52200 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 4:44pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina Welcome back. It sounds like you had an exciting time in Kashmir. While you were away we had an exciting few days when I thew a hissy fit (the behavioiur of a hysterical, spoiled child) and threatened to quit DSG. Well, not so exciting. James is taking a one month break out of respect for a promise he made to his boyfriend - very admirable. > But Sawong: For people who develop satipatthåna it is natural that sometimes > the sense-door process is hidden by the mind-door process and that one > therefore cannot see realities as they are. How does that happen? I ask this > to help people not to go the wrong way. > > Sujin: At this moment realities are appearing, such as seeing arising in the > eye-door process. However, people do not know the true nature of what > appears, they take what they see for people and things. Therefore, the > thinking on account of what was seen, thus, the thinking of people and > things, hides the truth. I'm happy to hear this. The other day in one of the talks from last year in India, I heard A. Sujin say that it is the sense door that covers the mind door process, and it didn't make sense. Perhaps she meant to say "is covered by" or perhaps I misheard. All this thinking of people and thinks hides the truth. This is the "dome of lobha" that is constructed, I guess. I think I heard from you that there is lobha even in the act of seeing, not only in the response that follows. So much lobha. I'm feeling as soaked in lobha as you were soaked in icy water when you slipped in that river. Fortunately you had guides to pull you out and I have good Dhamma friends who will help me out of the river of concepts. (But they can't just pull me - not so simple...) When you are settled in and caught up with your e-mails, I would like to ask you about something else I have been hearing a lot - we cannot know akusala cetasikas such as lobha or dosa until we know nama from rupa. A very important point but I had some doubts about it. I will ask you later, quoting a part of a discussion between you and A. Sujin in which it seems that you also had some doubts... Hello to Lodewijk. I am still listening to the Perfections. Very invigorating. I must admit I cling to it on hard, tiring days, when I am comforted by notions of being a patient or energetic person. I know that is not the right way to be listening, but that is the way it is now. We don't always have patience, courage and good cheer and we need our little crutches in life. Of course, eventually I will understand better that the perfections are all about momentary cittas and cetasikas. Phil One does not realize that dhammas appear for an > extremely short moment, that they arise and then fall away immediately. > Thus, when there is thinking that arises in a mind-door process the truth of > the experiences through the sense-doors is not evident. At this moment it is > not evident that what appears through the eyes falls away. It seems that one > sees all the time, but in reality there are cittas of a mind-door process > arising and falling away in succession in between the citta that sees and > the citta that hears, and these cittas arise each in a different sense-door > process. > > When we speak about the eye-door, people understand, because they are > seeing. When we speak about the ear-door, people understand because they are > hearing. When we smell the fragrant odour of a flower, there is an > experience through the nose-door. A delicious or an unsavoury flavour is a > rúpa that appears through the tongue-door. At this moment heat, cold, > softness or hardness appear through the bodysense. However, one does not > know that when each of these sense-door processes has fallen away, a > mind-door process has to succeed that sense-door process immediately, after > there have been bhavanga-cittas in between [1]. Thus, at this moment it > seems that there is seeing and then immediately hearing, and one does not > know when the mind-door process arises. There are different sense- door > processes arising and falling away one after the other, and this can be > known because there is a mind-door process in between. However, that does > not mean that one realizes the characteristic of the mind-door process. One > may merely know in theory that when a sense-door process does not arise and > there are only cittas which are thinking, that there are at such moments > cittas arising in a mind-door process. > > Footnote: > 1 Seeing , hearing and the other sense-cognitions arise in a series or > process of cittas that each perform their own function. There are sense-door > processes and mind-door processes. When a sense-door process has fallen away > it is followed by a mind-door process of cittas that experience the sense > object which was experienced by cittas arising in that sense-door process > and which has just fallen away. Visible object, for example, that is > experienced by cittas arising in the eye-door process, is also experienced > by cittas arising in the following process, which is the mind-door process. > These cittas just experience the visible object, they do not think about it. > Thinking of shape and form, of concepts of people and things can arise later > on, in other mind-door processes. > > ****** > Nina. > 52201 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: Vipaka paradox philofillet Hi Howard I had opportunity to reflect on the following that you wrote the other day: > > So, what "happens" to each one of us is determined not only by our > own > > cetana, but also by the cetana of others. There is a kind of > reflective > > interpenetration. The so called human realm is actually a shared > experience and the > > joint construct of a multitude of "beings", a cooperative kammic > construct, > > so to speak. What brought on my reflection was Naomi (my wife) being in a very, very bad mood and being (and I think an impartial observer would agree) and utter bbbiiii....I can't say it! Anyways, as usual recently, I took the harsh speech I was receiving as vipaka, that I was getting it because of my kamma, and this helped me to weather the storm, and not create too much new kamma, and this morning the storm had blown over. So what I was thinking about Naomi's cetana and my cetana was that if I saw our marriage, the "cooperative kamma construct" of this little household, in terms of her cetana and my cetana interacting and so on, yes, it would be a sensible and healthy way to approach marriage therapy, for example. Discuss the issues, perhaps defend myself, question her position etc, seek solutions, ways of compromising so that our cetana tendencies could be harmonized or something like that. (Though that is not necessarily what you were saying.) And this could be extended to attempting to harmonize relations in offices, neighbourhoods, countries even. But it also seemed to me that this would encourage proliferation about stories, about people, whereas the Buddha's teaching leads us to detachment from such things, gradually. So it felt to me that taking what was happening as vipaka helped to condition a little more detachment from what was going on, and though we don't want to be cold or indifferent, there is to be more detachment, I do believe. Again, not the conventional approach to marital spats, but I do think it will be my way, more and more. And since, in the end, we didn't fight as much as I suspect we would have if I had been more involved, "I protected others by protecting myself" as that sutta goes. This is not directly to do with your theory, which was obviously much subtler, but this is what occured to me yesterday and this morning. Phil 52202 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - I know beyond words that you are my dhamma friend because I missed you while you were gone. Yet, I have been asked why Htoo and I always "quarrel" (the exact word as used by the interogator). ........................... >Tep : Can you be kind enough to give me a list of such things? > -- a few of them will be just fine. Htoo: About teaches core knowledge. Example 'this is eye' 'this is form' 'this is eye-consciousness'. ... ... Without the knowledge of such abhidhamma things it is hard to see Dhamma. Tep: Good answer ! ........................... Htoo: Actually Suttas are also packed with many abhidhammaa. Suttas do not explain all abhidhamma things. Tep: Only the abhidhamma "things" that the suttas do not explain came into existence after the Buddha's parinibbana. .......................... Htoo: Suttas will teach 'this is form_iti ruupam' 'this is eye_iti cakkhu' etc etc. But who deeply understand these without abhidhamma knowledge? Tep: The third basket of the Ti-pitaka, the (original) Abhidhamma- pitaka, is what I consider as an integral part of the Buddha's Dhamma. So there is no comparison or competition between the Sutta-pitaka and the Abhidhamma-pitaka. I know there are several bhikkhus who do not study much (unlike the Abhidhamma scholars who write books) beyond the Sutta-Pitaka, but they do "deeply understand these without abhidhamma knowledge". One of them was Luang Pu Dun. ........................ Tep: Thank you for the story about good doctors and diseases. ......................... >Tep: ... There were enlightened monks during the Buddha's time, >who did not know the Abhidhamma. Htoo: Here I think this is wrong. All arahats know abhidhammaa. Your word 'who did not know the abhidhamma' may be indicating 'the books of abhidhamma'. But no one will become an arahats without knowledge of abhidhamma. Tep: That is excellent, Htoo ! That is like your silver bullet that was shot through a vampire's heart. Your answer is right in the sense that the Dhamma of the suttas is integrated with the Abhidhamma of the third basket, but wrong in the sense that the Buddha taught the Dhamma in the suttas and nothing else. Sometimes he taught a very simple Dhamma like the following in the Malunkyaputta Sutta (SN XXXV.95). "Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no youthere, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." [endquote] You don't need to study the Abhidhamma-pitaka in order to understand the above teaching, do you? In many cases he did not have to teach the monks more than two suttas (for example, he taught the First Discourse and the Anattalakkhana Sutta to the first five disciples, and they became arahants). Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > (snipped) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > > This same logic applies to dhamma treatments of the defilements > (kilesas). There were enlightened monks during the > Buddha's time, [Htoo: I agree] > > who did not know the Abhidhamma. > > Warm regards, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here I think this is wrong. All arahats know abhidhammaa. Your > word 'who did not know the abhidhamma' may be indicating 'the books > of abhidhamma'. > > But no one will become an arahats without knowledge of abhidhamma. > 52203 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" buddhistmedi... Hi, Andrew - I generally agree and am delighted with the dhamma that is found in the Bhikkhu Dhammapala's "Problems Bared" book. However, the concept of "free will" is still controversial at this point. Let's wait to hear KKT explains it and see if he makes a lot of sense. :-)) The Bhikkhu stated, "... there is no will to be free or not, but only the act of willing, of desire which arises in dependence on sensation (vedana-paccaya tanha)." Well, let's discuss the other part of your message instead. The most agreeable points are : -- "... all references to the mind, the will, the individual, and so on, must be understood in this light of the Buddha's teaching of anatta." -- "The object of choice influences the process of choosing; and without objects there can be no choice." --" 'Is the will determined or free?' This could be another one of those undecided questions (avyakata) 'is the world eternal or not eternal?' - questions which can never be answered, not even by the Buddha, because of the inherent wrong in the question itself." The views on eternality and the opposite of it are extreme, and should be avoided -- unless we want to be deluded. But I find a contradiction to the Buddha's Teaching as follows: -- "..there is no mind but only thought, the act of thinking.." It contradicts to at least two suttas (there are many more contradictions I can find, but for the moment let's be contented with the following two). "When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. ...." [DN 22] "...Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect." [MN 148] In DN 22 the "mind" is citta and the "intellect" in MN 148 is mano -- both are the same. Note that "consciousness at the intellect' is mano- vinnana. What do you think? Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > (snipped) > > Hi Tep > > Here's an extract from Bhikkhu Dhammapala's "Problems Bared" book. I > hope it is of interest: > > "In the teaching of the Buddha, there is no entity of an abiding > nature, neither as a physical substance nor as a spiritual soul; and > therefore, all references to the mind, the will, the individual, and > so on, must be understood in this light of the Buddha's teaching of > anatta. (snipped) 52204 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. gazita2002 hello Phil, and Nina, would like to add my 2 cents worth here, Phil welcome back Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Hi Nina > > Welcome back. It sounds like you had an exciting time in Kashmir. > While you were away we had an exciting few days when I thew a hissy > fit (the behavioiur of a hysterical, spoiled child) and threatened > to quit DSG. Well, not so exciting. James is taking a one month > break out of respect for a promise he made to his boyfriend - very > admirable. > > > When you are settled in and caught up with your e-mails, I would > like to ask you about something else I have been hearing a lot - we > cannot know akusala cetasikas such as lobha or dosa until we know > nama from rupa. A very important point but I had some doubts about > it. I will ask you later, quoting a part of a discussion between you > and A. Sujin in which it seems that you also had some doubts... Azita: Nina may well have lots more to say, however, here goes. its my understanding that unless wisdom can know nama from rupa, which are very different from ea other, then it cannot distinguish one nama from another, which are not so different one from the other, by comparison. can't locate the relevant info at this moment - its about the stages of insight. here's a very crude example: if you don't know swimming from fishing, then how can you know one style of swimming from another eg freestyle from backstroke. i realise akusala and kusala are different, but can you tell the difference at the very moment of their arising without highly developed panna. if this was the case, then why would panna need to know rupa, isnt it kusala and akusala that keeps one in samsara? [simply put]. patience, courage and good cheer, azita 52205 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipaka paradox upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/7/05 8:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > I had opportunity to reflect on the following that you wrote the > other day: > > >>So, what "happens" to each one of us is determined not only by > our > >own > >>cetana, but also by the cetana of others. There is a kind of > >reflective > >>interpenetration. The so called human realm is actually a shared > >experience and the > >>joint construct of a multitude of "beings", a cooperative kammic > >construct, > >>so to speak. > > > What brought on my reflection was Naomi (my wife) being in a very, > very bad mood and being (and I think an impartial observer would > agree) and utter bbbiiii....I can't say it! Anyways, as usual > recently, I took the harsh speech I was receiving as vipaka, that I > was getting it because of my kamma, and this helped me to weather > the storm, and not create too much new kamma, and this morning the > storm had blown over. > > So what I was thinking about Naomi's cetana and my cetana was that > if I saw our marriage, the "cooperative kamma construct" of this > little household, in terms of her cetana and my cetana interacting > and so on, yes, it would be a sensible and healthy way to approach > marriage therapy, for example. Discuss the issues, perhaps defend > myself, question her position etc, seek solutions, ways of > compromising so that our cetana tendencies could be harmonized or > something like that. (Though that is not necessarily what you were > saying.) And this could be extended to attempting to harmonize > relations in offices, neighbourhoods, > countries even. But it also seemed to me that this would encourage > proliferation about stories, about people, whereas the Buddha's > teaching leads us to detachment from such things, gradually. So it > felt to me that taking what was happening as vipaka helped to > condition a little more detachment from what was going on, and > though we don't want to be > cold or indifferent, there is to be more detachment, I do believe. > Again, not the conventional approach to marital spats, but I do > think it will be my way, more and more. And since, in the end, we > didn't fight as much as I suspect we would have if I had been more > involved, "I protected others by protecting myself" as that sutta > goes. > > This is not directly to do with your theory, which was obviously > much subtler, but this is what occured to me yesterday and this > morning. > > Phil > =========================== Thanks for the reply, Phil. I have just two comments: 1) What "works" for a person is peculiar to that person, and whatever is conducive to calm, to peace, and to letting be is to the good. 2) What I think is true in general is that we are, typically, each of us, neither a helpless victim of nature and other beings nor the sole determiner of our fate; each of these positions is an extreme that goes too far. But what does happen "to us" and "in us", though not solely due to our own kamma, *is* solely due to conditions, and, in truth and reality, these conditions are impersonal. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52206 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 8:42pm Subject: Photos (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG)) sarahprocter... Hi Icaro, (then I seem to wander into a post to Nina, Lodewijk, Phil, Chris, Sukin, & anyone who hasn't put a pic in the album...) Icaro, great to see you back in such good form a) in terms of the words in your messages...the concepts arising from the marking of rupas as we look at the screen (as Larry said, without sanna, no concepts at all)- --- icarofranca wrote: > As stated before, concepts ( at least in a Buddhistic sense! ) are > derivations of real external objects. Since there aren´t a Self to > blame or cherish, there aren´t a "Concept of Self" to be Dukkha´s root. <...> > Are the act of denying the Non-existent more insane than the act of > stating its existence ? Not in my opinion! ... b) in terms of the super new pic of you without the rum (see DSG photo album -last member pic).....the concept of Icaro arising from those visible objects, with or without any atta-sanna.... I hope you encourage others, such as Tep who got as far as making a half-promise:)). Matheesha, Swee Boon, Joop, Htoo behind a curtain at least,HAL??? Oh, Icaro, could you change the heading from 'happy again' to "Icaro, happy again?' for those who need more assistance in coming to the right concept? I'm feeling 'happy again', now my voice is back, my cough gone and able to get back to my exercise routines. I found the reminders from this extract in Cetasikas very pertinent: "So long as we cling to the pleasant “worldly conditions” (lokadhammas) of gain, fame, praise and well-being, we are bound to have aversion when they change. They change all the time but we forget that they are impermanent. When we lose possessions, when we do not receive honour, when we are blamed or when we suffer pain, we have aversion and sadness. Right understanding of realities, of kamma and vipåka, can help us to be more evenminded about pleasant and unpleasant things which happen to us. When we experience unpleasant objects through the senses, it is caused by akusala kamma, by unwholesome deeds which have been committed already, and nobody can avoid akusala vipåka when it is the right time for its arising." ... S: We're bound to be affected by worldly conditions, but it's so helpful to appreciate the truth. Nina, welcome back and thx for sending a message so quickly and updating me on your news. Glad to hear you're back safely. 'The most important thing is understanding'. I wrote a post with this as the subject heading...it was KS's last reminder to us as we left the group. We didn't have further dhamma discussion with her, but the discussions we had during the last 2 days in Kashmir when Jon and I and a few others stayed behind with her are very good and you'll hear them on tape in due course. Also, pls tell Lodewijk about the happy ending to our 'Sony drama'. To cut the long drama short, after having problems with our recording, we borrowed a friend's Sony recording of our discussions in Bkk and when everything else failed (no joy in shops in Hong Kong either), eventually, like you, we had to send it to Tom W in the States. Fortunately (because he has your Sony recorder still), he was able to help us out as we just found out yesterday. So, really thx to Lodewijk indirectly! However I might try to dress it up or justify it (oh, it's dhamma, oh, we need it for editing for others to hear etc etc), it was an example of very strong dosa and lobha on account of gain and loss and long, long stories about them. And back to understanding - again from Cetasikas and the reminders K Sujin and you give there: "When we see the benefit of right understanding of whatever reality appears, there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness, even when it seems that we are not "in the mood" for it." (S: such as when we're down in the dumps or jumping for joy....realities are just as real). I've wandered away from photos:). I was pretty sick on return and didn't mark any posts for you as a result. Sukin gave a list to his great photo albums and also Foo's - perhaps he could kindly give you these links again. Also, Chris, if you had pics to Sukin's 'site', could you let us know and give the link again. If anyone has written posts to Nina or thinks she'd be especially interested in something you've written, pls give her the links to these too. As she mentioned, I gave her a few posts from just before we left Hong Kong and a few numbers along the way only. Somewhere in India, Phil, I vaguely remember marking the numbers of a couple of your posts on a match-box which never quite got to Nina...:-/ And Phil, you've mentioned your little 'drama queen' episode:) I wasn't going to bother to show Nina that letter I replied to. Yes, Lodewijk will have to wait a month to hear from James if he and Amr stick to the deal, but that will give Nina time to attend to the laundry and the Visuddhimagga without any dramas perhaps (or perhaps not)! As she says, we never, never know what may happen though. Nina, so glad the falls weren't serious -- Lodewijk proved to be the 'King of the Mountains' without any slips....hope he's returned home in the same great shape we all saw (or thought we saw!). Metta, Sarah ======== 52207 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 9:06pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 304 Aversion-dosa (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] It seems that we do not have hatred or anger, but this does not mean that dosa has been eradicated. So long as there is still the latent tendency of dosa, it can arise any time. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, no. 21, The Parable of the Saw) about Videhikå who was calm so long as there was no opportunity for dosa. It seemed that she had no dosa at all. She had an excellent reputation, she appeared to be gentle, meek and calm. Her servant Kåîí wanted to test her and she came to work later every day. Because of this Videhikå lost her temper: she hit Kåîí on her head with the pin used for securing the door bolt. Because of that she acquired an evil reputation. We read that the Buddha said to the monks: * "Even so, monks, some monk here is very gentle, very meek, very tranquil so long as disagreeable ways of speech do not assail him. But when disagreeable ways of speech assail the monk it is then that he is to be called gentle, is to be called meek, is to be called tranquil…" * The Buddha exhorted the monks to have a “mind of friendliness”, even if others spoke to them in a disagreeable way, even if low-down thieves would carve them limb by limb with a double-handled saw. Those who have eradicated dosa, the anågåmí and the arahat, never have anger nor the slightest displeasure, even in circumstances which are very difficult to bear, even when they have to endure sickness or pain. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52208 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" phamdluan2000 Dear Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, KKT ( Howard, Swee, Chris, and Nina) - You introduced the idea called " free will " and it received good response. But you did not have time to reply to Howard (#48425). Per our off-list discussion you have agreed to continue the thread. I think it might be a good idea for me to give a summary of this thread to make it easier for you to take over. It all started with message # 48324 that Christine wrote to initiate a discussion on the meaning of " self " in Dhp {379; 380} : Chris: Being familiar with the Useful Posts on Anatta, with the emphasis on "no control", I found these two verses in the Dhammapada raised some questions in my mind. They seem to indicate it is not only possible, but desirable, to 'control' your own self. Any comments? "By self do you censure yourself. By self do you examine yourself. Self-guarded and mindful, O bhikkhu, you will live happily." (379) "Self, indeed, is the protector of self. Self, indeed, is one's refuge. Control, therefore, your own self as a merchant controls a noble steed." (380) Tep: There are several comments in dsg messages # 48340(Nina), 48384(Swee), 48391(Phamdluan or KKT), 48399(Howard), 48403 (Phamdluan), 48426(Swee), 49677(Sarah), and 48425 (Howard). The following passages are selected from these messages; please go to the original ones if you want all details. N: I know some people wonder about the meaning when they see these texts. The Buddha also spoke in conventional language when exhorting people. Just as we do now in daily life. But taking into account the whole context of the Tipitaka we do not misunderstand such words. ... ... So long as we understand that it is pannaa and sati that control. But do we really? .......... Swee: "NO CONTROL" is one extreme view. "A SELF THAT CONTROLS" is another extreme view. There is a middle ground to be sought after. ........... KKT : To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? .............. Howard to KKT : Please, where did he teach that? .............. KKT: Here is an extract from "The Message of the Buddha" by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory from Determinism, he also faced the question of free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told him that he was of the opinion that there was no free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and asked him how he could say such a thing when he himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up to the Buddha and walk away from him. On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is such a thing as 'an element of initiative'(arabbha-dhatu), ... ... and that this showed that THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). ... .... Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism UPHELD A THEORY OF NON- DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. .................. Swee: If free-will were "wholly conditioned", then there would be no new kamma created, we would not have been reborn endlessly, and we would not even need to come to DSG to seek for answers. But free-will is not "wholly conditioned". If you are truthful enough to yourself, you know that. Yet free-will is not self, nor implies a self. "Free-will" is just a series of mental actions over a lifetime. ................. Sarah:The word translated as free-will in KKT's post or initiative in the PTS translation is aarabbhadhaatu and PTS gives a note: aarabbha, gerund of aaraadheti, to set on foot; dhaatu, element. I'd prefer to say that the Buddha taught us that all dhammas, all elements are conditioned but not pre-determined. It is not fatalistic because good thoughts and deeds (as well as bad ones of course) are accumulated and bring results. However, 'free-will' is a misnomer as it suggests there is 'something' apart from conditioned dhammas, whereas the Buddha taught that the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbana. ............... Howard : This is a very complete and interesting answer. There is no question that there is willing. But our willing is always conditioned at least by present and past circumstances in our individual mindstreams, don't you think? Typically, a primary condition for it is tanha, but certainly not always. As to "free" will, well, that is a matter of what one means by 'free'. If it means unconditioned, I think that is not so. All ordinary mental operations, including cetana, are conditioned. In that regard, I'm not clear on the meaning of a theory of *non- deterministic* causal conditioning presented along with a notion of free will by the Buddha that you mention at the end of your post (copied below). Does "non-deterministic" imply random? And, BTW, what sort of "free will" that is random and unconditioned is desirable to anyone? If nothing else, we require that our willing, to be valued by us, be conditioned by our wishes (whether the wishes are mired in self or are a chanda free of self), don't we? ................ Tep: You started an interesting thread by introducing "free will" that is not a self, and yet it is not easy to understand. Is this concept related to the "original citta" that is not contaminated by defilements? Warm regards, Tep KKT: Thank you very much for your interest in this topic. I'm sorry for the last time I could not follow up this topic due to not having time. Maybe the best way to start again this topic is to explain what I've raised in my first post in order to everybody to fully understand what I wrote: 1. << To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. >> I think everybody understands this statement. As for the proof of this statement, see the PS. 2. << To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. >> Because Conditioned Genesis excludes all existence of a self. Does everybody agree with this explanation? 3. << So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. >> This is the conclusion. 4. << But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! >> This phrase needs a little bit of explanation: by FREE-WILL I mean there is some initiative, some freedom in action, something not pre-determined that happens in a way that would be called << OUT OF THE BLUE >> ! :-)) Therefore if WILL is CONDITIONED then it cannot be FREE, can it? 5. << So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? >> This is the problem I've raised. I think we can restart the thread from this point. Best regards, KKT PS. I recopy my full answer to the question of Howard about the proof of the fact that the Buddha taught free-will: KKT: To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. Howard: Please, where did he teach that? KKT: Here is an extract from "The Message of the Buddha" by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory from Determinism, he also faced the question of free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told him that he was of the opinion that there was no free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and asked him how he could say such a thing when he himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up to the Buddha and walk away from him. On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is such a thing as 'an element of initiative' (arabbha-dhatu), and as a result one can observe beings acting with initiative and this says the Buddha is what is called 'the free-will of people' (sattanam atta-karo). He also goes on to say that there is 'an element of origination' (nikkama-dhatu), an 'element of endeavour' (parakkama-dhatu), an 'element of strength' (thama-dhatu) and an 'element of perseverance' (thiti-dhatu) and an 'element of volitional effort' (upakkama-dhatu), which makes beings of their own accord act in various ways, and that this showed that THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire. Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. As a result Buddhism has been represented by some Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma as well as the doctrine of causation. 52209 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Satipatthana Book sarahprocter... Dear Andrew T, --- Andrew wrote: > Dear Hal, Joop, Ken H and anyone interested > > I've now finished reading Ven. Analayo's book "Satipatthana: The > Direct Path to Realization" (Windhorse, 2004 reprint) and will give > some feedback. <...> .... S: Just a brief comment to say that I thought you wrote an excellent book review. (I haven't seen the book). It might well be of interest to Ven Analayo too if any address is given. When I next write to BB, I may include a link to your message as I think he would be interested also. Years ago when I lived in London, I was asked to do some Buddhist book reviews, but it was hopeless. If I didn't agree with the main ideas, I could never get past the first few pages and didn't have your balanced style or interest. I'm sure some publication would be very interested in any reviews you do. Btw, I didn't keep a post of yours in which I *think* you were asking about the iddhipadas and I had a feeling no one answered. I thought of this the other day when I came across Nina's Cambodia post #50420 in which she refers to the iddhipadas at the end, differentiating briefly between the iddhipadas leading to supernatural powers in attainement of jhanas and as factors of enlightenment in development of vipassana. Perhaps you could repost your comment/qu if you still have it for Nina, myself or anyone else. Metta, Sarah ======= 52210 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Hallo Sarah > > Thanks for your reaction. It's clear to me - and to be honest, that > does not surprise me - that we don't agree about my ideas of a > wishful Theravada in future: > "A. Theravada without monks (in fact that's not something I wish but > think that will happen and will not give big problems) > B. Taking parts of the Pali-canon not literal but metaphorical. > (this is the most important point to me) > C. Theravada with less ritual activities, an other kind of dhamma- > study and more (formal) meditation." ... > Joop: My question was how can the rehearsing of the entire Tipitaka > have changed the prophecy of the Buddha (that the Buddha Sasana > declines 500 years) to 5,000 years? > From which source did Buddhaghosa gets this information? Not from the > Tipitaka itself! .... S: Anything written about or after the First Council naturally can only be from the commentaries! I presume the information came from the early commentaries given by those elders or their followers. I don't believe Buddhaghosa made up any new information. ..... > > A second quote from Sayagyi U Chit Tin's essay: > "The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Anguttara-nikaya say > that the eight important rules which the Buddha gave to the Bhikkhuni > Sangha will make his Teachings last for five thousand years rather > than five hundred." > That commentaries were also composed by Buddhaghosa, as far as I > know. I don't understand that one mechanism (making duration of > Buddha Sasana ten times longer) can so easely be given two different > explanation. ... S: Yes, I've seen this too. Two different but important causes for this 'mechanism' as I see it. Again, I believe Buddhaghosa merely 'compiled' the commentaries, but we can differ in our ideas on this. .... > > My statement is: the Buddha was to modest when he talked about > decline after 500 years. There is not such a destiny of Buddha Sasana > expressable in years. We, Theravadins, had to decide that ourselves, > it depends on our activities. .... S: I have no idea whether the 500 was intended as a 'fixed' number but in any case, I think the Buddha was realistic rather than speaking modestly. When we read (yes, in the commentaries again) about the length of the sasanas of previous Buddhas, some were very long and some were extremely short when the teachings were not rehearsed after the death of those Buddhas. It's quite interesting. OK, our activities such as our discussions here may play a (very limited) role, but it just depends on the understanding whilst conducting any activities. ... > > About that activities, I one ask time more, and then I let it go: > What were your problems with the quote of Nyanaponika, below ? <..> > "There > are many lines of thought, only briefly sketched in Abhidhamma > tradition, that merit detailed treatment in connection with parallel > tendencies in modern thought." … S: Most of the comments are quite general and I wouldn't pick out anything in particular to disagree with. However, I believe that comments like this one which I've just extracted as an example, can easily be interpreted as suggesting ideas along the lines of the ones you recommend (such as at the beginning of this letter or your ones recommending introducing extra social cittas etc or combining the Abhidhamma with science etc:-)). In this sense, I see a 'problem'! This was why I asked you for your own ideas and interpretations which are more relevant for the discussion perhaps. Metta, Sarah ======= 52211 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment sarahprocter... Hi Steve, (Hal and Nina) --- seisen_au wrote: > > S: Yes, this is always a difficult passage. I don't think that > >sevitabba here means that the unwholesome tendency should be pursued > >or followed,but that the path to arahantship should be > >followed, 'acting upon' any craving already arisen. If such craving > >is a condition for insight and enlightenment, it doesn't drag one > >into rebirth at such a time. > > > I'm not sure I understand your last sentence here. Is it the case > that all akusala cittas that are objects of satipatthana can not be a > condition for rebirth? ... S: No, apart from insight and enlightenment cittas, all kusala and akusala cittas lead to the continuation of samsara. When there is insight or enlightenment, the previous akusala cittas which may have acted as condition (including by way of being a present object of insight), have already gone. I agree my comment was not very clear (probably reflecting my unclear thinking on it). I wrote a little more to Ken H and may bring the passage up again when I'm next in Bkk too. I'd be glad to hear your further comments on the passage. Nina may also have more to add if you'd like to post it to her too. (I no longer have the original - rather disorganised recently). Thanks for questioning all these points further and not letting them rest 'til satisfied:). Metta, Sarah p.s Hal, Nina may be able to help us on the source for those two suttas you asked about. Perhaps you'd give her a link to your previous message to which I tried to respond. =========== 52212 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 1:19am Subject: Photos (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG)) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Icaro, (then I seem to wander into a post to Nina, Lodewijk, Phil, > Chris, Sukin, & anyone who hasn't put a pic in the album...) > > > ... Hi Sarah, I did not skip the rest, alway like your way of combining topics and messages to different persons. If I had an electronic picture of myself and if I knew how to upload them, I would do. That's because I want to please people if it not to much against my principles. (And one of my principles is that DSG should not be to personal, to family-like) But I don't have pictures of myself. Perhaps once upon I time I will send one. And Sarah, I will not bother Nina on this moment with the question how and why Buddhaghosa multiplied the the period of existence and decline of Buddha Sasana with the factor ten; perhaps I do later when I have new ideas about the future of Theravada. Metta Joop 52213 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 1:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipaka paradox jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Joop - > ... Hallo Howard, Thanks for your answers, they are rather clear. One question about "time": how does kamma travel trough time? But starting with your explanation of "a cooperative kammic construct" I must say: I'm real sorry but I have lost you. Don't understand what you are saying, not as such and not in relation to buddhistic terminology. On moments like this - when I don't have the emotion of "we have contact" - I doubt if human beings are social beings. Even asking an intelligent question is difficult, but I will try. H: "I consider that the combined kamma of all experiential streams is the reality that a "Creator God" is the substitute for in theistic religions." J: How to imagine a combination, a bundle, of kamma ? H: "You see, and this is a critical matter for understanding my perspective, I do not presume a self-existent external realm of matter and energy, though, of course, I cannot disprove the existence of same. I think of it as projection - a mere "story" embellishing the (multi-)flow of experience, particulary of physical experience." J: Does a "self-existent external realm of matter and energy" not exist or we not able to know it (or anything) as such. My idea of reality is: we can only make a theory, a model, of what we experience and give that the name of reality, reality itself is unknowable. But I get the idea that in your story the process goes from inside to outside, that we project the reality outside is; is that correct? H: "It is my phenomenalist (and non-objectivist) perspective that makes possible my view of kamma (of the many) as creative engine." J: How to imagine a "creative engine"? Are there any (abhi)dhamma- terms for it? Perhaps you will (again, I think you have done it more) what you exactly mean with "phenomenalist" I have had books of and books about Husserl had in my hands but the language what to terrible to read them; and I know what Nyanaponika has written about phenomenoly versus ontology, and I thought I understood it and agreed with it (and disagreed whit BB about it). But I'm not sure if you mean this. H: "Likewise it is that perspective which makes possible for me the acceptance of experience continuing beyond one "lifetime"." J: Is it the "experience" that goes through the frontier between one life and the next? When I think about the kamma-concept I always think: how much information contains the kamma of one human being: megabytes, gigabytes; and is all that information stored in one citta (cuti) ? But I think this question of me has nothing to do with your ideas. If you think you can give answers that possibly can reach me: please do. But if you think that it's hopeless to have contact about this ideas, please say it and we can stop this discussion. Metta Joop 52214 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 1:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ... > In this sense, I see a 'problem'! This was why I asked you for your own ideas > and interpretations which are more relevant for the discussion perhaps. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Dear Sarah Thanks for your answers. Although we don't agree on all points, I'm glad you have taken my question serious now. Some remarks First: I think it was not Ven. Buddhaghosa as a person who created ideas that were not exactly the same as formulated in the Tipitaka. He was a careful man. S: I have no idea whether the 500 was intended as a 'fixed' number but in any case, I think the Buddha was realistic rather than speaking modestly. J: Oh yes, He was. But the point I wanted to make again and again in this thread is: He did not try to be clairvoyant and allknowing when using this number. And "5000 years" is also not an inevitable number: it's NOT A REASON TO BE FATALISTIC (perhaps that's expresses more exact what I mean than the term "pessimistic". S: When we read (yes, in the commentaries again) about the length of the sasanas of previous Buddhas, … J: Perhaps you get upset when I say this but this kind of stories about previous Buddhas I don't take literal but metaphorical. S: OK, our activities such as our discussions here may play a (very limited) role, but it just depends on the understanding whilst conducting any activities. J: That I as I individual consumer can hardly do anything against pollution with CO2, the decrease of biodiversity and other environmental disasters is no reason to do noting. The same can be said about the future of Buddhism: I'm (with you) pessimistic but not fatalistic. A final (?) remark about the Nyanaponika-quote: we agree to disagree. To me the (whole) quote is a kind of program; you see the dangers of the continuity of Theravada. It's up to you (and other participant) but I think this thread can be closed now. Metta Joop 52215 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 2:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: ... > is no reason to do noting. A typo. Of course we should do noting: a main aspect of vipassana- meditation, Mahasi-styleI wanted to say (that's) not a reason to do nothing Joop 52216 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipaka paradox upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 11/8/05 4:24:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Howard, > > Thanks for your answers, they are rather clear. One question > about "time": how does kamma travel trough time? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that "time" is a thing to travel through, but is just our awareness of the sequencing of our experience. And I don't think that kamma is a thing that can persist, travel, or whatever. Kamma occurs - in the moment. It is volition/volitional action. Such action is a condition for future events. Period. "When this is, that is. When this arises, that will arise." ------------------------------------------------ > But starting with your explanation of "a cooperative kammic > construct" I must say: I'm real sorry but I have lost you. Don't > understand what you are saying, not as such and not in relation to > buddhistic terminology. > On moments like this - when I don't have the emotion of "we have > contact" - I doubt if human beings are social beings. > Even asking an intelligent question is difficult, but I will try. > > H: "I consider that the combined kamma of all experiential streams is > the reality that a "Creator God" is the substitute for in theistic > religions." > J: How to imagine a combination, a bundle, of kamma ? ------------------------------------------ Howard: That is just a way of speaking. I'm talking about the effect of many acts of kamma by many "beings". Imagine a group 3 or 4 of metal workers hammering on the same large, flat iron disk, knocking it into shape. Each does his own part, each has his own effect, and the end-result is the effect of all the actions involved. ------------------------------------------ > > H: "You see, and this is a critical matter for understanding my > perspective, I do not presume a self-existent external realm of > matter and energy, though, of course, I cannot disprove the existence > of same. I think of it as projection - a mere "story" embellishing > the (multi-)flow of experience, particulary of physical experience." > J: Does a "self-existent external realm of matter and energy" not > exist or we not able to know it (or anything) as such. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, that is, in principle, unknowable, because it is only content of experience itself that is known. I personally believe however, that there is nothing beyond or behind the seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelled, or cognized, and there being no knowing of it if there were, it might just as well be dismissed as being "beyond range". One qualification, though: Part of what is seen, heard, cognized, and sensed, an important and common aspect of our experience, strongly dictates a non-solipsist perspective, and, accordingly, I believe that reality consists of a multitude of interacting, mutually reflecting experiential streams, and not just "mine". ------------------------------------------ My idea of > > reality is: we can only make a theory, a model, of what we experience > and give that the name of reality, reality itself is unknowable. But > I get the idea that in your story the process goes from inside to > outside, that we project the reality outside is; is that correct? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, yes, that sounds right. ------------------------------------------ > > H: "It is my phenomenalist (and non-objectivist) perspective that > makes possible my view of kamma (of the many) as creative engine." > J: How to imagine a "creative engine"? Are there any (abhi)dhamma- > terms for it? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Sankhara is a constructor, a fabricator. Cetana and other sankharic operations are exactly fabricating phenomena. What they fabricate is experience. ------------------------------------------ > Perhaps you will (again, I think you have done it more) what you > exactly mean with "phenomenalist" I have had books of and books about > Husserl had in my hands but the language what to terrible to read > them; and I know what Nyanaponika has written about phenomenoly > versus ontology, and I thought I understood it and agreed with it > (and disagreed whit BB about it). But I'm not sure if you mean this. -------------------------------------------- Howard: It's related, but may not be the same. When I speak of phenomenalism, I mean the proposition that all that can be known to occur is what lies within the range of experience itself. In the technical philosphical sense, phenomena are not "things", but are elements of experience. -------------------------------------------- > > H: "Likewise it is that perspective which makes possible for me the > acceptance of experience continuing beyond one "lifetime"." > J: Is it the "experience" that goes through the frontier between one > life and the next? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I view rebirth like a TV channel change. ----------------------------------------- When I think about the kamma-concept I always > > think: how much information contains the kamma of one human being: > megabytes, gigabytes; and is all that information stored in one citta > (cuti) ? But I think this question of me has nothing to do with your > ideas. ----------------------------------------- Howard: No, it doesn't. My idea of kamma and kammic result is not a matter of substance and storage. It is a matter of events and consequent events. ----------------------------------------- > > If you think you can give answers that possibly can reach me: please > do. But if you think that it's hopeless to have contact about this > ideas, please say it and we can stop this discussion. ------------------------------------------- Howard: While I don't think it is possible to speak about this in a really adequate way, still it is possible to say something. I hope that what I've said is a little clarifying. Unfortunately, I probably can't do much better than this. I also don't think I want to pursue it much further. These days I prefer to avoid a lot of theorizing, and, rather, to just look at what arises, to spend more time in formal and informal "meditation", and less in the development of theory. Ideas are so easy to cling to, especially for us "slaves to intellect"! Better to let go of theories. Better to relinquish. ------------------------------------------- > > Metta > > Joop > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52217 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" phamdluan2000 Dear Tep, I think we have 2 problems here: 1. The problem for you is that you find difficult to understand how one can have free-will (if ever such a thing exists) without having the feeling of self. Am I wrong in interpreting you ? 2. The problem for me is that I find difficult to understand this statement << THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT >> What does it mean? Can something be conditioned and not << wholly conditioned >> at the same time ? Either you are conditioned or you are not conditioned . You cannot be << half >> conditioned, can you? :-)) I recopy the paragraph I quoted: << All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire. >> So it means I have some freedom in my action, isn't it? If this were the case then TO SOME EXTENT IS MY FREEDOM? For example, I was << conditioned >> to be a terrorist. Being a terrorist, I can use either a gun or ... an atomic bomb if ever such a weapon falling in my hand! :-)) You see the enormous difference in each case. :-)) Best regards, KKT ====================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, KKT ( Howard, Swee, Chris, and Nina) - You introduced the idea called " free will " and it received good response. But you did not have time to reply to Howard (#48425). Per our off-list discussion you have agreed to continue the thread. I think it might be a good idea for me to give a summary of this thread to make it easier for you to take over. It all started with message # 48324 that Christine wrote to initiate a discussion on the meaning of " self " in Dhp {379; 380} : Chris: Being familiar with the Useful Posts on Anatta, with the emphasis on "no control", I found these two verses in the Dhammapada raised some questions in my mind. They seem to indicate it is not only possible, but desirable, to 'control' your own self. Any comments? "By self do you censure yourself. By self do you examine yourself. Self-guarded and mindful, O bhikkhu, you will live happily." (379) "Self, indeed, is the protector of self. Self, indeed, is one's refuge. Control, therefore, your own self as a merchant controls a noble steed." (380) Tep: There are several comments in dsg messages # 48340(Nina), 48384(Swee), 48391(Phamdluan or KKT), 48399(Howard), 48403 (Phamdluan), 48426(Swee), 49677(Sarah), and 48425 (Howard). The following passages are selected from these messages; please go to the original ones if you want all details. N: I know some people wonder about the meaning when they see these texts. The Buddha also spoke in conventional language when exhorting people. Just as we do now in daily life. But taking into account the whole context of the Tipitaka we do not misunderstand such words. ... ... So long as we understand that it is pannaa and sati that control. But do we really? .......... Swee: "NO CONTROL" is one extreme view. "A SELF THAT CONTROLS" is another extreme view. There is a middle ground to be sought after. ........... KKT : To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? .............. Howard to KKT : Please, where did he teach that? .............. KKT: Here is an extract from "The Message of the Buddha" by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory from Determinism, he also faced the question of free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told him that he was of the opinion that there was no free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and asked him how he could say such a thing when he himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up to the Buddha and walk away from him. On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is such a thing as 'an element of initiative'(arabbha-dhatu), ... ... and that this showed that THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). ... .... Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism UPHELD A THEORY OF NON- DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. .................. Swee: If free-will were "wholly conditioned", then there would be no new kamma created, we would not have been reborn endlessly, and we would not even need to come to DSG to seek for answers. But free-will is not "wholly conditioned". If you are truthful enough to yourself, you know that. Yet free-will is not self, nor implies a self. "Free-will" is just a series of mental actions over a lifetime. ................. Sarah:The word translated as free-will in KKT's post or initiative in the PTS translation is aarabbhadhaatu and PTS gives a note: aarabbha, gerund of aaraadheti, to set on foot; dhaatu, element. I'd prefer to say that the Buddha taught us that all dhammas, all elements are conditioned but not pre-determined. It is not fatalistic because good thoughts and deeds (as well as bad ones of course) are accumulated and bring results. However, 'free-will' is a misnomer as it suggests there is 'something' apart from conditioned dhammas, whereas the Buddha taught that the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbana. ............... Howard : This is a very complete and interesting answer. There is no question that there is willing. But our willing is always conditioned at least by present and past circumstances in our individual mindstreams, don't you think? Typically, a primary condition for it is tanha, but certainly not always. As to "free" will, well, that is a matter of what one means by 'free'. If it means unconditioned, I think that is not so. All ordinary mental operations, including cetana, are conditioned. In that regard, I'm not clear on the meaning of a theory of *non- deterministic* causal conditioning presented along with a notion of free will by the Buddha that you mention at the end of your post (copied below). Does "non-deterministic" imply random? And, BTW, what sort of "free will" that is random and unconditioned is desirable to anyone? If nothing else, we require that our willing, to be valued by us, be conditioned by our wishes (whether the wishes are mired in self or are a chanda free of self), don't we? ................ Tep: You started an interesting thread by introducing "free will" that is not a self, and yet it is not easy to understand. Is this concept related to the "original citta" that is not contaminated by defilements? Warm regards, Tep KKT: Thank you very much for your interest in this topic. I'm sorry for the last time I could not follow up this topic due to not having time. Maybe the best way to start again this topic is to explain what I've raised in my first post in order to everybody to fully understand what I wrote: 1. << To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. >> I think everybody understands this statement. As for the proof of this statement, see the PS. 2. << To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. >> Because Conditioned Genesis excludes all existence of a self. Does everybody agree with this explanation? 3. << So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. >> This is the conclusion. 4. << But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! >> This phrase needs a little bit of explanation: by FREE-WILL I mean there is some initiative, some freedom in action, something not pre-determined that happens in a way that would be called << OUT OF THE BLUE >> ! :-)) Therefore if WILL is CONDITIONED then it cannot be FREE, can it? 5. << So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? >> This is the problem I've raised. I think we can restart the thread from this point. Best regards, KKT PS. I recopy my full answer to the question of Howard about the proof of the fact that the Buddha taught free-will: KKT: To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. Howard: Please, where did he teach that? KKT: Here is an extract from "The Message of the Buddha" by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory from Determinism, he also faced the question of free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told him that he was of the opinion that there was no free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and asked him how he could say such a thing when he himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up to the Buddha and walk away from him. On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is such a thing as 'an element of initiative' (arabbha-dhatu), and as a result one can observe beings acting with initiative and this says the Buddha is what is called 'the free-will of people' (sattanam atta-karo). He also goes on to say that there is 'an element of origination' (nikkama-dhatu), an 'element of endeavour' (parakkama-dhatu), an 'element of strength' (thama-dhatu) and an 'element of perseverance' (thiti-dhatu) and an 'element of volitional effort' (upakkama-dhatu), which makes beings of their own accord act in various ways, and that this showed that THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire. Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. As a result Buddhism has been represented by some Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma as well as the doctrine of causation. 52218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg ]Q. : just back. nilovg Dear Htoo, op 07-11-2005 23:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: now. If one does not understand this moment, one does not study > Abhidhamma.> > > I like that sentence. If one does not understand this moment then there > will not be any pannaa or wisdom. If there is no wisdom or pannaa then > there is no right understanding. If there is no right understanding > then there is no other path-factors. If there is no path-factors then > there is not approaching nibbana at all. When nibbana is not approaching > then one is not going to coolness but to hotness that is hotness of > sufferings and endless sufferings. ------- N: Thanks for your sympathetic mails. I like your elaboration on paññaa, and that without right understanding there are no other Path factors. Nina 52219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, I am glad you are active and well. I wrote to James already. Your questions are inspirinng and touch on our recent discussions. op 08-11-2005 01:44 schreef Phil op philco777@...: .... Therefore, > the >> thinking on account of what was seen, thus, the thinking of people > and >> things, hides the truth. > > I'm happy to hear this. The other day in one of the talks from > last year in India, I heard A. Sujin say that it is the sense door > that covers the mind door process, and it didn't make sense. Perhaps > she meant to say "is covered by" or perhaps I misheard. ------------- N: In another sense we can say that the sense-door processes hide the mind-door process so long as Vipassana ña.na has not been reached. This is in another context. When we see, it seems that we see at once people and things, but we are misled. There are several processes: seeing sees only colour, and the process in which seeing occurs is followed by a mind-door process of cittas (with bhavangacittas in between) that also experience visible object. However, we have no notion of this, it seems that there is seeing that lasts for while. We do not know that there are mind-door processes of cittas. We have some idea of thinking about things, but we do not have a precise understanding of different processes. True, thinking arises in a mind-door process, but we should not forget that mind-door processes of cittas also experience visible object, sound, etc. without thinking about them. At this moment the mind-door process of cittas is hidden or covered up by the sense-door processes, we do not have a precise understanding of them. When the first stage of insight arises, paññaa realizes the characteristics of naama and ruupa and this occurs in different mind-door processes. Thus, also ruupa is clearly known in a mind-door process, just as clearly as it is known by cittas arising in a sense-door process. At such moments we can say that the sense-door process is as it were covered up by the mind-door process. Then it is understood what the mind-door process is. ------- Ph: I think I heard > from you that there is lobha even in the act of seeing, not only in > the response that follows. --------- N: Seeing is vipaakacitta and it is not accompanied by lobha. Lobha can arise afterwards, during the javanacittas. But these arise in the same process as seeing. I am taking note of your other question. Nina. 52220 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. philofillet HI Azita (and Nina at end) > > > > When you are settled in and caught up with your e-mails, I > would > > like to ask you about something else I have been hearing a lot - > we > > cannot know akusala cetasikas such as lobha or dosa until we know > > nama from rupa. A very important point but I had some doubts about > > it. I will ask you later, quoting a part of a discussion between > you > > and A. Sujin in which it seems that you also had some doubts... > > > Azita: Nina may well have lots more to say, however, here goes. > > its my understanding that unless wisdom can know nama from rupa, > which are very different from ea other, then it cannot distinguish > one nama from another, which are not so different one from the > other, by comparison. can't locate the relevant info at this > moment - its about the stages of insight. > here's a very crude example: if you don't know swimming from > fishing, then how can you know one style of swimming from another eg > freestyle from backstroke. Hmmm. That metaphor doesn't *quite* click with me, Azita, but I know what you mean. Don't get me wrong - I have had inklings of understanding how it is not as easy as we might think to know nama from rupa - pretty strong inklings. And we know that this is a stage of insight that we can aspire to, it is a "tender" insight, the first stage of insight. But I personally think it is a bit dangerous to think that there cannot now be helpful recognition/awareness of dosa, for instance. To think that we have to wait until we have achieved stages of insight until we can recognize dosa and respond to it with right attention. For example, tonight I heard Betty, I think (Shakti?) talking about taking the bus in India, how it's all dosa, with the heat and the dirt and the noise, and while I've never been on a bus in India, I've certainly had days that were all heat and dirt and noise, mentally speaking. A solid wall of dosa that seemed recognizable. Now, A. Sujin's response to Betty (?) was to tell her that there wasn't seeing of visible object at such times, and Betty (?) said that she knew that, that it was all dosa. And again, the suggestion from A.Sujin was that the thing to do here would be to have satipatthana, to see visible object. Never saying "you should have sati now", of course but there was no consideration of what to do with all that dosa, which certainly clear and present on such days. We here that until there is that first stage of insight, knowing nama and rupa, any awareness of lobha or dosa will be "my lobha, my dosa" So what? We're not sotapanna, so I think there could be talk of a wholesome response (or at least a less unwholesome response) to all that dosa even if we're just thinking about it with self. In other words, I think there can be talk of perfections of patience and energy and equanimity *even when there is not satipatthana* Because if we don't respond wisely to all that dosa, there could be very severe kamma consequences. I think we can benefit from hearing teachings that stress the importance of abstaining from akusala even if there is self involved. I have heard A. Sujin say that she is not concerned about akusala. I can only assume that she is not familiar with akusala of the degree that I am prone to, tempted to constantly. Last night I heard Nina say that for the perfections there cannot be self - and I think that is too hard, asking too much. We have a long, long way to go until there is such satipatthana, and I think perfections can help us even without satipatthana, and that awareness of dosa or lobha can be condition for an arising of this kind of not-so-sublime perfection. > > i realise akusala and kusala are different, but can you tell the > difference at the very moment of their arising without highly > developed panna. if this was the case, then why would panna need to > know rupa, isnt it kusala and akusala that keeps one in samsara? > [simply put]. Again, I get confused. Someone asks A. Sujin about the difference between chanda and lobha, and she says one is kusala and the other is akusala, and there is a suggestion that we should just know this, it's obvious. And yet elsewhere she says that we cannot know kusala from akusala until we have reached that first stage of insight of knowing nama from rupa. I hope it doesn't sound like I am nitpicking. I am being helped a lot by these talks and I think these points where it seems there isn't an exact consistency are helpful for developing detachment. So I'm not asking for explanations about this, just sharing some points I've been pondering. Nina, I've gotten into this sooner than I expected. I know you're getting settled in so please don't feel any pressure to get back on this now. I really am not asking for answers. There's no hurry for me to work this kind of thing out. Just having it come up every once in awhile for reflection is enough. Phil > 52221 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina > Hi Phil, > I am glad you are active and well. I wrote to James already. > Your questions are inspirinng and touch on our recent discussions. Our posts just crossed paths! Thanks for your response. That will be more than enough for me to ponder. No need for a response now to the thing I just posted. Phil 52222 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" buddhistmedi... Dear KKT (Andrew, Howard and others) - Thank you very much for your earnest effort to communicate and the two messages(#52208 and # 52217) that you wrote to explain the term "free will". >KKT: >1. << To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. >> I think everybody understands this statement. As for the proof of this statement, see the PS. >2. << To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. >> >Because Conditioned Genesis excludes all existence of a self. Does everybody agree with this explanation? >3. << So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. >> This is the conclusion. 4. << But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! >> This phrase needs a little bit of explanation: by FREE-WILL I mean there is some initiative, some freedom in action, something not pre-determined that happens in a way that would be called << OUT OF THE BLUE >> ! :-)) Therefore if WILL is CONDITIONED then it cannot be FREE, can it? >5. << So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and ONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? >> >This is the problem I've raised. >I think we can restart the thread from this point. ................................................ Tep: Sure, it is a good starting point after your summary. I understand the two extremes in 1. and 2., and I agree that the "Conditioned Genesis excludes all existence of a self". BUT I don't follow your logic in 3. It is puzzling why you mix the two extremes (like water and fire) and call the result "middle path" !! You are trying to define free-will in 4. It is not yet clear to me. The Pali for "will" is 'chanda' (= intention, resolution, will, desire for, wish for, and delight in, according to the PTS Dictionary); 'Cetana' also means "will" (PTS: state of ceto in action, thinking as active thought, intention, purpose, will). But 'cetana' is not exactly the same as 'chanda' in the sense of 'state of ceto in action'. If we choose "will" to mean 'state of ceto in action', then "free-will" may mean a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind. Free-will in this sense is free, and it also is conditioned because it is not Nibbana. For example, the Buddha's Teachings always condition a 'state of ceto in action' in me to practice according to the eightfold Path. My mind is certainly free to choose to follow the Dhamma, yet this 'state of ceto in action' is conditioned by the Teachings. That's just one possibility, depending on how you interpret what "will" and "free" mean to you. ................................ Tep: To measure my understanding you further asked the following questions : >KKT: > 1. The problem for you is that you find difficult to understand how one can have free-will (if ever such a thing exists) without having the feeling of self. Am I wrong in interpreting you ? >2. The problem for me is that I find difficult to understand this statement << THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT >> >What does it mean? Can something be conditioned and not << wholly conditioned >> at the same time ? >Either you are conditioned or you are not conditioned . You cannot be << half >> conditioned, can you? :-)) .......................... Tep: Whew! It may be tough to pass your test, but I'll try. :-)) 1. Yes, you are. I don't think that "free-will" corresponds with self (given my interpretation that "free-will" means a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind). Since it is a conditioned dhamma, it is not a self. 2. But so far you have not clearly defined "free-will" yet. Do you mean "the reality of human freedom"? Based on my interpretation of the free-will, the degree of conditionality can vary from 0 to 100%. Being half conditioned by the Buddha's Teachings may mean that the 'ceto in action' (mind) is half-way between no saddha and full saddha. Well, if it does not make sense to you, I will surely understand. :-)) ............................. >KKT: >I recopy the paragraph I quoted: << All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire.>> >So it means I have some freedom in my action, isn't it? >If this were the case then TO SOME EXTENT IS MY FREEDOM? For example, I was << conditioned >> to be a terrorist. Being a terrorist, I can use either a gun or ... an atomic bomb if ever such a weapon falling in my hand! :-)) > You see the enormous difference in each case. :-)) .......................... Tep : With free-will, the intention or state of mind that is free to choose a path (kusala or not), we always have a freedom of choice. And, as you have observed, depending on our chices, the results can be drastically different. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I think we have 2 problems here: > > 1. The problem for you is that > you find difficult to understand > how one can have free-will > (if ever such a thing exists) > without having the feeling of self. > Am I wrong in interpreting you ? > > 2. The problem for me is that > I find difficult to understand > this statement > << THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY > SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT >> > > What does it mean? > Can something be conditioned > and not << wholly conditioned >> > at the same time ? (snipped) 52223 From: nina Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 11:31am Subject: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, But Sawong: Can satipatthåna arise in a sense-door process? Sujin: Let us speak about the different processes. At this moment there is an eye-door process and an ear-door process. Can sati arise? When sati of satipatthåna arises, of what characteristic of reality is it aware? But Sawong: I would like to ask whether satipaììhåna can occur during the kusala javana-cittas of the eye-door process or the ear-door process? [2] Sujin: I would like to explain that if there is paññå that understands the dhammas appearing at this moment, it can realize that, when there is seeing, there is visible object that appears, and that the citta which sees at this moment is a reality that experiences. Can satipatthåna arise? At this moment I do not speak about the theory, I speak about the characteristics that really appear and that can be understood. If someone would ask whether satipatthåna could arise in a sense-door process, he should understand, while seeing now, that seeing arises in a sense-door process. It is the same in the case of hearing, or the experience of softness, hardness, cold or heat through the bodysense at this moment. These experiences arise in sense-door processes. Can satipatthåna arise? We should carefully consider and investigate the Dhamma we have heard. It is not sufficient to just listen and to agree with what one has heard. We must investigate whether it is the truth we have heard or not. If satipatthåna arises now of what is it aware? If satipatthåna does not arise, the nåma and rúpa of just a moment ago have fallen away, but people did not derive any benefit from them since they did not realize the true nature of those dhammas. If satipatthåna does arise, it is not aware of anything else but the characteristic of the reality that is appearing at this moment through whatever doorway. When satipatthåna arising with mahå-kusala citta [3] in a mind-door process knows a characteristic of a reality appearing through one of the six doorways, it does not arise in the same process as that reality. When satipaììhåna arising in a mind-door process investigates a characteristic of rúpa, it realizes rúpa that appears through one of the sensedoors. If satipatthåna is aware of a nåma dhamma, it knows a nåma that arose and fell away. That nåma arose and fell away, but that characteristic still appears, so that it can be studied and correctly understood as a characteristic of nåma dhamma, different from rúpa dhamma. The arising and falling away of realities is extremely rapid. Is there anybody who can, while there is seeing, discern the eye-door process that has fallen away, the bhavanga-cittas that arise in between sense-door process and mind-door process, and the mind-door process cittas that experience what appeared through the eye-door? Is there anybody who can distinguish between the sense-door process and the mind-door process? When softness or hardness is appearing, and sati is aware of the characteristic that appears, can anybody tell through which doorway that characteristic appears? The paññå that can distinguish the difference between the mind-door and the sense-door must be insight-knowledge, vipassanå ñåna [4]. If one asks a person who studies the Dhamma in which kinds of processes mahå-kusala citta can arise, the answer is in the sense-door processes and in the mind-door process. It can be known when mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå arises in a sense-door process, because at that moment paññå knows a characteristic of rúpa. When satipatthåna is aware and studies the characteristics of realities that appear so that they can be understood, it isn¹t that there are no realities appearing through the sense-doors. When satipatthåna arises in a mind-door process it can also arise alternately in a sense-door process [5] . Paññå that accompanies kusala citta arising in a mind-door process can gradually have more understanding of realities, and it can also penetrate the true nature of rúpa. ------- Footnotes: 2. In the sense-door processes and in the mind-door process there are, in the case of non-arahats, seven javana-cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas that experience the object in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. 3.The term mahå-kusala citta is used for kusala citta of the sense sphere. Mahå-kusala citta can be accompanied by paññå or unaccompanied by paññå. When there are conditions, mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå can arise also in a sense-door process. 4. There are several stages of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa. The first stage is distinguishing the difference between nåma and rúpa and this arises in a mind-door process. Rúpa can be known through a sense-door and through the mind-door, and nåma can only be known through the mind-door. Thus, the difference between nåma and rúpa is known through the mind-door. Now, at this moment, the mind-door is covered up by the sense-doors, but at that stage of insight knowledge it is understood what the mind-door is. Acharn Sujin explains in ³A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Part V, Ch 2, The Stages of Insight: ³The rúpas which are sense-objects are experienced through the corresponding sense-doors and after each sense-door process the object is experienced through the mind-door. However, when there is no vipassanå ñåna, insight knowledge, the mind-door process does not appear, it is as it were hidden by the sense objects experienced in the sense-door processes. At the moments of vipassanå ñåna, rúpas appear very clearly through the mind-door, and at that moment the mind-door hides as it were the sense-doors. Then the situation is opposite to the moments when there is no vipassanå ñåna.² 5. The different processes arise one after the other extremely rapidly. ****** Nina. 52224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Sarah. nilovg Hi Sarah, Thank you, I also had to laugh. Tell Jon that all my recordings are fine, there was another speed button at the back of my recorder I had overlooked and when turning it, the speed is fine. Yes, there are many pittfalls in India for elderly people, like a decads old bus on the airfield, where the steps were far too high and nothing to hold on except something that fell forward. Every day there was some vipaaka, but all problems were overcome. Also many cars drive suddenly backwards, like in Kuru, that gave me a shock, Howard. op 08-11-2005 05:42 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: I'm feeling 'happy again', now my voice is back, my cough gone and able to > get back to my exercise routines. -- N: I am sorry you started coughing. That is India. -------- S: Nina, welcome back and thx for sending a message so quickly and updating > me on your news. Glad to hear you're back safely. 'The most important > thing is understanding'. I wrote a post with this as the subject > heading...it was KS's last reminder to us as we left the group. N: Looking forward hearing it on the tape. I am very interested, id Phil or anyone keep the text? Do not bother, you are busy enough. I kept your marks of messages, but I am afraid there will be lack of time looking them all up! ------ S: "When we see the benefit of right understanding of whatever reality > appears, there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness, even when it > seems that we are not "in the mood" for it." (S: such as when we're down > in the dumps or jumping for joy....realities are just as real). ----- N: Yes, as she often said: develop it, develop it now! No matter how confusing our surroundings are, like my host and hostess using three cellphones during dinner after other guests were on their way and their car was mobbed by an angry crowd. Noise all around, many, many colours, can it be more confusing? Never mind. Such is daily life. ------- S:. I was pretty sick on return and didn't > mark any posts for you as a result. --- N: As you said, James does not even know a FRACTION of what we had to go through. In Kashmir I had a leaking hot water bottle at night, my whole bed was wet and we had to call for help. But that is only a small matter. ------- Nina. 52225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, Soon I shall get to answer you. When you listen you will find that Kh Sujin will not always answer straight, she likes to lead the hearer to the present moment, away from theory. People will not get the answers they expect, they may feel confused. Or she will pose a counter question to make you think. BTW perfections are not perfections without satipatthana. I asked her: is nimitta concept or reality, and she did not want to answer. Why? Because we cling to words, such as concept or reality, and then we always, always get stuck into theory. She exhorts us: be aware of the reality now like seeing, and then you will know the answer. There were long discussions on the list: concept or reality, but these do not really help us. Nina. op 08-11-2005 15:50 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Nina, I've gotten into this sooner than I expected. I know you're > getting settled in so please don't feel any pressure to get back on > this now. I really am not asking for answers. There's no hurry for > me to work this kind of thing out. Just having it come up every once > in awhile for reflection is enough. 52226 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg ]Q. : just back. htootintnaing ------- N: Thanks for your sympathetic mails. I like your elaboration on paññaa, and that without right understanding there are no other Path factors. Nina ------------------- Dear Nina, I mean true path-factors. Cetasika-wise they may arise without pannaa. you are good at cetasikas. With respect, Htoo Naing 52227 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 0:24pm Subject: 'A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity ...' Ajahn Sujato christine_fo... Hello all, I'm not sure if this has been posted before here: 'A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity in the Satipatthana Sutta' by Ajahn Sujato 'The Satipatthana Sutta is the most influential Buddhist discourse in modern Theravada meditation. Yet rarely have modern expositions of satipatthana acknowledged the simple fact that there are several sectarian versions of the satipatthana Sutta. These share much in common, yet differ in key points. This is the first full-scale study encompassing all existing versions of the Satipatthana sutta, examining its place within the dynamic evolution of the Buddhist scriptures and the Indian meditative tradition as a whole'. http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?cid=19&lid=335 An additional help is this kind message from Bhikkhu Pesala: "I compressed the PDF and uploaded it to my website as a self- extracting 7-zip archive at: http://aimwell.org/assets/A_History_of_Mindfulness.exe (2.05 Mbytes instead of 4.25). Windows users who want it can download this copy to save the load on the BSWA server. (I found it was quite slow to download from there)". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 52228 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Friend Htoo - > > I know beyond words that you are my dhamma friend because I > missed you while you were gone. Yet, I have been asked why Htoo > and I always "quarrel" (the exact word as used by the interogator). --------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply to my late reply. Now it is done. I agree. Quarrelling is quarrelling and friends are friends, :-)). The Buddha SAID 'Ananda, do not be helpless when Tathagata is gone. Do not feel like teacher is gone. After my passing away 'there are Dhamma and Vinaya'. They will be the teacher'. This is my 're-writing' what has been in Suttas. Key word here is 'Dhamma and Vinaya'. They are The Buddha's own words and they came out from the lips of The Buddha Siddhattha Gotama. The Buddha did not say 'Sutta' or 'Abhidhammaa'. The Buddha did not say 'I taught you Suttas'. Three pitakas or 3 baskets are compilations at Buddhists' Council. The Buddha did not allow anything to add to 'Dhamma and Vinaya'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Dhamma is very close to Abhidhamma. But not close to Sutta, which means thread. 52229 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 1:09pm Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" phamdluan2000 Dear Tep, Very interesting, Tep. :-)) I think the difficulty is in the understanding of the term Free-Will. You've given a very clear definition of Free-Will: 1. FREE-WILL = THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Free-will is a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind in order to << choose >>. With this definition, it perfectly makes sense that free-will is conditioned and not << wholly conditioned >> at the same time. For example, I'm conditioned to be in a state with 4 choices A, B, C, D. In this << conditioned >> state, I have the << freedom to choose >> either A or B or C or D. This is my free-will! :-)) The freedom to choose in any situation! Now I have 2 other questions: First, can we have a second definition of Free-Will: 2. FREE-WILL = THE CAPACITY TO CONTROL. To figure out the meaning of this definition, I give an example from the Parinibbana Sutta in which the Buddha talked to Ananda: 'Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.' In this example, the Buddha has the Free-Will, if he so desired, to remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. Second, I want to return to the first definition of Free-Will. In the given example, when I choose A among the 4 choices A, B, C, D, is this choice really comes << OUT OF THE BLUE >> or is it << PRE-DETERMINED >> by other conditions? I mean is this choice the result of some circumstances which lead me to choose A? In this case, is this really free-will? Best regards, KKT ================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear KKT (Andrew, Howard and others) - Thank you very much for your earnest effort to communicate and the two messages(#52208 and # 52217) that you wrote to explain the term "free will". >KKT: >1. << To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. >> I think everybody understands this statement. As for the proof of this statement, see the PS. >2. << To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. >> >Because Conditioned Genesis excludes all existence of a self. Does everybody agree with this explanation? >3. << So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. >> This is the conclusion. 4. << But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! >> This phrase needs a little bit of explanation: by FREE-WILL I mean there is some initiative, some freedom in action, something not pre-determined that happens in a way that would be called << OUT OF THE BLUE >> ! :-)) Therefore if WILL is CONDITIONED then it cannot be FREE, can it? >5. << So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and ONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? >> >This is the problem I've raised. >I think we can restart the thread from this point. ................................................ Tep: Sure, it is a good starting point after your summary. I understand the two extremes in 1. and 2., and I agree that the "Conditioned Genesis excludes all existence of a self". BUT I don't follow your logic in 3. It is puzzling why you mix the two extremes (like water and fire) and call the result "middle path" !! You are trying to define free-will in 4. It is not yet clear to me. The Pali for "will" is 'chanda' (= intention, resolution, will, desire for, wish for, and delight in, according to the PTS Dictionary); 'Cetana' also means "will" (PTS: state of ceto in action, thinking as active thought, intention, purpose, will). But 'cetana' is not exactly the same as 'chanda' in the sense of 'state of ceto in action'. If we choose "will" to mean 'state of ceto in action', then "free-will" may mean a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind. Free-will in this sense is free, and it also is conditioned because it is not Nibbana. For example, the Buddha's Teachings always condition a 'state of ceto in action' in me to practice according to the eightfold Path. My mind is certainly free to choose to follow the Dhamma, yet this 'state of ceto in action' is conditioned by the Teachings. That's just one possibility, depending on how you interpret what "will" and "free" mean to you. ................................ Tep: To measure my understanding you further asked the following questions : >KKT: > 1. The problem for you is that you find difficult to understand how one can have free-will (if ever such a thing exists) without havingthe feeling of self. Am I wrong in interpreting you ? >2. The problem for me is that I find difficult to understand this statement << THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT >> >What does it mean? Can something be conditioned and not << wholly conditioned >> at the same time ? >Either you are conditioned or you are not conditioned . You cannot be << half >> conditioned, can you? :-)) .......................... Tep: Whew! It may be tough to pass your test, but I'll try. :-)) 1. Yes, you are. I don't think that "free-will" corresponds with self (given my interpretation that "free-will" means a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind). Since it is a conditioned dhamma, it is not a self. 2. But so far you have not clearly defined "free-will" yet. Do you mean "the reality of human freedom"? Based on my interpretation of the free-will, the degree of conditionality can vary from 0 to 100%. Being half conditioned by the Buddha's Teachings may mean that the 'ceto in action' (mind) is half-way between no saddha and full saddha. Well, if it does not make sense to you, I will surely understand. :- )) ............................. >KKT: >I recopy the paragraph I quoted: << All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire.>> >So it means I have some freedom in my action, isn't it? >If this were the case then TO SOME EXTENT IS MY FREEDOM? For example, I was << conditioned >> to be a terrorist. Being a terrorist, I can use either a gun or ... an atomic bomb if ever such a weapon falling in my hand! :-)) > You see the enormous difference in each case. :-)) .......................... Tep : With free-will, the intention or state of mind that is free to choose a path (kusala or not), we always have a freedom of choice. And, as you have observed, depending on our chices, the results can be drastically different. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I think we have 2 problems here: > > 1. The problem for you is that > you find difficult to understand > how one can have free-will > (if ever such a thing exists) > without having the feeling of self. > Am I wrong in interpreting you ? > > 2. The problem for me is that > I find difficult to understand > this statement > << THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY > SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT >> > > What does it mean? > Can something be conditioned > and not << wholly conditioned >> > at the same time ? (snipped) 52230 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 1:48pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - It is a nice relief to me when a thread is cleanly wrapped up. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply to my late reply. Now it is done. I agree. > > Quarrelling is quarrelling and friends are friends, :-)). > (snipped). > > The Buddha did not allow anything to add to 'Dhamma and Vinaya'. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Dhamma is very close to Abhidhamma. But not close to Sutta, which > means thread. > Firends should not be afraid to speak their minds. So we will continue to disagree and agree, just like this time. Warm regards, Tep ======= 52231 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina > Soon I shall get to answer you. > When you listen you will find that Kh Sujin will not always answer straight, > she likes to lead the hearer to the present moment, away from theory. Yes, I appreciate this. I think she helps people to not settle in comfortably with their favourite pieces of theory. That is very helpful. Keeps the mind flexible and open, I think. And she probably knows when a questioner is asking with a lot of lobha for an answer - not in the penetrative way that the Buddha saw into questioners, of course, but in a more common-sense way. People > will not get the answers they expect, they may feel confused. Or she will > pose a counter question to make you think. Yes, I don't mind being confused. No hurry to find answers. We can't know more than we know right now. When we try too hard, it takes us from the present moment. I do appreciate that. > BTW perfections are not perfections without satipatthana. Yes, not perfections. But for me, everything about Dhamma is only thinking, thinking, thinking. No satipatthana yet. So I should have said that thinking about the perfections can be very helpful in daily life - it is not the actual perfections, not the direct knowing of the arising of kusala. Just thinking. But still helpful. I don't mind if thinking about being a patient or energetic or friendly person is wrong view. I need my crutches at times, for now. Understanding will arise, or it won't arise, to help me out of this accumulated habit, this wrong view. Phil 52232 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" buddhistmedi... Dear KKT (Sarah, Howard, Swee, and others..) - You might not have imagined that your post (# 52229) really taught me about what peaceful dhamma discussion means. Indeed, any worthwhile discussion should (always) encourage a spirit of cooperation that is free from competition (even a tiny bit). Thank you for teaching me that. KKT : You've given a very clear definition of Free-Will: 1. FREE-WILL = THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Free-will is a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind in order to << choose >>. With this definition, it perfectly makes sense that free-will is conditioned and not << wholly conditioned >> at the same time. Tep: Thank you. ............................. KKT: First, can we have a second definition of Free-Will: 2. FREE-WILL = THE CAPACITY TO CONTROL. To figure out the meaning of this definition, I give an example from the Parinibbana Sutta in which the Buddha talked to Ananda: 'Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.' In this example, the Buddha has the Free-Will, if he so desired, to remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. Tep: So you are saying that our Blessed One had the "Capacity to Control" through his perfected psychic powers such that he could, if so desired, "remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it" ? But, can I ask you two questions? 1. Did the Buddha control the nama & rupa, or what else ? 2. How is such a control related to "will" and "free" ? ........................................ KKT : Second, I want to return to the first definition of Free-Will. In the given example, when I choose A among the 4 choices A, B, C, D, is this choice really comes << OUT OF THE BLUE >> or is it << PRE-DETERMINED >> by other conditions? I mean is this choice the result of some circumstances which lead me to choose A? In this case, is this really free-will? Tep: Excellent question ! The intention(will) of "choosing A" is also conditioned by some circumstances "upstream" along a chain of events, I guess. However, that mental state ('state of ceto in action') still CAN be a free-will, given that it is "free from an external control or restriction of any kind". Why? Because 'X paccaya A' does not mean X 'controls' A : both X and A are conditioned dhammas. Sarah, please give us your thought on this one! KKT is asking me a tough question and I need your help. {:->)) I enjoy your clever questions, Pham, and I hope other DSG members will sooner or later become interested in providing their thoughts too. Yours truly, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Very interesting, Tep. :-)) > > I think the difficulty > is in the understanding > of the term Free-Will. > (snipped) 52233 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 3:32pm Subject: Re: just back. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - It is incredible that your memory is still great and your Internet energy has not decreased after returning from India. :-)) Before leaving for India, you wrote me an email as follows. From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 2, 2005 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 6./ Control of Asubha Bhavana? Hi Tep, please would you keep your letter in your files? Then we can have an exchange about it when I have returned. I wonder, could you think of another term instead of formal meditation, meanwhile? Different suttas emphasize different things, depending on the context. S.N. I, Ch 3, A Sword (B.B. translation, p. 100): At Saavatthi. Standing to one side, that devataa recited this verse in the presence of the Exalted One: "As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire, Abhikkhu should wander mindfully To abandon lust." [The Blessed One:] "As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire, Abhikkhu should wander mindfully Yo abandon identity view [N: sakkayadi.t.thi] " ----- Here is emphasized what comes first. Nina. ================== [And my reply was as follows:] Hi, Nina - >Nina: please would you keep your letter in your files? Then we can > have an exchange about it when I have returned. >I wonder, could you think of another term instead of formal meditation, >meanwhile? Sure, I'd be happy to do that. The mentioning of formal meditation in my earlier post, however, does not relate to Vangisa Sutta. The emphasis on abandoning of sakkaaya-ditthi by the Buddha in S.N. I, Ch 3, A Sword (B.B. translation, p. 100) is , perhaps, because it is generally more important than abandoning lust (lust is on and off, identity views are there all the time). However, lust was the most urgent thing in the young Vangisa's mind at that moment so he asked the Venerable Ananda for help. Regards, Tep ======= [End of the previous posts] If you still are interested in the discussion, and when it is convenient for you, please let me know. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Dear friends, > I am just back with lots of tasks in the house. 52234 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. seisen_au Dear Nina, You wrote: >BTW perfections are not perfections without satipatthana. When you have some time could you perhaps elaborate on this comment and why satipatthana makes metta for example, a perfection. I know your busy, don't rush to reply. Thanks Steve 52235 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 7:13pm Subject: "Beware of content": the story makes us suffer? antony272b2 Dear Sarah and Group, I am currently in psychotherapy and I'd like some advice (from the perspective of Satipatthana) on how to get the most benefit from it. Vipassana teacher Michelle McDonald-Smith wrote: "The third level is when we get more identified with the emotion, which is often the case. You know those signs that say, "Beware of the dog". I always think, "beware of content". With emotions, it's really like you need the sign, "beware of content", because it's the story and believing the thoughts about it that makes us suffer so much." http://www.buddhanet.net/emotions.htm A meditation master once said: "Donate the $50 to the Buddhist center and tell your problems to a tree." What do you think? Thanks / Antony. 52236 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: "Beware of content": the story makes us suffer? Sankhara anupassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Andrew - I think one should try to understand "content" in the framework of Satipatthana. Here content is "the story", and believing "the thoughts about it" leads to suffering. So it seems that the story and thoughts about it are citta-sankhara(mental formations) that are dukkha. It then follows that aniccanupassana of the mental formations should be beneficial. The meditation master you quoted seemed to have a low opinion about (most) Buddhist centers. What do you think? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Group, > > I am currently in psychotherapy and I'd like some advice (from the > perspective of Satipatthana) on how to get the most benefit from it. > (snipped) 52237 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just back. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Welcome back. It's good to see your citta again, always beautiful (sobhana) it inspires many diverse thoughts. I've been thinking I should be more aware of my body as a collection of parts: arms, legs, head, torso, feet, (some) hair, etc. Body is part of self view but is easily ignored. Look! No self here. Larry 52238 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 8:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken H (Steve & Matheesha), > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > > > > .... > S: I got a little lost with your 'running man' I'm afraid. If you come > across the sutta you have in mind, I'd be interested to see it. > > Hi Sarah, Thanks for your interest, but I think the less said about my "running man" theory the better. The sutta I was misquoting (he wasn't even running) was Majjhima Nikaya 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta: "Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Ken H 52239 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. sarahprocter... Hi Steve, Phil & Nina, We had many discussions on the parami last year in India and I made a few notes which may be of help in the meantime. --- seisen_au wrote: Nina:> >BTW perfections are not perfections without satipatthana. > Steve:> When you have some time could you perhaps elaborate on this comment > and why satipatthana makes metta for example, a perfection. .... K.Sujin had been stressing how we don’t have to use the word 'parami'. Instead, she’d say, ‘how about metta now’ or 'understanding of realities now', for example. She emphasized that wholesome states are only parami if there is right understanding accompanying them. When there is no understanding, the goodness cannot be parami. People cling to the word ‘parami’ and as soon as they hear it, want to develop these wholesome states in order to attain nibbana, but that isn’t the purpose of the Teachings. The purpose is to show that wholesome states can arise when panna grows and there is the understanding that it is not for the sake of a self attaining nibbana. We can understand that kusala and akusala are quite different and without the development of the former, there cannot be a gradual lessening of attachment. But, the purpose of the teachings is for becoming detached from an idea of self and even detached from kusala states, rather than wanting to reach nibbana or wanting to perform kusala deeds to attain the parami. Instead, when there is understanding anytime, the good states and deeds can be parami. She also stressed that the parami are wholesome realities which will lead to perfect detachment from all conditioned realities and that there are 3 kinds of parami: a) sammasambuddha parami b) paccekabuddha parami c) savaka parami – The savaka (or follower of the Buddha)’s parami develop so that the 4NT can be realised too. Of course, these parami are of a very different degree to the Buddha's. If the path isn't leading to a growing detachment from whatever dhammas are conditioned now and instead is leading to an increased attachment to being such or such a kind of 'good' person, it will never lead to insight or the development of the parami as I see it. Metta, Sarah ========= 52240 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 10:41pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 305 Aversion-dosa (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] We tend to have aversion when we have pain or when we are sick. When an unpleasant object impinges on the bodysense, bodyconsciousness accompanied by painful feeling experiences that object. Body-consciousness is vipåkacitta, it is in this case the result of akusala kamma. Shortly afterwards in that process of cittas dosa-múla-cittas are likely to arise which experience that object with aversion. It seems almost inevitable that aversion arises after the body-consciousness which experiences an unpleasant object. In order to have right understanding of the different phenomena which occur, it is necessary to develop mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. There are many different types of nåma and rúpa when we have pain and when we have aversion about pain, and they can be objects of awareness one at a time. Right understanding of nåma and rúpa will help us to bear great pains and to be patient in case of sickness. If we begin to develop right understanding of realities at this moment we accumulate conditions for its arising when we are sick or when we are about to die. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52241 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 10:42pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 306 Aversion-dosa (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa) contd] Questions i Is the suppression of unpleasant feeling always done with kusala citta? ii What are the proximate causes for dosa? iii When there are unpleasant “worldly conditions” we are likely to have dosa. How can right understanding of kamma and vipåka help us to have kusala citta instead of dosa? iv Why is there no dosa in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the arúpa-brahma planes? v Why can dosa not be eradicated without developing right understanding of nåma and rúpa? Why can it not be eradicated by just developing loving kindness? vi When we suffer from sickness and when we are about to die what is the most beneficial thing that can be done in order not to be overcome by dosa? What should be done if dosa arises in such circumstances? ***** [Aversion (dosa) finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 52242 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Beware of content": the story makes us suffer? sarahprocter... Dear Antony, It’s always good to hear from you and I had kept a couple of your other messages aside to respond to as well below. In answer to the question in the subject heading, I'd say, develop awareness of realities....and there are bound to be stories and stories. --- Antony Woods wrote: > I am currently in psychotherapy and I'd like some advice (from the > perspective of Satipatthana) on how to get the most benefit from it. .... S: I think that whatever circumstances we find ourselves in, the only response is the development of understanding of the present realities with patience. Remember, as we discussed before, that satipatthana is not limited to any special time or place. We never know where we may find ourselves or what realities may arise and be apparent. When we’re lost in the story of the siren or the psychotherapy or India, there’s no awareness of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound or thinking as conditioned at this moment. .... >With emotions, it's > really like you need the sign, "beware of content", because it's the > story and believing the thoughts about it that makes us suffer so > much." > http://www.buddhanet.net/emotions.htm ... S: :-) I’m not sure of the context, but it’s true that the suffering or difficulties are caused by the attachment to what is experienced and the long stories about these experiences. There is no detachment from what is seen or heard, for example, which is so anicca, dukkha and anatta. And then there is all the clinging to ‘my’ suffering and so on. ... > A meditation master once said: > "Donate the $50 to the Buddhist center and tell your problems to a > tree." ... S: :-) I think we all need to take different ‘medicines’ for different conditions at different times. Obviously the psychotherapy has been recommended for you and so I suggest you continue it, discussing difficulties with a ‘person’ rather than a tree and developing satipatthana at the same time. Please let us know how it goes and ask any further questions. If there is any 'trying' not to have stories, that will just make life more difficult and indicate more clinging. ***** Now your other posts: #51652 you said you weren’t confident of reaching Nibbana rather than an animal realm. You wondered if this is vicikiccha or self-view? There are two points/qus here really. One is the nibbana/animal realm issue. When we’re lost in speculations about the future and anxieties about rebirth etc, it shows there’s no awareness of present dhammas. No one can know what the future will bring, but if there isn’t a growth in awareness and understanding of ‘existence’ now, there will never be the understanding which leads to nibbana. The second refers to the doubt/self-view qu. Only this same understanding can know whether it is doubt or self-view arising now. There may be a strong, strong clinging to self with or without wrong view of self. When there’s doubt or uncertainty about dhammas, there’s no clinging at such times. Of course they can follow each other. (see more in U.P. under doubt and wrong-view, Also ‘Cetasikas’ under ‘Vicikiccha’). In #52141, I liked the brief one line summaries. ‘Don’t imagine there is something else’. It’s good. There really only ever is just the present nama or rupa appearing that can ever be known. No solutions can be found in any other way, no matter how easy or difficult our lives seem to be. You and Howard referred to the ‘All’. Yes, outside the ‘All’ now, anything else is purely imaginary. Without the impact of visible object on eye sense, there would be no seeing. Present dhammas depend on the coming together of the various ayatanas or meeting points of cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Everything is just nama or rupa now. In #51145, you asked about ‘psycho-physical phenomena’ and ‘phenomenality’. I think phenomena and phenomenality mean different things to different people. If we refer to dhammas or realities/phenomena that can experience now (namas) or which cannot experience now (rupas) it may help. Namas and rupas are not processes or abstract concepts, but refer to what can be tested and known. For example, kaya (body) which you mention as in the Satipatthana Sutta refers to heat or cold or hardness or softness or motion which can be known when we touch an arm now as we speak. Rupa is an element, not a whole body. Please ask anything else and keep sharing your reflections. I may have missed some of your points, in which case, pls let me know. Metta, Sarah p.s I wrote to you here before we left for India. As it was a delayed response to you, you may not have seen it. This is the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50865 ====== 52243 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) sarahprocter... Hi Hal, I have several posts I wished to reply to from before our trip to India such as this one of yours: --- Hal wrote: > Hi Sarah, & all, > > That it is just false does make sense as you say, but what I'm > struggling to understand is how can conceit still arise without > sakkyadhitti? (question iii, in your most recent post). ... S: You may no longer be struggling. Let me try to give a couple of quick examples in case you are:). Let's say some children are playing football or any game together. There's likely to be plenty of conceit, plenty of comparing with each other and puffing up in importance. Not necessarily any wrong view of self arising however. Now when we read the posts, we may think that someone addressed a point, asked a question, trimmed a post(!) better or worse or in a similar way to how we would have....lots of conceit again. It's so common and deep-rooted. That's why it's only eradicated at the stage of an arahant. But at these times, there's not necessarily any idea of a self existing. It depends and it's true that they can condition each other. Only right understanding can know what arises at anytime. I won't requote it (setting a good example, conceit creeping in??), but the quote you gave on wrong view and vitikamma, pariyutthana and anusaya (the 3 'layers') is very good. There may not be conditions for much wrong view to be arising (for example, in a child or animal)or there may seem to be some great improvement in wholesome states (Phil sometimes refers to this), but what about the anusaya (latent tendencies) which are still there. That's why any seeming growth of wholesomeness without wisdom doesn't take us any closer to the goal. I also agree with your comments (to Howard, #51042) about the subtle and dangerous forms of wrong view that we can't even articulate. And in answer to your qu there, yes, the elimination of sakayaditthi results in the elimination of all ditthi. All ditthi is eradicated at the stage of sotapanna completely. There may be an idea or expression of 'I am this..', 'I am Hal','I am Sarah', but no wrong view associated with it. So it has nothing to do with the expression. Was there anything else? Pls ignore if Howard or anyone else answered these qus already. From necessity, I had to run through messages very quickly whilst travelling. Metta, Sarah ======= > > Concerning wrong view, here are some remarks of Ledi Sayadaw taken > from the _Requistites_, BPS edition (pp.54-56): (please excuse my > typing) > > "Wrong View (dhitti) is established in beings in three planes or > layers, viz, > > _Vitikamma_ Transgression (in deeds or speech) > _Pariyutthana_, obsession (of mind by evil thoughts, mental > involvement with the Stains or defilements, kilesa), > _anusaya_, Proclivityor latent disposition to the Stains. > > These layers are the realm of Personality Belief (sakkayaditthi). > They may be called coarse, middling and fine aspects of Wrong view. > > I shall now discuss how the offsprings of _dhitti_(Wrong View)_, the > ten Evil Deeds (duccarita: see Note 47), enter in to the layers of > _dhitti_. > > The coarse layer of Wrong View, 'Transgression' (vitikkama) > comprises unwholesome kammic actions (akusala kamma), committed > through overt deeds and speech. The middling layer of 'Obsession' > (pariyutthana) layer comprises the evil that occurs in thoughts. The > finest layer, 'Proclivity' (anusaya) is the evil that lies latent in > the personalities of beings throughout the beginningless round of > rebirths (anamatagga-samsara), though it may not yet result in > manifestations of act, speech or thoughts. > > It may be said that there are three kinds of fire in a match box. The > first is the fire that lies latent in the whole match-box. The second > is the fire that ignites the match stick when it is struck. The third > is the fire that is transferred to another object when it is brought > in contact with the flame of the match stick. Such a fire is that > which burns rubbish heaps, clothes, houses monasteries and villages. > > This fire, the fire that is transferred to another object, resembles > the coarse _vitikkama ditthi_, manifested in transgressions by acts > and speech. The fire that burns the match stick resembles the > middling _pariyutthana ditthi_ which is manifested in the mind every > time it comes in contact with objects of thought. The fire that is > latent in the box of matches resembles the _anusaya ditthi_ the > succession of lives in _anamatagga samsara_, the unfathomable aeons > of existence. > > This fire that lies latent in the box of matches does not burst into > flame so long as the match head is not rubbed with the nitrous > surface of the match-box. It does not cause any harm even if it be > kept in contact with highly inflammable articles such as gunpowder. > In the same way, the _anusaya ditthi_ lies latent in the personality > and does not manifest itself so long as it does not come into contact > with evil objects of thought or other causes of evil. When, however, > evil objects of thought or other causes impinge on the six sense- > doors, the _anusaya ditthi_ is disturbed and begins to make itself > manifest in the mind-door, or in the plane of the _pariyutthana_ > through the function of volition. If at that time the manifestations > can be suppressed by good doctrines, they disappear from the > _pariyutthana_ plane and return to the _anusaya_ plane and reside > there as latent natural tendencies. If they cannot be suppressed, > they continue to manifest themselves developing volitions. If they > are further disturbed (in the _pariyutthana_ plane), they manifest > themselves in the _vitikkama_ plane in the form of evil speech and > evil acts. > > In the world, if a person can control himself in the _vitikkama_ and > _pariyutthana_ planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and thoughts > are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, or > moral man. But such a person is not aware of the _anusaya_ plane. If > the _anusaya_ plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is > exercised over the _vitikkama_ and _pariyutthana_ planes, such > control can only be of a temporary nature. If the person is strong in > the observance of good principles, the control can last for the whole > of his life. But there can be no certainty about the next life, when > upheavals in these two planes may occur." > > Hal > ____________________________________________________ > "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Hal & all, > > > > --- Hal wrote: > > > > > "This doesn't mean that the Sotappana in overcoming sakyadhitti > has > > > eradicated all dhitti." In saying this I wanted to know if there > are > > > subtler forms that still persist that arise with subtler forms of > > > conceit, now that sakyadhitti no longer conditioning them. > > > > > > Is this a false dichotomy or is it just false? > > .... > > S: Just false:). All wrong views depend on sakayaditthi and when > they are > > eradicated so are all other ditthi. Completely eradicated by > sotapatti > > magga citta. > > > > You may like to look at past posts under 'conceit vs wrong view' in > > 'Useful Posts' (under 'conceit'). > > > > This topic came up in our discussion in Bangkok today with a lively > group > > of friends including Sukin and Azita - easy to see others' wrong > views' - > > not so easy to be aware of 'our' wrong views when they arise and > when it's > > sakkaya ditthi,to know which kind of sakkaya ditthi it is with > awareness, > > not just thinking about it afterwards. Azita asked about looking at > > oneself in the mirror - usually just with lobha. Any wrong view > arising? > > > > Only sati and panna can answer if they arise:-). > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ======== > 52244 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccariya? sarahprocter... Hi Jean (& Nina) --- Jean wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I'm from Taiwan/native speaker of Chinese. ... S: Thx - it explains how you read Chinese texts. Thank you also for introducing your colleagues. You all have very interesting topics for your research. (Nina, there are three new members inc. Jean from CHIBS, a university in Taiwan. They are all PhD students. Jean is the one who originally asked about this ancien Sinhalese commentary, but we got it sorted out.) > > > so called 'because it was composed on a raft somewhere in > Ceylon'." > > > Could you explain "because it was COMPOSED ON a RAFT " more? > > > Is "raft" something like boat? Why/How the "Mahaa-paccarii" > composed > > > on a raft? Thank you very much! > > .... > > S: Composed on a raft means that it was written/compiled by the > author > > whilst sitting on a raft. <...> > J:It sounds very interesting! I couldn't image that an Atthakathaa, > a great work, was written/compiled by the author whilst sitting on a > raft! I always think it must be compiled by some persons & costed a > long period...By the way, I checked the book ""ì•û?Š"`•§"T‚ÌŒ¤ > ‹† "(The research of the Texts of the South traditional Buddhism.?¨ > It's my translation.)by Makoto Nagai in Japanes(1936), it gave the > same explaination as you mentioned above. ... S: All our sources point to the same meaning which is good. perhaps the raft was the coolest and most relaxing place to write. ..... > J:In fact,the paragraphs I transl. has transl.into English already > by Dhamminda Bhikkhu in his"A Life Free of Money". They contained 10 > types and 2 classes of kappiya-kaarakas, the example for explaining > the Rupiya samvohara sikkhapada called'the four unallowable bowls' > etc.. Reading these, we can know more details on practising the > money rules, i.e. nissaggiya paacittiya 18,19,20 & 10 of auxiliary, > and prpractise them easier on this modern days both to Bhikkhus and > kappiya-kaarakas. > Some people maybe think some Bhikkhu Rules has outmoded, because > they cause some inconveniences on daily life now. The question here > is: Is 'making conveniences for monks/nuns' the purpose of that the > Buddha made Rules for Bhikkhus? ... S: Right from the beginning there was controversy and we know that there were arguments for 'convenience' from the very start, but the (Theravada) Elders insisted on keeping the entire Vinaya as it was laid down by the Buddha. .... >These are my superficial view until > now. And I'm afraid of that I cannot temporarily check the massage > frequently. Because I have to spend most of the time to flesh my > thesis out and finish it in time as soon as I can from now on. > Thank you again for your help. I'll be back soon! ... S: Keep updating us and let us know if you have any further Qus or Answers. We all understand about yr time constraints. Metta, Sarah ======= 52245 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and its cessation sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > Hi everyone, > > "And what are the roots of unskillful things? Greed... aversion... > delusion... These are termed the roots of unskillful things. > > "And what are the roots of skillful things? Lack of greed... lack of > aversion... lack of delusion... These are termed the roots of > skillful things." > > — MN 9 > > The end result of the noble eightfold path is alobha, adosa and > amoha ie the roots of skilful kamma. But yet an arahath does not > produce kamma, even skilful ones, as far as i understand. > > How can we reconcile these two? .... S: I'm not sure if anyone answered this or if I completely understand the qu, but a couple of comments just to keep it 'alive'. The qualities of alobha, adosa and amoha have to be developed. So they are the roots of skilful kamma as you say, but are own fully developed by the arahant when all kilesa (defilements) are finally eradicated as you know. Just at that time of final eradication, the conditions for new kamma to be produced are eliminated too. The deeds of the arahant (through body speech and mind) are still rooted in alobha, adosa and amoha, however. Let me know if there is more to the qu. Oh, just seen your qu to Larry on 'why don't they create kusala kamma?'. Because, ignorance and attachment are the conditions for the perpetuation of samsara and of 'becoming'. When these are eradicated, so are the causes of suffering and further becoming and the actions which will bring such results. .... > > Another question, what is the link between sankhara and kamma? > Apunnabihsankhara etc - does one lead to the other? yesterday a monk > told me that sankhara and kamma are interchangeable. I'm not sure if > this is correct. Any input is appreciated. ... S: I think this was answered. See 'sankhara' in U.P too. In terms of sankhara as used in D.O. sankhara and kamma are interchangeable. Avijja conditions sankhara/kamma. When avijja is eradicated, no new kamma (pu~n~naabhisankhaara- meritorious kamma and apu~n~naabhisankhaara- non-meritorious kamma). ***** S: And now back to the hen (#51872). I was going to find another sutta on this for James in SN, but he's not around now. You ask why 'formal meditation is the only thing' I'm not doing 'in the name of panna. How about stopping doing all forms of intentioned actions so that the conditions for pure insight would be optimum?' S: :-). I thought you and Ken H were thrashing this one out.. Simply, when we do anything 'in the name of panna' it's likely to be misguided because we have an idea of a 'situation' rather than any understanding of present dhammas at such a time. Any dhamma can be known now, whether it is 'intention', 'wrong view', 'conceit' 'thinking', 'frustration', or objects appearing through the senses. No need to start or stop any actions as you refer to, otherwise it's likely to be with an idea of self and special 'chick' wishing again:). Not sure any of my responses will be satisfactory at all, but thanks again for all the good threads and discussions you generate with your well-considered comments. Metta, Sarah ===== 52246 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) philofillet Hi Sarah (and Hal and all > There may not be conditions for much wrong view to be arising (for > example, in a child or animal)or there may seem to be some great > improvement in wholesome states (Phil sometimes refers to this), but what > about the anusaya (latent tendencies) which are still there. That's why > any seeming growth of wholesomeness without wisdom doesn't take us any > closer to the goal. Thanks for the feedback to Steve and me re Perfections, Sarah in the other thread. I think I've said enough about that for awhile and need to reflect a bit more (also, Lodewijk reading the Perfections has come around for its next turn in my ipod) but just in passing about the above. I don't believe that there is an improvement in wholesome states, but I think there can be a slowing down of the decline away from wholesome states. There are many suttas that I've been reading in which the Buddha helps us to see that if we "welcome" or "hold on to" or "delight in" or "obsess on" pleasant objects, there will be a "decline from wholesome states." He doesn't say that about "inclinging toward wholesome states." I think these suttas can be strong condition for helping a little to avoid acts that would hasten the decline. There is even a sutta in which he teaches us to consider, a little bit snootily it sometimes seems to me, "such a way is not for me" or something like that - very conventional language. As for the eradication of underlying tendencies, and as for having sati or metta or other sobbhana states so easily, no way except the very patient development of understanding. But as for avoiding transgressions that could lead, for example, to rebirth in hell realms or whatever, yes, they can be avoided on occasion, with the Buddha's teaching acting as strong condition, I think. Sometimes. Other times they won't be avoided, of course. But I think A. Sujin is mistaken in one of the talks when Nina asks her about someone on the list (me, I think) who said he was worried about moral transgressions and she says "it has already arisen." No, it hasn't already arisen. It can be avoided on occasion. So, en bref, I am talking about avoiding akusala kamma patha, not cultivating kusala kamma patha. I still think there is a reason that the Buddha always mentions eradicating or avoiding evil before he mentions cultivating the wholesome. But of course that is just more clinging on my part. OK. I will take a break from talking about this topic for a couple of days (ha!) as I listen and reflect some more. Phil 52247 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: Two Items sukinderpal Dear Howard, It looks like we will be circling around same old points, but allow me to respond this once and then you or I can decide if we should continue? ;-) From previous discussion: --------------------------------------- > Howard: > It seemed to me that what I was saying was straightforward. The > practice of attending cultivates attention. > ----------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: What I was questioning was about the kind of `attention'. Now I have another matter to point out, namely the accuracy of our assessment concerning the relationship between what we `think' we do i.e. practice, and what we `think' is the outcome of that. I think all this involves a lot of thinking with little consideration about the complexity of conditions. There is danger that sanna and citta vipallasa is involved, and worse still, when this concerns any `measuring' of progress, then the vancaka (cheating) dhammas will likely come into play. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++ From previous discussion: ------------------- > Sukin: > > Of course you are saying that this is a natural consequence of prior > > training, which constitute paying attention to feelings, sensations and so > > on. But does this matter? > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes. > ------------------------------------------- > Intention accompanies each citta and takes > > > on the object the citta takes, in this case 'concepts' different from what > > constitutes those of your wife's cittas or your own, prior to the training. > > And with the conventional understanding of what 'mindfulness' is, you > > may argue that your present experiences is a result of development of > > satipatthana, but is it? > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I believe so. > ------------------------------------------ > > We know that satipatthana takes paramattha dhammas as object and > > not concepts. So would you say that your being aware of the SUV is a > > consequence of the development of satipatthana, or something else? > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is nothing but what there actually is. Our apparent observing of > conventional objects such as SUV's is the result of mental processing that > enables us to build relational structure into our cognition. Without that we > could not function in this world. But at any time, all that actually arise are > paramattha dhammas, and among these can be heightened attention to whatever > arises, regardless of how the mind parses it. ------------------------------------------ Sukin in this post: Are you saying that based on your theory about there being certain relations between paramattha dhammas and that these underlie conventional objects, the correct practice of satipatthana should lead to more awareness of those conventional objects? I don't think it works that way. I have another theory. Satipatthana is a very high level of panna and this is accompanied by a good level of detachment. Being more aware of what we are doing, as in washing the dishes or registering more of what is going on, seem to be with attachment to "things" and/or the idea of `doing' it. After any sense impression, there is thinking. And it is a matter of many, many mind door processes that we come to recognize, and much more so when this then conditions bodily action. Of course satipatthana can arise in between all these processes and take any nama or rupa as object. And this can even be in the middle of what we call being `self-absorbed'. According to your theory it seems that satipatthana should condition more awareness of `objects' out there. But those objects are a product of thinking rooted in anything but panna. Some people have the habit of noting all the details in their surroundings, even without having heard the Teachings. Others may have developed the habit of thinking obsessively about all sorts of things. In either case the correct development of panna does not mean that these habit change in any significant way. The one who is generally observant does not become `more' observant (which is in fact `thinking' anyway), the one who thinks a lot does not now start to be more aware of his surroundings. What does happen is that one understands one's accumulations more and is less concerned about trying to be `different'. One is detached from whatever has already been conditioned to arise, in the beginning this will be mostly in the form of `thinking' about what has just arisen. If anything, I think this is a mark of the correct development of sati and panna. How can one change something that has already arisen and why should one presume to know what will arise in the future. What is the use of studying the Buddha's Teachings if there is no development of understanding? What is sati if there is no panna which "understands" at least some aspect of the experience? Sati arises with all levels of kusala and if the moment is not Dana, Sila or Samatha Bhavana, then it had better be accompanying a moment of Right understanding. Is what you describe the latter? It does not sound like such to me. Yet there can be panna, if not at the level of direct understanding of a paramattha dhamma, a level which is either Suttamaya or Cintamaya. I think we should not be too eager to "directly experience" i.e. bhavanamaya panna, but accept that ours will mostly be at the two lower level. It is better to know how much we really understand and accept it. It is a great mistake in my opinion, to identify with a conventional practice and call that the development of satipatthana when in fact it is something else altogether. We are guided by what we know or think we know, and if the understanding is wrong, then the wrong path will be followed. Of course it all starts with pariyatti, i.e. the correct intellectual understanding. So indeed this is not really about what constitutes correct practice. Correct intellectual understanding will condition a correct attitude towards what is patipatti. Therefore for someone who misunderstands practice it means that he has understood the theory wrongly. All three levels of understanding namely, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha must agree completely. There must be no contradictions. Some seem not to want to believe the Buddha, like Thanissaro who can't get away from self-view and therefore has to change the meaning of Anatta. This and arguments such as those about free will are nothing but an attempt at justifying what one wants to "do", e.g. formal practice. There is so much fear of not being able to control the outcome of events and there is so much greed for results. With the amount of ignorance and attachment all talk about liberation is just that, "talk"! If we really saw the danger of akusala, i.e. lobha, dosa, mana, macchariya, issa and so on, and if on coming upon the Buddha's Teachings we realize the danger of avijja and miccha ditthi, then I am quite sure that progressively both sati and panna at whatever corresponding level it be, will be directed increasingly towards this *present* dhamma. And this *would* involve "cetana" performing its function. But the leader must be "panna", because without it, ignorance will control matters, including any "ideas" about intentions to practice and be liberated. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From previous discussion: ------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > b) Had I not, quite consciously, determinedly, and intentionally > > moved my wife and myself out of harm's way, but instead "waited for > > conditions" to somehow arise, I might not be here to write this. > > > > Sukin: > > Who would do this? > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > No sane person! And that applies to all facets of life, including > Dhamma practice. > ----------------------------------------- > > conditionality either. The apparent control in conventional situations > > should be understood in light of the conditioned nature and > > hence 'uncontrollability' of dhammas. > > > > It is just in 'thinking' that there seem to be control. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is volition and volitional action. This is kamma. It, like all > dhammas, is conditioned. But it is not an unwanted step child. It does not have > second-class status among the cetasikas. > ------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Understanding that there are only conditions behind every thought about `doing' or `not doing', can condition seeing the importance of knowing this very present dhamma. And this at the same time would be both, cetana towards knowing what has arisen and also *not* a `waiting for conditions' attitude. Giving panna prime importance is not making cetana a second-class citizen. And it may be an example of chanda in action as against lobha, to know that there is generally so much ignorance and seeing hence, the importance of developing panna. We are so ignorant of our cittas that we don't know what the cetana is rooted in. In `thinking' about taking action to `do' good or `do' satipatthana, most of us are taken in by the "story" where it *seems* to us that it is kusala intention, but may in fact not be so. Any story centered on self projected into the future does not sound like kusala to me. If anything is to be known, then it is the present dhamma and not some other. If we do not recognize lobha at the root of our thinking, then we will continuously be lead by it. And being students of Dhamma, this lobha will often be hidden from sight by Dhamma ideals. And who can argue with idealism. ;-) This is a long post and has in fact taken me two days to finish. Please don't feel obliged to respond. Metta, Sukin. 52248 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 1:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? sukinderpal Dear Joop, all, > Sukin: "I think the Dhamma is very deep and very hard to understand > even intellectually." > Joop: Sometimes I think the Dhamma is difficult to understand; and > sometimes I think: the Dhamma is easy, is transparent: I in fact > already knew it, the Buddha had only to remind me to it. > This week I was reading the Cula-rahulovada-Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya > 147) a discourse of the Buddha during which Rahula got awakened. We > can make it to diffucult because we like to worry. Of course I > exaggerate but still:we had to go the middle way between heavy and > light. Sukinder: I think you may mean that Dhamma is "simple but hard to see", as one of our friends here, Ivan, often says. Yes, unnecessary complications do happen and this takes the attention away from what is right in front of us to be known and understood. However, as we must accept that there is so much ignorance, wrong view and other akusala accumulated, and these do arise 99.99% of the time, then indeed the Dhamma is extremely difficult for us to finally understand well enough. Also the Middle Way i.e. a moment of satipatthana, is tread when it is tread, and merely being able to understand this intellectually does not make it arise. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: "For example, would science ever arrive at the conclusion that > there are 28 rupas? No …" > Joop: Of course not; my opinion is that "rupa" does not mean "matter" > but "by a human being experienced material quality" And further: the > number 28 is not holy to me ("numbers" themselves are concepts), if > it's better to combine two or to add one, it must be possible to do > so (example: 'heart base'). Sukinder: I am really glad to hear this as I once got the impression that you were confused about this topic. However I would not limit Rupa to being the `object' of human experience. There are so called subtle rupas which I think can be experienced only by the Buddha and/or Arahats through the mind door. In this realm we experience only 7 rupas through the sense doors and this too of a particular degree of gross/refined. For example, devas experience the same 7 rupas, but these are too refined for us human beings to experience. Others like water element, male and female rupas and life-faculty, we can never directly experience, yet they manifest in conventional reality and we can understand it intellectually. The heart base makes sense to me, though I may never experience it directly. So the number 28, though also to me it is not holy, I have no reason not to believe it to be true. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Joop: > More important to me is: there is not a cognitive dissonance between > the Dhamma and scientific discoveries, Sukinder: Ideally it shouldn't I guess. But I think we should be very careful about explanations from either camp seeking to explain any similarity. I don't think it should be any one's business to do so, but people do and I think this is due to wrong understanding of Dhamma. The right understanding of Dhamma would at the same time know its purpose, and that is to develop understanding of realities, which is different from a theory about the conventional world. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Joop: > it's not difficult for a > scientist (or a scientific educated modern person) to be or to get a > Buddhist, that's was my statement. And that's one of the reasons I'm > optimistic; another is that the prophecy of the Buddha about the > decline of the Buddhasasana is not correct understood. Sukinder: OK, now I see. But I must say that I disagree with this. We all know of scientists who have developed existential angst or inclined spiritually to go in totally different directions, even Hare Rama Hare Krishna groups ;- ). I don't think Buddhism is the necessary logical choice of these people. Being objective and having an appeal for impersonal processes does not necessarily reflect panna. The interest even for Buddhism can be rooted in love for philosophical speculation. I think it might be good to consider the unique position of panna in human thought. Panna which understands anatta and conditionality goes hand in hand with the development of the paramis. In other words Panna cannot be developed if kusala such as Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, Patience, Truthfulness, Loving kindness and other paramis are also developed. So I don't think it is right to make the connection you make. It is not so simple and straight forward as you think, I think. I know you have stated that you do not mind long posts. But I do tend to go on and on, and for this I must ask you not to mind it. Metta, Sukin. 52249 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 1:05am Subject: The ALL ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The empirical ALL is what can be sensed or thought of! At Savatthi. Bhikkhus, I will teach you the ALL. Listen to that... And what, bhikkhus, is the ALL? The eye and the forms; The ear and the sounds; The nose and the smells; The tongue and the tastes; The body and the touches; The mind and the mental states. This is called the all... If anyone, bhikkhus, should postulate this: 'Having denied this all, I will define & point another all ... !!!', that would be empty babble on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply & he would be quite perplexed. Why? Because, bhikkhus, that would be out his mental range! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 15 The Salayatana section 35. Thread on the ALL: Sabba Sutta (23) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 52250 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:18am Subject: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... upasaka_howard In a message dated 11/9/05 12:00:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... displays a prescription dispensed by the Buddha (emphasis below is mine): > Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; > finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for > sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather > uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so SHOULD the bhikkhu in > whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be > without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the > removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then > the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By > their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes > unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). > ===================== He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful thoughts, for then those thoughts will disappear, and then the mind will settle down. It is not merely said descriptively that WHEN there is reflection, useful conditions arise, or that there IS reflecting and then useful conditions arise. It is said that a man SHOULD engage in such reflection in order for the useful conditions to arise. This is instruction. It is prescription. It is advice to engage in useful intentional action (kusala kamma). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52251 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:25am Subject: Re: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequis... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken and all - By mistake, I omitted a salutation in my post. The post, of course, was directed to Ken and everyone else. My apologies for the oversight. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52252 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 5:27am Subject: Rupa without (Was: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? jwromeijn Dear Sukin Thanks for your reaction. If you accept, I want to discuss one aspect of it; that's why I give this thread an other name. About rupa and speculation. You talked about philosophical speculation, and if understand you well you meant that we have a tendency to do that but that we should not do that. Then I say: OK, but I will do without any speculation, in fact "philosophical" in "philosophical speculation" is not something restricting. I prefer a Buddhisme in the future without any speculation, any magic: only what reaches me through my six senses, exists to my without speculation. You say: some rupas "can be experienced only by the Buddha and/or Arahats" That may be so, but the Buddha and arahats were human beings too? You talk about "devas": is the idea that "devas" exist not speculation? To me it is; to be honest: I think devas don't exist. I try to read about it, but could not find which of the 28 rupas are so subtle that they can not be perceived by worldling-humanbeings. Or are there rupas that are perceived at different ways by worldlings and by arahats? If not: is it correct to speak I have done some study about the question which of the (28) rupa can be perceived by animals. Less than 28, I think, by which exactly? And how can we know that without speculation: by biological research? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Joop, all, > > Sukinder: > ...However I would not limit Rupa to being > the `object' of human experience. There are so called subtle rupas > which I think can be experienced only by the Buddha and/or Arahats > through the mind door. In this realm we experience only 7 rupas > through the sense doors and this too of a particular degree of > gross/refined. For example, devas experience the same 7 rupas, but > these are too refined for us human beings to experience. Others like > water element, male and female rupas and life-faculty, we can never > directly experience, yet they manifest in conventional reality and we can > understand it intellectually. The heart base makes sense to me, though I > may never experience it directly. So the number 28, though also to me > it is not holy, I have no reason not to believe it to be true. ... > Being objective and having an appeal for impersonal processes > does not > necessarily reflect panna. The interest even for Buddhism can be > rooted in love for philosophical speculation. > > > Metta, > > Sukin. > 52253 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two Items upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - Yours is a very long post. I'll reply to a couple points in context. In a message dated 11/9/05 4:14:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > It looks like we will be circling around same old points, but allow me to > respond this once and then you or I can decide if we should continue? ;-) > > From previous discussion: > --------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >It seemed to me that what I was saying was straightforward. The > >practice of attending cultivates attention. > >----------------------------------------- > Sukin in this post: > What I was questioning was about the kind of `attention'. Now I have > another matter to point out, namely the accuracy of our assessment > concerning the relationship between what we `think' we do i.e. practice, > and what we `think' is the outcome of that. I think all this involves a lot > of thinking with little consideration about the complexity of conditions. > There is danger that sanna and citta vipallasa is involved, and worse > still, when this concerns any `measuring' of progress, then the vancaka > (cheating) dhammas will likely come into play. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, always danger. We are imperfect. ---------------------------------------- > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +++++++++++ > From previous discussion: > ------------------- > >Sukin: > >>Of course you are saying that this is a natural consequence of prior > >>training, which constitute paying attention to feelings, sensations > and so > >>on. But does this matter? > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Yes. > >------------------------------------------- > > Intention accompanies each citta and takes > > >>on the object the citta takes, in this case 'concepts' different from > what > >>constitutes those of your wife's cittas or your own, prior to the > training. > >>And with the conventional understanding of what 'mindfulness' is, > you > >>may argue that your present experiences is a result of development > of > >>satipatthana, but is it? > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > I believe so. > >------------------------------------------ > >>We know that satipatthana takes paramattha dhammas as object > and > >>not concepts. So would you say that your being aware of the SUV is > a > >>consequence of the development of satipatthana, or something > else? > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > There is nothing but what there actually is. Our apparent > observing of > >conventional objects such as SUV's is the result of mental processing > that > >enables us to build relational structure into our cognition. Without that > we > >could not function in this world. But at any time, all that actually arise > are > >paramattha dhammas, and among these can be heightened attention > to whatever > >arises, regardless of how the mind parses it. > ------------------------------------------ > Sukin in this post: > Are you saying that based on your theory about there being certain > relations between paramattha dhammas and that these underlie > conventional objects, the correct practice of satipatthana should lead to > more awareness of those conventional objects? I don't think it works > that way. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. But I do think so. ------------------------------------------ > > I have another theory. Satipatthana is a very high level of panna and > this is accompanied by a good level of detachment. Being more aware > of what we are doing, as in washing the dishes or registering more of > what is going on, seem to be with attachment to "things" and/or the > idea of `doing' it. ------------------------------------------ Howard: It can be, and it might not be. If done well, it is not. And whether there is the "idea" of doing or not, rembering to be attentive cultivates attention. ----------------------------------------- > After any sense impression, there is thinking. And it is > a matter of many, many mind door processes that we come to > recognize, and much more so when this then conditions bodily action. > Of course satipatthana can arise in between all these processes and > take any nama or rupa as object. And this can even be in the middle of > what we call being `self-absorbed'. > > According to your theory it seems that satipatthana should condition > more awareness of `objects' out there. But those objects are a product > of thinking rooted in anything but panna. Some people have the habit of > noting all the details in their surroundings, even without having heard > the Teachings. Others may have developed the habit of thinking > obsessively about all sorts of things. In either case the correct > development of panna does not mean that these habit change in any > significant way. The one who is generally observant does not > become `more' observant (which is in fact `thinking' anyway), the one > who thinks a lot does not now start to be more aware of his > surroundings. What does happen is that one understands one's > accumulations more and is less concerned about trying to be `different'. > One is detached from whatever has already been conditioned to arise, > in the beginning this will be mostly in the form of `thinking' about what > has just arisen. If anything, I think this is a mark of the correct > development of sati and panna. How can one change something that > has already arisen and why should one presume to know what will arise > in the future. > > What is the use of studying the Buddha's Teachings if there is no > development of understanding? > ------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. ------------------------------------- What is sati if there is no panna > > which "understands" at least some aspect of the experience? Sati arises > with all levels of kusala and if the moment is not Dana, Sila or Samatha > Bhavana, then it had better be accompanying a moment of Right > understanding. Is what you describe the latter? It does not sound like > such to me. ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't follow you. What is it exactly that you think I am describing? I described being alert and aware as the result of an ongoing practice of cultivating attention (calm attention, incidentally). I also described the importance of intentional action, and not foolishly "waiting for conditions to arise". ------------------------------------- > > Yet there can be panna, if not at the level of direct understanding of a > paramattha dhamma, a level which is either Suttamaya or Cintamaya. I > think we should not be too eager to "directly experience" i.e. > bhavanamaya panna, but accept that ours will mostly be at the two > lower level. It is better to know how much we really understand and > accept it. It is a great mistake in my opinion, to identify with a > conventional practice and call that the development of satipatthana > when in fact it is something else altogether. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Nothing that happens is "conventional". The matter of conventional versus ultimate, or, better, figurative versus literal, is a matter of description and understanding, and not of what actually occurs. What is, is. What occurs, occurs. We can cultivate a mind that is increasing clear and attentive, or not. As cultivation proceeds, we come to see through the figurative and move towards the literal. Our understanding grows clearer and more precise. -------------------------------------- We are guided by what we > > know or think we know, and if the understanding is wrong, then the > wrong path will be followed. > > Of course it all starts with pariyatti, i.e. the correct intellectual > understanding. So indeed this is not really about what constitutes > correct practice. Correct intellectual understanding will condition a > correct attitude towards what is patipatti. Therefore for someone who > misunderstands practice it means that he has understood the theory > wrongly. All three levels of understanding namely, pariyatti, patipatti > and pativedha must agree completely. There must be no contradictions. > Some seem not to want to believe the Buddha, like Thanissaro who > can't get away from self-view and therefore has to change the meaning > of Anatta. This and arguments such as those about free will are nothing > but an attempt at justifying what one wants to "do", e.g. formal > practice. > > There is so much fear of not being able to control the outcome of > events and there is so much greed for results. With the amount of > ignorance and attachment all talk about liberation is just that, "talk"! If > we really saw the danger of akusala, i.e. lobha, dosa, mana, > macchariya, issa and so on, and if on coming upon the Buddha's > Teachings we realize the danger of avijja and miccha ditthi, then I am > quite sure that progressively both sati and panna at whatever > corresponding level it be, will be directed increasingly towards this > *present* dhamma. And this *would* involve "cetana" performing its > function. But the leader must be "panna", because without it, ignorance > will control matters, including any "ideas" about intentions to practice > and be liberated. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Pa~n~na isn't there from the outset. It needs to be cultivated. If one needs to be already at the goal in order to begin the race, then one will more profitably sit on the sidelines, or, better yet, stay home, for there will be no race to run. -------------------------------------- > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > From previous discussion: > ------------------------------------------- > >>Howard: > >> b) Had I not, quite consciously, determinedly, and intentionally > >>moved my wife and myself out of harm's way, but instead "waited > for > >>conditions" to somehow arise, I might not be here to write this. > >> > >>Sukin: > >>Who would do this? > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > No sane person! And that applies to all facets of life, including > >Dhamma practice. > >----------------------------------------- > > >>conditionality either. The apparent control in conventional situations > >>should be understood in light of the conditioned nature and > >>hence 'uncontrollability' of dhammas. > >> > >>It is just in 'thinking' that there seem to be control. > >------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > There is volition and volitional action. This is kamma. It, like all > >dhammas, is conditioned. But it is not an unwanted step child. It does > not have > >second-class status among the cetasikas. > >------------------------------------- > Sukin in this post: > Understanding that there are only conditions behind every thought > about `doing' or `not doing', can condition seeing the importance of > knowing this very present dhamma. And this at the same time would be > both, cetana towards knowing what has arisen and also *not* > a `waiting for conditions' attitude. Giving panna prime importance is not > making cetana a second-class citizen. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Giving pa~n~na prime importance is a matter of (correct) belief and attitude. But all the belief and attitude in the world, all the valuing of pa~n~na in the world, does not make wisdom arise. The intentional following of the Buddha's instructions, the practice of Dhamma, is what does it. --------------------------------------- And it may be an example of > > chanda in action as against lobha, to know that there is generally so > much ignorance and seeing hence, the importance of developing > panna. We are so ignorant of our cittas that we don't know what the > cetana is rooted in. In `thinking' about taking action to `do' good or `do' > satipatthana, most of us are taken in by the "story" where it *seems* to > us that it is kusala intention, but may in fact not be so. Any story > centered on self projected into the future does not sound like kusala to > me. > > If anything is to be known, then it is the present dhamma and not some > other. If we do not recognize lobha at the root of our thinking, then we > will continuously be lead by it. And being students of Dhamma, this > lobha will often be hidden from sight by Dhamma ideals. And who can > argue with idealism. ;-) > > This is a long post and has in fact taken me two days to finish. Please > don't feel obliged to respond. ------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, geez! Why didn't you write that at the *beginning* of your post?? ;-)) ----------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sukin. > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Beware of content": the story makes us suffer? nilovg Dear Anthony, I am sorry to hear you have to have therapy and I hope you feel better soon. op 09-11-2005 04:13 schreef Antony Woods op antony272b@...: I always think, "beware of content". With emotions, it's > really like you need the sign, "beware of content", because it's the > story and believing the thoughts about it that makes us suffer so > much." ------ N: How true. It is not easy to answer: how can satipatthana benefit us. I asked Lodewijk and he said: we should not expect anything that causes us to feel better. It does not work that way. You have studied already as I could see from your previous posts. Inspite of all our studies, it takes a long time to find out what satipatthana is, what the objects of satipatthana are, how it is to be developed. We need listening and considering, knowing the difference when there is a moment of sati, when there is not sati. Some people confuse sati and concentration. Above all: detachment is the goal. We learn: do not hanker after the past, do not worry about the future, it is the present moment that can be known. But this is more a result that can arise later on. But meanwhile it helps to reflect on the different phenomena of our life and see them as conditioned dhammas. Lodewijk finds that it helps to understand saññaa as being completely beyond control. We do not like certain reminiscences of the past, but they keep popping up. If we understand them as conditioned phenomena it helps to attach less importamce to them. In his words of gratefulness to the monks in Sarnath, at the occasion of our Sangha Dana, he said that he felt distressed by the hindrances. I quote: In two years we shall have another pilgrimage, I wish you could join it. We have no expectations, but one cannot help feeling better. Of course we had the most favorable conditions, being with Kh Sujin and good Dhamma friends, having discussions at all of the holy places. Lodewijk was not in the best shape as to health, but it did him a lot of good. Rob K's web Abhidhamma Vipassana has a collection of articles on satipatthana, including what I have written, and below is the link. Articles for beginners are useful for everybody, since we all are beginners. Nina. 52255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. just back. nilovg Hi Larry, op 09-11-2005 05:34 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: I've been thinking I should > be more aware of my body as a collection of parts: arms, legs, head, > torso, feet, (some) hair, etc. Body is part of self view but is easily > ignored. Look! No self here. --------- N: I find that it takes so long to understand our inherent tendency to clinging to my seeing, my thinking, my bodily features. It often passes unnoticed. It takes many discussions, much listening, extensive reflection, before it becomes a little clearer. Also now, I find it a difficult subject. We have many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas in a day. Even immediately after seeing clinging is bound to arise. The body is a collection of parts, but it is even more intricate than we would imagine: the arms consist of innumerable ruupas that arise and fall away. They are the smallest units. They arise and fall away and never return. But we cling to all ruupas from head to toe. The purpose of satipatthana is detachment, but when we select the objects, like parts of the body, we shall keep on clinging. We cling already to arms, legs, etc. Sati arises when there are the right conditions and sati cannot be directed to certain objects. Sati is beyond control. Sati can be aware of any dhamma, be it naama or ruupa. Naama knows an object, ruupa does not know anything. The Buddha spoke all the time about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc. Through the bodysense hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure appear, only these characterstics. Arms, legs, head do ndot appear through the bodysense. We can only think about them, and we often think with clinging. Nina. P.S. I am ready for Visuddhimagga, I prepared already the first para on feeling before India. 52256 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" phamdluan2000 Dear Tep, I'm very surprised (althought this is an agreeable surprise. Thank you :-)) by the compliment you gave me. I have no merit at all, Tep. I think this is because of our common earnest desire to learn. We both really want to learn about the meaning of free-will. Therefore things happened according to the ... fulfilled conditions! :-)) Besides, your clear answers to my messages stimulate me alot to give back more thoughtful answers. Thank you. Now I try to combine the two first definitions of free-will to have this third one: 3. FREE-WILL = THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE & THE CAPACITY TO CONTROL (OR RATHER TO FULFIL) THIS CHOICE. For example, I have the choice to promise you to meet you tomorrow. This is my free-will, the freedom of choice, OK? But tomorrow on the way to the meeting I might have an accident which prevents me to meet you. So my promise is not fulfilled. I cannot keep my promise! I can choose but I cannot control the outcome of my choice. Now I introduce a new definition of free-will: not only have I the freedom of choice but also have I the capacity to fulfil this choice. Therefore in the above example, IF I REALLY HAVE (SUCH KIND OF) FREE-WILL then nothing (an accident for example) might happen to prevent me to arrive at the meeting. Such kind of Free-Will sounds << superhuman >> :-)) But I think this is the kind of free-will of the Buddha: He can remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it if he wish! :-)) And we, as common worldlings, have we such kind of free-will in a much more little measure ? Best regards, KKT ==================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear KKT (Sarah, Howard, Swee, and others..) - You might not have imagined that your post (# 52229) really taught me about what peaceful dhamma discussion means. Indeed, any worthwhile discussion should (always) encourage a spirit of cooperation that is free from competition (even a tiny bit). Thank you for teaching me that. KKT : You've given a very clear definition of Free-Will: 1. FREE-WILL = THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Free-will is a mental state that is free from an external control or restriction of any kind in order to << choose >>. With this definition, it perfectly makes sense that free-will is conditioned and not << wholly conditioned >> at the same time. Tep: Thank you. ............................. KKT: First, can we have a second definition of Free-Will: 2. FREE-WILL = THE CAPACITY TO CONTROL. To figure out the meaning of this definition, I give an example from the Parinibbana Sutta in which the Buddha talked to Ananda: 'Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.' In this example, the Buddha has the Free-Will, if he so desired, to remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. Tep: So you are saying that our Blessed One had the "Capacity to Control" through his perfected psychic powers such that he could, if so desired, "remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it" ? But, can I ask you two questions? 1. Did the Buddha control the nama & rupa, or what else ? 2. How is such a control related to "will" and "free" ? ........................................ KKT : Second, I want to return to the first definition of Free-Will. In the given example, when I choose A among the 4 choices A, B, C, D, is this choice really comes << OUT OF THE BLUE >> or is it << PRE-DETERMINED >> by other conditions? I mean is this choice the result of some circumstances which lead me to choose A? In this case, is this really free-will? Tep: Excellent question ! The intention(will) of "choosing A" is also conditioned by some circumstances "upstream" along a chain of events, I guess. However, that mental state ('state of ceto in action') still CAN be a free-will, given that it is "free from an external control or restriction of any kind". Why? Because 'X paccaya A' does not mean X 'controls' A : both X and A are conditioned dhammas. Sarah, please give us your thought on this one! KKT is asking me a tough question and I need your help. {:->)) I enjoy your clever questions, Pham, and I hope other DSG members will sooner or later become interested in providing their thoughts too. Yours truly, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Very interesting, Tep. :-)) > > I think the difficulty > is in the understanding > of the term Free-Will. > (snipped) 52257 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: 'A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity ...' Ajahn Sujato jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > I'm not sure if this has been posted before here: > > 'A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity in the > Satipatthana Sutta' by Ajahn Sujato > ... Dear Christine, all Thanks for your reminder to the texts of Sujato; I remember we discussed about his Abhidhamma-critique a long time ago. First two question to you: - the term "worsted" in my english-dutch dictionary means a material for making clothes, has Sujato given the meaning "made the most worse" to it? That is very worse! - we should not hide ourselves behinf information; what is your opinion about this topic? I have not looked in the new book of Analayo Hal, Andrew and me have been reviewing this week, to check if he uses the different versions of the Satipatthana Sutta, Sujato mentions. I already knew of the existence of some of them, from the nice book of Thich Nhat Hanh about the sutta/sutra. It will take me days to read the book (258 pages!), there are other texts that I want to read to, although the first page about THE VIPASSANAVADA is very promising. Two questions at the end again: - Does somebody know, perhaps Sujato or Analayo give the answer, if the Satipatthana Sutta is about vipassana-meditation (aka insight- meditation) or about samattha-meditation (aka concentration aka absorption) ? - Is the phrase "he sits down, having folding his legs crosswise, set his body erect …" in the Sutta only for the "breating" or for all the aspects of satipatthanas? With metta Joop 52258 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 7:21am Subject: 2 types of DO dacostacharles I found this, where I got it from --- ???. I remembered that so discussion about DO in Arhants, so I am hopping it will stimulate some more discussion. If it is not possible to read let me know and I will convert it to text. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: Dacosta Charles-DCSC001 [mailto:DCSC001@...] Sent: Wednesday, 06 July, 2005 17:51 To: 'Charles DaCosta' Subject: Emailing: 2 types of DO.jpg <<2 types of DO.jpg>> Your files are attached and ready to send with this message. 52259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, op 09-11-2005 00:07 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> she likes to lead the hearer to the present moment, away from > theory. > > Yes, I appreciate this. I think she helps people to not settle in > comfortably with their favourite pieces of theory. ------- N: It is not quite that. We all are inclined to theory, to get stuck with it. Not just a few people. All these things became clearer during the discussions. -------- Ph: But for me, everything about Dhamma is only > thinking, thinking, thinking. No satipatthana yet. ------- N: It is so common for all of us, and we discussed it. I shall write about it. We need to be courageous. ------ Ph: So I should have > said that thinking about the perfections can be very helpful in > daily life - it is not the actual perfections, not the direct > knowing of the arising of kusala. Just thinking. But still helpful. ------ N: Lodewijk said that reflection on them can be a condition to apply them. We can be reminded. ------- Ph: I don't mind if thinking about being a patient or energetic or > friendly person is wrong view. ------- N: It may not actually be wrong view, but we can say: though we understand anatta in theory, the truth of anatta has not been penetrated. There is always some notion of I see, I hear, I perform kusala. But it is good to realize this. As to Kh Sujin answer about akusala: it has already arisen, actually I was referring to a person who reproaches himself about past akusala. Avoidance: no problem, one has hiri, ottappa and sees the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. If someone has right understanding of satipatthana it will help him even more. Nina. 52260 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... nilovg Hi Howard and Ken. I did not follow the thread, but here is the Co, I translated before. We should reflect on the whole sutta, this is only a part of it. op 09-11-2005 14:18 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > In a message dated 11/9/05 12:00:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowa@... displays a prescription dispensed by the Buddha (emphasis > below is mine): > >> Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; >> finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for >> sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather >> uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so SHOULD the bhikkhu in >> whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be >> without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the >> removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then >> the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By >> their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes >> unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). >> > ===================== **** Commentary: Someone who walks fast may think of what use this is and he will then walk more slowly. The Commentary uses a simile. When a thought occurs to the bhikkhu this is like walking fast. When he considers the occurring of such a thought it is like his walking more slowly. When he has investigated the occurring of such a thought he uses it as the subject of his meditation. N: He can be aware of his unwholesome thoughts and see them as only conditioned elements. Then they are his subject of meditation. When there is awareness and understanding of akusala as naama, the citta at that moment is kusala citta and it is accompanied by calm. The Co. compares the bhikkhu¹s development of vipassana and his attainment of arahatship to the sitting posture of that person. The bhikkhu who spent the whole day with the fruition-attainment (phala samaapatti), experiencing nibbaana, is compared to the person who was lying down. N: Those who have developed jhaana and vipassanaa and attained enlightenment can, after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away experience nibbaana again with fruition-consciousness(lokuttara vipaakacitta). We see that the postures of body, walking, standing, sitting and laying down, symbolize different stages of development of pañña even to the degree of arahatship. Co: It is explained that the movement of the thoughts becomes calmer for the bhikkhu who realizes what the cause and condition is and then these thoughts can be abandoned. N: They are abandoned through vipassana. The abandonment of akusala is true calm. ***** Nina. 52261 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 8:32am Subject: RE: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... dacostacharles Hi all, How is Jhana a prerequisite for the ... in the following suttra? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Wednesday, 09 November, 2005 14:18 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... In a message dated 11/9/05 12:00:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... displays a prescription dispensed by the Buddha (emphasis below is mine): > Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; > finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for > sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather > uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so SHOULD the bhikkhu in > whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be > without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the > removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then > the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By > their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes > unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). > ===================== He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful thoughts, for then those thoughts will disappear, and then the mind will settle down. It is not merely said descriptively that WHEN there is reflection, useful conditions arise, or that there IS reflecting and then useful conditions arise. It is said that a man SHOULD engage in such reflection in order for the useful conditions to arise. This is instruction. It is prescription. It is advice to engage in useful intentional action (kusala kamma). With metta, Howard 52262 From: "Jean" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 8:43am Subject: My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? jean_5004 Dear Sarah & Nina, So glad to see you!Thank Sarah for introducing us 3Chibs(Wendy, Yang & me) to Nina.Just a little to add: we are still M.A. students now. Second,I appreciated Nina so much! Because of Nina's message concerned with Mahaapaccarii on year 2003 leading me found out the DSG. My work now is try to find a way & make a detailed rules and regulations practising "the money rules" on the present day without involving in the arguments. i.e. let the monks & nuns could judge right and wrong actions easily on the money rules so that they can keep these sikkhaapadas easier. I suppose the practicability would more important than the academic achievement on my work. metta Jean --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Jean (& Nina) > > --- Jean wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > I'm from Taiwan/native speaker of Chinese. > ... > S: Thx - it explains how you read Chinese texts. Thank you also for > introducing your colleagues. You all have very interesting topics for your > research. > > (Nina, there are three new members inc. Jean from CHIBS, a university in > Taiwan. They are all PhD students. Jean is the one who originally asked > about this ancien Sinhalese commentary, but we got it sorted out.) > > > > > so called 'because it was composed on a raft somewhere in > > Ceylon'." > > > > Could you explain "because it was COMPOSED ON a RAFT " more? > > > > Is "raft" something like boat? Why/How the "Mahaa-paccarii" > > composed > > > > on a raft? Thank you very much! > > > .... > > > S: Composed on a raft means that it was written/compiled by the > > author > > > whilst sitting on a raft. <...> > > J:It sounds very interesting! I couldn't image that an Atthakathaa, > > a great work, was written/compiled by the author whilst sitting on a > > raft! I always think it must be compiled by some persons & costed a > > long period...By the way, I checked the book ""???quot;`•§"T‚ÌŒ¤ > > ? "(The research of the Texts of the South traditional Buddhism. ?¨ > > It's my translation.)by Makoto Nagai in Japanes(1936), it gave the > > same explaination as you mentioned above. > ... > S: All our sources point to the same meaning which is good. perhaps the > raft was the coolest and most relaxing place to write. > ..... > > J:In fact,the paragraphs I transl. has transl.into English already > > by Dhamminda Bhikkhu in his"A Life Free of Money". They contained 10 > > types and 2 classes of kappiya-kaarakas, the example for explaining > > the Rupiya samvohara sikkhapada called'the four unallowable bowls' > > etc.. Reading these, we can know more details on practising the > > money rules, i.e. nissaggiya paacittiya 18,19,20 & 10 of auxiliary, > > and prpractise them easier on this modern days both to Bhikkhus and > > kappiya-kaarakas. > > Some people maybe think some Bhikkhu Rules has outmoded, because > > they cause some inconveniences on daily life now. The question here > > is: Is 'making conveniences for monks/nuns' the purpose of that the > > Buddha made Rules for Bhikkhus? > ... > S: Right from the beginning there was controversy and we know that there > were for 'convenience' from the very start, but the (Theravada) > Elders insisted on keeping the entire Vinaya as it was laid down by the > Buddha. > .... > >These are my superficial view until > > now. And I'm afraid of that I cannot temporarily check the massage > > frequently. Because I have to spend most of the time to flesh my > > thesis out and finish it in time as soon as I can from now on. > > Thank you again for your help. I'll be back soon! > ... > S: Keep updating us and let us know if you have any further Qus or > Answers. We all understand about yr time constraints. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > 52263 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 4:08am Subject: Re: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequis... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/9/05 10:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Ken. > I did not follow the thread, but here is the Co, I translated before. We > should reflect on the whole sutta, this is only a part of it. > op 09-11-2005 14:18 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >In a message dated 11/9/05 12:00:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >kenhowa@... displays a prescription dispensed by the Buddha (emphasis > >below is mine): > > > >>Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; > >>finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for > >>sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather > >>uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so SHOULD the bhikkhu in > >>whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be > >>without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the > >>removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then > >>the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By > >>their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes > >>unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). > >> > >===================== > > **** > Commentary: > Someone who walks fast may think of what use this is and he will then walk > more slowly. The Commentary uses a simile. When a thought occurs to the > bhikkhu this is like walking fast. When he considers the occurring of such a > thought it is like his walking more slowly. When he has investigated the > occurring of such a thought he uses it as the subject of his meditation. > N: He can be aware of his unwholesome thoughts and see them as only > conditioned elements. Then they are his subject of meditation. When there is > awareness and understanding of akusala as naama, the citta at that moment is > kusala citta and it is accompanied by calm. > The Co. compares the bhikkhu¹s development of vipassana and his attainment > of arahatship to the sitting posture of that person. > The bhikkhu who spent the whole day with the fruition-attainment (phala > samaapatti), experiencing nibbaana, is compared to the person who was lying > down. > N: Those who have developed jhaana and vipassanaa and attained enlightenment > can, after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away experience nibbaana again > with fruition-consciousness(lokuttara vipaakacitta). We see that the > postures of body, walking, standing, sitting and laying down, symbolize > different stages of development of pañña even to the degree of arahatship. > Co: It is explained that the movement of the thoughts becomes calmer for the > bhikkhu who realizes what the cause and condition is and then these thoughts > can be abandoned. > N: They are abandoned through vipassana. The abandonment of akusala is true > calm. > ***** > Nina. > ========================== Nina, there is no problem for me in what is said in the commentary. It is irrelevant, however, to the point that I made, and I stand by that point. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52264 From: nina Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 10:52am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, But Sawong: Should there be síla, morality, before one develops satipatthåna? Sujin: If there is only síla but no understanding one cannot develop satipatthåna. But Sawong: Someone has a question about satipatthåna. In the Satipatthåna Sutta, in the section on the four kinds of Clear Comprehension, it is explained that there should be clear comprehension while standing, walking, sitting and lying down. The question is, who walks, whose walking is it, depending on what can one walk? These questions are asked so that one can know in what way there can be sati. Sujin: If one thinks, I am walking, is that correct? At this moment nobody walks, but people are sitting. Is it correct to think, I am sitting? If someone has right understanding, it does not mean that he just thinks that he has right understanding, but there must be realities appearing and he should correctly understand the characteristics of those realities. However, if someone is not aware of the reality that appears but he merely thinks, there is no ³I², no self, is that the true realization of anattå? If someone is merely thinking that there is no self, he does not benefit from the teaching of the Sammåsambuddha who attained the truth by his enlightenment. He may merely be thinking, ³It is not I who is sitting.² The Buddha realized through his enlightenment the true nature of realities. There must be characteristics of realities that appear, but we never knew this before. We had wrong understanding, because we took realities for self. Paññå, right understanding, can begin to develop when we have listened to the Dhamma the Buddha explained. He explained the characteristics of the dhammas he had penetrated through his enlightenment. That is why we can understand that there are realities. We all are inclined to take the rúpas of the body from head to toe for self. Even when those rúpas do not appear, we know through remembrance that we have a body. At this moment people perceive that there is a self, and this is wrong remembrance of self, attå-saññå. When one does not know the truth and takes the rúpas of the body for self, what rúpa does one take for self? Can anybody tell which rúpa of the body he takes for self? But Sawong: All rúpas. Sujin: What characteristic do all rúpas have? If there are no characteristics that appear, can we say that there are rúpas? There must be realities that appear but people do not know them as they are, they take them for self. Therefore, my question is: what rúpa that appears in the body one takes for self? If there are no rúpas, can there be a body? What rúpas are there in the body? But Sawong: There are coldness, heat, softness and hardness in the body. ****** Nina. 52265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. perfections. nilovg Hi Steve, always good to hear from you. I like your Q. > Nina:> >BTW perfections are not perfections without satipatthana. >> > Steve:> When you have some time could you perhaps elaborate on this > comment >> and why satipatthana makes metta for example, a perfection. ---------- N: Sarah answered, but I may add something. As she said: The paramis are closely connected with satipatthana. Our goal is the eradication from wrong view and all defilements. We are like sick people and cannot make our long journey to the ultimate goal without the paramis that vitalize us on our way. Take truthfulness, without satipatthana, the development of right understanding of the true characterstics of realities, there cannot be truthfulness. We have to be so sincere and not pretend that we know what we do not know yet. That would be a serious hindrance. Determination: this is determination to follow the Path leading to the goal. Metta: we think of others' wellbeing, without expectation of any gain for ourselves. Without satipatthana we may take selfish affection for metta. Patience and endurance: we need great patience to carefully examine and investigate whatever reality appears in order to see it as it is. Without any expectation of becoming enlightened soon. If we have expectations, we are clinging to self again: we want to be a wise person, it is always self, self. These are example showing how closely satipatthana and the paramis are connected. Nina. 52266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: just back. nilovg Hi Tep, yes, I kept it all in my files. We can continue, Nina. op 09-11-2005 00:32 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Before leaving for India, you wrote me an email as follows. > > > please would you keep your letter in your files? 52267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 288 Conceit -maana (k) nilovg Hi Hal, Sarah handed me your Q on wrong view and conceit, and she just answered with examples. That is the best way. You suggested conceit as an affective mode and wrong view a cognitive one, but I rather think of examples. Conceit can be caorse or more refined and it does not always involve comparing. It is like advertizing oneself, flying a banner, finding oneself important. The is not always wrong view. This word oneself denotes this individual, different from others. One may cling to oneself with lobha without wrong view, with wrong view or with conceit. We may notice smelly tourists, having no clean shirts. There may be conceit before we know it, and no view of permanent beings at the same time. Conceit and wrong view never arise together. If they arise they accompany citta rooted in attachment, as you quoted the Guide. Our host and hostess used three cell phones during dinner: I had conceit, thinking, I would never do that. So often when thinking about others conceit can arise. Or we may boast about this or that achievement. Wrong view is a wrong interpretation of reality, seeing things as permanent or self. Nina. 52268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? nilovg Dear Jean, thank you for your kind words, and I wish you all success with your thesis. I had forgotten about Mahaapaccarii, compiled on a raft. Was it on the Pali list? Nina. op 09-11-2005 17:43 schreef Jean op jean_5004@...: > Dear Sarah & Nina, > So glad to see you!Thank Sarah for introducing us 3Chibs(Wendy, Yang > & me) to Nina.Just a little to add: we are still M.A. students now. > Second,I appreciated Nina so much! Because of Nina's message > concerned with Mahaapaccarii on year 2003 leading me found out the > DSG. 52269 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 11:54am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Andrew (and Ken H, James), Very good dialog! Andrew, I have to comment on something you said. I.e., "If only someone could spell it out for us in black and white terms that would penetrate our understanding. But understanding can't be forced. It arises only when the conditions are right." Personally, I think the Dharma has been spelled it out for us in black and white terms that would penetrate our understanding. Most of us do understand it. All the post on DSG alone can attest to this. I think the problem is giving up what needs to be given up and doing what needs to be done. I believe even you know what needs to be given up and what needs to be done. It is DESIRE that always gets in the way. Ignorance only gets in the way sometimes. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Wednesday, 02 November, 2005 05:17 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) Hi Ken H and James I often have things explained to me and they just don't register until somebody tries a new angle. Of course, the Buddha spent many years explaining essentially the same things in different ways to help people of different dispositions and inclinations and accumulations awaken. So we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves. James wrote: what about when the Buddha explained the Noble Eightfold > Path? Ken, he explained it outright, in full sight, in black and > white (okay, now I am rhyming ;-). There are no secrets to his > teaching. I know that that is hard to accept. It was even hard to > accept in the Buddha's time- so he explained that he wasn't > a "closed fist" teacher. A gentle reminder. Let's see exactly what the Buddha said about his Dhamma immediately after his Enlightenment: "This Dhamma that I have attained is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in worldliness, takes delight in worldliness, rejoices in worldliness. It is hard for such a generation to see such a truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependant origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the reliquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana. If I were to teach the Dhamma, others would not understand me, and that would be wearying and troublesome for me." [Ariyapariyesana Sutta, transl BB & B Nanamoli] My comment: it was hard then, it's hard now. If only someone could spell it out for us in black and white terms that would penetrate our understanding. But understanding can't be forced. It arises only when the conditions are right. Enjoy your extended break James. Best wishes Andrew T 52270 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 0:20pm Subject: Re: 'A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity ...' Ajahn Sujato jwromeijn Dear Christine and all A second message on Ven. Sujato ebook 'A history of mindfulness' I start reading and will ask: forget the irony in my message of some hours ago. It's a fascinating book; try to read it with an open mind. And I'm still more interested in your opinion (as one of the DSG- participants regularly listening to Sujin, I'm of course thinking on the questions of James about het teachings). Metta Joop 52271 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: Anatta and "Free Will" buddhistmedi... Dear KKT - >KKT: We both really want to learn about the meaning of free-will. Tep: It is true. >KKT: Besides, your clear answers to my messages stimulate me alot to give back more thoughtful answers. Tep: Based on that, I am going to assume that our discussion so far has not left any loose ends (despite the fact that my questions in the previous post are unanswered ). >KKT: Now I try to combine the two first definitions of free-will to have this third one: 3. FREE-WILL = THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE & THE CAPACITY TO CONTROL (OR RATHER TO FULFIL) THIS CHOICE. For example, I have the choice to promise you to meet you tomorrow. This is my free- will, the freedom of choice, OK? But tomorrow on the way to the meeting I might have an accident which prevents me to meet you. So my promise is not fulfilled. ... I can choose but I cannot control the outcome of my choice. Tep: For the ordinary people although we are free to make almost any choice, we are not free to dictate outcomes in many cases. Yet, we can "control" outcomes of some other cases: in your example, if the accident is not serious I still can meet you. Or, I can call you (by my cell phone) and ask you to meet me at the hospital. >KKT: Now I introduce a new definition of free-will: not only have I the freedom of choice but also have I the capacity to fulfil this choice. Therefore in the above example, IF I REALLY HAVE (SUCH KIND OF) FREE-WILL then nothing (an accident for example) might happen to prevent me to arrive at the meeting. Such kind of Free-Will sounds << superhuman >> :-)) But I think this is the kind of free-will of the Buddha: He can remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it if he wish! :-)) Tep: Yes, I agree. >KKT: And we, as common worldlings, have we such kind of free-will in a much more little measure ? Tep: I guess that "kind of free will" cannot be extended to worldings. Now, what final conclusion can we draw from the discussion of free- will? :-) Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > > Now I introduce a new definition > of free-will: not only have I > the freedom of choice but also have I > the capacity to fulfil this choice. > Therefore in the above example, > IF I REALLY HAVE (SUCH KIND OF) FREE-WILL > then nothing (an accident for example) > might happen to prevent me to arrive at > the meeting. > > (snipped) > 52272 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Asubha Bhavana buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Do you have any comment for the following ? >Tep: The emphasis on abandoning of sakkaaya-ditthi by the Buddha in S.N. I, Ch 3, A Sword (B.B. translation, p. 100) is , perhaps, because it is generally more important than abandoning lust (lust is on and off, identity views are there all the time). However, lust was the most urgent thing in the young Vangisa's mind at that moment so he asked the Venerable Ananda for help. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > yes, I kept it all in my files. We can continue, > Nina. > op 09-11-2005 00:32 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > Before leaving for India, you wrote me an email as follows. > > > > > > please would you keep your letter in your files? > 52273 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Vism.XIV,197 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [FEELING] 197. In the classification (i)-(iii) into 'past', etc., the past, future, and present state of feeling should be understood according to continuity and according to moment and so on. Herein, 'according to continuity', that included in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind,77 is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'. 'According to moment, etc.: that feeling included in the trio of moments, which is in between the past time and the future time, and which is performing its own function, is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is future. --------------------------- Note 77. 'The feeling that accompanies the faith, etc., occurring in one who sees an image of the Buddha or hears the Dhamma, even for a whole day, is "present" ' (Pm.499). ************************** 197. atiitaadivibhaage panettha santativasena kha.naadivasena ca vedanaaya atiitaanaagatapaccuppannabhaavo veditabbo. tattha santativasena ekaviithiekajavanaekasamaapattipariyaapannaa ekaviithivisayasamaayogappavattaa ca paccuppannaa, tato pubbe atiitaa, pacchaa anaagataa. kha.naadivasena kha.nattayapariyaapannaa pubbantaaparantamajjhattagataa sakicca~nca kurumaanaa vedanaa paccuppannaa, tato pubbe atiitaa, pacchaa anaagataa. 52274 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) philofillet Hi Charles > It is DESIRE that always gets in the way. Ignorance only gets in the way > sometimes. Interesting point. I might reverse it, though. There is ignorance with every akusala (unwholesome) citta. That much is certain. With many (the majority, I'd guess) of akusala cittas, there is lobha, unwholesome desire. However, on occasion, the desire can be a wholesome cetasika, chanda, which when wholesome is wholesome zeal for the path. I think because of ignorance, we don't know when the desire is wholesome chanda, and when it is lobha. So I would say ignorance is the central obstacle. No fast way around it, though! :) Phil 52275 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 8:32pm Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina > > Yes, I appreciate this. I think she helps people to not settle in > > comfortably with their favourite pieces of theory. > ------- > N: It is not quite that. We all are inclined to theory, to get stuck with > it. Not just a few people. Yes. The nose doesn't come out of the book, so to speak. As Jon says in one of the talks, it seems easier when listening to a talk (and even more so when participating, I imagine) to remember that the point of Abhidhamma is not what is in the book. On the other hand, the value of theoretical understanding is great. A necessary condition to deeper understanding. Sometimes I feel that A. Sujin could be a bit more forthcoming when people ask for theoretical pointers. I think, for example, when Azita asks about the motion rupa or when a Thai fellow (Kom, I guess) asks about the 20 sakkaya ditthis (sp?). In both cases, they are told that when they know they will know. Yes, but theoretical pointers can also be helpful condition. For example, in your book on the rupas you write about how the motion rupa is related to pressure, which is helpful to know, I feel. And in his commentary to the Samyutta Nikaya anthology, Bhikkhu Bodhi quotes some helpful commmentarial material that could help to condition better understanding of the sakkhaya ditthis. Am I complaining? No, though it sounds like it. I am just interested in the way right theoretical understanding can help to condition more direct understanding. Of course there is the risk of getting stuck in theory, but if one has the conditions to not get stuck, one won't get stuck, and if one doesn't have the conditions to understand, one will get stuck in something or other related to Dhamma - that's the way the cookie crumbles. > All these things became clearer during the discussions. > -------- > Ph: But for me, everything about Dhamma is only > > thinking, thinking, thinking. No satipatthana yet. > ------- > N: It is so common for all of us, and we discussed it. I shall write about > it. We need to be courageous. Yes. I really have come to see that dome of lobha A. Sujin talks about. I really have come to sense how the world is burning with greed, aversion and delusion through the eye, ear, tongue etc and especially the mind. If there is so much akusala and so little kusala, what hope is there? That's where the courage, patience and good cheer come in. I > ------ > Ph: So I should have > > said that thinking about the perfections can be very helpful in > > daily life - it is not the actual perfections, not the direct > > knowing of the arising of kusala. Just thinking. But still helpful. > ------ > N: Lodewijk said that reflection on them can be a condition to apply them. > We can be reminded. Absolutely true. I have some specific examples of ways in which listening and reflecting on the perfections have helped me later in daily life, though without satipatthana. But I will leave it at that, for now. No need to reply, Nina. I know you are busy, and I am just doodling here on my day off. Phil 52276 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 10:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 306 Aversion-dosa (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)contd] Questions i Is the suppression of unpleasant feeling always done with kusala citta? ii What are the proximate causes for dosa? iii When there are unpleasant “worldly conditions” we are likely to have dosa. How can right understanding of kamma and vipåka help us to have kusala citta instead of dosa? iv Why is there no dosa in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the arúpa-brahma planes? v Why can dosa not be eradicated without developing right understanding of nåma and rúpa? Why can it not be eradicated by just developing loving kindness? vi When we suffer from sickness and when we are about to die what is the most beneficial thing that can be done in order not to be overcome by dosa? What should be done if dosa arises in such circumstances? ***** [Aversion (dosa) finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 52277 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 0:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sarah (I think) > > I am being my usual self an picking at some thing that was said: ... S: You're welcome! .... > > "Doubt is real. Like is real. Anger is real....all the mental factors > which make up sankhara khandha are real. However, 'self', 'tree', Swee > Boon' and 'Sarah' are imagined. The thinking about them is anicca,dukkha > and anatta, but 'self' and 'tree' are not, because they don't exist. > > Any disagreements?" > > I would have to disagree, but first I would have to ask how can trees > not > exist and anger do exist? ... S: When you touch a tree, what is experienced? When you look out of a window, what is seen? On the other hand, when you're mad, what is experienced? .... > > Do you believe that only emotions are real/exist? ... S: No. I gave the particular examples I did because we were talking about sankhara khandha which only includes mental factors. .... > Or > Do you believe that only what is in the mind is real/exist? ... S: No. Rupas are real too. The hardness which is experienced when we touch a tree is real. The visible object which is seen when we look out of the window or now at the computer is real. The sounds we can hear as we type are real. ... > Or > Do you believe that only mental states/factors are real? > > Do you believe all existence is a mixture of the real and unreal (I > assume > this is what you mean by imagined)? ... S: All 'existence' is a 'mixture' of namas (those 'mental' qualities which can experience objects and rupas (those 'physical' qualities which can never experience objects). Concepts which are imagined don't exist. This is why I sat 'imagined'. A tree is an idea we have on account of what is seen and touched and remembered. Metta, Sarah p.s re your post #52258, attachments are not accepted here. Pls post a short extract only with your comments for further discussion on DO and arahants or else give us a link to a website where the article can be found. ======================== 52278 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India Photos sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Thanks for elaborating on your reflections in and about India. --- Sukinder wrote: > It wasn't a highlight or anything like that, but something I noted as > happening to me when it seemed that others were having spontaneous > kusala arise on being at the holy places. This may be because I almost > never read the suttas, so in my mind there are hardly any stories about > Buddha and his life and times. .... S: Of course, for all of us there were and are different moments - kusala and akusala following each other all the time. How do we ever know for others? How can we tell when there is wholesome joy and when there is attachment? I think it's useless to speculate or compare or to be concerned. You always consider the teachings deeply and I think that some of the special activities at the Holy Places are more of a lifelong dream or special wish for those who have been brought up as Buddhists than for us. It doesn't matter at all. Developing understanding is the highest respect and kusala. You refer to different accumulations and your expectations. It helps a lot to know the truth, doesn't it? Any disappointments usually come down to such expectations. I felt very happy with the discussions and was very content on the long bus rides this time. But I felt disappointed about getting so sick again:-/ It all just comes down to the clingings from day to day, moment to moment, just like now. I'm glad you wrote more on suttamayapanna etc and your other reflections in your post to Howard. I liked the part in particular where you said 'one understands one's accumulations more and is less concerned about trying to be 'different'. One is detached from whatever has already been conditioned to arise....'. Yes, whenever there is the wishing to have different or better accumulations, it just indicates more clinging to the self and no understanding at all. The accumulations have to be known just as they are, not as we wish they are! Like you also said, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha 'must agree completely'. I'll look f/w to hearing any more of your reflections. Metta, Sarah ======= I realize though, that on another level, > one might think about the Teachings, feel grateful about them, and also > see the significance of these holy places, in that they were "only here" > > that the events connected to Buddha's life *could* have taken place. > That is, He could not have been born any where else, enlightened any > where else, taught his first sermon anywhere else nor chosen to pass > away anywhere else. But such thoughts almost never arose and if it did, > was never associated with any sati and panna. :-/ > > What happened instead was that I thought them all to be concepts, and > there was reflecting about how this was so natural to arise. Different > people will have different concepts arising while in those places, all > of > which is largely influenced by accumulations. Other influences would be > the present conditions, including health, weather conditions and any > stories about `self' and `other' going through one's mind. Actually, my > main interest for going to India was to have the chance to associate for > > an extended period of time, with wise friends, thinking that we may > have lots of discussions (though this did not happen). But of course > this > is an example of conditioned 'thinking' that I have just been referring > to. > Believe it or not, I did not even have the idea that we were traveling > to "The Four Holy Places" and the significance of this. I realized this > only > half way through our tour :-p. But this is my accumulations; I don't > register with enthusiasm any stories about events in my life. So I guess > > I am not a person to ask about `highlights' ;-). > > Wanted to write more on this topic, particularly the relationship > between suttamaya panna, cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna, > but maybe will do so in another post. > > Metta, > > Sukin. > > Ps: Christine, thanks for the photo you sent me off-list. It was too big > > for my very slow internet connection, but I finally downloaded it. I > will > create a separate album to place this picture in, but will have to > significantly reduce the size. Would you like to upload other photos > into > the album? If so, here is my log-in name and password: > > Name: sukinderpal > Password: harkaran > > 52279 From: nina Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:17am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 197 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 197 and Tiika Intro: As we have seen, ruupa has been classified as present, past and future with reference to extent (or life span, addhaa), to continuity (serial presence, santati) to period, samaya, and to moment, kha.na. As to extent, we read (Vis. 187): Herein, (a) firstly, 'according to extent': in the case of a single becoming of one [living being], previous to rebirth-linking is 'past', subsequent to death is 'future', between these two is 'present'. As to continuity, ruupas are produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. The ruupas that fall away are replaced so long as there are conditions for it. Ruupas originate successively produced by temperature or by heat or by cittas that arise in succession, in one process, in one impulsion, or in one attainment. As we have seen, ruupas produced by kamma are not classified as present, past or future. As to period, samaya, we read: Moment, kha.na, does not refer to life span, nor to serial presence or period. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense, namely arising, presence, and dissolution. Thus, it has a very precise meaning. It refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution. The first three classifications are figurative expressions (sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya), they are wider in meaning. Only the classification according to moment, kha.na, is to be taken literally. This is very precise, it is exactly one moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its function. The Tiika states that as regards feeling, the classifications according to extent and period has not been spoken of. Feelings are classified as past, future and present only according to continuity and to moment. -------- Text Vis. 197. In the classification (i)-(iii) into 'past', etc., the past, future, and present state of feeling should be understood according to continuity and according to moment and so on. --------- N: Feeling is naama, and as the Tiika states, naama is quick to change (lahuparivattino aruupadhammaa). There is a great variety of feelings and these have been classified according to their nature. There are happy feeling, unhappy feeling and indifferent feeling. Feeling can be bodily or mental. --------- Text Vis.:Herein, 'according to continuity', that included in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind[77], is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is 'future'. -------- --------------------------- Note 77, taken from the Tiika: 'The feeling that accompanies the faith, etc., occurring in one who sees an image of the Buddha or hears the Dhamma, even for a whole day, is "present" ' (Pm.499). -------- N: Confidence in the Dhamma can condition happy feeling and this may arise successively when seeing a Buddha image of when listening to the Dhamma. It is called present in continuity (santati) because it occurs in association with an object of one kind as the Tiika explains. -------- Text Vis.: 'According to moment, etc.: that feeling included in the trio of moments, which is in between the past time and the future time, and which is performing its own function, is 'present'. Before that is 'past'. Subsequent is future. --------------------------- N: The Tiika states that according to the afore-said method, this refers to condition (hetupaccaya) and function. Feeling accompanies citta and it arises and falls away extremely rapidly. Also when we read about its successive arising on account of one object, it should be remembered that feeling arises and falls away very rapidly. ---------- Conclusion: We attach great importance to feeling, but it should be remembered that naama dhamma is quick to change. We may think for a long time about pleasant or unpleasant feeling but we forget that any feeling goes through the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution. When it has concluded these three moments it is past. This is true at this very moment. ******* Nina. 52280 From: nina Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:17am Subject: Understanding lobha and dosa nilovg Hi Phil, ------- -Ph:we > cannot know akusala cetasikas such as lobha or dosa until we know > nama from rupa. A very important point but I had some doubts about > it. ------- N: We notice dosa and feel unpleasant feeling. We believe that we experience dosa, but we do not realize it as a dhamma, arising because of its proper conditions. At the first stage of insight, the difference betrween the characteristic of naama and of ruupa is clearly realized, not before that. One begins to understand naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. This means, we begin to see the naama that appears as a dhamma and the ruupa that appears as a dhamma. Before this stage of insight is attained, there is still a notion of my dosa, and my lobha, even though we have intellectual understanding of the fact that they are cetasikas, non-self. We have not really penetrated the truth of anattaa. ****** Nina. 52281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha Bhavana nilovg Hi Tep, op 09-11-2005 23:33 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The emphasis on abandoning of sakkaaya-ditthi by the Buddha in S.N. > I, Ch 3, A Sword (B.B. translation, p. 100) is , perhaps, because it is > generally more important than abandoning lust (lust is on and off, > identity views are there all the time). However, lust was the most urgent > thing in the young Vangisa's mind at that moment so he asked the > Venerable Ananda for help. -------- N: This sutta emphasizes that lobha cannot be eradicated so long as the wrong view of self is not eradicated. The Commentary explains that the deva thinks of eradication by suppressing kaamaraga, but in that way one is still bound by attachment to sensepleasures. The wrong view of self is eradicated by the sotaapanna as you know. He still has lobha and dosa but for him it is not "my lobha", "my dosa" and this makes a great deal of difference. At this stage paññaa can realize them as dhammas arisen because of conditions. It means that there is more equanimity towards all dhammas that arise and appear. Paññaa knows and detaches, knows and detaches. This is the way leading eventually towards the eradication of attachment to sensepleasures and dosa, which occurs at the third stage of enlightenment. It is the function of paññaa, not us who can eliminate them. Before any stage of enlightenment is reached, one may surreptitiously think of a self who must do away with lobha and dosa. One may consider them as very important and one wants to be a good person without defilements. In fact one clings to the idea of wanting to be a good person, this is also attachment. When one fails to suppress lobha and dosa there is frustration and disappointment, even despair. One does not see that the right cause leads to the right effect. The development of paññaa has to be in the right order. The right order in the stages of insight, and the stages of enlightenment. First thing first: we should begin to develop understanding of what appears now. When our eyes are open seeing appears. Seeing could not arise if there were no eyesense and visible object or colour. Seeing is a dhamma that arises because of its proper conditions. Realities appear one at a time through the six doors. It seems that hardness was there already for some time, but in reality it arises and then falls away. There is hardness again, but it cannot be the same. Each dhamma that arises and falls away never returns. So it is with lobha and dosa, they seem to last for a while, but they fall away immediately. However, we think of them for a long time. When we are thinking, there is no realization of their characteristics. We think of what is past instead of attending to the characteristic appearing right now. I prefer the PTS translation: It is an exhortation not to be negligent. Being mindful of any reality without any selection. Not only lobha and dosa should be known, also seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. Nina. 52282 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: Understanding lobha and dosa philofillet Hi Nina I appreciate the below, appreciate reading it and hearing it again and again. Slowly it sinks in. But what is sati-sampajanna (sp?) Something more than intellectual understanding? Because today in the Perfection of energy I heard this: "Even if one does not yet know realities as nama and rupa which are non-self, it is already a degree of sati-sampajanna (sp?) when the characteristic of akusala dhamma is known as it actually appears." This sounds as if we *can* know akusala damma before we know nama from rupa, at least to a degree that merits being called "sati- sampajanna" which sounds quite fancy. Is a low degree of "sati- sampajanna" simply intellectual understanding? Does it (as I seem to recall) mean sati with panna, in this case both of a weak degree? I looked in the glossary but couldn't find it. I am pestering you a lot these days, but back to work tomorrow so there'll be a bit less of me. Phil > N: We notice dosa and feel unpleasant feeling. We believe that we experience > dosa, but we do not realize it as a dhamma, arising because of its proper > conditions. > At the first stage of insight, the difference betrween the characteristic of > naama and of ruupa is clearly realized, not before that. One begins to > understand naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. This means, we begin to see > the naama that appears as a dhamma and the ruupa that appears as a dhamma. > Before this stage of insight is attained, there is still a notion of my > dosa, and my lobha, even though we have intellectual understanding of the > fact that they are cetasikas, non-self. We have not really penetrated the > truth of anattaa. 52283 From: "wchangli" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:04am Subject: "eva" of S54:8 (¡±13) wchangli The last sentence of S54:8 (¡±13) stated that: "Ayam eva aanaapaanasatisamaadhi saadhukam manasi kaatabbo" (PTS, p.317). > English translation by Bhikkhhu Bodhi (2000:1770) : this same concentration by mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to. >> My doubt on this paali sentence: (1) What is the grammatical function of the paali word ¡§eva¡¨ here? (2) Why ¡§eva¡¨ has been translated as ¡§same¡¦? (3) What is the whole meaning of this sentence in this paragraph? Your help are highly appreciated. Thank you. With metta Li 52284 From: nina Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:41am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, -------------- Sujin: What rúpas are there in the body? But Sawong: There are coldness, heat, softness and hardness in the body. Sujin: Thus, if the rúpas that are coldness, heat, softness or hardness do not appear, can one know their characteristics? When softness of the body appears there is the characteristic of the rúpa that is softness. The rúpa of softness outside is also softness. It is the same with the rúpas of heat or cold that are outside, rúpa is only rúpa and it does not belong to anybody. Wherever a rúpa arises, it falls away, but one does not know this. Paññå is the reality that has right understanding of the dhammas that are real, it should correctly understand them so that the clinging to the wrong view that rúpa is self can be abandoned. If someone says that paññå has right understanding of rúpa, thus, that pañña realizes rúpa as rúpa, non-self, there must be characteristics of rúpa appearing that paññå can correctly understand. Therefore, paññå can know as it is a characteristic of a rúpa that naturally appears in the body. The understanding of the characteristics of realities must be developed in a natural way. However, if someone has not heard the Dhamma, he does not understand realities. He is not aware of rúpa and he does not know what characteristic rúpa has. How could he know that rúpa is not self, not ³I²? When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he can understand that everything that arises must fall away. There isn¹t anything that belongs to a self, all realities are non-self. When we have really understood this, we can investigate the rúpa that appears in the body and we can know what its characteristic is. At that moment there is sati that is aware of a characteristic of rúpa appearing in the body and thus, there can gradually be the correct understanding that this is only a type of reality. In that way paññå will be able to realize the arising and falling away of rúpa. Paññå can understand: first nothing appears, then there is reality, and after that there is no reality to be found [6]. When paññå realizes the characteristic of rúpa that arises and then falls away, it knows that there is no owner of the reality which is there and which then, after that, is not to be found, since it has disappeared. True pañña is able to know the characteristic of the dhamma that is real at this moment. This is something one should think over and not forget: if paññå does not know the characteristic of the reality that appears at this moment, what does paññå know? ------- footnote: 6. A reality does not come from anywhere when it arises, it does not exist before its arising. Therefore one can say: it is not. **** Nina. 52285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding lobha and dosa nilovg Hi Phil, op 10-11-2005 10:57 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > But what is sati-sampajanna (sp?) Something more than > intellectual understanding? Because today in the Perfection of > energy I heard this: > > "Even if one does not yet know realities as nama and rupa which > are non-self, it is already a degree of sati-sampajanna (sp?) when > the characteristic of akusala dhamma is known as it actually > appears." .... Is a low degree of "sati- > sampajanna" simply intellectual understanding? Does it (as I seem to > recall) mean sati with panna, in this case both of a weak degree? --------------- N: It is not theoretical, but here it is a beginning of direct awareness and understanding. But the characteristic of akusala dhamma does not appear clearly as a naama dhamma, such as is the case when nama and ruupa are clearly distinguished. So long as they are not clearly distinguished, the knowledge of dhammas is still weak. Nina. 52286 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] "eva" of S54:8 (¡±13) nilovg Hi Li, op 10-11-2005 15:04 schreef wchangli op wchangli@...: > The last sentence of S54:8 (¡±13) stated that: > "Ayam eva aanaapaanasatisamaadhi saadhukam manasi kaatabbo" > (PTS, p.317). ------ Nina: PTS English: he must give strict attention to this same intent concentration... eva: it is emphatic; so, just. In this sutta many explanations are given about the benefits of this concentration. The word eva seems to point to the importance of this concentration. The English word can also have the function of emphasis. Nina. >> English translation by Bhikkhhu Bodhi (2000:1770) : this same > concentration by mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to. > >>> My doubt on this paali sentence: > (1) What is the grammatical function of the paali word ¡§eva¡¨ here? > (2) Why ¡§eva¡¨ has been translated as ¡§same¡¦? > (3) What is the whole meaning of this sentence in this paragraph? 52287 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: 2 types of DO htootintnaing Dear Charles, Do you mean 'mundane D.O' and 'supramundane D.O'? With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > I found this, where I got it from --- ???. > > I remembered that so discussion about DO in Arhants, so I am hopping it will > stimulate some more discussion. If it is not possible to read let me know > and I will convert it to text. > > > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dacosta Charles-DCSC001 [mailto:DCSC001@m...] > Sent: Wednesday, 06 July, 2005 17:51 > To: 'Charles DaCosta' > Subject: Emailing: 2 types of DO.jpg > > <<2 types of DO.jpg>> > Your files are attached and ready to send with this message. > 52288 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing Dear Tep, Of course. It is a good practice to exchange. Agreeing and disagreeing are not problems. According to Kaalaama Sutta when people agree that agreed facts do not necessarily become truth. With Metta, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo - > > It is a nice relief to me when a thread is cleanly wrapped up. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Tep, > > > > Thanks for your reply to my late reply. Now it is done. I agree. > > > > Quarrelling is quarrelling and friends are friends, :-)). > > > (snipped). > > > > The Buddha did not allow anything to add to 'Dhamma and Vinaya'. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > PS: Dhamma is very close to Abhidhamma. But not close to Sutta, which > > means thread. > > > > Firends should not be afraid to speak their minds. So we will continue to > disagree and agree, just like this time. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > > ======= > 52289 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:33pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 buddhistmedi... Dera Htoo - Thank you for the discussion about agreeing/disagreeing. > Htoo: > Of course. It is a good practice to exchange. Agreeing and > disagreeing are not problems. According to Kaalaama Sutta > when people agree that agreed facts do not necessarily become > truth. > That is attaching to views -- i.e. thinking of agreeable words as "our agreement" and become delighted. But do you know what the "yoke of view" is? The yoke (bond) of views is obsession with 'view-passion, view- delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view- fascination, view-craving' [Anguttara Nikaya IV.10 :Yoga Sutta ]. Such attachment is why I have found it difficult to stop posting at DSG!! { : > )) Regards, Tep ====== 52290 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:51pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - It was very nice of you to give such a clear and detailed reply. >Tep: ... lust is on and off, > identity views are there all the time. >However, lust was the most urgent > thing in the young Vangisa's mind at that moment >so he asked the > Venerable Ananda for help. N: The wrong view of self is eradicated by the sotaapanna as you know. He still has lobha and dosa but for him it is not "my lobha", "my dosa" and this makes a great deal of difference. At this stage paññaa can realize them as dhammas arisen because of conditions. It means that there is more equanimity towards all dhammas that arise and appear. Paññaa knows and detaches, knows and detaches. ... ... T: Prior to panna at the sotapanna level, that is supported by equanimity that freely "knows and detaches, knows and detaches", isn't "suppressing kaamaraga" by asubha sanna (as described in the Instruction to Vangisa below) an effective first-aid for distinguishing the fire? ................. N: Being mindful of any reality without any selection. Not only lobha and dosa should be known, also seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. Tep: That is working great when the kammaraga (or dosa) is not overhelming the mind. Otherwise, mindfulness just goes out the door ! Samyutta Nikaya VIII.4 : Ananda Sutta, Ananda (Instructions to Vangisa) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn8-4.html On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then early in the morning he put on his robes and, carrying his bowl & outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms with Ven. Vangisa as his attendant monk. Now at that time dissatisfaction (with the chaste life) had arisen in Ven. Vangisa. Lust invaded his mind. So he addressed Ven. Ananda with this verse: With sensual lust I burn. My mind is on fire. Please, Gotama, from compassion, tell me how to put it out. [Ven. Ananda:] From distorted perception your mind is on fire. Shun the theme of the beautiful accompanied by lust. See mental fabrications as other, as stress, & not-self. Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. Develop the mind -- well-centered & one -- in the foul, through the foul. Have your mindfulness immersed in the body. Be one who pursues disenchantment. Develop the theme-less. Cast out conceit. Then, from breaking through conceit, you will go on your way at peace. ................................................. Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, (snipped) > One does not see that the right cause leads to the right effect. > The development of paññaa has to be in the right order. The right order in the stages of insight, and the stages of enlightenment. First thing first: we should begin to develop understanding of what appears now. When our eyes are open seeing appears. Seeing could not arise if there were no eyesense and visible object or colour. Seeing is a dhamma that arises because of its proper conditions. Realities appear one at a time through the six doors. It seems that hardness was there already for some time, but in reality it arises and then falls away. There is hardness again, but it cannot be the same. Each dhamma that arises and falls away never returns. So it is with lobha and dosa, they seem to last for a while, but they fall away immediately. However, we think of them for a long time. When we are thinking, there is no realization of their characteristics. We think of what is past instead of attending to the characteristic appearing right now. > I prefer the PTS translation: > Go forth, leaving soul-fallacy (sakkayaditthi) behind.> > It is an exhortation not to be negligent. Being mindful of any reality > without any selection. Not only lobha and dosa should be known, also seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. > Nina. > 52291 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,197 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - The Note below is interesting ! > --------------------------- > Note 77. 'The feeling that accompanies the faith, etc., occurring in one > who sees an image of the Buddha or hears the Dhamma, even for a >whole day, is "present" ' (Pm.499). > ************************** What about seeing a form with arisen mindfulness and wisdom? Is paccuppanna thePali for "present" ? [ what has arisen (just now), existing, present : PTS Dictionary. ] Regards, Tep ======= 52292 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - > > T: Prior to panna at the sotapanna level, that is supported by > equanimity that freely "knows and detaches, knows and detaches", > isn't "suppressing kaamaraga" by asubha sanna (as described in > the Instruction to Vangisa below) an effective first-aid for >distinguishing the fire? Please replace the word "distinguishing" above by "extinguishing" ! Thank you. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Nina - > > It was very nice of you to give such a clear and detailed reply. > 52293 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,197 lbidd2 Hi Tep, Regarding faith and the feeling that accompanies it, when you see or hear something that moves you with great faith that experience can reverberate throughout the day. It's a blessing. That is why the feeling can be classified as 'present'. It stays with you. With a moment of mundane insight or a path moment faith would be included as a universal beautiful cetasika, so the same could apply. I don't know about your pali question. Maybe Nina or Htoo? Larry ------------------------- Tep: "Hi, Larry - The Note below is interesting ! --------------------------- Note 77. 'The feeling that accompanies the faith, etc., occurring in one who sees an image of the Buddha or hears the Dhamma, even for a whole day, is "present" ' (Pm.499). ************************** What about seeing a form with arisen mindfulness and wisdom? Is paccuppanna thePali for "present" ? [ what has arisen (just now), existing, present : PTS Dictionary. ]" 52294 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:18pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,197 philofillet Hi Larry > Regarding faith and the feeling that accompanies it, when you see or > hear something that moves you with great faith that experience can > reverberate throughout the day. It's a blessing. That is why the feeling > can be classified as 'present'. It stays with you. I'm very interested in the way things we reflect on with faith (especially in the morning for me - faith seems to slid downhill after my first coffee) reverberate throughout the day. It is central to my practice. But I would wonder about "present" or "stays with you" because as we know that this reverberation is cittas rising momentarily due to conditions (natural decisive support? predominance?) A lot of those moments might feel like "present" but that is not actually the case, I'd have thought. Because there are so many moments of askula arising in between that "present" doesn't sound right to me. Of course I guess that could be different if the "great faith" is of a degree that goes beyond anything the average worlding experiences. Phil 52295 From: connie Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:00pm Subject: another ADL - audio files nichiconn hi, just wanted to say there are some talks by Sayadaw Nandamalavivamsa on "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" at www.dhammalecturevideo.org but you would want to use a broadband connection to download them as the mp3's average about 50MB and the compressed wma files (not all of which have been uploaded to the site yet) about 8MB. (3 of the mp3's also seem to be missing). These are not the same as Nina's ADL and I've just started to listen to the first one so I can't say much more about them now. peace, connie 52296 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,197 lbidd2 Phil: "But I would wonder about "present" or "stays with you" because as we know that this reverberation is cittas rising momentarily due to conditions (natural decisive support? predominance?) A lot of those moments might feel like "present" but that is not actually the case, I'd have thought. Because there are so many moments of akusala arising in between that "present" doesn't sound right to me." Hi Phil, The faith and its feeling is present whenever it arises but the object of that faith is past. When this faith etc. is experienced it is the object of a new javana citta, e.g amoha. Faith is the object decisive support condition for this new javana citta and this subsequent faith arises by means of one of the decisive support conditions (object, proximate, natural). By my reckoning all javana cittas are conditioned by one of the decisive support conditions because in the dependent arising formula craving and clinging are conditioned by decisive support condition and they are javana cittas. Decisive support is "a cogent reason". Kusala and akusala cittas arise because they seem reasonable (based on accumulations). I think we shouldn't be overly fixated on "now, now, now". If there is no appreciation of past and future there is no understanding of impermanence and dependent arising. Larry 52297 From: "Jean" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:39pm Subject: [dsg] My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? jean_5004 Dear Nina(& all), Mahaapaccarii does not existance any more in Paali literatures. We can find it only in the commentaries such as Samantapaasaadikaa, because of their quotation. You have written as below in the message #22824:...Buddhaghosa was merely a translator of old sources: the Maha-Atthakata, Maha-paccariya, and the Kurundi he found at the Great Monastery in Sri Lanka... I have a new Paali question now. The sentences of Samantapaasaadikaa stated that: (PTS SP III 677) "Etesu an~n~aataka-appavaaritesu viya patipajjitabbam. Sace sayam eva ciivaram. Aanetvaa dadanti, gahetabbam. No ce, kin~ci na vattabbaa." English translation by Bhikkhhu Dhamminda ¡§A Life Free of Money¡¨ http://www.geocities.com/venkumara/evinaya/moneyfreelife.html : In these cases a bhikhu should practice in the same way as if theywere people who are not relatives or who have not given an invitation to ask for requisites. If they of their own accord bring a rob and offer it then it can be accepted. If they don¡¦t he should not say anything. And the next sentence is: Desanaamattam eva c¡¦etam.¡¨duutena ciivaracetaapannam. pahin.eyyaa¡¨ ti sayam. aaharitvaapi pin.d.apaataadiinam. atthaaya dadantesupi eseva nayo. There is no any translation of this sentence. My doubt is on the second paali sentence: (1) By whom/ to whome spoke ¡¨duutena ciivaracetaapannam. pahin.eyya¡¨? In my opinion:(a)I suppose the tran. is: He would send a messenger with a fund for buying a rob.(b)A Bhikkhu cannot ask anyone to bring money (cf. Nissaggiya paacittiya 18,19), therefor it connot be: Please send a messenger bringing the fund of buying robs (for us). (2) Is it possible that ¡§pin.d.apaataadiinam. atthaaya¡¨means Bhikkhu? (3) What is the whole meaning of this sentence in this paragraph? Your help are highly appreciated. Thank you. With metta Jean --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jean, > thank you for your kind words, and I wish you all success with your thesis. > I had forgotten about Mahaapaccarii, compiled on a raft. Was it on the Pali > list? > Nina. > op 09-11-2005 17:43 schreef Jean op jean_5004@y...: > > > Dear Sarah & Nina, > > So glad to see you!Thank Sarah for introducing us 3Chibs(Wendy, Yang > > & me) to Nina.Just a little to add: we are still M.A. students now. > > Second,I appreciated Nina so much! Because of Nina's message > > concerned with Mahaapaccarii on year 2003 leading me found out the > > DSG. > 52298 From: "wchangli" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "eva" of S54:8 (¡±13) wchangli --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Li, > op 10-11-2005 15:04 schreef wchangli op wchangli@y...: > > > The last sentence of S54:8 (¡±13) stated that: > > "Ayam eva aanaapaanasatisamaadhi saadhukam manasi kaatabbo" > > (PTS, p.317). > ------ > Nina: PTS English: he must give strict attention to this same intent > concentration... > > eva: it is emphatic; so, just. > In this sutta many explanations are given about the benefits of this > concentration. The word eva seems to point to the importance of this > concentration. > The English word can also have the function of emphasis. > Nina. > > >> English translation by Bhikkhhu Bodhi (2000:1770) : this same > > concentration by mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to. > > > >>> My doubt on this paali sentence: > > (1) What is the grammatical function of the paali word ¡§eva¡¨ here? > > (2) Why ¡§eva¡¨ has been translated as ¡§same¡¦? > > (3) What is the whole meaning of this sentence in this paragraph? >............................... Hi Nina, thanks your reply. we (Jean,Wendy and me) are happy to meet you here. Thanks again! warmest regards Li 52299 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:30pm Subject: Leaving All Behind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Overcoming All implies the full Relinquishing and Leaving Behind of All! Bhikkhus, I will teach you the state of leaving behind all... Pay attention & listen... And what, bhikkhus, is the state of overcoming all by leaving behind all ??? The eye is to be overcome & left behind, forms are also to be left behind, visual-consciousness is to be left behind, eye-contact is to be left behind, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as cause, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that too is to be left all behind. The ear is to be overcome & left behind, sounds are also to be left behind, hearing-consciousness is to be left behind, ear-contact is to be left behind, and whatever feeling arises with ear-contact as condition, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that is indeed also to be left behind. The nose is to be overcome & left behind, smells are also to be left behind, smelling-consciousness is to be left behind, nose-contact is to be left behind, and whatever feeling arises with nose-contact as cause, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that as well is to be left behind. The tongue is to be overcome & left behind, flavour is also to be left behind, tasting-consciousness is to be left behind, tongue-contact is to be left behind, and whatever feeling arises with tongue-contact as origin, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that too is also to be left behind. The body is to be overcome & left behind, touches are also to be left behind, touching-consciousness is to be left behind, body-contact is to be left behind, and whatever feeling arises with body-contact as cause, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that in addition is to be left behind. The mind is to be overcome & left behind, mental phenomena are to be left behind, mental-consciousness is to be left behind, mental-contact is to be left behind, and whatever feeling arises with mental-contact as origin, whether pleasant, painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that indeed also is to be relinquished & left behind... This, bhikkhus, is the state of leaving behind all... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 15-6 The Salayatana section 35. Thread on Leaving: Pahana Sutta (23) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 52300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? nilovg Dear Jean, Much to my regret I cannot fit this in with a number of other pressing calls on my time. Perhaps, someone on the Pali list could help you. Why don't you try that? As I understood a bhikkhu is not supposed to ask for anything, not even a razor blade. Nina. op 11-11-2005 04:39 schreef Jean op jean_5004@...: >> > I have a new Paali question now. > The sentences of Samantapaasaadikaa stated that: (PTS SP III 677)> > And the next sentence is: > Desanaamattam eva c¡¦etam.¡¨duutena ciivaracetaapannam. pahin.eyyaa¡¨ > ti sayam. aaharitvaapi pin.d.apaataadiinam. atthaaya dadantesupi > eseva nayo. > There is no any translation of this sentence. > > My doubt is on the second paali sentence: > (1) By whom/ to whome spoke ¡¨duutena ciivaracetaapannam. > pahin.eyya¡¨? > In my opinion:(a)I suppose the tran. is: He would send a messenger > with a fund for buying a rob.(b)A Bhikkhu cannot ask anyone to bring > money (cf. Nissaggiya paacittiya 18,19), therefor it connot be: > Please send a messenger bringing the fund of buying robs (for us). > (2) Is it possible that ¡§pin.d.apaataadiinam. atthaaya¡¨means > Bhikkhu? > (3) What is the whole meaning of this sentence in this paragraph? > > Your help are highly appreciated. Thank you. > > With metta > Jean > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: >> >> Dear Jean, >> thank you for your kind words, and I wish you all success with > your thesis. >> I had forgotten about Mahaapaccarii, compiled on a raft. Was it on > the Pali >> list? >> Nina. >> op 09-11-2005 17:43 schreef Jean op jean_5004@y...: >> >>> Dear Sarah & Nina, >>> So glad to see you!Thank Sarah for introducing us 3Chibs(Wendy, > Yang >>> & me) to Nina.Just a little to add: we are still M.A. students > now. >>> Second,I appreciated Nina so much! Because of Nina's message >>> concerned with Mahaapaccarii on year 2003 leading me found out > the >>> DSG. >> > 52301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! nilovg Hi Tep, op 10-11-2005 23:51 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > N: Paññaa knows and detaches, knows > and detaches. ... ... > T: Prior to panna at the sotapanna level, that is supported by > equanimity that freely "knows and detaches, knows and detaches", > isn't "suppressing kaamaraga" by asubha sanna (as described in the > Instruction to Vangisa below) an effective first-aid for extinguishing the > fire? ---------- N: I think that also before the level of sotapanna, understanding leads already to some degree of detachment from the idea of self. A very gradual process. Looking at other suttas about asubha, I do not think any quality is developed in isolation, but always together with right understanding of rupa or nama appearing now. Thus, when someone is inclined to consider asubha, foulness, even thinking or contemplating in that way is a conditioned naama. It is not a question of doing this first, because then there is the danger of self who wants and expects gain for himself. Nekkhamma, detachment, is one of the perfections, but it is always developed together with paññaa and the other perfections. Subha saññaa is a perversity: seeing the beautiful in what is foul. It is good to be reminded of the perversities, but they can only be abandoned by paññaa that is developed stage by stage. Not only asubha saññaa has to be developed, also anattaa saññaa, aniccaa saññaa. The Buddha explained to Raahula the five khandhas, all naamas and ruupas he should be aware of. At the end of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta we read about all the good qualities he should develop. The Buddha did not tell him to develop only one thing like mindfulness of breathing or like asubha: Thus, Vangisa had to penetrate the truths of aniccaa, dukkha and anattaa. He was exhorted to develop asubha, but not only asubha and not without right understanding. Samyutta Nikaya VIII.4 : Ananda Sutta, Ananda (Instructions to > Vangisa) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn8-4.html > .... With sensual lust I burn. My mind is on fire. > Please, Gotama, from compassion, tell me how to put it out. > > [Ven. Ananda:] > > From distorted perception your mind is on fire. > Shun the theme of the beautiful accompanied by lust. > See mental fabrications as other, as stress, & not-self. > > Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. > > Develop the mind > -- well-centered & one -- > in the foul, > through the foul.... > ................................................. > N: Being mindful of any reality without any selection. Not only lobha and > dosa should be known, also seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. Moreover, lust for sensepleasures is only eradicated by the anaagaami, and that because of the development of paññaa to that degree. There is no other way. > Tep: That is working great when the kammaraga (or dosa) is not > overhelming the mind. Otherwise, mindfulness just goes out the door ! ------- N: If one thinks in that way one causes obstructions to mindfulness and understanding. One has no confidence in paññaa that fulfills its own function. If we think of a self who has to do it all, we may not believe that paññaa does its own task. Listening, and listening more helps us to have more understanding. Understanding is the goal, not "doing something" to prevent lust and aversion. We have to be sincere and scrutinize ourselves: who is doing something? We know in theory that there is no self, but have we thoroughly penetrated this truth? Your last point is worth discussing more. It touches on the way one sees sati in daily life and the way it operates. (I am going out tomorrow) Nina. 52302 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,197 nilovg Hi Phil, Larr and Tep, pacupanna, present. See my Intro: as to ruupa, As we have seen, ruupa has been classified as present, past and future with reference to extent (or life span, addhaa), to continuity (serial presence, santati) to period, samaya, and to moment, kha.na. As to feeling and the other naamakkhandhas: Feelings are classified as past, future and present only according to continuity and to moment. As to continuity: Text Vis.:Herein, 'according to continuity', that included in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind[77], is 'present'. Cittas arise and fall away so fast, and also their accompanying feeling, saññaa and the other cetasikas. Presence as to continuity, in a single cognitive series, a single impulsion, a single attainment, and that occurring in association with an objective field of one kind, can still be called present. BTW Larry, when considering conditions, we have to take into account that there are two methods: the method of the patthana and the method of the D.O. They are different contexts. If we do not distinguish them there may be confusion. True, the natural decisive support condition operates in the case of the javana cittas, and also several other condiitons. Nina. op 11-11-2005 02:18 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > A lot of those > moments might feel like "present" but that is not actually the case, > I'd have thought. Because there are so many moments of askula > arising in between that "present" doesn't sound right to me. 52303 From: "Jean" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:49am Subject: [dsg] My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? jean_5004 Dear Nina, Never mind!I can see how busy you are!Thank your suggestion. I'll try it. By the way, according to SP III 675-677, normally, Bhikkhu is allowed to ask the suitable requisites after a daayaka has given an invitation to ask for requisites. Otherwise, the subsistence for Bhikkhu is too hard. metta Jean --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jean, > Much to my regret I cannot fit this in with a number of other pressing calls > on my time. > Perhaps, someone on the Pali list could help you. Why don't you try that? > As I understood a bhikkhu is not supposed to ask for anything, not even a > razor blade. > Nina. > > op 11-11-2005 04:39 schreef Jean op jean_5004@y...: > > >> > > I have a new Paali question now. > > The sentences of Samantapaasaadikaa stated that: (PTS SP III 677) > > > And the next sentence is: > > Desanaamattam eva c¡¦etam.¡¨duutena ciivaracetaapannam. pahin.eyyaa¡¨ > > ti sayam. aaharitvaapi pin.d.apaataadiinam. atthaaya dadantesupi > > eseva nayo. > > There is no any translation of this sentence. > > > > My doubt is on the second paali sentence: > > (1) By whom/ to whome spoke ¡¨duutena ciivaracetaapannam. > > pahin.eyya¡¨? > > In my opinion:(a)I suppose the tran. is: He would send a messenger > > with a fund for buying a rob.(b)A Bhikkhu cannot ask anyone to bring > > money (cf. Nissaggiya paacittiya 18,19), therefor it connot be: > > Please send a messenger bringing the fund of buying robs (for us). > > (2) Is it possible that ¡§pin.d.apaataadiinam. atthaaya¡¨means > > Bhikkhu? > > (3) What is the whole meaning of this sentence in this paragraph? > > > > Your help are highly appreciated. Thank you. > > > > With metta > > Jean > > > > 52305 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? sarahprocter... Hi Jean, --- Jean wrote: > By the way, according to SP III 675-677, normally, Bhikkhu is > allowed to ask the suitable requisites after a daayaka has given an > invitation to ask for requisites. Otherwise, the subsistence for > Bhikkhu is too hard. ... S: Yes, this is what I understand. Otherwise the daayaka would never know what is required. I can't help with your Pali trans qus in your other message, but I wonder if you have access to a good copy of the Patimokkha and Vinaya itself (as you're referring to the comy on them)? I have in front of me a good copy of the Patimokkha (PTS, transl by Norman) which has the Pali and English side by side. I'm sure you have access to a copy too. Under nissaggiyapaacittiyaa it gives the rules concerning robes and robefunds etc which your comy notes may be based on. The last one is: "8. [It may be that] by a householder or householder's wife, not related [to the bhikkhu], a robe fund (ciivaracetaapana.m) has been laid by specifically for a bhikkhu, [thinking], 'Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, I will dress the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe.' If that bhikkhu should, having gone there without being previously invited, suggest an alternative in respect of the robe, [saying], '[It would be] truly venerable if one, having purchased this or that kind of robe with this robe fund, dress me [with that],' because of desire for a fine [robe], there is an offence entailing expiation with forfeiture." ..... I'm sure you also have access to I.B.Horner's translation of the Vinaya Pitaka, 'Book of the Discipline' which gives all the background details and stories behind the laying down of the various rules. It may also help. As I said before, I hope the comy, the Sp gets translated into English too. Good luck with your translation points. Let us know if you get it sorted out and keep us posted on your research. Metta, Sarah p.s If by any chance you don't have access to these texts and wish me to check anything, pls say. ========= 52306 From: nina Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:52am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia nilovg Dear friends, But Sawong: The Commentary to the Vinaya, the ³Samantapåsådikå² explains about the degrees of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats with the four ³analytical knowledges², patisambhidå [7] . In the following period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka, those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of thousand years there are only sotåpannas. However, in the Commentary to the Suttanta it is different. In the first period of thousand years there were arahats with the four analytical knowledges, in the second period of thousand years there were arahats with the six superpowers, abhiññås [8]. In the third period of thousand years there are arahats with the threefold knowledge, tevijja [9] . In the fourth period of thousand years there are arahats who are sukkha vipassaka and in the fifth period of thousand years there are non-returners. Why are these explanations different? Sujin: In the ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X, on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. In the ³Sumangalavilåsiní², in the Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², no. 28, ³The Faith that satisfied², the declining of Buddhism in the Buddha era of a former Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, has been explained. We are living in the Buddha era of the Buddha Gotama. At this moment we are living in the third period of thousand years after the passing away of the Buddha Gotama. We should not think of persons, it is more important to think of the way leading to the realization of the four noble truths. If people do not follow the right way there will not even be an ariyan of the degree of the sotåpanna. But Sawong: Of the two ways of mental development, vipassanå and samatha, which way leads more rapidly to nibbåna? Sujin: Samatha is the development of calm, freedom from akusala. When this way of kusala has become firmer one can attain access concentration and then attainment concentration, jhåna of different degrees. If the jhånacitta arises shortly before the dying-consciousness it conditions birth as a brahma in a brahma plane. However, if one does not develop the paññå that knows at this moment the characteristics of realities as they are, there is no way of attaining nibbåna. Characteristics of dhammas are truly appearing, and if one does not know them how could one come to realize nibbåna? ****** Footnotes: 7. Only the arahat with the highest attainment has these analytical knowledges. 8. These are magical powers, divine ear, penetration of the mind of others, divine eye, remembrance of former lives and the eradication of all defilements. 9. These are remembrance of former lives, divine eye and eradication of all defilements. ***** Nina. 52307 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hello everyone, I came across this intersting sutta on directed and undirected meditation. Note that the Buddha motions towards the roots of trees and empty places even for the 'undirected' 4 foundations of mindfulness (Jon, I think we discussed this). The reasons for the directed meditation is simply the mind is scattered and not in a state for pursuing the 4 foundations of mindfulness, hence for it's preperation. metta Matheesha ---------------------- SN XLVII.10 Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta Directed and Undirected Meditation (excerpt) Translated from the Pali by Andrew Olendzki PTS page: S v 154 CDB ii 1638 --------------------------------- Copyright © 2005 Andrew Olendzki. Access to Insight edition © 2005 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- The venerable Ananda arose early one morning, and taking up his robe and bowl approached a certain settlement of nuns, where he sat down on a seat that had been prepared. A number of nuns approached the venerable Ananda, and after greeting him, sat down to one side. So seated, these nuns said this to the venerable Ananda: "There are here, Ananda sir, a number of nuns who abide with minds well established in the four foundations of mindfulness. Their understanding is becoming ever greater and more excellent." "So it is, Sisters, so it is!" replied Ananda. "Indeed for anybody, Sisters, whether monk or nun, who abides with a mind well established in the four foundations of mindfulness — it is to be expected that their understanding becomes ever greater and more excellent." [Ananda later relates this exchange to the Buddha, who approves of his response and then elaborates:] Here, Ananda, a monk abides contemplating body as body* — ardent, fully aware, mindful — leading away the unhappiness that comes from wanting the things of the world. And for one who is abiding contemplating body as body,* a bodily object arises, or bodily distress, or mental sluggishness, that scatters his mind outward. Then the monk should direct his mind to some satisfactory image. When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated. He then reflects: "The purpose for which I directed my my mind has been accomplished. So now I shall withdraw [directed attention from the image]." He withdraws, and no longer thinks upon or thinks about [the image]. He understands: "I am not thinking upon or thinking about [anything]. Inwardly mindful, I am content." This is directed meditation. And what is undirected meditation? Not directing his mind outward, a monk understands: "My mind is not directed outward." He understands: "Not focused on before or after; free; undirected." And he understands: "I abide observing body as body — ardent, fully aware, mindful — I am content." This is undirected meditation. And so, Ananda, I have taught directed meditation; and I have taught undirected meditation. Whatever is to be done by a teacher with compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty places. Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you. Note * These passages are repeated for the other three foundations of mindfulness: feelings as feelings; mind as mind; mental states as mental states. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-47-010- ao0.html 52308 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Dear friends, > > But Sawong: The Commentary to the Vinaya, the ³Samantapåsådikå² explains > about the degrees of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the > Buddha¹s passing away. .... Dear Nina The theme of (the first part of) this message is exactly the same as what Sarah and me and some others have been discussing a week ago in the thread with the title "What has changed in 2500 years". Maybe you have not read it, just coming home. Is this a coincidence ? I think you also do like continuity in the discussions in DSG? My entry was a critical analyses of that number of 5000 year. I think this number have not to be taken literally. My main final statement to Sarah about it was: we - Theravadins - have no reasons to be fatalistic about a inevitable decline of Buddha Sasana (if we do what Nyanaponika Mahathera proposes in his 'Preface' to his 'Abhidhamma Studies', cf end of #52113). Do you agree with that? Another question; in the answer of Sujin I read: "At this moment we are living in the third period of thousand years after the passing away of the Buddha Gotama. We should NOT THINK OF PERSONS, it is more important to think of the way leading to the realization of the four noble truths. If people do not follow the right way there will not even be an ariyan of the degree of the sotåpanna." Which persons is Sujin talking about? Metta Joop 52309 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:27pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I came across this intersting sutta on directed and undirected > meditation. Note that the Buddha motions towards the roots of trees > and empty places even for the 'undirected' 4 foundations of > mindfulness (Jon, I think we discussed this). The reasons for the > directed meditation is simply the mind is scattered and not in a > state for pursuing the 4 foundations of mindfulness, hence for it's > preperation. > > metta > > Matheesha quoted passage part: And so, Ananda, I have taught directed meditation; and I have taught undirected meditation. Whatever is to be done by a teacher with compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty places. Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you. Note * These passages are repeated for the other three foundations of mindfulness: feelings as feelings; mind as mind; mental states as http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-47-010- ao0.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Thanks for your post. I do not know directed and undirected. But what I understand is that one is through jhaana and another is dry. I like 'Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you'. [Especially for DSGs]. With Metta, Htoo Naing 52310 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:30pm Subject: Re: another ADL - audio files htootintnaing Dear Connie, Thanks for this message. Htoo --------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > hi, > just wanted to say there are some talks by Sayadaw Nandamalavivamsa on > "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" at www.dhammalecturevideo.org but you would > want to use a broadband connection to download them as the mp3's average > about 50MB and the compressed wma files (not all of which have been > uploaded to the site yet) about 8MB. (3 of the mp3's also seem to be > missing). These are not the same as Nina's ADL and I've just started to > listen to the first one so I can't say much more about them now. > peace, > connie > 52311 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:54pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - You wrote : > Math: >Note that the Buddha motions towards the roots of trees > and empty places even for the 'undirected' 4 foundations of > mindfulness (Jon, I think we discussed this). The reasons for the > directed meditation is simply the mind is scattered and not in a > state for pursuing the 4 foundations of mindfulness, hence for it's > preperation. > (snipped) What about the "directed" meditation? Do you have any comments? Regards, Tep ======= 52312 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Tep,Htoo and others, You asked me about directed meditation. 'And for one who is abiding contemplating body as body,* a bodily object arises, or bodily distress, or mental sluggishness, that scatters his mind outward.' M: this is an affect of long term meditation where the mind becomes tired of doing the same thing, or maybe some other bodily distraction. Hence he stops inward contemplation of the body and is scattered outwards, ie lost in thoughts/past/future. 'Then the monk should direct his mind to some satisfactory image. When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born.' M: image-nimitta. think of something which brings you happiness, I would say. One might think that use of the word nimitta suggests samatha/concentration meditation. but what is a satisfactory nimitta? samatha nimittas are in themselves pretty neutral, unless we think of ajhan brhams' 'beautiful breath' :) someone had suggested thinking of the buddha, as in buddhanussathi meditations where the image of the buddha is visualised which for someone with good faith would be appropriate. a monk who is this skilled in meditation would know not to focus on things which would give rise to hinderences. 'From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated. He then reflects: "The purpose for which I directed my my mind has been accomplished.' M: this order of changes in the mind is something to be experienced. contentment is the appeasement of desires/irritations/aversions/hinderances. Hence there is a natural basis for concentration to arise out of mindstate which arises after a happy mind. The development of happiness/piti is something we dont hear much about, but is useful as can be seen. note the intentional change of focus. Note this type of development is very different from the more focused samatha type meditations. Htoo, I think it is not helpful to strictly break it down into samatha and vipassana. Even vipassana has been mentioned under samadhi (samadhibhavana sutta) because there is an element of samadhi in this type meditation as well. Ultimately the 7th step in the noble eightfold path should give rise to the 8th step which is the jhanas. I think it is more useful to think about different techniques lying somewhere on the spectrum of samath-vipassana, some more towards samatha, others more vipassana. metta Matheesha 52313 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and all) - >N: The Buddha explained to Raahula the five khandhas**, all naamas and ruupas he should be aware of**. At the end of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta we read about all the good qualities he should develop. The Buddha did not tell him to develop only one thing like mindfulness of breathing or like asubha ... Tep: Apparently, you do not think think asubha sa~n~na is useful as the "first-aid" for stopping kamaraga (lust). The trouble is that Vangisa Bhikkhu did not have the time and mindfulness right then to develop "all the good qualities" and be aware of "the five khandhas, all naamas and ruupas". The kamaraga fire was burning him alive ! He needed an effective tool like (a well-developed) asubha sa~n~na to work in that very moment. There is no question that he (and all other bhikkhus taught by the Buddha) already knew how to contemplate the three characteristics of the five khandhas, citta-sankhara, etc. . However, when the strong kama-vitakka or kama-raga ("great lust") arose in him that very moment, he did not have time to think of any great long-term dhammas. Ven. Ananda was very intelligent to know that some dhammas were for long-term objectives, while other dhammas were for short-term purposes, and prescribed the right tool to get the job done. > [Ven. Ananda:] > > From distorted perception your mind is on fire. > Shun the theme of the beautiful accompanied by lust. > See mental fabrications as other, as stress, & not-self. > > Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. > > Develop the mind > -- well-centered & one -- > in the foul, > through the foul.... > ................................................. >N: Listening, and listening more helps us to have more understanding**. Understanding is the goal, not "doing something" to prevent lust and aversion. We have to be sincere and scrutinize ourselves: who is doing something? We know in theory that there is no self, but have we thoroughly penetrated this truth? Tep: Penetrating the truth is a long-term objective. To extinguish a great lust is a short-term objective. Please compare your advice with the Venerable Ananda's instruction to Vangisa Bhikkhu. Do you think the Ven. Ananda misled the young monk Vangisa by not telling him to develop understanding on rupa & nama with anatta sa~n~na and anicca sa~n~na? Why did Ananda Thera say, " Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. Develop the mind well-centered & one in the foul, through the foul"? A question for further discussion --------------------------------------------- Can you show us how you might apply your advice (marked by ** above) to extinguish a great lust in a young person? Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > (snipped) > > N: Being mindful of any reality without any selection. Not only lobha and dosa should be known, also seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. > Moreover, lust for sensepleasures is only eradicated by the anaagaami, and that because of the development of paññaa to that degree. There is no other way. > > Tep: That is working great when the kammaraga (or dosa) is not > > overhelming the mind. Otherwise, mindfulness just goes out the door ! > ------- > N: If one thinks in that way one causes obstructions to mindfulness and understanding. One has no confidence in paññaa that fulfills its own function. > If we think of a self who has to do it all, we may not believe that paññaa does its own task. > Listening, and listening more helps us to have more understanding. > Understanding is the goal, not "doing something" to prevent lust and > aversion. We have to be sincere and scrutinize ourselves: who is doing something? We know in theory that there is no self, but have we thoroughly penetrated this truth? > Your last point is worth discussing more. It touches on the way one sees sati in daily life and the way it operates. > (I am going out tomorrow) > Nina. > 52314 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation jonoabb Hi Mateesha Thanks for bringing up this interesting sutta. Some brief initial comments. matheesha wrote: >Hello everyone, > >I came across this intersting sutta on directed and undirected >meditation. > The Pali term here translated as 'meditation' is bhavana. Bhavana really means 'development' or 'becoming more', and as far as I know does not carry any necessary implication of meditation as we understand that word. >Note that the Buddha motions towards the roots of trees >and empty places even for the 'undirected' 4 foundations of >mindfulness (Jon, I think we discussed this). > The instruction regarding the roots of trees seems to be directed to Ananda personally. This is more apparent in the Bodhi translation (CDB, p.1640) I think. But in any event, it is not a comment directed to his followers at large, and it is not said to be a prerequisite for the development of the path. >The reasons for the >directed meditation is simply the mind is scattered and not in a >state for pursuing the 4 foundations of mindfulness, hence for it's >preperation. > > I would say that the 'directed' response is possibly for the monk who is developing samatha also. The other response described in the sutta, the undirected one, also brings development. It is worth noting that the nuns to whom Ananda spoke were "well established in the four foundations of mindfulness" with understanding that was "becoming ever greater and more excellent". Obviously already highly developed in terms of satipatthana. I may have some further comments when I've had a chance to study the notes to the Bodhi translation. Jon >---------------------- >SN XLVII.10 >Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta >Directed and Undirected Meditation (excerpt) >Translated from the Pali by Andrew Olendzki >PTS page: S v 154 >CDB ii 1638 > >--------------------------------- >Copyright © 2005 Andrew Olendzki. >Access to Insight edition © 2005 >For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, >reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, >however, that any such republication and redistribution be made >available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that >translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. > > >---------------------------------------------------------------- > >The venerable Ananda arose early one morning, and taking up his robe >and bowl approached a certain settlement of nuns, where he sat down >on a seat that had been prepared. A number of nuns approached the >venerable Ananda, and after greeting him, sat down to one side. So >seated, these nuns said this to the venerable Ananda: "There are >here, Ananda sir, a number of nuns who abide with minds well >established in the four foundations of mindfulness. Their >understanding is becoming ever greater and more excellent." > >"So it is, Sisters, so it is!" replied Ananda. "Indeed for anybody, >Sisters, whether monk or nun, who abides with a mind well >established in the four foundations of mindfulness — it is to be >expected that their understanding becomes ever greater and more >excellent." > >[Ananda later relates this exchange to the Buddha, who approves of >his response and then elaborates:] > >Here, Ananda, a monk abides contemplating body as body* — ardent, >fully aware, mindful — leading away the unhappiness that comes from >wanting the things of the world. And for one who is abiding >contemplating body as body,* a bodily object arises, or bodily >distress, or mental sluggishness, that scatters his mind outward. >Then the monk should direct his mind to some satisfactory image. >When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is >born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the >body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one >content becomes concentrated. He then reflects: "The purpose for >which I directed my my mind has been accomplished. So now I shall >withdraw [directed attention from the image]." He withdraws, and no >longer thinks upon or thinks about [the image]. He understands: "I >am not thinking upon or thinking about [anything]. Inwardly mindful, >I am content." This is directed meditation. > >And what is undirected meditation? Not directing his mind outward, a >monk understands: "My mind is not directed outward." He >understands: "Not focused on before or after; free; undirected." And >he understands: "I abide observing body as body — ardent, fully >aware, mindful — I am content." This is undirected meditation. > >And so, Ananda, I have taught directed meditation; and I have taught >undirected meditation. Whatever is to be done by a teacher with >compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out >of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty >places. Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who >is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you. > >Note > >* These passages are repeated for the other three foundations of >mindfulness: feelings as feelings; mind as mind; mental states as >mental states. > > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-47-010- >ao0.html > > 52315 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:07pm Subject: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... kenhowardau Hi Howard, No matter how prescriptive the language might be, I can't interpret teachings of anatta as telling me to "go out and do something." --------------- H: > He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful thoughts, for then those thoughts will disappear, and then the mind will settle down. It is not merely said descriptively that WHEN there is reflection, useful conditions arise, or that there IS reflecting and then useful conditions arise. It is said that a man SHOULD engage in such reflection in order for the useful conditions to arise. This is instruction. It is prescription. It is advice to engage in useful intentional action (kusala kamma). > -------------- The Vitakkasanthana Sutta begins, "Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher consciousness. What five?" (It then lists various things a monk should do.) So, strictly speaking, the Buddha is not telling anyone to go out and do those various things: he is saying they should be reflected upon. As you know, there are other suttas that (like this one) give instruction to monks and lay followers on how to spend their days. When we have understood the instructions correctly, 'reflecting upon the Dhamma' becomes part of our daily life. Therefore, even the instruction to spend our days reflecting from time to time on the Dhamma is not a prescription to go out and do something (to spend our days that way). It is a teaching to be understood here and now. Ken H 52316 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:11pm Subject: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... kenhowardau Hi Nina, Thank you for this extract from the 'commentaries to the Vitakkasanthana Sutta' and for giving your comments. It is a difficult sutta. (Aren't they all?) --------------- N: > Commentary: Someone who walks fast may think of what use this is and he will then walk more slowly. The Commentary uses a simile. When a thought occurs to the bhikkhu this is like walking fast. When he considers the occurring of such a thought it is like his walking more slowly. When he has investigated the occurring of such a thought he uses it as the subject of his meditation. Co: It is explained that the movement of the thoughts becomes calmer for the bhikkhu who realizes what the cause and condition is and then these thoughts can be abandoned. N: They are abandoned through vipassana. The abandonment of akusala is true calm. --------------- Yes, right understanding comes first. Difficult teachings about overcoming akusala and replacing it with kusala must be understood properly before they can be "acted upon." Otherwise, there will be the idea of a self that does the acting. Ken H 52317 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:32pm Subject: Re: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequis... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/11/05 9:08:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > No matter how prescriptive the language might be, I can't interpret > teachings of anatta as telling me to "go out and do something." > > --------------- > H: >He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful > thoughts, for then those thoughts will disappear, and then the mind > will settle down. It is not merely said descriptively that WHEN there > is reflection, useful conditions arise, or that there IS reflecting > and then useful conditions arise. It is said that a man SHOULD engage > in such reflection in order for the useful conditions to arise. This > is instruction. It is prescription. It is advice to > engage in useful intentional action (kusala kamma). > > -------------- > > The Vitakkasanthana Sutta begins, "Five things should be reflected on > from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher > consciousness. What five?" (It then lists various things > a monk should do.) > > So, strictly speaking, the Buddha is not telling anyone to go out > and do those various things: he is saying they should be reflected > upon. > > As you know, there are other suttas that (like this one) give > instruction to monks and lay followers on how to spend their days. > When we have understood the instructions correctly, 'reflecting upon > the Dhamma' becomes part of our daily life. > > Therefore, even the instruction to spend our days reflecting from > time to time on the Dhamma is not a prescription to go out and do > something (to spend our days that way). It is a teaching to be > understood here and now. > > Ken H > ======================== Okay, Ken, I give up! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52318 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,197 lbidd2 Nina: "BTW Larry, when considering conditions, we have to take into account that there are two methods: the method of the patthana and the method of the D.O.. They are different contexts." Hi Nina, Is there anywhere an exposition of which conditions condition the various cittas in 5-door and mind-door processes? If not, could you work it out? I'm particularly interested in decisive-support condition. For me, this sheds new light on how reason manifests. Does decisive-support condition condition any cittas other than javana? Larry 52319 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:54pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 307 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [a] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess(macchariya), Regret(kukkucca)] There are three akusala dhammas which can arise only with dosamúla-citta, citta rooted in aversion, namely: envy (isså), stinginess(macchariya) and regret (kukkucca). Aversion tends to arise often, both in sense-door processes and in mind-door processes, because we have accumulated so much aversion. Dosa-múla-citta is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. We may notice that we have aversion and unpleasant feeling, but we should also come to know other defilements which can arise with dosa-múla-citta, namely: envy, stinginess and regret. These akusala cetasikas can, one at a time, accompany dosa-múla-citta. This does not mean that dosa-múla-citta is always accompanied by one of these three akusala cetasikas. Sometimes dosa-múla-citta is accompanied by one of these three and sometimes it is not accompanied by any of them. I shall now deal with these three akusala cetasikas. ***** [Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52320 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I have a few of your messages kept aside addressed to me directly or indirectly. Apologies for the delays as usual. You wrote some kind comments in this thread for which I thank you. We all learn from each other! --- Tep Sastri wrote: S:> >When we read the suttas, I believe we must be careful and really > consider these present realities. There is a reference to this > somewhere near the beginning of the Patisambhidamagga. > Dhammas cannot become clear or patisambhida without careful > considering. It's no use remembering lists and numbers without such > understanding of dhammas. > > .... > Tep: I agree with you concerning the principle behind the dhamma > study, or any scientific study in general. The difficult thing to do is > to > intelligently decide when enough study is enough. More "research" > passing the point of marginal return is wasteful. .... S: I don't think of dhamma study as being like scientific study or research in general. Dhamma study has to be pariyatii -- it has to be with wise (wholesome) attention and understanding, otherwise it's quite useless and isn't 'dhamma study' at all, even though we may have read lots of suttas or Abhidhamma. It always has to relate to the reflection and understanding about present realities (dhammas), not just 'book' knowledge. When it's merely an academic study or language interest, it's OK, but it's not dhamma study as I see it. We can only know our own intentions and reasons for opening the book or discussing more details as we're doing now. I find it more helpful to be honest about my own wholesome and unwholesome cittas rather than to speculate about the others' when they read or write. One day we may say 'enough' and then the next day we may continue reading or writing to consider more, help others or for less noble reasons. I'm glad to hear your comments. Metta, Sarah p.s It's interesting that you might have recognised our friend Khun Foo in a picture from Thailand....Possible:). ======== 52322 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- tepsastri wrote: > Swee Boon to Phil (dsg # 51091): > > >Isn't it by means of conceit and craving that the Buddha-to-be > >perfected the paramis and achieved Buddhahood? > > >Isn't it because of conceit that the Buddha-to-be thought that he > >would achieve Buddhahood just like all previous Buddhas? > > >Isn't it because of craving that the Buddha-to-be left home in search > >of the Noble Ancient Path? > > > Dear Ken and Sarah, will you two be kind enough to answer the above > three questions for me, please? Don't you think that the Buddha-to-be > achieved Buddhahood without the initial impetus produced by craving > and conceit? .... S: I forget if Ken H or anyone else already answered. In any case, let me try: a)It was by the development of wisdom and the other paramis that the Buddha-to-be 'perfected the paramis and achieved Buddhahood'. It was in spite of conceit and craving which had to be fully understood and eventually eradicated. We could say that all so-called hindrances are really a support for the Path in that they all have to be known for what they are. b)It wasn't because of conceit that the Buddha-to-be thought that he would achieve Buddhahood. It was the great wisdom that was accumulated for aeons and the aspiration before Sumedha Buddha which was 'confirmed'. The aspiration and development of the paramis was out of compassion (and other noble qualities) in order to teach and help us the Middle Way. c)Again it was not out of craving that the Buddha-to-be left home and so on, but again out of wisdom and compassion in particular. No I don't think craving and conceit were the initial impetus unless you are referring to the craving which conditions birth in the first place. However, it is true that without really understanding fully these qualities when they arise, they can never be eradicated and there can be no attainment of arahantship or Buddhahood. Hope this helps explain my 'take'. Metta, Sarah ========== 52323 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-self Discernment and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I thought you wrote an excellent message with quotes under this heading (#51647). I think there was some further discussion. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > In the SN XXII.59 Anattalakkhana Sutta and also in other suttas > about "not self" (anatta), e.g. MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta, the > following teaching is seen again and again: > > "Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; > internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right > discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not > what I am.' > > "Any feeling whatsoever... > > "Any perception whatsoever... > > "Any fabrications whatsoever... > > "Any consciousness <...> > Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may let go > of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? ... S: The only way is by carefully considering, reflecting and appreciating the truth that what we take for people and things and self are merely these cittas, cetasikas and rupas. There is no self who can let go of any misunderstanding, but by coming to appreciate throught the development of awareness and understanding that what appears now is only a nama or a rupa, the misunderstandings will slowly disappear without anyone doing anything. And what are the namas and rupas which appear now? There is seeing consciousness and visible object which is seen, hearing....feeling, thinking and so on. By being aware of any dhamma which appears, misunderstandings about self, freewill and control will vanish naturally. I liked the sutta you quoted to Math as well (#51689) which referred to bhavana or the lack of guarding of the sense doors ‘whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down’. I just checked another translation which I’ll give too: (Itivuttaka, 110, BPS, John Ireland transl) “Whether walking or standing, Sitting or lying down Whoever thinks such thoughts That are evil and worldly – He is following a wrong path, Infatuated with delusive things. Such a bhikkhu cannot reach Enlightenment which is supreme. Whether walking or standing, Sitting or lying down, Whoever overcomes these thoughts- Such a bhikkhu is able to reach Enlightenment which is supreme.” ***** S: This refers to the guarding of the sense doors with samma ditthi, samma sankappa etc, i.e with wise attention and not with any idea of self. To requote some comments of Jon’s which you ‘completely agreed with’ below: Jon “,,,Sati and panna likewise may arise spontaneously, conditioned by prior reading/listening and reflection. This is how conditions operate. At such moments there is the development of the path, but there is no ‘doing’ (neither, of course, is the development of awareness a case of ‘doing nothing’). The ‘practice’ spoken of in the suttas is any moment of such development of the path.” All the suttas and other Tipitaka texts have to be read and considered in 'conformity' with each other, as I see it. Metta, Sarah ======= 52324 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Howard), I liked all your additional comments and quotes on this thread. No disagreements here:). --- Tep Sastri wrote: ... Tep:> Note [2]. "The deeds of an Arahant, a perfect Saint, are neither good > nor bad because he has gone beyond both good and evil. This does > not mean that he is passive. He is active but his activity is selfless > and > is directed to help others to tread the path he has trod himself. His > deeds, ordinarily accepted as good, lack creative power as regards > himself in producing Kammic effects. He is not however exempt from > the effects of his past actions. He accumulates no fresh kammic > activities. Whatever actions he does, as an Arahant, are > termed "inoperative" (kiriya), and are not regarded as Kamma. They > are ethically ineffective. Understanding things as they truly are, he > has > finally shattered the cosmic chain of cause and effect." > http://ohbliss.org/en/tipitaka/khuddaka/dhammapada_narada.html .... S: of course, again we can remember that in an ultimate sense, we are referring to cittas, not to any being:). Metta, Sarah ========== 52325 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 0:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I once said, "I like that name." Still don't know why?? S: "Doubt is real. Like is real. Anger is real....all the mental factors which make up sankhara khandha are real. However, 'self', 'tree', Swee Boon' and 'Sarah' are imagined. The thinking about them is anicca,dukkha and anatta, but 'self' and 'tree' are not, because they don't exist. C: ... how can trees not exist and anger do exist? S: When you touch a tree, what is experienced? When you look out of a window, what is seen? C: When I touch a tree thoughts are experienced (impulses as thoughts), and a lot depends on what the other senses are doing. But I think you are looking for are the labels: "rough hardness." S: On the other hand, when you're mad, what is experienced? C: The same goes for "mad" -- thoughts are experienced (impulses as thoughts), and a lot depends on what the other senses are doing. But I think you are looking for is the label: "anger." ..................... C: Do you believe that only emotions are real/exist? S: No. .... C: Do you believe that only what is in the mind is real/exist? S: No. Rupas are real too. The hardness which is experienced when we touch a tree is real. The visible object which is seen when we look out of the window or now at the computer is real. The sounds we can hear as we type are real. C: What makes hardness real and not tree? Is it because you consider tactile input real and not visual input? Wait; is your problem really with the label (e.g., "tree") and not the object itself? If so, then keep in mind that "hardness" is also a word or label used for communicating some point, or an idea we have on account of what is touched and remembered. .................................................... S: All 'existence' is a 'mixture' of namas (those 'mental' qualities which can experience objects and rupas (those 'physical' qualities which can never experience objects). C: I am not sure what you mean here, but does it relate to consciousness? Or are you trying to say that sensory input is the only reality? ..................................... p.s re your post #52258, attachments are not accepted here. Pls post a short extract only with your comments for further discussion on DO and arahants or else give us a link to a website where the article can be found. C: Thanks, the mail I got back included the pictures. Must be the Outlook function... 52326 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and "Free Will" sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& KKT), I agree with your comments about KKT’s co-operative and ‘peaceful dhamma discussion’ posts. I’m always glad to see them. Thx for encouraging him to continue the thread. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Tep: So you are saying that our Blessed One had the "Capacity to > Control" through his perfected psychic powers such that he could, if so > desired, "remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it" ? > But, > can I ask you two questions? > > 1. Did the Buddha control the nama & rupa, or what else ? > 2. How is such a control related to "will" and "free" ? .... S: Through the development of the highest jhanas and arahantship with patisambhidas and so on, there were conditions for such possibilities. Like when we read about Mogallana’s great powers and abilities to visit other realms and all sorts of things – it’s not by and person controlling or by and free-will, but by conditions on account of these attainments. Like if someone trains hard to become a concert pianist, they can perform any number of pieces ‘at will’. Really, the conditions are in place for whatever way the attention is directed for such or such a piece to be played. All conditioned dhammas, no matter how much ‘free will’ there appears to be. ... > > ........................................ > KKT : Second, I want to return to the first definition of Free-Will. > In the given example, when I choose A among the 4 choices A, B, C, D, > is this choice really comes << OUT OF THE BLUE >> or is it > << PRE-DETERMINED >> by other conditions? > I mean is this choice the result of some circumstances which lead me to > choose A? In this case, is this really free-will? .... S: neither ‘out of the blue’ nore ‘pre-determined’:). Conditioned is not the same as pre-determined. What arises now, for example awareness now, will affect what occurs next. We think it’s ‘me’ choosing A, but really there are conditions now for thinking about or determining on A. We may still end up following B:) ... > > Tep: Excellent question ! The intention(will) of "choosing A" is also > conditioned by some circumstances "upstream" along a chain of > events, I guess. However, that mental state ('state of ceto in action') > still > CAN be a free-will, given that it is "free from an external control or > restriction of any kind". Why? Because 'X paccaya A' does not mean > X 'controls' A : both X and A are conditioned dhammas. > > Sarah, please give us your thought on this one! KKT is asking me a > tough question and I need your help. {:->)) ... S: It was kind of you to include me. I’m not sure if my responses will have helped at all. It is very difficult to appreciate how the Buddha’s teachings are all about conditioned dhammas without a feeling of fatalism or free-will I know. All I can say is that, for me, when there is more and more interest and appreciation of dhammas as just dhammas, these questions fall away:-/ ... > > I enjoy your clever questions, Pham, and I hope other DSG members > will sooner or later become interested in providing their thoughts too. .... S: I agree. I was very interested to hear KKT’s response to my ‘research’ and reflections on the sutta he quoted which was a late response I know. Thanks for just giving me the number and quoting briefly from it, Tep. KKT, did it help at all? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49677 Also, I thought AndrewT’s quote from B.Dhammapala was good (#52194), didn’t you? Thanks for all your posts, Tep. It’s always good ‘talking’ to you. There will probably be more delays before I get round to having another ‘Tep day’. I have posts put aside now for a ‘Phil day’, “Howard day’, ‘Nina day’ and others:). Metta, Sarah ======= 52327 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 0:35am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Phil, You must be a Mahayanist. Good points, very logical, but from experience -- Have you ever wanted something you know is not good for you? According to the First tradition (that of the elders): Desire is the root cause of suffering (2 NT). Mind full of desire is a sicken state. Knowledge/wisdom (or the lack of ignorance) is only the prescription for the effects of Desire (4NT). MY point in short: As long as there is Ignorance without desire, there will be no suffering. As long as there is desire without ignorance, suffering can be eliminated when it arises. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Thursday, 10 November, 2005 05:01 Hi Charles > It is DESIRE that always gets in the way. Ignorance only gets in the way > sometimes. Interesting point. I might reverse it, though. There is ignorance with every akusala (unwholesome) citta. That much is certain. With many (the majority, I'd guess) of akusala cittas, there is lobha, unwholesome desire. However, on occasion, the desire can be a wholesome cetasika, chanda, which when wholesome is wholesome zeal for the path. I think because of ignorance, we don't know when the desire is wholesome chanda, and when it is lobha. So I would say ignorance is the central obstacle. No fast way around it, though! :) Phil 52328 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 0:45am Subject: RE: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... dacostacharles Hi all, I realize now that there needs to a new old tradition: The 1st (that of the elders) see desire is the problem The 2nd (Mahayanist) see ignorance as the problem The 3rd (vajrayanist) see the ignorance and the wrong types of desires as the problems The new (Abidharmist) see a self-view as the problem Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kenhowardau Sent: Saturday, 12 November, 2005 03:11 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... Hi Nina, Thank you for this extract from the 'commentaries to the Vitakkasanthana Sutta' and for giving your comments. It is a difficult sutta. (Aren't they all?) --------------- N: > Commentary: Someone who walks fast may think of what use this is and he will then walk more slowly. The Commentary uses a simile. When a thought occurs to the bhikkhu this is like walking fast. When he considers the occurring of such a thought it is like his walking more slowly. When he has investigated the occurring of such a thought he uses it as the subject of his meditation. Co: It is explained that the movement of the thoughts becomes calmer for the bhikkhu who realizes what the cause and condition is and then these thoughts can be abandoned. N: They are abandoned through vipassana. The abandonment of akusala is true calm. --------------- Yes, right understanding comes first. Difficult teachings about overcoming akusala and replacing it with kusala must be understood properly before they can be "acted upon." Otherwise, there will be the idea of a self that does the acting. Ken H 52329 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Jon, Thank you for the comments, J:> The Pali term here translated as 'meditation' is bhavana. Bhavana really > means 'development' or 'becoming more', and as far as I know does not > carry any necessary implication of meditation as we understand that word. M: When the buddha asks his monks to go to the root of trees to do 'bhavana' I think it refers to formal meditation. The purpose of formal meditation is as you mentioned, 'development' of the mind in ways not possible by any other means. J:> The instruction regarding the roots of trees seems to be directed to > Ananda personally. This is more apparent in the Bodhi translation (CDB, > p.1640) I think. But in any event, it is not a comment directed to his > followers at large, and it is not said to be a prerequisite for the > development of the path. M: I'm not sure if it were directed at Ven. Ananda only. Nevertheless you are right in that it is not for everyone. But that fact remains thousands of bikkhus did just that as intructed by the buddha, rather than than a handful who might have not. The suttas are full of references to it. It only makes sense when you consider intentional development of the mind. It obviously would have been very helpful in attaining nibbana. J:> It is worth noting that the nuns to whom Ananda spoke were "well > established in the four foundations of mindfulness" with understanding > that was "becoming ever greater and more excellent". Obviously already > highly developed in terms of satipatthana. > M: Indeed. Only then would one's mind fall away from it, get tired from it, would find aching of the body a distraction. Not for someone who doesnt do formal satipattana practice. I think we should move away from this idea that satipattana is something near impossible to achieve. Study and contemplation is not going to get someone there. Only formal prolonged meditation can do this, and it is possible. People have done it. It is not thinking. It is direct experiencing of the dhammas. To even understand that direct experiencing is possible, there has to be some formal practice. Otherwise it look like an impossible dream, and will remain so. The Buddha prescribes going to the roots of trees to deveop the four foundations of mindfulness in this sutta. Seclusion even for a temporary period of time as a lay person is essential for proper satipattana practice. Otherwise noting a single dhamma wont make dent in your avijja which is thicker than we think. Noting a single dhamma, we will never experience hethu-phala showing how the dhammas are linked together. Noting a single dhamma we will not notice arising and passing away to a degree which will move the mind towards nibbida - which is the basic level of panna for a lay person as directed by the Buddha (vyaggapajja sutta). metta Matheesha 52330 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation kenhowardau Hi Htoo, If I didn't know you better I would think you wanted "DSGs" to believe the Middle Way was obvious and easy to follow. --------------------------- H: > I like 'Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you'. [Especially for DSGs]. -------------------------- I doubt you would like, "Get down and engage in rituals. Any effort is Right Effort if that is what you want to call it. Engage in ordinary, feel-good, religious practices. The Buddha's instruction is basically no different from any other instruction." I doubt you would like that interpretation, but how is it different from the one you do like? Ken H 52331 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:33am Subject: RE: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... dacostacharles Hi Ken, Actually, you are wrong. The Buddhas' teachings are prescriptions for beings at all levels and plans of existence. This is why an animal can be reborn as a human and then a Buddhsavatta or arhat, and thus progress from a self to a non-self. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kenhowardau Sent: Saturday, 12 November, 2005 03:07 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... Hi Howard, No matter how prescriptive the language might be, I can't interpret teachings of anatta as telling me to "go out and do something." --------------- H: > He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful thoughts, for then those thoughts will disappear, and then the mind will settle down. It is not merely said descriptively that WHEN there is reflection, useful conditions arise, or that there IS reflecting and then useful conditions arise. It is said that a man SHOULD engage in such reflection in order for the useful conditions to arise. This is instruction. It is prescription. It is advice to engage in useful intentional action (kusala kamma). > -------------- The Vitakkasanthana Sutta begins, "Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher consciousness. What five?" (It then lists various things a monk should do.) So, strictly speaking, the Buddha is not telling anyone to go out and do those various things: he is saying they should be reflected upon. As you know, there are other suttas that (like this one) give instruction to monks and lay followers on how to spend their days. When we have understood the instructions correctly, 'reflecting upon the Dhamma' becomes part of our daily life. Therefore, even the instruction to spend our days reflecting from time to time on the Dhamma is not a prescription to go out and do something (to spend our days that way). It is a teaching to be understood here and now. Ken H 52332 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,197 nilovg Hi Larry, See my Conditions Ch 8. Natural decisive support condition isvery wide, including even the right food and the right climate that can condition someone to attain arahatship. There are so many conditions operating at the same time. Also one's accumulated tendencies. This condition concerns also vipaakacitta: akusala vipaaka through the bodysense can condition kusala vipaaka in this way: a painful therapy can lead to bodily wellbeing. The subject is too complex to work out now. Nina. op 12-11-2005 04:45 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Is there anywhere an exposition of which conditions condition the > various cittas in 5-door and mind-door processes? If not, could you work > it out? I'm particularly interested in decisive-support condition. For > me, this sheds new light on how reason manifests. Does decisive-support > condition condition any cittas other than javana? 52333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite ... nilovg Hi Ken, I quote more from the Co which I posted before, showing that whatever subject the bhikkhu develops it is to be connected with vipassana: Commentary: A ³different object²: the word nimitta is used, meaning cause. The Co. explains the field or area and the objects of unwholesome thoughts. The eight types of citta rooted in attachment, are the area of thinking with chandha (attachment). The two types of citta rooted in aversion are the area of thinking with aversion. The twelve types of akusala cittas are the area of thinking with ignorance. The cittas that are accompanied by doubt and restlessness are specifically the area of people who have thoughts of doubt and restlessness. Living beings or formations (sa.nkhaara, conditioned dhammas, here, things that are not alive) all of them, are the objects of thinking. When the bhikkhu does not direct his attention to the objects he likes and dislikes, such (unwholesome) thoughts about living beings and formations do not arise.> op 12-11-2005 03:11 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowa@...: > > Yes, right understanding comes first. Difficult teachings about > overcoming akusala and replacing it with kusala must be understood > properly before they can be "acted upon." Otherwise, there will be > the idea of a self that does the acting. ------ Howard: Okay, Ken, I give up! ;-) ----- N: All these discussions are not for the sake of winning a point, but we are earnestly studying the teachings, trying to understand the true meaning. Therefore, different opinions are valuable. Nina. 52334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma in Cambodia nilovg Dear Joop, No, I could not follow the thread "What has changed in 2500 years". This commentarial passage is useful for those who think that this or that venerable one must be an arahat. People just believe that and want to follow those they believe to be arahats. We can never tell from someone manners whether he is an arahat or not. We can only know when we are an arahat ourselves. The same for sotaapanna. Only a sotaapanna can know of someone else whether he is a sotaapanna. op 11-11-2005 22:30 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > J: My entry was a critical analyses of that number of 5000 year. I think > this number have not to be taken literally. N: We keep in mind the main principle, see above. J: My main final statement to Sarah about it was: we - Theravadins - > have no reasons to be fatalistic about a inevitable decline of Buddha > Sasana (if we do what Nyanaponika Mahathera proposes in his 'Preface' > to his 'Abhidhamma Studies', cf end of #52113). Do you agree with > that? ------ N: I do not have the p. no, but I know that you are looking towards the future, wishing for a development of Abh. in these modern times, as you explained before. I believe that the same old texts are as actual for this time as can be. They are not limited by ideas of situations, of concepts concerning the ancient people and times. They pertain to here and now and are always new, always fresh, always actual. You could chose any passage from the Dhammasangani (first book of Abhidhamma), and I shall do my best to show that it is for this time. When I read Ven. Nyanaponika, I was inspired to consider cetasikas more and work them out. He suggested that he hoped others would write more and I listened to him. Another Dhamma teacher, Anagarika (Sarah knows him) inspired me to write about rupas. -------- J: Another question; in the answer of Sujin I read: > "At this moment we are living in the third period of thousand years > after the passing away of the Buddha Gotama. We should NOT THINK OF > PERSONS, it is more important to think of the way leading to the > realization of the four noble truths. If people do not follow the > right way there will > not even be an ariyan of the degree of the sotåpanna." > Which persons is Sujin talking about? -------- N: Persons do not exist in the ultimate sense. What we take for a person are citta, cetasika and rupa. We should not guess: this person is an ariyan, that is pointless. But if we follow the right way understanding can develop and the four noble Truths can be realized. That is the only thing that matters. We shall understand that there is no being, no person, no self at all. Nina. 52335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequis... nilovg Hi Ken and Howard, there have been many discussions about the Buddha's teachings being descriptive or prescriptive. The Buddha understood the diffirent accumulations of beings that make them think and act in particular ways. Whatever we do or think is all motiovated by citta, a conditioned dhamma. Nobody in the world, not even a Buddha, can tell someone else: let citta be thus, let it be thus. When the Buddha said: develop understanding, or one should do this or that, this is not a command. His words can be a condition for the listener to develop understanding and other kinds of kusala. Therefore I think that discussions about description or prescription are redundant. op 12-11-2005 03:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >> Ken: No matter how prescriptive the language might be, I can't interpret >> teachings of anatta as telling me to "go out and do something." >> >> --------------- Howard: >He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful >> thoughts.... Ken: When we have understood the instructions correctly, 'reflecting upon >> the Dhamma' becomes part of our daily life. .... It is a teaching to be >> understood here and now. ------- N: Satipatthana is specifically the Buddha's teaching and this is implied in all suttas, also in The Removal of Unwholesome Thoughts. This means: understanding, understanding. Nina. 52336 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Htoo) - In a message dated 11/12/05 7:49:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Htoo, > > If I didn't know you better I would think you wanted "DSGs" to > believe the Middle Way was obvious and easy to follow. > > --------------------------- > H: >I like 'Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one > who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you'. [Especially > for DSGs]. > -------------------------- > > I doubt you would like, "Get down and engage in rituals. Any effort > is Right Effort if that is what you want to call it. Engage in > ordinary, feel-good, religious practices. The Buddha's instruction is > basically no different from any other instruction." > > I doubt you would like that interpretation, but how is it different > from the one you do like? > > Ken H > > ======================== In MN 1, the Buddha taught: "Cunda, I have taught the method of purifying, the method of arousing thoughts for it, the method of finding an alternative, the method of rising up, and the method of extinguishing. I have done, what should be done out of compassion, by a Teacher to his disciples, Cunda, there are roots of trees, meditate do not be negligent and be remorseful later. This is our advice to you." From AN 8, there is "Bhikkhu, I have taught you how, much learning is done, much teaching is done, much reciting is done, much thinking is done and the living according to the Teaching. Bhikkhu, I have done what a Teacher has to do to his disciples out of compassion. There are roots of trees and empty houses. Develop concentration do not be negligent and later regret. This is our advice." Ken, were the Buddha here, would you accuse him as well for teaching "engaging in rituals"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52367 From: Siddharth Kamble Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation drkamble_1963 Thank you for mail. I am very poor in Dhamma. It will take time to interact on the subject. siddhu nagpur 52368 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 11/12/05 4:48:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Do you have any comments ? > =================== The only comment I'll make beyond the few I've already made is with regard to a part of MN 8 that I find particularly interesting and useful. This is seeing traits and actions in others that are akusala and then avoiding them in oneself. (And the obverse of this, emulating the good traits and actions of others, though that isn't mentioned here.) At times, it is easier to "see" things in others than in oneself, and then that seeing enables one to more clearly observe phenomena in oneself and to then act appropriately. One interpretation of satipatthana "externally" is exactly the observing of (the signs of) phenomena in others, and this suggests the usefulness in that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52369 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:44pm Subject: Re: Answer to Tep's Last Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (Htoo and others) - Please compare the texts of the same sutta on "living according to the Teachings" as posted by you(#52355) and by me (#52356) as shown below. They look different in the second half. What happened? # 52355 (Howard) : "Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful things, in a series of questions and answers. He wisely thinks about the Teaching. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to the Teaching." # 52356 (Tep) : AN 008.03 "Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful things, in a series of questions and answers. He does not spend the time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops internal appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to the Teaching. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/008-anagatabhayavaggo-e.htm It seems to me that living according to the Teaching means not neglecting seclusions and develop internal appeasement -- these two are the big difference. Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > The following is the explanation in the sutta itself: > ________________________________ > Venerable sir, it is said living according to the Teaching. How does a > bhikkhu live according to the Teaching? > Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in prose (snipped). > __________________________ > > So, in *this* sutta, 'living according to the teaching" is more > restrictive than I guessed. It amounts to wisely thinking about the teaching! (That will be pleasing to many on DSG!!) > Of course, my point in quoting from the sutta was to emphasize the > last 3 sentences of the foregoing, which advises formal sitting meditation for the cultivation of concentration. > 52370 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answer to Tep's Last Questions upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 11/12/05 6:47:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > Hi, Howard (Htoo and others) - > > Please compare the texts of the same sutta on "living according to the > Teachings" as posted by you(#52355) and by me (#52356) as shown > below. They look different in the second half. What happened? > > > # 52355 (Howard) : > > > "Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in > prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four > lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful > things, in a series of questions and answers. He wisely thinks about the > Teaching. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to the > Teaching." > > # 52356 (Tep) : > > AN 008.03 > > "Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in > prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four > lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful > things, in a series of questions and answers. He does not spend the > time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops internal > appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to > the Teaching. > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/008-anagatabhayavaggo-e.htm > > > It seems to me that living according to the Teaching means not > neglecting seclusions and develop internal appeasement -- these two > are the big difference. > > > Regards, > > > > Tep > ======================= What I quoted from was 008.04, and I missed 008.03,and unfortunate oversight. It looks like both are given as constituting "living according to the teaching": wise consideration and samatha bhavana. Perhaps the "wisely thinking" amounts to vipassana bhavana. In some places it is said that vipassana bhavana is needed for cognitive liberation and samatha bhavana for affective liberation, and that both, separately or in-tandem, are required for complete liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52371 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Glad to see you back with more ideas (and speculations). >Jon: >Well thanks Tep, I'm glad you found it useful (although I didn't >think I was saying anything that had not been said many times >before ;-)). You might not have noticed the India-Phenomenon effect yet. :-)) You wrote : "But until the latent tendency (anusaya) for a particular form of akusala has been eradicated (by path consciousness of one level or another), there is always the possibility of the arising of another citta similar to the one that has fallen away." Let me name kusala citta "A", and akusala citta "B". So, so far we have seen the sequence A,B. Are you saying that the next citta might be B again or A may come up, and that both events have an equal 50% chance (probability)? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > The aksuala citta ceases for good, but then this is so for each and > every citta. That is what the momentary nature of dhammas is all about, > as I understand it. But until the latent tendency (anusaya) for a > particular form of akusala has been eradicated (by path consciousness of > one level or another), there is always the possibility of the arising of > another citta similar to the one that has fallen away. > > Does this make sense? > > Jon > 52372 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:20pm Subject: Vism.XIV,198 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 198. (iv)-(v) The classification into 'internal' and 'external' should be understood according to the internal in the sense of one's own. (vi)-(vii) The classification into 'gross' and 'subtle' should be understood (a) according to kind, (b) individual essence, (c) person, and (d) the mundane and supramundane, as stated in the Vibha"nga in the way beginning 'Unprofitable feeling is gross, profitable and indeterminate feeling is subtle, [profitable and unprofitable feeling is gross, indeterminate feeling is subtle]' (Vbh. 3), and so on. ********************* 198. ajjhattabahiddhaabhedo niyakajjhattavasena veditabbo. o.laarikasukhumabhedo ``akusalaa vedanaa o.laarikaa, kusalaabyaakataa vedanaa sukhumaa´´tiaadinaa (vibha0 11) nayena vibha"nge vuttena jaatisabhaavapuggalalokiyalokuttaravasena veditabbo 52373 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:30pm Subject: tech. question lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I've started to include the pali in the Vism. thread so Htoo can follow along more easily but there is going to be a problem when we get to the section on dependent arising. In that file Jim didn't convert to ~Nanamoli's numbering so I can't figure out where anything is. I thought he had some easy technical solution to this problem. Do you think someone could convert that file to the numbering system we are using? Ideally a mix of Roman numerals for chapters and regular numbers for paragraphs would be the best, but we don't have to do that if it is too difficult. Thanks. Larry 52374 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Answer to Tep's Last Questions buddhistmedi... Hi Howard - Look, Howard, what you have discovered from comparing AN 8.003 with AN 8.004 is useful! >Howard: >It looks like both are given as constituting "living according to the > teaching": wise consideration and samatha bhavana. Perhaps the > "wisely thinking" amounts to vipassana bhavana ... Tep: Yes, it seems there are two tracks of meditation, according to the two suttas. 1) yonisomanasikara of the dhamma (or vipassana bhavana); 2) seclusions and developing internal appeasement (samatha kammatthana). This observation should make quite a few people happy. >Howard: >In some places it is said that vipassana bhavana is needed > for cognitive liberation and samatha bhavana for affective > liberation, and that both, separately or in-tandem, are >required for complete liberation. Tep: I have not seen cognitive and complete liberations. Are they the same, respectively, to ceto-vimutti and panna-vimutti? What is required in 'complete liberation' that makes the liberation(vimutti) complete? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 11/12/05 6:47:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > > > Hi, Howard (Htoo and others) - > > > > Please compare the texts of the same sutta on "living according to the > > Teachings" as posted by you(#52355) and by me (#52356) as shown > > below. They look different in the second half. What happened? > > > > > > # 52355 (Howard) : > > > > > > "Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in > > prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four > > lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful > > things, in a series of questions and answers. He wisely thinks about the > > Teaching. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to the > > Teaching." > > > > # 52356 (Tep) : > > > > AN 008.03 > > > > "Here, bhikkhu, the bhikkhu learns the Teaching in the discourses, in > > prose and verse, in expositions giving questions and answers, in four > > lines, in solemn utterances, thus said sayings, birth stories, in wonderful > > things, in a series of questions and answers. He does not spend the > > time learning them, does not neglect seclusions, develops internal > > appeasement. Bhikkhu, to this is said the bhikkhu lives according to > > the Teaching. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > > Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/008-anagatabhayavaggo- e.htm > > > > > > It seems to me that living according to the Teaching means not > > neglecting seclusions and develop internal appeasement -- these two > > are the big difference. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Tep > > > ======================= > What I quoted from was 008.04, and I missed 008.03,and unfortunate > oversight. It looks like both are given as constituting "living according to the > teaching": wise consideration and samatha bhavana. Perhaps the "wisely > thinking" amounts to vipassana bhavana. In some places it is said that vipassana > bhavana is needed for cognitive liberation and samatha bhavana for affective > liberation, and that both, separately or in-tandem, are required for complete > liberation. > > With metta, > Howard > 52375 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answer to Tep's Last Questions upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 11/12/05 7:36:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > Hi Howard - > > Look, Howard, what you have discovered from comparing AN 8.003 > with AN 8.004 is useful! > > >Howard: > >It looks like both are given as constituting "living according to the > >teaching": wise consideration and samatha bhavana. Perhaps the > >"wisely thinking" amounts to vipassana bhavana ... > > Tep: Yes, it seems there are two tracks of meditation, according to the > two suttas. > 1) yonisomanasikara of the dhamma (or vipassana bhavana); > 2) seclusions and developing internal appeasement (samatha > kammatthana). > This observation should make quite a few people happy. > > >Howard: > >In some places it is said that vipassana bhavana is needed > >for cognitive liberation and samatha bhavana for affective > >liberation, and that both, separately or in-tandem, are > >required for complete liberation. > > Tep: I have not seen cognitive and complete liberations. Are they the > same, respectively, to ceto-vimutti and panna-vimutti? What is required > in 'complete liberation' that makes the liberation(vimutti) complete? > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > ======================= By "cognitive liberation" I meant uprooting of ignorance (to some degree), by "affective liberation" I meant uprooting the inclination to crave and cling (to some degree), and by "complete liberation," I meant both of these - the uprooting of both cognitive and affective defilements, which would be far better called 'balanced liberation'. As I think about it, however, in the special case that cognitive liberation is *full*, with *all* ignorance uprooted, then full affective liberation would have to occur as well, and so, in that case, complete liberation and balanced liberation would coincide. When cognitive liberation is only partial, though, as in a stream winner, craving and clinging might well still be very strong, though ceratinly weakened. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52376 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:40pm Subject: Back to Partial Hibernation upasaka_howard Hi, all - Not counting this present post, I sent *eight* posts to DSG today!!! Even though I did "get my meditating in" today, eight posts is just much to much. So, I shall be cutting back considerably. I don't want to "fit in" meditating - I want it, and ongoing mindfulness, to not be at the periphery of things but at the center. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tech. question nilovg Hi Larry, With Connie's help I have them all in my files. Also the Pali of the Tiika. There is a problem. I used to include the Pali but found that the posts were too long for the readers. Then I asked whether people liked the Pali or not. No answer, so I discontinued the Pali. But I use it all along for myself. Another solution: I post the Pali to you and you post it only with your text. Numbering is no problem. I do not have any numbering for the Tiika but I manage. Nina. op 13-11-2005 01:30 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Hi Sarah, > > I've started to include the pali in the Vism. thread so Htoo can follow > along more easily but there is going to be a problem when we get to the > section on dependent arising. In that file Jim didn't convert to > ~Nanamoli's numbering so I can't figure out where anything is. I thought > he had some easy technical solution to this problem. Do you think > someone could convert that file to the numbering system we are using? > Ideally a mix of Roman numerals for chapters and regular numbers for > paragraphs would be the best, but we don't have to do that if it is too > difficult. Thanks. > > Larry > 52378 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tech. question lbidd2 Nina: "Another solution: I post the Pali to you and you post it only with your text." Hi Nina, This might work if I can't figure out Jim's file. I won't need it until we get to XVII. XIV is already numbered. Larry 52379 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains / One More Loose End ! jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > > >>Jon : >>Thanks for including me in your post. >> >> > >Tep: I just thought that this time we might be able to tie a few loose ends >that we had in the past. > > It seems that loose ends are difficult to tie up in our exchanges; one loose end simply leads to another!! ... >>Jon: >>You would like to encourage Phil to give up on the reading of suttas and the thinking that is conditined by that, which is getting him nowhere, >>and take up meditation, which will bring pretty well immediate results. >> >> > >Tep: Nope, I did not encourage hime to stop reading/studying the >suttas. My purpose was given above in the message # 51969. > > Apologies for any misreading of your post. Let's consider this loose end tied ;-)) Jon 52380 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tech. question + SURVEY+Discussions in Bangkok in Feb sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Htoo, Connie (& Nina), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I've started to include the pali in the Vism. thread so Htoo can follow > along more easily but there is going to be a problem when we get to the > section on dependent arising. In that file Jim didn't convert to > ~Nanamoli's numbering so I can't figure out where anything is. I thought > he had some easy technical solution to this problem. .... S: Like Htoo, I appreciate it when the Pali is included below the short extracts you give (so that no one needs to take notice of them). Jon used to follow along behind you doing this, but he got further and futher behind, so thx for your work with it. Jim only converted the Pali to Nanamoli's numbering for ch 14. There was no easy technical solution, it took him a long time. ..... >Do you think > someone could convert that file to the numbering system we are using? > Ideally a mix of Roman numerals for chapters and regular numbers for > paragraphs would be the best, but we don't have to do that if it is too > difficult. Thanks. ... S: I agree it would be useful like this and put in the files again. I find it helpful to quickly refer to. (actually it would be nice for the whole of the Vism as so many of us use the Nanamoli transl). I remember Jim told me there is a Pali version of Vism with the same numbering, but then it wouldn't be on line anyway. Perhaps you or Connie could put the Pali for the D.O. chapter in the files as Jim did anyway and one rainy day, someone might help add the numbering. Thx to Htoo for his request. Metta, Sarah p.s While I'm mentioning techie and 'business' matters- 1 SURVEY OF PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS A.Sujin's book, translated by Nina (often quoted here) has now been published with a limited number of free copies available. It's quite a thick hard cover text (excellent imho!). If any regualar (or semi-regular) contributors here like yourselves would like a copy, pls send your full postal address to Sukin OFF-LIST (or to me to f/w to him). We are taking care of postage costs and Sukin is kindly doing the distribution work, so there are no expenses involved. .... p.s 2 DISCUSSIONS IN BANGKOK IN FEBRUARY A few people have asked us about dates in Feb for discussions in Bangkok when Nina, Jon & I will also be there. The provisional dates for discussions with K.Sujin during this time are: a)-Sat 4th Feb p.m, Mon 6th Feb a.m,Tuesday 7th Feb p.m & Wednesday 8th Feb a.m ****** b)-Wed 15th Feb a.m, Thurs 16th Feb p.m, Fri 17th Feb a.m, Sat 18th Feb p.m (regular session) ****** A.Sujin asked me to encourage anyone to come to Bkk at this (or other times) as she doesn't intend to travel outside Asia anymore. Pls contact me, Sukin or Betty off-list for any other details. Metta, Sarah ====== 52381 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:22am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 308 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [b] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] As regards envy or jealousy, this can arise when someone else receives a pleasant object. At such a moment we may wonder why he receives a pleasant object and why we don’t. Envy is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling, because it can only arise with dosa-múla-citta, with the citta which dislikes the object which is experienced. We dislike unpleasant feeling, but merely disliking it does not help us to have kusala citta instead of akusala citta. We should know the different types of defilements which can arise with akusala citta. It is useful to study their characteristics, functions, manifestations and proximate causes. When we see how ugly defilements are and when we understand their danger, we are reminded to develop satipaììhåna which is the only way to eradicate them. There is no other way. The Atthasåliní (II, Book I, Part IX, Chapter II, 257) gives the following definition of envy: * "… It has the characteristic of envying, of not enduring the prosperity of others, the function of taking no delight in such prosperity, the manifestation of turning one’s face from such prosperity, the proximate cause being such prosperity; and it should be regarded as a fetter." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 172) gives a similar definition(1). *** 1) Compare also Dhammasangaùi, §1121, and Vibhaòga §893. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52382 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:43am Subject: Modern Theravada (Was: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joop, >... > I believe that the same old texts are as actual for this time as > can be.They are not limited by ideas of situations, of > concepts concerning the ancient people and times. > They pertain to here and now and are always new, > always fresh, always actual. > You could chose any passage from the Dhammasangani (first book of > Abhidhamma), and I shall do my best to show that it is for this time. > ... > Nina. > Dear Nina What you asked is not easy, in the first place I don't have a copy of the Dhammasangana at home now. In the second place, I have been reading it several times in our university library and I don't have not so much problems with it. In fact I like it's clear concise style and it's openess: as far as I remember the Dhammasangani does not say: there are 89/121 cittas, there are 52 cetasikas, there are 28 rupas: it gives room to additions to the lists. My problems are more in the direction of the "commentaries". In general: I agree with what I quoted of you above, when it's permitted to translate "the old texts" in "the ideas hidden in the old texts" Another remark before: I have proposed several times that at DSG there should be a clear distinction between - discussions WITHIN the frame of reference of Buddhaghosa and Sujin (although these two are not the same, I think they have many in common) - discussions ABOUT that frame of reference This message of me is in the 'about-category' and I propose you do the same if you comment on it, otherwise it can not be a real discussion but only two monologues. The third remark before is that I hope you will not react with something like "it's wasting time to have such abstract reflections about the Path, better spending it with your own path" I think we should sometimes take some distance from Abhidhamma in daily life and think about Abhidhamma in the future, for the next generation. So in stead of what you ask, I have some other proposals: It's not necessary to take many texts of the Tipitaka as literal; it's even better to use their metaphorical power. For example: - the "31 realms of existence" do not exist as such (except # 2 and # 5; they are projections of the human mind. The same about "the supernatural powers". This are myths and myths are very (devotional) important; we should even create new myths and add them to the already existing ones. - the prophecy (of Buddhaghosa, not of the Buddha) that Buddha Sasana declines in 5000 years is a general warning that it will not survive time automatically (it is like everything anicca), but it's not a reason for any kind of fatalism. - the cycle of the dependent origination can also (and perhaps even better) be understood as occurring in one lifetime, as Buddhadasa Bhikkhu has proposed. - we should not take literal that there are millions of vithis in one second; better say "hundreds in a second", that's neuroscientific more realistic. - for some cultural reasons more and more people (special westerners) nowadays have a bigger and bigger need to do "formal meditation" or only exercises based on it; in stead of saying that this is not a good path, we should say to them: that's a very good start but it's not enough, you should do it with dhammastudy, you should pay attention to all aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path. - we should be creative in new forms of homelesnes, new forms of renunciations, in stead of (only) monastic life. Metta Joop 52383 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 306 Aversion-dosa (o) philofillet Hi Nina (and all) When you have a couple of minutes, could you give me feedback on the following? Thanks in advance. (Of course, comments from others welcome as well.) > i Is the suppression of unpleasant feeling always done with > kusala citta? Is "supression" technically specific? I mean, I know I replace unpleasant object with pleasant ones for the sake of getting rid of dosa, and that is not kusala. For example, when I wake during the night and get "the fear" I often reach for a Dhamma book. That is akusala. Is that "supression", or something else? > > ii What are the proximate causes for dosa? I guess unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara) to an unpleasant object is one. And the unpleasant object itself? > iii When there are unpleasant "worldly conditions?Ewe are > likely to have dosa. How can right understanding of kamma > and vipåka help us to have kusala citta instead of dosa? Intellectually I often think that the unpleasant worldly conditions are vipaka, so have a certain slight detachment from them, but I wouldn't say that is kusala. There is so much lobha involved in wanting out of dosa. But understanding at a deeper level would condition yoniso manasikara and there would be kusala instead of dosa? > iv Why is there no dosa in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the > arúpa-brahma planes? Because people in those planes don't have to commute and don't have obnoxious customers or noisy neighbours. Seriously, I don't know. > > v Why can dosa not be eradicated without developing right > understanding of nåma and rúpa? Why can it not be > eradicated by just developing loving kindness? Because then it will be "my loving kindness" - anatta cannot be directly understood until we know nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Not as easy as it sounds. I look forward to hearing more and more about this. > vi When we suffer from sickness and when we are about to die > what is the most beneficial thing that can be done in order > not to be overcome by dosa? What should be done if dosa > arises in such circumstances? Wow. I have thought that dosa would be inevitable in that situation, but we can understand the dosa as conditioned dhamma, and have some detachment from it. Satisampajanna can arise, know the akusala with right understanding, thereby giving rise to kusala. But "what should be done" sounds so intentional - we cannot say "there should be satisampajanna" - as though there were a ritual to be done, in the way that I have read that some people have someone by their bedside, reading to them their good deeds, or something like that. I think turning to such rituals is natural, but a person of true understanding might do without. I don't know. Phil 52384 From: "matt roke" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:13am Subject: [dsg] "Beware of content": the story makes us suffer? mattroke Dear Anthony, >Antony: I always think, "beware of content". With emotions, it's >really like you need the sign, "beware of content", because it's the >story and believing the thoughts about it that makes us suffer so much." When wisdom does not know the characteristics of the realities that arise and fall away and create stories (content) then there are only stories (content), which are accompanied by attachment, aversion and ignorance. . . and the ignorance can manifest itself as doubt and confusion. When the characteristics of nama and rupa are known by wisdom (Satipatthana) then there are still stories (content) but there is the understanding that they are not real and that they only come into being because of the realities that are arising and falling away and do not stay. The advice given by Michelle McDonald is yet another story (more content) that can add to the confusion. The answer is not in the stories (content) but in understanding the dhammas that create them. Donating $50 to the Buddhist center and telling your problems to a tree won’t help unless there is understanding of what realities are arising and falling away to create such a concept. MattR 52385 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:28am Subject: Rupa without (Was: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? sukinderpal Dear Joop and all, Joop: If you accept, I want to discuss one aspect of it; that's why I give this thread an other name. About rupa and speculation. You talked about philosophical speculation, and if understand you well you meant that we have a tendency to do that but that we should not do that. Sukin: Could we say that `thinking' is different from `direct experience'? And could we also say that depending on our background conditioning, we will *think about* dhamma as per our capacity and inclinations? There will be a mixture of belief and speculation and there will also be some `right thinking' from time to time. However, no control over what is going to be conditioned to arise. But yes, it seems to me that the more one understands the Dhamma, the more confidence grows towards the Teachings, therefore we will trust and rely more and more on what the Buddha says on any particular matter than on our own `speculation' i.e. if we can identify it in the first place. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: Then I say: OK, but I will do without any speculation, in fact "philosophical" in "philosophical speculation" is not something restricting. I prefer a Buddhisme in the future without any speculation, any magic: only what reaches me through my six senses, exists to my without speculation. Sukin: I understand, but if any good is going to happen, then this will be only if panna leads the way. To most modern people especially with scientific background, this idea that what is experienced directly will appeal as against so-called speculation about rebirth and the existence of other realms. However, what is behind such thinking may in fact be a kind of annihilationist view and very much living in the conceptual world without any understanding about ultimate realities. Based on our ideas about this `world' and any other world, and placing so much value on the existence of people, animals and things, and on how we see `conventional' beings born and die, it becomes hard to accept rebirth and devas and such without a need for a good degree of blind faith and/or speculation. Whereas on the other hand, when there is an increased understanding about paramattha dhammas, then ideas about rebirth and existence of other realms start to have a different meaning. When we observe what comes through the five senses and any mental reaction towards these, we can see how similar we are to all animals, even a fish. Whereas, were we to compare the two from the standpoint of scientific findings or behaviorism, we can't help but to particularly place them along an evolutionary scale, where dolphins and chimpanzee would be much closer to human beings. Also as our understanding grows about the different jatis of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya and as classified in terms of realms, kamavacara, rupavacara, arupavacara and lokuttara, then it becomes easier to accept the possibility of realms beyond our limited perception. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: You say: some rupas "can be experienced only by the Buddha and/or Arahats" That may be so, but the Buddha and arahats were human beings too? Sukin: Of course the Buddha was human, so anything he taught it is natural that you will look at this as being from the limitations of being one. But do we have to think this way? Can you not accept the possibility that the Buddha's wisdom was unhindered and unlimited by any idea of ours about `humans'? The difference between being "fully enlightened", and all the information gathered by us uninstructed worldlings through no matter how many thousands of years is like earth and sky. But more related to this below. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: You talk about "devas": is the idea that "devas" exist not speculation? To me it is; to be honest: I think devas don't exist. Sukin: I understand and I don't want to say you are wrong. We all have our limitations and ways of ultimately coming to appreciate the Teachings. I have stated, my perspective above and more below, which is in fact the struggle of one putthujana, and I respect your own way of dealing with the matter. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: I try to read about it, but could not find which of the 28 rupas are so subtle that they can not be perceived by worldling-humanbeings. Or are there rupas that are perceived at different ways by worldlings and by arahats? Sukin: Nina in one of her posts says that she like to give daily life examples to illustrate her points, so allow me to use the example of an incident which happened just this Friday. At 4 A.M. my wife woke me up about hearing the water pump running non-stop and that there was sound of water outside the house. So I went down to check, but it was in fact from another house, and so I went towards the back of my house to another tap and saw that it was partially open. When I came back to my room and laid back in bed, while my wife started bathing, I suddenly started having symptoms of severe allergy, itchiness, numbness and swelling. I quickly opened the bathroom door and told my wife that I must rush to the hospital, and when she saw me she was shocked to see that my whole body and eyes was red. I went downstairs and tried to open the gate and already was feeling blackout. My wife meanwhile came down to drive me to the hospital and she does not quite know the way. So I tried to direct her, but increasingly my vision was fading, and according to my wife, the speech was very slow. But in the end we did reach there. There I was immediately given oxygen and a shot of steroids, (Bp went down to 80/50) and had to stay there until the next day. Since this is the first time such a thing has ever happened to me, it was interesting to observe the thoughts running through my head, most of which was rooted in fear. :-) And even though as my vision was changing to being able to see only street and car lights, and I thought for a moment that this was still just visible object, such thought was quickly pushed aside to give way to thoughts about `growing blind' and hope on the `conventional-scientific' explanation. At such moments, Dhamma gave way to the method of scientific medicine. I started trying to explain the experience in terms of what might be happening in `this body' and how a doctor might cure me of this. :-) Though as I started getting better later on, thinking about dhamma resumed. My point for relating this incident is as follows. To explain my condition, the scientist will rely on past knowledge gathered on similar cases. This is natural and is fine. However this is also how most of us evaluate our experience, i.e. based on past knowledge about conventional realities. In other words our understanding of the conventional world is built upon concepts upon concepts ad infinitum. And it is natural that when panna is absent, the mind quickly looks to past knowledge to explain an experience, and it seems to me that we do attach so much to being able to explain something to ourselves. As you ask, "If not: is it correct to speak I have done some study about the question which of the (28) rupa can be perceived by animals. Less than 28, I think, by which exactly? And how can we know that without speculation: by biological research?". It seems that much value is placed on data gathered through observation of conventional reality and research based on that. But this is not the way of `insight' of course. Of the 28 rupas, as I said, only 7 will be experienced by humans, devas and animals through the sense doors. The rest can only be experienced through the mind door by `insight', so the question of how many rupas an animal will experience, the answer is 7. The human being, say the arahat, through insight can experience some of those other rupas, while the putthujana will not even know the 7 sense door rupas as it is, but only conceptually. You may be thinking for example, that we experience the water element though the senses, but no we don't. This is one of the `subtle rupas' which can be experienced only through insight. When a tangible object is experienced, only hardness/softness, heat/cold or motion/pressure will ever be known. But the scientist thinks he knows the water element as it is, and so any experience and consequent conclusion made will be only based on his limited (though perhaps useful in the conventional sense) theory. He will make a statement about anything else, but it won't be one that is about an ultimate reality. In fact he does not make a statement about any of the other rupas including the 7 sense door ones, except in the form of some conventional explanation, atoms, quarks, light, electric impulse and so on. And so he would not be ever talking about ultimate realities. On the other hand, is my belief on the existence of the 28 rupas based on speculation? I think it can and does, depending on what the thinking is conditioned by. If it is conditioned by a moment of relying on scientific findings, then `doubt' can arise. But as you may now see, my faith in the scientific method is not so great when it comes to explanation about realities. On the other hand, when we consider the difference between the sense door and mind door processes and this includes `thinking', this leads to a better understanding of the difference between reality and concepts. And increasingly the thinking when it happens, lean towards Right Thinking, i.e. based on Dhamma principles and not on conventional understanding. So what at this point to you may be a matter of speculation and hence basis for doubt, for example, rebirth and devas, may be the very thing which needs to be understood correctly before there can be any further progress along the Path. I think people like Bachelor appeal to a certain mind set and come across as being realistic, open minded and down to earth. However as far as I am concerned, I think their doubt will continue to increase. In the back of their minds they seek to overcome doubt by actual "seeing" of devas and "experiencing" rebirth. But such experience does not lead to a decrease of doubt in the dhamma sense. Only insight into conditioned realities and ultimately Nibbana, can lead to this. And this may not even involve any perception of other conventional beings. I wanted to reply to Howard too, but this has taken longer than expected, so perhaps I will do that tomorrow. Metta, Sukin. 52386 From: "wchangli" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:40am Subject: difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8 wchangli Hi Nina, Sara, Tep or anyone...... I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as stated below: AAnan¡¦ti abbhantara.m pavisanavaato. Apaanan¡¦ti bahinikkhamanavaato. Keci pana vipariyaayena vadanti. Apaana.m hi apet.m aanato'ti Apaanan¡¦ti vuccati. Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, aapaanan¡¦ ti vutta.m. Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) My difficulties: (1) what does ¡§diighattam¡¨ refer to? (the long breath?) (2) How to translate the last two sentences ? (from "Niddese" till the end; the first 4 sentences is OK for me!) Thank you very much ! 52387 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation jonoabb Hi Mateesha Thanks for the further comments. I understand your thinking on the issue of formal practice, so I know our views differ markedly. However, I'd just like to focus on what's said in the particular sutta passage you quoted. matheesha wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Thank you for the comments, > > > >>J:> The Pali term here translated as 'meditation' is bhavana. >>Bhavana really means 'development' or 'becoming more', and as far as I know does not carry any necessary implication of meditation as we understand that word. >> > >M: When the buddha asks his monks to go to the root of trees to >do 'bhavana' I think it refers to formal meditation. The purpose of >formal meditation is as you mentioned, 'development' of the mind in >ways not possible by any other means. > > My comments related to the earlier references to 'directed/undirected meditation' in this translation, as compared to 'directed/undirected development' in the Bodhi translation. I think that where the Buddha uses a 'neutral' term such as 'development', it is better to accept it as such rather than add a particular slant that is not apparent from the text or supported by the commentaries. Those who translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation' do a disservice to the reader, I believe. Anyway, isn't 'development [of tranquillity/insight]' a clearer term than 'meditation', as a description of what is actually being talked about? >>J:> The instruction regarding the roots of trees seems to be >>directed to Ananda personally. This is more apparent in the Bodhi translation (CDB, p.1640) I think. But in any event, it is not a comment directed to his followers at large, and it is not said to be a prerequisite for the development of the path. >> >> > >M: I'm not sure if it were directed at Ven. Ananda only. >Nevertheless you are right in that it is not for everyone. But that >fact remains thousands of bikkhus did just that as intructed by the >buddha, rather than than a handful who might have not. The suttas >are full of references to it. It only makes sense when you consider >intentional development of the mind. It obviously would have been >very helpful in attaining nibbana. > > Again, talking just about this particular sutta, the Buddha's words were directed to Ananda alone, and are not in the form of a general statement, so we should be careful about reading them too widely, without good supporting references elsewhere. (My own impression from a general reading of suttas is that the monks who observed the special practices that include dwelling at the roots of trees were far fewer in number than their brethren who lived in monastic communities. Nothing scientific about this, however.) >>J:> It is worth noting that the nuns to whom Ananda spoke were "well established in the four foundations of mindfulness" with understanding that was "becoming ever greater and more excellent". Obviously already highly developed in terms of satipatthana. >> >> > >M: Indeed. Only then would one's mind fall away from it, get tired >from it, would find aching of the body a distraction. Not for >someone who doesnt do formal satipattana practice. I think we should >move away from this idea that satipattana is something near >impossible to achieve. Study and contemplation is not going to get >someone there. Only formal prolonged meditation can do this, and it >is possible. People have done it. It is not thinking. It is direct >experiencing of the dhammas. To even understand that direct >experiencing is possible, there has to be some formal practice. >Otherwise it look like an impossible dream, and will remain so. > > According to the sutta, however, development can be either 'directed' or 'undirected'. Even if we see the directed kind as involving formal practice, there's no suggestion of formal practice in the part about undirected development, as I read it. >The Buddha prescribes going to the roots of trees to deveop the four >foundations of mindfulness in this sutta. > He urges Ananda to do so. But he does not, in this particular sutta, say either that this is his advice to all monks, or that satipatthana can only be developed by following that kind of lifestyle. >Seclusion even for a >temporary period of time as a lay person is essential for proper >satipattana practice. Otherwise noting a single dhamma wont make >dent in your avijja which is thicker than we think. Noting a single >dhamma, we will never experience hethu-phala showing how the dhammas >are linked together. Noting a single dhamma we will not notice >arising and passing away to a degree which will move the mind >towards nibbida - which is the basic level of panna for a lay person >as directed by the Buddha (vyaggapajja sutta). > > There is no suggestion from me that the development of the path involves 'noting a single dhamma' (although I have probably said that as there can only be one dhamma as object of insight at a time). But every moment of awareness/insight that arises is valuable, I believe, and accumulates. Yes, avijja is thicker than we think, but then that's why we shouldn't be in too much of a hurry ;-)) Jon PS I'm not familiar with the Vyaggapajja Sutta. Do you have a reference? 52388 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Answer to Tep's Last Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thank you for the reply with definitions of liberation. :-) Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 11/12/05 7:36:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > (snipped) > > > ======================= > By "cognitive liberation" I meant uprooting of ignorance (to some > degree), by "affective liberation" I meant uprooting the inclination to crave and cling (to some degree), and by "complete liberation," I meant both of these - the uprooting of both cognitive and affective defilements, which would be far better called 'balanced liberation'. As I think about it, however, in the special case that cognitive liberation is *full*, with *all* ignorance uprooted, > then full affective liberation would have to occur as well, and so, in that > case, complete liberation and balanced liberation would coincide. When cognitive liberation is only partial, though, as in a stream winner, craving and clinging might well still be very strong, though ceratinly weakened. > > With metta, > Howard 52389 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains / One More Loose End ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thank you for your time and effort in replying to all emails. > > It seems that loose ends are difficult to tie up in our exchanges; one > loose end simply leads to another!! > ... > Apologies for any misreading of your post. Let's consider this loose > end tied ;-)) > Fair enough, Jon ! You're right about the perpetual nature of loose ends. Regards, Tep ======== 52390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada nilovg Dear Joop, you gave me many points and I shall only react to some of them. op 13-11-2005 10:43 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: >> You could chose any passage from the Dhammasangani (first book of >> Abhidhamma), ... J: as far as I remember the Dhammasangani does not > say: there are 89/121 cittas, there are 52 cetasikas, there are 28 > rupas: it gives room to additions to the lists. ------ N: Yes, it starts with: the eight main types of citta of the sensuous plane. However, the study of Abhidhamma is not a matter of memorizing numbers. We can study and see whether it makes sense what is taught about citta and cetasikas. Here is a saying by Kh Sujin I recently quoted: This is what matters. We should not mind the numbers, they just help us to see that there are different cittas. ---------- J: I think we > should sometimes take some distance from Abhidhamma in daily life and > think about Abhidhamma in the future, for the next generation. ------- N: Yes, studying the present moment is so helpful for all times, I think. -------- J: - the "31 realms of existence" do not exist as such (except # 2 and # > 5; they are projections of the human mind. ------- N: When we study them we can see that the right causes produce their appropriate results in the form of births in different planes. Different stages of jhaana lead to different rebirths. ------- N: Further on, I agree no fatalism (as to ending of sasana). As to formal meditation, I would like to say: the development of understanding of any dhamma occurring now should be emphasized, and that is also the study of Abhidhamma. As you say: attention to all aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path.> ------- J: - we should be creative in new forms of homelesnes, new forms of > renunciations, in stead of (only) monastic life. ------ N: Here I think of the perfection of nekkhamma, detachment, that is not only going forth to the homeless life. All kusala deeds are nekkhamma an old subcommentary says. Isn't it true? You renounce your own comfort when helping others. The development of the Path should go together with detachment, detachment all the way. Nina. 52391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nilovg Hi Phil and Charles, But if we consider the D.O. we see that ignorance is at the root of all the dukkha of samsara. Different aspects of explaining the truth. Nina. op 12-11-2005 23:38 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Well yes, that's true. The second truth is craving. The Buddha > doesn't say that the origin of suffering is ignorance. You've got a > major point there! :) 52392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation nilovg Hi Howard, don't answer. We discussed this externally in India. Here is a view: we think all day of others, but even such thinking can be realized as a naama arising becauise of conditions, not self. Kh Sujin said: any time is tea time, evenso: any time is time for sati. You may like this one. Observing the good in others: we do not know, it may only be outward appearance. Nina. op 13-11-2005 00:25 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > One > interpretation of satipatthana "externally" is exactly the observing of (the > signs of) > phenomena in others, and this suggests the usefulness in that. 52393 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation nilovg Hi Tep, beautiful, so true. Howard: Putting into practice what has been studied, taught, repeated, and contemplated; i.e., patapatti based on pariyatti. Follows the sutta, very good. There are roots of trees and empty houses. Develop concentration do not be negligent and later regret. This is our advice. __________________________ H: So, in *this* sutta, 'living according to the teaching" is more restrictive than I guessed. It amounts to wisely thinking about the teaching! (That will be pleasing to many on DSG!!) ------- N: Not merely thinking about the dhamma, but developing understanding of what appears now and awareness of it. ------------ H: Of course, my point in quoting from the sutta was to emphasize the last 3 sentences of the foregoing, which advises formal sitting meditation for the cultivation of concentration. N: Let me not discuss this now. Only as we said before: develop concentration is the translation of jhayati, meaning: contemplate. Two meanings of jhaana: jhana of the meditation subjects of samatha and the lakkhana jhana, contemplation of the three characteristics as they appear. (Discussed here before). Nina 52394 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! nilovg Hi Tep, Let me first go to the end. About the Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; Majjhima Nikaya No. 20 op 12-11-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: We are in perfect agreement here. So you now see the > point made earlier that asubha sanna was useful as the first-aid to > extinguish kamaraga (great lust). What if the lust (and other akusala > vitakka) refuses to go away, no matter what tool you have used ? The > Buddha recommended the most drastic measure as follows: > > "If evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion or > delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of > thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth > clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he > should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness." > [MN 20] That is, when all satipatthana and vipassana fail completely, > use the brute-force technique ! ------- I would like to add the Co I translated from Thai. (You may have this beautiful text): He would not leave his seat until he had reached Buddhahood. N: We read in the Middle Length Sayings, no 36, the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, that the Buddha spoke about his ascetical practices before he became the Sammasambuddha. He said to Aggivessana: He said that while he was doing so sweat poured from his armpits. The Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, (partly rendered by Ven. Bodhi) gives the reasons for the Bodhisatta¹s austerities before his enlightenment: to show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible energy gave him joy. And also out of compassion for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination that he applied to attain Buddhahood. N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisatta¹s supreme effort, but this was accompanied by paññaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu referred to in the who has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be accompanied by paññaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paññaa. > So it has to be emphasized: always with right understanding. The Buddha had great compassion and considered people's different accumulations, he knew what was right for this or that person. You speak of different tools, the Co speaks about different weapons: --------- I posted the whole Co before, and if you like I can give you more parts. ------- > Tep: Did the monks who wanted to leave the order to become > husbands :-) :-) bypassed the Lord's asubha advice to develop ONLY > insight through aniccanupassana, or did they use BOTH asubha > contemplation and aniccanupassana? ------ N: No problem, the one does not exclude the other. Seeing a girl passing to old age reminds of the impermanence of rupa appearing now, right here and now. This reminder is forceful, because the aging body is not exactly beautiful. ------- > Tep: Then why did both the Buddha and Ven. Ananda recommended > asubha sanna , and nekkhamma, to bhikkhus as an effective tool to > extinguish kamaraga? ------- N: Again we have to remember: with vipassana. The bhikkhu who does not develop vipassana is not worthy to be called a recluse, a sutta states. The whole of the Vinaya has to go together with vipassana, never separated from it. If we remember this we understand the meaning of all those rules. Nina. 52395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answer to Tep's Last Questions nilovg Hi Howard, don't answer my post. In a sotaapanna craving cannot lead to akusala kamma patha. When it is only suppressed by samatha in an ordinary person it is smouldering and dangerous. As soon as he is out of jhana, there it is again. There is again seeing, hearing and all the clinging involved. Best is, as I see it, to understand it as a dhamma that is conditioned, not my lobha. When one takes it for my lobha one makes it so great and important, it can become quite a problem. This is just my view, Mike would say, my two cents worth. Like you, I also find that I write too many posts, I need time for writing about India, but it just happens. Dangerous to decide to write less! Who knows. Nina. op 13-11-2005 05:31 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > When cognitive > liberation is only partial, though, as in a stream winner, craving and > clinging might well still be very strong, though ceratinly weakened. 52396 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Diwali, to Siddhu. nilovg Dear Siddhu, your link did not work. We were in Delhi and Arunachal for the Diwali. Unfortunately there were these bombs on the markets in Delhi. We had a beautiful traditional meal with our friend the Governor of Arunachal. Our India pilgrimage and tour was unforgettable. Nina. op 12-11-2005 18:03 schreef Siddharth Kamble op drkamble_1963@...: > Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here 52397 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (and Matheesha) - Your following comment in # 52387 motivated me to write this post. Jon: "I think that where the Buddha uses a 'neutral' term such as 'development', it is better to accept it as such rather than add a particular slant that is not apparent from the text or supported by the commentaries. Those who translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation' do a disservice to the reader, I believe." Tep: According to the PTS Dictionary, it is true that 'bhavana' has a meaning like 'developing by means of thought' and other soft meanings. However, the words 'meditation' and 'cultivation by mind' are also included in the PTS' basket of words. "Bhavana (p. 503) (f.) [fr. bhaveti, or fr. bhava in meaning of bhava 2, cp. Class. Sk. bhavana] producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation, cultivation by mind, culture. Bhavanamaya accomplished by culture practice; brought into existence by practice (of cultured thought)." [endquote] Tep: The term 'bhavana', when combined with other dhamma gives a stronger emphasis to "developed by meditation". For example, 'bhavana saddha' means "faith and confidence developed and matured by meditation"; this developed faith is known as 'saddhindriya' (the controlling faculty of faith). Similarly, 'bhavana manasikara' means "keen attention to meditation", while 'bhavana-sati' means developed meditative mindfulness (known as satipatthana). Ref. 'Requisites of Enlightenment(Bodhipakkhiya-dhamma)' by Venerable Ledi Sayadaw. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e05.htm Tep: Furthermore, the term 'bhavana' is identical to 'kammatthana', which means meditation, in the following article. "The way to train the mind in the Buddhist teaching is called Bhávaná. Another name is Kammatthana. This is to raise the mind to a high level. You shouldn't let your mind wander about freely. A mind without Kammattahana is like a person being unemployed. It is wasteful. If your mind wanders, it creates problems. It will be susceptible to the mental hindrances (Nivarana). So you must train your mind with Kammatthana (Bhávaná). By practicing meditation your mind will go in the right direction. "There are two kinds of Kammatthana (Meditation) in Buddhism:- 1. Samatha-Kammatthana ---- Calm Meditation. This is to calm your mind mental hindrances. 2. Vipassana-Kammatthana --- Insight Meditation. This is to see all things as they really are in order to get rid of all kinds of mental defilement. Insight Meditation is found only in Buddhism. [endquote] http://www.buddhistinformation.com/meditation.htm Tep: The above is just a small part of the articles I found on the Internet on this subject of 'bhavana' and 'meditation'. So it seems that there is a lot for us to learn from those respectable monks and knowledgeable authors out there. I think they are doing a great service to humble readers. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Mateesha > > Thanks for the further comments. I understand your thinking on the > issue of formal practice, so I know our views differ markedly. However, > I'd just like to focus on what's said in the particular sutta passage > you quoted. > (snipped) > > My comments related to the earlier references to 'directed/undirected > meditation' in this translation, as compared to 'directed/undirected > development' in the Bodhi translation. I think that where the Buddha > uses a 'neutral' term such as 'development', it is better to accept it > as such rather than add a particular slant that is not apparent from the > text or supported by the commentaries. Those who translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation' do a disservice to the reader, I believe. > 52398 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joop, > you gave me many points and I shall only react to some of them. ... Dear Nina Thanks for your reaction to many of my points. Of some we agree (especially the last one about detachment), of some I think we have a different perspective. I want react to one J: - the "31 realms of existence" do not exist as such (except # 2 and # 5); they are projections of the human mind. ------- N: When we study them we can see that the right causes produce their appropriate results in the form of births in different planes. Different stages of jhaana lead to different rebirths. ------- Joop (now): I'm afraid you did not pay attention to the purpose of this thread when writing this. I know this is your opinion, but my indirect statement was: "It's possible to have a Theravada Buddhism in which the 31 minus 2 realms of existence don't play a role. Because there are more fundamental aspects then this one (it's not a necessary condition for awakening for having been in one of this 29-2 realms.And because without it this Theravada will attract much more modern human beings it's acceptable to drop it." Do you agree with this statement? Metta Joop N: Here I think of the perfection of nekkhamma, detachment, > that is not only > going forth to the homeless life. All kusala deeds are nekkhamma an old > subcommentary says. Isn't it true? You renounce your own comfort when > helping others. The development of the Path should go together with > detachment, detachment all the way. > Nina. > 52399 From: nina Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:38am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 8, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Sujin: Is sound rúpa? It is. We should correctly understand that that which is real and has a characteristic that appears but which cannot know anything, is rúpa. If we have no eyes do we see rúpa? If we have no ears, can we hear the rúpa that is sound? Are the rúpa that is seen and the rúpa that is heard, the same? They are not. There are many kinds of rúpa and each kind can appear through the appropriate doorway. Can rúpa sit? It cannot. If we understand this, it is correct understanding, because hardness does not sit, heat does not sit. Therefore, the rúpas of the body have the characteristics of cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion or pressure. If one truly understands this, one will be able to realize the arising and falling away of those rúpas. If one has right understanding one will see that of the rúpas all over the body only very little remains. But where do they remain? The rúpas from head to toe have all disappeared. Very little remains, but where? If one has a concept of a whole, of a sitting posture, the idea of self cannot be abandoned. Only the rúpa is experienced exactly at that point where it appears, no matter whether it is hardness, heat, motion or pressure, and this is according to the truth that rúpa cannot be self. We used to believe that the rúpas from head to toe, the great Elements (mahå-bhúta rúpas), were present all the time. However, in reality those rúpas only appear one at a time, when they are experienced through body-contact. Even if one has not attained vipassanå ñåna, insight knowledge, can one understand that this is true? We should consider whether it is true or not that rúpa appears only at that point where it is experienced through body-contact. At the other parts of the body there are no rúpas appearing, they do not remain. Everybody at this moment knows through remembrance, saññå, that he has arms, legs, a face and the body he is familiar with. Can anything appear, such as the head, eyebrows, face, nose, mouth, when it is not experienced through body-contact? Is this true or not? We have to verify and investigate even at this moment whether this is the truth. Otherwise the wrong view of a self who exists cannot be abandoned. Insight knowledge is the penetration of the truth of realities as they naturally appear in daily life. The truth is that nothing is left except the rúpa which appears through the bodysense. This is the truth, but at this moment one has no insight knowledge because paññå has not been developed to that degree. Paññå has not been developed that knows that in reality only one characteristic of rúpa appears at a time, when it is experienced through touch. When the rúpa that arises because of its appropriate conditions is not experienced through body-contact, it just arises and falls away very rapidly and it does not appear. If we understand the truth and sammå-sati, right mindfulness can arise and be aware, there is only a characteristic of rúpa that appears, only the characteristic that sati is aware of. When the understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa grows, no matter whether they appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body or the mind-door, one will gradually cling less to the wrong view of self. Insight knowledge that clearly realizes dhammas as they are, knows the truth because paññå leads to detachment from the wrong view of self. ***** Nina.