52800 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Hi Smallchap, op 25-11-2005 05:05 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: >> N: I said this out of concern that people take the false jhana for > the right >> one. A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are real > dangers >> here. > > S: How could we tell a false jhana from a real one? Could you describe > real jhana in detail? (Well I know one is not in jhana when there is > physical movement of his body/body parts.) -------- N: Paññaa can discern real jhana from false jhana which is wrong concentration. First a quote from Kh Sujin's Survey (taken from Rob K's web: ) end quote. I can give an example. If one wants to develop metta, it is very difficult to see the difference between true metta and selfish affection, which is the near enemy of metta. Akusala citta follows kusala citta so closely and they succeed one another extremely rapidly. We are likely to mislead ourselves time and again. We are likely to take for kusala what is akusala. From the example above, cited in Survey, we see that this also happens with regard to feeling. One may feel very calm, free from disturbance, but what is this? It is paññaa that can know the truth. We talked long ago about pittfalls, do you remember? If one is aware of them it is already helpful. Those who develop samatha must see the danger of akusala and the value of detachment from sense objects. Even seeing now is followed very closely by attachment, but we do not notice this. Unknowingly we are attached to all that we experience through the senses. It may be attachment accompanied by indifferent feeling. It is pañña that can discern such moments and it is pañña that leads to detachment. **** Nina. 52801 From: nina Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:07am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 201 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 201 Intro: In the foregoing sections feeling has been classified as gross or subtle according to the jaati or class of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya, and also according to characteristic, sabhaava. In this section feeling is classified as gross and subtle according to person, but here this actually means according to plane of citta. ------------ Text Vis. 201:c 'According to person': feeling in one who has no attainment is 'gross' compared with that in one who has one, because it is distracted by a multiple object. In the opposite sense the other is subtle. This is how grossness and subtlety should be understood according to person. --------- N: The Tiika explains that feelings can also be classified as gross and subtle with regard to plane of consciousness, bhuumi. There are four planes of citta: the sensuous plane, the plane of ruupa-jhana, the plane of aruupa-jhaana and the plane of lokuttara citta. Planes of consciousness are different from planes of existence, which denote the place where one is born. The different planes of citta are classified in accordance with the object that is experienced. The sensuous plane of citta is the lowest plane. The sense objects are called low, inferior (hiina). Those who develop jhaana see the disadvantage of sense objects and the defilements that arise on account of them. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion: The muulatiika adds: the nimitta of the earth kasina has a unitary nature, ekabhaava. The person who attains jhaana is not distracted by sense objects, he only experiences the meditation subject with absorption. The jhaanacitta, the accompanying feeling and the other cetasikas are more refined than the citta and cetasikas that experience sense objects. Aruupa-jhaanacitta is more subtle than ruupa-jhaanacitta. However, by jhaanacitta defilements are only temporarily subdued, not eradicated. The Path-consciousness, lokuttara magga-citta, eradicates defilements. The lokuttara citta and accompanying cetasikas, including feeling, are more subtle than jhaana-citta and the accompanying cetasikas. The lokuttara citta and cetasikas, including feeling, experience the signless, animitta, that is: nibbaana. This means the highest peace. ***** 52802 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, continuation nilovg Hi Tep, op 22-11-2005 04:09 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > More questions : We need panna through direct knowledge to conquer > akusala, but how is it possible that direct knowledge or direct > awareness may arise when there is an akusala citta at that moment? ------- N: When it has just fallen away sati and paññaa arising in a following process can discern its characteristic and it can be realized as a conditioned dhamma, not my akusala. If it is not known as it truly is it cannot be eradicated. See the application of mindfulness of citta: the citta with raaga and without it should be known as non-self. Attachment and aversion are hindrances but they can be known as conditioned dhammas, just dhammas. Akusala, kusala, seeing, visible object, they all have to be known as just dhammas, and not merely in theory. They have to be known when they appear. ------- T: And even if there is no akusala in the citta for several moments, is that > sufficient for direct knowledge to arise? If the answer is 'yes', then we all > can become arahants in this very life. ------- N: When there is kusala citta without pannñaa or vipaakacitta, all these can be objects of awareness after they have just fallen away. I do not think of arahatship, it takes very long for understanding to develop as insight, arising subsequently in stages, before even the stage of sotaapanna is reached. > ........................ > T:> N: Among them Buddhanussati, metta, foulness of the > body, mindfulness of death. Metta when we meet or think of others; > foulness: we carry it around, it is with us; mindfulness of death: are we > not confronted with death also around us? > > Tep: Are you implying that we do not need the "undirected meditation" > to develop "direct awareness" (by 'bhavana')? ------ N: I do not understand your question here. Perhaps you understand bhavana differently? See the discussions with Jon. Or do you mean directed meditation? These terms may be misleading. We do not "use" anything to develop direct awareness, because it grows naturally when there is more listening and considering and the right saññaa of Dhamma remembers and supports sati by being its proximate cause. I should correct a term I used in connection with meditation for all ocaasions: it should be sabbatthikakamma.t.thaana. This is in the subco. to the Satipatthanasutta. > T: [Discussion of Ten Perceptions AN X.60, or the Gradual Sayings, Book > of the Tens, Ch VI, § 6 ] > Tep: Thank you so much, Nina, for talking about this great sutta. > I see your point that sati (mindfulness) is there for the development of > tranquillity and insight. It is clear that the tenth "idea" (sanna), i.e. the > anapanasati, is based on satipatthana. But why all ten are needed? > Even the anapanasat kammatthana is sufficient by itself for attaining > the "deathless". ------- N: As to non-delight in all the world, of impermanence, of ill, of the not-self, of abandoning, of fading interest, and the idea of ending, these refer to insight that has been developed. Non-delight in all the word is non-delight, detachment from the five khandhas. The khandhas are called the world. As to the remaining ones, it all depends on conditions, there is nobody to direct anything. As to anapanasati: mindfulness of breath as just rupa, and all the stages of insight have to be developed. We read this in the commentary, in the Visuddhimagga. ______ T: One more question: Do you think that the perception of abandoning > (pahana sanna) or "the idea of abandoning" is very much the same as > the "thought relaxation" sutta (MN 20) that we discussed earlier? -------- N: It refers to higher insight. Paññaa becomes more and more detached from conditioned dhammas. A context different from the sutta on the Removal of akusala thoughts. I am not so much thinking of relaxation of thoughts, rather of abandoning by understanding. ------- >> N: Thus, it is emphasized here that paññå that leads to >> detachment . The arahat has thorough comprehension of lobha, >> so that it can be completely eradicated. > > Tep: I agree wholeheartedly if the panna that leads to detachment is > the "full-understanding as abandoning" [Vism. XX, 3]. But what about > us? How do we "get there"? ------- N: Good question, food for thought. Thinking: how do we get there, is thinking and this does not bring us anywhere. Full understanding has to begin, and the question is how and when? By learning and considering of what is right at hand at this moment. Only the five khandhas. I quote a sutta: ****** Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?' 'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ... by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of once-returning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by one who is an anagami (non-returner)?' 'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'. 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self- possession even in this present life.' (End sutta) _________ Seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha, whatever appears now is khandha. ****** Nina. 52803 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:11am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 319- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [m] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] So long as one has not become a sotåpanna there are opportunities for the arising of stinginess. Some people have stinginess more often than others, or someone may have stinginess as to certain objects, such as money, but not as to other objects, such as praise or Dhamma; it all depends on people’s accumulations. But even if someone is very stingy by nature, his attitude can be changed. Through right understanding one can learn to develop generosity. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Hi James, op 25-11-2005 11:08 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: What do you mean by false jhana and right jhana? I only know > of jhana with right view and jhana with wrong view. The first type > can lead to enlightenment and the second type leads to rebirth in > the higher realms. ------- N: Jhana by itself cannot lead to enlightenment. Also insight has to be developed. That is why the Buddha said: jhana alone is not enough. Concentration that is accompanied by wrong view is also accompanied by attachment and that is wrong concentration, not jhana. It cannot lead to rebirth in brahma planes. The result of right jhana isrebirth in brahma planes. --------- J: Nina: A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are > real dangers here. > > James: What "dangers" are you referring to? Again, I think that > this is in reference to that gossip about a jhana teacher who > supposedly has suicidal tendencies. Let's say, for the sake of > argument, that this gossip is true and he does indeed have suicidal > tendencies. Is jhana to blame for that?? ------- N: Wrong concentration he took for jhana. Dangers: see my recent post to smallchap. ------ Nina. 52805 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:16am Subject: By very Nature ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: By very Nature - inherently & inevitably - Decaying & Vanishing! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said: Bhikkhus, All is by nature subject to birth... All is by nature subject to ageing... All is by nature subject to decay & sickness... All is by nature subject to death... All is by nature subject to trouble... All is by nature subject to corruption... All is by nature subject to destruction... All is by nature subject to vanishing... All is by nature subject to emergence... All is by nature subject to ceasing... And what, bhikkhus, is this All, that is by nature subject to birth, ageing, decay, sickness, death, trouble, corruption, destruction, vanishing, ever arising & ceasing ? The Eye ... Forms ... Eye-consciousness ... Eye-contact... Whatever feeling arised caused by eye-contact, that is by nature subject to ever arising and ceasing... The Ear ... Sounds ... Ear-consciousness ... Ear-contact... Whatever feeling arised caused by Ear-contact, that is by nature subject to ever arising and ceasing... The Nose ... Smells ... Nose-consciousness ... Nose-contact... Whatever feeling arised caused by Nose-contact, that is by nature subject to ever arising and ceasing... The Tongue ... Tastes ... Tongue-consciousness ... Tongue-contact... Whatever feeling arised caused by Tongue-contact, that is by nature subject to ever arising & ceasing... The Body ... Touches ... Body-consciousness ... Body-contact... Whatever feeling arised caused by Body-contact, that is by nature subject to ever arising and ceasing... The Mind ... Thoughts ... Mind-consciousness ... Mind-contact... Whatever feeling arised caused by Mind-contact, that is by nature subject to ever arising and ceasing... Understanding this, the intelligent noble disciple becomes disgusted with this All ... Being thus disgusted produces disillusion... This disillusion induces a mental release !!! When detached, the mind remains unagitated! Being utterly imperturbable one attains Awakening right there & instantly understands: This mind is irreversibly freed ... !!! Repeated rebirth is ended, this Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond or surpassing this ... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 27-28 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Birth: Jati Sutta (33-4) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 52806 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > op 25-11-2005 11:08 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > James: What do you mean by false jhana and right jhana? I only know > > of jhana with right view and jhana with wrong view. The first type > > can lead to enlightenment and the second type leads to rebirth in > > the higher realms. > ------- > N: Jhana by itself cannot lead to enlightenment. James: Well, it certainly did for the Buddha. The Buddha's practice of jhana alone lead to the arising of supermundane knowledges and the destruction of the fetters. Also insight has to be > developed. That is why the Buddha said: jhana alone is not enough. James: Where did the Buddha say this and in what context? > Concentration that is accompanied by wrong view is also accompanied by > attachment and that is wrong concentration, not jhana. James: Right. You are the one contradiciting yourself. You are the one who said that there is wrong jhana. I asked you what that is- and now you are saying that there isn't wrong jhana, there is wrong concentration. It cannot lead to > rebirth in brahma planes. > The result of right jhana isrebirth in brahma planes. James: Or enlightenment. > --------- > J: Nina: A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are > > real dangers here. > > > > James: What "dangers" are you referring to? Again, I think that > > this is in reference to that gossip about a jhana teacher who > > supposedly has suicidal tendencies. Let's say, for the sake of > > argument, that this gossip is true and he does indeed have suicidal > > tendencies. Is jhana to blame for that?? > ------- > N: Wrong concentration he took for jhana. > Dangers: see my recent post to smallchap. > ------ James: Okay, I read the post. It is just a bunch of words from KS, without any sources cited at all. Why am I supposed to believe her when she doesn't provide support? And again, you don't know anything about this person you are referring to. Have you spoken or written to him/her directly???? > Nina. > Metta, James 52807 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > OK, this is the last post. :-) ... Dear Sukin The end of the discussion I really liked, although we haven't convinced the other, but was with great respect of the other. I do understand your viewpoint now better then I did. Some short remarks. (1)> Joop: Oh yes, it can. 'Conventional' language is only a more > clumsy than ultimate language, but can describe the same truth. Sukin: "So what is it, are the Truths conventional or ultimate? I am not clear as to what you mean." Joop (now): I think better is to say 'conventional' c.q. 'ultimate' reality And the best to say is: conventional c.q. ultimate language to describe reality: what reality "as such" is, is unknown. ============================================== (2) Sukin (quoting) "Right livelihood, sammå-åjíva, is the cetasika which abstains from wrong livelihood, micchå-åjíva, namely: the three kinds of unwholesome bodily action and the four kinds of unwholesome speech pertaining to one's livelihood. When one abstains from wrong livelihood, the cetasika which is right livelihood performs the function of abstaining from wrong livelihood. Joop: This is a good point that shows that we have a different view. To me"right livelihood" is about taking moral decisions and about ethical behavior in daily life. ============================================== (3) Sukin: "Then why meditate at all? What in your opinion is the difference between `meditating' and `not meditating'?" Joop: Good question. My answer: - Partly faith, - Partly my experience that it works well with me, helps me in better understanding the Dhamma. - And partly: at the end (when I do well) there is no difference We will meet again on DSG, I think Metta Joop Ps: I think sending"Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" to Europe is to expensive. And I already have it downloaded and a first part I have been printing and reading. So: no, thanks 52808 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha better then vipasana ? (Was: Re: Hi All upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 11/25/05 3:37:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Vipassana meditation made me > depressed, fearful, irritated, and unenergetic. (Howard writes in > post 52774 that he has never experienced these negative consequences > of vipassana meditation. I can only believe that he hasn't > practiced pure vipassana meditation or he hasn't practiced long > enough to get to these stages- because they do occur!!). ======================= Well, of course you may be right, and that more Goenka retreats might have led to that. However, I did have some prior jhana experience before ever trying a Goenka retreat. Also, at that retreat, I was certainly not doing what Mahasi Sayadaw seems to describe as pure vipassana. By the point at which I was clearly experiencing what I think of as energy-pulses throughout the body, I was at least in (the equivalent of) access samadhi, being completely calm and mildly joyful, and very, very stable. I was in a state of complete alertness, and I probably could have continued for a couple hours straight that way during a sitting. And at each sitting, by the midpoint of the retreat, it took only a minute or so to get to this stage. So, there was no "dry vipassana" involved in what *I* was doing. If anything, what I was doing strikes me as closer to the sort of in-tandem meditation that Ven. Vimalaramsi advocates. As for the other participants at the Goenka retreat, I can't say. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52809 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:34am Subject: Opportunity to Radiate Metta buddhatrue Hi All, I found a web site which offers the opportunity to personalize and focus the practice of metta: http://www.heartshands.org/network.html If you are in need of metta or would like to join the network of those who radiate metta for the benefit of other beings, you can sign onto this web site and join the network. Here is some information from the site: "How to do distance healing You can use the power of your thoughts with the intention of helping situations and people. You can deliberately visualise and imagine a person well and happy and affect them by the energy of our thoughts. We can use this form of healing – commonly called distance healing – to help people who are in grief, who are sick, depressed, traumatised, facing danger or just in need of love." The more people – the greater the effect It has been found that the more people do this at the same time the greater the effect – far more than the sum of the individuals, so Hearts and Hands has formed a network of people wanting to do this valuable work. You can get together with a couple of friends and work together on a regular basis to meditate and give distance healing. The meditation will be extremely beneficial to you as it is relaxing for the emotions and physical body and also allows you to get closer to the inner you. Below are details of our healing networks." Metta, James 52810 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hi All upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 11/25/05 4:19:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Howard: For me, the consequences were very good. So I would guess it > is a very individual matter. I, regardless of the fact that Goenka > terms his approach 'vipassana', think that it is a combined samatha- > vipassana approach, and I also think that a combined approach was > the central one taught by the Buddha. I consider anapansati to be a > combined approach, for example, though one can push it one way or > the other. Anapanasati is my main practice now, BTW, and has been > for a long time, with my switching off to body sweeping only when I > feel the need to enhance clarity &focus. > > James: Howard, from this description it doesn't sound like you are > practicing the Goenka method; actually, you are practicing the exact > opposite of the Goenka method! ;-)) His book on meditation, "The Art > of Living", was my bible for many years so I know of what I speak! ;- > ) Goenka teaches initial anapanasati to build concentration. > Actually, he states that this concentration should be built until > one can remain focused on the breath for 10 in-and-out breaths > without losing concentration. THEN, one is to begin the sweeping of > the body, from top to bottom, for sensations and that is supposed to > be the main focus of the practice. One is only supposed to go back > to the breath when concentration has been lost while scanning the > body. You, however, are doing the exact opposite of this. You are > predominately practicing anapanasati and then doing the body > scanning when concentration becomes unfocused. > > Forgive me for saying so, but you can't judge the strengths or > weaknesses of a given technique unless you practice it the way it is > taught. You can't say "The Goenka method works well for me" when > you aren't even practicing the Goenka method. > > Metta, > James > =========================== What I described isn't what I did at the Goenka retreat, but is what I do *now*, though even there the samatha content of my practice was very strong. In any case, despite the wonderful no-self experience that I had at the Goenka retreat, for which I will always be grateful, I am not a Goenka-style practitioner at this point, but an anapanasatika (to coin a phrase). I found that outside of a retreat context (in which one meditates 5 to 8 hours a day), back at home meditating even 2 hours a day, which is the home practice Goenka recommends, I was no longer getting what I considered adequate practice. I found that continuing with anapanasati at home as an in-tandem, samatha/vipassana approach was better for me. At this point, my anapanasati meditation practice is getting close to the at-least-access-concentration stage that I had while meditating at the retreat, with great calm and clarity combined, and fairly stable. On occasion, the stability will falter, either due to sloth & torpor or, oppositely, to distraction, and then turning attention to energy-pulse sensations in the body seems to serve as a corrective (just a handy technique that works for me), at which point I return to anapanasati. I suspect that as I continue with anapanasati practice, which I have been far more regular with since reducing my internet posting, the absorptive power and stability will increase. I'm very pleased with my current mode of practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52811 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 11/25/05 9:29:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > N: Jhana by itself cannot lead to enlightenment. > > James: Well, it certainly did for the Buddha. The Buddha's practice > of jhana alone lead to the arising of supermundane knowledges and > the destruction of the fetters. > ========================= What then distinguished, in terms of practice, the Buddha from his teachers who had mastered the jhanas? I think that perhaps it lies in that aspect of samadhi that is termed "right effort". As I see it, that involves an equanimous and clear investigation of dhammas as they arise and cease, a clear, calm seeing of phenomena and their nature. That, based upon the calm due to sila and concentration leads to liberating wisdom, as I see it. That investigation of dhammas, most ideally from the base of the 4th jhana, enables the direct seeing of the tilakkhana and of dependent origination, and from that on to awakening. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52812 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? ashkenn2k Hi Joop I would prefer that the anatta is not in the extreme end because it occurs in every moment unless in the scale the anatta you are saying can only be fully understood during enlightment. Understanding rupa and nama helps in the development of wisdom as it develops the understanding of anatta but being too engross in this may sweep one off the feet. Let the understanding of it arise as one develops the path because what we see are only glimpses, the distinction between them is still not yet clear. It will be clear eventually :-). Some may prefer looking as nama as nama, rupa as rupa, I prefer to look at cittas as not-self, dukkha and anicca. I just not tune to look at the differences between nama and rupa because somehow it does not sing the melody inside my cittas :-) Maybe next time it will, who knows. Cheers! Ken O 52813 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana ashkenn2k Hi James > James: Well, it certainly did for the Buddha. The Buddha's > practice of jhana alone lead to the arising of supermundane knowledges and the destruction of the fetters. Please read these sutta quotes Buddha before he attain enlightement learn Jhanas from two teachers all the way till the immaterial jhanas and that does not make him enlighted, MN 26, The Noble Search <<15......"Friend Kalama, I want to lead the holy life in this Dhamma and Disciplne.......... Thus Alarama, my teacher, placed me, his pupil on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to me: This Dhamma does not lead to dischantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge to enlightement, to Nibbana, but only appearance in the base of nothingness. Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left 16....I went to Uddaka Ramaputta and said to him: 'Friend, I want to lead the holy life in this Dhamma and Discipline....... Thus Uddaka Rmaputta, my companion in the holy life placed me in the position of a teacher and accord me the highest honour. But it occured to me: This Dhamma does not lead to dischantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge to enlightement, to Nibbana, but only appearance in the base of neither-preception-nor-non-preception. Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left.>> AN (IV, 123), The Jhanas and Rebirth <> [My note - this is the same till the four jhanas] I hope this spelt out the difference between right and wrong jhanas. Ken O 52814 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:35am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi James, > James: I believe that this is possible also. Therefore, I have > argued that the Buddha, before his enlightenment, while still a > bodhisatta, hadn't practiced the four jhanas with his previous > teachers. He learned how to attain the immaterial jhanas directly > without going through the four jhanas first. However, that argument > sent Htoo into a tizzy! ;-)) Do you have any textual support for > your belief which corresponds with mine? I couldn't find any. M: Why do you believe that someone could go directly into an immaterial jhana? I think such a thing might only be possible for someone who is well versed in rupa jhana in the first place. The cullasunnata sutta seems to have left out the rupa jhana bit and talks directly about arupa jhana, after talking about Earth. I have seen no other evidence in the suttas. My stand is that if something happens it happens (you can barbecue chicken), but just because it is not mentioned in the suttas that you can barbecue chicken doesnt mean it is impossible! Perhaps a better example would be trying to keep sila can lead to frustration- not mentioned anywhere in the suttas in that context as far as i know, but it does happen. J:I have been reading in past posts that you have > achieved jhana. Congratulations!! You write that it is no big > deal, but it is a big deal really. M: Thanky you. Actually it is not. Ridding my mind of craving. Now THAT is a big deal. Keeping my sila 100%. That is difficult. Being mindful right through the day when im working. That is hard. Jhana needs only mindfulness for an hour or two every day. Easier. The three training need to be developed in their own right. And have only a little overlap. Just because one is developed doesnt mean much for the other two. The proof of what you are doing must be relflected in increasing levels of happiness in line with the dhamma, otherwise it is a sham. J: Personally, I don't think I have achieved jhana > yet, but when I do I doubt that I will announce it in this group. > Several members of DSG are very anti-jhana, which is unfortunate I > think. M: :) If you have viriya you will achieve jhana. The Buddha said we are like craftsmen making swords. We take our minds and rid it of impurities. Jhana is like a heavy hammer in the process, striking at the metal to do just that. If someone can be so blinded and blinkered that they disregard evidence in the suttas,and think that everyone else in the world is wrong apart from their little cirlce, what is that except foolishness, subtle intellectual conceit and wrong view? metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > > > Hi joop, > > > > >J: This week I have been reading the Cula-suññata Sutta (MN 121). > In > > > most Suttas about jhana the Buddha explicit uses the > term 'jhana'. > > > But not in this one. > > > > > > So my question is: > > > Is this Sutta about 'contemplating' emptiness, that is reading > and > > > thinking about the text again and again, being in a (daily life) > > > state and in this way understanding emptiness better and better? > > > Or is the Buddha describing formal meditation, especially jhanic > one, > > > reaching "the base of nothingness"? > > > > M: Yes, it is interesting that he doesnt use the word jhana. > Equally > > interesting that he speaks of moving from the earth kasina to > arupa > > (jhana) directly, bypassing the rupa jhanas. I believe that this > is > > possible. > > James: I believe that this is possible also. Therefore, I have > argued that the Buddha, before his enlightenment, while still a > bodhisatta, hadn't practiced the four jhanas with his previous > teachers. He learned how to attain the immaterial jhanas directly > without going through the four jhanas first. However, that argument > sent Htoo into a tizzy! ;-)) Do you have any textual support for > your belief which corresponds with mine? I couldn't find any. > > I think he is talking of the jhanas because the immaterial > > (arupa) jhanas are mentioned in order, and also because he speaks > of > > animitta (signless) concentration ('without a theme'). > > > > He seems to be speaking of the mind of an arahath at the end and > the > > emptiness he enjoys. Gave me goosebumps! > > James: Matheesha, I have been reading in past posts that you have > achieved jhana. Congratulations!! You write that it is no big > deal, but it is a big deal really. To achieve jhana means that the > other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are in place because > jhana is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. You are much > closer to enlightenment than those who haven't achieved jhana. It > was quite brave of you to reveal this aspect of your personal > practice because I'm sure that you will get some jealous and > spiteful reactions. Personally, I don't think I have achieved jhana > yet, but when I do I doubt that I will announce it in this group. > Several members of DSG are very anti-jhana, which is unfortunate I > think. > > > > > metta > > > > Matheesha > > > > Metta, > James > 52815 From: connie Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:49am Subject: Re: Hi All nichiconn Good morning and welcome home, James. James: [snip] desire may be for skin-on-skin contact...groaning and moaning ecstacy...nasty and dirty satisfaction!! Ahhh...Ahhhh...Ahhhhhhhhhhhh... Hmmm...what the heck is all that about??? Connie: LOL. Yes, "clinging to being". James: [snip] Eating a chocolate cake and having the best sex of your life are exactly the same in experience- it is just the mental proliferation which makes them different. Connie: "Exactly the same only different" and "it goes without saying" (inevitably accompanied by the saying of "it") are two of my favorite phrases but irritation arises when someone says you can't "have your cake and eat it" meaning "eat your cake and have it". Cake might be a repulsive yet "necessary evil"/requisite as a medication, but it's not so easy to consider indulging in our appetites for/with another (hopefully) living being with similar appetites quite the same way. But I think I hear the sole virgin chocolate cake left over from yesterday's great Thanksgiving orgy calling me now. peace, connie 52816 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana jwromeijn Dear Nina and James (and all), Reading "The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana (Wheel No. 351/353) will be good for both of you. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html For Nina for understanding that formal samatha meditation within the frame of reference in which panna and sila have (had) the attention of the meditator, is a good means. For James for understanding that our path is not samatha alone, that the Noble Eightfold Path has seven more aspects. Metta Joop 52817 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:33am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhatrue Hi Math, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi James, > M: Why do you believe that someone could go directly into an > immaterial jhana? I think such a thing might only be possible for > someone who is well versed in rupa jhana in the first place. James: Uhhhh...you wrote in post #52521: "Equally interesting that he speaks of moving from the earth kasina to arupa (jhana) directly, bypassing the rupa jhanas. I believe that this is possible." Math, you need to make up your mind! ;-)) Metta, James 52818 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear Nina and James (and all), > > Reading "The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola > Gunaratana (Wheel No. 351/353) will be good for both of you. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html > For James for understanding that our path is not samatha alone, that > the Noble Eightfold Path has seven more aspects. James: LOL! I am well aware of that. What makes you think I am not aware of that? > > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James 52819 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Ken O, Oh boy! You're back again. Now, this is definitely going to be a test of my equanimity! ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi James > > > James: Well, it certainly did for the Buddha. The Buddha's > > practice of jhana alone lead to the arising of supermundane > knowledges and the destruction of the fetters. > > Please read these sutta quotes > > Buddha before he attain enlightement learn Jhanas from two teachers > all the way till the immaterial jhanas and that does not make him > enlighted, MN 26, The Noble Search > <<15......"Friend Kalama, I want to lead the holy life in this Dhamma > and Disciplne.......... > > Thus Alarama, my teacher, placed me, his pupil on an equal footing > with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to > me: This Dhamma does not lead to dischantment, to dispassion, to > cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge to enlightement, to Nibbana, > but only appearance in the base of nothingness. Not being satisfied > with that Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left > > 16....I went to Uddaka Ramaputta and said to him: 'Friend, I want to > lead the holy life in this Dhamma and Discipline....... > > Thus Uddaka Rmaputta, my companion in the holy life placed me in the > position of a teacher and accord me the highest honour. But it > occured to me: This Dhamma does not lead to dischantment, to > dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge to > enlightement, to Nibbana, but only appearance in the base of > neither-preception-nor-non-preception. Not being satisfied with that > Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left.>> James: So? As I wrote, the Buddha achieved enlightenment while in the fourth jhana. Do you dispute this fact? > > AN (IV, 123), The Jhanas and Rebirth > < world. What four? > Here monks, some person enters and dwells in the first jhana, which > is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and > happiness, born of seclusion. He relishes it, longs for it and finds > satisfaction in it. Having become steady int it, resolved on it, > often dwellling in it, without falling away from it, on passing away > he is reborn in the company of devas of the Brahma Company. The > measure of lifespan of those deva is an aeon. The worldling remains > there for the full lifespan and then after completing the lifespan of > those devas, he goes to hell or to the animal realm or to the sphere > of ghosts. But for the discple to the Blessed One reamins there for > the full lifespan, and then after completing the lifespan of the > devas, he attains final Nibbana. This monk is the distinction, the > disparity, the difference between the instructed noble disciple and > the uninstructed worlding, that is, in regard to destination and > rebirth>> [My note - this is the same till the four jhanas] James: I am aware of this sutta having read it before. As I stated, jhana with wrong view will result in rebirth in the higher realms. > > I hope this spelt out the difference between right and wrong jhanas. James: Ken O, if you want to "school" me, at least "school" me in something I don't know already. ;-) > > > > Ken O Metta, James 52820 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 11/25/05 9:29:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > N: Jhana by itself cannot lead to enlightenment. > > > > James: Well, it certainly did for the Buddha. The Buddha's practice > > of jhana alone lead to the arising of supermundane knowledges and > > the destruction of the fetters. > > > ========================= > What then distinguished, in terms of practice, the Buddha from his > teachers who had mastered the jhanas? I think that perhaps it lies in that aspect > of samadhi that is termed "right effort". James: Yes, that was a large factor. The other aspect is right view. The Buddha-to-be had a different objective. But his former teacher were not that far off. Actually, the Buddha, after his enlightenment, thought that he should go to his former teachers first, before anyone else, to teach them what he had learned- because he knew that they would be able to understand it the best. Unfortunately, he found out that they had both died, so he taught the five ascetics first instead. As I see it, that involves an > equanimous and clear investigation of dhammas as they arise and cease, a clear, > calm seeing of phenomena and their nature. That, based upon the calm due to sila > and concentration leads to liberating wisdom, as I see it. That investigation > of dhammas, most ideally from the base of the 4th jhana, enables the direct > seeing of the tilakkhana and of dependent origination, and from that on to > awakening. James: Well said!! > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 52821 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi James, > > M: Why do you believe that someone could go directly into an > > immaterial jhana? I think such a thing might only be possible for > > someone who is well versed in rupa jhana in the first place. > > James: Uhhhh...you wrote in post #52521: > > "Equally interesting that he speaks of moving from the earth kasina > to arupa (jhana) directly, bypassing the rupa jhanas. I believe that > this is possible." > > Math, you need to make up your mind! ;-)) M: Incredible. We keep getting mixed up! I do believe it is possible to go directly into arupa jhana. I'm just wondering why you said you thought that this was true as well. :) metta Matheesha 52822 From: nina Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:33am Subject: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, **** Nina. 52823 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:43am Subject: Samatha better then vipasana ? (Was: Re: Hi All jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop (and Howard), > ... Dear James, James: Oh, okay. From my understanding Mahasi-style meditation is the application of mental "labels" to mental and physical phenomenon in order to distance identification with them. So that it is no longer "I am sitting" but "sitting, sitting, sitting". Is my understanding correct? Joop: yes, only "sitting" is not a good example because is a concept; "seeing, seeing" is a better example. Samatha-object are concepts; Vipassana objects are realities (dhammas). To recap your evaluation of vipassana-meditation Mahasi-style: it's dangerous and the Buddha didn't teach it, it's contrary to sati. This latter remark amazes me: isn't 'sati mindfulness? From your Mahasi-quote you can understand that vipassana is not always agreable but that's not the same as dangerous. Further: I have never heart vipassana-meditators start without access concentration and nobody (even those with long retreats) experienced dangerous experiences. There are sometimes experiences of fear, misery, disgust but that are only short periods. James: "Now, on the other hand, what can one expect through the practice of samatha/jhana meditation? Well, the Buddha describes that in several suttas: … This seems much more pleasant to me than having to experience fear, misery, disgust, and lamentation as a means to enlightenment. " Joop: I'm afraid this is exactly what vipassana-teachers say against pure samatha: it's to pleasant, one gets attached to that pleasant feeling. So my view (still) is: the best is doing vipassana and doing samatha; and combine this with the other six aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta Joop 52824 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Joop > > I would prefer that the anatta is not in the extreme end because it > occurs in every moment unless in the scale the anatta you are saying > can only be fully understood during enlightment. Hallo Ken O You are talking about anicca, not about anatta, in your message Anicca is difficult, much more difficult then anicca! Added to my drawing: Extreme W --------------------------------------Extreme I ......DO...Kamma......Two r anicca...Nama-rupa...Anatta Metta Joop 52825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Dear Joop, thanks, I have the booklet. It has very good text references. Nina. op 25-11-2005 18:00 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Dear Nina and James (and all), > > Reading "The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola > Gunaratana (Wheel No. 351/353) will be good for both of you. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html > For Nina for understanding that formal samatha meditation within the > frame of reference in which panna and sila have (had) the attention of > the meditator, is a good means. > For James for understanding that our path is not samatha alone, that > the Noble Eightfold Path has seven more aspects. 52826 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? Without typo jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Joop > > I would prefer that the anatta is not in the extreme end because it > occurs in every moment Hallo Ken O, I did mean to say You are talking about anicca, not about anatta, in your message Anicca is difficult, much more difficult then anatta! Added to my drawing: Extreme W --------------------------------------Extreme I ......DO...Kamma......Two r anicca...Nama-rupa...Anatta Metta Joop 52827 From: "Leo" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases leoaive Hi I was searching for Bases and I was going to www.accesstoinsight.org So I you can inter the word "Bases" at that web site and it will give you some suttas. I guess I should make a better research on that. I believe that bases are making the path and give you vision. With metta Leo 52828 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. philofillet Hi Nina >Akusala is reality, but > sati cannot be conascent with akusala citta; sati can arise afterwards and > be aware of its characteristic. Akusala has arisen, if it had not arisen it > could not appear. Akusala arises and falls away, but in a following process > there can be kusala cittas accompanied by sati which is aware of the > characteristic of that akusala dhamma that arises and falls away very > rapidly; Aware of the characterisic that *has fallen* away? I wonder how this can be. Is this similar to the topic that I heard in one of the talks - when a sense door object has fallen away, it has fallen away, but somehow it is still there, copied or carried on or something, to be object of mind door process? Otherwise, it seems that if there is awareness of akusala that has fallen away, it is just thinking/remembering and I don't know how this could ever be direct awareness. Helpful in stemming the flow of akusala for a moment, yes, but direct awareness? > Question: At this moment I pay attention to it that this is dosa and that > lobha. > > Sujin: This is thinking, and when you know this, thinking will stop. I think it would just be more thinking that thinking has stopped. My gut feeling these days is that thinking never stops. Even vipasanna-nanas and jhanas and other sublime attainments are nothing more than a very refined, exquisitely refined, form of thinking. I know this is wrong but it's how I'm feeling - there is beginner's doubt these days. You mentionned when you got back to India that you'd be posting something about thinking, thinking, thinking all the time. Has it been posted and I missed it? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Phil 52829 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:33pm Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases philofillet Hi Leo > I was searching for Bases and I was going to > www.accesstoinsight.org > So I you can inter the word "Bases" at that web site and it will give > you some suttas. I guess I should make a better research on that. > I believe that bases are making the path and give you vision. I know what you mean. I was caught about a year ago by the term "triple investigator" that is used in the sutta you referred to the other day. (different translation, I think.) And since then I have been following that, absorbed in suttas devoted to ayatanas (sense bases) dhatus (elements) and d.o (not there yet.) On the other hand, I'm aware of how much lobha (greed) there is in this pursuit. I will GET IT and possess the wisdom of the Buddha. It's a bit of a joke, really. In a way it's like reading and reflecting on the summary of a major league baseball game (one of my obsessions) and thinking that I have the skill of the players described in the summary. I think we're just about as far away from the wisdom of the Buddha and the disciples described in the suttas as I am far away in skill from my favourite baseball players, though of course there is the potential to get there someday, if we are very patient. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't open ourselves to that wisdom, but but unless we remember where we are and where the Buddha and his noble disciples are/were on the path, we'll be fooling ourselves. In my case I'm aware that my study is often motivated by fear - fear of getting old, fear of getting sick, fear of dying, fear of my loved ones dying. This fear motivates me to consume suttas in the desire that the wisdom in them will allow me to transcend my fear. And of course it is only the Buddha's wisdom that can allow us to transcend suffering. But the Buddha also said that fear is one of the four factors that takes us off the path (in a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya, I forget which one - fear, along with greed, hatred and ignorance, if I recall correctly.) I'm not saying that you are motivated by fear. I just read your e-mail and am telling you about my situation in this way because I am interested in the seven bases as well. Phil p.s people always say that it is wholesome chanda (zeal) that overrides lobha. I think that is wishful thinking. The "always" part, that is. There can be wholesome chanda, of course. But I think it's rarer than people would like to believe, need to believe. 52830 From: connie Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: my own words nichiconn Dear Htoo, Htoo: Please do not ask which Amara, :-)). Connie: LOL - my admirable, learned friend(S)! may we all be inclined to grow straight in Dhamma, abandoning crooked postures in body, speech and mind. peace, con-seated one ;) ps. jhaanikas have lost their senses. 52831 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, Ideally, we are all here to discuss Dhamma, not to convince others, "You are wrong and I am right." However, the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry, and I occasionally display impatience towards other people's opinions. But please don't my failings get you down. :-) ----------------------- M: > If you have viriya you will achieve jhana. The Buddha said we are like craftsmen making swords. We take our minds and rid it of impurities. Jhana is like a heavy hammer in the process, striking at the metal to do just that. If someone can be so blinded and blinkered that they disregard evidence in the suttas, and think that everyone else in the world is wrong apart from their little cirlce, what is that except foolishness, subtle intellectual conceit and wrong view? ----------------------- Leaving aside my preferred interpretation of the texts (which is that no one genuinely practises jhana in this day and age) I wonder how many people attained jhana in ancient times. In the Visuddhimagga at XII 8, we read, "Now the kasina preliminary work is difficult for a beginner, and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." I am not sure what is meant by, "one in a hundred or a thousand." I assume it means "one in somewhere between a hundred and a thousand." Also, I think this is referring to a hundred or a thousand *of those who aspire to jhana* - not of the population in general. The Visuddhimagga continues; "The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work, and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." KH: As I read this, the number of aspiring jhana students has already been reduced to one in ten thousand or a million, and jhana has still not been reached. Vis: "To extend the sign when it has arisen and reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." KH: So, of those students who set out to develop jhana, one in a million or one in a thousand million (or one in somewhere between a million and a thousand million) actually attain it. And that was said in ancient times - when there was a comparatively large number people with 'only a little dust in their eyes' and with any reasonable hope to attaining jhana. Corrections welcome. Ken H 52832 From: "smallchap" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Nina (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > op 25-11-2005 05:05 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > > >> N: I said this out of concern that people take the false jhana for > > the right > >> one. A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are real > > dangers > >> here. > > > > S: How could we tell a false jhana from a real one? Could you describe > > real jhana in detail? (Well I know one is not in jhana when there is > > physical movement of his body/body parts.) > -------- > N: Paññaa can discern real jhana from false jhana which is wrong > concentration. > > First a quote from Kh Sujin's Survey (taken from Rob K's web: > ) > > > Samatha or tranquil meditation is not developed merely by concentration, > samådhi. Samådhi is the dhamma which focusses on an object, it is ekaggatå > cetasika accompanying each citta. When the citta is absorbed in an object > for a long time, the characteristic of ekaggatå cetasika manifests itself as > samådhi, concentration. It is firmly fixed on only one object. Ekaggatå > cetasika which accompanies akusala citta is wrong concentration, > micchå-samådhi, and ekaggatå cetasika which accompanies kusala citta is > right concentration, sammå-samådhi. > If one tries to concentrate by focussing the citta for a long time on one > object, and the citta is not accompanied by paññå, there is wrong > concentration, micchå-samådhi. At such moments one is attached to having the > citta firmly fixed on one object. If there is no paññå one cannot know the > difference between lobha-múla-citta, citta rooted in attachment, and kusala > citta. Lobha-múla-citta and kåmåvacara kusala citta (of the sense sphere) > can be accompanied by the same types of feeling. Of the eight types of > lobha-múla-citta, four are accompanied by indifferent feeling and four by > pleasant feeling. As to kåmåvacara kusala citta, four types are accompanied > by indifferent feeling and four by pleasant feeling. In the case of > indifferent feeling the citta is neither happy nor unhappy, it is > undisturbed, and in the case of pleasant feeling the citta is happy and > delighted. When indifferent feeling or pleasant feeling arises, it is > difficult to know whether there is lobha-múla-citta or kusala citta. ... > > Generally, people who try to concentrate on an object want the citta to be > without disturbance, anxiety or worry about different matters and events in > their daily life. They are satisfied if the citta can be firmly fixed on an > object and they do not realize that at the moments they wish to concentrate > on a specific subject there is no mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå. > The development of samatha is actually the development of mahå- kusala > accompanied by paññå. Someone who wants to develop samatha must have paññå > which sees the danger of akusala, of lobha and dosa, aversion. He should not > merely see the disadvantage of dosa, arising when there is worry or anxiety. > If one does not know one¹s defilements and one does not see the danger of > lobha, one will not be able to develop samatha. The person who develops > samatha should be truthful, he should have paññå which sees the danger of > lobha; he should have sati-sampajaññå : he should know the difference > between lobha-múla-citta and mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå. Then he > can develop mahå-kusala accompanied by paññå, so that there are no longer > akusala cittas arising in between the moments of developing calm, and he can > reach the degree of samådhi which is access concentration, upacåra samådhi, > and attainment concentration, appanå samådhi, arising at the moment of > jhåna, absorption.> end quote. > > I can give an example. If one wants to develop metta, it is very difficult > to see the difference between true metta and selfish affection, which is the > near enemy of metta. Akusala citta follows kusala citta so closely and they > succeed one another extremely rapidly. We are likely to mislead ourselves > time and again. We are likely to take for kusala what is akusala. > From the example above, cited in Survey, we see that this also happens with > regard to feeling. One may feel very calm, free from disturbance, but what > is this? It is paññaa that can know the truth. > We talked long ago about pittfalls, do you remember? If one is aware of them > it is already helpful. > Those who develop samatha must see the danger of akusala and the value of > detachment from sense objects. > Even seeing now is followed very closely by attachment, but we do not notice > this. Unknowingly we are attached to all that we experience through the > senses. It may be attachment accompanied by indifferent feeling. It is pañña > that can discern such moments and it is pañña that leads to detachment. > **** S: Thank you very much for quoting Kh Sujin' Survey on Paramatha Dhammas and providing the link. What Kh Sujin said on right concentration is in agreement with what the Buddha defines as noble right concentration, i.e. right concentration accompanying the other seven factors, with right view as forerunner. Does it mean that one should not practise conventional samadhi? If so, how do we reconcile this with what Ven. Ananda said in Yuganaddha Sutta: "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. ..............." For the sake of discussion, what do you think, is there more akusala citta in one who is engaged in mundane concentration than one who is planning a trip to India? Yes, I remember we talked about the pitfalls of sankharupekkha nana. I consider the pitfalls a minor delay (if one falls into it) as at this level all obstaclea to Magga and Phala are cleared. smallchap 52833 From: connie Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:20pm Subject: Re: my own words nichiconn dear Sukin, anticipation! waiting for "Survey" like it's Christmas. Thank you so much. "For giving, gladness is the condition and non-greed is the cause" - Pitaka Disclosure on the first line of Ud. 85: . How are your old boxes of books, btw, have you gotten around to reading any of them? I have one open here now (Illustrator) that is supposed to "present in a sort of simplified and summary version the practical (if that is the right word) parts of the main Commentarial System". Should be interesting even though "Abhidhamma virtually makes no appearance at all, and the space devoted to Understanding (or Insight (vipassanaa)) is proportionately very brief, the subject being quite simply treated. The weight of final emphasis laid by the text on Lovingkindness as a basis for attaining the bliss of nibbaana is exploited in the Commentary." Might change my point of view/opinions a bit? Sukin: I thought about those with the understanding of the danger of sense objects and how without the Buddha's Teachings, the best that can be done is the practice of samatha leading to jhana. But because their understanding is not of conditioned realities and the anicca, dukkha and anatta of these, the bhava tanha was in fact still the driving force behind their practice. Perhaps this is why, the moment a Brahma, even after millions of years of being in the realm, is reborn in the sensuous plane, he will immediately become drawn to sense objects? Connie: Hadn't thought of it before, but it makes sense to me! > understand directly, one element". Sukin: And this one has already fallen away. And `self' is slow, always coming in much later, thinking of catching the next one. Not knowing that even that has fallen away. In the end, self has only the shadows as object but thinks instead that it knows a reality. :-/ Connie: What a beautiful, haunting melody you're humming! thanks again, connie 52834 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > > M: :) > If someone can be so blinded and blinkered that they disregard > evidence in the suttas,and think that everyone else in the world is > wrong apart from their little cirlce, what is that except > foolishness, subtle intellectual conceit and wrong view? > > +++++++++++ Dear Mateesha, you wrote to Jon that http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52522 Mateesha: I genuinely believe that it is not useful to either one of us to discuss the dhamma in this rather adversarial atmosphere. At the very least it doesnt do my mind any good so I 'd rather not. If you really want to you might be able to see what im saying in the post. But going head to head just sends me in the opposite direction from where i want to go in this path, even though it might be culturally appropriate for you to approach it in that fashion. Thats not why im here. Once again, im sorry, but i rather not."" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am honestly trying to come to grips with the cultural differences you mentioned and why you found Jon's post offensive or any more 'adversarial' than what you write above? Other than that could you elaborate on your statement. Robertk 52835 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Defilement instead of compassion antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Nina and Group, I read about the following defilement in Wikipedia under "Schadenfreude": "Taken in a broader sense, it could apply to the feeling of being "blessed" because there are always people who are worse off than ourselves. Instead of compassion or pity for those less fortunate, we are thankful that it is they instead of us." Any Abhidhamma perspective appreciated. Thanks / Antony. 52836 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Robert K > > Happy to see you here again. > > > defining nama and rupa (namarupapariccheda nana) is an advanced > > degree of satipatthana - vipassana. When this insight is reached > > there is no idea of self at all, the world has changed, gone. > > I am a bit confused about these stages of insight. Nina has > explained to me a bit, but it's water under the bridge, I'm afraid. > You say "advanced degree of satipatthana -vipassana" for defining > nama and rupa, but it is the first of the "tender insights" isn't > it? Are there "degrees of satipattha- vipassana" that are less > advanced? > > Also, what is the difference in degree, if it can be defined in > that way, between this namarupapariccheda and the first realization > of the path at which one becomes an ariyan? If as you say, the world > disappears, there is no self, at such moments, isn't it akin to > having insight of the degree of streamwinner? > >++++++++++ Dear Phil, Satipatthana comes in many degrees before the first stage of insight is reached. Now the sense doors cover over the minddoor- for example it seems that seeing is coniually occuring. But the moment of seeing is very brief and then there are many, many mind moments with no seeing. Really we live in a dark world lit up by occasional moments of light (it just doesn't seem that way due to ignorance). So now everything is very unclear. At the moments when namarupapariccheda occur the minddoor is apparent so it is very different from now. It must feel like the world has been turned over, for that very brief time and then it is back like usual - except that wisdom has seen things as they are- this is real understanding of the difference between nama and rupa- not merely thinking one knows the difference. Anatta too is clear because impossible to plan or make this happen, the processes of mind are so uncontrollable. And yet even this world shattering experience isn't enough to fully uproot wrong view. It remains like a virus in remission, hiding and weak but not fully killed- it takes more insight before it is finally gone at the first stage of enlightenment. Robertk 52837 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:30pm Subject: Re: Defilement instead of compassion christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina and Group, > > I read about the following defilement in Wikipedia > under "Schadenfreude": > > "Taken in a broader sense, it could apply to the feeling of > being "blessed" because there are always people who are worse off than > ourselves. Instead of compassion or pity for those less fortunate, we > are thankful that it is they instead of us." > > Any Abhidhamma perspective appreciated. > > Thanks / Antony. > Hello Antony, all, While we are waiting for Sarah or Nina's response - I think it is worth considering this Sutta (SN 22.49): "When any ascetics and brahmins, on the basis of feeling ... on the basis of perception ... on the basis of volitional formations ... on the basis of consciousness - which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change - regard themselves thus: 'I am superior', or 'I am equal', or 'I am inferior', what is that due to apart from not seeing things as they really are?" My understanding of Schadenfreude is that it means 'malicious glee or gloating'. This involves, I would think, comparing one's own situation with that of another. This would be similar to a form of conceit in Buddhism - thinking that there is another 'being', and comparing 'oneself' to that 'being'. According to the Theravada Teachings (Nyanatiloka), conceit is one of the 10 fetters binding to existence, one of the proclivities (s. anusaya) and defilements (s. kilesa) - and only vanishes completely at the entrance to Arahatship. In reality, according to the Buddha's teaching on Anatta - No Self, there is no ego identity to be found. metta, Chris 52838 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhatrue Hi Math, Math: Incredible. We keep getting mixed up! I do believe it is possible to go directly into arupa jhana. I'm just wondering why you said you thought that this was true as well. :) James: Oh, okay. I guess I read your message with the wrong emphasis and got the meaning mixed up. My bad. ;-)) So, why do I think that it is possible to go directly to arupa jhana without going through the material jhanas? Actually, I have a lot of reasons for believing this, but I will pull out the reason which probably has the most clout in this group: the Visuddhimagga explains that it is possible. The Visuddhimagga lists 40 meditation subjects and what each subject is capable of producing in terms of higher consciousness. The Visuddhimagga lists the four immaterial "states" as leading to the four immaterial "jhanas". Conversely, it lists other material kasinas which lead to the rupa jhanas. Now, if the rupa jhanas (specifically the fourth rupa jhana) were necessary to achieve the immaterial jhanas, the Visuddhimagga would not describe these meditation subjects in this way. The Visuddhimagga would explain that one needs to attain the fourth rupa jhana first and that that is the base from which to attain the immaterial jhanas. But it doesn't do that. It describes a simple process of going directly to the immaterial jhanas. This is one reason, the reason that would have the most clout in this group, but it isn't the only reason. I'm kinda pressed for time today, I agreeded to help some college students write a twenty page paper on business management ;-S , so I will just stop here and see how you respond (and others respond). Metta, James 52839 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 0:30am Subject: Samatha better then vipasana ? (Was: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Joop, Joop, first I'm going to start with your last statement and then go back to the beginning. You need to understand my perspective before I proceed. Joop: So my view (still) is: the best is doing vipassana and doing samatha; and combine this with the other six aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path. James: I know I keep making statements which shock and amaze you, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to make another one: The Buddha didn't teach vipassana meditation. Vipassana is a modern invention- and not a very effective one at that. The Buddha taught sati and jhana- he didn't teach vipassana. So what's the difference between sati and vipassana? Sati is mindfulness, vipassana is a strange mutation by trying to combine sati and jhana. And the end result isn't that vipassana is both sati and jhana (as probably intended): it is neither! It is an entirely different form of meditation that the Buddha didn't teach. When those in this group claim that the Buddha didn't teach meditation; that the suttas don't contain evidence of meditation; and that some modern meditation masters are doing people a great disservice—I think they have a good point!! If they are referring to modern vipassana practice, I completely agree with them! The Buddha didn't teach vipassana meditation and people should stop practicing it. Now, when this objection to the modern practices of meditation gets extended to all practices of meditation that is where I disagree with them. They should be trying to cultivate jhana and get their noses out of all those books! ;-)) Joop: To recap your evaluation of vipassana-meditation Mahasi-style: it's dangerous and the Buddha didn't teach it, it's contrary to sati. This latter remark amazes me: isn't 'sati mindfulness? James: Yes, sati is mindfulness, but sati isn't vipassana. Joop: From your Mahasi-quote you can understand that vipassana is not always agreable but that's not the same as dangerous. James: Well, this is just a semantic issue. It depends on how you define "dangerous". Joop: Further: I have never heart vipassana-meditators start without access concentration and nobody (even those with long retreats) experienced dangerous experiences. James: I do not accept this concept of "access concentration". The Buddha didn't teach "access concentration" and it is simply a bastardization of jhana. Joop: There are sometimes experiences of fear, misery, disgust but that are only short periods. James: Well, short or not, there is no reason to have to experience fear, misery, disgust at all. Jhana is peaceful throughout and the Buddha described mindfulness as helpful everywhere-- where did he describe that one must go through such negative reactions? He didn't. Not only that, these periods that Mahasi described are not short. What you are describing is some of the initial junk that comes up when one begins to explore his or her mind. Once you get past that, and try to fight the dragon of dukkha directly without a shield or sword (jhana), it isn't pretty and it isn't quick. Metta, James 52840 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Leaving aside my preferred interpretation of the texts (which is that > no one genuinely practises jhana in this day and age) I wonder how > many people attained jhana in ancient times. > > In the Visuddhimagga at XII 8, we read, "Now the kasina preliminary > work is difficult for a beginner, and only one in a hundred or a > thousand can do it." James: Only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it?? So which is it? One hundred or one thousand? Buddhaghosa should have taken a statistics class! Do you realize what a big difference there is between the number: 100 and the number: 1000??? This extrapolation by Buddhaghosa is pointless and useless. Metta, James 52841 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhatrue Hi Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > I am honestly trying to come to grips with the cultural differences > you mentioned and why you found Jon's post offensive or any > more 'adversarial' than what you write above? > > Other than that could you elaborate on your statement. > Robertk > Math can respond for himself, but I will give you my outsider input. I also found Jon's reply adversarial. Math simply revealed that he had achieved jhana to make his point that it wasn't impossible in this day and age. Jon responded with accusing Math of "trying to pull rank on him". Excuse me?? Now, it was said as a joke but it wasn't funny and it wasn't really a joke. Jon was trying to belittle Math, to gain control and superiority over him. If that's not adversarial I don't know what is. Metta, James 52842 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > Math can respond for himself, but I will give you my outsider input. > I also found Jon's reply adversarial. Math simply revealed that he > had achieved jhana to make his point that it wasn't impossible in this > day and age. Jon responded with accusing Math of "trying to pull rank > on him". Excuse me?? Now, it was said as a joke but it wasn't funny > and it wasn't really a joke. Jon was trying to belittle Math, to gain > control and superiority over him. If that's not adversarial I don't > know what is. > >+++++++++++++++++ Dear James and Mateesha, Ok my outsider perspective is that I didn't think Jon"s post was so bad but if that is the way Mateesha took it ( did you M?)then it explains why he is so upset. Going back to the earlier post: Mateesha: :) If you have viriya you will achieve jhana. The Buddha said we are like craftsmen making swords. We take our minds and rid it of impurities. Jhana is like a heavy hammer in the process, striking at the metal to do just that. If someone can be so blinded and blinkered that they disregard evidence in the suttas,and think that everyone else in the world is wrong apart from their little cirlce, what is that except foolishness, subtle intellectual conceit and wrong view?""endquoteMateesha .... Dan Dalthorp said about viriya in his unique way: "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." WRONG effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- cittani. It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment and understanding. `endquote by Dan. And it is well explained in the Theravada (please ask for references if you doubt this)how concentration states can be very calm and tranquil but still not be skilful - in fact they may be akusala, lobha, pure attachment. They look very much like the skilful ones,but only developed understanding can know which is which. Thus if on dsg some members do emphasize understanding and how careful we have to be when evaluating mindstates, then this is surely a long tradition in Theravada, and perhaps other members can show some tolerance. Jon explained "It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the defilements that are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the development of insight. It is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about which we have relatively very little idea -- that are the major hindrances. The development of the path might be a lot easier if it was a matter of somehow dealing with more obvious kilesa."""endquote Robertk 52843 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Nina: I said this out of concern that people take the false jhana > for the right one. > > James: What do you mean by false jhana and right jhana? I only know > of jhana with right view and jhana with wrong view. The first type > can lead to enlightenment and the second type leads to rebirth in > the higher realms. > > Nina: A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are > real dangers here. > > James: What "dangers" are you referring to? > +++++++++++++++++ Dear James, Here is a excerpt from an article by a monk. I am not sure if you can find it on the web. """Access & Fixed Concentration Dhamma talk by Venerable Sujivo, Kota Tinggi, January 1993 Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara Depending on how you use it, jhana can refer to different things. Just as when you say concentration, you can have wrong concentration and right concentration. It is still concentration. It refers to different experiences. First we go into the general meaning of samatha concentration and how it occurs, as mentioned in the text. Here samatha jhana can be divided into two types. One is upacara jhana or upacara samadhi, the other one is appana jhana or appana samadhi. In this usage, jhana and samadhi mean the same thing. Appana means fixed concentration, that means the mind becomes unified, one with the object. Upacara means access, that means close to the fixed concentration. We have to understand that upacara samadhi is very wide. There is a wide level of upacara, access concentration. .. in the process of developing concentration, after reaching upacara samadhi where the hindrances have been put aside, one still has to go much further in the concentration before attaining the actual absorption, samatha jhana which we call appana jhana. This upacara samadhi can last long. You can sit for hours. It seems that people can sit for days. But it is still only upacara samadhi. In samatha you get very peaceful and very good experiences. There is no doubt about that. One can never say anything bad about samatha meditations. Only that they have to be properly learned, otherwise it can give rise to some problems. At this level of upacara samadhi, because it is so peaceful and quiet, so happy and joyful, many things can happen. And because it is not so fixed like in appana (fixed concentration) it can sometimes lapse. Being so peaceful, it can lapse into sleep. For example, once when I was doing samatha the mind was very quiet and I knew I was sitting. I thought I had sat for five minutes only and was aware all the time, but when I turned to look at the clock it was already a few hours later. Either the sitting was very peaceful or that I could have fallen asleep. At times it's so peaceful and the mind so subtle that there is not much difference being aware or not being aware. It is just like you closing your eyes for a while only and already a few hours could have passed. In this type of samadhi it is very easy to slip off into sleep and you actually go into very, very deep sleep. And when you come out, if you're not careful, you may even think that it was nibbana. Because you may say it was cessation altogether, it was like you've gone to a void, there was nothing there. Or, you may think it was jhana, first absorption. But actually it was sleep. There is nothing wrong with sleep. Only when you start getting attached to it then problems come. Besides sleeping there are other things that can happen. For example, at times there may be very strong joy that makes you feel like you are floating. Lots of joy and lightness may envelope one's mind and body and make them seem to disappear. When you come back to your senses you may recall, 'Oh! You've gone to a very peaceful and blissful state'. That is not jhana. It is still a kind of upacara, a kind of being completely enveloped in joy or happiness. Again, if you're not careful, you can get attached to it as nibbana or as jhana. There is nothing wrong with that bliss or that peacefulness. It is only when the attachment arises that problems follow. And it is very easy to get attached to such things. In this access concentration for certain people, and certain types of meditation, a lot of nimittas arise. There arise what we call 'visions' or 'visualised images'. It may be things that you have seen before. It may be just nonsense. It may be, what they say, things from the past lives. It may be just fantasies. But usually the objects are quite clear because the mind is calm and peaceful. Especially in the beginning, they are very clear and nice. In fact some of them may be true. But inexperienced persons cannot differentiate so well as the concentration is not really deep yet. Little, subtle defilements quickly arise with visual images. And if you start to get attached to it: "I've psychic powers"; "I've divine eyes"; "I can see my past lives", "in my past life I was king of India", "in my past life I was emperor in China", then troubles arise. If you don't get attached, then they are just mental images that arise. There is nothing wrong with that, they will come and go. They may just be impressions from anywhere. But once attachment or fear arises, these images will not stop, they'll keep on continuing and continuing. Until finally you get total hallucinations.. Piti is joy or interest. Sukha is a very happy feeling. And ekaggata is one-pointedness, that means when the mind is as if one with the object. These mental factors which are present in the first jhana play an important part. But it does not mean that when you have these five factors you have the first jhana. Even if you don't have any concentration these five mental factors are already there. You must know what the five jhana factors are to understand the jhanas. You must know at least something about Abhidhamma before you can have a clearer idea. These five factors actually describe a type of consciousness, a type of mind. When you know what factors are present you know what jhana you are in. it will be clear which factors are stronger and which are weaker and have to disappear, or after emerging, through making of proper resolutions to reflect on the factors present. We will not go into this because it is not part of our topic. What I want is to give you a good idea of what access concentration and what actually fixed concentration is in what we call pure samatha jhana, when we talk about first, second, third and fourth jhana as samatha jhana. According to our experience it is important to have a certain degree of understanding. It is because of a lack of this type of understanding that wrong views arise. You find that in the Brahmajala Sutta, the discourse on wrong views, a large extent of wrong views do not come through thinking or philosophies, they come from meditative experiences. Because people hold on to their meditative experiences as something which is true and good but which in reality is very false, it gives rise to many types of wrong views. , When people are practising meditation and everybody starts saying, "I've got first jhana, second jhana, third jhana, fourth jhana, this magga-phala, that magga-phala", we don't say that they are wrong because we don't really know what their experiences are, but the fact that they are saying all these things so easily and so happily makes it obvious that there are attachments. And you can see sometimes when they say it, they are very proud of it. If they are actually attached to wrong views it is even worse. We hope that this will not happen among the Buddhists here. If a person has really gone through all these practices he will know that it is not easy to know whether somebody has this jhana or that jhana, this magga-phala or that magga-phala. One would be very reserved in making such statements. Therefore, if somebody says all these things too freely, we don't say directly that he is wrong, we say, be very careful with him, you may go into wrong views.""end quote Bhikkhu. robertk 52844 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:35am Subject: Samatha better then vipassana ? (Was: Re: Hi All jwromeijn Hallo James Some remarks, with the diminishing illusion that we can agree with the motto this thread started: "Samatha and Vipassaná in Harmony by Ajahn Chandako" Joop (yesterday): From your Mahasi-quote you can understand that vipassana is not always agreable but that's not the same as dangerous. James: Well, this is just a semantic issue. It depends on how you define "dangerous". Joop (now): I nominate this remark for the joke of the day. To me there is a big difference between 'not agreable' and 'dangerous'. This is the semantic used by Lewis Caroll. James: "Yes, sati is mindfulness, but sati isn't vipassana." Joop: I have learned to be more mindful in daily life (for exemple when anger arisis in me) as a result of my vipassana-meditation. May I ask you: how do you be mindful in daily life? James: "The Buddha didn't teach vipassana meditation." Joop: I knew that already. Maybe you did not read my discussion with Nina some weeks ago about 'Modern Theravada'. My statement is that vipassana aka insight-meditation is a adaptation of the old teachings to modern times; in #52382 I made several points about Theravada in the future. James: "Once you … try to fight the dragon of dukkha directly without a shield or sword (jhana), it isn't pretty and it isn't quick" Joop: There is no dragon, I just know 'dukkha' is a fact of life. And I prefer to live without a sword, using my mindfulnes (and some bread every day) is enough. And 'quick', what do you mean with 'quick', are you in a hurry, James? To use the metaphore I used to Sarah: I'm climbing the mountain, in a quiet tempo, hardly ever looking to the top of the mountain, but looking to points some hundred meter behind me. And where I arrive at the end (of my life) does not really interest me. A final point, a pitty you did not react to my remark "Samatha-object are concepts; vipassana objects are realities (dhammas)." This is a quote from the ebook ' Essentials of Insight' by Venerable Sujiva and it was an eye-opener to me, below a longer quote from it. Not trying to convince you (au contraire, I'm afraid), but to give information to anybody interested in the relation between 'right mindfulnes' and 'right concentration'. Metta Joop (Sujiva; from chapter 12, page 145 e.v.) TWO DIFFERENT PATHS The path you are going to take depends on whether you emphasise concentration or mindfulness. Concentration is holding the mind to the object. Mindfulness is observing the nature of the object carefully. Herein lies the difference. Let's take the example of holding a mirror up to your face. When you hold the mirror to your face and you can look into it for a long time, that is concentration—holding the mind to an object. If you keep on holding your mind to an object and emphasise more on concentration, your meditation will proceed or develop onto the path of tranquillity meditation, which goes into deep states of concentration On the other hand, when you hold the mind to the object and you observe carefully the features that are found in the mirror, for example the long nose, moustache, buck teeth, bald head and so forth, you realise that this is the face of a demon. You ask, "This is the face of what? Of a human being?" This means you have observed carefully, you take note of the nature of all the features of the face in the mirror. That is mindfulness. When you have taken in all the details and you can understand what it means—the essence of it, the mindfulness becomes wisdom. When you emphasise on mindfulness, and you observe with careful mindfulness the nature of the object, all the different things that occur there, the processes there, the mind will progress or proceed in the way of insight or vipassana. The two different paths you can take become clear when we use the example of anapanasati. Some people do anapanasati by counting the in and out breaths at the nose tip and concentrate on that. The mind becomes very peaceful. As the concentration deepens, you may see or feel the point of contact there as if of very soft cotton wool. You continue to watch it more carefully with some mindfulness but with more emphasis on concentration. You will stay with it for a long time because the mind is so peaceful and calm. So the mind goes into deep concentration and tranquillity meditation. The object, as the mind becomes deeper, will become subtler and more still. However, if one wishes to proceed to vipassana from there, it is not just a matter of keeping the mind still. You have to push the mind to note very clearly all the sensations that occur at the nose- tip. In which case, you will see many processes and changes, especially those relating to the heat element at the nose-tip, arising and disappearing. (from chapter 13, page 162 e.v.) SAMATHA AND VIPASSANA Now that you know that right concentration is concentration with mindfulness and wrong concentration is concentration without mindfulness, let us go on to understand the difference between samatha and vipassana. The word samatha by itself means tranquillity, and vipassana means insight or knowledge. When we refer to just samatha or vipassana, what we generally mean is right concentration. This means the factor of one-pointedness of mind has to arise with mindfulness. Not with obsession, not with anger, not with greed but with clear awareness. One-pointed clear awareness. In a single moment of experience there is this one- pointed clear awareness, and that we call samatha, tranquillity. In insight, the awareness is sharper, a more thorough awareness which can experience reality and gain understanding from it. You know very clearly what you are experiencing. You can explain, if you want to, the nature of the experience. SAMATHA BHAVANA AND VIPASSANA BHAVANA The phrases samatha bhavana (calm cultivation or meditation), or vipassana bhavana (insight cultivation or meditation) do not refer to one moment of time. They refer to a series of experiences over a period of time. This also means a series of results. Because of the continuity, developed states of mind arise. This means if you develop samatha bhavana, deep states of concentration arise. We call them absorptions or jhanas. In developing vipassana bhavana, deep states of knowledge or understanding arise. We call them insight knowledges or ñanas. There are similarities between the experience of samatha and vipassana bhavana. Although certain experiences are similar, the important thing to consider is the direction in which you are going, or which of the two types of meditation you are progressing to. When either of these two meditations are further developed, experiences peculiar to that respective type of meditation will arise more frequently and more distinctly. With the help of some knowledge about samatha and vipassana experiences we can understand the nature of these two types of meditation and we can also understand how far we have progressed in each. This is important, because when developing this concentration or insight, we should have a clear picture of where we are going. Otherwise wrong understanding, wrong views, blunders and unnecessary delays may occur and cause a lot of suffering. It is not so easy to tell in which track you are advancing, especially for beginners. But this is so too for more advanced meditators. The beginner has to grasp the basic techniques. Only when they are understood, then the principles behind the practice and instructions are understood, and one can be more confident in going further to get the deeper experiences. THE PROGRESSION IN SAMATHA BHAVANA Here is a more detailed description differentiating the nature of samatha and vipassana bhavana. The object in samatha meditations is a concept. An idea. And the concentration involved will be either access or fixed. There are certain types of samatha meditation of which the objects are very clear-cut. Take for example the visualization techniques, like the colour kasinas. You visualize light. You visualize colours. Sometimes people go so far as to visualize images like Buddhas, bodhisattas, deities and so on. These are very clear-cut samatha objects because they are concepts. You try to create in your mind, with your eyes closed, a circle of light. When the concentration is strong, you can actually see, with your eyes closed, your mental creation as if it was a real light. Even when you open your eyes, and create the light, you can see it in front of you. You know very well that it is a creation of your mind. This is a very clear and simple example of a conceptual object. Other clear types of concentration are those that use words. Like mantras or recitations. It is very clear that these are called word concepts. You may think of what they mean, which is your idea, not your experience. These objects are thus created, thought out by yourself. Something like an imagination. The creation of these samatha objects begins with the preliminary practice. Take for example a light kasina. At first you see the actual light of the material disc that you put in front of you, with your eyes. This is called the preliminary image. Then you close your eyes, and try................................................................... .... to visualize the light. That is the visualized image called "grasped image." When this is done persistently and with mindfulness, then the mind become more and more cut off from other objects. After some time you do not hear anymore. Later on you even forget the shape and form of your body. All there is is the circle of light. When the concentration is not yet very strong, the circle of light might oscillate. It might have certain pictures inside. This shows that although you might think you are not thinking, the mind is still flickering and fluctuating. It will come to a point when the circle is completely pure and the light is very bright. Everything else is forgotten, the body, sounds, where you are, even who you are. You only know that the mind is concentrating on the light, one-pointed, not thinking about anything else. There may be a lot of joy, a lot of lightness, but nothing else. This stage is called upacara samadhi—access concentration. There comes a stage very close to absorption when the mind is very pure and the light is very bright and translucent like a glass, as if the mind is light and the light is the mind. This actually is the case because the light is a creation of the mind. This is called the "mirror image"—patibhaga nimitta. This occurs also when people visualize deities. Sometimes they visualize bodhisattas and similar objects. The image becomes glass-like. When they visualize the Buddha he also becomes transparent. Because of the strong concentration, the mind is as if it is the "Buddha" and "Buddha" is as if the mind. That is a very pure state of mind. So much so that you feel your body is in the Buddha image. Then the mind gets absorbed into it, the mind sinks into the nimitta. Through the study of the Abhidhamma, you can understand that this is the fixed concentration, called appana samadhi. This means that the mind is unified with the object. During this time there are no other thought processes occurring. Which means that at this time you are like completely asleep. You sink into a state like "not knowing anything." But when you emerge from the concentration you know that during the absorption the mind was very clear and it was all the time one with the object of concentration, the circle of light. In this samatha meditation the mind should becomes more and more calm, more and more serene, more and more peaceful, and the defilements go farther and farther away. These highly developed states in samatha are something like half sleeping and states deeper than sleeping. Except that you know you are not sleeping. For example in the early morning sittings the mind is very calm, and peaceful. Sometimes you may watch without any problem the "rising and falling" of the abdomen for one or two hours. But you cannot describe the rising and falling clearly moment by moment. All you can say is "I had a very calm, and peaceful meditation, the belly just went up and down, up and down, very soft, and very slow, a very wonderful sitting." Then you become attached to it. You want to get the same thing again. If you cannot get nice concentration you complain, "The meditation is difficult now, terrible, a lot of pain." To that I say, "Very good, very good." You ask, "How come?" After some time, when you think the meditation is not good I say, "Very good," to encourage you! If a person begins doing vipassana and feels so calm and peaceful, then it may not be a very good sign— attachment may arise. Some believe they have attained to sankharupekkha ñana, the knowledge of equanimity about formations, the know-ledge just before magga-phala—enlightenment. But they cannot describe as well as the earlier insight knowledges. This is getting stuck in concentration. We therefore have to be very careful how we proceed in our practice. ANAPANASATI Certain objects can be used for samatha or vipassana meditation. One is the anapana object, watching the in-breath at the nose tip. People frequently ask, "Is the concentration at the nose tip (anapana) a samatha or vipassana object?" It can be both. This depends on the nature of your attention. In the beginning when using the preliminary object it can be a samatha or vipassana object as it is mixed. When you start counting the breath it tends more towards the samatha object. But there is still the sensation of the breath to be felt. Vipassana objects, unlike samatha objects, are realities. They are not mind-created, that is you do not imagine them. They happen as a natural occurrence—as mental processes and material processes. When you see these processes clearer and clearer, of course the three characteristics of existence—anicca, dukkha and anatta—also become clearer. These are deeper aspects of the mental and material processes. So when you are doing anapanasati—concentration on the breath at the nose tip—and these mental and material processes, which are often experienced as sensations, are not clear, then the vipassana object is not building up. I have observed that in a large number of yogis, the mind is inclined towards samatha. Why? Because most people do not understand what vipassana is. Secondly, because vipassana is more difficult, more painful and the object is more turbulent. So naturally the mind would incline towards what is calm, what is peaceful and to what people usually understand as meditation, namely concentration. They think that when they can concentrate the mind on the object for a long time they have done a very good job. The breath object, when you can keep to it, is soft, pleasant, and therefore the mind inclines towards samatha. I am not saying samatha is bad. Samatha is good if you can do it. It is just that if you want to get insight knowledge you have to be able to differentiate. 52845 From: "matt roke" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:46am Subject: [dsg] vipassana or contemplation? mattroke Hi Phil, I hope you and Sarah don’t mind me butting in here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Phil : It's a difficult point, beyond me, but I was surprised that it takes >panna time to know the characteristic when there is awareness of it. I >thought panna and sati rose and fell away together to know the >characteristic. Does this panna that "takes time" relate to pariyatti and >panna that doesn't "take time" (ie is immediate and direct) relate to >patipatthi? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pariyatti is the learning about dhamma, which will lead to different degrees of conceptional wisdom. This wisdom takes time to grow. If it grows to understand that dhammas (realities that arise and fall away) must be known for their characteristics then there are conditions for panna (arising with the citta) to know those characteristics. Panna and sati arise with kusala cittas but if is only when there is understanding that realities must be known for their characteristics that panna will develop to know them. This conceptional wisdom conditions contemplation of the characteristics of dhammas, which can condition panna (arising with the citta) to know them. MattR 52846 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:41am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > Nina: A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are > > real dangers here. > > > > James: What "dangers" are you referring to? > > +++++++++++++++++ > Dear James, > Here is a excerpt from an article by a monk. I am not sure if you > can find it on the web. Thanks for this interesting article. Yeah, these are some very important issues which people should consider when practicing jhana. But, I don't think I would classify these possible problems as "dangerous". To me, something is dangerous if it has a seriously adverse reaction to a person's mind or body. This article describes: falling asleep, becoming attached to sublime states, and over-estimating attainments. I don't consider these "dangerous" (I fall asleep everyday; I am attached to a lot of things, what's one more? ;-)); and we all over-estimate ourselves at times), but these things are important to consider nevertheless. Metta, James 52847 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:49am Subject: Samatha better then vipassana ? (Was: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Joop, I don't like the overall tone of this post so I am not going to respond. Specifically, here are the phrases which I think are inappropriate: I nominate this remark for the joke of the day. May I ask you: how do you be mindful in daily life? And 'quick', what do you mean with 'quick', are you in a hurry, James? Not trying to convince you (au contraire, I'm afraid) Joop, I don't like the feeling of having to defend myself. And I can get very nasty when cornered. I think it's best if I just not respond- but at least to let you know why. Metta, James 52848 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana ashkenn2k Hi James > James: So? As I wrote, the Buddha achieved enlightenment while in > the fourth jhana. Do you dispute this fact? K: then how come Buddha teachers never become enlighted while Buddha become enlighted, maybe you like to tell me how. Ken O 52849 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? ashkenn2k Hi Joop I think I am talking about Anatta. Anatta is more difficult than anicca why because it takes anicca and dukkha to understand anatta. Anicca and Dukkha are already observed and understand by sages before Buddha, however it is the anatta doctrine that make Buddhism distinct and make enlightement possible. In fact anicca, anatta and dukkha are all characteristics of any citta. I always like this melody :-) Anicca is not hard to see because we can see it in our everyday life, however attachement to self makes it very difficult to observe anatta. If you tell anyone that their body is impermanent, they could accept it as they know everyone age and died but if you tell them that the body they have now does not belong to them, you could frighten the hell out of them :-) Cheers Ken O 52850 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: my own words htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Htoo: Please do not ask which Amara, :-)). > Connie: LOL - my admirable, learned friend(S)! may we all be inclined > to grow straight in Dhamma, abandoning crooked postures in body, speech > and mind. > peace, > con-seated one ;) > ps. jhaanikas have lost their senses. ------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, :-)). People smile. This is good. When Howard was asked he smiled. Also my admirable. Yes, well well-learnt. My crooked back has been straightened a bit with regard to friend. I said friend. That friend. Jhaanikas have lost their senses? With Metta, Htoo Naing 52851 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi, KenO & James & all - In a message dated 11/26/05 11:59:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Hi James > > >James: So? As I wrote, the Buddha achieved enlightenment while in > >the fourth jhana. Do you dispute this fact? > > K: then how come Buddha teachers never become enlighted while Buddha > become enlighted, maybe you like to tell me how. > > Ken O > > =========================== I recommend examining the following sutta at the ATI web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-019-tb0.html I see this sutta as presenting a rather complete program of practice based on combining right thought, right mindfulness, and right effort into a critical guarding of the senses that cultivates, seeds, and waters the mind, and leads that mind, now properly directed and inclined towards relinquishment, to the jhanas, and then, from the base of the 4th jhana, onwards to the arising of wisdom and to awakening. I find the most important part of this sutta to be what comes first, with its emphasis on right thought and right effort, reminiscent to me of the first lines of the Dhammapada: _____________________ Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. ____________________ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52852 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken O, James, and all - One more point I would like to make with regard to MN 19. In it the Buddha makes clear why he went to the jhanas, not relying only on the prior work (which some might call a dry-insight approach). What he says in that regard is the following: ________________________ If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed. __________________________ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52853 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:05am Subject: Samatha better then vipassana ? (Was: Re: Hi All jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > I don't like the overall tone of this post so I am not going to > respond. ... So be it Metta Joop 52854 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Joop > > I think I am talking about Anatta. Anatta is more difficult than > anicca ... Hallo Ken O I think it's possible that to you anatta is more difficult than anicca and to me anicca is more difficult than anatta. Maybe we have different accumulations. But the exemple which you use, complicates: "If you tell anyone that their body is impermanent, they could accept it …" 'Body' is a concept, better to take a ultimate reality as an example, 'rupas' are the most difficult: who to imagine how earth/hardness is impermanent? Metta Joop 52855 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi again, Ken O, James, and all - > > One more point I would like to make with regard to MN 19. In it the > Buddha makes clear why he went to the jhanas, not relying only on the prior work > (which some might call a dry-insight approach). What he says in that regard > is the following: > ________________________ > If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a > day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come > from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When > the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from > concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & > concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed. > __________________________ > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, all, Reading the notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi to this sutta: "The Bodhisatta's twofold division of thought occurred during his six-year struggle for enlightenment". MA states: "Excessive thinking and pondering leads to agitation. To tame and soften the mind, the Bodhisatta would enter a meditative attainment, then he would emerge from it and develop insight." metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 52856 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 575 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Samudaya or tanhaa or craving is the cause of suffering. There are things that should be taken into consideration. These things are origins of craving. They are 1. a)eye cakkhu pasada (eye-sensitivity) cakkhu vatthu (eye-base) cakkhu dvara (eye-door) b)visual object ruupa (visual object) vanna (colour) form (form/shape/figure) light c)eye-consciousness cakkhu vinnaana (eye-consciousness) sight-consciousness seeing-consciousness 2. a) ear (sota pasada/vatthu/dvaara) [ ear-sensitivity/base/door] b) auditory object (saddha/sound) c) ear-consciousness(sota vinnaana/sound-consciousness/hearing-con) 3. a) nose (ghaana pasaada/vatthu/dvaara) b) olfactory object (gandha/smell) c) nose-consciousness(ghaana vinnaa/smell-consciousness/smelling-con) 4. a) tongue (jivhaa pasaada/vatthu/dvaara) b) gustatory object (rasa/taste) c) tongue-consciousness (jivhaa vinnaana/taste-con/tasting-con) 5. a) body (kaaya pasada/vatthu/dvaara) b) tactile object (photthabbaa/touches_hardness,temperature,pressure) c) body-consciousness (kaaya vinnaana/body-cons/ touching-cons) 6. a) mana(mana ayatana / mano dvaara_ there is no mano pasaada/ vatthu) b) mental object (dhamma/object of thinking/thought-object) c) mind-consciousness (mano vinnaana/ mind-cons/thinking-cons) Moreover, there are more sources for craving. There are 10 groups that craving may be traced back. They are 1. eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind sensitivity (cakkhu, sota, ghaana, jivhaa, kaaya, mana _aayatana) 2. sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, dhamma (mind-object) (ruupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabbaa, dhammaa_ayatana) 3. eye-consciosuenss, ear-con, nose-con, tongue-con, body-c, mind-con (cakkhu, sota, ghaana, jivhaa, kaaya, mano_vinnaana) 4. eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-contact (cakkhusamphassa, sota, ghaana, jivhaa, kaaya, mano_ samphassa) 5. feeling-born-of-eye-contact,ear,nose,tongue,body,of-mind-contact (cakkhusamphassajaa vedana, sotasam-- vedana, ghaana, jiv,kaya,mano) 6. sight-perception, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought-perception (ruupasannaa,sadda-sannaa,gandha-san,rasa-san,photth-san,dhamma-san) 7. sight-volition, sound-,smell-, taste-, touch-,though-volition (rupasa~ncetana, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhammasa~ncetana) 8. sight-craving, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought-craving (rupa-tanha, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma-tanhaa) 9. sight-application, sound-ap,smell-ap,taste-ap,touch-ap,thought-ap (rupa-vitakka,sadda-vit,gandha-vit,rasa-vit,phott-vit,dhamma-vitt) 10. sight-sustension,sound-sus,smell-sus,taste-sus,touch-sus,thou-sus (rupa-vicaara, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma-vicaara) If craving have to arise it has to originate from these 10 groups of dhamma when these 10 dhamma are inappropriately attended or 'ayoniso manasikaara'. May you be able to attend to these 10 dhamma appropriately. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 52857 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Thanks, Chris! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/26/05 4:49:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > Hello Howard, all, > > Reading the notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi to this sutta: "The Bodhisatta's > twofold division of thought occurred during his six-year struggle > for enlightenment". > > MA states: "Excessive thinking and pondering leads to agitation. To > tame and soften the mind, the Bodhisatta would enter a meditative > attainment, then he would emerge from it and develop insight." > > metta > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52858 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) philofillet Hi Robert K Thanks for your feedback > Satipatthana comes in many degrees before the first stage of insight > is reached. Now the sense doors cover over the minddoor- for example > it seems that seeing is coniually occuring. But the moment of seeing > is very brief and then there are many, many mind moments with no > seeing. Ph: These "many mind moments" are all the thinking that goes on when we "see" and label people and things? Not seeing, just thinking. The moment of seeing is so brief and so much conceptualizing follows. It seems to me that rather than saying "sense doors cover over the minddoor" at such times, it is thinking, thinking, thinking that covers over the sense door. We are not aware of the moment of seeing visual object because there is so much thinking. These "many, many mind moments" - how are they different from the "minddoor" that we are unaware of? Mind moments must happen through the minddoor, but we are unaware of the minddoor? So it is the moment that we are aware of the minddoor that the "many, many mind moments" are occuring through that there can be a moment of insight? Sorry if that's a jumble. Such difficult notions to wrap one's head around. I will have to hear it hundreds or thousands of times until it begins to sink in... > Really we live in a dark world lit up by occasional moments > of light (it just doesn't seem that way due to ignorance). So now > everything is very unclear. > At the moments when namarupapariccheda occur the minddoor is > apparent so it is very different from now. It must feel like the > world has been turned over, for that very brief time and then it is > back like usual - except that wisdom has seen things as they are- > this is real understanding of the difference between nama and rupa- > not merely thinking one knows the difference. Ph: So though things have gone back to normal and we are again "seeing" (actuallly thinking about) people and things and taking them for realities again, the moment of insight has conditioned more to come, at some point, but not by trying to have it. If we try to have it, all we will get is more lobha accumulated. A few moments of sati, wealthy man, as the Venerable Dhammadaro (? Allan Driver?) put it. But we always want more, more, more. > Anatta too is clear because impossible to plan or make this happen, > the processes of mind are so uncontrollable. And yet even this world > shattering experience isn't enough to fully uproot wrong view. It > remains like a virus in remission, hiding and weak but not fully > killed- it takes more insight before it is finally gone at the first > stage of enlightenment. Ph: I see. Thanks, you explained that well. Phil > 52859 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:14pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi James, J: the Visuddhimagga > explains that it is possible. Fair enough! :) cheers Matheesha 52860 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana philofillet Hi Chris, Howard and all > > MA states: "Excessive thinking and pondering leads to agitation. To > > tame and soften the mind, the Bodhisatta would enter a meditative > > attainment, then he would emerge from it and develop insight." I find the best thing for agitation that has come from thinking and pondering is to do something to help someone. (In my case, teach English.) It takes my mind off my own self-absorption. And I think we have learned that there is always calm with kusala, so I guess that's why it's calming. Of course I can see that a meditative attainment, if there were conditions for such a thing, would be a more surefire way of having calm. Also, I would add that I am finding suttas in which the monks are told to "develop concentration" for it is necessary condition so that "things will become manisfest as they really are." (For example, SN 35:160) I still find it hard to understand how we can "develop" the concentration cetasika (ekaggata) that is a universal cetasika, arising with every citta, whether kusala or akusala. So I am tempted to think that to "develop" concentration, we must do something intentional like sitting and meditating. But when I do that (I do on occasion, out of curiosity) the "concentration" on the breath is calming but certainly not kusala, it is just longing for and thinking about concentration and calm. My guess is that for some people there must be conditions to sit and concentrate on the breath in a kusala way that conditions insight, but those conditions are not there for me. So will I sit and do akusala in the hope that it will suddenly swich to kusala? No, I'm not comfortable with that. (though I am very comfortable, physically, when doing it.) Phil 52861 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana or contemplation? philofillet Hi Matt Thanks for the feedback > Pariyatti is the learning about dhamma, which will lead to different > degrees of conceptional wisdom. Are the degrees explained in detail? This wisdom takes time to grow. > If it grows to understand that dhammas (realities that arise and > fall away) must be known for their characteristics then there are > conditions for panna (arising with the citta) to know those > characteristics. So the understanding that it is necessary to know characteristics of dhamma is in iteself a condition for panna? I have a strong sense these days that knowing dhammas as deeply as I can is all that really matters. Talk of meditation, or baseball, or work, or friends, or thinking about them, worrying about them, whatever - all that is lost in a moment of knowing a dhamma, even intellectually. The burden is laid down for a brief moment before the mind rushes in to reclaim its role as proliferator of concepts and the dome of lobha is re-established. "I can't see something and be someone at the same moment" I wrote once, and I think it is true. > Panna and sati arise with kusala cittas but if is only > when there is understanding that realities must be known for > their characteristics that panna will develop to know them. This > conceptional wisdom conditions contemplation of the > characteristics of dhammas, which can condition panna (arising > with the citta) to know them. This is encouraging. Thank you Matt. Please post more often! :) Phil 52862 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:47pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana matheesha333 Hi James, I believe the dangers of jhana are overestimated. I believe the dangers of vipassana are overestimated. The first one according to the rumour drives people mad and the next one, to suicide. :) So we are looking at a bleak future for buddhism ...if we dont consider the fact that walking down the road, drinking water and generally breathing also are very dangerous things and that someone no doubt has died from doing these things and could be potentially turned into rumours! Just because the Buddha taught it, doesnt mean it cant have its negetive effects, as all things in this world. But my experience has been that jhaanas are not addictive as people have made it out to be. We routinely train people in jhaana and vipassana. If people are adequately guided we find that there is no problem. Jhanas are difficult to reproduce every single day, so that suffering caused by craving for them becomes evident. So in long term practice, craving for them gets left behind naturally. Besides anyone with good samatha would find the hinderences suppressed, not increased. Samatha meditation in general seems to make mental illness worse (so can a lot of other things). But it wouldnt cause to mental illness. People, possibly with depression would be attracted to the dhamma. So I wouldnt be surprised that there would be suicide attempts, espceially with vipassana which can be harsh when truths are revealed, and when it is dry. metta Matheesha 52863 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - It seemed to me that you had found the answers to all your questions. But I am not so sure about what you meant by the following : > Joop: Still make question: P how to investigate them? > Do you want to know how to "investigate" a dhamma like dhatu (elements, properties)? There are suttas like MN 115 (the one you've already seen) and MN 140 Dhatu Vibhanga Sutta (which I like a lot) that explain how to "investigate" the elements. The word "investigate" is interesting. Of course, it is a Pali translation, but what is/are the Pali word/words that means/mean investigate? From my research of two online dictionaries (PTS and Metta.net) I have found some clues. Investigate = pariggahati; upaparikkhati; samannesita Pariggaha = taking up, seizing on, acquiring, acquisition. Upaparikkhati = to investigate, ascertain, test, examine. [I left the last word 'samannesita' for you to explore further on your own.] I hope you now know how to investigate. Regards, Tep ======== 52864 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:52pm Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes. Sumeru Strong buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I am sorry that some of my questions might have been confusing to you because of my own misunderstanding. For example, I asked: > >T: Further, how advanced would that "kind of knowledge" be, before it may lead you "to contemplate a form of practice designed to engender kusala so that awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising"? Why do you believe that would be a mistake? Tep: I think my error is in assuming that you would like to see kusala cittas arising most (or all) of the time. Yet, you were clever enough to give an answer that was pretty good in terms of logic, although it may not be practical. { :>)) >Jon: If we have not heard about the possibility of multiple moments of kusala and akusala citta interspersed with each other, we may think or assume that the only way for awareness/insight to arise would be to have kusala first, meaning that we should do something to calm the mind so as to increase the chance of having awareness/insight. This I believe would be a kind of wrong practice. This is the 'mistake' I was referring to. Tep: Yes, I clearly understand your philosophy, that's why you have rejected any "act" or "attempt" to "control" the outcomes. ................ > >Tep: But is there any hope when there is no concern? >Jon: As I see it, hope for immediate results is a problem; no such hope is not a problem -;)). Tep: I am now ready to be educated how to practice the Eightfold Path with the mind like yours that has no hope for right results, or no concern about anything, and still is able to make all the eight factors "right" (samma). Without a concern, how would you evaluate (or "review" progress) whether or not you have truly entered the Path (Stream), not just because you are dreaming or hallucinating that you have become a Stream-enterer? Regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > (snipped) > > T: How would you develop that kind of knowledge [knowledge of citta, multiple moments of citta, and mind-door processes]? > > J: I may not have made myself clear. I should perhaps have used the term 'information' rather than 'knowledge'. I was not talking about a > level of panna, but about just having heard this aspect of the teachings (and not rejecting it). > > I do not think it possible for me/us to verify such fine details by > direct knowledge, but we can at least consider whether what we have > heard is consistent with our experience. > (snipped) 52865 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) kenhowardau Hi Nina, A strange thing has happened: I copied one of your messages into Microsoft Word, but now that I am posting my reply, I find that your message has disappeared. (!) Unless I was dreaming, you wrote: --------------------------- N: > I just thought that there is another way of answering this question, applying what I heard in India. We may think of many people, but in the ultimate sense we are alone. When we are wondering, how many people follow this or that it is just thinking of people. Seeing is truly alone, it sees visible object. Saññaa remembers persons, that is thinking. --------------------------------- I realise the above understanding is essential. If it is not kept in mind while discussing Dhamma, then wrong view is bound to arise: We will have ideas of "people" who practice, and, while we are having such ideas, we will forget there are only dhammas. However, if we can keep ultimate reality in mind we can safely discuss conventional topics such as the various Dhamma teachers and the books they write. And we can ask ourselves. "How many of those teachers keep ultimate reality in mind while they are writing their books?" But the question remains; "Is it profitable to raise such questions?" And this reminds me of another topic from the Cooran weekend: "Do some ways of discussing Dhamma turn people off?" As you can imagine, this was asked with reference to some of my less tactful statements. :-) In reply, I said I discussed Dhamma in a way that helped me to understand. If I worried too much about accidentally offending people, I might not say anything at all. Coincidentally, we had just been discussing the 'Acrobat Sutta' in which one acrobat says, "We shall protect each other! By protecting others, we protect ourselves," and his wise apprentice says, "Not so master: we should protect ourselves! By protecting ourselves, we protect each other." (end paraphrase) So I am thinking; by discussing Dhamma in a way that best helps myself, I will help others. That's one way of rationalising it, anyway. :-) Ken H 52866 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) christine_fo... Hello KenH, Nina, all, Careful Nina :-) he's just trying to justify his behaviour - I can't remember what it was about exactly, but I clearly remember practising Noble Silence (with glares) for about half an hour with respect to KenH when round the discussion table at Cooran. It was probably something like not regarding "Ru-u-bb-ishh!!" or some similar, but Australian, adjective as a suitable rejoinder for a carefully thought out, well balanced, scintillatingly delivered and devastatingly unanswerable argument of mine. And, much worse, I believe he had the utter gall not to notice that I was 'silent'. I seem to remember one of the many differences of opinion occurred with regard to the status of the Commentaries vs the Tipitaka, and authenticity of the Jataka verses vs the Jataka Tales. You know ... just the usual. metta, and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > A strange thing has happened: I copied one of your messages into > Microsoft Word, but now that I am posting my reply, I find that your > message has disappeared. (!) Unless I was dreaming, you wrote: > > --------------------------- > N: > I just thought that there is another way of answering this > question, applying what I heard in India. > We may think of many people, but in the ultimate sense we are alone. > When we are wondering, how many people follow this or that it is just > thinking of people. > Seeing is truly alone, it sees visible object. Sañ±¡¡ remembers > persons, that is thinking. > --------------------------------- > > I realise the above understanding is essential. If it is not kept > in mind while discussing Dhamma, then wrong view is bound to arise: > We will have ideas of "people" who practice, and, while we are having > such ideas, we will forget there are only dhammas. > > However, if we can keep ultimate reality in mind we can safely > discuss conventional topics such as the various Dhamma teachers and > the books they write. And we can ask ourselves. "How many of those > teachers keep ultimate reality in mind while they are writing their > books?" > > But the question remains; "Is it profitable to raise such > questions?" And this reminds me of another topic from the Cooran > weekend: "Do some ways of discussing Dhamma turn people off?" > > As you can imagine, this was asked with reference to some of my less > tactful statements. :-) In reply, I said I discussed Dhamma in a way > that helped me to understand. If I worried too much about > accidentally offending people, I might not say anything at all. > > Coincidentally, we had just been discussing the 'Acrobat Sutta' in > which one acrobat says, "We shall protect each other! By protecting > others, we protect ourselves," and his wise apprentice says, "Not so > master: we should protect ourselves! By protecting ourselves, we > protect each other." (end paraphrase) So I am thinking; by > discussing Dhamma in a way that best helps myself, I will help > others. That's one way of rationalising it, anyway. :-) > > Ken H > 52867 From: connie Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Re: my own words nichiconn Dear Htoo, When I smiled, I was thinking you'd helped staighten my back, too. Thank you. Yes, jhaanikas have lost their senses, temporarily at least, but not their minds. And what a long 'temporary' it seems from here to think of arupabrahmas with no chance to hear the Dhamma or become sotapannas. peace, connie 52868 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > Hi again, Ken O, James, and all - > > > > One more point I would like to make with regard to MN 19. > In it the > > Buddha makes clear why he went to the jhanas, not relying only on > the prior work > > (which some might call a dry-insight approach). What he says in > that regard > > is the following: > > ________________________ > > If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... > even for a > > day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that > would come > > from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire > the body. When > > the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is > far from > > concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, > unified, & > > concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be > disturbed. > > __________________________ > > Hi Christine and Howard, It looked for a minute as if this sutta was saying that a tired or disturbed mind was a hindrance to vipassana. That would have supported notions of a preparatory practice. But, thanks to Christine and B. Bodhi, we are reminded that it is to *jhana* that a disturbed mind is a hindrance. The Bodhisatta was a jhana meditator, and so it was natural for him to put aside thoughts of Dhamma for a while and enter into jhana absorption. For dry insight workers, it is natural to put aside thoughts of Dhamma and go about their own daily business. Just as a jhana-and- insight meditator can momentarily emerge from jhana to know a jhana factor with insight, so too, a dry insight worker can momentarily know one of the dhammas (visible object etc.) that arise in his daily life. So, in a way, this sutta is another of those that tell us (and Bodhisattas) how to organise our lives - *from time to time* we should spend our days learning the Dhamma. Ken H > Hello Howard, all, > > Reading the notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi to this sutta: "The Bodhisatta's > twofold division of thought occurred during his six-year struggle > for enlightenment". > > MA states: "Excessive thinking and pondering leads to agitation. To > tame and soften the mind, the Bodhisatta would enter a meditative > attainment, then he would emerge from it and develop insight." > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 52869 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Chris) - In a message dated 11/26/05 11:07:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Christine and Howard, > > It looked for a minute as if this sutta was saying that a tired or > disturbed mind was a hindrance to vipassana. That would have > supported notions of a preparatory practice. But, thanks to Christine > and B. Bodhi, we are reminded that it is to *jhana* that a disturbed > mind is a hindrance. The Bodhisatta was a jhana meditator, and so it > was natural for him to put aside thoughts of Dhamma for a while and > enter into jhana absorption. > > For dry insight workers, it is natural to put aside thoughts of > Dhamma and go about their own daily business. Just as a jhana-and- > insight meditator can momentarily emerge from jhana to know a jhana > factor with insight, so too, a dry insight worker can momentarily > know one of the dhammas (visible object etc.) that arise in his daily > life. > > So, in a way, this sutta is another of those that tell us (and > Bodhisattas) how to organise our lives - *from time to time* we > should spend our days learning the Dhamma. > > Ken H > ========================== I'm really not certain that I am understanding you, Ken. But in *case* you are saying that this sutta does not support jhana as a crucial aspect of the move towards awakening, then I think that you couldn't be more off base. This sutta is perfectly clear. It gives a crystal clear picture of the path of practice, and very far from one-sided. And the reason that it gives for going to jhana is *exactly* that proceeding as indicated in the early part of the sutta is self-limiting due to the extreme bodily strain and resulting mental disturbance resulting from the effort being expended in such a "cold turkey" fashion. The initial work of guarding the senses plants the seed and cultivates the soil, but moistness is still lacking! The soil is too "dry". Attaining jhana solves that problem! And that is why right concentration, explicitly defined elsewhere as the first 4 jhanas, is 1/8 of the eightfold noble path. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52870 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ! The soil is too "dry". > Attaining jhana solves that problem! And that is why right concentration, explicitly > defined elsewhere as the first 4 jhanas, is 1/8 of the eightfold noble path. > > With metta, > Howard > >______ Dear Howard and James, the mundane jhanas are right concentartion but they are not part of the eighfold path leading out of samsara - except as a support for the jhanalabhi. \ The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta Concentration "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. You see how there are differemnt types of sammasamadhi. Just the four mundane jhanas alone are even considered as wrong practice if they are misunderstood, they are accumlating samsara. James, notice that insight cannnot be developed while in jhana. Even the Buddha could not attain enligtenment while in Jhana RobertK 52871 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana ashkenn2k Hi Howard, that is a good sutta. However do you realise that in most of part of the sutta, the emphasis on right thinking that will result in right thought. There was no emphasis on tiredness of the body through thinking until the paragraph you quoted. Then there after you will realise the next paragraph it is still about right thinking and there is no further saying that thinking tire the body. Why did the next paragraph does not say it anymore ;-). For us to ponder upon. To me whether there is dry or wet method is not of any importance as eventually it is one accumulations that will determine what method we will attain enlightement, I more concern about the meaning of jhanas. If you read the sutta further, the earlier portion that emphasis on right thinking, in fact reinforce the statment below, because without right thoughts, the mind would not be withdrawn from sensuality, there wont be any ummuddled mindfulness <<"Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana:.....">> Then if you notice in the later on of the text, the jhanas here refer to those of the Noble Ones (suprmundanes ones) and not those you see practise by Buddha teachers (mundane ones). If the jhanas practise by his teachers are the correct one, he would have gain enlightment or his teachers would have been Nobles one before him. <> Cheers Ken O 52872 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? ashkenn2k Hi Joop I am glad that your understanding of the dhamma has deepen and I am impressed that you used words like accumulations which you did not use when I last converse with you. One of the way looking at anicca is looking at changes. An eg will be an ice will be hard but when melt it the earth element becomes "soft". Just like salt, boiling egg etc. Anyway I am those type if something cannot be explain or hard to grasp, I throw it to the deepest space, could not be bother. When conditions are right again, one realise the answer to them are jsut there :-). I realise glimpses to dhamma, comes in unexpected times. The other day when I was wearing my shoe, then a thought came that how life is impermanent, one cannot stop ones death, then I remember about the sutta about dukkha. Then another day, when I was alighting the bus, another thought came about anatta etc. Have fun because you never know when the right one is popping up - that is why Anatta is also so fun ;-)It is even more exciting than winning the weekly or monthly jackpot bc you never know when it is going to strike. Who knows in this life you may hit the dhamma jackpot and left only seven lives to go. Cheers Ken O 52873 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Crushing the Carrot ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Calming of the Urge for Delight ceases Suffering! Then the Venerable Migajala drew near to the Blessed One, paid his respects, sat down to one side, and asked him: Venerable Sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, then I might dwell alone, withdrawn, attentive, keen, and determined... Then the Blessed Buddha explained this: There are, Migajala, forms experiencable by the eye, sounds that are experiencable by the ear, odours experiencable by the nose, many tastes experiencable by the tongue, tactile objects experiencable by the body, and mental phenomena cognizable by the mind, that are quite attractive, charming, enjoyable, pleasing, enticing, and tantalizing. In anyone who seeks delight in them, welcomes them, remains holding on and glinging to them, delight arises! With the arising of this delight, I tell you, Migajala, there is the arising of suffering... !!! In anyone who does not seek delight in them, who does not welcome them, who does not remain holding on nor glinging to them, that delight ceases... With the ceasing of this delight, I tell you, Migajala, there is the instant cessation of suffering... Then Venerable Migajala, agreeing & rejoicing in what the Buddha had said, rose from his seat, & after having bowed for the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he left for the forest. There, alone, withdrawn, enthusiastic, devoted, & resolute, Venerable Migajala, realized it by direct experience, himself, in this very life, by entering & abiding in that unsurpassed goal of the Noble life for which men of good family rightly go forth from this dusty household life into homelessness. He directly knew: Destroyed is this rebirth, the Noble life has been lived, done is what had to be done, there is no state of being beyond this! Venerable Migajala thus became another of the arahats... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 35-7 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Delight: Migajala Sutta (63) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 52874 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:51am Subject: Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) buddhatrue Hi Ken H. (and Sarah and Jon), Ken H.,: And this reminds me of another topic from the Cooran weekend: "Do some ways of discussing Dhamma turn people off?" As you can imagine, this was asked with reference to some of my less tactful statements. :-) In reply, I said I discussed Dhamma in a way that helped me to understand. If I worried too much about accidentally offending people, I might not say anything at all. James: Good for you!! I respect this about you that you just say what is on your mind and don't worry about offending people. If people get offended, and you didn't intend to offend them, then that is their problem not yours. It's funny because the other day I was looking through my "sent mail" folder of my e-mail account to find an e-mail address I lost. I have my mail saved all the way back to Jan 1, 2004. When I was looking I kept noticing all kinds of e-mails sent to the moderators of this group (Sarah and Jon). Opening them, I saw that they were sent to respond to something that they thought was offensive, which I posted, and I didn't think it was offensive and didn't care who was offended. I counted those mails, not counting just conversational mails with Sarah, and I found that in a little less than two years time I have had to write 32 e-mails justifying myself to Sarah and Jon! Isn't that crazy?? Gosh, if I am so bad just kick me out of this group and be done with it! ;-)) Anyway, I say you keep posting the way you want. You are very radical, and have your own perspective, but that is endearing about you. Metta, James 52875 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:59am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Math (hope you don't mind me calling you that...) and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi James, > > I believe the dangers of jhana are overestimated. I believe the > dangers of vipassana are overestimated. The first one according to the > rumour drives people mad and the next one, to suicide. :) So we are > looking at a bleak future for buddhism ...if we dont consider the fact > that walking down the road, drinking water and generally breathing > also are very dangerous things and that someone no doubt has died from > doing these things and could be potentially turned into rumours! Just > because the Buddha taught it, doesnt mean it cant have its negetive > effects, as all things in this world. > > But my experience has been that jhaanas are not addictive as people > have made it out to be. We routinely train people in jhaana and > vipassana. If people are adequately guided we find that there is no > problem. Jhanas are difficult to reproduce every single day, so that > suffering caused by craving for them becomes evident. So in long term > practice, craving for them gets left behind naturally. Besides anyone > with good samatha would find the hinderences suppressed, not increased. > > Samatha meditation in general seems to make mental illness worse (so > can a lot of other things). But it wouldnt cause to mental illness. > People, possibly with depression would be attracted to the dhamma. So > I wouldnt be surprised that there would be suicide attempts, > espceially with vipassana which can be harsh when truths are revealed, > and when it is dry. > > metta > > Matheesha Very good points. I agree with all of them. To all- if you are concerned about the possible negative consequences of meditation you can read the section "Dangers to Meditation" from the article "Practical Advice for Meditators" by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch7 Metta, James 52876 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Robert K, Robert K.: James, notice that insight cannnot be developed while in jhana. Even the Buddha could not attain enligtenment while in Jhana James: I beg to differ: "So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. …"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x-tb0.html Metta, James 52877 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana philofillet Hi Robert K > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > four? This comes as good news to me. As I said in an earlier post today, I have seen that according to quite a few suttas concentration is a necessary precondition for "seeing things as they really are", but seeking jhanas is not an option for me. I'm glad to know that seeking jhanas is only one of the four developments of samadhi that can arise. If anyone has commentarial material related to this AN IV.41, would you kindly post a few excerpts? Thanks in advance. Phil 52878 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:48am Subject: The kamma of wrong speech (was Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) philofillet Hi James, and all > If > people get offended, and you didn't intend to offend them, then that > is their problem not yours. Technical question - if we commit akusala kamma such as wrong speech without intent, is it not still akusala kamma? Or a weaker form? I remember the story (sutta?) of the blind monk who stepped on insects but who was resolved from akusala kamma thanks to his blindness. And as for the intent that is involved when we commmit wrong speech, isn't it much subtler than thinking "ok now I'm going to say something - that's going to irritate him for sure but that's ok he deserves it." Isn't the intent at the moment of akusala cetana, so isn't there technically speaking always a moment of akusala intent that propels us commit wrong speech? For example, James, if you were to reread some of your posts that caused offense do you think you might find that there was intent to hurt buried in them, though you weren't aware of it at the time? Not criticizing you - I'm curious about technical aspects of kamma and whether intent is or is not much subtler than we usually think. Phil Phil 52879 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:38am Subject: The kamma of wrong speech (was Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: Technical question - if we commit akusala kamma such as wrong speech without intent, is it not still akusala kamma? James: This question isn't worded quite right: It should be: if we commit wrong speech without intent, is it still akusala kamma? And the answer is: no, it is not akusala kamma. Intent is what creates kamma, as the Buddha taught. Phil: I remember the story (sutta?) of the blind monk who stepped on insects but who was resolved from akusala kamma thanks to his blindness. James: Right, same thing. Phil: Isn't the intent at the moment of akusala cetana, so isn't there technically speaking always a moment of akusala intent that propels us commit wrong speech? James: There is a story in the Canon, I don't know the sutta, of a monk who was enlightened who spoke very harshly to his fellow monks- even calling them names and degrading them. These monks got upset and went to the Buddha to complain. The Buddha explained that this monk was not committing wrong speech because he had no intention to do harm- his speech was harsh because of habit formed from past accumulations. The story ends there but what do you think happened after that? Was this monk kicked out of the sangha? Did he have to get lectures periodically from the Buddha about right speech? Did he have to confess his sins of wrong speech to the sangha? I don't think so. In other words the Buddha told the monks: "That is the way he is. Deal with it- with wisdom." Phil: For example, James, if you were to reread some of your posts that caused offense do you think you might find that there was intent to hurt buried in them, though you weren't aware of it at the time? James: Now, this is getting rather personal, and that isn't such a good idea, but since you have asked in a genuine matter I will try to explain—and you can accept what I say or not. No, I do not intend to hurt anyone with my harsh speech. I speak harshly for two reasons: (1) My parents speak harshly so I picked up the habit; (2) I was verbally abused for several years so I picked up the habit to defend myself verbally. In all my life I have never had a physical fight without someone out of anger- even as a child. I don't want or like to hurt people. But, I will if I feel the need, defend myself. Maybe I go too far with that but you can't imagine the type of verbal abuse I went through. Imagine being told everyday, "You are a piece of sh*t!" "Get your head out of you're a*s!" "Someone should kick you're a*s!" "You're such a fu*cking pain in the a*s!", etc., etc., etc.—that would make anyone a bit overly defensive. For example, the recent post by Joop to me which I refused to reply to contained passive-aggressive comments. Because of my background, I only see aggressive comments and my instinct to defend myself kicks in. I could not respond to Joop without using harsh speech- and I knew that so I didn't respond. Some may look at my speech, know that I meditate, and see some sort of dissonance there. They may think, "Well, look at James! Obviously, meditation doesn't do a person really any good!" Of course they can think what they want but I know better. Meditation saved my life. If it wasn't for meditation I'm sure I would be dead today- just like my brother and sister. Phil: Not criticizing you - I'm curious about technical aspects of kamma and whether intent is or is not much subtler than we usually think. James: I know you weren't criticizing me so I felt comfortable to give you honest answers. I don't know my intent in absolutely all circumstances, but I do know that I am usually not intent on hurting other people. The Buddha said that even if a person was cutting you apart from limb to limb, if you had a mind of hate toward that person you would not be practicing his teachings. I agree with that. If someone was cutting me apart limb from limb I wouldn't hate him, but I would want to escape and protect myself. If I had to scream, hit him, or call him dirty names to protect myself, I would do that. But I wouldn't hate him at that moment. Metta, James 52880 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Robert K > > > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > > Samadhi Sutta > > Concentration > > > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > > four? > > > This comes as good news to me. As I said in an earlier post today, > I have seen that according to quite a few suttas concentration is a > necessary precondition for "seeing things as they really are", but > seeking jhanas is not an option for me. I'm glad to know that > seeking jhanas is only one of the four developments of samadhi that > can arise. James: Don't throw a party just yet! ;-)) I don't think that Robert K. has analyzed this sutta properly but I don't have access to my AN to check for myself. > > If anyone has commentarial material related to this AN IV.41, > would you kindly post a few excerpts? Thanks in advance. James: Yes, please let's look at the commentary for this sutta. > > Phil > Metta, James 52881 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana rjkjp1 Dear james, The suttas don't always give every explicit detail. In this sutta it is the Buddha left the 4th jhana to have the final insights. It is impossible to develop insight while in jhana because there are only repeating javana cittas taking a single object- no way for vipassana to arise while in jhana. RobertK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > Robert K.: James, notice that insight cannnot be developed while in > jhana. Even the Buddha could not attain enligtenment while in Jhana > > James: I beg to differ: > > "So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental > qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not > invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thought & > evaluation, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & > pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from > directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant > feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. > With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & > alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in > the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' But the pleasant feeling > that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the > abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of > elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: > purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But > the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind > or remain. > > …"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, > unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & > attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the > ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually > present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of > stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading > to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the > origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of > fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of > fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released > from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation > of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With > release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned > that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There > is nothing further for this world.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x- tb0.html > > Metta, > James > 52882 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear james, > The suttas don't always give every explicit detail. In this sutta it > is the Buddha left the 4th jhana to have the final insights. It is > impossible to develop insight while in jhana because there are only > repeating javana cittas taking a single object- no way for vipassana > to arise while in jhana. > > RobertK Hi Robert K., I know what you are saying, but your emphasis is wrong. The Buddha said: "…"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, > unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & > attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the > ending of the mental fermentations. So, even though he was no longer focusing on his kasina (in this case the in-and-out breath), he was still within the benefit/consequence of the fourth jhana. His mind was still attuned, in "the zone", to jhana. So, for all practical purposes, I believe it is okay to say that he was in the fourth jhana when he reached enlightenment. But, it seems like you are grasping at straws to justify not having to practice jhana. This may make you relieved and happy, as it has also done for Phil, but is it really of benefit?? Metta, James ps. I am home sick today, too full of cold medicine to meditate properly, so I appear to be a DSG stalker! ;-) 52883 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:22am Subject: Electronic version of the Kathavatthu sbillard2000 Greetings, I would like to know if you knew an online version of the Kathavatthu in english (or french) ? This book of Abhidhamma seems quite important concerning false views. BTW, for the few french readers here, I just finished my translation of the Brahmajala Sutta, available here : Metta, Sebastien 52884 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop - > ..Hallo Tep Thanks for your reaction Tep: " But I am not so sure about what you meant by the following : > Joop: Still make question: P how to investigate them? Do you want to know how to "investigate" a dhamma like dhatu (elements, properties)? Joop: Two typos in 8 words; I meant: ……..Still my question: how to investigate them? You understood my intention well (except the Pali-study, that I don't like but sometime have to). And I'm glad that what I already do (investigate) has a base in the Suttas The result of my 'research' was: Footnote 89 of Bhikkhu Bodhi about his translation of SN 22-57 "A triple investigator (tivdhupaparikkhi). This may be understood by way of the Dhatusamyutta (SN 14), the Salayatanasamyutta (SN 35), and the Nidanasamyutta (SN 12). See too MN no 115, where skill in the elements, sense bases, and dependent origination is explained in detail, augmented by the skill of knowing the possible and the impossible." (page 1066) My conclusion (perhaps to quick and with not enough scolarship) 'investigate' is important to do on my path, it has two dimensions: - a intellectual one: Dhamma-study (that's to me also: the history of Buddhism: when is a Sutta composed, why is the allinea about 'the triple investigator' together with the long discourse about 'seven cases' combined in one Sutta?) - a spiritual one: trying to get wisdom - a activity I define as 'contemplation' which is something else as formal meditation. On this moment I do not investigate 'dhatu', I have studied some monts rupa, as such and in relation to nama; and also the difference between nama-rupa and the duality body-mind in Western philosopy. Some people think to easy that that is the same duality. What I'm investigating now is the relation vipassana - samatha in (formal) meditation, not an original topic in DSG, but important to me. Metta Joop 52885 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/26/05 11:50:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >! The soil is too "dry". > >Attaining jhana solves that problem! And that is why right > concentration, explicitly > >defined elsewhere as the first 4 jhanas, is 1/8 of the eightfold > noble path. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > >______ > Dear Howard and James, > the mundane jhanas are right concentartion but they are not part of > the eighfold path leading out of samsara - except as a support for > the jhanalabhi. \ > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed > &pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now. There is > the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision. There is the > development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads > to mindfulness &alertness. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads to the ending of > the effluents. > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now? There is the > case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from > unskillful qualities -- enters &remains in the first jhana: rapture > &pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought &evaluation, he > enters &remains in the second jhana: rapture &pleasure born of > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he > remains in equanimity, mindful &alert, and physically sensitive to > pleasure. He enters &remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble > Ones declare, 'Equanimous &mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' > With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the earlier > disappearance of elation &distress -- he enters &remains in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither pleasure > nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when > developed &pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision? There is the > case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved > on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] > is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an > awareness open &unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is > the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to mindfulness &alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, > known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, > known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to > him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. > This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to mindfulness &alertness. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case > where a monk remains focused on arising &falling away with > reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is > form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, > such their origination, such their passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This > is the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, > leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration. > > > You see how there are differemnt types of sammasamadhi. > Just the four mundane jhanas alone are even considered as wrong > practice if they are misunderstood, they are accumlating samsara. > > James, notice that insight cannnot be developed while in jhana. Even > the Buddha could not attain enligtenment while in Jhana > RobertK > ======================== The "perverse beauty" of the Samadhi Sutta is that it is sufficiently lacking in explanation and conclusion as to make it usable to support almost any point one wishes to make, if one isn't too demanding. As I see it, it has little or no relevance to MN 19 or to your conclusion that it "Just the four mundane jhanas alone are even considered as wrong practice if they are misunderstood, they are accumulating samsara." MN 19 is a clear sutta, and it's description of the 1st four jhanas matches "the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now" described in the Samadhi Sutta, a stock description of the first 4 jhanas occurring throughout the sutta pitaka. The first four jhanas are exactly what they are. They, in and of themselves, do not lead to awakening. They are not the whole story. What makes the jhana attainment of MN 19 an attainment that leads to awakening is not that those jhanas are jhanas different from others, but that the attainment is not an isolated phenomenon but is one which is accomplished by a mind already seeded and cultivated by right intention, right thought, right mindfulness, and right effort, and which, when watered by the jhanas, is then capable of turning towards investigation of dhammas at the highest level, achieving wisdom and freedom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52886 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/27/05 2:07:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > that is a good sutta. However do you realise that in most of part of > the sutta, the emphasis on right thinking that will result in right > thought. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. In fact I made much of that! You may recall that I wrote the following: //////////////////////////////////// I find the most important part of this sutta to be what comes first, with its emphasis on right thought and right effort, reminiscent to me of the first lines of the Dhammapada: _____________________ Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. ____________________ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > There was no emphasis on tiredness of the body through > thinking until the paragraph you quoted. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, so what? ----------------------------------- Then there after you will> > realise the next paragraph it is still about right thinking and there > is no further saying that thinking tire the body. Why did the next > paragraph does not say it anymore ;-). For us to ponder upon. ---------------------------------- Howard: I fail to grasp a point of value here, Ken. The Buddha said in this sutta what he said. He introduced the jhanas at the relevant point and said what he needed to say. ------------------------------------- > > To me whether there is dry or wet method is not of any importance as > eventually it is one accumulations that will determine what method we > will attain enlightement, I more concern about the meaning of jhanas. --------------------------------------- Howard: I see MN 19 as making multiple points, all eminently worthwhile. ---------------------------------------- > > If you read the sutta further, the earlier portion that emphasis on > right thinking, in fact reinforce the statment below, because without > right thoughts, the mind would not be withdrawn from sensuality, > there wont be any ummuddled mindfulness --------------------------------------- Howard: Ken you are beating a dead horse. I agree with the importance of right thinking, and I emphasized that. --------------------------------------- > > <<"Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled > mindfulness established. My body was calm &unaroused, my mind > concentrated &single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn > from unskillful mental qualities, I entered &remained in the first > jhana:.....">> > > Then if you notice in the later on of the text, the jhanas here refer > to those of the Noble Ones (suprmundanes ones) and not those you see > practise by Buddha teachers (mundane ones). If the jhanas practise > by his teachers are the correct one, he would have gain enlightment > or his teachers would have been Nobles one before him. ----------------------------------------- Howard: The first 4 jhanas are what they are. They are like petrol/gas that one puts in the car or, better, like engine oil that one uses for lubrication. If one doesn't know how to drive or if the tires are flat or the steering column is broken, then no fuel and no lubricant will enable the trip to be made. ----------------------------------------- > > < alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered &remained in > the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of > pleasure &pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & > distress — I entered &remained in the fourth jhana: purity of > equanimity &mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.>> > > Cheers > > Ken O > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 52887 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:12am Subject: Re: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. matheesha333 Hi Phil, Ph: My gut feeling these days is that thinking never stops. Even > vipasanna-nanas and jhanas and other sublime attainments are nothing > more than a very refined, exquisitely refined, form of thinking. I > know this is wrong but it's how I'm feeling - there is beginner's > doubt these days. M: The way to stop thinking, is to concentrate fully on what you are trying to observe. metta Matheesha 52888 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. philofillet Hi Matheesha > Ph: My gut feeling these days is that thinking never stops. Even > > vipasanna-nanas and jhanas and other sublime attainments are nothing > > more than a very refined, exquisitely refined, form of thinking. I > > know this is wrong but it's how I'm feeling - there is beginner's > > doubt these days. > > M: The way to stop thinking, is to concentrate fully on what you are > trying to observe. But how do we know that "concentrating fully" is not just more thinking, very subtle, very refined, sublime even, but just more thinking, that we aren't mistaking refined thinking for something more profound? You teach meditation, I think, don't you? When a beginner sits, what is going on is surely not samma samadhi, right? The beginners sits, eager to have some sort of profound experience, thinking about some object, concentrating on it. That is not samma samadhi. When does it become samma samadhi, how does it become samma samadhi? By dint of having wrong concentration, and sticking with the wrong concentration, there is a breakthrough and it comes right concentration, it becomes sammasamadhi? I just don't see how that link happens. I just can't sit and concentrate on something and feel like it's kusala. There is such hunger for results, for comfort. Like these workshops where business people go and meditate to be more productive and peaceful or whatever. It just feels so cheap and fake when I try to sit and meditate, like a kind of farce. I hate to use this word to talk about Dhamma, but it feels like a kind of masturbation, very pleasant, very self pleasing. I shouldn't say anything more about samadhi - really it's way beyond me. You can see from the above that I don't know what I'm talking about. I would like to read commentarial material about that samadhi sutta that Robert K posted. Thanks for your feedback though, Matheesha. Phil 52889 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:22am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, James (Attn. Matheesha, Phil, Ken H, Jon, Steve, Htoo)- I am glad to see you back with lots of energy. Thank you so much for the Web link to Bhikkhu Khantipalo's meditation advice concerning the real purpose of meditation or "collectedness"(samadhi), its wrong practices, and how to do it right. I am interested to know how you and others think about the following "two streams in meditation". "As the mind is really a series of mental events which arise and pass away with incredible rapidity, each of which is a mind complete with supporting mental factors, so at the beginning this kind of mindfulness is really one "mindful" mind watching other "minds" (which are all within one's own mental continuity of course). One thereby develops the ability to look into the mind and to see where it has gone to. Has it gone to the past, present or future? Has it gone to materiality, or to feelings, or perhaps to cognitions, to volitional activities, or has it gone to consciousness? By this method of "Where has it gone?" the distracted mind slowly comes under the surveillance of the mindful mind, until mindfulness forms a strong foundation for further development. Considerable, though mundane, brilliance of mind is both needed and developed by this practice, which however should be balanced by the tranquillity of the absorptions. When the mind has become calm, one should start to practice for the absorptions (jhana), which will in their turn be the basis for the arising of real insight. This method is called "wisdom leading to calm." "Other methods suited to those whose minds are less disturbed initially, include the classic forty subjects of meditation (see Appendix); and these, together with more developed types of meditation practice, involve the use of a definite object for concentration. This may be one's own body or a part of it, a color or a picture, a word or a phrase, or abstract contemplation and so forth. All these methods involve some firm but gentle discipline of the mind, in that each time it strays away, it must be gently brought back again (by mindfulness, of course) to concentrate again on the chosen subject. "All these forty subjects are of this second type in which the calm gained from practice is then used for the arousing of wisdom. They are for this reason called "calm-leading-to-wisdom" methods, and are very important in the present distracted age. For their full explanation one should consult the Path of Purification (Visuddhi-magga, translation), although even the great learning in that book cannot replace the personal contact with a teacher. [endquote] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch7 Questions : Which of the two meditation streams is directed meditation, and which of them is undirected? Or, are both directed ? Do you think that collectedness (or concentration, samadhi) is necessary if you can start directly from Satipatthana and "right understanding" ? If you can, then there is no "Dangers to Meditation", right? Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Math (hope you don't mind me calling you that...) and all, > (snipped) > > Very good points. I agree with all of them. To all- if you are > concerned about the possible negative consequences of meditation you can read the section "Dangers to Meditation" from the > article "Practical Advice for Meditators" by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch7 > > Metta, > James > 52890 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! christine_fo... Hello Tep, Would it also be worth emailing the former Bhikkhu Khantipalo and asking his clarification? My understanding is that he disrobed years ago, is now a married layman and lives in North Queensland. I think he is not exclusively following the Theravada tradition, and runs a Non-sectarian Buddhist Centre - The Bodhi Citta Buddhist Centre. He now prefers to be known as Achariya Khantipalo. http://www.bodhicitta.org.au/index.htm metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Thank you so much for the Web link to Bhikkhu Khantipalo's meditation > advice concerning the real purpose of meditation > or "collectedness"(samadhi), its wrong practices, and how to do it right. > > I am interested to know how you and others think about the > following "two streams in meditation". > >>>snipped for brevity only<<< > Questions : > > Which of the two meditation streams is directed meditation, and which > of them is undirected? Or, are both directed ? > > Do you think that collectedness (or concentration, samadhi) is > necessary if you can start directly from Satipatthana and "right > understanding" ? If you can, then there is no "Dangers to Meditation", > right? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi Math (hope you don't mind me calling you that...) and all, > > > (snipped) > > > > Very good points. I agree with all of them. To all- if you are > > concerned about the possible negative consequences of meditation > you can read the section "Dangers to Meditation" from the > > article "Practical Advice for Meditators" by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch7 > > > > Metta, > > James > > > 52891 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 576 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Samudaya or tanhaa or craving is the cause of suffering. There are things that should be taken into consideration. These things are origins of craving. They are 1.eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind 2.colour, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought 3.eye-consciousness, ear-con,nose-con, tongue-con, body-con, mind-con 4.eye-contact, ear-cont, nose-cont, tongue-cont,body-cont,mind-cont 5.feeling-born-of-eye-contact, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind 6.colour-perception, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought-perception 7.colour-volition (rupasa~ncetana), sound, smell, taste, touch, thoug 8.sight-craving (ruupa-tanhaa), sound, smell, taste, touch, thought 9.sight-application(ruupa-vitakka), sound, smell, taste, touch, thou 10.sight-sustension(ruupa-vicaara), sound, smell, taste, touch, thoug There are altogether 60 places. There are 3 tanhaa or cravings. They are craving for sensuality (kaama-tanhaa), craving for eixstence (bhava-tanhaa) and craving for non-existence (vibhava-tanhaa). If one is mindful enought and wise enough he will be able to attend appropriately on dhamma that is these 60 dhamma. If he is not wise enough then 180 cravings might arise and they will bind him the three worlds namely kaama-loka or sensuous planes, ruupa-loka or fine material planes, and aruupa loka or non-material planes, where all beings are suffering without ever being interrupted May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 52892 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK (Attn. Howard, James, Phil) - I think I see a contradiction in your statements: RobertK : > the mundane jhanas are right concentartion but they are not part of > the eighfold path leading out of samsara - except as a support for > the jhanalabhi. \ > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration Tep: Yes, they are part of the Eightfold Path. The first of the four developments of concentration in AN IV.41 is exactly the same as the four rupa-jhanas that are defined as the eighth Path factor (samma- samadhi) in DN 22 . Compare the two sutta descriptions below. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now." [AN IV.41] "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration.' [DN 22] Tep: Therefore, the four rupa-jhanas are clearly for "leading out of samsara ". The following two suttas tell us the importance of jhana (rupa- and arupa-jhana) for ending of asavas. (1) "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." [AN IX, 36] (2) "If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [AN X.71 Akankha Sutta :Wishes] Further, SN XXXV.99 states positively that concentration (samadhi) supports yathabhuta-nana-dassana (seeing & knowing things the way they really are): "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." [end quote] Tep: Since jhana is a concentration, it follows that jhana is a supporting condition for discerning (pajanati) that brings about yathabhuta-nana- dassana. The jhana is NOT as bad as you seem to have said. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Howard and James, > the mundane jhanas are right concentartion but they are not part of > the eighfold path leading out of samsara - except as a support for > the jhanalabhi. \ > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > (snipped) > > > You see how there are differemnt types of sammasamadhi. > Just the four mundane jhanas alone are even considered as wrong > practice if they are misunderstood, they are accumlating samsara. > > James, notice that insight cannnot be developed while in jhana. Even > the Buddha could not attain enligtenment while in Jhana > RobertK > 52893 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:44pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Chris - I am impressed by the inner-circle knowledge you have demonstrated ! Bhikkhu Khantipalo disrobed ?! (He surely disappointed me by giving up the monkhood so easily.) I really want to know why and how it happened. If he no longer has interest in the Theravada tradition, then I think he might already have forgotten a lot about meditation. So I will not trouble him by my questions. Thank you very much, Chris, for writing to inform me. Now I am wondering how seriously should I read his article on jhana, etc. {:<| ) Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, > > Would it also be worth emailing the former Bhikkhu Khantipalo and > asking his clarification? My understanding is that he disrobed > years ago, is now a married layman and lives in North Queensland. I > think he is not exclusively following the Theravada tradition, and > runs a Non-sectarian Buddhist Centre - The Bodhi Citta Buddhist > Centre. He now prefers to be known as Achariya Khantipalo. > http://www.bodhicitta.org.au/index.htm > > metta, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > (snipped) 52894 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Conditions htootintnaing Dear Friends, I hope someone would help me finding 'conditions part 1, 2, 3, etc' posted by Rob M a few months ago. I got lost to track those messages. With regards, Htoo Naing 52895 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:39pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Chris - > ... Dear Tep, Christine, Tep, why did you change what Chrstine did write? Christine: "I think he is not exclusively following the Theravada tradition" You made of it: Tep" If he no longer has interest in the Theravada tradition, then I think he might already have forgotten a lot about meditation…" And concluded: "Now I am wondering how seriously should I read his article on jhana" Did you know there are other Buddhist traditions and that the followers of many of these tradition do also meditate and use several method, including jhana? Can you imagine that somebody has interest in non-Theravada Buddhism and ALSO in Theravada? (I can; in fact: I do) I'm more interested in what he wrote when a monk and the practice he is doing now. This also has to do with I discussed with Nina some weeks ago about "Modern Theravada" and with "global Buddhism" in stead of the existing traditions like Theravada, Mahayana. Metta Joop 52896 From: "Leo" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Gellanna Sutta - The Sick Ward leoaive Gelañña Sutta Samyutta Nikaya The Sick Ward (made as close as possible to ancient version with no I making and understanding body as body only) I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali, in the Great Forest, at the Gabled Pavilion. Then, in the late afternoon, he left his seclusion and went to the sick ward and on arrival sat down on a prepared seat. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "A monk should approach the time of death mindful & alert. This is our instruction to you all. "And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings themselves... mind of itself... mental qualities of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk is mindful. "And how is a monk alert? When going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert of body position; when looking toward & looking away, he makes himself fully alert of body position, when bending & extending his limbs, he makes himself fully alert of body position, when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl, he makes himself fully alert of body position, when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring he makes himself fully alert of body position, when urinating & defecating, he makes himself fully alert of body position, when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert about body position . This is how a monk is alert about body. "So a monk should approach the time of death mindful & alert. This is our instruction to you all. "As a monk is dwelling thus mindful & alert -- heedful, ardent, & resolute -- a feeling of pleasure arises in him. He discerns that 'A feeling of pleasure has arisen in this body. It is dependent on a requisite condition, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this body. Now, this body is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co- arisen. Being dependent on a body that is inconstant, fabricated, & dependently co-arisen, how can this feeling of pleasure that has arisen be constant?' He remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the body and to the feeling of pleasure. He remains focused on dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body and to the feeling of pleasure of the body. As he remains focused on inconstancy... dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body and to the feeling of pleasure, he abandons any passion-obsession with regard to the body and the feeling of pleasure of the body. "As he is dwelling thus mindful and alert -- heedful, ardent, and resolute -- a feeling of pain arises in him. He discerns that 'A feeling of pain has arisen in this body . It is dependent on a requisite condition, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this body. Now, this body is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co- arisen. Being dependent on a body that is inconstant, fabricated, & dependently co-arisen, how can this feeling of pain that has arisen be constant?' He remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the body & to the feeling of pain. He remains focused on dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body & to the feeling of pain. As he remains focused on inconstancy... dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body and to the feeling of pain, he abandons any pain-feeling- obsession with regard to the body and the feeling of pain. (Comprehending it as bodily pain only) "As he is dwelling thus mindful & alert -- heedful, ardent, & resolute -- a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain arises in him. He discerns that 'A feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain has arisen in me. It is dependent on a requisite condition, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on this body. Now, this body is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. Being dependent on a body that is inconstant, fabricated, & dependently co-arisen, how can this feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain that has arisen be constant?' He remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the body & to the feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He remains focused on dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body & to the feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. As he remains focused on inconstancy... dissolution... dispassion... cessation... relinquishment with regard to the body & to the feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he abandons any ignorance-obsession with regard to the body & the feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. "Sensing a feeling of bodily pleasure, he discerns that it is inconstant, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a bodily feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he discerns that it is inconstant, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of bodily pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of bodily pain... Sensing a bodily feeling of neither- pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that `This is the feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life of the body, he discerns that 'This is sensing the feeling limited to life of the body.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, at the end of life of it, all that was sensed through the body. "Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick -- and from not being provided any other sustenance -- it goes out unnourished; in the same way, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'This is sensing of feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life of the body, he discerns that 'This is a sensing of feeling limited to life of the body.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, at the end of life of it, all that was sensed through the body. 52897 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! christine_fo... Hello Tep, Joop, all, I'm sure it wasn't easy to disrobe after being a Theravada Bhikkhu for thirty-two years. Laurence Mills ordained as a Theravadin monk from 1959 till 1991. Born in London in 1932, Laurence spent eleven years resident in Thailand receiving teachings from many of that country's most respected forest meditation teachers. In 1973 he came to Australia and helped found the first Buddhist temple in Sydney. In 1978 he co- founded (with Ayya Khema), Wat Buddhadhamma Forest Meditation Centre at Wisemans Ferry in NSW, where he served for many years as teacher-in-residence. In 1991 Laurence gave back his monastic robes, and as a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche continues to teach the Buddha dhamma. He has written a book called "Noble Friendship: Travels of a Buddhist monk" which chronicles his time as a monk travelling in India with teachers such as Sangharakshita, Yogi Chen and Dhardo Rinpoche. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Chris - > > > ... > > Dear Tep, Christine, > > Tep, why did you change what Chrstine did write? > Christine: "I think he is not exclusively following the Theravada > tradition" > You made of it: > Tep" If he no longer has interest in the Theravada tradition, then I > think he might already have forgotten a lot about meditation…" And > concluded: "Now I am wondering how seriously should I read his > article on jhana" > > Did you know there are other Buddhist traditions and that the > followers of many of these tradition do also meditate and use several > method, including jhana? > Can you imagine that somebody has interest in non-Theravada Buddhism > and ALSO in Theravada? (I can; in fact: I do) > > I'm more interested in what he wrote when a monk and the practice he > is doing now. > This also has to do with I discussed with Nina some weeks ago > about "Modern Theravada" and with "global Buddhism" in stead of the > existing traditions like Theravada, Mahayana. > > Metta > > Joop > 52898 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:04pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi Joop (and Chris) - It was good that you gave me a feedback. >Joop: > Tep, why did you change what Chrstine did write? > Christine: "I think he is not exclusively following the Theravada > tradition" > You made of it: > Tep" If he no longer has interest in the Theravada tradition, then I > think he might already have forgotten a lot about meditation…" And > concluded: "Now I am wondering how seriously should I read his > article on jhana" > Tep: It is true that "not exclusively following" was replaced by " no longer has interest in". And then I gave my opinion as to why I preferred not to write him an email. Well, it is like you found out that Elvis was no longer the Rock-and-Roll King because he had quit. Wouldn't you be a little disappointed? .................... Joop: > Did you know there are other Buddhist traditions and that the > followers of many of these tradition do also meditate and use several method, including jhana? > Can you imagine that somebody has interest in non-Theravada Buddhism and ALSO in Theravada? (I can; in fact: I do) Tep: I wouldn't be surprised either if I found a Christian who practiced jhana. So it is imaginable that there are people who have beliefs in several different things at the same time. But I would think most of them lack focus and possibly the true skill of a "black-belt" meditator. Well, of course, there might be a few exceptions. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > (snipped) > > Dear Tep, Christine, > (snipped) > > I'm more interested in what he wrote when a monk and the practice he > is doing now. > This also has to do with I discussed with Nina some weeks ago > about "Modern Theravada" and with "global Buddhism" in stead of the > existing traditions like Theravada, Mahayana. > > Metta > > Joop > 52899 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi Chris (and Joop). The life of Laurence Mills is interesting. How could a man who was so full with energy and dedication like that finally quit ? It is clear to me that he was not disappointed in the Buddha and the Dhamma. What did he find in the Sangha that he did not like? Or, could it possibly be that he found "something" disappointing in himself after 32 years of trying hard to improve? Thanks for the good story, Chris. Best wishes, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, Joop, all, > > I'm sure it wasn't easy to disrobe after being a Theravada Bhikkhu > for thirty-two years. > > Laurence Mills ordained as a Theravadin monk from 1959 till 1991. > Born in London in 1932, Laurence spent eleven years resident in > Thailand receiving teachings from many of that country's most > respected forest meditation teachers. In 1973 he came to Australia > and helped found the first Buddhist temple in Sydney. In 1978 he co- > founded (with Ayya Khema), Wat Buddhadhamma Forest Meditation > Centre at Wisemans Ferry in NSW, where he served for many years as teacher-in-residence. In 1991 Laurence gave back his monastic robes, and as a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche continues to teach the Buddha dhamma. He has written a book called "Noble Friendship: Travels of a Buddhist monk" which chronicles his time as a monk travelling in India with teachers such as Sangharakshita, Yogi Chen and Dhardo Rinpoche. > (snipped) 52900 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,202 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 202. (d) 'According to the mundane and supramundane': feeling subject to cankers is mundane, and that is 'gross' compared with that free from cankers, because it is the cause for the arising of cankers, is liable to the floods, liable to the bonds, liable to the ties, liable to the hindrances, liable to the clingings, defilable, and shared by ordinary men. The latter, in the opposite sense, is subtle compared with that subject to cankers. This is how grossness and subtlety should be understood according to the mundane and supramundane. *********************** 202. lokiyalokuttaravasena pana saasavaa vedanaa lokiyaa, saa aasavuppattihetuto, oghaniyato, yoganiyato, ganthaniyato, niivara.niyato, upaadaaniyato, sa.mkilesikato, puthujjanasaadhaara.nato ca anaasavaaya o.laarikaa. saa vipariyaayena saasavaaya sukhumaa. eva.m lokiyalokuttaravasena o.laarikasukhumataa veditabbaa. 52901 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions lbidd2 Htoo: "Dear Friends, I hope someone would help me finding 'conditions part 1, 2, 3, etc' posted by Rob M a few months ago. I got lost to track those messages. With regards, Htoo Naing" Hi Htoo, 1) 51288, 2) 51289, 3) 51290 To find the others put robmoult in the search box at dsg Yahoo. Also, you could look up "paccaya" here: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 52902 From: connie Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Directing and Misdirecting Mind nichiconn Dear Howard, Are you reading Pali these days, then? Because that big "AFFECTION" for sukhamanveti is curious. _____________________ Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm dukkhamanveti cakka'm'va vahato pada'm Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm sukhamanveti chaayaa'va anapaayini ____________ So, I thought awhile about 'affect' and 'effect', but still (well, again) wonder what you were thinking. That & whether equanimity would fall into the affectionate camp, but maybe that's neither here nor there. Getting further and further away from your thoughts, I go to 'the following' & Wendy sewing Peter's shadow back on when it wasn't quite following him 'round the way he wanted. There's that sense of touching & immediacy here (intimacy if you really embrace the affection idea) with the mano/citta and cetasika/states and those that follow being born in mind... the pure or defiled [bhavanga] citta giving birth to the next mind [state(s)], etc. These verses are about (a)yoniso manasikaara, then, I decide and leave you with affection, connie 52903 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, RobertK (Attn. Howard, James, Phil) - > > I think I see a contradiction in your statements: > > RobertK : > > the mundane jhanas are right concentartion but they are not part of > > the eighfold path leading out of samsara - except as a support for > > the jhanalabhi. \ > > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > > Samadhi Sutta > > Concentration > > Tep: > > Yes, they are part of the Eightfold Path. The first of the four > developments of concentration in AN IV.41 is exactly the same as the > four rupa-jhanas that are defined as the eighth Path factor (samma- > samadhi) in DN 22 . Compare the two sutta descriptions below. > ++++++++++++++++ Dear Tep, Yes, but the first of the four types of sammasamadhio does not lead out of samsara. This is well accepted in Theravada. here is what Buddhaghosa says: I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin, Pali Text Society). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth" It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of mundane JHANAS. Thus it is said by Buddhaghosa that all mundane jhanas lead to accumulation- i.e add to samsara. This does not mean they are to be avoided rather that they are not part of teh path out of samsara which is unique to teh Buddha. For the one who is skilled in jhana he must still develop vipassana - whcih is a different path. A jhanalabhi, if skilled in vipassana, can take the jhana, once he leaves it and understand its conditioned nature. It is very difficult to attain genuine jhana and then to master it so that one can enter and leave at will is again very difficult. Then to develop vipassana is difficult. The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on lokuttara (transendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momenatry flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of jhana]" This special jhana is a different type from mundana jhana - it is path moment. Robertk 52904 From: connie Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind nichiconn hi, connie, you made a mess of that post to Howard with your "pure or defiled [bhavanga]" when you were supposed to be thinking about the whole process/order of mind(&states) with one being the base/foot/pada for the next (and javana as part of the flow/load/vahato) rather than the Adventitious Defilements question. peace, c. 52905 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directing and Misdirecting Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 11/27/05 8:16:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Are you reading Pali these days, then? Because that big "AFFECTION" for > sukhamanveti is curious. > =================== No, I just copied that from a web site. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52906 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:40pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 320- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [m] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] We read in the commentary to the Sudhåbhojana-Jåtaka (Jåtakas, Book V, no. 535) about a monk in the Buddha’s time who practised the utmost generosity. He gave away his food and even if he received something to drink which was merely sufficient to fill the hollow of his hand, he would, free from greed, still give it away. But formerly he used to be so stingy that “he would not give so much as a drop of oil on the tip of a blade of grass”. The Buddha spoke about one of this monk’s former lives when he was the miser Kosiya and this is the story of the “Sudhåbhojana Jåtaka”. Kosiya did not keep up the tradition of almsgiving of his ancestors and lived as a miser. One day he had craving for rice-porridge. When his wife suggested that she would cook rice-porridge not only for him but also for all the inhabitants of Vårånasi, he felt “just as if he had been struck on the head with a stick”. As we have read in the definition of avarice in the Atthasåliní, its manifestation is “the shrinking from such sharing, or niggardliness or sour feeling…” When there is avarice there is always unpleasant feeling, there cannot be any happiness. We then read in the Jåtaka that Kosiya’s wife subsequently offered to cook for a single street, for the attendants in his house, for the family, for the two of them, but he turned down all her offers. He wanted to cook porridge only for himself, in the forest, so that nobody else could see it. We should remember that the characteristic of stinginess is the concealing of one’s property. One wants to hide it because one does not want to share it. We then read in the Jåtaka that the Bodhisatta who was at that time the god Sakka wanted to convert him and came to him with four attendants disguised as brahmins. One by one they approached the miser and begged for some of his porridge. Sakka spoke the following stanza, praising generosity (387): * "From little one should little give, from moderate means likewise, From much give much: of giving nought no question can arise. This then I tell thee, Kosiya, give alms of that is thine: Eat not alone, no bliss is his that by himself shall dine, By charity thou mayst ascend the noble path divine." * Kosiya reluctantly offered some porridge to them. Then one of the brahmins changed himself into a dog. The dog made water and a drop of it fell on Kosiya’s hand. Kosiya went to the river to wash and then the dog made water in Kosiya’s cooking pot. When Kosiya threatened him he changed into a “blood horse” and pursued Kosiya. Then Sakka and his attendants stood in the air and Sakka preached to Kosiya out of compassion and warned him of an unhappy rebirth. Kosiya came to understand the danger of stinginess. He gave away all his possessions and became an ascetic. At the end of the Jåtaka the Buddha said: “Not now only, monks, but of old also I converted this niggardly fellow who was a confirmed miser”. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52907 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Electronic version of the Kathavatthu sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien, --- Sebastien Billard wrote: > Greetings, > > I would like to know if you knew an online version of the Kathavatthu in > > english (or french) ? This book of Abhidhamma seems quite important > concerning false views. .... S: The only translation I know of is the PTS one (in English) and none of the PTS translations are available online. It is an excellent (and very readable) Abhidhamma text. I've quoted from it many times. (See Kathavatthu in U.P., also maybe some under 'people', I forget. If you were to do a search for Kathavatthu in google on dhammastudygroup.org, you would probably get links to many past interesting threads, inc a long discussion with Michael B on the Kathavatthu. Btw, Michael B followed the ati format to set up a Portuguese website like you've done with French, I believe). Let me know if there are any particular quotes/refs you'd like me to check. I recommend the PTS transltion. If you get a longer membership at PTS you get discounts and a free book a year, .... > BTW, for the few french readers here, I just finished my translation of > the > Brahmajala Sutta, available here : > ... S: Congratulations! Metta, Sarah ========== 52908 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien, I had also intended to reply to your earlier post to me: --- Sebastien Billard wrote: > My interest started for no precise (or known) reason perhaps 2 years > ago. I > became interested in buddhism in general, though my influences were > mostly > Mahayana, because most of available material concern this branch of > buddhism. <...> > > But my problem now is that if I "intellectualize" a lot, I do not really > > meditate apart sometimes trying to give attention to my daily > activities, > like breathing, or walking, or noting physical or mental sensations. .... S: I see the ‘problem’ a little differently. I think for all of us, the only real problem is the present ignorance of dhammas. So whether we tend to intellectualize a lot or give attention to any different objects according to our inclinations, usually there’s ignorance and little awareness of these present dhammas. The way to develop awareness and understanding of dhammas, however, is not to do something special (which is bound to be with one of those deep-seated wrong views based on self-view, as I see it), but to consider, reflect and ‘study’ more about what present dhammas are, so that gradually awareness will be aware naturally and understanding can begin to know when such awareness arises. I’d be interested to hear your comments on this. .... >I > wish > I could meditate but there is no theravadin center here, and I don't > want to > go to tibetan centers. My only contact with theravadin world is with > Ven. > Dhamma Sami, a french monk in Myanmar, who maintains the (excellent) > website > www.dhammadana.org .... S: Can there be ‘meditation’ or ‘seclusion’ even now as we write? Can there not be awareness of ‘seeing’ or ‘visible object’ or ‘thinking’ or ‘doubt’ right now? When awareness arises, there is a ‘living alone’ with the present dhamma. Isn’t this what ‘meditation’ or bhavana is all about, rather than waiting til we visit a Theravadin centre? ... S: Just now when I was looking for your post, I came across your one to Phil (same thread subject) in which you gave this link: >P: Also, I recall that there is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya that says >that we can get caught up in concepts of masculinity and femininity, >warns against it. It's quite interesting. Can anyone post the link? Seb:This sutta perhaps ? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-048.html .... S: (Answering for Phil), yes, I think that’s the one. He referred us to it before. It’s a really useful sutta: “this is the Dhamma discourse on bondage & lack of bondage” .... S: Btw, with regard to your comments on why sometimes ignorance and sometimes attachment are given ‘as the beginning’,the commentary to the Dhammasangani (Sammohavinodani) gives a lot of detail about why each is used in different contexts. I quoted from this before. I won’t go into it now, but pls let me know if you’d like me to quote again or try to find what I wrote before. Metta, Sarah ======= 52909 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana sarahprocter... Hi Smallchap, As Nina mentioned, you always raise good questions here: --- smallchap wrote: > S: How could we tell a false jhana from a real one? Could you describe > real jhana in detail? (Well I know one is not in jhana when there is > physical movement of his body/body parts.) ... S:I just came across this message of Dan's whilst looking for something else and thought of your question: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50984 Do you have any comments on it? (Maybe you'll encourage Dan to write more by raising further points for discussion!!). Also, if you have time and/or inclination, pleas look at past posts in U.P. under 'jhana', 'jhana & nibbana', 'samatha', 'samadhi' etc and question anything you disagree with in them! I apologise for our origninal mistake in f/w what you say was intended as an off-list post to Math, but like Nina, I'm glad to see your contributions again. Metta, Sarah ------- 52910 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I'm not sure of that, Sarah. For a sotapanna there is not an iota > of > *belief* in an existent being, but I believe there *is* a sense of such. > > ----------------------------------------- S: I'm not sure if this is just a semantic point or not. For me, a belief and a sense of there being a 'current existent being' is the same, but I appreciate that you differentiate between these. ..... > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > By no kamma, you mean neither wholesome kamma nor the opposite, > but > there is functional kamma, kamma freed of any sense of me and mine, and > freed of > any and all clinging. ... S: By no kamma, I mean as you say, neither wholesome or unwholesome kamma which can bring results or support other kamma which may bring results. When we refer to the kiriya cittas in the arahant (freed of all clinging as you say), I wouldn't translate these as 'functional kamma', but rather as 'functional/inoperative consciousness'. The role of cetana (intention) of accumulating and bringing results by this kind of kamma condition no longer applies. Of course, all cetana is kamma in the sense of directing associated dhamas however and this is what I expect you are referring to. Again, we're probably talking semantics here. ..... >H: As for there being no dhammas conditioned by kamma, that can only > be > true if 'conditioned' means "conditioned in some particular manner." An > arahant's volitions and actions have consequences and serve as > conditions. When an > arahant wills moving, other conditionsd allowing, motion of his limbs > occurs, > i.e., air element that is a mind-conditioned rupa arises. So, still > there > remains the question of *exactly* what 'inoperative' means as regards > the kamma of > an arahant. ..... S: Inoperative by way of kamma condition which brings results (vipaka) and which conditions rupas in this way too by kamma condition. As I wrote before, this is called asynchronous kamma condition as opposed to conascent kamma condition which refers to the separate function of cetana which arises at every moment of consciousness, directing 'conascent' states and rupas produced by these states. For example, even now when there is seeing consciousness, cetana 'directs' or coordinates the other universal mental factors arising and the seeing consciousness itself and associated rupas. This is the same for arahants. ..... >H: As for no accumulation of kamma, that is similar to the > foregoing. > What exactly > is implied by that phrase? If it means that the mindstream of the > arahant is > not effected morally in any way, okay, because that mindstream is > stainless > and invulnerable to stain. .... S: Yes, invulnerable to 'good' or 'bad' stains that accumulate by way of 'ayuhana' (accumulation) or sankhara in D.O. leading to future rebirth and continuation in samsara. .... > ---------------------------------------------- > >S: Again, it is not referring to conascent> > > cetana which arises with every citta, conditioning accompanying states > and > > so on, but specifically to the second function of cetana arising in > the > > javana process accompanying kusala and akusala cittas which can > accumulate > > and produce good and bad results. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sarah, the foregoing may hold meaning for you, but it holds none > for > me. For me it is little more than a sequence of unrelated sounds. If you > can > translate this into standard English that makes a clear statement, then > I might > be able to process it and see whether I can glean useful meaning from > it, and > then decide whether it answers my question. .... S: Seeing now is vipaka, the result of kamma. Hearing now is vipaka, the result of kamma. If there is no new kamma (good or bad) there will be no conditions for rebirth and further seeing or hearing or other sense door experiences in future. The fire has been extinguished. However, during the life of an arahant, just like now, cetana cetasika continues to arise at every moment performing its function of coordinating or 'willing' other states to perform their usual functions. .... >H:As it stands for me it is as > if > having read nothing. I mean NO disrespect by this - I'm just speaking > truly. > ------------------------------------------------- S: :-) No problem -- I don't think it's an easy matter to understand or discuss. ... > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, then. so it comes down to what is means for kamma to > condition > dhammas "by way of kamma condition," and how that differs from other > types of > conditioning. Can you make that clear? ... S: As you know, there are 24 condtions which all work in different ways. To make it more complicated, there are many more sub-divisions. There are the two distinct types of kamma condition I've been referring to. Usually by kamma condition, we think of the second kind, asychronous kamma condition (naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya) which refers to the way good and bad results occur from good and bad deeds through body, speech and mind. It is the kusala and akusala cetana which is the kamma here, but not all kusala and akusala cetana can bring results. It may just support other kamma. Of course, it needs other conditions, such as decisive support condition, to make this possible, but only this kamma condition works by way of producing vipaka and kamma produced rupas. You're welcome to keep asking me to clarify my comments. I think you'd also find it useful to read chapter 11 'Kamma condition' in Nina's book on 'Conditions' (at Zolag). (Also, if you have time, look under 'Kamma' in U.P.) .... >H: Just using the terminology > without > indicating its precise meaning provides nothing more than the appearance > of > explanation. > ---------------------------------------------- .... S: Oh well, I'll keep trying:-) ... > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it is a given that the results are not *from* morally > positive/negative mindstates. They are the results of neutral states, of > kiriyacetana. > But what of the results themselves? How does one distinguish the results > of > kiriyacittas from the results of kusala and akusala states? ... S: Good states and cittas can condition more good states or condition actions such as dana, sila or bhavana, but there are no vipaka results as I've said, such as seeing or hearing or the rupas conditioned by new kamma such as rupas in the body, ear-sense, eye-sense, masculinity/femininity, life faculty rupa and so on. ..... >H: It still > comes down > to clarifying what it means for an arahant's kamma to be "inoperative". > Exactly > what does such kamma *not* produce? In what precise sense is it > "inoperative"? > ------------------------------------------ ... S: Is it clear now? I promise you that my intention is not to confuse further:-). .... > > > >--------------------------------------- > > S: The results of the actions of an arahant on others will depend on > their > > own vipaka and accumulations. For example, for some people like > Devadatta, > > the sight of arahants and even the Buddha was a condition for the > worst > > kind of akusala kamma-patha to be performed. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course. there are multiple conditions involved, always, in the > > arising of phenomena. That still doesn't indicate in what way an > rahant's volition > is "inoperative" > --------------------------------------------- S: The seeing consciousness which sees pleasant objects now is the result of good kamma in the past. For the arahant, there will be no new 'fuel' to result in further good (or bad) experiences. Mogallana's death was the result of past bad kamma performed from long back. Nothing that occurred after he bacame an arahant could result in good or bad experiences through the senses. .... > ---------------------------------------- > > S: I hope it’s clear now. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I'm afraid not! ;-)) But, hey, no problem. Maybe just let this > matter > go, ok? > ---------------------------------------------- S: As you said to Sukin I think, how come you didn't say this at the outset? j/k Howard, I'd already seen it:-). thx for helping me to reflect further. It would be helpful if you'd also give some of your own understandings on any of the points you've raised/questioned too. Metta, Sarah p.s Pls let Sukin or I know off-list if you'd appreciate a hard copy of 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. I think you'd find it useful for reference. Also others interested in the Abhidhamma like Larry, Tep etc. ==================== 52911 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:37am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Joop (and Chris) - > > It was good that you gave me a feedback. > Hallo Tep, Christine First I thought your reaction was a 'cold' one about somebody who left the 'Theravada-church'. But now I understand it was not coldness but being disappointed because you admired him. I tried to think what will happen with me when somebody I admire will do something comparable. Yes, I will be disappointed too. You will find a new balance after some hours/days/weeks. Perhaps already on this moment you can react on this statement of me: Theravada, and Buddhism in general, in the future will be a movement (I try to avoid the term 'religion') without monks. There will be other forms of (organized) homelesness and other renunciations. This kind of change is not possible without crisis, some Theravadins will define this crisis as decline of Buddhasasana. Metta Joop 52912 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:39am Subject: Samatha better then vipassana ? (Was: Re: Hi All jwromeijn Hallo James Just a message to let you know I'm inspired by our discussion to study (and practice) the relation vipassana-samatha. I hope your being sick is just a short one Metta Joop 52913 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:17am Subject: Essays on kamma/karma jwromeijn Hallo all Some days ago the essays were published on-line of the Conference on "Revisioning Karma" 17-22 OCTOBER 2005 on http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/online.html In general I think the 'Journal of Buddhist Ethics' is an important source for reflection. I have only read some short part of the essays but think they are worth reading A warning for DSG-readers: 'Karma' is used as a general term; some of the essays are especiaaly about 'kamma' But most are critical and not orthodox, they are more future-oriented then many DSG-participants perhaps like. Metta Joop CONTENTS Critical questions towards a naturalized concept of karma in Buddhism by Dale Wright Groundwork for a Metaphysic of Buddhist Morals: A New Analysis of puñña and kusala, in light of sukka by Martin Adam Merit Transfer in Mahayana Buddhism by Barbra Clayton Reflections on Kant and Karma by Bradford Cokelet Karma, Rebirth, and Mental Causation by Chrisitan Coseru Is the Buddhist Doctrine of Karma Cognitively Meaningful? by James Deitrick Valuing Karma: A Critical Concept for Orienting Interdependence with Wisdom, Attentive Mastery and Moral Clarity by Peter Hershock Karma, Rebirth, and the Problem of Evil by Whitley Kaufman Karma, Character, and Consequentialism by Damien Keown Karma in the later texts of the Pali Canon by Jessica Main Questioning Karma: Buddhism and the Phenomenology of the Ethical by Eric Nelson Dark and Bright Karma: A New Reading by Abraham Velez The Reactionary Role of Karma in 20th Century Japan by Brian Victoria 52914 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! christine_fo... Hello Joop, all, You may be interested in reading "The Broken Buddha - Critical Reflections on Theravada and a plea for a new Buddhism" by Venerable S. Dhammika (55 pages in .pdf format..851 kb) http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft- berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddha.pdf OR http://tinyurl.com/9llc6 metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joop (and Chris) - > > > > It was good that you gave me a feedback. > > > Hallo Tep, Christine > > First I thought your reaction was a 'cold' one about somebody who > left the 'Theravada-church'. > But now I understand it was not coldness but being disappointed > because you admired him. > > I tried to think what will happen with me when somebody I admire will > do something comparable. Yes, I will be disappointed too. > > You will find a new balance after some hours/days/weeks. Perhaps > already on this moment you can react on this statement of me: > Theravada, and Buddhism in general, in the future will be a movement > (I try to avoid the term 'religion') without monks. There will be > other forms of (organized) homelesness and other renunciations. This > kind of change is not possible without crisis, some Theravadins will > define this crisis as decline of Buddhasasana. > > Metta > > Joop > 52915 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:26am Subject: No Panic Here ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Calmed heroes die purged of both Identification and Agitation! On this occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Upasena were staying at Rajagaha in the Cool Grove, in the Snake's Hood Grotto. There a young viper fell on the Venerable Upasena's back & bite him badly. Then Ven. Upasena calmly said to the bhikkhus: Come, friends, lift this body of mine up on a bed & carry it outside before it is scattered right here like a handful of chaff... Venerable Sariputta then said to Ven. Upasena: We do not see any alteration in Ven. Upasena's body nor any change in his abilities; yet Ven. Upasena says: Come, friends, lift this body of mine up on a bed & carry it outside before it is scattered right here like a handful of chaff... Friend Sariputta, for one who thinks: 'I am this eye', or 'This eye is mine', or 'I am this ear', or 'This ear is mine', or 'I am this nose', or 'This nose is mine', or 'I am this tongue', or 'This tongue is mine', or 'I am this body', or 'This body is mine', or 'I am this mind', or 'This mind is mine,' there might very well be an agitated change of the body or a change of the abilities. But, friend Sariputta, it does not occur to me: 'I am this eye' nor 'This eye is mine' nor 'I am this ear' nor 'This ear is mine' nor 'I am this nose' nor 'This nose is mine' nor 'I am this tongue' nor 'This tongue is mine' nor 'I am this body' nor 'This body is mine' nor 'I am this mind' nor 'This mind is mine, so why should there be any variation in my body or any sudden change in my abilities ??? It must indeed be because all I-making, and all mine-making, & any latent tendency to the conceit: 'I Am...' have been utterly uprooted in the Venerable Upasena for a very long time, that it does not occur to him: 'I am this eye', or 'This eye is mine', or 'I am this ear', or 'This ear is mine', or 'I am this nose', or 'This nose is mine', or 'I am this tongue', or 'This tongue is mine', or 'I am this body', or 'This body is mine', or 'I am this mind', or 'This mind is mine'... Then those bhikkhus lifted Ven. Upasena's body up on a bed & carried it outside. Then Ven. Upasena's body was scattered right there, just like a handful of chaff! Upasena was the younger brother of Ven. Sariputta. For his 'personal' details see: Upasena Vangantaputta: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/u/upasena.htm Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 40-1 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Upasena: Upasena Sutta (69) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 52916 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:16am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Joop, all, > > You may be interested in reading "The Broken Buddha - Critical > Reflections on Theravada and a plea for a new Buddhism" by Venerable Hallo Christine Thanks, it's in German but I can read that language (don't like it) Are you never sleeping, I thought it's night in Australie now? Metta Joop 52917 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/28/05 3:31:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > The role of cetana (intention) of accumulating and bringing results by > this kind of kamma condition no longer applies. > > Of course, all cetana is kamma in the sense of directing associated dhamas > however and this is what I expect you are referring to. Again, we're > probably talking semantics here. > ======================= Cetana is what I mean by kamma. Just "pushing", willing, impulse that serves as motor force. When the Buddha walked or turned or talked, cetana played a role. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52918 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directing and Misdirecting Mind/Connie(Dhammapada) upasaka_howard Hi again, Connie- I should have used the following translation: _____________________ 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow ------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52919 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! icarofranca O Dearest Christine!!!!!!!! The first link seems to be broken up (the Broken Buddha - the Broken Link...). The second my lame 150 Hz PC, at my work, didn't manage to open it. Anyway, it seems to be in German, isn't it ? When I come at home again I will surely open it with my wonderful notebook! Metta, []s Ícaro >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello Joop, all, > > You may be interested in reading "The Broken Buddha - Critical > Reflections on Theravada and a plea for a new Buddhism" by Venerable > S. Dhammika (55 pages in .pdf format..851 kb) > http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft- > berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddha.pdf > OR > http://tinyurl.com/9llc6 > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" > wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Joop (and Chris) - > > > > > > It was good that you gave me a feedback. > > > > > Hallo Tep, Christine > > > > First I thought your reaction was a 'cold' one about somebody who > > left the 'Theravada-church'. > > But now I understand it was not coldness but being disappointed > > because you admired him. > > > > I tried to think what will happen with me when somebody I admire > will > > do something comparable. Yes, I will be disappointed too. > > > > You will find a new balance after some hours/days/weeks. Perhaps > > already on this moment you can react on this statement of me: > > Theravada, and Buddhism in general, in the future will be a > movement > > (I try to avoid the term 'religion') without monks. There will be > > other forms of (organized) homelesness and other renunciations. > This > > kind of change is not possible without crisis, some Theravadins > will > > define this crisis as decline of Buddhasasana. > > > > Metta > > > > Joop > > > 52920 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation icarofranca Hi Howard! "Motor Force"seems to be a very good informal definitiom for "Cetana"! You see, the main idea of Kamma is embedded in a larger set of events or mind objects called "Accumulation"at a whole. One follows his or hers own accumulation, making buddeth forth its concomitant Kamma and, threading this path this one gets his or hers own fruit! Metta, Ícaro > ======================= > Cetana is what I mean by kamma. Just "pushing", willing, impulse that > serves as motor force. When the Buddha walked or turned or talked, cetana > played a role. > > With metta, > Howard > 52921 From: "smallchap" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > S: I apologise for our origninal mistake in f/w what you say was intended as an off-list post to Math, smallchap: It probably was my mistake. Your apology is therefore not necessary. > S: As Nina mentioned, you always raise good questions here: smallchap: I am not sure if I raised good questions, but I certainly learn a lot from Nina, you and the members here. > --- smallchap wrote: > > > smallchap: How could we tell a false jhana from a real one? Could you describe real jhana in detail? (Well I know one is not in jhana when there is physical movement of his body/body parts.) > ... > S:I just came across this message of Dan's whilst looking for something else and thought of your question: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50984 > > Do you have any comments on it? (Maybe you'll encourage Dan to write more by raising further points for discussion!!). smallchap: I have read Dan's messages about his meditation experience, but it happened 16 years ago so there is little benefits to re-enter the discussion. I have read also other messages posted by Dan. I am impressed by his understanding of the Dhamma. > S: Also, if you have time and/or inclination, pleas look at past posts in U.P. under 'jhana', 'jhana & nibbana', 'samatha', 'samadhi' etc and question anything you disagree with in them! smallchap: Thanks for pointing me to the U.P. Awful lots of information in there so I will take my time to look through. Not sure if I will raise any question. smallchap 52922 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! jwromeijn Hallo Iacao, Christine English version is in http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft- berlin.de/downloads/thebrokenbuddhaengl.pdf Mind: tjis is broken again, type it out Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > > > O Dearest Christine!!!!!!!! > > The first link seems to be broken up (the Broken Buddha - the > Broken Link...). The second my lame 150 Hz PC, at my work, didn't > manage to open it. Anyway, it seems to be in German, isn't it ? > When I come at home again I will surely open it with my wonderful > notebook! > > Metta, > > []s > > Ícaro > > > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > > wrote: > > > > Hello Joop, all, > > > > You may be interested in reading "The Broken Buddha - Critical > > Reflections on Theravada and a plea for a new Buddhism" by > Venerable > > S. Dhammika (55 pages in .pdf format..851 kb) > > http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft- > > berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddha.pdf > > OR > > http://tinyurl.com/9llc6 > > > > metta > > Chris > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" 52924 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Chris - > > Joop: > > You will find a new balance after some hours/days/weeks. Perhaps > already on this moment you can react on this statement of me: > Theravada, and Buddhism in general, in the future will be a movement > (I try to avoid the term 'religion') without monks. There will be > other forms of (organized) homelesness and other renunciations. This kind of change is not possible without crisis, some Theravadins will define this crisis as decline of Buddhasasana. > Tep: Talking about what may happen to Buddhism in the future, the anticipated decline of the Buddha-sassana, I'd like to recommend the following sutta. I hope you may have a few thoughts to share after reading it: The Discourses on Future Dangers http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/an5-77.htm Warm regards, Tep ====== 52925 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:13am Subject: Kiriyacittas/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation) upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - There is the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: _____________________ > javana (fr. javati, to impel): 'impulsion', is the phase of full cognition > in the cognitive series, or perceptual process (citta-v?i; s. vi??a-kicca) > occurring at its climax, if the respective object is large or distinct. It is > at this phase that karma is produced, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volition > concerning the perception that was the object of the previous stages of the > respective process of consciousness. There are normally 7 impulsive moments. In > mundane consciousness (lokiya, q.v.), any of the 17 karmically wholesome > classes of consciousness (Tab. I, 1-17) or of the 12 unwholesome ones (Tab. I, > 22-23) may arise at the phase of impulsion. For the Arahat, however, impulsion > has no longer a karmic, i.e. rebirth-producing character, but is a > karmically independent function (kiriya, q.v.; Tab. I, 72-89). There are further 8 > supermundane classes of impulsion (Tab. I, 18-21, 66-69). ---------------------------------------- Here he takes 'karmic' to mean "rebirth-producing." That sounds good to me. Whether one understands 'rebirth' as meaning the commencement of a new lifetime or, of greater importance to me, as the renewal of sense of self or personal identity, understanding cetana, or a mindstate if you prefer, that is is *not* rebirth-producing to be kiriya or "inoperative" makes sense to me and satisfies me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52926 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 577 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, As there is the cause there also is cessation. This cessation is because of eradication of the cause. The first two truths have been discussed. The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation of suffering. It is known as nirodha saccaa. As there are 60 places where tanhaa or craving originate. At these places that fire of craving also extinguishes. What are these 60 places? They have been discussed in samudaya saccaa or the truth of the cause of suffering. To repeat, they are 1. cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, mano eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind 2. rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, mind-object/thought 3. cakkhu-vinnaana, sota-v, ghana-v, jivha-v, kaya-v, mano-v 4. cakkhu-sam-phassa, sota-, ghana-, jivhaa-, kaya-, mano- eye-contact, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind 5. cakkhu-sam-phassajaa vedanaa, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, mano feeling-born-of-eye-contact, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind 6. rupa-sannaa,sadda-san,gandha-san,rasa-san, photthabba-san,mano-san sight-perception, sound, smell, taste, touches, thought-perception 7. rupa-sa`n-cetana, sadda-, gandha-, rasa-, photthabba-, dhamma- volition-at-sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, volition-at-thought 8. rupa-tanha, sadda-tanha, gandha-tanha, rasa-tanha, photth-,dhamma- craving for sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, thought 9. rupa-vitakka, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma-vitakka application to sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, thought 10. ruupa-vicaara, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma-vicaara sustension to sight, sound, smell, taste, photthabba, dhamma. As pannaa or wisdom arise (because of wise attention_yoniso manasikaara) there will not be any more craving at these 60 places. This cessation is kilesa-nibbana or 'PEACE ARISEN FROM CLEARANCE OF DEFILEMENTS'. As soon as defilements are eradicated there is peace and this peace is felt by the current life if pannaa (arahatta magga panna) has arisen. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 52927 From: nina Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:36am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Dear smallchap and other friends, Yes, smallchap, also in your last post to me. I was just away for a few days and now I have to delay answering mails. I won't forget. Nina op 28-11-2005 16:31 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: > >> S: As Nina mentioned, you always raise good questions here: 52929 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Dear Robert K - Thank you for giving a detailed explanation of the "mundane jhanas". Let me summarize the key ideas you have elaborated (in quotations below) along with my response. 1. R: "All mundane jhanas lead to accumulation- i.e. add to samsara. This does not mean they are to be avoided rather that they are not part of the path out of samsara which is unique to the Buddha". Tep: I agree with that. But I'd like to make a note that I have not seen even one sutta that teaches "mundane jhanas". All of the suttas I know, either given by the Buddha or by the Arahants (e.g. Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda), are about the only kind of jhanas as taught by the Buddha; i.e. the jhanas that are "part of the path out of samsara". My question (or "request") to you is : Can you prove me wrong, please? 2. R: "A jhanalabhi, if skilled in vipassana, can take the jhana, once he leaves it and understand its conditioned nature. It is very difficult to attain genuine jhana and then to master it so that one can enter and leave at will is again very difficult. Then to develop vipassana is difficult". Tep: I also agree with that. 3. "The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on lokuttara (transendental). 'He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momenatry flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of jhana]' This special jhana is a different type from mundana jhana - it is path moment." Tep: I understand that the above quoted paragraph came from the expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin, Pali Text Society). P58. Triplets in the Matika. But this commentary does not convince me that the Buddha taught "mundane jhana". I don't think this "Discourse on lokuttara (transendental)" is a part of the Sutta-pitaka or the Buddha's and Arahants' teachings. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, RobertK (Attn. Howard, James, Phil) - > > > > I think I see a contradiction in your statements: > > > > RobertK : > > > the mundane jhanas are right concentartion but they are not part > of > > > the eighfold path leading out of samsara - except as a support > for > > > the jhanalabhi. \ > > > The sammasamadhi that leads out of samsara is explained here > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > > > Samadhi Sutta > > > Concentration > > > > Tep: > > > > Yes, they are part of the Eightfold Path. The first of the four > > developments of concentration in AN IV.41 is exactly the same as > the > > four rupa-jhanas that are defined as the eighth Path factor (samma- > > samadhi) in DN 22 . Compare the two sutta descriptions below. > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Dear Tep, > Yes, but the first of the four types of sammasamadhio does not lead > out of samsara. > This is well accepted in Theravada. here is what Buddhaghosa says: > I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin, Pali Text > Society). > P58. Triplets in the Matika (snipped) 52930 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop and Chris - > ... Hallo Tep, all Tep: "Talking about what may happen to Buddhism in the future, the anticipated decline of the Buddha-sassana, I'd like to recommend the following sutta. I hope you may have a few thoughts to share after reading it: The Discourses on Future Dangers http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/an5-77.htm Tep, I have read these Suttas. Partly they are about the individual level, about the future of a monk: that's not our theme here. The most special remark on the collective level is: "Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. " That is true, of course. But two questions are: - What is the Dhamma and what is Indian culture of 2500 years ago accompaning the Dhamma, a culture that can be replaced without influencing the Dhamma? Is for example the symbiothic relation between monks and laypersons Dhamma or culture? - What was meant literally and what metaphorically in the Dhamma? And then "the anticipated decline of the Buddha-sassana" you are talking about. I hope you have read my messages about that some weeks ago in which I proved that the prophecy of decline and disapearance of Buddha Sassana in five thousand years was never teached by the Buddha but was composed by Buddhaghosa thousand years later, probably based on Sinhalese commentaries. Metta Joop 52931 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:44pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James (Attn. Matheesha, Phil, Ken H, Jon, Steve, Htoo)- > > I am glad to see you back with lots of energy. James: Thanks :-) > > Thank you so much for the Web link to Bhikkhu Khantipalo's meditation > advice concerning the real purpose of meditation > or "collectedness"(samadhi), its wrong practices, and how to do it right. > > I am interested to know how you and others think about the > following "two streams in meditation". > > "As the mind is really a series of mental events which arise and pass > away with incredible rapidity, each of which is a mind complete with > supporting mental factors, so at the beginning this kind of mindfulness > is really one "mindful" mind watching other "minds" (which are all within > one's own mental continuity of course). One thereby develops the > ability to look into the mind and to see where it has gone to. Has it gone > to the past, present or future? Has it gone to materiality, or to feelings, > or perhaps to cognitions, to volitional activities, or has it gone to > consciousness? By this method of "Where has it gone?" the distracted > mind slowly comes under the surveillance of the mindful mind, until > mindfulness forms a strong foundation for further development. > Considerable, though mundane, brilliance of mind is both needed and > developed by this practice, which however should be balanced by the > tranquillity of the absorptions. When the mind has become calm, one > should start to practice for the absorptions (jhana), which will in their turn > be the basis for the arising of real insight. This method is > called "wisdom leading to calm." > > "Other methods suited to those whose minds are less disturbed > initially, include the classic forty subjects of meditation (see Appendix); > and these, together with more developed types of meditation practice, > involve the use of a definite object for concentration. This may be one's > own body or a part of it, a color or a picture, a word or a phrase, or > abstract contemplation and so forth. All these methods involve some > firm but gentle discipline of the mind, in that each time it strays away, it > must be gently brought back again (by mindfulness, of course) to > concentrate again on the chosen subject. > > "All these forty subjects are of this second type in which the calm > gained from practice is then used for the arousing of wisdom. They are > for this reason called "calm-leading-to-wisdom" methods, and are very > important in the present distracted age. For their full explanation one > should consult the Path of Purification (Visuddhi-magga, translation), > although even the great learning in that book cannot replace the > personal contact with a teacher. [endquote] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch7 > > Questions : > > Which of the two meditation streams is directed meditation, and which > of them is undirected? Or, are both directed ? James: Honestly, I have little idea what this author is talking about when he describes the "wisdom leading to calm" path. The whole thing of a "calm mind" watching a "distracted mind" in order to make it calm seems strange to me. I don't think that that can really happen. We don't have two minds. I linked this aricle because of the dangers section, which is practical and suited the discussion. I didn't intend to say that I agree with everything this author says in regards to meditation. > > Do you think that collectedness (or concentration, samadhi) is > necessary if you can start directly from Satipatthana and "right > understanding" ? If you can, then there is no "Dangers to Meditation", > right? James: Personally, I don't believe that even satipatthana can be done properly without the establishment of samadhi. Samadhi, developed during sitting meditation, helps to subdue and supress the hindrances/defilements even while away from the meditation cushion. Therefore, ideally, satipatthana and samadhi should both be developed in tandem. When the hindrances/defilements are subdued, one can better see dhammas, like looking through a clear pool. The Buddha compared the hindrances to muddy water, grassy water, polluted water, cloudy water, wind-swept water etc. When the water (mind) is cleared of the hindrances/defilements (though only temporarily) the real work of satipatthana can begin. Regarding your second question, even with "right understanding" there can be some "dangers" to meditation if the hindrances haven't been properly subdued. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= Metta, James 52932 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Samatha better then vipassana ? (Was: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo James > > Just a message to let you know I'm inspired by our discussion to > study (and practice) the relation vipassana-samatha. James: Very glad to hear it!! Good luck! > I hope your being sick is just a short one James: Thanks. I hope so too although it has been lingering on and off for weeks now. Winter does that to me- I am a delicate desert flower. ;-)) > > Metta > > Joop Metta, James 52933 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:58pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > And then "the anticipated decline of the Buddha-sassana" you are > talking about. I hope you have read my messages about that some weeks > ago in which I proved that the prophecy of decline and disapearance > of Buddha Sassana in five thousand years was never teached by the > Buddha but was composed by Buddhaghosa thousand years later, probably > based on Sinhalese commentaries. James: Yes, I agree with you here. The Buddha didn't teach this idea of the Buddhasasana ending in 500 years or 5000 years. But the Buddha did say something about the future of the sasana: "The Buddha prophesized that in the future when people lose respect and reverence for five things it will be a sign that the Dhamma is degenerating. What five? The Buddha, his teachings, the community of enlightened and ordained people, the monastic training and discipline, and jhána." SN 16.13 http://www.volny.cz/chandako/text/article_samath_vipasana.html > > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James 52934 From: "susan" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:47pm Subject: Hi from a new member susie11uk Hi Everyone, I just joined the group this evening and thought I'd introduce myself. I have been trying to follow the Buddhist path for nearly a year now and it's a subject I love reading about too and would like to involve myself in discussions and sharing experiences. Look forward to getting to know you. Susan 52935 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: Hi from a new member philofillet Hi Suzie Welcome to the group. I joined about two years ago. It's great. There was a time I wondered if it was actually a cult, because I was completely obsessed with it, but that seems to be subsiding, thankfully! :) > I just joined the group this evening and thought I'd introduce >myself. I have been trying to follow the Buddhist path for nearly a >year now and it's a subject I love reading about too and would like to >involve myself in discussions and sharing experiences. When I first joined I almost quit right away because of all the Pali terms that were flying around, just overwhelming. The thoughtfulness of a certain someone kept me involved. So don't get discouraged by all the Pali. As you read, certain terms will keep appearing and become very familiar quite soon, and the terms that don't appear often won't become familiar, and that's fine too. All in due course. Please do share experiences. Some of us here (including me) tend to share experiences more than others. All kinds of approaches to Dhamma. Phil 52936 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:42pm Subject: The kamma of wrong speech (was Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) philofillet Hi James (and all) > Phil: Technical question - if we commit akusala kamma such as wrong > speech without intent, is it not still akusala kamma? > > James: This question isn't worded quite right: It should be: if we > commit wrong speech without intent, is it still akusala kamma? And > the answer is: no, it is not akusala kamma. Intent is what creates > kamma, as the Buddha taught. Ph: But when it comes to Dhamma (and dhammas) is "intent" the same intent that we understood conventionally? That's what I'm wondering about. I know you're not a cetasika kinda guy, but I wonder what cetasika "intent" is? I have a hunch that the intent that does or doesn't give kammic weight to a deed of thought, speech or action is not thinking about what we want to do. It is something subtler, far more momentary, something related to cetana. Again, wanting to stay technical here. (If anyone would like to add commments about this "intent" cetasika, it would be appreciated) >> James: There is a story in the Canon, I don't know the sutta, of a > monk who was enlightened who spoke very harshly to his fellow monks- > even calling them names and degrading them. These monks got upset > and went to the Buddha to complain. The Buddha explained that this > monk was not committing wrong speech because he had no intention to > do harm- his speech was harsh because of habit formed from past > accumulations. The story ends there but what do you think happened > after that? Was this monk kicked out of the sangha? Did he have to > get lectures periodically from the Buddha about right speech? Did > he have to confess his sins of wrong speech to the sangha? I don't > think so. In other words the Buddha told the monks: "That is the > way he is. Deal with it- with wisdom." Ph: Interesting story. I would like to see it. (Not because I don't believe you.) I would be careful about comparing myself to a monk sitting in the presence of the Buddha, though. Maybe the monk had purer accumulations than you or I do, and the past accumulated habits were just playing out, the way they play out for sotapannas, who still do akusala because of past accumulated habits, but not to the degree of transgression. Something like that, I don't know. I think we can become too confident by comparing our situations and our understanding to those that we come across in suttas. My opinion, only. And if a monk killed a chicken because in the past he had the habit of doing so, would he be absolved of kammic guilt by the same logic? Of course akusala kamma patha (ie kamma of the level of transgression) of wrong speech is not as shocking as akusala kamma patha of killing, but technically speaking the same rules apply, don't they? > > Phil: For example, James, if you were to reread some of your posts > that caused offense do you think you might find that there was > intent to hurt buried in them, though you weren't aware of it at the > time? > > James: Now, this is getting rather personal, and that isn't such a > good idea, but since you have asked in a genuine matter I will try > to explain—and you can accept what I say or not. phil: again, interested in staying technical. When we are talking Dhamma, I'm interested in talking in terms of paramattha dhammas (or nama and rupa, if you prefer.) The other day you quoted a good F. Scott Fitzgerald quote to Sarah, about balancing two conflicting (?) ways of thought without going mad, or words to that effect. Meaning that we need to balance conventional realities and ultimate realities - you thought Sarah was tilting way too far toward discussing in ultimate terms all the time. I know what you mean, but I think I am tilting in the ultimate reality direction as well. We all have our friends and aquaintances that we can yack with about conventionally-termed topics. DSG is the rare opportunity to talk in Dhamma terms, I think. Don't want to go too far, so I appreciate the Fitzgerald quote. > No, I do not > intend to hurt anyone with my harsh speech. I speak harshly for two > reasons: (1) My parents speak harshly so I picked up the habit; (2) > I was verbally abused for several years so I picked up the habit to > defend myself verbally. You know how much I love those e-mails from your father. I had a chance to see a doozy off-list that hasn't been posted here. So, technically speaking, this verbal self-defence of yours cannot be wrong speech because it is conditioned by your parents speech or others' harsh speech? I wonder if this is true. If someone slaps you in the face, and you slap them back, isn't that akusala kamma patha on your part? If someone kills your friend, and you kill their friend, isn't that akusala kamma patha? If someone calls you an asshole and you call them an asshole back, isn't that akusala kamma patha? I think so. The conditions there are much more direct, but I think the same rule applies even if the conditions are further removed. Again, just my speculating on technical aspects. (If anyone else would like to add their comments on this point, it would be appreciate.) > Some may look at my speech, > know that I meditate, and see some sort of dissonance there. They > may think, "Well, look at James! Obviously, meditation doesn't do a > person really any good!" Of course they can think what they want > but I know better. Meditation saved my life. If it wasn't for > meditation I'm sure I would be dead today- just like my brother and > sister. Praise Buddha! (I say that sincerely.) > The Buddha said that even if a person was cutting you apart from > limb to limb, if you had a mind of hate toward that person you would > not be practicing his teachings. I agree with that. If someone was > cutting me apart limb from limb I wouldn't hate him, but I would > want to escape and protect myself. If I had to scream, hit him, or > call him dirty names to protect myself, I would do that. But I > wouldn't hate him at that moment. Again, "hate" in Dhamma terms is dosa, aversion. There would surely be aversion, and your screaming, hitting would be akusala. I love you James, but I really doubt that there is already the capacity for equmanimity that would allow you to be chopped 'n diced without akusala arising! :) Phil 52937 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:32pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Thank you for your reply, it was well written. >James: Samadhi, developed during sitting meditation, helps to subdue and supress the hindrances/defilements even while away from the meditation cushion. Therefore, ideally, satipatthana and samadhi should both be developed in tandem. When the hindrances/defilements are subdued, one can better see dhammas, like looking through a clear pool. The Buddha compared the hindrances to muddy water, grassy water, polluted water, cloudy water, wind-swept water etc. When the water (mind) is cleared of the hindrances/defilements (though only temporarily) the real work of satipatthana can begin. ... even with "right understanding" there can be some "dangers" to meditation if the hindrances haven't been properly subdued. Tep: Your reply shows that you have contemplated over these issues many times before. ....................... > James: The whole thing of a "calm mind" watching a "distracted mind" in order to make it calm seems strange to me. I don't think that that can really happen. We don't have two minds. Tep: I believe that the idea of a good mind watching over another mind is from MN 20. What do you think of the following MN 20 passage, "... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it" ? "Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress." [MN 20 :Vitakkasanthana Sutta. The Relaxation of Thoughts] Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Questions : > > > > Which of the two meditation streams is directed meditation, and > which > > of them is undirected? Or, are both directed ? > > James: Honestly, I have little idea what this author is talking > about when he describes the "wisdom leading to calm" path. The > whole thing of a "calm mind" watching a "distracted mind" in order > to make it calm seems strange to me. I don't think that that can > really happen. We don't have two minds. I linked this aricle > because of the dangers section, which is practical and suited the > discussion. I didn't intend to say that I agree with everything > this author says in regards to meditation. > > > (snipped) 52938 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directing and Misdirecting Mind/Connie(Dhammapada) lbidd2 Howard: "Hi again, Connie- I should have used the following translation: _____________________ 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow" Hi Howard and Connie, "Mind precedes mental states" doesn't make much sense to me. The trans. I have says, "Mind is the forerunner of all actions". This makes sense but I don't see it in the pali. Maybe Connie could give us a better translation. What does the commy say Connie? Btw, I agree with B. ~Nanamoli that "piti" is "happiness" and "sukha" is "bliss". "Sukha" is pleasant feeling. Somehow I don't think of happiness as a feeling, even though happiness is accompanied by pleasant feeling. Btw, is sukha the opposite of dukkha? If so, that would make dukkha a feeling. I couldn't find "sukhamanveti" in the dict. What's "manveti"? Also what does "mind-made" (manomayaa) mean? manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm dukkhamanveti cakka'm'va vahato pada'm manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm sukhamanveti chaayaa'va anapaayini Larry 52939 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. . buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Your posts (#52778 and #52802) are truly exceptional! I did not respond immediately because there were many "deep" points to ponder. Thank you for the time and energy you put into the writing. >N: And above all: cittas cannot be told to do this first, then that. ... ... It has to go along with detachment all the way, and that is against the current of life, as Kh Sujin said. There is the danger of thinking of a self who has to become proficient. >N: I was so grateful to be reminded in India that there is often an idea of self who is thinking or writing. We may wonder when it exactly comes up. I think when there can be more awareness and direct understanding it can be detected. But subtle and difficult for me to know precisely. Tep: Yes, full awareness and direct understanding, I think, are difficult to establish because we need the following: right exertion(samma- vayamo) & right mindfulness with right view (samma-ditthi) as the forerunner running in circle around right view, right resolve(samma sankappo), right speech, right action and right livelihood. [MN 117] ...................... N: ... kusala citta cannot be manipulated, because it is citta accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. And think of how many are needed for one moment of kusala, nineteen at least. They all are so busy performing their function during that extremely short time. Saddha has confidence in kusala, sati does not let the moment go by wasted, lightness and pliancy and wieldiness are needed for a supple functioning of citta and cetasikas in the wholesome way. Those who have developed jhana know the right conditions for jhanacittas that may continue even for a whole day. It always depends on conditions. Tep: Yes, Nina, you said it all very well. I also see clearly that those conditions, and the truth that they arise and dissolve, form a solid proof that the citta is anatta. This is a useful application of the Abhidhamma. .......................... >N : (referring to MN 20) ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering. The Blessed One said this, and the bhikkhus glad at heart, approved of his words. >N: The Commentary states that he has become most skillful as to the course of his thoughts and that the Buddha herewith wanted to show the characteristic of such skill. Formerly this bhikkhu did not have the thoughts he wished to have, and those he did not wish to have arose. But since he had become skilled it is different: what he wants to think of, he thinks of, and what he does not want to think of he does not think of. Tep: What is " skill "? Isn't it sanna (a trained perception, including memories)? Clearly to me, skills are not cittas. I think, sanna is a condition for consciousness(citta) to arise. Therefore, once he has become skilfull in thought relaxation, the monk has the right kind of sanna to get the job done, e.g. pahana sanna to 'abandon, destroy, dispels & wipe out' akusala vitakka (see AN X, 60). Is this understanding making sense to you? ................. >N: (acknowledging that "direct knowing" and "direct awareness" are on a higher plane above words and thoughts) But as I understand, patience and perseverance are needed, althout these do not come on command. No cai ron (a hot heart, or impatience) as we say in Thai. Tep: But it is difficult for me to see how patience and perseverance without concentration may lead to direct knowing & direct awareness. Why? "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." [AN XI.1] This sutta does not say patience and perseverance have knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as the reward. By the way, because 'Jai' = mind and 'Ron' = hot, thus a person with 'hot mind' does not know samadhi. .................. >N: Kh Sujin said: 'Instead of attending to the characteristics of realities there is thinking about them. But we should not have any expectations, otherwise it is me who would like to have progress.' I was glad of such reminders. Tep: Of course, any expectations during a contemplation(anupassana) of the characteristics of realities (e.g. the "All") would take the mind away from the object of sati to create mental formations. Thus, no progress may be expected. ................ >N: Being aware of one nama or rupa at a time: this cannot be realized immediately. It is quite a learning process, and yes of this we can say: in stages. It is paññaa that develops in stages, we do not have to think of steps to be taken. Tep: Sadhu! That has been my understanding too- panna has to be developed in stages. ............................. I will reply to the message # 52802 tomorrow. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > very useful input from you. > Nothing aggressive I could think of, no need for worry. (snipped) > ---------- > I continue later on. > Nina. > 52940 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directing and Misdirecting Mind/Connie(Dhammapada) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Connie) - In a message dated 11/28/05 9:08:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > > Howard: "Hi again, Connie- > I should have used the > following translation: > _____________________ > 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all > mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering > follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.2. Mind > precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all > mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness > follows him like his never-departing shadow" > > Hi Howard and Connie, > > "Mind precedes mental states" doesn't make much sense to me. The trans. > I have says, "Mind is the forerunner of all actions". This makes sense > but I don't see it in the pali. ==================== That was Ven. Buddharakkhita's translation (on ATI). Ven Thanissaro uses 'phenomena' in his rendering there. Elsewhere I recall having seen just 'states'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52941 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) nichiconn Hi, Larry, I don't have the Dhp Commentary, just the venerables Narada and Weragado Sarada's translations with stories and their comments. The story for the 1st is the blind (because in a prior life he'd blinded a woman who didn't want to pay him after he'd cured her vision in the first place) arahant who unintentionally killed the bugs he was pacing on. Narada talks about the retributive and continuative aspects of kamma; Sarada about Buddha's phenomonalism. For the 2nd, we read that thru his faith in Buddha, the dying (Brahmin) son of a stingy millionaire (who didn't want the expense of a doctor) was reborn in a heaven(ly state). Both writers talk about kamma and vipaka now. Narada also writes in the book's introduction that "The very first two stanzas briefly represent the ethico-philosophical system of the Buddha. The importance of the mind in assessing morality, the Buddhist law of moral causation (Kamma), the problem of pain and happiness, self-responsibility, etc., accompanied by two simple homely illustrations, find expression in these two verses. The two relevant stories clarify the points at issue. The very first line of each of these twin verses presents some difficulty, especially the term . Commentary gives a long interpretation. The two connected stories make the matter clear." A lot of places, Weragoda's paa.li differs from Narada's and the CSCD's and one just happens to be these first lines. W's text reads "dhammaa manopubba'ngamaa" instead of "manopubba'ngamaa" dhammaa". Also, "na'm sukhamanveti" in Weragoda's is "sukha.m na.m anveeti". He glosses sukha.m as happiness, na.m as that person, and anveeti as follows. PaliWords gives: anveti - follows or approaches. Btw, in The Pi.taka-Disclosure's paa.li glossary ~Nanamoli's entry for sukha reads: pleasure, pleasant, bliss; -indriya - p. faculty; -dukkha - p. and pain; -nimitta - sign of p.; -bhaagiya dhamma - idea dealing with p.; -vedanaa - p. feeling; -vedaniiya - to be felt as p.; -sa~n~naa - perception of p. I don't know about "better", but here are some other translations/versions of the verses: Acharya Buddharakkhita: 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow. Ajahn Munindo: 1 All states of being are determined by mind. It is mind that leads the way. Just as the wheel of the oxcart follows the hoof print of the animal that draws it, so suffering will surely follow when we speak or act impulsively from an impure state of mind. 2 All states of being are determined by mind. It is mind that leads the way. As surely as our shadow never leaves us, so well-being will follow when we speak or act with a pure state of mind. Bhadragaka: All qualities of life come from the mind. The mind is the principle. They are produced by the mind. If a person speaks or acts with an evil mind, suffering follows him, as the wheel follows the hoof of the beast. All qualities of life come from the mind. The mind is the principle. They are produced by the mind. If a person speaks or acts with a good mind, happiness follows him like an inseparable shadow. Chen: 127. (1) Mind is the fore-runner of (all evil) conditions. Mind is chief; and all that we are is mind-made. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the wagon. 128. (2) Mind is the fore-runner of (all evil) conditions. Mind is chief; and all that we are is mind-made. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him. David Evans: 1. Mind foreshadows all conditions; Mind presides, through mind they form. If one speaks or acts with thought corrupted Because of that an anguish stalks one, Like a wheel behind an ox-hoof. 2. Mind foreshadows all conditions; Mind presides, through mind they form. If one speaks or acts with reconciled thought Because of that a happiness haunts one, Like a shadow, never parted. F. Max Muller: 1. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheelfollows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage. 2. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him. unk: We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with an impure mind And trouble will follow you As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart. We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with a pure mind And happiness will follow you As your shadow, unshakable. John Richards: 1. Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a defiled mind is to draw pain after oneself, like a wheel behind the feet of the animal drawing it. 1 Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a peaceful mind, is to draw happiness after oneself, like an inseparable shadow. Juan Mascaro: 1What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind. If a man speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering follows him as the wheel of the cart follows the beast that draws the cart. 2What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind. Sanderson Beck: What we are is the result of what we have thought, is built by our thoughts, is made up of our thoughts. If one speaks or acts with an impure thought,suffering follows one, like the wheel of the cart follows the foot of the ox. What we are is the result of what we have thought, is built by our thoughts, is made up of our thoughts. If one speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows one, like a shadow that never leaves. Sathienphong Wannapok: Mind foreruns all mental conditions, Mind is chief, mind-made are they; If one speaks or acts with a wicked mind, Then suffering follows him Even as the wheel, the hoof of the ox. Mind foreruns all mental conditions, Mind is chief, mind-made are they; If one speaks or acts with a pure mind, Then happiness follows him Even as the shadow that never leaves. Harischandra Kaviratna: 1. All the phenomena of existence have mind as their precursor, mind as their supreme leader, and of mind are they made. If with an impure mind one speaks or acts, suffering follows him in the same way as the wheel follows the foot of the drawer (of the chariot). 2. All the phenomena of existence have mind as their precursor, mind as their supreme leader, and of mind are they made. If with a pure mind one speaks or acts, happiness follows him like his shadow that never leaves him. peace, connie ps. sorry, no answer for your other questions. [snip] Btw, is sukha the opposite of dukkha? If so, that would make dukkha a feeling. I couldn't find "sukhamanveti" in the dict. What's "manveti"? Also what does "mind-made" (manomayaa) mean? manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm dukkhamanveti cakka'm'va vahato pada'm manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm sukhamanveti chaayaa'va anapaayini 52942 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------------------------------- H: > I'm really not certain that I am understanding you, Ken. But in *case* you are saying that this sutta does not support jhana as a crucial aspect of the move towards awakening, then I think that you couldn't be more off base. ---------------------------------- Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I don't know why you are saying that. I think we have agreed in the past that many ariyans attained by bare insight. In other words, jhana was NOT an aspect - crucial or otherwise - of their 'move towards awakening.' ---------------------------------- H: > This sutta is perfectly clear. It gives a crystal clear picture of the path of practice, and very far from one-sided. And the reason that it gives for going to jhana is *exactly* that proceeding as indicated in the early part of the sutta is self-limiting due to the extreme bodily strain and resulting mental disturbance resulting from the effort being expended in such a "cold turkey" fashion. ----------------------------------- The way I see it, the early part describes the kind of thinking that is necessary for developing kusala and diminishing akusala. In practice, it is like the cowherd who guides and goads his cattle to keep them away from valuable crops. The Buddha says there is nothing wrong with that kind of thinking, but after a while it can become tiresome. Then he describes jhana absorption - which is not tiresome. The jhana meditator understands the principles of right thinking, but the hindrances do not arise and so he can relax. He is like a cowherd after the harvest season - he understands the principles involved, but there are no crops to worry about, and he can rest in the shade. ------------------------------------------------------------- H: > The initial work of guarding the senses plants the seed and cultivates the soil, but moistness is still lacking! The soil is too "dry". ------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree. The daily life of the bare insight worker is not the most "pleasant abiding" but it is adequate - as it was for most of the Buddha's disciples. ------------- H: > Attaining jhana solves that problem! And that is why right concentration, explicitly defined elsewhere as the first 4 jhanas, is 1/8 of the eightfold noble path. -------------- So I have to ask: have you changed your mind about attainment by bare- insight? Do you no longer think it is possible? Ken H 52943 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:21pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 321- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [n] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] Right understanding sees the danger of akusala and it conditions the development of kusala. When we still cling so much to our possessions and are stingy with regard to them it will be all the more difficult to become detached from the self. We should develop generosity in giving away useful things and also in praising those who deserve praise. We should see the value of all kinds of kusala. When the citta is kusala citta there is no stinginess, but stinginess can only be eradicated by the development of right understanding of any reality which appears. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52944 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) lbidd2 Hi Connie, Thanks for all the translations. Could you give a word for word literal trans. of all the words except "dhamma"? Also, does "Dhammapada" mean "dhamma foot"? Why does the dhammaa below end with a long a? Larry manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm dukkhamanveti cakka'm'va vahato pada'm manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm sukhamanveti chaayaa'va anapaayini 52945 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 321- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [n] htootintnaing [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Friends, These topics are daily life matter. We will be reading coming posts on envy, stinginess, regret and related matters. Depending on societies there might be some variation with regard to abundancy of these dhamma even though all these are quite common to all kinds of societies including regilious societies. But rarely some people naturally do not have envy. When he or she sees people who show their envy the person would be thinking the thing be strange. Example; when telling lies first appear first (jaataka or vinaya texts) people did not understand what 'lie' mean. Envy is a dhamma which is fruitless visitor who destroys the home of host. With respect, Htoo Naing 52946 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 578 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, As there is the cause there also is cessation. This cessation is because of eradication of the cause. The first two truths have been discussed. The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation of suffering. It is known as nirodha saccaa. As there are 60 places where tanhaa or craving originates, at these places that fire of craving also extinguishes. What are these 60 places? They have been discussed in samudaya saccaa or the truth of the cause of suffering. To repeat, they are 1. cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, mano eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind It is eye who sees that is who accepts sight. If one is mindful at eye and wisely attends at eye then there will not arise craving. Likewise ear, nose, tongue, body and mind are places where craving originates. 2. rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, mind-object/thought When one sees sight that sight serves as the source for arising of craving. If this is wisely attended then tanhaa would not arise. This also applies to other objects like sound, smell, taste, touches, and thoughts. 3. cakkhu-vinnaana, sota-v, ghana-v, jivha-v, kaya-v, mano-v These are 6 sense-consciousness. They are the first point that start perceiving and so they are the origin of craving and when this is wisely attended then craving would not arise. These 6 consciousness are eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue- consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness. 4. cakkhu-sam-phassa, sota-, ghana-, jivhaa-, kaya-, mano- eye-contact, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind These are 6 contacts or salamphassa. They are eye-contact, ear- contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, and mind- contact. This might be hard to recognize. But if mindful it is still possible that craving can be prevented. 5. cakkhu-sam-phassajaa vedanaa, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, mano feeling-born-of-eye-contact, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. This is feeling as a result of contact. If feelings are mindfully attended and wisely attended there is no way for tanhaa to arise. 6. rupa-sannaa,sadda-san,gandha-san,rasa-san, photthabba-san,mano-san sight-perception, sound, smell, taste, touches, thought-perception. When sight is perceived there is possibility that craving might arise. But if this is mindfully and wisely attended then there is no way for tanha to arise. This also applies to sound perception, smell perception, taste perception, touch perception and thought perception. If well guarded craving would not be able to enter. 7. rupa-sa`n-cetana, sadda-, gandha-, rasa-, photthabba-, dhamma- volition-at-sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, volition-at-thought. These are volitions and they all go to the object. If this is cognised and wisely attended then craving or tanha would not be able to approach mind, which otherwise would create more suffering. 8. rupa-tanha, sadda-tanha, gandha-tanha, rasa-tanha, photth-,dhamma- craving for sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, thought. These are already arisen dhamma because of opening of former gates or doors. But if one is still able to recognise that these craving enter the mind it is still possible to stop them not to create more problems. 9. rupa-vitakka, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma-vitakka application to sight, sound, smell, taste, touches, thought. These sight-application, sound-application etc etc are wandering thoughts on 6 objects. They all apply to their respective object. If they can be recognised then it is still possible to stop craving growing. 10. ruupa-vicaara, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba, dhamma-vicaara sustension to sight, sound, smell, taste, photthabba, dhamma. These are proliferation of wandering thoughts on objects already applied. These are the main factors that create clinging or upadaana, which again would create existence or bhava or becoming. As pannaa or wisdom arise (because of wise attention_yoniso manasikaara) there will not be any more craving at these 60 places. Not arising is like extinguishment of craving-fire and this is cessation of suffering. So this is the truth of cessation of suffering. This cessation is kilesa-nibbana or 'PEACE ARISEN FROM CLEARANCE OF DEFILEMENTS'. As soon as defilements are eradicated there is peace and this peace is felt by the current life if pannaa (arahatta magga panna) has arisen. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 52947 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Robert K - > > Thank you for giving a detailed explanation of the "mundane jhanas". > Let me summarize the key ideas you have elaborated (in quotations > below) along with my response. > > 1. R: "All mundane jhanas lead to accumulation- i.e. add to samsara. > This does not mean they are to be avoided rather that they > are not part of the path out of samsara which is unique to the > Buddha". > > Tep: I agree with that. But I'd like to make a note that I have not seen > even one sutta that teaches "mundane jhanas". All of the suttas I know, > either given by the Buddha or by the Arahants (e.g. Sariputta, > Moggallana, Ananda), are about the only kind of jhanas as taught by > the Buddha; i.e. the jhanas that are "part of the path out of samsara". > > My question (or "request") to you is : Can you prove me wrong, please? ++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Tep, I think the main thing is to establish that there are various types of concentration that are samma –right, and if we can agree on this then to establish which are part of the noble eight-fold path leading out samsara. There are several suttas that give the 4 rupa jhanas as right concentration, and these are cited often on this list. There are also suttas where the eight mudane jhanas are given Then there are many suttas like the following, whichdo not get cited so often: I quoted in an earlier post the Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html There is also the Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of Walshe Four concentrative meditations (samadhi bhavana): A leads to happiness here and now (dithadhamma-suka) b. Gaining knowledge and vision (nana-dassana-patilabha) c. Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati-sampajana) d. The destruction of the corruptions. (asavanama khaya) i. How does this practice (a)lead to happiness here and now? Here, a monk practices the four Jhanas ii. How does it (b) lead to the gaining of knowledge and vision? Here, a monk attends to the perception of light, he fixes his mind to the perception of day, by night as by day, by day as by night. In this way, with a mind clear and unclouded, he develops a state of mind that is full of brightness. iii. How does it ©lead to mindfulness and clear awareness? Here, a monk knows feelings as they arise remain and vanish. iv. How does this(d) practice to the destruction of corruptions? Here, a monk abides in the contemplation of the rise and fall of the five aggregates of grasping: "This is material form, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; these are feelings, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; this perception, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; these are mental formations, this is its arising, this is its ceasing; this is consciousness, this is its arising, this is its ceasing." Note that (b) is a special type of samatha meditation giving powers of mundane vision. Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas are given a specific category different from the types of samadhi which result in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements. +++++++++ here is another sutta http://www.vipassana.info/117-mahacattarisaka-e.htm III. 2. 7.Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m- (117) The Longer discourse on the forty I heard thus. Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with these seven factors is called noble right concentration together with the means and the accessories. No mention of the 4 jhanas here…. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA III (5.7) Mahaasa.laayatanikasutta.m. 149. The Longer Discourse on the six spheres http://www.vipassana.info/149-mahasalayatanika-e.htm To someone who learns and realizes, eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of eye contact, as they really are. Attachment does not arise for eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of that eye contact. This one not attached, unyoked and not deluded, abiding seeing the danger does not accumulate in the five holding masses for the future. His craving, interest and greed, to be here and there in the future, cease. His bodily and mental troubles, anxiety and laments cease. Further he experiences bodily and mental pleasantness. Whatever his view, it becomes right view. Whatever his thoughts, they become right thoughts. Whatever his speech it becomes right speech. Whatever his actions, they become right actions. Whatever his effort, it becomes right effort. Whatever his mindfulness, it becomes right mindfulness. Whatever his concentration, it becomes RIGHT CONCENTRATION. Again right concentration, but no jhanas mentioned.. ++++++++++++++++++++== How is insight developed and nibbana attained: From the digha nikaya Sangiti sutta "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established [he attains nibban]; b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it; or e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established. Notice the first 4 ways of liberation do not mention gaining mundane jhana. Robertk 52948 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:50am Subject: Re: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. matheesha333 Hi Phil, I think the question you asked goes to the heart of the matter. P:When a beginner sits, what > is going on is surely not samma samadhi, right? The beginners sits, > eager to have some sort of profound experience, thinking about some > object, concentrating on it. That is not samma samadhi. When does it > become samma samadhi, how does it become samma samadhi? By dint of > having wrong concentration, and sticking with the wrong concentration, > there is a breakthrough and it comes right concentration, it becomes > sammasamadhi? I just don't see how that link happens. I just can't sit > and concentrate on something and feel like it's kusala. There is such > hunger for results, for comfort. "For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development.1 [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. Revised: Tuesday 2005-11-15 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn149.html M: As can be seen from the above and other suttas we are talking about the NOBLE (Ariya) eightfold path only in relation to an enlightened being. It is impossible that a worldling will suddenly be able to have Right View. So to have Right View one would have to be IMO an fully enlightened being/arahath…perhaps a sotapanna, but even the latter would have some avijja. The sense of self/avijja disappears completly only in an arahath. So that would suggest that all their efforts before this were wrong effort? They have been instructed to go to jungles,ordain etc. So all of this would be tainted with akusala and sense of self/clinging and needing achievement. How to overcome this conundrum? We start with mundane right view. Through study, meditation, practice of sila, generosity, changing our outlook towards the world ('samma' sankappa), livelihood, we work towards the Right - 8 fold path. We develop each of the factors to their maximum potential, making defilements less and less as we go along (kusala arising more and more if you like). Obviously there is flucuation between kusala and akusala, one conditioning the the other, giving rise to either one, in intricate ways. But the momentum takes us closer and closer from the mundane Right to supramundane Right. It is through satipattaana, (excuse me if i say vipassana), that there is direct understanding of the dhammas. This will lead to understanding of the three characterisitcs, leading to the panna of a sotapanna which is the minimum level we could call someone's View as being Right. This then conditions everything else in turn and the jhaanas attained will be conditioned as well. The 8 fold path contains so many elements that it is not possible that all of them will arise spontaneously without some effort. (These elements also condition each other in a myriad of ways. For example samadhi will make it easier to keep sila as defilements arise less, samadhi will make direct experiencing easier and help the development of right view) That person will be able to go beyond the jhaanas into the unconditioned after this. The issuing forth of the NOBLE eightfold path into Right Insight (Samma gnana) and Right release (Samma vimukti) will happen in a split second IMO (the 10 stage path will last only a second). This goes through past all of the jhaanas in that moment. A very difficult thing i would imagine if jhaanas have not been attained before. The experiences of phalasamawatha will become accessible. I'm not sure if that answers your question, but I have felt progress ever since i started. I have less dukkha, have more insight, more nekkhamma. So this works for me and lot of other people i know. metta Matheesha 52949 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/29/05 12:41:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ---------------------------------- > H: >I'm really not certain that I am understanding you, Ken. But in > *case* you are saying that this sutta does not support jhana as a > crucial aspect of the move towards awakening, then I think that you > couldn't be more off base. > ---------------------------------- > > Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I don't know why you are saying > that. I think we have agreed in the past that many ariyans attained > by bare insight. In other words, jhana was NOT an aspect - crucial > or otherwise - of their 'move towards awakening.' ----------------------------------------- Howard: No, Ken. I have long taken the Buddha to have defined right concentration, 1/8 of the eightfold noble path, to be the first 4 jhanas. That remains my understanding. ------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------------------- > H: >This sutta is perfectly clear. It gives a crystal clear picture > of the path of practice, and very far from one-sided. And the reason > that it gives for going to jhana is *exactly* that proceeding as > indicated in the early part of the sutta is self-limiting due to the > extreme bodily strain and resulting mental disturbance resulting from > the effort being expended in such a "cold turkey" fashion. > ----------------------------------- > > The way I see it, the early part describes the kind of thinking that > is necessary for developing kusala and diminishing akusala. In > practice, it is like the cowherd who guides and goads his cattle to > keep them away from valuable crops. The Buddha says there is nothing > wrong with that kind of thinking, but after a while it can become > tiresome. > > Then he describes jhana absorption - which is not tiresome. The jhana > meditator understands the principles of right thinking, but the > hindrances do not arise and so he can relax. He is like a cowherd > after the harvest season - he understands the principles involved, > but there are no crops to worry about, and he can rest in the shade. ----------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha puts forward the jhanas as the means to overcome the tiredness of body and mind. ----------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > H: >The initial work of guarding the senses plants the seed and > cultivates the soil, but moistness is still lacking! The soil is > too "dry". > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > I disagree. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ok. :-) ----------------------------------------------- The daily life of the bare insight worker is not the > > most "pleasant abiding" but it is adequate - as it was for most of > the Buddha's disciples. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha never talked in such a way, and never talked about being a "dry-insight worker". --------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >Attaining jhana solves that problem! And that is why right > concentration, explicitly defined elsewhere as the first 4 jhanas, is > 1/8 of the eightfold noble path. > -------------- > > So I have to ask: have you changed your mind about attainment by bare- > insight? Do you no longer think it is possible? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall having taken such a position. If I ever did, then, yes, I certainly have changed my mind. But as far as I recall, I have always considered right concentration to be an indispensable element of the path, and a sine qua non for awakening. In particular, I think the Buddha makes it clear the the 4th jhana makes the mind malleable and properly prepared for the work of investigation of dhammas. --------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52950 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >N: Dear smallchap and other friends, > Yes, smallchap, also in your last post to me. I was just away for a few days and now I have to delay answering mails. I won't forget. > S: No hurry. Please take your time. smallchap 52951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana nilovg Hi smallchap, op 26-11-2005 02:27 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: > > S: Thank you very much for quoting Kh Sujin' Survey on Paramatha > Dhammas and providing the link. What Kh Sujin said on right > concentration is in agreement with what the Buddha defines as noble > right concentration, i.e. right concentration accompanying the other > seven factors, with right view as forerunner. Does it mean that one > should not practise conventional samadhi? ------- N: Perhaps you mean by conventional samadhi mundane jhaana? Or just focussing on one object? I think you mean the latter. I think there is no should or should not, because whatever one is inclined to do is conditioned already by one's accumulated tendencies. But right understanding should be emphasized whatever one is doing. Mental development, bhaavanaa includes samatha and vipassanaa, and there cannot be any mental development without paññaa. Daana and siila can be performed with or without paññaa, but this cannot be said of bhaavanaa. In the same section of Survey, Kh Sujin gives a great deal of attention to the meditation subjects of jhaana. With regard to the earth kasina she explains that if paññaa does not arise while paying attention to earth, there is akusala citta that desires to think of earth or to focus on earth. Thus, mere concentration or focussing on one point is not a guarantee for kusala citta. Jhaana developed in the right way is a level of kusala that is higher than kusala of the sensesphere like daana. ------- S: If so [if one should not practise conventional concentration], how do we reconcile > this with what Ven. Ananda said in Yuganaddha Sutta: > > "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > ..............." N: I find this sutta very helpful, but we should consider all four ways. It shows that depending on people's inclinations they develop first jhana and then insight, or first insight, then jhana, or both at the same time, or only insight. The fourth way deals with the imperfections of insight. When we read suttas it may seem that people are told to do this or that but the Buddha knew how anatta people's inclinations are. They cannot develop samatha on command, but he praised those who could develop jhaana and insight. The development of jhaana alone is not enough, it does not eradicate defilements. I quote from my Abh in Daily life: ------- S: For the sake of discussion, what do you think, is there more akusala > citta in one who is engaged in mundane concentration than one who is > planning a trip to India? ------ N: We cannot tell, it depends on the citta at a particular moment. Planning for India: there are countless cittas arising and falling away. There may be expectations, that is lobha. Or one sees the value of payting respect to the Buddha at those places, as he had said himself. One understands that the greatest respect to the Buddha is a moment of right awareness and understanding of what appears now. As to mundane concentration, see above. Does this answer your questions? Nina. 52952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member nilovg Hi Susan, welcome here. It is best to begin asking a question, any question, in order to get involved and share what we learn. Nina. op 29-11-2005 00:47 schreef susan op sues.greenbank@...: > I just joined the group this evening and thought I'd introduce myself. I have > been trying to follow the Buddhist path for nearly a year now and it's a > subject I love reading about too and would like to involve myself in > discussions and sharing experiences. 52953 From: "ashkenn2k" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana ashkenn2k Hi Howard > > There was no emphasis on tiredness of the body through > > thinking until the paragraph you quoted. > > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, so what? > ----------------------------------- K: Looking at a sutta is not about just looking at those we like or think that support our believe. It must be seen as a whole. The emphasis on this sutta is thoughts and then after tiredness the Buddha still talk about pondering over kusala thoughts because it is important. > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > I fail to grasp a point of value here, Ken. The Buddha said in this sutta what he said. He introduced the jhanas at the relevant point and said what he needed to say. > ------------------------------------- k: Buddha usually introduce jhanas at the end and not at the begining. The begining is always about the other seven noble factor. I feel it is impt to note that he obtain enlightment upon coming out of the jhanas and not during jhanas. As I said earlier if the jhanas is the same as those he learn from the two Brahim masters, he will have been enlighted so much earlier. Jhanas described in this sutta are different, they are not mundane if not all the devas in the immaterial and material worlds would have been Noble Ones. He would not have taught AN (IV, 123), The Jhanas and Rebirth if mundane and supramundane jhanas are the same. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see MN 19 as making multiple points, all eminently worthwhile. > ---------------------------------------- k: They are not multiple point, they just point to right understanding and that will eventually lead to enlightement. Just like what you quoted about mind being the forerunner likewise right understanding is the forerunner for one to be eventually to be enlighted > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > The first 4 jhanas are what they are. They are like petrol/gas that one puts in the car or, better, like engine oil that one uses for lubrication. If one doesn't know how to drive or if the tires are flat or the steering column is broken, then no fuel and no lubricant will enable the trip to be made. > ----------------------------------------- k: What if the gas/petrol is not the correct one, we end up stalling it. Hence the correct one is impt and that must be the result of right understanding as emphasis in the sutta Ken O 52954 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:42am Subject: The kamma of wrong speech (was Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > > Hi James (and all) > > > Phil: Technical question - if we commit akusala kamma such as > wrong > > speech without intent, is it not still akusala kamma? > > > > James: This question isn't worded quite right: It should be: if we > > commit wrong speech without intent, is it still akusala kamma? > And > > the answer is: no, it is not akusala kamma. Intent is what > creates > > kamma, as the Buddha taught. > > Ph: But when it comes to Dhamma (and dhammas) is "intent" the same > intent that we understood conventionally? That's what I'm wondering > about. I know you're not a cetasika kinda guy, but I wonder what > cetasika "intent" is? I have a hunch that the intent that does or > doesn't give kammic weight to a deed of thought, speech or action is > not thinking about what we want to do. It is something subtler, far > more momentary, something related to cetana. Again, wanting to stay > technical here. (If anyone would like to add commments about > this "intent" cetasika, it would be appreciated) James: Yeah, I am not a cetasika kinda guy. I still find that concept of cittas to be rather clumsy. And I can't help you much with this train of thought either. You have entered the zone of ANALYSIS PARALYSIS! ;-)) You know what intent is- you experience it everyday. For example, you intend to pick up a pencil and then you do it: That is intent. But now you are searching for a deeper explanation of intent because your analysis has made you unsure if you really know intent or not. "There must be more to it!" you think. So you have sent out an SOS for someone to tell you what you already know. This is analysis paralysis. > > >> James: There is a story in the Canon, I don't know the sutta, of > a > > monk who was enlightened who spoke very harshly to his fellow > monks- > > even calling them names and degrading them. These monks got upset > > and went to the Buddha to complain. The Buddha explained that > this > > monk was not committing wrong speech because he had no intention > to > > do harm- his speech was harsh because of habit formed from past > > accumulations. The story ends there but what do you think > happened > > after that? Was this monk kicked out of the sangha? Did he have > to > > get lectures periodically from the Buddha about right speech? Did > > he have to confess his sins of wrong speech to the sangha? I > don't > > think so. In other words the Buddha told the monks: "That is the > > way he is. Deal with it- with wisdom." > > Ph: Interesting story. I would like to see it. (Not because I > don't believe you.) I would be careful about comparing myself to a > monk sitting in the presence of the Buddha, though. Maybe the monk > had purer accumulations than you or I do, and the past accumulated > habits were just playing out, the way they play out for sotapannas, > who still do akusala because of past accumulated habits, but not to > the degree of transgression. Something like that, I don't know. I > think we can become too confident by comparing our situations and > our understanding to those that we come across in suttas. My > opinion, only. James: No offense intended Phil, but I think that sometimes you mistake self-depreciation for humility. Humility is not being boastful, it doesn't mean thinking you can't possibly accomplish greatness. But really, I blame KS for this line of thinking. I have seen it mentioned several times in her talks. Phil, you write, "I would be careful about comparing myself to a monk sitting in the presence of the Buddha, though." And I think to myself, "Why? What's so different about me and that monk? Aren't we both humans?" But then you continue with, "Maybe the monk had purer accumulations than you or I do," Ahhhh…purer accumulations. Well, we can thank Buddhaghosa for this line of thinking when he described the Buddhasasana as ending with different people of different accumulations every one thousand years. Obviously, in your eyes, I can't argue this: Buddhaghosa was a living god and I am just a living turd. ;-)) But maybe you can use your reason to see the foolishness of Buddhaghosa's statement. Why would the monks at the first council bother to memorize and recite the Pali Canon for future generations if they knew that those future generations wouldn't have the accumulations to practice it? Why were Sariputta and Ananada often approaching the Buddha with concerns about continuing the sasana for future generations if they knew that no one in the future would be able to practice it? Doesn't make much sense to me. > > And if a monk killed a chicken because in the past he had the > habit of doing so, would he be absolved of kammic guilt by the same > logic? Of course akusala kamma patha (ie kamma of the level of > transgression) of wrong speech is not as shocking as akusala kamma > patha of killing, but technically speaking the same rules apply, > don't they? James: I guess killing is non-habit forming. ;-)) > > > > > > Phil: For example, James, if you were to reread some of your posts > > that caused offense do you think you might find that there was > > intent to hurt buried in them, though you weren't aware of it at > the > > time? > > > > James: Now, this is getting rather personal, and that isn't such a > > good idea, but since you have asked in a genuine matter I will try > > to explain—and you can accept what I say or not. > > phil: again, interested in staying technical. When we are talking > Dhamma, I'm interested in talking in terms of paramattha dhammas (or > nama and rupa, if you prefer.) The other day you quoted a good F. > Scott Fitzgerald quote to Sarah, about balancing two conflicting (?) > ways of thought without going mad, or words to that effect. James: Glad you liked the quote, here it is again, "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."- F. Scott Fitzgerald. Meaning > that we need to balance conventional realities and ultimate > realities - you thought Sarah was tilting way too far toward > discussing in ultimate terms all the time. I know what you mean, but > I think I am tilting in the ultimate reality direction as well. We > all have our friends and aquaintances that we can yack with about > conventionally-termed topics. DSG is the rare opportunity to talk in > Dhamma terms, I think. Don't want to go too far, so I appreciate the > Fitzgerald quote. > > > > > No, I do not > > intend to hurt anyone with my harsh speech. I speak harshly for > two > > reasons: (1) My parents speak harshly so I picked up the habit; > (2) > > I was verbally abused for several years so I picked up the habit > to > > defend myself verbally. > > You know how much I love those e-mails from your father. I had a > chance to see a doozy off-list that hasn't been posted here. So, > technically speaking, this verbal self-defence of yours cannot be > wrong speech because it is conditioned by your parents speech or > others' harsh speech? I wonder if this is true. If someone slaps you > in the face, and you slap them back, isn't that akusala kamma patha > on your part? If someone kills your friend, and you kill their > friend, isn't that akusala kamma patha? If someone calls you an > asshole and you call them an asshole back, isn't that akusala kamma > patha? I think so. The conditions there are much more direct, but I > think the same rule applies even if the conditions are further > removed. Again, just my speculating on technical aspects. > > (If anyone else would like to add their comments on this point, it > would be appreciate.) > > > > > > Some may look at my speech, > > know that I meditate, and see some sort of dissonance there. They > > may think, "Well, look at James! Obviously, meditation doesn't do > a > > person really any good!" Of course they can think what they want > > but I know better. Meditation saved my life. If it wasn't for > > meditation I'm sure I would be dead today- just like my brother > and > > sister. > > Praise Buddha! (I say that sincerely.) > > > > > The Buddha said that even if a person was cutting you apart from > > limb to limb, if you had a mind of hate toward that person you > would > > not be practicing his teachings. I agree with that. If someone > was > > cutting me apart limb from limb I wouldn't hate him, but I would > > want to escape and protect myself. If I had to scream, hit him, > or > > call him dirty names to protect myself, I would do that. But I > > wouldn't hate him at that moment. > > Again, "hate" in Dhamma terms is dosa, aversion. James: No, aversion is not hate. They may have the same word in Pali but they are two different things. Of course I would feel aversion, but I don't think I would feel hate- at least not at that moment. Maybe later, if I am still alive, and my arms and legs are cut off, I would feel some hate toward that person. But then I would do some samatha meditation until that hate went away! ;-)) There would > surely be aversion, and your screaming, hitting would be akusala. I > love you James, but I really doubt that there is already the > capacity for equmanimity that would allow you to be chopped 'n diced > without akusala arising! :) James: I love you too, but that isn't a license to be condescending to me. I told you what I think and I told you you can believe it or not. I'm not going to go to great lengths to defend myself. Phil, this has been nice chatting with you but I think I will beg off anyone posts on this thread. They take too long and are emotionally draining. Hope you understand. > > Phil > Loving-kindness, James 52955 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:44am Subject: Is The Foundation of Sujin a lay-movement? (Was: Re: Directed and Undire jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: ... Hallo James, Sarah, Jon "The Buddha prophesized that in the future when people lose respect and reverence for five things it will be a sign that the Dhamma is degenerating. What five? The Buddha, his teachings, the community of enlightened and ordained people, the monastic training and discipline, and jhána." SN 16.13 http://www.volny.cz/chandako/text/article_samath_vipasana.html Joop: SN 16.13 is clear, (the text above is not a quote but an abstract); Bhikkhu Bodhi states in footnote 314 at his translation: "A parallel passage at AN III 247 repeats the first four causes but replaces the fifth by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'." The importance of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha is evident. But what about "the discipline", I think the two hundred and more rules for monks are meant; but what have we - laypersons - to do with that? We have our five or eight precepts. I was thinking about that point and the consequence of my guess that monastic life has had it's longest time and that it has (in its orthodox form) no change to increase in Western countries; I thought: we need lay-movements in Theravada. And at that moment I noticed that in fact that The Foundation of Sujin is a lay-movement! Perhaps her ideas are not hundred percent my ideas but the formulae is good, this organization-form is what we need in the future. I only know there is something (an organizatiom? a building?) with the name 'Foundation' in Bangkok. Perhaps Sarah or John (or others) can give me some information about it? Metta Joop 52956 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:59am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James - > > Thank you for your reply, it was well written. James: Thanks! > > >James: Samadhi, developed during sitting meditation, helps to > subdue and supress the hindrances/defilements even while away from > the meditation cushion. Therefore, ideally, satipatthana and samadhi > should both be developed in tandem. When the > hindrances/defilements are subdued, one can better see dhammas, > like looking through a clear pool. The Buddha compared the > hindrances to muddy water, grassy water, polluted water, cloudy water, > wind-swept water etc. When the water (mind) is cleared of the > hindrances/defilements (though only temporarily) the real work of > satipatthana can begin. ... even with "right understanding" > there can be some "dangers" to meditation if the hindrances haven't > been properly subdued. > > Tep: Your reply shows that you have contemplated over these issues > many times before. James: Thanks, but actually I feel that it is only recently that the Buddha's path of practice has become clear to me. I had to get rid of a lot of my prior "vipassana conditioning" in order to see what the Buddha so clearly explained. > ....................... > > > James: The whole thing of a "calm mind" watching a "distracted > mind" in order to make it calm seems strange to me. I don't think that > that can really happen. We don't have two minds. > > Tep: I believe that the idea of a good mind watching over another mind > is from MN 20. What do you think of the following MN 20 passage, > "... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his > awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and > concentrates it" ? > > "Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the > drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention > to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought- fabrication with > regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his > mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, > unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery > over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he > wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has > severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right > penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress." > > [MN 20 :Vitakkasanthana Sutta. The Relaxation of Thoughts] James: I think that this is just conventional speech to explain the process of subduing the thoughts. There isn't really one mind beating-up another mind into submission. Take for example this quote from the Buddha, "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations." This sounds like the Buddha is saying his mind is one thing and that he is another by stating "I directed it". Who is this "I" directing his mind? But again, this is just conventional speech used for pragmatic purposes. The problem I had with the author's description is that he wasn't using conventional speech for pragmatic purposes, he was actually saying that there are two minds and that one has influence over the other. This is a strange idea which smacks of atta belief (maybe). > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ====== Metta, James 52957 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Ken H. (and Christine), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > ---------------------------------- > H: > I'm really not certain that I am understanding you, Ken. But in > *case* you are saying that this sutta does not support jhana as a > crucial aspect of the move towards awakening, then I think that you > couldn't be more off base. > ---------------------------------- > > Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I don't know why you are saying > that. I think we have agreed in the past that many ariyans attained > by bare insight. In other words, jhana was NOT an aspect - crucial > or otherwise - of their 'move towards awakening.' > > ---------------------------------- Didn't Bhikkhu Bodhi write an aricle to this group about how a person can become a sotapanna without jhana but that some level of jhana is required for the attainments of once-returner, non- returner, and arahant? Maybe Christine can link us to that article? She is the woman with the magic links!! ;-)) Metta, James 52958 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:58am Subject: Is The Foundation of Sujin a lay-movement? (Was: Re: Directed and Undire buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > ... > > Hallo James, Sarah, Jon Hi Joop, This post is addressed to me primarily but I'm afraid that you won't find a sympathetic ear in me. I very much believe that we need a monastic community- and for a lay-community to rise up and usurp the monastic community would be disastrous. It would spell the end of the sasana, as the Buddha said. Buddhism needs people who forsake the householder life, with its sensual pleasures, for a life of renunciation. Those renunciates keep the dhamma alive and help to pass it on to future generations. Actually, I wanted to become a monk (and probably still do to some extent), but consequences got in the way. So, I have to live with that. I could go into denial and start thinking "Well, who needs to be a monk anyway? Monks aren't that important. I can just stay home and practice the dhamma." This attitude reminds me of a song lyric by Eminem, "You sound like a pissed-off rapper who never made it." ;-)) If we are honest with ourselves, I suspect that many in this group, since it is so advanced in the dhamma, feel a type of "spiritual depression" because circumstances (either personal or global) didn't allow us to ordain. Anyone who truly feels the call of dhamma also feels the call to ordain- it is a natural consequence, just as it was for the Buddha.* But, there is always the future or future lives. Do as much as you can do now. Joop, you also write "And at that moment I noticed that in fact that The Foundation of Sujin is a lay-movement! Perhaps her ideas are not hundred percent my ideas but the formulae is good, this organization-form is what we need in the future." I could not possibly disagree with you more!!! I would give you my true thoughts about KS and her Foundation but I promised Sarah off-list that I wouldn't talk about that anymore. Write to me off-list if you want to know my opinion. Metta, James *These comments will probably inspire a lot of debate (in you and others) which I couldn't possibly engage in right now. 52959 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:16am Subject: Away for Almost Two Weeks upasaka_howard Hi, all - We're leaving for the Dallas, TX area early tomorrow for the birth of our 2nd granddaughter (on December 2). I will have some internet access there but not much time for availing myself of it. I will try to keep in touch, though, as possible. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. nilovg Hi Phil, op 26-11-2005 00:18 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> Akusala is reality, but >> sati cannot be conascent with akusala citta; sati can arise > afterwards and >> be aware of its characteristic. >> > Aware of the characterisic that *has fallen* away? I wonder how > this can be. Is this similar to the topic that I heard in one of the > talks - when a sense door object has fallen away, it has fallen > away, but somehow it is still there, copied or carried on or > something, to be object of mind door process? ---------- N: Yes, the word photocopy was used. So clear, vivid, just like the real. It is like seeing now, it sees visible object. You notice seeing, and while you notice it, it is so vivid, so present, but it has just fallen away. Or visible object appearing now while your eyes are open. Instead of noticing there can be a citta with sati that is mindful, but it arises after seeing has fallen away, not at the same time as seeing. Seeing falls away but extremely shortly after it has fallen away there is another process with seeing. It arises again and again and in between there is noticing it, or, if there are conditions mindfulness of its characteristic. No need to think of catching it or thinking of seeing or of its falling away. The same with dosa. It arises and falls away and there are other processes again with dosa. In between sati can be aware of its characteristic. This is different from thinking of:I have dosa, there is dosa. But also such thinking can arise in between. -------- Ph: Otherwise, it seems that if there is awareness of akusala that has > fallen away, it is just thinking/remembering and I don't know how > this could ever be direct awareness. Helpful in stemming the flow of > akusala for a moment, yes, but direct awareness? ------ N: It can grow from rightly considering its characteristic and no need to think: it has fallen away, or, this is remembrance. -------- Ph: Question: At this moment I pay attention to it that this is dosa > and that >> lobha. >> >> Sujin: This is thinking, and when you know this, thinking will > stop. > > I think it would just be more thinking that thinking has stopped. > My gut feeling these days is that thinking never stops. ----------- N: She means: when it is time for awareness there is no need for words. And also thinking can be known without words. It has a characteristic different from seeing. What is also helpful to know; when we do not think with the objective of dana, sila, samatha,or about the Dhamma, thinking is akusala. ------- PH:Even > vipasanna-nanas and jhanas and other sublime attainments are nothing > more than a very refined, exquisitely refined, form of thinking. I > know this is wrong but it's how I'm feeling - there is beginner's > doubt these days. ------ N: We use the term thinking in different ways. When we are more precise vitakka cetasika and vicaara cetasika perform their functions. Higher jhanas do not need these. There is right thinking as a Path factor. ------- Ph: You mentionned when you got back to India that you'd be posting > something about thinking, thinking, thinking all the time. Has it > been posted and I missed it? ----- N: We discussed thinking and awareness in India. I shall write more about it. BTW, you were wondering about intentedness or intention, this is cetana cetasika, volition. It arises with many cittas, also with vipakacittas. In the Vinaya a monk doubted whether he had performed akusala kamma patha when he pushed someone with death as consequence. The Buddha asked: did you intend to kill him? No. Then it is not akusala kamma patha. Nina. 52961 From: nina Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no. 1 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for Almost Two Weeks nilovg Hi Howard, best wishes for the grandchild. This is parting: about jhana texts, please would you not read Rob's post to Tep? He quoted many good texts about righ concentration. It starts: Worth considering. Nina. op 29-11-2005 20:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > We're leaving for the Dallas, TX area early tomorrow for the birth of > our 2nd granddaughter (on December 2). 52963 From: connie Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 0:54pm Subject: Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) nichiconn You're welcome, Larry, pada (paada, patha) - step, foot, track; path, way, kind, place, position; case, lot, principle, ingredient, item, thing, element; word, verse, line, stanza, sentence; basis, principle; section, portion, part sure there must be more! but "dhamma foot"? sounds funny, but it can work. foundation, stand. apada - no foot(ing); trackless; without desire. I barely know any of the grammar rules but sometimes the verse and prose ways of putting something use different forms of a word for whatever reason... like a long vowel sound taking more time so we don't trip over a missing step when reading/reciting? I think dhamma is singular and dhammaa plural. Weragoda walks us thru the verses with dhammaa as 'experience'; is that singular or are we to step back and see the individual pieces of that if we're not sure the shoe fits? Hope you don't mind if I pretty much just follow Weragoda here: manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa thought precedes experience manose.t.thaa manomayaa thought is predominant mind-made are they manasaa ce padu.t.thena thought therefore, if (with) corrupted bhaasati va karoti vaa (one) speaks or acts or tato na'm dukkhamanveti due to it that person suffering follows cakka'm'va vahato-pada'm as the cart wheel draught animal's foot manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena thought therefore, if (with) pure bhaasati va karoti vaa tato na'm sukhamanveti due to it that person happiness follows chaayaa'va anapaayini as the shadow not departing peace, connie 52964 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:02pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhatrue Hi Robert K., (and Tep), An interesting assortment of suttas you have here. I know that you address Tep but I couldn't resist responding (especially after reading Nina's recent post to Howard). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Tep, > I think the main thing is to establish that there are various types > of concentration that are samma –right, and if we can agree on this > then to establish which are part of the noble eight-fold path > leading out samsara. > There are several suttas that give the 4 rupa jhanas as right > concentration, and these are cited often on this list. There are > also suttas where the eight mudane jhanas are given > Then there are many suttas like the following, whichdo not get cited > so often: > I quoted in an earlier post the Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html > There is also the Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of > Walshe > Four concentrative meditations (samadhi bhavana): > A leads to happiness here and now (dithadhamma-suka) > b. Gaining knowledge and vision (nana-dassana-patilabha) > c. Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati-sampajana) > d. The destruction of the corruptions. (asavanama khaya) > i. How does this practice (a)lead to happiness here and now? Here, a > monk practices the four Jhanas > ii. How does it (b) lead to the gaining of knowledge and vision? > Here, a monk attends to the perception of light, he fixes his mind > to the perception of day, by night as by day, by day as by night. In > this way, with a mind clear and unclouded, he develops a state of > mind that is full of brightness. > iii. How does it ©lead to mindfulness and clear awareness? Here, a > monk knows feelings as they arise remain and vanish. > iv. How does this(d) practice to the destruction of corruptions? > Here, a monk abides in the contemplation of the rise and fall of the > five aggregates of grasping: "This is material form, this is its > arising, this is its ceasing; these are feelings, this is its > arising, this is its ceasing; this perception, this is its arising, > this is its ceasing; these are mental formations, this is its > arising, this is its ceasing; this is consciousness, this is its > arising, this is its ceasing." > > Note that (b) is a special type of samatha meditation giving powers > of mundane vision. > > Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas are given a > specific category different from the types of samadhi which result > in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements. James: This concentration that sees the arising and falling of the five aggregates comes from the cultivation of jhana first. It isn't actually jhana, but it comes from jhana- just as when the Buddha became enlightened. > > +++++++++ > here is another sutta > http://www.vipassana.info/117-mahacattarisaka-e.htm > III. 2. 7.Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m- > (117) The Longer discourse on the forty > I heard thus. > > Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means > and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, > right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right > mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with > these seven factors is called noble right concentration together > with the means and the accessories. > > No mention of the 4 jhanas here…. James: The Buddha obviously didn't teach this sutta. There is even a warning at the end of the sutta that no one is to contradict this sutta or there will be dire consequences: "Because there would be blame, anger and reproach.' The Blessed One said thus and those bhikkhu delighted in the words of the Blessed One." The Buddha actually said that he would get angry at someone for contradicting his teaching? I don't think so! This style of reproach is found in many Mahayana suttas because they aren't authentic either. > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA III > (5.7) Mahaasa.laayatanikasutta.m. > 149. The Longer Discourse on the six spheres > > http://www.vipassana.info/149-mahasalayatanika-e.htm > To someone who learns and realizes, eye, forms, eye-consciousness, > eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither > unpleasant nor pleasant born of eye contact, as they really are. > Attachment does not arise for eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye > contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither > unpleasant nor pleasant born of that eye contact. This one not > attached, unyoked and not deluded, abiding seeing the danger does > not accumulate in the five holding masses for the future. His > craving, interest and greed, to be here and there in the future, > cease. His bodily and mental troubles, anxiety and laments cease. > Further he experiences bodily and mental pleasantness. Whatever his > view, it becomes right view. Whatever his thoughts, they become > right thoughts. Whatever his speech it becomes right speech. > Whatever his actions, they become right actions. Whatever his > effort, it becomes right effort. Whatever his mindfulness, it > becomes right mindfulness. Whatever his concentration, it becomes > RIGHT CONCENTRATION. > > Again right concentration, but no jhanas mentioned.. James: This sutta is describing the concentration of an arahant. Of course the concentration of an arahant is always right concentration, he/she is no longer following the Noble Eightfold Path. They have gone past the path. This sutta doesn't apply to us. > ++++++++++++++++++++== > > > How is insight developed and nibbana attained: > From the digha nikaya > Sangiti sutta > "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: > XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here > a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. > And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit > and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from > this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he > feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is > established [he attains nibban]; > b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching > Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or > c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or > d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders > over it and concentrates his attention on it; or > e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well > considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it > with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, > and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a > result, and with this happiness his mind is established. > > Notice the first 4 ways of liberation do not mention gaining mundane > jhana. James: The Buddha didn't teach this sutta, also. This sutta, "The Chanting Together" is in a form clearly not taught by the Buddha. My copy of DN by Wisdom Publications has in the first footnote: "This is undoubtedly a late sutta. RD with characteristic caution says of this and DN 34: "They contain here and there matter which suggests that they took their present shape at a later date than the bulk of the Digha." > > Robertk > Not a very convincing group of suttas in my opinion. Metta, James 52965 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:22pm Subject: Lay-movements or future monasticism? (Was: Is The Foundation of Sujin a lay-movm jwromeijn Dear all I changed the name of the thread a little after James' reaction, because I want to make the theme a more general. The situation in monastic Theravada is bad, that must be the conclusion for everybody who read the ebook Christine mentioned a week ago. Below the last part of that book. Perhaps an other kind of monasticism is possible, in Asia and/or in Western countries. (Christine: geographically it's totally wrong but I will call Australie western too, is that OK?) But more chanches and more Abhidhamma-like is it to have lay- movements. The Foundation of Sujin is an example, and not everybody is enthusiastic about it. But also most insight-meditation centres in Western countries are in fact lay-movements; they have the risk of having to much meditation and to less dhamma-study but when I look at the program of IMS I see that there is an evolution in the direction of more study. (An other discussion theme is also possible but I doubt it's usefulness, that's about the statement of James: Anyone who truly feels the call of dhamma also feels the call to ordain- it is a natural consequence, just as it was for the Buddha. I have many reasons to disagree, or more personal and more specific: I don't have the call to get a Theravada monk, with it's Vinaya discipline and rituals. If there was a freethinker-theravada western monastic life there is a little change, but even then: not on this moment.) And of course: I'm still curious to know more about 'The Foundation' Metta Joop "THE BROKEN BUDDHA; Critical Reflections on Theravada and a Plea for a New Buddhism" by S. Dhammika Buddhayana New Name A revitalized Theravada would be so different from its listless narrow predecessor that it would be only right to call it something different. Another name would also emphasize a conscious desire to evolve new interpretations of the Dhamma rather than just copying or trying to rationalize the old ones. The term Theravada occurs only once in the Pail Tipitaka where significantly it is equated with "mere lip-service, mere repetition" (M,I,164). What name could a new Buddhism go by? The Buddha told his disciples that when others asked them what system they practiced they should say that they were Sakyaputtas, offspring or children of the Sakyan, (A,IV,202). This is a very endearing name but unfortunately it does not lend itself well to modern usage. On another occasion he called his teachings the vibajavada, The Doctrine of Analysis. Scholars usually describe the teachings in the Pali Tipitaka as primitive Buddhism or early Buddhism. The first of these names congers up the image of a monk wearing a bear skin rather than a yellow robe while the second is rather dry. Navayana, the New Way, is better but would not be entirely correct. The revitalized Buddhism I envisage would be contemporary in many ways while still drawing most of its inspiration and nourishment from the Buddha, that is, from the past, and so in one sense would not be new. Buddhavada is perhaps a bit pretentious but better still is Buddhayana, The Buddha's Way. It is descriptively accurate and it roles off the tongue well in English they do suggest. The best name I can think of is Dhammavada, the Teachings of Dhamma or the Way of Dhamma. I would like to suggest some ideas of what this new Buddhism might be like. Pointing humankind towards the transcendental while recognizing what will this Buddhayana be like? Dialogue I believe that Theravada, the prevailing interpretation and explanation of the Pali Tipitaka, has few insights that could be used in the development of the Buddhayana. Other sources will have to be drawn on to provide nourishment and examples for this new Buddhism. To help breath new life into the understanding and practice of medi- tation it would be useful to enter into dialogue with the Chan, Zen and Dzongchen traditions, with modern psychology and also perhaps with the teachings of people like Vimala Thakar and J.Krishnamurti. Such dialogue is well under way in the West, particularly in the USA, and has already proved fruitful. Buddhist-Christian dialogue has been going on for some decades but is usually initiated by and directed by Christians themselves and not surprisingly they are the ones who benefit most from it. I would like to suggest three areas where such dialogue might prove important for an emergent Buddhayana. The first concerns how monasticism might function and survive in the modern world. Catholic monastic orders have declined dramatically in the last 40 years but those that survive could be models for how Buddhayana monasteries might function. A blending of Catholic practices and the best of the Vinaya might ensure the continuance of the monastic Sangha. The second area where the Buddhayana could benefit from Christian input concerns social engage-ment and practical compassion. What is it in Christianity that has made love so central to the life and practice of its followers? What is it in Theravada that has retarded this from happening? What aspects of the Buddha's teachings could be emphasized or reappraised so that a Buddha-like compassion might once more animate and motivate those who live by the Dhamma? Teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh have already began exploring such issues from the Mahayana but more needs to be done and I believe that much could be learned from Christianity. Perhaps there is one other area where Buddhayana might be enriched by dialogue with Christians. Theravadin hostility towards all forms of beauty has prevented the develop-ment of any sacred music or plainsong beyond the most rudimentary form. Thai chanting is not unpleasant to the Western ear although its simple tune and rhythm offer limited scope for further development. Burmese and especially Sri Lankan chanting is little more than a caterwaul. Sonorous music, song and chanting can have a enormous value in communal worship, they can give expression to saddha and they can even be an adjunct to meditation. The Buddhayana should study the rich Christian tradition of plainsong and sacred music and try to develop forms of each that would be suitable to use with Pali gatha and other mediums. Gender Equality Even when open-minded Theravadins discuss the possibilities of reestablishing the nun's Sangha the deliberations always seem to revolve around how to reconcile doing this with what the Vinaya says. Such discussions could go on for centuries. Whatever the Buddha said or is supposed to have said, it is wrong to exclude woman from the monastic life, it is inappropriate to require them to always take second place to a male and it is degrading to treat them as if they had some sort of contagious disease. Buddhayana should take as its guide on this and several other issues the Kalama Sutta in which the Buddha says. "Do not go by tradition… do not go by the sacred text … But when you yourself know that certain things are right, good, skillful and when followed or practiced results in happiness and benefit, then follow them" (A,I,188). In a new Buddhism nuns and lay- women would be accorded respect, recognition and opportunity in accordance with their commitment and achievements, just like anyone else. The Monastic Sangha It is by no means clear that the monastic Sangha can survive in modern Western society. However it is a noble institution founded by the Buddha himself and I believe that it would be worthwhile will survive. But it will have to The sangha should have three nikayas one for teaching and pastural work, Monks in the first Firstly the term sanghs (?) The Monastic Sangha The monastic vocation is never going to be a significant factor in the modern world; it is not even clear whether it will survive at all. However, the monk's and nun's Sanghas are noble institutions founded by the Buddha himself and there will always be those who find the monastic life appealing. However, there are never going to be enough monks and nuns to act as teachers for an effective Buddhist movement and so the Dhammavada should also have an institution of lay- teachers. All monks, nuns and lay-teachers should receive a thorough training before their ordination. This training should consist of an education in Buddhist philosophy, history, Pali and psychology up to university level and in meditation. This part of the training should be the same for everyone. Candidates should then receive special training according to which nikaya they intend to enter after their ordination. There should be three nikayas, one for pastoral and social workers, one for teachers and one for those who intend to be contemplatives only. Those in the first nikaya would run local Buddhist centres whileothers would organize and run various social- service programs in these centres, in the community and perhaps overseas. Those in the teaching nikaya would help train new monastics and lay-teachers and travel to different groups to supplement the teaching already being done there. Those in the contemplative nikaya would staff and run monasteries. All monasteries would as much as possible be self-supporting. They could earn an income by acting as retreat centers, running hospices, manufacturing religious items, printing books, producing herbal medicines, etc. monks and nuns of all nikayas would spend some time each year on retreat in monasteries. The old Theravadin division between monastics and laity has to give way to the idea that everyone can and should know the Dhamma thoroughly and practice it fully. At least one move has been made in this direction. Ven. Piyananda of Los Angles has developed a system of lay-training and ordination which has had some success and could well be a model for similar efforts. His Dharma Vijaya orginazation has very correctly stated, "Buddhism can hardly occupy a firm place in the mainstream of American society if it constantly has to be replenished with foreign-born clergy who themselves may not be integrated into our society." Monastic Discipline The Vinaya would govern the behavior of monks and nuns. Certain rules would be disregarded just as is done in Theravada, the only difference between Buddhayana monastics and Theravadin monks would be concerning which rules were followed and which were not. Buddhayana monks and nuns would abide by the Parajikas and be expelled if they infringed them, as well other rules that were relevant to monastic living and the modern world. There should also be a Code of Conduct to cover matters not dealt with by these rules and this would be modified as circumstances required. Lay-teachers would live by similar rules. No monastics would own property beyond simple and necessary personal affects. Prior to ordination monks and nuns would give all their assets to the monastic Sangha. If they inherited property later this too, would be handed over. A certain percentage of theearnings of monasteries after costs were met would be used for charitable projects run by the Buddhayana. Monasteries must never be permitted to grow into centers of opulence and wealth as they have done in the various branches of Buddhism and in Catholicism. Buddha- yanists, whether monastic or lay, would respect others in the manner usual for the cultures in which they live. Between each other they might retain the anjali (palms together and head slightly bowed) as a graceful and distinctly Buddhist greeting and salutation. When anjalied monks and nuns should always be humble enough and polite enough to anjali back. Local Centres Buddhayana centers would be places for Dhamma education, communal worship, meditation and charitable projects which made a positive contribution to the society in which they functioned. When monastics of the pastoral nayaka or lay-teachers finished their training they would be assigned to centers where they were needed or to open new ones. The congregations in such centers would pay lay-teachers and provide all necessities for monastic. All centers and monasteries would give part of their income to a central fund from where it will be distributed again to start new monasteries or centers and support financially-weaker ones. Centers could also apply for funds for any worth-while projects they were planning. Instead of spending vast amounts on building stupas, erecting gigantic cement Buddhas and applying yet more garish decorations to temples, the Buddhayana would husband the donations it received responsibly. The monuments it erected to honor the Triple Gem would be those that helped propagate the Dhamma or which contributed meaningfully to the betterment of society. In keeping with things that are strong points in the Buddha's teaching, Buddhayanists would become well-known and respected for their counse-ling work, their conflict-resolution programs, the stress-management courses they conducted and would have a well-earned reputation for their gentle unobtrusive contributions to society. To help make the Buddha's teaching available to as many people as possible a lucid and accurate translation of the Tipitaka would be available in every Buddhayana center. However, most people would own and be familiar with the Cula Tipitaka, a standard collection of important and representative suttas particularly those relevant to the lay-life and meditation. As an aid to reading and studying either the Tipitaka and the Cula Tipitaka there would be an Encyclopedia of Buddhism covering doctrinal, philosophical, social and historical aspects of Buddhism. All Buddhayana centers would have ongoing courses for newcomers to Buddhism. They would also conduct Sunday schools for children of all age groups. A Mahasabha or central council should govern the Dhammavada. This council would be made up of a monk, a nun, a lay-man and a lay-woman from which a president would be chosen every 5 years. The presidency would circulate between the members, a monk for one term, a lay-woman next, a lay-man after that etc. This would ensure that no one gender or group would dominate and the interests of each would be represented. The members of the council would be elected by their respective communities. Monks would elect from amongst themselves one respected for his virtue and learning so that he could represent them on the council. So, too, with nuns and lay-teachers. Final Word It would be easy to think that because Theravada has such ancient and apparently deep roots in Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia that it will be there forever. But this would be a dangerous assumption. Religious allegiances can and do change very fast. For 800 years Buddhism flourished in Udyana in what is now northern Pakistan but for reasons that are not clear it eventually withered away. When the Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang visited in the 7century (before the advent of Islam it should be noted) he was able to write; "There are some 1400 old monasteries although they are now generally ruined and desolate. Formerly there were some 18,000 monks in them but gradually their numbers have dwindled so that now there are very few". For 1000 years, Buddhism and Hinduism were the main faiths in Java and spectacular monuments were raised by their votaries. But within a remarkably short period, and without any apparent persecution both gave way to Islam. Theravadins congratulate themselves that their Buddhism is taking the West by storm but the statistics do not bear this out. Islam is growing in the West faster than Buddhism is. More tellingly, evangelical Christianity is growing much faster in Theravadin countries than Theravada is growing in the West and of course, its missionaries are many times more motivated, better prepared and well financed than their Buddhist counterparts. Theravada evolved in and for a world that has now almost completely passed away. If it cannot or will not change to suit the new world it too will disappear. This is not inevitable though, it will depend entirely on those who are more committed to the Buddha's teachings than they are to habit, traditions or nationality. 52966 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:25pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! matheesha333 Hi Tep, T: Questions : > > Which of the two meditation streams is directed meditation, and which > of them is undirected? Or, are both directed ? > > Do you think that collectedness (or concentration, samadhi) is > necessary if you can start directly from Satipatthana and "right > understanding" ? If you can, then there is no "Dangers to Meditation", > right? M: Completely unstructured vipassana would be undirected. The text seems to describe cittanupassana only (and samatha). So I would think that both are directed. But then knowing how to categorize is of limited use isnt it? There is no gurantee against dangers. Even satipattana can drive someone into depression and suicidality if someone is prone to that. Having a teacher and doing it under his or her close eye is the way to do it. Lot of 'dry' teachers teach anapanasathi samatha before their vipassana methods, because it does help. It is difficult to just start off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts. metta Matheesha 52967 From: "susan" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member susie11uk Hi Nina, Thanks you for the welcome. I was reading the emails that were coming through trying to get a gist of things and it's seems quite advanced from where I am at in my practises. I thought of asking questions but then I thought I'd keep you all too busy lol. Is this a kind of study group? Is there room for someone like me who is just going through the four noble truths and eight fold practises? I don't know much about the pali canon or anything like that. I'm just finding my feet at the moment as I'm not too used to groups. thank you susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member > Hi Susan, > welcome here. It is best to begin asking a question, any question, in order > to get involved and share what we learn. > Nina. <.....> 52968 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! matheesha333 Hi James,Tep, I'm on nights tonight. Excuse my butting in (as if that were a reason!). :) J: The problem I had with the author's description is that he wasn't > using conventional speech for pragmatic purposes, he was actually > saying that there are two minds and that one has influence over the > other. This is a strange idea which smacks of atta belief (maybe). > M: An impure thought arises. Then there is understanding that the thought was impure (ie- another thought), then intension arises, then one of the methods in the vitakkasantana sutta is utilised. Even though there seems to be one mind observing the other, they never arise at the same time, and are really on the same continuum. I'm genuinely sorry to hear about the difficult bits you've been through James. I'm glad you've found some sort of peace. In my line of work I see people scarred beyond measure. I recently ran into a woman who's father let his friends abuse her many times a day as a teenager, possibly for money. Now she wants to die. I could see her reasons. All I could do was hope that her thought would pass and give temporary medication. I wish I could teach meditation to them, but most would not be able to accept it and hence not work at all as there is no faith. Psychotherapy is an option but waiting lists are horrendous here and response rates are variable. But all things pass away. We are not gods. Sometimes you just have to let go... metta Matheesha 52969 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no. 1 matheesha333 Hi Nina, > Priya: I used to sit and concentrate for a long time, two hours daily, and I > thought that this was happiness. I kept on concentrating, but was this real > happiness? When I came to study the Dhamma I changed my ideas. I knew that > when I concentrated I did not know anything, thus, this did not mean > happiness, it was rather ignorance. But during the time I was concentrating > I was not unhappy. When I came to study the Dhamma, I realized that I had > lobha during the time I was sitting with concentration. > M: I would like to offer my view on this. If someone sat and did nothing but concentrate that would not be buddhist practice. If someone sat and did not concentrate that would not be buddhist practice either. >I > experience a lot of unhappiness in my life and if my suffering can disappear > I will be happy I wonder if this woman is happy anymore, in this path to the cessation of suffering? Samadhi is one of the most powerful antidotes to mental pain. metta Matheesha 52970 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:43pm Subject: Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) matheesha333 Hi Connie, sure there must be more! but "dhamma foot"? sounds funny, but it can > work. foundation, stand. :) I know no pali, but do know sinhala, which has derivations from Pali. Dhammapada is a basic text which everone in sri lanka knows about from a young age. Paada - as you mentioned pada - verses dhamma pada - dhamma verses take care Matheesha 52971 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi RobertK, M: I think this is the first time I am writing to you. J: Ok my outsider perspective is that I didn't think Jon"s post was so > bad but if that is the way Mateesha took it ( did you M?)then it > explains why he is so upset. M: There is no point making excuses for what is typed here. Some of it is written in anger and aversion, then the mind flips again hoping to write somethign with more noble intensions. I'm not enlightened and have my share of defilements. J: it is well explained in the Theravada (please ask for references > if you doubt this)how concentration states can be very calm and > tranquil but still not be skilful - in fact they may be akusala, > lobha, pure attachment. ...WRONG effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! ...> Thus if on dsg some members do emphasize understanding and how > careful we have to be when evaluating mindstates, then this is > surely a long tradition in Theravada, and perhaps other members can > show some tolerance. ..."It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the > defilements that are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would > very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the > development of insight. It > is our wrong view and ignorance M: I have laid out my position on these issues (more or less) in a post to phil today. I find it unproductive to verbally spar on these issues. If someone genuinely wants to understand, rather than challenge, I think it shows. regards Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > Math can respond for himself, but I will give you my outsider > input. > > I also found Jon's reply adversarial. Math simply revealed that > he > > had achieved jhana to make his point that it wasn't impossible in > this > > day and age. Jon responded with accusing Math of "trying to pull > rank > > on him". Excuse me?? Now, it was said as a joke but it wasn't > funny > > and it wasn't really a joke. Jon was trying to belittle Math, to > gain > > control and superiority over him. If that's not adversarial I > don't > > know what is. > > > >+++++++++++++++++ > Dear James and Mateesha, > Ok my outsider perspective is that I didn't think Jon"s post was so > bad but if that is the way Mateesha took it ( did you M?)then it > explains why he is so upset. > > Going back to the earlier post: > Mateesha: :) If you have viriya you will achieve jhana. The Buddha > said we > are like craftsmen making swords. We take our minds and rid it of > impurities. Jhana is like a heavy hammer in the process, striking at > the metal to do just that. > If someone can be so blinded and blinkered that they disregard > evidence in the suttas,and think that everyone else in the world is > wrong apart from their little cirlce, what is that except > foolishness, subtle intellectual conceit and wrong > view?""endquoteMateesha > > > .... > Dan Dalthorp said about viriya in his unique way: "As an example, > consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of > each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five > faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the > noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam > tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty > of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor > (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, > endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost > exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having > sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, > discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, > power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of > endeavor." > > WRONG effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This > is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- > cittani. It's fine and dandy to > toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is > critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" > or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment > and understanding. `endquote by Dan. > And it is well explained in the Theravada (please ask for references > if you doubt this)how concentration states can be very calm and > tranquil but still not be skilful - in fact they may be akusala, > lobha, pure attachment. They look very much like the skilful > ones,but only developed understanding can know which is which. > > Thus if on dsg some members do emphasize understanding and how > careful we have to be when evaluating mindstates, then this is > surely a long tradition in Theravada, and perhaps other members can > show some tolerance. > Jon explained > "It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the > defilements that are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would > very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the > development of insight. It > is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about which > we have relatively very little idea -- that are the major > hindrances. The development of the path might be a lot easier if it > was a matter of somehow dealing with more obvious kilesa."""endquote > Robertk > 52972 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:26pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, James and Matheesha - The complex processes of cittas are very difficult for me to understand -- this difficulty was the motivation for me to become DSG's member so that I may learn from the wise men and wise women of this group. In the post # 52937 I asked : > > Tep: I believe that the idea of a good mind watching over another mind is from MN 20. What do you think of the following MN 20 passage, "... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it" ? > > Tep: I think there are two different types of cittas (i.e. two streams of kusala and akusala cittas, rather than individual cittas that arise and cease in a random order). If I may call these kusala and akusala streams of citta as "minds", then I guess this idea might be more compatible with the suttas such as MN 20. ......................... > >James: The problem I had with the author's description is that he wasn't using conventional speech for pragmatic purposes, he was actually saying that there are two minds and that one has influence over the other. This is a strange idea which smacks of atta belief (maybe). > > >Math: An impure thought arises. Then there is understanding that the thought was impure (ie- another thought), then intension arises, then one of the methods in the vitakkasantana sutta is utilised. Even though there seems to be one mind observing the other, they never arise at the same time, and are really on the same continuum. > Tep: Thank you, Math, for adding more descriptions to the "mind idea" (or model). Nina also provided some thoughts in another thread. Nina (#52778) : It is a good thing to find out the truth: kusala citta cannot be manipulated, because it is citta accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. And think of how many are needed for one moment of kusala, nineteen at least. They all are so busy performing their function during that extremely short time. Saddha has confidence in kusala, sati does not let the moment go by wasted, lightness and pliancy and wieldiness are needed for a supple functioning of citta and cetasikas in the wholesome way. Those who have developed jhana know the right conditions for jhanacittas that may continue even for a whole day. It always depends on conditions. The arahat has mahaakiriyacittas with sobhana cetasikas. As we read in the Removal of unwholesome thoughts: Sutta: ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering." .............................. Tep: So far I have got some clues that should be good as a basis for my own exploration. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi James,Tep, > (snipped) 52973 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana smallchap Hi Nina, Thank you for taking time to answer my questions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > S: Thank you very much for quoting Kh Sujin' Survey on > >Paramatha Dhammas and providing the link. What Kh Sujin said on > >right concentration is in agreement with what the Buddha defines as > >noble right concentration, i.e. right concentration accompanying > >the other seven factors, with right view as forerunner. Does it > >mean that one should not practise conventional samadhi? > >------- > N: Perhaps you mean by conventional samadhi mundane jhaana? Or just > focussing on one object? I think you mean the latter. -------- S: Yes. I mean mundane samadhi leading to mundane jhanas. -------- > N: I think there is no should or should not, because whatever > one is inclined to do is conditioned already by one's accumulated > tendencies. -------- S: Then really there is no danger in engaging in mundane jhanas. Future accumulation is conditioned by the present moment. If one aspires to be an arahat with jhanic skills (with supernormal power), he must starts learning the skills now if he does not already possess the skills. -------- >N: But right understanding should be emphasized whatever one is > doing. -------- S: Agree. -------- > N: Mental development, bhaavanaa includes samatha and vipassanaa, > and there cannot be any mental development without paññaa. Daana > and siila can be performed with or without paññaa, but this cannot > be said of bhaavanaa. > In the same section of Survey, Kh Sujin gives a great deal of > attention to the meditation subjects of jhaana. With regard to the > earth kasina she explains that if paññaa does not arise while > paying attention to earth, there is akusala citta that desires to > think of earth or to focus on earth. Thus, mere concentration or > focussing on one point is not a guarantee for kusala citta. Jhaana > developed in the right way is a level of kusala that is higher than > kusala of the sensesphere like daana. -------- S: In the ultimate sense, any desire is akusala. Even an intentional breath results in dukkha. But here I speak of using mundane jhana as a base for developing paññaa. From a puthujjana's perspective, mundane jhana is still mundane kusala citta, a base for cultivating wisdom. Until one attains higher vipassana nana, it is impossible to discern jhana with understanding. In one of my recent post I said: "It is like asking why you need to be a monk?" As you know, to be a monk one must have "intention", then follows sets of "rite and ritual", first be a novice, and finally a fully ordained bhikkhu. Would you say also that that desire is akusala? -------- >> S: If so [if one should not practise conventional concentration], > >how do we reconcile this with what Ven. Ananda said in Yuganaddha Sutta: > > > > "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? > > > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are > > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > ..............." > N: I find this sutta very helpful, but we should consider all four > ways. It shows that depending on people's inclinations they develop > first jhana and then insight, or first insight, then jhana, or both > at the same time, or only insight. The fourth way deals with the > imperfections of insight. > > When we read suttas it may seem that people are told to do this or > that but the Buddha knew how anatta people's inclinations are. They > cannot develop samatha on command, but he praised those who could > develop jhaana and insight. -------- S: I think samatha can be developed in degree. However, it will be more difficult for one who have attained higher vipassana nana, in the sense that his mind is more inclined towards observing anicca, dukkha or anatta. And yes, the Buddha praised only those who lived abiding in the Dhamma. -------- > N: The development of jhaana alone is not enough, it does not > eradicate defilements. I quote from my Abh in Daily life: > > (for example, 'Discourse on Expunging', Middle Length Sayings I, > No. 8). > Those who are advanced in the development of calm can have many > jhanacittas in succession, since they have cultivated conditions > for this. They truly are 'abiding in ease, here, now'. However, the > Buddha would point out that 'abiding in ease' is not the same > as 'expunging' (eradication). > > We read in the 'Discourse on Expunging' that the Buddha said to Cunda in regard to the monk who could attain rupa-jhana: > > ...It may occur to him: 'I fare along by expunging'. > But these, Cunda, are not called expungings in the > discipline for an ariyan. These are called 'abidings in > ease, here, now' in the discipline for an ariyan. > > With regard to the monk who could attain arupa-jhana, the Buddha > said: > > ...It may occur to him: 'I fare along by expunging'. > But these, Cunda, are not called 'expungings' in the > discipline for an ariyan; these are called 'abidings that > are peaceful' in the discipline for an ariyan... > -------- S: Yes. Jhana can be mistaken for Nibbana. It happenned at the time when the Buddha was alive. It happens now too. Some may attain jhana while practising vapassana meditation and take jhana as Nibbana. -------- > N: Those who have accumulated skill for jhana and have developed > vipassana can attain enlightenment with absorption. Instead of a > meditation subject of samatha, nibbana is the object which is > experienced with absorption. > Lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhana-factors of different > stages of jhana according to one's accumulations.> > ------- S: Agree. ---------- > > S: For the sake of discussion, what do you think, is there more > > akusala citta in one who is engaged in mundane concentration than > > one who is planning a trip to India? > ------ > N: We cannot tell, it depends on the citta at a particular moment. > Planning for India: there are countless cittas arising and falling > away. There may be expectations, that is lobha. Or one sees the > value of payting respect to the Buddha at those places, as he had > said himself. One understands that the greatest respect to the > Buddha is a moment of right awareness and understanding of what > appears now. > As to mundane concentration, see above. -------- S: So I should say planning a trip to India is as dangerous as engaging in mundane jhana!? For a puthujjana, "a moment of right awareness and understanding of what appear now" seems non-existent. It could be just recollection of past moments, memories, living in the past, which can result in more dukkha. This is even more dangerous then engaging in mundane jhanas but I am sure you will disagree. -------- > N: Does this answer your questions? -------- S: Yes and no. See my comments above. smallchap 52974 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana matheesha333 Hi Smallchap, I thought I should post this sutta, further to your discussion with Nina: -this is different samadhi sutta. Personally for me, this sutta shows that samatha and vipassana do not have to be developed at the same time, and that there is more to samatha than just kusala moments arising spontaneously ie -there has to be intentional development. metta Matheesha ------------------------------------- Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in world. Which four? "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations. "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in world." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html 52975 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and Nina) - The original idea of directed and undirected meditation is in Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.10: Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta. Here the directed meditation is based on using a "satisfactory image" or a 'nimita' that induces calm. Once the mind is calm, the meditator (monk) would return his attention to vipassana (the four foundations of mindfulness). Thus, the vipassana is undirected; since the mind is non- distracted and so there is no need to "direct" it to tranquillity. This is how I understand the ideas of direct/undirected meditation. Now, the Bhikkhu Kantipalo's "wisdom leading to calm" meditation is similar to the "bare attention" method by Mahasi Sayadaw. If my understanding is right, then it is a vipassana or undirected -- i.e. free to follow different objects. On the other hand, the Bhikkhu's second meditation method is based on samatha, i.e. using a fixed meditation object, hence it should be of the "directed" category. > > M: Completely unstructured vipassana would be undirected. The text > seems to describe cittanupassana only (and samatha). So I would think that both are directed. But then knowing how to categorize is of > limited use isnt it? Tep: I guess the meditator has to know clearly about the idea behind each category (how it works; when it works best) in order to correctly apply it. So the "knowing" is not limited at all. ...................... > M: > There is no gurantee against dangers. Even satipattana can drive > someone into depression and suicidality if someone is prone to that. > Having a teacher and doing it under his or her close eye is the way to > do it. Lot of 'dry' teachers teach anapanasathi samatha before their > vipassana methods, because it does help. It is difficult to just start > off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts. > Tep: Possibly, such depression and suicide are caused by a severe lack of understanding of the meditation coupled with wrong expectations. I totally agree with you, based on my own experience, that "it is difficult to just start off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts". Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ========== 52976 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana smallchap Hi Matheesha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > > I thought I should post this sutta, further to your discussion with > Nina: -this is different samadhi sutta. Personally for me, this sutta > shows that samatha and vipassana do not have to be developed at the > same time, and that there is more to samatha than just kusala moments > arising spontaneously ie -there has to be intentional development. > > metta > > Matheesha ------------- S: Thank you for posting the Sutta. I have read it before and it is nice to re-read it. :) smallchap 52977 From: connie Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:30pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi, Matheesha, yes, I tend to talk gibberish even in my mother tongue. When it comes to the father tongue, I have less skill or understanding than a toddler. I just like words and guess I think if I twist them around enough I'll see more of what they're pointing to. What I SHOULD do, is study pali grammar and keep my fingers off the keyboard instead of showing off my ignorance, but that's not happening, so please overlook some of my playing. yes, dhammapada = dhamma verses, but here's another quote from Narada's introduction to what must be at least his third published attempt at / version of the book in question: "The Pali term , Sa'mskrit , is one of the most difficult words to be translated into English as it has many meanings. It has to be understood according to the context. Here it is used in the sense of Sayings or Teachings of the Buddha. implies sections, portions, parts, or way. Dhammapada may be rendered, 'Sections or Portions of the Dhamma', 'The Way of the Dhamma'. It is somewhat difficult to offer a graceful English equivalent according to its literal meaning. 'The Way of Truth', 'The Way of Righteousness', 'The Path of Virtue', are renderings that have been suggested by various scholars.'" peace, connie 52978 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) lbidd2 Hi Connie, Here's a shot in the dark: manopubbangama dhamma manosettha manomaya mind their leader, dhammas, mind their principal, mind their origin manasa ce padutthena bhasati va karoti va with a mind of -if- wickedness one speaks -either- one acts -or- tato nam dukkham anveti cakkam va vahato padam from this cause harshness follows a wheel -like- the puller's foot manasa ce pasannena bhasati va karoti va with a mind of -if- goodness one speaks -either- acts -or- tato nam sukkham anveti chaya va anopayini from this cause soothingness follows a shadow -like- constant L: It occurred to me there's another way of interpreting this apart from the kammic and phenomenological interpretations. If we speak or act with a wicked mind harshness follows in our wake contaminating everything. The opposite is the case when we speak or act with a mind of basic goodness (metta). Larry 52979 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, continuation buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - My question was about direct knowledge and direct awareness : "How is it possible that direct knowledge or direct awareness may arise when there is an akusala citta at that moment?" >Tep: And even if there is no akusala in the citta for several moments, is that sufficient for direct knowledge to arise? If the answer is 'yes', then we all can become arahants in this very life. >N: When it has just fallen away sati and paññaa arising in a following process can discern its characteristic and it can be realized as a conditioned dhamma, not my akusala. If it is not known as it truly is it cannot be eradicated. >N: ... the citta with raaga and without it should be known as non-self. ... Akusala, kusala, seeing, visible object, they all have to be known as just dhammas, and not merely in theory. They have to be known when they appear. >N: When there is kusala citta without pannñaa or vipaakacitta, all these can be objects of awareness after they have just fallen away. I do not think of arahatship, it takes very long for understanding to develop as insight, arising subsequently in stages, before even the stage of sotaapanna is reached. Tep: It is almost discouraging that your answers to the above questions are conditional . It is similar to telling a hungry child that if there IS food in the refrigerator, then she CAN eat it -- but she should have no hope or expectation. What if sati and panna did not arise in the following instant? Or, in a much worse case, what if one was deluded enough to be unable to know akusala "truly" because the mind was so contaminated by the defilements(kilesa)? I think only Stream-winners (and higher) know akusala truly when it appear or know nama & rupa truly as "non-self" when they appear. That's why I asked, "But what about us? How do we 'get there' "? You wrote: "it takes very long for understanding to develop as insight, arising subsequently in stages, before even the stage of sotaapanna is reached". True. Then, wouldn't it be much more practical for us to focus our discussion right now on developing the early stages of understanding? Next, we can discuss the later stages after the earlier ones have been achieved. Why talk about traveling to the far-away galaxies now (when we still don't have the technologies), why not talk about going to Mars and Venus first? ................... Tep: You mentioned Buddhanussati, metta, foulness of the body, mindfulness of death, and commented : >N: Metta when we meet or think of others; foulness: we carry it around, it is with us; mindfulness of death: are we not confronted with death also around us? Tep: So I asked: Are you implying that we do not need the "undirected meditation" to develop "direct awareness" (by 'bhavana')? >N: I do not understand your question here. Perhaps you understand bhavana differently? See the discussions with Jon. Or do you mean directed meditation? These terms may be misleading. Tep: I am sorry for the unclear wording. In Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.10: Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (Directed and Undirected Meditation) the term 'undirected meditation' means contemplation(anupassana) by means of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and 'directed meditation' is used to develop calm. To me 'bhavana' means "develop" mental qualities by meditation. I believe, based on SN XLVII.10, that 'direct awareness' is effectively developed by employing a directed meditation (back and forth) with undirected meditation (here, satipatthana bhavana as in DN 22), not just mindfulness of death (part of kayanupassana) alone. ......................... >N: We do not "use" anything to develop direct awareness, because it grows naturally when there is more listening and considering and the right saññaa of Dhamma remembers and supports sati by being its proximate cause. I should correct a term I used in connection with meditation for all ocaasions: it should be Sabbatthikakamma.t.thaana. This is in the subco. to the Satipatthanasutta. Tep: It is not clear to me what you meant by "the right saññaa of Dhamma remembers and supports sati by being its proximate cause". And what is Sabbatthikakamma.t.thaana ? I am very interested to learn how to develop direct awareness by "meditation for all ocaasions". Is this meditation only vipassana? Does it bypass the samatha bhavana? ........................... >N: I am not so much thinking of relaxation of thoughts, rather of abandoning by understanding. Tep: This is again back to my confusions and all the above questions. 'Abandoning by understanding' is at the Arahant's level of understanding. It is great that you can naturally abandon akusala vitakka by understanding (pahana parinna). But I am not there yet. ........................... >N: Full understanding has to begin, and the question is how and when? By learning and considering of what is right at hand at this moment. Only the five khandhas. ... Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e. paramattha dhammas) .... 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' >N:Seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha, whatever appears now is khandha. Tep: Thank you for quoting this sutta. It boils down to anupassana of the five clinging aggregates as anicca, dukkha, anatta. That is the backbone of the Buddha's Teachings! But whatever khandha appears now is one thing, and whether or not a worldling may one day "truly" see and know it (that it is anicca, dukkha, and anatta) is another thing. According to this sutta, Purification of Virtue is a requisite condition. What else are necessary as requite conditions? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, (snipped) > > > > Tep: I agree wholeheartedly if the panna that leads to detachment is > > the "full-understanding as abandoning" [Vism. XX, 3]. But what about > > us? How do we "get there"? > ------- > N: Good question, food for thought. > Thinking: how do we get there, is thinking and this does not bring us > anywhere. > Full understanding has to begin, and the question is how and when? > By learning and considering of what is right at hand at this moment. > Only the five khandhas. I quote a sutta: > ****** > Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- > vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what > the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a > sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. > Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e > paramattha dhammas) (snipped) 52980 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana smallchap Hi Nina, An insertion: For a puthujjana, "a moment of right awareness and understanding of what appear now" seems non-existent, except for those who have attained higher vipassana knowledge. smallchap 52981 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:32pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 322- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [o] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] Regret Regret or worry, kukkucca, is another akusala cetasika which can arise with dosa-múla-citta. It does not arise with every dosamúla- citta, but when it arises, it arises only with dosa-múla-citta. It cannot arise with lobha-múla-citta or with moha-múla-citta. When there is regret there is also aversion towards the object which is experienced at that moment. Therefore, the feeling which accompanies kukkucca is always unpleasant feeling. The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part IX, Chapter III, 258) gives the following definition of kukkucca: * "… It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and omission as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a state of bondage." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 174) gives a similar definition. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52982 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member sarahprocter... Hi Susan, I'd also like to welcome you here and to encourage you to raise any topics you're interested in. Perhaps you could also tell us a little more about your background, such as where you live and how you became interested in buddhism. --- susan wrote: >I was reading the emails that were coming > through trying to get a gist of things and it's seems quite advanced > from > where I am at in my practises. I thought of asking questions but then I > thought I'd keep you all too busy lol. .... S: Please do keep us all busy, lol too! It may be best to just ignore any threads which seem too complicated for now and to just start your own. You may also like to look at a section in 'Useful Posts' in the 'files section' under 'new to the list and new to dhamma...'. There's also a simple Pali glossary in the files section which you may find useful to print out. .... > Is this a kind of study group? Is there room for someone like me who is > just > going through the four noble truths and eight fold practises? I don't > know > much about the pali canon or anything like that. ... S: For any threads you start or questions you raise, there's no need to use Pali terms at all. There is certainly plenty of room for you and anyone else interested in discussing any aspects of the Buddha's teachings. What have you been reading so far? What do you understand by the first noble truth? .... > > I'm just finding my feet at the moment as I'm not too used to groups. .... S: We're only a group in the sense that we come together here to share our interest in the Dhamma and the value we all see in considering, reflecting and following the path taught by the Buddha. It is a very deep teaching, so there are bound to be different understandings which we find helpful to discuss further here. I'll look forward to your contributions. Metta, Sarah ========= 52983 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Robert K., (and Tep), > > An interesting assortment of suttas you have here. I know that you > address Tep but I couldn't resist responding (especially after > reading Nina's recent post to Howard). > > > here is another sutta > > http://www.vipassana.info/117-mahacattarisaka-e.htm > > III. 2. 7.Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m- > > (117) The Longer discourse on the forty > > I heard thus. > > > > Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the > means > > and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, > > right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right > > mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with > > these seven factors is called noble right concentration together > > with the means and the accessories. > > > > No mention of the 4 jhanas here…. > > James: The Buddha obviously didn't teach this sutta. There is even > a warning at the end of the sutta that no one is to contradict this > sutta or there will be dire consequences: "Because there would be > blame, anger and reproach.' The Blessed One said thus and those > bhikkhu delighted in the words of the Blessed One." The Buddha > actually said that he would get angry at someone for contradicting > his teaching? I don't think so! This style of reproach is found in > many Mahayana suttas because they aren't authentic either. +++++++++ Dear James, Bhikku Bodhi has a better translation which may alay your doubts "Even those teachers from okkala, vassa and bhanna who held the doctrine of nihilsim would not think that this dicourse on the Great forty should be censure and rejcted. Why is that? Because [they] would fear blame, attack and confutation" Bodhi p940. ======================== > > > How is insight developed and nibbana attained: > > From the digha nikaya > > Sangiti sutta > > "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: > > XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here > > a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk > Dhamma. > > And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the > spirit > > and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and > from > > this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he > > feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is > > established [he attains nibban]; > > b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching > > Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or > > c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or > > d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders > > over it and concentrates his attention on it; or > > e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well > > considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it > > with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, > delight, > > and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a > > result, and with this happiness his mind is established. > > > > Notice the first 4 ways of liberation do not mention gaining > mundane > > jhana. > > James: The Buddha didn't teach this sutta, also. This sutta, "The > Chanting Together" is in a form clearly not taught by the Buddha. > My copy of DN by Wisdom Publications has in the first > footnote: "This is undoubtedly a late sutta. RD with characteristic > caution says of this and DN 34: "They contain here and there matter > which suggests that they took their present shape at a later date > than the bulk of the Digha." > > ++++++++++ The section I quoted from this suttta is also word for word the same in another sutta in the Anguttara nikaya. Scholars may doubt the Tipitaka but their reasons are foolish in my opinion, and slander of the sangha who recorded the suttas. Robertk 52984 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana or contemplation? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I was listening to a talk from last August, in Bangkok. You were > asking A. Sujin about something you'd heard in a talk, how at > moments of insight (vipassana-nana?) there is vipassana but at other > times "contemplation." Do you remember this talk? .... Yes, it's on the edited one in dsg.org. I believe we just had one day for discussion with K.Sujin on that visit and there are a lot of detailed and technical questions starting with Nina's one. Apologies for this and other slower-than-usual replies....put it down to the ‘Hong Kong editing sweatshop’ in part, you'll be glad to hear:-). Anyway, I’m always glad when Matt or anyone else helps out in the meantime. Matt made good points and I’ll just add a little more. --- Phil wrote: > Hi Sarah > <..> > A. Sujin: "As soon as awareness is aware of a characteristic, does > panna really know that, or does it take time?" > > Sarah: "It takes time." > > A. Sujin; "And that is what is meant by contemplation." > > And then I think you said something about a kind of gap that is > this contemplation, rather than having direct understanding through > vipassana. > > It's a difficult point, beyond me, but I was surprised that it > takes panna time to know the characteristic when there is awareness > of it. .... S: It means, it takes time for panna to develop and to really know when there is awareness and when there isn’t. In the beginning, the accompanying panna is very weak and it’s not apparent at which moments there is awareness. This is why awareness is stressed a lot in the beginning, because panna has to know its characteristic very precisely and know when it arises. This is the way it will develop. So, in the beginning, there is a lot of contemplation about characteristics and realities. Later, these characteristics can just be known directly without the need for so much contemplation in between. The teachings just point to the truths about realities which can then be known directly and immediately. This doesn’t mean there’s no contemplation or thinking!(I think the discussion was about higher and lower stages of insight and cinta-maya-panna, following some discussion with Nina & Dan here). .... >I thought panna and sati rose and fell away together to know > the characteristic. Does this panna that "takes time" relate to > pariyatti and panna that doesn't "take time" (ie is immediate and > direct) relate to patipatthi? ... S: Yes. There are different levels of panna. Sati arises with all kinds and levels, but it’s only satipatthana when it’s direct awareness and understanding of a reality, rather than when it’s at a pariyatti level. There can of course be awareness and direct understanding anytime, unexpectedly, but it may not be apparent because it’s so little and weak in the beginning. With regard to your comments in another thread about ‘sense doors cover over the minddoor’ etc, I think you made some good points. Yes, when there’s no awareness, thinking seems to last, dosa seems to last, but visible object also seems to last. The point, I think, is that the sense door process is just one and so brief, followed by many, many, mind door processes. But yet we think that we see and hear all the time. Metta, Sarah ====== 52985 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation sarahprocter... Hi Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > I read your post with great interest. Meanwhile, I lost the annotation > of > this sutta. I have B.B., which page is it? .... S: Yes, I should have given these details again: Culasunnata Sutta. MN 121, Nanamoli/Bodhi transl p 965, notes p.1328 Metta, Sarah > > S: Just a few of my personal reflections as I read the sutta (using > > Nanamoli/Bodhi transl and comy notes they give). > > > > 1.The Buddha says: > > “ ‘As formerly, Ananda, so now too I often abide in voidness” 52986 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 579 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation of suffering. It is also known as samudaya saccaa. It is tanhaa. It is craving. It is lobha. It is attachment. Lobha is a naama dhamma. Lobha is mentality. I wrote that there are 60 places where lobha or tanhaa or craving originates. This may confuse someone who have not study dhamma. Stone and water cannot be mixed into one while milk and water can be mixed into one. Naama and ruupa cannot be mixed into one while feeling (naama), pereception (naama), formation (naama), and consciousness (naama) can be mixed into one. 60 places are miscellneous and some are ruupa-dhamma and some are naama-dhamma. The idea that I said 'craving originates from these 60 places' is to mean that 'craving has to arise' when these 60 places are not properly attended. In real sense lobha arises only when lobha-cittas arise. This sentence may confuse you again. When I say 'lobha arises..' I mean lobha cetasika. But lobha cetasika or mental factor of attachment never arise singly. All lobha cetasikas arise only with citta. When lobha cetasika arises with a citta that citta becomes lobha-citta. There are 8 lobha- cittas. These 8 lobha-cittas are repeatedly explained in Dhamma Thread posts. All these 8 lobha-cittas are akusala cittas. They are akusala dhamma. Even if they arise in the middle of kusala actions they are still akusala and they will bring their consequences. When akusala-dhamma is not known as akusala-dhamma one will not be able to avoid akusala actions. When akusala actions cannot be avoided one will not be pure and when not pure there will be defiled. When defiled then will be bound to the samsaraa. And there will not be any liberation and any peace. These akusala dhamma will be seen when on approaching way to Noble Eightfold Path (NEP). Once on the NEP there is no more akusala and those who are exactly on NEP will be 1. seeing suffering as they are 2. eliminating the cause of suffering 3. experiencing the cessation of suffering 4. fulfilling all 8 segments in their fullest state NEP is the 4th Noble Truth. It is 'dukkha-nirodha-gaamini-patipada ariya's saccaa'. Simply, it is magga saccaa or it is the truth of the path leading to cessation of suffering. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 52987 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directing and Misdirecting Mind/Connie(Dhammapada) sarahprocter... Hi Larry (Connie & Howard), I have a few comments & quotes to add too: --- LBIDD@... wrote: > "Mind precedes mental states" doesn't make much sense to me. The trans. > I have says, "Mind is the forerunner of all actions". This makes sense > but I don't see it in the pali. Maybe Connie could give us a better > translation. What does the commy say Connie? .... S: Citta (vinnana or mano here) is the chief in experiencing an object. It 'leads' the accompanying cetasikas. Transl and quotes from Daw Mya Tin's translation: "All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner" Note: "Manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa: All mental phenomena have Mind as their forerunner in the sense that Mind is the most dominant, and it is the cause of the other three mental phenomena, namely, feeling (vedana), perception (sa~n~naa) and mental formations or mental concomitants (sa'nkhaara). These three have Mind or Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) as their forerunner, because although they arise simultaneously with Mind they cannot arise if Mind does not arise (Commentary)." .... > Btw, I agree with B. ~Nanamoli that "piti" is "happiness" and "sukha" > is "bliss". "Sukha" is pleasant feeling. Somehow I don't think of > happiness as a feeling, even though happiness is accompanied by pleasant > feeling. Btw, is sukha the opposite of dukkha? ... S: Note: "dukkha: In this context, dukkha means suffering, or physical or mental pain, misfortune, unsatisfactoriness, evil consequences, etc and rebirth in the lower planes of existence or in the lower strata of human society if born in the human world." .... > Also what does "mind-made" (manomayaa) mean? > > manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa > manose.t.thaa manomayaa > manasaa ce padu.t.thena .... S: "All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made" Mind-made - led or determined by citta and its accompanying mental factors -- no self who determines anything! Note: "Manasaa ce padu.t.thena (verse 1) and manasaa ce pasannena (verse 2): Manasaa here means intention or volition (cetanaa); volition leads one to the performance of volitional actions, both good and evil. This volition and the resultant actions constitute kamma; and kamma always follows one to produce results. Cakkupala's blindness (verse 1) was the consequence of his having acted with an evil intention in a previous existence and Matthakundali's happy existence in Tavatimsa celestial wold (v.2) was the result of his mental devotion (manopasaada) to the Buddha." .... Connie, a little more on foot(pada), and chief (padu.t.thena) from something I wrote before on proximate cause* (pada.t.thaana.m): ***** S:>"Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 ..... As I understand pada.t.thaana literally means 'footprint' from pada-foot. Now I understand better the use of 'footing' in the PTS Netti transl. 'footing' is translated from pada.t.thaana as in: " 'Investigate yourselves, launch out' are the footing for energy. (The words) 'Devote yourselves in the Enlightened One's Dispensation' are the footing for concentration. (The words) 'Scatter the armies of Mortality as does an elephant a hut of reeds' are the footing for understanding...."(Netti, 40 p65 in transl) ..... Also under the "Mode of conveying Footings"(Netti, 104 p140 in transl): " 'So let his cognizance be guarded': this is the footing for the three kinds of good conduct. 'Having for pasture right intention': this is the footing for quiet. 'Giving right view first place': this is the footing for insight. 'Through knowing rise and fall: this is the footing for the plane of seeing (as the path of Stream Entry). 'Transcending drowsing and lethargy a bhikkhu may': this is the footing for energy. 'Abandon all bad destinations': this is the footing for keeping in being (as the attainment of the three higher paths)." ***** Metta, Sarah *More in U.P. under 'Proximate Cause' ======== 52988 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 11/29/05 5:22:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... wrote to Robert: > I know that you > > address Tep but I couldn't resist responding (especially after > reading Nina's recent post to Howard). > ====================== James, I've been searching to no avail to find Nina's post to which you refer here. (I tried to find it n my own without bothering you about it.) Could you please let me know the post you are referring to, by # or date or y quoting it? I won't likely get to look for your reply real soon, as I'm flying off to Dallas this morning, and then I'll be busy, but I do look forward to seeing it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52989 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:37am Subject: Small Lesson htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 separate consonents and 8 separate vowels in 'Paa.li'. They are 1. k , kh , g , gh , `n 2. c , ch , j , jh , ~n 3. .t ,.th ,.d ,.dh , .n 4. t , th , d , dh , n 5. p , ph , b , bh , m 6. y , r , l , v , s 7. h , .l , .m k,c,.t,t,p do have their own sounding. They are all unaspirated while kh, ch , .th, th, ph are aspirated. To differentiate between k & kh , c & ch , .t & .th, t & th , p & ph put the palm of hand in front of the mouth and say k and kh alternatively and repeat again and again. Also say other pairs. k & g , c & j , .t & .d , t & d , p & b are also different. The difference is k,c,.t,t, and p are not vocalised. For voice to arise they have to combine with vowel. But g,j,.d,d,b are all vocalised. To differentiate between each in pairs put the palm of the hand on the throat (voice box) and say k & g alternatively. g is associated with humming on the throat while k is less vibrating than g. `n, ~n , .n , n , m are all nasalised consonent of their group. .t and t are also different. For t the tongue has to press against the hard palate just behind the margin of upper teeth. But for .t the tongue is pressed against the hard palate a little bit back to the place of t. It seems that '.t when combined with a' sounds like 'tot' while t combine with a sound like ta. But both .ta and ta have the same vowel of 'a'. y is like English 'y', l is the same as in English. v may be voiced by biting upper teeth on lower lip but if teeth do not touch lower lip it is almost acceptable. s is produced by pressing the tongue against the margin of upper teeth. There are variation because of the position of the tongue. If the tip of tongue is used then the sound may like 'th' in 'think'. If the blade of tongue just behind the tip is used it would sound like 's' in 'say' 'sell'. h is the same as in English. .l is like l but the difference is as in .t and t. .m is semivowel and there is no word with this initial sound. It is like 'am' in English. 8 vowels are a, aa i, ii u, uu e o aa has double length of a and this also applied to i & ii, u and uu e has the same length with aa,ii,uu . o has the same length with e. e and o are long vowel. aa, ii, uu are also long vowel. If there are special character they are written as a-, i-, u-. That is a single a with a bar over the letter. a, i, u are short vowel. When e or o are followed by double consonents they change into short vowel. Boring? With Metta, Htoo Naing 52990 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. philofillet Hi Matheesha > I'm not sure if that answers your question, but I have felt progress > ever since i started. I have less dukkha, have more insight, more > nekkhamma. So this works for me and lot of other people i know. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer. I started to write back to you, but I really don't know what or how to write anything more substantial about this topic than the very unsubstantial things I have already written. I appreciate the tone of your posts, Matheesha. Confident in your practice, but not arrogant at all. Phil 52991 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. philofillet Thanks Nina (and James and Sarah) Thanks for this, Nina. I know you have written almost exactly the same thing before to me, and it just doesn't sink in. I think sometimes the moments at which things sink in quite often are when I am walking, listening to the i-pod. Maybe it is because of the fresh air, the understanding is sharp, or relaxed, or something, I don't know. Do you remember I wondered if you wanted to read some things on to Mp3 the way Lodewijk did? I do hope you do, if only for selfish reasons, that difficult Dhamma points seem to sink in better when I'm listening for some reason! :) Thanks again. Thanks also for the pointer about cetana, and intention re akusala kamma. James, I will return to that thread one of these days but am getting busy with other things. It's a very interesting topic. Thanks also Sarah for your feedback re vip and contemplation. I want to get back to your other posts from a couple of weeks ago as well. Probably during my winter vacation. Phil > N: Yes, the word photocopy was used. So clear, vivid, just like the real. > It is like seeing now, it sees visible object. You notice seeing, and while > you notice it, it is so vivid, so present, but it has just fallen away. Or > visible object appearing now while your eyes are open. Instead of noticing > there can be a citta with sati that is mindful, but it arises after seeing > has fallen away, not at the same time as seeing. > Seeing falls away but extremely shortly after it has fallen away there is > another process with seeing. It arises again and again and in between there > is noticing it, or, if there are conditions mindfulness of its > characteristic. No need to think of catching it or thinking of seeing or of > its falling away. 52992 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhatrue Hi Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > The section I quoted from this suttta is also word for word the same > in another sutta in the Anguttara nikaya. James: Well, that could be important to know. What other sutta are you referring to?? Scholars may doubt the > Tipitaka but their reasons are foolish in my opinion James: I doubt you even know "their reasons"; you are generalizing. , and slander of > the sangha who recorded the suttas. James: Honest scholarship is not a slander of anyone or anything. > Robertk > Metta, James 52993 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 11/29/05 5:22:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... wrote to Robert: > > > I know that you > > > > address Tep but I couldn't resist responding (especially after > > reading Nina's recent post to Howard). > > > ====================== > James, I've been searching to no avail to find Nina's post to which > you refer here. (I tried to find it n my own without bothering you about it.) > Could you please let me know the post you are referring to, by # or date or y > quoting it? > I won't likely get to look for your reply real soon, as I'm flying off > to Dallas this morning, and then I'll be busy, but I do look forward to > seeing it. > > With metta, > Howard It is post #52962. Hope you have a nice visit! Metta, James 52994 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] The kamma of wrong speech (was Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) sarahprocter... Hi Phil (James & all), This is a helpful topic for me to consider more - --- Phil wrote: > > If someone calls you an > asshole and you call them an asshole back, isn't that akusala kamma > patha? I think so. The conditions there are much more direct, but I > think the same rule applies even if the conditions are further > removed. Again, just my speculating on technical aspects. > > (If anyone else would like to add their comments on this point, it > would be appreciate.) ... S: It depends. It all comes back to the intention as James & Nina have said. A person who uses very polite language or keeps silent may have harsher intentions and be committing akusala kamma-patha (through speech or mind)instead of the one who appears to speak harshly. For harsh speech to be akusala kamma patha, there have to be 3 factors: a) a person who is abused, b) angry thoughts and c) the abuse or harsh words themselves. I've worked a lot with teenage boys who often swear and call each other names as terms of affection. I'm sure you're familiar with this too. As James and others have indicated, there are also cultural elements. When his father writes in what might seem to us to be a harsh manner, it's probably his way of showing affection. I've quoted examples before from the Atthasalini, Courses of Immoral Action which I think are relevant. For example, a mother cursed her son 'May a wild she-buffalo chase thee!'. A buffalo actually appeared, but it states that "though her vocal effort was mortally wounding, yet her speech was not really harsh because of her tender heart." It also goes on to say that 'though parents sometimes say thus to their children: "May thieves cut you up into pieces!' yet they do not wish even a lotus leaf to fall on them. Teachers and spiritual guides sometimes say of their pupils: 'What are we to do with these shameless, reckless lads? Turn them out!' and yet they wish that they may attain and accomplish." And as I mentioned, the reverse is true: "But as words are not harsh if the heart be tender, so are they not gentle, just because speech is sot. The words of one desirous of killing: 'Let him sleep in comfort!' are not soft; because of the harshness of thought the words are harsh." In summary: "Harsh speechis proportionate to the virtues of one concerning whom harsh words are spoken." We can really only learn to know more about our own intentions. Kusala and akusala follow each other so closely and our 'gentle words' may not be as pure as we'd like to believe. On the other hand, I'm also sure that some of our friends here who speak very strongly or seemingly harshly may often have very good intentions when they do so. Does this mean that if we have mostly good intentions that we can use any language or speak (or act) in anyway? Unfortunately, I don't think so. Just as the teenagers have to learn that their friendly swearing and banter or loud voices are not appropriate in the class-room or in their essays, so we also have to use a certain amount of restraint to 'conform' at work or in other social situations where different 'rules' apply:-). But, like James, I'm also reminded of the arahant who spoke harshly because of his previous accumulations (vasana), givng others quite the wrong impression. It's only the Buddha who has no trace left of previous bad impressions (vasana)** in his habits.* Metta, Sarah * Udana, Nanda chapter, Pilinda (Masefield transl): "Then the Lord, having paid attention to the former dwelling of Pilindavaccha, addressed the monks, saying: 'Monks, do not find fault with the monk Vaccha; Vaccha, monks, does not bear hatred when treating monks to talk (reserved) for outcastes. For the monk Vaccha, monks, (there have been) five hundred non-interspersed births, rebirths in a brahmin clan. This talk (reserved) for outcastes of his has been his treatment (of people) for a long time. it is due to this, monks, that this Vaccha treats the monks to talk (reserved) for outcastes.' Then the Lord, fathoming this matter, gave rise at that time to this Udana: 'In whom dwells neither deceit nor conceit, who is one with greed dispersed, one with none of 'mine', one without longing, one with anger thrust away, one with self completely quenched - he is the brahmin, he the recluse, he the monk'." ** From the commentary: "But what is this that is known as impressions? They say that that which, even in the continuity of one in whom the defilements are wanting, is the mere capacity, built up by defilements cultivated from time without beginning, to constitute the root-cause of conduct similar to conduct on the part of those in whom the defilements have not been abandoned, is a disposition of such a kind. It is not, however, to be found in the continuity of the Lord, wherein the defilements have, on account of the success of his aspiration, been abandoned by way of abandoning any obstructions to that which is knowable; whereas it is to be found in the continuity of savakas and Paccekabuddhas, wherein the defilements have not been abandoned in that way, due to which the Tathagata is alone one whose knowledge and vision are without obstructions." =================================================== 52995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. 1 nilovg Hi Tep, op 29-11-2005 04:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Tep: Yes, full awareness and direct understanding, I think, are difficult > to establish because we need the following: right exertion(samma- > vayamo) & right mindfulness with right view (samma-ditthi) as the > forerunner running in circle around right view, right resolve(samma > sankappo), right speech, right action and right livelihood. [MN 117] > ...................... N: I know that some people translate sammaa sankappo as right resolve, but that is wrong. It is right thinking, vitakka cetasika. This cetasika hits or touches the nama or rupa that appears now so that paññaa can understand its true nature. Vitakka and right view are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path. As to the three that are the siila of the eightfold Path, these arise one at a time as the occasion demands, when the Path is still mundane. In the beginning awareness and understanding of what appears now is still weak, but no need for concern. Listening more, considering more, remembrance of what one has heard are the right conditions. Paññaa will work its way, no need to interfere! > .......................... > >> N : (referring to MN 20) ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths > along which thoughts travel. .. > The Commentary states that he has become most skillful as to the > course of his thoughts and that the Buddha herewith wanted to show the > characteristic of such skill.... > Tep: What is " skill "? Isn't it sanna (a trained perception, including > memories)? Clearly to me, skills are not cittas. ------ N: He had developed paññaa to the degree of arahatship, that is his skill. That kind of paññaa eradicated all defilements. He had no more obstructions. -------- T: I think, sanna is a > condition for consciousness(citta) to arise. ------ N: Saññaa arises with each citta. ------- T: Therefore, once he has > become skilfull in thought relaxation, the monk has the right kind of > sanna to get the job done, e.g. pahana sanna to 'abandon, destroy, > dispels & wipe out' akusala vitakka (see AN X, 60). Is this > understanding making sense to you? ------- N: It is lokuttara paññaa of the arahat that eradicates all akusala vitakka. > .................> > Tep: But it is difficult for me to see how patience and perseverance > without concentration may lead to direct knowing & direct awareness. > Why? "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually > are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as > its reward." [AN XI.1] This sutta does not say patience and > perseverance have knowledge & vision of things as they actually are > as the reward. -------- N: Patience and perseverance have to be kusala, and perseverance or courage can stand for kusala viriya. As to concentration or samaadhi, this accompanies each citta and it has many degrees. When it is kusala and it accompanies vipassanañaa.na it is more developed by conditions. There is no need to think: I have to be calm first. --------- T: By the way, because 'Jai' = mind and 'Ron' = hot, thus a person > with 'hot mind' does not know samadhi. > .................. N: Samaadhi that is kusala. An impatient person has lobha, desire for result, he wants result soon. ----- > > Tep: Of course, any expectations during a contemplation(anupassana) > of the characteristics of realities (e.g. the "All") would take the mind > away from the object of sati to create mental formations. Thus, no > progress may be expected. > ................ N: I would not use the expression during a contemplation. It seems in that way that there is a specific time for contemplation, but there is not. It can be like a flash in daily life, unplanned, unexpectedly. There are short moments, but these can be accumulated and in this way understanding grows. And also impatience has a characteristic, it is a nama that has arisen because of conditions. ***** Nina. 52996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! nilovg Hi Tep and Matheesha, Yes, Matheesha is right. If someone is prone to suicidity, any wrong practice can disturb him more. As to doing something else first before vipassana, OK, I think differently. Also a scattered mind should be understood as conditioned, non-self. One should understand one's accumulations perfectly, otherwise enlightenment cannot be attained. Nina. op 30-11-2005 03:06 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > M: >> There is no gurantee against dangers. Even satipattana can drive >> someone into depression and suicidality if someone is prone to that. >> Having a teacher and doing it under his or her close eye is the way to >> do it. Lot of 'dry' teachers teach anapanasathi samatha before their >> vipassana methods, because it does help. It is difficult to just start >> off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts. >> > > Tep: Possibly, such depression and suicide are caused by a severe > lack of understanding of the meditation coupled with wrong > expectations. > I totally agree with you, based on my own experience, that "it is difficult > to just start off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts". > 52997 From: nina Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:02am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 202 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 202 Intro: In the preceding section the feelings of the different planes of citta were compared. The citta and the accompanying cetasikas, including feeling, of the plane of ruupajhaana and aruupa-jhaana are subtle in comparison with those of the sensuous plane. But in this section even jhaanacittas and the accompanying cettasikas which are mundane are gross in comparison with lokuttara cittas and cetasikas. The latent tendencies of defilements are not eradicated by jhaanacitta. After the jhaanacittas have fallen away the defilements are still arising. Jhaanacitta does not lead out of the cycle of birth and death. ---------- Text Vis. : (d) 'According to the mundane and supramundane': feeling subject to cankers is mundane, and that is 'gross' compared with that free from cankers, because it is the cause for the arising of cankers, is liable to the floods, liable to the bonds, liable to the ties, liable to the hindrances, liable to the clingings, defilable, and shared by ordinary men. The latter, in the opposite sense, is subtle compared with that subject to cankers. This is how grossness and subtlety should be understood according to the mundane and supramundane. ***** N: Defilements are classified in different groups. There are four aasavas, cankers or intoxicants: the aasavas of sensuous desire, of desire for rebirth, of wrong view and of ignorance. The aasavas keep on flowing from birth to death. The floods (oghas) are the same four defilements but this classification shows the aspect of submerging or Œsweeping away into the ocean of becoming¹ (Vis. XXII, 56). The yogas, ties or bonds, are the same four defilements but this classification shows the aspect of being tied to the cycle of birth and death. The ganthas, ties or knots, are: covetousness, ill-will, clinging to rules and rituals (wrong practice) and dogmatism (this alone is the truth, including all kinds of wrong views). The hindrances are: sensuous desire, ill-will, loth and torpor, restlesness and regret and doubt. The clingings (upaadaanas) are: sensuous clinging, clinging to wrong view, clinging to rules and rituals and clinging to personality belief. The Tiika explains the expression, [it is gross] because it is liable to the floods, that when feeling takes an object, it will be overcome by the floods. It is liable to the bonds, to the ties, because it takes an inferior object. It is engaged in defilements, or it has a tendency to defilements, and thus it is defilable, as the Tiika explains. What is said here about feeling also goes for the citta and the accompanying cetasikas. The different groups of defilements illustrate their danger. So long as they have not been eradicated they arise with the citta and cetasikas. So long as the intoxicant of sensuous desire has not been eradicated it is bound to arise and cling to sense objects. It is the same for the other types of defilements who each have their specific objects. They arise again and again and are accumulated. The lokuttara magga-citta eradicates defilements at the different stages of enlightenment. Lokuttara cittas lead out of the cycle of birth and death and thus they are subtle compared to mundane or lokiya cittas. What is said about lokuttara citta also goes for the accompanying feeling and other cetasikas. ****** Nina. 52998 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana mlnease Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: "ashkenn2k" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 7:31 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana > I feel it is impt to note that he obtain enlightment upon coming out of > the jhanas and not during jhanas. Fine post as always. I've been trying to locate the (or a) sutta that makes this point explicitly. Any help appreciated. Thanks in Advance, mike 52999 From: nina Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:39am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no 2 nilovg Dear friends,