#60400 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >I suspect that this is going to come down to words. You ask; can we control >dhammas? Well, do actions have an influence on any dhammas? Do any dhammas >arise in predictable ways given certain actions? Are any of those >predictable ways able to be known? Is anything that is known able to be done >again in the way that it is known? Would that same action bring about those >same dhammas again? If the answers to those questions are yes, well, then it >would indicate that given certain conditions, certain dhammas arise. Does >that mean that certain dhammas can be controlled? I suspect it comes down to >words. > Yes, I think it probably comes down to words (or, to put that another way, we are probably talking about different things ;-)). All I am saying is that dhammas are subject to various conditions present and past (conditions that are for the most part beyond our knowledge anyway), and they arise before we know it. The fact that things appear to go the way we direct them to is not an observation concerning dhammas as such but is a statement concerning the conventional world. >I think it is an imperative for each person to discover for themselves the >extent to which the mind is a voluntary organ. I have previously referred to >the mind as a sphincter. If a child were to say to me "I poo my pants every >day, and this is how it must be", I could embark on a program of toilet >training with that child, and after a period of time, the child will poo in >the loo, and not its pants. > >Categorical denials from adults as to their inability to control their minds >are a bit more testing though. For one, adults can be stubbornly defiant of >any attempts to teach them anything. But of course, this only goes to >demonstrate that they are already very much in control of what is allowed >into the mind for consideration. > >I would certainly agree with you that there is the arising of unwanted >emotions, feelings and thoughts etc . But that does not have to translate >into the performing of any unwanted action. Sphincter control, again. And >the arising of the need for bowel control is of course only due to the fact >that we feed ourselves. It is no different with the mind. What is it that >we do all day long but feed that mind beast. And what goes in must come out. >I would suggest that the Buddha's toilet training program has very much to >do with limiting the mental intake, which has natural consequences as to >what tries to get out. > The idea that the arising of unwanted emotions, feelings and thoughts etc. does not have to translate into the performing of any unwanted action is a questionable one I think. You perhaps mean there is the potential for behavioural control, for example, by the development of samatha to the stage that the hindrances are suppressed. But any such suppression is not only difficult to attain, it is also difficult to maintain (can easily be lost). >In short, the givens of life and death do not have any fixed, determined >actions as a necessary consequence. It is upto each person to discover what >is a given, and what is not. The Buddha's suggestion, however, is that the >mind is entirely a voluntary organ. > In what sense do you see the mind as being an 'organ'? I don't think it is anywhere described as such in the texts. Jon #60401 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dying Moments - 6 and 7. nilovg Dear Han, op 12-06-2006 03:13 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: Han: Come to think of it, from this life to next life, it is only one citta away – from cuti citta to patisandhi citta. ------ N: This is helpful, it clarifies that it is just as natural as the citta at this moment that falls away and conditions the arising of the next citta. This momentary death of each citta was also mentioned by Gunaratna you quoted: I like what you wrote at the end of no 7: < In fact, I will benefit by doing meritorious deeds all throughout my life. Leaving aside aacinna kamma and aasanna kamma, by doing meritorious deeds I will have a strong faith (saddha) and joy (piti) and happiness (sukha); and I will be liked by humans and devas. > You said: We learnt from Kh Sujin not to expect anything. I know it is not easy to always apply this. When people do not react to a post that is written it does not mean that they did not read it. Many appreciate it but do not come to it to express this. Nina. #60402 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience. (&soccer) nilovg Dear Azita, op 12-06-2006 06:48 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: I remember a conversation in Gangtok, about patience and how we often mistake 'our' patience for kusala when it is just the opposite. A.Sujin was saying that sometimes it can be viriya cetasika that we take for me-being-patient. ------- N: Excellent reminder. How often we fool ourselves. I used to be oversensitive when others had denigrating remarks about Abhidhamma and now this is better. But I am thinking of my patience. Each akusala citta, also the citta rooted in lobha, means: impatience. Kh. Sujin explained that when we cling we are not patient. ------ A: Of course, only sati of the presently arising dhamma would know whether it was kusala or not. Otherwise, it is really only guesswork on our part. I imagine one has to be very truthful about ones intentions at times of 'patience'. Is it truly patience, Khanti, or are we fooling ourselves. For me, it feels like a long, long time before then is any knowing what the present moment consists of; seems like lots of thinking about this moment but no actually knowing it. ------ N: Lots of guesswork and thinking, I am glad you mention this. Patience with developing understanding. Looking forward to more posts from you! Nina. #60403 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Re: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 8. philofillet Hi Nina and all > 7. Mara's Prisoner > > He who has not abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, is called Mara's > prisoner, captured in Mara's snare, subject to the Evil One's will and > pleasure. > > But he who abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, is no longer Mara's > prisoner; he is freed from Mara's snare, no longer subject to the Evil One's > will and pleasure. Ph: This is one of those very sobering suttas, a la "Burning." Who has abandoned greed, hatred and delusion? Not us, of course. So we are all Mara's prisoners. There are moments of liberation, but how much unnecessary suffering is caused to those who prematurely believe themselves to be liberated only to discover otherwise. We shouldn't be comfortable with our akusala, but it is a mistake to fret about it - is is already gone. Phil #60404 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry matheesha333 Hi Howard, > > >> Kel: First I'll agree that a sotapanna cannot fall back. > > However, > > >>if after magga, phala will be invariably reached then what's the > > >>need for striving? Would it matter if it's right after or some > > time > > >>after if it's inevitable anyway? > > > > M: :) thats an important point. I believe that when a person has the > > level of insight a sotapanna magga has, he is not able to just stop > > practicing, because that would be a negation of everything he has > > understood. > > > > Levels of motivation to practice are determined by how bad you think > > the problem is. These people have real insight into the matter, into > > tilakkana and arn't going to stop. > > > ======================== > H: Ahh, that's interesting! So, in other words, once the stream-entry > path has been attained, i.e. once one is a (lesser) stream enterer, all the > requsite conditions, including understanding and motivation, are sufficiently in > place to guarantee the regularity and quality of continued practice needed for fr > uition of stream entry occur. I must say - that sounds very plausible and is > likely the case. In any case, should it even not be so ;-), it is a clever > solution. LOL! M: LOL! ;) > H: As I think of it, in fact, I believe you may have also hit upon the > reason, 'the mechanism," if you will, for the > only-so-many-more-lifetimes-until-full-enlightenment assertions the Buddha made with regard to the various noble > stages! At each stage, all conditions have been met, including the > understanding and motivation, to guarantee continued practice at the level and > correctness needed to guarantee the stated time constraints. Seeing what the mechanism > might be, even in terms as vague as this, is important, I think, for otherwise > the so-many-lifetimes statements can sound like magical facts to accept > blindly, and that is not the tenor of the Dhamma. M: Other possible mechanisms of the 'less than 7 lifetimes' rule: these people have less avijja, hence less bad kamma (a little bit more metaphysical though!). They will be 'directed' towards the path and teachings by this in successive lifetimes. The other one I can think of is that having yatabutanana means that that there is some undermining of the mechanism of rebirth, in that the understanding is that there is no self, phenomena are empty and so what is the point of repeated birth. Desire for renewed becomming and avijja being two main components of the rebirth process. It might be a combination of all these. :) Thanks for giving me an oppurtunity to speculate!! with metta Matheesha #60405 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 6/12/06 3:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > M: Other possible mechanisms of the 'less than 7 lifetimes' rule: > these people have less avijja, hence less bad kamma (a little bit > more metaphysical though!). They will be 'directed' towards the path > and teachings by this in successive lifetimes. The other one I can > think of is that having yatabutanana means that that there is some > undermining of the mechanism of rebirth, in that the understanding > is that there is no self, phenomena are empty and so what is the > point of repeated birth. Desire for renewed becomming and avijja > being two main components of the rebirth process. It might be a > combination of all these. :) ------------------------------------------ Howard: All good points! ---------------------------------------- > > Thanks for giving me an oppurtunity to speculate!! > --------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) You're welcome. Speculating is lots of fun! LOL! (And sometimes it's also useful! Mainly because another name for "good" speculating is "contemplating the Dhamma".) ==================== With metta, Howard #60406 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:24 pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- ..Why Wait if You Can Now? indriyabala Hi Jon, - Let's wrap up this thread today, please. >Jon: >I feel I am somehow missing the point of what you are saying. It might help if you could give an example of how abstaining from lying, killing, etc. is something that we can do now .... Tep: If we cannot abstain from telling a lie and killing we would have been in big troubles by now (perhaps in a jail?). Abstaining from lying, for example, is possible because one is aware before giving a speech that is not truthful, and he makes an effort to restrain himself from wrong verbal actions. To be aware before saying something bad is not possible for a person who has no sati, or no shame. Similarly, you won't hurt anyone (let alone killing) because you are normally aware of dosa when it arises, and make an effort to calm down and eliminate it. ........... >Jon: >(my difficulty is, I thought we had agreed that this kind of kusala can only arise when there is the inclination to do one of these acts in the first place) Tep: The inclination to do kusala "in the first place" is conditioned by shame and fear of wrongdoing [MN 39], and it is followed through by constantly arousing a desire(chanda) and persistence (viriya)[see DN 22]. How to condition kusala to arise is clearly explained in several suttas, for example: MN 53 and AN X.176 on kusala kammapatha. Once we've established the habit of doing, saying and thinking kusala, and abstaining from akusala, then it becomes the condition for the three good conducts to continue to arise again and again in the future. "Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be endowed with shame and fear of doing wrong.' ... Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be pure in our bodily actions, open and without a flaw ... Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be pure in verbal actions, open and without a flaw ... Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be pure in mental actions, open and without a flaw...[MN 39] ............................. "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. [MN 53] ............................ "Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. [DN 22] ............................ Tep: If akusala cannot be abstained from, and kusala cannot be developed and conditioned to arise at will such as sated in DN 22 above, the Buddha would not have taught us to abstain from bad conducts and develop the ten good conducts(kusalas) in AN X.176. "Now, Cunda, there are three ways in which one is made pure by bodily action, four ways in which one is made pure by verbal action, and three ways in which one is made pure by mental action. "And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action. ...[endquote AN X.176] .......................... Tep: Please study the rest of AN X.176 for the remaining seven kusalas. Then you will know the answer to your question. .......................... >Jon: >I agree that in the case of kindness and generosity there are plenty of opportunities that arise in a day, and as you say, why wait? But the fact remains that not much kindness or generosity actually arises. Yes, it is good to be reminded of the value of there being more kindness and generosity in our day, but can it be forced? or, should I say, is the forced version the real thing (is it actually kusala)? Tep: Generosity arises in the heart of a kind person because of a condition, e.g. listening to the news about huricane victims. I don't understand your "forced" kindness, or "forced" generosity. A kind person looks for opportunities to help! When you see someone in need of help and you immediately offer the needed help,that is not forced kindness. When a friend or a relative asks for money and you give it with a smile, out of kindness, that's not forced. For a stingy person who does not know or does not believe in giving, of course he will not give. A person who is aware of the benefits of siila is committed to self-restraint (indriya-samvara) all the time. He is heedful. He does not wait for siila to arise whenever it may arises. He maintains the ten kusala kammapatha in his heart all the time! If this is not the real kusala, then what is it? Generosity never arises in the mind of an uninstructed stingy person, who has no saddha in 'dana'. He doesn't believe in the kusala 'vipaka' of dana. Generosity and kindness can be developed by close association with (and seeing dana actions of) a generous person (an "admirable friend"), for example. "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, and for taking on skillful mental qualities -- steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. [AN IX.1] I consider the above reply as "my last words" on this suject of discussion. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > indriyabala wrote: > > >Hi Jon , - > > > >I am glad that finally you have reached the point that I agree with > >more than 50%. > > > > > > A rare occasion indeed! > > >What I still disagree is that, while you and I are still practicing #60407 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jwromeijn Hallo Ken O, Howard, Sarah, all I toke some days to study more on D.O., and had some family activities Ken (in #60361): "This is how I view it. It is undeniable that Buddha used concepts asa tool for tranmission of his teachings, but is also undeniable that Buddha used concepts to teach us about the paramtha dhamma. The real difference that it is only the paramatha dhamma that will make us develop the path. My personal reasons are as follows: Concepts cannot be directly experience. Because I think, one cannot directly experience a tree but can experience the hardness of a tree by touching it or colour of the tree. Likewise, paramathas are objects that can be directly experience for eg a pleasant feeling." Joop: What I know of Abhidhamma, a part of the paramattha dhammas can be experienced directly, not all (not all rupas); but generally spoken you are right. But how do we (or the composers of the Dhammasangani) know what is exactly the list of knowable paramattha dhamma? Ken (in #60353): "accumulations is a function of all cittas. Before the citta cease, it conditions the next citta to arise, that how accumulation cease and arise in each citta" Joop: Do I understand you well and is IN a citta, itself arising and falling away; something arising and falling away, that 'something' called 'accumulation' ? What exactly is a 'function'? A property, a dimension, or whatever? I don't understand the process such as you (and others like Sarah and Nina) are referring when talking about 'accumulations'. Ken: "what matters is that concepts are illusion and thus not conducive to development. We used names and concepts to understand paramathas but it must be understood that paramathas are not concepts." Joop: I agree with you, only the problem is: is "accumulations" and is "upadana" is concept or a paramatha: you have not given me a proof that they are paramatha; that's all. Howard, you ideas in #60353 was stuff for more contemplation, thanks H: " I think there is a sub-aggregate of cetasikas (more specifically, of sankharas) that consists of clingings (i.e., instances of of various kinds and degrees of upadana), and every one of these is an outgrowth of and, in fact, a kind of "hardened" version of, tanha (or dosa). I do think that every instance of clinging is a kind of "impulsive" mental activity that actually arises and is distinguishable from other mental actvities. While the *category* of upadana is concept, each instance of it actually occurs." J: I think you are right (even if this is not 100% according Abhidhamma-orthodoxy) because this way of reasoning works well to me. BTW Howard, you made so many short interesting remarks in the years I participate in DSG. Is all that short track work not a pity? Why don't you write a long text, even a book on this topics? You have stuff and ideas enough. Or have you already written one but keeped it secret for DSG (a serious question)? Metta Joop #60408 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Here is my more sedate and considered response to your good reply. Apologies again for trying to reply in the midst of domestic duties. N: "The lokuttara magga-cittas eradicate defilements and experience nibbaana. The cause of dukkha is tanhaa, craving or clinging. Nibbaana is the cessation of dukkha. It is contradictory if the lokuttara cittas would cling to nibbaana which is the end of all defilements. A person who does not know what nibbaana is may cling to an illusion, an idea he has of nibbaana." Yes, I see. Anatta again. The cittas, being devoid of self (as is the way of understanding these dhammas), experience Nibbaana - a reality having no "surface" or "aspect" subject to clinging. So not clinging to Nibbaana is a function of the "characteristic" of Nibbaana. A person, as opposed to lokuttara magga-citta, can cling but it is merely to an object of her own mind - the illusion of nibbaana; one concept interacting with another, as it were. N: "The texts states; after having emerged from jhaana...The jhaanacittas are absorbed in the meditation subject, they have no other experience. When someone has emerged from jhaana he can consider the jhaanafactors and which one he has to abandon in order to reach a higher stage, for example. Or, when he develops insight he can realize the jhaanafactors as non-self. He may understand that a concurrence of many condioning factors was necessary for the arising of jhaanacitta." This is helpful. It is only recently that I am learning about true jhaana, and the difficulty in its attainment. When the jhaanacittas are absorbed, with no other experience, this is pure absorption. Emerging from this, or might one say when the jhaanacittas subside, "someone" can begin to contemplate. Sincerely, Scott. #60410 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 6/12/06 6:07:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Howard, you ideas in #60353 was stuff for more contemplation, thanks > H: " I think there is a sub-aggregate of cetasikas (more > specifically, of sankharas) that consists of clingings (i.e., > instances of of various kinds and degrees of upadana), and every one > of these is an outgrowth of and, in fact, a kind of "hardened" > version of, tanha (or dosa). I do think that every instance of > clinging is a kind of "impulsive" mental activity that actually > arises and is distinguishable from other mental actvities. While the > *category* of upadana is concept, each instance of it actually > occurs." > > J: I think you are right (even if this is not 100% according > Abhidhamma-orthodoxy) because this way of reasoning works well to me. > > BTW Howard, you made so many short interesting remarks in the years I > participate in DSG. Is all that short track work not a pity? Why > don't you write a long text, even a book on this topics? You have > stuff and ideas enough. Or have you already written one but keeped it > secret for DSG (a serious question)? > > ======================== Joop, I'm very, very flattered by what you wrote here. Actually, the thought of writing some long monographs or short books has gone through my mind from time to time, but I haven't done it and probably won't. One reason is that I am an insufficient Buddhist scholar and not enough of an attained practitioner to warrant my putting forward my perspective on the Dhamma in such a fashion. Another reason is that to do it properly would be *such* an enormous task (for me) as to take away from my practice and also to take me away from my family to an extent that goes beyond my willingness. But Dhamma Study Group and other lists I've posted on do leave a public record, and if anyone should benefit from some of what I've written, that would make me very happy. Again, many thanks, Joop! With metta, Howard #60411 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? lbidd2 Joop: "I don't understand the process such as you (and others like Sarah and Nina) are referring when talking about 'accumulations'." Hi Joop, As I understand it accumulation is a repetition of a volitional consciousness preparatory to an action. Before we reach for something there is "I want, I want, I want" or something similar. This repetition is accumulation. Here is what the Visuddhimagga has to say: Vism.XVII,292. (a) Herein, [as regards the words] 'There were five causes in the past', firstly only these two, namely, ignorance and formations, are mentioned. But one who is ignorant hankers, and hankering, clings, and with his clinging as condition there is becoming; therefore craving, clinging and becoming are included as well. Hence it is said: 'In the previous kamma-process becoming, there is delusion, which is 'ignorance'; there is accumulation, which is 'formations'; there is attachment, which is 'craving'; there is embracing, which is 'clinging'; there is volition, which is 'becoming; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process becoming are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present becoming]' (Ps.i,52). 293. Herein, 'In the previous kamma-process becoming' means in kamma-process becoming done in the previous birth. 'There is delusion, which is ignorance' means that the delusion that there then was about suffering, etc., deluded whereby the man did the kamma, was ignorance. 'There is accumulation, which is formations' means the prior volitions arisen in one who prepares the things necessary for a gift during a month, perhaps, or a year after he has had the thought 'I shall give a gift'. But it is the volitions of one who is actually placing the offerings in the recipients' hands that are called 'becoming'. Or alternatively, it is the volition that is accumulation in six of the impulsions of a single adverting that is called 'formations', and the seventh volition is called 'becoming'. Or any kind of volition is called 'becoming' and the accumulations associated therewith are called 'formations'. 'There is attachment, which is craving' means that in one performing kamma whatever attachment there is and aspiration for its fruit as rebirth-process becoming is craving. 'There is embracing, which is clinging' means that the embracing, the grasping, the adherence, which is a condition for kamma-process becoming and occurs thus, 'By doing this I shall preserve, or I shall cut off, sense desire in such and such a place', is called clinging. 'There is volition, which is becoming' means the kind of volition stated already at the end of the [sentence dealing with] accumulation is becoming. This is how the meaning should be understood. L: This is referring to a way of looking at the 12-fold dependent arising in terms of 20 dhammas, but what concerns us is the explanation of 'accumulation' as "prior volitions" that condition an action. I previously thought accumulation had something to do with habit formation or the storage of kammic seeds awaiting the moment of kamma result, but this is apparently wrong. Larry #60412 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:22 am Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 9. nilovg The Roots of Good and Evil, no 9. Dear Friends, This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: <8. Crossing The Ocean A monk or a nun has not abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, such one has not crossed the ocean (of samsara),with its waves and whirlpools, monster and demons. But a monk or a nun who has abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, such a one has crossed the ocean (of samsara), with its waves and whirlpools, monsters and demons, has traversed it and gone to the other shore (Nibbana), standing on firm ground as a true saint. ~ ITIVUTTAKA 69> ***** Nina. #60413 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:41 am Subject: Monks and World Cup buddhatrue Hi All, I thought that this article was so hilarious!: PHNOM PENH, Cambodia (AP) - The chief of Cambodia's Buddhist monks is cutting his charges some slack for the duration of soccer's World Cup: they may watch the matches on television, but no cheering or getting excited. And absolutely no betting. The country's holy men - more than 90 percent of Cambodia's 13 million people are Buddhist - normally aren't supposed to watch television, movies or artistic displays. According to Buddhism's strictest tenets, they should abstain from pleasurable activity. Gambling is a major no-no. But monks get as excited as anyone else at the chance to watch soccer's top stars, and Supreme Patriarch Non Ngeth is willing to make allowances for such a special occasion. The games in Germany began Friday and run until the final on July 9. "The monks can watch the games on TV, but they may not bet on the games," the supreme patriarch told The Associated Press. "So far, I have received some complaints that some monks are betting during this World Cup tournament." He also says he urged the country's monks, if they do watch the matches, not to scream or laugh. "Cheering or screaming while watching TV are acts appropriate for children," he said. "Monks may not act like that." Non Ngeth has reason to be concerned about the country's monks. In recent years, several monks have made newspaper headlines for fighting with slingshots and petrol bombs at a temple, molesting a boy, beating a man and stealing motorcycles. #60414 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, No, very sorry, it is clear! I was in the middle of trying to clean the house and attend to children, quickly read your reply, misread your quoting of me as you saying something like you did not exactly say what I thought you said and got caught up in feeling embarassed to have misread you in the first place which I did not and... N: "Perhaps you did not read my other post. Is there anything not clear yet, please tell me." At any rate, no. Some moments are just better than others. Thanks for your speedy and, as always, well-conceived replies. Sincerely, Scott. #60415 From: han tun Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments - 7 hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am very glad that you have enjoyed reading my posts. I also received a warm response from Nina. You are right in referring to Ken’s comments that the courses of action are anatta and unpredictable. I have also studied examples of unexpected happy and unhappy rebirths. In Dr. Mehm Tin Mon’s book, there are examples concerning father of Sona Thera of Sri Lanka, King Dutthaagamani of Sri Lanka, Cunda the butcher, Queen Mallika, etc. My idea is even though everything is anatta and unpredictable, it is my “duty” to do my best. The rest is up to kamma or whatever dhamma you may name it. When I was younger I was very much result-oriented. Now, I become task-oriented and I do not care so much about the results. ‘Whatever result I may get, I will get it.’ ‘Whatever will be will be!’ Dear Sarah, I like your following advice: [Whatever our plans, ideas and intentions, perhaps we can say the most important thing is the development of understanding at these times of planning and at other times too. Gradually, awareness can be aware of the thinking, the hoping and expecting, the wise reflecting, the likes and dislikes, the seeing, the visible object and any other dhammas appearing now. The confidence in the path of satipatthana will accumulate and bring its good results sooner or later, whether we make plans or not.] For the sake of better explanation of my ideas I used the words, “plan of action, Plan A Plan B etc. But in actual practice, there is no such systematic planning. I simply keep on doing wholesome deeds including meditation. On the other hand the instructions given to my family members what they must do when I am about to die have been real. I have already given those instructions. Dear Sarah, it’s me who must thank you for your understanding and encouragement. I will share with you my ideas whenever there is an opportunity. At the moment, I am following your presentation of Nina’s cetasikas. It is very interesting and it is indeed a continuing education for me. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > > Thank you very much for your series of posts which > I've enjoyed reading > and reflecting on. It's very helpful to give the > theory and then your > personal comments as you've done. #60416 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane egberdina Hi KenH, On 11/06/06, ken_aitch wrote: > > Thanks for your comments. As you will see, I am not sure how they > relate to my statement. > > Perhaps I confused the issue by only talking about conscious actions. > At the time, I wasn't thinking of "trees falling in the forest" and > that kind of thing. > OK :-) > ---------------- > > I deny that conventional reality is (ultimately) reality, who doesn't? > But you are talking about "the physical world" so maybe you don't mean > "conventional reality." (?) > I'm going to draw a bit of a comparison between the concept of ultimate reality and some of the physical sciences. You may not find this a fair comparison, but it is just to make a point about the value and limits of reductionism. A run-of-the-mill chemist may feel that they are able to explain the workings of the world in terms of the 112 elements on the periodic table, and how these elements interact. A run-of-the-mill physicist will come along and spoil the party by saying that the chemist cannot explain the workings of an element, and will break down an element into sub-atomic particles, and so hold that he, the physicist, holds the key to understanding the universe. A run-of-the-mill quantum physicist will come along and spoil the party by saying that the physicist cannot explain the interactions between sub-atomic particles, and will reduce all existence into quanta. A run-of-the-mill string theorist will come along, and depending on whether he is wet or dry will announce 10 or 26 dimensions of reality. Etc etc etc. There is no foundation for assuming an ultimate level of reduction in the physical sciences. How does that relate to reducing everything to ultimate namas and rupas? That, too, would be a case of pseudo-science. Because, unless something is known as ultimate, it is going beyond what is known, or knowable to say it is ultimate. The Suttas do not deny the body, nor do they deny the dependency of the mind on the body. But there are some statements in there that reject that anything knowable can be ultimate, such as from DN 09, the Potthapada Sutta: "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. His earlier perception of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of the dimension of nothingness. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of the dimension of nothingness. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. "Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception." The peak of perception, or to rephrase that, the ultimate of what is knowable, is nothing, or nothingness. Beyond that is cessation, which is not known, or knowable. What else can be said about the reduction to ultimate namas and rupas? Again, from the Pothapada Sutta, the Buddha says this to Citta (no pun intended, I'm sure :-)) "In the same way, when there is a gross acquisition of a self... it's classified just as a gross acquisition of a self. When there is a mind-made acquisition of a self... When there is a formless acquisition of a self, it's not classified either as a gross acquisition of a self or as a mind-made acquisition of a self. It's classified just as a formless acquisition of a self." There are only these selves, Ken, and whatever is meant by "there are only namas and rupas" is so meant by one of these selves. One cannot think oneself away, one can only cease thinking. Kind Regards Herman > --------------------- > H: > Let alone that physical action can be non-mental and have > consequences for the mind. > --------------------- > > Rupas perform functions in much the same way as namas do. But, again, > I am not sure if that is the kind of action you have in mind. > > ---------------------------- > H: > I put it to you that the most critically causal event in your > > life had nothing to do with any consciousness of any sort, and that it > was the moment of your conception. And that without that conception, > as the most basic sine-qua-non, none of this would be happening. As an > extension of that, I would say that the act of the most gravest and > enduring consequence that any being is capable of, is contributing to > sexual reproduction, and that this happens despite or even without any > consciousness whatsoever. > > How say you? > > ---------------------------- > > You seem to be saying that the physical production of a body is the > most important event in the world. I won't argue, except to > remind you that the concept of a body can be explained in terms of > [momentary] rupas performing their [momentary] functions. > > Ken H > > #60417 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reading and Hearing the Dhamma jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >The following is a bit of a pet theory of mine. It has developed from a >theory put forward by Julian Jaynes in his book entitled "The origin of >consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind". It (both his and my >theories) requires a lot more work, and I am certainly open to ditching it >entirely if the evidence against it becomes overwhelming. > >The way I would put it is that the mind that can read is fundamentally >different form the mind that can't. We spend many years learning to read. >One of the consequences of that prolonged learning is that whenever we see >certain marks or squigles, there is an automatic attribution of meaning to >those marks. > Is this last the 'fundamental difference' you refer to earlier? Writing and speech have in common that they are are intended to communicate meaning. When we hear speech we also automatically attribute meaning. >In fact, I doubt that a well-trained reader could even see the >marks without the meanings. > Nor could a person hear speech without the meaning. >In relation to Buddhism, that has implications >for the possibility for mindfulness to arise, for I would consider the >seeing of meaning where there is none to be the very opposite of >mindfulness. > > Meaning is not seen, of course, it is attributed from the seen. In order for there to be meaning, there must first have been moments of (mere) seeing of visible object, no matter how quickly the one succeeds the other. Now Mindfulness may take (mere) visible object as its object or it may take the thinking that sees meaning as its object. Again, the parallel with hearing speech and understanding its meaning seems appropriate. >Now of course the hearing of a sutta can generate meaning beyond the sound >also. But I don't think we should equate the hearing of a sutta by a >reading-trained mind with the hearing of a sutta 2500 years by an illiterate >mind. > Literacy (and intelligence) are not the preserve of current times!! ;-)). The main difference I would see between then and now is the level of developed panna among the Buddha's followers (much higher then than now). >And that is where the theory requires more work. But I'd be happy to >read any comments you might have so far. No obligation of course. > > Even if there is a difference, and even if we are thereby disadvantaged as regards the development of the path compared to those of 2500 years ago (although I can't as yet see how that could be), you haven't said what bearing that has for us on the development of the path. Does it change the game in any regard? Jon #60418 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments - 7 egberdina Hello again, Han > > Dear Sarah, > > I am very glad that you have enjoyed reading my posts. > > I also received a warm response from Nina. > I am sorry that you did not receive my post warmly. You will do me a favour by not responding. Thank you and Kind Regards Herman #60420 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments - 7 hantun1 Dear Herman, When I received Nina’s comments, I wrote to you the following: Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:37:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "han tun" Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Dear Herman (and Nina) Nina’s comments are excellent. I would not be able to think of a better reply. Respectfully, Han ------------------- I did receive your post warmly, Herman. I apologize sincerely for my omission. Respectfully, Han --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hello again, Han > > Dear Sarah, > > I am very glad that you have enjoyed reading my > posts. > > I also received a warm response from Nina. > > I am sorry that you did not receive my post warmly. > You will do me a > favour by not responding. > > Thank you and Kind Regards > Herman > #60421 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:18 am Subject: How to Cure Anger and Irritation ... ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to Cure Anger, Aversion, Irritation, Opposition and Stubbornness! Evil and ill-will is the mental hindrance which is resisting against & opposing phenomena. It can be quite violent when manifesting as quarrels, conflict, hate, hostility and war. Aversion instantly destroys all harmony and peace and thus any potential for happiness. It can only be cured by meditation on the four infinitely divine states (Brahma-viharas). First priority: Noticing Evil-Will (Vyapada) arise -in itself- makes it fade away: Herein, Bhikkhus, when Evil-Will is present in him the bhikkhu notes & understands: "There is Evil-Will in me," and when Evil-Will is absent, he notes & understands: "There is no Evil-Will in me." He also understands how unarisen Evil-Will arises. He understands how to leave behind any arisen Evil-Will, and he understands how left Evil-Will shall not arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Evil-Will arise? There are displeasing and repulsive features and aspects of any object, frequently giving irrational & unwise attention to them, this is the feeding cause of the arising of unarisen Evil-Will, and the feeding cause of the increase and expansion of Evil-Will that already has arisen. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Evil-Will cease? There is the release of mind through Universal Good-Will & Friendliness, frequently giving rational & wise attention to this is the starving cause of the non-arising of unarisen Evil-Will, and the starving cause of the decrease and shrinking of Evil-Will that already has arisen. SN 46:51 Which medicine cures Evil-Will, so that it does not re-arise again in the future? One should cultivate the meditation on Universal Friendliness (metta)! For by cultivating the meditation on Universal Friendliness, evil and ill-will gradually disappears. One should cultivate the meditation on All-embracing Pity (karuna)! For by cultivating the meditation on All-embracing Pity, cruelty and harming violence fades away. One should cultivate the meditation on Sympathetic Mutual Joy (mudita)! For by cultivating the meditation on Sympathetic Mutual Joy, discontent, envy & jealousy evaporates. One should cultivate the meditation on Imperturbable Equanimity (upekkha)! For by cultivating the meditation on Imperturbable Equanimity, anger and aversion cease to exist. MN 62 Some advantageous reflections to return to: Remember the Simile of the Saw... The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not be angry but do my bidding: Remain pervading them with a friendly mentality imbued with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, and immeasurable. Free from hostility, free from ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves... MN 21 BOILING Those absorbed in such accusations as: "He/She/They abused, hurt, did me or us wrong " whether right or wrong !, such foolish ones prolong own pain by being obsessed by own anger. However !!! Those freed of these accusations: "He/She/They abused, hurt, did me or us wrong " noting: whether right or wrong - so what !!! - such ones stop own pain by relinquishing all anger. Dhammapada 3+4 FUEL ON FIRE ? Not by anger is Hate ever quenched. Only by Kindness is Hate always quenched. This Ancient Law is an Eternal ... Truth ... Dhammapada 5 BOOMERANG Do not ever speak harshly as angry talk is always answered back with angry talk. Painful indeed is arrogant speech. The inevitable retaliation invariably falls back on such proud boaster. Dhammapada 133 TOLERANCE Tolerant forbearance is the highest praxis. Nibbana is the supreme state. So all Buddhas say. The violent one is not a Recluse. The harmful one is not a Bhikkhu. Dhammapada 184 OWNER Know that everyone is then owner of the consequences of their actions (Kamma), created by their actions, in debt by their actions, linked to their actions, whether good or bad, like a shadow that never leaves... The 11 advantages won by cultivating Universal Friendliness (metta): One sleeps Happy ! One wakes Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison or Weapons ! One swiftly Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment nor Panic ! One reappears after death on the Brahma level if one has gone no higher here! AN V342 Further tricks on Universal Friendliness: Friendliness Frees! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Friendliness_Frees.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> #60422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. nilovg op 12-06-2006 14:05 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: This is helpful. It is only recently that I am learning about true jhaana, and the difficulty in its attainment. When the jhaanacittas are absorbed, with no other experience, this is pure absorption. -------- N: I used the expression absorption, but I realize that this word could be misleading. The jhaanacitta is kusala citta accompanied by paññaa, sati, hiri, ottappa, and the other sobhana cetasikas that assist the kusala citta. Paññaa of the level of jhaana knows the right conditions for jhaana, being free of sense-impressions. It sees the danger of clinging to them. Hiri and ottappa shrink back and are averse from sense impressions and clinging to sense objects. There is also saddhaa, great confidence in the benefit of freedom of sense impressions. All the accompanying cetasikas perform their own functions. -------- S: Emerging from this, or might one say when the jhaanacittas subside, "someone" can begin to contemplate. -------- N: Paññaa reviews the jhaanacitta that has just fallen away. If there are sufficient conditions for the development of insight, paññaa of the level of vipassanaa can realize the jhaanacitta and accompanying jhaanafactors as non-self. ***** Nina. #60423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:00 am Subject: Discussions in Paris, 6, conclusion. nilovg Discussions in Paris, 6 Dear Han, We did not discuss more about the two points that are left. I can think about it and add something, but I do not know whether it is of any help. Han wrote: (6) Sometimes citta is accompanied by sati and paññaa, mostly not. The above is true for an uninstructed puthujjana. Here again, can we not train ourselves so that citta is accompanied by sati and panna more often? ------- N: Yes, we can, if we do not cling to sati and paññaa. When we have well understood the functions of sati and paññaa which are cetasikas arising with kusala citta, and about the object of sati and paññaa which is nama or rupa, not a concept, there are conditions for their arising. When they arise and then fall away they are accumulated and that means: they can arise again and again. That is, as I see it, the training. If we see that clinging to sati and paññaa is counteractive there will be less clinging to it. Clinging can make one believe that there is a great deal of sati and paññaa, but actually it is not true sati and paññaa. -------- Han: (8) Noting and concentrating. This we have discussed before. I said we need to “note the wandering mind with noting mind. Or we need to note the in-breath and out-breath. But you think differently, is it not? Do we have to leave the wandering mind alone? Do we have to leave the in-breath and out-breath alone? -------- N: The expression 'wandering mind' is used by the venerable Sayadaw in a specific context, and I am not used to this terminology. As I see the wandering mind, these are akusala citta and cetasikas, such as restlessness (uddhacca). We may notice them, but the question is: are they realized as conditioned dhammas? It depends on sati sampajañña which may arise, or may not. The Buddha explained that also restlessness is an object of awareness, in the Application of Mindfulness of Dhammas. As to in-breath and out-breath, we both studied the commentaries to the anapanasati sutta and the Visuddhimagga commentary to it. It can be a meditation subject of samatha and it can also be object of insight. When insight is developed, the characteristics of hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure may appear through the bodysense. What I find a difficult point is that breath is produced by citta, and that it is very subtle. It may appear because of conditions, or it may not appear. Difficult to be sure what breath is, different from air one may be blowing in or out. If one tries to make it appear there may be lobha, not bhavana. I understand that it is most subtle, that ³only Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas and Buddhas sons are at home² with this subject, as the Visuddhimagga stated. I wonder whether it can be a foundation or proximate cause for vipassana if one does not attain jhaana with it? Many questions remain, and personally I am not used or inclined to this subject. Lodewijk and I discussed not much about this subject. This is about all I can add to our discussions in Paris. Nina. #60424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? nilovg Hi Larry, The term accumulation is used in different contexts with different meanings. There are different aspects to it: the javanacittas are accumulating kusala or akusala in their own series. Also what you used to think is correct. Accumulation of kamma: ayuhaana. How otherwise could kamma performed long ago produce result even after aeons? Accumulation of good or bad tendencies: this has to do with natural strong dependence-condition. Accumulated confidence in daana, former daana, conditions present daana by way of natural strong dependence-condition. Here we think of good and bad tendencies carried on from one citta to the next one. The akusala latent tendencies are called anusayas, lying dormant in each citta like microbes. The wholesome latent accumulations are called aasayas. Nina. op 13-06-2006 01:10 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: I previously thought accumulation had something to do with habit formation or the storage of kammic seeds awaiting the moment of kamma result, but this is apparently wrong. #60425 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:38 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 472- Non-Aversion/Adosa (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa) ***** The function of non-aversion is the removing of annoyance or vexation and non-aversion is compared to sandalwood which has a very agreeable odour and is said to cure fever. When there is aversion we are vexed and annoyed; we burn with the fever of hate and we may become uncontrolled, we may not know what we are doing. Aversion is like a fire, it is hard to extinguish. However, when non-aversion arises we are cured of the fever of aversion, all annoyance has gone. ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60426 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wise words from Phra Dhammadaro sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Good quotes and great comments of yours! 'Absolutely drenched' with lobha sounds about right:-). I'll keep this short as you said you're not reading any feedback:-)). Metta, Sarah --- Phil wrote: > Phra Dhammadaro: > > "People sometimes - when they begin to see how much wrong > understanding they have - get very depressed, but they should be > delighted -because its right understanding that knows that they have > wrong understanding - and this is the grounds, the foundation, for > the further development of right understanding." > > The same goes for seeing how much lobha there is, how the citta > processes are absolutely drenched with it, and moha. We have to get > this first, for if we don't we plunge merrily down the path in > deluded practices rooted in attachment. .... #60427 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 sarahprocter... Dear Han (Nina & all), --- han tun wrote: > > I am now trying to establish the inter-relationship > between these three topics. > <..> > (b) Kamma-catukkas and Maranaasanna nimittas. > > The relationship between the kamma-catukkas (four > kinds of action) and the maranaasanna nimittas > (kamma-related objects) is not clearly described in > the book. But there must definitely be a connection > between these two groups, because these two groups are > responsible for the kind of rebirth in next life. .... S: There is a lot of detail given in the Sammohavinodanii (In English, 'The Dispeller' (PTS),under ch 6, 'Classification of the Structure of Conditions'. Here are a couple of quotes which may be of some relevance, under 'Rebirth-linking': .... 1."In brief, rebirth-linking has three kinds of objects, kamma, the sign of kamma and the sign of the destiny. Herein, kamma is accumulated profitable and unprofitable volition; the sign of kamma is that thing (vatthu) by taking which as its object kamma was accumulated. Herein, although the kamma was performed a hundred thousand kotis of aeons ago in the past, yet at that moment the kamma or its sign comes and makes its appearance." ..... An example of 'sign of blameless kamma': .... 2."In the case of one in the states of bliss, however, who has stored up blameless kamma, when he is lying on his deathbed, his blameless kamma according as it has been stored up, or its sign, comes into focus in the mind door. For it is said: 'Then [the good deeds he did in the past]...cover him, [overspread] and envelop]' (M iii171) and so on. And that applies only in the case of one who has stored up blameless sense-sphere kamma. "But only the sign of the kamma comes into focus in the case of one who has stored up kamma of the expanded (mahaggata) spheres. Next to the cognitive series of impulsions ending in registration, or of simple impulsions, which has arisen on being instigated by that [kamma or its sign], there arises the death consciousness making the object of the life-continuum its object. When that has ceased, there arises, instigated by that same kamma or sign of kamma which had come into focus, the rebirth-linking consciousness included (located) in the states of bliss, having been driven [there] by the force of the defilements which have not been cut off. This is the kind of rebirth-linking which has a past or not so classifiable object and comes next to death consciousness with a past object." .... S: Many different examples and permutations are given. .... > In maranaasanna vithis, it is said that an akusala or > kusala citta normally functions 5 times as javanas in > these vithis, and that these javanas are known as > ‘maranaasanna-javanas.’ But the book does not > specifically mention that these akusala and kusala > cittas which are known as ‘maranaasanna-javanas’ are > indeed the kamma-catukkas (garuka-kamma, or > aasanna-kamma, or aacinna-kamma, or katattaa-kamma). > Therefore, it is not clear where and when these > kamma-catukkas arise. .... S: I understand the past kamma (whichever kind and whenever 'performed') conditions the last javana cittas and the object experienced (the same as for the next rebirth consciousness as you know). One more quote which your comments reminded me of: .... "In another's case, relatives present [objects] at the five sense doors; either a visible datum as object such as flowers, garlands, flags, banners,etc, saying: 'This is being offered to the Blessed One (Buddhapuujaa) for your sake, dear, set your mind at rest;' or a sound as object, such as preaching of the Dhamma, offerings of music, etc.; or an odour as object, such as incense, scents, perfumes, etc., or a taste as object such as honey, molasses,etc., [saying] 'Taste this, dear, it is a gift to be given for your sake;' or a tangible datum as object such as China cloth, Somara cloth, etc., [saying] 'Touch this, dear, it is a gift to be given for your sake.' "When that visible datum, etc., as object has come into focus for him, and the consciousness ending with determining have arisen in due succession, there arise in him impulsions which are five in number because of slowing down due to the nearness of death, and the two registrations; after that, the one death consciousness making the object of the life-continuum its object. At the end of that, there arises rebirth-linking consciousness having that same object which lasts for a single conscious moment. This also is the kind of rebirth-linking which has a present object and comes next to death consciousness with a past object." .... S: It's a difficult topic and I appreciate the details you've given and your reflections, Han. Metta, Sarah ======= #60428 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? sarahprocter... Hi Ken O (& Joop), Thanks for helping out in this and other threads, Ken O:-). I liked your great Dispeller & Expositor quotes (like the details here) and your other posts on 'feelings' etc in other threads. You're on a roll:-)). --- Ken O wrote: > As according to Expositor pg 55, "grasped" means - seize as effect by > kamma, attended by craving and wrong view in the act of senseing or > thinking of an object. pg 493, "Grasping is a catching hold > strongly, the prefix in the word (upa)having the meaning of 'strong' > as in 'despair', 'denounced'. Then on pg 332 Greed has the > characterisitc of grasping the object like sticky lime, the function > of clinging like a piece of flesh thrown into a hot pan; the > manifestation of not letting go like a taint of lampblack; the > proximate cause of viewing the fetter-like states as enjoyment. > > Hence in Abhidhamma, both greed and clinging are synoymous. I dont > have a good explanation. But why the difference is used in DO, my > guess is that Craving is used as an emphasis, in the sense that it is > a craving is the one that causes the endless rebirth,<...> .... S: And isn't it so true that attachment leads to clinging or grasping? We think that common, ordinary tanha is harmless, but it accumulates and when it becomes strong enough there is clinging(upadana) which leads to akusala kamma patha or bhava (in D.O.) which perpetuates the cycle of birth and death. Just a few ideas.... Thanks again for your help and to Joop for all the good questions. Metta, Sarah ===== #60429 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Possibly My "Missing Sutta": The Gotami Sutta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thanks for telling us. Now, I believe Matheesha and maybe someone else have 'Missing Suttas' on the go. I'd like to encourage everyone to tell us when they eventually track them down, so we can call off the searches!! --- upasaka@... wrote: AN VIII.53 > ________________________ ... Metta, Sarah ======== #60430 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Outside the Buddha Discipline - Why there is no liberation out of Buddha Teaching sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi All > > Recently I read in the mail that why should only Buddha's teaching > can help liberate beings and not others. > > from Numerical Discourses of the Buddhha - Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter > of the Tens, pg 263, Not Outside the Buddha Discipline > > < Discipline of the Sublime Master. What are the ten? <....> .... S: We often select the same texts:-). I referred to this same one in my recent correspondence with Dan, but if you check back, you'll see his spirited defence of why he considers it only applies to enlightenment. (Several posts back and forth). When he returns, you're most welcome to take it up again with him... Metta, Sarah ======= #60431 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks, and apologies again for my earlier mix-up. N: "I used the expression absorption, but I realize that this word could be misleading. The jhaanacitta is kusala citta accompanied by pa��aa, sati, hiri, ottappa, and the other sobhana cetasikas that assist the kusala citta. Pa��aa of the level of jhaana knows the right conditions for jhaana, being free of sense-impressions. It sees the danger of clinging to them. Hiri and ottappa shrink back and are averse from sense impressions and clinging to sense objects. There is also saddhaa, great confidence in the benefit of freedom of sense impressions. All the accompanying cetasikas perform their own functions" The beauty of the variegated arising of a given citta/cetasika "complex." All these functions, combined, co-conditioning... N: "Pa��aa reviews the jhaanacitta that has just fallen away. If there are sufficient conditions for the development of insight, pa��aa of the level of vipassanaa can realize the jhaanacitta and accompanying jhaanafactors as non-self." Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. P.S. What must I do to my computer such that when, for example, pa~n~naa is written, as above, the "~n~n" part doesn't appear as two diamonds with question marks in their centre (or is this a mystical buddhist sign of which I am unaware)? I do have fonts installed (I thought). #60432 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > The term accumulation is used in different contexts with different meanings. ... Hallo Nina, Larry, KenO, Sarah, all Thanks for your information Nina. But my question that Larry tried to answer was another one. My question is: how can the 'accumulation' phenomena be combined, be united, with the principles of Abhidhamma. The principle that there are four (no more no less) kind of paramattha dhamma: citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana; and the principle that - except nibbana - this dhamma are arising and falling away within some milliseconds. You talk about "called anusayas, lying dormant in each citta like microbes" Well, that's a good metaphore but it is a metaphore using the concepts 'dormant', and 'microbes'; what is the literal meaning? Does a accumulation, lying dormant in a citta as you explain transmigrate to the next citta occurring in time? Or is it more correct to say that a citta (with a accumulation in it) conditions the next arising citta when it falls away, at the same moment conditioning the new accumulation in the new citta, being the old accumulation plus or minus something? I accept your explanation of 'accumulations', I think they exist and do play a bigger role than we (wordlings) most time know and like. But in order to unite this phenomena with Abhidhamma we had to accept that there are not two but three realities: - concept - the four kind of paramattha dhammas - accumulation: not so easy and not so quick falling away and being a condition not only for the next citta occurring in time but (also) for cittas a long period later. My question arose in my study of the 9th nidana of Dependent Origination: upadana. That's a phenomena that also does not fall away so quick and can in my opinion not be the same as the 8th nidana - lobha - (as Sarah stated) and does not occur on the list of paramattha dhammas I know. So perhaps 'upadana' also belongs to the third category of realities. Metta Joop #60433 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Paris, 6, conclusion. hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Thank you very much for taking all the trouble in discussing on my points. I really appreciate it. (6) Training ourselves so that citta is accompanied by sati and panna more often. N: Yes, we can, if we do not cling to sati and paññaa. When we have well understood the functions of sati and paññaa which are cetasikas arising with kusala citta, and about the object of sati and paññaa which is nama or rupa, not a concept, there are conditions for their arising. When they arise and then fall away they are accumulated and that means: they can arise again and again. That is, as I see it, the training. Han: Your definition of “training” is very clear. I like it. In particular, I must be careful not to cling to sati and pannaa, and I must remind myself that the object of sati and paññaa should be a paramattha dhamma such as nama or rupa,, and should not be a concept. N: If we see that clinging to sati and paññaa is counteractive there will be less clinging to it. Clinging can make one believe that there is a great deal of sati and paññaa, but actually it is not true sati and paññaa. Han: It is true. ---------------------- (8) Regarding noting the wandering mind. N: The expression 'wandering mind' is used by the venerable Sayadaw in a specific context, and I am not used to this terminology. As I see the wandering mind, these are akusala citta and cetasikas, such as restlessness (uddhacca). We may notice them, but the question is: are they realized as conditioned dhammas? It depends on sati sampajañña which may arise, or may not. The Buddha explained that also restlessness is an object of awareness, in the Application of Mindfulness of Dhammas. Han: I agree that the ‘wandering mind’ is akusala citta and cetasikas, such as restlessness (uddhacca). To see what I meant by noting the wandering mind, I will repeat Sayadaw’s instruction: Quote [Your mind may wander elsewhere while you are noting the abdominal movement. This must also be noted by mentally saying `wandering, wandering.' When this has been noted once or twice, the mind stops wandering, in which case you go back to noting the rising and falling of the abdomen.] End quote. Sayadaw might have instructed to realize the wandering mind as conditioned dhamma, but I am not sure. N: As to in-breath and out-breath, we both studied the commentaries to the anapanasati sutta and the Visuddhimagga commentary to it. It can be a meditation subject of samatha and it can also be object of insight. When insight is developed, the characteristics of hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure may appear through the bodysense. What I find a difficult point is that breath is produced by citta, and that it is very subtle. It may appear because of conditions, or it may not appear. Difficult to be sure what breath is, different from air one may be blowing in or out. If one tries to make it appear there may be lobha, not bhavana. I understand that it is most subtle, that ³only Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas and Buddhas sons are at home² with this subject, as the Visuddhimagga stated. I wonder whether it can be a foundation or proximate cause for vipassana if one does not attain jhaana with it? Han: The above paragraph is too deep for me to understand. When I do anapanasati I simply note the air (in-breath and out-breath) moving in and out touching the tip of the nostril. I know breath is produced by citta, but it does not occur to me that it may appear because of conditions, or it may not appear. It does not occur to me that it is difficult to be sure what breath is, and it does not occur to me that in-breath and out-breath may be different from air I may be blowing in or out. It also does not occur to me that the in-breath and out-breath may not be a foundation or proximate cause for vipassana if I do not attain jhaana with it. I had all along regarded it as a very simple procedure. But now I am not so sure. N: Many questions remain, and personally I am not used or inclined to this subject. Lodewijk and I discussed not much about this subject. This is about all I can add to our discussions in Paris. Han: Both of you have done a lot for me already. I thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Discussions in Paris, 6 > > Dear Han, > We did not discuss more about the two points that > are left. I can think > about it and add something, but I do not know > whether it is of any help. > #60434 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? scottduncan2 Dear Joop, May I please enter into your good discussion? J: "You talk about "...anusayas, lying dormant in each citta like microbes" Well, that's a good metaphore but it is a metaphore using the concepts 'dormant', and 'microbes'; what is the literal meaning? Does a accumulation, lying dormant in a citta as you explain transmigrate to the next citta occurring in time? Or is it more correct to say that a citta (with a accumulation in it) conditions the next arising citta when it falls away, at the same moment conditioning the new accumulation in the new citta, being the old accumulation plus or minus something?" Would it be fair to point out that you might be talking about "an accumulation," which might not exist? Might one instead consider "accumulation" to be what the various cetasikas which arise with citta tend towards? That is, they "accumulate?" This distinction may avoid the need to wonder whether an accumulation ought to be third on a list of realities. Just a thought... What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #60435 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you ever so much for your explanations with relevant quotes. I would understand them better if there are Pali words inserted in it. But I can get the rough idea. The Dying Moments – 5 was intended to serve as a basis for my plans mentioned in Dying Moments 6 – 7. My main idea is (1) I will, with the help of my family members, try to have a good aasanna kamma (like the examples you also have given in your post) just before my death; and (2) to accumulate aacinna kamma throughout my life so that if I lie on my death-bed helpless at the mercy of any strong thoughts forcing entry into my mind, my accumulated good aacinna kamma might come to my rescue by preventing the evil thoughts from entering, or by functioning as aasanna kamma. Whether these ideas are possible or not, I do not know. That’s why I wrote: [Again, there is no guarantee that my Plan A would work as I expected at the crucial moment. Again, my motto will be “try costs nothing” I will have nothing to loose. In fact, I will benefit by doing meritorious deeds all throughout my life. Leaving aside aacinna kamma and aasanna kamma, by doing meritorious deeds I will have a strong faith (saddha) and joy (piti) and happiness (sukha); and I will be liked by humans and devas.] Yes, Sarah, it is indeed a very difficult topic. I think it may be easier not to try to go into so much detail (like I am now doing) and just take your simple advice: [S: I understand the past kamma (whichever kind and whenever 'performed') conditions the last javana cittas and the object experienced (the same as for the next rebirth consciousness as you know)] This will makes things much easier. Isn’t it? Once again, Sarah, I thank you very much and I really appreciate your comments. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han (Nina & all), > > S: There is a lot of detail given in the > Sammohavinodanii (In English, > 'The Dispeller' (PTS),under ch 6, 'Classification of > the Structure of > Conditions'. > .... > S: Many different examples and permutations are > given. > .... > S: I understand the past kamma (whichever kind and > whenever 'performed') > conditions the last javana cittas and the object > experienced (the same as > for the next rebirth consciousness as you know). > .... > S: It's a difficult topic and I appreciate the > details you've given and > your reflections, Han. > > Metta, > Sarah > ======= > #60436 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions in Paris, 6, conclusion. nilovg Dear Han, op 13-06-2006 14:26 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: Thank you very much for taking all the trouble in discussing on my points. I really appreciate it. ------ N: We also appreciated your remarks, and Lodewijk said that it is food for thought for a lifetime. ------ Han: Your definition of “training” is very clear. I like it. In particular, I must be careful not to cling to sati and pannaa, ------ N: I cling too, and then good reminders of friends help. Nina. #60437 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? ashkenn2k Hi Joop > But how do we (or the composers of the Dhammasangani) know what is > exactly the list of knowable paramattha dhamma? k: hmm good questions :-). We just have to trust them! Cheers! I think they are Arahants so they should know what they are talking about. And I believe it is Buddha who teach these to Ven Sariputta. But Abhidhamma origination is always controversial, hmm so lets not discuss this. So lets have faith :-) > > Ken (in #60353): "accumulations is a function of all cittas. Before > > the citta cease, it conditions the next citta to arise, that how > accumulation cease and arise in each citta" > > Joop: Do I understand you well and is IN a citta, itself arising > and falling away; something arising and falling away, that 'something' called 'accumulation' ? What exactly is a 'function'? A property, a dimension, or whatever? I don't understand the process such as you (and others like Sarah and Nina) are referring when talking about 'accumulations'. k: Accumulations is a characteristics of a citta just like heat is a characteristics of a fire (real fire ok, not special effects). So it will be conditioned citta to citta as citta rise and falls, so does it. Hence it cannot remain unaffected while citta falls and rise because it is inseparable with citta just like heat with fire. > Joop: I agree with you, only the problem is: is "accumulations" and is "upadana" is concept or a paramatha: you have not given me a proof that they are paramatha; that's all. k: they are paramathas, I wont say accumulation is paramatha because it is a characteristic of citta (in a way it is paramatha :-)). As I said above, we just got to have faith :-). This is what I meant by accumulations, even though there is no word of accumulation stated here. Just a short passage from SN by Ven Bodhi Book II Book of Nidanavagga, pg 594 <> Cheers Ken O #60438 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? nilovg Hallo Joop, op 13-06-2006 14:43 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: My question is: how can the 'accumulation' phenomena be combined, be united, with the principles of Abhidhamma. The principle that there are four (no more no less) kind of paramattha dhamma.... You talk about "called anusayas, lying dormant in each citta like microbes" Well, that's a good metaphore but it is a metaphore using the concepts 'dormant', and 'microbes'; what is the literal meaning? ------ N: it does not arise with akusala citta, but it can condition the arising of akusala citta. They are defilements not yet eradicated. As Scott suggested, they are cetasikas. Microbes lie dormant but can cause the eruption of sickness at any time. They are classified as a group of cetasikas, thus, they are realities, not concepts. -------- J:Does a accumulation, lying dormant in a citta as you explain transmigrate to the next citta occurring in time? ------ N: I would not use the word transmigration as if it is something that lasts. ---------- J: Or is it more correct to say that a citta (with a accumulation in it) conditions the next arising citta when it falls away, at the same moment conditioning the new accumulation in the new citta, being the old accumulation plus or minus something? ----- N: this renders more the fact that accumulations change. They do not stay the same. ------- J: I accept your explanation of 'accumulations', I think they exist and do play a bigger role than we (wordlings) most time know and like. But in order to unite this phenomena with Abhidhamma we had to accept that there are not two but three realities: - concept - the four kind of paramattha dhammas - accumulation: not so easy and not so quick falling away and being a condition not only for the next citta occurring in time but (also) for cittas a long period later. -------- N: If we think of the natural strong dependence-condition as taught in the abhidhamma, it may be clearer. This is a relation between realities, between paramattha dhammas. When you were taught as a child never to speak a lie, such good tendency is accumulated and it conditions right speech today. We do not have to think, is it a concept or not. It can be verified. The same happens to someone who took coke as a child. He will be taken to drugs as an adult. These two examples are a demonstration of accumulated tendencies that condition the arising of citta today by way of natural strong dependence-condition. ------- J: My question arose in my study of the 9th nidana of Dependent Origination: upadana. That's a phenomena that also does not fall away so quick and can in my opinion not be the same as the 8th nidana - lobha - ----- N: it is lobha cetasika, but different names are given when used in a different context. It arises and falls away very rapidly, like all conditioned dhammas. See Sarah's recent post to Ken O and Ken's explanations: --- Ken O > wrote: ..... > Hence in Abhidhamma, both greed and clinging are synoymous. I dont > have a good explanation. But why the difference is used in DO, my > guess is that Craving is used as an emphasis, in the sense that it is > a craving is the one that causes the endless rebirth,<...> .... Sarah: And isn't it so true that attachment leads to clinging or grasping? We think that common, ordinary tanha is harmless, but it accumulates and when it becomes strong enough there is clinging(upadana) which leads to akusala kamma patha or bhava (in D.O.) which perpetuates the cycle of birth and death.> end quotes. ***** Nina. #60439 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:04 am Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 10 nilovg Dear Friends, This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: The Three Fires There are three fires: the fire of lust, the fire of hatred and the fire of delusion. The fire of lust burns lustful mortals Who are entangled in the sense-objects. The fire of hatred burns wrathful men Who urged by hate slay living beings. Delusion fire burns foolish folk Who cannot see the holy Dhamma The who delight in the embodied group Do not know this triple fire. They cause the worlds of woe to grow: The hells, and life as animal, The ghostly and demoniac realms; Unfreed are they from Mara's chains. But those who live by day and night Devoted to the Buddha's law, They quench within the fire of hate By loving-kindness, loftiest of men Delusion's fire they also quench By wisdom ripening in penetration. When they extinguish these three fires, Wise, unremitting day and night, Completely they are liberated, Completely they transcend all ill. Sense of the holy realm, Through perfect knowledge wise, By direct vision ending all rebirth, They do not go to any existence. ~ ITIVUTTAKA 93 ***** Nina. #60440 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:49 pm Subject: Wissenschaftslehre? ksheri3 Dear Nina, Long time no see huh? How's trix? Be that as it may I look forward to reading: "THE CONDITIONALITY OF LIFE IN THE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS..." It took me a few clicks to find it but once I read the "abhidharma" I entered it only to find it's author was seemingly leading me to it. It seems soothing on the surface, Thank You toodles, colette Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) egberdina Hi Jon, On 03/06/06, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Herman > > Herman Hofman wrote: > > >Hi Jon, Tep, all, > > > >The following is prompted by what Jon wrote. It is a point of confusion for > >me, and I would appreciate assistance from anyone. > > > > > > > >>I have a different view. For example, as I write this message there is > >>no actual abstaining from killing, because there is just no question of > >>any killing being done. Likewise there is no abstaining from the other > >>kinds of akusala about which the precepts are concerned. > >> > >> > >I understand what Jon is saying. Does the same apply to ignorance? Can there > >be talk of ignorance if there is not the opportunity or possibility of > >knowing? If there is the opportunity of knowing in every moment, what's > >accumulations got to do with anything? > > > > > > In the example I gave, it is a case of kusala arising where there is the > far stronger inherent tendency to akusala. The less inclination there > is, in terms of a given individual's inherent/accumulated tendencies, to > the taking of life in the first place, the less occasion there would be > for that particular form of abstaining to occur (and where the > inclination has been eradicated completely, no occasion at all). > > Whether there is in fact abstaining in a given instance is dependent > also on the individual's accumulated tendencies for that particular form > of kusala. > > As regards the existence or otherwise of these 'accumulated tendencies' > wholesome and unwholesome, this is beyond or ability to prove or > disprove, as they are said to lie latent in the consciousness (except to > the very limited extent that they manifest at any given moment). But we > can of course see if the hypothesis fits with our (present moment) > experience of things. What would be your perception on this? > I agree with your last paragraph. My perception is necessarily limited to what is consciously available, and what lies latent or dormant is beyond my ability to be conscious of. And I like the idea of matching hypotheses with data. The brain is said to have 100 billion neurons, with each neuron having upto 10,000 connections to other neurons. Given that every neuron can be in at least two states, firing or not-firing, and that neural connections change with neural events, we can come to appreciate that the brain/mind is complex beyond anything conceivable. It is quite marvelous to think that the All of experience somehow originates in all that complexity in a few pounds of goo!! Kind Regards Herman #60442 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? lbidd2 Nina: "The term accumulation is used in different contexts with different meanings. There are different aspects to it: the javanacittas are accumulating kusala or akusala in their own series." Hi Nina, Exactly. That accumulation in javana series is what the Vism. referred to, and also the accumulation of preparations. I would like to see some examples of any other kind of accumulation. I know the english word "accumulation" can refer to many things in a conventional sense but I wonder if it is used in that way in the commentaries. I think we may be straying into a mahayana idea of 'storehouse consciousness' which is really not in theravada abhidhamma if we look outside this rather narrow definition. The key concept here seems to be that the accumulation of volitional consciousnesses conditions action which in terms of dependent arising is 'becoming'. I don't see a reference to accumulation of kamma through several life-times. And I don't see the idea that a 'compact whole' is created by accumulation. In english these would both be valid usages of the word 'accumulation'. We could say that when one volitional consciousness conditions another volitional consciousness of the same kind through decisive support condition that is accumulation, but the idea behind accumulation isn't so much an establishing of a pattern or habit, as it is that accumulation is a kind of building up of energy that conditions a more powerful volitional consciousness with serious consequences. This has an application in bhavana. We hear the same thing over and over, then one day we really hear it. [By 'hear' I mean 'understand'.] Larry #60443 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:44 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,82 Vism.XVII,83 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 82. (b) Also 'proximate-decisive-support condition' is set forth without differentiating it from the proximity condition in the way beginning, 'Any preceding profitable aggregates are condition, as decisive-support condition, for any succeeding aggregates' (P.tn.1,165). But in the exposition there is a distinction, because in the exposition of the schedule (maatikaanikkhepa) they are given as proximity in the way beginning, 'Eye-consciousness element and the states associated therewith are a condition, as proximity condition, for mind element and for the states associated therewith' (P.tn.1,2) and as decisive support in the way beginning, 'Any preceding profitable states are a condition as decisive-support condition, for any succeeding profitable states' (P.tn.1,4), though it comes to the same thing as regards the meaning. Nevertheless, 'proximity' may be understood as the ability to cause the occurrence of an appropriate conscious arising proximate (next) to itself, and 'decisive-support' as the preceding consciousness's cogency in the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses. 83. For while in the cases of root-cause and other such conditions consciousness can arise actually without any of those conditions, there is no arising of consciousness without a proximity consciousness [to precede it], so this is a cogent condition. Their difference, then, may be understood in this way: 'proximity condition' arouses an appropriate consciousness proximate (next) to itself, while 'proximity-decisive-support condition' is a cogent reason. *************************** 82. anantaruupanissayopi ``purimaa purimaa kusalaa khandhaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m khandhaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo''tiaadinaa (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.9) nayena anantarapaccayena saddhi.m naanatta.m akatvaava vibhatto. maatikaanikkhepe pana nesa.m ``cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatu ta.msampayuttakaa ca dhammaa manodhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m anantarapaccayena paccayo''tiaadinaa (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.4) nayena anantarassa, ``purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo''tiaadinaa (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.9) nayena upanissayassa aagatattaa nikkhepe viseso atthi. sopi atthato ekiibhaavameva gacchati. eva.m santepi attano attano anantaraa anuruupassa cittuppaadassa pavattanasamatthataaya anantarataa, purimacittassa pacchimacittuppaadane balavataaya anantaruupanissayataa veditabbaa. 83. yathaa hi hetupaccayaadiisu ki~nci dhamma.m vinaapi citta.m uppajjati, na eva.m anantaracitta.m vinaa cittassa uppatti naama atthi. tasmaa balavapaccayo hoti. iti attano attano anantaraa anuruupacittuppaadanavasena anantarapaccayo, balavakaara.navasena anantaruupanissayoti evametesa.m naanatta.m veditabba.m. #60444 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane ken_aitch Hi Herman, ------ H: > I'm going to draw a bit of a comparison between the concept of ultimate reality and some of the physical sciences. You may not find this a fair comparison, but it is just to make a point about the value and limits of reductionism. > > There is no foundation for assuming an ultimate level of reduction in the physical sciences. How does that relate to reducing everything to ultimate namas and rupas? ------------- Any reduction of namas and rupas into sub-namas and sub-rupas (assuming it were possible) would be extraneous to the Dhamma. It would relate to the leaves in the forest, not to the leaves in the Buddha's hand. ------------------ H: > That, too, would be a case of pseudo-science. Because, unless something is known as ultimate, it is going beyond what is known, or knowable to say it is ultimate. ------------------- Investigation into the world of planets, trees and living beings will never lead to the Eightfold Path. However, investigation into the world of namas and rupas will. The former world is one of illusion, and the latter, one of ultimate reality. That is as far as we need to use the term 'ultimate reality.' -------------------------- H: > The Suttas do not deny the body, nor do they deny the dependency of the mind on the body. -------------------------- They describe nama and rupa, and they deny the ultimate reality of anything else. Their frequent use of conventional designations (human body, sentient beings) is purely for communication purposes. --------------------------------- H: > But there are some statements in there that reject that anything knowable can be ultimate, such as from DN 09, the Potthapada Sutta: "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. His earlier perception of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of the dimension of nothingness. > > So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception." The peak of perception, or to rephrase that, the ultimate of what is knowable, is nothing, or nothingness. Beyond that is cessation, which is not known, or knowable. ------------------- Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the above simply a description of the higher jhanas? Jhanas are not Dhamma (the unique teaching of the Buddha); they experience various subtle objects, but they do not know the characteristics of namas and rupas. ------------------------------ H: > What else can be said about the reduction to ultimate namas and rupas? Again, from the Pothapada Sutta, the Buddha says this to Citta (no pun intended, I'm sure :-)) "In the same way, when there is a gross acquisition of a self... it's classified just as a gross acquisition of a self. When there is a mind-made acquisition of a self... When there is a formless acquisition of a self, it's not classified either as a gross acquisition of a self or as a mind-made acquisition of a self. It's classified just as a formless acquisition of a self." --------------- Sorry, I don't know the context of those lines, and so I can't even guess at their meaning. ------------------------------- H: > There are only these selves, Ken, and whatever is meant by "there are only namas and rupas" is so meant by one of these selves. One cannot think oneself away, one can only cease thinking. ------------------------------- Whatever that sutta was about, Herman, I think you have misunderstood it. The sphere of 'neither perception nor non-perception' is a state of jhana (a pleasant abiding) it is not a state of enlightenment. Ken H #60445 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:29 pm Subject: United in Harmony ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: These 6 Things Uniting in Harmony are to be Remembered : The Blessed Buddha once said: These six things are to be remembered in order to Unite any Community in Harmony: Which six? 1: Friendly Behaviour (metta-kaya-kamma=friendly bodily action) both in public and in private. 2: Friendly Speech (metta-vaci-kamma=friendly verbal action) both in public and in private. 3: Friendly Thought (metta-mano-kamma=friendly mental action) both in public and in private. 4: Sharing of Gains (sadharana-bhogi=common wealth) even down to any single lump of food. 5: Moral Harmony (sila-samannagato=uniform morality) all respect the same ethical rules. 6: Harmony in Views (ditthi-samannagato=uniform attitude) all share the same general views. These 6 things are to be considered & remembered both for individual & social Harmony... Source (edited extract): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya. The Book of Sixes 11: To be Remembered... [III: 288-9] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> #60446 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha & Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Matheesha - > > A couple other important things to include, I believe: Rebirth > and > kamma, and how to understand these in the context of anatta. The > classical > metaphor of lighting a new flame from an old one, and perhaps such > modern metaphors > as storm systems engendering subsequent storm systems and forest fires > jumping > across chasms. .... S: Good suggestions and comments as Nina said. Math, ages ago, I gave a similar talk in London too - but just to a Christian group. I believe I tried to start off stressing common areas such as dana and sila (in a common language) and then went on to indicate that I saw the Buddha's teachings more as a 'way of life' than as a 'religion' -- not looking elsewhere for one's refuge, but developing more understanding of one's life, whether a Christian, aetheist or whatever. In other words, one doesn't need to stop going to one's chruch or temple to learn and understand more about present dhammas, knowing more about what we take for ourselves and so on. After this, people may relax a little and I think it is a little easier to then discuss nitty-gritty dhammas themselves as being anatta. One doesn't even have to use the word 'anatta', but what is seen now is merely that which is seen, what is heard is merely sound and so on. What we take for experiencing a table or a person are ideas, formulated as a result of these different experiences. Anyway, I just think one needs to relate to the mixed background of the listeners who are not familiar with the terms and language we use. Also, I think it helps a lot to encourage Q & A and discussion, so people participate. Just a few ideas..... Pls let us know how it all goes. Metta, Sarah ===== #60447 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, > op 13-06-2006 14:43 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > My question is: how can the 'accumulation' phenomena be combined, be > united, with the principles of Abhidhamma. The principle that there > are four (no more no less) kind of paramattha dhamma.... > Hallo Nina, Scott, Larry, KenO, all First a general remark: this thread "Dependent Origination ... How about upadana?" has in fact three different topics: (1) what is upadana, how is it's relation with tanha, in Dependent Origination? (2) what are "accumulations"? (3) how absolute is the difference between paramattha dhamms and concepts? Everybody is free to jumpo from one of them to another. KenO, I don't know what to say about your stressing "faith" Perhaps your faith is going sometimes in another direction than my faith. Nina, I understand more or less your explanation. But 'lying dormant' is not enough anicca to me. And I also don't think upadana=lobha; then 8->9 of D.O. means lobha conditions more lobha; that should be silly, if correct. You are making it too easy, to vague, by saying that upadana is lobha. Scott, you said : "Might one instead consider "accumulation" to be what the various cetasikas which arise with citta tend towards?" I'm not sure if I understand the word "tend", even after looking it up in my english-dutch dictionary: tend in time or tend in space- dimension? "Toward" what? Maybe you are right, my intuition says you are, but how exactly? In fact I have no problems at all with the accumulations-idea. What I really think is that the distinguishment ultimate realities - concepts is not so absolute as some (in DSG) think, the difference is gradual; and accumulated groups of cetasikas are somewhere in between: that's a more elegant solution. That is the Middle Way. The distinguishment is not made so absolute by the Buddha, but in later texts. Long time I liked the "two truth" idea very much, as explained in Abhidhamma and as used by buddhists like Nagarjuna. It seemed very profound to me. But more and more I think Stephen Batchelor is right, when he states: "… The notion of Two Truths goes entirely against the grain of what the Buddha taught. Siddhattha Gotama's teaching is not founded on absolutes of any kind. He avoids the deeply ingrained assumption of much religious thought that reality is somehow split down the middle (God and Creation / Brahman and Maya / Nirvana and Samsara / Emptiness and Form). Ironically, of course, such divisions are blatantly dualistic – a position most Buddhists are supposed to be at pains to avoid. In one of the most succinct accounts of his enlightenment, the Buddha speaks of awakening to "dependent origination," a truth that is "hard to see" since it "goes against the worldly stream." (Ariyapariyesana Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 26, section 19). In modern parlance, his insight was counterintuitive. Why? because it went against two "streams": our instinctive mental habit to split reality into two, and the outward expression of that habit in religious doctrines such as the Two Truths. The Buddha awakened to a glittering plurality of endlessly arising and vanishing phenomena. No God created it; no Mind underpins it; no Unconditioned lies somewhere outside it. Ethics, meditation and wisdom are not founded on some absolute truth, but grow out of a careful examination of what causes suffering and what brings it to an end. Enlightenment, for the Buddha, entailed simply paying attention to the phenomenal flux of your own empirical experience. The doctrine of the Two Truths seems to have emerged fairly soon after the Buddha's death. It is not a later Mahayana idea; for it was already taken for granted in the early Abhidhamma. I suspect that it was the first step in the progressive brahminization of Buddhism in India. The Two Truth doctrine is strikingly reminiscent of the Upanishadic teaching that the world of appearances is an illusion (maya) that separates us from the transcendent, absolute reality of God (brahman). But that, of course, was the worldview the Buddha sought to abandon. He wanted to replace it with another way of seeing things altogether: the radical contingency of all existence, devoid of any intrinsic self-essence or God." (www.tricycle.com/blog/stephen_batchelor/2454-1.html) Metta Joop #60448 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta jwromeijn Hallo Matheesha, Sarah, Howard, all Matheesha, two suggestions: First I think 'anatta' should always be explained together with 'anicca' and 'dukkha' Seond, perhaps you can use the quote below This morning the postman brought a book I ordered by Amazon: 'Being no one; the self-model theory of subjectivity' by Thomas Metzinger. (MIT-Press, 2004) It has 700 pages and I only have read the backpage, a quote: "According Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience The phenomenal self, however, in not a thing but an ongoing process: it is the content of a "transparent self-model" In 'Being No One', Metzinger, a German philosopher, draws strongly on neuroscientific research to present a representationalist and functional analysis of what a consciously experienced first-person perspective actually is. Building a bridge between the humanities and the empirical sciences of the mind, he develops new conceptual toolkits and metaphors …" Quit the same description of anatta, in another discipline! Only not with a soteriological but wit a scientific aim. Metta Joop #60449 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:16 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 473- Non-Aversion/Adosa (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa) ***** Both aversion and non-aversion influence our bodily disposition. We read in the Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 129): * "… Absence of hate is the cause of youthfulness, for the man of no hate, not being burnt by the fire of hate, which brings wrinkles and grey hairs, remains young for a long time…" * The Atthasåliní states that the manifestation of non-aversion is agreeableness like the full moon. Non-aversion is agreeable both for oneself and for others, it conduces to harmonious living among people. Through aversion or hate a person loses his friends, and through non-aversion he acquires friends. We read in the same section of the Atthasåliní (129): * "… Absence of hate is the cause of the production of friends, for through love friends are obtained, not lost…" * ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60450 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta matheesha333 Hi Joop, Sarah, >J: Quit the same description of anatta, in another discipline! Only not > with a soteriological but wit a scientific aim. Joop, thanks for that. I hadnt really thought about bringing in the scientific take on it, but now I think I will. The original talk was supposed to be part of a string of talks on mysticism in religion,but the good Father told me that since nothing mystical could be found in buddhism they decided to go with Anatta, LOL! Sarah, thanks for reminding me to put them at ease and language issues. Quite insightful of you. I was invited for another talk - a short (bed time?) story from the scriptures, something less theoretical, more emotional. I decided not to do it as I found out I'm not that good when it comes to emotionalism in buddhism! with metta, Matheesha #60451 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? scottduncan2 Dear Joop, Thanks for considering the points I made earlier. J: "Scott, you said : "Might one instead consider "accumulation" to be what the various cetasikas which arise with citta tend towards?" I'm not sure if I understand the word "tend", even after looking it up in my english-dutch dictionary: tend in time or tend in space- dimension? "Toward" what?" To say, "an accumulation," seems to be to say there is such a thing; that is the word in noun-form. Perhaps "are prone to accumulate" would be better than "tend toward accumulation" in reference to cetasikas; accumulate more as verb, I guess. At any rate, I guess I'd take the focus off that which cetasikas are prone to, and place it back on the particular constellation which arises with citta. The natures of these various cetasikas in combination, in my opinion, would be the "content" of the "accumulation" at a given moment. Someone who knows this better ought to revise or correct this view. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #60452 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 6/14/06 2:23:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Math, ages ago, I gave a similar talk in London too - but just to a > Christian group. I believe I tried to start off stressing common areas > such as dana and sila (in a common language) ... =============================== An excellent idea, Sarah! And these can be related to the central theme of anatta, by pointing out how in both Buddhism and the theistic religions, generosity and morality involves a relinquishing of property and personal desires, sharing of worldly goods, freely giving of one's time and efforts, refraining from considering only one's own needs, and, more generally, releasing and diminishing one's clinging to self by opening up to the needs and rights of others, so that by a serious practice of dana and sila, not only are others helped and good done in the world, but also benefit in the form of spiritual uplift and joy accrues to oneself. (This might also be a natural place to insert some comments about the divine abidings, Matheesha.) The notions of dana, sila, metta, karuna, and mudita - and upekkha also, of course - all have pretty much exact correspondences in Christianity and Judaism and, no doubt, in Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, and so on. With metta, Howard #60453 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Phra Dhammadaro on rupa philofillet Hi all Another bit from the 1979 talks: "There are realities appearing now - it doesn't matter what they are - we're not fussy. What's the point of being fussy. It's appeared already." (Ph: I don't know if I'd say "it doesn't matter what they are" - there are consequences, of course. But it can't be changed, once they have arisen. There can be wise attention - that there can be.) "It's only when you think about it that fussiness sets in. It's a certain shape, and that shape conditions unpleasant feeling. And you don't like unpleasant feeling. So you'd like to see a different shape.So you think about the different shape. Or the same with sounds. At those moments it's just thinking, but there's no awareness. We're so caught up in the idea of the shape, or the sound. The idea of it. But there's no awareness of thinking at that moment. There can't be. We want to know all the details of what we see, and what we hear. And wanting to know the details, is not being aware." a bit later - "In fact we don't know rupa as well as we think we do, because we open our eyes and we say "oh that's rupa" but already there's thinking, already we know the shape, already we like or we don't like, already we are mixing up rupa with concepts - but still it is right to say when you open your eyes, rupa appears, only we haven't separated that rupa from all the other events, all the other realities." Ph: All so fast, all the accumulated ignorance. But knowing this is the first necessary step on the very long journey to knowing nama from rupa, the first vipasanna-nana. Phil #60455 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:53 am Subject: Three kinds of samadhi? philofillet Hi Nina I heard a talk from a few years ago in which Acharn Sujin was asked about 3 kinds of samadhi. Very interesting. She talked about how usually the characteristic of the ekaggata cetasika doesn't appear - it is one of the universals that arise with every citta, after all. But the characteristic of it can begin to appear, it can begin to function in a knowable way at times, for example when there is concetration on the virtues of the Buddha. So the "concentration" that we know in the conventional sense, it is this kannica(?) samadhi, when ekaggita cetasika is one-pointed again and again and again on a certain object, something like that. And then there is access concentration (upajara samadhi?) which, if I understood correctly, isn't only had by those who have reached one of the stages of enlightenment. This idea of ekagitta cetasika's characteristic becoming apparent seems important to me. There is no doubt that right concentration is taught as a condition for panna to arise, but I have always had trouble understanding how one moment of a universal cetasika would fulfill this role. But this idea of many, many moments of ekagitta arising one after another to give rise to a more recognizable form of concentration... When you have time, Nina, could I ask you to send any feedback that you post on this to me off list as well? (I am not finding time to read the messages.) Thanks in advance. Phil #60456 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-06-2006 01:09 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: That accumulation in javana series is what the Vism. referred to, and also the accumulation of preparations. -------- N: preparations? I would rather slowly study this difficult text with the Tiika when we come to it. ------- L: I would like to see some examples of any other kind of accumulation. I know the english word "accumulation" can refer to many things in a conventional sense but I wonder if it is used in that way in the commentaries. --------- N: I can quote from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas:, Ch 9: ------- N: end quote. I agree that the notion of accumulation is not easy. The javanacittas at this moment, while we are thinking about a text, are accumulating either kusala or akusala. The Atthasaalini uses the pali: cinati. When these cittas have fallen away, the defilements or wholesome qualities that accompanied them are accumulated: in the sense of going to the next citta. No storehouse. There is also accumulation of kamma, that has fallen away. We read about the brickwall that is built up. It is like a heaping up. ------- L: We could say that when one volitional consciousness conditions another volitional consciousness of the same kind through decisive support condition that is accumulation, ------ N: the translation volitional consciousness is not so clear. Kusala citta or akusala citta is probably meant. -------- L: but the idea behind accumulation isn't so much an establishing of a pattern or habit, as it is that accumulation is a kind of building up of energy that conditions a more powerful volitional consciousness with serious consequences. This has an application in bhavana. We hear the same thing over and over, then one day we really hear it. [By 'hear' I mean 'understand'.] --------- N: We have to listen again and again and then it may click. It shows that there is accumulation of understanding, although one may not notice it. Nina. #60457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wissenschaftslehre? Conditions. nilovg Dear Colette, good to see you. op 13-06-2006 21:49 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: How's trix? ------------ N: our queen Beatrix is amazing, a great example for us all. She does not think of herself. --------- Be that as it may I look forward to reading: "THE CONDITIONALITY OF LIFE IN THE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS..." -------- N: I am glad you are interested. Just now on our Visuddhimagga thread Larry and I deal with conditions, it may interest you. Nina. #60458 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three kinds of samadhi? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Nina) - In a message dated 6/14/06 9:55:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Nina > > I heard a talk from a few years ago in which Acharn Sujin was > asked about 3 kinds of samadhi. Very interesting. She talked about > how usually the characteristic of the ekaggata cetasika doesn't > appear - it is one of the universals that arise with every citta, > after all. But the characteristic of it can begin to appear, it can > begin to function in a knowable way at times, for example when there > is concetration on the virtues of the Buddha. So the "concentration" > that we know in the conventional sense, it is this kannica(?) > samadhi, when ekaggita cetasika is one-pointed again and again and > again on a certain object, something like that. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I've tried to make sense of the notion of concentration at a single "mind moment". In any single mindstate, there cannot be wandering of mind. There is exactly one object of awareness then. So what can it mean to be "concentrated" on it during a single mindstate? At first thought, then, it seems that concentration as a feature of experience is a multi-mindstate event: the staying with "the same" object. Thinking this way, when the mind flits from object to object, that is when we can say that concentration is weak. So, from this perspective, to make sense of a one-pointedness cetasika, a universal cetasika that is present on all occasions, one might think of it as an "impulse to continue" with the same object as object of awareness at subsequent moments. When that impulse is weak, the object is less likely to repeat, and when it is very strong, it is very likely to repeat. But I think this view needs to be fine tuned a bit. Further consideration seems shows that it is not really so much a matter of repetition of the same *object* - for there usually is a constant switching from sense door to sense door, which obviously involves change of object. Perhaps the "impulse to continue" is less an impulse to continue with the same *object* than an impulse for ones *attention* to be repeatedly drawn to that "same" object when it does arise. Actually, I think that is the more likely scenario, that concentration is tied to *attention*, and that ekagatta cetasika is the impulse, more or less strong, to primarily and repeatedly direct attention to the same object or type of object. This perspective relates the conventional notion of concentration (for example concentrating on the breath or a manta or a flame or a bodily motion, position, or sensation) to what Abhidhamma points to in speaking of "ekagatta cetasika". An impulse (of some strength or other) to continue attention to a particular object or type of object in subsequent mindstates will arise in every mindstate, but its effect is a multi-mindstate one. A weak impulse has little effect, and a strong impulse has great effect. (Note: By an "impulse to continue" I am NOT referring to the mere conventional "desire to concentrate" on something or other, though that surely bears a relation.) --------------------------------------------------- > > And then there is access concentration (upajara samadhi?) which, > if I understood correctly, isn't only had by those who have reached > one of the stages of enlightenment. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not. Anyone, it seems to me, who meditates regularly for a period of time, will become acquainted with access concentration. ------------------------------------------------- > > This idea of ekagitta cetasika's characteristic becoming apparent > seems important to me. There is no doubt that right concentration is > taught as a condition for panna to arise, but I have always had > trouble understanding how one moment of a universal cetasika would > fulfill this role. But this idea of many, many moments of ekagitta > arising one after another to give rise to a more recognizable form > of concentration... ------------------------------------------- Howard: Your thinking here is along similar lines, I think, to mine. ------------------------------------------ > > When you have time, Nina, could I ask you to send any feedback > that you post on this to me off list as well? (I am not finding time > to read the messages.) Thanks in advance. > > Phil > ==================== With metta, Howard #60459 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:30 am Subject: Dana in Judaism/Sarah & Matheesha (Re: [dsg] Anatta) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah, Matheesha, and all - I think that the article at http://home.aol.com/lazera/tzedaka.htm may be of interest because of the many points of similarity of teaachings of the Buddha. (I think of the importance of intention as regards morality, for example.) No doubt one will find much the same in other religions as well. With metta, Howard #60460 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? nilovg Dear Scott, op 14-06-2006 14:19 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: At any rate, I guess I'd take the focus off that which cetasikas are prone to, and place it back on the particular constellation which arises with citta. The natures of these various cetasikas in combination, in my opinion, would be the "content" of the "accumulation" at a given moment. -------- N: Akusala cetasikas or sobhana cetasikas accumulate during the moments of javana. At the moment kusala citta arises and is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, all these mental phenomena support one another. Each moment of kusala citta is different, it can never be the same. The accompanying cetasikas also have different intensities. In short, it is very hard to know exactly how it all works. Nina. #60461 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three kinds of samadhi? nilovg Hi Phil, op 14-06-2006 15:53 schreef Phil op philco777@...: I heard a talk from a few years ago in which Acharn Sujin was asked about 3 kinds of samadhi. .... the characteristic of it can begin to appear, it can begin to function in a knowable way at times, for example when there is concetration on the virtues of the Buddha. So the "concentration" that we know in the conventional sense, it is this kannica(?) samadhi, when ekaggita cetasika is one-pointed again and again and again on a certain object, something like that. ------ N: Khanika samaadhi: momentary concentration ---------- Ph: And then there is access concentration (upajara samadhi?) which, if I understood correctly, isn't only had by those who have reached one of the stages of enlightenment. ------- N: upacara samaadhi, access concentration, this is for those who develop jhana. Concentration on the meditation subject is more advanced, the hindrances are suppressed. Apana samaadhi is attainment concentration, or jhaana. You mention enlightenment. When this is attained, the accompanying concentration is strong, it has the strength of jhaana. It will happen because of conditions. ------- Ph: This idea of ekagitta cetasika's characteristic becoming apparent seems important to me. There is no doubt that right concentration is taught as a condition for panna to arise, but I have always had trouble understanding how one moment of a universal cetasika would fulfill this role. But this idea of many, many moments of ekagitta arising one after another to give rise to a more recognizable form of concentration... ------- N: You say: right concentration is taught as a condition for panna to arise, but this is ekaggata cetasika that is a factor of the eightfold Path, sammaa samaadhi. It has to accompany sammaa di.t.thi. It is not a matter of thinking: will concentration become more apparent? When right understanding of nama or rupa is being developed, right concentrration performs its function already. It is a universal cetasika, but here it accompanies kusala citta with paññaa and thus it is also kusala. As Kh Sujin reminds us: when we wonder or think, there is just thinking, no development at this moment of what appears. Nina. #60462 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? nilovg Hallo Joop, you have good points here. op 14-06-2006 09:54 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: First a general remark: this thread "Dependent Origination ... How about upadana?" has in fact three different topics: (1) what is upadana, how is it's relation with tanha, in Dependent Origination? (2) what are "accumulations"? (3) how absolute is the difference between paramattha dhamms and concepts? Everybody is free to jumpo from one of them to another. Nina, I understand more or less your explanation. But 'lying dormant' is not enough anicca to me. -------- N: I see your point. Perhaps my post to Larry may clarify some points. It lies dormant but it changes also. New accumulations are added, and by enlightenment they are subsequently eradicated. ------- J: And I also don't think upadana=lobha; then 8->9 of D.O. means lobha conditions more lobha; that should be silly, if correct. You are making it too easy, to vague, by saying that upadana is lobha. -------- N: There are fiftytwo cetasikas, not more. What is upadana? It is not ruupa, it is not citta, it is cetasika. But it takes different forms and intensities, and so different names are given. Another example: anger, hatred, annoyance, uneasiness, aversion, enmity: they are all forms of aversion, dislike of an object. They are dosa cetasika. --------- J: What I really think is that the distinguishment ultimate realities - concepts is not so absolute as some (in DSG) think, the difference is gradual; and accumulated groups of cetasikas are somewhere in between: that's a more elegant solution. That is the Middle Way. -------- N: You may wonder whey the Abhidhamma teaches about citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbbaana, absolute realities, different from concepts? Leaving aside nibbaana, at this moment citta, cetasika and ruupa can appear to the citta with awareness, they have characteristics that can be experienced without the need for names, without the need to think about them. Their characteristics are unalterable. Lobha is always lobha, it has its own specific characteristic. You may name it clinging, or craving, that shows different intensities, but they are still lobha, attachment to or like of an object. You may use the names anger, aversion, dislike, but these only show different shades of dosa. Dosa is dosa it cannot be changed into lobha. When you see this principle you will know that an absolute reality is not a concept. It is important to know the difference, it is necessary for the development of vipassanaa. The Abhidhamma and vipassanaa go together, they are closely connected. Nina. #60463 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadaro on rupa nilovg Hi Phil thank you. Does Azita remember these talks? It is good to know how often there is no awareness, only what we take for awareness. Or there is too much trying to be aware, trying to know. It is not a matter of trying to separate visible object from other realities. Nina. op 14-06-2006 15:42 schreef Phil op philco777@...: "In fact we don't know rupa as well as we think we do, because we open our eyes and we say "oh that's rupa" but already there's thinking, already we know the shape, already we like or we don't like, already we are mixing up rupa with concepts - but still it is right to say when you open your eyes, rupa appears, only we haven't separated that rupa from all the other events, all the other realities." #60464 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 11. nilovg Dear Friends, This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: Commentary to The Three Fires. ****** Nina. #60465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:58 am Subject: Re: Dana in Judaism/Sarah & Matheesha (Re: [dsg] Anatta) nilovg Hi Howard, I rejoiced in the article. Especially: N: You said: I think of the importance of intention as regards morality, for example. I just read in the Tiika Vis. that daana is the purified cetanaa, intention. Nina. op 14-06-2006 17:30 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: I think that the article at http://home.aol.com/lazera/tzedaka.htm may be of interest because of the many points of similarity of teaachings of the Buddha. (I think of the importance of intention as regards morality, for example.) No doubt one will find much the same in other religions as well. #60466 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:14 am Subject: Re: Dana in Judaism/Sarah & Matheesha (Re: [dsg] Anatta) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/14/06 2:59:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I rejoiced in the article. > ======================= Thank you, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard #60467 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:42 pm Subject: Curing Lethargy and Laziness ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to cure the dull, slow, sluggish & heavy Lethargy & Laziness! In these days, Lethargy-&-Laziness may commonly be induced by self-destructive behaviour such as: Alcohol, drugs, dope, pills, marihuana, sniffing, over-eating, excessive masturbation and night-living. Such often life-long chemical or behavioural causes of Lethargy-&-Laziness should be eradicated... As long as this is not achieved one remains a phlegmatic & apathetic zombie, drifting downwards!!! Go straight & come clean! Addiction is pain! Freedom is bliss! Chemical calm is neither cool nor clear! First priority: Noticing Lethargy-&-Laziness (thina-middha) emerge can make it evaporate: Herein, Bhikkhus, when Lethargy-&-Laziness is present in him, the bhikkhu notes & understands: There is Lethargy-&-Laziness in me, and when Lethargy-&-Laziness is absent, he notes & understands: There is no Lethargy-&-Laziness in me. He also understands how unarisen Lethargy-&-Laziness arises. He understands how to leave behind any arisen Lethargy-&-Laziness, and he understands how left Lethargy-&-Laziness will not arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Lethargy-&-Laziness arise? There are boredom, apathy, tiredness, lazy stretching of the body, heavy drowsiness after meals, mental sluggishness, frequently giving irrational & unwise attention to these mental states, this is the feeding cause of the arising of unarisen Lethargy-&-Laziness, and the feeding cause of consolidation and deepening of Lethargy-&-Laziness, that already has emerged. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Lethargy-&-Laziness cease? There are the events of Initiative, of Launching into Effort, and of tenaciously Enduring Persistence, frequently giving rational & wise attention to these three mental elements, is the starving cause for the non-arising of unarisen Lethargy-&-Laziness, and the starving cause for the arousing and stirring of Lethargy-&-Laziness, that has already emerged. SN 46:51 The Supreme Ideal: Before the Buddha sat down to meditate in order to attain enlightenment, he made this determination: May just all flesh and blood of this body dry up into a stiff frame of only bones, tendons and skin... Not before having achieved, what can be achieved by manly strength, manly power, manly energy, will I rise from this seat... MN 70 Some advantageous reflections to return to whenever Laziness threatens: How to stimulate the mind: How does one stimulate the mind at a time when it needs stimulation? If due to slowness of understanding or due to not having yet reached the happiness of tranquillity, one's mind is dull, then one should rouse it through reflecting on the eight objects stirring urgency. These eight are: birth, decay, disease & death; the suffering in the hell, demon, ghost & animal world; the suffering in the past rooted in the round of existence; the suffering of the future rooted in the round of existence; the suffering of the present rooted in the pursuit & search for food and living. Vism. IV,63 Perceiving the suffering in impermanence: In a bhikkhu, who is used to see the suffering in impermanence and who frequently reflects on this, there will be established in him such an acute sense of the danger in laziness, apathy, inactivity and lethargy, as if he were threatened by a mad murderer with drawn sword. AN 7:46 Lethargy-&-Laziness is an inner mental Prison: Just as when a man has been forced into prison is Lethargy-&-Laziness, but later when he gets released from this (inner) prison, then he is safe, fearing no loss of property. And at that good he rejoices, and is glad at heart... Such is the breaking out of Lethargy-&-Laziness... Another person has been kept in jail during a festival day, and so could see none of the shows. When people say: Oh, how fun was this festival! He will remain shy, mute and silent. Why? Because he did not enjoy any festival himself... Similarly is prison of Lethargy-&-Laziness... Another person that once had been in jail on a festival day. But when freed and celebrating the festival on a later occasion, he looks back: Before due to my careless laziness, I was in prison on that day & could not enjoy this festival. Now I shall therefore be Alert & Careful. Since he remains thus Alert & Careful no detrimental state can overcome his mind. Having enjoyed the festival, he exclaims: Oh, what a fun festival it was! Such is the freedom from Lethargy-&-Laziness... The remembrance of Death: To-day the effort should be made, Who knows if Death comes tomorrow? MN 131 Easy is the shameless life now. Easy is it to be bold, retaliating, lazy, uninformed & wrong-viewed. Dhammapada 244 Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you lazy, lead you astray and dominate you. Sutta Nipata II, 10 Carefulness is the way to the Deathless. Carelessness is the way to death. The Careful die not. The Careless are as if already dead. Dhammapada 21 How to get to the opposite good mental state: Enthusiastic Energy (Viriya) see here: Enthusiastic is Energy: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm Arousal Get Up and Going: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Arousal_Get_Up_and_Going.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> #60468 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:25 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 474- Non-Aversion/Adosa (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa) ***** Non-aversion accompanies each kusala citta, it performs its function of destroying vexation while we apply ourselves to dåna, observe síla, develop calm or insight. Dåna is an act of kindness. When we are giving a gift with kusala citta we show kindness. When there is non-aversion there must also be non-attachment which performs its function of detachment from the object. When we observe síla there is non-aversion accompanying the kusala citta. When we abstain from akusala kamma which harms both ourselves and others we show an act of kindness. The Atthasåliní (in the same section) states: * "Good-will is that which does not ruin one’s own or another’s bodily or mental happiness, worldly or future advantage and good report." * ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60469 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Ken H, Matheesha, Howard, Kel, Steve, Nina & all, Thanks for all your comments which have helped me reflect more and check other texts in some detail. I just have a little more to add on the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta and the question about magga (path) and phala (fruition) consciousness following immediately as questioned in this connection. First, I'd like to stress that it is not only in the commentaries and Abhidhamma that it's spelled out that the immediate result of path consciousness follows as in Vism. XX11,15" "Immediately next to that knowledge (stream-entry path consciousness), however, there arise either two or three fruition consciousnesses, which are its result." In the Patisambhidamagga, Khuddaka Nikkaya it's also made clear. There is a section (1, XXX11) which starts with a discussion of the question on 'How is it that understanding of cutting off of cankers due to pureness of non-distraction is knowledge of concentration with immediate [result=phala]. We've had many discussions about the list of 14 recipients in the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta The same phrase 'sotaapattiphalasacchakiriyaaya pa.tipanno (practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer) can be found in many other contexts. The texts usually differentiate between the person 'established in the fruition' or 'standing in the fruit' (phala .thitaa) and the one 'practising for the realization of the fruit', as in AN8s, 59. Here as Ken H suggests, the one 'practising for the realization of the fruit' refers to the stage of the magga citta of the sotapanna etc, and the one 'standing in the fruit' to the 'establishment' of the following phala cittas, i.e. 'The four standing in the fruit'(cattaaro ca phala .thitaa). So, here, I believe, 'the stream-enterer and one practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry' etc are in fact the 8 kinds of ariyans, 'the upright Sangha'as B.Bodhi's note confirms. Sometimes, the language makes it difficult to appreciate this as in the text Steve gave before (#29223) which Kel recently gave us a link to: Steve: >In the Puggala-Pannatti there is this > --- 47. What sort of person is a "stream-attainer", and what sort of person is one striving for realization of the fruition stage? A person who is working for putting away the three fetters is one working for the realization of the fruition stage of a "stream- attainer"; The person whose three fetters have been put away is said to be a "stream-attainer." --- <..> Pali>> Katamo ca puggalo sotaapanno sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno? Ti.n.na.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya pa.tipanno puggalo sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno. Yassa puggalassa tii.ni sa.myojanaani pahiinaani- aya.m vuccati puggalo "sotaapanno". <...> .... S: I think we can read these references to the 'practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer' according to the summary of the note to the commentaries which Nanamoli/Bodhi give to the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta: "MA and MT explain that this term (S: i.e. sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno) can be loosely extended to include even a lay follower who has gone for refuge to the Triple Gem, as well as lay people and monks intent on fulfilling the moral training and the practice of concentration and insight. In the strict technical sense it refers only to those possessing the supramundane path of stream-entry." S: (It would be useful to see more detail from these commentary notes in due course!) Also, see Nina's reply to Steve in #29236 ****** S: In another passage in the Puggala Pannatti (transl. as 'Designation of Human Types' , PTS) in the same section as the quote Steve gave (in Div. of Human Types by One), it also differentiates between the 'person practising the fruition stage of a stream-attainer' and the same one 'established in the fruition': "What sort of person is 'one conforming to the Norm' (dhamaanusaari)? The faculty of insight of a person proceeding to realise the fruition stage of 'stream-attaining' develops to a large extent; he cultivates the Noble Path (ariya magga) carrying with it insight, preceded by insight - this sort of person is said to be one conforming to the Norm. Such a person practising the fruition stage of a stream-attainer is one conforming to the Norm, while the same person established in the fruition is one who has won vision. (sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno puggala dhammaanusaari phala .thiti di.t.thipputto)" .... S: The same is said for the saddhaanusari, the faith follower. Usually, I believe the dhamaanusaari and sadhaanusaari are included in the sevenfold grouping of ariyan disciples. I take the first person 'practising the fruition stage' here to refer to the supramundane path and perhaps also to the insight developed close to the supramundane path when the bojjangas (enlightenment factors) are being fulfilled and reference can be made to the 'Noble Path'. I take the second person in this quote, the one 'established in the fruition' to refer to the attainment of supramundane fruition of the sotapanna. Clearly, once the 'vision' has been won, the sotapanna is 'established'. In terms of the offerings discussed in the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta, the greater merit is to the sotapanna, already 'established in the fruit' as compared to the one who is close to enlightenment or 'in a strict technical sense', the one who has fully realized the ariyan path (attained the magga cittas), but not yet the fruition (phala cittas)! The same applies to the other ariyan stages. Thanks again to all for helping me to consider further. Of course, I welcome any further reflections. Metta, Sarah ======= #60470 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta nilovg Hi Matheesha, what about Jaataka stories? Other religions may appreciate. They are so good for application in daily life. If you would like to use them, I can find Jaatakas in Kh. Sujin's book on the Perfections. Nina. op 14-06-2006 12:54 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: I was invited for another talk - a short (bed time?) story from the scriptures, something less theoretical, more emotional. #60471 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:05 am Subject: moving to hawaii - looking for a room leoaive Hi I am moving to Hawaii at the end of this month. I am looking for a room in Honolulu. If someone have a room available from July,1, please let me know. Leo #60472 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jwromeijn Hallo Nina, all One more time I will say something about one topic we have been discussing in this thread I started some weeks ago. For the rest either we agree or we can best agree to disagree. My starting question was and still is about that the Buddha says: "craving conditions upadana" or "dependent on craving arises grasping". What is the difference - because there must be - between tanha and upadana? I don't accept the idea that 'upadana' is just 'more tanha': there must be not only a quantitative but also a qualitative difference between these two nidana's of D.O.! And - second question - why does 'tanha' (with another name) occur on the list of cetasikas and 'upadana' does not? FIRST QUESTION The best answer about the difference I have found is "8 => 9. Craving as a determinant for clinging: As desire becomes stronger it develops into clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation, creating AN ATTITUDE TOWARD AND EVALUATION OF THE OBJECT OF DESIRE (with vibhavatanha, a negative evaluation will be formed). A fixed position is adopted towards things: if there is attraction it precipitates a binding effect, an identification with the object of attraction. Whatever is connected with that object seems to be good. When there is repulsion, the object of that repulsion seems to affront the self. Any adopted position towards these things tends to reinforce clinging, which will be directed toward, and in turn reinforce the value of: Sense objects (kama); Ideas and beliefs (ditthi); Systems, models, practices and so on (silavatta); The belief in a self (attavada) to either attain or be thwarted from its desires." (capitals me) Source: "Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality" By P. A. Payutto Translated from the Thai by Bruce Evans www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosopy/thera (A special reason I liked this text it that Payutto gives also information about the two ways D.O. can be applied: not only the 'three lifetime' application but also the one 'within one lifetime') Do you accept this qualitative difference, Nina? SECOND QUESTION N: "There are fiftytwo cetasikas, not more. What is upadana? It is not ruupa, it is not citta, it is cetasika. " J: Yes, of course it must be. I agree that 'upadana' must be, in the Abhidhamma system, a cetasika. And why can there not be added a cetasika to the list of 52? When we look at the Dhammasangani, the list was shorter than 52, there has been added already. So, Nina, what do you prefer: - EITHER there must be added a cetasika 'upadana' to the list of cetasikas - OR the Abhidhamma can not be completely used to 'translate' the conventional language the Buddha used in the Suttas when teaching D.O. ? Metta Joop #60473 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- ..Why Wait if You Can Now? jonoabb Hi Tep indriyabala wrote: >Hi Jon, - > >Let's wrap up this thread today, please. > > Sorry I haven't been able to meet your deadline ;-)) I'm happy to conclude this thread if you'd rather not continue. But I wouldn't consider it wrapped up in the sense of coming to a mutually agreed conclusion. Each post seems to throw up new misunderstandings ;-)) >>Jon: >>I feel I am somehow missing the point of what you are saying. It >>might help if you could give an example of how abstaining from lying, >>killing, etc. is something that we can do now .... >> >> > >Tep: If we cannot abstain from telling a lie and killing we would have >been in big troubles by now (perhaps in a jail?). Abstaining from >lying, for example, is possible because one is aware before giving a >speech that is not truthful, and he makes an effort to restrain >himself from wrong verbal actions. To be aware before saying something >bad is not possible for a person who has no sati, or no shame. >Similarly, you won't hurt anyone (let alone killing) because you are >normally aware of dosa when it arises, and make an effort to calm down >and eliminate it. > > You are saying that the fact that we manage to abstain from killing or lying for the most part supports the idea that kusala can be made to arise at will or at a time of our choosing. Yes, we do manage to a reasonable degree to abstain from killing or lying (well, for periods of time, anyway), but I don't see how this supports the idea that kusala can be made to arise at will or at a time of our choosing. As I understand it, abstain from killing and lying can only occur when the inclination to kill or tell a lie actually occurs. It seems to me we have no idea when such an inclination might next arise, or what might be its object, or how strong it might be, or how we will react to it. >>Jon: >>(my difficulty is, I thought we had agreed that this kind of kusala >>can only arise when there is the inclination to do one of these acts >>in the first place) >> >Tep: The inclination to do kusala "in the first place" is conditioned >by shame and fear of wrongdoing [MN 39], and it is followed through by >constantly arousing a desire(chanda) and persistence (viriya)[see DN >22]. > I was referring to the inclination to do *akusala* acts (not kusala). Sorry if that was not clear. >"Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & >from idle chatter: This is called right speech. >"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses >persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the >non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... >for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have >arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have >not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, >plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have >arisen: This is called right effort. [DN 22] >............................ > >Tep: If akusala cannot be abstained from, and kusala cannot be >developed and conditioned to arise at will such as sated in DN 22 >above, the Buddha would not have taught us to abstain from bad >conducts and develop the ten good conducts(kusalas) in AN X.176. > > I agree that akusala can be abstained from, and kusala can be developed and conditioned to arise. But I do not see anything in the DN 22 passage that says this can happen 'at will'. >>Jon: >>I agree that in the case of kindness and generosity there are plenty >>of opportunities that arise in a day, and as you say, why wait? But >>the fact remains that not much kindness or generosity actually arises. >>Yes, it is good to be reminded of the value of there being more >>kindness and generosity in our day, but can it be forced? or, should I >>say, is the forced version the real thing (is it actually kusala)? >> > >Tep: Generosity arises in the heart of a kind person because of a >condition, e.g. listening to the news about huricane victims. I don't >understand your "forced" kindness, or "forced" generosity. A kind >person looks for opportunities to help! When you see someone in need >of help and you immediately offer the needed help,that is not forced >kindness. When a friend or a relative asks for money and you give it >with a smile, out of kindness, that's not forced. For a stingy person >who does not know or does not believe in giving, of course he will not >give. > >A person who is aware of the benefits of siila is committed to >self-restraint (indriya-samvara) all the time. He is heedful. He does >not wait for siila to arise whenever it may arises. He maintains the >ten kusala kammapatha in his heart all the time! If this is not the >real kusala, then what is it? > > I would say there is much, much more akusala in a day than kusala. Not strong aksuala perhaps but akusala nevertheless bubbling away in the background much of the time: annoyance, comparing ourself with others, evaluating others and their actions, likes and dislikes, worry and anxiety, concern about family members, bodily discomfort accompanied by aversion, attachment, interest in the news or sport, the list is endless. Granted that none of this may involve breaches of sila, but nevertheless at such times there is no kusala (although there may be moments of kusala in between the aksuala). >Generosity never arises in the mind of an uninstructed stingy person, >who has no saddha in 'dana'. He doesn't believe in the kusala 'vipaka' >of dana. Generosity and kindness can be developed by close association >with (and seeing dana actions of) a generous person (an "admirable >friend"), for example. > >"When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable >comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence >aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, and for taking on >skillful mental qualities -- steadfast, solid in his effort, not >shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. >[AN IX.1] > > >I consider the above reply as "my last words" on this suject of >discussion. > > Thanks for the interesting discussion, Tep. Sorry that we can't quite reach an agreed conclusion. Jon #60474 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you (again). I very much appreciate the time you take to reply and instruct! N: "Akusala cetasikas or sobhana cetasikas accumulate during the moments of javana. At the moment kusala citta arises and is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, all these mental phenomena support one another. Each moment of kusala citta is different, it can never be the same. The accompanying cetasikas also have different intensities. In short, it is very hard to know exactly how it all works." The moments of javana are quite significant, aren't they? I guess, in the instantaneous life of a given "though moment," the javana cittas are like our own individual lifetime full of actions. I think I know what I mean here, but I'm often not clear. And yes, it is very hard to know exactly how it all works. Sincerely, Scott. #60475 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >>As regards the existence or otherwise of these 'accumulated tendencies' >>wholesome and unwholesome, this is beyond or ability to prove or >>disprove, as they are said to lie latent in the consciousness (except to >>the very limited extent that they manifest at any given moment). But we >>can of course see if the hypothesis fits with our (present moment) >>experience of things. What would be your perception on this? >> >> > >I agree with your last paragraph. My perception is necessarily limited >to what is consciously available, and what lies latent or dormant is >beyond my ability to be conscious of. And I like the idea of matching >hypotheses with data. > > It is of course true that what lies latent or dormant is beyond our ability to be conscious of and thus to verify (or for that matter to disprove). However, our inability to verify or disprove something does not make the possibility of that something being the way things truly are any less likely. Furthermore, we are bound to hold views on matters such as why we act the way we do, whether we are conscious of what those views are or not, and I think you'll find that we hold views on all sorts of things that we are not able to verify or disprove. >The brain is said to have 100 billion neurons, with each neuron having >upto 10,000 connections to other neurons. Given that every neuron can >be in at least two states, firing or not-firing, and that neural >connections change with neural events, we can come to appreciate that >the brain/mind is complex beyond anything conceivable. It is quite >marvelous to think that the All of experience somehow originates in >all that complexity in a few pounds of goo!! > > I think the idea of experience originating in the brain is one area where science and the Dhamma are very far apart (not that I really know anything about the scientific view on this ;-)). Jon #60476 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Steve, Kel, Matheesha & all, I had meant in my earlier comments to also make reference to Scott's recent post #60374 in which he quotes from the same sutta in AN 8s on the 8 ariyans and also adds BB's note from his anthology (which we don't have, btw, so I was interested to see this note, thx). Also, Steve's post #29640 in which he quotes from SN48:18 'Practising' is very relevant to the discussion because it also indicates the 'pecking order': >"Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of Faith/energy/mindfulness/concentration and wisdom. One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an Arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is practicing for the fruit of Arahantship;If still weaker,one is a non-returner etc /snip/ if still weaker, one is a stream-enterer; if still weaker, one is practicing for the realization of the fruit of stream entry. But Bhikhhus, I say that for one in whom these five faculties are completely and totally absent is `an outsider, one who stands in the faction of worldlings" Com.> In this sutta the faculties are exclusively supramundane. ..... S: B.Bodhi gives a reference to R.Gethin's 'The Buddhist Path to Awakening', pp 126ff. Steve, if you haven't read this chapter, I think you'd find it interesting. It's on this same topic with a lot of detailed references, starting with this same sutta and including a detailed discussion of whether the dhammaanusaarin and saddhaanusaarin only refer to ariyans, incorporating some discussion of cula-sotapannas and more! He suggests there is genral agreement in the various traditions that the and saddhaanusaarin 'are standing upon or have just gained the path of stream-attainment', and that the fruit follows immediately upon the path moment. He suggests that in certain Nikaya passages the dhammaanusaarin and saddhaanusaarin 'are understood to indicate persons close to or approaching stream-attainment'. Steve, I'll also raise some of these details again in Bangkok if I have a chance as well. Kel & Matheesha, without going into detail, Gethin suggests the cula-sotapanna 'marks a definite beginning of the process that culminates in the path of stream-attainment proper' and that 'loosely speaking, the path of stream-attainment extends from the conclusion of the fourth purification ('knowledge that causes one to pass beyond doubt') up to the seventh purification ('by knowledge and seeing'). He also suggests that like in the case of the saddaanusaarin and dhammaanusaarin, the distinction between the cula-sotapanna and full sotapanna is 'glossed over in the Nikaya notion' of these terms. I'll leave it there... Metta, Sarah p.s Scott - I see the Oilers are 'hanging in' there:-). ================ #60477 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:33 am Subject: Visuddhimagga ChXVII, 82, 83 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga ChXVII, 82, 83. Proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. Intro: As we have seen, the first condition classified under decisive support-condition is object decisive support-condition. The second condition classified under decisive support-condition is proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. This condition is similar to proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya). Both conditions pertain to each preceding citta which conditions the succeeding citta without any interval. Thus, the realities involved in these two kinds of condition are the same. However, a distinction between these two conditions has to be made. The teaching of proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya paccaya, emphasizes the aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force in the relationship between the conditioning reality, the preceding citta, and the conditioned reality, the succeeding citta. ------- Text Vis. 82: (b) Also 'proximate-decisive-support condition' is set forth without differentiating it from the proximity condition in the way beginning, 'Any preceding profitable aggregates are condition, as decisive-support condition, for any succeeding aggregates' (P.tn.1,165). But in the exposition there is a distinction, because in the exposition of the schedule (maatikaanikkhepa) they are given as proximity in the way beginning, 'Eye-consciousness element and the states associated therewith are a condition, as proximity condition, for mind element and for the states associated therewith' (P.tn.1,2) and as decisive support in the way beginning, 'Any preceding profitable states are a condition as decisive-support condition, for any succeeding profitable states' (P.tn.1,4), though it comes to the same thing as regards the meaning. ------- N: The Tiika states that in the case of proximity condition, the ŒPa.t.thaana² refers to citta and cetasikas that are indeterminate, avyaakata. Eye-consciousness is vipaakacitta and this conditions the following mind-element, receiving-consciousness, by way of proximity-condition. They are both indeterminate, neither kusala nor akusala. In the case of decisive-support condition, it refers to kusala citta that conditions the succeeding kusala citta. The ŒPa.t.thaana¹ illustrates this further by mentioning: ŒAdaptation (anuloma) to change-of-lineage (gotrabhuu)... change of lineage to Path by strong dependence-condition.¹ In the process during which enlightenment occurs, adaptation is a powerful condition for the following change-of-lineage and this again for Path-consciousness. Change-of-lineage applies to stream-enterers. In the ŒPa.t.thaana¹ the same is said for those who attain the higher Paths, but the term cleansing' (vodaana) is used instead of change-of-lineage. ------- Text Vis.: Nevertheless, 'proximity' may be understood as the ability to cause the occurrence of an appropriate conscious arising proximate (next) to itself, and 'decisive-support' as the preceding consciousness's cogency in the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses. -------- Text Vis. 83. For while in the cases of root-cause and other such conditions consciousness can arise actually without any of those conditions, there is no arising of consciousness without a proximity consciousness [to precede it], so this is a cogent condition. Their difference, then, may be understood in this way: 'proximity condition' arouses an appropriate consciousness proximate (next) to itself, while 'proximity-decisive-support condition' is a cogent reason. -------- N: The Tiika adds that herewith the occurrence of proximity-decisive-support condition has been explained. Proximity-decisive-support condition is a strong condition (balava paccaya) pertaining to the preceding citta that conditions the arising of the succeeding citta. -------- Conclusion: The pa.tisandhi-citta, for example, is a cogent reason for the succeeding bhavanga-citta, so that life can continue. If the preceding citta would not be a powerful inducement for the arising of the succeeding citta, there could not be a continuous succession of cittas, even at this moment. The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the pa.tisandhi-citta. The bhavanga-citta which succeeds the pa.tisandhi-citta in the case of different kinds of births is in conformity with the paìisandhi-citta. Beings are born with different potentialities, different capabilities, and these are carried on to the succeeding bhavanga-citta and then to the following cittas which arise in succession throughout life. In between the processes of cittas there are bhavanga-cittas. Cittas which arise in a process of cittas do so according to a fixed order (niyama) which cannot be changed. Each citta which arises falls away immediately, but it has a conditioning force which is a powerful inducement for the arising of the succeeding citta without any interval.Thus, good and bad qualities can be carried on from moment to moment, they can be accumulated. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death there are conditions for each citta to be succeeded by the next citta. ******* Nina. #60478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for the very careful selection and study of texts on 'practising for the realization of the fruit' and the one 'standing in the fruit' to the 'establishment' of the following phala cittas, i.e. 'The four standing in the fruit'(cattaaro ca phala.thitaa). The Pali .thita makes the difference very clear. Nina. op 15-06-2006 09:37 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: The same phrase 'sotaapattiphalasacchakiriyaaya pa.tipanno (practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer) can be found in many other contexts. The texts usually differentiate between the person 'established in the fruition' or 'standing in the fruit' (phala .thitaa) and the one 'practising for the realization of the fruit', as in AN8s, 59. #60479 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:34 am Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Herman and Jon, I can't help myself . . . H: "The brain is said to have 100 billion neurons, with each neuron having up to 10,000 connections to other neurons. Given that every neuron can be in at least two states, firing or not-firing, and that neural connections change with neural events, we can come to appreciate that the brain/mind is complex beyond anything conceivable. It is quite marvelous to think that the All of experience somehow originates in all that complexity in a few pounds of goo!!" J: "I think the idea of experience originating in the brain is one area where science and the Dhamma are very far apart (not that I really know anything about the scientific view on this." What about the possibility that "brain" might only be ruupa and that ruupa is the reality that does not experience and hence experience cannot "somehow originate" in goo? Of course, then I think of "heart-base," and whether one takes this literally or not. Sorry lads, ignore me if you must, I won't mind. Sincerely, Scott. #60480 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? ashkenn2k Hi Joop Your question is very interesting and my explanation again > My starting question was and still is about that the Buddha > says: "craving conditions upadana" or "dependent on craving arises > grasping". What is the difference - because there must be - between tanha and upadana? I don't accept the idea that 'upadana' is just 'more tanha': there must be not only a quantitative but also a qualitative difference between these two nidana's of D.O.! And - second question - why does 'tanha' (with another name) occur on the list of cetasikas and 'upadana' does not? k: As we know they are four typles of clinging MN Sutta 9 para 34, <> Sutta indicates clinging as lobha MN sutta 38 para 22 <> please note the delight in feelings is clinging and I interpret that delight in feelings is craving. Another way we looking is at it 4NT <<"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being. >> The sentence <> where being and non-being is about views. Cheers Ken O #60481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:36 am Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 12. nilovg Dear Friends, This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: 10. Three Inner Foes There are three inner taints, three inner foes, three inner enemies, three inner murderers, three inner antagonists. What are these three? Greed is an inner taintŠ..Hatred is an inner taintŠ..Delusion is an inner taint, an inner foe, an inner enemy, an inner murderer, an inner antagonist. Greed is a cause of harm, Unrest of mind it brings This danger that has grown within, Blind folk are unaware of it. A greedy person cannot see the facts, Nor can he understand the Dhamma. When greed has overpowered him, In complete darkness he is plunged. But he who does not crave and can forsake This greed and what incites to greed, From him quickly greed glides off Like water from a lotus leaf. Hate is a cause of harm, Unrest of mind it brings. This danger that has grown within, Blink folk are unaware of it. A hater cannot see the facts, Nor can he understand the Dhamma. When hate has overpowered him, In complete darkness he is plunged. But he who does not hate and can forsake This hatred and what incites to hate, From him quickly hatred falls off As from a palm tree falls the ripened fruits. Delusion is a cause of harm, Unrest of mind it brings. This danger that has grown within, Blind folk are unaware of it. He who is deluded cannot see the facts, Nor can he understand the Dhamma. If a man is in delusion's grip, In complete darkness he is plunged. But he who has shed delusion's veil Is undeluded where confusion reigns; He fully scatters all delusion, Just as the sun dispels the night. ~ ITIVUTTAKA 88 ****** Nina. #60482 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? nilovg Hallo Joop, Ken O, op 15-06-2006 11:58 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: My starting question was and still is about that the Buddha says: "craving conditions upadana" or "dependent on craving arises grasping". ------ Ken O explained this very well in his last post about different kinds of upadana and about craving leading to birth. I will not come into the thread of upadana, because I prefer to study slowly in the order of the Visuddhimagga. We shall come to it later on. Now we study about conditions in general and then these will be applied to D.O. It will be a while before we come to upadaana. ------- J: The best answer about the difference I have found is "8 => 9. Craving as a determinant for clinging: As desire becomes stronger it develops into clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation, creating AN ATTITUDE TOWARD AND EVALUATION OF THE OBJECT OF DESIRE (with vibhavatanha, a negative evaluation will be formed). Do you accept this qualitative difference, Nina? ------ N: I find the article rather complicated. I am not used to these terms, it is difficult language for me. ______ SECOND QUESTION N: "There are fiftytwo cetasikas, not more. What is upadana? It is not ruupa, it is not citta, it is cetasika. " J: Yes, of course it must be. I agree that 'upadana' must be, in the Abhidhamma system, a cetasika. --------- J:And why can there not be added a cetasika to the list of 52? When we look at the Dhammasangani, the list was shorter than 52, there has been added already. ------- N: This is another subject, and it was well explained by Ven. Nyanaponika Abh. Studies. ------- J: And - second question - why does 'tanha' (with another name) occur on the list of cetasikas and 'upadana' does not? ------- N: perhaps this can help. In the Dhammasangani § 1059, what is greed, there is a list of 98 names. These are all different aspects of lobha, such as: lust, passion, seducing, delighting, seamstress, forest, jungle, hoping, craving for sense objects, for existence, for non-existence (here are forms of tanhaa), flood, yoke, tie, grasping (upadaana), hindrance, etc. All these names show different aspects of lobha cetasika. Upadaana is among them. Also tanhaa. We see that defilements are classified in groups, and in several of them lobha occurs under a different name. This is to show different aspects. ------- J:So, Nina, what do you prefer: - EITHER there must be added a cetasika 'upadana' to the list of cetasikas - OR the Abhidhamma can not be completely used to 'translate' the conventional language the Buddha used in the Suttas when teaching D.O. ? ------- N: No 'either or', I do not see any contradictions in the Abhidhamma and Sutta. Nina. #60483 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) egberdina Hi Jon and Scott, On 15/06/06, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Herman > > > I think the idea of experience originating in the brain is one area > where science and the Dhamma are very far apart (not that I really know > anything about the scientific view on this ;-)). > Yes I would agree that the tipitaka does not attribute the brain with any mental functionality. But then, the tipitaka also has fermented cows urine, molasses and honey as medication for most conditions that ail a person. People vote with their feet, I always reckon, so if a tipitaka purist, in speech, insists on being treated by systems of medicine that are founded in quite a non-tipitaka view of causality, I know what they really believe, deep down. Kind Regards Herman #60484 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadaro on rupa gazita2002 Hello Nina and others, I do remember those talks, and Sanna recalls the room we had those talks in, but not the green curtains he mentions, and the temple grounds etc. "the only way to know wisdom is to have it", not sure if this came from the recorded talks, however I find it to-the-point as it shows me that unless wisdom arises [and falls away again] it cannot be known as a reality, it can only be conceptualised. Wisdom as a concept is fairly useless in terms of development, altho it may be pariyatti which can eventually lead to patipatti and even further, Pativedha. Listening to Ven. Dhammadharo's voice again, has reminded me of his death and that has reminded me of how death can come at any minute. My family and friends laugh at me when often i'll comment at parting 'see u next time if we are all still alive'. They don't realise I'm being serious! Anumodana again, to Sarah and Jon for giving me the opportunity to hear these talks. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil > thank you. > Does Azita remember these talks? > It is good to know how often there is no awareness, only what we take for > awareness. > Or there is too much trying to be aware, trying to know. > It is not a matter of trying to separate visible object from other > realities. > Nina. > op 14-06-2006 15:42 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > > "In fact we don't know rupa as well as we think we > do, because we open our eyes and we say "oh that's rupa" but > already there's thinking, already we know the shape, already we like > or we don't like, already we are mixing up rupa with concepts - but > still it is right to say when you open your eyes, rupa appears, only > we haven't separated that rupa from all the other events, all the > other realities." > #60485 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:04 pm Subject: Re: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 12. philofillet Hi Nina and all > But he who does not crave and can forsake > This greed and what incites to greed, > From him quickly greed glides off > Like water from a lotus leaf. Let us beware here. Anyone of us here who thinks he or she has forsaken lobha is just gathering more lobha, attachment to the image of being a person from whom greed slides off like water from a lotus leaf, along with more moha, delusion with regard to the true state of the citta processes at work. These kind of passages are very misleading if we don't realize that they are referring to the enlightened ones, not us. It is best to handle suttas with great care, I still feel - they are so enticing, when Mara is holding them up for us, as Mara does. Mara has links to "Access to Insight" too! :) Phil #60486 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:20 pm Subject: Re: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 12. philofillet Hi again Thinking about my previous post, about the prevalence of lobha, I heard an intersting talk from Phra Dhammadaro yesterday. He pointed out that our concern with lobha, thinking that it is more important than seeing, or hearing, is just more desire - desire to *not* have lobha! He was talking about sati, actually, lobha for sati. He seemingly assumed that his audience knew how much akusala desire there is for sati (which is not such a safe assumption, judging from discussions I've seen here!) but then also warned about desiring *not* to have lobha for sati! He always urges us to understand any dhamma to the degree we are capable, to stop being fussy. Easier said than done. Phil p.s on the other hand, lobha is one of the three roots of evil, so perhaps there is justification for concern about it, when there is concern about it - as long as there isn't the thought "I should have concern about it" - then it's all about self struggling to be good and wholesome. If the concern arises, it can be known, as any dhamma. p.p.s sorry again that I'm being a kind of guerilla poster these days, posting then dashing off without responding or participating in discussions. That's just where I have to be at these days! :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina and all > > > But he who does not crave and can forsake > > This greed and what incites to greed, > > From him quickly greed glides off > > Like water from a lotus leaf. > > > Let us beware here. Anyone of us here who thinks he or she has > forsaken lobha is just gathering more lobha, attachment to the image > of being a person from whom greed slides off like water from a lotus > leaf, along with more moha, delusion with regard to the true state > of the citta processes at work. > #60487 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "p.s Scott - I see the Oilers are 'hanging in' there:-)." Again, quite ridiculous: massive illusory structural stability inflates an illusory concept complete with real emotions absolutely clung too and immediately craved again just because of the outcome of a game. Nonsense, I say. Right after I say, "Go Oilers and long live hockey!" Ridiculously and nonsensically, Scott. #60488 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:39 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 475- Non-Aversion/Adosa (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa) ***** The Buddha reminded the monks to show acts of kindness to one another, both privately and in public and this is to be applied by laypeople as well. When there is true kindness it appears in our manners and speech. When someone else speaks harshly to us it is difficult not to have aversion and retort his speech with angry words. We are attached to pleasant objects and when there is an unpleasant object our attachment conditions aversion. When we see the ugliness of aversion and its disadvantages there are conditions to refrain from harsh speech. When we have aversion on account of what other people are doing or saying we forget to be mindful of our own cittas. When there is mindfulness it prevents us from wrong speech and then there is also non-aversion which removes vexation. ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60489 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:41 am Subject: Re: Dana in Judaism/Sarah & Matheesha (Re: [dsg] Anatta) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Matheesha, Nina & all) --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah, Matheesha, and all - > > I think that the article at > http://home.aol.com/lazera/tzedaka.htm may > be of interest because of the many points of similarity of teaachings of > the > Buddha. (I think of the importance of intention as regards morality, for > > example.) No doubt one will find much the same in other religions as > well. .... S: Yes, I think it's a good idea to start with aspects people can relate to easily and I think inc. the brahma viharas (yr other message) is a good idea. People tend to respond favourably. I also like the idea of stressing intention rather than the 'outer appearance' of deeds - good intentions and acts without expectations of results. One can then move on to different intentions and mental states. People know that when they give, there are good and bad intentions - perhaps this is a way to move into anatta. No one can make them good all the time. No one can help having regret or attachment afterwards etc. Just changing dhammas depending on different conditions and inclinations. possibly one can then move into results of kamma - unavoidable vs attitudes, reactions and further kamma. Difficult, though. We are having fun with this - poor Matheesha, he probably didn't bargain for SO many ideas:-)). As for the short story 'more emotional', Nina's idea of Jatakas is good. There are some good adapted versions for children, simply told. Also, something like the 'mustard seed' story and death - it affects everyone who hears it, I'm sure. Thx Howard for sharing your further thoughts and the link. Metta, Sarah ======= #60490 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Hi Kel, Matheesha & all, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > "You, Ananda, speak out of confidence, while there is knowledge in > the Tathagata that, in this community of monks, there is not even a > single monk who has any doubt or perplexity concerning the Buddha, > Dhamma, or Sangha, the path or the practice. Of these 500 monks, the > most backward is a stream-winner, not destined for the planes of > deprivation, headed to self-awakening for sure." > > Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I > exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about > completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words. > > Kel: What would be the need for warning and to be heedful for > post-stream-enterers? .... S: Isn't it true that satipatthana has to be developed on until all defilements are totally eradicated? Also, I think as perhaps Math suggested, the advice is also for any of us who can appreciate it. Dhp21 "Appamaado amatapada'm pamaado maccuno pada'm" "Heedfulness is the path to the deathless heedlessness is the path to death." Also a commentary note to the last sentence from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta you quoted: "'Ananda, among these': among these 'five hundred monks' sitting in the pavilion. 'The one who is the most backward': the one who is last in terms of virtue. It was referring to Aananda Thera that he said this. 'Achieve with vigilance': You should successfully perform all your duties with no absence of mindfulness. Thus ['As a landlord of great wealth lying on his deathbed would explain to his sons the value of his property']did the Blessed One, while lying on his deathbed, give all the advice he had given for forty-five years by putting it into the single word 'vigilance' (appamaada)." Metta, Sarah ======= #60491 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? sarahprocter... Hi Ken O (& Joop), --- Ken O wrote: >Just a short passage from SN by Ven Bodhi Book II Book of > Nidanavagga, pg 594 > < downwards and across would send the sap upwards. Substained by that > sap, norished by it, that great tree would stand a very long time. > So too when one lives comtemplating gratification in things that can > be clung to, craving increases.. Such is the origin of this whole > mass of suffering>> .... S: Excellent simile:-) Joop, thx for all your discussions and questions to everyone on this topic. I'm glad to read your discussions with KenO, Nina and others. Metta, Sarah ======= #60492 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane sarahprocter... Hi Herman (& Scott), --- Herman Hofman wrote: > The way in which lokuttara notions lead to new doctrines without any > basis in the Suttas or reality is especially pronounced when jhanas > become lokutarrajjhanas in the hands of the abhidhammikas. .... S: Pls elaborate. I don't believe 'jhanas become lokuttarajjhanas', rather when lokuttara cittas arise, they are said to be 'lokuttara jhana' cittas because they 'burn up' defilements when they arise. (Jhana means to 'burn up'. When mundane jhanas arise, they 'burn up' defilements temporarily, when lokuttara jhana cittas arise, they 'burn up' completely.) ... > > There are a number of reasons for the demise of the dhamma. SN 16:13 > > "It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. > It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property > that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's worthless people who arise > right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear. The > true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a ship sinks all at once. > > "These five downward-leading qualities tend to the confusion and > disappearance of the true Dhamma. Which five? There is the case where > the monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers live > without respect, without deference, for the Teacher. They live without > respect, without deference, for the Dhamma... for the Sangha... for > the Training... for concentration. These are the five downward-leading > qualities that tend to the confusion and disappearance of the true > Dhamma. > > Where it says concentration, you may safely replace that with jhanas. .... S: Yes, the commentary note BB gives says: "Spk: One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (a.t.tha samaapatiiyo) or make any effort to attain them." S: It's said to be an indication of decline when there are no longer any attainers of the higher paths with jhanas. A similar sutta in AN 111, 247 gives 'lack of mutual respect and deference' for the fifth cause or indication. ..... > > What actually is the point of having a theory of paths and fruits, > Scott, if the suttas are unequivocal in their prescription against > conceiving of and mentating about anything beyond the immediately > given, should comprehension be the goal. .... S: I think we can have respect and deference for the Dhamma, for the Triple Gem even if there are many aspects of the teachings which are not directly known. As for what can be directly known -- I addressed that in my last couple of posts to you, but you preferred to talk about models and theories, Herman:-). Metta, Sarah p.s btw, I didn't think this post of yours was 'stern' or 'preachy' either. ======= #60493 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:14 am Subject: Curing Restlessness and Regret ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to cure the agitated & worried Restlessness-&-Regret! Noticing Restlessness-&-Regret (uddhacca-kukkucca) arise can make it fade away: Herein, Bhikkhus, when Restlessness-&-Regret is present in him, the bhikkhu notes & understands: There is Restlessness-&-Regret in me, & when Restlessness-&-Regret is absent, he notes & understands: No Restlessness-&-Regret is in me. He also understands how unarisen Restlessness-&-Regret arises. He understands how to leave behind any arisen Restlessness-&-Regret, and he understands how left Restlessness-&-Regret will not arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Restlessness-&-Regret arise? There are unrest, unsettledness, nervous unease, agitation & anxiety, often giving irrational & unwise attention to such states, this is the feeding cause of the arising of unarisen Restlessness-&-Regret, & the feeding cause of worsening and exacerbation of Restlessness-&-Regret, that already has arisen. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Restlessness-&-Regret cease? There is the mental state of serene tranquillity, calm, quietude, rest, stillness, imperturbability, peace, frequently giving rational & wise attention to this exquisite mental state, is the starving cause for the non-arising of unarisen Restlessness-&-Regret, & the starving cause for the dampening and calming of Restlessness-&-Regret, that has already appeared. SN 46:51 Some advantageous reflections to return to whenever Restlessness-&-Regret is provoked: When the mind is restless, it is the proper time for cultivating the following factors of enlightenment: tranquillity, concentration and equanimity, because an agitated mind can easily be quietened by them. SN 46:53 Restlessness-&-Regret is like Slavery: Just as when a man is a slave, not independent, but dependent on others, unable to go where he likes, exactly & even so is restlessness since it forces one into unwanted activity & destroys any ease & calm. Later he is set free from slavery, is now independent, no longer dependent, a freeman who can go where he wants. And at that he rejoices, is glad at heart... Such is blissful freedom from restlessness. DN 2 Deliberately Directing: Conscious & Clever Centre of Concentration: Herein, Ananda, a Bhikkhu attends to this Focus: This is Real, this is Supreme, namely: The Stilling of all mental Construction, The Calming of all Restless Activity, The Fading of all Concern & Anxiety, The Cooling of all Temptation & Urge, The Ending of all Longing & Craving, The Exhaustion of all Fuel of Being, Ceasing, Peace, Bliss, Freedom, Nibbana … AN V 319 With all his attachments cut, with the mind's agitation quieted, calm and serene and happy is he, for he has attained peace of mind. Samyutta Nikaya I, 212 Calm is his thought, Calm is his speech, and Calm is his action, who, truly knowing, is wholly freed, perfectly tranquil and wise. Dhammapada 96 DOING GOOD = NO REGRET! Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good reaps only joy & ease... So both here & there, the wise with merit well done, enjoys the purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 DOING BAD = MUCH REGRET! Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong reaps only pain and regret... So both here & there, the evil wrongdoing fool suffers the painful results of prior actions. Dhammapada 16 How to get to the opposite good mental state: Calm (Samatha) see here: Forest Bliss: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Forest_Bliss.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> #60494 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Nina), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > I will try to answer these questions. > Please correct me if my answers are incorrect or > inadequate. ..... S: I meant to also respond before now to say that I thought you gave excellent comments and answers. Thank you very much. I started to have some discussion with Tep before about whether we can say sakkaaya ditthi and attavadupaadaana are synonyms. As Nina mentioned, we had some discussions with K.Sujin on this topic and she was stressing that attavadupaadaana includes sakkaaya ditthi, but is wider. A difficult point, because we also have ditthupaadaana and siilabbatupaadaana. I need to check my notes/listen to the discussions again. Anyway, thank you again for all your assistance. Htoo would really appeciate your messages like this one if he were around too - he used to give replies to the questions as well. Metta, Sarah ======== #60495 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye jonoabb Hi Scott (and Herman) Thanks for coming in on this thread. Scott Duncan wrote: >J: "I think the idea of experience originating in the brain is one >area where science and the Dhamma are very far apart (not that I >really know anything about the scientific view on this." > >What about the possibility that "brain" might only be ruupa and that >ruupa is the reality that does not experience and hence experience >cannot "somehow originate" in goo? > I think what you give here is clearly how things are contemplated to be in the Tipitaka. I suspect Herman is inclined to attribute a greater role to the brain, perhaps based on observations of his own experiences. >Of course, then I think of >"heart-base," and whether one takes this literally or not. > > As I understand it, the name 'heart-base' does not refer to the heart as a whole. But I don't find it necessary to try to identify precisely what constitutes this base since it is not going to be the object of our consciousness anyway ;-)) Jon #60496 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) jonoabb Hi Herman and Scott Herman Hofman wrote: >Hi Jon and Scott, > >On 15/06/06, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > >>Hi Herman >> >> >>I think the idea of experience originating in the brain is one area >>where science and the Dhamma are very far apart (not that I really know >>anything about the scientific view on this ;-)). >> >> > >Yes I would agree that the tipitaka does not attribute the brain with >any mental functionality. > >But then, the tipitaka also has fermented cows urine, molasses and >honey as medication for most conditions that ail a person. People vote >with their feet, I always reckon, so if a tipitaka purist, in speech, >insists on being treated by systems of medicine that are founded in >quite a non-tipitaka view of causality, I know what they really >believe, deep down. > > I'm not sure whether you're explaining why you don't see eye to eye with the Tipitaka on this, or pointing to an inconsistency in my (assumed) position ;-)) (and what is a 'Tipitaka purist', anyway??) Regardless of all that, we at least agree that the Tipitaka does not attribute the brain with any mental functionality. An interesting hypothesis, and quite a radical one for this day and age. As far as I know, it does not contradict anything thrown up by medical science (although it no doubt contradicts many scientists' hypotheses). Jon #60497 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, Ken O, > > op 15-06-2006 11:58 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > My starting question was and still is about that the Buddha > says: "craving conditions upadana" or "dependent on craving arises > grasping". ... Hallo Sarah, Nina, Ken O, all We agree that there is a strong connection between tanha and upadana, we don't agree on my idea that there is a subtle difference between these two forces working in D.O. An important difference to me: insight can be helpfull to see how tanha develops and evolves to upadana; denying the difference will make that insight inpossible. =============================================== I prefer now to go to the next step of D.O: "dependent on upadana (clinging,grasping) arises bhava". 'Bhava' most times translated as 'becoming' Payutto (what is the resistence to his work Nina? I cannot believe that it's only because you are not accustomed to his language) explains in his ch. 5, about D.O. applied to one lifetime: "10. Becoming -- the entire process of behavior generated to serve craving and clinging (kammabhava -- the active process); also the conditions of life resulting from such forces (upapattibhava --the passive process)." And the next process-step as: "9 => 10. Clinging as a determinant for becoming: Clinging conditions bhava, life states, both on the level of behavior (kammabhava), and as regards character and the physical and mental properties (upapattibhava). These could, for example, be the pattern of behavior (kammabhava) and character traits (upapattibhava) of one who aspires to be rich, or who desires power, fame, beauty, or who hates society, and so on." Bhikkhu Bodhi translates 'bhava' as 'existence' and explains: "Clinging is a condition for active existence because, under the influence of clinging, one engages in action that is accumulated as kamma. Clinging is a condition for resultant existence because the same clinging leads one back into the round of rebirth…." (CMA, p. 298) I get the impression BB and Ac. Anuruddha are only thinking about DO in three lifetimes and not about the one-lifetime-application of D.O.. ================================================== Can insight be helpful to prevent that 'clinging' nearly automatically evolves to 'becoming'? That's - to me - more difficult or nearly impossible, compared with the preventing that feeling evolves to desire or that desire evolves to clinging. The meditation teacher Christina Feldman says about 'bhava': "Clinging is followed by becoming or arising—the entire process of fixing or positioning the sense of self in a particular state of experience. Any time we think in self-referential terms, "I am," "I am angry," "I am loving" , "I am greedy" , "I know" , "I'm this kind of person" , and so on, an entire complex of behavior is generated to serve craving and clinging. I see something over there that I've projected as "this is going to make me really happy if I get this" , and I organize my behavior, my actions, my attention in order to find union with that. This is the process of becoming —becoming someone or something other than what is. " ================================================== Of course there is also the technical question: does 'bhava' occur on the list of paramattha dhammas, especially of cetasikas? I have not found one in the Abhidhammaatha Sangaha. Or had the two bhava rupas femininity and masculinity to be seen as such? Gender as a result of kamma produced by clinging (upadana)? That's rather speculative. Perhaps again lobha in disguise? Because when in your system of D.O. step 8 => 9 is lobha => lobha, why not step 9 => 10 is lobha => lobha ? (joking) There is 'bhava-tanha', that is 'craving for becoming', but that's not the same. Metta Joop #60498 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:30 am Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Herman, These views are quite interesting: H: "Yes I would agree that the tipitaka does not attribute the brain with any mental functionality. "But then, the tipitaka also has fermented cows urine, molasses and honey as medication for most conditions that ail a person. People vote with their feet, I always reckon, so if a tipitaka purist, in speech, insists on being treated by systems of medicine that are founded in quite a non-tipitaka view of causality, I know what they really believe, deep down." I don't see the basic point in the above distinction. In fact, I don't buy it at all. Advances in medical science, or in science as a whole, are, in my opinion, orthagonal to the teachings of the Dhamma, say, as in this case, that found in the tipitaka. How does the fact that there are many more effective treatments for illness (not to mention a vastly increased knowledge of illness and its causes) have anything to say about the Dhamma, again in particular in the tipitaka? If a "tipitaka purists" exists and can to be shown up as a hypocrite for living in a modern age and taking advantage of the most recent treatments devised by modern medical science, then the obverse must exist as well: one who claims to follow the Dhamma but in reality has only the deepest faith in science and things man-made and seems really to see in the earnest striver only a simple, thick-headed bumpkin. This amounts, in my opinion, to a sort of bigotry based on an over-blown conceit about the mundane "enlightenment" of us so-called sophisticated moderns in comparison to the stupid, superstitious and naive humans of the distant past. At worst the view borders on disrespect - for the Dhamma and for those who struggle to comprehend and practise it for what it is. Dhamma and science are apples and oranges. More than that, there is no transcendent value at all in science. For one to value science for what it is, while valuing Dhamma, including the tipitaka, for what it is, creates absolutely no contradiction. Is it your view that modern science supercedes the Dhamma? If so, are you fixed on this view? For one to fool one's self about the value of science over that of Dhamma is perilous, in my opinion. And my opinion, as you know, counts as nothing. Please, Herman, don't respond if this reply strikes you as argumentative or combative since I don't wish to be either. The views you have stated seem provocative and I'm not into being provoked. If there is a chance that you might labour under a wrong impression (which I believe) and might benefit from correction (which I hope) then fine. If not, consider me to be an annoying element within this forum and ignore me as you see fit. I mean no offense; it's just that I can't figure out how best to interact with you and want to work to avoid the tendency to respond to the pressure to alienate you for just this last time. Sincerely, Scott. #60499 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jonoabb Hi Joop On your first question below, I don't know if you have seen the explanation given in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' in the entry on 'Pa.ticcasamuppaada'. It says there: ****************************** (8.) "Through craving is conditioned clinging" (tanhÄ?-paccayÄ? upÄ?dÄ?nam). 'Clinging' is explained as an intensified form of craving. It is of 4 kinds: * (1) clinging to sensuality, * (2) to erroneous views, * (3) to rules and ritual, * (4) to personality-belief. Sensuous craving is to (1) a condition of natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya). For (2-4), craving is a condition by way of co-nascence, mutuality, root (hetu), etc. It also may be a condition of natural decisive support. For example, through craving for heavenly rebirth, etc. people often may be induced to cling to certain rules and rituals, with the hope of reaching thereby the object of their desires. ****************************** I think the connecton made here between sensuous craving and wrong view is particularly interesting. Jon Joop wrote: >Hallo Nina, all > >One more time I will say something about one topic we have been >discussing in this thread I started some weeks ago. >For the rest either we agree or we can best agree to disagree. > >My starting question was and still is about that the Buddha >says: "craving conditions upadana" or "dependent on craving arises >grasping". >What is the difference - because there must be - between tanha and >upadana? I don't accept the idea that 'upadana' is just 'more tanha': >there must be not only a quantitative but also a qualitative >difference between these two nidana's of D.O.! >And - second question - why does 'tanha' (with another name) occur on >the list of cetasikas and 'upadana' does not? > > >FIRST QUESTION >The best answer about the difference I have found is >"8 => 9. Craving as a determinant for clinging: As desire becomes >stronger it develops into clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation, >creating AN ATTITUDE TOWARD AND EVALUATION OF THE OBJECT OF DESIRE >(with vibhavatanha, a negative evaluation will be formed). A fixed >position is adopted towards things: if there is attraction it >precipitates a binding effect, an identification with the object of >attraction. Whatever is connected with that object seems to be good. >When there is repulsion, the object of that repulsion seems to >affront the self. Any adopted position towards these things tends to >reinforce clinging, which will be directed toward, and in turn >reinforce the value of: Sense objects (kama); Ideas and beliefs >(ditthi); Systems, models, practices and so on (silavatta); The >belief in a self (attavada) to either attain or be thwarted from its >desires." (capitals me) > >Source: "Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality" >By P. A. Payutto Translated from the Thai by Bruce Evans >www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosopy/thera >(A special reason I liked this text it that Payutto gives also >information about the two ways D.O. can be applied: not only >the 'three lifetime' application but also the one 'within one >lifetime') > > #60500 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry mlnease Hi Scott, This is not the world (the aggregates) but it is what people take for the world. So many of us (Buddhists) (especially under the influence of the Mahayana and even older schools) take 'the world' to be illusion. It isn't. It's real, the realities that are the aggregates. The trouble is that we take the illusion to be the world. We (sometimes) know that we take the dream for reality, but how often do we know that we take realities for a dream? It's attachment to the real that's the problem so often described in the texts, and it's into this attachment that insight must occur to liberate. The idea that the problem is attachment to illusion and that we need only relinquish the illusion (or just stop thinking) is a serious error, by my understanding of the texts. Is this pertinent to your message? What do you think? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Duncan To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry Dear Sarah, S: "p.s Scott - I see the Oilers are 'hanging in' there:-)." Again, quite ridiculous: massive illusory structural stability inflates an illusory concept complete with real emotions absolutely clung too and immediately craved again just because of the outcome of a game. Nonsense, I say. Right after I say, "Go Oilers and long live hockey!" Ridiculously and nonsensically, Scott. #60501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:52 am Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 13. nilovg Dear Friends, This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: ****** Nina. #60502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? nilovg Hallo Joop, I need so much attention and concentration for the Visuddhimagga and Tiika, that it is too difficult for me to study other articles on this subject. The story is a little longer. Larry did an enormous job typing the 314 paragraphs in English of Ch XVII, Visuddhimagga. Then he matched the pali (gotten from internet) which is written in one piece, not divided in paras and let me check them. He must have learnt Pali although he never told me. It was a lot of work for him. He sent them in bunches of ten. Although I did not read all while checking, I got an over all impression of the way D.o. is dealt with, and at the end I realized that the treatise is very complete with all the different methods and aspects. I became completely silent. This may regard one of your remarks: 291. 3. Then: (a) There were five causes in the past, (b) And now there is a fivefold fruit; (c) There are five causes now as well, (d) And in the future fivefold fruit. ------- the ending is: 314: Therefore, practising for his own and others' benefit and welfare, and abandoning other duties: Let a wise man with mindfulness So practise that he may begin To find a footing in the deeps Of the dependent origin. ------------ I will not be able to answer any posts just now, because tomorrow I am away for the day and from Sunday to Wednesday we are away walking in Drenthe. Nina. op 16-06-2006 15:12 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: Payutto (what is the resistence to his work Nina? I cannot believe that it's only because you are not accustomed to his language) explains in his ch. 5, about D.O. applied to one lifetime: #60503 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Roots of Good and Evil, no 13. mlnease Hi Nina, Interesting--this is all about accumulation isn't it, accumulated kamma, the fourth aggregate? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: [dsg] The Roots of Good and Evil, no 13. Dear Friends, This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: #60504 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jwromeijn Hallo Jon Good that you participate on this thread too I had not read Nyatiloka's Dictionary the last weeks but your quote is more or less the same as what Bhikkhu Bodhi explains in the Abhidhammatha Sangaha. There are two points that are puzzling me: - " 'Clinging' is explained as an intensified form of craving" Explained by whom? - Why do you not accept that it's a little bit strange that "Dependent on craving arises clinging", as said by the Buddha, is explained as "Dependent on craving arises much craving", what seems to mean that craving conditions itself ? You said: "I think the connecton made here between sensuous craving and wrong view is particularly interesting." Joop: I'm interested in the connection between sensuous craving and clinging, because I try to get a deeper understanding in D.O. I think "Wrong view" does belong to "ignorance" (avijja), so somebody made a jump from nidana 8 to 1 in D.O. How do you see the connection between "wrong view" and "ignorance" and how do you see to connection between "wrong view" and "clinging" (upadana) ? Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > > On your first question below, I don't know if you have seen the > explanation given in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' in the entry on > 'Pa.ticcasamuppaada'. It says there: > > ****************************** > (8.) "Through craving is conditioned clinging" (tanhÄ?-paccayÄ? upÄ?dÄ?nam). > > 'Clinging' is explained as an intensified form of craving. It is of 4 kinds: > * (1) clinging to sensuality, > * (2) to erroneous views, > * (3) to rules and ritual, > * (4) to personality-belief. > > Sensuous craving is to (1) a condition of natural decisive support > (pakatupanissaya). > > For (2-4), craving is a condition by way of co-nascence, mutuality, root > (hetu), etc. > > It also may be a condition of natural decisive support. For example, > through craving for heavenly rebirth, etc. people often may be induced > to cling to certain rules and rituals, with the hope of reaching thereby > the object of their desires. > ****************************** > > I think the connecton made here between sensuous craving and wrong view > is particularly interesting. > > Jon > > > Joop wrote: > > >Hallo Nina, all > > > >One more time I will say something about one topic we have been > >discussing in this thread I started some weeks ago. > >For the rest either we agree or we can best agree to disagree. > > > >My starting question was and still is about that the Buddha > >says: "craving conditions upadana" or "dependent on craving arises > >grasping". > >What is the difference - because there must be - between tanha and > >upadana? I don't accept the idea that 'upadana' is just 'more tanha': > >there must be not only a quantitative but also a qualitative > >difference between these two nidana's of D.O.! > >And - second question - why does 'tanha' (with another name) occur on > >the list of cetasikas and 'upadana' does not? > > > > > >FIRST QUESTION > >The best answer about the difference I have found is > >"8 => 9. Craving as a determinant for clinging: As desire becomes > >stronger it develops into clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation, > >creating AN ATTITUDE TOWARD AND EVALUATION OF THE OBJECT OF DESIRE > >(with vibhavatanha, a negative evaluation will be formed). A fixed > >position is adopted towards things: if there is attraction it > >precipitates a binding effect, an identification with the object of > >attraction. Whatever is connected with that object seems to be good. > >When there is repulsion, the object of that repulsion seems to > >affront the self. Any adopted position towards these things tends to > >reinforce clinging, which will be directed toward, and in turn > >reinforce the value of: Sense objects (kama); Ideas and beliefs > >(ditthi); Systems, models, practices and so on (silavatta); The > >belief in a self (attavada) to either attain or be thwarted from its > >desires." (capitals me) > > > >Source: "Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality" > >By P. A. Payutto Translated from the Thai by Bruce Evans > >www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosopy/thera > >(A special reason I liked this text it that Payutto gives also > >information about the two ways D.O. can be applied: not only > >the 'three lifetime' application but also the one 'within one > >lifetime') > > > > > #60505 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye egberdina Hi Scott, There are many points to address in your post. I hope you think provocative is good, cuz there's going to be plenty more where that came from :-) > "But then, the tipitaka also has fermented cows urine, molasses and > honey as medication for most conditions that ail a person. People vote > with their feet, I always reckon, so if a tipitaka purist, in speech, > insists on being treated by systems of medicine that are founded in > quite a non-tipitaka view of causality, I know what they really > believe, deep down." > > I don't see the basic point in the above distinction. In fact, I > don't buy it at all. > When there are no options to do otherwise, it is not particularly noble to accept circumstances as they are. What people do, given the freedom to choose, is telling of what they believe and what they want. And generally, people want to live long and happy lives. And given choices, people will choose paths that they believe will lead them in that direction. Hardly what the Dhamma is about, don't you reckon? > Advances in medical science, or in science as a whole, are, in my > opinion, orthagonal to the teachings of the Dhamma, say, as in this > case, that found in the tipitaka. How does the fact that there are > many more effective treatments for illness (not to mention a vastly > increased knowledge of illness and its causes) have anything to say > about the Dhamma, again in particular in the tipitaka? > An understanding of causality underlies every ethical prescription known to man. For the purpose of ethical systems is future happiness. The tipitaka abounds in moral prescriptions, based on particular understandings of causality. Science has significantly altered the way the world can be understood, which makes a re-evaluation of the ethical systems of days gone by an imperative. So, in answer to your question, in the case where a worldling intent on future happiness clings to an unrevised Buddhism as the moral framework of choice, their future happiness is likely to evade them. For they have no option but to accept all calamity and ill-health as the inevitable consequences of past action. This, of course, in contrast to acting now in accordance with a proven understanding of the way the world works. Simple hygiene, clean drinking water, access to antibiotics and contraceptives go a long way to a healthy life, while fiefdom to a corrupted priesthood that is the sole source of knowledge about the world is guaranteed to leave you hoping that the next life will be better. But the Dhamma is not for worldlings, nor for future happiness. The Dhamma is timeless and immediate, and neither science or any other -ism will have any effect on it.. > If a "tipitaka purists" exists and can to be shown up as a hypocrite > for living in a modern age and taking advantage of the most recent > treatments devised by modern medical science, then the obverse must > exist as well: one who claims to follow the Dhamma but in reality has > only the deepest faith in science and things man-made and seems really > to see in the earnest striver only a simple, thick-headed bumpkin. A purist is one who holds the tradition of choice to be a closed canon. They hold that everything that is needed to be known is to be found in that tradition. And know it they do. But to the extent that the tradition is about cessation, including the cessation of knowledge, who is stepping up to the plate? An earnest striver, in my book, earnestly strives. Earnestly striving to know and uphold the closed tradition is different, quite different, to striving for cessation. > This amounts, in my opinion, to a sort of bigotry based on an > over-blown conceit about the mundane "enlightenment" of us so-called > sophisticated moderns in comparison to the stupid, superstitious and > naive humans of the distant past. At worst the view borders on > disrespect - for the Dhamma and for those who struggle to comprehend > and practise it for what it is. I don't know what you believe the Dhamma to be, Scott, but given the invitation to cease mentation to end suffereing, what would be your excuse? > > Dhamma and science are apples and oranges. More than that, there is > no transcendent value at all in science. For one to value science for > what it is, while valuing Dhamma, including the tipitaka, for what it > is, creates absolutely no contradiction. > Dhamma and Dhamma seem to be apples and oranges as well. For one to value Dhamma is to entrench themselves in the world, for the other it is to renounce it. > Is it your view that modern science supercedes the Dhamma? If so, are > you fixed on this view? For one to fool one's self about the value of > science over that of Dhamma is perilous, in my opinion. > It is my view that ignorance of causality leads to suffering, and that unwillingness to critically examine what is held to be sacred is a symptom of that suffering. > And my opinion, as you know, counts as nothing. Please, Herman, don't > respond if this reply strikes you as argumentative or combative since > I don't wish to be either. The views you have stated seem provocative > and I'm not into being provoked. > Provocative has positive connotations too, you know :-) > If there is a chance that you might labour under a wrong impression > (which I believe) and might benefit from correction (which I hope) > then fine. If not, consider me to be an annoying element within this > forum and ignore me as you see fit. I mean no offense; it's just that > I can't figure out how best to interact with you and want to work to > avoid the tendency to respond to the pressure to alienate you for just > this last time. It might help you to answer yourself this question. What is your purpose in interacting with me? What would you like to be an outcome of our discussions? Kind Regards Herman #60506 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) egberdina Hi Jon, > I'm not sure whether you're explaining why you don't see eye to eye with > the Tipitaka on this, or pointing to an inconsistency in my (assumed) > position ;-)) (and what is a 'Tipitaka purist', anyway??) > See my post to Scott. > Regardless of all that, we at least agree that the Tipitaka does not > attribute the brain with any mental functionality. An interesting > hypothesis, and quite a radical one for this day and age. As far as I > know, it does not contradict anything thrown up by medical science > (although it no doubt contradicts many scientists' hypotheses). > It feels a little bit surreal to be having this discussion. You seem to be saying that medical science does not attribute mental functionality to the brain. Is that what you are saying? Kind Regards Herman #60507 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Nina), Thank you very much for your response to my answers. As regards sakkaaya ditthi and attavaadupaadaana being synonymous, I copied it from Dr. Mehm Tin Mon’s book. I will quote another book, Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka. -------------------- Quote [Upaadaana: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhaa, q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging (kaamupaadaana), clinging to views (ditthupaadaana), clinging to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupaadaana), clinging to the personaljty-belief (atta-vaadupaadaana). (1) "What now is the sensuous clinging? Whatever with regard to sensuous objects there exists of sensuous lust, sensuous desire, sensuous attachment, sensuous passion, sensuous deludedness, sensuous fetters: this is called sensuous clinging. (2) ''What is the clinging to views? 'Alms and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views. (3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual. (4) "What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence (s. sakkaaya-ditthi): these are called the clinging to the personality-belief" (Dhs. 1214-17).] End quote. -------------------- I can also quote yet another book, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Mahaa Thera Narada and edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi. But I will not print it here, otherwise, my message will be too long. It is on page 266-267. It is also mentioned there that clinging to a doctrine of self is the adoption of twenty types of personality view (sakkaayaditthi). -------------------- If attavaadupaadaana includes sakkaaya ditthi, but is wider, I will be most grateful to know how much wider. What is in the attavaadupaadaana, which is not in the twenty types of sakkaaya ditthi? Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han (& Nina), > S: I meant to also respond before now to say that I > thought you gave excellent comments and answers. > Thank you very much. > > I started to have some discussion with Tep before > about whether we can say sakkaaya ditthi and > attavadupaadaana are synonyms. > As Nina mentioned, we had some discussions with > K.Sujin on this topic and she was stressing that > attavadupaadaana includes sakkaaya ditthi, but is > wider. A difficult point, because we also have > ditthupaadaana and siilabbatupaadaana. I need > to check my notes/listen to the discussions again. > > Anyway, thank you again for all your assistance. > Htoo would really appeciate your messages like this > one if he were around too - he used to give replies to the questions as well. > Metta, > Sarah > ======== > > > #60508 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane egberdina Hi Sarah, On 16/06/06, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Herman (& Scott), > > > --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > The way in which lokuttara notions lead to new doctrines without any > > basis in the Suttas or reality is especially pronounced when jhanas > > become lokutarrajjhanas in the hands of the abhidhammikas. > > .... > S: Pls elaborate. I don't believe 'jhanas become lokuttarajjhanas', rather > when lokuttara cittas arise, they are said to be 'lokuttara jhana' cittas > because they 'burn up' defilements when they arise. (Jhana means to 'burn > up'. When mundane jhanas arise, they 'burn up' defilements temporarily, > when lokuttara jhana cittas arise, they 'burn up' completely.) > ... Sink your teeth into this :-) http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 Kind Regards Herman #60509 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane egberdina Hey Sarah, On 16/06/06, sarah abbott wrote: > > .... > S: I think we can have respect and deference for the Dhamma, for the > Triple Gem even if there are many aspects of the teachings which are not > directly known. As for what can be directly known -- I addressed that in > my last couple of posts to you, but you preferred to talk about models and > theories, Herman:-). > So what should I do with all those posts that treat at length of cula-sotapannas, maggas and phalas that follow each other immediately, pattisandhi cittas and the like? :-) Kind Regards Herman #60510 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta egberdina Hi KenO, Thanks for your posts. > > k: I remember I read about past kamma etc. I will get back to you > on this issue, I need sometime to it up about the vipaka theories. > Maybe a few weeks or months....... :-) but will get back to you > Whenever is good for you, is good for me. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman #60511 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thank you very much for the excellent points you make below: M: "This is not the world (the aggregates) but it is what people take for the world. So many of us (Buddhists) (especially under the influence of the Mahayana and even older schools) take 'the world' to be illusion. It isn't. It's real, the realities that are the aggregates. The trouble is that we take the illusion to be the world. We (sometimes) know that we take the dream for reality, but how often do we know that we take realities for a dream? It's attachment to the real that's the problem so often described in the texts, and it's into this attachment that insight must occur to liberate. The idea that the problem is attachment to illusion and that we need only relinquish the illusion (or just stop thinking) is a serious error, by my understanding of the texts. "Is this pertinent to your message? What do you think?" I almost didn't have a message, I was just saying "Hi" to Sarah, but on the other hand, I was watching myself during the game. I think you're correct. It *is* attachment to the real that is the "real" problem. I guess when I live and die by the Oilers my emotional states are real but they only serve to reinforce the self-belief. These feelings are so real that the belief that there is a person - one who feels so great when the Oilers win, so afraid they'll lose, so into the whole thing - is automatic. If only I can see and know more and more that these real feelings are fleeting, unsatisfactory, and not-self then I think that is the point. I think I can still heartily cheer for the Oilers, and I won't be able to prevent either the agony or the ecstacy, but I might be able to see the arising and falling away of the realities. I hope I've answered well. Sincerely, Scott. #60512 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Herman, May I answer this last question first and come back to the others? H: "It might help you to answer yourself this question. What is your purpose in interacting with me? What would you like to be an outcome of our discussions?" This is a great question!! (I hope you don't mind me answering myself the question in public.) Believe it or not I've been asking it of myself each time I try to address your comments. Here's my best attempt at answering it: When I encounter some of your statements, views, and opinions I find myself initially (and inexplicably) either annoyed or angry or incredulous. I immediately encounter some conception of "you" and think, "What the hell is this guy doing? Is he serious? Does he want to alienate everyone? Where's the respect?" and the like. I honestly find your views at times to be wrong and seemingly delivered, as I've said before, simply to provoke, or oppose. I want to just dismiss you as a sophisticated troll. But then I stop. Each time I wind up thinking that this would not be right here in this Forum. Yeah, probably in some other place where the Dhamma was not the focus, I'd act on my reactions and totally ignore you; or get into a knock-down-drag-out debate out of anger or competitiveness or whatever. Or maybe not, I don't really know. But here, at least, I want to try to walk-the-walk (well, I try elsewhere too but...). So I try to keep interacting with you. I don't want to give in to the knee-jerk reaction to just ignore you out of aversion or anger, nor do I want to just fight with you. I try to do neither. I'll be the first to admit that I probably lack skill in the attempt. And yes, now I notice some conceit arising as I respond like, "Aren't I so noble here," but I'm going to keep trying to answer anyway. Somewhere in all these other feelings that arise at times in response to your squiggles on the screen, is the desire to perhaps help you with your wrong views. I know that could sound totally grandiose and smug but you asked the question. I'd like to help you where I see you are going wrong. I am the worst source of help in this regard but for some reason it seems that I can just see where you're off-base. So I guess that is what I would like the outcome of our discussions to be: You somehow going, "Oh man, I've been missing the point, now I get it." I know that I hope to learn things from others here. Within this group there is so much Dhamma understanding that I wish you could take advantage of it rather than, to use what is, I think, an Old Testament idiom, simply "kicking against the pricks." There you have it. The ugly truth. I hope you'll understand where I'm coming from. Apologies to you and all the other good members of DSG if I have been offensive and unskillful in the above. I'll take the feedback and sanction if I have it coming to me. Sincerely, Scott. #60513 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >Hi Jon, > > > >>I'm not sure whether you're explaining why you don't see eye to eye with >>the Tipitaka on this, or pointing to an inconsistency in my (assumed) >>position ;-)) (and what is a 'Tipitaka purist', anyway??) >> >> > >See my post to Scott. > > OK. Will take a look. >>Regardless of all that, we at least agree that the Tipitaka does not >>attribute the brain with any mental functionality. An interesting >>hypothesis, and quite a radical one for this day and age. As far as I >>know, it does not contradict anything thrown up by medical science >>(although it no doubt contradicts many scientists' hypotheses). >> >> > >It feels a little bit surreal to be having this discussion. You seem >to be saying that medical science does not attribute mental >functionality to the brain. Is that what you are saying? > > No, not at all; medical science does indeed attribute mental functionality to the brain. But I'm saying that as far as I know there is nothing in the findings of medical science that precludes the hypothesis that mental functionality originates outside the brain. Jon #60514 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:13 pm Subject: Harmlessness and Tolerance ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Tender Harmlessness & Patient Tolerance Protects all Beings! The Blessed Buddha was a great friend of tolerance & harmlessness: I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. A. II, 72 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in sweet silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love and delights always in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, makes it immovable and unshakable. I develop the divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha. 648-9 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. SN I 208 He who does not strike nor makes others strike, who robs not nor makes others rob, sharing love with all that lives, finds enmity with none. Itivuttaka 22 As a mother even with her life protects her only son, so let one cultivate infinite, yeah universal, friendliness towards all sentient, living & breathing beings. When one with a mind of true affection feels compassion for this entire world, above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. The one who has left violence, who never harm any being, who never kill nor causes to kill, such one, mild, is a Holy Noble One. Dhammapada 405 The one who is friendly among the hostile, who is harmless among the violent, who is detached among the greedy, such one is a Holy Noble One. Dhammapada 406 He is not Noble who injures living beings. He is called Noble because he is gentle & kind towards all living beings. Dhammapada 270 Tolerance is the highest training. Patience is the best praxis. So all Buddhas say. Dhammapada 184 Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. Khuddakapatha 9 Solitude is happiness for one who is content, who has heard the Dhamma and clearly sees. Cordial non-violence is happiness in this world harmlessness towards all living beings. Udana 10 How to get patience, acceptance, and non-opposing tolerance: see here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Patient_is_Tolerance.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> #60515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hallo Jon > >Good that you participate on this thread too > > Thanks! >I had not read Nyatiloka's Dictionary the last weeks but your quote >is more or less the same as what Bhikkhu Bodhi explains in the >Abhidhammatha Sangaha. > >There are two points that are puzzling me: >- " 'Clinging' is explained as an intensified form of craving" >Explained by whom? > > I assume this is a reference to the commentaries or the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. >- Why do you not accept that it's a little bit strange >that "Dependent on craving arises clinging", as said by the Buddha, >is explained as "Dependent on craving arises much craving", what >seems to mean that craving conditions itself ? > > I don't read it a 'craving conditions itself'. I read it as 'some forms of lobha condition other (more intensive) forms of lobha'. However, even the reading 'lobha conditions more of itself' would not sound so strange or unlikely to me. >You said: "I think the connecton made here between sensuous craving >and wrong view is particularly interesting." >Joop: I'm interested in the connection between sensuous craving and >clinging, because I try to get a deeper understanding in D.O. >I think "Wrong view" does belong to "ignorance" (avijja), so somebody >made a jump from nidana 8 to 1 in D.O. >How do you see the connection between "wrong view" and "ignorance" >and how do you see to connection between "wrong view" and "clinging" >(upadana) ? > > As I understand it, wrong view is a form of akusala that is rooted in lobha. Wrong view takes dhammas for being a certain way that is other than the way they truly are. As Nina explained in the 'Cetasikas' thread: "Moha darkens the true nature of dhammas, and it accompanies each akusala citta. Ditthi has a distorted view about dhammas, a wrong interpretation. It arises only with lobha-muula-citta. One clings to one's view." (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50461) Jon #60516 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane sarahprocter... Hey Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > So what should I do with all those posts that treat at length of > cula-sotapannas, maggas and phalas that follow each other immediately, > pattisandhi cittas and the like? :-) .... S: Good Question:-)) I'd say that if they have any relevance to your understanding and practice at the present moment then read and consider them carefully. If not, then leave them aside or skip them for now:-). We can read,consider and reflect on different aspects of the teachings until we understand them. Obviously, they are only understood more clearly when awareness arises and develops, otherwise they're just words and texts about things we don't really know about. I do think that when there's any understanding of dhammas, what we read in the texts becomes a little clearer and we begin to appreciate what is meant by 'accumulations', 'birth', 'cittas', 'path' and so on. As for why we are having discussions on cula-sotapannas, magga and phala cittas, patisandhi and so on - well, it's different for everyone. Sometimes I think that comments made on these topics may have relevance to how people view 'practice' and to how (or if) they read the commentaries or Abhidhamma. For example, in the recent discussions on magga and phala cittas, those who read the suttas as clearly suggesting fruition doesn't immediately follow path consciousness, they clearly disagree with what is in the commentaries and Abhidhamma and this can give rise to scepticism about other aspects they read in these sources. Sometimes there is an explanation which may help and affect how we read similar sutta references in future. If you'd like to ask about the relevance of any other detailed topics (such as the one on cula-sotapannas)or why I'm discussing any points in particular, please ask anytime. It's always helpful to bring the relevance back to the present moment. Metta, Sarah ======= #60517 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:40 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 476- Non-Aversion/Adosa (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa)continued ***** We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Chapter XI, Sakka Suttas, I, § 4) that Sakka, ruler of the gods, was reviled by Vepacitti, an Asura (a demon). Sakka explained to Måtali, the charioteer, that it was not because of weakness that he showed forbearance. He praised patience and forbearance and he said: * "…Worse of the two is he who, when reviled, Reviles again. Who does not, when reviled, Revile again, a twofold victory wins. Both of the other and himself he seeks The good; for the other’s angry mood Does understand and grows calm and still. He who of both is a physician, since Himself he heals and the other too, Folk deem him fool, they knowing not the Dhamma…" * ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60518 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >Hi Jon, > > > >>I'm not sure whether you're explaining why you don't see eye to eye with >>the Tipitaka on this, or pointing to an inconsistency in my (assumed) >>position ;-)) (and what is a 'Tipitaka purist', anyway??) >> >> > >See my post to Scott. > > I've read your post to Scott, but I can't say I'm any the wiser ;-)) You said in your earlier post: > "But then, the tipitaka also has fermented cows urine, molasses and > honey as medication for most conditions that ail a person. People vote > with their feet, I always reckon, so if a tipitaka purist, in speech, > insists on being treated by systems of medicine that are founded in > quite a non-tipitaka view of causality, I know what they really > believe, deep down." I am familiar with references to "fermented cows urine, molasses and honey as medication" in the context of certain ascetic observances that may be undertaken by monks, along with observances regarding the acquisition of robes from charnel grounds, not lying down to sleep, and the like. I am not aware that this form of medication is anywhere given as being suitable for the general monks, let alone for lay folk. The Buddha himself had the benefit of the best medical treatment available (one of his followers, Jivaka, was the foremost physician of the time), and this did not include fermented cows urine, molasses and honey as medication as far as I'm aware (does that make him not a Tipitaka purist, I wonder?). As far as the undertaking of ascetic observances goes, the references to fermented cows urine, molasses and honey as medication are as relevant today as they were 2500 years ago. So if your point is that the Tipitaka needs revision to keep up with medical/scientific development, I don't think the example you've chosen supports the argument. Just my personal view, of course ;-)). Jon #60519 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ?Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye jonoabb Hi Herman As suggested, I have read your post to Scott. A couple of comments interspersed. Herman Hofman wrote: >Hi Scott, >... > > >An understanding of causality underlies every ethical prescription >known to man. For the purpose of ethical systems is future happiness. >The tipitaka abounds in moral prescriptions, based on particular >understandings of causality. Science has significantly altered the way >the world can be understood, which makes a re-evaluation of the >ethical systems of days gone by an imperative. > > I notice below you say that 'Dhamma is timeless and immediate, and neither science or any other -ism will have any effect on it', so I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that advances in science have superseded some of the understandings of causality contained in the Tipitaka. Would you mind giving a specific example or two. >So, in answer to your question, in the case where a worldling intent >on future happiness clings to an unrevised Buddhism as the moral >framework of choice, their future happiness is likely to evade them. >For they have no option but to accept all calamity and ill-health as >the inevitable consequences of past action. This, of course, in >contrast to acting now in accordance with a proven understanding of >the way the world works. Simple hygiene, clean drinking water, access >to antibiotics and contraceptives go a long way to a healthy life, >while fiefdom to a corrupted priesthood that is the sole source of >knowledge about the world is guaranteed to leave you hoping that the >next life will be better. > > If this is a reference to a supposed prescription for the use of fermented cow's urine etc as medicine, I think you may have misread the reference (see my earlier post). >But the Dhamma is not for worldlings, nor for future happiness. The >Dhamma is timeless and immediate, and neither science or any other >-ism will have any effect on it.. > > >> If a "tipitaka purists" exists and can to be shown up as a hypocrite >> for living in a modern age and taking advantage of the most recent >> treatments devised by modern medical science, then the obverse must >> exist as well: one who claims to follow the Dhamma but in reality has >> only the deepest faith in science and things man-made and seems really >> to see in the earnest striver only a simple, thick-headed bumpkin. >> >> > >A purist is one who holds the tradition of choice to be a closed >canon. They hold that everything that is needed to be known is to be >found in that tradition. And know it they do. But to the extent that >the tradition is about cessation, including the cessation of >knowledge, who is stepping up to the plate? > >An earnest striver, in my book, earnestly strives. Earnestly striving >to know and uphold the closed tradition is different, quite different, >to striving for cessation. > > Yes, but whether the would-be earnest striver is truly earnestly striving or only thinks he is is another question. Can there be truly earnest striving (vipassana) without a substantial knowledge of material that originates only from the teachings (of which the Tipitaka is the best record available)? As a matter of interest, what is an example of something that needs to be known but is not found in the Tipitaka? >> This amounts, in my opinion, to a sort of bigotry based on an >> over-blown conceit about the mundane "enlightenment" of us so-called >> sophisticated moderns in comparison to the stupid, superstitious and >> naive humans of the distant past. At worst the view borders on >> disrespect - for the Dhamma and for those who struggle to comprehend >> and practise it for what it is. >> >> > >I don't know what you believe the Dhamma to be, Scott, but given the >invitation to cease mentation to end suffereing, what would be your >excuse? > > As I understand it, the only way mentation can cease is by the cessation of the khandhas at Parinibbana. Until then mentation carries on (although for the arahant it is neither kusala nor aksuala). Jon #60520 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah, and Scott) - In a message dated 6/16/06 9:53:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Sink your teeth into this :-) > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ======================== This is an interesting article, Herman. Gritty. I've bookmarked it for careful reading. At the moment, though, I'd like to address just one little bit near the beginning. there is the following: ________________ Ariyo sammasamadhi is only found on five separate occasions in the Suttas. (11) Two of these occasions are simply the same bare definitions: > "There are: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness. The one-pointedness of mind > equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration ( > sammasamadhi) 'with its supports', and also 'with its accessories'."(12) ---------------------------- This definition itself is slightly perplexing to me when interpreted "abhidhammically." One-pointedness of mind is a condition, a mental function of collectedness, perhaps the momentary impulse/tendency to sustain attention on "the same" object, the current one. But, if that is the way the Buddha intended it in this definition, momentarily, I find it hard to understand what it would mean for it to be "equipped with" or accompanied by or supported by the other factors. I have no problem with the requirements that the moment of one-pointedness be accompanied by right view, right intention, right effort, and right mindfulness at that moment, but I have difficulty with right speech, right action, and right livelihood. In order for there to be a moment of "noble right concentration" that moment must also be one of right speech, right action, right livelihood? How does one engage in right speech in the moment? What momentary "action" is samma? How does one engage in right livelihood in the moment? And even if "right speech" were just *intention* towards right speech (or disgust at the opposite), and similarly for action and livelihood, need these be in force at that very moment for the concentration to be right? Surely speech, action, and livelihood cannot all be the object of awareness at a single moment. So, I have difficulty in seeing how this "noble right concentration" can be interpreted as a momentary matter. I am more than willing to be shown, however, how it *can* be so interpreted. With metta, Howard #60521 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:21 am Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane philofillet Hi Sarah, Herman and all > We can read,consider and reflect on different aspects of the teachings > until we understand them. Obviously, they are only understood more clearly > when awareness arises and develops, otherwise they're just words and texts > about things we don't really know about. I heard something from Phra Dhammadaro last night that I disagreed with. He said that if there is a text, and we understand one part and not another, it is the part we don't understand that we should study. I disagree. I strongly feel that if there is something we don't understand now, not only is it pointless to try to understand it by thinking harder, it is actually counterproductive, because our lobha rooted citta processes will leap at the opportunity to try to assign to it a meaning that was not intended - lobha will lead us down the pleasant sunny lane of wrong understanding yet again. I often think of a metaphor I came up with - toss it in the air, give understanding a chance to swoop down and grab it, but if it doesn't let it drop. But of course that could be wrong. Maybe knotty problems can be unknotted by pressing the mind to them. I strongly doubt it, though. Phil #60522 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Roots of Good and Evil, no 13. nilovg Hi Mike, I would say it is about natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya-paccaya). Greed is accumulated and conditions greed again and again. It can even motivate akusala kamma patha. Yes it is about sankhaarakkhandha. This sutta is not about kamma producing result, rather about accumulating defilements that condition the arising of defilements again which can motivate kamma. Thus, vipaakacittas, produced by kamma, experience an unpleasant object or pleasant object, and this gives rise to defilements. These again motivate kamma. We read in the Visuddhimagga: <298. 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): here formations and becoming are the 'round of kamma'. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the 'round of defilements'. Consciousness, mentality-materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the 'round of result'. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as the round of defilements is not cut off.> When we are impatient defilements increase. Also when an object is pleasant we may be impatient, no khanti. Nina. op 16-06-2006 20:37 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: Interesting--this is all about accumulation isn't it, accumulated kamma, the fourth aggregate? There are, O monks, three causes for the origin (kamma): greed, hatred and delusion. From greed, O monks, no greedlessness will arise; it is greed that arises from greed. #60523 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane upasaka_howard Hi, all - A bit more ... In a message dated 6/17/06 9:45:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > I have no problem with the requirements that the moment of > one-pointedness be accompanied by right view, right intention, right effort, > and > right mindfulness at that moment, but I have difficulty with right speech, > right > action, and right livelihood. In order for there to be a moment of "noble > right concentration" that moment must also be one of right speech, right > action, > right livelihood? How does one engage in right speech in the moment? What > momentary "action" is samma? How does one engage in right livelihood in the > moment? > And even if "right speech" were just *intention* towards right speech (or > disgust at the opposite), and similarly for action and livelihood, need > these be > in force at that very moment for the concentration to be right? Surely > speech, > action, and livelihood cannot all be the object of awareness at a single > moment. So, I have difficulty in seeing how this "noble right concentration" > can > be interpreted as a momentary matter. > > ===================== One more thought as to what right speech, action, and livelihood could mean "in the moment": During any time period in which "one" is continuously engaged in these three, one could say with some justification that s/he is engaged in them at each moment. (By analogy, think of a time period during which a vehicle is moving along a roadway: At each instant, the vehicle is in motion.) But that still is problematical with regard to the noble-right-concentration matter, for it would require that a moment at which such concentration is in effect falls within a period during which, at every moment, there is one-pointedness, right speech, right action, and right livelihood in effect, which for one thing, suggests simultaneous multiple objects of consciousness. Moreover, relying on the understanding of "right livelihood" Jon gave on DSG, at each moment there must have been the resisting of an inclination or thought of engaging in wrong livelihood, which is a strange requirement. In short, this whole matter of interpreting the given definition of 'noble right concentration' as an "ultimate" one and not a conventional one presents grave difficulties for me. I suspect that the Buddha was speaking quite conventionally here - as he often does - and that the "unpacking" of this conventional speech is a much more complex matter than the simple attempt to interpret the Buddha's definition here as an instance of paramattha vaca. With metta, Howard #60524 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:51 am Subject: Brief Comment Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane upasaka_howard Hi, all - The more I think about this matter, the more I am convinced that the problem lies not in thinking in terms of citta/vi~n~nana (the basic operation of awareness) and cetasikas (other, concomitant, mental operations, i.e., vedana, sa~n~na, and sankharakkhandhas), nor in thinking of them as being capable of being in effect at single points in time, but in thinking in terms of discrete time-packets. By slavishly adhering to this conceptual freeze-frame picture, I believe we box ourselves in, painting ourselves into a conceptual corner in which we are trapped. I know this is contrary to the received commentarial view, and I know that many on DSG will consider this "heresy". I'm sorry, folks - but this is my perspective. I seriously think that the packet view creates difficulties without any saving grace except for being conceptually pretty, which I do think it is, and thus appealing to "theory types" (such as me). With metta, Howard #60525 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane scottduncan2 Dear All, "This is an interesting article, Herman. Gritty. I've bookmarked it for careful reading." I've read the Brahmali essay before. Two things to consider: "The result is that the Commentaries back-read a later concept into the Suttas themselves." "...it might be reasonably asked why the Commentaries would mistakenly reinterpret the jhaana/samaadhi of central Sutta passages in terms of the later Abhidhamma concept of lokuttarajjhaana and thereby considerably distort the message of the former...These passages concern the future of the Dhamma and, in particular, they mention how a reduced respect for samaadhi is a condition for the decline of the Buddha's teaching as a whole." 1) The author is coming from an anti-Commentarial/anti-Abhidhamma perspective. This agenda likely informs his views. Discussing lokuttara is secondary to making his point regarding the Commentaries and the Abhidhamma. 2) To suggest that the Commentarial clarification of samaadhi/jhaana is "reduced respect for samaadhi" makes little sense, since what the clarification seems to do is to suggest that the attainment of jhaana is not as easily done as all that. It seems to me that this preserves the integrity of the teaching. Sincerely, Scott. #60526 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] atta-vaadupaadaana. nilovg Dear Han, thank you for the texts. You are right. I looked at PED attan, for atta-vaadupaadaana, and they give many texts. It is translated as soul theory. I have no time now to check these. I looked at Topics of Abh (This is Abhidhammattha Sangaha and Commentary) and found on p. 260 that it is the same as sakkaya di.t.thi. I understood that sakkaya di.t.thi condiitons all the other kinds of wrong views. Nina. op 17-06-2006 03:08 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: Quote [Upaadaana: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhaa, q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging (kaamupaadaana), clinging to views (ditthupaadaana), clinging to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupaadaana), clinging to the personaljty-belief (atta-vaadupaadaana). #60527 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:57 am Subject: The Abhidhamma Framework - My Understanding upasaka_howard Hi, all - I understand Abhidhamma as describing an experiential state, or "mindstate", as the way "ones" experience is at a point in time. As I see it, at any time (or, as it is more often said, "on any occasion"), there are in effect the awareness of an object (nama or rupa) and a host of other mental operations associated with that object, and these, taken together, constitute the "state" of the namarupic flow at that time. (The sutta framework, instead of speaking of citta and cetasikas, speaks of the five khandhas, or of the ayatanas.) The Dhammasangani describes a large number of cetasikas, listing specific ones but allowing for more, and it characterizes states along various lines including such "morality" characteristics as kusala and akusala, sobhana, and so on, and it also discusses to some extent relations holding among these consti tuents, while other books go into further detail, the Patthana, discussing inter-state relations. I'm not aware of the Abhidhamma describing a state as constituting a discrete, static "packet" of fixed character and occurring during a well-delimited time interval of some brief but non-zero duration. It is my impression that reifying states into discrete time-packets during which nothing changes except for (undetailed) stages of arising, stasis, and decline is something that does not appear in the books of the Abhidhamma, but only in commentaries. I stand to be corrected on this. With metta, Howard #60528 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn Hallo Jon, all You did not answer my question how you see the connection between "wrong view" and "ignorance", the first nidana of D.O. In stead of that you said: "As Nina explained in the 'Cetasikas' thread: …" Exact, and this thread is NOT about cetasikas and especially not about words as lobha, moha, and most especially not about 'akusala'; this thread is about Dependent Origination in which other terms are used of which it's not sure if they mean exactly the same as the Abhidhamma-terms and in which the dynamic relation bnetween those terms if possibly not exactly the same; so that one should be very carefull to translate the D.O. terms in the Abhidhamma systematics. Some days ago I quoted "8 => 9. Craving as a determinant for clinging: As desire becomes stronger it develops into clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation, creating AN ATTITUDE TOWARD AND EVALUATION OF THE OBJECT OF DESIRE (with vibhavatanha, a negative evaluation will be formed). A fixed position is adopted towards things: if there is attraction it precipitates a binding effect, an identification with the object of attraction. Whatever is connected with that object seems to be good. When there is repulsion, the object of that repulsion seems to affront the self. Any adopted position towards these things tends to reinforce clinging, which will be directed toward, and in turn reinforce the value of: Sense objects (kama); Ideas and beliefs (ditthi); Systems, models, practices and so on (silavatta); The belief in a self (attavada) to either attain or be thwarted from its desires." (capitals me) Source: "Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality" by P. A. Payutto Nina said she had problem with a language of this statement; while to me it's very clear and helpfull. How about you? More general my question is: do you want to discuss D.O. within the frame of reference and the terminology of D.O. ? Or do you want to start again the tape I've heard so many times in DSG? And because there has been a repetition of arguments in messages between KenO, Nina, Sarah, you and me about 8=> 9 of D.O., I prefer to discuss further about 9=>10 of D.O as started in #60497: "dependent on upadana (clinging, grasping) arises bhava (becoming, existence)" Metta Joop #60529 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Abhidhamma Framework - My Understanding egberdina Hi Howard, How I hate it when my son has an early morning start at McDonalds. Don't they know it is freezing cold out there, and that I like my bed? Anyways... > I understand Abhidhamma as describing an experiential state, or > "mindstate", as the way "ones" experience is at a point in time. As I see it, at any > time (or, as it is more often said, "on any occasion"), there are in effect > the awareness of an object (nama or rupa) and a host of other mental operations > associated with that object, and these, taken together, constitute the > "state" of the namarupic flow at that time. (The sutta framework, instead of > speaking of citta and cetasikas, speaks of the five khandhas, or of the ayatanas.) > The Dhammasangani describes a large number of cetasikas, listing specific ones > but allowing for more, and it characterizes states along various lines > including such "morality" characteristics as kusala and akusala, sobhana, and so on, > and it also discusses to some extent relations holding among these consti > tuents, while other books go into further detail, the Patthana, discussing > inter-state relations. > I'm not aware of the Abhidhamma describing a state as constituting a > discrete, static "packet" of fixed character and occurring during a > well-delimited time interval of some brief but non-zero duration. It is my impression > that reifying states into discrete time-packets during which nothing changes > except for (undetailed) stages of arising, stasis, and decline is something that > does not appear in the books of the Abhidhamma, but only in commentaries. I > stand to be corrected on this. > I agree with what you say. I still have not read any of the Abhidhamma first hand, but it is becoming clearer to me that what I previously had taken to be an Abhidhamma view is actually an Abhidhamma commentary view. So while I may have voiced opposition to what I believed came from the Abhidhamma, that turns out to have been quite misplaced, most times. But all this reading I am having to do only to find that simply stated ideas have been misapprehended over time is not without effect. I find myself at a cross-roads at the moment. I know that I must be involved in dsg discussions at an unwise level, because I find samadhi practice becoming increasingly unsamadhi-like. I have resolved to see if I can find a way of participating in dsg discussions so that samadhi becomes possible again, otherwise I will have to make the obvious decision. Kind Regards Herman #60530 From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] atta-vaadupaadaana. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), Thank you very much for your kind explanation. Yes, Sayadaw U Nyanissara also said that sakkaaya ditthi can condition all 62 false views. Respectfully, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > thank you for the texts. You are right. > I looked at PED attan, for atta-vaadupaadaana, and > they give many texts. It is translated as soul > theory. I have no time now to check these. > I looked at Topics of Abh (This is Abhidhammattha > Sangaha and Commentary) and found on p. 260 that it > is the same as sakkaya di.t.thi. > I understood that sakkaya di.t.thi condiitons all > the other kinds of wrong views. > Nina. #60531 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wissenschaftslehre? Conditions. ksheri3 Nina, In order to get the most for mymoney, sortofspeak, I'm trying to print the 66 pages in a different format to see if I get the same effect: printing style used may've caused the insight I got from it because it was a "slower" style and by taking away the enclosures used in your style I make it into a continuous pc. of literature which may cause me to read too fast through it and skim over the insight available. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Colette, > good to see you. > op 13-06-2006 21:49 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > How's trix? > ------------ > N: our queen Beatrix is amazing, a great example for us all. She does not > think of herself. > --------- > Be that as it may I look forward to > reading: > > "THE CONDITIONALITY OF LIFE IN THE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS..." > -------- > > N: I am glad you are interested. Just now on our Visuddhimagga thread Larry > and I deal with conditions, it may interest you. > Nina. #60532 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wissenschaftslehre? Conditions. ksheri3 Dear Nina, I laughed continuously upon getting to page six (on my printout it starts: "or cry, when we are attached or worried, there are conditions for such moments. The Paiihana helps us to understand the deep underlying motives for our behaviour and..." I still laugh, mostly smile though, when I pick this material up. When I say that I laughed continuously I mean that I couldn't believe that I've found another person that actually has the ability to see what I see and one of the only things that seperate us is that of WORDS. I tend to leave myself A LOT OF NEGOTIATING room so I tend to use a lot of coloqualisms, slang, etc, as a means of getting to The Root Understanding. It's a guerrilla warfare tactic where I secure the available means of escape as a way to avoid entrapment, but it also gives me a lot of other opportunities as well. And no I am not at all afraid of admitting my own personal ignorance, I hold it out in front of myself as a way of telling people that it really isn't my fault if anything bad happens since we are all aware that I am ignorant and need to learn. ;) It will take a few days but I thank you for writing such a marvelous piece of foundational equipment. It's almost as good as any PREFACE would be for a book but the context isn't exactly the same now is it, thus CAUSES & CONDITIONS has it's play. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Colette, > good to see you. > op 13-06-2006 21:49 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > How's trix? > ------------ > N: our queen Beatrix is amazing, a great example for us all. She does not > think of herself. > --------- > Be that as it may I look forward to > reading: > > "THE CONDITIONALITY OF LIFE IN THE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS..." > -------- > > N: I am glad you are interested. Just now on our Visuddhimagga thread Larry > and I deal with conditions, it may interest you. > Nina. #60533 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane egberdina Hi Howard, I must put more effort into finding a point of disagreement with you. I have appearances of oppositeness to keep up, you know :-) On 17/06/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > This is an interesting article, Herman. Gritty. I've bookmarked it for > careful reading. > At the moment, though, I'd like to address just one little bit near > the beginning. there is the following: > ________________ > Ariyo sammasamadhi is only found on five separate occasions in the Suttas. > (11) Two of these occasions are simply the same bare definitions: > > "There are: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right > > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness. The one-pointedness of mind > > equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration ( > > sammasamadhi) 'with its supports', and also 'with its accessories'."(12) > ---------------------------- > This definition itself is slightly perplexing to me when interpreted > "abhidhammically." One-pointedness of mind is a condition, a mental function of > collectedness, perhaps the momentary impulse/tendency to sustain attention on > "the same" object, the current one. But, if that is the way the Buddha > intended it in this definition, momentarily, I find it hard to understand what it > would mean for it to be "equipped with" or accompanied by or supported by the > other factors. I have no problem with the requirements that the moment of > one-pointedness be accompanied by right view, right intention, right effort, and > right mindfulness at that moment, but I have difficulty with right speech, right > action, and right livelihood. In order for there to be a moment of "noble > right concentration" that moment must also be one of right speech, right action, > right livelihood? How does one engage in right speech in the moment? What > momentary "action" is samma? How does one engage in right livelihood in the moment? > And even if "right speech" were just *intention* towards right speech (or > disgust at the opposite), and similarly for action and livelihood, need these be > in force at that very moment for the concentration to be right? Surely speech, > action, and livelihood cannot all be the object of awareness at a single > moment. So, I have difficulty in seeing how this "noble right concentration" can > be interpreted as a momentary matter. I am more than willing to be shown, > however, how it *can* be so interpreted. > > I have the same reservations as you do about the momentary interpretation of path factors and the like. We differ in that I am less likely to want to consider commentarial takes on the matter. Kind Regards Herman #60534 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane egberdina Hi Sarah, You are very wise (surprising, really, for a girl :-)) > > If you'd like to ask about the relevance of any other detailed topics > (such as the one on cula-sotapannas)or why I'm discussing any points in > particular, please ask anytime. It's always helpful to bring the relevance > back to the present moment. > I have no doubt that things get discussed for good reasons. We all have different things that interest us. Kind Regards Herman #60535 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:18 pm Subject: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Practise. scottduncan2 Dear All, In A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, near the beginning of the chapter on "The Stages of Vipassanaa," Acharn Boriharnwanaket writes of "Knowledge of the difference between naama and ruupa" (naama-ruupa- pariccheda-~na.na) as the first stage: "Mahaa-kusula citta ~naa.na-sampayutta arises and clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of ruupa as they appear one at a time. The objects constituting 'the world' appear as devoid of self. At that moment there is no attaa-sa~n~na (wrong remembrance of self), which used to remember or perceive realities as a 'whole,' conceived as 'the world.' There begins to be right remembrance of the realities which appear as anattaa. Satipa.t.thaana should continue to be aware of all kinds of naama and ruupa, in addition to those realised at the moment of vipassanaa ~naa.na. When there is awareness of realities, pa~n~na should consider again and again anattaa-sa~n~na penetrated at the moment vipassanaa-~na.naa. Other wise attaa-sa~n~na, which has been accumulated for a long time in the cycle of birth and death, cannot be eradicated," (p.325). In the Visuddhimaaga, Chapter XVIII: "A man who is desirous of fulfilling [the discernment of name (naama) and form (ruupa)], and who is progressing in calm should first of all rise from one or other of the jhaanas of the realm of form, or of the formless...and seize by way of characteristic, function and so on, the jhaana factors, such as applied thinking (vitakko) and the states associated therewith. Having seized all of them he should fix them as *name* (naama) in the sense of (naming or) bending, owing to their tendency to (mane, or to) bend towards the object...so the ascetic, considering the name and making search 'Depending on what does this name proceed?'...thus he sees form (ruupa). And he fixes all these as form, owing to their liability to change. Then he fixes name and form briefly thus: 'Name' has the characteristic of bending, 'form' has the characteristic of changing," (pp. 708-709, Pe Maung Tin trans.). I'd appreciate it if one might be able to provide a phenomenological and practical description of this particular practise: how one actually proceeds in putting herself in the way of naamas and ruupas for the distinguishing. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. #60536 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye egberdina Hi Scott, Thank you for post. No need to apologise. I have this crazy belief that honesty, no matter how unpleasant, is preferable to lies, no matter how pleasant :-) > > Dear Herman, > > May I answer this last question first and come back to the others? > > H: "It might help you to answer yourself this question. What is your > > purpose in interacting with me? What would you like to be an outcome > of our discussions?" > > Somewhere in all these other feelings that arise at times in response > to your squiggles on the screen, is the desire to perhaps help you > with your wrong views. I know that could sound totally grandiose and > smug but you asked the question. I'd like to help you where I see you > are going wrong. I am the worst source of help in this regard but for > some reason it seems that I can just see where you're off-base. > > So I guess that is what I would like the outcome of our discussions to > be: You somehow going, "Oh man, I've been missing the point, now I get > it." > > I know that I hope to learn things from others here. Within this > group there is so much Dhamma understanding that I wish you could take > advantage of it rather than, to use what is, I think, an Old Testament > idiom, simply "kicking against the pricks." Wouldn't it be a relief to find out that you are powerless to do anything about the views of others? I like the following from AN 2:11 "Bhikkhus, there are two reasons for the arising of wrong view. What two? Another's words and unwise thinking. Bhikkhus, there are two reasons for the arising of right view. What two? Another's words and wise thinking. " You cannot give me your right view, nor are you in danger from my wrong view. What you and I are in danger of is our own unwise consideration of whatever is seen and heard. And when have we considered unwisely? Whenever what is pleasurable, painful or neutral is seen other than dukkha, anicca and anatta. You speak in praise of the quantity of Dhamma understanding available to you here at dsg. Unfortunately, any Dhamma understanding is always going to be your own. If understanding were transmissable, we'd all be Arahants courtesy of the Buddha's transmission. And quantity of teaching, without quality of understanding, is trivial. " Indeed ' brother, numerous are the teachings declared by me, thus : sermons in prose, sermons in verse and prose, exposition, songs, solemn sayings, my own utterances, stories of (former) births, talks about the supernormal, discourses long and short of diverse nature.' But, even if a brother were to know the meaning and the text of a single stanza of four lines and has reached the complete righteousness of the Norm, 'he deserves to be called learned and well versed." So you are absolved from giving me your right view, and you are absolved from getting the right view from others here. Because these are impossibilties. What you and I are not absolved from, because it is not possible to remove the consequences of not doing it, is considering wisely. And until such time "the world is led by mind, is pulled along by mind, under mind's sway arisen doth it go on". Kind Regards Herman #60537 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Abhidhamma Framework - My Understanding upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/17/06 5:37:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > How I hate it when my son has an early morning start at McDonalds. > Don't they know it is freezing cold out there, and that I like my bed? > Anyways... > > > I understand Abhidhamma as describing an experiential state, or > > "mindstate", as the way "ones" experience is at a point in time. As I see > it, at any > > time (or, as it is more often said, "on any occasion"), there are in > effect > > the awareness of an object (nama or rupa) and a host of other mental > operations > > associated with that object, and these, taken together, constitute the > > "state" of the namarupic flow at that time. (The sutta framework, instead > of > > speaking of citta and cetasikas, speaks of the five khandhas, or of the > ayatanas.) > > The Dhammasangani describes a large number of cetasikas, listing specific > ones > > but allowing for more, and it characterizes states along various lines > > including such "morality" characteristics as kusala and akusala, sobhana, > and so on, > > and it also discusses to some extent relations holding among these consti > > tuents, while other books go into further detail, the Patthana, discussing > > inter-state relations. > > I'm not aware of the Abhidhamma describing a state as constituting a > > discrete, static "packet" of fixed character and occurring during a > > well-delimited time interval of some brief but non-zero duration. It is my > impression > > that reifying states into discrete time-packets during which nothing > changes > > except for (undetailed) stages of arising, stasis, and decline is > something that > > does not appear in the books of the Abhidhamma, but only in commentaries. > I > > stand to be corrected on this. > > > > I agree with what you say. I still have not read any of the Abhidhamma > first hand, but it is becoming clearer to me that what I previously > had taken to be an Abhidhamma view is actually an Abhidhamma > commentary view. So while I may have voiced opposition to what I > believed came from the Abhidhamma, that turns out to have been quite > misplaced, most times. But all this reading I am having to do only to > find that simply stated ideas have been misapprehended over time is > not without effect. > > I find myself at a cross-roads at the moment. I know that I must be > involved in dsg discussions at an unwise level, because I find samadhi > practice becoming increasingly unsamadhi-like. I have resolved to see > if I can find a way of participating in dsg discussions so that > samadhi becomes possible again, otherwise I will have to make the > obvious decision. ---------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, it's not a bad idea to engage in DSG conversations, and all other activities for that matter, including meditation especially, with detachment and with a genuine sense of fun (really!). I find that an important part of my practice is to keep reminding myself of how little in our lives is of critical importance! As that great sage John Lennon said: "Nuthin' is real - nuthin' to get hung about!" ;-) --------------------------------------- > > Kind Regards > > > Herman ==================== With metta, Howard #60538 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Roots of Good and Evil, no 13. mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Roots of Good and Evil, no 13. Hi Mike, I would say it is about natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya-paccaya). Greed is accumulated and conditions greed again and again. It can even motivate akusala kamma patha. Yes it is about sankhaarakkhandha. This sutta is not about kamma producing result, rather about accumulating defilements that condition the arising of defilements again which can motivate kamma. Very helpful, thanks. I must review the paccayas. mike #60539 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane lbidd2 Phil: "I heard something from Phra Dhammadaro last night that I disagreed with. He said that if there is a text, and we understand one part and not another, it is the part we don't understand that we should study. I disagree. I strongly feel that if there is something we don't understand now, not only is it pointless to try to understand it by thinking harder, it is actually counterproductive, because our lobha rooted citta processes will leap at the opportunity to try to assign to it a meaning that was not intended - lobha will lead us down the pleasant sunny lane of wrong understanding yet again. I often think of a metaphor I came up with - toss it in the air, give understanding a chance to swoop down and grab it, but if it doesn't let it drop. But of course that could be wrong. Maybe knotty problems can be unknotted by pressing the mind to them. I strongly doubt it, though." Hi Phil, I think the best way to solve problems is by mindfulness, looking again and again at whatever. If I make a mistake, sobeit, even that is just information. When I catch myself clinging to a view, even though the experience is painful it is an excellent opportunity to experience first-hand just how unnecessary clinging is. I've always liked Martin Luther's advice, "Sin boldly!" Larry #60540 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Practise. lbidd2 Scott: "I'd appreciate it if one might be able to provide a phenomenological and practical description of this particular practise: how one actually proceeds in putting herself in the way of naamas and ruupas for the distinguishing." Hi Scott, The best way to cultivate insight is to look and listen. It then just happens, more or less in a certain order. Larry #60541 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:23 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,84 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 84. (c) As to 'natural-decisive-support': the decisive-support is natural, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. Faith, virtue, etc., habitual to, one's own continuity are called natural. Or else, it is a decisive-support by nature, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. The meaning is that it is unmixed with object and proximity. It should be understood as variously divided up in the way beginning: 'Natural-decisive-support: with faith as decisive-support a man gives a gift, undertakes the precepts of virtue, does the duties of the Uposatha, arouses jhana, arouses insight, arouses the path, arouses direct-knowledge, arouses an attainment. With virtue ... With learning ... With generosity ... With understanding as decisive-support a man gives a gift ... arouses an attainment. Faith, virtue, learning, generosity, understanding, are conditions, as decisive-support condition for [the repeated arising of] faith, virtue, learning, generosity, understanding' (P.tn.1,165). So these things beginning with faith are natural-decisive-support since they are both natural and decisive-supports in the sense of a cogent reason. **************************** 84. pakatuupanissayo pana pakato upanissayo pakatuupanissayo. pakato naama attano santaane nipphaadito vaa saddhaasiilaadi upasevito vaa utubhojanaadi. pakatiyaa eva vaa upanissayo pakatuupanissayo, aaramma.naanantarehi asammissoti attho. tassa pakatuupanissayo ``saddha.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. siila.m, suta.m, caaga.m, pa~n~na.m upanissaaya daana.m deti...pe0... samaapatti.m uppaadeti. saddhaa, siila.m, suta.m, caago, pa~n~naa saddhaaya, siilassa, sutassa, caagassa, pa~n~naaya, upanissayapaccayena paccayo''tiaadinaa (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.423) nayena anekappakaarato pabhedo veditabbo. iti ime saddhaadayo pakataa ceva balavakaara.na.t.thena upanissayaa caati pakatuupanissayoti. #60542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Roots of Good and Evil, correction nilovg Hi Mike, A correction, this sutta is also about rebirth as the result of kamma. Thus, it is about the three rounds spinning forever. Vis. 298: 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): Nina. #60543 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Terse, very terse. L: "The best way to cultivate insight is to look and listen. It then just happens, more or less in a certain order." I'll try. Sincerely, Scott. #60544 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:22 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta dacostacharles Hi Matheesha, I hope I am not too late because I have to add my 2-cents: A more simplistic explanation of Anatta is selfless thinking. What I mean by this is unselfish and non-self-centered thinking. The best way to describe this is to use a child. At a very young age (1-5) children are just plane selfish and self-centered; so parents spend a lot of time trying to socialize (teach) this out of them - thus helping them to reach a level of Anatta. And then there is the philosophical explanation Howard gave next. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 16:00 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 6/9/06 7:16:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@hotmail. com writes: > I will be making a 1-1.5 hr speech on Anatta, to members of an > interfaith group in London, representing buddhism. This will be > followed by a discussion. > > What salient points should I include in it? > ======================= How nice! Congratulations! Here are a few points, in somewhat random order, I would consider making: 1) The conventional person is not nothing at all, but is not the solid, self-existent entity we usually think it is. (Then go into details, emphasizing the phenomena underlying the conventional person, and the impersonality of those phenomena.) 2) Generalize the foregoing: Everything we think of as a self-existent entity is either a mental construct, conceptually imputed on phenomena we think of as its parts or, if truly experienced as a distinguishable phenomenon (i.e., a nama or rupa) is, nonetheless, not a thing-in-itself, but exists only momentarily as a contingent happening, whose very existence is "borrowed" and conditional. 3) The cornerstone of anatta is dependent arising and conditionality. Go into this as much as the traffic will bear, and relate it to the emptiness, insubstantality, and the "middle-way" mode of existence as expressed in the Kaccayangota Sutta. You also might throw in a few quotes from the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata. With metta, Howard #60545 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:34 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta dacostacharles Hi Matheesha You should tell the good Father that both Tibetan and Zen schools of Buddhism are quite mystical (especially if you view God as Mind or reachable through the mind). Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 12:54 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Hi Joop, Sarah, >J: Quit the same description of anatta, in another discipline! Only not > with a soteriological but wit a scientific aim. Joop, thanks for that. I hadnt really thought about bringing in the scientific take on it, but now I think I will. The original talk was supposed to be part of a string of talks on mysticism in religion,but the good Father told me that since nothing mystical could be found in buddhism they decided to go with Anatta, LOL! Sarah, thanks for reminding me to put them at ease and language issues. Quite insightful of you. I was invited for another talk - a short (bed time?) story from the scriptures, something less theoretical, more emotional. I decided not to do it as I found out I'm not that good when it comes to emotionalism in buddhism! with metta, Matheesha #60546 From: "CalgaryMike" Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:16 pm Subject: Hello michael092956 Hi, I'm Mike and I just joined this group. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Can someone recommend a beginners type of group for me..?? Thanks, Mike Hi Matheesha You should tell the good Father that both Tibetan and Zen schools of Buddhism are quite mystical (especially if you view God as Mind or reachable through the mind). Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 12:54 To: dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Hi Joop, Sarah, >J: Quit the same description of anatta, in another discipline! Only not > with a soteriological but wit a scientific aim. Joop, thanks for that. I hadnt really thought about bringing in the scientific take on it, but now I think I will. The original talk was supposed to be part of a string of talks on mysticism in religion,but the good Father told me that since nothing mystical could be found in buddhism they decided to go with Anatta, LOL! <...> #60547 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Hi (Calgary) Mike, --- CalgaryMike wrote: > I'm Mike and I just joined this group. To tell you the truth, I have no > idea > what anyone is talking about. Can someone recommend a beginners type of > group for me..?? ..... S: Welcome to DSG and please be patient and give us a chance. Did you see this message of Scott's? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60487 I'm sure anyone from Calgary would understand what those Edmonton boys are on about:-). Other suggestions: 1. Introduce yourself, your interest in the Buddha's teachings and give us an idea of what you'd like to hear about or discuss. Basic questions are often the best. 2. For now, just ignore all threads which make little or no sense and focus on your own threads. 3. Go to the files section of DSG http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and scroll down to 'Useful Posts'. Here, scroll down to 'New to the list and new to Buddhism', also 'Abhidhamma-beginners', 'Kamma-beginners' and many more sections which may be relevant. [If it's all too much, just go to posts saved under 'zany' at the bottom:-)]. 4. If the Pali words are bugging you and you'd like to have help, consider printing out the simple Pali glossary in the files and having it next to your computer. 5. Keep asking people to clarify what they are talking about in simple language. You'll do everyone a favour. But we need an indication of what you're interested to have clarified first. If you give us a chance to offer you (and anyone else new to the list) a chance, you'll find a group of really friendly and helpful people who'll be glad to discuss the teachings with you anytime. Metta, Sarah ======= #60548 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra ken_aitch Hi Larry and Scott, ----------- L: > The best way to cultivate insight is to look and listen. It then just happens, more or less in a certain order. ----------- I'm not sure what you mean by that, Larry, but it sounds wrong. Looking and listening require a looker and a listener. There is no place for those illusory activities in the development of insight. There are only dhammas, and they are disinterestedly rolling on in accordance with conditions. ----------------- S: > In the Visuddhimaaga, Chapter XVIII: "A man who is desirous of fulfilling [the discernment of name (naama) and form (ruupa)], and who is progressing in calm should first of all rise from one or other of the jhaanas I'd appreciate it if one might be able to provide a phenomenological and practical description of this particular practise: how one actually proceeds in putting herself in the way of naamas and ruupas for the distinguishing. ------------------ It is just Abhidhamma in daily life, Scott. You have singled out the daily life of a jhana master (a person who can enter and exist jhana at will). In his case, just as for the rest of us, dhammas arise by conditions. None of them is a self, so as soon as there is the idea of "my practice" or "my insight" the development of insight has stopped. But even that moment of wrong practice can be known as it really is. Ken H #60549 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:41 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 477- Non-Aversion/Adosa (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa) ***** There are many opportunities for being impatient with people. We may be irritated about someone’s faults and mistakes, about his way of speech or his appearance. We may be irritated because someone moves slowly and is in our way when we are in a hurry. Most of the time we are concerned about ourselves but not about someone else. When we find ourselves important aversion can arise very easily and then there is no kindness. Selfishness and lack of consideration for others stands in the way of kindness. When there are conditions for kindness and patience there is peace of mind and then we can see the difference between kindness and the harsh moments of aversion. ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60550 From: Daniel Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:21 am Subject: Faith vs. Reason daniell@... Hi all, I am trying to attack the same issue that is stuck in my head from different points of view. Sorry if there is something repetitious in this. Faith and Reason are both two ways of knowing something, right? If I believe that there is god or if I have some reasons to think it, in both cases there is some "knowledge", some cognitive content, though they are of different types. What is the criteria? How does one proove a certain way of knowledge to be valid or invalid? Why is Reason more Valid than Faith? Yours, Daniel #60551 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... And mrs. Sujin jwromeijn Hallo Nina, Jon, Sarah, all There was something strange (to me) in the reaction of Nina and Jon on my question was was the difference between 'craving' and 'clinging" in 8 => 9 "Craving as a determinant for clinging" of Dependent Origination. A initial innocent question. Of course I knew the difference was only small, but it must be subtle and thus important. But your repeated answer "craving"="clinging"="lobha" surprised me. So I thought: well, let's have a look at their teacher, was is mrs. Sujin's opinion about it ? The term "Dependent Origination" hardly occurs in her book "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", only some short remarks about it in chapter 14 (and repeated in ch. 20): "The "Dependent Origination", "Paticca Samuppåda", which is the teaching of the arising of phenomena in dependence upon each other, can be considered under the aspect of the threefold cycle. Ignorance, avijjå, is the condition for the arising of kamma-formation, saòkhåra; this means that the cycle of defilement conditions the cycle of kamma." and: "The Buddha explained the Dhamma by different methods, for example, by way of the four paramattha dhammas, by way of the four noble Truths or by way of the "Dependent Origination". These different methods concern the dhammas that occur at each moment, also now, at this very moment." That's all, nothing general mentioned about the cycle of D.O. and nothing about nidana 8, 9. This gives me the temporary conclusion that mrs. Sujin (and Nina) don't use D.O., one of the methods of the Buddha; they prefer the other one: "by way of the four paramattha dhammas" (I think I prefer by way of the D.O.) Interesting is the last quoted remark of mrs. Sujin: " These different methods concern the dhammas that occur at each moment, also now, at this very moment." That means that mrs. Sujin prefers of the two applications of D.O. the one within one moment; and not the favorite of Buddhaghosa and the only one of many boddhaghosians: D.O. in three lifetimes! What do you think of this conclusions? Metta Joop #60552 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:08 am Subject: Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Eloquent, my good man, very eloquent. Thank you very much. H: "Wouldn't it be a relief to find out that you are powerless to do anything about the views of others?" Perhaps, except that this is untrue. I mean, yeah, there is no "me" and there is no "you" and things will arise when they do and all that and this is a powerlessness in a way. And conventionally, of course, it is axiomatic to the point of being a cliche that I can't have an influence over what happens inside of you. But allow me to go on... H: "I like the following from AN 2:11: 'Bhikkhus, there are two reasons for the arising of wrong view. What two? Another's words and unwise thinking. 'Bhikkhus, there are two reasons for the arising of right view. What two? Another's words and wise thinking. '" I like the above now too. The Pali: "Dveme bhikkhave paccayaa miccaadi.t.thiyaa uppaadaaya. Katame dve: parato ca ghoso, ayoniso ca manasikaaro... "Dveme bhikkhave paccayaa sammaadi.t.thiyaa uppaadaaya. Katame dve: parato ca ghoso, yoniso ca manasikaaro... I see where the terms for "right view" and "wrong view" in the text are framed each time by "uppada" and "paccaya." The former has the meaning of "coming into existence, appearance, or birth;" the latter of "ground, condition, foundation, support, or requisite." So I would take the question posed to be about the conditions that are in place to serve as the medium or soil out of which either right or wrong view are born or appear. The word "reason" was used in the above translation, which is also correct, but there is a wider sense implied in the Pali, it seems. Right or wrong view can and do arise out of conditions. If such conditions are posited, then, they exist. "Parato ca ghoso:" I'm weak in Pali, but I'll go ahead and embarass myself anyway because I'm learning something. I'm using the PTS PED (and, as those in the know will suggest, quite recklessly). "Parato" has the sense "from another, as regards others; on the other side of, away from, beyond; from the point of view of 'otherness' i.e. as strange or something alien, as an enemy." "Ghosa" is "shout, sound, utterance." So the conditions for the arising of either right view or wrong view are these: the strange and alien sounds from beyond. (Anatta, right?) Conventionally these are the utterances from another but there is this sense of strangeness or even threat implied. Clearly, what I utter, for example, can serve as a condition for your wrong or right view. When the conditions for the arising of a given thing are present, that thing will arise. The whole extract from the Sutta is about that which conditions right or wrong view. "Ayoniso/yoniso ca manisikaaro:" "Yoniso" has a meaning of "down to its origin or foundation; thoroughly, wisely, properly, judiciously." "Manasikaara" is, specifically, a cetasika, and one of the seven which are inseperable and always associated with consciousness. At this level of discourse manasikaara is, according to Nynanaponika, "prominent in advertence at the five sense-doors and the mind-door," and is "the mind's first confrontation with an object," serving the function of "bind[ing] the associated mental states to an object." It is part of the "first stage of the perceptual process" and is what "break[s] through [the stream] of bhavanga." So at a deep level, right or wrong view seems to start at the point of advertance, when an object is entering through the mind-door. Nyanaponika defines manasikaara as "attention, mental advertance, reflecting." There can be either wise or unwise attention. And I think, the situation that brings about right view has to be seen as very deeply complex. The sound can lead to reflection, which can go either way, as you point out below. H: "You cannot give me your right view, nor are you in danger from my wrong view. What you and I are in danger of is our own unwise consideration of whatever is seen and heard." I can give you a view, right or wrong. So can you me. And true, one's consideration can be either wise or unwise. You are wrong to think there is no danger, though, in my opinion. Wrong views exist and people adhere to them. H: "And when have we considered unwisely? Whenever what is pleasurable, painful or neutral is seen other than dukkha, anicca and anatta." Can you elaborate on this? I'm afraid it is sort of a general case. What do you mean specifically, if you don't mind? H: "You speak in praise of the quantity of Dhamma understanding available to you here at dsg. Unfortunately, any Dhamma understanding is always going to be your own. If understanding were transmissable, we'd all be Arahants courtesy of the Buddha's transmission. And quantity of teaching, without quality of understanding, is trivial." No, of course in this you state some truisms but I think you are wrong. Sorry. I guess you mean that understanding (pa~n~na) is an impersonal arising and can't be "transmitted." True. But this is a bit off-topic. Wrong views *can* be transmitted. If understanding is lacking, or if something else is mistaken for understanding, then this is a problem. Right view, as well, can be transmitted. This is called teaching. This is what the Buddha did. Understanding arose in those who had the appropriate conditions in place. H: "So you are absolved from giving me your right view, and you are absolved from getting the right view from others here. Because these are impossibilties. What you and I are not absolved from, because it is not possible to remove the consequences of not doing it, is considering wisely. And until such time 'the world is led by mind, is pulled along by mind, under mind's sway arisen doth it go on'." There is "right view," Herman, and as you know, it is not "mine" or "yours." What do you think? Thanks for your continued patience with me. Sincerely, Scott. #60553 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Faith vs. Reason upasaka_howard Hi, Daniel - In a message dated 6/18/06 9:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, daniell@... writes: > Hi all, > > I am trying to attack the same issue that is stuck in my head from > different > points of view. Sorry if there is something repetitious in this. > > > Faith and Reason are > both two ways of knowing something, right? If I believe that there is god > or > if I have some reasons to think it, in both cases there is some "knowledge", > some cognitive content, though they are of different types. > > What is the criteria? > How does one proove a certain way of knowledge to be valid or invalid? Why > is > Reason more Valid than Faith? > > Yours, Daniel > > ========================== Faith is not a means of obtaining knowledge. It is merely belief. The belief may be well founded, ill founded, or something in between. The sources of knowledge are direct experience, insight, and reasoning. The third of these, reasoning, is indirect, but it is a check on the others, and it may help in indicating where and how to look to obtain direct experience and insight. In any case, it is not a matter of reason being "more valid" than faith, because faith is not a knowledge tool at all. Faith may be blind, based on nothing more than wishes and emotional or aesthetic appeal, or it may be a confidence based on clear observation, investigation, and reasoning carried out by a calm, objective mind. One more thing about faith: The name 'faith' at times suggests belief that is clung to for dear life. That is not a "plus". We, of course, all have various beliefs, arrived at for various reasons. Beliefs, to the extent they are just beliefs and not irrefutable knowledge, should *not* be clung to, but held lightly, easily, with full realization that "I could be wrong!" With metta, Howard #60554 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello scottduncan2 Dear Calgary Mike, S: "Welcome to DSG and please be patient and give us a chance. Did you see this message of Scott's?" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60487 Don't let that dissuade you. Sarah loves hockey but may not know that the Calgary Flames and the Edmonton Oilers are not exactly pals. Welcome to the DSG. Sincerely, Scott. #60555 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hallo Jon, all > >You did not answer my question how you see the connection >between "wrong view" and "ignorance", the first nidana of D.O. >In stead of that you said: "As Nina explained in the 'Cetasikas' >thread: …" > A misunderstanding on my part. I thought you were asking about wrong view and ignorance in connection with the link between craving and clinging (tanhÄ?-paccayÄ? upÄ?dÄ?nam). The first link of DO is avijiÄ?-paccayÄ? sankhÄ?rÄ?: "Through ignorance are conditioned the sankhÄ?ras", so I'm not clear why you mention ignorance and wrong view. Would you miknd clarifying your questoin on this point. Thanks. In your earlier post you said: Joop: I'm interested in the connection between sensuous craving and clinging, because I try to get a deeper understanding in D.O. I think "Wrong view" does belong to "ignorance" (avijja), so somebody made a jump from nidana 8 to 1 in D.O. How do you see the connection between "wrong view" and "ignorance" and how do you see to connection between "wrong view" and "clinging" (upadana) ? I'm not sure what you have in mind when you refer to a jump from nidana 8 to nidana 1. Sorry if I'm being slow in catching on here. Just staying with this much of your post at this stage. Jon #60556 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra scottduncan2 Dear Ken H, Thanks for your reply. K: "It is just Abhidhamma in daily life, Scott. You have singled out the daily life of a jhana master (a person who can enter and exist jhana at will). In his case, just as for the rest of us, dhammas arise by conditions. None of them is a self, so as soon as there is the idea of "my practice" or "my insight" the development of insight has stopped. But even that moment of wrong practice can be known as it really is." Yeah, you're right. I'd not appreciated the fact that this was the practise of a jhaana master. Good point. Larry wrote to just look and listen. I'm still wondering: What will one see and hear? How will this appear different from ordinary looking and listening? One day, I was looking at a "tree" and thinking about breathing an atmosphere that had passed through that tree as had my exhalation passed through it and it seemed for a moment - I mean an instant - that everything was all grainy, like a sort of weird photograph and slowed down. It was not an acid flashback. I'm not trying to cling to weird experiences in some new-age sort of way. Does "seeing" and "hearing" have a different quality when one has reached the first stage as noted earlier? Sincerely, Scott. #60557 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn Hallo Jon Well, the misunderstandings are in the second or third power now. I was not interested in 'wrong view" as such, only I know it is one of the possible object of clinging. And when you start to talk about "wrong view" as such I (not an expert on the subject of wrong view) thought: wrong view and ignorance (the first step of D.O) have to do with each other, why does Jon jump to wrong view = (more or less) ignorance? (see Avijja Sutto below) That was the reason of my question which is, I repeat, a result of my thinking within the frame of reference of Dependent Origination. All I wanted to know was: why do you start talking about "wrong view" as such? But my happiness does not depend on the answer to this question! I'm more interested in your reaction to my Payutto quote in #60528; my interest in "bhava" in #60497 and mostly on my general remark about D.O in relation to mrs. Sujin in #60551. Perhaps to much questions for a discussion. Metta Joop SN 45.1 Avijja Sutta (Ignorance) … The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern. In an unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. …" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > #60558 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra lbidd2 Ken H: "Looking and listening require a looker and a listener. There is no place for those illusory activities in the development of insight. There are only dhammas, and they are disinterestedly rolling on in accordance with conditions." Hi Aitch, No, you're wrong! Looking and listening don't require a looker or a listener. Maybe you need to get out more. Why don't you go to Bangkok and listen to the dhamma;-) Larry #60559 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:32 pm Subject: the abhidhamma of existentialism lbidd2 Hi all, I recently read a book called "Tete a Tete" about Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir and their life together. I liked it so much I started reading their philosophy and came up with this view: The dictum 'existence precedes essence' could be read as a kind of circular cause and effect principle in terms of dependent arising as 'kamma result precedes kamma formations'. Kamma formation is regarded as the 'essence' of what it means to be human and is bound up with action. Action is freedom. Paradoxically, freedom is suffering (anguish) because it cuts one off from the other. Perhaps this freedom in exile is rooted in the difference between kamma result and kamma formation. Kamma formation is more of a reaction to kamma result than it is a simple action. And the essence of reaction is separation. Hence, dukkha. If anyone is familiar with existentialism I would be interested in what you have to say about it. Coincidentally, the movie "The Misfits" with Marilyn Monroe and Clark Gable was on tv last night. Very existentialist. I noticed Arthur Miller wrote the screenplay. He gave MM some good, but unhappy, lines. I believe she committed suicide before it was completed. Larry #60560 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Abhidhamma Framework - My Understanding egberdina Hi Howard, On 18/06/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 6/17/06 5:37:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > hhofmeister@... writes: > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > As I see it, it's not a bad idea to engage in DSG conversations, and > all other activities for that matter, including meditation especially, with > detachment and with a genuine sense of fun (really!). I find that an important > part of my practice is to keep reminding myself of how little in our lives is of > critical importance! As that great sage John Lennon said: "Nuthin' is real - > nuthin' to get hung about!" ;-) > --------------------------------------- > This sounds like great advice to me. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman #60561 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? ashkenn2k Hi Joop Definition of bhava, Dispeller of Delusion 1 pg 224 <<855 (1)Herein, it exists (bhavati) thus it is existence. Duvidhena (137.1) ("in two ways") means due to occurence in two forms. Or duvidhena is instrumental in the place of nominative, and duvidho is what is meant. Atthi ("there is"): there exists. The kamma-process itself as existence is kamma-bhavo. The rebirth process itself as existence is (uppatti-bhavo). And here the rebirth process exists, thus it is existence. But just as "the arising of Buddhas is bliss" (Dh 194) is said becuse its causing bliss, so kamma should be understood as existence, being named after its fruit, because of causing existence>> <<861..........the repetition has a purpose because in the former case [*my note: refering to formations] it was as a condition for rebirth-linking here [in this existence] due to past kamma, while in this case [*my note: refering to bhava]it is as a condition for rebirth linking in the future due to present kamma.......>> SN 12.2, og 535 (Ven Bodhi) <<"And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form sphere existence, formless sphere existence. This is called existece*.>> * Spk: in the exposition of existence, sense-sphere existence is both kamma existence (kammabhava) and rebirth existence (upapattibhava). Of these, kamma-existence is just kamma that leads to sense sphere existence; for the kamma, being the cause for rebirth-existence in that relams, is spoken of as "existence" by assigning the name of the result to the cause. Rebirth existence is the set of five kammicaly acquired aggregates produced by that kamma; for this is called "existence" inteh sense that "it comes to be there". The same method of explanation applies to form sphere and formless sphere existence (except that in formless sphere rebirth existence only the four mental aggregates exists). Cheers Ken O #60562 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:16 am Subject: Sacred Sights ... ; - ] bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: New Buddhist Slide Show and Image Gallery: Buddha images: 366 pictures. Dhamma images: 442 pictures. Sangha people: 329 pictures. Sacred sites: 182 pictures. Buddhist ceremonies: 30 pictures. Buddhist wallpapers: 42 pictures. Sri Lanka: 113 pictures. Books, graphics & maps: 116 pictures. All images available in 3 sizes: 150, 640 and 1080 pixel. http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/ Enjoy these Serene Sunday Views! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> #60563 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Roots of Good and Evil, correction mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Roots of Good and Evil, correction Hi Mike, A correction, this sutta is also about rebirth as the result of kamma. Thus, it is about the three rounds spinning forever. Vis. 298: 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): Sure, thanks again. mike ---------- #60564 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra ken_aitch Hi Scott (and Larry), Whenever we wonder what dhammas will look like, sound like, and so on, we almost inevitably fall into either the eternalist, or the annihilationist, camp. You will probably imagine insight as something that happens to you: I will probably imagine it as something that happens to someone else. :-) I may have been too quick in criticising Larry's advice. I took him to be saying that insight could be attained by trying. That would be the eternalist's advice. The annihilationist would tell us to just do what we liked and let insight happen by itself. As the Ogha Sutta says, the flood is crossed, not by striving, and not by standing still. --------------- S: > I'm still wondering: What will one see and hear? How will this appear different from ordinary looking and listening? --------------- As your quote from Survey said, "the objects seen as constituting 'the world' appear as devoid of a self." As for wondering how something would appear as 'devoid of self' I think we are on the right track whenever we are contented just learning about the dhammas that are arising now. ----------------------- S: > One day, I was looking at a "tree" and thinking about breathing an atmosphere that had passed through that tree as had my exhalation passed through it and it seemed for a moment - I mean an instant - that everything was all grainy, like a sort of weird photograph and slowed down. It was not an acid flashback. I'm not trying to cling to weird experiences in some new-age sort of way. Does "seeing" and "hearing" have a different quality when one has reached the first stage as noted earlier? ------------------------- I doubt that the concepts of what has been seen or heard will be any different. As for the actual rupas that are seen or heard, I don't know. I believe (having been told by someone at DSG) that a vipassana practitioner would know exactly what a rupa looked like. But how would he describe it to you or me? Probably the same way the Abhidhamma describes it now, don't you think? Ken H #60565 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > >H: The way in which lokuttara notions lead to new doctrines without > any > > > basis in the Suttas or reality is especially pronounced when jhanas > > > become lokutarrajjhanas in the hands of the abhidhammikas. > > > > .... > > S: Pls elaborate. I don't believe 'jhanas become lokuttarajjhanas', > rather > > when lokuttara cittas arise, they are said to be 'lokuttara jhana' > cittas > > because they 'burn up' defilements when they arise. (Jhana means to > 'burn > > up'. When mundane jhanas arise, they 'burn up' defilements > temporarily, > > when lokuttara jhana cittas arise, they 'burn up' completely.) > > ... > > > Sink your teeth into this :-) > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 ..... S: Thanks, Herman. I did (at least, I read the first few pages). I believe there a number of inaccuracies and misunderstandings, each one of which would take time to discuss. If there's anything or any sutta he refers to in particular which you'd like to discuss in this regard, go ahead and quote the relevant paragraph. As we'll be going away in a few days, the discussion may not get very far and it may turn into one of those picky threads you dislike, but you're welcome. Here's a comment I came across the other day that R.Gethin makes in the preface to his both 'The Buddhist Path to Awakening': "One of the things I suggested in my conclusion was that before we throw away the Abhidhamma and the commentaries, we need to be very sure we have understood what it is they are saying, and how it is they are actually interpreting the earlier texts. What prompted that suggestion then was a sense that in dealing witht he theory of the Buddhist path in the Nikayas scholars had tended to dsimiss the views of the Abhidhamma and commentaries without fully understanding them." Metta, Sarah ======== #60566 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:12 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 478- Non-Aversion/Adosa (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa)contd ***** Kindness, mettå, is a form of adosa which is directed towards living beings. Patience, as we have seen, is another aspect of adosa. There can be patience with regard to beings and also with regard to objects which are not beings, thus with regard to all objects which can be experienced through the six doors. When there is aversion towards unpleasant objects there is no patience. When we have to endure hardship it may be difficult not to have aversion, but when non-aversion arises we can endure what is unpleasant. The Buddha exhorted the monks to endure unpleasant objects. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, no. 2, Discourse on All the Cankers) that the Buddha spoke about different ways of getting rid of the cankers and he explained that one of these ways is endurance. It is to be understood that the cankers cannot be eradicated unless right understanding is developed. We read: * "And what, monks, are the cankers to be got rid of by endurance? In this teaching, monks, a monk, wisely reflective, is one who bears cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadfly, mosquito, wind and sun, creeping things, ways of speech that are irksome, unwelcome; he is of a character to bear bodily feelings which, arising, are painful, acute, sharp, shooting, disagreeable, miserable, deadly. Whereas, monks, if he lacked endurance, the cankers which are destructive and consuming might arise. But because he endures, therefore these cankers which are destructive and consuming are not. These, monks, are called the cankers to be got rid of by endurance." ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60567 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn Hallo Ken Thanks, Ken for this information. About Buddhaghosa (author of Dispeller of Delusion) see my next message Do you have an opinion how bhava (defined in your quotes) is playing her role in the dynamics of D.O., between 9, upadana en 11, jati? Metta Joop #60568 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... And mrs. Sujin jwromeijn Hallo all In # 60551 I said: " That means that mrs. Sujin prefers of the two applications of D.O. the one within one moment; and not the favorite of Buddhaghosa and the only one of many boddhaghosians: D.O. in three lifetimes!" That was not just a sweeping statement; I explain by a quote of Payutto (below) that is in my eyes important. Two other remarks on this topic: - Two or three applications of the D.O. principle? There is DO seen as a lifetime-to-lifetime (aka three lifetimes) process There is DO during one mind-moment, the Abhiodhamma approach There is DO during one lifetime, without exact timescale (from several times a day to several times in ones life) The second and the third are both an alternative to the dominant first o ne, but not the same! - mrs Sujin is speaking of three different methods: by way of the four paramattha dhammas, by way of the four noble Truths or by way of the DO. I think the Four Noble Truths can be combined with both other two methods. Metta Joop A NOTE ON INTERPRETING THE PRINCIPLE OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION It has been mentioned that in the commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka (Sammohavinodani), the principle of Dependent Origination is shown occurring entirely within the space of one mind moment. This point needs to be reiterated because modern study of the teaching (at least in traditional scholastic circles) interprets it completely on a lifetime-to-lifetime basis. Accordingly, when there are attempts to interpret the Dependent Origination cycle as a process occurring in everyday life, those who adhere to the traditional interpretations are want to dismiss them as baseless and in contradiction to the scriptures. For mutual comfort and ease of mind, therefore, I have included this reference to show that such an interpretation is not without scriptural basis. Indeed, it is worth noting that what evidence there is for this interpretation is possibly only a shadow from the past which has become well-nigh forgotten, and which is still in existence only because the Tipitaka stands as an irrefutable reference. The commentarial description of the cycle of Dependent Origination as a lifetime-to-lifetime process, which is generally taken to be the authority, comes from the Visuddhimagga, written by Acariya Buddhaghosa around the fifth century AD. However, there is another commentary which deals with the principle of Dependent Origination and that is the Sammohavinodani mentioned above. The explanation here is divided into two sections, the first dealing with the principle of Dependent Origination on a lifetime-to-lifetime basis, as in the Visuddhimagga, and the second explaining it as an event occurring within one mind moment. The Sammohavinodani is also the work of Acariya Buddhaghosa, and is believed to have been written after the Visuddhimagga. … The explanation of the principle of Dependent of Origination given in the Visuddhimagga, unlike the Sammohavinodani, contains only an explanation of the principle on a lifetime-to-lifetime basis. This explanation is almost identical to that given in the Sammohavinodani. This being the case, it may be asked, "Why is there no explanation of the principle of Dependent Origination in one mind moment given in the Visuddhimagga?" It may be that even in the time of Buddhaghosa scholastic circles generally described the principle of Dependent Origination on a lifetime-to lifetime basis. It may also be that the author felt more comfortable with this interpretation because, difficult as it was, as he noted in his introduction, still there existed the commentaries of the teachers handed down till that time. The one-mind-moment interpretation, on the other hand, was not only very difficult, but had also disappeared form scholastic circles. This can be surmised from the Sammohavinodani itself, where the description of this interpretation is extremely brief. That any explanation of it occurs at all may be simply due to the fact that it is mentioned in the Tipitaka and as such demanded an explanation. The author was able to make use of the traces of commentary still remaining to formulate his own commentary. Now let us consider the explanation given in the Sammohavinodani itself. The Sammohavinodani is a commentary to the Vibhanga, which is the second volume of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The section of the Vibhanga which describes the principle of Dependent Origination is called the Paccayakara Vibhanga. It is divided into two sections: the first is called Suttantabhajaniya (definition according to the Suttas), the second, the Abhidhammabhajaniya (definition according to the Abhidhamma). The Sammohavinodani , the commentary to this volume, is likewise divided into two sections. It describes the difference between the two sections thus: "The Fonder expounded the paccayakara in terms of numerous moments of consciousness in the Suttantabhajaniya, but as the paccayakara is not limited to numerous minds, but can occur even in one mind moment, he now seeks to explain the paccayakara as it occurs in one mind moment, and this is the Abhidhammabhajaniya."[Vibh.A.199 (approx.)] And elsewhere: "In the Suttantabhajaniya the paccayakara is divided into different lifetimes. In the Abhidhammabhajaniya it is expounded in one mind moment."[Vibh.A.200 (approx.)] In regard to the principle of cause and effect as it functions in one mind moment in everyday life, it is said, "...birth, (aging and death) for example, here refer to birth (aging and death) of arupa (immaterial) things, not to the decaying of the teeth, the graying of the hair, the wrinkling of the skin, dying, the action of leaving existence."[Vibh.A.208 (approx.)] One final point deserves a mention: In the Vibhanga of the Tipitaka, the section which describes the lifetime-to-lifetime interpretation occupies only five pages of material. The section which describes the principle of Dependent Origination in one mind moment contains seventy-two pages. But in the Sammohavinodani, Buddhaghosa's commentary, it is the reverse. Namely, the section dealing with the lifetime-to-lifetime interpretation is long, containing 92 pages, whereas the section dealing with the one-mind-moment interpretation contains only 19 pages. Why the commentary on the one-mind-moment version of Dependent Origination is so short is possibly because the author did to have much to say about it. Or perhaps he thought it had already been explained sufficiently in the Tipitaka, there being no need for further commentary. Whatever the case, we can affirm that the interpretation of Dependent Origination in everyday life is one that existed from the very beginning and is founded on the Tipitaka, but only traces of it remain in the Commentaries." End quote. Source: www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002-dependent10.htm #60569 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra scottduncan2 Dear Ken (and Larry), Thanks for your good comments. K: "Whenever we wonder what dhammas will look like, sound like, and so on, we almost inevitably fall into either the eternalist, or the annihilationist, camp. You will probably imagine insight as something that happens to you: I will probably imagine it as something that happens to someone else." At this point I'm very much likely to struggle with all sorts of imaginings about this. K: "I may have been too quick in criticising Larry's advice. I took him to be saying that insight could be attained by trying. That would be the eternalist's advice. The annihilationist would tell us to just do what we liked and let insight happen by itself. As the Ogha Sutta says, the flood is crossed, not by striving, and not by standing still." I was interested in my response to Larry: I immediately craved more information. But he just said to look and listen. That has stuck with me. I wonder if "looking" is different than "seeing" and if "listening" is different than "hearing?" I wonder if Larry is suggesting that insight arises while waiting? Or maybe it just arises, since "waiting" implies one who waits. What is it that is between striving and standing still? K: "As your quote from Survey said, "the objects seen as constituting 'the world' appear as devoid of a self." As for wondering how something would appear as 'devoid of self' I think we are on the right track whenever we are contented just learning about the dhammas that are arising now." The thing would be, then, to stop wondering... K: "I doubt that the concepts of what has been seen or heard will be any different. As for the actual rupas that are seen or heard, I don't know. I believe (having been told by someone at DSG) that a vipassana practitioner would know exactly what a rupa looked like. But how would he describe it to you or me? Probably the same way the Abhidhamma describes it now, don't you think?" Likely, yes. I guess, as a beginner, I get too caught up in wanting to know concepts as a preliminary to experience. I'm needing to know, though, how others practise in sort of day-to-day terms. Sincerely, Scott. #60570 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the abhidhamma of existentialism egberdina Hi Larry, > > Hi all, > > I recently read a book called "Tete a Tete" about Sartre and Simone de > Beauvoir and their life together. I liked it so much I started reading > their philosophy and came up with this view: > > The dictum 'existence precedes essence' could be read as a kind of > circular cause and effect principle in terms of dependent arising as > 'kamma result precedes kamma formations'. Kamma formation is regarded as > the 'essence' of what it means to be human and is bound up with action. > Action is freedom. Paradoxically, freedom is suffering (anguish) because > it cuts one off from the other. Perhaps this freedom in exile is rooted > in the difference between kamma result and kamma formation. Kamma > formation is more of a reaction to kamma result than it is a simple > action. And the essence of reaction is separation. Hence, dukkha. > > If anyone is familiar with existentialism I would be interested in what > you have to say about it. > I find myself in a dilemma. I would love to discuss this, as I see early Buddhism as a form of existentialism. Especially so in its culmination in the arahant, the ubermensch without karma. The dilemma is that my inbox has about 20 posts in it that require answering before I embark on any new discussion. If noone else responds, are you happy to discuss it when I've caught up? Kind Regards Herman #60571 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye egberdina Hi Scott, Thanks for the in-depth analysis. I'm going to try and keep things brief for the time being, so I'm afraid I won't do justice to it. On 19/06/06, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > H: "You cannot give me your right view, nor are you in danger from my > > wrong view. What you and I are in danger of is our own unwise > consideration of whatever is seen and heard." > > > I can give you a view, right or wrong. So can you me. And true, > one's consideration can be either wise or unwise. You are wrong to > think there is no danger, though, in my opinion. Wrong views exist > and people adhere to them. > If we can agree to disagree for the time being, that would be way cool. I will just briefly restate my position that the sine-qua-non of right or wrong view formation is in the consideration/determination of whatever is presented. (And in my book, that does not happen at a parramattha level; for me perception occurs in chunks with various sense modalities contributing to percepts or gestalts, and it is at that level where things are rightly or wrongly considered. ) As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. > H: "And when have we considered unwisely? Whenever what is > > pleasurable, painful or neutral is seen other than dukkha, anicca and > anatta." > > > Can you elaborate on this? I'm afraid it is sort of a general case. > What do you mean specifically, if you don't mind? > I don't want to appear difficult, but the above is about as clear as I can get. What is unclear about it, specifically? It just basically says that there is not any thing which is worth a pinch of shit, and any consideration otherwise is quite mistaken. > H: "You speak in praise of the quantity of Dhamma understanding > > available to you here at dsg. Unfortunately, any Dhamma understanding > is always going to be your own. If understanding were transmissable, > we'd all be Arahants courtesy of the Buddha's transmission. And > quantity of teaching, without quality of understanding, is trivial." > > > No, of course in this you state some truisms but I think you are > wrong. Sorry. I guess you mean that understanding (pa~n~na) is an > impersonal arising and can't be "transmitted." True. But this is a > bit off-topic. Wrong views *can* be transmitted. If understanding is > lacking, or if something else is mistaken for understanding, then this > is a problem. Right view, as well, can be transmitted. This is > called teaching. This is what the Buddha did. Understanding arose in > those who had the appropriate conditions in place. OK. Views can be transmitted. I'll rephrase it. The final responsibility for the success of the transmission lies with the receiver, not the sender. You cannot teach the unwilling. > There is "right view," Herman, and as you know, it is not "mine" or > "yours." What do you think? > It sounds good to me, Scott. > Thanks for your continued patience with me. > It is kind of you to see me as patient. Kind Regards Herman #60572 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:17 am Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Herman, I'm glad to continue discussing with you! H: "Thanks for the in-depth analysis. I'm going to try and keep things brief for the time being, so I'm afraid I won't do justice to it." That's kind of you. I was hoping you wouldn't mind. You realise that much of that is for me, just to try to learn. You keep showing me new Suttas, which I appreciate, and then I want to see what the original words are, which, as I said, is more for me (selfish bastard). And don't in any way consider the "analysis" to have any accuracy. I stand to be corrected (of my wrong views, ha ha). H: "If we can agree to disagree for the time being, that would be way cool. I will just briefly restate my position that the sine-qua-non of right or wrong view formation is in the consideration/determination of whatever is presented. (And in my book, that does not happen at a paramattha level; for me perception occurs in chunks with various sense modalities contributing to percepts or gestalts, and it is at that level where things are rightly or wrongly considered. ) As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." I've literally seen that with horses! No problem, Herman, agreeing to disagree is totally fine. Can you imagine the "discussion" we two would have were we to actually dive into this one? I recall your earlier reference to gestalts and can't help noting that, although it seems as if this occurs, this is the way a self is construed, at that particular perceptual level, but you're not thirsty... H: "I don't want to appear difficult, but the above is about as clear as I can get. What is unclear about it, specifically? It just basically says that there is not any thing which is worth a pinch of shit, and any consideration otherwise is quite mistaken." Yeah, I see. Reading back, I guess I wondered how the mention of the characteristics of dhammas fit in to the argument at that moment. I guess, then, I would have attempted to respectfully suggest that, in relation to what was being discussed, I found it to be a truism. No big deal. I think I get the idea on its own, and it is not a trivial one by any stretch. H: "OK. Views can be transmitted. I'll rephrase it. The final responsibility for the success of the transmission lies with the receiver, not the sender. You cannot teach the unwilling." Yes, we agree on the locus of responsibility. I would persist in maintaining that, although you cannot teach the unwilling, what of the willing who is taught wrongly and thinks its right? H: "It is kind of you to see me as patient." Well, I don't know about elsewhere, but you are definitely demonstrating it here. Steady as she goes, eh? Sincerely, Scott. #60573 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Faith vs. Reason jonoabb Hi Daniel As I understand the teachings, neither faith (as generally understood) nor reason can lead to an understanding of the way things truly are, as neither is based on a direct understanding of presently arising dhammas. As regards your other question, there is no way of proving (to another) a certain way of knowledge to be valid or invalid. Would you mind saying a little more about your interest in this matter. Thanks. Jon Daniel wrote: >Hi all, > > I am trying to attack the same issue that is stuck in my head from different >points of view. Sorry if there is something repetitious in this. > > > Faith and Reason are >both two ways of knowing something, right? If I believe that there is god or >if I have some reasons to think it, in both cases there is some "knowledge", >some cognitive content, though they are of different types. > > What is the criteria? >How does one proove a certain way of knowledge to be valid or invalid? Why is >Reason more Valid than Faith? > > Yours, Daniel > > #60574 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hallo Jon > >Well, the misunderstandings are in the second or third power now. >I was not interested in 'wrong view" as such, only I know it is one >of the possible object of clinging. >And when you start to talk about "wrong view" as such I (not an >expert on the subject of wrong view) thought: wrong view and >ignorance (the first step of D.O) have to do with each other, why >does Jon jump to wrong view = (more or less) ignorance? (see Avijja >Sutto below) >That was the reason of my question which is, I repeat, a result of my >thinking within the frame of reference of Dependent Origination. >All I wanted to know was: why do you start talking about "wrong view" >as such? > > OK, I think we can now deal with this particular misunderstanding. The reason I started talking about wrong view was because items 2, 3 and 4 in the list of 4 aspects of clinging given in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (and also in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, I believe) are sub-sets of wrong view. Here is the extract from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary again: ****************************** (8.) "Through craving is conditioned clinging" (tanhÄ?-paccayÄ? upÄ?dÄ?nam). 'Clinging' is explained as an intensified form of craving. It is of 4 kinds: * (1) clinging to sensuality, * (2) to erroneous views, * (3) to rules and ritual, * (4) to personality-belief. Sensuous craving is to (1) a condition of natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya). For (2-4), craving is a condition by way of co-nascence, mutuality, root (hetu), etc. It also may be a condition of natural decisive support. For example, through craving for heavenly rebirth, etc. people often may be induced to cling to certain rules and rituals, with the hope of reaching thereby the object of their desires. ****************************** Of the 4, only the first is clinging to 'objects' of the world, the other 3 relates to views about the way things are. I won't add anything more here, but happy to discuss further if not yet cleared up. >But my happiness does not depend on the answer to this question! >I'm more interested in your reaction to my Payutto quote in #60528; >my interest in "bhava" in #60497 and mostly on my general remark >about D.O in relation to mrs. Sujin in #60551. >Perhaps to much questions for a discussion. > > Yes, rather a lot for one post ;-)). Let me take the first of these, as it relates to the same part of DO as your question about wrong view. My main comment is that the passage as I read it is limited to the first of the 4 kinds of clinging, namely sensuous desire. Apart from that, I don't know enough about clinging as referred to in the DO link to know to what extent it is the same as having an attitude toward, or evaluating, the desired object. I'd need to read up further on the subject before giving a view. Sorry that I can't be more definite. (By the way, you haven't said why you find the passage so helpful. Would you like to say a little about this?) Jon "8 => 9. Craving as a determinant for clinging: As desire becomes stronger it develops into clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation, creating AN ATTITUDE TOWARD AND EVALUATION OF THE OBJECT OF DESIRE (with vibhavatanha, a negative evaluation will be formed). A fixed position is adopted towards things: if there is attraction it precipitates a binding effect, an identification with the object of attraction. Whatever is connected with that object seems to be good. When there is repulsion, the object of that repulsion seems to affront the self. Any adopted position towards these things tends to reinforce clinging, which will be directed toward, and in turn reinforce the value of: Sense objects (kama); Ideas and beliefs (ditthi); Systems, models, practices and so on (silavatta); The belief in a self (attavada) to either attain or be thwarted from its desires." (capitals me) Source: "Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality #60575 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman seeking to understand Jon (was Re: Samatha and vipassana 1) egberdina Hi Jon, Thanks for this. On 06/06/06, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Herman > > Herman Hofman wrote: > > >Thanks for clarifying some more. I am attempting to understand, not only in > >your case, but in all cases, the aha! moment of realising that one is > >hearing something vey profound. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but > >to me it is akin to a recognition of sorts. Could it be recognition? > > > > I think your question is, how do we know if what we are hearing/have > heard is the truth? I don't regard our sense of recognition as a > reliable guide, as it is as likely to be informed by wrong view as > anything else. > > There is no short answer. But for those who are inclined to think the > Buddha discovered the truth and taught is, the record of his teachings > would be a handy point of reference. > Yes, I agree. And the relevant point in that is that it is the recipient who has decided that the sender is credible. I think one of the key factors in learning from other people is willingness. > > Certainly ignorance could not appreciate truth from non-truth. But if > there has been a genuine interest in the teachings in the past, and the > hearing of the truth in the present, then regardless of the overall > level of developed understanding, the truth can be appreciated. > I still think that there is much room for the mind to be a self-measuring ruler, and that what is settled on as truth is often just a bunch of well-disguised intentions. (No attribution here :-)). Kind Regards Herman #60576 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... Correct Vision of Nama & Rup egberdina Hi Sarah. Sorry to be dragging up old posts. Please don't feel you have to respond. > .... > S: Nibbana can only ever be experienced by cittas and cetasikas > (conditioned dhammas). Magga and phala cittas ARE cittas, accompanied by > the universal cetasikas including sanna, the eightfold path cetasikas and > other lokuttara sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas arising at the time. > ..... I am approaching this from a theoretical perspective. How do you reconcile Nibbana as a positive element, with "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?" and "So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant." (my quotes illustrating my point that Nibbana is not experienced) Kind Regards Herman PS Have a great time away, won't you! #60577 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:08 am Subject: RE: [dsg] MN 01 questions dacostacharles Hi Herman, I will take a stab; I am a little tired (we are fixing our house to sell). What the sutra is trying to present is that the normal person perceives things as they really are (the opposite is a type of delusion psychiatrists call psychosis). The problems the normal person has is in conceiving (i.e., concocts) things as 'mine' and delighting in them. This proves that the person has not comprehended things fully, in the Buddhist since (on thing can not be owned nor should one delight in them). The jhanas and Nibbana are not an issue here (in the suttra) but if you can go beyond . not concoct things as mine, nor take delight (another type of attachment) in them, you should be on your way . but then again, if you do this, you are not the normal Joe. Charles DaCosta _____ From: Herman Hofman Subject: [dsg] MN 01 questions Hi all, I would appreciate any help on the following questions about MN 01, the Mulapariyaya Sutta. It says this of the run-of-the-mill person. "He perceives earth as earth...water as water...fire as fire...wind as wind...beings as beings...gods as gods...Pajapati as Pajapati...Brahma as Brahma...the luminous gods as luminous gods...the gods of refulgent glory as gods of refulgent glory...the gods of abundant fruit as the gods of abundant fruit...the Great Being as the Great Being...the sphere of the infinitude of space as the sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness as the sphere of nothingness...the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception...the seen as the seen...the heard as the heard...the sensed as the sensed...the cognized as the cognized...singleness as singleness...multiplicity as multiplicity...the All as the All... He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding. Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. " Does this mean a run-of-the-mill person is capable of attaining all the jhanas and Nibbana? Further, the translation has the activity of the run-of-the-mill person as being "perceiving", as compared to "knowing directly" in the case of a trainee monk all the way to Arahant and through to the Tathagata. What are the Pali roots of the two verbs as used in this sutta? Kind Regards Herman #60578 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Roots of Good and Evil, 2. egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you for clarifying. And for bringing Lodewijk in on the matter :-) On 09/06/06, nina van gorkom wrote: > > > And from a momentary perspective, there is no meaning > of words to be pondered or understood. There is only sound, arising, > changing, ceasing. > > -------- > N: I discussed your dilemma with Lodewijk and he said that if one hears: > there is only this moment now, one will not see connections. > We have to see connections: hearing arises always within a process of > several cittas, and this process is followed by other processes which think > of meanings. Yes, this is true. So we do not go from hearing a "kh" sound to hearing a "eh" sound to hearing a "th" sound to understanding "cat". Meaning is not found in components, meaning comes from interrelated wholes. And consideration of Dhamma is not consideration of phonemes, or vowels, or dipthongs, it is consideration of meanings. And meanings and intentions are the same. What one person speaks, and what another person hears, is not a sequence of parramattha dhammas, but intention(s). What is conveyed in communication is intention. And there are no fragments of intention, no sub-components. Each intention is whole in itself. > > ------- > N: We read that the Disciples listened to the Buddha with their whole > attention, with gladness and courage. It is important how one listens, with > sincerity to learn something, letting go of preconceived ideas. > **** Yes, the Buddha conveyed to us his Noble Intentions, which are incomprehensible if we approach them as individual cittas lasting a millionth of a second. And that is also precisely the same reason why consideration of path factors like right speech, right action, and right livelihood are meaningless as momentary arisings. We all know that it takes at least a few seconds to say "Sabhe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya.". Kind Regards Herman PS Drenthe sounds good at the moment. We wake up to -8 degrees. Brrrrrr. #60579 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the abhidhamma of existentialism lbidd2 Herman: "If noone else responds, are you happy to discuss it when I've caught up?" Hi Herman, Sure, any time. Larry #60580 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:50 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,84 corrected lbidd2 Hi all, I left something out in the English transcription of this paragraph. Below is the corrected version. Larry --------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 84. (c) As to 'natural-decisive-support': the decisive-support is natural, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. Faith, virtue, etc., produced in, or climate, food, etc., habitual to, one's own continuity are called natural. Or else, it is a decisive-support by nature, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. The meaning is that it is unmixed with object and proximity. It should be understood as variously divided up in the way beginning: 'Natural-decisive-support: with faith as decisive-support a man gives a gift, undertakes the precepts of virtue, does the duties of the Uposatha, arouses jhana, arouses insight, arouses the path, arouses direct-knowledge, arouses an attainment. With virtue ... With learning ... With generosity ... With understanding as decisive-support a man gives a gift ... arouses an attainment. Faith, virtue, learning, generosity, understanding, are conditions, as decisive-support condition for [the repeated arising of] faith, virtue, learning, generosity, understanding' (P.tn.1,165). So these things beginning with faith are natural-decisive-support since they are both natural and decisive-supports in the sense of a cogent reason. **************************** 84. pakatuupanissayo pana pakato upanissayo pakatuupanissayo. pakato naama attano santaane nipphaadito vaa saddhaasiilaadi upasevito vaa utubhojanaadi. pakatiyaa eva vaa upanissayo pakatuupanissayo, aaramma.naanantarehi asammissoti attho. tassa pakatuupanissayo ``saddha.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. siila.m, suta.m, caaga.m, pa~n~na.m upanissaaya daana.m deti...pe0... samaapatti.m uppaadeti. saddhaa, siila.m, suta.m, caago, pa~n~naa saddhaaya, siilassa, sutassa, caagassa, pa~n~naaya, upanissayapaccayena paccayo''tiaadinaa (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.423) nayena anekappakaarato pabhedo veditabbo. iti ime saddhaadayo pakataa ceva balavakaara.na.t.thena upanissayaa caati pakatuupanissayoti. #60581 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra egberdina Hi Scott, On 19/06/06, Scott Duncan wrote: > > I'm still wondering: What will one see and hear? How will this > appear different from ordinary looking and listening? > For the foreseeable future, you can bet on one thing, and it is not the Oilers. That you see only your intentions. Kind Regards Herman #60582 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:14 pm Subject: We should consider more deeply? philofillet Hi Nina The other day I was listening to the talk in which you describe your strong aversion when you couldn't find Lodewijk at the candle ceremony - "I felt like crying" you said. And the exchange continued thus: Nina: I realized that it is dosa, and it was a good subject for satipatthana that offers itself. But also I realize that it was only thinking about dosa, and it is my dosa, and not yet realizing this as a dhamma, because when we realize it as a dhamma, we know that it is a reality, it arises by conditions. And I said (at Thai discussion) that my problem was that I could not realize it as only a dhamma. Acharn Sujin: So we listen, we study, in order to understand that moment as a dhamma, that's all, no matter what happens, or what arises Nina: We can repeat it "this is only a dhamma" but we should deeply consider it and realize it more deeply and deeply, so I feel that it is good to discuss this more. I really related to this exchange, as I'm sure anyone would. I have been going through a lot of stress recently, and at times have felt myself buckling under the weight of it, and have felt like crying, and have cried, on a few occasions. And there has been a lot of the sort of thing you describe above, thinking of it "this is just a dhamma" and that sort of thing, reflecting on the sutta about feelings passing like the winds blowing this way and that. It is helpful. *However* I think it is dangerous if we think "I should reflect more deeply" because the depth of our reflection is completely out of our hands. I'm sure even the people at DSG who want to control this and that would agree on that as well. The depth of our understanding of dhammas is out of our hands. When we try to reflect more deeply we are fooling ourselves. We have to be so patient. It is very unlikely, in my thinking, that the depth of our reflection on and understanding of dhammas will ever, in this lifetime, overcome the great pain, the great sadness we will feel because of events in our life, the greatest of the sad ones being losing our loved lifetime companions. Dhamma *cannot* be an antidote for this pain. The pain will come, and it will be intense and overwhelming. Then, in the midst of it, there will be moements of right understanding, I am confident of that. But the pain will inevitably be intense and overwhelming. I am writing this to myself more than to you. I am really resisting using Dhamma as a comfort blanket or antidote for life's hardships these days. I think the modern Buddhist movement does encourage people to do so (I think of Thich Nhat Hahn, out of many I could mention) but I will not follow that path. Perhaps for others it is true Dhamma, their path. But I will follow the path of patiently awaiting the arising of understanding, due to conditions that are beyond my control. Having said that, I have decided to seek comfort in other ways. After long consideration, I have settled on heroin. Ha, ha...just joking!!! No, I am doing the kind of new age visualization meditations (based on one of those New York Times bestsellers, "Seat of the Soul") that I did before coming to the Dhamma. They are very helpful, I've been feeling very light and bright the last week. I know that they have nothing to do with Dhamma, but they help. I would rather do that than manipulate Dhamma to make it pleasant and soothing. It is so hard to await for the arising of understanding. You have long years of developed pariyatti, so you can turn naturally to the right understanding of Dhamma in a more natural way. But for beginners like me there is too much desperate grasping for comfort. I will be aware of that. Moments of seeing understood, hearing understood. Dosa understood. Whatever dhamma understood. How valuable they are, how liberating they are. But the depth and frequency of their arising remain beyond our control, unless we are deluded with a capital DELUDED. Anyways, just a ramble there. Phil p.s Sarah and Jon, I think you are off somewhere. Have a nice trip. Thanks again for the wonderful recordings. #60583 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra scottduncan2 Dear Herman, H: "For the foreseeable future, you can bet on one thing, and it is not the Oilers. That you see only your intentions." Brutal, man. (Long live hockey) Sincerely, Scott. #60584 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:53 pm Subject: How to Cure Doubt & Uncertainty ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to cure the hesitant & vacillating Doubt-&-Uncertainty! Noticing Doubt-&-Uncertainty (vicikiccha) emerges can make this suspense fade away: Herein, Bhikkhus, when Doubt-&-Uncertainty is present in him, the bhikkhu notes & understands: There is Doubt-&-Uncertainty in me, & when Doubt-&-Uncertainty is absent, he notes & understands: No Doubt-&-Uncertainty is in me. He also understands how unarisen Doubt-&-Uncertainty arises. He understands how to leave behind any arisen Doubt-&-Uncertainty, and he understands how left Doubt-&-Uncertainty will not arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Doubt-&-Uncertainty arise? There are doubtful, indeterminable, & inconclusive ambiguities! Often giving irrational & unwise attention to such matters, is the feeding cause of the arising of unarisen Doubt-&-Uncertainty, & the feeding cause of worsening and aggravation of Doubt-&-Uncertainty, that already has arisen. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Doubt-&-Uncertainty cease? There are advantageous & detrimental states, blameable & blameless, average & excellent states, and dark & bright states, frequently giving rational & wise attention to these, is the starving cause for the non-arising of unarisen Doubt-&-Uncertainty, & the starving cause for the resolute clearing of Doubt-&-Uncertainty, that has already appeared. SN 46:51 Some advantageous reflections to return to whenever Doubt-&-Uncertainty sneaks in: There are these 6 things, which help to throw out doubt: 1: The state of being learned in the Buddha-Dhamma. 2: Examining the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. 3: Understanding the advance of Moral Discipline. 4: Being decided & convinced about the 3 Jewels. 5: Sympathetic, clever and helpful friends, who knows directly. 6: Explaining talk that dispels doubt. Doubt-&-Uncertainty is like a Desert: Doubt-&-Uncertainty is just as when a rich man travels through a desolate desert where there is no food and much danger. Freedom from Doubt-&-Uncertainty is like when he has crossed the desert, and gradually reaches safety near a village, a secure place, free from danger. The he is relieved. DN 2 It is exactly & even so with one in whom doubts about one of the 8 objects of doubt# has arisen. Doubting whether the Master really is a perfectly Enlightened One or not, he cannot become assured of it with confidence. Unconvinced he remains unable to attain to the paths and fruits of Nobility. Thus, as the traveller in the desert is uncertain whether robbers are there or not, he produces in his mind, again and again, a state of wavering and vacillation, a lack of decision, a state of anxiety; and thus he creates in himself an obstacle for reaching the safe ground of the Noble Ones (ariya-bhumi). In that way, sceptical doubt is like travelling in a desert. #: They are, according to the Vibhanga: doubt in regard to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the (threefold) training, the past, the future, both past and future, and the conditionality of dependently arisen phenomena. The Buddha was once questioned by an elderly yet undecided and divided brahman Dhotaka: I see here in the world of beings divine & human, good ones, who lives possessing nothing. I thus bow for you All-around Eye. Please Sakyan, release me from my doubts! The Buddha answered: No one in the world, Dhotaka, can I release from doubting. But knowing the most excellent Dhamma, you will cross the ocean of uncertainty. Dhotaka now more confident: And I admire, Great Seer, that peace supreme, all stilled, knowing which, living aware and detached, I'll go beyond the entanglement of this world. Then I will teach you that peace even right here & now, not just hearsay words, understanding which, living aware and detached, you'll go beyond the entanglement of this world. Teach me as your friend, O best one, the Dhamma of detachment so that I may know directly so that I, as unaffected as space, may live right here, at ease in peace. calmed and not dependent... Whatever you are aware of, Dhotaka, above, below, across, or in between; know this as a chain to this world! Thus, do not create any craving for any being, becoming or non-becoming. Sutta Nipata V 6 Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. #60585 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra ken_aitch Hi Scott and Larry, ---------- <. . .> S: > But he just said to look and listen. That has stuck with me. I wonder if "looking" is different than "seeing" and if "listening" is different than "hearing?" ---------- Yes, I think they are different. It seems to me that the advice "Look and listen," in the context of Dhamma practice, implies eternalist wrong-view. It means we should embark on a course of action aimed at developing insight. How could we do that without the idea of an abiding self? Larry has corrected me, and I am happy to know that he didn't mean it that way. I agree 'Look and listen' can be understood in different (non-eternalist) ways. For example, it could mean, "Understand that insight will be conditioned to arise when the Dhamma has been correctly looked for and listened to." -------------- S: > I wonder if Larry is suggesting that insight arises while waiting? Or maybe it just arises, since "waiting" implies one who waits. -------------- Yes, exactly: so I don't think he meant waiting. -------------------------- S: > What is it that is between striving and standing still? -------------------------- In between is the Middle Way - the way of conditioned cittas arising to experience dhammas with right understanding, right thought, right effort and so on. -------------------- <. . .> KH: > > As for wondering how something would appear as 'devoid of self' I think we are on the right track whenever we are contented just learning about the dhammas that are arising now. > > S: > The thing would be, then, to stop wondering... -------------------- Be that as it may, when I wrote the above I wasn't saying we should stop wondering. I was suggesting an answer. I was suggesting the experience of directly knowing an object as 'devoid of self' would be a bit like the experience of contentedly studying Dhamma. ----------------------- <. . .> S: > I guess, as a beginner, I get too caught up in wanting to know concepts as a preliminary to experience. I'm needing to know, though, how others practise in sort of day-to-day terms. ----------------------- Conditioned dhammas practise, people don't. Whenever people purport to practise Dhamma there is the idea of a self that is practising. It's strange, but true, that striving to practice conventional disciplines (piano, football etc.) does not necessarily entail wrong view, while striving to develop insight does. But I can't imagine how anyone could deliberately (formally) practise insight. Insight is not a piano; it is a conditioned dhamma. Ken H #60586 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:02 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 479- Non-Aversion/Adosa (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa)contd ***** When we feel sick or when we experience another unpleasant object through one of the senses we may feel sorry for ourselves and complain about it. We give in to aversion and we are apt to put off the development of kusala until we are in more favourable conditions. Then we overlook the opportunity for the development of kusala which is right at hand: when there are unpleasant objects there is an opportunity to cultivate patience. We all are bound to suffer from hunger and thirst, heat and cold; these things occur in our daily life time and again. The experience of an unpleasant object through one of the senses is vipåka, the result of kamma, and we cannot avoid vipåka. After the moments of vipåka have fallen away, there are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, depending on whether there is “wise attention” or “unwise attention” to the object. If we see the benefit of patience in all circumstances there are conditions for non-aversion instead of aversion. ***** Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #60587 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn Jon Thanks; one thing is clear now: you agree with me that clinging is not the same as desiring because, as you say, sensuous desire is only one of the four objects of clinging. That's what I stated again and again and was (to my surprise) problematic and the reason I made message #60551. Unless … You say (with Nyatiloka) that "sensuous desire" is one of the four kinds of clinging (I prefer to say: the four "object of clinging", is that a problem?) Perhaps the other three are also "desire" but not "sensuous desire" What have (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and ritual and, (4) personality-belief in common ? Psychological seen the function of this triad is: anxiety-reduction So there is the SENSUOUS DESIRE and the ANXIETY-REDUCTION DESIRE You also say that these three have something in common: "the other 3 relates to views about the way things are"; that's more cognitive language, I feel more at ease with psychological language but perhaps it's the same core. An extra argument for that is that you are calling the other three desire too: "For example, through craving for heavenly rebirth, etc. people often may be induced to cling to certain rules and rituals, with the hope of reaching thereby the object of their desires." I used the term "psychological" and that's why I find the passage of Payutto so helpful. It's modern language of people who are used to think in psychological terms, a way of thinking and a language that only exist a hundred year or so. Maybe this gives new problems or misunderstandings. I'm curious what you think of Payutto, especially chapter 5 and the appendix of his study ( www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002-dependent.htm ) And, because you know more about 'wrong view" than I do: how do you see the connection between wrong view and ingorance (avijja), the first step of DO? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > >..... > > OK, I think we can now deal with this particular misunderstanding. > > The reason I started talking about wrong view was because items 2, 3 and > 4 in the list of 4 aspects of clinging given in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist > Dictionary (and also in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, I believe) are > sub-sets of wrong view. > > Here is the extract from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary again: >... > Let me take the first of these, as > it relates to the same part of DO as your question about wrong view. > > My main comment is that the passage as I read it is limited to the first > of the 4 kinds of clinging, namely sensuous desire. > > Apart from that, I don't know enough about clinging as referred to in > the DO link to know to what extent it is the same as having an attitude > toward, or evaluating, the desired object. I'd need to read up further > on the subject before giving a view. Sorry that I can't be more definite. > > (By the way, you haven't said why you find the passage so helpful. > Would you like to say a little about this?) > > Jon #60588 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Ken H & Larry, I think you are discussing an important point, so I hope you don't mind me chipping in as well:- --- ken_aitch wrote: > Scott: > I'm still wondering: What will one see and hear? How will this > appear different from ordinary looking and listening? > --------------- > >KenH: As your quote from Survey said, "the objects seen as constituting 'the > world' appear as devoid of a self." > > As for wondering how something would appear as 'devoid of self' I > think we are on the right track whenever we are contented just > learning about the dhammas that are arising now. .... Sarah: I agree with Ken H. It is by understanding dhammas that are appearing now that we get a glimmer of the truth of how they really are. The dhammas which appear to insight are exactly the same as the dhammas which appear now without insight. They don't change. It's the clarity of wisdom which changes. (Remember Azita's analogy of the glasses being fitted at the optician's?) .... >Scott: I'm not trying to cling to weird experiences in some new-age sort of > way. Does "seeing" and "hearing" have a different quality when one > has reached the first stage as noted earlier? > ------------------------- > >Ken H: I doubt that the concepts of what has been seen or heard will be any > different. As for the actual rupas that are seen or heard, I don't > know. .... Sarah: The seeing and hearing have just the same qualities and characteristics as they've always had. They are conditioned by kamma and other factors. Also, the rupas seen and heard have their own conditions (kamma/citta/temperature/nutrition)regardless of any insight developed or not. An arahant may have very good or very poor sight and hearing, just like us. Again, it's not the dhammas experienced that change with the development of insight, but the awareness and knowledge of them for what they really are that changes. The reason I think this is an important topic is because people do have ideas of strange and weird experiences as being inidicative of some kind of insight when really they're just indicative of being strange and weird experiences, conditioned by different factors which *may* include a wrong idea of practice/attachment/substances or any other factor. .... >Ken H: I believe (having been told by someone at DSG) that a vipassana > practitioner would know exactly what a rupa looked like. But how would > he describe it to you or me? Probably the same way the Abhidhamma > describes it now, don't you think? .... S: Yes - merely a conditioned dhamma - just that which is seen or heard, for example and definitely not worth clinging to for an instant. Rupas are very, very ordinary and quite useless because they fall away as soon as they've arisen. Namas are said to be even worse:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Scott, sorry the Oilers didn't quite pull it off after getting so very close......Anyway, you've put them on the DSG map now. Now you can start cheering for all the soccer teams supported by DSG members - a long list: Socceroos, England, Brazil, Holland, Italy, France and so on.....:-) =========== #60589 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... And mrs. Sujin sarahprocter... Hi Joop (& Ken O), --- Joop wrote: > Interesting is the last quoted remark of mrs. Sujin: " These > different methods concern the dhammas that occur at each moment, also > now, at this very moment." That means that mrs. Sujin prefers of the > two applications of D.O. the one within one moment; and not the > favorite of Buddhaghosa and the only one of many boddhaghosians: D.O. > in three lifetimes! > > What do you think of this conclusions? .... S: What is last lifetime and next lifetime and this lifetime if it's not just like this moment? In other words, avijja now is just like avijja yesterday, just like avijja last life, just like avijja will continue in future while the cycle of defilements, kamma and results continue on? If we don't understand about avijja and other kilesa now, kamma now, vipaka now, then we can't benefit much from studying D.O. in all its intricacies. You've mentioned several times that Buddhaghosa prefers three lifetimes and linked us to the article which suggests there is a different interpretation in the two commentaries of Sammohavinodani and Visuddhimagga (both compiled by him). To be honest, Joop, I think the author is making a mountain out of a mole-hill. I've never found anything conflicting in these texts which are extremely detailed. There's a lot of overlap and there is bound to be a different emphasis in places as the Sammohavinodani is a commentary on the Vibhanga, whereas the Visuddhimagga is a compiled commentary on the entire Abhidhamma or even entire Tipitaka one could say. I think that when we appreciate more that dhammas arising and falling away now, conditioned by and conditioning other dhammas all the time, we can begin to appreciate that it's the same throughout life, througout the lives of samsara. I think it's quite wrong to suggest that the Visuddhimagga doesn't emphasise this moment (see the quotes from Nina's and Larry's series) or the development of wisdom at this moment. Likewise, I think it's wrong to suggest that the Sammohavinodani doesn't emphasise the cycle over lifetimes (see Ken O's recent posts to you, eg his good recent one on bhava #60561 - thx Ken O! He quoted para 861 which explained how past sankhara(kamma) was a condition for rebirth and other results in this life and how present bhava (kamma) will be a condition for future results in lives to come). Thanks for plugging away at these important points and I'm glad to see that 'Survey' is being used too:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #60590 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:01 am Subject: When there is awareness of laziness practice kusala with diligence? philofillet Hello again Nina I was listening to the Perfection of virya today, and heard this: "If we know that it is difficult for us to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should, at that very moment, immediately apply ourselves with diligence to kusala." To be honest, I am wondering if Lodewijk added this part himself, as you said he did at one point in the introduction. ( We talked about it last year, a part in the introduction in which it is said that if we do not apply ourselves to all kinds of kusala, we may find ourselves overcome by akusala, if I recall correctly. You said that Lodewijk added that part.) I'm sorry if that sounds disrespectful, I really don't mean it that way. I know that he places a lot of emphasis on the perfections, and the brahma-viharas and our relations with others. I guess that his long years of service to peace and understanding between people through his service to diplomacy and the United Nations (?) points him in the direction of doing good here and now, and that is a kind of accumulated tendency that he (and you and everyone else) can be very grateful for. Did Acharn Sujin really teach the above? If she did, I disagree. Responding to awareness of akusala by attempting to thrust ourselves into kusala without understanding and the detachment (alobha) that accompnaies all kusala is not the Buddha's way, I strongly feel. It helps make us feel happier in the short term, that's for sure. The self-help book I referred to in my previous post is full of that sort of thing. It is good for our emotional well being, in the short term. But it is not the Buddha's teaching, I feel. We cannot have kusala just because we want it to get away from akusala. We will just be accumulating more atttachment, more delusion. It is better to understand moments of akusala as conditioned nama - in the long run, that brings us closer to the true liberation, which is understanding the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and ANATTA in all dhammas. That's the way I feel these days. I imagine I'll see things in a completely different way in a year, or a month, or tomorrow, who knows? I've thrown a lot at you all of a sudden. If you'd like to take just a couple of little bits out of the two posts I sent and send some feedback to me (on list is ok) I'll be grateful. No hurry, please. I am not fretting about this sort of thing at all, just shooting off my big mouth again. Again, sorry if I've sounded disrespectful to Lodewijk. I didn't mean it that way. Phil #60591 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making Theory Pra sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Scott, *PHIL*, Azita, Larry & all, --- ken_aitch wrote: > It is just Abhidhamma in daily life, Scott. You have singled out the > daily life of a jhana master (a person who can enter and exist jhana > at will). In his case, just as for the rest of us, dhammas arise by > conditions. None of them is a self, so as soon as there is the idea of > "my practice" or "my insight" the development of insight has stopped. > But even that moment of wrong practice can be known as it really is. .... S: A beautiful response:-). Scott, you also mentioned in another post about 'needing to know...how others practise in sort of day-to-day terms'. I have an idea KenH has already responded, but I'm a little behind, so I'll just mention that I think however we go about our lives in 'day-to-day terms', the dhammas that arise and fall are just as ordinary and unworthy of being attached to in anyway. Please keep up your good discussions with Ken H and Herman while we're away -- a real joy to read. Phil, (just in case you're kindly taking a 'peep' - thx so much for your Phra D quotes and excellent commentary. An interesting point about reading the parts which are unclear. I don't think Phra D (or Alan D as he disrobed not so long after that time) would have made that comment later, but that's another story. Like you, I don't think there's any rule about studying what we don't understand. But neither is there any rule about not studying it either and just letting the balls drop! It will just depend again on the various conditions and inclinations at the time either way. On the recent India series you'll hear K.Sujin emphasising that the Buddha didn't advise everyone to go to the forest. She says something like 'if you go, go and if you don't go, don't go - just develop understanding.' She stresses that people are always looking for rules, looking for something to think about, something to follow, instead of just developing understanding of what is conditioned according to accumulations. And here's one for Azita: 'If there's no panna, can there be panna tomorrow?' Metta, Sarah =========== #60592 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye sarahprocter... Hi Herman (& Scott), I was really impressed by your response #60536 to Scott (and afterwards Scott replied with a very interesting post too - great discussion guys and very interesting to follow its 'stream of consciousness') --- Herman Hofman wrote: > >Scott: Somewhere in all these other feelings that arise at times in response > > to your squiggles on the screen, is the desire to perhaps help you > > with your wrong views. I know that could sound totally grandiose and > > smug but you asked the question. I'd like to help you where I see > you > > are going wrong. <...> >>Within this > > group there is so much Dhamma understanding that I wish you could > take > > advantage of it rather than, to use what is, I think, an Old > Testament > > idiom, simply "kicking against the pricks." .... >Herman: You speak in praise of the quantity of Dhamma understanding available > to you here at dsg. Unfortunately, any Dhamma understanding is always > going to be your own. If understanding were transmissable, we'd all be > Arahants courtesy of the Buddha's transmission. And quantity of > teaching, without quality of understanding, is trivial. .... Sarah: I think this is a very good point and you also added some great quotes too. 'Dhamma understanding is always going to be your own'. Yes! We cannot tell others what to accept/believe or understand. Everyone has to work it out for themselves. We can read or hear the Dhamma, but it depends on so many factors, especially the 'right considering', the 'right attention' as to whether what we read or hear is understood or not. I think that appreciating this -- appreciating the significance of the conditions at work- can help us to have more patience and tolerance with each other. Like Scott, I thought your recent responses (especially this one) were very restrained and courteous, Herman. Somehow, Scott's 'direct' comments bring out the best as you've suggested, I think!! Thx for the good wishes - I assure you and everyone that I'll be reading all the posts while we're away too in the snowy Swiss mountains:-) Metta, Sarah ====== #60593 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] atta-vaadupaadaana. sarahprocter... Dear Han & Nina, (Tep, Steve & all), han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah (and Nina), > > Thank you very much for your response to my answers. > As regards sakkaaya ditthi and attavaadupaadaana <...> > I will quote another book, Buddhist Dictionary by > Nyanatiloka. > -------------------- > Quote [Upaadaana: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. > XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhaa, > q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging > (kaamupaadaana), clinging to views (ditthupaadaana), > clinging to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupaadaana), > clinging to the personaljty-belief > (atta-vaadupaadaana). <...> > (4) "What is the clinging to the personality-belief? > The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of > existence (s. sakkaaya-ditthi): these are called the > clinging to the personality-belief" (Dhs. 1214-17).] > End quote. > -------------------- > If attavaadupaadaana includes sakkaaya ditthi, but is > wider, I will be most grateful to know how much wider. > What is in the attavaadupaadaana, which is not in the > twenty types of sakkaaya ditthi? .... S: I agree with you and Nina that the texts certainly seem to suggest this. Tep also wrote the same before. Nina wrote: ... N:> thank you for the texts. You are right. > I looked at PED attan, for atta-vaadupaadaana, and they give many texts. > It > is translated as soul theory. <...> > I looked at Topics of Abh (This is Abhidhammattha Sangaha and > Commentary) > and found on p. 260 that it is the same as sakkaya di.t.thi. > I understood that sakkaya di.t.thi condiitons all the other kinds of > wrong > views. ..... S: Let me just add a few further comments in point form, but let me say at the outset that I'm on thin ice here: 1. As I mentioned, I understood from our discussions with A.Sujin that atta-vaadupaadaana doesn't only refer to sakkaaya-di.t.thi but is wider in meaning. As we all know, the object of sakkaaya-di.t.thi has to specifically refer to the taking of one of the khandhas as self in one of the four ways, i.e. as identical with, possessing, contained in or containing the khandha in question. If the view is not the taking of one of the khandhas for self (one at a time only), it's not this kind of wrong view(see SN 22:47), even though it's clear that all wrong views arise from these (see SN 1V.41:3). 2. I understood that when the other vipallaasas arise that take the impermanent khandhas for permanent and the wrong view that the painful is pleasant and the impure is pure, that these can also be included under atta-vaadupaadaana. For example, anything can be taken for being permanent and pleasant, including the khandhas we take for self, but not just these. The rupas we take for a pen or computer or rock can also be taken for being permanent or pleasant with wrong view. In other words, I believe atta or attan ('soul') can refer to any conditioned dhammas taken as being permanent and satisfactory. (See notes in P.E.D under 'attan' which Nina referred to for more on this). K. Sujin stresses that while we haven't had direct experience of the ti-lakkana, what is seen is likely to be considered as nicca, sukkha and atta. But when one of the khandhas, such as a rupa of this body is taken for self, it's sakkaaya di.t.thi. In Sammohavinodanii 2453, it refers to attaanudi.t.thi as the 'wrong view which follows self' and micchaadi.t.thi as being 'bad wrong view'. Does this have significance, I wonder? 3. Texts such as the Dhammasa'nganii (1223) do seem to unequivocally suggest that atta-vaadupaadaana is the same as sakkaaya-di.t.thi when it lists the 20 kinds of the latter. Perhaps, however, we could say that it just as unequivocally suggests the first kind of clinging, kaamupaadaana (sensuous clinging) simply refers to sensuous desire from the definition given. In fact we know that according to the commentaries (the Vism Tiika, I believe) the bhavupaadaana of the anagami is also included here. So perhaps the Dhs gives prime examples for each category? Under siilabbatupaadaana (clinging to wrong practice), any wrong practice based on any wrong view should be included, but again it may not be apparent from the definitions given. If we have an idea that it's better to sit under a tree to develop satipatthana and move over to a tree with this purpose in mind, I would suggest it's an example. So it doesn't just refer to those 'outside the Teaching' as mentioned by the Dhs, but even for those who have an understanding of the Path, when there's attachment, it can condition wrong practice and the wrong path is taken for the right path. (These are just suggestions for consideration - I certainly agree that texts such as the Dhs and Vism do suggest that atta-vaadupaadaana is the same as sakkaaya-di.t.thi) 4. In the Brahmajaala Sutta (DN1), all the various kinds of wrong views are given, including those connected with the idea of self but which wouldn't (I believe) fall under the strict definition of sakkaaya-di.t.thi. I'm sure there are lots of examples, but here's one given in the commentaries to this sutta(p193 in B.Bodhi's BPS translation) which is interesting because it's the same question which has often raised on DSG and is very common. In brief, someone asks that if it's true that there is no self and the khandhas are momentary, then what self do kammas affect when they bring their result,[ i.e. Who experiences the vipaka?] The kind of person who asks this question is said to be 'immersed in ignorance' and 'dominated by craving' for thinking like this in terms of people receiving results. It is 'a mind accompanied by attavaadupaadaana', because 'though formations are momentary, the kamma and the fruit in the assemblage of dhammas (constituting an individual) are connected together by the fact that the fruit arises in the same continuum in which the kamma was originally done.' I wouldn't have thought this was an example of sakkaaya-di.t.thi, because it's not a particular dhamma or khandha which is taken for self in one of the 4 ways at that moment is it? Rather, a general wrong idea of Self and people experiencing results, perhaps. I'm not sure. ..... I think that's as far as I can take this for now. I'll be very interested to read any of your further comments (or anyone else's). Metta, Sarah p.s. Han, do you have any other 'topic series' to share? Tep, you've gone rather quiet - hope all's well. Any suttas to share? ======= #60594 From: sutha shri Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:52 am Subject: hey all mystiqe_07 hey all, My name is Sutha, i got to know your group thru my guy Siva. He has told alot about this website, n i would like to know it personally by joining. As abt myself, i am werking in Asia Trade press. Hobbies include, dancing, swimming N reading. Thank you for accepting me. Hope to gain more knowledge from all of ya :-) With Best Regards, Sutha #60595 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... And mrs. Sujin jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, all Thanks Sarah for your message which was a mixture of information and opinion (an inevitable mixture, I have no problem with that) "Mountain or mole-hill", is that your final evalution of the Puyatta- essay? As you understand, I liked it. A fact is that most Theravada essays, (I don't know all) about D.O. only describe the three lifetimes application. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa is one of the few with another approach: one lifetime, that's still something else as 'one mind moment': both applications are usefull. And I prefer these too, as a motive I use (misuse?) a quote of you: "S: What is last lifetime and next lifetime and this lifetime if it's not just like this moment?" J: Yes, and that's one of the reasons 'REBIRTH' IS AN IRRELEVANT TOPIC FOR ME. You liked KenO's quotes of Buddhaghosa, you said; they did hardly touch me because it's too much about 'rebirth' and hardly about the dynamics of 'bhava' in this life. S: "I'm glad to see that 'Survey' is being used too" J: As always optimistic. But do you agree with my conclusion of the quote of it, that one should be carefull in mixing the method by way of the four paramattha dhammas and the method by way of the D.O.? To make myself more clear: I prefer the method by way of the D.O. and the quote of 'Survey' was the only time D.O. was mentioned, so it's not so useful. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop (& Ken O), > ... > S: What is last lifetime and next lifetime and this lifetime if it's not > just like this moment? In other words, avijja now is just like avijja > yesterday, just like avijja last life, just like avijja will continue in > future while the cycle of defilements, kamma and results continue on? > > If we don't understand about avijja and other kilesa now, kamma now, > vipaka now, then we can't benefit much from studying D.O. in all its > intricacies. > > ... > I think that when we appreciate more that dhammas arising and falling away > now, conditioned by and conditioning other dhammas all the time, we can > begin to appreciate that it's the same throughout life, througout the > lives of samsara. ... > > Thanks for plugging away at these important points and I'm glad to see > that 'Survey' is being used too:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #60596 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... And mrs. Sujin sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > And I prefer these too, as a motive I use (misuse?) a quote of you: > "S: What is last lifetime and next lifetime and this lifetime if it's > not just like this moment?" > J: Yes, and that's one of the reasons > 'REBIRTH' IS AN IRRELEVANT TOPIC FOR ME. .... S: In any case, if we don't develop any understanding of dhammas at this moment as dhammas, we won't have any idea what rebirth means, as I see it. .... > You liked KenO's quotes of Buddhaghosa, you said; they did hardly > touch me because it's too much about 'rebirth' and hardly about the > dynamics of 'bhava' in this life. .... S: His quotes were from Sammohavinodani which you and the article were suggesting mainly talks about this moment and not lifetimes:-). I think it's impossible to discuss the topics you raise such as bhava in D.O. without discussing rebirth -- it's all about kamma and vipaka starting with patisandhi citta. This is the cycle of D.O. Without patisandhi (rebirth), there'd be no present dhammas. Without the present dhammas, there'd be no patisandhi in future. On and on! .... > To make myself more clear: I prefer the method by way of the D.O. and > the quote of 'Survey' was the only time D.O. was mentioned, so it's > not so useful. .... S: I've got the point:-). Anyway, we agreed not to mention a certain name in our discussions -- it's just that I notice you keep mentioning her name and asking us for comments:-)). In another post of yours (#60497), I'd just like to correct your suggestion that anyone is 'denying the difference' between tanha and upadana. No one has said they are the same. Yes, they are both lobha cetasika, but as Nina pointed out, there are many degrees and varieties of lobha, just as there are of dosa. Also, in that post, you quoted a couple of paragraphs of Payutto's. To be honest, they make no sense to me. He talks about bhava as 'life states', but in D.O. it refers to kamma in this lifetime which will bring results in future as the Sammohavinodani quotes Ken O gave indicated. (And wasn't this the 'preferred' text of Payutto's?)The CMA note of BB's was better. Also, Christina Feldman's comments were lost on me. Sorry. Yes, bhava in D.O. is a paramatha dhamma - cetana cetasika when performing its role of kamma patha, I'd say. (Forget about the bhava rupas. Different terms can have different meanings in different contexts.) So your step8=>9 is small lobha => big lobha step 9=>10 is big lobha => kamma-patha which will lead to all sorts of results in future. Thanks for all the discussions, Joop. I'll look forward to more on return. Metta, Sarah ======== #60597 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:32 am Subject: More Reflections on Death & Dying sarahprocter... Dear Han, Nina (& all in the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta corner*), I wonder if you ever read this article packed with good sutta quotes on 'Ministering to the Sick and the Terminally Ill'? http://www.buddhanet.net/help_sick.htm I thought of it after Han's series and just found it is on-line, so had another look. Here's one part which is certainly food for thought: "The Sotapattisamyutta contains a valuable discourse on the question of counseling the terminally ill (S.v,408). Once Mahanama the Sakyan inquired from the Buddha how a wise layman should advise another wise layman who is terminally ill. Here it should be noted that both the counselor and the patient are wise lay Buddhists. The Buddha delivered a whole discourse on how this should be done. First, a wise layman should comfort a wise layman who is terminally ill with the four assurances: "Be comforted friend, you have unshakable confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, that the Buddha is fully enlightened, the Dhamma is well proclaimed, and the Sangha is well disciplined. You also have cultivated unblemished virtuous conduct which is conducive to concentration." Having thus comforted the patient with the four assurances, he should ask him whether he has any longing for his parents. If he says yes, it should be pointed out that death will certainly come whether he has longing for his parents or not. Therefore it is better to give up the longing. Then, if he says he gives up his longing for his parents, he should be asked whether he has longing for his wife and children. With the same reasoning he should be persuaded to give up that longing too. Then he should be asked if he has any longing for the pleasures of the senses. If he says yes, he should be convinced that divine pleasures are superior to human pleasures, and should be encouraged to aspire for divine pleasures. Then he should be gradually led up the scale of divine pleasures and when he comes to the highest heaven of the sense sphere, his attention should be diverted to the Brahma-world. If he says he has resolved on the attainment of the Brahma-world, he should be admonished that even the Brahma-world is characterized by impermanence and the rebirth personality. Therefore it is better to aspire for the cessation of the rebirth personality. If he can establish his mind on the cessation of the rebirth personality, then, the Buddha says, there is no difference between him and the monk who is liberated. This, no doubt, is the highest form of counseling that can be given to a highly advanced person who is terminally ill by an equally spiritually advanced person. It is very clear from the discourse that the patient must be one who is as advanced as a stream-enterer, as the four assurances or the consoling factors mentioned at the very beginning of the discourse are identical with the qualities of a stream-enterer." [Nina, do you remember Lily de Silva? She attended many talks and discussions when we were in Sri Lanka with K.Sujin the first time ('77)? She was the very lively and keen lady who was a Pali scholar.] Metta, Sarah *p.s. All in the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta corner - In another article of Lily de Silva's, she refers to the much-discussed Dakkinavibhanga Sutta. She writes: "The Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta enumerates a list of persons to whom alms can be offered and the merit accruing therefrom in ascending order. A thing given to an animal brings a reward a hundredfold. A gift given to an ordinary person of poor moral habit yields a reward a thousandfold; a gift given to a virtuous person yields a reward a hundred thousandfold. When a gift is given to a person outside the dispensation of Buddhism who is without attachment to sense pleasures, the yield is a hundred thousandfold of crores. When a gift is given to one on the path to stream-entry the yield is incalculable and immeasurable. So what can be said of a gift given to a stream-enterer, a once-returner, a non-returner, an Arahant, a Paccekabuddha, and a Fully Enlightened Buddha? " ***** S: I was interested that with her Pali expertise and knowledge of the texts that she refers to the 'one on the path to stream-entry' and the 'stream-enterer' here in light of all our discussions. ======== #60598 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:36 am Subject: Source of quote needed christine_fo... Hello all, Does anyone know the source of this quote: "Misdeeds cannot be washed away by water, the suffering of living beings cannot be removed with the hand, my realization cannot be transferred to another, but by showing the true nature of things, there will be liberation." metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #60599 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wissenschaftslehre? Conditions. sarahprocter... Dear Colette (& Nina), Good to hear from you and to know you are reading Nina's book on 'Conditions'. --- colette wrote: I tend to leave myself A LOT OF NEGOTIATING room so I tend to > use a lot of coloqualisms, slang, etc, as a means of getting to The > Root Understanding. It's a guerrilla warfare tactic where I secure > the available means of escape as a way to avoid entrapment, but it > also gives me a lot of other opportunities as well. And no I am not > at all afraid of admitting my own personal ignorance, I hold it out > in front of myself as a way of telling people that it really isn't my > fault if anything bad happens since we are all aware that I am > ignorant and need to learn. ;) .... S: Interesting;) At least you know....We're all ignorant and need to learn here, Colette and no one's interested in 'entrapment', so no need for the 'guerilla warfare'.... .... > > It will take a few days but I thank you for writing such a marvelous > piece of foundational equipment. It's almost as good as any PREFACE > would be for a book but the context isn't exactly the same now is it, > thus CAUSES & CONDITIONS has it's play. ... S: Nina's gone away for a few days, but I know I can speak for her when I say she'll be very happy if you have any questions on the text for her (and others) or any short passages you find significant which you'd like to quote with your own comments. For others, 'Conditions' can be found on Zolag and other websites, I believe. Metta, Sarah =======