58600 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition .. A Lurking Self ? indriyabala Hi, Nina (Fabrizio) - It is not getting more complicated -- I think the issue Fabrizio has raised is simple but seeing the issue clearly is difficult when there is a self to be protected <'I cannot be wrong.'>. >N: >I found that this clarified the point that the Tripartie division of this great work was for teaching purposes, not for telling people: first siila, then samaadhi, then vipassanaa. Tep: The importance of siila being the first of the training (sikkhaa) to be developed is clearly not for teaching purpose. "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (aasava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kaamaasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjaasava)."[from Nyanatiloka Dictionary] Tep: Patimokkha (training rules) and virtues (morality) as "siila" really are the foundation -- the beginning, the very first step of this Buddha-sassana. Understanding and concentration at the non-ariyan level are, of course, cannot be separated from the purification of virtues (Even a kindergarten kid needs both concentration and understanding to succeed in school.). But the higher concentration and understanding at the level of Purification must be supported by the virtues that are strong enough to condition the three good conducts in order to fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness [see Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6]. ......... >N: In fact in one of the paras, the Vis. stated that this order was for teaching purposes. This was in Ch XIV where it explained about 'order' under different aspects, with different examples. Tep: I think you are trying to avoid the important fact that there is the specific order beginning at siila; it is the foundation of the Dhamma-vinaya. Read the suttas! The Vism. sometimes contradicts itself. For example, read the first paragraph of Vism. Chapter I. It states as follows: 1. 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a bhikkhu and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i.13) Tep: It is clear. It is simple English. It says that virtues must be well established before the development (purification) of consciousness and understanding. It does not say, though, that the purification of understanding is "isolated from" the consciousness purification. It doesn't say either that purification of virtues stops before the next purification begins. But the fact that virtues are the ground, the foundation is very, very clear. Virtue (siila, morality, precepts and training rules) is the ground on which the wise man stands. Read this very first chapter further you'll find the following : Vism. 7. ".. 'Established well in virtue' : standing on virtue." ................ >N: Do you remember that we talked about Howard's explanation of the spiral wise development? And you agreed that we could not say: first this then that and take the factors in isolation, if I rightly understood you. When talking about siila we have to deal with many aspects of it, as we did before with MahaaCunda sutta (was it this one or another one?). Tep: Yes, I do remember that spiral thing. And I also remember my comment that the spiral is at the middle of the development. This is because of the inseparable concentration and understanding while we are continuing to purify sila further. Do you remember that we also discussed a few discourses about the new monks and that they must be taught to develop siila first? The "many aspects" of sila is one issue, the importance of sila and vinaya at the begining is another issue. ............. >N: You just uttered some feelings of frustration about this discussion, but this may not be necessary. At least I hope I can do something about these. Tep: Not at all. I have not been frustrated about your discussion with Fabrizio -- I just informed and warned him! He was frustrated in the message #58561 : > > F: > > Unfortunately your view that the Buddha suggested to develop Sila at the same time with Samadhi and Panna is not rooted in anything in the Canon and so it is technically eretic - of course one would mantain some truths are not captured by the teaching of the Buddha and this position is totally acceptable; even if I do not personally recognize myself in this latter view. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > it is all more complex. (snipped) > N: I never meant to say: siila cannot arise without right understanding. > But, for its purification understanding is the condition. It can develop and even samatha and vipassana, even enlightenment are classified under siila by the Visuddhimagga. I foiund that this clarified the point that the Tripartie division of this great work was for teaching purposes, not for telling people: first siila, then samaadhi, then vipassanaa. In fact in one of the paras, the Vis. stated that this order was for teaching purposes. This was > in Ch XIV where it explained about 'order' under different aspects, with different examples. > Samaadhi in samatha needs paññaa, but paññaa of the level of samatha. > (snipped) > ---------- > Nina. > -------------- > This quote > > actually states that virtues comes first, then non-remorse arises, > > then gladness, ... concentration, dispassion, ... direct knowledge and > > enlightenment all result from the very, very first "virtues" having > > been developed. > 58601 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Great References (Mahapadesa) ken_aitch Hi Herman, Nina has told me of a good post on vinnana anidassana written by Suan. So far, I have found one - No. 16922 (that's November 2002) - as well as one by Sarah - No. 16916. They are heavy going, especially at 2 o'clock in the morning. I am too alert to sleep, but too tired to make head or tail of these prodigious works. I will go back to bed. It would be nice if you would prepare and post a summary in simple English that I can read with my breakfast. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Geoff, KenAitch, > > I am very much appreciating the discussion. > > > > > > Please see DN 11 and MN 49. > > > > > For the interested, a footnote from BT on DN11. > > > *Viññanam anidassanam.* This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, 58602 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi, Andrew - You asked : > Do you both agree? > No. I do not. See my reasons in #58600 (to Nina). Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi Fabrizio > > Welcome to DSG. Tep and you wrote: (snipped) > Andrew: The issue you are discussing pre-dates Khun Sujin by a long > way. Here are some comments by Bhikkhu Dhammapala in Wheel > Publication #132/133/134 (1st ed. 1944): > > "... This shows again how Buddhist Ethics or moral principles, like > everything else in Buddhism, are based on a foundation quite > different from morality in other religions. Mental development is > exactly what is needed for the development of morality. For, "when > religion ceases to be wisdom, it becomes superstition overlaid with > reasoning" (George Santayana). In other religions good conduct is > enough to become a saint: "If ye have love ye have perfected the > law," said St Paul to the Ephesians. According to later reformers > like Luther, faith alone is enough for salvation. But in Buddhism > real virtue is impossible without the foundation of reason. The > truth must both be experienced and understood." > 58603 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:49am Subject: Re: On conditions, God willing .. Sutta Interpretation, Is It Really Bad? indriyabala Hi, James - Thank you for your nice remark : >James: >> You're welcome. And thank you for demonstrating what it means to be a true follower of dhamma. > I know there must be several DSG members who strongly disagree with that remark ! They may even challenge you to define "a true follower of dhamma", and there will never ever be an agreed-upon definition. Even the simple fact that siila (virtues, morality) is the ground on which concentration(samadhi) and understanding(paññaa) develop is not accepted by Nina and Andrew. Oh, I should have added Jon, Sarah, and KenH too. BTW Did I still miss a few more names? Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" > wrote: > > > > > Thanks one hundred times, James, for you clear understanding of the > > 2nd Path factor and for speaking out for me. > > > (snipped) 58604 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:39am Subject: Metta 6 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. ***** Nina. 58605 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:01am Subject: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 A question: In the practise of satipatthaana, as I understand, one is to label that which one becomes aware of when it arises. I find this to be "heavy-handed" in practise. It gets in the way and feels totally contrived and unnatural. I do notice, though, that there is a quieter or more subtle "labelling" that I can experience if I don't speak loudly in my mind. I find that the "label" seems to arise more smoothly and sort of "hears itself" or "thinks itself" or something. I'd prefer to pay attention to this. It does seem to take some cultivation, that is, it seems to come when I don't try to label what arises in the way I think one is instructed to. Any thoughts? Sincerely, Scott. 58606 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 0:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Weekend Break in Posting buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Larry > > > Well, it's complicated. You're always saying "we can't understand > this" > > but you, more than anyone else here, bring to the group fresh insights > > into your own mental processes, almost in every email. > > > Really? That's nice of you to say, but I think it's just a lot of > verbal clevery. Honestly, I don't want to be original. I would like > to "parrot" (I don't like that word) what Acharn Sujin says again and > again and again and reflect on it until it begins to sink in. I think > we learn more by repeating what our mentors say and reflecting on it > than by forming our own ideas. I know that goes against the > famous "rely on yourself" but I believe it. The same goes when I study > Japanese or teach English - I find mechanical repetition works wonders. > > Honestly, I *would* like to be an unthinking follower! I think too > much thinking gets us in trouble, honestly I do. > The Buddha taught specifically against this attitude. He wanted those who follow the dhamma to investigate it and prove it for themselves. Parroting someone else isn't going to teach you to think for yourself or bring you wisdom. And, from what I have read from Nina, KS doesn't want people to follow her unthinkingly. She has said that she wants people to read and understand the texts for themselves (if I understood correctly). Keep this in mind, when people feel insecure or have a low self-esteem, they often try to replace their personal ego with a collective ego- in other words, to join a group that shares common goals and usually stands in opposition to the majority. Therefore, you may think you are abandoning your ego but you may be just replacing your personal ego with a collective ego. Metta, James 58607 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 427- mindfulness/sati (i) indriyabala Hi, Herman - Let's move on and away from the "ugly & fat woman" issue, because I am not in favor of "trying it out". > >Herman: > > >Why, some of my best friends crave the existence of parramattha > > dhammas :-) > > > > Tep: Why, do you not think they think "only the paramattha > > dhammas" do exist? > > No, I do think they do think that parramatha dhammas do exist :-) > Tep: If they think so, then why do they (some of your best friends) crave the existence of paramattha dhammas? {:>|) Upekkha, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > I have a question for you : suppose the beautiful woman's skin was > > seen on the body of a fat and ugly woman, would there be craving for > > "that" skin? > > ............ > > > Best way to find out is to try it But I don't see a contradiction in a fat, > ugly woman having beautiful skin, or skin that you somehow crave. > > > > 58608 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 0:20pm Subject: Re: On conditions, God willing .. Sutta Interpretation, Is It Really Bad? buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > Hi, James - > > Thank you for your nice remark : > > >James: > >> You're welcome. And thank you for demonstrating what it means to > be a true follower of dhamma. > > > > I know there must be several DSG members who strongly disagree with > that remark ! They may even challenge you to define "a true follower > of dhamma", and there will never ever be an agreed-upon definition. James: Well, a true follower of the dhamma is someone who follows the Noble Eightfold Path. And I mean follows it in the way the Buddha defined, nothing about the "momentary path factors" idea. > > Even the simple fact that siila (virtues, morality) is the ground on > which concentration(samadhi) and understanding(paññaa) develop is not > accepted by Nina and Andrew. Oh, I should have added Jon, Sarah, and > KenH too. BTW Did I still miss a few more names? James: I don't know. It doesn't matter. What matters is to know for oneself what the Buddha taught and to follow his path as well as possible. And when you trip and fall, pick yourself up, brush yourself off, and keep on going. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ====== Metta, James 58609 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 0:29pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana icarofranca Hi Scott! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > In the practise of satipatthaana, as I understand, one is to label > that which one becomes aware of when it arises. I find this to be > "heavy-handed" in practise. It gets in the way and feels totally > contrived and unnatural. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I am reading and re-reading the Satipatthana Sutta Nowadays (reading only spends 30 Calories...so, it´s a real no-effort in act!), and I must disagree with you, Scott. The Satipatthana, as desbribed in this sutta, is an almost effortless act to conducing mind to perfect insight and clarification. It begins taking awareness of your body, the body in the body, by paying attention on your breath. From this ground you take note of a Samatha, Vipassana and both Samatha and Vipassana phases while you are aware of the external, internal and both internal and external body feelings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I do notice, though, that there is a quieter > or more subtle "labelling" that I can experience if I don't speak > loudly in my mind. I find that the "label" seems to arise more > smoothly and sort of "hears itself" or "thinks itself" or something. > I'd prefer to pay attention to this. It does seem to take some > cultivation, that is, it seems to come when I don't try to label what > arises in the way I think one is instructed to. > > Any thoughts? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Some people could consider hammering on and on your own head with a mantra a natural effort:I consider satipatthana a "low impact" technique on mind control that really works better than assign labels on feelings or take such "mantra-hammering", you see... Mettaya, Ícaro 58610 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 0:33pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana indriyabala Hi Scott, I need a clarification. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > A question: > > In the practise of satipatthaana, as I understand, one is to label > that which one becomes aware of when it arises. I find this to be > "heavy-handed" in practise. It gets in the way and feels totally > contrived and unnatural. I do notice, though, that there is a quieter > or more subtle "labelling" that I can experience if I don't speak > loudly in my mind. I find that the "label" seems to arise more > smoothly and sort of "hears itself" or "thinks itself" or something. > I'd prefer to pay attention to this. It does seem to take some > cultivation, that is, it seems to come when I don't try to label what > arises in the way I think one is instructed to. > > Any thoughts? > Are you specifically referring to the Mahasi Sayadaw's mental noting vipassana, or "bare attention" by Nyanaponika Thera? It is not so simple as it may seem -- Sayadaw Pandita (a well-known Vipassana Teacher) called it "the second vipassana jhaana" because of the absence of thoughts (vitakka-vicara) ["In This Very Life", page 199. Sayadaw U Pandita. Wisdom Publication, Boston, 1992] Sincerely, Tep ===== 58611 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 0:55pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana Taking Note indriyabala Hi Ícaro, I have read and reread your post (#58609), trying to get a clear idea. Then I thought, "why don't I just ask him to explain to me how he does his effortless act?". > Ícaro: The Satipatthana, as desbribed in this sutta, is an almost effortless act to conducing mind to perfect insight and clarification. It begins taking awareness of your body, the body in the body, by paying attention on your breath. From this ground you take note of a Samatha, Vipassana and both Samatha and Vipassana phases while you are aware of the external, internal and both internal and external body feelings." Tep: Please describe in your own words how you "take note" of the "samatha phase" of the anapanasati as described in the Satipatthana Sutta. Please give enough detail so that I can follow you without having to spend 300,000 calories asking 100 more questions. {:>) Thank you, Ícaro. Sincerely, Tep ==== 58612 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:57pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. "I need a clarification. Are you specifically referring to the Mahasi Sayadaw's mental noting vipassana, or "bare attention" by Nyanaponika Thera? It is not so simple as it may seem -- Sayadaw Pandita (a well-known Vipassana Teacher) called it "the second vipassana jhaana" because of the absence of thoughts (vitakka-vicara) ["In This Very Life", page 199. Sayadaw U Pandita. Wisdom Publication, Boston, 1992]" I'm reading Nyanaponika Thera at the moment, so "bare attention," (as no doubt misunderstood by me). And it doesn't seem simple. Any further thoughts will be greatly appreciated! Sincerely, Scott. 58614 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:50pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > A question: > > In the practise of satipatthaana, as I understand, one is to label > that which one becomes aware of when it arises. I find this to be > "heavy-handed" in practise. It gets in the way and feels totally > contrived and unnatural. I do notice, though, that there is a quieter > or more subtle "labelling" that I can experience if I don't speak > loudly in my mind. I find that the "label" seems to arise more > smoothly and sort of "hears itself" or "thinks itself" or something. > I'd prefer to pay attention to this. It does seem to take some > cultivation, that is, it seems to come when I don't try to label what > arises in the way I think one is instructed to. > > Any thoughts? Hi Scott, Does that include thoughts from non-meditators? :-) Satipatthana refers to the five khandhas. (Doesn't all of the Buddha's teaching?) It refers to the five khandhas in an instance when panna has arisen to directly know the characteristic of a conditioned dhamma. Satipatthana arises as the result of long, long association with the right sort of people (Dhamma friends) during which the true Dhamma is repeatedly heard, discussed, considered and genuinely understood as being applicable to the present moment. The Satipatthana Sutta describes satipatthana: it does not describe the factors (the Dhamma friends etc.) that lead to satipatthana. It begins with the most revered form of satipatthana experienced only by the greatest ariyans (that is, satipatthana in tandem with mundane jhana). As with all of the Dhamma, the Satipatthana Sutta describes dhammas that are arising now - or would be arising now if the appropriate conditions were present. In my case, panna is not arising now to take a conditioned dhamma as its object because the appropriate conditions have not been put in place. However, other dhammas are arising - by conditions. That, for what it is worth, is my right understanding. Please be wary of [well meaning] people who tell you the Satipatthana Sutta is a set of instructions for making satipatthana happen. It isn't! Ken H 58615 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta egberdina Hi Tep, On 30/04/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > Hi, Andrew - > > You asked : > > > Do you both agree? > > > > No. I do not. See my reasons in #58600 (to Nina). Just a quick note to say that I agree with you. I think that MN 24 backs you up as well. There is no sense of a spiral in 7 consecutive relay chariots. If Sariputta was intending to convey a codependence between all factors rather than one on the other, I am sure he would have used a non-sequential analogy. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58616 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 427- mindfulness/sati (i) egberdina Hi Tep, > > > No, I do think they do think that parramatha dhammas do exist :-) > > > > Tep: If they think so, then why do they (some of your best friends) > crave the existence of paramattha dhammas? {:>|) If I'm not mistaken, they think that momentary insight knowledge of a parramattha dhamma will bring about salvation. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58617 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:33pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana ... KenH's Jokes indriyabala Hi KenH (and all), Boy!! Your jokes below are really entertaining ! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > (snipped) > > > Hi Scott, > > Does that include thoughts from non-meditators? :-) > > Satipatthana refers to the five khandhas. (Doesn't all of the Buddha's teaching?) It refers to the five khandhas in an instance when panna has arisen to directly know the characteristic of a conditioned dhamma. > > Satipatthana arises as the result of long, long association with the > right sort of people (Dhamma friends) during which the true Dhamma is repeatedly heard, discussed, considered and genuinely understood as > being applicable to the present moment. > > The Satipatthana Sutta describes satipatthana: it does not describe > the factors (the Dhamma friends etc.) that lead to satipatthana. It > begins with the most revered form of satipatthana experienced only by the greatest ariyans (that is, satipatthana in tandem with mundane jhana). > > As with all of the Dhamma, the Satipatthana Sutta describes dhammas > that are arising now - or would be arising now if the appropriate > conditions were present. In my case, panna is not arising now to take a conditioned dhamma as its object because the appropriate conditions have not been put in place. However, other dhammas are arising - by conditions. That, for what it is worth, is my right understanding. > > Please be wary of [well meaning] people who tell you the Satipatthana Sutta is a set of instructions for making satipatthana happen. It isn't! > Ken H > Tep: You claim that "Satipatthana arises as the result of long, long association with the right sort of people (Dhamma friends) during which the true Dhamma is repeatedly heard, discussed, considered and genuinely understood as being applicable to the present moment.". And yet you contradict yourself by saying: "The Satipatthana Sutta describes satipatthana: it does not describe the factors (the Dhamma friends etc.) that lead to satipatthana." Questions: ---------- If the Satipatthana Sutta doesn't even mention "the Dhamma friends etc.", then where in the whole wide world have you got that laughable idea that "Satipatthana arises as the result of long, long association with the right sort of people (Dhamma friends)" ? Do you really know what "Satipatthana" is? What are the "dhammas that are arising now" that the Satipatthana Sutta describes? What are the benefits? Is the "right understanding" that you claim to have the same as samma-ditthi? I look forward to more entertainments ! Best wishes, Tep ==== 58618 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:50pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana icarofranca Hi Scott! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > How do you "take note?" What does this translate into for you in > practise? --------------------------------------------------------------------- It´s the same in your usual acts: you raise your foot to walk, so you can make yourself aware of it, thinking " I am raising my foot", or seating, "I am seating now". That´s the usual theravada way for mind training. When you seat for meditation with a serious mood, after some minutes you breathing rhythm will naturally come slow: you can think then " My mind is going to be still and calm" and so on. At the Theravada method, you must take such instructions by the letter: when you mind becomes calm, you must think " My mind is becoming calm"...with the practice you will sustain this mind pattern without the explicit verbal thinking of it, till you reach the first Samatha stages, when the mind becomes one-pointed and still like a lake surface. Samatha begins like contemplating an external object and your mind gains the necessary concentration. At Vipassana you have to go further, put aside external objects even in your own mind and try to reach pure and dry insight and so on. With the serious Satipatthana practice your mind will manage to be aware of this very smooth stages of meditation. That´s no "labelling", because you won´t hammer your mind trying to think " Samatha Samatha Samatha..." or "Vipassana Vipassana Vipassana...": you just have to cultivate right attention and perceive such changes in your mind while you are meditating on. Well...that´s my opinion grounded on some lectures of Satipatthana Sutta: that´s a very serious text and corrections are welcome! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > 58619 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: metta 5. egberdina Hi Phil, On 30/04/06, Phil wrote: > > > Hi Nina and all > > > How ugly is an angry man! His sleep > > Is comfortless; with fortune in his hands > > He suffers loss; and being full of wrath > > He wounds by act and bitter word. > > Yes, but we cannot choose not to be angry. One is entirely responsible for their mental state at any given time. Until such time that there is knowledge and acceptance of the way things are. That there is anger is an indication that there is neither knowledge or acceptance. That anger is there precisely because one thinks one can choose. When we are angry, we can understand that it has come to be > because of our accumulations in that department. No need to fret > about it. If one cannot choose to not be angry, then one certainly cannot choose to understand. That there is anger is only an indication that there is no understanding. > See the angry man who knows he is angry due to conditions! One of those conditions being a mindless devolution of what is voluntary to what is involuntary. The tension eases and there *is* comfort in panna. > > What a blessing in disguise when we understand our akusala. And so the mery-go-round completes another cycle of craving/satisfaction. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58620 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi Friend Herman (Nina, Andrew) - You hit the nail multiple times on its head when you wrote that MN 24 was another evidence of the squential order in Siila-Samadhi-Paññaa. Of course, the seven chariots simile is a great one! > Herman: > Just a quick note to say that I agree with you. I think that MN 24 backs you up as well. There is no sense of a spiral in 7 consecutive relay chariots. > If Sariputta was intending to convey a codependence between all factors rather than one on the other, I am sure he would have used a non-sequential analogy. Quote from MN 24 Relay Chariots : "Answering in this way, my friend, he would answer them correctly: 'Just now, as I was staying at Savatthi, some urgent business arose at Saketa; and between Savatthi and Saketa seven relay chariots were made ready for me. Coming out the door of the inner palace in Savatthi, I got in the first relay chariot. By means of the first relay chariot I reached the second relay chariot. Getting out of the first relay chariot I got in the second relay chariot. By means of the second relay chariot I reached the third... by means of the third I reached the fourth... by means of the fourth, the fifth... by means of the fifth, the sixth... by means of the sixth I reached the seventh relay chariot. Getting out of the sixth relay chariot I got in the seventh relay chariot. By means of the seventh relay chariot I finally arrived at the door of the inner palace at Saketa.' Answering in this way, he would answer them correctly." "In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." ....................... With sincere appreciation, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > On 30/04/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Andrew - > > > > You asked : > > > > > Do you both agree? > > > > > > > No. I do not. See my reasons in #58600 (to Nina). > > (snipped) > > > 58621 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 427- mindfulness/sati (i) indriyabala Hi again, Herman - Thank you for being around when I am online. > > > > Tep: If they think so, then why do they (some of your best friends) > > crave the existence of paramattha dhammas? {:>|) > > > > If I'm not mistaken, they think that momentary insight knowledge of a > parramattha dhamma will bring about salvation. > > Yes, that makes sense ! Now you must read KenH's big jokes in message # 58614 and my reply in # 58617 too. He is proposing a laughable theory. Warm regards, Tep ========= 58622 From: "Paul Grabianowski" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Descartes! paulgrabiano... Thank you Larry for your interesting reply. It makes me realize just how complex some of these issue are. Anyway, here's just a few more thoughts: L: But the mind also creates the world. P: I agree with you Larry, but shouldn't we also add that the mind creates the world only in its relation to the world. In other words, if you have a pencil, you can sketch a nice picture, but if you don't have a paint brush and paint, you can't paint a Picasso. This is all quite obvious, but important. L: This is close to what I had in mind. I was trying to fix discursive thinking among the cetasikas. Vitakka and vicara were a possibility, and also ditthi. P: This is interesting also in terms of Western thinking. Many nineteenth century thinkers tried to figure out the difference between substantive thoughts and thoughts of relation. In other words, what is the difference between thinking of a dog as a thing and thinking of how the dog relates to other substantive thoughts. In other words, what allows different thoughts of things to come into a meaningful relation with each other. One of the criticisms I have of this kind of thinking is that it supposes that meaning is the end of thinking, and perhaps pragmatically it is. However, by neglecting to see thinking as anything other than pragmatic, it fails to ask the question of what thinking really is. Buddhist practice, I think, excels at questioning both what thinking is and what thinking does, and it ultimately finds both of these ways of thinking about thinking insufficient. L: I recently read in the Visuddhimagga that even in the rupa-less plane the rupa of mind base is still necessary, but rupa is not an object of consciousness. P: This is really interesting. I wish I knew more about it. L: True, but mind usually thinks _about_ generalities, and this is what we take personally as me and mine. In other words, I think a bunch of nonsense and that is what I am. I think therefore I am. How do you say that in French? "Je pense, est voila, je suis"? P: I agree that we often think about generalities and nonsense. But, isn't this nonsense also about sense. We can't suppose like Descartes that thinking is separate from the world or even from itself. Aren't generalities really at bottom conditioned realities that need to be understood? Paul 58623 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:01pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana Taking Note icarofranca Hi Tep! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: Please describe in your own words how you "take note" of the > "samatha phase" of the anapanasati as described in the Satipatthana > Sutta. Please give enough detail so that I can follow you without > having to spend 300,000 calories asking 100 more questions. {:>) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Think about the Theravada way for mind training: when you walk, you must think "I am walking. I am raising my foot". When you seat, you think " I am sitting down now" and so on. At meditation you must do the same, now with your body, feelings, mind, and phenomena. When you sits down seriously for meditation, your breathing rhytm becomes more slow, so you think "My breath is becoming short or long" ( that´s verbatim on Satipattahna Sutta)and,when you perceive that your mind becomes calm and still like a fat and green pasture, you will be at the Samatha gates. It´s like contemplating an external object, till your mind becomes naturally focused and still - one-pointed. As I´ve posted to Scott, that´s my opinion about this question, grounded on some lectures on Satipatthana Sutta - Corrections are really welcome! Mettaya Ícaro 58624 From: "ericlonline" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:30pm Subject: Re: The Four Great References (Mahapadesa) ericlonline Hey Ken H, > I have to wonder why you brought this particular sutta to my > attention. Geoff has been saying that parinibbana does not mean final > cessation of consciousness: do you interpret this sutta as somehow > supporting his view? It seemed you were leaning to this view below. > > "How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: 'In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death — this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!' Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach. 58625 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:15pm Subject: Re: Weekend Break in Posting philofillet Hi James > And, from what I have read > from Nina, KS doesn't want people to follow her unthinkingly. She > has said that she wants people to read and understand the texts for > themselves (if I understood correctly). Keep this in mind, when > people feel insecure or have a low self-esteem, they often try to > replace their personal ego with a collective ego- in other words, to > join a group that shares common goals and usually stands in > opposition to the majority. Therefore, you may think you are > abandoning your ego but you may be just replacing your personal ego > with a collective ego. Gosh, I have a huge ego. That's not going anywhere any day soon. By following without thinking I mean her constant reminders to stay in the moment for understanding seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling *and* thinking, conditions permitting. She always brings us back to the moment, discourages speculative thinking about topics that are beyond our possible understanding. I've mentionned it before, but I love a talk in which there are questions from Jon and Sarah and Nina (via a letter) about complicated details about the fine rupas in visible object but A. Sujin refuses to answer. Can we understand visible object to this degree? No. The Buddha could but we can't. So drop it and return to what we *is* there for the understanding. Kinda zenny actually. Rob K mentionned to me when I first met him that he appreciates Zen and I can see why. Phil 58626 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:19pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > Does that include thoughts from non-meditators? :-) > > Satipatthana refers to the five khandhas. (Doesn't all of the Buddha's > teaching?) It refers to the five khandhas in an instance when panna > has arisen to directly know the characteristic of a conditioned dhamma. You have really put your neck on the line with this post. You have clearly described the KS approach to satipatthana without using the obscuring language Jon, Sarah, and Nina frequently use. However, in so doing, you have revealed how ridiculous an approach it is. Not one thing you write, from the beginning to the end, is true. You describe satipatthana as being insight into "dhammas" when the Buddha actually taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (which includes phenomena but also mundane things like the 32 body parts). You also state that satipatthana begins with a long, long association with dhamma friends, but the Buddha didn't teach that. You write that the beginning part of the sutta is directed toward those who have already achieved mundane jhana, but the sutta mentions nothing about that. And you conclude by saying that the sutta isn't giving instructions and yet it is very clearly the Buddha telling his monks how to practice satipatthana. I guess the only truths in what you wrote are that you are a non- meditator and that you are not currently practicing satipatthana. Since this is true, why should anyone follow your advice? Metta, James 58627 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:24pm Subject: Re: metta 5. philofillet HI Herman > One is entirely responsible for their mental state at any given time. Well, in that emotional responses are conditioned by past emotional this is true. But we can't choose our emotional responses. We can gradually condition the tendency to respond in a certain way, for sure. There is hope. Until > such time that there is knowledge and acceptance of the way things are. That > there is anger is an indication that there is neither knowledge or > acceptance. That anger is there precisely because one thinks one can choose. Ph: Hmm...interesting. The anger is there (from what I understand) because the things we cling to our not available to placate. So yes, we think we can ahve them whenever we want. Our anger is so very similar to babies crying for milk! > > > > When we are angry, we can understand that it has come to be > > because of our accumulations in that department. No need to fret > > about it. > > > If one cannot choose to not be angry, then one certainly cannot choose to > understand. Ph: Yes, that's true. Understanding is there or it isn't. Listening to the Buddha and trusted friends and reflecting on what we listen to conditions helpful understanding in difficult situations in daily life, that's for sure. >hat there is anger is only an indication that there is no > understanding. Right on. >> > > The tension eases and there *is* comfort in panna. > > > > What a blessing in disguise when we understand our akusala. > > > > And so the mery-go-round completes another cycle of craving/satisfaction. Hmmm. Nicely put. Phil 58628 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:32pm Subject: Re: Weekend Break in Posting buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I've mentionned it before, but I love a talk in which there are > questions from Jon and Sarah and Nina (via a letter) about > complicated details about the fine rupas in visible object but A. > Sujin refuses to answer. Can we understand visible object to this > degree? No. The Buddha could but we can't. So drop it and return to > what we *is* there for the understanding. > > Kinda zenny actually. Rob K mentionned to me when I first met him > that he appreciates Zen and I can see why. James: Sounds to me like KS might be a reluctant guru. At least that's something in her favor. I am always trying to get a better picture of that phantom! ;-)) > > Phil > Metta, James 58629 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:18pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear Ken, K: "Does that include thoughts from non-meditators?" What!? Do you mean there are "non-meditators" on this list? Scandalous! K: "Satipatthana arises as the result of long, long association with the right sort of people (Dhamma friends) during which the true Dhamma is repeatedly heard, discussed, considered and genuinely understood as being applicable to the present moment." Interesting. As with all things, this too must have its conditions to arise. It, like "meditation," is not a practise - but an event? K: "The Satipatthana Sutta describes satipatthana: it does not describe the factors (the Dhamma friends etc.) that lead to satipatthana. It begins with the most revered form of satipatthana experienced only by the greatest ariyans (that is, satipatthana in tandem with mundane jhana). As with all of the Dhamma, the Satipatthana Sutta describes dhammas that are arising now - or would be arising now if the appropriate conditions were present. In my case, panna is not arising now to take a conditioned dhamma as its object because the appropriate conditions have not been put in place. However, other dhammas are arising - by conditions. That, for what it is worth, is my right understanding." Do you infer that most of the beings capable of experiencing satipatthaana are extinct? I get the way of thinking that states that one cannot control the arising of dhammas, such as satipatthaana. Of course there must be satipatthaana the noun and satipatthaana the verb. Is there? Let's say a desire to focus on dhammas arising arises. This would have been conditioned. Let's say it arises after having read about it in DSG. Let's say that a bunch of aversion arises first and then subsides, leaving curiosity, interest, and other sorts of akusula dhammas. Let's say the desire to ask the question on DSG arises. Let's say the question is asked. What is the explanation for this? This is not tongue-in-cheek, by the way, this is a real question. K: "Please be wary of [well meaning] people who tell you the Satipatthana Sutta is a set of instructions for making satipatthana happen. It isn't!" Okay. Can you tell me, please, what you think it is? I mean, clarifying what you have already so kindly mentioned, of course. Sincerely, Scott. 58630 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition .. A Lurking Self ? corvus121 Hi Tep (Fabrizio and Nina) I have a suspicion that there is not such a "gulf" between our various viewpoints on this matter - but emails back and forth take such a long time to sort things out. (-: Tep wrote: > 1. 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a bhikkhu and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i.13) > > Tep: It is clear. It is simple English. It says that virtues must be > well established before the development (purification) of > consciousness and understanding. Andrew: I think you are giving mixed messages here. On the one hand, you state that the English is simple and clear. On the other hand, you say that "development" must be read as "purification". I see the point you are making (and it has validity IMO), but it's not the case that you are reading the English 'at face value'. You're not doing that at all but imposing another meaning on the normal English terms. I don't have a problem with that as long as we acknowledge we are doing it. The suttas are full of 'normal' Brahman terms being given a different Dhamma meaning. Tep: It does not say, though, that the > purification of understanding is "isolated from" the consciousness > purification. It doesn't say either that purification of virtues stops > before the next purification begins. But the fact that virtues are the > ground, the foundation is very, very clear. > > Virtue (siila, morality, precepts and training rules) is the ground on > which the wise man stands. Andrew: Agreed - a wise man (let's say a sotapanna) has perfect sila. But what about us? You rightly point out that it's not a case of us having to perfect sila first before we do anything else. Conditionality doesn't work like that. In the AN, the Buddha expressly pointed out how incredibly fast the mind changes - so fast even he couldn't come up with an appropriate simile to describe it. Think of all the mindstates that would therefore be involved in "doing" an exercise in sila like declining an offer to have illicit sex? Re Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition, I think the quote I gave from Bh. Dhammapala is talking about 'genuine or natural morality' (pakatisila) whereas I think you are mainly refering to 'prescribed morality' (pannatti-sila). Yes, I realise that the word pannatti makes you run for the hills and it's a distinction you probably don't accept. If so, that is why I think this thread has become a bit blurred and frustrating for you. But I agree with James - you should follow your own understanding and emphasis and not lose sleep over what you read on DSG! (-: Best wishes Andrew PS Nina, thanks for that Pali word the other week! I'm very slow to reply, sorry. 58631 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Descartes! lbidd2 Hi Paul, Thanks for your reply. I don't have anything further to add except to amplify one idea: L:" But the mind also creates the world. P: "I agree with you Larry, but shouldn't we also add that the mind creates the world only in its relation to the world. In other words, if you have a pencil, you can sketch a nice picture, but if you don't have a paint brush and paint, you can't paint a Picasso. This is all quite obvious, but important." L: When we experience a pencil there is the experience of a pencil out there and me in here, OR there is the experience of pencil qualities, "out there" qualities, me qualities, and "in here" qualities. Internal and external have no real meaning, as you will discover when practicing mindfulness of the breath. Both in-breath and out-breath are simply touch sensations. The sense of me being in here, cut off from everything out there is a false assumption. It's all the same plane of experience. Certainly the pencil experience is different from thinking about the pencil experience in an analytical way, and picking up the pencil and drawing a line is also a different experience, but they are all equally experience. There are representations in experience but those representations, which are experiences, are representations of other experiences. There is no experiential evidence of anything outside of experience. "Other" is simply different. It's not "out there". No external means no internal and so no self. Larry 58632 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:38pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear James, Howzitgoin? May I please respond to something you mentioned to Ken? J: "I guess the only truths in what you wrote are that you are a non- meditator and that you are not currently practicing satipatthana. Since this is true, why should anyone follow your advice?" I'll stick my neck out (a wee bit)and reveal my gut reaction to Ken's post (and Ken, this is just my projection you realise). I got the feeling that Ken was somewhat despondent and hopeless about his practise and finds some of what is spoken of here to be difficult to take. (Sorry Ken, if this misses the mark, but it does fit for me at times - hence the designation of "projection.") Sometimes the dhamma is hard to take. A lot of notions about practise are sharply confronted here by the extreme and deep anatta that winds up being expounded. I go through these moments of thinking that I can't do anything then if there is no control and it all depends on conditions. I also experience moments of elation or happiness about the Dhamma at times. Oh well, that's me. I didn't mind Ken's response, although, you are right in a way, I didn't get an answer I expected. Sincerely, Scott. 58633 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:15pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear James, (part 2) Howzitgoin? (I mean now.) You'll be thrilled to know that something else came to me while thinking about your response. Lately its become apparent to me that I've been trying too hard to get all the Pali terms for things straight (not a bad endeavour in and of itself, mind you.) I've missed the fact that there are many things arising in me that would likely qualify as worthy and that don't need labels to be there. For instance, all my years in psychoanalysis (that's me on the couch, mind you) and my training as a psychotherapist have enabled me to notice my feelings and responses to events with a precision and accuracy that only practise can allow. I'm good at it. I don't need a Pali term to be good at it. It so happens that there are some Pali terms for these things (don't ask me what they are) but this doesn't change the fact that these things arise in me. Learning the Dhamma seems different for me as this becomes apparent. Conditions have already been in place for these things to arise. I guess it behooves me to learn what it is called and what good can come of it. My point is that it is already here. Its cool, in a way, that so many things prior to my coming formally to the Buddha and the Dhamma for refuge were preparatory. This post to you was conditioned by a lot of factors, for example. Anyway, for what that was worth . . . Sincerely, Scott. 58634 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:39pm Subject: Mind door and sense door knowing rupa philofillet Hi Nina and all Nina, I felt compelled for some reason to transcribe this bit I heard from a talk the other day. It deals with that very deep subject that I have not been able to start to understand but occasionally like to have a quick look at - coming to know the mind door process as distinct from the sense door process.. I've put a few questions about halfway through this long transcription. When you have a moment, could I ask you to address those questions as well as providing a few thoughts on the import of the topic of this exchange? I ask you about this sort of thing every few months and fail to really grasp your answer (because the understanding isn't there yet) but I'm sure others of more advanced understanding will appreciate it as well. Please, no hurry. Thanks in advance. Phil A Sujin: At this very moment can anyone separate the sense door and the mind door which follows after bhavanga in between? Not yet. And can kusala with panna arise only one doorway or six doorways? Nina: Six doorways. A. Sujin: No, at that moment of the sense-door what does panna understand? Nina: What can panna understand? At the sense door it can only understand rupa, not nama. A. Sujin : Right. But the vipasanna-nana can understand both nama and rupa Nina : In the mind door process?c A. Sujin: And so the kusala citta which arise through the sense door process doesn?ft it understand rupa much clearer - when it?fs vipassana nana it cannot arise just one doorway, like the kusala with panna can understand the rupa clearly, but when it?fs vipasanna-nana, vipasanna-nana can understand all namas and rupa which arise one by one, right there, through each doorway, so panna, at the moment of the sense door process, can understand the rupa with vipasanna nana which is much more clearer than when it?fs not vipasanna nana. --- Ph: Do I understand correctly that at vipasanna-nana, vipasanna- nana (which is more powerful, different from ?gpanna?h) understands not only the mind door, but all the sense door processes as well. And the way it understands the rupa at the sense door is much more clearer than the way panna can possibly know it when there is not yet vipasanna-nana? To repeat a sentence from above - ?gvipasanna-nana can understand all namas and rupa which arise one by one, right there, through each doorway.?h But there is only one nama or one rupa at any moment for viapasanna-nana to understand, isn?ft there? This sentence makes it sound as if vipassana-nana is lasting longer than a moment and is understanding lots of namas and cittas arising. Doesn't vipasanna- nana fall away in a moment like any other citta? ---- Nina: But I understand always that vipassana-nana... A. Sujin: ...must be through mind door?c Nina: Yeah A. Sujin: For sure, it needs to be mind door, but is there no sense door at all? Nina: There is, there must be?c A. Sujin: There must be, in order to understand both nama and rupa, in order to understand rupa without the sense door process can there be the understanding of rupa? B. Nina: No. A. Sujin: So even it?fs through mind door, but the sense door is always there too. Because now the sense door process covers up the mind door process. Is that right? Because there must be mind door process which follow each sense door, after bhavanga, see how fast it is. So nobody knows the nature of mind door at all, because all the time visible object appears, and sometimes sound appears, but when it?fs vipasanna-nana, the mind door process appears to vipasanna-nana, that this is the world of mind-door process, and sense door is very tiny, because it shows that the sense door must be only seven javana, if we don?ft talk about the other citta, how fast and how short moment it is, so by studying one knows that it?fs through sense door - which mind door can understand the rupa through different sense door and also the nama at that moment appears as no-one nobody, just the mind door process. See? So how many processes? What processes are there mind door or sense door when it?fs vipasanna-nanna? So nothing can hide the mind door process when it?fs vipasanna-nana and it can understand the rupa through the sense door and at that moment the kusala with panna through the sense door process is there too. So fast. Nina: very complicated. A. Sujin: You see, Khun Nina, when the mind door process does not show up, who knows about the mind door process, but when the mind door process shows up, mind door process all the time, and the sense door process, how short it is.. Nina: In between?c A. Sujin: In between?cso it?fs the mind door process which can understand both the nama and the rupa, but there must be the sense door process as well, otherwise it?fs impossible to have the precise understanding of the rupa as it is, how short it is, and at the moment that it is sense door process, is that not the kusala with right understanding through the sense door..too? Nina: It must be. A. Sujin: So it?fs like that, it shows up, it?fs not hidden, like now, and that is through mind door, because mind door does not understand only nama, it also understands rupa too, but since it understands, it?fs vipasanna-nana through mind door which now understands all types of reality there, nama and rupa, and when we know that the sense door process also has kusala with panna?cwhen it experiences only rupa?c. Nina: So we can say satipatthana can arise at the sense door, at the moments of vipasanna-nana. A.Sujin: Why not? At that moment there is no doubt about sense door and mind door, because it is understood that there must be sense door?c.. 58635 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:39pm Subject: Re: The Four Great References (Mahapadesa) ken_aitch Hi Eric, These things are not always clear, but I have been talking about the final cessation of conditioned dhammas (khandhas), not about the annihilation of self. ----------- E: > It seemed you were leaning to this view below. > > "How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: 'In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death — this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!' Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach ----------- It may have seemed that way, but it wasn't. That is to say, my theoretical understanding wasn't. Who knows what was happening in the ultimate sense! In ultimate reality we worldlings have wrong view at countless moments of every day. I am sure we err sometimes on the side of eternity belief, sometimes on the side of annihilation belief. We possibly alternate in this way many times while articulating a single sentence. So thanks for the warning. :-) Ken H 58636 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:01pm Subject: Re: Mind door and sense door knowing rupa philofillet > Hi Nina and all Hi again Not that it really matters, but I think I've mis- transcribed "vipasanna-nana" through out. It should be vipassana? Phil 58637 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi Friend Herman (Nina, Andrew) - > > You hit the nail multiple times on its head when you wrote that MN 24 > was another evidence of the squential order in Siila-Samadhi-Paññaa. > Of course, the seven chariots simile is a great one! > > > Herman: > > Just a quick note to say that I agree with you. I think that MN 24 > backs you up as well. There is no sense of a spiral in 7 consecutive > relay chariots. > > If Sariputta was intending to convey a codependence between all > factors rather than one on the other, I am sure he would have used a > non-sequential analogy. Hi Tep and Herman In the sequential chariot metaphor, which chariot do you see yourselves as currently occupying? Does it work that way? If not, how does it work, as you see it? Best wishes Andrew 58638 From: "sukinder" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition sukinderpal Hi Fabrizio (and Nina), Welcome to DSG. Lobha for those Italian films (Bicycle Thief and La Dolce Vita being the two favorite), but better than this is to be reading an Italian Abhidhammika!:-) Hope you don't mind my butting in; I see that others have responded and I am behind in my reading. You wrote in response to Nina: ------------- > N: Not as rules that should be followed. Paññaa developed through > satipa.t.thaana is the condition to see their benefit and to enable one to > observe them. There are many degrees of observing them, and the sotaapanna > who has eradicated the wrong view of self will never transgress the five > precepts. Fab: I am sorry to notice you also apparently fell into this blunder. Though easily it is forgotten that the audience to whom the Buddha addresed His teachings, expecially with reference to the Paramattha ones like the Satipattana you mentioned, were people that already practiced an immaculate life: be them either already experienced monks or, in some cases, pupils of other ascetic schools, or, as in the case of Anathapindaka, disciples of the Buddha on the verge of death. =========================================== Sukinder: In another post you commented in reaction to the idea that there is no self, that this can lead to a kind of wrong view. Did you have in mind that such a person might not see the importance of developing Sila and the Brahmavihaaras? The concept of 'no self' taken out of context can seem dangerous I agree. However, in context of the Teachings as a whole, this is quite unlikely to happen. In fact it may be the very understanding needed to better come to appreciate the rest of Dhamma, including the fact of Sila ;-). You know that Sila is a conditioned reality and also that this can be with or without panna. Moreover, there is also what is called 'akusala sila'. Personally, I wish that I had better accumulations in this department of self-restraint, i.e. have more of the kusala and less of the akusala variety, but I don't and that’s it. Do I then go about trying to develop more sila? As you know whatever the citta in the moment, restraint or breaking of the precepts, it is due to complex set of conditions, beyond control. Also, restraint of the senses is in fact a moment of satipatthana, and this is the highest good, for at such a moment, there is sila, right concentration and right understanding all being developed. Sure, if one has lots and lots of sila even without panna, this is excellent. However there would be no "understanding" developed at those moments, would there? The development of panna takes its own course starting with intellectual right understanding, pariyatti. This can go together with the development of sila, but sila by itself can't lead to the development of panna. You talk about the danger of falling into wrong view; in fact I think that the idea of developing sila first as a basis for Samadhi and Panna is one with such a danger. Because we do not see the importance of developing 'right understanding' from the very beginning, invariably one aims at developing 'sila' regardless or not there is 'self view', hence the danger of 'sila'battaparamasa. I think most people fail to appreciate the role of pariyatti in the development of panna; this of course comes from not knowing what it really is. Does one have less sila if one knows intellectually that this is conditioned and beyond control? I don't think so. One may have the accumulations for more sila and another may have little, but in both cases, the development of right understanding, including intellectual understanding of the fact of 'no self', can only help to condition more sila and other kusala, don't you think? I think that as student of the Dhamma, at anytime from the very first step on to the last, the focus should be on the development of Right Understanding. Other levels of kusala including Dana, Sila and Samatha Bhavana are to be encouraged, however Dana and Sila can be *developed* only when there is Right Understanding of them, otherwise they at best only condition what might be called a 'habitual' response. Besides without Satipatthana, one might only recognize the gross and some medium akusala. On the other hand, even with right understanding of the intellectual level, one may begin slowly to recognize some forms of akusala otherwise mistaken for kusala. In other words, akusala sila is distinguished from kusala sila. Indeed the Buddha taught according to the audience's level of understanding, but I don't think he ever overlooked the importance of developing right view, even though it may appear to us upon reading some Suttas, that he did. Certainly, Anathapindaka was already a Sotapanna wasn't he? I think he knew Abhidhamma, only he never heard it the way it was expressed. But perhaps you have a different idea of what Abhidhamma really is? To my understanding, the way the teachings are laid out in the Abhidhamma and explained in light of the present moment, is the best teachings for us "dummies". The Suttas on the other hand, where one is required to understand context and look out for 'self view' is harder for us. What do you think? Again welcome, and hope you stick around. :-) Metta, Sukinder 58639 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door and sense door knowing rupa nilovg Hi Phil, Very good subject, I like your quotes. I try, but this Friday I go off to France for two weeks, and have to finish for Larry some Tiikas. To other friends: there are many questions worth while, but since the list is so busy I may not be able to take enough time for reacting. op 30-04-2006 05:39 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > > A Sujin: At this very moment can anyone separate the sense door > and the mind door which follows after bhavanga in between? Not yet. > And can kusala with panna arise only one doorway or six doorways? > Nina: Six doorways. ------- N: Phil, we learnt that also in a sense-door process there can be kusala javanacittas, four types of which are accompanied by paññaa, for without. Perhaps hard to understand. But, it is all according to accumulated condiitons what type arises at a particular moment. -------- A. Sujin: Now, at that moment of the sense-door what does > panna understand? > Nina: What can panna understand? At the sense door it can only > understand rupa, not nama. > A. Sujin : Right. But the vipasanna-nana can understand both > nama and rupa ------ N: vipassanaa ñaa.na, or insight knowledge, or vipassanaa. You asked about this. Your diacritic signs, by the way come out somewhat strange on computer. -------------- Nina : In the mind door process?c > A. Sujin: And so the kusala citta which arise through the > sense door process doesn?ft it understand rupa much clearer - when > it?fs vipassana nana it cannot arise just one doorway, like the > kusala with panna can understand the rupa clearly, but when it?fs > vipasanna-nana, vipasanna-nana can understand all namas and rupa > which arise one by one, right there, through each doorway, so panna, > at the moment of the sense door process, can understand the rupa > with vipasanna nana which is much more clearer than when it?fs not > vipasanna nana. > > --- > > Ph: Do I understand correctly that at vipasanna-nana, vipasanna- > nana (which is more powerful, different from ?gpanna?h) understands > not only the mind door, but all the sense door processes as well. > And the way it understands the rupa at the sense door is much more > clearer than the way panna can possibly know it when there is not > yet vipasanna-nana? -------- N: There are many moments of vipassanaa ñaa.na arising in different processes, one after the other. It understands ruupa that is experienced through sense-door and then through mind-door, and it understands naama, that has just fallen away. It arises in a mind-door process and therefore it can understand as they are both naama and ruupa, and their difference. --------- Ph: To repeat a sentence from above - ?gvipasanna-nana can understand > all namas and rupa which arise one by one, right there, through each > doorway.?h But there is only one nama or one rupa at any moment for > viapasanna-nana to understand, isn?ft there? This sentence makes it > sound as if vipassana-nana is lasting longer than a moment and is > understanding lots of namas and cittas arising. Doesn't vipasanna- > nana fall away in a moment like any other citta? ------- N: Yes. There are several moments of mind-door processes with vipassanaa ñaa.na. Only one dhamma at a time is understood. The processes succeed one another so fast, sense-door processes and mind-door processes. ------- > Nina: But I understand always that vipassana-nana... > A. Sujin: ...must be through mind door?c > Nina: Yeah > A. Sujin: For sure, it needs to be mind door, but is there no > sense door at all? > Nina: There is, there must be?c > A. Sujin: There must be, in order to understand both nama and > rupa, in order to understand rupa without the sense door process can > there be the understanding of rupa? > B. Nina: No. > > A. Sujin: So even it?fs through mind door, but the sense door > is always there too. > Because now the sense door process covers up the mind door process. > Is that right? Because there must be mind door process which follow > each sense door, after bhavanga, see how fast it is. ------ N: Ruupa, such as sound that is experienced by cittas arising in a ear-door process, is also experienced by cittas arising in a following mind-door process. But we do not realize this. Yes, we know that there is thinking arising later on, but this is different. At the moments of vipassanaa ñaa.na the mind-door is not covered up like now. -------- A, Sujin: So nobody knows > the nature of mind door at all, because all the time visible object > appears, and sometimes sound appears, but when it?fs vipasanna-nana, > the mind door process appears to vipasanna-nana, that this is the > world of mind-door process, and sense door is very tiny, because it > shows that the sense door must be only seven javana, if we don?ft > talk about the other citta, how fast and how short moment it is, so > by studying one knows that it?fs through sense door - which mind > door can understand the rupa through different sense door and also > the nama at that moment appears as no-one nobody, just the mind door > process. See? So how many processes? What processes are there mind > door or sense door when it?fs vipasanna-nanna? So nothing can hide > the mind door process when it?fs vipasanna-nana and it can > understand the rupa through the sense door and at that moment the > kusala with panna through the sense door process is there too. So > fast. > Nina: very complicated. > A. Sujin: You see, Khun Nina, when the mind door process does > not show up, who knows about the mind door process, but when the > mind door process shows up, mind door process all the time, and the > sense door process, how short it is.. > Nina: In between?c > A. Sujin: In between?cso it?fs the mind door process which can > understand both the nama and the rupa, but there must be the sense > door process as well, otherwise it?fs impossible to have the precise > understanding of the rupa as it is, how short it is, and at the > moment that it is sense door process, is that not the kusala with > right understanding through the sense door..too? ------ N: Phil, remember that the processes are so fast, and nobody can stop satipa.t.thaana from arising even in a sense-door process in between the mind-door processes. -------- > Nina: It must be. > A. Sujin: So it?fs like that, it shows up, it?fs not hidden, > like now, and that is through mind door, because mind door does not > understand only nama, it also understands rupa too, but since it > understands, it?fs vipasanna-nana through mind door which now > understands all types of reality there, nama and rupa, and when we > know that the sense door process also has kusala with panna?cwhen it > experiences only rupa?c. > Nina: So we can say satipatthana can arise at the sense door, at the > moments of vipasanna-nana. > A.Sujin: Why not? At that moment there is no doubt about sense door > and mind door, because it is understood that there must be sense > door?c.. -------- N: Phil, does this clarify somewhat? Nina. 58640 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Fabrizio (and Nina), > . > You talk about the danger of falling into wrong view; in fact I think that > the idea of developing sila first as a basis for Samadhi and Panna is one > with such a danger. Because we do not see the importance of developing > 'right understanding' from the very beginning, invariably one aims at > developing 'sila' regardless or not there is 'self view', hence the danger > of 'sila'battaparamasa. > > I think most people fail to appreciate the role of pariyatti in the > development of panna; this of course comes from not knowing what it really > is. Does one have less sila if one knows intellectually that this is > conditioned and beyond control? I don't think so. One may have the > accumulations for more sila and another may have little, but in both cases, > the development of right understanding, including intellectual understanding > of the fact of 'no self', can only help to condition more sila and other > kusala, don't you think? > > I think that as student of the Dhamma, at anytime from the very first step > on to the last, the focus should be on the development of Right > Understanding. Other levels of kusala including Dana, Sila and Samatha > Bhavana are to be encouraged, however Dana and Sila can be *developed* only > when there is Right Understanding of them, otherwise they at best only > condition what might be called a 'habitual' response. > > Besides without Satipatthana, one might only recognize the gross and some > medium akusala. On the other hand, even with right understanding of the > intellectual level, one may begin slowly to recognize some forms of akusala > otherwise mistaken for kusala. In other words, akusala sila is distinguished > from kusala sila. > > Indeed the Buddha taught according to the audience's level of understanding, > but I don't think he ever overlooked the importance of developing right > view, even though it may appear to us upon reading some Suttas, that he did. > Certainly, Anathapindaka was already a Sotapanna wasn't he? I think he knew > Abhidhamma, only he never heard it the way it was expressed. But perhaps you > have a different idea of what Abhidhamma really is? To my understanding, the > way the teachings are laid out in the Abhidhamma and explained in light of > the present moment, is the best teachings for us "dummies". The Suttas on > the other hand, where one is required to understand context and look out for 'self view' is harder for us. > What do you think? > > Metta, > > Sukinder Hallo Sukinder, Fabrizio, Nina Sukinder, you wrote: " You know that Sila is a conditioned reality and also that this can be with or without panna. Moreover, there is also what is called 'akusala sila'. Personally, I wish that I had better accumulations in this department of self-restraint, i.e. have more of the kusala and less of the akusala variety, but I don't and that's it. Do I then go about trying to develop more sila? That reminds me of a discussion I had with Jon some months ago about one aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path, and thus of sila: right livelihood. I stated that "right livelihood" is an example of ethical behavior. Sila (see translation below; especially the word 'manifested') has two aspects: the inner one (kusala - akusala) and the interpersonal one, said in another way: the factual behavior and the intention behind that behavioral act. I'm afraid you do (like Jon did) forget the behavioral aspect of sila. Metta Joop From Nyatiloka's Dictionary: síla: 'morality', 'virtue', is a mode of mind and volition (cetana, q.v.) manifested in speech or bodily action (s. karma). It is the foundation of the whole Buddhist practice, and therewith the first of the 3 kinds of training (sikkhá, q.v.) that form the 3-fold division of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), i.e. morality, concentration and wisdom. 58641 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana nilovg Dear Scott, there were several posts on labeling. This seems to me thinking, even when one does not expressively put one's thinking in words. I enjoyed your dialogue with Ken. Maybe I can add something. op 30-04-2006 04:18 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > > K: "Satipatthana arises as the result of long, long association with > the right sort of people (Dhamma friends) during which the true Dhamma > is repeatedly heard, discussed, considered and genuinely understood as > being applicable to the present moment." > > Interesting. As with all things, this too must have its conditions to > arise. It, like "meditation," is not a practise - but an event? ------- N: This is well said: meditation as an event. There is momentray concentration in vipassanaa, and we can see that it is an event. I think that you consider a lot conditions, very good. -------- > K: ...As with all of the Dhamma, the > Satipatthana Sutta describes dhammas that are arising now - or would > be arising now if the appropriate conditions were present. > S: Do you infer that most of the beings capable of experiencing > satipatthaana are extinct? I get the way of thinking that states that > one cannot control the arising of dhammas, such as satipatthaana. Of > course there must be satipatthaana the noun and satipatthaana the > verb. Is there? --------- N: No, not extinct, the Buddha sasana is still alive and we are so fortunate. We do not have to think of nound and verb, subject and object. A dhamma presents itself and then, if there are conditions for direct awareness and understanding, it can be the object, just for that moment, so that there can be a clearer understanding of its characteristic. It is either naama or ruupa. Dhammas show their own characteristics. Dhammas are elements and they have no interest as I just read in Vis. They arise because there are conditions for their arising. ---------- S: Let's say a desire to focus on dhammas arising arises. This would > have been conditioned. .... > Let's say the question is asked. What is the explanation for this? > This is not tongue-in-cheek, by the way, this is a real question. ------- N: Yes, also conditions. The Buddha said that asking questions and discussions is a condition for the growth of paññaa. He told the monks, there should be either dhamma talk or the ariyan silence. --------- > S: Okay. Can you tell me, please, what you think it is? I mean, > clarifying what you have already so kindly mentioned, of course. In the practise of satipatthaana, as I understand, one is to label that which one becomes aware of when it arises. I find this to be "heavy-handed" in practise. It gets in the way and feels totally contrived and unnatural. ----- N: well said, it is unnatural. --------- S: I do notice, though, that there is a quieter or more subtle "labelling" that I can experience if I don't speak loudly in my mind. -------- N: As I tried to explain above. There is no need to label anything, even silently. Characteristics appear and through sati there can be more familiarity with these. But, of course, sati is bound to be interspersed with many moments of thinking. Even that is conditioned and then we have an opportunity to understand what thinking is. I used to be confused about thinking and doubt. The late Ven. Dhammadharo said to me: then there can be awareness of doubt, doubt, doubt. We may regret that there is so much thinking and hardly any awareness of realities. Then there can be awareness of regret, regret, regret. Actually, no need to worry about any lack of sati or any dhamma that arises. Conditions, conditions. Is there no control? Yes, paññaa is a controlling faculty when it is developed more. Nina. 58642 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta nilovg Hi Tep and Herman, I compared with B.B.'s notes. These are thje seven purifications as described in the Visuddhimagga. Purity, visuddhi: this is always together with satipa.t.thaana. Thus, purity of siila: always together with satipa.t.haana. I am a bit short in my answer, but this is my understanding. I understand it if you see it otherwise. Nina. op 30-04-2006 00:56 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: >> Herman: >> Just a quick note to say that I agree with you. I think that MN 24 > backs you up as well. There is no sense of a spiral in 7 consecutive > relay chariots. >> If Sariputta was intending to convey a codependence between all > factors rather than one on the other, I am sure he would have used a > non-sequential analogy. > > Quote from MN 24 Relay Chariots : 58643 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:44pm Subject: The Noble Way ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Noble Life, which leads to and culminates in Nibbâna? A certain Bhikkhu once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, the Noble Life, the Noble Life, is it often said… What, Venerable Sir, is this Noble Life? And what is the final goal of this Noble Life? This Noble 8-fold Way, Bhikkhu, is the Noble Life; namely: Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) The destruction of Greed, the destruction of Hate, and the destruction of Ignorance: This is the final goal of the Noble Life… Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V [7-8] section 45:6 A certain Bhikkhu ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 58644 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:14am Subject: Re: Mind door and sense door knowing rupa philofillet Hi NIna > N: Phil, does this clarify somewhat? Yes, thank you - somewhat, and somewhat is enough for now. I will bookmark it to read it again and reflect on it now and then. Thanks for you time, Nina. Phil 58645 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta egberdina Hi Andrew, Long time no type (I think you are the Andrew I'm thinking of, Cooran Andrew?) On 30/04/06, Andrew wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Friend Herman (Nina, Andrew) - > > > > You hit the nail multiple times on its head when you wrote that MN > 24 > > was another evidence of the squential order in Siila-Samadhi-Paññaa. > > Of course, the seven chariots simile is a great one! > > > > > Herman: > > > Just a quick note to say that I agree with you. I think that MN 24 > > backs you up as well. There is no sense of a spiral in 7 consecutive > > relay chariots. > > > If Sariputta was intending to convey a codependence between all > > factors rather than one on the other, I am sure he would have used a > > non-sequential analogy. > > Hi Tep and Herman > > In the sequential chariot metaphor, which chariot do you see > yourselves as currently occupying? I am on a train with the destination clearly posted; total unbinding through lack of clinging. There seem to be a large number of people milling about who are not actually wanting to be on this train. I have no idea why they step on a train that goes where they don't want to go, and I have no idea whether you are one of them. But tell me, is the analogy of a sequential system or not? And why would anyone read an analogy of a sequential system as being other than sequential? Does it work that way? If not, how does it work, as you see it? I'll tell you if I get there :-) But in the meantime, I would suggest to all passengers to check the manifesto. And really, what's the deal with ADHD (see google) passengers, who stepped onto the wrong train, giving air to their views on concentration? 'Having few wants himself, he gives talks to the monks on fewness of wants. Contented himself, he gives talks to the monks on contentment. Secluded himself, he gives talks to the monks on seclusion. Unentangled himself, he gives talks to the monks on non-entanglement. Having aroused persistence in himself, he gives talks to the monks on arousing persistence. Consummate in his own virtue, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in virtue. Consummate in his own concentration, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in concentration. Consummate in his own discernment, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in discernment. Consummate in his own release, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in release. Consummate in his own knowledge & vision of release, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in the knowledge & vision of release.He is one who exhorts, informs, instructs, urges, rouses, & encourages his companions in the holy life.'" MN24 I am not for a moment suggesting that any of the above applies to you. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58646 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:22am Subject: Re: a "happy" proposition.. Sila is Sila -- there is no bad Sila indriyabala Hi Joop (and Sukinder) - I never heard of akusala sila ! Sila is sila when one's conducts (bodily, verbal, mental) do not violate the precepts and training rules (for monks) given by the Buddha. Thus the three good conducts are sila and they are based on kusala cetana. Akusala cetana always results in a bad conduct, and no educated Buddhists I know call a bad conduct 'akusala sila'. Remember what the Buddha taught Rahula about the three good conducts in MN 61(Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta)? Remember that the three good conducts fulfill the four foundations of mindfulness in SN 36.6 (Kundaliya Sutta)? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinder" > wrote: > > (snipped) > > I stated that "right livelihood" is an example of ethical behavior. > Sila (see translation below; especially the word 'manifested') has > two aspects: the inner one (kusala - akusala) and the interpersonal > one, said in another way: the factual behavior and the intention > behind that behavioral act. > I'm afraid you do (like Jon did) forget the behavioral aspect of sila. > > Metta > > Joop > > From Nyatiloka's Dictionary: > síla: 'morality', 'virtue', is a mode of mind and volition (cetana, > q.v.) manifested in speech or bodily action (s. karma). It is the > foundation of the whole Buddhist practice, and therewith the first of > the 3 kinds of training (sikkhá, q.v.) that form the 3-fold division > of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), i.e. morality, concentration and > wisdom. > 58647 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:42am Subject: Peace in Sri Lanka ! jwromeijn Dear all The civil war in Sri Lanka seems to be started again. Maybe there are readers of DSG, living in Sri Lanka and being a buddhist. In the past some Sinhalese monks were more nationalistic than they had to be, is my opinion. I don't know if they still are. Let's hope that there can come peace again in this for Theravadins so important country. And if it's possible, let the buddhists (monks and laypeople) do their utmost to make that peace possible. Perhaps we (forreighner) can help via 'Sarvodaya': http://www.sarvodaya.org/peace/recent-history/ With metta and karuna Joop 58648 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:30am Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana Taking Note indriyabala Hi Ícaro (and Mtheesha, Eric), It is nice to see your sincere, clear and simple answer. Language skills and a philosophical inclination (glib talk) can destroy simpleness & clarity in a person's speech. 'Keep It Simple, Stupid!' (KISS) is always a good reminder. >Ícaro: Think about the Theravada way for mind training: when you walk, you must think "I am walking. I am raising my foot". When you seat, you think " I am sitting down now" and so on. At meditation you must do the same, now with your body, feelings, mind, and phenomena. When you sits down seriously for meditation, your breathing rhytm becomes more slow, so you think "My breath is becoming short or long" ( that´s verbatim on Satipattahna Sutta)and,when you perceive that your mind becomes calm and still like a fat and green pasture, you will be at the Samatha gates. It´s like contemplating an external object, till your mind becomes naturally focused and still - one-pointed. Tep: The thinking, labelling or mental noting whatever you call it, is still vitakka-vicara. It prevents us from advancing to the mental state with unification and one-pointedness. Do you suggest we drop that thinking first before "mind becomes naturally focused and still - one-pointed"? If your answer is yes, then please tell me : how would you stop thinking? The mind is funny, the moment we stop the beneficial mental noting another kind of (uninvited)thinking will sneak in ! Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Hi Tep! > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tep: Please describe in your own words how you "take note" of the > > "samatha phase" of the anapanasati as described in the Satipatthana > > Sutta. Please give enough detail so that I can follow you without > > having to spend 300,000 calories asking 100 more questions. {:>) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > (snipped) 58649 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:32am Subject: Re: On conditions, God willing ... etc. nichiconn re:.. Sutta Interpretation, Is It Really Bad? c: probably. assume the worst & appeal to the authorities. re... Upaaya = strategy > Joop: > And the arrogance of some Abhidhammikas who see Abhidhamma texts for the highbrow monks and Suttas for the less intelligent people. Tep: I have got the same feeling too, Joop. connie: that is not "feeling". and anyway, what's that got to do with anything? are 'arrogance' and 'highbrow' words of respect or disdain? i think one can know sutta without knowing abhidhamma, but not the other way around, so please, two pieces for me & raahu! 58650 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:33am Subject: Re: study corner 427 The Faculties nichiconn > connie: exist? not-exist? did the teeth run down the middle of the > road? laughing. Tepster: Pardon me? I need a little help here .. teeth down the road ? :-)) ............... c: you know, "what woman?" running away from the husband who asked the thera if he'd seen her. it was the sound [laugh], i think, that caught his attention to begin with. bing! Tep: Can you give a little background information of the pitaka disclosure you are quoting from? Thanks. c: Says Nanamoli, our translator, <> there's more than the chariot/relay underlying the visuddhimagga. and is that to be taken literally? Joop wants to know. or is it a device of 'skillful means' for any who might delight in kind assistance. Tep: This pitaka disclosure talks about quite a few things: "suffering" that is conditioned by the various "things" like the 22 faculties; the roots of the unprofitables and their support; object for defilement; the cessation of suffering. Questions: In 381 & 382 - Pitaka Disclosure <<381. So there are seven faculties, neither more nor less (?), due to assuming an object for defilement, namely feeling of all [five kinds and] the femininity faculty and the masculinity faculty. 382. Herein, the eight faculties, namely the faith faculty (#194) ... down to ... the final-knower faculty (#221) are (5) the way leading to the Cessation of Suffering.>> - what are the other six faculties besides the faith faculty and the final-knower faculty? Why are they "the way leading to the Cessation of Suffering"? Are they same as the noble eightfold path?? connie: in 382 the eight are the faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration & understanding faculties plus the i-shall-come-to-know-finally-the-as-yet-not-finally-known, the act-of-final-knowing & the final-knower faculties. but i will send the rest of the 'pe' section on Conveying Ways of Entry in a separate post. meanwhile: "Pe" [The 5 Faculties] 520. Faith (saddhaa) has the characteristic of non-remorse; its manifestation is placing faith (saddahana); its footing is the four factors of Stream-Entry as stated by the Blessed One (S.v,196). i think this answers another question i 'felt' you didn't put well to someone else. Herman: And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition. (MN121) connie: non-empty of what? i'd just read: Pe 571. Herein, what is the meaning of void? The meaning of unsullied is the meaning of void, the meaning of non-constraint (?), the meaning of non-torment, the meaning of standstill. This is the meaning of void. 58651 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:33am Subject: Pe on Conveying Ways of Entry nichiconn 366. Herein, what is the [Mode of Conveying] Ways of Entry? Ways of entry can be found in six ideas. In what six? In (1) the Categories, (2) the Elements, (3) the Bases, (4) the Faculties, (5) the Truths, and (6) the [two moods of] Dependent Arising. There is no Thread, whether verse or prose-exposition, that does not exhibit one or other of these six ideas. For the whole extent of the Teaching is about either the Categories or the Bases or the [Faculties or the] Truths or Dependent Arising. 367. (1) Herein, it is the feeling category that, among the five categories, is the footing for lust, hate, and delusion. Herein, there are three kinds of feeling in that [feeling category, wherein] the pleasant [feeling] has the approach with joy, the painful has the approach with grief, and the neither-painful-nor-pleasant has the approach with onlooking-equanimity. Again, whatever is felt there [among these three kinds of feeling] is (5) the Truth of Suffering (see S.iv,134). 368. Now as to the determinations category among the categories: herein, a body occurs for one [who has acted] negligently. And that [negligent action] is included among determinations; and action is a way of entry to the factors of being in two ways. And the three [99] kinds of determinations - determinative acts of merit, determinative acts of demerit, and determinative acts of imperturbability (see S.ii,82) - are a root-cause for all kinds of [personalities] with lust, though not for the lust-free; And likewise the determinative acts of hate. It is one not without lust who "chooses and determinatively acts"; it is one without lust who "niether chooses nor determinatively acts" (cf. #78; S.ii,65). Just as a hot thunderbolt falling on a log or a tree or elsewhere splits and burns it, so does choice with lust choose and determinatively act; as a cold (?) thunderbold neither splits nor burns it, so lust-free choice neither chooses nor determinatively acts. 369. Herein, there is one among the five categories which belongs to the kind of physical frame without faculties, namely the perception category. 370. (2) Herein, as the Elements (#66), there are the eighteen elements. Herein, when the ten elements having form (#371) are being taught, the form category can be demonstrated, which is (5) the Noble Truth of Suffering (#16). Also when the six bodies of consciousness (M.i,53) with the mind as seventh ( ) [are being taught], there the consciousness category can be demonstrated, which is (5) the Noble Truth of Suffering. The idea element is the meeting place of the different ideas, and that idea can be demonstrated by cause and outcome and fruit (see ##202, 375), and by function and word, whichever applies, whether [that idea element is] profitable or unprofitable or undeclared (Dhs. p.1) or undetermined (Dhs #1086). 371. (3) Of the twelve Bases, ten bases have form [namely the first five pairs, and] these can be demonstrated as (5) the Noble Truth of Suffering, and as the form category, while the mind base can be demonstrated as the consciousness category [which is also] (5) the Noble Truth of Suffering. The idea base is the meeting-place of the different ideas. 372. (4) Herein, ideas belonging to those with faculties can be demonstrated among those with faculties, and ideas belonging to those without faculties can be demonstrated among those without faculties, [100] and they can be made ways of entry indirectly (see #380 for "faculties"). 373. And as (2) the idea element, so (3) the idea base can be sought out; for what the idea element is that the idea base is too, neither less nor more (see Vbh.73, 89). 374. (6) Herein, there is Dependent Arising in three ways, there is that in four ways, and there is that in two ways. 375. Herein, there is Dependent Arising in three ways as cause, fruit, and outcome (##202ff., 370). Then ignorance, determinations, craving, and assuming, are the cause; consciousness, name-and-form, the sixfold base, contact, and feeling, are the fruit; being, birth, and ageing-and-death are the outcome. 376. How in four ways? As cause, condition, ripening, and outcome, ignorance and craving, determinations and assuming: these are the cause. Consciousness is name-and-form's condition, and name-and-form when it arises is [a condition] for the sixfold base, [and so] contact and feeling; these are the condition. Being is the ripening. Birth and ageing-and-death are the outcome. 377. How is there Dependent Arising in two ways? Ignorance, determinations, craving, and assuming, are (5) Origin. Consciousness, name-and-form, the sixfold base, contact, feeling, being, birth, [ageing-and-]death are (5) Suffering. 378. But since with cessation of ignorance, cessation of determinations, etc., these, as the opposites, are (5) the other two Truths. 379. Therefore whatever Dependent Arising can be made a way of entry by, that is what it can be demonstrated by. 380. (4) Likewise the twenty-two faculties. [Herein,] the twelve faculties, that is, the eye-faculty, ... down to ... the grief faculty, are (5) Suffering. The masculinity faculty and the femininity faculty are a footing for craving. For as soon as the male has to do with women, it then becomes subject to lust in oneself: this is I-making. Being thus lustful, it seeks [an object] externally: this is my-making. Likewise the female. [101] Herein, the pleasure faculty and the joy faculty are subordinate to the masculinity faculty. When the man's ideas of greed have their purport fulfilled, they increase the unprofitable; but if his purport fails to be fulfilled, then the pain faculty occurs in him and the grief faculty, and also hate and a root of unprofit increases. But if he keeps onlooking-equanimity in being, the onlooking-equanimity faculty has parallel occurence with the masculinity faculty, and non-delusion as a root of profit increases. 381. So there are seven faculties, neither more nor less (?), due to assuming an object for defilement, namely feeling of all [five kinds and] the femininity faculty and the masculininty faculty. 382. Herein, the eight faculties, namely the faith faculty (#194) ... down to ... the final-knower faculty (#221) are (5) the way leading to the Cessation of Suffering. 383. Of the twelve [faculties (#380)], the five faculites [beginning with that of the eye] are a footing for lust for sensual desires, the mind faculty is a footing for lust for being, the five faculties [beginning with forms] are a footing for lust for form, and the femininity faculty and masculinity faculty are a footing for the description in terms of creatures. Herein, whatever faculty a Thread, whether verse or [prose], can be made a way of entry by, that is what it can be demonstrated by. 384. That is how [ways of entry can be found] in the cases of the Categories, Elements, Bases, [Faculties] Truths, and moods of Dependent Arising (#366). This is the Mode of Conveying Ways of Entry. 58652 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:32am Subject: boostin' nichiconn dear icaro, fly www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Satipatthana/js-index.htm & enjoy the service. i keep thinking to tell you i'm happy again, too. Also on ABT: "Illustrator" (text & translation); read ch iii, The Thirty-Two-Fold Aspect (Dvatti"msakaara"m)... peace, connie 58653 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi Andrew (and Herman) - I appreciate your two messages, and I am going to respond to both. I am pleased to see my (friendly and unfriendly) friends here are now interested in the issues related to 'sila' as the foundation for 'samadhi' & 'paññaa'. # 58630 : > Tep: It is clear. It is simple English. It says that virtues must be > well established before the development (purification) of > consciousness and understanding. Andrew: I think you are giving mixed messages here. On the one hand, you state that the English is simple and clear. On the other hand, you say that "development" must be read as "purification". I see the point you are making (and it has validity IMO), but it's not the case that you are reading the English 'at face value'. You're not doing that at all but imposing another meaning on the normal English terms. I don't have a problem with that as long as we acknowledge we are doing it. The suttas are full of 'normal' Brahman terms being given a different Dhamma meaning. Tep: Oooh ! I am surpised to see you "running for the hills" simply because of just one word ! The Visuddhimagga is about purifications: the seven purifications (starting from virtues) are about the development of siila, samadhi and paññaa. Therefore, my parenthesized "development" behind purification is simply to remind the reader of that fact. ...................... >Tep: > Virtue (siila, morality, precepts and training rules) is the ground >on which the wise man stands. Andrew: Agreed - a wise man (let's say a sotapanna) has perfect sila. But what about us? You rightly point out that it's not a case of us having to perfect sila first before we do anything else. Conditionality doesn't work like that. In the AN, the Buddha expressly pointed out how incredibly fast the mind changes - so fast even he couldn't come up with an appropriate simile to describe it. Think of all the mindstates that would therefore be involved in "doing" an exercise in sila like declining an offer to have illicit sex? Tep: It is good that you asked "what about us?". I suggest we seriously develop siila NOW through 'indriya samvara' (see the Kundliya Sutta), while strictly observing the Five Precepts all the time. Read at least one major sutta every night to familiarize yourself with other teachings like the Dependent Origination and the Four Noble Truths. Of course, you can practice 'mindfulness immersed in the body' along with the other three foundations of mindfulness. But I doubt if you may make any real progress until after your three conducts all have become three good conducts ! Hey! I know my "advice" is totally opposite to Khun Sujin's, and I know you will ignore it. {:>)) ............ >Andrew: Re Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition, I think the quote I gave from Bh. Dhammapala is talking about 'genuine or natural morality' (pakatisila) whereas I think you are mainly refering to 'prescribed morality' (pannatti-sila). Yes, I realise that the word pannatti makes you run for the hills and it's a distinction you probably don't accept. If so, that is why I think this thread has become a bit blurred and frustrating for you. But I agree with James - you should follow your own understanding and emphasis and not lose sleep over what you read on DSG! (-: Tep: Do not stick to 'nimitta' and 'anubyañjana' and all kinds of labels, otherwise you will be full of useless 'papañca'. ============= #58637: >Andrew: In the sequential chariot metaphor, which chariot do you see >yourselves as currently occupying? >Does it work that way? If not, how does it work, as you see it? Tep: It is more important to pay attention to the speaker of the Relay Chariots first. Who was he? Let me give you an analogy to show why it is very important to know who gave that talk on the relay chariots. Say you were interested to learn about the 'Special Theory of Relativity' and a friend (Tep) gave you his notes that had been prepared from the seminal paper by the great scientist Albert Einstein (who won a Nobel Price in Physics because of this revolutionary paper that shattered the Physics community). Being a smart person but had no rigorous training in Physics, so sadly you could understood only a few pieces of the special theory no matter how many times you read and reread it. And that upset your ego, so you concluded that the theory did not work. You even doubted the kind friend about his understanding of the special theory (Does it work that way? If not, how does it work, as you see it?. Ven. Punna Mantaniputta was a great arahant who was highly respected by the Chief Disciple Sariputta Thera. Ven. Punna was also the monk who ordained Ananda, another great arahant himself! And the great arahant Ananda expressed his great appreciation for Ven. Punna Mantaniputta in SN XXII.83. I have found Ven. Punna Mantaniputta's teaching to Ananda about 'not-self' very clear and greatly beneficial, so I like to share it with you : Ven. Ananda said, "Friends, Ven. Punna Mantaniputta was very helpful to us when we were newly ordained. He exhorted us with this exhortation: 'It's with possessiveness, friend Ananda, that there is "I am", not without possessiveness. And through possessiveness of what is there "I am", not without possessiveness? Through possessiveness of form there is "I am," not without possessiveness. Through possessiveness of feeling... perception... fabrications... Through possessiveness of consciousness there is "I am," not without possessiveness. "'Just as if a young woman — or a man — youthful, fond of adornment, contemplating the image of her face in a mirror, pure & bright, or in a bowl of clear water, would look with possessiveness, not without possessiveness. In the same way, through possessiveness of form there is "I am," not without possessiveness. Through possessiveness of feeling... perception... fabrications... Through possessiveness of consciousness there is "I am," not without possessiveness. [SN XXII.83] Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > (snipped) 58654 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:58am Subject: Re: a "happy" proposition.. Sila is Sila -- there is no bad Sila jwromeijn Hallo Tep (and Sukinder) Tep: "I never heard of akusala sila ! Sila is sila when one's conducts (bodily, verbal, mental) do not violate the precepts and training rules (for monks) given by the Buddha. Thus the three good conducts are sila and they are based on kusala cetana. Akusala cetana always results in a bad conduct, and no educated Buddhists I know call a bad conduct 'akusala sila'. Joop: I tried to use the language of Sukinder, kusala and akusala are not the terms in which I think (you know I don't think in Pali or English but in Dutch) So I'm the first educated Buddhist (educated in what?) that calls 'bad conduct' 'akusala sila' But more important: do you agree with me that sila is not only something inside a 'person' but also conduct (I used the term 'behavior')? Because I got the impression that Sukinder (with Jon) is onely interested in the inside, not in the moral behavior like for example good livelihood. Metta Joop 58655 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi, Nina and Herman and Andrew (the list goes on !)- I am very glad to read your email below : >Nina: I compared with B.B.'s notes. These are thje seven >purifications as described in the Visuddhimagga. Purity, visuddhi: >this is always together with satipa.t.thaana. Thus, purity of siila: >always together with satipa.t.haana. > I am a bit short in my answer, but this is my understanding. I >understand it if you see it otherwise. Tep: Gladly, I have seen "it" very clearly ! By the way, what have I seen? Let me tell you ... 1. Visudhi (purity) by means of three good conducts is the purification of virtues, visuddhi siila. Without solid good conducts that are supported by the solid sensing retraint(indriya samvara), there is NO WAY satipatthana(right mindfulness) may arise (later). However, we have to agree that mindfulness is not yet satipatthana (as the present-moment vipassana of kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma). 2. Fulfilment of satipatthana is supported by the three good conducts: see the Kundliya Sutta that I again quote below (thanks to Chris' typing). "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the three kinds of good conduct developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." [endquote] Tep: Hence, while the monk is developing good conducts to immediately replace bad conducts whenever they arise, he is training (developing) the mindfulness! He must have mindfulness enough to notice that a bad conduct cannot be allowed (to arise or to continue) and that he must replace it with the opposite good conduct right now. The more practice he has undergone, substituting bad conducts by good ones, his siila is becoming more and more purified, and as the consequence his mindfulness is getting more and more established! That's why our Great Sage said affirmatively: "it is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." But, the right mindfulness will ONLY come after further practice according to the Satipatthana Sutta. The Kundliya Sutta also says the same thing as follows: "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the for establishments of mindfulness developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment? "Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. "He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind …phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. It is in this way that the four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. [endquote SN 36.6, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi] So I must say that the Relay Chariots Sutta is in great agreement with SN 36.6 and the Satipatthana Sutta (as well as several other suttas). Thank you for providing the information to support the importance of siila that makes possible the "fulfilment of satipatthana". Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep and Herman, (snipped for pasting above) > Nina. > op 30-04-2006 00:56 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > >> Herman: > >> Just a quick note to say that I agree with you. I think that MN 24 > > backs you up as well. There is no sense of a spiral in 7 consecutive > > relay chariots. > >> If Sariputta was intending to convey a codependence between all > > factors rather than one on the other, I am sure he would have used a > > non-sequential analogy. > > > > Quote from MN 24 Relay Chariots : > 58656 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:06am Subject: Re: On conditions, God willing ... etc. jwromeijn Dear Connie I'm glad you agree with me (and Tep). As you know, I explained Tep the sankskrit term upaya (skilful means) and said it has a danger (and many advantages). Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > re:.. Sutta Interpretation, Is It Really Bad? > c: probably. assume the worst & appeal to the authorities. > > re... Upaaya = strategy > > Joop: > > And the arrogance of some Abhidhammikas who see Abhidhamma texts for > the highbrow monks and Suttas for the less intelligent people. > > Tep: I have got the same feeling too, Joop. > > connie: that is not "feeling". and anyway, what's that got to do with > anything? are 'arrogance' and 'highbrow' words of respect or disdain? i > think one can know sutta without knowing abhidhamma, but not the other way > around, so please, two pieces for me & raahu! > 58657 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:18am Subject: Re: a "happy" proposition.. Sila is Sila -- there is no bad Sila indriyabala Hello Joop, my friend - Thank you , thank you for your reply. >Joop: > But more important: do you agree with me that sila is not only > something inside a 'person' but also conduct (I used the > term 'behavior')? Because I got the impression that Sukinder (with > Jon) is onely interested in the inside, not in the moral behavior > like for example good livelihood. > Yes, Joop, yes I agree with you. Siila is virtues, and siila is morality. Siila is seen by the three good conducts(bodily, verbal, mental) and right livelihood. A monk with purified virtues is devoid of immorality or wrong doings-- he is cleansed inside and outside. The following sutta quote says it all!! Devoid of wrong-doing in thought, word, or deed, he's called a person of admirable virtue: the monk conscientious. Well-developed in the qualities that go to the attainment of self-awakening, he's called a person of admirable qualities: the monk unassuming. Discerning right here for himself, in himself, the ending of stress he's called a person of admirable discernment: the monk with no fermentation. Consummate in these things, untroubled, with doubt cut away, unattached in all the world, he's said to have abandoned the All. [Iti 96] Best wishes, Tep, your friend. =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Tep (and Sukinder) > > Tep: "I never heard of akusala sila ! Sila is sila when one's > conducts (bodily, verbal, mental) do not violate the precepts and > training rules (for monks) given by the Buddha. Thus the three good > conducts are sila and they are based on kusala cetana. Akusala cetana > always results in a bad conduct, and no educated Buddhists I know > call a bad conduct 'akusala sila'. > > Joop: I tried to use the language of Sukinder, kusala and akusala are > not the terms in which I think (you know I don't think in Pali or > English but in Dutch) > So I'm the first educated Buddhist (educated in what?) that > calls 'bad conduct' 'akusala sila' > 58658 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:00am Subject: Metta 7 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: behaviour. nilovg Hi Joop, Tep, op 30-04-2006 10:07 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: I'm afraid you do (like Jon did) forget the behavioral aspect of sila. ------ N: Siila is conduct through speech and bodily action. So it is all about our behaviour. It may be kusala or akusala, Tep. But there is also siila through the mind-door. Satipa.t.thaan is siila. Guarding the sense-doors is siila. Jhaana is siila, lokuttara cittas are siila. Joop, the earthly path you were treading recently, was Pieterpad? Nina. 58660 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the monk's siila. nilovg Hi Tep (and Kom), your post was a condition for me to look at some texts concerning the Vinaya, and I want to share these with others. Meanwhile, I do understand that you have a different point of view. I remember that you said that a monk who is new may just follow the rules. I will not answer your post point by point this time. I also read your other posts, some also addressed to me. ------- The first question in the Roman Catholic Catechism used to be (perhaps modernized now): Why are we in this world? Answer: to serve God and in this way to go to heaven. Kusala siila is kusala siila, no matter what religion one belongs to, but the Buddha's teaching on siila is entirely different. Remember the ten reasons for the rules of training, quoted by Kom, among them: For the welfare of the Sangha... for the restraint of the aasavas...for the establishment of true Dhamma... This is very important. The monk should see danger in the slightest faults. Remember, animal talk is forbidden. Talk on kings, on wars, etc. It is wrong when the citta is akusala. He should know: what is akusala, what is kusala, what is citta, what are the aasavas, the hindrances. What are the conditions to develop the supreme siila, supreme samaadhi, supreme paññaa, leading to arahatship. For all this, right understanding is to be developed. Siila is not the blind following of a set of rules. A monk needs a teacher and preceptor. Kom mentioned that in his temple a great deal of time was spent with the Abhidhamma. The preceptor can explain all about cittas and their conditions. We all have so many defilements, we need right understanding to know when there are lobha, dosa and moha so that we learn the disadvantages of them. As to speech, we have to learn what types of cittas motivate these. I quote from Mettaa 6: The Exhortation to the Pa.timokkha begins thus: We need much patience to develop more understanding of cittas, of the many kinds of defilements, of the ways to develop kusala, to have good speech. Gradual Sayings, (V, 214, Book of Tens, Ideas of a Recluse, 106, Causes of wearing out: <...For one who has right view, monks, wrong view is worn out, and those divers evil, unrpofitable states which come into being because of wrong view-those also are worn out in him; while those divers good rpofitable states, due to right view, reach fulness of culture (bhaavanaa-paaripuuri.m)....> The same is said about the other Path fators, right knowledge and right release. We see the connection of right understanding and the eradication of akusala. I think we should see this connection whenever we consider siila. Tep, you quote: 1. 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a bhikkhu and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i.13) N: It begins with: a wise man, we should not overlook this. Someone who has wisdom. What a tangle we are in because of ignorance and craving. 'As a bhikkhu and sagacious' it can be disentangled. All those who develop the eightfold Path are in a sense bhikkhu, according to the Co. and Subco. to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta. But the ordained monk leads the brahmacariya in all its fullness, leading to arahatship. Kom asked me about this goal, but he left. Many suttas point to this goal. Nina. op 29-04-2006 18:12 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > Hi, Nina (Fabrizio) - > > It is not getting more complicated -- I think the issue Fabrizio has > raised is simple but seeing the issue clearly is difficult when there > is a self to be protected <'I cannot be wrong.'>. > >> N: >> I found that this clarified the point that the Tripartie division of > this great work was for teaching purposes, not for telling people: > first siila, then samaadhi, then vipassanaa. > > Tep: The importance of siila being the first of the training (sikkhaa) > to be developed is clearly not for teaching purpose. > "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this > deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high > fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings > high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes > freed from all cankers (aasava) namely, from the sensuous canker > (kaamaasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker > of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance > (avijjaasava)."[from Nyanatiloka Dictionary] > > Tep: Patimokkha (training rules) and virtues (morality) as "siila" > really are the foundation -- the beginning, the very first step of > this Buddha-sassana. Understanding and concentration at the non-ariyan > level are, of course, cannot be separated from the purification of > virtues (Even a kindergarten kid needs both concentration and > understanding to succeed in school.). But the higher concentration > and understanding at the level of Purification must be supported by > the virtues that are strong enough to condition the three good > conducts in order to fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness [see > Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6]. > > ......... >> N: In fact in one of the paras, the Vis. stated that this order was > for teaching purposes. This was in Ch XIV where it explained about > 'order' under different aspects, with different examples. > > Tep: I think you are trying to avoid the important fact that there is > the specific order beginning at siila; it is the foundation of the > Dhamma-vinaya. Read the suttas! The Vism. sometimes contradicts > itself. For example, read the first paragraph of Vism. Chapter I. It > states as follows: > > 1. 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a bhikkhu and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i.13) > > Tep: It is clear. It is simple English. It says that virtues must be > well established before the development (purification) of > consciousness and understanding. It does not say, though, that the > purification of understanding is "isolated from" the consciousness > purification. It doesn't say either that purification of virtues stops > before the next purification begins. But the fact that virtues are the > ground, the foundation is very, very clear. > > Virtue (siila, morality, precepts and training rules) is the ground on > which the wise man stands. Read this very first chapter further you'll > find the following : > > Vism. 7. ".. 'Established well in virtue' : standing on virtue." > ................ > >> N: Do you remember that we talked about Howard's explanation of the > spiral wise development? And you agreed that we could not say: first > this then that and take the factors in isolation, if I rightly > understood you. > When talking about siila we have to deal with many aspects of it, as > we did before with MahaaCunda sutta (was it this one or another one?). > > Tep: Yes, I do remember that spiral thing. And I also remember my > comment that the spiral is at the middle of the development. This is > because of the inseparable concentration and understanding while we > are continuing to purify sila further. Do you remember that we also > discussed a few discourses about the new monks and that they must be > taught to develop siila first? > > The "many aspects" of sila is one issue, the importance of sila and > vinaya at the begining is another issue. > ............. > >> N: You just uttered some feelings of frustration about this > discussion, but this may not be necessary. At least I hope I can do > something about these. > > Tep: Not at all. I have not been frustrated about your discussion with > Fabrizio -- I just informed and warned him! He was frustrated in the > message #58561 : > >>> F: >>> Unfortunately your view that the Buddha suggested to develop Sila > at the same time with Samadhi and Panna is not rooted in anything in > the Canon and so it is technically eretic - of course one would > mantain some truths are not captured by the teaching of the Buddha and > this position is totally acceptable; even if I do not personally > recognize myself in this latter view. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ======= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> >> Hi Tep, >> it is all more complex. > (snipped) >> N: I never meant to say: siila cannot arise without right understanding. >> But, for its purification understanding is the condition. It can > develop and even samatha and vipassana, even enlightenment are > classified under siila by the Visuddhimagga. I foiund that this > clarified the point that the Tripartie division of this great work > was for teaching purposes, not for telling people: first siila, then > samaadhi, then vipassanaa. In fact in one of the paras, the Vis. > stated that this order was for teaching purposes. This was >> in Ch XIV where it explained about 'order' under different aspects, > with different examples. >> Samaadhi in samatha needs paññaa, but paññaa of the level of samatha. >> > (snipped) >> ---------- >> Nina. >> -------------- >> This quote >>> actually states that virtues comes first, then non-remorse arises, >>> then gladness, ... concentration, dispassion, ... direct knowledge and >>> enlightenment all result from the very, very first "virtues" having >>> been developed. >> > > 58661 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pe on Conveying Ways of Entry nilovg Dear Connie, thank you very much, for the quotes from the Netti, the Guide. Some people may wonder what determination is. Determination stands for sankhaara, and here for abhisankhaara in the Dependent origination. Nina. op 30-04-2006 15:33 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > And the three [99] kinds of > determinations - determinative acts of merit, determinative acts of > demerit, and determinative acts of imperturbability (see S.ii,82) 58662 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:55am Subject: Re: (was) mindfulness/sati (i) ... Seeing them as "Separate" indriyabala Hi Nina - Seeing the dhammas as "separate" -- what does it really mean? It is the seeing of all conditioned dhammas without attachment so that they don't come together to form into concepts e.g. man, woman, me mine, my self. SN XXXV.80 Avijja Sutta : ----------------------- "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes (Note2) as something separate. (Note 3) Notes (Translator's): 2. Or: "all objects." 3. Aññato: literally, "as other." The Commentary explains this as "in another way" or "differently" from the way ordinary beings view things, but that does not fit with the syntax of the Pali, nor does it really answer the monk's question. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 27-04-2006 00:53 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > >> N: > >> I appreciate it that you considered Dhamma while seeing a beautiful > > woman. Even pleasure and attachment can be realized as conditioned naamas. > > > > Tep: Thank you very much, Nina. Yes. Pleasure and attachment can be > > contemplated as conditioned naamas. However, I think it is also useful > > to be aware of the dhammas in the present moment as "separate" in > > order to avoid attachment to the "coming together" of naamas and ruupas. > ------- > Yes, when we think of a whole of a person thinking is a reality, but person > is a concept. > > T: True. Seeing a visible ruupa with right understanding (which > > penetrates "those different characteristics by insight knowledge") is > > much more advanced. However, the understanding that immediately sees > > "these dhammas (voice, body, femininity) are separate" should be more > > refined than intellectual understanding (book knowledge, not > > experiential). What is your thought? > > ..................... (snipped) 58663 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: behaviour. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > ... > Joop, the earthly path you were treading recently, was Pieterpad? > Nina. > Hallo Nina No that trail was the Twenthepad. The Piedertad like many (in Neteherlands and France)we started but nver (till now) finished. Hope that the NEP I come further Metta Joop 58664 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 0:52pm Subject: Re: citta nyama, elements. We Live in Two Different Worlds indriyabala Hi, Nina (Fabrizio, Herman, James)- I did not see this messgae # 58539 when it was posted on Friday 4/28. It is an important one so I am responding to it now. >N: >When hearing just now, you do not always at every minute define what is heard, like: this is water sound, this is car sound etc. There can also be moments of experiencing just sound, no further thought about it. In that way we can get used to the characteristic of sound, we can learn the difference between sound and an idea about sound such as thinking of a voice. Tep: How often do those "moments (with no thoughts)" arise say in 30 minutes of your observation? Do you mean "experiencing" an ultimate reality or a concept in those moments? Or are you talking about the theory again? I have not been convinced yet about a benefit, if any, from such a learning about characteristics of sound (or visible object) in order to understand "the difference between sound and an idea about sound". How can such understanding be the same as "seeing the dhammas the way they really are", when most of the time you do not have a unified and un-distracted mental state? Is this "observation" a vipassana for direct knowing of dukkha? How can such observation abandon ignorance so that "clear knowing" may arise? [for clear knowing, see SN XXXV.80, Avijja Sutta] I am sorry for the many questions; you made it sound so fictional. .................. > > Tep: No, we cannot do anything about the > "adverting-consciousness", and we don't have to -- just leave it > alone. The goal of the Buddhist's practice is the cessation of dukkha, > and the practice is according to the Noble Eightfold Path which has > nothing to do with citta niyama. This may sound (to some uninstructed > readers) like a rejection of the Abhidhamma, but I know you do not > think like that. ***** N: As to what you write about citta niyama, on the contrary, I find that this clarifies our life and the way we act, speech or think. We cannot avoid the regular order of cittas, citta niyama, and because of the succession of cittas without interval, different tendencies are as it were carried on from moment to moment. Tep: It is fictional because, as you have said many times, the cittas arise and pass away so fast that no-one can really experience them. How many nano-seconds are contained in each moment to moment? .................. >N: >Citta niyama helps us to see whatever occurs as elements. The whole Book of the Discourse on Elements, Dhaatukathaa, classifies all cittas, cetasikas and ruupas we learnt about in the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, as khandhas, aayatanas and elements. This book is a great reminder that we cannot escape elements. Everyone has to find his own way, what is helpful for one person may not for someone else. You find it helpful to analyse what is a compound into separate entities or to develop foulness. Tep: Forget about "the books", please. Anyone can read them. But the books do not help us attain insight knowledges of the ultimate realities! Tell me about your real experiences (if any) of citta niyam, Nina, please. ................... >N: >I find it helpful to consider (but not with direct understanding yet) that only one object can be experienced at a time. Tep: If that object is a paramattha dhamma, not a concept, then you are practicing what you have preached. Otherwise, you are living in two different worlds at the same time. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > op 27-04-2006 14:52 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > > > >> N: One begins to understand that voice is not a dhamma, but sound is. > > Sound is a paramattha dhamma, voice is not. Voice is a concept that is > > the object of thinking. > > > > T: While you say voice is a concept, not a paramattha dhamma, I say > > voice is the "coming together" of sound, ear, ear-consciousness and > > perception that follows. Instead of the term "object of thinking", > > can I say voice is the object of perception? > > ...................... > N: There is perception or saññaa with each citta, with hearing, with > thinking. But you are perhaps referring to recognizing. > > When hearing just now, you do not always at every minute define what is > heard, like: this is water sound, this is car sound etc. There can also be > moments of experiencing just sound, no further thought about it. In that way > we can get used to the characteristic of sound, we can learn the difference > between sound and an idea about sound such as thinking of a voice. > (snipped) 58665 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana ken_aitch Hi Scott (and Nina), I was very pleased to see Nina's answers to your questions. My own attempts had become laborious and convoluted: it was a relief to delete the lot of them. Referring to satipatthana, your final question was: ------------- > Can you tell me, please, what you think it is? I mean, clarifying what you have already so kindly mentioned, of course. ------------- I think satipatthana is the entire Dhamma. More correctly, I think vipassana is the entire Dhamma, but satipatthana is enough for now. When the young Sariputta first met a Buddhist monk he asked him to explain his master's teaching in brief. The arahant monk was able to reduce it to four lines, the first two of which were enough to enlighten Sariputta to the stage of Stream-entry: "Of things that proceed from a cause, Their cause the Tathagata has told" Does that do it for you? Would you agree that the Buddha taught conditioned dhammas and the conditions by which dhammas arose? Ken H 58666 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:30pm Subject: Re: the monk's siila. Skillful Side-stepping ? indriyabala Hi Nina, As my concluding remark: thank you again for finding time to reply to most of my emails last week. Although we have not been successful in getting our points across, when all things are considered it has not been totally disappointing. [More like ordering a main dish but ending up intead with a side dish (that I did not order), however it was much better than leaving the restaurant with an empty stomach.] You might wonder why I turned more active lately. Well, it was because there were some disagreeable (mildly itching) issues that I wanted to address to the best of my ability before becoming non-involved again (what Sarah's called a sabbatical leave). >N: >Meanwhile, I do understand that you have a different point of view. I remember that you said that a monk who is new may just follow the rules. Tep: It is now beyond just different "points of views", Nina. It is more like two different galaxies that do not have a working intergalactic communication. ................ >N >Remember the ten reasons for the rules of training, quoted by Kom, among them: For the welfare of the Sangha... for the restraint of the aasavas...for the establishment of true Dhamma... Tep: It was too bad you turned away from the strong sutta evidences I had presented. Whose words are more important for our welfares than the words of the Buddha and the Arahants? ................ > >N: > >Tep, you quote: > >1. 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > >Develops consciousness and understanding, > >Then as a bhikkhu and sagacious > >He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i.13) > > >N: It begins with: a wise man, we should not overlook this. Someone who has wisdom. What a tangle we are in because of ignorance and craving. 'As a bhikkhu and sagacious' it can be disentangled. All those who develop the eightfold Path are in a sense bhikkhu, according to the Co. and Subco. to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta. But the ordained monk leads the brahmacariya in all its fullness, leading to arahatship. Kom asked me about this goal, but he left. Many suttas point to this goal. Tep: That's a skillful side-stepping; and you seem to have forgotten the main issue already. Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Kom), > your post was a condition for me to look at some texts concerning the > Vinaya, and I want to share these with others. Meanwhile, I do understand > that you have a different point of view. I remember that you said that a > monk who is new may just follow the rules. > I will not answer your post point by point this time. I also read your other > posts, some also addressed to me. > ------- > The first question in the Roman Catholic Catechism used to be (perhaps > modernized now): Why are we in this world? > Answer: to serve God and in this way to go to heaven. > > Kusala siila is kusala siila, no matter what religion one belongs to, but > the Buddha's teaching on siila is entirely different. > (snipped) 58667 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:13pm Subject: Vism.XVII,74 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 74. (5) Proximity condition is the same as 'contiguity condition'. The difference here is only in the letter, there is none in the meaning; just as in the case of the words 'growth' and 'continuity' (Ch. XIV, 66), etc., and as in the case of the 'terminology dyad', 'language dyad' (Dhs. 1306), and so on. ******************** 74. yo anantarapaccayo, sveva samanantarapaccayo. bya~njanamattameva hettha naana.m, upacayasantatiisu viya adhivacananiruttidukaadiisu viya ca. atthato pana naana.m natthi. 58668 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta corvus121 Hi Herman Some rushed comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > But tell me, is the analogy of a sequential system or not? And why would > anyone read an analogy of a sequential system as being other than > sequential? Well, that's the heart of the matter, isn't it? The ancient Romans used sequential stories as aids to memory (i.e. the sequentialism was not the point of the exercise at all - see Rhetorica ad Herennium). And medieval European artists painted connected scenes out of sequence but ranked according to another system (eg. all pictures showing the king came first, even if they were out of sequential order). So that's my first question: is the sequence the point of it all? > Does it work that way? If not, how does it work, as you see it? > > > I'll tell you if I get there :-) I'll look forward to hearing. > But in the meantime, I would suggest to all passengers to check the > manifesto. And really, what's the deal with ADHD (see google) passengers, > who stepped onto the wrong train, giving air to their views on > concentration? > > 'Having few wants himself, he gives talks to the monks on fewness of wants. > Contented himself, he gives talks to the monks on contentment. Secluded > himself, he gives talks to the monks on seclusion. Unentangled himself, he > gives talks to the monks on non-entanglement. Having aroused persistence in > himself, he gives talks to the monks on arousing persistence. Consummate in > his own virtue, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in > virtue. Consummate in his own concentration, he gives talks to the monks on > becoming consummate in concentration. Consummate in his own discernment, he > gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in discernment. Consummate > in his own release, he gives talks to the monks on becoming consummate in > release. Consummate in his own knowledge & vision of release, he gives talks > to the monks on becoming consummate in the knowledge & vision of > release.He > is one who exhorts, informs, instructs, urges, rouses, & encourages > his > companions in the holy life.'" MN24 > > I am not for a moment suggesting that any of the above applies to you. A clever riddle. Good, I like riddles - but don't expect me to solve it. (-: Best wishes Andrew 58669 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta corvus121 Hi Tep Thanks for sharing your understanding. Your unfriendly friend, Andrew (-: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi Andrew (and Herman) - > > I appreciate your two messages, and I am going to respond to both. > I am pleased to see my (friendly and unfriendly) friends here are now > interested in the issues related to 'sila' as the foundation for > 'samadhi' & 'paññaa'. > 58670 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear Ken, Thanks for this! Very clear and concise. K: "I think satipatthana is the entire Dhamma. More correctly, I think vipassana is the entire Dhamma, but satipatthana is enough for now. "When the young Sariputta first met a Buddhist monk he asked him to explain his master's teaching in brief. The arahant monk was able to reduce it to four lines, the first two of which were enough to enlighten Sariputta to the stage of Stream-entry: 'Of things that proceed from a cause, Their cause the Tathagata has told' "Does that do it for you? Would you agree that the Buddha taught conditioned dhammas and the conditions by which dhammas arose?" I would totally agree with the above statement. Were one to experience the world as it arises and falls away - were one to have satipatthaana arising - one would indeed be fortunate. Sincerely, Scott. 58671 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi Andrew, It was a surprise for me to see such a short reply from you ! > > Hi Tep > > Thanks for sharing your understanding. > > Your unfriendly friend, Andrew (-: > You're welcome any time for more information. Perhaps, an easy way to become my "friendly friend" is to try starting your email with "Dear Tep" ! Yours very truly, Tep ==== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Andrew (and Herman) - > > > > I appreciate your two messages, and I am going to respond to both. > > I am pleased to see my (friendly and unfriendly) friends here are now > > interested in the issues related to 'sila' as the foundation for > > 'samadhi' & 'paññaa'. > > > 58672 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:11pm Subject: Re: On conditions, God willing ... etc. indriyabala Hi, 'Cunnie' (and Joop), > Connie: > re:.. Sutta Interpretation, Is It Really Bad? > c: probably. assume the worst & appeal to the authorities. Tep: Nah, the authorities are on the same side with the accusers. .................... > > re... Upaaya = strategy > > Joop: > > And the arrogance of some Abhidhammikas who see Abhidhamma texts for the highbrow monks and Suttas for the less intelligent people. > > Tep: I have got the same feeling too, Joop. > > connie: that is not "feeling". Tep: Are you a linguist or a abhidhamma scholar, or both? :-) Feeling n. 7. opinion, sentiment : it is my feeling that the bill should passed. Macmillan Dictionary. ............... Warm regards, Tep ====== 58673 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:26pm Subject: Re: study corner 427 The Faculties indriyabala Hi, Connie - Thanks for the reply that has lots of information. > c: you know, "what woman?" running away from the husband who asked the thera if he'd seen her. it was the sound [laugh], i think, that caught his attention to begin with. bing! > Tep: Yeah, you're right. I wish your witty replies would turn me into an arahant somehow some time soon. ................ > > > Tep: Can you give a little background information of the pitaka disclosure > you are quoting from? Thanks. > > c: Says Nanamoli, our translator, < "Pi.taka-Disclosure") and the Nettippakara.na (translated "The Guide") set forth a method, the same in both cases, for composing commentaries on the Buddha's Utterance as recorded in the Suttas. ...its object is simply to avoid wrong exegesis that may unwittingly lead to contradictions and to straying out of the Teaching as a whole.>> Tep: It was a great objective. But has there been any violation? ................. > > >Tep: > > - what are the other six faculties besides the faith faculty and the > final-knower faculty? > > Why are they "the way leading to the Cessation of Suffering"? Are they same as the noble eightfold path?? > > connie: in 382 the eight are the faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration & understanding faculties plus the > i-shall-come-to-know-finally-the-as-yet-not-finally-known, the > act-of-final-knowing & the final-knower faculties. > > but i will send the rest of the 'pe' section on Conveying Ways of Entry in a separate post. > Tep: Thanks. ............. > meanwhile: "Pe" [The 5 Faculties] 520. Faith (saddhaa) has the > characteristic of non-remorse; its manifestation is placing faith > (saddahana); its footing is the four factors of Stream-Entry as stated by the Blessed One (S.v,196). > > i think this answers another question i 'felt' you didn't put well to someone else. > Tep: I don't have a clue what question you are referring to ! ........... Sincerely, Tep ===== 58674 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:43pm Subject: A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" upasaka_howard Hi, all - The points I would like to make are the following: 1) Bhikkhu Gunaratana proved to be a delightful, sweet, intelligent, articulate, and charismatic young man of 78. Truly impressive. 2) I learned that I am well suited to standing meditation. It seems to have several advantages for me. 3) Bhante said several things that I found of interest. One of those is that he is one of those people who thinks that the use of 'dhamma' with 'anatta' instead of 'sankhara' (as with anicca and 'dukkha') in the tilakkhana is not significant, and is just a variant. He believes that all the tilakkhana pertain to conditions, with nibbana not included in what they are about. The other matter of interest pertains to the paths and fruits. He does NOT consider path consciousness to be immediately followed by fruition consciousness, and what he points to as evidence is the talk of "the 8 persons" in several suttas, and very specifically to the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta of the Majhima Nikaya which talks about making offerings to the 8 persons. (It is kind of difficult, was his point, to make an offering to a person of a type who will be such a person for only a millionth of a second - for example, a person who has achieved stream entry path but not yet stream entry fruit!) The relevant portion of the sutta is the following: _________________________ 379. [Ananda, there are offerings made to fourteen kinds of individual beings. What are the fourteen? ... (Offerings to buddhas & paccekabuddhas) An offering made to an arahat disciple of the Tathagata is the third kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is practising to attain Arahatta Fruition (i.e. one who has attained Arahatta Magga) is the fourth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is an Anagami is the fifth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is practising to attain Anagami Fruition (i.e. one who has attained Anagam Magga) is the sixth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is a Sakadagami is the seventh kind of offering made to an individual. offering made to one who is practising to attain Sakadagami Fruition (i.e. one who has attained Sakadagami Magga) is the eighth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is a Sotapanna is the ninth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is practising to attain Sotapatti Fruition (i.e. one who has attained Sotapatti Magga) is the tenth kind of offering made to an individual. __________________________ Bhante went into detail about the practicing for fruitions. For example, stream entry is marked by belief in efficacy of rite and ritual being uprooted, then further practice, typically over a long period of time, leads to eventual uprooting of skeptical doubt, and then finally self view is uprooted, at which point is attained the fruition of stream entry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58675 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Defining 'Mental Phenomena' upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/29/06 8:38:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > > Hi Sarah, Howard and countless others, > > I would appreciate your assistance in the following: > > > >>S: What exactly is experienced when you think 'wetness' is experienced? > >>==================== > > Something other than just coldness. I don't know how to answer > >"what" > >it is. It *seems* to be what we uniquely call "wetness". Of course, there > >is > >the possibility that it is a combination of tactile experiences > >perceptually > >summed up (pa~n~natti) as "wetness". But it *seems* to be unique. > > > I am only thinking about the model here, but I am wondering if there are > different categories of nama/rupa for eg sound that is heard as a > consequence of non-mental, and sound that is hear as a consequence of mental > origination. There is sound that depends on the ears, that can be modified > by altering the orientation of the ears, by shielding the ears etc, and > there is sound that is produced mentally only, like tinnitus, which cannot > be altered in a physical way. Are both types of hearing considered the same > in the model? > > > > -- > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ========================= I'm not sure about tinnitus. I suspect it is truly heard. But there is also the matter of dream sounds, sights, tastes, odors, and bodily sensations. I personally can hardly distinguish them *in kind* from waking sounds, tastes, odors and bodily sensations experienced, but they are not *quite* the same. They are fuzzier and differ in other hard-to-pinpoint ways. I think they are not rupa, but are very excellent mental replications, better than memories. But this may not be what you are after. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58676 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:13pm Subject: Do mind objects have an intrinsic nature? robmoult Hi Nina and all, Paragraph 6 of the Vibhanga describes rupa as being of either "inferior" or "superior". Paragraphs 37 – 45 of the Sammohavinodani clarifies that rupa has an intrinsic nature of being undesirable (anittha), moderately desirable (ittha) and extremely desirable (ati-ittha). Paragraph 12 of the Vibhanga uses the same words to describe vedana as being of either "inferior" or "superior". The text says, "Bad feeling is inferior; good and neither-good-nor-bad feeling is superior. Good and bad feeling is inferior; neither-good-nor-bad feeling is superior. Painful feeling is inferior; pleasant feeling and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is superior. Pleasant and painful feeling is inferior; neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is superior." My first question is, "is this paragraph not contradictory with respect to good / pleasant feeling, in one sentence calling them superior and in the following sentence calling them inferior?" Paragraphs 18, 24 and 30 of the Vibhanga describe sanna / sankhara / vinnanna as being of either "inferior" or "superior" by referring back to the associated feeling. Paragraph XIV, 128 of the Visuddhimagga provides the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of the five types of feeling. As expected, "pleasure" / "pain" have the characteristic of experiencing desirable / undesirable tangible object. This is expected as we understand that rupa has an intrinsic nature. What surprised me is that this paragraph of the Visuddhimagga provided the characteristic of "joy" / "grief" as experiencing a desirable / undesirable object (the text is silent on the nature of objects for which equanimity applies. My second question is, "am I correct interpreting the Vibhanga and Visuddhimagga that mind objects have intrinsic nature?" Metta, Rob M :-) 58677 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Defining 'Mental Phenomena' egberdina Hi Howard, Welcome back. It was good to read your report on the "retreat" as well. > > > > > I am only thinking about the model here, but I am wondering if there are > > different categories of nama/rupa for eg sound that is heard as a > > consequence of non-mental, and sound that is hear as a consequence of > mental > > origination. There is sound that depends on the ears, that can be > modified > > by altering the orientation of the ears, by shielding the ears etc, and > > there is sound that is produced mentally only, like tinnitus, which > cannot > > be altered in a physical way. Are both types of hearing considered the > same > > in the model? > > > ========================= > I'm not sure about tinnitus. I suspect it is truly heard. But there > is > also the matter of dream sounds, sights, tastes, odors, and bodily > sensations. I personally can hardly distinguish them *in kind* from waking > sounds, > tastes, odors and bodily sensations experienced, but they are not *quite* > the same. > They are fuzzier and differ in other hard-to-pinpoint ways. I think they > are > not rupa, but are very excellent mental replications, better than > memories. > But this may not be what you are after. > > Thanks for the above. Yes, it is what I was after. It was good that you brought up dream states as well, I've been wondering how they are classified. Another one I've been interested in is the phenomenon known as binaural beats. If two sounds of slightly different frequencies (difffering by less than 30 Hz) are played one each through the channels of a stereo headset, the mind will produce a beat equal to the difference of the two frequencies. This phenomenon is made use of in products that allow entrainment of brain waves ie altering the state of consciousness using external sound stimuli. These products may be useful for people who find they just cannot meditate. They certainly are succesfully used in the treatment of ADD and ADHD disorders. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58678 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:37pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Howzitgoin? James: Just fine. Thanks for asking. > > May I please respond to something you mentioned to Ken? > > J: "I guess the only truths in what you wrote are that you are a non- > meditator and that you are not currently practicing satipatthana. > Since this is true, why should anyone follow your advice?" > > I'll stick my neck out (a wee bit)and reveal my gut reaction to Ken's > post (and Ken, this is just my projection you realise). I got the > feeling that Ken was somewhat despondent and hopeless about his > practise and finds some of what is spoken of here to be difficult to > take. (Sorry Ken, if this misses the mark, but it does fit for me at > times - hence the designation of "projection.") James: I think that there is a lot of truth to what you say. In the past, I have described this group of people as "disgruntled meditators". They have all had meditation experience in the past (except for Nina I think?) and it didn't go according to their expectations. Now, they blame the practice rather than themselves. > Sometimes the dhamma is hard to take. A lot of notions about practise > are sharply confronted here by the extreme and deep anatta that winds > up being expounded. I go through these moments of thinking that I > can't do anything then if there is no control and it all depends on > conditions. I also experience moments of elation or happiness about > the Dhamma at times. James: Various ups and downs we all experience. If you read the suttas with an open mind, and forget what you read in DSG, you shouldn't have any worries about the hopelessness of practice expounded in this group. > > Oh well, that's me. I didn't mind Ken's response, although, you are > right in a way, I didn't get an answer I expected. James: It's good that you didn't mind his response. You should hear from all sides. Of course, as the Buddha's attorney, I very much minded his response ;-)). > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James 58679 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:44pm Subject: Re: A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > The points I would like to make are the following: > > 1) Bhikkhu Gunaratana proved to be a delightful, sweet, intelligent, > articulate, and charismatic young man of 78. Truly impressive. > 2) I learned that I am well suited to standing meditation. It seems to > have several advantages for me. > 3) Bhante said several things that I found of interest. One of those > is that he is one of those people who thinks that the use of 'dhamma' with > 'anatta' instead of 'sankhara' (as with anicca and 'dukkha') in the tilakkhana is > not significant, and is just a variant. He believes that all the tilakkhana > pertain to conditions, with nibbana not included in what they are about. Hello Howard, all, Thanks for your post about your retreat. Interesting that Ven Gunaratana doesn't think one of what most would call the central teachings of buddhism is significant ... the Ti-lakkhana. "Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still remains a firm condition, an immutable fact and fixed law: that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject ot suffering, that everything is without a self: (A. III, 134) What would Bhante say was 'rite and ritual' in this day and age - I'm fairly certain he wouldn't include meditation practice either standing, sitting, or walking? And there are no people imitating dogs etc as in the Buddha's time. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 58681 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:03pm Subject: Re: A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" onco111 Hi Howard, Interesting comments... > H: other matter of interest pertains to the paths and fruits. He does NOT consider path consciousness to be immediately followed by fruition consciousness Bhante Vimalaramsi also argued this point on dsg a year or two ago. > H: Bhante went into detail about the practicing for fruitions. For > example, stream entry is marked by belief in efficacy of rite and ritual being > uprooted, then further practice, typically over a long period of time, leads to > eventual uprooting of skeptical doubt, and then finally self view is uprooted, at > which point is attained the fruition of stream entry. How does this square with the standard doctrine that with stream entry the three fetters are shattered? Metta, Dan 58682 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:04pm Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > Dear James, (part 2) > > Howzitgoin? (I mean now.) James: It's still going fine. Thanks for asking. :-) > > You'll be thrilled to know that something else came to me while > thinking about your response. > > Lately its become apparent to me that I've been trying too hard to get > all the Pali terms for things straight (not a bad endeavour in and of > itself, mind you.) I've missed the fact that there are many things > arising in me that would likely qualify as worthy and that don't need > labels to be there. James: Yeah, I agree with you. It isn't necessary to label everything. Actually, labeling comes from discursive thinking and too much discursive thinking leads to craving. As for myself, I haven't had much interest in learning extensive Pali. I don't see the point now that most everything is translated into English. The only reason now to learn extensive Pali would be so I can sound knowledgeable and impress people in a Buddhist Internet group. The only way I could possibly be more pathetic is if I learned Klingon in order to impress people in a Star Trek Internet group. ;-)) > > For instance, all my years in psychoanalysis (that's me on the couch, > mind you) and my training as a psychotherapist have enabled me to > notice my feelings and responses to events with a precision and > accuracy that only practise can allow. I'm good at it. I don't need > a Pali term to be good at it. It so happens that there are some Pali > terms for these things (don't ask me what they are) but this doesn't > change the fact that these things arise in me. James: I would think that your experience as a psychotherapist (and in psychoanalysis) would be of great benefit to you in the practice of mindfulness. You would be able to notice more workings of the mind because that is your job! However, you would have to unlearn the various psychoanalytical theories so that you can approach your awareness with a clear mind. > > Learning the Dhamma seems different for me as this becomes apparent. > Conditions have already been in place for these things to arise. I > guess it behooves me to learn what it is called and what good can come > of it. My point is that it is already here. > > Its cool, in a way, that so many things prior to my coming formally to > the Buddha and the Dhamma for refuge were preparatory. This post to > you was conditioned by a lot of factors, for example. > > Anyway, for what that was worth . . . James: Thanks for the post. I think it was worth a lot. It demonstrates that we are all learning all the time. Life is a process and the dhamma is a process. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James 58683 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:20pm Subject: The Deathless ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the removal of the Three Evil Roots and what is the Deathless? A certain not well known Bhikkhu once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, the removal of Greed, of Hate, and of Ignorance, is it often said… What, Venerable Sir, is the real meaning of these terms? This removal of Greed, Hate, & Ignorance is a description of the Dimension of Nibbana… The final elimination of the mental fermentations is spoken of just like that. Then that Bhikkhu asked the Blessed One: Venerable Sir, the Deathless, the Deathless, is it often said… What, Venerable Sir, is this Deathless and what is the way leading the Deathless? The destruction of Greed, the destruction of Hate, and the destruction of Ignorance: This is called the Deathless. The Noble 8-fold Way is the way leading to the Deathless; that is: Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:8] section 45:7 A certain Bhikkhu ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 58684 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your report. There are a few problems. Fruition-consciousness is vipaakacitta and it does not eradicate any defilement. Ven. Bhikkhu says doubt and self view are uprooted later on, but only magga-citta eradicates. This is strange, because there are no other maggacirras arising before fruition. Nina. op 01-05-2006 04:43 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Bhante went into detail about the practicing for fruitions. For > example, stream entry is marked by belief in efficacy of rite and ritual being > uprooted, then further practice, typically over a long period of time, leads > to > eventual uprooting of skeptical doubt, and then finally self view is uprooted, > at > which point is attained the fruition of stream entry. 58685 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana nilovg Dear Scott, op 01-05-2006 02:11 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > I would totally agree with the above statement. Were one to > experience the world as it arises and falls away - were one to have > satipatthaana arising - one would indeed be fortunate. -------- N: But it is possible to develop understanding that realizes the arising of the world and its falling away. The world is the five khandhas. And satipa.t.thaana can arise! Nina. 58686 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was) mindfulness/sati (i) ... Seeing them as "Separate" nilovg Hi Tep, I do not agree with the note about aññato: the Co is clear. Through clear knowledge the monk sees dhammas now in a new way, we could say. Not like before with ignorance. Nina. op 30-04-2006 20:55 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > SN XXXV.80 Avijja Sutta : > ----------------------- > > "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is > abandoned and clear knowing arises?" > > "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are > unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of > attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every > thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees > all themes (Note2) as something separate. (Note 3) > > Notes (Translator's): > > 2. Or: "all objects." > > 3. Aññato: literally, "as other." The Commentary explains this as "in > another way" or "differently" from the way ordinary beings view > things, but that does not fit with the syntax of the Pali, nor does it > really answer the monk's question. 58687 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: citta nyama, elements. We Live in Two Different Worlds nilovg HI Tep, What I say here is not about theory. I like to help myself and others in considering dhammas in the right way, with understanding of the level of right pariyatti as a foundation for satipa.t.thaana, that is all. Citta niyama: it can only be really understood by insight, but also now we can begin to understand that akusala cittas arise on account of what is seen, or heard, or touched, or that thinking is done with akusala cittas, even right now. These react to the object that is experienced. However, it is not possible to catch these at the actual moments they arise. But we can begin to have more understanding of different types of citta. No need to count nano seconds. Nina. op 30-04-2006 21:52 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > > Tep: How often do those "moments (with no thoughts)" arise say in 30 > minutes of your observation? Do you mean "experiencing" an ultimate > reality or a concept in those moments? Or are you talking about the > theory again? 58688 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the monk's siila. Skillful Side-stepping ? nilovg Hi Tep, why did I speak about Vinaya? To try to clarify more what siila is. The connection between siila and satipa.t.thaana. Did you read Vinaya? These are the Buddha's own words, very important, we should not side step these words. Reading the Vinaya helps to get the right spirit of the monk's siila and also have more understanding in general what kusala siila is. Very valuable also for laypeople. I cannot now answer all your points, sorry. Since I leave Friday I have to finish a few things before that. In a mail you spoke about uninvited thoughts and you put this very well. This has to do with siila, but siila together with understanding of realities. Last night I read something about this subject in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and this made me think of you: When we truly understand that it is citta that thinks, it helps us to see it as a condiitoned element, and this again helps us not to have more akusala when worrying about our thoughts. The second factor of the eightfold Path I like to translate as right thinking, not as right intention or determination, that is a wrong translation. When there is right understanding of naama and ruupa, there is at that moment thinking with renunciation, nekhamma, it is right thinking. A commentary has explained that all kusala dhammas are renunciation, nekhamma. Renunciation has everything to do with siila. You renounce akusala. This is purity of siila. Do you see the connection? At the moment of right mindfulness and right understanding, there is higher siila, higher samaadhi and higher paññaa. Nina. 58689 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:18am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) In order to understand the function of mindfulness it is helpful to know the danger of the absence of mindfulness. The definition of “Heedlessness” in the Book of Analysis (Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, Analysis of Small Items, § 846) reminds us of the danger of akusala and the value of mindfulness which guards the six doors. We read: * "Therein what is “heedlessness”? Wrong bodily action or wrong verbal action or wrong mental action or the succumbing and repeated succumbing of consciousness to the five strands of sense pleasures or not working carefully, not working constantly, working spasmodically, being stagnant, relinquishing wish (desire-to-do, chanda), relinquishing the task, non-pursuance, non-development, non-repetition, nonresolution, non-practising, heedlessness in the development of good states; that which is similar, heedlessness, being heedless, state of being heedless. This is called heedlessness." * When we are not mindful we succumb repeatedly to the “five strands of sense pleasures”. The doors of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and the mind-door are not guarded. We are working “spasmodically”, or we are stagnant; we are lazy as to the development of right understanding. We cannot force the arising of mindfulness, but when we see the danger of akusala it can condition non-forgetfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment. When mindfulness arises there is no “relinquishing of the task”, namely the task of the development of right understanding. ***** (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 58690 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Andrew Andrew wrote: >AT: I was reading BB's translation of parts of the AN last night and >read in the 5's chapter that "tranquility" is one of the 5 "helpers" >for right view (the others were things like wide learning, discussion >of what is learnt ... samadhi was not on the list). > >Do you know the Pali term being translated as "helpers"? > I'm grateful to Nina for her suggestion of 'upakaarako' for 'helper' (I would have no idea myself!). 'Tranquillity' in the Bh bodhi translations usually refers to the metal factor of 'passadhi', one of the cetasikas that accompanies each moment of kusala citta. The 5 "helpers" mentioned in the sutta are: - virtue - wide learning - discussion (of what was learned) - tranquillity - insight I think, as is often the case with sets of factors, these can be seen as mutually supporting factors, so that e.g., learning and discussion supports the development of insight, and insight supports the development of sila and helps one appreciate more the value of learning and discussion. >I'm not so naive to think that this will bridge the gap between you >and Eric as the passage can be read in any number of ways - as >a "doing" (get tranquil first) approach or as an understanding of the >present approach. > ;-)) ;-)) >Just interested ... > Thanks for bringing up the sutta. Jon 58691 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Kamma as Taught by the Buddha [re-sent] jonoabb Hi Tep indriyabala wrote: >Hi, Jon (and all)- > >... Of course, it is not possible even for two >Buddhists living in the same country to agree 100% on every aspect of >the Dhamma. So, anyone should feel free to correct me, anytime. > > Well each of us explains things as we see them, nothing more than that. Personally I find that going through the process of expressing my views in writing, and then having them questioned by others, makes for a lot of useful consideration of the teachings. And of course I learn a lot from the views expressed by others, too. A recent post of Andrew's referred to the five 'helpers' of right view mentioned in AN V, 25. These are: - virtue - wide learning - discussion (of what was learned) - tranquillity - insight Discussion of what has been heard and understood is a condition for even better understanding. And of course that better understanding in turn supports virtue and wider learning, and helps one appreciate even more the value of discussion. So the factors are all mutually supportive (Howard's 'spiral process'). >>Jon: >>I thought you were using 'clear knowledge' as a >>translation of one of the Pali terms referring to 'panna' (such as >>'sampajanna'). >> > >Tep: I like that "such as" which implies that there are several >meanings/levels of paññaa. > > Well of course there are several levels of panna, but I was referring to the several terms for panna. These would include nana, vipassana, samma ditthi, vimansa (as mentioned in one of Nina's recent Vism Tika posts), sampajanna, vijja, dassana and veda (these last 2 from the Psm as quoted by you below), to name just a few. >The great Arahant Sariputta in the Patisambhidamagga defined >dassana(seeing)as the 'meaning of the understanding faculty' >(paññindriya) [Psm I, 26] > >The following passage [Psm V, 57] may delight most DSG members. > >"When one who has great resolution gives attention as impermanent, he >acquires the faith faculty. When one who has great tranquillity gives >attention as painful, he acquires the concentration faculty. When one >who has great wisdom(veda) gives attention as not self, he acquires >the understanding faculty." > >[Note: veda means insight, revelation, wisdom] > Thanks for this quote. As I understand it, the 'faculties' are a high level of development of the respective factors. >>Jon: >>If panna of the level of insight knowledge arises, the path is being >>developed, as I see it. >> >> > >Tep: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. when concentration (the 8th >path factor) is well developed (with the other matured seven path >factors as support), then right knowledge(vijja) arises? > >"In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right >resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right >action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right >livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right >mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In >one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right >knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed >with eight factors, and the arahant with ten." - see MN 117. > > It seems that the 2 additional factors mentioned here in MN 117 are factors that arise after the magga citta of the arahant (only). A footnote in the Bh Bodhi translation of this sutta at p. 1324 MLDB reads: "The additional two factors possessed by the arahant are right knowledge, which can be identified with his reviewing knowledge that he has destroyed all the defilements, and right deliverance, which can be identified with his experience of liberation from all defilements." In the sutta, the section which your passage is taken and the preceding 5 sections all begin with the words (Bh Bodhi transl): "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first?" This is a reference to panna of the NEP, I believe. >>Jon: >>The fourth noble truth relates to the development of insight >>knowledge, so yes. The third noble truth (Nibbana) is not seen until >>actual enlightenment, but I would assume that as panna becomes more >>highly developed, a better idea of what is meant by 'Nibbana' is gained. >> > >Tep: I don't see paññaa as the combination of the third and the fourth >noble truths. > Nor do I (and I didn't mean to suggest anything like that). >The fourth noble truth alone consists of sila, samadhi >and paññaa. > Yes, in the sense that every path moment is said to be a moment of sila, samadhi and panna by virtue of the individual path factors involved. >However, I agree that "as panna becomes more highly >developed, a better idea of what is meant by 'Nibbana' is gained". >That is, 'right release' is gained; it is the 10th factor for the >arahant [MN 117]. > Yes, but as explained above right release is not a path factor. Jon 58692 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is breath a rupa? jonoabb Hi Phil I'm familiar with the passage you're referring to here (from India 2001). I agree it's a little difficult to follow the line of thinking. What is clear to me from this and other discussions I've listened to is that, while there is no rupa called breath, the term 'breath' as used in the texts has a very specific meaning, namely, a certain rupa that is conditioned by citta, and is not necessarily what we notice as air passing in and out through the nose. (I also got the impression that this particular discussion was a continuation of an earlier discussion between A. Sujin and Kom, so there may have been some background that is not apparent from the recording.) Jon Phil wrote: > Hi Nina > > I was listening to a talk today. Kom was asked by Acharn Sujin if >the breath can be object of awareness. He said no, as I would have, >because the object of satipatthana must be a paramattha dhamma, and the >dhammas that are rupa when it comes to breath are three of the four >great elements (temperature, hardness, motion) I thought, not breath. >There is no paramattha dhamma "breath" is there? > > But the talk seemed to end up with Acharn Sujin saying that breath >could be object of awareness. She asked "is breath a rupa" and Kom >said "no." as I would have. Then she asked "can breath be aware of >anything" and Kom said "no" as I would have. Then she said that since >it cannot be aware of anything, it is a rupa. But what about concepts? >they can't be aware of anything, but they are not rupa... > > 58693 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:53am Subject: Samatha and vipassana 1 jonoabb Hi Eric I thought it was about time this thread had its own subject heading ;-)) ericlonline wrote: >E: Actually different objects. I forget the words, >samathanakanna (sp?) and I cant remember the other. >But it seems the commentaries expounded on this >difference in object and then postulated 2 different >types of meditation when in fact there was not. >Then the Burmese ran with Vipassana. So, this was >why I was asking to do a search in the Nikayas and >Vinaya. To see if Vipassana and Samadhi was more >closely linked than in later traditions. I really >am not sure and was asking for your help. Again, >no big deal if you dont have the time. > Are you by any chance thinking of samatha-yaanika and sukkha-vipassaka? Here are the definitions of those 2 terms from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictinary': samatha-yÄ?nika ('one who takes tranquillity as his vehicle'). This is a name for a person who not only has reached insight but also one or the other of the absorptions, to distinguish him from one 'who practises only insight' (sukkha-vipassaka). sukkha-vipassaka ('one supported by bare insight') is the commentarial term for one who, without having attained any of the meditative absorptions (jhÄ?na), has realized only by the support of insight (vipassanÄ?) one or several of the supermundane paths (ariyapuggala). In Vis.M. XVIII, he is called suddha-vipassanÄ?-yÄ?nika, as distinguished from 'one who has tranquillity as vehicle' (samathayÄ?nika). If this is what you have in mind, we can discuss further. Jon 58694 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:03am Subject: Samatha and vipassana 2 jonoabb Hi Eric ericlonline wrote: >Lets go back to Transcendent Dependent Origination. >Where do you want to say insight (vipassana) starts? >The Sutta says after jhana is developed and not before. >Maybe you feel it starts with reasoned faith after hearing >the teaching? But I would not call this intellectual >cogitated thought (no matter how sublime) insight. > > I think you're referring to the Upanisa Sutta SN 12:23. OK, that sutta gives the following order of factors, with each being the 'proximate cause' for the next (Bh Bodhi translation in his CDB at p. 553): Suffering (dukkha) Faith (saddha) Gladness (pamojja) Rapture (piti) Tranquillity (passaddhi) Happiness (sukha) Concentration (samadhi) Knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathabhutañanadassana) Revulsion (nibbida) Dispassion (viraga) Liberation (vimutti) Knowledge of destruction in regard to destruction (asavakkhaye ñana) Two interesting points from the footnotes to the text in the BB translation: 1. In footnote 68, discussion of the meaning of 'upanisa' (proximate cause) and how it is to be distinguished from 'upanissaya' (decisive support condition) which refers solely to something which plays a strong causal role. 2. In footnote 69, BB quotes the commentary as saying that 'concentration' here refers to the jhana used as a basis for insight ('paadakajjhaanasamaadhi'). Clearly, I think, the sutta is not to be read as saying that each factor can only be developed when the preceding factor has been fully developed (that would not make much sense, would it?). To my reading, it describes the different wholesome factors that come into play as insight is developed in the particular case of a person who attains enlightenment with jhana as basis. >No, I have started with TDO and if there is no >jhana then there is no "the knowledge and vision >of things as they really are". Probably what you >would refer to as the apprehending of 'reality'. >The continuous seeing of the momentariness of >namas and rupas. > > This interpretation of the sutta is not given in the Bh Bodhi translation, either in the footnotes or in his general introduction. Do you have a source for it? As I understand it, jhana is mentioned here because it refers to the person who attains enlightenment with jhana as basis. Jon 58695 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] a "happy" proposition sarahprocter... Hi Dan (Herman & all), --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > D:As for a seclusion/solitude pre-requisite, do you mean physical > > > seclusion or a mental seclusion from the anxiety-born-of- > expectation? > > > > > > H: I think the two can mutually condition each other. The currency > of society > > is language. If you are in a place, physically or mentally, where > you are > > driven (obliged) to talk, or think, you are not in a place of > solitude. > > > > Physically, no; mentally, perhaps. I'm thinking of the sutta in which > a group of bhikkhus approach the Buddha: "We're concerned about > Bhikkhu so-and-so. He won't walk into town with anyone; he won't do > chores with anyone; he won't speak to anyone; he won't blah-blah-blah > with anyone." Buddha confronts Bhikkhu so-and-so, who replies: "I am > practicing solitude and seclusion." Buddha tells him, "So you are. So > you are, in a certain sense. But the bhikkhu who is practicing REAL > seclusion has his mental states secluded from defilements regardless > of the external circumstances." I can't find the sutta now, but it is > an interesting one. (Maybe someone can help me with a reference...). .... Sarah: Yes, a good summary of a fine sutta: The Thera Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya 21:10) The Buddha said to him (B.Bodhi transl): "Is it true, Elder, that you are a lone dweller and speak in praise of dwelling alone?" "Yes, venerable sir." "But how, Elder, are you a lone dweller and how do you speak in praise of dwelling alone?" "Here, venerable sir, I enter the village for alms alone, I return alone, I sit alone in private, and I undertake walking meditation alone. It is in such a way that I am a lone dweller and speak in praise of dwelling alone." "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed. It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person ‘one who dwells alone.’ " ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Lots more along the same lines under 'Seclusion' in 'Useful Posts'. ======= 58696 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do mind objects have an intrinsic nature? nilovg Hi Rob M, > Paragraph 6 of the Vibhanga describes rupa as being of > either "inferior" or "superior". Paragraphs 37 – 45 of the > Sammohavinodani clarifies that rupa has an intrinsic nature of being > undesirable (anittha), moderately desirable (ittha) and extremely > desirable (ati-ittha). > > Paragraph 12 of the Vibhanga uses the same words to describe vedana > as being of either "inferior" or "superior". The text says, "Bad > feeling is inferior; good and neither-good-nor-bad feeling is > superior. Good and bad feeling is inferior; neither-good-nor-bad > feeling is superior. Painful feeling is inferior; pleasant feeling > and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is superior. Pleasant and > painful feeling is inferior; neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is > superior." > > My first question is, "is this paragraph not contradictory with > respect to good / pleasant feeling, in one sentence calling them > superior and in the following sentence calling them inferior?" -------- N: No, they are compared with each other in different ways, and we often find this in the Co. We have to look at each comparison separately. --------- > R: Paragraphs 18, 24 and 30 of the Vibhanga describe sanna / sankhara / > vinnanna as being of either "inferior" or "superior" by referring > back to the associated feeling. > > Paragraph XIV, 128 of the Visuddhimagga provides the characteristic, > function, manifestation and proximate cause of the five types of > feeling. As expected, "pleasure" / "pain" have the characteristic of > experiencing desirable / undesirable tangible object. This is > expected as we understand that rupa has an intrinsic nature. -------- N: It is emphasized that this depends on whether the vipaakacitta is kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. This is the way to understand more about desirable or undesirable object. -------- > R: What surprised me is that this paragraph of the Visuddhimagga > provided the characteristic of "joy" / "grief" as experiencing a > desirable / undesirable object (the text is silent on the nature of > objects for which equanimity applies. -------- N: -------- >R: My second question is, "am I correct interpreting the Vibhanga and > Visuddhimagga that mind objects have intrinsic nature?" ______ N: I think that when we read intrinsically desirable or undesirable, itusually pertains to ruupas experienced by vipaakacittas. It is true that also painful bodily feeling and unhappy feeling that accompanies dosa-muulacitta are undesirable objects. They cannot be object predominance-condition for this reason. I like to be careful about the word intrinsically. Nina. 58697 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:49am Subject: Re: Is breath a rupa? philofillet Hi Jon Thanks, that's helpful. I think it was a different talk, maybe, but there was a funny point where you demonstrate an example of how we could notice breath, I think perhaps by blowing on your hand, and Nina said, with good cheer "that's not breath! That's blowing!" :) Phil > What is clear to me from this and other discussions I've listened to is > that, while there is no rupa called breath, the term 'breath' as used in > the texts has a very specific meaning, namely, a certain rupa that is > conditioned by citta, and is not necessarily what we notice as air > passing in and out through the nose. 58698 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) nilovg Hi Jon nad Andrew, I just noticed in Ven. Nyanaponika Abh Studies, p. 92, that he mentioned the term helpers, upakaaraka, in relation to sati-sampajannña. He says this word in used in Expositor and Tiika. I got it from the Vis. Tiika. Nina. op 01-05-2006 10:38 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > > I'm grateful to Nina for her suggestion of 'upakaarako' for 'helper' (I > would have no idea myself!). > > 'Tranquillity' in the Bh bodhi translations usually refers to the metal > factor of 'passadhi', one of the cetasikas that accompanies each moment > of kusala citta. > > The 5 "helpers" mentioned in the sutta are: > > - virtue > - wide learning > - discussion (of what was learned) > - tranquillity > - insight 58699 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the monk's siila. Skillful Side-stepping ? sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (RobK at end), This has caught my attention, so I hope you won't mind me butting in. I haven't read the messages after it yet, so please bear with me. --- indriyabala wrote: (to Nina) > As my concluding remark: thank you again for finding time to reply to > most of my emails last week. Although we have not been successful in > getting our points across, when all things are considered it has not > been totally disappointing. [More like ordering a main dish but ending > up intead with a side dish (that I did not order), however it was much > better than leaving the restaurant with an empty stomach.] ..... S: I understand this kind of frustration. I think dhamma discussions can often be like this. Often we don't get the kind of responses we expect or would like. Scott mentioned this recently, I think. I was also reminded of this today as I listened to a track from our India discussions with K.Sujin. In my mind, I've dedicated this particular track to you, because I'm raising issues and asking questions on the Kundaliya Sutta and segments from the Patisambhidamagga which you had raised before our trip. The responses I was given are subtle (for me) and it often takes me time to ponder over the unexpected side dish I'm given:-) Sometimes, I only appreciate much later that it was in fact a healthier dish than the one I'd ordered, but others may have different reactions. Even now, I still find the points you have raised (and which I in turn have discussed at length) very difficult. In some regards, I think your comments on the Kundaliya about sila as basis and condition for satipatthana are correct. When it's kusala, there's no akusala and it can be a condition for higher kinds of kusala then or in future. If someone doesn't appreciate basic sila (not killing etc), it seems unlikely they'll appreciate the real understanding of dhammas and good intentions and acts do accumulate. We don't know when and how they will bring their own good results and be a basis/support for satipatthana to develop in future. There are many aspects here I'm still not clear on. Adhi sila or purification of sila can only be developed with wisdom and any dhammas, including moments of bad conduct, can be known for what they are too. Furthermore, moments of trying to have good sila, wanting to be a good person and other acts rooted in attachment shouldn't be mistaken for kusala sila, otherwise there won't be any support at all. We will very soon be uploading these recordings and you'd be doing me a favour if you'd listen to the segment I have in mind. You may be able to help me further. The previous year, most of my questions arose from discussions with B.Bodhi. This trip (last Oct, 2005), most the questions I raised arose from discussions with you. For this, I'm very, very grateful indeed. You really help me to consider and reflect a lot. (There are other discussions with you and many with Phil and James in particular, which are raised during the whole set of discussions). I think you'll actually like K.Sujin's comments which partly support your own rather than mine. (If anyone has any questions about whether any of us are 'unquestioning followers', I'd say: just listen and you'll see!). .... > You might wonder why I turned more active lately. Well, it was because > there were some disagreeable (mildly itching) issues that I wanted to > address to the best of my ability before becoming non-involved again > (what Sarah's called a sabbatical leave). .... S: Everyone needs a break from time to time (even if just for a weekend), but I really hope it's not much longer than that:). You've been making very solid (yes, very 'core') contributions for the last few months. Tep, we've been busy this weekend with birthdays, beach outings and final editing of the recordings (it's been a huge task), but I do have several of your posts ear-marked for responding to this week. So, I would be very disappointed if you weren't around to read them:). I promise to look at any suttas you've gone to the trouble to present very carefully as well. Thanks again for helping me to appreciate how little I really understand. Please hang in there! James was right when he said I have a hard time with departures, even long sabbaticals:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Rob K, like everyone else who has written, I do hope you'll re-consider and post again before too long as well for all our benefit. ======== 58700 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 3:10am Subject: "Rely on yourself" to what? philofillet Hi all Could someone clarify for me what the "rely on yourself" in the kalama sutta refers to? Your own words or commentary passage rather than just the sutta passage, please. Thanks. Phil 58701 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 3:51am Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear James, James: I think that there is a lot of truth to what you say. In the past, I have described this group of people as "disgruntled meditators". They have all had meditation experience in the past (except for Nina I think?) and it didn't go according to their expectations. Now, they blame the practice rather than themselves. James: Various ups and downs we all experience. If you read the suttas with an open mind, and forget what you read in DSG, you shouldn't have any worries about the hopelessness of practice expounded in this group. James: It's good that you didn't mind his response. You should hear from all sides. Of course, as the Buddha's attorney, I very much minded his response ;-)). Nice gig. Pay well? No, seriously, good points. I think I'll also try reading posts in DSG with an open mind as well. Except yours, of course, which I will transcribe onto gold plates. Oh yeah, I said "no, seriously" just a moment ago. Seriously now (for real) I find discouragement only runs so deep. If I do wonder about something I start to read others to see where they come from, ask a question, and, of course, try to work it out in actual practise. I don't quite do the go it alone thing too well. I'm still afraid of the nonsense I could come up with myself without the structure of what is written by others (suttas, ancient commentaries, and some modern commentaries on lists included). Peace, man. Sincerely, Scott. 58702 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ... Contradicting Compromise? All In One sarahprocter... Hi Tep, let me reply to this one now: --- indriyabala wrote: > #58103 > > >S: > >Vism X1V, 82 > > " 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, > all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. > And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? > Consciousness(vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, > friend, that is why 'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words > vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano > (mind) are one in meaning." > > Tep: What is the reference M i 292 ? ..... S: MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "'Consciousness, consciousness' is said, friend. With reference to what is 'consciousness' said?" " 'It cognizes, it cognizes (vijaanaati vijaanaati),' friend; that is why 'consciousness' is said. What does it cognize? It cognizes: '[this is] pleasant'; it cognizes: '[this is] painful'; it cognizes: 'this is] neither -painful-nor-pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes.' friend; that is why 'consciousness' is said." > ......... > > #58108 > > > Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > <...> > > "The important element in this input is attention. Anyone who has > > mastered a skill will realize that the process of attaining mastery > > requires attention to three things: (1) to pre-existing conditions, > > (2) to what one is doing in relation to those conditions, and (3) to > > the results that come from one's actions. This threefold focus > enables one to monitor one's actions and adjust them accordingly. In > this way, one's attention to conditions, actions, and effects allows > the results of an action to feed back into future action, thus > allowing for refinement in one's skill. > <...> > > > >Tep: What is your thought? > ... > >S: Wrong View. > > Tep: I don't think so, Sarah. Why is it wrong? ..... S: I'd like to apologise for my brief comment. I think it was Fabrizio who elaborated on it nicely. Awareness can only be aware of the present dhamma. This dhamma is conditioned. It cannot be changed, it cannot be adjusted at all. Similarly, there cannot be any awareness or attention to past conditions or to future actions. Past conditions have completely fallen away. Any attention is only thinking or speculating. Likewise about the future results. Does this help? I think others may have already exhausted this topic. .... ***** > Tep: There is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. > "There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, > known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to > him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. > Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known > as they subside. " [AN IV.41 Samadhi Sutta] > ............... > > >S: The first stage of insight is clearly distinguishing namas from > rupas. Is there any understanding of nama now? Of rupa now? Focussing > on the arising of sounds or sensations is not the development of > awareness of dhammas as I understand it. By the time there is any > focussing, such rupas have long since past. > > Tep: Please compare your thinking with AN IV.41 above. See some light > now? {:>|) .... S: I think this is like the point Scott was raising on labelling and so on. Really, I think we'll only see the light when such a degree of insight has been developed which clearly sees the arising and passing away of the khandhas as in your sutta quote. At such a level, samadhi and panna are yoked together, working in tandem. I believe this is completely different from what we are used to when we focus, label or bring our attention to the arising and falling away of dhammas and when (as you asked) we try to be 'precisely aware of the beginning and the end of an interval of neutral feeling', it will not lead to the result we wish for. Just my thought on this. Do you see it differently? ***** <..> > Tep: When there is the understanding that 'good will' is the same as > right intention, that understanding is right; because good will is a > part of samma sankappo ["The intention of good will opposes the > intention of ill will, thoughts governed by anger and aversion.", > Bhikkhu Bodhi in 'The Noble Eightfold Path The Way to the End of > Suffering']. > The quoted sutta above says that this 'good will' supports the > cultivation of awareness-release. I do not see anything about > "control" of will in that quote. > ............... ... S: I would have thought that 'good will' is more like adosa cetasika or metta (when beings are the object). Of course, adosa (not specifically metta) arises with all wholesome cittas, so in a sense you're right -- there is adosa whenever (right) path factors arise. However, I understand samma sankappo to refer to vitakka cetasika (as I think Phil eleaborated on recently). For samma ditthi to arise, it needs 'right' vitakka or samma sankappo to 'touch' the object. I think it's misleading to think of it as 'right intention' or 'good will'. While wholesome cetana and alobha arise, they are not path factors. Anyway, you're right that all wholesome mental factors arising at such times, support and condition each other. S: Oh, I've just gone back to the original sutta from AN 11s, Metta Sutta: > "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is > cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, > given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well-undertaken, eleven > benefits can be expected. Which eleven? [endquote] .... S: This has nothing to do with samma sankappo. I believe this is referring to the person who becomes enlightened with jhana as basis, having developed metta to such a degree. Would you agree? (I've rather lost track of this thread). Again, thanks for helping all of us to reflect deeply on such suttas. Metta, Sarah ====== 58703 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:09am Subject: Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for your (second!) reply. James: "Yeah, I agree with you. It isn't necessary to label everything. Actually, labeling comes from discursive thinking and too much discursive thinking leads to craving. As for myself, I haven't had much interest in learning extensive Pali. I don't see the point now that most everything is translated into English. The only reason now to learn extensive Pali would be so I can sound knowledgeable and impress people in a Buddhist Internet group. The only way I could possibly be more pathetic is if I learned Klingon in order to impress people in a Star Trek Internet group. ;-))" Yeah, that would be fairly nerdy. I think Klingon should be learned in order to communicate and express ideas with Klingons and not for the purposes of self-aggrandizement. Anything else is an insult to this noble language and noble people. I think we totally agree on this. James: "I would think that your experience as a psychotherapist (and in psychoanalysis) would be of great benefit to you in the practice of mindfulness. You would be able to notice more workings of the mind because that is your job! However, you would have to unlearn the various psychoanalytical theories so that you can approach your awareness with a clear mind." Your latter point is so true. Interestingly (well, for me) I found, while my wife was dying, that my thoughts regarding these psychoanalytical theories were naturally changing. Real events in the world, like dying and death, tend to (if conditions are right I guess) strip one of unnecessary proliferation. I began, as I was saying, to simply give up on the whole debate regarding the nature of the self. Can you imagine how tedious debates about the right way to construe the self must be? So much was speculated upon. And, within psychoanalytic circles, although the subject matter has no import compared with the study of the Dhamma, the debates seem to go on as strongly as they can here. I was giving up on the needless mind/body debate. I was finding things to be often wrong minded. Not all, mind you, for instance basic psychodynamics seem useful, and there does seem an orderly way in which the mind works (conventionally speaking you understand). Now I couldn't care less how one defines self within psychoanalysis. The debates on that seem fruitless, as they no doubt are in the end. All that to reiterate: point well-taken. James: "It demonstrates that we are all learning all the time. Life is a process and the dhamma is a process." Very true, James. Thank you. I enjoy this interaction. Sincerely, Scott. 58704 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana sarahprocter... Dear Scott, May I butt in? --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Lately its become apparent to me that I've been trying too hard to get > all the Pali terms for things straight (not a bad endeavour in and of > itself, mind you.) I've missed the fact that there are many things > arising in me that would likely qualify as worthy and that don't need > labels to be there. .... S: I agree with this......and when/ if there's awareness, there's no idea of a Pali term. It's merely a convenience, a tool for communication. ..... > > For instance, all my years in psychoanalysis (that's me on the couch, > mind you) and my training as a psychotherapist have enabled me to > notice my feelings and responses to events with a precision and > accuracy that only practise can allow. I'm good at it. I don't need > a Pali term to be good at it. It so happens that there are some Pali > terms for these things (don't ask me what they are) but this doesn't > change the fact that these things arise in me. ..... S: I think the question is whether such skill and noticing of feelings and responses leads to more or less attachment and involvement with oneself. I've had long discussions with close friends who are psychologists and psychotherapists on this point. I wouldn't set any rule about it, but without an understanding of conditioned dhammas, I do wonder about the long-term benefit in such noticing or analysis. I wonder how you feel? The purpose of the Buddha's teachings as I see it is to let go of what has passed already (even thoughts, feelings and reactions of a moment ago) and to not cling to what is yet to come. In other words - the growth of detachment of just this dhamma appearing now. Hence all the phrases in the Visuddhimagga about life existing in a moment - in a moment of seeing, hearing or thinking now. And these present experiences will soon be past experiences, like past lives, completely forgotten. I'm sure you're familiar with the suttas often quoted here, like the Bhaddekaratta Sutta, MN 131 with these famous lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes, For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state, Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably." I think it takes a lot of courage nd confidence to develop insight to be an unshakeable power (bala). .... > Learning the Dhamma seems different for me as this becomes apparent. > Conditions have already been in place for these things to arise. .... S: Yes and I think that the understanding can become more and more precise to know that 'these things' are only dhammas - not stories, dreams, labels or events. Only 5 khandhas now as we speak. If we try to label or focus on present dhammas, isn't it a kind of paying attention to what has passed already? Isn't it a kind of attachment rather than detachment or letting go? ... >I > guess it behooves me to learn what it is called and what good can come > of it. My point is that it is already here. > > Its cool, in a way, that so many things prior to my coming formally to > the Buddha and the Dhamma for refuge were preparatory. This post to > you was conditioned by a lot of factors, for example. > > Anyway, for what that was worth . . . .... S: I think the keen interest, reflection and consideration of the truth about mental states and reality is very essential. Yes, there are always a lot of complex conditions at work. I know other psychologists who have not the slightest interest in the Dhamma. Are we really ready to give up ideas of Self and attachment to particular experiences which may take us away from the Truths? I think your reflections are very deep, Scott and I'll go back to enjoying reading your good discussions with James and others. Again, apologies for interrupting... Metta, Sarah ======= 58705 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) egberdina Hi all, I would appreciate all feedback on the following. > (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) > > We cannot force the arising of mindfulness, Is that because not all the conditions that give rise to mindfulness can be known, or because conditionality has randomness in it ie given the same conditions the results may not be the same > > -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58706 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? egberdina Hi all, Just an update on my darling wife Vicki. On 27/04/06, Herman Hofman wrote: > > Hi Rob M, Howard and all, > > > > We were due to be in the hospital for my wife's > > > surgery, but it has been put back for an hour, so I can answer your > > > questions now. > > > > ===== > > > > After sending this message, I will spend some time radiating metta to > > you and your wife. > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your kind thoughts. The surgery went well, and Vicki is in > good spirits. A few more days and she should be home again. > After coming home today with much joy, Vicki is back in the hospital tonight. It looks as though she has picked up an infection (fever, vomiting) -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58707 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, "May I butt in?" Of course, always a pleasure. S: "I think the question is whether such skill and noticing of feelings and responses leads to more or less attachment and involvement with oneself. I've had long discussions with close friends who are psychologists and psychotherapists on this point. I wouldn't set any rule about it, but without an understanding of conditioned dhammas, I do wonder about the long-term benefit in such noticing or analysis. I wonder how you feel?" There is none, is my opinion, when one compares the aims of noticing and analysis for the purposes of knowing the self versus a penetration into the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness of dhammas in order to find release. Psychotherapy, with most, is a totally secular and conventional endeavour. It deals with the conditioned dhammas, as you say but for the most part is practised for the purpose of realising "atta." I suppose one could cite the cliche that goes something like, "You can't lose your self until you find it." Some people seem so psychologically damaged that one tries to help alleviate suffering via psychotherapeutic means. It seems hard for some to see anything but self, whether before or after some sort of psychotherapeutic process. This must depend as well on conditions. My own treatment, and I was lucky to have a very good psychoanalyst (an Aussie, as it turns out), lead directly into an openness to "spirituality" but this was a matter of conditions as well. I'd not say at all that the treatment "caused" conditions for these things to arise. We both knew the things to be "analysed" and those to allow to continue to come to fruition. "The purpose of the Buddha's teachings as I see it is to let go of what has passed already (even thoughts, feelings and reactions of a moment ago) and to not cling to what is yet to come. In other words - the growth of detachment of just this dhamma appearing now. Hence all the phrases in the Visuddhimagga about life existing in a moment - in a moment of seeing, hearing or thinking now. And these present experiences will soon be past experiences, like past lives, completely forgotten." True. "I'm sure you're familiar with the suttas often quoted here, like the Bhaddekaratta Sutta, MN 131 with these famous lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): 'Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes, For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state, Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably.' I think it takes a lot of courage and confidence to develop insight to be an unshakeable power (bala)." Can you say more about this? Nina mentioned something in this area as well. S: "...the understanding can become more and more precise to know that 'these things' are only dhammas - not stories, dreams, labels or events. Only 5 khandhas now as we speak...If we try to label or focus on present dhammas, isn't it a kind of paying attention to what has passed already? Isn't it a kind of attachment rather than detachment or letting go?" True. This is what I'm trying to work out in this thread. Labelling is occuring well after the fact. Noticing seems to happen quicker, is gone quicker, is more subtle, and is more to the point but I'm not sure. S: "I think the keen interest, reflection and consideration of the truth about mental states and reality is very essential. Yes, there are always a lot of complex conditions at work. I know other psychologists who have not the slightest interest in the Dhamma. Are we really ready to give up ideas of Self and attachment to particular experiences which may take us away from the Truths?" Some experiences can have their effect, to the detriment of a peaceful life, from outside of awareness. We know that things arise and fall away faster than the blink of an eye. We know that clinging arises all the time. We know that this is more or less "unconscious." I think that one can benefit from a secular analysis of what is being clung to, but, as you say, only then to let it go. Actually, I've found, in my own experience, that true realisation of a conventional nature dealing with "psychological complexes" does lead to their falling away. This is much more than an intellectual understanding and has to take into account the visceral and deep non-verbal aspects of samsaric experience. I'm speaking here of the effect of traumatic events on subsequent development and current or ongoing experience. The damage from trauma is instantaneous but then, through deep and subtle clinging, lasts long. Its resolution is instantaneous, but one has to catch up with this and realise its over. For what that's worth. I'm not so enamoured with my profession. I try to help but there are so many people with such varied capacities that one just does what one can. I have more certainty when it comes to my own experience. Thank you for your kind consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 58708 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:42am Subject: ADL ch. 1 knowing vipaka from akusala citta philofillet Hi all Here is another passage from ADL ch. 1 that gets at something that I have been finding very helpful the last few months: "It is important to know which jati a citta is. We cannot develop wholesomeness in our life if we take akusala for kusala or if we take akusala for vipaka. For example, when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing- consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed oursleves. But the aversion which may arise shortly afterwards is not vipaka, but it arises with akusala citta." I don't know about the first part - if developing wholesomeness depended on knowing akusala from kusala we would be locked in a whole lot of measuring and judging and thinking to try to know one from the other, it seems to me. (As Acharn Sujin says once, "what is the use of knowing kusala from akusala if we do not know they are not self." I think that is true, with the exception of knowing and avoiding akusala kamma patha, which can be done quite often.) But the second part, knowing vipaka from akusala or kusala javana citta - I find that that is something that can be reflected on in a very fruitful way. Today was suddenly a summer day here, and we went to a very lovely park, absolutely idyllic, right out of Debussy's "apres-midi", so many pleasant sense door sensations as we glided around the lake in a swan pedal boat, under the shade that was comforting for the first time this year, ruffled by breezes, the smells of grilled chicken, and flowers, and so many lovely women in summer skirts. (Including the lovely Naomi.) How interesting it was to reflect on the above passage throughout the day, aware of how this pleasant vipaka was conditioning so much lobha, so quickly (it always does anyways) and deeply. There is still enjoyment of pleasant days - it would be unnatural for that to be resisted - but there is more understanding of the jatis involved, a little bit more. And there is therefore a bit of a sobering or something. Still finding delight, but not seeking it as much? Phil 58709 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? philofillet Hi Herman > After coming home today with much joy, Vicki is back in the hospital > tonight. It looks as though she has picked up an infection (fever, vomiting) Sorry to hear this, Herman. My thoughts are with Vicki and you. Phil 58710 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? sarahprocter... Hi Herman (& Vicki), I was so glad to hear before that all had gone so well and she was due home soon. How disappointing that she has had to return to hospital again. Years ago, I had a similar experience after minor surgery of picking up an infection....not fun at all. In any case, I'm sure she'll be taken good care of and will be back again soon. She'll need a lot of rest, I'm sure. Please give her our very best wishes for a quick recovery from this 'glitch'. I'm sure you're very concerned, Herman, but I think this kind of thing is very common and she should be back again soon. I'm so glad we met her last year - very pleasant and good-humoured which will help during the recovery! Please keep us updated. metta, Sarah ======= --- Herman Hofman wrote: > After coming home today with much joy, Vicki is back in the hospital > tonight. It looks as though she has picked up an infection (fever, > vomiting) 58711 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Andrew) - In a message dated 4/30/06 8:54:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > You're welcome any time for more information. Perhaps, an easy way to > become my "friendly friend" is to try starting your email with "Dear > Tep" ! > ======================== Tep, sometimes folks use language that is very friendly, respectful, and even loving sounding, but they aren't friends at all. (And how many folks close their post with "metta" when there is no metta in their heart at all? LOL!) It is a good idea, I think, not to read too much into salutations, closings and other elements of formal speech. Ninety percent of my emails, it happens, even to those whom I care the very most about (Not being so advanced, I *do* distinguish! ;-), begin with "Hi, So-and-so." And I intend nothing but friendship with such a greeting. One may, of course, have many different bases on which to guage another's attitude, but I recommend not giving much weight to formal speech matters such as the form of one's salutation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58712 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defining 'Mental Phenomena' upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/1/06 12:20:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Thanks for the above. Yes, it is what I was after. It was good that you > brought up dream states as well, I've been wondering how they are > classified. Another one I've been interested in is the phenomenon known as > binaural beats. If two sounds of slightly different frequencies (difffering > by less than 30 Hz) are played one each through the channels of a stereo > headset, the mind will produce a beat equal to the difference of the two > frequencies. This phenomenon is made use of in products that allow > entrainment of brain waves ie altering the state of consciousness using > external sound stimuli. These products may be useful for people who find > they just cannot meditate. They certainly are succesfully used in the > treatment of ADD and ADHD disorders. > ======================= I understand your interest. One might wonder whether these heard beats are rupa or nama. I don't think the matter is simple. An argument to the effect that the beats are rupa could be the following: Rupa need not be something found "externally" by physicists and chemists. It includes, primarily I think from the buddhist perspective, experiential phenomena. Perhaps this is an example of mind-conditioned rupa (specifically mind-conditioned aural sensation). I suppose a biologist could help by pointing out the part of the brain involved with the "hearing". Experientially, the beats certainly do seem to be sounds, and not just memory of sounds or imagined or dreamed sounds. Ultimately, of course, hearing isn't done by the ears but by vi~n~nana. One could also make an argument, however, the beats are instead rupa-conditioned nama! One could argue that two separate beats are indeed heard, but subliminally, without registering at a conscious level, and then sankharic processes create (i.e., construct/fabricate) the mental phenomena of beats. From my own experience, these "beats" do seem to true heard sound, and so I am inclined to the rupa view.But the matter is just not clear. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58713 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 5/1/06 12:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > Thanks for your post about your retreat. Interesting that Ven > Gunaratana doesn't think one of what most would call the central > teachings of buddhism is significant ... the Ti-lakkhana. > > ==================== No no, no! I was obviously very unclear! He thinks that the tilakkhana are critically important, and that the realization of them is what leads to awakening! What he thinks is not significant is the use of 'dhamma' instead of 'sankhara' in the third line of the following: Sabbe sankhara anicca. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe dhamma anatta. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58714 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta egberdina Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > But tell me, is the analogy of a sequential system or not? And why > would > > anyone read an analogy of a sequential system as being other than > > sequential? > > Well, that's the heart of the matter, isn't it? The ancient Romans > used sequential stories as aids to memory (i.e. the sequentialism was > not the point of the exercise at all - see Rhetorica ad Herennium). > And medieval European artists painted connected scenes out of > sequence but ranked according to another system (eg. all pictures > showing the king came first, even if they were out of sequential > order). So that's my first question: is the sequence the point of it > all? These are great examples to illustrate your point! I'd like to answer your question, but also leave a bit of a riddle. I see something similar between this sutta and the sutta about not clinging to rafts that have served their purpose. If one clings to notions of virtue, one has not left the first carriage. There is no clinging to notions of virtue in subsequent stages. That's what I reckon, anyway :-) -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58715 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: >I > suppose one could cite the cliche that goes something like, "You can't > lose your self until you find it." ..... Sa: I'm not so sure about this .... >Some people seem so > psychologically damaged that one tries to help alleviate suffering via > psychotherapeutic means. It seems hard for some to see anything but > self, whether before or after some sort of psychotherapeutic process. > This must depend as well on conditions. .... Sa: Yes, I agree. One helps how one can. I think that the more understanding we develop, the better we will provide medicine or treatment to others, depending on the situation. .... > My own treatment, and I was lucky to have a very good psychoanalyst > (an Aussie, as it turns out), lead directly into an openness to > "spirituality" but this was a matter of conditions as well. I'd not > say at all that the treatment "caused" conditions for these things to > arise. We both knew the things to be "analysed" and those to allow to > continue to come to fruition. .... Sa: Clearly, your interest was there . ..... > "I'm sure you're familiar with the suttas often quoted here, like the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta, MN 131 with these famous lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi > transl): > > 'Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes, > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state, > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably.' > > I think it takes a lot of courage and confidence to develop insight to > be an unshakeable power (bala)." > > Can you say more about this? Nina mentioned something in this area as > well. ..... Sa: I meant, it takes real courage to really understand (with detachment) what is real now, rather than what we'd like to be real. Courage to give up our attachments to special experiences or to attainments of any kind, for example. Courage to see lobha now for what it is. Courage to face up to the real roots of our problems which ultimately are not the circumstances but the lobha, dosa and moha. When understanding develops, it will eventually become unshakeable so that there is no wavering from the path at all. Meanwhile, there are bound to be questions about whether it's hopeless at times, doubts about present dhammas and so on. The awareness has to be known so it can grow. I think this is a very important topic, so please ask if I can elaborate further according to my very limited understanding. .... > > S: "...the understanding can become more and more precise to know that > 'these things' are only dhammas - not stories, dreams, labels or > events. Only 5 khandhas now as we speak...If we try to label or focus > on present dhammas, isn't it a kind of paying attention to what has > passed already? Isn't it a kind of attachment rather than detachment > or letting go?" > > True. This is what I'm trying to work out in this thread. Labelling > is occuring well after the fact. Noticing seems to happen quicker, is > gone quicker, is more subtle, and is more to the point but I'm not > sure. .... Sa: There can be subtle kinds of noticing with an idea of self - still trying to catch dhammas which have fallen away already. When there is awareness of a reality, there's no trying or noticing involved. It arises naturally like seeing or hearing or liking arise. Appreciating what the quality of awareness is and what the objects of awareness can be is the main condition for it to arise. The big obstacle is any kind of wrong view concerned with a self trying to catch it or make it happen. .... > Some experiences can have their effect, to the detriment of a peaceful > life, from outside of awareness. We know that things arise and fall > away faster than the blink of an eye. We know that clinging arises > all the time. We know that this is more or less "unconscious." I > think that one can benefit from a secular analysis of what is being > clung to, but, as you say, only then to let it go. > > Actually, I've found, in my own experience, that true realisation of a > conventional nature dealing with "psychological complexes" does lead > to their falling away. This is much more than an intellectual > understanding and has to take into account the visceral and deep > non-verbal aspects of samsaric experience. I'm speaking here of the > effect of traumatic events on subsequent development and current or > ongoing experience. The damage from trauma is instantaneous but then, > through deep and subtle clinging, lasts long. Its resolution is > instantaneous, but one has to catch up with this and realise its over. > For what that's worth. .... Sa: I appreciate what you're saying. I don't think there's any conflict. As I mentioned to James before, understanding of dhamma doesn't mean not seeking all kinds of help. I admire you for being able to do so. Do you find it helpful to reflect on all the lifetimes we must have expereinced great traumatic events, on and on? Does this inspire you at all? .... > > I'm not so enamoured with my profession. I try to help but there are > so many people with such varied capacities that one just does what one > can. I have more certainty when it comes to my own experience. .... Sa: As you say, you try to help as best you can and then we have to leave the rest to conditions. I'm sure you are of great assistance because of your own growth of understanding. I think it helps in any situation and in any profession. It also helps us to be more tolerant and understanding of others' difficulties. .... > Thank you for your kind consideration. ... Sa: Likewise, Scott. It's helpful for me to reflect on too. Metta, Sarah p.s I forget if I asked before - do you have a pic to put in the photo album by any chance? Or a family pic? Anyone else? (Pls don't feel any obligation). ============ 58716 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana egberdina Hi Sarah (and Scott), Just winding down for bed (deliberate setting up of conditions for sleep) and am following the conversation with interest. > > .... > Sa: There can be subtle kinds of noticing with an idea of self - still > trying to catch dhammas which have fallen away already. When there is > awareness of a reality, there's no trying or noticing involved. It arises > naturally like seeing or hearing or liking arise. > > Appreciating what the quality of awareness is and what the objects of > awareness can be is the main condition for it to arise. The big obstacle > is any kind of wrong view concerned with a self trying to catch it or make > it happen. Are you saying there can be no awareness of trying? lobha? wanting things to be a certain way? > > -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58718 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 5/1/06 1:04:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > How does this square with the standard doctrine that with stream > entry the three fetters are shattered? > ======================= Does it say in some sutta that all three must be uprooted at the same time? If it does, then Bhante Gunaratana must be wrong on that point, though not about the main matter of time delay between path and fruit, because the Dakkhinvibhanga Sutta does seem to support that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58719 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat" upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/1/06 3:35:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thanks for your report. There are a few problems. Fruition-consciousness is > vipaakacitta and it does not eradicate any defilement. Ven. Bhikkhu says > doubt and self view are uprooted later on, but only magga-citta eradicates. > This is strange, because there are no other maggacirras arising before > fruition. > Nina. > ======================== I may have misrepresented Bhante. I think what he meant was that fruition occured after the third fetter was uprooted, not as its cause. (The uprooting of the 3rd fetter "marked" the arising of fruition.) Interesting that BB speaks of doubt and self view as being uprooted later. That is what Bhikkhu Gunaratana said as well, with only belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual being uprooted at the initial moment of path consciousness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58720 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha and vipassana 2 egberdina Hi Jon (and Eric), Clearly, I think, the sutta is not to be read as saying that each factor > can only be developed when the preceding factor has been fully developed > (that would not make much sense, would it?). The only time something properly doesn't make sense is when it is out of sync with reality, not when it is different to a preconceived notion. I am not saying that about you or me, just as something to bear in mind. The touchstone is what is real, not what the theory says. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58721 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/1/06 8:23:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > After coming home today with much joy, Vicki is back in the hospital > tonight. It looks as though she has picked up an infection (fever, vomiting) > > ===================== Damn! I'm so sorry about that, Herman. I do hope they get this under control very quickly. With much metta to you both, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58722 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:01am Subject: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation upasaka_howard Hi, all - On another list I was asked about the standing meditation done at the Bhikkhu Gunaratana retreat. What was asked was whether Bhante introduced it, what I focussed on, and what additional details I could provide. Thinking that this might be of interest to some here, I will repeat my reply. I said the following: _____________________ Bhante G suggested that while doing walking meditation, at the end of a "run" and after turning around, one stand there "for as long as you want" - it could be for a minute or even 10 minutes - before resuming the walking. He also said that one could do standing meditation on its own. I carried out the standing meditation in much the same way as sitting meditation: My core attention was on the breath, but with sufficient calm in place, I opened up my attention to the body as a whole (with breath still at the center). Observable are all the usual bodily sensations. But also observable, no matter how still one is - and to another one might seem completely motionless - there are observed "automatic" fine positional adjustments that prevent one from falling over. (At least that seems to be what they accomplish.) One sees selfless cetana in action, and one sees incessant change - anicca. Very instructive. :-) An advantage of standing meditation over sitting meditation is that one avoids some of the pain in back, hips, and knees associated with lengthy sitting, another is less likelihood of being overcome by sloth & torpor when standing. Of course, one disadvantage I can think of is the possibility of falling over should one enter jhana. But one could take precautions, I suppose, such as positioning a soft chair right behind one. ____________________________ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58723 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:26am Subject: Re: Samatha and vipassana 1 ericlonline Hi Jon, Jon > I thought it was about time this thread had its own subject heading ;-)) ericlonline wrote: >E: Actually different objects. I forget the words, >samathanakanna (sp?) and I cant remember the other. >But it seems the commentaries expounded on this >difference in object and then postulated 2 different >types of meditation when in fact there was not. >Then the Burmese ran with Vipassana. So, this was >why I was asking to do a search in the Nikayas and >Vinaya. To see if Vipassana and Samadhi was more >closely linked than in later traditions. I really >am not sure and was asking for your help. Again, >no big deal if you dont have the time. > Jon > Are you by any chance thinking of samatha-yaanika and sukkha- vipassaka? Let me get back to you on this one. metta 58724 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:53am Subject: Re: Samatha and vipassana 2 ericlonline Hi Jon, E>Lets go back to Transcendent Dependent Origination. >Where do you want to say insight (vipassana) starts? >The Sutta says after jhana is developed and not before. >Maybe you feel it starts with reasoned faith after hearing >the teaching? But I would not call this intellectual >cogitated thought (no matter how sublime) insight. > Jon: I think you're referring to the Upanisa Sutta SN 12:23. OK, that sutta gives the following order of factors, with each being the 'proximate cause' for the next (Bh Bodhi translation in his CDB at p. 553): Suffering (dukkha) Faith (saddha) Gladness (pamojja) Rapture (piti) Tranquillity (passaddhi) Happiness (sukha) Concentration (samadhi) Knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathabhutañanadassana) Revulsion (nibbida) Dispassion (viraga) Liberation (vimutti) Knowledge of destruction in regard to destruction (asavakkhaye ñana) > Two interesting points from the footnotes to the text in the BB translation: 1. In footnote 68, discussion of the meaning of 'upanisa' (proximate cause) and how it is to be distinguished from 'upanissaya' (decisive support condition) which refers solely to something which plays a strong causal role. 2. In footnote 69, BB quotes the commentary as saying that 'concentration' here refers to the jhana used as a basis for insight ('paadakajjhaanasamaadhi'). > > Clearly, I think, the sutta is not to be read as saying that each factor can only be developed when the preceding factor has been fully developed (that would not make much sense, would it?). To my reading, it describes the different wholesome factors that come into play as insight is developed in the particular case of a person who attains enlightenment with jhana as basis. Here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html the trancendent order comes right before Dependent Origination using the same terminology, "supporting condition". Implying that this/that conditionality applies to both suffering and it's end. This makes sense, yes/no? What is outside of this/that conditionality? E>No, I have started with TDO and if there is no >jhana then there is no "the knowledge and vision >of things as they really are". Probably what you >would refer to as the apprehending of 'reality'. >The continuous seeing of the momentariness of >namas and rupas. > > Jon> This interpretation of the sutta is not given in the Bh Bodhi translation, either in the footnotes or in his general introduction. Do you have a source for it? See above. Again, this sutta merely uses this/that conditionality pointing in a transcendent manner. Simple, no need to go to outside sources to read it. Jon> As I understand it, jhana is mentioned here because it refers to the person who attains enlightenment with jhana as basis. Of course this is how you understand it as your investigations are intellectually & commentarial based also ignoring the definition of Right Samadhi. BTW Some see Samadhi as the power which drives the path. So, your wisdom needs power to cut the bonds of ignorance. You are either cutting the bonds with a razor blade or a weighty axe. This sutta supports this understanding of the path. Without samadhi as a supporting condition there is no "Knowledge and vision of things as they are" (Insight). metta 58725 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 10:07am Subject: Re: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation ericlonline Hi, Howard - Howard> I carried out the standing meditation in much the same way as sitting meditation: My core attention was on the breath, but with sufficient calm in place, I opened up my attention to the body as a whole (with breath still at the center). Observable are all the usual bodily sensations. But also observable, no matter how still one is - and to another one might seem completely motionless - there are observed "automatic" fine positional adjustments that prevent one from falling over. (At least that seems to be what they accomplish.) Yes, without much volition. At least not the discursive kind. Howard > An advantage of standing meditation over sitting meditation is that one avoids some of the pain in back, hips, and knees associated with lengthy sitting, Yes, I have alternated this with sits on lengthy retreats. Also lying down on the back with your knees up with the soles of the feet on the ground. Seems the soles touching tricks the mind into thinking it is standing and sloth and torpor does not arise so easily then. H> another is less likelihood of being overcome by sloth & torpor when standing. Of course, one disadvantage I can think of is the possibility of falling over should one enter jhana. I doubt this will happen as the balance is "automatic" like you said above. BTW Have you ever tried walking meditation with your eyes closed? This helps to keep samadhi fostered between sits. It takes a bit of practice...be careful!! metta 58726 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation upasaka_howard Hi, Hugo - In a message dated 5/1/06 1:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@... writes: > BTW Have you ever tried walking > meditation with your eyes closed? > This helps to keep samadhi fostered > between sits. It takes a bit of > practice...be careful!! > ==================== ;-)) No, I keep the eyes reduced to slits, and I don't "look" at anything, but I don't close them either! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58727 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:15pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) philofillet Hi Herman Ineteresting questions. As usual, I won't think about them too ahrd butwill just write what comess off the top of my head, which is closest to theunderstanding taht is available due to condtions. > > > (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) > > > > We cannot force the arising of mindfulness, Forst of all let me add that it seems quite clear in the Buddha's second sutta, the anatta sutta, that we cannot have factors arising as we'd like them to be - if we could, there would be no suffering. (paraphrase.) > > > > Is that because not all the conditions that give rise to mindfulness can be > known, > or because conditionality has randomness in it ie given the same conditions > the results may not be the same Hmm. Nope ,no understanding available on these questions. (Not that they aren't great questions, I just don't know the answer without pressing my mind on to them, so I'll stop.) I'd stick with the anatta sutta Phil 58728 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:37pm Subject: Vism.XVII,74 Vism.XVII,75 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 74. (5) Proximity condition is the same as 'contiguity condition'. The difference here is only in the letter, there is none in the meaning; just as in the case of the words 'growth' and 'continuity' (Ch. XIV, 66), etc., and as in the case of the 'terminology dyad', 'language dyad' (Dhs. 1306), and so on. ******************** 74. yo anantarapaccayo, sveva samanantarapaccayo. bya~njanamattameva hettha naana.m, upacayasantatiisu viya adhivacananiruttidukaadiisu viya ca. atthato pana naana.m natthi. 75. The opinion of [certain] teachers13 is that proximity condition refers to proximity of aim (fruit) and contiguity condition refers to proximity of time. But that is contradicted by such statements as 'The profitable [consciousness] belonging to the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in one who emerges from cessation is a condition, as contiguity condition, for fruition attainment [consciousness]' (P.tn.1,160). ---------------------- Note 13. 'This refers to the Elder Revata too' (Pm. 586). ********************* 75. yampi ``atthaanantarataaya anantarapaccayo, kaalaanantarataaya samanantarapaccayo´´ti aacariyaana.m mata.m, ta.m ``nirodhaa vu.t.thahantassa nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanakusala.m phalasamaapattiyaa samanantarapaccayena paccayo''tiaadiihi (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.418) virujjhati. 58729 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: I recommend not giving much weight to > formal speech matters such as the form of one's salutation. Dear Tep and Howard I just typed "Hi Tep and Howard" out of habit - then went back and changed it! (-: I just want to clarify that my use of "Hi" instead of "Dear" was not intended to show any disrespect. Indeed, it seems to me that in modern (Australian) English "dear" is seen as formal and "hi" as friendly and informal. Tep, the reason my reply to your well-sourced post was so short was that I have the feeling we are actually not that far apart but I can't find the language to make this clear. Sometimes I think it best to leave thoughts settle and develop in their own time. So, thanks again for sharing the benefit of your research - it has not been ignored. I should have made this clear earlier. Sorry. Best wishes Andrew 58730 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I see something similar between this sutta and the sutta about not clinging > to rafts that have served their purpose. > > If one clings to notions of virtue, one has not left the first carriage. > There is no clinging to notions of virtue in subsequent stages. > > That's what I reckon, anyway :-) Hi Herman I think what you reckon is valid, providing you don't insist that that angle is the only way the matter can be looked at. All these examples were I think meant to be tossed around and explored from different angles. Have to rush off now. Best wishes Andrew 58731 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi Howard and Dear Andrew, Thank you both for your comments and advice. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > I recommend not giving much weight to > > formal speech matters such as the form of one's salutation. > > Dear Tep and Howard > > I just typed "Hi Tep and Howard" out of habit - then went back and > changed it! (-: I just want to clarify that my use of "Hi" instead > of "Dear" was not intended to show any disrespect. Indeed, it seems > to me that in modern (Australian) English "dear" is seen as formal > and "hi" as friendly and informal. > > Tep, the reason my reply to your well-sourced post was so short was > that I have the feeling we are actually not that far apart but I > can't find the language to make this clear. Sometimes I think it > best to leave thoughts settle and develop in their own time. So, > thanks again for sharing the benefit of your research - it has not > been ignored. I should have made this clear earlier. Sorry. > > Best wishes > Andrew > My special friendly thanks go to you, Andrew. Most men I've known are only half as gentle, sensitive, and kind as you are. Warm regards, Tep ====== 58732 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > After coming home today with much joy, Vicki is back in the hospital > tonight. It looks as though she has picked up an infection (fever, vomiting) > Gooodness! So sorry to hear that. My thoughts will be with her for a speedy recovery. Metta, James 58733 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Scott), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Sa: There can be subtle kinds of noticing with an idea of self - still > trying to catch dhammas which have fallen away already. When there is > awareness of a reality, there's no trying or noticing involved. It arises > naturally like seeing or hearing or liking arise. James: Are you saying that if such awarenesss arises "naturally" there is no idea of self involved? It was my understanding that the subtle kind of idea of self you are describing is only eliminated at arahanthood. In other words, isn't self going to be present regardless of if awareness is planned or spontaneous? > > Appreciating what the quality of awareness is and what the objects of > awareness can be is the main condition for it to arise. The big obstacle > is any kind of wrong view concerned with a self trying to catch it or make > it happen. James: I think you are putting a distinction where none exists. > .... > > Some experiences can have their effect, to the detriment of a peaceful > > life, from outside of awareness. We know that things arise and fall > > away faster than the blink of an eye. We know that clinging arises > > all the time. We know that this is more or less "unconscious." I > > think that one can benefit from a secular analysis of what is being > > clung to, but, as you say, only then to let it go. > > > > Actually, I've found, in my own experience, that true realisation of a > > conventional nature dealing with "psychological complexes" does lead > > to their falling away. This is much more than an intellectual > > understanding and has to take into account the visceral and deep > > non-verbal aspects of samsaric experience. I'm speaking here of the > > effect of traumatic events on subsequent development and current or > > ongoing experience. The damage from trauma is instantaneous but then, > > through deep and subtle clinging, lasts long. Its resolution is > > instantaneous, but one has to catch up with this and realise its over. > > For what that's worth. > .... > Sa: I appreciate what you're saying. I don't think there's any conflict. > As I mentioned to James before, understanding of dhamma doesn't mean not > seeking all kinds of help. I admire you for being able to do so. James: Thanks for mentioning me and the encouraging words. It takes courage, and I mean great courage, to face up to your problems and to try to do something about them. The courage is because of the negative evaluations from self and others. It is good when someone doesn't offer that negative evaluation. > > Do you find it helpful to reflect on all the lifetimes we must have > expereinced great traumatic events, on and on? Does this inspire you at > all? James: Speaking for myself, I think it is helpful to reflect on the pain and suffering we must have experienced in past lifetimes. And it is equally important to reflect on all the pain and suffering we have caused others in past lifetimes. Metta, James 58734 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi Herman (and Andrew, Nina) - Thank you for your insight. >H: I see something similar between this sutta and the sutta about not clinging to rafts that have served their purpose. > > If one clings to notions of virtue, one has not left the first carriage. There is no clinging to notions of virtue in subsequent stages. > > That's what I reckon, anyway :-) > Tep: That is a great reckoning, Herman! That surely defines a condition for testing when to leave the first chariot (purification of virtues) to board the second chariot (purification of consciousness = concentration + understanding -- see Vism.). The third chariot is the purification of views (insights on mentality-materiality). But, I must admit, the word "virtue" in the Vism. is so broad that it contradicts with the seven chariots model of Visuddhi, which defines sequential linking without overlapping or looping (non-linear). So, your cut-off condition does not agree with Ven. Buddhaghosa's thesis. "Through the path of Arahantship in the case of all defilements, (a) abandoning is virtue, (b) abstention is virtue, (c) volition is virtue, (d) restraint is virtue, (e) transgression is virtue." [Vism I, 140] If virtue in the Arahant is different than the Sotapanna's, then there is no cut-off point! So the question is: whom should we believe, Ven. Punna Mantaniputta or Ven. Buddhaghosa? However, I should note that the many definitions of virtue in the Vism actually came from the Patisambhidamagga (Ven. Sariputta's discourse). So it is even more confusing because the two arahants Sariputta and Punna both agreed upon the Seven Chariots idea [see MN 24]. Warm regards, Tep ========= -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > wrote: > > > But tell me, is the analogy of a sequential system or not? And why > > would > > > anyone read an analogy of a sequential system as being other than > > > sequential? > > > > Well, that's the heart of the matter, isn't it? The ancient Romans > > used sequential stories as aids to memory (i.e. the sequentialism was > > not the point of the exercise at all - see Rhetorica ad Herennium). > > And medieval European artists painted connected scenes out of > > sequence but ranked according to another system (eg. all pictures > > showing the king came first, even if they were out of sequential > > order). So that's my first question: is the sequence the point of it > > all? > > > These are great examples to illustrate your point! > > I'd like to answer your question, but also leave a bit of a riddle. > (snipped) > -- 58735 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:50pm Subject: Re: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > On another list I was asked about the standing meditation done at the > Bhikkhu Gunaratana retreat. What was asked was whether Bhante introduced it, > what I focussed on, and what additional details I could provide. Thinking that > this might be of interest to some here, I will repeat my reply. I said the > following: > _____________________ > > Bhante G suggested that while doing walking meditation, at the end of a "run" > and after turning around, one stand there "for as long as you want" - it > could be for a minute or even 10 minutes - before resuming the walking. He also > said that one could do standing meditation on its own. > I carried out the standing meditation in much the same way as sitting > meditation: My core attention was on the breath, but with sufficient calm in > place, I opened up my attention to the body as a whole (with breath still at > the center). Interesting. When I was taught standing meditation I was taught to focus on the sensations on the bottom of the feet which are, of course, touching the floor. It was also introduced as an extension of the walking meditation. What we usually did was walking, standing, and then sitting meditation. Maybe I was taught the sensations on the bottom of the feet because they are the most gross and easy to notice. I don't see a problem with focusing on the breath either- for someone advanced. Metta, James 58736 From: "caravoce7" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 4:44pm Subject: Buddhist Prayer caravoce7 Can anyone tell me where this prayer comes from? (This is my translation from French into English, and the French was translated from the original Pali. Much gratitude, Cara) Let all things that breathe, without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieving happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Let all creatures and everywhere, all spirits and all living things, without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieving happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Let all women, Let all men, Aryans and non-Aryans, All gods and all humans, and those who have fallen… without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieving happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. In the East and the West, in the North and the South, that all beings that exist… Without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieve happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Ah. 58737 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 8:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Do mind objects have an intrinsic nature? lbidd2 Hi Rob and Nina, Here's a thought: R: "My second question is, "am I correct interpreting the Vibhanga and Visuddhimagga that mind objects have intrinsic nature?" ______ N: "I think that when we read intrinsically desirable or undesirable, it usually pertains to ruupas experienced by vipaakacittas. It is true that also painful bodily feeling and unhappy feeling that accompanies dosa-muulacitta are undesirable objects. They cannot be object predominance-condition for this reason. I like to be careful about the word intrinsically." L: My understanding is that a resultant consciousness is essentially a copy of the object and "intrinsic nature [value]" is applied to rupa to explain where the feeling that accompanies that resultant consciousness comes from. A registration consciousness, one of the resultants, is a copy of the javana. Since there is no need to explain where the feeling that accompanies a javana citta comes from because a feeling naturally accompanies the javana, it is not necessary to designate the javana as desirable, undesirable, etc. Of course it wouldn't be wrong to call desire 'desirable' and hatred 'undesirable'. But we shouldn't confuse 'desirable' with 'kusala'. A desirable rupa is said to be the object of a kusala vipaka citta but a desirable desire is the object of an akusala vipaka registration citta. Here I believe I am going against convention in saying javana is the object of registration rather than saying the object of citta process is the object of registration. I am saying resultant cittas are copies of their objects because it seems to me that that is the meaning of "impinge" as in "consciousness and the object impinge [with contact]" and because in dependent arising contact is concerned only with resultant consciousnesses (Vism.XVII,221). Also, this follows the simile of the mirror as in ,"the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face" (Vism.XV,41). Eye-consciousness element is a resultant consciousness. I'm not sure how other kinds of consciousness relate to their object. Larry 58738 From: "Cara Tasher" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 8:40pm Subject: question from new member caravoce7 I am new to the list and sent a question to the list earlier (or so I thought) but I'm not sure how to find an answer. I've received many other answers however... My question was regarding a text source for the following: Let all things that breathe, without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieving happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Let all creatures and everywhere, all spirits and all living things, without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieving happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Let all women, Let all men, Aryans and non-Aryans, All gods and all humans, and those who have fallen. without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieving happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. In the East and the West, in the North and the South, that all beings that exist. Without enemies, without obstacles, transcending sadness and achieve happiness be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Ah. Thank you very much, Cara Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Life's most urgent question is: what are you doing for others? (Martin Luther King) -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhatrue Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 9:51 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation Hi Howard, <...> Interesting. When I was taught standing meditation I was taught to focus on the sensations on the bottom of the feet which are, of course, touching the floor. It was also introduced as an extension of the walking meditation. What we usually did was walking, standing, and then sitting meditation. Maybe I was taught the sensations on the bottom of the feet because they are the most gross and easy to notice. I don't see a problem with focusing on the breath either- for someone advanced. Metta, James 58739 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question from new member lbidd2 Hi Cara, Welcome to the group. I don't know the answer to your question, but someone else might. Everyone lives in different time zones and is on different schedules so it usually takes at least a day to get a response. Plus, Yahoo has been acting eratically lately. I just received your first email at about 9:50 PM MST. Check dsg in yahoogroups on the web to be sure. Larry 58740 From: "Cara Tasher" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 10:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] question from new member caravoce7 Thanks, Larry, Cara Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Life's most urgent question is: what are you doing for others? (Martin Luther King) -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LBIDD@... <...> Hi Cara, Welcome to the group. I don't know the answer to your question, but someone else might. Everyone lives in different time zones and is on different schedules so it usually takes at least a day to get a response. Plus, Yahoo has been acting eratically lately. I just received your first email at about 9:50 PM MST. Check dsg in yahoogroups on the web to be sure. Larry 58741 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 10:53pm Subject: The Final Goal ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Final Goal and Destination of the Noble Life? The wanderer Nandiya once asked the Blessed One: Which things, Master Gotama, when developed and refined, lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their end destination, have Nibbana as their final goal? These eight things, Nandiya, when developed and refined lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their last destination, have Nibbana as their final goal. Which eight? Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) These eight things, Nandiya, when developed and refined, lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their target, Nibbana as their final aim! When this was thus spoken, the wanderer Nandiya said to the Blessed One: Magnificent, Master Gotama! Marvellous, Master Gotama! Let the Master Gotama remember me as one, who has taken refuge in the Buddha for life… Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:11-2] section 45:10 Nandiya ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 58742 From: "Fabrizio Bartolomucci" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 11:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition fbartolom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: I did not mean this. Kusala siila: this is kusala through body and > speech. There are many levels and each level is good. When there is paññaa > accompanying siila, it is of a higher level. It can become purer. Then you keep me curious about what you meant... 58743 From: "Fabrizio Bartolomucci" Date: Mon May 1, 2006 11:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta fbartolom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > "... This shows again how Buddhist Ethics or moral principles, like > everything else in Buddhism, are based on a foundation quite > different from morality in other religions. Mental development is > exactly what is needed for the development of morality. For, "when > religion ceases to be wisdom, it becomes superstition overlaid with > reasoning" (George Santayana). In other religions good conduct is > enough to become a saint: "If ye have love ye have perfected the > law," said St Paul to the Ephesians. According to later reformers > like Luther, faith alone is enough for salvation. But in Buddhism > real virtue is impossible without the foundation of reason. The > truth must both be experienced and understood." > > Do you both agree? The issue is one of time: of course the Path includes the three aspects of Sila, Samadhi and Panna. Thus only developing Sila just leads up to the the Bramha world (what, to me, would not to be despised :-) ) and consequently to attain Nibbana morality itself should be trasended like just another bond. The simile is again the one with the boat to cross a river: the usual interpretation points to the fact one should not carry it on his back when walking, but little tought is put on the fact the boat is not to be abandoned while one is in the middle of the river... In fact the risk of tackling wisdom too early is much higher then doing it too late. In the letter case the worst that may happen to us is to spend some lives in higher realms before attaining Nibbana: having entered the strem woeful plans are secluded to us. Conversely Wisdom without Sila does not guarantee entrance into the stream: so someone could still think that in special cases robbing, killing, lying are acceptable and this view, as is well known, is considered "doubt in the teaching of the Buddha" and that is one of the three lower fetters indispensable to the basic objective of Sotapatti. In practice there is also the big risk of committing, while developing wisdom alone, one of the heinous crimes - killing a parent or an Arhat, or, more probably, create a scism in a group of noble people - thus irrevocably barring her way to any further growth. 58744 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question from new member sarahprocter... Hi Cara, Welcome to DSG! I didn't see an earlier question from you. --- Cara Tasher wrote: > My question was regarding a text source for the following: > > Let all things that breathe, > without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieving happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. > > Let all creatures and everywhere, all spirits and all living things, > without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieving happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. > > Let all women, Let all men, Aryans and non-Aryans, > All gods and all humans, and those who have fallen. > without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieving happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. > > In the East and the West, in the North and the South, that all beings > that > exist. > Without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieve happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Ah. .... S: My best guess is that this is someone's free translation/interpretation of a couple of the stanzas of the Metta Discourse, Khuddakapatha (Minor Readings), IX. This is the translation of the lines I have in mind, translated by Nanamoli in the above text: "Joyful and safe Let every creature's heart rejoice Whatever breathing beings there are, No matter whether frail or firm, With none excepted, long or big Or middle-sized or short or small Or thick, or those seen or unseen, Or whether dwelling far or near, That are or that yet seek to be, Let every creature's heart rejoice. Let none another one undo Or slight him at all anywhere; Let them not wish each other ill With provocation or resistive thought." .... S: What do you think? Please tell us a little more about your interest in these lines and anything else about your interest in Buddhism. Where do you live, Cara? Any other questions? Metta, Sarah p.s thanks for your nice sign-off quote too. ====================== 58745 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 1, 2006 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Descartes! sarahprocter... Hi Paul, I'm enjoying your posts including the 'Metta' story. [Btw, for others, K.Sujin's book 'Metta' can be found in the 'Files' section of DSG]. You were asking here about the heart-base: --- Paul Grabianowski wrote: > Buddhism teaches something quite different from Descartes, I think. In > Buddhism mind and matter are in a constant and vital relationship to one > > another. Mind states arise in dependence upon the five senses bases and > the > heart base (I've always taken this as meaning the brain and other > components > of the nervous system in the body, but I wonder if anyone else might > know > more about this?) which in turn arise in dependence upon the attributes > of > matter (rupa). .... S: Please see posts under 'Heart-base (Haddaya-vatthu) in 'Useful Posts' (in files section). I think you'll find them interesting and informative. Come back with any questions (or disagreements!). Metta, Sarah ======= 58746 From: "Fabrizio Bartolomucci" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition fbartolom Dear Sukinder, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinder" wrote: > =========================================== > Sukinder: > In another post you commented in reaction to the idea that there is no self, > that this can lead to a kind of wrong view. Did you have in mind that such a > person might not see the importance of developing Sila and the > Brahmavihaaras? Exact: a thief might pretend he has no responsibilty for his act by being devoid of a self. > The concept of 'no self' taken out of context can seem dangerous I agree. Yes: and I would stress to be so for the majority of us... > However, in context of the Teachings as a whole, this is quite > unlikely to > happen. In fact it may be the very understanding needed to better > come to > appreciate the rest of Dhamma, including the fact of Sila ;-). The Teachings are not meant to be assumed as a single bulk. The Buddhasasana is a gradual teaching, you might remember. As a matter of fact, strictly speaking, the Dhamma is contraddictory and so no consistent logic may be elicited from it. > You know that Sila is a conditioned reality and also that this can be with > or without panna. Moreover, there is also what is called 'akusala sila'. Sure. Micchasila, actually. In fact every path factor has an unwholesome counterpart. > Personally, I wish that I had better accumulations in this department of > self-restraint, i.e. have more of the kusala and less of the akusala > variety, but I don't and that's it. Do I then go about trying to develop > more sila? As soon as possible. The good thing about sila is that it is very easy to develop: at the most basic stage it is enough to "stop" doing some acts. > As you know whatever the citta in the moment, restraint or breaking of the > precepts, it is due to complex set of conditions, beyond control. Sila is a committment: it is a matter for Arhat to be able to keep one's commitments... so you should not bother too much about it :-) > Also, > restraint of the senses is in fact a moment of satipatthana, and this is the > highest good, for at such a moment, there is sila, right concentration and > right understanding all being developed. Yes, but that is again put, as it were, in the ontology of reality. Sila, I repeat, is a committment to do no harm; not an insurance for not doing it! > Sure, if one has lots and lots of sila even without panna, this is > excellent. However there would be no "understanding" developed at those > moments, would there? In our world I think it is impossible to practice Sila without at the same time developing wisdom - short of neither giving up the practice or one's own life. > The development of panna takes its own course starting > with intellectual right understanding, pariyatti. This can go > together with > the development of sila, but sila by itself can't lead to the > development of panna. It just takes some time: but Sila surely leads to Panna. This is expecially true for lay people conducting a relatively normal life. I suggest you to try. > You talk about the danger of falling into wrong view; in fact I think that > the idea of developing sila first as a basis for Samadhi and Panna is one > with such a danger. Because we do not see the importance of developing > 'right understanding' from the very beginning, invariably one aims at > developing 'sila' regardless or not there is 'self view', hence the danger > of 'sila'battaparamasa. The lower fetter hampering entrance into the stream is the attachment to rituals: not sila itself. > I think most people fail to appreciate the role of pariyatti in the > development of panna; this of course comes from not knowing what it really > is. Does one have less sila if one knows intellectually that this is > conditioned and beyond control? I don't think so. One may have the > accumulations for more sila and another may have little, but in both cases, > the development of right understanding, including intellectual understanding > of the fact of 'no self', can only help to condition more sila and other > kusala, don't you think? It may or it may be not. It tends just to increase the stakes. I would expect from someone free of a self either enlightnement or serial killing...! > I think that as student of the Dhamma, at anytime from the very first step > on to the last, the focus should be on the development of Right > Understanding. Other levels of kusala including Dana, Sila and Samatha > Bhavana are to be encouraged, however Dana and Sila can be *developed* only > when there is Right Understanding of them, otherwise they at best only > condition what might be called a 'habitual' response. Ok, this is what you did up to now. Of course you are a judge of your life: if you think your path is going smoothly you had better to keep on doing what you do, in the opposite case you might want to consider this new opportunity. > Besides without Satipatthana, one might only recognize the gross and some > medium akusala. On the other hand, even with right understanding of the > intellectual level, one may begin slowly to recognize some forms of akusala > otherwise mistaken for kusala. In other words, akusala sila is distinguished > from kusala sila. At the basic level Sila means keeping the precepts: and I do not doubt even a 5 years old child would say if an act is done according to the precepts or not. > Indeed the Buddha taught according to the audience's level of understanding, > but I don't think he ever overlooked the importance of developing right > view, even though it may appear to us upon reading some Suttas, that he did. That is your opinion. Of course I have another, and other people have still others... who really knows what the Buddha really meant? > Certainly, Anathapindaka was already a Sotapanna wasn't he? I think he knew > Abhidhamma, only he never heard it the way it was expressed. But perhaps you > have a different idea of what Abhidhamma really is? To my understanding, the > way the teachings are laid out in the Abhidhamma and explained in light of > the present moment, is the best teachings for us "dummies". The Suttas on > the other hand, where one is required to understand context and look out for > 'self view' is harder for us. > > What do you think? I think the Vinaya is the best teaching for us. > Again welcome, and hope you stick around. :-) With pleasure... Ciao, Fabrizio 58747 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition nilovg Dear Fabrizio, I do not understand your question. Nina. op 02-05-2006 08:10 schreef Fabrizio Bartolomucci op f.bartolomucci@...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> N: I did not mean this. Kusala siila: this is kusala through body and >> speech. There are many levels and each level is good. When there is > paññaa >> accompanying siila, it is of a higher level. It can become purer. > > Then you keep me curious about what you meant... 58748 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do mind objects have an intrinsic nature? nilovg Hi Larry, op 02-05-2006 05:37 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > . A > desirable rupa is said to be the object of a kusala vipaka citta but a > desirable desire is the object of an akusala vipaka registration citta. > Here I believe I am going against convention in saying javana is the > object of registration rather than saying the object of citta process is > the object of registration. -------- N: the Pa.t.thaana (Condiitonal Relations): Akusala can condition akusala citta by way of object-predominance-condition. We read in the "Paììhåna'',in the same section,§415: Œ(One)esteems, enjoys and delights in lust. Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arises wrong views. (One)esteems, enjoys and delights in wrong views. Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arise wrong views.> It is not object of registration vipaakacitta, but object of akusala citta rooted in lobha, arising in a following process. Nina. 58749 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 2:18am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 74 and 75 nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 74 and 75 ******************************** Text Vis.74. (5) Proximity condition is the same as 'contiguity condition'. The difference here is only in the letter, there is none in the meaning; just as in the case of the words 'growth' and 'continuity' (Ch. XIV, 66), etc., and as in the case of the 'terminology dyad', 'language dyad' (Dhs. 1306), and so on. --------- N: Growth and continuity are different terms for ruupa at its arising moment. Also the terms Œterminology¹, adhivacana, and Œlanguage¹, nirutti, are different words but they are the same in meaning. ****** Visuddhimagga 75: **************** Intro: Those who have developed samatha up to the fourth stage of aruupa-jhaana, the "Sphere of Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception " and who have also realized the stage of enlightenment of the anågåmí, non-returner, or of the arahat, can attain "cessation", nirodha-samaapatti. This is the temporary suspension of citta, cetasikas and mind-produced ruupa. Ruupas produced by kamma, temperature and nutriment, in the case of human beings, and ruupas produced by kamma and temperature, in the case of beings in the Brahma plane, continue to arise. When they emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is the phala-citta, fruition-consciousness (lokuttara vipåkacitta), which has nibbåna as its object. For the anaagaamii it is the phala-citta of the anaagaamii and for the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat. This citta is conditioned by way of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition by the preceding citta, the aruupa-jaanacitta of the fourth stage which occurred prior to cessation. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed by the temporary suspension of citta during cessation. The Vis. (75) refutes misunderstandings of some teachers who think that proximity-condition and continuity-condition are different in meaning. The Vis. explains that, although there is the suspension of citta and cetasikas during cessation, the first citta arising after this is conditioned by the citta preceding the cessation, by way of proximity-condition and continuity-condition. --------- Vis. text 75: The opinion of [certain] teachers [13] is that proximity condition refers to proximity of aim (fruit) and continuity condition refers to proximity of time. But that is contradicted by such statements as 'The profitable [consciousness] belonging to the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in one who emerges from cessation is a condition, as contiguity condition, for fruition attainment [consciousness]' (P.tn.1,160). ---------------------- N: In the next section (76) this will be further explained. Note 13. 'This refers to the Elder Revata too' (Pm. 586). ********* Nina. 58750 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) It may seem uninteresting to investigate realities such as visible object, seeing, sound or hearing, but we should remember that right understanding of realities bears directly on our daily life. It can eliminate wrong bodily action, wrong verbal action and wrong mental action. When wrong view has been eradicated completely we shall never again neglect the five precepts since there are no more conditions for neglecting them. Even when one has not yet become a sotåpanna, mindfulness can prevent akusala kamma. For instance, when there is an unpleasant sound aversion may arise and it could motivate akusala kamma. Whereas when there is mindfulness of sound as only a kind of rúpa, not the voice of someone, not the sound of a radio, the doors are guarded. When mindfulness guards the six doors it is to the benefit of ourselves as well as of other people. ***** (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 58751 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:58am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) philofillet Hi all > Even when one has not yet become a sotåpanna, mindfulness can prevent > akusala kamma. For instance, when there is an unpleasant sound aversion > may arise and it could motivate akusala kamma. Whereas when there > is mindfulness of sound as only a kind of rúpa, not the voice of > someone, not the sound of a radio, the doors are guarded. When > mindfulness guards the six doors it is to the benefit of ourselves > as well as of other people. The stray cats are yowling every night. On one night I really wanted to kill them. On another night there was remembering the above, and there was a release from akusala. I remember Tep told a similar story about noisy neighbours, I think. But was it really "mindfulness" for me? I don't think so - it was remembering and thinking about what I read in ADL, and it was very helpful. But I don't think it was mindfulness of the characteristic of the dhammas involved. So, again, an appreciation of how even shallow intellectual understanding can be so helpful. But it is not yet satipatthana for me. Phil 58752 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defining 'Mental Phenomena' sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Herman), Firstly, many thx for reporting back on your weekend....maybe more on that later. --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: What exactly is experienced when you think 'wetness' is > experienced? > > ==================== > Something other than just coldness. I don't know how to answer > "what" > it is. It *seems* to be what we uniquely call "wetness". Of course, > there is > the possibility that it is a combination of tactile experiences > perceptually > summed up (pa~n~natti) as "wetness". But it *seems* to be unique. > .... S: I think this is right. Different rupas are experienced so quickly through different body sense processes that the various combinations are 'perceptually summed up' as you describe, giving them that unique characterisation. Even now, if I touch the door and then the door handle, even though there are only various kinds of temperature, solidity and motion experienced in each case, the combinations of experiences are quite different and hence each is 'remembered' and given a different label accordingly. I think we agree on these topics, Howard. As for Herman's interesting points on this topic, I think your comments were pretty much on target. Hearing depends on ear-sense, even when the sound is distorted or re-oriented/shielded etc. Recollections or dreams of sounds can seem just as real as sounds depending on ear-sense of course. As for tinnitis, I'll pass for now, but would suggest it also depends on ear-sense. Metta, Sarah ======= 58753 From: "Linda DaCosta" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] "Labelling" in satipatthaana dacostacharles Hi Scott, I remember going through the same stages (i.e., from conscious willful labeling to observing the normal process of labeling). To me, what you are doing is a good practice, but just remember that there are even more stages after this. In my opinion, the goal of the first stage (i.e., conscious willful labeling of what ever comes to mind) is primarily concern with becoming aware of thinking and the present moment -- That endless ever-changing moment. This path leads to, or embraces, the 8-Fold path because it develops concentration leading to wisdom leading to morality (i.e., being basically a good person). When I was on the same road, I uncovered that the practice can help you see (visualize) how the mind works; i.e., there is an object in the mind and/or a chain of events. One is usually triggered by the other, and it is the very process of labeling that is the driver. Understanding this is beginning of wisdom, and to get to this point you must already have a high level of concentration. I learned that labels are also part of the value system we use to justify every thing from "existence" to why "the worm should be allowed to die, since it is a bird that is trying to eat it." Next, you begin to understand "things" and how your mind deals with them. From this, I begin to realize that all are just labels (i.e., no real inherent value, not a real justification for immoral acts). From this space, we can control/dictate the nature of your attachments. This is a practice in itself. Charles -----Original Message----- A question: In the practise of satipatthaana, as I understand, one is to label that which one becomes aware of when it arises. I find this to be "heavy-handed" in practise. It gets in the way and feels totally contrived and unnatural. I do notice, though, that there is a quieter or more subtle "labelling" that I can experience if I don't speak loudly in my mind. I find that the "label" seems to arise more smoothly and sort of "hears itself" or "thinks itself" or something. I'd prefer to pay attention to this. It does seem to take some cultivation, that is, it seems to come when I don't try to label what arises in the way I think one is instructed to. Scott. 58754 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 2, 2006 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] question from new member upasaka_howard Hi, Cara - In a message dated 5/1/06 11:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caravoce@... writes: > I am new to the list and sent a question to the list earlier (or so I > thought) but I'm not sure how to find an answer. I've received many other > answers however... > > My question was regarding a text source for the following: > > Let all things that breathe, > without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieving happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. > > Let all creatures and everywhere, all spirits and all living things, > without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieving happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. > > Let all women, Let all men, Aryans and non-Aryans, > All gods and all humans, and those who have fallen. > without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieving happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. > > In the East and the West, in the North and the South, that all beings that > exist. > Without enemies, without obstacles, > transcending sadness and achieve happiness > be able to move freely along the path that is destined for them. Ah. > > > Thank you very much, > > Cara > > ========================== Please see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#khp-9. This is a beautiful sutta. For you convenience, I copy it below. With metta, Howard ____________________ 9. Karaniya Metta Sutta — Loving-Kindness [This sutta also appears at Sn I.8. Alternate translations: Buddharakkhita | Amaravati | Piyadassi | Thanissaro.] What should be done by one skillful in good So as to gain the State of Peace is this: Let him be able, and upright and straight, Easy to speak to, gentle, and not proud, Contented too, supported easily, With few tasks, and living very lightly; His faculties serene, prudent, and modest, Unswayed by the emotions of the clans; And let him never do the slightest thing That other wise men might hold blamable. (And let him think:) "In safety and in bliss May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near, Existing or yet seeking to exist. May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Let no one work another one's undoing Or even slight him at all anywhere: And never let them wish each other ill Through provocation or resentful thought." And just as might a mother with her life Protect the son that was her only child, So let him then for every living thing Maintain unbounded consciousness in being; And let him too with love for all the world Maintain unbounded consciousness in being Above, below, and all round in between, Untroubled, with no enemy or foe. And while he stands or walks or while he sits Or while he lies down, free from drowsiness, Let him resolve upon this mindfulness: This is Divine Abiding here, they say. But when he has no trafficking with views, Is virtuous, and has perfected seeing, And purges greed for sensual desires, He surely comes no more to any womb. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 58755 From: "Linda DaCosta" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] "Rely on yourself" to what? dacostacharles Hi Phil, I am a little confused because I did not see the terms "rely on yourself;" However, if it does exits in the sutra, it may be because of the following. According to the sutra, the Kalamas should know for themselves: 1. What qualities are unskillful, blameworthy, and criticized by the wise. 2. That the type of qualities described by item 1 lead to harm and to suffering when adopted and carried out; therefore, this type of qualities should be abandon. 3. What qualities are skillful, blameless, and praised by the wise 4. That the type of qualities described by item 3 lead to welfare and to happiness when adopted and carried out; therefore, this type of qualities should be enter and remain in. In my opinion, if you know the 4 items above, you should "rely on yourself" to do the right thing because you already know "right" from "wrong." You don't need to be re-taught them. Charles -----Original Message----- Hi all Could someone clarify for me what the "rely on yourself" in the kalama sutta refers to? Your own words or commentary passage rather than just the sutta passage, please. Phil 58756 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 5:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition indriyabala Hi Nina (and Fabrizio) - I was waiting for Fabrizio to continue the discussion. > >> N: I did not mean this. Kusala siila: this is kusala through body and > >> speech. There are many levels and each level is good. > >> When there is paññaa accompanying siila, it is > >>of a higher level. It can become purer. > > Fabrizio: > > Then you keep me curious about what you meant... > >Nina: I do not understand your question. Tep: I think I do. I understand his question because I am not clear either what kind of paññaa you meant by "paññaa accompanying siila, it is of a higher level". Is it at the level of worldlings practicing siila to develop a foundation for adhi-samadhi and adhi-paññaa later? Or is that paññaa belonging to Sotapanna? Or is it at the arahant level? The following two suttas provide key ideas about the basic siila that is praised by the Buddha and what he meant by paññaa of stream-entry (not at the arahant level). These are just two examples out of the many available suttas. 1. The basic siila is the ten kusala kammapatha. "Now, Cunda, there are three ways in which one is made pure by bodily action, four ways in which one is made pure by verbal action, and three ways in which one is made pure by mental action. "And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action. "And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world. Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord. Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action. "And how is one made pure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made pure in three ways by mental action. "These, Cunda, are the ten courses of skillful action." [AN X.176] 2. Discernment : paññaa that penetrates the Four Noble Truth to cut off the first three fetters. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... And what are the ideas fit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality does not arise, and the arisen effluent of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen effluent of becoming... the unarisen effluent of ignorance does not arise, and the arisen effluent of ignorance is abandoned... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the effluents that are to be abandoned by seeing." [MN 2] Warm regards, Tep ............ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Fabrizio, > I do not understand your question. > Nina. > > op 02-05-2006 08:10 schreef Fabrizio Bartolomucci op > f.bartolomucci@...: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > > wrote: 58757 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 5:43am Subject: Re: "Rely on yourself" to what? philofillet Hi Charles Thanks for your succinct explanation. > I am a little confused because I did not see the terms "rely on yourself;" > However, if it does exits in the sutra, it may be because of the following. Probably my mistake. I've always had the idea that those words appear in that sutta, but they might be from the rather wonky book of mahayana excerpts that I found in a Japanese hotel room (a la gideon's) and which were my introduction to Dhamma. This book contains lots of pithy expressions which have stuck with me (such as "a thousand candles can be lit by a single flame") but which I haven't come across in the Pali canon. Phil 58758 From: "Fabrizio Bartolomucci" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 5:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition fbartolom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi Nina (and Fabrizio) - > > I was waiting for Fabrizio to continue the discussion. I would be happy to comply if only someone showed me the direction. 58759 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 5:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Daer Friend Fabrizio (and Nina, Andrew) - The following explanation you gave to Andrew is wonderful -- it should also be a good answer for Nina about practicing of virtues and understanding! >Fabrizio: >In fact the risk of tackling wisdom too early is much higher than doing it too late. In the latter case the worst that may happen to us is to spend some lives in higher realms before attaining Nibbana: having entered the stream woeful plans are secluded to us. >Conversely Wisdom without Sila does not guarantee entrance into the stream: so someone could still think that in special cases robbing, killing, lying are acceptable and this view, as is well known, is considered "doubt in the teaching of the Buddha" and that is one of the three lower fetters indispensable to the basic objective of Sotapatti. [Tep: What about drinking wines and whiskey?] >In practice there is also the big risk of committing, while developing wisdom alone, one of the heinous crimes - killing a parent or an Arahat, or, more probably, create a scism in a group of noble people -thus irrevocably barring their way to any further growth. [endquote] Well said, well said ! Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Fabrizio Bartolomucci" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > "... This shows again how Buddhist Ethics or moral principles, like > > everything else in Buddhism, are based on a foundation quite > > different from morality in other religions. Mental development is > > exactly what is needed for the development of morality. For, "when > > religion ceases to be wisdom, it becomes superstition overlaid with > > reasoning" (George Santayana). In other religions good conduct is > > enough to become a saint: "If ye have love ye have perfected the > > law," said St Paul to the Ephesians. According to later reformers > > like Luther, faith alone is enough for salvation. But in Buddhism > > real virtue is impossible without the foundation of reason. The > > truth must both be experienced and understood." > > > > Do you both agree? > > The issue is one of time: of course the Path includes the three > aspects of Sila, Samadhi and Panna. Thus only developing Sila just > leads up to the the Bramha world (what, to me, would not to be > despised :-) ) and consequently to attain Nibbana morality itself > should be trasended like just another bond. The simile is again the > one with the boat to cross a river: the usual interpretation points to > the fact one should not carry it on his back when walking, but little > tought is put on the fact the boat is not to be abandoned while one is > in the middle of the river... > (snipped) 58760 From: Daniel Date: Tue May 2, 2006 6:40am Subject: First Noble Truth daniell@... Good day. I have been contemplated on the first noble truth. What I understand from this is that all happiness and all suffering are conditioned. I feel happy \ sad because I have something \ I do not have. My kusala \ akusala feelings depend partly upon my habits, partly on external conditions. Since it does not seem that there is a way that I can hold something forever, or make a certain external condition stay forever, it seems that lasting hapiness is not possible. For me, this is rather sad to reflect on it. Sad, pessimistic. I wonder if I misinterpret something, or I am missing something. Of course, the third noble truth is about the cessation of suffering, so that can be a ground for optimism. But, I have read in different places that the understanding of the first noble truth itself (even without the understanding of the third one ) should bring some quality of lightness to one's life. Is I do not remember from where exactly (I have not read Suttas at all), but from books by practitioners I get the impression that understanding the first noble truth should bring less clinging, less heavyness with regards' to one's own life. Is it incorrect, or am I missing something? Have a good day! 58761 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) nilovg Hi Phil, op 02-05-2006 12:58 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > The stray cats are yowling every night. On one night I really > wanted to kill them. On another night there was remembering the > above, and there was a release from akusala. I remember Tep told a > similar story about noisy neighbours, I think. > > But was it really "mindfulness" for me? I don't think so - it was > remembering and thinking about what I read in ADL, and it was very > helpful. ------- N: But still a level of sati. Right remembrance of dhamma is a proximate cause for satipa.t.thaana. Instead of straycats I have new neighbours, almost as noisy as the former ones. Difficult to be aware of just sound. This morning I listened to the Thai, of Kh Sujin about dosa and that this characteristic also can be known. It is always good to have reminders like that. But if we can follow up again... that we do not have for the wishing. Nina. 58762 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:siila and satipa.t.thaana. nilovg Hi Tep and Fabrizio, op 02-05-2006 14:32 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > > Tep: I think I do. I understand his question because I am not clear > either what kind of paññaa you meant by "paññaa accompanying siila, it > is of a higher level". Is it at the level of worldlings practicing > siila to develop a foundation for adhi-samadhi and adhi-paññaa later? > Or is that paññaa belonging to Sotapanna? Or is it at the arahant level? ------- N: siila together with satipa.t.thaana. This is for worldlings who begin to develop satipa.t.thaana, and also for ariyans. Again, there can be siila without satipa.t.thaana, but if there are conditions for satipa.t.thaana it is most beneficial. I do not see any controversities or difficult points here, do you? The development of understanding, or, in other words, satipa.t.thaana can only be beneficial, for all kind of kusala. It is never dangerous. When there is awareness there can also be mettaa, not harming others. We do not have to think of adhi, etc. these are fulfilled when there is samma-di.t.thi, etc. of the eightfold Path. In this light I see the two beautiful suttas you quote. I really appreciate them. I like what is said as to speech, i left the quote below. Fit for attention: this is about wise attention and unwise attention. Wise attention is a proximate cause of kusala, as is said in the Co. Wise attention to the object experienced at this very moment. Let us not forget that all these suttas pertain to the present moment, then we can get the most from them. I just quote from Cetasikas as posted today: Nina. Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive > speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those > people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does > not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. > Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who > are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, > speaks things that create concord. > 2. Discernment : paññaa that penetrates the Four Noble Truth to cut > off the first three fetters. > > "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas > are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. 58763 From: "sukinder" Date: Wed May 3, 2006 2:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition sukinderpal Hi Joop, Long time no write. Thanks for responding. I got a little busy and couldn’t respond more promptly. You wrote: ------------------------------------------- > That reminds me of a discussion I had with Jon some months ago about > one aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path, and thus of sila: right > livelihood. > I stated that "right livelihood" is an example of ethical behavior. > Sila (see translation below; especially the word 'manifested') has two > aspects: the inner one (kusala - akusala) and the interpersonal one, > said in another way: the factual behavior and the intention behind > that behavioral act. > I'm afraid you do (like Jon did) forget the behavioral aspect of sila. > From Nyatiloka's Dictionary: > síla: 'morality', 'virtue', is a mode of mind and volition (cetana, > q.v.) manifested in speech or bodily action (s. karma). It is the > foundation of the whole Buddhist practice, and therewith the first of > the 3 kinds of training (sikkhá, q.v.) that form the 3-fold division > of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), i.e. morality, concentration and > wisdom. S: I am not sure exactly what you are asking. And I have not bothered to search for and read your discussion with Jon. And since Right Livelihood is about such livelihood that is in keeping with the Five Precepts, hence Sila, I will try to keep the discussion simple by focusing on that level. Are you saying that because the outward manifestation of sila through speech and body is perceived by others and therefore effect them, that we should consider not only whether the citta is kusala or not, but also under certain circumstances, outward actions? Also is this by any chance related to your theory about ‘social citta’? ;-) Assuming that one or both of these is the reason, I give some comments below. I think there is only this citta arising one at a time, some of which is involved in “thinking”. Any time the ‘other’ becomes the object of citta, it is only by way of thought. With other people as the object of citta, sometimes there is akusala cittas with greed, aversion, conceit, envy, stinginess etc. or there is kusala, with non-greed, non-aversion, generosity, friendliness, compassion, sympathetic joy etc. No need I think, anywhere to posit any kind of citta which supposedly interacts with the other’s citta. You also brought up the fact about certain instinctive behavior of animals as evidence of the presence of cittas interacting with cittas of others, am I right? The way I like to think about this is that all this is due to the speed of cittas and conditioned behavior of picking up cues from the environment. It just seems to us, because we don’t perceive those same signals that it must happen somehow on the level of consciousness, invisible to the senses. Besides, the different states of mind constituting on one side the unwholesome and on the other the wholesome which I gave above, these have *concepts* of ‘beings’ as object and it is a matter of regular arising of the one while less of the other, that the end result, which being, a good social behavior, comes about. There is really no need for a social citta! Now you may not have this in mind at all, but here you simply think that one should and must consider from the standpoint of ‘beings’ as a conventional reality. You also say elsewhere, that you feel more and more inclined to the Mahayana perspective, is this because the Theravada seems limited to you since it advise little in terms of behavior towards other beings? Do you therefore see this as straying towards being self-centered or even selfish? I appreciate that you have the accumulations to think about other people as much as you do. But this is a personal inclination and should not be taken as determining where the stress should be made in terms of developing wholesome qualities such as sila and the Brahmavihaaras. I don’t think that kusala is developed by any decision to be good to others. Such thoughts may be conditioned to arise, but they are just that, ‘a thought’. Kusala is developed only with panna either of Samatha or vipassana. Take the example of radiating Metta. Most people think that the more they think about other people and the more people they think about, that this will condition more metta. But they forget to think of the reverse, i.e. that the more metta there is, the greater will be the number of people affected. So isn’t it in fact all about one’s own citta? Also consider the Paramis, there is Dana, Sila and Metta as Paramis. All Paramis are developed only with panna. I think I may not have answered you satisfactorily. If so, please give me some more leads. Metta, Sukinder 58764 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 7:44am Subject: metta 8 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. Date: Tue May 2, 2006 9:16am Subject: Re:siila and satipa.t.thaana. indriyabala Dear Nina (and Fabriozo, Andrew, James) - At this stage of our discussion I can sense that we understand what each person's main points are. These points don't have to coincide: there is always the freedom of choice we can make to follow the Great Sage's wonderful Teachings. > > Tep: I understand his question because I am not clear either what kind of paññaa you meant by "paññaa accompanying siila, it is of a higher level". Is it at the level of worldlings practicing siila to develop a foundation for adhi-samadhi and adhi-paññaa later? Or is that paññaa belonging to Sotapanna? Or is it at the arahant level? >Nina: >siila together with satipa.t.thaana. > This is for worldlings who begin to >develop satipa.t.thaana, and also for ariyans. >Again, there can be siila without satipa.t.thaana, but if there are >conditions for satipa.t.thaana it is most beneficial. I do not see >any controversities or difficult points here, do you? ...................... Tep: I don't understand your answer. I have no idea why satipatthana is paññaa that accompanies siila. The right mindfulness is the same as satipatthana, according to the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta. The right mindfulness is one of the five faculties(indriya) and the faculty of discernment (paññaa) is another one of the indriya. They are not the same ! The most difficult point that I've seen is your tactic of avoiding direct answer to a straightforward question, or skillful invention of a "new" concept that is confusing. Such "tactic" is effective only in a warfare, but it certainly leads to confusion and lost of attention in me. Please do not worry about replying to this message because I am no longer interested in pursuing this discussion further. Sorry. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > (snipped) > The development of understanding, or, in other words, satipa.t.thaana can > only be beneficial, for all kind of kusala. It is never dangerous. > > When there is awareness there can also be mettaa, not harming others. > We do not have to think of adhi, etc. these are fulfilled when there is > samma-di.t.thi, etc. of the eightfold Path. > In this light I see the two beautiful suttas you quote. I really appreciate > them. I like what is said as to speech, i left the quote below. > > Fit for attention: this is about wise attention and unwise attention. Wise > attention is a proximate cause of kusala, as is said in the Co. Wise > attention to the object experienced at this very moment. Let us not forget > that all these suttas pertain to the present moment, then we can get the > most from them. > I just quote from Cetasikas as posted today: > > object, seeing, sound or hearing, but we should remember that > right understanding of realities bears directly on our daily life. It > can eliminate wrong bodily action, wrong verbal action and wrong > mental action.> > Nina. > (snipped) 58766 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:siila and satipa.t.thaana. nilovg Hi Tep, wait, wait. Just one remark. I am never thinking of any tactics, or trying to cleverly avoid points, honestly. I am just thinking out loud and trying to consider for myself, and also to formulate it, which is also good for myself. When I say satipa.t.thaana, I mean the development of understanding of what appears now, and this includes sati and paññaa. That is the way I always understood it. They are not the same but go together in satipa.t.thaana. It is your decision if you would rather not continue to discuss. I go away on Friday as you know. Let us see how it goes after my vacation. No problem (mai pen rai!). Nina. op 02-05-2006 18:16 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > >> Nina: >> siila together with satipa.t.thaana. >> This is for worldlings who begin to >> develop satipa.t.thaana, and also for ariyans. >> Again, there can be siila without satipa.t.thaana, but if there are >> conditions for satipa.t.thaana it is most beneficial. I do not see >> any controversities or difficult points here, do you? > ...................... > > Tep: I don't understand your answer. I have no idea why satipatthana > is paññaa that accompanies siila. The right mindfulness is the same as > satipatthana, according to the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta. The > right mindfulness is one of the five faculties(indriya) and the > faculty of discernment (paññaa) is another one of the indriya. They > are not the same ! > > The most difficult point that I've seen is your tactic of avoiding > direct answer to a straightforward question, or skillful invention of > a "new" concept that is confusing. Such "tactic" is effective only in > a warfare, but it certainly leads to confusion and lost of attention > in me. > > Please do not worry about replying to this message because I am no > longer interested in pursuing this discussion further. Sorry. 58767 From: "Joop" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:05am Subject: The two truths - end of a myth jwromeijn Hallo all, The last half year I more and more got the idea that the idea of the two truth, or the two realities, is not at all a good idea. Okay, the 'conventional realities' (concepts) are in fact an illusion, but how about the 'ultimate realities' ? My thoughts went in the direction that Abhidhamma is only a theory, to describe the undescribable. That was dificult because not only Abhidhamma, also an important part of Mahayana, for example Nagarjuna's work, is basede on the two truths idea. So I'm glad that even Stephen Batchelor has formulated his doubts on it: see below Metta Joop The Two Truths by Stepehn Batchelor "Very often," says Maurice Walshe in the introduction to his translation of the Long Discourses of the Buddha (Digha Nikaya), "the Buddha talks in the Suttas in terms of conventional or relative truth (sammuti-sacca), according to which people and things exist just as they appear to the naïve understanding. Elsewhere, however, when addressing and audience capable of appreciating his meaning, he speaks in terms of ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca)." This passage confirms a view familiar to all Buddhists, no matter what school to which they belong. It is technically known as the doctrine of the Two Truths, according to which reality is divided into two "levels": the conventional and the ultimate, the relative and the absolute – or, as I translated it somewhere – the partial and the sublime. It might come as a surprise, therefore – particularly after having just read the words of an eminent translator of the Buddha's word – to learn that nowhere among the discourses (sutta) in the Pali canon does the Buddha use such terms. This famous distinction between "relative" and "absolute" truth is entirely alien to these early texts. One can certainly interpret his teaching through the lens of such an idea (which, if you read the passage carefully, is what Maurice Walshe does) but bear in mind that the distinction itself is one the Buddha never employed. The notion of Two Truths goes entirely against the grain of what the Buddha taught. Siddhattha Gotama's teaching is not founded on absolutes of any kind. He avoids the deeply ingrained assumption of much religious thought that reality is somehow split down the middle (God and Creation / Brahman and Maya / Nirvana and Samsara / Emptiness and Form). Ironically, of course, such divisions are blatantly dualistic – a position most Buddhists are supposed to be at pains to avoid. In one of the most succinct accounts of his enlightenment, the Buddha speaks of awakening to "dependent origination," a truth that is "hard to see" since it "goes against the worldly stream." (Ariyapariyesana Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 26, section 19). In modern parlance, his insight was counterintuitive. Why? because it went against two "streams": our instinctive mental habit to split reality into two, and the outward expression of that habit in religious doctrines such as the Two Truths. The Buddha awakened to a glittering plurality of endlessly arising and vanishing phenomena. No God created it; no Mind underpins it; no Unconditioned lies somewhere outside it. Ethics, meditation and wisdom are not founded on some absolute truth, but grow out of a careful examination of what causes suffering and what brings it to an end. Enlightenment, for the Buddha, entailed simply paying attention to the phenomenal flux of your own empirical experience. The doctrine of the Two Truths seems to have emerged fairly soon after the Buddha's death. It is not a later Mahayana idea; for it was already taken for granted in the early Abhidhamma. I suspect that it was the first step in the progressive brahminization of Buddhism in India. The Two Truth doctrine is strikingly reminiscent of the Upanishadic teaching that the world of appearances is an illusion (maya) that separates us from the transcendent, absolute reality of God (brahman). But that, of course, was the worldview the Buddha sought to abandon. He wanted to replace it with another way of seeing things altogether: the radical contingency of all existence, devoid of any intrinsic self-essence or God. 58768 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] First Noble Truth nilovg Dear Daniel, also a good day to you! op 02-05-2006 15:40 schreef Daniel op daniell@...: > > I have been contemplated on the first noble truth. .... Since it does not > seem that there is a way that I can hold something forever, or make a certain > external condition stay forever, it seems that lasting hapiness is not > possible. > > For me, this is rather sad to reflect on it. Sad, pessimistic. I wonder if I > misinterpret something, or I am missing something. Of course, the third noble > truth is about the cessation of suffering, so that can be a ground for > optimism. But, I have read in different places that the understanding of the > first noble truth itself (even without the understanding of the third one ) > should bring some quality of lightness to one's life. Is I do not remember > from > where exactly (I have not read Suttas at all), but from books by practitioners > I > get the impression that understanding the first noble truth should bring less > clinging, less heavyness with regards' to one's own life. Is it incorrect, or > am I missing something? -------- N: When there is understanding, it means that there is wholesome consciousness, kusala citta, and at the moment of kusala, there is calm, no place for sadness or pessimism. It is just as it is in life, that you cannot hold for ever what is happiness. There is a deeper sense of dukkha, translated as suffering or unsatisfactoriness. Actually, each colour, each sound, each pleasant sense-object, each enjoyment, each pleasant feeling falls away very fast as soon as it has arisen. That is momentary impermanence, only directly penetrated by understanding that has been developed further. Then one understands the deepest sense of dukkha: that what goes away immediately cannot be hold on to, it is no refuge. The cause of dukkha is craving. We read in the Commentary which is the Pi.taka Disclosure (no 52) a quote from Udana, Verses of Uplift: (Ud. 92). ****** Nina. 58769 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] The two truths - post of Suan. nilovg Dear Joop and friends, thank you, Joop, for the article by Stephhn Batchelor. That is his point of view. It may be of interest to hear also another point of view so that different views can be compared with each other. I quote a post by Suan given here on dsg before. I leave out some of the Pali text. Suan: end of quote. **** Nina. op 02-05-2006 20:05 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > The last half year I more and more got the idea that the idea of the > two truth, or the two realities, is not at all a good idea. 58770 From: connie Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:53am Subject: re: conditions, God willing ... Ignorance nichiconn from Pitaka Disclosure [15. The Ninefold Thread in the Mode of Conveying Requisites] 401. Herein, what is the Mode of Conveying Requisites? Cleansing and corruption too Are both with cause and with condition; The search for both of these is called The Mode Conveying Requisites. So the cause for ideas-with-a-cause must be sought out and the condition for those with a condition must be sought out. 402. Herein, what is the difference between the cause (cf.##199, 267) and the condition (cf.#267)? The same-essence (individual-essence) is the cause and the other-essence is the condition; but, though it is the same-essence's cause that is the other-essence's condition, [nevertheless when] the causality [is regarded] as a condition for any other-essence at all it is not called "cause", it is called "condition". The in-oneself is the cause while the external is the condition. The generator is the cause while the receiver is the condition. The resident is the cause while the visitor is the condition. The unshared is the cause while the shared is the condition. The cause is one only while the condition has distant consecutivity; [for the condition is] the cause's aid when the procuring-cause is procurable. 403. Herein, the condition is twofold as condition-in-immediate-proximity and condition-in-remote-relation (#267). The cause is also twofold as cause-in-immediate proximity and cause-in-remote-relation. 404. Herein, what is the condition-in-remote-relation? Ignorance is name-and-form's condition-in-remote-relation, while consciousness is its condition through conditionality-in-immediate-proximity; if there is cessation of ignorance in the beginning, there is also cessation of name-and-form. Herein, why immediate succession? [Because] the condition-in-remote-relation is procured through the condition-in-immediate proximity. This is as to condition. 405. [105] Herein, what is cause-in-remote-relation? Ignorance is consciousness's cause by causality-in-remote-relation while determinations are its cause by causality-in-immediate-proximity; for when something generates something next to it, it is its cause too. With cessation of ignorance, cessation of determinations; with cessation of determinations, cessation of consciousness. This is how the cause too is twofold. 406. And that condition is dependently arisen. As ignorance is a condition, what is its condition? That is unreasoned attention. [And ignorance] is a condition for what? For determinations. So it [i.e. ignorance] is a condition and is [dependently] arisen. 407. What is its cause? Ignorance itself; for it is in this way that "no past beginning is evident" (#1041). Herein, ignorance as underlying-tendency is the cause of ignorance as manifest-obsession: the prior is the cause for the subsequent. That [second kind of] ignorance is also a condition for determinations for four reasons, namely (1) by conditionality-through-conascence, (2) by conditionality-through-immediate-proximity, (3) by conditionality-through-drenching, and (4) by conditionality-through-standing-point. 408. (1) How is ignorance a condition, by conditionality-through-conascence, for determinations? [It is so for any] congnizance obsessed by lust. Herein, owing to the obsession by lust, it destroys all understanding's province. 409. Herein, as to "determinations": they are those which, having become established in the triple [relationship of] condition, and having obtained a plane [of existence], being mainly arisen with ignorance, proceed to maturity, growth, and abundance. 410. Understanding is lost through four reasons. What four? (a) underlying-tendency, (b) manifest obsession, (c) fetter, and (d) assuming. Herein, from the underlying-tendency is born the manifest obsession. When obsessed, one is fettered. When fettered, one assumes. With assuming as condition, being. 411. [106] So these determinations, being triply arisen, and arrived at a plane [of being], and mainly not stopped by the Path, it is said that (cf. M.i,433). 412. That is how there is also a condition for determinations in the sense of being arisen with a cause. 413. [But] the condition, [so far treated] disregarding any demonstrated profitable or unprofitable [aspect], must have the profitable and unprofitable [aspects] inserted, and the ideas ripening [from the condition, so far treated,] without any statable-unstatable [aspect], must have the statable and the unstatable [aspects] inserted. Except for that which exceeds the range of being (?); the whole Thread can be encompassed, not exluding (?) the ten Powers of a Perfect One (##96ff.) [and the four] Intrepidities (##99-102), which are kinds of merit. 414. (2) Now when ignorance is a condition, by immediate-proximity-conditionality, for determinations, and when there is the cognizance [called] "arisen" immediately proximate to that cognizance wherewith the ignorance was co-arisen, then the previous cognizance is a condition, by cause-conditionality, for the subsequent cognizance. Hence, ignorance being in virtue of that previous cognizance the cause of arising [of the subsequent], no knowledge arises [with the latter] because it has no opportunity made for it. Since its element of diligence is drenched by ignorance, hence the perversions arise, [taking it] that there is beauty in the ugly, that there is pleasure in the painful, [etc.]. 415. Herein, the determinations that arise are choice in one affected by lust, by hate, and by delusion, [respectively] through obsession (#410) by lust, throught obsession by hate, or through obsession by delusion. The Perversion of View is demonstrable in the demonstration of the [four] grounds [for perversion (see ##479ff.)]. In as much as one with perverted cognizance cognizes, this is the Perversion of Cognizance. In as much as perverted perception apprehends, this is the Perversion of Perception. And in as much as the perverted view insists, this is the Perversion of View (cf. #483). 416. [107] Then the eight Wrongnesses increase, and in the unreasoned attention the three Unprofitable [Roots] make wrong knowledge and wrong deliverance (?) arise. In this way and no other (?) do unprofitable determinations come successively (?) to maturity and abundance. And being mainly unpenetrated, they are determinations that bring renewal of being. 417. So that is how ignorance is a condition for determinations (1) by conditionality-through-conascence and (2) by conditionality-through-immediate-proximity (#407). 418. (3) How is ignorance a condition for determinations in the mood of drenching (#407)? That ignorance drenches, extends through, those determinations: just as when a waterlily, or a lotus, is growing in water, and, being drenched and extended through with cool water, it reaches maturity, growth, and abundance, so too is ignorance a condition for determinations in the sense of drenching. 419. (4) How is ignorance a condition for determinations in the sense of standing-point (#407)? Those determinations reach maturity, gorwth, and abundance in dependence on ignorance: just as a waterlily, or a lotus, reaches maturity, growth, and abundance in dependence on earth by its having earth for its standing-point, [so too] these determinations reach maturity, growth, and abundance in dependence on ignorance by their having ignorance for their standing-point. That is how ignorance is a condition for determinations in the sense of standing-point. 420. Again, being is generated in relinking by the ripening of action that was accompanied by lust. It is when that is firmly (?) insisted upon through lack of knowledge of action [and its ripening] that [determinations] are called (see #416). In this way too there are determinations with ignorance as condition. 421. [108] Again, among the five [kinds of persons, namely] (1) those who are Initiate persons, (2) those who have entered upon the non-percipient attainment, (3) those seeking to be (?) and inside the egg (?), (4) those who are moisture-born, or (5) any others not yet come to be: those (#78) so what do their determinations have for their condition? They (1) still have previously made determinations and assuming unabolished in their cognizance; as long as the unripened ripening is uneradicated through the condition [for its ripening] being unsevered they still have a destination. In this way too there are determinations with ignorance as condition (cf.#915). 422. Again, those [persons] [#421): (2) may have neither that assuming nor those determinations, yet their seven underlying tendencies are still uneradicated and unsevered, and (#78): with consciousness as condition, name-and-form; ... (cf.#915). In this way too there are determinations with ignorance as condition. 423. Again, those [persons] (#421): (3)-(5) whatever kind of action leads to setting up, it is all determinatively acted through ignorance and stuck to by craving, and also it is owing to lack of knowledge that they do not know the disappointment therein. That same [action] is (cf. A.i,224), that same craving is the [for the seed's growth], and that same ignorance is the (cf.##916ff.). In this way too there can be said to be determinations with ignorance as condition. So ignorance is a condition for determinations in these moods. 424. Herein, ignorance's cause is [prior] ignorance [and] unreasoned attention is its condition. Where there is non-interruption this is continuity there; the fruit is generation; the relinking (#420) is renewal of being; obsession is the sense of non-eradication is underlying tendency. 425. [109} Just as, when a cloak, or a sheet, is in the presses and they are screwed down [by] two people, or [by] one strong [man], it would not, however, get dry in the presses, since the moist water-element still lurking there cannot be dried out without the heat-element's coming; if it were put again in th eopen [outside the presses] it would mostly keep moist with the seeping [of the remaining moisture]; for it canot come to be completely dried out without the fire-elements's coming; - so too, although attainment by concentration has Acme of Being for its ultimate, still it does not conduce to the eradication of the formless. For those [who attain that] rely on [it], are in touch with [it], and through craving [for it] they do not come to abandonment of craving. 426. Herein, that non-eradication is the underlying tendency (#410) to ignorance, and that is an impediment for cognizance. That [in turn becomes] an obsession (#410) as the inability of [such impeded] cognizance to penetrate how things are. That is the taint of ignorance, which becomes consciousness-as-seed (#423). What is a seed is a cause if not severed. When unsevered, it causes relinking. When relinking, it does not come to eradication. The non-eradication binds cognizance down. One whose cognizance is bound down does not understand how things are. 427. So this consciousness [as seed (?)] has the meaning of being affected by taints, the meaning of cause, the meaning of non-interruption, the meaning of non-stopping, the meaning of fruit, the meaning of relinking, the meaning of renewal of being, the meaning of non-eradication, the meaning of underlying tendency, the meaning of manifest obsession, the meaning of non-penetration. At this point the field of ignorance has been demonstrated. This is called the Mode of Conveying Requisites. 58771 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? egberdina Hi all, On 02/05/06, buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > Gooodness! So sorry to hear that. My thoughts will be with her for a > speedy recovery. > > Metta, > James Thank you all very much for your kind words of support. Vicki did also appreciate them very much. The good news is, she's home again and looking good! Thanks again -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58772 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 2:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta egberdina Hi Tep, But, I must admit, the word "virtue" in the Vism. is so broad that it > contradicts with the seven chariots model of Visuddhi, which defines > sequential linking without overlapping or looping (non-linear). So, > your cut-off condition does not agree with Ven. Buddhaghosa's thesis. > > "Through the path of Arahantship in the case of all defilements, (a) > abandoning is virtue, (b) abstention is virtue, (c) volition is > virtue, (d) restraint is virtue, (e) transgression is virtue." [Vism > I, 140] > > If virtue in the Arahant is different than the Sotapanna's, then there > is no cut-off point! So the question is: whom should we believe, Ven. > Punna Mantaniputta or Ven. Buddhaghosa? However, I should note that > the many definitions of virtue in the Vism actually came from the > Patisambhidamagga (Ven. Sariputta's discourse). So it is even more > confusing because the two arahants Sariputta and Punna both agreed > upon the Seven Chariots idea [see MN 24]. Yes, I see the dilemma of which you speak. But of course that dilemma is a consequence of a view that every statement from a very large collection of selected books is uniform in meaning and intent. I am not burdened by that view. What is real is different to what is said about it. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58773 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your comments. In my addressing your comments, please don't feel that I am addressing you, I am talking about the views contained in them, and they are held by many. > > Hi Herman > > Ineteresting questions. As usual, I won't think about them too > ahrd butwill just write what comess off the top of my head, which is > closest to theunderstanding taht is available due to condtions. Sure, that's fine. I see references to conditionality in two ways. They are either 1] useful reminders of anatta to someone who is usefully reminded by that or 2] tautologies (I am sick because of sickness) Reference 1 is a statement of knowledge Reference 2 is a statement of ignorance (it contains no information) Your line could also be read as "As usual, I won't think about them too ahrd butwill just write what comess off the top of my head, which is closest to theunderstanding taht is available due to me not thinking about them too ahrd butwill just writing what comess off the top of my head, which is closest to theunderstanding taht is available." Again, I am not having a go at you here, just the view expressed. The thing that can change the meaning of the sentence is "I won't think". This is a matter of intention. Now if all intention is entirely determined (entirely conditioned by the past), then the universe is a tautology. Which leads to my next point below. > > > > (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) > > > > > > We cannot force the arising of mindfulness, > > > Forst of all let me add that it seems quite clear in the Buddha's > second sutta, the anatta sutta, that we cannot have factors arising > as we'd like them to be - if we could, there would be no suffering. > (paraphrase.) > > Yes, this is a good reminder about anatta. But if it were not possible to go beyond suffering then anything the Buddha said is also a tautology. If his statements cannot make a difference to how the world unfolds, then whoever transcends suffering was always going that way, and those wallowing in suffering for the rest of eternity were also destined for that. So, is the Buddha saying that what will happen will happen? > > > > > Is that because not all the conditions that give rise to > mindfulness can be > > known, > > > > or because conditionality has randomness in it ie given the same > conditions > > the results may not be the same > > Hmm. Nope ,no understanding available on these questions. (Not > that they aren't great questions, I just don't know the answer > without pressing my mind on to them, so I'll stop.) I'd stick with > the anatta sutta Fair enough. From time to time what I have said may pop into your awareness, and there may be an inclination to consider it some more. But if the outcome of that consideration is predetermined then whether you consider or not is irrelevant. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58774 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are concepts impermanent? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/2/06 5:48:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > The good news is, she's home again and looking > good! > ====================== Wonderful! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58775 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Defining 'Mental Phenomena' egberdina Hi Sarah and Howard, > > As for Herman's interesting points on this topic, I think your comments > were pretty much on target. Hearing depends on ear-sense, even when the > sound is distorted or re-oriented/shielded etc. Recollections or dreams of > sounds can seem just as real as sounds depending on ear-sense of course. > As for tinnitis, I'll pass for now, but would suggest it also depends on > ear-sense. Thanks for the feedback. Where would nimitta be classified in the scheme of things? Nama, rupa, neither? -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58776 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:44pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Kamma as Taught by the Buddha [re-sent] indriyabala Hi, Jon - Lately you did not write as much as you used to. It is good that we keep our Dhamma discussion going (like the energized bunny). >Jon: >Personally I find that going through the process of expressing my views in writing, and then having them questioned by others, makes for a lot of useful consideration of the teachings. And of course I learn a lot from the views expressed by others, too. Tep: That is a very general declaration that is 100% harmless. .................. >Jon: >A recent post of Andrew's referred to the five 'helpers' of right view mentioned in AN V, 25. These are: - virtue - wide learning - discussion (of what was learned) - tranquillity - insight >Discussion of what has been heard and understood is a condition for even better understanding. And of course that better understanding in turn supports virtue and wider learning, and helps one appreciate even more the value of discussion. So the factors are all mutually supportive (Howard's 'spiral process'). Tep: The order that I see in AN V.25 is : virtue comes first, and tranquillity comes before insight. Bhikkhu Bodhi also seems to disagree with your idea above. "The Buddhist training unfolds in the three stages of morality, concentration and wisdom, each the foundation for the other: purified moral conduct facilitates the attainment of purified concentration, and the concentrated mind facilitates the attainment of liberating wisdom. The basis of the entire Buddhist training is thus purified conduct, and firm adherence to the code of training rules one has undertaken ..." ["The Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_23.html ......................... > >Tep: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. when concentration (the 8th > >path factor) is well developed (with the other matured seven path > >factors as support), then right knowledge(vijja) arises? > >"In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. ...In one of right concentration, right knowledge >...In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed >with eight factors, and the arahant with ten." - see MN 117. > >Jon: >It seems that the 2 additional factors mentioned here in MN 117 are factors that arise after the magga citta of the arahant (only). A footnote in the Bh Bodhi translation of this sutta at p. 1324 MLDB reads: "The additional two factors possessed by the arahant are right knowledge, which can be identified with his reviewing knowledge that he has destroyed all the defilements, and right deliverance, which can be identified with his experience of liberation from all defilements." Tep: I don't think you have yet responded to my question above ( isn't it the other way around ...) .............................. >Jon: >In the sutta, the section which your passage is taken and the preceding 5 sections all begin with the words (Bh Bodhi transl): "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first?" Tep: True, MN 117 says that right view comes first (as mundane right view). But my question was not about right view; it was about right knowledge. The sutta makes it very clear that right knowledge (vijja, it is opposite to avijja) comes after right concentration. I have no problem with Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, by the way. {:>) .......................... Best wishes, Tep, your dhamma friend =================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > indriyabala wrote: > > >Hi, Jon (and all)- > > (snipped) > > > >Tep: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. when concentration (the 8th > >path factor) is well developed (with the other matured seven path > >factors as support), then right knowledge(vijja) arises? > > > >"In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right > >resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right > >action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right > >livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right > >mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In > >one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right > >knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed > >with eight factors, and the arahant with ten." - see MN 117. > > > > > > It seems that the 2 additional factors mentioned here in MN 117 are > factors that arise after the magga citta of the arahant (only). A > footnote in the Bh Bodhi translation of this sutta at p. 1324 MLDB reads: > "The additional two factors possessed by the arahant are right > knowledge, which can be identified with his reviewing knowledge that he > has destroyed all the defilements, and right deliverance, which can be > identified with his experience of liberation from all defilements." > > In the sutta, the section which your passage is taken and the preceding > 5 sections all begin with the words (Bh Bodhi transl): "Therein, > bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first?" > > This is a reference to panna of the NEP, I believe. > (snipped) 58777 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:48pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) philofillet Hi Nina > N: But still a level of sati. Right remembrance of dhamma is a proximate > cause for satipa.t.thaana. Ph: Good to know. > Instead of straycats I have new neighbours, almost as noisy as the former > ones. Difficult to be aware of just sound. Ph: Sometimes it happens - but not by trying to be aware. That is just lobha, and the Buddha's teaching is about detachment, not attachment. This morning I listened to the > Thai, of Kh Sujin about dosa and that this characteristic also can be known. > It is always good to have reminders like that. But if we can follow up > again... that we do not have for the wishing. Ph: Right. From what I understand, satipatthana, when it arises, arises in a very natural way. Usually when there is seeing, or hearing, thinking follows immediately. But there can be a moment of satipatthana instead, which falls away immediately. Nothing spectactular or dramatic, nothing to be pursued by cittas rooted in lobha. But still very important, conditioning more moments of satipatthana. Phil 58778 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) philofillet Hi Herman > Thanks for your comments. In my addressing your comments, please don't feel > that I am addressing you, I am talking about the views contained in them, > and they are held by many. Great. I hope the things I write off the top of my head can be fodder for discussion for others. Like others, you like to think a lot harder about things than I do, and to be honest I won't even try to wrap my head around what you write, but I know others will. That's cool. We all have different conditions at work. Glad to hear Vicki is at home and feeling better. Phil 58779 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:52pm Subject: Channa's parinibbana egberdina Hi all, Some considerations about MN144. (I am not depressed, by the way :-)) Channa, deadly ill, had no misconceptions about self. And there was the knowledge that what remains is the body reacting to life itself, unbearably so in his case. And there was the knowledge that taking a knife to himself would be the end of that pain and that life. Channa took his life, without wanting it replaced with another. He did so faultlessly. It seems from this that knowledge of undesirability, wanting things to be different, has no necessary connection with self-view, and that intentional action in accordance with what is known in an effort to reach a goal can be faultless. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58780 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 3:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) philofillet Hi again >We all > have different conditions at work. I guess I should have said "different accumulations" - the paccayas that are at work are the same for everyone, I guess. Phil 58781 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Do mind objects have an intrinsic nature? lbidd2 Hi Nina, I don't understand your comment. The quote you gave doesn't seem to relate to the issue of whether we can say javana consciousness is the object of registration consciousness. Larry ------------------ L: "A desirable rupa is said to be the object of a kusala vipaka citta but a desirable desire is the object of an akusala vipaka registration citta. Here I believe I am going against convention in saying javana is the object of registration rather than saying the object of citta process is the object of registration. -------- N: the Pa.t.thaana (Condiitonal Relations): Akusala can condition akusala citta by way of object-predominance-condition. We read in the "Paììhåna'',in the same section,§415: Œ(One)esteems, enjoys and delights in lust. Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arises wrong views. (One)esteems, enjoys and delights in wrong views. Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arise wrong views.> It is not object of registration vipaakacitta, but object of akusala citta rooted in lobha, arising in a following process. Nina. 58782 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) egberdina Hi Phil, I'm not staklking you, honest :-) > > Ph: Right. From what I understand, satipatthana, when it arises, > arises in a very natural way. Usually when there is seeing, or hearing, > thinking follows immediately. But there can? be a moment of satipatthana > instead, which falls away immediately. Nothing spectactular or > dramatic, nothing to be pursued by cittas rooted in lobha. But still > very important, conditioning more moments of satipatthana. I have highlit one word above. If satipatthana is a random event, then, I guess we'll all just sit and wait for the next lottery to be drawn. But if it arises due to conditions and those conditions are knowable, and there is no knowledge of them, then the statement that it can arise is a statement of ignorance and suffering. If a doctor told Vicki "you are ill, but you can get better", that is not saying anything. If he told her "you are ill, because of this and that, and this is what we do about it" and it works out that way, then s/he is one who knows. The Buddha is one who knows, but we don't come to him until we are aware of suffering. And we suffer because we are ignorant of conditions. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58783 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation ... Hugo Who? indriyabala Hi Howard and Eric - Is (the big 'E') Eric's other name "Hugo" ? Or was it a typo? Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Hugo - > > In a message dated 5/1/06 1:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ericlonline@... writes: > > > BTW Have you ever tried walking > > meditation with your eyes closed? > > This helps to keep samadhi fostered > > between sits. It takes a bit of > > practice...be careful!! > > > ==================== > ;-)) No, I keep the eyes reduced to slits, and I don't "look" at > anything, but I don't close them either! > > With metta, > Howard 58784 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta indriyabala Hi Herman (and any interested members) - I think I've found an answer to the "Dilemma", and would like to ask you to look at it (see the end of this message). > >Tep: > But, I must admit, the word "virtue" in the Vism. is so broad that > > it contradicts with the seven chariots model of Visuddhi, > >which defines sequential linking without overlapping or looping > >(non-linear). So, your cut-off condition does not agree > > with Ven. Buddhaghosa's thesis. > > > > "Through the path of Arahantship in the case of all defilements, > >(a)abandoning is virtue, (b) abstention is virtue, (c) volition is virtue, (d) restraint is virtue, (e) transgression is virtue." [Vism > > I, 140] > > > > If virtue in the Arahant is different than the Sotapanna's, > > then there is no cut-off point! So the question is: > >whom should we believe, Ven. Punna Mantaniputta or Ven. > > Buddhaghosa? However, I should note that > > the many definitions of virtue in the Vism actually came from the > > Patisambhidamagga (Ven. Sariputta's discourse). So it is even more > > confusing because the two arahants Sariputta and Punna both agreed > > upon the Seven Chariots idea [see MN 24]. > Herman: > Yes, I see the dilemma of which you speak. But of course that dilemma is a consequence of a view that every statement from a very large collection of selected books is uniform in meaning and intent. I am not burdened by that view. What is real is different to what is said about it. > ................ Tep: The only interpretation that unites the Seven Charots and the Patisambhidamagga (quoted in Vism I, 140) is the following. After the purification of virtues stage (first chariot), the four characteristics of the purified virtue (i.e. a - d above : abandoning, abstention, volition, restraint, transgression) are manifest in all the remaining 6 stages of purification. Yours truly, Tep ========= 58785 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Corollary of Anatta egberdina Hi Tep, > Tep: The only interpretation that unites the Seven Charots and the > Patisambhidamagga (quoted in Vism I, 140) is the following. > After the purification of virtues stage (first chariot), the four > characteristics of the purified virtue (i.e. a - d above : abandoning, > abstention, volition, restraint, transgression) are manifest in all > the remaining 6 stages of purification. My sincere thanks to you for asking me to consider what you put forward. But wouldn't the matter be entirely academic? If we are concerned with how we are addressed in emails, that would surely identify where we are in the relay, wouldn't it ? Best not to get ahead of ourselves, I reckon . :-) -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58786 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 2, 2006 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Brief Remarks on Standing Meditation ... Hugo Who? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and somebody! ;-) In a message dated 5/2/06 7:16:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard and Eric - > > Is (the big 'E') Eric's other name "Hugo" ? Or was it a typo? > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ======================== My apologies, Eric! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 58787 From: "Paul Grabianowski" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Descartes! paulgrabiano... Hi Sarah, Thanks for the tip. I will check it out soon and let you know if I find anything interesting there. paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Descartes! > Hi Paul, > > I'm enjoying your posts including the 'Metta' story. [Btw, for others, > K.Sujin's book 'Metta' can be found in the 'Files' section of DSG]. > > You were asking here about the heart-base: > > --- Paul Grabianowski wrote: > >> Buddhism teaches something quite different from Descartes, I think. In >> Buddhism mind and matter are in a constant and vital relationship to one >> >> another. Mind states arise in dependence upon the five senses bases and >> the >> heart base (I've always taken this as meaning the brain and other >> components >> of the nervous system in the body, but I wonder if anyone else might >> know >> more about this?) which in turn arise in dependence upon the attributes >> of >> matter (rupa). > .... > S: Please see posts under 'Heart-base (Haddaya-vatthu) in 'Useful Posts' > (in files section). I think you'll find them interesting and informative. > Come back with any questions (or disagreements!). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 58788 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 6:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the monk's siila. Skillful Side-stepping ? indriyabala Hi Sarah - Thank you for the concern, I am too old to get upset! > S: I understand this kind of frustration. I think dhamma discussions can often be like this. Often we don't get the kind of responses we expect or would like. Scott mentioned this recently, I think. > Tep: As a matter of fact, I wasn't really frustrated at all. I only think that side-stepping a straightforward question is unacceptable in Dhamma discussion -- even when there is no real intention. It is importance to speak up, and give an opportunity for others to explain. ........... > S: I was also reminded of this today as I listened to a track from our India discussions with K.Sujin. In my mind, I've dedicated this particular track to you, because I'm raising issues and asking questions on the Kundaliya Sutta and segments from the Patisambhidamagga which you had raised before our trip. Tep: I am glad to know that. Thank you many times for seeing some value in my comments (but you might be one of a few members here who understand and appreciate this important sutta). Kundaliya Sutta is in the special SN section on Satipatthana (along with several other great suttas) and its message is very consistent with the whole group and also with the other suttas on bojjhanga and anapanasati. That's why I believe its message wholeheartedly ........... >S: The responses I was given are subtle (for me) and it often takes > me time to ponder over the unexpected side dish I'm given:-) >Sometimes, I only appreciate much later that it was in fact a >healthier dish than the one I'd ordered, but others may have > different reactions. > Tep: It is always amazing to me how adaptive and open-minded you have been -- one in 10,000 people, I guess. I am sorry for not serving the main dish you had ordered; you got a healthy and tasty pudding instead. The proof of an excellent pudding is in its taste, they say. If it tastes good, then it doesn't matter who the (bad)waiter is. ................ > S: Even now, I still find the points you have raised (and which I in turn have discussed at length) very difficult. In some regards, I think your comments on the Kundaliya about sila as basis and condition for satipatthana are correct. When it's kusala, there's no akusala and it can be a condition for higher kinds of kusala then or in future. If someone doesn't appreciate basic sila (not killing etc), it seems unlikely they'll appreciate the real understanding of dhammas and good intentions and acts do accumulate. We don't know when and how they will bring their own good results and be a basis/support for satipatthana to develop in future. Tep: Precisely! There is more about the sutta insight (not just interpretation) that I have gained; it is summarized in the message # 58655. Have you got a chance to read it yet? .............. > S: > There are many aspects here I'm still not clear on. Adhi sila or purification of sila can only be developed with wisdom and any dhammas, including moments of bad conduct, can be known for what they are too. > Furthermore, moments of trying to have good sila, wanting to be a good person and other acts rooted in attachment shouldn't be mistaken for kusala sila, otherwise there won't be any support at all. > Tep: You are talking about a complicated process. We won't end up with akusala (because of lobha and atta-ditthi) if we practice with the right view about kusala/akusala in mind. ["When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." MN 9] Let me separate the process into three parts: 1) The training of mindfulness through restraining the senses to prevent a bad conduct (bodily, or verbal, or mental) from occuring. This is known as sensing faculty restraint. 2) The further training of mindfulness through replacing a bad conduct by the opposite, until all three conducts are good. This training fullfils the four foundation of mindfulness. 3) The further practice of mindfulness by vipassana bhavana according to the Satipatthana Sutta. This training brings about the right mindfulness. I believe adhisila sikkha(training in heightened virtue) is best defined as follows: "And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue." [AN III.88 Sikkha Sutta] My understanding of "seeing danger in the slightest fault" is that it is the same as achieving three good conducts in all occasions. Thus, the above practices #1 and #2 according to the Kundliya Sutta plus the monk's vinaya satisfies the requirement of 'adhisila'. Please feel free to disagree. ........................ > We will very soon be uploading these recordings and you'd be doing me a favour if you'd listen to the segment I have in mind. You may be able to help me further. ... You've been making very solid (yes, very 'core') contributions for the last few months. Tep: Sure, Sarah. I'll be more than happy to work with you. And I hope to be more agreeable and not serving anymore "side dishes" that you don't want. :-) ......................... > S: Everyone needs a break from time to time (even if just for a weekend),but I really hope it's not much longer than that:). > > Tep, we've been busy this weekend with birthdays, beach outings and final editing of the recordings (it's been a huge task), but I do have several of your posts ear-marked for responding to this week. So, I would be very disappointed if you weren't around to read them:). I promise to look at any suttas you've gone to the trouble to present very carefully as well. > ... Please hang in there! Please take your time, no hurry. I'll be around, don't worry about me turning into another drama queen (or something like that)! [We already have a few.] Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, (RobK at end), > > This has caught my attention, so I hope you won't mind me butting in. I > haven't read the messages after it yet, so please bear with me. > > --- indriyabala wrote: > (to Nina) > > > As my concluding remark: thank you again for finding time to reply to > > most of my emails last week. Although we have not been successful in > > getting our points across, when all things are considered it has not > > been totally disappointing. [More like ordering a main dish but ending > > up intead with a side dish (that I did not order), however it was much > > better than leaving the restaurant with an empty stomach.] > ..... (snipped) 58789 From: "Cara Tasher" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 8:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] question from new member caravoce7 Sorry-My question is- Is there a name for this prayer? It was translated from the original PALI language, and then titled "Old Buddhist Prayer" Is there a part of the practice that this prayer is specifically in? Visuddhimagga perhaps? THANKS! Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Life's most urgent question is: what are you doing for others? (Martin Luther King) -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 2:50 AM ,...> S: My best guess is that this is someone's free translation/interpretation of a couple of the stanzas of the Metta Discourse, Khuddakapatha (Minor Readings), IX. This is the translation of the lines I have in mind, translated by Nanamoli in the above text: <...> 58790 From: "Cara Tasher" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 8:46am Subject: RE: [dsg] question from new member caravoce7 Do you think this is the same sutta? · Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. · Life's most urgent question is: what are you doing for others? (Martin Luther King) -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... <...> ========================== Please see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#khp-9. This is a beautiful sutta. For you convenience, I copy it below. With metta, Howard ____________________ 9. Karaniya Metta Sutta — Loving-Kindness [This sutta also appears at Sn I.8. Alternate translations: Buddharakkhita | Amaravati | Piyadassi | Thanissaro.] <...> 58791 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) egberdina Hi Phil, On 03/05/06, Phil wrote: > > Hi again > > >We all > > have different conditions at work. > > I guess I should have said "different accumulations" - the paccayas > that are at work are the same for everyone, I guess. Yes, that is a very useful distinction to make. Someone of my persuasion would then ask, if everything is subject to the same paccayas, how is it that differences exist? -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58792 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 8:28pm Subject: Reflection on hospital visits egberdina Hi all, With Vick being in hospital for a week you get to see things you don't see much in public. During the hospital stay, there were two patients with inoperable cancer opposite Vicki. One a lady in her sixties with an inoperable brain tumour. She was in hospital to have her pain management fine tuned, and then she would go home to die. She was very cheerful, and accepting of her lot. She was pleased that her children had all grown up. She was given copious amounts of morphine, and didn't seem in any physical distress. The other lady was much younger, as young as 25 maybe. She couldn't keep any food down. She was friendly in conversation with others, but very angry, sometimes seething, and resentful about her fate. She had a young child, a husband, and a 2 kg tumour in her abdominal cavity. Apart from her mental distress about leaving a young child motherless, she was also in physical pain. It occured to me, with the story of Channa (MN144) in mind, that the teachings of the Buddha can help alleviate and prevent mental suffering, but physical pain must be endured. On the other hand, those who have studied the body and know how it works can prescribe treatment for physical pain, but mental pain must be endured. There is need for relief of both mental and bodily suffering, methinks. -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58793 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Labelling" in satipatthaana egberdina Hi Scott, Welcome aboard. > > I was giving up on the needless mind/body debate. I was finding > things to be often wrong minded. Not all, mind you, for instance > basic psychodynamics seem useful, and there does seem an orderly way > in which the mind works (conventionally speaking you understand). Now > I couldn't care less how one defines self within psychoanalysis. The > debates on that seem fruitless, as they no doubt are in the end. All > that to reiterate: point well-taken. I was very interested to read all your comments. I am only a layman as far as Buddhism or psychiatry are concerned, but I see quite a bit of overlap between some Freudian and Buddhist notions. Is that the sort of thing you had in mind by basic psychodynamics? -- Kind Regards Herman There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 58794 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 2, 2006 9:23pm Subject: Vism.XVII,76 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 76. Now they say in this context that 'the ability of states to produce [their fruit] is not diminished, but the influence of meditative development prevents states from arising in proximity'. But that only establishes that there is no proximity of time; and we also say the same, namely, that there is no proximity of time there owing to the influence of development. But since there is no proximity of time, the state of contiguity condition is therefore impossible [according to them] since their belief is that the contiguity condition depends on proximity of time (cf. MA.ii,363). Instead of adopting any such misinterpretation, the difference should be treated as residing in the letter only, not in the meaning. How? There is no interval (antara) between them, thus they are proximate (anantara); they are quite without interval because [even the distinction of] co-presence is lacking, thus they are contiguous (samantara).14 ------------------- Note 14. 'The state of 'proximity condition' is the ability to cause arising proximately (without interval) because there is no interval between the cessation of the preceding and the arising of the subsequent. The state of 'contiguity condition' is the ability to cause arising by being quite proximate (without interval) through approaching, as it were, identity with itself owing to absence of any distinction that "This is below, above, or around that", which is because of lack of any such co-presence as in the case of the [components of the] material groups, and because of lack of any co-positionality of the condition and the conditionally arisen. And [in general], because of the uninterestedness of [all] states (dhamma), when a given [state] has ceased, or is present, in a given mode, and [other] states (dhamma) come to be possessed of that particular mode, it is that [state's] mode that must be regarded as what is called "ability to cause arising" ' (Pm. 586). *********************** 76. yampi tattha vadanti ``dhammaana.m samu.t.thaapanasamatthataa na parihaayati, bhaavanaabalena pana vaaritattaa dhammaa samanantaraa nuppajjantii''ti, tampi kaalaanantarataaya abhaavameva saadheti. bhaavanaabalena hi tattha kaalaanantarataa natthiiti, mayampi etadeva vadaama. yasmaa ca kaalaanantarataa natthi, tasmaa samanantarapaccayataa na yujjati. kaalaanantarataaya hi tesa.m samanantarapaccayo hotiiti laddhi. tasmaa abhinivesa.m akatvaa bya~njanamattatovettha naanaakara.na.m paccetabba.m, na atthato. katha.m, natthi etesa.m antaranti hi anantaraa. sa.n.thaanaabhaavato su.t.thu anantaraati samanantaraa. 58795 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 9:19pm Subject: The 4 Noble Truths ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: These Four Noble Truths are the very Core of Buddhism... 1: This is Suffering! Suffering is of three kinds: a: Obvious suffering, which is any painful bodily feeling & any miserable mental feeling. b: Suffering due to change includes also pleasant feeling as this indeed becomes quite disappointing, when it, as it always do, changes, fades, goes away and finally vanishes. c: Suffering due to construction is all that is conditioned and which thus later falls apart. This also includes any object which induces a neutral neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. This first Noble Truth of Suffering have to be fully understood in all aspects... 2: This Craving is the Cause of Suffering! a: Craving for sensing various things. (Nice form, sound, smell, taste, touch, & mental state.) b: Craving for becoming of various states. (ex: May I become rich, forever young, famous!) c: Craving for non-becoming of various states. (ex: May I not die, not become sick & old!) This Second Noble Truth on the Cause of Suffering have to be overcome & eliminated... 3: Absence of Craving is the End of Suffering! a: Not craving any sensing as these fleeting stimuli are seen as gross & vanishing anyway ... b: Not craving for any form of becoming as all states - even divine - change & decay anyway... c: Not craving any non-becoming, but accepting what have to come (ex: ageing, sickness, death).... This Third Noble Truth on the End of Suffering have to be made real & ever present... 4: The Noble 8-Fold Way is the Method to End Suffering! Which Noble Eight-fold Way has to be developed in order to end all suffering? Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) This Fourth Noble Truth on the Way to End Suffering has to be initiated and fully completed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 58796 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 10:40pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) philofillet Hi Herman I have a few minutes... > If satipatthana is a random event, then, I guess we'll all just sit and wait > for the next lottery to be drawn. But if it arises due to conditions and > those conditions are knowable, and there is no knowledge of them, then the > statement that it can arise is a statement of ignorance and suffering. Hmmm. I think the conditions are knowable. We listen, reflect on the Buddha's teaching, sit and watch if that is a natural thing for one to do. (Sometimes in the morning, when I am looking at some Dhamma book in the morning, I put down the book and sit and watch what's going on through the six doors, to some extent. It happens. I don't know if it's "meditating" or not, but I guess it is and it feels natural at such times because it has long been my way in the morning to reflect on things.) We listen, discuss, listen some more, sit and watch, walk, go to work, eat, drink, poop, whatever. The conditions for sati are intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teaching and sense door experience, right? If sati happens, it happens. That's the way I see it. Not really a lottery, per se, because by staying open to the Buddha's teaching we are doing something very nice to the odds, especially when we don't stop to think about how we are doing something very nice to the odds, if you know what I mean. I don't know if that addresses what you wrote at all, but I will plough on. > > If a doctor told Vicki "you are ill, but you can get better", that is not > saying anything. If he told her "you are ill, because of this and that, and > this is what we do about it" and it works out that way, then s/he is one who > knows. The Buddha is one who knows, but we don't come to him until we are > aware of suffering. And we suffer because we are ignorant of conditions. "We don't come to him until we are aware of suffering." Yes, that seems to be the way it works. Unfortunate that, because I think we tend to come in too much need of a solution, with too much fear, and clinging to what we can have in this one lifetime. Not quite like born-again Christians come to the Lord Jesus seeking salvation, but we are still seeking salvation more than we think. I think people who are born Buddhists and start off as children doing this and that related to Dhamma because it is the natural thing for their family to do might be at an advantage because they slide into it more naturally. We westerners who come to Buddhism later (usually) are usually propelled by circumstances to seek solutions, and by seeking solutions things get botched up. Possibly. I don't know if that's true, just off the top of my head. That is why I appreciate Acharn Sujin because her approach gets at piercing the pretty pink balloon of Dhamma lobha we carry around with us. Really get at anatta and detachment as soon as possible, really get at the ultiamte truth that there is no Phil and no Herman and no Vicky or Naomi, just paramattha dhammas. It's not a fuzzy warm sort of feeling that, but there is peace in it, somehow. And there is no reason to delay getting at it. Just a ramble there, Herman - probably completely off topic. Phil 58797 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 10:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 432- mindfulness/sati (n) philofillet Hi Herman > Yes, that is a very useful distinction to make. Someone of my persuasion > would then ask, if everything is subject to the same paccayas, how is it > that differences exist? Do you mean differences between people, or different life forms, something like that? From what I understand, the patisandha (sp?) citta, the rebirth citta is crucially important. People are born by different patisandha cittas that have a powerful impact on our life situations. To be human, we all have kusala roots, but some people have only adosa and alobha, and other have amoha as well. Something like that? Born in the animal realm? Sorry, amigo, you are missing a wholesome root or two. I don't know. It's an area I hardly think about because if I think about it in a logical way it might not make sense, and I don't want it not to make sense!! Phil 58798 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 2, 2006 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 434- mindfulness/sati (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) As we have seen, the Atthasåliní states that the proximate cause of mindfulness is firm remembrance (saññå) or the four applications of mindfulness (satipaììhåna). There can be mindfulness of the nåma or rúpa which appears because of firm remembrance of all we learnt from the teachings about nåma and rúpa. Listening is mentioned in the scriptures as a most important condition for the attainment of enlightenment, because when we listen time and again, there can be firm remembrance of the Dhamma. Mindfulness is different from remembrance, saññå. Saññå accompanies every citta; it recognizes the object and “marks” it, so that it can be recognized again. Mindfulness, sati, is not forgetful of what is wholesome. It arises with sobhana cittas. But when there is sati which is non-forgetful of dåna, síla, of the object of calm or, in the case of vipassanå, of the nåma and rúpa appearing at the present moment, there is also kusala saññå which remembers the object in the right way, in the wholesome way. ***** (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 58799 From: "Fabrizio Bartolomucci" Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:13pm Subject: Re:siila and satipa.t.thaana. fbartolom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" > The most difficult point that I've seen is your tactic of avoiding > direct answer to a straightforward question, or skillful invention of > a "new" concept that is confusing. Such "tactic" is effective only in > a warfare, but it certainly leads to confusion and lost of attention > in me. What the writer is a master in, by not stating which question he wants to be answered...