56000 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/23/06 11:32:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard, > Thanks for you message. I think you don't need to worry too much as > A. Sujin is now 79 years, soon her life will end. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm surprised at you, Robert! The implication that I would be pleased were she to pass away is more than mean spirited. I see that your clinging has now led you to lash out in a truly ugly way. ---------------------------------------- Perhaps DSG will > > close too and all the damage done to the Dhamma that you mention > will end. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I've been a supporter of DSG for a long time, Robert, and I won't let your intemperance change that. ------------------------------------- Very few people are interested in the West even now. > > Robertk > ==================== Robert, I find this post arrogant and unfriendly. I'm very saddened by it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56001 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:33pm Subject: Dream, dream, dream....[1] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, As there have been a few references to the ‘dream world’ we live in, some of you might like to read some of the helpful reminders we were given in Bangkok, like in this short exchange: ***** Sujin:...So it’s the gradual development of understanding of realities from hearing and considering, and hearing and considering until it grows to be the conditions for direct awareness to be aware and understand a reality right now If it’s not the understanding of a reality right now it’s impossible to eradicate the idea of self, because what postpones, what delays and what gets over this moment if it’s not lobha, clinging, and avijja? ..... Sarah: When you talk about living in the world of dreams, are you usually referring to the world of concepts that we’re lost in or are you referring to how all realities are dreams at this moment? .... Sujin: What world are we living in now? .... Sarah(& Jon): Mostly in the world of stories about people and things. .... Sujin: So it will be like this forever when there is no understanding of any characteristic as just a reality arising and falling away. Then one realizes that other moments are the world of dreams, the dream world, because we think a lot about that which arises and falls away and where is it after it has fallen away? It never comes back .... Sarah: So, by understanding the dream world we live in as a dream world we can learn to appreciate realities as dreams because they arise and pass away? .... Sujin: If there is no understanding, one doesn’t realize one is in a dream world at all, even what was the previous reality has completely gone. The whole life is a dream world from life to life. In a dream we felt very pleasant sometimes and unpleasant sometimes. We took it as a very important moment like now, a very important moment, but actually it’s gone, so nothing is as important as what we think. This is the beginning of becoming detached from the dream world because one realizes there is nothing, no self, only the elements of nama and rupa arising and falling away by conditions. .... Knowing: So maybe we came here because we are dreaming a little bit less? .... Sujin: Whenever there is direct awareness it’s not thinking about hardness, thinking about the book, thinking about cookies, but it’s the moment of understanding a characteristic which is so real, but just for a moment and then it passes away. It’s real when it arises and then it’s gone. We’ll be this person only in this life, so it’s like a dream to be this person. .... Jon: And yet we identify ourself with this person only so there’s no understanding of there being just a succession of namas. ... Sujin: We keep on thinking about what we were in previous lives and what we’ll be in the next life .... Jon: right ***** S: I look forward to hearing any comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ======== 56002 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 381- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] There is another way of classifying fetters and this shows us again that classifications are not rigid. We find for example in the Book of Analysis (Chapter 17, §940)(1) the following classification of the fetters which makes a distinction between “lower fetters” and “higher fetters”. There are five lower fetters (orambhågiyasaÿyojana) which tie beings to the sensuous planes and five higher fetters (uddhambhågiya-saÿyojana) which tie beings to the higher planes, the rúpa-brahma planes and the arúpa-brahma planes. The lower fetters are: -personality belief (sakkåya-diììhi) -doubt (vicikicchå) -clinging to rules and rituals (sílabbata-paråmåsa) -sensuous desire (kåma-råga) -ill-will (vyåpåda) The higher fetters are: -lust for rebirth in rúpa-brahma planes (rúpa-råga) -lust for rebirth in arúpa-brahma planes (arúpa-råga) -conceit (måna) -restlessness (uddhacca) -ignorance (avijjå) In this classification wrong view has been classified as twofold: under the aspect of personality belief and wrong practice. Clinging has been classified as threefold: as sensuous desire, as clinging to rebirth which is the result of rúpa-jhåna and as clinging to rebirth which is the result of arúpa-jhåna. Envy and stinginess do not occur in this classification. *** 1) See also Visuddhimagga XXII, 48. The same way of classification also occurs in the suttas, for example in the Dialogues of the Buddha III, no. 33, 234. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56003 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:57pm Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm surprised at you, Robert! The implication that I would be pleased > were she to pass away is more than mean spirited. I see that your clinging has > now led you to lash out in a truly ugly way. I've been a supporter of DSG for a long time, Robert, and I won't let > your intemperance change that. > Robert, I find this post arrogant and unfriendly. I'm very saddened by > it. > >========= Dear Howard, One who points out our faults should be revered as a teacher according to Dhamma, so I appreciate your kindness in replying as you did above. I would like to look at your earlier comments: >Howard: here I do see 'helpless and >hopeless' on the horizon! I think an attitude such as this is >dreadfully >harmful both to the one who has that attitude and to the listeners to whom s/he >>advocates it. Here is where the harm resides. ====== I must confess to not feeling helpless or hopeless about Dhamma, and I have known A. Sujin for over 15 years. Not wanting to disagree, but isn't any feeling a momentary reality- and thus a fine object for satipatthana when it arises. Surely if such feelings arise it is becuase they are conditioned to arise- who would think they could use will power (or who would want to) to make them arise. Thus even at a very coarse level they are showing how uncontrollable, anatta are elements. RobertK 56004 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question sarahprocter... Hi Htoo (& James), --- htootintnaing wrote: > If you happened to become a sotapanna straight away you would think to > enter the Order. Likewise if you became a sakadagam or anagam you > would think the same. ... S: Did all sotapannas (sakadagamis and anagamis) in the Buddha's time enter the Order (or think about it)? Metta, Sarah ======= 56005 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A question htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo (& James), > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > If you happened to become a sotapanna straight away you would think to > > enter the Order. Likewise if you became a sakadagam or anagam you > > would think the same. > ... > S: Did all sotapannas (sakadagamis and anagamis) in the Buddha's time > enter the Order (or think about it)? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Check again please. I said 'would think'. Not 'must'. With respect, Htoo 56006 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Matheesha - > In a message dated 2/23/06 11:03:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dhammachat@... writes: > > H: With regard to "Nibbana is the fading away of that luminosity," I'm > > >afraid I disagree. Please read the suttas (I can't recall references) > > that speak > > >of vi~n~nana anidassanam, unmanifestive consciousness, that is > > radiant all > > >around! > > > > > > M:) if there is consciousness (vinnana) which is part of the 5 > > aggregates, subject to arising and passing away, what nibbana is there? > > Where has dukkha ended? > > > > metta > > > > Matheesha > > > ======================== > There is the following (found on one web site): > _______________ > In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is the > consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is stated in > the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - > Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses and it is > immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with elements cease, > leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). > -------------------------- > > Aside from the foregoing, there is no way that I conceive of nibbana > as a dark sleep. Instead it is a state of the utmost peaceful and pristine > clarity. The goal is *awakening*. > > ======= Dear Howard, Khandha Parinibbana, death of an arahant, is the cessation of the khandhas including vinnanan (consciousness)according to Theravada. I asked Suan about the sutta above several years ago: "The original Pali does not have the term "Nibbanam" in Chattha Sangayana Pali Tipitaka. The original Pali found in Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, Dighanikayo starts with the term "Vié`anam". And Kevatta Sutta Atthakatha defines "Vié`anam" as follows. "Tattha vié`atabbanti "Vié`anam" nibbanassetam namam,.." "There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Vié`anam". This is the name of nibbana." And Kevatta Sutta Tika further explains the phrase "vié`atabbanti" as follows. "Vié`atabbanti visitthena ?Etabbam, ?Enuttamena ariyamagga?Enena paccakkhato janitabbanti attho, tenaha "nibbanassetam namam"ti." "(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated that 'This is the name of nibbana'" Therefore, the term 'Vié`anam' in the line of the original Pali verse "Vié`anam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to consciousness, the usual meaning of vié`anam. In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines "Ettha nama?Ea rupa?Ea, asesam uparujjhati Vié`anassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Therefore, I am afraid that your remark "Interesting that it can considered as a sort of vinnana as it is also said to be void of the khandas which include vinnana." would not apply to the original Pali verse. ibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of its Pali names happens to be Vié`anam. In English language, the term 'object' can have different meanings. For example, the term 'object' in visual object has no relation to the term 'object' in my object of studting Pali. Hope this message helps clarification. With regards, Suan=== ========= Robertk 56007 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question sarahprocter... Hi James (Htoo & all), I thought you raised your question about lay-people and arahants very nicely. There is a discussion on the same point in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy), the Abhidhamma text. I'd like to type out a little of it for you as you may be interested. [You may wish to skip the commmentary summary at the start.] From Bk 1V,1 'As to whether a Layman may be an Arahant': >Controverted Point - That a layman may be Arahant [From the commentary - this concerns the belief of those who, like the Uttaraapathakas, seeing that Yasa, the clansman's son, and others attained Arahantship while living amid the circumstances of secular life, judge that a layman might be an Arahant. Now the meaning in the Theravadin's question refers to the spiritual 'fetters' by which a layman is bound. But the opponent answers 'yes', because he sees only the outward characteristics. Now a layman is such by the spiritual fetter, and not merely by the outward trappings, even as the Exalted One said: 'Though he be finely clad, if he fare rightly, At peace and tamed, by right law nobly living, Refrain from scathe and harm to every creature;- Noble is he, recluse is he and bhikkhu (Dhp 142)" [1]Theravadin - You say the layman may be Arahant. But you imply therewith that the Arahant has the layman's fetters. 'No', you say, 'they do not exist for him'. Then how can a layman be Arahant? Now for the Arahant the lay-fetters are put away, cut off at the root, made as the stump of a palm tree, incapable of renewed life or of coming again to birth. Can you say that of a layman? You admit that there was never a layman who, [as such] without putting away his lay-fetters, made an end in this very life of all sorrow. Is there not a Suttanta in which the Wanderer Vacchagotta addressed the Exalted One thus: 'Is there now, O Gotama, any layman who, without having put away the layman's fetters, makes at death an end of Ill?' [And to whom the Exalted One said:] 'Nay, Vacchagotta, there is none'[MN i 483]< **** The text goes on to elaborate on how an arahant cannot live the lay life of family, home, decorations,keeping animals etc. In exceptional circumstances, a lay person may attain arahantship, but must give up the world. I hope school's going well. Metta, Sarah ======== 56008 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 691 ) sarahprocter... Hi Larry (Htoo & all), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks for your reply re. the three rounds: kamma, vipaka, and kilesa. > I've never seen this kind of classification before. Could you explain > further. Why isn't kilesa included in kamma? .... S: You may like to look at these posts from U.P: Rounds (3)- kamma-vatta, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta 1811,2260, 5336, 7444, 8506, 41102 As Jon explained (#55812), not all kilesa are kamma-patha, bringing results. The kilesa like lobha accumulate until they are of the degree that they bring results. ..... > > Also, I'm a little surprised that namarupa is vipaka. Isn't cetana and > the root cetasikas (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha) included in > namarupa? .... S: I expect Htoo explained, but only have your question in front of me. When we are discussing D.O, namarupa refer to the cetasikas accompanying vipaka cittas only (at rebirth and later in life) and the rupas conditioned by kamma (at birth and later). Metta, Sarah p.s I'm glad to see that you have resumed the Vism corner. Everyone, this is the start of a new series, a new chapter on Dependent Origination. I know Nina and Larry will be very glad if anyone adds any comments or questions (the more basic the better) anytime as a way of showing support for their work and reflecting on the difficult teachings. ============== ====== 56009 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samvega/Urgency sarahprocter... Hi Phil, I'm glad your trip is going well and I liked all your points about the various concepts we live in. Earlier you wrote: --- Phil wrote: > Phil: It seems to me, from very shallowing reading, that there are > many more references into the suttas (Samyutta Nikaya) of falling > away from wholesome states because of akusala proliferation rather > than building kusala due to papanca. The stamping out the fire > simile, the "falling away from wholesome states" line in another > sutta - from my reading of SN I can't think of any suttas off hand > that point at the wholesome operation of papanca! .... S: No, you won't! Papanca refers to the proliferation of lobha (lobha, mana, ditthi) only. > As I've > said before, if Dhamma helps people be happy in the worldly sense, > that's not a bad thing at all for them. But it may be taking them > away from the path. I'm not saying the point is to be miserable. I'm > not a sourpuss. But if bad moods, periods of being cranky, > tempermental outburst come about, they come about and can be > understood. It is only by understanding our defilements that we can > begin to eradicate them. Intentionally seeking one's happiness and > the happiness of others is most definitely NOT the way to go, no > doubt about that. Worldly happiness can be increased by intentional > Dhamma-ish activites. I know that from personal experience. But > worldly happiness is not the goal. Understanding is the true > happiness. ... S: I like the way you express this very much. Sometimes we need to question what our goal is. Is it really the giving up of Self or is it relieving the stress, suffering and angst for Self? .... > OK, enough of that. What a load of rubbish, most of it. ... S: I disagree - it was a load of good dhamma:). ... > Fortunately, there is always material for investigating > arising through the six doors, wherever we are and whatever we are > doing. That's what is really important. It is for the understanding > of the eye, form, seeing (and so on for the other ayatanas) that the > holy life is to be lived, as the Buddha put it in another sutta that > I can't properly reference at the moment! Sorry. ... S: Like these good reminders. I'm glad your mother is a little better than expected and wish you and Naomi a good stay. Perhaps you can buy her a nice warm jacket:). We'll look forward to your return. Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin helped me send out a few cds inc. the ones we'd made for you. I hope they're waiting in your box on return. Pls let me know. ================ 56010 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 646 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Dhamma Thread ( 646 ) is a challenging post. At the end you will see > that it was not my belief. ... S: Ah, my mistake! I had (wrongly) assumed you believed what you were writing in the series:). .... > I just posted as a hypothetic test. .... S: OK :-/ I'll keep it in mind, thx for the explanations:-) Metta, Sarah ======== 56011 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > > If you happened to become a sotapanna straight away you would > think to > > > enter the Order. ... > > S: Did all sotapannas (sakadagamis and anagamis) in the Buddha's > time > > enter the Order (or think about it)? .... > Dear Sarah, > > Check again please. I said 'would think'. Not 'must'. ... S: Do you have any support to suggest Visakkha thought about it (or would think about it)? Or Anathapindika's daughter Sumana who was a sakadagami (or anagami on one text), who was so broken-hearted about not finding a husband? Metta Sarah ========== 56012 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:33am Subject: ....and there's light relief here too:) sarahprocter... Hi Friends, For those who are new the list, we also offer light relief: a)take a look at the photo albums for DSG to be found on the home page. Most of the regulars can be found there. There is also an album of 'Significant Others' which I see Connie has just kindly added a picture in of herself, with her daughter (Isabella) and grand-daughter (Marisa). Very nice, Connie, thank you!! Please do add your pic to the member album and a pic of any family members or significant others to this album if you haven't done so already. We have one or two techno wiz members, such as James or Chris (I think), who are happy to work with a hard copy photo, driving licence, web pic or anything else if you can give a few clues. Joop (& maybe Tep too?), weren't you looking out a pic to send him before? As Chris always reminds everyone, it doesn't matter whether you're 'frail or firm....long or big or middle-sized or short or small or thick etc', we'd just like to see you in the album:-). b)In Useful Posts (in the files section) at the very bottom under 'z', take a look under 'zany' when you're needing a break from all the serious stuff:). Metta, Sarah ======== 56013 From: "nanapalo" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Start Learning Abhidamma nana_palo@... Dear Inge, i am an Indonesian too. Wecome to the forum. If you have time, every Saturday morning we have an Abhidhamma discussion in Bogor (near Jakarta) at Jl. Belitung no 2. Bogor (belakang Terminal Bis Bogor). Some of our members are from Jakarta. this email by cc to Yu Wei from Jakarta who always attend our discussion. kind regards, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inge Endah Hartati" To: Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:52 AM Subject: [dsg] Start Learning Abhidamma > Hi All, > I'm Indonesian. > I joined this group for several weeks but > I'm still confuse when I read all of ur discussion. > > I Need ur guidance, where do i have to start if i want > to learn abhidhamma? > > ur help will be highly appreciated <...> 56014 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,58 hantun1 Dear Larry (and U Htoo Naing), I am checking only the spelling of the Pali word. With metta, Han Tun --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Han, > > How would you translate 'a~n~naa.na.m'? I lean more > toward the idea of > actively ignoring rather than the absence of > knowledge. But I don't know > the grammar. Could it be said that a rock is > a~n~naa.na.m of the four > noble truths? > > Larry > > Han Tun: 'Dear Htoo and Larry, > Can I just join in? > According to the Pali text that I have, it is > 'a~n~naa.na.m' <...> 56015 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:14am Subject: Enthusiastic is Energy ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Energy is the Fifth Mental Perfection: Energy means enthusiasm Energy means effort Energy means exertion Energy means interest Energy means endeavour Energy means eagerness Energy means initiative Energy means intensity Energy means action Energy means force Energy means power Energy means keenness Energy means devotion Energy means dedication Energy means determination Energy means commitment Energy means enjoyment Energy pave the way for success in all & any project ... Energy is thereby instrumental for all the perfections. Without energy can no achievement ever be accomplished. The proximate cause for energy is a sense of urgency !!! The characteristic of energy is striving, it's function is effort, and the manifestation of energy is endurance. Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams ? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving. Sutta Nipata 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude & dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipata 332 Possessed of Energy & Endurance be always earnest in your training. The clever One is not satisfied before the goal of ending all misery, is wholly achieved. Theragatha 585 It is too cold, it is too hot..., It is too early, it is too late! Such bad excuses, make one give up the training & miss one more precious opportunity... DN 31 This straight Way has now been clearly shown: Don't hesitate, walk forward & do not turn around. Urge yourself to advance further by your own Energy, only thus will you obviously approach & attain Nibbana! Theragatha 637 The effort to prevent & to eliminate evil, to develop & to maintain good: These are the 4 right efforts, taught by the Buddha. AN II 17 And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, not yet arisen, & food too for boosting of the present Energy ? The element of initiative, The element of exertion, The element of endurance. Systematic attention to these, is feeding the yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, & food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikaya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta At such times, friends, when the mind is Slow, Sluggish, and Heavy: Then it is the Right Occasion: for cultivating the Investigation-by-curiosity enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Energy-of-Enthusiasm enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Rapture-of-Joy enlightenment-factor... Why is it so ? When the mind is slow, sluggish, and heavy, it is Easily Raised Up by exactly these mental qualities. Suppose, friends, that a man wants a fire to blaze up, and he put on dry grass, dry wood sticks and blow it with dry hot air and do not cover it with any dust, would that man then see his fire blaze up ? Certainly So, Lord... SN V, 46. Bojjhanga-samyutta Well then, Moggallana, whatever experience you had in mind when drowsiness demoralized you down, don't attend to that experience, don't follow it. Remember instead the Dhamma, as you have heard & memorized it, reflect on & examine it! Then raise up & repeat aloud the details of Dhamma, as you have learnt it! Then pull both your earlobes and rub your limbs with both your hands.! Then get up from your seat, and after washing your eyes with cold water, look around & upward in all directions and identify the major stars & planets! Then attend to the experience of inner light, resolve on the clear perception of daytime, by night as by day, and by day as by night! By means of an awareness thus open, unhindered & vivid, develop the bright mind. It's possible, that by doing this, you will shake off your lethargy... But if by doing this you don't shake off your laziness, then continually noting what is both in front & behind set of a distance to meditate walking back & forth, your senses inwardly settled, while your mind is not getting lost outwards. It is possible that by doing this you will finally shake off your sluggishness. Anguttara Nikaya VII 58 Born as the Brahmin Mahajanaka, the Bodhisatta was once, aboard a ship sinking far from shore. All the crew were in great panic...!!! The Bodhisatta though ate his belly full of sugar & ghee, oiled his clothes and swam continuously for 7 days towards the shore, until he was rescued by an ocean guarding female devata. Later he remembered: "Even far out at sea, where many men were lost, yet still unruffled by worry was my mind. This was my perfection of Energy." Mahajanaka-Jataka no. 539 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56016 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: A question jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (Htoo & all), > Hallo Sarah, Sarah, one question: You said: "The text goes on to elaborate on how an arahant cannot live the lay life of family, home, decorations,keeping animals etc. In exceptional circumstances, a lay person may attain arahantship, but must give up the world." My question: is living, as a monk or nun, in a monastery giving up the world? I think it is not, a monastery is a part of the world; another part than family life and livelihood but still the world. There is only one way to give up te world. The active variant (suicide) of no good. Or do you mean the passive variant: no eating, no drinking: starvation? Metta Joop 56017 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:42am Subject: Hello gunasaro@... Dear All Kalyanamitta: I'd like to express my muditacittena of being a member in this group. My name is Gunasaro [Indonesian], just joined into this group todate. Since kid, I was an unreasonable Buddhist, meaning: I wouldn't be a non-Buddhist but I just didn't know why? Then I followed a sect which only pressed belief & obedient, no understanding into faith. Luckily, I read Dhammapada in the monastery which claimed as a sect without bible [Buddhism]. Since then I found my reason of being a Buddhist, I was introduced to a unique wisdom & way of thinking. I was informed into this group by Mr. Selamat Rodjali. Under his tutoring, I attend The Abhidhamma Course on weekly basis. Thanking so much for Your attention & hopefully I can get spiritual benefit from all of You... Sukhi Hotu, Gunasaro 56018 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Start Learning Abhidamma sarahprocter... Hi Inge, It's good to see so many Indonesians joining us recently and to hear of your interest in the Abhidhamma. --- Inge Endah Hartati wrote: > Hi All, > I'm Indonesian. > I joined this group for several weeks but > I'm still confuse when I read all of ur discussion. > > I Need ur guidance, where do i have to start if i want > to learn abhidhamma? .... S: Where do you live in Indonesia? I see Selamat has already kindly responded and mentioned the Bogor group. With regard to reading, I would recommend: 1) Nina Van Gorkom's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. Go slowly, a page or two at a time and ask us any questions or add your comments here. It can be found on line at this link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 2) Go to 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG and scroll down to Abhidhamma-beginners. There are many very helpful messages here to get you started. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ 3) Print out the simple Pali-English glossary from the same files section to have handy and also a handy link to this dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html 4) Ask, ask, ask any time for any clarifications here:)We all learn from questions or confusions. Let us know how you go and I hope you find the discussions useful. (Just put aside any topics which are too complicated for now). Metta, Sarah ======= 56019 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Sukin), --- han tun wrote: > I am now staying in Thailand. > Thank you very much for your kind words about WHO. <..> > I am also grateful to you for recommending to me the > documents to study. I will do that slowly. After > cataract operation of both eyes and the possibility of > age-related macula degeneration looming with the > presence of “drusens” on both retinas, I cannot work > on my computer for long periods. .... S: I understand. I'm sorry to hear of your eye problems. I print out all the posts to read so that I can do this at leisure away from the computer. It just takes me a few minutes first thing every morning to print them out. (If anyone wants any tips, pls ask me off-list) Do you live in Bangkok? If so, it would be easy to give you a copy of K.Sujin's Abhidhamma text (translated by Nina)-'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. There may also be a spare hard copy of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' which you can have any maybe one or two other books of Nina's. I know Sukin will gladly arrange to meet you if this would be of assistance. > I know Htoo very well. I hope I will know Kelvin also > in due course of time. ... S: Kelvin also has a lot of Abhidhamma knowledge. He has just returned to the States from Myanmar, isn't that right Kelvin? .... > > Once again, I thank you very much for your warm > welcome. > With metta and my warmest personal regards, ... S: Thank you for all your considerate messages. I hope Sukin and Kel introduce themselves to you as well. Metta, Sarah ================================= 56020 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. Yes, I live in Bangkok, and I would be most grateful to receive whatever Abhidhamma books that K. Sujin could give me. With metta, Han 56021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Start Learning Abhidamma nilovg Hi Inge, welcome here. I appreciate your interest in Abhidhamma. The moderator will suggest to you some reading material, and then whatever you find difficult, do ask. By discussion you will have more understanding. Abhidhamma is not theory, it deals with all realities of daily life. It will greatly help you to understand yourself, your different cittas. Do not be put off by our discussions, just select the posts you find understandable. Nina. op 24-02-2006 02:52 schreef Inge Endah Hartati op ingeendah@...: > Hi All, > I'm Indonesian. > I joined this group for several weeks but > I'm still confuse when I read all of ur discussion. 56022 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member nilovg Dear Han, you may be interested to have Kh. Sujin's book a Survey of Paramattha Dhammas I translated from Thai. It is available in Bgk where you live, or it can be sent to you, very easy. Let me know off line. But I understand that you have to save your eyes, I am sorry about your ailment. Nina. op 23-02-2006 22:53 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > Dear Nina, > > I do not have any commentary and sub-commentary, > either in Burmese translation or the Pali text. 56023 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:49am Subject: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear DSG, I'd be interested in learning how meditation is seen in the context of satipatthaana. In A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas I read of how one cannot will sati into being, one cannot will pa~n~na into being, one need not sequester one's self here or there in order to "force" these things to arise - one can be aware where ever one is. Do I understand this correctly? Does this minimize or negate meditation as a practise or is it to be seen as part of an overall practise? Sincerely, Scott. 56024 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/24/06 1:58:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >>--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I'm surprised at you, Robert! The implication that I would > be pleased > >were she to pass away is more than mean spirited. I see that your > clinging has > >now led you to lash out in a truly ugly way. > I've been a supporter of DSG for a long time, Robert, and I > won't let > >your intemperance change that. > > > Robert, I find this post arrogant and unfriendly. I'm very > saddened by > >it. > > > >========= > Dear Howard, > One who points out our faults should be revered as a teacher > according to Dhamma, so I appreciate your kindness in replying as > you did above. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Robert, for the kindness of this reply of yours. I was very blunt - probably too much so. --------------------------------------------- > > I would like to look at your earlier comments: > >Howard: here I do see 'helpless and > >hopeless' on the horizon! I think an attitude such as this is > >dreadfully > >harmful both to the one who has that attitude and to the listeners > to whom s/he > >>advocates it. Here is where the harm resides. > ====== > I must confess to not feeling helpless or hopeless about Dhamma, and > I have known A. Sujin for over 15 years. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: That's good. I am truly pleased that is so. (It doesn't strike me as logical that it be so, but, then, logic isn't eveything! ;-) -------------------------------------------- Not wanting to disagree, > > but isn't any feeling a momentary reality- and thus a fine object > for satipatthana when it arises. Surely if such feelings arise it is > becuase they are conditioned to arise- who would think they could > use will power (or who would want to) to make them arise. Thus even > at a very coarse level they are showing how uncontrollable, anatta > are elements. --------------------------------------------- Howard: My observation is that conventional willing, underlying which is a vast complex of activities incuding cetana, bears fruit all the time. It is also my observation that though most significant events cannot be directly willed, a multitude of small events that serve as conditions for the significant ones can be. To use a very conventional example just to get the point across, I cannot simply will that my wife and I be in Texas instead of at home on Long Island, but I can willfully carry out a host of minor actions that will, all together, succeed in getting us to Texas. I also cannot simply will that I be an ariyan. But steps can be taken. I think of the adage "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -------------------------------------------- > RobertK > ===================== Thank you for writing again, Robert. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56025 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, viññaa.na.m, attention Suan. nilovg Hi howard and Rob K, Suan, Exactly, this is the post I had in mind. Howard the letters did not quite come out, read: viññaa.na.m. I know, Howard, that you also appreciate Suan's expertise (where is he?). Nina. op 24-02-2006 08:20 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: Howard writes: >> There is the following (found on one web site): >> _______________ >> In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana > is the >> consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as > is stated in >> the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > pabbam" - >> Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the > senses and it is >> immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with > elements cease, >> leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). >> -------------------------- >>> Aside from the foregoing, there is no way that I > conceive of nibbana >> as a dark sleep. Instead it is a state of the utmost peaceful and > pristine >> clarity. The goal is *awakening*. >> >> ======= > Dear Howard, > Khandha Parinibbana, death of an arahant, is the cessation of the > khandhas including vinnanan (consciousness)according to Theravada. > > I asked Suan about the sutta above several years ago: > > > "The original Pali does not have the term "Nibbanam" in Chattha > Sangayana Pali Tipitaka. > > The original Pali found in Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, > Silakkhandhavagga, Dighanikayo starts with the term "Vié`anam". > > And Kevatta Sutta Atthakatha defines "Vié`anam" as follows. > > "Tattha vié`atabbanti "Vié`anam" nibbanassetam namam,.." > > "There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Vié`anam". This is the > name of nibbana." > > And Kevatta Sutta Tika further explains the phrase "vié`atabbanti" > as follows. > > "Vié`atabbanti visitthena ?Etabbam, ?Enuttamena > ariyamagga?Enena paccakkhato janitabbanti attho, tenaha > "nibbanassetam namam"ti." > > "(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The > meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate > wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated > that 'This is the name of nibbana'" > > Therefore, the term 'Vié`anam' in the line of the original Pali > verse > > "Vié`anam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to > consciousness, the usual meaning of vié`anam. > > In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines > > "Ettha nama?Ea rupa?Ea, asesam uparujjhati > Vié`anassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". > > "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. > By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." > > Therefore, I am afraid that your remark "Interesting that it can > considered as a sort of vinnana as it is also said to be void of the > khandas which include vinnana." would not apply to the original Pali > verse. > ibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of > its Pali names happens to be Vié`anam. > > In English language, the term 'object' can have different meanings. > For example, the term 'object' in visual object has no relation to > the term 'object' in my object of studting Pali. > Hope this message helps clarification. > With regards, > Suan=== > ========= > Robertk 56026 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello new member from Indonesia nilovg Hello Gunasaro, Welcome here. I am so glad to hear that Selamat introduced you and that you follow the Abhidhamma course, the best way to know oneself. True, in Buddhism you learn to develop your own understanding, by considering, checking, in your daily life what you learnt. You do not follow other people, you can verify the truth of the teachings. Any remarks or questions with regard to your Abhidhamma course? Best wishes, Nina. op 24-02-2006 10:42 schreef Gunasaro op gunasaro@...: > I was informed into this group by Mr. Selamat Rodjali. Under his tutoring, I > attend The Abhidhamma Course on weekly basis. 56027 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,58 nilovg Hi Larry, I am just butting in. op 24-02-2006 06:28 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Hi Han, > > How would you translate 'a~n~naa.na.m'? I lean more toward the idea of > actively ignoring rather than the absence of knowledge. But I don't know > the grammar. Could it be said that a rock is a~n~naa.na.m of the four > noble truths? ------- N: What we call a rock consists of rupas. ruupa is the dhamma that does not know or experience anything. When speaking about 'a~n~naa.na.m, this is having no ñaa.na, understanding. This cannot refer to ruupa, it is moha cetasika, arising with akusala citta. Here we see that the Abhidhamma can save us from confusion. Nina. 56028 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... matheesha333 Hi Howard, RobertK "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Thanks for that clarification. Also when avijja ends so does sankhara, and so on till the end of the DO. I think the confusion lies in this: the arahath is not unconscious! His consciousness remain unfettered to the five aggragates. There is no proliferation, cooled, not caught up in the five aggragates, no adding to the khandas. No arising of lobha, dosa, moha. However he would have the ability to have the (non)experience of nibbana in arahanth phalasamapatti. This is where even consciousness would cease. With skandaparinibbana the transformation is 'complete'. metta Matheesha 56029 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:14am Subject: Re: Samvega/Urgency philofillet Hi Sarah and all > > Phil: It seems to me, from very shallowing reading, that there are > > many more references into the suttas (Samyutta Nikaya) of falling > > away from wholesome states because of akusala proliferation rather > > than building kusala due to papanca. The stamping out the fire > > simile, the "falling away from wholesome states" line in another > > sutta - from my reading of SN I can't think of any suttas off hand > > that point at the wholesome operation of papanca! > .... > S: No, you won't! Papanca refers to the proliferation of lobha (lobha, > mana, ditthi) only. Phil: I see, that makes sense. If I get a chance someday I might compile a list of all the suttas in SN 35 (which deals with the ayatanas and therefore the proilferation that starts from there) that point at the flammability of the dhammas, the propensity to akusala that is laid out there. I really do feel that reflection on SN 35 makes it clear that the belief that kusala can be willed into existence by following intentional practices is quite peculiar indeed. Peculiar, but absolutely predictable because it's the way of the world to want to have things go acoording to plans. No, come to think of it, I won't compile that list. People read suttas with the understanding that is available at the moment they read them. Well, different impulses of understanding from moment to moment, word to word. Throwing sutta qutations around at DSG is not the way to go. We are each of us on our own, developing or not developing understanding through the six doors. A moment of seeing that is understood is of infinitely greater value than a sutta that is clung to with lobha and thrust at others with the intention of proving oneself correct.I guess all the suttas we devour with greed for understanding and conceit can condition a more kusala reading down the road. Perhaps. . Intentionally seeking one's happiness and > > the happiness of others is most definitely NOT the way to go, no > > doubt about that. Worldly happiness can be increased by intentional > > Dhamma-ish activites. I know that from personal experience. But > > worldly happiness is not the goal. Understanding is the true > > happiness. > ... > S: I like the way you express this very much. Sometimes we need to > question what our goal is. Is it really the giving up of Self or is it > relieving the stress, suffering and angst for Self? Phil: I guess it's inevitable the latter, although in subtle forms a lot of the time. Moments of the former are few and far between as we know, very few and very far between. At least we understand that. On the other hand, it is good that people find peace of mind and freedom from intense mental suffering or depression or overwhelming fear or grief through Dhamma. It is not the true path, but peace of mind might be a helpful condition for the path, I guess. The problem, if it is a problem, is that the peace of mind is taken as an end in itself by popular Buddhism today. I looked at a book of a hugely respected Buddhist teacher the other day and though I was in the Sentimental Poetry section of the bookstore. > .... > > OK, enough of that. What a load of rubbish, most of it. > ... > S: I disagree - it was a load of good dhamma:).\ Hey, you're right. Thanks Sarah. That was mana, conceit in its false self-deprecation form. I am great, you're right!!! :) Phil > ... phil > > Fortunately, there is always material for investigating > > arising through the six doors, wherever we are and whatever we are > > doing. That's what is really important. It is for the understanding > > of the eye, form, seeing (and so on for the other ayatanas) that the > > holy life is to be lived, as the Buddha put it in another sutta that > > I can't properly reference at the moment! p.s Yes, this is what it's all about. It doesn't matter whatsoever what people think of Acharn Sujin or DSG or whatever other story. Not whatsoever. I'm confident of that. 56030 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana nilovg Dear Scott, Right, no forcing is possible, the citta and cetasikas arise and are then gone, before you can even think of forcing. As to meditation, it is to be known that the citta is the source of mental development. Kusala citta is not accompanied by lobha, dosa, moha. It is accompanied by alobha, adosa and in the case of mental development by understanding, amoha or non-delusion. The place of meditation is wherever you may be, and you can learn the characteristic of whatever dhamma appears through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. This is not different in the USA or Bangkok or Holland. When visible object appears there is the world appearing through the eyes. But we live mostly in the world of thinking about people and things, as in a dream. It is good to realize this, it can be the beginning of a cure. Nina. op 24-02-2006 15:49 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Dear DSG, > > I'd be interested in learning how meditation is seen in the context of > satipatthaana. In A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas I read of how one > cannot will sati into being, one cannot will pa~n~na into being, one > need not sequester one's self here or there in order to "force" these > things to arise - one can be aware where ever one is. 56031 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:58pm Subject: Gadrabha Sutta matheesha333 Help | Home » Tipitaka » Sutta Pitaka » Anguttara Nikaya » Context of this sutta Anguttara Nikaya III.81 (ii) Gadrabha Sutta The Donkey Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, it is just as if a donkey were following right after a herd of cattle, saying, "I too am a cow! I too am a cow!" Its color is not that of a cow, its voice is not that of a cow, its hoof is not that of a cow, and yet it still keeps following right after the herd of cattle, saying, "I too am a cow! I too am a cow!" In the same way, there is the case where a certain monk follows right after the community of monks, saying, "I too am a monk! I too am a monk!" He doesn't have the other monks' desire for undertaking the training in heightened virtue, doesn't have their desire for undertaking the training in heightened mind (concentration), doesn't have their desire for undertaking the training in heightened discernment, and yet he still keeps following right after the community of monks, saying, "I too am a monk! I too am a monk!" "So you should train yourselves: 'Strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened virtue; strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened mind (concentration); strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened discernment.' That is how you should train yourselves." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: AN III.88; AN III.89; AN III.94; AN VIII.13. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 6-Jun-2004 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-081.html 56032 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,58 lbidd2 Larry: "Hi Han, How would you translate 'a~n~naa.na.m'? I lean more toward the idea of actively ignoring rather than the absence of knowledge. But I don't know the grammar. Could it be said that a rock is a~n~naa.na.m of the four noble truths?" ------- Nina: "What we call a rock consists of rupas. ruupa is the dhamma that does not know or experience anything. When speaking about 'a~n~naa.na.m, this is having no ñaa.na, understanding. This cannot refer to ruupa, it is moha cetasika, arising with akusala citta. Here we see that the Abhidhamma can save us from confusion. Nina." Hi Nina, I agree. A rupa doesn't have any understanding but the lack of understanding isn't the cause of dependent arising. The cause of dependent arising is a cetasika which arises with volition (cetana). This cetasika is not only not knowing, it is anti-knowing. The verb "ignore" may not be the best because there is the implication of a self that ignores. Even though ignorance is akusala it is anatta. Even though there may be the belief in a self that ignores, there is no self that ignores. Larry 56033 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:31pm Subject: Dying moments hantun1 Dear Nina, I came across the following excerpts in “Abhidhamma in Daily Life”. -------------------- “If one is not an arahat yet, there will be a patisandhi-citta succeeding the cuti-citta, Before the cuti-citta arises, there are only five javana-citta instead of seven and these are the last javana-cittas of that lifespan. If kusala kamma will produce the patisandhi-citta of the next life these last javana-cittas are kusala cittas and if akusala kamma will produce the patisandhi-citta of the next life they are akusala cittas. These javana-cittas can experience a pleasant or unpleasant object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door and this object is conditioned by the kamma which will produce the patisandhi-citta. One may remember previous kamma, or one may experience a sign or symbol of it, or else one may experience a sign or symbol of the place of one's rebirth.” “If someone suffers great pains before he dies because of an accident or sickness, the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta will not necessarily be akusala cittas. There may be akusala cittas with aversion when he feels the pain, but the last javana-cittas may be kusala cittas. There may be 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) preceding the cuti-citta.” ------------------ Han: When a person is dying his faculties including mental faculties will, in most cases, deteriorate. He may not hear the parittas that are being played near him, or he may not hear when his family reminded him to remember the wholesome deeds that he had done. In such a situation, he may be at the mercy of whatever objects that may appear through one of the sense doors or through the mind-door. If he had practiced satipatthaana meditation seriously and regularly (but not yet attained any magga nana) will he be able to develop sati and 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) just before the cuti-citta, despite the deteriorated mental faculty at that moment. Or will he be at the mercy of the objects that may appear at random? Or will his past kusala kamma, provided it is more than his past akusala kamma, automatically bring in the pleasant objects to appear? With metta and deepest respect, Han 56034 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16pm Subject: Patience is the Highest Praxis ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Patience is the Sixth Mental Perfection: The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. He who patiently protects himself, protects also others. He who patiently protects others, protects also himself. Not from speaking much is one called clever. The patient one, free from anger, free from fear, only such one is rightly called clever. Dhammapada 258 Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... Nibbana is the supreme state!!! So say all the Buddhas. Dhammapada 184 The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, who patiently endures abuse, flogging & even imprisonment, such one, armed with endurance, the great force of tolerance, such one, I call a Holy One. Dhammapada 399 One should follow those who are determined, tolerant, enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, clever, good-willed and Noble. One shall stick to them as the moon remains in it's regular orbit. Dhammapada 208 Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: Remain pervading them & all others with a friendly awareness imbued with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, & immeasurable! Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. Majjhima Nikaya 21 Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any irritation can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu, when it arises in him. What are the five? 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 2: Understanding can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 3: On-looking equanimity can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 4: The forgetting and ignoring of an irritating person or state can be practiced.. 5: Ownership of Kamma in an irritating person can be reflected upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his actions, is born of his actions & only he is responsible for his actions be they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which irritation can be entirely removed in a friend just when it arises... Anguttara Nikaya V 161 Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any of those... Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind like water, then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. Rahula with water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any of that! Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, then contacts of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! Rahula, fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, space does not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished like open space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & frustration will neither dominate nor obsess your mind. Majjhima Nikaya 62 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56035 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:28pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 382- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] The magga-citta of the sotåpanna eradicates the three lower fetters of personality belief, clinging to rules and rituals (wrong practice) and doubt. He has not eradicated sensuous desire and ill-will, but for him these are not as gross as in the case of the non-ariyan; they cannot lead to an unhappy rebirth. The magga-citta of the sakadågåmí does not eradicate the fetters of sensuous desire and ill-will, but they have become attenuated. Paññå has to be developed to a high degree in order that desire and ill-will can be eradicated. The anågåmí eradicates both these fetters. He is no longer tied by the lower fetters, but he is still tied by the higher fetters. This shows how hard it is to eradicate these fetters. Only the magga-citta of the arahat can eradicate them. The arahat does not cling at all, he does not cling to the result of jhåna, he does not cling to rebirth in any plane of existence. He has no more conceit, restlessness and ignorance, he has eradicated all akusala dhammas. He has no akusala citta nor kusala citta, instead he has kiriyacitta which does not produce any result. The arahat is truly a perfected one, his task has been fulfilled. He is no longer fettered to the cycle of birth and death. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56036 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 647 ) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > As I explained in my posts D.O is a form of reavealing conditional > relationship. Pathana is another way of revealing the relationship. > If you check against D.O commentaries you may find the explanation > on relationship. It is not about ayatana but about 'linear > relationship'. .... S: D.O. is very complex and when we read about the sixfold ayatanas there is a brief and a detailed explanation given. I think all the teachings are about the ayatanas myself, about the coming together of various elements in order for there to be any experience at all. Without such a 'meeting' there would be no contact, feeling, clinging etc. Here's a paragraph from the Sammohavinodanii in the detailed section on paticca samuppada (Dispeller of Delusion,PTS, 828), under 'With the Sixfold Base as Condition, Contact): "Here it may be said: 'One kind of contact does not derive from all bases (ayatanas), nor all kinds of contact from one base. And yet 'with the sixfold base as condition, contact' is said in the singular. Why is that?' Herein, this is the answer. It is true that one is not derived from all, nor all from one. However, one is derived from many: for eye contact is derived from the eye base, from the visible datum base, from the mind base called eye-consciousness and from the mental-datum base consisting of the remaining associated states. "So it should be construed throughout as appropriate. Therefore, -Though stating it as singular the Blessed One herewith points out That this contact, though only one, is yet derived from many bases.-(Vbg 138) [S: As I commented, at a moment of seeing, there has to be the meeting of 4 ayatanas - these are all implied] " 'Though stating it as singular': by this statement in the singular, namely, 'with the sixfold base as condition, contact', it is pointed out by the Blessed One (taadin) that contact, which is of one kind, comes into being from many bases - this is the meaning." ****** I think all aspects of the teachings have to be in conformity with each other. So whatever we read is about the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas etc, even though particular aspects are stressed in certain suttas, in the Vinaya or in parts of the Abhidhamma. Metta, Sarah =========== 56037 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 648 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, I have to say that I greatly value being able to discuss difficult aspects of the dhamma with you frankly. --- htootintnaing wrote: > > 'Naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa'. > > > > Here sa.laayatana or 6-sense-bases are clear that they are > > > > 1. eye-sense-base > > 2. ear-sense-base > > 3. nose-sense-base > > 4. tongue-sense-base > > 5. body-sense-base > > 6. mind-sense-base > .... > S: I'm not so sure it is so simple or clear as you suggest. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I was not discussing on aayatana dhamma. I was discussing on > D.O. As you say there cannot arise phassa only with internal ayatana. ... S: As I just mentioned, when you list the sa.laayatana in D.O. you are discussing aayatana dhamma as I see it:). Here, by implication all aayatanas are referred to, even though they are listed in this way, individualy. (see my last post). ... > vinnaana --> nama-rupa --> sa.laayatana --> phassa > > When you consider phassa yes there are three things coming together. > Actually there are four things including phassa. They are > > 1. citta > 2. object > 3. internal-sense-base (like eye) > 4. phassa (and other cetasikas) .... S: Or we can say there are the meeting of 4 ayatanas at moments of sense experiencing in order for there to be contact. ... H:> As you say sa.laayatana are 12. They are 6 pairs. These 12 aayatanas > are naama-ruupa. So nama-rupa paccaya nama-ruupa. ... S: The first naama-ruupa refers to the cetasikas accompanying rebirth consciousness (and subsequent vipaka) and rupas conditioned by kamma from the first moment of birth. Without patisandhi citta (rebirth) and associated states and rupas, there could be no 'meeting together' of subsequent (inner and outer) ayatanas. As you say, these ayatanas are all nama-rupa and so what you say is true. I think we have to reflect on the meaning of ayatanas when we discuss D.O. Thank you for helping me to reflect further. Metta, Sarah p.s I thought some of your later sections on D.O. were very helpful and I thought DT807 (#55805) on paramattha and Patthana Dhamma was excellent. For those who don't read all the DT, I recommend you look at this one:). =============================================================== 56038 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and other irrealities (3) And dreams sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > J: I prefer an example in which the "I" don't plays a role, so this > time not about anatta (perhaps tomorrow again about anatta). So my > example: "the sun exists, even when I don't exist". This ia a > conventional truth, but is it not real in the absolute sense? .... S: There are only 28 rupas as you know. 'Sun' is a concept like 'tree'. of course that concept is based on many different realities. ... >It is > not relevant (it is one one the kind of things about which the Buddha > was silent), but is it not real? Is it not true in the absolute > sense? .... S: Do you see the sun? Do you touch the sun? Real in what sense? .... In conventional logic something is false when (and if) it is > not true. Does the same logic exist according ultimate truth? .... S: Not exactly. If it's not a paramattha dhamma, it may well be a conventional truth as in this case. It's not false to say (and the Buddha would too) that there's a sun. But we have to know this is convenional language only. If we think we can really experience the sun, then it's wrong or false view. Metta, Sarah ========== 56039 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 662 ) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Upadaana paccaya bhavo'. > > 'Clinging conditions becoming (existence).' > There are four different kamma depending on where they will give rise > to their results as beings. They are > > 1. akusala kamma > 2. kaama-kusala kamma > 3. ruupa-kusala kamma > 4. aruupa-kusala kamma. > > These four kamma can be re-classified into three sankhaaras. They are > apunnaabhi-sankhaara, punnaabhisankhaara, and anenjaabhi-sankhaara. > The names seem different because the indication of implication is > different. > > Here sankhaara is not sankhaara as it does not indicate avijjaa or > ignorance directly. But it indicates becoming or becoming of kamma. > So it is called becoming-of-kamma or simply becoming (bhava) and it > is not called here as sankhaara even though they are the same. .... S: I understand the only difference is that sankhara refers to past kamma (in previous lives) producing birth and vipaka cittas in this life and that bhava refers to present kamma which may bring results in future. All kamma (even the highest kinds of aruupa-kusala kamma) are indirectly conditioned by avijja and 'adding bricks' in samsara. Perhaps we agree here? Metta, Sarah ======== 56040 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Mike, I do not have any different opinion now, I think you have given some good explanations below :-D --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: Liberating understanding (pa.tivedha) must be conditioned both > by bhaavanaa (pa.tipatti) and by having heard the Dhamma (pariyatti ). > > > Knowing abhidhamma is view, we can get it by reading books. > > Wisdom or right view is a skill, we can only get it by developing > > (bhavana). 56041 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 653 ) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo (& Larry), --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Larry, > > Thanks for your reply. > > Eye-base and form-base are pair and work together. Likewise > mind-base and dhamma-base are pair and work together. > > The first pair sparks off as eye-consciousness. > The second pair sparks off as mind-consciousness. .... S: Are you sure this is the full picture, especially for eye-cosnciousness? Please take a look at this old message of Num's and add any comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16357 ... > Dhamma-base are > > 1. 16 subtle materials > 2. 52 mental factors > 3. nibbana > > Mind-base are appropriate consciousness. .... S: Yes I'll look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ========= 56042 From: "Pablo" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some questions on meditation practice cerini_pablo >You are right. Trying to train oneself to "think" in a certain way is > not the development of wisdom/understanding ... thank you for the valuable input. >Please keep > asking questions and sharing your comments. I' d very like to, but I must admit that DSG flies higher than my actual level of knowledge of dhamma and abidhamma, so it takes me much time to understand well what people here write, because I have to read and re-read many times the same message , consult pali dictionary , read reference texts ... anyway I' m receiving very profitable inputs from the various threads here, even if I walk a bit slooow ... :) 56043 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question jonoabb Hi James (and Joop) Thanks for elaborating on your original question. This is something I have wondered about too. As far as I know, there's no detailed explanation in the texts, although Sarah's passage from the Kathavatthu helps throw some light on it. buddhatrue wrote: >>I think your question is rather theoretical: If a layperson gets a >>arahant, he or she knows intuively what to do: going to a sangha >>or just keep calm where he or she is. Don"t you think a arahant >>has a perfect intuition? >> > >James: Oh yeah, of course. I'm sure an arahant would know what to >do and wouldn't need to go running to the texts to figure it out! ;- >)) My question was purely academic. I wondered what is is about >the householder life (no matter what form that householder life >might take) that is antithetical to being an arahant- to such an >extent that death/parinabbana would be the only option. > I don't think it's a case of: If he doesn't leave the household life he'll die. Rather: Unless he's going to die, he'll leave the household life. The reason is, I think, that the so-called homeless life is all he needs. From our perspective, the household life is a more comfortable one, the homeless life more arduous. From the perspective of the arahant, however, the so-called comforts of the household life have no appeal, and he is content with a far less cluttered life. >Then I also >wondered how it is that paccekabuddhas survive since they don't have >a sangha to join. What do they do? Become a hermit? But even then >they are technically living a householder life- except their house >is a cave instead of a brick and morter house ;-)) > The giving up of the household life does not depend on having a particular order to join. It can be done by anyone at any time. >>Monasticism (what have discussed about it before) is a cultural >>invention, a very good one but still something that belongs to the >>conventional realities and not to the ultimate realities. >> > >James: Thanks for this. I am more biased toward monasticism but I >am trying to keep an open mind. Now, since I realize that I cannot >become a monk, I have to make the best of the situation. However, I >don't want to fool myself into thinking that I can easily accomplish >all that a monastic can accomplish, if that isn't the case at all. >It seems that our viewpoints (yours, mine, and everyone's) are >influenced more by personal biases than facts. > > Monasticism and the homeless life are 2 different concepts. In the teachings, it is the giving up of the household life that is spoken of, not entering a monastery (some bhikkhus do, but not all). Jon 56044 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo Believe it or not, I'm not looking to debate the question of whether or not pannatti can be object of vipassana ;-)) I'm just trying to get clear what the texts you are relying on say. It is clear to me now that in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha vipassana bhavana is dealt with in the 'sangaha' on kammatthaana, so I guess there is no problem with your use of the term 'vipassana kammatthaana' (although I've not come across that actual term). As regards the 40 kammatthaana you have been describing in this series, however, I believe these are mentioned in the context of samatha bhavanaa only, and not in connection with vipassana bhavanaa. If you have any reference to the contrary, I'd be interested to see it. Thanks. Jon htootintnaing wrote: >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >>Hi Htoo >> >> > >As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have not seen 'kammatthaana' >used to refer to the object of vipassana bhavanaa, so if you are >talking about bhavanaa in general here (and not just samatha >bhavanaa), this may need revision. > >Jon >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dear Jon, > >You and all members may like if I say anything can be the object of >satipatthana. > >Let us forget pannatti for a while. Any object can be the object of >satipatthaana. All 40 object can well be the object of vipassanaa. > >With respect, > >Htoo Naing > > 56045 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, viññaa.na.m, attention Suan. abhidhammika Dear Nina, Robert K, Mike N, Howard, Matheesha and all How are you? Recently, I have been reading "Mahaanidaana Suttam" in Pali with intentional slowness. Of course, I have read this great Suttam previously, but this time round I did so with slow pace and probing mind. Nina, Robert, Mike, you three should also read it again with slow, probing interest. I discover many profound aspects of it in this great Diighanikaaya Suttam. For example, the Pali expression "anÞnÞamanÞnÞapaccayo", one of the causes or conditions expounded in Pa.t.thaana. And, to the delight of Abhidhamma students, the Buddha explained here the nature of sabhaava or lakkhanaa in Suttam style. Amazing, amazing! I understand Howard's situation in his continued conception of nibbaana as a form of consciousness by relying on only the isolated occurences of the term "vinÞnÞaa.nam" in Pali verses discussing nibbaana. The quality "luminosity" cannot be applied to non-physical nature such as consciousness (vinÞnÞaa.nam), mental associates (cetasikas), and nibbaanam. But, when the Buddha was in the poetic mode, he may naturally use the poetic license to describe a non-physical dhamma as though it has physical qualities such as luminosity. And, while in poetic mode, nothing can stop him describing a dhamma such as nibbaana in terms of the name of another dhamma such as "vinÞnÞaa.nam". In every language, understanding and enjoyment of poetry take time, especially if the language is not only foreign, but also very ancient such as Pali. I don't understand old Burmese much, nor old English. To uderstand such ancient languages or ancient versions of one's own language is a form of academic undertaking. The more so if they were in verse. In fact, ancient alchemy works in Burmese were intentionally written in verse so that only dedicated specialists can understand the full meaning and follow the procedures. So, Howard, my dear dhamma friend, if you are serious about understaning the Buddha's teachings on consciousness (vinÞnÞaa.nam), I recommend you to consult his numerous teachings in prose, rather than relying on sketchy statements in isolated, unrepresentative verses. For example, why not consult his teachings on the reverse procedure of Pa.ticcasammuppaada (Dependent Origination) where the Buddha formally teaches how consciousness can be brought to termination (nirodho). With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Hi howard and Rob K, Suan, Exactly, this is the post I had in mind. Howard the letters did not quite come out, read: viññaa.na.m. I know, Howard, that you also appreciate Suan's expertise (where is he?). Nina. 56046 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 812 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Samatha kammatthana is 'the zone or area or site or sphere or realm >where samatha-kamma works'. > >Vipassanaa kammatthana is 'the zone where vipassanaa-kamma works'. > I am very interested in this. Could you tell us more about the 'zone where vipassana-kamma works', according to the A-S. Thanks. >>Both have pannaa. But different. >> > >Agreed. But panna does not arise because of the undertaking of any >kind of mental exercise. > >Jon >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > >You are referring to vipassanaa-panna, I know. > I am referring to both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. In neither case does panna arise because of the undertaking of any kind of mental exercise. Panna can only arise if the object is appropriately contemplated/understood. I think that is axiomatic. >But panna always >arise with all ruupa-cittas that is rupa-kusala, rupa-vipaka, rupa- >kiriya and panna arise with all aruupa-cittas that is aruupa-kusala, >arupa-vipaka, arupa-kiriya, and panna always arise with lokuttaraa >cittas. > > Correct. None of these cittas can arise unless panna of the necessary level has been developed. It is not a case of these cittas coming with panna ;-)). Jon 56047 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha I was studying up and may have answered >my own question at least to some extent, but just to get some guidance: > >Cetasika ekaggataa is defined to be "[the] mental state [which] >prevents its adjuncts from dissipation and fixes them on one object . >. . 'It is the germ of all attentive, selected, focussed, or >concentrated consciousness,'" (pp. 108-109). > > Here is the passage from the same part of CMA (the revised translation and commentary of the Narada version from which your quote is taken): Ch II, par. # 2 The Universals (sabbacittasaadhaara.na) Guide "(5) One-pointedness (ekaggataa) -- This is the unification of the mind on its object. Although this factor comes into prominence in the jhaanas, where it functions as a jhaana factor, the Abhidhamma teaches that the germ of that capacity for mental unification is present in all types of consciousness, even the most rudimentary. It there functions as the factor which fixes the mind on its object. One-pointedness has non-wandering or non-distraction as its characteristic. Its function is to conglomerate or unite the associated states. It is manifested as peace, and its proximate cause is happiness." This brings out the fact that ekaggattaa as a cetasika 'concentrates' in a momentary sense (although it also plays a role as a jhana factor - one of the 7). Jon 56048 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 817 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >As discussed earlier in this thread, samatha bhavanaa means the >development of kusala tranquillity accompanied by panna. > >I would be interested to know what is the kusala involved in what you >have described here and, in particular, what is the panna. > >Jon >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > >Sarah asked the same question long time ago. > >The answer is 'I do not know'. According to AS rupa-jhaana, arupa- >jhana are kusala. Obviously their objects are pannatti with the only >exception of 2nd and 4th arupa jhaana who take paramattha dhamma. > > What you say here is correct. But these cittas cannot be developed unless samatha with panna is developed. And since there is no apparent kusala (especially panna) involved in staring at a disc of earth, I think we have to ask ourselves whether samatha is something much more than that. The object (in this case, earth kasina) has to be correctly contemplated, and it seems to me that the person must have already developed samatha to the degree that subtle akusala is not mistaken for kusala. In other words, the work with the kasina that we read about in the texts (such as the Vism) is not something for 'beginners', as I see it. Jon 56049 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and other irrealities (3) And dreams jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > ...It's not false to say (and the Buddha > would too) that there's a sun. But we have to know this is convenional language only. If we think we can really experience the sun, then it's wrong or false view. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== > Hallo Sarah It would be easier to agree if you don't use the "only" and say "But we have to know this is conventional language" dot Conventional language is not less than ultimate, they serve different goals. But I'm afraid you had not my message #55965 in your mind when you answered this Metta Joop 56050 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 648 ) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Htoo) - In a message dated 2/25/06 3:59:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: As I just mentioned, when you list the sa.laayatana in D.O. you are > discussing aayatana dhamma as I see it:). > > Here, by implication all aayatanas are referred to, even though they are > listed in this way, individualy. (see my last post). > ... > >vinnaana --> nama-rupa --> sa.laayatana --> phassa > > > >When you consider phassa yes there are three things coming together. > >Actually there are four things including phassa. They are > > > >1. citta > >2. object > >3. internal-sense-base (like eye) > >4. phassa (and other cetasikas) > .... > S: Or we can say there are the meeting of 4 ayatanas at moments of sense > experiencing in order for there to be contact. > ====================== It seems to me that an attempt to impose an Abidhammic parsing of this matter is needlessly, and incorrectly, confusing this matter. The dependent-origination linkage of sa.laayatana --> phassa asserts that at any moment one of the six sense media is "a" requisite condition for phassa. As for phassa itself, the Buddha defines that mental operation as a cooccurence/confluence of three phenomena, not 4 or more; specifically, phassa is the coming together of sense medium, sense object, and sense consciousness, all of the same sort: visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory, or mental. It is the coming together of those three that is called "phassa". Nothing else is involved in the nature of phassa, and certainly phassa isn't the coming together of 4 things one of which is itself! Perhaps I'm missing something here. It seems to me that some contortions are being attempted where there is no need. What am I missing here? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56051 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, viññaa.na.m, attention Suan. upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 2/25/06 9:45:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@... writes: > I understand Howard's situation in his continued conception of > nibbaana as a form of consciousness by relying on only the isolated > occurences of the term "vinÞnÞaa.nam" in Pali verses discussing > nibbaana. > ====================== It wasn't my intention to be identifying nibbana with consciousness. My point was merely with regard to the inherent luminosity of consciousness to mean that the defilements are adventitious, and not inherent. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56052 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aññamañña-paccaya, attention Suan. nilovg Dear Suan, Thank you very much. On my computer I have 'anÞnÞamanÞnÞapaccayo', but I understand that these f stand for ñ, thus: aññamañña paccaya. Please would you write more on this and also on sabhaava or lakkhanaa in Suttam style? With appreciation, Nina. op 25-02-2006 15:43 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@...: > > Nina, Robert, Mike, you three should also read it again with slow, > probing interest. I discover many profound aspects of it in this > great Diighanikaaya Suttam. For example, the Pali > expression "anÞnÞamanÞnÞapaccayo", one of the causes or conditions > expounded in Pa.t.thaana. And, to the delight of Abhidhamma > students, the Buddha explained here the nature of sabhaava or > lakkhanaa in Suttam style. Amazing, amazing! > 56053 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 647 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo, I think all aspects of the teachings have to be in conformity with each other. So whatever we read is about the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas etc, even though particular aspects are stressed in certain suttas, in the Vinaya or in parts of the Abhidhamma. Metta, Sarah =========== Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for the reply. I agree. This is why some people fall into the pit. That is holding a single point of dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 56054 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 662 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo, S: I understand the only difference is that sankhara refers to past kamma (in previous lives) producing birth and vipaka cittas in this life and that bhava refers to present kamma which may bring results in future. All kamma (even the highest kinds of aruupa-kusala kamma) are indirectly conditioned by avijja and 'adding bricks' in samsara. Perhaps we agree here? Metta, Sarah ----------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, I agree. Sankhaara is past dhamma. Please time line that I posted. Bhava is present life dhamma which is also kamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 56055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 653 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo (& Larry), > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > Dear Larry, > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > Eye-base and form-base are pair and work together. Likewise > > mind-base and dhamma-base are pair and work together. > > > > The first pair sparks off as eye-consciousness. > > The second pair sparks off as mind-consciousness. > .... > S: Are you sure this is the full picture, especially for > eye-cosnciousness? > > Please take a look at this old message of Num's and add any comments: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16357 > ... > > Dhamma-base are > > > > 1. 16 subtle materials > > 2. 52 mental factors > > 3. nibbana > > > > Mind-base are appropriate consciousness. > .... > S: Yes > > I'll look forward to any further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sara, Thanks. I will read Nun's post later as I do not have much time. With respect, Htoo Naing 56056 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo Hi Htoo Believe it or not, I'm not looking to debate the question of whether or not pannatti can be object of vipassana ;-)) I'm just trying to get clear what the texts you are relying on say. It is clear to me now that in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha vipassana bhavana is dealt with in the 'sangaha' on kammatthaana, so I guess there is no problem with your use of the term 'vipassana kammatthaana' (although I've not come across that actual term). As regards the 40 kammatthaana you have been describing in this series, however, I believe these are mentioned in the context of samatha bhavanaa only, and not in connection with vipassana bhavanaa. If you have any reference to the contrary, I'd be interested to see it. Thanks. Jon ----------- Dear Jon, Pannatti cannot be 'the direct object of vipassanaa'. But they may be the preparatory one. Vipassanaa only see 'reality'. That is why vipassanaa see 'anatta'. Samatha do not have 'the pannaa of vipassanaa', which The Buddha discovered even though all samatha do have 'pannindriya' and they are tihetuka cittas. Samatha will not see anatta. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56057 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 812 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Samatha kammatthana is 'the zone or area or site or sphere or realm >where samatha-kamma works'. > >Vipassanaa kammatthana is 'the zone where vipassanaa-kamma works'. > I am very interested in this. Could you tell us more about the 'zone where vipassana-kamma works', according to the A-S. Thanks. --------------------------- Dear Jon, It is very clear that the object of samatha are all pannatti except '2nd and 4th aruupa-jhaana' according to AS. Vipassanaa see only naama or ruupa whose characters are seen by vipassanaa pannaa. With respect, Htoo Naing 56058 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 817 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >As discussed earlier in this thread, samatha bhavanaa means the > >development of kusala tranquillity accompanied by panna. > > > >I would be interested to know what is the kusala involved in what you > >have described here and, in particular, what is the panna. > > > >Jon > >------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > >Htoo: > > > >Sarah asked the same question long time ago. > > > >The answer is 'I do not know'. According to AS rupa-jhaana, arupa- > >jhana are kusala. Obviously their objects are pannatti with the only > >exception of 2nd and 4th arupa jhaana who take paramattha dhamma. > > > > > > What you say here is correct. But these cittas cannot be developed > unless samatha with panna is developed. And since there is no apparent > kusala (especially panna) involved in staring at a disc of earth, I > think we have to ask ourselves whether samatha is something much more > than that. > > The object (in this case, earth kasina) has to be correctly > contemplated, and it seems to me that the person must have already > developed samatha to the degree that subtle akusala is not mistaken for > kusala. > > In other words, the work with the kasina that we read about in the texts > (such as the Vism) is not something for 'beginners', as I see it. > > Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Beginner here just means 'beginners of swimming who have learned how to swin but not yet in touch with water'. With respect, Htoo Naing 56059 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, viññaa.na.m, attention Suan. upasaka_howard Hi again, Suan - I think you wrote what you wrote about my identifying nibbana as a form of consciousness due to the following that I wrote to Matheesha: ____________________ With regard to "Nibbana is the fading away of that luminosity," I'm afraid I disagree. Please read the suttas (I can't recall references) that speak of vi~n~nana anidassanam, unmanifestive consciousness, that is radiant all around! ------------------------------------ My point here was not to identify nibbana as a kind of knowing. I was presuming here that the "unmanifestive consciousness, that is radiant all around" is the undefiled citta that results when nibbana has been fully realized. Such a citta clings to nothing, is caught by nothing - neither within nor without, is round-about, all-encompassing, and is radiantly clear. It's nature is more that of light than darkness. It is awakened mind. Nibbana itself cannot be identified as any sort of consciousness or any other conditioned phenomenon, nor can it be limited in any way but can only be pointed to by such locutions as "'the cool cave", "the sublime", "the unconditioned", "the deathless", "supreme emptiness", and "the real." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56060 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 833 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii When parikamma nimitta or 'preparatory sign' arises the mind is more or less tranqulised. But not fully. This happen because the mind frequently slips into sideway. The nature of the mind that is our mind is that it tends to follow the object for craving. So as soon as the mind is tightly controlled then it starts toi agitates. That is it wanders. Moreover the mind may do many other things apart from wandering. There are five kinds of hindranece. They are sensuous thought, aversive thought, sluggish-torpid thought, wandering-worrying thought and suspicious thought. These five hindrances again are fought by the five generals. These five generals are five jhaana factors or five jhaananga. They are initial-application (vitakka), sustained-application (vicaara), joy (piiti), tranquility (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekaggataa). May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56061 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana scottduncan2 "Right, no forcing is possible, the citta and cetasikas arise and are then gone, before you can even think of forcing. As to meditation, it is to be known that the citta is the source of mental development. Kusala citta is not accompanied by lobha, dosa, moha. It is accompanied by alobha, adosa and in the case of mental development by understanding, amoha or non-delusion. The place of meditation is wherever you may be, and you can learn the characteristic of whatever dhamma appears through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. This is not different in the USA or Bangkok or Holland. When visible object appears there is the world appearing through the eyes. But we live mostly in the world of thinking about people and things, as in a dream. It is good to realize this, it can be the beginning of a cure." Dear Nina, Thank you very much. It is my initial failure, but would you be so kind as to use the Pali to denote which meaning you are attributing to the english "meditation." I would think "bhaavaana," although this would then have to include samatha-bhaavaana and vipassana-bhaavaana. At any rate, this clarification would help. I don't think I mean "sati" but this likely arises being cetasika, I believe. I think that I am learning by experience that "the place of meditation is wherever [one] may be." Kusula citta can arise wherever. I've been surprised at the experience of kusula citta in locations other than on the meditation cushion, where I had become accustomed to the experience, believing them to be a function of that whole "ritual." I learned that these experiences are not location-specific, are actually rather robust therefore in that regard. (Hopefully I did not appear too odd, standing in a book-store at the time, as I stood with surprise to note what seemed to be arising.) I think I still need to understand the factors which condition this arising. Perhaps, it occurs to me, I need to stop wondering about this since it is subtly part of a clinging to self-concept: an actor who causes to arise. I'm pursuing this aspect now with Jon, in another thread. Thank you very much for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 56062 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok scottduncan2 "Here is the passage from the same part of CMA (the revised translation and commentary of the Narada version from which your quote is taken): Ch II, par. # 2 The Universals (sabbacittasaadhaara.na)Guide '(5) One-pointedness (ekaggataa) -- This is the unification of the mind on its object. Although this factor comes into prominence in the jhaanas, where it functions as a jhaana factor, the Abhidhamma teaches that the germ of that capacity for mental unification is present in all types of consciousness, even the most rudimentary. It there functions as the factor which fixes the mind on its object. One-pointedness has non-wandering or non-distraction as its characteristic. Its function is to conglomerate or unite the associated states. It is manifested as peace, and its proximate cause is happiness.' This brings out the fact that ekaggattaa as a cetasika 'concentrates' in a momentary sense (although it also plays a role as a jhana factor - one of the 7)." Dear Jon, Thank you. I was neglecting the fact that ekaggataa is one of seven cetasikas which arise with each citta. In the quote, what is meant by "associated states?" Does ekaggattaa cetasika function to unify the six other Universals? Or to unify the states in relation to the object? Sincerely, Scott. 56063 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, viññaa.na.m, attention Suan. upasaka_howard Hi again, Suan (and all) - For me personally, nibbana as supreme voidness is the descriptive pointing that rings most clearly. As I see it, all conditioned dhammas as they appear from the samsaric perspective are self-existent entities with essence/own-being with atta. But that is a deluded, defiled view. The reality is their voidness, their utter lacking of self or own being. Nibbana is supreme emptiness and it is reality as opposed to this delusive world that is a multiplicity of separate, independent things. One realizes nibbana or "awakens to it" by the uprooting of the three poisons, and most especially ignorance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56064 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat nilovg Hi Jon, James, Joop. I do not know if this can be of any help in the matter? I thought I repost an old post on this, tranlated from the Thai: The Parinnibbåna of the Arahat who is a Layman. Introduction. This was one of the subjects of discussion between King Milinda and the arahat Någasena, as discribed in the ³Questions of King Milinda². ... This issue deals with the parinibbåna of the arahat who is a layman. There are two kinds of parinibbåna: the full extinction of defilements (kilesa parinibbåna) and the full extinction of the khandhas (khanda parinibbåna). In this issue, parinibbåna stands for the full extinction of the khandhas, the final passing away of the arahat. He will not be reborn. Issue of Analysis : will a layman who attains the excellent quality of arahatship but who does not become a monk attain parinibbåna on that day, or within seven days? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue : A layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk will attain parinibbåna on that very day. The source which supports this conclusion : ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2: If a Householder attains Arahatship. Explanation of the reasons for this conclusion : ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2, explains clearly that a layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk must attain parinibbåna on that very day. The text states: ³Revered Någasena, you say: ŒThere are two bourns [2], not another, for a householder who has attained arahantship: either, that very day he goes forth (into homelessness) or he attains final nibbåna. That day is not able to pass (without one or other of these events taking place). If revered Någasena, he obtain neither a teacher nor a preceptor nor a bowl and robe on that day, could that arahant go forth of himself, or could he let the day pass? Or if some other arahant of psychic power arrived could he let him go forth? Or would he attain final nibbåna?² ³An arahant, sire, cannot go forth of oneself. On going forth of oneself one falls into theft [3]. Nor could he let the day pass. Whether another arahant arrived or not, he would attain final nibbåna that very day.² ³Well then, revered Någasena, the peaceful state of arahantship is given up if the life of him who attains it in this manner is carried away.² ³Unequal [4], sire, are the attributes of a householder. The attributes being unequal, it is owing to the weakness of his attributes that a householder who has attained arahanship either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day. This is not a defect in arahantship, sire, this is a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness of the attributes. It is sire, as the food that guards the lifespan and protects the life of all beings yet carries away the life of him whose stomach is out of order and who has a sluggish and weak digestion, because it is not properly digested. This, sire, is not a defect in the food, this is a defect in the stomach, namely a weakness in its heat. Even so, sire, the attributes being unequal, it is owing to the weakness of his attributes that a householder who has attained arahantship either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day. This is not a defect in arahantship, sire, this is a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness of the attributes. Or, sire, as a heavy stone may be put on top of a small stalk of grass which in its weakness is broken and collapses, even so, sire, the householder who has attained arahanship (but) being unable to sustain arahantship because of that attribute (of weakness) either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day. Or, sire, as a man who is feeble and weak, of lowly birth and of little merit, comes to naught and to ruin the moment he has acquired a great and mighty kingdom, falters and is unable to sustain the authority, even so, sire, the householder who has attained arahantship is unable to sustain arahantship because of that attribute (of weakness), and for that reason he either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day.² ³It is good, revered Någasena; so it is, therefore do I accept it.² ****** Footnotes 2. Bourne is the translation of the Pali: gati, which can mean destiny, course, behaviour. Here it could mean: course. 3. This refers to living in communion as it were by theft, being unworthy of it, since he did not follow what was prescribed. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² I, 125, that there are for the monk four kinds of use of the requisites: use as a theft, use as a debt, use as an inheritance and use as a master. We read: ³Herein, use by one who is unvirtuous and makes use (of the requisites), even sitting in the midst of the community, is called Œuse as a theft¹.² Use without reviewing them with mindfulness is use as a debt. Use by ariyans who are not arahats is use as inheritance and use by arahats is use as a master. 4. The state of a layman cannot be compared to the monk¹s state, it is not equal to it. *** Nina. op 25-02-2006 15:28 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > Hi James (and Joop) > > Thanks for elaborating on your original question. This is something I > have wondered about too. As far as I know, there's no detailed > explanation in the texts, although Sarah's passage from the Kathavatthu > helps throw some light on it. > > 56065 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 653 ) nilovg Hi Sarah, Htoo. op 25-02-2006 10:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Please take a look at this old message of Num's and add any comments: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16357 > ... --------- N: the message of Num: ---------- Nina: I would think: eyesense is dvara for the whole eye-door process. It is vatthu, place of origin, for eye-consciousness only. I translated from Thai in Dhamma Issues: Issue of analysis: Is the eyesense (the cakkhu pasåda rúpa) åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process or only at the moment when seeing (cakkhuviññåùa) arises? And the same for the other sense-organs. ... Conclusion regarding this issue: In the five sense-door processes the eye-sense (cakkhu pasåda rúpa) etc. is åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process, not only at the moment seeing (cakkhuviññåùa) arises. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Sammohavinodaní, the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 2, Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), Suttanta Division. 2. Visuddhimagga, Ch XV, Description of the Bases and Elements. The reason for this conclusion is given by the ³Dispeller of Delusion², Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), and the Visuddhimagga (XV, 10). We read in the ³Visuddhimagga²: ³For only the åyatana of the eye-base is the door of arising, and only the åyatana of visible object is the object of the consciousness group (viññåùa kåya) comprised in a cognitive series containing eye-consciousness.² This shows that the rúpa of eyesense (cakkhuppasåda rúpa) is the eye-door and the åyatana of the eye (cakkhåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process and that evenso visible object is the åyatana of visible object (rúpåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process. The reason is that both the eye-sense and the visible object are realities which have not fallen away yet and that they are ³associating² at each moment of citta of the eye-door process.> Nina. 56066 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) nilovg Hi Jon, Htoo, Yes, in the Commentary. Jim mentioned this once. Nina. op 25-02-2006 15:38 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > It is clear to me now that in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha vipassana > bhavana is dealt with in the 'sangaha' on kammatthaana, so I guess there > is no problem with your use of the term 'vipassana kammatthaana' > (although I've not come across that actual term). 56067 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 653 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Htoo. > op 25-02-2006 10:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > > > Please take a look at this old message of Num's and add any comments: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16357 > > ... > --------- > N: the message of Num: eye-base is a dvara for only seeing consciousness, but without the eye-base, > the adverting cannot arise to perform its functions and the rest of the > cittas in the process cannot arise.> > ---------- > Nina: I would think: eyesense is dvara --------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much. With respect, Htoo 56068 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 653 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo (& Larry), > -------------------------- Dear Sarah, This is the post you quoted [ Nun's post and part of Nina's] 'Briefly from Vibhanga, Vism and Abms: ayatana means 1) a dwelling place (nivasa, nissayapaccaya) for cittas and cetasikas, 2) a birthplace (sa~njati) for cittas and cetasikas, 3) bringing along (akara) 4) a meeting place (samosarana) for cittas, cetasikas, dvara, and arammana, and 5) a root (hetu, karana). In an eye-door process (cakhudvaravithi), the vithi starts at an adverting citta (avajjana citta). Although the visible object (ruparammana), and the eye-base (cakhupasada) have arisen before the process starts, as purejatapaccayas. The 3 bhavanga cittas are not really a part of the process but was put in as a reference for the beginning of the object and base. Let me review very briefly. 12 ayatanas: 5 sense-bases, and their correspondent objects ( = 10) ayatanas. The manayatana(11) refers to all citta, and dhammayatana(12) covers cetasikas, subtle rupas, and nibbana. From the definitions of ayatana above, ayatana refers to the realities, which exist at that present moment to perform each own function. Pannatti is not counted as ayatana b/c it's not a reality. Arammana can be ayatana if it still presents at that present moment. ++++++++++++++ An eye-door process: At the 3 moments of bhanvagas, there are 2 ayatanas: manayatana (bhavanga citta itself) and dhammayatana (the cetasikas that are accompaning bhavanga citta). At the adverting consciousness moment, there are 4 ayatanas met. The adverting consciousness is manayatana(1), the cetasikas accommpanying adverting consciousness are dhammayatana(2), the visible-object is rupayatana (3), the pasadarupa is cakhayatana(4). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: At the time when adverting consciousness arise 4 aayatanas are there. 1. manayatana 2. dhammayatana 3. rupayatana 4. cakkhaayatana I am thinking whether dhammaayatana here is true or not because the object is ruupayatana and not cetasika even though cetasikas of adverting consciousness can be dhammaayatana when they are contemplated and become the object. Please check with the definition of aayatana above. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56069 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:02pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 834 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii There are battles against two troops. They are the troop of kusala and another one is the troop of akusala. The troop of akusala in samatha bhaavanaa are 1. 'kaamacchanda niivara.na' or sensuous thought/thinking 2. 'byaapaada niivara.na' or aversive thought/thinking 3. 'thina-middha niivara.na or 'sloth-torpored thought/thinking 4. 'uddhacca-kukkucca niivara.na or 'wandering-worrying thought 5. 'viicikicchaa niivara.na or 'suspicious thought/thinking The troop of kusala in samatha bhaavanaa are 1. 'vitakka' or initial-application 2. 'vicaara' or sustained-application 3. 'piiti' or joy/rapture 4. 'sukha' or tranquility 5. 'ekaggataa' or 'one-pointedness Kaamacchanda niivara.na (sensuous thought) is attacked by 'ekaggataa' (one-pointedness). Because when the samaadhi of samatha bhaavanaa is well concentrated on samatha-object there is no pleasure on sensuous object and there is no sensuous thining so no sensuous thought. In this way 'ekaggataa' cracks kaamacchanda-niivara.na. Byaapaada-niivara.na (aversive thought) is attacked by 'piit' (rapture/joy).When peace in the arammana of samatha-bhavana increases, piti would be increasingly blissful with the tranquility, preventing vengefulness and displeasure from arising during that period. Thina-middha niivara.na is attacked by 'vitakka' (initial- application). Because when the vitakka-cetasika increasingly addresses only the arammana of samatha-bhavana continually, the discouragement and drowsiness could not occur. Uddhacca-kukkucca niivara.na is attacked by 'sukha' (tranquility). Because while there is happiness in the arammana of samatha-bhavana, the trouble, worries and agitation in other arammanas cannot arise. Because of this powerful general 'sukha' uddhacca-kukkucca niivara.na is cracked and crushed. Viicikicchaa-niivara.na is attacked by 'vicaara' (sustained application). When vicara-cetasika continually supports the arammana of samatha-bhavana that vitakka-cetasika addresses, doubt and uncertainty about realities and their causes and results cannot arise. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56070 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:13pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 835 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii In practice of samatha while we are trying to achieve tranquility there are fighting against two troops. They are akusala and kusala. As both are powerful the results will depend on which troop is much more powerful in the battle. For the practitioners they have to know who are who. Otherwise they will not achieve anything at all. To know these dhamma already means 'right understanding' whether this is expressed or not expressed. Even before The Buddha there were people who could attain jhaana. They did have panna. They did have the panna that can differentiate between kusala and akusala even though they may or may not be able to communicate these matters with a bit dumber people. Those people like hermits who were recluses deserted all worldly possessions and left the world ; appraoch the forest and meditate on kasi.na or brahmavihaara or some other kamma.t.thaana and they attained jhaana. Their jhaana did have pannindriya cetasika. The difference is that pannaa in pre-Buddha era is not connected with anatta while Buddha era including the present moment most pannaa in samatha have connection to anatta taught by The Buddha. There is hardly any school who purely teaches samatha without connection with The Buddha teachings. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56071 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:24pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 836 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii In this series of samatha bhaavanaa or tranquility meditation already discussed things or dhamma are 1. kamma.t.thaana (samatha & vipassanaa) 2. bhaavanaa (parikamma, upacaara, appanaa in samatha) 3. samatha (tranquility) 4. vipassanaa (insight) 5. nimitta (parikamma, uggaha, pa.tbhaaga) 6. samaadhi(parikamma, upacaara, appanaa) When pa.tibhaaga nimitta or 'counter sign' which is similar to mental image (of the original visual image) arises the samaadhi (concentration) at present at that moment is called upacaara samaadhi. The bhaavanaa at that time is also upacaara bhaavanaa. This bhaavana is almost the same with appanaa bhaavana with the only exception that upacaara bhaavana can be movable. Appanaa bhaavana is very stable and when this happen it can be said that the object and the mind are almost fused and merged into one thing that is called jhaana. There are requisite to attain appanaa samaadhi. Upacaara samaadhi is accessible for all puggala or all kinds of individuals if they properly practise with a good teacher. But appanaa bhaavanaa has many restrictions and not everyone on this earth can attain appanaa bhaavanaa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56072 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:40pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 837 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii There are obstacles to jhaana-magga-phala. If there is anyone of these then jhaana cannot arise. This means that there cannot be any appanaa bhaavanaa. But upacaara bhaavanaa is still possible for these people. When there is no appanaa bhaavanaa there is no 1st jhaana at least. And there can never be sotapatti magga. So there cannot be any of higher lokuttaraa cittas. These obstacles are 1. people with vipaka as obstacles or whose patisandhi-citta is dvi-hetuka that is without panna-cetasika.(Anguttara Nikaya, Chakka Nipata, Bhabba Sutta and Avaranata Sutta.) 2. people with kamma as obstacles or have performed one of the five anantariyakammas, which are obstacles to heaven, magga and phala. The five anantariyakammas are matricide, patricide, arahanticide, causing contusion to The Buddha and destroying the unity of The Sangha to perform sangha-kamma together. 3. people with kilesa as obstacles or people who have the three niyata-miccha-ditthis, namely natthika-ditthi, ahetuka-ditthi and akiriya-ditthi. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56073 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:05pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 839 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii There is a boundry between upacaara bhaavanaa (proximate cultivation) and appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation). Here I use 'portal'. Because appanaa bhaavanaa is 'the portal to jhaana'. That is once someone attain a moment of appanaa bhaavanaa then he can be said that he has attained highership. This attainment of highership is because of appanaa bhaavana. So it is the gateway or the portal to jhaana. So I give it the name 'portal cultivation'. But just a single moment of appanaa bhaavanaa cannot give rise to any jhaana-samaapatti. Upacaara bhaavana takes the object pa.tibhaaga nimitta or counter sign or counter image (of mental image). When this sign arises all cittas arise see that object are upacaara bhaavanaa cittas and these bhaavanaa cittas are totally free of all 5 hindrances. To happen this all 5 opponents of 5 hindrances have to be working properly. So in case of upacaara bhaavanaa there are 1. vitakka 2. vicaara 3. piiti 4. sukha 5. ekaggataa and there is no 1. kaamacchada-niivara.na 2. byaapaada-niivara.na 3. thina-middha-niivara.na 4. uddhacca-kukkucca-niivara.na 5. viicikicchaa-niivara.na and cittas are all taking pa.tibhaaga nimitta. All these cittas are javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness. We are not talking on any other vipaaka cittas here. Thye boundry between upacaara and appanaa will be discussed in the coming post. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56074 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:25pm Subject: Blossoming htootintnaing Blossoming (25.02.06) When they come they announce. When they announce they set up. When they set up they work. When they work they create. When they create they parentise. When they parentise they produce. When they produce they cause. When they cause they condition. When they condition they are paccaya. Paccaya sikkha metta nibbhava. HTOO NAING [25.02.06] 56075 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:29pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 838 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii If there is no obstacle (assumingly) then the practitioner will soon be having appanaa samaadhi. Before this samaadhi is upacaara samaadhi. The bhaavanaa when there is upacaara samadhi is there is called upacaara bhaavanaa. This upacaara bhaavana takes the object 'pa.tibhaaga nimitta'. Here the object is pure and the citta is also pure. That is there is no hindrances at all in upacaara samaadhi. All 40 kinds of kamma.t.thaana (samatha) can give rise to upacaara bhaavanaa. That is why once I told that samatha-bhaavanaa can well be the object of satipa.t.thaana or the object for vipassanaa bhaavanaa. In which way? By contemplating on the jhaana cittas or by contemplating on upacaara samaadhi cittas. Here I am drawing a line for boundries to three bhaavanaas. Three bhaavanaas are parikamma bhaavanaa or 'preparatory cultivation', upacaara bhaavanaa or 'proximate cultivation', and appanaa bhavanaa or 'portal cultivation'. The border line between parikamma bhavanaa and upacaara bhaavanaa is the arising of pa.tibhaaga nimitta or counter image or counter sign. As soon as this sign arises parikamma bhaavana becomes upacaara bhaavanaa instantaneously. As parikamma bhaavana is preparation for more stable samaadhi which is upacaara samaadhi it will not be as perfect as upacaara samaadhi even though the bhaavana is the same in terms of associated dhamma cetasikas. That is there might be interposition of many non- bhaavanaa cittas when the practitioner is just having parikamma bhaavana. When there arise upacaara bhaavana the samaadhi becomes more stable and there is no interposition of any akusala dhamma at all. So upacaara bhaavanaa is as pure as appanaa bhavanaa in terms of purity. The problem of 'whether jhaana is required for magga naana' arise because of differences in definition. If upacaara samaadhi is defined as jhaana then all 8 lokuttaraa cittas will need jhaana as a requisite. But if jhaana is defined as appanaa samaadhi then I do not believe jhaana is a requisite for magga or other lokuttaraa cittas. Because the objects are different. There is a border line or boundry between upacaara samaadhi and appanaa samaadhi. As this message is already long this matter will be dealt with in the coming post. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56076 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:32pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 840 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii There is almost no difference between upacaara samaadhi and appanaa samaadhi. But there is some difference between upacaara bhaavanaa and appanaa bhaavanaa. The simile here that may work for these ideas are like this: when a man is lying he cannot run from lying position. when a man is standing he is ready to walk, ready to run, ready to sit down and if he wants he may lie down from standing. When in upacaara bhaavana cittas are flexible and they may go anywhere with ease. That is they may go back to parikamma bhaavanaa. They may even go back to kaama objects. Or equally they may go into appanaa bhaavanaa. More importantly they may go into lokuttaraa zone. When in paanaa bhaavanaa, cittas are less flexible. At that time the mind is not shakable and it is stuck with the object. It is like the man who is lying down even though it seems more powerful than upacaara samaadhi and upacaara bhaavanaa. If he wants to stand and run into lokuttaraa zone then he must stand first and then run into lokuttaraa zone. So when in absorption there is no possibility of seeing any of ruupa or naama and there is no possibility of seeing any of anicca or dukkha or anatta. So the practitioners have to exit from their jhaana. As soon as they exit they are no more in appanaa jhaana. But they are still in upacaara bhaavanaa and this is like the man who is standing and ready to do anything. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56077 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:42pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 841 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii When upacaara samaadhi arise the mind is so clear that it can see it object very clearly and it is totally free of any of kusala let alone attachment or lobha here. Because when there is upacaara samaadhi lobha cannot approach. If attachment arises this already means that the practitioner is out of upacaara bhaavanaa. So when it is out of the zone of purity it can happen anything. As this is true we do not need to worry whether there is citta with somanassa and wrong view or citta with somanassa and pannaa. There is the boundry between upacaara bhaavanaa and appanaa bhaavanaa. This margin is quite thin. It is so thin that the individual may not know the arising of appanaa bhaavanaa when it arises for the first time. This is true especially for samatha. Because samatha is almost always easily destroyed by many outside and inside enemies. So before there can be destruction the practitioner has to steadfastly try to master the bhaavanaa that he attains. Otherwise all his samaadhi may go back to lower one and finally it is no more different from other non-practitioners. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56078 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat cherry_avium Hi Nina and All, I got some questions on this :] You explained two kind of parinibbanas below. Which parinibbana is meant in the statement 'the layman have to attain parinibbana on that very same day'? Is arahatship and parinibbana the same thing? Can't we take the meaning of 'the layman who have become arahat have to attain parinibbana' as 'the extinction of the defilements have to attained the same day after the attainment of arahatta magga and phala? In Dhammapada it is said bhikkhu is the attitude not the robe. Can't we call a layman with an arahat attitude a bhikkhu? What do we mean by layman here, is it the dress or the attitude? Thank you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > This was one of the subjects of discussion between King Milinda and the > arahat Någasena, as discribed in the ³Questions of King Milinda². . .. > This issue deals with the parinibbåna of the arahat who is a layman. There > are two kinds of parinibbåna: the full extinction of defilements (kilesa > parinibbåna) and the full extinction of the khandhas (khanda parinibbåna). > In this issue, parinibbåna stands for the full extinction of the khandhas, > the final passing away of the arahat. He will not be reborn. > > Issue of Analysis : will a layman who attains the excellent quality of > arahatship but who does not become a monk attain parinibbåna on that day, or > within seven days? > > Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue : A layman who attains > arahatship but who does not become a monk will attain parinibbåna on that > very day. 56079 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:47pm Subject: Truth Triumphs ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Honesty is the Sixth Mental Perfection: Honesty is Total Trust Honesty is Truthfulness Honesty is Guarantee Honesty is Confidence Honesty is Consistence Honesty is Convincing Honesty is Certainty Honesty is Credibility Honesty is Reliability Honesty is Authenticity Honesty is Integrity Honesty is Accuracy Honesty is Commitment Honesty is Sincerity Honesty is Security Honesty is Reality Honesty is a Must... Honesty characteristically never deceives, it's function is to verify the actual & factual, it's manifestation is excellence... Sincere exact truthfulness is the proximate cause of honesty! All evil states & crimes converge upon transgression of Truth... Devotion to Truth is the only reliable foundation of Nobility! Like The Buddha demand of your own mind: You have to give me an honest answer, understand?! I won't accept anything phoney. And once you've answered, you have to stick to that very answer & not slide around. Don't be a traitor to yourself. Be sober & straight. Therefore: Undertake this 4th training rule of avoiding all false speech... If one is not true to the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha's teachings will not be true to oneself, either... That Dhamma, which is used only as a costume, a uniform or alibi, does not bear fruit, as it's intention is not true! Honesty, however, makes you quite worthy of respect. If one is painstakingly honest towards oneself, one is also meticulously honest towards others. If one however deceives oneself, believing own lies, one automatically also deceives others, betraying them. Honesty, however, makes you quite worthy of respect. Make an island of yourself, be your own light & illumination, make yourself your only safe haven; there is no other protection. Make Truth your only island, make Truth your sole refuge; make Truth your lone lamp; there is no other luminosity. Digha Nikaya, 16 The straight person, self-controlled, keeping precepts, open & honest, is both worthy & fit for the yellow robe. The hiding person, uncontrolled, immoral, keeping secrets, not honest, is neither worthy nor fit for the yellow robe. Dhammapada 9+10 Overcome the furious by friendship; overcome the evil one by goodness; overcome the stasher by generosity; overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 The one who destroys life; The one who speaks false; The one who takes what is not given; The one who mates with another's partner; The one who is addicted to drugs and alcohol; Such one - even in this world - digs up his own root !!! Dhammapada 246-47 They who falsely declare: "That happened" about what did not happen, or: "I did not do that" about what they actually did, they earn themselves a ticket to grilling in Hell. Dhammapada 306 When the Blessed One heard about the king's spies, who for money stole information from others, he explained: One should not take just any job. One should not be another's man. One should not live dependent upon another. One should not sell the truth for money. Udana VI - 2 The Bodhisatta was once caught by a man-eater, which sat him free on the condition that he returned the next day. He kept his word & did so & much later remembered: Protecting this way of truth, having given up my life & kingdom, I thereby set free 100 captured nobles, as the man-eater lost his nerve. In honesty I had thereby reached ultimate perfection. Mahasutasoma-Jataka no. 537 ______________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 56080 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 383- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] Another group of akusala dhammas are the defilements, kilesas. They are dirty, unclean, impure; they defile or torment the mind. The following ten akusala dhammas have been classified as defilements (Dhammasangaùi, §1229)(1) : greed (lobha) hate (dosa) ignorance (moha) conceit (måna) wrong view (diììhi) doubt (vicikicchå) sloth (thína) restlessness (uddhacca) shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) We can use the word defilement or kilesa in a wider sense and then we mean all akusala dhammas. But when defilements are classified as a particular group only the above mentioned akusala dhammas are meant. Torpor (middha), stinginess (macchariya), regret (kukkucca) and envy (isså) have not been classified in this group. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 49) states about defilements: “They are so called because they are themselves defiled and they defile the states associated with them.” Shamelessness and recklessness which have not been classified in one of the other groups are classified among the defilements. Shamelessness has no shame of akusala and recklessness does not fear its consequences. They arise with each akusala citta, they defile citta and the accompanying cetasikas. There are many degrees of shamelessness and recklessness. Some people are ashamed of gross defilements and they fear their consequences, but they are not ashamed of akusala citta which is not of the intensity to motivate unwholesome deeds. For example, when we are at this moment forgetful of realities such as seeing or hearing it is evident that we have no shame of neglectfulness with regard to the development of right understanding. *** 1) See also the Book of Analysis, Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §966. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56081 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58. Intro: Ignorance is moha cetasika that arises with each akusala citta. It is not mine or self. We do not have ignorance but it arises with akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions for it. The paragraphs 1-58, preceding the detailed exposition of the Dependent Origination, are a general introduction and an analysis of different word meanings. We read in §4: < The states [dhammas] that are conditions should be understood as the dependent origination. The states generated by such and such conditions are dependently-originated states.> In §22 it is explained: N: Dhammas arise because of the combination of several conditions and when the conditioning factors fall away the dependently arisen dhammas also fall way, they cannot last. In § 23: <...the word Œorigination¹ indicates the arising of states, since these occur when their conditions combine, and it shows how to prevent annihilationism, etc...> N: The arising of dhammas when there are conditions for their arising prevents annihilation. In the following paragraph it is stated that the expression dependent origination represents the middle way. In § 36 it is explained why ignorance is the first link: ŒBut there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as the root cause. What way is that? When it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the round [of becoming]. The Buddha gave ignorance and craving for becoming as starting points of the exposition on the round of becoming. In § 37 the reason is given: Text Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58: [III. DETAILED EXPOSITION] [(i) Ignorance] 58. According to the Suttanta method 'ignorance' is unknowing about the four instances beginning with suffering. According to the Abhidhamma method it is unknowing about the eight instances [that is to say, the above-mentioned four] together with [the four] beginning with the past; for this is said: 'Herein, what is ignorance? It is unknowing about suffering, [unknowing about the origin of suffering, unknowing about the cessation of suffering, unknowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering], unknowing about the past, unknowing about the future, unknowing about the past and future, unknowing about specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states' (cf. Dhs. 1162). ------- N: The Tiika repeats that there are two methods (pariyaaya): the method of the suttanta and the method of the abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities, with khandhas, elements and bases (ayaatanas). We read in the suttas about past lives, the present life and future lives. But in the ultimate sense past, present and future refer to naama and ruupa, to the five khandhas which arise and fall away. The ŒDispeller of Delusion¹ (p.171) states : ¹Herein, ³about the past² (pubbante) is the past time, past aggregates, elements, bases (aayatanas). ³About the future² (aparante)is the future time, future aggregates, elements, bases.² Moreover, there is ignorance about both the past and the future. What is khandha arises and falls away, but ignorance does not know this. As we read in Vis. XIV, 187, 190 different meanings of past, present and future are explained. Speaking in a figurative sense, these terms may refer to period of time such as a lifespan, past lives, the present life and future lives. The term moment, kha.na, is also used with reference to past, present and future. It does not refer to life span, nor to serial presence or period. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense, namely arising, presence, and dissolution. Thus, it has a very precise meaning. It refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution. --------- Text Vis.: Unknowing about specific conditionality, idappaccayataa. Ida means: in this, here. Paccayataa is the state of being a paccaya, conditionality. Idappaccayataa means, that conditionality. Moreover, there is ignorance about the conditioned dhammas. ------------ Conclusion: Ignorance is not knowing paramattha dhammas, being deluded about them. When one perceives people and things and believes them to be lasting, one does not see them as elements that are devoid of self. At the moment of ignorance we do not know that there is ignorance, it is treacherous, dark, covering up the truth. It yokes us to the cycle of birth and death. It is a latent tendency so powerful, only to be eradicated at the attainment of arahatship. When we reflect on ignorance, the greatest danger, we are reminded not to neglect the development of right understanding of any dhamma appearing now. -------- Nina. 56082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments nilovg Dear Han, op 25-02-2006 04:31 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > When a person is dying his faculties including mental > faculties will, in most cases, deteriorate. He may not > hear the parittas that are being played near him, or > he may not hear when his family reminded him to > remember the wholesome deeds that he had done. In > such a situation, he may be at the mercy of whatever > objects that may appear through one of the sense doors > or through the mind-door. If he had practiced > satipatthaana meditation seriously and regularly (but > not yet attained any magga nana) will he be able to > develop sati and 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) > just before the cuti-citta, despite the deteriorated > mental faculty at that moment. Or will he be at the > mercy of the objects that may appear at random? Or > will his past kusala kamma, provided it is more than > his past akusala kamma, automatically bring in the > pleasant objects to appear? --------- N: He is not at the mercy of the objects that may appear at random. True, the last five javana cittas are very weak, but it is past kamma that conditions these javana cittas and also the object that these javana cittas experience. These javana cittas will determine his rebirth. Kamma does not operate automatically, but it is beyond control, it shows us that it is anattaa. These last moments are so very fast, passing in a flash. We never know what past kamma conditions the next rebirth. Kamma that is often performed during life, such as listening to the dhamma, developing satipatthana, can condition it, but also a heavy kamma of a past life can. If family members remind him of his good deeds, or put in his hands robes for the monks, or recite parittas, it is their kusala cittas that want to help him. And he may appreciate these, with anumodana. It is good to help a dying person or anybody else to have kusala cittas, kusala is never lost. Nina. 56083 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Vism.XVII,58 nilovg Hi Larry, op 25-02-2006 02:15 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > I agree. A rupa doesn't have any understanding but the lack of > understanding isn't the cause of dependent arising. The cause of > dependent arising is a cetasika which arises with volition (cetana). -------- N: Ignorance and craving are the outstanding causes. These condition kamma that produces rebirth-consciousness and vipaaka arising during life. -------- L: This cetasika is not only not knowing, it is anti-knowing. ---------- N: Also the term avijja is used: no vijja, no paññaa. Paññaa illuminates the object that appears, whereas avijja, moha, aññaana, covers up (pa.ticchaadeati) the true nature of realities. In this way one takes the wrong Path for the right Path and what is not nibbaana for nibbaana, as will be explained. Avijjaa plays an ugly role in our life. -------- L: The verb > "ignore" may not be the best because there is the implication of a self > that ignores. Even though ignorance is akusala it is anatta. Even though > there may be the belief in a self that ignores, there is no self that > ignores. -------- N: Well said. It is a cetasika, we know this in theory, but when it occurs we are likely to take it for self. Ignorance and wrong view play us many tricks. Nina. 56084 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12am Subject: D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I read that you are more inclined to the Suttanta method as regards D.O. But also in the suttas there is abhidhamma. When the Buddha spoke about birth, old age, sickness and death he gently introduced people to understand birth and death at each moment, namely of nama and rupa. Larry and I have begun this project that will last more then two years. As we go along, maybe it will be clearer to you that D.O. deals with nama and rupa. We cannot understand D.O. if we do not understand the khandhas, elements and ayaatanas it deals with and in which ways the different dhammas are related to each other. That is why we find a summing up of all the conditions and an explanation of them in the folloowing paras. It is very meaniongful that we studied the Khandhas first in Ch XIV. Meanwhile it is very useful if you raise your objections to Buddhaghosa. I like to hear concrete examples. This gives me a chance to consider more, and if possible to clear up misunderstandings about the commentary. Nina. 56085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to Phil 1. Detachment. nilovg Hi Phil, >> -- the development of the path requires detachment from the beginning I have heard this a lot. As I said to Howard the other day, at first I thought this was contradictory. How can these be detachment from the beginning when detachment is the goal? But I have been understanding (experiencing?) how much detachment(not much, but a little) there can be even through intellectual understanding. (But I don't know if this is what Acharn Sujin means by "detachment from the beginning.) ------ N: It is helpful to have more understanding of the reality of detachment and when it arises. It is the cetasika alobha, non-attachment, which arises with each kusala citta, just for a moment. It is not a lasting state of mind. Detachment can arise now, when there are conditions for kusala citta. At such a moment we are not attached to our own wellbeing, our progress, and there is no conceit of being somebody with a great deal of knowledge. When there is ignorance of realities the citta is akusala citta, and there is no detachment. When there is wrong view of self, there is no detachment. When we think of detachment, we usually apply this to sense objects as you know, but we can remember that detachment also concerns the abandoning of ignorance and wrong view with regard to the dhamma appearing at this moment. We can come to understand that it is understanding, pañña that leads to detachment. We have to begin where we are, and this means that very gradually understanding of the dhamma that appears can grow. As we go about in our daily life, we are usually absorbed in thinking of people and things, and we are forgetful of the paramattha dhammas that appear one at a time through the six doors. We can learn the difference between the moment that there is mindfulness of a reality and the moment that there is forgetfulness. But, as Khun Sujin reminded us, we should not mind whethere there is sati or not. She said: ŒOtherwise self is trying to do something, just very slightly.¹ Without pañña we cannot see the characteristic of wrong view and wrong practice. When we listen to the Dhamma we can learn when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta arises at such moments. We listen to the Dhamma more often with akusala citta than with kusala citta, as you also noticed. Listening with full attention and openmindedness to the Dhamma is difficult. When we listen with kusala citta there is detachment from ignorance and wrong view and this is the way to accumulate understanding of realities little by little. I know these matters in theory, but when attachment or detachment occur, I know very little. I said to Kh. Sujin that if we only know the nimitta, the sign, that remains of a particular dhamma, after it has fallen away, we can never know reality. She ansered: ŒWo knows? I? What matters is the development of understanding of realities, that is all. No me who is developing.¹ When she said that we are living like in a dream I answered that I dislike this idea, I do not want dreams. Then Kh. Sujin said that paññaa can know that we are as it were dreaming, and if this is not realized, there is no paññaa. Each time when I am in Bangkok I understand a little more, that I am entangled in the idea of self. I know by reasoning about it, but I am forgetful when such an idea arises. I need many reminders to detect this. This is actually the meaning of being detached from the very beginning. ****** Nina. 56086 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:16am Subject: sense-object déjà vu antony272b2 Dear Sarah and Group, Every sense-impression is newly arisen. It only seems like I have sensed the object before as a lasting entity but is this just déjà vu? Are some sense-objects less impermanent than others? Thanks / Antony. 56087 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana nilovg Dear Scott and friends, please bear with me the coming weeks. I will be slow in answering but not forgetting the many good points raised here. In short: next week our flat will be painted, books to be taken out, curtains washed, I will be off line for a day or so. op 25-02-2006 18:23 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: >> Thank you very much. It is my initial failure, but would you be so > kind as to use the Pali to denote which meaning you are attributing to > the english "meditation." I would think "bhaavaana," although this > would then have to include samatha-bhaavaana and vipassana-bhaavaana. > At any rate, this clarification would help. I don't think I mean > "sati" but this likely arises being cetasika, I believe. ------- N: you are right, "bhaavaana," which includes samatha-bhaavaana and vipassana-bhaavaana. I think the word meditation confusing. We have the Pali jhaana and jhayaati: meditate, O monks. But jhaana can, according to the Co., refer to the samatha meditation subjects (40) or to contemplation of the three characteristics of condiitoned dhammas. ---------- S: I think that I am learning by experience that "the place of meditation > is wherever [one] may be." Kusula citta can arise wherever. I've > been surprised at the experience of kusula citta in locations other > than on the meditation cushion, where I had become accustomed to the > experience, believing them to be a function of that whole "ritual." I > learned that these experiences are not location-specific.... > I think I still need to understand the factors which condition this > arising. Perhaps, it occurs to me, I need to stop wondering about > this since it is subtly part of a clinging to self-concept: an actor > who causes to arise. ------- Yes, it has conditions: intellectual understanding of the object of satipatthana: nama or rupa appearing now. Listening and considering. No actor, but inspite of understanding this, the idea of self that has been accumulated, will mislead 'us' time and again. Nina. 56088 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. dacostacharles Hi Jon Can you explain the following a little further? "... when we talk about awareness being of a single dhamma only, that does not mean awareness of just a single moment of a single dhamma. I mention this because people sometimes question the 'single dhamma as object' idea on the basis that it is not possible to experience single moments of consciousness given the rapidity with which they arise and fall away." I am not sure what you are getting at. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonothan Abbott Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 13:41 ... when we talk about awareness being of a single dhamma only, that does not mean awareness of just a single moment of a single dhamma. I mention this because people sometimes question the 'single dhamma as object' idea on the basis that it is not possible to experience single moments of consciousness given the rapidity with which they arise and fall away. Jon 56089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat nilovg Hi Charles Ch, op 26-02-2006 02:51 schreef Charles op cherry_avium@...: > You explained two kind of parinibbanas below. Which parinibbana is > meant in the statement 'the layman have to attain parinibbana on that > very same day'? ------- Khandha parinibbaana, thus, utter passing away. He reaches the end of his last life. --------- Ch: Is arahatship and parinibbana the same thing? -------- N: One can attain arahatship and still live on when the time has not come to utterly pass away. Then there is kilesa parinibbaana. He has eradicated all defilements. From then on he has kiriyacittas instead of kusala cittas or akusala cittas. There are no conditions anymore to commit new kamma. But results of former kammas can still be received. ----------- Ch: Can't we take the meaning of 'the layman who have become arahat have > to attain parinibbana' as 'the extinction of the defilements have to > attained the same day after the attainment of arahatta magga and > phala? ------- N: see above. Arahatta magga already means kilesa parinibbaana, extinction of defilements. --------- Ch: In Dhammapada it is said bhikkhu is the attitude not the robe. > Can't we call a layman with an arahat attitude a bhikkhu? ------ N: 'Bhikkhu' can be used with different meanings. In the Co. to the satipatthana sutta it is explained that those who develop the eightfold Path can be called a bhikkhu in a sense. All those who cultivate the brahmacariya, the divine life. -------- Ch: What do we mean by layman here, is it the dress or the attitude? -------- N: Those who have not been ordained a bhikkhu are laymen. Th purpose of bhikkhu life is the attainment of arahatship, and their conduct is to be such that one could not tell from his outward appearance whether he is an arahat or not. The Vinaya helps the bhikkhu to have perfect conduct, to see danger in the slightest faults. We ought to have great respect for the bhikkhu who has to observe so many rules. Nina. 56090 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your very comprehensive reply. I have noted that: (1) A dying person is not at the mercy of the objects that may appear at random, but it is past kamma that conditions these last five javana cittas and also the object that these javana cittas experience. (2) Kamma does not operate automatically, but it is beyond control, it shows us that it is anattaa. (3) These last moments of a dying person are so very fast, passing in a flash. (4) Kamma that is often performed during life (aacinna-kamma) can condition it, but also a heavy kamma (garuka-kamma) of a past life can. ------------------------------- May I ask one more question, please? As the last moments of a dying person are so very fast, passing in a flash, he may not have time to do anything to have a good death-proximate kamma (aasanna-kamma) at the last crucial moments. This being the case, in the absence of a heavy kamma (garuka-kamma), can good habitual kamma (aacinna-kamma) such as listening to the dhamma, developing satipatthana, etc., facilitate the arising of a good death-proximate kamma (aasanna-kamma) at the last crucial moments of the dying person? The reason for asking this question is to know how important it is to develop a good habitual kamma (aacinna-kamma) throughout our life, and not depending on what one might try to do at the last moments which are very fast. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: He is not at the mercy of the objects that may > appear at random. 56091 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 842 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii So before there can be destruction of upacaara samaadhi, the practitioner has to steadfastly try to master the bhaavanaa that he attains. Otherwise all his samaadhi may go back to lower one and finally it is no more different from other non-practitioners. Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii So before there can be destruction of upacaara samaadhi, the practitioner has to steadfastly try to master the bhaavanaa that he attains. Otherwise all his samaadhi may go back to lower one and finally it is no more different from other non-practitioners. So the upacaara-samaadhi must be maintained even as a virtuous lady keeping her treasured womb where an emperor has taken birth and she must avoid seven causes that are not convenient and beneficent to the development of samatha bhaavanaa (sapaaya). These seven things that have to be avoided are 1. avoidance of avasa, or dwellings, where, when lived in, the nimitta that has not yet arisen would not arise, and that which has arisen would disappear. (So a *particular place* and a *particular time* do need.) 2. avoidance of gocara or routes that are too far or too close to avasa (dwelling), where the food is not easy to find and not plentiful. (*particular place requires.) 3. avoidance of uncomfortable words of the tiracchanakatha [low or unprofitable talk] which are not beneficent to panna, which would cause the nimitta that has arisen to disappear. 4. avoidance of people filled with kilesa, who occupy themselves with kilesa, because they make the citta dark and dull with kilesa. (So going to brothals, going to social occasions, going to social affairs do matter.) 5. avoidance of nutrition that is inappropriate for the body, which may bring illnesses. 6. avoidance of air that is inappropriate for the body, which may bring illness. 7. avoidance of physical positions that do not render the citta steadfast. ( So a *particular position* like sitting crossed-leg or formal sitting position is required.) Still there are other requirements. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56092 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Charles Ch, -------- > N: Those who have not been ordained a bhikkhu are laymen. Th purpose of > bhikkhu life is the attainment of arahatship, and their conduct is to be > such that one could not tell from his outward appearance whether he is an > arahat or not. The Vinaya helps the bhikkhu to have perfect conduct, to see > danger in the slightest faults. We ought to have great respect for the > bhikkhu who has to observe so many rules. > Nina. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for this post. It is true that bhikkhus are under the burden of vinaya rules. 227 vinayas are just a summary. There are many. One of my friend from Mongolia said that in their Buddhism there are 225 vinayas. Maybe this is just a variation. I think he is Mahayana Buddhist. With respect, Htoo Naing 56093 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your very comprehensive reply. > > I have noted that: > > (1) A dying person is not at the mercy of the objects > that may appear at random, but it is past kamma that > conditions these last five javana cittas and also the > object that these javana cittas experience. > > (2) Kamma does not operate automatically, but it is > beyond control, it shows us that it is anattaa. > > (3) These last moments of a dying person are so very > fast, passing in a flash. > > (4) Kamma that is often performed during life > (aacinna-kamma) can condition it, but also a heavy > kamma (garuka-kamma) of a past life can. > > ------------------------------- > > May I ask one more question, please? > > As the last moments of a dying person are so very > fast, passing in a flash, he may not have time to do > anything to have a good death-proximate kamma > (aasanna-kamma) at the last crucial moments. This > being the case, in the absence of a heavy kamma > (garuka-kamma), can good habitual kamma > (aacinna-kamma) such as listening to the dhamma, > developing satipatthana, etc., facilitate the arising > of a good death-proximate kamma (aasanna-kamma) at the > last crucial moments of the dying person? > > The reason for asking this question is to know how > important it is to develop a good habitual kamma > (aacinna-kamma) throughout our life, and not depending > on what one might try to do at the last moments which > are very fast. > > With metta and deepest respect, > Han ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear U Han Tun, Nina and all, I think, Nina's answer is much better than my old answer long time ago. We all should be preparing for our last moments or dying moments. To avoid repentence we all should be in the brighter side of kamma. That is we have to do 'kusala' to become aacinna-kamma while we aim for arahatta-magga-naana. With respect to both, Htoo Naing 56094 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 843 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Still there are other requirements. After seven causes are avoided and fulfilling of what should be fulfilled, appana-samadhi still may not arise. If this happens the practitioner should practice appana-kosala (kosallam, skill, proficiency, knowledge, mastery) to the fullest. That is the practitioner should be composed with appana-kosala, the knowledge and wisdom in the ten dhammas that are conducive to the arising of the jhaana citta (Visuddhimagga Pathavi-kasina-niddesa). These ten dhammas are 1. through making the 'foundation' clean, or cleansing the body, clothing and dwellings, otherwise the citta would not be bright and pure. 2. through making the five indriyas even or equal in strength; saddha, panna, viriya and samadhi would be on the same level with sati. Sati is never in excess. Pannaa and saddha have to be balanced. Viiriya and samaadhi have to be balanced. 3. through wisdom about nimitta. 4. to support the citta when the occasion arises. 5. to suppress the citta when the occasion arises. 6. to brighten the citta when the occasion arises. 7. to concentrate with indifference on the citta when the occasion arises. 8. to avoid persons who are not steadfast. 9. to frequent persons who are steadfast. 10.to be one whose inclination turns towards such beneficence. If the practitioner were not wise in these ten appana-kosalas, the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta would not increase in peaceful stability to being paada (basis) for the appanaa samaadhi, or ruupaavacara pathama jhana citta, to arise. That is to say arising of appanaa bhaavanaa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56095 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 844 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii There are 3 bhaavanaas in samatha bhaavanaa. They are parikamma bhaavanaa, upacaara bhaavanaa, and appanaa bhaavanaa. We first deal with pathavii kasi.na. These three bhavanaa are correlated with three nimitta, which are all signs and they all are nimitta pannatti and all are concepts. There are boundries between these three bhaavanaa. The first boundry is between parikamma bhaavanaa and upacaara bhaavanaa. This boundry is the arising of pa.tibhaaga nimitta or counter image. As soon as this sign appear the mind is so clear and calm that there does not arise any hindrances. The boundry between upacaara bhaavanaa and appanaa bhaavanaa is very hard to see. Because when the practitioner is on the upacaara samaadhi he is almost ready for appanaa samaadhi to arise. So at any given time it is possible for him to have appanaa samaadhi provided he fulfiled already mentioned things in the previous posts. Upacaara bhaavanaa and appanaa bhaavanaa are almost the same. They have the same object. They are almost the same cittas. The boundry is that when appanaa samaadhi arise it becomes unshakable unlike upacaara samaadhi which is flexible and movable. In appanaa samaadhi the citta and the object merge into one and they are so close that they seem to be one thing only. When there is appanaa bhaavanaa this means that it is manodvaara cittas and so any of 5 sense-doors object will not be recognised at that time. If these 5 senses are to be recognises one has to exit from the appanaa bhaavanaa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56096 From: "Charles" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat cherry_avium Hi Nina, Thank you for your answer. Now I am thinking another case. At the time when there is no Buddha Sasana, there is no sangha, therefore no ordination. But people can become Pacceka Buddha. Because there is no sangha, those who achieve Pacceka Buddha-hood, are laymen before, and 'laymen ' (laymen who have achieve Buddhahood) after, but they are not mentioned to have too seek ordination (which is unavailable). So why is ordination so important in the case of a layman Arahat? Maybe it is solely because they respect the rules *_* (of their teacher), that is if people see they ordain theirselves, people may follow them and not being so strictly ruled under the vinaya, because of the informal way taken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Charles Ch, > op 26-02-2006 02:51 schreef Charles op cherry_avium@...: > > You explained two kind of parinibbanas below. Which parinibbana is > > meant in the statement 'the layman have to attain parinibbana on that > > very same day'? > ------- > Khandha parinibbaana, thus, utter passing away. He reaches the end of his > last life. 56097 From: "Charles" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat cherry_avium Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < htootintnaing@...> wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for this post. It is true that bhikkhus are under the burden > of vinaya rules. 227 vinayas are just a summary. There are many. One > of my friend from Mongolia said that in their Buddhism there are 225 > vinayas. Maybe this is just a variation. I think he is Mahayana > Buddhist. I agree, 227 is so many rules. But from the explanation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya Mahayana has 250 rules while Tantrayana has 253 rules for bhikkhu Vinaya, so 225 is a new number I guess. 56098 From: "Charles" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:28am Subject: Re: D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. cherry_avium Hi Nina and All, In my could-be-wrong opinion, if the momentary birth and decay of things are known, then the Dependent Origination should be read like this no avijja, no sankhara no sankhara, no vinnana no vinnana, no nama-rupa no nama-rupa, no salayatana no salayatana, no contact no contact, no feeling no feeling, no tanha no tanha, no craving no craving, no rebirth no rebirth, no birth no birth, no old age, sickness, and old age. :-] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > I read that you are more inclined to the Suttanta method as regards D.O. But > also in the suttas there is abhidhamma. When the Buddha spoke about birth, > old age, sickness and death he gently introduced people to understand birth > and death at each moment, namely of nama and rupa. 56099 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/26/06 4:12:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I read that you are more inclined to the Suttanta method as regards D.O. But > also in the suttas there is abhidhamma. When the Buddha spoke about birth, > old age, sickness and death he gently introduced people to understand birth > and death at each moment, namely of nama and rupa. > Larry and I have begun this project that will last more then two years. As > we go along, maybe it will be clearer to you that D.O. deals with nama and > rupa. We cannot understand D.O. if we do not understand the khandhas, > elements and ayaatanas it deals with and in which ways the different dhammas > are related to each other. That is why we find a summing up of all the > conditions and an explanation of them in the folloowing paras. It is very > meaniongful that we studied the Khandhas first in Ch XIV. > Meanwhile it is very useful if you raise your objections to Buddhaghosa. I > like to hear concrete examples. This gives me a chance to consider more, and > if possible to clear up misunderstandings about the commentary. > Nina. > ======================== Actually, Nina, my preferred understanding of D.O. is that of a moment-to-moment process that does include the moments of "lifetime death and rebirth" but also all other moments as well. Actually, I've detailed my (idiosyncratic) perspective on D.O. before on DSG and elsewhere, and while it is different from the perspective of anyone else I've ever come across, it is a perspective that "understand(s) birth and death at each moment, namely of nama and rupa," and deals most specifically in the 12-link formulation with the conditioned development of dukkha and its unraveling. I view D.O. in its concocting-of-dukkha direction as a process going on all the time, and not just spanning three conventional lifetimes. I've saved an article that is a synopsis of my posts on D.O., and if you'd like me to forward it to you I'd be happy to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56100 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. nilovg Hi Charles Ch, only if there is the full realization of the truth by the arahat. Nina. op 26-02-2006 14:28 schreef Charles op cherry_avium@...: > Hi Nina and All, > > In my could-be-wrong opinion, if the momentary birth and decay of > things are known, then the Dependent Origination should be read like > this > > no avijja, no sankhara > no sankhara, no vinnana > no vinnana, no nama-rupa > no nama-rupa, no salayatana > no salayatana, no contact > no contact, no feeling > no feeling, no tanha > no tanha, no craving > no craving, no rebirth > no rebirth, no birth > no birth, no old age, sickness, and old age. 56101 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat nilovg Hi Charles Ch, they become ascetics, no need for any homelife. They do not have any attachment whatsoever. Nina op 26-02-2006 13:48 schreef Charles op cherry_avium@...: > Now I am thinking another case. At the time when there is no Buddha > Sasana, there is no sangha, therefore no ordination. > > But people can become Pacceka Buddha. Because there is no sangha, > those who achieve Pacceka Buddha-hood, are laymen before, and 'laymen > ' (laymen who have achieve Buddhahood) after, but they are not > mentioned to have too seek ordination (which is unavailable). > > So why is ordination so important in the case of a layman Arahat? > > Maybe it is solely because they respect the rules *_* (of their > teacher), that is if people see they ordain theirselves, people may > follow them and not being so strictly ruled under the vinaya, because > of the informal way taken. > 56102 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, viññaa.na.m, attention Suan. rjkjp1 Great to see your post Suan, I have the translation with commentary and subcommentary by Ven. Bodhi and it is wonderful. It must be even more profound to read it in pali as you do. with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, Robert K, Mike N, Howard, Matheesha and all > > How are you? > > Recently, I have been reading "Mahaanidaana Suttam" in Pali with > intentional slowness. Of course, I have read this great Suttam > previously, but this time round I did so with slow pace and probing > mind. > > Nina, Robert, Mike, you three should also read it again with slow, > probing interest. I discover many profound aspects of it in this > great Diighanikaaya Suttam. For example, the Pali > expression "anÞnÞamanÞnÞapaccayo", one of the causes or conditions > expounded in Pa.t.thaana. And, to the delight of Abhidhamma > students, the Buddha explained here the nature of sabhaava or > lakkhanaa in Suttam style. Amazing, amazing! > 56103 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > htootintnaing@> wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > > Thanks for this post. It is true that bhikkhus are under the burden > > of vinaya rules. 227 vinayas are just a summary. There are many. > One > > of my friend from Mongolia said that in their Buddhism there are > 225 > > vinayas. Maybe this is just a variation. I think he is Mahayana > > Buddhist. > > I agree, 227 is so many rules. > > But from the explanation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya > Mahayana has 250 rules while Tantrayana has 253 rules for bhikkhu > Vinaya, so 225 is a new number I guess. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, I do not know. The Momgole said so. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56104 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 845 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii As soon as appanaa samaadhi arise the mind sinks into bhavanga cittas or life-continuum again for some time. When this appanaa samaadhi arises for the first time this happens like this. We have extensively studied on viithi or procession of cittas. Here it will be very helpful to consider on processions of cittas. When the practitioner is on upacaara samaadhi this means that he or she is having javanaa cittas which are mahaa-kusala-cittas. These mahakusala cittas normally arise only 7 times in a procession. Before that there will be repeated processions of many viithi vaara. When upacaara samaadhi become very mature and it is just going to arise appanaa samaadhi the viithi vara will be like the following. B.B.B.M.J.J.J.J.J.J.J.D.D.B B.B.B.M.P.U.A.G.Jh.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.... Here B = bhavanga citta M = manodvaravajjana citta J = javana cittas (here mahakusala cittas) D = tadaarammana citta P = parikamma mahakusala citta U = upacaara mahakusala citta A = anuloma mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu citta (the last kaama citta, after which is jhaana citta) Jh= first jhaana citta May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56105 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:24am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, It seems to me that the abhidhamma method of understanding ignorance has important implications for satipatthana. In satipatthana we usually emphasize a very narrow focus on the present moment but in order to fully understand that moment we have to step back from the present and consider what in the past conditioned that moment and what that moment will likely be a condition for in the future. Ignorance is not only ignorance of the four noble truths, it is also ignorance of dependent arising. Because ignorance of dependent arising conditions dependent arising, understanding of dependent arising is the end of dependent arising. Larry 56106 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments lbidd2 Nina: "He is not at the mercy of the objects that may appear at random. True, the last five javana cittas are very weak, but it is past kamma that conditions these javana cittas and also the object that these javana cittas experience. These javana cittas will determine his rebirth." Hi Nina, I have a technical question and a quibble. Is the _object_ of the last mind door process before dying always a resultant consciousness or should we consider the object a "resultant object"? Also, it seems to me it doesn't matter to the rebirth consciousness what the last javana citta is; because it is so weak it probably has no kammic consequences. It is the object of this javana citta that is a preview of the next life and a pre-facsimile of the next life's bhavanga citta. Larry 56107 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments matheesha333 Dear Han, I was reminded of the story of queen mallika who recollecting a misdeed was born in a hell world. When the kind pasenadi kosala asked the buddha where she was reborn he didnt tell him until 10 days had passed. After this 10 days she was born in a heavenly world due to a life long practice of good deeds. So it seems that there's not much point in 'cheating' kamma at the point of death. Lifelong practice of the dhamma is essential and will affect even the final moment of death to some degree.Its interesting how we dont focus much on this life - the practice of dhamma will bring you freedom from suffering in this life. No need to focus so much on the life after. If we are happy in terms of the dhamma in this life, the afterlife will be taken care of. We will be happy now and after. I tried to find some suttas for you. See below what I found: metta Matheesha ------------------ Help | Home » Tipitaka » Sutta Pitaka » Samyutta Nikaya » Context of this sutta Samyutta Nikaya XLII.6 Paccha-bhumika Sutta [Brahmans] of the Western Land Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Nalanda in the Pavarika Mango Grove. Then Asibandhakaputta the headman went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "The brahmans of the Western lands, lord -- those who carry water pots, wear garlands of water plants, purify with water, & worship fire -- can take [the spirit of] a dead person, lift it out, instruct it, & send it to heaven. But the Blessed One, worthy & rightly self- awakened, can arrange it so that all the world, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world." "Very well, then, headman, I will question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: There is the case where a man is one who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' What do you think: would that man -- because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people -- at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world?" "No, lord." "Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!' What do you think: would that boulder -- because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people -- rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?" "No, lord." "So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart -- [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' -- still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell. "Now what do you think: There is the case where a man is one who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; he refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; he is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' What do you think: would that man -- because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people -- at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell?" "No, lord." "Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar- fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would come up. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Sink, O ghee/oil! Submerge, O ghee/oil! Go down, O ghee/oil!' What do you think: would that ghee/oil, because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people sink, submerge, or go down?" "No, lord." "So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart -- [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' -- still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world." When this was said, Asibandhakaputta the headman said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to point out the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One - - through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from this day forward, for life." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: AN X.176. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-006.html 56108 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 842 ) -samatha-buddhas instructions matheesha333 Hi Htoo, 3 suttas are very important in the development of samatha/samadhi/adhicitta. These seem to be the Buddhas original instructions on developing samatha bhaavana. The vitakkasantana sutta [the Relaxation of Thoughts] http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/020-vitakkasanthana-sutta-e2.htm The Pansadhovaka Sutta [dirt washer] http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/canon/sutta/anguttara/a n03-100-1.html Nimitta Sutta [Themes] http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/canon/sutta/anguttara/a n03-100-2.html furthermore... § 156. A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through the Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable ignorance. Which six? There is the case where a monk is skilled in the attaining of concentration, in the maintenance of concentration, in the exit from concentration, in the [mind's] preparedness for concentration, in the range of concentration, & in the application of concentration. A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through the Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable ignorance. -- AN VI.24 metta Matheesha 56109 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 0:06pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58 and Tiika. matheesha333 Hi Larry, L: In satipatthana we usually emphasize a very narrow focus on > the present moment but in order to fully understand that moment we have to step back from > the present and consider what in the past conditioned that moment and what that moment > will likely be a condition for in the future. M: Right you are! Awareness of the present moment is not static. It is flowing and transitional, showing how one dhamma conditions the next, like watching scenery go by, how one links up with the next. Understanding that they are connected is one point where panna 'kicks in'. There would be a problem if satipattana was limited to just one moment of awareness because the connections would be difficult to discern. It is called Foundations of awareness - the awareness is ongoing, with (almost) every moment. metta Matheesha 56110 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 0:21pm Subject: What Buddha taught lay people matheesha333 Hi Group, I wrote this email to another group. I hope it is useful to you as well. metta Matheesha ---------------------- Dear D., >one of my long term dilemmas was whether the enlightened one actively encouraged THIS FORM of mediation (narrower interpretation) among lay people (upasaka upasika) in the practice of dhamma & vinaya in their day to day life…..? I would greatly appreciate if anyone would shed some light on this issue and if possible state some specific examples from dhamma and vinya on this matter reg: lay people M: A very important question indeed. I think we need to get a broader view on this before we come to the sutta quotations. The Buddhist path is more complex than it seems superficially. The final goal is nibbana – there is no dispute about this. The question is more – how much a person is devoted to reaching that goal. The ultimate form of that devotion is to go forth into homelessness and become a monk. Now we need to remember that this was a common occurrence in the buddhas time. The youngest person in the family had the cultural acceptance of going forth to find enlightenment. So we can think that there was less resistence to becoming a monk back then. Another way to look at it – it was lay people who became monks. This was the ultimate step/gesture of seriousness of practice. So what does that say of those who stayed back? The Buddha in one sutta compares those of other religions, Buddhist lay people, and monks to fields with increasingly fertile soil. Meaning that the best dhamma were given to people with the `best soil' to receive it. While there seems to have been some change in what was taught because of this (dana, going to heavens, how to spend money, having right friends etc were more commonly taught to lay people) , it was not universal, and may have been due to case by case consideration. [all the examples below are based on suttas] To begin with there were highly advanced lay disciples – some of whom were anagamins (mentioned in the MN). Of them some lay disciples like Ugga had special powers which usually came about through practice of jhana. Indeed it is mentioned elsewhere in the suttas that samadhi training has to be complete to become an anagamin – this means the 4 jhaanas- an exquisite level of samadhi – the 4th jhaana was the base for developing super powers. Then there is this sutta where the Buddha tells anathapindika that giving alms was not enough, and the he should spend time in `seclusion and rapture'. Then in the same moment Ven Sariputta also talks about the advantages of such a state – including not being caught up with pain/pleasure of the kaama world – an indirect reference that such a state is about a rupa state – or rupa jhana where rapture is jhana factor. So it seems the buddha was asking anathapindika to develop samadhi to a jhanic level. Then there is another sutta where citta the householder tells the Buddha that he practices the four foundations of mindfulness on and off. Then some of the recollections like buddhanussathi, dhammanussathi, sanghanussati, caganaussati, devanussati etc were prescribed to lay people. There were instances when asubha bhavana was given as kammatana to lay people. One woman had cut her hair and kept it in front of her and was meditating. Anathapindika was told by the Buddha that more than giving any gift to a Buddha/sangha, practicing metta, understanding at least a moment of impermanence was better. It is said in the suttas that metta bhavana should be practice every moment -even while minding the children. We also need to keep in mind that what is recorded in the suttas were mostly what was heard by Ven Ananda in context of the dhamma given to monks. There may have been a bias in that what was told to lay people were not routinely recorded/accessible. We should not think that lay people knew the dhamma less than monks either. There were question put to Citta the householder by a monk about the doors to nibbana and the like. The monk ends praising citta for his dhamma knowledge. Ugga says he preaches to the monks, if monks don't preach to him. There are many suttas where deep dhamma was discussed with lay people -even though anathapindika was unfortunate in this regard - and requested for deep dhamma only in his death bed. At the end of the spectrum there were those like Singala to whom the singalovada sutta was taught to. Singala was someone who rebelled against going to see the Budha and his father had to use a little trick to get him to hear the dhamma. So the Buddha told him some dhamma which was of basic quality – that which was kept for those of other religions. Unfortunately this has been held up as the dhamma for lay people amongst Buddhists. This has blighted and lowered the high standard which was normal for a lay Buddhist person in the buddhas sasana. Much better would be to use the sutta told to dhigajanu: There Dighajanu (LongShin) the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come." "There are these four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come. Which four? Being consummate in conviction, being consummate in virtue, being consummate in generosity, being consummate in discernment. "And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. This is called being consummate in discernment. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-054a.html I have abbreviated the above sutta. But the last bit is very important. The discernment (panna) of arising and passing away: this is a state of seeing impermanence moment to moment. This is the basic standard of wisdom expected from a lay person. This is a state of vipassana. This requires a certain level of samadhi/concentration and that requires a certain level of sila. This is also moments away from insight required to become a sotapanna. Infact if one could see impermanence in this manner and kept his sila, it is likely that he would become a sotapanna atleast at the point of death. The Buddha dhamma is awakening again from its slumber. It is evident in what has been happening in the last 100 years. I hope we will make the best use of this awakening. Ultimately how much practice one wants to do is in your hands. You can at the very least have some faith in the triple gem. Else you can actively hope to strive towards nibbana in this very life while being a lay person. The question is how badly do you want it? How much do you believe in it? It is in your hands. Metta Matheesha ps - if you have any further questions please clarify ---------------------------- [sutta extracts below] ßHouseholder, The Blessed One has declared, that you are endowed with eight wonderful and surprising things. Householder, what are those eight..? Venerable sir, with that delighted mind I attended on The Blessed One. The Blessed One gave me a graduated sermon. Such as the benefits, of giving gifts, being virtuous, about heavenly bliss, the dangers of sensuality, the defiling nature of vile and low things and the benefits of giving up. When The Blessed One knew that my mind was ready, tender, free from obstructions, exalted and pleased, he gave me the special message of the enlightened ones such as unpleasantness, the arising of unpleasantness, the cessation of unpleasàntness and the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness. Just as a pure cloth free of any impurity would take the dye evenly, in the same manner the pure stainless eye of the Teaching appeared to me, seated there itself- ßWhatever arisen thing has the nature of ceasing". . Venerable sir, it is not surprising the gods approach me and tell- `Householder, the Teaching of The Blessed One is well declared'- Then I tell them-'Whether you tell it or not tell it, the Teaching of The Blessed One is well declared.' On account of this I do not feel any elation, about the gods approaching me or of my talking with the gods. This is the seventh wonderful and surprising thing, evident in me Venerable sir, if I die before The Blessed One it is no wonder, if The Blessed One says, the householder Ugga of Hatthigàma has no bonds to return to this world. This is the eighth wonderful and surprising thing, evident in me. Venerable sir these eight wonderful and surprising things, are evident in me. I do not know of the eight wonderful and surprising things declared by The Blessed One. Aïguttara Nikàya 003. Gahapativaggo- Householders 1. Pañhama-uggasuttaü- First to Ugga of Vesali. There Dighajanu (LongShin) the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come." "There are these four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come. Which four? Being consummate in conviction, being consummate in virtue, being consummate in generosity, being consummate in discernment. "And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue. "And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. This is called being consummate in discernment. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-054a.html The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records a fabulous alms-giving conducted by the Bodhisatta when he was born as a brahman named Velama. Lavish gifts of silver, gold, elephants, cows, carriages, etc., not to mention food, drink and clothing, were distributed among everybody who came forward to receive them. But this open- handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is said to be more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream- enterer (sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama. It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream-enterers. Next in order come nonreturners, arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ... "'I am the owner of my actions,1 heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through Revised: Tuesday 2006-01-31 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html On one occasion Ven. Kamabhu was living near Macchikasanda in the Wild Mango Grove. Then Citta the householder went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Kamabhu, "Venerable sir, how many [types of] fabrications are there?" "There are three fabrications, householder: bodily-fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn41- 006.html#citta On one occasion Ven. Godatta was living near Macchikasanda in the Wild Mango Grove. Then Citta the householder went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Godatta said to him, "Householder, the immeasurable awareness-release, the nothingness awareness-release, the emptiness awareness-release, the themeless awareness-release: Are these phenomena different in meaning and different in name, or are they one in meaning and different only in name?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn41- 007.html#citta "But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?" "There is the case http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn41- 003.html#citta 56111 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments hantun1 Dear Matheesha, Thank you very much. I will study the sutta carefully. With metta, Han --- matheesha wrote: > Dear Han, > > I was reminded of the story of queen mallika who > recollecting a > misdeed was born in a hell world. 56112 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:43pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 842 ) -samatha-buddhas instructions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > 3 suttas are very important in the development of > samatha/samadhi/adhicitta. These seem to be the Buddhas original > instructions on developing samatha bhaavana. > > The vitakkasantana sutta [the Relaxation of Thoughts] > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/020-vitakkasanthana-sutta-e2.htm > > > The Pansadhovaka Sutta [dirt washer] > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/canon/sutta/anguttara/ a > n03-100-1.html > > > Nimitta Sutta [Themes] > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/canon/sutta/anguttara/ a > n03-100-2.html > > > furthermore... > > § 156. A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through > the Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable > ignorance. Which six? > > There is the case where a monk is skilled in the attaining of > concentration, in the maintenance of concentration, in the exit from > concentration, in the [mind's] preparedness for concentration, in the > range of concentration, & in the application of concentration. > > A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through the > Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable ignorance. > > -- AN VI.24 > > > metta > > Matheesha --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesa, Thanks. Check against with Dhamma Thread posts. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56113 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:10pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana buddhistmedi... Hi Scott - I am confused, so please give me a clarification if you'd like to. (I) You asked Nina in #56061 to clarify the meaning of "meditation" whether it meant samatha & vipassana bhavana. Nina's reply in #56087 was : "I think the word meditation confusing. We have the Pali jhaana and jhayaati: meditate, O monks. But jhaana can, according to the Co., refer to the samatha meditation subjects (40) or to contemplation of the three characteristics of condiitoned dhammas." .................... (II) You also remarked in # 56061 : "I think that I am learning by experience that 'the place of meditation is wherever [one] may be.' Kusula citta can arise wherever. I've been surprised at the experience of kusula citta in locations other than on the meditation cushion, where I had become accustomed to the experience, believing them to be a function of that whole "ritual." .... "I think I still need to understand the factors which condition this arising. Perhaps, it occurs to me, I need to stop wondering about this since it is subtly part of a clinging to self- concept: an actor who causes to arise. And Nina gave a familiar reply in #56087: "Yes, it has conditions: intellectual understanding of the object of satipatthana: nama or rupa appearing now. Listening and considering. No actor, but inspite of understanding this, the idea of self that has been accumulated, will mislead 'us' time and again." ..................... Tep's questions: Were you asking her about conditions for kusala citta (in general, not necessarily during samadhi bhavana) to arise, or were you asking about the conditions that support jhana factors (that are also kusala) during samatha meditation? After hearing her answers, do you now rule out the whole samatha meditation (which includes the 1st Tetrad of Anapanasati in DN22, and Kayagata-sati in MN 119) as not 'bhavana' and, therefore, cannot condition kusala citta (to arise)? Do you believe that they are useless 'ritual'? I'll appreciate your kind consideration. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > (snipped)> > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much. It is my initial failure, but would you be so > kind as to use the Pali to denote which meaning you are attributing to > the english "meditation." I would think "bhaavaana," although this > would then have to include samatha-bhaavaana and vipassana- bhaavaana. > At any rate, this clarification would help. I don't think I mean > "sati" but this likely arises being cetasika, I believe. > > I think that I am learning by experience that "the place of meditation > is wherever [one] may be." Kusula citta can arise wherever. I've > been surprised at the experience of kusula citta in locations other > than on the meditation cushion, where I had become accustomed to the > experience, believing them to be a function of that whole "ritual." I > learned that these experiences are not location-specific, are actually > rather robust therefore in that regard. (Hopefully I did not appear > too odd, standing in a book-store at the time, as I stood with > surprise to note what seemed to be arising.) > > I think I still need to understand the factors which condition this > arising. Perhaps, it occurs to me, I need to stop wondering about > this since it is subtly part of a clinging to self-concept: an actor > who causes to arise. I'm pursuing this aspect now with Jon, in > another thread. > (snipped) 56114 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing, Yes, I do remember you answered my questions as 'mahatejavana' long times ago, when I first joined Triplegem. I even thought, by your name, that you are a monk. Yes, I will pay serious attention to your advice to do 'kusala' to accumulate aacinna-kamma while we aim for arahatta-magga-naana. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear U Han Tun, Nina and all, > > I think, Nina's answer is much better than my old > answer long time ago. 56115 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Matheesha, Thanks, this is a better way of expressing what I was trying to get at with respect to understanding past and future. Larry ----------------------------- Matheesha: "Awareness of the present moment is not static. It is flowing and transitional, showing how one dhamma conditions the next, like watching scenery go by, how one links up with the next. Understanding that they are connected is one point where panna 'kicks in'." 56116 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:56pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana scottduncan2 "Were you asking her about conditions for kusala citta (in general, not necessarily during samadhi bhavana) to arise, or were you asking about the conditions that support jhana factors (that are also kusala) during samatha meditation? After hearing her answers, do you now rule out the whole samatha meditation (which includes the 1st Tetrad of Anapanasati in DN22, and Kayagata-sati in MN 119) as not 'bhavana' and, therefore, cannot condition kusala citta (to arise)? Do you believe that they are useless 'ritual'?" Dear Tep, I'll happily attempt clarification. You can rest assured that when I try to use a term I'll get it wrong. I'm also glad to converse with you and ask your patience as I am really not well-versed in the Dhamma and am here to learn. First of all I do not at all rule out the whole samatha meditation. I practise anapanasati and sit regularily and daily for at least an hour starting at 4:30 am. I mention this, not to brag, but to demonstrate my attempts at diligence in this regard, and hence, I think, my total "ruling it in." This practise is very important to me. And please remember that I have no formal teacher as you consider my response; the caveat being that I might be getting it all wrong. Here's where my question was coming from: I had been noticing that the bodily experience I believe to be associated with the arising of the first jhaana, and which had been arising subsequent to anapanasati while on the cushion began to arise in situations other than while I was sitting in formal meditation. For example, I'd find myself awakened in the night full of the experience; and the most recent example, as I quipped about to Nina, was in a bookstore on an errand. I began to wonder how this could be. These jhaana factors arising when I wasn't sort of in place, as it were, lead to the question. That and I was wondering how formal samatha-bhaavaana differed from satipatthaana, again given the above noted experiences. So no, I don't believe that sitting, breathing, becoming absorbed (whatever the proper terms are) represent "useless ritual." Not at all. I'm sorry I came across that way. I had thought that sitting, etc. was conditioning kusula citta in the form of the jhaana factors until I began to experience this elsewhere. I hope that begins to answer your question. I would greatly welcome further questions or corrections of my terminology. If you are a meditator, which I gather is the case, your input would be most welcome. Thank you for the opportunity to learn. Sincerely, Scott. 56117 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:53pm Subject: Decisive is Determination... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Resolute Determination is the Eighth Mental Perfection: Only determination can completely fulfill the other mental perfections! It's characteristic is an unwavering decision, it's function is to overcome it's opposites, & it's manifestation is unfaltering persistence in this task... The proximate cause of determination is strong willpower to succeed! Only the vigour of resolute determination lifts any praxis to perfection... When the Future Buddha turned his back to the trunk of the Bodhi tree, then he right there made this mighty decision: 'Let just the blood & flesh of this body dry up & let the skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained the absolute supreme Enlightenment!' So determined did he invincibly seat himself, which not even 100 earthquakes could make him waver from. Jataka Nidana A female lay follower (Upasika) at the time of the Buddha kept the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and thereby won stream-entry (Sotapanna). After passing away, she re-arised as the favourite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit, she remembered her prior admonition to herself: 'Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort...!!!' Whose mind is like a rock, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust of urging towards the attractions, without a trace of aversion of pushing away the repulsive, from what, can such a refined mind ever suffer ? Udana IV - 4 Using the tools of Faith, Morality, Effort, Determination, Meditation and true Understanding of this Dhamma, one gradually perfect first knowledge & then behavior. So equipped & aware, one may eliminate all of this great heap of suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world, where all is decaying. My mind has been thus well developed, so how can suffering ever touch me? Theragatha 194 The four decisive determinations: One should not neglect the Dhamma, One should guard well the Truth, One should be devoted to Withdrawal, and one should train only for Peace. Majjhima Nikaya 140 What is being determined for right Motivation ? The decision for being motivated by withdrawal, The decision for being motivated by good-will, The decision for being motivated by harmlessness: This is being determined for right Motivation. Samyutta Nikaya XLV 8 Fearing being predestined for Hell if he became a King, who had to punish criminals violently, the Bodhisatta determined not to show any intelligence, and play dump, deaf and cripple for sixteen years, only showing his abilities, when he was on the verge of being buried alive! This was his ultimate perfection of resolute determination... The Basket of Conduct: Cariyapitaka ___________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 56118 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:13pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 384- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] Defilements are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment. The magga-citta of the sotåpanna eradicates wrong view and doubt. The magga-citta of the anågåmí eradicates hate. The anågåmí does not cling to sensuous objects but he may still cling to rebirth which is the result of jhåna. Since this kind of clinging is, in this group of akusala dhammas, included in the defilement of greed, lobha, he has not eradicated this defilement. The magga-citta of the arahat eradicates the defilements of greed, ignorance, conceit, sloth, restlessness, shamelessness and recklessness. The arahat is free from all defilements. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56119 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding is Chief ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita & all, I've been appreciating your selected quotes from various texts on the Paramis (Perfections) very much. I'd like to select just a few on 'Understanding' (pa~n~naa) which you gave for further reflection: --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: 1) > Just as red sandalwood is reckoned as the best of all scented woods, > even & exactly so is the ability to understand reckoned the supreme > among all the mental qualities, that are the links to self-awakening, > leading to enlightenment. > SN V 48-55 > Indriya-samyutta .... S: Sometimes, friends wonder why some of us stress the importance of understanding, but this is what the Buddha stressed. Without understanding, there is no path, no way out. .... 2) > Of minor importance, is the loss of family and wealth... > Catastrophic among losses is the loss of Understanding. > Of minor consequence, is the increase of family and wealth. > Supreme among gains is the increase of comprehension... > Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that. > AN I 14-5 ..... S: These lines contain such a powerful (and difficult) reminder of what is the greatest value in life, at this moment as we speak. I've just checked the PTS translation which gives the following (in full) for further reflection by us all: *** "Of slight account, monks, is the loss of such things as relatives. Miserable (pa.tikittha.m) among losses is theloss of wisdom (pa~n~naa). Of slight account, monks, is the increase of such things as relatives. Chief of all the increases is that of wisdom. Wherefore I say, monks, ye should train yourselves thus: We will increase in wisdom. Ye must train yourselves to win that. Of slight account, monks, is the loss of such things as wealth. Miserable indeed among losses is the loss of wisdom. Of slight account, monks, is the increase of such things as wealth. Chief of all the increases is that of wisdom. Wherefore I say, monks, thus must ye train yourselves: We will increase in wisdom. Ye must train yourselves to win that. Of slight account, monks, is the loss of such things as reputation. Miserable indeed among losses is the loss of wisdom." *** S: Of course, nothing is actually 'lost' literally. I understand 'loss of wisdom' to refer to the non-arising of wisdom. When we think how greatly influenced we are by the worldly conditions, such as gain and loss of family and so on, yet we forget how much greater is the gain and loss of wisdom. .... 3) > Just as the great Ocean slopes down gradually, deepens gradually, > inclines gradually, and not abruptly like an abyss, > even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: > a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), > a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), > a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); > One do not suddenly penetrate to the highest Understanding... > Anguttara > Nikaya II 47 .... S: This is the text that we often need to keep in mind whenever there's any thought of discouragement or question about quick results vs gradual trainng. Even those like Sariputta who appeared to experience such quick results in their last life had in fact developed pa~n~naa gradually over aeons of lifestimes in samsara. The only quick fix is wrong view. Appreciating that pa~n~naa itself is a conditioned dhamma and not Sariputta's, the Buddha's, yours or mine is a little step on this gradual path. .... 4) > Asking Questions logically leads to Understanding: > As a bhikkhu walking for alms beg from both low, middle and high > folks, > if one search & ask both slightly, moderately and highly wise > teachers, > then the insight of the Buddhas shall be yours. > The Basket > of Conduct, Cariyapitaka .... S: I think this is a good passage to stress here. It is not just by the listening and reading, but by the careful considering and questioning of what we hear that leads to the development of understanding. Thank you again for these and all the other quotes from texts, Metta Sarah ( p.s Do you have the full reference for this quote from the Cariyapitaka, so I can check the text?) ======== 56120 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:38am Subject: Theravada, Hinayana. Buddhahood etc sarahprocter... Hi Neil (& all), I hope you don’t mind me replying to the points you raised on DSG, the discussion list, as well. Others may be interested and have further comments to add. You wrote: N:>Hi!..."Theravada" seems to imply "teaching of the ancients". It is descriptive more than anything else, and nonpejorative, while "hinayana"("lesser vehicle") is slightly pejorative, in that it implies that only a perfectible one can rise to buddhahood and attain nirvana. "Mahayana" ("greater vehicle") emphasizes a sort of universal ability to attain buddhahood though the interposition of a clergy (lamas and >lamaism) and the effective deification of the Buddha. .... S: Yes, I think ‘Theravada as the ‘teaching of the ancients’ ‘ is more appropriate. According to the ‘ancients’ and the Buddha himself, there can only ever be one Buddha in a Buddha era and there is no ‘universal ability’ to attain Buddhahood. There are very detailed criteria for this and while we’re able to hear the last Gotama Buddha’s teachings,there won’t be another ‘Universal’ Buddha. If you click on these links to past letters on DSG, I think you will find them of relevance. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39652 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/47765 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21844 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21845 I hope others may have further comments and if you have any further points to add, I’d be glad to hear therm. .... N:>For a slight laugh if I may (I fear >much now after the terrible and pointless "cartoon" about Mohammed): to >show that doctrine can be overtaken by events: >MY KARMA RAN OVER MY DOGMA< .... S: Yes, this is a good one:). ... N:>And oh yes, "DHAMMA" (from my explorations), in Buddhism, seems to be essentially a Pali transliteration of the Hindu "DHARMA" (Sanskrit), >both, of course, implying "doctrine". ... S: Yes, I’m sure this is correct. Dhamma (in Buddhism) has more than one meaning. For example, it is used to refer to the teachings (the doctrine) of the Buddha. It is also used to refer to a reality. So hearing is a dhamma, sound is a dhamma, like and dislikes are dhammas. Again, there is a lot more to discuss here and I look forward to anything else you’ve been reading or reflecting on. It's good to know that you still have your keen interest in the Buddhist teachings. With metta (loving kindness), Sarah p.s I hope you’re surviving the cold winter in N.Y. ==================================================== 56121 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 653 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Nina), Thanks for your comments and good summaries. --- htootintnaing wrote: > An eye-door process: > At the 3 moments of bhanvagas, there are 2 ayatanas: manayatana > (bhavanga citta > itself) and dhammayatana (the cetasikas that are accompaning > bhavanga citta). > > At the adverting consciousness moment, there are 4 ayatanas met. The > adverting > consciousness is manayatana(1), the cetasikas accommpanying adverting > consciousness are dhammayatana(2), the visible-object is rupayatana > (3), the > pasadarupa is cakhayatana(4). > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ S: Yes, this detail (from the post I asked you to read) all looks correct to me as was the other detail relevant to our discussion on 4 ayatanas at moments of seeing etc. Thank you Nina for picking up Num's mistake re eye-sense and dvara. Maybe a typo, I'm not sure, as I think he had it correct later when he referred to the pasadarupa as cakkhayatana for entire eye-door process. (I'm also smiling as I think about K.Sujin's joke recently about Jon as door-keeper when we went on a trip. She repeated and laughed about this several times and I found it really brought home the meaning of dvara or door. For others, Jon was sitting by the door of a van and for anyone else to get in or out, they had to pass by him, the door-keeper. In the same way, without eye-sense or eye-base, the other cittas in the eye-door process cannot 'pass by'. The same applies to the mind-door adverting consciousnes (mano-dvaaraavajjana citta). K.Sujin was jokingly calling Jon, Mr 'Mano-dvaraavajjana citta' or 'Door-keeper', because he had to step out first and we all had to pass by him.). .... > Htoo: > > At the time when adverting consciousness arise 4 aayatanas are there. > > 1. manayatana > 2. dhammayatana > 3. rupayatana > 4. cakkhaayatana > > I am thinking whether dhammaayatana here is true or not because the > object is ruupayatana and not cetasika even though cetasikas of > adverting consciousness can be dhammaayatana when they are > contemplated and become the object. .... S: The ayatanas are referring of the 'coming together' or arising of various dhammas in order for there to be any experience at all. At the moment of adverting consciousness, cetasikas arise with the citta (as at every other moment too). So there always has to be dhammayatana for there to be the experience of any object. Dhammayatana doesn't refer to 'objects', though when there is a mind-door experience and the object is a subtle rupa or a nama (not a concept), there is (as it were), the dhammayatana of nama as object as well as the dhammayatana of accompanying cetasikas. Is this clear? .... > Please check with the definition of aayatana above. ... S: I think people, inc. well-known scholars, make the mistake of treating the ayatanas as 6 kinds of consciousness and their objects. I've had discussions with B.Bodhi on this point, but it's difficult if people prefer not to accept the Abhidhamma and commentary explanations and just look at the suttas or a simple explanation in D.O. as we started with here. I appreciate your feedback and keen interest, Htoo. It's a real pleasure discussing dhamma with you. Metta, Sarah ======= 56122 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:27am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 384- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (h) matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-....The magga- citta of the sotåpanna eradicates wrong > view and doubt. M: My current opinion is that such fetters like wrong view, doubt,anger,desire etc must be greatly weakened by practice to the point that they hardly appear, before magga citta can iradicate them. In fact im not sure if the suttas speak at all of magga-citta, and it doing such things, at all. IMO if we wait purely for magga-citta to get rid of them it will never happen. metta Matheesha 56123 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:24am Subject: Re: A layman who becomes an arahat buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Jon, James, Joop. > > I do not know if this can be of any help in the matter? I thought I repost > an old post on this, tranlated from the Thai: > The Parinnibbåna of the Arahat who is a Layman. Hi Nina, Thanks for this information from the Questions of King Milinda. I really respect and admire that text. However, this section doesn't really clear the matter up for me. Basically all it states is "This is not a defect in arahantship, sire, this is a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness of the attributes." What are the weaknesses in the householder's attributes? What exactly are they? AND if there are intrinsic weaknesses in the householder, how is it even possible for one to achieve nibbana? You see, not all householders are built the same. Some are much more mired in sense desire than others. I realize that you may not have the answers to these questions, I am just posing them. But, if you have any feedback it would be appreciated. Metta, James 56124 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: A question buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James (and Joop) > > Thanks for elaborating on your original question. This is something I > have wondered about too. As far as I know, there's no detailed > explanation in the texts, although Sarah's passage from the Kathavatthu > helps throw some light on it. Thanks for the post. Could you link or direct me to that post? I'm afraid I haven't been following the threads very carefully and I missed it. Thanks. Metta, James 56125 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding is Chief ... !!! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Bhante) - In a message dated 2/27/06 1:54:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > 3) > > Just as the great Ocean slopes down gradually, deepens gradually, > > inclines gradually, and not abruptly like an abyss, > > even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: > > a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), > > a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), > > a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); > > One do not suddenly penetrate to the highest Understanding... > > Anguttara > >Nikaya II 47 > .... > S: This is the text that we often need to keep in mind whenever there's > any thought of discouragement or question about quick results vs gradual > trainng. Even those like Sariputta who appeared to experience such quick > results in their last life had in fact developed pa~n~naa gradually over > aeons of lifestimes in samsara. The only quick fix is wrong view. > Appreciating that pa~n~naa itself is a conditioned dhamma and not > Sariputta's, the Buddha's, yours or mine is a little step on this gradual > path. > .... > =========================== Indeed, pa~n~na is chief, and it is a conditioned dhamma that cannot just be wished into existence. It comes about due to specific conditions. That is why the Buddha said "Chief of all the increases is that of wisdom. Wherefore I say, monks, ye should train yourselves thus: We will increase in wisdom. Ye must train yourselves to win that." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56126 From: "wchangli" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:40am Subject: difficullty understanding of Mp III 275 wchangli Hi!Dear anyone, I have difficullty to understand this paragrah, could anyone help! Yathaavimutta.m citta.m na paccavekkhatiiti yathaa ya.m citta.m vimutta.m, ye ca dosaa pahiinaa, gu.naa ca pa.tiladdhaa, te paccavekkhitvaa uparigu.napa.tilaabhaaya vaayaama.m na karotiiti attho. Iti imasmi.m suttee sattanna., sekhaana.m uparigu.nehi parihaani- kaara.na~n-ca vuddhi-kaara.na~nca kathita.m. Ya~nca naama sekhassa parihaana-kaara.na.m, ta.m puthujjanassa pa.thamameva hotiiti. (Manorathapuura.nii III p.275 = a.t.thakathaa of Anguttara-nikaaya, III, p.275) Your help are highly appreciate! Thanks a lot. From:wong 56127 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question jonoabb Hi James Here you are: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/56007 Jon buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >>Hi James (and Joop) >> >>Thanks for elaborating on your original question. This is >> >> >something I > > >>have wondered about too. As far as I know, there's no detailed >>explanation in the texts, although Sarah's passage from the >> >> >Kathavatthu > > >>helps throw some light on it. >> >> > >Thanks for the post. Could you link or direct me to that post? I'm >afraid I haven't been following the threads very carefully and I >missed it. Thanks. > >Metta, >James > > 56128 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat jonoabb Hi Nina Thanks, this is very helpful (although I can't say I really understand the similes given!). I see that the going forth of an arahant must be into the order, so I was wrong about that. I suppose it is a matter of kamma whether or not the necessary conditions for this will occur. Jon nina van gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon, James, Joop. > >I do not know if this can be of any help in the matter? I thought I repost >an old post on this, tranlated from the Thai: >The Parinnibbåna of the Arahat who is a Layman. > >Introduction. > >This was one of the subjects of discussion between King Milinda and the >arahat Någasena, as discribed in the ³Questions of King Milinda². ... >This issue deals with the parinibbåna of the arahat who is a layman. There >are two kinds of parinibbåna: the full extinction of defilements (kilesa >parinibbåna) and the full extinction of the khandhas (khanda parinibbåna). >In this issue, parinibbåna stands for the full extinction of the khandhas, >the final passing away of the arahat. He will not be reborn. > >Issue of Analysis : will a layman who attains the excellent quality of >arahatship but who does not become a monk attain parinibbåna on that day, or >within seven days? > >Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue : A layman who attains >arahatship but who does not become a monk will attain parinibbåna on that >very day. > >The source which supports this conclusion : ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh >Division, no 2: If a Householder attains Arahatship. > >Explanation of the reasons for this conclusion : > >... > > 56129 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >>Apart from our different ideas about what the 'practice' involves, we >>are in agreement on this point ;-)) >> > >------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Hey! Break out the champagne, Jon. We must drink to that! > Oh, no - I can't do that - I have willfully taken it upon myself to >observe the training precept of abstention. Now, wait a minute! I couldn't have >resolved to do that! I can't resolve to do anything, can I? Surely I'm just >imagining that there is such an element of control, right Jon? When the Buddha >talked of training precepts, he must have meant something else, right? Well, >hey, the great spiritual physician didn't actually prescribe anything, right? >It was all descriptive! (I keep on forgetting that!) > Uh, oh - what just happened? My apologies! Old man Mara must have >possessed me, Jon! I just couldn't resist! ;-))) >--------------------------------------------- > ;-)), ;-)) Of course, the resolution can be made, but the intended abstention may or may not occur when the time comes. If the Buddha did speak of training precepts (I'm not sure that he did; I seem to remember some discussion on this subject before involving Jim), it still needs to be realised, in my view, that a wholesome moment of resolution to observe the precepts is a different kind of kusala to a wholesome moment of actual abstention from the conduct in question. The latter I understand to be a moment of sila, the former not. The same goes for other aspects of kusala. A wholesome intention to develop a particular kind of kusala is not the kusala itself. So if it helps you in your quandary ;-)), by all means take upon yourself the training precept of abstention. But know it for what it is (it's not an 'element of control')! Jon 56130 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >"Here is the passage from the same part of CMA (the revised >translation and commentary of the Narada version from which your quote >is taken): > >Ch II, par. # 2 The Universals (sabbacittasaadhaara.na)Guide >'(5) One-pointedness (ekaggataa) -- This is the unification of the >mind on its object. Although this factor comes into prominence in the >jhaanas, where it functions as a jhaana factor, the Abhidhamma teaches >that the germ of that capacity for mental unification is present in >all types of consciousness, even the most rudimentary. It there >functions as the factor which fixes the mind on its object. >One-pointedness has non-wandering or non-distraction as its >characteristic. Its function is to conglomerate or unite the >associated states. It is manifested as peace, and its proximate cause >is happiness.' > >This brings out the fact that ekaggattaa as a cetasika 'concentrates' >in a momentary sense (although it also plays a role as a jhana factor >- one of the 7)." > >Dear Jon, > >Thank you. I was neglecting the fact that ekaggataa is one of seven >cetasikas which arise with each citta. In the quote, what is meant by >"associated states?" Does ekaggattaa cetasika function to unify the >six other Universals? Or to unify the states in relation to the object? > > I believe the 'associated states' referred to in the passage would be all the other cetasikas accompanying the citta. And yes, this would be in relation to the object of the citta. Jon >Sincerely, > >Scott. > > > > > > > 56131 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) jonoabb Hi Nina and Htoo nina van gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon, Htoo, >Yes, in the Commentary. Jim mentioned this once. >Nina. > > Thanks for the confirmation. I suspect there are many interesting terms in the commentaries that we haven't met in our studies to date. Those who have access to translations they can read are fortunate! Jon >op 25-02-2006 15:38 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > > > >>It is clear to me now that in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha vipassana >>bhavana is dealt with in the 'sangaha' on kammatthaana, so I guess there >>is no problem with your use of the term 'vipassana kammatthaana' >>(although I've not come across that actual term). >> >> 56132 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Jon, > >Pannatti cannot be 'the direct object of vipassanaa'. But they may >be the preparatory one. > The idea of pannatti as the preparatory object for vipassana is a new one for me. But if you have it in your books, then I'd be happy to hear more about it. Jon >Vipassanaa only see 'reality'. That is why >vipassanaa see 'anatta'. > >Samatha do not have 'the pannaa of vipassanaa', which The Buddha >discovered even though all samatha do have 'pannindriya' and they >are tihetuka cittas. Samatha will not see anatta. > >With Metta, > >Htoo Naing > > 56133 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon > >Can you explain the following a little further? > >"... when we talk about awareness being of a single dhamma only, that does >not mean awareness of just a single moment of a single dhamma. I mention >this because people sometimes question the 'single dhamma as object' idea on >the basis that it is not possible to experience single moments of >consciousness given the rapidity with which they arise and fall away." > >I am not sure what you are getting at. > > I'm just drawing the distinction between (a) awareness of a dhamma such as visible object, and (b) awareness of a single moment of visible object. All awareness, weak or strong, is awareness of a single dhamma. But I would see awareness of a single moment of consciousness as something that is the beyond even the level of knowledge required for enlightenment; the sort of thing known only by Buddhas or the great arahants. Jon 56134 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/27/06 9:39:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > ;-)), ;-)) > > Of course, the resolution can be made, but the intended abstention may > or may not occur when the time comes. ----------------------------------- Howard: Correct. The conditions underlying the resolution to abstain from intoxicants are not all the conditions in play, and they are not sufficient. --------------------------------- > > If the Buddha did speak of training precepts (I'm not sure that he did; > I seem to remember some discussion on this subject before involving > Jim), it still needs to be realised, in my view, that a wholesome moment > of resolution to observe the precepts is a different kind of kusala to a > wholesome moment of actual abstention from the conduct in question. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Well, in any case, sufficient supportive conditions are in place in my situation, and so I've managed to carry out the abstention for many years, despite *very* much enjoying cabernet sauvigion, pinot grigio, a cold beer with pizza, white russians, southern comfort, long island ice tea, and a variety of liquers! LOLOL! ----------------------------------- The > > latter I understand to be a moment of sila, the former not. > > The same goes for other aspects of kusala. A wholesome intention to > develop a particular kind of kusala is not the kusala itself. ----------------------------------- Howard: If wholesome intention is not kusala, that leaves akusala and neutral. So, which would it be, Jon? BTW, one translation of 'kusala' is 'wholesome'. ----------------------------------- > > So if it helps you in your quandary ;-)), by all means take upon > yourself the training precept of abstention. But know it for what it is > (it's not an 'element of control')! > ----------------------------------- Howard: Call it whatever you wish. But it is willed, and it has useful consequences. ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56135 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 58 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, op 26-02-2006 18:24 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Hi Nina, > > It seems to me that the abhidhamma method of understanding ignorance has > important > implications for satipatthana. In satipatthana we usually emphasize a very > narrow focus on > the present moment but in order to fully understand that moment we have to > step back from > the present and consider what in the past conditioned that moment and what > that moment > will likely be a condition for in the future. -------- N: Yes, D.O. is not theory. Thinking about D.O. is not the same as understanding it by insight. Insight can directly understand it. But not immediately. The dhammas involved in D. O. are nama and rupa, and these are only truly understood at the first stage of tender insight. At the second stage dhammas are directly understood as conditioned realities, not through thinking about them. At the first stage of principal insight there is the realization of the arising and cessation of nama and rupa. This pertains to the moments of their arising and cessation and secondly to the arising and cessation as seen according to the Dependent Origination. At this moment we cannot grasp this yet. We have to develop understanding of seeing, visible object, hearing etc. that appear now. During our sessions in Bangkok Kh Sujin reminded us of the aayatanas that associate when seeing arises. She said several times: seeing is so amazing: rupa that is visible object and the rupa of eyesense that have not fallen away yet come together so that there are conditions for seeing. Amazing that the conditions are just right for seeing. We take seeing so much for granted. -------- L: Ignorance is not only ignorance > of the four noble > truths, it is also ignorance of dependent arising. Because ignorance of > dependent arising > conditions dependent arising, understanding of dependent arising is the end of > dependent > arising. _____ N: Only the understanding of the arahat eradicates all ignorance. Nina. 56136 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments nilovg Dear Han, op 26-02-2006 12:32 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > As the last moments of a dying person are so very > fast, passing in a flash, he may not have time to do > anything to have a good death-proximate kamma > (aasanna-kamma) at the last crucial moments. This > being the case, in the absence of a heavy kamma > (garuka-kamma), can good habitual kamma > (aacinna-kamma) such as listening to the dhamma, > developing satipatthana, etc., facilitate the arising > of a good death-proximate kamma (aasanna-kamma) at the > last crucial moments of the dying person? --------- N: It can be a condition. I would not use the word facilitate. That word can still imply an idea that one can 'do' something. In reality there are many conditions which operate so that a particular kamma can produce result. It is the field of the Buddhas and if we speculate about it, it can lead to madness. ---------- > H: The reason for asking this question is to know how > important it is to develop a good habitual kamma > (aacinna-kamma) throughout our life, and not depending > on what one might try to do at the last moments which > are very fast. -------- N: I quite agree, as Matheesha also pointed out with a very good sutta. We should rather be intent on the present and not worry about the future that has not come yet. We can see the benefit of the development of kusala and understanding now, and have confidence. We may have too much concern about the 'self' and what will happen to the 'self' if we worry about the future life. This is not helpful. 56137 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, to Larry. nilovg Hi Larry, op 26-02-2006 18:41 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "He is not at the mercy of the objects that may appear at random. > True, the last five javana cittas are very weak, but it is past kamma that > conditions these javana cittas and also the object that these javana cittas > experience. These javana cittas will determine his rebirth." Larry: Is the _object_ of the last mind-door process before > dying always a resultant consciousness or should we consider the object a > "resultant object"? -------- N: The last javana cittas can experience any object through the senses or through the mind-door. Thus, they can also be sense-door process cittas experiencing visible object, tangible object, etc. The object is conditioned by kamma, and I would not call it resultant object, nor resultant citta. They are javana cittas, thus, kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but conditioned by kamma. ------- L: Also, it seems to me it doesn't matter to the rebirth consciousness what the > last javana citta > is; because it is so weak it probably has no kammic consequences. ------- N: The last javana cittas are weak, but since they are conditioned by either kusala kamma or akusala kamma they in their turn condition the next rebirth. Kamma operates in this way. As you say, their object, also condiitoned by kamma, will be the object of the rebirth-consciousness and all bhavangacittas in the next life. Nina. 56138 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-object déjà vu nilovg Dear Anthony, op 26-02-2006 10:16 schreef Antony Woods op antony272b@...: > Every sense-impression is newly arisen. It only seems like I have > sensed the object before as a lasting entity but is this just déjà vu? > Are some sense-objects less impermanent than others? ------ N: All of them are impermanent, but it seems that they were already there for some time when they are experienced. Is that what you mean by deja vu? Understanding can be developed stage by stage. First different characteristics have to be known one at a time. Nina. 56139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 26-02-2006 16:19 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Actually, Nina, my preferred understanding of D.O. is that of a > moment-to-moment process that does include the moments of "lifetime death and > rebirth" but also all other moments as well. Actually, I've detailed my > (idiosyncratic) perspective on D.O. before on DSG and elsewhere, and while it > is > different from the perspective of anyone else I've ever come across, it is a > perspective that "understand(s) birth and death at each moment, namely of nama > and > rupa," ----------- N: Very good, that is how I like to look at it. Yes please, send the post, but it will also be good for others. Because of domestic troubles I may not be able to comment much on it, but I will read it.Thank you. I also thought of you when hearing Kh Sujin on nimitta. As I tried to explain (in Alone with Dhamma): Kh. Sujin said that we are living as in a dream. The notions of nimitta and dream can help detachment she stressed. You were concerned that we saw nama and rupa as existing entities, and were afraid that the term sabhava would also lead to this. I think that it is not the use of the term that can lead to misunderstandings, but the way how one understands it. But I understand more now that there can be clinging to the 'existence' (even momentary), of nama and rupa or to ideas about them. The notion of nimtta can help to correct this. Nina. 56140 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A layman who becomes an arahat nilovg Hi James, difficult to comment on this. The monk's life and the householder's life are as far apart as heaven and earth. I can understand that. But evenso the householder can attain enlightenment, even the stage of arahatship. Still, the state of monkhood is more elevated than the layman's state. This is all for now, and maybe I think of something else. Nina. op 27-02-2006 14:24 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > "This > is not a defect in arahantship, sire, this is a defect in the > householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness of the attributes." > What are the weaknesses in the householder's attributes? What > exactly are they? AND if there are intrinsic weaknesses in the > householder, how is it even possible for one to achieve nibbana? > You see, not all householders are built the same. Some are much > more mired in sense desire than others. 56141 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/27/06 10:22:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Yes please, send the post, but it will also be good for others. Because of > domestic troubles I may not be able to comment much on it, but I will read > it.Thank you. > ====================== I may hold off on that. The materials pasted together in that post all originally appeared on DSG, and I don't want to be repetitive and burdensome. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56142 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:05am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana matheesha333 Hi Scott, > So no, I don't believe that sitting, breathing, becoming absorbed > (whatever the proper terms are) represent "useless ritual." Not at > all. I'm sorry I came across that way. I had thought that sitting, > etc. was conditioning kusula citta in the form of the jhaana factors > until I began to experience this elsewhere. > > I hope that begins to answer your question. I would greatly welcome > further questions or corrections of my terminology. If you are a > meditator, which I gather is the case, your input would be most welcome M: I posted this sometime back - we can discuss this if you like: -------------------------- .[16] Mastery in adverting is the ability to advert to the jhana factors one by one after emerging from the jhana, wherever he wants, whenever he wants, and for as long as he wants. Mastery in attaining is the ability to enter upon jhana quickly, mastery in resolving the ability to remain in the jhana for exactly the pre-determined length of time, mastery in emerging the ability to emerge from jhana quickly without difficulty, and mastery in reviewing the ability to review the jhana and its factors with retrospective knowledge immediately after adverting to them. When the meditator has achieved this fivefold mastery, then he is ready to strive for the second jhana. The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351 .html#16 M: The process of achieving jhanas is a fairly 'labour intensive'. A useful place to start would be reading the above. I train people in jhana and the experience is that it takes about 2 - 3, one hour sittings per day of mindfulness of breath of a very focused type to achieve this as a lay person (months), or in much shorter time in a retreat setting (weeks). Another possibility is people who have been doing meditation over many many years may naturally go into jhana during their practice. My lineage teaches mastery of the jhaana. (i.e.- intense pleasure apart from this is unlikely to be jhana). There has to be fairly good concentration ability, but it doesn't have to be perfect. Especially with time, it becomes easier to go into jhana when you have done it before. But in intense (and initial) retreat practice there should be an undistracted period of concentration about 30-40 minutes, maybe with a few interrupting thoughts. This level of samadhi is ripe to give rise to jhana. With time it takes less and less time to get into a jhaana from the time you sat down. For many people jhana happen naturally i.e.- they go into jhana without any control over it. They will go deeper and deeper into samadhi and suddenly emerge into a jhana. They will do this initially for a few seconds. Mastery over jhaana means having that control. In our retreat setting we tell meditators whose samadhi is good to make a determination to enter into the first jhaana. What happens next is (sometimes) a 'change' is observed. Often there is feeling of the mind being 'lifted' to a higher level. Or it might be a change in colour of what was being perceived with the eyes closed. Some people sense a rush of colours, or may experience shivering of the body for a second. (some of these phenomena change with time) But this alone isn't enough. Immediately afterwards there has to be a sensation of having entered a different state of consciousness to the one which was there before. That is, one with much more one-pointedness which is effortless (the mind feels like a 'rock'). Often in deep states of samadhi, awareness is very little. When entering into a jhana there is a sudden increase in awareness -like breaking out from under water into open air. There are still thoughts. But external distractions a limited. It is possible to experience jhana very 'thinly'. One needs to perfect the concentration more to experience a text book jhana if this is the case. (see moggallana's jhana training where the Buddha instructs him of this, when it happened). I personally experience piti and sukha more when this is done. Some people seem to experience joy and rapture much more than others. It is useful to perfect one jhana before going higher up (as mentioned by the Buddha) as it will become very hit or miss otherwise. it is possible to stay in a jhana for the time period which you will like to (internal biological clock being used). Useful to gain control over when you come out of a jhana. These movements in and out of jhaana are practised by repeatedly making determinations until one has them under control. It is possible to experience jhana factors one by one if you like to do that again by making determinations. Obviously the hindrances should be missing in a properly developed 1st jhana. When piti and sukha are developed everything one experiences at the time is tinged with these qualities. Hence if you focus on the breath it feels very 'sweet'. If you focus on any part of the body, rapture fills up that area. There must a determined effort to move your mind to focus unlike in the normal mind state where it is easy. I find that when I'm in the second jhaana I cannot move even a finger, even if I wanted to. But this might be different for different people. The higher in the jhaanas you go, the lesser control you seem to have (possibly because it is poorly developed). There is more and more solid one-pointedness. In the second jhaana discursive thinking shuts down. piti and sukha are probably at their highest here. In arupa jhaanas there is a qualitative difference in the one-pointedness. It seems spread out, rather than inwardly directed. The idea that there are 9 jhaana seems unrealistic. The stepwise progression from one jhana to the next is very interesting as these 'jumps' can be felt. However some people don't feel them very well and there can be confusion for the teacher and the student as to exactly where the student has gone! Some people only feel the steps when coming down from a higher jhana to a lower jhana. When someone comes out of jhana the rapture and samadhi (if it was strong) can carry on into their waking consciousness as well. When samadhi and jhana are well developed defilements arise less during the day time. Craving can be controlled easily. There is even less need for sleep when it is really strong. However the faculties need to be balanced. Otherwise too much samadhi can make a person feel groggy. I'm writing with some reluctance as there maybe people who will take this the wrong way. You used the term attainment, which I don't really agree with or see it as. Jhana are only a tool, but an essential one to develop. Anyone can become a sotapanna at least on his or her death bed by believing that everything is impermanent (faith-follower). But I think we need to set our sights higher. A person will think this only when they see what IS actually possible (jhanas etc). These things might sound fantastical but anyone who sets out to do this can do it. It takes determination and every one who has that can do it. Lay people can most definitely do it. I've had many friends achieving these states and they are not anything magical. All of them work and practice and have families. ------------------------ metta Matheesha 56143 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >Dear Jon, > > > >Pannatti cannot be 'the direct object of vipassanaa'. But they may > >be the preparatory one. > > > > The idea of pannatti as the preparatory object for vipassana is a new > one for me. But if you have it in your books, then I'd be happy to hear > more about it. > > Jon > > >Vipassanaa only see 'reality'. That is why > >vipassanaa see 'anatta'. > > > >Samatha do not have 'the pannaa of vipassanaa', which The Buddha > >discovered even though all samatha do have 'pannindriya' and they > >are tihetuka cittas. Samatha will not see anatta. > > > >With Metta, > > > >Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, I mean when pannatti help acquisition of calm then the calm mind can work on the former mind that have just passed away. I mean this is preparation. They are not in the book directly. Example; Buddhaanussati is pannatti. But this can step forward to vipassanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56144 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 846 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii The last post is about jhaana-javana-vara-viithi. Once there arises jhaana citta that is the first jhaana-kusala citta or 1st ruupa- kusala citta or first jhaana there also arise sannaa or memory and this helps later development of jhaana if there are conditions. When 1st jhaana is attained this has to be maintained and has to be sharpen so that the practitioner can master in the matter of 1st jhaana. As said before there are 5 principal jhaana factors. Actually there are more than 5 things as cetasikas. But these 5 cetasikas work as jhaana factors and other cetasikas just support the jhaana citta. These 5 jhaana factors are vitakka, vicaara, piiti, sukha, and ekaggataa. These are not just names. They have to be thoroughly understood. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56145 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to Phil 1. Detachment. philofillet Hi Nina > N: It is helpful to have more understanding of the reality of detachment and > when it arises. It is the cetasika alobha, non-attachment, which arises with > each kusala citta, just for a moment. Many thanks for your letter. I've printed it out and will re-read it a few times, I suspect. I'm just popping on to my sister's computer now and then so no time to write now. My parents are waiting in the next room to go for a walk. There is always so much arising through the six doors, always opportunities to develop understanding wherever we are, whatever we are doing. I do have questions to ask you about the above and other things in the letter, but not now. Thanks again. Phil 56146 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina philofillet HI Jon, Howard and all > Of course, the resolution can be made, but the intended abstention may > or may not occur when the time comes. This is a very important point. It is the moment of abstaining that is kusala, not intending to abstain. Our interest in the precepts is likely to be rooted in our desire to be wholesome people, which is self at work, of course. Not a bad thing, being a wholesome person, as long as we understand that it is understanding moments of kusala with detachment (there is alobha and adosa with every moment of kusala) that is the point of the holy life, not behaving in prescribed ways as an end in itself. Usually we cling to the precepts without understanding and by doing so tighten the bonds of self. Phil 56147 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments nilovg Dear Han, as our thread is dying moments, I have something to add. I usually read Dhamma to Lodewijk at dinner, but today he wanted to read a sutta to me. He took the beginning of my Letter about Vipassana X, as follows: Nina. 56148 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I don't think so. I also repost, so does Rob K. There are new members and older ones have forgotten. op 27-02-2006 16:45 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > The materials pasted together in that post all > originally appeared on DSG 56149 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. according to Suttanta and Abhidhamma, attention to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/27/06 2:31:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I don't think so. I also repost, so does Rob K. There are new members and > older ones have forgotten. > ========================= Okay. :-) I'll post it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56150 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:47am Subject: Buddhist Publication Society/Access to Insight - Visuddhimagga translation christine_fo... Hello all, Update on others translation efforts: Special Project: The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga) The Buddhist Publication Society and Access to Insight have begun a cooperative endeavor to make a digital transcription of Ñanamoli's translation of Buddhaghosa's classic opus, the Visuddhimagga. Section Transcription Status A B Contents, Biblio, Preface, Chap. I in progress Chap. II — Complete — Chap. III — Complete — Chap. IV in progress Chap. V — Complete — Chap. VI — Complete — Chap. VII — Complete — Chap. VIII — Complete — Chap. IX — Complete — Chap. X in progress Chap. XI — Complete — Chap. XII in progress Chap. XIII in progress Chap. XIV in progress Chap. XV in progress Chap. XVI in progress Chap. XVII in progress Chap. XVIII — Complete — Chap. XIX — Complete — Chap. XX in progress Chap. XXI — Complete — Chap. XXII — Complete — Chap. XXIII & Conclusion in progress Index, Glossary, Tables in progress http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tech/scribe.html#vism metta, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 56151 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:35am Subject: My Perspective on Dependent Origination upasaka_howard Hi, all - From my perspective, the most reasonable understanding of D.O. is a moment-to-moment one, which, to that extent puts me in the Buddhadasa Bhikkhu camp. However, my take on D.O. is different from his and from that of anyone else I have seen. The following is a pasting together of bits and pieces, slightly modified, which, together, will give some idea of my perspective on D.O. These bits and pieces came from previous posts of mine. What is the central theme, I think, is that every link of D.O. is not just what it is in more general contexts, but is an ignorance-defiled version. So, vi~n~nana in the D.O. scheme, as I see it, is not just experiential presence, but is a defiled awareness that I call "subjectivity", which invoves the sense of a knowing subject grasping a known object. But I will let the bits and pieces "speak" for themselves. My apologies to those who have seen these jabberings of mine before. 1) Ignorance-conditioned sankhara is a requisite condition for vi~n~nana, and that in turn conditions, in steps, all the remaining links of paticcasamupada, leading to eventual rebirth. But a living arahant, just as a worldling, has experience. If that experience were vi~n~nana, then that vi~n~nana would be condition for namarupa, and that for salayatana, and so on down the line, leading to rebirth!! But an arahant is not reborn. (Whatever 'rebirth' may mean!) Now, in fact, the negative reading of paticcasamupada is that with the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of fabrications and thence the cessation of i~n~nana, etc. Now, the Buddha had full and final cessation of ignorance, hence of fabrications, and hence of vi~n~nana. So, the Buddha, even the living Buddha, was freed of vi~n~nana. But clearly he wasn't unconscious! So, it seems to me that vi~n~nana must be a *defiled* awareness, an awareness infected by the sense of self. (And that makes sense, arising as it does with ignorance-conditioned sankhara as condition.) It must be an awareness in which there is the seeming of a knowing subject, and, correspondingly, a known object. (A knowing subject is an "I".) It seems to me that paticcasamuppada describes the conditioned life of a non-arahant and the mechanism for the arising of suffering in such a being. It also shows the means of escape from suffering by such a being, the breaking of the chain of dependent arising fully and for good, which likewise marks the radical transformation from non-arahant to arahant. And yet another thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if vi~n~nana is subjectivity, it is clear, I think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. 2) It occurs to me that understanding vi~n~nana as subjectivity (i.e., awareness infected by the sense of a knowing subject) and namarupa as objectivity (i.e., what is experienced viewed as an object known by a knowing subject) helps explain certain things not easily understood otherwise. One of these is the following segment of the 12-fold linkage of dependent arising: vi~n~nana --> namarupa --> salayatana If one wishes to interpret dependent origination not just in the 3-lifetime mode, but also in the "right-now" mode, as I do, this segment seems problematical. If vi~n~nana is merely awareness and namarupa is merely namic and rupic phenomena (in the context of dependent origination), why is salayatana given as consequence? It would seem clear that sense-door activation should be a necessary condition *for* awareness, not a consequence *of* it! But now think of this in the following terms: Vi~n~nana is subjectivity (awareness contaminated by sense of self), namarupa is objectivity (what is experienced sensed as object of a knowing self), and salayatana constitutes the sense doors that provide the connection/conduit between the two. A doorway or conduit between two things is dependent on those things. Without subjectivity and objectivity, there can't be a conduit between them. And, in fact, this goes a long way towards helping one understand the momentary "unraveling" aspect of dependent origination: ___________________________ From the cessation of ignorance (the propensity to self-making), comes the cessation of sankharic construction, from which comes the cessation of subjectivity, from which comes the cessation of objectivity, from which comes the cessation of conduits between subjectivity and objectivity, from which comes the cessation of contact, from which comes the cessation of self-oriented feeling, from which comes the cessation of craving, from which comes the cessation of clinging, from which comes the cessation of becoming, from which comes the cessation of birth, and death, and the whole mass of suffering. -------------------------------------------------- Every arahant, and most especially, the Buddha, went through this entire eradication process. But the Buddha still experienced, and he still felt. Is that a contradiction? I think it is not. In the Buddha there was no ignorance, hence no sankharic construction (in particular no self-oriented volition), hence no subjectivity and objectivity, hence no conduit between such, hence no contact, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, and no suffering. 3) I don't interpret the cessation phase of paticcasamupada as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance-based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (i.e., "I like", "I dislike", and "I'm neutral about", but not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective known. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self-experiencing; actually, they are merely "present". When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. 4) (This last is the fragment that most emphasizes the moment-to-moment interpretation of D.O. as most plausible.) Note that the segment of the form phassa --> vedana --> tanha --> upadana recurs millions of times within the same lifetime - a huge number of times each minute, in fact. But in the conventional, standard, 3-lifetime formulation, the earlier links within the current lifetime, namely vi~n~nana --> namarupa --> salayatana, and the subsequent links within that same lifetime, namely bhava --> jati, only occur once!! This is an anomally that just does not make any sense whatsoever to me!! The standard formulation just does not seem to hold water. On the other hand, the moment-to-moment formulation includes avijja --> sankhara occurring at the end of a lifetime just as in the midst of a lifetime, but with the next moment of vi~n~nana being rebirth consciousness, and it includes bhava --> jati, i.e., the process of rebirth of avijja and dukkha at the juncture point at the end of the current lifetime and the start of the next and also in the midst of a lifetime (with the bhava and the jati pertaining to renewed ignorance). So the moment-to-moment interpretation is by far the more general, allowing for a continual samsaric recycling within the same physical lifetime and beyond, and it avoids the problem pointed out above with regard to the recurring of the fragment phassa --> vedana --> tanha --> upadana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56152 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. dacostacharles Hi Jon, I think I did understand you correctly then. When I read it a second time, I realized I did not really know what you meant by the terms "a single moment of consciousness." I still don't but the rest of your explanation cause me to realize that my ignorance in this case is quite ok. My best guess is: "during a single instance of Consciousness (however small and/or complex that might be)." If so then I agree also, it is beyond me. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonothan Abbott Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 15:59 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon > >Can you explain the following a little further? > >"... when we talk about awareness being of a single dhamma only, that does >not mean awareness of just a single moment of a single dhamma. I mention >this because people sometimes question the 'single dhamma as object' idea on >the basis that it is not possible to experience single moments of >consciousness given the rapidity with which they arise and fall away." > >I am not sure what you are getting at. > > I'm just drawing the distinction between (a) awareness of a dhamma such as visible object, and (b) awareness of a single moment of visible object. All awareness, weak or strong, is awareness of a single dhamma. But I would see awareness of a single moment of consciousness as something that is the beyond even the level of knowledge required for enlightenment; the sort of thing known only by Buddhas or the great arahants. Jon 56153 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:27pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana buddhistmedi... Dear Scott (and Matheesha) - I am pleased to know that my inquiry not only got a satisfying clarification from you, but also a valuable practical information from Matheesha. Thank you both ! >Scott: I had thought that sitting, etc. was conditioning kusula citta in the >form of the jhaana factors until I began to experience this elsewhere. Tep: Yes. It is true that tranquillity may arise not only while one is on a cushion. I also have experienced some jhana factors such as vitakka & vicara, piti & sukha and some degree of concentration (samadhi), while walking back and forth and contemplating 'body in the body' (kayanupassana-satipatthana) long enough. Thanks for the clarification. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > "Were you asking her about conditions for kusala citta (in general, > not necessarily during samadhi bhavana) to arise, or were you asking > about the conditions that support jhana factors (that are also kusala) > during samatha meditation? After hearing her answers, do you now rule > out the whole samatha meditation (which includes the 1st Tetrad of > Anapanasati in DN22, and Kayagata-sati in MN 119) as not 'bhavana' > and, therefore, cannot condition kusala citta (to arise)? Do you > believe that they are useless 'ritual'?" > > Dear Tep, > > I'll happily attempt clarification. You can rest assured that when I > try to use a term I'll get it wrong. I'm also glad to converse with > you and ask your patience as I am really not well-versed in the Dhamma and am here to learn. > (snipped). > > I hope that begins to answer your question. I would greatly welcome > further questions or corrections of my terminology. If you are a > meditator, which I gather is the case, your input would be most welcome. > > Thank you for the opportunity to learn. 56155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:13pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha ( Scott and Han) - I commend you for the bold message #56142 on jhana. >Matheesha: "I'm writing with some reluctance as there may be people who will take this the wrong way." Tep: I hope I know how to encourage you to continue to post about your jhana experiences. Only time will tell skeptics that you have been right from the beginning. >Matheesha: >"In the second jhaana discursive thinking shuts down. Piti and sukha are probably at their highest here. >"When someone comes out of jhana the rapture and samadhi (if it was strong) can carry on into their waking consciousness as well. Tep: Very good! I would appreciate your elaboration on the above two points. Questions for Point #1 : Supposed I am in the 1st jhana this moment. How does my thinking (vitakka & vicara) "shut down" (by what action, condition) so that the 2nd jhana may arise? I want to know how you "drive" from the 1st to the 2nd level, using determination (as you stated in your previous post). How does determination shut down thinking? Question for Point #2 : According to the suttas (plus my interpretation), even the 3rd jhana can be maintained in a meditator's waking moments ("abiding", viharati) as well. Is my understanding (of the suttas, e.g. DN22) correct? DN 22: With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' [end of excerpt] Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > > So no, I don't believe that sitting, breathing, becoming absorbed > > (whatever the proper terms are) represent "useless ritual." Not at > > all. I'm sorry I came across that way. I had thought that sitting, > > etc. was conditioning kusula citta in the form of the jhaana factors > > until I began to experience this elsewhere. > > > > I hope that begins to answer your question. I would greatly welcome > > further questions or corrections of my terminology. If you are a > > meditator, which I gather is the case, your input would be most > welcome > > M: I posted this sometime back - we can discuss this if you like: > > -------------------------- > (snipped) 56156 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. TGrand458@... Send Email In a message dated 2/27/2006 4:18:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: But I would see awareness of a single moment of consciousness as something that is the beyond even the level of knowledge required for enlightenment; the sort of thing known only by Buddhas or the great arahants. Jon Hi Jon As opposed to the feeble minded arahats? ;-) TG 56157 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for this additional post and for the previous reply you had just sent. I have only one point to add to your previous reply. You wrote; Nina: I quite agree, as Matheesha also pointed out with a very good sutta. We should rather be intent on the present and not worry about the future that has not come yet. We can see the benefit of the development of kusala and understanding now, and have confidence. We may have too much concern about the 'self' and what will happen to the 'self' if we worry about the future life. This is not helpful. --------------- Han: It is true that we should rather be intent on the present, but I think we should also contemplate on the future that has not yet come. I will not use the word “worry”. Why do I want to contemplate on the future that has not yet come? For one thing, it is to get a sense of urgency (samvega). You wrote in this post that we should not forget to consider again and again eight "grounds for a sense of urgency" (Vis. IV, 63): birth, ageing, sickness and death, the sufferings connected with unhappy rebirth, the suffering in the past rooted in the cycle of rebirths, the suffering in the future rooted in the cycle of rebirths, and the suffering in the present rooted in the search for nutriment. In these eight grounds for a sense of urgency, that we should not forget to consider again and again, there are things which pertain to the future such as “death, the sufferings connected with unhappy rebirth, and the suffering in the future rooted in the cycle of rebirths”, which have not come yet. Then there is the Buddha’s advice. In AN V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta (Subjects for Contemplation), http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html the Buddha advised: "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ... "'I am the owner of my actions,1 heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...” Here, the third fact to be reflected is on “death” which has not come yet. The second part and third part of the sutta contain questions and answers – questions raised by the Buddha and answered by himself. The Buddha said that if one often reflects on death, the living person's intoxication with life (jiivite jiivitamado) will either be entirely abandoned or grown weaker, and they will not then conduct themselves in a bad way in body, in speech, and in mind. The Buddha also said that when one often reflects in this way, the [factors of the] path take birth (maggo sanjaayati). He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed. Therefore, reflection on death (which has not come yet) can even lead to the attainment of the path (maggo sanjaayati). I am not concerned about the 'self’, or what will happen to the 'self' in the future life. I am not worried about my death or for the next rebirth. I am only reflecting on the death as the Buddha had advised. I am only trying to develop kusala and the understanding, and to have confidence, as advised by you. Once again, I thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > as our thread is dying moments, I have something to > add. > 56158 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] Summarizing the different groups of akusala dhammas, they are: cankers, åsavas floods, oghas yokes, yoghas ties, ganthas ways of clinging, upådånas hindrances, nívaraùas latent tendencies, anusayas fetters, saÿyojanas defilements, kilesas Attachment, lobha, occurs in all of these groups and wrong view, diììhi, in all groups except the group of the hindrances. This reminds us of our entanglement by lobha and diììhi. Lobha and diììhi occur sometimes within one group more than once, under different aspects. We should know what the object of lobha is in each classification, because sometimes lobha stands for sensuous clinging and sometimes clinging to the result of jhåna has been included as well. Each of these groups can remind us of the dangers of akusala dhamma. For example, the classification by way of knots (ganthas) or of fetters (saÿyojanas) can remind us of the danger of being tied or chained to the cycle of birth and death. We are overcome by the cankers and by the floods, we are chained and fettered, but we may not realize it. The classification by ways of clinging (upådånas) shows us how we are in the grip of clinging to objects which are experienced through the senses and of clinging to the self. We forget that attachment cannot lead to happiness, that it leads to sorrow. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56159 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) hantun1 Dear Sarah, In your presentation of Different Groups of Defilements Part 3, I have noted the following sentence. “Attachment, lobha, occurs in all of these groups and wrong view, ditthi, in all groups except the group of the hindrances.” But I wonder why that is so – why does ditthi not occur in the group of the hindrances? One would normally think that ditthi, together with lobha, would occur in all these groups (asavas, oghas, yoghas, ganthas, upadanas, nivaranas, anusayas, samyojanas, and kilesas) without exception. In Chapter 16, Wrong View (ditthi) of 'Cetasikas' by Nina, the definition of ditthi was given as follows: “It has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault.” From the above definition, I think ditthi is an ideal ingredient for the hindrances. But why it does not occur in the group of the hindrances? Do you have any idea? With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 56160 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) sarahprocter... Dear Han, You raise good points: --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > In your presentation of Different Groups of > Defilements Part 3, I have noted the following > sentence. > > “Attachment, lobha, occurs in all of these groups and > wrong view, ditthi, in all groups except the group of > the hindrances.” > > But I wonder why that is so – why does ditthi not > occur in the group of the hindrances? .... S: I think it's implied. When there is ignorance, there are conditions for all the other unwholesome states to arise. Sometimes, especially with regard to the development of satipatthana, ignorance is given as the only hindrance: " 'By ignorance is the world shut in' is the answer to '[Tell] what is the world shut in by?'. The world is shut in by the hindrances; for all creatures have ignorance as their [in-shutting] hindrance, according as the Blessed One said "Bhikkhus, I say that, relatively speaking (vivicchaa), all creatures, all breathing things,all beings, have one hindrance only, that is to say, ignorance; for all creatures have ignorance as hindrance. And bhikkhus, it is with the entire cessation of ignorance, with giving it up and relinquishing it, that creatures have no more hindrance, I say." (Nettippakara.na"m, transl as 'The Guide'(PTS)66). And from the same text, 499: "Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the roundabout (cf Sii 178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now among men." .... > One would normally think that ditthi, together with > lobha, would occur in all these groups (asavas, oghas, > yoghas, ganthas, upadanas, nivaranas, anusayas, > samyojanas, and kilesas) without exception. > > In Chapter 16, Wrong View (ditthi) of 'Cetasikas' by > Nina, the definition of ditthi was given as follows: > > “It has unwise conviction as characteristic; > perversion as function; wrong conviction as > manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as > proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest > fault.” > > From the above definition, I think ditthi is an ideal > ingredient for the hindrances. .... S: Yes, I agree and I think it's implied. Another suggestion I have is that sometimes the first 5 hindrances (without ignorance)only are given, especially I think in the context of samatha and jhana development. These have to be clearly seen and are suppressed by appropriate conditions. However, ignorance of realities and wrong view about dhammas as being self, for example, do not have to be known in the development of samatha and attainment of jhanas. So, we need to check the context too. In the development of satipatthana, ignorance (with wrong view implied) is the only real hindrance to the path. With right view, any dhamma can be clearly known for what it is - a conditioned element. I'll look forward to any further comments. Nina or others may add more. Metta, Sarah p.s on the dycing cittas, I'm thinking it's just like now, in fact it could be now. The conditions for this moment of seeing or hearing or like or dislike now are so complex, depending on kamma and so many other conditions. No one can 'make' past kamma bring any particular result now and that's why present understanding is most precious. ======= 56161 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, to Larry. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I think we need another word to describe kamma's effect on the last citta process. It isn't exactly kamma result, nor is it kamma produced. Clearly this viithi is part of the dying process and is therefore "determined" (?) by kamma. That accounts for the nature of the object, the weakness of the javana cittas, and something (?) about registration (tadaaramma.na), but I'm a little surprised that kamma determines whether these javana cittas are kusala or akusala. Larry 56162 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and other irrealities (3) And dreams sarahprocter... Hi Joop, (Howard & Chris), --- Joop wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi Joop, > > > > ...It's not false to say (and the Buddha > > would too) that there's a sun. But we have to know this is > convenional language only. If we think we can really experience the > sun, then it's wrong or false view. .... > Hallo Sarah > > It would be easier to agree if you don't use the "only" and say > "But we have to know this is conventional language" dot > Conventional language is not less than ultimate, they serve different > goals. .... S: By 'only', I meant it is conventional language or conventional truth that there's a sun. In terms of paramattha dhammas or absolute truth, there is no sun. As you say, the kinds of language or 'truths' serve different goals. The language itself is not our real concern. The beliefs behind the language are. ... > But I'm afraid you had not my message #55965 in your mind when you > answered this .... S: I just re-read your message quickly. Paramattha dhammas are not a theory or scholastic device. They are realities such as seeing, visible object, angst or enjoyment which can be directly known now as we write. You also refer to 'the angst' with regard to all the talk about anatta. This point also relates to the comments that Christine and Howard frequently make about the path of dhammas as anatta, as beyond control as being 'hopeless and helpless'. Simply put, I think that the more we appreciate dhammas as being anatta, as not being within anyone's control, the less helpless, hopeless or angst-riddent the Dhamma is. Like Rob, I never experience such thoughts or feelings of 'hopelessness' or 'angst' about the Dhamma or the path. Perhaps I did in my meditation days when I was seeking quick results with an idea of a practice urging them on, but that was a long time ago. When there's any acceptance that there really isn't any self who can 'will' any states or dhammas to arise by any methods or actions, the big burden of willing, forcing and expectation of results or progress begins to be lifted. K.Sujin's brief response in India to the Christine's comments about 'hopelessness and helplessness' was: "Because the idea of self is there, so it's hopeless'. Letting go of the ideas of control, special doing, steps and self leads to joy and ease on the path. We can live naturally and easily without trying to make progress or get results for 'ME'. This is why there has to be detachment from the very beginning, from any dhamma arising, however exalted or lowly it may seem. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, I'd like to stress that K.Sujin never suggests anyone should learn or use Pali. However, it is easier to use Pali terms for key terms like we do here. ================= 56163 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samvega/Urgency sarahprocter... Hi Phil, It's good you're still able to chip in while you're away. You made a couple of comments to me which I'd like to respond to briefly: --- Phil wrote: > On the other hand, it is good that people find peace of mind and > freedom from intense mental suffering or depression or overwhelming > fear or grief through Dhamma. It is not the true path, but peace of > mind might be a helpful condition for the path, I guess. The > problem, if it is a problem, is that the peace of mind is taken as > an end in itself by popular Buddhism today. .... S: K.Sujin was using an expression I find very helpful: 'Each has his or her own way'. In other words, we all just look for, find and follow what we want. If someone is looking for peace of mind or less depression, then they will take steps with that in mind. It's fine, but it's not the same as the path which leads to the giving up of an idea of self. .... <...> > p.s Yes, this is what it's all about. It doesn't matter whatsoever > what people think of Acharn Sujin or DSG or whatever other story. > Not whatsoever. I'm confident of that. .... S: I agree with this. When we mind, it just shows our clinging again. The same applies to what people think or say about the Abhidhamma or commentaries. When I mentioned to K.Sujin that some people think there shouldn't be such criticisms here or at the Foundation, her response was that the Abhidhamma is not in the book. 'Each has his own way' - yes, it always comes back to the present dhammas now. We can find out what the reality is when we're concerned about the others' ways. I hope you enjoy the rest of your stay and I'm sure you'll be appreciating the many opportunities to help your family according to 'their ways'. Metta, Sarah ====== 56164 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Dear Gunasaro (Selamat & all), Many thanks for your interesting introduction. I'm very glad you've joined us here. It's also nice that you're able to join Selamat's Abhidhamma classes. What are you studying at the moment? If you have any comments or discussions to share or further questions to ask, we'd be glad to hear more from you. Do you live in Jakarta or nearby? I'm very impressed at the keen interest of the Indonesians here. Please join in any threads of interest anytime. Sukhi hotu & Metta, Sarah p.s I'd like to remind other newcomers to 'trim' messages, just keeping enough of the old message for context. ========== --- Gunasaro wrote: > I'd like to express my muditacittena of being a member in this group. 56165 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities sarahprocter... Hi Charles Ch,(& Mike), (I'm following Nina's lead with your name now - Charles Ch seems to 'work':). --- Charles wrote: > sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: > If there is any understanding of the ultimate reality of > the > > element of hardness right now (whether conceptual or directly), > there is > > no atta view at that moment. > > Exactly :-) > > Then how can we define atta or anatta at the moment? > > If hardness is not seen as it is, it become people, building, food, > etc. And then comes wrong view. > > If hardness is seen as it is, it is just hardness. .... S: I think you just answered your own question nicely:).Well said! Are there any other loose ends to tie up between us in other threads? Metta, Sarah p.s I saw your thread with Mike came to a good conclusion too. Mike, a very clear post on bhavana, #55980. ========== 56166 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hello new member from Indonesia gunasaro@... Hi Nina... Thanks for the warm welcoming... I just remembered that after few months as I started attending Vihara Dhammacakka to learn Buddhism; Fabian HC gave me one of Your books [thin with blue cover]. He described about Yourself respectfully, but I didn't interest to the subject of the book, hé³... At the time I was attracted by the religions comparable, instead of learning to observe my own self. Generally, Indonesian Buddhists are not interested in Abhidhamma, it's considered as a sophisticated & over complicated subject. But after attending the course under Nanapalo's tutoring; now Saturday morning become a very exciting moment for all of us [some are non-Buddhists]. We've convinced more & more Buddhists to learn Abhidhamma & soon we'll be having a new class in Jakarta. So far, I need to adapt more & pushing the focus into the flow. Cause I found too many new "different" things in Abhidhamma. Yes of course I have a lot of questions, but I decided to adapt & try to follow the flow, firstly. I'll bother You soon. Anumodana... Sukhi Hotu, Gunasaro -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nina van gorkom Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 22:38 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello new member from Indonesia Hello Gunasaro, Welcome here. I am so glad to hear that Selamat introduced you and that you follow the Abhidhamma course, the best way to know oneself. True, in Buddhism you learn to develop your own understanding, by considering, checking, in your daily life what you learnt. You do not follow other people, you can verify the truth of the teachings. Any remarks or questions with regard to your Abhidhamma course? <...> 56167 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question sarahprocter... Hi Joop, Good questions.... --- Joop wrote: > Sarah, one question: > You said: "The text goes on to elaborate on how an arahant cannot > live the lay life of family, home, decorations,keeping animals etc. > In exceptional circumstances, a lay person may attain arahantship, > but must give up the world." > > My question: is living, as a monk or nun, in a monastery giving up > the world? .... S: I think there are two senses of giving up the world: 1) the giving up of all defilements associated with the world, hence the Dhp verse 142 about the true meaning of being a bhikkhu 2) the giving up of the lay life and all associated with it, i.e family, home, etc Of course, true relinquishment will depend on the mental states of each monk or nun. ..... > I think it is not, a monastery is a part of the world; another part > than family life and livelihood but still the world. > There is only one way to give up te world. The active variant > (suicide) of no good. Or do you mean the passive variant: no eating, > no drinking: starvation? .... S: This latter (active or passive) course would not be any giving up of the world in either sense as I see it. The only real giving up of the world is through the giving up of attachment completely and entirely. For the arahant, who has no more desire of any kind, there would be nothing of interest at all in the lay life as I understand. It just wouldn't support this complete relinquishment as the similes from Qus of K.Milinda showed. Just as we would have no interest in visiting some vice dens, so someone with greater purity would have no interest in following our lifestyles as I see it. [An interesting speculative point following Nina & Jon's discussion concerns the attaining of arahantship in higher realms....obviously no order, so presumably there would be immediate parinibbana....]. Metta, Sarah ======== 56168 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. But, you have brought in the ignorance (avijjaa). Now we have a new dimension to consider. Of the nine groups (asavas, oghas, yoghas, ganthas, upadanas, nivaranas, anusayas, samyojanas, and kilesas) which were listed in your presentation, the following two groups do not have avijjaa. Four Ganthas (Four Ties) (1). Abhijjhaa-kaayagantha = all forms of craving (tanhaa); it is lobha present in the 8 lobha-muula cittas. (2). Vyaapaada-kaayagantha = all forms of anger or illwill; it is dosa present in the 2 dosa-muula cittas. (3). Silabbataparaamaasa-kaayagantha = adherence to the false view that one becomes pure and thus be liberated by bovine and canine morality or conduct; it also includes adherence to rites and ceremonies; it is ditthi present in the 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas. (4). Idamsaccaabhinivesa-kaayagantha = dogmatic belief that only one’s view is true and all the others are futile or that ‘this alone is truth’; it is also ditthi present in the 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas. Four Upaadaanas (Four Graspings) (1). Kaamupaadaana = sense-desire or clinging to the five sense-objects; it is lobha present in the 8 lobha-muula cittas. (2). Ditthupaadaana = clinging to all false views except the two views to be mentioned in (3) and (4); it is ditthi present in the 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas. (3) Silabbatupaadaana = clinging to the false view that one becomes pure and thus be liberated by bovine and canine morality or conduct; clinging to rites and ceremonies; it is also ditthi present in the 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas. (4) Attavaadupaadaana = clinging to the theory that the soul exists, and that I, you, he, she, persons, etc. exist; it is synonymous with ‘sakkaaya-ditthi’ which is ‘personality-belief’; it is also ditthi present in the 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas. [Source: The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, pages 258-260] Now a new question can be raised. With the importance of ignorance you had just highlighted, why is it that ignorance is not included in these two groups? With metta and deepest respect, Han 56169 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness Conceptualizations of the SATIPATTHANA SUTTA sarahprocter... Hi KenH & Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: KH:> > I believe the fourth foundation includes all possible objects of > > satipatthana that do not fall into one of the other three > > foundations. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > But there is clear overlap, Ken. :-( > --------------------------------------- > > > The Pali word is "dhammanupasana," which means > > contemplation of "paramattha dhammas cognisable by the mind," .... S: Ken H, I think Howard was correct here when he inicated an overlap. If you look at the dhammas including under dhammanupassana, you'll see that everything is included, eg the 5 khandhas. [One other small detail - sometime I think you referred to the sotapanna no longer commiting any akusala kamma patha. I think we have to be more precise - just certain kinds such as killing, stealing etc are no longer committed and there's no chance of any longer being reborn in the lower realms. Of course, no longer any wrong view either. Other kinds of akusala kamma patha, such as certain kinds of speech or certain akusala kamma patha through the mind is still possible.] I thought your long posts to each other with your further comments on the points Chris raised were good and contained a lot of useful material for further reflection. I think that when we touch on the subjects which are closest to our hearts (as opposed to topics such as whether arahants immediately join an order:)), there's bound to be a certain amount of agitation and disagreement. These topics help us all reflect further on our dearly held beliefs, so please persevere anytime. Howard, thanks also for posting your summary on D.O. I'll be glad to read any other collected summaries of your thinking too. Metta, Sarah ======== 56170 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:27am Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- H: > But what you said here you've said before, and I've given the same replies as usual. What was your point in writing beyond verbal jousting and working to score debate points? We are about as far apart on these matters as we could possibly be. So, what is being gained? ---------- At first I decided this would be a good place to end our discussion. :-) However, there are a few things that continue to bother me. I share your dislike for the practice of putting up smokescreens and straw men. You (and others) think it is K Sujin's students who put them up, but it seems to me nearly all of your objections to the way K Sujin teaches Dhamma are straw men. With regard to 'understanding the presently arisen dhammas' you wrote: ----------------- Howard: > As you know, I don't believe that even dhammas exist as things-in-themselves. ------------------ You are entitled to your original opinions, but K Sujin is teaching about paramattha dhammas the way they are taught in the texts - as absolute realities. You can't blame her for that. That might not have been a very good example of a straw man, but you followed it with: ------------------------- H: > I do not accept that any dhamma has self. ------------------------- What is the implication here? Are we to believe K Sujin says dhammas have self? ------------ Howard: > Note that the word 'begin' was emphasized in the quote, Ken. The mere adopting of a belief in anatta at the outset means little, especially when at the beginning the very notion of not-self holds little meaning. And if the "understanding" that one is supposed to start out with is significant, then one will never start out at all. A genuine understanding is not just an intellectual understanding. I understood Chris to be referring to a direct, true understanding, and I was pointing out that while that is an unreasonable requirement, an intellectual understanding is very important. ------------------------------------------- Yes, intellectual understanding comes first. Does K Sujin say differently? Does anyone seriously believe she insists on direct insight from the beginning? Surely not! And yet you wrote: --- > > Well, I just don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but that is just pretense. > > --- Continuing on: --------------- H: > > > (As to the Pali, well ... ;-)) ....... KH: > > Well what? I don't get the joke. I imagine familiarity with Pali is > an unavoidable by-product of years and decades of Dhamma study. I > see no hint of anything untoward. ...... Howard: > Nina doesn't insist on Pali, Ken. Does Khun Sujin? ---------------------------------------------- No, of course she doesn't. I have heard a tape-recording in which someone expresses the desire to learn Pali, and K Sujin asks, "Why?" She then explains it is not Pali, but understanding, that matters. ------------- H: > But I know of one person who definitely didn't insist on the Dhamma being taught and discussed via a particular language. That person was the Buddha! He told his closest followers to teach in the vernacular. ------------- Agreed (universally, I would think). But you and I, and others, selectively use Pali terms. They are often the most succinct and convenient. ------------------------------ H: > > > and that it *is* possible to see *truly*, ...... KH: > > I am sure we all say it is possible to see truly - provided that the conditions for seeing truly have been put in place. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, now, that's good. Too bad nothing can be done to foster conditions, eh? ------------------------------------------ Is that a fair comment? Nothing can be done by a self, but many things can be done by conditioned dhammas. Ultimately the world is only conditioned dhammas. And yet, when people try to express that teaching, you say they are spreading helplessness and despair. ------------- H: > And as for dhammas not arising due to willpower, I say that is utter nonsense. My arm and fingers are being lifted by willpower at this very moment! ------------- I should have left that out because it is not on the topic I wished to address ("criticism by the use of straw men"). But surely you can see that dhammas do not arise by willpower! (?) Illusory things (arms and fingers) seem to arise by illusory agents (you and me), but the Buddha did not teach illusion. ----------------------- Howard: > Save the jargon, Ken! By right effort I mean what the Buddha meant when he taught it again and again in the suttas!! I'll stick with the Buddha, thanks! Perhaps the right effort you are speaking of is something better than what the Buddha spoke of? Something more basic and important? Something only Abhidhammikas can grasp? ----------------------- Here you are not putting up straw men, you are arguing against the Abhidhamma. That is fair enough - there is no unfair criticism involved. From time to time, a DSG member will tell us, "There are many scholars of the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries, but very few of them agree with K Sujin." Whenever I hear this I look forward to a vigorous, well-informed debate. However, it always comes to nothing: the member concerned is asked to give an example of where other scholars disagree with K sujin, after which someone will quote some texts that support the Sujin perspective. Then we are told, "Bbut I don't accept *all* of the ancient texts: the Abhidhamma is a late addition, Buddhaghosa was a . . (etc., etc.). And so the goalposts are shifted and the discussion peters out to an unsatisfactory end. ----------------------------------------- Howard: > There are dhammas involved in my typing this post, Ken. They are being created with will as a condition. Now, if your post was created without your willing it, then it must have been an instance of automatic writing. Are you involed in channeling, Ken? ----------------------------------------- It is amazing that, after all of DSG's discussions, you still insist 'no control in the ultimate sense' must mean 'out of control in the conventional sense.' ------------------ H: > > > However, urging that one pay attention to whatever rises (and ceases) in the moment actually tends in the opposite direction, I think, in encouraging willful (and wholesome) mental actvity. ..... KH: > > Sorry if I digress, but how is it possible to do such a thing? ..... Howard: > I have understood Nina and Khun Sujin to urge that. Perhaps I'm mistaken in that. ----------------------------------------- They tell us that right understanding comes first. When panna has been developed to know dhammas at the intellectual level then it, along with samma-sati and the other mundane path factors, will be able to know them directly. This post is getting too long, so I will resist commenting on the other points. I am sure you (along with James, Tep and others) do not deliberately employ smokescreens and straw men, but I am also sure we will continue to accuse each other of using them. The answer must lie in understanding the other side's point of view. If only you would! :-) Ken H 56171 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Trees and Anger (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG sarahprocter... Part 1 Hi Charles D, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sorry for taken so long to get back to you, things have been a little > hectic. ... S: And it's taking me exactly a month to get back to you:-( Your good letter got buried under some other posts I'd printed out. Thanks again for helping to point out where you'd like me to respond. I love these prompts:)). .... > S: The thinking about ideas is real. But the ideas or thoughts or > concepts > about what has been seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched are not real. > If > there’s no thinking about them, they’re not experienced in any way. They > don’t arise or fall. Only the thinking does. There can be awareness of > the > characteristic of thinking, but not of an idea. .... > C: What is an idea; I always considered it a thought. Sentence 1 and 2 > contradict unless you are keying on the present (thinking) vs. the past > (thoughts). Are you saying that what ever is not experienced can not > real? > > S: “…” .... S: We need to distinguish between the idea (or thought)which is the object of thinking and the thinking itself. Now there is thinking about a computer, letters, words and so on. The cittas (consciousness) and cetasikas (mental factors) such as vitakka are real. They are namas which are experiencing the concepts or ideas of computer and words at this moment. So I'm saying that the computer and words and ideas are not real. The cittas and cetasikas arising and experiencing these concepts are real. There can be awareness of thinking. There cannot be awareness of computer. ..... > .... > Charles: "What do you mean by this, learning and directly knowing what > the > realities are?" > > S: Take thinking or seeing or hearing or visible object or sound now – > they > have characteristics, there can be awareness of them when they appear, > one > at a time. At that moment, no other ‘world’, no other dhamma appears or > can > be known. This is in contrast to ideas. > > C: How is this in contrast to ideas? > > S: “…” > ..... S: As I said, the former realities have characteristics which appear and which can be directly known. Take sound - it arises, it's heard and it falls away. It has its particular quality which is different from visible object. There can be awareness of it now. Ideas can only be thought about. to be contd Metta, Sarah ======== 56172 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Trees and Anger (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG sarahprocter... Part 2 contd <...> > C: Why is it important to learn the difference between direct awareness > of > realities and thinking about realities? > > S: “…” .... S: By thinking about realities, there will never be any development of the Path and it will never lead to the direct understanding, realisation of nibbana, release from Dukkha etc. Nothing is actually known by thinking. Doubts and wrong views can never be overcome in this way. .... <..> > C: By “direct awareness,” do you mean full attention? > > When you say, “…understand what is experienced when we look at a > computer > and what can be directly known,” are you trying to say we need to > separate, > or know the difference between, the thought about an object from the > perception of the object? > > S: “…” .... S: By 'direct awareness', I don't mean 'full attention' as we use it in a conventional sense. There can be 'direct awarness' when we're very distracted (in a conventional sense) or anytime at all. Direct awareness refers to the awareness of a dhamma when it appears momentarily. We need to know the difference between the reality of thinking and the concept of the object which is only ever an idea. .... <..> > S: This is just thinking about ideas. When there’s growing awareness of > anger, it gradually becomes evident that it doesn’t last a > ‘finger-snap’. > When it seems to last a long time, it’s just a story about anger. In > between > there’s seeing, hearing, attachments and all sorts of other realities > arising and falling away. ... > C: Are you talking about the emotion anger, or the awareness of anger? > > There is some truth to what you are saying. It is really a question of > attachment. If the attachment to the anger is stronger than perception > and > the other things that arise, then your “finger snap” can take … (what > ever, > including forever in a realm). > > S: "…" .... S: Anger is a mental factor which rises and passes away v.quickly. It's not yours or mind. It's not a lasting emotion. Yes, the attachment and ignorance and perverted perception lead to this idea of lastingness and 'my anger'. .... >S:........Tree on the other hand is a label which > represents something thought about. It’s a concept about a concept. Test > it out now: how is ‘tree’ experienced? > > C: For humans and most other animals, Via Seeing, Touching, smelling, > tasting, hearing, and thinking. > > S: "…" ... S: Exactly. So actually, what is experienced is the seen object, the touched object, the smelt object, the tasted object, the heard object and the idea thought about. .... <...> > C: What do you mean by "idea of 'something' in the visible or tangible > objects," do you mean an essence? I am not sure what you mean here. > > S: If we have an idea that ‘tree’ or ‘computer’ is in the visible > object, > then it’s just an idea about visible object, not just the characteristic > of just that which is seen. > > C: Are you trying to say "see w/o labeling, analysis, or recognition. > > S: "…" .... S: No, the seeing, labelling, recognition and so on carry on just as they always have. The only difference is in the awareness and understanding of what is real at such times. At the moment of seeing, there is no labelling. The characteristic of seeing can be directly known now. It is that reality which experiences visible object and no other object. > .... <...> > C: So, it sounds like you want to block the aggregates of memory, > feelings, > and intellect. Do you? > > S: "…" .... S: No - even if there was any wish to, it would be quite impossible. These are conditioned dhammas arising at every moment, quite beyond the power of any illusionary self to 'block'. They are realities which can be directly known. ..... <...> > C: Boy, in a nut-shell, are you trying to say the following. "Attachment > arises from sensual contact. Sensual contact is a problem when memories, > feelings, intellect, and motivations begin to add to the object sensed. > Therefore, be careful less they arise and add to the object, thus > priming > the mind for suffering." > > If so, your way of expressing this is confusing, and when I read the > suttra > references, I think I understand what you are getting at. Throwing in > the > concept, "realities," clouds the real issue of knowing when you are > "becoming..." > > S: "…" .... S: No. The only problem is not understanding these various dhammas for what they are. They are bound to arise, but usually we're so lost in the attachments and stories about what is seen, heard or felt, that there's no awareness at all. What do you mean by the 'real issue of knowing when you are 'becoming'? Metta, Sarah ========= 56173 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you for your consideration. --- han tun wrote: > Now a new question can be raised. With the importance > of ignorance you had just highlighted, why is it that > ignorance is not included in these two groups? .... S: I think the different groups all raise different aspects or give a different emphasis of the defilements. It's easier for me to answer your question with regard to the 4 upadanas. We cling to sense objects all day, also to wrong views, special practices and of course self, but I don't think we cling to ignorance! As for the 4 ganthas, I don't really know why ignorance is not included, but I can only think these again specifically referring to the knots of attachment (and wrong view) and also aversion, conditioned by attachment too. Nina, Htoo or someone else may have a better answer. .... > Of the nine groups (asavas, oghas, yoghas, ganthas, > upadanas, nivaranas, anusayas, samyojanas, and > kilesas) which were listed in your presentation, the > following two groups do not have avijjaa. > > Four Ganthas (Four Ties) > Four Upaadaanas (Four Graspings) > >> [Source: The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm > Tin Mon, pages 258-260] .... S: I trimmed out the detail, but I wish to stress how helpful it is. We have a copy of Dr Mehm Tin Mon's book which Rob M gave us. These lists and details are very useful. (You'll meet RobM here sometime - he teaches Abhidhamma in Malaysia). Han, I was just checking off-list with Sukin about the books we discussed and he told me he's sent you a copy of 'Survey' and I think that you may be meeting K. Sujin at the Foundation on Saturday? If so, please also raise any of these good questions with her and share any of her answers. Also, pls share any other impressions and perhaps we'll see you there when we next visit. Let's see. Thank you again for joining these discussions. I'd be glad to hear any further reflections you have on any of these points - you've obviously considered them deeply. Metta, Sarah ========== 56174 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/06 5:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > (Howard) A genuine understanding is not just an intellectual understanding. > I > understood Chris to be referring to a direct, true understanding, and > I was pointing out that while that is an unreasonable requirement, an > intellectual understanding is very important. > > > ------------------------------------------- > > Yes, intellectual understanding comes first. Does K Sujin say > differently? Does anyone seriously believe she insists on direct > insight from the beginning? Surely not! And yet you wrote: > > --- > >>Well, I just don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in > fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but that > is just pretense. >> > --- > > ========================= What do you mean "And yet you wrote"!!!?? Please read again what you quoted me as saying at the top, that I understood Chris to be referring to a direct, true understanding, and then see that at the bottom I was referring to that when I said that it is an unreasonable requirement to be starting out with that. It helps to be perplexed by what I say rather than what I don't say (if you are going to be perplexed by anything at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56175 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/06 5:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, now, that's good. Too bad nothing can be done to foster > conditions, eh? > ------------------------------------------ > > Is that a fair comment? Nothing can be done by a self, but many > things can be done by conditioned dhammas. Ultimately the world is > only conditioned dhammas. And yet, when people try to express that > ====================== There is no debate here, Ken. I don't believe in self, and I have personally experienced not being or having one. This is a red herring, Ken. You raise this non-issue as a way of hiding the view that nothing can be done, that willing is illusion. (Unless, of course, you yourself actually believe that there is no willing without a self who wills. But if that is so, it is your problem, not mine.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56176 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/06 5:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > ----------------- > Howard: >As you know, I don't believe that even dhammas exist as > things-in-themselves. > ------------------ > > You are entitled to your original opinions, but K Sujin is teaching > about paramattha dhammas the way they are taught in the texts - as > absolute realities. You can't blame her for that. > > =========================== There's nothing opriginal about that "opinion" I stated. It is a fundamental matter of conditionality.W, when you say "texts" you never seem to mean suttas! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56177 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am completely satisfied with your answer. What I like best is your answer, “I think the different groups all raise different aspects or give a different emphasis of the defilements.” That must be it! As regards the book, “A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas”, I received it today and I phoned Sukinderpal to thank him. We also made arrangements for me to go to the Foundation on Saturday. I am very happy to have the chance to meet Khun Sujin. I also emailed to Nina thanking her. She has done an excellent work. I am surprised how any person could translate such a difficult book from Thai language. She must have put in a really hard work. With metta and deepest respect, Han 56178 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/06 5:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > ------------- > H: > And as for dhammas not arising due to willpower, I say that is > utter nonsense. My arm and fingers are being lifted by willpower at > this very moment! > ------------- > > I should have left that out because it is not on the topic I wished > to address ("criticism by the use of straw men"). But surely you can > see that dhammas do not arise by willpower! (?) Illusory things (arms > and fingers) seem to arise by illusory agents (you and me), but the > Buddha did not teach illusion. ========================= You either are just not getting it or are purposely being difficult. There is no discussion of agents at all! There is impulsion and fingers move!! Willing does occur. Moreover, there IS mind-created rupa rupa engendered by cetana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56179 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 0:30am Subject: Friendliness Frees ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Friendliness & Goodwill is the Ninth Mental Perfection: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Symbiosis Only friendliness can completely relinquish the poison of hate and anger! It's characteristic is promoting other being's welfare, it's function is to do only good, and it's manifestation is kindness, sympathy, & gentleness... The proximate cause of friendliness is seeing the good aspects of things! The proximate cause of understanding compassion is this very friendliness! The Blessed Buddha said: I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love & one who always delight in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, and make it immovable and unshakable. I develop these divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha 648-9 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. AN II 72 A friend who always lends a hand, a friend both in sorrow and joy, a friend who offers good counsel, a friend who sympathizes too. These are the four kinds of true friends: one who is wise, having understood, will always cherish and serve such friends just as a mother tends her only child. DN III, 188 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived on the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 And how does a bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on seeing a dearly favourite person, so he extends loving-kindness to all beings in all directions, as above so below. Abhidhamma Pitaka: Appamañña-vibhanga There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness pervading first one direction, then a second one, then a third one then the fourth one, as below so above, across & all around, everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is encompassing the whole world with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness, with a mind wide, developed, unbounded, cleared, exalted, pure & bright, free from hate and ill will ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of understanding compassion pervading first the front, then the right side, then the back, then the left side, as below so above, across & all around, all over, far & wide; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is perfusing the whole universe with a mind imbued with pity, with a spacious mind, a refined mind, infinite, cleared, pure & brilliant, freed from all anger and any trace of enmity ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of altruistic & sympathetic joy pervading the North, then the East, then the South, then the West, as below so above, across & all around, universally, infinitely; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is suffusing all galaxies with a mind full of genuine mutual & altruistic sympathetic joy, with an open mind, vast, limitless, purified, cleared, pure & shining, free from aversion and bitterness ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of balanced equanimity pervading first the frontal quadrant, then the right, then the rear & then the left quadrant, as below so above, across & all around; and everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is permeating the whole world with a mind satiated of balanced equanimity, calmed, with a mountain-like mind, cultivated, endless, cleared, pure & dazzling, freed from any irritation & resentment ...' Minor Readings and the Illustrator So too, bhikkhus, others may speak to you timely or untimely, true or untrue, gentle or harsh, beneficial or for harmful, based on kindness or on bitter hate! If they abuse you verbally, you should train yourselves in this way: "Our minds will remain unaffected, we shall speak no angry words, we will dwell friendly and understanding, with thoughts of kindness and no inward anger. We shall remain friendly and beam goodwill towards that very person, and we shall dwell extending it to the entire universe, mentally overflowing, exalted, measureless & infinite in amiability, without any trace hostility nor ill-will." That is how you should train yourselves. Even if bandits were savagely to cut you up, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, one who harbours hate from that account, would not be one who carried out my teaching. Bhikkhus, you should keep this instruction on that Simile of the Saw constantly in mind. Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 21 Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by persisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit. What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes up Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison, nor Weapons ! One easily Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm, & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment, nor Panic ! One reappears after death on the Brahma level, if one has penetrated to no higher level in this very life ! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Friendliness, by cultivating Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by properly consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a familiar supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected.' Anguttara Nikaya V 342 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. Samyutta Nikaya. I 208 When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world -- above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. Jataka 37 Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance, this release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56180 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 0:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/06 7:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 2/28/06 5:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowa@... writes: > > >------------- > >H: >And as for dhammas not arising due to willpower, I say that is > >utter nonsense. My arm and fingers are being lifted by willpower at > >this very moment! > >------------- > > > >I should have left that out because it is not on the topic I wished > >to address ("criticism by the use of straw men"). But surely you can > >see that dhammas do not arise by willpower! (?) Illusory things (arms > >and fingers) seem to arise by illusory agents (you and me), but the > >Buddha did not teach illusion. > ========================= > You either are just not getting it or are purposely being difficult. > There is no discussion of agents at all! There is impulsion and fingers > move!! > Willing does occur. Moreover, there IS mind-created rupa rupa engendered by > cetana. > > With metta, > Howard > > ========================= Another point, Ken. I know that arms and fingers are merely conventional objects. But that's how people speak, Ken, including the Buddha. When we speak of arms and fingers moving, the reality, besides visual phenomena, involves earth element and air element (heaviness and motion), and they are mind-engendered rupas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56181 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, sense of urgency nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for your post and the appropriate suttas. I take to heart the Upajjhatthana Sutta. I had this on the Pali list (pali yahoo) and one of teachers said that I will need this sutta in times of trouble. I have some additional thoughts I will insert in your text. op 28-02-2006 02:21 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > It is true that we should rather be intent on the > present, but I think we should also contemplate on the > future that has not yet come. I will not use the word > “worry”. > Why do I want to contemplate on the future that has > not yet come? > For one thing, it is to get a sense of urgency > (samvega). > > You wrote in this post that we should not forget to > consider again and again eight "grounds for a sense of > urgency" (Vis. IV, 63): birth, ageing, sickness and > death.... > > Then there is the Buddha’s advice. > > In AN V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta (Subjects for > Contemplation), > the Buddha advised: > "There are these five facts that one should reflect on > often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or > ordained. Which five? > "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' > This is the first fact that one should reflect on > often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or > ordained. > "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond > illness.' ... > "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' > ... > "'I will grow different, separate from all that is > dear and appealing to me.' ... > "'I am the owner of my actions,1 heir to my actions, > born of my actions, related through my actions, and > have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for > good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...” ..... > The Buddha said that if one often reflects on death, > the living person's intoxication with life (jiivite > jiivitamado) will either be entirely abandoned or > grown weaker, and they will not then conduct > themselves in a bad way in body, in speech, and in > mind. -------- N: In Bangkok we discussed a sense of urgency, samvega. I had heard that samvega is food for viriya, right effort. Khun Sujin answered whether is want samvega for myself. For me this was extremely helpful. I find that I usually cling to samvega as a state I have, the idea of 'I have a sense of urgency, I should have it.' Now, the Abhidhamma can help us, teaching us that there are countless cittas arising and falling away in a flash. We learn that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, whether we like it or not. Thus, we may contemplate suttas on samvega with kusala cittas, but we can be sure that there are immediately akusala cittas that think of 'self' wanting to have a sense of urgency. But nobody else can tell us, everybody has to develop his own understanding. Only after the first stage of tender insight can we know more precisely the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta. H: The Buddha also said that when one often reflects in > this way, the [factors of the] path take birth (maggo > sanjaayati). He/she sticks with that path, develops > it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, > develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are > abandoned, the obsessions destroyed. -------- N: Samvega is only in one moment. When there can be awareness of a nama or rupa we are not negligent, there is samvega without having to think in words about it. Some people may be discouraged when they hear that there often is an idea of self who wants to have samvega, but it is beneficial to know the truth, so that we do not mislead ourselves our whole life. Kh. Sujin's reminders may sound harsh, but we can appreciate them. We should be courageous and face the truth. ---------- H: Therefore, reflection on death (which has not come > yet) can even lead to the attainment of the path > (maggo sanjaayati). ---------- N: Yes, it can, but only if we understand that the development of the Path can be at this moment, namely when there is awareness of one dhamma at a time. Without this understanding we may reflect on death our whole life, but there will not be any fruit. We learn that there is birth and death at each moment, namely the arising and falling away of citta. Through the development of the Path we can directly understand momentary birth and death. This is different from thinking about death in conventional sense. --------- Nina. 56182 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello new member from Indonesia nilovg Hi Gunasaro, I always rejoice when people begin to take an interest in Abhidhamma. I am glad Nanapalo (Selamet) makes the class so interesting. I hope to hear more about your discussions. Looking forward, Nina. op 28-02-2006 04:13 schreef Gunasaro op gunasaro@...: But after > attending the course under Nanapalo's tutoring; now Saturday morning become > a very exciting moment for all of us [some are non-Buddhists]. We've > convinced more & more Buddhists to learn Abhidhamma & soon we'll be having a > new class in Jakarta. 56183 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, to Larry. nilovg Hi Larry, op 28-02-2006 06:18 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > I think we need another word to describe kamma's effect on the last > citta process. It isn't exactly kamma result, nor is it kamma produced. > Clearly this viithi is part of the dying process and is therefore > "determined" (?) by kamma. ------- N: conditioned by kamma. I have to look it up, I think: by way of natural strong dependence. (My books are out of reach now). ------- L:That accounts for the nature of the object, -------- N: Yes. ---------- L: the weakness of the javana cittas, -------- N: This is due to their being the last ones of that life. The hearbase is also weak. -------- L and something (?) about registration > (tadaaramma.na), ------ N: As far as I remember these may or may not arise. -------- L:but I'm a little surprised that kamma determines > whether these javana cittas are kusala or akusala. ----------- N: They are very special. They condition the next rebirth to be the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. We cannot find out all the details and how it operates exactly. Nina. P.S. I now have to close down the computer for one or two days, the painters start with my study. 56184 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and other irrealities (3) And dreams nilovg Hi Sarah, yes, that is so helpful, I think: Always those good reminders how much we are entangled in this self idea. It appears before we realize it. NIna. op 28-02-2006 07:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > When there's any acceptance that there really isn't any self who can > 'will' any states or dhammas to arise by any methods or actions, the big > burden of willing, forcing and expectation of results or progress begins > to be lifted. K.Sujin's brief response in India to the Christine's > comments about 'hopelessness and helplessness' was: "Because the idea of > self is there, so it's hopeless'. > > Letting go of the ideas of control, special doing, steps and self leads to > joy and ease on the path. We can live naturally and easily without trying > to make progress or get results for 'ME'. This is why there has to be > detachment from the very beginning, from any dhamma arising, however > exalted or lowly it may seem. 56185 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments mlnease Hi Han, ----- Original Message ----- From: "han tun" To: Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments > As the last moments of a dying person are so very > fast, passing in a flash, he may not have time to do > anything to have a good death-proximate kamma > (aasanna-kamma) at the last crucial moments. This > being the case, in the absence of a heavy kamma > (garuka-kamma), can good habitual kamma > (aacinna-kamma) such as listening to the dhamma, > developing satipatthana, etc., facilitate the arising > of a good death-proximate kamma (aasanna-kamma) at the > last crucial moments of the dying person? > > The reason for asking this question is to know how > important it is to develop a good habitual kamma > (aacinna-kamma) throughout our life, and not depending > on what one might try to do at the last moments which > are very fast. I haven't yet read Nina's or other replies but thought this pertinent from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Chapter Five, Compendium of the Process Freed: "Habitual (aaci.n.na) kamma is a deed that one habitually performs, either good or bad. In the absence of weighty kamma and a potent death-proximate kamma, this type of kamma generally assumes the rebirth-generative function." I hope this is of some use to you and am very glad to have your contributions to this list. mike 56186 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and other irrealities (3) And dreams jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, (Howard & Chris), > Hallo Sarah, all Two short remarks. First; Sarah: "I think that the more we appreciate dhammas as being anatta, as not being within anyone's control …" Some comments: - "Appreciate" and "dhammas" are not terms that belong together - To me "dhammas as being anatta" is not correct said: "anatta" means that "atta" does not exists, but you make a kind a property, a chararacteristic or (the most worse expression) a sabhava of the term "anatta" - Who is talking about anyone's control? I'm not, perhaps this is Howards discussion but not mine; as I said again and again: anatta is not a problem to me, it's anicca that my central theme. The second and more important remark: Joop (some days ago): "But I'm afraid you had not my message #55965 in your mind when you answered this .... " Sarah: I just re-read your message quickly. Paramattha dhammas are not a theory or scholastic device. They are realities such as seeing, …" Joop (now): the core quote was: Joop (a week ago): "also the socalled ultimate truth is an illusion, there is no ultimate truth, we need a truth and create/construct it". Perhaps I had to say it more explicit: what I said is a Mahayana- opinion, I evolve - not being within anyone's control - to a Mahayanist. Metta Joop PS, In another message you say: "An interesting speculative point following Nina & Jon's discussion concerns the attaining of arahantship in higher realms...." I don't know how it is to you but to me "higher realms" are concepts, illusions, made by the mind of some human beings in the past. 56187 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 817 ) mlnease Hi Jon (and Htoo), I've been following your discussion with considerable interest. A question for Jon below: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 817 ) > And since there is no apparent > kusala (especially panna) involved in staring at a disc of earth, I > think we have to ask ourselves whether samatha is something much more > than that. It seems to me that calm (therefore samatha bhaavanaa) is simply kusala by itself whether attended by pa~n~naa or not. Is this not in keeping with the texts? Any citations? Thanks in Advance, mike 56188 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, sense of urgency hantun1 Dear Nina, I appreciate your additional thoughts that you had inserted in my text. In one of your inserts, you wrote: ------------------------------ H: Therefore, reflection on death (which has not come yet) can even lead to the attainment of the path (maggo sanjaayati). ---------- N: Yes, it can, but only if we understand that the development of the Path can be at this moment, namely when there is awareness of one dhamma at a time. Without this understanding we may reflect on death our whole life, but there will not be any fruit. We learn that there is birth and death at each moment, namely the arising and falling away of citta. Through the development of the Path we can directly understand momentary birth and death. This is different from thinking about death in conventional sense. ------------------------------ Han: I like your comment “without this understanding we may reflect on death our whole life, but there will not be any fruit” very much. But the reflection on death can lead to samvega, and samvega (with understanding, as you said) can lead to vipassana nana. Vipassana nana can lead to magga nana. This is the benefit one can get by the reflection on death. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Thank you for your post and the appropriate suttas. > I take to heart the > Upajjhatthana Sutta. 56189 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, to Mike hantun1 Dear Mike, Mike: "Habitual (aaci.n.na) kamma is a deed that one habitually performs, either good or bad. In the absence of weighty kamma and a potent death-proximate kamma, this type of kamma generally assumes the rebirth-generative function." I hope this is of some use to you and am very glad to have your contributions to this list. -------------------- Han: Thank you very much for your cetana. I have the book you are referring to. I also noted that passage. I just wanted to confirm this fact with a distinguished person like Nina. This emphasizes the desirability of accumulating a good habitual (aaci.n.na) kamma all throughout our life. We must accumulate a good habitual (aaci.n.na) kamma to the stage it becomes a “habit” as the name implies. One Burmese writer gave a simile. If you fold a piece of paper in the same way many times a day, overtime the paper becomes very easy to get into the original folding with a slight touch of your fingers. In the same way one must practice wholesome deeds (especially vipassana meditation) all the time until it becomes like an often-folded paper. With metta, Han --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Han, > I haven't yet read Nina's or other replies but > thought this pertinent from > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Abhidhammattha > Sangaha, Chapter Five, > Compendium of the Process Freed: > 56190 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:47pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] > > Summarizing the different groups of akusala dhammas, they > are: cankers, åsavas floods, oghas yokes, yoghas ties, ganthas ways of clinging, upådånas hindrances, nívaraùas latent tendencies, anusayas fetters, saÿyojanas defilements, kilesas Part 3 to be continued) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, I think it is 'yoga' rather than 'yogha'. With respect, Htoo Naing 56191 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:52pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 846 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii The last post is about jhaana-javana-vara-viithi. Once there arises jhaana citta that is the first jhaana-kusala citta or 1st ruupa- kusala citta or first jhaana there also arise sannaa or memory and this helps later development of jhaana if there are conditions. When 1st jhaana is attained this has to be maintained and has to be sharpen so that the practitioner can master in the matter of 1st jhaana. As said before there are 5 principal jhaana factors. Actually there are more than 5 things as cetasikas. But these 5 cetasikas work as jhaana factors and other cetasikas just support the jhaana citta. These 5 jhaana factors are vitakka, vicaara, piiti, sukha, and ekaggataa. These are not just names. They have to be thoroughly understood. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56192 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, to Mike mlnease Dear Han, Just as you say, Sir. Referring a question to Nina is always a privilege because of the breadth and depth of her knowledge of the texts. I've learned at some expense the value of deferring--however reluctantly--my own intuitions to the explanations of the Elders. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "han tun" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, to Mike > Dear Mike, > > Mike: > "Habitual (aaci.n.na) kamma is a deed that one > habitually performs, either good or bad. In the > absence of weighty kamma and a potent death-proximate > kamma, this type of kamma generally assumes the > rebirth-generative function." > I hope this is of some use to you and am very glad to > have your contributions to this list. > -------------------- > Han: > Thank you very much for your cetana. > I have the book you are referring to. > I also noted that passage. > I just wanted to confirm this fact with a > distinguished person like Nina. > > This emphasizes the desirability of accumulating a > good habitual (aaci.n.na) kamma all throughout our > life. We must accumulate a good habitual (aaci.n.na) > kamma to the stage it becomes a "habit" as the name > implies. > > One Burmese writer gave a simile. If you fold a piece > of paper in the same way many times a day, overtime > the paper becomes very easy to get into the original > folding with a slight touch of your fingers. In the > same way one must practice wholesome deeds (especially > vipassana meditation) all the time until it becomes > like an often-folded paper. > > With metta, > Han 56193 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:51pm Subject: Dhamma Threasd ( 847 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Those who are used to Dhamma Thread will know that 'jhaana' have been repeatedly explained in Dhamma Thread in many parts. When discussing citta, jhaana are discussed as jhaana cittas. When viithi vaaras are discussed jhaana-javana-viithi-vaaras are discussed. When realms or planes of existence or bhuumis or places for beings are discussed jhaana are discussed again. Now in kamma.t.thaana portion, jhaana are agained discussed. Now I think the first jhaana has been explained in connection with pathavii kasi.na. After each attainment mastery have to be exercised. There are five masteries in jhaana matters. They are 1. aavajjana vasii (mastery in adverting) 2. samaapajjana vasii(master in attaining) 3. adhi.t.thaana vasii(mastery in predetermination) 4. vu.t.thaana vasii(mastery in emerging) 5. paccavakkha.na vasii(mastery in retrospecting/scrutizing) Unless these masteries are not exercised jhaana will not stay as we wish. Through these 5 exercises jhaana factors are examined and they are detached one after another while going up higher jhaana and finally only one left. It is 'ekaggataa' or one-pointedness. Vedanaa-wise it is associated with upekkha in 5th ruupa-jhaana. Upekkhaa replace jhaana factor sukha. The same applies to all other 9 kasi.nas. So I assume that all 10 kasi.nas and all 5 ruupa-jhaana have been discussed. The only difference is the object. In tejo it is tejo and in vayo it is vayo. And apo is apo and other kasi.na also have their own object as parikamma nimitta. As explained before all these 10 kasi.nas can give rise to full ruupa jhaanas. That is all 5 ruupa jhaanas. If one can attain all 10 kasi.nas up to the level of 5th ruupa jhaana then he can ascend up higher aruupa jhaana. Except aakaasa kasi.na, all other 9 kasi.na can well be the basis kasi.na to ascend higher aruupa jhaana. This is because aakaasa is already aakaasa. So there is no possibility to ascend up aruupa jhaana through aakaasa-kasi.na (AS). Aruupa jhaanas have also been explained in jhaana portion. When all 4 aruupa jhaanas have been attained then one can be said that he or she attained all 4 ruupa jhaanas(all 5) and all 4 aruupa jhaanas. In that case it is said 8 jhaana-samaapatti have been attained. But this requires mastery. After mastery then another exercises are needed to play jhaana. One has to exercise all kasinas from 1 to 10 and then exercise from 10 to 1. After this from 1 to 10 and then 10 to 1 in serial order. All jhaanas from 1 to 8 have to be exercised and then exercise from 8 to 1. At other time exercise from 1 to 8 and then 8 to back to 1. Jumping kasina from 1 to 3 to 5 and so on and jump back. Jumping jhaana from 1st to 3rd to 5th and so on and then jump back. Jumping both kasina and jhaana. Switch over and check jhaana factors from one factor to another and so on. Deal with object from one to another and so on. When these are done mastery in jhaana will be attained. This help in using jhaana power. Jhaana power are not used for attachment. Jhaana power are not dictated by atta. Jhaana power always have a good cause. In viithi vaaras different jhaana viithi have been explained. Kasina are main kamma.t.thaana that are used for jhaana power. For invlovement of any material things like images of one or many same or different beings or different states of inanimate objects are done through pathavii kasina. (iddhividdha). Tejo kasi.na is used for light, fire, heat, ignition, burning, vision, dibbacakkhu or deva-cakkhu. Apo kasi.na is for flowing, sinking like sinking into the earth etc. Vayo kasi.na is for dibbasota or deva-sota or divine ear, wind, breeze, storm, movement, etc. Niila kasi.na is for darkening, blackening, making-night, covering, shielding, hiding, etc. Piita kasi.na, lohita kasi.na, odaata kasi.na are for light, vision, and along with tejo for seeing others' mind or for reading others' mind. These colour kasi.nas along with niila kasi.na can be used in iddhividdha abhi~n~naana in terms of colour creation. For this 'the mind has to react very quickly'. Science will not be able to detect the earliest source of these when the mind starts working on abinnaana matters. For iddhividdha abhinnaana kasinas have to be run very quickly from one to another. In this matter Mahaamoggallaana is very fast. But Moggallaana could not follow The Buddha fast abhinnaana. When javana cittas arise they arise in a succession of 7 cittas. When dying there are just 5 javana cittas. When The Buddha do yamakapa.tihaara there arise just 4 javana cittas and just after 2 bhavana cittas manodvaravajjana intervenes and then another kasi.na arise with 4 javana cittas and after another 2 further kasi.nas are continued. This is Buddha matter and even Moggallaana cannot do like The Buddha. All other 30 kamma.t.thaana can give rise up to upacaara samaadhi or upacaara bhaavanaa. 10 asunha kamma.t.thaanas can give rise up to 1st ruupa jhaana. Kaayagatasati kamma.t.thaana can give rise to 1st ruupa jhaana. Aanaapaanasati can give rise to full ruupa jhaana that is all 4 or 5. Mettaa, karu.naa, muditaa can give rise up to 4th ruupa-jhaana- cittas or 3rd ruupa jhaana. Based on 3rd ruupa jhaana of mettaa or karu.naa or muditaa upekkhaa can give rise to 5th ruupa jhaana (4th ruupa jhaana). Aruupa jhaanas are serially based on lower aruupa jhaana object and the lowest one aakaanancaayatana (akasa-ananta-ayatana) is based on one of 9 kasi.na object. Akasanancatana cannot based on akasa kasina. These 40 kamma.t.thaana can separately pbe ractised. Or they can be practised in conjunction with vipassanaa. Anyway when all 40 kamma.t.thaana have been touched they all will be useful at some stage. Vipassanaa have been actually discussed under 'satipa.t.thaana' when we discussed on 'satipa.t.thaana' of Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma. The only thing left is vipassanaa ~naa.na. Some count as 10 vipassanaa naana, some count as 16 and some even as 18 vipassanaa naana. Actually there are 10 vipassanaa naana. At the end of vipassanaa naana there arise magga naana and this is followed by phala naana. After four times cleansing there left no defilements. As there are thick scales of defilements through out the samsaraa ther cleansing has to be done for four times. Magga-viithi, phala-viithi have also been discussed in earlier posts. Phala-samaapatti, nirodha-samaapatti have also been discussed. May you all benefit from Dhamma Threads. This might well be the last post. If not the intended post number is (5000) and time and again they will appear here and there. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56194 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:02pm Subject: Bye Bye htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, DHAMMA IS FOREVER Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. Meeting is leaving soon. HTOO NAING (28.02.06) 56195 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 848 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii As soon as the first jhaana has been attained there arises retrospective procession of consciousness or 'paccavekkhana viithi vaara'. This first jhaana is attained through pathavii kasi.na. Because of this retrospection the weakness of jhaana itself is found. These weakness can be strengthened by the following exercises. They are 1. aavajjana vasii (mastery in adverting) 2. samaapajjana vasii(master in attaining) 3. adhi.t.thaana vasii(mastery in predetermination) 4. vu.t.thaana vasii(mastery in emerging) 5. paccavekkha.na vasii(mastery in retrospecting/scrutizing) Aavajjana means 'turn the mind to' 'turn the attention to' 'pay attention to'. Samaapajjana means 'entering up on' 'passing through' 'reach' 'attain' 'get to'. Adhi.t.thaana means 'decide' 'determine' 'will'. Vu.t.thaana means 'rising out' 'rousing' 'turn away from' 'emerging'. Paccavekkhana means 'review' 'reflect' 'consider' 'look at' 'retrospect' 'contemplation'. Vasii means 'habit' 'having become a master'. So the above five vasii or mastery are for exercising of 1st jhaana so that the first jhaana becomes much more powerful in terms of entering, staying in, emerging and so on. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56196 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:06pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 849 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii C|P.B.B.B.B..B.B........B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.B.C|P C = cuti citta = life-ceasing-consciousness P = pa.tisandhi citta = life-starting-consciousness (linking) B = bhavanga citta = life-continuing-consciousness All these are cittas and they have to depend on vatthu which are ruupa or materials. This is just a hypothetical life and there is no such life. Because there is no consciousness that take the current snese-door objects. So a typical life will like this ... C|P.B.B.B......M.J.J.J.J.J.J.J.D.D.B.B.B......B.B M = manodvaravajjana citta = mind-door-adverting consciousness J = javana citta = mental-impulsive consciousness D = taDaaramma.na citta = retention consciousness These 7 cittas are always lobha muula cittas. They are very first javana cittas in a life and they are always lobha cittas. This is true even in case of Bodhisattas. When the flow of consciousness is randomly running there arises 1st jhaana cittas and at the end of some 1st jhaana citta there follow bhavanga cittas. BBBMJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBBB This is immediately followed by paccavekkhana viithi vaara or 'retrospecting procession of consciousness. The more frequently jhaana is entered the more likely that jhaana factors are checked and seen their weakness. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56197 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:05pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) buddhistmedi... Hi, Han and Sarah - It is very good that you two have discussed ditthi (wrong views) and hindrances. >Han : > ... I think ditthi is an ideal ingredient for the hindrances. >Sarah (#56160): >Yes, I agree and I think it's implied. Another suggestion I have is that sometimes the first 5 hindrances (without ignorance) only are given, especially I think in the context of samatha and jhana development. These have to be clearly seen and are suppressed by appropriate conditions. Tep: I would like to make a comment, after giving the definitions of ignorance and taints as follows: "And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance; with the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration." "And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration." [MN 9, translated by Nanamoli & Bodhi] Tep: In MN 9 above ignorance is defined as "not knowing the four noble truths". It also states: "with the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints". We know that 'taint' means asava or kilesa [Asava = fermentations, effluents, outflows, taints. Kilesa = defilements : lobha, dosa, moha]. So I think the five hindrances [sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt] are also taints. If this understanding is correct, then when any hindrance arises there also arises ignorance. And since ditthi is a taint(kilesa), ignorance also closely follows a ditthi. Please correct me if there are errors. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Han, > > You raise good points: > > --- han tun wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > In your presentation of Different Groups of > > Defilements Part 3, I have noted the following > > sentence. > > (snipped) > 56198 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) hantun1 Dear Tep, The relationship between avijjaa and aasava are rather complicated. In A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Mahathera Narada and Bhikkhu Bodhi, on page 302, it was written as follows: Quote [In the Sammaaditthi Sutta the Venerable Sariputta is asked to explain the cause of ignorance and he replies that ignorance arises from the taints (aasava-samudayaaa avijjaa-samudayo). When he is asked to state the cause of the taints, he replies that the taints arise from ignorance (avijjaa-samudayaa aasava-samudayo).] End Quote. So you see that aasava and avijjaa are mutually conditioning. Now, what is aasava? In the same book on page 265, it was written: Quote [The word aasava means literally that which flows out. In the Pali language the word denotes both pus oozing from an abscess and intoxicants which have been fermented for a long time. The defilements classified as taints are called aasavas because they are similar to oozing pus and to fermented intoxicants. The Commentaries state that the aasavas are so called because they flow right up to the topmost plane of existence or because they flow up to change-of-lineage (gotrabhuu). Of the four taints, the taint of sensual desire (kaamaasava) and the taint of (attachment to) existence (bhavaasava) are both modes of the cetasika greed (lobha), directed in the one case to sense pleasure, in the other to continued existence. The taint of wrong view (ditthaasava) is identified as the cetasika wrong view (ditthi) and the taint of ignorance (avijjaasava) as the cetasika delusion (moha).] End Quote. Please note that the aasavas are powerful and potent enough to flow right up to the topmost plane of existence, and to the change-of-lineage (gotrabhuu). Now, what are niivaranas? They are “hindrances” (not translated as “taints” in this book). In Abhidhamma classification there are six niivaranas including avijjaaniivarana. But in sutta classification there are only five niivaranas without avijjaanivarana. One must not use the English word “taints” loosely to mean any kilesa. It is better to go by Pali words. In Pali words, aasava and avijjaa are very much different from niivaranas in terms of their scope, potency and magnitude. If you go by sutta classification of five niivaranas, the cetasikas are lobha, dosa, thina, middha, uddhacca, kukkucca, and vicikicchaa. None of these are powerful and potent enough to flow right up to the topmost plane of existence, and to the change-of-lineage (gotrabhuu). None of these are powerful and potent enough to condition the arising of avijjaa or aasava. Even with the lobha cetasika, I have never come across “lobhasamudayaa avijjaasamudayo” or “lobhasamudaya aasavasamudayo”. Therefore your understanding that “when any hindrance arises there also arises ignorance, and since ditthi is a taint (kilesa), ignorance also closely follows a ditthi” has flaws. Well, that is my comments. I do not know what Sarah has to say. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Han and Sarah - > > It is very good that you two have discussed ditthi > (wrong views) and > hindrances. 56199 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hello gunasaro@... Dear Sarah: Thanks for Your kind response & support... The Abhidhamma Course is taking place in Bogor, a city nearby Jakarta [included in The Greater Jakarta, 1-1½ hrs from Jakarta by car]. We're staying in Jakarta & now the class's discussing about RUPA [material] & 31 realms. Our new group from Jakarta has 9 people, started from early this year. So, actually we inserted in the middle of the intermediate subject. But it's fine; all of us feel very convenience with the tutoring methods from Mr. Selamat. There're an elder couple who had no excellence in Indonesian, but still can follow the course very well. Exactly last week, we brought 4 new pupils [2 were elders]. Actually we can bring many more, but the class already full. So, it'll be better for us start all over from the beginning in Jakarta [probably next April]. I have no idea of why others used to say that it's hard to convince ones to learn Abhidhamma. But in our new group, we can easily recruit newcomers; of course by sharing from what exactly we're got from the course. For other instance: last night I accompanied my brother to a mobile-phone outlet. I saw some Buddhism images inside the shop & after a few chitchat, I knew that he's a Theravada Buddhist. It only took my ± 20 minutes to make sure that he'd attend the Abhidhamma Course in Bogor... Even a friend of mine [non-Buddhist], last week also recruited a Buddhist to join the course. So, if I may say: the key point is depending on the: ~the effort to share this amazing happiness [Abhidhamma] to others, sincerely; ~teaching methods &; ~the tutor's attitudes... Great thanks to Mr. Selamat who has been "fighting" for the existing of the activities, years. For my friends & me, it's a great opportunity & responsible as well [as the followers of Lord Buddha] to let others know about Abhidhamma [Dhamma in its most universal form]... Thanking so much for the kind supports. Sukhi Hotu, Gunasaro