53600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] three things nilovg Hi Matheesha, in my PTS the title is: unable to grow, abhabbo. It has: by not abandoning three states one is unable to grow so as to abandon lust, malice and delusion... At the end it shows the opposite: by abandoning three states one can grow so as to abandon rebirth, decay and death. This sutta is beautiful, it shows the manifold conditions necessary to grow. In the note a pali term: dislike to hear the noble Teaching and the reproaching mind. - upaarambha cittataa: it means a mind who is censuring. Nina. op 15-12-2005 23:02 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > I came across this fascinating sutta I thought I should share with > everyone. However the translation is suspect. > 6. Tayodhammasuttaü- Three things. > > 76. Bhikkhus, if these three things were not evident, the Thus Gone > One rightfully enlightened would not have been born in the world. > The discipline declared by the Thus Gone One would not have taken > root. What three? 53601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q> Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 207 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, op 16-12-2005 02:23 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "The plane of the Paranimmitavasavatti Deities, the heaven of > devas who rule over others¹ creations, is the highest heavenly plane."> L: I'm always interested in anything to do with nimitta, so this word in > particular caught my attention: "Paranimmitavasavatti". Could you give a > translation? Also, this is the first I have heard of deities _ruling_ > over something. Could you explain? ------- N: para: other. nimmitta: has nothing to do with nimitta. It means: measured out, planned, created. It comes from : nimminati, to measure. vasa: power. vasavatti: who has power. See Survey, p. 168, Rob K' web for details: The heavenly plane of the four deva rulers is the lowest class of heaven and this is not as far away from the human world as the higher heavenly planes. There are higher deva planes and these have different degrees of excellence corresponding with the levels of these planes. The second heavenly plane is the Heaven of the Thirtythree, Tåvatimsa, and this plane is higher than the plane of the four deva rulers. Inda is the chief of this plane. .. The third heavenly plane is the Yåma heaven, which is higher than the heaven of the Thirtythree. The fourth heavenly plane is Tusita, which is higher than Yama. The fifth heavenly plane is the ³heaven of the devas who delight in creating², Nimmånarati, which is higher than Tusita. The sixth heavenly plane is the ³heaven of devas who rule over others¹ creations², Paranimittavasavatti, which is higher than Nimmånarati. This plane is the highest of the sense sphere planes.> Kusala kamma of different degrees produce vipaaka accordingly, but not many details about these planes are given. Here is a warning: Nina. 53602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. nilovg Dear Joop, Just now you are looking at the computer screen. There is defining, perceiving of a thing you see. But there is also seeing, an element that experiences only what is visible, or colour. Does it not seem to you that seeing and colour appear together? Not one at a time? I think this is a good approach for our discussion on vipassana ñaa.na. The texts do not say: this is very difficult, they merely gave the order of the stages. Your remarks are interesting and challenging. Nina. op 16-12-2005 15:31 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: : it surprises > me that you say really understanding nama-rupa is so difficult (for > you). > I have been thinking again and again: 'what is my fault that this > understanding is not difficult at all for me'. In my conclusion: it's > really not difficult: not on a intellectual level and not on the > level of direct experiencing nana, rupa, and the difference between > them. > Is is possible that you only think that namarupapariccheda-nana is > very difficult because other people and texts say it's very difficult? 53603 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/16/05 12:22:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Howard: "An interesting point! When we know, do we know that we know?. > I'm starting to believe so! If not, then the next moment we know that we > *knew*. Well, then, when is it that we know *that*??!!! I'm thinking > that the idea of knowing being also aware of itself, nondually (i.e., > not as an object, but participatively) as not being so absurd!" > > Hi Howard, > > I only meant that we can't experience the cetasikas that arise with a > consciousness all at the same time. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I see. I suspect that is so *if* you are speaking of experiencing it as objective content of mind (or, as Abhidhammikas say, "as object"). However, when we experience a pleasant sensation, a rupa, as object, is not the pleasantness experienced (not as object but "participatively") at the very same time? Afterwards, we will know that that sensation was felt as pleasant, but that is a memory. -------------------------------------- In particular I'm thinking about a> > root consciousness and the feeling that arises with it . ------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, me too! ------------------------------------ > > But I agree knowing, especially pa~n~naa, is mysterious. However, I > think ignorance or greed or hate are just reactions. When we ignore > something there is a consciousness and then a turning away, with that > first consciousness acting as object condition. When we like something > there is a perception then a liking. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. Liking and disliking are reactive and come after the fact. ------------------------------------------ The liking is generic. All liking> > is the same. The object doesn't inform the liking. I think a mind door > series of processes is sort of like a domino effect, a series of > (usually habitual) reactions. The only way a consciousness is about > something else is in being conditioned by something else. We could say > conditionality is "knowing" in a conventional sense. I believe some > Mahayanists say something like, "consciousness itself is luminosity and > emptiness". > > Larry > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53604 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo (and Larry) - In a message dated 12/16/05 8:34:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: > An interesting point! When we know, do we know that we > know?. I'm starting to believe so! If not, then the next moment we > know that we *knew*. Well, then, when is it that we know *that*??!!! > I'm thinking that the idea of knowing being also aware of itself, > nondually (i.e., not as an object, but participately) as not being > so absurd! > > With metta, > Howard > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard, > > It is like 'Citta A &Citta B business' that we have discussed > before. Logically is it possible that > > 'When we know something we also know the knowing mind who knows that > something?' ---------------------------------------- Howard: I think it may be possible, but not in the same manner - not as object. It may be that we know the knowing as *object* as a memory object after the fact, but we know the knowing participatively, nondually, as it occurs. I think that may be the case. It seems so to me. --------------------------------------- > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53605 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] three things matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: > in my PTS the title is: unable to grow, abhabbo. > It has: by not abandoning three states one is unable to grow M: for people who feel stuck on the path...useful advice. N: > In the note a pali term: dislike to hear the noble Teaching and the > reproaching mind. - upaarambha cittataa: it means a mind who is censuring. M: Hmm..interesting, so this is about being able to take criticism? What kind of atitude does that require...? Faith, humbleness, shame and remorse.. Or is this about having a mind which is overly critical of itself? Nina, does it say anything about 'immobility of mind' or derangement of mind'? Is the former related to thina midda or something else? I'm not familiar with these terms in a dhamma setting. Again any input is appreciated. Thanks for that, regards Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > in my PTS the title is: unable to grow, abhabbo. > It has: by not abandoning three states one is unable to grow so as to > abandon lust, malice and delusion... > At the end it shows the opposite: by abandoning three states one can grow so > as to abandon rebirth, decay and death. > This sutta is beautiful, it shows the manifold conditions necessary to grow. > In the note a pali term: dislike to hear the noble Teaching and the > reproaching mind. - upaarambha cittataa: it means a mind who is censuring. > Nina. > op 15-12-2005 23:02 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@h...: > > > I came across this fascinating sutta I thought I should share with > > everyone. However the translation is suspect. > > 6. Tayodhammasuttaü- Three things. > > > > 76. Bhikkhus, if these three things were not evident, the Thus Gone > > One rightfully enlightened would not have been born in the world. > > The discipline declared by the Thus Gone One would not have taken > > root. What three? > 53606 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. You've Got Yatha-bhuta-nana ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (and Nina) - Nina's questions are well known by Khun Sujin's students. I wonder if you understand the meaning behind the questions. (Why did Nina ask?) >N: > Just now you are looking at the computer screen. There is defining, > perceiving of a thing you see. But there is also seeing, an element >that experiences only what is visible, or colour. >Does it not seem to you that seeing and colour appear together? >Not one at a time? What struck me as honest self-evaluation (which may be wrong) is your following remark : > > Joop: > > I have been thinking again and again: > >'what is my fault that this > > understanding is not difficult at all for me'. > > In my conclusion: it's really not difficult: > > not on a intellectual level and not on the > > level of direct experiencing nana, rupa, and the difference between them. Tep: Is your insight knowledge the same as 'seeing & knowing nama & rupa the way they really are' (yathabhuta-nana)? Does your direct experiencing of nama & rupa reveal to you clearly their origination and dissolution in the present moment? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joop, > I think this is a good approach for our discussion on vipassana ñaa.na. > The texts do not say: this is very difficult, they merely gave the order of the stages. > Your remarks are interesting and challenging. > Nina. (snipped) 53607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] nilovg Dear Htoo, Sloth and torpor are akusala cetasikas, they can never accompany kusala citta. Also when kusala cittas without wisdom arise, there is yoniso manaasikaara, right or proper attention. No opportunity for sloth and torpor. Your q. why moha-muulacittas are not classified as asankhaarika and sasankhaarika: I quote from my study of tiika Vis.Ch XIV, 93, giving you the Pali as well: 1. Why do thina and middha not arise in case of > > '~naanavippayutta sasankhaarika mahaakusala citta'? > > 1. Why do sloth and torpor not arise with wisdom-free prompted > wholesome consciousness? > > You already discussed and answer that because of wise attention > sloth and torpor do not arise in kusala cittas. Now if it is without > wisdom why do they not arise? 53608 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:41am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop.addition nilovg Dear Joop, About the difficulty of the development of paññaa, I should add that the Buddha said that the Dhamma is profound and difficult to understand. Nina. 53610 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 6 htootintnaing Dear Nina, Thanks for this post. So A Sujin said there are three levels of understanding. May I summarize them? 1. theoretical understanding 2. direct understanding 3. pierced understanding With respect, Htoo Naing ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Dear friends, > > awareness of what appears through the eyes at this moment, realities cannot > appear as just dhamma. We should begin to be aware of realities so that it > will become evident that everything is dhamma. Understanding can gradually > grow, and everybody will know for himself to what extent it has been > developed. We should be very sincere with regard to what we understand or > not yet understand. This is the true benefit of studying the Dhamma. People > who study but who have no awareness at all during their whole life are like > the ladle who serves the curry but does not know the taste. The next life > they have to listen again, they have to memorize what they heard, but if > they thoroughly study the realities that appear they will begin to > understand their characteristics. This is the true benefit of the study, > namely the study of the level of pariyatti and of the level of patipatti, > and this will lead to the level of pativedha, the direct realization of the > truth. > > Pramesavan: You stress studying for the right purpose, namely, right > understanding of realities as they are at this very moment. It is very > beneficial to read your book ³A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas² as an > introduction to the study. I understand that the study of the dhammas really > has to be developed for a long time, it is cira kåla bhåvanå. We do not > expect to cause the arising of satipatthåna at a particular time or even in > this life. > > Sujin: The study of the characteristics of realities has to be developed for > a long time. People should study so that they have first theoretical > understanding of realities and this will lead to direct understanding of the > characteristics of realities. > > Pramesavan: Some people say that one should not study at all, that one > should only investigate realities. > > Sujin: This is not right. We do not have paññå to the same extent as the > Sammåsambuddha who realized the truth through his enlightenment all by > himself, without having heard the Dhamma from someone else in his last life. > He considered and was aware of the characteristics of realities and in the > last watch of the night he attained enlightenment and thereby became the > Sammåsambuddha. > > ******* > Nina. > 53611 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Sloth and torpor are akusala cetasikas, they can never accompany kusala > citta. Also when kusala cittas without wisdom arise, there is yoniso > manaasikaara, right or proper attention. No opportunity for sloth and > torpor. > > Your q. why moha-muulacittas are not classified as asankhaarika and > sasankhaarika: I quote from my study of tiika Vis.Ch XIV, 93, giving you the > Pali as well: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your answer. I really appreciate it. First I thought that yoniso-manasikaara (wise-attention) has to have pannaa. But now I am a bit clear on the matter. It is attention that works for thina and middha they are not good mental factors because of stiffness and shrinkness. Thanks for Tiikaa and inclusion of Paa.li. With respect, Htoo Naing 53612 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:57pm Subject: Re: An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing Howard: I think it may be possible, but not in the same manner - not as object. It may be that we know the knowing as *object* as a memory object after the fact, but we know the knowing participatively, nondually, as it occurs. I think that may be the case. It seems so to me. =================== With metta, Howard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, thank you very much for your answer. I asked for your logic as you are mathematic professor. I also feel like you said. But once when I lay out the consciousness-in-procession (viithi) for mind-door that is manodvara-viithi they will be like the following. B.B.B.M.J.J.J.J.J.J.J.T.T.B.B.B Where B stand for life-continuum (bhavanga citta) M stands for mind-door-adverting consciousness (mano-dvara-avajjana) J stands for javana citta or mental impulsive consciousness T stands for tadaarammana citta or retention consciousness. Here according to 'conditions' all J have to take the same object as M. The question arises here. Can M arise and knows itself as its own object when it arises? I look forward to hearing from you. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 53613 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:12pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 593 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads have been running on the course of different stocks of dhamma. Among different stocks the last stock I have been discussing is the stock of Noble Truth. Again in that substock the truth of Path is under discussion. In that Path the 7th path-factor or magga`nga is right-mindfulness or sammaa-sati. To some extent sammaa-sati has been explained. For sammaa-sati to arise the object must always be naama or ruupa. Otherwise it will not be sammaa-sati. What are 'foundation of mindfulness'? Or what are 4 satipa.t.thaana? They are four and they are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Please note that these are my own interpretations, which others may or may not agree. Here I put 'the' in all four cases. Because they are not general things but they are quite confined to the domain of those who contemplate on these four. Satipa.t.thaana = sati + pa + .t.thaana Sati means 'unforgetfullness to do merit' 'remembrance to do merit' 'remembrance to perform wholesome dhamma'. Not just simple mindfulness is sati. Take the example of thief who is very mindful not to be caught by the owner or the police. Is it wholesome deed? No. .T.thaana means 'place' 'site' 'station' 'ground' 'base' 'location' etc etc. Pa means 'along' 'with' 'along with' 'thorough' 'through' etc. Foundation of mindfulness is a bit close to what Noble Ones practise. If the object is not of body, feeling, mind, dhamma then even if there is sati that sati is not right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. Here 'body' 'feeling' 'mind' 'dhamma' need to be explained further. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53614 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:45pm Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 Influences of Sutta Reflection buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (and James) - I like the conversation you had with James in dsg #53532. The main issues that we discussed (and disagreed) in the past centered around the followings. >Sarah: The 6 pairs of ayatanas actually include all dhammas or all namas and rupas. Only when there is the coming together of various ayatanas can there be any experience at all. All those 'countless categorizations' merely 'finetune' or add 'the small print' to the details given in the Sutta Pitaka for those of us with more than a little dust in our eyes to see. ....usually seeing, visible object and eye-base are taken for for things such as computers, fingers and my vision. There usually is no awareness at the present moment of just the characterisitic which sees or that which is seen. >S: I agree with you (T: you = James) that there has to be direct EXPERIENCE or knowledge of nama and rupa first hand 'to begin the process of detachment from them'. >S: I still have some discussion pending with B.Bodhi on the latter -I find some suttas and points more and more subtle. Lots and lots for me to keep reflecting on. Tep: I think the influence of your reflecting on "some suttas" has helped us to have less disagreements now. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (& Phil), > > I'd like to respond to your reply to Phil...(btw, thx for f/w any > correspondence from Phil -- hope for your sake he types them rather than sends them in his hand-writing to you:-)). > ... > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > James: <...> The whole point of the Buddha's > > teaching is to become detached from nama/rupa- from everything. > > Simply "knowing" nama/rupa is a rudimentary first step. > .... (snipped) 53615 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/16/05 4:58:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: > > Howard: > I think it may be possible, but not in the same manner - not > as object. It may be that we know the knowing as *object* as a memory > object after the fact, but we know the knowing participatively, > nondually, as it occurs. I think that may be the case. It seems so to > me. > > > =================== > With metta, > Howard > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Howard, thank you very much for your answer. I asked for your > logic as you are mathematic professor. I also feel like you said. > > But once when I lay out the consciousness-in-procession (viithi) for > mind-door that is manodvara-viithi they will be like the following. > > B.B.B.M.J.J.J.J.J.J.J.T.T.B.B.B > > Where B stand for life-continuum (bhavanga citta) > > M stands for mind-door-adverting consciousness (mano-dvara-avajjana) > > J stands for javana citta or mental impulsive consciousness > > T stands for tadaarammana citta or retention consciousness. > > Here according to 'conditions' all J have to take the same object as M. > > > The question arises here. > > Can M arise and knows itself as its own object when it arises? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the foregoing theory, very appealing to me, BTW, has only a commentarial source, I believe, and doesn't actually occur in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Now, as I understand Abhidhammic theory, and I have hardly any un derstanding of it at all ;-), all cittas and associated cetasikas know whatever they know only as a subject knows an object. But that is exactly what I am questioning. It seems to me, first of all, that the subject-object mode of knowing, to the extent that it makes separated things of these, is actually an ignorance-bound mode, though, of course, it is theprimary mode of knowing for all worldlings, and possibly all ariyans except for arahants. But it also seems to me, that even for worldlings, there are modes of knowing are not of the subject-object sort. The feeling component of mindstate seems to me to be a different sort of knowing from the vi~n~nana-grasping-arammana mode, a nondual or "participative" mode that doesn't have the flavor of a subject grasping an object. Not only that, but it also seems to me that we directly know that we know, at that very time - but this simultaneous knowing that we know is not the knowing of an object by a subject; it is a nondual mode of knowing. This, however, is not part of the Abhidhammic theory. As for logic and mathematics, I don't really see these as an issue here. What I see involved is simply the question of what it is that we actually do and actually can experience. It is a question of what the reality actually is. And that is not something to be deduced, but to be known, ultimately by wisdom. We cannot deduce, for example, the red should look as it does, or that hardness should be as it is, or that whatever arises also ceases. These are simply the way things are, and they are there for us to come to see, to discover. What the actual facts are I really do not know. All I have are tentative beliefs, and they are far from firm. But I have enormous confidence in what I have seen of the Buddha's teachings in the Sutta Pitaka, a confidence gained from studying those teachings and from following them. Finally it seems to me that what the exact facts are with regard to modes of knowing is less important, than the realization of the tilakkhana, the realization of the four noble truths, and the realization of conditionality and non-self. The direct apprehension of these will usher in awakening and freedom. Then we will know what is what. Theories are just that - theories. They, like opinions, are not worth a great deal. What is worth a lot is following the Buddha's liberation teachings, following them to the very end by engaging his entire program of practice, leaving nothing out, and, most particularly, constantly looking at what arises and ceases right here and now, seeing it as clearly as possible, with a powerful attention that, at the very same time, allows for a radical letting go. ------------------------------------------------ > > I look forward to hearing from you. > > With deepest respect, > > Htoo Naing > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53616 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections for Tep3. Reply buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Attn. James, Howard, Matheesha, Nina)- Let me continue from the second reply in this post. The first and second "Reflections" were not an "overload" because your writing went right to the main points. 11. Sarah: Vism 1,52: "Seeing fear in the slightest fault: one who has the habit (siila) of seeing fear in faults of the minutest measure, of such kinds as unintentional contravening of a minor training rule of the Patimokkha, as an unprofitable thought. He trains himself by undertaking (samaadaaya) the precepts of training: whatever there is among the precepts of training to be trained in, in all that he trains by taking it up rightly (sammaa aadaaya). ..." >S: I've previously written a `Musing' on sila as samadaya (undertaking)* and discussed how there can only be `the way of practice that perfects that virtue' through the development of satipatthana. The section this passage refers to as beginning with `possessed of (proper) conduct and resort' is the section before this passage. At the end, it refers to the three kinds or aspects of `proper resort'. These are (proper) resort as support, as guarding and as anchoring. (Vism 1.51) : "What is (proper) resort as anchoring? It is the four foundations of mindfulness on which the mind is anchored; for this is said by the Blessed One: `Bhikkhus, what is a bhikkhu's resort, his own native place? It is these four foundations of mindfulness' (S.v, 148). This is called (proper) resort as anchoring." ..... Tep: I see that you are providing an evidence that satipatthana is a support ('proper resort') for sila : "as guarding and as anchoring". But this notion is clearly in conflict with the Kundaliya Sutta, SN 46.6. [ "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct." ... "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." ] With due respect, I believe your interpretation was incorrect. Why? The Buddha called the four foundations of mindfulness as 'a bhikkhu's resort', the mind anchor, in (S.v, 148); he did not talk about the three kinds of good conduct (or sila) in that sutta. Period. It was your own interpretation that was influenced by Ven. Buddhaghosa's use of the terms "(proper) resort as support, as guarding and as anchoring" to describe the Patimokkha restraint. But I don't think he implied mindfulness. I see this as an example of how the commentaries may mislead a person, if he/she does not carefully separate them from the original Buddha's words (or mix them up). .................... 12. S: In # 53299 you ask whether I'm `suggesting that we should neglect developing sila because it will be taken care of when we become Sotapanna'. On the contrary, I'm suggesting that wholesome states of all kinds will only be developed with wisdom (of different levels). If there is no clear understanding of different mental states, for example, we won't even know what should be developed. Tep: We might be talking about two different levels of "understanding". Like I wrote in other posts (to Jon and Nina)that a person without understanding is a body with no head, and that there are several levels of understandings even in worldlings. But your previous posts were emphasizing right understanding so much that it sounded as if all other dhammas would arise from right understanding (the bright castle in the air). But right understanding is samma-ditthi (according to the Vism) and samma-ditthi is a conditioned dhamma -- it has requisites and supporting conditions. ................. >S: Satipatthana is the way that wholesome states and all kinds of sila can be developed along with detachment and less clinging to oneself who may be pure in future or now. Tep: Again, you oversate the importance of satipatthana just like you have overstated the importance of right understanding or understanding. The above statement contradicts three suttas that I can recall right now; there may be more. They are SN 46.6 (Kundaliya Sutta), SN 48.50 (Aapana sutta), and SN 58.56 (Patitthita Sutta). I already quoted Kundriya Sutta above. A passage from SN 48.50 (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi) and another passage from SN 58.56 are now given : "It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith and whose energy is aroused will be mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. That mindfulness of his, venerable sir, is his faculty of mindfulness." [SN 48.50 Aapana sutta] "There is the case where a monk guards his mind in the midst of mental effluents and their concomitants. When his mind is guarded in the midst of mental effluents and their concomitants, the faculty of conviction goes to the culmination of its development. The faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment goes to the culmination of its development. This is how when one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties are developed and developed well." [SN XLVIII.56: Patitthita Sutta — Established] Tep's Note: The faculty of mindfulness in a noble disciple is identical to samma-sati or the four foundations of mindfulness. ...................... >S: You say `concentration takes more time to develop', but there is concentration at every moment. Most concentration we `develop' is the unwholesome kind. When there is a moment of satipatthana, the direct awareness of a reality now, there is right concentration already, no matter how `unconcentrated' we may seem by outward appearances. As you say, when such understanding and concentration become developed there is yathabhuta-nana-dassana. But this is only developed by very clearly understanding present dhammas. Tep: Again, we are talking about different kinds of "concentration". Mine is the kind that conditions 'knowledge & vision of things the way they really are' to arise. ('Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward.' See AN XI.1) ............... >S: We need to always read the teachings as a `whole', not a short sutta in isolation. Tep: Please show me how to study the at least 10,000 suttas,the Vinaya-pitaka, and the Abhidhamma-pitaka and then relate them together. If you can, then I will become your student to learn how you can do it. :-) ............... (skipping the rest of your post, ) >S: Thank you again,Tep, for helping me to reflect on many suttas and other texts. Tep: Now I am not so sure if you really appreciate my study that is based on many "short suttas in isolation", not the whole thing. :-)) Sincerely, Tep P.S. I skipped the last part of your message because I thought the discussion had reached the point of marginal return. ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (& all), > (snipped) > > With regard to the Gihi Sutta you refer to in the same post, you ask why the Buddha didn't stress `understanding of dhammas' in order for adhi-sila to be perfected. I think the sutta makes it clear that adhi sila is perfected with the attainment of sotapatti magga and we know from all our other readings that this stage of enlightenment can only be realized when all stages of insight (wisdom or understanding) have been developed and attained. > > We need to always read the teachings as a `whole', not a short sutta in isolation. Please repeat it if you think I've misunderstood your comments. > This is a bit rushed. > > Finally in your post you question whether the Vinaya Pitaka can be skipped and/or whether a monk `can start with the Abhidhamma Pitaka'. They're all good questions. I wouldn't like to set any rule. One person or monk might read very little but hear enough to condition right understanding of dhammas and to appreciate the teachings in all Pitakas from these few words. We all know that the opposite is true. One can slavishly study any Pitakas and come away with nothing but `misconduct', `craving' and `wrong views' as the quote I gave from the Atth suggested. > > As soon as we think in terms of `order' and `particular books to be read first' etc, we're thinking of situations about dhammas rather than directly understanding dhammas now. > ***** > 13. Thankyou and Leo for bringing the Sattha.t.thaanaa Sutta, SN 22:57, to > my attention. I wondered about the use of 'bases' in the title. (BB > translates the title as `The Seven Cases' but I don't know what is best.) > > His translation it starts off as follows: > ..... > "At Savatthi. `Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is silled in seven cases and a > triple investigator is called, in this Dhamma and Discipline, a consummate > one, who has fully lived the holy life, the highest kind of person." > > "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu silled in seven cases? Here bhikkhus, a > bhikkhu understands form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading > to its cessation; he understands the gratification, the danger, and the > escape in the case of form" (S: and for the other khandhas). > ..... > Interesting footnote: > > "Spk: this sutta is a statement of both congratulations (ussadanandiya) > and enticement (palobhaniiya). For just as a king who has won a battle > rewards and honours his victorious warriors in order to inspire the other soldiers to become heroes, so the Blessed One extols and praises the arahants in order to inspire the others to attain the fruit of arahantship." > ..... > S: For the meaning of triple investigator (tividhuupaparikkhii), BB refers us to suttas where `skill in the elements (dhatus), sense bases (ayatanas, and dependent origination is explained in detail'. > > Thank you again,Tep, for helping me to reflect on many suttas and other texts. (How nice it would be if you can also help me raise some of them with K.Sujin for further discussion in Feb or perhaps the end of March!) > > Metta, > > Sarah > *http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44853 > ======= > 53617 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Sukin: "It is not so much the perception that experiences are happening "to" `self´, but rather the experiences themselves are taken to *be* `self´." Hi Sukin, Thanks for your reply. I didn't have any problems with anything you said but I'm curious about the above quote. Which experiences exactly do you take to be self? Larry 53618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Jon. jonoabb Hi Howard, James, Tep and Nina upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Tep (and Jon, Nina, and James) - > >In a message dated 12/15/05 4:49:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, >tepsastri@... writes: > > > >>Hi, Jon, Nina, James and Howard - >> >>May I join Nina to rejoice in Jon's kusala? This kind of kusala is >>hard to do and not popular, becuase it is done with no desire for a >>reward or praises from others. >> >>Thanks to Nina for the complete description of all aspects of Jon's >>kusala. Nina, if you did not clearly describe his good deeds like >>that, it might very well remain unrecognized. So it is your kusala >>too. :-) >> >> >>Respectfully, >> >> >>Tep >> >> >======================== > D'accord!! Sadhu x 3! :-) > Hey guys, enough already! The Jon I am seeing descried in your posts is barely recognisable to me ;-)). I'm not going to be able to live up to my new reputation; I think I feel more comfortable being under attack ;-)). Seriously though, many thanks for the compliments, and especially to you, James, for initiating the thread. I suppose if you all see some change, then there's no point in me trying to say otherwise. As for why this might be so, I don't think I'll attempt an explanation, but let me just say that I'm glad for all your sakes of any improvement in the tone of my posts. May it continue further! Thanks to you all for your valuable contributions to the list. Jon 53619 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Howard: "However, when we experience a pleasant sensation, a rupa, as object, is not the pleasantness experienced (not as object but "participatively") at the very same time?" Hi Howard, I don't understand. A rupa isn't a sensation or pleasant. But maybe experience (aka consciousness) is multifaceted and we do experience several cetasikas at the same time. My understanding is that 5-door consciousness is like a mirror image, except we *are* the mirror image. Rupa doesn't see itself in the mirror and the mirror (eye base, etc.) is also a rupa. Larry 53620 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: three things- shame & remorse? matheesha333 Hi Tep, Thank you for finding that sutta for me. Tep: Unfortunately, these two suttas do not tell us how the strong > sense of shame and remorse (hiri & ottappa) may be developed. What is > your understanding on the development of hiri & ottappa ? > > They cannot just arise from "accumulation" alone. Don't you think? M: I did look and found only one sutta which directly states a cause for hiri otappa: 009. Sativaggo- Section on mindfulness. 1. Satisampaja¤¤asuttaü- Mindful awareness. 009.01. Bhikkhus, when mindful awareness is not present, gone wrong in mindful awareness, the cause for shame and remorse is destroyed.When shame and remorse is not present, gone wrong in shame and remorse, the cause for control of the mental faculties is destroyed. When the control of the mental faculties is not present, gone wrong in the control of the mental faculties, the cause for virtues is destroyed. When virtues are not present, gone wrong in virtues, the cause for right consentration is destroyed. When right concentration is not present, gone wrong in right concentration, the cause for seeing it as it really is, is destroyed. When seeing it as it really is, is not present, gone wrong in seeing it as it really is, the cause for disgust and disenchantment is destroyed. When disgust and disenchantment is not present, gone wrong in disgust and disenchantment, the cause for knowledge and vision of release is destroyed. M: So mindfulness is key, but also there maybe other factors which help as well as seen in the sutta below: "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-002.html M: so love and respect also seems to add/go along with shame and dread. Also useful to know what shame and dread is to begin with!: "And what is the treasure of conscience? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels shame at bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of conscience. "And what is the treasure of concern? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels concern for bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of concern. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an07-006.html#hiri M: So how to go about developing it? It looks like developing an attitude change: Cunda, purifying should be done thus:… Others will be shameless, we will be shameful. Others will be remorseless, we will be remorseful. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/008-salleka-sutta-e1.htm M: Good friends also seem to be helpful: Those with faith, agree with others with faith. Those with shame, agree with others with shame. Those with remorse agree with others with remorse. The concentrated agree with the concentrated. And the wise agree with the wise. Saüyutta Nikàya, Division II Ý Nidàna, Book 13 Ý Dhàtu Saüyutta Chapter 3 Ý Kammapatha Vagga M: I might add that reviewing your sila everyday will possibly be helpful as well. As to how strongly you need to develop it, at the least, to be able to keep the 5 precepts. At most for having any greed, hatered and a delusion in the mind. But also if it is excessive, it can be a defilement on its own. Some people have mental illness because they have too much shame (not going out of the house or meeting friends because of fear of criticism/shyness - constant self doubt, poor self esteem). Such people should seek to reduce it, not increase. How serious is it? Vijjàsuttaü- Knowledge. 105. Bhikkhus, ignorance is foremost for demeritorious things followed by lack of shame and lack of remorse. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/011-samanasannavaggo-e.htm M: And finally... Who in the world is a man constrained by conscience, who awakens to censure like a fine stallion to the whip? Those restrained by conscience are rare -- those who go through life always mindful. Having reached the end of suffering & stress, they go through what is uneven evenly; go through what is out-of-tune in tune. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyut ta/sn01-018.html metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Matheesha (Sarah and Nina) - > > Math. (AN VI.10) : > > > > Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to > > dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. What three? Lack > > of shame, lack of remorse and negligence. Bhikkhus, without > > dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel > > disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. > > > > Tep: There are several other suttas that begin the series of dhammas > leading to the highest attainment with hiri-ottappa ('shame and > remorseful', or 'conscience and concern'.) For example, MN 39 below. > > MN 39: "And what, monks, are the qualities that make one a > contemplative, that make one a brahman? 'We will be endowed with > conscience & concern (for the consequences of wrong-doing)': That's > how you should train yourselves. Now the thought may occur to you, 'We > are endowed with conscience & concern. That much is enough, that much > means we're done, so that the goal of our contemplative state has been > reached. There's nothing further to be done,' and you may rest content > with just that. So I tell you, monks. I exhort you, monks. Don't let > those of you who seek the contemplative state fall away from the goal > of the contemplative state when there is more to be done." > > Tep: Unfortunately, these two suttas do not tell us how the strong > sense of shame and remorse (hiri & ottappa) may be developed. What is > your understanding on the development of hiri & ottappa ? > > They cannot just arise from "accumulation" alone. Don't you think? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > P.S. I could not find another Website for AN VI.10 as you requested. > ========= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I came across this fascinating sutta I thought I should share with > > everyone. However the translation is suspect. If anyone can direct > > me towards a different translaton, or the pali words for the lists > > of 3's in this, I would be interested. > > > > metta > > > > Matheesha > > ----------------------- > > > > 6. Tayodhammasuttaü- Three things. > > > > 76. Bhikkhus, if these three things were not evident, the Thus Gone > > One rightfully enlightened would not have been born in the world. > > The discipline declared by the Thus Gone One would not have taken > > root. What three? > > > (snipped) > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > > Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/008-akankhavaggo-e.htm > > > 53621 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sati. lbidd2 Nina: "As I explained to Matheesha,I do not trust myself to go by experience, it may mean self-delusion." Hi Nina, I don't trust myself either, but since I don't trust myself, I don't trust anything else either. Who trusts? We are on a slippery raft, bobbing around in a rushing river, going who knows where~~~~~~~? Also, thanks for your other replys as well. It's a little disappointing there's no relation between nimmita and nimitta. And we still don't know how a deva rules. Is he in control? Larry 53622 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/16/05 8:12:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Howard: "However, when we experience a pleasant sensation, a rupa, as > object, is not the pleasantness experienced (not as object but > "participatively") at the very same time?" > > Hi Howard, > > I don't understand. A rupa isn't a sensation or pleasant. But maybe > experience (aka consciousness) is multifaceted and we do experience > several cetasikas at the same time. My understanding is that 5-door > consciousness is like a mirror image, except we *are* the mirror image. > Rupa doesn't see itself in the mirror and the mirror (eye base, etc.) is > also a rupa. > > Larry > > ======================== We see this matter differently, Larry. For me, all bodily sensations including those of hardness, warmth, motion, itches, pains, nausea etc are exactly rupas, they are known through the body door, and their experiential presence is body-door consciousness. But we've discussed this before. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53623 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi Tep I've noticed that in many posts lately you have mentioned the definition of Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas (in D. 22 and elsewhere) as support of the need for jhana or samadhi of some level to be developed in order to attain enlightenment, and I know there are others who share your view on this. I thought I would make a few comments on this point. Let's be clear that the description of Right Concentration does not say in so many words that jhana must be attained before enlightenment is possible. Consider the following: A. Right Concentration of the NEP is (one or other of) the 4 jhanas B. It is necessary to attain (one or other of) the 4 jhanas before enlightenment can be attained. The two statements are not the same. The second statement is an inference that is drawn from the first. We need to consider whether that is in fact what was meant. As Sukin said, the first question to consider here is what the NEP is all about. To my understanding, the terms 'noble', 'eightfold' and 'path' each have specific meanings: - the 'path' is the path that begins at stream-entry and ends with arahantship - it is 'noble' because it refers to the 4 stages of enlightenment, and is the path of the ariyans - it is 'eightfold' (Pali: attha-anga, literally, eight-factored) because it has eight factors or components, these being the factors (i.e., mental factors, or cetasikas) that are present at each moment of path consciousness. So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. To put this in the context of something that you and I have been discussing in another thread, the NEP is a description of a (supramundane) path moment, rather than of the actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment. Now with all the foregoing in mind, let me suggest that when Right Concentration is described in terms of the 4 jhanas, it means that at the moment of path consciousness the consciousness is experiencing its object (i.e., Nibbana) with a concentration of the intensity of one or other of the 4 jhanas. The same goes for the descriptions of the other 7 path factors; they are descriptions of the momentary effect or function of the factor in question. As to the actual development of awareness and understanding that leads to the attainment of the first moment of path consciousness (at stream-entry), this we find dealt with in the Satipatthana Sutta and numerous other suttas. Hoping I have managed to explain clearly. I appreciate that this goes directly against your present line of thinking, so I don't expect your agreement, but perhaps we can discuss this general area further. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Robert K. (Sukin, Nina, Jon, James)- > >You're right that MN 117 (an advanced sutta) does not give the definition >of "right concentration" or any of the 8 ariya-magga factors. He left it as >understood by his monks who were supposed to know the magga by >heart. > >You know for sure, after having studied many suttas for many years, that >our Greatest Teacher was very precise and consistent. He was very >careful in choosing words to convey the deepest meaning and >consistently repeated them over and over again. > >There has been no ambiguity (even when the translator was less than >satisfactory) in any sutta with respect to the main Dhamma like the Four >Noble Truths, the Satipatthana, the Magga, ... . > >That's why we need to look at another sutta for the definition of the Magga >factors and carry that definition faithfully to all other suttas. I would like to >suggest SN XLV.8, Magga-vibhanga Sutta : An Analysis of the Path, and >DN 22. Compare them and you will see my point. > >... ... > >Tep: I hope you agree with me. > > >Respectfully, > > >Tep > > 53624 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re:revulsion, nibbida, etc. matheesha333 Hi Nina, >M: > Different people consider different things as Self. N: I think we take both body and mind for self.... See the many suttas about the > five khandhas (S.N. khandhavagga) `Good Gotama, the soul is the body, this only is the truth and all else is false. Does good Gotama hold this view?' `No, Vaccha, I'm not of that view. `Good Gotama, the soul is different from the body, this only is the truth and all else is false. Does good Gotama hold this view?' `No,.... M: In my experience it is different. Some people say ashubha bhavana on the body is enough for them to realise that there is no self. For others that is not enough. They need to dissect the mind as well. I think the suttas you refer to are very general in that they reffer to anything and everything they could consider the self. Some people might think that consciousness is the proof of Self, or manasikara (I think therefore I am). I think this again reflects on the theory/practice split - the bckgrounds which we approach from. :) N:> We then read that the welltaught ariyan disciple feels revulsion. > Here we come to nibbida you refer to, but I think not so soon. In this sutta > there is reference to the welltaught ariyan disciple. M: Yes, I agree. > M: Have you come across this: knowledge of arising and passing away--> > > nibbida--> magga-->vimutti. > ------ > N: This seems too fast, there are many stages of paññaa in between. M: Fair enough. The buddha was known for summarising and expanding. N:> Knowledge of arising and passing away: this is insight..[snip] but first insight has to be > developed stage by stage. M: Yes, I agree with you on this. > N: After udayabhayaanupassana ñaa.na insight has to be developed on and on,> the wrong view is not eradicated until one has become a sotaapanna. M: This is a tricky area. Look at the sutta below: . Bhikkhus, when mindful awareness is not present, gone wrong in mindful awareness, the cause for shame and remorse is destroyed.When shame and remorse is not present, gone wrong in shame and remorse, the cause for control of the mental faculties is destroyed. When the control of the mental faculties is not present, gone wrong in the control of the mental faculties, the cause for virtues is destroyed. When virtues are not present, gone wrong in virtues, the cause for right consentration is destroyed. When right concentration is not present, gone wrong in right concentration, the cause for seeing it as it really is, is destroyed. When seeing it as it really is, is not present, gone wrong in seeing it as it really is, the cause for disgust and disenchantment is destroyed. When disgust and disenchantment is not present, gone wrong in disgust and disenchantment, the cause for knowledge and vision of release is destroyed. ------- This takes up the noble eightfold path at the level of sila. shows how it leads to yatabhuta nana. then to nibbida, then to knowledge and vision of release. I take it that yatabuta naana must correspond to some level with knowledge of arising and passing away. The difference between someone who has yatabuta naana and knowledge and vision of release (a sothapanna).. hm .. I think we go back to the old conunudrum. How right does right view have to be, for the eightfold path to be noble. It becomes an egg and chicken problem. > N: After udayabhayaanupassana ñaa.na insight has to be developed on and on, > the wrong view is not eradicated until one has become a sotaapanna. Before > that wrong view can arise, one may take insight for my insight. M: Nina, before someone has knowledge and vision of release, yatabuta naana has arisen. This means that he understands anatta, even though he might not have the knowledge of a sotapanna. Are you saying that (supramundane) right view begins when he understands anatta? N:> As to the pathfactors, these develop together, as I see it, not in > isolation. M: Agreed > As to what you describe as nibbida--> magga-->vimutti, I would say, not so > soon. The development of paññaa is very gradual, in many stages, and it may > take many lifetimes. M: It may, and hopefully if the buddha's instructions have been followed well it may take 7 years. The reason for the different lengths are given below. (Wealth of dhamma in that link, about mechanics of attaining nibbana for anyone interested) . The five faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are blunt in him as a result he realizes the destruction of desires slowly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the difficult means and slow realization. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/017-patipadavaggo-e.htm N:> N: We can notice that sound changes, loud or soft, and fading away. But this > is noticing, thinking. If sati is mindful of sound and it is known as a kind > of rupa it is different. There is a big difference here. It leads to > detachment. M: Yes, important one here. I will reply in your post to joop. > N:Brackets can be used:'we'. I switch to conventional, to explain the first > point. I want to make clear: it cannot be that there is a we who can make it M: fair enough Nina! Today I met a man who had a heart attack and didnt want medication becuase he thought god would heal him. He could also hear god speaking to him quite clearly! This man had a psychiatric problem and its quite interesting how its difficult to differentiate it with religious belief. take care Matheesha 53625 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: > Just now you are looking at the computer screen. There is defining, > perceiving of a thing you see. But there is also seeing, an element that > experiences only what is visible, or colour. Does it not seem to you that > seeing and colour appear together? Not one at a time? M: This is the crucial matter. I was waiting to bring this up in our other thread but to my pleasant surprise you seem to have done it on your own! It is possible just to see the colours and shapes and not process it into an object/pannati. This takes a lot of concentration. It is possible to experience it first (rupa), then experience sanna kicking in and giving it meaning ('sound of a bird'). It is even possible to experience ear consciousness going to the ear, then phassa happening, giving rise to the sound, but this is much later. Just for a moment, isnt it possible to see the computer screen without thinking 'computer screen'? Surely it is possible. The more difficult bit is to maintain it so that you can see a new stimulus arising. we are always late in this. A monk once told me that it is like sati and arammana running a race. The day sati goes before the arammana there is insight. metta Matheesha 53626 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:04pm Subject: Vism.XIV,208 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 208. And according to physical basis, any feeling that has an inferior physical basis is gross, while one with a superior physical basis is subtle. (viii)-(ix) What is gross should be regarded as 'inferior' in the inferior-superior classification, and what is subtle 'superior'. ************************** 208. vatthuvasena caapi hiinavatthukaa yaa kaaci vedanaa o.laarikaa, pa.niitavatthukaa sukhumaa. hiinapa.niitabhede yaa o.laarikaa, saa hiinaa. yaa ca sukhumaa, saa pa.niitaati da.t.thabbaa. 53627 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:24pm Subject: XVII 100 lbidd2 100. (24) The same states that are presence condition, because they assist by their non-disappearance, should be understood as a 'non-disappearance condition'. Or this dyad is stated as an embellishment of teaching to suit the needs of those who are teachable, just as [in the Maatikaa of the Dhammasa"nga.nii] the 'dissociated-from-cause dyad' is given after the 'causeless dyad'. 53628 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XVII 100 lbidd2 Premature. Hold that thought. L. 53629 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:16pm Subject: Not Yours ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Relinquishing what is Not Ownable induces a quite Calmed Ease! Bhikkhus, leave whatever is not yours, give it up! Having left it, relinquished it and in every respect released it, that will lead to your lasting welfare, ease & happiness! And what is it, Bhikkhus, that is not yours? The eye is not yours... Forms are not yours... The ear is not yours... Sounds are not yours... The nose is not yours... Smells are not yours... The tongue is not yours... Tastes are not yours... The body is not yours... Touches are not yours... The mind is not yours... Mental States are not yours... When you have left it, given it up, relinquished it, & fully released it, that will indeed lead to your welfare, ease and happiness for a long, long time... Imagine, Bhikkhus, that people were to carry off any dry grass, & all sticks, twigs in this forest & burn it all !!! Would you then think: 'People are carrying us all off, and burning us all...' ??? No, Sir. Why not? Because that grass is neither our self, nor belonging to our self...!!! Exactly so too, Bhikkhus: The eye is not yours. Forms are not yours. The ear is not yours. Sounds are not yours. The nose is not yours. Smells are not yours. The tongue is not yours. Tastes are not yours. The body is not yours. Touches are not yours. The mind is not yours. Mental States are not yours. These are neither your self nor belonging to any other self! When you have left these, given them all up, released them, and relinquished them, that will indeed lead to your welfare, safety, ease & happiness for a long, long, long time... Comments: All states - internal as external - are wholly empty of any stable & same "ego-self"... Their nature is to arise and cease... Neither can they ever be kept, nor ever owned... Glinging to what never can be kept, is pain... Relinquishing it all, is indeed happiness... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 129-30 Section 35: On The 6 senses. Thread on Not Yours!: 139+40. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 53630 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:34pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 593 ) gazita2002 Hello Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Dhamma Threads have been running on the course of different stocks > of dhamma. Among different stocks the last stock I have been > discussing is the stock of Noble Truth. Again in that substock the > truth of Path is under discussion. > > In that Path the 7th path-factor or magga`nga is right-mindfulness > or sammaa-sati. To some extent sammaa-sati has been explained. For > sammaa-sati to arise the object must always be naama or ruupa. > Otherwise it will not be sammaa-sati. > > What are 'foundation of mindfulness'? Or what are 4 satipa.t.thaana? > They are four and they are > > 1. contemplating on the body > 2. contemplating on the feeling > 3. contemplating on the mind > 4. contemplating on the dhamma. > > Please note that these are my own interpretations, which others may > or may not agree. Here I put 'the' in all four cases. Because they > are not general things but they are quite confined to the domain of > those who contemplate on these four. azita: have just read the Satipatthana Sutta for the first time and have a few questions arising from my reading. At first reading it seems simple enough :-) but the more I think about it the more difficult it seems For example, why did Buddha specifically state 'body' and not all rupas as the 'body' is in reality rupa? Contemplate on the mind - this means citta doesn't it? Contemplate on the dhamma - does dhamma in this aspect mean concepts as well? > > Satipa.t.thaana = sati + pa + .t.thaana > > Sati means 'unforgetfullness to do merit' 'remembrance to do merit' > 'remembrance to perform wholesome dhamma'. Not just simple > mindfulness is sati. Take the example of thief who is very mindful > not to be caught by the owner or the police. Is it wholesome deed? > No. > > .T.thaana means 'place' 'site' 'station' 'ground' 'base' 'location' > etc etc. > > Pa means 'along' 'with' 'along with' 'thorough' 'through' etc. > > Foundation of mindfulness is a bit close to what Noble Ones practise. > > If the object is not of body, feeling, mind, dhamma then even if > there is sati that sati is not right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. azita: what if there is sati that knows visible object, is this not sammaa-sati? thank you in advance, Htoo Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 53631 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:29pm Subject: Re: sati. buddhatrue Hi Larry (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Nina: "As I explained to Matheesha,I do not trust myself to go by > experience, it > may mean self-delusion." > > Hi Nina, > > I don't trust myself either, but since I don't trust myself, I don't > trust anything else either. Who trusts? We are on a slippery raft, > bobbing around in a rushing river, going who knows where~~~~~~~? > > Also, thanks for your other replys as well. It's a little disappointing > there's no relation between nimmita and nimitta. And we still don't know > how a deva rules. Is he in control? > > Larry > You must be able to trust your own experience- there is no other way to reach nibbana. No one from the outside is going to give it to you. Texts and teachers can guide but ultimately we have to depend on ourselves. Also, maybe this information could be helpful to you in regards to your questions about Devas (you might also want to read the whole article. It is very fascinating.): "III.A1.21. Paranimmita-vasavati, the heaven of the gods. Here, the Deva Gods have a wielding power. Mara or the devil, the most powerful of all Devas and the legendary opposition to the Buddha is considered to be from this realm. They can live up to a life span of 16000 years, which is equivalent to over 9.2 billion earthly years. III.A2.22. Nimmanarati, the realm of Deva gods who can create objects and mansions for sensual enjoyment. They can live up to a life span of 8000 years, which is equivalent to > 2.3 billion Earthly years." http://www.nibbana.com/ (Sorry, I can't get a direct link because this website uses imbedded frames. From the main page choose the link "Devas and Brahmas", then from that page choose the link "Thirty One Form of Existence). Metta, James 53632 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:43pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. James: Jon, you raise a lot of issues in this post which I could disagree with, but I have done so on numerous occasions. But I don't think I have called attention to this commentarial phrase of "path moment" previously. Do you realize that the phrase "path moment", as you are using it, is an oxymoron? It is the same as saying "jumbo shrimp" or "fiery ice". Further, do you think it is wise to base your entire concept of the Buddha's dhamma on an oxymoronic phrase which the Buddha didn't teach? Metta, James 53633 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 0:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 336- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[f] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] Sloth and torpor can arise together with wrong view, diììhi, and in this case they accompany lobha-múla-citta which is associated with wrong view and prompted. Sloth and torpor can arise together with conceit, måna, and in this case they accompany lobha-múlacitta which is without wrong view and prompted(3). Sloth and torpor which arise with lobha-múla-citta may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Sloth and torpor can arise together with envy (isså), stinginess (macchariya) or regret (kukkucca) which, one at a time, can accompany dosa-múla-citta, and in that case the dosa-múla-citta is prompted. The accompanying feeling is unpleasant feeling. *** 3) Four of the eight types of lobha-múla-citta are associated with wrong view, diììhi, and four are without wrong view. Conceit can accompany lobha-múla-citta without wrong view, but this is not always so. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53634 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: From Phil buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: I like you a lot. James: Thanks! I like you too. Phil: But I've come to the conclusion, for the time being a lot, that for people of nascent understanding it is best not to participate in debates or discussions with people whose views are radically different. James: Okay, if you feel that way. Phil: but I think such discussions just cause understanding to be exploited prematurely and with excessive, forced confidence - it is best for understanding to arise in unpredicted ways. James: Don't quite understand what you mean here. Phil: If it's something that we pull out to use in internet discussions, it is not understanding, it is Phil's understanding, or James' understanding, and then it is does not help the development of understanding. James: Of course it is going to be Phil's or James' understanding, whose else's would it be? Again, I am not quite following you. Phil: For me, there is too much greedy grasping for understanding, so I will not do it here for the time being, for the same of my own bhavana (mental development). James: Okay, but maybe you are just grasping for peace-of-mind, not necessarily "understanding" (though they do go hand-in-hand). Phil: This is why I talk of dojo busting - it is not because I cling to a pleasant, consistent atmosphere where my guru is respected James: Actually, I think that concept is exactly what you cling to. Phil: - it's because I think clashing of views, no matter how polite, is contrary to bhavana for people of nascent understanding. James: This is too vague for me to understand what you mean. Phil: For example, my nagging doubts about A. Sujin's approach to samadhi didn't come from reading about it in posts from you or anyone else, it came from my own reading of and reflection on suttas. James: I'm glad to read that you have some doubts about her approach to samadhi. That is, of course, my main sticking point. As far as what conditioned this for you? That is too hard to say, really. Conditions are numerous and varied. Phil: It's interesting that I have never rehearsed or mentally re- written posts to Nina or Robert K, but with you or Tep or Swee I could spend a whole afternoon obsessing about them - another sign of unwholesome attachment to self-identity or something, I don't know.) James: I think that what you describe is an example of wrong concentration. Right concentration is concentration on the present moment, not the past or the future. Concentrating on the past or future leads to mental proliferation, desires, clinging, and subsequently suffering. Hope you have a nice break. Keep in touch. Metta, James 53635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q.Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 6 nilovg Dear Htoo, 2: direct understanding that is being developed (in the process of developing). 3:In English we would not say: pierced understanding. Better: understanding that is the realization of the truth. op 16-12-2005 22:42 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > 1. theoretical understanding > 2. direct understanding > 3. pierced understanding > 53636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q>‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] nilovg Dear Htoo, Not quite, unless I misunderstood you. When there is akusala citta with thiina and middha there is no yonisao manaasikaara but ayoniso manasikaara, improper attention which is also akusala. Nina. op 16-12-2005 22:49 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > First I thought that > yoniso-manasikaara (wise-attention) has to have pannaa. But now I am a > bit clear on the matter. It is attention that works for thina and > middha they are not good mental factors because of stiffness and > shrinkness. 53637 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: From Phil philofillet Hi James (and all at the end) Sorry for all the psycho babble in that post. > Phil: but I think such discussions just cause understanding to be > exploited prematurely and with excessive, forced confidence - it is > best for understanding to arise in unpredicted ways. > James: Don't quite understand what you mean here. I'm not sure either. Don't worry about it. I was thinking about this post of mine a little more. I think the problem is that although I have accused others of having adversarial tendencies, I'm the one who does. So I've become aware of how I read the posts of people such as yourself or other people who have ever dissed my teacher, and I hunt for wrong view, gleefully, without a charitable spirit, without any metta whatsoever. So as long as I sense that this is the case, I will take a break from reading your posts, or other people I know from experience I will disagree with. Yes, we can learn from people we disagree with, but in my case I am just feeding unkind tendencies without learning anything. That's my "issue", nothing to do with the nature of Dhamma discussion between those that disagree. So I was wrong. But I will still take a break from reading your posts. > Phil: If it's something that we pull out to use in internet > discussions, it is not understanding, it is Phil's understanding, or > James' understanding, and then it is does not help the development > of understanding. > > James: Of course it is going to be Phil's or James' understanding, > whose else's would it be? Again, I am not quite following you. Yeah, of course you're right. We're not sotapanna. It will be James' understanding, Phil's understanding. However, I don't know about you but for sure when I simply listen to Dhamma talks or read suttas there is more detachment. I am not aware of being Phil at such times. But when I'm here at DSG I am very much Phil with the reputation of Phil and it's all about Phil much more than it is when I am just reading or listening or reflecting. > Phil: For me, there is too much greedy grasping for understanding, > so I will not do it here for the time being, for the same of my own > bhavana (mental development). > > James: Okay, but maybe you are just grasping for peace-of-mind, not > necessarily "understanding" (though they do go hand-in-hand). Yes, this grasping for peace-of-mind is natural. It goes on alot. it is akusala, though natural and unavoidable for us. But there *is* calm, kusala calm, accompanying every kusala citta. That kind of kusala peace of mind can not be grasped, it must arise due to conditions. > Phil: This is why I talk of dojo busting - it is not because I cling > to a pleasant, consistent atmosphere where my guru is respected > > James: Actually, I think that concept is exactly what you cling to. ?@?@Ph: You may be right. But I don't like pleasant atmospheres just for the sake of pleasant. I get irritated by the pleasant tone of exchanges here a lot of the time. I don't know why that is but it's not important. Pleasant atmosphere accompanying the dispensation of very pure Dhamma from a person of superiour understanding, ah now that is sweeeeet....that's what I get from listening to the talks, though they have apparently been edited to cut out some less pleasant outbursts of hysterical shrieking and hollaring...or so I hear... > Phil: - it's because I think clashing of views, no matter how > polite, is contrary to bhavana for people of nascent understanding. > > James: This is too vague for me to understand what you mean. I think understanding has to sink in - when we use understanding to score points in a Dhamma point it is contrary to bhavana. No, maybe it isn't. It depends on the cittas involved, as I said earlier. With me, akusala adversarial cittas are involved for some reason, so it is contrary to bhavana. That is just me, I guess. > > Phil: For example, my nagging doubts about A. Sujin's approach to > samadhi didn't come from reading about it in posts from you or > anyone else, it came from my own reading of and reflection on suttas. > > James: I'm glad to read that you have some doubts about her approach > to samadhi. That is, of course, my main sticking point. As far as > what conditioned this for you? That is too hard to say, really. > Conditions are numerous and varied. Ph: You're right. > Phil: It's interesting that I have never rehearsed or mentally re- > written posts to Nina or Robert K, but with you or Tep or Swee I > could spend a whole afternoon obsessing about them - another sign of > unwholesome attachment to self-identity or something, I don't know.) > James: I think that what you describe is an example of wrong > concentration. Right concentration is concentration on the present > moment, not the past or the future. Concentrating on the past or > future leads to mental proliferation, desires, clinging, and > subsequently suffering. Ph: Hmmm. That's good. Thanks again for your patience, James. Hi all - for the reasons laid out above, I will be taking a break from reading the posts of all but the handful of A. Sujin students who come here. This is because I am aware of my adversarial tendencies and don't want to feed them. Sorry if it seems that I'm being aloof...just know that it's best for bhavana now. Thanks! Phil p.s James, I have a favour to ask you. I've promised Naomi that I will only be posting here on Saturday or Sunday night. If you ever see a post from me midweek, could you slap me gently on the wrist. I was inspired by how you kept you promise to Amr. Thanks, amigo. 53638 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q.Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 6 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > 2: direct understanding that is being developed (in the process of > developing). > 3:In English we would not say: pierced understanding. Better: understanding > that is the realization of the truth. > op 16-12-2005 22:42 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > 1. theoretical understanding > > 2. direct understanding > > 3. pierced understanding --------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your correction, explanation and suggestion. With respect, Htoo Naing 53639 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q>‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Not quite, unless I misunderstood you. When there is akusala citta with > thiina and middha there is no yonisao manaasikaara but ayoniso manasikaara, > improper attention which is also akusala. > Nina. > op 16-12-2005 22:49 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > First I thought that > > yoniso-manasikaara (wise-attention) has to have pannaa. But now I am a > > bit clear on the matter. It is attention that works for thina and > > middha they are not good mental factors because of stiffness and > > shrinkness. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, You limited 'unless I misunderstood you'. Here there is missing to grasp what I have said. What we are discussing is 'sasankharika citta' or 'prompted consciousness'. There are 2 kinds of prompted consciousness. One unwholesome and another wholesome. Attention is present in both consciousness. That is manasikaara. In wisdom-free consciousness of promptedness (in kusala) there also is manasikaara. But that manasikaara is not accompanied by thiina and middha. What I understood according to you (maybe Sarah) is that there is no thina and middha in kusala because of wise attention or yoniso manasikaara. I asked if it is wisdom-free will there be thina and middha. Answer was no because there is wise attention. I think I need more explanation on this. Or we had better start a new thread on 'Thina-middha and naanavippayutta' or 'Sloth-torpor and wisdom-free prompted mind'. With respect, Htoo Naing 53640 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Htoo - But I have enormous confidence in what I have seen of the Buddha's teachings in the Sutta Pitaka, a confidence gained from studying those teachings and from following them. Finally it seems to me that what the exact facts are with regard to modes of knowing is less important, than the realization of the tilakkhana, the realization of the four noble truths, and the realization of conditionality and non-self. The direct apprehension of these will usher in awakening and freedom. Then we will know what is what. Theories are just that - theories. They,like opinions, are not worth a great deal. What is worth a lot is following the Buddha's liberation teachings, following them to the very end by engaging his entire program of practice, leaving nothing out, and, most particularly,constantly looking at what arises and ceases right here and now, seeing it as clearly as possible, with a powerful attention that, at the very same time, allows for a radical letting go. With metta, Howard --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Now I understand what is to follow and what is not to follow. In your above passage there is a sentence saying_ 'by engaging his entire program of practice, leaving nothing out,'. Someone here might deny 'the program of practice', :-)) With deep respect, Htoo Naing 53641 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:02am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 593 ) htootintnaing Dear Gazita, Thanks for your reply. Certain texts are good for all levels of student. Example is a book on method of examination. This book is very useful for all beginners. But when those who are no more beginners read that book there still has value to booster the readers who are no more beginners. Again when that book is read for higher learning again there exists value to add to higher understanding. Because the method is involved in all levels of understanding. That is why it is always always afresh. Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta is such one. Please see below for discussions. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gazita: Hello Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Dhamma Threads have been What are 'foundation of mindfulness'? Or what are 4 satipa.t.thaana? > They are four and they are > > 1. contemplating on the body > 2. contemplating on the feeling > 3. contemplating on the mind > 4. contemplating on the dhamma. > > Please note that these are my own interpretations, which others may > or may not agree. Here I put 'the' in all four cases. Because they > are not general things but they are quite confined to the domain of > those who contemplate on these four. azita: have just read the Satipatthana Sutta for the first time and have a few questions arising from my reading. At first reading it seems simple enough :-) but the more I think about it the more difficult it seems --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is usual. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gazita continued: For example, why did Buddha specifically state 'body' and not all rupas as the 'body' is in reality rupa? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because satipatthaana is method to be stick to. Realities ruupa are there in 1. body-contemplation 2. dhamma-contemplation. Or they are cognised through contemplating on 'body' and 'dhamma'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gazita: Contemplate on the mind - this means citta doesn't it? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mainly citta even though cittas are accompanied by cetasikas. Example; when one is free of hindrances then he has to know that the mind is well concentrated mind. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gazita continued: Contemplate on the dhamma - does dhamma in this aspect mean concepts as well? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have wrote on 'Dhammaanupassanaa'. I wrote it as 108 Dhammaanupassanaa. And it is extended with 99 Saccaanupassanaa. All these are Dhamma. The words may be concept but they bear the meaning of respective dhamma. 1. hindrances are dhamma and not concept. They are realities. Is lobha(attachment) not a reality? Is dosa(aversion) not a reality? Are thina(sloth)- and middha(torpor) not realities? Are uddhacca(upset) and kukkucca(worry) not realities? Is vicikicchaa(doubt) not a realities? 2. aggregates are dhamma and not concept. They are realities. Are ruupa(forms) not realities? Are vedana (feelings) not realities? Are sannaa(perceptions) not realities? Are sankhaara(formations) not realities? Are vinnaana(consciousness) not realities? 3. sense-bases are dhamma and not concept. They are realities. Are eyes not realities? [ears, nose, tongue, body, mind] Are visual objects not realities? [auditory, olfactory, gustatory tactile, mind-sense-base ] 4. enlightenment-factors are dhamma and not concept. They are realities. Is sati not a reality? (panna, piiti, passaddhi, viriya, ekaggataa, tatramajjhattaa). 5. Noble truths are dhamma and not concept. They are realities. Are pancuppadaanakkhandhaa (5 clinging aggregates) not realities? Is tanhaa or lobha not a reality? Is nibbana not a reality? Is NEP not a reality? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Satipa.t.thaana = sati + pa + .t.thaana > Sati means 'unforgetfullness to do merit' 'remembrance to do merit' > 'remembrance to perform wholesome dhamma'. Not just simple > mindfulness is sati. Take the example of thief who is very mindful > not to be caught by the owner or the police. Is it wholesome deed? > No. > > .T.thaana means 'place' 'site' 'station' 'ground' 'base' 'location' > etc etc. > > Pa means 'along' 'with' 'along with' 'thorough' 'through' etc. > > Foundation of mindfulness is a bit close to what Noble Ones practise. > > If the object is not of body, feeling, mind, dhamma then even if > there is sati that sati is not right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. azita: what if there is sati that knows visible object, is this not sammaa-sati? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very sammaa-sati. Because The Buddha said, 'Iti ruupam, iti ruupassa samudayo, iti ruupassa attha`ngamo' in Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta in Dhammaanupassanaa. That means 'This is ruupam (visible object). This is its cause. This is its cessation'. But this part is very high. That is why it is preached in the later part of the long discourse of mahaasatipatthaana sutta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- thank you in advance, Htoo Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Forgive me if I confused. Are there two different persons called 'azita' and 'gazita'? :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 53642 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. jwromeijn Dear Nina and Tep To keep the things clear, some short remarks, answers and question to your messages 53602, 53606 and 53609. Nina: "Just now you are looking at the computer screen. There is defining, perceiving of a thing you see. But there is also seeing, an element that experiences only what is visible, or colour. Does it not seem to you that seeing and colour appear together? Not one at a time?" Joop: Of course it seems so, that's the way the human brain functions; but I can analyse it with help of the Abhidhamma; and I can experience (sometime) the difference during meditation. ============================================ Nina: "About the difficulty of the development of paññaa, I should add that the Buddha said that the Dhamma is profound and difficult to understand." Joop: I know He did; I'm glad you say "profound" and not "difficult". I did not stated I had completely developed panna, I said I think I have nanarupapariccheda-nana as the first of an ordered list of 16 nana's as used in Mahasi's system of (formal) vipassana-meditation; in #53598. My question to you: Nina I'm really interested what you think of this ordered list, can you compare it with your frame of reference? ============================================ Tep: "Nina's questions are well known by Khun Sujin's students. I wonder if you understand the meaning behind the questions. (Why did Nina ask?)" Joop: Perhaps I reveal a secret now but I'm not a student of Sujin And a "meaning behind a question" I don't like: questions had to be straight and I will perceive Nina's ones as straight and not retoric. ============================================ Tep: "Is your insight knowledge the same as 'seeing & knowing nama &rupa the way they really are' (yathabhuta-nana)? " Joop: My first remark is: no, I was talking about nanaruapariccheda; perhaps you can answer to Nina (above) about the 16 nana's too! My second remark: thanks to bring this concept (it's not one of the four ultimate rewalities, so it's a concept) to my attention.I did not have this pali-concept in my memory but several times on my hard disk. I like the use of in "Transcendental Dependent Arising; A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta" by Bhikkhu Bodhi (The Wheel Publication No. 277/278) because that is more optimistic than the traditional DO-list. But it's to difficult for me to make a final comparison of this list (below) and that of Mahasi I quoted; said simple: it's another level of understanding I was talking about. ================================================= Tep: "Does your direct experiencing of nama & rupa reveal to you clearly their origination and dissolution in the present moment?" Joop: No. I know nothing of any origination of rupa and thus not of nama but that does not bother me: they just happen (Tep, your question was retoric; but it's my answer) Metta Joop From: "Transcendental Dependent Arising": Faith (saddha); Joy (pamojja); Rapture (piti); Tranquillity (passaddhi); Happiness (sukha); Concentration (samadhi); Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana); Disenchantment (nibbida); Dispassion (viraga); Emancipation (vimutti); Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana) 53643 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 6 philofillet Hi Nina I've been getting into the Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. It's great. > We say that everything is dhamma, but if there has never been > awareness of what appears through the eyes at this moment, realities cannot > appear as just dhamma. We should begin to be aware of realities so that it > will become evident that everything is dhamma. I've often heard - and anyone would know this without hearing it - how important it is to remember that when we are studying abhidhamma, it is about realities that are here and now. Realities (paramattha dhammas) that have to be directly understood, eventually. But I sometimes feel, as I think I said last week or so, that there are quite often lines like "we should begin to be aware of realities" that surprise me. If awareness of realities arises, it arises. How can there be a "should?" Sometimes I look up from the book, and try to be aware of the present realities. Of course I can't - that's just thinking, "trying to catch moments" as Sukin calls it in one talk. Eventually it may be evident that everything is dhamma - people who have listened to A. Sujin for awhile know that she is not saying that this will happen overnight, it will take a long time. But sometimes when I hear her or read these "shoulds" it's not clear enough. We *can* being to be aware of realities. If we are told we "should" begin to be aware, it is dangerous, because we can't be aware until there are conditions for it. I know we talked about this last week. But still coming across all these "shoulds" that I still have a little bit of trouble with - but only a tiny little interesting bit of trouble. >Understanding can gradually > grow, and everybody will know for himself to what extent it has been > developed. How? I thought the adze handle simile said that we don't measure to what extent understanding has been developed (or was it to what extent defilements have been eradicated?) It seems unlikely to me that everyone will know this. Is this referring to stages of enlightenment when we know things clearly? > People > who study but who have no awareness at all during their whole life are like > the ladle who serves the curry but does not know the taste. If those are the conditions, so be it. It is no use to try to force oneself to have awareness because one is worried about having wasted one's life, to try to speed up sati because one is afraid of being the non-tasting spoon. That is what throws people off the path, fear about not getting enough results. > The next life > they have to listen again, they have to memorize what they heard, but if > they thoroughly study the realities that appear they will begin to > understand their characteristics. This sounds pretty intentional. The "thoroughly study" can arise in a natural, unforced way, I know. But for people like me who are impatient and have strong lobha tendencies, being told to thoroughly study the realities that appear could be dangerous. > It is very > beneficial to read your book ³A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas² as an > introduction to the study. I understand that the study of the dhammas really > has to be developed for a long time, it is cira kåla bhåvan?E We do not > expect to cause the arising of satipatthåna at a particular time or even in > this life. > > Sujin: The study of the characteristics of realities has to be developed for > a long time. People should study so that they have first theoretical > understanding of realities and this will lead to direct understanding of the > characteristics of realities. *May* lead. No expectations. Or can it be said that theoretical understanding of realities always leads to direct understanding? I wouldn't have thought so... Phil No hurry for a reply, Nina. I'll only be here on Saturdays. 53644 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:55am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > I've noticed that in many posts lately you have mentioned the definition > of Right Concentration Hallo Jon, Tep, James Jon, thanks for bringing this so straight. It makes things clear and makes it possible to state I deeply disagree with this interpretation of the NEP. Do you realize what your idea means: that for somebody who is not a streamenterer the (Noble Eightfold) PATH IS NOT YET RELEVANT. I will not try to use Sutta-texts to show this idea is not correct. But I'm sure the Buddha has never said: be patient, wait till things happen and then you got streamenterer and then in one split second you've gone the Path. In fact you say: the Path is not a path. Now you have tried to explain 'right concentration' in your way of thinking, I'm curious how you will do it with one of the other (seven) factors: "right livelihood"; I'm afraid that's in your system not "livelihood" at all and not about ethical behavior, every day again, at all. Jon: "… the first question to consider here is what the NEP is all about. To my understanding, the terms 'noble', 'eightfold' and 'path' each have specific meanings: - the 'path' is the path that begins at stream-entry and ends with arahantship - it is 'noble' because it refers to the 4 stages of enlightenment, and is the path of the ariyans - it is 'eightfold' (Pali: attha-anga, literally, eight-factored) because it has eight factors or components, these being the factors (i.e., mental factors, or cetasikas) that are present at each moment of path consciousness. So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. To put this in the context of something that you and I have been discussing in another thread, the NEP is a description of a (supramundane) path moment, rather than of the actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment." Metta Joop 53645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi James Thanks for the observations and comments. I'll certainly consider your point. Could I ask you to elaborate a little on why you see the expression 'path moment' (as used in the post) to be oxymoronic? And would it make any difference if I said instead 'moment of path-consciousness'? Thanks. Jon buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Jon: So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path >moment. > >James: Jon, you raise a lot of issues in this post which I could >disagree with, but I have done so on numerous occasions. But I don't >think I have called attention to this commentarial phrase of "path >moment" previously. > >Do you realize that the phrase "path moment", as you are using it, is >an oxymoron? It is the same as saying "jumbo shrimp" or "fiery ice". >Further, do you think it is wise to base your entire concept of the >Buddha's dhamma on an oxymoronic phrase which the Buddha didn't teach? > >Metta, >James > > 53646 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:41am Subject: Re: three things- shame & remorse? Mindful Awareness buddhistmedi... Dear Matheesha - I was delighted to see your fruitful search results on hiri-ottappa. These suttas are very refreshing and your predise comments are second to none. Thank you very much. I like the following a lot. 'Bhikkhus, when mindful awareness is not present, gone wrong in mindful awareness, the cause for shame and remorse is destroyed.When shame and remorse is not present, gone wrong in shame and remorse, the cause for control of the mental faculties is destroyed. ' Respectfully, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, (snipped) > M: I did look and found only one sutta which directly states a cause > for hiri otappa: > > 009. Sativaggo- Section on mindfulness. > 1. Satisampaja¤¤asuttaü- Mindful awareness. > 009.01. Bhikkhus, when mindful awareness is not present, gone wrong > in mindful awareness, the cause for shame and remorse is > destroyed.When shame and remorse is not present, gone wrong in shame > and remorse, the cause for control of the mental faculties is > destroyed. (snipped) > > M: So mindfulness is key, but also there maybe other factors which > help as well as seen in the sutta below: > (snipped) > > M: so love and respect also seems to add/go along with shame and > dread. > > Also useful to know what shame and dread is to begin with!: > > "And what is the treasure of conscience? There is the case where a > disciple of the noble ones feels shame at bodily misconduct, verbal > misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of > conscience. > "And what is the treasure of concern? There is the case where a > disciple of the noble ones feels concern for bodily misconduct, > verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of > concern. > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt > ara/an07-006.html#hiri > > M: So how to go about developing it? It looks like developing an > attitude change: > > Cunda, purifying should be done thus:… Others will be shameless, we > will be shameful. Others will be remorseless, we will be remorseful. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/008-salleka-sutta-e1.htm > > M: Good friends also seem to be helpful: > (snipped) > > M: I might add that reviewing your sila everyday will possibly be > helpful as well. As to how strongly you need to develop it, at the > least, to be able to keep the 5 precepts. At most for having any > greed, hatered and a delusion in the mind. But also if it is > excessive, it can be a defilement on its own. Some people have > mental illness because they have too much shame (not going out of > the house or meeting friends because of fear of criticism/shyness - > constant self doubt, poor self esteem). Such people should seek to > reduce it, not increase. > > How serious is it? > (snipped) 53647 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 12/17/05 8:58:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi James > > Thanks for the observations and comments. I'll certainly consider your > point. Could I ask you to elaborate a little on why you see the > expression 'path moment' (as used in the post) to be oxymoronic? And > would it make any difference if I said instead 'moment of > path-consciousness'? Thanks. > > Jon > ========================= If I can butt in with some language-use comments: A path is something to be traversed, and that traversal occurs in stages over a period of time, and not instantaneously. Thus, to take 'path' to mean "path moment" or "moment of path consciousness" is an odd use of language. Now, the terms 'path moment' and 'moment of path consciousness' are, themselves, perfectly good terms that reference an awakening, a timeless moment of realization of nibbana that is associated with the path, occurring along the way, and which is a high point along the path. But to identify the path with a path moment seems off the mark to me. It is an identifying of an entire journey with a single moment of that journey. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53648 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I appreciate your knowledge of the magga as shown below. >Jon: > > To my understanding, the terms 'noble', 'eightfold' and > 'path' each have specific meanings: > - the 'path' is the path that begins at stream-entry and ends with > arahantship > - it is 'noble' because it refers to the 4 stages of enlightenment, and > is the path of the ariyans > - it is 'eightfold' (Pali: attha-anga, literally, eight-factored) > because it has eight factors or components, these being the factors > (i.e., mental factors, or cetasikas) that are present at each moment of > path consciousness. > > So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. > Tep: I am in agreement with you here about the meanings of noble, path, and eightfold as experienced by a noble disciple. > Jon: > To put this in the context of something that you and I have been > discussing in another thread, the NEP is a description of a > (supramundane) path moment, rather than of the actual practice of the > development of insight leading to that attainment. > Tep: If you label the Path knowledge as attained by a noble disciple as "supramundane/lokuttara, then I also see that it is NOT the "actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment", because such Path knowledge is already attained. >Jon: > Now with all the foregoing in mind, let me suggest that when Right > Concentration is described in terms of the 4 jhanas, it means that at > the moment of path consciousness the consciousness is experiencing its object (i.e., Nibbana) with a concentration of the intensity of one or other of the 4 jhanas. > Tep: Don't be surprised -- I also agree with you that the right concentration is supported by the other seven "samma" Path factors, and may I add, it is the same as the four rupa-jhana (as defined in DN 22 and other suttas). > Jon: > The same goes for the descriptions of the other 7 path factors; they are descriptions of the momentary effect or function of the factor in question. > Tep: If what you mean by "momentary effect" as the attainment of each of the seven noble Path factors, then I also see the same conclusion. Why? Because they corresponds to the Path attainment in a noble disciple. The detail may be found in MN 117 and Anupada Sutta, MN 111. > Jon: > As to the actual development of awareness and understanding that leads to the attainment of the first moment of path consciousness (at > stream-entry), this we find dealt with in the Satipatthana Sutta and > numerous other suttas. Tep: To be more precise, may I focus on one very important sutta: MN 117? This sutta clearly explains how to develop each and every Path factors from the level below the "supramundane" attainment. I have written elsewhere about such a process in MN 117, that I believe is "the actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment". >Jon: > Hoping I have managed to explain clearly. I appreciate that this goes directly against your present line of thinking, so I don't expect your agreement, but perhaps we can discuss this general area further. > Tep: On the contrary, I am in total agreement with your above statements. The only point that I am not sure we are in agreement is : what you think of the MN 117 as to its providing the way for worldlings to develop the eight Path factors to the lokuttara level. My point: before the attainment of the supramundane magga factors, each Path factor can be developed jointly (samma-ditthi + samma- vayama + samma-sati running and revolving around the first Path factors) and sequentailly (samma-ditthi as "forerunner", then samma- sankappa follows, then samma-vaca follows ...) as in MN 117. Respectfully yours, Tep ========= 53649 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas One missing word .. buddhistmedi... Hi Jon and all - One important word was missing in the last post : > > Hi, Jon - > > I appreciate your knowledge of the magga as shown below. > (snipped) > > My point: before the attainment of the supramundane magga factors, > each Path factor can be developed jointly (samma-ditthi + samma- > vayama + samma-sati running and revolving around the first Path > factors) and sequentailly (samma-ditthi as "forerunner", then samma- > sankappa follows, then samma-vaca follows ...) as in MN 117. > Tep: The missing word is "five" to be inserted in "running and revolving around the first Path factors" so that the corrected phrase is : running and revolving around the first five Path factors. Regards, Tep ======= 53650 From: nina Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:43am Subject: Dhammain Cambodia, Ch 14, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 53651 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:20am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - There are some subtle change in Jon's words this time that I have found agreeable. So I am going to defend Jon for him. (Of course, I am not his attorney!) > Joop: > Jon, thanks for bringing this so straight. It makes things clear and > makes it possible to state I deeply disagree with this interpretation > of the NEP. > Do you realize what your idea means: that for somebody who is not a > streamenterer the (Noble Eightfold) PATH IS NOT YET RELEVANT. > > I will not try to use Sutta-texts to show this idea is not correct. > But I'm sure the Buddha has never said: be patient, wait till things > happen and then you got streamenterer and then in one split second > you've gone the Path. > In fact you say: the Path is not a path. Now you have tried to > explain 'right concentration' in your way of thinking, I'm curious > how you will do it with one of the other (seven) factors: "right > livelihood"; I'm afraid that's in your system not "livelihood" at all > and not about ethical behavior, every day again, at all. > > Tep: The Path is VERY relevant to worldlings as Mars is to the NASA scientists and astronauts (who have the plan to be on Mars). "Be on Mars" to them and other earth dwellers right now is not attained yet, but it is attainable. In the same token, the NEP is attainable to us -- it is already attained by Ariyans. Regards, Tep ======= 53652 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:27am Subject: Path & Fruit upasaka_howard Hi, Jon, James, and all - It seem to me, as I read the suttas, that the situation is as follows: A worldling who has studied the teachings of the Buddha, who has taken refuge in the three jewels in his/her heart, and who has commenced the serious practice of the Dhamma and committed himself/herself fully to it has embarked on the path to stream entry. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a stream entrant and then enters upon the path towards once-return. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a once returner and then enters upon the path towards non-return. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a non-returner and then enters upon the path towards full awakening and release. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes an arahant with nothing further to be done except to be a light for others. With metta, Howard P.S. The path of practice is not an instantaneous event, but is a path to be traversed, the fruition of which is a direct experiencing of the unconditioned. In this regard, please see the following from the Nagara Sutta ("The City") of the Samyutta Nikaya: _________________________ "It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous."In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path."Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings." --------------------------------------------- /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53653 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:23am Subject: Reply to Sukinder's Questions -- Part II buddhistmedi... Hi, Sukinder - Sorry for my delay in posting this second (and last) reply to your message # 53440. {Part II, Q&As continue..} >Sukin: Now there is another possible view i.e. that only with the 'calm' of this level of kusala is the mind flexible enough to insight realities. But it seems that this is not what you are referring to, since you stress on `samma samadhi', so I won't comment on this. I think that cittas arise and fall with changing objects all the time. The very fact of this happening and that it does through all six doorways constantly with attachment, is the reason why some see it as dangerous and seek to therefore, develop calm. Now of course, one must first of all 'understand' that lobha is dangerous and what conditions it. This understanding does not stay only theoretical but develops on and on to seeing it more and more often, in `experience'. It is with such an understanding and even further developed, that one then sees the need to withdraw from certain environments and develop concentration. Tep: I am not the kind of fish that can swim in either fresh or salt water. To strictly adhere to the teaching of a single sutta is enough to take my whole life time. On example: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion." [SN XLIV.13] ...................... >Sukin: Anapanasati as a samatha practice of the level of jhana requires such high understanding. To such a person when it is suggested as an object of satipatthana, it does not involve the same dangers as the ones I pointed out above. He must firstly have developed the habit to `keep at it', the breath, with right understanding of the level of samatha, in other words it is natural to `him'. He thus doesn't fall into the trap of lobha and wrong view. He knows lobha and only needs to change the understanding of this from the level of samatha to vipassana. Tep: Now you are talking like an expert in samatha (jhana), that you once labeled as 'dumb' . And what about the objection of breaths as "a concept" ? {Sukin: What good is concentration developed with a concept as object do with regard to any experience of a paramattha dhamma later on?} ........................ >Sukin: For our level of panna, one that is so weak in terms of both samatha and vipassana, we would just end up taking the wrong path. This is why I have said that for those who have heard the Buddhist Teachings and still insist on the need of developing samatha/jhana as a means of development along the path, he will likely end up being neither here nor there. Tep: Are you speculating again, or generalizing from the experiences you had in samatha? ....................... >Sukinder: On the other hand, if we can increase our understanding of vipassana panna starting from the intellectual level, and do not try to "control" esp. with the idea of developing jhana, then going along with our accumulations, there can slowly be development of sati and panna. The hindrance, which is `wanting particular results', does not come in the way. Tep: It would be nicer if you could tell me that what you've said is not just hypothesizing. Have you been able to abandon the five hindrances based on that hypothesis? In other words, have you truthfully experienced the first jhana from such intellectual vipassana understanding? If so, how? ...................... >Sukin: I realize that I haven't expressed myself very clearly. If conditions allow I may write more on another day. ;-) Tep: The wordings are smooth and flowing very well, but you have not been convincing yet. :-)) Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > >(snipped)> > Now there is another possible view i.e. that only with the `calm' of this > level of kusala is the mind flexible enough to insight realities. But it seems that this is not what you are referring to, since you stress on `samma samadhi', so I won't comment on this. > (snipped) 53654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. -- Retoric ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - I noted several times that some questions were "retoric" to you. I don't know what retoric means, but I can sense that it is not good. Perhaps, to you a "retoric question" is insincere, hidden, or tricky. So, Joop, what does retoric mean? Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= > > Joop: Perhaps I reveal a secret now but I'm not a student of Sujin > And a "meaning behind a question" I don't like: questions had to be > straight and I will perceive Nina's ones as straight and not retoric. > > > Joop: No. I know nothing of any origination of rupa and thus not of > nama but that does not bother me: they just happen (Tep, your > question was retoric; but it's my answer) > 53655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q>‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] nilovg Dear Htoo, This may be clearer: there is no thina and middha with kusala citta because these two cetasikas are akusala cetasikas and can, therefore, not accompany any type of kusala citta. Nina. op 17-12-2005 12:18 schreef htootintnaing op htoo.naing@...: > > What I understood according to you (maybe Sarah) is that there is no > thina and middha in kusala because of wise attention or yoniso > manasikaara. I asked if it is wisdom-free will there be thina and > middha. Answer was no because there is wise attention. 53656 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas nilovg Hi Howard and Jon, Howard, you certainly have a point. We can look at Path from different points of view. Here is another view (but I won't go into long discussions now, tomorrow I am practically off line): When we want to know more about something that is real, we can ask: What paramattha dhamma is the Path, is it rupa, citta, cetasika, or nibbaana? Answer: cetasika. Namely: pañña, vitakka cetasika (sammavayaama), etc. All eight are cetasikas. Cetasikas arise with the citta and they fall away together, experiencing the same object, thus, in this respect we can say that the path is momentary. Citta and cetasikas only last for a moment. They can be lokiya or lokuttara. When they are lokiya, mundane, their object is nama or rupa. When they are lokuttara, their object is nibbana. The momentary aspect appeals to me. Little by little we travel the long way with ups and downs. That slight amount of understanding that arises is accumulated and can grow, there is hope! Nina. op 17-12-2005 16:02 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > If I can butt in with some language-use comments: A path is something > to be traversed, and that traversal occurs in stages over a period of time, > and not instantaneously. Thus, to take 'path' to mean "path moment" or "moment > of path consciousness" is an odd use of language. > Now, the terms 'path moment' and 'moment of path consciousness' are, > themselves, perfectly good terms that reference an awakening, a timeless > moment > of realization of nibbana that is associated with the path, occurring along > the way, and which is a high point along the path. But to identify the path > with a path moment seems off the mark to me. It is an identifying of an entire > journey with a single moment of that journey. 53657 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 0:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. -- Retoric ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop - > > I noted several times that some questions were "retoric" to you. I don't know what retoric means, but I can sense that it is not good. Perhaps, to you a "retoric question" is insincere, hidden, or tricky. > > So, Joop, what does retoric mean? Thanks. > > Sincerely, > > Tep Hallo Tep Apology I spelled it wrong but you must be intelligent enough what I meant. 'Retoric'(in dutch), spelled 'rhetoric' (in english) Definition: "Rherorical question: question requiring no answer: a question asked for effect that neither expects nor requires an answer." I can add to it: most times asked with a pedagogical intention: to lead the person who had to answer, to a specific view. Metta Joop 53658 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 0:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > Thanks for the observations and comments. I'll certainly consider your > point. Could I ask you to elaborate a little on why you see the > expression 'path moment' (as used in the post) to be oxymoronic? And > would it make any difference if I said instead 'moment of > path-consciousness'? Thanks. > > Jon I think that Howard has very well explained the reasoning behind my point that "path moment" is oxymoronic. Maybe you have never considered this before? How do "path" and "moment" fit together? Of course, I was approaching the issue in a semantic sense, but Howard picked up on my deeper meaning and elaborated in a dhamma sense. But, to get back to semantics for a bit, I will offer some definitions: Path n 1: a course of conduct; "the path of virtue"; "we went our separate ways"; "our paths in life led us apart"; "genius usually follows a revolutionary path" [syn: way, way of life] 2: a way especially designed for a particular use 3: an established line of travel or access [syn: route, itinerary] 4: a line or route along which something travels or moves; "the hurricane demolished houses in its path"; "the track of an animal"; "the course of the river" [syn: track, course] Moment n 1: a particular point in time; "the moment he arrived the party began" [syn: minute, second, instant] 2: an indefinitely short time; "wait just a moment"; "it only takes a minute"; "in just a bit" [syn: minute, second, bit] 3: at this time; "the disappointments of the here and now"; "she is studying at the moment" [syn: here and now, present moment] 4: having important effects or influence; "decisions of great consequence are made by the president himself"; "virtue is of more moment that security" [syn: consequence, import] [ant: inconsequence] 5: the moment of a couple is the product of its force and the distance between its opposing forces 6: the n-th moment of a distribution is the expected value of the n-th power of the deviations from a fixed value. Oxymoron n : A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist. http://dictionary.reference.com/ Metta, James 53659 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q>‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > This may be clearer: there is no thina and middha with kusala citta because > these two cetasikas are akusala cetasikas and can, therefore, not accompany > any type of kusala citta. > Nina. --------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, It is much more clearer than former explanations. With respect, Htoo Naing 53660 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 594 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Here, the first contemplation is 'the body'. I insert 'the' as body which is contemplated is confined to a specific body and not general. This is conventional term that is 'contemplation on the body'. But when 'body-contemplation' is done it is not 'the word the body' that is to be attended or any other concept that is to be attended but what is to be attended is material qualities / phenomena or ruupa. There are 14 different sections for 'contemplation on the body'. All these have to be ruupa or naama where the mind (satipatthaana) has to attend at. These 14 sections will fit into 261 frequencies. They are 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' These have not to be assumed as the programs of practice. This is for description and sharing of the matter that exist behind 'contemplation on the body'. The Buddha did preach all these 261 contemplations as 'contemplation on the body' in 'kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana' in Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta in Diigha Nikaaya. For right mindfulness or sammaa-sati to arise the mind has to be at any of these 261 objects or at any of feeling (will be explained later) or consciousness (will be explained later) or dhamma (will be explained later). Otherwise the sati or the mindfulness that has been attending at other objects are not right mindfulness of the Path or Magga-Saccaa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53661 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:47pm Subject: The Buddha's Dependent Origination htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dependent Origination is the doctrine of Buddhism and this particular dhamma do not exist in any other religion except Buddhism. Most Buddhists know D.O very well. It starts with ignorance or avijjaa. It is like, avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaaraa..sa`nkhaara paccayaa vi~n~naanaa.. and so on. Sankhaara have to arise depending on ignorance. But when The Bodhisatta contemplate on these very complex and complicated dhamma it was not the same. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53662 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/17/05 2:20:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Jon, > Howard, you certainly have a point. We can look at Path from different > points of view. > Here is another view (but I won't go into long discussions now, tomorrow I > am practically off line): > When we want to know more about something that is real, we can ask: What > paramattha dhamma is the Path, is it rupa, citta, cetasika, or nibbaana? > Answer: cetasika. Namely: pañña, vitakka cetasika (sammavayaama), etc. All > eight are cetasikas. > Cetasikas arise with the citta and they fall away together, experiencing the > same object, thus, in this respect we can say that the path is momentary. > Citta and cetasikas only last for a moment. > They can be lokiya or lokuttara. When they are lokiya, mundane, their object > is nama or rupa. When they are lokuttara, their object is nibbana. > The momentary aspect appeals to me. Little by little we travel the long way > with ups and downs. That slight amount of understanding that arises is > accumulated and can grow, there is hope! > Nina. ======================== I don't believe that the path that the Buddha spoke of (in the Sutta Pitaka) is a paramattha dhamma any more than is the tipitaka, or dependent origination, or impermanence, or not-self, or the Buddha himself for that matter. But they are, none of them, imagined, and they are, all of them, incredibly important. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53663 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati. lbidd2 James: "You must be able to trust your own experience- there is no other way to reach nibbana. No one from the outside is going to give it to you. Texts and teachers can guide but ultimately we have to depend on ourselves." Hi James, I just meant I've been known to make a mistake once in a while. On the other hand, if I trusted experience I would have to be something other than experience. What would that be? Thanks for the link re. paranimmitavasavati. I think I would translate this as "those who have the power of higher dignity", but I wouldn't bank on it. Larry 53664 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I realize that I have not yet replied to your last message. But there are two questions concerning this post of yours that I must ask first. 1. Your title is : 'The Buddha's Dependent Origination'. Did the Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong to him? 2. You wrote : 'Most Buddhists know D.O very well'. Do they know the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The Dependent Origination is the doctrine of Buddhism and this > particular dhamma do not exist in any other religion except Buddhism. > > Most Buddhists know D.O very well. It starts with ignorance or > avijjaa. > > It is like, > > avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaaraa..sa`nkhaara paccayaa vi~n~naanaa.. and > so > on. > > Sankhaara have to arise depending on ignorance. > > But when The Bodhisatta contemplate on these very complex and > complicated dhamma it was not the same. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 53665 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:38pm Subject: [dsg] Why a Tipitaka and is the Vinaya 'just rules'? (was Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, > ... Dear Sarah Sarah: " At a quick glance, I don't see any conflict and Bimala Law (to his credit) relies on the commentaries and ancient Sinhalese chronicles for his research. He also wrote the biography that some of us have on Buddhaghosa- The life and Work of Buddhaghosa." Joop: I'm glad to hear that. It was about your remark: S: "In the commentary to the Vinaya it's stressed that 'the word of the Buddha' is 'uniform in sentiment' as found in the Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma, i.e in the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma." And that the correct order of the Tipitaka is: V; S; A. Perhaps I was not explicit enough. I meant: there are two way to look at different parts of the Tipitaka. One is the "traditional" one: every word of the Tipitaka is literally and physically spoken by the Buddha (some traditionalists accept that the Kathavatthu was compiled by Moggaliputta Tissa) Second is the "historical" one in which the Tipitaka has older and younger parts; some parts literally spoken by the Buddha and older parts composed by groups of monks after the passing away of the Buddha: a process of centuries. Sarah: "I haven't seen anything in either account … to suggest anything Buddhaghosa wrote was a 'mythical description'" Joop: Sorry, I thought you remembered to what topic I was referring: that the simple modest supposition of the Buddha that the Buddha Sasana would last only 500 years was changed in a prophecy and was made ten times longer to 5000 years as a result of (in my eyes, I know you will not like this term) magic, see my messages #52121 and #52125) Sarah: "In another thread (reflections for Tep2), I'm puzzled by some of your comments on rupa such as 'we can not know 'matter' as such but only make theories about it, and the theory about 28 rupas is a useful theory IF...' etc. I'm also puzzled by the rest of your comments after this one such as how 'in the Suttas quotes about 'the eye' etc are only to explain us, not to make an reality-illusion of what we see.' The way I see it, rupa is not about theory, but about what is being seen right now, heard right now, touched right now and so on. These are very 'real' dhammas which can be directly known. There can be awareness of any of these dhammas now. If it weren't possible, there'd be no point in having the theory at all. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, Joop. Joop: Partly , I think. When you say "rupa is not about theory", I say: that's not what I meant, I meant a 'theory about rupa" Maybe, but I think you have not misunderstood and that I simply have another opinion about the base-concept of Abhidhamma: that there are two realities and that nama and rupa are both, but different ultimate realities. Indeed the dhammas can be directly known: that's a proof that the theory is correct. Sarah: "I think all the teachings are very, very practical and only concerned with what can be directly known at this moment." Joop: yes, all the Teachings of the Buddha, but not all text of commentaries: these are partly scholastic, to say it nice. Metta Joop 53666 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:46pm Subject: Constructive Destruction ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Any mental Attraction induces a Non-Satisfied Urge! Friends, when one regards this eye, which actually indeed is impermanent, as transient: that is a quite right view. When one regards this ear, which really is a passing thing, as fleeting: that is a quite right view. When one regards this nose, which also is temporary, as transient: that is right view. When one regards this tongue, which also is non-lasting, as transient: that is a quite right view. When one regards this body, which is inconstant, as transitory: that is surely a right view. When one regards this mind, which actually also is ephemeral, as momentary: that too is a quite accurate view. Seeing these fading phenomena rightly, one develops dispassion & disgust! With the gradual destruction of delight, comes the full elimination of lust. With the gradual destruction of lust, comes the full elimination of delight. With the complete elimination of both delight & lust, the mind is said to be well released... Comments: The real prison is not physical & outside, but mental & inside! The released mind do not want anything, need anything, seek anything. The released mind do not yearn, hunt, crave, or hanker after anything. Being thus without urge, thirst & hunger, such mind is entirely stilled ... This serene tranquillity is a bliss, freedom & peace not of this world !!! Final Freedom... Yeah! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 142 Section 35: On The 6 senses. The Destruction of Delight!: 156-7. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 53667 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop - > > There are some subtle change in Jon's words this time that I have > found agreeable. So I am going to defend Jon for him. (Of course, I am not his attorney!) > Hallo Tep Good you defend Jon, that makes things clear. I presume it are also your ideas? I will not repeat the remarks of James and Howard that the combination of the words "path" and "moment" is a bit strange, but say something on your NASA arriving at Mars simile. Tep: "The Path is VERY relevant to worldlings as Mars is to the NASA scientists and astronauts (who have the plan to be on Mars). "Be on Mars" to them and other earth dwellers right now is not attained yet, but it is attainable. In the same token, the NEP is attainable to us - - it is already attained by Ariyans." Joop: The problem is not "Be on Mars" but "How to get to Mars": leaving our planet is the most difficult. Not the one step called NEP is difficult, but the long journey gradual making more and more perfect the eight aspect of the NEP. In your (and Jon's) theory the Path-moment takes place after getting streamenterer. So a little question to you: how to get streamenterer, is that possible without any "right view" , …., "right concentration"? And Tep, what surprises me: in another message to me you stress the importance of "the present moment" and now something happening in the far future ("The Path" according your theory) is relevant; isn't that strange? To me the Path is relevant because I had to do it now. I have written is already several times but I do it again: I will not study and not discuss what can happen after getting streamenterer: getting streamenterer is good enough for me. Metta Joop 53668 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:12am Subject: Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination htootintnaing Dear Tep, This topic is eye-catching. This is just initiation of my next coming Dhamma Thread posts on D.O. But I am still on sammaa-sati and after which there will be sammaa-samaadhi. Then D.O would follow in Dhamma Thread. Please see below for the reason that I post this message and my answer to your questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - I realize that I have not yet replied to your last message. But there are two questions concerning this post of yours that I must ask first. 1. Your title is : 'The Buddha's Dependent Origination'. Did the Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong to him? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before I answer the question I must say that you will be looking forward to 'Direct Answer', which will not always be possible depending on the questions, the situations, the context, the time, the place, the audience, the level of wisdom of the audience and many other factors. Q. Did the Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong to him? A. No. Not. But I have to say more. Not now as it is not your question. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 2. You wrote : 'Most Buddhists know D.O very well'. Do they know the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well? Regards, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Q. Do they (most Buddhists) know the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well? A. No. Not. I have to say more. But as they are not the question you ask then I will not be saying here in this reply. As both questions are no and have negative responses then you might be thinking on why I posted this. Possibly my heading might have been thought as rubbish. Hoping that I have answered directly. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53669 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 595 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' Aanaapaanassati or contemplation on breathing has 15 fequencies for the mindfulness to attend to. They are a) 4 for 'own physical body' b) 4 for 'others' physical bodies' c) 4 for 'both own body and others' body' d) 1 for origination e) 1 for dissolution f) 1 for both origination and dissolution ---------------------------------------- ++15 contemplation on the body 4 things that are contemplated are all ruupas. 1. There are ruupas arising and falling away while knowing there are many many many. 2. There are ruupa arising and falling away while knowing there are many. 3. There are ruupa arising and falling away while almost each and every ruupa that arise and fall away in connection with breathing are noticed. 4. There are ruupa arising and falling away while so call physical breath or its activities become well calm. While ruupa are arising their causes of arising are also being contemplated. While they are not arising their causes of dissolution are being contemplated. While they are arising their causes and dissolution are being contemplated. Throughout the process of breathing arising ruupas are being perceived and contemplated and noticed and known with full energry, full understanding and alert mindfulness while attachment and aversion, [which otherwise can arise at 5 clinging aggregates if these contemplations are not done properly] are being eliminated at least at the very time of seeing ruupa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53670 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:33am Subject: origin of right view matheesha333 Dear friends, Got a bit excited be seeing this - the origin of right view (get a life?!). Please see below. for your viewing pleasure...I wonder what clear knowing is - sampajanna? ..if so what exactly is that? metta Matheesha -------------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XLV.1 Avijja Sutta Ignorance Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern. In an unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration arises. "Clear knowing is the leader in the attainment of skillful qualities, followed by conscience & concern. In a knowledgeable person, immersed in clear knowing, right view arises. In one of right view, right resolve arises. In one of right resolve, right speech... In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration arises." 53671 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! Joop jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > ...Dear Azita I have not yet thanked you for your message #53343, in which you described your Dhamma-study. It's a honest description. You wrote about listening MP3, that are talks of and discussions with K Sujin? I think you already seen the teachings of Sujin don't resonate very loud in me; I think that no problem as long people in DSG are clear in their intentions. With metta Joop 53672 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (Jon, and anyone ) - I think your counter message about "be on Mars" and the "how to get to Mars" is relevant, and your questions for me are not rhetoric. {:>)} >Joop: The problem is not "Be on Mars" but "How to get to Mars": leaving our planet is the most difficult. Not the one step called NEP is difficult, but the long journey gradual making more and more perfect the eight aspect of the NEP. Tep: Good analogy! But may I suggest to you that there are TWO problems: both 'To Be On Mars' and 'How To Get To Mars' are important and interdependent. In the same token, we must first of all things be clear with saddha and right view of the good Buddhists (who are not Ariyans yet) that we have the mission possible to be on the Path of the Ariyans. With the well-defined objective and clear goal (clear knowledge of the goal, the NEP), we will proceed to reach for the goal by 'practicing according to the NEP' -- that's to me the "how to get there". And I believe that MN 117 is the best sutta that describes the "how to get there" very clearly. Tep: By the way, it is pedagogical to me how one may define "path" in one way or more, or even defining "the path" as "the moment". Defining-this-defining-that is just a labeling game of philosophers. .................. >Joop: o a little question to you: how to get streamenterer, is that possible without any "right view" , …., "right concentration"? And Tep, what surprises me: in another message to me you stress the importance of "the present moment" and now something happening in the far future ("The Path" according your theory) is relevant; isn't that strange? Tep: dear philosopher Joop, I think my above comment answers both questions of yours. ................ >Joop: I have written is already several times but I do it again: I will not study and not discuss what can happen after getting streamenterer: getting streamenterer is good enough for me. Tep: Yes sir, whatever you say, sir. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Joop - > > > > There are some subtle change in Jon's words this time that I have > > found agreeable. So I am going to defend Jon for him. (Of course, I > am not his attorney!) > > > Hallo Tep > > Good you defend Jon, that makes things clear. I presume it are also > your ideas? > I will not repeat the remarks of James and Howard that the > combination of the words "path" and "moment" is a bit strange, but > say something on your NASA arriving at Mars simile. > (snipped) 53673 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:49am Subject: Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > This topic is eye-catching. This is just initiation of my next coming > Dhamma Thread posts on D.O. Dear Htoo A good initiative of you. I hope you can bring your matter on a way that this thread can give a good discussion. Tep already had some questions and I want to bring two topics to the thread on a later moment, after you treally started. The two are - DO over three lifetimes (the traditional model) and/or in one lifetime as proposed by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - A wrong (in the West popular) notion that DO means 'everything is dependent of everything' (NewAge/holism) Metta Joop 53674 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > > As both questions are no and have negative responses then you might > be thinking on why I posted this. Possibly my heading might have > been thought as rubbish. > > Hoping that I have answered directly. > Tep: Yes, Htoo. Yes, you did -- for the first time. It is like a meteor that only visits our planet once. :-)) But the title is not rubbish -- it is just controversial because it came from you who always cautions people about "no self". Thank you for the direct and straightforward reply, friend. Warm regards, Tep =========== 53675 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha and other DSG friends - Thank you for the question on the "origin of right view". We members of DSG have not asked enough questions about right views, or right understanding to some, concerning what factors/dhammas condition right view to arise. Several believe in simultaneous arising of all eight factors of the NEP (the "moment"). But this sutta shows that sequential arising of the NEP factors is NOT wrong prior to the final moment. > > Math.: > > Got a bit excited be seeing this - the origin of right view (get a > life?!). Please see below. for your viewing pleasure...I wonder what > clear knowing is - sampajanna? ..if so what exactly is that? > > metta > > Matheesha > -------------------------- > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.1 > Avijja Sutta > Ignorance > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he > addressed the monks, "Monks!" > "Yes, lord," the monks responded. > > The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the > attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & > lack of concern. In an unknowledgeable person, immersed in > ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve > arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong > speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... > In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, > wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong > concentration arises. > > "Clear knowing is the leader in the attainment of skillful > qualities, followed by conscience & concern. In a knowledgeable > person, immersed in clear knowing, right view arises. In one of > right view, right resolve arises. In one of right resolve, right > speech... In one of right speech, right action... In one of right > action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right > effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of > right mindfulness, right concentration arises." > Tep: You asked : I wonder what clear knowing is - sampajanna? ..if so what exactly is that? Tep: The missing clue is the original Pali word. Now let's find that meaning given by Prof. U Ko Lay of Yangon. "Bhikkhus, Ignorance, avijja is the forerunner of the arising of demeritorious factors; lack of moral shame, ahirika, and lack of moral dread, anottappa, are only its followers,(note 1) . Bhikkhus, one who is ignorant and lacking in wisdom would hold Wrong View. In one who holds Wrong View there would arise Wrong Thinking, one who has Wrong Thinking, would utter Wrong Speech; one who utter Wrong Speech would take Wrong Action: one who takes Wrong Action would engage in Wrong Livelihood; one who engages in Wrong Livelihood would make Wrong Effort; one who makes Wrong Effort would practise Wrong Mindfulness: one who practises Wrong Mindfulness would develop Wrong Concentration." "Bhikkhus, knowledge(note 2), vijja is the forerunner of the arising of meritorious factors; sense of moral shame, hiri and sense of moral dread, ottappa, are only its followers(note 3). Bhikkhus, one who is endowed with knowledge and is wise would hold Right View(note 4) ; in one who holds Right View, there would arise Right Thinking: one who has Right Thinking would utter Right Speech; one who utters Right Speech would takes Right Action; one who takes Right Action would engage in Right Livelihood: one who engages in Right Livelihood would make Right Effort; one who makes Right Effort would practise Right Mindfulness; one who practises Right Mindfulness would develop Right Concentration." [ End of the Avijia Sutta] Translator's Notes: ------------------- 1. its followers: According to the Commentary, Avijja, ahirika and anottappa arise together: ignorance is the prime factor giving decisive support to ahirika and anottappa which play secondary roles. 2. Knowledge, vijja: Here, it is defined as knowledge that actions done rightly or wrongly inevitably have results. This knowledge also serves as a condition for the arising of meritorious factors. Thus one who is endowed with vijja knows what is evil and what is good; he thus avoids wrong deeds such as killing, stealing, etc. and engages himself only in meritorious deeds that will lead to good resultant effects. 3. Its followers: According to Commentary, Vijja, hiri and ottapa arise together; Vijja is the prime factor giving decisive support to hiri and ottapa which play secondary roles. [end of notes] ..................... Tep: I think you have found your answer in the above translation, it is "vijja". The causal dhamma that supports right view is "wisdom" (knowledge, or "vijja") but I think it is a "mundane" wisdom that knows kusala/akusala, not in the yatha-bhuta sense. But which level is the right view in this Avijja sutta? -- obviously, mundane right view in the sense of not the right view of a noble disciple. I have discussed this subject with Nina and Sarah several times before. Of course, my understanding and explanations to them have not been accepted. Regards, Tep 53676 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:06am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop (Jon, and anyone ) - > Hallo Tep, Jon, all I just wrote this morning that Theravadins don't have humour; but you prove that that is not correct. If you have proven more, I don't know. I first study MN 117 and wait for a reaction of Jon, who started this with his briskly statements. BTW, I'm still interested in your reaction on my frame of reference of 16 (vipassana-meditation) nan's in which nanaruapariccheda-nana is the first (cf #53598 and #53642) Metta Joop 53677 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - You wrote : "BTW, I'm still interested in your reaction on my frame of reference of 16 (vipassana-meditation) nan's in which nanaruapariccheda-nana is the first (cf #53598 and #53642). Tep: Look, Joop, I am not an expert in namarupa paricchedanana. Even a world-renowned scholar like Nina admitted that it was not easy to know (penetrate) nama & rupa : >Nina(# 53598): > Kh Sujin has explained this to us many times, but I find it a >difficult subject. I recently wrote about this, but I am just repeating >what I learnt, without really penetrating the truth of nama and rupa, >without really knowing what the mind-door is. Hope you understand. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > Hallo Tep, Jon, all > > I just wrote this morning that Theravadins don't have humour; but you > prove that that is not correct. > If you have proven more, I don't know. I first study MN 117 and wait > for a reaction of Jon, who started this with his briskly statements. > (snipped) 53678 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! matheesha333 Hi Tep, So the origin of right view seems to be 'vijja'. How does vijja arise? Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. --------------- M: So that seems to suggest that samatha and vipassana is the key to vijja. Partially developed 8 fold path factors must become Right, with the development of samatha and vipassana. (as per yuganadda sutta/AN) metta Matheesha 53679 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:59am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas. Tep's Reply to Jon buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - [I thought I already sent this message yesterday!] I appreciate your knowledge of the magga as shown below (although other members may not feel the same). :-) >Jon: > > To my understanding, the terms 'noble', 'eightfold' and > 'path' each have specific meanings: > - the 'path' is the path that begins at stream-entry and ends with > arahantship > - it is 'noble' because it refers to the 4 stages of enlightenment, and > is the path of the ariyans > - it is 'eightfold' (Pali: attha-anga, literally, eight-factored) > because it has eight factors or components, these being the factors > (i.e., mental factors, or cetasikas) that are present at each moment of > path consciousness. > > So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. > Tep: I am in agreement with you here about the meanings of 'noble', 'path', and 'eightfold' as experienced by a 'noble disciple'. > Jon: > To put this in the context of something that you and I have been > discussing in another thread, the NEP is a description of a > (supramundane) path moment, rather than of the actual practice of the > development of insight leading to that attainment. > Tep: IF you label the Path knowledge as attained by a noble disciple as "supramundane/lokuttara, then I also see that it is NOT the "actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment", because such Path knowledge is already attained. >Jon: > Now with all the foregoing in mind, let me suggest that when Right > Concentration is described in terms of the 4 jhanas, it means that at > the moment of path consciousness the consciousness is experiencing its object (i.e., Nibbana) with a concentration of the intensity of one or other of the 4 jhanas. > Tep: Don't be surprised -- I also agree with you that the right concentration is supported by the other seven "samma" Path factors, and may I add, it is the same as the four rupa-jhana (as defined in DN 22 and other suttas). > Jon: > The same goes for the descriptions of the other 7 path factors; they are descriptions of the momentary effect or function of the factor in question. > Tep: IF what you mean by "momentary effect" as the attainment of each of the seven noble Path factors, then I also see the same conclusion. Why? Because they corresponds to the Path attainment in a noble disciple. The detail may be found in MN 117 and Anupada Sutta, MN 111. > Jon: > As to the actual development of awareness and understanding that leads to the attainment of the first moment of path consciousness (at > stream-entry), this we find dealt with in the Satipatthana Sutta and > numerous other suttas. Tep: To be more precise, may I focus on one very important sutta: MN 117? This sutta clearly explains how to develop each and every Path factors from the level below the "supramundane" attainment. I have written elsewhere about such a process in MN 117, that I believe is "the actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment". >Jon: > Hoping I have managed to explain clearly. I appreciate that this goes directly against your present line of thinking, so I don't expect your agreement, but perhaps we can discuss this general area further. > Tep: On the contrary, I am in total agreement with your above statements. The only point that I am not sure we are in agreement is : what you think of the MN 117 as to its providing the way for worldlings to develop the eight Path factors to the lokuttara level. My point: before the attainment of the supramundane magga factors, each Path factor can be developed jointly (samma-ditthi + samma- vayama + samma-sati running and revolving around the first five Path factors) and sequentailly (samma-ditthi as "forerunner", then samma- sankappa follows, then samma-vaca follows ...) as in MN 117. Respectfully yours, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > I've noticed that in many posts lately you have mentioned the definition > of Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas (in D. 22 and elsewhere) as > support of the need for jhana or samadhi of some level to be developed > in order to attain enlightenment, and I know there are others who share > your view on this. I thought I would make a few comments on this point. > (snipped) 53680 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! jwromeijn Hallo Jon, Tep, James, all Curious how many time the NEP is described in the Sutta Pitaka, I looked at the index of the Samyutta Nikaya. I have not yet read them all, but the Introduction of Bhikkhu Bodhi (even to me an authority) to part V, the Mahavagga is very important for our discussion: "The eightfold path is described by the Buddha as ariya, noble, and this qualification is important. It would be too restrictive to maintain, as some interpreters of early Buddhism have done, that the eightfold path can be practised only by those who are technically ariyapuggalas, noble individuals beginning with the faith-follower. Certainly the Buddha offered the eightfold path to all his disciples who aspired to release from the suffering of samsara, and for this reason he called it the way leading tom cessation of suffering. We might understand the adjective ariya in a broader sense as indicating not only that this is the path followed by the ariyans, but also that this is the path to be practised to arrive at the ariyan state, the state of onward spiritual nobility. The reach the truly ariyan NEP that leads infallibly to Nibbana, one has to start somewhere, and the most reasonable place to start is with the development of the eight path factors in their humbler, more immediately accessible manifestations. The eight path factors are formally defined at 45:8; using stock definitions found elsewhere in the Pali Canon (e.g. at DN II 311 en MN III 251-52). But these definitions scarcely indicate how the pathis to be developed as a whole. On this question we do not find detailed instructions made explicit anywhere in the Mahavagga, and thus the 'how-to-manual' of the practice had to be pieced together from various sources. We can start with the Buddha's statement that each path factor emerges from its predecessor (45:1) and use this as a key for sketching a picture of how the path unfolds in actual experience. ….." (Translation of the SN, page 1494-1495) It goes on some pages further, perhaps tomorrow I have energy to type these also. Metta Joop 53681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (Joop, Jon, James, Nina)- It is good that we have started another 'conversation'. >Math. : So the origin of right view seems to be 'vijja'. Tep: The 'vijja' in SN XLV.1, Avijja Sutta, is not the Ariyan's vijja. As I already observed in # 53675 as follows : > >Tep: The causal dhamma that supports right view is "wisdom" (knowledge, or "vijja") but I think it is a "mundane" wisdom that knows kusala/akusala, not in the yatha-bhuta sense. But which level is the right view in this Avijja sutta? -- obviously, mundane right view in the sense of not the right view of a noble disciple. Tep: Before going on, I like to emphasize that 'vijja', the opposite to 'avijja', has several levels or stages in the development. This is similar to 'panna' and 'sammaditthi' that are not limited to the Ariyans only (according to the suttas I have studied). Maybe it is a reason why commentators coined up the term "mundane right view" : i.e. simply to separate the the non-ariyan levels from that of the Ariyans. The Buddha did not use 'lokiya samma-ditthi' (according to my sutta research) because when he talked about 'ariya-savakko' along with 'samma-ditthi', or 'samma-sati', etc., it was already clear about the level of the noble disciple's attainment. >Math. : So that seems to suggest that samatha and vipassana is the key to vijja. Partially developed 8 fold path factors must become Right, with the development of samatha and vipassana. (as per yuganadda sutta/AN) Tep: IF it is the Ariyans' vijja at the time ("moment") when all the eight magga factors arise, then you're right that "samatha and vipassana is the key to vijja". See MN 149. "For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. [end quote] Tep : I am sorry to again (and again) quote a sutta that you're already familiar with. But I always make an extra effort to make things extra clear. However, there is a big disadvantage -- most people just ignore the quoted sutta and my interpretation of it. {:-<) Regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > So the origin of right view seems to be 'vijja'. > > How does vijja arise? > > (snipped) 53682 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop - >> Tep: Look, Joop, I am not an expert in namarupa paricchedanana. > Even a world-renowned scholar like Nina admitted that it was not easy > to know (penetrate) nama & rupa : > > Hallo Tep I understand and I had to accept that Nina is some time off list Joop 53683 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:48am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! buddhistmedi... Hello Joop - I am interested in any view, thought, analysis, or conclusion you may draw from Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on the NEP which you have quoted. Is my understanding of the NEP still incorrect as you earlier thought? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Jon, Tep, James, all > > Curious how many time the NEP is described in the Sutta Pitaka, I > looked at the index of the Samyutta Nikaya. I have not yet read them > all, but the Introduction of Bhikkhu Bodhi (even to me an authority) > to part V, the Mahavagga is very important for our discussion: > > "The eightfold path is described by the Buddha as ariya, noble, and > this qualification is important. It would be too restrictive to > maintain, as some interpreters of early Buddhism have done, that the > eightfold path can be practised only by those who are technically > ariyapuggalas, noble individuals beginning with the faith-follower. > Certainly the Buddha offered the eightfold path to all his disciples > who aspired to release from the suffering of samsara, and for this > reason he called it the way leading tom cessation of suffering. We > might understand the adjective ariya in a broader sense as indicating > not only that this is the path followed by the ariyans, but also that > this is the path to be practised to arrive at the ariyan state, the > state of onward spiritual nobility. The reach the truly ariyan NEP > that leads infallibly to Nibbana, one has to start somewhere, and the > most reasonable place to start is with the development of the eight > path factors in their humbler, more immediately accessible > manifestations. > The eight path factors are formally defined at 45:8; using stock > definitions found elsewhere in the Pali Canon (e.g. at DN II 311 en > MN III 251-52). But these definitions scarcely indicate how the > pathis to be developed as a whole. On this question we do not find > detailed instructions made explicit anywhere in the Mahavagga, and > thus the 'how-to-manual' of the practice had to be pieced together > from various sources. We can start with the Buddha's statement that > each path factor emerges from its predecessor (45:1) and use this as > a key for sketching a picture of how the path unfolds in actual > experience. ….." > (Translation of the SN, page 1494-1495) > 53684 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! matheesha333 Hi Tep, and others, Thanks for pointing out MN 149 - i wasnt aware that it contained such a wealth of information. I agree with you in that there has to be prior development of each of the 8 fold path factors and there has to be a start at a mundane level. I just wanted to quote from the MN 149. It suggests that development of the path means development of samatha-vipassana (which is the first time i've seen it expressed quite like that): ----------- When he develops the Noble Eightfold path, the four establishments of mindfulness get completed. So also, the four right exertions, the four super-normal powers, the five mental faculties, the five powers and the seven enlightenment factors by development get completed. The two things calm and insight proceed to him yoked. Whatever things should be dispelled knowing deeply, those are known from the depth and dispelled. Whatever things should be developed knowing deeply, those are known from the depth and developed. Whatever things should be realized knowing deeply, those are known from the depth and realized. Bhikkhus, what things should be thoroughly known from the depth? The reply is the five holding masses, such as the holding mass of matter, the holding mass of feelings, the holding mass of perceptions, the holding mass of determinations and the holding mass of consciousness. Bhikkhus, what things should be dispelled knowing from the depth? Ignorance and the craving `to be' should be dispelled knowing deeply. Bhikkhus, what things should be developed knowing deeply? Calm and insight should be developed knowing deeply. Bhikkhus, what things should be realized knowing deeply? Knowledge and release should be realized knowing deeply. -------------------- M: This seems to suggest that right view actually arises immediately before release/vimutti is attained, ie immediately (seconds?) before someone becomes a sotapanna. At that stage s/he also aquires knowledge and vision of release. So what do we need to see to have vijja: (this is another avijja sutta) ------------------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.80 Avijja Sutta Ignorance Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." "What is that one thing?" "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." [1] "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes (all objects) as something separate. [2] "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact -- experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the ear as something separate... "He sees the nose as something separate... "He sees the tongue as something separate... "He sees the body as something separate... "He sees the intellect as something separate. He sees ideas as something separate. He sees intellect-consciousness as something separate. He sees intellect-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact -- experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too he sees as something separate. "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." --------------------------------------------------------- Notes 1. In other words, ignorance is so fundamental that it has to be attacked directly. [Go back] 2. Aññato: literally, "as other." The Commentary explains this as "in another way" or "differently" from the way ordinary beings view things, but that does not fit with the syntax of the Pali, nor does it really answer the monk's question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- vised: Wed 10-Dec-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-080.html M: My understanding of what is meant by 'seperately' is that each have to be seen as distinct entities. This is possible through deep vipassana/investigation of the dhammas. To see them seperately and not alltogether as we do normally is the crux of practice. This is where concentration comes in, why a calm mind is important to grasp very subtle dhammas. Once you can start seeing them seperately, you will begin to see their impermanance. Then from that, their unsatisfactoriness. Because you are seeing them seperately and seeing them arising and passing away you will also see that there is no being inside, and sakkaya ditti/self view will be lost. Sorry for the preaching tone, I get carried away sometimes. :) metta Matheesha 53685 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and all) - I am discussing the Vijja-bhagiya Sutta now. My understanding of this sutta is "when discernment is developed", then "ignorance is abandoned" and the final supreme 'vijja' arises. This vijja is the clear knowing of the Arahant -- the full understanding that eradicates ignorance and all defilements. It is clearly not the same 'vijja' (in the other sutta you quoted) that conditions hiri-ottappa to grow and supports right view in worldlings. I am ready to be corrected. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > So the origin of right view seems to be 'vijja'. > > How does vijja arise? > > > > Vijja-bhagiya Sutta > A Share in Clear Knowing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? > Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). > "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. > > "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. > > --------------- > > M: So that seems to suggest that samatha and vipassana is the key to vijja. > > Partially developed 8 fold path factors must become Right, with the > development of samatha and vipassana. (as per yuganadda sutta/AN) > 53686 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 0:47pm Subject: Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: Dear Htoo A good initiative of you. I hope you can bring your matter on a way that this thread can give a good discussion. Tep already had some questions and I want to bring two topics to the thread on a later moment, after you treally started. The two are - DO over three lifetimes (the traditional model) and/or in one lifetime as proposed by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - A wrong (in the West popular) notion that DO means 'everything is dependent of everything' (NewAge/holism) Metta Joop ------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, The posts are coming. Tep asked two questions and I answered him to his satisfaction. I just posted 'The Buddha's D.O'. This post is definitely caught up by at least Tep and now you, Joop. D.O posts are coming but I posted this one for simple reason. D.O is the same anywhere everywhere and whereever else. I just said 'The Buddha's D.O'. Actually it was The Bodhisatta Saddhattha's D.O. That is it arose just before attainment of asavakkhaya ~naana and Sabba~n~nuta ~naana. I said almost all Buddhists know. I do not mean 'Almost all Buddhists understand D.O'. And this will not even be at theory level. But what I said is 'the script D.O'. The script says 'Avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaara, sa`nkhaara paccayaa vi~n~naana, vi~n~naana paccayaa naamaruupa.m, naamaruupa paccayaa salaayatana, salaayatana paccayaa phasso.... etc' But Bodhisatta Siddhattha's examination on D.O was different even though D.O has to be the same anywhere, everywhere, at any time because it is true dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53687 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 0:49pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! buddhatrue Hi Joop and ALL, Thanks for offering these notes from BB. I just have some off-the- cuff comments: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Jon, Tep, James, all > > Curious how many time the NEP is described in the Sutta Pitaka, I > looked at the index of the Samyutta Nikaya. I have not yet read them > all, but the Introduction of Bhikkhu Bodhi (even to me an authority) > to part V, the Mahavagga is very important for our discussion: > > "The eightfold path is described by the Buddha as ariya, noble, and > this qualification is important. It would be too restrictive to > maintain, as some interpreters of early Buddhism have done, that the > eightfold path can be practised only by those who are technically > ariyapuggalas, noble individuals beginning with the faith- follower. > Certainly the Buddha offered the eightfold path to all his disciples > who aspired to release from the suffering of samsara, and for this > reason he called it the way leading tom cessation of suffering. We > might understand the adjective ariya in a broader sense as indicating > not only that this is the path followed by the ariyans, but also that > this is the path to be practised to arrive at the ariyan state, the > state of onward spiritual nobility. James: Hmmmm...seems like BB here is a DSG veteran, with all these suppositions of arguments and counter-arguments to the NEP. ;-)) But, in reality, he was not (to my knowledge). So we can only assume that the amount of debate he has encountered over this issue during his reign of dhamma scholar supreme. The pressure he has encountered must be unbearable!! Imagine everyone all over the world!!--- it is no wonder he suffers from constant headaches!!! The reach the truly ariyan NEP > that leads infallibly to Nibbana, one has to start somewhere, and the > most reasonable place to start is with the development of the eight > path factors in their humbler, more immediately accessible > manifestations. > The eight path factors are formally defined at 45:8; using stock > definitions found elsewhere in the Pali Canon (e.g. at DN II 311 en > MN III 251-52). But these definitions scarcely indicate how the > pathis to be developed as a whole. On this question we do not find > detailed instructions made explicit anywhere in the Mahavagga, and > thus the 'how-to-manual' of the practice had to be pieced together > from various sources. We can start with the Buddha's statement that > each path factor emerges from its predecessor (45:1) and use this as > a key for sketching a picture of how the path unfolds in actual > experience. ….." > (Translation of the SN, page 1494-1495) James: BB is a scholar supreme that, especially in this age of spiritual darkness, deserves our respect and gratitude (imo). It is not easy to reconstruct a living legend from dead words and phrases in a dead language...but BB has done his best. There is no reason to throw ourselves down in prostrate to him (like some do for KS) but there is every reason to show and acknowledge appreciatiation to him...(rather than sending him bad thoughts which causes him to have many headaches...) > > It goes on some pages further, perhaps tomorrow I have energy to type > these also. James: Joop, my humble suggestion is that you do what you feel you can do and do what you feel is beneficial. As for me, I will be watching and waiting. > > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James 53688 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 0:54pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 336- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[f] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] > > Sloth and torpor can arise together with wrong view, diììhi, and > in this case they accompany lobha-múla-citta which is associated > with wrong view and prompted. Sloth and torpor can arise together > with conceit, måna, and in this case they accompany lobha- múlacitta which > is without wrong view and prompted(3). Sloth and > torpor which arise with lobha-múla-citta may be accompanied by > pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. > > Sloth and torpor can arise together with envy (isså), stinginess > (macchariya) or regret (kukkucca) which, one at a time, can > accompany dosa-múla-citta, and in that case the dosa-múla-citta > is prompted. The accompanying feeling is unpleasant feeling. > *** > 3) Four of the eight types of lobha-múla-citta are associated with wrong > view, diììhi, and four are without wrong view. Conceit can accompany > lobha-múla-citta without wrong view, but this is not always so. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, This is investigative question. 'Do thiina and middha arise with envy, stinginess, and worry when the mind is not that active?' My opinion is that soth and torpot can arise with dosa but not with issaa, macchariya, and kukkucca. Am I wrong? This is just personal opinion. With respect, Htoo Naing 53689 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:01pm Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! Conclusion ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and all) - Hi, Matheesha - I am glad that we see the most important points the same way via the excellent MN 149. > Math.: I agree with you in that there has to be prior development of each of the 8 fold path factors and there has to be a start at a mundane level. .... It suggests that development of the path means development of samatha-vipassana (which is the first time i've seen it expressed quite like that). Tep: Yes, it all starts with appropriate guarding of the mind such that restraint of the sensing media (salayatana) in the present moment leads to the development of the eightfold factors. Then the remaining bodhipakkhiya dhammas become perfected. The two things, samatha- vipassana(calm and insights), are yoked together while the remaining bodhipakkhiya dhammas are further developed to the final states. Then, of course, tanha and avijja along with all defilements are readicated ! [Easily said than understood.] .......................... >Math: This seems to suggest that right view actually arises immediately before release/vimutti is attained, ie immediately (seconds?) before someone becomes a sotapanna. At that stage s/he also aquires knowledge and vision of release. Tep: According to MN 117, before samma-vimutti(right release) there are samma-nana (right knowledges). Samma-vimutti is at the Arahant level. "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten. [MN 117] Tep: The Visuddhimagga explains very clearly what insight knowledges and attainments occur in the Sotapanna (e.g. what kinds of asavas, and fetters , for example, are eliminated by the Sotanna) and the three Ariya levels above. I am not an expert on this subject. :-) Thanks for your comments and sharing of the valuable sutta information and analysis. Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, and others, > > Thanks for pointing out MN 149 - i wasnt aware that it contained such > a wealth of information. > > I agree with you in that there has to be prior development of each of > the 8 fold path factors and there has to be a start at a mundane > level. > > I just wanted to quote from the MN 149. It suggests that development > of the path means development of samatha-vipassana (which is the > first time i've seen it expressed quite like that): > ----------- > > When he develops the Noble Eightfold path, the four establishments of > mindfulness get completed. So also, the four right exertions, the > four super-normal powers, the five mental faculties, the five powers > and the seven enlightenment factors by development get completed. The > two things calm and insight proceed to him yoked. Whatever things > should be dispelled knowing deeply, those are known from the depth > and dispelled. Whatever things should be developed knowing deeply, > those are known from the depth and developed. Whatever things should > be realized knowing deeply, those are known from the depth and > realized. Bhikkhus, what things should be thoroughly known from the > depth? The reply is the five holding masses, such as the holding mass > of matter, the holding mass of feelings, the holding mass of > perceptions, the holding mass of determinations and the holding mass > of consciousness. Bhikkhus, what things should be dispelled knowing > from the depth? Ignorance and the craving `to be' should be dispelled > knowing deeply. Bhikkhus, what things should be developed knowing > deeply? Calm and insight should be developed knowing deeply. > Bhikkhus, what things should be realized knowing deeply? Knowledge > and release should be realized knowing deeply. > > -------------------- > M: This seems to suggest that right view actually arises immediately > before release/vimutti is attained, ie immediately (seconds?) before > someone becomes a sotapanna. At that stage s/he also aquires > knowledge and vision of release. > > So what do we need to see to have vijja: (this is another avijja > sutta) > > ------------------------------- > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.80 > Avijja Sutta > Ignorance > > Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having > bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > to the Blessed One: > "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk > ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" > > "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk > ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." > > "What is that one thing?" > > "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk > ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." [1] > > "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is > abandoned and clear knowing arises?" > > "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are > unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of > attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every > thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees > all themes (all objects) as something separate. [2] > > "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something > separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees > eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence > on eye-contact -- experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as > neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too he sees as something separate. > > "He sees the ear as something separate... > > "He sees the nose as something separate... > > "He sees the tongue as something separate... > > "He sees the body as something separate... > > "He sees the intellect as something separate. He sees ideas as > something separate. He sees intellect-consciousness as something > separate. He sees intellect-contact as something separate. And > whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact -- experienced > either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that > too he sees as something separate. > > "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance > is abandoned and clear knowing arises." > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Notes > 1. In other words, ignorance is so fundamental that it has to be > attacked directly. [Go back] > > 2. Aññato: literally, "as other." The Commentary explains this as "in > another way" or "differently" from the way ordinary beings view > things, but that does not fit with the syntax of the Pali, nor does > it really answer the monk's question. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > vised: Wed 10-Dec-2003 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-080.html > > > M: My understanding of what is meant by 'seperately' is that each > have to be seen as distinct entities. This is possible through deep > vipassana/investigation of the dhammas. To see them seperately and > not alltogether as we do normally is the crux of practice. This is > where concentration comes in, why a calm mind is important to grasp > very subtle dhammas. > > Once you can start seeing them seperately, you will begin to see > their impermanance. Then from that, their unsatisfactoriness. Because > you are seeing them seperately and seeing them arising and passing > away you will also see that there is no being inside, and sakkaya > ditti/self view will be lost. > > Sorry for the preaching tone, I get carried away sometimes. :) > > metta > > Matheesha > 53690 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:02pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 596 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' May you be free from suffering. '15 contemplation on body posture' a) 4 contemplation on own posture b) 4 contemplation on others' posture c) 4 contemplation on both own and others' posture d) 1 contemplation on origination of posture e) 1 contemplation on dissolution of posture f) 1 contemplation on both origination and dissolution Again here the object to be contemplated or attended is ruupa and it is not the idea on posture purely. The instruction is on posture. When the instructions are followed there see rrealities through posture. And the contemplations are all on realities of photthabbaa or touches like pressure, movement, hardness, temperature. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53691 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:12pm Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! buddhatrue Hi Math, This last phrase of yours really struck me: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, and others, > Sorry for the preaching tone, I get carried away sometimes. :) > > metta > > Matheesha > I really don't think that you preach-at least not anymore than any others. BTW, I have been saving a post of yours to me in the back of my mind because I wasn't quite sure how to respond to it. You wrote to me in the near past about some of the clients you have helped, and mentioned one client in particular who was prostituded out by her father to neighborhood men for money. The amount of abuse in this world is shocking and mind-numbing!! Really, I appreciated you reaching out to me, but I didn't know how to respond. One part of me wanted to talk about my abuse to anyone willing to listen, and another part of me didn't want to say a word to anyone. It is a very painful situation. Unless someone has lived throught that type of childhood abuse, they have no idea what it is like or what long-lasting effects it has! Anyway, I want to thank you for offering your support and understanding- though my appreciation is obviously delayed. I have stored what you wrote in my mind, and refer it it often. (I would have written this to you off-list but I sometimes think that that is the coward's way. If I am ever to recover from the abuse I faced, I must be able to stand strong, proud, and by myself.) Metta and deep appreciation, James 53692 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi Joop Thanks for coming in on this thread. Joop wrote: >Jon, thanks for bringing this so straight. It makes things clear and >makes it possible to state I deeply disagree with this interpretation >of the NEP. >Do you realize what your idea means: that for somebody who is not a >streamenterer the (Noble Eightfold) PATH IS NOT YET RELEVANT. > I don't see it this way at all. In explaining the Noble Eightfold Path the Buddha is assuring us that there is a point, namely stream entry, at which a person comes to be (irreversibly) on the path that leads to final enlightenment. Other parts of the teaching, such as the Satipatthana Sutta, talk about the practice that leads to the gaining of the path. As we know, the practice that leads to the attainment of the NEP is available to everyone -- this is surely one of the main messages of the Satipatthana Sutta. Thus, by reading the NEP as referring to the path from stream-entry to arahantship, we are not in a any sense limiting the scope of the teaching on the development of insight that leads to the attaining of the NEP. >I will not try to use Sutta-texts to show this idea is not correct. >But I'm sure the Buddha has never said: be patient, wait till things >happen and then you got streamenterer and then in one split second >you've gone the Path. > The Buddha said that the path is to be attained in the way described in the Satipatthana Sutta and other suttas. The attainment of the path, when it happens, does so in a single mind-door moment. (This of course reflects the momentary nature of dhammas; virtually anything that happens does so in a single mind-moment.) >In fact you say: the Path is not a path. > Not really. I say that, according to my reading, the Noble Eightfold Path refers to the stages of enlightenment beginning with stream entry. The moments of insight prior to that, leading to stream entry, are neither 'noble' nor are they accompanied by all eight factors. They are referred to in the suttas as satipatthana, vipassana bhavana, panna, and various other ways; they are referred to in the commentaries as mundane path moments. You may say this is not the conventional idea of a path, but then there are many terms used in the teachings that carry a meaning different to their conventional one ;-)) >Now you have tried to >explain 'right concentration' in your way of thinking, I'm curious >how you will do it with one of the other (seven) factors: "right >livelihood"; I'm afraid that's in your system not "livelihood" at all >and not about ethical behavior, every day again, at all. > The 3 factors of right speech, action and livelihood are restraints from wrong speech, action and livelihood. So right livelihood is about a moment of restraint from the doing of wrong livelihood. This may not be the same as what you mean by 'ethical behaviour', I'm not sure. Would you like to give an example? Jon 53693 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! matheesha333 Dear James, There is no need to respond. I think I say a lot of things which many people can't/don't respond to and thats just fine! :) Working these things through is a long process which takes many years with a therapist you build up a strong and close relationship with. It's not easy to talk to someone you barely know, on a public forum - your post was admirable. No therapist pretends to know, but rather is looking to explore what it means for the client. I see no conflict with doing that and developing on the path - in fact I think they are complementary - your chances of defilements arising are less when issues are sorted out to some degree. Less anger, less sadness. Especially important I think for lay people, who dont have the time for the full practice of a monk. I deal with issues myself through a mixture of mindfulness, vitakkasanatasutta style thought control, and psychological insight into my past. Peeling away the onion. It has been helpful; lessened my suffering and changed negative patterns of thought arising. metta Matheesha ps- welcome to have an offline chat if you like, no pressure 53694 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:08pm Subject: Re: origin of right view magga phala matheesha333 Dear Tep and others, M: What is your view on this: did the buddha actually speak of magga- citta and phala-citta? I think not. The 8 ariya persons are meaningless if 4 of them actually last less than a second (the 'magga' ariyas). Also I came across a sutta where a man was saying that he gives dana to only those in arahantha magga - so this has to have a different meaning from magga-citta (then the buddha says to give to the sangha as a whole). I think the magga spoken in the suttas were about the noble 8fold path, or simply being on the path/striving to the next higher attainment, equally phala being someone who had attained and enjoying the 'fruits' of that stage. Did he speak of getting rid of defilements are the point of attainment, or before? I think it is before. Sabhasava sutta/mn comes to mind in its different ways of dealing with defilements. Nowhere does it say you could nicely enjoy yourself and hey presto! you are free from defilements of the corresponding level. I am not sure about these though, just trying to find out more. metta Matheesha 53695 From: "randallparr2003" Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: msg fm metta randallparr2003 Yo! Wayne "Metta" I have heard great things about Vapassana relating to finding inner peace, relieving stress, hatred and negative feelings. I am very ignorant however, and know little of it. What can you tell me? I am eastern USA 61. regards, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wayne wrote: > > Hello to all from the midwestern USA! > > I have been a student of Theravada Vipassana since > I got out of the hospital in 1993. I am 59 years old, > homebound handicapped since 1989, and have two > children and three grand children. I learned about > this group when Andrew gave the sumary of Ven. > Analayo's book on the Satipatthana. I took a year > long course in Insight Meditation from Barre, MA > in 1993. My nickname is "Metta" > > Metta to all! > > Wayne "Metta" > 53696 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and James) - >... > > > If I can butt in with some language-use comments: A path is something >to be traversed, and that traversal occurs in stages over a period of time, >and not instantaneously. > Thanks for butting in ;-)). As I think I said in my original post to Tep, the 'path' begins at stream-entry and ends with arahantship. In the course of the development of the path, there are 8 moments of actual 'path consciousness', namely, the 4 magga (path) cittas and the 4 phala (fruition) cittas. These are reflected in the suttas by the references to the 8 pairs of persons. I think that meets your definition of 'path' as "something to be traversed, and that traversal occurs in stages over a period of time, and not instantaneously". >Thus, to take 'path' to mean "path moment" or "moment >of path consciousness" is an odd use of language. > Even if one regards the NEP as encompassing the 'uninstructed worldling' who is developing insight leading to stream entry, it is still appropriate, given the momentary and ever-changing nature of consciousness, to talk about moments of path and non-path consciousness. For example, a person could not be said to be 'on' the path at moments of wrong view. > Now, the terms 'path moment' and 'moment of path consciousness' are, >themselves, perfectly good terms that reference an awakening, a timeless moment >of realization of nibbana that is associated with the path, occurring along >the way, and which is a high point along the path. But to identify the path >with a path moment seems off the mark to me. It is an identifying of an entire >journey with a single moment of that journey. > I hope what I have just said gives an appropriate context to the reference to 'path moment' ('moment of path consciousness'). Jon 53697 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi James Thanks for the elaboration. I see your point now. The path here is a metaphorical one, so some licence is allowable ;-)). Actually, even if one conceives of the path as including the practice leading to stream entry (which I would call the mundane path, not the NEP), it would still in fact come down in the final analysis to certain moments of consciousness only, when a particular kind of kusala (i.e., insight) consciousness arises, rather than something more nebulous like having taken refuge in the Triple Gem or being a person who develops samatha. Jon buddhatrue wrote: >I think that Howard has very well explained the reasoning behind my >point that "path moment" is oxymoronic. Maybe you have never >considered this before? How do "path" and "moment" fit together? >Of course, I was approaching the issue in a semantic sense, but >Howard picked up on my deeper meaning and elaborated in a dhamma >sense. > >But, to get back to semantics for a bit, I will offer some >definitions: > >Path n 1: a course of conduct; "the path of virtue"; "we went our >separate ways"; "our paths in life led us apart"; "genius usually >follows a revolutionary path" [syn: way, way of life] 2: a way >especially designed for a particular use 3: an established line of >travel or access [syn: route, itinerary] 4: a line or route along >which something travels or moves; "the hurricane demolished houses >in its path"; "the track of an animal"; "the course of the river" >[syn: track, course] > >Moment n 1: a particular point in time; "the moment he arrived the >party began" [syn: minute, second, instant] 2: an indefinitely short >time; "wait just a moment"; "it only takes a minute"; "in just a >bit" [syn: minute, second, bit] 3: at this time; "the >disappointments of the here and now"; "she is studying at the >moment" [syn: here and now, present moment] 4: having important >effects or influence; "decisions of great consequence are made by >the president himself"; "virtue is of more moment that security" >[syn: consequence, import] [ant: inconsequence] 5: the moment of a >couple is the product of its force and the distance between its >opposing forces 6: the n-th moment of a distribution is the expected >value of the n-th power of the deviations from a fixed value. > >Oxymoron n : A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or >contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a >mournful optimist. > >http://dictionary.reference.com/ > >Metta, >James > > 53698 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >I appreciate your knowledge of the magga as shown below. > It was a pleasant surprise to find that we are so much in agreement on this matter ;-)). I will jump straight to your comments and questions on MN 117. >>Jon: >>As to the actual development of awareness and understanding that >>leads to the attainment of the first moment of path consciousness (at stream-entry), this we find dealt with in the Satipatthana Sutta and >>numerous other suttas. >> > > > >Tep: To be more precise, may I focus on one very important sutta: MN >117? This sutta clearly explains how to develop each and every Path >factors from the level below the "supramundane" attainment. I have >written elsewhere about such a process in MN 117, that I believe is "the >actual practice of the development of insight leading to that attainment". > > > >>Jon: >>Hoping I have managed to explain clearly. I appreciate that this >>goes directly against your present line of thinking, so I don't expect >>your agreement, but perhaps we can discuss this general area further. >> > > >Tep: On the contrary, I am in total agreement with your above >statements. The only point that I am not sure we are in agreement is : >what you think of the MN 117 as to its providing the way for worldlings to >develop the eight Path factors to the lokuttara level. > >My point: before the attainment of the supramundane magga factors, >each Path factor can be developed jointly (samma-ditthi + samma- >vayama + samma-sati running and revolving around the first Path >factors) and sequentailly (samma-ditthi as "forerunner", then samma- >sankappa follows, then samma-vaca follows ...) as in MN 117. > I think MN 117 is a description of the difference between mundane path moments (moments of insight development), and supramundane path moments (moments of enlightenment). In the former, some but not all of the eight path-factors are present, while in the latter all arise together. I would not see this sutta as describing a 'way of practice'. Simply put, there is no way the various path-factors can be made or induced to arise, whether separately or in unison. However, according to my understanding of the teachings, when there is insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, then the mundane path factors are present (and do their thing), without the need for any further 'input' from us. It is for this reason that the Satipatthana Sutta begins by proclaiming the teaching contained there to be the 'only way', and ends by giving assurances of attainment of enlightenment. It is a clear declaration that nothing further is required to 'be done'. I see this as complementing the descriptions of the the growth of various factors given in MN 117 and elsewhere. Jon 53699 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon, James, and all - > > It seem to me, as I read the suttas, that the situation is as follows: >A worldling who has studied the teachings of the Buddha, who has taken refuge >in the three jewels in his/her heart, and who has commenced the serious >practice of the Dhamma and committed himself/herself fully to it has embarked on >the path to stream entry. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a stream >entrant and then enters upon the path towards once-return. With the fruition >of that path, s/he becomes a once returner and then enters upon the path >towards non-return. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a non-returner and >then enters upon the path towards full awakening and release. With the >fruition of that path, s/he becomes an arahant with nothing further to be done except to be a light for others. > > I have no disagreement with the above, but the question still remains, I think, whether when the Buddha spoke of the NEP (in the context of the Four Noble Truths) he was referring to moments of supramundane consciousness only, or was including moments of mundane consciousness preceding stream entry. Thanks for the passage below quoted from the Nagara Sutta (SN). However, I don't see anything there that is inconsistent with the interpretation I have been suggesting. Jon >With metta, >Howard > >P.S. The path of practice is not an instantaneous event, but is a path to be >traversed, the fruition of which is a direct experiencing of the >unconditioned. In this regard, please see the following from the Nagara Sutta ("The City") >of the Samyutta Nikaya: >_________________________ >"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an >ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would >follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital >inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, >delightful. ... >IAnd what is that ancient path, that >ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just >this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right >action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right >concentration. ... > > > 53700 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Defending Jon ?! jonoabb Hi Joop Thanks for going to the trouble of typing out the passage from BB's introduction to the Mahavagga of CDB. He is certainly a very learned scholar of Pali and the teachings. Joop wrote: >Hallo Jon, Tep, James, all > >Curious how many time the NEP is described in the Sutta Pitaka, I >looked at the index of the Samyutta Nikaya. I have not yet read them >all, but the Introduction of Bhikkhu Bodhi (even to me an authority) >to part V, the Mahavagga is very important for our discussion: > >"The eightfold path is described by the Buddha as ariya, noble, and >this qualification is important. It would be too restrictive to >maintain, as some interpreters of early Buddhism have done, that the >eightfold path can be practised only by those who are technically >ariyapuggalas, noble individuals beginning with the faith-follower. > > However, this is not the interpretation I have been suggesting. It would be interesting to know who BB has in mind here. I do not know of any 'early interpreters' who maintain that 'the eightfold path can be practised only by those who are technically ariyapuggalas'. Of course it goes without saying, and is a matter of definition, that the supramundane path can only be 'practised' by an ariya-puggala, and that a non-ariyan may 'practise' only the mundane path. I think the paragraph that follows is BB the individual speaking, rather than BB the Pali/sutta scholar. >Certainly the Buddha offered the eightfold path to all his disciples >who aspired to release from the suffering of samsara, and for this >reason he called it the way leading tom cessation of suffering. We >might understand the adjective ariya in a broader sense as indicating >not only that this is the path followed by the ariyans, but also that >this is the path to be practised to arrive at the ariyan state, the >state of onward spiritual nobility. The reach the truly ariyan NEP >that leads infallibly to Nibbana, one has to start somewhere, and the >most reasonable place to start is with the development of the eight >path factors in their humbler, more immediately accessible >manifestations. >The eight path factors are formally defined at 45:8; using stock >definitions found elsewhere in the Pali Canon (e.g. at DN II 311 en >MN III 251-52). But these definitions scarcely indicate how the >pathis to be developed as a whole. On this question we do not find >detailed instructions made explicit anywhere in the Mahavagga, and >thus the 'how-to-manual' of the practice had to be pieced together >from various sources. We can start with the Buddha's statement that >each path factor emerges from its predecessor (45:1) and use this as >a key for sketching a picture of how the path unfolds in actual >experience. ….." >(Translation of the SN, page 1494-1495) > >It goes on some pages further, perhaps tomorrow I have energy to type >these also. > > That would be good. His writings are always very readable (his translations of suttas and commentary material are absolutely invaluable). Jon 53701 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/18/05 10:31:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon (and James) - > >... > > > > > > If I can butt in with some language-use comments: A path is something > >to be traversed, and that traversal occurs in stages over a period of time, > > >and not instantaneously. > > > > Thanks for butting in ;-)). As I think I said in my original post to > Tep, the 'path' begins at stream-entry and ends with arahantship. In > the course of the development of the path, there are 8 moments of actual > 'path consciousness', namely, the 4 magga (path) cittas and the 4 phala > (fruition) cittas. These are reflected in the suttas by the references > to the 8 pairs of persons. > > I think that meets your definition of 'path' as "something to be > traversed, and that traversal occurs in stages over a period of time, > and not instantaneously". -------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, well done, Jon! I think this answers the semantic aspect of the matter excellently. :-) -------------------------------------- > > >Thus, to take 'path' to mean "path moment" or "moment > >of path consciousness" is an odd use of language. > > > > Even if one regards the NEP as encompassing the 'uninstructed worldling' > who is developing insight leading to stream entry, it is still > appropriate, given the momentary and ever-changing nature of > consciousness, to talk about moments of path and non-path > consciousness. For example, a person could not be said to be 'on' the > path at moments of wrong view. --------------------------------------- Howard: I follow you. What you're saying here I don't quite agree with, because I understand "the path" to be concept, not paramattha dhamma, but this is very good, Jon! -------------------------------------- > > > Now, the terms 'path moment' and 'moment of path consciousness' are, > >themselves, perfectly good terms that reference an awakening, a timeless > moment > >of realization of nibbana that is associated with the path, occurring along > > >the way, and which is a high point along the path. But to identify the path > > >with a path moment seems off the mark to me. It is an identifying of an > entire > >journey with a single moment of that journey. > > > > I hope what I have just said gives an appropriate context to the > reference to 'path moment' ('moment of path consciousness'). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you did very, very well with this. Well thought out, and well explained! --------------------------------------- > > Jon > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53702 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/18/05 11:03:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon, James, and all - > > > > It seem to me, as I read the suttas, that the situation is as follows: > >A worldling who has studied the teachings of the Buddha, who has taken > refuge > >in the three jewels in his/her heart, and who has commenced the serious > >practice of the Dhamma and committed himself/herself fully to it has > embarked on > >the path to stream entry. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a > stream > >entrant and then enters upon the path towards once-return. With the > fruition > >of that path, s/he becomes a once returner and then enters upon the path > >towards non-return. With the fruition of that path, s/he becomes a > non-returner and > >then enters upon the path towards full awakening and release. With the > >fruition of that path, s/he becomes an arahant with nothing further to be > done except to be a light for others. > > > > > > I have no disagreement with the above, but the question still remains, I > think, whether when the Buddha spoke of the NEP (in the context of the > Four Noble Truths) he was referring to moments of supramundane > consciousness only, or was including moments of mundane consciousness > preceding stream entry. > > Thanks for the passage below quoted from the Nagara Sutta (SN). > However, I don't see anything there that is inconsistent with the > interpretation I have been suggesting. ------------------------------------ Howard: You may be right, Jon. ------------------------------------ > > Jon ================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53703 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 337- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[g] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] Sloth and torpor are hard to eradicate. Even the sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí and the anågåmí still have sloth and torpor. Only the arahat has eradicated them completely. We are likely to have many moments of sloth and torpor, but it is not easy to know when they occur. We should remember that, when there are defilements such as wrong view, conceit, envy, stinginess or regret, sloth and torpor can arise as well if the citta they accompany is prompted. Sloth and torpor cause mental unwieldiness and mental indisposition or sickness, so that there is no vigour, no energy for kusala. Sloth and torpor are harmful, they are among the “hindrances” which prevent us from performing dåna, observing síla or applying ourselves to mental development. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! nilovg Hi Matheesha, I still kept your amd other's Q. (also Joop's), but I am just back on line. I just wrote myself about this sutta, but used B.b.'s translation and notes. It may interest you. op 18-12-2005 21:30 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are > unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of > attachment, he directly knows every thing. ... > "He sees the eye as something separate. ... > > "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance > is abandoned and clear knowing arises." > M: My understanding of what is meant by 'seperately' is that each > have to be seen as distinct entities. This is possible through deep > vipassana/investigation of the dhammas. (snipped) ----------- N: We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Ch II< § 80, Ignorance, translated by Ven. Bodhi).... ³Here, bhikkhu, a bhikkhu has heard, ŒNothing is worth adhering to¹. When a bhikkhu has heard, ŒNothing is worth adhering to¹, he directly knows everything. Having directly known everything, he fully understands everything. Having fully understood everything, he sees all signs (nimitta) differently. He sees the eye differently, he sees forms differently...whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition... that too he sees differently...² As to the term adhere, this pertains to clinging with wrong view. The Commentary explains the words, he sees all signs differently (sabbanimittåni aññato passati) as follows: ³He sees all the signs of formations (saòkhåranimittåni) in a way different from that of people who have not fully understood the adherences. For such people see all signs as self, but one who has fully understood the adherences sees them as nonself, not as self. Thus in this sutta the characteristic of nonself is discussed.² **** Nina. 53705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[f] nilovg Dear Htoo, sloth and torpot can arise with issaa, macchariya, and kukkucca, but only when the dosa-muulacitta that is accompanied by them is sasankhaarika. Yes, this is possible. Nina. op 18-12-2005 21:54 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > My opinion is that sloth and torpot can arise with dosa but not with > issaa, macchariya, and kukkucca. Am I wrong? This is just personal > opinion. 53706 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:22am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 Intro: Thus far feelings were classified as gross or subtle according according to the jaati or class of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya; according to characteristic, sabhaava; according to person, which actually means according to plane of citta; according to mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara), and according to the planes of existence where they occur. In this section feelings are classified as subtle and gross in accordance with the physical basis, vatthu, which may be inferior or superior. As we have seen, Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 193 deals with the meaning of inferior (hiina) and superior (pa.niita), said of the five khandhas, and in that section specifically of ruupakkhandha. When these terms are used figuratively, they are used by way of comparison, such as the bodily phenomena of beings in different planes of existence. When they are used in the absolute sense superior is the result of kusala kamma and inferior the result of akusala kamma. Kusala vipaakacitta experiences a desirable object (i.t.thaaramma.na) and akusala vipaakacitta experiences an undesirable object (ani.t.thaaramma.na). In this section (208) it is explained that an inferior physical base and a superior physical base condition feelings to be gross or subtle. The Tiika gives a further explanation. ****** Text Vis. 208: And according to physical basis, any feeling that has an inferior physical basis is gross, while one with a superior physical basis is subtle. (viii)-(ix) What is gross should be regarded as 'inferior' in the inferior-superior classification, and what is subtle 'superior'. -------- N: The Tiika explains that this pertains to the feelings that arise while someone eats coarse or refined food. The feeling which arises in a man as he eats a dish of rough millet is gross. If he is eating rice and a curry of meat, the feeling is subtle. Even different foods that one eats condition the arising of different feelings that experience inferior or superior objects. Ruupa that is inferior (hiina) and ruupa that is superior (panita, agreeable) condition the arising of different feelings. What is said of feeling also pertains to citta and the other accompanying cetasikas, they are all affected. ****** Nina. 53707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: origin of right view magga phala nilovg Hi Matheesha, we read about the four parts of persons, and this is a conventional way of saying: eight lokuttara cittas, two pairs for each stage. We discussed this before in this forum, and I know and appreciate that there are different opinions. Let us consider the magga citta of the sotaapanna which is without delay followed by the phalacitta (also this, akalika, was discussed here before). Enlightenment is only a few moments, and nobody else even may notice this. For example during a fall (Therigatha), when cooking, etc. But, these few moments are most decisive, they condition someone to be changed from a worldling into a noble one who has no wrong view, and who can never transgress the five precepts anymore. Nina. op 19-12-2005 01:08 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > What is your view on this: did the buddha actually speak of magga- > citta and phala-citta? I think not. The 8 ariya persons are > meaningless if 4 of them actually last less than a second > (the 'magga' ariyas) 53708 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Matheesha's post with compassion. nilovg Hi Mathheesha, yes, I mentioned this. I found your post so human and full of compassion. I am glad you sent it on list. Nina. op 19-12-2005 00:46 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: to James: > There is no need to respond. I think I say a lot of things which > many people can't/don't respond to and thats just fine! :) 53709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit, momentary Path. nilovg Hi Jon, Howard and friends, I have a few reflections on the eightfold Path that is being developed by a worldling. I listened to a recording of discussions in Sri Lanka, where the subject was the Path leading to enlightenment. Kh. Sujin said: I find it very helpful to remember that citta and the Pathfactors which are cetasikas arise for a moment and then fall away. This is in conformity with real life. Lodewijk said that it seemed to him that he had more understanding when in India, going around to the holy places. But now it seems that the little understanding he had is lost when he is back in the routine of life in Holland. I reminded him of what you had said to him in India about the Path being momentary. I quote what I wrote about your words: It is good to be reminded that the moments of sati and paññaa arise and fall away and that we cannot hold them. The understanding that arises is never lost, it can grow. It is true, Howard, one can look at the Path in different ways, and you described it very well, but I prefer the very direct and practical approch of seeing the Path as cetasikas that arise for a moment with citta. What else is the Path but the eight factors that develop together? I appreciate very much what Sarah said to Joop: I just cannot help it that I prefer this approach. And with Joop, I am just considering the mundane Path. Nina. op 19-12-2005 05:03 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > I have no disagreement with the above, but the question still remains, I > think, whether when the Buddha spoke of the NEP (in the context of the > Four Noble Truths) he was referring to moments of supramundane > consciousness only, or was including moments of mundane consciousness > preceding stream entry. 53710 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 597 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' '63 contemplations on detail movement' Again these 20 activities of each of 'own' 'others' 'both own and others' make 60 activities. 3 contemplations on each of origination, dissolution, and both origination and dissolution make a total of altogether 63 contemplations along with 60 activities. These 20 activities are just examples of daily activities and any activity can be contemplated to see naama or ruupa as underlying dhamma. We were born. So we live. Since born we have been breathing. As breathing is a constant activity the first object to contemplate becomes 'breathing'. Here it is not the idea on breathing. There are many ruupa that arise because of the activity of breathing. It is totally impossible to be at breathing only. So the next activity becomes the second most common activity. We are in a specific posture at any given time. Here the contemplation is not on the idea of posture. It is preached as conventional but when sitting, standing, walking, lying down are thoroughly contemplated there ruupa and then naama can very clearly be seen. Example; I am sitting now (at the time I am typing) and the body is erect. This erectness is supported by wind-element or vayo-dhaatu. When there arise a good concentration these dhaatu of different body- object or photthabbaa or touch-object can clearly be seen through mind eye. Breathing is a constant activity. Posture is necessary to support the body, which is being contemplated. So after breathing, posture becomes the main place for the mind to occupy while contemplating on ruupa or naama arising through the body. Again a posture cannot long be maintained. Whoever can stay in a posture without moving. Posture has to be changed for easeness of the body and for health. When a posture is changed into another one there arise ruupa and so also naama. These are to be contemplated. 20 activities that I will be describing in the coming posts are all about naama and ruupa. Contemplating mind has to be on ruupa or naama. Example; when I hold a cup the cap has to be grasped by fingers. When trying so there arise movements of bending and straightening of fingers. Even before these movements are the thoughts that lead to these movements. 20 daily activities will be described in the coming posts. Mindfulness has to be any of 261, or to be on any of feeling or to be on consciousness or to be on dhamma, which are not self and are not controllable. Such mindfulness along with other path-factors is said to be right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53711 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:46am Subject: B.B.'s letter about Survey. nilovg Dear Sarah and all, I received a very kind letter from Ven. Bodhi, handwritten, as follows: 53712 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:16am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 337- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[g] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom ***** > Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Sarah ( and/ or Nina), I forgot to ask a question. Which cittas are more powerful to give rise to akusala-vipaaka? A. Asankhaarika cittas (all in A group do not have thiina-middha) 1. joyful-wrongview-unprompted attaching consciousness 2. joyful-nowrongview-unprompted attaching consciousness 3. joyless-wrongview-unprompted attaching consciousness 4. joyless-nowrongview-unprompted attaching consciousness 5. displeasured-hurtful-unprompted aversive consciousness B. Sasankhaarika cittas(all in B group have thiina-middha) 1. joyful-wrongview-prompted attaching consciousness 2. joyful-nowrongview-prompted attaching consciousness 3. joyless-wrongview-prompted attaching consciousness 4. joyless-nowrongview-prompted attaching consciousness 5. displeasured-hurtful-prompted aversive consciousness With respect, Htoo Naing 53713 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: origin of right view magga phala mr39515 Dear All... Hi there.. I just look at the 16 Nana (knowledge) and all 16 knowledge is basically a process which one goes thru to attain sainthood. I believe the Sammasambuddha can breakdown all those 16 knowledges and explain how the process to attain sainthood. Any way, HE is a Sammasambuddha who is the Perfect One and capable to teach. Basically the knowledge of path or the 14th Nana (Purity of Knowledge and Wisdom) is where one see the burst of wisdom one required to destroy completely all the kilesa thus we call this the Right View of the 8 Fold Path. This process is basically a one moment thing (for those non Jhana person). The result of this 14th Nana is the 15th Nana (Phala Nana - Fruition Consciousness or knowledge of the frution). This result is called Lokuttara Vipaka thus one attain Sotapan (Sainthood). In term of moment, Magga and Phala is different. In term of process, Magga and Phala is also different. Thus there are 8 individual of the Saints. Time is NEVER a thing to discuss here for those who understand the Dhamma or those with Lokuttara cittas. Since time does NOT exist (in Abhidhamma sense), how can one say how long or short those moments are. Metta mr39515 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Matheesha, > we read about the four parts of persons, and this is > a conventional way of > saying: eight lokuttara cittas, two pairs for each > stage. We discussed this > before in this forum, and I know and appreciate that > there are different > opinions. <...> 53714 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 and Tiika htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 Intro: Thus far feelings were classified as gross or subtle according according to the jaati or ; according to characteristic, sabhaava; according to person, means according to plane of citta; according to mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara), and according to the planes of existence where they occur. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, do you mean 'FEELINGS' were classified according to 1. jaati 2. sabhaava 3. puggala 4. lokiiya-lokuttaraa 5. bhuumi ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- In this section feelings are classified as subtle and gross in accordance with the physical basis, vatthu, which may be inferior or superior. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please explain further these feeling how inferior and how superior. --------------------------------------------------------------------- As we have seen, Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 193 deals with the meaning of inferior (hiina) and superior (pa.niita), said of the five khandhas, and in that section specifically of ruupakkhandha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are there hiina vedana and pa.niita vedana? --------------------------------------------------------------------- When these terms are used figuratively, they are used by way of comparison,such as the bodily phenomena of beings in different planes of existence. When they are used in the absolute sense superior is the result of kusala kamma and inferior the result of akusala kamma. Kusala vipaakacitta experiences a desirable object (i.t.thaaramma.na) and akusala vipaakacitta experiences an undesirable object (ani.t.thaaramma.na). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is clear. That means I can understand. I am not assessing whether the writing is clear or not but I am reading and self- checking whether I understand or not. --------------------------------------------------------------------- In this section (208) it is explained that an inferior physical base and a superior physical base condition feelings to be gross or subtle. The Tiika gives a further explanation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, before we move to Tiikaa explanation could you please explain 1. inferior physical base 2. superior physical base 3. gross feeling 4. subtle feeling --------------------------------------------------------------------- ****** Text Vis. 208: And according to physical basis,....is subtle 'superior'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Tiikaa explanation is OK. -------------------------------------------------------------------- N: The Tiika explains that this pertains to the feelings that arise while someone eats coarse or refined food. The feeling which arises in a man as he eats a dish of rough millet is gross. If he is eating rice and a curry of meat, the feeling is subtle. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not grasp the idea here. Do they mean when a man is eating cooked corn-grain his feelings are gross and when a man is eating very very refine food his feelings are subtle? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Even different foods that one eats condition the arising of different feelings that experience inferior or superior objects. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are inferior object and what are suprior object? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruupa that is inferior (hiina) and ruupa that is superior (panita, agreeable) condition the arising of different feelings. What is said of feeling also pertains to citta and the other accompanying cetasikas, they are all affected. ****** Nina. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean 'hiina rupas' are unagreeable and 'pa.niita ruupas' are agreeable? With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 53715 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:12am Subject: Htoo's Thanks htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Sukin and all, Sarah, the book arrived before Christmas. Thanks Sukin for his kind action sending the hard copy of 'A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, translated by Nina vanGorkom. I am writing this message as soon as I finish a reply to Nina's Visuddhimagga feeling post. While I am replying the book postman comes at the door. Today is 19 December 2005. The book is the first edition printed in 2005. Thanks for the kindness of Organisers (? Sarah and Jon, A Sujin, Sukin, and other members). As usual for Dhamma book there is a page expressing 'Namo tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammaa Sambuddhassa' I feel calm. And when I have a look at 'the translation of Namo tassa..' it is the same version of translation that I feel more at ease than others. Inner page is the title of the book, the author's name (A Sujin) and translator (Nina) and Dhamma Study and Support Foundation. As my usual as soon as a book arrives I look the cover front and back and then the first page and the last page. Then quickly through pages. There are 465 pages. I receive the metta that radiates from the message in that book. Thanks Acharn Sujin Boriharnwanaket, the translator Nina vanGorkom, Dhamma Study and Support Foundation, all the organisers, Sarah (who is the most heartfelt friend-Mom) and Jonathan Abbot. Finally, last but not the least it is Sukinder who helps me receive the book. I think, even though I have not thoroughly read, the book in its very first edition is complete. If there are to be more books then they will have to be just reprint rather than other editions as the book is already concise and complete for 'A Survey'. With much respect, Htoo Naing 53716 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: origin of right view magga phala htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: Dear Ng Boon Huat, You wrote: Dear All... Hi there.. I just look at the 16 Nana (knowledge) and all 16 knowledge is basically a process which one goes thru to attain sainthood. I believe the Sammasambuddha can breakdown all those 16 knowledges and explain how the process to attain sainthood. Any way, HE is a Sammasambuddha who is the Perfect One and capable to teach. Basically the knowledge of path or the 14th Nana (Purity of Knowledge and Wisdom) is where one see the burst of wisdom one required to destroy completely all the kilesa thus we call this the Right View of the 8 Fold Path. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some say there are 18 ~naana. Some say there are 16 ~naana.[including you as you now say 16] Some say there are 10 ~naana. But all are the same. 14th is path-knowledge or magga-naana. In case of enumeration of naana as 10 the first 3 naana are not counted as vipassanaa naana. So there left 11 naana. Magga-naana is the result of vipassanaa and it is not vipassanaa naana. So there are 10 vipassanaa naana. If 14th is path, 15th will be fruition. And 16th will be retrospection (paccavakkhana naana). --------------------------------------------------------------------- This process is basically a one moment thing (for those non Jhana person). -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think both are the same for magga citta to arise. That is for those with jhaana magga citta also arise for just a moment. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The result of this 14th Nana is the 15th Nana (Phala Nana - Fruition Consciousness or knowledge of the frution). This result is called Lokuttara Vipaka thus one attain Sotapan (Sainthood). In term of moment, Magga and Phala is different. In term of process, Magga and Phala is also different. Thus there are 8 individual of the Saints. Time is NEVER a thing to discuss here for those who understand the Dhamma or those with Lokuttara cittas. Since time does NOT exist (in Abhidhamma sense), how can one say how long or short those moments are. Metta mr39515 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Ng Boon Huat. With respect, Htoo Naing 53717 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 598 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' '63 contemplations on detail movement' [sampaja~n~na pabba or section on clear understanding] As explained in the previous post these 63 are 20 for each of own, others, and 'both own & others' along with 3 that are each of origination, dissolution, and 'both origination & dissolution'. 20 daily activities are 1. contemplation on 'going to somewhere' (abhikkante) 2. contemplation on 'coming back from somewhere'(patikkante) 3. contemplation on 'looking straight ahead'(aalokite) 4. contemplation on 'looking elsewhere'(vilokite) 5. contemplation on 'bending'(sami.mjite) 6. contemplation on 'straightening'(pasaarite) 7. contemplation on 'handling'(dhaarane) 8. contemplation on 'eating'(asite) 9. contemplation on 'drinking'(pite) 10.contemplation on 'biting/gnawing/cracking/chewing'(khayite) 11. contemplation on 'licking/savouring/tasting/smacking'(saayite) 12. contemplation on 'defecation'(uccaara kamme) 13. contemplation on 'urination'(passaava kamme) 14. contemplation on 'walking'(gate) 15. contemplation on 'standing/stopping walking'(htite) 16. contemplation on 'sitting'(nissinne) 17. contemplation on 'going asleep'(sutte) 18. contemplation on 'waking up afresh'(jaagarite) 19. contemplation on 'speaking'(bhasite) 20. contemplation on 'silence'(tunhnibhaave) There are more than these. But again these activities are just for a focus and the contemplating mind has to be attending at ruupa or naama and not on names of these activities. When mindfulness is at ruupa or naama when these naama or ruupa arise during these activity can be called as right mindfulness and it is called sammaa-sati. Sammaa-sati is one of 8 path-factors of goodness. [Remember there are 12 path-factors in general and 8 are right path-factors and 4 are wrong path-factors.] May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53718 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit, momentary Path. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Jon) - In a message dated 12/19/05 4:27:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > It is true, Howard, one can look at the Path in different ways, and you > described it very well, but I prefer the very direct and practical approch > of seeing the Path as cetasikas that arise for a moment with citta. What > else is the Path but the eight factors that develop together? > ================== I have no objection to seeing the path (or the four paths) as *consisting* of cetasikas - in fact I see it (or them) that way, and I even think it is rather nice to speak of akusala states as times of stepping off the path. But "the path itself" (or "paths themselves") is (or are) not paramatthic.The perspective that you are presenting, while very satisfying intellectually [seriously, I am attracted to the theoretical structure], is not that taken by the Buddha in his discourses, as I view them. The way in which I presented the matter in my post "Path and Fruit" is how I understand it. (Notice, BTW, that the Buddha didn't describe a person's first awakening as "entering the path" but as "entering the stream.") With metta, Howard P.S. To some extent, I think we may be discussing fine points of disagreement here that are far from crucial. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53719 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thank you for the quick reply that elaborate about your understanding of MN 117. It is different from mine. Who sees the Buddha's words in the sutta more accurately (according to the Lord's purpose)? A third person can give us a clue, yet the best way is to discover the truth by ourselves through "practcing according to the Eightfold Path". > >Jon: > > I think MN 117 is a description of the difference between mundane path moments (moments of insight development), and supramundane path moments (moments of enlightenment). > > In the former, some but not all of the eight path-factors are present, while in the latter all arise together. > > I would not see this sutta as describing a 'way of practice'. Simply put, there is no way the various path-factors can be made or induced to arise, whether separately or in unison. However, according to my understanding of the teachings, when there is insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, then the mundane path factors are present (and do their thing), without the need for any further 'input' from us. It is for this reason that the Satipatthana Sutta begins by proclaiming the teaching contained there to be the 'only way', and ends by giving assurances of attainment of enlightenment. It is a clear declaration that nothing further is required to 'be done'. I see this as complementing the descriptions of the the growth of various factors given in MN 117 and elsewhere. > > Tep: Thank you for the interesting alternative view on MN 117. But we should let it be the last words. :-) Warm regards, Tep ====== 53720 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: B.B.'s letter about Survey. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Congratulations on your new book. I also wish that it may "receive the international attention it deserves". Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all, > I received a very kind letter from Ven. Bodhi, handwritten, as follows: > > Thank you so much for the beautiful gift book- A Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas- which arrived a few days ago. This is a splendid encapsulation of > the life's teaching of Acharn Sujin, and a great deed of merit and > dhamma-dana on your part to have translated it into English. I am sure that > this book will be of great benefit to serious students of the Abhidhamma who > have entered the gates of this body of Buddhist teaching and wish to explore > it in greater depth and detail. > I do hope it will receive the international attention it deserves. > with metta and all best wishes to you, > Bhikkhu Bodhi> > 53721 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:03am Subject: About Subhuti jwromeijn Hallo all, The Ven. Subhuti was one of the followers of the Buddha that plays an important role in some Mahayana-Sutra (Diamond, Vimalakirti). I cannot understand why, all I found about him in the Tipitaka, are two texts. Does anybody know if there was something special with him? Metta Joop Subhuti (Thag I.1) {v. 1} My hut is roofed, comfortable, free of drafts; my mind, well-centered, set free. I remain ardent. So, rain-deva. Go ahead & rain. Subhuti Sutta PTS Ud 71 About Subhuti Ud VI.7 Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Ven. Subhuti was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, centered in a concentration free from directed thought. The Blessed One saw Ven. Subhuti sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, centered in a concentration free from directed thought. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Whose thoughts are vaporized, well-dealt-with within, without trace — going beyond that tie, one who perceives the formless, overcoming four yokes, does not go to rebirth. 53722 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: origin of right view magga phala jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: > > Dear All... > > Hi there.. I just look at the 16 Nana (knowledge) and > all 16 knowledge is basically a process which one goes > thru to attain sainthood. I believe the Sammasambuddha > can breakdown all those 16 knowledges and explain how > the process to attain sainthood. Any way, HE is a > Sammasambuddha who is the Perfect One and capable to > teach. > > Basically the knowledge of path or the 14th Nana > (Purity of Knowledge and Wisdom) is where one see the > burst of wisdom one required to destroy completely all > the kilesa .... Hallo Ng Boon Huat, all I agree with you. Still I think: isn't it better spending the most time on study of the 'lower nana' (the level most of us don;t have but can get in the nearby time)? And spend less time on the 'higher nana' about which you and others are talking here? Metta Joop 53723 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jwromeijn Hallo Jon, James, Tep, Howard, and Connie as a member of honour of my fanclub, James: "Joop, my humble suggestion is that you do what you feel you can do and do what you feel is beneficial. As for me, I will be watching and waiting." Tep: "I am interested in any view, thought, analysis, or conclusion you may draw from Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on the NEP which you have quoted. Is my understanding of the NEP still incorrect as you earlier thought?" Joop: I must agree, Tep: it is less incorrect, but you made it difficult mixing a defence of Jon and your own understanding. To say it on the most nice way I can: it's possible we all described a different part of the elephant. "Possible", and that's my reaction to James too: this three days during discussion and the results of my Sutta-search gave me so much stuff to study and digest about the NEP, that I have decided to give less opinions about it now than I did. It will take some time (between a day and a billion of years) to understand it. For the rest: James, I agree with you except your idea we are living now "in this age of spiritual darkness": all agres had teir own darkness. A question to you Tep, not a 'rhetoric': If I understand MN 117 well, then the other seven factors supports & are requisite conditions for "right concentration" Although the Sutta does not mention it, I think it's also possible to say that (for exemple) the other seven factors supports & are requisite conditions for "right livelihood". But I think you will not agree that it's even possible to say that the other seven factors supports & are requisite conditions for (the continuing developping of) "right view". Is that correct? I think James, Tep and Howard don't mind that my longest reaction is to Jon's two messages. (Connie and I had a good discussion off-list this week about some misunderstandings between us, that's why I adressed this to her too) Jon, thanks for your rich two messages to me. Some misunderstanding disappear, one important disagreement still exists: if that we had to do till we get streamenterer can be called the NEP. You say no and I say yes. Or even that was a big misunderstand because you say now: " Of course it goes without saying, and is a matter of definition, that the supramundane path can only be 'practised' by an ariya-puggala, and that a non-ariyan may 'practise' only the mundane path." Forgiving you the use of the term "of course" (it was not "of course" at all) you were talking about the supramundane path and I was talking about the path now, still a wordling. If you want I can say this path has moments: billions; if you want to call every arising and falling away of a dhamma "one moment". (What I had to do and what's happening from the moment I got streamenterer: I will start to study that when it's the "right time"; so I have no opinion about post-mundane path-moments.) Jon: "I think the paragraph that follows is BB the individual speaking, rather than BB the Pali/sutta scholar." Joop: I see totally no reason this theory "of the two BB's": the individual speaker and the scholar. May I ask you a personal question, Jon; is it because you are raised as an Englishman or because you are a Sujin-Buddhist (because Nina is doing the same): that you can not straight say: "I don't agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi" ? Jon (to James): "The path here is a metaphorical one, so some licence is allowable ;-))." Joop: It's another topic but that's really a breakthrough to me! I did not know, Jon, that also for you parts of the Tipitaka should not be taken literally but metaphorically, I have proposed that some weeks till months ago in threads about 'Modern Theravada'. Perhaps we two can make a list of topics in the Tipitaka that better can be understood metaphorical? I will try to answer a question of you, Jon, although it surprised me that this is a question to you: you must know what ethics is. After my question of Saturday > >Now you have tried to explain 'right concentration' in your way of thinking, > >I'm curious how you will do it with one of the other (seven) factors: > >"right livelihood"; I'm afraid that's in your system not "livelihood" at > >all and not about ethical behavior, every day again, at all. ", you asked: Jon: "The 3 factors of right speech, action and livelihood are restraints from wrong speech, action and livelihood. So right livelihood is about a moment of restraint from the doing of wrong livelihood. This may not be the same as what you mean by 'ethical behaviour', I'm not sure. Would you like to give an example?" Joop (after looking up the term 'restraint' is his dictionary): We should be careful to describe ethics in a negative way; sometimes it's inevitable but better we formulate it in a positive way; so the use of the term 'restraint' should not be the core-concept. My question to you: can you describe "right livelihood" (as a positive term) for a wordling and as "one moment"? I think you cannot: "right livelihood" is having ethical considerations again and again. A exemple: somebody has a job at research-department of a multinational firm that produces medicine; she thinks this job is "right livelihood" but doubt starts when she learns more and more of the immoral policy of that firm, responsible for the death of several people. Her consequences from this doubt is my exemple of 'ethical behavior'. Below another part of BB's introduction to "45 Maggasamyutta" As far as I do understand it, I can say I agree with it; and I had to say I had a long path to go! Metta Joop Continuation of # 53680 (skipping the most Pali-terms) "[ …a picture of how the path unfolds in actual experience.] On gaining faith in the Buddha in his role as the Tathagata, the supreme guide to deliverance, the disciple must first arrive at a clear conceptual understanding of the teaching, particcularly with respect to the principle of kamma and its fruit and the Four Noble Truths. This is right view in its embryonic stage. Right view alters the disciple's motives and purposes, steering him or her away from sensuality, ill will, and crualty, towards renunciation, benevolence, and compassion: this is right intention. Guided by right intention, the disciple undertakes the three ethical factors of the path: right speech, right action, and right livelihood. Standing on this foundation of virtue (see 45:149), the disciple trains the mind by diligently and energerically developing the four establishments of mindfulness: this is right effort applied to the practice of right mindfulness. When te efforts bears fruit, the disciple enters and dwells in the four jhanas (or, according tot the commentaries, a lower degree of concentration bordering on the first jhana): this is right concentration. Right concentration, however, is not the end of the path. Now the disciple must use the concentrated mind to explore the nature of experience. Again, the method is right mindfulness, but this time with emphasis on the fourth establishment, mindful contemplation of phenomena. The disciple contemplates the phenomena comprised in the five aggregates and the six sense bases to discern their marks of impermanence, suffering, and nonself. This is right view at a higher plane, the plane of insight. At a certain point in the course of contemplation, when insight becomes sharp and penetrative, the disciple enters upon the fixed course of rightness, the supramundane path, either as a faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower, and thereby becomes bound to win the fruit of stream-entry within this life itself. ….." (page 1495-1496) 53724 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:38am Subject: Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. onco111 Hi Howard (Nina, Jon, et al.), Just poking my head into dsg for my traditional New Year's visit... It's always great to see you all again, even if only in cyberspace. Howard, I'd have to object to any characterization of the distinction between seeing the path as cetasikas or as a generalized, conceptual 'I'm on the path because I read suttas, meditate, take precepts, and long for enlightenment' as a fine point of disagreement that is far from crucial. The question of what is path and what is not path is central to anyone who develops insight. Clear discernment on this issue is of utmost importance to bhavana. Is my characterization of a non-paramatthic, non-cetasika view of the path too unfair? Metta, Dan ================== > I have no objection to seeing the path (or the four paths) as > *consisting* of cetasikas - in fact I see it (or them) that way, and I even think it > is rather nice to speak of akusala states as times of stepping off the path. > But "the path itself" (or "paths themselves") is (or are) not paramatthic.The > perspective that you are presenting, while very satisfying intellectually > [seriously, I am attracted to the theoretical structure], is not that taken by the > Buddha in his discourses, as I view them. The way in which I presented the > matter in my post "Path and Fruit" is how I understand it. (Notice, BTW, that the > Buddha didn't describe a person's first awakening as "entering the path" but > as "entering the stream.") > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. To some extent, I think we may be discussing fine points of disagreement > here that are far from crucial. > 53725 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/19/05 12:16:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > > Hi Howard (Nina, Jon, et al.), > Just poking my head into dsg for my traditional New Year's visit... > It's always great to see you all again, even if only in cyberspace. > > Howard, I'd have to object to any characterization of the distinction > between seeing the path as cetasikas or as a generalized, > conceptual 'I'm on the path because I read suttas, meditate, take > precepts, and long for enlightenment' as a fine point of disagreement > that is far from crucial. The question of what is path and what is > not path is central to anyone who develops insight. Clear discernment > on this issue is of utmost importance to bhavana. > > Is my characterization of a non-paramatthic, non-cetasika view of the > path too unfair? ------------------------------------- Howard: I find your characterization of my position as "I'm on the path because I read suttas, meditate, take precepts, and long for enlightenment" to be trivializing and unsatisfactory. As to fair or not, hey, opinions are opinions. ;-) Every extant conventional thing, even if not nonexistant as unicorns are nonexistent, and even if quite sublime, is still less than ultimate, as it is an aggregate of many interrelated phenomena that depends for its "existence" not only on those phenomena, but also on a mental grasping, literally falacious, of that aggregate as a unity, being imputed by mind on the basis of paramattha dhammas. Moreover, those elementary phenomena themselves are fleeting, utterly dependent, unreliable, and without identity - coreless. But if we see only "trees" and not "forest," our vision is limited! The "trees" are the ultimate, but they are not isolated - they are interrelated and form patterns. As I said, I see the Noble Eightfold Path as described by the Buddha in the suttas to be a conventional matter, just as are the Dhamma, the Buddha, and the Sangha conventional matters. Gosh, the Dhamma is just an aggregate of "teachings". It isn't a paramattha dhamma. So shall we trash that? The same for the Buddha and the Sangha, all non-paramatthic. Trash them too? Ultimately, there is no Buddha, no Dhamma, and no Sangha. Ultimately, the assertion of separate existence of any "thing" is untrue; in fact, we are virtually unable to say anything that is literally true. As Seung Sahn, the Korean Son master said, "Open mouth already a mistake!" When we have finally done what is to be done we will then have a choice: Speak not at all, thereby not straying from the ultimate, or communicating the Dhamma to others in the only way possible, via flawed convention. Ultimately, there is no path at all. But, conventionally, there is - and that very conventional path is of immense (and ultimate ;-) importance. ------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Dan > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53735 From: Harry Liew Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti harryliew66 Hi Joop, Thanks for the digging. Please what is directed thought? On the path, there is no practitioner. Is directed thought needed to walk the path? Is it a preliminary must-have pre-condition/condition for jhanna or arupa practice? What is " " - that has no directed thought? This " " - does it begin with directed thought, such as thinking thinking (x2) of " "? "Everything we create for ourselves in this world we mentally kill and store away in heaven" - Nanamoli, A Thinker's Notebook, para 171, page 38, BPS, 2nd Edition, 1980. Is " " the effect of mental killing (the cause)? Or we have to resort to vaporization of tetralemma? Metta, Harry Joop wrote: Hallo all, The Ven. Subhuti was one of the followers of the Buddha that plays an important role in some Mahayana-Sutra (Diamond, Vimalakirti). I cannot understand why, all I found about him in the Tipitaka, are two texts. Does anybody know if there was something special with him? Metta Joop Subhuti (Thag I.1) {v. 1} My hut is roofed, comfortable, free of drafts; my mind, well-centered, set free. I remain ardent. So, rain-deva. Go ahead & rain. Subhuti Sutta PTS Ud 71 About Subhuti Ud VI.7 Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Ven. Subhuti was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, centered in a concentration free from directed thought. The Blessed One saw Ven. Subhuti sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, centered in a concentration free from directed thought. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Whose thoughts are vaporized, well-dealt-with within, without trace — going beyond that tie, one who perceives the formless, overcoming four yokes, does not go to rebirth. 53736 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi all, The following dialog took place, and I had to comment on it: ------------------- Q. Do they (most Buddhists) know the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well? A. No. Not. ------------------ We can only speculate about how well most Buddhists know D.O. in comparison to the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htootintnaing Sent: Sunday, 18 December, 2005 12:12 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination Dear Tep, This topic is eye-catching. This is just initiation of my next coming Dhamma Thread posts on D.O. But I am still on sammaa-sati and after which there will be sammaa-samaadhi. Then D.O would follow in Dhamma Thread. Please see below for the reason that I post this message and my answer to your questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - I realize that I have not yet replied to your last message. But there are two questions concerning this post of yours that I must ask first. 1. Your title is : 'The Buddha's Dependent Origination'. Did the Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong to him? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before I answer the question I must say that you will be looking forward to 'Direct Answer', which will not always be possible depending on the questions, the situations, the context, the time, the place, the audience, the level of wisdom of the audience and many other factors. Q. Did the Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong to him? A. No. Not. But I have to say more. Not now as it is not your question. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 2. You wrote : 'Most Buddhists know D.O very well'. Do they know the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well? <...> 53737 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 and Tiika htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > The Tiika does not give much explanation, therefore I was very careful and > made it short. I thought it over and this whole passage I did not find > clear. ----- > N: I can only refer to the above example of food. I do not know anymore, and > therefore I do not like to guess. > Nina. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much. When I see it in Tiika I may bring this topic back. For the time being I understand as you understand. Thanks again for your straight forwardness. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 53738 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: Hi all, The following dialog took place, and I had to comment on it: ------------------- Q. Do they (most Buddhists) know the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda > Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well? > > A. No. Not. ------------------ We can only speculate about how well most Buddhists know D.O. in comparison to the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that he knew it very well. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Charles, Tep and all, I forgot to mention. There may be some Buddhists (sakadaagam and anaagam) who know better than Ananda at the time he told the Buddha. Ananda was sotapana at that time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53739 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Harry Liew wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > Thanks for the digging. > > Please what is directed thought? > > On the path, there is no practitioner. Is directed thought needed to walk the path? > > Is it a preliminary must-have pre-condition/condition for jhanna or arupa practice? > > What is " " - that has no directed thought? > >..... Hallo Harry, I'm not such a kind of expert you think I am. So I have no answers. Only questions; the main one: how is a rather unknown monk in the Pali Canon transform to an important person in Mahayana? Unknown, but nice! Metta Joop 53740 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 597 ) kenhowardau Dear Htoo, ------------------------ H: > Example; when I hold a cup the cup has to be grasped by fingers. When trying so there arise movements of bending and straightening of fingers. Even before these movements are the thoughts that lead to these movements. 20 daily activities will be described in the coming posts. -------------------------- I like this post and agree with all of it. As usual, however, I am looking for something to disagree with, and I suspect it will come in the next instalment. :-) As you explain, the underlying realities have to be known - regardless of whatever illusory activity we may think we are engaged in. I suspect, however, that (in the next instalment) you will be recommending we concentrate on some of those activities. To me, that implies you do not fully accept their illusoriness. You refer to the activity of 'holding a cup' but who is to say it is THE activity at any one time? Wouldn't it be just as true (and just as false) to say we were 'inhaling air' or 'sitting' or 'looking to the front' or 'hearing the sound of nearby traffic' 'feeling the heat of the sun' 'touching the chair and the floor' and so on? Why would a meditator single out one of those concurrent conventional activities ("I am holding a cup") and ignore the others? I say it is because he does not fully accept their illusoriness. Ken H 53741 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas buddhistmedi... Dear Joop - It was very good that your energy to learn NEP more in depth is flowing strongly these days. Your many questions have been answered by some DSG members. Unfortunately you disagree with everyone, but it is fortunate that at least you agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi and accept his explanation as right. So, after reading the excerpts you typed from the BB's SN book, I now have a clearer understanding of your NEP understanding. I am now responding to your comments. > >> Tep: "I am interested in any view, thought, analysis, or conclusion >> you may draw from Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on the NEP which you >>have quoted. Is my understanding of the NEP still incorrect as you >>earlier thought?" > > Joop: I must agree, Tep: it is less incorrect, but you made it > difficult mixing a defence of Jon and your own understanding. > To say it on the most nice way I can: it's possible we all described > a different part of the elephant. > Tep: I am lucky that my NEP understanding is a little better than being incorrect. I wish more American voters were like you. The majority tends to elect bad representatives because they are too quick to accept. On the other hand, if they were like you it is quite possible that no candidates would get elected. :-)) My nicest possible reply to your "elephant simile" is that the elephant is not a correct comparison to NEP. To me NEP is more so like a multi- dimensional universe: we can "see" only the universe in three dimensions. > Joop: > A question to you Tep, not a 'rhetoric': > If I understand MN 117 well, then the other seven factors supports & > are requisite conditions for "right concentration" > Although the Sutta does not mention it, I think it's also possible to > say that (for exemple) the other seven factors supports & are > requisite conditions for "right livelihood". But I think you will not > agree that it's even possible to say that the other seven factors > supports & are requisite conditions for (the continuing developping > of) "right view". Is that correct? > Tep: I don't know, Joop. I believe MN 117 as is. The sutta is clear enough. So I am not going to add any speculations or "reading between the lines" to the sutta. Sincerely, Tep ====== 53742 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya: buddhistmedi... > Nina: > HI Tep, > I did not answer your post, but many others have reacted. > I do not know whether I can add anything new, the debates > may be drawn out too long. > Therefore, there is no need to answer me. > You were right. The many posts I wrote recently are enough; so there is no reason I can find to further "debate" those "overly drawn" issues with you or anyone. People want to believe what they want to believe. I am grateful to your reply anyway. Warm regards, Tep ============= 53743 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Fwd: [dsg] Re: B.B.'s letter about Survey. bodhi_dhamma Congratulation to Nina I also have the same wish that the book will "receive the international attention it deserves". Also hope to find a copy in Malaysian bookstore. with metta pcyap 53744 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - The following is a subtle and non-argumentative way of saying that quoting from books (commentaries, and even suttas) does not provide great fruit and great benefit. >Math.: The sutta speaks of seeing eye-consciousness, contact etc > as 'annataro'. For me the only way to do this, is to move away from >conceptualisation (with or without wisdom) and into deep >concentrated vipassana state. Otherwise seeing something like >eye-consciousness as 'annataro' (seperate/nonsaelf) is purely >conjecture. Tep: I assume that you are not conjecturing yourself. So, what is the non-conjecture meaning of 'annataro' that you have experienced through the "deep concentrated vipassana state" ? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for commenting. I had not realized you wrote about this. (I > didnt see it here) > (snipped) For me the only way to do this, is to move away from > conceptualisation (with or without wisdom) and into deep > concentrated vipassana state. Otherwise seeing something like eye- > consciousness as 'annataro' (seperate/nonsaelf) is purely > conjecture. > > metta > > Matheesha (snipped) 53745 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (Attn. Charles D.), Your reply to Charles below led to another question: What knowledge about D.O. that anagamis have but sotapannas don't have? Warm regards, Tep ====== > > Dear Charles, Tep and all, > > I forgot to mention. > > There may be some Buddhists (sakadaagam and anaagam) who know better > than Ananda at the time he told the Buddha. Ananda was sotapana at > that time. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 53746 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:15pm Subject: Re: origin of right view magga phala One-second-long Ariyans buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - I prefer to be the last person who reply to you on "magga- citta and phala-citta". My view is similar to your view -- i.e. it does not make sense for the Buddha to classify ariya-savakka into 8 kinds, if the magga ariyas "last less than a second". {:->)} SN XI.3: ' ... This Order of Disciples of the Blessed One — namely those four pairs of persons,(note1) the eight kinds of individuals (note2) — is worthy of offerings, is worthy of hospitality, is worthy of gifts, is worthy of reverential salutations, is an incomparable field of merit for the world.' Piyadassi Thera noted in his translation of SN XI.3 as follows: 1. "The four pairs of persons constitute the four kinds of aryan disciples who have attained the four paths and four fruits of sanctity (magga and phala), namely: sotapatti, "stream-entry"; sakadagami, "once-return"; anagami, "nonreturn"; and arahattha, arahantship, the fourth and the last stage at which all fetters are severed and taints rooted out. 2. "The above four pairs become eight when the Paths and Fruits are regarded separately.[end quote] Nyanatiloka: "According to the Abhidhamma, 'supermundane path', or simply 'path' (magga), is a designation of the moment of entering into one of the 4 stages of holiness - Nibbána being the object - produced by intuitional insight (vipassaná) into the impermanence, misery and impersonality of existence, flashing forth and forever transforming one's life and nature. By 'fruition' (phala) is meant those moments of consciousness which follow immediately thereafter as the result of the path, and which in certain circumstances may repeat for innumerable times during the life-time." Tep: Again, sutta believers usually are confused by Abhdhammikas' comments and their inventions of non-verified concepts that were not given by the Buddha. The concept of "moment" is one such invention. I think the "moments" concept breaks down because it implies that the first four ariyans (out of 8) only last leass than a second. So, I am confused too. Tep: So it seems to me that in order to avoid such a confusion we have to verify the concepts in question with the suttas. If the confusing concepts were created after the Buddha's total parinibbana, then we should just drop them or put them aside for further investigation. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Dear Tep and others, > > M: What is your view on this: did the buddha actually speak of magga- > citta and phala-citta? I think not. The 8 ariya persons are > meaningless if 4 of them actually last less than a second > (the 'magga' ariyas). (snipped) 53747 From: Harry Liew Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti harryliew66 Hi Joop, On taking Buddhism 101 under AK Warder and Jotiya Dhirasekera in 1969 as an elective, the former had touched on this topic during lecture on the various schools. Perhaps this piece of info may be the starting point. Metta, Harry Joop wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Harry Liew wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > Thanks for the digging. > > Please what is directed thought? > > On the path, there is no practitioner. Is directed thought needed to walk the path? > > Is it a preliminary must-have pre-condition/condition for jhanna or arupa practice? > > What is " " - that has no directed thought? > >..... Hallo Harry, I'm not such a kind of expert you think I am. So I have no answers. Only questions; the main one: how is a rather unknown monk in the Pali Canon transform to an important person in Mahayana? Unknown, but nice! <...> 53748 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:53pm Subject: The Good Friend ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: A Rare Advantage: Who is welcoming and friendly, Generous, open and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such one may attain to honour. Digha Nikaya 31 The friend who is a helping companion, The friend both in happiness and misery, The friend who gives good, sound advice, The friend who really understands... These four, the clever know as Friends! These heroes, one should cherish devotedly, as a mother nurses her own child. Digha Nikaya 31 If one find a wise and prudent friend, who leads a right, good and pure life, Then, overcoming all obstacles, one should always keep his joyous & aware company... Dhammapada 328 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 53749 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: msg fm metta sarahprocter... Hi Phil (R?), --- randallparr2003 wrote: > Yo! Wayne "Metta" I have heard great things about Vapassana relating > to finding inner peace, relieving stress, hatred and negative > feelings. I am very ignorant however, and know little of it. > What can you tell me? I am eastern USA 61. regards, Phil .... S: In the meantime, may I welcome you to DSG and thank you for this brief intro. Thx also for telling us where you come from and your age -- (about the same as Jon's age) and a tad younger than Howard who is from New York. A lot is said and written about vipassana and there are many understandings about what it is and what are the benefits. Certainly I agree that the only way to find real inner peace is through the understanding or insight which the Buddha taught. If you'd like to explorre the meaning of vipassana further, please look at a few saved posts on this topic in "Useful Posts" in the Feiles section of DSG. Click 'V' and scroll down to 'vipassana'. There is also a section 'new to the list and new to Buddhism' which may or may not be relevant for you. Please also see the simple Pali glossary in the 'files' section. You may wish to ignore detailed discussion threads for the time being and start your own with simple questions. With metta, Sarah ============= 53750 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: Reply to Sukinder's Questions -- Part I sukinderpal Dear Tep, I have been somewhat busy these past few days. I have not been able to catch up with the posts here, less so to have time to compose a reply to you. While reading both of your replies, I thought of many points to address. In the meantime however, I had also read some of your other posts in discussions with others, and while reading one of these, it occurred to me that I would be more or less saying the same things I have said before. And since it seemed to me that your confidence in your view has somewhat been consolidated in these discussion with others, anything that I write is not going to make any difference to you. So I have decided to drop this discussion. Perhaps in the future, there will be an opportunity to discuss these very same things, but from different angles. Hope you understand. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Sukin - > > One unique quality of DSG has been its knowledgeable members who are 53751 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 338- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[h] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] The Buddha told the monks to be moderate in eating and warned them not to be attached to the “ease of bed”, because such attachments give rise to sloth and torpor which are mental sickness and which destroy energy for kusala. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, no. 16, Discourse on Mental Barrenness) that the Buddha, when he was staying near Såvatthí, in the Jeta Grove, spoke about ways of mental barrenness and mental bondages. One of the mental bondages is attachment to food and sleep. We read that the Buddha said: * "And again, monks, a monk having eaten as much as his belly will hold, lives intent on the ease of bed, on the ease of lying down, on the ease of slumber. Whatever monk, having eaten as much as his belly will hold, lives intent on the ease of bed, on the ease of lying down, on the ease of slumber, his mind does not incline to ardour, to continual application, to perseverance, to striving..." * It is helpful, not only for monks, but also for laymen, to be reminded of conditions for laziness as to kusala. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53752 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.B.'s letter about Survey. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Htoo (& Lodewijk), --- nina wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > I received a very kind letter from Ven. Bodhi .... S: We were both very glad to read this kind note. Thank you for sharing it. Htoo, thank you also for sharing your appreciation with us all. I know you'll find the text very useful. (Pls also let me know when you receive the cds and other small package). Metta, Sarah p.s Pls also thank Lodewijk for the photos and for the encouragement to send B.Bodhi a copy of Survey with a note. ================================= 53753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti nilovg Hi Harry, Usually this alludes to the second jhaana where the coarse jhanafactor of vitakka, applied thought has been abandoned. Here (Subhuti, Udana) according to the commentary (translated by Masefield, II, p, 888), it has a special meaning:< it is the fourth jhana-based concentration associated with the fruition of arahatship that is implied by "concentration in which thought is absent". (For) wrong thoughts, (though temporarily) abandoned by the second and subsequent jhaanas, are not properly abandoned, on account of the non-perpetual (nature) of such abandoning; rather, it is only those abandoned by means of the ariyan path (that are properly abandoned), on account of the absence of any need of their further abandonment...> end quote. Nina. op 19-12-2005 20:49 schreef Harry Liew op harryliew66@...: > Please what is directed thought? > 53754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 and Tiika nilovg Dear Htoo, here is the Tiika. Perhaps someone in Myanmar can help. I compared with Pe maung Tin, as I usually do, but no further explanation. . op 19-12-2005 23:09 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: When I see it in Tiika I may bring this topic > back. -------- Tiika: Vatthuvasenaati ya.m vatthu.m aarabbha vedanaa pavattati, tassa vasenaapi. Hiinavatthukaati hiina.m vatthu.m aaramma.na.m katvaa ka"ngubhatta.m bhu~njantassa vedanaa hiinavatthukataaya o.laarikaa. Saalima.msodana.m bhu~njantassa pa.niitavatthukataaya sukhumaati. ------- N: Hiina and pa.nita refer to vatthu, and these become objects: aaramma.na.m katvaa. On account of these feelings occur. Nina. 53755 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination icarofranca Hi Charles! >------------------------------------------------------------------- > We can only speculate about how well most Buddhists know D.O. in >comparison > to the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told the Buddha that >he knew it > very well. >------------------------------------------------------------------ The Htoo´s reply to Tep Sastri is very clever, direct to main point. The Paticca-Sammupada - or the Dependent origination - is usualy the last item to be mastered in Buddhistic teaching. It´s so imense in purpose and scope that in The Dhammasangani - the first Abhidhamma´s treatise - its main featuras are considered as above the scope of all the book "... the rest of this matter ( about Kusala and Akusala, hetu and ahetu Dhammas, and so on)can be found at the paticca-sammupada ( Dependent origination)". Keeping efforts on the right tracks, one could only try to attain Paticca-sammupada after Samma-Sati and Samma-sammadhi. With Metta, Ícaro >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htootintnaing > Sent: Sunday, 18 December, 2005 12:12 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination > > Dear Tep, > > This topic is eye-catching. This is just initiation of my next coming > Dhamma Thread posts on D.O. But I am still on sammaa-sati and after > which there will be sammaa-samaadhi. Then D.O would follow in Dhamma > Thread. > > Please see below for the reason that I post this message and my > answer to your questions. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Tep wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > I realize that I have not yet replied to your last message. But > there are two questions concerning this post of yours that I must > ask first. > > 1. Your title is : 'The Buddha's Dependent Origination'. Did the > Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong to him? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Before I answer the question I must say that you will be looking > forward to 'Direct Answer', which will not always be possible > depending on the questions, the situations, the context, the time, > the place, the audience, the level of wisdom of the audience and > many other factors. > > Q. Did the Buddha say the D.O., or any dhamma he discivered, belong > to him? > > A. No. Not. > > But I have to say more. Not now as it is not your question. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Tep: > > 2. You wrote : 'Most Buddhists know D.O very well'. Do they know > the D.O. better than the Venerable Ananda Thera at the time he told > the Buddha that he knew it very well? > <...> > 53756 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Joop - > > It was very good that your energy to learn NEP more in depth is flowing > strongly these days. > > Your many questions have been answered by some DSG members. > Unfortunately you disagree with everyone, but it is fortunate that at least > you agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi and accept his explanation as right. So, > after reading the excerpts you typed from the BB's SN book, I now > ... Dear Tep Many thanks for your answers, they were all intelligent and some even wise. Tep: " Unfortunately you disagree with everyone, but it is fortunate that at least you agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi and accept his explanation as right" Joop: I accept this as a compliment. I disagree with some opinions sometimes, not always and not with persons; but it's a question of discussion-style and I think a clear stating is to prefer about nice vagueness (If you want I can find many Suttas in which the Buddha used a bold style of discussion). Tep: "On the other hand, if they were like you it is quite possible that no candidates would get elected. :-)) " Joop: A empty White House, that should be the emptiness of emptiness! Tep: "To me NEP is more so like a multi-dimensional universe: we can "see" only the universe in three dimensions." Joop: I bow for the depth of your superior metaphore. Joop (yesterday): I think it's also possible to say that (for exemple) the other seven factors supports & are requisite conditions for "right livelihood" Tep: "I don't know, Joop. I believe MN 117 as is. The sutta is clear enough. So I am not going to add any speculations or "reading between the lines" to the sutta. " Joop: Ok; that can be stuff for more Dhamma-study to me. Metta Joop 53757 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 208 and Tiika htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, here is the Tiika. -------- Tiika: Vatthuvasenaati ya.m vatthu.m aarabbha vedanaa pavattati, tassa vasenaapi. Hiinavatthukaati hiina.m vatthu.m aaramma.na.m katvaa ka"ngubhatta.m bhu~njantassa vedanaa hiinavatthukataaya o.laarikaa. Saalima.msodana.m bhu~njantassa pa.niitavatthukataaya sukhumaati. ------- N: Hiina and pa.nita refer to vatthu, and these become objects: aaramma.na.m katvaa. On account of these feelings occur. Nina. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much. I might have read it before. But now I felt a bit strange on 'feeling'. As you said this might be for completeness. Vatthuvasenaati --> by the way of 'base' ya.m --> that vatthu.m --> to 'base' aarabbha --> with reference to vedanaa --> feeling-s pavattati --> continue to exist tassa -- > of those, of him or his katvaa --> having done kangubhattam --> the dish of millet(boiled)[which is very rough food] saali --> rice (good quality rice) Ma.mso --> meat I think vatthu in human being and vatthu in brahma are different. By means of this vatthu 'feelings' seem to be classified. When I happen to see Myanmar translation of this Tiika I will let you know. Thanks for your kind post of reply. With respect, Htoo Naing 53758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: B.B.'s letter about Survey. nilovg Dear Pcyap, thank you. If you give your postal address to Sukin, he will send you a copy. sukinder@... Nina. op 20-12-2005 03:11 schreef bodhi dhamma op bodhi_dhamma@...: > Congratulation to Nina > > I also have the same wish that the book will "receive the international > attention it deserves". > > Also hope to find a copy in Malaysian bookstore. 53759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 6 nilovg Hi Phil, op 17-12-2005 14:05 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> Understanding can gradually >> grow, and everybody will know for himself to what extent it has > been >> developed. > > How? I thought the adze handle simile said that we don't measure > to what extent understanding has been developed (or was it to what > extent defilements have been eradicated?) It seems unlikely to me > that everyone will know this. Is this referring to stages of > enlightenment when we know things clearly? ------- N: It is pañña that knows to what extent, or, how little has been understood. It is individual, nobody else can tell us. Adze handle: to show that the whole process of development is very gradual, hardly noticeable. -------- >> The next life >> they have to listen again, they have to memorize what they heard, > but if >> they thoroughly study the realities that appear they will begin to >> understand their characteristics. > > This sounds pretty intentional. The "thoroughly study" can arise > in a natural, unforced way, I know. But for people like me who are > impatient and have strong lobha tendencies, being told to thoroughly > study the realities that appear could be dangerous. ------ N: We do not know how different individuals react, this is according to their accumulations. ------- >> Sujin: The study of the characteristics of realities has to be > developed for >> a long time. People should study so that they have first > theoretical >> understanding of realities and this will lead to direct > understanding of the >> characteristics of realities. ------- Ph: *May* lead. No expectations. Or can it be said that theoretical > understanding of realities always leads to direct understanding? I > wouldn't have thought so... ------- N: When pariyatti is correct it is sure to lead to direct understanding some time in the future, we do not know when. Nina. 53760 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 338- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[h] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] * It is helpful, not only for monks, but also for laymen, to be reminded of conditions for laziness as to kusala. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, It is also right for lay people. In Myanmar there is a saying to beat down unnecessary adverse effect of extra meal or food. Example; Myanmar eat rice. Say if a person can eat about 20 spoons of rice, which fills his belly, he should eat 2 or 3 spoons less for health and for activeness. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding nilovg Hi Tep, I try to catch up, finding this post of yours. I try to answer shortly, if you do not mind. I am inclined to use the term right understanding also for intellectual understanding that is correct. Thus, a matter of language. It grows and trhere are many levels of it. The ariyan cannot become a non-ariyan anymore, I do not know whether I expressed myself in an unclear fashion. Nina. >> N: And also: it is momentary, we do not possess it. It arises and > falls away together with all the other factors. > > Tep: I completely agree with the momentary characteristic and anatta > view for sankhara dhamma. But I am afraid I do not understand why > right understanding in an ariyan should fall away. If it did, wouldn't > that ariyan then become non-ariyan again? 53762 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. nilovg Dear Joop, op 17-12-2005 13:37 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > My question to you: Nina I'm really interested what you think of this > ordered list, can you compare it with your frame of reference? Joop to Tep: I was talking about nanaruapariccheda; > perhaps you can answer to Nina (above) about the 16 nana's too! > My second remark: thanks to bring this concept (it's not one of the > four ultimate realities, so it's a concept) to my attention ------ N: Others answered about this list of insight knowledges. ñaa.na is another word for pañña cetasika, thus, it is not a concept. It represents stages of pañña that is developing. The objects are the same: nama and rupa appearing now, but the understanding becomes clearer. Mahasi takes the same list, from the Commentary. But, as I wrote before, in nucleus it is there in suttas, clear comprehension: the pariññas. If we consider these stages, we see that there is a growing detachment form nama and rupa. It takes a few stages before one realizes their falling away, that stage needs more detachment. ------- J: I like the use of in "Transcendental Dependent Arising; A > Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta" by Bhikkhu Bodhi > (The Wheel Publication No. 277/278) because that is more optimistic > than the traditional DO-list. --- N: This is also traditional, the D.O. in reverse, because there is the eradication of ignorance. I have the booklet. BTW, no trouble for me to take a Survey book from Thailand and send it to you. You said that you downloaded it, but let me know if you want the book. Nina. 53763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sati and focussing nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 17-12-2005 03:25 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Nina, before someone has knowledge and vision of release, > yatabuta naana has arisen. This means that he understands anatta, > even though he might not have the knowledge of a sotapanna. Are you > saying that (supramundane) right view begins when he understands > anatta? ------ N: The understanding of anattaa is developing. Even when one understands this is nama, this is rupa, it already implies; thus, it is not a person, not a self. However, only the sotaapanna has eradicated the attaa view for good. --------- Now from you other post: M: It is possible just to see the colours and shapes and not process it > into an object/pannati. This takes a lot of concentration. ------- N: I notice that you emphasize concentration. I take it you mean concentration with kusala citta. Concentration arises with every citta, also with lobha. Here is already a problem: cittas arise and fall away so fast, hard to know when exactly kusala, when akusala. --------- M:It is > possible to experience it first (rupa), then experience sanna > kicking in and giving it meaning ('sound of a bird'). It is even > possible to experience ear consciousness going to the ear, then > phassa happening, giving rise to the sound, but this is much later. ------- N: Suppose one concentrates on seeing: seeing, seeing, but then it has fallen away already and one thinks about it, thinks of a concept of seeing. I do not see how one could hold seeing and visible object, even for a little while. It is gone already before we realize it. ---------- M: Just for a moment, isnt it possible to see the computer screen > without thinking 'computer screen'? Surely it is possible. The more > difficult bit is to maintain it so that you can see a new stimulus > arising. we are always late in this. ------ N: People are afraid not to be in time to catch a reality. But if one thinks in this way there is no understanding of the fact that whatever arises does so because of its own conditions. Nobody can evoke dhammas. The method of samatha is different from vipassana. As I see vipassana: dhammas appear because of their own conditions, there is no person who can make them appear or create them. Also sati arises because of its won conditions, there is no person who can make it arise. As we read in the satipatthanasutta, no matter the monk is walking, sitting...eating, talking, he can be aware of dhammas. One can sit, but one does not have ot, no rule. If one tries to focus on visible object, there is thinking, no awareness of the present dhamma. But if one still does because one has accumulated such inclination, also the act of focussing is a kind of nama, non-self. What I just wrote may not make much sense to you, you have heard it before, but anyway, I just post it. M: A monk once told me that it is like sati and arammana running a > race. The day sati goes before the arammana there is insight. ------ N: Sati can follow the arammana that appears. It could not go before it. Then it would be sati without arammana, how? Sati is aware of an object and at the same time paññaa can understand its true nature. That is why direct awareness of what appears right now (not holding it, no thinking of a concept about it) is a necessary condition for direct understanding of its true nature. ------ Your remark that maggacittas and phalacittas are not mentioned as such in the suttas. Understandanble, because often realities are explained in a conventional way, thus as four pairs of persons. We also meet the expressions of Path and Fruit. Nina. 53764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 593 ) nilovg Dear Azita, op 17-12-2005 07:34 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > azita: what if there is sati that knows visible object, is this not > sammaa-sati? ------ N: Sati is aware, pañña understands. Sammaa-sati: when it is directly aware of that characteristic that appears now. It accompanies sammaa-ditthi, right understanding of the eightfold Path. Nina. 53765 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Harry, > Usually this alludes to the second jhaana where the coarse jhanafactor ... Dear Nina, Harry Thank you Nina for answering Harry. My topic is an other one: my intuition is saying me to know more about the monk Subhuti, I think I can learn something from him (don't know yet what but I trust this intuition) I found a third Sutta text on him In "The Exposition of Non-Conflict" (MN 139, translation Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) the Buddha says at the end of the rather long Sutta, suddenly (to me) mentioning Subhuti: "Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: `We shall know the state with conflict and we shall know the state without conflict, and knowing these, we shall entered upon the way without conflict.' Now, bhikkhus, Subhuti is a clansman who has entered upon the way without conflict." He must have been a wise man. Harry, I could not find the Warder text, but that's no problem to me: I think it's too "technical". Metta Joop 53766 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 597 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > ------------------------ > H: > Example; when I hold a cup the cup has to be grasped by > fingers. When trying so there arise movements of bending and > straightening of fingers. > > Even before these movements are the thoughts that lead to these > movements. 20 daily activities will be described in the coming posts. -------------------------- I like this post and agree with all of it. As usual, however, I am looking for something to disagree with, and I suspect it will come in the next instalment. :-) As you explain, the underlying realities have to be known - regardless of whatever illusory activity we may think we are engaged in. I suspect, however, that (in the next instalment) you will be recommending we concentrate on some of those activities. To me, that implies you do not fully accept their illusoriness. You refer to the activity of 'holding a cup' but who is to say it is THE activity at any one time? Wouldn't it be just as true (and just as false) to say we were 'inhaling air' or 'sitting' or 'looking to the front' or 'hearing the sound of nearby traffic' 'feeling the heat of the sun' 'touching the chair and the floor' and so on? Why would a meditator single out one of those concurrent conventional activities ("I am holding a cup") and ignore the others? I say it is because he does not fully accept their illusoriness. Ken H --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Thanks for your reply. The conventional activity is 'holding a cup'. As the practitioner is holding a cap in his mind the understanding on conventional acivity will be like 'I am holding a cup' as you said. But meditation teachers usually instruct just to note 'holding..holding..holding'. For beginners this will lead to the idea of holding. But with continuing study and with practice even though me might mentally note as 'holding..holding..holding' he will perceive only 'touching of cold-warmth, pressure, firmness'. When he really feels hardness the mental wording 'holding..holding..holding' just become a vehicle that carries hardness or temperature or pressure. We used to say 'the truck arrives'. Someone who hears this understand that 'the goods arrive' and he will not think of 'the truck'. But for the beginners they will think of the truvk itself first and later they will think about what goods it carries. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53767 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. kenhowardau Hi Howard, Nina and all, ----------------------------------- Nina: > > I am not so in the mood of debating, but I can't help thinking of Rob K's > quote from the Visuddhimagga: > There is a Path but no goer. > > ............. Howard: > As I see it, figuratively there is each of these, but literally there is neither. By the way, we are in agreement: I'm not in a debating mood either. :-) ------------------------------------- I think debate is useful, but only in matters that can be proved one way or the other. We know that the Visuddhimagga says there is a path but no goer on it, and I think we can agree, can we not, that this means 'literally there is a path, but only figuratively is there any goer on the path?' If we can't agree that that is the meaning of the text, then debate will be useful in reaching agreement. However, debate over whether the Visuddhimagga itself is correct or incorrect would be futile. Ken H 53768 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's Dependent Origination htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo (Attn. Charles D.), Your reply to Charles below led to another question: What knowledge about D.O. that anagamis have but sotapannas don't have? Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep ( Charles and interested members), D.O will be the same as the basis in all case. But there will be some difference in understanding by different individuals (12 puggala). 4 individuals are puthujana and they are full of defilements. Among them 3 have little understanding. The 4th puthujana is tihetuka individual and he or she may understand theoretically. But he will not understand as much as sotapanna can. Because he or she does not really know there is no self. Anaagams will have much more understanding than sotapanna. Because sotapanna do not know eradication of dosa and kaama raaga. If sotapanna knew D.O very well as in case of anaagam he or she would not cry (as in case of Venerable Aananda when The Buddha did parinibbana). Sotapanna may still cry because they still have dosa tendency and they express as pariytthaana kilesaa and cry with tearing eyes. Why this happens? Because they (sotapanna) do not know 'avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaara'. Anaagam do know D.O. but with more understanding than sotapanna and as he knows avijjaa better than sotapanna he or she would not cry or angry or disturbed. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53769 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > My topic is an other one: my intuition is saying me to know more > about the monk Subhuti, I think I can learn something from him (don't > know yet what but I trust this intuition) > > I found a third Sutta text on him > In "The Exposition of Non-Conflict" (MN 139, translation Bhikkhu > Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) the Buddha says at the end of the rather > long Sutta, suddenly (to me) mentioning Subhuti: > > "Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: `We shall > know the state with conflict and we shall know the state without > conflict, and knowing these, we shall entered upon the way without > conflict.' Now, bhikkhus, Subhuti is a clansman who has entered upon > the way without conflict." > He must have been a wise man. .... S: Also, in AN, Bk of Ones, ch X1V, ‘Pre-eminent Ones’, we read that that Subhuti was chief among the Budha’s disciples with regard to ‘live (remote) in peace’(ara.na-vihaari.m) and also chief among the disciples ‘worthy of offerings’. Apparently the commentary to this sutta gives a lot of detail. A summary of the commentary detail can be found in the commentary to Thag 1.1, Subhuti which you quoted. Summarising this further (a bit long to type out for now) from Mrs R.D’s translation- Briefly, Subhuti was the nephew of Anathapindika. He had made a ‘resolve’ under Padumuttara Buddha aeons before and was present when Jetavana was presented to the Buddha. After listening to the teachings, he ordained, mastered the teachings and became an arahant with jhana through the development of metta as basis. It says that when he went round the houses for alms, he’d experience this jhana, receiving alms as he ‘emerged’ from jhana. This was said to bring great rewards to the householders and he became chief among the disciples worthy of gifts. So it was said by the Buddha that ‘Subhuti, bhikkhus, is the chief of my bhikkhu-disciples in universal (anodissaka) amity, and chief among such as are held worthy of gifts.’ Subhuti went to Rajagaha, but King Bimbisara forgot to prepare a place for him and so he had no shelter. Because of his good qualities, it didn’t rain thanks to the rain deva, but the people suffered from a drought as a result. The king then made him a leaf-hut and Subhuti declared that he was free from danger from without or within: “Well-roofed and pleasant is my little hut, And screened from winds – Rain at thy will, thou god! My heart is well composed, my heart is free, And ardent is my mood. Now rain, god! Rain.” (Mrs R-D's transl) ***** S: We discussed these lines some time ago too, but don't have a reference to the old posts. I think Phil started the thread. I hope some of this detail is what you are looking for. Metta, Sarah ========= 53770 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 600 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 20 daily activities to be contemplated are 1. contemplation on 'going to somewhere' (abhikkante) 2. contemplation on 'coming back from somewhere'(patikkante) 3. contemplation on 'looking straight ahead'(aalokite) 4. contemplation on 'looking elsewhere'(vilokite) 5. contemplation on 'bending'(sami.mjite) 6. contemplation on 'straightening'(pasaarite) 7. contemplation on 'handling'(dhaarane) 8. contemplation on 'eating'(asite) 9. contemplation on 'drinking'(pite) 10.contemplation on 'biting/gnawing/cracking/chewing'(khayite) 11. contemplation on 'licking/savouring/tasting/smacking'(saayite) 12. contemplation on 'defecation'(uccaara kamme) 13. contemplation on 'urination'(passaava kamme) 14. contemplation on 'walking'(gate) 15. contemplation on 'standing/stopping walking'(htite) 16. contemplation on 'sitting'(nissinne) 17. contemplation on 'going asleep'(sutte) 18. contemplation on 'waking up afresh'(jaagarite) 19. contemplation on 'speaking'(bhasite) 20. contemplation on 'silence'(tunhnibhaave) 11. contemplation on 'licking/savouring/tasting/smacking'[saayite] After having meal one may clean up his lip by licking after which he may use tissue or towel. Or he or she may lick some powder like medicine powder for the reason of health. At that time he has not to note the idea on palm or tongue or powder but his attention has to be at 'movement of tongue' 'touches at tongue' 'taste at tongue'. This means that there are many ruupa arising at the 'moment of licking'. 12. contemplation on 'defecation' [uccaara kamme] The whole act has to be attended and mindfulness has not to lax. Otherwise there might arise ayoniso manasikaara or 'unwise attention' and dosa may arise (because of tense sensation} or lobha may arise (because of release of unpleasant feelings). Here 'breathing in' 'holding breath' 'squeezing' 'relaxing' etc may be noted. 13. contemplation on urination [passaava kamme] The same applies when we go for urination. The attention is at conventional act. But the mind has to attend realities and not at any concepts or names like 'urination..urination..'. 14. contemplation on 'going/walking/moving' [gate] 15. contemplation on 'standing/stopping movement' [.thite] 16. contemplation on sitting [nissinne] These three daily activities are almost always mixed. When we are standing we might need to sit to work and then stand again and then walk away for some other reason. At those times, when moving like going that activity has to be understood through realities. The same applies to all three acticities. 17. contemplation on 'going asleep' [sutte] Sometimes or occasionally for beginners and frequently for advanced practitioner they do know they are physically exhausted and just going asleep. Even at that time they may have clear mentality. That is there is no sloth and torpor. If they know they are going to sleep this act must be contemplated as 'going to sleep..going to sleep..' and this ends up with complete rest. 18. contemplation on 'waking up afresh' [jaagarite] Sometimes some do not wake clearly and they fall asleep again for further few minutes. But some wake up in the state of very clear mentality. As soon as this is known then the practitioner has to contemplate on his wakefulness that is he wake up afresh. They may note as 'waking..waking..' 19. contemplation on 'speaking' [bhaasite] When start to break the silence the practitioner has to contemplate on it and if possible he has to note that he is speaking while he is speaking even though this sound very very difficult. Before the start of speaking there do arise ideas. If this stage can well be recognise then there will be less and less possibility of arising bad speech of any kind. 20. contemplation on 'silence' [tu.mh.nibhaave] This only applies when the practioner is silence and while others are speaking or when the practitioner stops speaking and goes into silence. This has to be noble silence. These 20 activities are as examples and there are many. But it is not the idea but to attend properly. When there is no particular object to have a great interest then 'the breathing' has to be re- attended. When a posture has changed recently then that new posture has to be contemplated. Postures can be contemplated between 'in-breath and out-breath' if there is a possibility of straying of mind. From a stable posture when one has to do some specific activity of daily life then he has to contemplate on that. Otherwise 'the breathing' has to be primary object of attention [at least in body- contemplation]. As long as mindfulness is at ruupa (or naama) while concentrating on the body along with other right factors that mindfulness can be called as right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53771 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:38am Subject: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year htootintnaing Dear all, Seasonal greeting. 'Merry Christmas and Happy New Year' May you be well and happy. I will be away for about two weeks during Christmas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53772 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/20/05 7:09:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard, Nina and all, > > ----------------------------------- > Nina: >>I am not so in the mood of debating, but I can't help > thinking of Rob K's > >quote from the Visuddhimagga: > >There is a Path but no goer. > >>............. > Howard: > > As I see it, figuratively there is each of these, but literally there > is neither. By the way, we are in agreement: I'm not in a debating > mood either. :-) > ------------------------------------- > > I think debate is useful, but only in matters that can be proved one > way or the other. We know that the Visuddhimagga says there is a > path but no goer on it, and I think we can agree, can we not, that > this means 'literally there is a path, but only figuratively is there > any goer on the path?' ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know for a fact what he meant. If he meant that there is a path as a momentary phenomenon, a paramattha dhamma, then I think he was expressing a belief at odds with the idea of path expressed in the suttas. The path discussed in the suttas was a series of events and achevements typically extending over many, many lifetimes. But, as I see it, the primary thrust of what he said here was a matter of emphasizing no-self. The point, as I see it, was that there is a path, and a going along the path, but no goer. That is, there is a sequence of impersonal events that we call the path, but there is no person to whom or in whom that sequence of events occurs. -------------------------------------------------- > > If we can't agree that that is the meaning of the text, then debate > will be useful in reaching agreement. However, debate over whether > the Visuddhimagga itself is correct or incorrect would be futile. > > Ken H > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas jonoabb Hi Tep and others Just a short follow-on to my earlier post, to give a couple of textual references, the first from BB's translation of SN and the second from BB's translation of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha, with commentarial notes. A. SN 55:5 (trans. CDB) This short sutta is a conversation between the Buddha and Sariputta, where the Buddha asks questions of Sariputta and then confirms the answers given. The questions and answers are these: ******************************** What is a factor for stream-entry? Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. What is the stream? This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. What is a stream-enterer? One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan. ******************************** A couple of points to highlight. 1. The NEP and the 'stream' of stream-entry (and beyond) are one and the same thing. 2. As regards the gaining of stream-entry (i.e., for the uninstructed worldling), the relevant factors are the 4 factors given here. To my knowledge, one does not find the NEP mentioned in this context. B. CMA Ch VII, #38 The Four Noble Truths Guide to #38 (BB's summary of the commentarial texts) ******************************** "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path". In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of 8 cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths. It should be noted that while in the section on the requisites of enlightenment, the 8 path factors may be either mundane or supramundane, in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths they are exclusively supramundane. ******************************** I see this passage as saying that, in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, the factors of the NEP are the 8 cetasikas that arise at the moment of path and fruition consciousness, that is to say, that accompany moments of supramundane consciousness. Just wanted to indicate that I am simply reiterating things that are readily found in the texts ;-)) Jon Jonothan Abbott wrote: >To my understanding, the terms 'noble', 'eightfold' and >'path' each have specific meanings: >- the 'path' is the path that begins at stream-entry and ends with >arahantship >- it is 'noble' because it refers to the 4 stages of enlightenment, and >is the path of the ariyans >- it is 'eightfold' (Pali: attha-anga, literally, eight-factored) >because it has eight factors or components, these being the factors >(i.e., mental factors, or cetasikas) that are present at each moment of >path consciousness. > >So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. > > 53774 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. seisen_au Hi Nina, Ken, Howard and All, Comments and Questions below. > > ----------------------------------- > > Nina: >>I am not so in the mood of debating, but I can't help > > thinking of Rob K's > > >quote from the Visuddhimagga: > > >There is a Path but no goer. > > >>............. > > Howard: > > > As I see it, figuratively there is each of these, but literally there > > is neither. By the way, we are in agreement: I'm not in a debating > > mood either. :-) > > ------------------------------------- > > > > I think debate is useful, but only in matters that can be proved one > > way or the other. We know that the Visuddhimagga says there is a > > path but no goer on it, and I think we can agree, can we not, that > > this means 'literally there is a path, but only figuratively is there > > any goer on the path?' > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't know for a fact what he meant. If he meant that there is a > path as a momentary phenomenon, a paramattha dhamma, then I think he was > expressing a belief at odds with the idea of path expressed in the suttas. ---- The statement `there is a path but no goer' is a little confusing to me. To my understanding `path' is not a paramattha dhamma, just as there is no paramattha dhamma that is `jhana'. My thinking is that just as the convention a living being can be said when the aggregates arise, the convention `path' can be said when specific cetasikas arise together, with a specific object, namely Nibbana. Can a collection of paramattha dhammas be call a paramattha dhamma? Steve 53775 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - It is good that we are trying to understand understanding better. >Nina: > I try to catch up, finding this post of yours. > I try to answer shortly, if you do not mind. Tep: It is fair enough, Nina. Just keep on reciprocating on the important issues. ............ >N: > I am inclined to use the term right understanding also for >intellectual understanding that is correct. Thus, a matter of >language. It grows and there are many levels of it. Tep: I maintain that it is better to make it clear, otherwise people will be confused simply because there are several levels of understanding like you have said. Even the common sense (a form of understanding or knowledge) has several shades -- for instance, an expert's common sense is far above that of the ordinary, untrained people. ............ >N: > The ariyan cannot become a non-ariyan anymore, I do not know >whether I expressed myself in an unclear fashion. Tep: I like that answer this time. But it was not clear in your earlier post (>> N: And also: it is momentary, we do not possess it. It arises and falls away together with all the other factors.) Warm regards, Tep ====== 53776 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. upasaka_howard Hi, Steve (and Nina, Ken, and all) - In a message dated 12/20/05 8:41:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, seisen_@... writes: > My thinking is that > just as the convention a living being can be said when the aggregates > arise, the convention `path' can be said when specific cetasikas > arise together, with a specific object, namely Nibbana. Can a > collection of paramattha dhammas be call a paramattha dhamma? > > ======================== This is a good point, Steve. Even taking 'path' to refer to a momentary event, a very strange usage by the way, it is still an aggregate of a citta and a number of cetasikas, which, as you rightly point out, is not a paramattha dhamma. For that matter, the so called person at any point in time could also be considered an aggregate! On the other hand, it is all really a matter of how one is using language. If one conceptually isolates the awareness aspect (citta) from the aggregate that is a moment of awakening, and calls it "magga", then magga is a paramattha dhamma. To my mind, that moment of path consciousness (the mere citta), or, for that matter, even the aggregate of that citta together with the associated cetasikas, is a very, very far cry from "the path" that the Buddha discussed in the suttas, but, hey, folks can use language however they wish so long as they are clear as to the meaning they intend. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding nilovg Hi Tep, I think it is still not clear. Paññaa cetasika, also the ariyan's arises and falls away. It is momentary! But, his accumulated tendencies have changed: no longer the anusaya of wrong view, and other ones, depending on his stage of enlightenment. Thus, taking that into account, we can say that he is a changed "person". Nina. op 20-12-2005 15:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The ariyan cannot become a non-ariyan anymore, I do not know >> whether I expressed myself in an unclear fashion. > > Tep: > > I like that answer this time. But it was not clear in your earlier > post (>> N: And also: it is momentary, we do not possess it. It arises > and falls away together with all the other factors.) 53778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. nilovg Hi Steve, Howard, Ken and all, Dispeller I, p. 108: op 20-12-2005 14:40 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@...: > The statement `there is a path but no goer' is a little confusing > to me. ... the convention `path' can be said when specific cetasikas > arise together, with a specific object, namely Nibbana. ------ N: That is right. But when speaking of the mundane path: nama and rupa. ---- S:Can a > collection of paramattha dhammas be call a paramattha dhamma? ------- N: They are still cetasika paramattha dhammas, even though they arise together. Citta and cetasikas always arise together, that does not make them less paramatthas. And what is important, don't forget Kh Sujin's exhortation: The development of the path (all those cetasikas) is right now. Right understanding of the momentary aspect of the Path helps us to understand that we cannot possess sati and paññaa. We cannot make them arise at will. It also helps us not to see the Path as something abstract or theoretical. Nina. 53779 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - This is a good point. If the ariyan raises his panna level, that is equivalent to a lower panna cetasika falls away. And it is guaranteed that the next arising panna cetasika does not fall back (to a lower level) is because he has eradicated a certain anusaya. I buy that. Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > I think it is still not clear. > Paññaa cetasika, also the ariyan's arises and falls away. It is momentary! > But, his accumulated tendencies have changed: no longer the anusaya of wrong view, and other ones, depending on his stage of enlightenment. Thus, taking that into account, we can say that he is a changed "person". > Nina. > op 20-12-2005 15:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > The ariyan cannot become a non-ariyan anymore, I do not know > >> whether I expressed myself in an unclear fashion. > > > > Tep: > > > > I like that answer this time. But it was not clear in your earlier > > post (>> N: And also: it is momentary, we do not possess it. It arises and falls away together with all the other factors.) > 53780 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: Reply to Sukinder's Questions -- Part I buddhistmedi... Dear Sukin - I understand. Your decision to end the discussion was a wise one. {:->)} Thank you for still having hope for future discussions with me. Yours truly, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I have been somewhat busy these past few days. I have not been able > to catch up with the posts here, less so to have time to compose a reply > to you. While reading both of your replies, I thought of many points to > address. In the meantime however, I had also read some of your other > posts in discussions with others, and while reading one of these, it > occurred to me that I would be more or less saying the same things I > have said before. And since it seemed to me that your confidence in > your view has somewhat been consolidated in these discussion with > others, anything that I write is not going to make any difference to you. > So I have decided to drop this discussion. Perhaps in the future, there > will be an opportunity to discuss these very same things, but from > different angles. > > Hope you understand. > > Metta, > Sukin. > (snipped) 53781 From: nina Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:43am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 14, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 53782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding nilovg Hi Tep, I do not know whether you are comparing stages of enlightenment. I am thinking of a moment of paññaa in daily life and then seeing or dosa. This is possible for the sotaapanna. He does not have paññaa continuously. Nina. op 20-12-2005 18:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > If the ariyan raises his panna level, that is > equivalent to a lower panna cetasika falls away. And it is guaranteed > that the next arising panna cetasika does not fall back (to a lower > level) is because he has eradicated a certain anusaya. 53783 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 601 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to naama or ruupa at any given time with clear understanding. Attending to naama or ruupa happen when one attend one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' 4. 99 contemplations on body part [pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba or section on attending at disgustiveness of 32 body parts] There are 32 body parts. There are 3 different contemplations. One on own body, another on others' body and yet the third on 'both own and others body'. So there are 96 contemplations on body parts. Extra 3 contemplations on these body parts are contemplation on origination, contemplation on dissolution, contemplation on both origination and dissolution. So there are altogether 96 + 3 = 99 contemplations on body part. What are these 32 body parts? They are 20 solid parts (pathavii) and 12 liquid parts (apo). a) 20 solid parts (pathavii dhaatu or earth-element) 1. kesaa (hair) 2. lomaa (body-hairs) 3. nakhaa(nails) 4. dantaa(teeth) 5. taco (skin) 6. mamsam (flesh) 7. hnaaru (sinew_ligments) 8. atthi (bone) 9. atthiminjam(bone marrow) 10.vakkam (kidney) 11. hadayam (heart) 12. yakanam (liver) 13. kilomakam(membrane) 14. pihakam (spleen) 15. papphaasam (lung) 16. antam (intestine) 17. antagunam(mesentery) 18. udariyam (gorge_stomach contents) 19. kariisam (feces_rectum contents) 20. matthalungam (brain) b) 12 liquid parts (apo dhaatu or water element) 1. pittam (bile) 2. sehmam (phlegm) 3. pubbo (pus) 4. lohitam (blood) 5. sedo (sweat) 6. medo (mass of fat) 7. assu (tear) 8. vasaa(liquid fat) 9. khelo (saliva) 10.simghaanikaa (mucus) 11.lasikaa(synovial fluid) 12.muttam (urine) These are 32 different body parts that The Buddha described. In kaayaanupassana or contemplation on body these 32 body parts are to be contemplated as a support to meditation of satipatthaana. When a part is contemplated there arise a consciousness that directs to the idea of that body part. And the consciousness just stays for a while and then it passes away. When the consciousness has passed away the object also disappear. This meditation can bring up jhaana or absorption. But this contemplation on body is not intended for jhaana. This is evident by inclusion of 3 extra contemplations on body part, which are not related to jhaana or absorption. Some would say 'these 32 body parts' are pannatti and they are not the object of satipatthaana. These are what The Buddha preached in mahaasatipatthaana sutta (Digha Nikaaya DN 22). When the practitioner stays according to what The Buddha taught he is not depending on anything in this world on this earth and he is temporarily freed from binding and temporarily liberated when he or she is staying on contemplation on body. The Buddha said 'Bounded below by soles of feet, boundried above with hair, boardering covering by skin there are 32 different body parts inside of that skin-bag of body. Like a man, who has a good eye, who releases so called a bag full of different seeds and then contemplate on each kind of seed like this is 'rice', this is 'wheat', this is 'barley' etc etc; the practitioner (bhikkhu) has to stay contemplating this is 'hair', this is 'hairs', this is 'nail', this is 'tooth', etc etc. This include in body-contemplation or kaayaanupassanaa because it is related with the physical body. The background idea is to crack down lust (raaga, sexual desire, lustrous desire). They might sound pannatti but they are not groundless like proper name 'Mr Watt'. They do have ruupa-base and when contemplated the mind becomes calm and then that calm mind can be contemplated as naama. Mindfulness has to be any of 261, or to be on any of feeling or to be on consciousness or to be on dhamma, which are not self and are not controllable. Such mindfulness along with other path-factors is said to be right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53784 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (and other friends) - I wonder if you plan to pursue the discussion on NEP till everybody reaches the same conclusion, or just to establish relevant definitions pertaining to NEP for your own reference? >Jon: 1. The NEP and the 'stream' of stream-entry (and beyond) are one and the same thing. Tep: The "and beyond" is not clear in the quoted sutta SN 55:5. .............. >Jon: 2. As regards the gaining of stream-entry (i.e., for the uninstructed worldling), the relevant factors are the 4 factors given here. To my knowledge, one does not find the NEP mentioned in this context. Tep: Relevant, yes. But there are other factors of stream-entry in other suttas that should be considered. NEP is in the context of the stream-entry factors because stream-entry is for stream-enterers to enter and the stream-enterers' qualifications are stated in term of the stream-entry factors. ................ >Jon: BB's summary of the commentarial texts : ..."In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of 8 cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths." >Jon: I see this passage as saying that, in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, the factors of the NEP are the 8 cetasikas that arise at the moment of path and fruition consciousness, that is to say, that accompany moments of supramundane consciousness. Tep: We should keep in mind that the quoted words of BB are in the context of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha commentarial notes -- i.e. it is entirely separated from the sutta SN 55:5. It is not fair to build your own bridge to connect the two. Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep and others > > Just a short follow-on to my earlier post, to give a couple of textual > references, the first from BB's translation of SN and the second from > BB's translation of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha, with commentarial notes. > > A. SN 55:5 (trans. CDB) > > This short sutta is a conversation between the Buddha and Sariputta, > where the Buddha asks questions of Sariputta and then confirms the > answers given. The questions and answers are these: > > ******************************** > What is a factor for stream-entry? > > Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing > the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a > factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > > What is the stream? > > This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right > intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > fright mindfulness, right concentration. > > What is a stream-enterer? > > One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this > venerable one of such a name and clan. > ******************************** > > A couple of points to highlight. > > 1. The NEP and the 'stream' of stream-entry (and beyond) are one and > the same thing. > 2. As regards the gaining of stream-entry (i.e., for the uninstructed > worldling), the relevant factors are the 4 factors given here. To my > knowledge, one does not find the NEP mentioned in this context. > > B. CMA Ch VII, #38 The Four Noble Truths > Guide to #38 (BB's summary of the commentarial texts) > > ******************************** > "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble > Eightfold Path". > In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of 8 > cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors arisen in the cittas of > the four supramundane paths. > It should be noted that while in the section on the requisites of > enlightenment, the 8 path factors may be either mundane or supramundane, > in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths they are exclusively supramundane. > ******************************** > > I see this passage as saying that, in the teaching of the Four Noble > Truths, the factors of the NEP are the 8 cetasikas that arise at the > moment of path and fruition consciousness, that is to say, that > accompany moments of supramundane consciousness. > > Just wanted to indicate that I am simply reiterating things that are > readily found in the texts ;-)) > > Jon > > > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > >To my understanding, the terms 'noble', 'eightfold' and > >'path' each have specific meanings: > >- the 'path' is the path that begins at stream-entry and ends with > >arahantship > >- it is 'noble' because it refers to the 4 stages of enlightenment, and > >is the path of the ariyans > >- it is 'eightfold' (Pali: attha-anga, literally, eight-factored) > >because it has eight factors or components, these being the factors > >(i.e., mental factors, or cetasikas) that are present at each moment of > >path consciousness. > > > >So the eight path-factors are the factors that constitute a path moment. > > > > > 53785 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear all, > > Seasonal greeting. > > 'Merry Christmas and Happy New Year' > > May you be well and happy. I will be away for about two weeks during > Christmas. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Strange isn't it - for Buddhists, to be wishing each other Merry Christmas :-) But here in Australia, rather than a religious festival, Christmas has long been more of a Family Festival - with loved ones coming together usually for the sharing of meals and exchanging of gifts - many travelling from around the globe to be together at Christmas time. To Htoo, and everyone here at dsg, during the holiday festive season, and always - May you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, May you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well- being. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 53786 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Let me clarify the unclear issue to you. > > Tep: > > If the ariyan raises his panna level, that is equivalent to a lower panna cetasika falls away. And it is guaranteed that the next arising panna cetasika does not fall back (to a lower level) is because he has eradicated a certain anusaya. > > >Nina: > I do not know whether you are comparing stages of enlightenment. I am thinking of a moment of paññaa in daily life and then seeing or dosa. This is possible for the sotaapanna. He does not have paññaa >continuously. No, I was not comparing the stages of enlightenment on the Path. I was agreeing with you and trying to say further that when a panna-cetasika fell away the sotapanna would not fall back to non-ariya because the old anusaya (that would cause such falling back) had been eradicated earlier. It is just my understanding with no sutta referencing this time :-)). Warm regards, Tep ====== 53787 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year buddhistmedi... Hi, Chris (and Htoo) - I was thinking that I would write to tell Htoo that I would gladly accept just "Happy New Year", when I saw your post. Thank you, Htoo. May you have a great New Year yourself, and don't forget to meditate. Wishing you and yours the best, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > Seasonal greeting. > > > > 'Merry Christmas and Happy New Year' > > > > May you be well and happy. I will be away for about two weeks > during > > Christmas. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Strange isn't it - for Buddhists, to be wishing each other Merry > Christmas :-) > But here in Australia, rather than a religious festival, Christmas > has long been more of a Family Festival - with loved ones coming > together usually for the sharing of meals and exchanging of gifts - > many travelling from around the globe to be together at Christmas > time. > > To Htoo, and everyone here at dsg, during the holiday festive > season, and always - > May you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, > May you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well- > being. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 53788 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:41am Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Fragmented, Movie-Frame, Packet Perspective upasaka_howard Hi, all - Abhidhamma, and more so, it seems, the commentarial tradition, presume a theory of discrete quanta as being what are "real". This conceptual picture is one which few if any of its proponents have direct knowledge of, but even though this theory is not directly confirmed and is not put forth in the suttas, it is taken to be Buddha's truth (as opposed to Gospel truth ;-), and everything that is then taken up for consideration is forced to fit this scheme. Sometimes that is easy to do. Sometimes it seems to require mental contortions. I would like to point out that this scheme of pluralistic realism, while not necessarily false, need not be presumed as necessarily true. Except for moments of complete unconsciousness, there are no gaps in the experiential stream. And letting go of the Buddhist "atomic theory" still leaves much of Abhidhamma and all of the sutta material intact, I believe. Without any assumption of this packet theory, it yet remains true that at any time, there is consciousness, there is objective content of that consciousness (arammana), and there is a considerable collection of concomitant features, factors, and operations going by the name of 'cetasikas'. At any time we look, if our sight is keen enough, we observe a sight or sound or taste or smell or bodily sensation or mind-door operation presenting itself as object along with concomitant feeling, recognition, and perhaps emotions of various sorts and reactions such as craving and aversion. Sometimes, if our powers of observation are keen enough, we may note the cessation of these, and even if not, or if, in fact, there are no sharp beginnings and endings at all, we will still see later that that which was no longer is. Thus, impermanence is still very much observable and accounted for. All the Dhamma including the tilakkhana, the four noble truths, dependent origination, all of it, remains without the atomic perspective. (Or so it seems to me.) With metta, Howard P.S. This is how I see the matter. I expect most of you to disgree with me on this, and I'm not looking to defend my perspective as a "position". Actually, I think that "positions" are really unimportant. Only reality is important, and that isn't discovered by debate, but by looking and seeing. Part of what needs to be looked at, I believe, is our presuppositions. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53789 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year upasaka_howard Hi, Chris and Htoo - In a message dated 12/20/05 2:25:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > Naing > > Strange isn't it - for Buddhists, to be wishing each other Merry > Christmas :-) ------------------------------------------ Howard: And for a Jewish Buddhist to chime in and wish the same to both of you and all else here, which I certainly do! ;-) ------------------------------------------ > But here in Australia, rather than a religious festival, Christmas > has long been more of a Family Festival - with loved ones coming > together usually for the sharing of meals and exchanging of gifts - > many travelling from around the globe to be together at Christmas > time. ----------------------------------------- Howard: That's somewhat the same in the U.S., except the religious content is still strong as well. But a new phenomenon has arisen in the U.S. which I find odd and even a bit unsettling. Many department stores and other organizations seem to be running away from even mentioning Xmas, with the employees instructed to say "Happy Holidays," but never "Merry Christmas." It even goes so far as to call the department store Xmas tree a "holiday tree"! (As if there were a Chanukah tree or a Kwanzaa tree!) I wonder if they will soon be calling Chanukah menorahs "holiday candelabras"!! ;-) There seems to be a growing secularism/political correctness in the U.S. that I find a bit disturbing. Some Buddhists may be happy with this, thinking that it "strengthens the Buddhist hand," but I think such a view is short sighted. --------------------------------------------------- > > To Htoo, and everyone here at dsg, during the holiday festive > season, and always - > May you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, > May you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well- > being. > > metta > Chris ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53790 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 0:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sati and focussing matheesha333 Hi Nina, >M: Are you > > saying that (supramundane) right view begins when he understands > > anatta? > ------ > N: The understanding of anattaa is developing. Even when one understands > this is nama, this is rupa, it already implies; thus, it is not a person, > not a self. However, only the sotaapanna has eradicated the attaa view for > good. M: Yes, I agree with you. But it seems difficult to pin point exactly where things become supramundane. I think it is at the point of vimutti/magga-citta. But then it clashes with 'ariya' right view which arises before magga-citta. Perhaps samma nana which arises after right view, applies to even the sotapanna, and not just the arahath. This would bring the arising of the 'view' of a sotapanna closer to the point of vimutti (but doesnt entirely solve the problem :) ). Maybe the answer is not to worry too much about exactly when it becomes supramundane, after all it is just a classification! These are flashing moments away from each other. Doesnt really make a difference. > --------- > Now from you other post: > M: It is possible just to see the colours and shapes and not process it > > into an object/pannati. This takes a lot of concentration. > ------- > N: I notice that you emphasize concentration. I take it you mean > concentration with kusala citta. M: If lobha and dosa are acting there cannot be any concentration in a meditative sense. Ths mind is in a state of turmoil -there is no calm capable of seeing a dhamma arise and pass away. The samadhi of a jhana suppresses lobha because it imposes a state of calm - a state of mind which cannot give rise to lobha. > Concentration arises with every citta, also with lobha. Here is already a > problem: cittas arise and fall away so fast, hard to know when exactly > kusala, when akusala. M: A very weak concentration would invariably be present in such situations. I believe that abhidhamma doesnt speak of intensities (angry vs very angry?). I'm not talking about this type of weak concentration. Such a 'concentration' cannot see anything because we all have it anyway. A type of concentration which is present when lobha is also present wont give rise to a degree of calmness of mind which enables us to see the dhammas, because in such states the mind is in turmoil. As for avijja, we start with the latent tendency. If we are actively thinking (avijja being experessed) there is no concentration anyway. > --------- > M:It is > > possible to experience it first (rupa), then experience sanna > > kicking in and giving it meaning ('sound of a bird'). It is even > > possible to experience ear consciousness going to the ear, then > > phassa happening, giving rise to the sound, but this is much later. > ------- > N: Suppose one concentrates on seeing: seeing, seeing, but then it has > fallen away already and one thinks about it, thinks of a concept of seeing. M: You are thinking of the mahasi vipassana method I believe. That 'seeing, seeing' is indeed just thinking. I am talking of only experiencing without thinking again after it has fallen away. You are right that, that is just a concept. ---------------------- N: > I do not see how one could hold seeing and visible object, even for a little > while. It is gone already before we realize it. M: There is no holding. 'We' are only experiencing. 'the watcher (which doesnt exist) ' 'consciousness' 'object' all arise and pass away at the same time. The duality or the need to hold doesnt exist. Its like floating in a river and being taken away by the current. No need to attempt to stand still against the current. You are the current. > ---------- > M: Just for a moment, isnt it possible to see the computer screen > > without thinking 'computer screen'? Surely it is possible. The more > > difficult bit is to maintain it so that you can see a new stimulus > > arising. we are always late in this. > ------ > N: People are afraid not to be in time to catch a reality. But if one thinks > in this way there is no understanding of the fact that whatever arises does > so because of its own conditions. Nobody can evoke dhammas. M: Ofcourse no one can evoke dhammas. The buddha has said that avijja persists because there is no samadhi (sorry i cant find the quote now). It is happening now. The problem is 'only' our inability to experience it because there isnt enough sati or samadhi. Catching dhammas is only a conventional and figurative way of explaining this lack. Everything arises from conditions. We are the conditions. Hence even our effort to experience, is not abnormal in someway. It is also conditioned accordingly. It is also made up of dhammas. It is all part of the river. We can experience our effort at trying to experince dhammas, and still understand the paramatta. N: > The method of samatha is different from vipassana. As I see vipassana: > dhammas appear because of their own conditions, there is no person who can > make them appear or create them. M: Absolutely. Samatha is only for teaching focus and calming the mind. N: Also sati arises because of its won > conditions, there is no person who can make it arise. M: Are you capable of focusing to read what is on this screen? If so you can focus on what is on your mind. The condition for that is this conversation (reading it-->understanding it-->intention to focus). Everything is obviously conditioned. Including intention and action. N: > As we read in the satipatthanasutta, no matter the monk is walking, > sitting...eating, talking, he can be aware of dhammas. One can sit, but one > does not have ot, no rule. M: Yes, nina! Sitting is good for training samatha, to develop calm through anapanasati. Vipassana is every moment of the day. N: > If one tries to focus on visible object, there is thinking, no awareness of > the present dhamma. M: Perhaps you will see that this is not the case always. The reason that vitakka vicara dissappears in the second jhana is a higher degree of samadhi. There is no thinking there. If we train our mind in samadhi, it can be done. N: > But if one still does because one has accumulated such inclination, also the > act of focussing is a kind of nama, non-self. M: yes of course. even experiencing the act can give rise to wisdom. N: > What I just wrote may not make much sense to you, you have heard it before, > but anyway, I just post it. M: Thank you Nina. I think it does make sense to me - atleast i understand your concerns and i think they are very reasobable. I also feel they can be overcome, perhaps by ways not immediately apparent. > M: A monk once told me that it is like sati and arammana running a > > race. The day sati goes before the arammana there is insight. > ------ > N: Sati can follow the arammana that appears. It could not go before it. M: You are right! It is just an figurative way of explaining the lack of sati/samadhi. > ------ N: > Your remark that maggacittas and phalacittas are not mentioned as such in > the suttas. Understandanble, because often realities are explained in a > conventional way, thus as four pairs of persons. We also meet the > expressions of Path and Fruit. M: Yes, I can see your thinking here. The Buddha does mention other dhammas though. Why not this? Has it been missed along the way? Did he never mention it? A puzzle. metta Matheesha ps- thank you for your kind comments about the post to James. For someone steeped in paramatta, I appreciate your ability to appreciate such things. 53791 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > op 17-12-2005 13:37 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@y...: > > > My question to you: Nina I'm really interested what you think of this > > ordered list, can you compare it with your frame of reference? > Dear Nina Thanks for your answers, it's difficult to imagine how you can work so concentrated every day again. Nina: "ñaa.na is another ord for pañña cetasika, thus, it is not a concept. It represents stages of pañña that is developing. The objects are the same: nama and rupa appearing now, but the understanding becomes clearer." Joop: Although Tep (and my wife) say I disagree with everything: I accept this completely. And I have faith that a (hardly aimed) result of my formal vipassana meditation will be some of the first nana's of this list. Nina: "This [Transcendental Dependent Arising] is also traditional, the D.O. in reverse, because there is the eradication of ignorance." Joop: I wait till Htoo has started his DO-thread; with 'traditional' I mean DO with her three life-times and her samsara-cycle. About the Survey: Sarah has convinced me not to be modest so I send Sukin my postal adress. So I think I get it soon (if not anybody is sending useless Christmas-cards). Metta Joop 53792 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Subhuti jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > My topic is an other one: my intuition is saying me to know more > > about the monk Subhuti, I think I can learn something from him (don't > > know yet ... Dear Sarah On this moment I can only say: thanks for this information, it's nearly more than I hoped to get. Stuff for study again Metta Joop > > I hope some of this detail is what you are looking for. 53793 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 0:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! matheesha333 Hi Tep, T:> The following is a subtle and non-argumentative way of saying that > quoting from books (commentaries, and even suttas) does not provide > great fruit and great benefit. > > >Math.: The sutta speaks of seeing eye-consciousness, contact etc > > as 'annataro'. For me the only way to do this, is to move away from > >conceptualisation (with or without wisdom) and into deep > >concentrated vipassana state. Otherwise seeing something like > >eye-consciousness as 'annataro' (seperate/nonsaelf) is purely > >conjecture. M: Learning is useful, but to only a certain degree. It has its limitations. Learning alone cannot give you insight into paramatta. There is a saying dont mistake the finger pointing at the moon, for the moon itself. I think most people here would agree with me on this. > Tep: I assume that you are not conjecturing yourself. So, what is the > non-conjecture meaning of 'annataro' that you have experienced > through the "deep concentrated vipassana state" ? M: Tep, I do not know what the buddha was thinking at the time, nor do i know whether those who translated magadhi to pali used the right pali word, nor do i know whether we understand the pali word 'annataro' in any accurate manner. Since there seems to be many translations of the same word, we can safely assume we don't! Annataro to me seems to suggest 'as other'. I guess this implies anatta as well. It also implies being able to see the dhammas seperately - seeing things bundled up makes us more prone to pannatti, which is why concentration is required for panna to arise, to see in detail. The self is understood when its components are seen seperately as the 5 aggregates. This type of seeing is possible only in vipassana. To appreciate things like eye-consciousness (which is very subtle) in this manner require much calm and concentration. That is what i meant. I think it is important to state what is possible. take care Matheesha 53794 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: origin of right view It is Vijja !! buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - Perhaps my sincere intention was interpreted incorrectly ! No, I did not ask you to explain your reason why "deep vipassana state" was necessary for the penetration of rupa & nama to know them as something separate (anataro). Why? Because I also believe that yathabhuta-nana is supported by concentration. No, I did not have a problem with the intellectual interpretation of anataro. I also understand that anataro is opposite to "being bundled together" (like khandhas). I sincerely wanted to know about your experiential understanding of anataro (through your deep concentrated vipassana states), because I thought you had had that kind of experience to share with us. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > > Tep: I assume that you are not conjecturing yourself. So, what is > the > > non-conjecture meaning of 'annataro' that you have experienced > > through the "deep concentrated vipassana state" ? > > M: Tep, I do not know what the buddha was thinking at the time, nor > do i know whether those who translated magadhi to pali used the right pali word, nor do i know whether we understand the pali > word 'annataro' in any accurate manner. Since there seems to be many > translations of the same word, we can safely assume we don't! > > Annataro to me seems to suggest 'as other'. I guess this implies > anatta as well. It also implies being able to see the dhammas > seperately - seeing things bundled up makes us more prone to > pannatti, which is why concentration is required for panna to arise, > to see in detail. The self is understood when its components are seen seperately as the 5 aggregates. This type of seeing is possible only in vipassana. To appreciate things like eye-consciousness (which is very subtle) in this manner require much calm and concentration. > > That is what i meant. I think it is important to state what is > possible. > 53795 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Path & Fruit, momentary Path. buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - I could never imagine that the word "moment" would have been "made" so confusing. >Howard: > ... but, hey, folks can use language however they wish so long > as they are clear as to the meaning they intend. > Tep: The trouble is that they think they are clear "as to the meaning they intend". Sincerely, Tep ======== 53796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas Rare Event. buddhistmedi... Dear Joop, I think our discussion under this thread is supposed to be concluded by now. So you may call this message my "last words". >Joop: > > Many thanks for your answers, they were all intelligent and some even wise. > Tep: Even wise? So the "wise answers" must seem like something unexpected to you. :-) .............. > > Tep: "On the other hand, if they were like you it is quite possible > that no candidates would get elected. :-)) " > Joop: A empty White House, that should be the emptiness of emptiness! > Tep: I like that, Joop. ............... > Tep: "To me NEP is more so like a multi-dimensional universe: we > can "see" only the universe in three dimensions." > Joop: I bow for the depth of your superior metaphore. > Tep: Thanks. But too many metaphores can be boring to some. I plan to cut them down from now. .............. > Joop (yesterday): I think it's also possible to say that (for > exemple) the other seven factors supports & are requisite conditions > for "right livelihood" > Tep: "I don't know, Joop. I believe MN 117 as is. The sutta is clear > enough. So I am not going to add any speculations or "reading between the lines" to the sutta. " > Joop: Ok; that can be stuff for more Dhamma-study to me. > Tep: Thanks for agreeing with me -- a rare event. Yours truly, Tep ======== 53797 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: understanding nama-rupa pariccheda (previously origin of right view!!) matheesha333 Dear Tep, T:So, what is > > the > > > non-conjecture meaning of 'annataro' that you have experienced > > > through the "deep concentrated vipassana state" ? M: I was trying to explain to you what i thought to be 'annataro' based on my experiencing. Perhaps you wanted me to tell you a bit more about the experience itself, rather than my understandingo of the word. I'm posting a section on the 1st vipassana kammattana of my teacher. It's something i wrote sometime back and talks of differentiating nama and rupa, based on vinnana, object, sense organ, contact etc (note that it might not use those words). ----------------------- VIPASSANA Vipassana should be attempted immediately after doing Samatha (tranquility/calm) meditations, and ideally after reaching a jhanic level of samadhi (one-pointedness). The minimum level of required samadhi could be seen as where the mind is stable and does not wander, in pre-jhana samadhi, making continued mindfulness possible. You should maintain mindfulness intelligently and with curiosity. 1) Nama Rupa While this meditation can be done in any posture it will be easier to sit down in your normal meditation posture as it requires a calm mind. But with your eyes open this time. Come into the present moment. Let the mind NOT be focused on any ONE thing. But be aware of everything that is does. For example it might hear and sound, see an image, feel a sensation etc. Just let it jump from one to the next naturally, without focusing it on one object. Maintain awareness on everything it is doing, from one thought to the next. Be like a second observer looking at what the mind itself is doing. Do not get caught into reacting to the sounds or sights, by thinking about them. (Ex: you hear, the telephone and a thought arises `who might that be'. What you should be doing is simply being aware that a sound is being heard/sensed). You can be aware (slightly focused) for just a second, until the mind jumps to another sight or sound etc. But do not focus for prolonged periods like in mindfulness of breath, for example. Do not let strings of thoughts arise. If this happens, become aware of it, then put and end to it. Just go back to being aware of all the stimuli coming in one after the other. When you start seeing stimuli coming in one after the other, look more deeply into this happening. Can you see the mind moving to the ear and then the sound being heard? Can you see it moving to the eye, then the image appears. Similarly this happens to all the five senses and the mind. If you can see the mind separately and the sounds, sights, smells, bodily sensations, and tastes separately, you can understand that there are two components at work here. That is the mind which moves (Nama) and the objects which it picks up (Rupa). It is important to understand that the mind must move to a thought as well for it to be felt. The thought is also a mind (Nama) component. Also see that the eye which receives the image, the ear which receive the sound, the skin, tongue, nose etc is also of the rupa (material) quallity. If you find it difficult to be aware of all stimuli initially, you can pick one of them, like sounds for example, and see this process in that alone initially. But later you must see this process in all of them. Smelling and Tasting happens rarely when meditating, but it can be understood in the light of what is happening right now with the other senses, or when you actually experience them when doing something else. The next important thing to understand is that there is nothing other than these two things at work inside of you. They form the basis of how we `create' reality/our world within our own heads. Whether now, or in the past or the future it is the same. Whether here or somewhere else there is no escaping this truth. To sense the mind moving like this, the mind must be quietened by Samatha meditation. It is a very subtle thing that we are trying to sense here. The mind must act almost like a magnifying glass at this point, showing us the subtle details of its workings. You must look closely to see if the process mentioned above is happening. Try to understand what you are seeing through Vipassana in a very simple and Real manner, in relationship to yourself and what is happing inside of you right now. Otherwise your knowledge can become a hindrance to seeing things as they really are (Yathabhutha nana). When your teacher confirms that you have understood this fully, it is acceptable at this point to explore how what you observed can be understood in terms of Abhidhamma. If a person's sensitivity is greater might see/sense something like this: -Sound is heard, followed by the movement of the mind to the ear, followed by the sound being heard better/identified/given meaning etc. or sensation felt, then the mind/awareness moves to that point in the skin where it is felt, followed by the sensation being felt better/it being identified/given meanind etc. Stimuli--> mind moves to where it comes from --> stimuli identified and given meaning This level of sensitivity must be reached eventually (and much later) during the course of doing Vipassana. The meditator must be able to sense these aspects of the process of sensory perception. How long a person has to do Nama-Rupa depends on the growth of his insight into phenomena. A person doing an hour of meditation a day might need up to a month to the required level of insight. Another person at an intensive retreat might understand this in half a day. It is very variable, and depends a lot on the person and the level of communication he has with the teacher. In all meditations and especially Vipassana, honesty with the teacher is critical. Do not expect that you have understood something when you might not have. Be always reserved in your estimations. Report everything you have understood to the teacher. Do not leave anything out. This will help him a lot in his task of helping you. Tell him of any and all problems you might have when doing this. Do not be bored with repeating the same meditation as much as you have to. Sometimes the mist of ignorance is deeply ingrained and it takes hard work to see reality in a different way from what we always have. But it can be done. This then is the first stage of vipassana training in identifying the mind (nama) and matter (rupa) components, in this technique of meditation. The next stage is seeing Hethu-Phala (cause and effect) mechanisms in action. metta matheesha march 04 53798 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Vism.XIV,209 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 209. (x)-(xi) The word 'far' is explained in the Viba.nga in the way beginning 'The unprofitable is far from the profitable and the indeterminate' (Vbh. 4) and the word 'near' in the way beginning 'Unprofitable feeling is near to unprofitable feeling' (Vbh. 4). Therefore, unprofitable feeling is far from the profitable and the indeterminate because of dissimilarity, unconnectedness,and non-resemblance. The profitable and the indeterminate are likewise far from the unprofitable. And so in all instances. But unprofitable feeling is near to unprofitable feeling because of similarity and resemblance. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the past, etc., classifications of the feeling aggregate. ******************** 209. duurapada.m pana ``akusalaa vedanaa kusalaabyaakataahi vedanaahi duure´´. santikepada.m ``akusalaa vedanaa akusalaaya vedanaaya santike´´tiaadinaa nayena vibha"nge vibhatta.m. tasmaa akusalaa vedanaa visabhaagato, asa.msa.t.thato, asarikkhato ca kusalaabyaakataahi duure, tathaa kusalaabyaakataa akusalaaya. esa nayo sabbavaaresu. akusalaa pana vedanaa sabhaagato, sarikkhato ca akusalaaya santiketi. ida.m vedanaakkhandhassa atiitaadivibhaage vitthaarakathaamukha.m. 53799 From: connie Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:25pm Subject: Re: Ethical considerations (was Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas) nichiconn Dear Joop, Joop (after looking up the term 'restraint' is his dictionary): We should be careful to describe ethics in a negative way; sometimes it's inevitable but better we formulate it in a positive way; so the use of the term 'restraint' should not be the core-concept. Connie (after looking up the term 'refraint' in her dictionary): Following an ethic grounded on understanding dukkha, ethics (siila) would be the paths/lines of thought/conduct the refugee would be well advised to avoid (vaaritta) and do (caarita). Note the refugee's phrase "verama.nii sikkhaapada.m samaadiyaami" / "I undertake the training precept of abstinence", which is common to all 10 basic rules laid down along start of the escape route. There is danger in the slightest fault when hell lies on the horizon and even good kamma is still kamma. Support for the three right ways of life? Guarding/restraint of the sense faculties. peace, connie