#63000 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 1, 2006 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/2/06 6:07:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Continuing with my reply to this post of yours. > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon (and Matheesha, and Kel) - > ...> > >>Jon: > >>In the sutta passage you quote, concentration is given as one of > >several > >>relevant factors (the ones preceding it being Virtuous ways of > >conduct, > >>Non-remorse, Gladness, Joy, Serenity and Happiness) and is not singled > >out > >>for any particular emphasis. So are we to read this as suggesting the > >>need for some special training in these other factors also? > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is not a matter of a bag of "several relevant factors". A > >*sequence* of factors was involved, with each factor in the sequence > >"providing a basis > >for" the next - the terminology used in A VI, 50. The order isn't > >accidental. > >In A X,1 each factor is said to have the next as "benefit and reward". > > I agree with this. What I was trying to draw attention to was the > particular emphasis you seem to place on just one of the many factors > mentioned. Why do you not accord equal importance to the other factors -- > Virtuous ways of conduct, Non-remorse, Gladness, Joy, Serenity and > Happiness -- and assert the need for their (separate) development also? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I favor all of them, Jon. I'm a groupie for the whole band! ;-) If I emphasize concentation that is a reaction to folks dearly wanting to give it short shrift even though right concentration is no ignored step child of the Buddha's. ---------------------------------------------- > > > Something, BTW, pointed out in the next sutta, A X,2, will be > >appreciated by you!, namely that the arising of each subsequent factor > >requires no act > >of will for its arising (as in "May such and such arise in me"), bu > >arises by > >natural law in one in whom the previous factor is in place. But that, of > >course, is a good news/bad news story for you Jon, because in addition > >to showing > >that will is not involved at the separate steps (the good news), it IS a > >sequential process (the bad news). > > I think the wording of the sutta does not preclude a co-arising, although > I am not saying that is necessarily what is meant here (I'd be guided by > what the commentary has to say about it). > > But even a sequential arising would not be a 'bad news' story because, as > I see it, it is not a matter of each factor needing a separate 'practice' > of some kind for its development. --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with that. At least I haven't seen a full menu of specific practices for specific factors provided directly by the Buddha. Buddhaghosa, of course, provides much in the way of practices for the cultivation of concentration. ---------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ==================== With metta, Howard #63001 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 4:45 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Plamen Gradinarov" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > Thank you for your most interesting intervention. > ..... Hallo Plamen I'm afraid we disagree but maybe I don't understand you well. P: "… if one takes phenomenology to be a positivist description of what one sees/perceives or graps …" J: I don't, I take 'phenomenlogy' in the (rather loose) way of Nyanaponika: we don't know anything of reality as such, all we can have is a theory, a model, based on our experience. P: "But just because Buddhist analysis is deeply rooted in the anthropological unity known as man" J: Is it? I more think Buddhism is not anthropocentric. P: "Buddhist phenomenology is only possible as fundamental ontology (even the atoms are viewed as collisional units, starting as octets of 'primary' and 'secondary' properties " ) J: I don't know why you start talking about atoms here. Do you disagree with me that the Buddha was silent about physics? I studied modern physics and that helped me in my idea that all we have is theories about physical phenemena, especially methematically theories: if 'atoms' as such exist we do not know. And my theory about the pali-term 'rupa' is that it can best be understood as '(by a human being) experienced material qualities.'. P: " the well-known statement of Heidegger is that Buddhist phenomenology is …" J: Is is a very long time ago that I read Heidegger, I will not do it again but in my memory he is a metaphysicus. If you want to drop a name of a western philosopher comparable with my message, David Hume is a better one. Metta Joop #63002 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 4:47 am Subject: Re: the status of ideas. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Plamen, > > > ---------- > > P: Could you please elaborate on the > status of ideas in the last triad - are they part of the vijnana- > skandha, and if yes, which part? And since I have difficulties in > identifying any of the 7 vijnanas (the five sense-vijnanas, manas plus > manovijnana) to correspond to the ideas, my second guess is that ideas > are samskaras, just like any other views... > > ----------- > N: The Pali will clarify this: mind, ideas and mind consciousness. > ... > Idea is a poor translation of dhammadhÄ?tu. ... > > ****** > Nina. > Hallo Nina, Plamen One can also say: dhammadhÄ?tu is a poor translation of idea. Isn't it better to say that 'idea' is concept in Abhidhamma, and not any ultimate reality? Metta Joop #63003 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 5:56 am Subject: Re: the status of ideas. pgradinarov Dear Joop, If dharmas are the object of manas, then they should probably be considered both saMvRtti-sat (empirical) and paramArtha-sat (metaphysical). Empirical dharmas are those that cannot stand to the force of manovitarka (mental analysis) and break up to further elements, while metaphysical are those that neither vitarka nor vicAra can boil down to some more fundamental units (data). So it is in this sense that dharmas are the dhAtu for the various vRtti (modus operandi) of manas. And this is explained also in Abhidharmakosa VI.4. Best regards, Plamen > One can also say: dhammadhaatu is a poor translation of idea. > Isn't it better to say that 'idea' is concept in Abhidhamma, and not > any ultimate reality? #63004 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 6:16 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa pgradinarov Dear Joop, > P: "… if one takes phenomenology to be a positivist description of > what one sees/perceives or grasps …" > J: I don't, I take 'phenomenlogy' in the (rather loose) way of > Nyanaponika: we don't know anything of reality as such, all we can > have is a theory, a model, based on our experience. I am afraid you do. There are two kinds of phenomenology. One is the positivist and "critical" one which is close to the Kantian agnosticism as far as the cognition of the reality as such (noumena) is concerned; the other is the phenomenology of Yoga (both Hindu and Buddhist) and Husserl who share one and the same fundamental belief, namely, that the ultimate reality of the things as such (Sosein, tathata) is open to us in the act of essential vision, seeing the things as they are, yogi-pratyakSa. This is the path of samApatti. Best regards, Plamen P.S. I have no whatsoever doubts that Buddhism is anthropocentric. There is nothing wrong in this universal ancient Weltanschauung. #63005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 nilovg Hi Howard, to which texts are you specifically referring? And why? I ask this because it seems that some people think that he is downplaying this subject. Nina. Op 2-sep-2006, om 12:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Buddhaghosa, of > course, provides much in the way of practices for the cultivation of > concentration. #63006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the status of ideas. nilovg Hallo Joop, By the word idea is usually meant what can only be experienced through the mind-door. In a mind-door process of cittas nama, rupa and concepts can be the object. The word dhaatu stands for reality, not concept. Dhammadhaatu comprises cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. This is not the same as dhammaarama.na, dhamma object, since this includes cittas and concepts. Nina. Op 2-sep-2006, om 13:47 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > One can also say: dhammadhaatu is a poor translation of idea. > Isn't it better to say that 'idea' is concept in Abhidhamma, and not > any ultimate reality? #63007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:20 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 48 nilovg Dear friends, Just now I had a conversation with my husband about the above subject. He heard of colleagues who had received honours which he had not received and he realized that he was jealous and that jealousy is so ugly; when it arises one may reason and reason but it will not go away by reasoning. I remarked that attachment to the self conditions very coarse akusala, such as jealousy. The sotapanna who has eradicated the clinging to the idea of self has also eradicated jealousy, through the development of the understanding of nama and rupa in daily life, and this is the only way. Then one can begin to understand one's life which is actually a moment of experiencing an object. Sometimes the object is pleasant, sometimes unpleasant, it depends entirely on conditions. When one sees life as a series of conditioned phenomena, there will be less opportunity for jealousy. I remarked to Lodewijk that when one sees how one is overpowered by jealousy and other akusala dhammas one is really motivated to develop right understanding of nama and rupa and he agreed. I said that one can use such events as reminders to be aware now. Thus, we have enough reminders in our daily life, if we only use them: our different defilements, the uncertainty in life as to the four pleasant and the four unpleasant 'worldly conditions', praise and blame, etc., the fleetiness of our own life and that of others, separation from what we like and the persons we like, so hard to bear. I also discussed with Lodewijk his drive to work on and on. Is it all kusala, or is there also akusala? There is so much disappointment when the outcome of our work is not as we expected and then there is aversion. I quote a hearty remark from Sarah's discussions with Khun Sujin : '...We forget that it is the thinking of ourselves, making ourselves important, conceit (mana) about the outcome of our work, instead of just doing what we can, that makes life difficult at these times.' ...Khun Sujin pointed out that one should consider why and for whom one is performing or doing one's job. Is it often our own ideals or ideas that we are more concerned to carry out?' In other words, there is a lot of self in seemingly noble motives. Do we recognize that? It can be known through the development of right understanding. Panna can know everything, all the details of our life. Panna has to be keen, precise, exact. That is why phenomena such as seeing or hearing have to be known as well, they should not be overlooked. Does our life not consist of many moments of seeing or hearing? Is it not true that defilements often arise on account of what was seen and heard? Why then do we neglect seeing and hearing and why would one rather develop calm first? Then one makes a long, complicated detour, one may be misled easily by clinging to calm. In the end one cannot get away not knowing seeing and hearing, why not begin right now? ***** Nina. #63008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 67 nilovg Dear friends, Thus, of the eighteen ahetuka cittas, fifteen are ahetuka vipåkacittas and three are ahetuka kiriyacittas. The three ahetuka kiriyacittas are: 1. Pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta ( five-door-adverting-consciousness). 2. Mano-dvåråvajjana-citta ( mind-door-adverting-consciousness), which performs the function of adverting to the object through the mind-door when it arises in the mind-door process and which performs the function of votthapana (determining the object) when it arises in the sense-door process. 3. Hasituppåda-citta ( smile-producing-consciousness). Those who are not arahats can have only seventeen of the eighteen types of ahetuka citta. These seventeen types of ahetuka citta arise in our daily life. When an object impinges on one of the five senses, the pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta (the five-door-adverting-consciousness) turns towards the object through that sense-door. This citta is followed by pañca-viññåùa (one of the ten cittas which are the ``five pairs'') which experiences the object, by sampaìicchana-citta which receives it, by santíraùa-citta which investigates it and by votthapana-citta which determines the object and then by akusala cittas or kusala cittas. When the cittas of the sense-door process have fallen away the object is experienced through the mind-door. The mano-dvåråvajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door and is then followed by akusala cittas or kusala cittas. There is ``unwise attention'' (ayoniso manasikåra) to the object which is experienced if akusala cittas arise, and there is ``wise attention'' (yoniso manasikåra) to the object if kusala cittas arise. For example, when we see insects there may be dislike and then there are dosa-múla-cittas, cittas rooted in aversion. Thus there is unwise attention. The dosa may be so strong that one wants to kill the insects; then there is akusala kamma. If one realizes that killing is akusala and one abstains from killing, there are kusala cittas and thus there is wise attention. If one studies the Dhamma and develops vipassanå, insight, it is a condition that there is more often wise attention. When we are mindful of the nåma or rúpa which appears through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door, there is wise attention at that moment. ****** NIna. #63009 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:35 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa icarofranca Dear Plamen! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > the other is the phenomenology of Yoga (both Hindu and > Buddhist) and Husserl who share one and the same fundamental belief, > namely, that the ultimate reality of the things as such (Sosein, > tathata) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Only a remark: The word coined up by Heidegger - a good aproximation for "Tathata" - is "Dasein" and not "Sosein". Dasein is the own "as that is ", the being in his own field, a pure representation of conscience. After the meeting with the external world the Dasein assumes a new costume - the "In Der Welt Sein", or the being at the world. All these postulates were raised by Heiddeger, Husserl, Jaspers and others, with a plain concordance with the best and sound buddistic doctrine. Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------------------------- > P.S. I have no whatsoever doubts that Buddhism is anthropocentric. > There is nothing wrong in this universal ancient Weltanschauung. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto! #63010 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/2/06 10:07:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > to which texts are you specifically referring? And why? > I ask this because it seems that some people think that he is > downplaying this subject. > Nina. > ===================== I'm speaking about the Vism, which some people have actually referred to as a meditation manual, though I wouldn't describe it that way. He goes into details there about the preparation and use of kasinas, discusses breath meditation, and also discusses at length what meditation subjects are particularly suitable for particular types of mentalities, with anapanasati a practice suitable for all types I seem to recall. I can't imagine anyone thinking that Buddhaghosa downplays the subject of cultivating concentration. With metta, Howard #63011 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 8:24 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa pgradinarov Dear Ícaro, In the German phenomenology, Dasein and Sosein were taken over from the scholastic philosophy with their meaning of existentia and essentia. The existentia (Dasein) is the object of phenomenological reduction because it is the contingent being of the things, their saMvRtti-sat, wheil the things as they are reside in the ontic province of Sosein, which term is as though calqued from the Sanskrit tathAtA. TathAtA are the transcendental phenomena whose only mark is to be self- indicative (svalakSaNa) - they are presented to us directly, by no representative or symbolyzing means (animitta) - Scheler and Heidegger would say, selbstzeigende Washeiten. Actually their animittatva is their svalakSaNatva, is further their tathAtA. Wheil tatratA (Dasein) refers to the empirical things here and now. Analysis shows that their satya is saMvRtti, conventional, hic-et-nunc contingent, hence they are not the paramArtha-dharmas - which PD are not dependent on, and beyond the empirical space and time. I would suggest all interested in comparative philosophy to join us at http://www.ratnavali.com/forum - as DSG has its own agenda. Best regards, Plamen > The word coined up by Heidegger - a good aproximation for "Tathata" - > is "Dasein" and not "Sosein". Dasein is the own "as that is ", the > being in his own field, a pure representation of conscience. After the > meeting with the external world the Dasein assumes a new costume - > the "In Der Welt Sein", or the being at the world. > All these postulates were raised by Heiddeger, Husserl, Jaspers and > others, with a plain concordance with the best and sound buddistic > doctrine. #63012 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for answering. Mindfulness of Breath is suitable for Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas and Buddha's sons. We could read about the discussion on this in Rob's forum I recently quoted. Not everybody appreciates the words that very few people can attain access concentration and jhaana. Nina. Op 2-sep-2006, om 16:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm speaking about the Vism, which some people have actually referred > to as a meditation manual, though I wouldn't describe it that way. > He goes > into details there about the preparation and use of kasinas, #63013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 11:26 am Subject: Jealousy nilovg Dear Daniel, My Letter today was about jealousy and I have a few more thoughts about akusala one does not want to have. I quote part from my Letter: Akusala does not go away by reasoning and thinking. What type of citta is thinking, that is the question. There is no short term resolution to this problem. There is only a gradual way: develop understanding of all kinds of realities by reading, studying, discussion. It cannot possibly be anything else but understanding, pa~n~naa that knows: this is akusala, this is kusala. I quote from Kh Sujin's book on the Perfections, where she quotes from the Cariyapitaka: <“And as a clever surgeon knows which food is suitable, and which is not, evenso is understanding...” Here we see that paññå should be developed in daily life so that it thoroughly knows and penetrates the characteristics of realities. We read: “Evenso, understanding as it arises knows states as kusala or akusala, serviceable or unserviceable, low or exalted, black or pure, similar or dissimilar. And this was said by the ‘General of the Dhamma’ (Såriputta): ‘It knows; thus, monk, it is in consequence called understanding. And what does it know? This is dukkha, etc. Thus it should be expanded. And thus knowing should be regarded as the characteristic of understanding.’ Here is another view: Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in the forest.” This is the characteristic of paññå which knows everything as it really is. When satipaììhåna does not arise, we spend our day with ignorance: we do not know which kind of akusala citta arises, what degree of lobha accompanies akusala citta, and we cannot clearly distinguish between attachment arising through the eyes, the ears or the mind-door. The whole day we are ignorant of the truth of realities. When paññå arises, it knows precisely which dhammas are kusala and which are akusala. There is no need to ask someone else whether it is kusala or akusala that arises, because paññå is able to understand this. Paññå knows which dhammas are beneficial and which are not. When akusala citta arises paññå clearly understands it; it knows the danger of akusala and it knows that akusala should not increase. When kusala citta arises paññå clearly understands it and it knows the benefit of kusala. As we read in the Commentary, paññå knows the characeristics of the dhammas that are low or exalted, dark or pure.> #63014 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/2/06 2:13:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Thank you for answering. > Mindfulness of Breath is suitable for Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas and > Buddha's sons. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear as what that means. I assume it pertains to what one's goal is. As for who would find this subject suitable to his/her temperament, on p. 114 of The Path of Purification, Buddhaghosa is recorded to have written "Mindfulness of breathing is the one [recollection as a] meditation subject suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative temperament." ------------------------------------------- We could read about the discussion on this in Rob's > > forum I recently quoted. > Not everybody appreciates the words that very few people can attain > access concentration and jhaana. -------------------------------------------- Howard: There are some on DSG who can, and many elsewhere who can. ------------------------------------------ > Nina. > ====================== With metta, Howard #63015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from cold and wet Noosa! nilovg Hi Phil, Expositor, II, 369, it is explained: The original discussion was: why is the adverting-consciousness not vipaaka. I am very cautious, since kamma is the field of the Buddhas. Moreover, the reason is not given in the commentaries. I was reflecting on it, and gave my own thought, just a thought, nothing more. I believe that that very first moment, namely adverting, is not yet an oportunity for kamma to give result. There is just some awakening after the sleep. Nina. Op 2-sep-2006, om 2:03 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > It seems from the visitor-at-the-door simile that the adverting > consciousness most certainly only adverts and does not experience - it > is compared to...what is it compared to in that simile? #63016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Samahita, You explained this very well with the examples. I would like to add some examples from the Atthasalini (Expositor I, Courses of Immoral Action, p. 132, on harsh speech): With respect, Nina. Op 1-sep-2006, om 11:42 heeft Bhikkhu Samahita het volgende geschreven: > common Examples from Daily Real-Life Situations: > > A: > A father have 52 times told his son not to enter the high-way. > His son (9 years) is about to go out onto the highway after his > ball. #63017 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 3:24 pm Subject: Re: e-card from cold and wet Noosa! philofillet Hi Nina > The original discussion was: why is the adverting-consciousness not > vipaaka. I am very cautious, since kamma is the field of the Buddhas. > Moreover, the reason is not given in the commentaries. > I was reflecting on it, and gave my own thought, just a thought, > nothing more. > I believe that that very first moment, namely adverting, is not yet > an oportunity for kamma to give result. There is just some awakening > after the sleep. I see. I didn't know the context of the whole discussion. That's a danger when I just dip in now and then. Thanks. Phil #63018 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] village monk 2 buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Leo, > I think that not the place itself is praised, but the person who has > eradicated all defilements. The purity is not in the place but in the > citta of that person. > Nina. Actually, I think it could be both. The Buddha, before passing into paranibbana, said that there were four 'places' worthy of visiting (for the faithful): his birthplace, where he achieved enlightenment, where he taught his first disciples, and where he died. If there was nothing significant about the 'place', I don't think the Buddha would have taught this. BTW, haven't you visited all of these places? Why would you do that if you didn't think it was significant? Metta, James ps. Not an important point really, but I wanted to point out that there are elements of faith and mysticism to Buddhism which are often overlooked. #63019 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Nina: Thanx for this inverse example of non-harsh yet till wrong speech...! It confirms that it is the INTENTION motivating the speech that is the determinant factor of whether it is right/wrong, and advantageous/detrimental. That goes also for much action/thought. However. I fear that even this inverse example is insufficient to overcome the wrong view of our apparently Muslim friend. Let it then be even so for the time being. Such discrimination is apparently not trivial or possible for an outsider on may learn here... That also may naturally change hopefully to the better! >The words of one desirous of killing: 'Let him sleep in comfort!' are >not soft; because of the harshness of thought the words are harsh... -- vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <....> #63020 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 7:53 pm Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, Perhaps I came across a little too strongly in this post. Sorry, I was in one of my "crusade" (to borrow from Bhikkhu Samahita) moods. :-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > Whoa James! Did I really refer to my post as being "against jhana"? I > don't think so, because I have never spoken against jhana. James: Well, you haven't really spoken in favor of the development of jhana either- at least not for householders; and since this is a group predominately of householders, in essence you have spoken against jhana. I don't think that this is some sort of legal issue where loopholes are permissible, this is the dhamma and the speech should be straight. > > It's true I don't share your own particular view on matters such as what > the development of jhana involves, James: There are no "views" on what the development of jhana involves. It is a very black and white issue. Jhana involves mental absorption into a meditation object. That's it. How could my views on this subject be different from your views? or the significance of passages in > certain suttas, but that does not make my view an 'anti-jhana' one, > surely?? ;-)) James: I'm afraid it does. Again, Jon, this is not a legal issue and leading questions don't answer or point to the truth. If all you can stand on is leading questions than your ground is not very stable. > > > In Phil's case he came to realise that what he had been taking for metta > was not in fact metta, but was akusala of some form or another. Is that > not something to be applauded? James: That may be you interpretation of events but that isn't the way I saw it. Yes, Phil was approaching metta meditation in the wrong way because he was doing it simply as an 'escapism' from his daily problems and pressures. However, rather than being pointed in the right direction and explained the purpose of metta meditation, he was lead to believe that everyone who performs metta meditation does so for selfish, 'akusala' reasons. > > Everyone who quotes texts quotes a selected part only. James: Yes, of course; however, that selected text shouldn't contradict the main meaning of the text. Even a whole sutta > can be a 'partial text' in relation to a point, depending on what the > point is. James: This I don't agree with. A whole sutta is not a partial text, it is an entire text. I am getting the feeling that you and I are speaking different languages here. I am following the standards set forth from the MLA, Modern Language Association. > > As regards the suggestion of text manipulation, I must say I was not able > to follow your point. It seemed to me that the 'omitted' material that > you quoted was fully consistent with the comment that breath was a > difficult subject for the development of samatha. James: There is a big difference between "difficult" and "virtually impossible". The quoted material by you-know-who made anapanasati seem "virtually impossible", while the true message of the text is that anapanasati is difficult but the meditator shouldn't quit prematurely when it becomes difficult. > > Jon > Metta, James #63021 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Revisited buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > ... > > That's six of one, half dozen of another. If we don't know metta > > when meditating, we are probably even less likely to know when it > > occurs during our busy and hectic lives. > > You think that the distinction between true metta and something that seems > like metta but isn't can best be known when doing metta meditation rather > than in daily life. I'd be interested to know why you think this. James: I didn't mention anything about "something that seems like metta"; therefore, you have missed my point entirely. To my > way of thinking, a person who is consciously trying to have more metta > (which is what I understand by 'doing metta meditation') would be more > likely to take non-metta for metta than would someone who was not > consciously making that effort. James: Well, I suppose you can think this if you want, but it is in direct contradiction with what the Buddha taught. How can you know the texts so well and yet not know this simple issue? (How's that for a leading question?? LOL!) > > Perhaps you see a 'busy and hectic' life as meaning that dhammas cannot be > seen as they are. I don't think that need be the case. Of course, if we > hold to that view it would certainly be an obstacle to any level of > awareness arising during our daily life. James: Well, I wouldn't say it is an obstacle to "any level of awareness" arising during our daily householder life, but it is decidedly more difficult. Remember, the Buddha described the householder life as a dusty path. You may believe that you have taken a hoover to yours, but I doubt it. ;-)) > > Jon > Metta, James #63022 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 8:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Thank you for answering. > Mindfulness of Breath is suitable for Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas and > Buddha's sons. We could read about the discussion on this in Rob's > forum I recently quoted. Grrrrrr!!! This is not what the Vism. said about this subject! You- know-who misquoted the relevant passage. The Vism. states that Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas, and Buddha's sons are 'at home' in anapanasati, but for the rest of the meditators it will be difficult to practice. This is an entirely different meaning! > Not everybody appreciates the words that very few people can attain > access concentration and jhaana. Again, it isn't that few poeple 'can', it's that few people 'do'. Most people don't practice to the extent necessary. It takes a lot of time and dedication. > Nina. > Metta, James #63023 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 2, 2006 8:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 buddhatrue Hi Nina, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: The Vism. states that > Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas, and Buddha's sons are 'at home' in > anapanasati, but for the rest of the meditators it will be difficult > to practice. I guess I should add that I have taken this advice from the Vism. to heart and I have changed my meditation object, for the time being. Now, during my daily practice, I am using the blue kasina as my object of concentration, and no longer the breath. Honestly, I do find it much easier to concentrate on the blue kasina than my breath. It was quite easy for me to make a blue kasina. I just opened Microsoft Paint (available in all Windows versions), used the circle tool to make a large circle and filled it in with dark blue. Then I printed that from a color printer and darkened it a bit with a blue marker. So, I have a blue kasina above my Buddha shrine, at eye level, which I focus on in the mornings and evenings; and I have the blue kasina in my computer which I can focus on at work when I have free time. It seems to be working quite nicely. If anyone would like a color kasina (the Vism. lists: blue, red, yellow, and white), but don't know how to make one, contact me off- list and I can e-mail one to you. Metta, James #63024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kasina, village monk 2 nilovg Hi James, the blue kasina, how inventive to make it in the modern way. When you give instructions to others, it is good to mention not to make the colour appealing. As you also know the Visuddhimagga warns that there may be attachment to the colour, whereas the aim is detachment from sense objects. I am glad you brought up the holy places. see below. Op 3-sep-2006, om 4:09 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Actually, I think it could be both. The Buddha, before passing into > paranibbana, said that there were four 'places' worthy of visiting > (for > the faithful): his birthplace, where he achieved enlightenment, where > he taught his first disciples, and where he died. If there was nothing > significant about the 'place', I don't think the Buddha would have > taught this. ------- N:I think as to the place in the foirest where the arahat stayed, this might be a way of praising the virtues of the arahat. As to the holy places, these remind us of the virtues of the Buddha. They are vivid reminders because he stayed at those very places. It is a way of paying respect to the Buddha to go to these places. --------- > > J: BTW, haven't you visited all of these places? Why would you do > that if > you didn't think it was significant? > > ps. Not an important point really, but I wanted to point out that > there > are elements of faith and mysticism to Buddhism which are often > overlooked. ------- N: I have visited them many, many times and I will go again next year. As to faith and mysticism, difficult areas to know, because here clinging can come in and play us tricks. Faith or confidence is so close to attachment, I find for myself. For instance, if I think: I am so impressed, this is a wonderful experience, I understand better now that attachment is always, always around the corner. I can only speak with regard to myself, not about others. What do I know about other people's jhaana or clinging to jhaana. I mostly know events in retrospect, not at the very moment so much. That is why I appreciate Kh. Sujin's constant reminders she gives us at the holy places: the greatest respect to the Buddha is awareness and understanding of this moment. That is much clearer than knowing things in retrospect and understanding can begin for sure. The Buddha's relics are placed on our heads in Sarnath and last time Lodewijk and I were allowed to go to the place where they are kept in a deep cellar and help carrying them to the front. I realised more than before that we can overlook the countless moments of attachment. And also aversion, things happened so that this did not go so smoothly, someone speaking loudly. Aversion is conditioned by attachment. The different cittas go so fast, so fast. I see more that it can only be kusala citta with understanding that understands different moments. There are so many akusala cittas compared to rare moments of kusala, and even rarer are kusala cittas with pa~n~naa. This is not discouraging, what matters is, understanding both akusala cittas and kusala cittas. --------- J: The Vism. states that Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas, and Buddha's sons are 'at home' in anapanasati, ------- N: Here we cannot avoid the Pali: manasikaarabhuumibhuuta.m, what has become a foundation for (right) attention. They are well established in anapanasati. I agree that all these texts are not so easy at first sight. Nina. #63025 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The svabhava of svabhava ashkenn2k Hi Plamen > Under 'bhAva' the PTS dictionary says -- sabhAva (sva+bhAva), so we shall assume that this is the characteristic nature of a thing, its > specific (sva) feature that make it particular being (sva-bhAva). > It is also translated as own nature, intrinsic nature, even essence. But if the etymology is derived from sa+bhAva in the meaning of possessing bhAva, then the word can be interpreted as 'existent'. This may cause much confusion when trying to properly differentiate between svabhAva and sabhAva. k: Indeed there was a problem in translating this term properly and it has caused a lot of misunderstanding. It was translated as individual essence by Ven Nanamoli which was rather unfortunate as I realise he derived the term from "bearing its own characteristics". It was meant to be particular property of a particular dhamma, it is not meant to be universal. > Yet, even this ultimate particular - allegedly the last possible > predicate, - can be predicated. And its predicate is the > efficiency. k: I do not understand this statement, could you explain further = thanks Cheers Ken O #63026 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! icarofranca Hi Ven. Samahita! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I fear that even this inverse example is insufficient > to overcome the wrong view of our apparently Muslim friend. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Only Apparently muslim, Bhante... and even so I am not le physique du rôle! And you see...Wrong again, Ven. Samahita! She had put this question at the real perspective! Nina examples are always just at the sensitive point: not so brightly coloured and sometimes with so much erudition, but they are the best clarification here at the DSG! Mettaya and Ilhamdu Lillah! Ícaro #63027 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa ashkenn2k Hi TG and Howard > > TG: I believe I qualified my statement by stating that is was due > to DO that states are empty of themselves. I'll stand by the "itself" comment. I don't see a meaningful difference between self and itself especially when the justification for such language is already established as being DO based. > TG: I did not say and will not say that "empty of itself" means > non-existence. (I can see how you think so though.) It is really > an attempt to strongly "de-entify" the mind's outlook. k: As far as I know, Buddha say it in the SN in the Book of Casuations, feeling exist, all the D.O. exists. It also said that it exist because it is dependent of other conditions to arise. It is not a coreless and it is not an echo. We can cognize the quality or characteristics Secondly in Books of Casuations, I have seen the text it is dhamma is empty of itself. But is said clearly, it is empty of I making. > > > TG: Heat arises due to "other" conditioning factors. Heat is not > an entity or a quality "of itself." The state of heat arises and alters, but it is an "echo" of "other echos/conditions." Heat does not contain "its own" quality. Heat dissipates and alters because it cannot "live with itself." So too all conditions. None of these terms can satisfactorily describe the indescribable -- emptiness. They are just tools to prompt insight so that the mind > can become aloof and detached from conditions. > > We might say that an echo has "its own" qualities...but that > approach just instills attachment to conditions IMO. If I said an echo was "empty of itself" that might be easier to swallow? But that statement equally applies to all conditions. k: Yes heat arise due ot other conditions but heat exist because o dependent conditions. And secondly it is not about being easily to sallow. I always believe each individual is entitled to their own views and I respected yours. I just like to say that if heat is an echo, then it is an illusion. If heat is an illusion, would you say something is hot when there is a heat. When heat cease, it means it cease. it changes in hot and cold or sometimes hot sometimes not and then hot again, but it does not change the fact that when there is heat, it is hot. The condition that helps it to arise does not delete the fact that this heat exist just like echo cannot happen if there is no sound making it or mirage could not have happen with the heat waves. And furthermore heat waves, sound have their own unique characteristics which in turn also conditioned by the sun as well as the a man who shouts in the valley. Kind regards Ken O #63028 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 matheesha333 Hi James, > > It was quite easy for me to make a blue kasina. I just opened > Microsoft Paint (available in all Windows versions), used the circle > tool to make a large circle and filled it in with dark blue. Then I > printed that from a color printer and darkened it a bit with a blue > marker. So, I have a blue kasina above my Buddha shrine, at eye > level, which I focus on in the mornings and evenings; and I have the > blue kasina in my computer which I can focus on at work when I have > free time. :), nice one! Matheesha #63029 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kasina, village monk 2 matheesha333 Hi Nina, > The different cittas go so fast, so fast. I see more that it can only > be kusala citta with understanding that understands different > moments. There are so many akusala cittas compared to rare moments of > kusala, and even rarer are kusala cittas with pa~n~naa. This is not > discouraging, what matters is, understanding both akusala cittas and > kusala cittas. 2 questions Nina. Appreciate any clarifications: Do you differentiate punna with kusala? What factors help to identify kusala when it arises? with metta Matheesha #63030 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The svabhava of svabhava pgradinarov Dear Ken, Efficiency is the translation for the ability of all paramartha- dharmas to directly affect our senses, i.e., to exert objective action (arthakriya) upon our mind taken as antarindriya - even before the creation and independently of any vikalpas (mental constructions). Knowledge of this kind of primordial efficiency is part of the immanent criteria of truth and is a general characteristic of all and any svalaksana. Hence the conclusion that even the ultimate particular can be predicated. More about this, see here http://www.ratnavali.com/forum/topic,221.msg2075/ Best regards, Plamen > > Yet, even this ultimate particular - allegedly the last possible > > predicate, - can be predicated. And its predicate is the > > efficiency. > > k: I do not understand this statement, could you explain further = > thanks #63031 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and TG) - In a message dated 9/3/06 9:29:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi TG and Howard > > > > > >TG: I believe I qualified my statement by stating that is was due > >to DO that states are empty of themselves. I'll stand by the > "itself" comment. I don't see a meaningful difference between self > and itself especially when the justification for such language is > already established as being DO based. > > >TG: I did not say and will not say that "empty of itself" means > >non-existence. (I can see how you think so though.) It is really > >an attempt to strongly "de-entify" the mind's outlook. > > k: As far as I know, Buddha say it in the SN in the Book of > Casuations, feeling exist, all the D.O. exists. It also said that it > exist because it is dependent of other conditions to arise. It is > not a coreless and it is not an echo. We can cognize the quality or > characteristics ---------------------------------------- Howard: It is not a matter of whether or not dhammas exist [They do!] but of the manner in which they exist. They exist, but not as anything IN AND OF THEMSELVES. Also, merely asserting that dhammas are not coreless and not "echoes" doesn't make it so. TG and I assert the contrary, but we do so for a reason: By their being coreless and mere "echoes", we mean exactly that they exist in utter dependence on other, equally coreless, phenomena. And as to cognizing the quality "of" a dhamma, IMO that is not the best way to speak. Paramattha dhammas - rupas, certainly - are not things that *have* qualities. They *are* qualities. Even namas such as vi~n~nana should not be thought of as things that have qualities. Vi~n~nana is knowing or being aware. It is what it is. A vi~n~nana isn't a thing that *has* the quality of knowing; it *is* a knowing. ---------------------------------------------- > > > Secondly in Books of Casuations, I have seen the text it is dhamma is > empty of itself. But is said clearly, it is empty of I making. > > >> > >TG: Heat arises due to "other" conditioning factors. Heat is not > >an entity or a quality "of itself." The state of heat arises and > alters, but it is an "echo" of "other echos/conditions." Heat does > not contain "its own" quality. Heat dissipates and alters because > it cannot "live with itself." So too all conditions. None of > these terms can satisfactorily describe the indescribable -- > emptiness. They are just tools to prompt insight so that the mind > >can become aloof and detached from conditions. > > > >We might say that an echo has "its own" qualities...but that > >approach just instills attachment to conditions IMO. If I said an > echo was "empty of itself" that might be easier to swallow? But > that statement equally applies to all conditions. > > k: Yes heat arise due ot other conditions but heat exist because o > dependent conditions. And secondly it is not about being easily to > sallow. I always believe each individual is entitled to their own > views and I respected yours. I just like to say that if heat is an > echo, then it is an illusion. > --------------------------------------- Howard: An occurrence of heat is no illusion. But the apprehending of that heat as its own thing *is* an illusory cognizing. The heat as a thing-in-itself is illusion. --------------------------------------- If heat is an illusion, would you say> > something is hot when there is a heat. When heat cease, it means it > cease. it changes in hot and cold or sometimes hot sometimes not and > then hot again, but it does not change the fact that when there is > heat, it is hot. The condition that helps it to arise does not > delete the fact that this heat exist just like echo cannot happen if > there is no sound making it or mirage could not have happen with the > heat waves. And furthermore heat waves, sound have their own > unique characteristics which in turn also conditioned by the sun as > well as the a man who shouts in the valley. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Heat is heat and sound is sound, and they are distinguishable. And should either arise, at that time it exists. But its existence is a borrowed existence and not intrinsic. That is the middle-way mode of existence, and that is reality. ---------------------------------------- > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > ==================== With metta, Howard #63032 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 matheesha333 Hi Nina, >N: > Mindfulness of Breath is suitable for Buddhas, Paccheka Buddhas and > > Buddha's sons. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear as what that means. I assume it pertains to what one's > goal is. M: Well the buddha's sons (buddhaputta) are his disciples. Especially the bikkhus. That it precludes lay people seems unlikely. There were thousands of anagamis during the buddhas time who had completeted samma samadhi living lay lives according to the suttas. A few are even individually mentioned along with their special abilities. Anapanasathi being a such a basic meditation would have been practiced among the layity. > We could read about the discussion on this in Rob's > > > > forum I recently quoted. > > Not everybody appreciates the words that very few people can attain > > access concentration and jhaana. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There are some on DSG who can, and many elsewhere who can. > ------------------------------------------ > M: In my experience the ability to attain jhana has a lot to do with 1) right view (jhanas being important, jhanas being attainable, the best way to do it) 2) belief in one's efficacy/self esteem 3) willingness to put in the effort (and putting it in!) 4) having a fairly settled life/mind and being virtuous. lastly 5) being in a retreat situation, but not exclusively. quiet surrounds do help a great deal. with metta Matheesha #63033 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 8:44 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa jwromeijn Hallo Plamen Three points in reaction on your message: It will not surprise me if there are more than two kinds. But my belief (or better: my workingptheory) is NOT your second one: P: "the phenomenology of Yoga (both Hindu and Buddhist) and Husserl who share one and the same fundamental belief, namely, that the ultimate reality of the things as such (Sosein, tathata) is open to us in the act of essential vision, seeing the things as they are." P: "I have no whatsoever doubts that Buddhism is anthropocentric.There is nothing wrong in this universal ancient Weltanschauung." Oh no, Buddhism is not anthropocentric and we (human being) should not perceive ourselves as the most important beings in the universe; the realm of human beings is just one of the realms. And I don't like the term 'Weltanschauung': too much methaphysical; I will not give Theravada this label. When you like german words, I prefer: 'Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber musz man schweigen.' For the third time I will ask you (no idea why you didn't respond): do agree with me that the pali-term 'rupa' can best be understood as '(by someone) experienced material qualities.', and not as 'matter' or 'form'? Metta Joop #63034 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... Hi Ken O In a message dated 9/3/2006 7:29:38 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Hi TG and Howard > > TG: I believe I qualified my statement by stating that is was due > to DO that states are empty of themselves. I'll stand by the "itself" comment. I don't see a meaningful difference between self and itself especially when the justification for such language is already established as being DO based. > TG: I did not say and will not say that "empty of itself" means > non-existence. (I can see how you think so though.) It is really > an attempt to strongly "de-entify" the mind's outlook. k: As far as I know, Buddha say it in the SN in the Book of Casuations, feeling exist, all the D.O. exists. It also said that it exist because it is dependent of other conditions to arise. It is not a coreless and it is not an echo. TG: As far as I know the Buddha said feelings arise. If he had said feelings "exist," that would contradict another Sutta that specifically dealt with that topic and rejected views of existence or non-existence. We can cognize the quality or characteristics TG: Yes the mind can. It can cognize what arises. An echo does arise! Secondly in Books of Casuations, I have seen the text it is dhamma is empty of itself. But is said clearly, it is empty of I making. TG: Could you please clarify this. > > > TG: Heat arises due to "other" conditioning factors. Heat is not > an entity or a quality "of itself." The state of heat arises and alters, but it is an "echo" of "other echos/conditions." Heat does not contain "its own" quality. Heat dissipates and alters because it cannot "live with itself." So too all conditions. None of these terms can satisfactorily describe the indescribable -- emptiness. They are just tools to prompt insight so that the mind > can become aloof and detached from conditions. > > We might say that an echo has "its own" qualities...but that > approach just instills attachment to conditions IMO. If I said an echo was "empty of itself" that might be easier to swallow? But that statement equally applies to all conditions. k: Yes heat arise due ot other conditions but heat exist because o dependent conditions. And secondly it is not about being easily to sallow. I always believe each individual is entitled to their own views and I respected yours. I just like to say that if heat is an echo, then it is an illusion. TG: An echo is not an illusion. An echo arises as much as any other condition. Traditionally an echo is sound. If heat is an illusion, would you say something is hot when there is a heat. When heat cease, it means it cease. it changes in hot and cold or sometimes hot sometimes not and then hot again, but it does not change the fact that when there is heat, it is hot. TG: This doesn't apply as I don't hold the view that heat is an illusion. The condition that helps it to arise does not delete the fact that this heat exist just like echo cannot happen if there is no sound making it or mirage could not have happen with the heat waves. And furthermore heat waves, sound have their own unique characteristics which in turn also conditioned by the sun as well as the a man who shouts in the valley. TG: The condition that generates heat determines the nature of heat. It is impermanent and selfless. I agree with the gist of the above. Where you and I differ is in how much credence we give the states that do arise. The minds tendency is to think things exist. That they have substance. It is important to overcome that type of thinking because that type of thinking is "grasping oriented." States arise, change, and cease. Nothing more, nothing less. To think they exist or do not exist are two extremes that are attachment oriented and "view based" IMO. Yes they arise, yes we can pay attention to them....to their alterations. That's as far as it need go. Let's not create a view of them being "ultimately real" substance that make up experience. Mere conditions make up experience. Conditions are empty and void according to the Buddha. They arise and cease and the system of samsara is mere affliction. This stuff (dhammas) should be seen as a murderer in the process of killing you. The mind should learn to "see through dhammas" and realize they are not what they appear to be. Don't go "half way" and just realize that the glass is not a glass, but hardness. Go all the way and realize that hardness is also not what it appears to be. Kind regards Ken O TG #63035 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/3/2006 8:34:38 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: It is not a matter of whether or not dhammas exist [They do!] but of the manner in which they exist. They exist, but not as anything IN AND OF THEMSELVES. Also, merely asserting that dhammas are not coreless and not "echoes" doesn't make it so. TG and I assert the contrary, but we do so for a reason: By their being coreless and mere "echoes", we mean exactly that they exist in utter dependence on other, equally coreless, phenomena. And as to cognizing the quality "of" a dhamma, IMO that is not the best way to speak. Paramattha dhammas - rupas, certainly - are not things that *have* qualities. They *are* qualities. Even namas such as vi~n~nana should not be thought of as things that have qualities. Vi~n~nana is knowing or being aware. It is what it is. A vi~n~nana isn't a thing that *has* the quality of knowing; it *is* a knowing. Hi Howard and Ken O It will come as no shock that I quite agree with this. Probably a clearer expression than what I have stated. The statement Howard claims that I assert is EXACTLY what I assert. I would suggest, and Howard may agree, that his use of the word "exist" does not mean it has its own quality, but merely that it is a condition that has arisen in dependence. Therefore it should not be regarded as "its own thing," but rather, as "empty of its own thing." TG #63036 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Nina, Sorry for the late reply. >N: About duration of jhaana for someone who is skilled, no problem. But > during that time the object does not change, citta is not shifetd to > a sense object, impossible. Only the meditation subject is > experienced through the mind-door. > The jhaanafactors affect the body, but he does not know this while in > jhaana. > When he has emerged it can be noticed. Like we read in some suttas: > your faculties are very clear, why? Because of bhaavanaa. M: I think if you look at the texts your conclusions are, on balance, correct! I can only say 2 things :), -the buddha had to attain animitta samadhi to escape his bodily pains and not just a rupa jhana and -the suttas dont say anything about coming out of the jhana to know the extend of piti, in fact the wording suggests that it is experienced while in a jhaana. I will have to leave it at that because certain types of evidence isnt acceptable on this forum! N: When insight realizes nama as nama and rupa as > rupa also samaadhi, calm and concentration are developed more > together with insight. By conditions, we do not have to try to > develop calm separately. I mean, this is not a necessary condiiton > for insight. But it depends on a person's inclinations whether he is > inclined to develop samatha or not. M: Why do you suppose that the buddha said that he would teach samatha to a person who has gained insight? with metta Matheesha #63037 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher matheesha333 Hi Jon, > Thanks for coming in on this thread, and for the sutta quote. Would you > mind saying a few words about the relevance of the quote? As I see it, it > is saying that a person who has attained jhana but not enlightenment would > seek instruction (from an enlightened person) in the development of > insight. Thanks. M: Yes it is. I got the impression from what you said that you felt that one needed to place oneself under a teacher only if he was developing samatha/jhana. Hence the quote to show that regardless of it being development of samatha or vipassana, a (skilful) teacher is helpful. with metta Matheesha #63038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kasina, village monk 2 nilovg Hi Matheesha, very good questions for considering. 1. Pu~n~na is often translated as merit. It is kusala. Think of the pu~n~na kiriyavatthu, the ten bases of meritorious deeds: included in daana, siila, bhaavana. The difference is more in the context where they are used. Kusala is said of the citta, kusala citta, but unless it is very weak (you think of giving but do not do it) it is the same as kusala kamma. Even if it arises for a few moments. 2. What factors help to identify kusala when it arises? Only understanding. Actually, direct awareness and understanding. When we think about it, it has gone. As I said to James, thinking in retrospect is not so clear. Besides, we may think with attachment or conceit and then there is already ignorance, because ignorance arises with each akusala citta. It helps to listen to the teachings and commentaries: kusala is pure, it is without lobha, dosa and moha. It arises with calm and detachment. There is no disturbance by restlessness as is the case when akusala citta arises. This has to be verified in daily life, it is not merely theory. By listening understanding grows and then we learn that it has a characteristic, different from akusala. We can become familiar with its characteristic when it appears. But it is necessary to become familiar with all the characteristics that appear through the six doors. That is the development of insight. This sort of questions are very helpful for everyone, always good if you have more. Nina. Op 3-sep-2006, om 16:13 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > 2 questions Nina. Appreciate any clarifications: > > Do you differentiate punna with kusala? > > What factors help to identify kusala when it arises? #63039 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 nilovg Hi Matheesha, I do not know what to answer, but I feel this is your conviction and if a person feels in this or that way let him write about it. Nina. Op 3-sep-2006, om 16:32 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > M: In my experience the ability to attain jhana has a lot to do with > 1) right view (jhanas being important, jhanas being attainable, the > best way to do it) > 2) belief in one's efficacy/self esteem > 3) willingness to put in the effort (and putting it in!) > 4) having a fairly settled life/mind and being virtuous. > lastly > 5) being in a retreat situation, but not exclusively. quiet surrounds > do help a great deal. #63040 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi Matheesha, Op 3-sep-2006, om 20:06 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > the buddha had to attain > animitta samadhi to escape his bodily pains and not just a rupa jhana > ---------- N: I think that he, by conditions would at times attain phala- samaapatti, experiencing nibbaana. -------- > and -the suttas dont say anything about coming out of the jhana to > know the extend of piti, in fact the wording suggests that it is > experienced while in a jhaana. ------ N: One citta experiences one object at a time. That is all I know. > --------- > N: ... By conditions, we do not have to try to > > develop calm separately. I mean, this is not a necessary condiiton > > for insight. But it depends on a person's inclinations whether he > is > > inclined to develop samatha or not. > -------- > M: Why do you suppose that the buddha said that he would teach > samatha to a person who has gained insight? -------- N: We have to look at the context. For some it may be the right thing, but, certainly not separated from insight. That makes it all different from before the Buddha's time. It has to be different! Nina. #63041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:43 am Subject: Letters from Nina 49 nilovg Dear friends, Sarah discussed with Khun Sujin her clinging to concepts such as 'Adelaide', the place where she lives, and clinging to stories about people and situations she likes or dislikes. In reality they are only nama and rupa. Khun Sujin often advises not to try to change one's life, it is conditioned already, but to 'follow' it with sati. I quote from Sarah’s letter: ...Following life with sati. This is another way of describing how there should be more awareness and understanding of the 'uninvited guests' through the different doorways. Instead of comparing or thinking of another situation, one can learn to follow what is conditioned already, and develop sati. If one is in a hectic work situation or feels one is torn in too many directions, as I suggested I felt, what can one do? Panic and worry obviously do not help.... Of course it sounds very easy when Khun Sujin says' just follow life with sati'. I started thinking or worrying about the same situations arising when I would return to Adelaide. She suggested 'cutting the story' with sati. A moment of awareness which is aware of thinking as thinking can help to make the story a little shorter each time. If there is more consideration for others, what we are used to thinking of as the unpleasant situations can slowly become pleasant. It is so obvious that real happiness in life is not a matter of following the objects of our attachment but helping to make others happy and fitting in with what they would like. Yet, even though we have heard this and it seems clear at a time, it is still such a change of direction that it is only gradually obvious on more than a theoretical level. End quote. ****** Nina. #63042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life 68. nilovg Dear friends, When there are two people in the same situation, one person may have unwise attention and the other may have wise attention, depending on their accumulations. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana- vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, chapter V, §202, Lustful) about the monk, who, after he has experienced an object through one of the six doors, has unwise attention, and about the monk who has wise attention. We read that Mahå-Moggallåna said to the monks: Friends, I will teach you the way of lusting and also of not lusting... And how, friends, is one lustful? Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, feels attachment for objects that charm, feels aversion from objects that displease, abides without having established mindfulness of the body, and his thoughts are mean. He realizes not, in its true nature, that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil, unprofitable states that have arisen cease without remainder. This monk, friends, is called ``lustful after objects cognizable by the eye, nose, tongue... objects cognizable by the mind.'' When a monk so abides, friends, if Måra come upon him by way of the eye, Måra gets an opportunity. If Måra come upon him by way of the tongue... by way of the mind, Måra gets access, gets opportunity... So dwelling, friends, objects overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not objects. Sounds overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not sounds. Scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states. This monk, friends, is called ``conquered by objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states, not conqueror of them.'' Evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, leading to rebirth overcome him, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, whose future is rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, one is lustful. And how, friends, is one free from lust? Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, is not attached to objects that charm, nor averse from objects that displease... Tasting a savour with the tongue... with mind cognizing a mind-state, he is not attached to mind-states that charm, nor is he averse from mind-states that displease, but dwells, having established mindfulness of the body and his thought is boundless. So that he realizes in its true nature that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil, unprofitable states that have arisen come to cease without remainder. This monk, friends, is called ``not lustful after objects cognizable by the eye... not lustful after mind-states cognizable by the mind.'' Thus dwelling, friends, if Måra come upon him by way of the eye, of the tongue, of the mind... Måra gets no access, gets no opportunity... Moreover, friends, so dwelling a monk conquers objects, objects do not conquer him. He conquers sounds, scents, savours, tangibles, mind- states. They do not conquer him. Such a monk, friends, is called, ``conqueror of objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind- states.'' He is conqueror, not conquered. He conquers those evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, inciting to lust, leading to rebirth, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, is one free from lust. **** Nina. #63043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 11:48 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 98,99, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 98,99. Absence-condition and Disappearance-condition. Intro: This condition pertains to citta and its accompanying cetasikas that, after they have just fallen away, condition the arising of the following citta and accompanying cetasikas. Citta conditions, after it has fallen away, the arising of the subsequent citta, without any interval; each preceding citta is proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, for the following citta. Absence-condition and disappearance-condition are of the same nature as proximity-condition. They are classified as different conditions to show different aspects. ----------- Text Vis.: 98. (22) Immaterial states that, by their ceasing in contiguity [before], assist by giving opportunity to immaterial states that arise proximately (next) after them are 'absence conditions, according as it is said: 'States of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants that have ceased in contiguity are a condition, as absence condition, for present states of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants' (P.tn.1,7). -------- N: The Tiika explains that there is only a single arising of contact (phassa cetasika) that contacts the object and that there cannot be another contact at the same time. Each citta experiences an object and it is assisted by contact (phassa) and other cetasikas. There cannot be two cittas at the same time. Therefore, the citta that has just fallen away assists the next citta by being absent. By absence-condition is not meant mere absence, it means that the former citta that has just fallen away assists the citta that arises in proximity by its absence and thus gives the next citta the opportunity to arise (pavatti okaasadaanena). The Tiika emphasizes proximity here. Cittas arise in succession. As to the expression, ‘present states of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants”, here the term pa.tupanna is used, meaning present. The Tiika adds the term paccuppanna that also means present. Both words imply having arisen, upanna meaning arisen. The former citta that has fallen away assists the arising of the following citta. ************* Text Vis.: 99. (23) Those same states, because they assist by their disappearance, are a 'disappearance condition', according as it is said: States of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants that have disappeared in contiguity are a condition, as disappearance condition, for present states of consciousness and consciousness- concomitants' (P.tn.1,7). ------- N: As to the expression, ‘those same states’ (te eva), the Tiika explains that as to reality (dhammato) there is no difference between absence-condition and disappearance-condition; the same dhammas are involved in absence-condition and disappearance-condition. The citta and its accompanying cetasikas that have just fallen away are the conditioning dhammas and they condition the arising of the following citta and its accompanying cetasikas which are the conditioned dhammas. The Tiika explains that since this is the case, the citta that is absence-condition assists in giving opportunity (for the arising of the next citta) by its absence, whereas the citta that is disappearance-condition gives, by its nature of disappearance, assistance to the dhammas that cannot occur (yet) when it has not disappeared. The Tiika states that absence is voidness by ceasing in contiguity, while disappearance is having reached the point of ceasing. N: Absence is the falling away just before the next citta arises in contiguity, and disappearance refers to the citta that has passed through the three moments of arising, presence and ceasing. Thus, absence-condition emphasizes that the citta that has just fallen away assists by providing the opportunity for the next citta that arises immediately after it and that could not occur at the same time as the preceding citta. Disappearance-condition emphasizes that the dhammas that were present before assist the succeeding ones after they have reached the point of their ceasing. ****** Conclusion: Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, succeeding one another without interval. The cittas which perform their functions succeed one another in a regular order. When we read about disappearance-condition it helps us to understand that the preceding citta was just before present but has disappeared. Absence-condition and disappearance-condition operate at this very moment. Seeing could not arise if the preceding citta, the eye-door adverting-consciousness would still be present, if it had not disappeared. There cannot be more than one citta at a time that experiences an object. The eye-door adverting-consciousness gives, by its disappearance, an opportunity for the arising of seeing- consciousness at this moment. Absence-condition and disappearance-condition remind us of the ephemeral nature of the cittas of our life that arise and fall away in succession extremely rapidly. The last citta of our life, the dying-consciousness, gives, by its disappearance the opportunity for the arising of the next citta without any interval, the rebirth- consciousness. What happens at the end of life is not different from what occurs at this moment. At each moment there is birth and death of citta. ***** Nina. #63044 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 12:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kasina, village monk 2 matheesha333 Hi Nina, > 1. Pu~n~na is often translated as merit. It is kusala. Think of the > pu~n~na kiriyavatthu, the ten bases of meritorious deeds: included in > daana, siila, bhaavana. > The difference is more in the context where they are used. Kusala is > said of the citta, kusala citta, but unless it is very weak (you > think of giving but do not do it) it is the same as kusala kamma. > Even if it arises for a few moments. > M: Am I to understand that punna is a more conventional way of talking about kusala? I read somewhere that punna leads to favourable rebirth and worldly pleasures and kusala leads to nibbana. Do you think that is correct? >M: 2. What factors help to identify kusala when it arises? >N: Only understanding. Actually, direct awareness and understanding. > ..> It helps to listen to the teachings and commentaries: kusala is pure, > it is without lobha, dosa and moha. It arises with calm and > detachment. There is no disturbance by restlessness as is the case > when akusala citta arises. > This has to be verified in daily life, it is not merely theory. > By listening understanding grows and then we learn that it has a > characteristic, different from akusala. We can become familiar with > its characteristic when it appears. But it is necessary to become > familiar with all the characteristics that appear through the six > doors. That is the development of insight. M: What is the purpose of identifying kusala especially? Should we not be identifying the characteristics of everything which arises? with metta Matheesha #63045 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 matheesha333 Hi Nina > I do not know what to answer, but I feel this is your conviction and > if a person feels in this or that way let him write about it. Not really expecting an answer. :) just commenting. Hope you are well, with metta Matheesha #63046 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 12:42 pm Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa pgradinarov Dear Joop, > It will not surprise me if there are more than two kinds. Sure, but buddhologists seem to be fascinated by the phenomenology of Husserl, especially when talking about YogAcAra. > Oh no, Buddhism is not anthropocentric and we (human being) should > not perceive ourselves as the most important beings in the universe; In Buddhist soteriology, it is the precious human existence that is considered the ultimate springboard to buddhahood. Yet I meant the epistemological anthropocentrism. Six human senses, six corresponding dhatus, and six very human vijnanas. > For the third time I will ask you (no idea why you didn't respond): > do agree with me that the pali-term 'rupa' can best be understood > as '(by someone) experienced material qualities.', and not > as 'matter' or 'form'? Sorry, I kind of overlooked this question. - I agree, as far as matter implies a substance-oriented ontology, while rUpa is just a name for denoting a bunch of physical properties. What I am not sure at all, should we call them raw data. Because there is still such thing as dravya-sat. Kind regards, Plamen #63047 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/3/06 1:25:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Ken O > > > In a message dated 9/3/2006 7:29:38 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Hi TG and Howard > > > > > >TG: I believe I qualified my statement by stating that is was due > >to DO that states are empty of themselves. I'll stand by the > "itself" comment. I don't see a meaningful difference between self > and itself especially when the justification for such language is > already established as being DO based. > > >TG: I did not say and will not say that "empty of itself" means > >non-existence. (I can see how you think so though.) It is really > >an attempt to strongly "de-entify" the mind's outlook. > > k: As far as I know, Buddha say it in the SN in the Book of > Casuations, feeling exist, all the D.O. exists. It also said that it > exist because it is dependent of other conditions to arise. It is > not a coreless and it is not an echo. > > TG: As far as I know the Buddha said feelings arise. If he had said > feelings "exist," that would contradict another Sutta that specifically > dealt with > that topic and rejected views of existence or non-existence. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't checked the exact sutta referred to, but I do know there are places at which the Buddha asserted existence. The thing is: The Buddha used 'existence' in different ways in different contexts with, of course, different meanings, as he did for other terms as well. When he asserts existence I believe he is asserting mere existence - that is, he is denying that the phenomenon is imagined. When he denies existence to something that is not imagined I believe he is denying intrinsic existence or self-existence. --------------------------------------------- > > > We can cognize the quality or > characteristics > > > TG: Yes the mind can. It can cognize what arises. An echo does arise! > > > > > Secondly in Books of Casuations, I have seen the text it is dhamma is > empty of itself. But is said clearly, it is empty of I making. > > > TG: Could you please clarify this. > > > > > > > >TG: Heat arises due to "other" conditioning factors. Heat is not > >an entity or a quality "of itself." The state of heat arises and > alters, but it is an "echo" of "other echos/conditions." Heat does > not contain "its own" quality. Heat dissipates and alters because > it cannot "live with itself." So too all conditions. None of > these terms can satisfactorily describe the indescribable -- > emptiness. They are just tools to prompt insight so that the mind > >can become aloof and detached from conditions. > > > >We might say that an echo has "its own" qualities...but that > >approach just instills attachment to conditions IMO. If I said an > echo was "empty of itself" that might be easier to swallow? But > that statement equally applies to all conditions. > > k: Yes heat arise due ot other conditions but heat exist because o > dependent conditions. And secondly it is not about being easily to > sallow. I always believe each individual is entitled to their own > views and I respected yours. I just like to say that if heat is an > echo, then it is an illusion. > TG: An echo is not an illusion. An echo arises as much as any other > condition. Traditionally an echo is sound. > > > If heat is an illusion, would you say > something is hot when there is a heat. When heat cease, it means it > cease. it changes in hot and cold or sometimes hot sometimes not and > then hot again, but it does not change the fact that when there is > heat, it is hot. > TG: This doesn't apply as I don't hold the view that heat is an illusion. > > > The condition that helps it to arise does not > delete the fact that this heat exist just like echo cannot happen if > there is no sound making it or mirage could not have happen with the > heat waves. And furthermore heat waves, sound have their own > unique characteristics which in turn also conditioned by the sun as > well as the a man who shouts in the valley. > > > TG: The condition that generates heat determines the nature of heat. It > is > impermanent and selfless. > > I agree with the gist of the above. Where you and I differ is in how much > credence we give the states that do arise. The minds tendency is to think > things exist. That they have substance. It is important to overcome that > type > of thinking because that type of thinking is "grasping oriented." States > arise, change, and cease. Nothing more, nothing less. To think they exist > or > do not exist are two extremes that are attachment oriented and "view based" > > IMO. > > Yes they arise, yes we can pay attention to them....to their alterations. > That's as far as it need go. Let's not create a view of them being > "ultimately real" substance that make up experience. Mere conditions make > up > experience. Conditions are empty and void according to the Buddha. They > arise and > cease and the system of samsara is mere affliction. This stuff (dhammas) > should be seen as a murderer in the process of killing you. > > The mind should learn to "see through dhammas" and realize they are not > what > they appear to be. Don't go "half way" and just realize that the glass is > not a glass, but hardness. Go all the way and realize that hardness is > also > not what it appears to be. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Very well put! All dhammas are empty of self not only in the sense that they are impersonal and not, individually or together, the "soul of a person", but also in the sense of being utterly void and without core - of being empty of themselves, their very existence being a borrowed one. In the Phena Sutta the Buddha said "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately." In the Uraga Sutta, he said "He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin." And in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and repeated in the Channa Sutta (SN 22.90), the Buddha taught that the existence of all dhammas is a middle-way mode of existence that is neither a nihilistic non-existence nor a substantialist self-existence. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > TG > ========================= With metta, Howard #63048 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/3/06 1:43:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard and Ken O > > It will come as no shock that I quite agree with this. Probably a clearer > expression than what I have stated. The statement Howard claims that I > assert is EXACTLY what I assert. ----------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ----------------------------------------- > > I would suggest, and Howard may agree, that his use of the word "exist" > does > not mean it has its own quality, but merely that it is a condition that has > > arisen in dependence. Therefore it should not be regarded as "its own > thing," but rather, as "empty of its own thing." ------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. ------------------------------------------ > > TG > ==================== With metta, Howard #63049 From: Daniel Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 3:08 pm Subject: Re: Repression sbhtkk Hi all, Thank you for the answers. I was especially moved by the fact that Buddha did not suggest only mental meditations, but also suggested specific physical settings which would be good for people with specific conditions... Daniel #63050 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 3:27 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 68. philofillet Hello Nina Thanks as always for posting these great passages. > And how, friends, is one free from lust? > Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, is not > attached to objects that charm, nor averse from objects that > displease... I think it is helpful to remember how quickly lobha arises. I know when I first read these kind of suttas, I understood lust in the conventional sense, and at times would ask myself whether I was without lust or not in the presence of objects, and probably took some pleasure out of thinking that at times I was without lust, was making progress etc. A good example of how suttas can mislead beginnners plunging into them in this age. In fact, there is lobha almost inevitably as soon as the object arises, isn't there? We should be honest with ourselves when considering how much lobha has been accumulated compared to how much panna, wise attention and other kusala factors have been accumulated. Not to say that wise attention cannot arise of course - the Buddha said it could - but we really have to be careful about reading these suttas and taking too much out of them based in conventional understanding. The Buddha's teaching goes against the way of this world - we should never forget that. (But we will because there are conditions that push us toward wanting wanting *wanting* too much out of Dhamma for the emotional comfort/sense of spiritual well-being that it provides.) Phil #63051 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 3:41 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 68. philofillet Hi again >(But we will > because there are conditions that push us toward wanting wanting > *wanting* too much out of Dhamma for the emotional comfort/sense of > spiritual well-being that it provides.) > I just thought I would add "but that's ok because it can be understood - fretting about it doesn't help - but if there's fretting about it that can be understood as well." Understanding - the only way out and it has to start right from the beginning. Phil #63052 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/3/2006 2:20:59 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: All dhammas are empty of self not only in the sense that they are impersonal and not, individually or together, the "soul of a person", but also in the sense of being utterly void and without core - of being empty of themselves, their very existence being a borrowed one. Hi Howard The term "borrowed" is excellent!!! If the mind thinks of states (dhammas) as "borrowed arisings/happenings," I think the mind will be inclined not to view them as substantive. Unfortunately the word "exist" brings with it an overly strong substantive outlook that includes a self outlook. I may have to borrow your term. ;-) TG #63053 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa nidive Hi Howard, > And in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and repeated in the Channa Sutta > (SN 22.90), the Buddha taught that the existence of all dhammas is > a middle-way mode of existence that is neither a nihilistic non- > existence nor a substantialist self-existence. The point is: Ven. Channa is not perplexed about whether "things exist in and of themselves" or that "nothing exists at all". ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.090.than.html Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not- self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released1 in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- He obviously acknowledged that the five aggregates are inconstant and not-self, being dependent co-arisen. He is not perplexed about whether "things exist in and of themselves" or that "nothing exists at all". He is perplexed about "What then is my self?". And it is in response to this perplexity about the SELF that Ven. Ananda uttered the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. I don't think you would doubt the wisdom of Ven. Ananda and the penetration of the Dhamma by Ven. Channa, but you reserve the right to interpret the Buddha's Dhamma to suit your poetic highs. Regards, Swee Boon #63054 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... Hi Swee Boon, Howard In a message dated 9/3/2006 8:42:05 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not- self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released1 in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- He obviously acknowledged that the five aggregates are inconstant and not-self, being dependent co-arisen. He is not perplexed about whether "things exist in and of themselves" or that "nothing exists at all". He is perplexed about "What then is my self?". TG: These are related issues, they are not independent issues. Hence Ananda taught in some depth about views of existence and non-existence both being false. In fact, Ven. Channa is quite perplexed and his depth of understanding impermanence and no-self is very limited. And it is in response to this perplexity about the SELF that Ven. Ananda uttered the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. TG: Please then explain why Ananda would spend about half the Sutta discussing existence and non-existence? I don't think you would doubt the wisdom of Ven. Ananda and the penetration of the Dhamma by Ven. Channa, but you reserve the right to interpret the Buddha's Dhamma to suit your poetic highs. TG: Why are we to think that Ven Channa here has significant understanding of Dhamma? He is being treated as somewhat of a dolt at this stage in this Sutta. I think the "poetic highs" comment was rude. After all, there is a lot of poetry in the Suttas in more ways than one. Buddhism requires both a strong intellect and a strong creative/artistic sensibility to see beyond mere appearances. Mindfulness, meditation, detachment are such art forms. TG #63055 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 12:31 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Plamen Gradinarov" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > J:> > do agree with me that the pali-term 'rupa' can best be understood > > as '(by someone) experienced material qualities.', and not > > as 'matter' or 'form'? > P: > - I agree, as far as > matter implies a substance-oriented ontology, while rUpa is just a > name for denoting a bunch of physical properties. What I am not sure > at all, should we call them raw data. Because there is still such > thing as dravya-sat. > > Kind regards, > > Plamen > Hallo Plamen I'm afraid you now really lost the connection with (Theravada) Abhidhamma: rupas are one of the paramattha dhammas in it. So there is nothing 'behind' them. Metta Joop #63056 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 1:13 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa pgradinarov Dear Joop, What you say is non sequitur, i.e., your conclusion does not follow from anything previously said. I did clearly say that rUpa is only a common name for the rUpa-skandha, not something behind the individual dharmas summarized under this heading. It is, let me repeat again, "a name for denoting a bunch of physical properties." The same holds true of citta - there is no such thing as citta, separate or above the dharmas summarized under the heading of vijnana-skandha. Citta is only a name for denoting the vijnana-dharmas. In fact all dharmas except rupas are only names for denoting one or another class of psychic/emotional/volitional/cognitive phenomena - that's why they are called nama. Their existence is only nominal. If not, calling them nama would be a wrong speech. Kind regards, Plamen > P: > - I agree, as far as > > matter implies a substance-oriented ontology, while rUpa is just a > > name for denoting a bunch of physical properties. What I am not > sure > > at all, should we call them raw data. Because there is still such > > thing as dravya-sat. > > > > Hallo Plamen > > > I'm afraid you now really lost the connection with (Theravada) > Abhidhamma: rupas are one of the paramattha dhammas in it. So there > is nothing 'behind' them. #63057 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 1:07 am Subject: Infinitely Joyous Consciousness ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How is Release by Mutual Joy Achieved? The Blessed Buddha once said: And how, Bhikkhus, is release of mind by infinite mutual joy (Mudita) achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the ultimate goal of mental release by universally mutual & unselfish joy? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading the frontal quadrant, with a mind imbued with infinite mutual joy, so the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. As above, so below, across, and everywhere, and to all beings so to himself, he dwells pervading the entire universe with a mind saturated with unlimited mutual joy, immense, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without any enmity, without any ill will! Thus prepared and expanded he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with limitless mutual joy. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such mutual joy. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with infinite mutual joy. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with absolute mutual joy. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with noble mutual joy. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with mutual joy. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with endless mutual joy. Based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release. If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in any unrepulsive & tempting, then he can dwell experiencing repulsiveness therein. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in any disgusting & repulsive, then he dwells experiencing pleasing beauty in whatever disgusting! If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive, he dwells experiencing repulsive disgust in it. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive, he experiences only unrepulsive beauty by it! If he wishes: Avoiding both the repulsive and the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity, just aware and clearly comprehending, then he dwells in equanimity, just aware and clearly comprehending! Or else, completely transcending the realm of infinitude of space, only aware that consciousness is infinite, he enters and dwells in the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness.. I tell you Bhikkhus for a quite wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, the mental release by infinite, altruistic & mutual joy has the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as its culmination! Composed for the sole purpose of Gladdening of Good People! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63058 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 2:46 am Subject: Re: Dhamma teacher kelvin_lwin Hi Jon, I thought you would look it up, oops, here's the next section. 55. The Elder Abhaya was then, it seems, a stream-enterer. When the Elder Abhaya had given his teacher a meditation subject, he returned to Anuradhapura. Later, while he was expounding the Dhamma in the Brazen Palace, he heard that the elder had attained nibbana. On hearing this, he said, 'Bring me [my] robe, friends'. Then he put on the robe and said, 'The Arahant path befits our teacher, friends. Our teacher was a true throughbred, he sat down on a mat before his own Dhamma pupil and said "Explain a meditation subject to me". The Arahant path befits our teacher, friends'. - Kel > You I think are saying that when it mentions an enlightened person in that > context it means any enlightened person and not just an enlightened person > who is a teacher of samatha. > > Do the passages you quote in your message refer to this point? If yes, > perhaps you could spell out the connection for me, please. Sorry if I'm > being slow – I'm in holiday mode now ;-)) > > Thanks. > > Jon > > --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > > > My basic point is that you're drawing artificial contexts where > > there is none. > ... > > From same section: > > > > 54: The inhabitants of the vollage had a large pavilion built at > > the door of his dwelling, and they came daily to hear the Dhamma. > > Explaining by day what had been repeated by night, the Elder > > [Dhammarakkhita] eventually completed the instruction. Then he sat > > down on the mat on the ground before the Elder Abhaya and > > said, 'Friend, explain a meditation subject to me'. -- 'What are you > > saying, venerable sir, have I not heard it all from you? What can I > > explain to you that you do not already know"' The senior elder > > said, 'This path is different for one who has actually travelled by > > it'. > > > > Kel: I suppose you'll tell me that Elder Abhaya was a Sotapanna > > with jhanas. > > > > - Kel > #63059 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > >> TG: As far as I know the Buddha said feelings arise. If he had said > feelings "exist," that would contradict another Sutta that specifically dealt with > that topic and rejected views of existence or non-existence. > > ___________ Dear TG Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950 "FEELING that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too say it EXISTS. .""endquote Robert #63060 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 5:56 am Subject: Re: Phenomenology of nama and rupa jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Plamen Gradinarov" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > What you say is non sequitur, i.e., your conclusion does not follow > from anything previously said. Hallo Plamen P: "… I did clearly say that rUpa is only a common name for the rUpa- skandha …" J: I did not notice that in your previous posts. But let's call it a misunderstanding: I talked in my messages to you about the rupas that are one of the four kind of paramattha dhammas (ultimate phenomena) in Theravada Abhidhamma. There are 28 rupas: four 'great' (solidity, cohesion, heat and motion); the others 'direved'. See for example the ebook "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena" by Nina van Gorkom (www.zolag.co.uk/rupas.rtf) about them. What has my special interest is that one easely think that the relation nama - rupa in Abhidhamma is the same as mind - matter (or soul - body) in western thinking à la Descartes. How about this points in Mahayana? Metta Joop #63061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 6:22 am Subject: kasina, village monk 2. nilovg Hi Matheesha, ----------- re: pu~n~na and kusala. -------- M: Am I to understand that punna is a more conventional way of talking about kusala? I read somewhere that punna leads to favourable rebirth and worldly pleasures and kusala leads to nibbana. Do you think that is correct? -------- N: I do not think so. I do not think daana, included in the kiriya pu~n~na vatthus, is a conventional way of speech. But we can speak both in a general, conventional way of pu~n~na and kusala and also in a more precise way. Daana which is one of the pu~n~na kiriyavatthus is, when we are precise, the kusala intention for generosity. Giving is not always dana. One may give, but with deceitful intentions. In the D.O. there is pu~n~naabhisankhaara, formations of merit. These lead to the continuation of the cycle. This is precise, not a conventional way of speech. As to kusala leading to nibbaana, it depends what type. Vipassanaa can be developed to the degree of magga-citta. ------------ >M: 2. What factors help to identify kusala when it arises? >N: Only understanding. ... M: What is the purpose of identifying kusala especially? Should we not be identifying the characteristics of everything which arises? ----- N: That is right, but instead of identifying I would say: understanding the dhammas that appear as conditioned elements, devoid of self. We should not specifically select kusala as object of awareness. Knowing kusala as being different from akusala is very necessary for samatha. Someone may believe that when the feeling is pleasant it is kusala. But attachment can also be accompanied by pleasant feeling. Because of ignorance one may cultivate attachment instead of jhana. That is what you meant by right view as one of the conditions for jhana, I think. Right view as to kusala and akusala. Also, when one has extraordinary experiences, one may take these for jhana if one does not know whether the citta is kusala at that moment or akusala. As you know, this is a very dangerous thing. Apart from samatha, it is important to know what kusala is, even though knowledge cannot be precise when the first stage of insight has not been reached. Knowing about the possibilities for kusala such as the ten bases of merit helps us develop kusala whenever there is an opportunity for it. We may not have an occasion for giving things away, but there can be anumodana daana when we appreciate other people's kusala. As to siila, we think of precepts, but also politeness and respect are siila. We can apply it on internet! BTW, how was your lecture in London for which Howard gave you tips? Were there good questions? Nina. #63062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 68. nilovg Hi Phil, I could add that the message also of this sutta is the development of satipatthaana. People wonder whether the Buddha speaks about the six doors, but here it is very clear that he referred to each dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. That is through right understanding developed in vipassanaa. As in so many suttas we read about being heedless and being mindful. As you also noticed before, this theme comes back all the time in the suttas. Nina. Op 4-sep-2006, om 0:27 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > And how, friends, is one free from lust? > > Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, is not > > attached to objects that charm, nor averse from objects that > > displease... #63063 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Repression nilovg Dear Daniel, One's surroundings, the climate, the food, the people one associates with, all these factors can influence the arising of kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but one's accumulated inclinations are a strong condition. When thinking of a place, it is not only the place where one lives that is important. The Four Wheels sutta (D. III, 277) also mentions right association (with a good friend), right determination (or aspiration), merit in the past. If there are no other favorable conditions for kusala present, no place in the world will help you. Nina. Op 4-sep-2006, om 0:08 heeft Daniel het volgende geschreven: > I was especially moved by the fact that Buddha did > not suggest only mental meditations, but also suggested specific > physical > settings which would be good for people with specific conditions... #63064 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 9/3/06 9:57:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > I may have to borrow your term. ;-) > > ======================== LOL! Willingly loaned, interest-free! ;-) With metta, Howard #63065 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/3/06 10:42:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >And in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and repeated in the Channa Sutta > >(SN 22.90), the Buddha taught that the existence of all dhammas is > >a middle-way mode of existence that is neither a nihilistic non- > >existence nor a substantialist self-existence. > > The point is: Ven. Channa is not perplexed about whether "things exist > in and of themselves" or that "nothing exists at all". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.090.than.html > > Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is > inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, > fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not- > self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are > not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; > all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow > confident, steadfast, &released1 in the resolution of all > fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of > craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & > clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, > is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the > Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the > Dhamma?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > He obviously acknowledged that the five aggregates are inconstant and > not-self, being dependent co-arisen. He is not perplexed about whether > "things exist in and of themselves" or that "nothing exists at all". > > He is perplexed about "What then is my self?". > > And it is in response to this perplexity about the SELF that Ven. > Ananda uttered the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. > > I don't think you would doubt the wisdom of Ven. Ananda and the > penetration of the Dhamma by Ven. Channa, but you reserve the right to > interpret the Buddha's Dhamma to suit your poetic highs. > > Regards, > Swee Boon =========================== First of all, I said that the teaching of the Kaccayangotta Sutta was repeated in that sutta, but I did not discuss why. Secondly, as to your closing clause, we all interpret the Dhamma as we understand it, but I see your formulation as intentionally insulting. Are you in a sour mood? As to the points you raise above, I'll address them now: 1) Channa has only a formal belief in all conditioned dhammas being anicca and anatta. Most likely it is no more than an intellectual assent, because he still believes that there is a self (i.e., core essence) to be found in "the person", saying that, though he knows that this should not occur to one who "sees the Dhamma", he still asks 'But who, then, is my self?' That, indeed, is what Channa is sick with - the belief that somewhere, in some way, there is a personal self. Ananda offers the Kaccayanagotta Sutta as medicine. 2) The fact that the Kaccayanagotta Sutta is given as medicine for the belief that there is a personal self you take to imply that this sutta does not address the insubstantial status of all dhammas. That is a non-sequitur, and it is clearly false. To me it is obvious that the Buddha knew that coming to see the impermanent and dependent nature of all dhammas was the cure for belief in a personal self. The Kaccayanagotta Sutta speaks for itself as to what it teaches: It teaches that the nature of all conditioned dhammas is a dependent one, with their middle-way mode of being neither a nihilistic nonexistence nor a substantial self-existence. By directly seeing the conditioned genesis of all formations, Channa's craving, clinging, and belief in a personal self who craves and clings could be obliterated, and so Ananda gave that appropriate teaching. It doesn't matter that . A teaching that does pertain to that is exactly what Ananda gave to Ven. Channa as medicine for what *was* perplexing to him, and as the medicine for suffering. With metta, Howard #63066 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa nidive Hi Howard, > To me it is obvious that the Buddha knew that coming to see the > impermanent and dependent nature of all dhammas was the cure for > belief in a personal self. Yes, it is obvious to me as well. > The Kaccayanagotta Sutta speaks for itself as to what it teaches: > It teaches that the nature of all conditioned dhammas is a dependent > one, with their middle-way mode of being neither a nihilistic > non-existence nor a substantial self-existence. If "the nature of all conditioned dhammas is a dependent one", then it is moot to talk about whether they "exist in and of themselves" or they "don't exist at all". Both positions are impossible to anyone of sound mind, including Ven Channa. Both positions are superfluous and not the eternalism and annihilationism that the Buddha speaks about. Both you and TG are taking eternalism and annihilationism one step beyond what the Buddha stops at. Regards, Swee Boon #63067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 10:42 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, 69 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 10 The First Citta in Life Time and again there are cittas arising which experience different objects through the senses and through the mind-door. There are seeing or hearing, there are cittas with attachment to what is seen or heard. These cittas arise because of different conditions. Seeing and the citta with attachment to visible object do not arise at the same time, they are different and they perform different functions. We will understand more about cittas if we know in what order they arise and which function they perform. Each citta has its own function (in Påli: kicca). There are fourteen functions of citta in all. The citta arising at the first moment of life must also have a function. What is birth, and what is it actually that is born? We speak about the birth of a child, but in fact, there are only nåma and rúpa which are born. The word ``birth'' is a conventional term. We should consider what birth really is. Nåma and rúpa arise and fall away all the time and thus there is birth and death of nåma and rúpa all the time. In order to understand what causes birth we should know what conditions the nåma and rúpa which arise at the first moment of a new lifespan. What arises first at the beginning of our life, nåma or rúpa? At any moment of our life there have to be both nåma and rúpa. In the planes of existence where there are five khandhas (four nåmakkhandhas and one rúpakkhandha), nåma cannot arise without rúpa; citta cannot arise without the body. What is true for any moment of our life is also true for the first moment of our life. At the first moment of our life nåma and rúpa have to arise at the same time. The citta which arises at that moment is called the rebirth-consciousness or paìisandhi-citta. Since there isn't any citta which arises without conditions, the paìisandhi-citta must also have conditions. The paìisandhi-citta is the first citta of a new life and thus its cause can only be in the past. ****** Nina. #63068 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/4/2006 6:19:03 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear TG Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950 "FEELING that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too say it EXISTS. .""endquote Robert Hi Robert "This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality -- upon the notion of existence and non-existence. But for one who sees the origin of the world AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM, there is no notion of non-existence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world." and further... "All exists: Kaccana, is one extreme. All does not exist: Kaccana, is the second extreme." Connected Discourse of Buddha Vol 1, pg 544. TG #63069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 10:51 am Subject: Letters from Nina 50. nilovg Dear friends, Cutting the story with sati. We live most of the time with our thoughts, our dreams, it is conditioned. But now and then there can be a moment of sati in between, and that is the moment there can be some understanding of what is real. Straight after this Khun Sujin speaks about consideration for others. Is there a connection between sati and consideration for others? Yes, very much so. When we begin to understand realities we find 'self' less important. We accept situations as they are and this gives a sort of happiness which is not selfish, although there may be clinging again to this kind of happiness, but even that can be realized also. I found, during my journey with the princess and prince, that all this is true. It was my duty to consider their happiness in the first place, so I did not mind so much my own tiredness. I do not like hanging around souvenir shops, but this time I was pleased when the princess enjoyed it, even after a long day on the lake with boating and swimming. After that, she was shopping for more than two hours. During the long drives in the car I thought of our long trips in the bus together with Khun Sujin in India. I was reminded to consider nama and rupa. I noticed how we are attached to every inch of our body and this reminded me not to neglect the hardness or softness which appeared, in order to know them as only rupas. I was also thinking of the happiness of the others which were in the company of the Princess and Prince, and those people did not always harmonize together, as may happen in a company where there are different people together on a journey. There were many opportunities to be a little more considerate for others. Sometimes I was very tired and not so happy, but then I remembered that it is not considerate to show an ugly face to others, and that helps. I sometimes have cocktail parties which are dull, but when there are a few moments of sati it is refreshing, unpleasant situations can become pleasant. Because then it does not matter so much any more where one is or with whom one is. Sati conditions patience with the different situations in daily life. This letter is becoming long, but I want to illustrate the benefit of sati for daily life; its aim is not quietness in a meditation room. How otherwise could we lead our daily life in a more wholesome way? ****** Nina. #63070 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/4/2006 6:19:03 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear TG Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950 "FEELING that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too say it EXISTS. .""endquote Robert Hi Again Robert I would like to point out that the Buddha also taught that there was a "self" to individuals who would become even more confused if they were told otherwise. For minds that don't grasp emptiness, the idea of existence or the idea of self is better than the nihilistic alternatives. TG #63071 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Re: Reunion Consciousness pgradinarov Dear Nina, Could it be that this pratisandhi-citta is somehow present at every next moment of life as, so to say, the envoy of past, thus (somehow) guaranteeing the unity of experience? Kind regards, Plamen > What is true for any moment of our life is also > true for the first moment of our life. At the first moment of our > life nåma and rúpa have to arise at the same time. The citta which > arises at that moment is called the rebirth-consciousness or > paìisandhi-citta. #63072 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Robert) - In a message dated 9/4/06 1:56:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > In a message dated 9/4/2006 6:19:03 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Dear TG > Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950 > "FEELING that is impermanent, suffering and subject to > change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too > say it EXISTS. .""endquote > Robert > > > > Hi Robert > > "This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality -- upon the > notion of existence and non-existence. But for one who sees the origin of > the > world AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM, there is no notion of > non-existence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation > of the world > AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM, there is no notion of existence in > regard > to the world." > > and further... > > "All exists: Kaccana, is one extreme. All does not exist: Kaccana, is the > second extreme." > > Connected Discourse of Buddha Vol 1, pg 544. > > TG > > ========================= Yet I believe there is no contradiction here. In the material quoted by Robert I believe that the "existence" affirmed is a conventional existence, a "mere existence" that amounts to not being nothing at all, and the existence denied in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta is an ultimate existence as an *entity, a thing-in-itself. The operation of feeling, for example, certainly is not nothing at all. Likewise hardness, sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and so on. When any one of them arises, it is a valid convention to speak of it as existing, for it is not imagined. But it IS imagined as a thing-in-itself. With metta, Howard * The following entry is from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary: Main Entry: en·ti·ty Function: noun Pronunciation: 'en-t&-te, 'e-n&- Inflected Form(s): plural -ties Etymology: Medieval Latin entitas, from Latin ent-, ens existing thing, from coined present participle of esse to be -- more at IS 1 a : BEING , EXISTENCE ; especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence b : the existence of a thing as contrasted with its attributes 2 : something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality #63073 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/4/2006 6:19:03 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Dear TG > Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950 > "FEELING that is impermanent, suffering and subject to > change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too > say it EXISTS. .""endquote > Robert > > > > Hi Robert > > "This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality -- upon the > notion of existence and non-existence. But for one who sees the origin of the > world AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM, there is no notion of > non-existence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world > AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM, there is no notion of existence in regard > to the world." > > and further... > > "All exists: Kaccana, is one extreme. All does not exist: Kaccana, is the > second extreme." > > Connected Discourse of Buddha Vol 1, pg 544. > > _______ Dear TG I think I see the confusion. The Pali of the text you quote is hard to translate. Bhikku Bodhi explains http://www.abhidhamma.org/KaccanagottaSutta.htm Dvayanissito khvayam Kaccana loko yebhuyyena atthitan c' eva natthitan ca. Spk: "For the most part" (yebhuyyena) means: for the great multitude, with the exception of the noble individuals (ariyapuggala). The notion of existence (atthita) is eternalism (sassata); the notion of nonexistence (natthita) is annihilationism (uccheda). Spk-pt: The notion of existence is eternalism because it maintains that the entire world (of personal existence) exists forever. The notion of nonexistence is annihilationism because it maintains that the entire world does not exist (forever) but is cut off. In view of these explanations it would be misleading to translate the two terms, atthita and natthita, simply as "existence" and "nonexistence" and then to maintain (as is sometimes done) that the Buddha rejects all ontological notions as inherently invalid. The Buddha's utterances at 22:94, for example, show that he did not hesitate to make pronouncements with a clear ontological import when they were called for. In the present passage atthita and natthita are abstract nouns formed from the verbs atthi and natthi. It is thus the metaphysical assumptions implicit in such abstractions that are at fault, not the ascriptions of existence and nonexistence themselves. I have tried to convey this sense of metaphysical abstraction, conveyed in Pali by the terminal -ta, by rendering the two terms "the notion of existence" and "the notion of nonexistence," respectively. On the two extremes rejected by the Buddha, see 12:48, and for the Buddha's teaching on the origin and passing away of the world, 12:44. Unfortunately, atthita and bhava both had to be rendered by "existence," which obscures the fact that in Pali they are derived from different roots. While atthita is the notion of existence in the abstract, bhava is concrete individual exis in one or another of the three realms. For the sake of marking the difference, bhava might have been rendered by "being" (as was done in MLDB), but this English word, I feel, is too broad (suggestive of "Being," the absolute object of philosophical speculation) and does not sufficiently con the sense of concreteness intrinsic to bhava." endquote Robert #63074 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 12:04 pm Subject: Samprajnata-samadhi pgradinarov Dear Howard, TG, Robert! Depends what is the object of the samprajnata-samadhi (Pali sampannata?). But in most cases it is not the empirical entity as we know it through the senses in our everyday experience. The paramartha- sat might be obscured or otherwise "hidden" for the eye of wisdom, but thanks to vitarka, vicara, etc., it is eventually presented to the visuddhi-citta in its pure transcendental form as such, i.e., as tathata. Kindest regards, Plamen > > AS IT REALLY IS WITH CORRECT WISDOM > Yet I believe there is no contradiction here. In the material quoted > by Robert I believe that the "existence" affirmed is a conventional existence, #63075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa, it is present. nilovg Hi Robert, TG. Howard, perhaps the Pali can help. Atthi, it is, can mean: it is present (but just for a moment, think of atthi-paccaya, [presence-condition, we just had in the Vis.) I also say, it is present. PTS has: it is so. B.B. uses: exists, and this is so loaded. Nina. Op 4-sep-2006, om 20:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950 > > "FEELING that is impermanent, suffering and subject to > > change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too > > say it EXISTS. .""endquote > > Robert #63076 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend icarofranca: The sweet nice talk of the killer: "May he sleep long and well" just before he plants his knife in the sleeper.... Is that RIGHT or WRONG speech ??? In any case: And why so ??? Your well reasoned arguments, which so far have glimmered by their absence is now quite needed. No more lalilah up & down the doorframe here... Come on Again Friend: Is the killers sweet speech RIGHT or WRONG speech ??? And WHY SO !!! No more excuses or escapes !!! Salemaleikum In equanimity! vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <....> #63077 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! icarofranca Hi Ven. Samahita --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The sweet nice talk of the killer: > "May he sleep long and well" > just before he plants his knife > in the sleeper.... > > Is that RIGHT or WRONG speech ??? > In any case: And why so ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------- As would say Ace Hunter: "Deeds, not words!" The enunciation of a word by the mouth is a "Flatus Vocis", as the medieval philospher Abelard usually said: an ACTION, that can be only judged by its own parameters. The killer´s melifluous, oiled, sweet words - if they don´t reach the victim´s ear apparatus, they cannot be called a wrong speech...au contraire! such words can be vocalized with correction, with a right punctured grammatical ensemble, with beauty - spelling is not defucnt at all! - so, at a conclusion, I can say that the wonderful Killer´s words are a form of "Right Words" type! But, if he uses harsh speech as " Fool!!!Idiot!!! Bakayaro!!! Cretin!!!Piece of ass!!! Maledetto!!!" and others that modesty obliges me to avoid in a fair Yahoo Group, so the killer will fall on "WRONG WORDS" type and, if he does his evil act, he will fall too at the "WRONG ACT" clausule of buddhistic precepts. That´s a sure way to Niraya, I can guarantee you!!! This arguments resume my case against Ven. Samahita propositions, fellows Dhamma students! If any one here can clarify more or bring out a good correction, be free to do it! Mettaya and Ilhamdu Lillah! Ícaro #63078 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 3:34 pm Subject: Re: kasina, village monk 2. matheesha333 Hi Nina > ----------- > re: pu~n~na and kusala. > -------- > M: Am I to understand that punna is a more conventional way of > talking about kusala? > I read somewhere that punna leads to favourable rebirth and worldly > pleasures and kusala leads to nibbana. Do you think that is correct? > -------- > N: I do not think so. I do not think daana, included in the kiriya > pu~n~na vatthus, is a conventional way of speech. But we can speak > both in a general, conventional way of pu~n~na and kusala and also in > a more precise way. > Daana which is one of the pu~n~na kiriyavatthus is, when we are > precise, the kusala intention for generosity. Giving is not always > dana. One may give, but with deceitful intentions. > > In the D.O. there is pu~n~naabhisankhaara, formations of merit. These > lead to the continuation of the cycle. This is precise, not a > conventional way of speech. > > As to kusala leading to nibbaana, it depends what type. Vipassanaa > can be developed to the degree of magga-citta. M: Mmm.. interesting points Nina. So there seems to be very little difference between punna and kusala, or am I missing something here :)? > ------------ > >M: 2. What factors help to identify kusala when it arises? > >N: Only understanding. ... > > M: What is the purpose of identifying kusala especially? Should we > not be identifying the characteristics of everything which arises? > ----- > N: That is right, but instead of identifying I would say: > understanding the dhammas that appear as conditioned elements, devoid > of self. We should not specifically select kusala as object of > awareness. > > Knowing kusala as being different from akusala is very necessary for > samatha. Someone may believe that when the feeling is pleasant it is > kusala. But attachment can also be accompanied by pleasant feeling. > Because of ignorance one may cultivate attachment instead of jhana. > That is what you meant by right view as one of the conditions for > jhana, I think. Right view as to kusala and akusala. > Also, when one has extraordinary experiences, one may take these for > jhana if one does not know whether the citta is kusala at that moment > or akusala. As you know, this is a very dangerous thing. M: Yes, so knowing these things we should proceed to develop jhana. I wouldn't call it a very dangerous thing Nina. I feel it is more dangerous when looking at the bigger picture to not develop it. Everybody has to start somewhere. There are pitfalls. Everyone starts with defilements. So people are bound to make a few mistakes. It is not that the buddha did not know this. Even when the buddha was there, monks would come and tell him that they were enlightened, when they were not. A mistaken jhana? Must happen everyday! If we had this attitude towards life we wouldnt ever leave our living rooms. It is just that as long as one stays with the process, understanding grows more and more. Akusala will fall away bit by bit. False jhana will drop away. Real jhana will become possible. It is a gradual process. > > Apart from samatha, it is important to know what kusala is, even > though knowledge cannot be precise when the first stage of insight > has not been reached. M: Thats interesting. The first stage of insight - naamaruupa pariccheda? > Knowing about the possibilities for kusala such as the ten bases of > merit helps us develop kusala whenever there is an opportunity for > it. We may not have an occasion for giving things away, but there can > be anumodana daana when we appreciate other people's kusala. > As to siila, we think of precepts, but also politeness and respect > are siila. We can apply it on internet! > M: Indeed. It is sometimes in short supply on and off line! But I find im developing more and more equanimity the more i am exposed to it. > BTW, how was your lecture in London for which Howard gave you tips? > Were there good questions? It's coming up in a few weeks time Nina. These British are mad! Schedule everything 6 months in advance! with metta Matheesha #63079 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 3:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Nina, > > --------- > > N: ... By conditions, we do not have to try to > > > develop calm separately. I mean, this is not a necessary condiiton > > > for insight. But it depends on a person's inclinations whether he > > is > > > inclined to develop samatha or not. > > -------- > > M: Why do you suppose that the buddha said that he would teach > > samatha to a person who has gained insight? > -------- > N: We have to look at the context. For some it may be the right > thing, but, certainly not separated from insight. That makes it all > different from before the Buddha's time. It has to be different! "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html M: I think from the above sutta it is clear that 1)both samatha and vipassana needs to develop. 2)They can be developed seperately. 3)If developed a little, they need to be developed more ie-there is no right time to start developing samatha or vipassana. Both need to be developed from the start to the finish. with metta Matheesha #63080 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/4/2006 12:42:22 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Yet I believe there is no contradiction here. In the material quoted by Robert I believe that the "existence" affirmed is a conventional existence, a "mere existence" that amounts to not being nothing at all, and the existence denied in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta is an ultimate existence as an *entity, a thing-in-itself. The operation of feeling, for example, certainly is not nothing at all. Likewise hardness, sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and so on. When any one of them arises, it is a valid convention to speak of it as existing, for it is not imagined. But it IS imagined as a thing-in-itself. With metta, Howard Hi Howard Right. And when the Buddha says the "the wise in the world," I think he is not talking about Arahants or Buddhas. He is talking about reasonably smart people who are not stupid enough to think nothing exists. I don't think his threshold of "wise" in this case is all that high. This is my interpretation at any rate. But as to what you said above, I think that universally applies. If the audience and subject is understood, there is no contradiction. Once a state is conceptualized as a thing that exists, then the error of thinking it is a self existent thing arises even if unwittingly. TG #63081 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 12:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 9/4/06 7:10:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Once a state is conceptualized as a thing that exists, then the error of > thinking it is a self existent thing arises even if unwittingly. > ====================== For worldlings and even lesser ariyans that is exactly so. When we speak of "an existing thing", we are adopting the convention of its being a thing-in-itself. When that is known as *merely* a convention and way of speaking - as would be fully the case for arahants - there is no problem, but for worldlings, as you say, automatically the error of reification arises. With metta, Howard #63082 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, Icaro & All, --- icarofranca wrote: > This arguments resume my case against Ven. Samahita > propositions, fellows Dhamma students! If any one here can clarify > more or bring out a good correction, be free to do it! .... S: I'm enjoying your spirited discussion:-)Only right understanding can know at any time whether the speech is kusala or not. For more quotes and detail, you may also like to see the posts saved under 'Speech - Right (& Wrong)' in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of the homepage for DSG. [Plamen, you may also like to take a look at posts saved under 'Sabhava' in the same place. Also, for others following the anapanasati and kasina threads, see 'Anapanasati', 'Kasina', 'Samatha development', 'Jhana', 'Jhana & Nibbana', 'Concentration' and other related topics if interested....;-)) Just back from a delightful dhamma breakfast by the Noosa river with Ken H and Andrew T.... perhaps we'll all add some comments later. Ken seems well on his way to recovery and now his appetite is back, perhaps we'll see some of his wit and probing comments here again soon. Face-to-face, no one could be kinder and more considerate than he is when we visit Noosa. Tomorrow, Jon & I fly back to Bangkok where we'll be having a couple of days at Kaeng Krajan (the quiet, country spot Azita recently mentioned) with K.Sujin and various other friends. I think we're ready for a break from the surf and surf theories inc. Ken H's Zen-like ones:-/ Thinking of which and relating it back to the main topic of this post - I appreciate it when an instructor or fellow Surfie yells at me to 'Stand Up!', 'Look Out!' or 'Take this Wave'......If they speak softly to me, I don't react and believe they are instructing me with good-will when they yell:-). Off for our last surf now.... Metta, Sarah ======= #63083 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa, it is present. TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/4/2006 1:31:18 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Robert, TG. Howard, perhaps the Pali can help. Atthi, it is, can mean: it is present (but just for a moment, think of atthi-paccaya, [presence-condition, we just had in the Vis.) I also say, it is present. PTS has: it is so. B.B. uses: exists, and this is so loaded. Nina. Hi Nina Thanks a lot for this. To say "it is present" is much better than "exist" IMO. "It is So" or "it is happening" seem to also work although "so" seems a bit vague. TG #63084 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Sep 4, 2006 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Ícarofranca: Just to be fully sure here: Do you really indeed maintain that: The killers nice and sweet talk: 'May she sleep long & well' just before she kills the sleeper with a knife indeed is RIGHT SPEECH a factor of the Noble Path? Please just answer the question: 1: YES or 2: NO You may - off course! - add your arguments... Regarding action in general: There is Mental Action. There is Verbal Action. There is Bodily Action. So SPEECH alone is also (kammic) Action in & by itself! Yet these actions are all coupled & not separable: First one intends one behaviour. This is Mental Action. Then one thinks and say this. This is Verbal Action. Finally one acts out this plan. This Bodily Action. Speech can therefore not be evaluated independent of its concurrent a priori mentality and a posteriori behaviour as you seem to suggest... Behind whatever kind of action the determinant factor of whether this can be evaluated as: Advantageous (kusala) or Detrimental (akusala) is the INTENTION, whether this is based on or mixed with Ignorance, Hate and/or Greed. I have explained this before so far twice.. The killers speech, despite being nice and sweet, is based on hate (greed and ignorance) and a part of an evil plan to kill another unaware being & is thus ultra-clearly WRONG SPEECH ... !!! Never ever a factor of the path ... !!! If so then killers would be Noble ... How truly warped & absurd IMHO! vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <....> #63085 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 1:45 am Subject: eCard from Noosa jonoabb Hi All Sarah and I were treated to a very enjoyable breakfast this morning by KenH and Andrew T, at a restaurant on the bank of the Noosa river. There was the usual range of dhamma topics discussed, interspersed with talk about surfing (with KenH) and the pitfalls of literary authorship (with Andrew). I have uploaded a pic of the occasion, and a couple of others from our visit here, to the 'Meetings' album in the Photos section. Tomorrow morning we leave for Brisbane airport for a flight to Bangkok in the afternoon. Jon #63086 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: ... > > OK, I am clear that in your view jhana is involved. I am not clear > what > > other mind-states (or mental activities?) you have in mind, > specifically > > when you refer to "a generally concentrated mind - a mind that has > been > > trained to typically pay sharp attention at most times" and also "a > > process of conditioning the mind, making it a more fit tool for > > investigation of dhammas". If you'd care to elaborate on this, I'd be > > interested to discuss further. Are you referring to samatha or to > some > > other form of kusala (I'm still not clear on this point)? > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The word 'accumulation' occurs to me here, Jon. I'm speaking of a > mind > that is inclined to be clear, calm, and undistracted as its most typical > state. > ------------------------------------------ An accumulation of what particular mind-state? The description you give sounds like samatha of some kind (do you see it as being anything other than samatha?). So getting back to the original point under discussion, it seems that you see samatha (including jhana) as being the samadhi that conditions the arising of insight. In a recent post to Mateesha I summarised the contents of a sutta from AN that sets out the 4 kinds of samadhi development. These include both the samadhi of samatha and the samadhi of vipassana. So I would say that the samadhi of vipassana refers to something other than samatha. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/62117 > > The passage I quoted from Ch III seems to me to be making a > distinction > > between the samadhi that is associated with the development of samatha > and > > the samadhi that is associated with the development of insight. It > says > > in effect that Part III deals with the former, while the latter is > dealt > > with in Part IV and further that the concentration that accompanies > > insight is developed along with the development of insight. > > > > What do you understand by the passage? > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know. But I think of the sutta AN 4.170, the Yuganaddha > Sutta > that discusses several forms of concentration, one of which is > "in-tandem". > The part of the sutta that refers to that is "Then there is the case > where a > monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops > tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that > path, develops > it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — > his > fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." > ------------------------------------------- Thanks for mentioning the sutta AN 4.170 (called by some translators the Yuganaddha Sutta). This sutta sets out the ways by which insight can be attained when reckoned according to the development of tranquillity (samatha) (note: samatha, not samadhi). Those ways include not only the way described as 'in tandem' (samatha and vipassana),but also the way where enlightenment is attained before jhana has been attained. As regards the passage you have quoted, I do not see any particular significance to our discussion about the samadhi of insight. The passage simply describes how the development of insight that leads to enlightenment may be accompanied by the development of samatha (just as, in the scenario described in my previous paragraph, it may not). > > LOL! But what about the development of insight at beginning level. > Do > > the texts say that this requires any particular development of > samadhi? > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, c'mon, Jon - try to pay attention without paying attention! > Near > the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta the Buddha writes "There is the > case > where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, > alert, & > mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. > He remains > focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — > ardent, > alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to > the world." > Remaining focused is concentrating, Jon. It is paying attention. There > is no > attending to what arises without attending. > --------------------------------------------------- You say that the passage from the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta that mentions remaining focussed on the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness is talking about paying deliberate attention to, in other words concentrating on, those objects. I think you are placing a lot of weight on the expression 'remaining focussed' used in particular translation from which you are quoting. The original Pali is 'anupassana' which Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as 'contemplates'. 'Contemplates' does not carry the same connotation of 'deliberate attention to or concentration on'. Contemplation can occur at many levels, including the conscious (deliberate),but it can also occur a more subtle levels, and can be involuntary. We can get an idea of what is meant by 'anupassana' from the sutta itself, because the rest of the sutta is devoted to answering the question of *how* a person remains focussed on/contemplates the 4 foundations of Mindfulness. From this I think it is clear that something other than the deliberate paying of attention is meant. It refers to a level of understanding, I believe. For example, in the section on the body it says: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating the body in the body? ... "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ...; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ...; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, ...; in defecating and in urinating, ...; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally... and clings to naught in the world. Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." Jon #63087 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa pgradinarov Dear Ken, I understand that quoting from Nagarjuna is not a proof here, at DSG, but still: 'Yah pratityasamutpada tat sunyata' (MMK 24:18) And the intermediate link, the ground (hetu) for the above equation is the lack of own-being, nihsvabhavata. The whole syllogism has the following form: All nihsvabhava (lacking own-being) is sunya (empty). Dependently originated is lacking svabhava. Therefore, whatever is dependently originated is empty. > Empty of itself, can mean different things. empty of itself is not > link to dependently structured. Depend structure as the name imply, > a dhamma is dependently on other conditions to arise, it is does not > mean dhamma is empty of itself. #63088 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Noosa sarahprocter... Dear All, Let me just briefly list some of the topics discussed at breakfast which we could only arrange at the last minute thanks to a partial recovery of Ken H's health.... (I was the only one who scribbled any notes, so I hope this may jog others' memories): part 1 in the cafe ===================== - More on Andrew's Qu on panca-dvara vajjana citta (sense-door adverting consciousness)and why it's not vipaka citta. Reasons behind the question and whether any views were involved in this as in questions about prompted cittas. The processes of cittas and niyama or the following of cittas by anantara paccaya (conditioned to arise in succession).... - Offerings as in MN 142 (??). Everything else being equal, what makes the difference in terms of the value of the offering being greater to a 'bad' human than an animal, a 'good' human rather than a 'bad' one and so on up the hierarchy. In conclusion, just give or show kindness when you have the chance rather than putting it off or thinking about what will be the 'greatest good' or bring the best results. Otherwise, such thinking is taking us away from the present moment without any awareness of what is conditioned already. - The value of sympathetic joy, appreciation of others' kindness and so on. The tenacity of latent tendencies which can make it difficult for people to show/develop such qualities even whilst understanding the value. - Christian science and error theory as related to Ken H's 'falling off the surfboard' theory (in brief - just don't do it!!)and approaches to sickness vs the understanding of such from the Dhamma. Being sick in India and reminders to let go of the past and clinging to self. Being sick as just passing dhammas, but this doesn't mean not treating the illness. Approaches for overcoming serious illnesses such as meditation and visualization, mind over body vs the various conditions for rupas to arise including kamma too. (The 4 causes of rupas arising are cittas, kamma, nutrition and temperature). [Lots so far in all these topics for Andrew in particular to elaborate on when/if he has time:-)] - The creative, artistic approach to Buddhism, 'Buddhism beyond Belief' by S.Batchelor and referred to by Joop. The book Andrew might have written... - A Catholic background (as well as a Christian scientific one)appreciating that people may look to suttas with an approach of accepting with reverence rather than questioning and understanding. I thought such an approach is common even for those with a Buddhist background. - More on reverential touches with a strong view attached to their importance. Andrew mentioned a Tibetan temple he visited where newcomers were expected to treat books in a particular way and made to feel unwelcome when they put them on the floor. Jon also had a story of a place in Thailand where even the tape-recorder playing a dhamma tape had to be placed on a special cloth. - The Firewood sutta - I've forgotten the context (Andrew, can you help with the reference??) Oh was it related to the discussion about not being responsible for others' accumulations? When we write here or speak on dhamma, we don't wish to antagonise others or deliberately cause upsets or strange ideas to be given as a result, but we're not responsible for others' accumulations and reactions. We just do our best. The idea that we're responsible may be similar to the wrong idea of prompted cittas being caused by some self-controlled activity. - Approaches to discussiong dhamma and the benefit of letting others air their views and questioning, helping people (inc. ourselves) to consider further, rather than just telling them our understanding of the teachings. - Writing books on Dhamma, should people derive any income? What about royalities? What about when writing is one's livelihood? IOW, should all dhamma sharing be free dhamma-dana? Why the tradition is like this. - Best ways of listening to the edited discussions with K.Sujin -- (Andrew, invest in an MP3 player or i-pod when you can. Listening for any time from the computer is not the best way in our view). part 2 on the river-bank ========================== - Sarah's suggestions for various plots and sub-plots for Andrew's next book - a detective-biographical-ornithological block-buster with a strong Dhammic theme. (Ken H isn't impressed....;-)) - B.Bodhi's writings. Old discussions we had with him about 'no control', 'no absolute control vs some control' and so on. Also, bringing traditions together, being open-minded? Combining Theravada and Mahayana temples... - Mis-guided ideas about arahats being selfish and so on.... - Meditation and Pali terms. 'Give it up!' comments. English translations of Pali and terms such as 'focus' and 'concentrate'. Even the pali dictionaries are riddled with mis-guided comments. The only real guide is right understanding of dhammas:-)Also the meaning of jhana as 'burning up' - burning up in samatha and vipassana development. Jhayati to develop samatha and vipassana. - Daily life samatha objects such as death - naturally by conditions, not as a 'doing' something. If we think we should have particular contemplations, read or consider a particular text or sit in a particular way to develop samatha now, we go wrong again, forgetting dhammas are anatta. - Respect to the Buddha, K.Sujin's comments on recitations, memorizations and so on. It always comes back to the present moment. ================================================= Thanks Andrew and Ken H. part3 ===== Also a few from the congee lessons for the sick and short walk with Ken H yesterday (or the day before?)... - Less spice when we no longer look at life through a political lens - Alcohol and reasons for giving up. Addiction when just a little taken as a daily habit. At a certain time of day, the craving is there. KS's comments on this. - Congee in the Buddha's time - which rice? Rules for the monks about when the liquid can be taken. - Ken H's consderation, not wishing to come round while he's infectious ..... On the walk amongst the surf theories: - should those who've heard a lot of dhamma behave better than others? understanding conditions, kusala and akusala rather than looking for good and bad points in others. The danger of expectations. - The behaviour of others such as the surfers....and of course the thinking of such always comes back to our cittas which think in any particular way. - The silent readers of DSG....even Ken H was too shy to write for quite a while:-). So, hope to hear from other budding Ken Hs. (no notes, so I forget what else came up....) ============= If anyone has anything to add or comment on, we'd all be glad. Also, if anyone has anything or any current topic they'd like us to have a go at raising, pls let me know in the next day. Metta, Sarah =========== #63089 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nama and rupa, it is present. upasaka_howard Hi, TG and Nina - In a message dated 9/5/06 12:14:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Nina > > Thanks a lot for this. To say "it is present" is much better than "exist" > IMO. "It is So" or "it is happening" seem to also work although "so" seems > a > bit vague. > > TG > ======================= My thanks also, Nina. TG, I join you in very much preferring "it is present" to "it exists"! :-) With metta, Howard #63090 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/5/06 4:58:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > ... > >>OK, I am clear that in your view jhana is involved. I am not clear > >what > >>other mind-states (or mental activities?) you have in mind, > >specifically > >>when you refer to "a generally concentrated mind - a mind that has > >been > >>trained to typically pay sharp attention at most times" and also "a > >>process of conditioning the mind, making it a more fit tool for > >>investigation of dhammas". If you'd care to elaborate on this, I'd be > >>interested to discuss further. Are you referring to samatha or to > >some > >>other form of kusala (I'm still not clear on this point)? > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > The word 'accumulation' occurs to me here, Jon. I'm speaking of a > >mind > >that is inclined to be clear, calm, and undistracted as its most typical > >state. > >------------------------------------------ > > An accumulation of what particular mind-state? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm speaking of a mind that typically tends to be peaceful and undistracted. So, you can choose your favorite Pali words for 'these. ;-)) ------------------------------------------- > > The description you give sounds like samatha of some kind (do you see it > as being anything other than samatha?). -------------------------------------------- Howard: That is certainly a part of it. ------------------------------------------- > > So getting back to the original point under discussion, it seems that you > see samatha (including jhana) as being the samadhi that conditions the > arising of insight. > > In a recent post to Mateesha I summarised the contents of a sutta from AN > that sets out the 4 kinds of samadhi development. These include both the > samadhi of samatha and the samadhi of vipassana. So I would say that the > samadhi of vipassana refers to something other than samatha. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/62117 ------------------------------------------------ Howard: From my perspective, samadhi is, generally, nondistractedness. When it is generated by akusala interest it is not a path factor. When it is a kusala state, it is. As to the two types of samadhi you mention, in my practice, I don't separate samatha bhavana from vipassana bhavana. My practice is an in-tandem one. ------------------------------------------------ > > >>The passage I quoted from Ch III seems to me to be making a > >distinction > >>between the samadhi that is associated with the development of samatha > >and > >>the samadhi that is associated with the development of insight. It > >says > >>in effect that Part III deals with the former, while the latter is > >dealt > >>with in Part IV and further that the concentration that accompanies > >>insight is developed along with the development of insight. > >> > >>What do you understand by the passage? > > > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't know. But I think of the sutta AN 4.170, the Yuganaddha > >Sutta > >that discusses several forms of concentration, one of which is > >"in-tandem". > >The part of the sutta that refers to that is "Then there is the case > >where a > >monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops > >tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that > >path, develops > >it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it &pursuing it > — > >his > >fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." > >------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for mentioning the sutta AN 4.170 (called by some translators the > Yuganaddha Sutta). > > This sutta sets out the ways by which insight can be attained when > reckoned according to the development of tranquillity (samatha) (note: > samatha, not samadhi). Those ways include not only the way described as > 'in tandem' (samatha and vipassana),but also the way where enlightenment > is attained before jhana has been attained. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Calm and concentration are mutually related. And concentration is a very important condition. What is it about concentration that worries you, Jon? You always seem wary with regard to it. ------------------------------------------- > > As regards the passage you have quoted, I do not see any particular > significance to our discussion about the samadhi of insight. The passage > simply describes how the development of insight that leads to > enlightenment may be accompanied by the development of samatha (just as, > in the scenario described in my previous paragraph, it may not). > > >>LOL! But what about the development of insight at beginning level. > >Do > >>the texts say that this requires any particular development of > >samadhi? > > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, c'mon, Jon - try to pay attention without paying attention! > >Near > >the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta the Buddha writes "There is the > >case > >where a monk remains focused on the body in &of itself — > ardent, > >alert, & > >mindful — putting aside greed &distress with reference to > the world. > >He remains > >focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in &of themselves > — > >ardent, > >alert, &mindful — putting aside greed &distress with > reference to > >the world." > >Remaining focused is concentrating, Jon. It is paying attention. There > >is no > >attending to what arises without attending. > >--------------------------------------------------- > > You say that the passage from the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta that > mentions remaining focussed on the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness is talking > about paying deliberate attention to, in other words concentrating on, > those objects. > > I think you are placing a lot of weight on the expression 'remaining > focussed' used in particular translation from which you are quoting. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Not an inordinate weight, Jon. I'm just taking it at face value. -------------------------------------- The> > original Pali is 'anupassana' which Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as > 'contemplates'. 'Contemplates' does not carry the same connotation of > 'deliberate attention to or concentration on'. Contemplation can occur at > many levels, including the conscious (deliberate),but it can also occur a > more subtle levels, and can be involuntary. > > We can get an idea of what is meant by 'anupassana' from the sutta itself, > because the rest of the sutta is devoted to answering the question of > *how* a person remains focussed on/contemplates the 4 foundations of > Mindfulness. From this I think it is clear that something other than the > deliberate paying of attention is meant. It refers to a level of > understanding, I believe. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I agree with that. Nyanatiloka renders 'anupassana' as 'contemplation', but I thought it basically meant "insight" or "insightful investigation'. ------------------------------------------ > > For example, in the section on the body it says: > "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating the body in the > body? > ... > "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, > in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear > comprehension; > in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ...; > in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; > in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ...; > in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, ...; > in defecating and in urinating, ...; > in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in > sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, > is a person practicing clear comprehension. > "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally... and clings > to naught in the world. Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives > contemplating the body in the body." > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard #63091 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 5:07 am Subject: Eye base/Visible object base scottduncan2 Dear All, A little clarification: How do eye-base and visible object-base differ? Or, what is the difference between them? In the Pa.t.thaana, under Prenascence Condition (Purjaatapaccayo'ti) eye-base (cakkhaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa) is differentiated from visible object-base (ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa). The latter seems to refer to the material base, while the former is a broader category? In Guide to Conditional Relations, (Part 1, Chap. 1, Naarada): Regarding "object-prenascence conditioning states:" "There must be objects which have arisen prior to and are still present before the conditioned states arise. They are the present eighteen types of produced matter." Regarding "base-prenascence conditioning states:" "Base-prenascence condition comes from dependence condition and it is exactly the same as base-prenascence dependence condition...it is treated differently to show that the conditioning states of dependence and object conditions dealt with are those which had arisen before the conditioned states." And, regarding "base-prenascence dependence condition:" "The condition where a conditioning state (which must be (i) a material base, (ii) have arisen and be at its static phase before the conditioned states arise and ((iii) be the dependence of mentality) relates by causing mental states, the conditioned states, to arise." Hopefully this isn't too self evident, in which case my apologies. With loving kindness, Scott. #63092 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 5:53 am Subject: Jataka Tales buddhatrue Hi Lodewijk, How are you? I have been considering the Jataka Tales, as you mentioned in your last post to me, and I have a question. In each Jataka Tale the bodhisatta (Buddha-to-be) faces a serious challenge of some kind. It seems as if these challenges were almost designed in order for the bodhisatta to develop the Perfections. My question is if you see these challenges faced by the bodhisatta as good kamma or as bad kamma? I was just wondering about your thoughts on this subject. Metta, James #63093 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi Matheesha, As to the Samadhisutta, I have the Co. in Thai and I would like to study it again at ease. I will give some comments later on. Now as to your points, I can only speak from our own, personal situation (Lodewijk's and mine). We are always so impressed by the sutta on the two old brahmins (Ang. III, 51). We are not hundred and twenty, but we do not have so long to live anymore. They asked advice to the Buddha who said: This is the teaching of the guarding of the six doors through satipatthaana. The Buddha did not teach them jhana. If one develops jhana one also has to emerge from jhana and then insight has to be developed of all nama and rupa appearing through the six doors. This has to be achieved anyway, so why should I develop jhana being disinclined to it? The Buddha did not say that everybody must develop jhana, he knew that people have different inclinations. Imagine, if we would start developing jhana first, we would die before we would develop vipassana. The difference between applied thinking, vitakka, and sustained thinking, vicara, is very subtle and intricate, but they are jhanafactors that have to be directly understood. By this I can see how intricate the development of jhana is. Anyway, there are many posts in the archives. Rob K has arranged posts on this subject in his forum and he also has other discussions on it, outside dsg. I want to quote some selected parts of his forum the next days. You ask in your other post: N: Yes, they are the same as to characteristic but it depends on the context which term is used. ----- N: Apart from samatha, it is important to know what kusala is, even > though knowledge cannot be precise when the first stage of insight > has not been reached. M: Thats interesting. The first stage of insight - naamaruupa pariccheda? ---------- N: Yes. Kh Sujin explained that at that stage one understands what naama really is, not mixed with rupa. One understands what the mind- door is. Kusala and akusala are naama, and at the first stage the understanding of them will be clearer. Nina. Op 5-sep-2006, om 0:43 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > 1)both samatha and vipassana needs to develop. > 2)They can be developed seperately. > 3)If developed a little, they need to be developed more ie-there is > no right time to start developing samatha or vipassana. Both need to > be developed from the start to the finish. #63094 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 8:00 am Subject: eCard from Minneapolis gazita2002 Hello friends, lots of action happening here as we visit relatives in Mpls. However, its quite amazing how 'out of the blue' thoughts of Dhamma arise at the most surprising times. a discussion about what the Buddha taught took place on the back verandah, under a huge maple tree [something I dont see in tropical north Queensland]. My friend was once a monk in a forest temple in north Thailand, so we understood Buddhas teaching a little differently. He said the Buddha taught morality, concentration and wisdom, and my friend specifically mentioned concentration; and I hear/read this aspect a lot. my understanding is that at any moment there is kusala there is concentration and at the moment of satipatthana there is quite 'strong' concentration. Our discussion didnt go much further than this, partly because neither of us wanted to debate the point. However, I realised that this is often a point that is debated amongst 'buddhists'. I did state that I thought the Buddha meant the dhamma was for anyone who could understand what he was teaching, not just for meditating monks in the forest, that many householders were able to attain enlightenment as well. OK, enuff. we are about to go out on more sightseeing, [oh no, not more visible object :-) ]. we,ve been on a boat up and down - a short distance - on the famous Mississippi River; we went to a Renaissance festival where I thought i'd gone thro a time warp; visited the Mall of America, yes folks the biggest shopping mall in all USA - oh enuff - and my daughter and I are enjoying ourselves amongst all this nama and rupa!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #63095 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 9:25 am Subject: The Polarity of This World! nidive Hi All, ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kaccayanagotta Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The polarity of this world, that of existence & non-existence, is best summed up by Ananda Sutta SN 44.10. ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?" When this was said, the Blessed One was silent. "Then is there no self?" A second time, the Blessed One was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" "Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Does the self exists?" or "Does the self not exists?". This is the polarity that besets the world since time immemorial. But in one who is not resolved on "my self", knowing that when stress arises, only stress is arising, and that when stress ceases, only stress is ceasing, such a one is one who has arrived at Right View. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kaccayanagotta Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. ----------------------------------------------------------------- From an ego-centred point of view, "everything exists" if the self exists, and "everything doesn't exist" if the self doesn't exist. Avoiding both extreme views of the self, the Buddha teaches the First and Second Noble Truths via the forward order of Dependent Co-arising, and the Third Noble Truth via the reverse order of Dependent Co- arising. In one who sees the forward order of Dependent Co-arising as it is, he sees only the arising of stress. And in one who sees the reverse order of Dependent Co-arising as it is, he sees only the cessation of stress. In short, dependent existence is stressful. The very ending of this stressful dependent existence is nibbana. This, just this, is the True Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon #63096 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Noosa nilovg Dear Sarah and Jonothan, thank you for your Ecards. I am glad Ken H is well. Lodewijk just reminded me that tomorrow (Sept 6) is Kh. Charupan's cremation. but you won't be there in time, I think. Nina. Op 5-sep-2006, om 10:45 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Tomorrow morning we leave for Brisbane airport for a flight to > Bangkok in > the afternoon. #63097 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:43 am Subject: eye-base, visible object-base. nilovg Dear Scott, A little clarification: How do eye-base and visible object-base differ? Or, what is the difference between them? In the Pa.t.thaana, under Prenascence Condition (Purjaatapaccayo'ti) eye-base (cakkhaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa) is differentiated from visible object-base (ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa). The latter seems to refer to the material base, while the former is a broader category? --------- eye-base is the ruupa that is eyesense, serving as vatthu, physical base or place of origin, for seeing and as doorway for all cittas arising in the eye-door process. Visible object-base is visible object that impinges on the eyesense and then the cittas of the eye-door process can experience it. The word base is sometimes used for vatthu, physical base and sometimes for aayatana which is difficult to translate. Aayatana points to association of different dhasmmas. They 'meet'. ----------- S: In Guide to Conditional Relations, (Part 1, Chap. 1, Naarada): Regarding "object-prenascence conditioning states:" "There must be objects which have arisen prior to and are still present before the conditioned states arise. They are the present eighteen types of produced matter." ------ N: Ruupa is weak at its arising moment and therefore it must arise just before it is experienced (in the case of its being an object) or before it can serve as base (in the case of eye-base, etc.). ---------- S: Regarding "base-prenascence conditioning states:" "Base-prenascence condition comes from dependence condition and it is exactly the same as base-prenascence dependence condition...it is treated differently to show that the conditioning states of dependence and object conditions dealt with are those which had arisen before the conditioned states." And, regarding "base-prenascence dependence condition:" "The condition where a conditioning state (which must be (i) a material base, (ii) have arisen and be at its static phase before the conditioned states arise and ((iii) be the dependence of mentality) relates by causing mental states, the conditioned states, to arise." ----- N: Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of its presence and its cessation moment. The static phase are the moments of its presence. At those moments it can function as physical base or as object. Nina. #63098 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:44 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 70 nilovg Dear friends, One may have doubts about past lives, but how can people be so different if there were no past lives? We can see that people are born with different accumulations. Can we explain the character of a child only by the parents? What we mean by ``character'' is actually nåma. Could parents transfer to another being nåma which falls away as soon as it has arisen? There must be other factors which are the condition for a child's character. Cittas which arise and fall away succeed one another and thus each citta conditions the next one. The last citta of the previous life (dying-consciousness) is succeeded by the first citta of this life. That is why tendencies one had in the past can continue by way of accumulation from one citta to the next one and from past lives to the present life. Since people accumulated different tendencies in past lives they are born with different tendencies and inclinations. We do not only see that people are born with different characters, we also see that they are born in different surroundings; some people are born in pleasant surroundings and some people are born in miserable surroundings. In order to understand this we should not cling to conventional terms such as ``person'' or ``surroundings''. If we think in terms of paramattha dhammas we will see that being in pleasant or miserable surroundings is nothing else but the receiving of pleasant or unpleasant objects through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense. It is kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka. Vipåka (result) does not arise without conditions; it is caused by good or bad deeds, by kamma. Different people perform different kamma and each deed brings its own result. The fact that people are born in different surroundings must have a condition: it is conditioned by kamma performed in a previous life. Kamma causes one to be born. The paìisandhi-citta is the result of kamma; it is vipåka. In this world we see different births of people and of animals. When we compare the life of an animal with the life of a human being, we notice that being born an animal is sorrowful; it is akusala vipåka. Being born a human being is kusala vipåka, even if one is born poor or if one has to experience many unpleasant things during one's life. The paìisandhi-cittas of different people are of many different degrees of kusala vipåka because the kusala kammas which produced them were of different degrees. ***** Nina. #63099 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:44 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 51 nilovg Dear friends, We should not underestimate a moment of right mindfulness of one nama or rupa at a time. We should not underestimate the process of accumulation of understanding. Khun Sujin spoke to Sarah about 'proximity condition', anantara paccaya. This is one of the types of condition among the 24 kinds. Each citta which arises conditions the next one. For example, votthapana-citta, which determines in the sense-door process whether it will be followed by kusala cittas or akusala cittas is proximity condition for the succeeding citta. There are usually seven javana- cittas, in the case of non-arahats kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Each one of them conditions the succeeding one. I quote from Sarah's letter: <....She was discussing different conditions in order to help to see the nature of anatta of all phenomena. In particular, she was discussing anantara paccaya or proximity condition to point out how the moments of understanding (of the namas and rupas) which succeed one another can lead to less clinging to 'Adelaide' as something or some situation. If there is more awareness that defilements also are not self, there will be less clinging to self. She pointed out that 'by not developing awareness whenever defilements arise, the defilements can rule over other dhammas'. It seems obvious, and we know so well in theory what reality is and what awareness is and yet so often seem to be 'back at square one' (It seems we have learnt nothing when it comes to the practice, N.)> Sarah's whole report about the different problems she experienced in the different situations of life seemed so familiar to me, they are the problems we all have, however much different our situations may seem to be. The situation is not important, we all have defilements and these cause us problems. With understanding of our daily life we can cope better with these problems and there are more conditions for consideration of others and more conditions for all kinds of wholesomeness. ***** Nina. #63100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reunion Consciousness nilovg Dear Plamen, There can only be one citta at a time, experiencing one object. But in between the processes of cittas bhavangacitta arises and this experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness and it is the same type of vipaakacitta. Thus, if one is born with pa~n~naa, all bhavangacittas are also accompanied by pa~n~naa. The bhavanga- citta keeps the continuation in the life of this or that individual. Perhaps this is what you mean by your question? Nina. Op 4-sep-2006, om 20:37 heeft Plamen Gradinarov het volgende geschreven: > Could it be that this pratisandhi-citta is somehow present at every > next moment of life as, so to say, the envoy of past, thus (somehow) > guaranteeing the unity of experience? #63101 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:57 am Subject: Rob K' s Forum on Jhana, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, I will select quotes from discussions on jhana from Rob K' s forum. Dear Group I just saw this website where a Buddhist monk claims the Theravada Commentaries have misunderstood jhanas and later in the article that the decline in Dhamma is due to the ancient Theravada Commentaries because they wrongly interpreted samadhi. QUOTE http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94& Brahmali: it might reasonably be asked why the Commentaries would mistakenly reinterpret the jhÄ?na/samÄ?dhi of central Sutta passages in terms of the later Abhidhamma concept of lokuttarajjhÄ?na and thereby significantly distort the message of the former. There are in fact several Sutta passages that relate to this question. These passages concern the future of the Dhamma and, in particular, they mention how a reduced respect for samÄ?dhi is a condition for the decline of the Buddha's teaching as a whole. Consider the following: "Just as, Kassapa, gold does not disappear so long as counterfeit gold has not arisen in the world, but when counterfeit gold arises true gold disappears, so the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma arises in the world then the true Dhamma disappears. ... It is senseless people who arise right here who cause the true Dhamma to disappear. Thus it appears that over time there is a natural tendency for the Dhamma to get distorted, that the distorters are members of the Sangha itself, and finally that one of the factors that lead to the gradual confusion and disappearance of the Dhamma is a lack of reverence and deference for samÄ?dhi> (end quote) --------- Dear Robert, Interesting essay. I don't know enough about this to comment. I'd like to learn more about lokkuttarajhaana. As far as "decline" of the Dhamma goes, one can just as easily suggest that the levelling out or "dumbing-down" of things is equally erosive. Is the position regarding lokkuttarajjhaana that it is a difficult-to-reach attainment? Does Ven. Brahmali make the point that the Commentarial literature "distorts" the message of the Suttas by clarifying that this is so? This would only seem to raise its status, that is, that it is an attainment requiring effort and arising only when conditions are ripe. Is this an example of disrespect for the Abhidhamma? Sorry for the naive questions; I've got to learn more about this distinction. Sincerely, Scott. --------- Dear Scott, Other members might have comments on the essay. I think like you; the Venerable Brahmali notes that these days it is said to be very difficult to attain genuine jhana, and then makes a leap and suggests that this is a lack of respect for jhana. However I think saying it is difficult is not showing disrespect, it is being realistic, as these days many take unusual experiences in concentration as being jhana. Rob K. ************** Nina. #63102 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Final Cut on Advantageous yet Harsh Speech! icarofranca Hi Ven.Samahita! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Just to be fully sure here: > Do you really indeed maintain that: > The killers nice and sweet talk: > 'May she sleep long & well' just before > she kills the sleeper with a knife indeed is > RIGHT SPEECH a factor of the Noble Path? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Definitively YES. The Octuple Noble Path´s Right Words are those "free from suffering, neither cause of suffering for yourself or for others". You´ve stated that the Killer´s words are beautiful, correct, sweet... a paradigm of correction: so it´s impossible judging them as KUSALA or AKUSALA without the external frame raised up by the Killer´s further actions. A Priori, they are right words. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > So SPEECH alone is also (kammic) Action in & by itself! > Yet these actions are all coupled & not separable: > First one intends one behaviour. This is Mental Action. > Then one thinks and say this. This is Verbal Action. > Finally one acts out this plan. This Bodily Action. > Speech can therefore not be evaluated independent > of its concurrent a priori mentality and a posteriori > behaviour as you seem to suggest... > Behind whatever kind of action the determinant factor > of whether this can be evaluated as: > Advantageous (kusala) or Detrimental (akusala) > is the INTENTION, whether this is based on or > mixed with Ignorance, Hate and/or Greed. > I have explained this before so far twice.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- So, if the killer keeps this melifluous words only for victim ears, who could judge his intention - Kusala or Akusala ? If the victim escapes, he will claim his right to see the Killer punished - his words and acts were AKUSALA. But...if the victim doesn´t manage to free himself from death snares, who will judge the good Killer´s words, if he doesn´t speak them for others ? It isn´t sufficient mentioning Suttas and parts of suttas to raise up an argumentation, if it lacks logical consistency, Bhante. Buddha was always pragmatical in His teachings, and logic is pragmatism. Again, if someone else can clarify more or bring forth a good correction, be free to do it! Mettaya and Ilhamdu Lillah! Ícaro #63103 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Polarity of This World! upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/5/06 12:29:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi All, > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Kaccayanagotta Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html > > "By &large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its > object) a polarity, that of existence &non-existence. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > The polarity of this world, that of existence &non-existence, is best > summed up by Ananda Sutta SN 44.10. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html > > Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly > greetings &courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he > asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?" > > When this was said, the Blessed One was silent. > > "Then is there no self?" > > A second time, the Blessed One was silent. > > Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. > > Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda > said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer > when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" > > "Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a > self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming > with those priests &contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism > [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being > asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer > that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & > contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that > death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by > Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that > there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of > knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" > > "No, lord." > > "And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no > self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered > Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used > to have now not exist?'" > ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Howard: IMO, the Ananda Sutta goes in a different direction, addressing a pragmatic issue of how to teach certain people. It doesn't directly teach anatta even as it applies to "the person". The Kaccayanagotta Sutta, IMO, teaches the emptiness of all dhammas and the emptiness of the conventional person. The emptiness of all dhammas is seen particularly in the following parts of the sutta: 1) By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. 2) 'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Incidentally, the expression 'the world' is often synonymous in the Dhamma with 'the all' - with the entirety of khandhic elements. In 1) above, the first use of 'world' (in "this world") refers, I believe, to humankind, and in the rest of 1) it refers to all conditioned dhammas. In 2) I take 'everything' to mean what it says - everything. ----------------------------------------------- > > "Does the self exists?" or "Does the self not exists?". > > > This is the polarity that besets the world since time immemorial. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree with you on this. That was not the polarity taught in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and neither in the Ananda Sutta nor anywhere else did the Buddha teach a middle way between self and no self. The Buddha's middle way was not a middle way between self and no self. He was the teacher of no self, period. ------------------------------------------------ > > But in one who is not resolved on "my self", knowing that when stress > arises, only stress is arising, and that when stress ceases, only > stress is ceasing, such a one is one who has arrived at Right View. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Kaccayanagotta Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html > > "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': > That is a second extreme. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > From an ego-centred point of view, "everything exists" if the self > exists, and "everything doesn't exist" if the self doesn't exist. --------------------------------------------- Howard: An interesting observation, but I'm not entirely sure what it means. On the face of it, it seems false to me. Would you care to expand upon it or expound on it any further? ------------------------------------------- > > Avoiding both extreme views of the self, the Buddha teaches the First > and Second Noble Truths via the forward order of Dependent Co-arising, > and the Third Noble Truth via the reverse order of Dependent Co- > arising. > > In one who sees the forward order of Dependent Co-arising as it is, he > sees only the arising of stress. And in one who sees the reverse order > of Dependent Co-arising as it is, he sees only the cessation of > stress. > > In short, dependent existence is stressful. The very ending of this > stressful dependent existence is nibbana. > > This, just this, is the True Dhamma. --------------------------------------- Howard: Just *what* is "the True Dhamma"? Your interpretation? (Some day I hope I get to know exactly what is the "true Dhamma". For the time being, I'll muddle along trying to see as best I can.) ------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ================== With metta, Howard #63104 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 3:46 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,100 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 100. (24) The same states that are presence condition, because they assist by their non-disappearance, should be understood as a 'non-disappearance condition'. Or this dyad is stated as an embellishment of teaching to suit the needs of those who are teachable, just as [in the Maatikaa of the Dhammasa"nga.nii] the 'dissociated-from-cause dyad' is given after the 'causeless dyad'. ************************ 100. atthi paccayadhammaa eva ca avigatabhaavena upakaarakattaa avigatapaccayoti veditabbaa. desanaavilaasena pana tathaa vinetabbaveneyyavasena vaa aya.m duko vutto, ahetukaduka.m vatvaapi hetuvippayuttaduko viyaati. #63105 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 51 philofillet Hi Nina > We should not underestimate a moment of right mindfulness of one nama > or rupa at a time. We should not underestimate the process of > accumulation of understanding. Khun Sujin spoke to Sarah about > 'proximity condition', anantara paccaya. This is one of the types of > condition among the 24 kinds. I feel quite a lot of confidence that moments of right mindfulness and other kusala factors have significant conditioning power for more of the same later at some time, we do not know when. It seems this must be so, because as we know akusala is so very prevalent, so if the relatively rare moments of kusala did not have significant conditioning power, there could be no progress - and we know there can. ("the wholesome can be cultivated, monks, if it couldn't I would not tell you so" or words to that effect in that sutta which I refer to so often, the sutta Lodewijk likes too.) Above proximitiy condition is mentionned. It is proximity condition that supports the javana cittas to run through the object six of the seven times, right? And proximity condition conditions consecutive series of kusala javanas? (i.e object falls away, but rearises and the wholesome response also rearises, conditioned proximately by the previous wholesome response?) But what of the conditioning that conditions wholesomeness to arise later, at some time well-removed from proximity? Is that natural decisive support condition? or...? I know it is not necessary to try to work out the way conditions work in detail. That is beyond us - but why is only proximity condition stressed here? The proximity condition does the accumulating, and natural decisive support condition conditions any arising that happens later thanks to the kusala having been accumulated? Thanks in advance. I'm only checking in every couple of days so please no hurry... Phil #63106 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Re: Rob K' s Forum on Jhana, no 1. buddhatrue Hi Nina, and Rob K (if you are here), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > Dear Scott, > Other members might have comments on the essay. I think like you; the > Venerable Brahmali notes that these days it is said to be very > difficult to attain genuine jhana, and then makes a leap and suggests > that this is a lack of respect for jhana. I read this article from beginning to end (it is quite short) and Venerable Brahmali doesn't do what Rob K. claims here. What Ven. Brahmali suggests is that because jhana is difficult to attain it has become downplayed (as in "I can't do that, so I will say it isn't important"): "So it seems that it is to be expected that the important role of samâdhi is undermined over time, and therefore one should perhaps not be surprised that this is exactly what seems to happen in the Pali Commentaries.(43) Maybe this is because samâdhi can appear so difficult to achieve. But this is obviously not a sufficient reason to downgrade its importance. Samâdhi is an integral part of the Buddhist path and any attempt to reduce its importance because it is hard to achieve, will only result in the exact opposite, making the true goal of the path, Enlightenment, even more difficult to achieve. By overlooking the absolutely central importance of samâdhi one is in grave danger of making the supreme goal of the Buddhist practice unattainable." http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94& However I think saying it > is difficult is not showing disrespect The author never claims anything about showing jhana disrespect by claiming it is difficult. I'm not sure that Rob K. really read this article closely enough. I think he needs to re-read it. , it is being realistic, as > these days many take unusual experiences in concentration as being > jhana. Is Rob K. an expert in jhana to determine such a thing? > Rob K. > ************** > Nina. I have been meaning to ask: How can we respond to a discussion that other people are having? Metta, James #63107 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Noosa ken_aitch Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear All, > > Let me just briefly list some of the topics discussed at breakfast which > we could only arrange at the last minute thanks to a partial recovery of > Ken H's health.... (I was the only one who scribbled any notes, so I hope > this may jog others' memories): > -------------- Excellent note taking thanks Sarah. One other topic we briefly touched on was the timely reminder, "That was in the past!" for people who have been sick and might be dwelling on it a little. On top of all the sympathy and special consideration I received, that was especially helpful. Right view is the best medicine. That reminds me of another brief topic - my new mantra: "It's the only way it can be! Any other way would be impossible!" In this case, for example, the only way is to understand "that was in the past!" There is no self that persists from the past to present - there is no self that was awake half the night coughing and might be feeling a bit out of sorts today as a result. With that understanding, there can be wholesome qualities (like courage, patience and good cheer) where, otherwise, there might have been depression and self-pity. There are, of course, other ways of staving off depression and self-pity (meditation therapies and behaviour-control techniques, for example), but none of them could be the way taught by the Buddha - it just isn't possible! Ken H #63108 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 11:20 pm Subject: Re: The Polarity of This World! ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, I agree with what you have written on polarity. I think it relates to the supposed eternal/non-eternal nature of the self. I do not think it addresses the existence or non-existence of dhammas. However, I am not sure you are strictly correct about the Ananda Sutta: ------- SB: > The polarity of this world, that of existence & non-existence, is best summed up by Ananda Sutta SN 44.10. -------- The Ananda Sutta involves a question that can be answered. The question, "Is there a self, or is there no self?" can be rightly answered, "There is no self." I could be wrong but, to my mind, this sets the Ananda Sutta apart from the polarity suttas. The latter involve questions that cannot be answered at all. They begin with the false premise of a self and ask whether or not that self will continue to exist. ------------- <. . .> SB: > "Does the self exists?" or "Does the self not exists?". This is the polarity that besets the world since time immemorial. But in one who is not resolved on "my self", knowing that when stress arises, only stress is arising, and that when stress ceases, only stress is ceasing, such a one is one who has arrived at Right View. ------------- I agree. Here, you are dealing with a polarity based on the false premise of a self. "Does the self exist?" is an altogether different question from "Is there a self?" and "Does the self not exist?" is altogether different from, "Is there no self?" -------------- <. . .> SB: > From an ego-centred point of view, "everything exists" if the self exists, and "everything doesn't exist" if the self doesn't exist. -------------- Yes, I agree with that too. However, I would not have agreed had you said, "Everything exists if there is a self and everything does not exist if there is no self." BTW, I don't think these polarity suttas address the question of present-moment existence at all. I think "everything exists" is another way of saying "everything continues after death," while "everything does not exist" means "everything is annihilated after death." --------------------- <. . .> SB: > In short, dependent existence is stressful. The very ending of this stressful dependent existence is nibbana. This, just this, is the True Dhamma. ---------------------- Well said - except for your use of "stressful" as a translation of dukkha. "Stressful" is a mischievous translation employed by Thanissaro Bhikkhu among others, who teach that nibbana is the "unbinding" or "setting free" of consciousness (changing it from a conditioned to an unconditioned dhamma (!!!)). Ken H #63109 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 11:44 pm Subject: Impermanence Video buddhatrue Hi All, Here is an interesting video which demonstrates the impermanence of the individual: Noah Takes a Photo of Himself Everyday for 6 Years http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B26asyGKDo Metta, James #63110 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K' s Forum on Jhana, no 1. nilovg Hi James, Are we not doing this all the time now, on dsg, butting in, etc. I think that we should let others feel free to express their views. Nina. Op 6-sep-2006, om 7:01 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I have been meaning to ask: How can we respond to a discussion that > other people are having? #63111 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanence Video nilovg Hi James, great. Nina Op 6-sep-2006, om 8:44 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Here is an interesting video which demonstrates the impermanence of > the individual: > Noah Takes a Photo of Himself Everyday for 6 Years #63112 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 3:12 am Subject: Re: Reunion Consciousness pgradinarov Dear Nina, Indeed, bhavanga and patisandhi are very close etymologically, both being types of existential links - anga, sandhi. Life ends up with the last patisandhi-citta, then citta goes bhavanga, and re-emerges with the first patisandhi-citta aiming at re-uniting with the 5 aggregates. This is as far life and death of an individual puggala are concerned. My question is more oriented towards "life" and "death" of a particular dhamma. Any dhamma emerges from bhavanga loaded with some kusala or akusala characteristics (say, prajna, as you suggest), flashes into existence only to submerge back into bhavanga. Is there any dhamma that is responsible for the unity of this particular thread here as reflected in our consciousness over a period of week, or more? Sort of patisandhi-citta of our topic? Kind of citta-samprayukta prapti, as distinct from the regular citta- viprayukta one? Kindest regards, Plamen > The bhavanga-citta keeps the continuation in the life of this or that individual. > Perhaps this is what you mean by your question? #63113 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:18 am Subject: Re: eye-base, visible object-base. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the clarification. S: "In the Pa.t.thaana, under Prenascence Condition (Purjaatapaccayo'ti)eye-base (cakkhaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa) is differentiated from visible object-base (ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa). N: "Eye-base is the ruupa that is eyesense, serving as vatthu, physical base or place of origin..." With loving kindness, Scott. #63114 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:44 am Subject: Re: The Polarity of This World! nidive Hi Ken H, > I agree with what you have written on polarity. I think it relates > to the supposed eternal/non-eternal nature of the self. I do not > think it addresses the existence or non-existence of dhammas. In my opinion, the Buddha only taught that "dhammas are empty of self". He never taught that "dhammas are empty of themselves". As I see it, the latter is a Mahayanist thought proliferation that detracts one from the Noble Eightfold Path. It never gets anyone anywhere near nibbana. That's why the Buddha never taught it, not in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta or anywhere else. > > SB: In short, dependent existence is stressful. > > The very ending of this stressful dependent existence is nibbana. > > This, just this, is the True Dhamma. > > Well said - except for your use of "stressful" as a translation of > dukkha. "Stressful" is a mischievous translation employed by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu among others, who teach that nibbana is the > "unbinding" or "setting free" of consciousness (changing it from a > conditioned to an unconditioned dhamma (!!!)). I am pleasantly surprised you would understand what I am saying! I must say I am starting to see DSG and Khun Sujin in a better light. And by the way, I DON'T AGREE with Thanissaro Bhikkhu on that but personally, I like to use the word "stressful". Regards, Swee Boon #63115 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanence Video upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 9/6/06 2:46:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi All, > > Here is an interesting video which demonstrates the impermanence of > the individual: > Noah Takes a Photo of Himself Everyday for 6 Years > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B26asyGKDo > > Metta, > James > ======================= What I found interesting was how little of an observable change there was in facial features - quite subtle for the most part. With metta, Howard #63116 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:21 am Subject: samadhi and vipassana nilovg Hi Matheesha, ------------ M:Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html M: I think from the above sutta it is clear that 1)both samatha and vipassana needs to develop. 2)They can be developed seperately. 3)If developed a little, they need to be developed more ie-there is no right time to start developing samatha or vipassana. Both need to be developed from the start to the finish. --------- N: The Co. to this sutta elaborates on the person who has attained insight: all conditioned dhammas should be seen as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. As to the question: how should the citta (N: referring to calm) be steadied? The answer is: by the first jhaana, so that he experiences only one object. Evenso the second jhana and so on. The wise person has samatha and vipassana that are mundane and supramundane, as the Buddha explained in many suttas and also in these three suttas. At the end of the third sutta (as you quoted) we see that he has reached arahatship, he has detroyed the aasavas. As to samatha and vipassana that are supramundane, also in other commentaries it has been explained that supramundane vipassana refers to the path-consciousness that eradicates defilements and supramundane samadhi refers to the calm accompanying the fruition- consciousness. The defilements have been eradicated and this is the highest calm. ---------- In these three suttas the Buddha praised samatha and vipassana. He did not say: everybody should develop both. In order to have more understanding of this sutta we should also take into consideration other parts of the teachings. The Abhidhamma can throw more light on the matter of samatha and vipassana. The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types explains in 'by Threes', 15: N: the sotaapanna has fulfilled siila, he does not transgress the five precepts.The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm. The arahat has fulfilled sila, samaadhi and also perfect insight. --------- As to the question: should everybody develop jhana: see the same book, the fours, 26: After this a person who attains both and a person who attains neither are mentioned. Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the dircriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka. ****** Nina. #63117 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:25 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, here is a post from Suan: June 1 2006, 03:45 PM Dear Robert K, Scott D, Mike N, Christine F, Nina and all How are you? I notice Brahamali's article regarding Jhaana controversy on Samatha forum. The problem with those who insist on samatha jhaanas as prerequisite for vipassanaa seems to be their failure to understand the reason behind the practice of samatha to the level of jhaana attainment. I am saying the above as one who would indulge in proper samatha practice in pursuit of jhaana accomplishment in the first available opportunity that is not possible in my current western lifestyle for the time being. To persue Samatha Jhaana in a western society like Australia, you either need to be rich enough to overcome any concerns related to livelihood or be brave enough to be able to survive as an outcast, perhaps living in the desert far away from western civilization. As I am neither of both, realistic samatha practice proper is out of my reach as things stand now. The most sensible approach an average person can take in a western society is, fortunately, also the most important practice of the Buddha's teachings, which is vipassanaa practice. Vipassanaa practice as taught in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam by the Buddha does not require us to attain samatha jhaanas whose main goals are superhuman powers in terms of Iddhis, which are worldly and dependent on conditions. In support of vipassanaa's capability to ensure attainment of awakening for nibbana, the Buddha taught us Gha.tikaara Suttam in Majjhimapannaasa, in Majjhimanikaaya. In Gha.tikaara Suttam, the Buddha listed Gha.tikaara's attributes in Section 288 that are all to do with noble faith, noble behaviors, noble understanding and noble awakening as a non-returner. As the Buddha dedicated one whole middle-length Suttam to Gha.tikaara the Pot-maker, he could have listed any samatha jhaana among Gha.tikaara's attributes if he had them. But, as none of the samatha jhaanas were mentioned as Gha.tikaara's attainments by the Buddha, we can know for sure that this noble pot-maker did not have any samatha jhaanas. Here is the Pali pasage from Section 288, Gha.tikaara Suttam, Majjhimapannaasa, Majjhimanikaaya. (follows the text in Pali) ****** Nina. #63118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eye-base, visible object-base. nilovg Dear Scott, when you read the Guide by U Narada you may find the charts confusing, with all these abreviations. I would not worry about these. His explanations in ch 2 are very good. The negative way is something I just left, and also the counting. As to the groups of conditions, common conditions, it slowly starts to dawn on me. You are welcome if you have any questions. Doing the Tiika studies also helped me to have more understanding of conditions. Nina, Op 6-sep-2006, om 15:18 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > "In the Pa.t.thaana, under Prenascence Condition > (Purjaatapaccayo'ti)eye-base (cakkhaayatana.m > cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa) is differentiated from visible object-base > (ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa). Messages 63119 - 63131 of 63131 Oldest | < Older | Newer > | Newest Messages: Show Message Summaries (Group by Topic) Sort by Date #63119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:06 am Subject: re:letter N. 51, proximity-condition. nilovg Hi Phil, I move the last remark to the front, because that is the answer you gave yourself. ---------------- Phil: The proximity condition does the accumulating, and natural decisive support condition conditions any arising that happens later thanks to the kusala having been accumulated? -------- N: Because of proximity-condition each citta that falls away conditions the next one and thus all good and bad qualities that are accumulated in the citta are 'carried on'. During the javanacittas new accumulations of kusala or akusala are added on. Whatever has been accumulated can condition the arising later on of kusala citta or akusala citta and the condition that operates then is called natural decisive support-condition. -------- Ph: Above proximitiy condition is mentioned. It is proximity condition that supports the javana cittas to run through the object six of the seven times, right? ------- N: Proximity-condiiton operates throughout life and thus also during the moments of javanacittas. Moreover, another condition operates at these moments: repetition-condition. Each javanacitta conditions the following one by this condition. They are the same types of citta, but different in strength. ------- Ph: And proximity condition conditions consecutive series of kusala javanas? (i.e object falls away, but rearises and the wholesome response also rearises, conditioned proximately by the previous wholesome response?) ------ N: Proximity pertains only to one citta that conditions the next citta. The following series of kusala cittas is conditioned by natural decisive support condition. ------- Ph:But what of the conditioning that conditions wholesomeness to arise later, at some time well-removed from proximity? Is that natural decisive support condition? or...? ------ N: Yes, and it can happen even in a future life. -------- Ph:I know it is not necessary to try to work out the way conditions work in detail. That is beyond us - but why is only proximity condition stressed here? ------- N: It helps us to understand that kusala and akusala is accumulated and goes on from one citta to the next one. Nina. #63120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:15 am Subject: to Plamen, correct. nilovg Dear Plamen, I will continue the letter that flew away, it was not finished. Nina. #63121 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Polarity of This World! nidive Hi Howard, > IMO, the Ananda Sutta goes in a different direction, addressing a > pragmatic issue of how to teach certain people. It doesn't directly > teach anatta even as it applies to "the person". The Kaccayanagotta > Sutta, IMO, teaches the emptiness of all dhammas and the emptiness > of the conventional person. The emptiness of all dhammas is seen > particularly in the following parts of the sutta: In my opinion, the Buddha only teaches that all dhammas are empty of self. Dhammas are void and without substance only because they are empty of self. > Incidentally, the expression 'the world' is often synonymous in the > Dhamma with 'the all' - with the entirety of khandhic elements. In > 1) above, the first use of 'world' (in "this world") refers, I > believe, to humankind, and in the rest of 1) it refers to all > conditioned dhammas. I agree with you that "world" can also mean the entirety of khandhic elements. And I agree with you that the first use of "world" refers to the world at large, the humans and devas with much dust in their eyes. However, I only agree that "origination of the world" and "cessation of the world" refers to the khandhic elements. "'Non-existence' with reference to the world" and "'existence' with reference to the world" refers to the world at large, the humans and devas with much dust in their eyes. From a linguistic point of view, only this can agree with the first statement that says "this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence". > In 2) I take 'everything' to mean what it says - everything. In my opinion, an implicit self is alluded to when the Buddha says "everything exists" and "everything don't exist". > > -------------------------------------------------- > > "Does the self exists?" or "Does the self not exists?". > > This is the polarity that besets the world since time immemorial. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: I disagree with you on this. That was not the polarity > taught in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and neither in the Ananda > Sutta nor anywhere else did the Buddha teach a middle way between > self and no self. The Buddha's middle way was not a middle way > between self and no self. He was the teacher of no self, period. > -------------------------------------------------- Of course, the Buddha's middle way is not a middle way of half-self. Middle way, in my opinion, is just a metaphorical way of expressing that the Buddha teaches a Path that avoids allusions to a self, whether that self is a self that exists forever (position of self), or a self that is annihilated at death (position of no self). > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From an ego-centred point of view, "everything exists" if the self > > exists, and "everything doesn't exist" if the self doesn't exist. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: An interesting observation, but I'm not entirely sure what > it means. On the face of it, it seems false to me. Would you care > to expand upon it or expound on it any further? > -------------------------------------------------- Perhaps you have been an arahant for too long to remember what it means to be "inflicted with a self"? :-) To an ego-deluded person who holds the position that "the self exists" or that "the self doesn't exist", this person is said to be a person who is "inflicted with a self", because either of his positions are based on the assumption of a self. Because of this assumption, the one who holds the position that "the self exists" will "pull in" and "associate" with the five aggregates, thinking "everything exists". Because of this assumption, the one who holds the position that "the self doesn't exist" will "push out" and "dissociate" with the five aggregates, thinking "everything doesn't exist". This is something I have personally experienced and I apologise that I can't really adequately put it into words. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: Just *what* is "the True Dhamma"? Your interpretation? > (Some day I hope I get to know exactly what is the "true Dhamma". > For the time being, I'll muddle along trying to see as best I can.) > ------------------------------------- I sincerely hope that you will see it soon and not too late! Regards, Swee Boon #63122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:13 am Subject: reunion-consciousness nilovg Dear Plamen, I think I have to learn Sanskrit for you! ------- P: Indeed, bhavanga and patisandhi are very close etymologically, both being types of existential links - anga, sandhi. Life ends up with the last patisandhi-citta, then citta goes bhavanga, and re-emerges with the first patisandhi-citta aiming at re-uniting with the 5 aggregates. ------- N: Not exactly. patisandhi-citta is the first citta in life and cuti- citta is the last citta in life, but they are the same types as all bhavangacittas in that life. Citta does not reemerge, the last one falls away and then it is succeeded by another citta, not the same one. This citta does not aim to reunite with the five khandhas. This is as far life and death of an individual puggala are concerned. My question is more oriented towards "life" and "death" of a particular dhamma. Any dhamma emerges from bhavanga loaded with some kusala or akusala characteristics (say, prajna, as you suggest), flashes into existence only to submerge back into bhavanga. Is there any dhamma that is responsible for the unity of this particular thread here as reflected in our consciousness over a period of week, or more? Sort of patisandhi-citta of our topic? Kind of citta-samprayukta prapti, as distinct from the regular citta- viprayukta one? #63123 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Polarity of This World! upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/6/06 11:22:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >IMO, the Ananda Sutta goes in a different direction, addressing a > >pragmatic issue of how to teach certain people. It doesn't directly > >teach anatta even as it applies to "the person". The Kaccayanagotta > >Sutta, IMO, teaches the emptiness of all dhammas and the emptiness > >of the conventional person. The emptiness of all dhammas is seen > >particularly in the following parts of the sutta: > > In my opinion, the Buddha only teaches that all dhammas are empty of > self. Dhammas are void and without substance only because they are > empty of self. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I understand that you see it that way. I certainly agree that a very important part of what the Buddha meant by dhammas being empty is their being impersonal. But to be "empty of self" includes more, IMO, than not being a soul or personal essence. There is no surprise in hardness and warmth not being my "self" and not being a "soul". There is no surprise in the bird sounds outside not being "me". There is no "aha!" in hearing that the odor of gasoline/petrol being pumped is not "my self". The teaching of anatta goes further than that, I believe, and I think that many suttas, including the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Uraga Sutta, and the Phena Sutta make that clear. I suspect that we will simply have to accept our differing on this matter and respect each other's right to his perspective. -------------------------------------------- > > >Incidentally, the expression 'the world' is often synonymous in the > >Dhamma with 'the all' - with the entirety of khandhic elements. In > >1) above, the first use of 'world' (in "this world") refers, I > >believe, to humankind, and in the rest of 1) it refers to all > >conditioned dhammas. > > I agree with you that "world" can also mean the entirety of khandhic > elements. And I agree with you that the first use of "world" refers to > the world at large, the humans and devas with much dust in their eyes. > > However, I only agree that "origination of the world" and "cessation > of the world" refers to the khandhic elements. > > "'Non-existence' with reference to the world" and "'existence' with > reference to the world" refers to the world at large, the humans and > devas with much dust in their eyes. > > From a linguistic point of view, only this can agree with the first > statement that says "this world is supported by (takes as its object) > a polarity, that of existence &non-existence". > > >In 2) I take 'everything' to mean what it says - everything. > > In my opinion, an implicit self is alluded to when the Buddha says > "everything exists" and "everything don't exist". ------------------------------------------ Howard: I respect your right to see it that way, and I don't consider that position to be absurd. I just don't concur with it. For me, it is an unwarranted stretch. ----------------------------------------- > > >>-------------------------------------------------- > >>"Does the self exists?" or "Does the self not exists?". > >>This is the polarity that besets the world since time immemorial. > >>-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: I disagree with you on this. That was not the polarity > >taught in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and neither in the Ananda > >Sutta nor anywhere else did the Buddha teach a middle way between > >self and no self. The Buddha's middle way was not a middle way > >between self and no self. He was the teacher of no self, period. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > Of course, the Buddha's middle way is not a middle way of half-self. > Middle way, in my opinion, is just a metaphorical way of expressing > that the Buddha teaches a Path that avoids allusions to a self, > whether that self is a self that exists forever (position of self), or > a self that is annihilated at death (position of no self). --------------------------------------------- Howard: We still disagree. The Buddha didn't always speak about no-self to people, because it isn't always useful to do so. But I have no doubt that the Buddha knew as fact that there is no self to be found in the conventional person or in any dhamma. I don't agree with Thanissaro Bhikkhu that there was just a not-self "strategy" taught by the Buddha. (BTW, I use 'self' more broadly than you, but that isn't at issue at the moment. Here we are speaking of personal self.) ---------------------------------------------- > > >>-------------------------------------------------- > >>From an ego-centred point of view, "everything exists" if the self > >>exists, and "everything doesn't exist" if the self doesn't exist. > >>-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: An interesting observation, but I'm not entirely sure what > >it means. On the face of it, it seems false to me. Would you care > >to expand upon it or expound on it any further? > >-------------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps you have been an arahant for too long to remember what it > means to be "inflicted with a self"? :-) ------------------------------------------ Howard: Cute! ----------------------------------------- > > To an ego-deluded person who holds the position that "the self exists" > or that "the self doesn't exist", this person is said to be a person > who is "inflicted with a self", because either of his positions are > based on the assumption of a self. > > Because of this assumption, the one who holds the position that "the > self exists" will "pull in" and "associate" with the five aggregates, > thinking "everything exists". > > Because of this assumption, the one who holds the position that "the > self doesn't exist" will "push out" and "dissociate" with the five > aggregates, thinking "everything doesn't exist". > > This is something I have personally experienced and I apologise that I > can't really adequately put it into words. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that when there is no sense of personal self - no "me", there is, per force be no sense of things observed by a "knowing self" or belonging to a "self" (no "mine"). I have personally experienced that. (So long as we are discussing what "you" and "I" have "personally" experienced! LOL!) But the sense of personal self is not the same as the sense that dhammas exist as things-in-themselves. Impersonality of dhammas is not all there is to dhammas being empty, IMO. Of course, with arahanthood, all reification - of "person" and of "things" - will cease, once and forever. ------------------------------------------- > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: Just *what* is "the True Dhamma"? Your interpretation? > >(Some day I hope I get to know exactly what is the "true Dhamma". > >For the time being, I'll muddle along trying to see as best I can.) > >------------------------------------- > > I sincerely hope that you will see it soon and not too late! ----------------------------------------- Howard: Do you claim to wish that for me "from on high", Swee Boon? Well, in any case, may we all come to know exactly what is what - soon, and may we cease to grasp onto anything, most especially our opinions. :-) ----------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard #63124 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] village monk 2 leoaive Hi Nina and All You need to enjoy something... I would like to enjoy nice forest or park then a state of "I do not care" But it is a personal choice........... With metta Leo #63125 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Polarity of This World! nidive Hi Howard, > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: I disagree with you on this. That was not the polarity > > taught in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and neither in the Ananda > > Sutta nor anywhere else did the Buddha teach a middle way between > > self and no self. The Buddha's middle way was not a middle way > > between self and no self. He was the teacher of no self, period. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Of course, the Buddha's middle way is not a middle way of half-self. > Middle way, in my opinion, is just a metaphorical way of expressing > that the Buddha teaches a Path that avoids allusions to a self, > whether that self is a self that exists forever (position of self), > or a self that is annihilated at death (position of no self). To add one more point, yes, the Buddha is the teacher of no self. But to hold the position that the self exists or the position that the self doesn't exist are all allusions to a self. Avoiding both positions that alludes to a self, the Buddha teaches the ULTIMATE NO SELF via dependent existence. Regards, Swee Boon #63126 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 5, 2006 9:52 pm Subject: Empty Equanimity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How is Release by Equanimity Achieved? The Blessed Buddha once said: And how, Bhikkhus, is release of mind by total Equanimity (Upekkha) achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the ultimate goal of mental release by universally neutral & imperturbable Equanimity? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading the frontal quadrant, with a mind imbued with infinite Equanimity, so the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. As above, so below, across, and everywhere, and to all beings so to himself, he dwells pervading the entire universe with a mind saturated with unlimited Equanimity, immense, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without any enmity, without any ill will! Thus prepared and expanded he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with limitless Equanimity. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such Equanimity. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with infinite Equanimity. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with absolute Equanimity. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with serene Equanimity. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with Equanimity. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with endless Equanimity. Based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release. If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in any unrepulsive & tempting, then he can dwell experiencing repulsiveness therein. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in any disgusting & repulsive, then he dwells experiencing pleasing beauty in whatever disgusting! If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the repulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive, he dwells experiencing repulsive disgust in it. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in what is both unrepulsive & repulsive, he experiences only unrepulsive beauty by it! If he wishes: Avoiding both the repulsive and the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity, just aware and clearly comprehending, then he dwells in equanimity, just aware and clearly comprehending! Or else, completely transcending the realm of infinitude of consciousness, only aware that there is nothing, he enters & dwells in the sphere of the void, empty & vacuous nothingness.. I tell you Bhikkhus for a wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, the mental release by imperturbable Equanimity has the sphere of the nothingness as its culmination! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 10:33 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 71 nilovg Dear friends, At the first moment of our life kamma produces the paìisandhi-citta and then rúpa has to arise at the same time. One may wonder what the cause is of the rúpa arising at the first moment of life. We see that people are born with different bodily features: some are strong, some are weak, some are handicapped from birth. This must have a cause. It is kamma which causes both nåma and rúpa to be born. Could the rúpa we call ``dead matter'' and the rúpa we call ``plant'' be produced by kamma? A plant is not ``born'' because a plant cannot perform good and bad deeds; it has no kamma that could cause its birth. Temperature is the condition for the life of a plant. As regards human beings, kamma produces rúpa at the moment the paìisandhi-citta arises. There couldn't be life if kamma did not produce rúpa from the first moment of life. There are four factors which produce different rúpas of the body. As we have seen kamma is one factor. The other factors are: citta, temperature and nutrition. Kamma produces rúpa at the moment the paìisandhi-citta arises and after that the other factors also start to produce rúpas. Temperature produces rúpa; if there were not the right temperature the new life could not develop. Temperature produces rúpa throughout our life. As soon as the paìisandhi-citta has fallen away, at the moment the next citta arises, citta too starts to produce rúpa, and it produces rúpa throughout our life. Furthermore, nutrition produces rúpa so that the body can grow. It produces rúpa throughout our life. Thus we see that there are four factors which produce rúpas of the body. As regards rúpas which are not of the body but rúpas outside, such as rúpas in dead matter or in plants, these are produced solely by temperature. Kamma produces rúpa not only at the first moment of life but throughout our life. Kamma does not only produce the vipåkacittas which experience pleasant and unpleasant objects through the sense- doors, it also produces throughout our life the rúpas which can function as the sense-doors through which these objects are received. Could we for instance create our own eyesense? It could not be produced by temperature, only by kamma. Transplantation of the eye cannot be successful unless kamma produces eyesense in the body of the receiver. ***** Nina. #63128 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 10:50 am Subject: reunion consciousness, continuation. nilovg Dear Plamen, just picking up our thread. N:Citta does not reemerge, the last one falls away and then it is succeeded by another citta, not the same one. This citta does not aim to reunite with the five khandhas. At the first moment of our life kamma has produced nama and rupa, five khandhas. These include the patisandhicitta, cetasikas and rupa. ------- P: This is as far life and death of an individual puggala are concerned. My question is more oriented towards "life" and "death" of a particular dhamma. Any dhamma emerges from bhavanga loaded with some kusala or akusala characteristics (say, prajna, as you suggest), flashes into existence only to submerge back into bhavanga. ----- N: you mean arising and ceasing of citta which is like momentary birth and death. The bhavanga is citta, there are bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away in between processes of cittas. There never is a moment without citta. In Theravada bhavanga is not something like subconsciousness, no citta emerges from it or submerges into it. An entirely different idea. As to loaded with kusala, actually there are kusala and akusala tendencies accumulated in each citta. See my post to Phil today. ------ P: Is there any dhamma that is responsible for the unity of this particular thread here as reflected in our consciousness over a period of week, or more? Sort of patisandhi-citta of our topic? Kind of citta-samprayukta prapti, as distinct from the regular citta- viprayukta one? ----- N:No special citta, they all roll on because of many different condiitoning factors. Nina. Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2) #63129 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Polarity of This World! upasaka_howard Hi again, Swee Boon - One more quick reply to what I consider a minor point: In a message dated 9/6/06 12:26:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > To add one more point, yes, the Buddha is the teacher of no self. > > But to hold the position that the self exists or the position that the > self doesn't exist are all allusions to a self. > ======================== I agree that language of the form "Self exists" or "Self does not exist" grammatically suggests a subject of self, but using such terminology doesn't imply that the user presumes a self that exists or does not! It is simply a common (but grammatically misleading) way of saying "There is no self" or "Nothing is self" or "There does not exist anything that is self". As far as I'm concerned, the Buddha taught that nothing of any sort, anywhere, is self. With metta, Howard #63130 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 11:19 am Subject: Re: reunion consciousness, continuation. pgradinarov Dear Nina, We are now right to the point. Cannot we take atita-bhavanga with respect to identifying a certain rupa-dharma as a kind of reminiscent cuti-citta in the previous rupa-tadalambana process? then residing in the ever vibrating bhavanga would be the latent continuation of the previous awareness until the vibrant bhavanga breaks up (upachedati) and the process of sense apprehension begins. I suppose, this scheme would be possible if the three bhavanga cittas were sarammana (salambana). What if they are not, what if they are truly niralambana? Kindest regards, Plamen #63131 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Polarity of This World! nidive Hi Howard, > > >-------------------------------------------------- > > Of course, the Buddha's middle way is not a middle way of half- > > self. Middle way, in my opinion, is just a metaphorical way of > > expressing that the Buddha teaches a Path that avoids allusions > > to a self, whether that self is a self that exists forever > > (position of self), or a self that is annihilated at death > > (position of no self). > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We still disagree. The Buddha didn't always speak about no-self to > people, because it isn't always useful to do so. But I have no doubt > that the Buddha knew as fact that there is no self to be found in > the conventional person or in any dhamma. I don't agree with > Thanissaro Bhikkhu that there was just a not-self "strategy" taught > by the Buddha. I posted an add-on post on this but it didn't appear. Anyway, yes, the Buddha did teach no self. But the position "the self exists" and the position "the self doesn't exist" are all allusions to a self. Avoiding both positions that allude to a self, the Buddha teaches ULTIMATE NO SELF via dependent existence. Regards, Swee Boon #63132 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 3:54 pm Subject: Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited ken_aitch Hi Howard, Thank you for your well wishes (back in the early days of my pneumonia). The end is in sight. The end of the pneumonia, that is, not of me! :-) ----------- <. . .> Howard: > Why should insight be called "practice"? ----------- As I understand it, mundane insight is the practice that leads to supramundane insight, and supramundane insight is the practice that leads to final release from dukkha. ------------------- H: > As to "association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma, and wise consideration of the true Dhamma," why are these intentional activities any less a matter of "ritual" than meditation? ------------------- In so far as they are intentional (formal) activities, I would agree; they have no efficacy in their own right. As mere concepts, they are neither kusala nor akusala - they are illusory. Belief in the efficacy of concepts means the same as belief in the efficacy of rituals. However, concepts can be useful in describing realities, and concepts of pariyatti are no exception. For example, the concept of seeking and keeping the company of wise people describes the dhammas that, ideally, underlie that concept: namely, citta *accompanied* by alobha, adosa and amoha. On the other hand, concepts of sitting quietly, trying to block out distractions - trying to create special circumstances for [my] vipassana - are very different. They can't be used to describe pariyatti at all. The dhammas that are most likely to underlie them are citta accompanied by lobha and mana, or citta accompanied by lobha and miccha-ditthi. ------------------ <. . .> KH: > > If there has been patipatti and/or pariyatti in the past, then mundane insight (at one of those two levels) might possibly be conditioned to arise now. In that way, there would be a continuation of the practice. > > Howard: > Suppose that they have not been in the past? How about the present, so that insight might arise in the future. The present time will become the past, you know! --------------------- Can there be insight now if there has been no wise association, no hearing and no considering of the true Dhamma? Can there even be an informed answer to that question if those factors have not been put in place? ----------- <. . .> KH: > > Yes, believing does it. That is, if we are using believing as a synonym for insight (samma-ditthi). > > Howard: > No, I am using 'believing' for believing. Insight is knowing! ------------ Can you be more specific? Which cetasika performs the function of believing? If it is just sanna remembering the words and associating them with the concept of truth then I would agree with you that mere "believing" has no effectiveness on its own. ------------------------------------ <. . .> Howard: > What you consider the reality of practice has nothing to do with practice. It is the fruit of practice. Practice is cultivation, not its fruit. ------------------------------------ The way I see it, the Buddha did not teach insight for insight's sake. He taught it as a practice leading to final release from dukkha. ----------- <. . .> KH: > > You are using 'actions' to include concepts. Concepts don't have consequences. > > Howard: > Being hit by a car is concept, right? Does it have no consequenses? C'mon, Ken, get real!!! ------------ I think you mean get conventional! :-) We don't need a Buddha to tell us that being hit by a car has consequences. We do need a Buddha to tell us that, ultimately, there is no car and no pedestrians; there are only conditioned dhammas. With this unique knowledge, a 'monk' can develop enlightenment at any time - even while being knocked to the ground in a crumpled, bleeding heap. ----------------------------- KH: > > > The Buddha's instructions are hard to follow. The right conditions > must be in place, and they are very rare. > > Howard: That is one of the most terrible things I've ever read written by a Buddhist. There have been times I've written that there is sometimes expressed on DSG a sense of helplessness and hopelessness. Well, there it is, folks - right in front of us. ------------------------------ I seem to have pressed a wrong button! :-) Perhaps you can explain it for me, but I don't see how I have said anything different from what I, and others, have been saying every day on DSG. Ken H #63133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 10:39 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 52 nilovg Dear friends, 28 July '82. Jakarta. Dear Susie, You just handed me some helpful points in your letter which I want to quote. You point out that we forget that it is kilesa, defilements, which drive us on in daily life. When we like akusala we do not seem to see it: <...I don't think that we just have to talk about the problems of the day or the situation, but what about all those times when life is running so smoothly. That is when it is harder for Blanche and for me (N: and for me !!) to see that even when life is comfortable (probably just more lobha) that is the moment when understanding is needed also. Tomorrow may fall apart, but today has been full of pleasantries, good laughs and good food, but I did not see any need to be aware during any of it....> Susie then proceeds saying that someone who sits in a quiet place can be just as infatuated by his thoughts as someone who is joining with his friends. In other words it is essential to know citta now, whatever one feels like doing, otherwise one takes for noble calm what is just selfishness, 'my calm'; attachment to an idea one takes for calm. A good point to remember is that also when life is smooth we need to develop understanding. When I am in a difficult situation, on the verge of tears, I may grab the teachings in order to find a consoling word to help me keep going. One ponders about it, it is helpful, but also when there is no trouble the Buddha liked to remind us: life is short, even now we are in trouble, going towards death without fail, there is decay in our body right now, our head is on fire and in such situation we do not delay to find a remedy. The remedy is knowing the truth of something which is right at hand: six doors. Thus, we really need the teachings, just as we need food every day. It should become a habit to take this food, a habit one should really cultivate. My food at lunch was so good (tempe with vegetables), while I was reading your letter and laughing at your touches of humor (you are always to me a person full of fun), and how easily we forget to know such moments for what they are: conditioned and passing, not self. You then quote Khun Sujin who says that, when we have a problem, it is important to understand, not so much the story of the problem, the details, the situation, the people involved, but really the defilements which are the real cause of problems. ***** Nina #63134 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 5:42 pm Subject: Re: The Polarity of This World! nidive Hi Howard, > I agree that language of the form "Self exists" or "Self does not > exist" grammatically suggests a subject of self, but using such > terminology doesn't imply that the user presumes a self that exists > or does not! It is simply a common (but grammatically misleading) > way of saying "There is no self" or "Nothing is self" or "There > does not exist anything that is self". As far as I'm concerned, > the Buddha taught that nothing of any sort, anywhere, is self. Self of course does not exist as an entity out there. And I agree that the Buddha taught that nothing of any sort, anywhere, is self. However, to a worldling with much dust in their eyes, self is as real as it can get. It is the world's most powerful destructive force that causes humanity at large to commit all sorts of evil. To avoid confusion to a worldling who takes self as real as it can get, the Budha avoids allusions to a self when teaching the middle path. For arahants and even sotapannas, self of course is just an illusion. I believe that in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Buddha is teaching to a worldling who takes self as real as it can get. You can't teach a worldling who thinks like that with positions of self or positions of no self. It only furthers the worldling's confusion and thought proliferations and doesn't lead him on the Noble Path. Regards, Swee Boon #63135 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 9:21 am Subject: Re: reunion-consciousness pgradinarov Dear Nina, Patisandhi is explained as both the last and the first citta on accesstoinsight site. For instance, Bhikkhu Ñanasampanno Maha Thera says: Patisandhi: Re-uniting. Patisandhi Viññana is that form of consciousness which is similar to Bhavanga Citta, but which occurs at death, thereby leading the Citta to re-unite with the Khandhas in a new birth. I have collected a number of quotes on bhavanga here http://www.ratnavali.com/forum/topic,232.0/ You say they (patisandhi and cuti) are of the same type as all bhavanga-cittas. Does it mean that ultimately they are bhavanga- cittas? As for citta sampayutta and citta vippayutta, sorry for giving their Sanskrit equivalents. Kindest regards, Plamen > N: Not exactly. patisandhi-citta is the first citta in life and cuti- > citta is the last citta in life, but they are the same types as all > bhavangacittas in that life. #63136 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: eye-base, visible object-base. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you, Nina. N: "...As to the groups of conditions, common conditions, it slowly starts to dawn on me. You are welcome if you have any questions. Doing the Tiika studies also helped me to have more understanding of conditions." I'm quite excited about Pa.t.thaana, if one might say so. I've been reading the text (PTS) along the Chattha Sangayana CD paali version. Very slow. I've been reading your treatise on the text as well, along with portions of the Naarada Introduction connie sent me. I'm getting Dhammasanghani and its commentary next, but then the Introduction to CR. I like what you say about the nature of the conditions dawning on one as one studies. That's true. The intricacy of the exposition seems to seep out. Quite beautiful. I'll certainly be asking more questions as I go, thanks for offering to consider them. With loving kindness, Scott. #63137 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanence Video buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ======================= > What I found interesting was how little of an observable change there > was in facial features - quite subtle for the most part. Yeah, I noticed that too. He stays at pretty much the same weight. If it was a video of me you would see me getting fat, skinny, fat, and skinny again! ;-)) The thing that struck me about the video is that it reminded me of the Buddha's teaching on rebirth. The Buddha taught that when there is rebirth the person isn't the same as before, but isn't entirely different either. I think the same could be said about one lifetime. We aren't the same as we were six years ago, but we aren't entirely different either. Metta, James #63138 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/6/06 7:02:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for your well wishes (back in the early days of my > pneumonia). The end is in sight. The end of the pneumonia, that is, > not of me! :-) ------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Very glad to hear! ------------------------------------ > > ----------- > <. . .> > Howard: >Why should insight be called "practice"? > ----------- > > As I understand it, mundane insight is the practice that leads to > supramundane insight, and supramundane insight is the practice that > leads to final release from dukkha. ------------------------------------------ Howard: As I understand English, I don't know why one would refer to insight, mundane or not, as practice. Nor would I call knowledge practice, nor call metta practice, nor any other such thing. Doing so treats the word 'practice' as if it had no meaning, as I see the matter. ------------------------------------- > > ------------------- > H: >As to "association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma, and > wise consideration of the true Dhamma," why are these intentional > activities any less a matter of "ritual" than meditation? > ------------------- > > In so far as they are intentional (formal) activities, I would agree; > they have no efficacy in their own right. --------------------------------------- Howard: So, the intention to associate with the wise, to hear the true Dhamma, and to wisely consider it has no efficacy? Intention is kamma. Kusala intention is certainly efficacious so far as I know. These particular intentions are most particularly kusala. Of course, if one doesn''t act on these good intentions, then they are worthless. They are idle desire. But I think that you are missing the boat in associating ritual with actions based on wholesome intentions. When an activity bears no relation to a desired result, but one still engages in that activity, thinking that magically the result will somehow occur anyway, that is acting ritualistically. ------------------------------------------ As mere concepts, they are> > neither kusala nor akusala - they are illusory. Belief in the efficacy > of concepts means the same as belief in the efficacy of rituals. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't a clue as to what you are asserting here. ----------------------------------------- > > However, concepts can be useful in describing realities, and concepts > of pariyatti are no exception. For example, the concept of seeking and > keeping the company of wise people describes the dhammas that, > ideally, underlie that concept: namely, citta *accompanied* by alobha, > adosa and amoha. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that well grounded concepts are useful, figurative shorthands for huge bodies of enormously complex, literal speech. We couldn't communicate without them or think without them. ----------------------------------------- > > On the other hand, concepts of sitting quietly, trying to block out > distractions - trying to create special circumstances for [my] > vipassana - are very different. They can't be used to describe > pariyatti at all. The dhammas that are most likely to underlie them > are citta accompanied by lobha and mana, or citta accompanied by lobha > and miccha-ditthi. ----------------------------------------- Howard: When I'm meditating, I quickly leave most conceptualizing behind. ----------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > <. . .> > KH: >>If there has been patipatti and/or pariyatti in the past, then > mundane insight (at one of those two levels) might possibly be > conditioned to arise now. In that way, there would be a continuation > of the practice. > >> > > Howard: > > Suppose that they have not been in the past? How about the present, so > that insight might arise in the future. The present time will become > the past, you know! > --------------------- > > Can there be insight now if there has been no wise association, no > hearing and no considering of the true Dhamma? Can there even be an > informed answer to that question if those factors have not been put in > place? ------------------------------------------ Howard: What there needs to be *now* is wise association, hearing, considering, and applying. If no efforts are made in this direction now, and there weren't in the past either, perhaps we'll be lucky and stumble onto something useful in the future. (I call this "the dumb luck approach to Dhamma." ;-) -------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > <. . .> > KH: >>Yes, believing does it. That is, if we are using believing as > a synonym for insight (samma-ditthi). > >> > > Howard: > > No, I am using 'believing' for believing. Insight is knowing! > ------------ > > Can you be more specific? Which cetasika performs the function of > believing? > -------------------------------------- Howard: Beats me! Do I need names? ------------------------------------- If it is just sanna remembering the words and associating> > them with the concept of truth then I would agree with you that mere > "believing" has no effectiveness on its own. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That sounds close. Of course, if the belief is correct AND one acts on that correct belief, then good results can follow. ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------ > <. . .> > Howard: >What you consider the reality of practice has nothing to do > with practice. It is the fruit of practice. Practice is cultivation, > not its fruit. > ------------------------------------ > > The way I see it, the Buddha did not teach insight for insight's sake. > He taught it as a practice leading to final release from dukkha. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Insight leads to release. For sure. But insight isn't practice. It is a cetasika that arises due to conditions that do constitute practice. The cultivation of pa~n~na is complex, and involves cultivation of simpler, preliminary conditions. The more major steps require smaller steps, and the simplest of these, directly achievable, are achievable volitionally (in a way analogous to lifting your finger to type a key). ------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > <. . .> > KH: >>You are using 'actions' to include concepts. Concepts don't > have consequences. > >> > > Howard: >Being hit by a car is concept, right? Does it have no > consequenses? > C'mon, Ken, get real!!! > ------------ > > I think you mean get conventional! :-) We don't need a Buddha to tell > us that being hit by a car has consequences. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: You are contradicting yourself. You just said that concepts do NOT have consequences! Now, the fact is that concepts do have consequences, but only figuratively speaking. It is the actual conditions underlying a concept that actually have the conseqences. Being hit by a car, will send us either to a hospital or the morgue. Both the cause and the effect are conventional events. Underlying each of these is a host of complexly interrelated, actual phenomena - namas and rupas. When one of the Buddha's monks followed his instructions and intentionally sat under a tree, with body erect, and attentive to his breath, and then entered the first jhana, that was all concept. But there were realities underlying all that. ---------------------------------------- We do need a Buddha to> > tell us that, ultimately, there is no car and no pedestrians; there > are only conditioned dhammas. With this unique knowledge, a 'monk' can > develop enlightenment at any time - even while being knocked to the > ground in a crumpled, bleeding heap. --------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, you have that knowledge. Are you counting on enlightenment any time soon? If not, what, then, is missing? -------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------- > KH: >> > >The Buddha's instructions are hard to follow. The right conditions > >must be in place, and they are very rare. > >> > > Howard: > That is one of the most terrible things I've ever read written by a > Buddhist. There have been times I've written that there is sometimes > expressed on DSG a sense of helplessness and hopelessness. Well, there > it is, folks - right in front of us. > ------------------------------ > > I seem to have pressed a wrong button! :-) Perhaps you can explain it > for me, but I don't see how I have said anything different from what > I, and others, have been saying every day on DSG. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: You've simply been far more "up front" and straightforward about this matter than I have seen others be. Actually, you've pressed the right button, Ken: the clarity button. You have left no doubt as to where you stand. That's for the good. I like clarity. :-) ----------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > > > ======================= With metta, Howard #63139 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 11:17 pm Subject: Binara Poya Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Binara Poya day is the full-moon of September. This holy day celebrates the inauguration of the Bhikkhuni Sangha by the ordination on this very day of Queen Mahapajapati, the Buddha's foster-mother & her retinue. For life details on this excellent woman, who awakened as Arahat Theri: See: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/mahapajapati_gotami.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbana: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here. A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The True Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. Friendship is the Greatest ... Composed for the purpose of Gladdening Good People! http://What-Buddha-Said.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://groups.yahoo.com/group/What_Buddha_Said Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. #63140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 2:01 am Subject: reunion-consciousness nilovg Dear Plamen, ****** P: Cannot we take atita-bhavanga with respect to identifying a certain rupa-dharma as a kind of reminiscent cuti-citta in the previous rupa-tadalambana process? then residing in the ever vibrating bhavanga would be the latent continuation of the previous awareness until the vibrant bhavanga breaks up (upachedati) and the process of sense apprehension begins. ------ N: Atita-bhanagacitta: the past bhavanga, this is a name, indicating that after that two more bhavanga-cittas will be disturbed by the object that impinges on a sense-door, before the first citta of a new process starts, the sense-door adverting-consciousness. The last bhavanga-citta before the process starts is the upaccheda- bhavangacitta, arrest bhavanga. This does not have to do with cuti-citta (of a previous life). -------- P:I suppose, this scheme would be possible if the three bhavanga cittas were sarammana (salambana). What if they are not, what if they are truly niralambana? ***** N: All bhavangacittas experience an object (you call this salambana), there is no citta without any object. As said their object is the same as that of the rebirth-consciousness. Throughout one life they have the same object. Their stream is interrupted by the cittas arising in processes and these experience an object that impinges on one of the six doorways. Bhavanga-cittas do not experience an object through a doorway. ******* P: Patisandhi is explained as both the last and the first citta on accesstoinsight site. For instance, Bhikkhu Ñanasampanno Maha Thera says: Patisandhi: Re-uniting. Patisandhi Viññana is that form of consciousness which is similar to Bhavanga Citta, but which occurs at death, thereby leading the Citta to re-unite with the Khandhas in a new birth. ****** N: This is different from Theravada. Patisandhi is used for: relinking at rebirth only. The dying-consciousness can also be called the last bhavangacitta. Citta reuniting with the five khandhas sounds to me like an atman that carries over to a next life. but each citta falls away completely. Nina. #63141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 2:08 am Subject: Rob's forum on Jhana, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Rob K: Anagami are said to be perfect in concentration :they no longer have sense desire, dosa, doubt and other hinrdrances after all. And yet there are examples like Gha.tikaara who do not appear to have them. I think the commentaries explain that at or near death moment they spontaneously develop the jhans which lead to rebirth in the Pure abodes. Robert This is an old post from Kom on dsg. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tikmok" wrote: Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have tons of words that help us understand the different realities that are rising now. It's mind boggling to see how many different ways the tipitaka describes the word panna (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a question of how many words there are: it is the question of why we read/listen to the words for, and why we use those many words. Words are two-sided blades: they cut either way. I am not sure if I am right to assume that your latter statement (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. However, it does seem to me that his discussion is along the line of the former statement (Discussing jhana...). Regarding to the sentiment that dissuading people from the practice of Jhana is a DSG instituition, let me offer an explanation from someone who have asked a similar question. Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to disuade people from Jhana: 1) Satipathana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibanna. Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point as far as I know. 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already overwhelming to some of us. 3) Beyond studying realities and satipathana, it is important to develop all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly falls within this parameter. 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people with the right accumulations can develop this. 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intricacies of Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing this. (to be continued). ******* Nina. #63142 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 3:08 am Subject: Re: reunion-consciousness pgradinarov Dear Nina, If bhavanga-cittas are salambana (possessing an object, or at least intending an object - intentionality being the characteristic of all mental phenomena), and we have one and the same experience while looking at this red Chinese rose, then the last (cuti) citta and the first (patisandhi) citta should also have one and the same object, otherwise there would be no unitary rose present to our mind. So, being salambana and having both the nature of bhavanga-cittas, the last thought and the first thought must be identical. Their difference is only prajnaptical, a matter of nominal convention and conceptual thinking (pa~n~natti). For me, there is no fundamental difference between dying every moment and dying in the conventional sense of the word after a time- period of 80 or 100 years. We are aggregates of dhammas flashing into existence and instantly vanishing. Our present life is a short and condensed image of our perpetual revolving in samsara. Much in the same way as the last citta in the process of recognizing a rupa is its final identification (tadarammana), so the last thought before we conventionally die is (or should be in the ideal case) the thought of who we really are, the realisation of our paramarthata tadatmya (ultimate identity) which is the Buddha nature. Applying Abhidhamma in daily life is really fascinating. Kindest regards, Plamen #63143 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 4:08 am Subject: Re: Binara Poya Day ... !!! icarofranca Hi Ven.Samahita! -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Binara Poya day is the full-moon of September. This holy day celebrates > the inauguration of the Bhikkhuni Sangha by the ordination on this very > day of Queen Mahapajapati, the Buddha's foster-mother & her retinue. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Here in Brazil September 7th is our Independence Day! (Since you are north-american this couldn´t be of your concern...but I will post this remark goodheartedly!) Mettaya and Ilhamdu Lillah Ícaro #63144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 100 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 100. Non-disappearance-condition, avigata-paccaya. Intro: Non-disappearance-condition is the same as presence-condition. A dhamma which has not yet disappeared can, while it is still present, condition other dhammas. However, the conditioning dhamma cannot stay on, it has to disappear. Just as in the case of presence-condition, the conditioning dhamma can be prenascent, conascent or postnascent to the dhamma it conditions by way of non-disappearance-condition. ----------- Text Vis.: 100. (24) The same states that are presence-condition, because they assist by their non-disappearance, should be understood as a 'non-disappearance-condition'. -------- N: The Tiika states that just as absence-condition (natthi-paccaya) and disappearance-condition (vigata-paccaya) are not different as to reality (dhammato), evenso presence-condition (atthi-paccaya) and non- disappearance-condition (avigata-paccaya) are not different as to reality. Their nature is the same, but they are different types of conditions showing different aspects. In the case of presence-condition the conditioning dhamma assists the conditioned dhamma by its presence, and in the case of non-disappearance-condition the conditioning dhamma assists the conditioned dhamma by virtue of not having reached the point of cessation. ------------- Text Vis. :Or this dyad is stated as an embellishment of teaching to suit the needs of those who are teachable, just as [in the Maatikaa of the Dhammasa"nga.nii] the 'dissociated-from-cause dyad' is given after the 'causeless dyad'. --------- N: A condition stated in one way is stated again in a different way to instruct those people who need to be instructed (vinetabbaveneyyavasena). Out of compassion the Buddha explained the dhamma in different ways for the sake of those who were ready to receive the Dhamma (veneyya). The Visuddhimagga gives as an example the teaching the of dyad of ahetuka and of hetuvippayutta, which are the same in meaning, namely being without roots or hetus, but expounded in a different wording. The Tiika states that one should have confidence in the Buddha who taught twentyfour different conditions and who had realised as it truly is the difference in the forces of dhammas in all aspects. The Tiika states that when one has acquired understanding by listening (suttamaya-~naa.na) one reaches the knowledge that dhammas are different in this way, and one should make efforts to understand this through insight by right consideration (cinta) and development (bhaavana). ******** Conclusion: As we have seen, visible object conditions seeing by way of prenascent presence-condition. It has arisen before seeing, but when it is experienced by seeing it is still present; it has not fallen away since ruupa lasts longer than citta. The other cittas of the eyedoor process also experience visible object which is still present. Also the eyesense conditions seeing by way of prenascent presence-condition. Visible object and eyesense also condition seeing by way of non- disappearance-condition, they can assist seeing before they disappear. The time of presence of these conditions before they disappear is extremely short and this shows us that nobody can direct the conditioning factors for the arising of the different dhammas. They come together at the right time so that seeing and the other dhammas can occur for an extremely short moment and perform their functions. The different types of conditions operate at this moment, they are not mere theory. We are reminded of this fact by the Tiika that refers to pa~n~naa of the level of listening, of the level of reflection and of the level of development. Mindfulness and understanding should be developed of the dhamma that appears now because of its appropriate conditions. In this way confidence grows in the Buddha’s wisdom who penetrated the twentyfour conditions in all aspects. ***** Nina. #63145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 7:46 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe 72 nilovg Dear friends, Birth by way of the mother's womb is not the only way of birth. We learn from the teachings that there can be birth in four different ways: by way of the womb, by way of eggs, by way of moisture and by way of spontaneous birth. People would like to know when life starts in the mother's womb. We cannot determine the exact moment. Life starts at the moment the paìisandhi-citta arises together with the rúpa which is at the same time produced by kamma. A lifespan ends when the last citta, the dying-consciousness (cuti-citta) falls away. So long as the dying- consciousness has not fallen away there is still life. One cannot know the moment the dying-consciousness of someone else arises and falls away unless one has cultivated the knowledge of the cittas of other people. A Buddha or someone else who has cultivated this special kind of knowledge could know the exact moment of someone's death. We may wonder which kamma in our life will produce the paìisandhi- citta of the next life. Some people believe that by doing many good deeds in this life they can be assured of a happy rebirth. But the kamma which produces rebirth will not necessarily be from this life. We have in past lives as well as in this life performed both akusala kamma and kusala kamma and these kammas are of different degrees. Some kammas produce results in the same life they have been performed, some produce result in the form of rebirth-consciousness of a future life, or they produce result in the course of a future life. We have performed deeds in past lives which could produce rebirth but which have not yet come to fruition. We cannot know which kamma will produce our next rebirth. If akusala kamma produces the rebirth of the next life there will be an unhappy rebirth. In that case the cittas which arise shortly before the dying-consciousness are akusala cittas and they experience an unpleasant object. The paìisandhi-citta of the next life which succeeds the cuti-citta (the dying-consciousness), experiences that same unpleasant object. If kusala kamma produces the rebirth there will be a happy rebirth. In that case kusala cittas arise shortly before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. The paìisandhi-citta of the next life experiences that same pleasant object. ***** Nina. #63146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 7:58 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 53 nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of my letter to Susie) You stress how we also cling to 'my dosa': <...life is basically running well for Tadao and I, until the next difficulty arises. And then I may once again be as swept away by 'my problem'...And somehow we even cling to the story of my problems and the negative aspects of life. I think we like to elaborate on the dosa side of life. I think we are very attached at times to our difficult or sad story and like to draw people's concern to us by elaborating only on these aspects of our day. I lived in the 'oh poor me' world for a long time and it is a difficult habit to break. We fail to see that the whole point of Dhamma is absolutely positive.> End quote. You then ask me about my remark, that one can understand more about metta if one sees that it all comes back to the citta now. Well, if we have no understanding of citta now, whether it is kusala or akusala, don't we misled ourselves most of the time, taking for metta what is in fact attachment? Like you just wrote, you prepare a meal for the one you love, mostly with attachment. We may think and write about metta, but what about it now? We usually forget about the present moment, but if there is less forgetfulness and thus also less absorption in all the objects which seem to assail us, there is more opportunity for metta. You remark about something you heard: how can we ever give up the idea of self if we can't give away things, and you ask whether this can be applied to metta. Yes, because metta is unselfishness; when there is metta, you actually give something to someone else: kindness, kind thoughts, kind words, or kind acts. Metta is one of the perfections the Bhodhisatta had to develop together with satipatthana in order to attain Buddhahood. The development of right understanding of nama and rupas conditions more metta in life. ****** Nina. #63147 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] reunion-consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/7/06 5:05:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Bhavanga-cittas do not experience an object > through a doorway. > ========================= Can you say more about that, Nina? What sort of object is it if neither visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory, or mental? If even it is but a memory, that would make it mental, would it not? Should the object of a bhavanga-citta be an object of one of these sorts yet known directly, not via a sense door, what is the role of a sense door that distinguishes that object and the knowing of it in the patisandhi-citta from "the same" object and knowing of it in a bhavanga-citta? Also, and more importantly, I think, the Buddha said that contact is the coming together of object, sense door, and consciousness. Without the doorway, does that mean that there is no phassa as a cetasika of a bhavanga-citta? Elements of this commentarial notion of bhavanga-citta seem problematical on the face of it. Can the notion be well harmonized with the Abhidhamma itself? With metta, Howard #63148 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 8:53 am Subject: A question about lethargy and indolence onco111 In Mohandas Gandhi's autobiography (chapter XIX), he writes: "Let me simply mention my flying visit to Burma, and the foongis [monks] there. I was pained by their lethargy. I saw the golden pagoda. I did not like the innumerable little candles burning in the temple, and the rats running about the sanctum brough to my mind thoughts of Swami Dayanand's experience at Morvi. The freedom and energy of the Burmese women charmed just as the indolence of the men pained me." Wouldn't a focus on detachment naturally lead to apathy, indifference, lethargy, and indolence? Aren't the most energetic, productive people energetic and productive precisely because they are strongly attached to realizing their goals? Is serious Buddhism incompatible with success and excellence in worldly matters? Dan #63149 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question about lethargy and indolence upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/7/06 11:56:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > In Mohandas Gandhi's autobiography (chapter XIX), he writes: "Let me > simply mention my flying visit to Burma, and the foongis [monks] there. > I was pained by their lethargy. I saw the golden pagoda. I did not like > the innumerable little candles burning in the temple, and the rats > running about the sanctum brough to my mind thoughts of Swami > Dayanand's experience at Morvi. The freedom and energy of the Burmese > women charmed just as the indolence of the men pained me." > > Wouldn't a focus on detachment naturally lead to apathy, indifference, > lethargy, and indolence? Aren't the most energetic, productive people > energetic and productive precisely because they are strongly attached > to realizing their goals? Is serious Buddhism incompatible with success > and excellence in worldly matters? > > Dan > > ========================= Gandhi was a great man, but probably not a telepath, and surely not omniscient. What he took for apathy might well have been merely equanimity. (Also, who can say what was the caliber of monks he came across.) In any case, the means of cultivating detachment isn't focusing on detachment (as an idea or wished-for state), but maintaining an energetic mindfulness and nondistraction, cultivating clarity along with calm, and applying the four-fold right effort. This practice requires determination and energy, and, it is certainly goal directed. With metta, Howard #63150 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 10:07 am Subject: Re: A question about lethargy and indolence pgradinarov Dear Dan, The politically correct answer is Yes. The philosophical answer is: If the ideal of buddhahood had to be realized here and now, for all human beings, this would mean the end of human history. > Is serious Buddhism incompatible with success > and excellence in worldly matters? Kindest regards, Plamen #63151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 11:24 am Subject: bhavangacitta and object nilovg Hi Howard (and Plamen), :Bhavanga-cittas do not experience an object > through a doorway. > ========================= H: Can you say more about that, Nina? What sort of object is it if neither visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory, or mental? If even it is but a memory, that would make it mental, would it not? -------- N: It is the same object as experienced during the last javanacittas before the dying-consciousness. It is kamma that conditioned that object. Those javanacittas experienced it through any of the six doors, after that the dying-consciousness arose which has as its only function being the last citta of a lifespan. The dying- consciousness experienced the same object as the first citta of the life that is about to end and as all bhavanga-cittas of that life. The dying-consciousness is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life and this has the same object as the last javanacittas of the previous life. You posted some time ago a long quote from the Visuddhimagga about rebirth where the simile of an echo was used. Now all bhavangacittas experience that same object, but this kind of experience is door-freed (dvara-vimutta) and process freed (viithi vimutta). This way of experiencing is quite different from the way cittas that arise in processes and experience objects through the doorways experience an object. --------- H: Should the object of a bhavanga-citta be an object of one of these sorts yet known directly, not via a sense door, what is the role of a sense door that distinguishes that object and the knowing of it in the patisandhi-citta from "the same" object and knowing of it in a bhavanga-citta? ----- N: It is altogether different. -------- H: Also, and more importantly, I think, the Buddha said that contact is the coming together of object, sense door, and consciousness. Without the doorway, does that mean that there is no phassa as a cetasika of a bhavanga-citta? ------ N: This pertains to the cittas arising in processes. But of course there is contact, this is a cetasika that assists each citta, no matter what type. But here there is no doorway, no impingement of an object on a doorway. Contact is mental, it is not what we mean by physical contact. H: Elements of this commentarial notion of bhavanga-citta seem problematical on the face of it. Can the notion be well harmonized with the Abhidhamma itself? ------- N: I do not take it to be only a notion of the Co. Anyway, the Visuddhimagga is firmly founded on the Tipitaka. There was a discussion before with Rob M, where one can find other sources on the processes of cittas etc. This is quite another study. Nina. #63152 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 11:22 am Subject: Re: A question about lethargy and indolence - addon pgradinarov > The politically correct answer is Yes. Yes, it is compatible. #63153 From: Lodewijk van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 12:01 pm Subject: Jataka Stories lodewijkvang... Dear James, -======= J.How are you? I have been considering the Jataka Tales, as you mentioned in your last post to me, and I have a question. In each Jataka Tale the bodhisatta (Buddha-to-be) faces a serious challenge of some kind. It seems as if these challenges were almost designed in order for the bodhisatta to develop the Perfections. My question is if you see these challenges faced by the bodhisatta as good kamma or as bad kamma? I was just wondering about your thoughts on this subject. ------------- L . You put me on the spot. I find your question difficult to answer. I think, that the challenges faced by the bodhisatta were vipaka caused by kamma, good or bad? I do not know, but the challenges were certainly conditions for the bodhisatta to develop all the Perfections. It is the same with the challenges in our life; we should see and understand them as an exhortation , further to develop the Perfections. Maybe, Nina will add some further remarks. With warm regards, Lodewijk #63154 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/7/06 2:26:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Plamen), > :Bhavanga-cittas do not experience an object > >through a doorway. > > > ========================= > H: Can you say more about that, Nina? What sort of object is it if > neither visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory, or mental? > If even it is > but a memory, that would make it mental, would it not? > -------- > N: It is the same object as experienced during the last javanacittas > before the dying-consciousness. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I assume you mean it is a replication (in some sense) of the original object, for that original dhamma is long gone. -------------------------------------- It is kamma that conditioned that > > object. Those javanacittas experienced it through any of the six > doors, after that the dying-consciousness arose which has as its > only function being the last citta of a lifespan. The dying- > consciousness experienced the same object as the first citta of the > life that is about to end and as all bhavanga-cittas of that life. > The dying-consciousness is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of > the next life and this has the same object as the last javanacittas > of the previous life. > You posted some time ago a long quote from the Visuddhimagga about > rebirth where the simile of an echo was used. > > Now all bhavangacittas experience that same object, but this kind of > experience is door-freed (dvara-vimutta) and process freed (viithi > vimutta). This way of experiencing is quite different from the way > cittas that arise in processes and experience objects through the > doorways experience an object. ------------------------------------------ Howard: What IS that way of experiencing it? Can anything be said? If not, it sounds more esoteric than something supermundane. ----------------------------------------- > --------- > H: Should the object of a bhavanga-citta be an object of one of these > sorts yet known directly, not via a sense door, what is the role of a > sense door > that distinguishes that object and the knowing of it in the > patisandhi-citta > from "the same" object and knowing of it in a bhavanga-citta? > ----- > N: It is altogether different. ----------------------------------------- Howard: What is altogether different? I see no explanation here. Do the commentaries give nothing more on this? --------------------------------------- > -------- > H: Also, and more > importantly, I think, the Buddha said that contact is the coming > together of > object, sense door, and consciousness. Without the doorway, does that > mean that > there is no phassa as a cetasika of a bhavanga-citta? > ------ > N: This pertains to the cittas arising in processes. But of course > there is contact, this is a cetasika that assists each citta, no > matter what type. But here there is no doorway, no impingement of an > object on a doorway. Contact is mental, it is not what we mean by > physical contact. ------------------------------------- Howard: So, was the Buddha wrong when he said that contact is the coming together of the three? Sometimes it's just two? ----------------------------------- > > H: Elements of this commentarial notion of bhavanga-citta seem > problematical on the face of it. Can the notion be well harmonized > with the Abhidhamma > itself? > ------- > N: I do not take it to be only a notion of the Co. Anyway, the > Visuddhimagga is firmly founded on the Tipitaka. > There was a discussion before with Rob M, where one can find other > sources on the processes of cittas etc. This is quite another study. > Nina. > > ======================= I think I'll just let this subject rest, Nina. But thank you very much for your reply. :-) With metta, Howard #63155 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object pgradinarov Dear Howard, Bhavanga-cittas are experiencing the traces, so to say, the perfume of the object, not the very object as it is grasped through the sense-organs. Of course, it could be argued that it is the sense- organs that experience, not the particular cittas, but since manas is a particular citta, when it is severed from its ties to the external sense-organs, it could be said to experience the subliminal traces in the bhavanga. Although the experiences are of course subconscious in the usual sense of the word. This is how the bhavanga-cittas could be phenomenologically niralambana (objectleess), but nevertheless intending an object (and in this sense salambana) via the vasanas. Kindes regards, Plamen > Howard: What IS that way of experiencing it? Can anything be said? If not, it > sounds more esoteric than something supermundane. > ----------------------------------------- #63156 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object upasaka_howard Hi, Plamen - In a message dated 9/7/06 4:38:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pgradinarov@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Bhavanga-cittas are experiencing the traces, so to say, the perfume > of the object, not the very object as it is grasped through the > sense-organs. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: The "so to say" part is my problem. Abhidhamma is supposedly very precise, but I often see a lack of precision. ---------------------------------------- Of course, it could be argued that it is the sense-> > organs that experience, not the particular cittas, but since manas > is a particular citta, when it is severed from its ties to the > external sense-organs, it could be said to experience the subliminal > traces in the bhavanga. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: But I believe Nina ruled out the mind door as well as the 5-sense doors. ----------------------------------------- Although the experiences are of course > > subconscious in the usual sense of the word. > > This is how the bhavanga-cittas could be phenomenologically > niralambana (objectleess), but nevertheless intending an object (and > in this sense salambana) via the vasanas. > > Kindes regards, > > Plamen ========================= With metta, Howard #63157 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object pgradinarov Dear Howard, In the case with vāsanās, the "so to say" is fairly precise: Vāsita [fr. vāseti2] 1. scented J i.65; ii.235 (su˚); iii.299; v.89; Vism 345. -- 2. [preferably fr. vāseti1=vasati2] established, made to be or live, preserved Mhvs 8, 2. So also in phrase vāsita -- vāsana (adj.) or vāsana -- vāsita one who is impressed with (or has retained) a former impression Sn 1009 (pubba˚, =vāsanāya vāsita -- citta SnA 583); Miln 263 (id.); Vism 185 (+bhāvita -- bhāvana). If taken as vāseti2, then to be trsld as "scented, filled, permeated," but preferably as vāseti1. -- Cp. pari˚. > > P: Bhavanga-cittas are experiencing the traces, so to say, the perfume of the object > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The "so to say" part is my problem. Abhidhamma is supposedly very > precise, but I often see a lack of precision. As for the manas, if defiled, manas is acting as manodvara; when there is no contact with the objects, manas is performing as bhavanga. This is my "educated guess" based on the deconstruction of the Yogacara concepts of klistamanovijnana and alayavijnana. Best regards, Plamen #63158 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Sep 7, 2006 10:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------------------ <. . .> H: > As I understand English, I don't know why one would refer to insight, mundane or not, as practice. Nor would I call knowledge practice, nor call metta practice, nor any other such thing. Doing so treats the word 'practice' as if it had no meaning, as I see the matter. ------------------- I think you are saying practice has meaning only when there is [the concept of] a being that practises. I disagree, and I have no difficulty in understanding that certain dhammas (sati and panna, for example), by performing their functions, can be said to be 'practising.' ----------------------- KH: > > In so far as they are intentional (formal) activities, I would agree; they have no efficacy in their own right. > > H: > So, the intention to associate with the wise, to hear the true Dhamma, and to wisely consider it has no efficacy? ----------------------- I don't know how you arrive at that. I said that formal practices, as mere concepts, had no efficacy. I did not say that intention, a paramattha dhamma, had no efficacy. ------------------------------- H: > Intention is kamma. ------------------------------- So you are talking about cetana. I am glad you made that clear. ------------ H: > Kusala intention is certainly efficacious so far as I know. ------------ Of course! -------------- H: > These particular intentions are most particularly kusala. Of course, if one doesn't act on these good intentions, then they are worthless. -------------- Now it is not so clear that you are talking about cetana. Kusala cetana is never worthless. ----------------------- H: > They are idle desire. ------------------------ You are not talking Abhidhamma at all, are you? :-) You are describing a purely conventional view of the world in which good intentions, in the course of events, can turn out to be bad (and vice versa). --------------------------------- H: > But I think that you are missing the boat in associating ritual with actions based on wholesome intentions. --------------------------------- Each of us thinks the other is missing the boat. To me, actions (cetana cetasikas arising with javana cittas) are either wholesome or unwholesome. There is no grey area in which unwholesome dhammas are nonetheless worthwhile because they are "based on" wholesome intentions. --------------------------- H: > When an activity bears no relation to a desired result, but one still engages in that activity, thinking that magically the result will somehow occur anyway, that is acting ritualistically. --------------------------- Yes, but I would go further. Any activity performed with the intention of influencing (controlling) the flow of dhammas is a ritual activity. ------------------ KH: > > As mere concepts, they are neither kusala nor akusala - they are illusory. Belief in the efficacy of concepts means the same as belief in the efficacy of rituals. > > H: > I haven't a clue as to what you are asserting here. --------------------- Belief that conventionally real activities somehow control the flow of dhammas is the same as belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual. It's the same wrong view. --------------------------------- <. . .> H: > When I'm meditating, I quickly leave most conceptualizing behind. --------------------------------- You make meditation sound like a way of controlling dhammas. But it isn't! ------------ <. . .> H: > What there needs to be *now* is wise association, hearing, considering, and applying. If no efforts are made in this direction now, and there weren't in the past either, perhaps we'll be lucky and stumble onto something useful in the future. (I call this "the dumb luck approach to Dhamma." ;-) ------------- Yes, those are the necessary - urgently required - factors for enlightenment. Just understanding that point (that they are the factors for enlightenment) can be our right practice. We can't *make* understanding arise. That's another thing that urgently needs to be understood. :-) -------------------------- <. . .> H: > Insight leads to release. For sure. But insight isn't practice. It is a cetasika that arises due to conditions that do constitute practice. The cultivation of pa~n~na is complex, and involves cultivation of simpler, preliminary conditions. The more major steps require smaller steps, and the simplest of these, directly achievable, are achievable volitionally (in a way analogous to lifting your finger to type a key). -------------------------- If there is control over one thing there can be control over everything. Why stop at lifting a finger - why not perform an act of dana sila or bhavana? --------------- KH: > > We don't need a Buddha to tell us that being hit by a car has consequences. > > H: > You are contradicting yourself. You just said that concepts do NOT have consequences! --------------- They don't (ultimately), which is all the more reason why we don't need a Buddha to tell us that they do! :-) -------------- H: > Now, the fact is that concepts do have consequences, but only figuratively speaking. --------------- Yes, and we don't need a Buddha to tell us the figuratively real workings of the figuratively real world, do we? ---------------------- H: > It is the actual conditions underlying a concept that actually have the consequences. Being hit by a car, will send us either to a hospital or the morgue. Both the cause and the effect are conventional events. Underlying each of these is a host of complexly interrelated, actual phenomena - namas and rupas. When one of the Buddha's monks followed his instructions and intentionally sat under a tree, with body erect, and attentive to his breath, and then entered the first jhana, that was all concept. But there were realities underlying all that. ------------------------ The Buddha would never have given those, or any other, conventional instructions. He taught that there was no self. When there is no self, there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas - there are no monks, no bodily postures, no trees . . . Certainly, the Buddha's words often seem the same as other teachers' words (instructions), but their meaning is always profoundly different. Ken H #63159 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard (and Plamen), I like to continue our dialogue. Your remarks are a condition to consider more. It is indeed a difficult subject. First some more remarks and a quote. In another post I shall give more additions and go into your remarks. There is the text of the Gradual Sayings: AN I.10 (Book of the Ones, Ch VI, The fingersnap): . The Co.: It is also pure, because it is unsoiled (by defilements); thus luminous. aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi. N: “ by oncoming “(defilements). by those that are not conascent with it, but arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana). The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using the word pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be clear in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-citta." Now I like to quote from Acharn's Survey of Paramattha dhammas where she explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that when one is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does not experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one experiences all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects give rise to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the function of keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast asleep and also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an echo of the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the citta. It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements arise. I quote: < The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no lovingkindness nor compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant.> (end quote). The person who is enlightened, the ariyasaavako, has eradicated anusayas by the development of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path. It is pa~n~naa which knows realities as they are, yathaabhuuta, no other way. Anusayas are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment, and only the arahat is freed from all defilements, he has no more latent tendencies of defilements, no conditions for their arising. The subco: Since the life-continuum is not specifically mentioned, it is indeed not corrupted by defilements since it is by nature not mixed up with those, he said, by including it in figurative language in one sequence (of consciousness) that it was as it were corrupted, corrupted indeed, it was said. N: Now in order to explain that meaning by a simile, he said, “just as, etc.” It is explained that the defilements arise during the javanacittas, not at the moment of bhavangacitta. Figurative language is used here. A simile is used of good parents and teachers who acquire a bad name because of their naughty children or pupils. The parents and teachers are as it were soiled by them. The naughty children are similar to the defilements, and these as it were stain the pure bhavangacitta. (to be continued) Nina. #63160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 1:46 am Subject: Bhavangacitta and object, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard (and Plamen), Op 7-sep-2006, om 21:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I assume you mean it is a replication (in some sense) of the original > object, for that original dhamma is long gone. > -------------------------------------- > N: Like an echo. ------- > N: > Now all bhavangacittas experience that same object, but this > kind of > > experience is door-freed (dvara-vimutta) and process freed (viithi > > vimutta). This way of experiencing is quite different from the way > > cittas that arise in processes and experience objects through the > > doorways experience an object. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > What IS that way of experiencing it? Can anything be said? If not, it > sounds more esoteric than something supermundane. > ----------------------------------------- > N: Supramundane cittas experience nibbaana. Bhavangacitta is not > supramundane, lokuttara. It may help to remember that the bhavangacitta is vipaaka, produced by kamma. When kusala kamma with wisdom produces the rebirth- consciousness, also all bhavangacittas are accompanied by wisdom. And when kusala kamma without wisdom produces the rebirth-consciousness, also all bhavangacittas are without wisdom. The wisdom accompanying the vipaakacitta is not active, it is result, like the reflection of a lookingglass. When we remember that the kamma which conditioned the object of the last javanacittas of the previous life (any object that is experienced through one of the six doors, or a sign of kamma, or a sign of one's future destiny) , it may be easier to understand that the rebirth-consciousness and all bhavangacittas that are the results of the same kamma, experience the same object, but not through a doorway. It is like an echo, experienced during one's whole life. We cannot know this object, only the bhavangacitta knows it. When you think of deep, dreamless sleep it may be easier to understand that there is citta but not any impingement of an object on one of the six doors. There must be citta, otherwise we could not stay alive. And there is no citta without experiencing an object, as you like to say: citta *is* the experiencing. The long stream of cittas from birth to death is uninterrupted. Therefore, all kinds of accumulations of good and bad qualities can be carried on. Then the stream of bhavangacittas is arrested and objects are impinging on the doorways and experienced in processes of cittas. During most processes javanacittas arise, but it all occurs so rapidly, that we usually do not realize that there are javancittas, even now! Such a lot of ignorance. It is usueful to understand more about bhavangacittas and cittas arising in processes. There are bhavangacittas in between the processes. Through insight the characteristic of bhavangacitta can be known. Not its object. When we have more understanding of how cittas operate there will be more detachment form the idea of: I can do it, I do it. > > --------- > > H: Should the object of a bhavanga-citta be an object of one of > these > > sorts yet known directly, not via a sense door, .... > > ----- > > N: It is altogether different. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > What is altogether different? I see no explanation here. Do the > commentaries give nothing more on this? > --------------------------------------- > N: Perhaps it is clearer now? > > -------- > > Howard: > So, was the Buddha wrong when he said that contact is the coming > together of the three? Sometimes it's just two? > ----------------------------------- > N: The sutta you allude to is in the salayatanavagga, the Kindred > Sayings on Sense (S IV), and we have to take into consideration the > context: it is all about cittas arising in processes. Actually we always have to look at the context. The bhavangacitta is called pure, but in another context all cittas are called pandara, pure (See Sarah's old messages). Why is that? Because citta experiences an object and defilements that accompany it are cetasikas. Evenso, in one sutta one aspect is explained, in another sutta another aspect. One aspect cannot be rigidly applied to all other parts of the teachings. Nina. #63161 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object, no 2. pgradinarov Dear Nina, Who with the eye of Wisdom reads and properly understands what you most generously share with us for the benefit of all sentient beings, must attain the fruit of sotapanna, effective immediately. You are indeed a bhaddaka pannaparamitta. Kindest regards, Plamen P.S. The Skt. prajnaparamitra is a happy invention of my wise friend, Dr. Mary Lee. #63162 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 4:21 am Subject: When Slow and Low ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What to Train when Mind is Sluggish, Slow & Low? The Blessed Buddha once explained: On any occasion, Bhikkhus, when the mind is sluggish, slow & low, then it is suitable to develop the Investigation of states Link to Awakening, the Energy Link to Awakening, and the Joy Link to Awakening! Why is it so? Because when the mind is sluggish, slow and low, then it is easy to arouse, incite, stir and stimulate with exactly these states... Imagine, Bhikkhus, a man wants to make a small fire flare up. If he throws dry grass, dry cow-dung, and dry timber into it, blows on it, and does not scatter soil over it, would he be able to make that small fire flare up? Yes indeed, Venerable Sir. Similarly here, on any occasion, when the mind is sluggish, slow & low, then it is time to develop the Investigation of states Link to Awakening, the Energy Link to Awakening, and the Joy Link to Awakening! Why so? Because when the mind is sluggish, slow and low, then it is easy to arouse, incite, stir and stimulate with the qualities of exactly these states... Sources (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 113] 46: Links. 53: Fire.... --------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. Friendship is the Greatest ... Composed for the purpose of Gladdening Good People! http://What-Buddha-Said.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://groups.yahoo.com/group/What_Buddha_Said Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. #63163 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Binara Poya Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni >Since you are north-american this couldn´t be of your concern. 'I am' not north-american, but danish living in ceylon... vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita http://What-Buddha-Said.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://groups.yahoo.com/group/What_Buddha_Said #63164 From: "icarofranca" Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Binara Poya Day ... !!! icarofranca Hi Ven.Samahita! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 'I am' not north-american, but danish living in ceylon... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh! Excusez Moi! Quelle gaucherie de ma part!!! Mettaya and Ilhamdu Lillah Ícaro #63165 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 6:46 am Subject: Re: Proper Apology! bhikkhu_ekamuni >Excusez Moi! Accepted and forgiven, since when any being sees her mistake as a mistake and make proper amends so to prevent repeating the mistake in the future, then this is called Progress in the Noble Ones Teaching! Be Careful! Neglect is fall... vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita http://What-Buddha-Said.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://groups.yahoo.com/group/What_Buddha_Said #63166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, this is the continuation of Kom's post: 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking /exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick your kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. kom (end quote). ***** Nina. #63167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no. 73 nilovg Dear friends, People want to know whether they can ensure a happy rebirth for themselves by controlling the last cittas before the cuti-citta, by inducing them to be kusala. Some people invite monks to chant at the deathbed of a dying person in order to help him to have kusala cittas. However, nobody can be sure that his rebirth will be a happy one, unless he has attained one of the stages of enlightenment. One cannot have power over one's cittas. Can we control our thoughts now, at this moment? Since we cannot do this, how could we control our thoughts at the time shortly before dying? There is no self who can decide about his rebirth in a next life. After the last akusala cittas or kusala cittas in life have fallen away, the cuti-citta arises. The cuti-citta is succeeded by the paìisandhi-citta of the next life. When the paìisandhi-citta arises a new lifespan starts. So long as there is kamma there will be future lives. The paìisandhi-citta performs the function of rebirth or relinking. It ``links'' the past to the present. Since only the first citta of a lifespan performs the function of rebirth there is only one paìisandhi-citta in a life. There is no self who transmigrates from one life to the next life; there are only nåma and rúpa arising and falling away. The present life is different from the past life but there is continuity in so far as the present life is conditioned by the past. Since the paìisandhi-citta succeeds the cuti-citta of the previous life, the accumulated tendencies of past lives go on to the paìisandhi-citta. Thus, inclinations one has in the present life are conditioned by the past. ***** Nina. #63168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 54 nilovg Dear friends, this is a continuation of my letter to Susie: Metta goes out to all beings, it does not choose: this person, but not that person. You ask whether there are moments of thinking with metta. There are all the time moments of thinking about situations, persons, thus the thinking can also be done with metta instead of with akusala. Now you give another good reminder: <...I have some desire to be selective with whom there should be more metta. Yes, I know, just be aware of whatever appears. Tricky, because we are so caught up in desire and only looking for future moments; future understanding and future awareness...Really, the learning can only be done from one point in place and time, here and now. I find that, once again, I am truly at the beginning....> Khun Sujin would say, so, begin again and again. Our life consists of beginning. You then write about the 'humbling effect of understanding': You then continue, saying that there can be wrong practice in a residual form, when we want to be successful, as I mentioned in reference to calm. Is there, not only as regards calm, but also in the development of understanding of nama and rupa, an idea of wanting to have success for ourselves? Alan Driver, when still a monk, used to say: 'what do you want awareness for, to show it to others?' This clinging to success makes us impatient. When there is impatience we can check: this comes from clinging, clinging to success. That is why we find ourselves too good to begin and begin again. You continue: <...This is where I think understanding has a truly humbling effect, because with the growth of understanding, and, can it be said, the 'lessening' of the self, one would become less concerned with the success of self.> ****** Nina. #63169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:39 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear friends, I think if one is busy time and again to know the present, there will be less and less thinking anyway, and less thinking about success in the future. Understanding has a humbling effect, because one really gets to know better the moments of defilements. At first one may think: O, I do not really cling to a self, I understand all the Buddha taught. And then one may find out that there is such an amount of clinging one did not realize before one had. If one thinks that one has not much to learn the situation gets really dangerous. I was quoting to Blanche the practical advice Khun Sujin gave us, and she replied that she finds it just common sense anybody could think of, and she asks: where is the Buddhist flavour? In order words, she misses the typical Buddhist approach in such advice about the situations of daily life. This is an interesting point, and I try to go into it a little more. It is actually again: understanding of citta now, what I just wrote. Is that not the Buddha's teaching? To be more precise: understanding citta as only a conditioned reality, not self. This is the essence of the teachings. This understanding can eventually eradicate defilements. But this understanding can only begin at the present moment. Whether one likes to hear it or not. Perhaps too ordinary? Not fantastic, something out of the ordinary, as you just said? If there is no understanding that each moment is conditioned, that is has arisen already, that all that can be done is trying to understand it, to understand nama as nama and rupa as rupa, we may be choosy about what should be the object of awareness: this reality, not that one, not akusala, that is not a good object of awareness. ****** Nina. #63170 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/8/06 1:52:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ------------------ > <. . .> > H: >As I understand English, I don't know why one would refer to > insight, mundane or not, as practice. Nor would I call knowledge > practice, nor call metta practice, nor any other such thing. Doing so > treats the word 'practice' as if it had no meaning, as I see the matter. > ------------------- > > I think you are saying practice has meaning only when there is [the > concept of] a being that practises. > --------------------------------------- Howard: You think incorrectly here. The meaning I have for practice' in this context is the dictionary meaning of "systematic exercise for proficiency." ---------------------------------------- I disagree, and I have no> > difficulty in understanding that certain dhammas (sati and panna, for > example), by performing their functions, can be said to be 'practising.' --------------------------------------- Howard: What I am using 'practice' for involves intentionally generating a series of conditions for a specific purpose. I am, of course, speaking conventionally. You do so all the the time, Ken. It is not a "fair game" to speak conventionally except when coming to something the idea of which you don't like, and then suddenly switching in part to literal terminology so that the speech becomes odd. You know darn well what practice is. If you want to play a better tennis game, you may take some instruction, you practice your serve, you work on your forehand, you work on your backhand - and so on. That is all, of course, conventional activity, the underlying reality of which has unfathomable complexity, but is strongly characterized by intention and purpose. ------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------- > KH: >>In so far as they are intentional (formal) activities, I would > agree; they have no efficacy in their own right. > >> > > H: > So, the intention to associate with the wise, to hear the true > Dhamma, and to wisely consider it has no efficacy? > ----------------------- > > I don't know how you arrive at that. I said that formal practices, as > mere concepts, had no efficacy. I did not say that intention, a > paramattha dhamma, had no efficacy. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what formal practices are. If they are things that involve being aware of what is going on, and carrying them out intentionally rather than by mere habit or blind stumbling, I strongly favor them! ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > H: >Intention is kamma. > ------------------------------- > > So you are talking about cetana. I am glad you made that clear. -------------------------------------------- Howard: It took you that long! I've been talking continually about cetana again, and again, and again - for a long, long time. --------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > H: >Kusala intention is certainly efficacious so far as I know. > ------------ > > Of course! > > -------------- > H: >These particular intentions are most particularly kusala. Of > course, if one doesn't act on these good intentions, then they are > worthless. > -------------- > > Now it is not so clear that you are talking about cetana. Kusala > cetana is never worthless. --------------------------------------- Howard: The road to hell, Ken. (You know the rest of the statement!) ---------------------------------------- > > ----------------------- > H: >They are idle desire. > ------------------------ > > You are not talking Abhidhamma at all, are you? :-) You are > describing a purely conventional view of the world in which good > intentions, in the course of events, can turn out to be bad (and vice > versa). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, my! I'd better run into hiding, eh? Gosh - not talking Abhidhamma. I've got news for you, Ken - if you think you have other than a conventional view of the world you are sadly deluded. ----------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------- > H: > But I think that you are missing the boat in associating ritual > with actions based on wholesome intentions. > --------------------------------- > > Each of us thinks the other is missing the boat. To me, actions > (cetana cetasikas arising with javana cittas) are either wholesome or > unwholesome. There is no grey area in which unwholesome > dhammas are nonetheless worthwhile because they are "based on" > wholesome intentions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: There are never shades of gray for doctinnaire believers, for people who won't see that there are degrees of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness. ------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------- > H: > When an activity bears no relation to a desired result, but one > still engages in that activity, thinking that magically the result > will somehow occur anyway, that is acting ritualistically. > --------------------------- > > Yes, but I would go further. Any activity performed with the intention > of influencing (controlling) the flow of dhammas is a ritual activity. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that statement is utterly absurd, is outright false, and outright contradicts 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. What you are saying is that actions do not have consequences. It is wrong view! ----------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > KH: >>As mere concepts, they are neither kusala nor akusala - they > are illusory. Belief in the efficacy of concepts means the same as > belief in the efficacy of rituals. > >> > > H: >I haven't a clue as to what you are asserting here. > --------------------- > > Belief that conventionally real activities somehow control the flow of > dhammas is the same as belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual. It's > the same wrong view. -------------------------------------- Howard: Utter nonsense! The belief that the very conventional activity of driving one's car at 100 miles per hour straight into a brick wall will result in one's death is a valid belief. The actions WILL result in the expected end, and if this were one's suicidal intention, it would not constitute belief in the efficacy of rite & ritual. Praying for death would be. Ken, you are using the phrase "rite and ritual" as a cudgel to beat down anything that makes you uneasy. It is an abuse of the Dhamma. ----------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------- > <. . .> > H: >When I'm meditating, I quickly leave most conceptualizing behind. > --------------------------------- > > You make meditation sound like a way of controlling dhammas. But it > isn't! > > ------------ > <. . .> > H: >What there needs to be *now* is wise association, hearing, > considering, and applying. If no efforts are made in this direction > now, and there weren't in the past either, perhaps we'll be lucky and > stumble onto something useful in the future. (I call this "the dumb > luck approach to Dhamma." ;-) > ------------- > > Yes, those are the necessary - urgently required - factors for > enlightenment. Just understanding that point (that they are the > factors for enlightenment) can be our right practice. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Just understanding it is just understanding it. Aversion, laziness, and a host of other defilements, unless overcome, can and usually do vitiate that understanding. --------------------------------------------- > > We can't *make* understanding arise. That's another thing that > urgently needs to be understood. :-) > > -------------------------- > <. . .> > H: >Insight leads to release. For sure. But insight isn't practice. > It is a cetasika that arises due to conditions that do constitute > practice. The cultivation of pa~n~na is complex, and involves > cultivation of simpler, preliminary conditions. The more major steps > require smaller steps, and the simplest of these, directly achievable, > are achievable volitionally (in a way analogous to lifting your finger > to type a key). > -------------------------- > > If there is control over one thing there can be control over > everything. Why stop at lifting a finger - why not perform an act of > dana sila or bhavana? ------------------------------------------- Howard: What is your point? I DO exactly that. ------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > KH: >>We don't need a Buddha to tell us that being hit by a car has > consequences. > >> > > H: >You are contradicting yourself. You just said that concepts do > NOT have consequences! > --------------- > > They don't (ultimately), which is all the more reason why we don't > need a Buddha to tell us that they do! :-) ----------------------------------------- Howard: Argh! ----------------------------------------- > > -------------- > H: >Now, the fact is that concepts do have consequences, but only > figuratively speaking. > --------------- > > Yes, and we don't need a Buddha to tell us the figuratively real > workings of the figuratively real world, do we? > > ---------------------- > H: >It is the actual conditions underlying a concept that actually > have the consequences. Being hit by a car, will send us either to a > hospital or the morgue. Both the cause and the effect are conventional > events. Underlying each of these is a host of complexly interrelated, > actual phenomena - namas and rupas. > When one of the Buddha's monks followed his instructions and > intentionally sat under a tree, with body erect, and attentive to his > breath, and then entered the first jhana, that was all concept. But > there were realities underlying all that. > ------------------------ > > The Buddha would never have given those, or any other, conventional > instructions. > ------------------------------------ Howard: He gave them all the time! You are rewriting the suttas, Ken. -------------------------------------- He taught that there was no self. When there is no self, > > there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas - there are no > monks, no bodily postures, no trees . . . --------------------------------------- Howard: Read what the Buddha said to people, Ken. Read what he actually told them. Literally no monks, but look how he began most of his teachings: "Monks, ..."!! --------------------------------------- > > Certainly, the Buddha's words often seem the same as other teachers' > words (instructions), but their meaning is always profoundly different. ----------------------------------------- Howard: You want to turn them into "Ken-speak". It doesn't fit. ----------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ====================== With metta, Howard #63171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavangacitta and object, no 2. nilovg Dear Plamen, you are very kind, but of course, this is too flattering. We have to be realistic. I have several posts here about the reunion citta. I mostly get your sskr terms, and I like to read them, but the meanings are different in Pali, even though the terms may be the same. Perhaps if you followed my dialogue with Howard, and also my Abhidhamma in Daily life I am posting in small parts, it may be clearer to you what is meant by the pali of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. Just now the subject is patisandhi and soon it will be bhavanga in my series. Nina. Op 8-sep-2006, om 12:07 heeft Plamen Gradinarov het volgende geschreven: > Who with the eye of Wisdom reads and properly understands what you > most generously share with us for the benefit of all sentient beings, > must attain the fruit of sotapanna, effective immediately. #63172 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - One more brief point: You had written: > >If there is control over one thing there can be control over > >everything. Why stop at lifting a finger - why not perform an act of > >dana sila or bhavana? > to which I replied: > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What is your point? I DO exactly that. > ------------------------------------------- > ====================== I also take exception to your assertion "If there is control over one thing there can be control over everything." There is no basis for that conclusion in the slightest. Just saying it doesn't make it so. With metta, Howard #63173 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 9:59 am Subject: 'Strict Middle' or 'Metaphorical Middle' nidive Hi Howard, I recall another sutta where the Buddha talks about the middle way. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html "There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this is an example of the Buddha himself using the term "middle way" in a metaphorical manner. Self-gratification with regard to sensual pleasures is one extreme. Self-mortification with regard to sensual pleasures is another extreme. But I don't see a "strict middle" between these two extremes. Half- gratification, half-mortification? That sounds quite absurd. IMO, I don't think the Buddha himself uses the term "middle way" as a "strict middle", like what you expounded on the 'existence' (existing in and of itself) and 'non-existence' (not existing at all) of conditioned dhammas. Regards, Swee Boon #63174 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Strict Middle' or 'Metaphorical Middle' upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/8/06 1:08:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I recall another sutta where the Buddha talks about the middle way. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html > > "There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one > who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual > pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, > ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: > painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the > middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing > knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to > Unbinding. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think this is an example of the Buddha himself using the term > "middle way" in a metaphorical manner. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. This, BTW, is the more well known sense of "middle way", more than the middle way of the Kaccayangotta Sutta. --------------------------------------------- > > Self-gratification with regard to sensual pleasures is one extreme. > Self-mortification with regard to sensual pleasures is another > extreme. > > But I don't see a "strict middle" between these two extremes. Half- > gratification, half-mortification? That sounds quite absurd. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. -------------------------------------------- > > IMO, I don't think the Buddha himself uses the term "middle way" as a > "strict middle", like what you expounded on the 'existence' (existing > in and of itself) and 'non-existence' (not existing at all) of > conditioned dhammas. --------------------------------------------- Howard: That was not my intention. The middle-way mode of existence is not a mid-point or compromise between nihilistic nonexistence and substantialist self-existence. It is neither of these, and doesn't partake of either, though propensities of people will cause them to see it as being like one or the other of these. -------------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > > ==================== With metta, Howard #63175 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I appreciate this post of yours, Nina. N: "...just common sense anybody could think of, and she asks: where is the Buddhist flavour? In order words, she misses the typical Buddhist approach in such advice about the situations of daily life... Perhaps too ordinary? Not fantastic, something out of the ordinary, as you just said? If there is no understanding that each moment is conditioned, that is has arisen already, that all that can be done is trying to understand it, to understand nama as nama and rupa as rupa, we may be choosy about what should be the object of awareness: this reality, not that one, not akusala, that is not a good object of awareness." I've thought this as well, fresh to coming into contact with the Buddha's teachings as I find myself. The "typical" or stereotypic or histrionic Buddhism seeming to flourish in the west can be misleading. I'm happy its simple. Because its really quite complex. With loving kindness, Scott. #63176 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 4:18 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. philofillet Hi Nina I like coming back to this again > There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical > phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience > anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible > object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. I like hearing Maeve in the India 2005 talk about visiting a place that is known for its physical beauty, but sensing that there's a sameness wherever she is. The sameness, says Acharn Sujin, is visible object. I can relate to what Maeve was talking about, a growing sense of visible object and seeing (rupa and nama) - nothing direct, but I feel a sense of understanding growing - the "flavour" of understanding, the hint of it. For me these days, just reflecting on seeing and visible object, sensing the way that with the arising of visible object there is seeing, and then thinking (in the conventional sense) and then more and more thinking as defilements condition proliferation. Just want to keep soaking in that beginning understanding. All the suttas in SN 35 that get at that - I never get enough of those. I am sensitive about the way I consume media - go on my stretches of avoiding the internet, got rid of the TV last year - but we are all consuming media, all the time, produced by the mind as it proliferates on visible object, sound object, smell object etc. Can't stop it. Don't want to stop it. But how cool to feel more confident about seeing the way it works. So my media policy has moved away from the comuter and the TV to something much more prevalent. I'm going to work my way slowly through your Abhidhamma in Daily Life posts. Phil p.s thanks for your feedback re proximate condition #63177 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 5:32 am Subject: Re: Rob's forum on jhana, no 4. matheesha333 Hi Nina, Thank you for giving all the reasons for not attaining jhana. I'm sure the Buddha would completely agree that it is hopeless and useless persuit. I can only say that those who have enough good kamma to see the light will, and others simply wont, because thousands of lay people have attained jhana and benefited from it and thousands never will. I have no time to answer your posts from Rob's forum point for point even though I would love to. Perhaps it is better for my practice simply to let go of the craving to do so. with metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > this is the continuation of Kom's post: > > 7) The texts say this about Jhana: > a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana > Extremely hard to maintain > c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see > faults in the 5 sensualities. > > 8) Getting more controversial: > a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome > with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. > (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Having just one strong desire > will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas > about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his > Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? > Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the > attainment is becoming less and less. > c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to > attenuate, very substantially, the seeking /exposures to the 5 > sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? > d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers > "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the > "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the > minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana > being the highest peace. > > 9) Really controversial: > a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are > deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and > states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati > for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, > the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or > akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop > Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, > development through compassion (karuna). Pick your kid. When you do > something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because > of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion > you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was > given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you > know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. > Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala > state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. > (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Jhana attainment is not > neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of > Ariyans without Jhana attainments. > c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the > wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some > people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only > become sharper because there are development of panna (about > realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one > might attain via tranquil meditation. > > 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: > Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level > of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). > > I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to > be a institutional discouragement only because: > I) Priority of learning > II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. > III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. > > kom > (end quote). > ***** > Nina. > > #63178 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob's forum on jhana, no 4. nilovg Hi Matheesha, I always appreciate your point of view. It is good to hear different opinions, so that we all can consider more. Is that not always so, no matter what the subject is? It is good to study together and there will always be different opinions. Rob's series is not finished, and next he gives a long article of someone who has a different opinion. However, tomorrow I am busy and from Monday to Friday I am on a trip, so I will continue after my trip with this series. Nina. Op 9-sep-2006, om 14:32 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > I can only say that those who have enough good kamma to see the > light will, and others simply wont, because thousands of lay people > have attained jhana and benefited from it and thousands never will. > > I have no time to answer your posts from Rob's forum point for point > even though I would love to. Perhaps it is better for my practice > simply to let go of the craving to do so. #63179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 6:17 am Subject: eCard from Bangkok jonoabb Hi All Sarah and I are back in Bangkok after a 3-day trip to Kaeng Krachan together with visitors from the US and lurking members Tom and Beverly, lurking member Nina V, members Betty, Num, Sukin and Ivan, and friend Knowing who is a regular at the Saturday discussions in Bangkok. We had several discussions with Ajarn Sujin, were treated to some excellent Thai food, and generally had a very pleasant time. Tomorrow (Sunday) morning we leave Bangkok for Hong Kong. Will write further from there. Jon #63180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi Phil, There is always so much discussion here on ultimate realities and concepts. But it entirely depends on the citta in what world one is. At one moment the object is a concept and we do not have to avoid this, it happens naturally, because of conditions. The next moment citta experiences a nama or rupa. So it all depends on the moment and it changes from moment to moment. We discussed: there is no Nina, there is no Lodewijk, but again, it depends on the moment! No problem here! Thinking of Lodewijk can alternate with awareness of visible object quite naturally. But we do not try not to think of concepts, or to be aware of visible object. Nina. Op 9-sep-2006, om 13:18 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > go on my stretches of > avoiding the internet, got rid of the TV last year - but we are all > consuming media, all the time, produced by the mind as it proliferates > on visible object, sound object, smell object etc. Can't stop it. > Don't > want to stop it. #63181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear Scott, We make things more complicated because of our defilements, especially lobha. I heard this morning a Thai session. Kh Sujin spoke about restraint, samvara : < There is seeing now and we like what we see. There may be ignorance and then there is no restraint. When lobha arises, we cannot change it. We have to 'study' what is real in daily life. As to restraint , *we* cannot restraint. We usually think of restraint, but is there an idea of self who restrains? When akusala such as dosa arises we may see the disadvantage of it and then there can be restraint, but it cannot (yet) be eradicated.> At this Thai session there is the study of Gr. I, 224, the God-life (brahmacariya). It is . Kh Sujin said that one should go into the deep meaning of each word. We read so often about self-restraint, but she reminds us that also now, when there is seeing, we can ask ourselves; is there guarding of the sense-doors or not? In many suttas we read: This is an exhortation to satipatthana in daily life. I find that often when I read such words, I do not go deeply enough into the meaning. I am reminded, it is now. These days I considered more bhavangacittas and cittas arising in processes, and the fact that practically after each moment of seeing or hearing there are javanacittas that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but mostly akusala cittas. I find myself that I often pay lipservice to the anattaness of restraint. We know that all sobhana cetasikas such as sati, right effort, etc. are non-self, but, there is still an underlying idea of self who makes an effort for kusala. Even though we tell ourselves a hundred times that it is not so. I discussed this point with Lodewijk. Nina. Op 9-sep-2006, om 4:15 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > If there is no understanding that each moment is > conditioned, that is has arisen already, that all that can be done is > trying to understand it, to understand nama as nama and rupa as rupa, > we may be choosy about what should be the object of awareness: this > reality, not that one, not akusala, that is not a good object of > awareness." > > I've thought this as well, fresh to coming into contact with the > Buddha's teachings as I find myself. The "typical" or stereotypic or > histrionic Buddhism seeming to flourish in the west can be misleading. > > I'm happy its simple. Because its really quite complex. #63182 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 6:52 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 74 nilovg Dear friends, The paìisandhi-citta is the result of a previous good deed or bad deed committed in the past. The object the paìisandhi-citta experiences is, as we have seen, the same as the object experienced by the last akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arose before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The Visuddhimagga (XVII, 164-168) explains by way of similes that although the present is different from the past there is continuity. The being who is born is not the same as the being of the past life, but it is conditioned by the past. There is ``neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness'', as the Visuddhimagga explains. We read with regard to the paìisandhi- citta: An echo, or its like, supplies The figures here; connectedness By continuity denies Identity and otherness. And here let the illustration of this consciousness be such things as an echo, a light, a seal impression, a looking glass image, for the fact of its not coming here from the previous becoming and for the fact that it arises owing to causes that are included in past becomings. For just as an echo, a light, a seal impression, and a shadow, have respectively sound, etc., as their cause and come into being without going elsewhere, so also this consciousness. And with the stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from milk. And so too with all causally arisen things... So neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness should be assumed here. One is glad to be born if one does not realize that birth is the result of kamma and that one will go forth in the cycle of birth and death so long as there is kamma. Not seeing the dangers of birth is ignorance. At this moment we are in the human plane of existence but so long as we have not attained any stage of enlightenment we cannot be sure that there will not be rebirth in one of the woeful planes. We all have performed both akusala kamma and kusala kamma in different lives. Who knows which of those deeds will produce the paìisandhi-citta of the next life, even if we continue doing good deeds? Some people think that birth in a heavenly plane is desirable, but they do not realize that life in a heavenly plane does not last and that, after a lifespan in heaven is over, an ill deed previously performed could produce a paìisandhi-citta in a woeful plane. ***** Nina. #63183 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 7:11 am Subject: Re: 'Strict Middle' or 'Metaphorical Middle' nidive Hi Howard, > That was not my intention. The middle-way mode of existence is not > a mid-point or compromise between nihilistic nonexistence and > substantialist self-existence. It is neither of these, and doesn't > partake of either, though propensities of people will cause them to > see it as being like one or the other of these. Incidentally, I found one sutta that describes quite perfectly the annihilationist view that I once hold on to. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Thinking in this way, the thought "everything doesn't exist" occurred to me. (Looking at it now, it was so silly!) This annihilationist view is a world of difference from "final ceasing altogether". But of course, you may disagree with me on this which is fine. An interesting point to note in the same sutta is that even if one does not hold onto a self-identification view (which most of us on DSG don't), it doesn't mean that one has broken through to the Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to- no-conclusion is a fabrication. --------------------------------------------------------------------- 'True Dhamma' of course is subjective to each person's interpretation. But there must be only one True Dhamma taught by the Buddha. It is like a complex mathematical function that needs all the correct input parameters to produce the correct result. Any deviation in the input parameters will veer one completely off course. Trial and error is a very useful technique. Afterall, didn't the Buddha achieve the right self-awakening through repeated trial and errors? Regards, Swee Boon #63184 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:37 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. philofillet Hi Nina . > At one moment the object is a concept and we do not have to avoid > this, it happens naturally, because of conditions. >The next moment > citta experiences a nama or rupa. I think this is the only difference between dreaming when we are asleep and what we "see" (actually thinking most of the time) in daily life. When we are awake, there are moments of citta experiencing nama or rupa interspersed amoung all the thinking. > So it all depends on the moment and it changes from moment to moment. > We discussed: there is no Nina, there is no Lodewijk, but again, it > depends on the moment! No problem here! Thinking of Lodewijk can > alternate with awareness of visible object quite naturally. But we do > not try not to think of concepts, or to be aware of visible object. I will comment on this below I wrote: > > go on my stretches of > > avoiding the internet, got rid of the TV last year - but we are all > > consuming media, all the time, produced by the mind as it proliferates > > on visible object, sound object, smell object etc. Can't stop it. > > Don't > > want to stop it. Today in a coffee shop I thought about the "don't want to stop it" I wrote, and thought it was too apathetic. As Buddhists, our gratitude must surely condition aspirations. But they had best be momentary and passing, otherwise we are playing the self-help, self- realization Dhamma game, which is so popular in the west. (i.e aspiring consciously or not to become a more peaceful, kinder person, etc. It makes people happy, and less harmful to others, so it's not a bad thing. just not the true path.) This is what I wrote in my notebook in the coffee shop: "I wrote ' I don't want to stop it' - better to say 'there are moments of dropping papanca (mental proliferation) that reflect moments of right understanding (panna) wanting to stop it.' That is samvega, that is the turban on fire. If we think that samvega is something that can or should be maintained, like the desire to get in shape or the desire to be a nicer person, we are fooling oursleves. The wanting-to-stop-it must arise due to conditions, it is anatta - trying to control it is just another way added to the countless ways we choose unwittingly to accumulate lobha." Phil #63185 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 9, 2006 10:56 pm Subject: When Excited and Alert ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What to Train when Mind is High and Alert? The Blessed Buddha once explained: On any occasion, Bhikkhus, when mind is excited and high, then it is time for training the Tranquillity Link to Awakening, the Concentration Link to Awakening, and the Equanimity Link to Awakening. Why is it so? Because when the mind is excited and high, Bhikkhus, then it is easy to calm it down with exactly those mental states... Imagine, Bhikkhus, a man wants to extinguish a great fire. If he throws wet grass, wet cow-dung, wet timber into it, sprays it with water, and scatters soil over it, would he be able to extinguish that great bonfire? Yes, Venerable Sir. Even so here, Bhikkhus, on any occasion when the mind is excited and high, then it is convenient to train & develop the Tranquillity Link to Awakening, the Concentration Link to Awakening, & the Equanimity Link to Awakening. Why is it so? Because when the mind is excited and high, Bhikkhus, then it is easy to calm it down & still it with the qualities of exactly those states! Awareness, however, Bhikkhus, I tell you, is always useful & good to train! Sources (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 114-5] 46: Links. 53: Fire.... Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63186 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:14 am Subject: Re: When Excited and Alert ... !!! icarofranca Hi Ven. Samahita! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > What to Train when Mind is High and Alert? ------------------------------------------------------------------- A very good remind, Bhante! The interested reader can perceive in this Samyutta Nikaya´s the famous "acting by contraries" doctrine, very fond of many Mahayana Schools. However, that hasn´t the meaning of justification of every and each one Mahayana school, you see... I won´t spread myself in commentaries about this or that branch of favourite studies on these schools, mainly in Bharata (in my opinion many of these are the quintessence of empty rethorics...) - I only want to point out the right approach of Theravada Masters on this question! Best regards and good readings! Keep Boostin´! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Blessed Buddha once explained: > On any occasion, Bhikkhus, when mind is excited and high, then it is time > for training the Tranquillity Link to Awakening, the Concentration Link > to Awakening, and the Equanimity Link to Awakening. Why is it so? > Because when the mind is excited and high, Bhikkhus, then it is easy to > calm it down with exactly those mental states... > Imagine, Bhikkhus, a man wants to extinguish a great fire. If he throws > wet grass, wet cow-dung, wet timber into it, sprays it with water, and > scatters soil over it, would he be able to extinguish that great bonfire? > Yes, Venerable Sir. > Even so here, Bhikkhus, on any occasion when the mind is excited and high, > then it is convenient to train & develop the Tranquillity Link to Awakening, > the Concentration Link to Awakening, & the Equanimity Link to Awakening. > Why is it so? Because when the mind is excited and high, Bhikkhus, then it > is easy to calm it down & still it with the qualities of exactly those states! > Awareness, however, Bhikkhus, I tell you, is always useful & good to train! > > Sources (edited extract): > The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. > Book [V: 114-5] 46: Links. 53: Fire.... > > > --------------------- > Composed for the purpose of Gladdening Good People! ----------- Buddhaghosa´s lessons will only do it good, Bhante! Mettaya and Ilhamdu lillah! Ícaro #63187 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, With restraint as object you consider its "anatta-ness." N: "We make things more complicated because of our defilements, especially lobha..." Yes. Things, I think, as they arise, are complex and intricate. Maybe the presence of the defilements gives rise to the perception that there are complications - the tendency towards self-making, clinging, ignorance, are the complications. N: "I find myself that I often pay lipservice to the anattaness of restraint. We know that all sobhana cetasikas such as sati, right effort, etc. are non-self, but, there is still an underlying idea of self who makes an effort for kusala. Even though we tell ourselves a hundred times that it is not so." I find this difficult, too. Lately I've wondered about that which arises now. Sometimes it becomes noticed, ever so briefly. Its so varied. The objects vary. The states of mind vary. It seems that if, say, effort is being made then effort has arisen. Certain of the mental factors seem primed for being mistaken for self: energy, effort and the like. If I find myself doing something, studying the Dhamma for example, then this effort has arisen. It is by rote that I think that I wanted to study and chose to start and am doing it. Given the "anatta-ness" of dhammas, it is even more remarkable to notice when sobhana mental factors arise - since there is no one to make them happen. I hope (and what is this arising?) that sati, right effort, etc can arise. Sincerely, Scott. #63188 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/10/06 10:30:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Nina, > > With restraint as object you consider its "anatta-ness." > > N: "We make things more complicated because of our defilements, > especially lobha..." > > Yes. Things, I think, as they arise, are complex and intricate. Maybe > the presence of the defilements gives rise to the perception that > there are complications - the tendency towards self-making, clinging, > ignorance, are the complications. > > N: "I find myself that I often pay lipservice to the anattaness of > restraint. We know that all sobhana cetasikas such as sati, right > effort, etc. are non-self, but, there is still an underlying idea of > self who makes an effort for kusala. Even though we tell ourselves a > hundred times that it is not so." > > I find this difficult, too. Lately I've wondered about that which > arises now. Sometimes it becomes noticed, ever so briefly. Its so > varied. The objects vary. The states of mind vary. It seems that if, > say, effort is being made then effort has arisen. Certain of the > mental factors seem primed for being mistaken for self: energy, > effort and the like. If I find myself doing something, studying the > Dhamma for example, then this effort has arisen. It is by rote that I > think that I wanted to study and chose to start and am doing it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Scott, you quote Nina saying "I find myself that I often pay lipservice to the anattaness of restraint. We know that all sobhana cetasikas such as sati, right effort, etc. are non-self, but, there is still an underlying idea of self who makes an effort for kusala. Even though we tell ourselves a hundred times that it is not so." We all pay such lipservice, and we do tell ourselves again and again that all dhammas ars impersonal and (in my telling) void of own-being, and yet we veiw these dhammas wrongly. I do think that intellectually understanding that all dhammas are anatta, and repeatedly reminding ourselves of this is very important. But mostly, I believe, it is crucial that we examine dhammas as they arise (as best we can - and I do believe that our ability to do that can be enhanced by cultivation). Dhammas *are* dukkha, anicca, and anatta, and "looking" at them properly can reveal this to us. That is practice, IMO. -------------------------------------------------- > > Given the "anatta-ness" of dhammas, it is even more remarkable to > notice when sobhana mental factors arise - since there is no one to > make them happen. I hope (and what is this arising?) that sati, right > effort, etc can arise. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ========================= With metta, Howard #63189 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Howard: "...We all pay such lipservice, and we do tell ourselves again and again that all dhammas ars impersonal and (in my telling) void of own-being, and yet we veiw these dhammas wrongly. I do think that intellectually understanding that all dhammas are anatta, and repeatedly reminding ourselves of this is very important. But mostly, I believe, it is crucial that we examine dhammas as they arise (as best we can - and I do believe that our ability to do that can be enhanced by cultivation). Dhammas *are* dukkha, anicca, and anatta, and "looking" at them properly can reveal this to us. That is practice, IMO." Yeah, Howard, this makes sense I think. The intellectual understanding is conceptually sort of like an ideational boundary delimiting the space and a naming of the contents - this is what exists, this is how it is, etc. When the flow becomes apparent - not thinking about it - when the dhammas become apparent, that's what it is. Maybe cultivation, and I like this metaphor, is just the noticing of the arising and falling away of dhammas and their characteristics over and over again; and "one is cultivating" because the noticing keeps happening. With loving kindness, Scott. #63190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:15 am Subject: re Abh. 1, dreams nilovg Hi Phil, Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. > At one moment the object is a concept and we do not have to avoid > this, it happens naturally, because of conditions. >The next moment > citta experiences a nama or rupa. I think this is the only difference between dreaming when we are asleep and what we "see" (actually thinking most of the time) in daily life. When we are awake, there are moments of citta experiencing nama or rupa interspersed amoung all the thinking. ------- N: I take this with me to discuss with Lodewijk on our trip tomorrow. We had a dream of a concert today and tomorrow we take a boat to go to an island to the north of Holland, a dream of an island, no cars. I enjoy dreams and concepts, it is my natural daily life. Good stuff to discuss, Nina. Today in a coffee shop I thought about the "don't want to stop it" I wrote, and thought it was too apathetic. As Buddhists, our gratitude must surely condition aspirations. But they had best be momentary and passing, otherwise we are playing the self-help, self- realization Dhamma game, which is so popular in the west. (i.e aspiring consciously or not to become a more peaceful, kinder person, etc. It makes people happy, and less harmful to others, so it's not a bad thing. just not the true path.) This is what I wrote in my notebook in the coffee shop: "I wrote ' I don't want to stop it' - better to say 'there are moments of dropping papanca (mental proliferation) that reflect moments of right understanding (panna) wanting to stop it.' That is samvega, that is the turban on fire. If we think that samvega is something that can or should be maintained, like the desire to get in shape or the desire to be a nicer person, we are fooling oursleves. The wanting-to-stop-it must arise due to conditions, it is anatta - trying to control it is just another way added to the countless ways we choose unwittingly to accumulate lobha." Phil #63191 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 9/10/06 12:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Maybe cultivation, and I like this metaphor, is just the noticing of > the arising and falling away of dhammas and their characteristics over > and over again; and "one is cultivating" because the noticing keeps > happening. > ====================== Yes, I agree with that. The main aspect of practice or cultivation is doing (or attempting to do) the very thing that one aims at mastering. Taking a common, very mundane example: Practice to be a better pianist involves playing the piano. Analogously, cultivation of attention, mindfulness, and so on, involves being attentive, mindful, and so on, as best one can - and practice makes perfect. There is more, though, to practice, I think. To master a skill, a martial art for example, in addition to practicing what goes into that skill itself, there are supports that can usefully be developed such as, in the case of martial arts, strength training, good nutrition, getting adequate sleep, and so on. As I see it, for the dhamma samatha bhavana falls under the category of support. (In my case, I like to combine samatha bhavana and vipasssana bhavana.) With metta, Howard #63192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear Scott, It helps to understand more about all the many conditions necessary for the sobhana cetasikas, including confidence and listening in the past. It is understandable that one hopes for the arising of sati, but, as Kh Sujin often reminds us, expectation is counteractive. When we hope, then the case is hopeless! There is more to say, but I have to leave it at this now. Nina. Op 10-sep-2006, om 16:29 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Given the "anatta-ness" of dhammas, it is even more remarkable to > notice when sobhana mental factors arise - since there is no one to > make them happen. I hope (and what is this arising?) that sati, right > effort, etc can arise. > #63193 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 9/10/06 2:36:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Scott, > It helps to understand more about all the many conditions necessary > for the sobhana cetasikas, including confidence and listening in the > past. It is understandable that one hopes for the arising of sati, > but, as Kh Sujin often reminds us, expectation is counteractive. When > we hope, then the case is hopeless! ------------------------------------------ Howard: A very good statement, IMO! And not only does hoping for favorable results sabotage the cultivation, but it also is, itself, a primary source of suffering. As for expectation of good results, the only thing more counterproductive, I find, is expectation of lack of good results. ;-) Good results will occur when the appropriate conditions are in place, but all that is appropriate and what & when it all will be in place is pointless guesswork for us. Expectation of good results smacks of desire and short-circuits the process, and expectation of poor results or no results at all merely demoralizes and subverts practice. What I advocate: Letting go of all expectations, just "keep on keeping on". Not doing what needs to be done, will lead nowhere. Doing what needs to be done, matter-of-factly, with as little sense of a "doer" as possible, and without hope or expectation, is what is called for, and then, que sera, sera; i.e., conditions will determine outcomes. ----------------------------------------------- > There is more to say, but I have to leave it at this now. > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard #63194 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...It is understandable that one hopes for the arising of sati, but, as Kh Sujin often reminds us, expectation is counteractive. When we hope, then the case is hopeless! There is more to say, but I have to leave it at this now." I'd like to learn more of this. Let's say, as it seemed, that the thought, "I hope for the arising of sati," for example, just arose, was expressed then fell away. How might this make the case hopeless? Is this merely subtle self? Is "expectation" a cetasika or just thinking? I suppose wrong view and ignorance could condition the thought "I hope..." With loving kindness, Scott. #63195 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Howard (Nina), I like this discussion. Howard: "...And not only does hoping for favorable results sabotage the cultivation, but it also is, itself, a primary source of suffering." How would the brief moment of hope I expressed "sabotage" cultivation? H: "As for expectation of good results, the only thing more counterproductive, I find, is expectation of lack of good results. ;-) Good results will occur when the appropriate conditions are in place, but all that is appropriate and what & when it all will be in place is pointless guesswork for us." I agree that it is only a function of conditions. So too, then, would have been the moment of hope I am focusing on. What might this condition? I'm not yet sure how such an arising can condition the below necessarily. H: "Expectation of good results smacks of desire and short-circuits the process, and expectation of poor results or no results at all merely demoralizes and subverts practice." Again, I understand the above in principle. I suppose this is of the nature of a paradox but such things can be taken too far. H: "What I advocate: Letting go of all expectations, just "keep on keeping on". Not doing what needs to be done, will lead nowhere. Doing what needs to be done, matter-of-factly, with as little sense of a "doer" as possible, and without hope or expectation, is what is called for, and then, que sera, sera; i.e., conditions will determine outcomes. How is what you so reasonably advocate above any different, in the end, from expressing a hope (such as the earlier expression in question)? Again I do see it the way you do but then "hoping" and "letting-go-of-all-expectations" are both in the same class, aren't they? Maybe I can say that my hoping as I did arose, was conditioned, and will serve as condition for something else. I'm looking forward to reading more of what you (and Nina) have to say on this. With loving kindness, Scott. #63196 From: Daniel Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:41 pm Subject: Art sbhtkk Hi all, As far as I remember, monks are prohibited from music and art. Does it mean that for laymen it is also "more spiritual" to avoid music and art? Perhaps because they evoke very strong emotions? This is very very sad for me if so, because I like art very much, I like watching it, and even more, I like writing, doing small things though I don't do it much. It is a pity if that actually interferes with one's spiritual path. You know, I trust the Buddha to much so I wouldn't follow his advice...Even though people here told me that the attitude in Buddhism is different, frankly, I don't understand why. Isn't buddha enlightened, and therefore knows what is good for us better than ourselves? Yours, Daniel #63197 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/10/06 3:49:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Nina, > > N: "...It is understandable that one hopes for the arising of sati, > but, as Kh Sujin often reminds us, expectation is counteractive. When > we hope, then the case is hopeless! There is more to say, but I have > to leave it at this now." > > I'd like to learn more of this. Let's say, as it seemed, that the > thought, "I hope for the arising of sati," for example, just arose, > was expressed then fell away. How might this make the case hopeless? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Inasmuch as I "endorsed" that statement, I'd like to give my own reply to this important question of yours. Looking at it one way, I consider the sentence to be hyperbole. Of course some occasional hoping doesn't render the matter hopeless, for then there would be no possibility of escape for any of us! And there *is* that possibility. The Buddha wan't playing a con game with us. What I do believe is true is that a consistent pattern of hoping is a *major* obstacle. But more than that: At *all* times, wanting results "too strongly", even quite briefly, is detrimental. I think for example of playing tennis: When I play with keen attention, but with "self" and desire out of the way, the play is better, smoother, and easier - more effective. But the sure way for me to miss a good opportunity, say for smashing the ball when it has been lobbed over the net, is to be over eager, to try too hard, with too much eager desire mixed in. When I play, I've developed the habit of reminding myself "Easy! Easy!" It actually works at times! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- > > Is this merely subtle self? Is "expectation" a cetasika or just > thinking? I suppose wrong view and ignorance could condition the > thought "I hope..." > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > ======================== With metta, Howard #63198 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. upasaka_howard Hi again, Scott - In a message dated 9/10/06 4:05:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard (Nina), > > I like this discussion. > > Howard: "...And not only does hoping for favorable results sabotage > the cultivation, but it also is, itself, a primary source of suffering." > > How would the brief moment of hope I expressed "sabotage" cultivation? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Please see my last post on this matter. ---------------------------------------- > > H: "As for expectation of good results, the only thing more > counterproductive, I find, is expectation of lack of good results. ;-) > Good results will occur when the appropriate conditions are in place, > but all that is appropriate and what &when it all will be in place is > pointless guesswork for us." > > I agree that it is only a function of conditions. So too, then, would > have been the moment of hope I am focusing on. What might this > condition? I'm not yet sure how such an arising can condition the > below necessarily. > > H: "Expectation of good results smacks of desire and short-circuits > the process, and expectation of poor results or no results at all > merely demoralizes and subverts practice." > > Again, I understand the above in principle. I suppose this is of the > nature of a paradox but such things can be taken too far. ---------------------------------------- Howard: There is an element of paradox involved. We need to live with paradox. We need to embrace paradox. --------------------------------------- > > H: "What I advocate: Letting go of all expectations, just "keep on > keeping on". Not doing what needs to be done, will lead nowhere. Doing > what needs to be done, matter-of-factly, with as little sense of a > "doer" as possible, and without hope or expectation, is what is called > for, and then, que sera, sera; i.e., conditions will determine outcomes. > > How is what you so reasonably advocate above any different, in the > end, from expressing a hope (such as the earlier expression in > question)? Again I do see it the way you do but then "hoping" and > "letting-go-of-all-expectations" are both in the same class, aren't they? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Hoping *does* arise. We cannot usefully just say "Don't do it"! LOL! But there are degrees to things. And there is practice that can lessen our hoping and our craving, and that can get "self" out of the way. Also, "hoping" in the sense of a (relatively) selfless chanda that simply sees certain states as useful, for the good, and worthy of attaining is not harmful, but is, in fact, critically important. And there *is* paradox: There is wu-wei, a non-doing doing that helps achieve useful states that are known to be useful. In steps, that non-doing doing can be approached. It is possible. The key, I believe, is a relentless practice of watchfulness, of mindfulness. ----------------------------------------------- > > Maybe I can say that my hoping as I did arose, was conditioned, and > will serve as condition for something else. I'm looking forward to > reading more of what you (and Nina) have to say on this. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I've been saying too much. I've butted in. I will step back and let Nina (and others) speak. --------------------------------------------- > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > ====================== With metta, Howard #63199 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Art lbidd2 Hi Daniel, I don't know what the rules for monks and nuns are but virtuous consciousnesses are called beautiful (sobhana). Also, the color kasinas used as objects of jhana are meant to be beautiful. Mudita (appreciative joy) is a beautiful cetasika that appreciates the good qualities of others. Also there is piti (zest or rapture). This can be either kusala or akusala and is the proximate cause for samadhi: CMA p.57: "Piti, derived from the verb piinayati meaning "to refresh," may be explained as delight or pleasurable interest in the object. The term is often translated as rapture, a rendering which fits its role as a jhana factor but may not be wide enough to cover all its nuances. The commentators distinguish five grades of piti that arise when developing concentration: minor zest, momentary zest, showering zest, uplifting zest, and pervading zest. Minor zest is able to raise the hairs on the body. Momentary zest is like flashes of lightening. Showering zest breaks over the body again and again like waves on the sea shore. Uplifting zest can cause the body to levitate. And pervading zest pervades the whole body as an inundation fills a cavern. The latter is identified as the piti present in jhana. As a factor of jhana piti inhibits the hindrance of ill will (vyaapaada)." L: It should be remembered that piti can also accompany lust (lobha) and in either case is impermanent and not me or mine. Larry