56201 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > Meeting is leaving soon. > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) .... S: Thank you for your good verse and for all your other messages, letters and threads here to date. As I mentioned recently, I always find it a real joy to discuss dhamma with you and consider you a very good friend in Dhamma. I have a learnt a lot from you. I understand you have very good reasons for taking your leave for now. I’d like to wish you and those who are dear to you well. Please pop in anytime you have an opportunity to do so, to keep in touch with us all here. “Appamaado amatapada”m Pamaado maccuno pada”m Appamattaa na miiyanti Ye pamattaa yathaa mataa.” “Heedfulness is the path to the deathless, heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful do not die; The heedless are like unto the dead.” (Dhp 21) Metta and best wishes always, Sarah p.s Jon also sends his best wishes and appreciation ======== 56202 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:10pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 386- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] In the Kindred Sayings (II, Niddåna-vagga, Chapter XVII, Kindred Sayings on Gain and Favours) we read in forty three suttas that the Buddha reminded the monks of the danger of attachment to gains, favours and flattery. We read for example in the first sutta of this section (§1, Dire) that the Buddha said to the monks: * "Dire, monks, are gains, favours and flattery, a bitter, harsh obstacle in the way of arriving at uttermost safety. Wherefore, monks, thus should you train yourselves:- “When gains, favour and flattery come to us, we will put them aside, nor when they come shall they take lasting hold on our hearts.”" * Why did the Buddha stress so repeatedly the danger of attachment to gains, favours and flattery? Because our happiness seems to depend entirely on the getting of the pleasant “worldly conditions”. Don’t they play an all-important role in our life? We want to be treated well by others, we consider ourselves very important and we forget that gain, loss, honour and dishonour are dependant on conditions, that they are beyond control. We cannot exert control over what will happen next: gain or loss, honour or dishonour. The Buddha explained that desire is the root of sorrow, but we may not fully understand this truth. Only right understanding which has been developed can see the truth of the Buddha’s words. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56203 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:26pm Subject: Even is Equanimity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Balanced Equanimity is the last & Tenth Mental Perfection: Equanimity characteristically induces & promotes a quite impartial neutrality... It's function is just to look upon things with an even unreactive indifference! It's manifestation is the gradual stilling of both any attraction & any repulsion.. It's proximate cause is seeing, that all beings inherit the results of their actions. It's effect is utter purification & perfection of all other good mental qualities, by ending both discontent & delight, thereby providing the necessary equal calm required for their complete assessment, development & fulfilment. Equanimity means Unaffectable.. Equanimity means Unprovokable.. Equanimity means Undisturbable.. Equanimity means Unexcitable.. Equanimity means Imperturbable.. Equanimity means Disengaged.. Equanimity means Disentangled.. Equanimity means Detached.. Equanimity means Immovable.. Equanimity means Unbeatable.. Equanimity means Untemptable.. Equanimity means Wholly Immune.. Equanimity means Indifferent.. Equanimity means Impartial.. Equanimity means Unbiased.. Equanimity means Disinterested.. Equanimity means Balanced.. Even like a smiling mountain! Cool Calm is the ultimate Balm! The Fourfold Equanimity (Upekkha): If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, Material & Immaterial things, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquillity; So is the Equanimity; of one freed by the Insight of right Knowledge... Dhammapada 96 Although a man is richly dressed and adorned, if he is in peace, at ease, in equanimity, calmed, composed, controlled, celibate and harmless towards all beings, then verily he is a Holy One, a recluse, a bhikkhu, a sage ... Dhammapada 142 Equanimity towards one's own internal mental states - that is indeed a link to Enlightenment. Equanimity regarding external phenomena & conditions - that is indeed also a link to Enlightenment. Samyutta Nikaya V Bojjhanga-samyutta. Such noble friend finally develops the link to awakening that is Equanimity during awareness of in-&-out breathing, which protect against damaging mental states, tends to detachment, to ceasing, tends to release & culminates in complete self-surrender... If, friends, awareness of in-&-out breathing, is so cultivated and so made much of, it is indeed of great fruit, of great advantage! One whose awareness of breathing in-&-out is perfected, well developed, and gradually brought to refined growth thus, according to the teaching of the Buddha, such one illuminates the entire world, just like the full moon freed from clouds. Samyutta Nikaya V Anapana-samyutta. The Blessed One said: Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a Noble One is there the unsurpassable development of the senses? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, or what is disagreeable, or what is both agreeable & disagreeable. He recognizes that: This agreeable thing has arisen in me, or this disagreeable thing... or this both agreeable & disagreeable thing, has arisen in me: And that is constructed, conditioned, coarse & dependently co-arisen! But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, namely even & equal equanimity! Instantly, that arisen agreeable or disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes it's calm stance! Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or when open, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, equanimity make whatever arisen agreeable thing... or disagreeable thing... or both agreeable & disagreeable thing cease right there, and equanimity takes it's even stance! In the discipline of The Noble One, this is called the unsurpassable development of the senses with regard to visible forms cognizable by the eye. Similar is the supreme development of the other senses. MN 152 With the fading of rapturous joy, he remains in equanimity, aware & alert, still physically sensitive to bodily pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware Equanimity, one abides in pleasure...' With the stilling of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & frustration, he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: sole awareness purified by equanimity, - neither pleasure nor pain - This is called right concentration... The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of all regrets, just this pure equanimity being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release the breakthrough from ignorance. Sutta Nipata V 13: Udaya's Questions Equanimity is 'Tatra-majjhattata', which designates the evenly balanced keeping to the moderate middle of all things. It has as characteristic, that it effects the balance of consciousness and mental properties as a single function of single taste, which prevents both overt excessiveness and any lack or insufficiency. Equanimity thereby puts an end to biased partiality by manifesting moderation well within range of the properly reasoned midway. Visuddhimagga XIV The Buddha once explained: I would make my bed in a charnel ground, with a skeleton for my pillow.. And cowherd boys came up and spat on me, urinated on me, threw dirt at me, and poked sticks into my ears! While others, exultant & thrilled brought me offerings of food, caskets of perfume & incense and garlands of flowers! Yet I do not recall, that I ever showed any partiality towards any of them... I was the same to them all! Neither arousing any fondness nor any aversion! This was my ultimate perfection of equanimity... MN 12 Lomahamsanapariyaya The Hair-raising Presentation Cariyapitaka III 15 __________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 56204 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) sarahprocter... Dear Han & Tep, --- han tun wrote: > Therefore your understanding that “when any hindrance > arises there also arises ignorance, and since ditthi > is a taint (kilesa), ignorance also closely follows a > ditthi” has flaws. > > Well, that is my comments. I do not know what Sarah > has to say. .... S: I think you have both made many excellent comments and as usual, Tep added some very helpful textual quotes. I think that no matter how the defilements (kilesa) are listed or categorised, they refer to the same lobha, dosa and moha. As Tep writes here, 'when any hindrance arises there also arises ignorance'. We know that ignorance always accompanies any akusala of any kind. It is blind at that moment to the harm of akusala. It also accompanies moments of ditthi (wrong view). Moha is ignorant at that moment of the truth and ditthi has wrong view about it. Thanks again for your detailed input which I plan to print out and read more carefully later. It's good to see you around again, Tep, with your helpful sutta quotes and considered comments. Han, I'm glad you have a copy of 'Survey' and I'm sure everyone here will be interested to hear about your discussions with A.Sujin on Saturday. I know she'll be very glad to meet you too. Metta, Sarah ======= 56205 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > Meeting is leaving soon. > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) .... > S: Thank you for your good verse and for all your other messages, letters and threads here to date. As I mentioned recently, I always find it a real joy to discuss dhamma with you and ... Please pop in anytime you have an opportunity to do so, to keep in touch with us all here. "Appamaado amatapada"m Pamaado maccuno pada"m Appamattaa na miiyanti Ye pamattaa yathaa mataa." "Heedfulness is the path to the deathless, heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful do not die; The heedless are like unto the dead." (Dhp 21) Metta and best wishes always, Sarah p.s Jon also sends his best wishes and appreciation ======== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Jon, Thanks for your kind words and Dhp 21. This verse of Dhp 21 reminds me of Mahaajanakka and his heedfulness. With respect, Htoo Naing 56206 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 0:39am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, Han and Sarah - It is very good that you two have discussed ditthi (wrong views) and hindrances. >Han : > ... I think ditthi is an ideal ingredient for the hindrances. >Sarah (#56160): >Yes, I agree and I think it's implied. Another suggestion I have is that sometimes the first 5 hindrances (without ignorance) only are given, especially I think in the context of samatha and jhana development. These have to be clearly seen and are suppressed by appropriate conditions. Tep: I would like to make a comment, after giving the definitions of ignorance and taints as follows: "And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance; with the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration." "And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration." [MN 9, translated by Nanamoli & Bodhi] Tep: In MN 9 above ignorance is defined as "not knowing the four noble truths". It also states: "with the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints". We know that 'taint' means asava or kilesa [Asava = fermentations, effluents, outflows, taints. Kilesa = defilements : lobha, dosa, moha]. So I think the five hindrances [sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt] are also taints. If this understanding is correct, then when any hindrance arises there also arises ignorance. And since ditthi is a taint(kilesa), ignorance also closely follows a ditthi. Please correct me if there are errors. Respectfully, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Han and Sarah, Your reply to Han and Sarah discussion is very nice. I did not find any flaw. Ignorance is always there after any of hindrances. Actually ignorance is the king of all akusala and it handles all the affairs of hindrances. There are 5 hindrances according to suttas. But suttas do not say ignorance is a hindrance. In case of ditthi and and ignorance with respect to hindrances, there is no wrong-view or ditthi when ill-will (byaapaada niivara.na) arises. This is vice versa. When sensuous thinking happens there is no ill-will. But there may or may not be wrong-view at the exact time when sensuous thinking happens. Even though wrong-view is most likely dhamma it does not always follow akusala dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 56207 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 0:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Han & Tep, Han, I'm glad you have a copy of 'Survey' and I'm sure everyone here will be interested to hear about your discussions with A.Sujin on Saturday. I know she'll be very glad to meet you too. Metta, Sarah ======= --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Han, Nice meeting. Could you please post the discussions after meeting? If you still have a copy of my 14 questions (by whom never answered) please ask A Sujin what she would answer. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 56208 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner, urgent for Htoo hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing, I do not have your 14 questions any more. Could you kindly send them to me please? With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Han, > > If you still have a copy of my 14 questions (by whom > never answered) > please ask A Sujin what she would answer. > > With deepest respect, > > Htoo Naing > 56209 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. jonoabb Hi TG TGrand458@... wrote: >But I >would see awareness of a single moment of consciousness as something >that is the beyond even the level of knowledge required for >enlightenment; the sort of thing known only by Buddhas or the great >arahants. > >Jon > > > > >Hi Jon > >As opposed to the feeble minded arahats? ;-) > >TG > > Not all arahants are equal ;-)) There are arahants and there are great arahants. They have all penetrated the same truths, but do so with different levels of accumulated understanding of dhammas (as I understand it). Jon 56210 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Thanks for your kind words and Dhp 21. This verse of Dhp 21 reminds > me of Mahaajanakka and his heedfulness. ... S: Please would you say more about Mahaajanakka and what you are reminded of about him. It's not ringing any bells for me. Metta, Sarah p.s Perhpas I misunderstood your 'bye bye' as I see you're still posting as usual:-). ============= 56211 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah and Han, and, of course, Htoo - In a message dated 3/1/06 12:34:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Dear Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > >Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > >DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > > >Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > >We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > >We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > >Meeting is leaving soon. > > > >HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > .... > S: Thank you for your good verse and for all your other messages, letters > and threads here to date. As I mentioned recently, I always find it a real > joy to discuss dhamma with you and consider you a very good friend in > Dhamma. I have a learnt a lot from you. > > I understand you have very good reasons for taking your leave for now. I’d > like to wish you and those who are dear to you well. Please pop in anytime > you have an opportunity to do so, to keep in touch with us all here. ======================== Except for the post's title, which did make me wonder, I had assumed that this poem: ____________________ DHAMMA IS FOREVER Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. Meeting is leaving soon. HTOO NAING (28.02.06) ------------------------------------ was simply a lovely general commentary on the impermanence of persons indicating that deaths occur, endings occur, and that meetings lead to leavings. But based on what you write here, Sarah, I now assume that Htoo has been in touch with you and has indicated that he will be leaving this list and apparently lots of other lists. If this is so, Htoo, I will miss having you "around", and I wish you ALL the best in whatever it is that you will be doing. Please do keep in touch. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 56212 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 5:52am Subject: Re: Bye Bye scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > Meeting is leaving soon. > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > Dear Htoo, If this is goodbye, thank you for all of the posts you have been making while I have been involved with the DSG. I was only able to interact with you briefly but learned therefrom; I read much more than I was capable of responding to with any clarity. I hope you can be well! Sincerely, Scott. 56213 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) hantun1 Dear Tep, Sarah, and U Htoo Naing, I will not argue against your views about avijjaa, aasava, and niivarana on “general terms”. But in this particular context of MN 9, I wish to review Tep’s comments again. Tep: In MN 9 above ignorance is defined as "not knowing the four noble truths". It also states: "with the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints". We know that 'taint' means asava or kilesa [Asava = fermentations, effluents, outflows, taints. Kilesa = defilements : lobha, dosa, moha]. So I think the five hindrances [sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt] are also taints. -------------------- Han: If you insert Pali words (taken from the original Pali text of the sutta) in the passage that Tep has quoted, "with the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance, and with the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints" will become “with the arising of the aasava there is the arising of avijjaa, and with the cessation of avijjaa there is the cessation of the aasava". This is a true fact and there is no question about it. But in Tep’s comments “so I think the five hindrances [sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt] are also taints”, I have nothing to say if “taints” here mean any other kilesas. But if the “taints” here mean aasavas then it is incorrect, because niivaranas and aasavas are not the same. That was why I said not to use the English word “taints” loosely and that I would rather go by Pali words. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun 56214 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying moments, sense of urgency matheesha333 Hi Nina, Han tun, Nina:> Without this understanding we may reflect on death our > whole life, but there will not be any fruit. We learn > that there is birth and death at each moment, namely > the arising and falling away of citta. Through the > development of the Path we can directly understand > momentary birth and death. This is different from > thinking about death in conventional sense. M: Yes knowing theoretically, repeating it many many times is not enough. One must be able to see it directly, experience it. Develop the path, bhaavana, cultivate qualities of the mind, use chanda appropriately so that this is possible. H: The Buddha also said that when one often reflects in > this way, the [factors of the] path take birth (maggo > sanjaayati). He/she sticks with that path, develops > it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, > develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are > abandoned, the obsessions destroyed. M: This 'maggo' is not magga citta. Because he goes on to cultivate it more and more. If it were magga citta it would immediately be followed by phala citta. Maybe it is better understood as the noble eightfold path, because there is something to cultivate there, develop there. Then the fetters and obsessions would be abandoned. This contemplation is at the basic level of giving rise to the understanding that there is a problem. If the problem is seen well enough, there is seeking of a solution. This is the development of the noble eightfold path, they way to the ending of that very suffering. metta Matheesha 56215 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 8:20am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) matheesha333 Hi my friend Tep, > Tep: I hope I know how to encourage you to continue to post about your > jhana experiences. Only time will tell skeptics that you have been right > from the beginning. M: ..or that i have been wrong lol!! > > >Matheesha: > > >"In the second jhaana discursive thinking shuts down. Piti and sukha > are probably at their highest here. > > >"When someone comes out of jhana the rapture and samadhi (if it > was strong) can carry on into their waking consciousness as well. > > Tep: Very good! I would appreciate your elaboration on the above two > points. > > Questions for Point #1 : Supposed I am in the 1st jhana this moment. > How does my thinking (vitakka & vicara) "shut down" (by what action, > condition) so that the 2nd jhana may arise? I want to know how > you "drive" from the 1st to the 2nd level, using determination (as you > stated in your previous post). How does determination shut down > thinking? M: Tep, if you have an intention to get into a pool and if you carry that out, you will get wet. Similary if you have an intention to get into the 2nd jhana and it happens, it is the quality of the second jhana that there is no thought. Determination alone can be used to move from one to the next if there is control over the jhanas. 'Driving' from the first jhana to the next is usually by more concentration (this was also the same thing you got there in the first place). Concentrating develops samadhi. The deeper the samadhi, the deeper the one-pointedness, it seems to 'tolerate' only certain types of agitations of the mind. vitakka and vichara are tolerated in the first jhana, but in the second they are ejected and only piti suka is tolerated. ALso note that the more gross agitations of the five hindrances are left behind. There is mention in the suttas of someone thinking 'this vitakka vicara is an agitation, what if I abide without it (or words to that effect). This another way of doing it, but one must have trained well in adhi-citta to do such things. For us, if concentration can get us into a higher jhana it is enough. > Question for Point #2 : According to the suttas (plus my interpretation), > even the 3rd jhana can be maintained in a meditator's waking > moments ("abiding", viharati) as well. Is my understanding (of the > suttas, e.g. DN22) correct? > > DN 22: With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & > alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third > jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he > has a pleasurable abiding.' [end of excerpt] M: One is either in a jhana or not. It is possible to 'abide' in a jhana for long periods of time if one is trained in that. Ven. Sariputta used to abide in one meditative state in the morning and another in the evening. I for one cannot even move a muscle in the second jhana. So any idea of walking around in a jhana doesnt seem applicable. I think it is important to note that just because there is flour, eggs, sugar etc this does not automatically make it a cake. IT must all be processed and baked together for a good period of time. It it is possible to have all the factors of a jhaana outside of jhana. But if the 5 hindrences are still arising, then it is not a jhana. If there is no adequate samadhi it is not a jhana. It might be better to think of jhana as a state where many factors are absent (hence deep calm), rather than a state where something is present. metta Matheesha 56216 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 8:53am Subject: Re: Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > > Meeting is leaving soon. > > > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > > > Dear Htoo, > > If this is goodbye, thank you for all of the posts you have been > making while I have been involved with the DSG. I was only able to > interact with you briefly but learned therefrom; I read much more than > I was capable of responding to with any clarity. I hope you can be well! > > Sincerely, > > Scott. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Scott, Thank you very much for your kind words. May Dhamma protect us? With Metta, Htoo Naing 56217 From: "Pablo" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:08am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) cerini_pablo > > Tep: I hope I know how to encourage you to continue to post about > your > > jhana experiences. Only time will tell skeptics that you have been > right > > from the beginning. > > Matheesha: ..or that i have been wrong lol!! I'd like to thank Matheesha for his narration of his first person experience in jhanas. I think what he wrote is simply amazing. I never thought there were living people who attain jhanas. I know my enthusiastic interest in jhanas may seem naive, in fact I'm a a newbie :) Anyway, what Matheesha wrote actually helped to strenghten my faith ,or better my trust, in the whole dhamma. Actually some people need to see what it can be really achieved, most of all, even if this can sound commonplace, if you have been soaked with western arrogant scientism by school and family since your childhood. Thank you again. Cerini Pablo 56218 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Thanks for your kind words and Dhp 21. This verse of Dhp 21 reminds > > me of Mahaajanakka and his heedfulness. > ... > S: Please would you say more about Mahaajanakka and what you are reminded > of about him. It's not ringing any bells for me. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Perhpas I misunderstood your 'bye bye' as I see you're still posting > as usual:-). > ============= --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, I am leaving. Regarding Mahaajanakka it is one of 10 life stories of Bodhisatta. These 10 lives are 1. Temiya 2. Janakka 3. Suva.n.nasaama 4. Nemi 5. Mahosadhaa 6. Bhuuridatta 7. Candasuuriya 8. Naarada 9. Vidhuura 10.Vassantaraa There is a Myanmar joke. There was a religionistic man. He learned a lot and he became so confident that he decided to become a sammaasambuddha. So he deserted everything and took a robe and enter the forest. There he practised to become a sammaasambuddha. Once a couple of drunkards came near his hut and they were singing aloud and the song is like this ... 'Matured are ten, preparing 500, 80,000 coming sambuddhas, after are two of us Then follows Khingyipauk....' Then the man 'Khingyipauk' pondered that.. 'There are 10 Bodhisattas who are very matured (like above 10), and after these 10 there are 500 Bodhisattas. Still there will be 80,000 sammaasambuddhas coming. Oh! many buddhas. After these Buddhas these two drunkards will become sammaasambuddhas. Then it will be my turn. Why should I still be living in the forest while my 2 elder brothers (Bodhisattas) are still drinking. I will not become a sammaasambuddha in this life.' Then Khingyipauk disrobed himself and he lives on making mats (which is funny job anyway in Myanmar because there is no need for any capital and no need for special training to make mats.) If Mahaajanakka did not swim he would have sunk in the ocean. But he heedfully swam and lived a bit longer. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am leaving. But I will leave some Dhamma Threads at a site. 56219 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah and Han, and, of course, Htoo - DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > Meeting is leaving soon. > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > ------------------------------------ > was simply a lovely general commentary on the impermanence of persons > indicating that deaths occur, endings occur, and that meetings lead to leavings. But > based on what you write here, Sarah, I now assume that Htoo has been in touch > with you and has indicated that he will be leaving this list and apparently > lots of other lists. If this is so, Htoo, I will miss having you "around", and I > wish you ALL the best in whatever it is that you will be doing. Please do > keep in touch. > > With metta, > Howard -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Thank you very much for your kind words. I will be posting if my Gmail works. It is htoo.naing@... . With respect, Htoo Naing 56220 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, Sarah, and U Htoo Naing, Dear Han, Tep and all, This is the area where once I talked about. I agree with U Han Tun. But we have to weigh against readers who know little Paa.li and readers who want to know what The Buddha actually say. In one of Dhamma Thread I presented that niivarana akusalas arise when doing meditation. But they are not as strong as upadaana. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 56221 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:23am Subject: Dhamma Thresad ( 850 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii After aquisition of the first jhaana the practitioner has to practise his jhaana to become proficient in his jhaana. To do this first he has to enter the first jhaana. At the exit he does the retrospective contemplation on his finished jhaana which has just stopped before arising of restrospective mind. This retrospective mind check all the jhaana factors. Among five jhaana factors ekaggataa or samaadhi or one-pointedness is powerful and has full strength to fight against the opponent. So it is not that weak. Sukha calms down the mind and tranquilize all other jhaana factors and other cetasikas as well as citta. Sukha is also powerful. Piiti again is also strong and this may even lift the whole body even without abhinnaa power. Vicaara or reviewing or sustained application is also a force. It lifts the mind to be stuck in the object and makes citta review the object. Vitakka is also a powerful, strong force that actually transports the citta to be in the right place of what he (vitakka) thinks. Without vitakka there will not be 1st jhaana, no doubt. But there are cases that there is no vitakka at all but citta is working as jhaana citta. This happens and this can happen because 'to depart kaama world or sensuous world' vitakka is necessary while in ruupa world or ruupa loka 'vitakka is no more the necessary component'. Only first jhaana requires vitakka and this is because to kick away kaama or sensuous things. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56222 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:26am Subject: Dhamma Thresad ( 851 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii After repeated examination' vitakka or initial-application is found to be the weakest jhaana factors. Because vitakka can draw the mind from jhaana object and push the mind on to sensuous thinking and drop back to kaama world or sensuous world. The practitioner enters the first jhaana, stays there, and emerges from it and does retrospection and vitakka is repeatedly examined and the weakness, flaws, the potential dangers of vitakka come to the mind vividly. Because of this he becomes less and less attached to vitakka. Here the word 'attached' is not for lobha cetasika and 'it' is just used as a word to convey the necessary information and understanding to readers. The practitioner become less attached and he dispassionates on vitakka. This early thought is like pre-preparatory mind. That is preparation for parikamma bhaavanaa for 2nd ruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56223 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 852 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' When in 1st jhaana the citta is 'ruupavacara-ruupakusala-1st-ruupa- jhaana-citta' or 'ruupaavacara-ruupakusala-pathamajjhaana-citta'. This term already explains what first jhaana is. The plane is citta is totally different from ours. That is it is no more kaama citta or sensuous consciousness. It is pure and serene. It is ruupaavacara. This is 'such cittas arise frequently in ruupa bhuumi or in the plane of fine material beings'. Ruupakusala means 'ruupa-sankhaara' creating ruupa-kamma, which again would give rise to ruupa-vipaaka-cittas in respective ruupa bhuumi as bhavanga citta or cuti citta. For pa.tisandhi citta ruupakusala have to arise as mara.naasanna javana or death-frequenting consciousness. This 1st ruupa-jhaana takes the object 'pa.tibhaaga nimitta'. This is counter image of mental image, which again is the exact copy of visual image. Visual image again is also a pannatti or concepts, which arise from actual visual object but this has to happen after repeated seeing on different visual objects composed in so called the disc of earth. So when in 1st jhaana, the citta is 1st ruupa-kusala citta and the object is pa.tobhaaga nimitta. But as soon as citta moves to retrospection that citta is no more ruupavacara-rupakusala citta. But it still maintain the purity in 1st jhaana citta. This purity also include 'freeing of wrong-view'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56224 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 11:19am Subject: 200 Paa.li Words htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Just listing of dhammas that should be studied well. 1. Buddha (Excellent knower) 2. Dhamma (dhamma) 3. Sangha (coming together of knowers) 4. citta (consciousness) 5. cetasika(mental factor) 6. ruupa (material phenomena) 7. nibbana(unconditioned dhamma of peace) 8. naama (non-material phenomena) 9. mano (mind or consciousness) 10.aaramma.na (the aaram of mano or the pasture of mind) 11. pannatti (concepts, names) 12. kaama (sensuous things) 13. ruupa (fine material) 14. aruupa(non-material) 15. loka (world) 16. lokuttaraa (beyond worlds/supramundane) 17. magga (path) 18. phala (fruit) 19. ~naa.na (knowledge) 20. akusala (unwholesome) 21. kusala (wholesome) 22. abyaakata (done dhamma that are not kusala nor akusala) 23. vipaaka (result) 24. vedana (feeling) 25. hetu (root) 26. kicca (function) 27. .thaana (place) 28. vatthu (base) 29. dvaara (door) 30. vi~n~naa.na (consciousness) 31. viithi (procession) 32. pa.tisandhi (linking) 33. bhavanga (limbs of life) 34. cuti (moving away from a state of living / ceasing or death) 35. pavatti (course of life) 36. cakkhu (eye) 37. sota (ear) 38. ghaana(nose) 39. jivhaa(tongue) 40. kaaya (body) this is physical body and include eye, ear, nose etc 41. ruupa (forms as visual object) 42. sadda (sound) 43. gandha(smell) 44. rasa (taste) 45. photthabba (touch) 46. khandhaa (aggregate) 47. aayatana (sense-base) 48. dhaatu (element) 49. saccaa (truth) 50. sa`nkhaara (conditioned dhamma) 51. paticcasamuppaada (Dependent Origination) 52. pa.t.thaana (conditions) 53. kamma (seed) 54. kamma.t.thaana (object of meditation) 55. samatha (tranquility) 56. vipassanaa (insight) 57. bhaavanaa (cultivation) 58. nimitta (sign) 59. parikamma (preparatory) 60. upacaara (proximate/neighbourhood) 61. appanaa (absorption) 62. jhaana (stillness/steadfast stickiness at object) 63. carita (habit) 64. anicca (impermanance) 65. dukkha (suffering/unsatisfactoriness) 66. anatta (selflessness, non-self) 67. asubha (non-beautiful) 67. kiriyaa (inoperational, functional) 68. sobhana (beautiful) 69. asobhana(non-beautiful) 70. sotapatti (stream-entering) 71. sakadaagaami(once-returner) 72. anaagaami (non-returner) 73. arahatta (worthy-one who is pure saint) 74. aakaasa (space) 75. ananta (endless, many-much, limitless) 76. aakinca(nothing) 77. vitakka (initial-application) 78. vicaara (sustained-application) 79. piiti (joy/rapture) 80. sukha (tranquility-happy feeling) 81. ekaggataa (one-pointedness) 82. pathama (first) 83. dutiya (second) 84. tatiya (third) 85. catuttha (fourth) 86. pa~ncama (fifth) 87. mahaa (great) 88. abhidhamma (great dhamma/ higher dhamma) 89. attha (essence, meaning) 90. sangaha (coming together, combination, companion) 91. phassa (contact) 92. cetanaa(volition) 93. sa~n~naa(perception) 94. jiivitindriya (mental-life-faculty) 95. manasikaara (attention) 96. viiriya (effort) 97. adhimokkha (determination) 98. chanda (wish, will) 99. moha (ignorance) 100.avijjaa (ignorance) 101. ahirika (shamelessness) 102. anottappa(fearlessness) 103. uddhacca (wandering, upset, restless) 104. lobha (attachment) 105. tanhaa (craving) 106. maana (conceit) 107. di.t.thi (wrong view) 108. dosa (aversion, hatred, anger) 109. issaa(jealousy) 110. macchariya(stinginess;unwilling to have wishing others goodness) 111. kukkucca (worry) 112. thina (sloth) 113. middha(torpor) 114. viicikicchaa (doubt) 115. saddhaa (confidence/faith) 116. sati (mindfulness, non-forgetfulness, remembrance) 117. hiiri (moral shame) 118. ottappa(moral fear) 119. alobha (non-attachment) 120. adosa (non-aversion/ may be said as 'metta') 121. tatramajjhattataa (balance) 122. passaddhi (tranquility-coolness) 123. lahutaa (lightness) 124. mudutaa (mouldability, flexibility) 125. kamma~n~nataa (workability) 126. pagu~n~nataa (proficiency) 127. ujukataa (rectitude, uprightness) 128. karu.naa (compassion) 129. muditaa (sympathetic joy, altruistic joy) 130. pa~n~naa (wisdom) 131. somanassa (happy) 132. domanassa (unhappy) 133. sukha (physical easeness) 134. asa`nkhaarika (not prompted) 135. sasankhaarika (prompted) 136. satta (being) 137. puggala (individual) 138. ahetuka (rootless) 139. sugati (happy destination) 140. duggati (unhappy destination) 141. dvihetuka (double rooted, having two roots) 142. tihetuka (triple rooted, having three roots) 143. manussa (human being) 144. deva (celestiel beings such as 'deva deva' or 'brahma deva') 145. brahmaa (fine material beings) 146. asannasatta (non-percipient being) 147. suddha-aavaasa (suddhaavaasa- pure abode) 148. niriya (hell) 149. tiracchaana (animal_ti-chanda or 3 wishes of sex,sleep,food) 150. peta (ghost or hungry ghost) 151. asuura kaaya (demon) 152. aavajjana (adverting, contemplating, turn attention to) 153. dassana (seeing) 154. savana (hearing) 155. ghaayana(smelling) 156. sayana (tasting) 157. phusana (touching) 158. sampa.ticchana (receiving) 159. santiira.na (investigating) 160. vutthapana (determining) 161. javana (impulsive) 162. tadaaramma.na (retaining) 163. niyaama (law) 164. biija (gene, genetics) 165. utu (temperature) 166. abi~n~naa (power, jhaana power) 167. saavaka (disciple) 168. pacceka (individually) 169. sammaa (right) 170. Bodhi (enlightenment) 171. vara (turn) 172. aagantuka (visiting) 173. atimahantaa (very great) 174. mahantaa (great) 175. parittaa (weak, less) 176. atiparittaa (very weak) 177. i.t.tha (nice, good) 178. ani.t.tha (poor, bad) 179. vanno (colour) 180. pathavii (solidity) 181. tejo (temperature, heat-cold) 182. apo (fluidity) 183. vayo (pressure, movement, force) 184. pasaada (sensitivity, clarity) 185. itthi (feminine) 186. puurisa(musculine) 187. bhaava (hood/maleness, femaleness) 188. bhava (existence, becoming, life) 189. vibhava (absence of life or existence) 190. hadaya (heart-base or heart) 191. jiivita (life) 192. aahaara (nutriment) 193. vinatti (special message making people know) 194. kaaya (bodily) 195. vacii (verbal) 196. upaacaya (initial formation) 197. santati (sustained formation) 198. jarataa (ageing) 199. aniccataa (vanishing) 200. jaati (birth) 201. jaraa (ageing) 202. byaadhi (disease) 203. mara.na (death) 204. soka (sorrow) 205. parideva (lamentation) 206. dukkha (pain) 207. upayaasaa(despair, hopelessness) 208. sa.laayatana (6-sense-bases) 209. upadaana (clinging) 210. adhipati (predominant) 211. antara (interval, space, gap) 212. anantara (gaplessness, without interval) 213. samanantara (well paved, well jointed, well gaplessness) 214. sahajaata (coming together_jaata : born, saha :together) 215. a~n~nama~n~na (mutuality) 216. nissaya (dependence) 217. upanissaya (decisive support condition) 218. purejaata (prenascent) 219. pacchaajaata (postnascent) 220. aasevana (repetition) 221. indriya (faculty) 222. sampayutta (companion, accompanying) 223. vippayutta (non-accompanying) 224. atthi (presence) 225. natthi (absence) 226. vigata (having gone, disappearance) 227. avigata (non-disappearance) 228. pariccheda (dividing, spacing) 229. paccaya (cause) 230. pariggaha (support) 231. sabba (all, every) 232. dhaarana (bearing, carrying) Just a collection for facilitation of dhamma study. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 56225 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 11:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 853 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' Just before actual arising of 1st ruupa-jhaana and just after emerging from the first ruupa jhaana the citta is so pure that it can be said that it maintains the purity of 1st jhaana quality. And this frequently is referred to as 'cittas in the vicinity of 1st ruupa- jhaana' or cittas with upacaara samaadhi with the power or quality of 1st ruupa jhaana. As there is definite object for 1st ruupa jhaana this definite object cannot be nibbana, no doubt (at least for me). If the object of a citta is truely nibbana then that citta has to be lokuttaraa cittas. This means that it has to be magga citta or phala citta and nother cittas including ruupajhaana cittas and aruupajhaana cittas, who definitely have their specified objects. Some may ask. Did The Buddha preached object? The Buddha did preach on object. Objects are dhammas and with the only exception of pannatti all other objects are paramattha dhamma and they all are ultimately realities. They all are the bases or foundations where liberation way is based. Examples; Rupa or ruupaaramma.na or 'visual object' or 'forms' or 'objects of seeing-consciousness' is ruupa dhamma. It has the characteristic of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Likewise other objects such as saddaaramma.na or auditory object or sound, gandhaaramma.na or olfactory object or smell, rasaaramma.na or gustatory object or taste, and photthabbaaramma.na or tactile object or touch are all ruupa dhamma and they all have the characterstics of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The 6th object or the 6th aramma.na can be any of the following six. 1. any of five pasaada ruupa (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body- sensitivity). 2. any of 16 sukhuma ruupas or 16 subtle materials 3. any of 89 cittas or 89 consciousness 4. any of 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors 5. nibbana 6. pannatti The citta can know only one single object at any given time. The first 5 dhamma are realities. The first two classes that is 5 and 16 altogether 21 dhammas are ruupa dhamma. The third and the fourth dhamma are naama dhamma. The fifth dhamma is also a naama dhamma. But the fifth dhamma cannot take any object or cannot know any object but citta can know it and it is included in naama dhamma. The sixth dhamma is not ultimate reality. Just before 1st jhaana and just after 1st jhaana are cittas that have quality of 1st jhaana even though they are kaamavacara cittas. 1st jhaana cittas have to always be ruupaavacara ruupa-jhaana. The object of ruupaavacara ruupakusala citta is pa.tibhaaga nimitta or pannatti and it is not nibbana. So ruupavacara 1st ruupa jhaana cittas are never lokuttaraa cittas. But they can be based for arising of lokuttaraa cittas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56226 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/1/2006 5:39:37 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Not all arahants are equal ;-)) There are arahants and there are great arahants. They have all penetrated the same truths, but do so with different levels of accumulated understanding of dhammas (as I understand it). Jon Hi Jon I think I know what you mean... The Great Arahats are those with the Abhidhamma perspective. ;-) TG 56227 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 0:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Sarah and Han, and, of course, Htoo - > > > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > > Meeting is leaving soon. > > > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > > ------------------------------------ > > was simply a lovely general commentary on the impermanence of > persons > > indicating that deaths occur, endings occur, and that meetings > lead to leavings. But > > based on what you write here, Sarah, I now assume that Htoo has > been in touch > > with you and has indicated that he will be leaving this list and > apparently > > lots of other lists. If this is so, Htoo, I will miss having > you "around", and I > > wish you ALL the best in whatever it is that you will be doing. > Please do > > keep in touch. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Dear Howard, > > Thank you very much for your kind words. I will be posting if my > Gmail works. It is htoo.naing@... . > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > Dear Htoo, Hoping you can read this still ... Although you mentioned leaving (elsewhere in another context recently), I didn't think it would be as final as these posts on dsg make it sound. I thought you were simply 'taking a long break' from the internet. I am very sorry that circumstances are causing this to happen, I will miss your presence and the confidence readers can have in your posts. I know you will be doing whatever is for the best, and I will always think of you with metta and gratitude. Nothing will seem quite the same without seeing your familiar 'tag- line' on a post. May you be safe and protected, May you be healthy and strong, May you be happy of heart and mind, May you live with ease and well-being. Thank you, dear Dhamma Friend, for all the good you have done and for helping to keep us on the Straight and Direct Path. metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 56228 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Dear Htoo, Hoping you can read this still ... Although you mentioned leaving (elsewhere in another context recently), I didn't think it would be as final as these posts on dsg make it sound. I thought you were simply 'taking a long break' from the internet. I am very sorry that circumstances are causing this to happen, I will miss your presence and the confidence readers can have in your posts. I know you will be doing whatever is for the best, and I will always think of you with metta and gratitude. Nothing will seem quite the same without seeing your familiar 'tag- line' on a post. May you be safe and protected, May you be healthy and strong, May you be happy of heart and mind, May you live with ease and well-being. Thank you, dear Dhamma Friend, for all the good you have done and for helping to keep us on the Straight and Direct Path. metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine and all, Thanks for your kind words and wishes. I also learned from you all while I tried to present Dhamma as I understand. I still remember my poor posts with many flaws. As I said to other friends, I will be trying to send messages whenever possible. I may even use snail-mail to forward my messages through certain friend/s. Thanks again for being good friends and Dhamma friends. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I may have some time to post 20 posts or so. 56229 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 2:43pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 854 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: So ruupavacara 1st ruupa jhaana cittas are never lokuttaraa cittas. But they can be based for arising of lokuttaraa cittas. If they are based the lokuttaraa cittas that arise can be called as lokuttaraa jhaana cittas. Here the object is not the object of jhaana. The object here is nibbana. But these lokuttaraa jhaana cittas are lokuttaraa cittas and they are not 'ruupaavacara ruupa-jhaana cittas', which are mundane consciousness. After repeated entering into 1st jhaana and repeated retrospection on 1st jhaana all the jhaana factors in 1st jhaanas are examined thoroughly through restrospection or paccavekkhanaa viithi and then the weakest factor is noticed. It is vitakka or initial-application. It is said to be weak because it can at any time destroy the first jhaana. Because vitakka is like an oar in a boat and it will rows to many different areas if there is no control over it. If vitakka wander about on sensuous things then it will become kaama- vitakka rather than jhaana-vitakka. When it becomes kaama-vitakka it already destroys the 1st jhaana. So it seems to be the weakest jhaana factor in the 1st ruupa jhaana. When this fact is known through direct experience with paccavekkhanaa or retrospection the vitakka in first jhaana is assumed as undesirable factor and the practitioner will try to achieve the sign without vitakka. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56230 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/1/2006 5:39:37 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Not all arahants are equal ;-)) There are arahants and there are great > arahants. > > They have all penetrated the same truths, but do so with different > levels of accumulated understanding of dhammas (as I understand it). > > Jon > > > > Hi Jon > > I think I know what you mean... The Great Arahats are those with the > Abhidhamma perspective. ;-) > > TG --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, TG and all, I think here the idea of 'arahat' and the idea of 'great arahat' bring some form of self-view or di.t.thi. Are all 'Sammaasambuddhas' the same? Are all arahats the same? Are all paccekkabuddhas the same? [in terms of accumulation] With respect, Htoo Naing 56231 From: "nanapalo" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nana_palo@... great Gunasaro, what the greatest way to comprehend the Abhidhamma is to translate it into our daily life action. greatly appreciate your effort in the Dhamma. kind regards, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunasaro" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:32 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Hello Dear Sarah: Thanks for Your kind response & support... The Abhidhamma Course is taking place in Bogor, a city nearby Jakarta [included in The Greater Jakarta, 1-1½ hrs from Jakarta by car]. We're staying in Jakarta & now the class's discussing about RUPA [material] & 31 realms. Our new group from Jakarta has 9 people, started from early this year. So, actually we inserted in the middle of the intermediate subject. But it's fine; all of us feel very convenience with the tutoring methods from Mr. Selamat. <....> 56232 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 2:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) buddhistmedi... Dear Han, Htoo, and Sarah (and Nina): Indeed I feel most fortunate to have this discussion with you all. I believe it will help me learn more about kilesa, aasava, and avijja. I would appreciate Nina's thought too. >Sarah[#56204]: I think that no matter how the defilements (kilesa) are listed or categorised, they refer to the same lobha, dosa and moha. As Tep writes here, 'when any hindrance arises there also arises ignorance'. We know that ignorance always accompanies any akusala of any kind. It is blind at that moment to the harm of akusala. It also accompanies moments of ditthi (wrong view). Moha is ignorant at that moment of the truth and ditthi has wrong view about it. >Han [#56213]: If you insert Pali words (taken from the original Pali text of the sutta) in the passage that Tep has quoted, "with the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance, and with the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints" will become "with the arising of the aasava there is the arising of avijjaa, and with the cessation of avijjaa there is the cessation of the aasava". This is a true fact and there is no question about it. >But in Tep's comments "so I think the five hindrances [sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt] are also taints", I have nothing to say if "taints" here mean any other kilesas. But if the "taints" here mean aasavas then it is incorrect, because niivaranas and aasavas are not the same. That was why I said not to use the English word "taints" loosely and that I would rather go by Pali words. >Htoo [#56220]: I agree with U Han Tun. But we have to weigh against readers who know little Paa.li and readers who want to know what The Buddha actually say. In one of Dhamma Thread I presented that niivarana akusalas arise when doing meditation. But they are not as strong as upadaana. .................... Tep: I agree with Sarah in principle that "ignorance always accompanies any akusala" and that ignorance is a companion of wrong view. But Han has pointed out that the precise meaning of taints is 'aasava', not just defilements(lobha, dosa, moha) in the general sense. Further, Han says that the five hindrances are *not* aasava. So Htoo is right to agree with Han. However, there are some doubts in my mind. Questions: Why are hindrances not a part of aasava? Are hindrances not 'kilesa'? Is 'kilesa' same as 'akusala'? I don't have a premeditated answer for each of these questions, Han, because I don't know. Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out. Yours truly, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, Sarah, and U Htoo Naing, > > I will not argue against your views about avijjaa, > aasava, and niivarana on "general terms". > But in this particular context of MN 9, I wish to > review Tep's comments again. > (snipped) 56233 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Han, Htoo, and Sarah (and Nina): Questions: Why are hindrances not a part of aasava? Are hindrances not 'kilesa'? Is 'kilesa' same as 'akusala'? I don't have a premeditated answer for each of these questions, Han, because I don't know. Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out. Yours truly, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, Han, Sarah, Nina and all, A good board of discussion. The Buddha preached Dhamma according to the audience. Aasava and niivara.na are not the same. Even if they are same the similarity will be because of the characters as paramattha dhamma. Otherwise The Buddha would not have preached separately. Aasava dhamma are 4. Kaamasava, bhavaasava, di.t.thaasava, and avijjaasava. Kaamasava can work as kaamacchanda niivara.na. Kaamacchanda can be kaamasava. But byaapaada niivara.na is not aasava. Nor do uddhacca-kukkucca and thina-middha niivara.na. This is according to base dhamma that is paramattha dhamma. But aasava and niivara.na will not be the same. Hindrances are part of kilesa. But they are not equated. kilesa is mainly talked on cetasika. Akusala is mainly talked on cittas. All akusala cittas are javana cittas. With much respect to all, Htoo Naing 56234 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:16pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - Thank you for leaving me with something to ponder. >M: >1. Concentrating develops samadhi. The deeper the samadhi, the deeper the one-pointedness, it seems to 'tolerate' only certain types of agitations of the mind. vitakka and vichara are tolerated in the first jhana, but in the second they are ejected and only piti suka is tolerated. >2. There is mention in the suttas of someone thinking 'this vitakka vicara is an agitation, what if I abide without it (or words to that effect). This another way of doing it, but one must have trained well in adhi-citta to do such things. >3. It it is possible to have all the factors of a jhaana outside of jhana. But if the 5 hindrences are still arising, then it is not a jhana. >4. It might be better to think of jhana as a state where many factors are absent (hence deep calm), rather than a state where something is present. Tep: I like 1., 2. and 3. Can you explain your reasoning for 4. ? Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi my friend Tep, > (snipped). > > I think it is important to note that just because there is flour, > eggs, sugar etc this does not automatically make it a cake. IT must > all be processed and baked together for a good period of time. It it > is possible to have all the factors of a jhaana outside of jhana. But > if the 5 hindrences are still arising, then it is not a jhana. If > there is no adequate samadhi it is not a jhana. It might be better to > think of jhana as a state where many factors are absent (hence deep > calm), rather than a state where something is present. > > metta > > Matheesha > 56235 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:18pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 855 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: When vitakka is dispassionated it becomes less frequent factor to arise in the form of kaama-vitakka or sensuous thinking by initial application. That is the sign seems arising without the help of vitakka. In this matter there is a simile of two friends and the king. Two friends are close friends. One is one of the minister of the king and he is very familiar with the king. When his friend wants to see the king then the minister friend calls his friend with him and go and meet with the king. After several time non-minister friend becomes acquainted with the king and finally it is possible for him to see the king without the help of his friend minister. Here the king is citta. The minister is vitakka and the friend is vicaara. Vitakka and vicaara are close friends. They almost always work together with only a few exception where there is vicaara only and there is no vitakka. Otherwise they always arise together. There are 55 cittas among 121 total cittas. These 55 cittas are associated with vitakka. In these 55 cittas vicaara is also associated. There are 11 cittas that there is vicaara but there is no vitakka. These 11 cittas are 8 lokuttaraa 2nd jhaana cittas and 3 mundane 2nd jhaana cittas. There are 54 kaamaavacara cittas or 54 consciousness of sensuous plane. Among these 54 cittas, 10 cittas ( 10 pa~ncavi~n~naana cittas_2 eye- consciousness, 2 ear-con, 2 nose-con, 2 tongue con, and 2 body- consciousness) do not need vitakka. So vitakka arise in 44 cittas in 54 kaama cittas. Along with 11 1st jhaana cittas there are 55 cittas that vitakka can arises with. Along with these 55 cittas 11 2nd jhaana cittas make a total of 66 cittas and these 66 cittas are accompanied by vicaara cetasika. Because of dispassion vitakka arise less powerfully and it is no more in the power of jhaana vitakka while the power of 1st jhaana is still maintained while in the vicinity of 1st ruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56236 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:20pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 856 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: Because of the power of 1st jhaana it is not very difficult to achieve the second ruupa jhaana in terms of sign. That is pa.tibhaaga nimitta or the counter sign arises soon. But this sign is not particularly directed. But this sign is regularly reviewed by vicaara. Here vitakka does not arise and only vicaara arises to review the object. Now it is not absorbed yet and the mind is flexibly moving around the object. As pa.tibhaaga nimitta is there the bhaavanaa or cultivation at that time is upacaara bhaavanaa or proximate cultivation and it is close to 2nd ruupa jhaana. The cittas here are kaama cittas with the power of 1st jhaana cittas. The object is pa.tibhaaga nimitta. These kaama cittas are javana cittas and they are taking the object with specifically associated cetasikas. All these cetasikas support the citta and these supporting cetasikas in terms of jhaana factors are vicaara, piiti, sukha (vedanaa), and ekaggataa. Vitakka is there but it is not working as jhaana factor. When these four jhaana factors become powerful and work as jhaana factor and there is no hindrances then it can be said that the javana cittas that are kaama cittas are in the power of 2nd ruupa jhaana even though they are not absorbed yet. Because of non-absorption they are flexible and movable. At a time the citta is strongly attracted and pulled into the object and they merge together as if they are just one phenomenon. That is the citta and its object are fused and there arise appanaa bhaavanaa or appanaa samaadhi, which is the second ruupa jhaana. Initially it arises only once or one moment and passes away immediately. Now the 2nd ruupa jhaana is also practised as in case of 1st ruupa jhaana. When all five masteries have been attained then the practitioner can be said to be proficient in second ruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56237 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:24pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 857 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: Pathavii kasi.na is being practised and now 2nd ruupa jhaana has been arrived. In the same manner with ascending from 1st to 2nd this 2nd ruupa jhaana is again checked through the power of paccavekkhana or restrospection and when the danger of vicaara is seen there starts to arise dispassion to vicaara. This finally is left behind and there arise only three jhaana factors of piiti, sukha and ekaggataa. This is the third ruupa jhaana and there are only three jhaana factos. They are piiti, sukha and ekaggataa. Mastery has to be practised and finally proficiency arises. Again piiti is weaker than sukha and ekaggataa. And piiti itself is quite close to the danger of falling back to 2nd jhaana because it is close with vicaara and this again will draw back to 1st jhaana and finally back to sensuous plane of citta. When piiti is dispassionated only sukha and ekaggataa will arise and this approaches the 4th ruupa jhaana with only sukha and ekaggataa jhaana factors. At each stage of jhaana mastery is the main to control the power of jhaana. As sukha again is close to piiti and this again is linked to vicaara to vitakka and back to kaama world. Sukhaa is dispassionated and only ekaggataa will be the chief factor and in place of sukha there only arise an equanimous state and it is upakkhaa. When appanaa bhaavanaa arise this is the 5th ruupa jhaana and it is the highest of all ruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56238 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I like the following clear answers you gave : > Aasava dhamma are 4. Kaamasava, bhavaasava, di.t.thaasava, and avijjaasava. > > Kaamasava can work as kaamacchanda niivara.na. > > Kaamacchanda can be kaamasava. > > But byaapaada niivara.na is not aasava. Nor do uddhacca- kukkucca and thina-middha niivara.na. > But aasava and niivara.na will not be the same. ........................... Tep: But I have some questions to ask further. Htoo: > Hindrances are part of kilesa. But they are not equated. > > kilesa is mainly talked on cetasika. > > Akusala is mainly talked on cittas. All akusala cittas are javana > cittas. Tep: Which parts of kilesa are hindrances? Why is kilesa related to cetasika, not citta? Isn't akusala a cetasika? Warm regards, Tep P.S. When will your 'Bye Bye' be effective and why? ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Han, Htoo, and Sarah (and Nina): > > > > Questions: > Why are hindrances not a part of aasava? > Are hindrances not 'kilesa'? > Is 'kilesa' same as 'akusala'? > > I don't have a premeditated answer for each of these questions, > Han, because I don't know. > > Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out. > > Yours truly, > > Tep > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, Han, Sarah, Nina and all, > > A good board of discussion. > > The Buddha preached Dhamma according to the audience. Aasava and > niivara.na are not the same. Even if they are same the similarity > will be because of the characters as paramattha dhamma. Otherwise > The Buddha would not have preached separately. > (snipped) > This is according to base dhamma that is paramattha dhamma. > (snipped) > > With much respect to all, > > Htoo Naing > 56239 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness Conceptualizations of the SATIPATTHANA SUTTA kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Howard), -------- S: Ken H, I think Howard was correct here when he inicated an overlap. If you look at the dhammas including under dhammanupassana, you'll see that everything is included, eg the 5 khandhas. -------- Thanks; I see what you mean, although I more or less knew that at the time. I think the initial confusion was due more to my poor communication than to actual disagreement. ------------------ S: > [One other small detail - sometime I think you referred to the sotapanna no longer committing any akusala kammapatha. ------------------ Yes, that sounds like one of mine. :-) -------------------------------------- S: > I think we have to be more precise - just certain kinds such as killing, stealing etc are no longer committed and there's no chance of any longer being reborn in the lower realms. Of course, no longer any wrong view either. Other kinds of akusala kamma patha, such as certain kinds of speech or certain akusala kamma patha through the mind is still possible.] -------------------------------------- I hadn't thought it out properly. The Sotapanna can't break any of the five precepts: I was equating that with being incapable of any akusala kamma-patha at all. I think I see where I went wrong: The Buddhist Dictionary says that akusala mental actions "comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views." I must have extended that same principle to bodily and verbal actions - which wouldn't leave much to akusala-kamma-patha that didn't also amount to breaking the five precepts. Thanks for clearing that up. I am wondering about the dictionary's definition. You say a sotapanna can commit certain akusala kamma-patha through the mind, but would you say he/she could commit any of the three (extreme) mental actions listed in the dictionary? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi KenH & Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > KH:> > I believe the fourth foundation includes all possible objects of > > > satipatthana that do not fall into one of the other three > > > foundations. > > > > --------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > But there is clear overlap, Ken. :-( > > --------------------------------------- > > > > 56240 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye lbidd2 Hi Htoo, I also will be sorry to see you leave. I have learned a great deal from the Dhamma Threads and hope you can continue them. One last question: how do you develop a nimitta if the object is the breath? What do you do about the constant fluctuation and change? Do you develop an idea of touch? How do you extend this sign? Anumodana and thank you very much. Larry 56241 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 5:36pm Subject: Vism.XVII,59 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 59. Herein, while ignorance about any instance that is not the two supramundane truths can also arise as object (see par. 102), nevertheless here it is only intended [subjectively] as concealment. For when [thus] arisen it keeps the truth of 'suffering' concealed, preventing penetration of the true individual function and characteristic of the truth. Likewise, origin, cessation, and the path, bygone five aggregates called 'the past', coming five aggregates called 'the future, both of these together called 'the past and future' and both 'specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states'--all of which it keeps concealed, preventing their true individual functions and characteristics being penetrated thus: 'This is ignorance, these are formations'. That is why it is said, 'It is unknowing about suffering ... unknowing about specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states'. ******************************** 59. tattha ki~ncaapi .thapetvaa lokuttara.m saccadvaya.m sesa.t.thaanesu aaramma.navasena avijjaa uppajjati, eva.m santepi pa.ticchaadanavaseneva idha adhippetaa. saa hi uppannaa dukkhasacca.m pa.ticchaadetvaa ti.t.thati, yaathaavasarasalakkha.na.m pa.tivijjhitu.m na deti, tathaa samudaya.m, nirodha.m, magga.m, pubbantasa"nkhaata.m atiita.m khandhapa~ncaka.m, aparantasa"nkhaata.m anaagata.m khandhapa~ncaka.m, pubbantaaparantasa"nkhaata.m tadubhaya.m, idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppannadhammasa"nkhaata.m idappaccayata~nceva pa.ticcasamuppannadhamme ca pa.ticchaadetvaa ti.t.thati. ``aya.m avijjaa, ime sa"nkhaaraa''ti eva.m yaathaavasarasalakkha.namettha pa.tivijjhitu.m na deti. tasmaa dukkhe a~n~naa.na.m...pe0... idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppannesu dhammesu a~n~naa.nanti vuccati. 56242 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 5:46pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana scottduncan2 Tep: "Yes. It is true that tranquillity may arise not only while one is on a cushion. I also have experienced some jhana factors such as vitakka & vicara, piti & sukha and some degree of concentration (samadhi), while walking back and forth and contemplating 'body in the body' (kayanupassana-satipatthana) long enough." Dear Tep, Please forgive the tardiness or my reply. I live the "householder" life. That was good to read that the phenomenon is not unknown to others. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Scott. 56243 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 5:52pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" in relation to satipatthaana scottduncan2 M: "I posted this sometime back - we can discuss this if you like..." > > -------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Please forgive the time it took for me to get back to you. I'll need to spend more time going over the material you so kindly provided. I have read it once, but see that I need more time to consider it and this, alas, is sometimes difficult for me to find. Until later, then. Sincerely, Scott.> > > .[16] Mastery in adverting is the ability to advert to the jhana > factors one by one after emerging from the jhana, wherever he wants, > whenever he wants, and for as long as he wants. Mastery in attaining > is the ability to enter upon jhana quickly, mastery in resolving the > ability to remain in the jhana for exactly the pre-determined length > of time, mastery in emerging the ability to emerge from jhana quickly > without difficulty, and mastery in reviewing the ability to review > the jhana and its factors with retrospective knowledge immediately > after adverting to them. When the meditator has achieved this > fivefold mastery, then he is ready to strive for the second jhana. > The Jhanas > In Theravada Buddhist Meditation > by > Henepola Gunaratana > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351 > .html#16 > > M: The process of achieving jhanas is a fairly 'labour intensive'. A > useful place to start would be reading the above. > > I train people in jhana and the experience is that it takes about 2 - > 3, one hour sittings per day of mindfulness of breath of a very > focused type to achieve this as a lay person (months), or in much > shorter time in a retreat setting (weeks). Another possibility is > people who have been doing meditation over many many years may > naturally go into jhana during their practice. My lineage teaches > mastery of the jhaana. (i.e.- intense pleasure apart from this is > unlikely to be jhana). > > There has to be fairly good concentration ability, but it doesn't have > to be perfect. Especially with time, it becomes easier to go into > jhana when you have done it before. But in intense (and initial) > retreat practice there should be an undistracted period of > concentration about 30-40 minutes, maybe with a few interrupting > thoughts. This level of samadhi is ripe to give rise to jhana. With > time it takes less and less time to get into a jhaana from the time > you sat down. > > For many people jhana happen naturally i.e.- they go into jhana > without > any control over it. They will go deeper and deeper into samadhi and > suddenly emerge into a jhana. They will do this initially for a few > seconds. Mastery over jhaana means having that control. In our > retreat setting we tell meditators whose samadhi is good to make a > determination to enter into the first jhaana. > > What happens next is (sometimes) a 'change' is observed. Often there > is feeling of the mind being 'lifted' to a higher level. Or it might > be a change in colour of what was being perceived with the eyes > closed. Some people sense a rush of colours, or may experience > shivering of the body for a second. (some of these phenomena change > with time) But this alone isn't enough. > > Immediately afterwards there has to be a sensation of having entered > a different state of consciousness to the one which was there before. > That is, one with much more one-pointedness which is effortless (the > mind feels like a 'rock'). Often in deep states of samadhi, awareness > is very little. When entering into a jhana there is a sudden increase > in awareness -like breaking out from under water into open air. There > are still thoughts. But external distractions a limited. > > It is possible to experience jhana very 'thinly'. One needs to > perfect the concentration more to experience a text book jhana if > this is the case. (see moggallana's jhana training where the Buddha > instructs him of this, when it happened). I personally experience > piti and sukha more when this is done. Some people seem to experience > joy and rapture much more than others. It is useful to perfect one > jhana before going higher up (as mentioned by the Buddha) as it will > become very hit or miss otherwise. it is possible to stay in a jhana > for the time period which you will like to (internal biological clock > being used). Useful to gain control over when you come out of a > jhana. These movements in and out of jhaana are practised by > repeatedly making determinations until one has them under control. It > is possible to experience jhana factors one by one if you like to do > that again by making determinations. > > Obviously the hindrances should be missing in a properly developed > 1st jhana. When piti and sukha are developed everything one > experiences at the time is tinged with these qualities. Hence if you > focus on the breath it feels very 'sweet'. If you focus on any part > of the body, rapture fills up that area. There must a determined > effort to move your mind to focus unlike in the normal mind state > where it is easy. I find that when I'm in the second jhaana I cannot > move even a finger, even if I wanted to. But this might be different > for different people. > > The higher in the jhaanas you go, the lesser control you seem to have > (possibly because it is poorly developed). There is more and more > solid one-pointedness. In the second jhaana discursive thinking shuts > down. piti and sukha are probably at their highest here. In arupa > jhaanas there is a qualitative difference in the one-pointedness. It > seems spread out, rather than inwardly directed. The idea that there > are 9 jhaana seems unrealistic. > > The stepwise progression from one jhana to the next is very > interesting as these 'jumps' can be felt. However some people don't > feel them very well and there can be confusion for the teacher and > the student as to exactly where the student has gone! Some people > only feel the steps when coming down from a higher jhana to a lower > jhana. > > When someone comes out of jhana the rapture and samadhi (if it was > strong) can carry on into their waking consciousness as well. When > samadhi and jhana are well developed defilements arise less during > the day time. Craving can be controlled easily. There is even less > need for sleep when it is really strong. However the faculties need > to be balanced. Otherwise too much samadhi can make a person feel > groggy. > > I'm writing with some reluctance as there maybe people who will take > this the wrong way. You used the term attainment, which I don't really > agree with or see it as. Jhana are only a tool, but an essential one > to develop. Anyone can become a sotapanna at least on his or her death > bed by believing that everything is impermanent (faith-follower). But > I think we need to set our sights higher. A person will think this > only when they see what IS actually possible (jhanas etc). > > These things might sound fantastical but anyone who sets out to do > this can do it. It takes determination and every one who has that can > do it. Lay people can most definitely do it. I've had many friends > achieving these states and they are not anything magical. All of them > work and practice and have families. > ------------------------ > > metta > > Matheesha > 56244 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 8:28pm Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- KH: > > Yes, intellectual understanding comes first. Does K Sujin say > differently? Does anyone seriously believe she insists on direct > insight from the beginning? Surely not! And yet you wrote: > > --- > >> Well, I just don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in > fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but that > is just pretense. >> > --- > > ========================= H: > What do you mean "And yet you wrote"!!!?? Please read again what you quoted me as saying at the top, that I understood Chris to be referring to a direct, true understanding, and then see that at the bottom I was referring to that when I said that it is an unreasonable requirement to be starting out with that. It helps to be perplexed by what I say rather than what I don't say (if you are going to be perplexed by anything at all. -------------- Sorry to be making a mountain out of a molehill, but I will give a brief history of what happened: The last quote I gave (above) was your first comment on the subject. I contended that this was a straw man: K Sujin does not say that we start with direct insight into the anatta characteristic, and yet your comment suggested that she does. You pointed out that such a belief would be "pretence." In doing so, you knocked down a straw man that you yourself had put up. This gave the false impression that you had scored a debating point against K Sujin. Again, I apologise for making a mountain out of a molehill, but (to use Christine's phrase), "you did ask." :-) ----------------- KH: > > Nothing can be done by a self, but many > things can be done by conditioned dhammas. Ultimately the world is > only conditioned dhammas. And yet, when people try to express that > ====================== H: > There is no debate here, Ken. I don't believe in self, and I have personally experienced not being or having one. This is a red herring, Ken. You raise this non-issue as a way of hiding the view that nothing can be done, that willing is illusion. ------------------ I should make clear that I am not singling you out. The way I see it, you represent the vast majority of today's Buddhists. As Robert K was saying, there is precious little support for the Abhidhamma and Commentaries (let alone for K Sujin) in the West. (And, as far as I know, there is not a great deal more in the East.) So, remembering that I am not alleging any particular atta-belief on your part, let me remind you of K Sujin's comment on the 'helplessness and hopelessness' issue: she said, "Because the idea of self is there, so it's hopeless." (post #56162) You, of course, would disagree, but can you see why it might seem that way? Why else, for example, would you divide the ancient texts into legitimate, genuine, Suttanta and Vinaya on the one hand and illegitimate, lately added-on, Abhidhamma and Commentaries on the other? The only apparent difference between the two is that conventional living beings and conventional courses of action are mentioned in the former where only dhammas and their functions are mentioned in the latter. So it seems that helplessness and hopelessness enter the picture whenever conventional reality is threatened. --------------------- H: > (Unless, of course, you yourself actually believe that there is no willing without a self who wills. But if that is so, it is your problem, not mine.) ---------------------- If you read Nina's "Cetasikas" you will see the functions that cetana performs in its brief, one-citta-long existence. That is the only context in which there is any real willing. Cetana arises and wills by conditions. It is no more remarkable than any other dhamma. Again, if I accuse you of grasping at straws (latching onto willpower as the last, subconscious hope for an eternal soul) I am really accusing modern-day Buddhism with its belief in formal practices - not you personally. Ken H 56245 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:09pm Subject: Re: Bye Bye philofillet Hi all Htoo has made wonderful contributions to all these lists - but it doesn't matters who leaves and who doesn't leave. A moment of understanding seeing, hearing, tasting, touching - this is all that matters. (I say this because I am leaving my mother tomorrow, probable "forever", but the Buddha taught us about much more fleeting realities that we can come to understand.) Thank you, Htoo, for your wonderful contributions to this and other internet lists. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Sarah and Han, and, of course, Htoo - > > > > > > > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > > 56249 From: Inge Endah Hartati Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Start Learning Abhidamma ingeendah Tks for ur support. Ofcourse I will read the books n keep browsing. Actually I aldy start learning abhidhamma but still confuse n need more guidance.... I beleve pak Selamat and yu wei can guide me. Tks so much. rgds Inge --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Inge, > > It's good to see so many Indonesians joining us > recently and to hear of > your interest in the Abhidhamma. <...> 56250 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 9:37pm Subject: What is Good Lay Buddhist Praxis ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: A fine friend asked me this good question:>Venerable Bhikkhu Samahita: >Please give a dhamma lesson for a layperson (me) who works, >watches his daughters, has little money/time for retreats, >and just wants to be a good layperson Buddhist. >Thank You ____________________________________________________________________OK! Well then acute attention to these 4 simple points is quite advantageous:1: Keep the precepts completely clean. 2: Meditate 45 min every morning 5-6 am. 3: Study the Sutta Pitaka thoroughly. 4: Support the Sangha regularly. For Exact Details: Please see what the Buddha himself said: Regarding Lay Buddhist Praxis: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#family The layperson's code of conduct: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-31-nt1.html What it takes for a layperson to become a stream-winner: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html How a layperson can best work for the welfare of others: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-026.html Five qualities of a sincere lay follower: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-175.html Five rewards a layperson can expect for having conviction: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-038.html Actions that only lead to one's downfall: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1-06.html How skillful actions and choices can protect you: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp2-04.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp.html#khp-5 Development of the first six recollections can be done no matter how busy you are: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html How to recognize a lay stream-winner: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-179.html Examples of lay stream-winners in the suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#stream Anathapindika: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel334.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-names.html#anathapindika Nakula's mother: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-016.html Suppabuddha (the leper): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5-03.html Visakha (a.k.a. Migara's Mother): see her entry in the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-names.html#visakha1 Buddhist Culture, The Cultured Buddhist (Robert Bogoda) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bogoda/bl139.html : - ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56251 From: "Pablo" Date: Wed Mar 1, 2006 11:11pm Subject: Re: Bye Bye cerini_pablo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > Meeting is leaving soon. > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > In neither a month that I'm in this mailing list, I've learnt very many things from you.Your posting were always very profitable,if not amazing. I'm really sorry you are leaving. Thank you for having spread so much knowledge. Cerini Pablo 56252 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) hantun1 Dear Tep, Thank you very much for your very interesting questions. Tep’s questions: (1) Why are hindrances not a part of aasava? (2) Are hindrances not 'kilesa'? (3) Is 'kilesa' same as 'akusala'? I don't have a premeditated answer for each of these questions, Han, because I don't know. ----------------------------- Han: (1) Why are hindrances not a part of aasava? What I wrote was “… because niivaranas and aasavas are not the same”. But you rephrased the question as “Why are hindrances not a part of aasava?” So I can only answer based on what I had written, i.e., why niivaranas and aasavas are not the same? Please read the following to know why niivaranas and aasavas are not the same. Five niivaranas (sutta classification) (i) kaamacchanda = sense-desire; it is lobha cetasika in the 8 lobha-muula cittas. (ii) vyaapaada = ill-will; it is dosa cetasika in the 2 dosa-muula cittas. (iii) thina-middha = sloth and torpor; they are thina cetasika and middha cetasika. (iv) uddhacca-kukkucca = restlessness and brooding or worry; they are uddhacca cetasika and kukkucca cetasika. (v) vicikicchaa = skeptical doubt or perplexity; it is vicikicchaa cetasika. Four aasavas (i) kaamaasava = attachment to sensual pleasure in the sense-sphere; it is lobha cetasika associated with 8 lobha-muula cittas. (ii) bhavaasava = attachmnent to ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana as well as to the existence in the ruupa planes and aruupa planes; it is lobha cetasika associated with 4 lobha-muula cittas. (iii) ditthaasava = 62 kinds of false views; it is ditthi cetasika present in 4 lobha-muula ditthigata-sampayutta cittas. (iv) avijjaasava = ignorance with regard to the four Noble Truths, past life, future life, both past and future lives, and the Law of Dependent Origination; it is moha cetasika associated with 12 akusala cittas. [Source: The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, pages 260-261 and 256-257 respectively.] Therefore if you compare the two groups, except the similarity between kaamacchanda and kaamaasava, the rest of the factors of the two groups are different in their functions and their underlying cetasikas and cittas. -------------------------- (2) Are hindrances not 'kilesa'? The niivaranas are already described above. Kilesa:is defined in Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka as 'defilements', are mind-defiling, unwholesome qualities. Vis.M. XXII, 49, 65: "There are 10 defilements, thus called because they are themselves defiled, and because they defile the mental factors associated with them. They are: (1) greed (lobha), (2) hate (dosa), (3) delusion (moha), (4) conceit (mána), (5) speculative views (ditthi), (6) skeptical doubt (vicikicchá), (7) mental torpor (thína), (8) restlessness (uddhacca); (9) shamelessness (ahirika), (10) lack of moral dread or unconscientiousness (anottappa)." If you compare the two groups, lobha, dosa, thina, uddhacca and vicikicchaa are present in both groups. Middha and kukkucca present in niivaranas are absent in kilesas. Moha, mana, ditthi, ahirika, and anottappa present in kilesas are absent in niivaranas. Therefore, the two groups are "partially" the same. -------------------------- (3) Is 'kilesa' same as 'akusala'? Kilesas are already described above. Akusala is defined in Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka as 'unwholesome', are all those karmic volitions (kamma-cetaná; s. cetaná) and the consciousness and mental concomitants associated therewith, which are accompanied either by greed (lobha) or hate (dosa) or merely delusion (moha); and all these phenomena are causes of unfavourable karma-results and contain the seeds of unhappy destiny or rebirth. Cf. karma, paticca-samuppáda (1), Tab. II. Based on the definition of akusala and as the main ingredients of akusala (lobha, dosa, and moha) are present in kilesas, it must be said that kilesas are in fact akusala dhammas. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Han, Htoo, and Sarah (and Nina): > > Indeed I feel most fortunate to have this discussion > with you all. I > believe it will help me learn more about kilesa, > aasava, and avijja. I > would appreciate Nina's thought too. > 56253 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:35am Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ....... > Again, if I accuse you of grasping at straws (latching onto willpower > as the last, subconscious hope for an eternal soul) I am really > accusing modern-day Buddhism with its belief in formal practices - > not you personally. > > Ken H > Hallo KenH, Howard, all KenH: "I should make clear that I am not singling you out. The way I see it, you represent the vast majority of today's Buddhists. As Robert K was saying, there is precious little support for the Abhidhamma and Commentaries (let alone for K Sujin) in the West. (And, as far as I know, there is not a great deal more in the East.) Joop: As another representant of todays Buddhists in the West I will give you some information. Till some years ago no Western (Theravada-) Buddhist had even heard of Abhidhamma; only some scholars (buddhologists) did. There were hardly books in English, except Nina's books. Now there are may texts in English and other Western languages about Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma (for example as explained in the Abhidhammata Sanghaha by Bhikkhu Bodhi) is seen as a useful frame of reference for understanding the meditation practice, a kind of mathematical language. That are the facts. Another fact is that DEVOTION is not the main characteristic of most Western Theravada-Buddhists; Western Buddhists who like ESOTERIC wisdom, choose Tibetan Buddhism to be converted to. The same with "guru's"; Westerners who like a teacher with a strong personality, a guru, got (for example) Tibetan Budhists, not Theravadin. This modern fact plus the one that Westerners in general are not so FATALISTIC, make that the Sujin-variant was never so popular in Western countries. As a kind of conclusion: for a Westerner who converted himself or herself to a (Theravada-) Buddhist this was a big DECISION; without that decision he/she had stayed Christian and/or consumer. I give you one opinion as an extra: a person who thinks he or she can make moral and spiritual decisons and tries to practice them, has NOT perse more atta-belief than one who (in my eyes in a fatalistic way) waits till conditions do their work. Metta Joop 56254 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:50am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 387- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] Precise understanding of all the different phenomena of our life has to be developed. We usually pay attention only to pleasant or unpleasant sense objects, and we tend to overlook realities such as seeing or hearing. We should remember that when we experience praise or blame there are many different types of cittas. The cittas which see or hear pleasant or unpleasant objects are vipåkacittas, conditioned by kamma which was committed already, and we cannot prevent them from arising. The moment of vipåkacitta such as hearing which merely experiences sound is different from akusala citta which may arise shortly afterwards and which experiences sound in an unwholesome way, for example with attachment or aversion. Then there are other processes of cittas, cittas which may think in an unwholesome way about concepts. We may, for example, think for a long time about the wrongs other people committed towards us. If one is ignorant of vipåka one will be inclined to continually blame others for unpleasant objects which are received through the senses. We should know vipåkacittas such as seeing and hearing as well as the other types of cittas. When we realize how ignorant we still are we will be reminded to go on developing right understanding. Through right understanding we will gradually learn to attach less importance to “self”, and as a consequence we will be inclined to think more of other people’s happiness instead of our own happiness. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye nilovg Dear Htoo, Thank you for all the Dhamma you gave. I really appreciated dialogues with you.Perhaps you may come back after a while. Nina. op 01-03-2006 18:12 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Dear Sarah, > > I am leaving. Regarding Mahaajanakka it is one of 10 life stories of > Bodhisatta. 56256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) nilovg Dear Han and Tep, I had also trouble with the term taint, because in some translations it means aasava, in others something else. That is why Pali next to the English is not superfluous. Nina. op 01-03-2006 15:31 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > But in Tep’s comments “so I think the five hindrances > [sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and remorse, doubt] are also taints”, I > have nothing to say if “taints” here mean any other > kilesas. But if the “taints” here mean aasavas then it > is incorrect, because niivaranas and aasavas are not > the same. That was why I said not to use the English > word “taints” loosely and that I would rather go by > Pali words. 56257 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I also will be sorry to see you leave. I have learned a great deal from > the Dhamma Threads and hope you can continue them. > > One last question: how do you develop a nimitta if the object is the > breath? What do you do about the constant fluctuation and change? Do you > develop an idea of touch? How do you extend this sign? > > Anumodana and thank you very much. > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, In breathing meditation (aanaapaasassati) the initial object in terms of samatha is different from vipassanaa, I think. It starts with concept unlike vipassanaa. In vipassanaa it can be anything that are naama or ruupa in breathing. If touch it is fine, if movement it is fine, if the warmth of breath air it is fine, and if it is the mind itself it is fine for vipassanaa. The problem is moving. It is in and out. When tranquility is practised there arise actual sense of movement (vaayo). But this is followed by self-concept and this concept largely depends on our past experiences or our sa~n~naa. Say for an example; You are doing breathing meditation. Your mind does not spread away. It does not scatter around or scatter about. Your mind is at your nose or lip or just in front of mouth. What the mind actually perceives is movement (example). But this object vayo-photthabbaa pass away and this is followed by dhammaarammana of pannatti like smoke or cloud or something like these things. So there already is pannatti. This pannatti does not arise or does not pass away as there is no paramattha dhamma called pannatti. Preparatory object is real object. But as soon as parikamma nimitta arise it becomes pannatti. This changes into uggaha nimitta to which the mind does not need special effort to chase it. Finally the nimitta changes into pa.tibhaaga nimitta. When all 5 jhaanas are attained it become easy to achieve jhaana with kasi.na. Kasai.nas are necessary for expansion of object. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56258 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 3:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 385- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Tep: Which parts of kilesa are hindrances? Why is kilesa related to cetasika, not citta? Isn't akusala a cetasika? Warm regards, Tep P.S. When will your 'Bye Bye' be effective and why? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, When will my 'Bye Bye' be effective? It might be effective soon and may be very soon. Say about a week. But I am still not sure. Because there is no control. Why? Because I might be leaving Yahoo. If my Gmail is working then I may be able to send messages. You may or may not notice that once I started with ('htoo.naing@...' wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, ...). Your questions: a) Which part of kilesaa are hindrances? Answer: As I said they are not equation. But dhamma-wise kilesa defile citta or kilesa contaminate citta while niivara.n obstruct not to reach jhaana/magga/appanaa. There are 10 kilesas but there are 5 niivara.na. There is no overlapping in 10 kilesa but in niivara.na there are 7 dhammas. These dhammas in niivara.na are 1. lobha (kilesa) 2. dosa (kilesa) 3. thina (kilesa) 4. middha 5. uddhacca(kilesa) 6. kukkucca 7. viicikicchaa(kilesa) There are 10 kilesaa. 1. lobha (nivara.na) 2. dosa (niivara.na) 3. moha 4. maana 5. di.t.thi 6. viicikicchaa (niivara.na) 7. thina (niivara.na) 8. uddhacca (niivara.na) 9. ahirika 10.anottappa Kilesa and niivara.na are not equal. b) Why is kilesa related to cetasima, not citta? Answer: Citta itself is very very pure (100%). Because of kilesa citta become akusala cittas. c) Isn't akusala a cetasika? Answer: There are 14 akusala cetasikas. Here I say there are 14 cetasikas. The adjective here is akusala. Because the qualities of these 14 cetasikas are akusala. Citta and cetasikas cannot be separated as in case of water and milk. So when we say akusala it is both citta and cetasika. With respect, Htoo Naing 56259 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:46am Subject: RE: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. dacostacharles Hi Jon, May be even beyond them too! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TGrand458@... Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:17 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Parallel Processing, rupas. In a message dated 2/27/2006 4:18:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: But I would see awareness of a single moment of consciousness as something that is the beyond even the level of knowledge required for enlightenment; the sort of thing known only by Buddhas or the great arahants. Jon <..> 56260 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - Please go back to my original post that you quote. You are interspersing your own thoughts about Khun Sujin and then taking my remarks to pertain to her. I feel like I'm in the middle of an Alice-in-Wonderland story. I cannot defend what was not my implication. In a message dated 3/1/06 11:29:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > KH: >>Yes, intellectual understanding comes first. Does K Sujin say > >differently? Does anyone seriously believe she insists on direct > >insight from the beginning? Surely not! And yet you wrote: > > > >--- > >>>Well, I just don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in > >fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but > that > >is just pretense. >> > >--- > > > > > ========================= > H: > What do you mean "And yet you wrote"!!!?? Please read > again what you quoted me as saying at the top, that I understood > Chris to be referring to a direct, true understanding, and then see > that at the bottom I was referring to that when I said that it is an > unreasonable requirement to be starting out with that. It helps to be > perplexed by what I say rather than what I don't say (if you are > going to be perplexed by anything at all. > -------------- > > Sorry to be making a mountain out of a molehill, but I will give a > brief history of what happened: > > The last quote I gave (above) was your first comment on the subject. > I contended that this was a straw man: K Sujin does not say that we > start with direct insight into the anatta characteristic, and yet > your comment suggested that she does. ------------------------------------ Howard: I suggested nothing about what Khun Sujin does or doesn't do except for saying at one point that she doesn't require Pali. Listen, here's the borrom line. I think that YOU0R position is that we need to start with wisdom, and that there is no practice to be engaged in except study (though why you thnk that requires less volition than other practices is beyond me). I think YOUR positions are the most extreme among the admirers of the teachings of Khun Sujin, and it is YOUR positions that I strongly differ from (with the exception of the paramattha-pa~n~natti distinction, where we we are closer together). Now, how about dropping all the extraneous stuff? ------------------------------------ > > You pointed out that such a belief would be "pretence." In doing so, > you knocked down a straw man that you yourself had put up. This gave > the false impression that you had scored a debating point against K > Sujin. ------------------------------------- Howard: The facts are that Chris had gotten the impression at Cooran, as I understood her to write, that the idea was expressed there that one must start out with wisdom. I said that I thought that if that was so it was an unreasonable requirement to start out with wisdom and that holding such a view is pretence, though starting out with intellectual understanding is useful and important. I don't know Khun Sujin, I didn't hear her say anything, and I can judge only what I have read of her views in books. I have no interest in discussing her. I don't know her. Probably she's a lovely person. It's YOU I'm talking to Ken - also lovely, no doubt, but very trying! ;-) --------------------------------------- > > Again, I apologise for making a mountain out of a molehill, but (to > use Christine's phrase), "you did ask." :-) > > ----------------- > KH: >>Nothing can be done by a self, but many > >things can be done by conditioned dhammas. Ultimately the world is > >only conditioned dhammas. And yet, when people try to express that > > > ====================== > H: > There is no debate here, Ken. I don't believe in self, > and I have personally experienced not being or having one. This is a > red herring, Ken. You raise this non-issue as a way of hiding the > view that nothing can be done, that willing is illusion. > ------------------ > > I should make clear that I am not singling you out. The way I see it, > you represent the vast majority of today's Buddhists. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, Buddha forbid!! My, you must find todays Buddhists to be a sorry sight, then! I didn't know I was an official representative, though. Thank you for the honor of designating me as representative of Foolish Buddhists, Ltd, otherwise known as the Benighted Buddhist Masses, Inc! Thank goodness such a true yet humble Buddhist as you is around to save the day! ---------------------------------------- As Robert K was > > saying, there is precious little support for the Abhidhamma and > Commentaries (let alone for K Sujin) in the West. (And, as far as I > know, there is not a great deal more in the East.) ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, that settles the matter, right? Because what the Buddha taught for 45 years recorded in the suttas and vinaya pitaka is only for the Benighted Buddhist Masses! Well, you know what, Ken? I'm pleased that I'm not among the elite, in that case. ------------------------------------------- > > So, remembering that I am not alleging any particular atta-belief on > your part, let me remind you of K Sujin's comment on > the 'helplessness and hopelessness' issue: she said, "Because the > idea of self is there, so it's hopeless." (post #56162) > > You, of course, would disagree, but can you see why it might seem > that way? ----------------------------------------- Howard: What exactly would I disagree with? That if the idea of self is present (i.e., if one is not yet a stream entrant), then the task is hopeless? You *bet* I disagree with that!!! If it were so, then all the original followers of the Buddha, and the Bodhisatta himself, would never have changed their worldling status. Or is your implication that I believe that atta-belief is needed to make progress? I can't figure out *what* you mean or what you want. ------------------------------------------- > Why else, for example, would you divide the ancient texts > into legitimate, genuine, Suttanta and Vinaya on the one hand and > illegitimate, lately added-on, Abhidhamma and Commentaries on the > other? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I never called the Abhidhamma or the commentaries "illegitimate"! Why do you put words in my mouth?! I do believe that neither is the word of the Buddha. That's my prerogative. If you don't like me to think that way, that's just too bad. ------------------------------------------ The only apparent difference between the two is that > > conventional living beings and conventional courses of action are > mentioned in the former where only dhammas and their functions are > mentioned in the latter. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: That is false. There is much conventionality in the Abhidhamma. and there is much precise and literal language in the suttas. --------------------------------------- So it seems that helplessness and > > hopelessness enter the picture whenever conventional reality is > threatened. --------------------------------------- Howard: You know d-mn well that's not my point! I speak of helplessness and hopelessness when I see people using extreme views to deny all the practice teaching of the Buddha as "misunderstood" and not really meant, and to argue for the impossibility of intentional practice. I consider that a terrible disservice to other Buddhists. I am the among the first to point out that the world as we perceive it is illusory in a multitude of ways, even at the dhamma level if dhammas are grasped as independent realities! Please don't ascribe clinging to conventional objects to me and then use that as a means of analyzing my psyche. If you think you know me, rest assured - you do not! -------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > H: >(Unless, of course, you yourself actually believe that there is > no willing without a self who wills. But if that is so, it is your > problem, not mine.) > ---------------------- > > If you read Nina's "Cetasikas" you will see the functions that cetana > performs in its brief, one-citta-long existence. That is the only > context in which there is any real willing. Cetana arises and wills > by conditions. It is no more remarkable than any other dhamma. -------------------------------------- Howard: It is KAMMA, Ken! Remember kamma? The Buddha taught a little bit about that! You are so doctrinnaire as to ignore the Buddha's own teaching! -------------------------------------- > > Again, if I accuse you of grasping at straws (latching onto willpower > as the last, subconscious hope for an eternal soul) I am really > accusing modern-day Buddhism with its belief in formal practices - > not you personally. -------------------------------------- Howard: Riiight! Just one of the benighted Buddhist masses. Oh, if only all could be as you. (Ah, yes, "formal practices"!! Worse even than murder!) ------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > > > ==================== With metta and considerable exasperation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56261 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? nilovg Hallo Joop, perhaps we need some more discussion on fatalism. Knowing that whatever arises does so because of conditions is not fatalistic as I see it. Nina. op 02-03-2006 10:35 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > This modern fact plus the one that Westerners in general are not so > FATALISTIC, make that the Sujin-variant was never so popular in > Western countries. 56262 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) nilovg Dear Han and Tep, The term kilesa is used in the classification of the group of kilesas, as Han wrote. But, the term kilesa, defilement, can also be used in a general sense, meaning all akusala dhammas. With regard to this, it has been explained that there are three levels of defilements: In the Commentaries to the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma, and in the Subcommentaries, there are explanations of the elimination of the three levels of defilements, namely, the anusaya kilesa (latent tendencies), the pariyuììhåna kilesa (arising with the akusala citta) and the vítikkama kilesa (transgression, misconduct). I translated from Thai: We read in the ³Sumaògalavilåsiní², the Commentary to the Dígha Nikåya, in the Commentary to the ³Net of Views² (Brahmajålasutta), under the section on Síla: ³In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. He taught in the first Piìaka the temporary elimination of defilements and in the other two Piìakas he taught (respectively) the elimination of defilements by suppression and by complete cutting off. The abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) which are akusala kamma he taught in the first Piìaka, the abandoning of the corruptions which are craving (taùhå) and wrong view (diììhi) he taught (respectively) in the other two Piìakas.² We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the threefold training and the three levels of defilements: ³In the Vinaya-Piìaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama kilesa); in the Suttanta-Piìaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions (defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyuììhåna kilesa ); in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Piìaka there is a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and extirping by the Path. In the first Piìaka the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption of craving and wrong views...² Nina. 56263 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 3:26am Subject: Conditions, "Randomness", and Control upasaka_howard Hi, all - Some thoughts of mine: There are, according to the Buddha, several categories of sources for one's experience. Because these include several that are not one's own kamma, one does not have (total) control over one's experience, and in that sense (only!) there is an element of "randomness" to what arises in one's mindstream. However, because one's own kamma *is* included among these categories, one *does* have some influence over one's experience, very important influence in some cases - the realm of rebirth being an example. Because much of what comes to one is independent of one's past and present actions and volition, there is an interesting complexity to our experience. We are constantly facing new and different conditions, and though the pattern of our intentions may have not changed, the new conditions in concert with our intentions can lead to novel actions. Thus action is multiply conditioned. If one forgets about all the many conditions occuring other than cetana, one is likely to adopt the false view of kamma being all-determinative, which can lead either to the view "I can achieve anything I wish" or the opposite view "I have no control, because what happens now is determined by my past actions." On the other hand, if one forgets that kamma is a powerful factor, one is prone to adopt the false view that "I have no control at all (no influence), because what happens now is entirely determined by conditions other than kamma." A disclaimer to head off ambushers at the pass, to use old western movie terminology(LOL): Every use of "I", "mine", "my", "one", or "ones's" in the foregoing should be set off in double quotes. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56264 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:38am Subject: Re: What is Good Lay Buddhist Praxis ??? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > ... Hallo Ven. Samahita, all Friends: A fine friend asked me this good question: Venerable Bhikkhu Samahita: Please give a dhamma lesson for a layperson (me) who works, watches his daughters, has little money/time for retreats, and just wants to be a good layperson Buddhist. Thank You ____________________________________________________________________ OK! Well then acute attention to these 4 simple points is quite advantageous: 1: Keep the precepts completely clean. 2: Meditate 45 min every morning 5-6 am. 3: Study the Sutta Pitaka thoroughly. 4: Support the Sangha regularly. A simple but a good advice! Good for all layperson Buddhists all over the world, but some remarks on the fourth point, "4: Support the Sangha regularly" Most Buddhists in Western countries don't have a 'Sangha' in the meaning of (a loose definition of course) 'a group of monks'. In most cases there is no monk at all less than (for example) 100 km from where the Theravadin lives. Sometimes group of laypersons doing weekly (vipassana-) meditation together, call themselves a sangha; according the orthodoxy not correct, but: better than nothing. So the question is: how to translate the fourth advice to such a situation? Some ideas: - Giving dana to the (layperson-) teachter of such a meditation group. - Visiting a Theravada Temple at least once a year - Trying to make (and of course support) a local organization that ressembles most as possible a sangha Of course the big underlying question is: is being a Buddhist and is a Sangha possible without monks? My personal answer is: yes; not because I do prefer it but because I think the situation in Western countries which very few (Theravada) monks will continue; and I repeat: better than nothing. Another guess is that groups of bhikkhunis arise in Western countries, that more possible than groups of bhikkhus. Metta Joop 56265 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 11:06am Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Hallo Nina, all You said: "Hallo Joop, perhaps we need some more discussion on fatalism. Knowing that whatever arises does so because of conditions is not fatalistic as I see it. Nina. " A nice way of defending Ken. Of course a caricature of the fatalistic Eastern versus the will- power of the Western Buddhist, but - already a famous expression - he asked for it. I think a better point of discussion is my statement: "a person who thinks he or she can make moral and spiritual decisions and tries to practice them, has NOT perse more atta-belief than one who waits till conditions do their work." This combined with your comment of some days ago - which was not helpful to Christine's sadness at all - in #56184: "yes, that is so helpful, I think: Always those good reminders how much we are entangled in this self idea. It appears before we realize it." Metta Joop 56266 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, "Randomness", and Control TGrand458@... Hi Howard A few comments. First of all the topics title parts -- "randomness and control" in my view are just self-view-projections. Conditionality precludes both in my view. In a message dated 3/2/2006 9:35:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, all - Some thoughts of mine: There are, according to the Buddha, several categories of sources for one's experience. Because these include several that are not one's own kamma, one does not have (total) control over one's experience, and in that sense (only!) there is an element of "randomness" to what arises TG: It depends on the point of view I guess. For... there is kamma, but it is just a "neutral condition" also...not "my own." in one's mindstream. However, because one's own kamma *is* included among these categories, one *does* have some influence over one's experience, very important influence in some cases - the realm of rebirth being an example. TG: If knowledge, memory, effort, etc are considered "bare conditions"...arising due to "bare causes," then the volition, energy, etc that conjoin in an effort to develop wholesome states are "bare results" of "bare conditions" and not "willed direction." Do "we" decide to be reborn in a Pure Land, for example ... or is it conditions that generate that outcome...conditions of suffering, of the Buddha's teaching, of knowing about death, etc. Because much of what comes to one is independent of one's past and present actions and volition, there is an interesting complexity to our experience. We are constantly facing new and different conditions, and though the pattern of our intentions may have not changed, the new conditions in concert with our intentions can lead to novel actions. Thus action is multiply conditioned. TG: I would say that all conditions are a conditional realm. Breaking it down into "individual generated" and "non-individual generated" is ultimately wrong, but occasionally needed for purposes of communication. All conditions, physical and psychological, have an accumulative affect on the body/mind and their effect is in accordance to the significance of such contacts. If one forgets about all the many conditions occuring other than cetana, one is likely to adopt the false view of kamma being all-determinative, which can lead either to the view "I can achieve anything I wish" or the opposite view "I have no control, because what happens now is determined by my past actions." On the other hand, if one forgets that kamma is a powerful factor, one is prone to adopt the false view that "I have no control at all (no influence), because what happens now is entirely determined by conditions other than kamma." TG: I think my above comments dealt with this. But would ask how you would view kamma as not being a "condition."? Or if that's a misreading... why would someone who thought that there was no-control because all was due to conditions ... think that kamma didn't belong in that category? Wouldn't such a person also think that Kamma is just conditions? In such a case, wouldn't the idea of no-control because all is due to conditions include kamma? You say that the ideas "I can achieve anything I wish" and "I have no control" are opposites. I guess I'd agree as long as its understood that "self view" and "conditionality insight" are opposites. All this boils down to is the perspective being addressed. I am addressing it from "actuality" point of view; and you are probably addressing it from a practical common sense point of view. A disclaimer to head off ambushers at the pass, to use old western movie terminology(LOL): Every use of "I", "mine", "my", "one", or "ones's" in the foregoing should be set off in double quotes. With metta, Howard TG 56267 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, "Randomness", and Control upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/2/06 2:36:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > A few comments. First of all the topics title parts -- "randomness and > control" in my view are just self-view-projections. -------------------------------------- Howard: Not as I use the terminology. By "control" or (better) "influence" I mean volition that has effect. I KNOW there is no personal self or any other "self" in anything, which makes the comments in the rest of your post irrelevant to the meaning of what I posted. Yes, kamma is a condition. It is intention/volition. I was contrasting kamma with other conditions. Control/influence pertains to intention. It has nothing to do with an alleged self. Some folks have that view. I do not, and I'm not putting it forward. All conditions, including intention, are impersonal because there is no self of any sort to be found anywhere. However, it is NOT meaningless to distinguish between "my kamma" and "your kamma". Our mindstreams are not one and the same are they? No-self does not mean no distinctions. Hardness is not warmth, and "your" mindstates are not "mine". All phenomena are empty of self in that none of them is a thing-in-itself but it is an utterly dependent aspect of the interconnected whole. The "world" is neither a multitude of independent, self-existent realities nor a homogeneous monolith. ------------------------------------- Conditionality precludes > both in my view. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Randomness and control, as I use the words, both pertain to cetana, the first to its absence and the second to its presence. ======================= With metta, Howard 56268 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, "Randomness", and Control TGrand458@... Hi Howard What a difference "a post" makes. LOL Really like the sound of what you posted below. I would say though, and you'd perhaps agree, that "your" and "my" kamma are indeed intertwined to some extent! But of course not the same, or completely different. TG In a message dated 3/2/2006 1:54:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Not as I use the terminology. By "control" or (better) "influence" I mean volition that has effect. I KNOW there is no personal self or any other "self" in anything, which makes the comments in the rest of your post irrelevant to the meaning of what I posted. Yes, kamma is a condition. It is intention/volition. I was contrasting kamma with other conditions. Control/influence pertains to intention. It has nothing to do with an alleged self. Some folks have that view. I do not, and I'm not putting it forward. All conditions, including intention, are impersonal because there is no self of any sort to be found anywhere. However, it is NOT meaningless to distinguish between "my kamma" and "your kamma". Our mindstreams are not one and the same are they? No-self does not mean no distinctions. Hardness is not warmth, and "your" mindstates are not "mine". All phenomena are empty of self in that none of them is a thing-in-itself but it is an utterly dependent aspect of the interconnected whole. The "world" is neither a multitude of independent, self-existent realities nor a homogeneous monolith. ------------------------------------- 56269 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, "Randomness", and Control upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/2/06 4:13:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > What a difference "a post" makes. LOL Really like the sound of what you > posted below. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, TG. I appreciate your writing back! ---------------------------------- I would say though, and you'd perhaps agree, that "your" and > > "my" kamma are indeed intertwined to some extent! > ---------------------------------- Howard: I agree entirely! :-) --------------------------------- But of course not the same, > > or completely different. > > TG > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56270 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 858 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: Pathavii kasi.na has been discussed. After achieving 5th ruupa jhaana with pathavii kasi.na this again has to be exercised to master this 5th ruupa jhaana as explained in previous posts. There are 10 kasi.na kamma.t.thaana. They are 1. pathavii kasi.na (earth circle) 2. tejo kasi.na (fire) 3. apo kasi.na (water) 4. vaayo kasi.na (wind) [4 element kasi.na] 5. niila kasi.na (blue) [I would rather follow it as dark colour] 6. piita kasi.na (yellow) 7. lohita kasi.na (red) 8. odaata kasi.na (white) [ 4 colour kasi.na] 9. aaloka kasi.na (light) 10.aakaasa kasi.na (space) All these have three different bhaavanaas or 3 cultivations. They are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation of good mind) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximate cultivation to absorption) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation to absorption) The first two are javana cittas. They are kusala cittas. They are kaama kusala cittas. They are kaamaavacara mahaakusala cittas. They are kaamaavacara mahaakusala bhaavanaa kusala cittas. They both are forerunners of appanaa bhaavanaa or absorptive cultivation or jhaana. All 10 kasi.na kamma.t.thaana can give rise to all these three bhaavanaas. When each bhaavanaa is arising the samaadhi that arises has the same name as the bhaavanaa. That is parikamma samaadhi, upacaara samaadhi, and appanaa samaadhi. When we concentrate or focus on cetasika one-pointedness or ekaggataa it is said samaadhi. When we focus on the mind that is citta and its activity we say it as bhaavanaa. All these 10 kasi.nas can give rise to three separate objects. They are 1. parikamma nimitta (preparatory sign) 2. uggaha nimitta (mental image/learning sign) 3. pa.tibhaaga nimitta (counter image/serene sign) These three objects or aaramma.nas are the aaramma.na or objects of their specific bhaavanaas, which again are cittas. All bhaavanaa cittas arise at hadaya-vatthu or heart-base as material support. Bhaavanaas are as I said cittas. Cittas have mental factors that associated with them. These mental factors help citta's function, whose overall action have to depend on mental factors. Citta arises with cetasikas at the same time. They vanish together at the same time. They take the same object. And they both arise at the same vatthu, here in bhaavanaa matters they arise at heart-base or hadaya vatthu. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56271 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:42am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 860 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: At this stage the practitioner is proficient in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th ruupa jhaana and pathavii-to-aakaasa kasi.na. This has to be practised repeatedly. When proficient it will be ready to step up to aruupa jhaana. To attain aruupa jhaana is to practise ruupa jhaana at 5th stage again and retrospect the whole ruupa jhaana again and again so that the danger of ruupa jhaana can well be recognised. Before this stage the practitioner has to practise to the proficient level. When proficient, he or she will be able to expand the object and collapse the object at own will. When collapse it comes to the original size 24 inches to 27 inches and it may well shrink smaller than 24 inches. When expand he or she has to be able to expand the object endlessly or limitlessly or boundlessly. When expand there is no other thing but only kasi.na nimitta as object and this nimitta fills the whole universe. This has to be practised again and again to become proficient. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56272 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 859 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: I hope I have clearly presented about kasi.na kamma.t.thaana with the example earth-kasi.na or pathavii kasi.na. And I have explained overall view on kasi.na and their bhaavanaas or cultivation. In this post some preparation of other 9 kasi.na will be explained. 1. pathavii (earth) 2. tejo (fire) 3. apo (water) 4. vaayo (wind) 5. niila (blue/brown/dark colour) 6. piita (yellow) 7. lohita (red) 8. odaata (white) 9. aaloka (light) 10.aakaasa (space) 1. pathavii kasi.na (earth kasina) This has been explained. Initial object is visual object which is the colour of earth-substance. For perfected people naked earth or natural earth can be used as the object for pathavii kasi.na. But for most people it is more suitable to have a disc filled with earth- substance, which has the colour of dawn (before sunrise). The disc has to be circular with a diameter of 24 to 27 inches. The distance from eyes has to be not too near and not too far; say about 2 feet to 3 feet. 2. tejo kasi.na (fire kasi.na) Naked flame can be the object of tejo kasi.na if the person to practise is well perfected person. But for general use it is better to have a well prepared disc. It can be indoor or outdoor. Outdoor setting may be better if there is little disturbance. Make a fire with wood and there should have flames. The disc has to be 24 to 27 inches and in circular form. The margin should be painted with jet-black and there has to be space. Through this space the flames of fire has to be looked at. Close or far depend on the temperature bearable. What is important is to get a good sign of parikamma or preparatory sign. Indoor setting can be made with candle light. 3. apo kasi.ma (water kasi.na) Like others, natural water can be used as the object for water kasi.na. But for average person it is better to have prepared. There are running water and stilling water. Running water can be outdoor setting; like river, stream. Stilling water can also be outdoor like in case of pond and lake. Indoor setting is better to have well calm water surface. The disc has to have no special colour. Because the colour would attrack and it might become colour kasi.na rather than water kasi.na. 24 to 27 inches wide mouth container has to be filled with clear water. 4. vaayo kasi.na (wind kasi.na) Like others, natural movement of trees when in breezing or windy can be the object for wind kasi.na or vaayo kasi.na. But preparation is better for an average person. Make a circle to look through. The margin has to be painted with black. Look at the moving things in the circle. 5. niila kasi.na (blue/brwon/dark colour) The translators including PTS translate as blue. I have seen one devotee translates it as green. Burmese Sayadaws all preach as brown. I prefer brown rather than blue. When I asked Sayadaws some say that there are Tibet monks who wear blue robe. They answered this because I asked 'I know only yellow, red, brown robe that monks wear and white robe is also worn by some devotee. All these are colour kasi.na. Are there anyone who wear blue robe?'. Anyway the usage is for darkening, hiding and so on. So it is dark colour. Colours: Primary colours are 1. red, 2. yellow, 3. blue Red is the brightest. Blue is the darkest. Yellow is in the middle. Secondary colours are 1. orange (red+yellow), 2. green(yellow+blue) and 3. violet (red+blue) Among these 6 colours red, orange, yellow are in brighter side and green blue and violet are in darker side. So niila may be green, blue, violet. The blue is in the middle and it is the darkest. Brown is a bit of mixture of red and violet or blue. So brown is blue with a tint of red. Total darkness may cover arising of a good sign. So my logic is that a bit brightness is added to blue to get a good sign. Anyway this is my logic and any dark color can be niila kasi.na. So they are brown, purple, violet, indigo, black, blue, blue-black, green, dark-green and any dark colour. The circle can be 24 to 27 inches and it has to be covered with cloth with dark colour. 6. piita kasi.na (yellow kasina) The same as above but the colour is yellow. 7. lohita kasi.na (red kasina) 8. odaata kasi.na (white kasina) 9. aaloka kasi.na (light kasina) This is light spot. Make a dark room. Make a hole on one of the wall. Adjust that the light spot has the diameter of 24 to 27 inches. Put a light source on other side of the room. The light will come in through the hole and will make a light spot on the floor. Or may be made to appear on the wall with projector. The thing is that the spot must have light and the surrounding must have darkness. 10. aakaasa kasi.na (space kasi.na) This circle is also as in case of vaayo kasi.na. But in the middle there has to be voided anything visible. So there will be a space. The margin should have painted with black or other indistinct colour not to attract Three signs three bhaavanaas three samaadhis are the same. The only difference is nimitta. When finish with pathavii kasi.na it has to be proficient and should have been mastered. And then try to achieve all 5 ruupa jhaana with these other 9 kasi.nas. At this stage the practitioner is proficient in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th ruupa jhaana and pathavii-to-aakaasa kasi.na. This has to be practised repeatedly. When proficient it will be ready to step up to aruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56273 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:46am Subject: Re: Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > DHAMMA IS FOREVER > > > > Dhamma is forever there, we are not forever there. > > We die now and then, Dhamma shine now and then. > > We are not us while Dhamma are Dhamma. > > Meeting is leaving soon. > > > > HTOO NAING (28.02.06) > > > > In neither a month that I'm in this mailing list, I've learnt > very many things from you.Your posting were always very > profitable,if not amazing. > I'm really sorry you are leaving. > Thank you for having spread so much knowledge. > > Cerini Pablo --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Cerini Pablo, Thanks for your kind words. I am trying to my best in terms of benefiting people as many as I can access. I will still be posting whenever I can. With regards, Htoo Naing 56274 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:18pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 862 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When 1st aruupa jhaana developed this has to be exercised to become proficient. Again this is done through paccavekkhana ~naana or the knowledge of retrospection or inspection back or checking back. There finds that this boundless space is quite close to boundless pathavii (in case of pathavii kasi.na) and will be brought back to 5th ruupa jhaana and this again might fall back down to 1st jhaana or even to kaama plane. To avoid this the object boundless space has to be departed. As the danger resides in the boundless space the practitioner starts to dispassionate on the object boundless space. When the object is not directed then the citta which is the 1st aruupa jhaana is directed as an object. When this happen there seems that there are numerous cittas arising one after another taking the boundless space. This is like a man looking his footprints on a beach when he walk backward. He see the footprints. As sand is boundless footprints are also boundless. Like this as '.thaana', which is boundless space is limitless then '.thaanii', which is 1st aruupa jhaana is also limitless. When this is seen then there arise 2nd aruupa jhaana citta arises. Five masteries have to be practised repeatedly so that the practitioner become proficient in 2nd aruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56275 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:19pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 863 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When paccavekkhana or retrospection is done there finds that 2nd aruupa jhaana which is called vinnaanancayatana aruupa jhaana also has weakness. That weakness is that this object vinnaana can at any time call back to aakaasanancayatana object the space. As akasa or space is boundless the citta that takes the space is also limitless. So it is limitless cittas or limitless vinnaana. That is vinnaana-ananta and it is aayatana for 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. So it is called vinnaanancaayatana aruupa jhaana. Because of the weakness this object vinnaanancayatana or 1st aruupa citta is started to dispassionated. When there is total dispassion and there is less and less attachment to 1st aruupa jhaana citta there left nothing as object. That is it is nothingness that serves as an object for the citta. That citta is a new citta. This citta is the third aruupa jhaana citta. Its object is nothingness. In Paa.li 'something' is called 'ki~nci' and 'not something' or 'no thing' or 'nothing' is called 'aaki~nci'. So the object cam be called as aakincinnaayatana (aakinci+ananta+ayatana). Five masteries again have to practise so that proficiency arises in handling these aruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56276 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 1:16pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 861 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 5th ruupa jhaana has the object pa.tibhaaga nimitta. The 5th ruupa jhaana means 5th ruupa-kusala cittas. These cittas take the object pa.tibhaaga nimitta. This nimitta object can be shrunk and can be expanded with practice. When this practice become under mastery then it is possible to expand the object covering the whole universe, which is limitless and endless. When retrospect there are just 2 jhaana factors and they are upekkhaa vedanaa or equanimity and ekaggataa or one-pointedness. They are subtle and nothing is wrong with them. But the problem is that all these ruupa jhaana whatever they are strong they all are based on ruupa. Even in this 5th ruupa jhaana the cittas have to depend on ruupa. This may draw back to 4th ruupa jhaana where there arise sukha and trhen down to 3rd with piiti, 2nd with vicaara, 1st with vitakka and finally kaama-vitakka will draw back to sensuous plane. In this way the object is started to be dispassionated and the practitioner starts to depart from the object nimitta. When the object has been spread all over the universe and it is limitless after devoiding of this nimitta then there arise another nimitta, which is space just created by absence of that cover on the whole universe. Initially the universe which is covered with nimitta like pathavii nimitta is endless and limitless. When this pathavii is voided then there left nothing and in this there arise space, which is not of the space of the world but the space of mental image. It is limitless. There is upekkhaa and ekaggataa. There is no hindrances. As soon as aakaasa arises this aakaasa or space is boundless as in case of boundless pathavii nimitta of 5th ruupa jhaana. But at this time there is no hint of ruupa at all. All dhamma here are just naama dhamma and there is no ruupa dhamma invloved. As the space or aakaasa is limitless it is called aakaasa-ananta. This space is aayatana for citta and so this aayatana which is space is called aakaasa-ananta-aayatana or aakaasana~ncaayatana. The jhaana which is aruupa jhaana here is called aakaasana~ncaayatana aruupa jhaana or the aruupa jhaana of boundless space. This is the 1st aruupa jhaana. Cittas are 1st aruupa jhaana-kusala cittas. The object is boundless space, which is a nimitta or pannatti. Even though it is aruupa jhaana this jhaana has to depend on hadaya vatthu or heart base as the being who is practising is being in pa~ncavokaara bhuumi or beings with 5 khandhaa. If it is catuvokaara bhuumi being then there is no hadaya ruupa and there are only naama dhamma. This 1st aruupa jhaana again has to be practised with 5 vasii and this will lead to mastery in 1st aruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56277 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Thank you for all the Dhamma you gave. I really appreciated dialogues with > you.Perhaps you may come back after a while. > Nina. > op 01-03-2006 18:12 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > I am leaving. Regarding Mahaajanakka it is one of 10 life stories of > > Bodhisatta. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, I must thank you and I really thank you. I think my English words diffused through reading your writing. You may or may not notice that my English was very poor. I do not know defilement, fetter, base, enlightenment, path, fruit and many other words even though I can understand them in my language of Burmese (Myanmar) and also in some Paa.li. If I have a chance to right on Buddhism for publication I would try to be a good writer like yourself. I read a book written by A Sujin and translated by you in 2003. Before that I think I read cetasikas but I did not know or remember or note who was the writer. I read mainly focused on wording that is Paali to English. I still do not have accustomed to some English words like Gradual Saying, Kindred Saying and so on. But as soon as it is said Majjhima Nikaaya, Diigha Nikaaya, Sampayutta Nikaaya and so on I know them. Discussion-wise you are much much more mature than me. And you do not saying without evidence. Which is what I did and still I am doing this that is I say solidly and strongly without quoting any references. Once Tep in earlier stage of our friendship he said that my posts were nice and very beneficial or equivalent words. But the only thing that I had been lacking was I did not quote anything and I did not reveal any references, which is the style of west. Recently (a year ago) there was an event of Buddhists meeting somewhere in the west. The intelligent participents said that 'Is it all right that learned Buddhist monks go to the west for PhD degree, in which the assessors and provers are not truely know like these scholar monks. Once I wrote to a professor and enquired about his belief. He admited that he became a Buddhist. But when I went a bit deeper enquiry he sincerely said that he had been doing samatha, which is tranquility meditation. He had written on the relationship between four ariya's noble truths and dependent origination as his doctorate degree. Like him there are many other scholars who did research in Buddhist studies. When I touched a bit on them they are truely Theravaada. Initially I read Mahaayaana texts as there was not found on Theravaada. When I first found your book on 'Metta' 'Loving Kindness' I admired you most and I still admire and will be doing the same in future. I must apologise for my loose words, which sounded like insinuating words (as your friend or something Amara would say) that directed to you when you say about something crashed in the kitchen. I gave some comment as if I was discussing on dhamma. My actual intention was to discuss dhamma and to reveal our understanding on dhamma. But when the message appear on the list I re-read it several times and I felt a bit shame that I seemed attacking you, in which case you did not respond anything but just with patience or khantii, which is very good. Anyway you are my most admired writer and you help me a lot in terms of dhamma and English writing. I have a heading to publish as a book as a hard copy. But there is no content yet there inside that is it is my hypothetical book in my mind. I am thinking how to include as many dhamma as possible in that book. Dhamma Thread is a bit repeated several time. If I have to edit it by myself I will not finish it smoothly as the contents are complex and complicated. Anyway I have been thinking to become a writer like you not for the reason of fame but for the reason to share dhamma with fellow Buddhists. Sarah know me very well who I am. I just tried to breed a pen name and when it grows I may share dhamma through that name. If there is another chance I may come back. But I do not think it will. Anyway Sarah may help me regarding my posting. Even though I am leaving there are many friends here and they will be discussing dhamma for the benefits of all members. They are good at dhamma and they do have a good source of evidence. Examples are Tep and U Han Tun. Rob M, Sukin, Ken H, Ken O, Robert Kirkpatrick, Larry, Sarah, Jon, Matheesha, and many others are very good at dhamma. I have learned a lot from them. You may or may not notice that sometimes I sit on the fence because I love both sides in terms of their dhamma maturity even though one might hold wrong fact. Well, DSGs. I love you all and I have learned a lot a lot from you all. I would like to thank Sukin, who was the first person to introduce me with DSG. As soon as I joined Sarah warmly welcome me and asked about some of my backgrounds. I must say I am still in my thirties. I am a man even though these are pannatti at least these facts may help the readers in some way or another. One of my frinds said that I am saying in my thirties frequently. So I must be in my late thirties. I just laughed. Just Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Soon after my joining in I received over 100 mails in my box and I was shocked. I temporarily stop reading. I tried to write something but very poorly. Sukin and Sarah encouraged me a lot that my posts were good, which I do not believe. But I tried a lot and learned a lot. Because of this my writing on dhamma seemed better and better (He he he that is what I think and not an absolute fact). My original group is triplegem. I did not try to dominate any site or group. But I do care to share my understanding to fellow dhamma friends and I also learned from them at the same time. Thank you very much Nina (and DSGs) and not the least to Sarah and Jon who actively working on dhamma messages and help people a lot with dhamma matters. Sarah is also good to make communication with Bhikkhu Bodhi and correspondence and posted at DSG again. I left a person to thank. She is Connie. Very nice lady. Creative. Alert. Active. Lively. Sincere. Connie, could you please send a message to my dear that I do appreciate all dhamma studies and I do benefit from the site so that it can be anumodanaed ?(He He He). May you all be filled with joy in dhamma studies here at DSG. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 56278 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 6:47am Subject: Seeing Eye and Healing Mind (02.03.06) htootintnaing Seeing Eye and Healing Mind The eye cannot see the eye, yet it sees its sight. The sight cannot free the sight, yet it frees its existence. The mind cannot deal the mind, yet it deals its right. The right cannot heal the right, yet it heals its might. HTOO NAING (02.03.06) PS: This poem is for recent attacker/s. How can he/she/they understand such deep poem? Anyone who wants to know the meaning behind this poem can write to me off-list. I will be happy to explain. 56279 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? kenhowardau Hi Joop, Thanks for giving me the facts (as you see them) on Abhidhamma in the West. One point that surprised me was "Abhidhamma . . . is seen as a useful frame of reference for understanding the meditation practice . . . " ---------- My impression has been the opposite: Abhidhamma is not useful to formalised meditation practice; in fact, it is something of an obstacle. John Bullitt, who manages Access To Insight, says he has left Abhidhamma out of that site for that very reason. (I think I can find the quote if you want it.) ------------------ <. . .> J: > I give you one opinion as an extra: a person who thinks he or she can make moral and spiritual decisons and tries to practice them, has NOT perse more atta-belief than one who (in my eyes in a fatalistic way) waits till conditions do their work. ------------------- When you say, "waits till conditions do their work," you might be thinking of, "Courage, patience and good cheer" - the unofficial DSG slogan. To you (and to many others) that must imply, "Sit around twiddling your thumbs and let conditions to do their work." But it shouldn't imply that at all. Ultimately, courage, patience and good cheer are the workings of the conditioned dhamma, panna (right understanding). Ultimately, it is only a fleeting, momentary, dhamma that has those attributes - the idea of a person who has them is an illusion (pannatti). Ultimate reality is profoundly difficult to see, but it exists now in the present moment: there is no other reality. And so the study of it is the most important study of all. What a shame it is mistaken for "doing nothing til conditions do their work." :-) Ken H 56280 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 5:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (i) buddhistmedi... Dear Han, Nina and Htoo - I truly appreciate your valuable explanations of the three dhamma terms (akusala, kilesa, and nivarana). Htoo's help provides the basic ideas. Han's explanation extends beyond the basic knowledge and gives detailed background information. Nina's help neatly explains the three levels of kilesa and relate them to akusala. >Htoo (#56258): >There is no overlapping in 10 kilesa but in niivara.na there are 7 dhammas. These dhammas in niivara.na are : 1. lobha (kilesa); 2. dosa (kilesa); 3. thina (kilesa); 4. middha; 5. uddhacca(kilesa); 6. kukkucca;7. viicikicchaa (kilesa). There are 10 kilesaa: 1. lobha (nivara.na); 2. dosa (niivara.na); 3. moha; 4. maana; 5. di.t.thi; 6. viicikicchaa (niivara.na); 7. thina (niivara.na); 8. uddhacca (niivara.na); 9. ahirika; 10.anottappa. >Kilesa and niivara.na are not equal. >Citta itself is very very pure (100%). Because of kilesa citta become akusala cittas. >Citta and cetasikas cannot be separated as in case of water and milk. So when we say akusala it is both citta and cetasika. ........................ >Han(#56252): >... if you compare the two groups {Group I. Five niivaranas: (i) kaamacchanda = sense-desire;.. (ii) vyaapaada = ill-will;.. (iii) thina- middha = sloth and torpor; .. (iv) uddhacca-kukkucca = restlessness and brooding or worry; ..(v) vicikicchaa = skeptical doubt or perplexity. Group II. Four aasavas: (i) kaamaasava = attachment to sensual pleasure in the sense-sphere; ..(ii) bhavaasava = attachmnent to ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana as well as to the existence in the ruupa planes and aruupa planes;...(iii) ditthaasava = 62 kinds of false views; ..(iv) avijjaasava = ignorance with regard to the four Noble Truths, past life, future life, both past and future lives, and the Law of Dependent Origination.} , except the similarity between kaamacchanda and kaamaasava, the rest of the factors of the two groups are different in their functions and their underlying cetasikas and cittas. > (quoted Vism.:) 10 defilements, thus called because they are themselves defiled, and because they defile the mental factors associated with them. They are: (1) greed(lobha), (2) hate (dosa), (3) delusion (moha), (4) conceit (mána), (5) speculative views (ditthi), (6) skeptical doubt (vicikicchá), (7) mental torpor(thína), (8) restlessness (uddhacca); (9) shamelessness (ahirika), (10) lack of moral dread or unconscientiousness (anottappa). >.. lobha, dosa, thina, uddhacca and vicikicchaa are present in both groups. Middha and kukkucca present in niivaranas are absent in kilesas. Moha, mana, ditthi, ahirika, and anottappa present in kilesas are absent in niivaranas. Therefore, the two groups are "partially" the same. > Based on the definition of akusala and as the main ingredients of akusala (lobha, dosa, and moha) are present in kilesas, it must be said that kilesas are in fact akusala dhammas. ........................ >Nina (#56262): > ... the term kilesa, defilement, can also be used in a general sense, meaning all akusala dhammas. > ... (the Buddha) taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements (in the Vinaya), ...the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, .. the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. [from the Commentaries] > In the Vinaya-Piìaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, ...in the Suttanta-Piìaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions(defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, ... in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is meant .. Tep: Thank you all, very much. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han and Tep, > The term kilesa is used in the classification of the group of kilesas, as > Han wrote. But, the term kilesa, defilement, can also be used in a general > sense, meaning all akusala dhammas. > With regard to this, it has been explained that there are three levels of > defilements: > In the Commentaries to the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma, and in the Subcommentaries, there are explanations of the elimination of the three levels of defilements, namely, the anusaya kilesa (latent tendencies), the pariyuììhåna kilesa (arising with the akusala citta) and the ví tikkama kilesa (transgression, misconduct). > I translated from Thai: > (snipped) 56281 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 5:33pm Subject: Re: Bye Bye.. Why? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Your farewell message was very sincere. You talked about your language deficiency, but it is a minor thing that should not be compared to your vast knowledge of Buddhism, depth of understanding of the Teachings, and most of all your great energy and saddha. Your many contributions to DSG are amazing; I have been used to seeing your posters for so long that it is almost unbelievable that you will soon "quit" it all. I still can't understand why you have to leave. Follow Nina's advice : go away for a while, and come back again (like I did). May you always be filled with dhamma joy -- wherever you are. Sincerely, Tep, your friend. ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo, > > Thank you for all the Dhamma you gave. I really appreciated > dialogues with > > you.Perhaps you may come back after a while. > > Nina. > > op 01-03-2006 18:12 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@: > > > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > > > I am leaving. Regarding Mahaajanakka it is one of 10 life stories > of > > > Bodhisatta. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Nina, > > I must thank you and I really thank you. I think my English words > diffused through reading your writing. You may or may not notice that > my English was very poor. I do not know defilement, fetter, base, > enlightenment, path, fruit and many other words even though I can > understand them in my language of Burmese (Myanmar) and also in some > Paa.li. If I have a chance to right on Buddhism for publication I > would try to be a good writer like yourself. I read a book written by > A Sujin and translated by you in 2003. Before that I think I read > cetasikas but I did not know or remember or note who was the writer. I > read mainly focused on wording that is Paali to English. I still do > not have accustomed to some English words like Gradual Saying, Kindred > Saying and so on. But as soon as it is said Majjhima Nikaaya, Diigha > Nikaaya, Sampayutta Nikaaya and so on I know them. > > Discussion-wise you are much much more mature than me. And you do not > saying without evidence. Which is what I did and still I am doing this > that is I say solidly and strongly without quoting any references. > Once Tep in earlier stage of our friendship he said that my posts were > nice and very beneficial or equivalent words. But the only thing that > I had been lacking was I did not quote anything and I did not reveal > any references, which is the style of west. Recently (a year ago) > there was an event of Buddhists meeting somewhere in the west. The > intelligent participents said that 'Is it all right that learned > Buddhist monks go to the west for PhD degree, in which the assessors > and provers are not truely know like these scholar monks. > > Once I wrote to a professor and enquired about his belief. He admited > that he became a Buddhist. But when I went a bit deeper enquiry he > sincerely said that he had been doing samatha, which is tranquility > meditation. He had written on the relationship between four ariya's > noble truths and dependent origination as his doctorate degree. Like > him there are many other scholars who did research in Buddhist studies. > When I touched a bit on them they are truely Theravaada. Initially I > read Mahaayaana texts as there was not found on Theravaada. When I > first found your book on 'Metta' 'Loving Kindness' I admired you most > and I still admire and will be doing the same in future. > > I must apologise for my loose words, which sounded like insinuating > words (as your friend or something Amara would say) that directed to > you when you say about something crashed in the kitchen. I gave some > comment as if I was discussing on dhamma. My actual intention was to > discuss dhamma and to reveal our understanding on dhamma. But when the > message appear on the list I re-read it several times and I felt a bit > shame that I seemed attacking you, in which case you did not respond > anything but just with patience or khantii, which is very good. Anyway > you are my most admired writer and you help me a lot in terms of > dhamma and English writing. > > I have a heading to publish as a book as a hard copy. But there is no > content yet there inside that is it is my hypothetical book in my mind. > I am thinking how to include as many dhamma as possible in that book. > Dhamma Thread is a bit repeated several time. If I have to edit it by > myself I will not finish it smoothly as the contents are complex and > complicated. Anyway I have been thinking to become a writer like you > not for the reason of fame but for the reason to share dhamma with > fellow Buddhists. Sarah know me very well who I am. I just tried to > breed a pen name and when it grows I may share dhamma through that > name. If there is another chance I may come back. But I do not think > it will. Anyway Sarah may help me regarding my posting. > > Even though I am leaving there are many friends here and they will be > discussing dhamma for the benefits of all members. They are good at > dhamma and they do have a good source of evidence. Examples are Tep > and U Han Tun. Rob M, Sukin, Ken H, Ken O, Robert Kirkpatrick, Larry, > Sarah, Jon, Matheesha, and many others are very good at dhamma. I have > learned a lot from them. You may or may not notice that sometimes I > sit on the fence because I love both sides in terms of their dhamma > maturity even though one might hold wrong fact. > > Well, DSGs. I love you all and I have learned a lot a lot from you all. > I would like to thank Sukin, who was the first person to introduce me > with DSG. As soon as I joined Sarah warmly welcome me and asked about > some of my backgrounds. I must say I am still in my thirties. I am a > man even though these are pannatti at least these facts may help the > readers in some way or another. One of my frinds said that I am saying > in my thirties frequently. So I must be in my late thirties. I just > laughed. Just Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. > > Soon after my joining in I received over 100 mails in my box and I was > shocked. I temporarily stop reading. I tried to write something but > very poorly. Sukin and Sarah encouraged me a lot that my posts were > good, which I do not believe. But I tried a lot and learned a lot. > Because of this my writing on dhamma seemed better and better (He he > he that is what I think and not an absolute fact). My original group > is triplegem. I did not try to dominate any site or group. But I do > care to share my understanding to fellow dhamma friends and I also > learned from them at the same time. > > Thank you very much Nina (and DSGs) and not the least to Sarah and Jon > who actively working on dhamma messages and help people a lot with > dhamma matters. Sarah is also good to make communication with Bhikkhu > Bodhi and correspondence and posted at DSG again. I left a person to > thank. She is Connie. Very nice lady. Creative. Alert. Active. Lively. > Sincere. Connie, could you please send a message to my dear that I do > appreciate all dhamma studies and I do benefit from the site so that > it can be anumodanaed ?(He He He). > > May you all be filled with joy in dhamma studies here at DSG. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 56282 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:39pm Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? kenhowardau Hi Howard, I have been writing about the tactic of putting up straw men as an unfair way of winning debating points. On the face of it, it is an unpleasant accusation to make, but in practice some of us make it quite often - and with varying degrees of social acceptability. It is not uncommon for DSG members to be accused of "putting up a smokescreen" "introducing a red herring" "erecting and knocking down a straw man" or, as you put it recently, "purposely being difficult." :-) If I am honest, I must accept that none of us would deliberately set out to do those things. None of us thinks, "I will put words into this person's mouth and prove them false. Then people will think I have won an argument!" The Dhamma we are discussing is so deep and difficult there will inevitably be misunderstandings. For example, I am sure the point you keep making about volition must go deeper than I give it credit for. And so I am conscious that my counter-arguments will annoy you (even though they are valid to me). But we are on different wavelengths, and annoying consequences are inevitable. Another example is where you wrote; ----- > I think that YOUR position is that we need to start with wisdom, and that there is no practice to be engaged in except study (though why you think that requires less volition than other practices is beyond me). ------ Can you understand how frustrating it is for me to read that? I do consider study to be a necessary factor for enlightenment, but I do not consider it to be an exception to the rule (that there is no control over dhammas). According to my understanding of anatta, there is no being that starts on, or travels along, or arrives at the end of, the path. There are only dhammas. When the dhamma known as panna takes a concept of conditioned reality (as described by the Buddha) as its object there is pariyatti - the earliest beginnings of the path. With that kind of understanding, how could I be talking about a deliberate, planned, pariyatti-practice (be it study or any other kind)? How could I consider Dhamma-study - or anything ultimately real - to be under my control? As I have said a million times (including very recently) if a person attempts Dhamma study with (a) the idea of control over pariyatti or (b) craving for results, then there is no real Dhamma study being done. So I don't see Dhamma-study as something I can deliberately "go out and do" and I don't see any reason for wanting reality to be different from the way it is. And then there was this example: ----------------- KH quoting K Sujin: > > "Because the > idea of self is there, so it's hopeless." > KH: > > You, of course, would disagree, but can you see why it might seem > that way? ........... Howard: > What exactly would I disagree with? That if the idea of self is present (i.e., if one is not yet a stream entrant), then the task is hopeless? ----------------- That took me completely by surprise. I had not for one minute expected you to interpret the quote that way. As I understood K Sujin, she was saying that hopelessness and despair are terms that have meaning only when there is the idea of self. When we are aware of reality as dhammas arising, performing their functions and falling away, hopelessness and despair do not come into it. They come into it only when there are thoughts of, "What about me? Where do I belong in all of this?" ----------- H: > You *bet* I disagree with that!!! If it were so, then all the original followers of the Buddha, and the Bodhisatta himself, would never have changed their worldling status. ----------- Quite so, but there is no argument on that score. It is a straw man. And I can see that you put it up quite innocently - by mistake. :-) Ken H 56283 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, "Randomness", and Control lbidd2 Hi Howard, You seem to be saying cetana controls or influences other dhammas. What do you mean by "influence"? Let's take the case of wanting a cup of tea, making it, and drinking it. Where's the influence? Larry 56284 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 11:11pm Subject: Mod note: Hacked email accounts dsgmods Dear Friends, --- htootintnaing wrote: > PS: This poem is for recent attacker/s. How can he/she/they understand > such deep poem? Anyone who wants to know the meaning behind this poem > can write to me off-list. I will be happy to explain. .... We'd like to elaborate a little here on Htoo's comments as it may affect others. Recently a hacker has accessed the yahoo accounts of a couple of members here and is sending messages and attachments using these accounts. It's easy to spot these as they don't have any date or time given (and of course the attachments don't make it the list anyway). As soon as we suspect this has happened to any accounts of members, we promptly put the accounts under moderation, so as to only filter through the genuine messages. Pls let us know off-list if you have any reason to suspect your address has been hacked so as to help us act straight away. If you happen to receive any of these hacker emails in your in box, DO NOT REPLY to them. As soon as someone replies, the full address is given. Our sympathies to those members affected. You may wish to temporarily use another account for mailing here, as Htoo is doing, if you wish to avoid the inevitable delays of moderated posts. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) p.s If you have questions or comments on this, off-list only, thanks! ============== 56285 From: "Pablo" Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 11:14pm Subject: about DSG cerini_pablo on DSG archive there are 50.000 + messages. i'm discovering that going through DSG it's like reading a very very good book about dhamma,but it's a book with 50000 + chapters. can you please stop posting for a couple of weeks please, to give newcomers the chance to read carefully the old messages ? :) i think i'll never be able to join a talk because when i manage to read every message of a thread, this thread is already become old. anyway you don't lose that much in not hearing my opinion :) cerini pablo p.s. very sad that h too is really going to leave ... 56286 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 11:18pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 388- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] In the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Book I, Chapter VIII) we read about groups of akusala dhammas and their eradication. We read, for example, about the floods: * "Monks, there are four floods. What four? The flood of sensual desire, the flood of becoming, the flood of view, the flood of nescience. These are the four. It is for the full comprehension, realization, wearing down and abandoning of these four floods that the ariyan eightfold way must be cultivated." * We read the same about other groups of defilements, such as the yokes, knots, latent tendencies, hindrances, the lower fetters and the higher fetters. We read at the end of this section, after the summing up of the higher fetters: * "... It is for the full comprehension, the realization, wearing down and abandoning of these five fetters of the higher sort that the ariyan eightfold way must be cultivated.... ... And how does a monk cultivate the ariyan eightfold way? Herein a monk cultivates right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, that ends in the restraint of lust, of hatred, of illusion; that plunges into the deathless, that has the deathless for its goal, that ends in the deathless; that flows to nibbåna, that slides to nibbåna, that tends to nibbåna. It is for the full comprehension, for the realization, for the wearing out and abandoning of these five fetters of the higher sort, monks, that this ariyan eightfold way must be cultivated." * Before there can be abandoning of akusala dhammas, there must be right understanding of all nåmas and rúpas of our daily life. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 56287 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 2, 2006 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] about DSG sarahprocter... Hi Pablo & all, --- Pablo wrote: > on DSG archive there are 50.000 + messages. > i'm discovering that going through DSG it's like > reading a very very good book about dhamma,but > it's a book with 50000 + chapters. ... S: :-)) Great to see your interest. RobM used to also refer to this 'good book'. He'd download it onto his hard drive and read it on his many plane trips. If anyone else would like to read it easily or download it, pls go to: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ .... > can you please stop posting for a couple of weeks please, > to give newcomers the chance to read carefully the old > messages ? > :) .... S: Are you sure you only need a couple of weeks? :). ... > i think i'll never be able to join a talk because when i manage > to read every message of a thread, this thread is already > become old. .... S: Pls just respond anytime to any message or thread you come across. As you say, if you wait til the end of the thread or until you're up to date, you'll wait forever. Just jump in - it's never too late:). ... > anyway you don't lose that much in not hearing my opinion :) > > cerini pablo > > p.s. very sad that h too is really going to leave ... .... S: I'd like to stress it has nothing to do with the hacker problems in case anyone wondered. I'm quite sure he'll find ways to post and keep us all updated. It may just take him a little time to sort out his affairs and work out his arrangements. Pablo, it's very nice to hear of your keen interest in the dhamma. I'd really like to know which old threads are of most interest to you and to read your comments on any old posts. We mentioned before you joined (I think) that if anyone would like a hard copy of A.Sujin's Abhidhamma book 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas',translated by Nina and recently published, to please let Sukin, Nina or I know off-list with your address. There's no cost involved. Metta, Sarah ======== 56288 From: "Htoo Naing" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 0:54am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 864 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The third aruupa jhaana or aakincinnaayatana aruupa jhaana is very subtle. That aruupa jhaana is aruupa-kusala citta. There is no apparent object as the object is pannatti of natthi-bhaava. So it is very intricate. Because of the nature of the object the citta is also very subtle. It is hard to say whether this citta has perception. If there is a perception there must have an object. Is there any object in 3rd aruupa jhaana? Yes, there is. What is that object? It is hard to recognize because of subtleness. So it is equally hard to say there is non-perception. When this 3rd aruupa jhaana citta is contemplated that contemplating citta is another citta. This citta is also subtle as in case of 3rd aruupa jhaana citta. It is neither perception nor non-perception. This is n'eva-sa~n~naa-naa-sa~n~naa-ayatana aruupa jhaana citta or the 4th aruupa jhaana citta. This 4th aruupa jhaana is 4th aruupa-kusala citta. The object of this citta is 3rd aruupa jhaana citta or 3rd aruupa-kusala citta. Again this 4th aruupa jhaana has to be exercised with five masteries. Now 1st ruupa jhaana, 2nd, 3rd(2nd+ 3rd = 2nd), 4th (3rd), and 5th (4th) ruupa jhaana, 1st aruupa jhaana, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th aruupa jhaana altogether there are 8 jhaanas ( 4 ruupa jhaanas and 4 aruupa jhaanas). For abhinnaa or jhaana power to produce the practitioner has to be free from 5 garuka-kamma. He must not have killed his own father, own mother, any arahat, must not hurt The Live Buddha to bruising, and must not divide the unity of Sangha. Must be avoid sex and senses. He must be able to do samaapatti that is jhaana-samaapatti or jhaana- attainment whenever he wants. This can be achieved through the practice of masteries in jhaana. When these jobs have been done then jhaana and kasi.na exercises have to be done. First the practitioner has to be able to enter pathavii kasi.na with ease then emerge and enter tejo and so on up to the last kasi.na aakaasa kasi.na. When this is finished then he has to do in backward order. After that foreward and backword order one after another. Next he has to enter into 1st ruupa jhaana and then exit and enter 2nd and this up to 4th aruupa jhaana. After that go back downward from 4th aruupa jhaana to the bottom 1st ruupa jhaana. After this jhaana in both foreward and backward order has to be practised. Another step is skip kasi.na like from pathavii then to apo then to piita then to odaata then aakaasa etc in skipping manner while it is in serial in jhaana order that is 1st ruupa to 4th aruupa. Next step is skip jhaana while kasi.na is in order. After that skip in both. In this way all complex matters in jhaana become proficient. Angaa or limbs of jhaana have to be contemplated. Then all the object in jhaana have to be contemplated. Then the practitioner become proficient in jhaana matter. This is just for ordinary person with tihetuka pa.tisandhi. If person concerned is perfected one he or she will have a quick action in skipping, entering, emerging, scrutinizing etc etc. Because of masteries jhaana can arise at will and stop at will. When abhinnaa is to be used these steps must have exercised very well. As soon as the thought arises about the necessity of abhinnaa power then this sammaa-chanda (good-will) can be fulfiled by jhaana power. After determination there arise an abhinnaa-viithi vaara. Before this there arises determination-viithi-vaara. Abhinaa viithi vaara will bve like this... BBBMPUAGAb...................................BBBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJBBB B = bhavanga (life continuum) M = mano-dvara-avajjana citta (mind door adverting consciousness) P = parikamma (mahaakusala citta) U = upacaara (mahaakusala citta) A = anuloma (mahaakusala citta) G = gotrabhuu (mahaakusala citta) Ab= abhi~n~naa As soon as abhinnaa citta arises the task of jhaana power is done and there arise power. At the end there arise B or bhavanga citta and usual cittas arise and fall away as usual. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56289 From: "Htoo Naing" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 1:00am Subject: From Htoo's new account htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Sarah is reviving my Yahoo account. Someone has hacked my account and my address book. This affected U Han Tun, Tep, boddy_th, Colette, and others. I am sorry to see these mishaps. My this account opened some time ago. You may remember when I post some Dhamma Thread with the opening message of 'htoo.naing@...' wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, and so on. This account will be using in the future. Currently I am arranging to move somewhere. As Nina told me I may have a break and may come back. As long as I have access I will be posting Dhamma messages. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing (htootintnaing@...) 56290 From: "Htoo Naing" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 1:21am Subject: Hacker is right now online, be careful htootintnaing Dear Sarah and Jon, If you allow me, I will be posting Dhamma Thread up to (900) in a few days through Gmail. There will be a long break after which I may send messages as I am leaving soon. Ha Ha Ha, the hacker is now online. Please be careful. If I have my friend internet police I will be able to seize in a matter of hours. Now he is using boddy_th's Yahoo account. With much respect, Htoo Naing 56291 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 0:33am Subject: Re: Bye Bye.. Why? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - Your farewell message was very sincere. You talked about your language deficiency, but it is a minor thing that should not be compared to your vast knowledge of Buddhism, depth of understanding of the Teachings, and most of all your great energy and saddha. Your many contributions to DSG are amazing; I have been used to seeing your posters for so long that it is almost unbelievable that you will soon "quit" it all. I still can't understand why you have to leave. Follow Nina's advice : go away for a while, and come back again (like I did). May you always be filled with dhamma joy -- wherever you are. Sincerely, Tep, your friend. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I gave warning shot that I will be leaving. I am leaving very soon and will be where internet is not available. Maybe some day I will be back. As long as I have access I will still be posting, you know. I am happy even in the middle of punches when we are fighting (Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha). I do not count anything that seems offence when we are fighting. Because Dhamma govern dhamma. When I was disturbed as in case of someone's post who misunderstood me (like KK) I directed my mind to my mind. That is the aversion was directed and it soon passed away. Then happiness arose. Again looked at happiness whether it is lobha or not and in this way my contemplating power increased. As a good friend I have not told you directly. But now I directly telling you that I will be leaving. It is very soon. In a few days. When I get access I will be posting depending on availability of time. Friends Always, Htoo 56292 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 0:38am Subject: Re: Mod note: Hacked email accounts htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, ---------------------------------- Dear Friends, Thanks Sarah and Jon for this reminder. I have some idea where this might come from. But I have no intention to disturb his or her or their job of hacking because it will stop in some way. It is not from DSG, it is not from JTN, it is not from triplegem, it is not from SariputtaDhamma, it is not from TeachingsOfBuddha, it is not from DhammadhipatiVihara, but it is from somewhere Buddhism group and the member may not well be a Buddhist. With respect, Htoo Naing 56293 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] about DSG htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Pablo & all, ... > > anyway you don't lose that much in not hearing my opinion :) > > > > cerini pablo > > > > p.s. very sad that h too is really going to leave ... > .... > S: I'd like to stress it has nothing to do with the hacker problems in > case anyone wondered. I'm quite sure he'll find ways to post and keep us > all updated. It may just take him a little time to sort out his affairs > and work out his arrangements. > > Pablo, it's very nice to hear of your keen interest in the dhamma. I'd > really like to know which old threads are of most interest to you and to > read your comments on any old posts. > > We mentioned before you joined (I think) that if anyone would like a hard > copy of A.Sujin's Abhidhamma book 'Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas',translated by Nina and recently published, to please let Sukin, > Nina or I know off-list with your address. There's no cost involved. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear all members (Sarah, Pablo and Dhamma Friends), My message to Nina (which has not appear yet on list), the message to Tep (which has not appear yet on list) would say my leaving. I have this plan for a few months. Someone may remember when I post Dhamma Thread with opening message of 'htoo.naing@... wrote:'. I have been arranging since then. My leaving is nothing to do with hacking problem. I do not have much time to track down the hacker. But I have some idea where it comes from. I will leave him/her/them alone. I will be leaving soon. But whenever I have access I will be sending Dhamma messages. I am going to somewhere where internet is not available. I have arrange to send messages and Dhamma will still be avaiable in package form. That is 'a message with all the issue and questions directed to me' and 'a message that all answer or respond to these issue'. The response may well be in chunked form or in solid form like a single message depending on the helping friend/s. With Metta, Htoo Naing 56294 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 0:46am Subject: Encouraging Arousal ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Some Genuine Facts: Only he is bright, who shines by himself! What is good, is really ... Good !!! What is excellent, is really ... Excellent !!! What is perfect, is really ... Perfect !!! Canal makers direct the water. Arrow makers straighten their shafts. Carpenters plane their pieces of wood. The Clever Nobles train their Mind. Dhammapada 80 They who meditate regularly; They who endure enthusiastically; They who exert much effort; These wise ones attain Nibbana: The supreme Peace, the sublime Bliss. Dhammapada 23 Health is the greatest gain. Contentment is the highest treasure. Certainty is the foremost helper. Nibbana is the supreme Bliss ... Dhammapada 204 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56295 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 1:49am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 59 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 59 Text Vis.: Herein, while ignorance about any instance that is not the two supramundane truths can also arise as object (see par. 102), nevertheless here it is only intended [subjectively] as concealment. For when [thus] arises it keeps the truth of 'suffering' concealed, preventing penetration of the true individual function and characteristic of the truth. ------------ N: The Tiika elaborates: ignorance does not allow to penetrate by direct realisation (paccakkhato) dukkha, namely, its own characteristic and function as they really are, such as the meaning of oppression or suffering (pii.lana). ----------- Text Vis.: Likewise, origin, cessation, and the path, bygone five aggregates called 'the past', coming five aggregates called 'the future, both of these together called 'the past and future' and both 'specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states'--all of which it keeps concealed, preventing their true individual functions and characteristics being penetrated thus: 'This is ignorance, these are formations'. That is why it is said, 'It is unknowing about suffering ... unknowing about specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states'. ----------- N: The Tiika explains that ignorance also conceals cessation, nirodha, which is nibbaana, the third noble Truth, and the Path, which is the fourth noble Truth. Ignorance cannot take as object cessation and the Path, and since, while it occurs, what are not the Path and what are not cessation (anirodhamaggesu) are taken for the Path and cessation, it does not allow to penetrate their true characteristics. Therefore it is said that here (in the Vis. text) it is only intended as concealment. The wrong Path does not lead to the cessation of dukkha, nibbaana. The Tiika explains that the objective field which is dukkha etc. is complete darkness (andhatamakaro), and that not knowing (aññaa.na.m) occurs in the mode of not seeing, which is a condition for lobha etc. to be complete darkness. Lobha is actually the second noble Truth, the origination of dukkha. Conclusion: If one takes for the right Path what is the wrong Path and for nibbaana what is not nibbaana, one will not be liberated from defilements, from the cycle of birth and death. Ignorance conceals the truth of dukkha at this moment. We read in Ch XVII, 43, Here we are reminded to apply the text about ignorance to the dhamma appearing right now. Because of ignorance we do not realize the true nature of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc. When the ruupa which is visible object impinges on the ruupa that is eyesense there are conditions for the arising of seeing. Seeing which is the result of kamma can only arise when visible object and eyesense have not fallen away yet. Ruupa lasts longer then naama. What arises because of different conditioning factors falls away, it is impermanent. Seeing and visible object that arise now are impermanent and thus dukkha. When there is ignorance, one is unable to penetrate the true nature of the dhammas which arise and fall away. If the right Path, which is satipatthaana, is developed at this moment, we shall come to know that seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and all dhammas appearing through the six doors are dukkha. Whatever dhamma arises and falls away at this moment is dukkha. ******* Nina 56296 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? nilovg Hi Joop, Ken, Howard (and Christine at end), op 02-03-2006 20:06 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > You said: "Hallo Joop, perhaps we need some more discussion on > fatalism. Knowing that whatever arises does so because of conditions > is not fatalistic as I see it. > > I think a better point of discussion is my statement: "a person who > thinks he or she can make moral and spiritual decisions and tries to > practice them, has NOT perse more atta-belief than one who waits till > conditions do their work." ------- N: Ken explained this very well to Howard. Both had spirited discussions and also with humor and good spirit. When we speak about conditions we should be very precise, there are 24 classes of condiitons, paccayas. The way they operate in our life is most intricate. Conditionality has nothing to do with fatalism. Ken said something I take to heart: I find that I understand this in theory, but I need to scrutinize myself as to the application. I found that I needed the frequent reminders in Bgk recently: still studying with an idea of self. ------- J: > This combined with your comment of some days ago - which was not > helpful to Christine's sadness at all - in #56184: > "yes, that is so helpful, I think: there, so it's hopeless'.> Always those good reminders how much we > are entangled in this self idea. It appears before we realize it." ---------- N: I really feel concern for Christine, taking so much trouble coming from Australia to attend the sessions in Bgk. I wish I could elaborate more on her points. Nina. 56297 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye Bye nilovg Dear Htoo, I thank you for your kind words to all dsgers and to me. I agree with Tep, And then the kitchen incident, oven door crashed, I never thought there was anything unpleasant or insinuating in your words. You always spoke kindly in your discussions. No apologies needed at all. I shall also miss you in your reactions to Larry's and my Visuddhimagga project. Or your comments on Cetasikas, always worth while. Food for thought. With warmest wishes, Nina. op 02-03-2006 18:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > I must apologise for my loose words, which sounded like insinuating > words (as your friend or something Amara would say) that directed to > you when you say about something crashed in the kitchen. 56298 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 2:07am Subject: Re: How to Support the Sangha regularly. ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Joop wrote: > How to Support the Sangha regularly ? > So the question is: how to translate the fourth advice to such a situation? Some ideas: > 1: Giving dana to the (layperson-) teacher of a meditation group. > 2: Visiting a Theravada Temple at least once a year or every observance day. > 3: Trying to make & support a local organization that works as a Sangha IMHO: ;-) The Sangha is: Any person, entity or organization that promotes the true Buddha-Dhamma. Support can be giving, helping, building, cleaning, maintaining, anything that is of benefit. There are these 3 meanings of Sangha = Community of Disciples: There is the Ariya-Sangha = The community of Noble Disciples There is the Ordained Sangha = The communities of bhikkhus & bhikkhunis. There is the General Sangha = The community of also lay disciples of the Buddha. For those who have no ordained Bhikkhu Sangha around: Donations to the _DhammaDhara Foundation:_ dhammadhara@... can be given easily, securely & quite advantageously here. http://what-buddha-said.net/various/appreciations.htm Press the Paypal 'Make a Donation' button lowest down. Pinsitu Vewa = Sinhalese (May your merit & fruits thereof become truly great!) Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 56299 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 3, 2006 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Perspective on Dependent Origination nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your post. B.B. in his intro to the D.O. also takes it that the D.O. is to be applied to the present time. I quote some part: