53000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamm in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 4. nilovg Hi Phil, The technical thing hinders. It is so complicated, we have given up. But if you come to Bgk you can hear me life. Nina. op 30-11-2005 14:39 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Do you remember I wondered if you wanted to read some things > on to Mp3 the way Lodewijk did? I do hope you do, if only for > selfish reasons, that difficult Dhamma points seem to sink in better > when I'm listening for some reason! :) 53001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no. 1 nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 29-11-2005 23:39 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > >> Priya: I used to sit and concentrate for a long time, two hours > daily, and I >> thought that this was happiness. > > If someone sat and did nothing but concentrate that would not be > buddhist practice. > > If someone sat and did not concentrate that would not be buddhist > practice either. > I wonder if this woman is happy anymore, in this path to the > cessation of suffering? Samadhi is one of the most powerful antidotes > to mental pain. -------- N: See Kh Sujin's answer in no 2. It is hard to tell whether the citta is kusala or akusala. But if one develops Samatha it is a must. Nina. 53002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! nilovg Hi Howard, James, don't bother, I sent it again to you, Howard, off line. Nina op 30-11-2005 13:14 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >> James, I've been searching to no avail to find Nina's post to which > you refer here. 53003 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 322- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [o] mlnease Hi Sarah and Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:32 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 322- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [o] > The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part IX, Chapter III, 258) gives the > following definition of kukkucca: > * > ". It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and > omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and > omission as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a state of > bondage." In my (English) PTS copy of Atthasaalinii, Book II only has Parts I and II (no Part IX); p. 258 is in Book I, Part V, Chapter XIII ('The Divine States'. Can you please help me to locate the citation above? Thanks, mike 53004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) nilovg Hi Larry and Connie, just now this passage was on the Pali list, did you see it, Larry? Our moderator Yong Peng translated it. Here it is: [Dhammapada 1-2] Manopubba`ngamaa dhammaa, manose.t.thaa manomayaa; mind-before-gone / phenomena / mind-chief / mental(s) Preceded by the mind are all phenomena, with the mind in the essence are all thoughts; manasaa ce padu.t.thena, bhaasati vaa karoti vaa; with mind / if / with corrupted / speaks or / does or if with a corrupted mind (one) speaks or acts; tato na.m dukkhamanveti, cakka.mva vahato pada.m. afterwards / that / pain-follows / wheel-like / of bearing / foot pain follows that (person) thereafter, like the wheel the foot of the (one) bearing (loads). Manopubba`ngamaa dhammaa, manose.t.thaa manomayaa; mind-before-gone / phenomena / mind-chief / mental(s) Preceded by the mind are all phenomena, with the mind in the essence are all thoughts; manasaa ce pasannena, bhaasati vaa karoti vaa; with mind / if / with purified / speaks or / does or if with a purified mind (one) speaks or acts; tato na.m sukhamanveti, chaayaava anapaayinii. afterwards / that / happiness-follows / shadow-like / not going away happiness follows that (person) thereafter, like the shadow never departing. metta, Yong Peng. op 30-11-2005 05:22 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > manopubbangama dhamma manosettha manomaya > mind their leader, dhammas, mind their principal, mind their origin > > manasa ce padutthena bhasati va karoti va > with a mind of -if- wickedness one speaks -either- one acts -or- > > tato nam dukkham anveti cakkam va vahato padam > from this cause harshness follows a wheel -like- the puller's foot > > manasa ce pasannena bhasati va karoti va > with a mind of -if- goodness one speaks -either- acts -or- > > tato nam sukkham anveti chaya va anopayini > from this cause soothingness follows a shadow -like- constant > > L: It occurred to me there's another way of interpreting this apart from > the kammic and phenomenological interpretations. If we speak or act with > a wicked mind harshness follows in our wake contaminating everything. > The opposite is the case when we speak or act with a mind of basic > goodness (metta). 53005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Hi Mike, We read that the Buddha realized the four noble Truths when he attained enlightenment. That is different from the meditation subjects of jhana. Nina. op 30-11-2005 20:06 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: >> I feel it is impt to note that he obtain enlightment upon coming out of >> the jhanas and not during jhanas. > > Fine post as always. I've been trying to locate the (or a) sutta that makes > this point explicitly. Any help appreciated. 53006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 322- Q. page no. Regret (kukkucca) [o] nilovg Hi Mike, the 258 is not the page, but no. is in the text. The page is: 343. Nina. op 30-11-2005 20:42 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: >> The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part IX, Chapter III, 258) gives the >> following definition of kukkucca: >> * >> ". It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and >> omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and >> omission as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a state of >> bondage." > > In my (English) PTS copy of Atthasaalinii, Book II only has Parts I and II > (no Part IX); p. 258 is in Book I, Part V, Chapter XIII ('The Divine > States'. 53007 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 0:06pm Subject: [dsg] Kukkucca Quote mlnease p.s. I found the passage Nina quoted in PTS Atthasaalinii, Book I, Part IX, Chapter III, p. 343--Thanks again. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:32 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 322- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [o] > The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part IX, Chapter III, 258) gives the > following definition of kukkucca: > * > ". It has repentance as characteristic, sorrow at deeds of commission and > omission as function, regret as manifestation, deeds of commission and > omission as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a state of > bondage." 53008 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana mlnease Hi Nina, Understood, thanks--I'm just looking for a (or the) sutta in which the Buddha states this explicitly. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana > Hi Mike, > We read that the Buddha realized the four noble Truths when he attained > enlightenment. That is different from the meditation subjects of jhana. > Nina. > op 30-11-2005 20:06 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > > >>> I feel it is impt to note that he obtain enlightment upon coming out of >>> the jhanas and not during jhanas. >> >> Fine post as always. I've been trying to locate the (or a) sutta that >> makes >> this point explicitly. Any help appreciated. 53009 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:22pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana. Five Suttas buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike (and Nina, Jon, RobertK) - It is very nice of you to come back to DSG message board and ask a great question. I am not sure whether I can give a satisfatory answer to your question/request below, but I am going to do my best. > Mike: I feel it is impt to note that he obtain enlightment upon coming out of the jhanas and not during jhanas. .... I've been trying to locate the (or a) sutta that makes this point explicitly. Any help appreciated. Tep: From the top of my head I can recall only five suttas that may match or closely match your specification. (I) [AN IV, 170, translated by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi] "Here, friends, a monk develops insight preceded by tranquillity (samatha pubbangamam vipassanam). While he thus develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters (samyojanas) are abandoned and the underlying tendencies (anusayas) eliminated. (II) [AN IX.36, Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption ] "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then -- through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma- delight, and from the total wasting away of the five lower fetters [self- identity views, grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and irritation] -- he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. [Similarly with the other levels of jhana up through the dimension of nothingness.] (III) MN II. 2.4. Mahamalunkhyaputtasutta (64) The Major Discourse to Venerable Malunkhyaputta. http://www.vipassana.info/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm "Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? "Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. "Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: "This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations( sankhara khandha), the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment(viraga), cessation and extinction (nibbana). "With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. (IV) Anguttara Nikaya IX.35 Gavi Sutta "... ... In the same way, there are some cases where a monk -- wise, experienced, familiar with his pasture, skilled in being quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, and entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation -- sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. "The thought occurs to him, 'What if, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, I were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance.' Without jumping at the second jhana, he -- with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation -- enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. [second jhana through fourth jhana, then arupa-jhanas] "The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, were to enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling.' Without jumping at the cessation of perception & feeling, he, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. "When a monk enters & emerges from that very attainment, his mind is pliant & malleable. With his pliant, malleable mind, limitless concentration is well developed. With his well-developed, limitless concentration, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he wields manifold supranormal powers. ... If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human .. "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental mental fermentations, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment- release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." V. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 : Sankhitta Sutta Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." "May the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be that I will understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I will become an heir to the Blessed One's words." "Then, monk, you should train yourself thus: 'My mind will be established inwardly, well-composed. No evil, unskillful qualities, once they have arisen, will remain consuming the mind.' That's how you should train yourself. "Then you should train yourself thus: 'Good-will, as my awareness- release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'Compassion, as my awareness-release... Appreciation, as my awareness-release... Equanimity, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should train yourself: 'I will remain focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort." Then that monk, having been admonished by an admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants. ............................ Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Understood, thanks--I'm just looking for a (or the) sutta in which the > Buddha states this explicitly. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nina van Gorkom" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana > > > > Hi Mike, > > We read that the Buddha realized the four noble Truths when he attained enlightenment. That is different from the meditation subjects of jhana. > > Nina. (snipped) 53010 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Dear Robert K. (Attn. James, Jon, Nina, Matheesha, Howard, ...) - Before proceeding with this Dhamma discussion may I ask you to accept my humble apologies for my unfriendly mental actions toward you in the past? I sincerely hope that from now on we will always communicate with mutal respects and friendly attitude. Thank you in advance, my friend. >R: I think the main thing is to establish that there are various types of concentration that are samma –right, and if we can agree on this then to establish which are part of the noble eight-fold path leading out samsara. T: Yes, I agree with that condition. .................... >R: There are several suttas that give the 4 rupa jhanas as right concentration, and these are cited often on this list. There are also suttas where the eight mudane jhanas are given Then there are many suttas like the following, whichdo not get cited so often ... T: I am pleased that you have acknowledged existence of the "several suttas" that consider the four rupa-jhanas as 'samma-samadhi'. I am now ready to review with you such suttas, "whichdo not get cited so often". Thank you for taking time to do the search for me. ....................... The Request: > > Tep: I'd like to make a note that I have not seen > >even one sutta that teaches "mundane jhanas". > >All of the suttas I know, either given by the Buddha or by the > >Arahants (e.g. Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda), are about > >the only kind of jhanas as taught by the Buddha; > > i.e. the jhanas that are "part of the path out of samsara". > > My question (or "request") to you is : > >Can you prove me wrong, please? ++++++++++++++++++++++ Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of Walshe ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >R: Note that (b) is a special type of samatha meditation giving powers of mundane vision. Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas are given a specific category different from the types of samadhi which result in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements. Tep: This sutta is very much the same as AN IV.41, which was translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Notice that only the first of the four meditations is about the four arupa-jhanas; mundane or not, it is not clear. The second one (i.e. b.: "Here, a monk attends to the perception of light, he fixes his mind to the perception of day, by night as by day, by day as by night.") is 'aloka-sanna', NOT the four rupa-jhanas. Nyanatiloka on aloka-sanna : "It is one of the methods of overcoming drowsiness, recommended by the Buddha to Mahá-Moggallána (A.VII. 58). According to D. 33, it is conducive to the development of 'knowledge and vision' (s. visuddhi), and it is said to be helpful to the attainment of the 'divine eye. [end quote] Note carefully that there are no wordings in this sutta (by Washe or by TB) which indicate that these four types (a, b, c, d or i, ii, iii, iv) are "mundane jhanas". So, so far you have not proved me wrong yet. :-)) ............................... III. 2. 7.Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m-(117) The Longer discourse on the forty --------------------------------------- Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with these seven factors is called noble right concentration together with the means and the accessories. >R: No mention of the 4 jhanas here…. Tep: You should look for the definition of "right concentration" elsewhere, for example, DN 22, to relate to the four jhanas : "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration.' [DN 22] ......................................................... MN 149. Mahaasa.laayatanikasutta.m. The Longer Discourse on the six spheres ------------------------------------------- To someone who learns and realizes, eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of eye contact, as they really are. Attachment does not arise for eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of that eye contact. This one not attached, unyoked and not deluded, abiding seeing the danger does not accumulate in the five holding masses for the future. His craving, interest and greed, to be here and there in the future, cease. His bodily and mental troubles, anxiety and laments cease. Further he experiences bodily and mental pleasantness. Whatever his view, it becomes right view. Whatever his thoughts, they become right thoughts. Whatever his speech it becomes right speech. Whatever his actions, they become right actions. Whatever his effort, it becomes right effort. Whatever his mindfulness, it becomes right mindfulness. Whatever his concentration, it becomes RIGHT CONCENTRATION. >R: Again right concentration, but no jhanas mentioned.. Tep: Again, you should look for the definition of "right concentration" in a sutta like DN 22 (see above). However, I can give you one more sutta that defines "right concentration", it is SN XLV.8 : Magga-vibhanga Sutta: "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." ...................... DN XXV: Sangiti sutta The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance ---------------------------------- >a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established [he attains nibban]; ... ... e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established. >R: Notice the first 4 ways of liberation do not mention gaining mundane jhana. Tep: It is a matter of right interpretation. :-)) This sutta shows that (see e.) the samadhi-bojjhanga factors, which are similar to the jhana factors (e.g. joy, delight, calm, happiness, ..), support wisdom. The words "mundane jhanas" are not mentioned here at all ! So, again, I don't see that you have proved me wrong yet. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > (snipped) > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Tep, > I think the main thing is to establish that there are various types > of concentration that are samma –right, and if we can agree on this > then to establish which are part of the noble eight-fold path > leading out samsara. > There are several suttas that give the 4 rupa jhanas as right > concentration, and these are cited often on this list. There are > also suttas where the eight mudane jhanas are given > Then there are many suttas like the following, whichdo not get cited > so often: (snipped) 53011 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directing and Misdirecting Mind/(Dhammapada) lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Nina, Thanks for the extra material. I still haven't settled on a trans. for "dhammapada". So far "dhamma path" seems ok. "Dhamma verses" is problematic because "dhammapada" is singular. "Dhamma verse" doesn't work because there are many verses. "Piece of dhamma" or 'dhamma fragment" seems a little uncharacteristic. "Dhamma footing" is a possibility. I was even considering "dhamma trek". "Dhamma foot" or "foot dhamma", no. How would you translate it? Larry 53012 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Again, it has been both difficult and fun to go through a "dhamma exchange" like this with you. This time there are several things we disagree. But it may be wise for me to leave them alone. :-) I think we made our points very clear and, without hoping for a general agreement, or trying to "wrap it up", the best I can say now is "Thank you very much, Nina." Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 29-11-2005 04:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > Tep: Yes, full awareness and direct understanding, I think, are difficult > > to establish because we need the following: right exertion(samma- > > vayamo) & right mindfulness with right view (samma-ditthi) as the > > forerunner running in circle around right view, right resolve(samma > > sankappo), right speech, right action and right livelihood. [MN 117] > > ...................... > N: I know that some people translate sammaa sankappo as right resolve, but > that is wrong. It is right thinking, vitakka cetasika. This cetasika hits or > touches the nama or rupa that appears now so that paññaa can understand its > true nature. Vitakka and right view are together the wisdom of the eightfold > Path. > As to the three that are the siila of the eightfold Path, these arise one at > a time as the occasion demands, when the Path is still mundane. > In the beginning awareness and understanding of what appears now is still > weak, but no need for concern. Listening more, considering more, remembrance > of what one has heard are the right conditions. Paññaa will work its way, no > need to interfere! > > .......................... > > > >> N : (referring to MN 20) ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths > > along which thoughts travel. .. > > > The Commentary states that he has become most skillful as to the > > course of his thoughts and that the Buddha herewith wanted to show the > > characteristic of such skill.... > > > Tep: What is " skill "? Isn't it sanna (a trained perception, including > > memories)? Clearly to me, skills are not cittas. > ------ > N: He had developed paññaa to the degree of arahatship, that is his skill. > That kind of paññaa eradicated all defilements. He had no more obstructions. > -------- > > T: I think, sanna is a > > condition for consciousness(citta) to arise. > ------ > N: Saññaa arises with each citta. > ------- > > T: Therefore, once he has > > become skilfull in thought relaxation, the monk has the right kind of > > sanna to get the job done, e.g. pahana sanna to 'abandon, destroy, > > dispels & wipe out' akusala vitakka (see AN X, 60). Is this > > understanding making sense to you? > ------- > N: It is lokuttara paññaa of the arahat that eradicates all akusala vitakka. > > .................> > > Tep: But it is difficult for me to see how patience and perseverance > > without concentration may lead to direct knowing & direct awareness. > > Why? "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually > > are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as > > its reward." [AN XI.1] This sutta does not say patience and > > perseverance have knowledge & vision of things as they actually are > > as the reward. > -------- > N: Patience and perseverance have to be kusala, and perseverance or courage > can stand for kusala viriya. As to concentration or samaadhi, this > accompanies each citta and it has many degrees. When it is kusala and it > accompanies vipassanañaa.na it is more developed by conditions. There is no > need to think: I have to be calm first. > --------- > T: By the way, because 'Jai' = mind and 'Ron' = hot, thus a person > > with 'hot mind' does not know samadhi. > > .................. > N: Samaadhi that is kusala. An impatient person has lobha, desire for > result, he wants result soon. > ----- > > > > Tep: Of course, any expectations during a contemplation (anupassana) > > of the characteristics of realities (e.g. the "All") would take the mind > > away from the object of sati to create mental formations. Thus, no > > progress may be expected. > > ................ > N: I would not use the expression during a contemplation. It seems in that > way that there is a specific time for contemplation, but there is not. It > can be like a flash in daily life, unplanned, unexpectedly. There are short > moments, but these can be accumulated and in this way understanding grows. > And also impatience has a characteristic, it is a nama that has arisen > because of conditions. > ***** > Nina. > 53013 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Matheesha - >N: > As to doing something else first before vipassana, OK, I think >differently. Also a scattered mind should be understood as >conditioned, non-self. One should understand one's accumulations >perfectly, otherwise enlightenment cannot be attained. Tep: I appreciate your caution on the conditional nature of scattered minds and their anatta characteristic. Warm regards, Tep ========= --------------------------------- > > M: > >> There is no gurantee against dangers. Even satipattana can drive > >> someone into depression and suicidality if someone is prone to that. > >> Having a teacher and doing it under his or her close eye is the way to > >> do it. Lot of 'dry' teachers teach anapanasathi samatha before their > >> vipassana methods, because it does help. It is difficult to just start > >> off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts. > >> > > > > Tep: Possibly, such depression and suicide are caused by a severe > > lack of understanding of the meditation coupled with wrong > > expectations. > > I totally agree with you, based on my own experience, that "it is difficult > > to just start off dry because the mind is scattered and lost in thoughts". > > > 53014 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) philofillet Hi Rob K, Nina, and all who listen to A. Sujin talks. I was asking about this first insight, knowing nama from rupa. Rob provided some very helpful feedback below. Today I was jogging, listening to the first talk from India 2004 (you can hear it in the audio files, it's really excellent.) The bit came up in which Nina talks about her worry for Lodewijk's health, and said that when A. Sujin says it is just nama it feels like a cold shower. I've mentioned this often enough - I always relate to it as anyone would because we all worry about our loved ones. Then Nina says "but we have this trouble because as long as we don't know nama from rupa" we can't really know, or words to that effect. And A. Sujin says "yes is yes." You all know the bit I'm referring to. I'd heard that maybe 50 times or so, found it very charming, and always thought, yes, right, know nama from rupa, got it, have to do that, right. But today, perhaps due to the endorphins from jogging, it really clicked. All this lobha I talk about, all this aversion I feel these days (my previous alienation about being a foreigner in Japan is popping up again) all this worry, all this fear. It's all very fine to say "it is only nama" and thing that that is liberating in some way. But it's still my lobha, my dosa. Those are just words that I'd read and heard often enough - "my lobha, my dosa" - but as I was jogging today I really got it, got a strong clear hunch or preview or something or other about the liberating implications of knowing nama as that which experiences and rupa as that which cannot experience, knowing the characteristics of nama and rupa directly. I could sense quite deeply how liberating that would be, how the world would be turned over, as Rob K says below. And yet not sotapanna, for wrong view would come up again. Also responded well to the bit that followed immediately - that as soon as we see the importance of knowing nama from rupa, the clinging to wanting to know it comes up again and hinders as it throws people off when they desire to ahve sati. So subtle, so much need for patience. I'm posting this and hopefully I won't think about knowing nama from rupa until the next moment understanding about it arises due to conditions as it did today. Very grateful to A. Sujin for her very clear way of getting things across. And to Nina for sharing so honestly her feelings about clinging to Lodewijk. Without her openness I couldn't have had the encouraging....um, is it ok to call it an insight?...that I had today! Phil p.s interesting that when I had the clear understanding that helped me accept my mother's alzheimers about 4 months ago, it also came while listening to a.sujin while jogging on the exact same sports field. I do think there is something about exercise or endorphins or fresh air or something that helps understanding to arise. > > I am a bit confused about these stages of insight. Nina has > > explained to me a bit, but it's water under the bridge, I'm > afraid. > > You say "advanced degree of satipatthana -vipassana" for defining > > nama and rupa, but it is the first of the "tender insights" isn't > > it? Are there "degrees of satipattha- vipassana" that are less > > advanced? > > > > Also, what is the difference in degree, if it can be defined in > > that way, between this namarupapariccheda and the first > realization > > of the path at which one becomes an ariyan? If as you say, the > world > > disappears, there is no self, at such moments, isn't it akin to > > having insight of the degree of streamwinner? > > > >++++++++++ > > Dear Phil, > Satipatthana comes in many degrees before the first stage of insight > is reached. Now the sense doors cover over the minddoor- for example > it seems that seeing is coniually occuring. But the moment of seeing > is very brief and then there are many, many mind moments with no > seeing. Really we live in a dark world lit up by occasional moments > of light (it just doesn't seem that way due to ignorance). So now > everything is very unclear. > At the moments when namarupapariccheda occur the minddoor is > apparent so it is very different from now. It must feel like the > world has been turned over, for that very brief time and then it is > back like usual - except that wisdom has seen things as they are- > this is real understanding of the difference between nama and rupa- > not merely thinking one knows the difference. > Anatta too is clear because impossible to plan or make this happen, > the processes of mind are so uncontrollable. And yet even this world > shattering experience isn't enough to fully uproot wrong view. It > remains like a virus in remission, hiding and weak but not fully > killed- it takes more insight before it is finally gone at the first > stage of enlightenment. > Robertk > 53015 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:30pm Subject: The kamma of wrong speech (was Re: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) philofillet Hi Sarah, Nina, James and all Just a quick response on this now. I will get back to your threads during my winter vacation which starts in two weeks. Just want to get this down so I can look at it in a couple of weeks and see if I still think it! :) Sarah :> We can really only learn to know more about our own intentions. Kusala and > akusala follow each other so closely and our 'gentle words' may not be as > pure as we'd like to believe. On the other hand, I'm also sure that some > of our friends here who speak very strongly or seemingly harshly may often > have very good intentions when they do so. I think this idea of "good intentions" is very vague, much vaguer and more thinky than the cittas actually involved. For example, many people wrongly believe (largely due to a poor translation) that "right intention" is one of the path factors, and imagine it to mean that we should have sweet and wholesome intentions about what we want to do to have less akusala and more kusala. Of course that is just thinking, rooted in lobha and desire to be a very wonderful person, a peaceful person, a wholesome person. Not at all what the Buddha had in mind. I think of the times I have intended to *not* participate in the very nasty talk about students that goes on (much of it pornographic.) But almost inevitably, I do. My intention is not to, but I do. I don't see how the good intentions there were means that it is not akusala kamma patha. On the other hand, I don't worry about it too much either. There are conditions for it to arise, and it arises. There is an intention, cetana cetasika, to say the awful thing at the moment I say it, or a moemnt just before. I ahve a hunch -only a hunch - that *that* cetana that motivates the wrong speech just before it occurs is the intention that the Buddha invites that monk to consider, and we are nowhere near being able to understand our momentary intentions to the degree that that monk was. (I refer to the sutta Nina quoted.) What we take for "intention" is just wishful thinking and storytelling about ourselves, I think. It is believing, incorrectly, and either subtly or blatantly depending on the degree to which wrong view has been eradicated, that there is a self that makes it possible to decide to give rise to kusala and prevent the arising of akusala, contrary to the Buddha's teaching of anatta. (see the anatta sutta) (I suppose wishful thinking could be a contributing condition to kusala arising or akusala subsiding, but not in a direct way - just one of many, many conditions.) And these sweet intentions are not the cetana cetasika that arises and propels us into or away from akusala deeds such as wrong speech. If we were to be asked by the Buddha whether we intended to do harm or not, we could answer with mistaken confidence, but we wouldn't really know, it seems to me. We are not there yet, not by a long shot. Phil 53016 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 0:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana kenhowardau Hi James, ------------------- Ken H to Howard: > > I think we have agreed in the past that many ariyans attained > by bare insight. In other words, jhana was NOT an aspect - crucial > or otherwise - of their 'move towards awakening.' > ................. J: > Didn't Bhikkhu Bodhi write an aricle to this group about how a person can become a sotapanna without jhana but that some level of jhana is required for the attainments of once-returner, non- returner, and arahant? ------------- He wrote an article but I don't remember if it was specifically to this group. Sarah posted it in instalments and Rob M reposted it a couple of months ago. I'm not sure, but as I remember the article, the commentaries say that all stages of attainment are possible without mundane jhana, but B. Bodhi disagrees. According to his reading of the suttas, the stage of arahantship is the exception. Ken H 53017 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 0:22am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 323- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [p] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] The characteristic of kukkucca is repentance. Repentance is generally considered a virtue, but the reality of kukkucca is not wholesome, it arises with dosa-múla-citta. Kukkucca which “regrets” the commission of evil and the omission of kusala is different from wholesome thinking about the disadvantages of akusala and the value of kusala. The conventional term “worry” which is also used as translation of kukkucca may not be clear either. When we say that we worry, it may not be the reality of kukkucca but it may be thinking with aversion about an unpleasant object without there being kukkucca. For example, we may worry about the way how to solve a problem in the future; this kind of worry is not the reality of kukkucca. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53018 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 0:37am Subject: Habitual Megalomania ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: 'I am Better' and other false conceits arise from Attachment! Bhikkhus, when what exists, by clinging to what, by holding badly on to what, do such thoughts occur: 'I am superior' or 'I am equal to' or 'I am inferior' ? Venerable Sir, our understanding are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, is initiated by the Blessed One. It would indeed be good if the Blessed One would explain the meaning of this subtle question in detail. Having heard this from the Buddha, the bhikkhus will remember & preserve it! When there is the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body & the mind, bhikkhus, by clinging to, by adhering to eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & the mind, these thoughts occur: 'I am superior' and 'I am equal to' and 'I am inferior'! What do you think, bhikkhus, is the eye permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir... Is the ear permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir... Is the nose permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir... Is the tongue permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir... Is the body permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir... Is the mind permanent or impermanent? Impermanent, Venerable Sir... But without clinging to what is impermanent, suffering, & subject to change, could these thoughts occur: 'I am superior' or 'I am equal' or 'I am inferior ??? No, Venerable Sir... Understanding this, the intelligent Noble Disciple is disgusted with the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body & the mind... Disgust produces disillusion ... This disillusion induces by relinquishment a mental release !!! When detached the mind is unagitated! Being entirely imperturbable one attains Awakening right there & instantly understands: This mind is eternally freed ... !!! Rebirth is ended, this Noble Life is concluded, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond or exceeding this ... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 88 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on 'I Am Superior': Seyyo Sutta (108) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 53019 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 2:30am Subject: Namarupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Rob K, Nina, and all who listen to A. Sujin talks. > > > I was asking about this first insight, knowing nama from rupa. > Rob provided some very helpful feedback below. ... Hallo Phil, Rob K, Nina Perhaps I may join this discussion with a question about the 'namarupapariccheda nana'. This is the first of the 16 nana's that form the system of stages of vipassana- (insight-) meditation a la Mahasi. In fact I don't know which source this nana's have: the Suttas, Buddhaghosa's work ? Second question: what is the relation between nana's and jhana's ? I know this Sujin discussion is not about 'formal' meditation but still there must be a relation between the terms that there are used? Metta Joop 53020 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 2:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > ........ According to his > reading of the suttas, the stage of arahantship is the exception. > > Ken H > Hallo Ken, James I think Ken H is right, but so what? Getting stream-enterer should already be an enormous result. Are you really sorrt for not getting arahant (in this life)? Metta Joop 53021 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 2:45am Subject: Unfinished work htootintnaing Dear Sukin ( and interested members ), You said, ''However if I did have the idea that it is not conducive to the arising and development of satipatthana, then this will be with the idea of "self" and "control", hence wrong view. This then conditions the idea of another more suitable time and place, i.e. meditation retreat. So indeed the very idea of `meditation retreat' is one that encourages self-view. So I point the finger not only at those who go there, but to all those who promote and encourage it! '' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have to ask you whether there is any path a part from stream- entering one that can eradicate wrong view. You seem to be saying 'going to brothals and going to retreats are not different'. I lost your last post to me which is still unfinished. You or Sarah may show me where it is (link me). With Metta, Htoo Naing 53022 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 323- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [p] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Friends, ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] The characteristic of kukkucca is repentance. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. Understandable. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's Cetasika chapter continues: Repentance is generally considered a virtue, but the reality of kukkucca is not wholesome, it arises with dosa-múla-citta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 3 parts in above. The latter 2 parts are clear. I do not understand the first part. 'Generally' here seems to be saying for most people. My questions are 'Who consider repentence as a virtue?' 'What is virtue?' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's book continues: Kukkucca which "regrets" the commission of evil and the omission of kusala is different from wholesome thinking about the disadvantages of akusala and the value of kusala. The conventional term "worry" which is also used as translation of kukkucca may not be clear either. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. That is why I almost always use Paa.li for 'ESSENTIAL BUDDHIST WORDS'. There is no single word that would fit for. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's book continues: When we say that we worry, it may not be the reality of kukkucca but it may be thinking with aversion about an unpleasant object without there being kukkucca. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the problem of using simple English words without ever understanding 'BASIC PAA.LI WORDS'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's book continues: For example, we may worry about the way how to solve a problem in the future; this kind of worry is not the reality of kukkucca. ***** --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly true. Future events are not to be worried with kukucca but with 'dosa alone' that is 'dosa without kukkucca'. In a dosa-citta the possible combinations od dosa-led cetasikas are a. dosa b. dosa and issaa c. dosa and macchariya d. dosa and kukkucca So for future a,b,c are true if there is dosa-cittas depending on object. But d is always (100%) false for the future. d indicates for the past event. It is purely past object even though kukkucca is arising at the present. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I hope Nina or Sarah would reply this post. With respect, Htoo Naing 53023 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 3:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 579 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation of suffering. It is also known as nirodha saccaa. This cessation is because of eradication of tanhaa, which is samudaya saccaa or the truth of the cause of the suffering. Tanhaa is craving. Tanhaa is lobha. Tanhaa is attachment. Tanhaa is greediness. When there is no tanhaa at all then suffering has to cease to exist. Tanhaa is lobha. Lobha is a naama dhamma. Lobha is mentality. I wrote that there are 60 places where lobha or tanhaa or craving originates. This may confuse someone who have not studied dhamma. Stone and water cannot be mixed into one while milk and water can be mixed into one. Naama and ruupa cannot be mixed into one while feeling (naama), pereception (naama), formation (naama), and consciousness (naama) can be mixed into one. 60 places are miscellneous and some are ruupa-dhamma and some are naama-dhamma. The idea that I said 'craving originates from these 60 places' is to mean that 'craving has to arise' when these 60 places are not properly attended. In real sense lobha arises only when lobha-cittas arise. This sentence may confuse you again. When I say 'lobha arises..' I mean lobha cetasika. But lobha cetasika or mental factor of attachment never arises singly. All lobha cetasikas arise only with citta. When lobha cetasika arises with a citta that citta becomes lobha-citta. There are 8 lobha- cittas. These 8 lobha-cittas are repeatedly explained in Dhamma Thread posts. All these 8 lobha-cittas are akusala cittas. They are akusala dhamma. Even if they arise in the middle of kusala actions, they are still akusala and they will bring their consequences. When akusala-dhamma is not known as akusala-dhamma one will not be able to avoid akusala actions. When akusala actions cannot be avoided one will not be pure and when not pure there will be defiled. When defiled then will be bound to the samsaraa. And there will not be any liberation and any peace. These akusala dhamma will be seen when on approaching way to Noble Eightfold Path (NEP). Once on the NEP, there is no more akusala and those who are exactly on NEP will be 1. seeing suffering as they are 2. eliminating the cause of suffering 3. experiencing the cessation of suffering 4. fulfilling all 8 segments in their fullest state NEP is the 4th Noble Truth. It is 'dukkha-nirodha-gaamini-patipada ariya's saccaa'. Simply, it is magga saccaa or it is the truth of the path leading to cessation of suffering. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53024 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 3:43am Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) gazita2002 Hello Phil and other dhamma friends, great post Phil. The A.Sujin talks are good, I agree. Each time I listen I get more from them - just wish I had every discussion that was ever recorded from the group. I want to point out one thing, which you probably know anyway :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Rob K, Nina, and all who listen to A. Sujin talks. > > > I was asking about this first insight, knowing nama from rupa. > Rob provided some very helpful feedback below. > > Today I was jogging, listening to the first talk from India 2004 > (you can hear it in the audio files, it's really excellent.) > ....snip.... > p.s interesting that when I had the clear understanding that helped > me accept my mother's alzheimers about 4 months ago, it also came > while listening to a.sujin while jogging on the exact same sports > field. I do think there is something about exercise or endorphins or > fresh air or something that helps understanding to arise. azita: I don't think its helpful to think like this bec. then there is the possibility that you will attempt to 'create' the right conditions and u know where that leads..... however, I'm sure i've read/heard somewhere that a hindrance to development of panna is a state of dis-ease, but please don't ask me where it comes from. Possibly I heard it from Ven Dhammadharo, but that was long ago and sanna did not mark very accurately. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita > > > > Dear Phil, > > Satipatthana comes in many degrees before the first stage of > insight > > is reached. Now the sense doors cover over the minddoor- for > example > > it seems that seeing is coniually occuring. But the moment of > seeing > > is very brief and then there are many, many mind moments with no > > seeing. Really we live in a dark world lit up by occasional > moments > > of light (it just doesn't seem that way due to ignorance). So now > > everything is very unclear. > > At the moments when namarupapariccheda occur the minddoor is > > apparent so it is very different from now. It must feel like the > > world has been turned over, for that very brief time and then it > is > > back like usual - except that wisdom has seen things as they are- > > this is real understanding of the difference between nama and rupa- > > > not merely thinking one knows the difference. > > Anatta too is clear because impossible to plan or make this > happen, > > the processes of mind are so uncontrollable. And yet even this > world > > shattering experience isn't enough to fully uproot wrong view. It > > remains like a virus in remission, hiding and weak but not fully > > killed- it takes more insight before it is finally gone at the > first > > stage of enlightenment. > > Robertk > > > 53025 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 4:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 580 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The third Noble Truth is the truth of cessation of suffering. Suffering has to cease because of eradication the cause. Eradication is done in four stages. In the first stage eradication of wrong-view is done by stream-entering path knowledge (sota-aapatti magga ~naana). Tanhaa realted to wrong view are eradicate at that first stage even though other tanhaa are still there in sotapams. That is why sotapams do have to be reborn for further 7 lives. Because they still have tanhaa even though tanhaa related to wrong-view or ditthi has been eradicated. In the second stage of maturity or of enlightenment there are further thinning of kaama-tanhaa or craving for sensuality and some aggressive forms of dosa even though both have not been eradicated. This stage is called sakadaagaami magga. When one reaches that path he or she become have less interest in kaama and there is less dosa as compared to sotapams. But they are far far better than puthujanas un-attained individuals. When the third stage arises further eradication of tanhaa which is done by anaagaami magga ~naana or non-returning path knowledge. Those who reach this stage will not return to human village or human realm. Because they do not have any kaama-tanhaa, which is the characteristics of human at birth, and they do not have any dosa, which is also the characteristics of human (everyone has to cry because of dosa). When the fourth or final stage of maturity or at arahatta magga kaala or at the time when defilements-eradicating path knowledge arises all the remaining defilements and all forms of akusala including in the dormant forms or anusaya are eradicated and then the individual becomes a pure individual and he or she is called arahant. As there is no defilements they just have to face their old vipaaka or results of past kamma. As they are not creating new kamma and there is no more life-forming kamma they will not be reborn again. To rerach any of these four stages is to be on the right path. That path is attha`ngika magga or the path that is made up of eight limbs or eight parts. That path leads to cessation of the suffering. It is magga saccaa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53026 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 4:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! matheesha333 Hi Nina, Tep > >N: > > As to doing something else first before vipassana, OK, I think > >differently. Also a scattered mind should be understood as > >conditioned, non-self. One should understand one's accumulations > >perfectly, otherwise enlightenment cannot be attained. > M: The satipattana sutta talks about being aware of the scattered mind as a part of cittanupassana. But the quality of the scattered mind is that there will be very little awareness. Hence after a period of papanca there would be awareness that the mind has been running about (something meditators are quite familiar with!). Such a mind state is not conducive to vpassana/satipattana as being caught up in thoughts there is no direct perception of the here and now, hence the directed meditation in the bikkkuanupassna sutta to help achieve calm. After this, with prolonged observation of dhammas arising and passing away the characteristics of anicca,dukkha and anatta start becomming apparent. It is a matter of seeing patterns inherant in this meaningless dance of the dhammas, and this requires an a mind which can concentrate for a legnth of time. metta Matheesha 53027 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > > ------------------- > Ken H to Howard: > > I think we have agreed in the past that many > ariyans attained > > by bare insight. In other words, jhana was NOT an aspect - > crucial > > or otherwise - of their 'move towards awakening.' > > ................. > > J: > Didn't Bhikkhu Bodhi write an aricle to this group about how a > person can become a sotapanna without jhana but that some level of > jhana is required for the attainments of once-returner, non- > returner, and arahant? > ------------- > > He wrote an article but I don't remember if it was specifically to > this group. Sarah posted it in instalments and Rob M reposted it a > couple of months ago. I'm not sure, but as I remember the article, > the commentaries say that all stages of attainment are possible > without mundane jhana, but B. Bodhi disagrees. According to his > reading of the suttas, the stage of arahantship is the exception. This could be, I didn't really read the article. I was hoping that Christine could link it to us again as it is relevant to this discussion but maybe she doesn't have the link. I'm not entirely sure why I didn't read it the second time when Rob M posted it in its entirety. I guess I wasn't that attracted to reading it. Isn't it kind of silly to be arguing over whether one should be practicing jhana or not- since the Buddha made it so clear that we should? It's like looking for some kind of loophole in the tax code- something that only the greedy would be interested in doing. The fact of the matter is that jhana is not easy so it turns a lot of people off, and they want to find an alternative. The commentators were no different. Anyway, just my thoughts. > > Ken H > Metta, James 53028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, continuation 2 nilovg Hi Tep, op 30-11-2005 05:41 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > My question was about direct knowledge and direct awareness : > > "How is it possible that direct knowledge or direct awareness may > arise when there is an akusala citta at that moment?" ..... Tep: It is almost discouraging that your answers to the above > questions are conditional . ... > What if sati and panna did not arise in the following instant? Or, in a > much worse case, what if one was deluded enough to be unable to > know akusala "truly" because the mind was so contaminated by the > defilements(kilesa)? I think only Stream-winners (and higher) know > akusala truly when it appear or know nama & rupa truly as "non-self" > when they appear. That's why I asked, "But what about us? How do > we 'get there' "? --------- N: If one believes in an immediate result, it is understandable that one becomes discouraged and wonders how to get there. But it does not work that way. Sati and understanding can begin. If there were no beginning, a weak sati and pañña, how could one ever reach the state of sotaapanna? As you often heard, listening, considering, discussing are conditions for the development of understanding. First we notice akusala such as dosa, and then we realize that this is thinking of my dosa. Realizing this is already a step forwards. One begins to see that sati is not thinking. We learn about characteristics of nama and rupa and gradually we begin to see the difference between awareness and unawareness. It is natural to think sometimes of the goal and how to get there, but this is helpful, I find: at such moments there is thinking, no awareness. We forget the task that is right at hand. I remember Khun Sujin saying time and again: develop it, develop it. Worry, discouragement, desire for result, they are not helpful. And then the discouragement is gone. -------- T: You wrote: "it takes very long for understanding to develop as insight, > arising subsequently in stages, before even the stage of sotaapanna > is reached". True. Then, wouldn't it be much more practical for us to > focus our discussion right now on developing the early stages of > understanding? ----- N: Excellent remark. So, we begin with the first stage, realizing the difference between nama and rupa. But let us not talk on the theory, but on seeing and visible object which appear right now. Seeing has a characteristic, it is different from thinking about people and things we notice. Visible object has a characteristic, it appears through eyesense. People and things do not impinge on the eyesense, they are concepts we think of. I heard this before, but it seems that I can never hear enough of it. It takes long before one deeply consider the dhammas that appear. They are anattaa, this should not be mere words. When we read the many suttas about dhammas appearing thorugh the six doors we can be reminded of the present moment. The Buddha taught all the time about the dhammas appearing through the six doors. -------- > Tep: You mentioned Buddhanussati, metta, foulness of the > body, mindfulness of death,.... So I asked: Are you implying that we do not need the "undirected meditation" to develop "direct awareness" (by 'bhavana')? > In Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.10: > Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (Directed and Undirected Meditation) the > term 'undirected meditation' means contemplation(anupassana) by > means of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and 'directed > meditation' is used to develop calm. To me 'bhavana' > means "develop" mental qualities by meditation. ------- N: I could not find this sutta. I have a feeling that there may be confusion of terms, and also different translations. I take bhavana, mental development to include samatha and vipassana. I am not used to the notions of directed and undirected meditation. Mindfulness of Death can arise and then if sati of satipatthana arises, one can learn that such moments of calm are nama, not mine. --------- >> N: We do not "use" anything to develop direct awareness, because it > grows naturally when there is more listening and considering and the > right saññaa of Dhamma remembers and supports sati by being its > proximate cause. > Tep: It is not clear to me what you meant by "the right saññaa of > Dhamma remembers and supports sati by being its proximate cause". ----------- N: It is good you ask. Saññaa marks and remembers when we listen to the Dhamma or read suttas. If we are not passive listeners but we understand what we hear or read, we shall not forget. Saññaa can become a firm foundation for the arising of direct awareness of the dhammas that appear. Another word for awareness is non-forgetfulness. We are often forgetful of nama and rupa, but since we have listened and considered the Dhamma there are conditions for remembrance of the Dhamma and this supports sati. Does this answer your question? --------- T: And what is Sabbatthikakamma.t.thaana ? I am very interested to learn > how to develop direct awareness by "meditation for all ocaasions". Is > this meditation only vipassana? Does it bypass the samatha bhavana? > ........................... N: They are moments of calm in daily life. When there are conditions they can arise. They are ways of kusala, but no need to think of them as a means to develop satipatthana. We see that also in daily life there can be samatha. This is different from samatha developed to the stage of jhana. _------------ >> N: I am not so much thinking of relaxation of thoughts, rather of > abandoning by understanding. > > Tep: This is again back to my confusions and all the above > questions. 'Abandoning by understanding' is at the Arahant's level of > understanding. It is great that you can naturally abandon akusala > vitakka by understanding (pahana parinna). But I am not there yet. ------ N: There are degrees of abandoning. In the course of insight development there are three stages of clear comprehension, pariñña: of what has been understood, ñata-pariñña, of investigation, tiirana-pariñña, and of abandoning, pahaana-pariñña. This overcomes the idea of permanence, etc. It is still mundane. As to eradication: this occurs at the four stages of enlightenment. Of course we are not there yet. But understanding leads to detachment all the way. It is understanding, not we, and therefore there is no place for discouragement or frustration. > ........................... > >> N: Full understanding has to begin, and the question is how and > when? By learning and considering of what is right at hand at this > moment. Only the five khandhas. ... Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what > the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner.... > >> N:Seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha, whatever appears > now is khandha. > > Tep: ... > But whatever khandha appears now is one thing, and whether or not a > worldling may one day "truly" see and know it (that it is anicca, dukkha, > and anatta) is another thing. According to this sutta, Purification of Virtue > is a requisite condition. What else are necessary as requisite conditions? ----- N: The sutta speaks about a virtuous monk. It does not mention expressively requisite conditions. But elsewhere we read about the four parisuddhi siilas, and among these the guarding of the six doorways. Purity of siila, siila visuddhi, means siila together with satipatthana, with right understanding. The conditions for the understanding of the three characteristics: see above. Listening, etc. We always come back to that. You wrote in your other post: Thanks for your kind words, I also appreciated the exchange, in fact it helps my consideration. Nina. 53029 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 11:02am Subject: Reply to Nina's Message #56962 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - Thanks, James for letting me know the message #. (I never saw this post!!) And thank you for the good wishes, James. Nina, you wrote: Hi Howard, best wishes for the grandchild. ---------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) --------------------- This is parting: about jhana texts, please would you not read Rob's post to Tep? He quoted many good texts about righ concentration. --------------------- Howard: Please *not* read the post??? I don't understand the reason not to. (Are you trying to save me from anguish?? ;-)) I think you must have meant something other than you actually wrote - perhaps the very opposite. --------------------- It starts: Worth considering. Nina. op 29-11-2005 20:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > We're leaving for the Dallas, TX area early tomorrow for the birth of > our 2nd granddaughter (on December 2). ======================== With metta, Howard P.S. Nina, James, and all: While flying to Texas, I watched the landscape far below, and I saw patterns in the hills and valleys there due to winds, no doubt. These pattern, quite real, and due to causes and conditions, would not have been visible had I been up close on the the ground, and looking only at the more greatly detailed, "more atomic" reality of things. I only could see the patterns due to the perspective gained by being at a distance and taking more in. It occurred to me that this is why pa~n~natti are more than mere illusion. They are our means of seeing patterns, which amounts to seeing relational structure. Phenomena are not separate and unconnected, but interrelated, and without our perceptual and conceptual mental processing, or an ariyan's wisdom in its stead, one's view would be radically limited and incomplete. 53030 From: nina Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 2:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana jwromeijn Hallo James, Ken I think you are talking about: The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm Metta Joop 53032 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 2:50pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana, continuation 2 ... Conclusion. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I like your post (# 53028) because it is a "complete answer sheet" for all my questions. Admittedly, these questions were asked before. But I was a little surprised that your past answers were very much the same as those in the "answer sheet" ! But why did I keep asking them, again and again? Well, because I kept hoping that one day you would accept the important truth that concentration (samadhi) is the requisite condition for "truly knowing and seeing of nama & rupa". Indeed, there are several suttas in which the Buddha (not Khun Sujin) confirmed that truth. For example, AN XI.1 is one of those suttas: "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." "And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually are? What is its reward?" "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward." "And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?" "Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward." "And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?" "Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward." [end quote] ................. >> Tep: So I asked: Are you implying that we do not >need the "undirected meditation" to develop "direct awareness" >> (by 'bhavana')? >> In Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.10: > Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (Directed and Undirected Meditation) the >> term 'undirected meditation' means contemplation (anupassana) by means of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and 'directed meditation' is used to develop calm. To me 'bhavana' >> means "develop" mental qualities by meditation. ------- >N: I could not find this sutta. I have a feeling that there may be confusion of terms, and also different translations. Tep: Here it is : SN XLVII.10 :Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta, Directed and Undirected Meditation(excerpt). Translated from the Pali by Andrew Olendzki. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-47-010- ao0.html ............... >N: Thanks for your kind words, I also appreciated the exchange, in fact it helps my consideration. Tep: You're welcome ! I always admire your patience in handling my many questions over the years without showing frustration even a tiny bit. Also, thank you very much for your time and kindness. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, (snipped) ........................... > > > >> N: Full understanding has to begin, and the question is how and > > when? By learning and considering of what is right at hand at this > > moment. Only the five khandhas. ... Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner.... > > > >> N:Seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha, whatever appears > > now is khandha. > > > > Tep: ... > > But whatever khandha appears now is one thing, and whether or not a worldling may one day "truly" see and know it (that it is anicca, dukkha, and anatta) is another thing. According to this sutta, Purification of Virtue is a requisite condition. What else are necessary as requisite conditions? > ----- > N: The sutta speaks about a virtuous monk. It does not mention expressively requisite conditions. But elsewhere we read about the four parisuddhi siilas, and among these the guarding of the six doorways. Purity of siila, siila visuddhi, means siila together with satipatthana, with right understanding. The conditions for the > understanding of the three characteristics: see above. Listening, etc. We always come back to that. > > You wrote in your other post: > > Thanks for your kind words, I also appreciated the exchange, in fact it > helps my consideration. > Nina. > 53033 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Vism.XIV,203 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 203. Herein, one should beware of mixing up [the classifications] according to kind and so on. For although feeling associated with unprofitable resultant body-consciousness is subtle according to kind because it is indeterminate, it is nevertheless gross according to individual essence, and so on. And this is said: 'Indeterminate feeling is subtle, painful feeling is gross. The feeling in one with an attainment is subtle, that in one with no attainment is gross. Feeling free from cankers is subtle, feeling accompanied by cankers is gross' (Vbh. 3). And like painful feeling, so also pleasant, etc., is gross according to kind and subtle according to individual essence. **************************** 203. tattha jaatiaadivasena sambhedo pariharitabbo. akusalavipaakakaayavi~n~naa.nasampayuttaa hi vedanaa jaativasena abyaakatattaa sukhumaapi samaanaa sabhaavaadivasena o.laarikaa hoti. vutta~nheta.m``abyaakataa vedanaa sukhumaa. dukkhaa vedanaa o.laarikaa. samaapannassa vedanaa sukhumaa. asamaapannassa vedanaa o.laarikaa. saasavaa vedanaa o.laarikaa. anaasavaa vedanaa sukhumaa´´ti (vibha0 11). yathaa ca dukkhaa vedanaa, eva.m sukhaadayopi jaativasena o.laarikaa sabhaavaadivasena sukhumaa honti. 53034 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 6:42pm Subject: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (Attn. Nina, Jon, Phil, Steve, Howard, Htoo, ..) - Have you seen AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta ? Let me ask you one question to verify my understanding of the jhana factors. The sutta goes as follows: I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?" "Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward." "And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?" "Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." "And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" "Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." "And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" "Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." "And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" "Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." "And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" "Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward." "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." [end quote] Tep: Here we see 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', and 'concentration'. I believe they respectively correspond to somanassa, piti, passaddhi, sukha, and samadhi. According to this sutta, are they supposed to be the jhana factors or are they (except somanassa and sukha) enlightenment factors? Warm regards, Tep =========== 53035 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 7:51pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Robert K. (Attn. James, Jon, Nina, Matheesha, Howard, ...) - > > Before proceeding with this Dhamma discussion may I ask you to > accept my humble apologies for my unfriendly mental actions toward > you in the past? I sincerely hope that from now on we will always > communicate with mutal respects and friendly attitude. Thank you in > advance, my friend. Dear Tep, That is very kind of you and I also apologize for my past unfriendly actions and will try to do better. > > > > The Request: > > > Tep: I'd like to make a note that I have not seen > > >even one sutta that teaches "mundane jhanas". > > >All of the suttas I know, either given by the Buddha or by the > > >Arahants (e.g. Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda), are about > > >the only kind of jhanas as taught by the Buddha; > > > i.e. the jhanas that are "part of the path out of samsara". > > > > My question (or "request") to you is : > > >Can you prove me wrong, please? > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of Walshe > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- > >R: Note that (b) is a special type of samatha meditation giving powers > of mundane vision. Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas > are given a specific category different from the types of samadhi which > result in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements. > > Tep: This sutta is very much the same as AN IV.41, which was > translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Notice that only the first of the four > meditations is about the four arupa-jhanas; mundane or not, it is not > clear. > Note carefully that there are no wordings in this sutta (by Washe or by > TB) which indicate that these four types (a, b, c, d or i, ii, iii, iv) > are "mundane jhanas". > So, so far you have not proved me wrong yet. :-)) ====== But my earleier post gave a quote from Buddhaghosa where he specifically mentions lokiya (mundane) jhanas. Do you accept his position? > ............................... > > III. 2. 7.Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m-(117) The Longer discourse on the > forty > --------------------------------------- > Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means > and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, > right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right > mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with > these seven factors is called noble right concentration together > with the means and the accessories. > > >R: No mention of the 4 jhanas here?E > > Tep: You should look for the definition of "right concentration" > elsewhere, for example, DN 22, to relate to the four jhanas : ========= As I have said I agree that sometimes the four rupa jhanas are given as samma-samadhi - but surely in this sutta we have samma-samadhi defined not by means of the jhanas? Robert 53036 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 1, 2005 11:54pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 324- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [q] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] If we take note of the proximate cause of kukkucca we will better understand what kukkucca is. The proximate cause of kukkucca is akusala kamma through body, speech and mind which has been committed and also kusala kamma through body, speech and mind which has been omitted. We read in the Dhammasangaùi (§1304 and 1305): * "Which are the states that conduce to remorse?: Misconduct in act, word and thought. Besides, all bad states conduce to remorse. Which are the states that do not conduce to remorse? Good conduct in act, word and thought. Besides, no good states (absence of good states) conduce to remorse." * The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 389, 390) explains this passage of the Dhammasangaùi: * "In the exposition of the couplet of what “conduces to remorse” (Dhammasangaùi, §1304), “remorse” arises from what has been done and what has been left undone. Acts of misconduct burn from commission, acts of good conduct burn from omission. Thus a person feels remorse (literally: burns) at the thought, “I have misconducted myself”, “I have left undone the right act”; “I have spoken amiss”, …I have left undone the right thoughts”. Similarly with what does not “conduce to remorse”. Thus a person doing good does not feel remorse over acts of commission or omission." * When we have slandered or spoken harsh words there may be remorse about it afterwards. There can also be remorse about our neglectfulness of kusala, we often waste opportunities for kusala. We may be stingy when there is an opportunity for giving or for praising someone who deserves praise. Or we are neglectful as to the development of right understanding of realities. As a consequence of our omission of kusala regret may arise. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53037 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 0:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Joop (Ken H. and All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo James, Ken > > I think you are talking about: > The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas. Ven. > Bhikkhu Bodhi > > www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > Metta > > Joop > Yes, that was the article I was referring to. Thank you so much for the link! According to the article, jhana isn't a requirement for stream-entry and once-returning, but it usually is for non-returning and most definitely is for arahantship. Bhikkhu Bodhi, as an afterthough, brings up the important issue of the Satipatthana Sutta with its declaration of arahantship without jhana. This is a very thorny issue. I deeply respect and believe the article by Bhante Sujato which explains, in great detail, how the Satipatthana Sutta isn't an authentic teaching of the Buddha and was compiled from various sources: http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/webmind.pdf Metta, James 53038 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 0:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana christine_fo... Hello James, The link you gave is 1.9 Megabytes !! It could create problems for some people when downloading. Try this link for Bhante's 'take' on just the one sutta you mentioned (only 111 kb): http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/satipatthana.pdf metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop (Ken H. and All), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > > Hallo James, Ken > > > > I think you are talking about: > > The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas. Ven. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi > > > > www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > > > Metta > > > > Joop > > > > Yes, that was the article I was referring to. Thank you so much for > the link! According to the article, jhana isn't a requirement for > stream-entry and once-returning, but it usually is for non- returning > and most definitely is for arahantship. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi, as an afterthough, brings up the important issue of the > Satipatthana Sutta with its declaration of arahantship without jhana. > This is a very thorny issue. I deeply respect and believe the article > by Bhante Sujato which explains, in great detail, how the Satipatthana > Sutta isn't an authentic teaching of the Buddha and was compiled from > various sources: > http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/webmind.pdf > > Metta, > James > 53039 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! sukinderpal Dear Tep and Robert, Hope you don't mind my coming in here. ================================= > Tep: It is a matter of right interpretation. :-)) > > This sutta shows that (see e.) the samadhi-bojjhanga factors, which > are similar to the jhana factors (e.g. joy, delight, calm, happiness, ..), > support wisdom. The words "mundane jhanas" are not mentioned here > at all ! Sukin: The logic seems so simple and the answer so obvious, that I suspect that I may be missing something, if so, then please let me know. Doesn't the classification of citta by way of bhumi show that indeed kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara are all considered "mundane" in contrast to lokuttara, "supramundane"? And the latter refer to Nibbana and the cittas that experience it. Why should the fact that "mundane jhana" is not mentioned by word prove that the reference is then to supramundane? Clearly the object of citta mentioned in either of the jhana levels is *not* nibbana? So how can it be anything but mundane? Also I think that we should understand that "Right Concentration" does not have to be a reference to the Right Concentration of the Eightfold path. Obviously the concentration arising with akusala is "wrong" and that which arises with kusala cittas cannot be considered so. So indeed the concentration arising with jhana being the development of kusala of the highest level (except vipassana) must be considered "Right" Concentration and encouraged to be developed. But just because this is also labeled "Right", it does not mean that it should be made to relate to the development of vipassana. The object and objective of the two is quite different. They may be developed together in any individual, however when a citta arising is a moment in which jhana is being developed, at such time there is *no* development of vipassana. The understanding which leads to the development of vipassana has to know any arising dhammas as being just that, including any jhana cittas and this is different from the moments when jhana is being developed. What do you think? :-) Metta, Sukin. 53040 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: Unfinished work sukinderpal Dear Htoo, You miss me or something? :-) ------------------------------------------- You asked: > I lost your last post to me which is still unfinished. You or Sarah may > show me where it is (link me). Sukin: Are you referring to message # 50958 by any chance? I thought it better to just leave it be. But you seem to want to continue…….. -------------------------------------------- Sukin in old post: > ''However if I did have the idea that it is not conducive to the > arising and development of satipatthana, then this will be with the > idea of "self" and "control", hence wrong view. > > This then conditions the idea of another more suitable time and > place, i.e. meditation retreat. So indeed the very idea of > `meditation retreat' is one that encourages self-view. So I point the > finger not only at those who go there, but to all those who promote > and encourage it! '' > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I have to ask you whether there is any path apart from stream- > entering one that can eradicate wrong view. > > You seem to be saying > > 'going to brothals and going to retreats are not different'. Sukin in this post: No I don't think there is any path apart from stream-entry capable of eradicating wrong view. Regarding your conclusion of my view, 'going to brothels and going to retreats are not different', I would like to qualify and explain a bit. The purpose of studying Dhamma is so that there can be better understanding of conditioned realities. The correct intellectual understanding must lead to an increased confidence that the Dhamma to be known is none other than that which appears "now". Hence would it be meaningful to state that "all is dhamma". This implies then, that if this level of confidence is lacking and we are still caught up in ideas about "better time and place", it reflects an as yet weak if not wrong, pariyatti. If patipatti is about a presently arising dhamma, then too should pariyatti be. The realization that pariyatti is not the same as patipatti must not give rise then to the idea of `doing' something in order for the latter to arise. For this is in fact following a "wrong theory", one that seems to deny conditionality and anatta and states to the effect that dhammas can be controlled by some particular conventional activity and/or any decision to "note". There is no control over dhammas, so at any given moment there can be a level of intellectual understanding of what has been conditioned to arise. If indeed the pariyatti is correct, the saddha conditioned by this, will point to the need for acceptance instead of an idea to "have more", i.e. patipatti instead of only pariyatti. Dhamma rules, unaffected by any wishing or wanting for more. Does it sound reasonable that say, a person in whom sati, viriya, panna and such have been accumulated to the extent that patipatti arises quite readily, that he should wish and seek instead to experience pativedha by doing something and going somewhere else? If not, then why not the same with the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti? I think the main problem is that those who meditate, sincerely believe their experiences to be sati/satipatthana when in fact it is as Phil often says, `refined thinking' conditioned by lobha and ditthi. And this being that which is referred to in any discussions about `practice', it becomes harder to convince otherwise. Furthermore, such apparent results occurring more during retreats, this then further increases the value of such concepts, refusing even to acknowledge its status as being just that, concept. But is it not just that, "concepts"? Aren't brothels and retreats equally unreal? Doesn't giving such concepts more importance than it has, detracts from the real purpose of studying the Dhamma, namely to understand conditioned realities? In fact does it not then also increases attachment and wrong view? Some may say that a retreat is better when it comes to the development of samatha/jhana. But even here I would argue that it is "wrong thinking" mostly. It may be true that jhana is impossible to achieve when living in a crowded place. But this is not the point to consider for someone who in daily life, does not have any real understanding of the difference between kusala and akusala and does not really "see" danger in sense objects. Such ideas as going somewhere and doing something then, only becomes an "idea/ideal" to follow. In fact it is rather because one lives in this realm of ideas/ideals that not only one makes a false connection between samatha and vipassana, but even ends up believing that one's experiences during meditation is that of these states or close. So is going to brothel and to retreat the same in terms of developing satipatthana. My most direct answer is it depends on the view behind such thinking. Obviously no one goes to a brothel to practice mindfulness, but neither should anyone expect mindfulness to arise in a retreat. In other words, satipatthana *can* arise in a brothel depending on the persons level of understanding. On the other hand, thinking that one should go to a retreat to increase the chance of satipatthana arising may in fact be a reflection of lack of confidence and understanding. This is a long answer for such a short question, but you asked for it ;- ) Metta, Sukin. 53041 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 2:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello James, > > The link you gave is 1.9 Megabytes !! It could create > problems for some people when downloading. > > Try this link for Bhante's 'take' on just the one sutta you > mentioned (only 111 kb): > http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/satipatthana.pdf > > metta > Chris Funny you mention that because I had problems downloading the book. Being in Egypt, I have a very slow dial-up connection. I wrote to Howard off-list and asked him to send it to me as an attachment, which he happily did. I would be willing to do the same for anyone else who would like to read the book. Just write to me off-list. Christine, the article you linked to does cover some of the basics described in the book, but it doesn't give all of the details. I think it is much more worthwhile to read the book, but just my opinion. Metta, James 53042 From: "seisen_au" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 5:16am Subject: Internal Rupa seisen_au Hi All, Another topic that came on during the recent Cooran gathering was internal/external rupas. My understanding based on passages such as this from the Dhatu-Vibhanga Sutta was that any rupa considered to be within `oneself' was internal. `What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. According to the Vis. and other Commentaries `internal rupas' seem to be limited to the 5 pasaada rupas. This would exclude a lot of rupas which seem to be `within oneself', including the Heart-base. Does this sound correct? Thanks Steve 53043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana- No Dangers ! nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 01-12-2005 13:51 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > M: The satipattana sutta talks about being aware of the scattered > mind as a part of cittanupassana. But the quality of the scattered > mind is that there will be very little awareness. Hence after a > period of papanca there would be awareness that the mind has been > running about (something meditators are quite familiar with!). Such > a mind state is not conducive to vpassana/satipattana as being > caught up in thoughts there is no direct perception of the here and > now, hence the directed meditation in the bikkkuanupassna sutta to > help achieve calm. ------ N: Yes, I found the sutta, thanks to Tep. I try to understand what you mean. I was glad to read your post to James, because here the human side came more to the fore. You have disturbed people coming to your center and try to help them, which I appreciate. When you speak about these things it helps me more to understand you than when quoting suttas. Suttas can be interpreted in different ways. Do you live in Colombo? I feel that it has to be the right time for people to receive Dhamma. That is why internet is so difficult. We never know how people respond. When a person is very disturbed you teach him to concentrate on something, perhaps breathing, and even if this is with lobha at least he cannot think of his mental pains. It is difficult to set rules or think in the way of should or should not. If possible it would be helpful to slowly teach people what is kusala and what is akusala, but again, it depends on the person's capability to receive this. True calm is kusala, it accompanies each kusala citta, but we usually do not notice that there is calm. Also for the development of jhana it is most important to know what kusala is, not just in theory. -------- M: After this, with prolonged observation of dhammas > arising and passing away the characteristics of anicca,dukkha and > anatta start becomming apparent. It is a matter of seeing patterns > inherant in this meaningless dance of the dhammas, and this requires > an a mind which can concentrate for a legnth of time. ------ N: I see it more like khanika samaadhi, momentary concentration, not for a length of time. I also think that if one avoids facing akusala with courage and sincerity, it will always be my dosa, my lobha. Wrong view has to be eradicated first, before lobha and dosa can be eradicated. I quote from what I heard this morning, from Kh Sujin: People are may be distressed when they notice akusala, but at the moment of understanding the citta is kusala, and thus not distressed. Nina. 53044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, continuation 2 ... Conclusion. nilovg Hi Tep, I find sutta interpretation very difficult, see my Co quotes of Sangiti sutta. When going over this I realized how complex the subject is. We have to know what degree of samaadhi with what type of citta. Sure, samaadhi with insight knowledge is stronger, by conditions. Right concentration of the eightfold Path performs its function. Sometimes samaadhi with lokuttara citta is meant, sometimes samaadhi of the arahat. The anaagaami has fulfilled the development of samaadhi, with paññaa. Why? He has eradicated attachment to sense objects. It comes natural with him. Also the arahat. And sure, as is also implied in this sutta, paññaa leads to detachment. Nina. op 01-12-2005 23:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Indeed, there are several suttas in which the Buddha (not Khun Sujin) > confirmed that truth. For example, AN XI.1 is one of those suttas: > > "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > > "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are > as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as > its reward." 53045 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiitisutta and co. Four developments of concentration. nilovg Hi Rob K, Tep,Steve. I looked up the Commentary I have in Pali. I cannot translate all, because it takes too long. I hope Steve can check. Four developments of concentration. I: This is about phala-samaapatti: fruition attainment (those who have developed samatha and vipassana). And here these are jhanas produced afterwards by the arahat (kiin'aasavassa). II: This is in order to drive away torpor. It is the knowledge of divine eye of the arahat. He causes the arising of a luminous citta having jhana attainment as a basis (paadaka-jjhaana-samaapattim). III, this refers to the arahat. What is said of feeling also pertains to saññaa, cetanaa. He sees that, dependent on the arising of avijjaa, feeling arises. Dependent on craving, kamma, dependent on contact, feeling. How does he understand feeling? Paying attention to impermanence he sees its destruction, paying attention to dukkha he sees its danger, paying attention to anattaa he sees its emptiness. He realizes the dependent origination in reverse: because of the cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of feeling, etc. IV: This is ruupa: here the same method is to be applied. This is the development of concentration based on jhaana (paadaka-jjhaana-samaadhi-bhaavanaa) in the case of the knowledge of canker-destruction. ***** Nina. op 01-12-2005 02:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Digha Nikaya, sangiti sutta (sutta 33) page 488 of Walshe > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----- >> R: Note that (b) is a special type of samatha meditation giving powers > of mundane vision. Thus in these two suttas the four mundane jhanas > are given a specific category different from the types of samadhi which > result in sati-sampajana or the destrution of the defilements. > > Tep: This sutta is very much the same as AN IV.41, which was > translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Notice that only the first of the four > meditations is about the four arupa-jhanas; mundane or not, it is not > clear. The second one (i.e. b.: "Here, a monk attends to the perception > of light, he fixes his mind to the perception of day, by night as by day, > by day as by night.") is 'aloka-sanna', NOT the four rupa-jhanas. 53046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Internal Rupa nilovg Hi Steve, I just thought of you while doing the Pali of Sangiti Co. As to internal, external, there is one classification in the Vis coming to my mind, quoted from the Vis. series: we read in Vis. Ch XIV, 73: < Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality).> N: the Pali word attabhaava is here translated as selfhood or personality. It can also be translated as individuality. The Expositor (II, p. 404) explains: ³Because it is grasped by foolish folk, as Œthis body or this collection of the five aggregates is my self,¹ therefore both the bodily frame or this collection of the five aggregates is called Œself-state¹ (attabhaava, i.e. personality). ŒIncluded in personality¹ is comprised in and depending on just that.¹ Individuality can be used to refer to the rupas in one¹s body. The Tiika explains: ------- The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 231) states : ----- As to the words of the Visuddhimagga: , the Tiika explains that this is stated according to the Suttanta method. Here the text refers to Œone¹s own¹ and another person in the conventional sense. Thus not according to the Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha dhammas. ***** NIna. op 02-12-2005 14:16 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@...: > According to the Vis. and other Commentaries `internal rupas' seem > to be limited to the 5 pasaada rupas. This would exclude a lot of > rupas which seem to be `within oneself', including the Heart-base. > Does this sound correct? 53047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada nilovg Hi Larry, Ven. Narada wrote about this in this preface: parts of Dhamma (pada is verse or part of a sentence, we use the term in Pali poetry) or Path of Dhamma. Nina. op 01-12-2005 02:13 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Hi Sarah and Nina, > > Thanks for the extra material. I still haven't settled on a trans. for > "dhammapada". So far "dhamma path" seems ok. "Dhamma verses" is > problematic because "dhammapada" is singular. "Dhamma verse" doesn't > work because there are many verses. "Piece of dhamma" or 'dhamma > fragment" seems a little uncharacteristic. "Dhamma footing" is a > possibility. I was even considering "dhamma trek". "Dhamma foot" or > "foot dhamma", no. How would you translate it? 53048 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 323- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [p] nilovg Dear Htoo, virtue: wholesome. As to generally: people who have not studied the Dhamma think that it is good to regret something. Htoo: In a dosa-citta the possible combinations od dosa-led cetasikas are a. dosa b. dosa and issaa c. dosa and macchariya d. dosa and kukkucca So for future a,b,c are true if there is dosa-cittas depending on object. But d is always (100%) false for the future. d indicates for the past event. It is purely past object even though kukkucca is arising at the present. ------ N: well expressed. I agree about the necessity of Pali use. But since many people do not know Pali it is good to also add the English. Nina. op 01-12-2005 12:04 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > 'Generally' here seems to be saying for most people. > > My questions are > > 'Who consider repentence as a virtue?' > 'What is virtue?' 53049 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 11:58am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 2:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 323- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [p] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, ------ > N: well expressed. > I agree about the necessity of Pali use. But since many people do not know > Pali it is good to also add the English. > Nina. > op 01-12-2005 12:04 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > > > 'Generally' here seems to be saying for most people. > > > > My questions are > > > > 'Who consider repentence as a virtue?' > > 'What is virtue?' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind answer. With respect, Htoo Naing 53051 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 2:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiitisutta and co. Four developments of concentration. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you very much. I was delighted by what you wrote: >N: > How does he understand feeling? Paying attention to impermanence he sees its destruction, paying attention to dukkha he sees its danger, paying attention to anattaa he sees its emptiness. > He realizes the dependent origination in reverse: because of the cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of feeling, etc. Tep: But most of the time I see emptiness of feeling after having seen its impermanence (arising and passing away). Regards, Tep ========== 53052 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 3:16pm Subject: Re: Unfinished work htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Thanks for your extensive reply. I really appreciate it. I think I cannot follow your wisdom and proficiency in English. Because your post is intellect-picking. At the end of your post I felt exhausted (at least mentally) because of high demand to understand what has been written. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, You miss me or something? :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I miss you and your wisdom. And I do know that I left some post to reply. I left it at that time because of its length and because of limitation of time. I do not have other thing or things to miss. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You asked: > I lost your last post to me which is still unfinished. You or Sarah may > show me where it is (link me). Sukin: Are you referring to message # 50958 by any chance? I thought it better to just leave it be. But you seem to want to continue…….. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I will re-read it again. Because I left it in the middle. As you suggest I may not continue it. But if there are points to discuss I may continue it. Thanks, it is 50958. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Sukin in old post: > ''However if I did have the idea that it is not conducive to the > arising and development of satipatthana, then this will be with the > idea of "self" and "control", hence wrong view. > > This then conditions the idea of another more suitable time and > place, i.e. meditation retreat. So indeed the very idea of > `meditation retreat' is one that encourages self-view. So I point the > finger not only at those who go there, but to all those who promote > and encourage it! '' --------------------------------------------------------------------- My old reply [Htoo] > Htoo: > I have to ask you whether there is any path apart from stream- > entering one that can eradicate wrong view. > You seem to be saying > 'going to brothals and going to retreats are not different'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Sukin: Sukin in this post: No I don't think there is any path apart from stream-entry capable of eradicating wrong view. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If so, why do you bother while ONLY stream-entering-path-knowldge does its own work? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Regarding your conclusion of my view, 'going to brothels and going to retreats are not different', I would like to qualify and explain a bit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can guess beforehand. But I will see what you write here. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The purpose of studying Dhamma is so that there can be better understanding of conditioned realities. The correct intellectual understanding must lead to an increased confidence that the Dhamma to be known is none other than that which appears "now". Hence would it be meaningful to state that "all is dhamma". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I accept 'the importance of understanding'. One Venerable said, 'Is that not enough to know things are impermanent? Would you be reading for many years without the help of experts to understand all the conditionality? I do not stop you or hinder you, Upasakaa. But you should put your self on practice.' Retreats do preach Dhamma and these Dhamma are expounded by experts. This teaching is to increase understanding. If this is not what is the reason of arranging retreats. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This implies then, that if this level of confidence is lacking and we are still caught up in ideas about "better time and place", it reflects an as yet weak if not wrong, pariyatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are referring to non-Myanmar Buddhists and especially Westerners. Saddha has its own character. When saddha arises in people who have not learned anything yet it is still saddhaa. You seem to be saying that 'To increase confidence one should read all 7 texts of abhidhammaa and other texts'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If patipatti is about a presently arising dhamma, then too should pariyatti be. The realization that pariyatti is not the same as patipatti must not give rise then to the idea of `doing' something in order for the latter to arise. For this is in fact following a "wrong theory", one that seems to deny conditionality and anatta and states to the effect that dhammas can be controlled by some particular conventional activity and/or any decision to "note". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This seems you have not met any good retreats and you must have experienced bad regarding retreats. But one thing I agree is pariyatti and patipatti have to be the same 'IN ESSENCE' but not the same in cause. Pariyatti is one and patipatti is another. Potthila Thera was an elder. He had learnt all the teachings taught by elder Theras and The Buddha. His knowledge and understanding was sufficient for liberation. If he was to be conferred he would be 'the bearer of all teachings'. This can be said as 'the bearer of 3-baskets' 'Tipitakadhara'. The Buddha teased him 'tuccha, tuccha, tuccha..'. Sorry for Paa.li word but this is the accurate sounnd that The Buddha said. Potthila became doubt as he thought he attained defilement-eradicating-path-knowledge. He also taught Dhamma- students (Buddhist monks) and even his pupils attained arahatship with his teachings. But he had been just ordinary monk (puthujana). He approached The Buddha and he was transferred to Sariputta and this great Thera again transferred him to junior and junior monks down to 7-year-old samanera. Finally samanera accept this great monk as his student. ONLY WITH PRACTCE HE BECAME AN ARAHAT WITHIN A SHORT TIME. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: There is no control over dhammas, so at any given moment there can be a level of intellectual understanding of what has been conditioned to arise. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I accept and agree. Those who go to retreats are taught Dhamma by their teachers there. They are examined on a regular basis. Say one chose a place (a retreat) and a time (3 months from Visak). He may be sitting with wrong view. But frequency-wise who will have much more akusala? a) those in the middle of struggling family life like sending children to their school in the middle of noisy hell. b) those at a retreat listening to Dhamma, asking Dhamma questions to their teachers, sitting in peace, sending metta, chanting Buddha's Attributes, Dhamma Attributes, Sangha's Attributes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If indeed the pariyatti is correct, the saddha conditioned by this, will point to the need for acceptance instead of an idea to "have more", i.e. patipatti instead of only pariyatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Text reading, text translation, text writing, text learning to the most is for those who enter the Order of The Sangha even though this may help lay people. There DO have difference between pariyatti and patipatti. If NOT there will not be these names separately. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dhamma rules, unaffected by any wishing or wanting for more. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. Those who are mature in Dhamma know. Those who have learnt know. But zeal (chanda) is not attachment (lobha). Without zeal or wish (chanda) one will never attain enlightenment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Does it sound reasonable that say, a person in whom sati, viriya, panna and such have been accumulated to the extent that patipatti arises quite readily, that he should wish and seek instead to experience pativedha by doing something and going somewhere else? If not, then why not the same with the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not clear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think the main problem is that those who meditate, sincerely believe their experiences to be sati/satipatthana when in fact it is as Phil often says, `refined thinking' conditioned by lobha and ditthi. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see is that those who never do meditation will be thinking these refined things to be more refined. Reading is reading, understanding is understanding. Unless on the path reading will not be patipatti. Lobha does arise even in Anaagams or non-returners. Why bother it? And ditthi is the main target to eliminate and this is the nmain reason that retreats are for. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And this being that which is referred to in any discussions about `practice', it becomes harder to convince otherwise. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You may agree if I say 'If some one believes that if he goes to a retreat and he can force sati and panna to arise and following the programs of practice he will not attain anything but ditthi or wrong view'. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Furthermore, such apparent results occurring more during retreats, this then further increases the value of such concepts, refusing even to acknowledge its status as being just that, concept. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) Intelligent words. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But is it not just that, "concepts"? Aren't brothels and retreats equally unreal? Doesn't giving such concepts more importance than it has, detracts from the real purpose of studying the Dhamma, namely to understand conditioned realities? In fact does it not then also increases attachment and wrong view? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, you can choose what you like even though there is no you at all. Sumedho chose to became a Sammasambuddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Some may say that a retreat is better when it comes to the development of samatha/jhana. But even here I would argue that it is "wrong thinking" mostly. It may be true that jhana is impossible to achieve when living in a crowded place. But this is not the point to consider for someone who in daily life, does not have any real understanding of the difference between kusala and akusala and does not really "see" danger in sense objects. Such ideas as going somewhere and doing something then, only becomes an "idea/ideal" to follow. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) Ideal? Isn't that a concept. Then you would smile. I smile. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In fact it is rather because one lives in this realm of ideas/ideals that not only one makes a false connection between samatha and vipassana, but even ends up believing that one's experiences during meditation is that of these states or close. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beautiful. Right. I agree. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So is going to brothel and to retreat the same in terms of developing satipatthana. My most direct answer is it depends on the view behind such thinking. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Wise answer, really. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Obviously no one goes to a brothel to practice mindfulness, --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: but neither should anyone expect mindfulness to arise in a retreat. In other words, satipatthana *can* arise in a brothel depending on the persons level of understanding. On the other hand, thinking that one should go to a retreat to increase the chance of satipatthana arising may in fact be a reflection of lack of confidence and understanding. This is a long answer for such a short question, but you asked for it ;- ) Metta, Sukin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks a lot. Rob K may say again our discussions are 'entertaining'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53053 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 4:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana kenhowardau Hi Joop and James, ----------------------------- KH: > > According to his > reading of the suttas, the stage of arahantship is the exception. Joop: > Hallo Ken, James I think Ken H is right, but so what? Getting stream-enterer should already be an enormous result. Are you really sorry for not getting arahant (in this life)?> ---------------------------- KH: Stream-entry would indeed be an enormous result - infinitely more enormous than jhana absorption. In a way, however, it is more realistically attainable for a householder than is jhana. Vipassana has only one hindrance (ignorance of the Dhamma), which can be overcome by Dhamma study. Jhana has five hindrances, and they (for example, sense delight) are virtually inescapable while living the household life. ------------------------------------------ Joop in a separate post: > Hallo James, Ken > > > > I think you are talking about: > > The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas. Ven. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi > > > > www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm ------------------------------------------- Thanks Joop, I learn a little more from that article every time I read it. BB starts off with some fairly definite opinions, but then seems to talk himself out of them. One of the good points he makes is that a Non-returner has permanently eradicated the defilements (including the hindrances to jhana), and so jhana should be easy for him - if that is what he wants. Another good point is contained in the opening paragraph: "When the bhikkhu has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline, <. . .> he goes off into solitude and cleanses his mind of the "five hindrances." When his mind has been so cleansed, he enters and dwells in the four jhanas . . ." (end quote) What do you think is meant by, "has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline?" (The usual wording, I think, is, "Having established himself in morality.") There have been posts on this by Kom, among others. Kom (as he then was) gave the example of being kind and generous to one's own children: when is it genuine kindness and generosity and when is it attachment? It is very hard to know, and so it is very hard to avoid one and develop the other. In other words, it is very hard to become "established in morality." It has also been asked (by Kom again, I think), "When you concentrate on breath and there is (say) neutral feeling, is that the neutral feeling that accompanies kusala citta or is it the neutral feeling that accompanies attachment (akusala citta)?" If we don't know for sure then we are far from being "established in morality" and so we are very far from being able to "suppress the hindrances," and we are even farther again from being able to practice jhana. I think the people we see claiming - on DSG and elsewhere - to be jhana practitioners and jhana teachers are talking about a type of jhana that is very different from the one found in the Theravada texts. ----------------------------------- <. . .> James: > Isn't it kind of silly to be arguing over whether one should be practicing jhana or not- since the Buddha made it so clear that we should? ----------------------------------- Hmmm, years of patient DSG discussion (on how the Buddha made it clear that mundane jhana was not essential) are swept aside without so much as a mention. :-) ------------------------------------------------- James: > It's like looking for some kind of loophole in the tax code- something that only the greedy would be interested in doing. The fact of the matter is that jhana is not easy so it turns a lot of people off, and they want to find an alternative. The commentators were no different. -------------------------------------------------- Actually, it is not like looking for a loophole. The Dhamma that is elucidated in the commentaries and discussed on DSG is a teaching to be understood: it is not a list of things to do. We lose our way as soon as we ask, "What's in it for me? Can I become enlightened? What do I have to do?" There are only dhammas. The conditioned dhammas that are conventionally known as "KenH" are ONLY conditioned dhammas - they are no more my self than are the conditioned dhammas that are conventionally known as James or Joop. ---------------------- >Anyway, just my thoughts. > Metta, James --------------------- Likewise :-) Ken H 53054 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 5:08pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Robert K - I appreciate your straightforward and concise reply. I will try to apply your style as much as possible. >R: That is very kind of you and I also apologize for my past >unfriendly actions and will try to do better. Tep: Thank you so much for your kusala cetana. :-) ............. > >Tep: Note carefully that there are no wordings in this sutta (by Washe or by TB) which indicate that these four types (a, b, c, d or i, ii, iii, iv) are "mundane jhanas". > > So, so far you have not proved me wrong yet. :-)) ====== > RobK: But my earlier post gave a quote from Buddhaghosa where he specifically mentions lokiya (mundane) jhanas. Do you accept his position? Tep: I know the word because I also have a copy of The Visuddhimagga. Yes, I accept and appreciate his position -- in fact, I have learned a great deal from the Venerable Buddhaghosa. By the way, Bhikkhu Bodhi also explains jhana development in stages too. However, my only concern in this discussion (as stated at the beginning of the thread) is in proving that the Buddha and his arahant disciples did not talk about "mundane" jhana in any suttas. Why? Because the label "mundane jhanas" was adopted many hundred years later. ........... > > Tep: You should look for the definition of "right concentration" > >elsewhere, for example DN 22, to relate to the four jhanas : ========= >RobK: As I have said I agree that sometimes the four rupa jhanas are given as samma-samadhi - but surely in this sutta we have samma- samadhi defined not by means of the jhanas? Tep: It is good to agree that samma-samadhi = four rupa jhanas in several suttas. Now, about this sutta (AN IV.41) I don't understand why you think the other three cases [b. Gaining knowledge and vision (nana- dassana-patilabha); c. Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati- sampajana); d. The destruction of the corruptions. (asavanama khaya)] are also 'samma-samadhi'. The definition of samma-samadhi is so precise (as in DN 22 and SN XLV.8 : Magga-vibhanga Sutta) that there is no need to interpret it differently. Could you please elaborate as to why you think the outcomes of b., c., and d. are the same as the "right concentration"? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > (snipped) 53055 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, continuation 2 ... Conclusion. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina: I read through the following comments you made, and I totally agreed with you. > Nina:, > I find sutta interpretation very difficult, see my Co quotes of Sangiti > sutta. When going over this I realized how complex the subject is. > We have to know what degree of samaadhi with what type of citta. Sure, samaadhi with insight knowledge is stronger, by conditions. > Right concentration of the eightfold Path performs its function. > Sometimes samaadhi with lokuttara citta is meant, sometimes samaadhi of the arahat. > The anaagaami has fulfilled the development of samaadhi, with paññaa. Why? > He has eradicated attachment to sense objects. It comes natural with him. Also the arahat. And sure, as is also implied in this sutta, paññaa leads to detachment. > Tep: Yes, some suttas are "very difficult". They have to be carefully studied and investigated, if possible. Of course, there are some high- level suttas are beyond my understanding, no matter how many times I have studied them and related them to several other suttas. Warm regards, Tep ======= ---------------------------------. > op 01-12-2005 23:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Indeed, there are several suttas in which the Buddha (not Khun Sujin) > > confirmed that truth. For example, AN XI.1 is one of those suttas: > > > > "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > > > > "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are > > as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as > > its reward." > 53056 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Sukin (Attn. RobK) - At the beginning of the message #53039, you wrote : "Hope you don't mind my coming in here". Not at all, Sukin, not at all ! After having made several comments, you asked : "What do you think? :-) " Tep: The comments reflect that you are very thoughtful -- in the sense of being full of thoughts. These thoughts are clever, maybe too clever, 'cause I think they fly over the simple issue of the discussion between RobertK and me. [Message # 53010 ] > > Tep: I'd like to make a note that I have not seen > >even one sutta that teaches "mundane jhanas". > >All of the suttas I know, either given by the Buddha or by the > >Arahants (e.g. Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda), are about > >the only kind of jhanas as taught by the Buddha; > > i.e. the jhanas that are "part of the path out of samsara". > > My question (or "request") to you is : > >Can you prove me wrong, please? ++++++++++++++++++++++ Tep: So, you see, the request was very simple. Sukin's Thoughts: ------------------------ 1. The logic seems so simple and the answer so obvious, that I suspect that I may be missing something, if so, then please let me know. Tep: Yes, I think so. 2. Doesn't the classification of citta by way of bhumi show that indeed kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara are all considered "mundane" in contrast to lokuttara, "supramundane"? And the latter refer to Nibbana and the cittas that experience it. Tep: Yes, it does. 3. Why should the fact that "mundane jhana" is not mentioned by word prove that the reference is then to supramundane? Clearly the object of citta mentioned in either of the jhana levels is *not* nibbana? So how can it be anything but mundane? Tep: The fact is that there is only one kind of jhanas as taught by the Buddha. The four arupa jhanas define the eighth path factor (samma- samadhi). Period. It is plain and simple. The object of citta is not mentioned in the definition of samma-samadhi. So why should we bother? If the Buddha did not talk about it, then why worry about those concepts you have read from the Abhidhamma books? 4. Also I think that we should understand that "Right Concentration" does not have to be a reference to the Right Concentration of the Eightfold path. Obviously the concentration arising with akusala is "wrong" and that which arises with kusala cittas cannot be considered so. So indeed the concentration arising with jhana being the development of kusala of the highest level (except vipassana) must be considered "Right" Concentration and encouraged to be developed. Tep: Obviouly the concentration arising with the first jhana through the fourth jhana is kusala because it is said so at the very beginning as follows: "There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities enters & remains in the first jhana ..." [See AN IV.41, AN IX.35, AN IX.43, and DN 22]. Therefore, it is clear that this kind of concentration is "right" like you said above. It is also right in the sense of the "Right Concentration of the Eightfold path" because DN 22 and SN XLV.8 : Magga-vibhanga Sutta state exactly that. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep and Robert, > > Hope you don't mind my coming in here. > ================================= (snipped) 53057 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 9:47pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > >that sometimes the four rupa jhanas are > given as samma-samadhi - but surely in this sutta we have samma- > samadhi defined not by means of the jhanas? > > Tep: It is good to agree that samma-samadhi = four rupa jhanas in > several suttas. Now, about this sutta (AN IV.41) I don't understand why > you think the other three cases [b. Gaining knowledge and vision (nana- > dassana-patilabha); c. Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati- > sampajana); d. The destruction of the corruptions. (asavanama > khaya)] are also 'samma-samadhi'. > The definition of samma-samadhi is so precise (as in DN 22 and SN > XLV.8 : Magga-vibhanga Sutta) that there is no need to interpret it > differently. Could you please elaborate as to why you think the > outcomes of b., c., and d. are the same as the "right concentration"? ___________ Dear Tep, I wasn't clear, I meant this sutta: Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m-(117) The Longer discourse on the > forty > --------------------------------------- > Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means > and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, > right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right > mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with > these seven factors is called noble right concentration together > with the means and the accessories. > Robert > 53058 From: "susan" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member susie11uk Hi Sarah, Thank you very much for your lovely welcome and lol with me, sometimes I think I'm funny............ lol. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner but my mum was taken into hospital rather suddenly. She gets out tomorrow so life should settle soon and I look forward to writing a more in depth reply than I'm able to now. I have one quick question before I go if you or anyone else doesn't mind helping me out with. It was a conversation I had with my mum about duality and non duality. We both seem to think very differently about it and we both seem to think we understand it all....but neither do, not really. As far as I can understand from Buddhism, life is an illusion or how we perceive life to be, and I think I have mistakenly looked at Nirvana as something to achieve, but for some reason I am now thinking that Samsara and Nirvana must be the same thing. Is it how we view life that makes the duality seem real? So where as I was looking for a goal so to speak, I'm more thinking this is within me already should I want to look at life or suffering in a different way. But.........I'm not sure! I started with Theravada Buddhism and seemed to slip into every type of Buddhism and have learned that different branches mean different things and now I'm confused. Sometimes I think the idea of Nirvana is an escape route in my mind as opposed to accepting and enhancing my life as it is now. I've read too much and applied to little me thinks to understand anything in any depth. Thanks again Sarah, and I really look forward to learning and applying the Buddhist path. susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member > Hi Susan, > > I'd also like to welcome you here and to encourage you to raise any topics > you're interested in. <....> 53059 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Ken H: Vipassana has only one hindrance (ignorance of the Dhamma), which can be overcome by Dhamma study. Jhana has five hindrances, and they (for example, sense delight) are virtually inescapable while living the household life. James: I'm not sure why you state this so categorically. All a householder needs to do is meditate on a kasina for a sufficient duration and the five hindrances will be overcome/suppressed. It is the one-pointedness of mind which overcomes the hindrances, not any outside factors. Really, it has nothing to do with being a householder or not. For those householders who have never meditated before, a retreat would be a good idea to get a firm establishment of the practice. Also, a householder can observe the Uposatha Day each month, observe the eight precepts, maybe go to a Buddhist temple, and practice meditation for several hours- sometimes all night. In December the Uposatha Day with be the 16th: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha.html Ken H: I think the people we see claiming - on DSG and elsewhere - to be jhana practitioners and jhana teachers are talking about a type of jhana that is very different from the one found in the Theravada texts. James: You "think"? This statement is very vague and I'm not sure what you mean. You might also "think" that pigs fly but that doesn't make it so. Ken H: Hmmm, years of patient DSG discussion (on how the Buddha made it clear that mundane jhana was not essential) are swept aside without so much as a mention. :-) James: The Buddha didn't teach anything about "mundane jhana"- that is an invention of the commentaries. Yes, I can quite easily sweep aside things that the Buddha didn't teach. You should try it some time. ;-)) A good sweeping is purifying for the mind. ;-) Metta, James 53060 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 2, 2005 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for this additional info from Ven. Narada. One thought that occurred is that possibly "pada" (singular) is meant, as "verse", to indicate the singular, stand alone nature of each verse. As for "dhamma", I usually don't like to translate "dhamma" as "truth" or some such. It seems to me that, unless specifically qualified, "dhamma" is very general, meaning something like "particular". So "dhammapada" is a verse that stands alone about a particular subject. The closest I can come to a word match for this interpretation of "Dhammapada" is "Aphorisms". What do you think? Larry 53061 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 0:31am Subject: Contentment is the best Treasure! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Contentment (santutthi) is the most supreme Treasure of all! There is the case where a Bhikkhu is content with whatever old robe at all, with whatever old almsfood at all , with whatever old hut at all, and with whatever old medicine for curing sickness at all. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent! Thus was it said. And with reference to exactly this salient contentment with little was this said... AN VIII 30 And how is a Bhikkhu content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with it's wings as its only burden, even so is he content with a set of robes to protect his body & almsfood to pacify his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only simple necessities as robes, belt, bowl and razor along. This is how a Bhikkhu is content... DN 2 There is the case where a Bhikkhu is content with whatever old robe at all, with whatever old almsfood at all , with whatever old hut at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old requisite at all. He does not, for the sake of any requisite, do anything unsuitable or inappropriate. When not getting any requisites, he is not troubled. When getting requisites, he uses it unattached to it, not obsessed, blameless, seeing the drawbacks & dangers, he realizes the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old requisite at all, exalt himself or disparage others. Thus is he clever, energetic, alert, and aware! This, Bhikkhus, is called a Bhikkhu standing quite firm in the ancient, original lineage of the Noble Ones... AN IV 28 Good are friends, when need arises, good is contentment with just what one has, good is merit, when life is at an end, good is the elimination of all Suffering! Dhammapada 331 Solitude is happiness for one who is content, who has heard the Dhamma & clearly sees. Harmlessness is happiness in all worlds, harmlessness towards all living beings. Udana 10 Therefore be capable, upright, & straight, easy to instruct, gentle, & not proud, content & easy to support with little, with few duties, living simple & light, with peaceful abilities, mastering all, modest, & with no greed for support. Do not do even a minor thing that the wise & noble would criticize. Sutta Nipata I, 8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 53062 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 1:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Joop and James, > ........ Hallo Ken H, James, all I only react to themes that are more or less directed to me; a part (about jhana for example) are more James' theme. He has already reacted. Ken: "Vipassana has only one hindrance (ignorance of the Dhamma), which can be overcome by Dhamma study. Jhana has five hindrances, and they (for example, sense delight) are virtually inescapable while living the household life. Joop: Two statements with which I not agree: - Perhaps you don't mean insight-meditation also known as vipassana when saying it, but in my meditation and especially with the aim having enough concentration to be mindful, I have to do with the five hindrances that can come back now and then - Of course hindrances are inescapable in life: for a socalled householder (a ridiculous oldfashioned term) and for the monk (perhaps daily life of monks is to much idealized) But hindrances are object with which something can be done, being mindful about the occurence of one of them in me in the first place. It's not possible to describe the meditation process in the role of hindrances in it in short, but this is how in works for me. Ken: " What do you think is meant by, "has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline?" (The usual wording, I think, is, "Having established himself in morality.") " Joop: I don't know. To me being moral is as less as possible 'discipline'; it's more 'responsibility', a word that is hardly used in DSG and I regret that. I try to be moral (according the five preceps, acccording the sila of the NEP, and when I'm mindful: to recognize hate and desire in me). And especially but not exclusively when I start meditation I try to be as pure as possible for me. Sometimes when I know I'm not I start by doing metta-meditation (do you know this exercises?) But I'm afraid that's not an answer. Ken: "In other words, it is very hard to become 'established in morality.' Joop: Of course: I'm a failable human being, not a saint. But that's the reason I meditate. I get the impression you turn things and state: because I am not a saint, I cannot meditate, is that correct? I have not enough experience in samatha meditation and not at all in trying to be in jhana but I think the (moral) preparations are more or less the same. Ken: "Actually, it is not like looking for a loophole. The Dhamma that is elucidated in the commentaries and discussed on DSG is a teaching to be understood: it is not a list of things to do. We lose our way as soon as we ask, "What's in it for me? Can I become enlightened? What do I have to do?" " Joop: The commentaries don't have much authority to me; they are sometime giving very scholastic interpretations. To me the Dhamma is partly a list of things to do; especially the Noble Eightfold Path is interpreted in 'my Theravada' as eight groups of activities (a 'path' is something I walk because I want to walk it); I know that not the opinion of the 'founders' of DSG. In the second part of your statement you are mixing things in a way they should not been mixed. Having greed to get enlightened, to get a stream-enterer or higher, to get a good rebirth: all that kind of things are about the future. And I agree with you we should live in here and know and not bother about our future. But you mix that with the DSG-ideology for wishing nothing, having no volition at all, to deny any 'free will'. Maybe I'm to much a westerner but I disagree with that: we should combine having little illusions about the nobleness of our wishes with the effort to do it. Ken: " I think the people we see claiming - on DSG and elsewhere - to be jhana practitioners and jhana teachers are talking about a type of jhana that is very different from the one found in the Theravada texts." Joop: Because this statement can also be applied to (formal) vipassana-meditation, a reaction: In general I prefer this formulae: there are different interpretation possible of the teachings of the Buddha. That of Sujin and the DSG- founders are one of them; that of vipassana practioners and vipassana teachers is another, and that of jhana-practioners and jhana teachers is (partly) another. Metta Joop 53063 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 3:17am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 325- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [r] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] We read in the Middle Length Sayings (III, 129, Discourse on Fools and the Wise) about the anguishes which may be experienced by a fool who has done wrong deeds through body, speech and mind. He experiences anguish because other people talk about his akusala, and thus he acquires a bad name. He fears punishment for his evil deeds and therefore he experiences anguish. Moreover, he has remorse because of his evil deeds and his neglectfulness as to kusala. We read: * "And again, monks, while a fool is on a chair or bed or lying on the ground, at such a time those evil deeds that he has formerly wrongly done by body, speech and thought rest on him, lie on him, settle on him. Monks, as at eventide the shadows of the great mountain peaks rest, lie and settle on earth, so, monks, do these evil deeds that the fool has formerly wrongly done by body, speech and thought rest, lie and settle on him as he is on a chair or bed or lying on the ground. Thereupon, monks, it occurs thus to the fool: ”Indeed what is lovely has not been done by me, what is skilled has not been done, no refuge against fearful (consequences) has been made, evil has been done, cruelty has been done, violence has been done. Insofar as there is a bourn for those who have not done what is lovely, have not done what is skilled, have not made a refuge against fearful (consequences), who have done evil, cruelty and violence, to that bourn I am going hereafter”. He grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, wails and falls into disillusionment…" * The committing of akusala kamma and the omitting of kusala kamma is a condition for remorse and because of this remorse one is unhappy, one does not have peace of mind. Akusala kamma can produce an unhappy rebirth and also unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of life. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53064 From: "seisen_au" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Internal Rupa seisen_au Dear Nina, Thanks once again for your help. Steve understood here as 'internal' and that of another person >as 'external', the Tiika explains that this is stated according to >the Suttanta method. Here the text refers to 'one¹s own¹ and another >person in the conventional sense. Thus not according to the >Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha dhammas. > > ***** > NIna. 53065 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Dear Robert K. (Sukin, Nina, Jon, James)- You're right that MN 117 (an advanced sutta) does not give the definition of "right concentration" or any of the 8 ariya-magga factors. He left it as understood by his monks who were supposed to know the magga by heart. You know for sure, after having studied many suttas for many years, that our Greatest Teacher was very precise and consistent. He was very careful in choosing words to convey the deepest meaning and consistently repeated them over and over again. There has been no ambiguity (even when the translator was less than satisfactory) in any sutta with respect to the main Dhamma like the Four Noble Truths, the Satipatthana, the Magga, ... . That's why we need to look at another sutta for the definition of the Magga factors and carry that definition faithfully to all other suttas. I would like to suggest SN XLV.8, Magga-vibhanga Sutta : An Analysis of the Path, and DN 22. Compare them and you will see my point. The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view. ... ... ... "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." [SN XLV.8] Tep: I hope you agree with me. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > (snipped) > ___________ > Dear Tep, > I wasn't clear, I meant this sutta: > > Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m-(117) The Longer discourse on > the > > forty > > --------------------------------------- > > Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means > > and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, > > right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right > > mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with > > these seven factors is called noble right concentration together > > with the means and the accessories. > > 53066 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 9:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada icarofranca Respectfully butting in, Larry... >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks for this additional info from Ven. Narada. One thought that > occurred is that possibly "pada" (singular) is meant, as "verse", >to > indicate the singular, stand alone nature of each verse. > > As for "dhamma", I usually don't like to translate "dhamma" >as "truth" > or some such. It seems to me that, unless specifically qualified, > "dhamma" is very general, meaning something like "particular". So > "dhammapada" is a verse that stands alone about a particular >subject. > > The closest I can come to a word match for this interpretation of > "Dhammapada" is "Aphorisms". What do you think? >-------------------------------------------------------------------- "Dhamma" is a Pali (or, more precisely, Ardha-Magadhi) word that has the same root as the Sanskrit "Dharma" - even in Sanskrit this word encompasses on many interpretations...but in Present Day Hindi( that is a close derivation from Sanskrit and Pali) "Dharma" means directly "Religion". "Pada" is a Pali-Ardha Magadhi-Sanskrit word that means either "foot" as "way"(Cf. Durroseille´s Pali Grammar). It´s also the fourth and last verse on a four lines Pali Stanza. Has a particular rhythm, as a classical latin or greek aphorism... so, a good freeway translation of "Dhammapada" is "Religious Aphorisms", similar to Confutius´s Analects or Lao Tzu´s Tao Teh King. Metta []s Ícaro 53067 From: nina Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 581 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, At the time when path-knowledge (magga-~naana) arises there are all eight parts. These eight parts are constituents of NEP Noble Eightfold Path or (a.t.tha`ngiko-maggo). This Path is the only path that directly leads to nibbana. Only at that time of arising of path-knowledge all of these eight parts become full-strength. Otherwise they may not even be eight parts and instead there might be just five parts of less. This Path which is the way leading to cessation of suffering is known as the truth of the path leading to cessation of the suffering or 'dukkha-nirodha-gaamini-pa.tipadaa-ariya-saccaa' or simply 'magga sacca' or 'the truth of the path'. As you all already know these eightfold paths are 1. right view (sammaa-ditthi) 2. right thought (sammaa-sankappa) 3. right speech (sammaa-vaacaa) 4. right action (sammaa-kammanta) 5. right livelihood (sammaa-aajiiva) 6. right effort (sammaa-vaayama) 7. right mindfulness (sammaa-sati) 8. right concentration (sammaa-samaadhi) These eight paths are frequently explained in Dhamma Thread posts. Example posts are posts on satipatthaana which is 4 dhamma in 37 factors of enlightenment or Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53069 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 1 mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina" To: Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 1 > While one is listening to the Dhamma at > this moment, there is kusala of the degree of mental development, bhåvanå, > but it is not yet of the degree that satipaììhåna can arise. So bhåvanå, though kusala, is not paìipatti? If so then is satipaììhåna the only sammåpaìipatti? If not, what other bhåvanå is sammåpaìipatti? Thanks in Advance, mike p.s. I'll be away from my computer for several days, no hurry for a reply. 53070 From: Vijita Teoh Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 8:32am Subject: Samatha & Vipassana vijitateoh Hi all, I read with enthusiast about "Samatha better than Vipassana". Buddhism is a practical religion in nature. We have to practice to experience certain facts in the teachings of the Buddha. In some cases, high panna needed to understand a situation. As I see, both techniques are equally important. We may admitt to use Samatha method but we may be actually practising Vipassana. In the case of mindfullness of the breathing, it is actually vipassana since we note a motion (air)/sensation. Until we reach a certain stage of mindfullness, we start our Samatha method, Anapanasati. However, I do sincerely encourage everyone to meditate & make their Dhamma knowledge practical. Sadhu. --------------------------------- 53071 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Hi Icaro, Thanks for the info below. However, I disagree. I don't think "religeous" is a good trans. of "dhamma". It's too modern. But I can see the similarity to the Tao Teh King. I can't think of a good trans. for "dhamma" as the Buddha uses it. Larry ------------------- Icaro: ""Dhamma" is a Pali (or, more precisely, Ardha-Magadhi) word that has the same root as the Sanskrit "Dharma" - even in Sanskrit this word encompasses on many interpretations...but in Present Day Hindi( that is a close derivation from Sanskrit and Pali) "Dharma" means directly "Religion". "Pada" is a Pali-Ardha Magadhi-Sanskrit word that means either "foot" as "way"(Cf. Durroseille´s Pali Grammar). It´s also the fourth and last verse on a four lines Pali Stanza. Has a particular rhythm, as a classical latin or greek aphorism... so, a good freeway translation of "Dhammapada" is "Religious Aphorisms", similar to Confutius´s Analects or Lao Tzu´s Tao Teh King." 53072 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Contentment is the best Treasure! buddhistmedi... Venerable Samahita - It is also beneficial for householders to be contented with whatever they have got, because overextending beyond our means usually brings us troubles. But how may this householder train himself in order to see "the drawbacks & dangers" such that he may "realize the escape" from his belongings (without having to become a monk first)? Or, do you think maybe a middle-way solution is good enough for householders? By the way, how did Anathapindika handle his wealths? Respectfully, Tep ====== > > There is the case where a Bhikkhu is content with whatever old robe at >all, with whatever old almsfood at all , with whatever old hut at all. He >speaks in praise of being content with any old requisite at all. He does >not, for the sake of any requisite, do anything unsuitable or inappropriate. When not getting any requisites, he is not troubled. When getting requisites, he uses it unattached to it, not obsessed, blameless, seeing the drawbacks & dangers, he realizes the escape from them. ... > 53073 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Vijita - May I ask you a few questions? >Vijita : >We may admitt to use Samatha method but we may be actually >practising Vipassana. Tep: Could you explain that by means of an example? ............................. >Vijita : > In the case of mindfullness of the breathing, it is actually vipassana >since we note a motion (air)/sensation. Until we reach a certain > stage of mindfullness, we start our Samatha method, Anapanasati. > Tep: Do you mean to say that the first tetrad of the Anapanasati is vipassana first, then sammatha? Could you please elaborate it a little more? Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vijita Teoh wrote: > > Hi all, > > I read with enthusiast about "Samatha better than Vipassana". Buddhism is a practical religion in nature. We have to practice to experience certain facts in the teachings of the Buddha. In some cases, high panna needed to understand a situation. As I see, both techniques are equally important. >(snipped) 53074 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hey, Larry. (Nice to see you again, Icaro!) part of Illustrator II, 8 talking about the phrasing of "I undertake the training precept of abstinence" (Verama.nii-sikkhaapada'm samaadiyaami): <...It ought to be trained in (sikkhitabba), thus it is a training (sikkhaa); one proceeds (pajjate) by that, thus it is a state (pada); and sikkhaaya pada'm = sikkhaapada'm (resolution of compound); the meaning is that it is the means by which to arrive at training; or else what is meant is that it [that is, the pada] is the root, the support, the foundation [for the sikkhaa]. The abstention itself is the training-precept (training-foundation), thus it is a training-precept [in the first form' as verama.niisikkhaapada'm, or according to the second method, as virama.niisikkhaapada'm. ...> I still like the 'footing' connotations for 'pada' in 'dhammapada'. but Aphorisms? Yuck! :) It works; I just don't like the sound. peace, connie 53075 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Connie: "but Aphorisms? Yuck! :) It works; I just don't like the sound." Hi Connie, I agree. If pada is way, means, foundation, footing, what does dhamma mean? Maybe law? Way of the law? Foundation of the doctrine? Footing of righteousness? Larry 53076 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 10:36pm Subject: Things that can be Clung to ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Craving causes all Clinging causes Binding causes all Suffering! Bhikkhus, I will teach you the things that can be clung to, that bind & their chain! Listen to that and pay attention: What, bhikkhus, are these phenomena, that can be clung to, that bind, and what is the very chain of this addictive slavery ??? The eye, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust, longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... The ear, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... The nose, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... The tongue, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... The body, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... The mind, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to, that binds, while the desire, lust longing, urge, yearning for & wanting it, the clinging to it, is the very chain there... Only by directly knowing these 6 senses as they are, only by fully understanding these 6 sources, only be developing disgust towards these bases, only by leaving all behind these 6 foundations of noise, is one capable of eliminating Suffering... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 89-90 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Glinging & Binding: 109-110. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 53077 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? matheesha333 Hi Tep, T: Have you seen AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta ?...(snip) Here we see 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', > and 'concentration'. I believe they respectively correspond to > somanassa, piti, passaddhi, sukha, and samadhi. According to this > sutta, are they supposed to be the jhana factors or are they (except > somanassa and sukha) enlightenment factors? I dont think these are jhana factors, as there is no mention of jhana. Qualities of the mind arise without classification! The Buddha is just describing a string of causation here. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Matheesha (Attn. Nina, Jon, Phil, Steve, Howard, Htoo, ..) - > > Have you seen AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta ? Let me ask you one question > to verify my understanding of the jhana factors. > > The sutta goes as follows: > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. > Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to > him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed > One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?" > "Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, > and freedom from remorse as their reward." > "And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its > reward?" > "Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." > "And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" > "Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." > "And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" > "Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." > "And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" > "Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." > "And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" > "Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its > reward." > "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are > as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its > reward." [end quote] > > Tep: Here we see 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', > and 'concentration'. I believe they respectively correspond to > somanassa, piti, passaddhi, sukha, and samadhi. According to this > sutta, are they supposed to be the jhana factors or are they (except > somanassa and sukha) enlightenment factors? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > =========== > 53079 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 1:03am Subject: News about Srinigar, Kashmir christine_fo... Hello all, Those who were in Srinigar, Kashmir in late October will be saddened to read this: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200512/s1523195.htm metta and karuna, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 53080 From: nina Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 1:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 203 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 203. Intro: In the foregoing sections feeling has been classified as gross or subtle according to four aspects: according to the jaati or class of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya; according to characteristic, sabhaava; according to person, which actually means according to plane of citta; according to mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Since these are different aspects one should not mix up these four aspects. -------------- Text Vis.:203. Herein, one should beware of mixing up [the classifications] according to kind (jaati) and so on. For although feeling associated with unprofitable resultant body-consciousness is subtle according to kind because it is indeterminate, it is nevertheless gross according to individual essence, and so on. ------- N: Painful feeling accompanying bodyconsciousness is vipaaka, and compared to feeling accompanying akusala citta and kusala citta it is subtle. The Tiika explains that this is because of being indeterminate, avyaakata, thus, neither kusala nor akusala. It is merely vipaaka. As we have seen in Vis. 199:<... feeling that is vipaaka is without engagement and without effort, it is not accompanying cittas that are cause, namely, kusala citta or akusala citta. It is without engagement as to kamma through body etc. and without effort. It does not produce result. > As to sabhaava, characteristic, painful feeling is gross. Here it is viewed under its aspect of being disagreeable, not peaceful, causing disturbance and being overwhelming. --------- Text Vis.: And this is said: 'Indeterminate feeling is subtle, painful feeling is gross. ------ N: The Tiika explains that feeling seen under the aspect of jaati may be subtle, but it is gross seen under the aspect of sabhaava, or of person (that is, plane of citta) or as mundane. -------- Text Vis.: The feeling in one with an attainment is subtle, that in one with no attainment is gross. -------- N: Here feeling is viewed under the aspect of planes of citta. As we have seen, feeling accompanying jhaanacitta is subtle compared to feeling accompanying citta of the sense-sphere. ---------- Text Vis.: Feeling free from cankers is subtle, feeling accompanied by cankers is gross' (Vbh. 3). ---------- N: Feeling that is lokuttara is subtle compared to feeling that is mundane, lokiya. --------- Text Vis.: And like painful feeling, so also pleasant, etc., is gross according to kind and subtle according to individual essence. --------- N: Pleasant feeling accompanying kusala citta or akusala citta is gross according to the jaati, compared to feeling that accompanies vipaakacitta, because it is with engagement and effort, it is accompanying cittas that are cause, namely, kusala citta or akusala citta. It is with engagement as to kamma through body etc. As to characteristic, pleasant feeling is subtle according to sabhaava, characteristic, compared to painful feeling, because it satisfying, peaceful, superior and agreeable. The Tiika explains that pleasant feeling accompanying kusala jhaanacitta is gross with regard to jaati, but with regard to a person with an attainment it is subtle. It is gross with regard to jaati, compared to happy feeling that is indeterminate (vipaaka or kiriya), because it is with engagement and effort. It is subtle when viewed under the aspect of the plane of citta that is ruupaavacara or aruupaavacara, compared to happy feeling of the sense sphere. ------- Conclusion: The Visuddhimagga gives us many details about the different aspects of coarse and subtle feelings. Bodily painful feeling can be overwhelming and distressing as to characteristic, but we are reminded that it is only vipaaka, the result of kamma. Thus, according to characteristic it is gross, but according to the jaati it is subtle, namely, without engagement and without effort, it is not accompanying cittas that are cause. Nobody can avoid vipaaka, it is conditioned by kamma. All these different feelings arise because of their appropriate conditions and nobody can cause the arising of subtle feelings or gross feelings. What is said of feelings being gross or subtle is also to be applied to the other naamakkhandhas: citta, and the other accompanying cetasikas. They are all naama: they experience an object. ***** Nina. 53081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana nilovg Hi smallchap (and Tep), op 30-11-2005 02:39 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: > > S: Yes. I mean mundane samadhi leading to mundane jhanas. ------ N: First an aside, also for others. There was some discussion about this subject. Mundane jhaana is not lokuttara jhaana. Someone who has developed vipassana and jhaana can attain enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhaanafactors of the different stages of jhaana. These are called lokuttara jhaanacittas. Those who have not developed jhana, when they attain enlightenment, have lokuttara cittas accompanied by samaadhi that has the strength of jhaana. Ven. Bodhi said that those who attain the state of sotaapanna or sakadaagaami can do so without having developed jhaana, but he thinks that for the stages of anaagaami and arahat the development of jhaana is necessary. That is his opinion. > -------- >> N: I think there is no should or should not, because whatever >> one is inclined to do is conditioned already by one's accumulated >> tendencies. > -------- > > S: Then really there is no danger in engaging in mundane jhanas. > Future accumulation is conditioned by the present moment. If one > aspires to be an arahat with jhanic skills (with supernormal power), > he must start learning the skills now if he does not already possess > the skills. ------ N: Arahatship is not near, it would be better not to think of the highest goal. Is this thinking with desire, lobha? This is a question one should ask oneself. > -------- >> N: ... if paññaa does not arise while >> paying attention to earth, there is akusala citta that desires to >> think of earth or to focus on earth. Thus, mere concentration or >> focussing on one point is not a guarantee for kusala citta. Jhaana >> developed in the right way is a level of kusala that is higher than >> kusala of the sensesphere like daana. > -------- > S: In the ultimate sense, any desire is akusala. Even an intentional > breath results in dukkha. But here I speak of using mundane jhana as > a base for developing paññaa. From a puthujjana's perspective, > mundane jhana is still mundane kusala citta, a base for cultivating > wisdom. Until one attains higher vipassana nana, it is impossible to > discern jhana with understanding. ------- N: Mundane jhana can only be a base or proximate cause for understanding if one has acquired great skill and has the masteries of jhanas (recently mentioned by Mattheesha). Then, emerging from jhana one can be aware and understand the jhanafactors and all dhammas that appear as non-self. For him all stages of insight have to be developed, from the first stage on. --------- S: In one of my recent post I said: "It is like asking why you need to > be a monk?" As you know, to be a monk one must have "intention", > then follows sets of "rite and ritual", first be a novice, and > finally a fully ordained bhikkhu. Would you say also that that > desire is akusala? > -------- N: The English word desire can stand for chanda, wish-to-do which may be kusala or akusala. It can also stand for lobha and then it is akusala. As Htoo said, we need the Pali to avoid confusion. Thus, it is hard to tell whether there is kusala chanda or lobha. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate very rapidly. One may have the pure intention to become a monk, but since one is human, also cittas with lobha are bound to arise. Whatever we do or don't do in life, the cittas arise because of many different condiitons, also stemming from the past, such as accumulated wholesome and unwholesome inclinations. ------- >>> S: If so [if one should not practise conventional concentration], >>> how do we reconcile this with what Ven. Ananda said in Yuganaddha > Sutta... > > S: I think samatha can be developed in degree. However, it will be > more difficult for one who have attained higher vipassana nana, in > the sense that his mind is more inclined towards observing anicca, > dukkha or anatta. ------- N: Even the arahat who has attained arahatship with dry insight may develop jhana. He has eradicated all defielements and inclines naturally to calm. I read this in a commentary. There is also in the Patisambhidamagga a treatment on Yuganaddha, in tandem, and here it pertains to lokuttara. > -------- > S: So I should say planning a trip to India is as dangerous as > engaging in mundane jhana!? ------- N: As you said, one may take jhana for enlightenment, so, that is most confusing. ------ S: For a puthujjana, "a moment of right awareness and understanding of what appear now" seems non-existent, except for those who have attained higher vipassana knowledge. It could be just > recollection of past moments, memories, living in the past, which can > result in more dukkha. This is even more dangerous then engaging in > mundane jhanas but I am sure you will disagree. ------ N: If there could not be a beginning of sati sampajañña now how could it ever develop? How could a puthujjana ever become an ariyan? We should discuss more what this means: a beginning of sati sampajañña now. Beginning to see that the Buddha taught about all dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doorways, sutta after sutta. What is dukkha? The eye, visible object, seeing is dukkha and so for all dhammas as they appear now. But before realizing dhammas as dukkha paññaa has to know nama as nama and rupa as rupa. The first step. Nina. 53082 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 11:32pm Subject: Content Giving! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Tep Sastri wrote: >By the way, how did Anathapindika handle his wealths? He enjoyed the contentment inherent in giving them away! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 53083 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 2:36am Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) philofillet Hi Azita > I do think there is something about exercise or endorphins > or > > fresh air or something that helps understanding to arise. > > > azita: I don't think its helpful to think like this bec. then there > is the possibility that you will attempt to 'create' the right > conditions and u know where that leads..... Good reminder, thanks. We always want more understanding, and the lobha takes over and we end up with nothing more lobha and moha. > however, I'm sure i've read/heard somewhere that a hindrance to > development of panna is a state of dis-ease, but please don't ask me > where it comes from. I guess theoretically panna can illuminate any reality, including unpleasant physical feeling, but we know what usually happens - there is dosa, and as the Buddha says, the worldling (non-ariyan i.e us) knows no way out but by seeking pleasant feeling. So instead of understanding, there is - again and again and again and again millions of times in a day, though we think it's far fewer - the kneejerk lunging away from pain/dis-ease towards pleasure/ease. This is the sort of thing that the Buddha gets at when he says that the world is burning through the sense bases, burning with ignorance, greed and aversion. Very humbling, such suttas! (I'm think of a dozen or so in the salayatana samyutta, SN 35) They do not describe what the Buddha says that we should do or shouldn't do. They do not describe what the Buddha says that we should avoid. They reveal the Buddha's insight into the nature of mind, into what goes on all the time, whether we like it or not, until enlightenment. They describe the way we are (constantly proliferating akusala) and the way the noble ariyans are (very, very far from us.) Fortunately the kusala cittas you put in your sign-off can come into play. Moments of patience, courage and good cheer can arise amoung the proliferating akusala, and condition further moments of kusala. Moments of right understanding can arise. Eventually, the namarupapariccheda-nana can arise, and the can be the clear distinction of nama from rupa instead of just thinking about it with a mind full of sublimely hungry me. I must say I feel pretty happy that I have come to understand the importance and subtley of two of A. Sujin's oft-repeated lines, which I failed to appreciate the first thousand or so times I heard them! - "is there seeing now?" and "nama must be known from rupa." Just a little ramble there, Azita. Phil 53084 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 2:42am Subject: Three levels of panna? philofillet Hi Nina or anyone Today I was listening to a talk in which A. Sujin talks about three levels of panna, the first of hearing, the second of awareness, the third of realization, I think. Could you kindly tell me the Pali for these so I can google them a bit? I think there was a thread about them about six months ago but sorry, I've forgotten. Thanks in advance. Phil 53085 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: The All: //now as we speak?// antony272b2 Dear Howard, Ken, Sarah and Group, I think I am stuck with the word "All". Maybe I think of an "All" as paralyzing. I notice in the translation the word "simply" is used rather than "only". Maybe I assume that I already have understood the eye and forms etc. (as obvious and limited rather than subtle and mysterious) and am looking for something more profound like a huge network of friends. And I'm thinking the All is not a mathematical concept but a living participatory reality in which concepts like the suffering in Pakistan are used when it is purposeful to do so. I understand that it is beyond the scope of this list. Any feedback appreciated. Thanks / Antony. PS How does this quote from the Life of Maha-Moggallana fit in?: "The world of so-called matter as perceived through our five senses -- which to-day's physicists conceive as a manifestation of energy -- is only a small section of that much wider reality which consists of other vibrational forms of energy." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html From: "Antony Woods" Date: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:56 pm Subject: The All: //now as we speak?// antony272b2 Message #51579 > > Dear Howard, Sarah and Group, > > I have a question related to "The All" in the Sabba Sutta (I did look > up the Useful Posts): > The Blessed One said, > "What is the All? > Simply the eye & forms, > ear & sounds, > nose & aromas, > tongue & flavors, > body & tactile sensations, > intellect & ideas. > This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating > this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly > might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, > and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond > range." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-023.html > ++++++++ > Antony: This All seems quite limited (e.g. the word "range"). Surely > reality is bigger than this? It seems logical that things, mostly > suffering, are happening in the world //as we speak// even if we are > not sensing or thinking about them. Turning the TV news off and on > (and off and on) doesn't affect the suffering in Pakistan. Or am I > caught up in papanca? > Thanks / Antony. > 53086 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: Internal Rupa htootintnaing Dear Steve, Nina's answer would be better. But here I would like to answer your questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: Hi All, Another topic that came on during the recent Cooran gathering was internal/external rupas. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Let me put Paa.li here for my own reason. They are ajjhattika and bahiddhika ruupa. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Steve: My understanding based on passages such as this from the Dhatu-Vibhanga Sutta was that any rupa considered to be within `oneself' was internal. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We talk individuality. But there is no self. I think the main point reside here. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: `What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But this is not to be connected with internal and external ruupa, at least I think. Because there is NO SELF. So there is no one's self. Nor do hair, hairs, nails, teeth etc as ultimate realities. Be careful that I am not denying the existences of individuals, hair, nails, teeth etc. But hair, hairs, nails etc are not paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities. Examples; bones. You will see bones if you look at them. But what you actually see are ruupa (vanna) that is white colour with shape and form. What the sutta explain is that these 20 ko.t.thaasa or 20 parts of 32 body parts have internal patthavi quality. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: According to the Vis. and other Commentaries `internal rupas' seem to be limited to the 5 pasaada rupas. This would exclude a lot of rupas which seem to be `within oneself', including the Heart-base. Does this sound correct? Thanks Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When aayatanas or sense-bases are examined there are 12 aayatanas. 6 internal and 6 external. You already know this 6 pairs of internal and external. Surely, the first 5 pairs are all ruupa. 1. eye, sight 2. ear, sound 3. nose, smell 4. tongue, taste 5. body, touches (hardness, fluidity, pressure) Obviously these are ruupas. The firsts are internal and the seconds are external. Even though your hand or thigh is internal for you or in your thought when you touch them what you experience will be pathavii(hardness), which is external ruupa and not internal ruupa. You mentioned that many ruupa inside the body will be left such as hadaya ruupa. Let us see 6th pair. 6. mind, mind-object (mana-aayatana) , (dhammaa-aayatana) Manaayatana are 89 consciousness. Dhammaayatana are 1. 16 sukhuma ruupa or 16 subtle materials, which include hadaya ruupa, water element, maleness, femaleness, nutriment, etc etc. 2. 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors 3. nibbana (absolute peace) With Metta, Htoo Naing 53087 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 4:16am Subject: Reminder: Use Links for long passages dsgmods Dear Friends, Please remember to give links where possible rather than quoting large slabs of material. If the article or quote is more than a page or two and a link is not available, select a passage from it, preferably with your own comments added. The Guidelines can be found in the 'files' section of DSG for those who need to take a 'refresher' look! Jon & Sarah p.s Any comments or queeries on Moderator reminders should be off-list only. ============= 53088 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes. Sumeru Strong jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >I am sorry that some of my questions might have been confusing to you >because of my own misunderstanding. For example, I asked: > > > >>>T: Further, how advanced would that "kind of knowledge" be, before >>>it may lead you "to contemplate a form of practice designed to >>>engender kusala so that awareness/insight would have a better >>>chance of arising"? Why do you believe that would be a mistake? >>> > > >Tep: I think my error is in assuming that you would like to see kusala >cittas arising most (or all) of the time. Yet, you were clever enough to >give an answer that was pretty good in terms of logic, although it may >not be practical. { :>)) > This question of the level and frequency of kusala is a very important matter. I think we would all like to see kusala cittas arising most or all of the time. But is that a realistic expectation? Was it held out by the Buddha as being likely to ensue? As Howard is fond of saying, we start from where we are, and to me that means as ordinary people with a lot of tendencies for aksuala. >>Jon: If we have not heard about the possibility of multiple moments of >>kusala and akusala citta interspersed with each other, we may think or >>assume that the only way for awareness/insight to arise would be to >>have kusala first, meaning that we should do something to calm the >>mind so as to increase the chance of having awareness/insight. This I >>believe would be a kind of wrong practice. This is the 'mistake' I was >>referring to. >> > >Tep: Yes, I clearly understand your philosophy, that's why you have >rejected any "act" or "attempt" to "control" the outcomes. > It is not so much my philosophy, as my understanding of what the Buddha taught about the development of all kusala qualities including insight. >>Jon: As I see it, hope for immediate results is a problem; no such >>hope is not a problem -;)). >> > >Tep: I am now ready to be educated how to practice the Eightfold Path >with the mind like yours that has no hope for right results, or no concern >about anything, and still is able to make all the eight factors "right" >(samma). > Whoa, Tep. I was just repeating what I understand the teachings to say, namely, that any growth in insight can only be known after a long period of time (the adze-handle simile). I was not suggesting that I was without hope for results etc. >Without a concern, how would you evaluate (or "review" progress) >whether or not you have truly entered the Path (Stream), not just >because you are dreaming or hallucinating that you have become a >Stream-enterer? > I can assure you that I have no illusions about having any attainments. As regards any 'indicators' of growth of understanding, this is an interesting area to discuss. What are your own thoughts on this? Jon 53089 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 6:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 582 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The fourth truth of Ariyas or the 4th truth that is seen or developed by Ariyaa is magga-saccaa or the truth of path. This Path directly leads to nibbana. Before one actually reaches the Path he or she has to follow the approaching path to NEP. There are eight 'right paths'. Supramundane right path or lokuttaraa-sammaa-magga`ngas arise at the time only when path-knowledge arises and then fruition-knowledge arise. Otherwise path-factors or magga`ngas are not as perfect as supramundane path factors. In that case they may well be mundane path factors even though they are all right path-factors or sammaa-magga`ngas. Supramundane consciousness are consciousness that are path- consciousness and that are fruition-consciousness, which are the direct results of path-consciousness. As long as path-factors do not arise along with path-consciousness or fruition-consciousness they are not supramundane path-factors or lokuttaraa sammaa-magga`ngas. Examples are here. One may stay in 1st ruupa jhaana. But if this is not with path-consciousness or not with fruition-consciousness then this 1st ruupa jhaana is truely mundane jhaana or lokiya-jhaana and not lokuttaraa jhaana. Because the jhaana practioner does not see nibbana and he or she will see only the object of jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53090 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha (and all) - I am glad to read your reply related to AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta. Note that your answer may contradict to your belief that jhana is necessary for enlightenment. Correct me, please, if I was mistaken. > > Tep: > >Here we see 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', >> and 'concentration'. I believe they respectively correspond to >> somanassa, piti, passaddhi, sukha, and samadhi. According to this sutta, are they supposed to be the jhana factors or are they (except somanassa and sukha) enlightenment factors? >> >Math: >I dont think these are jhana factors, as there is no mention of >jhana. Qualities of the mind arise without classification! >The Buddha is just describing a string of causation here. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > T: Have you seen AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta ?...(snip) > > Here we see 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', > > and 'concentration'. I believe they respectively correspond to > > somanassa, piti, passaddhi, sukha, and samadhi. According to > this > > sutta, are they supposed to be the jhana factors or are they > (except > > somanassa and sukha) enlightenment factors? > > I dont think these are jhana factors, as there is no mention of > jhana. > > Qualities of the mind arise without classification! > > The Buddha is just describing a string of causation here. > > metta > > Matheesha > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Matheesha (Attn. Nina, Jon, Phil, Steve, Howard, Htoo, ..) - > > > > Have you seen AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta ? Let me ask you one > question > > to verify my understanding of the jhana factors. > > > > The sutta goes as follows: > > (snipped) 53091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 1 nilovg Hi Mike, op 03-12-2005 22:21 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: >> While one is listening to the Dhamma at >> this moment, there is kusala of the degree of mental development, bhåvanå, >> but it is not yet of the degree that satipatthåna can arise. > M: So bhåvanå, though kusala, is not patipatti? If so then is satipatthåna the > only sammåpattpatti? If not, what other bhåvanå is sammåpattipatti? ------ N: Bhavana includes studying the Dhamma, explaining it, samatha and vipassana. These are among the ten bases of meritorious actions. Samatha and vipassana are patipatti. Nina 53092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Namarupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) nilovg Hi Joop, op 01-12-2005 11:30 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Perhaps I may join this discussion with a question about > the 'namarupapariccheda nana'. This is the first of the 16 nana's > that form the system of stages of vipassana- (insight-) meditation a > la Mahasi. > In fact I don't know which source this nana's have: the Suttas, > Buddhaghosa's work ? ------- N: In the Commentaries, but insight is also explained as three pariññas, clear comprehensions. I found clear comprehension in K.S.IV and this was further explained in the Co. ---------- J: Second question: what is the relation between nana's and jhana's ? > > I know this Sujin discussion is not about 'formal' meditation but > still there must be a relation between the terms that there are used? ------- N: Jhana is the result of the development of calm. There are two stems of jhaayati, skr: dhyaayati: to contemplate. And k.saayati: to burn. ña.na is from jaanaati to know. This is different. Nina. 53093 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Defilement instead of compassion nilovg Hi Anthony and Christine. The post about Schadenfreude. > being "blessed" > Christine explained the aspect of conceit and that is true. There is more to it. It depends on the citta at that moment whether there is kusala or akusala. Take the smile of an arahat while seeing a ghost. He is without defilements, but he can think that it is thanks to the Dhamma that he has eradicated defilements and that this is his last birth. Nina. op 26-11-2005 07:30 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" > wrote: >> I read about the following defilement in Wikipedia >> under "Schadenfreude": >> >> "Taken in a broader sense, it could apply to the feeling of >> being "blessed" because there are always people who are worse off > than >> ourselves. Instead of compassion or pity for those less fortunate, > we >> are thankful that it is they instead of us." >> >> Any Abhidhamma perspective appreciated. 53094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada nilovg Hi Larry, op 03-12-2005 08:48 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: >... As for "dhamma", I usually don't like to translate "dhamma" as "truth" > or some such. It seems to me that, unless specifically qualified, > "dhamma" is very general, meaning something like "particular". So > "dhammapada" is a verse that stands alone about a particular subject. > > The closest I can come to a word match for this interpretation of > "Dhammapada" is "Aphorisms". What do you think? ------ N: I am inclined to take Dhamma as the teachings. The Path of Dhamma seems rather close. But this is personal. Nina. 53095 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana buddhistmedi... Hi Nina and Smallchap - Thank you Nina for drawing my attention to your dialogue with Smallchap about mundane jhana. The following part of the ongoing dialogue shows that there is a failure of communication, to some extent. >> N: ... if paññaa does not arise while >> paying attention to earth, there is akusala citta that desires to >> think of earth or to focus on earth. Thus, mere concentration or >> focussing on one point is not a guarantee for kusala citta. Jhaana >> developed in the right way is a level of kusala that is higher than >> kusala of the sensesphere like daana. > -------- > S: In the ultimate sense, any desire is akusala. Even an intentional > breath results in dukkha. But here I speak of using mundane jhana as > a base for developing paññaa. From a puthujjana's perspective, > mundane jhana is still mundane kusala citta, a base for cultivating > wisdom. Until one attains higher vipassana nana, it is impossible to > discern jhana with understanding. ------- N: Mundane jhana can only be a base or proximate cause for understanding if one has acquired great skill and has the masteries of jhanas (recently mentioned by Mattheesha). Then, emerging from jhana one can be aware and understand the jhanafactors and all dhammas that appear as non-self. For him all stages of insight have to be developed, from the first stage on. --------- Tep: Smallchap is right that to understand jhanas requires a higher level kind of understanding, a full understanding(parinna). Nina's use of "understanding" as a big umbrella gives me the impression that she is talking about the full understanding of the arahant. So I have a feeling that while Smallchap was talking about the practical ideas of jhana development, Nina's concern is about full understanding and anatta. I think Nina is side-stepping Smallchap's points. :-)) Tep: Another example of Nina's "side-stepping" a question is given below: >S: In one of my recent post I said: "It is like asking why you need to > be a monk?" As you know, to be a monk one must have "intention", > then follows sets of "rite and ritual", first be a novice, and > finally a fully ordained bhikkhu. Would you say also that that > desire is akusala? > -------- N: The English word desire can stand for chanda, wish-to-do which may be kusala or akusala. It can also stand for lobha and then it is akusala. As Htoo said, we need the Pali to avoid confusion. Thus, it is hard to tell whether there is kusala chanda or lobha. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate very rapidly. One may have the pure intention to become a monk, but since one is human, also cittas with lobha are bound to arise. Whatever we do or don't do in life, the cittas arise because of many different condiitons, also stemming from the past, such as accumulated wholesome and unwholesome inclinations. ------- Tep: If there is a thought that my understanding is better (at higher level), isn't that a proof that there is a personal-identity view? Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi smallchap (and Tep), > op 30-11-2005 02:39 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > > > > S: Yes. I mean mundane samadhi leading to mundane jhanas. > ------ (snipped) > > -------- > > > > S: Then really there is no danger in engaging in mundane jhanas. > > Future accumulation is conditioned by the present moment. If one > > aspires to be an arahat with jhanic skills (with supernormal power), > > he must start learning the skills now if he does not already possess > > the skills. > ------ > N: Arahatship is not near, it would be better not to think of the highest > goal. Is this thinking with desire, lobha? This is a question one should ask oneself. > > -------- (snipped). > > -------- > > S: So I should say planning a trip to India is as dangerous as > > engaging in mundane jhana!? > ------- > N: As you said, one may take jhana for enlightenment, so, that is most > confusing. > ------ (snipped) 53096 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: Three levels of panna? buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - It is parinna (full understanding). http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/parinnaa.htm Regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina or anyone > > Today I was listening to a talk in which A. Sujin talks about three > levels of panna, the first of hearing, the second of awareness, the > third of realization, I think. Could you kindly tell me the Pali for > these so I can google them a bit? I think there was a thread about them > about six months ago but sorry, I've forgotten. > > Thanks in advance. > > Phil > 53097 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: I am inclined to take Dhamma as the teachings. The Path of Dhamma seems > rather close. > But this is personal. > Nina. > Hi Nina, That's a good one. Pada could also be "basic". Basic Teachings? 53098 From: connie Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Larry: If pada is way, means, foundation, footing, what does dhamma mean? Maybe law? Way of the law? Foundation of the doctrine? Footing of righteousness? Connie: Maybe it's just because Illustrator happens to be the book I'm reading now, but I like ~Naanamoli's 'True Idea' / 'Ideal' there... Ideal Footing. Before, I'd've gone with either foundation of doctrine or law, but either of those might seem like one half of the dhamma-vinaya is left out. Sure wouldn't want to say NORMal Footing! Illustrator I, 34: <> The entry for DHAMMA in the Illustrator's Appendix I refers us to the P.E.D. and the Path of Purification, Ch. vii note 1 and Ch. viii, n. 68. peace, connie 53099 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: Samatha & Vipassana buddhatrue Hi Vijita (and all), Welcome to DSG. I don't think I have seen you post here before. You write one thing which I very much agree with: Vijita: However, I do sincerely encourage everyone to meditate & make their Dhamma knowledge practical. James: I very much agree with this and think it gets to the heart of the matter. Theorizing about the dhamma isn't a substitute for actually practicing it. Now, some in this group, like Jon, say that we are here to discover the best way to practice the dhamma. Oh please! Those members are advanced enough in their knowledge to know the best way to practice the dhamma- they just don't want to do it. They scour through the commentaries looking for all kinds of loopholes to get out of practicing the dhamma. Consequently, I have read some members declare that they practice the dhamma while watching a good movie (Sukin) and while playing tennis or surfing (Ken H). Now, how did we move from the Nobel Eightfold Path to achieve wisdom to sensual entertainments (which the Buddha actually discouraged) to achieve wisdom? The answer: Delusion. I don't recall reading the "Good Movie Sutta", "Tennis Sutta", or "Surfing Sutta"- which Nikaya do you suppose those are found in?? ;-)) However, Vijita, you do write one thing I disagree with: Vijita: In the case of mindfullness of the breathing, it is actually vipassana since we note a motion (air)/sensation. Until we reach a certain stage of mindfullness, we start our Samatha method, Anapanasati. James: This isn't correct. Anapanasati begins with samatha and ends with vipassana, not vice-versa. From the Anapanasati Sutta: "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body,2 and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath),3 and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. "[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication (feeling & perception), and to breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication. [8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental fabrication,4 and to breathe out calming mental fabrication. "[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.5 "[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-118-tb0.html James: Of these stages, 1-12 are samatha and 13-16 are vipassana. Therefore, it is obvious that anapanasati begins with samatha and ends with vipassana. Metta, James 53100 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 9:37am Subject: Re: Dhammapada icarofranca Hi Connie! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Connie: Maybe it's just because Illustrator happens to be the >book I'm > reading now, but I like ~Naanamoli's 'True Idea' / 'Ideal' >there... Ideal > Footing. Before, I'd've gone with either foundation of doctrine >or law, > but either of those might seem like one half of the dhamma-vinaya >is left > out. Sure wouldn't want to say NORMal Footing! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- "Dhamma" as "Ideal" sounds really good! So, "Dhammapada" can be translated approximately as "Perfect Way", "Ideal way" or "Ideal footing". Again, we find ourselves with very similar ideas on Lao Tzu´s Tao Teh King - The Book of the Perfect Way, in chinese...never forgetting that translating words and ideas from an oriental language to ocidental ones ( or even between oriental languages!) is a very hard task: one can consider, for example, a word as "Samattha" - is very difficult to find some ocidental word to match it and we end with a somewhat complex idea as "Tranquility of Mind" to fit it. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > The entry for DHAMMA in the Illustrator's Appendix I refers us to >the > P.E.D. and the Path of Purification, Ch. vii note 1 and Ch. viii, >n. 68. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Checking out at Nanaamoli´s translation of VISM. vii note 1!!!! Nannamoli at VISM. vii notes quoted that there´s not a single word in English that can translate DHAMMA, because no english word has both a generalization so wide that could include a wide sense focused in a set of well-defined specific uses. Dhamma is a gerundive of the verb DHARATI (caus.DHAARETI - "To bear"), and can be literally translated as "A - quality, mind object, scriptural ability, etc - that´s to be borne"... Nanaamoli´s genius didn´t risk to offer an unique and definite translation of it, but "Ideal" seems to be very easy to understand! Metta []s Ícaro 53101 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 9:58am Subject: Re: .. Mind-door processes. Building a Castle In the Air? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (and all) - I know that you always find time to correspond with any member. Thank you many times for that. >Jon: > I think we would all like to see kusala cittas arising most or >all of the time. But is that a realistic expectation? >Was it held out by the Buddha as being likely to ensue? Tep: Indeed "we would all like to see kusala cittas arising most or all of the time". If it is not realistic, then why does Satipatthana Sutta emphisize abandoning 'abhijjha & domanassa' in every dwelling moment ? [Kaye-kayanupassi ... vedanasu vednanupassi ..citte- cittanupassi .. dhamesu dhammanupassi viharati, atapi sampajano satima, vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam.] ................ >>Jon: If we have not heard about the possibility of multiple moments of >>kusala and akusala citta interspersed with each other, we may think or assume that the only way for awareness/insight to arise would be to >>have kusala first, meaning that we should do something to calm the >>mind so as to increase the chance of having awareness/insight. This I believe would be a kind of wrong practice. This is the 'mistake' I was >>referring to. >> Tep: Doing "something" first is to develop firm precepts and virtues (Purification of Virtues), then develop mental serenity (Purification of Consciousness). With concentration(samadhi) one can expect seeing & knowing the five clinging aggregates the way they really are. "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-001.html Because of your worry about the "multiple moments of kusala and akusala citta interspersed with each other" you have missed the opportunity to practice according to the straightforward sutta advices. Tep: By the way, I respectfully warn you that by denying the importance of doing "something" to "calm the mind so as to increase the chance of having awareness/insight" and by labeling it as "a kind of wrong practice" is contradicting to the Buddha's Teachings in AN XI.1 above. Further, let the following sutta quote be a gentle reminder for you to start the practice right away, please. [AN X.71 Akankha Sutta :Wishes] The Blessed One said: "Monks, dwell consummate in virtue, consummate in terms of the Patimokkha. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in your behavior & sphere of activity. Train yourselves, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. ... ... If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings." Tep: The Buddha was talking about real steps of the Dhamma practice -- not building a castle in the air. ............ >Jon: Whoa, Tep. I was just repeating what I understand the teachings to say, namely, that any growth in insight can only be known after a long period of time (the adze-handle simile). I was not suggesting that I was without hope for results etc. Tep: I am glad to hear your righteous saying that one should have hope to begin with. Hopeless people, or people who are afraid to hope because of the fear of lobha and self, are missing the boat. ................. >>Tep: >>Without a concern, how would you evaluate (or "review" progress) >>whether or not you have truly entered the Path (Stream), not just >>because you are dreaming or hallucinating that you have become a >>Stream-enterer? >> >Jon: I can assure you that I have no illusions about having any attainments. >As regards any 'indicators' of growth of understanding, this is an >interesting area to discuss. What are your own thoughts on this? Tep: Very intelligent and useful question ! Understanding without lobha and self-view is not a castle floating in the air. If you say you can start panna that is without lobha and atta-ditthi, then it is like telling me you can build a castle in the air (i.e. day dreaming). Why? Because that understanding is near-Nibbana, not at the beginning when one's mind is infested with defilements. Understanding has several levels and therefore one must find out where s/he is standing in order to successfully progress to the next level. Fortunately for us, the Buddha gave several suttas that guided his monks through the process of panna development. The Ven. Buddhaghosa also wrote several chapters in the Visuddhimagga. So I don't think I have anything else to say. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > I can assure you that I have no illusions about having any attainments. > As regards any 'indicators' of growth of understanding, this is an > interesting area to discuss. What are your own thoughts on this? > > Jon > 53102 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 10:23am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? matheesha333 Hi Tep; T: I am glad to read your reply related to AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta. Note that > your answer may contradict to your belief that jhana is necessary for > enlightenment. Correct me, please, if I was mistaken. M: Knowledge and vision of things as they really are, were the end result of that sutta. It doesn not say whether this is of final enlightenmnet (as far as I could see from what you have quoted). It might be that of a sotapanna - or even just understanding anicca, at a lesser degree. Regardless, samadhi is required for panna. metta Matheesha 53103 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member nilovg Hi Susan, I hope your mother is already feeling better. Whatever you experience in life is conditioned, we cannot control events that happen. This reminds us that there is no self who is the owner of the phenomena of life. Life is actially one moment of experiencing colour through the eyes, sound through the ears, and the other objects through the relevant doorways. Samsara is life now with ups and downs, kusala and akusala, pleaant experiences and unpleasant experiences. We usually react with attachment, aversion and ignorance to what we experience and these are the real problems in our life. Nibbana is freedom from defilements, and this means the end of our journey through samsara. But in order to reach this goal, understanding of our life now is to be developed, very gradually. By listening, considering the Dhamma we hear, applying it. All this may seem complicated to you, but see what Phil wrote: Nina. op 03-12-2005 02:33 schreef susan op sues.greenbank@...: > As far as > I can understand from Buddhism, life is an illusion or how we perceive life > to be, and I think I have mistakenly looked at Nirvana as something to > achieve, but for some reason I am now thinking that Samsara and Nirvana must > be the same thing. 53104 From: nina Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 53105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) nilovg Hi Phil, I just talked to Lodewijk today about this, that Kh. Sujin says the same thing. I said that I am so happy about this and need to hear it again as a reminder and Lodewijk agreed. When I write about it, it is more difficult for others to appreciate. Yes, we forget seeing, think rather of persons and things we perceive. But seeing is right there. and what an amount of ignorance. Nina. op 04-12-2005 11:36 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > I must say I feel pretty happy > that I have come to understand the importance and subtley of two of > A. Sujin's oft-repeated lines, which I failed to appreciate the > first thousand or so times I heard them! - "is there seeing now?" > and "nama must be known from rupa." 53106 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three levels of panna? nilovg Hi Phil, three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ña.na, a firm understanding of what the right path is. Kicca ñaa.na, the task, awareness. Kata ñaa.na, knowledge of what has been done, the realization. Nina. op 04-12-2005 11:42 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > > Today I was listening to a talk in which A. Sujin talks about three > levels of panna, the first of hearing, the second of awareness, the > third of realization, 53107 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All: //now as we speak?// nilovg Hi Anthony, Read the sutta about the All in the K.S. IV (Text IV, 14, or XXXV, 23) : the eye and visible object, seeing, the ear, sound, hearing. etc. The Buddha this all, and there is no other all. But have we really understood them as non-self? See Phil's post about what he heard and came to appreciate after a thousand times of hearing: is there seeing now? We listen again and again and come to the conclusion that we have not understood much. Seeing is obvious, but it is also subtle, hard to understand because of our ignorance and clinging. Nina. op 04-12-2005 12:32 schreef Antony Woods op antony272b@...: > I think I am stuck with the word "All". Maybe I think of an "All" as > paralyzing. I notice in the translation the word "simply" is used > rather than "only". Maybe I assume that I already have understood the > eye and forms etc. (as obvious and limited rather than subtle and > mysterious) and am looking for something more profound like a huge > network of friends. 53108 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 0:16pm Subject: Re: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? A Contradiction buddhistmedi... Dear Matheesha - It started wth my earlier message : > > >T: I am glad to read your reply related to AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta. > Note that your answer may contradict to your belief that jhana is > >necessary for enlightenment. > >Correct me, please, if I was mistaken. > which you kindly replied: >Math: >Knowledge and vision of things as they really are, were the end > result of that sutta. It doesn not say whether this is of final > enlightenmnet (as far as I could see from what you have quoted). Tep: It was quite likely that you did not have time to read AN XI.1 from the beginning to the end. Tep: No, the end of AN XI.1 is not at "knowledge and vision of things as they really are". It ends at knowledge & vision of release, or arahatship. "Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward." "And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?" "Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." "And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" "Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." "And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" "Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." "And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" "Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." "And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" "Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward." "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." "And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually are? What is its reward?" "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward." "And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?" "Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward." "And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?" "Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. "Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. "In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship." [end of sutta] ....................................... > Math: It might be that of a sotapanna - or even just understanding anicca, at a lesser degree. Regardless, samadhi is required for panna. > Tep: I also firmly understand (not just believe) that "samadhi is required for panna". But your earlier post seems to contradict with this understanding. How? Just read your message (#53077) below. > >T: Have you seen AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta ?...(snip) > >Here we see 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', >> and 'concentration'. I believe they respectively correspond to >> somanassa, piti, passaddhi, sukha, and samadhi. According to >>this sutta, are they supposed to be the jhana factors or are they >>(except somanassa and sukha) enlightenment factors? >M: I dont think these are jhana factors, as there is no mention of jhana. Qualities of the mind arise without classification! The Buddha is just describing a string of causation here. [end of #53077] Tep: The longer sutta quote (above) shows that starting with kusala dhamma (skillful virtues), the monk has the freedom from remorse and he realizes joy, rapture, serenity, pleasure, concentration, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are, disenchantment, dispassion (viraga), knowledge & vision of release (vimutti), and thus "the consummation of arahantship". But by saying that 'joy', 'rapture', 'serenity', 'pleasure', and 'concentration' are not jhana factors, you are effectively saying that jhanas are NOT required for developing panna of the arahant. And that contradicts with your own saying above that "Regardless, samadhi is required for panna". Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep; > > T: I am glad to read your reply related to AN XI.1: Kimattha Sutta. > Note that > > your answer may contradict to your belief that jhana is necessary > for > > enlightenment. Correct me, please, if I was mistaken. > > M: Knowledge and vision of things as they really are, were the end > result of that sutta. It doesn not say whether this is of final > enlightenmnet (as far as I could see from what you have quoted). It > might be that of a sotapanna - or even just understanding anicca, at a > lesser degree. Regardless, samadhi is required for panna. > > metta > > Matheesha > 53109 From: Vijita Teoh Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:25am Subject: Samatha & Vipassana vijitateoh Hi Tepp, I believe some may feel surprised with my discovery, but by understanding both methods of meditation, many will agree with me, (I hope). Actually, your last paragraph answered your question. As a beginner in anapanasati, we learn to use our mindfulness & concentration on the "in & out" air (motion) & sometimes sensation existed. This is a subject in the vipassana method. This practise will continue until our concentration is good enough before letting go the "in & out" air. Then we only note/knowing our "in & out" breathing. NOT the air movements. This is when actual Anapanasati begin. I may not be good in explaining the whole process but I hope to have the right understanding of the Kamathana. I sincerely apologise if I cause confusion. It's my great appreciation if I could learn from all experienced members who are kind to share their view on this subject. Sadhu. 53110 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three levels of panna? matheesha333 Hi Nina, I have heard this as initial insight, changing the mind to fit that insight (growth in dhamma), and finally being 'one with the dhamma' when the process is complete. regards Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil, > three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ña.na, a firm > understanding of what the right path is. Kicca ñaa.na, the task, awareness. > Kata ñaa.na, knowledge of what has been done, the realization. > Nina. > > op 04-12-2005 11:42 schreef Phil op philco777@h...: > > > > Today I was listening to a talk in which A. Sujin talks about three > > levels of panna, the first of hearing, the second of awareness, the > > third of realization, > 53111 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 3:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana kenhowardau Hi Joop, I know you don't like using the term "formal meditation" but thanks for making an exception: ----------------- KH: > > I think the people we see claiming - on DSG and elsewhere - to be jhana practitioners and jhana teachers are talking about a type of jhana that is very different from the one found in the Theravada texts. > > Joop: > Because this statement can also be applied to (formal) vipassana-meditation, a reaction: In general I prefer this formulae: there are different interpretation possible of the teachings of the Buddha. That of Sujin and the DSG- founders are one of them; that of vipassana practioners and vipassana teachers is another, and that of jhana-practioners and jhana teachers is (partly) another. ------------------- Agreed - although it is important to acknowledge that the word "formal" is implied where you have referred to "vipassana practitioners and vipassana teachers." No one doubts that real vipassana practitioners and real vipassana teachers have the right interpretation. The doubt is as to which (if any) of the three groups you have mentioned shares their interpretation. I, of course, believe that "K Sujin and the DSG founders" scrupulously study the Buddha's teaching as it is recorded in the Pali Tipitaka and its ancient commentaries. Now, you might argue that the ancient commentaries are wrong, and many people argue that the Abhidhamma is wrong. Some even argue that the Suttanta is (partly) wrong. But, I have no interest in any of that: I am only interested in learning the Dhamma as it is found in those ancient texts. Getting back to the beginning of your post: ---------------------- KH: > > "Vipassana has only one hindrance (ignorance of the Dhamma), which can be overcome by Dhamma study. Jhana has five hindrances, and they (for example, sense delight) are virtually inescapable while living the household life. > > Joop: > Two statements with which I not agree: - Perhaps you don't mean insight-meditation also known as vipassana when saying it, but in my meditation and especially with the aim having enough concentration to be mindful, I have to do with the five hindrances that can come back now and then --------------------- I do mean insight meditation, but I mean it in the way it is described in the texts. That is, I mean a moment of consciousness in which a paramattha dhamma is directly known as it truly is (as the Buddha described it). You, on the other hand, are referring to a practice of deliberate concentration in which certain objects (I would say they are concepts rather than paramattha dhammas) are somehow seen as being impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self (in other words, as matching the Buddha's description of paramattha dhammas). Forgive me if I have got you wrong, but I think that is the general idea. The big question is; did the Buddha teach that practice? ---------------------------------- J: > - Of course hindrances are inescapable in life: for a socalled householder (a ridiculous oldfashioned term) and for the monk (perhaps daily life of monks is to much idealized) But hindrances are object with which something can be done, being mindful about the occurence of one of them in me in the first place. It's not possible to describe the meditation process in the role of hindrances in it in short, but this is how in works for me. -------------------------------- In fact, there is no need to call them hindrances, is there? They might be hindrances to jhana meditation, but they are not hindrances to what we are talking about here - vipassana meditation. Moments of attachment or ill will (for example) contain several paramattha dhammas, and any of those paramattha dhammas can be taken, immediately after, as an object of insight. So those akusala moments are no hindrance at all. The only hindrance to vipassana is 'ignorance of the Buddha's teaching.' By the way, I don't find "householder" to be a ridiculous old- fashioned term. In my part of the world it is used quite commonly. For example, letters that are mass-mailed are often addressed, "To the householder." :-) --------------------------------- KH: > > What do you think is meant by, "has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline?" (The usual wording, I think, is, "Having established himself in morality.") > > Joop: > I don't know. To me being moral is And especially but not exclusively when I start meditation I try to be as pure as possible for me. Sometimes when I know I'm not I start by doing metta-meditation (do you know this exercises?) But I'm afraid that's not an answer. > ------------------ That's OK; an answer might not be relevant here because we are talking about vipassana - not about jhana. Yes, I do know the popular metta-meditation exercises. I regard them as formal practices. They are ideas, or concepts, of what real metta- meditation might be like. Real meditation is a single moment (or world) of conditioned paramattha dhammas: it is ultimately real, whereas formal meditation is ultimately illusory. ------------------------------------------------ KH: > > In other words, it is very hard to become 'established in morality.' > > Joop: > Of course: I'm a failable human being, not a saint. But that's the reason I meditate. I get the impression you turn things and state: because I am not a saint, I cannot meditate, is that correct? > ------------------------------------------------ I was asking about the term "established in morality" as it is found in the suttas. I gather (not sure) it is used exclusively with regard to jhana meditators. Of course, vipassana meditators are highly moral people too, but it is not crucially important that they suppress akusala. So a person who is not saintly may still have insight. However, for jhana absorption, saintliness - even if it is only temporary - is definitely a requirement. ------------------------- J: > And I agree with you we should live in here and know and not bother about our future. ------------------------- Thanks, although that can mean different things to different people. I understand the Dhamma to be explaining the present reality - as distinct from telling me to do something in the future. But that does not stop me from making normal daily life plans for the future. ------------------------------------------------ J: > But you mix that with the DSG-ideology for wishing nothing, having no volition at all, to deny any 'free will'. Maybe I'm to much a westerner but I disagree with that: we should combine having little illusions about the nobleness of our wishes with the effort to do it. ------------------------------------------------ With respect, you have not really understood the ideology you claim to be disagreeing with. But you are not alone: I don't think any of DSG's critics have really understood its so-called ideology. Admittedly, it is not about "doing" but nor is it about "not doing." It is about understanding the present reality. Ken H 53112 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Re: Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Vijita - > I may not be good in explaining the whole process but I hope > to have the right understanding of the Kamathana. > I sincerely apologise if I cause confusion. > You are doing fine in explaining. I think I understand that you use the flows of in-breaths and out-breaths as the preparatory sign (parikama nimitta) of concentration. Next, you let go of the preparatory sign and attend only to contact (or touch) which the breaths make with the nose. Is that correct? Sincerely, Tep (with one 'p') ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vijita Teoh wrote: > > Hi Tepp, > > I believe some may feel surprised with my discovery, but by understanding both methods of meditation, many will agree with me, (I hope). Actually, your last paragraph answered your question. > > As a beginner in anapanasati, we learn to use our mindfulness & concentration on the "in & out" air (motion) & sometimes sensation existed. This is a subject in the vipassana method. This practise will continue until our concentration is good enough before letting go the "in & out" air. Then we only note/knowing our "in & out" breathing. NOT the air movements. This is when actual Anapanasati begin. > (snipped) 53113 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Hi Connie, What is the dhammaa (plural) of the first two stanzas, that is preceded by mind, has mind as its chief, and is mind made? Is this different from the dhamma of dhammapada? Within the verse it is characterized as dukkha or sukha that is like a wheel or shadow, respectively. Or is it speech or action that is preceded by mind, etc.? If that is the case it is speech and action that are dhammaa. Larry 53114 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) philofillet Hi Nina > I just talked to Lodewijk today about this, that Kh. Sujin says the same > thing. I said that I am so happy about this and need to hear it again as a > reminder and Lodewijk agreed. Last night I was reading in your "World in a Buddhist sense" about MN 146, in which Nandaka preached to the nuns, and the Buddha asked him to repeat exactly the same sermon. You write: "Why? Their "faculties", indriyas, were developed and hearing the same sermon again would be the right condition for them to attain the degree of enlightenment for which they were ripe." (end quote) To a far lesser degree, I can sense how understanding is ripening, and the things we hear so often without understanding suddenly click, because understanding (only intellectual in my case) has ripened in such a way that it can catch the Dhamma truth as it flows by again, "get" it. And the next time, it probably won't get it. Understanding is not a constant, it is not something that we can possess and use. It comes and goes due to conditions, occasionally it is there, usually it isn't. Understanding this conditions more patience and we won't make the mistake of over-estimating our moments of fairly deep intellectual understanding, we don't make the mistake of thinking they are namarupapariccheda-nnana or other vipassana-nnanas. (sp?) > When I write about it, it is more difficult > for others to appreciate. Again, sometimes there are conditions for understanding, usually there aren't. That's not because of Nina or Nina's writing or Nina's speaking - it's because of the accumulated understanding of the listener/reader. > Yes, we forget seeing, think rather of persons and things we perceive. But > seeing is right there. and what an amount of ignorance. So much lobha and moha. But at least we are beginning to understand how much there is and how quickly it rushes in and covers everything after every moment of seeing, hearing etc. That is the first step. We know how the world is burning with ignorance, greed and hatred through the sense bases. And there is no fireman that can come rushing in and douse the flames. Well, actually that's not quite true. There's a sutta in which the Buddha urges us to beat out the fire that is burning in the dry grass, stamp it out, extinguish it. I find that the second right effort can arise quite often, we can extinguish unwholesome trains of thought that have arisen but if course when we do the fire is still smoldering and will leap up again at the next opportunity, which won't be long in coming for us. And also stamping out the fire is a much different thing from transforming the dry grass (ie a mind soaked in the fuel of accumulated akusala) to a mind from which the fuel has been eradicated by stages, the ariyan's mind. I think some people think that it is possible to do that just by concentrating and in that case there is only more fuel for the fire, very subtle fuel but still fuel because they are longing for results for which there are not yet conditions. Phil 53115 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three levels of panna? philofillet Hi Nina, Tep and Matheesha Thanks for you feedback. > three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ña.na, a firm > understanding of what the right path is. Kicca ñaa.na, the task, awareness. > Kata ñaa.na, knowledge of what has been done, the realization. OK. Usually when A. Sujin talks about these she identifies them as the three rounds of the four noble truths, or uses the Pali, but in this case she didn't so it was a bit confusing. I am trying to remember another classification. I asked about it maybe six months ago, and you discussed a slightly differing view of it with Dan. A long Pali word, maybe starts with a "j", that means panna or understanding of the conceptual/intellectual level, as contrasted with deeper levels. I like to know these classifications and degrees of understanding because they help me to understand how low my accumulated degree of understanding is, how far there is to go. Mana, yes, but there is always mana. Phil 53116 From: "smallchap" Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 7:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Directed and Undirected Meditation. jhana smallchap Dear Nina and Tep, Tep, it is perfectly alright if Nina chose to side step my questions, if she ever did. I was just presenting my perspective to the wider audience. Nina, Thank you very much for taking time from your busy schedule to give a well thought out reply to my post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > > S: Yes. I mean mundane samadhi leading to mundane jhanas. > ------ > N: First an aside, also for others. There was some discussion about > this subject. Mundane jhaana is not lokuttara jhaana. Someone who > has developed vipassana and jhaana can attain enlightenment with > lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhaanafactors of the different > stages of jhaana. These are called lokuttara jhaanacittas. Those > who have not developed jhana, when they attain enlightenment, have > lokuttara cittas accompanied by samaadhi that has the strength of > jhaana. -------- S: After I have gone though the u.p. as recommended by Sarah, I realised that this topic has been discussed many time over before. So let this be my last post here. -------- > N: Ven. Bodhi said that those who attain the state of sotaapanna or > sakadaagaami can do so without having developed jhaana, but he > thinks that for the stages of anaagaami and arahat the development > of jhaana is necessary. That is his opinion. -------- S: You see, all puthujjanas form opinions. -------- > >> N: I think there is no should or should not, because whatever > >> one is inclined to do is conditioned already by one's accumulated tendencies. > > -------- > > > > S: Then really there is no danger in engaging in mundane jhanas. > > Future accumulation is conditioned by the present moment. If one > > aspires to be an arahat with jhanic skills (with supernormal power), he must start learning the skills now if he does not already possess the skills. > ------ > N: Arahatship is not near, it would be better not to think of the highest goal. Is this thinking with desire, lobha? This is a question one should ask oneself. > > -------- S: I would say: no thinking, just do it! -------- > >> N: ... if paññaa does not arise while paying attention to earth, > >> there is akusala citta that desires to think of earth or to > >> focus on earth. Thus, mere concentration or focussing on one > >> point is not a guarantee for kusala citta. Jhaana developed in > >> the right way is a level of kusala that is higher than kusala > >> of the sensesphere like daana. > > -------- > > > S: In the ultimate sense, any desire is akusala. Even an > > intentional breath results in dukkha. But here I speak of using > > mundane jhana as a base for developing paññaa. From a > > puthujjana's perspective, mundane jhana is still mundane kusala > > citta, a base for cultivating wisdom. Until one attains higher > > vipassana nana, it is impossible to discern jhana with > > understanding. > ------- > N: Mundane jhana can only be a base or proximate cause for > understanding if one has acquired great skill and has the masteries > of jhanas (recently mentioned by Mattheesha). (snipped) > --------- S: I don't agree, but never mind. -------- > > S: In one of my recent post I said: "It is like asking why you > > need to be a monk?" As you know, to be a monk one must > > have "intention", then follows sets of "rite and ritual", first > > be a novice, and finally a fully ordained bhikkhu. Would you say > > also that that desire is akusala? > > -------- > N: The English word desire can stand for chanda, wish-to-do which > may be kusala or akusala. It can also stand for lobha and then it > is akusala. As Htoo said, we need the Pali to avoid confusion. > Thus, it is hard to tell whether there is kusala chanda or lobha. > Kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate very rapidly. One may > have the pure intention to become a monk, but since one is human, > also cittas with lobha are bound to arise. Whatever we do or don't > do in life, the cittas arise because of many different condiitons, > also stemming from the past, such as accumulated wholesome and > unwholesome inclinations. > ------- S: A puthujjana who whishes to become a monk can't be doing it without self view. I have more to say about self view but if I do so, chances are I would enter a lengthy discussion, which I rather not. So let's leave it at that. -------- > > S: I think samatha can be developed in degree. However, it will > > be more difficult for one who have attained higher vipassana > > nana, in the sense that his mind is more inclined towards > > observing anicca, dukkha or anatta. > ------- > N: Even the arahat who has attained arahatship with dry insight may > develop jhana. He has eradicated all defielements and inclines > naturally to calm. I read this in a commentary. There is also in > the Patisambhidamagga a treatment on Yuganaddha, in tandem, and > here it pertains to lokuttara. > > -------- S: Interesting. I must go read it. Thanks for pointing it out. ------- > > S: So I should say planning a trip to India is as dangerous as > > engaging in mundane jhana!? > ------- > N: As you said, one may take jhana for enlightenment, so, that is > most confusing. > ------ S: OK. Planning a trip to India is less dangerous than engaging in mundane jhana without understanding. -------- > > S: For a puthujjana, "a moment of right awareness and > > understanding of what appear now" seems non-existent, except for > > those who have attained higher vipassana knowledge. It could be > > just recollection of past moments, memories, living in the past, > > which can result in more dukkha. This is even more dangerous then > > engaging in mundane jhanas but I am sure you will disagree. > ------ > N: If there could not be a beginning of sati sampajañña now how > could it ever develop? How could a puthujjana ever become an ariyan? > We should discuss more what this means: a beginning of sati > sampajañña now. Beginning to see that the Buddha taught about all > dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doorways, > sutta after sutta. What is dukkha? The eye, visible object, seeing > is dukkha and so for all dhammas as they appear now. > But before realizing dhammas as dukkha paññaa has to know nama as > nama and rupa as rupa. The first step. -------- S: You have discussed this with other members here before so I will just wrap it up without further comment. Nina, thank you very much for sharing the dhamma with me. I am touched by your sincerity, enthusiasm and untiring effort in answer questions here and else where. Let me conclude my posting here by sharing with you the stories of Ven Pothila and Ven Mahasiva which you probably have already read them. Ven Pothila, humbly learned from a 7-year-old arahat (who taught him to shut the 5-sense doors and leaving only the mind door open), attained arahatship in no time. Ven Mahasiva, on the other hand, due to his pride did not look for a meditation teacher, had to struggled for 30 year before attaining enlightenment. Of course, there are many ways to look at the sotries. smallchap 53117 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 9:27pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 326- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [s] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] Regret is one of the “hindrances” (nívaraùas) and as such it forms a pair with restlessness, uddhacca. The “hindrances” are akusala cetasikas which hinder the performing of kusala. When regret arises there cannot be kusala at that moment. We read in the definition of regret that it should be regarded as a state of bondage. The citta with regret is not free, it is enslaved. At such a moment there is no peacefulness, no happiness. If one has not studied the Dhamma and if one does not know about the different types of citta which arise there are less conditions for the cultivation of kusala. If kusala is not developed there are more akusala cittas and thus also more opportunities for the arising of remorse. The monk who has to observe the rules of the Vinaya may have worry with regard to his observance of these rules. He may have scruples and he may even wrongly assume that he transgresses a rule or that he observes a rule. Worry and doubt may arise because of this. We read in the Dhammasangaùi (Chapter IX, §1161): * "What is worry (kukkucca)? Consciousness of what is lawful in something that is unlawful; consciousness of what is unlawful in something that is lawful1 ; consciousness of what is immoral in something that is moral; consciousness of what is moral in something that is immoral— all this sort of worry, fidgeting, overscrupulousness, remorse of conscience, mental scarifying- this is what is called worry." * ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53118 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 326- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [s] sarahprocter... I just left out this foot-note: --- sarah abbott wrote: We read in the Dhammasangaùi (Chapter IX, §1161): > * > "What is worry (kukkucca)? > > Consciousness of what is lawful in something that is unlawful; > consciousness of what is unlawful in something that is lawful(1); ***** 1) Referring to rules pertaining to things such as kinds of food or the hour of the meal. 53119 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sources of the ALL ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, Htoo & all, --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > These 12 Sources (ãyatana) is the ALL in itself! > > 1: The eye is the source of seeing... > 2: Form is the source of the seen... > 3: The ear is the source of hearing... > 4: Sound is the source of the heard... > 5: The nose is the source of smelling... > 6: Scent is the source of the smelt... > 7: The tongue is the source of tasting... > 8: Flavour is the source of the tasted... > 9: The body is the source of touching... > 10: Tangibles are the source of the touched... > 11: The mind is the source of cognizing... > 12: Mental phenomena are the source of the cognized... > > Whether internal or external, all is rooted in one of these sources! .... S: I think that we have to be careful of the use of 'internal' and 'external' in different contexts. When the texts refer to the ayatanas, the internal and external ayatanas, the meaning is different from when the texts talk about the internal and external rupas in Steve's examples. For example, visible object is an 'external ayatana'when these 'meeting points' or 'sources' are referred to, regardless of what visible object it is. The same applies to sound, smell, taste, tangible objects. Whether it is the hardness experienced when touching one's own leg or the leg of a table, it is the external ayatana of hardness which is experienced only when there is the 'coming together' of 'touching', 'body-sense', 'tangible object' and also cetasikas souch as phassa (contact) and vedana (feeling) included in dhammayatana (another external ayatana). Mental pnenomena is a misleading translation of dhammayatana, because it includes not only cetasikas, but also subtle rupas and nibbana. Another use of 'internal' and 'external' dhammas in the texts which should not be confused either, is the use of these terms in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta, whereby the development of satipatthana is stressed regardless of whether the present citta (cosnciousness)and cetasikas are conditioned by what we conventionally refer to as our own or another's mental and physical phenomena. Please let me know if you have any further comments or if I've misunderstood any of yours. (Also, more in U.P. under 'Ayatanas' and 'Internal & External'). Metta, Sarah ======== 53120 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 4, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote: >It was > suggested that an unwholesome desire to become an arahant was OK, and > it would not lead to further unwholesomeness. > > In support of this "dangerous contention" it was said that the second > noble truth was not, "Tanha, which leads to rebirth," but > rather, "The tanha that leads to rebirth." The implication being that > some tanha does not condition rebirth (either directly or > indirectly). Is this right? .... S: As I understand, no tanha is ‘OK’, but there is ‘ordinary’ or sama lobha and ‘extraordinary’ or visama lobha. The extraordinary lobha (or tanha) at moments of akusala kamma patha can result in rebirth and other vipaka, but all lobha ‘adds bricks’ and should be known for what it is. I’ve always understood the 2nd Noble Truth to refer to the origin of suffering as being craving (of all kinds, leading to rebirth etc, ‘namely the craving for sense-pleasure, the craving for new life and craving for annihilation.” In other words, all kinds of craving (kaama-ta.nhaa bhava-ta.nhaa vibhava-ta.nhaa”. It’s a good point to consider further. ... K:>I stick to the belief that the entire teaching > is about understanding paramattha dhammas. Regardless of whatever it > discusses - walking, concentrating on breath, devas, rabbits on the > moon - the aim of the teaching is always right understanding of the > present namas and rupas. ... S: Yes. There is nothing else! .... K:> We talked about K Sujin's personal history, and we wondered if it was > only she (and her students) who understood Dhamma-practice to be free > of "formal meditation." Are we really that alone? Is it true that all > other modern-day authorities (Bhikkhu Bodhi etc.) regard the > Abhidhamma as a later addition to the original texts? .... S: You’ve had a couple of replies to this question. Christine often raises a similar question in Bangkok or India and K.Sujin usually responds by saying something like ‘if we forget the names and talk about the present realities instead, isn’t that more useful, no matter who says what?’. By chance, I started listening (and editing) a relevant question on an old tape recently which I hope we’ll soon be able to make available to everyone*. Sometimes I read comments here to suggest that K.Sujin doesn’t give direct replies.I was rather surprised to read this. Here’s an example of a direct reply: (This is the exhange between C, an American friend living in England and A.Sujin): C: Since I started reading Buddhist texts 3 years ago, I was interested in casting my net rather broadly. I didn’t feel like getting down to one thing right away. I was investigating different traditions such as Mahayana traditions and attending teachings from different Lamas. Of course, going to Thailand gave me extraordinary opportunities to hear teachings from different people. I find your teachings to be unique in what I have experienced of the Dhamma and I find much greater similarity, for example, among different other teachers of Dhamma, especially those who put emphasis on meditation practice. Even those who place emphasis on intellectual understanding, even between Theravada and Mahayana, I still find a lot of similarity in style and only slightly differences in emphasis. I find in your teaching something RADICAL and something VERY different and I find in your approach something like THIS IS THE approach and I wonder if you could make a comment about this. I mean is the state of Buddhism in such a state of decline and degeneration.... * Sujin (interrupting): ‘Certainly’ * C: ‘and that in fact there are just a multitude of wrong views...’ * Sujin: ‘Right’ * Others: shocked laugh.... ************* Metta, Sarah *Aiming to get a couple of edited sets out by Xmas or New Year for those interested. ======= 53121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three levels of panna? nilovg Hi Phil, You do not mean pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha, Sukin writes about quite often? I think you know these already. Nina. op 05-12-2005 02:15 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > I am trying to remember another classification. I asked about it > maybe six months ago, and you discussed a slightly differing view of it > with Dan. A long Pali word, maybe starts with a "j", that means panna > or understanding of the conceptual/intellectual level, as contrasted > with deeper levels. 53122 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation sarahprocter... Hi James (& Math), --- buddhatrue wrote: > So, why do I think that it is possible to go directly to arupa jhana > without going through the material jhanas? Actually, I have a lot > of reasons for believing this, but I will pull out the reason which > probably has the most clout in this group: the Visuddhimagga > explains that it is possible. ... S: I'd like to look at the Vism passages a little further with you, if you don't mind. ... > The Visuddhimagga lists 40 meditation subjects and what each subject > is capable of producing in terms of higher consciousness. The > Visuddhimagga lists the four immaterial "states" as leading to the > four immaterial "jhanas". Conversely, it lists other material > kasinas which lead to the rupa jhanas. .... S: Right, not all samatha objects can lead to arupa jhanas. (In fact not all lead to jhana). .... >Now, if the rupa jhanas > (specifically the fourth rupa jhana) were necessary to achieve the > immaterial jhanas, the Visuddhimagga would not describe these > meditation subjects in this way. The Visuddhimagga would explain > that one needs to attain the fourth rupa jhana first and that that > is the base from which to attain the immaterial jhanas. But it > doesn't do that. .... S: Are you sure? It seems to do exactly that on my reading: Vism, Ch X,1: “....One who wants firstly to develop the base consisting of boundless space sees in gross physical matter danger.....etc...he enters upon the way to dispassion for only material things....etc. So in order to surmount that he enters upon the fourth jhana in any one of the nine kasinas beginning with the earth kasina and omitting the limited-space kasina.....” (S: must be one of the ‘nine kasinas’) Vism, Ch X,5: “...Then on emerging from the now familiar fourth jhana of the fine-material sphere, he sees the danger in that jhana....etc. “When he has seen the danger in that [fine-material fourth jhana] in this way and has ended his attachment to it, he gives his attention to the base consisting of boundless space as peaceful. etc” ..... >It describes a simple process of going directly to > the immaterial jhanas. .... S: Could you give me the reference for this or quote? Metta, Sarah ======= 53123 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi James,(Tep & Joop in p.s) There were lots of points we agreed on in this thread which I'll leave aside. Skipping to the more controversial points: --- buddhatrue wrote: > > S: Again, if X occurs. No one would suggest that the bhikkhu > should, i.e > > ought to pursue such unwholesome deeds. A simple statement of > conditions. > > ... > > James: This is not just a simple statement of conditions: like when > you throw a ball into the air, it will come down to the ground. > That is a statement of the condition of gravity. The Vinaya is not > like that. The Vinaya was taught by the Buddha to influence correct > behavior. ... S: Yes, I agree and the penalties are spelt are for when that correct behavior doesn't occur .... > >S: In truth, whether or not the parent, child or bhikkhu understands > it or > > not, there is no person, no being, no control over any dhammas in > an > > ultimate sense. Merely conditioned and fleeting namas and rupas. ... > James: Now, here is where we diverge. Sarah, you are mixing up > conventional reality and ultimate reality again, and the result is a > mixed-up mess! ;-)) ... S: :-)) Ah, but I happen to believe that the truths the Buddha taught in other parts of the Tipitaka are just as true and valid even when the most conventional language is being used. For example, it's the truth that there are only namas and rupas regardless of whether we happen to be talking about seeing consciousness and visible object or whether we're talking about bhikkhus, bowls and insects. The truths the Buddha discovered are the truths, regardless of the topics being discussed then or now. .... >No where in the Vinaya does the Buddha say, "I > am giving you these instructions but I know that ultimately you are > all just nama and rupa...so just go about your business and let's > hope for the best." Such metaphysical posturings are not in keeping > with the Buddha's pragmatic approach. .... S: In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma. At the same time it stresses that 'the training in higher morality' is 'specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka', 'the training in higher thought' in the Suttapitaka and 'the training in higher wisdom' in the Abhidhammapitaka. It's not a question of going about our business and hoping for the best. It's the Middle Way of not over-exerting with an idea of self and not slacking with an idea of hoping or wishful thinking. Both are wrong views. .... > James: Yes, we must consider all three baskets of the Tipitaka-all > at once- or the meaning of the Buddha's message is lost. > Unfortunately, in this post, you have presented the Vinaya through > the looking glass of the Abhidhamma and have lost its meaning. You > are not balancing the meaning from the suttas, the Abhidhamma, and > the Vinaya- you are weighing more heavily the meaning from the > Abhidhamma. .... S: Without the understanding we gain from the Abhidhamma, we would just read the Vinaya or anything else to be about people and situations and rules, rather than about the Dhamma. ..... >I like this quote by F. Scott Fitzgerald and I think it > applies here, "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability > to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain > the ability to function." .... S: I’d rather just hold one ‘right’ idea of the truth and forget about the ‘first-rate intelligence’. Weren’t some of his intelligent characters also very ‘careless’?:-) Metta, Sarah p.s Didn’t Tep say something about a photo with your help? Joop also muttered something when you were away about not having an electronic picture but wishing to please us. Perhaps he could send you or Chris a print or get a shop to help him as I did. (#52212) =======================================. 53124 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sources of the ALL ... !!! htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your explanation. External and internal in satipatthaana sutta is based on personal body. In aayatana matter I think the same wording is used. That is external and internal. But these two are quite different as you said. Thanks for your explanation. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Ven Samahita, Htoo & all, > > --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > > > Friends: > > > > These 12 Sources (ãyatana) is the ALL in itself! > > > > 1: The eye is the source of seeing... > > 2: Form is the source of the seen... > > 3: The ear is the source of hearing... > > 4: Sound is the source of the heard... > > 5: The nose is the source of smelling... > > 6: Scent is the source of the smelt... > > 7: The tongue is the source of tasting... > > 8: Flavour is the source of the tasted... > > 9: The body is the source of touching... > > 10: Tangibles are the source of the touched... > > 11: The mind is the source of cognizing... > > 12: Mental phenomena are the source of the cognized... > > > > Whether internal or external, all is rooted in one of these sources! > .... > S: I think that we have to be careful of the use of 'internal' and > 'external' in different contexts. > > When the texts refer to the ayatanas, the internal and external ayatanas, > the meaning is different from when the texts talk about the internal and > external rupas in Steve's examples. > > For example, visible object is an 'external ayatana'when these 'meeting > points' or 'sources' are referred to, regardless of what visible object it > is. The same applies to sound, smell, taste, tangible objects. > > Whether it is the hardness experienced when touching one's own leg or the > leg of a table, it is the external ayatana of hardness which is > experienced only when there is the 'coming together' of 'touching', > 'body-sense', 'tangible object' and also cetasikas souch as phassa > (contact) and vedana (feeling) included in dhammayatana (another external > ayatana). > > Mental pnenomena is a misleading translation of dhammayatana, because it > includes not only cetasikas, but also subtle rupas and nibbana. > > Another use of 'internal' and 'external' dhammas in the texts which should > not be confused either, is the use of these terms in suttas such as the > Satipatthana Sutta, whereby the development of satipatthana is stressed > regardless of whether the present citta (cosnciousness)and cetasikas are > conditioned by what we conventionally refer to as our own or another's > mental and physical phenomena. > > Please let me know if you have any further comments or if I've > misunderstood any of yours. > > (Also, more in U.P. under 'Ayatanas' and 'Internal & External'). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > 53125 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 3:46am Subject: The Buddha, the elephant, and the monkey htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Once Bhagavaa tried to unite Kosambii monks. But Kosambii monks did not listen what The Buddha told them. At that time The Buddha left them for the whole rainy season (vassa) and stayed in solitude. There came an elephant. As Bhagavaa was full of grace the elephant became to love The Buddha and he attended The Buddha and protect The Buddha. The elephant fulfilled the duties of attendant. A monkey came near the place and saw the matter. He also became to love The Buddha and wanted to serve The Buddha. He went to the forest and searched for food. There he found a honey cake. He broke the twig and he offered the honey cake to The Buddha. He watched afar whether The Buddha ate it or not. When he checked and realized that The Buddha did not have it he reproached The Buddha and examined the honey cake. There he found bee-eggs and he removed them and re-offered the honey cake to Bhagavaa again. When Bhagavaa ate it the monkey became delighted and he swang from a branch to another and accidentally fell to the ground and pierced by a stick and died. He was immediately reborn as a deva with many devii (godessess). After 3 months Aananda came with 500 monks to see The Buddha and The Buddha saw them. When monks including The Buddha left the elephant became heart-broken and died. He was immediately reborn as a deva and he has many devii or godessess. Both were animals. But they jumped human realm and directly reborn in deva realm. Q. IS THIS POSSIBLE? A. POSSIBLE. It is possible. Because animal realm is a kaama bhuumi or sensuous realm. And deva realm is also kaama bhuumi or sensuous realm. There is no change in status of world (loka). They were in the same world. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53126 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi James, This was an earlier post of yours to me on the same thread. Just a couple of points (again leaving any where we were 'on the same page'): --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Yes, I do agree. Sorry you didn't see the original question: > How is this supposed to happen without formal meditation practice? > > > > >S: Short answer: By developing Right Understanding of the present > dhammas, > > initially by careful reading, considering, listening, reflecting > and > > questioning as we're doing here, i.e pariyatti (right theoretical > > understanding), the basis for patipatti (direct understanding) of > these > > dhammas. > > James: You're saying that jhana will arise by simply participating > in DSG??? .... S: I thought the original question was about the development of the right concentration of the eightfold path. This develops with right understanding of the eightfold path. Without any understanding of dhammas - of namas and rupas- there won't be even the first basic steps as I see it. .... >S: there's no practioner, just those ever-changing > > mind-states and other namas and rupas whether we call it > meditation or > > not. .... > James: This is one of those metaphysical issues which is troublesome > to get into. Whether there is a practioner, just namas and rupas, > or ultimately "nothingness", is beside the point. The point is how > is one supposed to go about purifying the mind?? .... S: I think it's very much to the point. Without an understanding of namas and rupas, there will always be a question about 'how one is supposed to go about purifying the mind':-). In truth, one can't do anything, but the understanding which purifies the mind can grow and develop if there has been careful considering of these realties. Thanks for getting back to all my posts, James....you'll see my replies take almost as long as your absence from the list. Thanks to Amr for letting you back early and hope your new school and students are working out well. Metta, Sarah ========= 53127 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 4:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 583 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 4th truth is the truth of the path leading to cessation of the suffering. It is magga saccaa. It is the truth of Path. This path include 8 parts. They are eightfold path. The right view is one of these 8 parts. It is a path factor. It is a magganga. It is sammaa-ditthi. It is right view. In right view there are knowledge of the suffering, knowledge of the cause of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of the suffering and knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of the suffering. The Buddha said, ''Katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaa ditthi? Ya.m kho bhikkhave dukkhe ~naana.m, dukkhasamudaye ~naana.m, dukkhanirodhe ~naana.m, dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naana.m. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaaditthi.'' ''Which is right view? Monks, knowledge (~naana) of suffering (dukkha), knowledge of the cause (samudaya) of suffering, knowledge of the cessation (nirodha) the suffering, knowledge of the path leading to (gaaminiyaa) cessation of suffering. Such is right view.'' Here the main theme is dukkha. When dukkha is not known as dukkha there will not be right view. When suffering is not known as suffering there will not be right view. Wording is not important. Whether we are using Paa.li or English or French or German or Spanish or any other languages the most important thing is to see 'suffering' as 'suffering'. We cannot read 'suffering' or 'dukkha' in the text even though we may have some hints what suffering means. But suffering is seen only when we can see it. Only when suffering is seen it will be possible to see the cause of it. This is in real term only seen at 'magga khana' that is at 'the time when path-consciousness arises'. But like dukkha or suffering we can study in the text so that we might have some hints what these mean. Cessation is the work of ariyaa or saints or Noble ones. It also arises only at the time of arising of path-consciousness. But we may study in the text to get some hints what cessation of suffering means. So does the Path. If one does not see these four things there is no right view. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53128 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 4:20am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected jwromeijn Hallo KenH, all Thanks for your reactions to my remarks. Ken: "I do mean insight meditation, but I mean it in the way it is described in the texts. That is, I mean a moment of consciousness in which a paramattha dhamma is directly known as it truly is (as the Buddha described it). You, on the other hand, are referring to a practice of deliberate concentration in which certain objects (I would say they are concepts rather than paramattha dhammas) are somehow seen as being impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self (in other words, as matching the Buddha's description of paramattha dhammas)." Joop: I you don't mind I change the topic (and the thread-name) of our discussion a little bit. I think it's rather clear about what we agree and about what we disagree. Perhaps we can have a fruitfull discussion that brings our understanding a little bit further. The topic I'm thinking about now is: There are two realities: ultimate and conceptual. How to link these two realities in daily life? Said in an other way: in what language can the ultimate and the conceptual realities be combined? When I described what 'my' (formal) insight (vipassana) meditation is, I did that of course in conceptual language; in the first place because 'time' plays a role in it (and time does not exist as a ultimate realitiy). And in the second place because in 'my' meditation there are many conceptuals and a few ultimate moments. What you describe as insight meditation, is in ultimate terms; but this is exactly what happens on some moments (not continous because I'm not a saint) during my insight-meditation-PROCESS ! I'm describing a process and that's of course in conceptual language. So my question is: HOW TO LINK ULTIMATE AND CONCEPTUAL REALITIES? Of course: that must be done in the discursive language of the Suttas, but how to use that language between the system of ultimate Abhidhamma-words ànd the reality of daily life as expressed in conceptual english language? I think I have not formulated my question good enough, I hope my understanding of the question itself increases by the 'answers' of you and other DSG-participants. A short remark about our original discussion and your quote above, Ken. In his ebook 'Essentials of Insight Meditation' Ven. Sujiva describes clear that in samatha meditation the object of meditation is a concept; and in vipassana meditation (as I TRY to practice it) the objects (plural!) are ultimate realities: arising and falling away. A longer quote of this ebook I attached to my message # 52844. Metta Joop 53129 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 4:54am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected icarofranca Hi Joop! Respectfully butting in... >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > There are two realities: ultimate and conceptual. How to link these > two realities in daily life? Said in an other way: in what language > can the ultimate and the conceptual realities be combined? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Sammuit-sacca - Conceptual realities - are ideas very close to external objects. Think in a lake or pond, for example - in your mind you get an external object and your conceptual mind processes begin to flow: an object, a label attached to it with its name and thereafter notions of space - the position of the pond besides other external objects, time - the definite hour of day or night you have saw it - the purpose of it: for bathing, for composing an aesthetic conceived garden, for irrigation, etc. all these events in your mind are sammuit-sacca, conceptual realities. Paramattha-sacca - ultimate realities - are at somewhat different mind strata. You don't get anymore ideas attached over to object so closely related: it's a realm of nama and rupa realities, its Cetasikas (mind concomitants) and so on - this are the Lokiya Cittas, or mundane states of mind. The Lokuttara cittas, or supernal ones are those leading directly to Nibbana. You can consider this approach as a radical idealism, where the nama/rupa of a pond is much more vital for you than the presumed real existence of it, external to your sense-doors (I must confess that's my personal ellaboration of these ideas, grounded on my readings on Abhidhamma texts. Corrections are welcome INDEED!) >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > When I described what 'my' (formal) insight (vipassana) meditation > is, I did that of course in conceptual language; in the first place > because 'time' plays a role in it (and time does not exist as a > ultimate realitiy). And in the second place because in 'my' > meditation there are many conceptuals and a few ultimate moments. > What you describe as insight meditation, is in ultimate terms; but > this is exactly what happens on some moments (not continous because > I'm not a saint) during my insight-meditation-PROCESS ! I'm > describing a process and that's of course in conceptual language. > > So my question is: HOW TO LINK ULTIMATE AND CONCEPTUAL REALITIES? > Of course: that must be done in the discursive language of the > Suttas, but how to use that language between the system of ultimate > Abhidhamma-words ànd the reality of daily life as expressed in > conceptual english language? >-------------------------------------------------------------------- I can be wrong...but since you consider the external world as a set of nama and rupa realities you are already linking up these realities - of course in a very idealistic way! >------------------------------------------------------------------- >(...) In his ebook 'Essentials of Insight Meditation' Ven. Sujiva > describes clear that in samatha meditation the object of meditation > is a concept; and in vipassana meditation (as I TRY to practice it) > the objects (plural!) are ultimate realities: arising and falling > away. A longer quote of this ebook I attached to my message # 52844. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep you practice well! Metta, []s Ícaro 53130 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three levels of panna? jonoabb Hi Phil You might be thinking of this: **************************** With regard to the condition of [panna's] arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cintá-mayá-paññá), knowledge based on learning (suta-mayá-paññá), knowledge based on mental development (bhávaná-mayá-paññá) (D. 33). " 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning. 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration" (appaná, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV). **************************** See Nyanatiloka, 'entry for 'panna' at http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pannaa.htm Jon Phil wrote: > OK. Usually when A. Sujin talks about these she identifies them as >the three rounds of the four noble truths, or uses the Pali, but in >this case she didn't so it was a bit confusing. > > I am trying to remember another classification. I asked about it >maybe six months ago, and you discussed a slightly differing view of it >with Dan. A long Pali word, maybe starts with a "j", that means panna >or understanding of the conceptual/intellectual level, as contrasted >with deeper levels. > > I like to know these classifications and degrees of understanding >because they help me to understand how low my accumulated degree of >understanding is, how far there is to go. Mana, yes, but there is >always mana. > > Phil > > 53131 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? A Contradiction matheesha333 Hi Tep, I think i need to clarify what im saying! (you were right, I was busy!) The Buddha in this sutta speaks of just qualities of the mind and how they lead to arahathood. Lets look at one - samadhi: If someone were to think 'do I have samadhi?' if he has attained jhana, then the answer is ' i have developed samadhi'. An arahath could think in such terms. It is not necessary to mention jhana because samadhi is a mental quality in jhaana, and it is the important contribution to the buddhist path from jhana. Or to put it in another way, samadhi is the important and useful bit about jhana, which is why it serves as a basis for vipassana (not forgetting that there are other uses as well). So I dont think the above sutta needs to talk about jhana, as it is speaking in terms of metal qualities (using enlish here, not dhamma definitions). At the same time there is overlap with the factors of enlightenment, well, all 37 of them. If we get our noses out of the book classifications of them, we can see that they are all qualities of the mind which arise and pass away, and are linked causally in the mind of the practioner. So when speaking of them it is not always required that the classificatory framework is used. Hence in this sutta the Buddha describes how the chain of causality can lead from sila to arahathood. (I might add that even if it ended in a lower degree of attainment it is still valid). Hope that is more clear. metta Matheesha 53132 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 5:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) jwromeijn Dear Sarah, all Some remarks and a re-question In #53123 you state (to James but attrackted my attention): Sarah: "In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma. At the same time it stresses that 'the training in higher morality' is 'specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka', 'the training in higher thought' in the Suttapitaka and 'the training in higher wisdom' in the Abhidhammapitaka." Joop: I'm so free to disagree with this commentary: - It's not 'higher morality' but ethical and practical rules monks should keep; and monks are not higher than laypeople (is my opinion) - The way this commentary distinguishes 'higher thought' and 'higher wisdom' is bizarre and incorrect - Who counted "the 84.000 Units of the Dhamma"? Of course nobody, it's a good example of not taken parts of the Pali Canon literally but metaphorically In #53119 you explain: Sarah: "I think that we have to be careful of the use of 'internal' and 'external' in different contexts. When the texts refer to the ayatanas, the internal and external ayatanas, the meaning is different from when the texts talk about the internal and external rupas in Steve's examples. …" Joop: thanks for this information, good stuff for me to think about. Also I want to ask you to pay attention to my question "How to link ultimate and conceptual realities?" is my message #53128 A fourth point point is a question I asked you some weeks ago about the 'Foundation' of Sujin. Not to criticise it (this time) but because I think this Foundation is a good example of a LAY-MOVEMENT, Theravada in the future needs. I think (especially in Western countries) monastic life has no future and there will be primarely a lay practice. And I think most (Asian) monks don't like that evolution. My question: do you (and does Sujin) see her 'Foundation' as a lay- movement and can it be seen as a part of a bigger evolution of Theravada? Metta Joop 53133 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 6:14am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Hi Joop! > > Respectfully butting in... > Hallo Icaro, all Icaro: "Sammuit-sacca - Conceptual realities - are ideas very close to external objects." Joop: That's not the way I think. To me conceptual realities are theories, are models of the world; for example the external world, but also for example about the question 'how do my brains function?" A model of a external object is not the same as that object as such. This is not a Pali Study group but DhammaStudyGroup, but still I'm curious why you use the term 'sammuit-sacca' I did not know that term. Only 'pannatti' for concepts. With the rest of this allinea of your message I agree. That is: as far as it's about topics I have been thinking about. Lokuttara cittas, Nibbana, how to get a arahant, etc are topics I don't bother; as I said before: getting streamenterer is good enough for me and when I'm not at the end of my life, than it's also OK. Icaro: "I can be wrong...but since you consider the external world as a set of nama and rupa realities you are already linking up these realities - of course in a very idealistic way! Joop: "Wrong" is such a harsh speech but: (a) In my conceptual reality I think some theories (that is something else as realities) made by natural scientists are very useful, for example those of particle physiscs and evolutionary theory. In don't know a useful (conceptual) theory in which nama as such, ouside me, exists. And I'm glad this does not exist: that should not only be an idea of 'Atta' but even an idea of 'God' (what I understand of vedanta: Brahman-Atman) (b) As far as I understand the Teachings, the Buddha does not speak about "the external world" as such, that should have been ontology as Ven. Nyanaponika has explained: the teachings has to be understood phenomenological. About 'nama", see my point above; about 'rupa': that experienced material qualities, the Buddha was silent about the question if 'rupas' as such exists. Icaro (about my insight meditation): " Keep you practice well!" Joop: Thanks, but do you think this practice can be described pure ultimate, without using any concepts? I think a mixture is inevitable (even for the Buddha Himself) Metta Joop 53134 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 6:45am Subject: Re: Three levels of panna? philofillet Hi Jon (and Nina) Thanks, that is the one I was trying to remember. So indeed what A. Sujin was talking about was not this, but as Nina said the three rounds of the four noble truths. Phil > You might be thinking of this: > > **************************** > With regard to the condition of [panna's] arising one distinguishes 3 > kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cint·??may·??pa?·??, > knowledge based on learning (suta-may·??pa?·??, knowledge based on mental > development (bh?an·??may·??pa?·?? (D. 33). 53135 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 7:35am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected icarofranca Hi Joop! You get a point here!The Anuruda's Abhidhamma Sangaha makes such distinction: realities that aren't Paramattha ( ultimate ) are related with our konwledge of external world and its representation at a base form, like objects and our first impression of them - they aren't Pannatti for sure! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > With the rest of this allinea of your message I agree. That is: as > far as it's about topics I have been thinking about. Lokuttara > cittas, Nibbana, how to get a arahant, etc are topics I don't bother; > as I said before: getting streamenterer is good enough for me and > when I'm not at the end of my life, than it's also OK. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Vous avez de la chance! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > (b) As far as I understand the Teachings, the Buddha does not speak > about "the external world" as such, that should have been ontology as > Ven. Nyanaponika has explained: the teachings has to be understood > phenomenological. About 'nama", see my point above; about 'rupa': > that experienced material qualities, the Buddha was silent about the > question if 'rupas' as such exists. >------------------------------------------------------------------- For Buddha, the world exists only as a play between Dukkha (suffering) and phenomenological representation. Questions about its real external existence, its duration in time, its infinitude or not, and son, aren't covered by His dispensation... (Only a remark: in many Dhammasangani passages this way to put forth the teachings are well characterized - after a somewhat long chain of reasonings about what Dhammas are Kusala or Akusala, the Dhammasangani's author states that "the rest of this teaching can be found at The Dependent Origination sequence of ideas") >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Icaro (about my insight meditation): " Keep you practice well!" > Joop: Thanks, but do you think this practice can be described pure > ultimate, without using any concepts? I think a mixture is inevitable > (even for the Buddha Himself) >------------------------------------------------------------------- That's one of main difficulties in teaching and praticing Jhanas by non-sangha members. Madamme Van Gorkon states that only the "Dry Vipassana"could be reached by non-monk practicioners, due this particular hindrance. At Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa teached that the Jhanas only could be teached out at other bhikkhu by his close friend or hierarchical superior...let's see one example: at this book the first meditation method is the "Earth Kasina": the bhikkhu must begin his jhana contemplating a disk of bare clay, polished and without any trace of symbol over it, time and again, day after day, 'till the Jhana makes its effect, raising at practicioner's mind a definite symbol ( The Earth Kasina Symbol)...the practitioner then ceases the disk contemplating and begins to meditate on these symbol, reaching the second jhana and so on. As you can easily perceive, there aren't any room for mundane concepts on these Jhana pratice - only a sequence of Rupa / Cetasika insights. All the other jhanas listed on Visuddhimagga has the same basis, from material to immaterial mind objects... for non-bhikkhu interested ones, the Vipassana is a more feasible task to permorm!!!!!! Metta []s Ícaro 53136 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors or Enlightenment Factors? A Contradiction buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - I know you were busy and, therefore, I appreciate your reply very much. >Math: > > Hope that is more clear. > Yes, a little more clear. Regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I think i need to clarify what im saying! (you were right, I was > busy!) > > The Buddha in this sutta speaks of just qualities of the mind and > how they lead to arahathood. Lets look at one - samadhi: > > If someone were to think 'do I have samadhi?' if he has attained > jhana, then the answer is ' i have developed samadhi'. An arahath > could think in such terms. It is not necessary to mention jhana > because samadhi is a mental quality in jhaana, and it is the > important contribution to the buddhist path from jhana. Or to put it > in another way, samadhi is the important and useful bit about jhana, > which is why it serves as a basis for vipassana (not forgetting that > there are other uses as well). > > So I dont think the above sutta needs to talk about jhana, as it is > speaking in terms of metal qualities (using enlish here, not dhamma > definitions). > > At the same time there is overlap with the factors of enlightenment, > well, all 37 of them. If we get our noses out of the book > classifications of them, we can see that they are all qualities of > the mind which arise and pass away, and are linked causally in the > mind of the practioner. So when speaking of them it is not always > required that the classificatory framework is used. Hence in this > sutta the Buddha describes how the chain of causality can lead from > sila to arahathood. (I might add that even if it ended in a lower > degree of attainment it is still valid). (snipped) 53137 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:26am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: 2 types of DO dacostacharles High Connie, Thanks for the info. Do you think the paramitas and the concept "Buddha-nature" could be presented in a DO frame work? Why are you inclined to dismiss mahayana flavored posts? "... purely to coming unDOne, then." could be interpreted many ways; what do you mean by it? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of connieparker@... Sent: Monday, 21 November, 2005 08:50 To: dsg Subject: [dsg] RE: 2 types of DO dear Charles, -----Original Message----- Twelve Links: The Two Aspects of Interdependent Co-Arising When Conditioned by the "True Mind" and the "Deluded Mind." The Links within True Mind: Clear Understanding -- Great Aspiration -- Four Wisdoms -- Transformation body -- Result Body -- Mindfulness of contact -- Mindfulness of Feeling -- Four Immeasurable Minds -- Freedom -- Wondrous Being -- Wisdom of No-Birth -- Wisdom of No-Death -- Clear Understanding. The Links within a Deluded Mind: Ignorance -- Volition Action -- Consciousness -- Mind/Body -- 6 Sense organs & their Objects -- Contact -- Feeling -- Craving -- Grasping -- Coming to Be -- Birth -- Old age & Death -- Ignorance. I don't remember where I found this but I think it is Mahayana. I have another version based on the Forest monk tradition of Thailand. I will post it later (I have to find it first). ------ Yes, I'm sure these transformation and result bodies would be mahayana. Something I wrote another friend recently: Potential purity? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024-tb0.html (Ratha-vinita / Relay Chariots - Stages of purity) footnote: 2. Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Punna speak of this list of seven purities - purity in terms of virtue, mind, view, the overcoming of perplexity, knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path, knowledge & vision of the way, and knowledge & vision - as if it were a teaching familiar to both of them, and yet nowhere else is it mentioned as a Buddhist teaching in the discourses. The Atthaka Vagga (Sn IV), however, mentions various non-Buddhist sectarians who spoke of purity as the goal of their teaching and who variously defined that purity in terms of virtue, view, knowledge, & practice. Perhaps the seven types of purity listed in this discourse were originally non-Buddhist teachings that were adopted by the early Buddhist community and adapted to their own purpose for showing that these seven forms of purity functioned not as a goal of practice but as stages along the path to that goal. At any rate, this list of the seven purities formed the framework for Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purity), the cornerstone of his Pali commentaries, in which the seven purities cover all three parts of the threefold training in virtue, concentration, & discernment. sutta: "In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." purely to coming unDOne, then. personally, i am inclined to dismiss mahayana flavored posts. peace, connie 53138 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] my own words dacostacharles Hi connie, I care! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of connie Sent: Tuesday, 22 November, 2005 01:05 To: dsg Subject: [dsg] my own words nice to see you, Sukin, if i were to speak of my understanding, it would be too personal; i only know connism, i guess it would be called; i told charles i'm dismissive of mahayana flavoured posts and yet i write them from this plato's cave, arrogantly refusing to accept that my entire vision is more than just clouded and i really do not "see the light" at the end of my tunnel(vision); there is just that wall of ignorance sheltering us from the truth & i am blind to the whole eggshell "i" confine myself to but believe is there because "buddha said so", and of course, it makes sense to me ;). what motivates me? concern for self(-satisfaction). "i" will escape samsara. "i" aspire to ideals only: "peace". what is that? was i not, honestly, disappointed to read my hopes described as annihilist? ha! what self would readily understand the buddha instead of obstinately fighting and having to be dragged along the way? i can only accept what i can wrap my own precious, pre-conceived ideas around and these beliefs are far, far from being stretched beyond their limit. but enough of me. who cares? haha... "who meditates"? viriya, vinnana, sati... such as these, who else? what is it to "meditate"? "to understand directly, one element". foolishly, connie 53139 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: my own words dacostacharles Boy, Connie, I am starting to get scared of you ! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of connie Sent: Saturday, 26 November, 2005 01:07 To: dsg Subject: [dsg] Re: my own words Dear Htoo, Htoo: Please do not ask which Amara, :-)). Connie: LOL - my admirable, learned friend(S)! may we all be inclined to grow straight in Dhamma, abandoning crooked postures in body, speech and mind. peace, con-seated one ;) ps. jhaanikas have lost their senses. 53140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) nilovg Hi Phil, I thank you for a lovely mail. I am glad to be reminded of Nanadaka. It is quite striking that he preached exactly the same sermon. When I listen to Kh Sujin live or to tapes it is every time new what I hear. It becomes more meaningful every time and that shows that understanding is slowly growing. As Jon says, it may often be unnoticeable, but it does grow. And as you say, it is not a constant thing we possess. Some people think that we do not practise, but it is the citta that practises, nobody has to see it! The citta practises when there is listening, considering and understanding grows like the bud of a tree. You may not see it growing but after a while one knows. Nina. op 05-12-2005 02:07 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Last night I was reading in your "World in a Buddhist sense" about > MN 146, in which Nandaka preached to the nuns, and the Buddha asked > him to repeat exactly the same sermon. 53141 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 11:38am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 3. nilovg Dear friends: ***** Nina. 53142 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhatrue Hi Sarah, This must be one of your official "James Days" because of the flurry of posts to me- some of them somewhat old. I will do my best to respond. Here's the first one: Sarah: I'd like to look at the Vism passages a little further with you, if you don't mind. James: That would be easier if I had a copy of the Vism. ;-)) Sarah, I'm surprised that you want to discuss this obscure thread I had with Math about jhana. Since when have you been interested in practicing jhana?? Are you really concerned about the process of entering the arupa jhanas or are you just trying to `win points'?? (You can answer to yourself?I don't care which). Sarah: Could you give me the reference for this or quote? James: Why? Are you the "jhana police"? ;-)) Sarah, I was just making a guess based on what I have read in secondary sources about the kasinas described in the Vism. You should know by know that I don't have the Vism, haven't read the Vism, and have no desire to EVER read the Vism. So, if you are keeping score, I guess the score is Sarah: 1, James: 0. Hope that makes you happy ;-). Metta, James 53143 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 11:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Trees and Anger (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG dacostacharles Boy, I almost missed this. Hi Sarah, I think that sometimes posts get lost when a thread is split and no warning of the split is made. Now for my reply: S: It's good to see all your posts. ...I know how difficult it is for you to write during the week. C: I will be losing my job soon, so I will be spending much more time at home (a mixed blessing). I hope to use my unemployment to write a few books. -------------------------------- C: I once said, "I like that name." Still don't know why?? S: Who can ever know how lobha makes its selections... C: Yes; but is't that part of the quest, to know the nature of Mind. So hopefully, you, I, and others. -------------------------------------------------------- C: ... how can trees not exist and anger do exist? S: When you touch a tree, what is experienced? When you look out of a window, what is seen? C: when I touch a tree, thoughts are experienced (impulses as thoughts). And a lot depends on what the other senses are doing. But I think you are looking for are the labels: "rough hardness." S: No, I'm not looking for labels but to determine whether there is any 'tree' experienced other than as visible object, hardness etc and then thinking about these various experiences with ideas of a tree. C: Yes, visible object, is that real? I just call this one "tree." It is real to me because it is a visible object. That is, something the mind can experience through the eye gate (sense organ) at first. No, it is not experienced as emotion at first, but as a picture giving rise to intellect and thus emotion. ------------------------------------ S: On the other hand, when you're mad, what is experienced? C: The same goes for "mad" -- thoughts are experienced (impulses as thoughts), and a lot depends on what the other senses are doing. But I think you are looking for is the label: "anger." S: OK, when there's anger, it has its very own characteristic or nature, regardless of whether there's any thinking about it before or after and no matter what thoughts there are. This is irrespective of the label 'anger'. We could call it anything. C: The same can be said for tree. ------------------------------------ C: What makes hardness real and not tree? Is it because you consider tactile input real and not visual input? S: Both tactile input and visual input are real. But what is visual input? Isn't visual input merely visual input or visible data? When we think we see a tree or a person, aren't these concepts or thoughts about the visual input? C: But the same could be said for tactile input. ------------------------------------------ C: Wait; is your problem really with the label (e.g., "tree") and not the object itself? If so, then keep in mind that "hardness" is also a word or label used for communicating some point, or an idea we have because of what is touched and remembered. S: So forgetting about any labels, what is experienced through 'touch' like now or through 'sight' like now seems to be a computer keyboard, but really what is experienced is the sensory object through the body-sense and the visual object through the eye-sense. The rest are ideas about these sense objects surely? C: But even the term sensory object (both visual and tactical) is a label used to describe the reality at the sense gate. So yes, there are lots of ideas, some facts, some fiction, and some are both fact and fiction. C: It sounds to me like your real problem is with the labels and the mental stuff the labels trigger, not the object I am now looking at (I call it a tree). --------------------------------------------- S: All 'existence' is a 'mixture' of namas (those 'mental' qualities which can experience objects and rupas (those 'physical' qualities which can never experience objects). C: I am not sure what you mean here, but does it relate to consciousness? Or are you trying to say that sensory input is the only reality? S: There is the consciousness such as seeing experience or touching experience or thinking experience (namas) and there is the sensory input we've just discussed such as tangible object or visible object (rupas). These exist and can be known. Trees and computers are ideas and in an ultimate sense, such ideas do not exist. C: So again, it sounds like you have a problem with the label not the object. ------------------------------------------------ S: This is a very good discussion. Let's continue. C: I agree. But is this agreement real? Some Buddhists believe what ever is in the mind is real, and only what is in the mind. What is not in mind does not exist. Therefore, the agreement exists in my mind so now it is real. How do you like them apples? Thanks, Sarah PS: I have just made "thanks" real. Oh how fleeting objects can be? 53144 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Ah, but I happen to believe that the truths the Buddha taught in other parts of the Tipitaka are just as true and valid even when the most conventional language is being used. James: Well, you could have fooled me! ;-)) Sarah: For example, it's the truth that there are only namas and rupas regardless of whether we happen to be talking about seeing consciousness and visible object or whether we're talking about bhikkhus, bowls and insects. James: "There are only namas and rupas" is a metaphysical/ontological statement. The Buddha didn't teach metaphysics: He only taught the Four Noble Truths. Sarah: The truths the Buddha discovered are the truths, regardless of the topics being discussed then or now. James: The truths are the Four Noble Truths. Talk about those truths rather than questionable `metaphysical truths' and we will be on the same page. Sarah: In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma. James: I agree with Joop on this one: what a silly commentary! 84,000 Units of Dhamma???!!! Buddhaghosa was really weird when it came to his pseudo statistics. Sarah: At the same time it stresses that 'the training in higher morality' is 'specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka', 'the training in higher thought' in the Suttapitaka and 'the training in higher wisdom' in the Abhidhammapitaka. James: I disagree with this. If anything, higher thought is found in the Abhidhamma and higher wisdom is found in the suttas. The Abhidhamma is all about thought and theories, the suttas are about wisdom and it's practical application/cultivation. Sarah: Without the understanding we gain from the Abhidhamma, we would just read the Vinaya or anything else to be about people and situations and rules, rather than about the Dhamma. James: The Dhamma is also about people, situations, and rules. Sarah: I'd rather just hold one `right' idea of the truth and forget about the `first-rate intelligence'. James: It was just a quote to inspire thought, not to be taken literally. It wasn't a dhamma quote. Sarah: Weren't some of his intelligent characters also very `careless'?:-) James: Not really. The protagonist of The Great Gatsby, probably his most intelligent character, wasn't careless in the least. But he was driven by desire which lead to his downfall. Metta, James 53145 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > This was an earlier post of yours to me on the same thread. Just a couple > of points (again leaving any where we were 'on the same page'): > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > James: Yes, I do agree. Sorry you didn't see the original question: > > How is this supposed to happen without formal meditation practice? > > > > > > > >S: Short answer: By developing Right Understanding of the present > > dhammas, > > > initially by careful reading, considering, listening, reflecting > > and > > > questioning as we're doing here, i.e pariyatti (right theoretical > > > understanding), the basis for patipatti (direct understanding) of > > these > > > dhammas. > > > > James: You're saying that jhana will arise by simply participating > > in DSG??? > .... > S: I thought the original question was about the development of the right > concentration of the eightfold path. This develops with right > understanding of the eightfold path. Without any understanding of dhammas > - of namas and rupas- there won't be even the first basic steps as I see > it. James (now): What? That isn't an answer. You and Nina seem to be experts at side-stepping difficult, pertinent questions. We should call it "The DSG Shuffle"! ;-)) > .... > >S: there's no practioner, just those ever-changing > > > mind-states and other namas and rupas whether we call it > > meditation or > > > not. > .... > > James: This is one of those metaphysical issues which is troublesome > > to get into. Whether there is a practioner, just namas and rupas, > > or ultimately "nothingness", is beside the point. The point is how > > is one supposed to go about purifying the mind?? > .... > S: I think it's very much to the point. Without an understanding of namas > and rupas, there will always be a question about 'how one is supposed to > go about purifying the mind':-). In truth, one can't do anything, but the > understanding which purifies the mind can grow and develop if there has > been careful considering of these realties. James: Again, not a direct answer. Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. ;-)) > > Thanks for getting back to all my posts, James....you'll see my replies > take almost as long as your absence from the list. James: That's okay. No rush. Thanks to Amr for > letting you back early and hope your new school and students are working > out well. James: Thanks for the well-wishes. Everything is working out fine right now. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > Metta, James 53146 From: "susan" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 7:36am Subject: conditioned/unconditioned susie11uk Hi Nina, My mum is doing much better, thank you very much for asking. I do sometimes find Buddhism complicated but that might be because of the different terminology and a completely different way of looking at life than I've been taught, I also think sometimes I'm using my mind to try to understand my mind and end up foxing or deluding myself. If everything we experience in life is conditioned and we can't control events in our sensory world, does this mean then that there is an unconditioned state to be realised, and if we realise this unconditioned state we therefore have the comparison to know a truth. Would an unconditioned state be Nibanna, end of suffering end of attachments? Is my life as I live or observe it, being attached to my 'self', just a temporary existence that I try to change in an attempt to gain control of something, is this the illusion? I'm not my body. From what I think I'm understanding here is that I'm not my thoughts. I'll quit now before I talk myself in circles lol. susan 53147 From: Vijita Teoh Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 9:20am Subject: Samatha & Vipassana vijitateoh Hi Tep, James & all, Thanks Tep & James for your posting. Tep made a good elaboration - exactly what I mean. I'm lacking the skill in explaining what my mind says. James' s sutta presentation is another approach to the Dhamma. However, not everyone start from Samatha & end with Vipassana. In practical, there are many things NOT mentioned in the sutta. For example, "I attend a Dhamma class". In practical, many incidents NOT mentioned in this phrase, like, how do I go to the Dhamma class? What attire do I wear? What time did I reached the class? Who attended the class? etc, etc................& so on. The purpose of using in & out air as meditation object is to "build" concentration & mindfulness. When both concentration & mindfulness are strong, we don't use the air as meditation object anymore but the in & out breathing, according to the Sutta. Our mindfulness is not at the nose anymore but just knowing/note our breathe in & breathe out. This subject is strictly practical in nature. However, not everything mentioned in the Sutta may be experienced by all meditators. Some may not feel the lenght of their breathe. Some may not experince the kasinas, etc, etc... But they are not discovered by some meditators due to certain conditions. To elaborate further in detail will make a Sutta like the size of Visuddhimagga. There are many methods of building up mindfulness & concentration before approaching the Anapanasati Sutta. Some FOLLOW the breathing air flow in & out. Some were like physical training while focussing the movements of their limbs, etc, etc... With carefull consideration with panna, are these Anapanasati methods? As I am concerned, both Anapanasati & Vipassana being practised by all meditators no matter what method they use. I hope my explaination motivate everyone to try the practical aspect of BuddhaDhamma.EHIPASIKO. Sadhu. Vijita 53148 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 2:26pm Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Hi Joop! > > You get a point here!The Anuruda's Abhidhamma Sangaha makes such > distinction: realities that aren't Paramattha ( ultimate ) are > related with our konwledge of external world and its representation > at a base form, like objects and our first impression of them - they > aren't Pannatti for sure! > ... Hallo Icaro, all One point of reaction Icaro: "let's see one example: at this book the first meditation method is the "Earth Kasina": the bhikkhu must begin his jhana contemplating a disk of bare clay, polished and without any trace of symbol over it, time and again, day after day, 'till the Jhana makes its effect, raising at practicioner's mind a definite symbol ( The Earth Kasina Symbol)...the practitioner then ceases the disk contemplating and begins to meditate on these symbol, reaching the second jhana and so on. As you can easily perceive, there aren't any room for mundane concepts on these Jhana pratice - only a sequence of Rupa / Cetasika insights" Joop: Althoug I was not talking about jhana (but about vipassana- meditation), the problem is the same: the process of 'entering jhana' or more general: 'doing samatha meditation' can only be described in a language that has much concepts and some ultimate realities. To give a list of ultimate realities: 'Earth', 'mind', 'jhana', 'second jhana' To give a list of concepts in the above quote: 'disk', 'clay', 'polished', 'symbol'; it's really impossible to avoid them. So my question remains: what is the glue that combines this two lists? Metta Joop 53149 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 3:04pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 3. philofillet Hi Nina and all > someone else in order to rejoice in it (anumodana), and as regards > ourselves, we should look for our akusala in order to eradicate it. > > Sujin: Do we look for it or do we see it? That's a great line that will be remembered, I hope. I think we are sometimes eager to look for kusala in others and akusala in ourselves, and that is just more clinging. A moment of appreciation of others' kusala can arise (or even our own kusala, why not, it is no less conditioned than others', intellectual (thinking) awareness of it can arise. But when we make an intentional attempt to see it we are just telling stories, creating more fictions. Kusala and akusala are so momentary, we have to remember. We have no way of knowing whether the others' citta is kusala. Still, if an appreciation of it as kusala arises, great, a moment of appreciation even if it's just nice thinking. A balm. To be honest, I think 99.99% (to borrow from Dan, where is he anyways?) of what we take for metta and mudita and karuna is a balm for our our stressed-out selves rather than bhavana, but why not? Samsara is hard and we have a long way to go to reach enlightenment > It is certain that the citta will be impure when we see someone else¹s evil. > We should immediately realize that we forget to consider our own citta at > that moment. Another great line. A. Sujin rocks! (slang for "shows sublime understanding of Dhamma") > If we look into the mirror we can see our own citta at that > moment and we can find out what kind of citta thinks in that way. Well, I don't think we can do this. We can speculate about what kind of citta there was, think about it, maybe with confidence, but we can't know it for sure, "find out" for sure. But it's helpful to be told "it is certain that the citta will be impure when we see someone else's eveil. We should immediately realize that we forget to consider our own citta at that moment." Phil 53150 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 4:22pm Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected icarofranca Hi Joop!!! >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Joop: Althoug I was not talking about jhana (but about vipassana- > meditation), the problem is the same: the process of 'entering >jhana' > or more general: 'doing samatha meditation' can only be described >in > a language that has much concepts and some ultimate realities. > To give a list of ultimate > realities: 'Earth', 'mind', 'jhana', 'second jhana' > To give a list of concepts in the above > quote: 'disk', 'clay', 'polished', 'symbol'; it's really >impossible > to avoid them. > So my question remains: what is the glue that combines this two >lists? >-------------------------------------------------------------------- A very slippery question, pal! As a matter of fact, the vipassana-meditation has a definite technique, that can be explained with the recurse of words: you must seat quitely, close your eyes and follow with your mind the in-and- out of your breath...but if you look at a Buddha´s statue, you can have a glimpse of the main idea. If you neither consider the Buddha´s statue as an object or a source of mind process, you won´t need a "glue" to link concepts and ultimate realities at your meditation. Or taking the other side: reading a Sutta really paying attention on it, calm, with your breath paused... you enter in Vipassana-meditation, linking concepts and ultimate realities: many theravada writers even consider the act of reading the Abhidhamma the own true vipassana! So, how to escape from the pitfall of words and concepts ? How linking the conventional with the ultimate ? I think that´s a matter of personal viewpoint: you can consider a statue of Buddha or a Scroll with suttas as objects, you can nurture ideas about them, you can analyse the words of an instruction about meditation...you will be revolving around concepts that aren´t ultimate. But since you get the idea that all of this are only sets of nama/rupas on your citta you are already ate the realm of Paramattha-sacca - ultimate realities! Metta []s Ícaro 53151 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Vism.XIV,204 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 204. Therefore feeling's grossness and subtlety should be understood in such a way that there is no mixing up of the classifications according to kind and so on. For instance, [when it is said] 'The indeterminate according to kind is subtle compared with the profitable and the unprofitable', the individual-essence class, etc., must not be insisted upon like this: 'Which kind of indeterminate? Is it the painful? Is it the pleasant? Is it that in one with an attainment? Is it that in one with no attainment? Is it that subject to cankers? Is it that free from cankers?', and so in each instance. ************************** 204. tasmaa yathaa jaatiaadivasena sambhedo na hoti, tathaa vedanaana.m o.laarikasukhumataa veditabbaa. seyyathida.m. abyaakataa jaativasena kusalaakusalaahi sukhumaa. tattha katamaa abyaakataa? ki.m dukkhaa? ki.m sukhaa? ki.m samaapannassa? ki.m asamaapannassa? ki.m saasavaa ? ki.m anaasavaati? eva.m sabhaavaadibhedo na paraamasitabbo. esa nayo sabbattha. 53152 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 5:47pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi Larry, The phenomena (dhammaa) preceded by mind (citta) are cetasikas. Those minds (c&c) precede dhammaa that are actions thru the body, speech & mind doors... rupa (tho not all rupas; some precede mind). All these dhammaa are included in the (Buddha)dhamma of the title, as is nibbaana. Without the (Buddha)dhamma, we wouldn't be as likely to ever understand that the true nature of all phenomena is not as we ordinarly conceive and believe. peace, connie Larry: What is the dhammaa (plural) of the first two stanzas, that is preceded by mind, has mind as its chief, and is mind made? Is this different from the dhamma of dhammapada? Within the verse it is characterized as dukkha or sukha that is like a wheel or shadow, respectively. Or is it speech or action that is preceded by mind, etc.? If that is the case it is speech and action that are dhammaa. 53153 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: 2 types of DO & my own words nichiconn Hi, Charles, "purely to coming unDOne, then" was meant like a toast or "best wishes"... by the path of purification may there be an end to DOing; the reverse/pa.tiloma instead of the ongoing/forward/anuloma DO/pa.ticca samuppaada. Anything can be made to fit into the DO framework, but not by me. I tend to dismiss mahayana flavoured post because: I'm grouchy and start thinking about dojo and suggesting adding a rule to the homepage saying don't bother entering (and wasting time) if you haven't read a tremendous sampling of Nina's books on Zolag; Ashvagosha and Nagarjuna are incomprehensible to me; I used to think I could reconcile what I now see as insurmountable differences among the traditions and have lost interest; etc. Don't let me scare you! What kind of reality can I even have to you unless you're thinking of whatever ideas you have of 'me'? Thanks for caring :) but still, no you, either. peace, connie 53154 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 5:47pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Icaro! In Illustrator, Nan says he used 6 different translations for dhamma! But we need to watch our Spelling, my man ;). Samattha is 'skillful/able'. That quiet heart, samatha, is also 'settlement of legal questions'. Still, I suppose if all our questions are Ideally settled (that is, iaw the law/Dhamma), it's moot. (not that i really understand what moot means). [s] c. Ic: So, "Dhammapada" can be translated approximately as "Perfect Way", "Ideal way" or "Ideal footing". Again, we find ourselves with very similar ideas on Lao Tzu´s Tao Teh King - The Book of the Perfect Way, in chinese...never forgetting that translating words and ideas from an oriental language to ocidental ones (or even between oriental languages!) is a very hard task: one can consider, for example, a word as "Samattha" - is very difficult to find some ocidental word to match it and we end with a somewhat complex idea as "Tranquility of Mind" to fit it. 53155 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 6:02pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) gazita2002 Hello Joop and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, all > > Some remarks and a re-question ....snip... > Also I want to ask you to pay attention to my question "How to link > ultimate and conceptual realities?" is my message #53128 azita: In one sense, they cannot be linked at all bec. one is about absolute truth and the other about concepts. In another sense, they are always linked bec. what I take for me, you, them, it, etc, are in the ultimate case, just arising and ceasing [ever so quickly] mental and material phenomena, [nama/rupa]. until we understand this, even at the intellectual level - pariyatti - we'll always be confused IMO. To hear and consider again and again, just what ultimate realities are, how they are conditioned, how they are sooooo impermanent and hence very unsatisfactory, is quite an important factor to understanding the Buddha's teaching. > > > A fourth point point is a question I asked you some weeks ago about > the 'Foundation' of Sujin. > Not to criticise it (this time) but because I think this Foundation > is a good example of a LAY-MOVEMENT, Theravada in the future needs. I > think (especially in Western countries) monastic life has no future > and there will be primarely a lay practice. And I think most (Asian) > monks don't like that evolution. > My question: do you (and does Sujin) see her 'Foundation' as a lay- > movement and can it be seen as a part of a bigger evolution of > Theravada? > azita: i have visited the Foundation on many occasions. Physically, its an octagonal maybe hexagonal building set in a soi [lane] off a very busy road in the midst of other houses in suburban Bangkok. Very unimposing and very pleasant. Within, its a hive of activity where a number of very polite young Thai people work, editing etc - whatever has to be done to maintain a huge collection of talks by A.Sujin and some others who have taught there. There's also lots of dhamma books including an English version of the Tipitika, not complete bec it has not all been translated. I don't know if its specifically 'lay' as I have seen monks attend and ask questions. I have no idea if its part of a bigger evolution of Theravada, however I do kknow that I have the utmost respect for T.A. Sujin and totally appreciate her time, energy and patience that she shows to people who approach her with dhamma questions. Thro her, I believe 'my' understanding of the Dhamma is growing. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 53156 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Vijita (and James) - I think James meant the Anapanasati 1st tetrad was samatha-based in the first tetrad (kayanupassana). The kayanupassana is by itself a vipassana / satipatthana on the body (here, the "breaths"). However, the meditator attains unification and non-distraction of the mind (concentration) by means of samatha. Once the mind is steady and not distracted (i.e. the cognizance stays with the "breath body" when the mindfulness is established), then the meditator gains vipassana-nana of the kaya through the contemplation (anupassana) of the breath body. Please review the thread "Breathing Treatise" for more detail. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vijita Teoh wrote: > > Hi Tep, James & all, > > Thanks Tep & James for your posting. Tep made a good elaboration - exactly what I mean. I'm lacking the skill in explaining what my mind says. > > James' s sutta presentation is another approach to the Dhamma. However, not everyone start from Samatha & end with Vipassana. In practical, there are many things NOT mentioned in the sutta. For example, "I attend a Dhamma class". In practical, many incidents NOT mentioned in this phrase, like, how do I go to the Dhamma class? What attire do I wear? What time did I reached the class? Who attended the class? etc, etc................& so on. The purpose of using in & out air as meditation object is to "build" concentration & mindfulness. When both concentration & mindfulness are strong, we don't use the air as meditation object anymore but the in & out breathing, according to the Sutta. Our mindfulness is not at the nose anymore but just knowing/note our breathe in & breathe out. This subject is strictly practical in nature. > > However, not everything mentioned in the Sutta may be experienced by all meditators. Some may not feel the lenght of their breathe. Some may not experince the kasinas, etc, etc... But they are not discovered by some meditators due to certain conditions. To elaborate further in detail will make a Sutta like the size of Visuddhimagga. > > There are many methods of building up mindfulness & concentration before approaching the Anapanasati Sutta. Some FOLLOW the breathing air flow in & out. Some were like physical training while focussing the movements of their limbs, etc, etc... With carefull consideration with panna, are these Anapanasati methods? > > As I am concerned, both Anapanasati & Vipassana being practised by all meditators no matter what method they use. > > I hope my explaination motivate everyone to try the practical aspect of BuddhaDhamma.EHIPASIKO. > > Sadhu. > Vijita > 53157 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 6:41pm Subject: Re: 2 types of DO & my own words philofillet Hi Connie >>>> I'm grouchy and start thinking about dojo and suggesting adding a rule to the homepage saying don't bother entering (and wasting time) if you haven't read a tremendous sampling of Nina's books on Zolag; Yes, yes! This is good. There could be an entrance exam. The danger is that members who had already gotten in might pass around cheat sheets in "how to get into DSG" type forums. The test would have to be updated every week or so to avoid this but I would be very happy to offer to do that. We could also introduce something that is used at a baseball forum I belong to. Certain words such as "moron" and "imbecile" and "ass" are identified by an automatic censor and posts that contain them are automatically eliminated. If a somewhat more sophisticated censor is available, it could automatically eliminate posts contain pre-determined wrong views. That way the person who posted the wrong view would know right away that they were wrong without someone needing to post an explanation. More time and energy saved for everyone involved through the beauty of developing internet Dhamma technology. Also the photos. The more posts demonstrating right view, the brighter the photo. The photos of people with wrong view could gradually become dimmer and dimmer until they disappear. I was feeling grouchy but now I feel cheerful thinking how much fun it would be to discriminate against people who don't share my views!!! Phil who was "shoolyard bully" in a test linked to by James :) 53158 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) philofillet Hi Azita, and all > azita: In one sense, they cannot be linked at all bec. one is about > absolute truth and the other about concepts. > In another sense, they are always linked bec. what I take > for me, you, them, it, etc, are in the ultimate case, just arising > and ceasing [ever so quickly] mental and material phenomena, > [nama/rupa]. until we understand this, even at the intellectual > level - pariyatti - we'll always be confused IMO. Nicely said, Azita. Some people will laugh when we say that there are no people in ultimate terms, only nama and rupa, but we have to stick with the truth. You say that nicely in a talk, when Nina is saying that perhaps it is too soon for us to understnd "there is no Nina" etc. You say that we really have to understand that and accept that at the intellectual level before we can go any deeper. On the other hand, I think James had a good point with that F. Scott Fitzgerald quote. Being able to balance two contrasting ideas without going mad is a gift (paraphrase.) We have to work with conceptual truth, live in this world, fulfill our obligations to loved ones etc and sometimes that means compromising. I think we can cheat with brahma-viharas a bit and think thoughts of loving- kindness intentionally, which aren't actually metta (because they are rooted in our need for emotional comfort) but are soothing balms that we need to carry on down the long path. I have been doing so recently because I have had a *lot* of stress and am feeling a lot of pressure to make something happen career-wise. For example, I find thinking in the morning about how a single act of kindness can ripple through the world, through people, is a helpful balm and can condition friendly feelings later, though it is not based in parmattha truth and is not kusala, technically speaking. (Though any friendliness that arises conditioned by it later could be kusala.) Phil 53159 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Steve), Thanks for your reply: ------------- S: > As I understand, no tanha is `OK', but there is `ordinary' or sama lobha and `extraordinary' or visama lobha. The extraordinary lobha (or tanha) at moments of akusala kamma patha can result in rebirth and other vipaka, but all lobha `adds bricks' and should be known for what it is. I've always understood the 2nd Noble Truth to refer to the origin of suffering as being craving (of all kinds, leading to rebirth etc, `namely the craving for sense- pleasure, the craving for new life and craving for annihilation." In other words, all kinds of craving (kaama-ta.nhaa bhava-ta.nhaa vibhava-ta.nhaa". It's a good point to consider further. ---------------- I am happy with the explanations and references you originally gave in the Bhikkunhi sutta thread, even though the actual wording of the sutta is problematical. If Steve has any lingering doubts about "the craving that is to be pursued" then I hope he will pursue them here. Thanks also for passing on those candid comments by K Sujin. When I think about it I am not surprised that she and her students are so alone. The same could be said for each of the meditation teachers who disagree with her so strongly. It seems to me that no two of them have the same teaching. The only thing they have in common is belief in the efficacy of formal meditation. Ken H 53160 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 7:44pm Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected kenhowardau Hi Joop, Thanks for continuing the discussion: ---------------------- <. . .> Joop: > The topic I'm thinking about now is: There are two realities: ultimate and conceptual. How to link these two realities in daily life? Said in an other way: in what language can the ultimate and the conceptual realities be combined? --------------------------------- Icaro has already given the technical answer, which is that there are concepts that refer to realities. For example, the terms "nama" and "mental phenomenon" are concepts that refer to a reality (any reality that experiences an object). Therefore, I am of the opinion that we already have a teaching - in the Pali Canon - that combines ultimate and conceptual realities. But that might not be what you are talking about. -------------------------------------------------- J: > When I described what 'my' (formal) insight (vipassana) meditation is, I did that of course in conceptual language; in the first place because 'time' plays a role in it (and time does not exist as a ultimate realitiy). And in the second place because in 'my' meditation there are many conceptuals and a few ultimate moments. --------------------------------------------------- I am following you so far, although I don't entirely agree with your choice of words. All moments are ultimate moments - there are no conceptual moments. At all times there are namas experiencing an object. However, in some moments the object is a concept (pannatti), while in other moments the object is a reality (nama or rupa). That is the only difference. ------------------------------------------------------- J: > What you describe as insight meditation, is in ultimate terms; but this is exactly what happens on some moments (not continous because I'm not a saint) during my insight-meditation-PROCESS ! I'm describing a process and that's of course in conceptual language. --------------------------------------------------------- I think I understand exactly what you are saying, and I agree. The only disagreement I might have is with regard to the "insight" you are referring to. I don't think beginners like you or I are likely to experience moments of satipatthana (direct insight into the characteristics of a paramattha dhamma). But we might have moments of pariyatti (in which a concept of a paramattha dhamma is experienced with [intellectual] insight). Therefore, I agree that your "insight meditation process" is a series of different moments; some wholesome, some unwholesome, some in which there is wholesome reflection on the Dhamma. Where we might not agree - and where there is so much debate on DSG - is with regard to a set time or place in which this process occurs. I think a moment of insight (like all moments) arises in dependence upon conditions (other paramattha dhammas) not in dependence upon the concept of a time or place (or of a correct physical posture, or a prepared state of mind, or intention to have insight and so on). So it is not the formal meditation itself that prevents insight, but rather a lack of the required conditions: in other words, ignorance of the Dhamma. Sometimes ignorance is coupled with wrong understanding (particularly, belief in the efficacy of formal meditation) in which case the problem is compounded. ---------------------- J: > So my question is: HOW TO LINK ULTIMATE AND CONCEPTUAL REALITIES? Of course: that must be done in the discursive language of the Suttas, but how to use that language between the system of ultimate Abhidhamma-words ànd the reality of daily life as expressed in conceptual english language? ---------------------- I understand the question, but I don't see the problem. To my mind, we are doing quite well as we are. ------------------------------------ J: > I think I have not formulated my question good enough, I hope my understanding of the question itself increases by the 'answers' of you and other DSG-participants. ------------------------------------ I hope so too. And I hope my answers have helped more than hindered. ---------------------------------------------------- J: > A short remark about our original discussion and your quote above, Ken. In his ebook 'Essentials of Insight Meditation' Ven. Sujiva describes clear that in samatha meditation the object of meditation is a concept; and in vipassana meditation (as I TRY to practice it) the objects (plural!) are ultimate realities: arising and falling away. ---------------------------------------------------- I will reply to this remark separately. See you later, Ken H 53161 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 8:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Hi Connie, Can you translate this: Connie: "Hi Larry, The phenomena (dhammaa) preceded by mind (citta) are cetasikas. Those minds (c&c) precede dhammaa that are actions thru the body, speech & mind doors... rupa (tho not all rupas; some precede mind). All these dhammaa are included in the (Buddha)dhamma of the title, as is nibbaana. Without the (Buddha)dhamma, we wouldn't be as likely to ever understand that the true nature of all phenomena is not as we ordinarily conceive and believe." L: Mind precedes cetasikas that are actions through the body, speech, and mind doors? What does the "rupa" above mean? All these cetasikas are included in the "path of truth" (dhammapada)? Cetasikas are included in concepts (truths)? How is this truth (dhamma) a path or footing? Larry 53162 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:25pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi, Larry, No, I don't mean to say cittas and the accompanying cetasikas, which we call mind or mental action or thoughts, etc. are speech or bodily actions. Speech and bodily action are rupas that are mind or consciousness produced. Some rupas, like eye-base, are born of kamma, which is, essentially, the cetasika called cetana. Other rupas are heat or nutriment produced, so I meant to say that not all rupas are mind-produced. Yes, the Dhammapada talks about nama (citta, cetasika & nibbanna) and rupa; there is nothing else in the ultimate sense. Cetasika the word is a concept, a name, but it is the name of an ultimate reality. A concept can be a footing/proximate cause of understanding. Right Understanding is the Path forerunner. Is that better? hopeful, connie Connie: "Hi Larry, The phenomena (dhammaa) preceded by mind (citta) are cetasikas. Those minds (c&c) precede dhammaa that are actions thru the body, speech & mind doors... rupa (tho not all rupas; some precede mind). All these dhammaa are included in the (Buddha)dhamma of the title, as is nibbaana. Without the (Buddha)dhamma, we wouldn't be as likely to ever understand that the true nature of all phenomena is not as we ordinarily conceive and believe." L: Mind precedes cetasikas that are actions through the body, speech, and mind doors? What does the "rupa" above mean? All these cetasikas are included in the "path of truth" (dhammapada)? Cetasikas are included in concepts (truths)? How is this truth (dhamma) a path or footing? 53163 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 9:11pm Subject: In Dependence on Contact ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Sensing causes Contact causes Feeling causes Craving causes Clinging! This have I heard. At this time the Blessed One was living in the Natika Brick-House. Then while being secluded & all alone, the Blessed Buddha spoke this deep Dhamma: In dependence the eye and forms, visual consciousness arises... In dependence the ear and sounds, auditory consciousness arises... In dependence the nose and odours, olfactory consciousness arises... In dependence the tongue and flavours, gustatory consciousness arises... In dependence the body and touches, tactile consciousness arises... In dependence the mind and thoughts, mental consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... Conditioned by contact, feeling comes to be. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. Conditioned by craving, clinging emerges. Conditioned by clinging, becoming appear. Conditioned by becoming, rebirth happens. Conditioned by birth, ageing & death arrive! Such is the cause of this conditioned origin of that whole accumulation of suffering...!!! In dependence the eye and forms, visual consciousness arises... In dependence the ear and sounds, auditory consciousness arises... In dependence the nose and odours, olfactory consciousness arises... In dependence the tongue and flavours, gustatory consciousness arises... In dependence the body and touches, tactile consciousness arises... In dependence the mind and thoughts, mental consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... Conditioned by contact feeling arises. But by the complete stilling, fading all away and ceasing of that very same craving, comes the instantaneous cessation of clinging! The ending of clinging ceases becoming. The ending of becoming ceases any rebirth. The ending of birth ceases ageing, decay, sickness, death, sorrow, pain & much panic! That is the cause of the conditioned ceasing of this entire massive bulk of suffering...!!! Now a certain Bhikkhu was then standing listening to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him standing there listening and said to him: Did you hear that Dhamma explanation, bhikkhu? Yes, Sir! Learn that Dhamma exposition, Bhikkhu, remember it, make it as if your own, and master it, since that Dhamma is advantageous & fundamental to all the Noble life. Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book II 74-5 The section on Causation 12. Thread on Natika: 45. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 53164 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:29pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 327- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [t] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] It is hard to eradicate regret. Even the sotåpanna may still have regret, although he has no conditions for regret on account of akusala kamma which is of the intensity to produce an unhappy rebirth; he has eradicated the tendencies to such evil deeds. The sotåpanna still has lobha-múla-citta, dosa-múla-citta and mohamúla-citta. He does not have dosa-múla-citta with envy or stinginess, but dosa-múla-citta still arises, and sometimes it may be accompanied by regret. He may speak harshly, or he may have laziness as to the performing of kusala, and on account of this regret can arise. The sotåpanna is bound to have regret less often than those who are non-ariyans. When one has not attained enlightenment one may be often inclined to brood over the past. The sotåpanna has developed the four “Applications of Mindfulness”, and thus he has less conditions than the non-ariyan to worry about the past. When regret arises he realizes that it is only a conditioned dhamma, saòkhåra dhamma, and he does not take it for self. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53165 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:42pm Subject: Dojo RULES! nichiconn Too-Funny-Phil, We'll have to have a grand-father clause! My picture's already dark enough. Meanwhile, the SPD came today so I'll start thinking about those cheat sheets. :) Thank you, everyone. SPD Rocks. connie 53166 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Connie: "Is that better?" L: Excellent. Anumodana. But, I don't think the sense of the first two verses is that speech and action follow after mind. If one speaks or acts with a wicked or good mind (akusala, kusala citta) dukkha or sukha follows, like a wheel or shadow. It is this dukkha or sukha that the mind precedes, is master of, and originates or makes. Essentially, dhammaa are feelings. Larry -------------------- Connie: "Hi, Larry, No, I don't mean to say cittas and the accompanying cetasikas, which we call mind or mental action or thoughts, etc. are speech or bodily actions. Speech and bodily action are rupas that are mind or consciousness produced. Some rupas, like eye-base, are born of kamma, which is, essentially, the cetasika called cetana. Other rupas are heat or nutriment produced, so I meant to say that not all rupas are mind-produced. Yes, the Dhammapada talks about nama (citta, cetasika & nibbanna) and rupa; there is nothing else in the ultimate sense. Cetasika the word is a concept, a name, but it is the name of an ultimate reality. A concept can be a footing/proximate cause of understanding. Right Understanding is the Path forerunner. Is that better? hopeful, connie" 53167 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 327- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [t] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] It is hard to eradicate regret. Even the sotåpanna may still is only a conditioned dhamma, saòkhåra dhamma, and he does not take it for self. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah ( & Nina), Thanks for this series. Very nice and concise. For 1. question, 2. comment, 3. different view as the post is already good, complete, and truely Thera's view there is not much to add. Sotapanna do not have wrong view. It is wrong view that send beings into disasters created by envy and stinginess, which again are loaded with aversion. As long as once-returner-path-knowledge has not arise aversion is still there as a tendency and whenever there is a chance it arise. But aversion does not call for its companions of envy and stinginess in ariyaa that is sotapanna and higher ariyaa. But worry or repent is still there when there are conditions even though the host is sotapanna. This happen because worry or repent (kukkucca) is not associated particularly with wrong view even though it at time may make friend with wrong view in puthujana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53168 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 10:34pm Subject: Re: The Cause of Ignorance ??? !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Nidive wisely asked: >What is the cause of ignorance? >From what as a requisite condition comes ignorance? First: Ignorance is not seeing and not knowing the 4 Noble Truths fully!_ As a near and proximate cause:_ Ignorance comes into being caused & conditioned by the 5 hindrances! That is right here & now: Ignorance grows up caused by desire & lust... Ignorance arises caused by aversion & ill-will... Ignorance emerges caused by lethargy & laziness... Ignorance appears caused by restlessness & regret... Ignorance comes into being caused by doubt & uncertainty... And!: _As a remote and subtle cause: _Conditioned by mental fermentation (asava) does ignorance come into being: That is multi-factorially, on the long-term, as a deeply hidden latent tendency: Ignorance is caused by the mental fermentation linked with sense-desire. Ignorance is caused by the mental fermentation associated with various views. Ignorance is caused by the mental fermentation coupled with new becoming. Ignorance is caused by the mental fermentation joined with ignorance itself! Ignorance thus grows more ignorance in a fatal positively self-enhanced feedback-loop! _Sutta references: AN X 61, AN X 62 _ Bhikkhus, a beginning of ignorance cannot be pointed out in this way: Before this point in time, there was no ignorance, it came into existence afterwards. But, Bhikkhus, it can be pointed out in this way: Caused by this, ignorance comes to be. Bhikkhus, I tell you, ignorance too has a causing condition! What is the causing condition of ignorance? The five mental hindrances is the reply..._ And in MN 9:_ And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the ceasing of ignorance, what is the way leading to the ceasing of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the ceasing of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the ceasing of suffering, this is called ignorance! With the arising of the mental fermentations, there is the arising of ignorance. With the ceasing of the mental fermentations, there is ceasing of ignorance! The way leading to the ceasing of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path: That is; Right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort and right concentration. Thanx for this good and very basic question. Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 53169 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 3:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 584 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread posts have reached number 584. It starts with general talking on the world and our perceptions to the world. Then it starts to explain what consciousness (citta) is. After that different classifications of consciousness are discussed from different angles and different views in terms of object, ground, function etc etc. Then the associated mental phenomena or associated mental factors, which are called cetasika in Paa.li. After explanation on 52 cetasikas different ruupas are expounded. Nibbana the term is well explained after explanation on citta, cetasika, and ruupa. After nibbana the most frequently used things that is pannatti or naming or concepts are explained. Mind is actually not a static entity. It is impermanent. It is just a rapid flux of continuous (uninterrupted) flow of consciousness. This matter of procession of consciousness (viithi) is also explained to some detail. In procession of consciousness there are different series of consciousness in procession well explained in Dhamma Thread posts. They are 1. 5-sense-door-consciousness-procession (panca-dvaara-kaama-javana) 2. mind-door-consciousness-procession(mano-dvaara-kamma-javana-vaara) 3. mind-door-jhaana-consciosuness-procession(jhaana-javana-vaara) 4. mind-door-path-consciousness-procession (magga-javana-vaara) 5. mind-door-fruition-consciousness-procession (phala-javana-vaara) 6. mind-door-superpower-consciousness-procession(abi~n~naana-javana) 7. mind-door-jhaana-attainment-procession (jhaana-samaapatti) 8. mind-door-phala-attainment-procession (phala-samaapatti) 9. mind-door-cessaion-attainment-preprocession-postprocession (nirodha-samaapatti). It is these mental energies that work as underlying ultimate realities, which are seen in illusionery way by the worldly beings. These processions are not arising on their own but they have to ground on ruupa dhamma and these matters will be explained in the later part of Dhamma Thread post. Consciousness are not always in procession. But they sometimes actually most of the time arise without in procession. At that time they do not have to depend on any door of six namely eye-door, ear- door, nose-door, tongue-door, body-door, and mind-door. These door-free consciousness (patisandhii, bhavanga, cuti or in simple English linking-consciousness, life-continuing-consciousness, and life-ceasing-conscinousness) are also discussed along with different realms for beings. After explanation on realms and the lifespans of beings in 31 realms different stock of Dhamma are being discussed. I presented them as 4 different stocks of Dhamma. The last stock is general stock and among different stocks in general stock the last that I am writing on is Noble Truth. The first three truths have been discussed. The 4th truth is Noble Truth of the path leading to cessation of the suffering. It is magga- saccaa or the truth of the Path. It is Eightfold Path. The first part has been posted. Coming post is on right thinking or right thought or sammaa-sankappa. This post is just for a summary that what I have writing under Dhamma Thread posts. My reference is 'Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha text by Aacariya Anuruddhaa' and I also use other facilities as references like Paa.li-English Dictionaries, English-Paa.li Dictionary, some suttanta facilities, Jaataka, Tiikaa and many more even though my main source is little-finger-text called Abhidhammatthasa1ngaha. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53170 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: The Cause of Ignorance ??? !!! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita wrote: Friend Nidive wisely asked: The way leading to the ceasing of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path: That is; Right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort and right concentration. Thanx for this good and very basic question. Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante and Swee Boon, May I come in your discussion? Thanks Bhante for your kind research and well-explanation and presentation. Just a point. Did you accidentally drop 'right mindfulness'? With respect, Htoo Naing 53171 From: "Sebastien aka French Dread aka Mesa" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 4:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sbillard2000 Hi Sarah, > S: I see the `problem' a little differently. I think for all of us, the > only real problem is the present ignorance of dhammas. So whether we tend > to intellectualize a lot or give attention to any different objects > according to our inclinations, usually there's ignorance and little > awareness of these present dhammas. > > The way to develop awareness and understanding of dhammas, however, is not > to do something special (which is bound to be with one of those > deep-seated wrong views based on self-view, as I see it), but to consider, > reflect and `study' more about what present dhammas are, so that gradually > awareness will be aware naturally and understanding can begin to know when > such awareness arises. > > I'd be interested to hear your comments on this. Well in a sense, it is very true that nothing has to be done. It is not by adding action to action that cessation can be attained. Though, I also think some training (which is action) may be useful or necessary. A peaceful, pacified mind could help to see dhamma more clearly and meditation is a such training I think. (Again don't take my words too seriously, I am just a puthujana trying to learn) > S: Can there be `meditation' or `seclusion' even now as we write? Can > there not be awareness of `seeing' or `visible object' or `thinking' or > `doubt' right now? When awareness arises, there is a `living alone' with > the present dhamma. Isn't this what `meditation' or bhavana is all about, > rather than waiting til we visit a Theravadin centre? Well there is nothing special in any center, just trained practitioners and instructors that could help. I am sure that awareness can be maintained in any situation, even now as you said. Though as an ordinary person, I am not very "aware" in my daily activities, and need therefore some method and training. Now if you have any method I could follow to increase awareness while working on computer, cooking, walking in a crowd please let me know :) > S: Btw, with regard to your comments on why sometimes ignorance and > sometimes attachment are given `as the beginning',the commentary to the > Dhammasangani (Sammohavinodani) gives a lot of detail about why each is > used in different contexts. I quoted from this before. I won't go into it > now, but pls let me know if you'd like me to quote again or try to find > what I wrote before. Don't hesitate if you have any link, otherwise I will do my own research Thanks :) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr 53172 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 4:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 585 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta The Buddha preached to five ascetics or panca-vaggii [who were the first five disciples of The Buddha] that there are two extremes. One extreme is living in luxurious way or indulging in sensuality. Another extreme is living in the way of self-torture. These are two extemes that are not fruitful. The Buddha advised to avoid these two extremes when one is searching for liberation. After expression of these two extremes, The Buddha continued to explaine on another way which really leads to liberation. This third way is known as 'THE MIDDLE WAY'. Here, one should be careful that 'THE MIDDLE WAY' is not the result of division by two on summation of sensuality and self-torture. It is said it is 'THE MIDDLE WAY' because it is not extreme. That MIDDLE WAY is made up of eight parts. They are 1. right view (sammaa ditthi) 2. right thought (sammaa sankappa)_ [pa~n~naa-magga`nga] 3. right speech (sammaa vaacaa) 4. right action (sammaa kammanta) 5. right livelihood (sammaa aajiiva)_ [siila-magga`nga] 6. right effort (sammaa vaayama) 7. right mindfulness (sammaa sati) 8. right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) Right view is knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the cause of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of suffering. After right view comes right thought or right thinking or right resolve or right motivation. In essence this right thought is vitakka cetasika. Vitakka has the power of rowing boat. Because of rowing the boat has to move. The choice of direction or steering is not of its job but other mental factor called 'ATTENTION' or manasikaara. For vitakka to become right thought oe sammaa-sankappa there have to have characters. The Buddha preached in Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta in Diigha Nikaaya that_: 'Monks! Which is right thought? There are the thought that is trying to escape sensuality, the thought that goes against ill-will, the though that goes reversely against tortureing. Monks, these three thoughts are right thought.' 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaa sankappo? Nekkhamma sankappo, abyaapaada sankappo, avihi.msaa sankappo. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa sankappo'. [ Diigha Nikaaya DN 22 Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta ] The thoughts that have so mentioned qualities have to accompany right view and other path factors to the cessation of suffering or nibbana. This is right thought. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53173 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 4:28am Subject: Re: Dhammapada icarofranca Hi Connie! >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie >wrote: > > Icaro! > In Illustrator, Nan says he used 6 different translations for >dhamma! But > we need to watch our Spelling, my man ;). Samattha >is 'skillful/able'. > That quiet heart, samatha, is also 'settlement of legal >questions'. > Still, I suppose if all our questions are Ideally settled (that is, >iaw > the law/Dhamma), it's moot. (not that i really understand what >moot > means). >------------------------------------------------------------------ And I was thinking that Spelling is defunct!!! Oh my!!! I must study Pali more eagerly! The word I was bearing in mind is Samatha - a very difficult Pali term to translate. Many suttas make a stand that samatha could be either a different form of meditation or a different phase of a unique meditation event: Samatha/Vipassana. But I am following with interest your dialoque with Larry about the two first stanzas of Dhammapada: the final ideas of first verse are intriguing "...suffering will follow like a Wheel of a chart that follows the footprints of the Bull that's pulling it". The stanza begins with the precedence of citta - mind - about all cetasika, phenomena and events, and ends with a very pictorical description of a conventional idea... I will continue reading your posts! Metta []s Ícaro > [s] > c. > > Ic: So, "Dhammapada" can be translated approximately as "Perfect Way", > "Ideal way" or "Ideal footing". Again, we find ourselves with very similar > ideas on Lao Tzu´s Tao Teh King - The Book of the Perfect Way, in > chinese...never forgetting that translating words and ideas from an > oriental language to ocidental ones (or even between oriental languages!) > is a very hard task: one can consider, for example, a word as "Samattha" - > is very difficult to find some ocidental word to match it and we end with > a somewhat complex idea as "Tranquility of Mind" to fit it. > 53174 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:29am Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 2 sukinderpal Dear Htoo. Continuation from part 1. ============================ Htoo: > You seem to be saying that > > 'To increase confidence one should read all 7 texts of abhidhammaa > and other texts'. Sukin in this post: No. And I wouldn't even say to go and check with the Tipitaka as a whole. Also you know much Abhidhamma, and yet our understanding is quite different. ;-) What I am saying is that there is so much avijja, lobha and the tendency to wrong view, that the need is there to be reminded again and again about the different dhammas and with increasing precision. And we need to know about how each are conditioned differently and also that these can only be understood when they arise. And the whole of the Tipitaka can work as condition for this, depending on our own accumulations. One becomes increasingly firm in the understanding that the "presently arising" dhamma is doing all the work of dictating things and that any idea about when, where and how that we have is likely conditioned by `self attachment' and lack of saddha. If indeed we truly believe that the dhamma now is conditioned and anatta, then the saddha is in relation to *this* understanding. ===================================== > Sukin: > If patipatti is about a presently arising dhamma, then too should > pariyatti be. The realization that pariyatti is not the same as > patipatti must not give rise then to the idea of `doing' something > in order for the latter to arise. For this is in fact following > a "wrong theory", one that seems to deny conditionality and anatta > and states to the effect that dhammas can be controlled by some > particular conventional activity and/or any decision to "note". > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This seems you have not met any good retreats and you must have > experienced bad regarding retreats. But one thing I agree is > pariyatti and patipatti have to be the same 'IN ESSENCE' but not the > same in cause. Pariyatti is one and patipatti is another. Sukin in this post: Yes, and so I am not talking with reference to any personal experience with retreats, but from what I understand to be correct patipatti. ;-) =================================== Htoo: > Potthila Thera was an elder. He had learnt all the teachings taught by elder > Theras and The Buddha. His knowledge and understanding was > sufficient for liberation. If he was to be conferred he would > be 'the bearer of all teachings'. This can be said as 'the bearer of > 3-baskets' 'Tipitakadhara'. The Buddha teased him 'tuccha, tuccha, > tuccha..'. Sorry for Paa.li word but this is the accurate sounnd > that The Buddha said. Potthila became doubt as he thought he attained > defilement-eradicating-path-knowledge. He also taught Dhamma- > students (Buddhist monks) and even his pupils attained arahatship > with his teachings. But he had been just ordinary monk (puthujana). > He approached The Buddha and he was transferred to Sariputta and > this great Thera again transferred him to junior and junior monks > down to 7-year-old samanera. Finally samanera accept this great monk > as his student. ONLY WITH PRACTCE HE BECAME AN ARAHAT WITHIN A SHORT > TIME. Sukin in this post: Yes, "ONLY WITH PRACTCE HE BECAME AN ARAHAT WITHIN A SHORT TIME." We all know the difference between intellectual and direct understanding. However, even though you agree about patipatti being a reference to a moment of citta, you say that it can arise only if there is a decision to do `formal meditation'. I on the other hand, think that it cannot arise when there is the idea of `self' and control and that `formal meditation' is one such idea. I think the understanding of pakatupanissaya paccaya is very important. This would condition an understanding that dhammas arise by conditions beyond control and has nothing to do with "conventional" situation or activity. In fact it is the lack of understanding of this that ideas about a better time, place and activity arise. And this at the same time reflects the lack of saddha. You say that Potthila Thera "thought he attained defilement-eradicating- path-knowledge", but I don't think any of the `pro-daily life' members of DSG thinks that he or she has anything much beyond mere pariyatti understanding. So is this a good comparison? But of course Potthila Thera did have a much greater accumulated understanding than any of us, though even with this we can see the danger of misjudgment about one's achievement based on sanna and ability to explain dhamma. In fact this should be a warning not so much to those of us who admit to having only intellectual understanding, but to those `meditators' who based on subjective experience, misjudge and mislabel these experiences and therefore wrongly estimate their level of understanding. But in the case of Potthila Thera it was precisely because of the great accumulated understanding that he then did not mistake patipatti for anything but a momentary arising dhamma on being instructed the 7-year-old samanera. If he did "sit", it may have been by force of strong `determination' and surely great `understanding', it wouldn't have been because he saw it as a "path of practice" would he? ============================== To be continued in part 3. Metta, Sukin 53175 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:30am Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 3 sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continued from part 2. ============================== > Sukin: > There is no control over dhammas, so at any given moment there can > be a level of intellectual understanding of what has been > conditioned to arise. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I accept and agree. Those who go to retreats are taught Dhamma by > their teachers there. They are examined on a regular basis. > > Say one chose a place (a retreat) and a time (3 months from Visak). > He may be sitting with wrong view. But frequency-wise who will have > much more akusala? > > a) those in the middle of struggling family life like sending > children to their school in the middle of noisy hell. > > b) those at a retreat listening to Dhamma, asking Dhamma questions to > their teachers, sitting in peace, sending metta, chanting Buddha's > Attributes, Dhamma Attributes, Sangha's Attributes. Sukin in this post: You've seen my argument above against such an idea. Here I will comment on your question above. Firstly, the aim of studying the Buddha's Teachings should be to understand conditioned realities and not so much to develop more kusala regardless of this. Therefore real development of kusala of other levels, particularly of the paramis, happens only when there is understanding of anatta and conditionality. The reference to Samatha and Vipassana developing together is in such cases. It is not about abstractly thinking about these two ideas and then with `self' attempt to manipulate reality. Besides it is because the stress is *rightly* at understanding conditionality, that questions about better situations does not arise. Let me take your examples of situations; a) This is my own situation, in fact conventionally speaking, it is worse. But it reflects only my own akusala, the lack of understanding and other paramis. If we were to consider the moments of vipaka and the fact of the `eight worldly conditions', we will see how momentary and fleeting these are. So the rest of the time it is only our own akusala to be blamed. Do you think that because we realize that we have little understanding and so much akusala, that we should then seek better situations where these wouldn't arise? How about the attachment and wrong view associated with such an idea then? Isn't this more dangerous? And do we really "know" our accumulations to know what is best for us? Or are we having a generalized view about `situations' and applying this to everyone? b) It is good that we are able to be in situations where Dhamma is being taught and are able to discuss. Chanda and panna may drive us to seek out wisdom. But this is not the motive of going to retreats is it? As you have stated above, the motive is quite different. It implies and reflects the idea of `self' and `control'. And there is even an inclination to believe that mere chanting can condition understanding or that it works for everyone who takes part. And what is this "sending metta"? ===================================== > Sukin: > If indeed the pariyatti is correct, the saddha conditioned by this, > will point to the need for acceptance instead of an idea to "have > more", i.e. patipatti instead of only pariyatti. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Text reading, text translation, text writing, text learning to the > most is for those who enter the Order of The Sangha even though this > may help lay people. > > There DO have difference between pariyatti and patipatti. > > If NOT there will not be these names separately. Sukin in this post: But the point is can pariyatti be made to arise, can patipatti be made to arise by any decision to "do" something? =========================================== > Sukin: > Dhamma rules, unaffected by any wishing or wanting for more. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I know. Those who are mature in Dhamma know. Those who have learnt > know. But zeal (chanda) is not attachment (lobha). > > Without zeal or wish (chanda) one will never attain enlightenment. Sukin in this post: Yes, and without knowing the difference between chanda and lobha, there can be mistaking one for the other. But the real problem seems to be in the assumption that when "thinking about meditating" it is because of chanda and not lobha. ================================== > Sukin: > Does it sound reasonable that say, a person in whom sati, viriya, > panna and such have been accumulated to the extent that patipatti > arises quite readily, that he should wish and seek instead to > experience pativedha by doing something and going somewhere else? If > not, then why not the same with the relationship between pariyatti > and patipatti? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Not clear. Sukin in this post: A person for whom the development of sati and panna has reached a high level and so patipatti arises in him quite easily and "naturally"; would he seek out a more suitable place to increase his panna, perhaps so that he can experience pativedha? If this line of thinking is not reasonable in his case, based on the understanding that dhammas cannot be controlled, then why not the same in the case in those of us who have mostly only pariyatti understanding? Why should we seek `another place' with such an idea? As I said before, dhammas work their way at a level unrelated to our ideas about better time and place. ========================================== > Sukin: > I think the main problem is that those who meditate, sincerely > believe their experiences to be sati/satipatthana when in fact it is > as Phil often says, `refined thinking' conditioned by lobha and > ditthi. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I see is that those who never do meditation will be thinking > these refined things to be more refined. Reading is reading, > understanding is understanding. Unless on the path reading will not > be patipatti. Sukin in this post: Well this is not my perspective. And since I mentioned Phil let me take him as example. When I read his posts, I see that his "understanding" is increasing quite fast, or rather, whatever the accumulated understanding, it is beginning to show more and more. I think not only that daily life is where development of sati and panna has to be developed, but it is the attitudes towards day to day experiences which act as reflection of the level of understanding. It is easier to see how much understanding there is in this case, it is hard to see this when someone often brings up Sutta quotes to prove himself. We pro- pariyatti folks are seen as being theoretical, but really I see rather, it is those who so readily bring out Suttas with high sounding concepts, that are in fact `clinging to labels'. ;-) ==================================== Htoo: > Lobha does arise even in Anaagams or non-returners. Why bother it? > And ditthi is the main target to eliminate Sukin in this post: I agree 100%. ;-) =================================== Htoo: > and this is the main reason that retreats are for. Sukin in this post: And so it defeats its own purpose, since the very idea itself is conditioned as far as I can see, by wrong view. =================================== > Sukin: > But is it not just that, "concepts"? Aren't brothels and retreats > equally unreal? Doesn't giving such concepts more importance than it > has, detracts from the real purpose of studying the Dhamma, namely to > understand conditioned realities? In fact does it not then also > increases attachment and wrong view? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Of course, you can choose what you like even though there is no you > at all. > > Sumedho chose to became a Sammasambuddha. Sukin in this post: Sumedho had no wrong understanding about the concept of Sammasambuddha. The concept of retreat on the other hand is infested with projections rooted in attachment and wrong view, and this can condition more wrong view when it becomes the object of our interest. ==================================== I have been unable to respond sooner due to 3 days holiday and staying home in the `noisy hell'. You could say that it is an obstacle with regards to certain conventional activities, for example, to find time to write a response to you. But cittas rise and fall with the same frequency; and it is here that panna does not mind about when and where. On the other hand lobha and wrong view that wants another time and place is the same lobha and wrong view which ultimately gets it. ;-) ================================ There will be many opportunities to discuss these points again; therefore if you wish it, we can drop this discussion here. Metta, Sukin. 53176 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 1. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Before I go on, I would like to let you know that I just realized during this Saturday discussions with K. Sujin and others, that my understanding of `rites and ritual' has been quite blurry, and that my use of the concept in my discussions with you in the past, was off the mark. I still don't quite understand the exact meaning, however in looking back; I now understand why you would insist on the limited reference of this to being as in the examples of those in the Buddha's times, who behaved like dogs etc. So thanks Htoo, for being patient with my misuse of the term. Actually, there is something else which I think you were right about, but at present I can't recall. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for both these points. ;-) So from now on, I will identify `formal meditation' as being `wrong practice' and leave out any reference to `rite and ritual'. But you can see that other disagreements remain……… ================================ > Sukin in this post: > No I don't think there is any path apart from stream-entry capable of > eradicating wrong view. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If so, why do you bother while ONLY stream-entering-path-knowldge > does its own work? Sukin in this post: Because the path towards Stream-Entry consists of moments of both pariyatti and patipatti. Without the former, the latter can never arise. Not having heard the Teachings, still the nimitta of various dhammas appear to give the impression that there is dosa, lobha, mana and so on, only these will be seen as `self'. After hearing the Dhamma, it will be the same, except there can begin to be the understanding that these are just "dhammas" and "anatta". And this is an instance of pariyatti understanding without which the patipatti can never be conditioned to arise. Why? Because otherwise whatever ideas of practice that follows, it will be with `self'. So what you seem to be stating, is that one should ignore any pariyatti understanding of an instance of "wrong view" and instead to go along with the idea to `meditate' because we haven't `eradicated' wrong view? Is this correct understanding? To be able to hear and understand about right/wrong view is equivalent to receiving the greatest of gifts, don't you think? And doesn't development along the path involve `correcting one's views' gradually, and we should be questioning any present understanding associated with ideas such as retreats etc.? ========================================== > Sukin: > The purpose of studying Dhamma is so that there can be better > understanding of conditioned realities. The correct intellectual > understanding must lead to an increased confidence that the Dhamma > to be known is none other than that which appears "now". Hence would > it be meaningful to state that "all is dhamma". > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I accept 'the importance of understanding'. > > One Venerable said, 'Is that not enough to know things are > impermanent? Would you be reading for many years without the help > of experts to understand all the conditionality? I do not stop you > or hinder you, Upasakaa. But you should put your self on practice.' Sukin in this post: I think this a common conclusion. Understand impermanence?! Some would say "all we need is to see the Tilakkhana in all things"!!?? But you know that the Tilakkhana is a characteristic of dhammas and that we need to understand these as nama-rupa, as dhatus, as khandhas etc. before we can really know what anicca, dukkha and anatta really are. Of course along the way of understanding the former even intellectually, a better understanding of the latter is gradually accumulated. But to ignore the need to understand nama and rupa appearing now, and which necessarily starts with an intellectual understanding, is to be making a wrong application of Dhamma. It is to be caught up in an "idea", with the risk of proliferating to being applicable to `concepts' such as that "trees etc. also are anicca". And this may even take us away from the need to understand nama and rupa "now". So aren't we then placing ourselves to be fooled by our own experiences during `meditation' (another idea we are duped by)!! This process is similar to ones that seek to experience the D.O. in daily life. ========================================= Htoo: > Retreats do preach Dhamma and these Dhamma are expounded by experts. > This teaching is to increase understanding. If this is not what is > the reason of arranging retreats. Sukin in this post: This is a similar reasoning to the one I've pointed out before, namely that one `applies dhamma knowledge' to an activity. In my opinion, this is not how development of understanding works and patipatti arises. There is no `self' who can make pariyatti arise nor can anyone apply any theoretical understanding to the moment. It would be only more `thinking'. Pariyatti arises and falls in an instant, so does patipatti. If while listening to and discussing dhamma, pariyatti arises, it falls away instantly. Likewise patipatti too can arise and fall away by conditions beyond control. Therefore the idea of `applying' is wrong. So no matter how much Dhamma is taught in retreats, if the attitude is such that there is a `self' to arrange and order activities, it is of no use. Also the teacher will not be able to escape the interpretation of dhamma, one that is selective and made to tie with the idea of `formal sitting'. So in my opinion, even the Dhamma taught is not pure. =========================================== > Sukin: > This implies then, that if this level of confidence is lacking and > we are still caught up in ideas about "better time and place", it > reflects an as yet weak if not wrong, pariyatti. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I think you are referring to non-Myanmar Buddhists and especially > Westerners. > > Saddha has its own character. When saddha arises in people who have > not learned anything yet it is still saddhaa. Sukin in this post: Saddha is of course in direct proportion to the level of understanding. Besides, there is saddha at the level of ordinary kusala, which is found in other religions as well. When one has faith in the Buddha's Teachings, there can be many levels of saddha, and often people confuse and mix these two different aspects of saddha, i.e. of ordinary kusala and of the `right view' of Dhamma. They place their priorities in the wrong place thinking for example, that the reflection of the development along the path lies in the fact that one has less lobha and dosa. And so they are likely to end up following wrong practices, ones that at best suppress any akusala and at worse increases `delusion' about one's own level of development. At other times what often happens is, because the level of understanding is weak, what little saddha is there to condition an interest in the Teachings, often it is followed by all types of akusala including wrong view of self. One thinks immediately about `self' having to study and/or do something in order to gain more understanding. With this as conditioning factor, then most of what the teacher says may not in fact be heard with any saddha, but something else, perhaps a vancaka dhamma, attachment and blind faith? ======================================== To be continued in part 2. Metta, Sukin. 53177 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 1. buddhatrue Hi Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Before I go on, I would like to let you know that I just realized during > this Saturday discussions with K. Sujin and others, that my > understanding of `rites and ritual' has been quite blurry, and that my > use of the concept in my discussions with you in the past, was off the > mark. I still don't quite understand the exact meaning, however in > looking back; I now understand why you would insist on the limited > reference of this to being as in the examples of those in the Buddha's > times, who behaved like dogs etc. So thanks Htoo, for being patient with > my misuse of the term. Actually, there is something else which I think > you were right about, but at present I can't recall. Anyway, I just > wanted to say thanks for both these points. ;-) > > So from now on, I will identify `formal meditation' as being `wrong > practice' and leave out any reference to `rite and ritual'. But you can see > that other disagreements remain……… This is a very nice apology and appropriate concession. My respect for you has increased dramatically! ;-) Metta, James AKA Dojo Buster 53178 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) jwromeijn Hallo Azita, Sarah, all Thanks for your answers, Azita. I had one problem with it: the word "bec." This does not occur in my dictionary english-dutch, that makes a part of your rich answer uncomprehensible Azita: "In one sense, they cannot be linked at all bec. one is about absolute truth and the other about concepts. … Joop: Of course that's true but my question is: is it possible to write a text or give or talk without using any concepts? I think that is not possible: every text is always a mixture. My question then is about the art of making the best possible mixture. What you said about the Foundation is clear, but I hoped to get more a sociological than a spiritual answer. Not from a curiosity but because I hope organisations like the Foundation in Bangkok can start in other cities too, for example in my country: not persé a Sujin- organisation but a comparable lay-movement. Have you or other DSG- participants tried to start one in the citie they live? Metta Joop 53179 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditioned/unconditioned nilovg Hi Susan, op 05-12-2005 16:36 schreef susan op sues.greenbank@...: > If everything we experience in life is conditioned and we can't control > events in our sensory world, does this mean then that there is an > unconditioned state to be realised, ----- N: You understand a deep truth. This is exactly what the Bodhisatta Sumedha thought when he looked for the truth. -------- S: and if we realise this unconditioned > state we therefore have the comparison to know a truth. ------ N: This is too soon. It does not work that way. Nibbaana can only be realized when conditioned phenomena are thoroughly known as they truly are and not as we think them to be. ------ S: Would an > unconditioned state be Nibanna, end of suffering end of attachments? ------- N: You understand this correctly. ----------- S: Is my life as I live or observe it, being attached to my 'self', just a > temporary existence that I try to change in an attempt to gain control of > something, is this the illusion? I'm not my body. > > From what I think I'm understanding here is that I'm not my thoughts. I'll > quit now before I talk myself in circles lol. ------ N: Very well understood, you are not your body, not your mind. Your life a temporary existence: more temporary than you ever thought. Each unit of your body, each mindstate changes all the time. Gradually you can learn that seeing experiences only what appears through the eyesense, not people or things. Seeing is conditioned, it is conditioned by eyesense and colour or visible object that impinges on the eyesense. Thinking which closely follows perceives persons and things. This can be understood first intellectually and later on by direct experience. **** I would like to add what Sarah said to Charles d C about life: end quote. ****** Nina. 53180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 3. nilovg Hi Phil, Again, first more intellectual understanding, and when we get used to characteristics, later on "It can be done" as the Buddha said. This reminds me of what I heard this morning. You remember that Kh Sujin says again and again everything is dhamma. One day it will click as you said. op 06-12-2005 00:04 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > If we look into the mirror we can see our own citta at that >> moment and we can find out what kind of citta thinks in that way. 53181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) nilovg Hi James, op 05-12-2005 21:12 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James (now): What? That isn't an answer. You and Nina seem to be > experts at side-stepping difficult, pertinent questions. We should > call it "The DSG Shuffle"! ;-)) -------- What??? Lol. I have my umbrella of right understanding against the rain of ignorance that is flooding every worldling. Nina. 53182 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 8:38am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected icarofranca Hi Ken H ! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think I understand exactly what you are saying, and I agree. The > only disagreement I might have is with regard to the "insight" you > are referring to. I don't think beginners like you or I are likely >to > experience moments of satipatthana (direct insight into the > characteristics of a paramattha dhamma). But we might have moments > of pariyatti (in which a concept of a paramattha dhamma is > experienced with [intellectual] insight). >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Your mention about Satipatthana is a good reminder, Ken H! If I follow threadly Joop's reasoning with other DSG members, so the event he want to fully understand - the union (fusion / communion / Unio Mystica) between conceptual realities and ultimate realities - only can be achieved at a whole in a Satipatthana experience, due its direct insight characteristic. The question that could remain is the fact that Satipatthana is a very difficult task to perform for those that aren't full buddhists...not to mention the Mahasattipatthana! As an assumed bookworm reader, I can conceive that at some set of Suttas and Buddha's teachings Pariyatti can be easily achieved... but perhaps for some people only Satipatthana can remove the final hindrances against direct insight! with metta, Ícaro 53183 From: nina Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:08am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 11, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 53184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation nilovg Cher Sebastien, op 06-12-2005 13:19 schreef Sebastien aka French Dread aka Mesa op s.billard@...: > Well there is nothing special in any center, just trained > practitioners and instructors that could help. I am sure that > awareness can be maintained in any situation, even now as you said. > Though as an ordinary person, I am not very "aware" in my daily > activities, and need therefore some method and training. Now if you > have any method I could follow to increase awareness while working on > computer, cooking, walking in a crowd please let me know :) -------- N: You want a method to increase awareness? This is not possible, awareness can only arise when there are the right conditions. We all have accumulated ignorance and attachment and our defilements cause a lot of confusion and forgetfulness. It is natural that attachment to awareness arises, but it is good to know that this does not help, it is counteractive. Instead of increasing awareness the goal could be: more understanding of our life when working etc. The Buddha said that phenomena such as visible object, sound, etc. appear one at a time through the appropriate doorways. Also when working we could begin to consider this, even intellectually. In that way understanding can grow. Nina. 53185 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:42am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected jwromeijn Hallo Ken, Icaro, all Ken: "Therefore, I am of the opinion that we already have a teaching - in the Pali Canon - that combines ultimate and conceptual realities. But that might not be what you are talking about." Joop: I agree, in fact I already said that. But I was not asking about a 'teaching' but about a 'language', that is a set of symbols with a 'grammar'. Ken; "The only disagreement I might have is with regard to the "insight" you are referring to. I don't think beginners like you or I are likely to experience moments of satipatthana (direct insight into the characteristics of a paramattha dhamma). Joop: It's another topic than the analytic one I want to consider in this thread but it's a very important point. I observe that many (Asian) Theravada texts and many DSG-messages emphasis that everything is very difficult, that we are all beginners (even Nina is saying that many times) When I compare this with the easyness how in the Sutta hearers of the Teachings of the Buddha got streamenterer or even directly arahant, I think: not the time is degenerated but the Theravada opinion-makers made it more and more difficult. The Buddha teached the Middle Way and in this way was more an optimist then those who say we cannot experience moments of satipatthana. And I think too that the Middle Way is correct: between extreme difficult and extreme easy. Icaro: "Your mention about Satipatthana is a good reminder, Ken H! If I follow threadly Joop's reasoning with other DSG members, so the event he want to fully understand - the union (fusion / communion / Unio Mystica) between conceptual realities and ultimate realities - only can be achieved at a whole in a Satipatthana experience, due its direct insight characteristic. The question that could remain is the fact that Satipatthana is a very difficult task to perform for those that aren't full buddhists..." Joop: I started this thread with a straight analytical question, but Icaro you - and a little bit also Ken - are making a struggle of it. Of course I don't want to make an union between conceptual realities and ultimate realities, I'm only asking how those two can occur in one text. And do you really think that the answer to my question is so difficult that only a 'full buddhist' (who is that?) can understand the answer - that till now has not been given? Metta Joop 53186 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 2 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo. Sukin in this post: > Yes, "ONLY WITH PRACTCE HE BECAME AN ARAHAT WITHIN A SHORT > TIME." > We all know the difference between intellectual and direct > understanding. However, even though you agree about patipatti being a > reference to a moment of citta, you say that it can arise only if there is > a decision to do `formal meditation'. I on the other hand, think that it > cannot arise when there is the idea of `self' and control and that `formal > meditation' is one such idea. I think the understanding of > pakatupanissaya paccaya is very important. This would condition an > understanding that dhammas arise by conditions beyond control and has > nothing to do with "conventional" situation or activity. In fact it is the > lack of understanding of this that ideas about a better time, place and > activity arise. And this at the same time reflects the lack of saddha. > > You say that Potthila Thera "thought he attained defilement- eradicating- > path-knowledge", but I don't think any of the `pro-daily life' members of > DSG thinks that he or she has anything much beyond mere pariyatti > understanding. So is this a good comparison? But of course Potthila > Thera did have a much greater accumulated understanding than any of > us, though even with this we can see the danger of misjudgment about > one's achievement based on sanna and ability to explain dhamma. In > fact this should be a warning not so much to those of us who admit to > having only intellectual understanding, but to those `meditators' who > based on subjective experience, misjudge and mislabel these > experiences and therefore wrongly estimate their level of > understanding. But in the case of Potthila Thera it was precisely > because of the great accumulated understanding that he then did not > mistake patipatti for anything but a momentary arising dhamma on > being instructed the 7-year-old samanera. If he did "sit", it may have > been by force of strong `determination' and surely great `understanding', > it wouldn't have been because he saw it as a "path of practice" would > he? > > ============================== > To be continued in part 3. > > Metta, > > Sukin --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, Thanks for your reply. You said, 'a decision to do formal meditation'. But I would not say like that. If I have to say I would say ' a decision to do meditation'. This is determination. This is adhimokkha. Sorry for Paa.li. But I will explain here. Adhimokkha is determination or decision. There cannot be any decision in 'viicikicchaa citta' or 'sceptical doubt'. A decision is a good thing. Venerable Ananda Thera decided to do meditation so that he became an arahat. I did walking meditation the whole day. He decided to do so because he had to be an arahat at the meeting of the First Buddhists' Council. Here, Ananda was already a sotapanna. There was no wrong view in him. But he did decide and he did meditation. He did sit, did walk and di meditate. Finally he became an arahat before the Council started. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53187 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 1:51pm Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected icarofranca Hi Joop!! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Icaro you - and a little bit also Ken - are making a struggle of it. > Of course I don't want to make an union between conceptual realities > and ultimate realities, I'm only asking how those two can occur in > one text. > And do you really think that the answer to my question is so > difficult that only a 'full buddhist' (who is that?) can understand > the answer - that till now has not been given? >------------------------------------------------------------------- I will try don´t misunderstood you, if you promise me don´t be bored with my remarks...but seems to me that the title of this thread is "How to link ultimate and conceptual realities ". But anyway...let´s go on boldly ahead, increasing our mutual understanding!! When I say to you that only true, full buddhists can perform the Satipatthana, it´s due the fact that - by tradition - only full disciples of Buddha, proved up by years and decades of total dedication to Buddha´s doctrine, could be authorized to realize the Satipatthana. There were many discussions about if this rule could be valid nowadays... the satipatthana practicioner must have got some training, the local of practice must be chosen with care, many preparations must be previously arranged out and so on...because this practice leads to a direct insight of the Ultimate Realities! Any doubts you got, Joop, Ken H can clarify this question much better than me... I never tried the Satipatthana! With metta, Ícaro 53188 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 2:02pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhistmedi... Hi, James and Sarah (and all) - Sir Isaac Newton's Law of Inertia is also applicable here at DSG : 'a body in motion continues to move at a constant velocity unless acted upon by an external force'. Here people tend to ask the same question and quite often, the same answer is given. > James: Yes, we must consider all three baskets of the Tipitaka-all > at once- or the meaning of the Buddha's message is lost. > Unfortunately, in this post, you have presented the Vinaya through > the looking glass of the Abhidhamma and have lost its meaning. You > are not balancing the meaning from the suttas, the Abhidhamma, and > the Vinaya- you are weighing more heavily the meaning from the > Abhidhamma. .... S : Without the understanding we gain from the Abhidhamma, we would just read the Vinaya or anything else to be about people and situations and rules, rather than about the Dhamma. ..... Tep: Sarah, may I say that your answer is the same wine in the same bottle. You always say: Everything is a conditioned dhamma, except Nibaana, so there is no people, no self --- just the dhamma. In the ultimate sense, you are absolutely right. Now, please allow me to look at the situation from the perspective of new monks who must strictly follow the Vinaya situations and rules. Do you think from the beginning they already see the pure dhamma, not "people and situations and rules"? More importantly, are they going to be more successful in keeping the Vinaya your way versus strictly adhering to the rules based on the cases that the Buddha strictly described along with the rules for them to follow? Are you suggesting that monks study the Abhidhamma first before Vinaya? We should ask Bhikkhu Bodhi for his view. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James,(Tep & Joop in p.s) > > There were lots of points we agreed on in this thread which I'll leave > aside. Skipping to the more controversial points: > > --- buddhatrue wrote: (snipped) > S: :-)) Ah, but I happen to believe that the truths the Buddha taught in > other parts of the Tipitaka are just as true and valid even when the most conventional language is being used. For example, it's the truth that there are only namas and rupas regardless of whether we happen to be talking about seeing consciousness and visible object or whether we're talking about bhikkhus, bowls and insects. The truths the Buddha discovered are the truths, regardless of the topics being discussed then or now. > .... > >No where in the Vinaya does the Buddha say, "I > > am giving you these instructions but I know that ultimately you are > > all just nama and rupa...so just go about your business and let's > > hope for the best." Such metaphysical posturings are not in keeping > > with the Buddha's pragmatic approach. > .... > S: In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word of the > Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, Suttanta and > Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma. At the same time it stresses that 'the training in higher morality' is 'specifically discussed > in the Vinayapitaka', 'the training in higher thought' in the Suttapitaka > and 'the training in higher wisdom' in the Abhidhammapitaka. > > It's not a question of going about our business and hoping for the best. > It's the Middle Way of not over-exerting with an idea of self and not > slacking with an idea of hoping or wishful thinking. Both are wrong views. > .... > > James: Yes, we must consider all three baskets of the Tipitaka-all > > at once- or the meaning of the Buddha's message is lost. > > Unfortunately, in this post, you have presented the Vinaya through > > the looking glass of the Abhidhamma and have lost its meaning. You are not balancing the meaning from the suttas, the Abhidhamma, and the Vinaya- you are weighing more heavily the meaning from the > > Abhidhamma. > .... (snipped) 53189 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 2:29pm Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 3 htootintnaing Sukin in this post: You've seen my argument above against such an idea. Here I will comment on your question above. Firstly, the aim of studying the Buddha's Teachings should be to understand conditioned realities and not so much to develop more kusala regardless of this. Therefore real development of kusala of other levels, particularly of the paramis, happens only when there is understanding of anatta and conditionality. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There was a case who never read any deep Dhamma. He was just a peasant. Once he received just a meditation method from a simple teacher, who was just a lay person but a disciple of a Theravadan Buddhist monk. At each stage (of passing path) he changed visibly. Finally he entered the Order of Sangha. His behaviour was quite calm. There came Theravadaly-educated monks and asked many questions. The monk, who was the case in question could well answer. Before he did meditation there was no deep understanding of anatta. He just had the ideas that were present in almost all Myanmar people. It was 'things are impermanent, suffering, uncontrollable. He did not know any conditional relation. He was Bhaddanta Kavinda. He did meditation and because of that he progressively improved. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The reference to Samatha and Vipassana developing together is in such cases. It is not about abstractly thinking about these two ideas and then with `self' attempt to manipulate reality. Besides it is because the stress is *rightly* at understanding conditionality, that questions about better situations does not arise. Let me take your examples of situations; a) This is my own situation, in fact conventionally speaking, it is worse. But it reflects only my own akusala, the lack of understanding and other paramis. If we were to consider the moments of vipaka and the fact of the `eight worldly conditions', we will see how momentary and fleeting these are. So the rest of the time it is only our own akusala to be blamed. Do you think that because we realize that we have little understanding and so much akusala, that we should then seek better situations where these wouldn't arise? How about the attachment and wrong view associated with such an idea then? Isn't this more dangerous? And do we really "know" our accumulations to know what is best for us? Or are we having a generalized view about `situations' and applying this to everyone? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I think is that there is unnecessary fear to wrong view which might have the basis on reading. As I said, wrong view is only eradicated at stream-entering. Otherwise however one understand dhamma there are still possibilities or arising of wrong view. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: b) It is good that we are able to be in situations where Dhamma is being taught and are able to discuss. Chanda and panna may drive us to seek out wisdom. But this is not the motive of going to retreats is it? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There was an incident that a group of highly educated people came to a retreat. They were University students. The retreat took for about 60 days. It ran with agenda with exact schedules (which you might hate). These students discussed among them and rehearsed who would what to ask. The meditation teacher answered all their questions. But because of that they (students) had reduced time for practice. The teacher suggested later not to ask questions NOT RELATED TO EXPERIENCES DURING MEDITATION. The students complied. At the end of the retreat they all were happy and thanked the teacher for his kind advice. Actually they understood the difference between theory and practice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As you have stated above, the motive is quite different. It implies and reflects the idea of `self' and `control'. And there is even an inclination to believe that mere chanting can condition understanding or that it works for everyone who takes part. And what is this "sending metta"? ===================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are those 'akusala' that the action of citing that has the basis of 'have been wishing the benefits of others'? This is not mere chanting. Sending metta is just an expression. It is 'wishing beings (that exists everywhere, so the direction is almost always included and it is said as 'sending metta') to have benefits'. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Yes, and without knowing the difference between chanda and lobha, there can be mistaking one for the other. But the real problem seems to be in the assumption that when "thinking about meditating" it is because of chanda and not lobha. ================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Chacles, :-)) There do have differences. Sincereity, flexibility, and many other things are indicators where lobha is always always associated with uddhacca or upset. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: A person for whom the development of sati and panna has reached a high level and so patipatti arises in him quite easily and "naturally"; --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is why meditation is urged to do. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: would he seek out a more suitable place to increase his panna, perhaps so that he can experience pativedha? If this line of thinking is not reasonable in his case, based on the understanding that dhammas cannot be controlled, then why not the same in the case in those of us who have mostly only pariyatti understanding? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thinkers and practitioners are different. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Why should we seek `another place' with such an idea? As I said before, dhammas work their way at a level unrelated to our ideas about better time and place. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Better time and place? Did The Bodhisatta not go to a better place (away from the palace)? He did have an urgency of going to the forest. Otherwise he would have been tied with worldly things. That is why His son was given the name 'Raahulaa'. As for the time as Bodhisatta used all time there is no example. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Well this is not my perspective. And since I mentioned Phil let me take him as example. When I read his posts, I see that his "understanding" is increasing quite fast, or rather, whatever the accumulated understanding, it is beginning to show more and more. I think not only that daily life is where development of sati and panna has to be developed, but it is the attitudes towards day to day experiences which act as reflection of the level of understanding. It is easier to see how much understanding there is in this case, it is hard to see this when someone often brings up Sutta quotes to prove himself. We pro-pariyatti folks are seen as being theoretical, but really I see rather, it is those who so readily bring out Suttas with high sounding concepts, that are in fact `clinging to labels'. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This depend on preference. I mostly did not reveal any references. But because of frequent requests both on-line and off-list then I started to quote some of my writing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Sumedho had no wrong understanding about the concept of Sammasambuddha. The concept of retreat on the other hand is infested with projections rooted in attachment and wrong view, and this can condition more wrong view when it becomes the object of our interest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand. Maybe I am a blunt person. Maybe I myself have big wrong view and I am distributing wrong view. But what I see is that I could see the benefitial effects in those who took the view of going to retreats. They became more and more perfect in their morality where they formerly were drunkards. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================ Sukin: There will be many opportunities to discuss these points again; therefore if you wish it, we can drop this discussion here. Metta, Sukin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am trying to catch the wisdom from you. That is 'the idea of going to reteat is wrong'. With Metta, Htoo Naing > 53190 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 3:04pm Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 1. htootintnaing Sukin: Dear Htoo, Before I go on, I would like to let you know that I just realized during this Saturday discussions with K. Sujin and others, that my understanding of `rites and ritual' has been quite blurry, and that my use of the concept in my discussions with you in the past, was off the mark. I still don't quite understand the exact meaning, however in looking back; I now understand why you would insist on the limited reference of this to being as in the examples of those in the Buddha's times, who behaved like dogs etc. So thanks Htoo, for being patient with my misuse of the term. Actually, there is something else which I think you were right about, but at present I can't recall. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for both these points. ;-) So from now on, I will identify `formal meditation' as being `wrong practice' and leave out any reference to `rite and ritual'. But you can see that other disagreements remain……… --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We are here to discuss Dhamma so that we may see the points in others. Here again I have to check what you mean by 'formal'. This seem a bit late to ask at this time while we have already discussed on so many points. I have questions for you. Q1. Was the Buddha meditate formally daily? Q2. Was the Buddha not meditate formally daily? Q3. What are functions of the Buddha? [I am asking Buddha's kicca] Q4. Do the functions of the Buddha formal? Q5. Do the functions of the Buddha not formal? Q6. What is 'formal' from your point of view? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Because the path towards Stream-Entry consists of moments of both pariyatti and patipatti. Without the former, the latter can never arise. Not having heard the Teachings, still the nimitta of various dhammas appear to give the impression that there is dosa, lobha, mana and so on, only these will be seen as `self'. After hearing the Dhamma, it will be the same, except there can begin to be the understanding that these are just "dhammas" and "anatta". And this is an instance of pariyatti understanding without which the patipatti can never be conditioned to arise. Why? Because otherwise whatever ideas of practice that follows, it will be with `self'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Maybe there would be differences in environment. In Myanmar anicca, dukkha, anatta are daily heard. EVEN 3 years old children know. Is that not enough? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So what you seem to be stating, is that one should ignore any pariyatti understanding of an instance of "wrong view" and instead to go along with the idea to `meditate' because we haven't `eradicated' wrong view? Is this correct understanding? To be able to hear and understand about right/wrong view is equivalent to receiving the greatest of gifts, don't you think? And doesn't development along the path involve `correcting one's views' gradually, and we should be questioning any present understanding associated with ideas such as retreats etc.? ========================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha saasana (teachings) are mainly tasted by ordained monks. Monks keep permanent observation on precepts (227). As for lay people they are almost always busy even in Buddha's time. But lay people try to practise morality (8 precepts) and meditation on fullmoon day, darkmoon day, half-fullmoon day, hald-darkmoon day. As lay people are busy they do not have enough time to do research in Dhamma. So they are benefited from meeting monks. When going to monasery on those 4 days are just one day on each occation, retreats are at least 10 days continuous practice on 8 precepts and doing meditation. I do not see why people are suggesting 'NOT TO GO TO RETREATS'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: I think this a common conclusion. Understand impermanence?! Some would say "all we need is to see the Tilakkhana in all things"!!?? But you know that the Tilakkhana is a characteristic of dhammas and that we need to understand these as nama-rupa, as dhatus, as khandhas etc. before we can really know what anicca, dukkha and anatta really are. Of course along the way of understanding the former even intellectually, a better understanding of the latter is gradually accumulated. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it would be better wait for aeons to accumulate full. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But to ignore the need to understand nama and rupa appearing now, --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Retreat is for that. How many moments do you see naama and ruupa in your daily life? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: and which necessarily starts with an intellectual understanding, is to be making a wrong application of Dhamma. It is to be caught up in an "idea", with the risk of proliferating to being applicable to `concepts' such as that "trees etc. also are anicca". And this may even take us away from the need to understand nama and rupa "now". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Retreaters are practically seeing naama and ruupa. They understand at those moments. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So aren't we then placing ourselves to be fooled by our own experiences during `meditation' (another idea we are duped by)!! This process is similar to ones that seek to experience the D.O. in daily life. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: D.O in daily life. Patthaana in daily life. Abhidhammaa in daily life. Which brand do you like the best? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: This is a similar reasoning to the one I've pointed out before, namely that one `applies dhamma knowledge' to an activity. In my opinion, this is not how development of understanding works and patipatti arises. There is no `self' who can make pariyatti arise nor can anyone apply any theoretical understanding to the moment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does pariyatti arise? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It would be only more `thinking'. Pariyatti arises and falls in an instant, so does patipatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here, you already answer my above question. So you think pariyatti arises and falls? I would take a note in my note book that Sukin told 'pariyatti arises and falls'. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If while listening to and discussing dhamma, pariyatti arises, it falls away instantly. Likewise patipatti too can arise and fall away by conditions beyond control. Therefore the idea of `applying' is wrong. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not too clear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So no matter how much Dhamma is taught in retreats, if the attitude is such that there is a `self' to arrange and order activities, it is of no use. Also the teacher will not be able to escape the interpretation of dhamma, one that is selective and made to tie with the idea of `formal sitting'. So in my opinion, even the Dhamma taught is not pure. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I see. You are saying they are teaching impure Dhamma? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Saddha is of course in direct proportion to the level of understanding. Besides, there is saddha at the level of ordinary kusala, which is found in other religions as well. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Other religions? So they do not have wrong view? But those Buddhists who go to retreats have wrong view? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When one has faith in the Buddha's Teachings, there can be many levels of saddha, and often people confuse and mix these two different aspects of saddha, i.e. of ordinary kusala and of the `right view' of Dhamma. They place their priorities in the wrong place thinking for example, that the reflection of the development along the path lies in the fact that one has less lobha and dosa. And so they are likely to end up following wrong practices, ones that at best suppress any akusala and at worse increases `delusion' about one's own level of development. At other times what often happens is, because the level of understanding is weak, what little saddha is there to condition an interest in the Teachings, often it is followed by all types of akusala including wrong view of self. One thinks immediately about `self' having to study and/or do something in order to gain more understanding. With this as conditioning factor, then most of what the teacher says may not in fact be heard with any saddha, but something else, perhaps a vancaka dhamma, attachment and blind faith? ======================================== To be continued in part 2. Metta, Sukin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But Dhamma behave as it is. Isn't it? Looking forward to more points. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53191 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) gazita2002 Hello Joop, BTW, I like your name. Apologies for the abbreviation, being basically a monolinguist, I have the brain to go along with it and forget that not everyone understands what I write. Bec. stands for because. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Azita, Sarah, all > > Thanks for your answers, Azita. I had one problem with it: the > word "bec." This does not occur in my dictionary english-dutch, that > makes a part of your rich answer uncomprehensible > Azita: "In one sense, they cannot be linked at all bec. one is about > absolute truth and the other about concepts. … > Joop: Of course that's true but my question is: is it possible to > write a text or give or talk without using any concepts? I think that > is not possible: every text is always a mixture. My question then is > about the art of making the best possible mixture. azita: Yes, even the Buddha used conceptual language to explain and teach the Dhamma to others. I imagine that anyone who can teach and clearly convey some aspect of the Dhamma, must themselves have a degree of right understanding - do u agree? The art u speak of, I think comes from this understanding. If one really doesn't know what they are talking about it shows. > > What you said about the Foundation is clear, but I hoped to get more > a sociological than a spiritual answer. Not from a curiosity but > because I hope organisations like the Foundation in Bangkok can start > in other cities too, for example in my country: not persé a Sujin- > organisation but a comparable lay-movement. Have you or other DSG- > participants tried to start one in the citie they live? Azita: can't speak for others, and i've never tried to start one. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 53192 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Vism.XIV,205 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 205. Furthermore, because of the words 'Or feeling should be regarded as gross or subtle in comparison with this or that feeling' (Vbh. 4), among the unprofitable, etc., feeling by hate, too, is gross compared with that accompanied by greed because it burns up its own support, like a fire; and that accompanied by greed is subtle. Also, that accompanied by hate is gross when the hate is constant, and subtle when it is inconstant. And the constant is gross when giving result that lasts for the aeon, while the other is subtle. And of those giving result lasting for the aeon the unprompted is gross, while the other is subtle. But that accompanied by greed is gross when associated with [false] view, while the other is subtle. That also when constant and giving result lasting for the aeon and unprompted is gross, while the others are subtle. And without distinction the unprofitable with much result is gross, while that with little result is subtle. But the profitable with little result is gross, while that with much result is subtle. ********************** 205. apica ta.m ta.m vaa pana vedana.m upaadaayupaadaaya vedanaa o.laarikasukhumaa da.tthabbaati vacanato akusalaadiisupi lobhasahagataaya dosasahagataa vedanaa aggi viya attano nissayadahanato o.laarikaa, lobhasahagataa sukhumaa. dosasahagataapi niyataa o.laarikaa, aniyataa sukhumaa. niyataapi kappa.t.thitikaa o.laarikaa, itaraa sukhumaa. kappa.t.thitikaasupi asa"nkhaarikaa o.laarikaa, itaraa sukhumaa. lobhasahagataa pana di.t.thisampayuttaa o.laarikaa, itaraa sukhumaa. saapi niyataa kappa.t.thitikaa asa"nkhaarikaa o.laarikaa, itaraa sukhumaa. avisesena ca akusalaa bahuvipaakaa o.laarikaa, appavipaakaa sukhumaa. kusalaa pana appavipaakaa o.laarikaa, bahuvipaakaa sukhumaa. 53193 From: connie Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi Larry & Icaro, I don't think I follow you, Larry. Surely, you aren't saying speech and bodily acts aren't preceded by mind! One way of looking at the picture could be that first comes the bull (mind), then the rope (thoughts, words & deeds), then the cart (dukkha & sukha). I hope you don't mind my lumping the dukha and sukha together as the cart/load, but even if sukha is easier to bear, it's still just a lighter shade of dukkha. I think it's the load of dukkha and sukha that you are calling the dhammaa that are essentially feelings. I'm inclined to just say the verses are about first kamma, then vipaka. All basically mental, ok, but not all just feeling. I wasn't able to answer about Commentary, but on Dec. 5th, Dmytro gave some pali on that group and wrote about the manopubbangama part: "Dhammapada-Atthakatha explains that 'dhammaa' is here the mental processes - recognition (sa~n~naa), feeling (vedanaa) and intention (sa"nkhaara)." peace, connie 53194 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) seisen_au Hi Sarah, KenH and All, Sarah: The extraordinary lobha (or tanha) at moments of akusala kamma patha can result in rebirth and other vipaka, but all lobha `adds bricks'and should be known for what it is. I've always understood the 2ndNoble Truth to refer to the origin of suffering as being craving (of all kinds) leading to rebirth etc, `namely the craving for sense- pleasure, the craving for new life and craving for annihilation." The Dispeller (p. 132) has this to say on tanha in the section on Classification of truths: Also there is that (tanha) which gives further becoming and that which does not; there is that which conduces to further becoming and that which does not; and there is that which is the ripening of the essentials of existence when rebirth-linking has been given; [this latter kind] may give further becoming or it may not, it may conduce to further becoming or it may not, yet it gets the name of `producing further becoming'. Steve: I'm not sure why all tanha is given the name `producing further becoming' when some tanha neither gives rise to further becoming nor is conducive to further becoming. I would be interested in hearing more about the tanha that does not conduce to further becoming. As for the tanha that is to be pursued, passages from the Nettippakarana and its commentaries seem to address this point. == There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] and unskilful [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, skilful ta.nhaa is for abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of sa.msaaric activities]. As the text goes on to tell us, quoting a passage from the Majjhima Nikaaya, such skilful ta.nhaa is synonymous with an 'eager desire [pihaa] to enter the peaceful sphere that the ariyas, who having realized it by themselves, dwell in'.[36] Thus, having 'liberation of mind' (ceto-vimutti) due to the 'fading away of [unskilful] desire' (raaga-viraaga) as its object, such ta.nhaa is skilful' (Three cheers for Tanha http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html) == Nettippakarana: Tattha tanha duvidhaa, kusalaapi, akusalaapi There craving is two fold, kusala and akusala. Steve: The kusala tanha which is an eager desire to `enter the peaceful sphere that the ariyas, who having realized it by themselves, dwell in' is similar to the Bhikkhuni Sutta `'I hope that I, too, will -- through the ending of the fermentations -- enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment- release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Steve 53195 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Connie: "I think it's the load of dukkha and sukha that you are calling the dhammaa that are essentially feelings. I'm inclined to just say the verses are about first kamma, then vipaka. All basically mental, ok, but not all just feeling." Hi Connie, Yes, that's how I see it, and I differ from you and the commentary. I think the internal logic of the verses comes first. I read "If, with a mind of wickedness one speaks or acts" as all the citta of the first line which is responsible for the dhammaa of that line. I see a parallel between "dhammaa are preceded by mind" and "dukkha follows wicked speech etc." And, in this case, I see dukkha as being the opposite of sukha, and therefore clearly vedana. If we read that dhammaa of the first line as vedana it fits nicely into dependent arising as both conditioning tanha and as ultimately the result of tanha as dukkha. Of course "dhammaa" is a very vague word, so this is more interpretation than translation. If translating it, "qualities" might work, but probably it would be best to leave it as "dhammas". I see the moral of the verse as being, if you speak with wicked words, pain will follow. Not, if you think wicked thoughts, wicked speech will follow and pain will follow after that. However, words are meant to be interpreted and most of the time there's more than one way to do that, especially when using conventional language. So anything that seems reasonable and in-line with the dhamma is probably fine. Larry 53196 From: limchinkah Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada limchinkah Dear Connie, I have difficulty in comprehending what is meant by rupas that are mind/consciousness produced; kamma produced; heat produced. I can understand rupas that are nutriment produced. Could you kindly give some examples (perhaps relate them to biology/science) plse? For example, could the endorphine be one of those mind/consciouness produced rupas? Thank you. rgds, chinkah connie wrote: Hi, Larry, No, I don't mean to say cittas and the accompanying cetasikas, which we call mind or mental action or thoughts, etc. are speech or bodily actions. Speech and bodily action are rupas that are mind or consciousness produced. Some rupas, like eye-base, are born of kamma, which is, essentially, the cetasika called cetana. Other rupas are heat or nutriment produced, so I meant to say that not all rupas are mind-produced. 53197 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 0:21am Subject: Painting the statues during free time leoaive Hi I am interested in Pali Canon And Sanskrit Suttas. Where all that belong to ancient India. I am finishing now Lotus Sutra. I like it, even if finding some contradictions, like: Dhamma is like sun, that shines on everyone, where there is another talk many times on "good families". So I beleive, that "good families" was altered, where original version was "families" or "Dhamma listening families" or something else. Another contradiction is words: "giving meat, food and drink", where normally it is considered only: "giving food and drink". So I beleive "meat" was added or it should be something else,like fruits or vegetables or whatever is good for health, because Buddha trow away bad food. Another contradiction is: Five precepts and later talk that some philosopher is making meditation. So in that case, "philosopher" should be changed to "Meditator" or "Student of meditation" That is some of observations. The purpuse of this posting is to tell, that I found in Lotus Sutra about: Performers, Musicians and Pourers of Rain. So I applied some paint to the statues I have, but looking at that, sometimes I am thinking: What would be: good paint applications and colors for those:Performers, Musicians and Pourers of Rain? If some one has any Ideas, please let me know. I would really appreciate that. With metta Leo 53198 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 8:25pm Subject: King Sakkas Question ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Why do some beings here attain Nibbana, while other beings do not? Sakka, the king of the 33 gods once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, what is the cause & reason, why some beings here do not attain Nibbana in this very life? And what is the cause and reason, why some beings here do indeed attain Nibbana in this very life? There are, King of the thirty-three Devas, forms experiencable by the eye, sounds experiencable by the ear, smells experiencable by the nose, touches experiencable by the body, and mental phenomena experiencable by the mind, that all are attractive, charming, agreeable, pleasing, enticing, tempting and tantalizing. If a bhikkhu hunts for delight in them, welcomes them, & remains holding on to them, his mind becomes addicted to them and clings to them! Any bhikkhu with a mind dominated by clinging cannot attain Nibbana! This is the cause & reason, King of the Devas, why many & most beings here, do not attain Nibbana in this very life... There are, King of the Devas, forms experiencable by the eye, sounds experiencable by the ear, smells experiencable by the nose, touches experiencable by the body, and mental phenomena experiencable by the mind, that all are attractive, charming, agreeable, pleasing, enticing, tempting and tantalizing. If any bhikkhu avoids seeking any delight in them, nor does he welcome them, nor does he remain holding to them, his mind does not become addicted to them, nor cling to them. A bhikkhu mentally freed of clinging can indeed attain Nibbana! This is the cause and reason, King of the Devas, why some beings here attain Nibbana in this very life.... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 102 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Sakka's Question: 118. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 53199 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Satipatthana Sutta with research and additional Satipatthana Vibhanga Sutta leoaive The Four Applications of Mindfulness - Satipatthana Sutta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- *This version is made, based on view, that original version of Satipatthana was different and it has a background of different Suttas and India studies for 15 years. It is made as close as possible to ancient version. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- At one time the Bhagavo was living among the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, in the suburb side of town, of the Kuru people. There the Bhagavo addressed the Bhikkhu thus: "Bhikkhus," and they replied to him, "Venerable Sir." The Bhagavo spoke as follows: There is the way, Bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the ending of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Applications of Mindfulness. What are those four? Herein, a monk lives contemplating the body as body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mind as mind, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects as mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome in this world, covetousness and grief. I. The Contemplation on the Body 1. Mindfulness on Breathing (in this body) And how does a monk live contemplating on Breathing? Herein, monks, a monk, having gone to the safe forest (No predators close), to the foot of a tree or to an empty quiet place, sits down with his legs crossed, keeps his body erect and his mindfulness alert. With mindfulness he breathes in, with mindfulness he breathes out. Breathing in a long breath, he knows: " Breathing in: is long" (in the body) or "Such is long breathing in"; Breathing out a long breath, he knows, " breathing out: is long" or "Such is long breathing out"; breathing in a short breath, he knows, " breathing in: is short " (in the body) or "Such is short breathing out; breathing out a short breath, he knows, "Breathing out: is short" or "Such is short breathing out". "Comprehending the whole breathing body process, this is: "breathing in," thus he is meditating." Comprehending the whole breathing body process, "this is: breathing out," thus he is meditating. Then comes Calming of activity of the breathing body process, "This is breathing in with calming," thus he is meditating. Then comes Calming of activity of the breathing body process, "This is breathing out with calming," thus he is meditating. Then comes Calmed breathing body process, "This is breathing in, that is calmed," thus he is meditating. Then comes Calmed activity breathing body process, "This is breathing out, that is calmed," thus he is meditating. Just as a skillful turner or turner's apprentice, making a long turn, knows, about: "making a long turn," or making a short turn, knows, about "making a short turn," just so the monk, breathing in a long breath, knows: "Breathing in: is long"; breathing out a long breath, he knows: "Breathing out: is long"; Breathing in a short breath, he knows: "Breathing in: is short"; breathing out a short breath, he knows, "Breathing out: is short." Experiencing the whole breath in the body, He is breathing in, thus he is meditating Experiencing the whole breath in the body, He is breathing out, thus he is meditating Calming the activity of the breath in the body, He is breathing in, thus he is meditating Calming the activity of the breath in the body, He is breathing out, thus he is meditating. Thus he lives contemplating on body internally, or he lives contemplating on body externally (of the breathing process), or he lives contemplating on body internally and externally (of the breathing process) He lives contemplating on origination process in the body, or he lives contemplating on dissolution process in the body, or he lives contemplating on origination-and-dissolution processes in the body. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "This is body" or "This is body in existence" to the extent necessary just for knowledge, remembrance and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Note: The meditating monk, also can focus his attention and mindfulness on nostrils at the point of the nose, where the air is flowing in and out. It is good to have both: attention there and notice the breathing process of lungs. 2. The Postures of the Body And further, monks, a monk knows, when he is going, about "Going posture of the body"; he knows, when he is standing, about "Standing posture of the body"; he knows, when he is sitting, about " Sitting posture of the body"; he knows, when he is lying down, about "Lying down posture of the body"; or just as his body is disposed so he knows about it's posture. Thus he lives contemplating on the body. He lives contemplating on beginning process of the body, or he lives contemplating ending process of the body, or he lives contemplating beginning and ending processes of the body with mindfulness of the posture of the body. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "This is body" or "This is body in existence" to the extent necessary just for knowledge, remembrance and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating on body. <....>