53200 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 6:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cause of Ignorance ??? !!! mr39515 That is why Ignorance is the head of Depandent Origination. Cut the head and the chain ends. And the way to end ignorance is wisdom.... Metta mr39515 --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu > samahita > wrote: > > Friend Nidive wisely asked: > > The way leading to the ceasing of ignorance is > just this Noble > Eightfold Path: That is; > Right view, right motivation, right speech, > right action, right > livelihood, right effort and > right concentration. > > > Thanx for this good and very basic question. > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > <...> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Bhante and Swee Boon, > > May I come in your discussion? Thanks Bhante for > your kind research > and well-explanation and presentation. Just a point. > Did you > accidentally drop 'right mindfulness'? > <....> 53201 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 328- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [u] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] We still consider regret as “my regret”. We regret our akusala and our lack of mindfulness. If we realize that thinking with worry is not helpful it may be a condition to cultivate kusala. When there is forgetfulness of realities we should remember that is a conditioned reality, not self. We should know the characteristics of akusala dhammas which arise as not self. Then there will be less regret. According to the Visuddhimagga (XXII, 71) the anågåmí has eradicated regret completely(1). For him dosa-múla-citta does not arise anymore and thus regret cannot arise either. *** 1) According to the Atthasåliní (Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 384) the sotåpanna has eradicated regret. The sotåpanna has eradicated regret pertaining to coarse defilements, whereas the anågåmí has eradicated regret which also pertains to subtle defilements. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53202 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:28pm Subject: "Sankhara khanda for awareness" - ? (Sarah) philofillet Hi Sarah (or anyone) I haven't yet understood the way "sankhara khanda" is used in the talks sometimes. For example, today I heard you say "if it is consideration of attachment at this moment it can be sankhara khanda for awareness of lobha to arise." I know sankhara has many meanings but I thought sankhara khanda means mental factors/cetasikas. In the above, it sounds as if it is used to mean "condition." Is that because cetana cetasika is a condition, or ... anyways, thanks in advance for any feedback on this. Phil 53203 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Ditthi (wrong view) that can accompany lobha mula citta philofillet Hi Nina Today I was listening to a talk in which A. Sujin mentionned the ditthi that accompanies four of the eight lobha mula cittas. She talks about it as though it is all about sakkaya ditthi (sp?) which I understand to mean identity view, very subtle - but when I first learned about the lobha cittas I thought the wrong view involved wasn't quite so subtle. For example, lobha that motivates one to steal something accompanied by the wrong view that thinks it's alright to do so, no consequences can come, etc. Is it that this ditthi that can accompany lobha has many degrees, from subtle views about identity to more obvious ones like thinking there is no consequence to wrong deeds? Thanks in advance Phil 53204 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 11:49pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 328- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [u] philofillet Hi all > When there is forgetfulness of realities we should remember that > is a conditioned reality, not self. We should know the characteristics of > akusala dhammas which arise as not self. Then there will be less regret. There are dhammas arising constantly that can be known, potentially. And knowing them is the only way to develop the detachment that will liberate us. Something bad we do can be understood - intellectually - as not self and there can be a little bit more detachment from it even while we understand that there will be akusala vipaka from it someday, even rebirth in hell realms etc, who knows. (In any case, the patisandha rebirth citta could come from a past life, so it's futile to think about what kind of results will come from our deeds.) I've said before that I'm surprised when i hear A. Sujin say she doesn't worry about or regret akusala - she doesn't have the kind of akusala I'm dealing with, I have thought. But she's right - the akusala has arisen and fallen away and there's nothing to be done about it by worrying. (And she does talk elsewhere about how the slightest akusala is dangerous...) On the other hand, when we have a moment of regret, couldn't it condition hiri and otappa (shame and moral dread?), those cetasikas which the Buddha called the "guardians of the world", to arise later to steer us clear of the next akusala? What conditions hiri and otappa if there isn't a moment of regret about something we've done? Just listening to the Buddha's teaching? Phil 53205 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: Unfinished work - part 1. sukinderpal Hi James, > So from now on, I will identify `formal meditation' as being `wrong > practice' and leave out any reference to `rite and ritual'. But you can see > that other disagreements remain……… James: This is a very nice apology and appropriate concession. My respect for you has increased dramatically! ;-) ---------------------------- Thanks, but I think rather that you should be admired for this. Firstly that you even read my post, esp. at a time that I am beginning to feel that they must be burdensome to the person I address. But more so because our views about the Dhamma is different, and so your coming out to say something good in the very post that I am critical to your way of thinking, is most admirable. Really! For me to admit to what happened was not so difficult as it involved little hiri and ottappa but more of mana. That is, fear of further embarrassing myself. ;-) So bows to you James! Metta, Sukin 53206 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! sukinderpal Hi Tep (and Robert), > Tep: > The comments reflect that you are very thoughtful -- in the sense of > being full of thoughts. These thoughts are clever, maybe too > clever, 'cause I think they fly over the simple issue of the discussion > between RobertK and me. > [Message # 53010 ] > > > Tep: I'd like to make a note that I have not seen > > >even one sutta that teaches "mundane jhanas". > > >All of the suttas I know, either given by the Buddha or by the > > >Arahants (e.g. Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda), are about > > >the only kind of jhanas as taught by the Buddha; > > > i.e. the jhanas that are "part of the path out of samsara". > > > > My question (or "request") to you is : > > >Can you prove me wrong, please? > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Tep: So, you see, the request was very simple. Sukin: So you are saying that the Buddha taught a kind of jhana which is not mundane? If not, then why do you have a problem with the term "mundane jhana"? Then just say that the two kinds of jhana are different. Why bring in the question of whether the term `mundane jhana" was used in the Suttas. And what according to you *is* the difference between the two kinds of jhana? But of course, I believe that there was only the one kind and not one that is Buddhist and the other non-Buddhist Jhana. As the "one" practice towards enlightenment, the Buddha taught only Satipatthana. Other forms of kusala development, such as dana, sila and samatha bhavana, including jhana, were taught not as a "how to" regardless of satipatthana, but were encouraged to be seen through the eye of wisdom, which is the eightfold path. As descriptions about the development of other Kusala, he taught the usefulness of the Brahma viharas and such, but unlike Satipatthana, these are not "the practice". So in my opinion, making this connection between jhana and the eightfold path is because one does not appreciate the real value and significance of satipatthana. ===================================== > Sukin: > 3. Why should the fact that "mundane jhana" is not mentioned by word > prove that the reference is then to supramundane? Clearly the object of > citta mentioned in either of the jhana levels is *not* nibbana? So how > can it be anything but mundane? > > Tep: The fact is that there is only one kind of jhanas as taught by the > Buddha. The four arupa jhanas define the eighth path factor (samma- > samadhi). Period. It is plain and simple. The object of citta is not > mentioned in the definition of samma-samadhi. Sukin: Not knowing the object of jhana, then how do you expect to develop it?! ================================== Tep: > So why should we bother? > If the Buddha did not talk about it, then why worry about those > concepts you have read from the Abhidhamma books? Sukin: What are you suggesting here? To ignore the commentaries and Abhidhamma and just go along with whatever impression I get from reading any Sutta or to believe your interpretation? What is the significance of the Buddha's not mentioning the object of Jhana? Can you elaborate on this? ============================== > Sukin: > 4. Also I think that we should understand that "Right Concentration" > does not have to be a reference to the Right Concentration of the > Eightfold path. Obviously the concentration arising with akusala > is "wrong" and that which arises with kusala cittas cannot be > considered so. So indeed the concentration arising with jhana being > the development of kusala of the highest level (except vipassana) > must be considered "Right" Concentration and encouraged to be > developed. > > Tep: Obviouly the concentration arising with the first jhana through the > fourth jhana is kusala because it is said so at the very beginning as > follows: "There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities enters & remains in the > first jhana ..." [See AN IV.41, AN IX.35, AN IX.43, and DN 22]. Therefore, > it is clear that this kind of concentration is "right" like you said above. It > is also right in the sense of the "Right Concentration of the Eightfold > path" because DN 22 and SN XLV.8 : Magga-vibhanga Sutta state > exactly that. Sukin: I am actually waiting for Robert to give his comment on this, as I have said here on the list that I rely on not only the commentaries, but also the sub and sub-sub commentaries by Nina and others. However, I have one important question to ask before I can make any comment on the little I gather from the two Suttas. Do you Tep, see the Eightfold Path as separate practices and/or things to do, unlike some of us who see it as description of dhammas accompanying each other performing their individual functions at the moment of enlightenment? If so, then I can understand why you insist on for example, having a separate practice of Jhana as a means to development along the path. If this is the case, then perhaps we should be discussing whether your understanding of the 8FP is correct or mine. Else other discussion will not be as fruitful and be time consuming. Do you agree? Metta, Sukin 53207 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 1:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 3. philofillet Hi (all and) Nina (I almost just wrote "Hi Naomi" - I think I am writing to you too much! :) I heard something that made me think of this thread, how I wrote yesterday that I wondered if we can really say "if we look into the mirror we can see our own citta at that moment and we can find out what kind of citta thinks in that way" as A. Sujin says below. What I heard was from a talk in India last year, people had had sleepless nights, people were sick, and Sarah talked about how this can lead to telling a lot of stories. A. Sujin said that at such times she stresses knowing the characteristic of the present reality, for when there is thinking about tonight or tomorrow or worrying about it obviously there is too much interest in self. But I am a bit surprised that she would say that she stresses knowing the characteristic of the reality at such times, because it sounds like a remedy approach. Conditioned by hearing this talk, I have at times found myself thinking "know the present reality" when I catch myself lost in worry etc. But obviously that is just clinging to knowing realities as a way of lessening my discomfort, a kind of intellectual remedy. Certainly true that remembering Abhidhamma helps at such times, but I wonder if there isn't a danger that I can develop a dependence on shallow intellectual understanding of paramattha dhammas as a way of feeling better. Maybe I'm thinking of myself because I have very strong lobha tendencies. Do you know the way we reach out to turn the bath tap to have a little more hot water? My whole day is like that!!! So I am wary of "stressing" knowing realities when we are caught up in worrying, complaining, self-pitying etc. I have my remedies (these days a kind of pseudo-metta ripple effect) but when it comes to paramattha dhammas I hope any degree of understanding of them that arises doesn't function as a comforter. No need to reply, Nina. Just sharing something I was thinking about. Phil >> If we look into the mirror we can see our own citta at that > >> moment and we can find out what kind of citta thinks in that way. > > 53208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 3. nilovg Hi Phil, op 07-12-2005 10:44 schreef Phil op philco777@...: if we can really say "if we look into the > mirror we can see our own citta at that moment and we can find out > what kind of citta thinks in that way" as A. Sujin says below. > > > What I heard was from a talk in India last year, people had had > sleepless nights, people were sick, and Sarah talked about how this > can lead to telling a lot of stories. A. Sujin said that at such > times she stresses knowing the characteristic of the present > reality, for when there is thinking about tonight or tomorrow or > worrying about it obviously there is too much interest in self. ------ N: Yes I can understand that some people become frustrated when always hearing the same answer: understanding, understanding. But still, it is the answer, we should think again of Nandaka who repeated the same sermon. And about what you said, that something clicks after a thousand times of hearing the Dhamma. We can look into the mirror of Dhamma and understand the citta arising at this moment. Yes, understanding, understanding. Is this not emphasized in all the suttas? Understanding of what appears through the senses and the mind-door? Is there anything else? Is there another "all", besides this "all"? In India it happens that we are at times so sick (vomiting), or have severe pains in the stomach, or a fever, due to water, food or climate. Sarah mentioned it (suffering all night) and I have been through it before. And how many times I have seen Pinna sitting with closed eyes under the Bodhi tree or in a temple, feeling very sick but still seeing the benefit of hearing Dhamma, listening to all Kh Sujin's talks at the holy places. I attended a session with closed eyes to contain my sick feeling. And still, hearing Dhamma was uplifting, and I felt, yes, Dhamma is the best medicine. This was just my experience, and, believe me, I did not look for a medicine, but I thought to come out of bed and just attend the session since Kh. Sujin was so kind to us all, giving her time and energy. She also feels sick, mostly from a severe cold, and exhausted at times but does not show it. She never, never thinks of herself. ---------- Ph: But I am a bit surprised that she would say that she stresses > knowing the characteristic of the reality at such times, because it > sounds like a remedy approach. ------- N: There is only the dhamma of this moment, nothing else, this is the truth. Nobody can do anything. When feeling sick, that is the dhamma at this moment. There are only dhammas, not me who feels sick. We cling to our feeling, we are commiserating with ourselves, and also that is a dhamma. We cannot escape nama and rupa, so long as we are living in this world. ------ Some people want to have specific objects to help them to have more mindfulness, they go to quiet places. But seeing here is the same as seeing somewhere else. I heard the following this morning: **** Nina. 53209 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 2:41am Subject: Directed and Undirected Meditation [Was: How to link ultimate and kenhowardau Hi Joop, Icaro and all, ---------------------- J: > I observe that many (Asian) Theravada texts and many DSG-messages emphasis that everything is very difficult, that we are all beginners (even Nina is saying that many times) > ----------------------- Yes, but what is this 'being' we call a beginner? It is nothing more than a momentary collection of namas and rupas. The same could be said for the stream-winner or for the arahant. At no stage is there any self that finds the Path difficult or easy or wants speedy progress along it. So what does it matter how difficult it is? :-) ----------------------------------------------------- J: > When I compare this with the easyness how in the Sutta hearers of the Teachings of the Buddha got streamenterer or even directly arahant, I think: not the time is degenerated but the Theravada opinion-makers made it more and more difficult. The Buddha teached the Middle Way and in this way was more an optimist then those who say we cannot experience moments of satipatthana. And I think too that the Middle Way is correct: between extreme difficult and extreme easy. ------------------------------------------------------ The question can be easily settled by comparing the namas and rupas we conventionally call "uninstructed worldling" with the namas and rupas we conventionally call "stream winner." They are poles apart! For one thing, the former are capable of akusala kamma patha (of body, speech or mind), whereas the latter are incapable. I know that many self-taught Western Buddhists believe they automatically become Sotapanna just by accepting the basic tenets of Buddhism - I was the same, at first. I think it is a hangover from Christianity where people believed they were saved (or born again) just because they uttered the words, "I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour." However, stream entry is a moment in which nibbana is experienced by a number of conditioned dhammas, and the conditions required for it are extremely rare and exceptional. ------------------------------- Joop in an earlier post: > A short remark about our original discussion and your quote above, Ken. In his ebook 'Essentials of Insight Meditation' Ven. Sujiva describes clear that in samatha meditation the object of meditation is a concept; and in vipassana meditation (as I TRY to practice it) the objects (plural!) are ultimate realities: arising and falling away. -------------------------------- I had a look at the extract, and I doubt that the Venerable was remembering his Abhidhamma. According to the Sabba Sutta,* for example, the entire world is a few namas and rupas momentarily arising at one of the six doorways. Therefore, meditation (samatha or vipassana), if it exists at all, does so in just one fleeting moment. When you say you try to practice vipassana meditation you are not talking about one fleeting moment, are you? You are talking about something that lies outside the loka. This is a common mistake: we worldlings believe we can practice samatha or vipassana just as we believe we can play golf or go to the pictures etc. (Golf, pictures and formal meditation are illusory: they are not included in the loka.) I think we should always go back to the question put to the Buddha in the Loka Sutta (and the Sabba Sutta and others): "'The world, the world' it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply?" (end quote) The important thing is to leave the question at that. Don't go on with, "Will I be reborn; will I not be reborn? Will I become a Stream-winner? How long will it take?" :-) Ken H Sabba Sutta: " "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, . This, monks, is called the All. 1 Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." 53210 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 3:09am Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 3. philofillet Hi Nina > ------ > N: Yes I can understand that some people become frustrated when always > hearing the same answer: understanding, understanding. But still, it is the > answer, we should think again of Nandaka who repeated the same sermon. And > about what you said, that something clicks after a thousand times of hearing > the Dhamma. I don't think I feel frustrated by this - au contraire, it could be that I am pacified by it and take too much contentment from intellectual understanding. The pleasure I get when I hear A. Sujin talking about paramattha dhammas hints at too much clinging to it. But then something clicks and the shallowness of the intellectual understanding is revealed for a moment. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that understanding present realities at times of dis-ease is the only way to be liberated. But for people with strong lobha tendencies it can just be more clinging. But that's conditioned too. Nothing to do but keep listening and reading and reflecting and discussing and see what happens. >We can look into the mirror of Dhamma and understand the citta > arising at this moment. Yes, understanding, understanding. Is this not > emphasized in all the suttas? Understanding of what appears through the > senses and the mind-door? Is there anything else? Is there another "all", > besides this "all"? Nothing else. I read the subha sutta (SN 25:23?) today. If anyone says there is anything other than "the all" of the sense bases, they have got it wrong, according to the Buddha. > > In India it happens that we are at times so sick (vomiting), or have severe > pains in the stomach, or a fever, due to water, food or climate. Sarah > mentioned it (suffering all night) and I have been through it before. And > how many times I have seen Pinna sitting with closed eyes under the Bodhi > tree or in a temple, feeling very sick but still seeing the benefit of > hearing Dhamma, listening to all Kh Sujin's talks at the holy places. > I attended a session with closed eyes to contain my sick feeling. And still, > hearing Dhamma was uplifting, and I felt, yes, Dhamma is the best medicine. > This was just my experience, and, believe me, I did not look for a medicine, > but I thought to come out of bed and just attend the session since Kh. Sujin > was so kind to us all, giving her time and energy. I wish I could come to hear A. Sujin in February, but it looks as if there will only be the trip to Canada to see my mother. Nina, what you've written here makes me reconsider what I wrote above about feeling that the pleasure I get from hearing A. Sujin talk must be akusala, must be clinging. The Dhamma itself is a remedy, I needn't assume that if it always makes me feel better that it must be suspect. And it always makes me feel better. Well, that could be suspect. Doesn't matter anyways, just a story about Phil, not paramattha dhammas that are understood. Thanks Nina. We're very fortunate to be able to read these posts from you. Phil 53211 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 3:28am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected jwromeijn Hallo Icaro Thanks; partly there was a misunderstanding due to my clumsy use of the english language. I was not bored with what you said, only surprised: I have a great talent to get surprised. What do you mean when saying "I never tried the Satipatthana!" I think you talk about I a la Mahasi call vipassana- or insight- meditation? Icaro: "When I say to you that only true, full buddhists can perform the Satipatthana, it´s due the fact that - by tradition - only full disciples of Buddha, proved up by years and decades of total dedication to Buddha´s doctrine, could be authorized to realize the Satipatthana. There were many discussions about if this rule could be valid nowadays... the satipatthana practicioner must have got some training, the local of practice must be chosen with care, many preparations must be previously arranged out and so on...because this practice leads to a direct insight of the Ultimate Realities! Joop: I did not know this 'rule' and the discussion about it. Strange that satipatthana is used as a kind of secret wisdom: I'm sure the Buddha did not want that, there nothing about this rule in the Sutta. It's 'tradition' and I think this not good. Metta Joop 53212 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James and Sarah (and all) - > ... Hallo Tep, Sarah (and James if he is interested) Tep: "Now, please allow me to look at the situation from the perspective of new monks who must strictly follow the Vinaya situations and rules. Do you think from the beginning they already see the pure dhamma, not "people and situations and rules"? More importantly, are they going to be more successful in keeping the Vinaya your way versus strictly adhering to the rules based on the cases that the Buddha strictly described along with the rules for them to follow? Are you suggesting that monks study the Abhidhamma first before Vinaya?" That very wisely said, Tep, but perhaps I may add two questions to it from the perspective of a 'layperson'. What has a layperson (most DSG-contributors, except Ven. S) to do with the Vinaya, and especially with the rules of it? (I think: nothing, apart of curiosity about the daily life of monks) If 'we' (laypersons) have studied Abhidhamma (from the Abhidhamma- pitaka or the Sutta-pitaka), is there any reason to study the Vinaya? (I know there are some Discourses that for a reason I do not understand are part of the Vinaya-pitaka but in my logic belong to the Sutta-pitaka) Metta Joop 53213 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 4:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 586 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 Noble Truths. The first truth is 'suffering'. Suffering has to be known as suffering with fully developed direct knowledge and this knowledge is the truth of Noble Ones. The second truth is the cause of the suffering. All sufferings have the cause. This cause has to be known and eradicated with fully developed direct knowledge. This removing knowledge of the cause of suffering is 2nd truth of Noble Ones. The third truth is the complete cessation of the suffering. All sufferings have to cease complete when there are no more source for fire of suffering. This cessation of the cause of suffering has to be known by fully developed direct knowledge. This knowledge is 3rd truth of Noble Ones. The 4th truth is the path leading to cessation of the suffering. Again this path has to be fully developed and when fully developed the individual concern directly understand ssuffering, removes the cause, sees the cessation. This Path which is known as Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) has 8 limbs. The first two limbs have been discussed in the previous post. There are three more right path-factors or sammaa-magga`ngas known as siila- magga1nga or path-factors of morality and three more path-factors known as samaadhi-magga`nga or path-factors of concentration. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53214 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 4:46am Subject: How to link ultimate and conceptual realities (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected icarofranca Hi Joop! >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks; partly there was a misunderstanding due to my clumsy use of > the english language. I was not bored with what you said, only > surprised: I have a great talent to get surprised. > > What do you mean when saying "I never tried the Satipatthana!" I > think you talk about I a la Mahasi call vipassana- or insight- > meditation? >------------------------------------------------------------------- Well,as a matter of fact all meditation techniques exist to improve your own insight...but, of all buddhistic meditation lore, the Satipatthana is one of the more demanding practices! A clear cut way to direct insight like the Satipatthana is a valuable treasure only if you keep your mind running in right tracks - considering all events like a sucession of nama and rupa and keeping your heart pure and calm. >------------------------------------------------------------------ > Joop: I did not know this 'rule' and the discussion about it. > Strange that satipatthana is used as a kind of secret wisdom: I'm > sure the Buddha did not want that, there nothing about this rule in > the Sutta. It's 'tradition' and I think this not good. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop, the Satipatthana is not a secret wisdom - it is related at full in the Satipatthana Sutta, so as the anapannasati meditation in the Anapannasati Sutta and so on. If the anapannasati meditation can has got a relaxing efect in your mind, the Satipatthana will demand you at the extremes of mind control mastering. Think about the Four Noble Truths: buddha doesn't want anybody, any living being to face suffering...but suffering (dukkha) is the basis of conditioned existence! Without Panna even the easiest Vipassana may become a full manifestation of boredom... when I first entered the DSG I thought that only real buddhistic monks, real bhikkhus, could really perform the Satipatthana: it's not a rule so strict, but the beginner must step threadly in these path! []s Ícaro 53215 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 5:11am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation [Was: How to link ultimate and jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ... Hallo Ken, all That's a sincere message of you. I agree with some parts of it; think it's better not to discuss about 'formal' meditation again; and have some remarks. Ken: " The question can be easily settled by comparing the namas and rupas we conventionally call "uninstructed worldling" with the namas and rupas we conventionally call "stream winner." They are poles apart! For one thing, the former are capable of akusala kamma patha (of body, speech or mind), whereas the latter are incapable." Joop: Yes, but in my idea of gradual awakening it are not 'two poles apart' but two poles between which a line forms a scale; and we are on that scale, some near the first pole and some near the second. =========================================== Ken: "I know that many self-taught Western Buddhists believe they automatically become Sotapanna just by accepting the basic tenets of Buddhism - I was the same, at first. I think it is a hangover from Christianity where people believed they were saved (or born again) just because they uttered the words, "I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour." However, stream entry is a moment in which nibbana is experienced by a number of conditioned dhammas, and the conditions required for it are extremely rare and exceptional." Joop: I don't know if it's a hangover of Christianity, I think it has more to do with the hurry of modern life with aspiring to have quick results. To quick, I agree, but "extremely rare and exceptional" is the other extreme and I think the Middle Way is the best. ============================================= Ken: "The important thing is to leave the question at that. Don't go on with, "Will I be reborn; will I not be reborn? Will I become a Stream-winner? How long will it take?" :-) Joop: That's right. I do not want to know where in the scale between the two poles quoted above "I" am situated. Metta Joop 53216 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. nilovg Hi Tep, Lodewijk said that you made a good point as to the Vinaya. op 06-12-2005 23:02 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Now, please allow me to look at the situation from the perspective of > new monks who must strictly follow the Vinaya situations and rules. ...(snipped) Are you suggesting that monks study the Abhidhamma first > before Vinaya? --------- N: May I quote a sutta first? We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Ch III, § 81, a Number of Bhikkhus, translated by Ven. Bodhi) that a number of bhikkhus told the Buddha that sectarians asked them what the purpose of the holy life lived under the ascetic Gotama was. They asked whether they had answered rightly in saying that this was for the full understanding of suffering, dukkha. The Buddha said that this was right, but if they would ask what that suffering was they should answer thus: ³The eye, friends, is suffering... Forms [N: ruupas, visible objects] are suffering... Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition... that too is suffering... the mind is suffering... Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition...that too is suffering: it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. This, friends, is that suffering for the full understanding of which the holy is lived under the Blessed One.² The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doors. Nowadays the situation has changed and the sasana is declining. We were so glad to have visited Thai Temples in India where the abbots listened to Acharn Sujin and saw the value of developing understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doors. This is the way leading to the eradication of wrong view about them. Both monks and laypeople alike have wrong view but there is a way to eradicate it! Near Chiengmai (Wat Dong devi) there was an Abbot who understood very well, but he passed away. It is difficult to find a Temple with good Vinaya and understanding of satipatthana. How difficult to keep the rules when you do not understand your own citta. Observing the Vinaya should come from within, from the heart. Then you see the Buddha's wisdom and do not consider them as rules imposed from outside. But meanwhile we should be glad that the Sangha still exists, for the preservation of the Teachings. The objects of understanding are nearer than you think, they are right in front. The place where you can go is here, the time is now. The beginning of the development is simpler than you would think. ___ T: Sarah, may I say that your answer is the same wine in the same > bottle ------- Lodewijk, who is a wine-lover:< So long as it is good wine I do not mind drinking the same wine from the same bottle. In other words, right understanding is absolutely crucial and this cannot be repeated often enough.> Lodewijk and Nina. 53217 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 8:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing Dear Nina, Lodewijk, Tep, Sarah and all, Just butting in not to give any comment but to praise the exchange of good questions and answers. Vinaya is there even though The Budhha had not been laid down as vinaya. Some Sammaasambuddhas even did not need to prescribe vinaya as all monks in his presence were all very pure. When there is no prescribed vinaya this does not mean there is no vinaya. Vinaya is there all the time even though there is no beings left. Vinaya is linked with Dhamma. If there is understanding of Dhamma then vinaya will be kept on its own. The Buddha had to prescribe vinaya because of inappropriately behaving monks (all puthujanas). Once a monk was approached by his own parents and he was asked for to leave offspring as his gene and the monk was persuaded that it was noble to fulfil parents' wish and there would not be any offence. The monk after consideration (with his puthujanaly wisdom) and then he had sex with ex-wife of his own who was brought up by his parent. The matter was brought up to the Buddha's ears. And then vinaya had to be laid out to prevent unbeneficial occurences. If Dhamma is known would he have sex when he was in the Order of Sangha and under the Supervision of The Buddha. Was there understanding when he had sex with his ex-wife? Does vinaya needed to be written for those who know Dhamma with experiencial wisdom? Vinaya and Dhamma. This is what The Buddha told Venerable Ananda in his last minutes. 'Ananda. Do not be worry on Master being gone. Dhamma and Vinaya will be Master when The Master is gone'. Now The Master had long been gone. But there are Dhamma and Vinaya. Who keep this? Who destroy this? The Buddha did not want anything added. The Buddha did not want anything omitted. If Dhamma is understood, Vinaya will be kept pure. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Lodewijk said that you made a good point as to the Vinaya. > op 06-12-2005 23:02 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Now, please allow me to look at the situation from the perspective of > > new monks who must strictly follow the Vinaya situations and rules. > ...(snipped) Are you suggesting that monks study the Abhidhamma first > > before Vinaya? > --------- > N: May I quote a sutta first? > We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Ch III, § 81, a Number of Bhikkhus, > translated by Ven. Bodhi) that a number of bhikkhus told the Buddha that > sectarians asked them what the purpose of the holy life lived under the > ascetic Gotama was. They asked whether they had answered rightly in saying > that this was for the full understanding of suffering, dukkha. The Buddha > said that this was right, but if they would ask what that suffering was they > should answer thus: > > ³The eye, friends, is suffering... Forms [N: ruupas, visible objects] are > suffering... Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition... that > too is suffering... the mind is suffering... Whatever feeling arises with > mind-contact as condition...that too is suffering: it is for the full > understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. > This, friends, is that suffering for the full understanding of which the > holy is lived under the Blessed One.² > > The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of dhammas as they > appear one at a time through the six doors. > Nowadays the situation has changed and the sasana is declining. We were so > glad to have visited Thai Temples in India where the abbots listened to > Acharn Sujin and saw the value of developing understanding of dhammas as > they appear one at a time through the six doors. > This is the way leading to the eradication of wrong view about them. Both > monks and laypeople alike have wrong view but there is a way to eradicate > it! > > Near Chiengmai (Wat Dong devi) there was an Abbot who understood very well, > but he passed away. > It is difficult to find a Temple with good Vinaya and understanding of > satipatthana. How difficult to keep the rules when you do not understand > your own citta. Observing the Vinaya should come from within, from the > heart. Then you see the Buddha's wisdom and do not consider them as rules > imposed from outside. But meanwhile we should be glad that the Sangha still > exists, for the preservation of the Teachings. > > The objects of understanding are nearer than you think, they are right in > front. The place where you can go is here, the time is now. The beginning of > the development is simpler than you would think. > ___ > > T: Sarah, may I say that your answer is the same wine in the same > > bottle > ------- > Lodewijk, who is a wine-lover:< So long as it is good wine I do not mind > drinking the same wine from the same bottle. In other words, right > understanding is absolutely crucial and this cannot be repeated often > enough.> > > Lodewijk and Nina. > 53218 From: connie Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Dear Chinkah, I don't know about endorphine. Sukha would be due to kusala cittaja rupa. The Great Scientist said "namarupa paccaya salayatana". The salayatana are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind 'sense'. Kammajarupa includes the sense bases, gender characteristics and the heart base. These are produced from 25 types of kamma: 12 akusala cetana, 8 kamavacara kusala cetana & 5 rupavacara kusala cetana. Sounds of a river or humming electricity or tires going down the road arise from the heat element. Plants, mountains, these kinds of non-living things are produced from the heat element. The rupas of a human or animal corpse are from the heat element. At death, there is no more effect of kamma to produce the kammaja rupa including the life "force" or faculty, jivita indriya. The corpse does not get up to talk and laugh (earth element produced by mind) or run around (air element produced by mind) because there is no cittaja rupa including the two 'intimations' (vaci and kaya vinnatti). It is too complicated for me to help much beyond what I've just said, sorry. You can find more in Nina's SURVEY OF PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS. peace, connie 53219 From: connie Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi Larry, Lately, my thoughts keep returning to the adventious defilement and pure mind questions, so I still want to have the preceding mind be bhavanga citta, but yes, would say your interpretation "seems reasonable and in-line with the dhamma" as far as my understanding goes, too. Not to put the cart before the bull, but we could say it's just iteration; the outcome of one operation becomes the input for the other and it either goes on infinitely (samsara) or reduces to zero (nibbana). Aaaargh... Mandelbrot Buddhism: "In this very one fathom-long body I do declare the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the world". But what am I feeling now? best wishes, connie 53220 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 9:27am Subject: Re: Dhammapada icarofranca Hi Connie and Chinkah Respectfully butting in... >----------------------------------------------------------------- >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie >wrote: > > > Dear Chinkah, > > I don't know about endorphine. Sukha would be due to kusala cittaja rupa. > > The Great Scientist said "namarupa paccaya salayatana". The >salayatana > are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind 'sense'. Kammajarupa >includes > the sense bases, gender characteristics and the heart base. These >are > produced from 25 types of kamma: 12 akusala cetana, 8 kamavacara >kusala > cetana & 5 rupavacara kusala cetana. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- This reminds me the time I lived on Goteborg, Sweden. It was the first time I lived alone in a foreign land, only with my books and my thoughts... I was beginning to read the Dhammasangani and I was enchanted by its way concise and direct to expound Dhamma. You get a list of categories (praedicamenta, in latin) which begins with eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, their respective objects, reaching a main point at the Jivita Indriya, where the interplay between these ideas reaches out newer combination of Dhammas. Adding to it the 24 Paccayas ( which I only came to know when I've returned to Brazil and begun to read the Patthanapali) you end with the very complete Abhidhamma system of ideas! Wonderful! But...what's Rupa ??? When I used to talk with pretty swedish girls, she always answered "Me Liga!!! Me Liga!!!" which in Swedish means "it's possible!". Hmmm...that's a very interesting idea by all means... When I asked some swedish university teacher for useful hints, they always answered "Ummm... Me liga! Ummm... Me Liga!", that's means "It's impossible!"...argh!!! But many interested readers I demanded some hint about Rupa answered in Chorus: "Rupa IS matter". I prefer don't make any jugdements about this "matter" without more studies about it... >------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sounds of a river or humming electricity or tires going down the road > arise from the heat element. Plants, mountains, these kinds of non- living > things are produced from the heat element. The rupas of a human or animal > corpse are from the heat element. At death, there is no more effect of > kamma to produce the kammaja rupa including the life "force" or faculty, > jivita indriya. The corpse does not get up to talk and laugh (earth > element produced by mind) or run around (air element produced by mind) > because there is no cittaja rupa including the two 'intimations' (vaci and > kaya vinnatti). > > It is too complicated for me to help much beyond what I've just said, > sorry. You can find more in Nina's SURVEY OF PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- I am looking forward our dear Sukinderpal to send by mail my copy of this book!!! With metta, []s Ícaro 53221 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 9:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada htootintnaing Dear Chinka, Connie and all, May I butt in. I am Htoo Naing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, limchinkah wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Chinka wrote: Dear Connie, I have difficulty in comprehending what is meant by rupas that are mind/consciousness produced; kamma produced; heat produced. I can understand rupas that are nutriment produced. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Chinka. There are ruupas. They are non-naama. Ruupas are caused by consciousness, kamma, heat, and nutriment. You said that you understand nutriment-produced ruupas, which is good. Even nutriment- produced ruupas may sometimes be very difficult to understand. Example nutriment produced ruupa; Vi~n~naana-aharaja ruupa or consciousness-nutriment-produced ruupa exists in the corpse for further 50 submoments after disappearance of dying-consciousness. Other 3 ruupas are 1. consciousness-produced ruupas They are 8 inseparable ruupas, space, sound, body-gesture, and speech. Among these gesture and speech are produced only by consciousness. When there is no consciousness there will not be body- gesture and speech. Examples; sound produced by sound box through electricity are life-less and they are just sound and they are not voice. Sound on the otherhand can be produced by consciousness and heat. 2. kamma-produced ruupas There are 18 ruupas that are produced by kamma. Among them 9 ruupas are produced only by kamma. They are 1. eye, 2. ear, 3. nose, 4. tongue, 5. body, 6. heart-base, 7. life- force, 8. maleness, and 9. femaleness. 3. heat-produced ruupa Connie has explained you. There are 13 ruupas that are produced by heat. They are 8 inseparable ruupas, space, sound, 3 physical- qualities of ruupa that is lightness, mouldability, and workability. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Chinka: Could you kindly give some examples (perhaps relate them to biology/science) plse? For example, could the endorphine be one of those mind/consciouness produced rupas? Thank you. rgds, chinkah --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Those 28 ruupas are ultimate realities. Those cittas of 89 are all ultimate realities. Those 52 mental factors are ultimate realities. There isn't any endorphin as an ultimate reality. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53222 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 10:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada icarofranca Hi Htoo!!! Your explanation is perfect as usual! It ends many doubts about the nature of Rupa: curiosly many poeple versed in Buddhism I've known in these years guaranteed to me that Rupa is matter,forgetting - or with no conscience about it - that there are Rupas produced by the own conscience! With Metta Ícaro >-------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Chinka. There are ruupas. They are non-naama. Ruupas are >caused > by consciousness, kamma, heat, and nutriment. You said that you > understand nutriment-produced ruupas, which is good. Even nutriment- > produced ruupas may sometimes be very difficult to understand. > > Example nutriment produced ruupa; > > Vi~n~naana-aharaja ruupa or consciousness-nutriment-produced ruupa > exists in the corpse for further 50 submoments after disappearance > of dying-consciousness. > > Other 3 ruupas are > > 1. consciousness-produced ruupas > > They are 8 inseparable ruupas, space, sound, body-gesture, and > speech. Among these gesture and speech are produced only by > consciousness. When there is no consciousness there will not be body- > gesture and speech. Examples; sound produced by sound box through > electricity are life-less and they are just sound and they are not > voice. > > Sound on the otherhand can be produced by consciousness and heat. > > 2. kamma-produced ruupas > > There are 18 ruupas that are produced by kamma. Among them 9 ruupas > are produced only by kamma. They are > > 1. eye, 2. ear, 3. nose, 4. tongue, 5. body, 6. heart-base, 7. life- > force, 8. maleness, and 9. femaleness. > > 3. heat-produced ruupa > > Connie has explained you. There are 13 ruupas that are produced by > heat. They are 8 inseparable ruupas, space, sound, 3 physical- > qualities of ruupa that is lightness, mouldability, and workability. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Chinka: > > Could you kindly give some examples (perhaps relate them to > biology/science) plse? For example, could the endorphine be one of > those mind/consciouness produced rupas? > > Thank you. > rgds, > chinkah > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Htoo: > > Those 28 ruupas are ultimate realities. Those cittas of 89 are all > ultimate realities. Those 52 mental factors are ultimate realities. > There isn't any endorphin as an ultimate reality. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 53223 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 10:16am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, James and Sarah (and all) - > > > ... > Hallo Tep, Sarah (and James if he is interested) Yes, I am still interested. I may drop out for a bit and be quiet now and then but that is because my meditation practice is increasing lately. I am discovering more about myself on and off the cushion than ever before!! And, as a consequence, to tell the truth, I find these DSG conversations more and more superficial and pointless...but I still care so much about the speakers! So, yes, I am still interested. Don't worry about that. Metta, James 53224 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 10:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > op 05-12-2005 21:12 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > James (now): What? That isn't an answer. You and Nina seem to be > > experts at side-stepping difficult, pertinent questions. We should > > call it "The DSG Shuffle"! ;-)) > -------- > What??? Lol. I have my umbrella of right understanding against the rain of > ignorance that is flooding every worldling. Hmmm...what an interesting and grandiose metaphor- not your usual style. I must have pushed a button...(good, I like pushing buttons because then I can get through the BS). Anyway, I don't agree with your metaphor. You continually side-step questions and comments when they relate to the importance of cultivating jhana within the NEP. I don't find that to be an "unbrella of right understanding" (gag me!! ;- ), I find that to be a "blindfold of ignorance". > > Nina. > Metta, James 53225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Sankhara khanda for awareness" - ? (Sarah) nilovg Hi Phil, op 07-12-2005 08:28 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > I haven't yet understood the way "sankhara khanda" is used in the > talks sometimes. For example, today I heard you say "if it is > consideration of attachment at this moment it can be sankhara khanda > for awareness of lobha to arise." > > I know sankhara has many meanings but I thought sankhara khanda > means mental factors/cetasikas. In the above, it sounds as if it is > used to mean "condition." Is that because cetana cetasika is a > condition, or ... _____ N: As you say, sankhara khanda means mental factors/cetasikas. Except feeling and saññaa. Intellectual understanding is paññaa cetasika, it arises together with confidence, sati, detachment (alobha), adosa (makes one patient!), determination, manasikara, intention, and many sobhana cetasikas. These arise and fall away but they are accumulated in the next citta, on and on. When it is the right time they are the condition for intellectual understanding again, and thus it grows gradually. When there was only consideration of lobha and other dhammas, sankhara khanda is an accumulated condition for more consideration and later on for sati and direct understanding. This is encouraging, isn't it? Nina. 53226 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. ‘Cetasikas' study corner 328- Regret (kukkucca) nilovg Hi Phil, op 07-12-2005 08:49 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > On the other hand, when we have a moment of regret, couldn't it > condition hiri and otappa (shame and moral dread?), those cetasikas > which the Buddha called the "guardians of the world", to arise later to > steer us clear of the next akusala? ----- N: Even akusala can condition kusala, by way of natural strong dependent condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). One thinks of the danger with fear (dosa) and then some moments later hiri and ottappa can arise. -------- Ph:What conditions hiri and otappa if there isn't a moment of regret about something we've done? Just listening to the Buddha's teaching? ------- N: Right understanding is a condition to see with kusala citta (no fear) the value of kusala and the danger of akusala. One may consider past akusala with kusala citta, that is possible. We do not have to think about what conditions hiri and ottappa, because they are sobhana cetasikas arising with each kusala citta. When kusala citta arises they are there already, like now when considering and talking about Dhamma. Nina. 53227 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 11:12am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, (Yesterday' s should have been Ch 12, no 4) Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ditthi (wrong view) that can accompany lobha mula citta nilovg Hi Phil, op 07-12-2005 08:34 schreef Phil op philco777@...: A. Sujin mentionned the > ditthi that accompanies four of the eight lobha mula cittas. She talks > about it as though it is all about sakkaya ditthi (sp?) which I > understand to mean identity view, very subtle -... > > Is it that this ditthi that can accompany lobha has many degrees, > from subtle views about identity to more obvious ones like thinking > there is no consequence to wrong deeds? >----------- N: Yes many degrees, wrong view can condition very bad deeds. It is akusala kamma patha through the mind if one thinks, there is no consequence of evil. But personality belief is not so subtle, it conditions all sorts of wrong view like taking dhammas for permanent, sukha, self. But this is not akusala kamma patha. I just read in the Visuddhimagga that ditthi is considered very blamable, the highest fault. Nina. 53229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: four factors produce rupas. nilovg Hi Connie and Chinkah, Acharn Sujin's Survey. It is on Rob Kirkpatrick's web on line: I can help out if it is difficult to track down. Also in our Visuddhimagga series there is a lot on rupakkhandha I can track down. Nice examples, Connie. Are you new Chinkah? Nina. op 07-12-2005 17:26 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > You can find more in Nina's SURVEY OF PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS. 53230 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 0:03pm Subject: only in magga matheesha333 Hello everyone, Does anyone remember a sutta where this man told the buddha that he gives dana/alms only to those monks who were arahantha magga? metta Matheesha 53231 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 1:32pm Subject: Re: only in magga christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > Does anyone remember a sutta where this man told the buddha that he > gives dana/alms only to those monks who were arahantha magga? > > metta > > Matheesha Hello Matheesha, Maybe in one of these: The Donee: The suttas also describe the person to whom alms should be given (A.iii, 41). Guests, travelers and the sick should be treated with hospitality and due consideration. During famines the needy should be liberally entertained. The virtuous should be first entertained with the first fruits of fresh crops. There is a recurrent phrase in the suttas (D.i, 137; ii,354; iii,76) describing those who are particularly in need of public generosity. They are recluses (samana), brahmans (brahmana), destitutes (kapana), wayfarers (addhika), wanderers (vanibbaka) and beggars (yacaka). The recluses and brahmans are religious persons who do not earn wages. They give spiritual guidance to the laity and the laity is expected to support them. The poor need the help of the rich to survive and the rich become spiritually richer by helping the poor. At a time when transport facilities were meager and amenities for travelers were not adequately organized, the public had to step in to help the wayfarer. Buddhism considers it a person's moral obligation to give assistance to all these types of people. In the Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha describes, with sacrificial terminology, three types of fires that should be tended with care and honor (A.iv,44). They are ahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi. The Buddha explained that ahuneyyaggi means one's parents, and they should be honored and cared for. Gahapataggi means one's wife and children, employees and dependents. Dakkineyyaggi represents religious persons who have either attained the goal of Arahantship or have embarked on a course of training for the elimination of negative mental traits. All these should be cared for and looked after as one would tend a sacrificial fire. According to the Maha-Mangala Sutta, offering hospitality to one's relatives is one of the great auspicious deeds a layperson can perform (Sn. 262- 63). King Kosala once asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given (S.i,98). The Buddha replied that alms should be given to those by giving to whom one becomes happy. Then the king asked another question: To whom should alms be offered to obtain great fruit? The Buddha discriminated the two as different questions and replied that alms offered to the virtuous bears great fruit. He further clarified that offerings yield great fruit when made to virtuous recluses who have eliminated the five mental hindrances (nivarana) and culivated moral habits, concentration, wisdom, emancipation and knowledge and vision of emancipation (sila, samadhi, panna, vimutti, vimuttinanadassana). In the Sakkasamyutta (S.i,233) Sakka asked the same question from the Buddha: Gifts given to whom bring the greatest result? The Buddha replied that what is given to the Sangha bears great results. Here the Buddha specifies that what he means by "Sangha" is the community of those upright noble individuals who have entered the path and who have established themselves in the fruit of saintship, and who are endowed with morality, concentration and wisdom. It is important to note that "Sangha" according to the Vinaya means a sufficient group of monks to represent the Order of monks for various ecclesiastical purposes (Vin. i,319). But in the suttas "Sangha" means the four pairs of noble individuals or the eight particular individuals (cattari purisayugani, attha purisapuggala), i.e., those who are on the path to stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and Arahantship, and those who have obtained the fruits thereof. The Magha Sutta (Sn.p.86) gives a detailed account of the virtues of the Arahant to show to whom alms should be offered by one desiring merit. The Brahmanasamyutta (S.i,175) maintains that offerings bear greatest results when they are made to those who know their previous lives, who have seen heavens and hells, who have put an end to birth and who have realized ultimate knowledge. Thus the Sangha comprising morally perfect, worthy personages as described in the suttas constitutes the field of merit (punnakkhetta, M.i,447). Just as seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful crops, alms given to the virtuous established on the Noble Eightfold Path yield great results (A.iv,238; i,162). The Dhammapada maintains that fields have weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and desire are the blemishes of people and therefore what is given to those who have eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit (Dhp. 356-59). The results of generosity are measured more by the quality of the field of merit represented by the recipient than by the quantity and value of the gift given. The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records a fabulous alms-giving conducted by the Bodhisatta when he was born as a brahman named Velama. Lavish gifts of silver, gold, elephants, cows, carriages, etc., not to mention food, drink and clothing, were distributed among everybody who came forward to receive them. But this open- handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is said to be more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream- enterer (sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama. It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream-enterers. Next in order come non-returners, Arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana. http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/ebooks/pageload.php?book=0011&page=02 metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 53234 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 3:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - Thank you for the excellent post. Indeed, " If Dhamma is understood, Vinaya will be kept pure". But new monks or non-ariya monks do not understand the Dhamma enough to let go (renunciation, patinissagga). >Htoo: > > Vinaya is linked with Dhamma. If there is understanding of Dhamma > then vinaya will be kept on its own. > > The Buddha had to prescribe vinaya because of inappropriately > behaving monks (all puthujanas). > > > Now The Master had long been gone. But there are Dhamma and Vinaya. > > Who keep this? > Who destroy this? > Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Nina, Lodewijk, Tep, Sarah and all, > > Just butting in not to give any comment but to praise the exchange > of good questions and answers. > (snipped) 53235 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Connie: "Lately, my thoughts keep returning to the advetitious defilement and pure mind questions, so I still want to have the preceding mind be bhavanga citta,..." Hi Connie, What questions are these? What is adventitious defilement and pure mind? Larry 53236 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 7, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Lodewijk (Attn. Htoo, Sarah, Joop, James) - >N : ... a number of bhikkhus told the Buddha that sectarians asked them what the purpose of the holy life lived under the ascetic Gotama was. They asked whether they had answered rightly in saying that this was for the full understanding of suffering, dukkha. The Buddha said that this was right ... Tep: Full understanding(Parinna, Vism.XX,3) is an advanced quality of the mind (It goes like this: Sila, Samadhi, and Parinna. Not Parinna first, then Samadhi and Sila). Please review the Visuddhimagga. Full understanding is in Chapter XX. Purification of Virtue is in Chapter I. Which Chapter comes first? {:-)) Tep: Please study the following not-complicated sutta. The Buddha did not say that "full understanding of sufferring" was the first thing to be attained by new monks. Indeed, "full understanding of sufferring" (or right view and right vision) is the last of all qualities to be established after the monks have become faultless in Patimokkha Sila and Discipline, i.e. "training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults". Note that "Dhamma & Discipline" = Dhamma-Vinaya. ... ... AN V.114 : On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Magadhans at Andhakavinda. Then Ven. Ananda went to him and, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Ananda, the new monks — those who have not long gone forth, who are newcomers in this Dhamma & Discipline — should be encouraged, exhorted, and established in these five things. Which five? "'Come, friends, be virtuous. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in your behavior & sphere of activity. Train yourselves, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in restraint in accordance with the Patimokkha. "'Come, friends, dwell with your sense faculties guarded, with mindfulness as your protector, with mindfulness as your chief, with your intellect self-protected, endowed with an awareness protected by mindfulness.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in restraint of the senses. " 'Come, friends, speak only a little, place limits on your conversation.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in limited conversation. " 'Come, friends, dwell in the wilderness. Resort to remote wilderness & forest dwellings.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in physical seclusion. " 'Come, friends, develop right view. Be endowed with right vision.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in right vision. "New monks — those who have not long gone forth, who are newcomers in this Dhamma & Discipline — should be encouraged, exhorted, and established in these five things." [AN V.114 Andhakavinda Sutta] ............................ >N: The objects of understanding are nearer than you think, they are right in front. The place where you can go is here, the time is now. The beginning of the development is simpler than you would think. Tep: With due respect, I think your understanding is not correct. The fifth thing in AN V.114 above comes last -- i.e. develop right view and be endowed with right vision. ......... Now, for the lighter part :-) >N: Lodewijk, who is a wine-lover:< So long as it is good wine I do not mind drinking the same wine from the same bottle. In other words, right understanding is absolutely crucial and this cannot be repeated often enough.> Dear Lodewijk, you are right that a great wine does not need to be re-bottled. But the same answer, given over and over again in any situation, is boring and can be a wrong answer in some cases. In other words, by expecting new monks to be endowed with "right understanding" before developing Patimokkha Sila and the training rules and "seeing danger in the slightest faults" is a wrong expectation. Thank you both for the dhamma exchange. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Lodewijk said that you made a good point as to the Vinaya. (snipped) > > The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of dhammas as they > appear one at a time through the six doors. > Nowadays the situation has changed and the sasana is declining. We were so > glad to have visited Thai Temples in India where the abbots listened to > Acharn Sujin and saw the value of developing understanding of dhammas as > they appear one at a time through the six doors. > This is the way leading to the eradication of wrong view about them. Both > monks and laypeople alike have wrong view but there is a way to eradicate > it! > > Near Chiengmai (Wat Dong devi) there was an Abbot who understood very well, > but he passed away. > It is difficult to find a Temple with good Vinaya and understanding of > satipatthana. How difficult to keep the rules when you do not understand > your own citta. Observing the Vinaya should come from within, from the > heart. Then you see the Buddha's wisdom and do not consider them as rules > imposed from outside. But meanwhile we should be glad that the Sangha still > exists, for the preservation of the Teachings. > > The objects of understanding are nearer than you think, they are right in > front. The place where you can go is here, the time is now. The beginning of > the development is simpler than you would think. > ___ (snipped) 53237 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 0:24am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 329- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [v] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] We should not only know the characteristic of dosa, but also the characteristics of other akusala cetasikas which can arise with dosa-múla-citta: envy, stinginess and regret. As we have seen, dosa-múla-citta can be accompanied by only one of these three akusala cetasikas at a time; they cannot arise simultaneously. They may or may not arise when dosa-múla-citta arises. Sometimes there is dosa-múla-citta without any of these three akusala cetasikas, sometimes there is dosa-múla-citta accompanied by one of these three. We will come to know the characteristics of the different defilements more clearly by being mindful of them. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53238 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha & Vipassana sarahprocter... Hi Vijita, I was glad to read your contributions and would like to welcome you here. I don't believe we've heard from you before your recent posts on this thread. (Correct me if I'm wrong). --- Vijita Teoh wrote: > As I am concerned, both Anapanasati & Vipassana being practised by all > meditators no matter what method they use. > > I hope my explaination motivate everyone to try the practical aspect > of BuddhaDhamma.EHIPASIKO. .... S: Do you believe that all disciples of the Buddha (even when he was alive) practised anapanasati? What do you believe it means to 'practise' Vipassana, 'no matter what method' is used? Anyway, you're already engaged in discussion with others and I wasn't really intending to butt in, only to welcome you and also to encourage you to tell us more about your background and where you live. If you have time, please look at some of the messages saved under particular threads such as 'anapanasati' and 'vipassana' in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG sometime. I'd be glad to hear any of your further comments on any of those or any current threads. Metta, Sarah ====== 53239 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada sarahprocter... Dear Chinkah,(Connie*) I'd also like to welcome you to DSG and encourage you to tell us anything you care to share about your background, interest in Dhamma and where you live. You've obviously studied and considered a fair amount of Abhidhamma to ask the questions you do. --- limchinkah wrote: > Dear Connie, > > I have difficulty in comprehending what is meant by rupas that are > mind/consciousness produced; kamma produced; heat produced. I can > understand rupas that are nutriment produced. > .... S: I'd just like to say that these were good questions and the replies you've received were also excellent. Connie mentioned the book, 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. It can be found on this website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/contents.htm At the back, see appendix 111 on Rupas which gives all the details as I recall. Also, you may like to read/download Nina's small book on 'Rupas' which can either be found on this same website or on the Zolag website. Looking forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah * Connie, good to see all your discussion threads and hope this means you're doing better health-wise. From a comment in a message to Larry, I wondered if you hadn't seen this post I wrote with a couple of Dhp commentary notes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52987 Also, why not consider putting a pic of yr mum, daughter and her baby in the 'Signif Others'? With you would be even better....Maybe you could set a Xmas pic gift trend:-). ============================== 53240 From: nina Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 1:33am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 205 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 205. Text Vis.: Furthermore, because of the words 'Or feeling should be regarded as gross or subtle in comparison with this or that feeling' (Vbh. 4), among the unprofitable, etc., feeling by hate, too, is gross compared with that accompanied by greed because it burns up its own support, like a fire; and that accompanied by greed is subtle. ------ N: The term support, nissaya, refers to the heartbase, the physical base of all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. The Tiika (to Vis. 171) explains that dosa as it were pierces the body. Sometimes dosa is compared to a dart that pierces the body. It affects also the body and can cause sickness. The Tiika to this section (Vis. 205) explains that the feeling that accompanies dosa occurs as cruelty. ------ Text Vis.: Also, that accompanied by hate is gross when the hate is constant, and subtle when it is inconstant. -------- N: the Tiika explains constant (niyaata) as constant by way of its wrongness (micchatta). _____ Text Vis.: And the constant is gross when giving result that lasts for the aeon, while the other is subtle. ------ N: The dosa-muulacitta with feeling and the other cetasikas may motivate heinous crimes that give immediate result after death. The Tiika mentions as example Devadatta who committed akusala kamma that gave result lasting for an aeon (kappa.t.thitikaa). He tried to kill the Buddha several times. -------- Text Vis.: And of those giving result lasting for the aeon the unprompted is gross, while the other is subtle. -------- N: Akusala citta and cetasikas that are unprompted, occurring without hesitation, have a higher degree of unwholesomeness than those that are prompted, induced or occuring with hesitation. The Tiika explains that those that are unprompted are more blunt (tikhi.nata). --------- Text Vis.:But that accompanied by greed is gross when associated with [false] view, while the other is subtle. ------- N: That associated with wrong view, di.t.thi, is very blamable (mahaasavajja) and therefore it is gross according to the Tiika. -------- Text Vis.: That also when constant and giving result lasting for the aeon and unprompted is gross, while the others are subtle. ------ N: These three aspects that are taken together as constant, giving result lasting for the aeon and unprompted, should be applied severally, as explained above, the Tiika states. --------- Text Vis.: And without distinction the unprofitable with much result is gross, while that with little result is subtle. ------ N: That with much result is gross because of the abundance of evil. That with little result is because it is of a milder degree (mandadosatta). -------- Text Vis.: But the profitable with little result is gross, while that with much result is subtle. ***** Conclusion: We are reminded of many degrees of akusala of citta and the accompanying cetasikas, including feeling. The citta and cetasikas that are rooted in lobha and accompanied by wrong view are very blamable. So long as the latent tendency of wrong view has not been eradicated one is capable of committing akusala kamma patha that can lead to an unhappy rebirth. The sotaapanna who has eradicated wrong view will never transgress the five precepts. He cannot commit akusala kamma that leads to an unhappy rebirth. This can remind one to develop right understanding of all dhammas that appear, so that wrong view of them can be eradicated. ****** 53241 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from a new member sarahprocter... Hi Susan, I had as usual intended to continue our discussion before now -- I try to give some priority to new members. Actually, I've been having computer problems for the last couple of weeks or so and keep losing my internet connection which doesn't help. I hope your mother is feeling better now - please don't be concerned about delays or short posts or raising simple questions etc. Also, feel very free to ignore anything that seems too 'advanced' for now. (I mention this because of our brief off-list chat). --- susan wrote: > I have one quick question before I go if you or anyone else doesn't mind > helping me out with. It was a conversation I had with my mum about > duality > and non duality. We both seem to think very differently about it and we > both > seem to think we understand it all....but neither do, not really. ..... S: From time to times the word 'duality' comes up on DSG too, but I'm afraid it doesn't mean anything to me. Sometimes it seems to be an idea that those from more of a Mahayana background have that one cannot differentiate between those realities such as seeing or hearing consciousness which experience an object and the visible object or sound which is experienced. They suggest there is just 'the experiencing'. However, the Buddha clearly taught about the distinction between the experiencing and the experienced, between namas which can experience objects and rupas which never can. ..... >As > far as > I can understand from Buddhism, life is an illusion or how we perceive > life > to be, and I think I have mistakenly looked at Nirvana as something to > achieve, but for some reason I am now thinking that Samsara and Nirvana > must > be the same thing. .... S: Again I've heard these ideas from some friends coming from a Mahayana background. In the teachings as found in the Pali Tipitaka, life as we know it or think about it is an illusion, but the realities which make up life such as seeing, thinking, like and dislike, certainly are not an illusion. However we continue to grasp all realities because of our illusions about them, so we read they are like illusions or conjuring tricks. Nibbana and samsara are completely different. Nibbana is the one unconditioned reality which can only be experienced during enlightenment. Samsara is the round of rebirth, the continuous round of life and death that we're all subject to unless full enlightenment has been attained. I think you and your mother will find this dictionary very helpful: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html ..... >Is it how we view life that makes the duality seem > real? > So where as I was looking for a goal so to speak, I'm more thinking this > is > within me already should I want to look at life or suffering in a > different > way. ... S: I think that when we start to look at life as being various mental and physical phenemona existing in just this moment, then there's nothing within us to liik for. In an ultimate sense, suffering is the nature of these different phenemona because the rise and fall at each instant, not worthy of being grasped at all. I think the only worthy goal is the understanding of these present dhammas or realities now. .... > > But.........I'm not sure! I started with Theravada Buddhism and seemed > to > slip into every type of Buddhism and have learned that different > branches > mean different things and now I'm confused. .... S: It's very understandable. Please 'hang in' with us and be patient. I'm sure you'll find it worthwhile. Just follow your own threads for a time if that's simpler. I'd like to recommend Nina's book 'Buddhism in Daily Life' too. It can be found on this website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ .... >Sometimes I think the idea > of > Nirvana is an escape route in my mind as opposed to accepting and > enhancing > my life as it is now. .... S: I think it's a fantasy escape route for many people. There will be no nibbana/nirvana if we don't begin to understand more and more about our lives now at this very moment. ..... > > I've read too much and applied to little me thinks to understand > anything in > any depth. .... S: That's OK, join the club! Some of us may use a lot of terminology and be able to quote at length, but really, we're all beginners on the path. Understanding how little we really understand is a big step forward imho! .... > > Thanks again Sarah, and I really look forward to learning and applying > the > Buddhist path. ... S: Please stay with us and keep sharing your confusions and keen interest. You'll do us all a favour by asking questions and adding your own comments anytime. Metta, Sarah ======= 53242 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 2:02am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Joop, Sarah, Nina and James - ... Dear Tep, Sarah, Nina, James Thanks for your answer Tep. I realised that you have another discussion with Sarah If you have read some of my messages in several thread you can conclude that I have an other 'program'. What I'm looking for, is twofold: - dhammastudy as an aspect of my own (eightfold) path - finding a way how Theravada can be developped in the West, for example in my country, not for my individual development but for spreading of (Theravada)Buddhism. Many of my statements and questions have to be seen in the perspective of this second point. Although I know many DSG- participants (about you, Tep, I'm not sure) disagree with that, I think Western Theravada must have and will have some properties that differ from Theravada in for example Thailand. One of the differences is that it will be primarely a laypersons- theravada. So being a monk and monastic life will not be an important reference-point. Commenting your answers to my questions from this perspective: Tep: 1. Understanding why and how the Vinaya (monks' rules and duties -- or "discipline") supports Purification of Virtues of the holy life. Joop: This will only be done from intellectual curiosity. Tep: 2. Understanding how these rules & duties (discipline) are important for the Sangha (community of monks) to function in such a way that laypeople do not lose their respect and faith(saddha) in the monkhood and the sassana. Joop: There is no monkhood (in my country), so our respect and faith in the sassana will hardly or not be influenced by Vinaya-study. Tep: 3. As a "yardstick" to evaluate the conducts of monks in any monastery. Joop: see pont 1 Tep: 4. For answering the question: Can I follow all these rule if I become a monk one day? Joop: will hardly be done. Tep: "My humble opinion is that the Abhidhamma-pitaka does not supersede the other two baskets. We should study the Vinaya and Sila (restraint) in the Vinaya-pitaka first, then the Sutta-pitaka, then the Abhidhamma- pitaka." Joop: I will not do this myself and I will not advise it to newcomers in my country. In our reality a better advise will be: "combine (formal) vipassana-meditation and discussions about ethical behavior with study first the Sutta-pitaka and then the Abhidhamma- pitaka (and when you are curious how it was to be a monk, study parts of the Vinaya)." Don't you think this is an advise that will have a higher spread of the Dhamma - in a Western country - than yours? (Before writing this I have be reading texts in 'accestoinsight' about and of the Vinaya) Metta Joop 53243 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 3:33am Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) philofillet Hi Robert K (and Sarah) > At the moments when namarupapariccheda occur the minddoor is > apparent If you have a moment, could you expand on this "minddoor is apparent" a little bit? Do you know when A. Sujin uses the simile of two very thin pieces of paper, that the object goes from the sense door to the mind door as quickly as water passes from one sheet of paper to the next? Does it have something to with panna being sharp enough to experience that? Thanks in advance. Phil p.s Sarah, I know you took the time to explain the implications of this thin piece of paper simile before, but now I can't find it. If you happen to know the post # could you send it to me off-list? Thanks so much. 53244 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:04am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! icarofranca Hi Joop! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Joop: I will not do this myself and I will not advise it to >newcomers > in my country. In our reality a better advise will be: > "combine (formal) vipassana-meditation and discussions about >ethical > behavior with study first the Sutta-pitaka and then the Abhidhamma- > pitaka (and when you are curious how it was to be a monk, study >parts > of the Vinaya)." > > Don't you think this is an advise that will have a higher spread of > the Dhamma - in a Western country - than yours? > > (Before writing this I have be reading texts in 'accestoinsight' > about and of the Vinaya) >-------------------------------------------------------------------- The Vinayapitaka is the BEST text for a best understanding of the Buddhist doctrine. Many obscure passages at the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma gain a new light at the Vinaya pages, with its dry and respectable style, almost like a newspaper daily reading - its passages show how the Doctrine grew up in situations of direct conflict and drama, always solved up wisely by Buddha in a direct way. In the field of clear definitions, the Vinaya offers the clearest notions about practical Buddhism. In the Pattimokkha is clearly and formally stated that the mark of a true buddhist is the attendance of the Uposattha Days: in two periods of the month the Bhikkhus make a reunion - in whatever place they could be at this moment - and one chosen of the group recitates by heart all the Pattimokkha (the Sangha rules)to all other bhikkhus. THIS event makes the real buddhist, bhikkhu or bhikkhuni - and gives to Vinaya a real priority above all other texts in the Sutta or the Abhidhamma pitakas...going further on, it is very similar to a strong meditation technique mentioned in the Visuddhimagga - the "Recollection of Sangha's Qualities". Madamme Van Gorkon always cherished up the Vinaya studies for all interested ones: it's very true that nowadays the formal practices of Bhikkhus aren't so formal, so "By the Book", but this's the real ground where the Biddhist Doctrine is founded! Best Studies! With metta, Ícaro 53245 From: Vijita Teoh Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha & Vipassana vijitateoh Hi Sarah & all, It's not too late for me to introduce myself to the group. Actually, I'm just a lurker until I came across a post about Samatha better than Vipassana. I find both methods have different function to play, it's neither one better than the others. This subject caught my attention & I feel that I must get involved to get things corrected. Normally, I will say, "that's the condition" when seeing something not agrreeable to me. I stayed in Butterworth, Penang, Malaysia. Doing my own business & had been serious in Dhamma since about 5 years ago. Attended meditation retreats conducted by Sayalay Dipankara & at other places of nature. I was formerly a Mahayanist before finding Theravadan suitable to myself. Its alright for all to join in the discussion since we're in this group, known as dhamma study group. All of us would like to learn more about the Dhamma as "no one is superior than the others". It is good to share whatever is good with others - Dana. sarah abbott wrote: Hi Vijita, I was glad to read your contributions and would like to welcome you here. I don't believe we've heard from you before your recent posts on this thread. (Correct me if I'm wrong). --- Vijita Teoh wrote: > As I am concerned, both Anapanasati & Vipassana being practised by all > meditators no matter what method they use. > > I hope my explaination motivate everyone to try the practical aspect > of BuddhaDhamma.EHIPASIKO. .... S: Do you believe that all disciples of the Buddha (even when he was alive) practised anapanasati? What do you believe it means to 'practise' Vipassana, 'no matter what method' is used? V : I'm not sure what you exactly mean in the above paragraph but I think you might be saying that we are practising Vipassana, no matter what method we use. I don't mean that. Actually, thanks to Tep for conveying my message about this misunderstanding. Tep understand exactly what I mean. He helped me to answer all these misunderstanding. Actually, I am using Anapanasati in my meditation. Anyway, you're already engaged in discussion with others and I wasn't really intending to butt in, only to welcome you and also to encourage you to tell us more about your background and where you live. If you have time, please look at some of the messages saved under particular threads such as 'anapanasati' and 'vipassana' in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG sometime. I'd be glad to hear any of your further comments on any of those or any current threads. Metta, Sarah ====== Sadhu, Vijita 53246 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:57am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! icarofranca Typo >--------------------------------------------------------------- >but this's > the real ground where the Biddhist Doctrine is founded! >--------------------------------------------------------------- Corrigendum: but this is the real ground where the Buddhist Doctrine is founded! With metta Ícaro 53247 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 5:20am Subject: Vipassana and Abhidhamma (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Joop, Icaro and all, > > In his ebook 'Essentials of Insight Meditation' Ven. Sujiva ... > I had a look at the extract, and I doubt that the Venerable was > remembering his Abhidhamma. According to the Sabba Sutta,* for > example, the entire world is a few namas and rupas momentarily > arising at one of the six doorways. Therefore, meditation (samatha > or vipassana), if it exists at all, does so in just one > fleeting moment. > When you say you try to practice vipassana meditation you are not > talking about one fleeting moment, are you? You are talking about > something that lies outside the loka. This is a common mistake: we > worldlings believe we can practice samatha or vipassana just as we > believe we can play golf or go to the pictures etc. Hallo Ken, all In my message of yesterday (#53215) I have not reacted to this remark of you. I will send an other quote from Ven. Sujiva's ebook to make clear the positibve relation between Abhidhamma-study and doing (formal) vipassana meditation. Not to convince you or others but simple to give information of another way of practice. Metta Joop FROM VEN. SUJIVA, APPENDIX B - CONCEPT AND REALITY It is important that the meditator understands the difference between "concept" and "ultimate realities," because it is the direction which he will have to lead his mind—from concepts to realities. Concepts are those things or ideas thought out and conceived by the mind. They are built upon the ultimate realities. Concepts are only conventionally and subjectively true. Ultimate realities, on the other hand, are those phenomena which can be directly perceived (thus ultimate) without going through the process of conceptual thinking, reasoning or imagination. These are truths not depending on conventional definitions. Ultimate realities, however, do not necessarily only mean the Absolute Reality which refers only to the unchanging, unconditioned state—"Nibbana." Though conventional or conceptual realities are still a reality and we cannot really do away with them altogether, we will have to put them aside for periods of time during our meditation to allow us to really see and realise things as they really are. Conceptualisation can occur in two ways: i Active Thinking Active thinking can occur as philosophising, scheming, planning or fantasising. It is obvious that when one does it with lots of assumptions, preconceptions, ideas or hallu-cinations, then one cannot be, at the same time, experiencing nature directly. One has to put away all these before any insight can arise. ii `Unconscious' Thinking The second type of conceptualising is more subtle in that one is not actively "thinking" or at least one is not conscious of it. These concepts are formed so habitually and are deeply embedded in the mind. These can also be part and parcel of the mental processes influenced by kamma and the results of kamma. Although one cannot abandon these altogether, it is still necessary to transcend these for periods of time (by means of highly concentrated bare mindfulness) to allow insight to arise. Examples of concepts relevant to the meditator are: 1 Word Concepts (Sadda Paññatti) Words are made up of many syllables or sounds that arise and pass away consecutively. At one instant of time, the word does not exist, only the arising and passing away of sound, a vibrating form; materiality in nature. Similarly a musical piece is made up of many "notes" of sound. These are words based upon the play of sound when we try to communicate our ideas and experiences with another. Now it is also visual as it has been put into writing. Sound concepts (words) may be real if they refer directly to real phenomena that can be directly experienced. Unreal concepts are those that cannot refer directly to realities. They refer to other concepts and ideas which by themselves do not really exist. As words combine with words, further concepts build up and can be the combination of real and unreal concepts. Example: The word "mind" is a real concept as it refers to mental phenomena that can be directly experienced without conceptualisation. The word "man" is an unreal concept because it refers to something that cannot be directly experienced without conceptualisation. Some words may have both—eg patient who may refer to a sick person (unreal) or a tolerant mental state (real). In meditation we use them (real concepts) as labels to help us recognise realities. Words and labels should not be grasped at in meditation. One should instead try to understand what is meant to be experienced. 2 Form, shape and distance These concepts make up the two-dimensional and three-dimensional world. If you study the television screen, the picture is made up of electron lights shooting at a great speed from the tube within. They arise and pass too fast for one to really know what is actually happening. What the mind grasps (too slowly) is a general play of colours which form shapes and so give us ideas. They occur so fast that they seem to occur at the same time. 3 Directional Concepts (Disa Paññatti) These are concepts corresponding to directions, relationship of one thing to another eg east, west, right, left, above, below, inwards, outwards, sideways, upwards, and downwards. 4 Time Concepts (Kala Paññatti) The Time concept is built upon ideas concerning the recurrent and consecutive occurrence of material and mental phenomena. Materially, they involve light and darkness (as in day or night), physical state of body (as in old and young) and so on. Mentally, they involve mental activities and functions such as sleeping time, working time, and so on. Although we should have a general timetable or routine to guide our practice, we need not follow it blindly. Adjustments can be made if it is unsuitable. In groups, sometimes one's own welfare has to be sacrificed if benefit is meant for the welfare of the group. 5 Collective Concepts (Samuha Paññatti) These correspond to groups or collections of things, eg a class, a race, a car, a city, group interviews, group meditation etc. 6 Space Concepts (Akasa Paññatti) Space concepts are those that refer to open spaces—such as well, cave, hole and window. 7 Sight Concepts (Nimitta Paññatti) These are visualised images such as the learner's sign and mirror image of tranquillity meditation. Many hallucinations and imageries also come under this category. 8 Beings, Ego (Satta Paññatti) What people normally regard as "I," "you," "he," "she," "person," "dog" or "deva" are actually sets of ever-changing mental and material processes. These concepts of being, should be used as convenience in communication but when grasped upon as real, ultimate and absolute, one cannot help but fall into conflict and sooner or later fall to ruin. The abandoning of this concept is of utmost importance to Vipassana meditation but upon the realisation that "All dhammas are not-self," one ought not to think "I" am walking but just be mindful eg the process of walking. Some may philosophise as they watch. This will, on the other hand, fall into another set of concepts. There are still many more concepts such as of happiness, suffering, life and so on but we will not be dealing with them at the present. In order to have a better picture of the process of conceptualisation, it would be helpful to explain the thought processes. A thought process can be defined as a series of consciousness arising in an order that makes up what we "see," "hear" and "think." These thought processes arise from the life continuum, a flow of consciousness in a deep sleep state following stimuli from an internal or external object. (Here I skip a part because DSG-ers know that already; Joop) After this follows the mind door processes such as: 1 The first type of process is usually the compaction of past object process which is a carry over of the object from the sense doors (atitaghannavithi). 2 Following it is the amassing process, where the various eye objects are amassed into formation eg of shape concepts (samuhaghanavithi). 3 Next, ideas of what they are develop through the meaning or idea processes (atthaghanavithi). 4 Lastly, the names ascribed to it may be given mentally. This is through the naming process (namaghanavithi). These may develop further into more abstract ideas especially when associated with other sense doors and ideas. But from here we may say that to note "seeing" without thinking would cut off a lot of concepts. It would also help to disregard the shape and forms as far as possible. With the hearing process: 1 past process 2 amassing of sound forms 3 naming 4 meaning or ideas Similarly, by just noting "hearing" we cut off concepts. It would also help to disregard the "words" if we are to arrive at the Vipassana object faster. And again with smelling, tasting, and touching processes: … The processes follow one another so quickly that they make what is complex seem solid and as a whole. Four Kinds of Apparent Solidity (Ghana paññatti) 1 Santati Ghana (Compaction of continuity) The mental and material processes arise and cease so fast one after another that it seems as if they are one continuous unchanging occurrence. 2 Samuha Ghana (Compaction of mass) The mental and material processes are made up of so many characteristics or phenomena finely knitted by complex conditionings that they seem like one whole piece. 3 Kicca Ghana (Compaction of function) There are "different types of consciousness" each with their own specific functions eg seeing, hearing etc, which are very subtle and difficult to see. Hence one may mistake it for one working unit. 4 Arammana Ghana (Compaction of object) As the consciousness and process run very quickly by, so too the different objects that seem to appear together in one picture—giving rise to shapes, forms, etc. Thus wrong perceptions and hallucinations arise. These hallucinations arises in ascending degree: 1 Hallucination of perception Wrong perception of an object eg one thinks one's own shadow as belonging to someone else. 2 Hallucination of thought Based on hallucination of perceptions, one develops wrong thoughts and reasoning, eg if one does not hear well, one may misunderstand other's intentions and implications. 3 Hallucination of views With many of the hallucination of thoughts, one may grasp at wrong views with regard to life such as holding firmly to the wrong view that the world is permanent, perfectly happy and belonging to an everlasting self. From here we can clearly see that to break through all these concepts even for a while, to penetrate into realities, our mindfulness has to be: i agile and fast enough, ii thorough and continuous so that no stone is left unturned, iii very clear and concentrated to see through the complexity and perceive clearly the nature of the object. As for Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhamma) the Abhidhamma classifies them into four main categories: 1 Consciousness (Citta)—eg wholesome or unwholesome consciousness. 2 Mental States (Cetasika)—eg greed, conceit. 3 Matter (Rupa)—eg the element of rigidity. 4 Nibbana—the unconditioned. In short these (except for the last) are mental and material processes to be realised by the meditator as impermanent, unsatisfactory and non-self. However, not all these can be noted by the beginner. For example, it is not possible to note the Jhanic (absorption) and Lokuttara (supramundane) consciousness for they do not arise in the meditator. Neutral feelings are also noted by more experienced meditators as these feelings are more subtle and need sharper and stronger mindfulness. In fact, the beginners are not able to note without concepts because they have long been associated with them. So, to facilitate such situations, the beginners note using real concepts to help direct their mind to these realities. These are labels that will have to be increased when they are able to mindfully notice more phenomena. But Vipassana is not mere labelling or reciting, so one must not cling to them blindly. At times, it may be better to do without them. With progress, there will be so many of these phenomena arising and passing away at a great speed. Then, labelling must be abandoned or it will be an obstacle. Of the idea-concepts, the concept of a being must be abandoned if one is to have any Vipassana insight at all. It is obvious that by being mindful of mind and matter, one will not find any being there at all, no matter how hard one tries. In the course of one's progress, when realities can be noted fairly well, one will have to abandon other concepts, like those of form, directions, shape, space and time. There are even finer concepts of happiness and reality which you will find out in due time. For example: a Walking Meditation At first the meditators will do their walking meditation with the form of their legs still in their mind. With constant help of labelling of the phases of steps like "lifting," "stepping," the meditators direct it to the various experiences. When they can experience clearly the movement, tension, pulling, heat and cold and so on, the form of legs will soon be abandoned. With increased mindfulness of the realities and their behaviour, even the labels will have to be abandoned. When concentration becomes deep, the meditators may even forget the time, direction or where they are for those moments. b Sitting Meditation One first directs at the movements of the abdomen and other experiences labelled as "rising" and "falling." When one can discern the "pulling," "pushing" movements and other experiences like pressure, hardness and so on, one may lose a sense of its directions and so noting it as it behaves rather than as "rising" or "falling." Here one may use another more suitable label or put it aside altogether. At times when "rising" and "falling" is very clear and slow, more notings of "rising, rising, rising, rising…" will help the mind note moment to moment. If it can be perceived to be changing very fast from one moment after another, then, it will be difficult to put labels on the movement. The meditators will have to their to experience moment to moment as many of these realities as they arise and pass away. To help the meditators see clearly, they are often asked to describe in their experience in their own words and make thorough reports. Technical terms like "Dukkha" are definitely to be avoided. Frequent usage may indicate that one's mind is still involved with theoretical thinking and concepts. There is, however, a note of caution here. The abandoning of concepts would mean the disorientation of the conventional perception of the "person" and the "world" outside him. If one is not careful the mind may in a few cases lead to further disorientation and disorganisation. It is essential to understand that the presence of mindfulness and the understanding that the conceptual and conventional world, though not real in the ultimate sense, is built upon reality and has to be accepted and lived in. For example, there are people who refuse to use the words "I" and "you" because they think that it will arouse the idea of self. This is impractical! 53249 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 6:33am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - The Buddha's Teachings are already very difficult to penetrate, why do you think you have time to venture on something like "spreading of (Theravada)Buddhism" to your country and the West? >Joop: What I'm looking for, is twofold: - dhammastudy as an aspect of my own (eightfold) path - finding a way how Theravada can be developped in the West, for example in my country, not for my individual development but for spreading of (Theravada)Buddhism. >Joop: > Many of my statements and questions have to be seen in the > perspective of this second point. Although I know many DSG- > participants (about you, Tep, I'm not sure) disagree with that, I > think Western Theravada must have and will have some properties that > differ from Theravada in for example Thailand. > One of the differences is that it will be primarely a laypersons- > theravada. So being a monk and monastic life will not be an > important reference-point. > Tep: I like your first objective (your own Eightfold Path), but I think your second objective badly interferes with the first. Suppose you already have a 500-pound barbell to lift above your head, and you know that you have to develop your body by weight training for several years before you may have the stamina to lift the 500-pound weight. Would you still venture your energy and time on another commitment like mountain climbing with an objective like getting to the top of Mount Everest ? You must be a Superman. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Joop, Sarah, Nina and James - > ... > > Dear Tep, Sarah, Nina, James > > Thanks for your answer Tep. I realised that you have another > discussion with Sarah > If you have read some of my messages in several thread you can > conclude that I have an other 'program'. > What I'm looking for, is twofold: > - dhammastudy as an aspect of my own (eightfold) path > - finding a way how Theravada can be developped in the West, for > example in my country, not for my individual development but for > spreading of (Theravada)Buddhism. > > Many of my statements and questions have to be seen in the > perspective of this second point. Although I know many DSG- > participants (about you, Tep, I'm not sure) disagree with that, I > think Western Theravada must have and will have some properties that > differ from Theravada in for example Thailand. > One of the differences is that it will be primarely a laypersons- > theravada. So being a monk and monastic life will not be an > important reference-point. > > Commenting your answers to my questions from this perspective: > Tep: 1. Understanding why and how the Vinaya (monks' rules and > duties -- or > "discipline") supports Purification of Virtues of the holy life. > Joop: This will only be done from intellectual curiosity. > > Tep: 2. Understanding how these rules & duties (discipline) are > important > for the Sangha (community of monks) to function in such a way that > laypeople do not lose their respect and faith(saddha) in the monkhood > and the sassana. > Joop: There is no monkhood (in my country), so our respect and faith > in the sassana will hardly or not be influenced by Vinaya-study. > > Tep: 3. As a "yardstick" to evaluate the conducts of monks in any > monastery. > Joop: see pont 1 > > Tep: 4. For answering the question: Can I follow all these rule if I > become a monk one day? > Joop: will hardly be done. > > Tep: "My humble opinion is that the Abhidhamma-pitaka does not > supersede the > other two baskets. We should study the Vinaya and Sila (restraint) in > the Vinaya-pitaka first, then the Sutta-pitaka, then the Abhidhamma- > pitaka." > > Joop: I will not do this myself and I will not advise it to newcomers > in my country. In our reality a better advise will be: > "combine (formal) vipassana-meditation and discussions about ethical > behavior with study first the Sutta-pitaka and then the Abhidhamma- > pitaka (and when you are curious how it was to be a monk, study parts > of the Vinaya)." > > Don't you think this is an advise that will have a higher spread of > the Dhamma - in a Western country - than yours? > > (Before writing this I have be reading texts in 'accestoinsight' > about and of the Vinaya) > > Metta > > Joop > 53250 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 7:13am Subject: Pariyatti and Patipatti (was Re: Unfinished work) sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I think we haven't been hearing each other well enough. One of the ideas I have been expressing over and over which it seems you have not really heard is that of the three levels of understanding, namely pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Actually, I suspected from the very beginning even before you joined DSG, that our understanding of this is not the same. And I think I even brought this up in one of our first discussions, but for some reason it seems that you have not yet understood my take on the concepts. You said: >>>Htoo: Does pariyatti arise? ------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: It would be only more `thinking'. Pariyatti arises and falls in an instant, so does patipatti. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Here, you already answer my above question. So you think pariyatti arises and falls? I would take a note in my note book that Sukin told 'pariyatti arises and falls'. :-)) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sukin: If while listening to and discussing dhamma, pariyatti arises, it falls away instantly. Likewise patipatti too can arise and fall away by conditions beyond control. Therefore the idea of `applying' is wrong.<<< ============================================ Sukin in this post: Dhammas arise and fall, so since you do not consider pariyatti as arising and falling, this means that your understanding must be that it is not a dhamma. I think that it is, otherwise there wouldn't be enough motivation for me to be talking so much about it. ;-) To put things in perspective, let us have two groups of dhammas, a) the four akusala cittas accompanied by ditthi and b) the four kusala cittas accompanied by panna. What do you think is the citta which understands correctly in conceptual terms the Dhamma? Can it be akusala? Can it be kusala without panna? Is it nana sampayutta? If so, then this cittas does arise and fall no? Mind you, here I am not talking about "thinking" about dhamma, which can be with or without panna, but I refer to the panna associated with the thinking. So to me pariyatti does not reside in the books, but is a moment when there is reading, listening, considering, reflecting on the Teachings and the concepts are understood correctly and not when wrongly understood. Let us now consider this understanding, `thinking is not the same as direct experience'. Is this necessarily associated with panna? I think it can, but not necessary. Every religion teaches this and even every new- age philosophy would come to the same conclusion. It does not take panna to see this. What does require panna is what follows from this conclusion. Based on the predominant wrong view or any level of right view, a person will have ideas about `what is, and what should be'. You can be sure that if there is not the level of panna which then experiences a paramattha dhamma, any `seeking' will be with `wrong view'. And this happens so fast before any thinking even arises, that what ever the thoughts are, we will follow it and be convinced by any reasoning and logic associated with that. However, if one has heard enough of the correct dhamma, there can be instead an intellectual understanding of what is going on and so even if there did arise any idea associated with craving, it can be corrected and stopped right there. It is ironical that those who understand correctly at the intellectual level and see the value of it, are less likely to be fooled by concepts than those who seem to resist this in preference to `directly experience'. The latter are in fact being drawn by "concepts" for example of `self', `meditation', `retreat', `quiet' and so on to fit into their scheme of things. Even if they are studying the Abhidhamma, this will have to serve the purpose of which those ideas dictates. For example, one mediates or goes to a retreat in order to understand Nama and Rupa instead of the other way round, that the very idea about `meditation' and `retreat' is to be understood as just `nama' thinking. This is why early on in our study of Dhamma, the distinction between concept and reality must be made and understood. For else, some conventional idea about practice will be followed and one is not interested in knowing that patipatti is in fact a momentary arisen dhamma. One will just move forward with one's ideas about practice and pay no heed to warnings about `self' and `control'. But really, it is better not to have moments of patipatti arise, than to have miccha patipatti. And not knowing what patipatti is in theory, invariably what will be followed is wrong practice. And this knowing is not just a matter of having the idea in mind, but also the correct attitude towards it. For indeed if all this citta, cetasika and rupa that we talk and think so much about, is not about *this* moment, then I think we are missing the point. And this missing the point is further reinforced by our attachment to ideas of meditation, retreats etc. The reason why I continue to so much talk about the three levels of panna is because I see that many people are caught up in a conventional idea about practice and refuse to acknowledge the real meaning of patipatti. Not only this, but also it is important to know how development must start and progresses. This is why I also often mentioned the three rounds of Saccannana, Kiccannana and Katannana and the reason I once asked you if you heard about this. And lately it is for the same reason that I brought up the idea of Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna. All this is to bring us to the realization of where we are at. Can we even say that we have correct pariyatti each time that we consider the Teachings? Does Cintamaya panna arise that often in a day? Do we know seeing now? Does the characteristic of hardness appear and known as anatta? I think the test and proof is in how much understanding arises in this very moment. Some of us will acknowledge that ours is only panna of the thinking level. However, we would be referring to anything that arises in the moment, now. This level of Saddha which is convinced about what appears as being the only object that needs to be understood and not be caught up in concept of time, place and activity; this too is a necessary part of correct pariyatti. I think what happens is that people are not happy with just a correct intellectual understanding or even see much value in it, but instead would like to have `more', so the idea of `self' and `control' becomes the driving force. But of course this is from not having the correct pariyatti in the first place. In other words, there can't be a jump from the little understanding that dhamma needs to be understood directly to it actually happening. The development of panna happens in steps and degrees and involves increased detachment. In fact every kusala dhamma associated with the development of panna also gets developed in degrees. Such that one would see that generally there will be more sila, khanti, viriya and so on, each supporting panna and each directed towards the present dhamma. Doesn't it sound fantastic to think that all this is going to be developed in 7 days, or 7 months or 7 years by meditation? The level of delusion that indeed arises is quite annoying. So much so that it often leads to some level of being `conceited', often unexpressed, that one knows the Teachings well enough to not need to hear more, or that it is secondary. But even an Arahat would never say no to hearing the Buddha's teachings. These people may claim that they have high respect for the Buddha and talk about having great saddha, but they won't be able to convince me! Wrong view *cannot* have saddha towards the Buddha, because it does not see Him. Wrong View of course feels right, and this is why there is so much confidence and attachment to one's experiences and therefore also so much conceit. Another problem which I perceive also in you, is the great value placed on `formal meditation'. Remember I only started commenting on your posts after you suggested that the various meditation methods were `all' good? I think once we place so much importance to this concept, (of meditation) it becomes hard to question other's methods, though in reality we may not agree with them. It is almost like we like to turn a blind eye towards them. Obviously once we start to question methods of other `schools', we will also have to question whether our own, starting with whether it is universally applicable. Further down we may have to question if a student is capable of even knowing what is going on and therefore the meditation Teacher would be making any correct evaluation. After all what is this relaying of one's experience if not conditioned by sanna, citta and even ditthi vipallasa? Also we will then have to question the teacher himself, if whether in fact he knows anything or that he like the student, is a victim of the same faulty system of measuring and evaluating one's progress along the path. And if indeed this is true, then the whole system falls. In between there are all sort of other problems, but at the root is wrong view of self and giving `concepts' a reality status that it does not have. Have you ever done any such questioning, or do you just go ahead in the name of saddha? I have quite a bit more to say, but this is already too long and I am sleepy, so I'll end here. And tomorrow I might write more. Metta, Sukin. 53251 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 8:20am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Joop, > BTW, I like your name. > Apologies for the abbreviation, being basically a monolinguist, I > have the brain to go along with it and forget that not everyone > understands what I write. > Bec. stands for because. > > >, for example in my country: not persé a Sujin- > > organisation but a comparable lay-movement. Have you or other DSG- > > participants tried to start one in the citie they live? > > Azita: can't speak for others, and i've never tried to start one. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > Hallo Azita Glad to hear you like my name What makes me curious is how you 'practice' yoyr Buddhism, if 'pactice' is the right word. I mean, I think you don't formal meditate. But you read read much and do you have rituals? Metta Joop 53252 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 8:48am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop - > > The Buddha's Teachings are already very difficult to penetrate, why do > you think you have time to venture on something like "spreading of > (Theravada)Buddhism" to your country and the West? > > >Joop: What I'm looking for, is twofold: > - dhammastudy as an aspect of my own (eightfold) path > - finding a way how Theravada can be developped in the West, for > example in my country, not for my individual development but for > spreading of (Theravada)Buddhism. > Hallo Tep, all Thanks for your clear reaction, but I don't agree with it. Tep: "I like your first objective (your own Eightfold Path), but I think your second objective badly interferes with the first. Suppose you already have a 500-pound barbell to lift above your head, and you know that you have to develop your body by weight training for several years before you may have the stamina to lift the 500-pound weight. Would you still venture your energy and time on another commitment like mountain climbing with an objective like getting to the top of Mount Everest ? You must be a Superman." Joop: It's not heavy at all, writing some articles, doing some organizational work, helping by meditation meetings etc. It's a kind of joyfull Dhamma-study. And I think we had to do it! I noticed the Sutta AN VII 64 already three months ago, but it makes clear the stereotype that Mahayanists are concerned with the welfare and salvation of others; and that Theravadins are solely concerned with striving for their own salvation, is not correct. "Not correct" of course if one want to do what the Buddha advises us to do. It's clear from this Sutta that the Buddha want us (Theravadins) to be social. People who are only interested in their own liberation, their own getting an Arahant, should be criticized. Anguttara Nikaya VII 64 - Dhammaññu Sutta "A monk endowed with these seven qualities is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world. Which seven? There is the case where a monk is one with a sense of Dhamma, a sense of meaning, a sense of himself, a sense of moderation, a sense of time, a sense of social gatherings, & a sense of distinctions among individuals. …. "And how is a monk one with a sense of distinctions among individuals? There is the case where people are known to monk in terms of two categories. "Of two people -- one who wants to see noble ones and one who doesn't -- the one who doesn't want to see noble ones is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does want to see noble ones is, for that reason, to be praised. … "OF TWO PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE THE DHAMMA IN LINE WITH THE DHAMMA, HAVING A SENSE OF DHAMMA, HAVING A SENSE OF MEANING -- ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS, AND ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS -- THE ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS IS TO BE CRITICIZED FOR THAT REASON, THE ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS IS, FOR THAT REASON, TO BE PRAISED. (capitals made by me; Joop) "This is how people are known to a monk in terms of two categories. And this is how a monk is one with a sense of distinctions among individuals. "A monk endowed with these seven qualities is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world." ============================================= Metta Joop 53253 From: nina Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 10:32am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, ------- Footnote: 2. When there is seeing there is also that which is seen, visible object, but sati can be aware of only one reality at a time. Seeing is nåma and it can only be experienced through the mind-door. Visible object is rúpa and it can be experienced through the eye-door and through the mind-door. When insight-knowledge arises, nåma and rúpa are realized one at a time through the mind-door. ****** Nina. 53254 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 10:30am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > James: > > > > Yes, I am still interested. I may drop out for a bit and be quiet now > > and then but that is because my meditation practice is increasing > > lately. I am discovering more about myself on and off the cushion than > > ever before!! And, as a consequence, to tell the truth, I find these > > DSG conversations more and more superficial and pointless...but I > > still care so much about the speakers! So, yes, I am still > > interested. Don't worry about that. > > > > Tep: Please give me some ideas about what you ahve discovered "on and > off the cushion". Perhaps, we may be able to exchange a few > conversations that are not "superficial and pointless". > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > This is a simple, honest question so I am compelled to answer. Granted, I am hesitant to answer because I have found, at times, that when I reveal personal information about myself it is sometimes used against me later- in usually a silly an insipient way, but nevertheless that bothers me. But I will go ahead and give you some feedback. My meditation lately has made me less interested in the "how" and "why" of reality. We all want to have reasons and understanding as to "how" and "why" we exist. I think it is somewhat hard-wired into us all. Those who practice the dhamma get rid of this need more and more until it finally disappears. What do I mean??? This is hard to explain so let me give you an example: During the month of November I wasn't allowed to post to this group or to write personal e-mails because of a bet/agreement that I lost (which is top secret in nature). Amr, my bf, got an e-mail from Sarah off- list about how she would miss me (how sweet!) and that maybe Amr could post something in my absence. So, I asked Amr if he wanted to post something and that maybe posting something would be a good idea. I suggested that maybe he could post something from himself rather than his past posts where he just wanted to defend me tooth and nail ;-)). I suggested that maybe he could ask a question; I said, "Oh, you should ask a question of some sort. They love questions! You will have lots of people wanting to answer you." He replied, "Well, the only question I have is, in Buddhism, how was the world and universe created? I ask that in Islam and I don't believe the answer, so I want to know the answer in Buddhism." I was dumbstruck!! After all that I had spoken to him about karma, wisdom, enlightenment, and meditation, he still wanted to know how the universe was created! Anyway, I had to tell him, "Well, Buddhism doesn't have an answer for that. Buddhism considers that an unimportant question." He let it drop there but it bothered me for a while afterwards: Why is this metaphysical question about our creation and existence unimportant? Then, examining deeper, I saw that even within myself I often think in terms of "Why am I here?" and "Who/What put me here?" I usually wonder/ponder this when I am the most despondent about my life or current situation- maybe these types of thoughts are like a buoy to keep one afloat in the sea of suffering. However, through meditation, I have started to see more and more how these questions and thoughts are really unimportant- even though we all harbor them. I have also begun to understand that the questions must be abandoned completely if one expects to make true progress toward wisdom. So, how does this relate to my growing disenchantment with the discussions in this group? Because, most of the discussions revolve around the same questions my bf asked: How did we get here? What is the meaning of our existence? However, instead of being monotheistic, in this group there are two Gods: the God Nama and the God Rupa!! These gods are worshipped around the clock in this group and everything seems to fall within their domain. Ask any kind of question, and the answer will be Nama- Rupa. Make any kind of observation, and the counter observation will be Nama-Rupa. Nama-Rupa is everything!! Yeah Nama-Rupa!! Glory Blessings to Nama-Rupa! Know Nama-Rupa and all your suffering will go away!! The Dhamma is Nama-Rupa! We are all just Nama- Rupa!! Everything is just Nama-Rupa!! Etc. etc., etc. This is no different from the Christian-Judeo-Islams with their one god, the Hindus with their many gods, and the atheists with their no god. Just more views and beliefs…views and beliefs which are worthless and pointless. So, I am beginning to pull away from all of that…and as a consequence pull away from something that was also an intrinsic part of myself… Hope that answers your question- somewhat. Metta, James 53255 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 10:45am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > … > "OF TWO PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE THE DHAMMA IN LINE WITH THE DHAMMA, > HAVING A SENSE OF DHAMMA, HAVING A SENSE OF MEANING -- ONE WHO > PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS, AND ONE WHO > PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS -- THE ONE WHO > PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS IS TO BE > CRITICIZED FOR THAT REASON, THE ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN > BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS IS, FOR THAT REASON, TO BE PRAISED. > (capitals made by me; Joop) James: Nice quote. One of my favorites. I don't quite understand the logistics of your goal, as of yet, but I know that if it is to help other people then it is noble and I commend you for it. However, your first priority should be to work on your own wisdom. After all, the blind cannot lead the blind, as they say. Not suggesting your are deficient in this area or anything because I don't know, but I am just offering my feedback. Good luck to you with your cause of continuing the Buddhasasana- it is a worthy goal!! (But, to keep the balance, remember that not all of us have the same goal). Metta, James 53256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. nilovg Hi Tep, op 08-12-2005 02:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep: Full understanding(Parinna, Vism.XX,3) is an advanced quality of > the mind (It goes like this: Sila, Samadhi, and Parinna. Not Parinna > first, then Samadhi and Sila). Please review the Visuddhimagga. Full > understanding is in Chapter XX. Purification of Virtue is in Chapter > I. Which Chapter comes first? {:-)) ------- N: The Vis. begins: Tep: Please study the following not-complicated sutta. > ... ... > AN V.114 : ...."Ananda, the new monks — those who have not > long gone forth, who are newcomers in this Dhamma & Discipline — > should be encouraged, exhorted, and established in these five things. > Which five?.... >> " 'Come, friends, develop right view. Be endowed with right vision.' > Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in right vision. > "New monks — those who have not long gone forth, who are newcomers in > this Dhamma & Discipline — should be encouraged, exhorted, and > established in these five things." [AN V.114 Andhakavinda Sutta] > ............................ N: Often we find the heart of the matter at the end, this does not mean that there is a certain order. Develop these five things, all five. Not: first this then that, as I see it. T:... But the same answer, given over and over again in any > situation, is boring and can be a wrong answer in some cases. ----- N: I understand. It depends on the listener what he can get, even if it is the same thing heard over and over again. For some it is boring, that is OK. ------ T: In other words, by expecting new monks to be endowed with "right > understanding" before developing Patimokkha Sila and the training > rules and "seeing danger in the slightest faults" is a wrong expectation. ----- N: It would be ideal and in conformity with the whole teaching, but, we are far away from the Buddha's time. Nothing can be forced. We are imperfect worldlings. It is not a wrong expectation. I am glad you find the Vinaya useful also for laypeople. It can inspire cofidence in the Sangha. The monk's conduct should be like an arahat's. That is the power of the Vinaya. The rules are meaningful. Like eating manners: licking one's fimgers, putting food into one's cheek, what is the citta like? Lobha. Animal talk: lay people cannot abstain, but it is useful to know that it is not helpful, akusala. The monks wash their robes, sweep. I read in the satipatthanasutta, mindfulness and clear comprehension: no matter the monk is walking, standing, etc. speaking, in all activities, he should be mindful. I see so much the unity of Dhamma Vinaya. I see the Tipitaka as one. When reading no should's: this first, than that. You do not have to answer my post. In fact, I would rather not get into threads. In view of my Thailand trip in Febr, I have extra work with the Visuddhimagga and can hardly cope, sorry. Nina. 53257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) nilovg Hi Phil, butting in, while awaiting Rob. op 08-12-2005 12:33 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Hi Robert K (and Sarah) > >> At the moments when namarupapariccheda occur the minddoor is >> apparent > > If you have a moment, could you expand on this "minddoor is > apparent" a little bit? Do you know when A. Sujin uses the simile of > two very thin pieces of paper, that the object goes from the sense > door to the mind door as quickly as water passes from one sheet of > paper to the next? Does it have something to with panna being sharp > enough to experience that? ---------- N: I remember the simile. Mind-door process follows so fast, then sense-door process again. Visible object has fallen away, but the mind-door process cittas experience it very clearly, like a photo copy. This word was also used. The difference between nama and rupa has to be experienced by cittas of the mind-door process, nama can only be experienced by cittas of a mind-door process. It becomes clearer what nama is. Before it was mixed up with rupa, or only known through thinking about it. Nina. 53258 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 08-12-2005 02:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > Tep: Full understanding(Parinna, Vism.XX,3) is an advanced quality of > > the mind (It goes like this: Sila, Samadhi, and Parinna. Not Parinna > > first, then Samadhi and Sila). Please review the Visuddhimagga. Full > > understanding is in Chapter XX. Purification of Virtue is in Chapter > > I. Which Chapter comes first? {:-)) > ------- > N: The Vis. begins: ŒDevelops Consciousness and Understanding, > ŒThen as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious > ŒHe succeeds in disentangling this tangle¹. > > He also ends with this, beautifully composed. > Note: when a wise man... > > You say: Sila, Samadhi, and Parinna, in order, and we previously talked > about this. It is monotonous if I repeat all this. It is for teaching > purpose that there is this composition. I do not see it as an order of time. > But you think differently, that is fine for me. > ------- > > Tep: Please study the following not-complicated sutta. > > ... ... > > AN V.114 : ...."Ananda, the new monks — those who have not > > long gone forth, who are newcomers in this Dhamma & Discipline — > > should be encouraged, exhorted, and established in these five things. > > Which five?.... > >> " 'Come, friends, develop right view. Be endowed with right vision.' > > Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in right vision. > > "New monks — those who have not long gone forth, who are newcomers in > > this Dhamma & Discipline — should be encouraged, exhorted, and > > established in these five things." [AN V.114 Andhakavinda Sutta] > > ............................ > N: Often we find the heart of the matter at the end, this does not mean that > there is a certain order. Develop these five things, all five. Not: first > this then that, as I see it. Nina, you are so dead wrong about this issue. The Buddha never taught such a thing! He even told disciples from other sects that they would have to first be novices before entering the sangha if they wanted to progess. Personally, as a teacher, I find your observation without merit. All teachers place their students at intermediate steps to reach higher and higher goals. That is the goal of a TEACHER! Do you deny the Buddha was a teacher?? Please, you need to stop with your overworked posts (you are overworked) until you get your mind settled again. Just a suggestion. Metta, James 53259 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 329- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [v] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] ***** > [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, I just remember my own post on cetasikas under Dhamma Thread. There 'dosa' was assigned as a king. He has three queens. They are envy, stinginess and regret. At a time ( = in a citta ) the king 'dosa' can sit only with a queen on the throne. Not with 2 queens or all 3 queens. And sometimes, when the country's situation needs the king 'doa' has to sit alone on the throne. With respect, Htoo Naing > 53260 From: "ny_dhammika" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 8:11am Subject: Andrew L, back from vacation ny_dhammika OK, I wasn't really on vacation. I was away for 60 days though, and thus my Yahoo! member ID expired from inactivity. I have felt it was a bad, harmful thing to begin participating in this group and then stop, so, finally today, being as stable as I am, I am rejoining the group. I remember many times corresponding online both from my program and at home and it was most definitely a healthy, normal, even good and joyful experience. To sum up, I was really not familiar with the dhamma as you people study it, especially focusing on realities in daily life as anatta, and did not know how to reconcile my angle of practise with the Abhidhamma method, especially that of K. Sujin and Mrs Van Gorkum. In this space of time, however, I have had some positive things happen. I have reduced the number of material possessions I have for the sake of simplicity and using one single or at least a few less approaches towards the Dhamma taht might clash, including returning 'Abhidhamma Studies' and giving my copy of CMA to a friend, feeling that the way I am, reading it only furthered delusion and was of little benefit of daily understanding compared against the hardship of trying to make sense of it all. However, dhamma is dhamma, and I am not afraid of trying to recognize what presents itself to me as different dhammas; only I will not pursue that method. This brings me to another point: I need a life. :-) Buddhist studies are great but if you don't have a daily life, so much of it becomes abstract and does not lend itself towards good practise or developing insight or understanding in daily life. In the meantime, I have gotten Bhikkhu Bodhi's new book "In the Buddha's Words," a fantastic work, which, with a little discrimination, has allowed me to become, as it is said, "skilled and disciplined" in the Dhamma. I am not enlightened or seeing the 5 aggregates as not- self though, so there is more work to be done. If only there were more works of that book's quality! I cannot say enough about the high quality of Bhikkhu Bodhi's works. I still feel I need a daily life or at least something to change-- for example, Bhikkhu Bodhi quotes suttas that indicate that giving, moral discipline, and meditation (both insight and metta) are the basis for a fortunate rebirth; when I talk to people or am situated in real life I feel it is all there, when not, (maybe I am too engrossed with the world?) I cannot see it. Sila, dana, and bhavana, indeed. So with the exception of a small wheel publication from Sri Lanka by Bhikkhu Bodhi on transcendental dependant arising, and a book called "Great Disciples of the Buddha" also edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the only thing that remains in my collection taht is non-canonical is a non-standard printed edition of the Vissudhimagga, which I wish to replace with the Pariyatti/BPS edition. Doing that, and getting a copy of the Samyutta Nikaya for the holidays (if hope holds up) comprises the change of my main texts to three Nikayas, and a new (extremely accessable) of Dhammapada (specifically, "The Dhammapada : A New Translation of the Buddhist Classic with Annotations" by Gil Fronsdal) which also came out this year. It is quite simple and is inspirational and instructive enough that I think if I can persevere in meditation more and more as time goes on, I can more easily make acheivements as it does not go through specific points of the path to liberation which can be seen as obstacles and discouraging, but sums up the path in a few two or four-line verses. And I also like to have few material possessions, which is what the Dhamma is also about. That said, if I can continue to extract an understanding from this new Bhikkhu Bodhi book I think I well be well-to-do. I do not know what my participation here in the near future will be, but dhamma is dhamma and certainly certain topics are open for good discussion, in fact, I already see a thread on Dhammapada. May it be good for me and others to be back and have wholesome activities and discussion to do. Cheers, A.L. I still am reluctant to take the Abhidhamma method 53261 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Htoo's reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti (was Re: Unfinished work) htootintnaing Dear Sukin, I just deferred as your message was long. Now I came back from my translating and editing work. As the post was long I thought I might contain valuable hints (as I thought). Here I reply as 'my usual'. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, I think we haven't been hearing each other well enough. One of the ideas I have been expressing over and over which it seems you have not really heard is that of the three levels of understanding, namely pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Let me laugh. :D :D :D. That was not mocking you. It was just expression of my emotion. This might be unusual. What I love was that we are just exchanging with writing. If we discuss in person both may listen each other when talking is ongoing. Only then I will fully heard what you said. So there are 3 level of understanding. 1. pariyatti understanding 2. pa.tipatti understanding 3. pa.tivedha understanding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Actually, I suspected from the very beginning even before you joined DSG, that our understanding of this is not the same. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly. This change was because of you. Thank you both. Both you and DSGs. DSG makes me write better and better, understand clearer and clearer, and refine subtler and subtler. My understanding was 'there was a thing called pariyatti and it has to be learned and studied. Only when completely finished another thing patipatti has to be *done* with this self, who learnt and studied pariyatti. And that self who *does* or *practise* patipatti becomes to realize and it is pativedha.' Your understanding is already better than me ever. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And I think I even brought this up in one of our first discussions, but for some reason it seems that you have not yet understood my take on the concepts. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How true. I did not understand your take on concepts. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You said: >>>Htoo: Does pariyatti arise? ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>Sukin: It would be only more `thinking'. Pariyatti arises and falls in an instant, so does patipatti. ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>Htoo: Here, you already answer my above question. So you think pariyatti arises and falls? I would take a note in my note book that Sukin told 'pariyatti arises and falls'. :-)) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sukin: If while listening to and discussing dhamma, pariyatti arises, it falls away instantly. Likewise patipatti too can arise and fall away by conditions beyond control. Therefore the idea of `applying' is wrong.<<< ============================================ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I do not have interest in 'idea of applying'. But now you double confirmed 'pariyatti and patipatti' both can arise and both can fall away. I will write down in my note book (mental book) for the second time that 'Sukin said at DSG that pariyatti and patipatti can arise and fall away'. Signed at the bottom of that note 'Htoo'. :-)) You mentioned twice. So it is almost sure. To be 100 % sure I want to hear for the third time so that I will be able to write it down for the third time. [Htoo is strangely repeating for several times in his mind that Sukin said pariyatti and patipatti arise and fall away...... ...] --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Sukin in this post: Dhammas arise and fall, --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Htoo definitely agree this. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: so since you do not consider pariyatti as arising and falling, this means that your understanding must be that it is not a dhamma. I think that it is, otherwise there wouldn't be enough motivation for me to be talking so much about it. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's depend on you and your motivation. For me I even re-dig the old thread. The reason is to study from you. To be much more exact tofrom your wisdom. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: To put things in perspective, let us have two groups of dhammas, a) the four akusala cittas accompanied by ditthi and b) the four kusala cittas accompanied by panna. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before you ask something I will give some comments on this two lines of a) and b). b) is tihetula cittas. b) is triple-rooted consciousness. b) has three roots. That is alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non- aversion, and amoha or non-delusion or non-illusion. a) is just dvihetuka cittas. a) is just double-rooted consciousness So a) is quite different from b) Now I will see your question (possibly). I said possible question. Because I have not read but I expect when I see a) and b) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: What do you think is the citta which understands correctly in conceptual terms the Dhamma? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not everything that understands correctly is panna. Newton understood the law of physics correctly. Is it panna when he realized that there must be gravity? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Can it be akusala? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Kusalas are always accompanied by saddhaa, which is a clarity in mind and that clarity help pannaa see things very very clearly. And sati, which is mindfulness to do profitable things or kusala things. And many others mental factors that are totally different from mental factors present in akusala cittas. So my answer to your question 'Can it be akusala?' will be ''Depends on what the citta has associated mental factors. If you understand Dhamma with lobha then it is DEFINITELY akusala citta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Can it be kusala without panna? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This again depend on 'what the understanding that you said means'. If that understanding is with lobha it is not kusala and akusala never has pannaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is it nana sampayutta? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The same applies as above. Understanding with lobha is akusala. Examples: Someone is reading a Dhamma book. He understands dhamma as the book says. He extremely satisfied. But he does not know lobha arising. So he is said to be developing lobha when he understand what the book says. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If so, then this cittas does arise and fall no? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha ha ha. [Excuse me, Hmmm Hmmm] Citta does arise and citta does falls away. But pariyatti does not arise and fall away. Ask Nina whether 'citta' is a name or not, whether 'citta' is a pannatti or not, whether pariyatti is pannatti or not. She will explain you to your satisfaction. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Mind you, here I am not talking about "thinking" about dhamma, which can be with or without panna, but I refer to the panna associated with the thinking. So to me pariyatti does not reside in the books, but is a moment when there is reading, listening, considering, reflecting on the Teachings and the concepts are understood correctly and not when wrongly understood. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I seem to see your take. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Let us now consider this understanding, `thinking is not the same as direct experience'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Direct knowledge, direct understanding, direct seeing, direct experience are invented words because the original Paali cannot be translated into English to the top satifaction. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is this necessarily associated with panna? I think it can, but not necessary. Every religion teaches this and even every new- age philosophy would come to the same conclusion. It does not take panna to see this. What does require panna is what follows from this conclusion. Based on the predominant wrong view or any level of right view, a person will have ideas about `what is, and what should be'. You can be sure that if there is not the level of panna which then experiences a paramattha dhamma, any `seeking' will be with `wrong view'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you saying Prince Siddattha was wrong to search or wrong to seek the answer by going into forest, sitting under the Bo tree for 6 years and then frequently sat under trees, in quiet place? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And this happens so fast before any thinking even arises, that what ever the thoughts are, we will follow it and be convinced by any reasoning and logic associated with that. However, if one has heard enough of the correct dhamma, there can be instead an intellectual understanding of what is going on and so even if there did arise any idea associated with craving, it can be corrected and stopped right there. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat here again. I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat here for the third time. I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is ironical that those who understand correctly at the intellectual level and see the value of it, are less likely to be fooled by concepts than those who seem to resist this in preference to `directly experience'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I penetrate this. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The latter are in fact being drawn by "concepts" for example of `self', `meditation', `retreat', `quiet' and so on to fit into their scheme of things. Even if they are studying the Abhidhamma, this will have to serve the purpose of which those ideas dictates. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) :-)) :D --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: For example, one mediates or goes to a retreat in order to understand Nama and Rupa instead of the other way round, that the very idea about `meditation' and `retreat' is to be understood as just `nama' thinking. This is why early on in our study of Dhamma, the distinction between concept and reality must be made and understood. For else, some conventional idea about practice will be followed and one is not interested in knowing that patipatti is in fact a momentary arisen dhamma. One will just move forward with one's ideas about practice and pay no heed to warnings about `self' and `control'. But really, it is better not to have moments of patipatti arise, than to have miccha patipatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hold on!! Hang on !!! I will write down another word. Here 'micchaa patipatti'. The Buddha did say not to add any new and not to omit anything. 'Aanandaa..., Dhamma and vinaya will be Master when the Master pass away.' [Mahaparinibbana Sutta] I will try to find this new word that is micchaa patipatti in Tipitaka. :-)) Amara might know. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And not knowing what patipatti is in theory, invariably what will be followed is wrong practice. And this knowing is not just a matter of having the idea in mind, but also the correct attitude towards it. For indeed if all this citta, cetasika and rupa that we talk and think so much about, is not about *this* moment, then I think we are missing the point. And this missing the point is further reinforced by our attachment to ideas of meditation, retreats etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Fulfil what is needed. Good. Well done. Wait for accumulation. OK. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The reason why I continue to so much talk about the three levels of panna is because I see that many people are caught up in a conventional idea about practice and refuse to acknowledge the real meaning of patipatti. Not only this, but also it is important to know how development must start and progresses. This is why I also often mentioned the three rounds of Saccannana, Kiccannana and Katannana and the reason I once asked you if you heard about this. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Maybe this time my memory has a seive. It seems leaking out. 1. sacca ~naana 2. kicca ~naana 3. kata ~naana The First Discourse of The Buddha will say you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And lately it is for the same reason that I brought up the idea of Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for using Paa.li even though I lost the connections between your posts. 1. sutamaya (not suttamaya, I think) 2. cintamaya 3. bhaavanaamaya Manomaya = by means of mind suta maya= by means of 'being heard' (taught) cintamaya= by means of thinking (logical thinking) bhaavanaamaya= by means of 'mental activity of developing wisdom' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: All this is to bring us to the realization of where we are at. Can we even say that we have correct pariyatti each time that we consider the Teachings? Does Cintamaya panna arise that often in a day? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cintaamaya panna resides in persons like Buddhas. Do you think you have cintamaya pannaa? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do we know seeing now? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: YES. [ Htoo loudly answers. _just to be caust up in Sukin's trap_] I saw your '?' but now I am exactly touching the button that shows fullstop to end this sentence here please see'.' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Does the characteristic of hardness appear and known as anatta? I think the test and proof is in how much understanding arises in this very moment. Some of us will acknowledge that ours is only panna of the thinking level. However, we would be referring to anything that arises in the moment, now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) If I have to say the fourth time 'looking at a single...' ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This level of Saddha which is convinced about what appears as being the only object that needs to be understood and not be caught up in concept of time, place and activity; this too is a necessary part of correct pariyatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This might as well be 'UNNECESSARY dissection of dhammas into very very fine details that are never seen by anyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think what happens is that people are not happy with just a correct intellectual understanding or even see much value in it, but instead would like to have `more', so the idea of `self' and `control' becomes the driving force. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Might be, might be partly right. But this is not true. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But of course this is from not having the correct pariyatti in the first place. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, .......llll I will be looking forward to 'the second place'. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In other words, there can't be a jump from the little understanding that dhamma needs to be understood directly to it actually happening. The development of panna happens in steps and degrees and involves increased detachment. In fact every kusala dhamma associated with the development of panna also gets developed in degrees. Such that one would see that generally there will be more sila, khanti, viriya and so on, each supporting panna and each directed towards the present dhamma. Doesn't it sound fantastic to think that all this is going to be developed in 7 days, or 7 months or 7 years by meditation? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha ha ha. [Excuse me, Hmmm Hmmmm ...] This is what The Teachings say. This is in Tipitaka. This is not my own word. This is in Nikaaya. This is in Suttas. Not my word or any others' word. Here I will say for the fifth time that 'looking at a single ...' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The level of delusion that indeed arises is quite annoying. So much so that it often leads to some level of being `conceited', often unexpressed, that one knows the Teachings well enough to not need to hear more, or that it is secondary. But even an Arahat would never say no to hearing the Buddha's teachings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I strongly dobt the above paragraph. It is about what? I always repeat where important. I always go down to the base down to the bottom. Are you referring me that 'I am conceited and I am unexpressed and I assume myself know the Teachings well enough and 'to not need to hear more, or that it is secondary'? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: These people may claim that they have high respect for the Buddha and talk about having great saddha, but they won't be able to convince me! Wrong view *cannot* have saddha towards the Buddha, because it does not see Him. Wrong View of course feels right, and this is why there is so much confidence and attachment to one's experiences and therefore also so much conceit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Excuse me. I am not very clear. Did you say 'wrong view feels right'? Htoo: I think 'Avijjaa or delusion feels right'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Another problem which I perceive also in you, is the great value placed on `formal meditation'. Remember I only started commenting on your posts after you suggested that the various meditation methods were `all' good? I think once we place so much importance to this concept, (of meditation) it becomes hard to question other's methods, though in reality we may not agree with them. It is almost like we like to turn a blind eye towards them. Obviously once we start to question methods of other `schools', we will also have to question whether our own, starting with whether it is universally applicable. Further down we may have to question if a student is capable of even knowing what is going on and therefore the meditation Teacher would be making any correct evaluation. After all what is this relaying of one's experience if not conditioned by sanna, citta and even ditthi vipallasa? Also we will then have to question the teacher himself, if whether in fact he knows anything or that he like the student, is a victim of the same faulty system of measuring and evaluating one's progress along the path. And if indeed this is true, then the whole system falls. In between there are all sort of other problems, but at the root is wrong view of self and giving `concepts' a reality status that it does not have. Have you ever done any such questioning, or do you just go ahead in the name of saddha? I have quite a bit more to say, but this is already too long and I am sleepy, so I'll end here. And tomorrow I might write more. Metta, Sukin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So I have successfully put 'bait' where there are so many fish. Here bait is not 'the bait in Oxford dictionary'. It is 'food for fish'. Ha ha ha ha. I will re-dig the old whole. There are many methods of meditation of satipatthaana. 1. some do at nose and do breathing alternating forceful breathing and gentle breathing. 2. some teach D.O beforehand and then make sitting 3. some teach to put the mind at nose or lip 4. some teach to put the mind on the abdomen and many others. Inexhaustible Htoo will be responding when there is Dhamma matter and when he accesses to the internet. Do not drink coffee at night especially late night. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- 53262 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 1:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Nina, you are so dead wrong about this issue. The Buddha never taught such a thing! He even told disciples from other sects that they would have to first be novices before entering the sangha if they wanted to progess. Personally, as a teacher, I find your observation without merit. All teachers place their students at intermediate steps to reach higher and higher goals. That is the goal of a TEACHER! Do you deny the Buddha was a teacher?? Please, you need to stop with your overworked posts (you are overworked) until you get your mind settled again. Just a suggestion. Metta, James ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James ( Nina and Tep), I did not see Nina wrong. Siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa are grouped as three for the purpose of teaching. In developing NEP it is not like siila first, then come samaadhi and finally pannaa. Nina does not overwork. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53263 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 587 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, After sammaa-ditthi or right view and sammaa-sankappa or right thinking I will delineate on right speech or sammaa-vaacaa. The Buddha said, 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaa vaacaa, musaavaadaa verama.nii, pisu.naaya vaacaaya verama.nii, pharusaaya vaacaaya verama.nii, samphappalaapaa verama.nii. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa vaacaa'. In the post 'Small lesson' each letter of Paa.li has been explained. 'Monks, which is right speech? Being avoiding false speech, being avoiding divisive speech, being avoiding harsh speech, being avoiding unfruitful-fruitless- essenceless speech, these may be called as 'RIGHT SPEECH'. Here if a speech or a voice has implications of any of the following four things that speech is not right speech even though it might be true for a category when that category can be avoided. 1. telling lie 2. telling divisive speech 3. telling harsh speech 4. telling fruitless-essenceless speech. Examples; Someone very very looks like a monkey. If some person says 'He looks like a monkey' this is not saying false speech. As he is not saying 'He does not look like a monkey' and avoids that saying he is not telling a lie. But it is harsh speech and it cannot be right speech. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53264 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Re: only in magga matheesha333 Thanks Christine, will take a look.. regards Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > Does anyone remember a sutta where this man told the buddha that > he > > gives dana/alms only to those monks who were arahantha magga? > > > > metta > > > > Matheesha > > Hello Matheesha, > > Maybe in one of these: > > The Donee: > The suttas also describe the person to whom alms should be given > (A.iii, 41). Guests, travelers and the sick should be treated with > hospitality and due consideration. During famines the needy should > be liberally entertained. The virtuous should be first entertained > with the first fruits of fresh crops. There is a recurrent phrase in > the suttas (D.i, 137; ii,354; iii,76) describing those who are > particularly in need of public generosity. They are recluses > (samana), brahmans (brahmana), destitutes (kapana), wayfarers > (addhika), wanderers (vanibbaka) and beggars (yacaka). The recluses > and brahmans are religious persons who do not earn wages. They give > spiritual guidance to the laity and the laity is expected to support > them. The poor need the help of the rich to survive and the rich > become spiritually richer by helping the poor. At a time when > transport facilities were meager and amenities for travelers were > not adequately organized, the public had to step in to help the > wayfarer. Buddhism considers it a person's moral obligation to give > assistance to all these types of people. > > In the Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha describes, with sacrificial > terminology, three types of fires that should be tended with care > and honor (A.iv,44). They are ahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and > dakkhineyyaggi. The Buddha explained that ahuneyyaggi means one's > parents, and they should be honored and cared for. Gahapataggi means > one's wife and children, employees and dependents. Dakkineyyaggi > represents religious persons who have either attained the goal of > Arahantship or have embarked on a course of training for the > elimination of negative mental traits. All these should be cared for > and looked after as one would tend a sacrificial fire. According to > the Maha-Mangala Sutta, offering hospitality to one's relatives is > one of the great auspicious deeds a layperson can perform (Sn. 262- > 63). > > King Kosala once asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given > (S.i,98). The Buddha replied that alms should be given to those by > giving to whom one becomes happy. Then the king asked another > question: To whom should alms be offered to obtain great fruit? The > Buddha discriminated the two as different questions and replied that > alms offered to the virtuous bears great fruit. He further clarified > that offerings yield great fruit when made to virtuous recluses who > have eliminated the five mental hindrances (nivarana) and culivated > moral habits, concentration, wisdom, emancipation and knowledge and > vision of emancipation (sila, samadhi, panna, vimutti, > vimuttinanadassana). > > In the Sakkasamyutta (S.i,233) Sakka asked the same question from > the Buddha: Gifts given to whom bring the greatest result? The > Buddha replied that what is given to the Sangha bears great results. > Here the Buddha specifies that what he means by "Sangha" is the > community of those upright noble individuals who have entered the > path and who have established themselves in the fruit of saintship, > and who are endowed with morality, concentration and wisdom. It is > important to note that "Sangha" according to the Vinaya means a > sufficient group of monks to represent the Order of monks for > various ecclesiastical purposes (Vin. i,319). But in the > suttas "Sangha" means the four pairs of noble individuals or the > eight particular individuals (cattari purisayugani, attha > purisapuggala), i.e., those who are on the path to stream-entry, > once-returning, non-returning, and Arahantship, and those who have > obtained the fruits thereof. > > The Magha Sutta (Sn.p.86) gives a detailed account of the virtues of > the Arahant to show to whom alms should be offered by one desiring > merit. The Brahmanasamyutta (S.i,175) maintains that offerings bear > greatest results when they are made to those who know their previous > lives, who have seen heavens and hells, who have put an end to birth > and who have realized ultimate knowledge. Thus the Sangha comprising > morally perfect, worthy personages as described in the suttas > constitutes the field of merit (punnakkhetta, M.i,447). Just as > seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful crops, > alms given to the virtuous established on the Noble Eightfold Path > yield great results (A.iv,238; i,162). The Dhammapada maintains that > fields have weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and > desire are the blemishes of people and therefore what is given to > those who have eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit (Dhp. > 356-59). The results of generosity are measured more by the quality > of the field of merit represented by the recipient than by the > quantity and value of the gift given. > > The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records a fabulous alms-giving > conducted by the Bodhisatta when he was born as a brahman named > Velama. Lavish gifts of silver, gold, elephants, cows, carriages, > etc., not to mention food, drink and clothing, were distributed > among everybody who came forward to receive them. But this open- > handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was > concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is said to be > more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream- > enterer (sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by > Velama. It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a > hundred stream-enterers. Next in order come non-returners, Arahants, > Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the > Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even > more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the > Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five > Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation > of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into > impermanence, which leads to Nibbana. > http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/ebooks/pageload.php?book=0011&page=02 > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 53265 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 3:08pm Subject: [dsg] Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) matheesha333 Hi Nina, Phil, N: The difference between nama and rupa has to be experienced by cittas of the > mind-door process, nama can only be experienced by cittas of a mind- door > process. M: (to give another perspective) Yes, if a person concentrates it is possible to experience a sensation (rupa), yet the process of knowing that can be experienced immediately afterwards at the mind door by citta. The switch in between the two can be felt. The vinnana switching in between the two doors can be felt if awareness is sensitive enough. The process of feeling the long out breath and knowing that it is a long out breath, and experiencing that shift in between is important in knowing nama and rupa IMO. metta Matheesha 53266 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: "Sankhara khanda for awareness" - ? (Sarah) philofillet Hi Nina and all > N: As you say, sankhara khanda means mental factors/cetasikas. Except > feeling and saññaa. > Intellectual understanding is paññaa cetasika, it arises together with > confidence, sati, detachment (alobha), adosa (makes one patient!), > determination, manasikara, intention, and many sobhana cetasikas. When it arises. We know better than to think that we can try to make it arise. When there are conditions for it, the right effort (virya) that assists and supports the arising of kusala that hasn't arisen and maintains the kusala has arisen will arise. This can happen, does happen, will happen, for the Buddha taught us so. Adosa and panna will allow us to be patient about this process - there are so many conditions that make us impatient for results - but panna and adosa and other kusala cittas can and will arise. This is very encouraging. > These > arise and fall away but they are accumulated in the next citta, on and on. This "in the citta" is something that hasn't clicked for me yet. Can't I think and talk about natural decisive support condition instead? That seems easier for me to understand. > When it is the right time they are the condition for intellectual > understanding again, and thus it grows gradually. When there was only > consideration of lobha and other dhammas, sankhara khanda is an accumulated > condition for more consideration and later on for sati and direct > understanding. > This is encouraging, isn't it? Very encouraging. Another encouraging thing - still studying suttas in salayatanasamyutta. SN 35:23 is so impressive and stirring - about the all being nothing but the paramattha dhammas of the ayatanas, and the following suttas that make it so clear that the purpose of the holy life is to know them, and abandon them, but also that "the all" is burning with lobha, dosa and moha. It is so clear what is to be done, but also clear where I am and where the noble ones are (very different!) and there can be panna and patience arising that steer me clear from being hungry for results. Very encouraging. Phil p.s I have written "very encouraging" three times. How do we say this in Pali? I would like to have SN 35.23 tattooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it everytime I look in the bathroom mirror. It is short enough to do so and thnkfully hair has receded to leave lots of room for writing it. I intended to tattoo the three gatas (sp?) "this is mine, I am this, this is my self" backwards on my forehead but never got around to it. This is good evidence that making kusala intentions is just sweet thinking. 53267 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:09pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I truly appreciate your (reluctant) agreement to tell me the story about why you have become disenchanted with the DSG posting. The story is clear. >James: >Then, examining deeper, I saw that even within myself I often think in terms of "Why am I here?" and "Who/What put me here?" I usually wonder/ponder this when I am the most despondent about my life or current situation- maybe these types of thoughts are like a buoy to keep one afloat in the sea of suffering. >However, through meditation, I have started to see more and more how these questions and thoughts are really unimportant- even though we all harbor them. I have also begun to understand that the questions must be abandoned completely if one expects to make true progress toward wisdom. Tep: These are questions about 'atta'. Like you have said ('We all want to have reasons and understanding as to "how" and "why" we exist. I think it is somewhat hard-wired into us all.'), we all ask these very same questions. But gaining an "understanding" about the danger of such a wrong view is really an exceptional achievement, because you have realized the wisdom all by yourself (not by just repeating after a Dhamma book or sutta). ..................... >James: >So, how does this relate to my growing disenchantment with the discussions in this group? Because, most of the discussions revolve around the same questions my bf asked: How did we get here? What is the meaning of our existence? However, instead of being monotheistic, in this group there are two Gods: the God Nama and the God Rupa!! ... Ask any kind of question, and the answer will be Nama-Rupa. Make any kind of observation, and the counter observation will be Nama-Rupa. ... Tep: I also see 'right understanding', 'lobha', and 'no self'. And lately I compared such repetition to drinking of the same wine from the same bottle. However, there is no harm done as far as I am concerned, only that it is a little boring. ................... >James: > So, I am beginning to pull away from all of that…and as a consequence pull away from something that was also an intrinsic part of myself… Hope that answers your question- somewhat. Tep: You have answered me well. But boredom doesn't last long. I have been bored by my own nama and rupa, but after that I become attached to them again. Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > > > Tep: Please give me some ideas about what you ahve discovered "on > and > > off the cushion". Perhaps, we may be able to exchange a few > > conversations that are not "superficial and pointless". > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > This is a simple, honest question so I am compelled to answer. > Granted, I am hesitant to answer because I have found, at times, > that when I reveal personal information about myself it is sometimes > used against me later- in usually a silly an insipient way, but > nevertheless that bothers me. But I will go ahead and give you some > feedback. > (snipped) 53268 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (James, and Nina) - James had his view and he expressed it clearly. He was right about training of monks from the beginning. When you were in school you started with simple arithmetic like addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Arithmetric, algebra, and calculus are not "grouped as three" for the purpose of teaching. Regards, Tep =========== >> James: >> Nina, you are so dead wrong about this issue. The Buddha never > taught such a thing! He even told disciples from other sects that > they would have to first be novices before entering the sangha if > they wanted to progess. Personally, as a teacher, I find your > observation without merit. All teachers place their students at > intermediate steps to reach higher and higher goals. That is the > goal of a TEACHER! Do you deny the Buddha was a teacher?? Please, > you need to stop with your overworked posts (you are overworked) > until you get your mind settled again. Just a suggestion. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Dear James ( Nina and Tep), > > I did not see Nina wrong. > > Siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa are grouped as three for the purpose > of teaching. > > In developing NEP it is not like > > siila first, then come samaadhi and finally pannaa. > > Nina does not overwork. > 53269 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - > > Hallo Tep, all > > Thanks for your clear reaction, but I don't agree with it. > > > Joop: It's not heavy at all, writing some articles, doing some > organizational work, helping by meditation meetings etc. It's a kind > of joyfull Dhamma-study. And I think we had to do it! If it is not going to interfere with your first goal, then it is alright. Regards, Tep ======= 53270 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 5:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and James, Htoo) - I have pondered over the many dialogues we had in the past and do not think we wasted our time. So, for the sake of the good dialogues in the past, I hope you may consider answering my only question below. >N: The Vis. begins: ŒDevelops Consciousness and Understanding, > ŒThen as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious > ŒHe succeeds in disentangling this tangle¹. > > He also ends with this, beautifully composed. > Note: when a wise man... > > You say: Sila, Samadhi, and Parinna, in order, and we previously talked about this. It is monotonous if I repeat all this. It is for teaching purpose that there is this composition. I do not see it as an order of time. > But you think differently, that is fine for me. > ------- Tep: It is good that you are referring to the Visuddhimagga because, unlike a difficult sutta, there will not be any problem of misinterpretation. Please look at the following short quote from the book and answer my only question below. Vism I, 10 : The dispensation's goodness in the beginning is shown by virtue. ... Its goodness in the middle is shown by concentration. ... Because of the passage 'The purifying of one's own mind -- this is the Buddhas' dispensation'(DH.183), and because understanding is its culmination, understanding is the end of the dispensation. [endquote] Question : Don't you see the order of sila, samadhi and then panna (the "culmination" of the dispensation) in the above quote? >Nina: > You do not have to answer my post. In fact, I would rather not get into threads. In view of my Thailand trip in Febr, I have extra work with the Visuddhimagga and can hardly cope, sorry. Tep: I won't bother you after this -- promised ! Warm regards, Tep ========== 53271 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 6:27pm Subject: Re: "Sankhara khanda for awareness" - Phil gazita2002 Hello Phil, I smiled when I read this one: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi Nina and all > > > N: As you say, sankhara khanda means mental factors/cetasikas. ...snip.... > p.s I have written "very encouraging" three times. How do we say > this in Pali? I would like to have SN 35.23 tattooed on my forehead, > backwards, so I can see it everytime I look in the bathroom mirror. > It is short enough to do so and thnkfully hair has receded to leave > lots of room for writing it. Azita: you'll need a REALLY big forehead :-) bec I've just read this sutta and agree its very good; and suggest u add the commentary to the last sentence: "because Bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain" Comment: people become vexed when they go outside their domain. Just as it is outside one's domain to cross a deep body of water while carrying a stone palace on one's head [can u imagine that! - not just a stone but stone palace - my comments.] or to drag the sun and moon off their course, and one would only meet with vexation if one makes the attempt, so to in this case. Isn't that wonderful! I intended to tattoo the three gatas > (sp?) "this is mine, I am this, this is my self" backwards on my > forehead but never got around to it. This is good evidence that > making kusala intentions is just sweet thinking. > Patience courage and good cheer, Azita. 53272 From: limchinkah Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Understanding Abhhidhamma (Was: Dhammapada) limchinkah Dear Sarah, I joined this egroup several months ago and have been staying in the background reading the messages posted by members. I must say many of the postings are very profound and some are beyond my level of comprehension (at least for the moment). I am from Petaling Jaya (a city near Kuala Lumpur), Malaysia. I was "born" a Buddhist - my parents are buddhists. I did not have any idea about buddhism until 1999/2000 when I attended a introductory course on buddhism at one of the local temples. Ever since then I have been quite active in dhammaduta activities - trying my best to propagate the dhamma in whatever ways I can. Recently, I sent about 15,000 dhamma books to the poor countries like Africa, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. I also sent 8,000 dhamma books to the prisoners (of buddhist faith) in the local prisons in Malaysia. My first taste of Abhidhamma was 3 years ago when a Burmese professor came to give us a very intensive crash course on Abhidhamma. And a few months ago, a nun (Sayalay Susila) from the Pak Aw Monastery in Burma came to give us another introductory course in Abdhidhamma. I find Abhidhamma very profound and quite difficult to understand. At times, I wish there is a "Abhidhamma for real Dummies" book available!! One of the difficulties people faced in learning Abhidhamma (or even the Suttas for that matter) is perhaps the english. I guess it is quite difficult to accurately translate Pali into english and authors often have to use the best-fit english word to represent a certain Pali word. For example, people often say that "suffering" is not the best english word to describe "dukkha". Some of the Abdhidhamma facts sound a bit mystifying. I am not doubting what is taught by the Buddha. Very often, I try to relate the theories of Abdhidhamma to something practical - something that I can relate to in our human bodies. My recent question regarding the kamma produced rupas; consciousness produced rupas; heat produced rupas was aimed at relating them to our human bodies. At the back of my mind when I learned about the ways how rupas can be produced was the scientific law that says "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed". If matter cannot be created nor destroyed, how then is rupa/matter created by a consciousness or kamma? I will need to read 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' to find the answers to this question and other questions that I have on Abdhidhamma. Thank you. with metta, chinkah sarah abbott wrote: Dear Chinkah,(Connie*) I'd also like to welcome you to DSG and encourage you to tell us anything you care to share about your background, interest in Dhamma and where you live. You've obviously studied and considered a fair amount of Abhidhamma to ask the questions you do. --- limchinkah wrote: > Dear Connie, > > I have difficulty in comprehending what is meant by rupas that are > mind/consciousness produced; kamma produced; heat produced. I can > understand rupas that are nutriment produced. > .... 53273 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 8, 2005 10:05pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 330- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [w] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] Questions i Why can envy arise only with dosa-múla-citta? ii Why is it helpful to cultivate the wholesome quality of sympathetic joy (muditå)? iii Who has eradicated envy? iv Can suffering from hunger and thirst be a result of stinginess? v Can those who are very stingy by nature learn to become less stingy? In what way? vi Who has eradicated stinginess? vii What is the proximate cause of regret? viii In what way can akusala kamma cause sorrow both in this world and the next? ix Who has eradicated regret completely? ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret(kukkucca)finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 53274 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Dear Joop, James (& Tep) I’ll get back to other parts of your posts later if others haven’t responded to them (thx to Nina and others for helping out with various threads). --- Joop wrote: > Some remarks and a re-question > > In #53123 you state (to James but attrackted my attention): > Sarah: "In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word > of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, > Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma <.....> > - Who counted "the 84.000 Units of the Dhamma"? Of course nobody, > it's a good example of not taken parts of the Pali Canon literally > but metaphorically .... S: I think they were counted literally at the First Council. Tep kindly appreciated another quote I gave from the Atthasaalinii (commentary to the Dhammasa’nganii, so let me give its further elaboration (also given in the commentary to the Vinaya,the Baahiranidaana): Atth., translated as ‘The Expositor’ (PTS), Introductory Discourse: “Which are the eighty-four thousand units of text? ‘Eighty-two thousand from the Blessed One, Two thousand from the bhikkhu Sariputta- Eighty-four thousand dhammas have I learned.’ (verse spoken by Ananda to Gopaka Moggallana)” Thus the whole of the Buddha’s word is composed of eighty-four thousand units of text. Of these, the Sutta contains more than one theme, its units of texts are determined by the number of such themes. In verses each query or question asked forms a unit, and each answer forms another. In the Abhidhamma each trinal or dual classification , as well as each classification of conscious intervals, forms one unit of text. In the Vinaya there are subjects, tables of contents, classification of terms, offence, innocence, interim offence, and division into triplets, wherein each portion should be understood as a unit of text. Such is the division of the Doctrine into eighty-four thousand units of text. Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: ‘{This is the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya|; these are the first words, these are the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, this the Digha Nikaya.....Khuddaka Nikaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the Suttas, etc; these are the eighty-four thousand units of text.’” S: I understand you (Joop and James) may not accept or agree with the commentaries, but you may like to consider some of the details before rejecting such comments as purely ‘metaphorical’. Metta, Sarah p.s More in ‘U.P.’ under ‘Vinaya- commentary’ & ‘Abhidhamma-origins’ ========================================================= 53275 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 0:45am Subject: Vinaya for laypeople? (Was:Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! jwromeijn Hallo James, Tep Tep, should not your conclusion be, after reading AN VII-64 that we all had to "practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning -- practice for both our own benefit and that of others" ? And the these two goals are interfering each other, that's no problem too James, thanks for your feedback. Yes, I have seen and heard of examples of people who were so active in Buddhist organizations that they in fact forget to work on their own wisdom. The danger of internet forum like DSG that I exaggarate my position in a discussion in trying to make that position more clear; in fact I don't spend so much time to other people. You said it well "continuing the Buddhasasana". This thread was about the Vinaya. I have nothing against monastic life, and maybe many texts of the Vinaya are good for me. But what I wanted to stress again an again: monastic life in the East is coming to its end and in the West will not increase. So we should construct a (Theravada)Dhamma without monastic dimension and with a social dimension. Otherwise its will totally disappear. If you want I can draw a selfish argument from that too (not my argument): If you belief in rebirth and guess you are not yet arahat at the end of this life, and if you are reborn on this planet on which there exists no Theravada any more: than you have a problem. So, Tep: it's not interfering, it's creating conditions for our first goal. Quiet an other problem, and I'm not the first who said that, is the amount of time I spend in DSG-discussions. There are threads in which I think there is really a understanding, there are messages made by me in which I formulated my ideas better than I did before (more monologues than dialogues). But many discussions are not so usefull, especially with messages that are in a literal way conservative: want to conserve that what was, with no eyes for the fact that the socialcultural situation, and thus the famous conditions, are changed. My first conclusion is that I too should spend less time on DSG And my second that I'm in fact more a Mahayanist than I have admitted to myself till now. Metta Joop 53276 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 0:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and James, Htoo) - > > > Question : Don't you see the order of sila, samadhi and then panna > (the "culmination" of the dispensation) in the above quote? > Hallo Tep, James, Nina, Htoo Joop: A good question, although a little retoric, because the answer can only be 'yes' But shouldn't it be better to have another way of thinking instead of 'order': that is linear thinking. To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for example) sila - samadhi - panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path. Just as I had to pay attention to the links of Dependent Origination. Isn't there a Sutta about cyclic thinking? Metta Joop 53277 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 0:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop, James (& Tep) > > I'll get back to other parts of your posts later if others haven't > responded to them (thx to Nina and others for helping out with various > threads). > > --- Joop wrote: > > > Some remarks and a re-question > > > > In #53123 you state (to James but attrackted my attention): > > Sarah: "In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word > > of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, > > Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma > <.....> > > - Who counted "the 84.000 Units of the Dhamma"? Of course nobody, > > it's a good example of not taken parts of the Pali Canon literally > > but metaphorically > .... > S: I think they were counted literally at the First Council. > > Tep kindly appreciated another quote I gave from the Atthasaalinii > (commentary to the Dhammasa'nganii, so let me give its further elaboration > (also given in the commentary to the Vinaya,the Baahiranidaana): > > Atth., translated as `The Expositor' (PTS), Introductory Discourse: > > "Which are the eighty-four thousand units of text? > > `Eighty-two thousand from the Blessed One, > Two thousand from the bhikkhu Sariputta- > Eighty-four thousand dhammas have I learned.' > (verse spoken by Ananda to Gopaka Moggallana)" > > Thus the whole of the Buddha's word is composed of eighty-four thousand > units of text. Of these, the Sutta contains more than one theme, its units > of texts are determined by the number of such themes. In verses each query > or question asked forms a unit, and each answer forms another. In the > Abhidhamma each trinal or dual classification , as well as each > classification of conscious intervals, forms one unit of text. In the > Vinaya there are subjects, tables of contents, classification of terms, > offence, innocence, interim offence, and division into triplets, wherein > each portion should be understood as a unit of text. Such is the division > of the Doctrine into eighty-four thousand units of text. > > Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five > hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the > presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: `{This is > the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya|; these are the first words, these are > the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the > Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma- Pitaka, this > the Digha Nikaya.....Khuddaka Nikaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the > Suttas, etc; these are the eighty-four thousand units of text.'" > > S: I understand you (Joop and James) may not accept or agree with the > commentaries, but you may like to consider some of the details before > rejecting such comments as purely `metaphorical'. James: I did not say that the details of this commentary are metaphorical, I said that they are bogus- a lie, a fabrication. Ananda never said any such thing and the Abhidhamma wasn't recited at the First Council. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s More in `U.P.' under `Vinaya- commentary' & `Abhidhamma- origins' > ========================================================= > Metta, James 53278 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:06am Subject: Why a Tipitaka and is the Vinaya 'just rules'? (was Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi Joop, Tep, (James if you want to read a post of comy quotes only) & all, --- Joop wrote: > In #53123 you state (to James but attrackted my attention): > Sarah: "In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word > of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, > Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma. At > the same time it stresses that 'the training in higher morality' > is 'specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka', 'the training in > higher thought' in the Suttapitaka and 'the training in higher > wisdom' in the Abhidhammapitaka." > Joop: I'm so free to disagree with this commentary: > - It's not 'higher morality' but ethical and practical rules monks > should keep; and monks are not higher than laypeople (is my opinion) .... S: Just to add a little more to the many good posts on this topic of the Vinaya- Firstly, your last comment on ‘higher’. In terms of following the techings, it depends on the wisdom developed. As I read the texts, the entire Tipitaka is about dhammas (realities). For example, in the Vinaya different degrees of unwholesomeness through deeds and speech are discussed and analysed. Without the development of understanding of dhammas, there cannot be any higher morality (adhi sila). We may intend never to break the precepts, for example, but unless the understanding of dhammas has reached the degree of a sotapanna’s, then adhi-sila hasn’t been perfected. In the same way, the undertaking and following of the rules for monks can only be perfected by those who’ve become enlightened. The Vinaya is not just talking about ‘ethical and practical rules monks should keep’ as I read it, though the language and emphasis is clearly different from the other parts of the Tipitaka. I think that the more we learn to appreciate the Buddha’s wisdom, the more we can read about it in all aspects and parts of the Teachings. Here’s another quote from the Atthasalini (PTS, Introductory Discourse): “In the first Pitaka (S: the Vinaya Pitaka) the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is of the corruption of craving and wrong views. And in each of them, the fourfold profuncity,viz, of the doctrine, of the meaning, of the exposition, and of intuition, should be understood. Herein ‘doctine’ (dhamma) means the text; ‘meaning’ (attha) the sense of the text; ‘exposition’ (desanaa) the verbal preaching of the text which has been borne in mind; and ‘penetration’ (pa.tivedha) is the understanding of the text and its meaning as they really are. And in these three Pitakas, inasmuch as it is difficult for the poor in understanding to comprehend or obtain a firm footing in these four things – just as it is difficult for hares and other small creatures to enter or obtain a firm footing in the great ocean – they are said to be profound. Thus in each Pitaka the fourfold profundity should be understood.” >J: - The way this commentary distinguishes 'higher thought' and 'higher > wisdom' is bizarre and incorrect .... S: By ‘higher thought, adhi-citta or higher concentration is meant. The commentary discusses how in the Vinaya, ‘the riddance of transgression’ is meant because ‘morality is opposed to transgressions’’. In the Sutta Pitaka, ‘the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions is meant’ because right concentration is opposed to ‘such tryanny’. In the Abhidhamma, ‘the riddance of latent bias is meant because understanding is opposed to it.’ In other words. We read about the benefits of being ‘well cultivated’ in the three Pitakas and then about the one who is ‘ill-trained’ in them. “But the bhikkhu, who is ill-trained in the Vinaya, imagines that there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because the touch of these is similar to that of blankets and cloaks, etc, which are pleasurable and are permitted by the Buddha......Consequently the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices. The bhikkhu, who is ill-trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the persons in the world,’ concerning which it has been said, ‘Owing to his wrong ideas, he accuses us, harms himself and produces much demerit.’ Consequently he arrives at wrong views. The bhikkhu, who is ill-trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to exces in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. For it has been said, ‘Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so.’ (A. ii 80). Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the three Pitakas, in due courses arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement.... Thus the three Pitakas by the knowledge of the scriptures in various ways are to be known as the Buddha’s word.” Metta, Sarah ======== 53279 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:23am Subject: The Foundation and Lay Movements (was Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Dear Joop, A last quick one I hope- --- Joop wrote: > A fourth point point is a question I asked you some weeks ago about > the 'Foundation' of Sujin. <...> > My question: do you (and does Sujin) see her 'Foundation' as a lay- > movement and can it be seen as a part of a bigger evolution of > Theravada? .... S: I don't really have much to say or add to Azita's comments. I think 'the 'Foundation' of Sujin' just grew and developed. For literally decades, she used to give regular lectures at a famous temple in Bankgok and at some other places. Friends would record these and after a while they were transmitted on the radio. People would want to donate money for the costs of this and the publishing of books etc. Gradually an organisation developed around these activities and other students would also start teaching or writing like Nina. People like Jon (then living in Bangkok) would help edit and distribute the books in English and Thai, a committee was formed and at some point the organisation would have had to be registered etc. Just a few years ago, an old friend and supporter donated the land for a building (which Azita referred to)and the activities and lectures are now mostly held at this new centre. I know that A.Sujin just does her best to help anyone interested to listen or study the teachings. I don't believe she is concerned about future lay movements or the future of Theravada Buddhism etc. She just does what she can now. None of us can predict the future and too much speculation takes us away from studying and understanding the teachings and helping others now in this regard, I believe. Someone else (James, I believe) mentioned this too, I think. I appreciate all your good works, Joop. I'm afraid I'm not much of an 'organisation' sort of person and didn't think I had anything to contribute on this question....but you've patiently asked me a few times and by experience, I know your qus don't go away:-). Metta, Sarah ========= 53280 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:36am Subject: Why a Tipitaka and is the Vinaya 'just rules'? (was Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, Tep, (James if you want to read a post of comy quotes only) & all, ... Dear Sarah, James, tep, all Sarah: I understand you (Joop and James) may not accept or agree with the commentaries, but you may like to consider some of the details before rejecting such comments as purely `metaphorical' Joop: I think the reaction of James was not exactly the same as mine. So now I only give my comment. I agree that my message about the counted 84,000 was a little ironic, so not so nice. But it was not 'rejecting'. When I say we can better understand a text from the Tipitaka as metaphorical rather than literal than that is not rejecting that text at all !!! Perhaps we can even say: metaphorical understanding is ultimare reality; literal is conceptual. Or, if you think the distinguisment ultimare-conceptual: 'Literal' is the exterior side of the truth, 'metaphorical' the interior side. Another topic in your Buddhaghosa-quote about the numer and order of the texts: What do you think of a more historical look on the composition of the Tipitaka? Like that of "Chronology of the Pali Canon" by Bimala Churn Law www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebsut053.htm (It will be no surprise to you that I prefer this historical decription, to me Buddhaghosa's one is - also very important - a mythical description of what has happened in the years after the death of the Buddha.) Thanks for your message # 53279. Metta Joop 53281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Andrew L, back from vacation nilovg Hello A.L. welcome back. I thought of you when you were absent. Perhaps you can share with us what appeals to you from the Dhammapada. Nina. op 08-12-2005 17:11 schreef ny_dhammika op nykfan11@...: > OK, I wasn't really on vacation. I was away for 60 days though, 53282 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation sarahprocter... Hi Joop, Here we were discussing M121 the Cuu.lasu~n~nata Sutta. --- Joop wrote: > First: you use the commentaries, old (Buddhaghosa ?) and Bhikkhu > Bodhi. ... S: I believe I mostly used B.Bodhi's translation of extracts from the ancient commentaries. .... >As I said some days ago: I'm not a priori convinced that the > commentators are right: Like all human beings they are scared to hear > unknown, uncomprehensible things, mystic texts. And then they try to > reduce or change the content of such a text in something they know > and understand, for example the phases of the 8 jhanas or the anatta > doctrine. I'm sure this theory is in general terms correct but I > don't know if it fits this Sutta. .... S: Assuming that we're both taling about the ancient commentators, I'd be interested to see any evidence for their 'being scared...'etc. Do you think you understand the suttas better? I don't know what you mean hear about the 8 jhanas or anatta. You'd have to explain. The comments make no sense to me, I'm afraid. .... > > Sarah: "1.The Buddha says:" `As formerly, Ananda, so now too I often > abide in voidness" ..... > Note: "`Su~n~nataavihaara....the fruition attainment of voidness, the > fruition attainment of arahantship that is entered by focusing upon > the void aspect of Nibbaana.'" > Joop: This commentator seems not interested in this first part of the > Sutta but jumps to the end. It neglects the peculiar sequence of the > begin: Perception of Village, of Human Beings, of Forest, of Earth? .... S: 'The commentator' is merely following the layout of the Sutta. The sutta starts with Ananda approaching the Buddha and asking if it's correct that the Buddha says 'I often abide in voidness' etc. In other words, the sutta starts with this statement about the Buddha's attainment and how he dwells frequently. .... <...> >J: Perhaps better is: when I climb a mountain > I'm not looking every second at the top of it, I prefer to look at > some point some hundred meter above me. So on my buddhistic path I > don't think every second on arahatship, stream-entry is the highest > point I'm thinking about, higher is just theory for me. .... S: Good - gradually we can even learn to appreciate teh path at just this moment. One step at a time, otherwise there's no way to reach the top of the mountain. This is why it always comes back to the understanding of present dhammas. .... > > Sarah: "I think it's very important to be clear that as Nyantiloka > states in his dictionary, in Theravada, su~n~na(adj) or su~n~nataa(n) > refers "exclusively to the anattaa doctrine, i.e the unsubstantiality > of all phenomena: `Void is the world...because it is void of a self > and anything belonging to a self' " > Joop: I'm so free to disagree. To me sunnata also refers to anicca ! > I repeat: emptiness is in my opinion more than no-self, it is no- > anything. ... S: Seeing is no-self, it is not 'no-anything'. Visible object is no-self, not 'no-anything'. Nibbana even is anatta, not 'no-anything'. They all have characteristics or sabhava. .... >J:To say it more objective: the same Nyatiloka > explains "anicca: 'impermanent' is THE FIRST of the three > characteristics of existence (tilakkhana, q.v.). It is from the fact > of impermanence that, in most texts, the other two characteristics, > suffering (dukkha) and not-self (anattá), are DERIVED (S. XXII, 15; > Ud. IV, I) .... S: Is this the Udana about Meghiya. Can you quote me the refs you are referring to? The ti-lakkhana (3 characteristics) of all conditioned dhammas. It's true that the dhamma which is impermanent is also unsatisfactory and cannot be considered as self. .... > And as I have said more: to me anicca is more important for my > buddhistic path then anatta. I was glad that Nina yesterday (#52687) > told me even Sujin is now teaching on anicca. So hip hir hip hurah > for anicca. ... S: I think she and all of us have always stressed the importance of understanding dhammas now which are so very, very fleeting. What we are used to considering as impermanence is an idea, not the characteristic of dhammas which can only be known when those dhammas are very clearly understood. For example, there cannot be any understanding of the impermanence of visible object if there is no understanding of visible object right now. .... >J: Concluding: your message gives me much information and - when I > understand it better - insight; but what is in your opinion the > function of the first part of the Sutta for a wordling reading it? > I think: for contemplation, not for getting in jhana as soon as > possible. ..... S: For appreciating the profundity of the Buddha's teachings and the depth of his wisdom. Not to try to emulate or follow as a method! Do you get those magic shows which carry a warning which says 'Don't try this at home!'. Same, don't try to attain the bliss of frution consciousness, but appreciate the 'show'! Metta, Sarah ======== 53283 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. nilovg Hi Tep, You ask this so kindly, I cannot resist. I also appreciated our dialogues, but threads are just now a little heavy, since these continue on and on, taking time to look up texts. I should give an explanation. Apart from Vis. extra work, we are preparing a kind of daana. Shortly before Christmas was my late father's birthday we used to celebrate with music. Now we prepare around that time a house concert for the nurses who very sweetly looked after him, always having equanimity inspite of difficult times. We want to show them our appreciation in this way. It means hard work, we have to rehearse. I hope others won't take it amiss if I do not answer all mails. op 09-12-2005 02:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I have pondered over the many dialogues we had in the past and do not > think we wasted our time. So, for the sake of the good dialogues in > the past, I hope you may consider answering my only question below. > Vism I, 10 : The dispensation's goodness in the beginning is shown by > virtue. ... Its goodness in the middle is shown by concentration. ... > Because of the passage 'The purifying of one's own mind -- this is the > Buddhas' dispensation'(DH.183), and because understanding is its > culmination, understanding is the end of the dispensation. [endquote] > > Question : Don't you see the order of sila, samadhi and then panna > (the "culmination" of the dispensation) in the above quote? ______ N: This text refers to the Dhammapada 183: not to do evil, to cultivate the good, to purify one's mind. The purification of citta has to come first. Otherwise the first two do not reach perfection. Your Vis. quote should be seen in the context: I, 10: < Here the training of higher virtue is shown by Virtue; the training of higher consciousness, by Concentration¹ and the training of higher understanding, by Understanding. . N: The three sekhas: higher virtue: adhisiila, adhicitta, adhi paññaa: these three are not without understanding of realities. They have to be accompanied by paññaa. Remember Howard's spiral post, posted here a few times. The three develop together and reenforce each other all the way. I tell you about my practice: when I first came to Kh Sujin, I still killed insects. She taught me Abhidhamma, about nama and rupa. This helped me to understand my own cittas more. When I saw more the ugliness of akusala, I stopped killing, by conditions. We do not stop siila but it develops more until we have reached the state of sotaapanna, and then there are no more conditions for killing or heavy akusala kamma. ------ I quote more of the Vis. text: ------ See the connection of siila and purification: virtue that is quite pruified. Then many aspects are shown: < And the abandoning of defilements by substitution of opposites is shown by Virtue that by suppression is shown by Concentration; and that by cutting off is shown by Understanding.> The beginning, middle and end has many aspects. I see it more as a spiral, not so much as : first keep the five precepts, etc. It is a deep teaching. The co to the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, § 30, Topsy-turvey, avakujja-pañño I, 129), gives many more aspects of the teachings being lovely in the beginning, middle and end: siila, samaadhi and vipassanaa. samaadhi, vipassanaa, magga. vipassanaa, magga, phala. Magga, phala, nibbaana. Then in pairs: siila-samaadhi, vipassanaa-magga, phala-nibbaana **** This to show that there are many aspects to this subject, classified in many ways. ------ I quote from the Vis just a few more aspects: , <13. Likewise prevention of defilements¹ transgression is shown by Virtue; prevention of obsession [by defilement] is shown by Concentration; prevention of inherent tendencies is shown by Understanding. 14. Likewise the reason for the states of Stream-entry and Once-return is shown by Virtue; that for the state of Non-return, by Concentration; that for Arahantship, by Understanding. For the Stream-enterer is called ŒPerfected in the Œkinds of virtue¹; and likewise the Once-returner. But the Non-returner is called ŒPerfected in concentration¹. And the Arahant is called ŒPerfected in understanding¹ (See A.i, 233).> The non-returner has no more attachment to sense objects, it is his nature to be calm. At the end the Co to the above quoted sutta makes a comment to the words of the Sutta : The Co states :< All Buddhas when they explain this, proclaim the most excellent Path consisting of eight factors together with the three trainings which are the highest conduct.> The three sekhas are the three divisions of the eightfold Path, developed together, not without sammaadi.t.thi of the eightfold Path, otherwise it would not be the eightfold Path. **** Nina. 53284 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 3:13am Subject: Vipassana and Abhidhamma (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation kenhowardau Hi Joop, -------------------------- J: > I will send an other quote from Ven. Sujiva's ebook to make clear the positive relation between Abhidhamma-study and doing (formal) vipassana meditation. Not to convince you or others but simple to give information of another way of practice. > -------------------------- Thanks Joop, I think Ven. Sujiva gives some good explanations of Abhidhamma, but then (in my opinion) he makes the same mistakes made by all other formal meditation teachers. He thinks vipassana is a matter of trying not to have concepts and trying to catch realities. In your opinion, does the article contain any points in favour of formal practice that have not already been thoroughly discussed on DSG? Ken H 53285 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 3:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo (James, and Nina) - > > James had his view and he expressed it clearly. He was right about > training of monks from the beginning. When you were in school you > started with simple arithmetic like addition, subtraction, > multiplication, and division. Arithmetric, algebra, and calculus are > not "grouped as three" for the purpose of teaching. > > Regards, > > > Tep ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep ( Nina, James, and all ), I would go in a bit deep into this matter. Let us see the training. I know what you want to mean in case of beginner. Beginners have to be taught in a way that they all can understand and comply what they have been taught. But in case of real training (the training to attain arahatta magga naana), the grouping of 'siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa' is just for teaching purpose. It is not siila is first, then samaadhi has to follow and finally pannaa. Example; If there is no samaadhi, one will never ever perfect siila. As soon as samaadhi is off, siila is not perfect. This already mean that siila and samaadhi in perfection go hand in hand. Likewise pannaa is the same. Without pannaa, one cannot perfect siila and without panna, one cannot attain samaadhi. If one thinks that 'This is siila. I have fulfilled this siila. Now I am going to fill in samaadhi. OK now I get the necessary samaadhi. Now I have siila and samaadhi. But I do not have pannaa. So I am just going to try to develop panna,' then it is totally wrong. Because there is idea of self which is wrong view. Wrong view will not perfect any pannaa at all. I know that the beginners have to be taught that 'This is addition, this is substraction, this is multiplication, and this is division. Now as they all know 'these simple lessons' further lessons on calculus and algebra will have to be taught. This might be true for teaching purpose. But this is not for training purpose to attain arahatta magga naana at all. Q1. Do you think that 'siila can be perfected without panna'? Q2. Do you think that 'siila can separately be perfected without panna? Q3. Do you think that 'samaadhi can be perfected without pannaa'? Q4. Do you think that 'samaadhi can separately be perfected without panna? Q5. Do you think that 'samaadhi can be perfected without siila'? Q6. Do you think that 'samaadhi can separately be perfected without siila'? Q7. Do you think that 'pannaa can be perfected without siila'? Q8. Do you think that 'pannaa can separately be perfected without siila'? Q9. Do you think that 'pannaa can be perfected without samaadhi? Q10.Do you think that 'pannaa can separately be perfected without samaadhi'? Q11.Do you think that 'siila can be perfected without samaadhi'? Q12.Do you think that 'siila can separately be perfected without samaadhi'? May you all be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53286 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 3:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > You ask this so kindly, I cannot resist. I also appreciated our dialogues, > but threads are just now a little heavy, since these continue on and on, > taking time to look up texts. > I should give an explanation. Apart from Vis. , otherwise it > would not be the eightfold Path. > **** > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, We appreciate the time and you. And thanks for your extensive explanation on Dhamma with regard to three training. With respect, Htoo Naing 53287 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 4:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina (and James, Htoo) - > > > > > > Question : Don't you see the order of sila, samadhi and then panna > > (the "culmination" of the dispensation) in the above quote? > > Hallo Tep, James, Nina, Htoo Joop: A good question, although a little retoric, because the answer can only be 'yes' But shouldn't it be better to have another way of thinking instead of 'order': that is linear thinking. To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for example) sila - samadhi - panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path. Just as I had to pay attention to the links of Dependent Origination. Isn't there a Sutta about cyclic thinking? Metta Joop --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop ( Tep, Nina, James, and all ), If interested would you like to have a look at 12 questions that I posted today as a reply to Tep. Please kindly check there whether siila, samaadhi and panna go separately or together. I do say this grouping is for the purpose of teaching and not exactly for the purpose of real training to attain insight knowledge that is arahatta magga naana. Here I will ask more questions and this also applies to Tep and others who want to answer. Q1. Is siila perfect without panna? Q2. Is siila perfect without samaadhi? I will ask you only two. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53288 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 4:15am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) htootintnaing ................... >James: > So, I am beginning to pull away from all of that…and as a consequence pull away from something that was also an intrinsic part of myself… Hope that answers your question- somewhat. Tep: You have answered me well. But boredom doesn't last long. I have been bored by my own nama and rupa, but after that I become attached to them again. Regards, Tep ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, James, and all, James created two Gods. One is naama and another is ruupa. This will not be fit for theists. God will have 'will' 'wish'. Naama-ruupaa do not have any 'will' any 'wish'. God is nicca (in theists' mind) Naama-ruupa are not nicca. They are anicca. God punishes beings sometimes (tsunami, katrina, ..) Naama-ruupa never punish any beings. God award beings with what they are longing for. Naama-ruupa do not award any being. As everything is different Naama-ruupa can never be God. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53289 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 4:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 588 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, sammaa-ditthi, sammaa-sankappa sammaa-vaacaa, samaa-kammanta, samaa-aajiiva sammaa-vaayama, samaa-sati, samaa-samaadhi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The fourth truth that Noble ones develop is the Path leading to cessation of suffering. It is the truth of Path. It is magga saccaa. It is 'dukkha-nirodha-pa.tipadaa-gaaminii-ariya-saccaa' or simply magga saccaa. There are eight limbs in that Path. They are in Paa.li as above that is 'sammaa-ditthi, sammaa-sankappa, sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanta, sammaa-aajiiva, sammaa-vaayama, sammaa-sati, and sammaa-samaadhi'. They are 1. right view 2. right thinking 3. right speech 4. right action 5. right livelihood 6. right effort 7. right mindfulness 8. right concentration. Right view, right thinking, and right speech have been discussed in the previous posts under the heading of Dhamma Threads. In thisn post, sammaa-kammanta or right action will be discussed. The Buddha said, 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaakammanto? Paa.naatipaataa veramanii, adinnaadaanaa veramanii, kaamesumacchaacaaraa veramanii, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaakammanto.' 'Which is right action? Not killing beings, not stealing things that are not given, not practising wrongly at sensual things, these can be called right action. If someone misuse or misconduct in sensual things like inappropriate sex, drinking intoxicant they are doing wronly in senses. If they have to do rightly they have to see them as naama and ruupa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53290 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > ... Hallo Htoo, Nina, Tep, all Joop (yesterday) :"To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for example) sila - samadhi - panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path." Htoo: "If interested would you like to have a look at 12 questions that I posted today as a reply to Tep. Please kindly check there whether siila, samaadhi and panna go separately or together. I do say this grouping is for the purpose of teaching and not exactly for the purpose of real training to attain insight knowledge that is arahatta magga naana. Here I will ask more questions and this also applies to Tep and others who want to answer. Q1. Is siila perfect without panna? Q2. Is siila perfect without samaadhi? I will ask you only two." Joop: I agreed with Nina who used the term "spiral" better than my term "cycle: And I agree with you, Htoo. Your 12 question are retoric too: the answer to all must be "no". But you were making the questions to easy because who talked about "perfect". I am not talking about "perfect" : I do some steps today, one step back to-morrow and two steps again the day after tomorrow. So your questions had to be, to make them difficult and pedagogically inspiring: Q1. Is starting with siila possible without having any panna? Q2. Is starting with siila possible without having any samaadhi? Etc. Another question to you, not retoric: I perceive "siila, samaadhi and panna" only as headers and translate them to the eight aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path. Is that correct? Metta Joop 53291 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 6:08am Subject: Vipassana and Abhidhamma (Was: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ... Hallo Ken Ken: "I think Ven. Sujiva gives some good explanations of Abhidhamma, but then (in my opinion) he makes the same mistakes made by all other formal meditation teachers. He thinks vipassana is a matter of trying not to have concepts and trying to catch realities." Joop: that's not a mistake but a method, but we will not agree about that. Ken: In your opinion, does the article contain any points in favour of formal practice that have not already been thoroughly discussed on DSG?" Joop: Of course I don't know that, I have not read all DSG- discussions. But I think one point is rather new: most (if not all) DSG-discussions are theoretically about the socalled 'formal practice' and this appendix combined with his book is about doing it. You may (if you want) the last word in this thread. Metta Joop 53292 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 6:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. It is about what comes first. buddhistmedi... Dear friend Joop (and others) - The order of Sila, Samadhi, and Panna (in the sense of abandoning - Parinna) is important for two reasons: 1. Vinaya and Patimokkha Sila must come first before a "raw" monk may develop unification and nondistraction of the consciousness(citta) and appreciate right view (truly seeing & knowing the four noble truths). 2. The wisdom to investigate the dhamma (dhamma vicaya), and abandon things that should be abandon is beyond the rookies (newcomers to the Sangha). Of course, when the monk is more learned, and has better skills, the order of Sila-Samadhi-Panna is not "linear" anymore. But Panna has several levels, where Parinna is at the top. Thank you for your nice attention to this very important issue that seems to be overlooked by some wise DSG members. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina (and James, Htoo) - > > > > > > Question : Don't you see the order of sila, samadhi and then panna > > (the "culmination" of the dispensation) in the above quote? > > > > Hallo Tep, James, Nina, Htoo > > Joop: A good question, although a little retoric, because the answer > can only be 'yes' > But shouldn't it be better to have another way of thinking instead > of 'order': that is linear thinking. > To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for example) sila - samadhi - > panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of > the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path. > Just as I had to pay attention to the links of Dependent Origination. > Isn't there a Sutta about cyclic thinking? > > Metta > > Joop > 53293 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 10:50am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 53294 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya: Khun Sujin, Howard, and the Buddha. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - You are very kind to sacrifice some personal comfort (long typing is painful) and spare your valuable time (despite your busy schedule preparing for the Holidays and Thailand) to answer silly questions of mine. May you and the whole family have a great holiday time. {:->)) ......................... In a discussion there is a main issue and there are sideline issues. An idea that is wrong with regard to the main issue may look right with respect to a sideline issue, but one may be misled by that distraction. So one has be careful what one is discussing. >N: The three sekhas: higher virtue: adhisiila, adhicitta, adhi paññaa: these three are not without understanding of realities. They have to be accompanied by paññaa. Remember Howard's spiral post, posted here a few times. The three develop together and reenforce each other all the way. Tep: Our main issue is about whether there is a clear order or sequence in the practice of Sila, Samadhi, and Panna recommended by the Buddha for new monks (or lay Buddhists). Some side issues that are related to the main issue are: i) there are several levels of understanding (wisdom, panna) and that means we have to develop understanding in stages ; ii) the highest level of understanding is that of the Arahant; it is not overlapping with understandings of other ariyans or worldlings; iii) sila, samadhi, and panna can be jointly developed -- the "spiral model" of Howard, as you have suggested. I understand that Howard does not deny the order that sila and samadhi drive panna in his spiral model. But does this model explain how "the three develop together and reenforce each other all the way"? For example, does panna drive both sila and samadhi as well as driving itself, but not the other way around? Or does sila drive samadhi and samadhi drives panna, then the higher panna drives both sila and samadhi up higher in the next round? etc. etc. There are several possibilities. It is too complicated ! Let our Lord Buddha be our guide! What did the Buddha say about joint-development of sila-samadhi-panna? Did Howard and Khun Sujin know something the Buddha did not know? Nyanatiloka Dictionary: ------------------------ This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samádhi, panná). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: ... ... "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (ásava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kámásava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjásava). Tep: It is clear to me, according to the above sutta quote, that there is a clear order in the 3-fold training of sila, samdhi, and panna. One has to be "endowed" with morality before concentration may "bring high fruit and blessing", and so on. The sutta does say : Being endowed with wisdom, the mind is free from asava. This is the wisdom (panna) of the Arahant but it is the consequence of being endowed with both morality and concentration. Perfect C results from perfect A + perfect B. Then C and A and B are all perfect. It is sequential in the macro scale, there can be loopings (nonlinear interections) in the micro scale. .................. >N: I tell you about my practice: when I first came to Kh Sujin, I still killed insects. She taught me Abhidhamma, about nama and rupa. This helped me to understand my own cittas more. When I saw more the ugliness of akusala, I stopped killing, by conditions. We do not stop siila but it develops more until we have reached the state of sotaapanna, and then there are no more conditions for killing or heavy akusala kamma. Tep: The stopping of insect killing is not adhisila-sikkha. This elementary level of good deed doesn't pertain to only Buddhists. Can your understanding alone drive both sila and samadhi to adhisila and adhicitta? How would you get to a higher level of adhipanna without the support of higher sila and higher samadhi? If you can genuinely say that you now have 'parinna of the bandoning kind' and that you also have gained both adhisila and adhicitta through panna as the main driver from the beginning, then the case is close. I would have no more questions to ask, if that was the case. .................. Epilogue: --------- >N: The beginning, middle and end has many aspects. I see it more as a spiral, not so much as : first keep the five precepts, etc. It is a deep teaching. The co to the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, § 30, Topsy-turvey, avakujja-pañño I, 129), gives many more aspects of the teachings being lovely in the beginning, middle and end: siila, samaadhi and vipassanaa. samaadhi, vipassanaa, magga. vipassanaa, magga, phala. Magga, phala, nibbaana. Then in pairs: siila-samaadhi, vipassanaa-magga, phala-nibbaana **** This to show that there are many aspects to this subject, classified in many ways. > Tep: Let this stubborn man, whose belief is based on the Buddha's Teachings only, respectfully point out to you that he clearly sees sequential orders embedded in the above "teachings being lovely in the beginning, middle and end" as follows. How do I see the sequence? -- 'Siila, samaadhi and vipassana' means with sila and samadhi as the foundation, vipassana will bring high fruits and blessing. --'samaadhi, vipassanaa, magga' means with samadhi and vipassana as the foundation, magga will bring high fruits and blessing. -- 'vipassanaa, magga, phala' means with vipassana and magga as the foundation. phala will bring high fruits and blessing. -- 'Magga, phala, nibbaana' means with magga and phala fully developed, Nibbana is the result. -- 'siila-samaadhi, vipassanaa-magga, phala-nibbaana' means with the first two pairs being fully developed, phala will bring Nibbana. Peace and Wisdom, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > You ask this so kindly, I cannot resist. I also appreciated our dialogues, > but threads are just now a little heavy, since these continue on and on, > taking time to look up texts. > I should give an explanation. Apart from Vis. extra work, we are preparing > a kind of daana. > Shortly before Christmas was my late father's birthday we used to celebrate > with music. Now we prepare around that time a house concert for the nurses > who very sweetly looked after him, always having equanimity inspite of > difficult times. We want to show them our appreciation in this way. It means > hard work, we have to rehearse. I hope others won't take it amiss if I do > not answer all mails. > (snipped) 53295 From: wayne Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 10:18am Subject: msg fm metta metta10 Hello to all from the midwestern USA! I have been a student of Theravada Vipassana since I got out of the hospital in 1993. I am 59 years old, homebound handicapped since 1989, and have two children and three grand children. I learned about this group when Andrew gave the sumary of Ven. Analayo's book on the Satipatthana. I took a year long course in Insight Meditation from Barre, MA in 1993. My nickname is "Metta" Metta to all! Wayne "Metta" 53296 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 2:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > ... > > Hallo Htoo, Nina, Tep, all > > Joop (yesterday) :"To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for example) > sila - samadhi - > panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of > the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path." Another question to you, not retoric: I perceive "siila, samaadhi and > panna" only as headers and translate them to the eight aspect of the > Noble Eightfold Path. Is that correct? > > Metta > > Joop --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, That is why I said teaching purpose. Yes there are three heading. My questions were planned so that they did not contain flaws. For that I had to include 'perfect'. If still not perfect one that is if we are not talking NEP then we are right. That is we can start with siila as a simple step. Examples; Htoo as a child keep away from killing not because he knew with full wisdom but because he believed it is wrong morally to kill others and he believed that elders taught the right thing. There is no concentration like jhaana. So it is siila training. Htoo started to concentrate. His mind became calm and settled down and stayed there in the object and contemplated that there was no trace of unwholesome things. So this is samaadhi training. Pannaa training goes separately by studying deeper and deeper through many different methods including meditation (not formal one but what experienced as objects are taken). So this is pannaa training. But none of these three are NEP. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: When I snipped I think your questions were also wrongly deleted. If I have to answer I might answer yes. Because you mentioned as beginner. My questions are as you said rhetoric (? I dont know the spelling. I always confuse rhetoric, euphemism, ironic, ellipsis? ) 53297 From: connie Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi, Joop, Sarah and Larry: <> Connie: I keep asking! (Uh, Joop recently quoted*) Ven. Vajita, in part: <> hmmm... bhava'nga. precedent. suspended animation. is this pure mind dark or light? It is citta-cetasika. Is it bodhi or tatha or tathaa? Wake UP & follow your dreams, then? One answer: citta has radiance or clarity or illuminating the field; cetasikas are the adventitious defilement of citta. Another: the internal and external "sense-object" (aaramma.na) defiles. Another note from UP browsing under Proximate cause {17034, 25072, 33905}, Joop. It goes along with what Ven Vajita mentions: <> Maybe we will see the black ox of du.t.tha and white shade of sukha again when we get to Vis XVII 72, 73 on predominance and proximity conditions. I don't think I want to kick it around the dojo any more right now, though. peace, connie 53298 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 3:33pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 philofillet Hi Nina and all > Soun: Just a moment ago we spoke about thinking, which is of the level of > pariyatti. Would you please explain the difference between patipatti and > pativedha? Ph: Could someone post a link to the post Sukin wrote about this topic, that Nina and Lodewijk discussed in some details? I've lost it, though I imagine I could find it in UPs. > Sujin: I just explained about dosa that everyone knows, but people think > that it is self who is angry. However, when sati arises the characteristic > of dosa appears and they will begin to gradually understand that that > characteristic is just a reality, a dhamma. Ph: But we should remember that until the first tender insight vipasanna-nana at which nama is known from rupa, this dosa will always be "my dosa" and there isn't *really* any detachment from it. > We > should thoroughly know everything that appears now, be it colour, sound or > thinking. Satipatth¡¦a should be aware of all realities so that it can be > understood that everything is truly dhamma. Ph: As I've posted before, I am wary of these "shoulds" that are used sometimes by A. Sujin - perhaps it is a translation issue, but the "should" in English, in my opinion, can really throw people off. As we know, there are people that think they "should" try hard to be aware of every reality occuring, which throws them way off the path. So, personallly, I would think something like "satipatthana can be aware of all realities" would be better - like the "can be understood" that follows. IMO. Of course, A.Sujin's audience understands the way A. Sujin means "should" but people who are not familiar with her talks might take it the wrong way. Satipatthana *can* arise, we *can* thoroughly know everything that appears now, but if we think we should make it happen now by doing this or that we will have lost the opportunity to develop satipatthana. > There are many degrees of paññæÐ PaññæÂbased on listening to the > Dhamma is still very weak, it knows the meaning and the names of the > different notions, thus, only concepts. However, when someone has listened > and understood a great deal, it can be the condition for understanding the > characteristic of sammæÏsati which is aware of a reality that has arisen and > appears Ph: We listen, and reflect, and discuss and listen, and listen and listen, and read, always reflecting, always reflecting, when reflecting arises, and it sinks in and it sinks in and PING! it clicks. But then it's gone. We can't put it in our pocket to have it the next time we want. No way to speed this up. Patience. Thanks for these posts, Nina. Will this Dhamma in Cambodia be in book form? I hope so. I cling to book form! Phil 53299 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Why a Tipitaka and is the Vinaya 'just rules'? (was Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Nina, James, Htoo, and Joop) - I must borrow Nina's words "I can't resist" to describe my urge in writing this uninvited message. It is related to Nina's post on Vinaya. Let me pick a number of key points that interest me (those in 2. and 3., are from the Atthasalini): 1. S: We may intend never to break the precepts, for example, but unless the understanding of dhammas has reached the degree of a sotapanna's, then adhi-sila hasn't been perfected. In the same way, the undertaking and following of the rules for monks can only be perfected by those who've become enlightened. 2. "In the first Pitaka (S: the Vinaya Pitaka) the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is of the corruption of craving and wrong views. ... " 3. "The bhikkhu, who is ill-trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. For it has been said, `Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so.' (A. ii 80) " Tep's Comments: ------------------------- 1. Are you suggesting that we should neglect developing sila because it will be taken care of when we become Sotapanna? But how would we become Sotapanna without perfect sila first? Nina would say "No sequential development. Not the five precepts first, then this and then that". Nina would also say "Develop sila-smadhi-panna jointly". That's not practical : vinaya and sila come first , because they are things to do, things to strictly follow to establish a foundation for higher trainings. [ "There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. .."] If the monk breaks his vinaya rules he will be in trouble, or will have to disrobe. Concentration takes more time to develop, and therefore it can be developed along with sila and other basic dhammas (e.g. satipatthana). When it is well developed it becomes the basis for higher understandings (e.g. yathabhuta-nana-dassana). Higher understandings will then bring high fruits and blessings such as magga and phala. The Visuddhimagga explains all this very well. But, according to Nina, I just don't know how to "interpret" the Buddhaghosa's words. {:<|) Please note in the following sutta quote that perfect sila is "for the purification of the mind that is impure, for the cleansing of the mind that is umclean". "Furthermore, he is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. This is the fourth pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, for the purification of the mind that is impure, for the cleansing of the mind that is unclean." ... ... ... "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' [AN V.179 : Gihi Sutta The Householder] Tep: Why did the Buddha not say "unless the understanding of dhammas has reached the degree of a sotapanna's, then adhi-sila hasn't been perfected" ? 2. and 3. Do you think the commentary says that if the Vianaya is skipped, the monk can never eradicate the corruption of conduct? Or does it suggest that the monk can start with the Abhidhamma-pitaka to get rid of the corruption of wrong views; and as a consequence the corruption of misconduct and the corruption of craving would be automatically eliminated? Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, Tep, (James if you want to read a post of comy quotes only) & > all, > (snipped) > > Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the three Pitakas, in due courses > arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong > views, mental derangement.... > > Thus the three Pitakas by the knowledge of the scriptures in various ways are to be known as the Buddha's word." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > 53300 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammapada lbidd2 Hi Connie, Re. adventitious defilements and pure mind, I usually think of "pure mind" as nibbana, but I can see consciousness as pure, in a sense. Bhavanga cittas are a little more difficult. I saw another trans. today that gave "dhammaa" as "ideas" but didn't indicate what citta is other than as "mind". Ultimately I don't think anything is adventitious in the sense of being not intrinsic to itself, but everything is adventitious in the sense of being not intrinsic to something else. Larry 53301 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 5:32pm Subject: Vism.XIV,206 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 206. Furthermore, the profitable of the sense sphere is gross; that of the fine-material sphere is subtle; next to which the immaterial, and next the supramundane [should be similarly compared]. That of the sense sphere is gross in giving, while it is subtle in virtue; next, that in development. Also, that in development is gross with two root-causes, while with three root-causes it is subtle. Also that with three root-causes is gross when prompted, while it is subtle when unprompted. That of the fine-material sphere is gross in the first jhana, [while it is subtle in the second jhana. That also of the second jhana is gross] ... of the fifth jhana is subtle. And that of the immaterial sphere associated with the base consisting of boundless space is gross ... that associated with the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is subtle only. And the supramundane associated with the stream-entry path is gross ... that associated with the Arahant path is subtle only. The same method applies also to resultant and functional feeling in the various planes and to feeling stated according to pain, etc., according to one with no attainment, etc., and according to that subject to cankers, and so on. ********************* 206. apica kaamaavacarakusalaa o.laarikaa. ruupaavacaraa sukhumaa. tato aruupaavacaraa. tato lokuttaraa. kaamaavacaraa daanamayaa o.laarikaa. siilamayaa sukhumaa. tato bhaavanaamayaa. bhaavanaamayaapi duhetukaa o.laarikaa. tihetukaa sukhumaa. tihetukaapi sasa"nkhaarikaa o.laarikaa. asa"nkhaarikaa sukhumaa. ruupaavacaraa ca pa.thamajjhaanikaa o.laarikaa...pe0... pa~ncamajjhaanikaa sukhumaa. aruupaavacaraa ca aakaasaana~ncaayatanasampayuttaa o.laarikaa...pe0... nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanasampayuttaa sukhumaava. lokuttaraa ca sotaapattimaggasampayuttaa o.laarikaa...pe0... arahattamaggasampayuttaa sukhumaava. esa nayo ta.m ta.m bhuumivipaakakiriyavedanaasu ca dukkhaadiasamaapannaadisaasavaadivasena vuttavedanaasu ca. 53302 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya - Step-by-step to Arahantship buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (and all) - Thank you for participating in the discussion. >Htoo: I would go in a bit deep into this matter. Let us see the training. I know what you want to mean in case of beginner. Beginners have to be taught in a way that they all can understand and comply what they have been taught. > Tep: Agreed. Training of new monks (see AN V.114) was the main point of my discussion with Nina at the beginning. ................... >Htoo: But in case of real training (the training to attain arahatta magga naana), the grouping of 'siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa' is just for teaching purpose. It is not siila is first, then samaadhi has to follow and finally pannaa. Tep: Although I am not interested in training for arahatta magga now, can you give me a few suttas as reference? By the way, Nina and you and Sarah and Jon ... say the same thing that I believe when each of the three items (sila, samadhi, panna) is developed in isolation. This is silly. I only say that sila is first of the dispensation, samadhi is in the middle, and the end result is the parinna (full understanding) that abandons all kilesa. See AN XI.1 below . Also read the Visuddhimagga, Chapter I. My other posts also discuss this order/sequence of practice that is not so naive like you and others think. ...................... >H: Example; If there is no samaadhi, one will never ever perfect siila. As soon as samaadhi is off, siila is not perfect. This already mean that siila and samaadhi in perfection go hand in hand. T: You are backtracking. You should have said that without sila as a supporting condition, there is no samadhi (concentration). Below is one passage of a sutta for you to read. The Buddha affirmatively said in this discourse, "skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship." This is a solid proof that "order" ("A" comes first, then "B" later) is important. The same idea is seen in Paticcasamuppada ('Avijja pacaya sankhara', etc.), and yet the Dependent Origination process is far from being a simple linear sequence. AN XI.1: I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?" "Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward." "And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?" "Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." "And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" "Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." "And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" "Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." "And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" "Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." "And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" "Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward." ... ... ... [skipped] "Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. "In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-001.html ............................. >H: Likewise pannaa is the same. Without pannaa, one cannot perfect siila and without panna, one cannot attain samaadhi. T: True, a body without a head cannot walk. ....................... >H: If one thinks that 'This is siila. I have fulfilled this siila. Now I am going to fill in samaadhi. OK now I get the necessary samaadhi. Now I have siila and samaadhi. But I do not have pannaa. So I am just going to try to develop panna,' then it is totally wrong. Because there is idea of self which is wrong view. Wrong view will not perfect any pannaa at all. Tep: I am glad I don't think like that. :-)) ............................ >H: I know that the beginners have to be taught that 'This is addition, this is substraction, this is multiplication, and this is division. Now as they all know 'these simple lessons' further lessons on calculus and algebra will have to be taught. This might be true for teaching purpose. But this is not for training purpose to attain arahatta magga naana at all. T: How come do you claim to know the "training purpose to attain arahatta magga naana"? The following is what I know is the "practice and guideline" for a monk who aspires for arahantship. "If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment- release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&- now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [AN X.71 Akankha Sutta] Tep: Dear Friend Htoo, please carefully note the total-release process that starts with "brings the precepts to perfection". This is a simple instruction that everyone, young or old, with a high I.Q or a low I.Q., should understand. Nobody can deny that sila comes first and high- level insights come much later before the "ending of mental fermentations" can be expected. In between sila and the paccavekkhana-nana there is for sure concentration through jhana. So you should see the beginning, the middle, and the end of the dispensation that has nothing to do with the requirement that the path connecting the three has to be linear (a straight line). ...................... Hatoo's quiz (thank you!) --------------------------- Q1. Do you think that 'siila can be perfected without panna'?. Q2. Do you think that 'siila can separately be perfected without panna? Q3. Do you think that 'samaadhi can be perfected without pannaa'? Q4. Do you think that 'samaadhi can separately be perfected without panna? Q5. Do you think that 'samaadhi can be perfected without siila'? Q6. Do you think that 'samaadhi can separately be perfected without siila'? Q7. Do you think that 'pannaa can be perfected without siila'? Q8. Do you think that 'pannaa can separately be perfected without siila'? Q9. Do you think that 'pannaa can be perfected without samaadhi? Q10.Do you think that 'pannaa can separately be perfected without samaadhi'? Q11.Do you think that 'siila can be perfected without samaadhi'? Q12.Do you think that 'siila can separately be perfected without samaadhi'? Tep: An easy quiz. 'No' is the only answer for all the questions. What do I think I have learned from this quiz? Nothing. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo (James, and Nina) - > > > > James had his view and he expressed it clearly. He was right about > > training of monks from the beginning. When you were in school you > > started with simple arithmetic like addition, subtraction, > > multiplication, and division. Arithmetric, algebra, and calculus > are > > not "grouped as three" for the purpose of teaching. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep ( Nina, James, and all ), > > I would go in a bit deep into this matter. Let us see the training. > (snipped) 53303 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 7:16pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya - Step-by-step to Arahantship buddhistmedi... Hi, all - A simple error that must be removed was found later. Please correct it for me. Old Sentence: "By the way, Nina and you and Sarah and Jon ... say the same thing that I believe when each of the three items (sila, samadhi, panna) is developed in isolation." New Sentence: "By the way, Nina and you and Sarah and Jon ... say the same thing that I believe that each of the three items (sila, samadhi, panna) is developed in isolation." Thank you. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo (and all) - > > Thank you for participating in the discussion. > > >Htoo: I would go in a bit deep into this matter. Let us see the training. > I know what you want to mean in case of beginner. Beginners have to > be taught in a way that they all can understand and comply what they > have been taught. > > > (snipped) 53304 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 7:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Dear Joop (and Htoo, etc.) - There are so many posts that were generated in the one-week period under this thread. I am sorry that I skipped some of your interesting posts. The points you made below interest me most and so I am responding to them one by one. > > Joop (yesterday) :"To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for example) > sila - samadhi - panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path." > Tep: The following MN 117 passage clearly reveals the sequential process of the NEP -- its linearity. "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten." Tep: But the same sutta also shows "running and circling" of the three factors, sammaditthi, sammasati, and sammavayama, around the first five Path fartors. Such circling and non-sequential change from one of the five factors to another in the group indicate non-linearity. 1. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view. 2. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right resolve. [... .... and so on to the fifth factor:] 5. "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right livelihood. ........................................... > Joop: I agreed with Nina who used the term "spiral" better than my > term "cycle: And I agree with you, Htoo. > Your 12 question are retoric too: the answer to all must be "no". > But you were making the questions to easy because who talked > about "perfect". I am not talking about "perfect" : I do some steps > today, one step back to-morrow and two steps again the day after > tomorrow. Tep: The habit of talking about perfect things is difficult to change. The 'spiral' or 'cycle' are nothing but some abstraction or "model". They don't mean much for practitioners. .................... > Joop: Another question to you, not retoric: I perceive "siila, samaadhi and panna" only as headers and translate them to the eight aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path. Is that correct? > Tep: If we don't know which is which, how can we understand the dispensation (Buddha-sassana)? Regards, Tep =========== 53305 From: connie Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 8:24pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada? nichiconn Hi again Sarah, * Connie, good to see all your discussion threads and hope this means you're doing better health-wise. :> lol, couldn't be better, sarah. thanks. * From a comment in a message to Larry, I wondered if you hadn't seen this post I wrote with a couple of Dhp commentary notes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52987 :> Shuffling after your Netti guards (104), I found an explanation for the title "dhammapada" at 317 and another sit up reminder at the end of 318 in the Pitaka-Disclosure: <<317. Herein, what is the [Mode of Conveying] Footings? The victor teaches an idea, And also what has that idea As Footing: so with all ideas: This is the Mode Conveying Footings. [...] Bodily crookedness is a footing for view. Bodily fault (dosa) is a footing for hate(dosa). Bodily coloration is a footing for greed. 319. Or [in fact when] any idea arises by means of any object, whether the idea is expressed in terms of creatures or expressed in terms of ideas (see $43-5), its footing is accordingly that whereby that idea arises with an object.>> * Also, why not consider putting a pic of yr mum, daughter and her baby in the 'Signif Others'? With you would be even better....Maybe you could set a Xmas pic gift trend:-). :> if the kids make it over for xmas, you might get your picture then, but is it bright to add more dimwit to the album? Meanwhile, this is beautiful: << Pitaka Disclosure 329. [Again:] No one turns back time for devotion, and while Feelings there are not [yet] overwhelming, let one keep in being The path proclaimed by the Seer [which is] the state of safety From suffering that has shaken off dirt and taints> ( ). What is the Blessed One's here? It is that those who are afflicted by pain will instigate energy for the exhaustion of suffering. This is the Blessed One's purport here. >> peace, connie 53306 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 11:45pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo (James, and Nina) - > > > > James had his view and he expressed it clearly. He was right about > > training of monks from the beginning. When you were in school you > > started with simple arithmetic like addition, subtraction, > > multiplication, and division. Arithmetric, algebra, and calculus > are > > not "grouped as three" for the purpose of teaching. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep ( Nina, James, and all ), > > I would go in a bit deep into this matter. Let us see the training. > > I know what you want to mean in case of beginner. Beginners have to > be taught in a way that they all can understand and comply what they > have been taught. > > But in case of real training (the training to attain arahatta magga > naana), the grouping of 'siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa' is just for > teaching purpose. > > It is not siila is first, then samaadhi has to follow and finally > pannaa. > > Example; If there is no samaadhi, one will never ever perfect siila. > As soon as samaadhi is off, siila is not perfect. This already mean > that siila and samaadhi in perfection go hand in hand. > > Likewise pannaa is the same. Without pannaa, one cannot perfect siila > and without panna, one cannot attain samaadhi. > > If one thinks that 'This is siila. I have fulfilled this siila. Now > I am going to fill in samaadhi. OK now I get the necessary samaadhi. > Now I have siila and samaadhi. But I do not have pannaa. So I am > just going to try to develop panna,' then it is totally wrong. > Because there is idea of self which is wrong view. Wrong view will > not perfect any pannaa at all. > > I know that the beginners have to be taught that 'This is addition, > this is substraction, this is multiplication, and this is division. > Now as they all know 'these simple lessons' further lessons on > calculus and algebra will have to be taught. It seems to me that you are overanalyzing this matter. Let's keep it simple: Let's say that a newcomer joined the Buddha's sangha, and this newcomer was tabula rasa. In other words, this novice bhikkhu didn't have proper sila, samadhi, or panna (maybe he/she became a monk because he/she was poor and just wanted to get something to eat everyday…which happened then and now). What would the Buddha first teach this newcomer? Would the Buddha teach sila, samadhi, and panna all at once (as Nina suggests) or would the Buddha teach sila first and not teach the other two at the beginning (as Tep suggests). I think that the texts are very clear about this: The Buddha would teach sila first and not teach the other two. If sila wasn't established (and of course not `perfected' yet, just established), then it would be impossible to begin teaching the other two. Now, when this hypothetical novice monk establishes sila what would the Buddha teach? Would he teach samadhi and panna at the same time? No, he would just teach samadhi, as the texts explain. He would teach mindfulness of the bodily postures, guarding the sense doors, anapanasati, and jhana. But, at this time would the first training be abandoned? No, the training in sila would continue because this novice monk's mind is not yet rid of defilements and so the potential to break sila is always present. Now, when this monk has finally achieved samadhi, that is when the Buddha would teach panna. He would teach non-self, dependent co- arising, and nibbana. But at this time would the first two trainings be abandoned? No, the training in sila would have to continue because of defilements and the training in samadhi would have to continue because of the hindrances. So, at this final stage, all three are being taught co-currently: sila, samadhi, and panna. This is so simple, straightforward, and easy to understand that I don't even know why we are discussing it. Well, I do know, because many in this group want to put the cart before the horse. Access to the teachings for a general audience leads one to believe that to be a Buddhist you have to "understand completely" the teaching before you can practice. This wasn't the way the Buddha taught and it isn't a reasonable expectation we should hold for ourselves or others. Metta, James 53307 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2005 11:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" > wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > wrote: > > > > > ... > > > > Hallo Htoo, Nina, Tep, all > > > > Joop (yesterday) :"To me a cyclic way of thinking about (for > example) > > sila - samadhi - > > panna is better: I had to pay attention again and again to each of > > the aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path." > Another question to you, not retoric: I perceive "siila, samaadhi > and > > panna" only as headers and translate them to the eight aspect of > the > > Noble Eightfold Path. Is that correct? > > > > Metta > > > > Joop > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Dear Joop, > > That is why I said teaching purpose. Yes there are three heading. > > My questions were planned so that they did not contain flaws. For > that I had to include 'perfect'. > > If still not perfect one that is if we are not talking NEP then we > are right. > > That is we can start with siila as a simple step. > > Examples; > > Htoo as a child keep away from killing not because he knew with > full wisdom but because he believed it is wrong morally to kill > others and he believed that elders taught the right thing. There is > no concentration like jhaana. So it is siila training. > > Htoo started to concentrate. His mind became calm and settled down > and stayed there in the object and contemplated that there was no > trace of unwholesome things. So this is samaadhi training. > > Pannaa training goes separately by studying deeper and deeper through > many different methods including meditation (not formal one but what > experienced as objects are taken). So this is pannaa training. > > But none of these three are NEP. I wrote one post on this thread before reading this post. So, it seems that you do understand the concept of sequential training. However, what you have not explained is why this is not the Noble Eightfold Path. Why do you say that??? Is it because of that commentarial definition that defines the NEP in terms of moments? If so, I am not even going to discuss that nonsense in depth. It is called the Noble Eightfold Path because it is a path of training; it isn't called the Noble Eightfold Moment! > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, James 53308 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:02am Subject: Small lesson 2 htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 letters in Paa.li. They all can serve as consonents. There are 8 primary vowels namely a, aa, i, ii, u, uu, e, o. a,i,u 3 vowels are short vowels whereas aa,ii,uu,e,o 5 vowels are long vowel. Rule of apposition. k can be apposed with k leading to kk (e.g. sakka). k can also be apposed with kh leading to kkh (e.g. pakkha). k cannot be apposed with g or gh. There is no kg, kgh apposition. Likewise other appositions are 1. a)[already shown --> kk, kkh], b) gg, ggh 2. a) cc, cch , b) jj, jjh 3. a) .t.t, .t.th , b) .d.d, .d.dh 4. a) tt, tth , b) dd, ddh 5. a) pp, pph , b) bb, bbh The last letter in a row of letter is nasalized consonent. Nasal appositions are 1. `nka, `nkha, `nga, `ngha, -- 2. ~nca, ~ncha, ~nja, ~njha, ~n~na 3. .n.ta, .n.tha, .n.da, .n.dha, .n.na 4. nta, ntha, nda, ndha, nna 5. mpa, mpha, mba, mbha, mma Miscellaneous appositions are 1. yya 2. gra , ... , ... 3. lla 4. dva, ... , ... 5. ssa, sma 6. .l.la Secondary short vowels. 1. e becomes short vowel where there is apposition followed. (e.g. ettha. Here e is short vowel ) 2. o becomes short vowel where there is apposition followed. (e.g. photthabba. Here o becomes short vowel) In Paa.li long vowel are double the short vowel. Short vowels are 1. a, 2. i, 3. u, 4. e (kk, tt etc), 5.o (kk, tt etc) Long vowels are 1. aa, 2. ii, 3. uu, 4. ee (that is e), 5. oo (that is o) So long vowels are double the time of short vowel. There is a semi-vowel. It is called 'nigahita'. It is '.m'. This letter does not have sound and there is no Paa.li word starts with '.m'. But when a conmsonent is ended with '.m' it becomes 'am'. But no ending sound like in English. Example; k is consonent. So there is no sound. a is a vowel. So there is a sound. When k is combined with a it becomes 'ka'. Likewise when k is combined with '.m' it becomes 'k.m'. But this is written as 'ka.m'. This 'ka.m' does not have any ending sound like is 'Cam' of English. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53309 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Hi, James (and all of us) This post of yours is of top quality -- it is accurate, succinct, and very informative. Thank you for this excellent explanation. Although, of course, my view is not exactly the same as yours, I still agree completely with it. > James: > It seems to me that you are overanalyzing this matter. Let's keep > it simple: Let's say that a newcomer joined the Buddha's sangha, > and this newcomer was tabula rasa. In other words, this novice > bhikkhu didn't have proper sila, samadhi, or panna (maybe he/she > became a monk because he/she was poor and just wanted to get > something to eat everyday…which happened then and now). What would > the Buddha first teach this newcomer? Would the Buddha teach sila, > samadhi, and panna all at once (as Nina suggests) or would the > Buddha teach sila first and not teach the other two at the beginning > (as Tep suggests). I think that the texts are very clear about > this: The Buddha would teach sila first and not teach the other > two. If sila wasn't established (and of course not `perfected' yet, > just established), then it would be impossible to begin teaching the > other two. > > Now, when this hypothetical novice monk establishes sila what would > the Buddha teach? Would he teach samadhi and panna at the same > time? No, he would just teach samadhi, as the texts explain. He > would teach mindfulness of the bodily postures, guarding the sense > doors, anapanasati, and jhana. But, at this time would the first > training be abandoned? No, the training in sila would continue > because this novice monk's mind is not yet rid of defilements and so > the potential to break sila is always present. > > Now, when this monk has finally achieved samadhi, that is when the > Buddha would teach panna. He would teach non-self, dependent co- > arising, and nibbana. But at this time would the first two > trainings be abandoned? No, the training in sila would have to > continue because of defilements and the training in samadhi would > have to continue because of the hindrances. So, at this final > stage, all three are being taught co-currently: sila, samadhi, and > panna. > > This is so simple, straightforward, and easy to understand that I > don't even know why we are discussing it. Well, I do know, because > many in this group want to put the cart before the horse. Access to > the teachings for a general audience leads one to believe that to be > a Buddhist you have to "understand completely" the teaching before > you can practice. This wasn't the way the Buddha taught and it > isn't a reasonable expectation we should hold for ourselves or > others. > Sadhu ! Tep ============ 53310 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:21am Subject: Sukin's long reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I will be doing much snipping in order to make my response less long. ;-) ===================================== > Htoo: > [Htoo is strangely repeating for several times in his mind that > Sukin said pariyatti and patipatti arise and fall away...... ...] Sukinder: Yes, and could you explain why? ====================================== > Sukin: > What do you think is the citta which understands correctly in > conceptual terms the Dhamma? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Not everything that understands correctly is panna. Newton > understood the law of physics correctly. Is it panna when he > realized that there must be gravity? Sukinder: No it wouldn't be panna, and this is why I referred particularly to `Dhamma' in my question. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Can it be akusala? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Kusalas are always accompanied by saddhaa, which is a clarity in > mind and that clarity help pannaa see things very very clearly. > > And sati, which is mindfulness to do profitable things or kusala > things. > > And many others mental factors that are totally different from > mental factors present in akusala cittas. > > So my answer to your question 'Can it be akusala?' will be ''Depends > on what the citta has associated mental factors. > > If you understand Dhamma with lobha then it is DEFINITELY akusala > citta. Sukinder: You must be referring to `thinking about' and perhaps with `reason and logic' string ideas together and create the impression of knowing and understanding. This can be with lobha of course. But it is not the `understanding' I am referring to. In my system, understanding (panna) is associated with Dhamma and therefore can't be with Lobha. ========================================= > Sukin: > Is it nana sampayutta? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The same applies as above. Understanding with lobha is akusala. > > Examples: Someone is reading a Dhamma book. He understands dhamma as > the book says. He extremely satisfied. But he does not know lobha > arising. So he is said to be developing lobha when he understand > what the book says. Sukinder: Cittas arise and fall so fast and kusala and akusala will alternate. What do you think of my understanding above, do you agree with it? ===================================== > Sukin: > If so, then this cittas does arise and fall no? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Ha ha ha ha. [Excuse me, Hmmm Hmmm] > > Citta does arise and citta does falls away. But pariyatti does not > arise and fall away. Sukinder: You can be quite confusing Htoo. From your response sometimes it is hard to know if whether you are smiling/laughing because you agree or because you disagree. And sometimes the overall impression I get is that you are putting one foot on both sides. So please state you position more clearly. Besides, I am known to be quite simple-minded when it comes to `indirect suggestions'. ;-) ===================================== Htoo: > Ask Nina whether 'citta' is a name or not, whether 'citta' is a > pannatti or not, whether pariyatti is pannatti or not. She will > explain you to your satisfaction. Sukinder: Yes, Sukin is more simple-minded than he realizes, and Nina is too busy. So I'll post an extract of her post to Phil and you can comment on it: >> N: As you say, sankhara khanda means mental factors/cetasikas. Except feeling and saññaa. Intellectual understanding is paññaa cetasika, it arises together with confidence, sati, detachment (alobha), adosa (makes one patient!), determination, manasikara, intention, and many sobhana cetasikas. These arise and fall away but they are accumulated in the next citta, on and on. When it is the right time they are the condition for intellectual understanding again, and thus it grows gradually. When there was only consideration of lobha and other dhammas, sankhara khanda is an accumulated condition for more consideration and later on for sati and direct understanding. << ====================================== > Sukin: > Let us now consider this understanding, `thinking is not the same as > direct experience'. > Is this necessarily associated with panna? I think it can, but not > necessary. Every religion teaches this and even every new- > age philosophy would come to the same conclusion. It does not take > panna to see this. What does require panna is what follows from this > conclusion. > > Based on the predominant wrong view or any level of right view, a > person will have ideas about `what is, and what should be'. You can > be sure that if there is not the level of panna which then > experiences a paramattha dhamma, any `seeking' will be with `wrong > view'. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Are you saying Prince Siddattha was wrong to search or wrong to seek > the answer by going into forest, sitting under the Bo tree for 6 > years and then frequently sat under trees, in quiet place? Sukinder: Here we come to the main point. I made the distinction between Saddha which arises with kusala citta of samatha, and that which arises with the knowledge of the Buddha's Teachings. I understand that the saddha and panna connected with dana, sila and samatha Bhavana can arise without the Buddha Sasana. In which case the Bodhisatta when he saw the sick man, the dead body, the recluse and so on, they were the conditions for this type of panna. Even though he had the accumulations for the other type of panna almost to the full by then, this did not arise until his Enlightenment. Or maybe it was the Cintamaya panna you refer to later in this post that took effect? In any case, his going away from the household life to seek solitude, was with the understanding not of the level that understood conditioned realities. And this is why it resulted in practices that were not the Middle Way. After he finally got enlightened and discovered the Middle Way, there was no need for the idea of a quieter and better place to be suggested to anyone. He did not encourage anyone to `think' as he did before his Enlightenment, *because his understanding now had changed*. =================================== > Sukin: > And this happens so fast before any thinking even arises, that what > ever the thoughts are, we will follow it and be convinced by any > reasoning and logic associated with that. However, if one has heard > enough of the correct dhamma, there can be instead an intellectual > understanding of what is going on and so even if there did arise any > idea associated with craving, it can be corrected and stopped right > there. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat > here again. > > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat > here for the third time. > > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. Sukinder: Please explain. ================================== > Sukin: > It is ironical that those who understand correctly at the > intellectual level and see the value of it, are less likely to be > fooled by concepts than those who seem to resist this in preference > to `directly experience'. > The latter are in fact being drawn by "concepts" for example > of `self', `meditation', `retreat', `quiet' and so on to fit into > their scheme of things. Even if they are studying the Abhidhamma, > this will have to serve the purpose of which those ideas dictates. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > :-) :-)) :D Sukinder: Please explain. =============================== > Sukin: > But really, it is better not to have moments of patipatti arise, > than to have miccha patipatti. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Hold on!! Hang on !!! > > I will write down another word. > > Here 'micchaa patipatti'. > > The Buddha did say not to add any new and not to omit anything. > > 'Aanandaa..., Dhamma and vinaya will be Master when the Master pass > away.' [Mahaparinibbana Sutta] Sukinder: I thought that you might jump at this and you did. ;-) When I wrote it I had and still have a vague memory of someone else using this term, perhaps Robert K.? Anyway, in my mind it just means `wrong practice', so what's the big deal? Would anything Sukin say's ever go down in the history of Buddhism, would it even influence any other person? Does Sukin also not admit to being pali illiterate and not particularly interested in it? So don't worry, this ripple won't transform into a wave. What in fact is a big wave to me are the wrong views expressed for example, in the idea of formal mediation and retreats, and yet I do not make it anything much more than a topic of discussion here in this group. ===================================== > Htoo: > I will try to find this new word that is micchaa patipatti in > Tipitaka. :-)) Amara might know. :-)) Sukinder: You bring in Amara quite often, why is it? ===================================== > Sukin: > And not knowing what patipatti is in theory, invariably what will be > followed is wrong practice. And this knowing is not just a matter of > having the idea in mind, but also the correct attitude > towards it. For indeed if all this citta, cetasika and rupa that we > talk and think so much about, is not about *this* moment, then I > think we are missing the point. And this missing the point is > further reinforced by our attachment to ideas of meditation, > retreats etc. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Fulfil what is needed. Good. Well done. Wait for accumulation. OK. Sukinder: "Wait for accumulations"? Whose thoughts are you referring to? ================================== > Htoo: > Maybe this time my memory has a seive. It seems leaking out. > > 1. sacca ~naana > 2. kicca ~naana > 3. kata ~naana > > The First Discourse of The Buddha will say you. Sukinder: Is this a question, if not what are you saying? ==================================== > Sukin: > And lately it is for the same reason that I brought up the idea of > Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Thanks for using Paa.li even though I lost the connections between > your posts. > > 1. sutamaya (not suttamaya, I think) > 2. cintamaya > 3. bhaavanaamaya > > Manomaya = by means of mind > suta maya= by means of 'being heard' (taught) > cintamaya= by means of thinking (logical thinking) > bhaavanaamaya= by means of 'mental activity of developing wisdom' Sukinder: Thanks, I never heard of Manomaya before. =================================== > Sukin: > All this is to bring us to the realization of where we are at. > > Can we even say that we have correct pariyatti each time that we > consider the Teachings? > > Does Cintamaya panna arise that often in a day? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Cintaamaya panna resides in persons like Buddhas. Do you think > you have cintamaya pannaa? Sukinder: OK, I now remember vaguely, reading here on DSG, that Cintamaya panna relates as you say, to the Buddha (or is it Bodhisatta?). So I may have misused the concept. What I had in mind however, and this was when I was reflecting on my experiences in India, was to point out the difference of the level of understanding between, a) When prompted by hearing or reading about Dhamma. and b) When some momentary experience in daily life, would condition some consideration and reflection in Dhamma terms. I had come to the conclusion that the latter was a step forward from the former in the sense that it is at a stage of development, prior to direct experience i.e. satipatthana. It may be that it is better I just call this `wise reflection' or something, but it so happened that at that time, this idea of sutta, cinta and bhavana maya panna came to my mind and I started to make the association. In any case, I still wonder if the same idea might not apply in that it is `thinking' prompted by some experience. What do you think? ================================= > Sukin: > Do we know seeing now? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: YES. [ Htoo loudly answers. _just to be caust up in Sukin's > trap_] > > I saw your '?' but now I am exactly touching the button that shows > fullstop to end this sentence here please see'.' Sukinder: I am slow to understand riddles, so please explain. ================================ > Sukin: > Does the characteristic of hardness appear and known as anatta? I > think the test and proof is in how much > understanding arises in this very moment. Some of us will > acknowledge that ours is only panna of the thinking level. However, > we would be referring to anything that arises in the moment, now. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > :-)) If I have to say the fourth time 'looking at a single...' Sukinder: I still don't get it. =============================== > Sukin: > This level of Saddha which is convinced about what appears as being > the only object that needs to be understood and not be caught up in > concept of time, place and activity; this too is a necessary part of > correct pariyatti. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This might as well be 'UNNECESSARY dissection of dhammas into very > very fine details that are never seen by anyone. Sukinder: Oh no, it is not. It is simply the question of attitude towards the dhamma that appears "now", that is all. In fact do we even consider enough that whatever is going on now as being a "dhamma"? Perhaps this is the path which leads to the conviction that the idea about another time, place, retreats etc. is misleading? ============================== > Sukin: > I think what happens is that people are not happy with just a > correct intellectual understanding or even see much value in it, > but instead would like to have `more', so the idea of `self' and > `control' becomes the driving force. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Might be, might be partly right. But this is not true. Sukinder: Of course, there can never be just one set of conditions. ==================================== > Sukin: > But of course this is from not having the > correct pariyatti in the first place. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Well, .......llll > > I will be looking forward to 'the second place'. :-)) Sukinder: What do you mean? ================================ > Sukin: > In other words, there can't be a jump from the little understanding > that dhamma needs to be understood directly to it actually > happening. The development of panna happens in steps and degrees and > involves increased detachment. In fact every kusala dhamma > associated with the development of panna also gets developed in > degrees. Such that one would see that generally there will be more > sila, khanti, viriya and so on, each supporting panna and each > directed towards the present dhamma. Doesn't it sound fantastic to > think that all this is going to be developed in 7 days, or 7 months > or 7 years by meditation? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Ha ha ha ha. [Excuse me, Hmmm Hmmmm ...] > > This is what The Teachings say. This is in Tipitaka. This is not my > own word. This is in Nikaaya. This is in Suttas. Not my word or any > others' word. Sukinder: Yes, yes, "This is what The Teachings say. This is in Tipitaka. This is in Nikaaya. This is in Suttas". I say it, you say it. So where is the disagreement? In our *interpretations* of what is said! And this is what I am referring to!! =============================== > Htoo: > Here I will say for the fifth time that 'looking at a single ...' Sukinder: ………still don't get it…….. =============================== > Sukin: > The level of delusion that indeed arises is quite annoying. So much > so that it often leads to some level of being `conceited', often > unexpressed, that one knows the Teachings well enough to not need to > hear more, or that it is secondary. But even an Arahat would never > say no to hearing the Buddha's teachings. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I strongly dobt the above paragraph. It is about what? > > I always repeat where important. I always go down to the base down > to the bottom. > > Are you referring me that 'I am conceited and I am unexpressed and I > assume myself know the Teachings well enough and 'to not need to > hear more, or that it is secondary'? Sukinder: No of course not. I was thinking particularly about Goenka and his meditation instructors, and also some in this group who lean towards thinking that all the raw material they ever need for the development of understanding, is their own experience, and others who think that only a few Suttas is enough to guide them. But you do approve of Goenka don't you, and besides you even gave the example of the certain monk who asked his student "if whether understanding anicca wasn't enough". So even though you personally show great respect to the Teachings, your approval of these other people, causes me to question you. ==================================== > Htoo: > There are many methods of meditation of satipatthaana. > > 1. some do at nose and do breathing alternating forceful breathing > and gentle breathing. > > 2. some teach D.O beforehand and then make sitting > > 3. some teach to put the mind at nose or lip > > 4. some teach to put the mind on the abdomen > and many others. Sukinder: So you believe that all these methods are right. Why then would some of the Mahayana and Zen practices be wrong? Does it depend only on the difference in the "theory" taught? If so, how is it that their theories lead to the same conclusion (about the need to practice meditation) as yours? If indeed their theory is wrong and yet they arrive at the same conclusion, could it not be that it is *not* so much the teachings or Teachings, but something else more influential that led to such an idea? Ask me and I'll say it is "self view". Dhamma or Dharma is only an excuse and shield against any constructive criticism. It is the source of all our explanations and self-justifications, and meanwhile Mara is having a great time. ;-) Take out all these explanations, and we are left with only our attitude towards the present moment. And it is this present moment that Dhamma leads you to if understood correctly and not some idea of "practice". Now I think I am beginning to get some idea of your statement: >> I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life.<< Correct me if I am wrong. From the list above, I gather that you believe that it does not matter if there is `no understanding' of realities in the beginning. What I think you believe then is that it slowly and gradually develops as we are reminded again and again about realities (which by the way, most meditation systems DON'T teach). And so we should not be too concerned about any little akusala, or even `wrong view' in the beginning. Hence your conclusion above about DSGs. Am I right? But doesn't `wrong view' accumulate? Can avijja lead to vijja? *What are the precise conditions in such a practice that leads to sati and panna?* I think wrong view accumulates and it is precisely this that *blinds* the meditator, giving the illusion instead, of achieving something. Enough for today. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 53311 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: Understanding Abhhidhamma (Was: Dhammapada) robmoult Hi Chin Kah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, limchinkah wrote: > I find Abhidhamma very profound and quite difficult to understand. At times, I wish there is a "Abhidhamma for real Dummies" book available!! One of the difficulties people faced in learning Abhidhamma (or even the Suttas for that matter) is perhaps the english. I guess it is quite difficult to accurately translate Pali into english and authors often have to use the best-fit english word to represent a certain Pali word. For example, people often say that "suffering" is not the best english word to describe "dukkha". ===== Your name sounds familiar... Sarah sent me an email regarding your post as I have been "lurking" lately (not active on DSG). I expect to me much more active in the new year. I might be able to help you. I teach an "Abhihdamma for Beginners" class, starting at 9:45 each Sunday morning at Brickfields. A new class will be starting on January 8th. You might want to download the .PDF of last year's class notes from the files section of DSG (Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile). This year's class notes will be better :-) ===== > > Some of the Abdhidhamma facts sound a bit mystifying. I am not doubting what is taught by the Buddha. Very often, I try to relate the theories of Abdhidhamma to something practical - something that I can relate to in our human bodies. > > My recent question regarding the kamma produced rupas; consciousness produced rupas; heat produced rupas was aimed at relating them to our human bodies. At the back of my mind when I learned about the ways how rupas can be produced was the scientific law that says "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed". If matter cannot be created nor destroyed, how then is rupa/matter created by a consciousness or kamma? ===== Maybe it would help if we define "rupa" as "non-mental phenomena" rather than "matter". "Matter" is a bit limiting for a definition of rupa. Let us talk about the part of the eye that allows us to see (not the whole eye, just the part that allows us to see). This is not a mental phenomena, it is rupa. A person born blind does not have this rupa while a sighted person does have this rupa. What causes a person to be born blind or sighted? It is their kamma. So the Abhidhamma explains that it is kamma (specifically rebirth linking kamma) which conditions the arising of eye-sensitivity rupa. Imagine that you see a smile on somebody's face. Is that a mental phenomena? No, it is rupa. If I gesture to you, is that a mental phenomena? No, it is rupa. Is the tone of my voice a mental phenomena? No, it is rupa. These are three examples of "rupa" that don't really fit the definition of "matter". They are also all conditioned to arise by consciousness. Consider something that is not living, such as a rock. According to the Abhidhamma, these things come into existence because of temperature (or you might say energy). Does a rock come into existence because of temperature? It could be argued that way. Many people are confused about rupas as they think of them like little "atoms". To understand how the Buddha analyzed rupa, one must understand why the Buddha analyzed rupa. Consider a "glass of water": - A chemist may look at it as H2O - A physicist may look at it as electrons, protons and neutrons - An artist may look at it as a way to lighten the pigment of his watercolour paints - A housewife may look at it as a way to make her cake moist So how does a Buddhist perceive a "glass of water"? - When perceived through the eye-door, it is a visible object - When perceived through the nose-door, it is an odour - When perceived through the tongue-door, it is a flavour - When perceived through the body-door, it is a combination of hardness, temperature and pressure Considering all non-living things to be "equivalent" (i.e. consisting of the same set of characteristics or rupas ) may seem quite un- scientific. However, this is a reflection of the Buddha's objective in analyzing rupa. Buddhism is not interested in how rupa interacts with other rupa; this is the domain of sciences such as physics and chemistry. The Buddha's focus was on how the mind interacts with rupa as it is the mind which leads one to live a holy life and leads one to Nibbana. Chin Kah, I could go on at some length on this subject, but I wanted to get your feedback on what I have written to see if it answers your qustion or raises more quesitons. Metta, Rob M :-) 53312 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:16am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing James wrote: I wrote one post on this thread before reading this post. So, it seems that you do understand the concept of sequential training. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it will be different from you. ----------------------------------------------------------------- James: However, what you have not explained is why this is not the Noble Eightfold Path. Why do you say that??? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Well, I will explain here the matter. For Noble Eightfold Path to arise there have to arise other associated phenomea like bojjhanga of enlightenment factors and other Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Sequential training is just for teaching purpose. And sequential training is just a building block for arising of higher mentalities as in case of Noble Eightfold Path. The name already implies that it is Noble Eightfold Path. It is not Puthujana Eightfold Path. Even in case of ariyas they do not always arise. Only when they attain phala-samapatti or fruition attainment do Noble Eightfold Path arise. Arahats also have kaamavacara cittas. Example; when they are talking with fellow monks there do arise kaamavacara cittas. There is no NEP at that time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Is it because of that commentarial definition that defines the NEP in terms of moments? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just extracted the essence. They are from the teachings. I do not disgard commentaries while I highly regard The Buddha's Original Teachings. People seem confused on commentaries who wrote who added new etc. The Buddha already told not to add any new or not to omit any existing teachings. Dhamma and Vinaya will be the Master when He did parinibbana. Whether you count on moment or not, if the Path is of puthujana then it is not Noble Eightfold Path. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: If so, I am not even going to discuss that nonsense in depth. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This depends on your inclinations and I will leave it for you whether to continue discussing or not to. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: It is called the Noble Eightfold Path because it is a path of training; --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha said 'dukkha nirodha gaaminii pa.tipada ariya saccaa'. If it is a Path of training then The Buddha would have said it is 'dukkha nirodha gaaminii pa.yipadaa sekha saccaa'. In many suttas The Buddha did say three sikkhaa. They are for training. When there is no clear distinction between NEP and three training these problems have to arise. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: it isn't called the Noble Eightfold Moment! > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, James --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not talking on Noble moment but I am talking on Noble saccaa. Magga saccaa is NEP. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53313 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:22am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing Dear James, I already said it is for training purpose. And when I said NEP I explain it is Noble's Truth. I have posted another reply to you. Please see there for further discussion. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, < snip > > a Buddhist you have to "understand completely" the teaching before > you can practice. This wasn't the way the Buddha taught and it > isn't a reasonable expectation we should hold for ourselves or > others. > > Metta, > James > 53314 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Dear Sukinder (Attn. RobK, James, Sarah, Htoo, Joop)- I am pleased to see you back to the message board today. So you may have time to look at my reply to your questions in # 53206 and tell me what you think of them. Of course, you will disagree ! {:->|) [ It used to trouble me in the past to read your many questions like being shot at by a machine gun. But I have learned to let go: i.e. become mature. So now 'I' am well protected. :-) ] Your comments or questions are in quotes and preceded by '>'; my reply is right below it >"So you are saying that the Buddha taught a kind of jhana which is not mundane?" Tep: Yes. >"Why bring in the question of whether the term `mundane jhana" was used in the Suttas?" Tep: The term "mundane" doesn't trouble me. What troubles me is the notion that the 4 rupa-jhanas in the suttas are "mundane", because they are samma-samadhi. >"And what according to you *is* the difference between the two kinds of jhana? Tep: Khun Sujin's followers have called "mundane" jhanas "dumb". >"As the "one" practice towards enlightenment, the Buddha taught only Satipatthana." Tep: He also taught other dhammas like the seven enlightenment factors and five faculties(indriya) in the bodhipakkhiya group of 37. >"Other forms of kusala development, such as dana, sila and samatha bhavana, including jhana, were taught not as a "how to" regardless of satipatthana, but were encouraged to be seen through the eye of wisdom, which is the eightfold path." Tep: The Eightfold Path is the fourth noble truth. The four noble truths also belong to the bodhipakkhiya group. Indeed, the Buddha-sassana is even more extensive than that. Let the Nyanatiloka Dictionary tell us more : "Navanga-Buddha (or satthu)-sásana, the nine-fold Dispensation of the Buddha (or the Master) consists of suttas (sutta), mixed prose (geyya), exegesis (veyyákarana), verses (gáthá), solemn utterances (udána), sayings of the Blessed One (itivuttaka), birth stories (játaka), extraordinary things abbhutadhamma), and analysis (vedalla). This classification is often found in the suttas (e.g. M.22). According to the commentaries, also the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma Pitaka are comprised in that nine-fold division (see Atthasálini Tr., I, 33)." [endquote] > "So in my opinion, making this connection between jhana and the eightfold path is because one does not appreciate the real value and significance of satipatthana." Tep: How would you validate that "charge"? > "Not knowing the object of jhana, then how do you expect to develop it?!" Tep: I only said that the Buddha did not mentioned "the object" of jhana. How to develop jhana is another topic by itself. >"To ignore the commentaries and Abhidhamma and just go along with whatever impression I get from reading any Sutta or to believe your interpretation? What is the significance of the Buddha's not mentioning the object of Jhana? Can you elaborate on this?" Tep: This blast of questions is typically Sukin's. Whatever the Buddha did not mention, it must not be important. Period. >"Do you Tep, see the Eightfold Path as separate practices and/or things to do, unlike some of us who see it as description of dhammas accompanying each other performing their individual functions at the moment of enlightenment?" Tep: Asking leading questions in court would not be accepted by the judge ! But I will allow you, regardless. :-) Of course the 37 dhammas in the bodhpakkhiya group are to be perfected otherwise there will be no "moment of enlightenment". I'll be glad to hear what you have to say. Let's clean the sleigh before I leave DSG for good. That day is near. Yours truly, Tep May your persistence be aroused & not lax; your mindfulness established & not confused; your body calm & not aroused; your mind centered & unified. ---[AN III.40] ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Robert), > > > Tep: > > The comments reflect that you are very thoughtful -- in the sense of > > being full of thoughts. These thoughts are clever, maybe too > > clever, 'cause I think they fly over the simple issue of the discussion > > between RobertK and me. > (snipped) 53315 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > James wrote: > > > > I wrote one post on this thread before reading this post. So, it > seems that you do understand the concept of sequential training. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I think it will be different from you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > James: > > However, what you have not explained is why this is not the Noble > Eightfold Path. Why do you say that??? > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Htoo: > > Well, I will explain here the matter. For Noble Eightfold Path to > arise there have to arise other associated phenomea like bojjhanga > of enlightenment factors and other Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. > > Sequential training is just for teaching purpose. And sequential > training is just a building block for arising of higher mentalities > as in case of Noble Eightfold Path. James: I disagree with this comment. When we discuss the three-fold division of sila, samadhi, and panna, we are not just discussing a training method, we are in fact discussing the Noble Eightfold Path: [Visakha, a layman, ex-husband of Ven. Sister Dhammadinna:] "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?" [Ven. Sister Dhammadinna:] "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-044- tb0.html#agg3 > > The name already implies that it is Noble Eightfold Path. It is not > Puthujana Eightfold Path. James: I disagree with this comment also. The Buddha taught that the Noble Eightfold Path is both mundane and supermundane; in other words, it is not just meant for noble ones: "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is right resolve? Right resolve, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right resolve with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right resolve, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right resolve that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right resolve that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html Metta, James 53316 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:14am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhatrue Hi Again Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > > Metta, > James > > > After posting this sutta I realized that this is one of the suttas that I have some issues with. The beginning of the sutta starts just fine but then something very strange happens at the end of the sutta. I discussed this sutta with Robert K. before and I am not sure if it is authentic (or maybe not fully authentic). I don't have acess to my copy of MN so I can't check it in detail now. Anyway, I still think my response is adequate but I am not sure if my sutta support is that great. Metta, James 53317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Hi Phil, op 10-12-2005 00:33 schreef Phil op philco777@...: ... Would you please explain the difference between > patipatti and >> pativedha? > > Ph: Could someone post a link to the post Sukin wrote about this > topic, that Nina and Lodewijk discussed in some details? I've lost > it, though I imagine I could find it in UPs. ----- N: Must have been Sept, before India, but I could not trace it anymore, perhaps under pariyatti. Sukin explained that it is much more than just theory. By considering again and again the characteristics, the citta is bent towards the characteristics that appear very gradually. Thus it can condition direct awareness. If you find it you could repost it here, worth while. Rob K calls this thinking in the present moment. You consider what appears now. ------- Accumulated in the citta, yes, each citta contains all past accumulations and past experiences. Right, those condition the arising of akusala citta and kusala citta now by way of natural decisive support condition. We learn this, but it is hard to imagine how it all operates. ---------- > Ph: But we should remember that until the first tender insight > vipasanna-nana at which nama is known from rupa, this dosa will > always be "my dosa" and there isn't *really* any detachment from it. ---------- N: There is ignorance of its true nature of anatta. But when there is awareness it can be seen as a kind of nama and this is already a depersonification. It becomes less important. It is ephemeral. --------- ---> Ph: As I've posted before, I am wary of these "shoulds" that are > used sometimes by A. Sujin - perhaps it is a translation issue, but > the "should" in English, in my opinion, can really throw people off. -------- N:Any tips are most welcome, you are right. Please tell me when you see other things, English is not my language. ------ > > Ph: > Thanks for these posts, Nina. Will this Dhamma in Cambodia be in > book form? I hope so. I cling to book form! ----- N: I do not know about these things, it depends on conditions. I never bother about printing. Nina. 53318 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] msg fm metta nilovg Hello Wayne, welcome to the group. Would you share with us what you find particularly helpful in Buddhism, or the suttas that interest you? Or any questions? Nina. op 09-12-2005 19:18 schreef wayne op wkochman@...: > I have been a student of Theravada Vipassana since > I got out of the hospital in 1993. I am 59 years old, > homebound handicapped since 1989, and have two > children and three grand children. 53319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya: Khun Sujin, Howard, and the Buddha. nilovg Hi Tep, op 09-12-2005 22:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > You are very kind to sacrifice some personal comfort (long typing is > painful) and spare your valuable time (despite your busy schedule > preparing for the Holidays and Thailand) to answer silly questions of > mine. May you and the whole family have a great holiday time. {:->)) ---------- Thanks for your kind wishes. Typing is not painful to me, the music helps me to strengthen fingers and hands. Your q. are not silly, but excellent. Meanwhile, I hope Htoo and others will answer. I have to wait, and I cannot promise anything. I understood now that you do not think this first, than that, you made that clear to Htoo. This is all for now, Nina. 53320 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I am interested to know more detail about your understanding of MN 117 and why you think it is not authentic. >James: The beginning of the sutta starts just > fine but then something very strange happens at the end of the sutta. > I discussed this sutta with Robert K. before and I am not sure if it > is authentic (or maybe not fully authentic). I don't have acess to my > copy of MN so I can't check it in detail now. Anyway, I still think > my response is adequate but I am not sure if my sutta support is that > great. > What is that "very strange" thing? MN 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. The Great Forty Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html Regards, Tep ======= 53321 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya: Khun Sujin, Howard, and the Buddha. buddhistmedi... Hi, Niana - It is good to see your reply and know that we understand each other well. >N: > Thanks for your kind wishes. Typing is not painful to me, the music helps >me to strengthen fingers and hands. Your q. are not silly, but excellent. > Meanwhile, I hope Htoo and others will answer. I have to wait, and I cannot promise anything. > I understood now that you do not think this first, than that, you made that > clear to Htoo. > This is all for now, Thank you for thinking well about the questions I have asked. I am glad to know that you have read my other post(s) too. It would be too long to put everything in one message -- like trying to stuff many gifts into one stocking. Warm regards, Tep ======= 53322 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:37am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (and all )- Your past posts indicate to me that the Buddha's words in those suttas do not convince you about existence of order or sequence in the practice (not just "for the purpose of teaching"). Now, if I say that the famous Burmese monk, U Ba Khin, said the same thing, will you then believe him? Read the following extract and think about it ! ................................... "Impermanence (anicca) is, of course, the essential fact which must be first experienced and understood by practice. Mere book-knowledge of the Buddha-Dhamma will not be enough for the correct understanding of Anicca because the experiential aspect will be missing. It is only through experiential understanding of the nature of Anicca as an ever-changing process within you that you can understand Anicca in the way the Buddha would like you to understand it. As in the days of the Buddha, so too now, this understanding of Anicca can be developed by persons who have no book-knowledge whatsoever of Buddhism. To understand Impermanence (anicca) one must follow strictly and diligently the Eightfold Noble Path, which is divided into the three groups of Sila, Samadhi and Pañña — Morality, Concentration and Wisdom. Sila, or virtuous living, is he basis for Samadhi, control of the mind leading to one-pointedness. It is only when Samadhi is good that one can develop Pañña. Therefore, Sila and Samadhi are the prerequisites for Pañña. By Pañña is meant the understanding of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta through the practice of Vipassana, i.e., insight meditation." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khin/wheel231.html ....................................................... Regards, Tep =============== > > > > (Htoo;) I would go in a bit deep into this matter. Let us see the training. > > I know what you want to mean in case of beginner. Beginners have > to be taught in a way that they all can understand and comply what > they have been taught. > > > > But in case of real training (the training to attain arahatta > magga naana), the grouping of 'siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa' is just for teaching purpose. > > > > It is not siila is first, then samaadhi has to follow and finally > > pannaa. > > > > Example; If there is no samaadhi, one will never ever perfect > siila. As soon as samaadhi is off, siila is not perfect. This already > mean that siila and samaadhi in perfection go hand in hand. > > > > Likewise pannaa is the same. Without pannaa, one cannot perfect > siila and without panna, one cannot attain samaadhi. > > > > If one thinks that 'This is siila. I have fulfilled this siila. > Now I am going to fill in samaadhi. OK now I get the necessary > samaadhi. Now I have siila and samaadhi. But I do not have pannaa. So I am just going to try to develop panna,' then it is totally wrong. > > Because there is idea of self which is wrong view. Wrong view will > > not perfect any pannaa at all. > > > > I know that the beginners have to be taught that 'This is > addition, > > this is substraction, this is multiplication, and this is > division. > > Now as they all know 'these simple lessons' further lessons on > > calculus and algebra will have to be taught. > > > James: > It seems to me that you are overanalyzing this matter. Let's keep > it simple: Let's say that a newcomer joined the Buddha's sangha, > and this newcomer was tabula rasa. In other words, this novice > bhikkhu didn't have proper sila, samadhi, or panna (maybe he/she > became a monk because he/she was poor and just wanted to get > something to eat everyday…which happened then and now). What would > the Buddha first teach this newcomer? Would the Buddha teach sila, > samadhi, and panna all at once (as Nina suggests) or would the > Buddha teach sila first and not teach the other two at the beginning > (as Tep suggests). I think that the texts are very clear about > this: The Buddha would teach sila first and not teach the other > two. If sila wasn't established (and of course not `perfected' yet, > just established), then it would be impossible to begin teaching the > other two. > > Now, when this hypothetical novice monk establishes sila what would > the Buddha teach? Would he teach samadhi and panna at the same > time? No, he would just teach samadhi, as the texts explain. He > would teach mindfulness of the bodily postures, guarding the sense > doors, anapanasati, and jhana. But, at this time would the first > training be abandoned? No, the training in sila would continue > because this novice monk's mind is not yet rid of defilements and so > the potential to break sila is always present. > > Now, when this monk has finally achieved samadhi, that is when the > Buddha would teach panna. He would teach non-self, dependent co- > arising, and nibbana. But at this time would the first two > trainings be abandoned? No, the training in sila would have to > continue because of defilements and the training in samadhi would > have to continue because of the hindrances. So, at this final > stage, all three are being taught co-currently: sila, samadhi, and > panna. > > This is so simple, straightforward, and easy to understand that I > don't even know why we are discussing it. Well, I do know, because > many in this group want to put the cart before the horse. Access to > the teachings for a general audience leads one to believe that to be > a Buddhist you have to "understand completely" the teaching before > you can practice. This wasn't the way the Buddha taught and it > isn't a reasonable expectation we should hold for ourselves or > others. > 53323 From: nina Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:06am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 53324 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:53am Subject: Prayer christine_fo... Hello all, Is there a place for prayer in Theravada Buddhism? Ajahn Munindo thinks so. http://www.ratanagiri.org.uk/Book/book4/12.htm Any thoughts? metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 53325 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:08pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Hi, Joop, Sarah and > > Larry: < pure mind?>> > > Connie: I keep asking! (Uh, Joop recently quoted*) Ven. Vajita, in > part: ... Hallo Connie, Connie: "English words can be real stumbling blocs" Joop: Reading your message as a not native english speaker I must say: agree What was the message to me or the question to me? Metta Joop 53326 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > Here we were discussing M121 the Cuu.lasu~n~nata Sutta. > Hallo Sarah Thanks again for your reaction. I propose the end this thread with some remarks. Sarah: "Assuming that we're both talking about the ancient commentators, I'd be interested to see any evidence for their 'being scared...'etc. Do you think you understand the suttas better? I don't know what you mean hear about the 8 jhanas or anatta. You'd have to explain. The comments make no sense to me, I'm afraid." Joop: I think this are three points: - Do I have exemples of commentators be scared? It will take to much time to search the examples I have vaguely in mind. I remember a discussion a year ago about "Luminosity" for example; an essay of Bhikkhu Bodhi (not ancient but orthodox) about the socalled Kalama- Sutta; and your quotes on this Sutta MN 121 - Do I understand the Suttas better? That's not a nice question. Is should be very "spiritual incorrect" to say "yes". Still I think (Kalama, you know) that I can read a Sutta without a bias, I read what I read and when a commentators states that the Sutta has an other meaning that the explicit text, then it's possible, to me, that I'm correct. - "Hear about the 8 jhanas or anatta." I know my text was short, so perhaps you did not understand I started this thread about MN 121 with a very openminded question: what was the Buddha doing when He was …; and what is the 'void' He was talking about? And my sub-question was: in most Suttas the term 'jhana' is used when the topic is 'jhana', why not in this Sutta? So I had not any agitation when I started this thread. I was surprised that commentators, and you, immediately said: oh, that's about jhana, #1 till #8: the list of 8 jhana objects is only partly the same as the list of MN 121 (see below) And then I asked: but if I count, there are not eight steps at all, and the first steps in the Sutta are quit another formulae then the well-known ones of jhana; why? And I asked: Is it sure that the 'voidness' the Buddha is talking about in this Sutta that Base Consisting of Nothingness (third immaterial jhana)? Again a openminded question. It was not evident to me. =========================================== >J:To say it more objective: the same Nyatiloka > explains "anicca: 'impermanent' is the first of the three > characteristics of existence (tilakkhana, q.v.). It is from the fact > of impermanence that, in most texts, the other two characteristics, > suffering (dukkha) and not-self (anattá), are DERIVED (S. XXII, 15; Ud. IV, I) Sarah: "Is this the Udana about Meghiya. Can you quote me the refs you are referring to?" Joop (now): I was only quoting Nyanatiloka's Pali Dictionary. ================================================ Joop (aweek or so ago): "… but what is in your opinion the function of the first part of the Sutta for a wordling reading it? I think: for contemplation, not for getting in jhana as soon as possible." Sarah: "For appreciating the profundity of the Buddha's teachings and the depth of his wisdom. Not to try to emulate or follow as a method!" Joop (now): I'm glad you agreed with me on this conclusion. I try to have discussions that are fruitful; I doubt if the continuation of this thread will be, less than the other one with you, Sarah. Metta Joop 53327 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Joop (and Htoo, etc.) - > .... > Tep: The following MN 117 passage clearly reveals > the sequential process of the NEP -- its linearity. Joop: That may be so, but what do you think of this simple way of reasoning (of me): the first step of doing the NEP may be 'right view' but after one or more cycles it is not important at all what was first. > Tep: The habit of talking about perfect things is difficult to > change. The 'spiral' or 'cycle' are nothing but some abstraction > or "model". They don't mean much for practitioners. Joop: Are you serious?? It mean for example something to me > .................... > > > Joop: Another question to you, not retoric: I perceive "siila, > > samaadhi and > > "panna" only as headers and translate them to the eight aspect > > of the Noble Eightfold Path. Is that correct? > > > > Tep: If we don't know which is which, how can we understand the > dispensation (Buddha-sassana)? > Joop: I do not understand what you write. You mean that I do not know which is which. What is the first 'which' and what is the second 'which' Metta Joop 53328 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:08pm Subject: An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The following is to present an interview between two people. I do not mention the other one as I do not think he would be a member here and I believe he would not deny to post here as the questions are open to all. Your questioning style is quite familiar to me that I feel you are someone I know. Please read the interview below. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- Interviewer: I am stuck at the sensation and feeling. At times, they seems to be synonymous and I use it interchangeably. I would very much like to understand --- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know English words much in the Buddhists' texts. But from Buddhist text feeling is just confined to naama or mentality. It is a mental factor. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Interviewer: Q1. What is exactly the definition of sensation and feelings? I mean in buddhist way. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In Buddhists' way 1. Seeing is sensation. It is 'sensation of sight'. Seeing senses sight. 2. Hearing is sensation. It is 'sensation of sound'. Hearing senses sound. 3. Smelling - smell 4. Tasting - taste 5. Touching - touch (hardness, pressure, temperature) 6. Thinking is sensation. It is 'sensation of thought'. Thinking senses thoughts. All sensations have feeling. That is why you confuse 'sensation' and 'feeling'. There are 89 kinds of sensations. There are 89 feelings along with these 89 sensations. Sensations are consciousness. When there is no consciousness then there is no sensation at all. Consciousness are called 'citta' in Buddhism. These 89 sensations are 1. sensation of sight (seeing-consciousness or eye-consciousness or cakkhu-vinnaana-citta) 2. sensation of sound (hearing-consciousness or ear-consciousness or sota-vinnaana-citta) 3. sensation of smell (smelling-consciousness or nose-consciousness or ghaana-vinnaana-citta) 4. sensation of taste (tasting-consciousness or tongue-consciousness or jivhaa-vinnaana-citta) 5. sensation of touch (touching-consciousness or body-consciousness or kaaya-vinnaana-citta) 6. sensation of thought/mind-object (thinking-consciousness or mind- consciousness or mano-vinnaana-citta) There are 10 sensations. 5 are the results of unwholesome deeds in the past. The past means 'not now but before now'. And 5 are the results of wholesome deeds in the past. Both altogether these 10 sensations are called 10 sense-consciousness or dvi-panca-vinnaana- cittas. Dvi means 'two, double' and panca means 'five'. Dvipanca means 'ten'. There left 79 sensations. They are mind-consciousness. They are mano- vinaana cittas. All sensations have feeling each. But feeling are not sensation. Feeling is restricted to 'vedana' in Paa.li. You may say that you can feel with your palm to hard object. But that 'feel' as a verb is 'touching'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Interviewer: Q 2. Are the Sensation and Fellings same? In what way ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already answered this above. They are not the same. They are different. Sensation are consciousness that know senses of different origin like 1. sight -->1. originated from sight 2. sound -->2. originated from sound 3. smell -->3. originated from smell 4. taste -->4. originated from taste 5. touch -->5. originated from touch 6. thought->6. originated from thought But all sensations do have a feeling. This is why you confused. The sameness in sensation and feeling are They 1. arise together 2. vanish together 3. attend the same object (say sight/sound/smell/taste/touch/thought) 4. ground the same base (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, heart-base) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Interviewer: Q 3. Are the sensation and feelings different? If so, what is exactly the relationship between the two ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Quite different. If you have carefully read above two answers this third question has automatically answered. They are different. When this is so, the exact relationship between sensations and feeling are 1. arise together 2. vanish together 3. take the same object 4. stand on the same ground as their base Felling has to depend on sensation and also sensation has to depend on feeling. Without one another cannot arise at all. This is the exact relationship. Patthaana Dhamma will explain this phenomena. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Interviewer: Q 4. Are they physiological or neurological impulses? OR effects due to samkharas or habitual behaviour? How to differentiate them ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are they? You asked 'Are they..'. So I will have to answer for both things. 1. They are Dhamma impulses. 2. They are physiological impulses. 3. They are neurological impulses. 4. They are effect due to sankhara. 5. Habitual behaviour may have effect on them grossly. How to differentiate? 1. Study dhamma and then meditate. You will definitely see them very clearly. 2. They are physiological impulses. Seeing is sensation of sight. This starts with light rays strike on objects and rays travel to eyes and they touch retina and then the impulses are carried down to headquarters. Hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking all are physiological impulses if you know physiology. 3. They are neurological impulses. Without neurone the impulses will not be carried to the headquarters. And then there will not be any sensations at all. 4. They effect due to sankhara or conditioning. 5. Habitual behaviour may have effect on sensation and feeling. Especially in thinking not on seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. Just to thinking. If thinking is well trained not to think sensations as agreeable or non-agreeable but think them just equanimously. The effect is not directly on stated 89 sensations but on sequences after initial arising of sensations. Example you may be sort of person who always is angry. But if you train yourself your behavious changes and this change becomes a habit later. Because of this habit angriness will not arise and instead there will be just equanimous feeling in sensation especially in thinking-sensation. So the answer is not directly on sensation and feeling but on 'SEQUENCES'. If you do not practise and there is tendency to be angry then the sequences after each seeing, hearing etc will be followed by angry mind-consciousness. If practise and change behaviour then the sequences of angriness will be replaced by more fasvourable sequences. --------------------------------------------------------------------- interviewer: Q 5. To whom does sensation and feelings occur - to Mind or Ego or consciousness ? and to who does these sensatin and feelings occur? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The answer will depend on how you understand the world. If you think individually, then sensation and feeling occur individually. If you accept beings, men, animals etc etc, the sensation and feeling occur in beings. Sensations and feeling do not occur in trees and plants but in animal kingdom and beings. If you think that mind is ego then both 'mind' and 'ego' are what that do not exist. That is 'ATTA'. Sensation and feeling do not arise in any atta. Because they themselves are anatta and they arise only in anatta. If you think consciousness is ego then both 'CONSCIOUSNESS' and 'EGO' are wrong concept. They look like atta according to your question. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think the next question is 6 and not 5. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Interviewer: > 5. What are the exact pali words for Sensation and Feelings? > Thank you in advance. > In Dharma, ~Maitreyi --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to Q 6. Sensation according to what I have explained in Paa.li is 'vinnaana' or 'citta'. And feeling according to what I have explained in Paa.li is 'vedanaa'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53329 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:17pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Again Htoo, I discussed this sutta with Robert K. before and I am not sure if it is authentic (or maybe not fully authentic). I don't have acess to my > copy of MN so I can't check it in detail now. Anyway, I still think > my response is adequate but I am not sure if my sutta support is that > great. > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, This is reply for both this one of yours and another post under this thread. I have sensed what you want to say. For authenticity of MN 117 (according to Tep) I will check it in the Original text. I would reply later. But for the time being I have been very busy with editing, translating and preparation for preaching Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53330 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I am a little bewildered by what you wrote: >N: Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to be aware naturally. Tep: But don't you think that right understanding is supported by right mindfulness and right effort? [See SN. XLVIII.50. Paragraph #75 in Wings to Awakening] Therefore, if right mindfulness needs right understanding as its requisite condition, then how can there be right mindfulness when there is no right understanding yet? Regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Dear friends, > (snipped) > > Each dhamma arises naturally. It is not natural if someone because of his ignorance wishes for the arising again of sati. We should not forget that paññå is developed for the purpose of detachment. Sati arises and then falls away, this is normal. Why does one wish for its arising again? Whenever there are conditions sati will arise. We should clearly understand that all realities appearing at this moment do so because there are conditions for their arising. If someone really understands this, he will not worry. Lobha will arise because there are conditions for its arising. Dosa will arise because there are conditions for its arising. Whatever reality arises must fall away again, and we cannot do anything else but study with sati sampajaññå, clear comprehension, the realities that arise and fall away. We know the truth, we know that whatever appears is just dhamma and this is in conformity with what we learnt by listening. In this way paññå is developed together with the study of realities. People should not merely study and then wait for the arising of satipaììhåna or wish for its arising. Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to be aware naturally. > Everything that concerns the development of paññå should be natural. When sati has fallen away, it has fallen away, and when it arises, it arises. In this way one will know the difference between the moment when sati arises and the moment when there is forgetfulness. > > > ***** > Nina. > 53331 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:30pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 kenhowardau Hi Phil, Don't let me interrupt - think of this more as an interjection. --------------------------- Ph: (quoting K Sujin) > > We > should thoroughly know everything that appears now, be it colour, sound or > thinking. Satipatth¡¦a should be aware of all realities so that it can be > understood that everything is truly dhamma. Ph: > Of course, A.Sujin's audience understands the way A. Sujin means "should" but people who are not familiar with her talks might take it the wrong way. ---------------- As a fellow enthusiast for the recorded talks, I agree, K Sujin doesn't want us worrying about the past or future, she always brings us back to the present moment. So, if she were to ask, for example, "What sense objects are arising now as we speak?" we might think, "Well, there is visible object and sound, . . . and touch is another one, and . . . . I SHOULD KNOW THIS!" :-) So "should" is being used with regard to the present moment. It is an encouraging realisation of the conditions for right understanding and of the urgent need for them. That same realisation and sense of urgency will condition right dhamma study to occur again in the future. Ken H 53332 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Again Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > > > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > > > > Metta, > > James > > > > > > > > After posting this sutta I realized that this is one of the suttas > that I have some issues with. The beginning of the sutta starts just > fine but then something very strange happens at the end of the sutta. > I discussed this sutta with Robert K. before and I am not sure if it > is authentic (or maybe not fully authentic). I don't have acess to my > copy of MN so I can't check it in detail now. Anyway, I still think > my response is adequate but I am not sure if my sutta support is that > great. > > Metta, > James --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Is that this statement? ''Even Vassa & Bhañña — those teachers from Okkala who were proponents of no-causality, no-action, & no-existence — would not think that this Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty should be censured & rejected. Why is that? For fear of criticism, opposition, & reproach.'' I will check it in the Original Text later. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53333 From: Harry Liew Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Small lesson 2 harryliew66 Dear Htoo Naing, Thanks for bringing up questions that have been bothering me but afraid or embarassing to ask. The following 'copy and paste' come from Charles Duroiselle's "A Practical Grammar of the Paali Language", 3rd Edition 1997 : ---------------------------------------------- Chapter 1 4. The sign of a long vowel is a dash placed over it. Besides the above three long vowels, all short vowels are prosodically long that come before a conjunct or double consonant: for instance, in bhikkhu, ra.t.tha and puppha, the -i before kkh, the -a before .t.th and the -u before pph are said to be long. Long also are a, i, u when followed by .m (niggahiita), as in: puppha.m, a flower; cakkhu.m, eye; kapi.m, monkey. (From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, prosody : the rhythmic and intonational aspect of language. Adverb: prosodically) Chapter3 34. The vowel preceding a conjunct consonant being prosodically long, the naturally long vowels: aa, ii, uu, are not allowed to stand before a double consonant. (From Chapter1: 12. Two consonants coming together form what is called a conjunct or double consonant. For instance, in: vassa, kattha and pandaapeti, the ss, tth, and nd, are conjunct consonants.) -------------------------------------------------- Metta, Harry htootintnaing wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 letters in Paa.li. They all can serve as consonents. There are 8 primary vowels namely a, aa, i, ii, u, uu, e, o. a,i,u 3 vowels are short vowels whereas aa,ii,uu,e,o 5 vowels are long vowel. <.....> 53334 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:50pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo (and all )- > > Your past posts indicate to me that the Buddha's words in those suttas > do not convince you about existence of order or sequence in the > practice (not just "for the purpose of teaching"). Now, if I say that the > famous Burmese monk, U Ba Khin, said the same thing, will you then > believe him? > > Read the following extract and think about it ! > > ................................... > "Impermanence (anicca) is, of course, the essential fact which must be > first experienced and understood by practice. Mere book-knowledge > of the Buddha-Dhamma will not be enough for the correct > understanding of Anicca because the experiential aspect will be > missing. It is only through experiential understanding of the nature of > Anicca as an ever-changing process within you that you can > understand Anicca in the way the Buddha would like you to understand > it. As in the days of the Buddha, so too now, this understanding of > Anicca can be developed by persons who have no book-knowledge > whatsoever of Buddhism. > > To understand Impermanence (anicca) one must follow strictly and > diligently the Eightfold Noble Path, which is divided into the three > groups of Sila, Samadhi and Pañña — Morality, Concentration and > Wisdom. Sila, or virtuous living, is he basis for Samadhi, control of the > mind leading to one-pointedness. It is only when Samadhi is good that > one can develop Pañña. Therefore, Sila and Samadhi are the > prerequisites for Pañña. By Pañña is meant the understanding of > Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta through the practice of Vipassana, i.e., > insight meditation." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khin/wheel231.html > > ....................................................... > > Regards, > > > Tep -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thank you very much as a friend. I can sense how good your intention is when you post this message. I almost always make a clear distinction in Dhamma. You might know that what my references are as I have mentioned these several times.I use the information for the best implication. I did not try to overload my memory space. I do read not read and every book on Dhamma. As you would know there are countless books now especially in this electronic and IT era. By the way someone has edited an on-line ebook and it is on Aanaapaanassati meditation. I think the meaning of 'sabba kaaya' is still moving, :-)) :-)) When I have my own distinction and clear view and proceeding well I do not have any doubt in Dhamma even though there are still debates here and there. One of the examples is the current issue of NEP and non-NEP. When talking about 'Jhaana' people are not that clear and they just quote books and texts written by others or presented by others. Some are even teaching to others while they themselves do not know what the objects of their jhaana are. I felt strange. If you and James and anyone believe that 'ruupavacara ruupa jhaanas' are necessary for attainment of path knowledge then try yourselves to attain ruupavacara ruupa jhaana first. I am not riding on both side. But I do not have doubt on Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries on these texts. Commentaries were by Sariputta Thera, Moggalaana Thera and so on. With Great Metta, Htoo Naing 53335 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:05pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Again Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > > > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > > > > Metta, > > James > > > > > > > > After posting this sutta I realized that this is one of the suttas > that I have some issues with. The beginning of the sutta starts just > fine but then something very strange happens at the end of the sutta. > I discussed this sutta with Robert K. before and I am not sure if it > is authentic (or maybe not fully authentic). I don't have acess to my > copy of MN so I can't check it in detail now. Anyway, I still think > my response is adequate but I am not sure if my sutta support is that > great. > > Metta, > James -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, In Majjhima Nikaaya 'uparipa.n.naasa' Paa.li Canon Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta says near ending that 'Ye pi te bhikkhave ahesu.m Okkalaa Vassabha~n~naa ahetuvaadaa akiriyavaadaa natthikavaadaa, tepi mahaacattaariisaka.m dhammapariyaaya.m na garahitabba.m na pa.tikkositabba.m ama~n~ni.m su. Ta.m kissa hetu? Nindaabyaarosa upaarambhabhayaati. Idamavoca bhagavaa. Attamanaa te bhikkhuu bhagavato bhaasita.m abhinandunti.' I would come back later again. It is not that strange. What is strange is 'the translation' not the Original Text. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53336 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Nina), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Ph: Could someone post a link to the post Sukin wrote about this > > topic, that Nina and Lodewijk discussed in some details? I've lost > > it, though I imagine I could find it in UPs. > ----- > N: Must have been Sept, before India, but I could not trace it anymore, > perhaps under pariyatti. ..... S: Yes, go to U.P. under 'Pariyatti, Patipatti, Pativedha' where you'll find some of Sukin's good posts. Pariyatti has to be with understanding right now. Also, you may like to look under 'Suta-maya panna etc' and 'Rounds -Sacca Nana etc' while you're there as I think you were asking about these. What else? You were also asking about the water through the thin paper or my photocopy example, see 'Navattaba (not so classifiable)'. At the same time, I'm reminded of K.Sujin's frequent reminders to us all 'not to over-reach'. In other words, if we can't understand (or keep forgetting) and it's a distraction from the understanding of present dhammas appearing, leave it aside for now as you often suggest you do. Sometimes she doesn't answer questions if she knows it's not appropriate for someone to hear or if they are getting lost in terms and Pali which they can't possibly understand and don't need to understand in order to develop satipatthana right now. Slowly and patiently..... Metta, Sarah ===== 53337 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:23pm Subject: Re: Small lesson 2 htootintnaing Dear Harry, Thanks a lot for your reply and interest in the post. I have a great interest in what you copy and paste in your reply. Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Harry Liew wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Harry: Dear Htoo Naing, Thanks for bringing up questions that have been bothering me but afraid or embarassing to ask. The following 'copy and paste' come from Charles Duroiselle's "A Practical Grammar of the Paali Language", 3rd Edition 1997 : ---------------------------------------------- Harry quote: Chapter 1 4. The sign of a long vowel is a dash placed over it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is where special characters are available. When not available double 'short vowel' are used to distinguish between short and long vowel. Example; Ananda and Aanandaa That is fine and it is not the current issue you make. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Harry's quote: Besides the above three long vowels, all short vowels are prosodically long that come before a conjunct or double consonant: for instance, in bhikkhu, ra.t.tha and puppha, the -i before kkh, the -a before .t.th and the -u before pph are said to be long. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please check again in your text. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Harry's quote: Long also are a, i, u when followed by .m (niggahiita), as in: puppha.m, a flower; cakkhu.m, eye; kapi.m, monkey. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree and this should be added in the list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Harry's quote: (From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, prosody : the rhythmic and intonational aspect of language. Adverb: prosodically) Chapter3 34. The vowel preceding a conjunct consonant being prosodically long, the naturally long vowels: aa, ii, uu, are not allowed to stand before a double consonant. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. Even when long vowel such as 'e' and 'o' are in front of conjunct consonents they become short vowel. Ettha , Ottappa --------------------------------------------------------------------- Harry's quote: (From Chapter1: 12. Two consonants coming together form what is called a conjunct or double consonant. For instance, in: vassa, kattha and pandaapeti, the ss, tth, and nd, are conjunct consonants. -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True are they. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Harry --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The purpose of this short post is to sense the sounding in Paa.li as they do have separate sounding or pronunciation. Some Paa.li words should be adopted as English words in Specialist Dictionary like 'Theravaada Buddhists' Dictionary'. Otherwise there might be confusion. As you might know there are a lot of debate because of these wording problems. Example is Anicca. Just adopt it as English word. That is simple. Explain in the dictionary. Instead of adopting people use some words with close meaning but not exact in nature. Anicca = impermanence Anicca = inconstant Anicca = fleeting How do you think??? With Metta, Htoo Naing 53338 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:23pm Subject: Re: Prayer philofillet Hi Christine Haven't read it, but my response is what most people's would be. No, because prayer means supplication to a higher power. So out of the question from a purist's point of view. But in my opinion some practices that are technically wrong can be helpful if they give us some emotional comfort on the long path, as long as we know they are wrong. For example, in one of the talks I heard you asking about metta for oneself. Technically speaking, we know it doesn't make sense (as intentionally generating metta doesn't make sense, period) but if such practices provide emotional stability, and we know they are wrong, I think they're ok. Understanding will develop and show the weaknesses of such practices, and in the meantime we will be comforted. We know that understanding can be developed of any paramattha dhamma, and choosing objects is incorrect, but I don't think we can develop understanding if we are emotional wrecks. More subtle wrong practices might not be revealed by understanding. They are the ones that we should be careful not to take up. But something obviously technically wonky such as prayer or generating metta out of thin air, hey, if it helps maintain an emotional balance that helps us have conditions for developing understanding, I think it's reasonable to have our little crutches. I do, involving kindness rippling.... Playing with fire? I don't think so, because it is so obviously not correct Dhamma. Panna will see through it, and in the meantime, we can carry on. Life is hard and there is a long way to go until even the first stage of enlightenment. My opinion. Phil p.s I'm not assuming you would take up Buddhist prayer - just remember what you asked about metta for oneself so am responding more to that. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > Is there a place for prayer in Theravada Buddhism? Ajahn Munindo > thinks so. > http://www.ratanagiri.org.uk/Book/book4/12.htm > Any thoughts? > > metta, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 53339 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:36pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Sukinder (Attn. RobK, James, Sarah, Htoo, Joop)- > > I am pleased to see you back to the message board today. So you > may have time to look at my reply to your questions in # 53206 and tell > me what you think of them. Of course, you will disagree ! {:->|) -------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Friend, are you really leaving DSG for good? Good are they, may they stay, Ways away playing hail. Books are they, may they pay, Ways trail swaying tales. Friends Alway, Htoo 53340 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 philofillet Thanks Sarah, for the UP tips. > At the same time, I'm reminded of K.Sujin's frequent reminders to us all > 'not to over-reach'. In other words, if we can't understand (or keep > forgetting) and it's a distraction from the understanding of present > dhammas appearing, leave it aside for now as you often suggest you do. This is so important. Lobha is very sneaky, and usually clouds over our intentional efforts to figure things out - often dressed up as chanda. We understand what we can, not what we want to. Still, wholesome virya and chanda can arise and lead to the stretching of our previous capacity to understand. We don't want to be lazy about tackling difficult points. Balance.... > Sometimes she doesn't answer questions if she knows it's not appropriate > for someone to hear I still think she should have answered that question from azita about motion. grrr.... :) Phil 53341 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: Sukin's long reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti htootintnaing 'Panca gu.na.m aha.m vandaami' Dear Sukin, I am replying your nutritive post. With respect, Htoo Naing ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, I will be doing much snipping in order to make my response less long. ;-) ===================================== Htoo: It's OK. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > [Htoo is strangely repeating for several times in his mind that > Sukin said pariyatti and patipatti arise and fall away...... ...] Sukinder: Yes, and could you explain why? ====================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pariyatti is not a citta. Pariyatti is not a cetasika. Pariyatti is not a ruupa. Pariyatti is not a nibbana. Go and ask K Sujin, please. 1. Would she say pariyatti is a citta? 2. Would a cetasika? 3. Would she --- --------- is a ruupa? 4. Would she --- --------- is nibbana? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > What do you think is the citta which understands correctly in > conceptual terms the Dhamma? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Not everything that understands correctly is panna. Newton > understood the law of physics correctly. Is it panna when he > realized that there must be gravity? Sukinder: No it wouldn't be panna, and this is why I referred particularly to `Dhamma' in my question. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even in case of Dhamma there is possibility that there is almost the same implication like Newton's laws. Because Dhamma are also laws. Even though understanding may condition later realization the initial understanding may also like understanding in Newton's Laws. I do not think just-readers have experiential understanding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Can it be akusala? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Kusalas are always accompanied by saddhaa, which is a clarity in > mind and that clarity help pannaa see things very very clearly. > And sati, which is mindfulness to do profitable things or kusala > things. > And many others mental factors that are totally different from > mental factors present in akusala cittas. > So my answer to your question 'Can it be akusala?' will be ''Depends > on what the citta has associated mental factors. > If you understand Dhamma with lobha then it is DEFINITELY akusala > citta. Sukinder: You must be referring to `thinking about' and perhaps with `reason and logic' string ideas together and create the impression of knowing and understanding. This can be with lobha of course. But it is not the `understanding' I am referring to. In my system, understanding (panna) is associated with Dhamma and therefore can't be with Lobha. ========================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I continue to discuss with you. You are the wise man. You can pin point. I WOULD BOLDLY SAY 'All pa~n~naa never associated with lobha while wisdom, understanding, appreciation, realization, knowledge all may or may not be associated with lobha'. If you consistently say that 'Understanding is important and it is not associated with lobha' I would deny. But if you say 'pa~n~naa' I would not. BUT Who knows that particular one billionth of a blink which is just under split second? You Sukin know? Your Great teacher A Sujin knows? Anyone in DSG knows? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Is it nana sampayutta? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The same applies as above. Understanding with lobha is akusala. > > Examples: Someone is reading a Dhamma book. He understands > dhamma as > the book says. He extremely satisfied. But he does not know lobha > arising. So he is said to be developing lobha when he understand > what the book says. Sukinder: Cittas arise and fall so fast and kusala and akusala will alternate. What do you think of my understanding above, do you agree with it? ===================================== -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is definitely assumption. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > If so, then this cittas does arise and fall no? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Ha ha ha ha. [Excuse me, Hmmm Hmmm] > Citta does arise and citta does falls away. But pariyatti does not > arise and fall away. Sukinder: You can be quite confusing Htoo. From your response sometimes it is hard to know if whether you are smiling/laughing because you agree or because you disagree. And sometimes the overall impression I get is that you are putting one foot on both sides. So please state you position more clearly. Besides, I am known to be quite simple-minded when it comes to `indirect suggestions'. ;-) ===================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do know you are a good-natured man. I got off-line messages. I have discussed about pariyatti whether it arise or not. 1. Is pariyatti a citta? 2. Is pariyatti a cetasika? 3. Is pariyatti a ruupa? 4. Is pariyatti nibbana? 5. Then what is pariyatti? Is it a paramattha dhamma? I have to ask because you may like ultimate realities. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Ask Nina whether 'citta' is a name or not, whether 'citta' is a > pannatti or not, whether pariyatti is pannatti or not. She will > explain you to your satisfaction. Sukinder: Yes, Sukin is more simple-minded than he realizes, and Nina is too busy. So I'll post an extract of her post to Phil and you can comment on it: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I will be reading. Maybe I might reply that post in this extract. :-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin posted an extract of Nina's post to phil: >> N: As you say, sankhara khanda means mental factors/cetasikas. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo to Nina: It should have been 'sa`nkhaara -kkhandhaa' or 'sa`nkharakkhandha'. It is dha and it is not da. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin extract of Nina's post to Phil continued: Except feeling and saññaa. Intellectual understanding is paññaa cetasika, it arises together with confidence, sati, detachment (alobha), adosa (makes one patient!), determination, manasikara, intention, and many sobhana cetasikas. These arise and fall away but they are accumulated in the next citta, on and on. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it should not be 'Intellectual understanding = pa~n~naa cetasika'. If this is true Newton might have developed 'pa~n~naa' when he drew out Laws of motion. Is 'intention' a cetasika? I do know 'attention' is a cetasika. Accumulated is not that right word to explain this phenomena. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin's extract of Nina's post to Phil continued: When it is the right time they are the condition for intellectual understanding again, and thus it grows gradually. When there was only consideration of lobha and other dhammas, sankhara khanda is an accumulated condition for more consideration and later on for sati and direct understanding. << ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: khanda should have been khandha. ====================================== > Sukin: > Let us now consider this understanding, `thinking is not the same as > direct experience'. > Is this necessarily associated with panna? I think it can, but not > necessary. Every religion teaches this and even every new- > age philosophy would come to the same conclusion. It does not take > panna to see this. What does require panna is what follows from this > conclusion. > Based on the predominant wrong view or any level of right view, a > person will have ideas about `what is, and what should be'. You can > be sure that if there is not the level of panna which then > experiences a paramattha dhamma, any `seeking' will be with `wrong > view'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Are you saying Prince Siddattha was wrong to search or wrong to > seek > the answer by going into forest, sitting under the Bo tree for 6 > years and then frequently sat under trees, in quiet place? Sukinder: Here we come to the main point. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sukin seems to be with a BIG SMILE. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I made the distinction between Saddha which arises with kusala citta of samatha, and that which arises with the knowledge of the Buddha's Teachings. I understand that the saddha and panna connected with dana, sila and samatha Bhavana can arise without the Buddha Sasana. In which case the Bodhisatta when he saw the sick man, the dead body, the recluse and so on, they were the conditions for this type of panna. Even though he had the accumulations for the other type of panna almost to the full by then, this did not arise until his Enlightenment. Or maybe it was the Cintamaya panna you refer to later in this post that took effect? In any case, his going away from the household life to seek solitude, was with the understanding not of the level that understood conditioned realities. And this is why it resulted in practices that were not the Middle Way. After he finally got enlightened and discovered the Middle Way, there was no need for the idea of a quieter and better place to be suggested to anyone. He did not encourage anyone to `think' as he did before his Enlightenment, *because his understanding now had changed*. =================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My palms are together and three vows to you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > And this happens so fast before any thinking even arises, that what > ever the thoughts are, we will follow it and be convinced by any > reasoning and logic associated with that. However, if one has heard > enough of the correct dhamma, there can be instead an intellectual > understanding of what is going on and so even if there did arise any > idea associated with craving, it can be corrected and stopped right > there. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To be continued: 53342 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Regarding confusion of sensation and feeling, I agree with your translations of these words but one source of confusion is that the popular meditation teacher S. N. Goenka translates vedana as "sensation". Another possible confusion is that vedana, even vedana that accompanies like or dislike (lobha, dosa) seems (to me) to be located in the body. We feel vedana in the body but it is different from hot/cold, soft/hard, etc. In that sense they could rightly be called sensations. How do you experience this? Larry 53343 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! Joop gazita2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Azita > > Glad to hear you like my name > What makes me curious is how you 'practice' yoyr Buddhism, > if 'pactice' is the right word. > I mean, I think you don't formal meditate. But you read read much and > do you have rituals? > > Metta > > Joop Hello Joop, "Practise" is not a word I would use. I don't read much altho I'm beginning to read more than I did in ht e past. Maybe listening to MP3 could be considered 'ritual' but its doesn't feel ritualistic. I often lite a candle and burn incense sticks near a little buddha shelf in my house - maybe that's ritualistic, I like to think of it as paying respect to the triple gem. If by 'formal meditation' u mean sitting on a cushion - or whatever - for a length of time and attempting to focus thoughts on one object, no I don't do this altho sometimes I sit and do pranayama, which is a type of yogic breathing - good for the health. I contemplate what I've heard, read and ask questions when I don't understand some aspect of Buddha's words. Personally, I believe I've become a better person since I've focussed more of my attention on the Dhamma, I believe I have more understanding of the Dhamma and ....well that's about it for now, Joop. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 53344 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. Sayonara, Htoo ! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I asked you a simple question that deserves a straightforward answer. But just look at what I got for my simple, single question: > Htoo: > > Thank you very much as a friend. I can sense how good your intention is when you post this message. I almost always make a clear > distinction in Dhamma. You might know that what my references are as I have mentioned these several times.I use the information for the > best implication. > > I did not try to overload my memory space. I do read not read and > every book on Dhamma. As you would know there are countless books now especially in this electronic and IT era. By the way someone has edited an on-line ebook and it is on Aanaapaanassati meditation. I think the meaning of 'sabba kaaya' is still moving, :-)) :-)) > > When I have my own distinction and clear view and proceeding well I > do not have any doubt in Dhamma even though there are still debates here and there. One of the examples is the current issue of NEP and non-NEP. > > When talking about 'Jhaana' people are not that clear and they just > quote books and texts written by others or presented by others. Some are even teaching to others while they themselves do not know what the objects of their jhaana are. I felt strange. > > If you and James and anyone believe that 'ruupavacara ruupa jhaanas' are necessary for attainment of path knowledge then try yourselves to attain ruupavacara ruupa jhaana first. > > I am not riding on both side. But I do not have doubt on Sutta, > Vinaya and Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries on these texts. > Commentaries were by Sariputta Thera, Moggalaana Thera and so on. > Tep: Phew! I give up. Good luck and good bye, Tep ========= 53345 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:00pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada nichiconn Hi, Joop, Connie: "English words can be real stumbling blocs" Joop: Reading your message as a not native english speaker I must say: agree What was the message to me or the question to me? Connie: <> reminded me of part of your Ven. Vajita quote and I thought you might like another wording of the ideas. I think I am shooting myself in the foot not reading pali, but am still happy to have the use of this inferior english ammo. Nina's "stumbling blocs" by the way; I was quoting from UP. In general, what I think when I read some of your posts is that 'evolving tradition' is a contradiction in terms or an oxymoron, I don't know, but an impossibility and DisRegarding tradition hastens its demise. Not that there are any today, but arahats must ordain or die. If the monastic tradition does not fit or work in a given society, where does the fault lie? Does anyone care to sell Vinaya cheap? Some say there are "ordained nuns" today and I wonder if it isn't enough for now that "lay nuns" make that quarter of the 4 assemblies. What after all, is "nun"? Nothing stops us from advancing our own theories or practices, even to calling them Dhamma-Vinaya, unless we are correctable. Who cares to beat dead horses? We will grandfather you in, I think. If you haven't already, please send your photo for DOJO luminosity filter processing at your earliest convenience. peace, connie 53346 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:27pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! sukinderpal Dear Tep (* for Nina and Sarah), I saw this while copying and pasting your post into Word and I thought that I should respond to it immediately. --------------------------------- Tep: I'll be glad to hear what you have to say. Let's clean the sleigh before I leave DSG for good. That day is near. --------------------------------- I know that you will often feel frustrated with the responses and posts in general here on DSG. Your views and those of some of us, is quite different and you are almost alone in your attempt to try and convince us. This requires quite a bit of stamina and so it can be quite tiring sometimes. I know you do it already, but I would still like to suggest that you should just skip reading any post whose writing style and contents may make you feel quite exhausted, for example my own. I too skip many posts, including some of your own; of course none of us are perfect. And though sometimes I may not care if you stayed or left, it is not my feeling at this moment. I consider DSG to be the best discussion group on the net, and I think that K. Sujin's interpretation of the Dhamma is the "right" one, and obviously you and some others do not agree. Anyhow, from my perspective, it would be unfortunate if you or any other active member should leave, for I think that you would be deprived of that which I value so much. I consider anyone who cares to 'listen' here, as having some "seed" of right understanding, and conditions are so complex that we can't know who at what time may suddenly "see" dhamma. So I urge you Tep, please don't consider leaving DSG, just don't feel obliged to respond to or even read all the posts. * For Nina and Sarah. Yesterday at the discussions I was very pleased to see a Swedish man whose name is Knowing come there. He had come the Sunday before, but there were no discussions then. Knowing had read an article by Nina in some Buddhist journal 35 years ago. He said that it impressed him greatly, so much so that he though that it was "'THE' real thing". He had since then tried to look for other writings by Nina but found nothing. Meanwhile he had gone off and tried other practices (so called vipassana meditation) including like me, to having a great interest in Krishnamurti. However all this while the ideas expressed in that particular article by Nina "stuck" and he felt quite dissatisfied with those other Buddhist practices. Then just two weeks ago while browsing through the library of the WFB, he found one of Nina's books and there at the back he got the phone number and address of the Foundation. And yesterday, while I was driving him (and his friend Innas, some one he just met in Laos) back to Khaosarn Road, he expressed his feelings, saying that this was a very eventful day for him. He was really pleased to have met K. Sujin and looks forward to meeting Nina in February. :-) I think you will both be pleased to hear this. Tep, again I urge you, please don't leave. Metta, Sukin 53347 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! sarahprocter... Dear Tep, > Tep: > I'll be glad to hear what you have to say. Let's clean the sleigh before > I > leave DSG for good. That day is near. > --------------------------------- S: I'm behind on my reading and just stepped in from a trip to the beach and about to do some editing, so no time to write now, but I want to just say that I have several of your posts put aside for replies which I intend to give priority to tomorrow and/or Tuesday. Please bear with us and 'hang in' with a little patience. Of course, often we don't address your questions appropriately or in the way they deserve. Often there are also different understandings. However, I'd like to say from my point of view, that I greatly value your contributions - questions, summaries and comments here. Many of the questions I raised on our last trips to Thailand and India were arising as a result of our discussions which had helped me to reflect further. I appreciate this a lot. (When the next India recordings are made available, you may find it interesting to listen for this reason). I consider you a 'core' member of DSG who helps us all to question, check and consider a lot. I hope you'll continue to support us. Thanks again for all your assistance to date and will speak more in a day or two:-). Metta, Sarah (in Hong Kong, round the corner from where the WTO meetings, American hotels and demonstrations are planned during the week - everyone is in 'brace postion' here, shops barricading up, rubbish bins removed, hotel security in place, over-pass bridges covered in nets etc) p.s Tep, may Sukin and we send you a copy of 'Survey' which you may find useful from time to time for reference? Pls email him or one of us if so. Larry? Howard? James? Any other 'regulars' or 'core members' who haven't requested a copy, please do if it would be of interest. Forget about Phil and Connie's Dojo:-):-). If we didn't have 'Dojo busters' here, there'd be no dynamic discussion list and we'd all be dark silhouettes -- the keen questioning helps bring those glimmers of light:-). =============================== 53348 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 0:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > ... Dear Htoo Thanks for your message. Most of it did not give me problems. One question is already asked by James, I will not repeat it. Another question is about this remark of you: Htoo: "> My questions were planned so that they did not contain flaws. For > that I had to include 'perfect'. > If still not perfect one that is if we are not talking NEP then we are right." Joop: I don't understand that especially "perfect" will not give "flaws" I have the opposite way of reasoning, using the metaphore of "horizon". With clear weather and when my eyes function well (not every day) than my horizon is (say) 50 kilometer. Under bad conditions it's 5 or less. What there is beyond the horizon of 50 kilometer I can only speculate and I Fhave learned from lessons in my life: don't speculate. In my spiritual situation my "horizon" is getting streamenterer (on my spiritual good days); that is just the edge, I think. Beyond that: the effect of being streamenterer, "Perfect", arahant, nibbana I can only speculate and I will not do that. My question is: did I understand you well? Metta Joop 53349 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 philofillet Hi Ken and Nina K > As a fellow enthusiast for the recorded talks, I agree, K Sujin > doesn't want us worrying about the past or future, she always brings > us back to the present moment. This is precisely what is so good about those talks - I don't know if it's partially due to the medium, whether there is something more direct about listening. I think there may be. But mostly it is the emphasis she places on knowing paramattha dhammas of the moment, to whatever shallow degree we are capable. K > So "should" is being used with regard to the present moment. It is an > encouraging realisation of the conditions for right understanding and > of the urgent need for them. That same realisation and sense of > urgency will condition right dhamma study to occur again in the > future. Yes, the "should" is more like our duty to appreciate the rare opportunity of applying the Buddha's teaching. Still, I think there is a danger in thinking that this understanding of paramattha dhammas is something that can be applied at will, perhaps as a comforter in daily life - so I am still wary of "should." But I do know that she doesn't mean it as a recommended method, rather as a deep duty. Nina, your English is impeccable. I'm sure the Thai word you are translating equivalates to "should." Phil 53350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Hi Phil, op 11-12-2005 01:14 schreef Phil op philco777@...: Sarah:>> At the same time, I'm reminded of K.Sujin's frequent reminders to > us all >> 'not to over-reach'. In other words, if we can't understand (or > keep >> forgetting) and it's a distraction from the understanding of > present >> dhammas appearing, leave it aside for now as you often suggest you > do. > > This is so important. Lobha is very sneaky, and usually clouds over > our intentional efforts to figure things out - often dressed up as > chanda. ------ N: Lovely reminders from Sarah. Trying to know can be too much and a distraction from present dhammas. I like this: I just heard this: Phil, it CAN BE DONE. Otherwise the Buddha would not say so. Just now Lodewijk called me to help with the matrasses, and he said: hardness, softness. He also said that it is not true that understanding cannot be developed when we are busy. Let me finish with Ken H's good reminder, much appreciated: Yes, there is an urgent need of the conditions for right understanding. Ph: I still think she should have answered that question from azita > about motion. grrr.... :) ----- N: We hear the word motion or pressure, and have conventional ideas about it. When the characteristic appears (but it may not appear, who knows), it becomes clearer. Nina. 53351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Hi Sarah, I do not know how to reach U.P. I just see: messages. I cannot find Sukin's post Sept. Nina. op 11-12-2005 00:08 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: >> N: Must have been Sept, before India, but I could not trace it anymore, >> perhaps under pariyatti. > ..... > S: Yes, go to U.P. under 'Pariyatti, Patipatti, Pativedha' where you'll > find some of Sukin's good posts. Pariyatti has to be with understanding > right now. 53352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Sukin and Tep. nilovg Hi Tep and Sukin, I am endorsing Sukin. I like your question, Tep, on right understanding. I truly understand that hearing the same may be frustrating for you and others. Tep, I was just thinking that it makes all the difference to meet people life for discussion. Things come over more clearly, less misunderstandings. I was thinking of your daughter in Japan, are you not going to visit her, via Bgk? You would fit nicely into the foundation discussions, no need to agree. But you are so keen and well read in the suttas, also appreciating Abhidhamma and co. I am really happy about that. As you know many of us are there in Febr. In Japan you could meet Rob K and Phil. Sukin, I feel really glad that Mr. Knowing kept his interest over the years, and real nice to meet him. Meanwhile you could direct him to Rob K's web, and can't he join dsg? He can ask questions already. Nice input for all of us, so helpful. Also Rob K had a similar experience, he did not hear from someone for years and then that person phoned and said that he had not forgotten what he heard. It clicked after many years. Nina. op 11-12-2005 05:27 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@...: > --------------------------------- > > So I urge you Tep, please don't consider leaving DSG, just don't feel > obliged to respond to or even read all the posts. 53353 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 philofillet Hi Nina, thanks for the stirring e-mail. I know it can be done. I do think that it would be dangerous, however, if we were to think "I should be aware of characteristics of realities now." Then it is just lobha, no different from sitting on a cushion and thinking there should be sati now. But as I wrote to Ken, I know A. Sujin doesn't mean it in this way. There is a danger to take it in that way, however, and I found myself doing it. > Ph: I still think she should have answered that question from azita > > about motion. grrr.... :) > ----- > N: We hear the word motion or pressure, and have conventional ideas about > it. When the characteristic appears (but it may not appear, who knows), it > becomes clearer. You see, I didn't know that the motion rupa is actually closer to what we think of as pressure until I googled your book on rupas. Since A. Sujin has written extensively about Paramattha Dhammas (or talked and had the talks transcribed) it is fair to expect her to answer a question about the characteristic of the motion rupa, just with a few quick words. Understanding the characteristics intellectually is a necessary first condition to understanding them in a deeper way. It starts with book knowledge that we learn by rote, and then starts to go deeper, ever so gradually. It is fun to note how everytime that talk comes around on my ipod I get slightly irritated. Nothing serious, just interesting. I wonder where Dan is these days? He has an interesting perspective, if I recall correctly, that no book knowledge whatsoever is necessary before understanding can arise. I disagree, but found his perspective quite interesting. Phil 53354 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > I do not know how to reach U.P. I just see: messages. I cannot find > Sukin's > post Sept. ... S: Try this: 1. Go to DSG homepage 2. Click on 'Files' 3. Scroll down to 'Useful Posts - November' 4. Click on 'P' in the alphabet at the top 5. Go down to 'Pariyatti...etc' 6. Start clicking on the highest number at the end (for recent posts) which will take you to a post. If it's not the right one, press 'back' and try the next. I just tried and thought you might mean this message of Sukin's, but it's from May, so I don't know which you mean. Perhaps you can try the others or Sukin can help you. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45138 Metta, Sarah ========= 53355 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Nina - > > I am a little bewildered by what you wrote: > >N: Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to > be aware naturally. > Dear Tep In the hope my silly remarks don't interfere to much in your discussion with Nina, there is something in your way of reasoning I don't understand. Tep: "But don't you think that right understanding is supported by right mindfulness and right effort? [See SN. XLVIII.50. Paragraph #75 in Wings to Awakening] Therefore, if right mindfulness needs right understanding as its requisite condition, then how can there be right mindfulness when there is no right understanding yet?" Joop: In line with my message #53327 to you: Why are you taking "right understanding", "right mindfulness" and "right effort" so absolute, as if somebody "has" them or "has not" them. Why isn't it possible for you to think that somebody has a little understanding etc? A way of thinking of a spiritual process of gradual awakening? Metta Joop 53356 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing Joop wrote: Dear Htoo Thanks for your message. Most of it did not give me problems. One question is already asked by James, I will not repeat it. Another question is about this remark of you: > Htoo: "> My questions were planned so that they did not contain > flaws. For > that I had to include 'perfect'. > If still not perfect one that is if we are not talking NEP then we are right." Joop: I don't understand that especially "perfect" will not give "flaws" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Joop, I included 'perfect'. Perfect already means 100%. Right view only perfects at real ariyan state. That is when stream- entering path knowledge arises. This knowledge arises when stream- entering path consciousness arises. So, if not perfect then anything before this will be less than perfect. When path consciousness arise there are all path factors. They all are path factors of 'right' or sammaa. They are supported each other and one another. While in training these will not be as perfect as ariyas. But what I said was 'teaching purpose' and not 'training purpose. For teaching purpose there are siila, samaadhi, and pannaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: I have the opposite way of reasoning, using the metaphore of "horizon". With clear weather and when my eyes function well (not every day) than my horizon is (say) 50 kilometer. Under bad conditions it's 5 or less. What there is beyond the horizon of 50 kilometer I can only speculate and I Fhave learned from lessons in my life: don't speculate. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is good. So you are talking experiencial knowledge? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: In my spiritual situation my "horizon" is getting streamenterer (on my spiritual good days); that is just the edge, I think. Beyond that: the effect of being streamenterer, "Perfect", arahant, nibbana I can only speculate and I will not do that. My question is: did I understand you well? Metta Joop --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: At least reaching the edge is better than state of even not seeing the edge. I think you understand me. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53357 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing Dear Larry, Thanks for your reply. Wording has to be understood by both parties of speaker (writer) and listener (reader). If that wording is universal then it will be conventionally accepted words. Universality will also depend on individuality. Example; while more than 90 percent of world population may understand some words the remaining 10 percent may not know them. Here the word 'sensation' is not accurate for Buddhists' term for 'feeling' or vedana, 'consciousness' or citta, 'object' or arammana. Please see below for some points. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Hi Htoo, Regarding confusion of sensation and feeling, I agree with your translations of these words but one source of confusion is that the popular meditation teacher S. N. Goenka translates vedana as "sensation". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said in my opening paragraph, conveying od the meaning will depend on the speakers themselves and the listeners to the speech. If he can explain well not opposing The Buddha Teachings then it will be good. Vedana is not equal to pain. Vedana is not equal to sensation. Vedana is not equal to consciousness. If the above three are to be said they have to be further explained. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Another possible confusion is that vedana, even vedana that accompanies like or dislike (lobha, dosa) seems (to me) to be located in the body. We feel vedana in the body but it is different from hot/cold, soft/hard, etc. In that sense they could rightly be called sensations. How do you experience this? Larry --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They seem to be located in the body because they do arise grounding on hadaya vatthu or heart-base. But as they are naama dhamma and hadaya is ruupa dhamma they actually are not there a mixed phenomena. They just co-arise. Because of this co-arising there has to arise confusion. Only when vedana is well learned it will be possible that vedanaaupassanaa satipatthaana will be much more efficient. We might need further discussion on these words so that the matter becomes clearer and clearer. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53358 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:23am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. Sayonara, Htoo ! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > I asked you a simple question that deserves a straightforward answer. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I have been repeatedly receiving sayonara since 2003 mid-year. So it is not new to me. What is more important is that I can be the servant of anyone whenever they need help in any form. When help is not needed I can be left alone. I do enjoy soltitude. Some people teach 'metta' bhavana. But on the other hand, if these teachers were found in angriness how would they be reliable for their metta teaching. Some even do not know the object of metta meditation, karuna meditation, mudita meditation. Metta is ALWAYS ALWAYS good thing. Metta is always associated with saddhaa (faith/confidence that is clarity in wholesome things) and sati (mindfulness in doing wholesome things or unforgetfulness in doing wholesome things) and many other beautiful mental factors. Metta does not necessarily need to be accompanied by pannaa (wisdom). But metta as a bhavana does need pannaa. Otherwise it will not be a bhavanaa or metta meditation. When it is true metta, there is no lobha like expectation. Nina wrote on loving kindness long time ago which is a translation of A Sujin's work. The whole book is perfect. No flaws. And the contents are also perfect. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53359 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:42am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo (and all )- Your past posts indicate to me that the Buddha's words in those suttas do not convince you about existence of order or sequence in the practice (not just "for the purpose of teaching"). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question, what he believed to be a question that needs to be answered directly: Now, if I say that the famous Burmese monk, U Ba Khin, said the same thing, will you then believe him? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Htoo's tactful answer, which otherwise would not be seen by ordinary readers. (This answer was already in Htoo's original reply.) 'I did not try to overload my memory space. I do read not read and every book on Dhamma. As you would know there are countless books now especially in this electronic and IT era. By the way someone has edited an on-line ebook and it is on Aanaapaanassati meditation. I think the meaning of 'sabba kaaya' is still moving, :-)) :-))' I did not read U Ba Khin's books or any of his literature. And I did not even overload by brain-space with the extract you included. That is I read because you put in in your reply. But I did not pay a space for it. With this post and previous post what happen will come to clarity. I do not cling to friendship. But if you and anyone need any help I will be happy to service provided I have facilities to do so like computers, time, internet access. Q. 'Will you believe him?' Is this question for fact or opinion? Is this question for exploration of personal belief? Is this question deserve straight forward answer? May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Before your post of Sayonara came out I already expect there will be something like that coming out as usual. :-)) Like Suikin I would strongly suggest you not to leave DSG. But this depends. 53360 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 589 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, sammaa-ditthi, sammaa-sankappa sammaa-vaacaa, samaa-kammanta, samaa-aajiiva sammaa-vaayama, samaa-sati, samaa-samaadhi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here comes sammaa-aajiiva or right livelihood. Bhagavaa said, ''Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaa aajiivo? Idha bhikkhave ariya saavako micchaa aajiiva.m pahaaya sammaa aajiiveneva jiivita.m kappeti, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa aajiivo.'' 'Which is, Monks, right livelihood? In this dispensation of mine Noble disciple deserts wrong livelihood and lives on right livelihood. This (deserting wrong livelihood and keeping on right livelihood) can be called as right livelihood. Any life sustaining supports that are obtained through killing, stealing, sense-misconducting, improper speech or that is any life sustaining supports that are products of committing akusala already mentioned. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53361 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:30am Subject: Re: Sukin's long reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti htootintnaing Continued: =================================== > Sukin: > And this happens so fast before any thinking even arises, that what > ever the thoughts are, we will follow it and be convinced by any > reasoning and logic associated with that. However, if one has heard > enough of the correct dhamma, there can be instead an intellectual > understanding of what is going on and so even if there did arise any > idea associated with craving, it can be corrected and stopped right > there. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat > here again. > > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat > here for the third time. > > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. Sukinder: Please explain. ================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am explaining here about why you (Sukin) and some DSGs are looking at a single life. There have been infinite lives. Even Well-Gone-One (Sugata) had had infinite lives. When Bodhisatta became Bodhisattahood He already had fulfilled 16 asancheyya to become a Sammasambuddha. Before that there had been many many infinite lives. You Sukin and me Htoo also have had many many lives in the past. Likewise almost all beings who are currently beings have had countless past lives. As you said pannaa accumulates. It is carried over from one citta to next citta. Likewise kamma is also carried over from one citta to next citta. There were many various and different stories of who attained ariyahood in many different ways. Even though someone has not known anything in Dhamma in this life he or she might have accumulated in many of previous lives. This potentiality cannot be seen by any of us or any beings except Bhagavaa, The Buddha. A single hint can precipitate to full arising of something. Examples; Someone has accumulated dosa or aversion. Many lives in the past were fulfilled with aversion. In this very life that person may well be calm and full of knowledge and may know all Tipitaka very well. But when a single hint that would dig up her accumulation arises then there is precipitation and there arise extreme dosa. That single hint might be a particular colour, a particular sound, a particular smell, a particular taste, a particular touch, a particular thought. Because of hint there arise full version of dosa like 'accumulate with your akusala and so on'. Another example is Culapanthaka Thera. He did not study well in Dhamma even in theoretical understanding. He could not memorise even a single verse. But because of a hint (change of colour of rug when he rubbed against the ground) he started to remember the old accumulated pannaa that is 'the things change' and finally attain arahatship with 4 discriminative knowledge and abhinaa or superpower. Any *doing* that you and many DSGs do not like may support as a hint. If a single life of this only is counted then one has to study to theoretically understand all Tipitaka. Even in Tipitakadhara or the bearers of all Tipitaka by heart do have certain difficulty at some particular point let alone ordinary monks or ordinary people who study Tipitaka in all areas. The Buddha preached for 45 years. At least 45 years will be required to study Tipitaka texts. For you it may well take more than that as there will need put a further lesson on Paa.li whereas monks have to compulsorily be taught Paa.li and its grammar (I do not know other countries apart from Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, Lao, and Cambodia whether Paa.li is a subject in Buddhist Education). In this case when a person has to live only for 40 years then every opportunity would have been missed. I do not just look at a single life. Today stupid guy might become a smart guy tomorrow. There is a thin margin. That thinness is because of precipitation by hints on previously accumulated things (that is in many of lives). You just look at a single this very life and if someone has not heard Dhamma in this very life then you would assume that so and so person will be stupid because he has not learned Dhamma. But he did have many lives that you and I cannot see. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > It is ironical that those who understand correctly at the > intellectual level and see the value of it, are less likely to be > fooled by concepts than those who seem to resist this in preference > to `directly experience'. > The latter are in fact being drawn by "concepts" for example > of `self', `meditation', `retreat', `quiet' and so on to fit into > their scheme of things. Even if they are studying the Abhidhamma, > this will have to serve the purpose of which those ideas dictates. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > :-) :-)) :D Sukinder: Please explain. =============================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) is smile. :-)) is more smiles. :D is chuckling. I am not good at English. What is ironic? I do not get the point. That is one reason that I smiled, more smiled, and chuckled. Another reason was that you said 'self' 'meditation' 'retreat' 'quiet'. I just smiled at those 4 words which you seem to be attached negatively. The Buddha did send monks to the forest. See in Metta Sutta. This is against what you said. This is after enlightenment. The Buddha did send those monks to the forest. At each vassa (lent or 3 months of rainy season) monks approached The Buddha and asked for *meditation*. Then their *selves* went down to forest to do a *retreat*, where it was far far away from Palace, cities, towns and villages and *quiet*. A group of monks went there. They were disturbed by unseen beings and retreated back to The Buddha. The Buddha taught them how to do metta bhavanaa and then The Buddha sent them back to the same forest. 'self' 'meditation' 'retreat' 'quiet'. I will not repeat the emoticons otherwise further explanations would be asked for. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > But really, it is better not to have moments of patipatti arise, > than to have miccha patipatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Hold on!! Hang on !!! > > I will write down another word. > > Here 'micchaa patipatti'. > > The Buddha did say not to add any new and not to omit anything. > > 'Aanandaa..., Dhamma and vinaya will be Master when the Master pass > away.' [Mahaparinibbana Sutta] Sukinder: I thought that you might jump at this and you did. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please fuuly explain. To continue: 53362 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8 Gradual Awakening buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (and Nina)- Thank you Joop for asking me for clarification. Nobody is perfect and I never claim to be even near perfect. So I do appreciate your questions. :-) >Joop: In line with my message #53327 to you: Why are you taking "right understanding", "right mindfulness" and "right effort" so absolute, as if somebody "has" them or "has not" them. Tep: I apologize for my failure to answer your message # 53327. The essence of that message is in the following: > > > Joop: Another question to you, not retoric: I perceive "siila, > > samaadhi and > > "panna" only as headers and translate them to the eight aspect > > of the Noble Eightfold Path. Is that correct? > > > > Tep: If we don't know which is which, how can we understand the > dispensation (Buddha-sassana)? > >Joop: I do not understand what you write. You mean that I do not know which is which. What is the first 'which' and what is the second 'which' [end of message 53327] Tep: Sila, samadhi, and panna define the Buddha's dispensation. The noble eightfold path is a part of the overall big picture of sila-samadhi- panna. If we do not have thorough understanding of each of the three components we will not clearly understand what the Buddha taught. That's what I meant by "which is which" above. Rght mindfulness, right effort, and right view(samma-ditthi) "run and revolve" around the first five path factors to make them higher up to the ariya level -- "absolute" as you said, but I don't make them absolute (the dhamma does not belong to anyone). We worldlings discuss the absolute ariya magga just to understand its development clearly so we next strive for samma-ditthi, etc. ........................ >Joop: Why isn't it possible for you to think that somebody has a little understanding etc? A way of thinking of a spiritual process of gradual awakening? Tep: My understanding (panna) now is "little" too. And I concur with you that gradual awakening is the way. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Nina - > > > > I am a little bewildered by what you wrote: > > >N: Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to > > be aware naturally. > > > Dear Tep > > In the hope my silly remarks don't interfere to much in your > discussion with Nina, there is something in your way of reasoning I > don't understand. > (snipped) 53363 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. Sayonara, Htoo ! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - May I take the "Sayonara" back and put it away (for a rainy day) ? We are still friends, no matter how aggravating you may be (once in a while). :-)) Regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo - > > > > I asked you a simple question that deserves a straightforward > answer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, > > I have been repeatedly receiving sayonara since 2003 mid-year. So it > is not new to me. What is more important is that I can be the servant > of anyone whenever they need help in any form. When help is not > needed I can be left alone. I do enjoy soltitude. > (snipped) 53364 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya - Step-by-step to Arahantship jonoabb Dear Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >By the way, Nina and you and Sarah and Jon ... say the same thing that >I believe when each of the three items (sila, samadhi, panna) is >developed in isolation. This is silly. I only say that sila is first of the >dispensation, samadhi is in the middle, and the end result is the >parinna (full understanding) that abandons all kilesa. See AN XI.1 >below . Also read the Visuddhimagga, Chapter I. > >My other posts also discuss this order/sequence of practice that is not >so naive like you and others think. > > My apologies if I have misunderstood or misrepresented your position. Let me assure you that others here also know what it feels like to be misunderstood ;-)) I think that is an inevitable aspect of discussing the dhamma with the world at large, especially through the medium of the internet (rather than face to face), so I would urge you not to get disheartened by such happenings. In my own case, I am sometimes accused of downplaying the importance of sila and samadhi, yet actually I regard both as being extremely important, as kusala whose development was highly recommended by the Buddha. The main point on which we perhaps differ (and I would be interested to hear your comments on this), is that, as I understand the teachings, there is no fixed "order of practice". A person who is weak in sila can still benefit from studying the teachings regarding samadhi and panna, and likewise weakness of samadhi is not an absolute bar to the further development of either sila or panna. It is of course true that sila is always perfected before the others, and the perfection of samadhi always precedes that of panna, but to my understanding this reflects the *step-by-step nature of the stages of enlightenment*, not a *prescribed order of practice* of each of the 3. >>H: Example; If there is no samaadhi, one will never ever perfect siila. >>As soon as samaadhi is off, siila is not perfect. This already mean >>that siila and samaadhi in perfection go hand in hand. >> > >T: You are backtracking. You should have said that without sila as a >supporting condition, there is no samadhi (concentration). > I agree that sila is a supporting condition for kusala samadhi. But at the same time I would not see this as having any particular implications for our 'practice' at the present moment. Let me explain what I mean by that. As I type this message (or as you read it) there is little or no opportunity for restraint from misconduct through body speech or mind, so observance of sila does not come into the picture. But there might be reflection on the advantages of good sila, and that could be an aspect of samatha. Or there could be reflection on the teachings regarding insight development, or even some level of awareness of a presently arising dhamma. The point is that when it comes to sila, samadhi and panna, there is no need to think in terms of 'first this, then that'. There is no absolute 'first' to begin with because, fortunately for us, we come into this life with the benefit of certain levels of sila, samadhi and panna developed in previous lifetimes (just as we also come into this life with certain levels of the kilesas). >Below is one >passage of a sutta for you to read. The Buddha affirmatively said in this >discourse, "skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of >arahantship." This is a solid proof that "order" ("A" comes first, then "B" >later) is important. The same idea is seen in Paticcasamuppada >('Avijja pacaya sankhara', etc.), and yet the Dependent Origination >process is far from being a simple linear sequence. > >AN XI.1: > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near >Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. >Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to >him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed >One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?" > >"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, >and freedom from remorse as their reward." >"And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its >reward?" >"Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." >"And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" >"Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." >"And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" >"Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." >"And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" >"Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." >"And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" >"Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its >reward." ... ... ... [skipped] > >... >"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the >consummation of arahantship." > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-001.html > > I admire your obvious interest in the suttas, which you quote from regularly. I think that is a very sensible way to approach the teachings. In a similar vein to what I said above, I take this sutta to be a description of the order in which things occur, rather than the order in which a person is supposed to 'practice' (note that the Buddha is not telling Ananda that he or anyone should 'do this, then that'). I think we need to distinguish between those suttas that describe the way understanding develops or other things such as dependent origination happen and those (such as the Satipatthana Sutta) that describe the actual development of the path by a person. >T [to H]: How come do you claim to know the "training purpose to attain >arahatta magga naana"? The following is what I know is the "practice >and guideline" for a monk who aspires for arahantship. > >"If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — > remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment- >release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&- >now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who >is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is >endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. >[AN X.71 Akankha Sutta] > >Tep: Dear Friend Htoo, please carefully note the total-release process >that starts with "brings the precepts to perfection". This is a simple >instruction that everyone, young or old, with a high I.Q or a low I.Q., >should understand. > Regarding the reference to bringing the precepts to perfection, as you know, only the sotapanna has perfected sila, so I'm wondering if this could be a reference to attaining stream-entry. (Suttas are notoriously difficult to understand without the assistance of the commentaries, and I've not had a chance to look for any commentary material on this sutta.) I am wondering also if the reference to remaining in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release is a reference to phala samapatti. This may well be a sutta in which the Buddha describes the requisites for the attainment of phala samapatti. Please consider the following as a possible interpretation of the sutta: Text: "If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,'..." J's paraphrase: A monk who wishes to achieve phala samapatti ... Text: "... then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, ..." J: ... must first attain stream entry ... Text: "... who is committed to mental calm, ... J: ... and the stage on non-returner [??]; ... Text: "... who does not neglect jhana, ... J: he must be skilled in jhana Text: " ... who is endowed with insight, ... J: and insight [goes without saying, having regard to what has gone before] Text: ".. and who frequents empty dwellings." J: and must be a forest-dwelling (i.e., not a city-dwelling) monk. >Nobody can deny that sila comes first and high- >level insights come much later before the "ending of mental >fermentations" can be expected. > Yes, I agree that "sila comes first and high-level insights come much later before the "ending of mental fermentations" can be expected". That is to say, the perfection of sila precedes the perfection of samadhi and panna. But as I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily translate into an 'order of practice'. Hoping I've managed to clarify some issues. Jon 53365 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:54am Subject: Thank you, Sukinder buddhistmedi... Hi, Sukinder (Sarah, Nina) - Your reply (#53346) was a surprise. >"Feeling frustrated with the responses and posts in general here on DSG" Yes, somewhat. Angry? No. Bored? Yes. Need a vacation now? No. >"Almost alone in your attempt to try and convince us" Yes, you are quite observant. >"But I would still like to suggest that you should just skip reading any post whose writing style and contents may make you feel quite exhausted." Good advice. >"I may not care if you stayed or left, it is not my feeling at this moment." I know. Even 'my wife' doesn't care. :-) [I know, Sarah, there is no self.] > "So I urge you Tep, please don't consider leaving DSG, just don't feel obliged to respond to or even read all the posts." Okay, I shall consider that middle-way approach. Thanks. Looking forward to reading your reply to my earlier post. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep (* for Nina and Sarah), > > I saw this while copying and pasting your post into Word and I thought > that I should respond to it immediately. > (snipped) > > Tep, again I urge you, please don't leave. > 53366 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (Sukin) - Wise men say "long distance measures a horse's real strength; long time measures true goodness in people". I've been with DSG long enough to know that your true goodness makes you an unusually nice person. Thank you for cheering me up with the recognition. Sarah: I greatly value your contributions - questions, summaries and comments here. ... I consider you a 'core' member of DSG who helps us all to question, check and consider a lot. I hope you'll continue to support us. Tep: I don't deserve that, Sarah. In Thailand they would say that you have gold-plated me so beautifully! But, of course, who can say 'No' to a polite request like that. Forget about the unanswered posts, my lack of enthusiasm lately was not caused by you or anyone, not even Htoo :-)). Frankly, it is discouraging to see the same unresolved issues keep coming back (no matter how much effort has been put into explaining, quoting the appropriate suttas, and so on). Yes, I'll stay on. But the best way for me is to scale down the involvement as Sukinder suggested. Please let me have a copy of the survey you mentioned. Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Tep, > >(snipped) > p.s Tep, may Sukin and we send you a copy of 'Survey' which you may find > useful from time to time for reference? Pls email him or one of us if so. > Larry? Howard? James? Any other 'regulars' or 'core members' who haven't requested a copy, please do if it would be of interest. Forget about Phil and Connie's Dojo:-):-). If we didn't have 'Dojo busters' here, there'd be no dynamic discussion list and we'd all be dark silhouettes - - the keen questioning helps bring those glimmers of light:-). > =============================== > 53367 From: nina Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:43am Subject: Sukin on Pariyatti, no 45138. nilovg Hi Phil, with Sarah's help I found it. I discussed this with Lodewijk and he wanted me to read it twice to him! Twice the same words! From: "Sukinder" 45138 (a few snips) Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:09 am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition sukinderpal -------------------- > Sukin: ... Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, //Sukinder: No my understanding has not changed in this respect. I think Tep, you probably understand `pariyatti' to be the conventional act of reading and listening to Dhamma, and the knowledge acquired, right? Here on DSG, pariyatti is used to refer to a particular level of understanding, though I admit that often out of convenience I do use this word in a way that it overlaps with the conventional meaning. Htoo, I am not clear about your own understanding of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. You say that they are different forms of the same thing, could you explain this more clearly, since at other times the meaning seem to refer to conventional acts? If indeed these are "conditions", one supporting the other, then how can they then be merely concept? Let me explain to you both my own understanding of this. Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. The object of the citta at that moment is `concept', different from when it is patipatti, where the object is a characteristic of a reality appearing through one of the six doorways. Obviously the same concept can be wrongly understood, so in this case, even though accumulated data as knowledge may be the same, there is no panna involved, so this would *not* be called pariyatti. One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in the present moment. Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly. When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of sacca ñana. The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity. To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately. Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti and what it is really about. Otherwise doubt and other unwholesome dhammas will lead us the wrong way, because we think that theory is just that, and involving only thinking and sanna. In other words we "seek to practice" precisely because we don't have the correct intellectual understanding and hence real appreciation for it. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... > Sukin: > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > ------------------------------------------- > 53368 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words dacostacharles Phil, You're crazy :-) Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Tuesday, 06 December, 2005 03:42 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words Hi Connie >>>> I'm grouchy and start thinking about dojo and suggesting adding a rule to the homepage saying don't bother entering (and wasting time) if you haven't read a tremendous sampling of Nina's books on Zolag; Yes, yes! This is good. There could be an entrance exam. The danger is that members who had already gotten in might pass around cheat sheets in "how to get into DSG" type forums. The test would have to be updated every week or so to avoid this but I would be very happy to offer to do that. We could also introduce something that is used at a baseball forum I belong to. Certain words such as "moron" and "imbecile" and "ass" are identified by an automatic censor and posts that contain them are automatically eliminated. If a somewhat more sophisticated censor is available, it could automatically eliminate posts contain pre-determined wrong views. That way the person who posted the wrong view would know right away that they were wrong without someone needing to post an explanation. More time and energy saved for everyone involved through the beauty of developing internet Dhamma technology. Also the photos. The more posts demonstrating right view, the brighter the photo. The photos of people with wrong view could gradually become dimmer and dimmer until they disappear. I was feeling grouchy but now I feel cheerful thinking how much fun it would be to discriminate against people who don't share my views!!! Phil who was "shoolyard bully" in a test linked to by James :) 53369 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words dacostacharles Hi Connie, Do you think it could be useful to fit them into the DO framework, and why do you feel you can't if you believe they can? What do you mean by "dojo"? You and Phil got me wondering if DSG was set up as a study forum for Nina's books; is it? Are Nina's books on Zolag, Ashvagosha, and Nagarjuna incomprehensible because you don't agree with them? You said, "Don't let me scare you! What kind of reality can I even have to you unless you're thinking of whatever ideas you have of 'me'?" and you are right. And, I don't exist as long as you don't believe in my existence, otherwise I do. Just be careful less these imagined posts shatter your belief and you begin to experience a being via these posts. Illusion, all is an illusion; Ok, a big illusion that we live in. There is on reality, only illusion that which we can see, taste, feel, hear, smell, and think about. Boy, with all this illusion, who needs a reality? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of connie Sent: Tuesday, 06 December, 2005 02:48 To: dsg Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words Hi, Charles, "purely to coming unDOne, then" was meant like a toast or "best wishes"... by the path of purification may there be an end to DOing; the reverse/pa.tiloma instead of the ongoing/forward/anuloma DO/pa.ticca samuppaada. Anything can be made to fit into the DO framework, but not by me. I tend to dismiss mahayana flavoured post because: I'm grouchy and start thinking about dojo and suggesting adding a rule to the homepage saying don't bother entering (and wasting time) if you haven't read a tremendous sampling of Nina's books on Zolag; Ashvagosha and Nagarjuna are incomprehensible to me; I used to think I could reconcile what I now see as insurmountable differences among the traditions and have lost interest; etc. Don't let me scare you! What kind of reality can I even have to you unless you're thinking of whatever ideas you have of 'me'? Thanks for caring :) but still, no you, either. peace, connie 53370 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Hi Htoo, You left out the most interesting part. How do you, Htoo, experience vedana? I experience all vedana in my body. Is that a misunderstanding on my part or not? I have read the books. I want to know how you, Htoo, experience vedana. How do you experience vedana? Larry 53371 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:59am Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya - Step-by-step to Arahantship buddhistmedi... Dear Jonathan (Nina and Sarah, Hatoo)- I was pleasantly surprised to see your unusually long post #53364. Thank you very much, Friend, for the time and effort you put into reviewing the messages I wrote earlier and writing up this unsual message. I have a feeling that we are going to rectify several troublesome issues this time ! >Jon: My apologies if I have misunderstood or misrepresented your position. Let me assure you that others here also know what it feels like to be misunderstood ;-)) I think that is an inevitable aspect of discussing the dhamma with the world at large, especially through the medium of the internet (rather than face to face), so I would urge you not to get disheartened by such happenings. Tep: You said it so well. The communication was two-way, and so when misunderstandings happened they were two-way as well. Therefore, I am sorry -- and offer my apologies to all -- for expecting others to understand 'me' (a one-way, selfish street) because they too have the right to believe or not believe anything, anyway they want ! You're right, I was silly to be disheartened. My expectation this time is clearly a "greed" . .................... >Jon: A person who is weak in sila can still benefit from studying the teachings regarding samadhi and panna, and likewise weakness of samadhi is not an absolute bar to the further development of either sila or panna. >It is of course true that sila is always perfected before the others, and the perfection of samadhi always precedes that of panna, but to my understanding this reflects the *step-by-step nature of the stages of enlightenment*, not a *prescribed order of practice* of each of the 3. Tep: Yes, it is true that weak beginning in any of the three should not forbid us from trying to develop the other two. But the question is 'how far can we go?' The problem as stated by the suttas is that we cannot develop samadhi to 'great fruit and great benefit' without a perfect sila, and similarly we cannot develop panna to achieve great fruit and great benefit without fully-developed samadhi. ['Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava)'. D. 16 and A.IV,1] As to the *prescribed order of practice* I agree with you that there is no fixed order cast in stone. ................. >Jon: As I type this message (or as you read it) there is little or no opportunity for restraint from misconduct through body speech or mind, so observance of sila does not come into the picture. But there might be reflection on the advantages of good sila, and that could be an aspect of samatha. Or there could be reflection on the teachings regarding insight development, or even some level of awareness of a presently arising dhamma. The point is that when it comes to sila, samadhi and panna, there is no need to think in terms of 'first this, then that'. >Jon: I take this sutta to be a description of the order in which things occur, rather than the order in which a person is supposed to 'practice' (note that the Buddha is not telling Ananda that he or anyone should 'do this, then that'). Tep: It is good to carefully separate the random-order development of sila-samadhi-panna in worldlings from the order of their fulfillment or culmination at the lokuttara level. Let me tell you my story of wrong practice. A non-ariyan like me used to contemplate as follows: 'The eye is impermanent'... 'Forms are impermanent'... 'Eye-consciousness is impermanent'... 'Eye-contact is impermanent'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is impermanent.' Yet, all these words did not mean anything to me other than some concepts being recalled from memory. Without a strong degree of concentration, I could never "discern them the way they really are". They arose and dissolved much faster than my citta could see and know them clearly in the present. But the Buddha said, "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." And he also said, "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." So I knew that I must develop samadhi to the level that was high enough first, otherwise I wouldl have no chance to attain yathabhuta-nana-dassana. After developing samadhi for a long time, while reading and contemplating right understanding and anicca-dukkha-anatta of nama & rupa (whenever I could, on and off- cushion), even with perfect Five Precepts everyday and Uposatha sila once a month, I still found that my mind was often unable to unify and distractions of all kinds (hindrances) still occurred. I had some samadhi alright but it was not great. So I went back to the suttas and learned that without perfect sila, samadhi might never bring great fruit and great benefit. Then, it dawned on me, after having struggled for a long time, that there was indeed a real order in the practice of the Buddha's Teachings. Only by testing out the hard way, I can see the truth in the suttas. Do you want to be deluded like me and waste your time too? .................. >Jon: I admire your obvious interest in the suttas, which you quote from regularly. I think that is a very sensible way to approach the teachings. Tep: It is very kind of you to admit the importance of suttas. Other members would tell me : " That's what you think, Tep." Or, "Do you want us to throw away the Abhidhamma and commentaries, and believe your sutta interpretations?", etc. .................. >Jon: Regarding the reference to bringing the precepts to perfection, as you know, only the sotapanna has perfected sila, so I'm wondering if this could be a reference to attaining stream-entry. (Suttas are notoriously difficult to understand without the assistance of the commentaries, and I've not had a chance to look for any commentary material on this sutta.) Tep: Absolutely ! I have studied the suttas for many years, yet there are about 10% that I still find "difficult to understand". I used to depend a lot on commentaries (mostly Buddhghosa's), but I no longer read them now. ............................... >Jon: I am wondering also if the reference to remaining in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release is a reference to phala samapatti. This may well be a sutta in which the Buddha describes the requisites for the attainment of phala samapatti. Tep: According to Nyanatiloka, "samápatti is a name for the 8 absorptions of the fine-material and immaterial spheres to which occasionally is added as 9th attainment, attainment of extinction (nirodhasamápatti)". I think the two releases are defined differently : "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." [AN II.30] The first release results from samatha, and the second is the result of vipassana. .......................... >Jon: Please consider the following as a possible interpretation of the sutta { AN X.71 Akankha Sutta: "If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now', } Text: 'then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection' ...J: must first attain stream entry ... Text: "... who is committed to mental calm, ...J: ... and the stage on non- returner [??]; ... Text: "... who does not neglect jhana, ... J: he must be skilled in jhana Text: " ... who is endowed with insight, ...J: and insight [goes without saying, having regard to what has gone before] Text: ".. and who frequents empty dwellings." J: and must be a forest- dwelling (i.e., not a city-dwelling) monk. Tep: Because the aim of the sutta is total release in both ways, therefore both jhanas and vipassana-nana are all needed on top of 'perfect sila'. I believe all your interpretations are correct. ...................................... >>Tep: Nobody can deny that sila comes first and high- >level insights come much later before the "ending of mental >fermentations" can be expected. >> >Jon: Yes, I agree that "sila comes first and high-level insights come much later before the "ending of mental fermentations" can be expected". That is to say, the perfection of sila precedes the perfection of samadhi and panna. But as I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily translate into an 'order of practice'. Tep: You're right and I concur with you. ................................ >Jon: Hoping I've managed to clarify some issues. Tep: You did surprisingly well ! Excellent ! Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Dear Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >By the way, Nina and you and Sarah and Jon ... say the same thing that > >I believe that each of the three items (sila, samadhi, panna) is > >developed in isolation. This is silly. I only say that sila is first of the > >dispensation, samadhi is in the middle, and the end result is the > >parinna (full understanding) that abandons all kilesa. See AN XI.1 > >below . Also read the Visuddhimagga, Chapter I. > > > >My other posts also discuss this order/sequence of practice that is not > >so naive like you and others think. > > > > (snipped) 53372 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: to Sukin and Tep. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Phil and RobK)- "Hearing the same" indicates that the communication/discussion does not produce result, and who in the whole wide world still can continue in that deadlock condition? But I don't blame anyone because they have their rights to believe or not believe anything. >N: I was thinking of your daughter in Japan, are you not going to visit her, via Bgk? You would fit nicely into the foundation discussions, no need to agree. But you are so keen and well read in the suttas, also appreciating Abhidhamma and co. I am really happy about that. As you know many of us are there in Febr. In Japan you could meet Rob K and Phil. Tep: I am honored by your compliment and, especially, invitation to the foundation discussions. I am interested in meeting the good Buddhist members of the foundation, Nina. Could you give me some background information about the foundation and its meeting schedule? I am afraid I already missed the Feb 2006 event, since my daughter already bought the roundtrip tickets (for March 26 to early April) non-stop between Houston to Tokyo. [Can Phil give me your pone number and RobK's number, please? I will call you both while I'm in Tokyo. :-) ] .............. >N: I like your question, Tep, on right understanding. Tep: It would be very nice if I can read your reply to that question - whenever you have time to write. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep and Sukin, > I am endorsing Sukin. I like your question, Tep, on right understanding. I > truly understand that hearing the same may be frustrating for you and > others. (snipped) 53373 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: Dhammapada jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi, Joop, > ... Hallo Connie (and Phil and Charles at the end) One of the statements I like is of somebody who after been to a seminar said about the topic of it: "I'm still confused, but on a higher level." My basic problem was simply that I don't understand the way you use the english language: the existing one and your homemade additions to it. So my question: don't forget that of a part of the DSG- participants english is not their native language. Connie, jumping to another topic: "If the monastic tradition does not fit or work in a given society, where does the fault lie?" Joop: First I thought I will say: "that's not a good question; nobody is to blame when conditions are changing." But after some reflecting I prefer to be honest and will say: The bearers of the traditions (laypeople but especially monks) who refuse to see that the conditions are changing (in Asia) and will not exist (in the West) for continuation of the tradition in which monks and laypeople are living in a kind of mutual symbiotic relation. So the question is not " Does anyone care to sell Vinaya cheap?" as you said, but: What do we want in the future: no Theravada at all or a laymovement, with new forms of renunciated life? When I'm going at the hospital again and they are making a X-ray picture or a EEG or a ECG of me, I will ask a electronic copy of it to send to your DOJO (whatever that word means). The same the soon as I get a picture with my skin on it. It's a pity not everybody did understand the creative but bizar DSG- test Phil and you proposed. Maybe it can made more perfect the joke by a tetralemma, questioning at some texts: - is this a quote of Nina? - is this a quote of Sujin - is this a quote of Nina ànd of Sujin - is this neither a quote of Nina nor of Sujin? Metta Joop 53374 From: nina Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:46am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. Jaran: You explained that the person who has not studied the Dhamma erroneously believes that there is self but that he can also see his anger. Sujin: That is correct. Everybody knows anger. When anger arises everybody knows that this is anger. Isn¹t that correct? 53375 From: nina Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 0:00pm Subject: foundation nilovg Hi Sarah and Tep, Sarah, recently you gave a very good description of the foundation, and its origin. I cannot trace the post for Tep. Please could you post it again? Tep, we better ask Phil here for his phone number and he may know Rob k's if he cares to give it? Nina. 53376 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: foundation buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and Nina)- I am sorry for misreading Nina's message about where you live. Okay, do you know RobK's phone number in Japan? I have a plan to visit my daughter in Tokyo for one week. So maybe I'll surprise him. Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Tep, > Sarah, recently you gave a very good description of the foundation, and its > origin. I cannot trace the post for Tep. Please could you post it again? > Tep, we better ask Phil here for his phone number and he may know Rob k's if > he cares to give it? > Nina. > 53377 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 0:50pm Subject: Re: The purpose of the Vinaya. Sayonara, Htoo ! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo - > > May I take the "Sayonara" back and put it away (for a rainy day) ? > We are still friends, no matter how aggravating you may be (once in a > while). :-)) > > > Regards, > > > Tep ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, How cool it is. Arigatogozaimas. Sakura no hana are blossoming. Sumimasen. As usual everything is fine. Yes, we are always friends. Best wishes, Htoo 53378 From: wayne Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] msg fm metta metta10 -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom Sent: Dec 10, 2005 10:57 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] msg fm metta Hello Wayne, welcome to the group. Would you share with us what you find particularly helpful in Buddhism, or the suttas that interest you? Or any questions? Nina. op 09-12-2005 19:18 schreef wayne op wkochman@...: Hello Nina and All! Thank-you for your kindness, reply, and acceptance for membership to this group. I find all the fine people who have learned Theravada Vipassana helpful. I hope someday, once I have learned the Dhamma and all it does, to be able to help others. My heart is Wheel 19, and Wheel 6! although I find all the Suttas and writings by others on the Dhamma helpful. Presently I am in deep study of the 8 Jhanas with the Brahma-viharas and the breath as objects along with the daily meditations. I am also reading and studying Thanissaro Bhikkhu's, "Wings To Awakening" as well. I have numbness of all four limbs which now limits my walking and manual dexterity. I use to type with touch typing and was clocked at over 100wpm. Now, to reply to all emails, I have to go off-line, type a reply using hunt-and-peck into notepad, copy then go back on-line and paste into a reply to messages. I am allergic to all four of the grains (wheat, oats, barley, and rye). I use a wheel-chair for long distances and with thanks to walking meditations I can now use a walker for short distances with lift, swing, place as objects. I fell and broke my hip and wrist so I now have a steel hip and suffer alot of pain from the surgery along with severe back pain. I find in my life the Dharma is very important. I regret that my day does not allow me enough time to read and study all that I wish. At first I found your messages overwhelming due to the use of so much of the Pali language. However, I have downloaded John Bullitt's Pali Glossary, a Pali Dictionary, and a Pali course. My questions would be which downloadable Pali Dictionary is best to use and which Pali alphabet is the best to use with WinME? I have taken the Precepts for a lay person but have a problem keeping the one dealing with intoxicants and drugs due to the fact I have to depend on alot of presriptions and pain killers? I understand and have experienced Dhukka, Anicca and Anatta for myself. However, Anatta is hard for me on-line because I have to use the terms I, Me and Mine so much! I have excluded practice of Anatta on-line! Am I wrong doing this? Thank-you for all understanding of my situation. Although I may lurk for awhile I will be printing your messages, taking them off-line and translating the Pali, and spending time learning Pali. I am sorry that before when I read the Dharma and writings I did not learn all the Pali terms! Yours in the Triple Gem and the Dharma with Metta, wayne (Metta) 53379 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Hi Htoo, You left out the most interesting part. How do you, Htoo, experience vedana? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding feeling, I observe it when feeling is much more promonent than co-arising phenomena like air movement through nostrils. You may or may not have read my post on Mahaasatipatthaana. There are 9 feelings. I am now not going to lecture you from theory. I am just going to tell you how I experience vedana. 1. unpleasant (disagreeable) feeling 2. pleasant (agreeable) feeling 3. neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant feeling 4. unpleasant feeling in connection with world 5. pleasant feeling in connection with world 6. neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant feeling in connection with world 7. UF not in connection with world 8. PF not in connection with world 9. NPNUF not in connection with world Number 1 is general feeling when not aggreable for experiencers. Number 2 is general feeling when agreeable for experiencers. Number 3 is neither of them but still it is feeling. Number 4 is like what you feel when you have physical uneasiness like pain, ache, itchiness, discomfort etc and mental uneasiness like hatred when you think someone you do not like in the mind. Number 5 and 6 can be undertood if Number 4 is understood. Number 7 is when we are not well calm we start to feel dislike, when we cannot see 3 characteristic we feel dislike on our wisdom or intellect etc. Number 8 is like jhaana-sukha Number 9 is like 4th jhaana-sukha I feel mostly unpleasant physical feeling and this contribute to mental displeasure. Sometimes other feelings. I do not think I have any of jhaana. But Sometimes I was so calm that I myself thought I was in 4th jhaana. That thought might be lobha but there was actual calmness without any pleasure. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: I experience all vedana in my body. Is that a misunderstanding on my part or not? I have read the books. I want to know how you, Htoo, experience vedana. How do you experience vedana? Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Feeling or vedana is not just for physical pain. Sometimes you might notice that there is a subtle feeling. Try this if never done before. Breathe in. [ At the same time count regularly from 1 to 20. You might end your in-breath at 4 or 5 or 9 or 10 depending on how fast you count.] This counting method is not that good. But may work at a time. The most important thing is not to cling to counting. The breathe out. You will have a number say 5 or 6 for in and 5 or 6 for out. Know through out. If this happen for many cycle you will start to feel joy. This is out of world and this is 8 or close to 8. If no pleasure then it may be 9. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53380 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: foundation jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Phil (and Nina)- > >I am sorry for misreading Nina's message about where you live. >Okay, do you know RobK's phone number in Japan? I have a plan to >visit my daughter in Tokyo for one week. So maybe I'll surprise him. > > Any chance of fitting in a side-trip to Bangkok or Hong Kong while you're in this part of the world? It would be nice to discuss dhamma with you face to face ;-)) Jon 53381 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: 2 types of DO & my own words philofillet Hi Charles > You're crazy :-) Only the tip of the iceberg, Charles. > Ph: Yes, yes! This is good. There could be an entrance exam. etc... I thought of an improvement on my idea. There could be a sensitive software that identifies wrong view, but instead of just eliminating the offending post, which wouldn't be nice, of course, could pull a suitable post from the "useful posts" and send it to the wrong viewer in question. Really, this sort of thing is already possible, I believe. It would save time and energy that is needed for studying paramattha dhammas! :) BTW, you mentionned that you will be writing some books. Good luck with that. Phil 53382 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: foundation philofillet Hi Tep > I am sorry for misreading Nina's message about where you live. > Okay, do you know RobK's phone number in Japan? I have a plan to > visit my daughter in Tokyo for one week. So maybe I'll surprise him. I don't have his phone number, but you can get it from him off-list. He lives in Kyushu, which is far from here. But I live in Tokyo. I'd love to meet you if you have time, especially if it's during my upcoming winter vacation. I'm not nearly as grouchy in real life as I am here sometimes. E-mail me off list when you come. Phil 53383 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:41pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada philofillet Hi Joop >>>> I will ask a electronic copy of it to send to your DOJO (whatever that word means). The same the soon as I get a picture with my skin on it. It's a pity not everybody did understand the creative but bizar DSG- test Phil and you proposed. "Dojo" is the place where people practice some tradition of martial arts. In Japanese, "dojo yaburi" is when enthusiasts of one tradition burst into another's dojo to fight with its followers and prove which one is better. I do sometimes think that it is futile for people with different views to debate because it just hardens views, makes it our own understanding rather than just understanding. Sometimes I think that, not all the time. Phil 53384 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: Sukin's long reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti htootintnaing Continue: Sukinder: I thought that you might jump at this and you did. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please see previous post. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When I wrote it I had and still have a vague memory of someone else using this term, perhaps Robert K.? Anyway, in my mind it just means `wrong practice', so what's the big deal? Would anything Sukin say's ever go down in the history of Buddhism, would it even influence any other person? Does Sukin also not admit to being pali illiterate and not particularly interested in it? So don't worry, this ripple won't transform into a wave. What in fact is a big wave to me are the wrong views expressed for example, in the idea of formal mediation and retreats, and yet I do not make it anything much more than a topic of discussion here in this group. ===================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand fully above passage. I here understand like this; 'A big wave to Sukin is the wrong views expressed for example, the idea of formal meditation and retreats'. I have replied about this. The Buddha sent the monks (*selves* of monks) back to the same forest (*quiet place*) to do their rain *retreat* of *meditation*. The last sentence is not that clear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I will try to find this new word that is micchaa patipatti in > Tipitaka. :-)) Amara might know. :-)) Sukinder: You bring in Amara quite often, why is it? ===================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If this is needed to answer, I will answer. If not, I will not answer at all. But I have the answer already for you or for anyone who have past contact with her. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================== > Htoo: > Maybe this time my memory has a seive. It seems leaking out. > > 1. sacca ~naana > 2. kicca ~naana > 3. kata ~naana > The First Discourse of The Buddha will say you. Sukinder: Is this a question, if not what are you saying? ==================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My punctuation already says it is an expression. If you do not know this punctuation and do not understand about my expression I will explain here. Please read Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It will tell you sacca ~naana, kicca ~naana and kata ~naana. It was not a question. I did not used a question mark or any hint indicating it is a question. You just grouped of three. I have not long used sacca, kicca, kata. So I said my memory has a seive and sacca, kicca, and kata have leaked out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Thanks for using Paa.li even though I lost the connections between > your posts. > > 1. sutamaya (not suttamaya, I think) > 2. cintamaya > 3. bhaavanaamaya > > Manomaya = by means of mind > suta maya= by means of 'being heard' (taught) > cintamaya= by means of thinking (logical thinking) > bhaavanaamaya= by means of 'mental activity of developing wisdom' Sukinder: Thanks, I never heard of Manomaya before. =================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now you have heard. Take a note of it for later use. Hatthamaya = by hand Siisamaya = with head Paadamaya = with feet and there are still many. I just explained Paa.li. Manomaya is not included in your classification of sutamaya, cintaamaya, bhavanamaya and it also does not include in my classification. Above further 3 words are for the use of maya. This is not that important. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: OK, I now remember vaguely, reading here on DSG, that Cintamaya panna relates as you say, to the Buddha (or is it Bodhisatta?). So I may have misused the concept. What I had in mind however, and this was when I was reflecting on my experiences in India, was to point out the difference of the level of understanding between, a) When prompted by hearing or reading about Dhamma. and b) When some momentary experience in daily life, would condition some consideration and reflection in Dhamma terms. I had come to the conclusion that the latter was a step forward from the former in the sense that it is at a stage of development, prior to direct experience i.e. satipatthana. It may be that it is better I just call this `wise reflection' or something, but it so happened that at that time, this idea of sutta, cinta and bhavana maya panna came to my mind and I started to make the association. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine. But what I know is sutamaya and not suttamaya. Please verify this word 'suttamaya' or 'sutamaya'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In any case, I still wonder if the same idea might not apply in that it is `thinking' prompted by some experience. What do you think? ================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know whether cintaamaya is confined to Bodhisatta or is also available to all. My original believe is that if something is the product of own reasoning through thinking I would call it cintaamaya. Like Newton's Laws and Newton's thinking. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Do we know seeing now? >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: YES. [ Htoo loudly answers. _just to be caust up in Sukin's > trap_] > I saw your '?' but now I am exactly touching the button that shows > fullstop to end this sentence here please see'.' Sukinder: I am slow to understand riddles, so please explain. ================================ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very simple. If you read 2nd time you will understand. If not do 3rd time. If not 4th time. If not 5th time. If not 6th time. If not 7th time. If not 8th time. If not 9th time. If not 10th time. If after 1000th time you cannot then please let me know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Does the characteristic of hardness appear and known as anatta? I > think the test and proof is in how much > understanding arises in this very moment. Some of us will > acknowledge that ours is only panna of the thinking level. However, > we would be referring to anything that arises in the moment, now. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > :-)) If I have to say the fourth time 'looking at a single...' Sukinder: I still don't get it. =============================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Will clear yourself later. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > This level of Saddha which is convinced about what appears as being > the only object that needs to be understood and not be caught up in > concept of time, place and activity; this too is a necessary part of > correct pariyatti. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This might as well be 'UNNECESSARY dissection of dhammas into very > very fine details that are never seen by anyone. Sukinder: Oh no, it is not. It is simply the question of attitude towards the dhamma that appears "now", that is all. In fact do we even consider enough that whatever is going on now as being a "dhamma"? Perhaps this is the path which leads to the conviction that the idea about another time, place, retreats etc. is misleading? ============================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think so. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I think what happens is that people are not happy with just a > correct intellectual understanding or even see much value in it, > but instead would like to have `more', so the idea of `self' and > `control' becomes the driving force. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Might be, might be partly right. But this is not true. Sukinder: Of course, there can never be just one set of conditions. ==================================== > Sukin: > But of course this is from not having the > correct pariyatti in the first place. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Well, .......llll > > I will be looking forward to 'the second place'. :-)) Sukinder: What do you mean? ================================ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You said 1st place is pariyatti. I am looking forward to hearing 2nd place. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > In other words, there can't be a jump from the little understanding > that dhamma needs to be understood directly to it actually > happening. The development of panna happens in steps and degrees and > involves increased detachment. In fact every kusala dhamma > associated with the development of panna also gets developed in > degrees. Such that one would see that generally there will be more > sila, khanti, viriya and so on, each supporting panna and each > directed towards the present dhamma. Doesn't it sound fantastic to > think that all this is going to be developed in 7 days, or 7 months > or 7 years by meditation? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > Ha ha ha ha. [Excuse me, Hmmm Hmmmm ...] > > This is what The Teachings say. This is in Tipitaka. This is not my > own word. This is in Nikaaya. This is in Suttas. Not my word or any > others' word. Sukinder: Yes, yes, "This is what The Teachings say. This is in Tipitaka. This is in Nikaaya. This is in Suttas". I say it, you say it. So where is the disagreement? In our *interpretations* of what is said! And this is what I am referring to!! =============================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You do not make clear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here I will say for the fifth time that 'looking at a single ...' Sukinder: ………still don't get it…….. =============================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Wait for 6th time, 7th time or 1000th time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > The level of delusion that indeed arises is quite annoying. So much > so that it often leads to some level of being `conceited', often > unexpressed, that one knows the Teachings well enough to not need to > hear more, or that it is secondary. But even an Arahat would never > say no to hearing the Buddha's teachings. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > I strongly dobt the above paragraph. It is about what? > > I always repeat where important. I always go down to the base down > to the bottom. > > Are you referring me that 'I am conceited and I am unexpressed and I > assume myself know the Teachings well enough and 'to not need to > hear more, or that it is secondary'? Sukinder: No of course not. I was thinking particularly about Goenka and his meditation instructors, and also some in this group who lean towards thinking that all the raw material they ever need for the development of understanding, is their own experience, and others who think that only a few Suttas is enough to guide them. But you do approve of Goenka don't you, and besides you even gave the example of the certain monk who asked his student "if whether understanding anicca wasn't enough". So even though you personally show great respect to the Teachings, your approval of these other people, causes me to question you. ==================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did say all are equally good. There do have good qualities. I made a blanket statement on that. I met a person who experienced Goenka retreat. I ask a few questions. I did not know much about Goenka. But according to that person answer I did not think Goenka was wrong. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are many methods of meditation of satipatthaana. > > 1. some do at nose and do breathing alternating forceful breathing > and gentle breathing. > > 2. some teach D.O beforehand and then make sitting > > 3. some teach to put the mind at nose or lip > > 4. some teach to put the mind on the abdomen > and many others. Sukinder: So you believe that all these methods are right. Why then would some of the Mahayana and Zen practices be wrong? Does it depend only on the difference in the "theory" taught? If so, how is it that their theories lead to the same conclusion (about the need to practice meditation) as yours? If indeed their theory is wrong and yet they arrive at the same conclusion, could it not be that it is *not* so much the teachings or Teachings, but something else more influential that led to such an idea? Ask me and I'll say it is "self view". Dhamma or Dharma is only an excuse and shield against any constructive criticism. It is the source of all our explanations and self-justifications, and meanwhile Mara is having a great time. ;-) Take out all these explanations, and we are left with only our attitude towards the present moment. And it is this present moment that Dhamma leads you to if understood correctly and not some idea of "practice". Now I think I am beginning to get some idea of your statement: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Methods I said above are satipatthaana in different approaches. I did not say anything on Mahayana or Zen or any other sects. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life.<< Sukin: Correct me if I am wrong. From the list above, I gather that you believe that it does not matter if there is `no understanding' of realities in the beginning. What I think you believe then is that it slowly and gradually develops as we are reminded again and again about realities (which by the way, most meditation systems DON'T teach). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I will correct you so that you have a better view on me. Every detail does not need to follow. What is important is to follow the Path. I did not say gradually or anything like that. It might arise like a flash or it may arise gradually with own experiences. Whatever way pannaa arises it is equally good for any being. Example 1; One is very blunt. But at a time there arise a flash of wisdom comes out. Example 2; One is very blunt. But with time goes by he gain knowledge through experience. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And so we should not be too concerned about any little akusala, or even `wrong view' in the beginning. Hence your conclusion above about DSGs. Am I right? But doesn't `wrong view' accumulate? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha ha ha. Every thing accumulates. They are not vanishable. Pannaa accumulates. Ditthi accumulates. Why bother ditthi while ditthi is only eradicated by sotapatti magga naana? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Can avijja lead to vijja? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccaya. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: *What are the precise conditions in such a practice that leads to sati and panna?* I think wrong view accumulates and it is precisely this that *blinds* the meditator, giving the illusion instead, of achieving something. Enough for today. ;-) Metta, Sukin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good day. Thanks for opening eyes. With respect, Pancaguna.m aha.m vandaami Htoo Naing 53385 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: foundation buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - What is your plan to be in Bangkok next year : your time schedule and location of the meeting ? I ask this just in case my travel plan can be changed. But I think it will be tough to modify the trip that has been under full control of two women (wife & daughter). :-)) They are ambitious enough to plan for touring Japan and India (or China) in 10 days (March 23 - April 3). Thank you a whole lot for your dhamma friendship. I will be happy to talk with you in person too. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > Any chance of fitting in a side-trip to Bangkok or Hong Kong while > you're in this part of the world? It would be nice to discuss dhamma > with you face to face ;-)) > > Jon > 53386 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: foundation buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - Thank you very much for the friendly reply. Yes, I will write to him off-list and also email you when I arrive in Tokyo. I hope you are not going to be too busy then. Best wishes, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > I am sorry for misreading Nina's message about where you live. > > Okay, do you know RobK's phone number in Japan? I have a plan to > > visit my daughter in Tokyo for one week. So maybe I'll surprise him. > > > I don't have his phone number, but you can get it from him off-list. > He lives in Kyushu, which is far from here. But I live in Tokyo. I'd > love to meet you if you have time, especially if it's during my > upcoming winter vacation. I'm not nearly as grouchy in real life as I > am here sometimes. E-mail me off list when you come. > > Phil > 53387 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Hi Htoo, When someone does something you don't like, you feel unpleasant feeling. Do you feel this feeling in the body, or in the mind, or both, or neither? Here's another exercise: take a piece of food that you find particularly delicious. When you hold it in your hand you are holding the flavor rupa and you know it, somewhat, through the mind door. When the flavor rupa contacts tongue sensitivity tongue consciousness arises. This is taste sensation and it may or may not be an accurate reflection of the flavor rupa. Along with taste sensation comes neutral feeling in all cases, because only neutral feeling arises with tongue consciousness. However, because you find this food delicious a liking consciousness arises. Along with like, pleasant feeling arises. Both of these feelings are subtle and hard to "catch", but neutral feeling is more subtle than pleasant feeling. So let's just consider what we have here: 1) flavor rupa, 2) taste sensation, 3) neutral feeling, 4) liking consciousness, and 5) pleasant feeling. If you can distinguish between all 5 elements, where do the 2 instances of feeling arise: in the body, in the mind, both, or neither? It is no good reading the books. We have to look closely at our experience. If we compare the consciousnesses here, tasting sensation is gross, liking consciousness is subtle, pleasant feeling is more subtle, and neutral feeling is very subtle. I guess we could say the mind door consciousness of flavour rupa is also gross. Larry 53388 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:02pm Subject: Re: foundation rjkjp1 Dear Tep, That would be nice! My number is 0705194-9661 if you are phoning in Japan. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Phil (and Nina)- > > I am sorry for misreading Nina's message about where you live. > Okay, do you know RobK's phone number in Japan? I have a plan to > visit my daughter in Tokyo for one week. So maybe I'll surprise him. > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina > wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah and Tep, > > Sarah, recently you gave a very good description of the foundation, > and its > > origin. I cannot trace the post for Tep. Please could you post it again? > > Tep, we better ask Phil here for his phone number and he may know > Rob k's if > > he cares to give it? > > Nina. > > > 53389 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:18pm Subject: Re: foundation buddhistmedi... Dear RobK - I like your quick reply ! Since now you know my intention, it will no longer be a surprise. Thank you very much for the phone number. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > That would be nice! My number is 0705194-9661 if you are phoning in > Japan. > Robert > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Phil (and Nina)- > > > > I am sorry for misreading Nina's message about where you live. > > Okay, do you know RobK's phone number in Japan? I have a plan to > > visit my daughter in Tokyo for one week. So maybe I'll surprise > him. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ========= > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Sarah and Tep, > > > Sarah, recently you gave a very good description of the > foundation, > > and its > > > origin. I cannot trace the post for Tep. Please could you post > it again? > > > Tep, we better ask Phil here for his phone number and he may > know > > Rob k's if > > > he cares to give it? > > > Nina. > > > > > > 53390 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo buddhatrue Hi Larry (and Tep at the end), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > When someone does something you don't like, you feel unpleasant feeling. > Do you feel this feeling in the body, or in the mind, or both, or > neither? > > Here's another exercise: take a piece of food that you find particularly > delicious. When you hold it in your hand you are holding the flavor rupa > and you know it, somewhat, through the mind door. When the flavor rupa > contacts tongue sensitivity tongue consciousness arises. This is taste > sensation and it may or may not be an accurate reflection of the flavor > rupa. Along with taste sensation comes neutral feeling in all cases, > because only neutral feeling arises with tongue consciousness. However, > because you find this food delicious a liking consciousness arises. > Along with like, pleasant feeling arises. Both of these feelings are > subtle and hard to "catch", but neutral feeling is more subtle than > pleasant feeling. So let's just consider what we have here: 1) flavor > rupa, 2) taste sensation, 3) neutral feeling, 4) liking consciousness, > and 5) pleasant feeling. If you can distinguish between all 5 elements, > where do the 2 instances of feeling arise: in the body, in the mind, > both, or neither? It is no good reading the books. We have to look > closely at our experience. If we compare the consciousnesses here, > tasting sensation is gross, liking consciousness is subtle, pleasant > feeling is more subtle, and neutral feeling is very subtle. I guess we > could say the mind door consciousness of flavour rupa is also gross. > > Larry > This is an excellent question and something to deeply consider- and running to the books to find an answer is not helpful for anyone. Actually, I was thinking about this the other day. I was watching a preview over the internet for the movie "Brokeback Mountain". It made me feel a sense of emotional pain that lasted for quite some hours after watching the preview. I wondered to myself, "Where is this pain coming from? Is it in my brain, in my consciousness, in my body? Where is it?" Then, on closer examination, it seemed like that there was a "me" who was experiencing this pain- which I know isn't correct. How can we pin this down? Run to the Abhidhamma and see what it has to say? That wouldn't reveal anything to us. I think it is important to realize that, for most of us- be the feeling pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral- it seems as if there is a `self' which experiences the feeling. This is a very important matter to consider. Thanks for bringing it up!! Metta, James Ps. Tep, when I wrote to you off-list that you should stick it out with DSG because occasionally there are posts which are worthwhile- I think this post by Larry is a good example of a worthwhile post. Granted, you have to wade through a lot of the boring "Nama/Rupa" posts and the openly hostile posts like the recent ones from Connie and Phil suggesting dojo terrorist tactics, but there are good things to be found here. Glad you decided to stick it out a bit longer. 53391 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:04pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 331- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[a] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] Thína and middha are two akusala cetasikas which always arise together, they form a pair. Thína can be translated as sloth or stolidity and middha as torpor or languor. When there are sloth and torpor one has no energy for kusala. In order to have more understanding of sloth and torpor we should study their characteristics, functions, manifestations and their proximate cause, and we should know which types of citta they can accompany. The Atthasåliní (II, Book I, Part IX, Chapter II, 255) states about sloth and torpor: “Absence of striving, difficulty through inability, is the meaning.” We then read the following definitions of sloth and torpor: * "The compound “sloth-torpor” is sloth plus torpor; of which sloth has absence of, or opposition to striving as characteristic, destruction of energy as function, sinking of associated states as manifestation; torpor has unwieldiness as characteristic, closing the doors of consciousness as function, shrinking in taking the object, or drowsiness as manifestation; and both have unsystematic thought, in not arousing oneself from discontent and laziness (or indulgence), as proximate cause." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 167) gives a similar definition. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53392 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 James: "I think this post by Larry is a good example of a worthwhile post." Hi James, Thanks for the compliment. I hope this thread prompts a deep investigation of experience. Actually, I tried to include a little something for everyone, numbers for Htoo, nama/rupa for Nina, and feeling for the Goenka refugees. I have become more and more interested in feeling lately, and the pivotal role it plays in my life, but, to my surprise, I know surprisingly little about it. For example, if I ask, "what do I like?" the answer inevitably reduces to pleasant feeling. There isn't really a good reason to like anything else. But if I look for the pleasant feeling that is associated with the things I like, all I find is a very weak little experience. It makes me think there is a great deal of attachment to very little. ["Much ado about nothing"/ sorry Joop] Painful emotional feeling is much more forceful. It's easy to find in the body, but I'm not sure what that means because it is nama. However, the body, as we experience it, is also nama insofar as that experience is bodily sensation (body consciousness). There are differences between body sensations such as the touch sensation of hard/soft, hot/cold and, on the other, painful feeling found in the body, but they are both nama. Painful emotional feeling inevitably arises because I don't like something. And not liking anything other than unpleasant feeling is as unnecessary as liking something other than pleasant feeling. The very act of disliking creates exactly the only thing I truly dislike: painful feeling. Why do that? Anyway, these are just a few thoughts that have been rattling around in my brain for the last few weeks. The main thing is to look at experience. Larry 53393 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:21pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Joop > > ..... > I do sometimes think that it is futile for people with different > views to debate because it just hardens views, makes it our own > understanding rather than just understanding. Sometimes I think > that, not all the time. > > Phil > Thanks, you must be a Connie-knower A paradox: there is no need for people with the same views, to debate; only to give or ask information. There are several reasons for Buddhists to debate to each other; one of them is to make your own view more clear to yourself. Metta Joop 53394 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] msg fm metta sarahprocter... Hi Wayne, Thank you for joining us and sharing all the information about your condition. I'm sure that having the internet and access to discussions must help a lot for friends like yourself who are so interested in the Dhamma and are largely house-bound. --- wayne wrote: > My heart is Wheel 19, and Wheel 6! although I find all > the Suttas and writings by others on the Dhamma helpful. ... S: Could you say a little more about these wheels? I'm a bit rushed not to check them. .... > I have numbness of all four limbs which now limits my > walking and manual dexterity. <...> .... S: It sounds as though you've had a very difficult time in recent years and yet perhaps in some ways it may have helped you to really consider and reflect on the Buddha's teachings all the more. In the end, all the things we cling to so much, such as good health and so on, will be lost and only the deep understanding of the Truths will be of any value. .... > > I find in my life the Dharma is very important. <...> > My questions would be which downloadable Pali Dictionary is > best to use and which Pali alphabet is the best to use with > WinME? .... S: For a simple glossary which would include the main Pali terms that we tend to use here, see 'pali glossary' in the files section. I suggest you download this and put it next to your computer for easy reference. The Nyantiloka dictionary is also very useful for more detail on key terms. We all quote it to each other here a lot:-) http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html I suggest you just slowly build up a few oft-repeated terms like nama and rupa:-). (Also, in the files section, try going to 'Useful Posts' and scrolling down to 'Pali' to read some other past messages on this same question.) .... >I have taken the Precepts for a lay person but have a > problem keeping the one dealing with intoxicants and drugs > due to the fact I have to depend on alot of presriptions and > pain killers? .... S: Even the bhikkhus are allowed to take such medications. There is no intention to become intoxicated. However, we know people do become addicted to pain killers, but I'm sure you discuss this with your doctors. (We're rather fortunate in Hong Kong in having easy access to good acupuncture and Chinese medicine. I wonder if there are any such 'alternatives' where you live? .... >I understand and have experienced Dhukka, Anicca > and Anatta for myself. However, Anatta is hard for me on-line > because I have to use the terms I, Me and Mine so much! I > have excluded practice of Anatta on-line! Am I wrong doing > this? .... S: I think it's the understanding rather than the words you use that counts. No need to avoid using such terms! The Buddha didn't. .... Wayne, I do hope you'll chip in, ask questions and share your reading and reflections rather than going into 'lurk' mode. Even if it's just the occasional comment, it does help us all....and of course, the list is for discussion:-). Thanks again for your very frank and sincere introduction. Are you from Chicago or somewhere near? It must be getting pretty cold...brrr. When it drops to 18 degreesC here, we get out our down jackets, hats and gloves and walk around as though we're in the arctic...lol I hope you enjoy your reading and don't get bored (like some others) by all the namas and rupas...more lol:-). Metta, Sarah ====== 53395 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:38am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 206 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 206 and Tiika. Text Vis.: Furthermore, the profitable of the sense sphere is gross; that of the fine-material sphere is subtle; next to which the immaterial, and next the supramundane [should be similarly compared]. _____ N: The Tiika explains that kusala can be a basis of clinging, except lokuttara kusala which is extremely subtle (ekantasukhuma). After kusala citta has fallen away one may cling to one¹s kusala, be it of the sense-sphere or be it jhaanacitta. Lokuttara dhammas, nibbaana and lokuttara cittas are the only dhammas that cannot be objects of clinging. -------- Text Vis.: That of the sense sphere is gross in giving, while it is subtle in virtue; next, that in development. Also, that in development is gross with two root-causes, while with three root-causes it is subtle. ------ N: Mental development can sometimes be performed with two roots, thus, without paññaa, the Tiika explains. This happens when one is well practised (pagu.na), for example in the study of the texts. One may study texts one is familiar with or one has learnt by heart. This is a type of mental development, and sometimes kusala cittas unaccompanied by understanding may arise. Since cittas arise and fall away extremely rapidly, cittas with understanding and without understanding may arise in different processes occurring shortly one after the other. ------ Text Vis.: Also that with three root-causes is gross when prompted, while it is subtle when unprompted. That of the fine-material sphere is gross in the first jhana, [while it is subtle in the second jhana. That also of the second jhana is gross] ... of the fifth jhana is subtle. And that of the immaterial sphere associated with the base consisting of boundless space is gross ... that associated with the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is subtle only. ------ N: Here feelings accompanying jhaanacitta are more subtle as higher stages of jhaana are reached. When the fourth aruupa-jhaana, the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, is reached, feeling is present only as a residual formation. What is said of feeling also pertains to citta, saññaa and the other accompanying cetasikas. --------- Text Vis.: And the supramundane associated with the stream-entry path is gross ... that associated with the Arahant path is subtle only. ------- N: The citta and accompanying cetasikas, feeling included, which are lokuttara, are more subtle as higher stages of enlightenment are subsequently attained. --------- Text Vis.: The same method applies also to resultant and functional feeling in the various planes. --------- N: The Tiika mentions separately the feeling accompanying fruition (phalacitta) of the arahat. This is the most subtle vipaaka since it is superior. The feelings accompanying kusala vipaakacittas can be classified in the same way as those accompanying kusala cittas. As to the feelings accompanying the kiriyacittas of the arahat, the Tiika explains that those which occur in the way of daana are grosser than those in the way of siila. They are classified in a way similar to those accompanying kusala citta. The feeling accompanying the kiriyacitta of the fourth aruupa-jhaanacitta, the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception the feeling is extremely subtle. ------- Text Vis.: and to feeling stated according to pain, etc., according to one with no attainment, etc., and according to that subject to cankers, and so on. --------- N: The Tiika explains that in this classification feelings were classified according to jaati (of akusala, kusala, vipaaka and kiriya). But when it is said Œaccording to pain, etc.¹( dukkhhaadi), there is reference to the classification according to sabhaava, characteristic, as in the foregoing sections. As we have seen, this is a different classification that should not be mixed with the classification according to the jaatis. Conclusion: We are reminded of the many degrees of kusala, which are subtle and gross when compared with each other. Daana is gross compared to siila. However, there are different degrees of daana and siila, and if one takes these into account many more distinctions can be made. Daana and siila can be accompanied by understanding or unaccompanied by it. As we have seen, also bhaavanaa can be accompanied by understanding or unaccompanied by it. Daana, siila and bhaavanaa produce their appropriate results. Also the vipaakacittas with their accompanying cetasikas, including feeling, that are distinguished as subtle and gross are of many degrees in accordance with the kusala kamma that produces them. This demonstrates that the vipaakacittas of rebirth-consciousness and also those arising during life are of great diversity, even if they are of the same type. ****** Nina. 53396 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: Anyway, these are just a few thoughts that have been rattling around in my brain for the last few weeks. The main thing is to look at experience. Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, James and all, Bodily pain is hard to classified. Pain as a touch-object is not a feeling. But that touch-object is associated with unpleasant feeling. As that feeling is so intense it is assumed as vedana and not assume as a touch. It is a touch. It is a photthabbaa arammana. Sensation and feeling in my post of 'An Interview With Htoo' are classified into two different dhamma. Pain as a touch-object is ruupa dhamma. It is perceived through kaaya pasaada or body-sensitivity, which is also ruupa. There is thaddha pathavii that convey the sense of bodily sensation. Naama dhamma is 'sensation'. It is 'sensation to bodily touch-object of pain'. Or it is kaaya-vinnaana citta. That citta is associated with dukkha. Unlike other unpleasant feeling in other cittas, which are accompanied by domanassa this citta kaayavinnaana citta is accompanied by dukkha. This dukkha is seen as pain. The word pain is not accurate to classified into Buddhist Abhidhamma's paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53397 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Larry (and Tep at the end), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Larry > > This is an excellent question and something to deeply consider- and running to the books to find an answer is not helpful for anyone. Actually, I was thinking about this the other day. I was watching a preview over the internet for the movie "Brokeback Mountain". It made me feel a sense of emotional pain that lasted for quite some hours after watching the preview. I wondered to myself, "Where is his pain coming from? Is it in my brain, in my consciousness, in my body? Where is it?" Then, on closer examination, it seemed like that there was a "me" who was experiencing this pain- which I know isn't correct. How can we pin this down? Run to the Abhidhamma and see what it has to say? That wouldn't reveal anything to us. I think it is important to realize that, for most of us- be the feeling pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral- it seems as if there is a `self' which experiences the feeling. This is a very important matter to consider. Thanks for bringing it up!! Metta, James -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Having watched sad movie there left a pain in the brain or chest or abdomen or wherever. That pain is the pain of domanassa or 'mental pain' or 'unpleasant mental feeling' 'feeling bad in mind'. In my post of 'Interview' I said there are 89 sensation. Among them there are 3 sensations that are associated with different pains. Physical pain is associated with one sensation. It is 'the sensation to painful bodily touch-object' or 'body-consciousness' or 'kaaya- vinnaana citta'. Other two sensations are 2 domanassa citta. All 3 cittas or all three sensations are associated with a mental factor called dosa or aversion. All three cittas stand on heart-base or hadaya-vatthu or hadaya ruupa. Dosa or aversion destroy anything it encounters. That is all of its assoicate and even its own home of hadaya vatthu. This destruction causes heat inside of the body where we cannot locate where exactly it is. Examples; ? in the brain, ?in the heart, ?in the chest, ?in the abdomen, ?in the mind etc etc. There was a speech that talked on King Ajaatasattu (this might be a bit of mystery). After killing his own father the king Ajaatasattu became repentent. Finally he became a devotee of The Buddha. He had the potential to be enlightened in that very life. But because of his pitighaataka kamma sotapatti magga and all higher magga are obstructed. But at least he took refuge in the Buddha. More importantly he was very familiar with The Buddha and his love on The Buddha was uncomparable to others. As soon as he heard that The Buddha passed away he stood still and fell to the ground. The king followers had to bring him up and put him into a cold bath because his chest was so hot. And it is said that the bath was in butter and all butter boiled and burnt up so that the followers had to put the king in three successive butter baths. Only after three butter bath he became to accept that The Buddha passed away. This is manifestation of dosa. So hot. So painful. But still it is dosa and it is naama ruupa. It is associated with dosa cittas or akusala-vipaaka-kaaya-vinnaana citta. These cittas produce ruupa born of consciousness. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53398 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 590 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The last stock of dhammas that I have been explaining is general stock of dhammas. In general stock of dhamma or 'sabba sangaha' the last substock is Noble Truths or ariya saccaa. In four Noble Truths the last truth is the truth of path leading to the cessation of the suffering. It is magga saccaa. That magga or Path constitutes eight parts. So far up to five parts have been discussed. They are right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, and right livelihood. The 6th part of this Path (NEP) is right effort. Right effort or sammaa-vaayama also comes in the name of sammappadhaana. Padhaana means 'exeretion' 'energetic effort' 'striving'. Sammaa mean 'thoroughly' 'rightly' 'in the right way' 'best' 'perfectly'. So sammappaddhaana means 'right effort'. It is one of path-factors of NEP. The Buddha said, 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaavaayamo? Idha, Bhikkhave, bhikkhu (1)anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti, vaayamati, viiriya.m aarabhati, citta.m paggah.naati, padahati.. (2)uppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya chanda.m janeti, vaayamati, viiriya.m aarabhati, citta.m paggah.naati, padahati.. (3)anuppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti, vaayamati, viiriya.m aarabhati, citta.m paggah.naati, padahati.. (4)uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m .thitiyaa asammosaaya bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti vaayamati, viiriya.m aarabhati, citta.m paggah.naati, padahati.. Aya.m vuccati, Bhikkhave, sammaa vaayamo.' 'Which, Monks, is right effort? (1)The bhikkhu in this dispensation of mine in order not to arise 'unarisen wicked unskilful demeritorious deeds' a)brings forth the 'desire will intention zeal', b)struggles strives endeavours, c)seizes 'vigour energy effort exertion' d)supports the mind, applies the mind vigourously e)strives exerts confronts fights against (2)The bhikkhu in this dispensation of mine in order to abandon 'arisen wicked unskilful demeritorious deeds' a) b) c) d) e) (3)The bhikkhu in this dispensation of mine in order to arise 'unarisen skilful meritorious deeds' a) b) c) d) e) (4)The bhikkhu in this dispensation of mine in order to i) stabilise (continue) (sustain) ii) prevent vanishing iii)further increase multiply iv) stretch out to full extent (full development) v) accomplish perfection of cultivation / culture a) b) c) d) e) These four strivings [ (1) (2) (3) (4) ] can be called as 'right effort'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53399 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words icarofranca Olá Charles Da Costa! >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Are Nina's books on Zolag, Ashvagosha, and Nagarjuna >incomprehensible > because you don't agree with them? >------------------------------------------------------------------ (In Portuguese) Talvez algumas explicações possam ser adicionadas. Para um leitor atento dos Textos budistas, muitas de suas passagens e situações lembram MUITO alguns equivalentes dos Upanishads, dos Puranas Hindus, etc. Nem mesmo os textos Theravadas escapam desta comparação: O Milinda Panha, ou As Questões do Rei Milinda tem passagens e ensinamentos semelhantes aos encontrados no Kena Upanishad...mas os textos Mahayanas são verdadeiros decalques dos textos upanishadicos - quase cópias literais! (In English) Perhaps some clarifications could be added here. For the attentive reader of Buddhistic texts, many passages and situations on them remind SO MUCH similar ones in the Upanishads, the Hindu Puranas and so on. Not even the best Theravada texts manage to escape such comparisons: The Milinda Panha, for example, has passages and teachings sometimes very similar to the ones found at the Kena Upanishad...but with the Mahayana texts we have got true copies of upanishads - they are almost literal vedic texts! ( In Portuguese) Os livros de Madame Nina Van Gorkon são o resultado de muitos anos de convívio com verdadeiros expoentes da tradição theravada. Sua leitura pode ser complexa às vezes, mas é sempre proveitosa, pois esclarece os mais finos detalhes dos ensinamentos budistas... como leitor, considero-os mais sólidos em verdadeira doutrina budista do que muitos sutras mahayanas! (In English) Madamme Nina van Gorkon´s books are the result of many, many years of proximity with true Theravada tradition´s masters. Their reading can be complex sometimes, but is always Kusala, because its clarifies the most hyperfine details od Buddhistic teachings...as a reader, I consider them more grounded and solid on treu Buddhistic Doctrine than many Mahayana Sutras!!! >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Illusion, all is an illusion; Ok, a big illusion that we live in. There is > on reality, only illusion that which we can see, taste, feel, hear, smell, > and think about. > > Boy, with all this illusion, who needs a reality? >----------------------------------------------------------------- (In Portuguese) Cara, o Samsara não é ilusão...é bem real. O Caminho Óctuplo não é ilusão, tão pouco é o Nibbana. Há um Sutta Theravada em que o Buddha afirma que, se tudo fosse ilusão, não haveria Nibbana, nem Caminho Óctuplo nem sáida do Samsara! (In English) Pal, Samsara is not an illusion...it´s very real! The Octuple Noble Path is not an illusion, neither the Nibbana. There is a Theravada Sutta in which Buddha states clearly that if all could be an illusion, so Nibbana could not exist, or Octuple Noble Path or a Samsara´s exit! Best Regards! With Metta, Ícaro > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of connie > Sent: Tuesday, 06 December, 2005 02:48 > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words > > Hi, Charles, > > "purely to coming unDOne, then" was meant like a toast or "best wishes"... > by the path of purification may there be an end to DOing; the > reverse/pa.tiloma instead of the ongoing/forward/anuloma DO/pa.ticca > samuppaada. Anything can be made to fit into the DO framework, but not by > me. > > I tend to dismiss mahayana flavoured post because: I'm grouchy and start > thinking about dojo and suggesting adding a rule to the homepage saying > don't bother entering (and wasting time) if you haven't read a tremendous > sampling of Nina's books on Zolag; Ashvagosha and Nagarjuna are > incomprehensible to me; I used to think I could reconcile what I now see > as insurmountable differences among the traditions and have lost > interest; etc. > > Don't let me scare you! What kind of reality can I even have to you > unless you're thinking of whatever ideas you have of 'me'? Thanks for > caring :) but still, no you, either. > > peace, > connie >