54600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:20am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 The development of satipatthåna is the development of right understanding that sees visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, whatever appears, as a dhamma that arises because of the appropriate conditions. Acharn Sujin said many times that seeing arises because of eyesense, which is rúpa, and visible object which is also rúpa. Seeing experiences visible object or colour, it is nåma. It has no shape or form. Acharn Sujin untiringly helps us to understand what is appearing now, such as seeing and visible object. She repeats time and again ³Is there seeing now?² and she explains the charactertistic of the dhamma that appears at the present moment. It is always new to me to hear again and again about seeing and visible object. Gradually her words become more meaningful so that understanding of realities can grow, although it may be hardly noticeable. Acharn used a simile of a tree with buds. One may not notice that the tree will sprout, but one day it will. Seeing has a specific characteristic, it is different from thinking about people and things we notice. Visible object has a specific characteristic, it appears through eyesense. People and things do not impinge on the eyesense, they are concepts we think of. We have to be reminded of realities so that understanding of them can grow. Such understanding can condition direct awareness, but we should have no expectations, as she often said. There is seeing now, but do we study it with mindfulness? We are forgetful of seeing, we think rather of persons and things we perceive. Hardness appears many times a day and usually we are forgetful. Hardness is experienced by body-consciousness, but this is different from awareness of hardness. When hardness appears, anyone, even a child can tell how hard it is. Hardness is experienced by body-consciousness, and this is not awareness. When there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness the characteristic of hardness or of the experience of hardness can be understood. At such moments one does not cling to concepts such as a hand or a table that is touched. We may think of ³our possessions², but through which doorway do we experience possessions? Through eyes only colour is experienced and this falls away immediately. Through touch only tangible object is experienced and this falls away immediately. What arises because of the appropriate conditions has no owner. We have to consider this again and again. Awareness and understanding of one object at a time as it appears through one doorway at a time will lead to detachment from the idea of self and ³mine². ***** Nina. 54601 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 0:48am Subject: On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Dan) - In a message dated 1/12/06 1:05:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > 10. Just at the end of this good post, I’d like to nit-pick a little > however.... ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yeah, me too, Sarah. But I'll meta-nitpick! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ > You write that: > > D: “citta doesn’t experience sensation; Citta IS the experience, and > sensation is one of the characteristics of that experience. Experience > (citta) at one moment differs from that at another moment, and sensation > is an aspect of each citta. So is sanya......â€? ----------------------------------------- Howard: You quote Dan saying "citta doesn’t experience sensation; Citta IS the experience," but you don't even experiment with changing your formulations along those lines, and away from verbal reification. Dan's point is that citta is not an agent. It is not a thing which does something, namely experience. It *is* the doing of something. It is a mental event, experiencing. ------------------------------------------ > ..... > S: Citta can experience any object – reality or concept. > --------------------------------------- Howard: No, it isn't some thing that can experience. It is the very activity of experiencing. -------------------------------------- So it experiences> > feelings, it experiences tangible objects and anything else we like to > call sensations. --------------------------------------- Howard: No, not so. It is the experiencing of feelings, tangible objects, and sensations. --------------------------------------- Citta is the experiencing of an object, it’s function is > to experience > that object. --------------------------------------- Howard: You almost did it right, and then you went wrong! ;-) Yes, it is the experiencing of an object. But it is not a thing that has a function. There is nothing more to be said about a citta other than "It's an experiencing of an object." ---------------------------------------- When there’s awareness of a citta, say> > ‘seeing’, it is awareness of the characteristic of that nama which > experiences visible object. ---------------------------------------- Howard: When there is awareness of a citta, it is the being aware of being aware of an object. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54602 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Information about S.N. Goenka upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/12/06 2:01:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, James - > > > > My perspective on the Goenka organization and method > differs from > >yours, James. My experience was quite different, except, of > course, for the great > >fear evoked by the no-self experience I encountered there. But > such terror is > >common. Ayya Khema has discussed that, in fact. > > James: But did the Buddha ever discuss that? I don't think that > meditation practice is supposed to evoke terror- about anything. If > you truly practice that path as taught by the Buddha there won't be > any terror involved. ----------------------------------------- Howard: What Ayya Khema said was that without serious jhana practice, fear is unavoidable on the path. The Buddha, of course, made jhana a central element of practice. As to whether the Buddha taught meditators about fearful moments, I don't know, but surely there was a lot more detailed instruction on numerous practice issues, walking meditation for example, that didn't find its way into the suttas. ------------------------------------------- > > > > I've gone over most of the material on the site you gave > the url for, > >and I think it is WAY off target. > > James: It is just one perspective. You have already stated that it > isn't your perspective so of course you are going to see the > information as "off target". The important thing is to try and have > an unbiased perspective: which I don't know if that is possible for > either of us. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course. It's my opinion. -------------------------------------------- > > One of the names associated with it, BTW, is > >that of a self-proclaimed "sotapanna" who considers himself rather > much of a > >"master", and who treats jhana as if it were the whole of the > Dhamma. > > James: I really don't understand why so many Buddhists have > this "thing" against Jeffrey S. Brooks. He seems to push a button > in so many that they respond with bitter attacks and character > assassination. (Not saying that you are doing that). He's not > claiming to be an arahant, just a sotapanna. And I don't know why > everyone gets so shocked that he does that- like he is breaking some > kind of Buddhist rule. The canon has some examples of lay people > proclaiming themselves to be sotapanna and the Buddha approving of > their proclamations. And just because Jeffrey may over-emphasize > the importance of jhana on occasion doesn't mean he can't be a > sotapanna. A sotapanna isn't perfect, he/she has a lot more work to > do. They have at least seven more lifetimes in which to learn (and, > I have read, that that means seven more realms of existence. For > example, a sotapanna could be reborn as a human five or six times in > a row but it would only count as one lifetime, because it was still > as a human). Anyway, I digress. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Have you followed him carefully on the lists, James? Well, anyway, as you say, it is a digression. ---------------------------------------- > > I was > >very negatively impressed by this website, and my perspective is > not at all a > >matter of having some special attachment to Goenka, his technique, > or his > >organization. At present, in fact, it holds no interest for me at > all, though also I > >have no particular aversion to it either. My one retreat was > useful, and > >that's the whole of the matter. But this website strikes me as > involving folks who > >could use some *serious* counseling, and my impression is that > their probelms > >didn't originate with their attending a retreat. > > James: Well, this is a broad generalization and armchair > psychology. You can barely make such a diagnosis based on the short > quotes put on this web site! Now, this comment seriously throws > your perspective into doubt, in my eyes. It appears to be very > biased and unreasonable. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. It was very evident to me. Of course, I might be wrong. Often what seems very clear is actually otherwise. One thing, though: My perception was not a matter of bias to the best of my knowledge, and I'm pretty good at knowing the state of my mind. As to whether it was unreasonable, well, I guess we just differ on that. --------------------------------------------- > > > > At the retreat I attended, while it was said that the full > 10 days is > >needed for full benefit, there was NO warning of dire results if > one left > >early. Moreover, the separation of sexes, which BTW was not > complete, the silence > >that was maintained, the limitation of eating no meals after mid- > day, and > >other such restrictions were rigorous but really quite standard. > Oh, also, the > >accusation of use of drugging with "hypnotics" was particularly > outrageous. In > >addition, I don't recall the use of the description "weak minded" > at the retreat > >at all. One more thing - I had no problem understanding Goenka on > the tape, > >despite what one possibly bigoted reviewer said about > his "accent". > >Incidentally, the assistant teachers there, a husband and wife, > were very kind, most > >straightforward, respectful, and helpful. And believe me, I was > not a gullible > >"true believer". I tend to run like hell from "true believers," > and even more so > >from those who seek them! > > James: So, your experience was different. Maybe you were lucky. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: That may well be so. ---------------------------------------- I > > also wonder what year you took this retreat? Things might have > degraded since you attended. And there are retreat centers all over > the US and the world (Isn't it funny, and suspicious, how something > that is supposed to be free has gotten so rich??) ------------------------------------------ Howard: It was probably about 10-15 years ago. I'm not sure. Perhaps it has gone downhill since then. As to the available money, well, yes, that IS interesting. Perhaps there are some very wealthy sponsors around the world. My retreat really was free. Dana was requested, but there was no strong-arming at all. Room and very substantial board were provided, good teaching, and a lovely environment, all with no compensation required, and no pressure for donating either, though it was certainly requested. ----------------------------------------- > > > I honestly think this is a terrible web site. However, as > to what sort > >of person Goenka actually is, well, I don't know. If he is in fact > >homophobic, then he isn't much of one. But that's a different > matter - very important, > >but different. > > James: I have said that he is homophobic because he won't let gays > or lesbians participate in his retreats. To me, that is > homophobic. Now, he gives this reason that it is because one is > supposed to focus on the practice and that sexual desire gets in the > way of that. He goes on to say that gay men being with other men > will be too turned on and that gay women being with women will be > too turned on. Excuse me? This is based on a very homophobic idea > that all gay people are sex addicts and/or abusers. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, were I at a retreat with co-ed sleeping quarters, I am sufficiently "afflicted" by sexual inclination to have my retreat experience seriously compromised. So, I'm not at all certain that Goenka's policy is motivated by anti-gay prejudice. I just don't know. --------------------------------------- Does Goenka > > think that a gay person is going to want to hump everyone in sight? > That they can't control their own desires? > --------------------------------------- Howard: The same argument could be used against the separation of the sexes at a retreat. -------------------------------------- And according to > > studies, most people are not completely gay or completely straight > anyway, but somewhere on a spectrum in-between (Kinsey). Get a > bunch of men together without the possibility of sex with women and > they are going to turn to each other for satisfaction- just look at > prisons. So, it is very stupid and homophobic to not allow self- > identified gays and lesbians to participate in his retreats. But, > they are better off without them anyway, so I guess his homophobia > is a blessing in disguise. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course it is possible that his policy is based on homophobia. I just don't know. ----------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54603 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/12/06 6:10:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > op 11-01-2006 21:20 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >>N: "latent tendencies" are ultimate realities; cetasikas. > >>======================= > >Well, perhaps we're not as close on this issue as I speculated! ;-)) > ------- > N: Sensedesire is lobha cetasika. It arises with the akusala citta and then > falls away with the citta, but it is accumulated and can condition the > arising again of sense desire. It operates as a condition, it is real, it is > not a concept. If you do not like the term cetasika, we can use another > term, but it is reality! ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm afraid I don't follow this response of yours. Of course I am aware of the reality of sense desire and that it is a cetasika. But you had written <<"latent tendencies" are ultimate realities; cetasikas.>> That is what I was addressing, not the reality of sense desires, which certainly do appear and disappear. ------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54604 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:05am Subject: Re: Class Notes - Abhidhamma robmoult Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: I still think that instead of following (? perhaps you do not follow) > modern scholars, it is best to read the Abhidhamma books themselves and > their early commentaries, such as the Expositor, the Dispeller of Delusion, > etc. I am not so sure the modern scholars that were mentioned studied and > contemplated earnestly the texts themselves. ===== I do not follow modern scholars, but nor do I have blind faith in the texts. I take a "middle path" based on my own investigation. Evidence such as the non-alignment of different versions of Abhidhamma (unlike the relative alignment of various schools' Suttas and Vinaya). Evidence such as the Puggalapannatti as being a summary of the Anguttara Nikaya (and therefore would come after the Anguttara Nikaya). Evidence such as the non-mentioning of the recitation of Abhidhamma in other school's accounts of the first council. This is the evidence that makes it difficult for me to accept the premise that the Abhidhamma as we know it (except for the Katthavatthu) was recited at the First Council. In his introduction to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes, "Although modern critical scholarship attempts to explain the formation of the Abhidhamma by a gradual evolutionary process, Theravada orthodoxy assigns its genesis to the Buddha himself." I just noticed that Bhikkhu Bodhi lists in his notes, A.K. Warder and Fumimaro Watanabe, along with an article by Kogen Mizuno, as the modern critical scholars. In my opinion, the majority of the content of the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha. What is my reasoning? When the Buddha did not appoint a successor and said, "Let the Dhamma be the guide", there was clearly a need to structure the master's teachings. Even A K Warder admits that the Abhidhamma reached its current form largely by the second council. In the space of about 100 years, I cannot imagine a group of Theravada monks fabricating something so elaborate as the Abhidhamma texts purely out of thin air. I believe that in the hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbana, a group of scholar monks who had direct or almost-direct access to the Buddha's teachings (suttas and less formal parts, some of which were later written down as the commentaries) compiled the Abhidhamma. Just as Buddhaghosa was careful to preserve the ancient commentaries and tried to avoid inserting his own opinions, so too the scholar monks would take great care not to maintain the spirit and as much of the word of the Buddha when compiling the Abhidhamma. For these reasons, I view the Suttas and Vinaya as "purely cannonical" while I view the Abhidhamma and Buddhaghosa's commentaries as "quasi cannonical" (though I view the Abhidhamma is more cannonical than the commentaries. This differentiation is based largely on the different time periods involved; less than 100 years after the parinibbana for the Abhidhamma and up to one thousand years for the commentaries). ===== > Horner was mentioned in your quotes. Indeed, she is very careful with Pali > and states that 'higher Dhamma' as we read in the suttas may not always > refer to the Abhidhamma as we know it now. It depends on the context and I > am inclined to be careful also. The same Ms. Horner wrote a very good intro > to the "Clarifier of Sweet Meaning" (Co to the Chronicle of the Buddhas) > about the commentaries. See also the Intro to the 'Minor Readings and > Illustrator' by Ven. Nanamoli. > Scholars who think that the Abhidhamma is of a later time also doubt about > the reliability of the commentarial tradition. ===== As explained above, I take the "middle path" saying that the Abhidhamma (just like the commentaries) arose after the Buddha's parinibbana, but I still accept them as "quite canonical". ===== > > Another point. When reading the Abhidhamma, we should always have in mind > that Abhidhamma and satipatthana go together. Be aware and check the > different cittas that are described. Is it true that there are cittas rooted > in lobha and are these different from cittas rooted in dosa? In the course > of our study we shall also notice that what is taught in the suttas, though > different in form, is not essentially different from the Abhidhamma. ===== 100% agree. What is taught in the Suttas, though different in form, is not essentially different from the Abhidhamma. ===== > > A question: you teach Abhidhamma on the request of your teacher, the head > monk of your temple. You sure must also have personal reasons to do this > wholeheartedly. What are your motives? ===== I have a love of the Dhamma and a predeliction to structure (I am an engineer :-) ). I feel that the Abhihdamma can be incredibly valuable as part of one's practice and helping in understanding the Suttas better. I have attended Abhidhamma courses which involved memorizing Pali names for the various cittas (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata- sampayuttam asankharikam ekam). I know that this is how monks learn Abhidhamma, but it is not for me. I have a strong desire to show how the Abhidhamma is applied in daily life (including satipatthana). I have a strong desire to make what appears complex easy to understand through charts, diagrams and analogies. I have a strong desire to reveal the beautiful underlying structure to the Suttas. ===== > > As Sarah quoted from the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha: > > is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and > ultimate. > > " Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that > it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: Consciousness has the > characteristic of knowing objects. > > "That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it > is mentality (cetasika). > > "That which is afflicted (ruppati) is materiality (ruupa).> > > We do not speak about nibbaana now. But what does it mean, ultimate? citta, > cetasika and rupa have each unalterable characteristics. Thus, lobha clings, > no matter what shade it is, no matter what object it takes. It cannot be > dosa, nobody can change it into something else. We can change the names of > ultimate dhammas, but not their characteristics. Lobha appears time and > again and then we can learn what its characteristic is. Ultimate dhammas are > the objects of awareness and right understanding. Abhidhamma and vipassana > go together. If this is not the case, we shall not really understand what > the Abhidhamma is and what the purpose of our study of the Abhidhamma is. > ===== Nina, perhaps our perspectives are not as far apart as we initially thought. I agree with everything you wrote (and quoted) above. Metta, Rob M :-) 54605 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:12am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 356 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (h) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for these posts. They are very beneficial. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] The Visuddhimagga states about the åsavas that they "exude from unguarded sense-doors". The sense-doors are "guarded" through the development of satipaììhåna. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How true. --------------------------------------------------------------------- We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Threes, Chapter II, §16, The Sure Course) that a monk who possesses three qualities is "proficient in the practice leading to the Sure Course" and "has strong grounds for the destruction of the åsavas". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are three qualities? --------------------------------------------------------------------- These three qualities are moderation in eating, the guarding of the six doors and vigilance. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Oh! Now I see. Sorry for my earlier question. I am reading- replying at the same time. -------------------------------------------------------------------- We read concerning the guarding of the six doors: * "And how does he keep watch over the door of his sense faculties? Herein, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, does not grasp at the general features or at the details thereof. Since coveting and dejection, evil, unprofitable states might overwhelm one who dwells with the faculty of the eye uncontrolled, he applies himself to such control, sets a guard over the faculty of the eye, attains control thereof...." * The same is said about the other doorways. The six doorways should be guarded. How does one, when seeing an object with the eye, not "grasp at the general features or at the details thereof"? In being mindful of the reality which appears. This is the way to see realities as they are, to see them as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. However, even the sotåpanna who has eradicated the "canker of wrong view", diììhåsava, still clings to sensuous objects. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So there left three more asavas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Even someone who has realized the arising and falling away of visible object which appears, of sound which appears, may still cling to them. Clinging has been accumulated from life to life, how then could one become detached at once? ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. Nina said 'Different Groups of Defilement'. I wrote as different stocks of dhamma. :-)) With respect, Htoo Naing 54606 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Abhidhamma robmoult Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Perhaps you could also mention Dhammapala who is about at the same time as > Buddhaghosa, I believe. He has written helpful subcommentaries. ===== Thanks for the suggestion - I need to look into it ===== > R: The Abhidhamma evolved because there was a need to > > expand upon these matikas using precise, technical terms. Technical > > terms are required because common language is subject to much > > interpretation. These terms are a key feature of the Abhidhamma. > ------ > N: I am not so inclined to use the expression technical terms. Shall we say, > terms expressing what is real in the ultimate sense? > I myself find the terms used very precise and expressing what is real and > what can be verified at this moment. ===== I understand why you do not like the work "technical". I will remove it. It may give a wrong impression. At the same time, however, I avoid using the word "real" as it has a metaphysical connotation that I believe has no place in the Buddha's teaching. ===== > I find that the the whole Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included, refers to the > development of right understanding of what appears through the six doors. > Also in the suttas the Buddha speaks about ultimate realities, see Kindred > Sayings. > > Sarah and Rob K have written many posts on the Abhidhamma. You can find > these in the archives. Buddhaghosa did not claim anything himself, he merely > edited the oldest commentaries he found in Sri Lanka, in the Mahaavihara. > > Let me just mention one quote that Rob K drew our attention to and that > refers to three Baskets (thus, not two) from the oldest time on: > > (Vin, 1V,344): "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to > instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or Abhidhamma > first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no offence in > him," > In the Bhikkhuni Vibhanga Vin,1V,344( "A bhikkhuni is guilty of a minor > offence) if she questions on the Abhidhamma or Vinaya after getting > permission (to question) on the Suttanta, or on the Suttanta or Vinaya after > getting permission (to question) on the Abhidhamma, or on the suttanta or > Abhidhamma after getting permission (to question) on the Vinaya."......> ===== I believe that this was one of the cases where Miss I B Horner translated "abhidhamma" as "further dhamma" (not referring to a pitaka). ===== > > During our luncheon in a restaurant I discussed this subject with Lodewijk. > For him the historical aspects are not relevant. He said: Abhidhamma, read the authentic texts of the abhidhamma, and above all: check > the Abhidhamma in and against daily life. The application in daily life is > what matters.> ===== I agree with Lodewijk. The parts that I can superficially verify are in accordance with the Abhidhamma. I am very sure that scholar monks who have spent a better part of their lifetimes in meditation have compared their experiences with the Abhidhamma and found that the texts mirror experiences as well. However, there are details in the Abhidhamma which are difficult, not just difficult but nigh on impossible, to verify against personal existence. ===== > > What I want to ask you: have you read the Books of the Abhidhamma > themselves, the oporiginal texts themselves, such as the Dhammasangani and > the Book of Analysis? The texts themselves are more convincing than > historical arguments. When reading these one can find out that the > Abhidhamma is in conformity with the Suttanta and Vinaya. We should compare > the three parts of the Tipitaka. ===== I liked the Abhidhamatthasangaha when I first read it, but once I started reading the original texts, I felt that the Abhidhamatthasangaha was only the appetizer. I particularly appreciate the Vibhanga which gives both a Sutta and Abhidhamma analysis. The only book that I have not yet been able to get my mind around properly is the Patthana; probably something to do with the structure of presentation. I suspect that when I commit the time to diving into the Patthana, that this will be the desert! ===== > > To conclude: studying the Abhidhamma is studying the dhammas appearing at > this very moment, as Kh. Sujin says. I prefer this outlook. > Read the Book of Analysis, for example the Analysis of Small Items. It helps > me to know my own defilements, such as conceit that can arise on account of > any imaginable object. > Ch 17, [345]: youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being > respected; pride of prominence;...> > We can check on account of what objects conceit arises. > There are many, many eye-openers in the abhidhamma texts. > ===== I agree that it is wonderful! Metta, Rob M :-) 54608 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 622 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Pa.ticcasamuppdaada dhamma or Dependent Origination is the relationship between dhamma. Dhamma do not stand alone but they stand hand in hand with other dhamma and there are interrelation and interconnection between these dhamma. In the scripture these relationships are described as the following. Formation(sankhaara) has to arise depending on ignorance(avijjaa). Consciousness(vinnaana) has to arise depending on formation (sankhara). Mentality-materiality have to arise depending on consciousness. (naama-ruupa) 6-sense-base has to arise depending on mentality-materiality. (sa.laayatana) Contact has to arise depending on 6-sense-base. (phassa) Feeling(vedanaa) has to arise depending on contact. Craving(tanhaa) has to arise depending on feeling. Clinging(upadaana) has to arise depending on craving. Becoming(bhava) has to arise depending on clinging. Rebirth(jaati) has to arise depending on becoming. Death (ageing/death) has to arise depending on rebirth. (jaraa/mara.na) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54609 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:04am Subject: Class Notes - Part 2 robmoult Tipitaka Written Down For its first five hundred years, Buddhism was maintained as an oral tradition. About two thousand years ago, King Vattagamani of Sri Lanka discovered that there was only a single monk who remembered the Nidessa (one of the books in the Khuddaka Nikaya). Seeing the fragility of the Dhamma, the king convened a Fourth Council to record the entire TipiÂaka on palm leaves in Pali, believed to be the language that the Buddha used. The commentaries were also written down at this time, but in the Singhalese language. Vinaya Pitaka The first part of the Tipitaka is the Vinaya Pitaka. The Vinaya lists the rules of discipline for monks (227 rules) and nuns (311 rules). The Vinaya also provides stories about the origin of each rule and examples of how the Buddha applied and interpreted each rule. There are eight classes of rules in the Vinaya: - Parajika (Defeaters): These are rules entailing permanent expulsion from the Sangha. There are four rules for monks (incelibacy, stealing, killing and claiming false attainments) - Sanghadisesa: These are rules entailing an initial and subsequent meeting of the Sangha (putting a monk on "probation" for a period). An example would be out of anger, falsely accusing another bhikkhu of defeat. - Aniyata: These rules are indefinite and require review on a case by case basis. An example would be sitting in private, alone with a woman in a situation secluded enough to lend itself to lewd speech. - Nissaggiya Pacittaya: These rules require confession and forfeiture. An example would be a monk taking money. - Suddha Pacittaya: These rules require confession only. Examples would be telling a lie, killing an animal or eating after noon. - Patidesaniya: These rules involve proper behaviour in accepting and eating alms-food. They require a special form of confession. - Sekhiya: These 75 rules of training do not involve any penalty. They deal with politeness issues such as not taking large mouthfuls when eating. - Adhikaranasamatha: Rules for settling disputes such as taking a vote. Sutta Pitaka The second part of the TipiÂaka is the Sutta Pitaka. These are the collected discourses of the Buddha and a few of His disciples. They are organized as into Nikayas (collections) follows: - Diga Nikaya: Collection of 34 long discourses - Majjhima Nikaya: Collection of 152 middle length discourses - Samyutta Nikaya: Collection of 7762 connected discourses which are organized by theme - Anguttara Nikaya: Collection of 9557 discourses which are organized by number (Book of Ones, Book of Twos, etc.) - Khuddaka Nik¤ya: Collection of 15 additional texts such as Dhammapada, Petavatthu (hungry ghost stories) and Jataka Tales Discussion welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) 54610 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:39am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta. A Lucky Guy. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Seeing is a very broad term in Buddhism. > > > > Tep: So you see the paramattha dhammas the way they really are. > > Congratulations ! > > > Htoo: > Dear Tep, > > There are milestones, landmarks along the Journey. I saw some > landmarks. Yes. I have seen them. Even though I cannot still see > all the detail and their full essence and characters I do see them > as they are. > > They arise, they pass away. When they are there they bear their > characters. Seeing is more important than language. > Tep: The general definition of Paramattha-dhamma, i.e. rupa, citta, cetasika, and Nibbana, is without any doubt compatible with the Sutta-pitaka. The extremely-fast arising-and-falling-away characteristic of the Paramattha-dhamma is, however, not supported by the Sutta-pitaka or even the Abhidhamma-pitaka (as far as I am concerned). So it puzzles me when you say that "see" the paramattha dhammas the way they really are. Are you capable of (mentally) tracking the less-than-one-billionth-second arising-and-falling-away phenomena? Warm regards, Tep ========= 54611 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. nilovg Hi Howard, Ven. Thanissaro translates anusaya as obsessions. Actually, those listed are the latent tendencies, and these seven are actually six cetasikas, sense desire and passion for becoming being lobha cetasika. I answered you about cetasikas, but then saw this post also. Maybe it is too much now. Nina. op 11-01-2006 17:03 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > There is no implication of substantiality, storage, > seeds, and so on just in using the term 'obsession'. To be obsessed with > something is merely to have that phenomenon repeatedly arise, afflicting the > mind. > And the particular phenomena listed here that do repeatedly arise, afflicting > the mind, are sensual passion, resistance, views, uncertainty, conceit, > passion > for becoming, and ignorance. 54612 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Rob M, op 12-01-2006 16:40 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: >> Perhaps you could also mention Dhammapala who is about at the same > time as >> Buddhaghosa, I believe. He has written helpful subcommentaries. > > ===== > > Thanks for the suggestion - I need to look into it ------- N: Not much in English. The Tiika of the Vis. I summarize. But here is a transl of the Udana Co: by Peter Masefield. Two large volumes. --------- R: I understand why you do not like the work "technical". I will remove > it. It may give a wrong impression. > > At the same time, however, I avoid using the word "real" as it has a > metaphysical connotation that I believe has no place in the Buddha's > teaching. ------- What about realities or dhammas, being the same as paramattha dhammas? We need some words, but after explanations people may know their meaning. ------ >> >> > (Vin, 1V,344): "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one > were to >> instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or > Abhidhamma >> first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no > offence in >> him," >> In the Bhikkhuni Vibhanga Vin,1V,344( "A bhikkhuni is guilty of a > minor >> offence) if she questions on the Abhidhamma or Vinaya after getting >> permission (to question) on the Suttanta, or on the Suttanta or > Vinaya after >> getting permission (to question) on the Abhidhamma, or on the > suttanta or >> Abhidhamma after getting permission (to question) on the > Vinaya."......> > > ===== > R: I believe that this was one of the cases where Miss I B Horner > translated "abhidhamma" as "further dhamma" (not referring to a > pitaka). -------- N: Here I would think it refers to the Abhidhamma Pitaka, because of Vinaya and sutta that are mentioned in this context. ---------- R: > I agree with Lodewijk. The parts that I can superficially verify are > in accordance with the Abhidhamma.... However, there are details in the > Abhidhamma which are difficult, not just difficult but nigh on > impossible, to verify against personal existence. ------- N: Yes, of course. We cannot verify all. ------ > > I liked the Abhidhamatthasangaha when I first read it, but once I > started reading the original texts, I felt that the > Abhidhamatthasangaha was only the appetizer. I particularly > appreciate the Vibhanga which gives both a Sutta and Abhidhamma > analysis. The only book that I have not yet been able to get my mind > around properly is the Patthana; probably something to do with the > structure of presentation. I suspect that when I commit the time to > diving into the Patthana, that this will be the desert! -------- N: Patthana is the most difficult. U Narada's Guide to Condiitonal Relations is helpful. Nina. 54613 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. nilovg Hi Howard, sense-desire that is arising is a reality, a cetasika. Sense-desire that has fallen away is sense-desire that is past, still a cetasika, but of the past. It is called: latent tendency, indicating that it has not been eradicated yet. So there sure will be sense desire cetasika in the future. Nina. op 12-01-2006 15:42 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I'm afraid I don't follow this response of yours. Of course I am aware > of the reality of sense desire and that it is a cetasika. But you had written > <<"latent tendencies" are ultimate realities; cetasikas.>> That is what I was > addressing, not the reality of sense desires, which certainly do appear and > disappear. 54614 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Class Notes - Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Rob M, thank you for your additional explanations. It is clearer now to me how you think about the Abhidhamma, and I agree, we are not so far apart. I find different schools confusing and do not know anything about them. This subject does not hold my interest. Nina. op 12-01-2006 16:05 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > Nina, perhaps our perspectives are not as far apart as we initially > thought. I agree with everything you wrote (and quoted) above. 54615 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 0:35pm Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta. A Lucky Guy. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo - > > Seeing is a very broad term in Buddhism. > > > > > > > Tep: So you see the paramattha dhammas the way they really are. > > > Congratulations ! > > > > > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, > > > > There are milestones, landmarks along the Journey. I saw some > > landmarks. Yes. I have seen them. Even though I cannot still see > > all the detail and their full essence and characters I do see them > > as they are. > > > > They arise, they pass away. When they are there they bear their > > characters. Seeing is more important than language. > > > > Tep: The general definition of Paramattha-dhamma, i.e. rupa, citta, > cetasika, and Nibbana, is without any doubt compatible with the > Sutta-pitaka. The extremely-fast arising-and-falling-away > characteristic of the Paramattha-dhamma is, however, not supported by > the Sutta-pitaka or even the Abhidhamma-pitaka (as far as I am > concerned). So it puzzles me when you say that "see" the paramattha > dhammas the way they really are. Are you capable of (mentally) > tracking the less-than-one-billionth-second arising-and-falling- away > phenomena? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. I said as I said. With respect, Htoo Naing 54616 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218, 219 and Tiika. lbidd2 Nina: "the five khandhas are the widest limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self." Hi Nina, I wonder why concept can't be a basis for the assumption of self. We might think "I am the leader". Isn't this taking concept as self? Larry 54617 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:09pm Subject: Vism.XIV,220 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 220. 4. 'As to simile': the materiality aggregate [as object] of clinging is like a sick-room because it is the dwelling-place, as physical basis, door, and object, of the sick man, namely, the consciousness aggregate as object of clinging. The feeling aggregate as object of clinging is like the sickness because it afflicts. The perception aggregate as object of clinging is like the provocation of the sickness because it gives rise to feeling associated with greed, etc., owing to perception of sense desires, and so on. The formations aggregate as object of clinging is like having recourse to what is unsuitable because it is the source of feeling, which is the sickness; for it is said: 'Feeling as feeling is the formed that they form' (S.iii,87), and likewise: 'Because of unprofitable kamma having been performed and stored up, resultant body-consciousness has arisen accompanied by pain' (Dhs.556). The consciousness aggregate as object of clinging is like the sick man because it is never free from feeling, which is the sickness. *************************** 220. upamaatoti ettha hi gilaanasaalupamo ruupupaadaanakkhandho, gilaanupamassa vi~n~naa.nupaadaanakkhandhassa vatthudvaaraaramma.navasena nivaasa.t.thaanato. gela~n~nupamo vedanupaadaanakkhandho, aabaadhakattaa. gela~n~nasamu.t.thaanupamo sa~n~nupaadaanakkhandho, kaamasa~n~naadivasena raagaadisampayuttavedanaasabbhaavaa. asappaayasevanupamo sa"nkhaarupaadaanakkhandho, vedanaagela~n~nassa nidaanattaa. ``vedana.m vedanatthaaya abhisa"nkharontii´´ti (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.79) hi vutta.m. tathaa``akusalassa kammassa katattaa upacitattaa vipaaka.m kaayavi~n~naa.na.m uppanna.m hoti dukkhasahagata´´nti (dha0 sa0 556). gilaanupamo vi~n~naa.nupaadaanakkhandho, vedanaagela~n~nena aparimuttattaa. 54618 From: Frank Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:56pm Subject: kamma bears fruit pretty quickly sometimes dhamma_service Mouse thrown into fire sets home ablaze January 8, 2006 FORT SUMNER, N.M. --A mouse got its revenge against a homeowner who tried to dispose of it in a pile of burning leaves. The blazing creature ran back to the man's house and set it on fire. Article Tools Luciano Mares, 81, of Fort Sumner said he caught the mouse inside his house and wanted to get rid of it. "I had some leaves burning outside, so I threw it in the fire, and the mouse was on fire and ran back at the house," Mares said from a motel room Saturday. Village Fire Chief Juan Chavez said the burning mouse ran to just beneath a window, and the flames spread up from there and throughout the house. No was hurt inside, but the home and everything in it was destroyed. Unseasonably dry and windy conditions have charred more than 53,000 acres and destroyed 10 homes in southeastern New Mexico in recent weeks. "I've seen numerous house fires," village Fire Department Capt. Jim Lyssy said, "but nothing as unique as this one." © Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. frank@... 54619 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles You are welcome Htoo Naing Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Thanks for your reply. It makes sense that you wrote. Thanks for 'Upanisa Sutta' which shows T.D.O or Transcendental Dependent Orgination. Htoo Naing ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Htoo Naing, > I forgot to mention that if DO is more then just "the 12-links in a chain of > causation" (i.e., in reality it is "Causation"), then it could > exist in even in Arhats, even in a Buddha. ... 54620 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:13pm Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta. A Lucky Guy. buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - Do you remember the Dhamma ways to answer questions that our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha recommended? AN III.67 Kathavatthu Sutta Topics for Discussion (I) - "If a person, when asked a question, doesn't give a categorical answer to a question deserving a categorical answer, doesn't give an analytical (qualified) answer to a question deserving an analytical answer, doesn't give a counter-question to a question deserving a counter-question, doesn't put aside a question deserving to be put aside, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with". (II) - "If a person, when asked a question, doesn't stand by what is possible and impossible, doesn't stand by agreed-upon assumptions, doesn't stand by teachings known to be true, doesn't stand by standard procedure, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with". (III) - "If a person, when asked a question, puts down [the questioner], crushes him, ridicules him, grasps at his little mistakes, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with." ............................... But, don't worry. I myself need to read this great sutta often too. It seems I am not a "person fit to talk with" either !! {:>|) (|<:} Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > (snipped) > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply. I said as I said. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > 54621 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Mike*,Larry**, Joop*** & all) Thanks for reading my comments and joining in the nitpicking:). A familiar topic and one that causes you concern, I know:). --- upasaka@... wrote: > > You write that: > Howard: > You quote Dan saying "citta doesn’t experience sensation; Citta IS the experience," but you don't even experiment with changing your formulations along those lines, and away from verbal reification. Dan's point is >that citta is not an agent. It is not a thing which does something, namely > experience. It is* the doing of something. It is a mental >event, experiencing. ------------------------------------------ S: Like Mike*, I wasn’t familiar with the term ‘reifies’ before I ‘met’ you here and I don’t believe the Buddha suggests that citta is a ‘mental event’ as opposed to an element which experiences its object. Perhaps the use of ‘reifies’ in this context relates to concerns about ‘duality’, about subject and object, assuming there is just an experience, just an event? As far as I can tell, such ideas miss the mark with regard to the importance and need for clear understanding and awareness of namas and rupas from the outset. As I quoted recently from the commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha: ..... “ ‘Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘Consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’” “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness;” ..... S: Citta is an element. It is an element which knows/experiences an object. That is its characteristic. Vedana (feeling, sensation[?]) is not a characteristic of citta, it arises with citta, dependent on it. Vedana can also be the object of citta, just as tangible objects, i.e rupas (sensations[??]) can be. If we say that ‘citta IS the experience’ as you would prefer, is there not a merging or blending of citta and its object? This is not correct of course. Citta is a completely separate element from its object (whether it be concept or realtiy) and when there is awareness of citta, it is of its characteristic which experiences or the momentary experiencing, if you prefer, but not of ‘an event’. I have no problem with saying ‘citta is the experiencing of an object’, but I find ‘citta experiences an object’ to be clearer and more precise as in: "it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘Consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’". ..... You don’t like the suggestion of ‘an agent’, but the purpose of saying ‘citta knows/experiences an object’ and so on is to show that what we take for Self who experiences various objects are in fact various elements, various cittas which perform their function of experiencing and then fall away. An element is not an agent, it is just the reality which experiences its object or we can say it is the experiencing of the object as you prefer. There is no distinction when I use the phrases (or when the texts do as I read them). .... “Consciousness in the eye, being dependent upon it, is the eye-consciousness. Thus it is said that ‘it has the characteristic of discriminating visible forms in dependence upon the eye.” (also from the same text). ..... S: When there is awareness of seeing/eye consciousness, it is awareness of this characteristic of seeing of visible forms which is ‘revealed’ and which can is understood at such a time. Howard, I know you prefer suttas and I know you like the following lines for the Udana (#10, Baahiya, Masefield transl): ..... “Therefore, Baahiya, you .should so train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard there will be merely the heard.......cognised.....” ..... S: You wrote a very good post (#54504) with a clear explanation on sabhava which we used to have long discussions about. I was heartened to see how you appreciate that sabhava is merely a synonym for ‘lakkhana’ or characteristic of dhammas . However, you mentioned that for a minority of ‘Theravadin expositors’, dhamma has ‘an entity-ness, as opposed to its merely being an entirely contingent and provisional experiential event.’ I think that talking about paramattha dhammas in terms of ‘experiential events’ is far more misleading than referring to dhammas as elements which ‘experience’ or ‘are experienced’ or ‘rise and fall’ or ‘have characteristics’ at any given time. Such terminology can easily lead to ideas of awareness of walking, talking or of the process of seeing or being seen. I appreciate that these lines to Baahiya can lead to such a conclusion if we’re not careful. So looking at the additional commentary notes (transl by Masefiled, PTS): ..... “ ‘With respect to the seen....merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’: with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-cosnciousness. For just as eye-consciousness, with respect to form (ruupe), beholds mere form (ruupa.m) alone, not its own nature of being impermanent and so on, so too the rest, meaning (you) should train yourself such that there will be for you solely and merely that seen by means of consciousness associated with the eye-door.....” ..... S: “...eye-consciousness, with respect to form (ruupe), beholds mere form (ruupa.m) alone”. When there is awareness of eye-consciousness, it is this experiencing of visible object which is known (by eye-cosnciousness). When there is awareness of visible object, it is just the characteristic of what is seen (by eye-consciousness) which is known. ..... Now, you might rightly say that this explanation is only from the commentary. However, I see no difference when I look at the suttas themselves. For example, recently some of the Samyutta Nikaya suttas in the Salayatanasamyutta section have been discussed. Here’s one: .... 35:68 Samiddhi (4) (Bodhi transl with a Pali phrase inserted): “ ‘Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, might there be the world or the description of the world?” “Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, eye-cosnciousness, things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world exists or the description for the world. [Yattha kho samiddhi atthi cakkhu atthi ruupaa atthi cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m atthi cakkhuvi~n~naa.na vi~n~naatabbaa dhammaa, atthi tattha lokl vaa lokapa~n~natti vaa] “Where there is the ear.....the mind, where there are mental phenomena, mind-consciousness, things to be cognized by mind-consciousness, there the world exists or the description of the world.” (then the reverse is given, ‘when there is no eye’ etc). .... S: Of course, as Dan said, any words can be misunderstood and a Self can easily be read in any of these lines if one is so inclined. There is a good sutta in SN, Khandhasamyutta, 22:62 called ‘The Pathways of Language’ which I was thinking of when there was some recent discussion about ‘momentary’ dhammas and the speed of passing cittas. It stresses that dhammas which have ceased are completely past, those not manifest can only be referred to in the future and that: ..... “Whatever feeling....Whatever perception...Whatever volitional formations...Whatever consciousness has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be’.” .... S: In other words, elements or khandhas arise and exist momentarily, perform their various functions and then fall away. There is no other agent, no other Self or self, nothing else at all in life. Metta, Sarah p.s A few extra unrelated comments in passing: 1. I also liked your recent post to TG (#54522) very much, with one minor quibble over the expression ‘content of experience’ which again sounds like the ‘event’. I agreed with all the points you made. 2. Thx for your kind comments on ‘discussion and debate’ (#53811)- we’re in full agreement. 3. I'll reply further to dukkha and panna posts when I have time. Thx for the feedback. Some overlap on the latter with this one. (Larry**, I thought your comments were pretty good on the panna comments in #54147, thx). 4. Thank you very much for your kind words and sympathy with regards our friend. Even though DSG has grown so much, it still is like ‘family’ in that we can all share our ups and downs and support each other here, I find. 5. Mike*, also a good message on the World in passing (#53872) – pls join in threads more! Apologies for these last cryptic comments here, especially to Joop who would like to see the mods set a good example with tidy threads***:) ==================================================== 54622 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:35pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 357 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] There are four stages of enlightenment, and at each stage defilements are progressively eradicated. Paññå has to grow keener and keener in order to be able to eradicate them. The lokuttara magga-citta (supramundane path-consciousness) which, at the first stage of enlightenment (the stage of the sotåpanna), experiences nibbåna for the first time, eradicates only the canker of wrong view. The sotåpanna still has the canker of sensuous desire, the canker of desire for rebirth and the canker of ignorance. He still has desire, but it has become less gross than the desire of the non-ariyan, the “worldling” (puthujjana). The magga-citta of the sakadågåmí (who has attained the second stage of enlightenment) does not eradicate desire, but desire has become attenuated more. The magga-citta of the anågåmí (who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) eradicates the canker of sensuous desire, but he still has the canker of desire for rebirth and the canker of ignorance. The magga-citta of the arahat eradicates the canker of desire for rebirth and the canker of ignorance. The arahat is “canker-freed”. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54623 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment is the best Treasure! sarahprocter... Ven Samahita & all, A while ago you gave some wonderful reminders on contentment (santutthi), including the following ones I particularly appreciated: --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: 1.> AN VIII 30 And how is a Bhikkhu content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with it's wings as its only burden, even so is he content with a set of robes to protect his body & almsfood to pacify his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only simple necessities as robes, belt, bowl >and razor along. This is how a Bhikkhu is content... ***** 2.> Therefore be capable, upright, & straight, > easy to instruct, gentle, & not proud, > content & easy to support with little, > with few duties, living simple & light, > with peaceful abilities, mastering all, > modest, & with no greed for support. > Do not do even a minor thing that the > wise & noble would criticize. > Sutta Nipata I, 8 ..... S: When I was looking for the lines on ‘happiness’ and ‘suffering’ as given in a sutta I quoted from recently [i.e birth is suffering, non-rebirth is happiness], I also came across the following one on happiness, suffering and contentment which follows the other one. I’d like to share it as I find it’s relevant to many discussions we have here on methods, techniques, meditation and so on: ‘Weal(sukkha) and woe (dukkha)(b), AN 10s, vi (66), PTS transl (Dutiyasukha Sutta is the Pali title): “Once the venerable Saariputta was staying among the Magadhese at Naalakagaamaka. Now the Wanderer Saamandakaani came to see him and said: ‘Pray, Saariputta, your reverence, in this dhamma-discipline what is weal(sukkha) and what is woe(dukkha)?’ ‘Your reverence, when there is discontent this woe may be looked for: Whether one goes, stands, sits, or lies, he reaches not happiness and pleasure; whether he has gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, to a lonely place, to life in the open air, to life amid the monks, he reaches not happiness and pleasure. Where there is discontent, this woe may be looked for. When there is content, your reverence, this weal may be looked for: Whether one goes, stands, sits or lies, he reaches happiness and pleasure. Whether he has gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, to a lonely place, to a life in the open air or life amid the monks, he reaches happiness and pleasure. Where there is content, your reverence, this weal may be looked for.” ..... {S: More posts on contentment can also be found in ‘Useful Posts’ under: Contentment (santu.t.thi)] Thank you for all your other good sutta quotes and comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 54624 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma bears fruit pretty quickly sometimes nilovg Hi Frank, a very striking example how unpredictable it is when kamma produses result. Nina. op 13-01-2006 02:56 schreef Frank op frank@...: > > Mouse thrown into fire sets home ablaze January 8, 2006 > FORT SUMNER, N.M. --A mouse got its revenge against a homeowner who tried to > dispose of it in a pile of burning leaves. The blazing creature ran back to > the man's house and set it on fire. 54625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218, nilovg Hi Larry, op 13-01-2006 01:59 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "the five khandhas are the widest limit as the basis for the > assumption of > self and what pertains to self." -------- L: I wonder why concept can't be a basis for the assumption of self. We might think "I am the leader". Isn't this taking concept as self? ------ N: It always amounts to a wrong interpretation of the five khandhas. Your question was why concept can't be a basis for the assumption of self, but while one interpretes the khandhas wrongly, one lives already in the world of concepts, one does not realize dhammas as they are. Because of such wrong interpretation one clings to all sorts of wrong views, to the concept of self. But in the ultimate sense what we take for self are five khandhas, or, in other words, nama and rupa that have been classified as five khandhas. We may think with conceit: I am the leader, I am such or such. As we read in the quoted sutta: <'Bhikkhus, when matter exists,... When feeling exists ... When formations exist ... When consciousness exists, it is through clinging to consciousness, through insisting upon (interpreting) consciousness, that such a view as this arises: "This is mine, this is I, this is my self" ' (S.iii,181-82).> Conceit is one of the proliferations the sutta refers to: this is I. Or: I am... As we read in Vis. 213: Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:13am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Everything is dhamma. We know this by intellectual understanding, but, later on, it can be known more deeply by direct understanding. In this way a higher level of understanding is reached, the level of insight knowledge. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Ch III, § 81, a Number of Bhikkhus, translated by Ven. Bodhi) that a number of bhikkhus told the Buddha that sectarians asked them what the purpose of the holy life lived under the ascetic Gotama was. They asked whether they had answered rightly in saying that this was for the full understanding of suffering, dukkha. The Buddha said that this was right, but if they would ask what that suffering was they should answer thus: ³The eye, friends, is suffering... Forms [N: rúpas, visible objects] are suffering... Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition... that too is suffering... the mind is suffering... Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition...that too is suffering: it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. This, friends, is that suffering for the full understanding of which the holy is lived under the Blessed One.² The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of all dhammas as they appear through the six doors. At the end of our pilgrimage we spend a few days in Kashmir on houseboats. I was clinging to Dhamma discussions and I asked Acharn Sujin whether we could have a discussion the next day. She answered that we do not know what the next moment will bring and that also hearing Dhamma is anattå. The truth has to be applied in daily life. Whatever we hear is conditioned, hearing is the result of kamma. Hearing Dhamma is the result of kusala kamma; hearing is vipåkacitta which is conditioned and which nobody can cause to arise. It is of no use to wish for the arising of certain vipåkas or to have any expectations. Acharn Sujin said that whenever there is more understanding it indicates that there has been right consideration of realities. When we consider and investigate different dhammas, this is accompanied by a level of sati, sati stemming from listening to the Dhamma. In this way direct awareness of realities will arise naturally, without one trying to be aware. If one tries to make awareness arise it is counteractive; clinging to self obstructs the development of paññå. She also said that nobody can tell whether there will be sati now. Sati can arise before we are thinking about it. We should know the difference between forgetfulness of dhammas and mindfulness of one dhamma at a time as it appears through one doorway. Otherwise we keep on talking about sati but we are ignorant of its characteristic. ***** Nina 54627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Part 2 nilovg Hi Rob M, You mentioned that the comparison between Anguttara Nikaya and the Abh. puggala paññatti pointed to a later date of the Abh. text. I did not follow this, but which are the passages concerned? Nina. op 12-01-2006 17:04 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > Tipitaka Written Down 54628 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:16am Subject: Re: kamma bears fruit pretty quickly sometimes christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Frank wrote: > Mouse thrown into fire sets home ablaze January 8, 2006 > FORT SUMNER, N.M. --A mouse got its revenge against a homeowner who tried to dispose of it in a pile of burning leaves. The blazing creature ran back to the man's house and set it on fire. > Luciano Mares, 81, of Fort Sumner said he caught the mouse inside his house and wanted to get rid of it. > "I had some leaves burning outside, so I threw it in the fire, and the mouse was on fire and ran back at the house," Mares said from a motel room Saturday. > Village Fire Chief Juan Chavez said the burning mouse ran to just beneath a window, and the flames spread up from there and throughout the house. > No was hurt inside, but the home and everything in it was destroyed. > Unseasonably dry and windy conditions have charred more than 53,000 acres and destroyed 10 homes in southeastern New Mexico in recent weeks. > "I've seen numerous house fires," village Fire Department Capt. Jim Lyssy said, "but nothing as unique as this one." Hello Frank, all, Anyone who has been severely burned and survived, would tell you that what the little mouse suffered from the intentional action of the man, was in no way the equivalent of simply losing material things like a house. The mouse lost its life, suffering unbearable agony in the process. There is nothing to say that the man who caused the mouse's death and the fire actually owned 'his' house. If he didn't, then someone else had bad 'luck', not the one causing the fire. What if he did own the house and it was insured for far more than it's current market sale value? The man would have had a financial windfall. Or if it was full of termites and would have become unliveable very soon? Again, a great result for anyone with insurance. The man whose actions harmed the mouse, would have a fortunate result from the fire in each of those cases. The fire could have been the consequences of deeds done a long time in the past. Perhaps the vipaka for cruelly harming the mouse is yet to come. Although it seems a neat connection, I don't think kamma and its results is as simple as the story implies. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54629 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:18am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta. A Lucky Guy. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Friend Htoo - Do you remember the Dhamma ways to answer questions that our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha recommended? AN III.67 Kathavatthu Sutta Topics for Discussion (I) - "If a person, when asked a question, doesn't give a categorical answer to a question deserving a categorical answer, doesn't give an analytical (qualified) answer to a question deserving an analytical answer, doesn't give a counter-question to a question deserving a counter-question, doesn't put aside a question deserving to be put aside, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with". (II) - "If a person, when asked a question, doesn't stand by what is possible and impossible, doesn't stand by agreed-upon assumptions, doesn't stand by teachings known to be true, doesn't stand by standard procedure, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with". (III) - "If a person, when asked a question, puts down [the questioner], crushes him, ridicules him, grasps at his little mistakes, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with." ............................... But, don't worry. I myself need to read this great sutta often too. It seems I am not a "person fit to talk with" either !! {:>|) (|<:} Sincerely, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I did not draw any conclusion. But if you think I am an unfit person to talk it does not hurt me and you can assume as you think. I will be anywhere to help anyone who need a hand in terms of understanding. If my services are used or not used is not a problem for me. But if service is needed I will be helping whenever I can. With warm regards, Htoo 54630 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 623 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the scripture these relationships are described as the following. Formation(sankhaara) has to arise depending on ignorance(avijjaa). (Avijjaa paccayaa sa1nkhaaraa,) Consciousness(vinnaana) has to arise depending on formation (sankhara). (sa`nkhaara paccayaa vi~n~naanaa,) Mentality-materiality have to arise depending on consciousness. (naama-ruupa) (vi~n~naana paccayaa naama-ruupam,) 6-sense-base has to arise depending on mentality-materiality. (sa.laayatana) (naama-ruupam paccayaa sa.laayatanaa) Contact has to arise depending on 6-sense-base. (phassa) (sa.laayatana paccayaa phasso,) Feeling(vedanaa) has to arise depending on contact. (phassa paccayaa vedanaa,) Craving(tanhaa) has to arise depending on feeling. (vedanaa paccayaa tanhaa,) Clinging(upadaana) has to arise depending on craving. (tanhaa paccayaa upadaanaa,) Becoming(bhava) has to arise depending on clinging. (upadaana paccayaa bhavo,) Rebirth(jaati) has to arise depending on becoming. (bhava paccayaa jaati,) Death (ageing/death) has to arise depending on rebirth. (jaraa/mara.na) (jaati paccayaa jaaraa, mara.na, soka, dukkha, parideva, dukkha, domanassupayaasaa sambhavan'ti. Evameva dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti.) To depict there are 12 links like this: 1.avijjaa --> 2.sa`khaara --> 3.vi~n~naana --> 4.naama-ruupa-->5.sa.laayatana-->6.phasso --> 7.vedanaa --> 8.tanhaa --> 9.upadaana --> 10.bhavo --> 11.jaati --> 12.jaraa/mara.na (soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, upayaasa, and many things that will surely arise or not arise while in life before death) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54631 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:37am Subject: Welcome back ! (was: Re: Information about S.N. Goenka) sarahprocter... Hi Kel, Good to hear from you again! --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Kel: During the ceremony for ordination they stated 4 things that > would make one not a monk automatically. The last one is boasting > about fake or real attainments of jhana or magga. I think it's just > a general rule of thumb that for people who are complete and secure, > they don't feel the need to boast. .... S: There may be something in this.... .... > Even arahats aren't free of habit so I would expect > organization full of ordinary people to have all sort of issues. .... S: This is a good point. Some may not like the way an arahant walks or talks for example. Yes, when any group or organization of us 'ordinary people' are together, there are bound to be issues and problems for sure! Where abouts were you in Burma/Myanmar and which temple? Is there anything more you'd like to share about your experience? I'll look forward to reading more of your posts. Metta, Sarah ======= 54632 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away y... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/13/06 2:32:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > If we say that ‘citta IS the experience’ as you would prefer, is there not > a merging or blending of citta and its object? This is not correct of > course. Citta is a completely separate element from its object (whether it > be concept or realtiy) and when there is awareness of citta, it is of its > characteristic which experiences or the momentary experiencing, if you > prefer, but not of ‘an event’. > > ======================= Well, my formulation is not that citta is the experience, but that it is the experiencing. There is a difference. I agree that experincing is not the same as the content of an experience or as the experience as a whole. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54633 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away y... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/13/06 2:32:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: You wrote a very good post (#54504) with a clear explanation on sabhava > which we used to have long discussions about. I was heartened to see how > you appreciate that sabhava is merely a synonym for ‘lakkhana’ or > characteristic of dhammas . However, you mentioned that for a minority of > ‘Theravadin expositors’, dhamma has ‘an entity-ness, as opposed to its > merely being an entirely contingent and provisional experiential event.’ > > I think that talking about paramattha dhammas in terms of ‘experiential > events’ is far more misleading than referring to dhammas as elements which > ‘experience’ or ‘are experienced’ or ‘rise and fall’ or ‘have > characteristics’ at any given time. Such terminology can easily lead to > ideas of awareness of walking, talking or of the process of seeing or > being seen. I appreciate that these lines to Baahiya can lead to such a > conclusion if we’re not careful. > > ======================= And I think that the element terminology is far more misleading and tending towards substantialism. So, bottom line, we differ on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54634 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:13pm Subject: Re: kamma bears fruit pretty quickly sometimes onco111 I know it's hardly relevant to the discussion, but the mouse story makes no sense and is probably false. http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/mousefire.asp Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Frank wrote: > > > Mouse thrown into fire sets home ablaze January 8, 2006 > > FORT SUMNER, N.M. --A mouse got its revenge against a > homeowner who tried to dispose of it in a pile of burning leaves. > The blazing creature ran back to the man's house and set it on fire. > > > Luciano Mares, 81, of Fort Sumner said he caught the mouse > inside his house and wanted to get rid of it. > > "I had some leaves burning outside, so I threw it in the fire, > and the mouse was on fire and ran back at the house," Mares said > from a motel room Saturday. > > Village Fire Chief Juan Chavez said the burning mouse ran to > just beneath a window, and the flames spread up from there and > throughout the house. > > No was hurt inside, but the home and everything in it was > destroyed. > > Unseasonably dry and windy conditions have charred more than > 53,000 acres and destroyed 10 homes in southeastern New Mexico in > recent weeks. > > "I've seen numerous house fires," village Fire Department Capt. > Jim Lyssy said, "but nothing as unique as this one." > > Hello Frank, all, > > Anyone who has been severely burned and survived, would tell you > that what the little mouse suffered from the intentional action of > the man, was in no way the equivalent of simply losing material > things like a house. The mouse lost its life, suffering unbearable > agony in the process. > > There is nothing to say that the man who caused the mouse's death > and the fire actually owned 'his' house. If he didn't, then someone > else had bad 'luck', not the one causing the fire. > What if he did own the house and it was insured for far more than > it's current market sale value? The man would have had a financial > windfall. > Or if it was full of termites and would have become unliveable > very soon? Again, a great result for anyone with insurance. > The man whose actions harmed the mouse, would have a fortunate > result from the fire in each of those cases. > > The fire could have been the consequences of deeds done a long > time in the past. Perhaps the vipaka for cruelly harming the mouse > is yet to come. > > Although it seems a neat connection, I don't think kamma and its > results is as simple as the story implies. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 54635 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:24pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 624 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We are in the cycle of no beginning. This cycle is Dependent Origination. This cycle creates birth-death and birth-death endlessly and uninterruptedly. There is no interruption between death and next birth. Between birth and death there are many dhamma and some are the resultant dhamma of previous lives's formation and some are new formations while there is a third dhamma which is neither resultant nor forming dhamma. Because of endless sufferings beings sink in the sea of ignorance and they have no time to think out the way of liberation from these sufferings. To the worst there is even no perception that these dhamma are suffering. Therefore, The Buddha preached avijjaa as the opening dhamma in the Dependent Origination. Avijjaa or ignorance is a wide subject and it may take many pages to explain what avijjaa means and what its implications are. To the short, there are avijjaa or ignorance. They are 1. micchaapa.tipatti avijjaa 2. appa.tipatti avijjaa May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54636 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218, lbidd2 Nina: "the five khandhas are the widest limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self." Hi Nina, This seems to say that concept is never (or almost never) the object of clinging. If so, what sort of consciousness apprehends concept? I'm thinking ignorance (moha) or wisdom (panna). Larry 54637 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Sarah, "Citta is an element. It is an element which knows/experiences an object." Hi Sarah, If consciousness experiences visible data, what is the experience? Vism.XV,41: "Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face." L: Eye-consciousness doesn't look at the image; eye-consciousness _is_ the image, and the image is visual experience. My understanding is that "consciousness" means experience and a certain level of knowledge. An object is a dhamma that all the consciousnesses in a citta process react to. To know a dhamma is to react to it, either as a reflection, a feeling, an association, or an intention. Vism.XV,43: "The mind-consciousness element should be regarded as a forest monkey, because it does not stay still on its object; or as a wild horse, because it is difficult to tame; or as a stick flung into the air, because it falls anyhow; or as a stage dancer, because it adopts the guise of the various defilements such as greed and hate." L: Consciousness is re-presentational, but there is no audience and, in the moment, no object, just reactive experience. Reaction, of course, is comprised of the 24 conditions. Larry 54638 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:42pm Subject: How to be a Real Buddhist on Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children(!), since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby" signed with name, date, town & country to me. I have put up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma-Sangha here! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 54639 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 0:49am Subject: kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year christine_fo... Hello All, Not wishing to cause a vegetarian vs meat eater controversy ... but surely being the entrepreneur who started the Kentucky Fried Chicken business which kills 850 million chickens (beings) each year has to have some negative kamma? http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1547575.htm And, if so, it makes me wonder ... where is the cut-off point? Are those O.K. who kill, or cause to kill, 850,000? or 85,000? or 8,500? or 850? or 85? or 8? Or are they creating negative kamma? Aren't those of us who buy and eat meat creating the demand that is responsible for encouraging the continuing slaughter of millions of beings as well (causing to kill)? It seems too pat an answer to fall back on the rules made in ancient days for monks who had no choice as to what was put into their bowls ... metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54640 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 0:11am Subject: The causes of Contentment... bhikkhu_ekamuni _Dear friend Sarah Abbott:_ Many thanx for: >Where there is contentment, happiness & pleasure can be expected... >Where there is discontent, unhappiness & frustration can be expected... _What then are the causes for the arising of this blissful contentment ?_ 1: The modesty of wanting only little is causing the emergence of contentment! 2: The mutual joy in others success is causing the emergence of contentment! Lack of both 1+2 then naturally causes the emergence of discontent... Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with it's wings as it's only burden, even so is he content with a set of robes to protect his body & almsfood to pacify his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only simple necessities as robes, belt, bowl and razor along. This is how a Bhikkhu is content... Verily contentment is the highest treasure! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 54641 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:33am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 358 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] Another group of defilements is the group of the Floods or Oghas (Dhammasangaùi §1151). There are four floods which are the same defilements as the cankers, but the classification as floods shows a different aspect. The floods are: the flood of sensuous desire (kåmogha) the flood of desire for rebirth (bhavogha) the flood of wrong view (diììhogha) the flood of ignorance (avijjogha) We read in the Atthasåliní (I, Part I, Chapter II, 49) that the “floods” submerge a person again and again in the cycle of birth and death. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 56) states: * "... The Floods are so called in the sense of sweeping away into the ocean of becoming, and in the sense of being hard to cross...." * The classification of defilements under the aspect of floods reminds us of their danger. A flood is dangerous, it can drown us. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54642 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:14am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 358 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (j) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] > > Another group of defilements is the group of the Floods or > Oghas (Dhammasangaùi §1151). There are four floods which are > the same defilements as the cankers, but the classification as > floods shows a different aspect. The floods are: > > the flood of sensuous desire (kåmogha) > the flood of desire for rebirth (bhavogha) > the flood of wrong view (diììhogha) > the flood of ignorance (avijjogha) > > We read in the Atthasåliní (I, Part I, Chapter II, 49) that the > "floods" submerge a person again and again in the cycle of birth > and death. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 56) states: > * > "... The Floods are so called in the sense of sweeping away into the ocean > of becoming, and in the sense of being hard to cross...." > * > The classification of defilements under the aspect of floods reminds us of > their danger. A flood is dangerous, it can drown us. > ***** > (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah (and Nina), Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Akusala dhamma and their characterstics are what we all should know in detail as much as possible. When the real sense of frightening in these dhamma arise then there will be possible that the way to depart them would be searched. With respect, Htoo Naing 54643 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:29am Subject: Re: kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year htootintnaing Dear Christine, I am reading and replying at the same time. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello All, Not wishing to cause a vegetarian vs meat eater controversy ... but surely being the entrepreneur who started the Kentucky Fried Chicken business which kills 850 million chickens (beings) each year has to have some negative kamma? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Kamma is wider than we think and we can think of. Only The Buddha will know fully. Kamma are related. Kamma results and their time of arising might vary. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1547575.htm And, if so, it makes me wonder ... where is the cut-off point? Are those O.K. who kill, or cause to kill, 850,000? or 85,000? or 8,500? or 850? or 85? or 8? Or are they creating negative kamma? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not? There are diversities in characters of beings. Some are tall, some short. Some are large and some small, some are big and some tiny, some are sturdy and some thin. Some have short limbs and some even limbless. Some live long while some even die in the womb. Some are famous while some even at the time of arahatship and parinibbana are never known to other beings. Some are rich and some very very poor so that they have to sell their organs like eyes, ears, limbs, kidney, blood etc etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Aren't those of us who buy and eat meat creating the demand that is responsible for encouraging the continuing slaughter of millions of beings as well (causing to kill)? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha was asked to pass vinaya rules regarding meat eating by Devadatta. The Buddha denied. The Buddha had far-reaching knowledge. The Buddha did have pros and cons whenever he passed vinaya as rules, not pass as rules and so on. While 500 million Buddhists stopped to eat meat still there will be continuing slaughtering of chicken. Arahatship is rare. Supporting dhamma also include nutriments. When a person is totally pure and completely free of sin what will be the point of not eating food that are donated or offered by devotee? --------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems too pat an answer to fall back on the rules made in ancient days for monks who had no choice as to what was put into their bowls ... metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Christine. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54644 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:32am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 > > Everything is dhamma. We know this by intellectual understanding, but, later > on, it can be known more deeply by direct understanding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Can I copy and paste this post to other groups? With respect, Htoo Naing 54645 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 625 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Avijjaa exists in many different forms. Moha is the dhamma for the name of avijjaa but there is minor difference when the owrd moha and avijjaa are used in the different context. There are avijjaa. They are 1. micchaapa.tipatti avijjaa 2. appa.tipatti avijjaa 1)Micchaapa.tipatti avijjaa This is moha. Because of this all the wrong things are being done. All the wrong things were done. All the wrong things have been done. These bad things that are wrong will still been done in future as long as there is avijjaa or ignorance. All these wrong doings are based on this micchaapa.tipatti avijjaa or 'wrong-vewer ignorance'. One may commit akusala from minor to very big and wicked one because of micchaapa.tipatti avijjaa. When such avijjaa are elimitated then much akusala are prevented from arising. 2)Appa.tipatti avijjaa This ignorance does not go in the right way. Because of this there will never be on the right way. Just sitting and thinking will not be pa.tipatti. When there is such subtle ignorance even very intelligent person will not be able to see such avijjaa or ignorance. Because of such ignorance then there have to arise the problem of non-practising. There have to arise the problem of not following the right path. There have to arise the problem of non-doing. This is appa.tipatti avijjaa. Any avijjaa will lead to formation of kamma through sa`nkhaara or fabrication or kamma-formation or committing things that would give rise to effects. Because of avijjaa, sa`nkhaara have been committed. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54646 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:15am Subject: Re: kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year scottduncan2 "Aren't those of us who buy and eat meat creating the demand that is responsible for encouraging the continuing slaughter of millions of beings as well (causing to kill)? It seems too pat an answer to fall back on the rules made in ancient days for monks who had no choice as to what was put into their bowls ..." Dear Chris, I've been feeling the quiet desire to move towards a vegetarian diet and as I sort of analyse the urge, it does seem to come from wish not to participate in the killing of other beings. My eight year old daughter expresses a similar sentiment. For her, unfortunately, as I was going through the big vegetarian recipe book I bought and ponting out that beans are one item instead of meat, she thought twice. Its a tough call. Killing is killing. Sincerely, Scott. 54647 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:37am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4 We may be discouraged to realize that very few moments of sati arise in a day or none at all. Acharn Sujin said: ²Instead of attending to the characteristics of realities there is thinking about them. But we should not have any expectations, otherwise it is me who would like to have progress.² I was grateful for such reminders. Time and again attachment to result arises but we do not notice this. Acharn Sujin said: ³The development of understanding has to go along with detachment all the way, and that is against the current of life.² We are inclined to think of a self who has to become proficient. People wonder whether there are ways to induce the arising of sati such as the development of calm. They doubt whether listening to the Dhamma is a condition for the arising of sati. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² , Book of the Fours, Ch XXV, § 6: ³Monks, these four states conduce to growth in wisdom. What four? Association with a good man, hearing Saddhamma, thorough work of mind, and behaviour in accordance with Dhamma. These are the four.² A good man is the translation of sappurisa, which usually denotes an ariyan who is a good friend in Dhamma. Saddhamma is true dhamma. Thorough work of mind stands for yoniso manasikåra, which is right attention to what one hears. Behaviour in accordance with Dhamma is dhammaanudhammapaìipatti, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. It is the application of the Dhamma one has heard and thoroughly considered through the development of satipaììhåna. When we read that listening is an important condition we should remember that also considering the Dhamma and its application are implied. ***** Nina 54648 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 nilovg Dear Htoo, I am glad to share Dhamma with others. Please do copy any part you like. Nina op 14-01-2006 14:32 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: >> Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 >> >> Everything is dhamma. We know this by intellectual understanding, > but, later >> on, it can be known more deeply by direct understanding. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Nina, > > Can I copy and paste this post to other groups? 54649 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218, nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-01-2006 02:25 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "the five khandhas are the widest limit as the basis for the > assumption of self and what pertains to self." >> This seems to say that concept is never (or almost never) the object of > clinging. If so, what sort of consciousness apprehends concept? I'm > thinking ignorance (moha) or wisdom (panna). -------- N: The text above refers to clinging to a concept of self. What do we take for self? The five khandhas or in other words nama and rupa. While one clings to wrong view, taking the khandhas for self, one does not know that they are the five khandhas or nama and rupa. One lives in darkness, does not see dhammas as they are, one clings unknowingly to the concept of self, of my seeing (khandha of consciousness), my visible object (ruupakkhandha), my feeling, my remembrance, my kusala, my akusala. Taking nama and rupa for a whole is clinging to a concept. You ask, what sort of consciousness apprehends concept? I'm thinking ignorance (moha) or wisdom (panna). > A concept is experienced through the mind-door, in a mind-door process of cittas. The first citta of that process is the mind-door adverting consciousness, and this is followed by javana cittas which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Kusala citta or akusala citta can have a concept as object, but the kusala citta that develops vipassana has nama and rupa as object. When one is generous, the kusala citta may think of the thing that is given or the person who is the receiver of the gift. Akusala citta may be accompanied by wrong view or not, but it is always accompanied by ignorance. The arahat thinks with kiriyacitta of concepts, such as persons or the names of persons. The Buddha thought of Ananda or Sariputta. Does this answer your questions? Nina. 54650 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-01-2006 03:11 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > If consciousness experiences visible data, what is the experience? > > Vism.XV,41: "Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface > of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the > eye-consciousness element as the image of the face." > > L: Eye-consciousness doesn't look at the image; eye-consciousness _is_ > the image, and the image is visual experience. ------- N: the similes are not easy, and only understandable if one reads them all. We cannot take them out of context. See the drum, the drumsticks, and the sound, where seeing is compared to the sound. It just shows that they belong together and that the sense-cognitions are conditioned. --------- L: My understanding is that "consciousness" means experience and a certain > level of knowledge. An object is a dhamma that all the consciousnesses > in a citta process react to. To know a dhamma is to react to it, either > as a reflection, a feeling, an association, or an intention. > > Vism.XV,43: "The mind-consciousness element should be regarded as a > forest monkey, because it does not stay still on its object; or as a > wild horse, because it is difficult to tame; or as a stick flung into > the air, because it falls anyhow; or as a stage dancer, because it > adopts the guise of the various defilements such as greed and hate." ------- N: It shows the danger of defilements. So often the citta is akusala citta. Difficult to tame. ---------- > L: Consciousness is re-presentational, but there is no audience and, in > the moment, no object, just reactive experience. Reaction, of course, is > comprised of the 24 conditions. --------- N: There is always an object, object-condition is one of the twentyfour conditions. Nina. 54651 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - qualities of rupa. scottduncan2 "I still think there's something to what I was wondering about the relation of . . . rupas to jhana but will put this off until I can better formulate a question." Dear Nina, All, I don't have a good question, and it will unfortunately be poorly formulated but . . . Given that there are certain experiences within meditation which are, at least for me, "of the body," (seemingly rooted in a material base), and which then become mind objects through concentration, is there a rupa component in jhana? Is the experience of piti, for example, within the first jhana based in rupa? The fifth jhana is labelled "The Sense Base of Infinite Space," for example. Is this related to pariccheda rupa? I understand, from the Abhidhammatta Sangaha, that "ecstatic concentration" (appana-samadhi) "belongs to the rupa plane." How is this meant to be understood? Also, apologies for not posting as often as I would like, the "householder life" is not amenable to frequent interaction during the week. Sincerely, Scott. 54652 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Howard, May I please come in with a question or two? " . . . sense-desire that is arising is a reality, a cetasika. Sense-desire that has fallen away is sense-desire that is past, still a cetasika, but of the past. It is called: latent tendency, indicating that it has not been eradicated yet. So there sure will be sense desire cetasika in the future." Nina. I've been shadowing the thread. Accumulations are latent tendencies, or potentialities, if I am following. The potential for sense desire to arise is conditioned by sense desire having arisen in the past. How is the past to be understood? Is it somehow present, albeit latently, until whatever aspect of it is eradicated? How does eradication function? Sincerely, Scott. 54653 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:46am Subject: Citta scottduncan2 Dear Colleagues, How exactly is one to understand the teaching that cittas can produce rupas? Sincerely, Scott. 54654 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Nina: "There is always an object, object-condition is one of the twentyfour conditions." Hi Nina, There is never an object at the same time as the conditioned consciousness in a mind-door process. In a 5-door process the conditioned consciousness does not arise as experience with the object: no experience of lobha and visible object at the same time. Larry 54655 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta nilovg Hi Scott, op 14-01-2006 18:46 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > How exactly is one to understand the teaching that cittas can produce > rupas? ------ Now!! Citta produces the element of wind (motion) and it is citta that makes your hand move now while typing, holding a paper, walking to another room. The Buddha exhorted the monks (and laypeople) to be mindful while walking, bending, stretching. This is very meaningful, we are usually forgetful. There is a certain change of the elements produced by citta which causes speech intimation, or bodily intimation by gestures. Speech intimation and bodily intimation are listed among the 28 kinds of rupa, and these two are only produced by citta. They are subtle rupas, not easy to know exactly. We should not try to catch them. Lodewijk went to his piano teacher and had to play a difficult Bach partita. He was wondering about the many things one has to remember at the same time: coordinating the fingers, using the right finger position, having the right toucher. There are cittas that are doing all this, and citta that hears, citta that knows the melody, citta that makes the hand move (producing rupas that are motion or pressure). He was wondering what kind of cittas are doing all this. I explained that there are many cittas knowing concepts through the mind-door, and these are, after the mind-door adverting-consciousness, javanacittas. Mostly cittas rooted in lobha. In between there can be cittas with dana, such as when we wanted to make a gift of music to the good nurses who had taken care of my late father. But most of the time there are sure cittas with lobha. Or aversion when we miss a note. The rupas of the body are produced by four factors as you know, by kamma, citta, heat and nutrition. Citta keeps on producing rupas throughout life so that our body does not collapse. The sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) do not produce rupa, but the other cittas in our life do. Thus, also when you are breathing, citta produces the rupa that is breath. Nina. 54656 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218, lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > op 14-01-2006 02:25 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Nina: "the five khandhas are the widest limit as the basis for the > > assumption of self and what pertains to self." > > >> This seems to say that concept is never (or almost never) the object of > > clinging. If so, what sort of consciousness apprehends concept? I'm > > thinking ignorance (moha) or wisdom (panna). > -------- > N: The text above refers to clinging to a concept of self. What do we take > for self? The five khandhas or in other words nama and rupa. > While one clings to wrong view, taking the khandhas for self, one does not > know that they are the five khandhas or nama and rupa. One lives in > darkness, does not see dhammas as they are, one clings unknowingly to the > concept of self, of my seeing (khandha of consciousness), my visible object > (ruupakkhandha), my feeling, my remembrance, my kusala, my akusala. > > Taking nama and rupa for a whole is clinging to a concept. > > You ask, what sort of consciousness apprehends concept? I'm thinking > ignorance (moha) or wisdom (panna). > > A concept is experienced through the mind-door, in a mind-door process of > cittas. The first citta of that process is the mind-door adverting > consciousness, and this is followed by javana cittas which are, in the case > of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Kusala citta or akusala > citta can have a concept as object, but the kusala citta that develops > vipassana has nama and rupa as object. > When one is generous, the kusala citta may think of the thing that is given > or the person who is the receiver of the gift. Akusala citta may be > accompanied by wrong view or not, but it is always accompanied by ignorance. > The arahat thinks with kiriyacitta of concepts, such as persons or the names > of persons. The Buddha thought of Ananda or Sariputta. > Does this answer your questions? > Nina. > Hi Nina, I'm not sure about this. It also makes sense to say one clings unknowingly to the 5 khandhas as self. It seems to me the Buddha is saying we _don't_ cling to concept as self. This puts concept on a much more utilitarian level, rather than making it a "taint" (asava), as we sometimes seem to assume. I haven't seen a clear indication of the reality status of a compact whole except to say that some concepts don't refer to anything ultimately real. When someone says "my" they are expressing attachment (upadana), but there usually isn't attachment to the word "my". If I experience a moment of disliking my computer, that doesn't mean I am disliking the word "computer". I am disliking the compact whole of the computer or the compact whole of some feature of the computer. I think the Buddha is saying I am actually disliking realities that form those compact wholes. I think I would rather call a compact whole a formation (sankhata) rather than a concept. Larry 54657 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-01-2006 19:13 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "There is always an object, object-condition is one of the twentyfour > conditions." > > There is never an object at the same time as the conditioned consciousness in > a mind-door > process. In a 5-door process the conditioned consciousness does not arise as > experience > with the object: no experience of lobha and visible object at the same time. ------ N: Sorry, I do not quite follow you here. Perhaps you mean: there cannot be another citta that experiences the lobha just fallen away and visible object at the same time? Visible object is experienced by seeing and other cittas in that process, including javana cittas with lobha, and these experience also visible object as object. When visible object is experienced by cittas of the subsequent mind-door process, then visible object is the object. There may be another mind-door process of cittas that have the lobha that arose just before as object. Then lobha is the object of cittas. There are no cittas that do not experience anything. They are nama. That which is experienced is called aaramma.na, object, it is just a name to denote what is experienced. Citta can experience as object rupa or another nama. Nina. 54658 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry and Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry" To: Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) > Nina: "There is always an object, object-condition is one of the > twentyfour > conditions." > > Hi Nina, > > There is never an object at the same time as the conditioned consciousness > in a mind-door > process. Manovi~n~naa.a can't arise simultaneously with naama or ruupa? > In a 5-door process the conditioned consciousness does not arise as > experience > with the object: no experience of lobha and visible object at the same > time. Can't the javanacittas (here cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) experiencing the object be attended simultaneously by lobha cetasika? Or am I confusing these terms? Thanks in advance for corrections. mike 54659 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Nina: " That which is experienced is called aaramma.na, object, it is just a name to denote what is experienced." Hi Nina, This seems very strange to me. I would say that which is experienced is called citta, that which conditions a process in a particular way is called aaramma.na. When I experience "like", some object conditioned that "like". "Like" is not that object now, it is an experience. The object is not an experience. This "like" may or may not become an object of another citta process. If it does, it will not be an experience in that process. The way I see it, every consciousness is an experience. Larry 54660 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:46:28 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Colleagues, How exactly is one to understand the teaching that cittas can produce rupas? Sincerely, Scott. Hi Scott Form and consciousness actually can produce each other. The Buddha actually says that --"Consciousness is supported by the Four Great Elements and bound up with them." That, to me, sounds more like consciousness is dependent on form. However, if rebirth is due to consciousness, then consciousness can lay the foundation for form as well. Personally, I think of them as both energies...and as energies they are capable of transforming back and forth. I also am not at all comfortable with the terminology of -- cittas producing rupas. It makes it sound like consciousness is creating form out of thin air. If that's the notion being advanced...I'd consider it hogwash. TG 54661 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:39am Subject: Re: Citta scottduncan2 "Now!! Citta produces the element of wind (motion) and it is citta that makes your hand move now while typing, holding a paper, walking to another room. The Buddha exhorted the monks (and laypeople) to be mindful while walking, bending, stretching. This is very meaningful, we are usually forgetful. There is a certain change of the elements produced by citta which causes speech intimation, or bodily intimation by gestures. Speech intimation and bodily intimation are listed among the 28 kinds of rupa, and these two are only produced by citta. They are subtle rupas, not easy to know exactly. We should not try to catch them. Lodewijk went to his piano teacher and had to play a difficult Bach partita. He was wondering about the many things one has to remember at the same time: coordinating the fingers, using the right finger position, having the right toucher. There are cittas that are doing all this, and citta that hears, citta that knows the melody, citta that makes the hand move (producing rupas that are motion or pressure). He was wondering what kind of cittas are doing all this. I explained that there are many cittas knowing concepts through the mind-door, and these are, after the mind-door adverting-consciousness, javanacittas. Mostly cittas rooted in lobha. In between there can be cittas with dana, such as when we wanted to make a gift of music to the good nurses who had taken care of my late father. But most of the time there are sure cittas with lobha. Or aversion when we miss a note. The rupas of the body are produced by four factors as you know, by kamma, citta, heat and nutrition. Citta keeps on producing rupas throughout life so that our body does not collapse. The sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) do not produce rupa, but the other cittas in our life do. Thus, also when you are breathing, citta produces the rupa that is breath." Nina. Dear Nina, Thank you very much. Citta changes the elements. Wind is an element. Wind is motion. Citta is one of the factors productive of the rupas of the body. Consciousness arising with intention might create motion (such as my typing which is rupa arising out of my desire to pester you with endless questions). I don't yet know how these factors interact, especially at the point at which the new life begins. Is the "production" of rupa by citta the same as the "continuation" of rupa by citta? My body, actually and in reality is being constantly "re-created." I don't know if this is an asynchronous or staggered re-creation, conditioned by an aggregate of streams of cittas each different temporal lines, or if it is synchronous. It probably doesn't matter but I was just wondering. The rupas of speech and body intimation are created by citta. I am thinking that one of the cetasikas which must accompany these cittas productive of speech or body intimation would be cetana (volition?). I think this because I think one wants to move or communicate thereby. How is this different from, or similar to kamma? Does citta produce breathing because it is a consciousness arising along with will-to-live? This is kamma is it not? Well, enough already. I am trying to read the references already given, by the way, despite what these questions might suggest. Thanks sincerely for your kind consideration. Scott. > 54662 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:42am Subject: Re: Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii onco111 Dear Sarah, I appreciate the care and thoughtfulness you put into your posts. Thank-you. You raise some interesting questions (and toss out some provocative bombs too). To wit: Sarah: "2. On Yoniso, javanas and fruit (#54175)... 3...I think when it?s suggested that the yoniso manasikara only refers to manodvaravajjana citta, it gives this citta undue importance and it's quite illogical" D:--> I don't think the logic and details of a conceptual framework are so critical. The question is whether the words are aiding the development of panya/satipatthana/vipassana or whether they are acting as a stumbling block, facilitating papanca, functioning as objects of lobha. One attractive aspect of the "manodvaravajjana as yoniso manasikara" model is that, by decidedly and unambiguously putting yoniso manasikara outside of javanas, it presents such a strong challenge to the sakayaditthi of "I will now pay wise attention to cittas and cetasikas" because the idea of control over dhammas is so wrapped up with common conceptions about javana. The model "vithi as yoniso manasikara" is more intellectually satisfying (logical) to be sure, but is there clinging to a model right now? Let's not let craving for the perfect model lead us away from understanding reality as it is. Sarah: "6. Back to (#54175) and whether the theory has to be exactly right in order to observe reality. It depends:-). In some cases it?s obvious that if the theory is wrong, the practice will be wrong." D:--> My contention is that all theories are wrong. What I mean is that no description of reality is a perfect match for reality as it is. But the purpose constructing a verbal formulation of Dhamma (or "dhammas") is not to provide a perfect match for reality but to illuminate a particular aspect of reality to the listener or talker. A particular description or model might help one person develop an insight at one moment but lead another astray at another time. Or it might help one person at one time but lead them astray later. [This is not to say that all models are equally wrong. Some are much more wrong than others.] Sarah: "To take a recent example: Math wrote an excellent post on hiri and ottappa, but mentioned in passing that shyness and fear of criticism were examples of hiri and ottappa (sobhana mental factors). If we think these kinds of dosa are skilful and to be developed, they won?t be seen for what they are." D:--> Good example. Hiri and ottappa as shyness and fear of criticism would be a terrible model. Sarah: "8. Gratitude for life and lovely sunsets and showing one?s appreciation. It came up in Bangkok too ? pure lobha!!" D:--> It's not so simple, Sarah. Sometimes it might be lobha for the beauty; other times it might be that joy and appreciation arise when there just happens to be a sunset going on, and then the mind seeks for an object to cling to. Not PURE lobha. Sarah: "10. Just at the end of this good post, I?d like to nit-pick a little however.... You write that: D: ?citta doesn?t experience sensation; Citta IS the experience, and sensation is one of the characteristics of that experience. Experience (citta) at one moment differs from that at another moment, and sensation is an aspect of each citta. So is sanya......? S: Citta can experience any object ? reality or concept. So it experiences feelings, it experiences tangible objects and anything else we like to call sensations. Citta is the experiencing of an object, it?s function is to experience that object. When there?s awareness of a citta, say ?seeing?, it is awareness of the characteristic of that nama which experiences visible object. Feeling (vedana), as you know well, accompanies all cittas. It?s not a characteristic of citta. Citta only takes the lead in experiencing its object. It doesn?t feel or perceive at all. Of course, in context, citta can refer to citta and cetasikas and maybe this is what you are referring to, in which case I misunderstood you." D:--> I don't think there's any dispute here. Vedana accompanies all cittas. Another way to say it is: A characteristic of all cittas is they are accompanied by vedana. How is that any different from saying that vedana is a characteristic of citta? And how can you say something like "seeing sees" and then say "[citta] doesn't ...perceive at all"? Isn't the "seeing" you refer to 'citta'? And the "sees", perceiving? Sarah: "However, you go on to say that: D: ?The object of sanya is the same as the object of the citta; but the cognizing itself is ?citta?, while ?sanya? is the name given to a category of ingredient that flavours the cognition.? S: Usually the texts refer to vedana as having the function of experiencing the taste or flavour of the object experienced by the citta and accompanying cetasikas. Sanna marks and remembers the object being experienced." D:--> I was thinking of "remembering" as the sense that one finds the object familiarity. This sense of familiarity is "flavoring" I was referrring to. Sarah: "11. In a post on ?Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma? (#54044), you refer to how ?Seeing sharp, clear beginnings and endings of cittas is an essential first step of development of insight? and how ?Insight into conditionality only comes with clear discernment of rise and fall and rise-and-fall.? Could you give me one or some of the references to this which you have in mind? What happened to the clear understanding and knowledge of the distinction between namas and rupas as a first stage and insight into conditionality as a second stage?" D:--> Just depends on where you start the counting. Vism discusses knowledge of rise and fall as the first of eight insight knowledges. If you want to take namarupaparicchedanyana as the first step in development of insight, that's fine. Howard: "You quote Dan saying "citta doesn’t experience sensation; Citta IS the experience," but you don't even experiment with changing your formulations along those lines, and away from verbal reification. Dan's point is that citta is not an agent. It is not a thing which does something, namely experience. It is* the doing of something. It is a mental event, experiencing." ------------------------------------------ S: "...As far as I can tell, such ideas miss the mark with regard to the importance and need for clear understanding and awareness of namas and rupas from the outset." D:--> Is there clinging to a particular formulation at the present moment? BB weighs in (CMA I:3): "The Pali word 'citta' is derived from the verbal root 'citi', to cognize, to know. The commentators define citta in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes an object (arammanam cinteti ti cittam). As the instrument, citta is that by mean of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintenti ti cittam). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamattam cittam). The third definition, in terms of sheer activity, is regarded as the most adequate of the three: that is, citta is fundamentally an activity or process of cognizing or knowing an object. It is not an agent or instrument possessing actual being in itself apart from the activity of cognizing. The definitions in terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition. ...This citta is nothing other than the act of cognizing, and that act is necessarily impermanent, marked by rise and fall." None of the three models/formulations/definitions are perfect, but each highlights a different aspect. It is good to consider citta in each of the three ways. Sarah: "As I quoted recently from the commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha: ..... ? ?Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ?Consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.?? ?That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness;?" D:--> Yes, Sarah. I find it curious that you would only cite the first two formulations (agent, instrumentality) and leave out the third (activity). Is the third not mentioned, or did you just overlook it? I don't have the copy of the commentary that you are referring to, but I bet the third is in there. S: "Citta is an element. It is an element which knows/experiences an object. That is its characteristic. Vedana (feeling, sensation[?]) is not a characteristic of citta, it arises with citta, dependent on it. Vedana can also be the object of citta, just as tangible objects, i.e rupas (sensations[??]) can be. If we say that ?citta IS the experience? as you would prefer, is there not a merging or blending of citta and its object?" D:--> I see how carrying the formulation "citta IS the experience" too far or clinging to it mightily or taking it out of the context in which it was used could lead to such confusion. Better is "citta is the experiencing." Metta, Dan 54663 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta upasaka_howard Hi again, TG and Scott - Scott, you quoted Nina having written "Now!! Citta produces the element of wind (motion) and it is citta that makes your hand move now while typing, holding a paper, walking to another room. The Buddha exhorted the monks (and laypeople) to be mindful while walking, bending, stretching. This is very meaningful, we are usually forgetful. There is a certain change of the elements produced by citta which causes speech intimation, or bodily intimation by gestures. Speech intimation and bodily intimation are listed among the 28 kinds of rupa, and these two are only produced by citta. ... " I had missed this reply of Nina's, but it is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54664 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Scott) - In a message dated 1/14/06 2:28:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > Hi Scott > > Form and consciousness actually can produce each other. The Buddha > actually > says that --"Consciousness is supported by the Four Great Elements and > bound > up with them." That, to me, sounds more like consciousness is dependent on > > form. However, if rebirth is due to consciousness, then consciousness can > lay the foundation for form as well. > > Personally, I think of them as both energies...and as energies they are > capable of transforming back and forth. > > I also am not at all comfortable with the terminology of -- cittas > producing > rupas. It makes it sound like consciousness is creating form out of thin > air. If that's the notion being advanced...I'd consider it hogwash. > > TG ========================= Physical motion ("air") of the body in breathing, limb movement, and so on often comes about due to intention. Now, "air" is one of the four primary rupas. For that matter, when there is the volition to touch something and a sensation (such as hardness) then arises, that sensation is rupa. I suspect that this is at least part of what is intended by mind-engendered rupa. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54665 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply. TG: "Form and consciousness actually can produce each other. The Buddha actually says that --'Consciousness is supported by the Four Great Elements and bound up with them.' That, to me, sounds more like consciousness is dependent on form. However, if rebirth is due to consciousness, then consciousness can lay the foundation for form as well." S: You are suggesting that there is a recursive interaction between form and consciousness? I don't know enough to say either way. That consciousness is "supported by the Four Great Elements and bound up with them" is not necessarily to say that it is "dependent" on them. When I lay on my bed it supports my body but my body isn't dependent on the bed for its existence. Is it possible to come up with an example demonstrating how form produces consciousness? TG: "Personally, I think of them as both energies...and as energies they are capable of transforming back and forth. I also am not at all comfortable with the terminology of -- cittas producing rupas. It makes it sound like consciousness is creating form out of thin air. If that's the notion being advanced...I'd consider it hogwash." S: What do you think of both as energies - form and consciousness? I'm not familiar with anything that suggest this way of seeing it (within a Buddhist framework) but maybe you might show me one. To me that doesn't make sense. "Energy" needs definition in order for me to follow you. Energy might be merely rupa of some kind. I'd need you to clarify in order for me to understand what you are suggesting. Energy might not be paramattha dhamma, either for all I know. And I don't know much. What do you think? I appreciate the chance to correspond. Sincerely, Scott. 54666 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 0:11pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... The Nanosecond Fault buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H (and all) - My message #54540 did not reply to all heresy remarks in your previous post #54537. This post finishes up the unfinished business. (|<:} >Ken H : Rob M places a lot of emphasis on the absence (in the suttas) of the word "paramattha" even though no one can see why the terminology (as distinct from the meaning) is quite so important! Tep: The important fact is that not only the word 'paramattha' cannot be found in the suttas, but neither you can prove the claim that rupa, cetasika, and citta all arise and fall within a time-interval smaller than one billionth second (one nano second). Most important is the fact that even if a citta and associated cetasikas were that fast, such information would NOT be useful at all in vipassana bhavana. .......... >Ken H: Other studious DSG members have come up with a list of equivalent terms that *are* used in the suttas. One striking example I can remember is where the Buddha says, "In truth and reality there is no self." (Meaning; "In the ultimate sense there is no self," meaning'; "All paramattha dhammas bear the inherent characteristic, anatta.") Tep: That's you own interpretation, Ken. Similar to a blind man says the whole world is totally dark. ............. >Ken H: My advice to you, Tep, is to have one aim in Dhamma study: Ask the question, "What is the All (what is ultimately real now - at this present moment)" and devote your entire efforts to finding the answer. Tep: The answer was already found and given by the Buddha in the Sutta-Pitaka. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and RobM), > > We were discussing the Sunna Sutta: > > --------------------------------- > Tep: > Correction! I am sorry to say that the Buddha neither talked > about the "ultimate sense", nor did he call the "All" > (equivalently, "the world") paramattha dhammas. > ---------------------------------- > (snipped) > ---------------------------------------------- > T: > However, I agree with you that this is a good > example about contemplating emptiness of the "All" (sabba dhamma). > ----------------------------------------------- > > Yes, and what is the "All" that is empty? > > (quote)" The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a > self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or > of anything pertaining to a self." (end quote) > > Why doesn't the Buddha say that the cheekbone and the chin, for > example, are empty of self? It is because the eye is a paramattha > dhamma whereas the cheekbone and other parts of the conventionally > known body (including the conventionally known eye) are not. Only > paramattha dhammas have inherent characteristics: concepts have > nothing. > (snipped) 54667 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Larry and Nina, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:13 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't > run away yet, DAN 1.ii) > > > > Nina: "There is always an object, object-condition is one of the > > twentyfour > > conditions." > > > > Hi Nina, > > > > There is never an object at the same time as the conditioned consciousness > > in a mind-door > > process. > > Manovi~n~naa.a can't arise simultaneously with naama or ruupa? > > > In a 5-door process the conditioned consciousness does not arise as > > experience > > with the object: no experience of lobha and visible object at the same > > time. > > Can't the javanacittas (here cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) experiencing the object be > attended simultaneously by lobha cetasika? Or am I confusing these terms? > Thanks in advance for corrections. > > mike Hi Mike, I haven't read this anywhere, but it makes sense to me that the object of a mind-door process is always a consciousness, and two consciousnesses can't arise at the same time. That would be tantamount to two experiences at the same time. A javana citta and eye- consciousness can't arise at the same time. Granted, every consciousness arises with a host of cetasikas but I don't think two cetasikas can be experienced at the same time. This creates the problem of what is experienced. Nina seems to solve this problem by saying the object is the experience. To me, this is problematic. How is "like" the experience of visible object? Certainly I like this visible object, but "like" is one thing and "visible object" is another. If we say "like" is an experience of "visible object" we mix them together. I would rather say "like" is a conditioned response to "visible object". By "like" I mean lobha mula citta or alobha mula citta "characterized" by piti. Larry 54668 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta scottduncan2 Howard: "Physical motion ("air") of the body in breathing, limb movement, and so on often comes about due to intention. Now, "air" is one of the four primary rupas. For that matter, when there is the volition to touch something and a sensation (such as hardness) then arises, that sensation is rupa. I suspect that this is at least part of what is intended by mind-engendered rupa." S: Dear Howard, Thanks. I was just wondering about the role of intention and volition. I might have suspected what you suspected had I known enough to do so but it does make a certain sense. Sincerely, Scott. 54669 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry, Thanks for this detailed and thoughtful reply, I find it very interesting ground for discussion but am out of time till at least tomorrow. Please do hang in there and I'll respond as soon as I can. Thanks for your patience. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry" To: Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: >> >> Hi Larry and Nina, >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Larry" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please >> don't >> run away yet, DAN 1.ii) > I haven't read this anywhere, but it makes sense to me that the object of > a mind-door > process is always a consciousness, and two consciousnesses can't arise at > the same time. > That would be tantamount to two experiences at the same time. A javana > citta and eye- > consciousness can't arise at the same time. Granted, every consciousness > arises with a > host of cetasikas but I don't think two cetasikas can be experienced at > the same time. This > creates the problem of what is experienced. Nina seems to solve this > problem by saying > the object is the experience. To me, this is problematic. How is "like" > the experience of > visible object? Certainly I like this visible object, but "like" is one > thing and "visible object" > is another. If we say "like" is an experience of "visible object" we mix > them together. I > would rather say "like" is a conditioned response to "visible object". By > "like" I mean lobha > mula citta or alobha mula citta "characterized" by piti. > > Larry 54670 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:32pm Subject: Re: kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year christine_fo... Hello Htoo, Scott, all, Thank you for your posts. I don't believe the Buddha instructed that we must eat meat, or encouraged us to kill and eat animals. If he did, I would be interested in any such sutta. His instructions to monks were more to discourage those who may have been likely to pick and choose what was put in their bowls by lay people, or at whose house they would prefer to accept invitations to meals. I think they were not supposed to differentiate between food or people on the basis of personal preference. If the donation of food included some of the cooked meat that the family had eaten, they were not to reject it. They were not to regard the donated food as anything other than enough fuel to keep the body going. Ajahn Brams tells of a practice where everything put into a monk's bowl should be mixed together - the sweet, sour, hot and cold - and not even looking to see what was donated. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54671 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:15pm Subject: The Purpose of Purification ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Goal of Mental Refinement is the Sublime Happiness! The purpose of purification of Morality is purification of Mentality! The purpose of purification of Mind is the purification of Understanding! The purpose of purification of Understanding is the overcoming of Doubt! The purpose of overcoming Doubt is knowing what to do & what not to do! The purpose of knowing what to do & not do is purification of the Method! The purpose of purification of the Method is purity of Knowledge & Vision! The purpose of purification of Knowledge & Vision is Release of all clinging! The purpose of Relinquishing all clinging is the only Supreme Bliss: Nibbana... Source: The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya. Sutta 24 Relays. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54672 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:51am Subject: [dsg] In praise of SN 35 ( was Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) philofillet Hi NIna > Ph: Jon and > > Sarah had a question that you had requested be asked something very > > detailed about the tiny tiny particles of visible object, or > > something. (snip of how A. Sujin refused to answer, urging us to study what can appear now) > ------- > N: Some details about how many groups with visible object would have to > impinge so that it can be seen. I don't worry now, and I get the point. Ph: You're very modest as always, Nina. I should have added that you weren't asking rooted in your own desire to have it known now, but just for some translation you were doing, I think. Still, at another time, she could have answered, because it is good to know on paper what the Buddha enlightened - that is enough for many of the realities we will not know ourselves. It can deepen our respect for the unfathomable wisdom of the Buddha, as long as we don't make the mistake of thinking we can understand what he understood to anything more than a very modest degree. > Going on with things we cannot know now distracts from understanding this > very moment. To me the details of how accumulations operate is such a point. Ph: To me these days, to be honest, most of what is discussed at DSG is such a point. To me there is no point in discussing what citta appears to mean to us, or what our experience tells us it is - we can read or listen to what the Buddha and the ancient Arahants explained. There is no fault in what they teach. If something in Abhidhamma doesn't "make sense" (such as cittas rising and falling away a billion times in a second, or rupa arising from citta) we shouldn't be surprised. We are not the Buddha. Note it as taught, and move on to what can be understood now - seeing etc. Otherwise we are like children playing Buddha with cittas rooted in attachment and ignorance, following our examined experience deeper into delusion. That is the way I feel about things now. We'll see if that changes. Hi NIna > Ph: Jon and > > Sarah had a question that you had requested be asked something very > > detailed about the tiny tiny particles of visible object, or > > something. (snip of how A. Sujin refused to answer, urging us to study what can appear now) > ------- > N: Some details about how many groups with visible object would have to > impinge so that it can be seen. I don't worry now, and I get the point. Ph: You're very modest as always, Nina. I should have added that you weren't asking rooted in your own desire to have it known now, but just for some translation you were doing, I think. Still, at another time, she could have answered, because it is good to know on paper what the Buddha enlightened - that is enough for many of the realities we will not know ourselves. It can deepen our respect for the unfathomable wisdom of the Buddha, as long as we don't make the mistake of thinking we can understand what he understood to anything more than a very modest degree. Ph; > Going on with things we cannot know now distracts from understanding this > very moment. To me the details of how accumulations operate is such a point. Ph: To me these days, to be honest, most of what is discussed at DSG is such a point. To me there is no point in discussing what citta appears to mean to us, or what our experience tells us it is - we can read or listen to what the Buddha and the ancient Arahants explained. There is no fault in what they teach. If something in Abhidhamma doesn't "make sense" (such as cittas falling away a billion times in a second or rupa arising conditioned by citta) we shouldn't be surprised. We are not the Buddha. We are ignorant, lobha driven worldlings. Note the sublimely deep points as taught, and move on to what can be understood now - seeing etc. Otherwise we are like children playing Buddha with cittas rooted in attachment and ignorance, following our examined experience down Moha Avenue. That is the way I feel about things now. We'll see if that changes. Of course there is experience that can be examined and understood with wholesome cittas, but the range of this experience is much much narrower than we would like to think, much much narrower than our culturally-driven desire for results drives us to seek - in my opinion. Phil 54673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:09am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5 During our pilgrimage Acharn Sujin emphasized the role of saññå, remembrance, and in partucular remembrance of Dhamma as the proximate cause of satipatthåna. Saññå arises with each citta and its function is ³marking² and remembering the object that citta experiences. At the moment of seeing, saññå marks visible object and when seeing has fallen away saññå arising with the following cittas performs its function of marking and remembering. It accompanies the cittas that define and name what has been seen. On account of visible object we think about persons and things and saññå performs its function while it accompanies thinking. We think time and again of persons, things and events, but without saññå there could not be such thinking. Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly and it seems, that seeing, defining and thinking all arise at the same time, but only one citta arises at a time. When we recognize or remember things we should know that it is saññå, not self, that is doing so. Lodewijk remarked that memories of the past can worry us. There are things we do not want to remember, but memories still come back and this shows that saññå is beyond control. Acharn Sujin said: ³When there is no paññå it is not known that saññå is anattå. We think about it and do not want to have it, but instead we should understand how it arises because of conditions.² I said that we are more inclined to think than to be directly aware of realities. Acharn Sujin answered: ³Paññå can see the difference between thinking and the direct experience of the truth. We cling to wholesome thinking and to the importance of self who thinks.² We usually remember concepts of people and things and we continue thinking of them. Seeing arises and it experiences only visible object. Acharn Sujin said: ³No one can change the characteristic of seeing which experiences visible object now. But there is not always remembrance of the Dhamma.² ****** Nina 54674 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Never enough about knowing nama from rupa, eh? ( was Atta -sa~n~na philofillet Hi Nina and all > > Ph: I see the Cetasikas corner is on these many kinds of > > defilements. I tried to re-read the chapter, about floods and > > fetters and cankers but I felt lost in concepts. At another time, it > > will click. > -------- > N: It helps to wait and not study too many details. The classifications of > groups of defilements have only one purpose: to instill a sense of urgency > to develop understanding of the akusala that presents itself now. Ph: I can see that. I remember last year discussing with Robert K all the similes (13 or so) that are used for the khandas in one sutta - traitor, disease, and so on, I forget them. I though, why not just approach khandas in paramattha terms, why the conventional imagery. He spoke very forcefully about how helpful these similes can be to drive home dangerous it is to cling to the khandas. Later, I came to understand that better and the similes were helpful. There may be conditions for me to understand the floods, fetters, cankers etc. > When a stage of insight arises, nama and rupa are understood as they are in > a mind-door process. Then it is known what a mind-door process is that > experiences rupa through the mind-door, rupa, not a concept on account of > rupa. Ph: Thank you for explaining again. Understanding is not developed enough yet for me to get this. That's ok. It may click one of these days, or years, or lifetimes. Who knows. It's no fault of your explaining. It is the listeners conditions to understand that are the biggest factor. You explain very well. (I say that because recently I heard you in one of the talks saying that you think you didn't explain well enough.) >> N: All namas are more subtle than rupas. But there is no need to think about > this, it will be understood more clearly. Ph: OK There is not awareness of nama in > a general sense or rupa in a general sense. Ph: OK. I had misunderstood this piont. Different namas and rupas > present themselves and awareness can begin to be aware of them. Ph: And this understanding develops gradually, naturally, sankhara khandas performing their functions. There is a fantastic talk excerpt that I still want to transcribe, but now I will only be able to come here once a week. Doing lots of writing and studying. Not much time. And now I have to go cook. But next week. Awareness of > their characteristics, that is to say, not naming them hardness or rupa, not > thinking about them. But hardness is appearing through the bodydoor, and > visible object through the eyedoor, there is no confusion about them. Ph: I heard that, generally speaking, it is harder to understood visible object than sound, for example. Is this because there is so much seeing, compared to the other sense doors, it is always happening, so there has been more ignorance accumulated that needs to be penetrated? I think it is safe to say that I have on occasion had a bare awareness experience of sound, but I can't say I have ever had awareness of visible object. As Azita says in one talk, "I always see people!" Could I ask you to write a few thoughts on knowing visible object as compared to knowing sound, or smell or touch etc? Thanks in advance, Nina. Phil 54675 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] In praise of SN 35 nilovg Hi Phil, op 15-01-2006 10:51 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Still, at another time, she could have answered, because it is > good to know on paper what the Buddha enlightened - that is enough > for many of the realities we will not know ourselves. It can deepen > our respect for the unfathomable wisdom of the Buddha, as long as we > don't make the mistake of thinking we can understand what he > understood to anything more than a very modest degree. ------- N: I heard the other day: the Buddha's wisdom is like the ocean. We cannot fathom all that is taught, only a very small part. And only by the development of direct understanding. -------- Ph: > we can read or listen to what the Buddha and the ancient Arahants > explained. There is no fault in what they teach. If something in > Abhidhamma doesn't "make sense" (such as cittas rising and falling > away a billion times in a second, or rupa arising from citta) we > shouldn't be surprised. We are not the Buddha. Note it as taught, > and move on to what can be understood now - seeing etc. Otherwise we > are like children playing Buddha with cittas rooted in attachment > and ignorance, following our examined experience deeper into > delusion. > > Of course there is experience that can be examined and understood > with wholesome cittas, but the range of this experience is much much > narrower than we would like to think, much much narrower than our > culturally-driven desire for results drives us to seek - in my > opinion. ------- N: I could not agree more. Therefore, let us look at our own life now. I like to approach the Abhidhamma from a practical side, otherwise one gets lost in theories and abstractions which do not lead to understanding this moment. Nina. 54676 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Never enough about knowing nama from rupa, eh? ( was Atta -sa~n~na nilovg Hi Phil, op 15-01-2006 11:17 schreef Phil op philco777@...: I remember last year discussing with Robert K > all the similes (13 or so) that are used for the khandas in one > sutta - traitor, disease, and so on, I forget them. I though, why > not just approach khandas in paramattha terms, why the conventional > imagery. He spoke very forcefully about how helpful these similes > can be to drive home dangerous it is to cling to the khandas. Later, > I came to understand that better and the similes were helpful. There > may be conditions for me to understand the floods, fetters, cankers > etc. ------- N: What a coincidence. Just now I am working at the similes in Visuddhimagga. They are not easy, but I try to understand the reason for them: seeing the danger and disadvantages of being in the cycle. -------- > Ph: It's no fault of your explaining. It is the listeners conditions > to understand that are the biggest factor. ------ N: Lodewijk tells me to think of the position of different listeners, and he finds their remarks to me very understandable. I should think of different angles of explaining if one way does not help. -------- > Ph: And this understanding develops gradually, naturally, sankhara > khandas performing their functions. There is a fantastic talk > excerpt that I still want to transcribe, ------- N: Kh Sujin used a simile of a cake: many ingredients are needed in combination for the baking of a cake. Evenso, for the development of paññaa a combination of wholesome qualtiies are needed, such as all the perfections. I just read that the Co. to the ŒTo be devoured¹ sutta, S. III, 86 mentioned in a note by B.B. compares the formations khandha with the ingredients needed for a cake. A helpful simile. ----------- > Ph: I heard that, generally speaking, it is harder to understood > visible object than sound, for example. Is this because there is so > much seeing, compared to the other sense doors, it is always > happening, so there has been more ignorance accumulated that needs > to be penetrated? I think it is safe to say that I have on occasion > had a bare awareness experience of sound, but I can't say I have > ever had awareness of visible object. As Azita says in one talk, "I > always see people!" > > Could I ask you to write a few thoughts on knowing visible object > as compared to knowing sound, or smell or touch etc? ------- N: I see not much point in doing this. It depends on the individual what is more difficult for him, who can tell what his accumulations are? I would say: all dhammas are difficult to understand because of our ignorance. Realizing sound as a kind of rupa, this is not easy either. When our eyes are open, colour appears, and there is not always thinking of people or things, but, there is ignorance, not knowing anything. It is true that we cling very much to the things and persons that are perceived on account of what is seen. Nina. 54677 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:39am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 220 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 220 Text Vis.: 4. 'As to simile': the materiality aggregate [as object] of clinging is like a sick-room because it is the dwelling-place, as physical basis, door, and object, of the sick man, namely, the consciousness aggregate as object of clinging. ------ N: The khandha of consciousness, citta, is like the sick man, and the ruupas that are the physical base, the sensedoor and the sense object are like the place where the sickness occurs, as the Tiika states. ------- Text Vis.: The feeling aggregate as object of clinging is like the sickness because it afflicts. ------ N: The Tiika explains that the feeling that is the sickness should be understood as the three kinds of dukkha: dukkha-dukkha, dukkha due to change (vipari.naamadukkha) and sa²nkhaaradukkha. dukkha-dukkha is intrinsic pain, which is bodily painful feeling and mental unhappy feeling. Dukkha due to change is suffering due to pleasant feeling, which brings suffering when it comes to an end. Sa²nkhaaradukkha is suffering inherent in all conditioned dhammas because they are oppressed by rise and fall. ------- Text Vis.: The perception aggregate as object of clinging is like the provocation of the sickness because it gives rise to feeling associated with greed, etc., owing to perception of sense desires, and so on. ------ N: Saññaa is the provocation of sickness. The Tiika explains that just as the disorders of bile and so on, are the immediate cause of disease, so the perception which seizes the features of a man or a woman is the immediate cause of suffering due to change and so on, while it gives rise to feeling associated with lust. ----- Text Vis.: The formations aggregate as object of clinging is like having recourse to what is unsuitable because it is the source of feeling, which is the sickness; for it is said: 'Feeling as feeling is the formed that they form' (S.iii,87), and likewise: 'Because of unprofitable kamma having been performed and stored up, resultant body-consciousness has arisen accompanied by pain' (Dhs.556). -------- N: Feeling is formed, conditioned (sa²nkhaara), by a combination of conditioning factors. The expression Œthey form¹ is the translation of the Pali abhisa²nkaronti. The cetasikas, other than feeling and saññaa are sa²nkhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, and the chief of these cetasikas is cetanaa, volition or kamma (Co. to the ŒTo be devoured¹ sutta, S. III, 86). Akusala kamma that has been performed and accumulated (upacita) produces vipaaka in the form of body-consciousness accompanied by painful feeling. As we have seen, saññaa is the near cause (aasannakaara.na) of sickness, just as bile or phlegm. The formations, with cetanaa as chief, are the root-cause (muula-kaara.na) of the sickness which is the dukkha of feeling, just as adversity as to temperature and food are the rootcause of sickness. -------- Text Vis.: The consciousness aggregate as object of clinging is like the sick man because it is never free from feeling, which is the sickness. --------- Conclusion: By this simile the disadvantage of being in the cycle of birth and death has been shown. Time and again saññaa seizes the features of a pleasant object, such as a person or a thing, and gives rise to feeling with clinging, and therewith is the provocation of the sickness which is feeling. Feeling is sickness because it is subject to the three kinds of dukkha. The Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of the Abhidhamma and Co. p. 281 ) explains that feeling and saññaa constitute enjoyment and what facilitates that. Perversity of saññaa facilitates clinging. As the Co. explains: Œ...when it occurs in the matter of the distorted view [N:vipallaasa or perversity] that perceives the beautiful in the ugly, recognition (saññaa) becomes a facilitator of that.¹ We can be reminded that we are suffering from sickness at this moment. This simile can instill a sense of urgency to take recourse in the cure of illness, which is the development of insight leading to the eradication of all defilements. ******* Nina. 54678 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:53am Subject: Abhidhamma questions. nilovg Hi Larry, Mike, Scott, TG, I try to combine, you guys have so many questions. I am working so hard to get Vis. Ch XIV, finished before going to Bgk in two and a half week. T.G. : citta creating rupa, this was a point for you. I understand that. The Pali has: cittaja ruupa. Ja: originated from, produced by, born of. Janati: to produce. Do not think of a creator. There are four factors from which rupa originates as you know. It does not help to think in a scientific way, or think of energy. We better approach the matter in a daily life way: when you laugh or wince, different cittas produce rupas of what we call face. If we wonder too much how, it is not helpful, it distracts from developing insight. See my correspondance with Phil: the Buddha's wisdom is not ours. Mike paints: citta knows how the painting should look (oil painting? landscapes?) and citta makes the hand move putting on the right paint, giving the finishing touches. This example is also explained by the Expositor. Lodewijk reminded me of the Dhammapada text that citta is the forerunner, showing how powerful citta is. It can achieve great things. We cannot say nama and rupa produce each other, but rather: in this plane they are dependent on each other. Like the man and the boat going out to sea. (Vis.). What Mike says, citta accompanied by like or lobha is correct and also Larry's answer, no problem. Only alobha and piiti at the end not so clear. Larry, there are words experience, experiencing, and before we know there is a confusion about words. Htoo stressed that Pali is necessary next to the English to avoid confusion. Shall we use only the Pali citta, cetasika? You learn Pali, don't you? Are you a member of the Pali list, just curious. You spoke about compact whole. There is a difference in meaning depending on the context. Heap, rasii is used for khandha. The Buddha classified ultimate dhammas as five khandhas, and this is for teaching purposes. We learn to analyse them, this is by insight. Nama and rupa should not be taken together. Taking nama and rupa as a whole has another meaning: failing to realize them as they are: conditioned elements that arise and fall away, that are impermanent and not self. Sa"nkhata or sankhaara is said of all conditioned dhammas. These have to fall away, are impermanent. When there is perversity of saññaa it wrongly remembers dhammas as lasting, bringing happiness, as self. There is wrong view when we think that dhammas have an owner, a possessor. Scott, also kusala is accumulated, not only akusala. Fortunately! Otherwise we could not learn from listening and discussion. But we can notice that what we learnt in the past is remembered. Not only intention, cetanaa cetasika, plays a role in causing motion. Citta and all accompanying cetasikas. If we think: I want to move hand or leg, it seems that one thinks of volition as self. But there is no time to think of volition, there are several conditions coming together and they operate extremely fast. You said: Is the "production" of rupa by citta the same as the "continuation" of > rupa by citta? My body, actually and in reality is being constantly > "re-created." I don't know if this is an asynchronous or staggered > re-creation, conditioned by an aggregate of streams of cittas each > different temporal lines, or if it is synchronous.> We should think of the four factors that produce rupas of the body, they are actually groups of rupas consisting of at least eight rupas. This happens continuously, all at the same time. Rupas that fall away are replaced so long as there are conditions. At the first moment of life only kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and three groups of rupa. Citta produces the rupas that we call breath, it does not have anything to do with the will to live. As to piiti, rapture, this conditions rupas as we can notice. When playing the piano the music can take me along with enthusiasm, and this conditions rupas of the body. Piiti is also a jhanafcator, then it arises with kusala citta. The jhanacitta only experiences the meditation subject, but when emerging from jhana insight can be developed of the jhanafcators as being non-self. Or the meditator can consider the jhanafacor as coarse to be abandoned so as to attain a higher, more subtle stage of jhana. Appaana: this is attainment-concentration of the degree of jhaana. Here ruupa plane: the plane of citta that is ruupa-jhaana, or fine-material jhaana. For Joop or others who still have some trouble with the term accumulation: Lodewijk said that he remembers what the piano teacher said yesterday and this accumulates, he can follow it up. He can learn a poem by heart by repetition, his remembrance accumulates. I think we should not try to find how it works, but it works. And each citta falls away, no store or stock. ***** Nina. 54679 From: Vijita Teoh Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:58am Subject: Ajahn Suk ( Dana, Sila & Bhavana ) vijitateoh Hi Sobhana, Karuna & all, The members of the Sungai Puyu Chanting Group, Wat Pothichareantham, Butterworth planned to visit Ajahn Suk on 2 FEB 2006 ( 5th day of Chinese New Year ). It is the group's yearly activity on that day. My last visit to Ajahn Suk was on 14 DEC 2005. The road leading to Kg Pong had been repaired & resurfaced at some part but the heavy rain on that day damaged a part of the road near a river that flow across it. However, it was repaired when we were leaving Kg Pong. The hall under construction will not have a single piece of wood to avoid termites. The roof will be supported by iron beams & the bottom part of the building will be made of cement. No wall at 3 sides except the front part, where a buddha rupa will be placed. It is quite a big hall that can be used as meditation hall or multi purpose hall. I talked to Ajahn Suk about meditation retreats & he's willing to teach. In fact, he encourages everyone who went to offer Dana, to take Sila & Bhavana at every visit. If you're coming to Penang this Chinese New Year, try to arrange for this visit. In fact, everyone who are interested are welcome to join us. I may be contacted at vijitateoh@... or mobile phone 019-578 9898 or 016-462 9898. Sadhu. With metta, Vijita Teoh 54680 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:35am Subject: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - The following is very good! I do have a question or two. It seems that what is called sa~n~na is not one operation, but at least two related ones, and that we simply speak of that aggregate of related operations using a single name. One operation, called "marking" seems to be a special noting (of an arammana, or possibly of several if not all the elements of a mindstate). It seems that the "marking" operation might well even apply to more than single mindstates, inasmuch as we recognize conventional objects like trees, houses, people etc, and not just paramattha dhammas. Of course, that may not really be so. Perhaps many of the individual dhammas that arose and were "marked" during the original oserving of those conventional objects are simply now recollected, and our mind then goes through similar "summing up" processing to what it did originally. But somehow that doesn't seem to quite cut it. We *do* seem to remember "that old house" as a mental unit, and not just its components. Perhaps sa~n~na recollection aspect includes a "grouping mechanism" in addition to the recollection of individual dhammas. That is, it seems that one "sa~n~nic" operation is an elementrary conceptualization operation, both at the marking and at the recollection stages. (Just some thoughts, Nina). With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/15/06 5:09:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5 > > During our pilgrimage Acharn Sujin emphasized the role of saññå, > remembrance, and in partucular remembrance of Dhamma as the proximate cause > of satipatthåna. > Saññå arises with each citta and its function is ³marking² and remembering > the object that citta experiences. At the moment of seeing, saññå marks > visible object and when seeing has fallen away saññå arising with the > following cittas performs its function of marking and remembering. It > accompanies the cittas that define and name what has been seen. On account > of visible object we think about persons and things and saññå performs its > function while it accompanies thinking. We think time and again of persons, > things and events, but without saññå there could not be such thinking. > Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly and it seems, that seeing, defining > and thinking all arise at the same time, but only one citta arises at a > time. When we recognize or remember things we should know that it is saññå, > not self, that is doing so. > Lodewijk remarked that memories of the past can worry us. There are things > we do not want to remember, but memories still come back and this shows that > saññå is beyond control. Acharn Sujin said: ³When there is no paññå it is > not known that saññå is anattå. We think about it and do not want to have > it, but instead we should understand how it arises because of conditions.² > I said that we are more inclined to think than to be directly aware of > realities. > Acharn Sujin answered: ³Paññå can see the difference between thinking and > the direct experience of the truth. We cling to wholesome thinking and to > the importance of self who thinks.² > We usually remember concepts of people and things and we continue thinking > of them. Seeing arises and it experiences only visible object. Acharn Sujin > said: ³No one can change the characteristic of seeing which experiences > visible object now. But there is not always remembrance of the Dhamma.² > > ****** > Nina > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54681 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:55am Subject: Aristotle on Recollection upasaka_howard Hi, all - The following is a segment of a work by Aristotle on memory. I took it from the material at the following site: http://www.augustana.edu/users/psmccallum/Aristotle's%20On%20Memory%20and%20Reminiscence.htm I find the entire work remarkable in its modernity, and I am also impressed at the non-substantialist, almost this/that conditionality, perspective expressed in the following segment. (I'm not proposing this as"Buddhist," of course. I'm just sending it on as a matter of interest for those who are interested in looking it over.) With metta, Howard Next comes the subject of Recollection, in dealing with which we must assume as fundamental the truths elicited above in our introductory discussions. For recollection is not the 'recovery' or 'acquisition' of memory; since at the instant when one at first learns (a fact of science) or experiences (a particular fact of sense), he does not thereby 'recover' a memory, inasmuch as none has preceded, nor does he acquire one ab initio. It is only at the instant when the aforesaid state or affection (of the aisthesis or upolepsis) is implanted in the soul that memory exists, and therefore memory is not itself implanted concurrently with the continuous implantation of the (original) sensory experience. Further: at the very individual and concluding instant when first (the sensory experience or scientific knowledge) has been completely implanted, there is then already established in the person affected the (sensory) affection, or the scientific knowledge (if one ought to apply the term 'scientific knowledge' to the (mnemonic) state or affection; and indeed one may well remember, in the 'incidental' sense, some of the things (i.e. ta katholou) which are properly objects of scientific knowledge); but to remember, strictly and properly speaking, is an activity which will not be immanent until the original experience has undergone lapse of time. For one remembers now what one saw or otherwise experienced formerly; the moment of the original experience and the moment of the memory of it are never identical. Again, (even when time has elapsed, and one can be said really to have acquired memory, this is not necessarily recollection, for firstly) it is obviously possible, without any present act of recollection, to remember as a continued consequence of the original perception or other experience; whereas when (after an interval of obliviscence) one recovers some scientific knowledge which he had before, or some perception, or some other experience, the state of which we above declared to be memory, it is then, and then only, that this recovery may amount to a recollection of any of the things aforesaid. But, (though as observed above, remembering does not necessarily imply recollecting), recollecting always implies remembering, and actualized memory follows (upon the successful act of recollecting). But secondly, even the assertion that recollection is the reinstatement in consciousness of something which was there before but had disappeared requires qualification. This assertion may be true, but it may also be false; for the same person may twice learn (from some teacher), or twice discover (i.e. excogitate), the same fact. Accordingly, the act of recollecting ought (in its definition) to be distinguished from these acts; i.e. recollecting must imply in those who recollect the presence of some spring over and above that from which they originally learn. Acts of recollection, as they occur in experience, are due to the fact that one movement has by nature another that succeeds it in regular order. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54682 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:15am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma questions. scottduncan2 "Scott, also kusala is accumulated, not only akusala. Fortunately! Otherwise we could not learn from listening and discussion. But we can notice that what we learnt in the past is remembered. Not only intention, cetanaa cetasika, plays a role in causing motion. Citta and all accompanying cetasikas. If we think: I want to move hand or leg, it seems that one thinks of volition as self. But there is no time to think of volition, there are several conditions coming together and they operate extremely fast. You said: Is the "production" of rupa by citta the same as the "continuation" of rupa by citta? My body, actually and in reality is being constantly "re-created." I don't know if this is an asynchronous or staggered re-creation, conditioned by an aggregate of streams of cittas each different temporal lines, or if it is synchronous. We should think of the four factors that produce rupas of the body, they are actually groups of rupas consisting of at least eight rupas. This happens continuously, all at the same time. Rupas that fall away are replaced so long as there are conditions. At the first moment of life only kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and three groups of rupa. Citta produces the rupas that we call breath, it does not have anything to do with the will to live. As to piiti, rapture, this conditions rupas as we can notice. When playing the piano the music can take me along with enthusiasm, and this conditions rupas of the body. Piiti is also a jhanafcator, then it arises with kusala citta. The jhanacitta only experiences the meditation subject, but when emerging from jhana insight can be developed of the jhanafcators as being non-self. Or the meditator can consider the jhanafacor as coarse to be abandoned so as to attain a higher, more subtle stage of jhana. Appaana: this is attainment-concentration of the degree of jhaana. Here ruupa plane: the plane of citta that is ruupa-jhaana, or fine-material jhaana." Nina. Dear Nina, Thank you very much. I'll study this. Sincerely, Scott 54683 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada sbillard2000 Thanks for the explanation, it is becoming clearer even if I am going to do more research :) Sébastien 54684 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 0:33pm Subject: Alayavijnana Store Consciousness jwromeijn Hallo all, In the discussions on the difficult to explain term "accumulations" I remembered an article of the (Srilankan monk) Walpola Rahula Found it back; but I don't understand it. Anybody? Metta Joop Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness Ven. Dr. Walpola Rahula In the Yogacara (Vijnanavada) School of Buddhism, alayavijnana is one of the most important doctrines developed by Asanga (fourth century A.C.). He divides the vijnanaskandha (Aggregate of Conciousness) the fifth of the five skandhas, into three different aspects or layers, namely, citta, manas and vijnana. In the Theravada Tipitaka as well as in the Pali Commentaries, these three terms - citta, manas, vijnana - are considered as synonyms denoting the same thing. The Sarvistivada also takes them as synonyms. Even the Lankavatarasutra, which is purely a Mahayana text, calls them synonyms although their separate functions are mentioned elsewhere in the same sutra. Vasubandhu, too, in his Vimsatikavijnapti-matratasiddhi considers them as synonyms. Since any one of these three terms - citta, manas, vijnanas - represents some aspect, even though not all aspects, of the fifth Aggregate vijnanaskandha, they may roughly be considered as synonyms. However, for Asanga, citta, manas and vijnana are three different and distinct aspects of the vyjnanaskandha. He defines this Aggregate as follows: 'What is the definition of the Aggregate of Consciousness (vijnanaskandha)? It is mind (citta), mental organ (manas) and also consciousness (vijnana). "And there what is mind (citta)? It is alayavijnana (Store- Consciousness) containing all seeds (sarvabijaka), impregnated with the traces (impressions) (vasanaparibhavita) of Aggregates (skandha), Elements (dhatu) and Spheres (ayatana) ... 'What is mental organ (manas)? It is the object of alayavijnana always having the nature of self-notion (self-conceit) (manyanatmaka) associated with four defilements, viz. the false idea of self (atmadrsti), self-love (atmasneha), the conceit of 'I am' (asmimana) and ignorance (avidya) ... 'What is consciousness (vijnana)? It consists of the six groups of consciousness (sad vijnanakayah), viz. visual consciousness (caksurvijnana), auditory (srotra), olfactory (ghrana), gustatory (jihva), tactile (kaya), and mental consciousness (manovijnana) ... Thus we can see that vijnana represents the simple reaction or response of the sense-organs when they come in contact with external objects. This is the uppermost or superficial aspect or layer of the vijnanaskandha. Manas represents the aspect of its mental functioning, thinking, reasoning, conceiving ideas, etc. Citta, which is here called alayavijnana, represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of Consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future potentialities. The Sandhinirmocana-sutra also says that alayavijnana is called citta (Tibetan sems). It is generally believed that alayavijnana is purely a Mahayana doctrine and that nothing about it is found in Hinayana. But in the Mahayanasangraha, Asanga himself says that in the Sravakayana (= Hinayana) it is mentioned by synonyms (paryaya) and refers to a passage in the Ekottaragama which reads: 'People (praja) like the alaya (alayarata), are fond of the alaya (alayarama), are delighted in the alaya (alayasammudita), are attached to the alaya (alayabhirata). When the Dharma is preached for the destruction of the alaya, they wish to listen (susrusanti) and lend their ears (srotram avadadhanti), they put forth a will for the perfect knowledge (ajnacittam upasthapayanti) and follow the path of Truth (dharmanudharma-pratipanna). When the Tathagata appears in the world (pradurbhava), this marvellous (ascarya) and extraordinary (adbhuta) Dharma appears in the world.' Lamotte identifies this Ekottaragama passage with the following passage in the Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati. Besides this Anguttara passage, the term alaya in the same sense is found in several other places of the Pali Canon. The Pali Commentaries explain this term as 'attachment to the five sense- pleasures", and do not go deeper than that. But this also is an aspect of the alayavijnana. In the Lankavatarasutra the term tathagatagarbha is used as a synonym for alayavijnana and is described as 'luminous by nature' (prakrtiprabhasvara) and 'pure by nature' (prakrtiparisuddha) but appearing as impure 'because it is sullied by adventitious defilements' (agantuklesopaklistataya). In the Anguttaranikaya, citta is described as 'luminous' (pabhassara), but it is 'sullied by adventitious minor defilements' (agantukehi upakkilesehi upakkilittham). One may notice here that alaya-vijnana (or tathagatgarbha) and citta are described almost by the same terms. We have seen earlier that the Sandhi-nirmocana-sutra says that alayavijnana is also called citta. Asanga too mentions that it is named citta. It is this alayavijnana or citta that is considered by men as their "Soul', 'Self', 'Ego' or 'Atman'. It should be remembered as a concrete example, that Sati, one of the Buddha's disciples, took vinnan (vijnana) in this sense and that the Buddha reprimanded him for this wrong view. The attainment of Nirvana is achieved by 'the revolution of alayavijnana' which is called asrayaparavrtti. The same idea is conveyed by the expression alayasamugghata - 'uprooting of alaya' - which is used in the Pali Canon as a synonym for Nirvana. Here it should be remembered, too, that analaya, 'no-alaya', is another synonym for Nirvana. The alayavijnanaparavrtti is sometimes called bijaparavrtti - 'revolution of the seeds' - as well. Bija here signifies the 'seeds' of defilements (samklesikadharmabija) which cause the continuity of samsara. By the 'revolution of these seeds' one attains Nirvana. Again the Pali term khinabija, which is used to denote an arahant whose seeds of defilements are destroyed', expresses the same idea. Thus one may see that, although not developed as in the Mahayana, the original idea of alayavijnana was already there in the Pali Canon of the Theravada 54685 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) jonoabb Hi Larry I think there is some variation in the way 'experience' is being used in this thread. When we say in ordinary speech that we are experiencing like or dislike, we may be referring just t the fact that, in dhamma terms, like or dislike is arising at that time. Whereas when discussing dhammas on a detailed level, the term 'experience' is used in reference to citta and its object; so in that sense when like or dislike arises with consciousness it is part of the *experiencing* rather than a more general *experience* (or what is being experienced). Hoping this helps clarify. Jon Larry wrote: >Hi Mike, > >I haven't read this anywhere, but it makes sense to me that the object of a mind-door >process is always a consciousness, and two consciousnesses can't arise at the same time. >That would be tantamount to two experiences at the same time. A javana citta and eye- >consciousness can't arise at the same time. Granted, every consciousness arises with a >host of cetasikas but I don't think two cetasikas can be experienced at the same time. This >creates the problem of what is experienced. Nina seems to solve this problem by saying >the object is the experience. To me, this is problematic. How is "like" the experience of >visible object? Certainly I like this visible object, but "like" is one thing and "visible object" >is another. If we say "like" is an experience of "visible object" we mix them together. I >would rather say "like" is a conditioned response to "visible object". By "like" I mean lobha >mula citta or alobha mula citta "characterized" by piti. > >Larry > 54686 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 jonoabb Hi Phil and all Phil wrote: > Hi Scott and Mike and all > > > >>To "reify" citta is to start thinking of citta as being a tiny moment >> >> >>of being that is "a being", of having all the attributes of self one >> >> >>is striving not to see in "ourselves." >> >> > > This is something Howard has written about in the past, as though >citta is seen as a "little agent" - or something like that. It stuck >with me, and I can see what you mean. It's good to be reminded not >to think of citta in those terms, not to reify citta. > I agree with your comments, but if this is what's meant by 'reify' then it seems to be an aspect of self-view, and nothing more than that. >In one of the >recorded talks, A. Sujin talks about "dark citta" or something, >really gets at the essence of what citta is, experiencing, bare >experiencing, and nothing else. I don't seem to be coming across >that talk again, but if I do I will try to transcribe it here. It >was helpful, momentarily - but now what I heard is all gone! :) > > ;-)). (I remember some reference to there being darkness whenever there is no visible object being experienced.) > Phil > > p.s similes that are used to explain citta and cetasikas can >contribute to the reification you're talking about - literally. I >think I have citta described as king, and the seven universal >cetasikas as various members of his retinue. Of course these similes >are to help us get a basic conceptual understanding, and they will >be shed as understanding deepens ever so gradually. > > Well said! Whatever form of expression is used, it will inevitably be susceptible to a 'self' construction in some manner or other. In my view, no amount of care over choice of wording can cure inherent wrong view. Jon PS Sorry to hear you won't be joining us in Bangkok this time. Hope you can make it on another occasion. 54687 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:03pm Subject: Re: kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year htootintnaing Dear Christine, The Buddha did pass vinaya rule that needs to avoid killing. Eating food is not killing obviously. Devadatta requested vinaya that prohibit eating meat and other 9 rules. The Buddha denied all 10 new rules suggested by Devadatta. Because of this Devadatta boldly declared that he was another Buddha and he did pass all those as vinaya rules and invited monks who would follow him. 1000 monks followed him. On that same day, The Buddha saw that there were riped monks that would see nibbana and sent Saariputta to Devadatta's monastery. There venerable Devadatta was preaching. Saariputta was warmly welcome by Devadatta. 'O! Son, Saariputta. Come on in. Welcome to Devadatta's monastery. Are you joining sangha?' After a few minutes Devadatta became tired and asked Saariputta to continue his (Devadatta's) preaching. This again is imitation to The Buddha Gotama, who frequently delegated Saariputta to continue preaching while monastery based teachings in the evening were done. Saariputta preached and 500 monks became sotapanna and they came back along with Saariputta. No one bother the issue of meat-eating. There are at least 227 bhikkhu rules and none of them is 'avoidance of meat-eating'. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > > Hello Htoo, Scott, all, > > Thank you for your posts. I don't believe the Buddha instructed that we must eat meat, or encouraged us to kill and eat animals. If he did, I would be interested in any such sutta. > > His instructions to monks were more to discourage those who may have been likely to pick and choose what was put in their bowls by lay people, or at whose house they would prefer to accept invitations to meals. I think they were not supposed to differentiate between food or people on the basis of personal preference. > > If the donation of food included some of the cooked meat that the family had eaten, they were not to reject it. They were not to regard the donated food as anything other than enough fuel to keep the body going. Ajahn Brams tells of a practice where everything put into a monk's bowl should be mixed together - the sweet, sour, hot and cold - and not even looking to see what was donated. > > metta > Chris > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54688 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 htootintnaing Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your approval to use your dhamma post. I will acknowledge when I do it there in respective group. Thanks, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > I am glad to share Dhamma with others. Please do copy any part you like. > Nina > op 14-01-2006 14:32 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > >> Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 > >> > >> Everything is dhamma. We know this by intellectual understanding, > > but, later > >> on, it can be known more deeply by direct understanding. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > Dear Nina, > > > > Can I copy and paste this post to other groups? > 54689 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 626 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Ignorance or avijjaa covers right dhamma. Because of hiding by avijjaa or ignorance beings cannot see right dhamma. Because of not seeing right dhamma beings are committing kamma almost all the time. Avijjaa is a form of moha. But when we look at jhaanalaabhii or when we look at those who attain jhaana we will think that they are free of moha. This is true when they are in jhaana they are free of moha. It is not possible for moha to take a place in the heart of those jhaana- laabhii when they are in jhaana. But if they are not ariyaa or saints or those who are free of moha in all form we can say that those jhaanalaabhii are not free from avijjaa even though they may be free from moha. Examples are Deviimala hermit who was the teacher of Suddhodana King, who was the father of Siddhattha Gotama, Alaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta who were the two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama were all not arahats. To the worst they all were puthujana and they were not free of avijjaa, which is a form of moha. Because of such very subtle form of moha they did practise their jhaana and now they were all in the realms where there is not any of ruupa or form that can condition seeing or hearing. In those realms when beings are born as puthujana they have no chance at all to become ariya in that very life. So they will be missing Sammaasambuddhas while they are in those realms. This happens because avijjaa covers right things. Because of avijjaa they did 'aane`njaabhisa`nkhaara' and they were all reborn in those realms and they lose the chance of hearing Sammaasambuddha's Dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54690 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:34pm Subject: Vism.XIV,221 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 221. Also they are (respectively) like the prison, the punishment, the offence, the punisher, and the offender. And they are like the dish, the food,the curry sauce [poured over the food], the server, and the eater.83 This is how the exposition should be known as to simile. -------------------------------- Note 83. 'The matter of the body is like the 'prison' because it is the site of the punishment. 'Perception is like the offence' because owing to perception of beauty, etc., it is a cause of the 'punishment', which is 'feeling'. The 'formations aggregate' is like the 'punisher' because it is a cause of feeling. 'Consciousness' is like the 'offender' because it is afflicted by feeling. Again, 'matter' is like the 'dish' because it bears the food. 'Perception' is like the 'curry sauce' because, owing to perception of beauty, etc., it hides the 'food', which is 'feeling'. The 'formations aggregate' is like the 'server' because it is a cause of 'feeling'; and service is included since one who is taking a meal is usually served. 'Consciousness' is like the 'eater' because it is helped by feeling' (Pm.504). For caaraka (prison) see Ch.XVI,18. ************************* 221. apica caaraka kaara.na aparaadha kaara.nakaaraka aparaadhikupamaa ete bhaajana bhojana bya~njana parivesaka bhu~njakuupamaa caati eva.m upamaato vinicchayanayo vi~n~naatabbo. 54691 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry" To: Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) > Hi Mike, > > I haven't read this anywhere, but it makes sense to me that the object of > a mind-door > process is always a consciousness, and two consciousnesses can't arise at > the same time. > That would be tantamount to two experiences at the same time. It seems to me that the object can be consciousness or any other naama, or a ruupa or even a concept. I've read here before that an immediately fallen-away object can still be taken by the present consciousness (so pa~n~naa e.g. can experience and understand an akusala citta) and this makes sense to me. > A javana citta and eye- > consciousness can't arise at the same time. In an eye door process, aren't the javana cittas cakkhu vi~n~naa.na? If not, I've misunderstood this. > Granted, every consciousness arises with a > host of cetasikas but I don't think two cetasikas can be experienced at > the same time. I think they all (all the universals and whatever else) do arise and subside simultaneously with the citta. Of course I've got this from reading but it does make sense and 'click' for me. > This > creates the problem of what is experienced. Nina seems to solve this > problem by saying > the object is the experience. Not sure about this-- > To me, this is problematic. How is "like" the experience of > visible object? Certainly I like this visible object, but "like" is one > thing and "visible object" > is another. Agreed, they are two different things, but the consciousness that experiences the object (which I take to be present simultaneously with the consciousness) arises simultaneously with the liking (lobha) or whatever. > If we say "like" is an experience of "visible object" we mix them > together. Yes, that's right I think--they are mixed together. The consciousness is determined (as good or bad etc.) by the 'liking' or whatever and the other factors that arise with it. They are, I think, mixed together, or rather I'd say that they arise and subside together. > I > would rather say "like" is a conditioned response to "visible object". I would agree with that. 'Liking' is surely conditioned and could I think be called a response--though personally I'd hesitate to introduce the term because it's too suggestive to me of behavioral psychology. > By "like" I mean lobha > mula citta or alobha mula citta "characterized" by piti. As I understand it, piiti can arise with or without lobha. It can (according to the texts) be kusala akusala vipaaka or kiriya. Of course lobha always arises with pleasant feeling but not necessarily with piiti. As above I have read this but I mainly retain what rings true and makes the most sense to me--for what THAT's worth. Nice chatting with you Larry. mike 54692 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Hi Mike, Jon, and Nina, Thanks for helping me sort out this business of citta knowing an object. I think you are all correct in ways I hadn't seen before but I haven't quite connected all the dots. One thing that is different is now I can see a difference between consciousness and root cetasika. This might give some insight into how ignorance and consciousness can work together. Here's an extra credit question: Feeling conditions the arising of thirst. What is the object of thirst: feeling or water? Larry 54693 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:36pm Subject: Ending Physical Pain ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Mental State in which one cannot Feel any Physical Pain? Where does all bodily pain cease, without a trace remaining ? When, secluded aloof from all sense-desire & isolated from any other detrimental state, one enters and remains in the first jhana absorption of directed thought and sustained reflection, joined with pleasure and joy, born of & in this solitary seclusion: It is right there, that all bodily pain ceases without a trace remaining... Therefore do beings reborn at the fine-material brahma level, never feel any physical pain, since they are continously absorped in this the first jhana concentration... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V 213-4 The Abilities section 48. Thread on The Irregular Order: Uppatika 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <.....> 54694 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:46pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 359- Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] In the suttas the cycle of birth and death has been compared to a dangerous ocean, which has to be crossed. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Fourth Fifty, Chapter 3, §187, Ocean): * “The ocean! The ocean!” monks, says the ignorant worldling. But that, monks, is not the ocean in the discipline of the ariyan. That ocean (of the worldling), monks, is a heap of water, a great flood of water. The eye of a man, monks, is the ocean. Its impulse is made of objects. Who so endures that object-made impulse,- of him, monks, it is said, “he has crossed over. That ocean of the eye, with its waves and whirlpools, its sharks and demons, the brahmin has crossed and gone beyond. He stands on dry ground”...." * When there is no more clinging to the eye and objects, or to all the other realities, one has “crossed over”. Further on we read that the Buddha spoke the verse: * "Who so has crossed this monster-teeming sea, With its devils and fearsome waves impassable, “Versed in the lore”, “living the holy life”, “Gone to world’s end”, and “gone beyond” he is called." * The arahat has crossed the sea of the cycle of birth and death (saósåra), he has gone to the world’s end, he has “gone beyond”. The danger of being drowned is real. We are infatuated with visible object, sound, smell, and all the other objects which can be experienced through the six doors. Every time we like one of the sensuous objects we are in the flood of sensuous desire, we fail to see the danger of this flood, we are forgetful. Many times we are forgetful and we do not even want to be mindful. The Buddha reminded people that pleasant objects do not last and that we all have to suffer old age, sickness and death. If we listen to the Buddha’s words without developing understanding we cannot grasp their real meaning. If we develop right understanding of all realities which appear we will know more clearly when there is clinging to the objects we experience and we will come to see the danger of clinging. The floods are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment, at the same stages as the corresponding cankers. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54696 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Howard, Joop (& Nina), I think you've all been raising very good questions and points for consideration on latent tendencies and defilements, on whether they are considered realities and so on. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Accumulations are latent tendencies, > or potentialities, if I am following. The potential for sense desire > to arise is conditioned by sense desire having arisen in the past. > How is the past to be understood? Is it somehow present, albeit > latently, until whatever aspect of it is eradicated? How does > eradication function? ..... I think 'potentialities' is a good word for latent tendencies. Just to focus a little more on the sub-set of latent defilements only again for this post: In the Abhidhamma texts, the seven latent defilements (i.e of greed for sense objects, for existence, aversion, conceit, wrong view, doubt and ignorance) are listed as one of the groupings of unwholesome dhammas. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha gives the following (Ch7, categrories): "The latent defilements (anusaya) are what lie (senti) persisting (anu anu) in the mental continuum in the sense of not having been abandoned [by the path]; what is meant is that when they obtain an appropriate condition they arise. For the unabandoned defilements, which are capable of arising when the conditions are obtained, exist in the mental continuum as it were continuously (anu anu) sleeping (sayita), and in that state are called latent defilements. *But from an absolute view point they are future defilements*, and as past and present defilements have the same nature they are likewise termed [latent defilements], for no distinction in the nature of dhammas follows from a difference in time. If they are latent defilements in the sense of not having been abandoned, surely all unabandoned defilements must be latent defilements. We do not say that they are latent defilements by the mere fact of their not having been abandoned, rather defilements that have become strong in that they have not been abandoned are latent defilements. And becoming strong is not a quality common to other [defilements] but one specific to just greed for sense objects and so on. **But enough of argument**.” ..... *S: I thought the phrase *But from an absolute view point they are future defilements* is important. Scott, with regard to your last question above about eradication, perhaps it’s like crossing a busy road with the potential to get run over each time. Only when one stops crossing the road is there no more possibility of getting run over (at that spot anyway). In the same way, when the defilements are eradicated (in stages), the potential for such states to arise no longer exists. Similarly, for the arahant, all 'roots' of further existence have been removed, so no more 'potential' of any kind for further wholesome or unwholesome states to arise in that lifetime or for any states or dhammas at all to arise at the end of that lifetime. **But enough of argument**!! I thought Howard would appreciate these words in the commentary, not that anyone ever 'argues' here:-). Thanks again for helping me to reflect further on this topic. (Again, of course, lots and lots under ‘anusaya’ and ‘accumulations’ in U.P.) Metta, Sarah ========== 54697 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii) jonoabb Hi Larry LBIDD@... wrote: >Here's an extra credit question: Feeling conditions the arising of >thirst. What is the object of thirst: feeling or water? > > I'm not sure what you mean by 'feeling conditions thirst'. In fact, some would see it the other way around: thirst conditions unpleasant feeling. As I see it, 'thirst' is not a dhamma but is a conventional term used to describe a certain combination of experiences through the body-door. Anxious to score credit points but waiting for your further explanation, Jon 54698 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:32am Subject: RE: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) dacostacharles Hi Howard, I don't understand every thing you said but from what I get (i.e., "We *do* seem to remember "that old house" as a mental unit, and not just its components. Perhaps sa~n~na recollection aspect includes a "grouping mechanism" in addition to the recollection of individual dhammas. That is, it seems that one "sa~n~nic" operation is an elementary conceptualization operation, both at the marking and at the recollection stages.") I agree. The sense gates all work in parallel so a multi-dimensional entity is perceived via them as a single discrete entity, while "Focused Concentration/awareness" takes this "illusion of a single entity" apart uncovering its aggregates (different parts). Focused Concentration/awareness appears to operate sequentially and gives us the ability to identify the details of the objects we perceive, keeping in mind that all sensory objects are in-reality a complex (i.e., compounded entities). And if the Focused Concentration is not "pin pointed focused", the new detail/entity that is perceived will be a complex too. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Sunday, 15 January, 2006 17:35 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) Hi, Nina - The following is very good! I do have a question or two. It seems that what is called sa~n~na is not one operation, but at least two related ones, and that we simply speak of that aggregate of related operations using a single name. One operation, called "marking" seems to be a special noting (of an arammana, or possibly of several if not all the elements of a mindstate). It seems that the "marking" operation might well even apply to more than single mindstates, inasmuch as we recognize conventional objects like trees, houses, people etc, and not just paramattha dhammas. Of course, that may not really be so. Perhaps many of the individual dhammas that arose and were "marked" during the original oserving of those conventional objects are simply now recollected, and our mind then goes through similar "summing up" processing to what it did originally. But somehow that doesn't seem to quite cut it. We *do* seem to remember "that old house" as a mental unit, and not just its components. Perhaps sa~n~na recollection aspect includes a "grouping mechanism" in addition to the recollection of individual dhammas. That is, it seems that one "sa~n~nic" operation is an elementrary conceptualization operation, both at the marking and at the recollection stages. (Just some thoughts, Nina). <....> 54699 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Htoo Naing, I think people are questioning whether DO is, as you said, "Some dhamma originate from yet another dhamma. There is dependence. So it is called Dependent Origination." Or is it just the 12-links in a chain of causation. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htootintnaing Sent: Saturday, 07 January, 2006 00:28 To: JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com; triplegem@yahoogroups.com; dhamma-list@yahoogroups.com; dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dependent Origination Dear Friends, D.O or Dependent Origination is about origination. It is about origination. Some dhamma originate from yet another dhamma. There is depencence. So it is called Dependent Origination. <...> 54700 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:42am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions dacostacharles Hi Tep and others, From what I can remember of the 6 perceptions you spoke of: 1. skeletal perception 2. worm-eaten perception 3. livid perception 4. festering perception 5. falling apart perception 6. bloated perception They are part of a meditation/chanting practice to help you become free from attachment to the physical body. Therefore, they are one of the prescriptions for one of the sicknesses, the Noble Right Effort cures. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 00:59 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions Hi, Howard and Charles D (also, Htoo and Jon) - It may appear that this thread came to a full stop with Howard's last words : >Howard: > Whoa! What is that, Charles? Omigod, I know! I vaguely remember it!! > Why, it's good common sense!!! ;-))) > But we may have overlooked Htoo's observation about the six perceptions that are called "the exertion to maintain". > > Htoo ( #54446) : Here are what I do not know. 1. skeletal perception 2. worm-eaten perception 3. livid perception 4. festering perception 5. falling aprt perception 6. bloated perception What is 'maintain' in connection with four right exertion? Tep: Can Charles' common sense answer Htoo's simple question above? {:<) <...> 54701 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana Store Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Joop & all, --- Joop wrote: > Hallo all, > > In the discussions on the difficult to explain term "accumulations" I > remembered an article of the (Srilankan monk) Walpola Rahula > Found it back; but I don't understand it. Anybody? .... S: Please see the following post I wrote in reply to RobM when he raised the same article a few years back: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15902 (Also, other messages under 'ayuhana' in U.P. may be relevant). I'm in a rush now, but you're most welcome to quote any parts of my earlier message (or any others) for further discussion. Metta, Sarah p.s I know I'm behind on many replies to you, Tep, Htoo, Howard & others....eventually I get round to them all:). Thanks meanwhile for all responses! ==================================== 54702 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away y... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Mike, Jon, and Nina) - In a message dated 1/16/06 1:17:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Here's an extra credit question: Feeling conditions the arising of > thirst. What is the object of thirst: feeling or water? > ===================== My opinion: The object of thirst is an unpleasant (i.e., unpleasantly felt) bodily sensation which leads immediately to desire for the cessation of that specific unpleasantness, and, further, due to past experiences, then leads to a complex train of intermixed thought and desire for drinking. But the primary answer as I see it is that the object of thirst is a specific unpleasant bodily sensation and the thirsting involved is actually the craving for the cessation of that sensation. Thirst is a mode of aversion, a sankharic operation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54703 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away y... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/16/06 2:58:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Larry > > LBIDD@... wrote: > > >Here's an extra credit question: Feeling conditions the arising of > >thirst. What is the object of thirst: feeling or water? > > > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by 'feeling conditions thirst'. In fact, > some would see it the other way around: thirst conditions unpleasant > feeling. > > As I see it, 'thirst' is not a dhamma but is a conventional term used to > describe a certain combination of experiences through the body-door. > > Anxious to score credit points but waiting for your further explanation, > Jon > ======================= If one understands thirst to be a particular category of tanha (craving for a specific cessation), one has phassa -> vedana -> tanha, and I suspect that it is what Larry has in mind by saying 'feeling conditions thirst'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54704 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 0:20am Subject: Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 1/16/06 6:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: > The sense gates all work in parallel so a multi-dimensional entity is > perceived via them as a single discrete entity, while "Focused > Concentration/awareness" takes this "illusion of a single entity" apart > uncovering its aggregates (different parts). ==================== In terms of how the mind uses sensory input in its conceptualization processing, I agree that speaking of the senses working in parallel makes sense. If you mean to imply, however, that there is simultaneous multi-sense-door operation, that is another issue. Buddhist psychology teaches otherwise. Whether one-sense-door-at-a-time is taught in the suttas, though, I'm not certain. Actually, I would like to know whether there are specific assertions to that effect in the suttas. Anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:59am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6 Saññå which remembers the Dhamma is different from saññå which arises when thinking of concepts. On account of what is seen we think with attachment about events, people and things and are quite taken in by our thoughts. However, gradually saññå can remember what we heard when listening to Dhamma. Saññå arises with intellecual understanding of the Dhamma, it remembers the terms and their meanings and when there is mindfulness saññå can also remember characterstics of realities. Saññå which remembers the Dhamma will be firmer so that it will become a proximate cause of satipatthåna. We read in the Expositor (I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 122) about mindfulness: ³... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (saññå) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.² I had read this text before but I had not yet considered all implications of saññå¹s role. Considering the function of saññå helps us to understand why listening to the Dhamma is most important. Saññå performs its function when we listen to the Dhamma or read Suttas. If we are not passive listeners but also understand what we hear or read, we shall not be forgetful. Saññå can become a firm foundation for the arising of direct awareness of the dhammas that appear. Another word for awareness is non-forgetfulness. We are often forgetful of nåma and rúpa, but since we have listened and considered the Dhamma there are conditions for remembrance of the Dhamma and this supports sati. It seems to us that dhammas last, at least for some time. We think of our body as a whole that exists because of saññå that remembers it. In reality there are rúpas arising and falling away all the time. When hardness appears it seems to last, but in reality it falls away immediately and never returns. We keep on remembering the hardness that has fallen away, but very gradually, when paññå has been developed, there can be remembrance of impermanence, aniccå saññå instead of remembrance of permanence, niccå saññå. The clinging to the concept of self is so deeply rooted, but when paññå has been developed to the stage of enlightenment of the sotåpanna, there will be anattå saññå instead of attå saññå. ***** Nina. 54706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma questions. nilovg Dear Scott, I forgot this point: Infinite space is a meditation subject of aruupajhaana, it is a concept. It does not have anything to do with the paricheda ruupa, the infinitely small space element that separates the groups of ruupa, so that these are distinct from each other and are hold together for a very short moment, before they fall away Nina. op 15-01-2006 19:15 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Thank you very much. I'll study this. 54707 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: Hi Htoo Naing, I think people are questioning whether DO is, as you said, "Some dhamma originate from yet another dhamma. There is dependence. So it is called Dependent Origination." Or is it just the 12-links in a chain of causation. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, It is pa.ticcasamuppaada. Pa.ticca means 'depending on'. 12 links is just for clear visualisation. Dhamma is more complex and complicated than as intelligent scholars would think. Example is that 'vinnaana and naama-ruupa'. When the Buddha contemplated on that part there He found there is interdependent. There is inner cycle in the whole cycle of D.O. What we need to do is cut up the cycle. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54708 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking . Citta and the object. nilovg Hi Larry, op 16-01-2006 07:15 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > One thing that is different is now I can > see a difference between consciousness and root cetasika. This might > give some insight into how ignorance and consciousness can work > together. ------ N: Akusala roots and sobhana roots are cetasikas arising with citta. Citta and conascent cetasikas experience the same object. -------- > L: Here's an extra credit question: Feeling conditions the arising of > thirst. What is the object of thirst: feeling or water? ------- N: Here you use a conventional situation, thirst, which is actually body-consciousness, vipaakacitta, experiencing undesirable ruupas which are tangible object. There is the rupa which is bodysense, as you know, arising and falling away all over the body, also in what we call throat or mouth or tongue. This is the doorway through which citta experiences the undesirable object. This citta, body-consciousness, is accompanied by painful bodily feeling, which is also vipaaka. This painful feeling can condition akusala citta rooted in ignorance and aversion in a following process. The undesirable object is disliked by citta rooted in aversion and ignorance. Also the painful feeling is disliked. Desire for the idea of water arises, and that is lobha-muulacitta. Saññaa remembers that water gives relief, that it is cool. Actually what we call water is experienced as tangible object, namely, solidity, temperature and motion or pressure. Cohesion is not experienced through the bodysense. So there are many cittas experiencing many objects and accompanied by different feelings. And that only on account of having thirst and longing for water. Nina. 54709 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles D. - Thank you for the useful suggestion. > Charles D. : > From what I can remember of the 6 perceptions you spoke of: > 1. skeletal perception > 2. worm-eaten perception > 3. livid perception > 4. festering perception > 5. falling apart perception > 6. bloated perception > They are part of a meditation/chanting practice to help you become >free from attachment to the physical body. >Therefore, they are one of the prescriptions for one of the >sicknesses, the Noble Right Effort cures. > Tep: Yes. We drill on the six perceptions above in order to replace subha-sanna with asubha-sanna. That requires a right effort - exertion - to get the job done. Warm regards, Tep ========= 54710 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 627 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Just attainment is ruupa jhaana is not that right. Because there are many things to be accomplished. This ruupa jhaana may or may not help the possessers in terms of achievement in higher knowledge. As I wrote in the previous posts there obviously were people who did attained ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana while they did not attain any of higher knowledge that would see anicca, dukkha, anatta. The hermit Deviimala, those two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddattha Gotama were all who attained jhaana. But they were not the teachers who would be able to teach anatta. When Bodhisatta approached teachers one after another He attained what the teachers attained within a short period. More importantly He realised that attainment of such higher jhaana of aruupa was not the answer to 'freeing of suffering of ageing-disease-death'. Here Bodhisatta did know there was something hiding there while teachers did not realised that there was hiding answer just behind their jhaana. While Bodhisatta continued to search for the answer two of these two teachers ended up their living and they were reborn in aruupa brahma realm or plane of existence wheere there is no material phenomena. This is evidenced when The Buddha looked at where these two teachers were and He found that they both died and were reborn in their respective realm of non-material planes. They had to be reborn in those realms because they did (sa`nkhaara). This committing was because of ignorance. This ignorance is avijjaa. When they had aruupa jhaana they did not have any moha in their mind as akusala dhamma. They were very highly pure when they are compared with us or any of kaama beings in all 6 deva realms, human realm, and 4 lower realms of woeful planes of existence. Avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaara. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54711 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions nilovg Hi Tep, You are so interested in the four right efforts, and I thought of you when helping with a translation on the Pali list. op 16-01-2006 15:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep: Yes. We drill on the six perceptions above in order to replace > subha-sanna with asubha-sanna. That requires a right effort - exertion - > to get the job done. ------- N: Dutiya Vagga > second / part > The Second Part > > 1. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekadhammampi samanupassaami yena > anuppannaa vaa akusalaa dhammaa uppajjanti uppannaa vaa akusalaa > dhammaa bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya sa.mvattanti yathayida.m, > bhikkhave, micchaadi.t.thi. It is Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones, (I, 28) Ch XVII. The seed. About wrong view and right view. The last one causes the arising of akusala dhammas not yet arisen, etc. The same formula as for the four right efforts. I wrote a remark : It impresses me that the same expression is used as in the case of the four right efforts. This shows the power of the development of right understanding of dhammas that appear. At the same time there are then conditions for the four right efforts. Nina. 54712 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:40am Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for the kind thought and the Pali of the Gradual Sayings: >Nina's quote: > > 1. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekadhammampi >samanupassaami yena anuppannaa vaa akusalaa dhammaa >uppajjanti uppannaa vaa akusalaa dhammaa bhiyyobhaavaaya >vepullaaya sa.mvattanti yathayida.m, bhikkhave, micchaadi.t.thi. Tep: Could you also give your translation for me, please? Thanks. ........................ >N: > I wrote a remark : It impresses me that the same expression > is used as in the case of the four right efforts. This shows the >power of the development of right understanding of dhammas > that appear. At the same time there are then conditions for the four >right efforts. Tep: That's an interesting remark but I am not totally clear. I can see the conditions for the right efforts (i.e. chandham janeti vayamati viriyam arabhati cittam pagganhati padahati -- DN 22), But I do not follow " This shows the power of the development of right understanding of dhammas that appear. " . Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > You are so interested in the four right efforts, and I thought of you when > helping with a translation on the Pali list. > op 16-01-2006 15:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Tep: Yes. We drill on the six perceptions above in order to replace > > subha-sanna with asubha-sanna. That requires a right effort - exertion - > > to get the job done. > ------- > N: Dutiya Vagga > > second / part > > The Second Part > > (snipped) > It is Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones, (I, 28) Ch XVII. The seed. > About wrong view and right view. The last one causes the arising of akusala > dhammas not yet arisen, etc. The same formula as for the four right efforts. > (snipped) > Nina. > 54713 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:16am Subject: Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway nilovg Hi Howard, Kindred Sayings IV, 198 (The six animals): All the time the Buddha speaks about the objects experienced through the six doors, but one at a time. Only one citta experiences one object through one of the six doors. Nina. op 16-01-2006 14:20 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Whether one-sense-door-at-a-time is taught in the suttas, though, I'm not > certain. > Actually, I would like to know whether there are specific assertions to that > effect in the suttas 54714 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry, Thanks again for a good discussion, a little more below: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) > ...One thing that is different is now I can > see a difference between consciousness and root cetasika. This might > give some insight into how ignorance and consciousness can work > together. Does it make sense to say that any moha-muula-citta is a moment of ignorant (or deluded) consciousness? > Here's an extra credit question: Feeling conditions the arising of > thirst. What is the object of thirst: feeling or water? Defining 'thirst' would be a good place to start. It seems to me to be a big series of cittas with their attendant cetasikas (all including feeling as a universal) and of course simultaneous and intermittent ruupas...since thirst (in the conventional sense) is characterised by an unpleasant feeling (domanassa-sahagata?) then it can't be attachment and must I think be aversion to the unpleasant sensation of a dry mouth. Since (conventional) thirst per se isn't a dhamma, I'm not sure it can be said to be conditioned or to have an object. The aversion to the unpleasant condition though must be conditioned but by so many accumulated and present conditions I'd hardly know where to begin. Natthi-paccaya comes to mind and of course all the universals, kaya-vi~n~naa.na...It's an interesting question but really over my head I think. mike 54715 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions nilovg Hi Tep, op 16-01-2006 17:40 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Nina's quote: >>> 1. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekadhammampi >> samanupassaami yena anuppannaa vaa akusalaa dhammaa >> uppajjanti uppannaa vaa akusalaa dhammaa bhiyyobhaavaaya >> vepullaaya sa.mvattanti yathayida.m, bhikkhave, micchaadi.t.thi. > > Tep: Could you also give your translation for me, please? Thanks. > ........................ N: The sutta first states about wrong view that it leads to the arising of akusala dhammas, not yet arisen, or if arisen, to cause their increase, the non-arising of kusala dhammas not yet arisen, or if arisen to cause their waning. The opposite for right view. And this is the same as said for the four right eforts: that it leads to the arising of kusala dhammas, not yet arisen, or if arisen, to cause their increase, the non-arising of akusala dhammas not yet arisen, or if arisen to overcome them. For the mahaapadhaanas, the last two are mentioned first. Nina. 54716 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/06 2:26:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Kindred Sayings IV, 198 (The six animals): object with the eye, is attached...hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a > scent with the nose...etc.> > All the time the Buddha speaks about the objects experienced through the six > doors, but one at a time. Only one citta experiences one object through one > of the six doors. > Nina ======================= Thank you, Nina. Yes, of course I'm aware of that. When speaking about sense-door experiences, that's generally how even non-Buddhists today speak. But such speech still leaves untouched the technical question of whether parallel sense-door processing occurs. I, in fact, believe that such parallel processing probably does not occur - not that this would matter to me one way or the other as regards the realization of the tilakkhana and the attainment of spiritual freedom, but my question is whether the issue is ever explicity discussed in any sutta. I suspect not. I suspect that it is one of those many leaves in the forest that the Buddha didn't think worthy of taking into his hands. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54717 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:56am Subject: RE: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) --purpose of Sut&Abd dacostacharles Hi Howard The sutras and Abidharma serve different functions. Generally specking, the Abidharma is theory about the nature of reality (my old teachers would have said Mind -- they were from the Mind-only-school), and the sutras are prescriptions for suffering. Some believe that the Abidharma tries to explain how and why the prescriptions (sutras) work. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi, Charles - > The sense gates all work in parallel so a multi-dimensional entity is > perceived via them as a single discrete entity, while "Focused > Concentration/awareness" takes this "illusion of a single entity" apart > uncovering its aggregates (different parts). ==================== In terms of how the mind uses sensory input in its conceptualization processing, I agree that speaking of the senses working in parallel makes sense. If you mean to imply, however, that there is simultaneous multi-sense-door operation, that is another issue. Buddhist psychology teaches otherwise. Whether one-sense-door-at-a-time is taught in the suttas, though, I'm not certain. Actually, I would like to know whether there are specific assertions to that effect in the suttas. Anyone? With metta, Howard 54718 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 0:04pm Subject: RE: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) dacostacharles Hi Howard In terms of the Sutras, I can't remember and have always preferred the latest research. Plus, see the other related thread The Mind door acts as the multi-sensory input gate. This is where focus (i.e., conscious awareness) takes effect. It presents a six-dimensional "movie," a dimension for each of the senses. This is what allows for perception, feelings, and intellect to act based on a single sensory input or multiple sensory inputs (i.e., perceived as one input). The other senses gates actually open the door to the mind via the mind gate; else, consciousness, etc... could not be aware of the object. I know what I am saying contradicts some of the accepted interpretations of what both sutras and Abidharma teaches. But think about it. I am saying that eye-perception and eye-consciousness exist behind the mind-gate, not before it, i.e., in the eye. The eye does, however, transmit signals to the mind, via the mind gate, that is interpreted by eye-consciousness. However, this eye-consciousness is at a sub-awareness level at first, i.e., until "focused-awareness" (perception/recognition) makes contact to it. By focused-awareness, I mean the actual thing that makes the Abidharmists claim wholes true (i.e., one-thing at a time for a billionth of a second). This is why you can see something today and remember it well, then with guidance (e.g., hypnosis or deep concentration) uncover the fact that you actually had seen more then you remembered before. Those objects that you missed were never brought into focused-awareness (i.e., they got skipped over but they are still in the mind). I don't want to put too much in this post so I will explain better/further in the next post if you wish. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi, Charles - > The sense gates all work in parallel so a multi-dimensional entity is > perceived via them as a single discrete entity, while "Focused > Concentration/awareness" takes this "illusion of a single entity" apart > uncovering its aggregates (different parts). ==================== In terms of how the mind uses sensory input in its conceptualization processing, I agree that speaking of the senses working in parallel makes sense. If you mean to imply, however, that there is simultaneous multi-sense-door operation, that is another issue. Buddhist psychology teaches otherwise. Whether one-sense-door-at-a-time is taught in the suttas, though, I'm not certain. Actually, I would like to know whether there are specific assertions to that effect in the suttas. Anyone? Howard 54719 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 0:14pm Subject: Emptiness dacostacharles Hi all, All is empty of "something" that is worth clinging to, uncompounded, everlasting, and completely controllable. This is the Mahayana and Theravadan view know as Emptiness. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop Sent: Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 11:18 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada Hallo Sebastien ... Second, back to your question about the relation Nagarjuna - Theravada Many Mahayanists (and especially Tibetan Buddhist) claim that Nagarjuna was a (or: the first) Mahayanist. But I think the scholar David Kalupahana has good arguments in his statement that Nagarjuna followed for hundred procent the Teachings of the Buddha, as formulated in the Suttas. In the Introduction to his translation of the Mulamadhyamakakarika Kalupahana explains that this work of Nagarjuna is in fact one big comment on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya XII: 15. See "The philosopy of the Middle Way", 1986. Metta Joop 54720 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:19pm Subject: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon, Sarah, Sukinder, Nina (KenH, James and others) - We had several discussions (arguments or debates?) in the past on noble disciple, sikkha (training), method of practice(patipada), jhana, and satipatthana. Hopefully, this post may help us reach a few conclusions --- or tie up a few loosed ends, so to speak. The Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains that 'ariya' or 'ariya puggala' means 'noble person': i.e. one who has attained the path(magga) or fruition(phala) of the stream-winning, once-return, non-return, or the arahant. Nyanatiloka also states that 'ariya-savaka' in "a restricted sense" refers only to the 8 kinds of 'noble disciples'. However, MN 125 gives a different definition for 'ariyan disciple' (or noble disciple) as follows. A Different Definition of 'Noble Disciple' --------------------------------------------------------- "A householder or a householder's son or one born in another family hears that dhamma. Having heard that dhamma he gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with this faith that he has acquired, he reflects in this way: 'The household life is confined and dusty, going forth is in the open; it is not easy for one who lives in a house to fare the Brahma- faring wholly fulfilled, wholly pure, polished like a conch-shell. Suppose now that I, having cut off hair and beard, having put on saffron robes, should go forth from home into homelessness?' After a time, getting rid of his wealth, be it small or great, getting rid of his circle of relations, be it small or great, having cut off his hair and beard, having put on saffron robes, he goes forth from home into homelessness. To this extent, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple gets out into the open." Training in Steps ------------------------ Tep: MN 125 is one of the suttas that state very clearly (no interpretations are necessary) about the way the Buddha taught the monks to train themselves in the step by step fashion. [Sequential, not 'all together' or 'in any order'] Step1. "But, Aggivessana, devas and mankind have this longing, that is to say, for the five strands of sense-pleasures. The Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be moral, live controlled by the control of the Obligations, possessed of [right] behavior and posture, seeing danger in the slightest faults; undertaking them, train yourself in the rules of training.' Step2. "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is moral, lives controlled by the control..., undertaking them, trains himself in the rules of training, then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be guarded as to the doors of the sense-organs. Having seen a material shape with the eye...(as above). Having cognized a mental state with the mind, be not entranced by the general appearance, be not entranced by the detail. For if you dwell with the organ of mind uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil unskillful states of mind, might flow in. So fare along with its control, guard the organ of mind, achieve control over the organ of the mind.' Step3. "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is guarded as to the doors of the sense-organs, then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be moderate in eating...(as above)... abiding in comfort.' Step4. "When, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is moderate in eating, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, abide intent on vigilance...(as above)... you should cleanse the mind of obstructive mental states. Step5. "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is intent on vigilance, then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness. Be one who acts with clear consciousness...(as above)... talking, silent.' First Jhana and Satipatthana ------------------------------------------ Tep: MN 125 makes it clear that the noble disciple who has successfully trained himself to Step5 will attain the first jhana in the next step. This step is clearly the "formal" meditation practice!! Step6: "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a wilderness, in a hill- cave, a cemetery, a forest haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He chooses a remote lodging in the forest... or on a heap of straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the meal, he sits down cross- legged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him, he, by getting rid of coveting for the world, dwells with a mind devoid of coveting, he purifies the mind of coveting. By getting rid of the taint of ill-will, he dwells benevolent in mind, compassionate for the welfare of all creatures and beings, he purifies the mind of the taint of ill-will. By getting rid of sloth and torpor, he dwells devoid of sloth and torpor; perceiving the light, mindful, clearly conscious, he purifies the mind of sloth and torpor. By getting rid of restlessness and worry, he dwells calmly the mind subjectively tranquilized, he purifies the mind of restlessness and worry. By getting rid of doubt, he dwells doubt- crossed, unperplexed as to the states that are skillful, he purifies the mind of doubt.' "He, by getting rid of these five hindrances which are defilements of the mind and weakening to intuitive wisdom, dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious [of it], mindful [of it] so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the world. He fares along contemplating the feelings... the mind... the mental states in mental states, ardent, clearly conscious [of them], mindful [of them] so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the world. Tep: It is easy to see why "the monk" at this stage of training has already attained the 1st jhana -- because he has got rid of the five hindrances. The solid proof that the noble disciple has attained the 1st jhana is shown in the next step in which the 2nd jhana through 4th jhana are the explicit results ! Step7: "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with mental states.' "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. By the fading out of rapture, he dwells with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and experiences in his person that joy of which the ariyans say: 'Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful,' and he enters and abides in the third meditation. By getting rid of joy, by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of his former pleasures and sorrows, he enters and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy, and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness. Tep: So it is crystally clear how the four jhanas(samma-samadhi) are built upon samma-sati. What is your thought? Warm regards, Tep ======= 54721 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don't run away y... jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Larry) - > >In a message dated 1/16/06 2:58:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jonabbott@... writes: > > > >>Hi Larry >>... >> >> >>I'm not sure what you mean by 'feeling conditions thirst'. In fact, >>some would see it the other way around: thirst conditions unpleasant >>feeling. >> >>As I see it, 'thirst' is not a dhamma but is a conventional term used to >>describe a certain combination of experiences through the body-door. >> >>Anxious to score credit points but waiting for your further explanation, >>Jon >> >> > >======================= > If one understands thirst to be a particular category of tanha >(craving for a specific cessation), one has phassa -> vedana -> tanha, and I suspect >that it is what Larry has in mind by saying 'feeling conditions thirst'. > > Oh, *that* thirst. Yes, I'm sure you're right. Just waiting for Larry to confirm (he's keeping us all in suspense!). Thanks, Howard. Jon 54722 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/16/2006 2:12:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: Hi all, All is empty of "something" that is worth clinging to, uncompounded, everlasting, and completely controllable. This is the Mahayana and Theravadan view know as Emptiness. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta Hi Charles And unqualifiedly empty of Self. BTW, I enjoyed reading your model of sense-doors/mind doors, etc. Also...who ever is knocking on the door loudest (with most urgency) gets in. TG 54723 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for the prompt reply. > > Tep: Could you also give your translation for me, please? Thanks. > > ........................ > N: The sutta first states about wrong view that it leads to the arising of > akusala dhammas, not yet arisen, or if arisen, to cause their increase, the > non-arising of kusala dhammas not yet arisen, or if arisen to cause their > waning. > The opposite for right view. And this is the same as said for the four right > eforts: that it leads to the arising of kusala dhammas, not yet arisen, or > if arisen, to cause their increase, the non-arising of akusala dhammas not > yet arisen, or if arisen to overcome them. > For the mahaapadhaanas, the last two are mentioned first. > Tep: I very much appreciate the above explanation, Nina. :-) Respectfully, Tep ========== 54724 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/16/2006 1:26:32 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/06 2:26:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Kindred Sayings IV, 198 (The six animals): object with the eye, is attached...hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a > scent with the nose...etc.> > All the time the Buddha speaks about the objects experienced through the six > doors, but one at a time. Only one citta experiences one object through one > of the six doors. > Nina ======================= Thank you, Nina. Yes, of course I'm aware of that. When speaking about sense-door experiences, that's generally how even non-Buddhists today speak. But such speech still leaves untouched the technical question of whether parallel sense-door processing occurs. I, in fact, believe that such parallel processing probably does not occur - not that this would matter to me one way or the other as regards the realization of the tilakkhana and the attainment of spiritual freedom, but my question is whether the issue is ever explicity discussed in any sutta. I suspect not. I suspect that it is one of those many leaves in the forest that the Buddha didn't think worthy of taking into his hands. With metta, Howard Hi Nina and Howard Nina, the quote you cited above does not use the term "door." Does the Pali use the term "door"? If not, I find it interesting that you use the above quote to make the claim that -- "All the time the Buddha speaks about the objects experienced through the six > doors," TG 54725 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:01am Subject: Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) --pur... upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - It happens that no particular ideas or responses occur to me with regard to your last two posts to me on this thread. I'm writing just to let you know that I've definitely read them over and will think further about the content. (Please don't think I'm ignoring you. I'm not! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54726 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:21pm Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] htootintnaing Dear Tep, May I copy your post and put it in other lists? With regards, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Jon, Sarah, Sukinder, Nina (KenH, James and others) - > > We had several discussions (arguments or debates?) in the past on > noble disciple, sikkha (training), method of practice(patipada), jhana, > and satipatthana. Hopefully, this post may help us reach a few > conclusions --- or tie up a few loosed ends, so to speak. > > The Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains that 'ariya' or > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ======= > 54727 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/16/2006 2:12:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: Hi all, All is empty of "something" that is worth clinging to, uncompounded, everlasting, and completely controllable. This is the Mahayana and Theravadan view know as Emptiness. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta Hi Charles I thought I sent a remark about this post but it didn't post so one more time. Sorry if its a repeat.... All is unqualifiedly empty of self too. Also, read your remarks about sense/mind door operations and liked them. I would just add that the door that gets opened is the one that gets "knocked on" loudest. I.E. the most significant concern/impression at that time. TG 54728 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:38pm Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - >Htoo: > May I copy your post and put it in other lists? Please do! Anytime too!! With appreciations, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > May I copy your post and put it in other lists? > > With regards, > > Htoo Naing > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Jon, Sarah, Sukinder, Nina (KenH, James and others) - > > > > We had several discussions (arguments or debates?) in the past on > > noble disciple, sikkha (training), method of practice(patipada), > jhana, > > and satipatthana. Hopefully, this post may help us reach a few > > conclusions --- or tie up a few loosed ends, so to speak. > > > > The Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains that 'ariya' or > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ======= > > > 54729 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Please don'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Hi all, Thanks for your replies regarding the object of thirst. Yes, Howard was right. I had in mind both the thirst of being thirsty and the thirst of tanha, as in dependent arising. I agree with you all that the object condition of thirst is feeling. Nina brought out the other "object" of thirst in the sense of what desire wants. I think it is a significant point that what desire wants is never present except via sa~n~naa and concept, but the object condition of desire is always present to desire through consciousness. They are both object of desire in different ways. Mike asked about consciousness rooted in ignorance. My thought at the moment is that ignorance ignores some of what consciousness cognizes. In other words, there is a slight, or not so slight, awareness of what we ignore. I don't think ignorance cetasika could completely obscure consciousness. Larry 54730 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:36pm Subject: Goenka Retreat- More Balanced Presentation? buddhatrue Hi Howard, Kelvin, Sarah, and All, I found this post on another Buddhist group "Jhana-Insight" and thought that perhaps it presents a more balanced approach to Goenka Retreats because it explains the positives and the negatives: --------------------------------------- I had to study with my first Dhamma teacher for six months before he decided to send me to retreat. I had never meditated before and knew nothing about it I was totally clueless when I went into my first retreat. I did know the Four Noble Truths, the history of India at the time of Gotama's life and why he taught. I was also introduced to the Noble Eightfold Path, which I am still trying to figure out. My first question to Sunim was, "What does 'right' mean?" Which at the time I really had no clue what that vow would entail or how it would totally change my life. After I took my Bodhisattva Vows, which was six months after study from the Pali Canon I was sent to Geonka's retreat. I think the reason Sunim sent me to Goenka's retreat was because I was so emotional and sensitive. For me it was perfect because I was also very determined to stay the course no matter how much this changed my life. Sunim said I was meant for the Higher Path, which I didn't understand what that meant at the time. I wanted to learn what his lay followers from Korea were doing at the temple. The Korean Buddhist temple where I studied Dhamma was of the Seon tradition and they chanted, gave offerings and did very little sitting meditation from what I could see at the temple. They also did a lot of service work related to Buddhism and providing for the Temple and Monks needs. I think I as just a very stubborn, sensitive redneck and Goenka's course was perfect for a hard head like me. It cracked this nut…lol For most students I am not sure Goenka's course would be helpful. From what I've seen the mind is very powerful and can cut deeply. At times people can cut too deeply and because there isn't a meditation teacher there on site that really knows the student well and can alter the sequencing of meditation and rest. I don't know if this kind of course is really good for an easy does it method, where you wade into the mind slowly. I had no problem with the regime myself but I am used to grueling work on the farm and withstanding lots of pain and discipline. Havingt to get up and milk the cows reminds me of the 4am bell... (hahaha) I used to reflect on my long distance running in relation to these courses during retreat. Ten days of hell and the bliss of delight just like a long run. For those who do not want or are not ready to have their lives totally upset and changed this kind of insight meditation may not be good for them. When I sit back and look at how my life is changed and all the pain I went through before I was introduced to Dhamma and after I started the Path I would say it is totally worth the sacrifices I made. I have given up everything I held dear only to get it back is so many wonderful ways. For those who have suffered long term trauma from abuse I don't know if this is a good place for them. It is cold and indifferent and will make you dig deep into what is making you suffer and the centers follow "Codes of Conduct" from India not America, which freaks many Americans out. For those who have Authority issues like me it can test your issues because teachers sit above you and their conduct is that of the Indian-Burmese culture. I was lucky I had to American teachers, husband and wife; Kathleen and Peter Martin take me under their wing and mentor me two years after I started doing the 10 day retreats. Both have been with Goenka since he started his retreats in American, which I think was back in the late 50's or early 60's. They reminded me of what might be termed "Dhamma Parents". They couldn't really help me with my issues but they gave me some good advice on how to physically handle the energy issue that came up when I accessed certain levels of consciousness. Most of the advice given was dealing with lack of sleep and anxiety at night. By the time Peter and Kathleen came into my life I was able to finally reach out and talk to teachers. Before that I didn't trust anyone and I still didn't talk to my teachers Sunim or meditation teachers about the visions or lights that I was dealing with. I didn't want them to think I was crazy (roles her eyes and laughs). Also when it comes to how you should meditate whether it's in the Dhamma hall or in your room the rules state that one only needs to sit in Dhamma hall for 3 hours a day. There are the evening Dhamma talks as well, the rest of the meditation time can be spent in your room, plus you can walk a couple hours a day during rest periods. With teachers permission you can do back to back courses which I have done. I've actually done a 30 day sit added up. That is doing 3 courses back to back and that was an interesting experience and I would not recommend this to anyone. It reminds me of doing one of those triathlons. http://www.dhamma.org/code.htm Again I must state this is not a course for the faint of heart, it brought up everything I repressed and didn't want to deal with and also introduced me to heaven and hell and everything in between. I don't think just anyone off the street should do Goenka's retreats, they need to study Dhamma and the History of Gotama's life and why he taught the Dhamma. If I have time later I will write down exactly why and what I have seen. We all carry such dark and heavy secrets and they tend to come out at these retreats, including repressed psychic powers. "Shivers" For those who are like me in nature it has done it's job and is a proper tool to use for removing what binds and causes suffering. --------------------------------------------- Metta, James 54731 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka Retreat- More Balanced Presentation? upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Kel and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/16/06 9:43:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, Kelvin, Sarah, and All, > > I found this post on another Buddhist group "Jhana-Insight" and > thought that perhaps it presents a more balanced approach to Goenka > Retreats because it explains the positives and the negatives: ========================== Thank you very much for this. Yes, the article is very good - very fair. I agree that a Goenka retreat is, as the writer said, not for the "faint of heart". It is also probably not the best choice for emotionally fragile people, because it plunges one right into the depths in an almost cold-turkey manner. I particularly think that one should ideally have a degree of meditation experience, including some short retreats, before doing a Goenka 10-day retreat. It would make for a very rough maidon voyage! The writer of this piece was very fortunate in having a wonderful pair of assistant teachers for his retreat. They sound much like the husband & wife pair that I was so fortunate in having. James, I very much appreciate your following up with this piece. You are admirably fair minded! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54732 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:02am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 360- Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] The Yokes or Yogas are another group of defilements. This group consists again of the same defilements as the cankers and the floods. We read in the Atthasåliní (I, Part I, Chapter II, 49) that the “yokes” tie a person to the cycle of birth and death. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 56) states about the yoghas (here translated as bonds): * "The Bonds are so called because they do not allow disengagement from an object and disengagement from suffering (dukkha)." * The four yoghas are: the yoke of sensuous desire, kåmayogha the yoke of desire for rebirth, bhavayogha The four yoghas are: the yoke of sensuous desire, kåmayogha the yoke of desire for rebirth, bhavayogha the yoke of wrong view, diììhiyogha the yoke of ignorance, avijjåyogha Thus, the yokes are the same defilements as the cankers and the floods, but the classification by way of yokes reminds us that we are tied to the round of rebirths. The different yokes are eradicated at the same stages of enlightenment as the corresponding cankers and floods ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54733 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year mr39515 Dear Chris Hi there... Killing is still killing. When one kill, one break the 1st precepts. No matter what one kill, killing is killing. KFC is a killing machine and I don't buy KCF stock cause I don't want to own a piece of Killing Machine Company and have the bad kamma of all those killing on me.... hahaha Buddhist practice is to avoid killing to to abstain from Killing when ever possible. If one can take this precepts, one take this precept and abstain from Killing. We live in the world of conditions else causation. If one were to face certain conditions which one must kill, one will break the 1st precepts and one will have to accept that resultant of that action. Kamma is our only Property no matter it is good or bad. So the question came about supply and demand. If there is no demand, there is no supply?? To answer that, Buddhist do not ask one to kill. If today, there is no Chicken to eat, Buddhist won't request to kill to eat chicken. We Buddhist can still eat other foods. That's why it is important we practice not to choose so that if there is no such food avaiable, we can still live on other non Akusala related food. I believe Monks practice that very well. However, Monks do have some guide line and will NOT accept the offering if: 1. Monk see the food is kill for him 2. Monks hear that such a killing to make the food offered 3. Monks suspect that the food is kill for him. Other than that, they will take what ever one offered into his bowl. Off course, we who do those offering need to understand that there are 10 types of animal Monks don't take for specific reasons. We, lay people could practice based on those guide lines as well. So don't worry about supply/demand issue. We have been around and around and around for so many lives that somehow or the other, no one can escape from the supply/demand issue. The only way out is to practice to attain enlightenment. I like the story of: Scenario 1 - If A don't like B. A ask C to kill B. And when the police catch C and heard about the order came from A, do you think the police will catch A as well?? Scenario 2 - If A don't like B. C knows that A don't like B and C kill B on his own. When the police catch C and hear C's story, do you think the police will catch A ?? I guess you can figure out that yourself. And if KFC kill all those chicken thinking we like to eat, I guess they will have to accept the kamma they created. Wisdom helps one in this life and many lives to come. Metta mr39515 --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hello All, > > Not wishing to cause a vegetarian vs meat eater > controversy ... but > surely being the entrepreneur who started the > Kentucky Fried Chicken > business which kills 850 million chickens (beings) > each year has to > have some negative kamma? > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1547575.htm > > And, if so, it makes me wonder ... where is the > cut-off point? Are > those O.K. who kill, or cause to kill, 850,000? or > 85,000? or > 8,500? or 850? or 85? or 8? Or are they creating > negative kamma? > > Aren't those of us who buy and eat meat creating the > demand that is > responsible for encouraging the continuing slaughter > of millions of > beings as well (causing to kill)? It seems too pat > an answer to > fall back on the rules made in ancient days for > monks who had no > choice as to what was put into their bowls ... > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54734 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:16am Subject: Tep (1) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, You’ve kindly said before that there’s no need for me to apologise to you for late replies, so I won’t say more on that, thank you (even though some of these comments are to posts of yours sent over a month ago!). Let me thank you at the outset for all your good posts, sutta quotes and kind comments contained in these posts. 1. #53526 your post to me. You liked some quotes from the Atthasalini and asked about the commentator. It was Buddhaghosa. Some historical background is given in ‘The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa’ by B.C.Law which suggests it was first written before he went to Sri Lanka and there revised/re-written in the light of the ancient Sinhalese commentaries preserved there. 2. Same post – you refer to ANX1 which you say “is precise about the concentration’s precedence of yathabhuta-nana...” When referring to the path factors, ‘copncentration’(Samadhi) usually refers to right effort, right awareness and right concentration. These have to be developed with right understanding, leading to insight knowledges (higher wisdom).The factors condition each other and we shouldn’t forget the many suttas which emphasise how right view is the forerunner (e.g S56:37 ‘just as the dawn....etc’, M117 ‘right view comes first’...etc). There is concentration at each moment, sometimes it’s stronger than at other times. Usually it’s ‘wrong’ or akusala concentration. Unless there is the development of right understanding of namas and rupas, there will never be the development of the accompanying right concentration which is a path factor. I agree with your comments about sanna as condition for mindfulness (as well as wisdom) in the same post. The indriyas (faculties), which you refer to, have to develop together. It’s not a case of developing one indriya and then another. The five indriyas (i.e saddhaa, viriya, sati, samaadhi and pa~n~naa) play a leading role in the development of the path. They all develop together until they become powerful and then they become balas (powers). This is impossible by developing them one by one. I think that SN48:50 has to be understood in this light. 3. Same post, I agree with your comments about how ‘there would be no need to always have to repeat the significance of wisdom’ and your other comments and good sutta quotes. You ask about the pre-requisite wisdom required by a sutta (AN X 71) and the qualities a monk must ‘train for “the ending of mental fermentations” ‘. I think the answer is always the same – it’s always the development of the path which is the only way. As satipatthana develops, all other concerns (such as those with regard to virtue) take care of themselves – they are clearly seen for what they are. Wholesome states are understood as wholesome, not a self’s or under the control of a self. The same for unwholesome states too. This is why the Buddha taught ‘one way’ only. 4. Linking up these last two points, I particularly appreciated the Patitthita Sutta SN XLVIII 56 which you quoted #53566. It stresses the guarding of the mind ‘in the midst of mental effluents and their concomitants.’ Such guarding has to be with the development of satipatthana, leadig to how ‘the five faculties are developed and developed well.’ It’s not a matter of calming or concentrating the mind first with an idea of self that can control, but of developing the right path factors which serve to do the guarding, as I see it.. (to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 54735 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:38am Subject: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles christine_fo... Hello all, In attempting to understand more about all schools of Buddhism, I have ordered 'The World of Tibetan Buddhism : An Overview of Its Philosophy and Practice by His Holiness the Dalai Lama'. I wonder if anyone would comment on the books' opening remarks below, about the difference between the Theravada and Mahayana understanding and teaching of Anatta. "Within the Buddha's Vehicle there are two major systems of thought and practice: the Individual Vehicle, or Hinayana, and the Universal Vehicle, or Mahayana. The former includes the Theravada system, which is the predominant form of Buddhism in many Asian countries, such as Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, and others. In classical Buddhist literature, the Individual Vehicle is described as having two main divisions: the Hearers' Vehicle and the Solitary Realizers' Vehicle. A principal difference between the Individual Vehicle and the Universal Vehicle exists in their view on the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness and the scope of its application. The Individual Vehicle expounds the view of selflessness only in relation to person and personal identity but not in relation to things and events in general, whereas the Universal Vehicle, the principle of selflessness is not confined to the limited scope of the person but encompasses the entire spectrum of existence, all phenomena. In other words, the Universal Vehicle system understands selflessness as a universal principle. Interpreted in this way, the principle of selflessness acquires greater profundity." (The World of Tibetan Buddhism : An Overview of Its Philosophy and Practice by His Holiness the Dalai Lama) metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54736 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma of eight hundred and fifty million + deaths each year christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: 'some snipped for brevity only' > I believe Monks practice that very well. However, > Monks do have some guide line and will NOT accept the > offering if: > 1. Monk see the food is kill for him > 2. Monks hear that such a killing to make the food > offered > 3. Monks suspect that the food is kill for him. > > Other than that, they will take what ever one offered > into his bowl. Off course, we who do those offering > need to understand that there are 10 types of animal > Monks don't take for specific reasons. > > We, lay people could practice based on those guide > lines as well. So don't worry about supply/demand > issue. We have been around and around and around for > so many lives that somehow or the other, no one can > escape from the supply/demand issue. The only way out > is to practice to attain enlightenment. > > I like the story of: > Scenario 1 - > If A don't like B. A ask C to kill B. And when the > police catch C and heard about the order came from A, > do you think the police will catch A as well?? > > Scenario 2 - > If A don't like B. C knows that A don't like B and C > kill B on his own. When the police catch C and hear > C's story, do you think the police will catch A ?? > > I guess you can figure out that yourself. > And if KFC kill all those chicken thinking we like to > eat, I guess they will have to accept the kamma they > created. > > Wisdom helps one in this life and many lives to come. > > Metta > mr39515 Hello mr39515, Thank you for your reply and explanation of what the Theravada tradition teaches. I like your examples - something to consider and think about. :-) metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54737 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:02am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 221 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 221 Intro: In the following sections more similes are used in order to remind us of the danger and disadvantage of the arising of the khandhas in the cycle of birth and death. --------- Text Vis.: Also they are (respectively) like the prison, the punishment, the offence, the punisher, and the offender. And they are like the dish, the food,the curry sauce [poured over the food], the server, and the eater.[83] This is how to be seen, namely, in brief and in detail. -------------------------------- Note 83, taken from the Tiika: 'The matter of the body is like the 'prison' because it is the site of the punishment. ------- N: In Vis. Ch.XVI,18, we are reminded that we are in the prison of the cycle of birth and death. --------- Text Tiika:'Perception is like the offence' because owing to perception of beauty, etc., it is a cause of the 'punishment', which is 'feeling'. ------- N: When there is the perversity of saññaa that sees the foul as beautiful, clinging accompanied by pleasant feeling is likely to arise. Pleasant feeling may be attractive, but in reality it is a punishment, it is dukkha. -------- Text Tiika: The 'formations aggregate' is like the 'punisher' because it is a cause of feeling. ------- N: The formations, with cetanaa as chief, are the root-cause (muula-kaara.na) of feeling. ---------- 'Text Tiika: Consciousness' is like the 'offender' because it is afflicted by feeling. Again, 'matter' is like the 'dish' because it bears the food. 'Perception' is like the 'curry sauce' because, owing to perception of beauty, etc., it hides the 'food', which is 'feeling'. ------- N: When currysauce is poured over loathsome food, one does not notice that is not delicious. one takes it for savoury. Perversity of saññaa keeps on deceiving, since it takes for beautiful what is foul, for permanent what is impermanent, etc. --------- The 'formations aggregate' is like the 'server' because it is a cause of 'feeling'; and service is included since one who is taking a meal is usually served. 'Consciousness' is like the 'eater' because it is helped by feeling' (Pm.504). -------- N: This simile is elaborated on in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 277) as follows: ______ Conclusion: Also at this moment we are misled by perversity of saññaa: we take for beautiful what is foul, we take for happiness what is dukkha, we take for permanent what is impermanent and we take for self what is anattaa. We believe that it is good to be reborn and we fail to see that the cycle of birth is like a prison. Because of the arising again and again in rebirth of the khandhas of grasping, we are as it were imprisoned. By the development of right understanding of the dhamma appearing now we shall eventually be freed from this prison. ***** Nina. 54738 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions nilovg Hi Tep, I should have quoted the whole sutta, but I have lack of time. The beginning is: "O monks, I do not perceive even any other dhamma by which non-arisen kusala dhammas arise or arisen kusala dhammas increase, .... as right view. Nina. ---- op 16-01-2006 22:33 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: I very much appreciate the above explanation, Nina. :-) 54739 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:02am Subject: Tep (2) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Continuing.... 5. In #53568, you were discussing hiri and ottappa (shame and remorse or ‘conscience & concern’ as given in translation of a sutta – I think the latter translation for them is rather good.....shame & remorse always sounds too much like a kind of dosa (aversion) to me). You ask about the development of these important qualities and say they cannot just arise from “accumulation”. Again, I think that the development of all wholesome qualities and especially understanding and awareness of these is very important. According to the Abhidhamma, hiri and ottappa arise with all wholesome cittas. So when there is dana, sila or bhavana, there is ‘conscience and concern’. When there is attachment, aversion or ignorance of any kind, there is no conscience, no concern. I think we can learn to see the difference between the varying states, such as metta and attachment. No hiri or ottappa with the latter. ..... 6. In #53575 (to me), you question whether the Buddha’s teachings were really about paramattha dhammas rather than the 4NT and ‘other related bodhipakkhiya dhammas’. Let me stress that these ARE all paramattha dhammas. You go on to say that ‘the ultimate realities are just concepts’ and that the suttas teach the Eightfold Path. You kindly ask me to say if I disagree, so I am! The first NT is dukkha, the characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. Conditioned dhammas are cittas, cetasikas and rupas – all paramattha dhammas. Not concepts. The second NT is tanha or lobha cetasika (attachment) – a paramattha dhamma The third NT is the cessation of dukkha or nibbana – another paramattha dhamma Finally, the fourth NT is the eightfold path – each cetasikas, each paramattha dhammas to be developed. ..... Tep, all that exists at this moment are paramattha dhammas – cittas, cetasikas and rupas. It is the understanding of these dhammas, leading to the understanding of these dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, that is the only way. We use concepts to talk about presently arising dhammas such as seeing, hearing, like and dislike – but they are concepts pointing to realities, as opposed to concepts pointing to imaginary objects, such as when we talk about tables and chairs. .... 7. In #53575 you ask what level of understanding I’m referring to when I say that discipline with understanding leads to restraint. I can only say that the more right understanding developed, the higher the degree of restraint. The restraint or guarding of a sotapanna is higher than that of a worldling following the path. That’s why only a sotapanna has developed higher virtue. You go on to say that ‘it is obvious that we must have certain ‘understanding’ to guide any activity (seeing.....writing, reading) otherwise we cannot perform any human’s function.’ With respect, Tep, the kind of conventional understanding we’re used to referring to (and which a child learns) has nothing to do with the right understanding of realities which the Buddha taught. .... 8. In the same post you ask about the level of understanding the noble disciple is assumed to have and whether it’s the same as the ‘full understanding that eradicates all defilements’. Without having developed that ‘full understanding’ and all prior stages of insight which you’ve quoted before, there cannot be any ‘noble disciple’. Of course, the wisdom of the magga cittas which eradicate defilements only arises at such moments of lokuttara cittas taking nibbana as object. In between such path moments, the noble disciple continues to develop satipatthana without any doubts about namas and rupas being the ‘all’ experienced. .... 9. Finally, in the same post, you refer to mention of ‘new monks’. The path is the same for all – one eightfold path, whether for worldlings or ariyans. It has to develop. It leads to the ‘establishment’ of the path factors. Isn’t it the same for us – being encouraged to be virtuous, restrained and to develop right view? We would like to have perfect virtue and to always be good, but unless we really see the danger in harmful thoughts, speech and action, is it possible? Isn’t by really considering the teachings deeply and beginning to follow the path that gradually we come to really appreciate what is good and what is bad and the reasons for the Buddha’s reminders? In particular, I’d say, that it’s by understanding all dhammas as mere dhammas, not as mine or yours, that there is a growing detachment to what is conditioned with understanding. This is the way that the tenacious grip of lobha can gradually be seen for what it is – the cause of all dukkha. Being attached to being a good person and having aversion to unwholesome states when they arise is not the way to develop detachment and to follow the path, as I see it. Thanks again for all your helpful posts and sutta quotes. (to be contd sometime, I hope!) Metta, Sarah ======== 54740 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking , ignorance. nilovg Hi Larry, op 17-01-2006 01:52 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > My thought at the > moment is that ignorance ignores some of what consciousness cognizes. In > other words, there is a slight, or not so slight, awareness of what we > ignore. I don't think ignorance cetasika could completely obscure > consciousness. ------- N: As to citta rooted in moha, citta and all accompanying cetasikas, moha included experience an object. Moha arises with each akusala citta. It arises with citta rooted in lobha, or in dosa, or with citta accompanied by doubt, or with the citta that is called accompanied by distraction (uddhacca). Also now there is likely to be the last mentioned type of citta. When awareness of a dhamma arises, we can notice the difference with the distraction or unawareness that arose before. In this way its characteristic can be known and that is the only way to understand it. It makes no sense to wonder about the object of ignorance. At the moment of ignorance, we cannot possibly find out about this. Nina. 54741 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:02am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 7 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 7 We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch VI, § 6, Ideas, about ten kinds of saññå, here translated as ideas: ³Monks, these ten ideas, if made to grow and made much of, are of great fruit, of great profit for plunging into the deathless, for ending up in the deathless. What ten ideas? The idea of the foul, of death, of the repulsiveness in food, of distaste for all the world, the idea of impermanence, of ill in impermanence, of not-self in Ill, the idea of abandoning, of fading, of ending...² Plunging into the deathless means the attainment of nibbåna. This sutta implies that all these ten kinds of saññå are developed together with satipatthåna, otherwise they could not lead to the deathless. The following Sutta explains the connection of similar kinds of saññå with the ³throrough comprehension of lust². We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch XXII, § 8, Lust: ³ Monks, for the thorough comprehension of lust ten qualities should be made to grow. What ten? The idea of the foul, of death, of the repulsiveness in food, of non-delight in all the world, of impermanence, of ill, of the not-self, of abandoning, of fading interest, and the idea of ending...² Thus, it is emphasized here that paññå leads to detachment. The arahat has thorough comprehension of lobha, so that it can be completely eradicated. ******* Nina. 54742 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:18am Subject: Ending all Sadness & Frustration ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Mental State in which all Sadness and Frustration End? Where does all mental melancholy and depression cease without a trace remaining ? When, with the fading away & stilling of all directed thought & any sustained thinking, one enters and remains in the second jhana absorption of assured unification of mind, merged with pleasure and joy, born of & in this anchored & fixed concentration: It is right there, that all mental frustration and sadness cease without a trace remaining... Therefore do beings reborn at the radiant divinity level, never feel any mental sorrow, misery or sadness, since they are continously absorped in this 2nd jhana concentration... Thus they move their body of beaming light joyously around at the speed of a thought!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V 213-4 The Abilities section 48. Thread on The Irregular Order: Uppatika 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 54743 From: s.billard@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles sbillard2000 "The Individual Vehicle expounds the view of selflessness only in relation to person and personal identity but not in relation to things and events in general" So why in the Pali itterature it is said that all dhammas are self-less ? I would't rely on tibetan litterature to learn about Theravada. The tibetan "hinayana" has nothing to do with Theravada. Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr 54744 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:31am Subject: Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > In attempting to understand more about all schools of Buddhism, I > have ordered 'The World of Tibetan Buddhism : ... Hallo Christine, all I have read many reviews about the differences between Theravada and Mahayana, but this one is new. "Selflessness as a universal principle" as the Dalai Lama (I refuse the use the term "His Holiness") explains must be another phrase for the term emptiness, voidness or other translations of sunyata (in pali: sunnata, see Nyatiloka below) The question is: is the Dalai Lama correct in his (indirect made) statement that Theravada does NOT "understand selflessness as a universal principle" ? I think he is not correct. In my understanding of Theravada the Buddha was only interested in awakening the individual hearers/readers; and - because it is not important - He was silent about the rest of the universe. And if we want to speculate about is, stated in Abhidhamma- terminology: the universe is a concept (pannatti). I think all concepts are empty but I'm not sure if this is according the orthodoxy. BTW 1: Let's forget the use of the term "Hinayana" by the Dalai Lama: he knows he should not use it, but the Tibetan tradition to do it, is very strong. BTW 2: A good ebook about the major tradions of Buddhism is "The tree of Enlightenment" by Peter Della Santina http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dsantina/tree/ Metta Joop Nyatiloka's dictionary: suñña (adj.), suññatá (noun): void (ness), empty (emptiness). As a doctrinal term it refers, in Theraváda, exclusively to the anattá doctrine,.i.e. the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: "Void is the world ... because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self" (suññam attena vá attaniyena vá; S. XXXV, 85); also stated of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) in the same text. See also M. 43, M. 106. - In CNidd. (quoted in Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind-consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." - In M. 121, the voiding of the mind of the cankers, in the attainment of Arahatship, is regarded as the "fully purified and incomparably highest (concept of) voidness. - See Sn. v. 1119; M. 121; M. 122 (WHEEL 87); Pts.M. II: Suñña-kathá; Vis.M. XXI, 53ff. 54745 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:14am Subject: Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles scottduncan2 ". . . A principal difference between the Individual Vehicle and the Universal Vehicle exists in their view on the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness and the scope of its application. The Individual Vehicle expounds the view of selflessness only in relation to person and personal identity but not in relation to things and events in general, whereas the Universal Vehicle, the principle of selflessness is not confined to the limited scope of the person but encompasses the entire spectrum of existence, all phenomena. In other words, the Universal Vehicle system understands selflessness as a universal principle. Interpreted in this way, the principle of selflessness acquires greater profundity." >Dear Chrisine, I wonder why "anatta" is translated to mean "selflessness" as opposed to the usual "not-self" or "no-self" that I am used to? I, in my naive understanding, have not thought that anatta referred only to the person or personal identity but extended it to include all existants and existence; in other words, I understand that when one says that no thing is permanent one means that all things are anatta. This understanding was derived from my contact within the Theravadin tradition. Was I perhaps incorrect in this? Is his statement not incorrect as far as summarising the Theravadin perspective? Surely this subtlety reflects even further the distinction being made by HHDL. To me this word resonates into the deeper distinction which always seems to be a significant bone of contention between schools as it connotes another sense altogether - the differentiation of "selfless" vs "selfish" and the whole controversy regarding the understanding of "bodhisatta." I guess that using the word "selflessness" to translate "anatta" may be correct from a certain standpoint but it is a word which leads to the unavoidable comparison of aims and motivations; of better-than and worse-than. Isn't the philosophical distinction implicit in the use of the word "selflessness" for anatta simply the Mahayana view, in more than one sense? Is the concept of "sunnata" not being mixed in here as well? Sincerely, Scott. 54746 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway nilovg Hi Howard, op 16-01-2006 21:01 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > But such speech still leaves untouched the technical question of whether > parallel sense-door processing occurs. ------ N: Indeed a technical quuestion, and I do not quite get it! I do not see this in the Abhidhamma, paralel processing. As you also suggest, it is an abstract notion, it does not lead to understanding this moment, and hence not to freedom. You write: Yes, but in the suttas it has a specific meaning, quite unique, different from all other ways of speaking. It leads directly to the goal, it exhorts us not to be forgetful of what is right at hand. We are seeing and hearing at this moment and we are usually forgetful to investigate these dhammas. We do not see dhamma as dhamma, not belonging to anyone, not having a possessor. Nina. 54747 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Pleasedon'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry, I haven't read any other responses yet so this is likely redundant: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Pleasedon'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) > I think it is a significant > point that what desire wants is never present except via sa~n~naa and > concept, but the object condition of desire is always present to desire > through consciousness. They are both object of desire in different ways. I think that the object of attachment--or desire--can be present without concept, in a sense-door process e.g. Of course sa~n~naa is always present with or without lobha (as it is a universal). > Mike asked about consciousness rooted in ignorance. My thought at the > moment is that ignorance ignores some of what consciousness cognizes. In > other words, there is a slight, or not so slight, awareness of what we > ignore. I don't think ignorance cetasika could completely obscure > consciousness. Moha cetasika isn't present without consciousness and is (I think) always also present with lobha and dosa. What is obscured is not the consciousness but the object--whether concept or dhamma--of both the citta and its cetasikas unless I'm mistaken. mike 54748 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:41am Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - >Htoo: > May I copy your post and put it in other lists? Please do! Anytime too!! With appreciations, Tep ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Friend Tep, Thank you very much, indeed. With regards, Htoo 54749 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway nilovg Hi TG, Dvara in Pali, and this occurs frequently in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. But the notion is the same as in the Suttas where we find: through the senses and the mind. Doorway is the means through which an object, be it a sense object or a mental object, is experienced. To me the notion denoted by a word is important, and if there are differences in expression between sutta and Abhidhamma, that is understandable. There is a sutta about a lizard, the sense-doors and the mind-door, but I have no time to look it up now. Nina. op 16-01-2006 22:44 schreef TGrand458@... op TGrand458@...: > Nina, the quote you cited above does not use the term "door." Does the Pali > use the term "door"? If not, I find it interesting that you use the above > quote to make the claim that -- "All the time the Buddha speaks about the > objects experienced through the six >> doors 54750 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles TGrand458@... Hi Joop, Christine, All, These quotes should end any debate on the Buddha's outlook on Self. Its very sad if the Dalai Lama is teaching that Theravadin only speaks about "individual no-self." “It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat anything as self – there is no such possibility.â€? (The Buddha . . . Majjhima Nikaya --MLDB, pg. 928, The Many Kinds of Elements, Bahudhatuka Sutta #115) “All formations are impermanent; all things are not self.â€? (The Buddha . . . Majjhima Nikaya --MLDB, pg. 322, The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka, Culasaccaka Sutta, #35) “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Empty is the world, empty is the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said, ‘Empty is the world’?â€? “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’â€? (The Buddha . . . Samyutta Nikaya --CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1163) In a message dated 1/17/2006 6:43:30 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: Hallo Christine, all I have read many reviews about the differences between Theravada and Mahayana, but this one is new. "Selflessness as a universal principle" as the Dalai Lama (I refuse the use the term "His Holiness") explains must be another phrase for the term emptiness, voidness or other translations of sunyata (in pali: sunnata, see Nyatiloka below) The question is: is the Dalai Lama correct in his (indirect made) statement that Theravada does NOT "understand selflessness as a universal principle" ? I think he is not correct. In my understanding of Theravada the Buddha was only interested in awakening the individual hearers/readers; and - because it is not important - He was silent about the rest of the universe. And if we want to speculate about is, stated in Abhidhamma- terminology: the universe is a concept (pannatti). I think all concepts are empty but I'm not sure if this is according the orthodoxy. m54751 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:01am Subject: Parallel Processing TGrand458@... Hi Charles, Howard, All I want to see if we are on a similar track with this ... Let's say a mind is currently paying attention to one thing at a time. For example, we are reading a book. Attention, consciousness, etc., are focused on a sequence of connecting events within the books contents. All of a sudden, we hear a police siren go by and attention is distracted to a different sense base reaction. In order to be distract away from one base to another, it seems to me that all the sense bases need some level of subconscious awareness that is more or less always active. Is this the type of thing you mean when you are talking about parallel processing? Or are you speaking about a different thing? Thank for the feedback. TG 54752 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:26am Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] buddhistmedi... Hi, Dhamma Friend Htoo - May I ask you for a comment on MN 125? Do you find it special in certain ways? Warm regards, Tep ======= > > Htoo: > > Thank you very much, indeed. > 54753 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Charles) - In a message dated 1/17/06 2:31:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > Hi Charles, Howard, All > > I want to see if we are on a similar track with this ... > > Let's say a mind is currently paying attention to one thing at a time. For > > example, we are reading a book. Attention, consciousness, etc., are > focused > on a sequence of connecting events within the books contents. All of a > sudden, we hear a police siren go by and attention is distracted to a > different > sense base reaction. > > In order to be distract away from one base to another, it seems to me that > all the sense bases need some level of subconscious awareness that is more > or > less always active. Is this the type of thing you mean when you are > talking > about parallel processing? Or are you speaking about a different thing? > > Thank for the feedback. > > TG > ===================== What you are pointing to accords with a pet theory of mine. The theory is that there is parallel processing, via several sense doors, but only one input rises to the level of "object" of conscousness. This theory has the particular appeal of being in harmony with the commentarial notion of rupas arising in a bundle, and also fitting in with my phenomenalist perspective. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54754 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:54pm Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your question. You asked whether in 'in certain way'. For me not. But for others I think they should investigate. That is why I asked your permission to post it in other lists. I have posted it after receiving your permission. I acknowledge it as 'it is posted at DSG by a DSG member Tep'. Thanks for your communication. With regards, Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Dhamma Friend Htoo - > > May I ask you for a comment on MN 125? > > Do you find it special in certain ways? > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ======= > > > > > Htoo: > > > > > Thank you very much, indeed. > > > 54755 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:18pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 628 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaaraa. Ignorance conditions 'formation'. Formation is conditioned by ignorance. Because of ignorance, formation has to arise. Depending on ignorance formation has to arise. Ignorance supports formation. Formation or kamma-formation is being done because of ignorance. What is ignoranced? Suffering is ignored. The cause of of suffering is ignored. Because of ignorance to cessation of suffering formation are done. Because of ignorance of the Path leading to cessation of suffering formation is done. When one cannot know these right things they will be doing kamma- formation again and again. Because of this the cycle of Dependent origination has to continue. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54756 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:40pm Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo - Sometimes, your answer led me to more questions. This is one of such occasions. > Htoo: > Thanks for your question. You asked whether in 'in certain way'. > For me not. But for others I think they should investigate. > That is why I asked your permission to post it in other lists. I > have posted it after receiving your permission. I acknowledge it as > 'it is posted at DSG by a DSG member Tep'. Thanks for your > communication. > But, this time I'd rather not ask further questions! (:->|} Yours truly, Tep ======= 54757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (Re Pleasedon'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Hi Mike, A few comments: Mike: "I think that the object of attachment--or desire--can be present without concept, in a sense-door process e.g. Of course sa~n~naa is always present with or without lobha (as it is a universal)." L: I agree that what one is attached to could be the object condition of attachment, but I don't think what is desired could be the object condition of desire. There is a certain logic to desire that would make it illogical to desire what is present. Even if we desire more of what is present that "more" is not present. Mike: "Moha cetasika isn't present without consciousness and is (I think) always also present with lobha and dosa. What is obscured is not the consciousness but the object--whether concept or dhamma--of both the citta and its cetasikas unless I'm mistaken." L: Consciousness knows the object and ignorance ignores the object. It is said in Vism. that consciousness knows the three general characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, and anatta) so I would suppose ignorance ignores some part of that. Additionally, it seems to me that consciousness only knows compact wholes at best, since it takes pa~n~naa (insight) to know particular dhammas. Larry 54758 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,222 Vism.XIV,223 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 222. 5. 'Twice as to how to be seen': the exposition should be known twice as to how to be seen, namely, in brief and in detail. 223. In brief [that is, collectively] the five aggregates as objects of clinging should be seen as an enemy with drawn sword (S.iv,174) in the Snake Simile, as a burden (S.iii,25) according to the Burden Sutta, as a devourer (S.iii,87f.) according to the To-be-devoured Discourse, and as impermanent, painful, not-self, formed, and murderous, according to the Yamaka Sutta (S.iii,112f.). ********************* 222. da.t.thabbato dvidhaati sa"nkhepato vitthaarato caati eva.m dvidhaa da.t.thabbatopettha vinicchayanayo vi~n~naatabbo. 223. sa"nkhepato hi pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa aasiivisuupame (sa.m0 ni0 2.4.238) vuttanayena ukkhittaasikapaccatthikato, bhaarasuttavasena (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.22) bhaarato, khajjaniiyapariyaayavasena (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.79) khaadakato, yamakasuttavasena (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.85) aniccadukkhaanattasa"nkhatavadhakato da.t.thabbaa. 54759 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:17pm Subject: Re: Tep (1) buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Attn. Nina, Jon, KenH, TG, Phil)- I have always been amazed by your dedication to careful reading & answering the fast-flowing DSG messages. How do you manage to do that and still have time for other important things in life? >Sarah: You've kindly said before that there's no need for me to apologise to you for late replies, so I won't say more on that, thank you (even though some of these comments are to posts of yours sent over a month ago!). Let me thank you at the outset for all your good posts, sutta quotes and kind comments contained in these posts. Tep: It was not always easy for me to absorb everything in your messages that contained a lot of information. So I considered that one-month time interval a good "break", Sarah. :-) Thank you for being consistently gentle and encouraging. However, I know that there are others who completely disagree with you concerning the value of my comments and interpretations of the suttas. (|<:} ....................... >Sarah: #53526 your post to me. You liked some quotes from the Atthasalini and asked about the commentator. It was Buddhaghosa. ... Tep: Thank you. No wonder why I liked them! Venerable Buddhaghosa was a great monk. ...................... >S: When referring to the path factors, `concentration'(Samadhi) usually refers to right effort, right awareness and right concentration. These have to be developed with right understanding, leading to insight knowledges (higher wisdom). The factors condition each other and we shouldn't forget the many suttas which emphasise how right view is the forerunner ... Tep: Yes. I have read those suttas. But we shouldn't forget either that the forerunner 'right view' can be developed in several ways (see MN 9, for example). We should also notice that there are several kinds of understanding (e.g. 12 kinds, according to the Visuddhimagga, XIV, 8) and that 'right view'(samma-ditthi) [ Vism XVI, 75-76] is defined as "eye of understanding with Nibbana as its object" for a meditator who is "progressing towards the penetration of the four truths". Further, "Any right view, any right thinking: these are included in the understanding aggragate" [Vism. XVI, 95], where understanding is panna (Vism. Index, page 881) and that Ven. Buddhaghosa dedicated 10 chapters to expound "understanding". ............ >S: There is concentration at each moment, sometimes it's stronger than at other times. Usually it's `wrong' or akusala concentration. Unless there is the development of right understanding of namas and rupas, there will never be the development of the accompanying right concentration which is a path factor. Tep: That's a good supplement to the sutta that I quoted earlier : "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." Is there mindfulness along with concentration at each moment too? Why or why not? ........... >S: The indriyas (faculties), which you refer to, have to develop together. It's not a case of developing one indriya and then another. The five indriyas (i.e saddhaa, viriya, sati, samaadhi and pa~n~naa) play a leading role in the development of the path. They all develop together until they become powerful and then they become balas (powers). This is impossible by developing them one by one. I think that SN48:50 has to be understood in this light. Tep: Perhaps you are trying to read into the sutta more than its content indicates! Please read the passages from SN 48:50 below one more time. How can you say that strong conviction(saddha), resolution(adhimokkha) and persistence(viriya) do not come first as requisite conditions for the development of the faculty of mindfulness? SN 48:50: "With a noble disciple who has conviction, it may be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities, that he will be steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. Whatever persistence he has, is his faculty of persistence. "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, it may be expected that he will be mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago. Whatever mindfulness he has, is his faculty of mindfulness." .................. >S: As satipatthana develops, all other concerns (such as those with regard to virtue) take care of themselves – they are clearly seen for what they are. ... ... It's not a matter of calming or concentrating the mind first with an idea of self that can control, but of developing the right path factors which serve to do the guarding, as I see it. Tep: Well, you have the personal right to choose what you want to believe! I guess the best proof is always in the dhamma that you experience -- 'paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi': 'to be seen by the wise for themselves', so to speak. I always wish you the greatest success in the Dhamma, Sarah. Best wishes, Tep ================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > (to be contd) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > 54760 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (RePleasedon'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (RePleasedon'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) > Mike: "I think that the object of attachment--or desire--can be present > without concept, in a sense-door process e.g. Of course sa~n~naa is > always present with or without lobha (as it is a universal)." > > L: I agree that what one is attached to could be the object condition of > attachment, but I don't think what is desired could be the object > condition of desire. There is a certain logic to desire that would make > it illogical to desire what is present. Even if we desire more of what > is present that "more" is not present. I think this is why lobha is often best translated 'attachment'--lobha for what is absent is desire, for what is present attachment. Like so much it is a matter of context as I see it. > Mike: "Moha cetasika isn't present without consciousness and is (I > think) always also present with lobha and dosa. What is obscured is not > the consciousness but the object--whether concept or dhamma--of both the > citta and its cetasikas unless I'm mistaken." > > L: Consciousness knows the object and ignorance ignores the object. Agreed, but citta with moha still experiences the object--but the object is obscured. I have liked 'ignorance ignores' in the past and maybe it does make some sense. Still I think that moha muula citta does experience the object just as does any other citta. Just my understanding of course. > It > is said in Vism. that consciousness knows the three general > characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, and anatta) so I would suppose > ignorance ignores some part of that. It might be helpful to me if you could cite the Vism. specifically to this effect. I would think that vipassanaa or pa~n~naa or ~naa.na would know the three characteristics, so consciousness with any of those factors would know them. Consciousness with moha would either fail to understand them or misunderstand them I think. Still citta with moha would nevertheless experience whatever dhamma or concept with which it came into contact through the mind- or sense- door as I see it. > Additionally, it seems to me that > consciousness only knows compact wholes at best, since it takes pa~n~naa > (insight) to know particular dhammas. I think that consciousness knows dhammas (such as cakkhuvi~n~naa.na knowing color) or concepts whether moha or pa~n~naa (or neither) are present or not. Not sure what you mean by 'compact wholes'. Would like to hear more though, thanks in advance (also for any corrections). mike 54761 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing scottduncan2 "What you are pointing to accords with a pet theory of mine. The theory is that there is parallel processing, via several sense doors, but only one input rises to the level of "object" of conscousness. This theory has the particular appeal of being in harmony with the commentarial notion of rupas arising in a bundle, and also fitting in with my phenomenalist perspective." Howard Dear Howard, Wouldn't parallel processing require that one accept that more than one citta can arise at once? Rupas arising as a bundle is one thing, since a rupa has no capacity for consciousness. In this sense the comparison would seem to me to like that between apples and oranges. It is the citta which "perceives" rupa, as far as my understanding goes. The idea that a significant number of cittas can arise within a significantly short period of time seems enough to cover the contingency cited while remaining parsimonious. Your suggestion, it would seem to me, involves adding a whole layer of concommittantly arising cittas and would need some mechanism whereby the citta of choice finds admittance as an object of consciousness, and a process whereby the "sub-conscious" cadre of cittas somehow queue up and remain "in place." I don't think this is consistent with the way I have understood things. Which, of course, is not saying much at all. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. 54762 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:04pm Subject: Re: Ending all Sadness & Frustration ... !!! scottduncan2 "What is the Mental State in which all Sadness and Frustration End? Where does all mental melancholy and depression cease without a trace remaining ? When, with the fading away & stilling of all directed thought & any sustained thinking, one enters and remains in the second jhana absorption of assured unification of mind, merged with pleasure and joy, born of & in this anchored & fixed concentration: It is right there, that all mental frustration and sadness cease without a trace remaining... Therefore do beings reborn at the radiant divinity level, never feel any mental sorrow, misery or sadness, since they are continously absorped in this 2nd jhana concentration... Thus they move their body of beaming light joyously around at the speed of a thought!!!" Venerable Samahita, Thank you for the post. May I ask if this suggests that to have entered once into the second jhana absorption causes the cessation of all mental frustration and sadness? Or is it that one has to achieve the ability to enter and remain in the second jhana absorption permanently in order for this cessation to occur? Or is it that while absorbed in the second jhana one experiences the suppression of all mental frustration and sadness? Thank you for your kind consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 54763 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (RePleasedon'trun away yet, DAN 1.ii) lbidd2 Hi Mike, Here's the section on what consciousness knows, pa~n~naa is translated as "understanding" Vism.XIV,3: In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Here's Nina's trans. of the commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24135 Here's something on "compact mass" which I called "compact whole": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/54200 and Nina's explanation from the commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/54242 Larry 54764 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing TGrand458@... Hi Howard, Scott, Charles, All, Each sense has to have some way of "interrupting" the current conscious involvement/attention. Example: -- The "vibrations" from a new dominant-audio-experience need to be able to "shut down" whatever mental activities are taking place in order to replace them with the new audio experience. Such "vibrations" from any sense base need to have some sort of latent ability to overcome concurrent attentions. This may not be parallel processing, but there is some measure of "stand by" alertness of all senses that simultaneously is available pretty much all the time. I have no problem calling this "subconsciousness" in regard to all the sense faculties that are functional yet not currently an active operating consciousness process. This may mean there is another layer of "subcittas" that don't come into full consciousness because there is no attention being applied to them. Attention being like a magnifying glass making the mind fully aware of that particular sense experience. Without attention, they can't stand up "on their own." It may not be a subconsciousness...but nevertheless, a "non-processing sense" has to have the ability to overcome a "processing sense." This means "sensitivity" and "sensitivity" to me would seem to mean consciousness. TG In a message dated 1/17/2006 7:41:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: "What you are pointing to accords with a pet theory of mine. The theory is that there is parallel processing, via several sense doors, but only one input rises to the level of "object" of conscousness. This theory has the particular appeal of being in harmony with the commentarial notion of rupas arising in a bundle, and also fitting in with my phenomenalist perspective." Howard Dear Howard, Wouldn't parallel processing require that one accept that more than one citta can arise at once? Rupas arising as a bundle is one thing, since a rupa has no capacity for consciousness. In this sense the comparison would seem to me to like that between apples and oranges. It is the citta which "perceives" rupa, as far as my understanding goes. The idea that a significant number of cittas can arise within a significantly short period of time seems enough to cover the contingency cited while remaining parsimonious. Your suggestion, it would seem to me, involves adding a whole layer of concommittantly arising cittas and would need some mechanism whereby the citta of choice finds admittance as an object of consciousness, and a process whereby the "sub-conscious" cadre of cittas somehow queue up and remain "in place." I don't think this is consistent with the way I have understood things. Which, of course, is not saying much at all. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. 54765 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:26pm Subject: Awareness by Breathing ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How is continuous Awareness Established only by Breathing ? Sitting cross-legged, with straight back by elevating his chin, in a silent place, the yogi remains focusing all attention on the touch point of air in his nostrils: Fully aware one inhales and fully aware one exhales... When inhaling a long breath, one understands that... When exhaling a long breath, one understands that... When inhaling a short breath, one understands that... When exhaling a short breath, one understands that... Experiencing the whole body, one inhales... Experiencing the whole body, one exhales... Calming any bodily activity, one inhales... Calming any bodily activity, one exhales... One trains thus: Experiencing joyous rapture, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing joyous rapture, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing any mental activity, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing any mental activity, I will exhale... One trains thus: Calming any mental activity, I will inhale... One trains thus: Calming any mental activity, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing any mentality & mood, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing any mentality & mood, I will exhale... One trains thus: Satisfying by gladdening the mind, I will inhale... One trains thus: Satisfying by gladdening the mind, I will exhale... One trains thus: Focusing the mind by concentration, I will inhale... One trains thus: Focusing the mind by concentration, I will exhale... One trains thus: Releasing the mind from hindrance, I will inhale... One trains thus: Releasing the mind from hindrance, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the impermanent change, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the impermanent change, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the detaching disillusion, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the detaching disillusion, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the stilling within ceasing, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the stilling within ceasing, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering open & freed relinquishing, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering open & freed relinquishing, I will exhale... This is how continuous awareness is established just by breathing!!! Breathing meditation can bring the yogi into 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Jhana... It is a unique praxis used by all Buddhas at their very Enlightenment!!! Details are found in this Meditation Manual: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm Source: The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya. Sutta 118 AnapanaSati. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 54766 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:20pm Subject: Re: Ending all Sadness, Frustration other states ... bhikkhu_ekamuni _Friend Scott Duncan asked:_ >Is it that one has to achieve the ability to enter and remain in the second >jhana absorption permanently in order for this cessation to occur? Yes! >Or is it that while absorbed in the second jhana one experiences >the suppression of all mental frustration and sadness? Also Yes! Basically the second jhana suppresses mental frustration temporarily while one is absorbed, or permanently if one remains absorbed... _So too with these other states:_ In the 1st jhana, there all physical pain ceases... In the 2nd jhana, there all mental sadness ceases... In the 3rd jhana, there all physical pleasure ceases... In the 4th jhana, there all mental gladness ceases... In the ending of perception & feeling equanimity ceases... _Reference:_ The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V [213-4] The Abilities section 48. Thread on The Irregular Order: Uppatika 40 Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 54767 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:20am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 3, no.1. Chapter 3. Samatha and Vipassana. If one is disturbed by strong defilements it is most difficult to be aware of one¹s akusala cittas. Defilements prevent the arising of satipatthåna. Clinging to sense objects may be so strong, it can even motivate akusala kamma patha. Should one not develop calm first, so that insight can be developed afterwards with more ease? This is a question that is often asked, and in India this was also discussed. People of old saw the disadvantages of sense impressions. They knew that seeing is very often followed by attachment. Therefore they developed calm to the degree of absorption concentration, jhåna, so that they would be temporarily freed from sense impressions and the defilements arising on account of them. However, defilements are not eradicated by samatha. When one emerges from jhåna insight of all nåmas and rúpas is to be developed so that enlightenment can be attained. In the development of samatha paññå must be very keen so that it discerns precisely the different cetasikas that are jhånafactors which have to be developed, and, in order to reach the higher stages of jhåna, one has to know which are the coarser jhånafactors which have to be abandoned. A person must have accumulated great skill in order to attain jhåna. Paññå is necessary so that calm is developed in the right way. One has to know precisely when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta. If there is subtle clinging to calm, one may mislead oneself. We discussed in India whether there is a certain order of development of síla, samådhi and paññå. It seems that the texts of the suttas point in this direction. We read in the Mahåparinibbånasutta (Dialogues of the Buddha, no.16) that the Buddha repeatedly said: ³Such and such is síla, such and such is concentration, such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by síla. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration. Utterly freed from the intoxicants (aasavas) of Lust, of becoming and of ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom.² When one reads this text it seems that there has to be síla first, then concentration and then paññå. We discussed this with Acharn Sujin who said: ³Can síla and samådhi be fully developed without paññå?² The sotåpanna has fully developed síla, he cannot transgress the five precepts nor commit akusala kamma leading to an unhappy rebirth. The anågåmi has fully developed calm, he has eradicated all clinging to sense pleasures. Síla and samådhi become fully developed by paññå. ****** Nina. 54768 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 0:55am Subject: Makkata Sutta - Monkey Sutta leoaive SN XLVII.7 Makkata Sutta The Monkey "There are in the Himalayas, the king of mountains, difficult, uneven areas where neither monkeys nor human beings wander. There are difficult, uneven areas where monkeys wander, but not human beings. There are level stretches of land, delightful, where both monkeys and human beings wander. In such spots hunters set a tar trap in the monkeys' tracks, in order to catch some monkeys. Those monkeys who are not foolish or careless by nature, when they see the tar trap, will keep their distance. But any monkey who is foolish & careless by nature comes up to the tar trap and grabs it with its paw, which then gets stuck there. Thinking, 'I'll free my paw,' he grabs it with his other paw. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws,' he grabs it with his foot. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws and my foot,' he grabs it with his other foot. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws and my feet as well,' he grabs it with his mouth. That too gets stuck. So the monkey, snared in five ways, lies there whimpering, having fallen on misfortune, fallen on ruin, a prey to whatever the hunter wants to do with him. Then the hunter, without releasing the monkey, skewers him right there, picks him up, and goes off as he likes. "This is what happens to anyone who wanders into what is not his proper range and is the territory of others. "For this reason, you should not wander into what is not your proper range and is the territory of others. In one who wanders into what is not his proper range and is the territory of others, Mara gains an opening, Mara gains a foothold. And what, for a monk, is not his proper range and is the territory of others? The five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable by the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable by the ear... Aromas cognizable by the nose... Flavors cognizable by the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable by the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These, for a monk, are not his proper range and are the territory of others. "Wander, monks, in what is your proper range, your own ancestral territory. In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold. And what, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory? The four frames of reference. Which four? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings, … remains focused on mind, ... remains focused on mental objects — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory." 54769 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:02am Subject: RE: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) --pur... dacostacharles Hi Howard, I understand and thanks. It is always good to think fist. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Tuesday, 17 January, 2006 00:01 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na (Re: [dsg] Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5) --pur... Hi, Charles - It happens that no particular ideas or responses occur to me with regard to your last two posts to me on this thread. I'm writing just to let you know that I've definitely read them over and will think further about the content. (Please don't think I'm ignoring you. I'm not! :-) <...> 54770 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway dacostacharles Hi all, Sensory Processing in Parallel, and the One-door (i.e., Sequential Awareness) By sensory processing in parallel, we mean data collection and some storage in parallel. Each sense organ transmits its singles to the brain independent of each other. One sensory organ does not wait for the other organ to finish, nor does it wait a billionth of a second, to transmit its information. And, if you look at the sensed objects, you will find that they are a complex of multiple objects (i.e., compounded), some even pertaining to a different sense organs. By one-door, I mean the "gate to experiencing" what is at the senses, awareness. It is this awareness that is sequential. The more unfocused this awareness is, the more sensed objects appear to be uncompounded, even multiple object become process as one object. This is because before this awareness, there is a merging/integration of these inputs, and thereby compounding the sensed entities into one. For example, I see a box and hear a sound coming from the direction of the box. I assume the box is an electronic device. This view does lead to "understanding this moment" and hence to freedom because it provides details that are more accurate as to the nature of mind. It not only explains how sensed objects are perceived as one entity when in reality they are complexes of compounded entities. It also explains why you can sense an object, remember it clearly, and then with guidance find out that you sensed more then you thought. In my opinion, the Buddha did not talk about whether the senses work in parallel or sequential because to know the actual processes of sensing objects you would have to know anatomy and physiology. Therefore, this information would only be useful to the scientists (i.e., Abidharmists). Also, keep in mind that problems come into existence when there is attachment to any sensed object. This attachment requires both consciousness and awareness. If we look at these two things, consciousness and awareness, it would be natural to see them function (cling to sensed objects) in sequence, one object after another, and even multiple objects perceived as one. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nina van gorkom Sent: Tuesday, 17 January, 2006 16:44 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Psychology of Sa~n~na one doorway Hi Howard, op 16-01-2006 21:01 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > But such speech still leaves untouched the technical question of whether > parallel sense-door processing occurs. ------ N: Indeed a technical quuestion, and I do not quite get it! I do not see this in the Abhidhamma, paralel processing. As you also suggest, it is an abstract notion, it does not lead to understanding this moment, and hence not to freedom. You write: Yes, but in the suttas it has a specific meaning, quite unique, different from all other ways of speaking. It leads directly to the goal, it exhorts us not to be forgetful of what is right at hand. We are seeing and hearing at this moment and we are usually forgetful to investigate these dhammas. We do not see dhamma as dhamma, not belonging to anyone, not having a possessor. Nina. 54771 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Htoo Naing, I agree, but it seems that different people have different definitions (like that "self" concept). Some times these differences get in the way; however, I think as long as we remember the differences while posting, it will make it easier to understand others replies. NOW: You stated: "There is inner cycle in the whole cycle of D.O." I have been thinking about some thing very similar. I got an idea from the interpretation of the "12-links" spanning 3-life times. "May be it is only 1-life time but three interconnected cycles." The main cycle, birth--sickness--old age--death, talks about the physical body. And the rest talks about mental processes. I am still working on this interpretation. My goal is to show how many chains of causation can fit together while there is life, and we can jump from one chain to the other until we are at the point where our mental course is not so transient, arhatship. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Htoo Naing, I think people are questioning whether DO is, as you said, "Some dhamma originate from yet another dhamma. There is dependence. So it is called Dependent Origination." Or is it just the 12-links in a chain of causation. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, It is pa.ticcasamuppaada. Pa.ticca means 'depending on'. 12 links is just for clear visualisation. Dhamma is more complex and complicated than as intelligent scholars would think. Example is that 'vinnaana and naama-ruupa'. When the Buddha contemplated on that part there He found there is interdependent. There is inner cycle in the whole cycle of D.O. What we need to do is cut up the cycle. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54772 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Emptiness dacostacharles Hi TG, Yes, empty of a self that is... (you know the list). But is it empty of ego? You are right about those annoying most significant concerns! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta <....> Hi Charles All is unqualifiedly empty of self too. Also, read your remarks about sense/mind door operations and liked them. I would just add that the door that gets opened is the one that gets "knocked on" loudest. I.E. the most significant concern/impression at that time. TG 54773 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/17/06 9:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > "What you are pointing to accords with a pet theory of mine. The > theory is that there is parallel processing, via several sense doors, > but only one input rises to the level of "object" of conscousness. > This theory has the particular appeal of being in harmony with the > commentarial notion of rupas arising in a bundle, and also fitting in > with my phenomenalist perspective." > Howard > > Dear Howard, > > Wouldn't parallel processing require that one accept that more than > one citta can arise at once? Rupas arising as a bundle is one thing, > since a rupa has no capacity for consciousness. In this sense the > comparison would seem to me to like that between apples and oranges. > It is the citta which "perceives" rupa, as far as my understanding goes. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do follow you on this, and you are making good sense. My "theory" is a phenomenalist one that views the "stage" upon which all dhammas appear, ever, to be the "stage of experience." But much of the experience at any time is subliminal, with only one element of experience rising to the level of conscious awareness as "object". What Abhidhamma and the commentaries call a citta then would exclude all elements that are subliminal, for, though present on the "stage of mind", they are flying in "under the radar" as it were. What particular arising phenomenon becomes object in the moment is determined by a combination of prior and concurrently arising conditions, prominent among which are instances of kamma. Of course, this phenomenalist parallel-processing, rupic-bundle theory may well be wrong. There are several alternatives. One possiblity is that my phenomenalist presumptions are all wrong, and rupas may have "lives" independent of experience, both conscious and subliminal. Another is that the phenomenalist (experiential) perspective is still correct, but that kalipas (rupic bundles) occur sequentially, with all component rupas arising one after the other in some order, but not simultaneously. Another possibility, of course, is that the commentarial kalipa theory is, itself, not fully factual. Nina has reported that the four great elements of so called earth, air, fire, and water always arise together, and that they never do so alone, but that "four among the derived rupas always arise together with the four Great Elements in every group of rupas and are thus present wherever there is materiality, no matter whether rupas of the body or materiality outside the body. These four rupas are the following: visible object (or colour) odor flavour nutrition" I find this theory to be confusing, because it seems to mix ultimate and conventional notions in an odd way. What, for example, 'odor' and 'flavor' can mean at the ultimate rupic level is rather unclear to me. Are the Buddhist analogs to quarks phenomena that arise with odors and flavors? If real meaning is to be attached to this theory, then 'odor' and 'flavor' must name phenomena other than the odor and flavor of our everyday experience, phenomena that only share the same names by analogy. -------------------------------------------- > > The idea that a significant number of cittas can arise within a > significantly short period of time seems enough to cover the > contingency cited while remaining parsimonious. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. Well, here you seem to be opting for the experientialist-sequentialist rupic-bundle alternative, if I follow you. That, of course, could be the case. ---------------------------------------- Your suggestion, it> > would seem to me, involves adding a whole layer of concommittantly > arising cittas and would need some mechanism whereby the citta of > choice finds admittance as an object of consciousness, and a process > whereby the "sub-conscious" cadre of cittas somehow queue up and > remain "in place." I don't think this is consistent with the way I > have understood things. Which, of course, is not saying much at all. > What do you think? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not sure that any queueing up is required. They would all be there at the same time in the parallel-processing scheme, fleetingly, but all but one would be below the level of conscious awareness. (As an aside: That doesn't imply, however, that their subliminal presence doesn't serve as condition for future events.) ------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54774 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Scott, Charles, Nina, and all) - In a message dated 1/18/06 12:25:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, Scott, Charles, All, > > Each sense has to have some way of "interrupting" the current conscious > involvement/attention. Example: -- The "vibrations" from a new > dominant-audio-experience need to be able to "shut down" whatever mental > activities are taking > place in order to replace them with the new audio experience. Such > "vibrations" from any sense base need to have some sort of latent ability > to overcome > concurrent attentions. This may not be parallel processing, but there is > some measure of "stand by" alertness of all senses that simultaneously is > available pretty much all the time. > > I have no problem calling this "subconsciousness" in regard to all the > sense > faculties that are functional yet not currently an active operating > consciousness process. ------------------------------------------ Howard: This is interesting. I seem to recall a simile, either in the Abhidhamma or commentaries, of attention - I guess it was attention (or maybe consciousness) - being like a spider sitting in the middle of its web, waiting, and whenever the slightest vibration is transmitted across the web, the spider scurries over to consume the prey. -------------------------------------------- > > This may mean there is another layer of "subcittas" that don't come into > full consciousness because there is no attention being applied to them. > Attention being like a magnifying glass making the mind fully aware of that > > particular sense experience. Without attention, they can't stand up "on > their own." -------------------------------------------- Howard: And this could be either a sequential or a parallel model, I guess. ------------------------------------------- > > It may not be a subconsciousness...but nevertheless, a "non-processing > sense" has to have the ability to overcome a "processing sense." This > means > "sensitivity" and "sensitivity" to me would seem to mean consciousness. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I suppose that one could think of the cetasika of attention being a kind of highlighting (or selection) operation. ------------------------------------------- > > TG ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54775 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for another interesting sutta. Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon, Sarah, Sukinder, Nina (KenH, James and others) - > >We had several discussions (arguments or debates?) in the past on >noble disciple, sikkha (training), method of practice(patipada), jhana, >and satipatthana. Hopefully, this post may help us reach a few >conclusions --- or tie up a few loosed ends, so to speak. > > Yes, that would be nice ;-)) >The Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains that 'ariya' or 'ariya puggala' >means 'noble person': i.e. one who has attained the path(magga) or >fruition(phala) of the stream-winning, once-return, non-return, or the >arahant. Nyanatiloka also states that 'ariya-savaka' in "a restricted >sense" refers only to the 8 kinds of 'noble disciples'. However, MN >125 gives a different definition for 'ariyan disciple' (or noble disciple) as >follows. > >A Different Definition of 'Noble Disciple' >--------------------------------------------------------- > >"A householder or a householder's son ... goes forth from home into homelessness. To this extent, >Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple gets out into the open." > > Yes, I agree that in this sutta the term 'ariyan disciple' seems to refer to a person who is not yet enlightened. I think this is a rather exceptional usage (I think Nyanatiloka's entry sets out the standard usage). I don't know what the explanation is in the present case. Do you see any particular significance in this reference? >Training in Steps >------------------------ > >Tep: MN 125 is one of the suttas that state very clearly (no >interpretations are necessary) about the way the Buddha taught the >monks to train themselves in the step by step fashion. [Sequential, >not 'all together' or 'in any order'] > > As I read it, MN 125 sets out the general order of training given by the Buddha to certain (not all) monks who were capable of developing both samatha and vipassana to very high levels. Just a couple of comments. (1) I think the time span involved would vary greatly depending on the susceptibility of the individual. For some the whole training may be compressed into a single occasion, for others it may take years. (2) I do not read the Buddha as laying down here a fixed order of practice for the development of insight and attainment of enlightenment. He is not saying, 'If you want to attain enlightenment, here is what you should do and the order in which you should do it'. He is saying that for some the development of the path to enlightenment follows this pattern. I do not see them as 'steps'. For others the development of the path will not follow that pattern (there are of course numerous instances in the suttas of individuals attaining enlightenment in circumstances that do not match any of the 'steps' in MN 125). >Step1. "But, Aggivessana, devas and mankind have this longing, that >is to say, for the five strands of sense-pleasures. The Tathagata >disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be moral, live >controlled by the control of the Obligations, possessed of [right] >behavior and posture, seeing danger in the slightest faults; undertaking >them, train yourself in the rules of training.' > >... > >First Jhana and Satipatthana >------------------------------------------ > >Tep: MN 125 makes it clear that the noble disciple who has >successfully trained himself to Step5 will attain the first jhana in the next >step. This step is clearly the "formal" meditation practice!! > > Note that the exhortation to chose a remote lodging is given only after mindfulness of clear consciousness (sati sampajanna?) has been developed to a high degree, is well established. >Step6: "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is possessed of >mindfulness and clear consciousness, then the Tathagata disciplines >him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a >forest, at the root of a tree, ... > >Step7: "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, >monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply >yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along >contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... >mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of >thought connected with mental states.' > >"He ... enters on and abides in the second meditation ... in the fourth meditation ... > > >Tep: So it is crystally clear how the four jhanas(samma-samadhi) are >built upon samma-sati. What is your thought? > > This passage seems to describe the development of the jhanas by a monk who is also developing insight. Again, I would not see the passage as laying down a necessary path or order of practice, but of describing a set of circumstances that applied to a large number of followers in the time of the Buddha. Yes, I would agree that samma-samadhi of the NEP is built on samma-sati. But while I would agree that samma-samadhi of the NEP is defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, I do not think this is same as saying that the 4 jhanas are samma-samadhi. Thanks for the chance to consider the sutta (but no loose ends tied up yet, I'm afraid ;-)) Jon 54776 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > Hi Joop, Christine, All, > > These quotes should end any debate on the Buddha's outlook on Self. Hallo TG Thanks, but I'm not sure this ends all discussions. The Dalai Lama was not correct; but what do Theravadins know about Mahayana? If they are interested at all. If you are interested in the differences Theravada - Mahayana (there are of course also many aspects they have in common), look at: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot02.htm http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/fastfacts/differences_theravada_ mahayana.htm http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha125.htm Don't you think that the quote of MN of you means that all concepts (pannatti) like "the world" are empty? Metta Joop 54777 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles TGrand458@... Hi Joop All things are not self. No exceptions. Whether something is considered a "reality" or not doesn't change the fact that -- all things are not self. If something isn't real, then its not even a "thing," much less a self. TG In a message dated 1/18/2006 7:58:58 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > Hi Joop, Christine, All, > > These quotes should end any debate on the Buddha's outlook on Self. Hallo TG Thanks, but I'm not sure this ends all discussions. The Dalai Lama was not correct; but what do Theravadins know about Mahayana? If they are interested at all. If you are interested in the differences Theravada - Mahayana (there are of course also many aspects they have in common), look at: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot02.htm http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/fastfacts/differences_theravada_ mahayana.htm http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha125.htm Don't you think that the quote of MN of you means that all concepts (pannatti) like "the world" are empty? Metta Joop 54778 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/18/2006 5:08:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: Hi TG, Yes, empty of a self that is... (you know the list). But is it empty of ego? You are right about those annoying most significant concerns! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta Hi Charles Regarding above, I think its a test. Ego is the "sense-of-self" which means it is delusion and an actual state. This actual state is also conditioned, empty, and selfless. BTW, liked your mental model in today's post. Looks solid to me. (Now you know you're in trouble.) TG 54779 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. nilovg Hi Howard, You remembered well those kalapas! I am just thinking whether I can add something. op 18-01-2006 13:30 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Nina has > reported that the four great elements of so called earth, air, fire, and water > always arise together, and that they never do so alone, but that "four among > the > derived rupas always arise together with the four Great Elements in every > group > of rupas and are thus present wherever there is materiality, no matter whether > rupas of the body or materiality outside the body. These four rupas are the > following: > visible object (or colour) > odor > flavour > nutrition" > I find this theory to be confusing, because it seems to mix ultimate > and conventional notions in an odd way. What, for example, 'odor' and 'flavor' > can mean at the ultimate rupic level is rather unclear to me. Are the Buddhist > analogs to quarks phenomena that arise with odors and flavors? If real > meaning is to be attached to this theory, then 'odor' and 'flavor' must name > phenomena other than the odor and flavor of our everyday experience, phenomena > that > only share the same names by analogy. ------ N: Odour and flavour can be experienced in daily life. They do not belong to us, they are dhammas, arisen because of their appropriate conditions. It is not all that complicated! No need to think of quarks or whatever that means. The rupa that is flavour is supported by the other rupas arising in a group. These condition it by way of conascence. Flavour is the object of citta that tastes, tasting-consciousness, and this is vipaakacitta, produced by kamma. It depends on kusala kamma or akusala kamma whether we taste today delicious flavours or loathsome flavours. It is beyond control! In a little while you may have lunch, and then you can check. The Buddha reminds us to be mindful also while eating, chewing etc. Hardness or motion appears while chewing, these are rupas. Not a self is eating or chewing. Is there any problem here? Nina. 54780 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles christine_fo... Hello Sebastien, Joop, Scott, TG, all, Just to add a little more - a dhamma friend Namdrol (who holds the Loppon degree in the Sakya School of Tibetan Buddhism) gave this brief reply to my surprise at the quote from the Dalai Lama directly below: ". . . A principal difference between the Individual Vehicle and the Universal Vehicle exists in their view on the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness and the scope of its application. The Individual Vehicle expounds the view of selflessness only in relation to person and personal identity but not in relation to things and events in general, whereas the Universal Vehicle, the principle of selflessness is not confined to the limited scope of the person but encompasses the entire spectrum of existence, all phenomena. In other words, the Universal Vehicle system understands selflessness as a universal principle. Interpreted in this way, the principle of selflessness acquires greater profundity." Namdrol: "Because in general, Sarvastivada and other schools, even late Theravada [i.e. Buddhasghosa], proposed atoms as paramarthas, ultimate objects. Madhyamaka does not accept any phenomena at all which can be labeled as paramartha. From the Madhyamaka the standard list of dharmas called paramarthas in Theravada, etc., are all relative and not irreducible." I'd appreciate any further comments and clarification. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54781 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (RePleasedon'trunaway yet, DAN 1.ii) mlnease Hi Larry, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] On Number 10 :Nitpicking the Nitpicking (RePleasedon'trunaway yet, DAN 1.ii) Thanks for taking the time for the Vism. quote and for the other references. Is there anything specific in any of these you'd like to discuss further? mike 54782 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles TGrand458@... Hi Christine Being that the Dalai Lama's quote is an exerpt, I'm not sure its full context. My initial reaction to it was quite negative, but if he is in conjunction with Namdrol's quote below, he may have somewhat of a point. I don't like his use of the term vehicle though. The second quote by Namdrol does make sense to me. My friend/teacher, an elder well educated Theravadin monk from Sri Lanka believes Nagajuna's teaching was designed to counter threads of self-view that were springing up in various schools of Buddhism. I agree with the outlook regarding "Paramatthas" is dangerously close to, if not bound to, self-view. In reality, there are no "individual states" that are realities in and of themselves. Although Namdrol is attributing the paramattha idea to Theravadin; that's overreaching. It should be attributed only to Abhidhamma commentarial thought as far as I know. Saying that all Theravadin believes in paramattha dhammas; is like saying all Mahayanists chant -- nam yo ho ren ge kyo -- to achieve their desires. However, Namdrol does qualify his statement to -- Theravadins dealing with the paramattha idea and therefore I think his statement is reasonably correct and honest. I think both the Dalai Lama and Namdrol cannot understand how something can be a paramattha dhamma and still not be considered self. I frankly cannot understand it either. That's why I sometimes speak against the paramattha dhamma notion. Nevertheless, both the Dalai Lama and Namdrol seem to assume that paramattha dhamma adherents believe in self view. We have many in this group who do subscribe to the idea of paramattha dhammas, but I don't believe many, if any, of them believe that they believe in self view. (That's a hell of a sentence. ;-) ) The way I read the Suttas, I understand them to be more in accordance with Namdrol's statements then with the paramattha dhamma notion. This means that Madhyamika is not proposing anything new, just trying to get back on track with Sutta ideas. I would criticize Madhyamika in that it argues "no-self" in a philosophical way while the Buddha did it in the Suttas much more pragmatically. TG In a message dated 1/18/2006 11:52:51 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello Sebastien, Joop, Scott, TG, all, Just to add a little more - a dhamma friend Namdrol (who holds the Loppon degree in the Sakya School of Tibetan Buddhism) gave this brief reply to my surprise at the quote from the Dalai Lama directly below: ". . . A principal difference between the Individual Vehicle and the Universal Vehicle exists in their view on the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness and the scope of its application. The Individual Vehicle expounds the view of selflessness only in relation to person and personal identity but not in relation to things and events in general, whereas the Universal Vehicle, the principle of selflessness is not confined to the limited scope of the person but encompasses the entire spectrum of existence, all phenomena. In other words, the Universal Vehicle system understands selflessness as a universal principle. Interpreted in this way, the principle of selflessness acquires greater profundity." Namdrol: "Because in general, Sarvastivada and other schools, even late Theravada [i.e. Buddhasghosa], proposed atoms as paramarthas, ultimate objects. Madhyamaka does not accept any phenomena at all which can be labeled as paramartha. From the Madhyamaka the standard list of dharmas called paramarthas in Theravada, etc., are all relative and not irreducible." I'd appreciate any further comments and clarification. metta Chris 54783 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/18/06 11:36:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: Odour and flavour can be experienced in daily life. They do not belong > to > us, they are dhammas, arisen because of their appropriate conditions. It is > not all that complicated! No need to think of quarks or whatever that means. > The rupa that is flavour is supported by the other rupas arising in a group. > These condition it by way of conascence. Flavour is the object of citta that > tastes, tasting-consciousness, and this is vipaakacitta, produced by kamma. > It depends on kusala kamma or akusala kamma whether we taste today delicious > flavours or loathsome flavours. It is beyond control! > In a little while you may have lunch, and then you can check. The Buddha > reminds us to be mindful also while eating, chewing etc. Hardness or motion > appears while chewing, these are rupas. Not a self is eating or chewing. > Is there any problem here? > =========================== Well, I'm not sure. What is the flavor of air? And is it so that in all realms of existence, including all those corresponding to the rupa jhanas, odor and flavor arise? It's not all so clear to me! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54784 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (and Htoo)- I appreciate your attention (to MN 125) that clearly shows in your message. > Jon: > Thanks for another interesting sutta. > ... ... > Jon: > Thanks for the chance to consider the sutta (but no loose ends tied > up yet, I'm afraid ;-)) > Tep: By reading more, reflecting more, and practicing the eightfold Path, the loosed ends will all disappear one day -- the same way the self-belief(atta ditthi) would. (:->|} ............... >Jon: > > Do you see any particular significance in this reference? > Tep: I am glad you asked (I was expecting the same question from Htoo, who is an expert in concentration). Yes, I do. Indeed, I see four things of significance : 1. Any householder who has heard (studied and "give ear" to) the Dhamma, has gained an unshaken saddha in the 'Tathagata'. He is endowed with this superior saddha and clearly sees dangers of the household life. He then decides to "go forth from home into homelessness", i.e. become a Buddhist monk. According to this sutta, such a monk, who is endowed with such saddha in the Buddha and his Teachings and the right view about the household life's dangers, deserves the title "ariyan disciple" (ariya-savakka). 2. This sutta states very clearly (no interpretations are necessary for Buddhists with saddha in the Buddha's Teachings) how the Buddha taught his monks to train themselves in the step-by-step fashion [i.e. sequential, not 'all together' or 'in any order'], starting from the rules of training(Dhamma Vinaya), Patimokkha Sila and indriya-samvara. 3. The four foundations of mindfulness are to be started after the monk has the mastery over guarding his "doors of the sense-organs", and has practiced being moderate in eating, and abiding intent on vigilance with clear consciousness (sampajanna). This satipatthana practice will enable him with the first jhana that is free from the five hindrances. 4. To progress further to the 2nd jhana the monk will have to abandon vitaka & vicara according to the following Buddha's advice : 'Come you, monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with mental states.' I understand that you mostly(as usual)disagree with me. So let other people read MN 125 and decides for themselves what they want to believe. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (snipped) > > Yes, I agree that in this sutta the term 'ariyan disciple' seems to > refer to a person who is not yet enlightened. I think this is a rather > exceptional usage (I think Nyanatiloka's entry sets out the standard > usage). I don't know what the explanation is in the present case. (snipped) 54785 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 0:44pm Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] htootintnaing Dear Tep, There are four types of question and they have to be answered in four ways. You have asked what particulary attracted me and I answered 'For me not.' Because it was not. Your posts are very good when they are checked with investigative mind. And the questions that you raised are all investigative questions. With regards, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Htoo - > > Sometimes, your answer led me to more questions. This is one of such > occasions. > > > Htoo: > > Thanks for your question. You asked whether in 'in certain way'. > > For me not. But for others I think they should investigate. > > That is why I asked your permission to post it in other lists. I > > have posted it after receiving your permission. I acknowledge it as > > 'it is posted at DSG by a DSG member Tep'. Thanks for your > > communication. > > > > But, this time I'd rather not ask further questions! (:->|} > > > Yours truly, > > > Tep > > ======= > 54786 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination htootintnaing Dear Charles, I agree. Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I agree, but it seems that different people have different definitions (like > that "self" concept). Some times these differences get in the way; however, > I think as long as we remember the differences while posting, it will make > it easier to understand others replies. > > NOW: > You stated: "There is inner cycle in the whole cycle of D.O." > > I have been thinking about some thing very similar. I got an idea from the > interpretation of the "12-links" spanning 3-life times. > "May be it is only 1-life time but three interconnected cycles." > > The main cycle, birth--sickness--old age--death, talks about the physical > body. And the rest talks about mental processes. I am still working on this > interpretation. My goal is to show how many chains of causation can fit > together while there is life, and we can jump from one chain to the other > until we are at the point where our mental course is not so transient, > arhatship. > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > > -----Original Message----- > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I think people are questioning whether DO is, as you said, "Some dhamma > originate from yet another dhamma. There is dependence. So it is called > Dependent Origination." Or is it just the 12-links in a chain of > causation. > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Dear Charles, > > It is pa.ticcasamuppaada. Pa.ticca means 'depending on'. 12 links is > just for clear visualisation. > > Dhamma is more complex and complicated than as intelligent scholars > would think. > > Example is that 'vinnaana and naama-ruupa'. When the Buddha > contemplated on that part there He found there is interdependent. > > There is inner cycle in the whole cycle of D.O. > > What we need to do is cut up the cycle. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 54787 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Chris) - In a message dated 1/18/06 3:29:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > I agree with the outlook regarding "Paramatthas" is dangerously close to, > if > not bound to, self-view. In reality, there are no "individual states" that > > are realities in and of themselves. Although Namdrol is attributing the > paramattha idea to Theravadin; that's overreaching. It should be > attributed only > to Abhidhamma commentarial thought as far as I know. Saying that all > Theravadin believes in paramattha dhammas; is like saying all Mahayanists > chant -- > nam yo ho ren ge kyo -- to achieve their desires. However, Namdrol does > qualify his statement to -- Theravadins dealing with the paramattha idea > and > therefore I think his statement is reasonably correct and honest. > ========================= I think that the sammati vs paramattha distinction is a valid one. And pragmatically I see it as medicine for the illness of taking conventional objects as real. But that is just a first step, in my opinion. If one goes on to treat paramattha dhammas as separate, self-existent entities - that is, if one reifies them, then one has simply moved on to a slightly more favorable position but is still in the wrong. Paramattha dhammas are also empty. They lack identity, and are empty of themselves! They have no independent, separate existence or status whatsoever, depending entirely for their fleeting existence on prior and co-arising conditions, all of which are equally empty of core. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54788 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:16pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 629 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Avijjaa paccayaa sa`nkhaaraa. Ignorance conditions formation. What are these formations. They are unwholesome formation (apu~n~naabhisa`nkhaara), wholesome formation (pu~n~naabhisa`nkhaara), and ane~njaabhisankhaara. Apunnaabhisankhaara is akusala. Punnaabhisankhara is kusala. In this kusala there are kaama-kusala or sensuous wholesomeness and ruupa-kusala or fine-material wholesomeness. Anenjaabhisankhaara is formation that produces aruupa jhaana. It is quite evident that when one commit akusala there does exist ignorance. Because ignorance is always always the leader of all akusala. Again when one does kusala like kaama-kusala there also exist avijjaa. But here we need to look into the matter more deeply. Because when kusala are done there is no moha. But when we do kusala like kaama-kusala of offering etc do we know suffering, cause of suffering, cessation of suffering and the path leading to cessation of suffering? No, not really. This is avijjaa. There is no moha at the time when we are doing kusala. Because kusala can never co-exist with akusala. That is moha cetasika cannot co- arise with sati and other kusala cetasika. When we do kusala we all have sati. Without sati there will not be any kusala. But when we are doing kusala and having sati, do we know all four Noble Truths? No, never. Those who know Noble Truths will not do kaama-kusala or ruupa-kusala or aruupa-kusala. But one possibility is that those who are exactly seeing nibbana while at the same time seeing suffering, while at the same time eliminate the cause of suffering and while at the same time developing the Path are doing kusala. But this is lokuttaraa-kusala. This is the last kusala if it is arahatta magga kusala. Because after arahatta magga kusala there always follow arahatta vipaaka which is arahatta phala citta. As soon as one becomes an arahat he or she will not do any apunnaabhisankhara, punnaabhisankhaara, and anenjaabhisankhaara. One may say that arahats may do kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara, and mano- sankhaara. If this is sankhaara or formation then there has to arise further kamma. But the actions of arahats are all just actions and they are just functional. There will not be any kamma effect whatever their actions are kaaya or vacii or mano. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54789 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:49pm Subject: Re: Noble disciple, jhanas, and satipatthana [MN 125] ... Investigation buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (and Jon)- Thank you much for the very good answer (below) that shows your clear understanding of 'investigation of states' (dhammavicaya). 'Bhikkhus, there are profitable and unprofitable states, reprehensible and blameless states, inferior and superior states, dark and bright states the counterpart of each other. Wise attention much practiced therein is the nutriment for the arising of the un-arisen investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, or leads to the growth, fulfilment, development and perfection of the arisen investigation-of-states enlightenment factor'. [Vism. IV, 52] >Htoo: > > There are four types of question and they have to be answered in > four ways. You have asked what particulary attracted me and I > answered 'For me not.' Because it was not. Your posts are very good > when they are checked with investigative mind. And the questions > that you raised are all investigative questions. > Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, (snipped) > With regards, > > Htoo Naing > (snipped) 54790 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 1/18/2006 2:10:52 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I think that the sammati vs paramattha distinction is a valid one. And pragmatically I see it as medicine for the illness of taking conventional objects as real. But that is just a first step, in my opinion. If one goes on to treat paramattha dhammas as separate, self-existent entities - that is, if one reifies them, then one has simply moved on to a slightly more favorable position but is still in the wrong. Paramattha dhammas are also empty. They lack identity, and are empty of themselves! They have no independent, separate existence or status whatsoever, depending entirely for their fleeting existence on prior and co-arising conditions, all of which are equally empty of core. With metta, Howard I agree with your statement almost perfectly with slight reservations to your first sentence. I don't see how replacing one wrong idea with another wrong idea is useful unless the second, more refined, wrong idea is made clear to be a wrong idea. (Basically your point as well.) Problem is, the teaching of paramattha is taught as the right idea. Even the Buddha's teaching as found in the Four Great Nikayas, as flawless as it is, is meant to be discarded for those who master it. Simile of the Raft. I'm not sure how a mind that believes in ultimate realities can muster the courage to discard what is "ultimately real." Just way too attachment and self oriented an idea for my taste. TG 54791 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:28pm Subject: Re: Tep (2) buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - The best way to answer this "Tep(2)" message is to address your questions at the conclusion. >S: >We would like to have perfect virtue and to always be good, but unless we really see the danger in harmful thoughts, speech and action, is it possible? Isn't by really considering the teachings deeply and beginning to follow the path that gradually we come to really appreciate what is good and what is bad and the reasons for the Buddha's reminders? In particular, I'd say, that it's by understanding all dhammas as mere dhammas, not as mine or yours, that there is a growing detachment to what is conditioned with understanding. This is the way that the tenacious grip of lobha can gradually be seen for what it is – the cause of all dukkha. Being attached to being a good person and having aversion to unwholesome states when they arise is not the way to develop detachment and to follow the path, as I see it. Tep: What you say above sounds practical except that "by understanding all dhammas as mere dhammas, not as mine or yours, that there is a growing detachment to what is conditioned with understanding" is too advanced. I believe, first of all, we must develop an action plan about how the Noble Eightfold Path may be practiced. Once we have made a significant progress in the Noble Eightfold Path, we will gradually and finally see things (the 'All', or the five aggregates, or the rupa & nama) the way they really are. One such action plan is given below. With the sensing media successfully restraint (indiya-samvara), one practices to abandon the three misconducts and develops the three good conducts in all daily activities. This 'indiya-samvara' is guided by the (mundane) right view about kusala/akusala and their roots, and it is firmly supported by an unshaken saddha in the Buddha. Such a right view is explained in MN 9: "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". With that kind of right view, i.e. clear understanding of wholesome & unwholesome etc., whatever action one has it becomes skillful, according to MN 117: 'In one of right view, wrong view is abolished. The many evil, unskillful qualities that come into play with wrong view as their condition are also abolished, while the many skillful qualities that have right view as their condition go to the culmination of their development'. Hence right view, right effort and right mindfulness together help develop higher right view, and a right thought (samma-sankappo) follows. This right thought is developed further by the virtues of the more developed right view, right mindfulness and right effort -- running in circle, round and round. One will eventually abandon unwholesome thoughts of greed & lust, aversion & hate, and cruelty(harmful thought). Similarly, samma-kammanto and right livelihood are fully developed. One's conducts become good conducts. With the three good conducts fully developed (i.e. perfect sila), right mindfulness is fulfilled in the present moment. This fact is given by SN 46.6: Kundliya Sutta. "Here, Kundaliya, having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness.". At this point the first seven factors of the Eightfold path are matured(fulfilled). But, how does samma samadhi arise after the seven path factors are fulfilled? MN 117 tells us this: 'In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration...' So the seven path factors supports right concentration; yet, there is more to be done before samma-samadhi of the ariyans can arise. I think the description of right concentration in several suttas (one of which is DN 22) shows that samma-samadhi is fully developed as follows . (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." Please notice that, based on my explanation above, the first seven Path factors are implied by "quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities". Of course, you will disagree with me. (:>)} Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Continuing.... > > 5. In #53568, you were discussing hiri and ottappa (shame and remorse or `conscience & concern' as given in translation of a sutta – I think the latter translation for them is rather good.....shame & remorse always sounds too much like a kind of dosa (aversion) to me). You ask about the development of these important qualities and say they cannot just arise from "accumulation". Again, I think that the development of all wholesome qualities and especially understanding and awareness of these is very important. According to the Abhidhamma, hiri and ottappa arise with all wholesome cittas. So when there is dana, sila or bhavana, there is `conscience and concern'. When there is attachment, aversion or ignorance of any kind, there is no conscience, no concern. I think we can learn to see the difference between the varying states, such as metta and attachment. No hiri or ottappa with the latter. > ..... > 6. In #53575 (to me), you question whether the Buddha's teachings were really about paramattha dhammas rather than the 4NT and `other related bodhipakkhiya dhammas'. Let me stress that these ARE all paramattha dhammas. You go on to say that `the ultimate realities are just concepts' and that the suttas teach the Eightfold Path. You kindly ask me to say if I disagree, so I am! > > The first NT is dukkha, the characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. Conditioned dhammas are cittas, cetasikas and rupas – all paramattha dhammas. Not concepts. > > The second NT is tanha or lobha cetasika (attachment) – a paramattha > dhamma. The third NT is the cessation of dukkha or nibbana – another paramattha dhamma > > Finally, the fourth NT is the eightfold path – each cetasikas, each > paramattha dhammas to be developed. > > ..... > Tep, all that exists at this moment are paramattha dhammas – cittas, > cetasikas and rupas. It is the understanding of these dhammas, leading to the understanding of these dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, that is the only way. > > We use concepts to talk about presently arising dhammas such as seeing, hearing, like and dislike – but they are concepts pointing to realities, as opposed to concepts pointing to imaginary objects, such as when we talk about tables and chairs. > .... > 7. In #53575 you ask what level of understanding I'm referring to when I say that discipline with understanding leads to restraint. I can only say that the more right understanding developed, the higher the degree of restraint. The restraint or guarding of a sotapanna is higher than that of a worldling following the path. That's why only a sotapanna has developed higher virtue. You go on to say that `it is obvious that we must have certain `understanding' to guide any activity (seeing.....writing, reading) otherwise we cannot perform any human's function.' With respect, Tep, the kind of conventional understanding we're used to referring to (and which a child learns) has nothing to do with the right understanding of realities which the Buddha taught. > .... > 8. In the same post you ask about the level of understanding the noble disciple is assumed to have and whether it's the same as the `full understanding that eradicates all defilements'. Without having developed > that `full understanding' and all prior stages of insight which you've quoted before, there cannot be any `noble disciple'. Of course, the wisdom of the magga cittas which eradicate defilements only arises at such moments of lokuttara cittas taking nibbana as object. In between such path moments, the noble disciple continues to develop satipatthana without any doubts about namas and rupas being the `all' experienced. > .... > 9. Finally, in the same post, you refer to mention of `new monks'. The path is the same for all – one eightfold path, whether for worldlings or ariyans. It has to develop. It leads to the `establishment' of the path factors. Isn't it the same for us – being encouraged to be virtuous, restrained and to develop right view? (snipped) 54792 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:24pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 216, 217 and Tiika. gazita2002 Hello Nina and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > > Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 216, 217 > > Intro to Vis. 216: In this section three reasons have been given why there > are five khandhas. > The first reason is explained in section 217, and the second and third in > the following sections. ....snip..... > N: , in Pali: sabbasa²nkhata, all conditioned dhammas. > The dhammas that are classified as khandhas arise because of their > appropriate conditions. They arise and fall away. > --------- > Text Tiika: Herein, it is the items that are the same owing to the sameness > consisting respectively in "molesting", etc., that are to be understood as > "similar". > ------- > N: All ruupas are grouped into the ruupa-khandha. They are the dhammas that > do not experience anything. The commentary applies a word association of > ruupa and ruppana, molesting. > > We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha:²That which is afflicted > (ruppati) is materiality (ruupa); that which comes to or is brought to > change (vikaara) as a result of such opposing conditions as cold and heat' > is what is meant.² > If there were no ruupa that is bodysense, there would not be affliction by > heat, cold, hunger, flies, etc. Azita: not only the word 'afflicted' but now also the word 'molested', have me very baffled/confused :-). How is molesting related to similar? could we say that not all rupa is afflicted, only the rupa that is bodysense because of heat,thirst and mozzies - in my case - in the mozzie infested tropics! thank you in advance, Nina. I know you are very busy these days. maybe these answers can be left til I'm in Bkk. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 54793 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections for Tep2 .. Full Reply buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and James - I just posted a message that addressed only the conclusion part of your post. In this message I am going to directly reply to each item (#5 - #9). >S: > 5. In #53568, you were discussing hiri and ottappa (shame and remorse or `conscience & concern' as given in translation of a sutta – I think the latter translation for them is rather good.....shame & remorse always sounds too much like a kind of dosa (aversion) to me). You ask about the development of these important qualities and say they cannot just arise from "accumulation". Again, I think that the development of all wholesome qualities and especially understanding and awareness of these is very important. According to the Abhidhamma, hiri and ottappa arise with all wholesome cittas. So when there is dana, sila or bhavana, there is `conscience and concern'. When there is attachment, aversion or ignorance of any kind, there is no conscience, no concern. I think we can learn to see the difference between the varying states, such as metta and attachment. Tep: It is not imaginable to me that you think of 'shame & remorse' as "a kind of dosa (aversion)". Shame and remorse are much more effective than `conscience & concern' for stopping one from repeating the same akusala. Hiri and ottappa are requisites for the purification of virtues. People without hiri and ottappa cannot be purified. ................. >S: > 6. In #53575 (to me), you question whether the Buddha's teachings were really about paramattha dhammas rather than the 4NT and `other related bodhipakkhiya dhammas'. Let me stress that these ARE all paramattha dhammas. You go on to say that `the ultimate realities are just concepts' and that the suttas teach the Eightfold Path. You kindly ask me to say if I disagree, so I am! > Tep: The Buddha himself said that he only taught about dukkha, its origination, its cessation, and the practice for its cessation. I understand that the paramattha dhammas as given in the Abhidhamma-pitaka are detailed definitions and principles of the Teachings, i.e. concepts. These details may be important for scholars or thinkers, but those details are not known to be very useful for practitioners. The least useful of all is the nano-second rapidity of the paramatthadhamma. The Buddha never taught those details. For example, rupas ... vinnana (khandhas) are presented in the suttas as follows: The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates? "Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form. ... ... "Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of consciousness.' [SN XXII:48] .............................. >S: > The first NT is dukkha, the characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. Conditioned dhammas are cittas, cetasikas and rupas – all paramattha dhammas. Not concepts. The second NT is tanha or lobha cetasika (attachment) – a paramattha dhamma The third NT is the cessation of dukkha or nibbana – another paramattha dhamma. Finally, the fourth NT is the eightfold path – each cetasikas, each paramattha dhammas to be developed. > Tep: What you did was marking the concept/definition/ or principles of the Teachings with the paramattha labels. Of course the concepts and principles of the paramattha dhammas (except the nano-second theory) are correct. But the truth is that they are just concepts in the sense of definitions and principles (I did not mean 'panatti'), that are used as supplementary to the sutta-pitaka. You don't become an ariyan only by reading and talking about the paramattha-dhamma. You don't become a heart surgeon by reading, writing, and talking about the principles of heart surgeries. .......................... >S: > 7. In #53575 you ask what level of understanding I'm referring to when I say that discipline with understanding leads to restraint. I can only say that the more right understanding developed, the higher the degree of restraint. The restraint or guarding of a sotapanna is higher than that of a worldling following the path. That's why only a sotapanna has developed higher virtue. You go on to say that `it is obvious that we must have certain `understanding' to guide any activity (seeing.....writing, reading) otherwise we cannot perform any human's function.' With respect, Tep, the kind of conventional understanding we're used to referring to (and which a child learns) has nothing to do with the right understanding of realities which the Buddha taught. Tep: What you seem to say is that you were blessed with the "right understanding of realities which the Buddha taught" from the beginning. But how did you start at the "right understanding of realities which the Buddha taught" without perfect sila as a requisite condition? (A sotapanna has perfect sila.) I already described the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path in another post (#54791). It starts with the knowledge of wholesome/unwholesome plus strong saddha in the Buddha (a "right view" in MN 9) as requisite conditions for developing perfect sila (Patimokkha and indriya-samvara sila) and then satipatthana that leads to right concentration. (Please also study MN 125.) And we all know that right concentration is the requisite condition for the "right understanding of realities which the Buddha taught". ....................... >S: > 8. In the same post you ask about the level of understanding the noble disciple is assumed to have and whether it's the same as the `full understanding that eradicates all defilements'. Without having developed that `full understanding' and all prior stages of insight which you've quoted before, there cannot be any `noble disciple'. Tep: There are several levels of noble disciple. Also, please study MN 125 as another case of noble disciple. >S: Of course, the wisdom of the magga cittas which eradicate defilements only arises at such moments of lokuttara cittas taking nibbana as object. In between such path moments, the noble disciple continues to develop satipatthana without any doubts about namas and rupas being the `all' experienced. Tep: Yes, I have read that in the Visuddhimagga too. But you have not answered my question by refering to that. The reason I asked about the level of understanding was because I did not know what kind of "right understanding" you were referring to in that post (i.e. it was confusing.) ................. >S: > > 9. Finally, in the same post, you refer to mention of `new monks'. The path is the same for all – one eightfold path, whether for worldlings or ariyans. It has to develop. It leads to the `establishment' of the path factors. Isn't it the same for us – being encouraged to be virtuous, restrained and to develop right view? > Tep: I disagree with your tricky reasoning above. Your reply above just sidestepped my question. Why did you not simply say it was right, when it was right? Read the sutta again, please. :-)) > > "Ananda, the new monks — those who have not long gone forth, who are newcomers in this Dhamma & Discipline — should be encouraged, exhorted, and established in these five things. Which five? 'Come, friends, be virtuous. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in your behavior & sphere of activity. Train yourselves, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in restraint in accordance with the Patimokkha. ... ... 'Come, friends, develop right view. Be endowed with right vision.' Thus they should be encouraged, exhorted, & established in right vision. [end quote] > >Tep: The Patimokkha and training rules (Vinaya) must come first. Why? Just ask yourself : Can a person's restraint of the sense faculties be perfect, IF there are lackings in the Patimokkha Sila and failures in seeing danger in the slightest faults? Can the person guard his/her sense faculties with mindfulness when his/her morality is sloppy? Placing limit of one's conversation is successful only after he/she has developed good restraint of the senses that are well protected by mindfulness. Right view and right vision cannot be developed when the person has not had well-developed mindfulness and protected and restrained senses. ................ Tep: Now I understand fully why James was mad at the way you answered his questions ! Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Continuing.... > No hiri or ottappa with the latter. > ..... > ..... > Tep, all that exists at this moment are paramattha dhammas – cittas, > cetasikas and rupas. It is the understanding of these dhammas, leading to > the understanding of these dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, that is > the only way. > > We use concepts to talk about presently arising dhammas such as seeing, > hearing, like and dislike – but they are concepts pointing to realities, > as opposed to concepts pointing to imaginary objects, such as when we talk > about tables and chairs. > .... > .... > .... (snipped) 54794 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:44pm Subject: Re: Ending all Sadness, Frustration other states ... scottduncan2 - Yes! > > Also Yes! > > Basically the second jhana suppresses mental frustration temporarily > while one is absorbed, or permanently if one remains absorbed... > > _So too with these other states:_ > In the 1st jhana, there all physical pain ceases... > In the 2nd jhana, there all mental sadness ceases... > In the 3rd jhana, there all physical pleasure ceases... > In the 4th jhana, there all mental gladness ceases... > In the ending of perception & feeling equanimity ceases... > Venerable Samahita, Thank you very much for your kind response. The impact: An increased desire to strive for absorption, which by the way I am very new to learning. Sincerely, Scott. 54795 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing scottduncan2 Howard: "My "theory" is a phenomenalist one that views the "stage" upon which all dhammas appear, ever, to be the "stage of experience." ----- S: I'm not sure I follow this, Howard. All dhammas - past,present, and future - appear on the "stage of experience?" Since you include "experience" are you referring to citta? Or "person?" I guess I'm wondering about point of view. ----- But much of the experience at any time is subliminal, with only one element of experience rising to the level of conscious awareness as "object". ----- S: Okay, so you are referring to conscious awareness then. Are you speaking about a continuity of experience? Probably dogmatic because I'm new to this, I learn that there is only one citta arising at a time, accompanied by the various cetasikas and having various functions. I gather that by the time one has a conscious awareness of an object, a whole sequence of rising and falling away has proceeded "subliminally," to use your phraseology. The element of experience which rises to the level of conscious awareness is the "next" citta only - is it not? You still seem to be theorising about a secondary flow of events. ----- What Abhidhamma and the commentaries call a citta then would exclude all elements that are subliminal, for, though present on the "stage of mind", they are flying in "under the radar" as it were. ----- S: That's what I'm learning. More or less. I still understand it to be that the flow of successive cittas is too fast to follow and that "awareness" comes late in the game and misses most of the action. Is this what you are saying? ----- What particular arising phenomenon becomes object in the moment is determined by a combination of prior and concurrently arising conditions, prominent among which are instances of kamma. ----- S: I think this is what I've gathered as well. Sa~n~na, accumulations and whatnot, as discussed elsewhere lately. That is , experience and it's valence (kusula/akusula) - vipakka -is kammically determined - again as I am trying to figure out - I don't know for sure. ----- Of course, this phenomenalist parallel-processing, rupic-bundle theory may well be wrong. There are several alternatives. One possiblity is that my phenomenalist presumptions are all wrong, and rupas may have "lives" independent of experience, both conscious and subliminal. ----- S: No I don't think so. ----- Another is that the phenomenalist (experiential) perspective is still correct, but that kalipas (rupic bundles) occur sequentially, with all component rupas arising one after the other in some order, but not simultaneously. ----- S: I'm sorry but I don't follow that (too tired?) You don't like that rupic bundles arise as "bundles?" I'll chat more later. Thanks for the discussion, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. 54796 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:49pm Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 .. Full Reply buddhatrue Hi Tep and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Sarah and James - > ................ > > Tep: Now I understand fully why James was mad at the way you answered > his questions ! > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep James thinks to himself, "Aren't Buddhists, above all others, supposed to deal with reality? How can a person call him/herself a Buddhist when his/her ideology is based on deceptive reasoning, subterfuge, leading questioning, dogmatism, and smoke screens? Just who are they fooling: others or themselves?" Tep, thanks for including a reference to me in this tread but I'm not sure how you would like me to respond. My only response is: you are beating your head against a brick wall. I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt, and then moved on. Pick your battles appropriately and realize that to give up a discussion because the other person isn't participating fairly doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right (though they may think so), it means you have the wisdom to know when enough is enough. Metta, James 54797 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:32pm Subject: Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles buddhatrue Hi Howard and TG (and Christine), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, TG (and Chris) - > > In a message dated 1/18/06 3:29:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, > TGrand458@a... writes: > > > I agree with the outlook regarding "Paramatthas" is dangerously close to, > > if > > not bound to, self-view. In reality, there are no "individual states" that > > > > are realities in and of themselves. Although Namdrol is attributing the > > paramattha idea to Theravadin; that's overreaching. It should be > > attributed only > > to Abhidhamma commentarial thought as far as I know. Saying that all > > Theravadin believes in paramattha dhammas; is like saying all Mahayanists > > chant -- > > nam yo ho ren ge kyo -- to achieve their desires. However, Namdrol does > > qualify his statement to -- Theravadins dealing with the paramattha idea > > and > > therefore I think his statement is reasonably correct and honest. > > > ========================= > I think that the sammati vs paramattha distinction is a valid one. And > pragmatically I see it as medicine for the illness of taking conventional > objects as real. But that is just a first step, in my opinion. If one goes on to > treat paramattha dhammas as separate, self-existent entities - that is, if one > reifies them, then one has simply moved on to a slightly more favorable > position but is still in the wrong. Paramattha dhammas are also empty. They lack > identity, and are empty of themselves! They have no independent, separate > existence or status whatsoever, depending entirely for their fleeting existence on > prior and co-arising conditions, all of which are equally empty of core. > > With metta, > Howard Howard, While I quite agree with what you have to say about paramattha dhammas, you are not purporting the official position of the Abhidhamma and its commentaries. The `Abhidhammattha Sangaha' states: With his supernormal knowledge the Buddha analyzed this so-called paramanu and declared this it consists of paramatthas- ultimate entities which cannot be further subdivided. -Narada Maha Thera, `A Manual of Abhidhamma', pg. 281. So Howard, when you write, "Paramattha dhammas are also empty. They lack identity, and are empty of themselves! They have no independent, separate existence or status whatsoever…" you are presenting your viewpoint, not the viewpoint of the Abhidhamma and its commentaries. The Abhidhamma does reify phenomena and so therefore the Dali Lama is correct in stating that the Theravada position doesn't adequately address the anatta of sensory objects and phenomena. Now, TG, you state that not all Theravada accept the paramattha theory, but that can't quite be so. The definition of a Theravada is someone who accepts all three baskets of the Pali Canon as written, and rejects any other commentaries or suttas. As an example, I would say that Sarah is full-fledged Theravada (with eccentric KS Philosophy thrown in for flavor ;-)); I, on the other hand, am mixed with beliefs and viewpoints from all three vehicles. Nowadays, I think there is a lot of mixing between the three vehicles and so it's difficult to find any Buddhist who is pure this or that vehicle (including monks/nuns). Metta, James 54798 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Principle difference between Individual and Universal Vehicles TGrand458@... Hi James I am unaware that a Theravadin by definition has to accept all three baskets verbatim. I know several very highly educated (in Sri Lanka) high ranking, life-long elder Sri Lankan Theravadin monks that are going to have to "re-register." ;-) Perhaps we can get Sarah to set them straight. ;-) TG In a message dated 1/18/2006 10:38:47 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Now, TG, you state that not all Theravada accept the paramattha theory, but that can't quite be so. The definition of a Theravada is someone who accepts all three baskets of the Pali Canon as written, and rejects any other commentaries or suttas. As an example, I would say that Sarah is full-fledged Theravada (with eccentric KS Philosophy thrown in for flavor ;-)); I, on the other hand, am mixed with beliefs and viewpoints from all three vehicles. Nowadays, I think there is a lot of mixing between the three vehicles and so it's difficult to find any Buddhist who is pure this or that vehicle (including monks/nuns). Metta, James 54799 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ending all Sadness, Frustration other states ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Scott Duncan wrote: >Thank you very much for your kind response. Thanx2U2... >The impact: An increased desire to strive for absorption, Advantagepus is that indeed. In fact perfect ... >very new to learning. Will not remain so for long it seems ... - Yes! : - ] Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....>