, Larry, Tep, James), I don't know the Zen vocabulary well enough to speak cogently about it, but I believe the kinds of experiences I've heard mentioned in this thread are not at all uncommon among "Theravada" meditators. In fact, I'd even say they are common -- not in the sense that they occur all the time, but in the sense that most semi-serious meditators (i.e., having gone on a few extended intensive retreats) have had them on some occasions (or even frequently). However, without the shattering of the illusion of continuity and the perception of the breakup of the stream of experience, can it be with anything beyond a soft, conceptual understanding of anatta? The perception of the tilakkhana as characteristics (rather than as concepts) is sharp, perhaps even jolting, rather than cool, soft, fragile, yet seemingly lasting (whether for hours, minutes, seconds -- anything beyond a moment or a succession of moments). Hal's point is (correct me if I'm wrong) that, in Theravada, the insighting value of these experiences is considered limited and should not be overestimated, otherwise what would be a helpful conceptual realization is nothing more than vipassanupakkilesa, an obstacle to overcome. But even if there is clear perception of the breakup, it still may be vipassanupakkilesa, which is why Buddhagosa discusses other tests of whether a meditation experience is vipassanupakkilesa. First: "The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to condition owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions" (Vism XX, 104). Howard identified the "incompleteness" of a perception that did not realize the conditionality, and such incompleteness would class the perception with vipassanupakkilesa according to Buddhagosa. He'd take it a step further and add that if, after or during the event, there is a tendency toward thinking, "Cool!", then the experience is no more than vipassanupakkilesa (i.e., for sammaditthi of the (mundane) path, the "states have no curiosity"). Next: He expands on this notion later (Vism XX, 125). "When he takes it thus, 'How agreeable this illumination that has arisen is', his way of taking is due to pride (conceit)", and the experience is classed as vipassanupakkilesa. Hal and Howard, please correct me if I misrepresented you! Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Hal (and Larry & Tep) - > > In a message dated 9/30/05 9:23:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > halwilson@g... writes: > > > Hi James, Larry and Tep, > > > > The view that Larry is discussing is outlined in the Lankavatara > > Sutra. I have a very limited understanding of this mind-only > > doctrine. However, IMHO a satori experience would not provide the > > liberating insight of anatta if _mushin_ (consciousness empty of both > > subject and object) does not disclose the radical discontinuity of > > consciousness itself. That is to say, one could very well realize a > > profound breakdown in subject-object opposition in which "I becomes > > That" (or _I am That_to borrow the title from the collected talks of > > Nisargadatta) without having come to the end of experience itself. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I'm not certain that the non-dual experience I underwent is properly > described, as Larry does, as "cittamatra". What predominated in "my" experience > was a lack of subjective pole. The orientation, to the extent that there was > a polar orientation, was towards the objective pole - it was promarily a > "no-self" experience. There was just experiential content, and, in the absence of a > subjective pole, there was really no objective pole either - that is, the > experiential content did not appear as object of a knower/knowing. > I do agree that the experience was incomplete in several respects, and > a key one of these was that the conditionality holding among aspects of the > experiential flow was not at the forefront. What *led to this experience, > however, was intensive meditation in which impermanence and conditionality were > very much at the fore. > ------------------------------------------ > > > Wouldn't such satori experiences be considered, from the Theravadan > > perspective, to be a vipassana upakkilesa? > > > > Hal > > > ========================= > With metta, > Howard > 50831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? nilovg Hi Dan and Tep, I find this a very good summary of important points, Dan. I was not able to follow all discussions on the list. In the Transcendental Dependent Arising, Upanisa sutta, Transl by B.B.,(Wheel277/278) it is stated that concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are. The term yathaabhuuta-ñaa.nadassana is the development of insight, as explained by B.B. Nina. op 30-09-2005 16:01 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > First you inspired me to revisit MN 117, which I find one of the most > valuable suttas of all because it describes so neatly the intricacy > of the relationship between right view, right effort, and right > mindfulness (and right view, right effort, and the other samma's), 50832 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/30/05 12:53:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Hal (Howard, Larry, Tep, James), > I don't know the Zen vocabulary well enough to speak cogently about > it, but I believe the kinds of experiences I've heard mentioned in > this thread are not at all uncommon among "Theravada" meditators. In > fact, I'd even say they are common -- not in the sense that they > occur all the time, but in the sense that most semi-serious > meditators (i.e., having gone on a few extended intensive retreats) > have had them on some occasions (or even frequently). However, > without the shattering of the illusion of continuity and the > perception of the breakup of the stream of experience, can it be with > anything beyond a soft, conceptual understanding of anatta? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I speak only for my own experience. I agree in one respect and disagree in another. The disagreement first: All sense of personal self/identity was entirely gone - hence it was not just a "conceptual" experience, and since that time I have had an experience-based incontrovertible disbelief in a personal self, and hence also in any things known by a self. Now the agreement: The apparent continuity of experience was not shattered in that experience, which means that paticcasamupada wasn't directly grasped, and thus the experience was very far from full. Had there not been an enormous fear accompanying the experience of the loss of any anchor or anything to hold onto, the experience may well have continued and extended to a fuller one. But the loss of sense of personal self alone was a shattering experience that seems to have had a lasting effect. --------------------------------------------------- The > > perception of the tilakkhana as characteristics (rather than as > concepts) is sharp, perhaps even jolting, rather than cool, soft, > fragile, yet seemingly lasting (whether for hours, minutes, seconds -- > anything beyond a moment or a succession of moments). Hal's point is > (correct me if I'm wrong) that, in Theravada, the insighting value of > these experiences is considered limited and should not be > overestimated, otherwise what would be a helpful conceptual > realization is nothing more than vipassanupakkilesa, an obstacle to > overcome. ----------------------------------------- Howard: As I recall reading, the insight value is also considered limited in Ch'an/Zen, where ongoing cultivation is given greater importance. ----------------------------------------- But even if there is clear perception of the breakup, it > > still may be vipassanupakkilesa, which is why Buddhagosa discusses > other tests of whether a meditation experience is vipassanupakkilesa. > > First: "The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through > seeing rise according to condition owing to his discovery that states > have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions" > (Vism XX, 104). Howard identified the "incompleteness" of a > perception that did not realize the conditionality, and such > incompleteness would class the perception with vipassanupakkilesa > according to Buddhagosa. He'd take it a step further and add that if, > after or during the event, there is a tendency toward > thinking, "Cool!", then the experience is no more than > vipassanupakkilesa (i.e., for sammaditthi of the (mundane) path, > the "states have no curiosity"). ----------------------------------------- Howard: My experience was more terrifying than "cool"! ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > Next: He expands on this notion later (Vism XX, 125). "When he takes > it thus, 'How agreeable this illumination that has arisen is', his > way of taking is due to pride (conceit)", and the experience is > classed as vipassanupakkilesa. > > Hal and Howard, please correct me if I misrepresented you! > > Metta, > > Dan > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50833 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:56am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, -------- footnotes: 5. This commentary has been translated by Ven. Soma in ³The Way of Mindfulness² B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. The six factors leading to the abandoning of sense-desire are: taking up the sensuously inauspicious subject of meditation; application for the development of the jhåna on this meditation subject; the guarded state of the controlling faculties of sense; moderation in food; the sympathy and support of good men in the endeavour; stimulating talk that helps the accomplishment of the object in view. 6. When, in the development of samatha, concentration has become more developed, one acquires a mental image, nimitta, of the meditation subject. ***** Nina. 50834 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Htoo (and kenH) - > > KenH asked you several questions that he doesn't have clear ideas > about. So I had asked him to give out his answers first. > > >Htoo: > > It is good to ask the answers first. > > Tep: > > He has not yet responded to my request; moreover, he is now back at > you again ! So, what is your defense? > > > With sympathy, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Ken H, and all, I was travelling. I just lost the communication. But I will be responding. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50835 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are htootintnaing Dear Ken H, Very good questions. I maight not be able to answer to your satisfaction but I would try to my best. They (the facts/questions in your reply) are harder than the points I discussed with Sukinderpal. I left a message to respond to Sukin but I could not find it. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: HI Htoo (Swee Boon and Tep), > Htoo wrote: ---------- > > Thanks for your questions on 'right concentration'. > If it is NEP's right concentration it is perfected right > concentration with right view without any ignorance to > anything. > > That is it has to be free from ignorance to suffering, the cause > of suffering, cessation of suffering and the path leading to > cessation of suffering. > > It is just fleeting. > --------------------- Ken H: Thank you for answering some of my questions. In case the reason for asking them was not clear, I will explain. Swee Boon made some remarks extolling the virtues of right concentration. Without doubting those virtues, I assumed his remarks were directed at those of us who place "too much emphasis" on right understanding. Perhaps I am overly sensitive. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You may be right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Anyway, you congratulated Swee Boon by saying; "Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without right concentration things will never be seen very clearly." (End of message) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: I can only assume you were agreeing with Swee Boon. In other words, you think there should be a separate practice for concentration because the concentration conditioned to arise with right view *as forerunner* is insufficient. You think people who emphasise right view cannot be lovers of right concentration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think we have different views from the start. We hear means 'I' and 'DSGs' including you (Ken H). But your last sentence is not exactly right. Because of definition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: If I asked you straight out, you would agree with both sides of the story. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I agree both sides this means that I agree from different angle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Therefore, I asked a series of questions. (BTW, sorry for the typo - "wrong" instead of "wrong view".) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Did you make typo? Actually my brain read it as 'wrong view' , I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: My questions were intended to show how the kind of concentration you and Swee Boon were extolling could not possibly be right concentration. Before you begin your formal concentration practice, do you make sure there will be no ignorance and wrong view? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I see. I see. I see. But when jhaana is being develop there was no priortization that wrong view or ignorance will not be there (I may not be clear here). But no jhaana can develop with moha, I am dead sure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: How could you be sure? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not need to be sure (moha not to arise )if I have to develop jhaana because moha never never never develop with jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: How could you be sure you won't be developing wrong view, wrong > concentration and the wrong path? If your practice doesn't contain > that certainty, can it be the practice taught by the Buddha? Did he > teach a practice of "hit and miss?" > > I won't go through all the questions. They raise the same points that > have been raised a thousand times on DSG. I just like to phrase them > differently, even if it's only for my benefit. > :-) > > Ken H 50836 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:55pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- Dan's Right view Is Right. buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. (and all) - Your post (#50823) was a pleasant surprise. I very much appreciate your patience in trying again to share your thoughts/understanding of "right view" with me, and thank you for suggesting how suttas reading should be complemented by sutta commentaries. I hope that other members may benefit from our discussion. Any feedback/correction is more than welcome. Your remarks are numbered and put in quotations. By the way, please don't be annoyed by my blunt answers that might sound as if I were an expert who knew everything : an arahant? :-)). 1) "I found the discussion helpful. You prompted me to look again at several important suttas, their commentaries, and the original Pali -- all of which I found helpful." Tep: You may not believe me that I do (carefully) read sutta commentaries in addition to the suttas themselves. Sometimes, I find some sutta translations very confusing. Sometimes, I find some sutta commentaries very confusing. Luckily, most of the time I have found the Pali text quite clear. 2) "MN 117 ("one of the most valuable suttas of all") ... describes so neatly the intricacy of the relationship between right view, right effort, and right mindfulness (and right view, right effort, and the other samma's), making a distinction between two kinds of samma's: mundane samma and supramundane samma. We know such distinction must exist because otherwise there would be no eightfold path except for ariyans." Tep: Right. 3) "Right View" is not to be thought of as simply "Right Opinion", "Right Theory", or "Right Doctrine", but, rather, Right Viewing. The commentary states it so forcefully because the sutta itself uses language that can easily be misread as suggesting that Right View is a matter of knowing the "right" theory or being able to recite the "right" doctrine." Tep: Right. 4) "In satipatthana and vipassana moments Right View clearly arises, but at those moments it is not theoretical, not opinion-based, not a philosophical formulation." Tep: Sounds good to me! This is my understanding : Anupassana (contemplation) of the 4 Noble Truths develops right view, which is the knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble Truths. More development through anupassana of the Noble Truths leads to the supramundane right view that is the true seeing & knowing (penetration) of dukkha, dukkha samudaya, dukkha nirodha, and the atthangika-magga. 5) "The commentary vividly and unambiguously suggests an alternate reading of Right View as more of a "Right Viewing of realities (sankare)" than a "Right opinions." This reading would not be apparent to a reader in the modern era, but to the bhikkhus of Buddha's age, it would have been natural and obvious." Tep: I am not a bhikkhu of the Buddha's age, but I have no trouble understanding right view as the knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble Truths simply by careful readings (several times) of MN 117, MN 2, and DN 9. Saying so does not mean that I think of myself highly; I only want to say that suttas are not that difficult to understand, when you have chanda and viriya to study them with unbroken attention and discernment. 6) "I hadn't looked at the Pali in that section (in DN 22) before and hadn't thought of sammaditthi and yathabhuta pajanati in the same breath before. A natural pairing to make, and you pointed out to me the passages in DN that make such a pairing obvious. ... Although the pairing also seems to work well for mundane Right View, the difference being that with mundane Right View, the object is a sankhata dhamma. ... DN 22 reinforces the notion that sammaditthi is the "Right Viewing" of reality and does not refer to right opinions or theories." Tep: That is a pretty good overview, Dan. Have you ever wondered why DN 22 does not state the case of supramundane right view (whose object, I presume, is Nibbana)? 7) "I have the sense that yathabhuta pajanati is the right view that arises only with vipassana, while right view can arise with satipatthana in general. However, this is just an inkling." Tep: That is close to what I think. My understanding tells me that right view is the knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble Truths, it is not yet 'yathabhuta pajanati'. My reply in 8) below explains that anupassana of the 4 Noble Truths leads to yathabhutam pajanati of these truths. 8) "We also discussed how, in MN 2, supramundane Right View is placed in the section entitled "taints to be abandoned by seeing" -- another indication that "Right View" is to be understood as "viewing reality as it is", and not to be understood as "correct theory." Tep: There is something of importance in MN 2, Dan. Yoniso- manasikara or wise attention of the 4 Noble Truths can result in abandonment of the three fetters. Here yoniso-manasikara of a dhamma is equivalent to "discernment" (anupassana) of that dhamma. Therefore, the dhammanupassana of the 4 Noble Truths in DN 22 is the same as yoniso-manasikara of the ariya-sacca as given in MN 2. [MN 2]: He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. [DN 22]: Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.' Tep: As you have pointed out earlier, 'yathabhutam pajanati' is truly seeing and knowing (the way things - ruupa & naama - really are : anicca, dhukka, anatta). The translation of 'yathabhatam pajanati' in the above passage is "(he) discerns, as it is actually present". 9)"When sammaditthi is thought of as a "right theory" rather than a "right viewing", there is no understanding of the path factors as anicca. Without the anicca, the path is always there in theory (concepts do not arise and pass away) but never arises in reality because concepts do not *exist*." Tep: This observation you have made is pretty good. Theoretical considerations, definitions, or concepts of the 4 Noble Truths (including the 8 path factors) are not helpful for penetration (pativedha) -- only anupassana of the 4 Noble Truths is truly helpful for developing insight knowledge and penetration that leads to the Stream-entry [according to MN 2]. Warm and kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Tep, > I found the discussion helpful. You prompted me to look again a > several important suttas, their commentaries, and the original Pali -- > all of which I found helpful. I just recap what I learned in the > exchange. > 50837 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for your wise attention to the ongoing discussion (and debate?) between Dan and Tep. > Hi Dan and Tep, > I find this a very good summary of important points, Dan. I was not able to follow all discussions on the list. > In the Transcendental Dependent Arising, Upanisa sutta, Transl by > B.B.,(Wheel277/278) it is stated that concentration is the supporting > condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are. The > term yathaabhuuta-ñaa.nadassana is the development of insight, as explained by B.B. > Nina. If your time permits, please give me your opinion about the reply to Dan (please see the next message that was posted a moment ago). Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ===== 50838 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are / MN 117 buddhistmedi... Hi, KenH and all - Htoo's answers to your questions seem to open up more questions. If he took my advice and asked you to give your answers first, it would have been more convenient. Ken H: > (1) Before you begin your formal concentration practice, do you make sure there will be no ignorance and wrong view? (2) How could you be sure? (3) How could you be sure you won't be developing wrong view, wrong concentration and the wrong path? (4) If your practice doesn't contain that certainty, can it be the practice taught by the Buddha? (5) Did he teach a practice of "hit and miss?" > Tep: I think MN 117 gives appropriate answers to the questions (1) - (5). Regards, Tep ======== 50839 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? dacostacharles Teb, Then your sutta understanding is improving! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Friday, 30 September, 2005 01:07 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? Hi, Charles D. - Thank you for being a dhamma friend. <...> Tep: My answer to your question is "it is working better now than ever before". <...> 50840 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A buddhistmedi... Dear Charles D. - Now it is your turn to answer a question. > >Tep: My answer to your question is "it is working better now > > than ever before". > > Charles D. : > Then your sutta understanding is improving! > Tep: I guess so! Do you have a much better way to suggest? Regards, Tep ======== 50841 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? lbidd2 Hi James, I think there are probably more than two ways of experiencing anatta but Consciousness Only and Middle Way are predominate in Mahayana. The Middle Way view concerns the emptiness of a compound. If you look for a lamp in the parts of a lamp you won't find it, and you won't find anything you could call the wholeness of the parts. So the lamp is there but not there. Similarly with the 5 khandhas or the constituents of your mind and body. There is a compound of phenomena but nothing we could call a self. It is empty, ungraspable, and therefore there is nothing to cling to. That's one doorway to anatta. My experience of Consciousness Only is identical to yours. It arose after meditative concentration on rupa. The sense of being apart from external phenomena dissolved and with it the fundamental dualism of self and other. This school is also called Yogacara because meditation (yoga) is a major factor. In the Middle Way analysis is the major factor. Another way to experience "nothing to cling to" is simply by means of impermanence. Larry 50842 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? lbidd2 Hi Hal, Regarding defilements of insight here is a snip from the Buddhist Dictionary: "During such insight practice, however, may arise the 10 imperfections (or defilements) of insight (vipassanúpakkilesa): effulgence of light (obhása), knowledge (ñána), rapture (píti), tranquillity (passaddhi), happiness (sukha), determination (adhimokkha), energy (paggaha), awareness (upatthána), delight (nikanti). - See Vis.M. XX, 105f. (App.). "Excepting the last one, 'delight', they are not imperfections or defilements in themselves, but may become a basis for them through the arising of pride or delight or by a wrong conclusion that one of the holy paths has been attained. He, however, who is watchful and experienced in insight practice, will know that these states of mind do not indicate attainment of the true path, but are only symptoms or concomitants of insight meditation." L: It isn't the meditative experience that is a defilement but what latent tendencies may condition to arise in response to that experience. Larry 50843 From: "Hal" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: Satori? bardosein Hi Larry, Thanks for the snippet. As you say, the defilements of insight are so called, not because of the meditative experience itself, but because of the unwholesome tendencies that arise in response to these experiences. The _vipassanupakkilesas_ mark the tender phase of the fourth stage of purification (or the first insight knowledge). These tendencies, however, can be quite subtle leading the unskilled meditator away from the right path. I believe you've only listed 9 out of the 10 defilements of insight (_uppekha_ can also be a defilement of insight), the last being "attachment" itself (_nikanti_). For sake of completeness, here's a quote and the list taken from the Ven. Mahathera Mata Sri Nanarama Mahathera's book, _The Seven Contemplations of Insight: A Treatise on Insight Meditation_ (pp. 35-36): "From the stage of Knowledge by Comprehension up to the initial phase of the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away, the meditator becomes aware of an increasing ability to meditate without difficulty. Extraneous thoughts have subsided, the mind has become calm, clear and serene. Owing to this serenity and non-distraction, defilements decrease and the mental continuum becomes highly purified; the body, too manifestes the same serenity. As he is engaged in contemplation in the initial phase of the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away, the meditator has to be extremely cautious. For it is precisely at this point that the _imperfections of insight_ spring up, threatening to entice the unwary meditator away from the right path of practice. The _Visuddhimagga (XX, 105-125) describes ten such imperfections: (1)illumination (obhasa) (2)knowledge (nana) (3)rapturous delight (piti) (4)calmness (passaddhi) (5)bliss (sukha) (6)faith (adhimokkha) (7)energy (paggaha) (8)assurance (upatthana) (9)equanimity (upekkha) (10)attachment (nikanti)" The Ven. Sri Nanarama Mahathera then offers a very concise and helpful discussion of each of these ten _vipassanúpakkilesa_as they may occur during intensive meditative practice. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Hal, > > Regarding defilements of insight here is a snip from the Buddhist > Dictionary: > > "During such insight practice, however, may arise the 10 imperfections > (or defilements) of insight (vipassanúpakkilesa): effulgence of light > (obhása), knowledge (ñána), rapture (píti), tranquillity > (passaddhi), happiness (sukha), determination (adhimokkha), energy > (paggaha), awareness (upatthána), delight (nikanti). - See Vis.M. XX, > 105f. (App.)...... > 50844 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:32pm Subject: Re: Satori? rjkjp1 Dear Hal, I suppose it goes without saying (but I say it anyway) that what most people take to be vipassanupakilesa are nothing of the kind - they are rather just deluded states based on some experience, nothing to do with the path. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Thanks for the snippet. As you say, the defilements of insight are so > called, not because of the meditative experience itself, but because > of the unwholesome tendencies that arise in response to these > experiences. The _vipassanupakkilesas_ mark the tender phase of 50845 From: "Hal" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:23pm Subject: Re: Satori? bardosein Hi Robert, Yes, but I wouldn't be inclined to say deluded states "have nothing to do with the path" since they can also be contemplated, affording important insights. However, in the earlier stages of practice, particularly before the knowledge of mind and matter has reached full maturity (nanarupapaparichedanana)it is easy to confuse the map with the territory. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Hal, > I suppose it goes without saying (but I say it anyway) that what most > people take to be vipassanupakilesa are nothing of the kind - they are > rather just deluded states based on some experience, nothing to do > with the path. > Robertk > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > > > Thanks for the snippet. As you say, the defilements of insight are > so > > called, not because of the meditative experience itself, but because > > of the unwholesome tendencies that arise in response to these > > experiences. The _vipassanupakkilesas_ mark the tender phase of 50846 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:29pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear friends, Why does one have to wait for the > occasion to see a foul object, asubha? James: Because the Buddha specifically taught to do this. And one doesn't have to "wait" to see death, decay, and the unpleasant. It is all around us every minute- one simply chooses such unpleasant objects as the object of meditation. K. Sujin is missing this point and directly contradicting the commentary of, and the spirit of, the Satipatthana Sutta. In the Buddha's age, when he gave this sutta, it wasn't difficult to see dead bodies in various stages of decomposure. Nowadays, it is not so easy, since society likes to hide death, but it isn't impossible. D When at this moment akusala citta > arises, sati sampajañña is able to know this and when kusala citta arises, > it knows the condition for the arising of kusala. It is not necessary to > wait for the occasion to develop asubha. James: This is a direct contradiction of the commentary. And the question was even about the commentary and how to fulfill it! KS says here, in a round-about-way, to disregard the commentary. Nina, please ask her my question and have her get to the point quickly- unlike she has done with this person in Cambodia. If the citta has no calm at this > moment, it is not kusala citta. One can find out when and in which way there > can be calm. There are forty meditation subjects of samatha, asubha is not > the only meditation subject. James: So? The question was about asubha. KS is changing the subject. When there is kusala citta there cannot be > delight that accompanies clinging and one does not have to worry about the > selecion of asubha as meditation subject. People who wait for an opportunity > for the arising of kusala citta are neglectful. One should not wait for the > arising of kusala citta or select a particular object that can condition the > arising of kusala citta. > > -------- > footnotes: > 5. This commentary has been translated by Ven. Soma in ³The Way of > Mindfulness² B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. The six factors leading to the > abandoning of sense-desire are: taking up the sensuously inauspicious > subject of meditation; application for the development of the jhåna on this > meditation subject; the guarded state of the controlling faculties of sense; > moderation in food; the sympathy and support of good men in the endeavour; > stimulating talk that helps the accomplishment of the object in view. > 6. When, in the development of samatha, concentration has become more > developed, one acquires a mental image, nimitta, of the meditation subject. > ***** > Nina. Metta, James 50847 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? lbidd2 Hal: "I believe you've only listed 9 out of the 10 defilements of insight (_uppekha_ can also be a defilement of insight), the last being "attachment" itself (_nikanti_)." Hi Hal, You're right. I didn't catch it. The text says there are 10 defilements but only lists 9. I didn't really look into this list before, but giving ~Nanarama's booklet a quick skim I can't really locate the Consciousness Only view or experience among these defilements. If anything, I might put it in the "Purification of View" stage as an alternative view of nama and rupa. To use an analogy from the next stage (Purification by Overcoming Doubt), a fire that burns dependent on logs is reckoned as a "log-fire" [but it is first and foremost a fire]. Likewise, a consciousness dependent on eye and forms is reckoned as an "eye-consciousness". [But that form over there is an eye-consciousness.] Brackets indicate the alternative view. I don't really see any reference to the Consciousness Only experience in Theravada sources but I don't think it is incompatible. Larry 50848 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: Satori? buddhatrue Hi Larry (Hal, Dan, Howard, and Robert K.), Thanks again for you succinct answers. I asked this question because I was wondering if there was a corresponding description in Theravada to satori. I am getting the impression from the discussion that there are some minor references but nothing really significant. This is probably because the emphasis of Theravada and Zen are quite different. Orthodox Theravada (including the entire Pali Canon- Abhidhamma and commentaries) emphasizes a slow and gradual path, while Zen emphases a quick and sudden path- Instant Enlightenment. Personally, I tend toward the Zen perspective because I discount the Abhidhamma and some of the commentaries. Perhaps I don't really qualify as a Theravada Buddhist? (But I think I am just a theravadan rebel like Nanavira Thera ;-)) As far as the question: Did I experience anatta during my satori experience? Not really, but maybe a bit. The problem is that while there was a breakdown of subject and object, and there wasn't a separation between me and everything around me- there was still a `me' in the picture. I hadn't let go of `me' during that experience. Now, Howard sounds like he had a much deeper satori experience where he actually did let go of `me'- and the result was terrifying. But, as they say, when you fall off the horse you have to get back on again ;-)). (Best wishes Howard with your continuing mental development). Finally, the subject was raised about the imperfections of practice/insight and how such a satori experience might condition attachment to the experience. Again, as a member pointed out, that will depend on the person and what latent tendencies they have in their mind (in Zen there is the term "good spiritual roots" or a lack thereof). As for myself, I found the satori experience as an indicator that I was doing something right and that the Buddha had indeed taught the right path. I tested his path for myself and found my mind transformed, albeit temporarily- but it was still encouraging. I haven't had such an experience for a long time because I haven't been meditating extensively like in the past. Now I am focusing more on study since I don't have a teacher to guide me- I have to be my own teacher. Later, I will get back to meditating extensively (I just hope I don't get hit by a bus first! ;-)) Metta, James 50849 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:30am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 287 Conceit -maana (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] When one is young, one may compare oneself with someone who is old. When we see someone who is sick or who is about to die, we may be glad that we are healthy and alive and there may be conceit about our health. We are subject to old age, sickness and death at this very moment. There is no need for comparing. Instead of conceit there could be right understanding of the impermanence of all conditioned realities. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50850 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:33am Subject: wheel 331/333 sarahprocter... Hi Hal & All, You wrote on Sept 12th: >In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_Ledi Sayadaw states: "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries.< ***** There was quite a bit of discussion about the ‘controversial’ editor’s comments which you gave in full. I sent the note below to Bhikkhu Bodhi a few days ago with this subject heading as it didn't seem to be resolved. I received an interesting reply, which I’ll also post in two parts, as one relates to my p.s. on the ayatanas. Any further comments are welcome of course and If appropriate, I’ll f/w them to BB. Metta, S. *************************************** (27th September) Dear Ven Bodhi, There's been some discussion on DSG about a wheel editor's note. You may like to look at it and possibly give us a comment.(I'm not sure if it was your note or not). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50054 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50063 Many of us are looking forward to looking at your recently published anthology of suttas. With appreciation for all your work. I hope your health problems are manageable and that you're able to slowly make progress on the AN translation and that life at Bodhi monastery continues to suit you. With respect, Sarah (& Jon) p.s After I sent you a reply to your letter on the ayatanas and the Pahana sutta etc, I also had some further discussion with A.Sujin on a few aspects of our discussion and had thought of writing another letter with my further reflections, but didn't wish to disturb you. If you have any interest, I'd be glad to of course (though we're off on a trip to India next week, so it woudn't be for a few weeks). =============================================== 50851 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] wheel 331/333 sarahprocter... Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply (28th September), part 1 ============================== Dear Sarah, Thanks for your e-mail. I was actually thinking to write to you the day before your e-mail arrived, to ask about a rather intricate point concerning the cittas in the rupaloka (according to a table in the Comprehensive Manual), but before it became necessary to do so, I was able to solve the problem myself. I don't have a copy of the Patthana-dipani here, and my memory is cloudy (this publication must go back to 1985 or 1986). Since I was the BPS editor at the time, and the note is attributed anonymously to "The Editor," I would have to take responsibility for it, though I'm not sure that I wrote it. It could have been written by Ven. Nyanaponika. It is possible that I had recommended the Patthana-dipani to Ven. Nyanaponika while he was still editor of BPS and that he put this note in before I took over the editorship. It is also possible that this note was in the original edition of the Patthana-dipani that we used for the Wheel edition, inserted by the editor of that version, but I recall that Ven. Nyanaponika used to take strong exception to this statement that pannatti are exempt from impermanence. I remember we used to disagree over the "existential status" of concepts: he didn't agree with the Abhidhamma Commentarial view that they are non-temporal but thought that they also came within the scope of impermanence; while I (having had a philosophical background in Platonism) could easily accommodate the view that concepts are non-temporal and thus not impermanent without feeling that this involved any implicit commitment to eternalism. Regardless of our disagreement over the status of concepts, I'm not sure whether or not the statement is wrong about the canonical texts and ancient commentaries, i.e., by this I would understand the commentaries reasonably ascribed to Achariya Buddhaghosa. If there are commentarial statements from Buddhaghosa stating unambiguously that concepts are not impermanent, I would be interested in seeing them. (This gives me another reason for doubting that I wrote that statement: in 1986, I wouldn't have been able to make such a bold generalization about the ancient commentaries, many of which I had not read then, and still have not read!) ======================================================== To be contd. 50852 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:59am Subject: edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Jon and I have finished editing a couple of sets of discussions with A.Sujin and have uploaded these here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ New members, you will notice that the entire back-up of the DSG archives is also kept on this site as a precaution and also to assist members who wish to scroll through the archives easily off-line or make a search of the entire archives. (For searching purposes, I also use a Gmail account which Ven Samahita always recommends too -- it's really very fast for me to find anything which has been posted since my Gmail account started. I just use it for this occasional searching, but for those who prefer to read by threads, it also neatly stacks thread posts). The two new sets of edited discussions are: 1) Bangkok, 28th August, 2004, mostly with Jon, Sukin and myself asking questions, starting with one of Nina's arising from her Vism translations. and: 2)Bangkok, 12th & 13th January 2002, mostly with RobK, Mike, Betty and others asking questions, starting with the discussion on upadana khandha which I was discussing recently with Steve. Note: These discussions have a lot of Pali and Abhidhamma terminology. For those who haven't listened to recordings with A.Sujin before, I'd recommend listening to the two brief extracts in the DSG files section first and then listening to the other recordings on dhammastudygroup. org, i.e Sri Lanka and India 01. Good listening and we look forward to any comments as usual. Metta, Sarah ========= 50853 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:00am Subject: B.Bodhi - ayatanas sarahprocter... Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply (28th September),part2 [Dear Sarah,] I didn't reply to your earlier e-mail, mainly because I saw that our discussion was moving at right angles. You were using the Abhidhamma and Abhidhamma Commentarial standpoint to argue against by contention that there is a discrepancy between the standpoints of the suttas and the Abhidhamma and Abhidhamma Commentaries. And so if we were to proceed in that way, e-mails might have gone back and forth to eternity without ever resolving the issue. To settle the disagreement, I would have had to see a sutta that clearly demonstrates that my position, based on the suttas, was wrong, and you didn't show me any. On the other hand, now I can show you passages from the commentaries--or rather, from a commentarial style text, namely, the Visuddhimagga--which shows that the commentaries (using this word in a broad enough sense to include Vism) do not necessarily conceive the aayatanas as an all-inclusive scheme but also regard them as the bases for the arising of vinnana, and when they do so, they take the internal bases as the doors and the external bases as the objects for the arising of vinnana. The most explicit passage perhaps is at Vism 482-83 (Ppn XV.9-10): "As to just so much: ... It is for the sake of defining door-cum-object for the arising of the six consciousness groups. And here they are stated as twelve since this is how they are classed when so defined. For only the eye base is the door of arising, and only the visible-data base is the object, [for] the consciousness group comprised in a cognitive series containing eye-consciousness. Likewise for the others. But only one part of the mind base, in other words, the life-continuum mind, is the door of arising, and only the mental-object base not common to all is the object, of the sixth [consciousness group]. So they are called 'the twelve' because they define door-cum-object for the arising of the six consciousness groups." Perhaps the commentaries interpret the aayatanas in two ways, sutta and Abhidhamma, without explicitly stating that they take two standpoints. The sutta standpoint takes them as the doors and objects for the arising of the six types of consciousness. The Abhidhamma standpoint takes them as an all-inclusive scheme comparable to the five aggregates. Only from the latter standpoint does the mind-base include all six types of vinnana and the dhamma-base include the three other aggregates, subtle rupas, etc. If you have something else that is relevant to this, you can send it to me, though once I return to the Anguttara Nikaya I might not reply. I've completed the Fours and am almost finished with the Fives, but have had to take a break owing to some other work. "In the Buddha's Words" came out in late August, but perhaps it hasn't reached Hong Kong yet. With metta, also to Jonothan, Bhikkhu Bodhi =============================== S: see these links for the earlier discussion referred to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44485 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45167 50854 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:02am Subject: BB-CMA reprint sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Yesterday, 3Oth September, I also received this follow-up note from Ben Bodhi on the reprint of CMA ============================================ Dear Sarah, I hope this reaches you before you leave for your trip to India. I should have thought of this when I wrote a few days ago, but it slipped my mind. The Comprehensive Manual has to be reprinted. I have sent this note to Ven. Nyanatusita, who is now the editor for BPS: There is one additional correction to the Manual of Abhidhamma. On page 241, line 7-8, we say: "Thus they are not included among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." This is incorrect and should be changed to read: "However, they are still included among the ultimate realities (paramatthà dhammà)." This is one among several corrections I had gotten from the late Ven. U Silananda, or rather, from his supporter in Singapore. Were there any other corrections that you have noted arising from our earlier correspondence? I want to try to keep corrections within the line so that pagination will not be affected. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi ============================= 50855 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB-CMA reprint sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I sent the following holding reply to Ven Bodhi this morning. If anyone has any comments/corrections in response to his letter on CMA (keeping in mind his comment about the pagination etc), please let me know asap. I'll look forward to any other replies as usual on any other aspects of his comments. Metta, S. ===== Dear Ven Bodhi, Thank you very much for your other letter. I'll have to reply after my trip to give your comments their due. On the detailed point you thought of writing about -- of course I (or others in DSG with more abhidhamma expertise) would always be delighted to help if we can with any technical points. I'm just rushing out of the door, so I'll look at CMA later. I'm very glad to see the correction below from U Silananda. This is the main one we discussed and agreed on before as I recall. with respect, Sarah ============== --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Yesterday, 3Oth September, I also received this follow-up note from Ben > Bodhi on the reprint of CMA > ============================================ > > Dear Sarah, > > I hope this reaches you before you leave for your trip to India. I > should > have thought of this when I wrote a few days ago, but it slipped my > mind. > > The Comprehensive Manual has to be reprinted. I have sent this note to > Ven. Nyanatusita, who is now the editor for BPS: 50856 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: wheel 331/333 bardosein Sarah, Thanks for posting this! I was delighted to read the Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments. Hal 50857 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: wheel 331/333 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Sarah, > > Thanks for posting this! I was delighted to read the Ven. Bhikkhu > Bodhi's comments. > > Hal I also agree with Hal! This is truly phenomenal to read such correspondence with B. Bodhi. I feel as if I am witnessing history in the making! I recall my recent post that I sent to Phil about why I like to participate in DSG (only), even though I disagree with the founder's philosophy (KS), and I said that it was because I can find the highest dhamma here. This exchange proves my point. Thanks again. Metta, James 50858 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin jjnbdal Dear Sarah: Thank you for making these available to us. Best Regards, jaran --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Jon and I have finished editing a couple of sets of > discussions with > A.Sujin and have uploaded these here: > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > New members, you will notice that the entire back-up of the > DSG archives > is also kept on this site as a precaution and also to assist > members who > wish to scroll through the archives easily off-line or make a > search of > the entire archives. > > (For searching purposes, I also use a Gmail account which Ven > Samahita > always recommends too -- it's really very fast for me to find > anything > which has been posted since my Gmail account started. I just > use it for > this occasional searching, but for those who prefer to read by > threads, it > also neatly stacks thread posts). > > The two new sets of edited discussions are: > > 1) Bangkok, 28th August, 2004, mostly with Jon, Sukin and > myself asking > questions, starting with one of Nina's arising from her Vism > translations. > > and: > > 2)Bangkok, 12th & 13th January 2002, mostly with RobK, Mike, > Betty and > others asking questions, starting with the discussion on > upadana khandha > which I was discussing recently with Steve. > > Note: These discussions have a lot of Pali and Abhidhamma > terminology. For > those who haven't listened to recordings with A.Sujin before, > I'd > recommend listening to the two brief extracts in the DSG files > section > first and then listening to the other recordings on > dhammastudygroup. org, > i.e Sri Lanka and India 01. > > Good listening and we look forward to any comments as usual. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > 50859 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An overdose for Htoo 6? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo (& James, Sukin) --- htootintnaing wrote: > Thanks for this very post. This is very new to me. I have not thought > it yet. > > That is nibbana and appanaa. > > What I am sure is all magga and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas. > > I agree that nibbana cannot be dealt with appanaa-ruupa-jhaana. .... S: I believe that that while lokuttara cittas are said to have 'appanaa-arammana',because they are equivalent to jhana in the way they experience the object, i.e nibbana, they are NOT jhana cittas, not samadhi, not appanaa (absorption) cittas. Here's a quote from the Mulapariyaya sutta comy I came across the other day: "Abandoning by suppression is the abandonment of the hindrances, etc, by the obstructive power of concentration, either at the level of access (upacaara) or absorption (appanaa). This is likened to preventing the growth of water-moss by striking the surface of the water with a pot. "Abandoning by eradication is the abandonment of the host of defilements on the side of the origin (of suffering) by completely severing the possibility of their occurrence. It is achieved through the development of the four supramundane paths, and occurs in the individual mental-continua of the four individuals attaining to these paths." With regard to your p.s about James and textual passages, yes, he'd like you to quote more and me to quote less:). Your p.s to him that he couldn't follow contained all good material. Perhaps we can try to simplify it as he suggests. When I return, James, I'd be happy to discuss that eightfold path factor you think we miss out on without using any Pali terms or textual references if you like:). Btw, I don't agree with your comments on the ayatanas in #50691, #50725, #50729 or #50446 (maybe more on my return), or your references to satipatthana arising at nama or rupa there. Also on santirana cittas in #50452, the same citta can have different functions depending on what 'job' it's doing - not always 'investigating function'. #50410 on hadaya vatthu and sotapatthi magga cittas not arising in aruupa realms. The reason they cannot arise is I believe because there's no chance to hear the teachings and develop understanding of sense-door dhammas. In your list of reference texts, pls tell me more about: -Jinatthapakaasanii -Samvegavatthudiipanii I'm not familiar with these. On your unfinished business -- pls keep giving DSG priority! Metta, Sarah p.s I think this is Sukin's post you were looking for - I just typed 'Sukin' in the 'search' on the DSG homepage:) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50414 50860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Hi James (and Tep), I am closing Email Sunday night for five weeks (India), but I like to answer you. I perfectly understand your remarks. Lodewijk found that the question was not answered straight and he objected. He said, you can post this part of Cambodia but see what reactions you will have. I tried to give him some explanations, but he was annoyed, James. Sometimes the Dhamma sessions in Bangkok upset him for more than one day. He really tries to attend them, but he just cannot. In the West people want a straight, logical answer to their questions, but the Thai way is different, it is more round about. I am used to the Thai way and for me it is fine. Curious to know what Tep thinks about this. But he lived for a long time in U.S. You can notice that when someone asks a question, Kh. Sujin does not answer straight but starts to give an explanation of basics. People have to understand basics otherwise they may not understand what follows. Perhaps this may help to become less irritated. And we should not believe that the logical, Western way is the only way to approach problems. She also puts a counter question instead of answering straight. This is done in order to make people consider more deeply. But, for some it can also cause irritation. Now I look into your remarks. You are quite right to bring them up. op 01-10-2005 08:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > quote: Why does one have to wait for the >> occasion to see a foul object, asubha? > > James: Because the Buddha specifically taught to do this. And one > doesn't have to "wait" to see death, decay, and the unpleasant. It > is all around us every minute- one simply chooses such unpleasant > objects as the object of meditation. --------- N: Howard said that Achan Cha gave different explanations to different people and seems to contradict himself. I heard you say that Kh Sujin often contradicts herself. I think we have to consider the context, the occasion when something is said. That is why we have to be so careful when citing Kh Sujin, it may be out of context. People may wonder: she said this before, and now she is saying this, how come? As to asubha, the crux is in the word choosing: it depends on conditions what subject offers itself at a certain moment. She just said (Mp3) that some people need to think of asubha first and are then reminded to be aware of the present dhamma, and some can be aware of dhammas as elements straight away. it is a personal matter. She wants to stress: beware of a self choosing, or desiring (with lobha) to have more awareness, to possess it. ---------- K. Sujin is missing this point > and directly contradicting the commentary of, and the spirit of, the > Satipatthana Sutta. -------- N: She gave many explanations that each section of mindfulness of the body is valuable, like asubha. It can bring us back to dhamma right now. We are often forgetful, but all these sections are reminders for us to be aware just now. She spoke about each section in detail, pointing out how helpful it is. Here you see again: at this occasion she stresses this, at another occasion she stresses another aspect. -------- quote: When at this moment akusala citta >> arises, sati sampajañña is able to know this and when kusala citta > arises, >> it knows the condition for the arising of kusala. It is not > necessary to >> wait for the occasion to develop asubha. ------- N: This is meant for a person who thinks: I must first develop samatha with asubha, I must do something else first before there can be awareness of nama and rupa. This is a hindrance, an obstruction. See above for the great value that is given to the sutta. It all depends where the citta goes: so fast, so fast. ------- quote: If the citta has no calm at this >> moment, it is not kusala citta. One can find out when and in which > way there >> can be calm. There are forty meditation subjects of samatha, > asubha is not >> the only meditation subject. > > James: So? The question was about asubha. KS is changing the > subject. ------- N: Meant for the person who thinks he must concentrate on asubha first. There is also calm conditioned by considering the Buddha's virtues. But I agree this is not a straight, logical answer as you would like to hear. However, it puts aubha in a wider context. Asubha is not the only thing in the world. Why choose especially that? If there is an opportunity I bring it up, but again, there may not be a straight, logical answer. Perhaps your and Lodewijk's objections may help people to try to get the essence from Kh. Sujin's explanations, seeing what is valuable in her answers, not minding that the answer is not what they expected. Lodewijk added just now that people are entangled in their Western way of logical thinking, and that this is not the only way. He knows. I found it unpleasant to bring it up at the sessions but now I have an opportunity. I understand that many people may have trouble listening to Kh Sujin. Also at the Pali list I noticed that people are inclined to compare the Pali with the English grammar, but one of the teachers wants to help people to think in Pali. This appeals to me, I only like Pali examples to illustrate a point of the grammar. When I learn a language I want to think in that language. The same with Thai. I like to do away with prejudices. Nina. 50861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? nilovg Hi Larry and all, I know nothing about this subject, but I understood that one has to go through the stages of tender insight before there can be vipassana defilements. That is quite something, is't it? It means that one directly realizes seeing now as being different from visible object, and that one also has begun to see the arising and falling away of nama and rupa separately, one at a time. If this is not the case then a person's extraordinary experiences must be due to other conditions, stemming from the past, even past lives. The development of concentration can lead to superpowers like walking on water, flying through the air. Concentration may be right concentration, kusala, or wrong concentration, akusala. Both may have as effect special experiences. Rob K gave as example that he had a radiating appearance that others noticed and he found out that this was due to lobha. Lobha can play us tricks, taking into consideration the inherent tendency to it we all have. When jhaana is the right jhaana it is accompanied by paññaa and it has as effect being removed from the hindrances such as lobha and dosa. When one takes delight in special experiences or there is fear (dosa, conditioned by lobha), one has to scrutinize oneself as to the presence of the hindrances. Also: does such an experience have a positive effect on one's daily life? Is there more understanding of seeing, thinking, lobha or dosa at this moment? This is the test. Also: such experiences are condiitoned dhammas, they do not arise without conditions, and then they are gone immediately. What is the use of clinging to them, or thinking of them again and again? As to the three characteristics, realizing them is very precise. One may have great confidence in anattaa, be firmly convinced of this truth, but it may still be on the theoretical level, that is, so long as this dhamma appearing now or that dhamma appearing now is not realized then and there as non-self. If that is not the case, the wrong view of self cannot be eradicated. Nina. op 01-10-2005 01:28 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > My experience of Consciousness Only is identical to yours. It arose > after meditative concentration on rupa. The sense of being apart from > external phenomena dissolved and with it the fundamental dualism of self > and other. This school is also called Yogacara because meditation (yoga) > is a major factor. In the Middle Way analysis is the major factor. > > Another way to experience "nothing to cling to" is simply by means of > impermanence. 50862 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? robmoult Hi KH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "khcheah33" wrote: > Hi Dhamma friends, > I was at the KL Gen. Hospital(lunch-break), visiting a colleague > who is recovering from head injuries, the result of a freak accident > on 28-8-05. It's about 7~8 days now since her coming out from a semi- > conscious state. > According to her family members, the last 2~3 days, beside > complaining of severe headache, she was asking what happened to her, > and when told she had an accident - she asked why she was the victim > and why she has to suffer all these pains?? > How did they reply? > Answer given : "It's her fate."(a belief that sthg good-or-bad > comes along with birth). The husband added:"Maybe she has to repaid > her kamma debt." > I only gave a smile,nodding my head. {of course not in total > agreement}. ===== Hi KH, The idea that what happens to somebody is a "result of their kamma" is common and leads to a lot of misunderstandings. Imagine the situation where a kid throws a rock at me, which hits me on the arm and causes me pain. Let us put this situation under a microscope and explore where kamma plays a part. Firstly, my kamma is not a condition for the birth or existence of the kid. The birth or existence of the kid is the result of the kid's own kamma, not mine. The existence of the rock has nothing to do with my kamma. The kid's decision to throw a rock has nothing to do with my kamma. So far, we have a rock flying though the air. The reason that this rock is flying through the air has nothing to do with my kamma. Now my body happens to be in the trajectory of this rock. Is this due to kamma? Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma P310 lists the conditioning states and conditioned states for kamma (we are only looking at asynchronous kamma here). The conditioning states (that which causes the kamma condition to arise) are "33 past wholesome and unwholesome volitions". How do we get to 33? - 12 unwholesome sense sphere cittas (8 lobha-mula + 2 dosa-mula + 2 moha-mula) - 8 wholesome sense sphere cittas (unprompted / prompted, with or without wisdom, with pleasant or neutral feeling) - 5 wholesome fine-material sphere cittas (for each jhana) - 4 wholesome immaterial sphere cittas (for each object; space, consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception) - 4 path cittas (attaining sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahant) Bhikku Bodhi lists the conditioned states of kamma condition as "36 resultant cittas, 38 cetasikas, kamma-born matter". Let's examine each of these more closely. How do we get 36 cittas? - 5 sense consciousness cittas resulting from past unwholesome kamma (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) - 5 sense consciousness cittas resulting from past wholesome kamma (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) - 1 receiving citta resulting from past unwholesome kamma - 1 receiving citta resulting from past wholesome kamma - 1 investigating citta resulting from past unwholesome kamma - 2 investigating citta resulting from past wholesome kamma - 8 wholesome sense sphere resultant cittas (unprompted / prompted, with or without wisdom, with pleasant or neutral feeling) - 5 fine-material sphere resultant cittas (for each jhana) - 4 immaterial sphere resultant cittas (for each object; space, consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception) - 4 fruit cittas (attaining sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahant) The 38 cetasikas are those which can arise as part of the above listed cittas. Kamma-born matter is: - Life faculty (that which supports rupas which are alive) - Heart base (that which supports cittas except the 10 sense consciousness cittas) - Masculinity / Feminity - Eye-sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, nose-sensitivity, tongue- sensitivity, body-sensitivity (that which supports the 10 sense consciousness cittas) For example, eye-sensitivity is the sensitive part of the eye which supports eye-consciousness citta. In modern jargon, this roughly corresponds to the retina which supports seeing. So when does kamma come into play? There are two options: - Patisandhi: at the instant of rebirth - Pavatta / Pavatti: during continued existence At the instant of rebirth, we have the rebirth-lnking (patisandhi) citta. Kamma is a principle factor in the arising of the rebirth- linking citta. The conditioning state for this kamma is the javana cittas from the death-proximate citta process (marana-vitthi). The conditioned state is the patisandhi-citta. There are 19 possible patisandhi-cittas (which one depends on kamma condition): - 1 investigating citta resulting from past unwholesome kamma: patisandhi for beings in woeful planes - 1 investigating citta resulting from past wholesome kamma: patisandhi for disabled humans - 8 wholesome sense sphere resultant cittas (unprompted / prompted, with or without wisdom, with pleasant or neutral feeling): patisandhi for humans and devas - 5 fine-material sphere resultant cittas (for each jhana): patisandhi for beings born in fine material worlds - 4 immaterial sphere resultant cittas (for each object; space, consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception): patisandhi for beings born in immaterial worlds At the instant of rebirth, three types of matter are formed: - Body-sensitivity - Heart base (that which supports cittas except the 10 sense consciousness cittas) - Either masculinity or feminity These three are arise through kamma condition with the conditioning state being the javana citta of the death proximate citta process. The javana citta of the death proximate citta process later conditions the arising of: - Eye-sensitivity (7th week after conception) - Ear-sensitivity (8th week after conception) - Nose-sensitivity (9th week after conception) - Tongue-sensitivity (10th week after conception) During the course of existence, the patisandhi citta arises regularly, though now it is called a bhavanga citta. Throughout the course of existence, the bhavanga citta remains the same. Throughout the course of existence, the bhavanga citta is a resultant of the javana citta of the death proximate citta process from the previous existence. During the course of existence, the eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue- and body-sensitivity cittas continue to arise. Throughout the course of existence, these cittas are a resultant of the javana citta of the death proximate citta process from the previous existence. So if somebody is born blind because of their kamma, they will remain blind throughout their life. Now let's return to the rock flying through space, about to hit my arm. The fact that my arm exists is due to kamma. The fact that I am able to feel the impact (body-sensitivity) is also due to kamma. The conditioning state for both of these is the javana citta of the death proximate citta process from my previous existence. The fact that my arm happens to be in the trajectory of the flying rock has nothing to do with kamma. There are many other conditions which cause to be true (natural decisive support, pakatupanissaya, is among my "favourites"). When the rock hits my arm, a tangible object (something that can be sensed) arises. Let us now look at the citta process which takes this "tangible object" as its object. - The first three cittas of this process are bhavanga cittas. As mentioned above, they are kamma result of the javana citta of the death proximate citta process from my previous existence. - The adverting citta is functional (arising is not related to kamma). The adverting citta is the first citta in the process which takes this "tangible object" as its object. The intrinsic nature of the "tangible object" will be known at this instant. In this case, the intrinsic nature of the "tangible object" is "undesireable" (anittha). - The fact that the intrinsic nature of the "tangible object" is "undesireable" is a condition for unwholesome kamma to ripen. This unwholesome kamma causes the next citta in the process to be unwholesome resultant body consciousness with painful feeling. - The subsequent receiving citta and investigating citta will also be unwholesome resultant. - The determining citta is functional - The javana cittas create new kamma In summary, we have kamma working: - At time of rebirth and continuously through existence: applies to life, gender, sense faculties, etc. - At an instant during existence: applies to specific cittas in the sense door citta process and conditioned by the intrinsic nature of the sense object In the first case (at the time of rebirth and continuously through existence), the conditioning state is the javana citta of the death proximate citta process from my previous existence. In the second case (at an instant during existence), the conditioning state falls into the category of "unconjecturable" (see AN IV.77). KH, I believe that you intend to review this subject with members of your Abhidhamma study group. For that reason, I took a purely Abhidhamma view on the subject. There is a lot of meat here for discussion :-) Please let me know if you or your group have any questions. Earlier this year, I dedicated an entire Sunday morning class at the Vihara to this subject as we discussed the tsunami and kamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 50863 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:46am Subject: Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? rjkjp1 Dear RobM, I find it hard to understand what you wrote in the post. Perhaps you can explain these examples from the Dhammapada: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm IX (11) The Story of Three Groups of Persons While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (127) of this book, with reference to questions raised by three groups of bhikkhus concerning three extraordinary incidents. The first group: A group of bhikkhus were on their way to pay homage to the Buddha and they stopped at a village on the way. Some people were cooking alms-food for those bhikkhus when one of the houses caught fire and a ring of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, a crow came flying, got caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead in the central part of the village. The bhikkhus seeing the dead crow observed that only the Buddha would be able to explain for what evil deed this crow had to die in this manner. After taking alms- food they continued on their journey to pay homage to the Buddha, and also to ask about the unfortunate crow. The second group: Another group of bhikkhus wore travelling in a boat; they too wore on their way to pay homage to the Buddha. When they were in the middle of the ocean the boat could not be moved. So, lots were drawn to find out who the unlucky one was; three times the lot fell on the wife of the skipper. Then the skipper said sorrowfully, "Many people should not die on account of this unlucky woman; tie a pot of sand to her neck and threw her into the water so that I would not see her." The woman was thrown into the sea as instructed by the skipper and the ship could move on. On arrival at their destination. the bhikkhus disembarked and continued on their way to the Buddha. They also intended to ask the Buddha due to what evil kamma the unfortunate woman was thrown overboard. The third group: A group of seven bhikkhus were also on their way to pay homage to the Buddha. On the way, they enquired at a monastery whether there was any suitable place for them to take shelter for the night in the neighbourhood. They were directed to a cave, and there they spent the night; but in the middle of the night, a large boulder slipped off from above and effectively closed the entrance. In the morning, the bhikkhus from the nearby monastery coming to the cave saw what had happened and they went to bring people from seven villages. With the help of these people they tried to move the boulder, but it was of no avail. Thus, the seven bhikkhus were trapped in the cave without food or water for seven days. On the seventh day, the boulder moved miraculously by itself, and the bhikkhus came out and continued their way to the Buddha. They also intended to ask the Buddha due to what previous evil deed they were thus shut up for seven days in a cave. The three groups of travellers met on the way and together they went to the Buddha. Each group related to the Buddha what they had seen or experienced on their way and the Buddha answered their questions. The Buddha answer to the first group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. It could not be coaxed to do any work; it would lie down chewing the cud or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on account of this lazy, stubborn animal; so in anger he tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya. and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." The Buddha's answer to the second group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a woman who had a pet dog. She used to take the dog along with her wherever she went and young boys of the city poked fun at her. She was very angry and felt so ashamed that she planned to kill the dog. She filled a pot with sand, tied it round the neck of the dog and threw it into the water; and the dog was drowned. On account of this evil deed that woman had suffered for a long time in niraya and in serving the remaining part of her punishment, she had been thrown into the water to drown in the last one hundred existences." The Buddha's answer to the third group: "Bhikkhus, once, seven cowherds saw an iguana going into a mound and they dosed all the seven outlets of the mound with twigs and branches of trees. After closing the outlets they went away, completely forgetting the iguana that was trapped in the mound. Only after seven days, they remembered what they had done and hurriedly returned to the scene of their mischief and let out the iguana. On account of this evil deed, those seven had been imprisoned together for seven days without any food, in the last fourteen existences." Then, a bhikkhu remarked, "O indeed! There is no escape from evil consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, or in the ocean, or in a cave." To him, the Buddha said, "Yes, Bhikkhu! You are right; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is no place which is beyond the reach of evil consequences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed."" Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > Hi KH, > > The idea that what happens to somebody is a "result of their kamma" > is common and leads to a lot of misunderstandings. > > Imagine the situation where a kid throws a rock at me, which hits me > on the arm and causes me pain. Let us put this situation under a > microscope and explore where kamma plays a part. > > Firstly, my kamma is not a condition for the birth or existence of > the kid. The birth or existence of the kid is the result of the kid's > own kamma, not mine. > > The existence of the rock has nothing to do with my kamma. > > The kid's decision to throw a rock has nothing to do with my kamma. > > So far, we have a rock flying though the air. The reason that this > rock is flying through the air has nothing to do with my kamma. > > Now my body happens to be in the trajectory of this rock. Is this due > to kamma? > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma P310 lists the > conditioning states and conditioned states for kamma (we are only > looking at asynchronous kamma here). The conditioning states (that > which causes the kamma condition to arise) are "33 past wholesome and > unwholesome volitions". How do we get to 33? > - 12 unwholesome sense sphere cittas (8 lobha-mula + 2 dosa-mula + 2 > moha-mula) > - 8 wholesome sense sphere cittas (unprompted / prompted, with or > without wisdom, with pleasant or neutral feeling) > - 5 wholesome fine-material sphere cittas (for each jhana) > - 4 wholesome immaterial sphere cittas (for each object; space, > consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception) > - 4 path cittas (attaining sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahant) > > Bhikku Bodhi lists the conditioned states of kamma condition as "36 > resultant cittas, 38 cetasikas, kamma-born matter". Let's examine > each of these more closely. How do we get 36 cittas? > - 5 sense consciousness cittas resulting from past unwholesome kamma > (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) > - 5 sense consciousness cittas resulting from past wholesome kamma > (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) > - 1 receiving citta resulting from past unwholesome kamma > - 1 receiving citta resulting from past wholesome kamma > - 1 investigating citta resulting from past unwholesome kamma > - 2 investigating citta resulting from past wholesome kamma > - 8 wholesome sense sphere resultant cittas (unprompted / prompted, > with or without wisdom, with pleasant or neutral feeling) > - 5 fine-material sphere resultant cittas (for each jhana) > - 4 immaterial sphere resultant cittas (for each object; space, > consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception) > - 4 fruit cittas (attaining sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahant) > > The 38 cetasikas are those which can arise as part of the above > listed cittas. > > Kamma-born matter is: > - Life faculty (that which supports rupas which are alive) > - Heart base (that which supports cittas except the 10 sense > consciousness cittas) > - Masculinity / Feminity > - Eye-sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, nose-sensitivity, tongue- > sensitivity, body-sensitivity (that which supports the 10 sense > consciousness cittas) > > For example, eye-sensitivity is the sensitive part of the eye which > supports eye-consciousness citta. In modern jargon, this roughly > corresponds to the retina which supports seeing. > > So when does kamma come into play? There are two options: > - Patisandhi: at the instant of rebirth > - Pavatta / Pavatti: during continued existence > > At the instant of rebirth, we have the rebirth-lnking (patisandhi) > citta. Kamma is a principle factor in the arising of the rebirth- > linking citta. The conditioning state for this kamma is the javana > cittas from the death-proximate citta process (marana-vitthi). The > conditioned state is the patisandhi-citta. There are 19 possible > patisandhi-cittas (which one depends on kamma condition): > - 1 investigating citta resulting from past unwholesome kamma: > patisandhi for beings in woeful planes > - 1 investigating citta resulting from past wholesome kamma: > patisandhi for disabled humans > - 8 wholesome sense sphere resultant cittas (unprompted / prompted, > with or without wisdom, with pleasant or neutral feeling): patisandhi > for humans and devas > - 5 fine-material sphere resultant cittas (for each jhana): > patisandhi for beings born in fine material worlds > - 4 immaterial sphere resultant cittas (for each object; space, > consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non- perception): > patisandhi for beings born in immaterial worlds > > At the instant of rebirth, three types of matter are formed: > - Body-sensitivity > - Heart base (that which supports cittas except the 10 sense > consciousness cittas) > - Either masculinity or feminity > > These three are arise through kamma condition with the conditioning > state being the javana citta of the death proximate citta process. > > The javana citta of the death proximate citta process later > conditions the arising of: > - Eye-sensitivity (7th week after conception) > - Ear-sensitivity (8th week after conception) > - Nose-sensitivity (9th week after conception) > - Tongue-sensitivity (10th week after conception) > > During the course of existence, the patisandhi citta arises > regularly, though now it is called a bhavanga citta. Throughout the > course of existence, the bhavanga citta remains the same. Throughout > the course of existence, the bhavanga citta is a resultant of the > javana citta of the death proximate citta process from the previous > existence. > > During the course of existence, the eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue- and > body-sensitivity cittas continue to arise. Throughout the course of > existence, these cittas are a resultant of the javana citta of the > death proximate citta process from the previous existence. So if > somebody is born blind because of their kamma, they will remain blind > throughout their life. > > Now let's return to the rock flying through space, about to hit my > arm. The fact that my arm exists is due to kamma. The fact that I am > able to feel the impact (body-sensitivity) is also due to kamma. The > conditioning state for both of these is the javana citta of the death > proximate citta process from my previous existence. > > The fact that my arm happens to be in the trajectory of the flying > rock has nothing to do with kamma. There are many other conditions > which cause to be true (natural decisive support, pakatupanissaya, is > among my "favourites"). When the rock hits my arm, a tangible object > (something that can be sensed) arises. > > Let us now look at the citta process which takes this "tangible > object" as its object. > - The first three cittas of this process are bhavanga cittas. As > mentioned above, they are kamma result of the javana citta of the > death proximate citta process from my previous existence. > - The adverting citta is functional (arising is not related to > kamma). The adverting citta is the first citta in the process which > takes this "tangible object" as its object. The intrinsic nature of > the "tangible object" will be known at this instant. In this case, > the intrinsic nature of the "tangible object" is "undesireable" > (anittha). > - The fact that the intrinsic nature of the "tangible object" > is "undesireable" is a condition for unwholesome kamma to ripen. This > unwholesome kamma causes the next citta in the process to be > unwholesome resultant body consciousness with painful feeling. > - The subsequent receiving citta and investigating citta will also be > unwholesome resultant. > - The determining citta is functional > - The javana cittas create new kamma > > In summary, we have kamma working: > - At time of rebirth and continuously through existence: applies to > life, gender, sense faculties, etc. > - At an instant during existence: applies to specific cittas in the > sense door citta process and conditioned by the intrinsic nature of > the sense object > > In the first case (at the time of rebirth and continuously through > existence), the conditioning state is the javana citta of the death > proximate citta process from my previous existence. > > In the second case (at an instant during existence), the conditioning > state falls into the category of "unconjecturable" (see AN IV.77). > > KH, I believe that you intend to review this subject with members of > your Abhidhamma study group. For that reason, I took a purely > Abhidhamma view on the subject. There is a lot of meat here for > discussion :-) Please let me know if you or your group have any > questions. > > Earlier this year, I dedicated an entire Sunday morning class at the > Vihara to this subject as we discussed the tsunami and kamma. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 50864 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: BB-CMA reprint robmoult Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Yesterday, 3Oth September, I also received this follow-up note from Ben > Bodhi on the reprint of CMA > ============================================ > > Dear Sarah, > > I hope this reaches you before you leave for your trip to India. I should > have thought of this when I wrote a few days ago, but it slipped my mind. > > The Comprehensive Manual has to be reprinted. I have sent this note to > Ven. Nyanatusita, who is now the editor for BPS: > > There is one additional correction to the Manual of Abhidhamma. > > On page 241, line 7-8, we say: "Thus they are not included among the > ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." > > This is incorrect and should be changed to read: > > "However, they are still included among the ultimate realities > (paramatthà dhammà)." > > This is one among several corrections I had gotten from the late Ven. U > Silananda, or rather, from his supporter in Singapore. Were there any > other corrections that you have noted arising from our earlier > correspondence? I want to try to keep corrections within the line so that > pagination will not be affected. > > With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi > ============================= ===== In my post #15720, I listed a number of corrections to BB's CMA. They may be the same as the list from U Silananda that BB mentions above, but you might want to forward them to BB just in case. Metta, Rob M :-) 50865 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] is compassion associated with joyful feeling? sarahprocter... Hi Antony, Hope you're doing well. It's always good to see your research. --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Group, > > I am researching the topic of compassion. > > I read the Useful Posts with interest and have a question: > > In the Abhidhamma, is compassion associated with joyful feeling? ... S: Others have already replied that it may be with joyful or neutral feeling (never with unpleasant feeling). .... > Kamalashila wrote: > "In the karuna-bhavana practice we don't try to develop compassion; > we simply develop metta, friendliness. The difference is in the > object of meditation - a suffering person." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/2016 > ... S: I think it's important to appreciate that compassion is a separate cetasika (mental factor) from adosa which may manifest as metta when the object is a being. So they have different qualities as well as different objects. Sympathetic joy is a separate cetasika with its own characteristic as well. Your reply reminded me that I had meant to get back to you on the sutta translation, MN 61, in which you thought Nanamoli/Bodhi had made a serious mistake. You mentioned this when we met and gave more details here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48471 >Antony: I've found a significant correction to Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi Majjhima Nikaya 61 >translation: +++++++ >Below is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation. > >This is the correction ("except for"): >"[Similarly with verbal and mental acts, except for the last >paragraph under mental acts:]" >Harmful mental actions don't have to be confessed, just be ashamed >of. >+++++ >"Having performed a bodily act, you should reflect on it... If, on >reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the >affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily act >with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess >it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable >companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should >exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that >it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action >with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay >mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental >qualities. > >[Similarly with verbal and mental acts, except for the last >paragraph under mental acts:] > >"Having performed a mental act, you should reflect on it... If, on >reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the >affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental act >with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel >distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it. Feeling distressed... you >should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you >know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental >action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay >mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental >qualities. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061-tb0.html +++++++ S: I wonder if you read the footnote Nanamoli/Bodhi give for '639' after substituting mind for body? It says: "In this section, however, the phrase 'then you should confess such a bodily action...and laid it open' is replaced by the following: 'Then you should be repelled, ashamed, and disgusted by that mental action. Having become repelled, ashamed, and disgusted by that mental action...' This substitution is made because unwholesome thoughts, unlike bodily and verbal transgressions, do not require confession as a means of exoneration. Both Horner in MLS and ~Nm in Ms missed this variation." S: It may be you have a translation without this note and in any case, it's easy to miss it because it's not in the main text. Pls let me know if there is still an error as you see it. Good point to consider about confessions. As I write to you, I'm also looking at your comments and remembering our discussion about Visakha and performing meritorious deeds for the purpose of certain results. This reminds me of a discussion I had with James recently on the benefits of metta. I think it's one thing to understand and appreciate the benefits of wholesome deeds and mental states and another thing entirely to try and have metta or peform dana in order to get such results. Whenever there is any intention of getting certain results for oneself (a more metta-ME, praise from others, better sleep, good rebirth or whatever), then any wholesome states involved will be very weak. I'd like to see your further comments as I know you'll have been reflecting further. Again, as I look at your post and the delightful anecdote about Munindra with his quote" 'The practice of the dhamma is to learn to be simple, not to be a simpleton', reminds me of him as we head off for Bodh Gaya this time next week and those same marketplaces where he used to bargain for peanuts and cloth:). Finally, I don't think I replied to your question in the same post about what I mean by 'images and concepts' in the quote you attribute to me: 'The seeing is real, the thinking is real, but the images and concepts are purely imagined. Let them go.' By 'images and concepts', I mean all that is conceptualised by thinking. Seeing is real. It can be the object of satipatthana when it appears now. Visible object is real, hearing is real, sound, smell, taste, touch, thinking, metta, compassion, anger are real.... However, Munindra, Sarah, peanuts, cloth, Bodh Gaya and so on are mentally conceived, imagined as we talk now. We delight in stories about these concepts and images, we pay attention to the details of what we see and hear, but we forget all about awareness of what is being directly experienced while we talk or 'proliferate' such stories:). Life exists in a moment -- it exists in the experiencing of one reality only which appears now. Concepts and images are not realities and knowledge about them can never eradicated suffering. Thank you again for so clearly relating our discussions together. I hope we have more when we next visit Sydney. Please keep sharing your research meanwhile. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, on compassion to Antony, you said 'In both karuna and mudita there always are 'metta' and 'tatramajjhattataa'. I think you mean there are always adosa cetasika and tatramajjhatttataa cetasika, rather than metta. =========== 50866 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:20am Subject: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... philofillet Hi Matt, Howard and all Thanks for writing, Matt. I've got a few of your posts in my personal Useful Posts and get a lot out of them, and from listening to you at one of the talks. You speak with a lot of conviction about Dhamma. Thanks also, Howard. I will make a few comments in response to your response, and leave it at that, if you don't mind, for the time being. I really do feel like extricating myself from Dhamma discussion for a little while. Listening is good for me these days. (Thanks for the latest batch of talks, Sarah and Jon.) Phil > > >the problem is mine - if there is so much aversion to others' posts > > >and so much greed about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a > > >break. > > Matt > > Just in case you are reading posts. > > > > Dhammas of nama and rupa, arising and falling away, give rise to the concept > > > > that there is a world and I exist in it. Nama dhammas (cita and chetasikas) > > have characteristics that never change, however, what nama experiences gives > > > > rise to concepts that will vary. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > The characteristics of cittas and cetasikas never change, you say. I > presume you must mean something by this that is different, Matt, from what > appears on the face of it, because on the face of it you seem to be speaking of > conditioned dhammas that are permanent. Phil: Virya is virya, dosa is dosa, mana is mana, whether for an elephant (?) or a human, whether for Phil or Howard. All cetasikas have characteristic, functions, manifestations - I'm unclear on the difference between these, and that's fine. But virya is virya, metta is metta, hiri is hiri, and can be known directly (though not yet) in a way that is beyond words. They rise and fall away instantly, so in that sense they are impermanent. But they do have characteristics that can be understood directly when insight is developed to great degrees. For now, it is enough for us to know nama from rupa - not as easy a task as it might seem! (I understand this especially when considering feelings) > ----------------------------------- > Because of conditions and rupas experienced > > > there is the concept “I am Philip, I am living in Japan, I am married to a > > Japanese, I was born in such a place, these are my parents and family, I > > grew up here and went to school there, this is my occupation, I like this > > and I don’t like that, and etcâ€?E Had conditions been different and nama had > > > > arisen and experienced different rupas then the thoughts that now arise may > > be “I am James, I am living in . . . . . etc. Because of conditions there > > are concepts of being of a particular, nationality, race, religion, > > intelligence, nature and having certain views and beliefs, but had > > conditions been different then the concepts would not be the same. > > > > No matter what concepts nama and rupa condition, because of ignorance, there > > > > arises thinking with the thoughts, “this is me, this is who I am, these are > > my beliefsâ€?E The concepts that arise as beliefs are conditioned, but because > > > > they do arise they are taken to be “my beliefsâ€?E and just like the concepts > > > > of “meâ€?Eand “mineâ€?Ethey are clung to. > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Now the fun begins! ;-) > --------------------------------------------- Phil: Yipee! Let me put on my party hat. > > That nama and rupa arise is not a choice. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Is is said that for an arahant who has passed on, including the > Buddha, no longer does nama or rupa arise. That is part and parcel of attaining > nibbana. Did the Bodhisatta make no choices that led to his complete and final > awakening, and the ending of (conditioned) experience? (That is to say: Did not > appropriate choices get made within the mindstream that we identify with the > Bodhisatta?) Phil: I don't think this needs to be a problem. Choices arise, of course. They have to or we couldn't function in the world. But the point is that there is no chooser. The choices arise due to conditions. This is not cause for despair. Conditions can be cultivated. When we listen to Dhamma, read Dhamma, discuss Dhamma, meditate (perhaps, but I think there must be too much lobha from what I can see now and from my experience) and do other things in life with wholesome motivation, conditions are cultivated for more kusala. There is no need to feel despair (not that you are) but there is need to understand the need for patience. Howard, you helped me a lot with your questions about citta - you said you didn't like the idea of citta having an object of consciousness because it made it seem like citta was a little agent, a little self. So, in the same line, how can you put such value on this idea of "choices" - it sounds like you are praising free will - when there is no chooser? It seems to me from the anatta sutta that this is clearly the case - there is no self that can choose to have kusala. We have to leave things to conditions. There is no chooser, so no choice. But due to conditions we have the *apparent* choices that fill our daily life. And wholesome conditions can be cultivated - there is no need to feel this is a nihilistic, hopeless doctrine. At every moment in daily life there is the possibility of wholesome conditions giving rise to kusala. It is beautiful and thrilling. Sometimes it moves me to tears. The Buddha, and only the Buddha, teaches this beautiful doctrine of anatta. I think understanding this beautiful doctrine in even a shallow way is the first step to detachment. Beginners words. I often think of the scene in the movie Good Will Hunting in which the psychiatrist hugs the troubled young man and again and again says "it is not your fault, it is not your fault." If it was the Buddha, he would add, "because there is no you." We have no reason to hold on to our pain, our fear, our guilt, but we can cultivate the conditions for more loving-kindness, more patience, more compassion and so on. This moment is when we can begin. I think it's very beautiful. And miraculous. I haven't really addressed your questions fully, Howard, and what I have written is very shallow - nothing you haven't heard before. Sorry, but I think I will stop there. Please have the last word, if you'd like. I do look forward to discussing more with you in a few months, but not now. I just don't feel like it these days for some reason or other. Phil 50867 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:22am Subject: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... philofillet Hi again A correction: >>>> manifestations - I'm unclear on the difference between these, and that's fine. But virya is virya, metta is metta, hiri is hiri, and can be known directly (though not yet) in a way that is beyond words. I shouldn't say "not yet." Who knows? Phil 50869 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: An overdose for Htoo 6? buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Htoo), Sarah: With regard to your p.s about James and textual passages, yes, he'd like you to quote more and me to quote less:). James: No, most definitely not! You have misunderstood. I love your quotes and I want you to quote more (since I don't have the texts that you do- growing up in America and not having as much time to collect them through various sources.) My issue with you, Sarah, is that you often don't provide your personal commentary to the quotes you provide. After all, I am conversing with you, not with a quote. I want to know what you think. Throwing quotes at me (as I see it) is unproductive to the discussion. Please try to add your personal comments. Sarah: Your p.s to him that he couldn't follow contained all good material. Perhaps we can try to simplify it as he suggests. James: Yes, I am sure that Htoo wrote very good material to me and I had made an effort to understand it. It really made me feel bad that I didn't understand because I know that he went to some effort to explain to me his position. And I wanted to continue the conversation (this happens to me all the time in Egypt). However, at no time Sarah did I suggest to him that he try to simplify his message to me. You misrepresent my message to him. Htoo is Htoo and I don't expect him to communicate in a way which I can understand readily. The fact that others understand makes me happy indeed. Sarah: When I return, James, I'd be happy to discuss that eightfold path factor you think we miss out on without using any Pali terms or textual references if you like:). James: Sure, that would be great. I will look forward to your explanation. Good luck in India! May your trip be productive and blessed!!! Metta, James 50870 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:39am Subject: Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? robmoult Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear RobM, > I find it hard to understand what you wrote in the post. Perhaps you > can explain these examples from the Dhammapada: > http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm > IX (11) The Story of Three Groups of Persons > > While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse > (127) of this book, with reference to questions raised by three > groups of bhikkhus concerning three extraordinary incidents. > > The first group: A group of bhikkhus were on their way to pay homage > to the Buddha and they stopped at a village on the way. Some people > were cooking alms-food for those bhikkhus when one of the houses > caught fire and a ring of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, > a crow came flying, got caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead > in the central part of the village. The bhikkhus seeing the dead > crow observed that only the Buddha would be able to explain for what > evil deed this crow had to die in this manner. After taking alms- > food they continued on their journey to pay homage to the Buddha, > and also to ask about the unfortunate crow. > > The second group: Another group of bhikkhus wore travelling in a > boat; they too wore on their way to pay homage to the Buddha. When > they were in the middle of the ocean the boat could not be moved. > So, lots were drawn to find out who the unlucky one was; three times > the lot fell on the wife of the skipper. Then the skipper said > sorrowfully, "Many people should not die on account of this unlucky > woman; tie a pot of sand to her neck and threw her into the water so > that I would not see her." The woman was thrown into the sea as > instructed by the skipper and the ship could move on. On arrival at > their destination. the bhikkhus disembarked and continued on their > way to the Buddha. They also intended to ask the Buddha due to what > evil kamma the unfortunate woman was thrown overboard. > > The third group: A group of seven bhikkhus were also on their way to > pay homage to the Buddha. On the way, they enquired at a monastery > whether there was any suitable place for them to take shelter for > the night in the neighbourhood. They were directed to a cave, and > there they spent the night; but in the middle of the night, a large > boulder slipped off from above and effectively closed the entrance. > In the morning, the bhikkhus from the nearby monastery coming to the > cave saw what had happened and they went to bring people from seven > villages. With the help of these people they tried to move the > boulder, but it was of no avail. Thus, the seven bhikkhus were > trapped in the cave without food or water for seven days. On the > seventh day, the boulder moved miraculously by itself, and the > bhikkhus came out and continued their way to the Buddha. They also > intended to ask the Buddha due to what previous evil deed they were > thus shut up for seven days in a cave. > > The three groups of travellers met on the way and together they went > to the Buddha. Each group related to the Buddha what they had seen > or experienced on their way and the Buddha answered their questions. > > The Buddha answer to the first group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a > farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. > It could not be coaxed to do any work; it would lie down chewing the > cud or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on > account of this lazy, stubborn animal; so in anger he tied a straw > rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. > On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long > time in niraya. and in serving out the remaining part of his > punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven > existences." > > The Buddha's answer to the second group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a > woman who had a pet dog. She used to take the dog along with her > wherever she went and young boys of the city poked fun at her. She > was very angry and felt so ashamed that she planned to kill the dog. > She filled a pot with sand, tied it round the neck of the dog and > threw it into the water; and the dog was drowned. On account of this > evil deed that woman had suffered for a long time in niraya and in > serving the remaining part of her punishment, she had been thrown > into the water to drown in the last one hundred existences." > > The Buddha's answer to the third group: "Bhikkhus, once, seven > cowherds saw an iguana going into a mound and they dosed all the > seven outlets of the mound with twigs and branches of trees. After > closing the outlets they went away, completely forgetting the iguana > that was trapped in the mound. Only after seven days, they > remembered what they had done and hurriedly returned to the scene of > their mischief and let out the iguana. On account of this evil deed, > those seven had been imprisoned together for seven days without any > food, in the last fourteen existences." > > Then, a bhikkhu remarked, "O indeed! There is no escape from evil > consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, > or in the ocean, or in a cave." To him, the Buddha said, "Yes, > Bhikkhu! You are right; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is > no place which is beyond the reach of evil consequences." > > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in > the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where > one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed."" > Robertk > ===== As usual, you raise an excellent point! According to the Abhidhamma, kamma: - Cannot cause rings of fire - Cannot influence the length of straw - Cannot move large boulders - Cannot cause tsunamis - Cannot cause airplanes to hit the World Trade Centre According to the Abhidhamma, kamma can only influence a limited number of mental states (bhavanga, sense-consciousness, receiving, investigating). According to the Abhidhamma, there is a limited range of rupas which are created by kamma (eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-sensitivity as well as life faculty, heart-base, masculinity and femininity). So how do we bridge the gap between the conventional language used in the Dhammapada (and elsewhere in the Suttas) and the technical analysis found in the Abhidhamma? Here is my answer from an Abhidhamma perspective (my understanding, and I welcome corrections). When we perform an act, particularly a weighty act such as killing, we create kamma. However, at the same time, we also create an "accumulation". An accumulation is a conditioning state for natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). Specifically, the conditioning states for natural decisive support condition are: - All strong past cittas - All strong past cetasikas (accompanying the cittas) - All strong past rupas - Some strong past concepts Pretty broad list, eh? The conditioned states for natural decisive support condition are: - Any subsequent citta (all 89 are included) - Associated cetasikas with the citta (all 52 are included) An equally broad list! The important point is that kamma condition does not influence the javana cittas (that which drives us around) but natural decisive support condition can and does drive those javana cittas. I have heard that there is a Sutta (can't find it though), where the Buddha mentions that Yasodhara was his wife in 50 previous existences. What drew them together for 50 existences? Not kamma... it was accumulations. Why was the crow drawn to situations where he could be burned for seven existences? It was natural decisive support condition which guided the crow's javana cittas, including those cittas which cause body intimation to arise (i.e. directed where the crow flew). Note that postures and intimation do not arise from vipaka cittas (see BB's CMA p249). Bodily movement is driven by kamma-producing cittas (and mind-door adverting). These cittas are not impacted by kamma condition but they are impacted by natural decisive support condition. The way that I see it, rebirth is primarily driven by kamma whereas accumulations play the major role in guiding our activities during existence. Rob K, perhaps you can help me. I have read many Suttas where the Buddha talked about kamma influencing a rebirth. I have not found a sutta where the Buddha specifically mentions kamma influencing events during existence. In the example above, the Buddha talked about past events influencing events in the current existence but He does not appear to explicitly use the word "kamma". I can therefore interpret what the Buddha is referring to as past events can influence current events through natural decisive support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 50871 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi Mike (Dan & all). The recent discussion on the upakilesas reminded me of yr qu here: --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah (and Dan), > > Interesting--so you take this to refer to corruptions of insight? > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sarah abbott" > > S: I understood it (rightly or wrongly) to refer to that particular > kind > > of self-overestimation only (with regards to the insight attained). > > Ignorant worldlings who have not considered the teachings or developed > any > > insight would have no reason for having any idea that self-view and > other > > wrong views had been eradicated. > > > > Of course there can be many other kinds of unwholesome > overestimation... .... S: Yes, I think so. In the commentary note to the Sallekha Sutta, it mentions that it 'refers to one who at the beginning of his insight-meditation (vipassanaa-bhaavanaa) and has not yet attained to Stream-entry.' when the fetter of personality-belief is finally eliminated. The beginner's insight-practice [S: i.e tender insight] extends from the 'discernment of mentality and corporeality' (naamaruupapariccheda) up to the 'knowledge of rise and fall' (udayabbaya-~naa.na)...' In the Vism, ch XX under 'Imperfections of Insight' the same is stressed. Back to the sutta and commentary, it refers to wrong views which have become active (samuudacaranti) being seen with right wisdom (sdammappa~n`naaya)- comy"with insight-wisdom, ending with the knowledge pertaining to the path of Stream-Entry." S: If the wrong views don't arise and are not seen for what they are, they can never be eradicated. Later, (maybe relevant to other threads) on jhanas and how these are not any kind of sallekha (effacement) in the Buddha's discipline, rather an 'abiding in ease here and now'. The 8 jhanas are given and the commentary states 'that these meditative attainments "are in common with the ascetics outside the Buddha's Dispensation".' Comy:' "The overrater's meditative absorption is neither 'effacement' nor is it the 'path of practice for effacement' (sallekha-pa.tipadaa). And why not? Because that jhaana is not used by him as a basis for insight; that is, after rising from jhaana he does not scrutinise the (physical and mental) formations" (see Vism ch XV111,3). His jhaana produces only one-pointedness of mind, and is, as our texts says, an 'abiding in ease here and now'.' Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, hope you're having a good trip and see this on return! ============= 50872 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Assured & Ascertained Awakening bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Forward and Reverse Causality of the Process of Being Existent: So have I heard: After 7 days of non-stop sitting meditation in the bliss of Awakening, The Buddha in the last watch of the night directed his unified attention to dependent co-arising in both forward & reverse order in this very way: When this exists, then that exists too... When this arises, that arises too... When this do not exist, then neither do that exist... When this ceases, that ceases too... When ignorance arises, mental construction also appears.. When mental construction arises, consciousness also comes to be.. When consciousness arises, additionally name-&-form come in to being.. When name-&-form arises, then the six senses emerge.. When the six senses arise, then contact is the consequence.. When contact arises, then feeling is assigned too.. When feeling arises, then this craving surely follows.. When craving arises, then clinging too becomes apparent.. When clinging arises, then the process of becoming is initiated too.. When becoming arises, then rebirth inevitably also manifests.. When birth arises, aging & death, sorrow, distress, pain, grief and despair also arises. This verily is the origin, the causing, the arising of this entire mass of Suffering... Consequently, when this very same ignorance is utterly uprooted & vanished, then mental construction is tranquilized, all stilled, and it ceases & vanishes.. When mental construction ceases, then consciousness itself fade away.. When consciousness ceases, additionally name-&-form terminate too.. When name-&-form ceases, then the six senses come to an end too.. When the six senses cease, then contact close down as well.. When contact ceases, then feeling fade out too.. When feeling ceases, then craving also evaporate.. When craving ceases, then clinging is relinquished too.. When clinging ceases, then becoming inherently comes to an end.. When becoming ceases, then this process of endless rebirth is exhausted too.. When birth ceases, aging, death, sorrow, distress, pain, & depression also stops. This verily is the cessation, the irreversible End of this whole mass of Suffering... Then, he, the Blessed One, on recognizing the profundity of that sequence, exclaimed: When the appearance of phenomena becomes clearly manifest to this very Noble Friend through rapt meditation, then he is constantly scattering Maras - the Evil One's - army, exactly as the sun continuously disperses all darkness, when lighting up the bright sky... Source: The Udana: Inspired utterances by the Buddha: I  3 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50873 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? upasaka_howard Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/1/05 5:37:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@... writes: > During the course of existence, the eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue- and > body-sensitivity cittas continue to arise. Throughout the course of > existence, these cittas are a resultant of the javana citta of the > death proximate citta process from the previous existence. So if > somebody is born blind because of their kamma, they will remain blind > throughout their life. > ===================== But of course that is not always so these days, right? (Corneal transplants, neurological surgery, etc?) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50874 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/1/05 6:21:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Howard, you helped me a lot with your questions about citta - you > said you didn't like the idea of citta having an object of > consciousness because it made it seem like citta was a little agent, > a little self. So, in the same line, how can you put such value on > this idea of "choices" - it sounds like you are praising free will - > when there is no chooser? ====================== My objection was to a mode of speaking, namely speaking of cittas as agents or what I called "little selves". There was no denial of experiencing - just a denial of experiencers. As for choices, there are processes of choosing, consisting of many moments of intention/volition, but there are no choosers. It is an unnecessary and moha-rooted activity to identify cetana as the action of a self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50875 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 Dear James, Once again I have been negligent to reply, pure laziness on my part. This passage relates how wise attention is able to arise in this life: The Paramatthadipani nama Undanatthakatha (trans. masefield p32) Enlightenment chapter: talks about such factors as hearing the true dhamma and wise attention. the note on page 168 (note 225) says: 'Svpt[Digha-tika]simply states that paying methodical attention[ayoniso manisikara] is the FRUITION of proper development of self and the fact that one has previously performed merit, whilst non-distraction the FRUITION of hearing true Dhamma and waiting on sappurisa [wise person]. The pali is "yatha yonisomanisikara karenaphalabhutena attasammapanidhipubbekatapunnatanam siddhi vutta ...evam avikkhepena phalabhutena karanbhutanam saddhammasavanasapurrisupassayanama siddhi dassetabba" I am showing this thread to ROBM and will try to add some more once I read your reply. Robertk > Hi Robert K., > > James: Thank you for this very nice answer. So, it does seem that > we are in agreement as to the nature of accumulations. I like your > example of smoking, it is very apropos, but I question the other > example you give: > > Robert K: "When I get angry and say something disagreeable I make > kamma that will bring a result in the future. But I also strengthen > (accumulate) dosa (aversion). > > James: I don't think it is dosa which accumulates in this situation, > it is the tendency (or "habit") to use harsh speech. > > Robert K: Would like details about these conditions and how kamma > and accumlations relate? > > James: That would be fine as long as you use minimal Pali or define > the Pali you use. I don't know much Pali. I would also like for > you to explain further how wisdom could accumulate as a "habit". > Wisdom, from my viewpoint, isn't a habit. I want us to stay on > track with the original topic. > > Metta, > James 50876 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? rjkjp1 Dear Robm, I think it is not so straightforward as you paint it. Kamma paccaya is itself a strong condition (but it is true it needs other conditions to support it). Venerable Narada awrites in Guide to Conditional relations: "Although an asynchronous faultless or faulty volition arises for one thought moment and then ceases, this is not the end of it. For a special force is left behind in the mind's succesive continuity so that at some time in the future teh appropriate result of that volition will be produced when the proper conditions are satisfied. It is due to the presence of this force that results appear. However this force does not manifest itself like the mind with its nascent, staic and cessant phases but is present like the the latenet tendencies. And just as teh latter are not concepts so alos this special force of asynchronous kamma condition is not a concept. It is a special force of the ultimate realities.""endquote Could you also help on this thread about accumulations with James and myself:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50875 Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > According to the Abhidhamma, kamma: > - Cannot cause rings of fire > - Cannot influence the length of straw > - Cannot move large boulders > - Cannot cause tsunamis > - Cannot cause airplanes to hit the World Trade Centre > > According to the Abhidhamma, kamma can only influence a limited > number of mental states (bhavanga, sense-consciousness, receiving, > investigating). > > According to the Abhidhamma, there is a limited range of rupas which > are created by kamma (eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-sensitivity as > well as life faculty, heart-base, masculinity and femininity). > > So how do we bridge the gap between the conventional language used in > the Dhammapada (and elsewhere in the Suttas) and the technical > analysis found in the Abhidhamma? > > Here is my answer from an Abhidhamma perspective (my understanding, > and I welcome corrections). > > When we perform an act, particularly a weighty act such as killing, > we create kamma. However, at the same time, we also create > an "accumulation". > > An accumulation is a conditioning state for natural decisive support > condition (pakatupanissaya). Specifically, the conditioning states > for natural decisive support condition are: > - All strong past cittas > - All strong past cetasikas (accompanying the cittas) > - All strong past rupas > - Some strong past concepts > > Pretty broad list, eh? > > The conditioned states for natural decisive support condition are: > - Any subsequent citta (all 89 are included) > - Associated cetasikas with the citta (all 52 are included) > > An equally broad list! > > The important point is that kamma condition does not influence the > javana cittas (that which drives us around) but natural decisive > support condition can and does drive those javana cittas. > > I have heard that there is a Sutta (can't find it though), where the > Buddha mentions that Yasodhara was his wife in 50 previous > existences. What drew them together for 50 existences? Not kamma... > it was accumulations. Why was the crow drawn to situations where he > could be burned for seven existences? It was natural decisive support > condition which guided the crow's javana cittas, including those > cittas which cause body intimation to arise (i.e. directed where the > crow flew). Note that postures and intimation do not arise from > vipaka cittas (see BB's CMA p249). > > Bodily movement is driven by kamma-producing cittas (and mind-door > adverting). These cittas are not impacted by kamma condition but they > are impacted by natural decisive support condition. > > The way that I see it, rebirth is primarily driven by kamma whereas > accumulations play the major role in guiding our activities during > existence. > > Rob K, perhaps you can help me. I have read many Suttas where the > Buddha talked about kamma influencing a rebirth. I have not found a > sutta where the Buddha specifically mentions kamma influencing events > during existence. In the example above, the Buddha talked about past > events influencing events in the current existence but He does not > appear to explicitly use the word "kamma". I can therefore interpret > what the Buddha is referring to as past events can influence current > events through natural decisive support condition. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 50877 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi RobM > > ------------------------------- > <. . .> > R: > My point is that when I hear or read an idea, I tend to place it > according to how close it is to the core. > > I am sure that this post is going to generate a lot of feedback. I am > bracing myself :-) > ---------------------------------- > > I would hate to take advantage of your troubled state of mind. :-) > Would this be a good time to ask about textual references to formal > vipassana meditation? I am referring to any instructions you might > know of that tell us to sit on a cushion, stop the monkey mind from > flitting from thought to thought, and concentrate on physical and > mental sensations. Where do those instructions appear and how close > to the core should we place them? > > Ken H > PS: Sorry for any apparent insincerity. :-) ===== I believe that you question is quite sincere. Here is my viewpoint. Firstly, it is important to put the Suttas into context of the intended audience. With this in mind, let's talk about the daily routine of monks during the time of the Buddha. What do you think that these guys did all day? They sat under trees doing what you might call "formal meditation". The same was true for ascetics of other sects. So in the Satipatthana Sutta, when the Buddha says, "...having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, sits down with his legs crossed, keeps his body erect and his mindfulness alert..." what the Buddha is really saying is "...while going through your daily activities...". Later in the Sutta, the Buddha talks about maintaining mindfulness while going, standing, sitting or lying down. When are we not doing one of those things? Clearly, the Buddha is advocating mindfulness at all times during daily life. So what is the role of "formal meditation"? In the Culamalunkya Sutta (MN63) and again in the Simsapa Sutta (AN LVI.31), the Buddha clearly states that He limits his speech to things that are "beneficial, belonging to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." One of the recurring themes in the Suttas is attaining of jhanas. Clearly jhanas must fall under the category of "beneficial... Nibbana". Now, jhanas do not occur when you are walking to the supermarket :-). Attaining jhanas requires extended periods of deep concentration. In other words, jhanas require "formal meditation". My understanding is that jhanas are not required to gain enlightenment (i.e. dry Arahants). However, the fact that the Buddha spent so much time talking about them (even defining them as "right concentration"; a factor of the eightfold noble path) tells me that they are quite important. Since the only way to achieve jhanas is through formal meditation, this seems to indicate that "formal meditation" should be part of one's practice. Hey, it was part of the Buddha's practice (before enlightenment, the Buddha achieved all of the jhanas and started with the jhanas both at time of enlightenment and at the time of parinibbana). Formal meditation will improve one's concentration and lead to tranquillity (samadhi). Samadhi (tranquillity) and Vipassana (insight) are called the swift pair of messengers (see SN XXXV.204) which deliver Nibbana. So my interpretation of the Suttas is that you need to have a tranquil mind (samadhi) to support insight into the three characterisitics. Regular formal meditation is one way to develop a tranquil mind. All of this is at the "core"; it is in the Suttas. And because these points are not mentioned just once or twice, but repeatedly, I take them to be very close to the core of the Buddha's teaching. There are stuctured techniques to practice formal jhana meditation. These can be found in the Suttas (sorry, no references) and are later embellished in the Vimuttimagga (a precursor to Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga) and the Visuddhimagga. The Suttas do not give a lot of practical advice on how to practice formal vipassana meditation. From what I have read, the Satipatthana Sutta is as specific as it gets. From the Suttas, I believe that vipassana was not meant to be an activity limited to time on the cushion; it was meant to be the foundation of everyday life. Modern authors such as Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka have built their own versions of formal Vipassana meditation. The objectives of these techniques are aligned with the Satipatthana Sutta (not that difficult as the Satipatthana Sutta is very vague on technique). So, do I believe that there is value in pursuing a technique laid out by Mahasi Sayadaw or Goenka? Absolutely! Firstly, the objectives are aligned with the Suttas. Secondly, though the objective is to be mindful 24/7, I am willing to take a time on a cushion "peeling the onion" looking deeper and deeper into whatever presents itself. I see this "peeling the onion" to be progress toward the ultimate goal of continuous mindfulness. This "peeling the onion" is gaining a perspective (right view) whereas right thought uses this right view as a foundation. Metta, Rob M :-) 50878 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 Hi Nina, Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate it. BB's interpretation of Upanisa sutta is very intersting -- definitely worth taking a closer look at. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Dan and Tep, > I find this a very good summary of important points, Dan. I was not able to > follow all discussions on the list. > In the Transcendental Dependent Arising, Upanisa sutta, Transl by > B.B.,(Wheel277/278) it is stated that concentration is the supporting > condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are. The > term yathaabhuuta-ñaa.nadassana is the development of insight, as explained > by B.B. > Nina. > op 30-09-2005 16:01 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > > > First you inspired me to revisit MN 117, which I find one of the most > > valuable suttas of all because it describes so neatly the intricacy > > of the relationship between right view, right effort, and right > > mindfulness (and right view, right effort, and the other samma's), 50879 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I upasaka_howard Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/1/05 9:20:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@... writes: > Subj: [dsg] Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I > Date: 10/1/05 9:20:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: rob.moult@... > Reply-to: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent from the Internet > > ======================== My opinion: Sadhu x 3 ! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 50880 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? robmoult Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Robm, > > I think it is not so straightforward as you paint it. Kamma paccaya > is itself a strong condition (but it is true it needs other > conditions to support it). > Venerable Narada awrites in Guide to Conditional relations: > "Although an asynchronous faultless or faulty volition arises for > one thought moment and then ceases, this is not the end of it. For a > special force is left behind in the mind's succesive continuity so > that at some time in the future teh appropriate result of that > volition will be produced when the proper conditions are satisfied. > It is due to the presence of this force that results appear. However > this force does not manifest itself like the mind with its nascent, > staic and cessant phases but is present like the the latenet > tendencies. And just as teh latter are not concepts so alos this > special force of asynchronous kamma condition is not a concept. It > is a special force of the ultimate realities.""endquote ===== I agree 100%; production of results from kamma condition and the production of results from latent tendencies (aka accumulations) depends on many other conditions. ===== > Could you also help on this thread about accumulations with James > and > myself:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50875 > Robertk ===== I will try to help. Metta, Rob M :-) 50881 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I nidive Hi Rob M, I really like this post of yours. It's lovely! > Firstly, it is important to put the Suttas into context of the > intended audience. With this in mind, let's talk about the daily > routine of monks during the time of the Buddha. What do you think > that these guys did all day? They sat under trees doing what you > might call "formal meditation". The same was true for ascetics of > other sects. > So in the Satipatthana Sutta, when the Buddha says, "...having gone > to the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty place, sits down > with his legs crossed, keeps his body erect and his mindfulness > alert..." what the Buddha is really saying is "...while going > through your daily activities...". A very refreshing viewpoint! > Later in the Sutta, the Buddha talks about maintaining mindfulness > while going, standing, sitting or lying down. > When are we not doing one of those things? Clearly, the Buddha is > advocating mindfulness at all times during daily life. Very true! > One of the recurring themes in the Suttas is attaining of jhanas. > Clearly jhanas must fall under the category of "beneficial... > Nibbana". Now, jhanas do not occur when you are walking to the > supermarket :-). Attaining jhanas requires extended periods of deep > concentration. In other words, jhanas require "formal meditation". > My understanding is that jhanas are not required to gain > enlightenment (i.e. dry Arahants). However, the fact that the > Buddha spent so much time talking about them (even defining them > as "right concentration"; a factor of the eightfold noble path) > tells me that they are quite important. Since the only way to > achieve jhanas is through formal meditation, this seems to indicate > that "formal meditation" should be part of one's practice. Hey, it > was part of the Buddha's practice (before enlightenment, the Buddha > achieved all of the jhanas and started with the jhanas both at time > of enlightenment and at the time of parinibbana). I am of the opinion that jhanas are required for the path of non- return. Anagamis have perfect concentration and jhanas are the epitome of perfect concentration in the suttas. > Formal meditation will improve one's concentration and lead to > tranquillity (samadhi). Samadhi (tranquillity) and Vipassana > (insight) are called the swift pair of messengers (see SN XXXV.204) > which deliver Nibbana. Great! > So my interpretation of the Suttas is that you need to have a > tranquil mind (samadhi) to support insight into the three > characterisitics. Regular formal meditation is one way to develop a > tranquil mind. Definitely! > All of this is at the "core"; it is in the Suttas. And because these > points are not mentioned just once or twice, but repeatedly, I take > them to be very close to the core of the Buddha's teaching. Close indeed! > Secondly, though the objective is to be mindful 24/7, I am willing > to take a time on a cushion "peeling the onion" looking deeper and > deeper into whatever presents itself. I see > this "peeling the onion" to be progress toward the ultimate goal of > continuous mindfulness. This "peeling the onion" is gaining a > perspective (right view) whereas right thought uses this right view > as a foundation. May you progress well along the path! Regards, Swee Boon 50882 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 7:06am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi James (and Rob K); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > Once again I have been negligent to reply, pure laziness on my part. > This passage relates how wise attention is able to arise in this > life: > The Paramatthadipani nama Undanatthakatha (trans. masefield p32) > Enlightenment chapter: > talks about such factors as hearing the true dhamma and wise > attention. > the note on page 168 (note 225) says: > 'Svpt[Digha-tika]simply states that paying methodical > attention[ayoniso manisikara] is the FRUITION of proper > development of self and the fact that one has previously > performed merit, whilst non-distraction the FRUITION of hearing > true Dhamma and waiting on sappurisa [wise person]. > The pali is "yatha yonisomanisikara karenaphalabhutena > attasammapanidhipubbekatapunnatanam siddhi vutta ...evam > avikkhepena phalabhutena karanbhutanam > saddhammasavanasapurrisupassayanama siddhi dassetabba" > > I am showing this thread to ROBM and will try to add some more once > I read your reply. > Robertk > > > > Hi Robert K., > > > > James: Thank you for this very nice answer. So, it does seem that > > we are in agreement as to the nature of accumulations. I like > your > > example of smoking, it is very apropos, but I question the other > > example you give: > > > > Robert K: "When I get angry and say something disagreeable I make > > kamma that will bring a result in the future. But I also > strengthen > > (accumulate) dosa (aversion). > > > > James: I don't think it is dosa which accumulates in this > situation, > > it is the tendency (or "habit") to use harsh speech. > > > > Robert K: Would like details about these conditions and how kamma > > and accumlations relate? > > > > James: That would be fine as long as you use minimal Pali or > define > > the Pali you use. I don't know much Pali. I would also like for > > you to explain further how wisdom could accumulate as a "habit". > > Wisdom, from my viewpoint, isn't a habit. I want us to stay on > > track with the original topic. > > > > Metta, > > James ===== Let me compare kamma and accumulations. - the seed of kamma is an active mental state (javana); a mental state that has roots which include greed, aversion, delusion, non- greed, non-aversion or wisdom (various combinations are possible) - the seed of accumulations is a strong past mental state, a strong past object (i.e. a sound, smell, taste, etc.) and some strong past concepts - the effect of kamma is on the passive mental states of the thought process (the mental states that arise before the active ones); some rupa is also kamma-effect but I don't to go into those details - the effect of accumulations is on all mental states (including active and passive) So now let's talk about what conditions the arising of wisdom. Wisdom only arises in the active mental states. Important point -> Wisdom creates new (good) kamma but wisdom is not the result of past kamma. What is it that determines the type of active mental state which arises in a thought process? It ain't kamma! It is accumulations! The thought process has two parts; the passive part (what happens to us) comes first and the active part (our reaction) comes second. When something happens to us, there are four ways that the mind might react: - Likes what happens: leads to greed-rooted active mental states - Dislikes what happens: leads to aversion-rooted active mental states - Ignores what happens: leads to delusion-rooted active mental states - Sees what happes as it truly is - with wise attention: leads to wholesome active mental states; these wholesome mental states may or may not include wisdom (panna) So what "decides" which of the four paths are to be taken during the thought process? Will it be door #1 (likes), door #2 (dislikes), door #3 (ignores) or will it be door #4 (sees it as it truly is - with wise attention)? The answer.... you guessed it! Accumulations! So when I am angry, two things happen. First, I create some bad kamma but secondly, I reinforce a habit of getting angry at whatever triggered the anger. The next time that I am facing a similar situation, my habit will influence the direction of my thought process so that anger will arise again. Hope that my butting in part way through your discussion is helpful. Metta, Rob M :-) 50883 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satori? onco111 Dear Howard, I'm not ready to make any conclusions about your experiences or understanding (and I hope I never get to the point where I presume to be ready), so my questions are about the Dhamma in general, not so much about *you*. Comments interpersed... > > However, > > without the shattering of the illusion of continuity and the > > perception of the breakup of the stream of experience, can it be with > > anything beyond a soft, conceptual understanding of anatta? > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I speak only for my own experience. I agree in one respect and > disagree in another. > The disagreement first: All sense of personal self/identity was > entirely gone - hence it was not just a "conceptual" experience, and since that time > I have had an experience-based incontrovertible disbelief in a personal > self, and hence also in any things known by a self. --> Dan: The reason I ask the question is that my understanding is that the tilakkhana are akin to one another (as applied to sankhata dhamma), and that in later reflection about the perception of one, it becomes clear that the others were characteristics as well, but the perception of the one was predominent. For example, suppose the meditator observes a flickering of consciousness, i.e. objects arise and fall so rapidly that the mind seems to be flickering -- no sense of continuity at all. This same "phenonomenon" would be perceived as anicca if the impression is "dhammas arise and pass away rapidly", it would be perceived as anatta if the impression is "dhammas have no handle to grasp", or it would be perceived as dukkha if the impression is "dhammas are not worth grasping at". Unless all three characteristics were evident (at least in retrospect), I'd be skeptical that it was more than conceptual insight, regardless of how convincing it may have seemed. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > My experience was more terrifying than "cool"! ;-) > ---------------------------------------- What specifically was terrifying? Metta, Dan 50884 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M (James & RobertK), Interesting post on kamma and accumulations! > Let me compare kamma and accumulations. > - the seed of kamma is an active mental state (javana); a mental > state that has roots which include greed, aversion, delusion, non- > greed, non-aversion or wisdom (various combinations are possible) > - the seed of accumulations is a strong past mental state, a strong > past object (i.e. a sound, smell, taste, etc.) and some strong past > concepts > - the effect of kamma is on the passive mental states of the thought > process (the mental states that arise before the active ones); some > rupa is also kamma-effect but I don't to go into those details > - the effect of accumulations is on all mental states (including > active and passive) > Wisdom only arises in the active mental states. > Important point -> Wisdom creates new (good) kamma but wisdom is > not the result of past kamma. > What is it that determines the type of active mental state which > arises in a thought process? It ain't kamma! It is accumulations! Since wisdom is not the result of past kamma, then if RobertK wants to accumulate wisdom for future lives, then he must do something such that wisdom will be a strong present mental state in this life. What then must RobertK do in order that wisdom will be a strong present mental state in this life? How does one define "strong"? Regards, Swee Boon 50885 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 7:48am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- Dan's Right view Is Right. onco111 Hi Tep, I glad to hear you sometimes appreciate the need to consult the commentaries. They really are a rich source of good suggestions for interpreting the texts. Comments interspersed... > Your remarks are numbered and put in quotations. By the way, please > don't be annoyed by my blunt answers that might sound as if I were an > expert who knew everything : an arahant? :-)). I don't mind blunt answers a bit. My arahant comment in a previous post was in response to your apparent claim in one clumsy statement to be beyond the web of views. I don't *really* think you think you are an arahant or try to portray yourself as one. > 1) "I found the discussion helpful. You prompted me to look again at > several important suttas, their commentaries, and the original Pali -- all > of which I found helpful." > > Tep: You may not believe me that I do (carefully) read sutta > commentaries in addition to the suttas themselves. Sometimes, I find > some sutta translations very confusing. Sometimes, I find some sutta > commentaries very confusing. Luckily, most of the time I have found the > Pali text quite clear. "It is wonderful and marvellous, venerable sir, how this dependent arising is so deep and appears so deep, yet to myself it seems as clear as clear can be." "Do not say so, Ananda! Do not say so, Ananda! This dependent arising is deep and it appears deep." (Mahanidana sutta) Generally speaking, often what appears to be very clear in the suttas is really quite deep, with many intricacies and facets that cannot be readily grasped. Much, much study and reflection and contemplation is required. <,snip> > Tep: Sounds good to me! This is my understanding : Anupassana > (contemplation) of the 4 Noble Truths develops right view, which is the > knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble Truths. More development through > anupassana of the Noble Truths leads to the supramundane right view > that is the true seeing & knowing (penetration) of dukkha, dukkha > samudaya, dukkha nirodha, and the atthangika-magga. My understanding is that the "contemplation" of the 4NT and the knowledge of them that is referred to in the suttas is itself the supramundane right view, not something that leads to it -- yathabhuta pajanati. > 5) "The commentary vividly and unambiguously suggests an alternate > reading of Right View as more of a "Right Viewing of realities > (sankare)" than a "Right opinions." This reading would not be apparent > to a reader in the modern era, but to the bhikkhus of Buddha's age, it > would have been natural and obvious." > > Tep: I am not a bhikkhu of the Buddha's age, but I have no trouble > understanding right view as the knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble > Truths simply by careful readings (several times) of MN 117, MN 2, and > DN 9. Saying so does not mean that I think of myself highly; I only want > to say that suttas are not that difficult to understand, when you have > chanda and viriya to study them with unbroken attention and > discernment. But mundane right view is also discussed, as in MN 117: "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world...' This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment." This statement can easily be mis-read as referring to a "Right Opinion" or "Right Conceptualization" of kamma, etc., but the commentary points out that the correct interpretation is that these statements are more along the lines of descriptions of how a right view of dhammas might be manifested. > Tep: That is a pretty good overview, Dan. Have you ever wondered > why DN 22 does not state the case of supramundane right view (whose > object, I presume, is Nibbana)? Interesting question. My understanding is that DN 22 *does* discuss supramundane right view, which is the penetration of the 4NT. > 7) "I have the sense that yathabhuta pajanati is the right view that > arises only with vipassana, while right view can arise with satipatthana > in general. However, this is just an inkling." > > Tep: That is close to what I think. My understanding tells me that right > view is the knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble Truths, it is not > yet 'yathabhuta pajanati'. My reply in 8) below explains that > anupassana of the 4 Noble Truths leads to yathabhutam pajanati of > these truths. The "knowledge" must be yathabhuta pajanati (and not a conceptual understanding) because that knowledge is said to be liberating knowledge. Before there can be such supramundane, liberating Right View, there must be substantial and profound and extended development of the more immediately relevant mundane right view, the object of which is not 4NT. > Tep: There is something of importance in MN 2, Dan. Yoniso- > manasikara or wise attention of the 4 Noble Truths can result in > abandonment of the three fetters. Here yoniso-manasikara of a > dhamma is equivalent to "discernment" (anupassana) of that dhamma. > Therefore, the dhammanupassana of the 4 Noble Truths in DN 22 is > the same as yoniso-manasikara of the ariya-sacca as given in MN 2. Yes, but that "wise attention" is not at all the same as "thinking about" the 4NT. It is a highly developed pañña that doesn't arise just from reading. > Tep: This observation you have made is pretty good. Theoretical > considerations, definitions, or concepts of the 4 Noble Truths (including > the 8 path factors) are not helpful for penetration (pativedha) -- only > anupassana of the 4 Noble Truths is truly helpful for developing insight > knowledge and penetration that leads to the Stream-entry [according > to MN 2]. Prior to stream entry, the "knowledge" of the 4NT is strictly conceptual (theoretical, if you will) and is not -ñana as used in the suttas. If so, would it make any difference in your practice? Metta, Dan 50886 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Swee Boon (James & Rob K), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M (James & RobertK), > > Interesting post on kamma and accumulations! > > > Let me compare kamma and accumulations. > > - the seed of kamma is an active mental state (javana); a mental > > state that has roots which include greed, aversion, delusion, non- > > greed, non-aversion or wisdom (various combinations are possible) > > - the seed of accumulations is a strong past mental state, a strong > > past object (i.e. a sound, smell, taste, etc.) and some strong past > > concepts > > - the effect of kamma is on the passive mental states of the thought > > process (the mental states that arise before the active ones); some > > rupa is also kamma-effect but I don't to go into those details > > - the effect of accumulations is on all mental states (including > > active and passive) > > > Wisdom only arises in the active mental states. > > Important point -> Wisdom creates new (good) kamma but wisdom is > > not the result of past kamma. > > What is it that determines the type of active mental state which > > arises in a thought process? It ain't kamma! It is accumulations! > > Since wisdom is not the result of past kamma, then if RobertK wants to > accumulate wisdom for future lives, then he must do something such > that wisdom will be a strong present mental state in this life. > > What then must RobertK do in order that wisdom will be a strong > present mental state in this life? ===== In DN33, we find 'three grounds based on merit: that of giving (dana), of morality (sila), of meditation (bhavana; could also be translated as mental development)'. These are the punna-kiriya-vatthu (bases of meritorious deeds). In the Atthasalani, this list is expanded into ten items. Bhavana is expanded into four aspects: - Meditation - Hearing the dhamma - Teaching the dhamma - Straightening out one's view These are the things that we must do to develop the accumulations to increase the odds that panna will arise in future mental states. ===== > > How does one define "strong"? > ===== Good question. Here is my definition (I have not been able to find a formal definition in the commentary to the Patthana, but it probably exists). A concept, mental state or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) How do we use this information? Knowing that something frequently encountered becomes "strong", we can understand how metta meditation in the morning helps us for the entire day. We can also understand how a two month course in vipassana caused a measurable improvement in hapiness and antibodies four months after the meditation had stopped. Knowing that repition creates strength, we can see the benefit of planning good deeds, performing good deeds mindfully, sharing good deeds with devas and reflecting on good deeds performed (I understand many Burmese have a "merit book" where they write down good deeds that they have done so that they can be read back to them on their deathbeds). Knowing that recent events can influence the current situation, I can try to develop equanimity. For example, if I have had a bad day at the office and return home to find my kid's room a mess, I might usually get angry. However, if I just got a raise and I get home and find my kid's room a mess, I might ignore it to not spoil my good mood. Both approaches are wrong. The right approach to to deal with a messy room in a consistent manner, irrespective of how well my day has gone. Consider the impact of the solemn vow made by Sumeda the Hermit. That vow, to become a future Buddha, influenced the mental states of countless Bodhisattas over many existences. Similar vows made in previous existences led Ananda, Sariputta and other disciples of the Buddha to be associated with the Bodhisatta through many existences. Alternatively, consider the monastic vows taken when entering the Sangha. Those vows steer the rest of the person's life. I hope that I have answered your questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 50887 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: Satori? onco111 Dear RobertK, I agree with you, Robert, that what most people take as vipassanupakkilesa are nothing of the kind and are just deluded states based on some experience, nothing to do with the path. However, it is not helpful (and even damaging) to prejudge an individual case as, "Most people get this wrong, so you are wrong as well." If you see an error, point it out rather than insinuate to one that others are deluded. With much appreciation, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Hal, > I suppose it goes without saying (but I say it anyway) that what most > people take to be vipassanupakilesa are nothing of the kind - they are > rather just deluded states based on some experience, nothing to do > with the path. > Robertk > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > > > Thanks for the snippet. As you say, the defilements of insight are > so > > called, not because of the meditative experience itself, but because > > of the unwholesome tendencies that arise in response to these > > experiences. The _vipassanupakkilesas_ mark the tender phase of 50888 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 8:19am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > In DN33, we find 'three grounds based on merit: that of giving > (dana), of morality (sila), of meditation (bhavana; could also be > translated as mental development)'. These are the punna-kiriya- > atthu (bases of meritorious deeds). In the Atthasalani, this list > is expanded into ten items. Bhavana is expanded into four aspects: > - Meditation > - Hearing the dhamma > - Teaching the dhamma > - Straightening out one's view > > These are the things that we must do to develop the accumulations to > increase the odds that panna will arise in future mental states. I note the phrase "increase the odds". Is there a way to calculate the odds that panna will arise in future lives? Or do we leave it to chance as in gambling? > > How does one define "strong"? > > Good question. Here is my definition (I have not been able to find a > formal definition in the commentary to the Patthana, but it probably > exists). A concept, mental state or rupa can be "strong" when: > - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) > - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment > influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) > - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong > past impression or a solemn vow) Your speculation on the definition of "strong" seems reasonable. But I suppose such definition does not appear in the suttas spoken by the Buddha, and neither did he emphasize much on accumulations as being critical for unbinding, or did he? Regards, Swee Boon 50889 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > In DN33, we find 'three grounds based on merit: that of giving > > (dana), of morality (sila), of meditation (bhavana; could also be > > translated as mental development)'. These are the punna-kiriya- > > atthu (bases of meritorious deeds). In the Atthasalani, this list > > is expanded into ten items. Bhavana is expanded into four aspects: > > - Meditation > > - Hearing the dhamma > > - Teaching the dhamma > > - Straightening out one's view > > > > These are the things that we must do to develop the accumulations to > > increase the odds that panna will arise in future mental states. > > I note the phrase "increase the odds". > > Is there a way to calculate the odds that panna will arise in future > lives? Or do we leave it to chance as in gambling? > ===== Sorry, as Rob K has recently pointed out, multiple conditions interact at any one time. Even natural decisive support works with multiple past strong conditioning states. For example, imagine a monastic who has taken vows has a bad day at the temple and encounters a pleasant scene. Will the monastic vows of equanimity influence his mental state? Will the bad day influence his mental state? Will he be attached to the pleasant scene? Impossible to say! ===== > > > > How does one define "strong"? > > > > Good question. Here is my definition (I have not been able to find a > > formal definition in the commentary to the Patthana, but it probably > > exists). A concept, mental state or rupa can be "strong" when: > > - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) > > - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment > > influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) > > - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong > > past impression or a solemn vow) > > Your speculation on the definition of "strong" seems reasonable. But I > suppose such definition does not appear in the suttas spoken by the > Buddha, and neither did he emphasize much on accumulations as being > critical for unbinding, or did he? > ===== In SN XLVI, the Buddha listed the seven factors of enlightenment (Bojjhanga): - Mindfulness - Investigation of the Law (exploration of nama-rupa made visible through mindfulness) - Energy - Rapture - Tranquillity - Concentration - Equanamity So what causes any of these to arise? Accumulations! In the Bhumija Sutta (MN126) the Buddha explains that: - If one makes aspiration and does not have proper practice, then there will be no fruit (result) - If one makes no aspiration and does not have proper practice, then there will be no fruit (result) - If one makes aspiration and has proper practice, then there will be fruit (result) - If one makes no aspiration and has proper practice, then there will be fruit (result) In other words, fruit (results) come from proper practice irrespective of aspiration. How does proper practice lead to fruit? Because proper practice develops accumulations! The path cittas (the mental states which represent the attainment of various stages of sainthood) are not kamma-results, they arise because of accumulations. Metta, Rob M :-) 50890 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > Sorry, as Rob K has recently pointed out, multiple conditions > interact at any one time. Even natural decisive support works with > multiple past strong conditioning states. For example, imagine a > monastic who has taken vows has a bad day at the temple and > encounters a pleasant scene. Will the monastic vows of equanimity > influence his mental state? Will the bad day influence his mental > state? Will he be attached to the pleasant scene? Impossible to say! Right, it is impossible to say. So why would anyone desire for accumulation of wisdom for future lives? > In SN XLVI, the Buddha listed the seven factors of enlightenment > (Bojjhanga): > - Mindfulness > - Investigation of the Law (exploration of nama-rupa made visible > through mindfulness) > - Energy > - Rapture > - Tranquillity > - Concentration > - Equanamity > > So what causes any of these to arise? Accumulations! > > In the Bhumija Sutta (MN126) the Buddha explains that: > - If one makes aspiration and does not have proper practice, then > there will be no fruit (result) > - If one makes no aspiration and does not have proper practice, then > there will be no fruit (result) > - If one makes aspiration and has proper practice, then there will be > fruit (result) > - If one makes no aspiration and has proper practice, then there will > be fruit (result) > > In other words, fruit (results) come from proper practice > irrespective of aspiration. How does proper practice lead to fruit? > Because proper practice develops accumulations! > > The path cittas (the mental states which represent the attainment of > various stages of sainthood) are not kamma-results, they arise > because of accumulations. More appropriately, path cittas arise in this present life because of accumulation of wisdom made in this present life. For worldlings, wisdom accumulation is as good as only for this present life. It is an unknown for future lives. Don't you agree? Regards, Swee Boon 50891 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 9:10am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and James) - Thank you for asking for my opinion about the "Thai way" that is quite different from the Western way. > Nina: .... but the Thai way is different, it is more round about. I am used > to the Thai way and for me it is fine. Curious to know what Tep thinks >about this. But he lived for a long time in U.S. Tep: The Thai way is not direct because it is considered to be more polite (not aggressive) that way. Besides, the roundabout way is less likely to make a serious mistake or cause someone to dislike you. Nina: You can notice that when someone asks a question, Kh. Sujin does not answer straight but starts to give an explanation of basics. People have to understand basics otherwise they may not understand what follows. Perhaps this may help to become less irritated. And we should not believe that the logical, Western way is the only way to approach problems. Tep: You're very observant. Thai teachers tend to be "back to the basics" too often, and that backtracking is frustrating when you want them to get to the point quickly. Personally, I like any logical, truthful, and direct answer that is carefully delivered by taking the individual listener into consideration. It is tough and I have failed several times already! Living a long time in the U.S. has helped me to be more direct (less beating-around-the-bush) and more logical than when I was living in Thailand. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James (and Tep), > I am closing Email Sunday night for five weeks (India), but I like to answer > you. 50892 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 9:28am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > Sorry, as Rob K has recently pointed out, multiple conditions > > interact at any one time. Even natural decisive support works with > > multiple past strong conditioning states. For example, imagine a > > monastic who has taken vows has a bad day at the temple and > > encounters a pleasant scene. Will the monastic vows of equanimity > > influence his mental state? Will the bad day influence his mental > > state? Will he be attached to the pleasant scene? Impossible to say! > > Right, it is impossible to say. So why would anyone desire for > accumulation of wisdom for future lives? > ===== Sorry, just because I can't define the exact working of accumulations (or kamma for that matter - see Inconjurables Sutta AN IV.77) doesn't mean that I should not use accumulations as a guide for my life. The Kalamas had a similar concern and the Buddha eloquently showed how a belief in the efficacy of kamma should not influence their behaviour. I use the same argument to say, whether accumulations transfer across existences or not, surely this makes no difference in the way you behave now. Bottom line is that a detailed understanding of how accumulations are impacting a specific mental state is not necessary for me to apply guidelines to my current behaviour. ===== > > > In SN XLVI, the Buddha listed the seven factors of enlightenment > > (Bojjhanga): > > - Mindfulness > > - Investigation of the Law (exploration of nama-rupa made visible > > through mindfulness) > > - Energy > > - Rapture > > - Tranquillity > > - Concentration > > - Equanamity > > > > So what causes any of these to arise? Accumulations! > > > > In the Bhumija Sutta (MN126) the Buddha explains that: > > - If one makes aspiration and does not have proper practice, then > > there will be no fruit (result) > > - If one makes no aspiration and does not have proper practice, then > > there will be no fruit (result) > > - If one makes aspiration and has proper practice, then there will > be > > fruit (result) > > - If one makes no aspiration and has proper practice, then there > will > > be fruit (result) > > > > In other words, fruit (results) come from proper practice > > irrespective of aspiration. How does proper practice lead to fruit? > > Because proper practice develops accumulations! > > > > The path cittas (the mental states which represent the attainment of > > various stages of sainthood) are not kamma-results, they arise > > because of accumulations. > > More appropriately, path cittas arise in this present life because of > accumulation of wisdom made in this present life. > > For worldlings, wisdom accumulation is as good as only for this > present life. It is an unknown for future lives. Don't you agree? > ===== Sorry, I can't find any references to support the idea that the impact of accumulations is limited to the current lifetime. Quite the reverse; Sumeda's vow lasted countless lifetimes. The Buddha married Yasodhara in multiple lifetimes. Metta, Rob M :-) 50893 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 9:46am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > Sorry, just because I can't define the exact working of > accumulations (or kamma for that matter - see Inconjurables > Sutta AN IV.77) doesn't mean that I should not use accumulations > as a guide for my life. The Kalamas had a similar concern and the > Buddha eloquently showed how a belief in the efficacy of kamma > should not influence their behaviour. Since you raise the Inconjecturables Sutta, I wonder why accumulations is not mentioned as one of those inconjecturables? -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html § 22. "These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad & experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... The results of kamma... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad & experience vexation." — AN IV.77 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Why did the Buddha miss out on accumulations, such an important topic on DSG? Doesn't that tell you something? > I use the same argument to say, whether accumulations transfer > across existences or not, surely this makes no difference in the > way you behave now. > Bottom line is that a detailed understanding of how accumulations > are impacting a specific mental state is not necessary for me to > apply guidelines to my current behaviour. You have your own beliefs which I respect. > Sorry, I can't find any references to support the idea that the > impact of accumulations is limited to the current lifetime. Quite > the reverse; Sumeda's vow lasted countless lifetimes. The Buddha > married Yasodhara in multiple lifetimes. I already said that it is an unknown. Regards, Swee Boon 50894 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 10/1/05 10:11:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > My experience was more terrifying than "cool"! ;-) > >---------------------------------------- > > What specifically was terrifying? > ===================== Absolutely nothing to hold onto - "the ground slipping out from under my feet," rather like being in the midst of the spiritual analogue of a major earthquake. (Unfortunately, my mind lacked the layer of equanimity that prior mastery of jhanas would have cultivated.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50895 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: Satori? lbidd2 Hi James, Thanks for your reply. I'm not familiar with Zen but I have no doubt that there is a level of satori that would condition the arising of path consciousness. My experience also was just a glimpse of anatta. It helped me to understand what other people with deeper experiences and understandings were talking about. If you get something out of meditation I would encourage you to keep at it even though you don't have a guide. Maybe just a half hour once in a while. It doesn't have to be an intense regimen. The practice of letting go of busy mind is very beneficial. Larry 50896 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 10:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satori? nidive Hi Howard, > Absolutely nothing to hold onto - "the ground slipping out from > under my feet," rather like being in the midst of the spiritual > analogue of a major earthquake. Although I don't really understand what you meant by "the ground slipping out from under my feet", I think it must have been real terrifying. Regards, Swee Boon 50897 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 10:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satori? lbidd2 Nina: "I know nothing about this subject, but I understood that one has to go through the stages of tender insight before there can be vipassana defilements. That is quite something, is't it? It means that one directly realizes seeing now as being different from visible object, and that one also has begun to see the arising and falling away of nama and rupa separately, one at a time." Hi Nina, Thanks for your comments. In general I agree but I look forward to more in-depth study and discussion in the years to come. At the moment I feel ill equiped to formulate a view. Larry 50898 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- Dan's Right view Is Right. buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. - After making an effort to examine the fine points of our "exchange", I am satisfied with the semi-conclusion we have made. More discussion is perhaps a good idea; but it is not necessary because of marginal return. >Dan. D. : I am glad to hear you sometimes appreciate the need to consult the commentaries. They really are a rich source of good suggestions for interpreting the texts. > Tep : The word "sometimes" is important. Another important word is "selective". .............................. > Dan D. : > "It is wonderful and marvellous, venerable sir, how this dependent > arising is so deep and appears so deep, yet to myself it seems as > clear as clear can be." > > "Do not say so, Ananda! Do not say so, Ananda! This dependent arising is deep and it appears deep." (Mahanidana sutta) > > Generally speaking, often what appears to be very clear in the suttas > is really quite deep, with many intricacies and facets that cannot be > readily grasped. Much, much study and reflection and contemplation is required. > Tep: Thank you for the ppropriate sutta quote and appropriate warning. .................................... >Dan D. : > My understanding is that the "contemplation" of the 4NT and the > knowledge of them that is referred to in the suttas is itself the > supramundane right view, not something that leads to it -- yathabhuta > pajanati. > Tep: Let's call this our difference #1 : " the contemplation of 4 NT and the knowledge of them that is referred to in the suttas is itself the supramundane right view,not something that leads to it " It is my understanding that anupassana is not the same as its outcome, i.e. vipassana ~nana ....................................... > > Tep: That is a pretty good overview, Dan. Have you ever wondered why DN 22 does not state the case of supramundane right view (whose object, I presume, is Nibbana)? > > Dan D. :Interesting question. My understanding is that DN 22 *does* discuss supramundane right view, which is the penetration of the 4NT. > Tep: I see. How can you tell whether DN 22 discusses supramundane right view of a Sotapanna or of the Arahant? {I do not expect any answer.} ...................................................... > > > > Tep: ... ... My understanding tells me that right view is the knowledge(~nana) of the 4 Noble Truths, it is not yet 'yathabhuta pajanati'. My reply in 8) below explains that anupassana of the 4 Noble Truths leads to yathabhutam pajanati of these truths. > Dan D. : > The "knowledge" must be yathabhuta pajanati (and not a conceptual > understanding) because that knowledge is said to be liberating > knowledge. Before there can be such supramundane, liberating Right View, there must be substantial and profound and extended development of the more immediately relevant mundane right view, the object of which is not 4NT. > Tep: According to the definition of right view (see the MN 2 and DN 22 quotes of my earlier post) as ~nana , it is clear from the context that it is the mundane right view as defined in MN 117. It is fine that we disagree; just note this as our difference # 2. ........................................................ > > > Tep: This observation you have made is pretty good. Theoretical > > considerations, definitions, or concepts of the 4 Noble Truths > (including the 8 path factors) are not helpful for penetration (pativedha) -- only anupassana of the 4 Noble Truths is truly helpful for developing insight knowledge and penetration that leads to the Stream-entry [according to MN 2]. > Dan D. > Prior to stream entry, the "knowledge" of the 4NT is strictly > conceptual (theoretical, if you will) and is not -ñana as used in the > suttas. If so, would it make any difference in your practice? > Tep: That is our difference #3 -- our understanding of ~nana is not the same. Again, it doesn't matter; we can leave the difference the way it is. My anupassana practice of the 4 NT does not depend on the definition of ~nana; it depends on my understanding of the 4 NT and how I contemplate the truths. Sincerely, Tep ======== 50899 From: nina Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:04am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 6, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satori? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and all, > I know nothing about this subject, but I understood that one has to go > through the stages of tender insight before there can be vipassana > defilements. That is quite something, is't it? > It means that one directly realizes seeing now as being different from > visible object, and that one also has begun to see the arising and falling > away of nama and rupa separately, one at a time. Hi Nina, I sent a reply to this but it disappeared. The gist of it was, "in general I agree, but let's study this some more over the next several years". I really don't have any understanding of the stages of the path of purification. Larry 50901 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: (Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 (2nd session) 3 htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Thanks for your mail and linking. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, Again, instead of replying in text, I just want to make a more general statement. They are under various headings based on points in our discussions. 1. Living in conventional world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)). We are also living in ultimate world. That is paramattha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Conventional reality is the product of thinking. The foolish will take conventional designations as ultimately real, the wise would use it wisely ;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Only the wise know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: For the purpose of day to day living there may or may not be panna necessary. However for the study and understanding of "reality", the use of conventional designations must be with panna, i.e. pariyatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am thinking whether pa~n~naa is wisdom. I am also thinking whether wisdom is pa~n~naa. But I doubt wisdom is pannaa. Because there are many wicked people who trickfully, intelligently do bad things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 2. Brothel/Retreat – Prostitute/Meditator => Self-view. The idea of better time and place for meditation brings forth the idea of "meditator". This is conditioned by self-view and encourages more self view. It is not alright to decide to meditate and to then say that these are all conditions, that there was no `self' behind the decision. Right view does not make such choices because the object of right view is paramattha dhammas or concepts of these and this is independent of concepts of time, place, person and posture. I would choose not to visit the brothel, for the reason that there arise unpleasant feelings associated with the thought that it would condition lots of akusala. This may or may not be associated with wrong view. However if I did have the idea that it is not conducive to the arising and development of satipatthana, then this will be with the idea of "self" and "control", hence wrong view. This then conditions the idea of another more suitable time and place, i.e. meditation retreat. So indeed the very idea of `meditation retreat' is one that encourages self-view. So I point the finger not only at those who go there, but to all those who promote and encourage it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will just respond the last sentence. Earlier part is OK. So you point out all those who go to the retreats and all those who promote and encourage it. Is that right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 3. The idea of Retreat/Meditation/Meditator = Self-view. If these retreats were conducted by peoples of other religions and philosophies, I would not question it. There are good reasons to go on retreats, for example, to lessen sense impressions. Perhaps they may be developing samatha, I can't be sure. However Buddhists retreats are different, they talk about the development of satipatthana, and this I believe is wrong. The wisdom that it vipassana is different from samatha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Be careful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The former seeks to eradicate ignorance and must be grounded on an understanding (at least pariyatti) of conditionality and anatta. The latter sees the danger of sense impressions and akusala of other kinds, particularly lobha, and so seeks with the idea of `self', to withdraw from such contacts. To go on retreats with the latter objective in mind is not so bad, but to do so with the other idea is to further feed wrong view. And invariably one ends up more strongly attached to the idea of meditation- "spend more hours meditating"! And even though many so called `meditators' disagree on some important aspects of the Teachings, they all together cheer when any one of them speak out against so called non-meditators. That's the value attached to the idea over everything else Dhamma. :-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If someone is swimming he is a real swimmer. But if someone study how to swim but never swim, he is not a swimmer. This does not mean 'when someone does not sit like a statue is called non-meditator'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And what is the cause of this? Wrong pariyatti to start with!! You said: "Ask anyone from age 7 to 100, the value of a retreat". Exactly!! A good concept for wrong view to feed on! Is it not better to find out what that underlying view might be? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Have you asked some of them? Which is better? a) going to a brothal b) going to a retreat ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I like the quiet of my car when caught in traffic and have had some good reflections then/there. But do I make this into a meditation room? The real noise is one of the three papanca, and `ditthi' should be our prime concern. And it speaks when there is such an idea as, "let me go to such and such a place. I shall develop satipatthana there." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not believe ditthi is the prime concern. Ditthi is eradicated only when sotapatti magga naana arises. So why bother ditthi? Anatta is not very important for puthujana who are learning Dhamma. They will learn anatta at pariyatti level. But they do not need to bother atta/anatta problem when they follow the Path. Anatta is more important for stream-enterers and above. That is why The Buddha preached Anattalakkhana Sutta to 5 sotapanna-panca-vaggii and not to puthujana-panca-vaggii. I do not know why you (Sukin and DSGs) are so frightened to atta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 4. Intention to "do" satipatthana. Satipatthana has a paramattha dhamma as object. What we identify as intention, is one that has a concept as object, for example, "to be mindful of dhammas". When such a thought arises, already many, many dhammas have arisen and fallen away, each with intention as accompanying mental factor. If there is no awareness of thinking as thinking but instead believing in the story about `being mindful, then there is no knowing the dhammas arising in subsequent cittas which conditions the "act" of observing. Hence the wrong path has been followed. Were there instead sati of the initial thinking, then one will also perhaps see the difference between *real* satipatthana and that which is conditioned when the wrong path is taken. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No comment here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 5. Bhavana must be with panna. Correct pariyatti which conditions correct patipatti is not opposed to kusala of other levels. Part of correct pariyatti is to see kusala as kusala, besides dana and sila levels is also seen as a support to the development of panna. However when we talk about the actual moments of bhavana and the importance of this, then we do need to know that simple kusala without panna is not going to lead us out of samsara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So encouraging bhavana is not the same as discouraging other forms of kusala, don't you think? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, you may be right. I just remember target and initial travel of the arrow said by Robert K. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 6. Not having eradicated self-view, is no excuse to "do" anything with `self'. To continue: With Metta, Htoo Naing 50902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Hi Tep (and James), I was glad to hear about your experiences. But what I learnt is not only the Thai way, also the Burmese way. Perhaps in general an Asian way. I have to explain something else. When in Cambodia it went this way: Kh Sujin said a few sentences and stopped for the translator to translate it into Kmer. So it went on, and amazing how she kept the thread. All her words are spoken, she does not write. Then others write it down, but they are too polite to turn sentences around or change anything. Perhaps I should have made more changes myself, but when reading aloud to Lodewijk I notice more things. So this was the whole process. Nina. op 01-10-2005 18:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >> Thank you for asking for my opinion about the "Thai way" that is quite > different from the Western way. > 50903 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: An overdose for Htoo 6? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo (& James, Sukin) Btw, I don't agree with your comments on the ayatanas in #50691, #50725, > #50729 or #50446 (maybe more on my return), or your references to > satipatthana arising at nama or rupa there. Also on santirana cittas in > #50452, the same citta can have different functions depending on what > 'job' it's doing - not always 'investigating function'. > > #50410 on hadaya vatthu and sotapatthi magga cittas not arising in aruupa > realms. The reason they cannot arise is I believe because there's no > chance to hear the teachings and develop understanding of sense-door > dhammas. In your list of reference texts, pls tell me more about: -Jinatthapakaasanii -Samvegavatthudiipanii I'm not familiar with these. On your unfinished business -- pls keep giving DSG priority! Metta, Sarah p.s I think this is Sukin's post you were looking for - I just typed 'Sukin' in the 'search' on the DSG homepage:) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50414 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. When you are back from Indian trip then re- start the discussions again. Sukin sent me a link and now I have replied one part up to 5 points or heading that he made. Jinatthapakaasanii and Samvegavatthudiipanii are books written by a Myanmar Venerable Sayadaw by using a good references. I do not know whether they exist in other languages. Regarding unfinished business, the first priority is proof-reading of 'the translation of satipatthaana sutta by Venerable Mahaasii Sayadaw'. Then DSG comes in second position. I hope you agree this. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50904 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Thanks for the lovely e-mail. Nina: Lodewijk found that the question was not answered straight and he objected. James: Lodewijk and I see eye-to-eye on many issues. Nina: Sometimes the Dhamma sessions in Bangkok upset him for more than one day. He really tries to attend them, but he just cannot. James: I might very well react the same way. Nina: In the West people want a straight, logical answer to their questions, but the Thai way is different, it is more round about. I am used to the Thai way and for me it is fine. James: It is interesting that you point this out. I had never thought about it before. I remember my meditation teacher in Arizona from Thailand, Ajahn Somporn, and he would often give round about answers to questions. I had to translate for him at meditation retreats because his English was broken and he would always give the basics before answering a question directly. Sometimes he would just talk forever! ;-)) It was really a test of my patience and attention to catch the kernel of information he said to translate to the audience (mainly Americans). I thought that this was just particular to Ajahn Somporn but now I see that it is a Thai manner of communication. So, Nina, when you ask KS my question, you can do what I did at the meditation retreats: just give me the kernel of information. I don't need a word-by-word translation of what she said. Nina: As to asubha, the crux is in the word choosing: it depends on conditions what subject offers itself at a certain moment. James: Huh?? This sounds like the Muslim belief that everything that happens has been written down in `God's Book' previously. We are not just passive observers of the world which `offers itself' to us. We can choose what to attend to and what not. If this wasn't possible, Buddhism would be pointless. Nina: She wants to stress: beware of a self choosing, or desiring (with lobha) to have more awareness, to possess it. James: I understand her philosophy, but that still doesn't get around the fact that she is contradicting the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta. The commentary says to choose an object of contemplation. It doesn't give any warnings of `self' and it doesn't beat around the bush about it. It is very direct: choose an object of contemplation. Nina: This is meant for a person who thinks: I must first develop samatha with asubha, I must do something else first before there can be awareness of nama and rupa. This is a hindrance, an obstruction. James: I disagree. This is not a hindrance or obstruction. Perhaps the person must develop samatha with asubha first because of a great deal of lust in the mind. One cannot begin to observe nama and rupa if there is a thick barrier of lust in the way- lust toward objects and concepts. This is why the Buddha taught the section on the asubha. Nina: However, it puts aubha in a wider context. Asubha is not the only thing in the world. Why choose especially that? James: See my previous answer. Nina: Lodewijk added just now that people are entangled in their Western way of logical thinking, and that this is not the only way. He knows. James: Tell Lodewijk Hi for me! ;-)). Yes, the Western way is not the only way, and we must be open-minded. I appreciate this living in a foreign country (Egypt). But, questions should be answered. Nina: I like to do away with prejudices. James: Me too! Metta, James 50905 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 0:54pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Robert K. (Rob M and Swee), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > Once again I have been negligent to reply, pure laziness on my part. > This passage relates how wise attention is able to arise in this > life: > The Paramatthadipani nama Undanatthakatha (trans. masefield p32) > Enlightenment chapter: > talks about such factors as hearing the true dhamma and wise > attention. > the note on page 168 (note 225) says: > 'Svpt[Digha-tika]simply states that paying methodical > attention[ayoniso manisikara] is the FRUITION of proper > development of self and the fact that one has previously > performed merit, whilst non-distraction the FRUITION of hearing > true Dhamma and waiting on sappurisa [wise person]. > The pali is "yatha yonisomanisikara karenaphalabhutena > attasammapanidhipubbekatapunnatanam siddhi vutta ...evam > avikkhepena phalabhutena karanbhutanam > saddhammasavanasapurrisupassayanama siddhi dassetabba" > > I am showing this thread to ROBM and will try to add some more once > I read your reply. > Robertk This passage seems to point to the accumulation of intelligence, not wisdom. I do believe that intelligence is accumulated. Wisdom arises because of conditions and once it has done its job it goes away again. Rob M. has written a very nice post on the difference between kamma and accumulations which I appreciate. However, notice he states that wisdom arises because of accumulations, he doesn't state that wisdom IS an accumulation. He writes, "These are the things that we must do to develop the accumulations to increase the odds that panna will arise in future mental states." As I have been stating, only practice will create the conditions for wisdom to arise. Wisdom doesn't accumulate, as far as I can see. To quote again from Rob M: "In the Bhumija Sutta (MN126) the Buddha explains that: - If one makes aspiration and does not have proper practice, then there will be no fruit (result) - If one makes no aspiration and does not have proper practice, then there will be no fruit (result) - If one makes aspiration and has proper practice, then there will be fruit (result) - If one makes no aspiration and has proper practice, then there will be fruit (result)" So, it is the practice which is important, not a past accumulation of wisdom (which doesn't exist). One can't depend on wisdom accumulating for lifetime after lifetime. I believe that the Buddha taught that practice and fruit must be achieved during this very life. Metta, James 50906 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:14pm Subject: Re: Satori? buddhatrue Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks for your reply. I'm not familiar with Zen but I have no doubt > that there is a level of satori that would condition the arising of > path consciousness. My experience also was just a glimpse of anatta. It > helped me to understand what other people with deeper experiences and > understandings were talking about. If you get something out of > meditation I would encourage you to keep at it even though you don't > have a guide. Maybe just a half hour once in a while. It doesn't have > to be an intense regimen. The practice of letting go of busy mind is > very beneficial. > > Larry Thanks for the kind words and advice. I am starting to get back to meditating regularly but it is a slow process. I have developed some bad habits I need to break (being lazy is the worst one ;-)). I do meditate on and off but I need to be meditating more on than off! ;-) It needs to become a habit. My excuse of not having a teacher is not a very good excuse- nice of you to point that out for me. Metta, James 50907 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satori? onco111 Was it an honest-to-goodness dosa/akusala fear? Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Dan - > > In a message dated 10/1/05 10:11:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > onco111@y... writes: > > > >----------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > My experience was more terrifying than "cool"! ;-) > > >---------------------------------------- > > > > What specifically was terrifying? > > > ===================== > Absolutely nothing to hold onto - "the ground slipping out from under > my feet," rather like being in the midst of the spiritual analogue of a major > earthquake. (Unfortunately, my mind lacked the layer of equanimity that prior > mastery of jhanas would have cultivated.) > > With metta, > Howard > 50908 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 10/1/05 5:02:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Was it an honest-to-goodness dosa/akusala fear? > > Dan > ======================== I find it interesting that you are pursuing this point, Dan. Is there a particular reason or just interest? To answer your question: Yes, it was honest-to-goodness fear. It was outright terror, in fact. Despite that fact, it was transformative as regards establishing a strong and continuing no-self conviction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50909 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:45pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > Sorry, just because I can't define the exact working of > > accumulations (or kamma for that matter - see Inconjurables > > Sutta AN IV.77) doesn't mean that I should not use accumulations > > as a guide for my life. The Kalamas had a similar concern and the > > Buddha eloquently showed how a belief in the efficacy of kamma > > should not influence their behaviour. > > Since you raise the Inconjecturables Sutta, I wonder why accumulations > is not mentioned as one of those inconjecturables? > ===== Interestng point. I have no answer. ===== > > I use the same argument to say, whether accumulations transfer > > across existences or not, surely this makes no difference in the > > way you behave now. > > Bottom line is that a detailed understanding of how accumulations > > are impacting a specific mental state is not necessary for me to > > apply guidelines to my current behaviour. > > You have your own beliefs which I respect. > > > Sorry, I can't find any references to support the idea that the > > impact of accumulations is limited to the current lifetime. Quite > > the reverse; Sumeda's vow lasted countless lifetimes. The Buddha > > married Yasodhara in multiple lifetimes. > > I already said that it is an unknown. > ===== A. Why is it that my son is gifted in music? B. Why is it that, as a teenager in Canada, when I let my mind wander free to decide "my own set of beliefs", that I ended up with many of the key points of Buddhism (never having read anything about Buddhism)? C. Why is it that of the many thousands of women I had met, I was immediately interested in the woman who became my wife when I first saw her? My answers: A. I believe that my son has musical experience in a previous lifetime and brought that accumuation into this existence B. I believe that I had studied the dhamma in a previous lifetime and brought that accumulation into this existence C. I believe that I had known this person in a previous lifetime and brought that accumulation into this existence There is also a Sutta where Sariputta approaches the Buddha because one of Sariputta's students is not progressing with his meditation. The Buddha asks, "what meditation object did you give?" Sariputta answered, "The man is young so I gave foulness of the body to break attachment to youth". Buddha answered, "For five previous lifetimes, this person has been a goldsmith. He is used to looking at beautiful things. Tell him to meditate on a golden lotus." In other words, the accumulations from previous lives was important (more important than the current life). Metta, Rob M :-) 50910 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6./ Control of Asubha Bhavana? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and James - I found the following comments of yours worth discussing. >Nina: She wants to stress: beware of a self choosing, or desiring >(with lobha) to have more awareness, to possess it. ... As to asubha, >the crux is in the word choosing: it depends on conditions what >subject offers itself at a certain moment. This is meant for a person >who thinks: >I must first develop samatha with asubha, I must do something else >first before there can be awareness of nama and rupa. This is a >hindrance, an obstruction. > James: We are not just passive observers of the world which `offers >itself' to us. We can choose what to attend to and what not. >If this wasn't possible, Buddhism would be pointless. ... One cannot >begin to observe nama and rupa if there is a thick barrier of lust in the >way- lust toward objects and concepts. This is why the Buddha taught >the section on the asubha. Tep: The corollaries of the "self choosing" theme seem to be the followings: one cannot control greed and other defilements; one should wait for asubha to offer itself, because it is a conditioned dhamma; and one should not do a "formal meditation". Just read the following instruction given by the Venerable Ananda to a young monk, Vangisa. It goes against this main theme of Khun Sujin. James has been right. SN VIII.4, Ananda Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn08- 004.html#vangisa [ Vangisa: ] With sensual lust I burn. My mind is on fire. Please, Gotama, from compassion, tell me how to put it out. [Ven. Ananda:] From distorted perception your mind is on fire. Shun the theme of the beautiful accompanied by lust. See mental fabrications as other, as stress, & not-self. Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. Develop the mind -- well-centered & one -- in the foul, through the foul. Have your mindfulness immersed in the body. Be one who pursues disenchantment. Develop the theme-less. Cast out conceit. Then, from breaking through conceit, you will go on your way at peace. [endquote] Regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for the lovely e-mail. > 50911 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 4:46pm Subject: A wholesome dream philofillet Hi all I read last evening that sharing merit, sharing one's kusala, can be a form of dana, or something, I forget. Gives others' a chance to rejoice in one's kusala. So let me tell you about a dream I had last night. I hardly ever remember dreams anymore, but last night I dreamed I was on a train here in Japan when a very mean old woman accused me falsely, out of the blue, of stealing or trying to steal her bag or something. Now, my customary response (in a dream or otherwise) might be to rage at her and bite her head off (perhaps literally) but in this dream I calmly said "haven't you misunderstood?" and waited with equanimity for the police to come. I think it was resolved in my favour - that was the feeling. So I feel there were kusala (wholesome) conditions at work, though in a dream. Quite encouraging. Phil 50912 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > A. Why is it that my son is gifted in music? > > B. Why is it that, as a teenager in Canada, when I let my mind > wander free to decide "my own set of beliefs", that I ended up > with many of the key points of Buddhism (never having read > anything about Buddhism)? > > C. Why is it that of the many thousands of women I had met, I was > immediately interested in the woman who became my wife when I first > saw her? > > My answers: > A. I believe that my son has musical experience in a previous > lifetime and brought that accumuation into this existence > > B. I believe that I had studied the dhamma in a previous lifetime > and brought that accumulation into this existence > > C. I believe that I had known this person in a previous lifetime and > brought that accumulation into this existence Now, I understand the basis for your beliefs in accumulations and its importance to your life. > There is also a Sutta where Sariputta approaches the Buddha because > one of Sariputta's students is not progressing with his meditation. > The Buddha asks, "what meditation object did you give?" Sariputta > answered, "The man is young so I gave foulness of the body to break > attachment to youth". Buddha answered, "For five previous lifetimes, > this person has been a goldsmith. He is used to looking at beautiful > things. Tell him to meditate on a golden lotus." In other words, the > accumulations from previous lives was important (more important than > the current life). I think this is an example that is an exception rather than the norm. I don't think the Buddha gave specific meditation instructions for all bhikkhus. If this is really crucial, then there isn't any hope for attaining superhuman states in this day and age. Regards, Swee Boon 50913 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Purnomo christine_fo... Hello Purnomo, If you are reading DSG - I hope that you and your family are safe and protected, and happy in heart and mind. Thinking of you and all those in Bali ... when will we ever learn? "Hate is not overcome by hate; by love (metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50914 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wheel 331/333 lbidd2 BB: "If there are commentarial statements from Buddhaghosa stating unambiguously that concepts are not impermanent, I would be interested in seeing them." Hi Sarah, I couldn't find anything unambiguous but I did fine one instance where Buddhaghosa _appears_ to say that a counterpart sign is not "stamped with the three characteristics". However, in the same paragraph he also says this sign is "born" and "arises": Vism.IV,31: The difference between the earlier learning sign and the counterpart sign is this. In the learning sign any fault in the kasina is apparent. But the counterpart sign appears as if breaking out from the learning sign, and a hundred times, a thousand times more purified, like a looking-glass disk drawn from its case, like a mother-of-pearl dish well washed, like the moon's disk coming out from behind a cloud, like cranes against a thunder cloud. But it has neither colour nor shape; for if it had, it would be cognizable by the eye, gross, susceptible of comprehension [by insight--(see Ch.XX,2f.) and stamped with the three characteristics. But it is not like that. For it is born only of perception in one who has obtained concentration, being a mere mode of appearance. But as soon as it arises the hindrances are quite suppressed, the defilements subside, and the mind becomes concentrated in access concentration. L: More famously there is the case of the bhikkhuni Vajiraa's encounter with Mara: SN I,5.10: "Why do you assume 'a being'? Mara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations: Here no being is found. "Just as, with the assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, There is the convention 'a being'. "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." L: In other words, neither a chariot nor a being come to be. Larry View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 50901 - 50914 of 50914 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Message # Search: Post Message What's This? YAHOO! SPONSOR RESULTS Buddhism Ritual Products: Tibetan Spirit - Tibetan Spirit offers a full selection of Tibetan Buddhism ritual items, statues, paintings, singing bowls, incense, jewelry, rugs and more at low prices. www.tibetanspirit.com Buddhism Teachings & Meditation Insights - Get regular free teachings by E-mail on Buddhism. Deepen your understanding on meditation. No charge. Complimentary E-book containing Buddhist teachings. Get inspiring insights and guidance. www.buddhism-connect.org Tibetan and Buddhist Books - Great and extensive selection of books on Tibetan Buddhism. www.namsebangdzo.com Copyright © 2005 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy - Copyright/IP Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home - Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Files Photos Links Calendar Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... You can add links to your Web sites related to your group? Yahoo! 360° Keep connected to your friends and family through blogs, photos and more. Create your own 360° page now. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Post Message View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 50915 - 50944 of 50949 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Sort by Date 50915 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. bardosein Hi Rob M, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > A. Why is it that my son is gifted in music? > > > > B. Why is it that, as a teenager in Canada, when I let my mind > > wander free to decide "my own set of beliefs", that I ended up > > with many of the key points of Buddhism (never having read > > anything about Buddhism)? > > > > C. Why is it that of the many thousands of women I had met, I was > > immediately interested in the woman who became my wife when I first > > saw her? > > > > My answers: > > A. I believe that my son has musical experience in a previous > > lifetime and brought that accumuation into this existence > > > > B. I believe that I had studied the dhamma in a previous lifetime > > and brought that accumulation into this existence > > > > C. I believe that I had known this person in a previous lifetime and > > brought that accumulation into this existence I expect I'm missing something here, but don't your three answers to your three questions beg your initial questions? For example, saying that Jim is a Professor because he was a Professor last year, doesn't answer the question _why_ Jim is a professor. How does saying that he was a Professor in a previous life (or lives) get us any closer to answering the question? Hal 50916 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:12pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] Conceit is like a “lunacy”, we are foolish when we have conceit. Conceit is akusala dhamma, it is impure. When there is conceit there is also ignorance which does not know the true nature of realities. There is shamelessness, ahirika, which is not ashamed of akusala, there is recklessness, anottappa, which does not see the danger of akusala, and there is restlessness, uddhacca, which is confused and prevents the citta from being stable in kusala. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50917 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:36pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) bardosein Hello Sarah, I understand that conceit is only eradicated at the final stage of Arahantship. How are we to understand the differences in the occurrence of conceit in a worldling (as indicated in Nina's remarks) and it's occurrence in a noble disciple? Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] > > Conceit is like a "lunacy", we are foolish when we have conceit. > Conceit is akusala dhamma, it is impure. > > When there is conceit there is also ignorance which does not know the true > nature of realities. There is shamelessness, ahirika, which is not ashamed > of akusala, there is recklessness, anottappa, which does not see the > danger of akusala, and there is restlessness, uddhacca, which is > confused and prevents the citta from being stable in kusala. > ***** > [Conceit(maana)to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 50918 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:28am Subject: Satori hasituppada Dear Friends, There was a discussion on Satori. I thought I will post this to those interested. Ven Bodhirama is credited with the introduction of Satori to China, in the sixth century. Satori is said to be an aspect of Jhana which is the enlightenment. Zen Buddhism divested itself of, as they call the outer skin of the Buddha, which is his teachings, and goes deeper to understand the Buddha's enlightenment process, which is satory, the attainment of which is sudden. If that suddenness is not their it is not satori. There is no intellectualism of dhamma, or attempts at reason or logic in Zen. The enlightenment and nirvana are not seen as two separate dhammas, to understand enlightenment is to understand nirvana. The satori appears from within. To achive this lot of meditative concentration is necessary. Therefore the patriarchs stressed on meditation . The pupil would go to a mountain or the forest alone or with a pupil and live their dedicating themselves to strenuous meditation. When he thinks that he is ready to receive further instructions to attain satori,he cames to see the teacher. The teacher tests the pupil in various ways, some times one would think they are cruel and hard . Once the Master is satisfied he asks the pupil an absurd question something like," All things return to the one and where does the one return to ?". That is called a koan. The pupil turns it in his mind trying to find the answer. He leaves the Master and goes back to meditate, now to find the solution for the koan. He keeps working on it deeply concentrating on the koan and one day all of a sudden he understands the meaning. He has attained satori. Koans are never explained, when the pupil goes back to the Master, he knows that the pupil has attained satori. This is a short reply. With metta, Hasituppada 50919 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 1:00am Subject: Being one with an object one touches ! hasituppada Dear Friends There was some one, who said that after a meditation session, he took his wrist watch and found for an instance that he became one with that which he touched. I think it was James. Permit me a reply, just my opinion. Meditation should be done under the guidance of a teacher, say at a retreat, and after that one may go on to practice alone. The reason is meditating alone the yogi is unable to evaluate his progress. In short he will not know what is going on. Irritation, impatience and even anger that surface in one who is meditating denotes progress . Progress because his mind is getting clear and does not allow " rubbish" to get in. That only a teacher could tell. Being one with the object is certainly not Satori. This type of thing happens to a meditator, who had been in deep Samadhi, and stops without allowing the mind to come out of Samadhi. In that state when he gets up he is still in Samadhi and disappearance of parts of bodies, and empty sensations are common signs of that. It is dangerous in that state to go down steps, because the meditator will see the ground even and may miss a step !! A teacher may tell a yogi with that deep Samadhi,that he is ready for Jhana absorbtions. ( if he has not already unknowingly got absorbed into the first Jhana. There are ways of finding out.) Therefore once you have terminated a meditation session, concentrate and tell your self several times "may the mind come off Samadhi". Then think of the nine qualities of the Buddha and terminate the session and get up mindfully. With metta, Hasituppada 50920 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:48pm Subject: Absolute Peace ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the characteristics of the State Called Nibbana? Nibbana is: Absence of any uncertainty, all doubt, confusion, delusion & ignorance.. Presence of confidence, cleared certainty, understanding, and knowing.. Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, all hunger and pull.. Presence of imperturbable indifference, serene composure & equanimity.. Absence of any hate, anger, hostility, irritation, stubbornness & rigidity.. Presence of universal goodwill, infinite friendliness, & boundless amity.. Not a place, not an idea, not a deception, not a conceit, not a conception.. Not a cause, not an effect, not finite, not formed, not changing, eternal.. Unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncreated, unconditioned & unconstructed.. Void of eye, visible objects & visual consciousness, void of ear, sounds & auditory consciousness, void of nose, smells & olfactory consciousness, void of tongue, tastes & gustatory consciousness, void of body, touch & tactile consciousness and void of mind, thoughts & mental consciousness.. Total ease, quiet calm, absolute stillness, safe lasting quiescence, peace.. The Blessed Buddha said: Hard it is to see the unconstructed, the undistorted! This independent state is not easily realized. Craving is all cut for the One, who so knows, since he sees that there is nothing to cling to ... !!! Udana Inspiration: VIII - 2 In any dependence there is bound to be instability. In Independence there cannot be any instability. When there is no liable instability, no feeble wavering, there is a quiet calm, stillness, serenity & peace. When there is such solid tranquillity, then there is no tendency to drift, no attraction, no mental push nor pull, nor strain of appeal or repulsion. When there is no attraction, no drift, no bending, then there is no movement, no development, no coming nor going. No starting nor ending. When there is no coming nor going, then neither is there any ceasing nor any reappearing. Neither ceasing nor reappearing, there is no here, there, beyond nor in between... This  just this  is the End of Suffering. Udana Inspiration: VIII - 4 Having understood this unconstructed state, released in mind, with the cord to becoming eliminated, they attain to the sublime essence of all states. Delighting in the calmed end of craving, those steady ones have left all being & becoming. Itivuttaka: Thus spoken 38 Nibbana is Excellent, Sublime & Supreme - The Highest Bliss - ... !!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50921 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 1:09am Subject: Re: Satori bardosein Greetings Hasituppada, Thanks for your post. Are you familiar with the works of Chinul, the founding Patriarch of Korean Zen Buddhism? It's been years since I read Robert Buswell's book, _The Korean Approach to Zen: The Collected Works of Chinul_. I wish I still had a copy. I mention Chinul, because he sought to reconcile both the gradual and sudden forms of awakening. If you haven't read it, you might find it interesting. I don't think Buswell's original translation is any longer in print; however, the University of Hawai'i press has published an abrigded version entitled: _Tracing Back the Radiance: Chinul's Korean Way of Zen_. Hal 50922 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for continuing this thread. My comments are interposed. I'll try this time to give more explanation of my own thinking, rather than asking questions (which make you feel uncomfortable). upasaka@... wrote: >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Distinguishing between namas and rupas, and between knowing and known, >is not at all something I put down. What I take exception to is mentally >*separating* them and treating them as self-existent, independent entities. >------------------------------------------- To my understanding, neither 'distinguishing between' namas and rupas or 'mentally separating' namas and rupas is the same as mundane insight/satipatthana. Both these are, as I would see it, variations on the same theme of directed mental activity (that builds further an idea of a self). Although it might be said that knowing nama as nama and rupa as rupa is 'distinguishing between' the two, there is I think a difference of emphasis to be appreciated. But in the end, it comes down to different understandings of the teaching on 'practice'. As I see it, the development of insight/satipatthana does not need the kind of 'health warnings' you sometimes give ;-)), such as treating namas and rupas as having attributes that they don't have (as in your message above), or the danger of reification etc. (as earlier in this thread). Panna arising naturally on occasion and not by dint of directed effort on our part leads only to better and better understanding, not to misapprehension of any kind. If on the other hand the teachings are seen as exhortations to undertake specific conventional mental activities, such as 'attending to' this or that, then, as we have already discussed, any 'practice' will necessarily involve many moments of aksuala, including wrong view. A person seeing this potential for pitfalls would no doubt feel the need to sound warnings about the various kinds of wrong view that may prevail. But I don't think we find anything of this nature in the suttas (to roughly paraphrase, 'This is the practice, but while practising be careful you don't take dhammas for something they aren't'). As regards 'knowing and known' which you mention above, do you find this a helpful way of considering things? I see this as altogether different from the nama-rupa classification, and somewhat alien to the suttas themselves, but I'd be interested to hear more about it. Does knowing/known here have the same meaning as experiencing/experienced, or is it something more (narrower) than that? (Sorry about the question.) >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > It is a matter of degree of genuine understanding or the opposite. It >is a matter of to what degree we see through our concepts or are enslaved by >them. >--------------------------------------------- Ah, but what I have been trying to point out is that there is a lot more going on than 'genuine understanding or the opposite' (I think by 'the opposite' here you mean ignorance). There is much ground between these two, and in an earlier message in this thread I listed some of these possibilities (including kusala without panna, akusala with or without wrong view, vipaka consciousness, etc). If we take the view that there is only either panna or avijja, the consequence is likely to be that we will end up assuming an awful lot of panna that just isn't there ;-)). Concepts are not the problem (and I know you are not suggesting that they are). The 'problem' is that dhammas - that is to say, any presently arising dhamma(s), nama or rupa - are not seen as they truly are, and for this there is only one remedy, the development of direct understanding of those dhammas. The main 'baddie' is wrong view (rather than ignorance), because it results in wrong practice, and wrong practice takes one further and further away from the goal. Howard, I hope I have managed to explain my side of things. Feel free of course to disagree, strongly even ;-)). Jon 50923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Hi James, greetings from Lodewijk. Interesting what you said about Achaan Somporn. I cannot go deeply into your remarks now, as you understand. Tep will save them for my return. I had a useful and agreeable exchange with Howard about choice, etc. which comes up just now in your remarks. There is one more point that may make it easier for you to understand Kh Sujin. She will never deny that real and true jhana is a high degree of kusala. She also understands people's inherent tendencies, their deep, hidden clinging to self. This may motivate them to take the false jhaana for the real one. Whatever kusala we do, she said: it is for your own sake. True, there are moments of kusala but mostly in between clinging to self or conceit. This is harsh, it hurts. It is a bitter medicine. It is somewhat like shock therapy as you experienced in Zen. She says these things so that we consider: yes, I am clinging to self although I do not like to admit it. Therefore, I find all such reminders most helpful. This also appeared in the way she answered the question about asubha. I appreciate the bitter medicine, I like to take it to get cured from the clinging to self. Otherwise there is no hope to ever eradicate or alleviate the other kinds of clinging. At the same time I understand why people are disinclined to her way of teaching. As Philip said, it also depends on the mood one is in. One cannot always accept it. In the following issue of Dh in Cambodia Kh Sujin further explains. I have to finish here, Nina. op 01-10-2005 21:27 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: We > are not just passive observers of the world which `offers itself' to > us. We can choose what to attend to and what not. If this wasn't > possible, Buddhism would be pointless. 50924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6./ Control of Asubha Bhavana? nilovg Hi Tep, please would you keep your letter in your files? Then we can have an exchange about it when I have returned. I wonder, could you think of another term instead of formal meditation, meanwhile? Different suttas emphasize different things, depending on the context. S.N. I, Ch 3, A Sword (B.B. translation, p. 100): At Saavatthi. Standing to one side, that devataa recited this verse in the presence of the Exalted One: "As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire, Abhikkhu should wander mindfully To abandon lust." [The Blessed One:] "As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire, Abhikkhu should wander mindfully Yo abandon identity view [N: sakkayadi.t.thi] " ----- Here is emphasized what comes first. Nina. op 02-10-2005 00:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >(snipped) > SN VIII.4, Ananda Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn08- > 004.html#vangisa > > [ Vangisa: ] > > With sensual lust I burn. My mind is on fire. .... > > Develop the mind -- well-centered & one -- in the foul, through the foul. 50925 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) nilovg Hi Hal, In a noble disciple conceit will be less gross. There are many degrees. It still arises when one has not reached arahatship, but conceit will become more subtle. It will not condition gross evil speech or action. It will not condition unwillingness to listen to a person who teaches true Dhamma. In the case of worldlings this is a severe obstacle. Nina. op 02-10-2005 08:36 schreef Hal op halwilson@...: > I understand that conceit is only eradicated at the final stage of > Arahantship. How are we to understand the differences in the > occurrence of conceit in a worldling (as indicated in Nina's remarks) > and it's occurrence in a noble disciple? 50926 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: Satori hasituppada Dear Hal, Thankyou for your message. No I have not read Chinul. I would like to read if I could get hold of a book. I am of Theravada School, but I have a great respect ( and an affection)for Zen. I read D.T.Suzuki. His too are wonderful reading material. I went back to James' posts and noted that he had asked the relevance of Satory to Theravada. It is the suddenness of Satory and the suddenness of Enlightenment that is relevant. Enlightenment can happen suddenly in any position, in any place. There are a few instances of it found in the texts. Two of them are as follows: Venerbale Ananda, who had to attend the first Council as an Arahat, meditated long hours and being tired wanted to lie down and it is said that as he was about to lay his head on the pillow he attained enlightenment to become an Arahat. Then with Patacara, who was washing her feet who saw the water flowing on to the ground and disappearing, attained enlightenment and became an Arahath. There are several other cases reported in the Tripitaka. with metta, Hasituppada 50927 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: nama and rupa distinguishable. bardosein Hi Johnathon (and Howard), I did appreciate reading this thread. However, I'm new to this study group and have so much to learn here. I've only just begun making my way through Nina's very helpful introductory book that I recently got in the mail. Please excuse my questions if they are misguided. J: "The main 'baddie' is wrong view (rather than ignorance), because it results in wrong practice, and wrong practice takes one further and further away from the goal." H: Stated this way, it would seem that "right view" is a necessary preconditon for undertaking any type of practise whatsoever. How could one ever begin? I also don't understand how you can seperate "ignorance" from "right view" or give priority to one over the other? Besides, isn't the latter a consequent of the former? The Satipatthana method as outlined and estolled by the Buddha, followed as prescribed, in the very *embodied* process of the undertaking, allows for the establishment of conditions whereby (as you said earlier in the same thread), panna will arise, "...naturally on occasion and not by dint of directed effort on our part leads only to better and better understanding, not to misapprehension of any kind" Aren't your remarks about right view quoted above, also prescriptive in the same way that you consider Howard's remarks "health warnings"? Hal 50928 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 3:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) bardosein Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. In terms of the cetasikas, could we say that the level of "conceit" _could_ be the same, but because certain defilements have been extinguished by the noble disciple, they will not arise in tandem with it? Wouldn't the established presence of wholesome mental factors also check its proliferation? In this way, could we say _mana_ , although it may arise to the same 'degree' as in a worldling, its occurrence would "not condition evil speach or action [and thought]"? Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Hal, > In a noble disciple conceit will be less gross. There are many degrees. It > still arises when one has not reached arahatship, but conceit will become > more subtle. It will not condition gross evil speech or action. It will not > condition unwillingness to listen to a person who teaches true Dhamma. In > the case of worldlings this is a severe obstacle. > Nina. > op 02-10-2005 08:36 schreef Hal op halwilson@g...: > > I understand that conceit is only eradicated at the final stage of > > Arahantship. How are we to understand the differences in the > > occurrence of conceit in a worldling (as indicated in Nina's remarks) > > and it's occurrence in a noble disciple? 50929 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: BB-CMA reprint sarahprocter... Hi Rob M & Larry & all, Thanks for your helpful comments. --- robmoult wrote: > In my post #15720, I listed a number of corrections to BB's CMA. They > may be the same as the list from U Silananda that BB mentions above, > but you might want to forward them to BB just in case. ... I just sent the following rushed reply to Ven Bodhi as it seems it couldn't wait til after our trip. You'll see I included a link to your earlier post. Thanks for that. Larry, I'll respond to BB on the impermanence/concepts wheel issue on return, so will keep your reply until then. Very helpful. It's a surprise to me that there's any question of impermanence applying to concepts, but I'll leave it for now. It's good to see you helping participating in many threads after going a bit quiet for a while:). If anyone else has quotes or comments on that thread, I'll also make a note of them til then. I think that compared to the discussion/disagreement on the ayatanas, it's a pretty straight forward one:). Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, Ken H, Rob K, Betty & all - if any of you have any other points on CMA you'd like brought to BB's attention, pls let me know. ============= Here's a copy my note sent a few minutes ago on the CMA reprint: ********** Dear Ven Bodhi, A member of DSG, Rob M, has suggested I bring this list of corrections by Ven U Silananda to your attention just in case you don't have any of them. He sent them to us before in this letter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15720 Apart from the comment you have already revised, the other parts of CMA I question most often (but don't have time now to discuss in detail) are: 1) Some of Ledi Sayadaw's comments on p164 (1st para) and p165 (ist 2 paras). I've put a pencil note in the margin to see Dispeller#2467. I remember trying to look in the commentaries for the same details without success. You've explained the reasons for inclusion in your intro as I recall. 2) Guide notes on the ayatanas p287,Guide to #36. I like the stress in the commentary on 'meeting' of the ayatanas etc. (I'm looking at Wijeratne and Gethin's transl of this comy note which I can quickly type out if you don't have a copy and would like to see it). I don't think there is any correlation with dhammaaramma.na at all, so maybe it's confusing to mention it. Yes, only paramattha dhammas, but inc. those kinds of subtle matter (inc in dhammaayatana) which are asabhaa.va surely? i.e all subtle rupas are included. (I believe we discussed or I wrote about this note in more detail before, but this is just a rushed comment.) I apologise for not being of more assistance here with my comments. I'd be glad to discuss in more detail on my return if it's of any use. I look forward to responding further on the points about the ayatanas in general and impermanence/concepts on return too. Friends on DSG were glad to read your comments on the wheel editorial note too. With respect, Sarah ======== 50930 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Absolute Peace ... !!! upasaka_howard Dear Bhikkhu Samahita - In a message dated 10/2/05 4:05:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bhikkhu.samahita@... writes: > Friends: > What is the characteristics of the State Called Nibbana? > > Nibbana is: > > Absence of any uncertainty, all doubt, confusion, delusion &ignorance.. > Presence of confidence, cleared certainty, understanding, and knowing.. > Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, all hunger and pull.. > Presence of imperturbable indifference, serene composure &equanimity.. > Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, all hunger and pull.. > Presence of universal goodwill, infinite friendliness, &boundless amity.. > Not a place, not an idea, not a deception, not a conceit, not a > conception.. > Not a cause, not an effect, not finite, not formed, not changing, eternal.. > Unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncreated, unconditioned &unconstructed.. > Void of eye, visible objects &visual consciousness, void of ear, sounds & > auditory consciousness, void of nose, smells &olfactory consciousness, > void of tongue, tastes &gustatory consciousness, void of body, touch & > tactile consciousness and void of mind, thoughts &mental consciousness.. > Total ease, quiet calm, absolute stillness, safe lasting quiescence, > peace.. > > ========================= Bhante, what, as you understand it, is the difference, then, between bodhi and nibbana? Is there not a distinction to be made between nibbana, the realization of nibbana, and the characteristics of a nibbana-realized mind? In a worldling there are uncertainty, great doubt, confusion, delusion & ignorance, and there are greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, much hunger and pull, because the worldling has not, in any degree, realized nibbana. Now if nibbana is a "state" characterized by the absence of all these conditions, for a worldling nibbana is non-existent! And should a worldling at some point become an ariyan and finally an arahant, will this "state" of nibbana then *arise*? If yes, then it would seem that nibbana is a conditioned phenomenon that arises.That, of course, is untenable. Is it not actually the *realization* of nibbana (spiritual awakening), that arises, but not nibbana itself, and does not that mean that the absences you list are not characteristics of nibbana, which is an ultimate, unconditioned, conceptually indescribable, timeless reality, but, rather, of a mind that has awakened to nibbana? It seems to me that nibbana is a reality, perhaps *the* reality, and one which is describable only in terms of what it is not, much as you do when you say that it is "Not a place, not an idea, not a deception, not a conceit, not a conception.. Not a cause, not an effect, not finite, not formed, not changing, eternal.. Unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncreated, unconditioned &unconstructed.. Void of eye, visible objects &visual consciousness, void of ear, sounds & auditory consciousness, void of nose, smells &olfactory consciousness, void of tongue, tastes &gustatory consciousness, void of body, touch & tactile consciousness and void of mind, thoughts &mental consciousness.." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50931 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/2/05 4:25:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Howard, I hope I have managed to explain my side of things. Feel free > of course to disagree, strongly even ;-)). > ====================== I believe that I understood your perspective before and that I still do. I find close to nothing in what you wrote in this post that we agree on! LOL! Our perspectives on Buddhist "practice" appear to be almost entirely mutually exclusive, and I honestly hardly know where to begin with discussing this. You speak of "wrong practice", but I am not aware of your accepting any sort of practice as I understand the term 'practice'. I DO believe the Buddha taught a "directed practice", and I am devoted to carrying it out. I have happily been engaging recently in a far more regular practice of formal meditation (yes, a mainstay of my "practice") and of ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses, and doing so has created an increasing calm and peace for me. I am feeling much joy in the knowledge that I am not squandering this precious human birth. (For myself, and I apply this only to myself, letting others decide for themselves, I consider not enaging in directed practice to be a terrible waste.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50932 From: "mattroke" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:33am Subject: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... mattroke Hi Howard (and Phil), I shall respond to all of your questions Howard, despite the fact that Phil has already replied in similar fashion to some. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >Dhammas of nama and rupa, arising and falling away, give rise to >the concept that there is a world and I exist in it. Nama dhammas >(cita and chetasikas)have characteristics that never change, >however, what nama experiences gives rise to concepts that will >vary. >Howard:The characteristics of cittas and cetasikas never change, >you say. I presume you must mean something by this that is >different, Matt, from what appears on the face of it, because on >the face of it you seem to be speaking of conditioned dhammas >that are permanent. --------------------------------------------- Matt: The characteristics do not change. That is why dosa, lobha and the other cetasikas can be recognized and known by panna for their unique characteristics. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >That nama and rupa arise is not a choice. >Howard: Now the fun begins! ;-) It is said that for an arahant who >has passed on, ncluding the Buddha, no longer does nama or rupa >arise. That is part and parcel of attaining nibbana. Did the >Bodhisatta make no choices that led to his complete and final >awakening, and the ending of (conditioned) experience? (That is to >say: Did not appropriate choices get made within the mindstream >that we identify with the Bodhisatta?) --------------------------------------------- Matt: Choices are concepts that come about because of thinking. The moments that make up thinking are realities, but there is no one who thinks. So, where is the person or Bodhisatta who makes choices? --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >That the sense doors arise is not a choice. That chetasikas have >this or that characteristic is not a choice. That nama experiences >this or that rupa is not a choice. >Howard: However, is there not the choice to *attend* to this or >that dhamma, and to avoid circumstances in which certain other >dhammas would arise? Was there no instruction by the Buddha to >guard the senses? ---------------------------------------------- Matt:The statement was refering to all the sense doors and mind door components and functions being in place and there is nothing to be done to make them come into being or to make them arise or fall away. Regarding your comment. Who or what attends to the dhammas or guards the senses? --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >That concepts about ourselves arise and come into being is not a >choice. That concepts about the world arise is not a choice. That >Dhamma is heard or not heard in not a choice. >Howard: Is there never a purposeful seeking out of situations >(such as being on the DSG list) to hear Dhamma? And might not >devout followers of other religions avoid such hearing >intentionally? ---------------------------------------------- >That there is understanding or no understanding of Dhamma is not a >choice. That concepts arise and think this is me and this is who I >am is not a choice. That there is thinking this is the right way and >that is the wrong way is not a choice. And yet there is clinging to >concepts as this is me, this is who I am, these are my views. >Howard: Cannot choices be made that will lead to understanding the >Dhamma? ---------------------------------------------- Matt: This has been answered above so some questions for you Howard. Can choices be made? Who chose to answer this question? --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >When young there was clinging to certain views and now when older >there is clinging to different views. Had nama and rupa conditioned >different concepts there would be clinging to those ideas now, >because they are the ideas that are conditioned to arise as >thinking. And because there is clinging to them there are >conditions for aversion. >Howard: Cannot volitional actions be taken that will lead to less >clinging? ---------------------------------------------- Matt: Cetasikas can arise, actions can take place and these can be the conditions for certain results. Is there a self to be found in cetasikas? Is there a self to be found in the dhammas that create the concepts of actions and results? --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- > When dhamma moments are not known then there is nothing else but >stories and the akusala baggage that comes with them. >Howard: Did the Buddha not teach volitional means to attend to what >arises in the moment? ---------------------------------------------- Matt: Insight into the moment is the point being made here. The Buddha taught what the conditions are for the arising of panna. He did not teach that there is a self that can make that happen. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >There is lobha for concepts, there is pride because of concepts, >there is aversion towards others because they have different views >or they criticize us or our beliefs, there are feelings of being >hurt, there is regret, there is blame and there are thoughts of >being sorry. When there is more understanding of the dhamma moments >which create the story, then there is more understanding that there >are only dhamma moments with their characteristics and no story. >Howard: But you would say that for more understanding of dhamma >moments to arise there is "not a choice." Is there also no choice to >take actions that will *lead* to greater understanding? Didn't the >Buddha teach otherwise? And if not, then did he teach a doctrine >that is simultaneously pure randomness (as regards action) and at >the same time rank determinism? ---------------------------------------------- Matt: The Buddha did not say that choice and action does not happen, but he did say that there is no self that makes the choices or does the actions. Actions are therefore not pure randomness and there are far too many conditions for it to be determinism. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >There is better understanding that the dhamma moments have only >their characteristic and there is no self or world or views in them, >that they fall away and that they do not stay, so they are >unsatisfactory. >Howard: There is better understanding of dhammas and their nature IF >WHAT? If there is no volition that leads to this, then this comes >down to saying that understanding will arise if it arises, and, of >course, it will fail to arise if it fails to arise! And that amounts >to a big "No kidding!" ---------------------------------------------- Matt: Of the people who hear Dhamma only a few come to embrace it and of those only a very few come to have some understand of it and of those only a very small number will ever get to see the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. So, if there is self determined volition, could we not say that of the few people who come to embrace Dhamma after hearing it or of the very few who come to have some understanding of Dhamma after embracing it or of the very small number who get to see the Dhamma as the Buddha taught it, that "understanding will arise if it arises, and, of course, it will fail to arise if it fails to arise"? Being so, then there is no difference between the two views. . . . except that one has a self. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >When there are only concepts about Dhamma, then there are conditions >for aversion towards others who do not share our beliefs and views. >When there is insight into the characteristics of dhammas then >there is mutual understanding of what reality is. >Howard: Indeed. But to create a non-quote that is consistent with >your position, "That wisdom or conditions leading to wisdom arise >is not a choice!" So, what, then, is the point of all this talk? >Que sera, sera - for you, for me, for anyone. There are no choices >to be made. That means there is just good fortune or bad. What a >great doctrine *that* is! It is not the Buddhadhamma, in my >estimation. ---------------------------------------------- Matt: Can ignorance choose to have wisdom? The Buddha started the wheel rolling when he spoke about Dhamma and brought about the conditions for hearing, leaning and discussing Dhamma. The conversations we have here are due to many conditions, the Buddha, the monks who protected the teachings, Dhamma publications, the internet and those who chose to set up this forum, etc. These conversations will then be conditions for more Dhamma talk, reflection, learning and hopefully understanding. In this way wisdom grows ever so slowly but not because a person with a certain level of ignorance chooses to have less ignorance (or a person with a certain level of wisdom chooses to have more wisdom). --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- >Howard: Getting back to the original statement of Phil's you are >addressing in this post, Matt, the statement "the problem is mine - >if there is so much aversion to others' posts and so much greed >about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a break," this >answer of yours seems to be there is no possibility for Phil to make >a choice to decide whether it is better or not to take a break, to >make a choice to study the matter, to decide what the actual facts >are, and to adopt a useful plan of action with regard to the facts. >I don't think that makes sense, Matt. I think that is merely >avoidence. ---------------------------------------------- Matt: If there is no understanding of what is real then there can be no understanding of what is not real, and what is not real is then taken to be real. When Phil talks about *the problem is mine*, *aversion to others' posts*, *much greed about mine being appreciated*, and *taking a break* he is taking concepts (the stories) to be real. When there is understanding of the realities that give rise to these concepts then the stories are not real. I think Phil understood that that was the "useful plan of action with regards to the facts". Matt R 50933 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Hal, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > > > > A. Why is it that my son is gifted in music? > > > > > > B. Why is it that, as a teenager in Canada, when I let my mind > > > wander free to decide "my own set of beliefs", that I ended up > > > with many of the key points of Buddhism (never having read > > > anything about Buddhism)? > > > > > > C. Why is it that of the many thousands of women I had met, I was > > > immediately interested in the woman who became my wife when I > first > > > saw her? > > > > > > My answers: > > > A. I believe that my son has musical experience in a previous > > > lifetime and brought that accumuation into this existence > > > > > > B. I believe that I had studied the dhamma in a previous lifetime > > > and brought that accumulation into this existence > > > > > > C. I believe that I had known this person in a previous lifetime > and > > > brought that accumulation into this existence > > I expect I'm missing something here, but don't your three answers to > your three questions beg your initial questions? For example, saying > that Jim is a Professor because he was a Professor last year, doesn't > answer the question _why_ Jim is a professor. How does saying that he > was a Professor in a previous life (or lives) get us any closer to > answering the question? > ===== Don't believe that we've chatted before... nice to meet you! Perhaps if I put my post into context, it might make more sense. Swee Boon and I have been discussing accumulations and kamma. Swee Boon is of the opinion that accumulations do not extend beyond a single lifetime. I was giving some reasons why I believe that accumulations extend across lifetimes. My son had musical experience in a previous lifetime. My wife and I were lucky that we happened to discover this latent talent in him and are developing it (international competitions). In this life, there was no predestiny that my son would be a musician. He has accumulations to support this career but there are always multiple conditions at play. If you are interested in the background of the conversation between Swee Boon and I, I think that the "Up Thread" button will "rewind" you through the dialogue. Love to have your input! Metta, Rob M :-) 50934 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:37am Subject: Re: Doing dana with wisdom? robmoult Hi Cheah (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "khcheah33" wrote: > Hi all, > > I like to relate a "dana encounter" with one Mr Suresh, an Indian > food-stall owner friend of mine during my lunch break yesterday. > Hope this will be of interest to some Dhamma friends. > > > I was taking my lunch there when Mr Suresh walk over to my table (a > very rare free moments of his); & greeted me: "Hi Cheah, how r > you?" > > Suddenly I recalled having 'sold' to Mr Suresh some 'Charity > coupons'{a fund raising event* at Sri Jayanti Buddhist Temple on Aug > 25, 2005, pls see footnote} two months back. > "Hi Suresh, sorry I forgot to remind you of the 'Charity fair' held > last Sunday (Aug 25). If I recall rightly, I did not see you there?" > > Suresh(smiling) : "Mr Cheah, it's OK. I didn't plan to go anyway. I > made a donation(dana) to the temple. So why must I go back to the > temple and take back something?" > > The next instant saw me putting my palms in an //anjali// gesture > and saying "Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu Mr Suresh. May I rejoice in your > good merits too." > > "That's our Buddhist way of saying excellent for a wholesome act > done. May your business prosper." > > Suresh continued : "Thanks. I think it'll be meaningless if I make a > donation & then I want something back in return. Might as well we do > a barter trade. I only wish for good health & happiness." > > {Here, I would say there is Right Understanding accompanied by > wisdom whether prompted or otherwise, but with a tinge of wrong > view - atachment to a self.} > > I feel there was this inner dim light that suddenly shone brightly > in me, admiring this gentleman's good wisdom. May he enjoy the > fruits of his kusala deeds in the immediate future. > > > Contrary to the above, this was the scenario at my office the > morning after the Charity event. > > One of my collegues who missed the fair :"Aiyaaa... I wasted my > coupons lah. No time to go yesterday." Another chipped in : "Me > too. Forgot totally. What a waste." > Maybe 'ignorance'//avijja// is the overriding factor here. > > > Didn't I say that I'm still learning something new about the Dhamma > everyday and who knows the daily learnings (gaining panna) may > somehow give us better grounding in our strive to our final goal, > Nibbana. So we should maintain awareness and mindfulness in our > daily actions. > > Reflecting on the above, this comes to mind : > Didn't our Great Teacher once observed that: `There are uncountable > beings who have much dust in their eyes . . . but still there are > some who have little dust in their eyes . . . ` while contemplating > on 'to whom He should teach the Dhamma in the world'. > > > Maybe the two contrasting 'real-life' examples above could be of > help to my abhidhamma friends who are currently revising the > different classes of akusala & kusala cittas. ===== Last week, just after we met, I taught my regular Sunday morning Abhidhamma class and the topic happened to be Dana (well really it was alobha and I used renunication and dana as the themes). This morning, I read out your message and Nina's reply as they reinforced many of the key points from my class last week. Just wanted to give you a heads up in case people you barely know approach you at the Vihara and talk about this :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 50935 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. bardosein Hi Rob, Nice to meet you! And yes context is so very important. I knew I was missing something. Thanks for filling me in. I will try to use the upthread next time. Better yet, maybe I should wait till I've got a better handle on more of these Abhidhamma concepts and Pali words so I can better understand what I'm reading. lol... Concerning your comments about your son, have you ever read the books by the American psychiatrist Dr. Ian Stevenson? Fascinating stuff. Hal 50936 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:49am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > Swee Boon and I have been discussing accumulations and kamma. Swee > Boon is of the opinion that accumulations do not extend beyond a > single lifetime. I was giving some reasons why I believe that > accumulations extend across lifetimes. It's not that I don't accept accumulations can extend across lifetimes. It certainly can, although much depends on extremely variable conditions! It's just that I don't think accumulations are that important at all in the context of the Dhamma, and therefore should not be accorded the importance that some DSG members attach to it. I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations is a teaching of the Buddha. Regards, Swee Boon 50937 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:57am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations is a > teaching of the Buddha. Correction: I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations extending into future lives is a teaching of the Buddha. Regards, Swee Boon 50938 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... upasaka_howard Hi, Matt - In a message dated 10/2/05 7:36:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Phil), > > I shall respond to all of your questions Howard, despite the fact > that Phil has already replied in similar fashion to some. > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >Dhammas of nama and rupa, arising and falling away, give rise to > >the concept that there is a world and I exist in it. Nama dhammas > >(cita and chetasikas)have characteristics that never change, > >however, what nama experiences gives rise to concepts that will > >vary. > > >Howard:The characteristics of cittas and cetasikas never change, > >you say. I presume you must mean something by this that is > >different, Matt, from what appears on the face of it, because on > >the face of it you seem to be speaking of conditioned dhammas > >that are permanent. > > --------------------------------------------- > > Matt: The characteristics do not change. That is why dosa, lobha > and the other cetasikas can be recognized and known by panna for > their unique characteristics. -------------------------------------- Howard: OK, I understand you. --------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >That nama and rupa arise is not a choice. > > >Howard: Now the fun begins! ;-) It is said that for an arahant who > >has passed on, ncluding the Buddha, no longer does nama or rupa > >arise. That is part and parcel of attaining nibbana. Did the > >Bodhisatta make no choices that led to his complete and final > >awakening, and the ending of (conditioned) experience? (That is to > >say: Did not appropriate choices get made within the mindstream > >that we identify with the Bodhisatta?) > > --------------------------------------------- > > Matt: Choices are concepts that come about because of thinking. The > moments that make up thinking are realities, but there is no one who > thinks. So, where is the person or Bodhisatta who makes choices? --------------------------------------- Howard: I neither spoke of a decider nor implied one. Had I spoken that way, it would be a mere manner of speaking. --------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >That the sense doors arise is not a choice. That chetasikas have > >this or that characteristic is not a choice. That nama experiences > >this or that rupa is not a choice. > > >Howard: However, is there not the choice to *attend* to this or > >that dhamma, and to avoid circumstances in which certain other > >dhammas would arise? Was there no instruction by the Buddha to > >guard the senses? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt:The statement was refering to all the sense doors and mind door > components and functions being in place and there is nothing to be > done to make them come into being or to make them arise or fall away. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The *attending* to this or that dhamma is in part volitional. (The Buddha did speak of right effort.) ------------------------------------------- > > Regarding your comment. Who or what attends to the dhammas or guards > the senses? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Nobody & nothing. There is just the attending and the guarding. You are beating a dead horse, Matt, and all your efforts won't bring it to life for me. ----------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >That concepts about ourselves arise and come into being is not a > >choice. That concepts about the world arise is not a choice. That > >Dhamma is heard or not heard in not a choice. > > >Howard: Is there never a purposeful seeking out of situations > >(such as being on the DSG list) to hear Dhamma? And might not > >devout followers of other religions avoid such hearing > >intentionally? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > >That there is understanding or no understanding of Dhamma is not a > >choice. That concepts arise and think this is me and this is who I > >am is not a choice. That there is thinking this is the right way and > >that is the wrong way is not a choice. And yet there is clinging to > >concepts as this is me, this is who I am, these are my views. > > >Howard: Cannot choices be made that will lead to understanding the > >Dhamma? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: This has been answered above so some questions for you Howard. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it hasn't been answered. And the proper answer is "yes". ----------------------------------------------- > Can choices be made? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. --------------------------------------------- > Who chose to answer this question? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Conventionally speaking, Howard. Actually, no one. ---------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >When young there was clinging to certain views and now when older > >there is clinging to different views. Had nama and rupa conditioned > >different concepts there would be clinging to those ideas now, > >because they are the ideas that are conditioned to arise as > >thinking. And because there is clinging to them there are > >conditions for aversion. > > >Howard: Cannot volitional actions be taken that will lead to less > >clinging? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: Cetasikas can arise, actions can take place and these can be > the conditions for certain results. > Is there a self to be found in cetasikas? Is there a self to be found > in the dhammas that create the concepts of actions and results? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, there is no self. That dead horse has now been beaten to a bloody pulp! ------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >When dhamma moments are not known then there is nothing else but > >stories and the akusala baggage that comes with them. > > >Howard: Did the Buddha not teach volitional means to attend to what > >arises in the moment? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: Insight into the moment is the point being made here. The > Buddha taught what the conditions are for the arising of panna. He > did not teach that there is a self that can make that happen. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I never implied that he did. Geez, Matt!! Why not give this a rest? ;-) --------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >There is lobha for concepts, there is pride because of concepts, > >there is aversion towards others because they have different views > >or they criticize us or our beliefs, there are feelings of being > >hurt, there is regret, there is blame and there are thoughts of > >being sorry. When there is more understanding of the dhamma moments > >which create the story, then there is more understanding that there > >are only dhamma moments with their characteristics and no story. > > >Howard: But you would say that for more understanding of dhamma > >moments to arise there is "not a choice." Is there also no choice to > >take actions that will *lead* to greater understanding? Didn't the > >Buddha teach otherwise? And if not, then did he teach a doctrine > >that is simultaneously pure randomness (as regards action) and at > >the same time rank determinism? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: The Buddha did not say that choice and action does not happen, > but he did say that there is no self that makes the choices or does > the actions. Actions are therefore not pure randomness and there are > far too many conditions for it to be determinism. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, good. We agree. There is choice, there is action, and actions are neither purely random nor do they constitute rank determinism. ------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >There is better understanding that the dhamma moments have only > >their characteristic and there is no self or world or views in them, > >that they fall away and that they do not stay, so they are > >unsatisfactory. > > >Howard: There is better understanding of dhammas and their nature IF > >WHAT? If there is no volition that leads to this, then this comes > >down to saying that understanding will arise if it arises, and, of > >course, it will fail to arise if it fails to arise! And that amounts > >to a big "No kidding!" > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: Of the people who hear Dhamma only a few come to embrace it and > of those only a very few come to have some understand of it and of > those only a very small number will ever get to see the Dhamma as > taught by the Buddha. So, if there is self determined volition, could > we not say that of the few people who come to embrace Dhamma after > hearing it or of the very few who come to have some understanding of > Dhamma after embracing it or of the very small number who get to see > the Dhamma as the Buddha taught it, that "understanding will arise if > it arises, and, of course, it will fail to arise if it fails to > arise"? ----------------------------------------- Howard: I apologize - I don't know what you are saying here. ----------------------------------------- > > Being so, then there is no difference between the two views. . . . > except that one has a self. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Huh? ------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >When there are only concepts about Dhamma, then there are conditions > >for aversion towards others who do not share our beliefs and views. > >When there is insight into the characteristics of dhammas then > >there is mutual understanding of what reality is. > > >Howard: Indeed. But to create a non-quote that is consistent with > >your position, "That wisdom or conditions leading to wisdom arise > >is not a choice!" So, what, then, is the point of all this talk? > >Que sera, sera - for you, for me, for anyone. There are no choices > >to be made. That means there is just good fortune or bad. What a > >great doctrine *that* is! It is not the Buddhadhamma, in my > >estimation. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: Can ignorance choose to have wisdom? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You like questions? Is ignorance an agent that can have or not have other things? But I presume you don't mean that. I presume that your meaning is that immersed in ignorance, there is no way to choose actions that will lead to the dispelling of ignorance, and to this I then I say you are promulgating a doctrine of hopelessness that is very far from the Dhamma, for we DO begin immersed in ignorance. The Buddha taught that we CAN take action and bring about change, and he said that if we could not, he would not have said otherwise. ----------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha started the wheel rolling when he spoke about Dhamma and > brought about the conditions for hearing, leaning and discussing > Dhamma. The conversations we have here are due to many conditions, > the Buddha, the monks who protected the teachings, Dhamma > publications, the internet and those who chose to set up this forum, > etc. These conversations will then be conditions for more Dhamma > talk, reflection, learning and hopefully understanding. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha's path of practice then reduces to conversations! Of course, there is no possibility of choosing even to engage in them according to the no-choosing doctrine. ---------------------------------------------- > > In this way wisdom grows ever so slowly but not because a person with > a certain level of ignorance chooses to have less ignorance (or a > person with a certain level of wisdom chooses to have more wisdom). > > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------- > > >Howard: Getting back to the original statement of Phil's you are > >addressing in this post, Matt, the statement "the problem is mine - > >if there is so much aversion to others' posts and so much greed > >about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a break," this > >answer of yours seems to be there is no possibility for Phil to make > >a choice to decide whether it is better or not to take a break, to > >make a choice to study the matter, to decide what the actual facts > >are, and to adopt a useful plan of action with regard to the facts. > >I don't think that makes sense, Matt. I think that is merely > >avoidence. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Matt: If there is no understanding of what is real then there can be > no understanding of what is not real, and what is not real is then > taken to be real. > > When Phil talks about *the problem is mine*, *aversion to others' > posts*, *much greed about mine being appreciated*, and *taking a > break* he is taking concepts (the stories) to be real. When there is > understanding of the realities that give rise to these concepts then > the stories are not real. > > I think Phil understood that that was the "useful plan of action with > regards to the facts". > > Matt R > > ========================= Matt, I've had this fruitless conversation again, and again, and again on DSG. These repeated conversations almost seem to contradict the lakkhana of anicca, for in them nothing ever changes. We are in strong disagreement on this matter, Matt, and I see no basis for reconciliation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50939 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absolute Peace ... !!! nidive Hi Howard, > Is there not a distinction to be made between nibbana, the > realization of nibbana, and the characteristics of a nibbana- > ealized mind? I think there are distinctions between the three. Nibbana is the remainderless cessation of the five aggregates. This remainderless cessation is a reality, not an unreality. In a worldling, there is uncertainty of knowledge as to whether such a remainderless cessation is possible or not. In an ariyan, there is certainty of knowledge that such a remainderless cessation is indeed possible. This knowledge is the realization of nibbana. Depending on the level of penetration, the nibbana-realized mind has eradicated some or all of the defilements. This eradication of the defilements is the function of the magga-cittas, a conditioned phenomenon. Regards, Swee Boon 50940 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? dacostacharles Hi all, If I am reading the comments in this thread right, "You'll are looking at Right View as a cause for the other path factors (of the 8-fold path) e.g., Right Concentration. Are you presenting the folds of the 8-Fold Path as 8 links in a chain of causation? i.e., Fold 1 causes fold 2, etc.... Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan D. Sent: Thursday, 22 September, 2005 17:17 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? Hello Tep, Swee Boon hasn't written about Right View in this thread -- only some speculation on the relations between Right View and Right Concentration (and, of course, a claim [albeit, ever so slightly veiled] to be an ariyan). Metta, Dan <...> 50941 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 5:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A dacostacharles Hi Tep, To me the Buddhist path(s) are one of discovery, where change is the order of the day. For that reason, I always ask the following questions: "What is this and that?" "Why is it this, or not that?" "Under what conditions is it really that and not this?" And "What are the other effects?" And then there is "I, me, mine, you, yours, and others." This I must not forget, or else I might forget morality and kindness, even attachments (bonds of love and friendship). I am still filled with desire but that is ok because usually I understand why. So when suffering comes, even as hell, it is usually quite purifying. I can also see the Becoming and Dieing of "my" attachments; all this is ok, because it reminds "me" that "I" am just another "human being." For me it is not important to end all suffering, but to understand why (the chain of causes) there is suffering now. So "I" still cry over spilled milk (even if it is from a decade ago); and if "someone" is kind enough to give "me" more, "I" am usually grateful and can laugh at myself for crying (being so attached). Now, this does not mean I will stop crying (That is a personal choice). So, how is it working for me? "I" often struggle because, desire gives rise to emotion and emotion gives rise to desire. Emotion born from feelings, and then there is intellect and memories; oh yes we must not forget sensing; boy thank God for Consciousness, without it I would have no clue as to "where I be." Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta PS: I am feeling some what poetic (why the lengthy response). -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Saturday, 01 October, 2005 01:13 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A Dear Charles D. - Now it is your turn to answer a question. > >Tep: My answer to your question is "it is working better now > > than ever before". > > Charles D. : > Then your sutta understanding is improving! > Tep: I guess so! Do you have a much better way to suggest? <....> 50942 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 5:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: How Does It Happens in 3 Ways ? dacostacharles I liked this so much I want to make DSG repeat it. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, 18 September, 2005 09:40 Subject: [dsg] RE: How Does It Happens in 3 Ways ? Be patient. The tree do not flower and set fruit the same day one plants it! Some nursing time is quite necessary also in the case of awakening... Yet if planted, if the root sets, & if it is properly watered, weeded & fertilized sure is the fruition! Question: Wouldn't contemplation of not-self alone be enough: Yes even all three characteristics are enough in themselves!!! Those who preferentially focuses on impermanence later awakens by the signless release! Those who preferentially focuses on Suffering later awakens by the desireless release! Those who preferentially focuses on No-self later awakens by the void release! *From: *http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic_idx.htm* * *Vimokkha: *'liberation' (deliverance). I. the 3 I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless (or signless) liberation /(animitta-v.),/ 2. the desireless liberation /(apanihita-v.), /3. the emptiness (or void) liberation /(suññatá-v. )./ They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' /(vimokkha-mukha;/ Vis.M. XXI, 66ff), as they are three different approaches to the paths of holiness. - See /visuddhi/ VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathá. 1. "Whosoever being filled with determination /(adhimokkha, /q.v.), considers all formations as impermanent /(anicca), /such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all formations as painful /(dukkha), /such a one attains the desireless liberation. 3. Whosoever being filled with wisdom, considers all formations as without a self /(anattá), /such a one attains the emptiness liberation" (Vis.M. XXI, 70 = Pts.M. II, p. 58). (1) and (2) are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the name of deliverances of mind /(ceto-vimutti/). (2) and (3) appear in Dhs. (344ff, 353ff) in the section on supramundane consciousness. (see Atthasálini Tr., p. 299ff). ========================================== 50943 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absolute Peace ... !!! upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 10/2/05 8:20:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >Is there not a distinction to be made between nibbana, the > >realization of nibbana, and the characteristics of a nibbana- > >ealized mind? > > I think there are distinctions between the three. > > Nibbana is the remainderless cessation of the five aggregates. ------------------------------------------ Howard: If that is so, then nibbana is an event that occurs in time. It arises. But what arises, ceases. So this cannot be what nibbana is. ---------------------------------------- > This > remainderless cessation is a reality, not an unreality. > > In a worldling, there is uncertainty of knowledge as to whether such a > remainderless cessation is possible or not. ------------------------------------- Howard: Nibbana is not an event that is possible or impossible. It does not occur - it IS. ------------------------------------ > > In an ariyan, there is certainty of knowledge that such a > remainderless cessation is indeed possible. -------------------------------------- Howard: Nibbana is not "possible". Nibbana IS. ------------------------------------- > > This knowledge is the realization of nibbana. -------------------------------------- Howard: You are saying that the realization of nibbana is the knowledge that nibbana is "possible". I don't think that is close to correct. Nibbana is not something that occurs. It is not an event that is "possible", and the realization of nibbana is not the knowledge of it being possible. It is path & fruition consciousness that constitutes the realization of nibbana. And realizing nibbana has no effect on nibbana. Dispelling the clouds reveals the sun, but doesn't create it. ------------------------------------- > > Depending on the level of penetration, the nibbana-realized mind has > eradicated some or all of the defilements. This eradication of the > defilements is the function of the magga-cittas, a conditioned > phenomenon. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ======================= With metta, Howard P.S. Swee Boon, I'm taking this opportunity, not directed in particularly to you, my friend, to say that I find myself getting drawn back into too much posting. So I will be pulling back. This will mean in part that I may leave some posts to me unanswered. My apologies in advance to anyone affected by this. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50944 From: "mattroke" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 6:30am Subject: Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... mattroke Hi Howard, >Matt, I've had this fruitless conversation again, and again, and >again on DSG. Matt: That's understandable, most people would disagree with the core members of DSG. ============================ >These repeated conversations almost seem to contradict the lakkhana >of anicca, for in them nothing ever changes. Matt: Difference of opinion could give rise to such a notion. ============================ >We are in strong disagreement on this matter, Matt. Matt: Not a problem Howard, most of the world would think likewise. ============================ >I see no basis for reconciliation. Agreed. Its all about understanding reality not changing others' views. Matt R 50945 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 6:44am Subject: Re: Being one with an object one touches ! buddhatrue Hi Hasituppada, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear Friends > > Being one with the object is certainly not Satori. This type of > thing happens to a meditator, who had been in deep Samadhi, and > stops without allowing the mind to come out of Samadhi. In that > state when he gets up he is still in Samadhi and disappearance of > parts of bodies, and empty sensations are common signs of that. You misunderstand. The experience I quoted and the experience I had didn't occur immediately after meditation. It occurred during everyday life. Metta, James 50946 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: Absolute Peace ... !!! nidive Hi Howard, > > Nibbana is the remainderless cessation of the five aggregates. > > Howard: If that is so, then nibbana is an event that occurs in time. > It arises. But what arises, ceases. So this cannot be what nibbana > is. It is not an event that occurs in time. "Remainderless cessation of the five aggregates" does not mean the "remainderless cessation of Howard's aggregates" or of anyone's aggregates. It means the unequivocal stopping of the process of arising and falling away of the five aggregates without reference to 'anyone' in particular. This unequivocal stopping is true and factual without reference to 'anyone's aggregates. Regards, Swee Boon 50947 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Absolute Peace ... !!! upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 10/2/05 9:48:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > It means the unequivocal stopping of the process of arising and > falling away of the five aggregates without reference to 'anyone' in > particular. > > This unequivocal stopping is true and factual without reference to > 'anyone's aggregates. > ========================== You seem to be talking about a unique set of five aggregates. I' not aware of such. Also, if you are speaking of a stopping of anything, that is an event that occurs in time. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50948 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Absolute Peace ... !!! nidive Hi Howard, > You seem to be talking about a unique set of five aggregates. I'm > not aware of such. Also, if you are speaking of a stopping of > anything, that is an event that occurs in time. I don't think I should continue this discussion anymore. Let's just say, you will know it when you know it. Regards, Swee Boon 50949 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: nama and rupa distinguishable. bardosein Johnathon, >I also don't understand how you can seperate "ignorance" from "right >view" or give priority to one over the other? Correction: I also don't understand how you can seperate "ignorance" from "wrong view" or give priority to one over the other? A curious lapses? Yikes! Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Johnathon (and Howard), > > I did appreciate reading this thread. However, I'm new to this study > group and have so much to learn here. I've only just begun making my > way through Nina's very helpful introductory book that I recently got > in the mail. Please excuse my questions if they are misguided. > > J: "The main 'baddie' is wrong view (rather than ignorance), because > it results in wrong practice, and wrong practice takes one further and > further away from the goal." > > > H: Stated this way, it would seem that "right view" is a necessary > preconditon for undertaking any type of practise whatsoever. How > could one ever begin? I also don't understand how you can > seperate "ignorance" from "right view" or give priority to one over > the other? Besides, isn't the latter a consequent of the former? The > Satipatthana method as outlined and extolled by the Buddha, followed > as prescribed, in the very *embodied* process of the undertaking, > allows for the establishment of conditions whereby (as you said > earlier in the same thread), panna will arise, > "...naturally on occasion and not by dint of > directed effort on our part leads only to better and better > understanding, not to misapprehension of any kind" > > Aren't your remarks about right view quoted above, also prescriptive > in the same way that you consider Howard's remarks "health warnings"? > > Hal 50950 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Hal, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Nice to meet you! And yes context is so very important. I knew I was > missing something. Thanks for filling me in. I will try to use the > upthread next time. Better yet, maybe I should wait till I've got a > better handle on more of these Abhidhamma concepts and Pali words so I > can better understand what I'm reading. lol... ===== My advice is to keep asking questions. There are many people like you who do not have a detailed grasp of Pali terms or Abhidhamma concepts who would benefit from your questions. I promise not to go overboard on jargon in my replies to you :-) ===== > > Concerning your comments about your son, have you ever read the books > by the American psychiatrist Dr. Ian Stevenson? Fascinating stuff. ===== Sorry, have not read this book. Perhaps a very brief synopsis? Metta, Rob M :-) 50951 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:22am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations is a > > teaching of the Buddha. > > Correction: I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations > extending into future lives is a teaching of the Buddha. ===== There are many Suttas where monks go to the Buddha and ask "why is this person like this..." and the Buddha replies, "in a previous life, ...". Rob K recently gave three examples in a post to me (a crow, a captain's wife and a group of monks trapped in a cave). Metta, Rob M :-) 50952 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:33am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. robmoult Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > There is also a Sutta where Sariputta approaches the Buddha because > > one of Sariputta's students is not progressing with his meditation. > > The Buddha asks, "what meditation object did you give?" Sariputta > > answered, "The man is young so I gave foulness of the body to break > > attachment to youth". Buddha answered, "For five previous lifetimes, > > this person has been a goldsmith. He is used to looking at beautiful > > things. Tell him to meditate on a golden lotus." In other words, the > > accumulations from previous lives was important (more important than > > the current life). > > I think this is an example that is an exception rather than the norm. > > I don't think the Buddha gave specific meditation instructions for all > bhikkhus. > > If this is really crucial, then there isn't any hope for attaining > superhuman states in this day and age. > ===== It is definitely the exception rather than the rule. The Buddha did not give meditation subjects to many bhikkhus. The Visuddhimagga discusses carita (temperament) and suggests meditation objects for various temperaments. This is also covered in the earlier Vimuttimagga and Chapter 9 of the Abhidhamattha Sangaha. In general, the advice from the Visuddhimagga is to approach a "good friend" to assign a meditation object. Metta, Rob M :-) 50953 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Absolute Peace ... !!! upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 10/2/05 10:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >You seem to be talking about a unique set of five aggregates. I'm > >not aware of such. Also, if you are speaking of a stopping of > >anything, that is an event that occurs in time. > > I don't think I should continue this discussion anymore. > > Let's just say, you will know it when you know it. ------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. :-) ---------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50954 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: Htoo: Is the path difficult? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html > > Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > > Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > > Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. > > Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream- entry. > > [SN LV.5] > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How did "Association with people of integrity" as a factor for stream- > entry became "Pubbekata Punnata - Wholesome ACCUMULATIONs from past > lives"? > > My head is spinning! > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Swee Boon, Robert K and all, > > Bravo! I do not know who twist dhamma. But I did not still find any > flaws when Swee boon said these. > > +++++++++++++ Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, One of the conditions to hear Dhamma in this life is that one has pubbekata punnata from past lives. It is not by chance that one has the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. And once it is heard whether wise attention will arise also is conditioned by punna from the past (this life and past lives). Some people hear Dhamma and misunderstand, they take a wrong path. The Paramatthadipani nama Undanatthakatha (trans. masefield p32) Enlightenment chapter: the note on page 168 (note 225) says: "Svpt[Digha-tika]simply states that paying methodical attention[ayoniso manisikara] is the FRUITION of proper development of self and the fact that one has PREVIOUSLY performed merit" Robertk 50955 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 10:46am Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6./ Control of Asubha Bhavana? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - >Nina: please would you keep your letter in your files? Then we can > have an exchange about it when I have returned. >I wonder, could you think of another term instead of formal meditation, >meanwhile? Sure, I'd be happy to do that. The mentioning of formal meditation in my earlier post, however, does not relate to Vangisa Sutta. The emphasis on abandoning sakkaaya-ditthi by the Buddha in S.N. I, Ch 3, A Sword (B.B. translation, p. 100) is , perhaps, because it is generally more important than abandoning lust (lust is on and off, but identity views are there all the time). However, lust was the most urgent thing in the young Vangisa's mind at that moment so he asked the Venerable Ananda for help. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > please would you keep your letter in your files? Then we can have an > exchange about it when I have returned. 50956 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles D.- I think I've seen two important things being mentioned in your post : there is a "personal choice" in applying the Dhamma, and that the "I" often struggles. They tell me clearly enough that you know what you are doing and why. This is a part of what I call "making progress". However, you may make progress by moving ahead on the same level instead of moving up to the next level. Can you tell which is it in your case? Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > So, how is it working for me? "I" often struggle because, desire gives rise to emotion and emotion gives rise to desire. Emotion born from feelings, and then there is intellect and memories; oh yes we must not forget sensing; boy thank God for Consciousness, without it I would have no clue as to "where I be." > 50957 From: nina Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:10am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 50958 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: (Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 (2nd session) 3 htootintnaing Continue: Sukin: 6. Not having eradicated self-view, is no excuse to "do" anything with `self'. You should not underestimate the importance of pariyatti. If on the pariyatti level, it says that there is no self, then one is simply following a *wrong theory* when one states to the effect that, "since we are not sotapannas, we must still practice with self". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not mean that. But self-view is only eradicated at sotapatti magga kaala. I did not mean to practise with self. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: The underlying annusaya may still be there, but it does not manifest most of the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Anusaya is not our business. It is the business of respective magga naana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: In fact when pariyatti level of understanding is conditioned to arise, at that ..snip..weak level. So ask yourself, if the idea that one should sit down to mediate and/or go on a retreat is in line with correct pariyatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have asked myself many times. The answer that arise in my mind is the same. One should diligently follow the Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 7. Too much stress on Panna. Can there ever be too much stress on panna? Bhavana is necessarily with panna isn't it? And isn't the whole idea of studying the teachings is to grow in understanding? And what is satipatthana if not the development of "panna"? Sati has the same paramattha dhamma as object; the difference is in the panna which understands better and better the different characteristics and conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But panna does not arise all the time when the Path is being followed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 8. Fear of Self. Is identifying `self' and subsequently not encouraging it rooted in fear? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But it sounds like fear of self not to do satipatthaana at retreats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Not wishing to meditate is not from fear that `self' will arise when one does so, but rather the perception that the very idea of meditating is conditioned by self-view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is exactly 'fear of self-view'. Self-view is only eradicated by sotapatti magga naana. It is the business of sotapatti magga naana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 9. No Self who keeps precepts. Keeping precept is ultimately the function of paramattha dhammas. If one thinks that this is due to a decision made and followed upon by one, then this is believing in the illusion of self and control. And when one comes from this position, then it is understandable that others who speak strongly against the idea of self and control, will be perceived as being `careless'. But paramattha dhammas roll on, while one is concerned about making a choice to keep precepts, satipatthana may not be one of those dhammas. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 10. "Conditions", is this used in the same sense as "God" idea? There can be understanding of realities `now', and this is the same as understanding better about conditions. On the other hand, "God" is and forever will be an idea only. Why do you assume that when I appeal to `conditions', that this is only a philosophical idea? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just a manifestation of believing in God unexpressively. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 11. Knowing moment to moment realties. When I talk about knowing moment to moment realities, it is not saying that each citta is observed or should be. There may not even be any sati for days. The idea is to understand the citta does arise and fall the way they do, each being conditioned by object and other conditions. That it is same here as it is there. Therefore thinking in terms of better place and time is to be placing oneself to not have sati at any time at all. Yet the potential is there for realities to be known at all times. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is almost impossible to know 'citta by citta' or 'ciita after citta' or 'moment to moment' realities. I do not think even arahats know each and every citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 12. Wherever we are, it is by conditions. We may be living in Thailand or Burma, or Iraq or Afghanistan. We may be married with family responsibilities or we may be single and without any burden. We may be a prostitute or a teacher. Our surroundings may consist of people shouting and demanding things from us or we may be living with a peaceful and understanding person. Whatever it is, we are where we are, by force of conditions. At any given moment, there is no saying that sati of any level can arise, provided that we have heard and correctly understood the teachings. Some may have the luxury to go on a retreat and some may not. Both however *need* to understand conditioned realities as conditioned realties whatever those are and wherever. The idea of another time and place only adds to the confusion, since realties are realities, whether here or there. And insisting on the value of retreats as against any other place, does not help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)). I think you and DSGs hate 'the idea of specific place and time'. But whatever you are saying The Buddha teachings say 'ara~n~na gato vaa, rukkhamula gato vaa, su~n~nagaara gato vaa'. The Buddha did say this. The Buddha never say 'unfruitful speech'. How do you think? PS: See Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 16. Destruction of Sasana. Finally, not promoting retreats is no indication of the destruction of the Sasana. The deterioration of the Sasana is proportional to Teachings being wrongly understood. If the pariyatti is wrong, then patipatti is also wrong. As stated above, I think the idea of meditation/retreat is consequence of wrong view. So in fact the popularity, within the age group ranging between 7 and 100, for the idea of retreat and meditation, may be the very sign of the Sasana becoming other than what it was meant to be. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. This is not. Have you asked anyone? Any professor, any Dhamma-lecturers? I think you are destroying. Because you seem to be saying 'people, you do not go to retreat. The idea of going there is not good.' If people follow your advice then there will be no one at retreats and there will be fewer and fewer people following the Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: My time for DSG becomes less and less, so I may decide not to continue with our discussions, hope you don't mind. --------------------- Htoo: More than happy, Sukin. My time is substantially reduced as you can see right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Besides I prefer to read, and I am way behind in my reading, even after choosing not to read several posts. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me, I do 1. su 2. ci 3. pu 4. bhaa 5. vi 6. li 7. si 8. dhaa :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 50959 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: Htoo: Is the path difficult? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- - > -- > > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html > > > > Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > > > > Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > > > > Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. > > > > Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream- > entry. > > > > [SN LV.5] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > > > How did "Association with people of integrity" as a factor for > stream- > > entry became "Pubbekata Punnata - Wholesome ACCUMULATIONs from > past > > lives"? > > > > My head is spinning! > > > > Regards, > > Swee Boon > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > Dear Swee Boon, Robert K and all, > > > > Bravo! I do not know who twist dhamma. But I did not still find > any > > flaws when Swee boon said these. > > > > +++++++++++++ > Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, > One of the conditions to hear Dhamma in this life is that one has > pubbekata punnata from past lives. It is not by chance that one has > the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. > And once it is heard whether wise attention will arise also is > conditioned by punna from the past (this life and past lives). Some > people hear Dhamma and misunderstand, they take a wrong path. > > The Paramatthadipani nama Undanatthakatha (trans. masefield p32) > Enlightenment chapter: > > the note on page 168 (note 225) says: > "Svpt[Digha-tika]simply states that paying methodical > attention[ayoniso manisikara] is the FRUITION of proper > development of self and the fact that one has PREVIOUSLY > performed merit" > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, You are always good. I read at triplegem that you and Swee Boon were not at the same wave length. Swee Boon stopped at triplegem for long time ago. With respect, Htoo Naing 50960 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:44am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6./ Control of Asubha Bhavana? buddhatrue Hi Tep and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Nina and James - > > I found the following comments of yours worth discussing. > > SN VIII.4, Ananda Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn08- > 004.html#vangisa > > [ Vangisa: ] > > With sensual lust I burn. My mind is on fire. > Please, Gotama, from compassion, tell me how to put it out. > > [Ven. Ananda:] > > From distorted perception your mind is on fire. > Shun the theme of the beautiful accompanied by lust. > See mental fabrications as other, as stress, & not-self. > Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. > > Develop the mind -- well-centered & one -- in the foul, through the foul. > Have your mindfulness immersed in the body. > Be one who pursues disenchantment. Develop the theme-less. > Cast out conceit. Then, from breaking through conceit, > you will go on your way at peace. [endquote] > > > Regards, > > > Tep I really want to express my appreciation toward your post and research, but I feel somewhat shy about it. I don't like to toot my own horn too much, so to speak. But really, I am so grateful to you for your intelligent and researched efforts to prove my point!! You validate me and you validate Nina- by providing an intelligent audience. Thank you again and I look forward to the continued discussion when Nina returns from India. Metta, James 50961 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absolute Peace ... !!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (Ven. Samahita, Swee) - >Howard: It seems to me that nibbana is a reality, perhaps *the* reality, >and one which is describable only in terms of what it is not, much as >you do whenyou say that it is "Not a place, not an idea, not a >deception, not a conceit,not a conception.. Tep: Of course, since Nibbana is one of the four ultimate realities, it must be a reality. But, Nibbana is also describable in terms of what it is. 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.' [viraaga sanna] But Nibbana is not a perception. >Howard (asking Ven. Samahita): Is it not actually the *realization* of nibbana (spiritual awakening), that arises, but not nibbana itself, and does not that mean that the absences you list are not characteristics of nibbana, which is an ultimate, unconditioned, conceptually indescribable, timeless reality, but, rather, of a mind that has awakened to nibbana? Tep: Nibbana is the only reality that does neither arise nor passes away. According to Nyanatiloka, viraaga is a name for Nibbana. " viraga : 'fading away', detachment; absence of lust, dispassionateness. Appears frequently together with nirodha, 'cessation' . (1) as a name for Nibbaana, (2) in the contemplations (a) forming the 4th tetrad in the exercises in mindfulness of breathing, (b) of the 18 principal insights (No. 5). [endquote] Tep: Since mind is citta plus cetasika, a "mind that has awakened" is still citta with cetasika. Is it not? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Bhikkhu Samahita - > (snipped) > Bhante, what, as you understand it, is the difference, then, between bodhi and nibbana? Is there not a distinction to be made between nibbana, the realization of nibbana, and the characteristics of a nibbana-realized mind? > In a worldling there are uncertainty, great doubt, confusion, delusion & ignorance, and there are greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, much hunger and pull, because the worldling has not, in any degree, realized nibbana. Now if nibbana is a "state" characterized by the absence of all these conditions, > for a worldling nibbana is non-existent! And should a worldling at some point become an ariyan and finally an arahant, will this "state" of nibbana then *arise*? If yes, then it would seem that nibbana is a conditioned phenomenon that arises.That, of course, is untenable. Is it not actually the *realization* of nibbana (spiritual awakening), that arises, but not nibbana itself, and does not that mean that the absences you list are not characteristics of nibbana, which is an ultimate, unconditioned, conceptually indescribable, timeless > reality, but, rather, of a mind that has awakened to nibbana? 50962 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wheel 331/333 nilovg Hi Larry and Sarah, the nimitta arises in as far as the citta that experiences it with concentration arises. This must be in figurative sense. It is a 'mere mode of appearance'. Nina. op 02-10-2005 02:36 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > I couldn't find anything unambiguous but I did fine one instance where > Buddhaghosa _appears_ to say that a counterpart sign is not "stamped > with the three characteristics". However, in the same paragraph he also > says this sign is "born" and "arises": > > Vism.IV,31: The difference between the earlier learning sign and the > counterpart sign is this. .... For it is born > only of perception in one who has obtained concentration, being a mere > mode of appearance. But as soon as it arises the hindrances are quite > suppressed, 50963 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo: Is the path difficult? nilovg Hi Rob K, I looked up the text. This is well worth considering. Someone may wonder about the right conditions for the development of paññaa, or he may feel rather in despair. This is encouraging, we are listening, paying attention. It is conditioned by past puññaa that there is an opportunity to still be able to hear true Dhamma and have wise attention to it. Nina. op 02-10-2005 16:39 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: > One of the conditions to hear Dhamma in this life is that one has > pubbekata punnata from past lives. It is not by chance that one has > the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. > And once it is heard whether wise attention will arise also is > conditioned by punna from the past (this life and past lives). Some > people hear Dhamma and misunderstand, they take a wrong path. > > The Paramatthadipani nama Undanatthakatha (trans. masefield p32) > Enlightenment chapter: > > the note on page 168 (note 225) says: > "Svpt[Digha-tika]simply states that paying methodical > attention[ayoniso manisikara] is the FRUITION of proper > development of self and the fact that one has PREVIOUSLY > performed merit" 50964 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) nilovg Hi Hal, op 02-10-2005 12:22 schreef Hal op halwilson@...: > Thanks for your reply. In terms of the cetasikas, could we say that > the level of "conceit" _could_ be the same, but because certain > defilements have been extinguished by the noble disciple, they will > not arise in tandem with it? Wouldn't the established presence of > wholesome mental factors also check its proliferation? ------ N: It is hard to pinpoint. As you know for the noble disciples there is no wrong view, no stinginess, no jealousy. The strength of conceit would be different for different individuals. I can arise also on account of vipaaka, of seeing. of hearing etc. It can arise on account of any of the sense objects. But the non-retuner has eradicated attachment to sense objects, thus for him no conceit on account of sense objects. Conceit arises with attachment. The sakadagami has diminuated attachment to sense objects, thus also less conceit on account of these. But the main thing is that the noble disciple's paññaa is strong and can investigate all such moments. For the noble disciple sati and pañnna have become powers, balas. They can arise in any situation at any time. -------- H: In this way, > could we say _mana_ , although it may arise to the same 'degree' as > in a worldling, its occurrence would "not condition evil speech or > action [and thought]"? ----- N: I do not think in the same degree as in the worldling. For the reasons given above. Nina. 50965 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6./ Control of Asubha Bhavana? buddhistmedi... Hi, James - >James: > I really want to express my appreciation toward your post and > research, but I feel somewhat shy about it. I don't like to toot my > own horn too much, so to speak. But really, I am so grateful to you > for your intelligent and researched efforts to prove my point!! You > validate me and you validate Nina- by providing an intelligent > audience. Thank you again and I look forward to the continued > discussion when Nina returns from India. > Tep: Thank you very much for being James who has no pretense. When you say that something is true, everybody knows that you truly believe so. This is a reputation you have gained from consistently being truthful and unbiased. Yes, my quoted sutta solidly proves your point and adds more weight to your credibility. And because of that I am glad. Respectfully, Tep ====== 50966 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:20pm Subject: Re: Htoo: Is the path difficult? buddhatrue Hi Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Some > people hear Dhamma and misunderstand, they take a wrong path. Yeah, like K. Sujin and her adherents!!!! ;-)) Metta, James ps. My message is said in jest. 50967 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:29pm Subject: Re: (Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 (2nd session) 3 buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Continue: > > Sukin: > > 6. Not having eradicated self-view, is no excuse to "do" anything > with `self'. > > You should not underestimate the importance of pariyatti. If on the > pariyatti level, it says that there is no self, then one is simply > following a *wrong theory* when one states to the effect that, "since > we are not sotapannas, we must still practice with self". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: I do not mean that. But self-view is only eradicated at > sotapatti magga kaala. I did not mean to practise with self. James: Well, I say that one must practice with self!! There is no other way. Even a math professor moving from simple intergers to complex calculations must start with the basics. The Buddha was no different in his approach. Start with the self and then gradually move to the non-self. What's the big deal? Just get over it and start practicing!! ;-)) Metta, James 50968 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 0:52pm Subject: Re: Satori? onco111 Hi Howard, I pursue this point because my impression is that in seeing sankata dhammas, the tilakkhana are seen. It may be that the awareness is weak so that the vision appears blurred and the experience is described elsewise. Or it may be stronger, so that one characteristic is noted more clearly (e.g., the moment(s) may scream "anatta"), and, in retrospect, the description brings in another of the two (e.g., an experience of "the ground slipping out from under my feet" might sometimes scream "anicca" rather than "anatta"). The awareness of the third ("dukkha", in this case) might be so faint that it is virtually unrecognized, but not entirely. The mind still responds to dukkha in its usual way with aversion (e.g., fear). Or, with stronger awareness, the dukkha may be recognized simply as a characteristic a la "the formations appear terrifying" -- no reaction with dosa/akusala fear, but deep recognition that the sankhata dhammas are dukkha. Metta, Dan > > Was it an honest-to-goodness dosa/akusala fear? > > > > Dan > > > ======================== > I find it interesting that you are pursuing this point, Dan. Is there > a particular reason or just interest? > To answer your question: Yes, it was honest-to-goodness fear. It was > outright terror, in fact. Despite that fact, it was transformative as regards > establishing a strong and continuing no-self conviction. > > With metta, > Howard 50969 From: cosmique Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 1:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Digest Number 2975 cosmique1000 Dear Bhante Samahita (and Dhamma friends), Thanks for your inspiring postings. Let me ask you a question regarding this one? Is “disgust” the most adequate and correct translation of its Pali counterpart (If my memory serves me well, it is “nibbida”, isn’t it)? Doesn’t the word “disgust” have a negative tinge, like the word “aversion”, which is a hindrance for meditators? As a matter of fact, aversion and disgust are synonyms. Can there be any alternative translations of this word? Thanks in advance for your reply, With mahametta, Cosmique Message: 7 Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:49:53 +0600 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Subject: Released by Disgust ... !!! Friends: Disgust evaporates Greed: Absence of Greed is Freedom! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, for a clansman who has gone forth out of faith in my Teaching, to do this, is in accordance with this supreme Dhamma: He should dwell contemplating the impermanence, inherent in any form... He should dwell contemplating the suffering, inherent in any form... He should dwell contemplating the impersonality, inherent in any form... He should dwell absorbed in disgust towards any form, towards feeling... towards perception, mental constructions, & towards any consciousness... One who dwells immersed in revulsion towards any form, towards feeling, towards perception, any mental construction, & towards any consciousness, fully understands all forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, & consciousnesses. One who fully understands forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, and consciousness is freed from forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, and consciousness! I tell you: He is freed from birth, ageing, and death !!! Freed from sorrow, weeping, pain, discontent, & desperate despair !!! I say: He is freed from all Suffering... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:146-9 III 179-80 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 50970 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 2:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A dacostacharles Hi Tep, For now, levels are relative, progress is relative -- the important thing is the present -- I live day to day. Here, progress is things like: when my wife can look at me and appreciate her love for me; and when my 4 year old daughter accepts my advice (i.e., thinks about it, then agrees, and acts accordingly). To me Progress would be that morality, wisdom, and concentration remains with full awareness always -- even when greed, hate, delusion, any other unpleasant emotion, or unknowing arises. Thereby, none of "my" thoughts, words, or acts gives rise to a karma "I" don't want or can't handle. In other words: When there is senseless/useless clinging the "I" lets go; when there is strong desire and no fulfillment, the "I" doesn't drown in anger or depression; when there is strong desire with fulfillment, the "I" doesn't fall prey to greed, craving, and aggression; when there are delusions and ignorance, soon the "I" sees through and uncovers truth; and when the "I" is born, it accepts that death is just around the corner or down the road apiece, so it lives on. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta PS: the same level; when I am close to 80 "I" will progress to become a non returner, Arhant or Buddhassattva. See ya next week -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Sunday, 02 October, 2005 20:09 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A Hi, Charles D.- I think I've seen two important things being mentioned in your post : there is a "personal choice" in applying the Dhamma, and that the "I" often struggles. They tell me clearly enough that you know what you are doing and why. This is a part of what I call "making progress". However, you may make progress by moving ahead on the same level instead of moving up to the next level. Can you tell which is it in your case? <....> 50971 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: BB-CMA reprint sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, Good timing! I just received this note from Ven Bodhi: ************ Dear Sarah, Thanks for sending me Rob M's useful list of corrections. These are different from the corrections that I received from Ven. U Silananda's supporter in Singapore. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ven Bodhi, > > A member of DSG, Rob M, has suggested I bring this list of corrections > by > Ven U Silananda to your attention just in case you don't have any of > them. > He sent them to us before in this letter: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15720 50972 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wheel 331/333 lbidd2 Nina: "Hi Larry and Sarah, the nimitta arises in as far as the citta that experiences it with concentration arises. This must be in figurative sense. It is a 'mere mode of appearance'. Nina. op 02-10-2005 02:36 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: I couldn't find anything unambiguous but I did find one instance where Buddhaghosa _appears_ to say that a counterpart sign is not "stamped with the three characteristics". However, in the same paragraph he also says this sign is "born" and "arises": Vism.IV,31: The difference between the earlier learning sign and the counterpart sign is this. .... For it is born only of perception in one who has obtained concentration, being a mere mode of appearance. But as soon as it arises the hindrances are quite suppressed," Hi Nina and Sarah, I know you may not be able to respond to this, but I've been thinking about it today and here are my thoughts: It seems to me, with no textual support, that signs are real. I don't know if I want to say sign (nimitta)=perception (sa~n~naa), but maybe. Within "sign" I would include words and ideas. But some signs have no real referent, e.g., "I", "me", "mine". A non-real referent couldn't arise, so therefore isn't impermanent. A counterpart sign would be one of those signs that has no real referent. The sign of a presently arising reality has a real referent. Do we want to say that _only_ the sign of a presently arising reality has a real referent? If so, then "rupa" as a general idea has no real referent. Furthermore, since only pa~n~naa correctly understands a presently arising reality, do we want to say that only a sign that arises with pa~n~naa has a real referent? If I see colours and identify them as a chariot that sign (idea) of chariot has no real referent even though the colours are real. If that is the case, then the sign of the object of desire has no real referent because it is not perceived with pa~n~naa (insight). No need to respond if you agree. Larry 50973 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M’s Problem Reply Part II robmoult Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Rob M, > we formerly had a conversation on this subject and I referred to texts in > the Book of Analysis, The Path of Discrimination, the Patthana, under > anantara paccaya. I mentioned that we have to pay attention to the meanings > of mano-viññaana dhaatu and manu-dhaatu, and remember what types of cittas > are included. > I just see it on P..115, 116. of the Book of Analysis, under Analysis of > Elements, Ch 3, even bhavangacitta is implied. the first advertance in a > process is mentioned. > Thus, the cittas arising in processes are implied, but they are worked out > with more detail in the commentaries. > Maybe you can retrieve these posts under: process cittas? > I do not have time now, since I am leaving for India next week. > Nina. > op 27-09-2005 03:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > The seventeen thought moments as laid out in the Abhidhammattha > > Sangaha does not conflict with the Suttas. Nevertheless, attributing > > the idea of the precise ordered sequence of seventeen thought moments > > to the Buddha is not correct. At least in my opinion. I would welcome > > it if somebody could point me to a Sutta reference (or an Abhidhamma > > reference) which describes this precise ordered sequence of seventeen > > thought moments. ===== Thank you for your patience with me. I found additional references in the Vibhanga p244-245 as well. There is tighter linkage between the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and the original Abhidhamma texts than I had previously thought. Enjoy your trip to India! Metta, Rob M :-) 50974 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Absolute Peace ... !!! upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 10/2/05 2:56:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Tep: Since mind is citta plus cetasika, a "mind that has awakened" is > still citta with cetasika. Is it not? > ====================== Yes - to the extent that the citta + cetasika framework is a description adequate to reality. I personally believe that no description of the way things are is adequate, but mere proverbial fingers pointing to the proverbial moon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50975 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) bardosein Hi Nina (and all), From Nyanatolika's _Buddhist Dictionary_, quoting the Anguttara Nikaya ( VI, 49 ) lists three types of conceit: "The (equality-) conceit (mana), the inferiority-conceit (omana) and the superiority-conceit (atimana); this threefold conceit should be overcome. For, after overcoming this threefold conceit, the monk, through full penetration of conceit, is said to have put an end to suffering." Hal: I believe somewhere in the Abhidhamma (or in the Suttas) there is another distinction made between these unwholesome forms of conceit and another considered to be wholesome, insofar as it has the quality of being the diminishment of conceit. Do you know where I can find this discussed? From the Abhidhammattaha Sangha (II: 13 pp.95-96) 13 "(iv) Conceit is found in four types of (greed rooted) consciousness dissociated from wrong view" The Guide states: "Both of these factors [wrong view and conceit] are found only in the cittas rooted in greed, for they involve some degree of holding to the five aggregates. However, the two exhibit contrary qualities, and thus they cannot coexist in the same citta. Wrong view occurs in the mode of misapprehending, i.e. interpreting things in a manner contrary to actuality; conceit occurs in the mode of self-evaluation, i.e. of taking oneself to be superior, equal, or inferior to others. Whereas wrong view is necessarily present in the four cittas rooted in greed accompanied by wrong view, conceit is not a necessary concomitant of the four greed-rooted cittas, dissociated from wrong view. It does not arise apart from the cittas, but these cittas can occur without conceit." Hal: I find it difficult to understand how conceit does not also involve a "mode of misapprehending." Doesn't the notion "I am" arise with wrong view? How can conceit be "dissociated with it"? Without the misapprehension "I am" how can conceit occur? Could we say that the guide is making a distinction between cognitive awareness and affective mental states, conceit being an affective mode, and wrong view being a cognitive one? (Please excuse my lame typing). Hal ____________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 50976 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 10/2/05 3:53:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I pursue this point because my impression is that in seeing sankata > dhammas, the tilakkhana are seen. -------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. ------------------------------------- It may be that the awareness is weak > > so that the vision appears blurred and the experience is described > elsewise. Or it may be stronger, so that one characteristic is noted > more clearly (e.g., the moment(s) may scream "anatta"), and, in > retrospect, the description brings in another of the two (e.g., an > experience of "the ground slipping out from under my feet" might > sometimes scream "anicca" rather than "anatta"). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, it was an anatta-dominated experience, with little apprehension of anicca. ---------------------------------------- The awareness of the > > third ("dukkha", in this case) might be so faint that it is virtually > unrecognized, but not entirely. The mind still responds to dukkha in > its usual way with aversion (e.g., fear). ---------------------------------------- Howard: The fear was the fear of being released from one's prison cell, when that cell has been all one has known for a long, long time. Often, a woeful but familiar circumstance is welcomed over a vastly better but strange one. The horror at being released, adrift on an unknown sea or plunged into a bottomless abyss, is quite overwhelming unless a layer of calm has been set in place. This is why the jhanas are so important I believe. ------------------------------------------- Or, with stronger awareness, > > the dukkha may be recognized simply as a characteristic a la "the > formations appear terrifying" -- no reaction with dosa/akusala fear, > but deep recognition that the sankhata dhammas are dukkha. > > Metta, > > Dan ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50977 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 7:53pm Subject: Re: Htoo: Is the path difficult? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K., > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Some > > people hear Dhamma and misunderstand, they take a wrong path. > > > > Yeah, like K. Sujin and her adherents!!!! ;-)) > > Metta, > James > > ps. My message is said in jest. Lol. rob 50978 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 8:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles (and all) - > Charles D. : > For now, levels are relative, progress is relative -- the important thing is > the present -- ... ... ... > To me Progress would be that morality, wisdom, and concentration >remains with full awareness always -- even when greed, hate, >delusion, any other unpleasant emotion, or unknowing arises. >Thereby, none of "my" thoughts, words, or acts gives rise to a karma > "I" don't want or can't handle. > Tep: Thank you for elaborating "atta" in a simple way. Below is an excerpt from an online article about upadana and atta. I hope you find it useful. Does "I" exist because of holding a belief in 'self'? Upadana & Atta ------------------------ "The fundamental upádána or 'holding' is attaváda (see Majjhima ii,1 ), which is holding a belief in 'self'. The puthujjana takes what appears to be his 'self' at its face value; and so long as this goes on he continues to be a 'self', at least in his own eyes (and in those of others like him). This is bhava or 'being'. The puthujjana knows that people are born and die; and since he thinks 'my self exists' so he also thinks 'my self was born' and 'my self will die'. The puthujjana sees a 'self' to whom the words birth and death apply. " In contrast to the puthujjana, the arahat has altogether got rid of asmimána (not to speak of attaváda -- see MAMA), and does not even think 'I am'. This is bhavanirodha, cessation of being. And since he does not think 'I am' he also does not think 'I was born' or 'I shall die'. In other words, he sees no 'self' or even 'I' for the words birth and death to apply to. This is játinirodha and jarámarananirodha. (See, in Kosala Samy. i,3 , how the words birth and death are avoided when the arahat is spoken of. ' For one who is born, lord, is there anything other than ageing-&- death?' 'For one who is born, great king, there is nothing other than ageing-&- death. Those, great king, who are wealthy warriors... wealthy divines... wealthy householders..., -- for them, too, being born, there is nothing other than ageing-&-death. Those monks, great king, who are worthy ones, destroyers of the cankers..., -- for them, too, it is the nature of this body to break up, to be laid down. ' "The puthujjana, taking his apparent 'self' at face value, does not see that he is a victim of upádána; he does not see that 'being a self' depends upon 'holding a belief in self' (upádánapaccayá bhavo); and he does not see that birth and death depend upon his 'being a self' (bhavapaccayá játi, and so on). The ariyasávaka, on the other hand, does see these things, and he sees also their cessation (even though he may not yet have fully realized it); and his seeing of these things is direct. Quite clearly, the idea of re-birth is totally irrelevant here. http://metta.lk/mirror/www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps2.htm Question: Is the above writing about 'self' compatible with the view of most DSG members, or not? Sincerely, Tep ============== 50979 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 9:30pm Subject: Perceptions of events of the historical Buddha antony272b2 Dear Group, I have built up a rather comfortable image of the Buddha from the Pali Canon, ignoring the Mahayana and Vajrayana sutras which have the historical Buddha doing all sorts of other things (including in Vajrayana sutras sexual intercourse according to a Zen scholar). It is disturbing to think that these contradictions are such that groups of people in either Theravada or the other schools (or myself right now!) must have had collective auditory hallucinations ("Thus I have heard") (I don't think that without modern communications any individual could deliberately invent discourses of Shakyamuni Buddha and also be able to persuade the large group of people preserving the discourses to add them). Is it in the nature of reality that traditions separated by space and time will have different perceptions of events 2,600 years ago? (I have read that mystics find themselves in the same ocean as schizophrenics and the mystics swim and the schizophrenics drown). Thanks / Antony. 50980 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 9:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) robmoult Hi Hal, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Nina (and all), > > From Nyanatolika's _Buddhist Dictionary_, quoting the Anguttara > Nikaya ( VI, 49 ) lists three types of conceit: > > "The (equality-) conceit (mana), the inferiority-conceit (omana) and > the superiority-conceit (atimana); this threefold conceit should be > overcome. For, after overcoming this threefold conceit, the monk, > through full penetration of conceit, is said to have put an end to > suffering." > > Hal: I believe somewhere in the Abhidhamma (or in the Suttas) there > is another distinction made between these unwholesome forms of > conceit and another considered to be wholesome, insofar as it has the > quality of being the diminishment of conceit. Do you know where I > can find this discussed? > ===== I am not aware of any Sutta where there is a wholesome version of conceit. I am quite sure that it doesn't happen in the Abhidhamma where conceit is specific to unwholesome mental states. ===== > From the Abhidhammattaha Sangha (II: 13 pp.95-96) > > 13 "(iv) Conceit is found in four types of (greed rooted) > consciousness dissociated from wrong view" > > The Guide states: > > "Both of these factors [wrong view and conceit] are found only in the > cittas rooted in greed, for they involve some degree of holding to > the five aggregates. However, the two exhibit contrary qualities, and > thus they cannot coexist in the same citta. Wrong view occurs in the > mode of misapprehending, i.e. interpreting things in a manner > contrary to actuality; conceit occurs in the mode of self- evaluation, > i.e. of taking oneself to be superior, equal, or inferior to others. > Whereas wrong view is necessarily present in the four cittas rooted > in greed accompanied by wrong view, conceit is not a necessary > concomitant of the four greed-rooted cittas, dissociated from wrong > view. It does not arise apart from the cittas, but these cittas can > occur without conceit." > > Hal: I find it difficult to understand how conceit does not also > involve a "mode of misapprehending." Doesn't the notion "I am" arise > with wrong view? How can conceit be "dissociated with it"? Without > the misapprehension "I am" how can conceit occur? Could we say that > the guide is making a distinction between cognitive awareness and > affective mental states, conceit being an affective mode, and wrong > view being a cognitive one? (Please excuse my lame typing). > ===== Excellent question! The commentary says that conceit (mana) and wrong view (ditthi) are like two lions that cannot share the same cave. It does not give any explanation of why they cannot co-exist. The best reason that I can come up with that mana and ditthi cannot arise at the same time is: - The nature of mana is to compare, and comparison requires a separating of "I" from "others" ("I am strong" implies that there are others who are not strong) - The nature of ditthi is to generalize ("... is the nature of kamma", "... is the nature of self", "... is the nature of the world") Perhaps others might have a better explanation. Metta, Rob M :-) 50981 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 10:28pm Subject: Re: Perceptions of events of the historical Buddha antony272b2 Dear Group, I didn't mean to sound like I was doubting Theravada in particular. I derived this post from one I made to a multi-tradition forum where I thought that most schools of Buddhism are well-intentioned such that it was appropriate to question Theravada as well as the other schools. Sutras in some other schools of Buddhism including the outrageous Vajrayana ones I referred to, also start with "Thus I have heard". with metta / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have built up a rather comfortable image of the Buddha from the > Pali Canon, ignoring the Mahayana and Vajrayana sutras which have the > historical Buddha doing all sorts of other things (including in > Vajrayana sutras sexual intercourse according to a Zen scholar). > > It is disturbing to think that these contradictions are such that > groups of people in either Theravada or the other schools (or myself > right now!) must have had collective auditory hallucinations ("Thus I > have heard") (I don't think that without modern communications any > individual could deliberately invent discourses of Shakyamuni Buddha > and also be able to persuade the large group of people preserving the > discourses to add them). > > Is it in the nature of reality that traditions separated by space and > time will have different perceptions of events 2,600 years ago? (I > have read that mystics find themselves in the same ocean as > schizophrenics and the mystics swim and the schizophrenics drown). > > Thanks / Antony. 50982 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 10:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) bardosein > The best reason that I can come up with that mana and ditthi cannot > arise at the same time is: > - The nature of mana is to compare, and comparison requires a > separating of "I" from "others" ("I am strong" implies that there are > others who are not strong) > - The nature of ditthi is to generalize ("... is the nature of > kamma", "... is the nature of self", "... is the nature of the world") > > Perhaps others might have a better explanation. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Rob M, Thanks so much for your comments. If I'm following your reasoning here, I think this is what I was partially trying to suggest as well. The characteristic mark of conceit (as I understand it) is affective, being that sort of swelling/deflating feeling that we all know well. So I take the CMA to mean that there is an affective state of "I am," concomitant with bodily awareness that is not dependent on the "I am" that arises from the discursive nature of cognitive processes. In other words, we have an affective mode of "I am" (conceit) and a cognitive mode of "I am" (wrong view). Hal ____________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 50983 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) onco111 Hi Hal, I like your wording on the distinction between 'conceit' and 'wrong view': affective mode (conceit) vs. cognitive mode (wrong view). The distinction is also discussed in a colorful exchange between Khemaka (an anagami) and a group of curious bhikkhus (S. 22:89/iii,130): "I do not say 'I am' in regard to material form, feeling, perception, mental formations, or consciousness, nor do I say that there is an 'I am' apart from material form, feeling perception, mental formations, or consciousness. However, a sense that 'I am' is still found in me in reference to the five clinging aggregates; but I do not consider 'this I am'.... Even though the ariyan disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters (making him a non-returner), nevertheless a residual conceit 'I am', desire 'I am', latent tendency 'I am' still remains in him in reference to the five clinging aggregates." BB expounds on this sutta in the introduction to his little booklet "The discourse on the root of existence: The mulapariyaya sutta and its commentaries" (p. 16), and his interpretation is similar to yours (but your "affective/cognitive" is easier on the ears than his "athematic/thematic"): "The idea 'I am' is a spontaneous, athematic notion born from the basic unawareness of the egoless nature of phenomena. It becomes manifest in consciousness in dual form -- as a conceit or wrong estimation of oneself in relation to actuality and as a desire directed towards the perpetuation of one's being. Both these forms are in essence prereflective...The view of the self, on the other hand, is a thematic consideration bound up with reflectivity as an inherent part of its structure. Even when held dogmatically or accepted in faith without examination, it involves at least a modicum of deliberation precipitating a doctrinal stance as its articulated product. ...[With the learner], so long as a trace of ignorance remains unabolished in the deeper strata of his mental continuum, an attenuated sense of egohood lingers over is experience in the form of a subtle craving and conceit." Dan > Rob M, > > Thanks so much for your comments. If I'm following your reasoning > here, I think this is what I was partially trying to suggest as well. > The characteristic mark of conceit (as I understand it) is affective, > being that sort of swelling/deflating feeling that we all know well. > So I take the CMA to mean that there is an affective state of "I am," > concomitant with bodily awareness that is not dependent on the "I am" > that arises from the discursive nature of cognitive processes. In > other words, we have an affective mode of "I am" (conceit) and a > cognitive mode of "I am" (wrong view). > > Hal > ____________________________________________________ > "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 50984 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satori? onco111 Hi Howard, What you describe sounds similar to something I struggled with for a few days during the fourth week of my second intensive meditation retreat. It was resolved somewhat after a few days, and I left a few days more after that. I had originally planned to stay an additional week or two, but I convinced myself that I needed to leave so that I could learn how to scuba dive at Phuket and visit the jungle -- "not much time left in Thailand to accomplish these things!" My meditation teacher told me that I was running away because of the fear. I assured him that the fear issue had been resolved by adding more layers of calm, so that I could "blink out" and thereby "go through" the whirlwind. After going through, it became quite easy to sit for one hour (and occasionally two hours) without even the slightest adjustment or even the desire to adjust. Both my teacher and an Australian monk at the monastery independently said, "Jhana" when I described what was happening, but the truth is that I left a few days later, a week or two ahead of schedule. Attachment to the special experiences that I couldn't seem to conjure up again? Disappointment that the other side of the whirlwind was not enlightenment? I recall the experiences quite vividly, even today, 16 years later; but, really, they weren't anything more than "special experiences". The experiences closely resemble *almost* everything that I read in the texts about jhana. But it could not have been jhana. The difference is that the sharp concentration that brought me through the whirlwind was akusala (great attachment), but jhana is kusala. Every little detail is of critical importance. It reminds me of the difference between Right Effort and Wrong Effort as described in Dhs (as I have posted several times in the past): "What at that time is right effort? That which at that time is mental endeavor, riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the tast well, endeavour as faculty of endeavour, power of endeavor, right effort -- this at that time is right effort" (paragraph 22 in U Kyaw Khine's translation of Dhs; exposition of kusala dhamma). "What at that time is wrong effort? That which at that time is mental endeavor, riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the tast well, endeavour as faculty of endeavour, power of endeavor, wrong effort -- this at that time is wrong effort" (paragraph 383 in U Kyaw Khine's translation of Dhs; discussion of akusala dhamma). The only difference between right effort and wrong effort is that right effort is Right and wrong effort is Wrong! The difference lies in the distinction between 'samma' and 'miccha', which is not that easy to discern... Metta, Dan > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > The fear was the fear of being released from one's prison cell, when > that cell has been all one has known for a long, long time. Often, a woeful but > familiar circumstance is welcomed over a vastly better but strange one. The > horror at being released, adrift on an unknown sea or plunged into a bottomless > abyss, is quite overwhelming unless a layer of calm has been set in place. > This is why the jhanas are so important I believe. > ------------------------------------------- 50985 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: Perceptions of events of the historical Buddha onco111 Hi Antony, It's great to see you. It must be close to your fifth anniversary with dsg... Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I didn't mean to sound like I was doubting Theravada in particular. I > derived this post from one I made to a multi-tradition forum where I > thought that most schools of Buddhism are well-intentioned such that > it was appropriate to question Theravada as well as the other > schools. Sutras in some other schools of Buddhism including the > outrageous Vajrayana ones I referred to, also start with "Thus I have > heard". > > with metta / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > I have built up a rather comfortable image of the Buddha from the > > Pali Canon, ignoring the Mahayana and Vajrayana sutras which have > the > > historical Buddha doing all sorts of other things (including in > > Vajrayana sutras sexual intercourse according to a Zen scholar). > > > > It is disturbing to think that these contradictions are such that > > groups of people in either Theravada or the other schools (or > myself > > right now!) must have had collective auditory hallucinations ("Thus > I > > have heard") (I don't think that without modern communications any > > individual could deliberately invent discourses of Shakyamuni > Buddha > > and also be able to persuade the large group of people preserving > the > > discourses to add them). > > > > Is it in the nature of reality that traditions separated by space > and > > time will have different perceptions of events 2,600 years ago? (I > > have read that mystics find themselves in the same ocean as > > schizophrenics and the mystics swim and the schizophrenics drown). > > > > Thanks / Antony. 50986 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) bardosein Hi Dan D., This is really helpful and also encouraging. Thanks for the quotes and references. Hal _____________________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot -------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Hal, > I like your wording on the distinction between 'conceit' and 'wrong > view': affective mode (conceit) vs. cognitive mode (wrong view). The > distinction is also discussed in a colorful exchange between Khemaka > (an anagami) and a group of curious bhikkhus (S. 22:89/iii,130): >. > > .... 50987 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 0:31am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 289 Conceit -maana (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] Conceit is eradicated only when arahatship has been attained. The sotåpanna (who has attained the first stage of enlightenment), the sakadågåmí (who has attained the second stage of enlightenment) and the anågåmí (who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) still have conceit. Even those who have eradicated the wrong view of self and who have realized that what is called a “person” are only nåmas and rúpas which arise and fall away, may still cling to nåma and rúpa with conceit. Conceit has been accumulated for so long. One may think “one’s own” nåmas and rúpas better, equal or less than someone else’s, even though one has realized that there is no self. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50988 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 1:55am Subject: Guarding the Sense Doors sarahprocter... Deat Tep & Htoo, >S: You wrote that `If someone perfects indriyasamvarasiila it will > become > adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and > not through discussions among Groups for understranding.' > > S: Can we say instead that indriyasamvarasiila and adhi siila will > only be developed and perfected through the development of > satipatthana? Then it's a question of how we define satipatthana > again. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Well, anything wrong in this statement? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... Tep, you also disagreed with my comment and said my ‘error’ is caused by my ‘bias toward satipatthana’ and re-quoted from the Kundaliya Sutta, which Htoo agreed with, suggesting it is the ‘detailed abhidhamma that biasedness arises’ :). A few extra comments: 1.Adhi siila (higher morality,as discussed before) is only developed through satipatthana. This is why only the sotapanna has perfected adhi-siila and will never again break the precepts. There is no such guaranatee for even those who have attained the highest jhanas. In the context of visuddhi (purity), the ‘guarding’ or restraint always refers to satipatthana. 2.There is, however, guarding or indriyasamvarasiila whenever sati arises, i.e with all sobhana cittas (beautiful consciousness). I referred to this aspect and the Kundaliya sutta before. ‘Restraint of the Senses’ can refer to sati which is not of the degree of satipatthana such as when there is generosity, metta or restraint from harming. Sati and the other sobhana factors perform the function of guarding, but not usually with wisdom at such times. 3.However, there is no development of such guarding unless there is bhavana or mental development arising, i.e samatha or vipassana development, not just the arising of sobhana cittas. In context, usually the guarding refers to satipatthana. See Vism,1, 102: “....restraint of the sense faculties (indriya samvara siila) should be undertaken with mindfulness. For that is accomplished by mindfulness, because when the sense faculties’ functions are founded on mindfulness, there is no liability to invasion by covetousness and the rest. So, recollecting the Fire Discourse, which begins thus, ‘Better, bhikkhus, the extirpation of the eye faculty by a red-hot burning blazing glowing iron spike than the apprehension of signs in the particulars of visible objects cognizable by the eye’ (S iv 168), this [restraint] should be properly undertaken by preventing with unremitting mindfulness any apprehension, in the objective fields consisting of visible data, etc, of any signs, etc, likely to encourage covetousness, etc, to invade consciousness occurring in connexion with the eye door, and so on.” ***** S: This is a description of the development of satipatthana, developing mindfulness and understanding realities appearing. (Btw, Tep, satipatthana is not ‘just samma-sati’ as you suggested #50464, but refers to the development of mindfulness AND wisdom and other associated factors as the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear). In the context of the Saama~n~naphala Sutta, DN2 (which James also recently referred to), the guarding of the sense doors, development of sati-sampaja~n~na and jhanas is in the context of satipatthana too, as I read it. I see no abhidhamma bias – the suttas are very explicit with regard to the development of satipatthana too. This is the Budhha’s teaching. [Also, note Nina’s commentary notes to the Kundaliya sutta #48379 and #48388]. As I’m going away, let me also quote more on indriyasamvarasiila from A.Sujin’s Cambodia talks: KS: “The síla that include the five precepts, the eight precepts or, in the case of monks, restraint with regard to the Disciplinary Code (påtimokkha samvara síla), concern only conduct through body or speech. However, when paññå is developed that knows the characteristics of realities as they appear one at a time through the six doors, there is the guarding of the sense faculties, indriya samvara síla. When there is awareness of realities that appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind-door, there is actually training in higher síla (adhi síla sikkhå) and even if a slight degree of akusala citta would arise, it could not condition any motion of the body to perform a bad deed, and one is able to know with sati sampajañña (sati and paññå) the characteristic of the reality appearing at that moment . “Thus, there is indriya samvara síla, the guarding of the six doors, when someone is aware of the characteristics of realities appearing through the senses and the mind-door. Then he develops the paññå that knows the true nature of realities. When someone has attained the state of the sotåpanna he will not transgress any more the five precepts.” ***** 4.So, the perfection of such guarding and the eradication of kilesa (in stages) can only be performed by the development of satipatthana. Only the javana (‘running through’ or ‘active’) cittas of the arahant ‘guard’ all the time, because by nature they are all sobhana cittas. This is why we read that the arahant is continuously mindful or the senses are continually guarded. See this extract from Nyantiloka dict: >Restraint of the senses (indriya-samvara-síla). "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (M 38).< ***** To quote again from the Cambodia talks on pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha as the discussion started with how such guarding could 'be done': “There are three levels of the understanding of the Dhamma that has been taught, namely, the level of study, pariyatti, the level of practice, patipatti, and the level of the direct realization of the truth, pativedha. The first level is pariyatti, the study of the theory about realities. When right understanding of the realities that appear and that arise and fall away has become more firmly established, it is the condition for the arising of sati that studies realities with awareness. “Then one will gradually understand the true nature of realities as they are appearing one at a time. This is satipatthåna, or, it can be called the practice, patipatti, that is the second level of understanding. The Påli term patipatti can mean going towards [1]. When sati arises it goes specifically towards such or such characteristic of a paramattha dhamma that is appearing.” **** S: So I would suggest in conclusion that it is by the development of satipatthana alone, that the guarding of the sense doors as well adhi sila, adhi citta and adhi panna can be developed and perfected. not by any other means at all. I won’t be able to respond again for quite some time, but I always appreciate reading all your post and comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 50989 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > But we only have one sutta on parinna that I quoted earlier: > "And which is comprehension(parinna)? Any ending of passion, > ending of aversion, ending of delusion. This is called comprehension > (parinna)." > > How much more can you read into this very straightforward meaning > given by the Buddha? I think while you were reading this sutta you just > added those words that the Buddha did not speak to it. Where in this > sutta (or elsewhere) did the Buddha define 'parinna' by the three > stages of development? .... S: I think that often different words are used to convey the meanings. For example, in the sutta about the relay race, it's the same visuddhis being referred to. In the sutta after the one you quoted on pahana parinna, the 3 parinnas are being referred to as the commentary made clear. Do you think the ancient commentators, said to be the Buddha's key disciples such as Maha Kaccayana, were overlooking the obvious and attributing wrong meanings that merely confused and complicated those who were able to read the straightforward meanings intended? As you've said, you sometimes find the commentary details helpful and sometimes quote from the Visuddhimagga. Surely we can't say that only when such commentary details accord with our views and understanding are they correct? I'm not trying to be tricky here. I think it's easy to go to the other extreme of religiously following the words in the book without any investigating and real considering of the meaning as it applies to the practice, the understanding of dhammas now. Tep, I left your messages until the end because they are usually the hardest for me to respond to, but like Dan, I learn a lot from corresponding with you and consider your contributions here to be a real asset. Keep up the good work! I had also intended to respond to the comments you forwarded by Han Tun on the parinnas #50415. I agreed with some points and not with others. Very interesting and lots of meat but no time left. So, anything else will have to wait for my return unless it's really quick and simple:). Metta, Sarah p.s I appreciated your comments (to Dan) I think about being 'a little kinder and more respectful to everyone from now'. We all need to learn from these words. You also wrote that you 'hope to see responses of the similar kind from everyone! Is this asking too much?'. S: Yes, I think so....I think it is this kind of hoping and expectation of others that gets us into trouble.....:-)). Better to set a good example and if we fail, try again:). ====================================== 50990 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations is a > > teaching of the Buddha. > > Correction: I don't think believing in the efficacy of accumulations > extending into future lives is a teaching of the Buddha. .... S: I won't butt in as I I'm leaving, but I'll look forward to reading your discussions with Rob and others on this thread. It'll be helpful for others too. Btw, I thought your posts on a)the ti-lakkhana #50285 (need for developing understanding of each as I read the quote, not just one) and b) on traps of jhana #50284, esp your conclusion, were good. I was going to add more, but will leave it there. Speak later. I hope you persevere with your recent discussion with Howard:)). Metta, Sarah p.s I'm curious about the phrase 'without practice (wisdom) is lost' in the Dhp 282 and whether it doesn't mean, just no conditions to arise. Nothing is literally 'lost' as such, is it? ======================= 50991 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Coma - fruit of kamma? sarahprocter... Hi KH, --- khcheah33 wrote: > Hi Dhamma friends, > I was at the KL Gen. Hospital(lunch-break), visiting a colleague > who is recovering from head injuries, the result of a freak accident > on 28-8-05. It's about 7~8 days now since her coming out from a semi- > conscious state. ... S: I really wish your colleague a good recovery. Another friend here asked me about a coma situation before. This is what I wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30592 I'd like to thank you for all your good comments and quotes on kamma- you've obviously considered all these points and texts very carefully. I'm enjoying your posts and am very glad Rob prompted your to surface (and you him of course too!). Hope to 'meet' more of your group in due course too:). Metta, Sarah ===== 50992 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 6, no 2. bardosein Hi Nina, N: Paññå is correct understanding and this begins with listening to the Dhamma so that understanding can grow. When sati arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities that are appearing paññå can come to know them as they are. That is true paññå.> --------------------- H: This seems to give far too much priority to pariyatti over patipatti. Nina, I liked what I believe you said before in an earlier post about the need for balance. Don't both need to developed together in tandem, before pativedha can occur? And, from the standpoint of the paticcasamuppada, doesn't it make more sense to place emphasis on patitpatti rather than pariyatti, at least in the early stages of practice? Isn't this the very reason why the Satipatthana sutta begins with kayanupassana and only much later, having established oneself in the contemplations of feeling and mental states, that one can then contemplate (listen to) the higher dhammas? In other words, although I would agree that "understanding begins with listening to the Dhamma", isn't it the case that the conditions for listening must first be established, before true panna can arise? Hal ____________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 50993 From: "leoaive" Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 1:08am Subject: imageless leoaive Hi I was reading Buddhist sutra and it says about meditating on imageless. What that can be? Is that anything imagless or something specific immaterial? 50994 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) upasaka_howard Hi, Hal (and Rob) - In a message dated 10/3/05 1:37:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, halwilson@... writes: > >The best reason that I can come up with that mana and ditthi cannot > >arise at the same time is: > >- The nature of mana is to compare, and comparison requires a > >separating of "I" from "others" ("I am strong" implies that there > are > >others who are not strong) > >- The nature of ditthi is to generalize ("... is the nature of > >kamma", "... is the nature of self", "... is the nature of the > world") > > > >Perhaps others might have a better explanation. > > > >Metta, > >Rob M :-) > > Rob M, > > Thanks so much for your comments. If I'm following your reasoning > here, I think this is what I was partially trying to suggest as well. > The characteristic mark of conceit (as I understand it) is affective, > being that sort of swelling/deflating feeling that we all know well. > So I take the CMA to mean that there is an affective state of "I am," > concomitant with bodily awareness that is not dependent on the "I am" > that arises from the discursive nature of cognitive processes. In > other words, we have an affective mode of "I am" (conceit) and a > cognitive mode of "I am" (wrong view). > > Hal > ========================= Hal, what you are saying here makes a lot of sense to me. I think of "wrong view" as the cognitive grasping of a self (or self-existent essence/core) in the empirical person and in phenomena, whereas I think of "conceit" as the SENSE of self, particularly of personal identity, and, as I analyze exactly what I mean by 'sense', I realize that it has an affective flavor. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50995 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 5:23am Subject: Off again! dsgmods Dear Friends, In a few hours we'll be setting off for the airport and will be away for just over 3 weeks, first in Bangkok and then in India with the Thai group. This means that for those of you whom we help with trimming or editing of posts, there may be some delays, for which we apologise in advance. We will keep these delays to a minimum. For everyone, we will of course be following the list keenly, and keeping our usual close eye on things. In response to an off-list note, we’d like to stress that we see our moderator role primarily as one of giving assistance to those with posting 'difficulties' rather than one of picking up every inappropriate comment made. We try to find the middle way between the extremes of over and under-moderation -:). We look forward to reading all your posts as we go along, and to chipping in whenever we have a chance. Jon & Sarah PS (1) For those who are not familiar with the Guidelines (which, by the way, are updated from time to time), they can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files (scroll down to the item 'DSG Guidelines') (2) As usual, any comments on this or other moderator issues off-list only! Thanks. 50996 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satori? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - Thank you for the following. Perhaps there were similarities in our experiences. It is difficult, of course, to attempt to compare unusual internal events in differnt mind streams. In my case, the experience didn't occur while in the midst of meditating, though it was clearly conditioned by the intense meditating at the retreat. The experience lasted for perhaps only an hour to two, but it did seem to have a lasting "fall out." As time has gone by, I seem to have increasingly lost desire for a "repeat performance". That experience came and went, it seems to have been helpful, and that's that. What fruit current and future practice will bear remains to be seen. In a message dated 10/3/05 2:57:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, What you describe sounds similar to something I struggled with for a > > few days during the fourth week of my second intensive meditation > retreat. It was resolved somewhat after a few days, and I left a few > days more after that. I had originally planned to stay an additional > week or two, but I convinced myself that I needed to leave so that I > could learn how to scuba dive at Phuket and visit the jungle -- "not > much time left in Thailand to accomplish these things!" > -------------------------------------- Howard: LOL!! :-) ------------------------------------ My meditation > > teacher told me that I was running away because of the fear. I > assured him that the fear issue had been resolved by adding more > layers of calm, so that I could "blink out" and thereby "go through" > the whirlwind. After going through, it became quite easy to sit for > one hour (and occasionally two hours) without even the slightest > adjustment or even the desire to adjust. Both my teacher and an > Australian monk at the monastery independently said, "Jhana" when I > described what was happening, but the truth is that I left a few days > later, a week or two ahead of schedule. Attachment to the special > experiences that I couldn't seem to conjure up again? Disappointment > that the other side of the whirlwind was not enlightenment? > > I recall the experiences quite vividly, even today, 16 years later; > but, really, they weren't anything more than "special experiences". > The experiences closely resemble *almost* everything that I read in > the texts about jhana. But it could not have been jhana. The > difference is that the sharp concentration that brought me through > the whirlwind was akusala (great attachment), but jhana is kusala. > Every little detail is of critical importance. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I find myself unable to characterize my experience except to say that it was very frightening yet very useful. ----------------------------------------- > > It reminds me of the difference between Right Effort and Wrong Effort > as described in Dhs (as I have posted several times in the past): > > "What at that time is right effort? That which at that time is mental > endeavor, riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, > endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost > exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having > sustained desire to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging > the tast well, endeavour as faculty of endeavour, power of endeavor, > right effort -- this at that time is right effort" (paragraph 22 in U > Kyaw Khine's translation of Dhs; exposition of kusala dhamma). > > "What at that time is wrong effort? That which at that time is mental > endeavor, riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, > endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost > exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having > sustained desire to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging > the tast well, endeavour as faculty of endeavour, power of endeavor, > wrong effort -- this at that time is wrong effort" (paragraph 383 in > U Kyaw Khine's translation of Dhs; discussion of akusala dhamma). > > The only difference between right effort and wrong effort is that > right effort is Right and wrong effort is Wrong! The difference lies > in the distinction between 'samma' and 'miccha', which is not that > easy to discern... > > Metta, > > Dan > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50997 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Rob M, > There are many Suttas where monks go to the Buddha and ask "why is > this person like this..." and the Buddha replies, "in a previous > life, ...". Rob K recently gave three examples in a post to me (a > crow, a captain's wife and a group of monks trapped in a cave). My opinion is that these stories are there to encourage us to attain what should be attained in this life. It is not an encouragement to believe in the efficacy of accumulations extending into future lives. Regards, Swee Boon 50998 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 7:10am Subject: Re: Htoo: Is the path difficult? nidive Hi RobertK, > One of the conditions to hear Dhamma in this life is that one has > pubbekata punnata from past lives. It is not by chance that one has > the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. > And once it is heard whether wise attention will arise also is > conditioned by punna from the past (this life and past lives). Some > people hear Dhamma and misunderstand, they take a wrong path. Nothing disagreeable. Being able to listen to the true Dhamma is always because of past meritorious kamma. And I am very grateful to Nina for writing Abhidhamma in Daily Life. Because of her generosity, I had the chance to hear about the Abhidhamma. This is also because of past meritorious kamma. No doubt about this. Regards, Swee Boon 50999 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 8:34am Subject: Re: Guarding the Sense Doors ? Is Kundaliya Sutta Misleading? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Htoo, James and all) - Thank you for trying to explain why you disagree with my disagreement with your view that indriya-samvara sila comes after satipatthana (not the other way around). >Sarah: > Tep, you also disagreed with my comment and said my `error' >is caused by my `bias toward satipatthana' and re-quoted from >the Kundaliya Sutta, which Htoo agreed with, suggesting it is >the `detailed abhidhamma that biasedness arises' :). > > A few extra comments: > (snipped) > S: So I would suggest in conclusion that it is by the development of > satipatthana alone, that the guarding of the sense doors as well adhi > sila, adhi citta and adhi panna can be developed and perfected. not >by any other means at all. > Tep: I do have respect for your research on adhi siila, satipatthana and sobhana cittas, visudhi and guarding of the sense, etc., etc. However, I am afraid to say that you are not addressing the key issue, namely : according to Kundaliya Sutta, restrainst of the senses (indriya samvara) comes before the fulfillment of satipatthana. Is this sutta wrong? Yes? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Deat Tep & Htoo, >